It is a sad state of things when these things have to be learned at school, or at private courses. This used to be learned at people's own homes. But, of course, how can a child learn from parents what parents don't know themselves.
Chivalry should be applied in a gender neutral way and, as another reader noted, is not so much about opening the door or giving your seat to a woman, but to anyone who needs it more than you do, regardless of gender.
More than knowing which fork to use for fish and which one for salad (etiquette), children these days are in urgent need of good manners, starting by saying please and thank you, but also taking small bites when eating (I have seen an eight year old boy chomp a hot-dog in two bites; he reminded me more of a monkey than of a kid), chewing slowly and silently, not talking with food on their mouths, and the list goes on and one. Parents should not expect schools or private classes to take over this duty of their, provided they know what to teach, of course.
Chivalry should be applied in a gender neutral way and, as another reader noted, is not so much about opening the door or giving your seat to a woman, but to anyone who needs it more than you do, regardless of gender.
More than knowing which fork to use for fish and which one for salad (etiquette), children these days are in urgent need of good manners, starting by saying please and thank you, but also taking small bites when eating (I have seen an eight year old boy chomp a hot-dog in two bites; he reminded me more of a monkey than of a kid), chewing slowly and silently, not talking with food on their mouths, and the list goes on and one. Parents should not expect schools or private classes to take over this duty of their, provided they know what to teach, of course.
2
Nice to see these efforts are being made. My program, as was the one for most of my contemporaries, was Mom and Dad. Social amenities such as thanking people and doing a good turn for someone in need was part of growing up Respect for one's elders and people in positions of authority IE Teachers was an absolute. In addition, my Mom taught me to acknowledge people in a pleasant way,, this applied to people one encountered in passing on the street, providing services when buying something, etc. As I grew up I realized these very basic lessons contribute to becoming a self actualized human being.
5
One of the things I found interesting as my children grew was that when they were very young, they copied the manners that my husband and I demonstrated daily. I remember that my oldest saying "excuse me" to a chair when he bumped into it. And then when they grew older, their good manners dropped from them (like a cape from their shoulders!) and we had to teach them proper manners all over again. It was just the same with grammar: they used proper grammar as soon as they learned to speak in sentences, and then had to learn it over again when they reached school age.
3
Using public transportation encourages good manners, for you must learn to wait for the bus or train, and learn that it won't wait for you regardless of your needs. You are not the center of the universe on public transportation. Sometimes you need to let others go first, or even give up your seat. "Road rage" arises (at least in part) from our belief that we alone are "in charge" and others should give way to us. Public transportation requires civility and a sense of community - or it should.
10
I am an old woman and was about to open the door to a business when a young boy of about nine rushed u and opened the door for me. I thanked him but as I turned away I heard the father say to him, in a very nasty tone, "What is the matter with you? Now that old woman will get in front of us in the line. YOu are an idiot." I was horrified but didn't say anything. About 10 minutes later, I was done checking out and saw the father and boy in the line behind me. I walked up to the father and said loud enough for the boy to hear, "I want to commend you. Your son opened a door for me earlier and there are not many parents these days who teach their children to be so polite and caring. You must be very proud of him." I walked off, hoping that the child and father would each get the message I was trying to give.
31
My child says please and thank you and never leaves a party without seeking out and finding the host and/or hostess and thank them and behaves in a restaurant. I spent years almost unconsciously instructing with a running litany of, say please, say thank you, hold the door, let's not talk about that now etc. I got to the point that I did not even realize that I was doing this when I did it to a co-workers kid - hold the door and say after you, please and got a dirty look for it. Point being - if you want a kids with manners - its work - but worth it.
8
I think this article could use some historical perspective. By any empirical accounting, we live in a golden age of politeness, empathy, and interpersonal consideration relative to almost any epoch of the past, including the recent past. The murder rate is unfathomably low relative to that of previous centuries. People sneer at "PC culture", but it represents precisely the ideal of a world where everyone is courteous and thoughtful towards one another. In our grandparents' day, marital rape was not against the law in any state; we should not take our cues on gender relations from that benighted era, let alone Medieval Europe, which was much more Game of Thrones than King Arthur.
Politeness should know no gender. Not everyone fits or appears to fit neatly into the categories "male" and "female", and treating people respectfully shouldn't be contingent on that. And history should teach us that this narrow idea of womanhood is nowhere near as respectful as it claims – men brought up this way can be vicious to women who don't match their perception of what it means to be "ladylike", and many women are or were denied even the possibility of being seen as "ladylike" – consider the words of Sojourner Truth. Teaching kids to be polite is good, but we should be under no illusions that it is at all "old-fashioned".
Politeness should know no gender. Not everyone fits or appears to fit neatly into the categories "male" and "female", and treating people respectfully shouldn't be contingent on that. And history should teach us that this narrow idea of womanhood is nowhere near as respectful as it claims – men brought up this way can be vicious to women who don't match their perception of what it means to be "ladylike", and many women are or were denied even the possibility of being seen as "ladylike" – consider the words of Sojourner Truth. Teaching kids to be polite is good, but we should be under no illusions that it is at all "old-fashioned".
10
My very favorite pastime is listening to people order today, whether it be in a store, restaurant, supermarket, Starbucks or movie theater. Everyone says, "yeah gimmie". And yet how ironic these are the exact same adults who were taught as children to say, "May I please have".
If you so much as ever uttered "yeah gimmie" growing up, you either got slapped and or a look from your parents followed by, "WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY" and immediately corrected yourself. And yet, these are now the exact same people doing the same.
For years I've wanted to design and sell signs that read: DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOUR MOTHER SLAPPED YOU FOR SAYING "YEAH GIMMIE" INSTEAD OF "MAY I PLEASE HAVE" that every merchant can display in their place of business.
If you so much as ever uttered "yeah gimmie" growing up, you either got slapped and or a look from your parents followed by, "WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY" and immediately corrected yourself. And yet, these are now the exact same people doing the same.
For years I've wanted to design and sell signs that read: DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOUR MOTHER SLAPPED YOU FOR SAYING "YEAH GIMMIE" INSTEAD OF "MAY I PLEASE HAVE" that every merchant can display in their place of business.
4
Good manners are all about learning to cede central place in the universe to the people around you once in a while. Rude children? Look at their parents.
10
Was shocked when five year old on the bullet train in Japan ( next stop was to be forty minutes later) got up without being asked to make seat for my elderly mother
14
Interesting since no college student will give up their bus seat for my pregnant wife
14
We, the grandparents, hold Sunday dinners at our house where we all, grandchildren, their parents, their grandparents, and a great grandmother are expected to use good manners at the table. We have done it for several years and the 7 and 9 year old are doing well. As for opening doors, I am a retirement aged woman and I will hold the door for someone coming behind me as a courtesy. It doesn't make any difference as to the sex of the individual. I also say thank you to anyone who holds the door for me.
11
A couple of the most profound differences in culture/ manners happened when I visited my home town in southwestern Virginia; I was part of a funeral procession for a relative, an ordinary mortal but beloved my me; there was a police escort and as we traveled down the streets, every car, ragged pickup truck or scooter etc. pulled over to the side to allow the stream of cars to pass and this is done regardless of the color of the group.
Another really nice gesture often practiced is that a nod or brief greeting and acknowledgement of the presence of another person when walking pass on the street but alas, this custom is fading because of expanding population.
Another really nice gesture often practiced is that a nod or brief greeting and acknowledgement of the presence of another person when walking pass on the street but alas, this custom is fading because of expanding population.
8
Yes! In 2012 I went to my grandmother's funeral in Coshocton OH and during the 10 mile drive to the cemetery in Warsaw almost every car pulled over out of respect. I had never heard of that before and was very touched.
3
I wonder if these courses, that are in fact about respecting others, turn a light on their young brains and they see, like adults don't, that texting and driving is disrespectful.
4
So what is the right way to butter bread, anyway? I was taught by my great-grandmother that I should 1. always put the butter on my plate first before beginning to use it, and 2. always butter parts of the bread bit by bit, not the whole thing at once. I do it, but almost never do I see other people doing it -- I had started to think it was completely obsolete. Did other people learn this, too?
14
your grandma was right
5
Of course people still do that. just because the people that you are dining with were not properly instructed doesn't mean that it is not correct. I tought our daughters this, and they leaned the same in weekend etiquette workshops as children. One daughter's university even had to hold an etiquette workshop for the Student Ambassadors who would fundraising attend events to meet with alumni. Some of these young adults had to be taught how to have a firm handshake and how to eat in polite company because no-one had given them a clue.
1
Dear CS,
Your great grandmother was right - breakingn off a piece of the dinner roll ( for about two bites), then applying butter with the butter knife is the correct way. This is also done for dipping the bread into olive oil. Thank goodness for grandmothers!
Your great grandmother was right - breakingn off a piece of the dinner roll ( for about two bites), then applying butter with the butter knife is the correct way. This is also done for dipping the bread into olive oil. Thank goodness for grandmothers!
2
Manners and courtesy instruction in our household was so successful our daughter even said please, thank you, and excuse me to the dog. Oddly, while that's been a few years, I find myself doing the same to the cat. Must be one of those ingrained things.
2
I'm 80 and my dogs are 2 and 4 but if I accidentally step on one of their feet or bump into them so it might hurt, I say, "Sorry." I believe they tell by my tone of voice that I never intended to hurt them. They care that I wasn't disciplining them for some slight.
2
While I understand the point that many commentators are making that manners should be taught at home, I have also observed that kids often downplay what their parents say but will pay attention to other adults.
Think about it - your Dad keeps telling you to take your elbows off the table and you don't take it too seriously. But if another adult tells you that - yikes!
Think about it - your Dad keeps telling you to take your elbows off the table and you don't take it too seriously. But if another adult tells you that - yikes!
6
If only because the YIKES is recognition that Dad was trying to save you this embarrassment.
oops - the pic of the blonde girl with a plate of burger and chips being shown how to hold a fork - here's how you pick up a chip - what the fork ?!
um - youse guyz invented fast food (if not the pizza) to be eaten held in the hands - so a burger and chips meal might NOT be a good example to teach kids about holding a knife and fork - que ?
I volunteer at childcare - paid staff regularly shout at kids to stand in line, hold hands to walk in pairs, and call out badly behaved individuals. I generally observe the kids were fine, having fun chatting amongst themselves no problems, and when an adult suddenly starts shouting, they stop what they are doing and look up 'wha' tha' adult shouting about now ?' - uncomprehendingly.
They basically learn - when an adult shouts - stop what you are doing and look at them - when they stop shouting, you can go back to what you were doing and having fun.
Kids are social animals - and tend to learn a lot more from playing together than when adults tell them to sit up straight, stop talking and be quiet - zzz !
um - youse guyz invented fast food (if not the pizza) to be eaten held in the hands - so a burger and chips meal might NOT be a good example to teach kids about holding a knife and fork - que ?
I volunteer at childcare - paid staff regularly shout at kids to stand in line, hold hands to walk in pairs, and call out badly behaved individuals. I generally observe the kids were fine, having fun chatting amongst themselves no problems, and when an adult suddenly starts shouting, they stop what they are doing and look up 'wha' tha' adult shouting about now ?' - uncomprehendingly.
They basically learn - when an adult shouts - stop what you are doing and look at them - when they stop shouting, you can go back to what you were doing and having fun.
Kids are social animals - and tend to learn a lot more from playing together than when adults tell them to sit up straight, stop talking and be quiet - zzz !
Honestly I've found for the last many years that today's kids are quite polite. I think they are more polite then we were.
Although I live in a different part of the country now so maybe it's apples to oranges.
Although I live in a different part of the country now so maybe it's apples to oranges.
3
I think girls need to be taught manners as well: how to be gracious and say "Thank you" when a guy holds the door open for them, how to be honest and chivalrous themselves, how to treat other people with respect, how to wait their turn, how to be polite, and how to dress like and act like a lady. Being treated with respect is the first step toward self-respect, and visa versa.
14
Thank you, Jackie! Gracious and honest are not gender specific!!!
5
I prefer to say "chivalry is not dead--it's just in a persistent vegetative state."
3
At the core of manners is alertness to the real needs of those around you. From this one learns that an excess of manners is as problematic as their absence. Over-insisting on holding doors open or carrying things for other people or yielding your seat can at times make them ill at ease. I'm all for people treating each other with more consideration, as long as it's grounded in authenticity and a keen awareness of what is best for the people you are with right now.
10
Great article. As a school teacher I've shifted my thinking from "How rude!" to "How uninformed," so I celebrate this article and what it's extending to us - not medieval chivalry but a contemporary notion of respect and support. I agree with the comments about gender differences. Increasingly we have students whose gender is non-binary, and I think the preferred suggestion would be to open doors and give up bus seats to anyone who is older, carrying packages, pregnant, has a cane or a walker, etc, and leave gendered notions in the past.
It would be easy for me to blame a decline in mannered discourse on the use of phones and technology. I have watched students text each other while sitting in the same room. But I won't blame technology, rather I will bring it back to a failure to teach things like - "Except when you have an emergency, your phone never belongs on the table when you're eating." And, "It is neither polite nor safe to be walking down the street with them while you are talking to someone else or texting."
It would be easy for me to blame a decline in mannered discourse on the use of phones and technology. I have watched students text each other while sitting in the same room. But I won't blame technology, rather I will bring it back to a failure to teach things like - "Except when you have an emergency, your phone never belongs on the table when you're eating." And, "It is neither polite nor safe to be walking down the street with them while you are talking to someone else or texting."
24
Val in Brooklyn, NY to Dark Brown Ink
"The preferred suggestion"? Preferred for whom, please? Speaking as a lady and a subway user, I'll take those gendered notions, thank you. I've endured many a long ride from Manhattan with an aching back and watched men pointedly look away from me rather than offer a seat. My mother, who uses a cane will be offered one, but I'm not always so lucky. I'm not a native, but I've even heard natives say that certain stereotypes are grounded in fact. By the same token, I've held doors for men with filled arms, but frankly, a lady should always be offered a seat.
How sad that Dr. Barvzi undermines part of what some might call one of the cornerstones of manners and chivalry, and is apparently agreed with.
Submitted 12/10/15 9:11 p.m. e.s.t.
"The preferred suggestion"? Preferred for whom, please? Speaking as a lady and a subway user, I'll take those gendered notions, thank you. I've endured many a long ride from Manhattan with an aching back and watched men pointedly look away from me rather than offer a seat. My mother, who uses a cane will be offered one, but I'm not always so lucky. I'm not a native, but I've even heard natives say that certain stereotypes are grounded in fact. By the same token, I've held doors for men with filled arms, but frankly, a lady should always be offered a seat.
How sad that Dr. Barvzi undermines part of what some might call one of the cornerstones of manners and chivalry, and is apparently agreed with.
Submitted 12/10/15 9:11 p.m. e.s.t.
2
Respect is the highest form of love. You can extend this to everyone you meet. If you are looking for the Adult equivalent to training in High ideals you might take a look at this:http://www.spiritualityandpractice.com/book-reviews/view/24310/saracen-c... or http://www.soitoronto.org/moral-culture - Thank you for your time
A hotel in Boston had manners classes for children when my kids were small. When my kids seemed to be tone-deaf about some manners, I said perhaps they would need to go to Parker House for etiquette lessons--and after that, all I had to do was say "Parker House" and they would shape up. Now in their thirties, they have impeccable manners. And when my son had his first semi-date at age 11, I smiled when he held the car door open for the young lady. Recently he looked at me quizzically and asked, "What exactly was the Parker House?"
3
One question : opening a door for a lady, is it chivalry or patriarchal behavior ?
More seriously, while i was reading the text, i thought at my mother which has always complained that she spent his whole life toteach me the good manners without success. However 2 days ago i was the only who left his seat in the subway when a pregnant lady came. I understand that the teenager seat next to me was to much focus on her phone to only see that a pregnant lady came into the subway. One the other side the first time that a kids left me his seat in a bus, i wanted to hung him at the support bar : i was old.
More seriously, while i was reading the text, i thought at my mother which has always complained that she spent his whole life toteach me the good manners without success. However 2 days ago i was the only who left his seat in the subway when a pregnant lady came. I understand that the teenager seat next to me was to much focus on her phone to only see that a pregnant lady came into the subway. One the other side the first time that a kids left me his seat in a bus, i wanted to hung him at the support bar : i was old.
4
Val in Brooklyn, NY to Pierre
I'm a lady and a feminist. It's chivalry, it's gallant and always will be. When someone offers my mother a seat anywhere: bus, subway, in a store, etc., she thanks them and so do I, as her daughter.
BTW, my late sister could tell you to be happy if you've reached the point of being "old." We lost her this in January of this year, she was 49 (choked, but had metastatic breast cancer). These days I consider aging THE luxury.
Submitted 12/10/15@9:36 p.m. e.s.t.
I'm a lady and a feminist. It's chivalry, it's gallant and always will be. When someone offers my mother a seat anywhere: bus, subway, in a store, etc., she thanks them and so do I, as her daughter.
BTW, my late sister could tell you to be happy if you've reached the point of being "old." We lost her this in January of this year, she was 49 (choked, but had metastatic breast cancer). These days I consider aging THE luxury.
Submitted 12/10/15@9:36 p.m. e.s.t.
Thank You so much
I think the failure of common courtesy in the modern era has a lot to do with the Victorian-style gender sensibilities that go along with traditional courtesy. You know, men being gallant protective and strong and women being delicate sensitive creatures who need looking after.
Common courtesy shouldn't be gender based. It should just be. A man shouldn't feel he needs to open a door for a woman just because she is a woman. He should do it because its courteous. And vice versa. You shouldnt be teaching boys to be gallant to women, you should be teaching them to be courteous to everyone. As a woman, if a man approaching a door opened it me I would assume hes doing it to be polite, the same as I would be if I held it open for him.
I agree common courtesy is lacking. Lets teach it to everyone, across the board without expecting genders to act differently regarding it.
Common courtesy shouldn't be gender based. It should just be. A man shouldn't feel he needs to open a door for a woman just because she is a woman. He should do it because its courteous. And vice versa. You shouldnt be teaching boys to be gallant to women, you should be teaching them to be courteous to everyone. As a woman, if a man approaching a door opened it me I would assume hes doing it to be polite, the same as I would be if I held it open for him.
I agree common courtesy is lacking. Lets teach it to everyone, across the board without expecting genders to act differently regarding it.
12
What is the matter w/ modern parents?? Manners are taught from the beginning and frankly these days darkish children tend to have better manner than palish ones... and some of the inbetween shades seem to have no manners at all. I am a palish old lady with a cane... and I never need to ask for a seat anywhere but I am very aware of who does what in terms of myself and other handicapped persons... (I try not to judge because that person who won't give up his/her seat may in fact be in lousy health!!
2
Even before I became a father I thought I want to have the kind of kids like Ms. Honaker's son. It's really not that hard.
5
Nobody wants to hear about the minor accomplishments of other people’s children, especially those who don’t have children, but it’s hard to describe how seemingly insignificant or routine advances can be cause for celebration. In our society, a child needs at least a high school diploma or strong back to be self-supporting and the vivacity and politesse to become reasonably happy in life, but none of this is assured. You never know whether *this moment* might be the moment a child has reached the limits of his potential, which could be well short of what is needed to make a life. So, insignificant and routine development isn’t.
This is a delight to see! And chivalry? Maybe, the long term effect would be a significant lowering of bullying and later, date rape incidents. And, little girls can learn to be chivalrous as well. Table manners? Eye-contact? Offering to help others rather than looking away? This isn't a sexist issue. It's what we used to call 'being mannerly.' It's so nice to see it coming back!
12
There are plenty of old "educational films" that cover these topics.
This is not just a 21st century problem, folks. Betti, you might want to try to catch "A Date with Your Family" -- a real gem about table manners from the 1950s.
This is not just a 21st century problem, folks. Betti, you might want to try to catch "A Date with Your Family" -- a real gem about table manners from the 1950s.
2
Bravo Mr. Ivanyi.
Manners are basically a function of courtesy and civility as a counterpoint to the self absorption and "it's all about me" attitude that permeates much of our culture today. Thus reality TV is not the place to learn them.
At their core manners are existential- the Golden Rule in practice.
However if one wants to be cynical and not be courteous for courtesy's sake, manners are also a way to advance a career. If you want to succeed in finance, law, medicine, corporate management or any other high compensation career other than software writing you better bring good manners to your interview and to any dining thereafter. Bad manners in the business milieu, like bad grammar, are unfortunately perceived as a sign of a lack of intelligence.
The teaching of manners is a primary function of parents. Unfortunately many new parents these days weren't taught them by their parents. Hence the need for folks who have skills like those of Mr. Ivanyi and the schools mentioned in the article.
Manners are different for men and women. A man should never walk ahead of his female companion and always open the door for her be it getting into a car or house. She goes first with food at dinner etc. etc. Any man who does not follow these basic rules of civility should be disqualified from any consideration for a serious relationship.
Manners are basically a function of courtesy and civility as a counterpoint to the self absorption and "it's all about me" attitude that permeates much of our culture today. Thus reality TV is not the place to learn them.
At their core manners are existential- the Golden Rule in practice.
However if one wants to be cynical and not be courteous for courtesy's sake, manners are also a way to advance a career. If you want to succeed in finance, law, medicine, corporate management or any other high compensation career other than software writing you better bring good manners to your interview and to any dining thereafter. Bad manners in the business milieu, like bad grammar, are unfortunately perceived as a sign of a lack of intelligence.
The teaching of manners is a primary function of parents. Unfortunately many new parents these days weren't taught them by their parents. Hence the need for folks who have skills like those of Mr. Ivanyi and the schools mentioned in the article.
Manners are different for men and women. A man should never walk ahead of his female companion and always open the door for her be it getting into a car or house. She goes first with food at dinner etc. etc. Any man who does not follow these basic rules of civility should be disqualified from any consideration for a serious relationship.
4
An idea whose time is long past! Many thanks to all who are committed to reversing some of the damage of the recent past when it comes to basic civility. Of course, what a shame parents have so utterly abrogated their responsibilities in this regard. I was taught common courtesy by my parents, and then when I went to school, it went without saying that I was expected to put those lessons into practical application out in the larger world. Funny that the headline writer chose the term "old-fashioned" as a descriptor. I don't remember getting the memo telling us all that basic polite behavior was being relegated to the past....
11
I'm not sure why the chivalric code is not being taught to men AND women. "To Dream the Impossible Dream" is a pretty good set of values and actions to aspire to.
Listen to the original, please!
Listen to the original, please!
3
It does not follow that gender equality has made chivalry obsolete. Men and women are equal. But this does not change the fact women need to trust men, and what better way for a man to win that trust than to show a little chivalry? People disproportionately and rightly value the things that we do for each other that we don't HAVE to do.
7
Here's a male perspective on holding doors for women: It's confusing, and it can be humiliating to try to be polite to a woman and have the gesture be returned with scorn. Some women clearly appreciate it, and others treat you as if you just ran over their cat. If we don't do it other men may be quick to judge us as stereotypical rude jerks and most guys don't want to be seen that way. So the bottom line is that most of us are doing the best we can with a situation where there are no straightforward rules anymore.
17
Bill -- speaking on behalf of myself only (not all women), it doesn't bother me at all when men hold doors.
But I have often wondered why it is considered "polite." After all, if there's trouble in the room I'm entering (or on the floor where I'm exiting an elevator), wouldn't I "get it" first?
But I have often wondered why it is considered "polite." After all, if there's trouble in the room I'm entering (or on the floor where I'm exiting an elevator), wouldn't I "get it" first?
1
"I'm Finding It Harder To Be A Gentleman"
Well I'm finding it harder
to be a gentleman every day
all the manners that I've been taught
have slowly died away
but if I held the door open for you
It would'nt make your day
White Stripes 2001
Well I'm finding it harder
to be a gentleman every day
all the manners that I've been taught
have slowly died away
but if I held the door open for you
It would'nt make your day
White Stripes 2001
Women who scorn a polite gesture are atrocious people. There is no excuse for it. Continue to hold doors. Some of us do appreciate it.
6
Great concept. While promoting 'common courtesy', I would ask academic institutions to avoid serving sugar and fried food to the kids at the lunch table.
And while they're at it, do teach how to properly use definite articles in conversation. e.g. It's Please hand me thee apple, not tha apple.
And while they're at it, do teach how to properly use definite articles in conversation. e.g. It's Please hand me thee apple, not tha apple.
2
I can't tell if you're commenting on the pronunciation of 'the' or the actuall use of the word 'thee.' Thee is a pronoun, it does not replace the word 'the' in any context.
2
Accents are not a matter of "proper use."
1
Perhaps some of our elected officials could enroll in an etiquette course? I constantly try to instill 'good old fashion' politeness and courtesy in my community college students. Soft skills is what we call them here, and believe me some of them need a 16 week course.
Respectfully submitted,
Respectfully submitted,
7
Thank you for writing this article. In my opinion, I found it refreshing to learn that children are being taught to be polite. Please continue to report on the value in being polite, chivalrous, and thoughtful of others. Perhaps is people were more civilized to one another with the nuances of nice manners and kind words, the world might truly be a happier and healthier place. I wish you a lovely day, and again offer a heartfelt thank you for making believe that the little things can make a big change.
7
I agree with all of it, but I fear that feminists would take umbrage at the chivalry training as being demeaning to women.
2
This is MRS. If a feminist would take umbrage at chivalry training as being demeaning to women, all that feminist would need to do is engage herself -- if a gentleman's arms were loaded and he needed to enter a room, building, etc., that feminist would show just as much courtesy to open and hold the door for him. That is COURTESY, not chivalry, not acting out of place, or anything negative. Just good, old-fashioned courtesy. If we are supposed to be in a "gender neutral" environment, what's proper for a gentleman to do for a lady is equally proper for a lady to do for a gentleman. Now that we've addressed general social manners, let's do address the lack of courtesy and manners extended to those on public transportation who are physically challenged because what I see on public transportation in the Cleveland area is atrocious -- you have no handicap, get up when you see someone who has needs. The handicapped person is not entitled to the seat of his/her choice, but to a seat in the section for accommodation.
No, I've been a feminist for forty years and I don't have a problem with men opening doors for me. To me, it's simply a matter of whoever doesn't have his or her hands full (babies, boxes, packages, grocery bags) gets to hold the door open for the person whose arms are heavily laden. That's just being nice.
2
Feminists can be women or men -- anyone who believes in equal rights and responsibilities. Plenty of women hold doors for men. You've just missed out.
1
Can Congress please attend one of these classes?
10
Send this article ASAP to Donald Trump.
17
I'm thankful if people open the door for me even if I don't obviously need help; and I always try to open the door for others (men, women, old and young) if I can. I was happy that my six year old received recognition at school earlier this week for holding a door for a group of adults (the school tries to "catch" students being good) when he was ahead of them going through. Being helpful and considerate of others is good manners.
9
There seem to be an abundance of ill mannered men now. Sometimes the timing of their departure seems like a calculated effort to make sure the door closes right in front of your face. Often I will make a "sarcastic" remark...liek "gee thanks a lot!"
We hope that our children behave when they are not home...but, even on holidays and in our family, some parents let their kids run wild in the house and they break things, so much so that my husband would like to ban them from ever coming over again.
My niece uses her fork like a heathen would and her mom makes excuses! I blame the parents...
Hooray for bringing back manners to our children.
We hope that our children behave when they are not home...but, even on holidays and in our family, some parents let their kids run wild in the house and they break things, so much so that my husband would like to ban them from ever coming over again.
My niece uses her fork like a heathen would and her mom makes excuses! I blame the parents...
Hooray for bringing back manners to our children.
10
Diana: I have experienced the analogue of "ill mannered men" with women for whom I pause to hold doors. A sizable majority of the time, they will walk through the door without saying a word. I make it a practice to pause for a moment and then supply what should ordinarily as a well-formed second-pair part, "You're welcome." It never ceases to make me chuckle when I get the sputtering "...Uh, er....thank you". What dolts.
6
But I'd wilt down onto the sidewalk with surprise. So, if ever we should meet and you hold the door, be assured of my everlasting gratitude.
Another benefit of Waldorf education. Children are taught from earliest childhood to shake hands with the teacher and look them in the eye at the beginning and end of the school day. Throughout the school years, kids are taught to clean up after themselves, be aware of the needs of others, and work together to make life easier and happier for everyone. A year or two ago my son, an early teen at the time, saw younger children push their chairs in after they left their table at a restaurant. He looked at me and said 'they must be Waldorf kids'.
Of course, parents should be teaching these appropriate behaviors to their children (both small and large), and schools should reinforce them. Civility matters.
Of course, parents should be teaching these appropriate behaviors to their children (both small and large), and schools should reinforce them. Civility matters.
16
Many people in their 20's to 40's should pay close attention to this article and to your false senses of entitlement. The lack of teaching proper etiquette over decades has lead to the improper use of cell phones during live performances and in the movies. The rudeness that people exude toward others is unacceptable and the need to be taught to pay attention to others around them is critical. I go to the movies to watch the movie not to hear and see people talking on their phones. If they want to talk, leave the theater. Our popular culture supports immaturity and these narcissistic people need to grow up.
19
Good! It's about time. Americans in general have apalling manners in general - especially table manners. There is nothing worse than eating with a person who is a slob. Totally spoils the eating experience. Thank goodness for my old world parents who demanded nothing less than impeccable table manners from their children.
7
About time.
What we call 'manners' are really a collection of respectful and thoughtful behaviors that lubricate interpersonal activity. Proven for centuries to work, manners help us treat each other better and with more consideration.
Teaching kids manners helps them deal with the world. It's sad that so many parents are more anxious to be friends with their children than to teach them how to act. Children need parents to coach and nurture.
What we call 'manners' are really a collection of respectful and thoughtful behaviors that lubricate interpersonal activity. Proven for centuries to work, manners help us treat each other better and with more consideration.
Teaching kids manners helps them deal with the world. It's sad that so many parents are more anxious to be friends with their children than to teach them how to act. Children need parents to coach and nurture.
29
With any luck, it'll rub off on their hipster, baseball cap-wearing, kickball-playing, "35-is-the-new-15" parents.
21
"They were instructed to debate respectfully, listen to others without interrupting and make arguments in a kind tone." Donald Trump would surely benefit from this course!
8
Wonderful to learn about this as we have an epidemic of rudeness and self-centeredness in American society today - just look at the top polling Republican candidate for the presidency.
I wish there was a way to educate the adults who are so incredibly rude, every day on the commute into work and back, on the streets of New York, in airports and on the plane, in restaurants, even in church. There are rude parents, too - where do you think the children learn to be rude?
Here's one big beef I have: why don't men carry handkerchiefs anymore? Without fail, every day on the train there is one, sometimes more than one, well-dressed man who subjects everyone around him to the disgusting sounds of him sniffing the snot back into his head over and over and over again, oblivious of its effect on those around him. I have never said anything because that would be impolite, too, but I sure want to.
On the flip side, I don't agree with Dr. Barzvi - I find it utterly refreshing and charming when anyone holds a door open for me or extends a small courtesy such as letting me go first, especially if that person is a child or a young man. I am not young anymore and have a bad knee and I really appreciate it.
Here's to manners making a HUGE comeback in 2016! We're all better off when we are kind and polite to each other and our political climate is desperate for an extreme infusion of classy, good manners.
I wish there was a way to educate the adults who are so incredibly rude, every day on the commute into work and back, on the streets of New York, in airports and on the plane, in restaurants, even in church. There are rude parents, too - where do you think the children learn to be rude?
Here's one big beef I have: why don't men carry handkerchiefs anymore? Without fail, every day on the train there is one, sometimes more than one, well-dressed man who subjects everyone around him to the disgusting sounds of him sniffing the snot back into his head over and over and over again, oblivious of its effect on those around him. I have never said anything because that would be impolite, too, but I sure want to.
On the flip side, I don't agree with Dr. Barzvi - I find it utterly refreshing and charming when anyone holds a door open for me or extends a small courtesy such as letting me go first, especially if that person is a child or a young man. I am not young anymore and have a bad knee and I really appreciate it.
Here's to manners making a HUGE comeback in 2016! We're all better off when we are kind and polite to each other and our political climate is desperate for an extreme infusion of classy, good manners.
18
Would you rather someone sniff or whip out a handkerchief, loudly blow their nose with it (hopefully no flying snot escapes), wipe their face off and then stuff the soiled rag back into their pocket.
As to holding a door, sure hold the door for an old person or someone who's having difficulty, but to hold a door specifically for a someone because they're a woman is ridiculous in this day and age.
As to holding a door, sure hold the door for an old person or someone who's having difficulty, but to hold a door specifically for a someone because they're a woman is ridiculous in this day and age.
4
In this age of gender equality, wouldn't you like it if a girl or young woman holds the door open for you or lets you go first?
I love the idea of children learning manners and boys being taught the value of honoring women by treating them with chivalry. But the idea of having to hire someone to do this for you?
As a parent of two young girls, my wife and I put special emphasis on manners of all kinds, as our parents did for us. Leading by example worked for our parents and seems to be working for us.
As a parent of two young girls, my wife and I put special emphasis on manners of all kinds, as our parents did for us. Leading by example worked for our parents and seems to be working for us.
14
Well... count yourself lucky. We have two boys, 5 and 7. We regularly, consciously and unconsciously, model good manners of all kinds to our children, and have eaten a family meal at the table almost every night of their short lives. And I can say it's not always so straightforward - much to my chagrin. While our kids are excellent eaters, and have mastered thanking the cook and asking to be excused, getting them to do simple things like use their utensils, sit straight in their chairs, and chew with their mouths closed has been seemingly impossible. They know all the rules and can articulate them, but in practice they often don't happen. There have been good stints over the years, but constant backsliding. We won't give up, of course. But dinners can really be painful and sometimes I want to!
1
This is good. As a child of the 60s that was taught how to eat correctly and corrected at every opportunity, I'm appalled at the number of 20-, 30-, and 40-somethings that can't even hold a knife or a fork correctly. We were always told that manners made a difference in jobs and promotions and for me that advice has proven to be very true.
24
New York buses: that's where some manners are needed. Parents seat their 8 - 9-year-old children in the 'elderly or disabled' seats near the front, and healthy-looking young men and women have eyes glued to their iphones or ears blocked by their ipods and do not offer seats to people older than they.
It's not just little kids who need education in manners.
It's not just little kids who need education in manners.
39
In my world, the pacific nw, everybody holds the door for everybody depending on how far behind they are. A study would need to be done to determine the cut off distance, but I am sure it is at least six feet. This means that when you get to the door, and someone is behind you, you have to make a decision. Hold the door too long and you risk looking ridiculous which is almost as bad as looking rude if you don't hold it at all. I will sometimes circle around to avoid awkward moments like these.
9
Good manners are entirely about being kind to other people, not about patronizing "gallantry" toward women or how to butter your bread. I am happy these programs are stressing the former, but disappointed that they are conflating it with the latter. When you do that you make everything seem like an arbitrary exercise to young children, and water down the value of the first part. Its all about the content, not about the form.
14
I knew the idea of holding doors open or giving one's seat on public transport to a woman would be pounced upon as being "patronizing." Nothing could be further from the truth. Good manners are designed not only to be kind (a relative concept that others can always call patronizing) but to provide the grease that eases the squeak of our over-populated, distracted, and increasingly insular worlds. And yes, knowing how to sit at a dinner table, how to put a napkin in the lap and how to butter bread, not talk with your mouth full or gesture with cutlery are all designed to make dining together a pleasant experience. More manners, always, please.
18
@Jackson:
I would have to respectfully disagree. Genuine kindness means not exploiting other people, being sensitive to their needs and rights, and is never patronizing. When it becomes patronizing, it stops being kindness. In which hand you hold the fork, etc. are arbitrary and culture dependent, whereas kindness is universal. The former can actually cross the line into snobbery very easily, when they become the very opposite of what I would call good manners. I don't mind holding doors open for people, but I do it for men as often as for women, and I don't do it for show.
I would have to respectfully disagree. Genuine kindness means not exploiting other people, being sensitive to their needs and rights, and is never patronizing. When it becomes patronizing, it stops being kindness. In which hand you hold the fork, etc. are arbitrary and culture dependent, whereas kindness is universal. The former can actually cross the line into snobbery very easily, when they become the very opposite of what I would call good manners. I don't mind holding doors open for people, but I do it for men as often as for women, and I don't do it for show.
4
Well said, AG. I think of knowing how to butter your bread as being "etiquette," not manners. I agree that manners, being kind and considerate of others, should not be conflated with etiquette.
1
I am surprised that in this ME ME ME generation, with everyone having a phone in their ear regardless of activity, parents ignoring their children being consumed by the latest iPhone app, the posting relatively inane items on Facebook, making like a bunch of birds tweeting away, and generally unconscious of anything but themselves, there are some who think that manners, decorum and just plain civility are still important.
We need more of this, and yes, a return to addressing adults by title not first names.
We need more of this, and yes, a return to addressing adults by title not first names.
22
As a female who loves men, I humbly request that in lieu of the chivalrous acts described here, that gentlemen will contact their Representatives to call for the passing of the ERA. I've got the door, thanks.
66
There is nothing wrong with good manners as long as both genders practice it. Everyone should be considerate and helpful. If some does not need assistance they will let you now
Let's not turn this into a gender issue. I know a lot of girls and young women who could do with some better public behavior. They could start with all the profanity coming out of their mouths and lowering their volume. In the rudeness department,I can sadly say there is males and females seem about equal.
Good manners are for everyone, even Donald Trump.
Let's not turn this into a gender issue. I know a lot of girls and young women who could do with some better public behavior. They could start with all the profanity coming out of their mouths and lowering their volume. In the rudeness department,I can sadly say there is males and females seem about equal.
Good manners are for everyone, even Donald Trump.
12
And here's another example of why manners are discouraged - the very recipients of it are so hair-trigger to belittle those who try to exercise chivalry. We can all stand in a crowded bus, we can all open our own doors. Chivalry is the added comfort that we don't always have to do everything for ourselves. Opening a car door or any similar chivalrous act is merely an acknowledgement that the other person is of value. Please! Accept the courtesy, pass it on to others. Not everything is meant as a slam against the feminist zeitgeist.
14
Speak for yourself. I for one love chivalrous acts. One thing doesn't take away from the other. Manners are timeless and show courtesy and respect.
4
It's about time. There no time early enough for children to be taught that they have a responsibility to something larger than themselves, and for their parents to not indulge every rude act of their precious little irritants.
32
I can't believe the number of people who think it's a great thing to teach boys to open doors for women. This is not a "courtesy" thing. If it were a courtesy thing, they would be taught to open doors to whomever, regardless of gender. In professional workplaces, the result of this "chivalrous" policy is that men open doors and elevators for secretaries first, and then other women. Every time I get on the elevator, is a literally a daily reminder that in my law firm, men rule, secretaries don't, and women attorneys fall somewhere in between. A constant reminder of the social hierarchy. There are some women on here who thing it's fine and sweet to have the door held for them. That's what a lot of women in the 60s thought about their male bosses patting their bums and complementing how they looked. One could also say that those activities were "polite" (who doesn't want a compliment!). But they are just gross. As is door holding for women-only.
14
Funny because as a woman I feel completely the opposite about this. Not every action is an assault on gender.
27
Not wishing to be rude, I will gladly let the door swing back on you, push past you so I can get into the elevator first, the same on the Starbucks line. And, of course,I think you are being rude by not graciously accepting courtesy when offered.
22
Same here. I love it and would NEVER date a man who didn't open doors for me. Oh, and by the way, I have a master's degree, speak 4 languages and am economically independent. No wilting flower here.
7
As far as I am concerned, worrying about how you butter your bread is completely irrelevant and silly--and yes I do know how it is "suposed" to be done. But h.ow you sit at the dinner table constantly checking your phone makes the difference between an enjoyable conversation and feeling like the rest of the table is boring you to tears. If you are a guy who runs ahead to open a door for me when I am carrying nothing, it feels kind of silly (though I do say thank you). But helping me or another person (of either gender) who is carrying a lot of things is much appreciated.
There is one thing though that I am still not sure of that happened to me a few years ago. On a bus going down a winding road from a ski area, I was barely able to get on because everyone was pushing and cutting ahead. Parents did nothing to discourage their children. The result was that I (a gray haired older woman) had to stand on the 20 mile ride back to town, despite having been near the front of the line. Not a single thirty or forty-something parent or their children (including teenagers) offered me their seat. I can understand parents not wanting their young children standing, but how about the parents who were much younger and fitter than me? Obviously, I was fit enough to be skiing but it was one of the few times when I would have liked a little chivalry--or at least the offer of it.
There is one thing though that I am still not sure of that happened to me a few years ago. On a bus going down a winding road from a ski area, I was barely able to get on because everyone was pushing and cutting ahead. Parents did nothing to discourage their children. The result was that I (a gray haired older woman) had to stand on the 20 mile ride back to town, despite having been near the front of the line. Not a single thirty or forty-something parent or their children (including teenagers) offered me their seat. I can understand parents not wanting their young children standing, but how about the parents who were much younger and fitter than me? Obviously, I was fit enough to be skiing but it was one of the few times when I would have liked a little chivalry--or at least the offer of it.
36
What you wanted was not chivalry; it was ordinary courtesy. It was rude of others to cut in line and steal a seat you should have gotten.
Teaching manners is a tremendous gift to your children, whether you do it yourself or have someone do it in a class like those described. It really does make a difference in children's confidence and their success. My one comment with respect to offering seats, opening doors, etc.: I taught my son that he should offer a seat to anyone older than he, disabled, pregnant, female, or apparently ill/tired -- but he should never insist. The same is true for holding doors. There are some who find these small courtesies incredibly insulting rather than kindnesses. How sad for them.
44
The way you put it pretty much speaks for itself. How does a woman necessarily fit in the grouping of categories you mention: the aged, the disabled, pregnant women and the ill or tired. While the latter are at some disadvantage, unless a woman is in one of the conditions above, she is not. From my pov, the custom of men opening doors for women is just another subtle way for men to express their innate superior nature. I'd much rather be helped when I need help (like around the house) and I think there are numerous other ways to be polite as well as egalitarian.
5
I agree with an earlier comment, boys somehow need to be better schooled on manners. Well, in life that's not my experience. I'll say right off, adults in Manhattan, the brand that has invaded the city over the past decade, the me me me crowd, need major schooling on manners. I've stopped holding doors for women with baby strollers in the west village. They feel entitled simply because they have a baby. They own the sidewalk, take over restaurants and never, ever say Thank you, or god forbid sorry if they bump into you. Horrible manners. As for the misandry in the Times, yea, okay we get it, women are untouchable, men are horrible. Yet, for such horrible creatures no one seems too happy when we aren't around. This piece needs a new focus to gain any valid traction.
10
I believe it is called "social skills" today and not manners. I might add, as long as technology is in the hands of this generation, there will be no "eye" contact.
6
Appalled that the emphasis is only on boys, as if girls are already perfect. Typical misandry.
13
I agree. I am a nurse, which is still a predominantly female profession, and women have always been ruder than men to one another and patients, etc.
6
Funny, I didn't see the article as directed only toward boys. Maybe it is because of the several photographs of girls accompanying the article. I personally believe that teaching manners to a child is important no matter what gender the child happens to be, and that truly good manners transcend gender and treat all people as equal. My best days are still those when someone realizes who my now-twenty year old child is, and tells me what a polite, helpful, compassionate child my husband and I have raised.
17
I need to admit that most of what my son does is based on stuff he sees me do. My manners are acceptable but could be much better, and I see his behavior as a mirror of my own. As such, I keep the focus on me, and limit my manners lessons to sometimes explaining one of my own choices. I believe it's a much more powerful lesson to have him learn by my example than from a lecture, and I have rarely (if ever) seen my son do something that I have also done (although sometimes he takes seriously what I do as a joke, and I suppose there's a lesson in that for me, too).
13
If you feel that your manners could be "much better", then why wouldn't you improve them to set a good example for your son so that he stands out among the crowd? Parents are supposed to be the primary teachers. Let's hope that good manners, respect and consideration of others don't become "old fashioned" ideals. The fact that these classes have to exist is appalling to me.
2
I think it's odd parents pay money for other people to teach their children basic manners. My parents started that process at an early age. Part of it was about civility and respectability. But they were also working class people from a marginalized region and knew education, a neutral accent, and middle class behavior were key to upward mobility. It does seem like the focus was on manners for young boys, which is weird because girls do not come out of the womb knowing where to put their napkin and how to butter their bread properly.
15
Agreed. Both my parents were hard-working immigrants who were barely able to finish high school in their own countries, yet they had impeccable manners. I now live in Chelsea surrounded by people with much more money than my parents ever dreamed of, and the lack of manners and civility is apalling. Parents need to teach by example.
4
What I missed in the article--but what many commenters have touched on--is the question of what do the parents know about courtesy, that they pass on to their children? If you are constantly checking your phone at the dinner table while not listening or talking to your children; if you scream at other drivers for perceived slights; if you denigrate your acquaintances, fellow workers, and relatives all the time; if you treat salespeople and restaurant servers with disrespect, then no paid instructor can ensure that your children will have AND MAINTAIN good manners.
62
Lazy parents create rude children. If you can't do the hard work of teaching s child to go to bed at a certain hour, to eat most of what's in front of him, to say hello and goodbye to family friends, to express gratitude (even feigned), to sit quietly in restaurants (perhaps by means of s small drawing tablet), and not to interrupt, then you are too immature and self-involved to have a child.
And your child will run all over you and everyone else.
Congratulations on your ability to procreate.
And your child will run all over you and everyone else.
Congratulations on your ability to procreate.
106
Thank you.
2
What do enforced bedtimes and making kids eat when they aren't hungry have to do with manners?
2
But to Mer, I'd say--going to bed on time means 1) following rules 2) not being overtired and therefore high strung and turbulent. Eating what you're served, though hard to enforce, shows respect for the person who went to the trouble to make you dinner.
I always teach my students that in America (and not among all cultures) correct behavior means looking people in the eye and shaking hands firmly. Smiling, saying hello, good-by, please and thank you are also considered appropriate. It is kind and considerate to hold doors and give up seats to those who are infirm, pregnant, etc. I learned such behaviors, I taught them to my child and now, to my students.
22
Good point about different cultures. When I lived in Britain, as an American at first I would look people in the eye, only to hear complaints: "those Yanks, they STARE at you!". What is good manners in one context can be offensive in another. That is why good manners is about being aware of others, not memorizing a bunch of rules.
6
The "chivalry" we should be teaching both boys and girls is to be courteous to ALL. For example, hold doors for or offer seats to people who might actually need the help -- a very pregnant woman, a man carrying a large package, an elderly couple, or a physically disabled person.
81
...respect, honesty and bravery — are also hard lessons that require time and introspection to master."
Why does this article focus on teaching these values only to boys? These are values we should be teaching girls as well.
Why does this article focus on teaching these values only to boys? These are values we should be teaching girls as well.
40
I'm encouraged that increasing numbers of parents are willing to recognize the legitimacy of their authority and hold their children to standards of behavior and civility. We're surrounded by evidence of what happens when children are raised with out such expectations.
26
You get what you tolerate. Our daughter learned pretty quickly that one of us would take her out of a restaurant if she did not behave well (our motto - just because a child is screaming doesn't mean everyone has to listen to it - problem solved by removing the child from the room). She now knows that if she behaves well she can go out to dinner with us, on great trips, cruises, etc. If she doesn't behave well, she doesn't get to go with us. Simple as that. It helps that we focus on manners as a daily part of life. Her day care provider also made this a part of daily life.
62
Good manners are important and I have done my best to teach both my children how to behave in public and at home. Everybody needs good manners, regardless of sex. However, I draw the line at 'chivalry'. As a woman I am perfectly capable of opening doors and putting on my own coat. I don't need, nor want, any help with everyday tasks. Chivalry has mostly been used to point subtly to women's inability to do for themselves and has been the basis of discrimination. Keep your chivalry, but 'hurray' for good manners all around.
11
I, too, am strong enough to manage doors and coats. That's part of who and what I am. I also climb rock and ice, camp out in the winter, split, stack and haul firewood, and carry my own string bass to places where I play. But one of my favorite musical cohorts is a fellow who insists on holding doors for me, helping me carry things, and who even lends me instruments. I have decided that I can smile and say, "Thank you" without feeling like I've been taken advantage of, or like I've compromised some important part of myself. Coming from this guy, it's a gesture of friendship and respect. Coming from a number of other men, it's what they perceive as courtesy. Couldn't we all use more of that? Just my angle on the question, not a sermon.
95
There is nothing belittling about a man treating a woman as though she were a Grand Duchess! Does a woman really need to prove to the world she can put her own coat on? That kind of thinking comes across as an inferiority complex to me, and only perpetuates the notion of gender inequality. My mother always said: to be treated like a Queen you must act like a Queen.
5
Well, I can't. Gentlemen, I welcome you to open my doors, carry my suitcases (thank you Parisian me for helping me with my suitcases during a recent visit) and help me with my packages. I certainly cannot do this on my own.
2
Boys shouldn't be treating girls the same way they would a male buddy. Who actually thinks it's acceptable for a bigger, stronger boy to throw a girl to the ground, pin her, and fart in her face? The fact is that boys do this sort of thing to each other and don't even consider it offensive. Boys rough-house and that is normal for boys. Equality doesn't mean that boys should rough-house with girls. I am a grown woman and I don't appreciate men swearing, belching, farting, telling dirty jokes, or talking about other women's boobs around me. Please, spare us from being treated as "one of the guys" in the name of equality.
50
"The fact is that boys do this sort of thing to each other and don't even consider it offensive."
I'm not sure that they don't find it offensive. Maybe the boy pinned to the ground by the older, stronger boy does.
I'm not sure that they don't find it offensive. Maybe the boy pinned to the ground by the older, stronger boy does.
47
Too many "men" have never outgrown the locker-room mentality that they found so alluring when they were in grade school. And to me, treating a woman as "one of the guys" is just another form of condescension.
14
"...acceptable for a bigger, stronger boy to throw a girl to the ground, pin her, and fart in her face? The fact is that boys do this sort of thing to each other and don't even consider it offensive. ..."???
This boy never appreciated any of that, and still does not. I refuse to associate with men who act that way. It is NOT normal!
Maybe it is "normal" for soldiers or football teams, but then that says more about war and "sport" than society wants to admit.
This boy never appreciated any of that, and still does not. I refuse to associate with men who act that way. It is NOT normal!
Maybe it is "normal" for soldiers or football teams, but then that says more about war and "sport" than society wants to admit.
6
I think it's great. I don't think many parents today teach manners. I had to visit a private school (an upscale one) a few years ago, and I was shocked by the bad table manners of middle-school students. Screaming at each other, throwing food. If you have good table manners, and know how to interact with people in a polite way, you will be more confident.
21
Proper behavior should start naturally at home and at the dinner table each night.
56
Let chivalry make an authentic comeback--all the way to Edmund Spenser's The Faerie Queene. The third book features a woman warrior, Britomart (the representative of Chastity--meaning faithfulness in marriage), who knocks a bunch of male bullies on their butts. Chivalric behavior ain't just for men.
5
Women who get all worked up over a man offering her his seat on the train or opening the door for her, they ruin it for the rest of us. People have to learn to pick their battles, and this is harmless, leave it alone.
As for kids learning at home, I don't know why people keep bringing this up. Several generations have passed since having manners were the norm, and a lot has been lost along the way, perhaps the parents find that hiring someone is more useful because it can refresh them as well.
My mother was big on manners and even so I have considered looking into a class out of curiosity, to see if there's anything I've been missing. This is good, should be standard in all schools.
As for kids learning at home, I don't know why people keep bringing this up. Several generations have passed since having manners were the norm, and a lot has been lost along the way, perhaps the parents find that hiring someone is more useful because it can refresh them as well.
My mother was big on manners and even so I have considered looking into a class out of curiosity, to see if there's anything I've been missing. This is good, should be standard in all schools.
24
I'm perfectly apparently a strong woman (being six foot tall), but I don't mind the chivalry. So open the door for me, let me through; I'll thank you with a smile. It's carry over from the greater strength men have in general and how doors weren't always easy to open, and neither may be true in any particular case, but there's no harm done by maintaining the thoughtfulness.
Where I do think chivalry goes silly is when a man seems miffed that I've opened a door for him, when he's carrying a lot of stuff. C'mon, I just want to help, just like I'd help another woman - it *is* a harm to stop that impulse on my part.
It also goes silly when the door opens toward me, and the man insists on opening it approaching from the other side (a windowed or glass door), and I'm to either slip past his body as he stands there holding the door out there, or even in one case he was positioned so that I'd need to walk under his arm while he held the door (no, not when I'm 72 inches tall and he's 68 inches tall I'm not into doing a limbo walk just to get through the door).
Just have some sense about it, folks. Aside from that, nothing wrong with helping one another.
Where I do think chivalry goes silly is when a man seems miffed that I've opened a door for him, when he's carrying a lot of stuff. C'mon, I just want to help, just like I'd help another woman - it *is* a harm to stop that impulse on my part.
It also goes silly when the door opens toward me, and the man insists on opening it approaching from the other side (a windowed or glass door), and I'm to either slip past his body as he stands there holding the door out there, or even in one case he was positioned so that I'd need to walk under his arm while he held the door (no, not when I'm 72 inches tall and he's 68 inches tall I'm not into doing a limbo walk just to get through the door).
Just have some sense about it, folks. Aside from that, nothing wrong with helping one another.
42
So much of this is gender boot camp masquerading as "etiquette": Boys behave this way, and girls behave that way. Dislike. And where are the parents? When I grew up in 1970s, me and my sisters learned manners at home.
23
What's wrong with gender boot camp? The genders are different. Pretending otherwise will not make it so.
19
I grew up in the Philippines and went to parochial for most of my childhood education. We had a class called GMRC (Good Morals and Right Conduct). We had our regular Theology class.....so the emphasis on this one was was the Right Conduct aspect. Exercise included table manners, salutations and greetings, ....yes chivalry...the girls were even taught the proper way of getting out of a car.
7
Manners, are too often lacking, by adults and children. Too many children are not having family meals and are not expected to behave. Lessons in polite behavior and manners are sorely needed today.
37
There is a big difference between learning to be courteous and considerate toward others (such as thanking people, offering a seat on the bus to a disabled person, etc.) and learning the subtle indicators of membership in the upper class (such as which of 15 forks goes where). The former is a way to be kind; the latter is a way to exclude. To quote Quentin Crisp, "Nothing more rapidly inclines a person to go into a monastery than reading a book on etiquette. There are so many trivial ways in which it is possible to commit some social sin."
33
On the other hand, it's not all that egalitarian to have table manners on par with a hog.
7
Fifteen forks? Three during a formal dinner at my house. Knowing that does not make one a class snob, only someone who thinks that sometimes it's good to make a meal a special thing. Children would be well served to know that. I was, and I didn't come from an upper class family, just one that thought that manners and acknowledgement that knowing how to behave would help in life.
5
"learning the subtle indicators of membership in the upper class (such as which of 15 forks goes where"
Nobody is talking about "15 forks", and how to eat at at table is not, and should not be, the exclusive property of the "upper class".
You will find that most children in Europe learn the proper way of eating at the table, and very few of those are "upper class".
Nobody is talking about "15 forks", and how to eat at at table is not, and should not be, the exclusive property of the "upper class".
You will find that most children in Europe learn the proper way of eating at the table, and very few of those are "upper class".
Bravo, Mr. Ivanyi! Encore !!
It is becoming more and more rare to see young people with decent manners - particularly table manners. While I come from an era old enough to remember when people "dressed up" to board an airplane or train, it seems that as modern society dashes around (while continually staring at it's palm) - it is also circling the drain when it comes to manners, appearance, or eloquence.
There is much to be said for sharing a meal at a 5 Star Restaurant with young people, and enjoy watching how they can be perfectly at ease with their etiquette.
While we must sincerely focus on stopping Global Warming, to have a Planet habitable for these Children to live on, we must also raise the bar on the way these children maintain their own sense of respect, ethics and good manners. And, not just for these kids, but for all of us.
It is becoming more and more rare to see young people with decent manners - particularly table manners. While I come from an era old enough to remember when people "dressed up" to board an airplane or train, it seems that as modern society dashes around (while continually staring at it's palm) - it is also circling the drain when it comes to manners, appearance, or eloquence.
There is much to be said for sharing a meal at a 5 Star Restaurant with young people, and enjoy watching how they can be perfectly at ease with their etiquette.
While we must sincerely focus on stopping Global Warming, to have a Planet habitable for these Children to live on, we must also raise the bar on the way these children maintain their own sense of respect, ethics and good manners. And, not just for these kids, but for all of us.
11
Oh for heavens sake, surely parents can teach civility at home and don't need a course or a class. One teaches civility by PRACTICING it in the home every single day.
Shaking hands and looking someone in the eye? When my son was 6, he very much wanted to be a "big boy" and wear a tie to church. I told him that a boy wearing a tie was expected to behave like a "big boy" and that included shaking hands, saying how do you do and looking the person in the eye. On Sunday, he'd decide if he wanted to be a "big boy" or a "little boy" and the "big boy" won out pretty quickly. At 45, he's known for his excellent manners!
Manners show respect. They are the rules of the "game of life". One cannot make up the rules as one goes along in any sport, nor in life. Even very young children can learn to wait until Mother has lifted her fork before starting eating, to put their napkin in their lap, and to thank their mother for a nice dinner.
This is not rocket science...
Shaking hands and looking someone in the eye? When my son was 6, he very much wanted to be a "big boy" and wear a tie to church. I told him that a boy wearing a tie was expected to behave like a "big boy" and that included shaking hands, saying how do you do and looking the person in the eye. On Sunday, he'd decide if he wanted to be a "big boy" or a "little boy" and the "big boy" won out pretty quickly. At 45, he's known for his excellent manners!
Manners show respect. They are the rules of the "game of life". One cannot make up the rules as one goes along in any sport, nor in life. Even very young children can learn to wait until Mother has lifted her fork before starting eating, to put their napkin in their lap, and to thank their mother for a nice dinner.
This is not rocket science...
40
I don't know, India. From the looks of behaviors I observe, the parents clearly don't know basic manners or don't care if their children learn them. I see children in restaurants behaving like they are in their own kitchens. Their parents are completely disinterested in how their childrens' behaviors affect the dining experience of the rest of the patrons. It's shameful, really.
They absolutely should be taught at home but if that's not an option, then they should be taught wherever they can be.
They absolutely should be taught at home but if that's not an option, then they should be taught wherever they can be.
46
Well said. (You meant *uninterested,* not disinterested.)
1
"Dr. Alexandra Barzvi, a clinical psychologist in New York City, urges caution when teaching this behavior to young boys."
I am a lifelong supporter of equality, but I don't feel degraded when a man opens a door for me. It's really quite lovely.
I am a lifelong supporter of equality, but I don't feel degraded when a man opens a door for me. It's really quite lovely.
77
I like to hold the door for an older person, a younger person, whoever. I think of it as an expression of friendliness and not limited to only males doing it for females.
6
I am a woman and all my adult life I've held open doors for both men and women who needed it, e.g., a man carrying a grocery bag in each arm, a woman carrying a baby, an infirm looking person. I have felt it unnecessary and a little silly for a man to hold the door open for me when it's easy for me to do it myself. But i usually thank him anyway because I understand the courteous intent of the gesture.
1
Why are these lessons "from the past?" Why have we allowed people in the present to be so rude and inconsiderate? These are basic interpersonal skills that everybody should have, in every generation, at every point in time. Calling them "old-fashioned" only reinforces to kids the idea that this is some kind of a nostalgic fad, and not a necessary set of skills they need today. Very few of the skills mentioned are truly outdated - like eating with 5 forks - but most of them are signs of basic decency and civility, which everybody needs to have and show. The rise of technology in people's lives has made them exceptionally rude and inconsiderate - from vile online attacks under the shield of anonymity, to crashing into other pedestrians because you don't care to look up from your phone and see where you're going. We need an intervention now more than ever, so those skills are especially relevant and timely, not "old-fashioned" at all!
115
You got that right, something we are sorely missing.
2
**Dr. Alexandra Barzvi, a clinical psychologist in New York City, urges caution when teaching this behavior to young boys. “It might be hypocritical when on the one hand you are trying to teach your boys, your sons, that women and men are equals,” she said. “Then you are saying, ‘But this is how you treat a woman which is different than how you might treat a buddy.’”**
I can see that. Of course, "equal" here doesn't mean "exactly the same" it means "equal in value". In my opinion it's OK to treat people differently as long as different doesn't mean less-than. BUT: Men should certainly show courtesy and respect to other men. And women, to both men and women. Hold doors. Help with burdens. Say "please" and "thank you". I don't think it's right to teach little boys that manners are things you use on girls. They're for everybody.
I can see that. Of course, "equal" here doesn't mean "exactly the same" it means "equal in value". In my opinion it's OK to treat people differently as long as different doesn't mean less-than. BUT: Men should certainly show courtesy and respect to other men. And women, to both men and women. Hold doors. Help with burdens. Say "please" and "thank you". I don't think it's right to teach little boys that manners are things you use on girls. They're for everybody.
65
Kids need to learn this in the home, not just in a class. They learn by example. Whenever we take our grandkids somewhere to eat, even if it's to a fast food place, we often receive compliments on how polite they are (which I credit to their parents first and us only secondarily). They say "May I please have..." and "Thank you" to the person behind the counter. One guy at Subway just gushed about how polite the kids were. The grown man just in front of us had ordered him around with guttural grunts and didn't even say thank you. It's about treating everyone with respect, whatever their age, gender, or station in life.
98
Absolutely. You don't need a school or a special class to teach kids to be polite and respectful. If you are raising your kids correctly, they are learning it at home.
19
The problem today is many parents are not raising their kids correctly.
I live my life without a smartphone glued to my ear. I wonder how those growing up now are to learn to interact without the person-to-person experience that comes from treating passers-by as you would wish to be treated.