Here is a package deal which I would recommend to both sides of our political divide.
1) Probably the second amendment can be satisfied if everyone has a right to only ONE handgun and ONE rifle, neither of which is rapid firing.
But why would Republicans go along? Here is something for THEM.
2) A total ban on all abortions of healthy fetuses whose heartbeat is detectable.
That would make it illegal to harvest organs from fetuses, whether for profit or not. And since a fetus with a beating heart is an independent being, its life should be regarded as being of value, INDEPENDENTLY of what the pregnant woman wishes.
We can always handle emergencies as special cases but the default would be NO "at will" abortions of late term fetuses.
Will the Democrats accept these restrictions? Will the Republicans? Perhaps not, but if some third party were to propose them, both parties would be vulnerable to charges of obstinacy.
What if the Supreme Court overrules one of these bills but not the other? Both bills could have an expiry date of three years and would be renewed only if the Supreme Court allows BOTH bills to become law.
1) Probably the second amendment can be satisfied if everyone has a right to only ONE handgun and ONE rifle, neither of which is rapid firing.
But why would Republicans go along? Here is something for THEM.
2) A total ban on all abortions of healthy fetuses whose heartbeat is detectable.
That would make it illegal to harvest organs from fetuses, whether for profit or not. And since a fetus with a beating heart is an independent being, its life should be regarded as being of value, INDEPENDENTLY of what the pregnant woman wishes.
We can always handle emergencies as special cases but the default would be NO "at will" abortions of late term fetuses.
Will the Democrats accept these restrictions? Will the Republicans? Perhaps not, but if some third party were to propose them, both parties would be vulnerable to charges of obstinacy.
What if the Supreme Court overrules one of these bills but not the other? Both bills could have an expiry date of three years and would be renewed only if the Supreme Court allows BOTH bills to become law.
4
Could this be a clue to the San Bernardino massacre? "The ISIS terror group is urging supporters to take the fight directly to the streets of the US and Europe by murdering civilians at random."
In that case, our gun control problem is even worse than we thought.
Read more here: http://nypost.com/2014/09/22/islamic-state-urges-attacks-on-us-western-c...
In that case, our gun control problem is even worse than we thought.
Read more here: http://nypost.com/2014/09/22/islamic-state-urges-attacks-on-us-western-c...
4
If no guns were available, nobody would die by guns but a prohibition of private gun ownership while it seems a simple solution probably is not likely to happen and it's too simplistic to really address the crucial reasons for the misuse of firearms, and while background checks are rational will not eliminate the problems, either. Gun sales were higher on Black Friday, the most popular shopping day of the year. These are virtually all legal sales to normal people, people without criminal nor mental disorders, the people who would not be prevented from buying them by background checks. Some of these guns will be used in crimes. The vast majority of people who buy these firearms will never use the handguns for more than target shooting and the long guns for anything but hunting or target shooting. However, some will be used to maim and kill people by otherwise sane and well socialized people and some will be used by people who have lost control of themselves or malicious motives. Canada allows sales of guns to the same kind of normal people but it controls sales to keep guns from those likely to misuse them, but the prevalence of guns is similar to the U.S. and the deaths by guns are far less per capita. Like it our not, our higher rates of gun violence as well as our high rates of drug abuse seem to come from some unaddressed prevalence of dissatisfaction with life as people are experiencing life in this country, and the solution is in addressing those needs.
4
My mother told me last night that she has two handguns in her closet, that her husband had purchased them for her from an internet dealer, and that she would not know how to use them, or feel safe doing so, even if her life was in danger.
It is a problem that, for some, getting a driver's license presents more obstacles than buying a rifle. There are states in this nation that make more inconvenient to vote than to get a gun and a concealed carry permit to go with it. (My mom has a concealed carry permit also. Why? She doesn't know).
It makes no sense anymore. The Second Amendment was a protective measure employed by a nation with virtually no armed force. I was something of a fiat for citizens to prepare themselves to coalesce in defense of the country. We have a military now; that provision is unnecessary, and now misinterpreted.
A friend said to me this morning that "guns don't kill people--people do." I reminded him that guns usually don't work by themselves. I asked him, "when was the last time an AR-15 was on trial for murder?"
We witness, in America, at least five times as many gun related crimes than any other comparably developed nation. It is time stop kowtowing to gun industry and their dollars. It is time that our leaders start to see the lives they sacrifice for the support of high-power lobbyists.
It is a problem that, for some, getting a driver's license presents more obstacles than buying a rifle. There are states in this nation that make more inconvenient to vote than to get a gun and a concealed carry permit to go with it. (My mom has a concealed carry permit also. Why? She doesn't know).
It makes no sense anymore. The Second Amendment was a protective measure employed by a nation with virtually no armed force. I was something of a fiat for citizens to prepare themselves to coalesce in defense of the country. We have a military now; that provision is unnecessary, and now misinterpreted.
A friend said to me this morning that "guns don't kill people--people do." I reminded him that guns usually don't work by themselves. I asked him, "when was the last time an AR-15 was on trial for murder?"
We witness, in America, at least five times as many gun related crimes than any other comparably developed nation. It is time stop kowtowing to gun industry and their dollars. It is time that our leaders start to see the lives they sacrifice for the support of high-power lobbyists.
4
"Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1566715.stm)
Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world (ranking below only the US, Serbia, and Yemen); and yet, it has one of the lowest gun crime rates (~ 0.3/100K pop./yr).
Interestingly, Swiss men are given an M-57 assault rifle and ammunition which they are required to keep at home, there are few restrictions on buying weapons, the government sells off surplus weaponry to the general public, and guns and shooting are popular national pastimes.
Guns are also deeply rooted in American culture; and yet, America has a much higher gun crime rate (~3.8/100K pop./yr). So, what's behind the different gun crime rates? According to the BBC article, "[Switzerland] has none of the social problems associated with gun crime seen in other industrialised countries like drugs or urban deprivation.”
To blame guns for our nation's gun crime rate is delusional. Our nation has always had high gun ownership. It has only been in the last 50 years that our gun crime rate has soared - right along with soaring drug use, soaring divorce rates, soaring out-of-wedlock births, soaring STD rates, soaring prescription drug use, soaring entitlement, etc, etc, etc…ad nauseum.
All of these issues share a root cause. Address the root cause, and you not only reduce the gun crime rate, you address all the other issues, as well.
Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world (ranking below only the US, Serbia, and Yemen); and yet, it has one of the lowest gun crime rates (~ 0.3/100K pop./yr).
Interestingly, Swiss men are given an M-57 assault rifle and ammunition which they are required to keep at home, there are few restrictions on buying weapons, the government sells off surplus weaponry to the general public, and guns and shooting are popular national pastimes.
Guns are also deeply rooted in American culture; and yet, America has a much higher gun crime rate (~3.8/100K pop./yr). So, what's behind the different gun crime rates? According to the BBC article, "[Switzerland] has none of the social problems associated with gun crime seen in other industrialised countries like drugs or urban deprivation.”
To blame guns for our nation's gun crime rate is delusional. Our nation has always had high gun ownership. It has only been in the last 50 years that our gun crime rate has soared - right along with soaring drug use, soaring divorce rates, soaring out-of-wedlock births, soaring STD rates, soaring prescription drug use, soaring entitlement, etc, etc, etc…ad nauseum.
All of these issues share a root cause. Address the root cause, and you not only reduce the gun crime rate, you address all the other issues, as well.
10
Unless and until Americans muster the political courage simply to ban the private possession of any and all semi-automatic weapons--both long guns and handguns--these massacres will continue. And even if such a ban were enacted, it would still take many years or even decades to drain the swamp from which mass murderers and garden-variety criminals get their guns.
6
As long as we have five right wing justices sitting for life on the SCOTUS who are unable to interpret a text written in 18th century language, a time when punctuation rules didn't exist, this country will have to live with ever more mass shootings that kill and injure thousands every year for the rest of its existence.
The only western country in the world that has a true people's militia instead of a standing army, Switzerland, now forbids its militia age men to take their sidearms and ammunition home in between maneuvers due to the rising incidents of gun death in the country, the highest in Europe.
The only western country in the world that has a true people's militia instead of a standing army, Switzerland, now forbids its militia age men to take their sidearms and ammunition home in between maneuvers due to the rising incidents of gun death in the country, the highest in Europe.
7
Just what sort of "sensible" gun controls would the NYT editors want? I'd like to hear some specifics. It's easy to rail about the problem without providing a solution.
The fact is ordinary law-abiding American almost never assault someone, with or without guns.
The fact is ordinary law-abiding American almost never assault someone, with or without guns.
8
The editorial poses the question of whether or not these atrocities are beyond the power of our government to stop. As long as people believe nothing can be done, nothing will be done. And that's the way we are. So, politicians will denounce this shooting, and move on because they know nobody believes anything can be done about it, anyway - and this shooting will become another notch in our national non-debate about gun control.
2
Just wondering if the gun controls you are talking about would work as well as the ones in France did in stopping the Charlie Hebdo, kosher supermarket, dance hall and restaurant massacres?
9
Profile for the 2014 Election Cycle of National Rifle Association (NRA) spending:
$28 million for Outside Spending - ranks 10th out of 144 (top 7%) making independent expenditures and electioneering communications (i.e. TV, radio, internet ads) in order to influence elections
$3.4 million for Lobbying - ranks 149th out of 3,514 (top 4%)
$984,000 for Contributions - $810,000 to candidates, $140,000 to party committees, $34,000 to leadership PAC's and other groups
Top Contribution recipients:
$33,000 Republican National Committee
$30,000 National Republican Congressional Committee
$30,000 National Republican Senatorial Committee
$10,000 Republican Federal Comittee of Pennsyllvania
$10,000 Republican Party of Kentucky
Senate
$9,900 Thad Cochran - Mississippi
$9,900 John Cornyn - Texas
$9,900 Joni Ernst - Iowa
$9,900 Mitch McConnell - Kentucky
$9,900 Pat Roberts - Kansas
$9,900 Thorn Tillis - North Carolina
$9,450 James Inhofe - Oklahoma
$8,950 Tim Scott - Sout Carolina
House of Representatives
$9,900 John Barrow - Georgia
$9,900 Eric Cantor - Virginia
$9,900 Mike Coffman - Colorado
$9,900 Ryan Costello - Pennsylvania
$9,900 Tom Cotton - Arkansas
$9,900 Bob Goodlatte - Virginia
$9,900 Stewart Mills - Minnesota
$9,900 Steve Southerland - Florida
$9,450 David Valadao - California
$8,900 Chris Gibson - New York
$8,450 Nick Rahall - West Virginia
Source - http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/recips.php?cycle=2014&id=D000000082/...
$28 million for Outside Spending - ranks 10th out of 144 (top 7%) making independent expenditures and electioneering communications (i.e. TV, radio, internet ads) in order to influence elections
$3.4 million for Lobbying - ranks 149th out of 3,514 (top 4%)
$984,000 for Contributions - $810,000 to candidates, $140,000 to party committees, $34,000 to leadership PAC's and other groups
Top Contribution recipients:
$33,000 Republican National Committee
$30,000 National Republican Congressional Committee
$30,000 National Republican Senatorial Committee
$10,000 Republican Federal Comittee of Pennsyllvania
$10,000 Republican Party of Kentucky
Senate
$9,900 Thad Cochran - Mississippi
$9,900 John Cornyn - Texas
$9,900 Joni Ernst - Iowa
$9,900 Mitch McConnell - Kentucky
$9,900 Pat Roberts - Kansas
$9,900 Thorn Tillis - North Carolina
$9,450 James Inhofe - Oklahoma
$8,950 Tim Scott - Sout Carolina
House of Representatives
$9,900 John Barrow - Georgia
$9,900 Eric Cantor - Virginia
$9,900 Mike Coffman - Colorado
$9,900 Ryan Costello - Pennsylvania
$9,900 Tom Cotton - Arkansas
$9,900 Bob Goodlatte - Virginia
$9,900 Stewart Mills - Minnesota
$9,900 Steve Southerland - Florida
$9,450 David Valadao - California
$8,900 Chris Gibson - New York
$8,450 Nick Rahall - West Virginia
Source - http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/recips.php?cycle=2014&id=D000000082/...
9
The gun manufacturers, lobbyists and politicians who perpetuate the easy access to weapons used in the mass murders will be the ones history remembers most. They're fortunate to live in a society that not only allows them to enable these atrocities but is also too meek to turn the guns on them, bringing this massive problem to a grinding halt.
5
153,000+ Americans killed by guns since 9/11. There's a message there.
7
Your proposal for SENSIBLE GUN control is ????? Do you understand that California has some of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nations? Do you really believe that SENSIBLE GUN control will prevent criminals and terrorists from obtaining guns - it appears so - thus, exactly how will that work? Just a couple of questions.
For the record, yes I'm a Life Member of the NRA, I am a gun owner, have permits for concealed carry - however - I am NOT opposed to reasonable controls. Right now to purchase a gun, I have to present a Firearms Owners I. D. that is issued by the state (also must have that to purchase ammunition), I am subject a background check by through the FBI and state police and am subject to a waiting period before the gun can come into my possession. My concealed carry permit, from three different states, required the same checks into my background including finger prints sent to each.
I believe those are reasonable, what more would you add?
For the record, yes I'm a Life Member of the NRA, I am a gun owner, have permits for concealed carry - however - I am NOT opposed to reasonable controls. Right now to purchase a gun, I have to present a Firearms Owners I. D. that is issued by the state (also must have that to purchase ammunition), I am subject a background check by through the FBI and state police and am subject to a waiting period before the gun can come into my possession. My concealed carry permit, from three different states, required the same checks into my background including finger prints sent to each.
I believe those are reasonable, what more would you add?
9
The fact that I, a suburban CT mother of two young children, have a fleeting thought about the victims of Sandy Hook every single morning as I say goodbye to my children and put them on the bus... the fact that concern over the possibility of a shooting at a school, or the mall, or a public event has become a constant, low-frequency hum in the background of my daily routine, is an appalling indication of what our society has come to accept as "normal."
And the fact that so many of the politicians and activists who oppose sensible gun-control legislation also consider themselves to be "pro-life" seems to be hypocrisy of the highest order. They want to pass regulations that save the lives of children? They want to illegalize practices that cut short a developing life? Well, then they should be able to articulate why a 6-year-old child in a Sandy Hook classroom didn't warrant protection as much as an unborn child in a Planned Parenthood clinic...
It is beyond me how anyone in an advanced society can think that the slaughter of so many innocent people is a reasonable price to pay for the ability to acquire a semi-automatic weapon without a background check, license or liability insurance. I understand that common-sense gun regulations won't prevent all mass shootings - but if they prevent even a few, isn't that worth it?
And the fact that so many of the politicians and activists who oppose sensible gun-control legislation also consider themselves to be "pro-life" seems to be hypocrisy of the highest order. They want to pass regulations that save the lives of children? They want to illegalize practices that cut short a developing life? Well, then they should be able to articulate why a 6-year-old child in a Sandy Hook classroom didn't warrant protection as much as an unborn child in a Planned Parenthood clinic...
It is beyond me how anyone in an advanced society can think that the slaughter of so many innocent people is a reasonable price to pay for the ability to acquire a semi-automatic weapon without a background check, license or liability insurance. I understand that common-sense gun regulations won't prevent all mass shootings - but if they prevent even a few, isn't that worth it?
74
Once again, the NYT and others politicizing violence, quick to blame Republicans and others who defend the 2nd Amendment (that includes Bernie Sanders BTW).
I do support banning assault weapons, closing the gun show loophole, and more accurate background checks including mental health record checks. However, we're all kidding ourselves if we think any of this would stem the tide of gun violence. First, the country is already awash in firearms, and secondly, criminals and terrorists, and the mentally unstable, will find a way to procure a gun, either by fraudulent purchase or theft, or they will resort to other weapons, even an automobile driven through a crowded street. Timothy McVeigh managed to kill 300 in OKC without firing a shot. Our society has become desensitized to violence as a result of cultural decay. That's our bigger problem. No amount of gun control is going to fix that.
I do support banning assault weapons, closing the gun show loophole, and more accurate background checks including mental health record checks. However, we're all kidding ourselves if we think any of this would stem the tide of gun violence. First, the country is already awash in firearms, and secondly, criminals and terrorists, and the mentally unstable, will find a way to procure a gun, either by fraudulent purchase or theft, or they will resort to other weapons, even an automobile driven through a crowded street. Timothy McVeigh managed to kill 300 in OKC without firing a shot. Our society has become desensitized to violence as a result of cultural decay. That's our bigger problem. No amount of gun control is going to fix that.
2
On gun violence, most of the discussions on the need to improve gun control are a debate on the margins. By that I mean that any new legislation for strengthening gun controls requiring, for example, to improve background checks, will affect only new purchases of guns. But any such new legislation will leave the remainder, all of the guns already owned, unaffected. It is as if existing gun owners have been grandfathered by old laws. This is not a solution.
The reality is that there are an estimated 310 million guns in a population of about 320 million. That amounts to almost one gun per person. But the issue is that there are an estimated 44 million gun owners in the US amounting to about seven guns per gun owner. With 14% of the total population owing guns, the high incidence of deaths by firearms in the US is a “Tyranny of the Minority” by gun owners on innocents. The key issue here is the proliferation of guns and the easy access to guns.
Tinkering on the margins has not and never will work to get rid of this social cancer. There is only one solution:
America: Demand Congress to repeal the Second Amendment.
While the supporters of the Second Amendment are stronger and more powerful than the supporters of the First Amendment who speak on their rights for the safety and security of persons, until this happens, there will continue to be broken and destroyed families.
The new law to repeal the Second Amendment should be called: “The Innocents’ Law.”
The reality is that there are an estimated 310 million guns in a population of about 320 million. That amounts to almost one gun per person. But the issue is that there are an estimated 44 million gun owners in the US amounting to about seven guns per gun owner. With 14% of the total population owing guns, the high incidence of deaths by firearms in the US is a “Tyranny of the Minority” by gun owners on innocents. The key issue here is the proliferation of guns and the easy access to guns.
Tinkering on the margins has not and never will work to get rid of this social cancer. There is only one solution:
America: Demand Congress to repeal the Second Amendment.
While the supporters of the Second Amendment are stronger and more powerful than the supporters of the First Amendment who speak on their rights for the safety and security of persons, until this happens, there will continue to be broken and destroyed families.
The new law to repeal the Second Amendment should be called: “The Innocents’ Law.”
7
Who are we?
Today San Bernardino; a mere few days ago, Colorado Springs. Within a few short months we have suffered Lafayette, Roseburg, Chattanooga, Charleston. More than one mass shooting per day in this, our exceptional nation. We are indeed a sullied, shameful city drowning in the trough of our own blood.
President Obama has declared that the mass killing at a Planned Parenthood facility in Colorado Springs “is not normal“. It may not be normal in a normal country, but in America it is all too normal, and getting more so, it seems, by the day.
The President also said that “Enough is enough.” It’s just a hunch, but I’d willingly bet that we’ll soon discover that no, indeed, such routinely macabre violence is NOT enough for the unsurpassed exceptionality of the United States.
Mass shootings no longer qualify as shocking news; they are the new normal. Add this drumbeat to the rhetoric emanating from GOP leadership and it is clear that we have completely lost our senses. In all of Congress spine is an endangered, disappearing body part.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Today San Bernardino; a mere few days ago, Colorado Springs. Within a few short months we have suffered Lafayette, Roseburg, Chattanooga, Charleston. More than one mass shooting per day in this, our exceptional nation. We are indeed a sullied, shameful city drowning in the trough of our own blood.
President Obama has declared that the mass killing at a Planned Parenthood facility in Colorado Springs “is not normal“. It may not be normal in a normal country, but in America it is all too normal, and getting more so, it seems, by the day.
The President also said that “Enough is enough.” It’s just a hunch, but I’d willingly bet that we’ll soon discover that no, indeed, such routinely macabre violence is NOT enough for the unsurpassed exceptionality of the United States.
Mass shootings no longer qualify as shocking news; they are the new normal. Add this drumbeat to the rhetoric emanating from GOP leadership and it is clear that we have completely lost our senses. In all of Congress spine is an endangered, disappearing body part.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
8
If I were king I'd ban and confiscate all automatic and semi automatic weaponry, and limit rounds on handguns to six.
Automatic weapons have no reason to be on the street in the hands of anybody except for law enforcement personnel.
I would allow for automatic weaponry to be owned and stored at a licensed gun range for "recreational" use by their owners, but at no time would they be allowed to be removed from the premises for any reason.
I'm sick and tired of hearing these second amendment fanatics go on and on about how there should be no restrictions whatsoever on gun ownership, it's pure insanity.
And to have to listen Mike Huckabee lecture me on how if only people would arm themselves as they go about their everyday lives that these events could be prevented is more than I can take as a rational human being.
I refuse to carry a weapon as I sit in my office conducting business or walk around town or patronize local businesses.
What is this country coming to?
Automatic weapons have no reason to be on the street in the hands of anybody except for law enforcement personnel.
I would allow for automatic weaponry to be owned and stored at a licensed gun range for "recreational" use by their owners, but at no time would they be allowed to be removed from the premises for any reason.
I'm sick and tired of hearing these second amendment fanatics go on and on about how there should be no restrictions whatsoever on gun ownership, it's pure insanity.
And to have to listen Mike Huckabee lecture me on how if only people would arm themselves as they go about their everyday lives that these events could be prevented is more than I can take as a rational human being.
I refuse to carry a weapon as I sit in my office conducting business or walk around town or patronize local businesses.
What is this country coming to?
7
The commentators that suggest that "gun laws can do nothing to stop this" are delusional. These mass shooting have become a fad. The fad is driven by easy and painless access to military grade weapons. Make it harder for people to acquire these weapons and the number of massacres will drop. Spontaneous outbursts of violent rage will be less damaging if weapons are not readily at hand. This is clear from the lesson of bridges; make it harder for people to throw themselves off a bridge in a moment of despair (by putting up fences, etc.), and the rate of spontaneous suicides drop. We have the loosest gun laws in the industrialized world, and we have the highest rates of gun violence. Do you really think that those two facts have no connection?
2
Not one of the "law abiding citizens" conservatives crow about is part of a "well regulated militia." We have warped the second amendment into an excuse to let people indulge in a murderous fetish of self-protection and being a John Wayne-style good guy. Enough is enough. Come for the guns of criminals and the "law abiding citizens." Our right to not be shot going to the movies or being just out in life outweighs people's delusional mythologies.
4
The forever reluctant Congress cowards that pose as the rightful heirs of the Fathers of Confederation will rapidly change their minds about gun control, the day an individual or group succeeds in breaking the supposed impenetrable security, to erupt in the room with high powered machine guns and mow about 100 of them in 20 seconds.
The next day would make history and crush the 2nd Amendment forever.
Seemingly, they think themselves to be sheltered in there.
This is Monstruous.
The next day would make history and crush the 2nd Amendment forever.
Seemingly, they think themselves to be sheltered in there.
This is Monstruous.
4
Gun advocates always like to say that the bad guys will get gun even if we have strict gun control laws. The answer to that claim is 'yes' and 'no.' Gun laws don't deter everyone but they deter enough people to reduce violence. That's evidenced by Australia's reduction in gun violence after the imposition of strict gun control laws and even in Europe where guns are restricted and gun violence is much less than here in the U.S. Many people, with emotional or paranoid difficulties may well forego the effort to purchase a weapon especially if they know that they're going to be entered into a database, pay large fees, or have their background checked. That won't eliminate all violence but it will surely cut down on much of it. That would be welcome relief to a country that has seen 355 mass shootings in this year alone.
2
Ah, yes. "Sensible controls," that's the ticket. Gang members, white supremacists, domestic abusers and terrorists have been obeying all of our existing gun laws for years. Another law or two, and all these hate-filled people will be totally stymied. Care to wait for the facts to develop? Care to note that the weapons were lawfully purchased? Care to specify what you mean by "sensible controls?" Of course not. There are political points to be scored here!
BTW, you forgot to mention "NRA" in your editorial. Please hire a better proofreader; your readership will be disappointed.
BTW, you forgot to mention "NRA" in your editorial. Please hire a better proofreader; your readership will be disappointed.
11
By any measure federal and state laws restricting gun ownership and purchases have proliferated since the Kennedy assignation in 1963. In the last ten years allow more gun control legislation was introduced than ever before in our history. Sadly, in the same time period so have the number and intensity of gun violence incidents. So while the legal restrictions on firearms increase yet so does the gun violence. Consider that maybe more laws are not the answer. Consider that something has gone haywire in our society about how people relate to each other. Consider that maybe institutionalizing mental illness as was done decades ago is part of the answer. The calls for banning guns will not work. Prohibition of any kind has never worked. As noted earlier, virtually the entire adult population of Switzerland owns a military rifle and they don't have our kind of violence. Maybe it is the people and not the guns.
3
If you want to encourage Americans, the majority of whom who believe in the right of citizens to bear arms, to support gun control, then you should stop reflexively citing every mass shooting as a basis for your argument.
Gun sales typically spike following mass shootings because most people logically react to such events by feeling a need for greater protection. The vast majority of such gun purchasers are responsible, law abiding citizens who only want protection for themselves and their families.
Citing a mass shooting, before even knowing the perpetrator's motives ( terrorists, mentally deranged, etc.), as a reason for gun control is insulting, irresponsible and garbles the otherwise sound cause to promote reasonable gun control measures. In fact, it is counterproductive because many gun proponents view such rhetoric with suspicion.
I am not saying that gun control advocates should not promote gun control. Nor am I saying that mass shootings should not be considered in the discussion of gun control. I am saying that gun control advocates should be cautious in their approach and sensitive to the fact that there is another side to the issue. The failure to respect the views of gun proponents will not promote gun control.
Gun sales typically spike following mass shootings because most people logically react to such events by feeling a need for greater protection. The vast majority of such gun purchasers are responsible, law abiding citizens who only want protection for themselves and their families.
Citing a mass shooting, before even knowing the perpetrator's motives ( terrorists, mentally deranged, etc.), as a reason for gun control is insulting, irresponsible and garbles the otherwise sound cause to promote reasonable gun control measures. In fact, it is counterproductive because many gun proponents view such rhetoric with suspicion.
I am not saying that gun control advocates should not promote gun control. Nor am I saying that mass shootings should not be considered in the discussion of gun control. I am saying that gun control advocates should be cautious in their approach and sensitive to the fact that there is another side to the issue. The failure to respect the views of gun proponents will not promote gun control.
3
To quote Laurie Anderson
"It's not the bullet that kills you, it's the hole."
Blame everything but the root cause--guns
We need sensible gun safety regulations. Ban the sale of assault rifles and large ammunition clips. Institute universal background checks. Check against the no-fly list. Allow the CDC to conduct firearms research, so root causes and solutions can be identified, and progress tracked.
Your guns are not going to be taken away. Realistically it isn't going to happen. But please help us non gun owners to feel and be safer from intimidation and gun violence. Pass common sense gun safety laws to protect us and you from those who are not as responsible as you are.
"It's not the bullet that kills you, it's the hole."
Blame everything but the root cause--guns
We need sensible gun safety regulations. Ban the sale of assault rifles and large ammunition clips. Institute universal background checks. Check against the no-fly list. Allow the CDC to conduct firearms research, so root causes and solutions can be identified, and progress tracked.
Your guns are not going to be taken away. Realistically it isn't going to happen. But please help us non gun owners to feel and be safer from intimidation and gun violence. Pass common sense gun safety laws to protect us and you from those who are not as responsible as you are.
1
The soul of America was lost when 26 kindergarteners were killed and the response was a rush to more guns: the message by the fearful and the haters is always the same: We as a nation do not really trust in God. We trust in reciprocal violence.
3
San Bernardino offers politicians another opportunity to trot out their "thoughts and prayers" cliché to the public. It amounts to nothing other than political capital.
2
Now, to resume our discussion of the Syrians the government wants admitted as refugees, where were we?
3
Amen to your editorial....again! I listened to Speaker Paul Ryan this morning when asked some very important and pointed questions by Charlie Rose on this most recent massacre - the "Republican taped response" rolled again. Ugh! Unfortunately, if the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre did not evoke any change on gun restrictions, I remain quite pessimistic for the future. I am sad, angry and ashamed for our country!
3
This constant barrage of terror from within and outside... How do I explain this to my daughter?
3
I fully support more gun control in the US, not only in sympathy with the victims of these shootings in the US, but also because some of this madness percolates up to Canada. (Fortunately our homicide rate is still very low by comparison.) However, the problem with the proposed measures is that by some accounts there are already 250,000,000 guns in private hands in the USA. How does one control what happens with those guns and their usage?
1
We need to pass sensible pipe bomb control. And gun control like they have in France which has prevented mass killings..oh wait...
3
The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
How does this imply that this socially isolated, crazy couple should have the right to buy assault weapons with associated equipment? Something seems to have been lost in translation.
How does this imply that this socially isolated, crazy couple should have the right to buy assault weapons with associated equipment? Something seems to have been lost in translation.
5
This is beyond wrong. I do not own a gun and do not support uncontrolled gun sales or selling military-grade weapons to ordinary people. By all indications that I have seen so far, the shootings in San Bernardino were a act of terrorism. The fact that the editorial tries to get some political traction out of this tragedy is unconscionable. Terrorists are a determined bunch with a goal. They will get their weapons no matter what.
3
Black Friday is a perversion in and of itself. Preparing to celebrate the birth of the Savior by buying guns as gifts? Truly sick.
2
Please explain how "sensible gun laws" would have prevented this tragedy? Remember that President Obama's proposals would not have prevented the shootings in Sandy Hook, and existing background checks failed to stop the murders in Charleston.
I will support gun laws if they are written in a way that works, and also if there is a way to enforce them.
Finally, I will never support a new gun law if the Editorial Board continues their opposition to the removal of illegal guns from NYC (i.e. stop and frisk).
As it is, this editorial is merely a political ploy, and it lacks seriousness as a solution.
I will support gun laws if they are written in a way that works, and also if there is a way to enforce them.
Finally, I will never support a new gun law if the Editorial Board continues their opposition to the removal of illegal guns from NYC (i.e. stop and frisk).
As it is, this editorial is merely a political ploy, and it lacks seriousness as a solution.
3
Assault rifles have no business being sold to the general public. I can understand someone wanting a shot gun, or single action bolt rifle for hunting, a revolver for self or home defense, but assault rife sales to the public is insanity and a recipe for disaster. Their sole purpose is mass killing. My shock never ceases to overwhelm me when I see what is available in the arsenal of weaponry for popular consumption.
Why have our politicians permitted these sales? For the sake of sanity and safety, these weapons' sales to the general public should be banned.
Why have our politicians permitted these sales? For the sake of sanity and safety, these weapons' sales to the general public should be banned.
1
The founding fathers thought this was acceptable when they wrote the 2nd amendment? No way. There is plenty of room for reasonable solutions when it comes to gun control.
1
The ‘pro-life’ movement in our country doesn’t offer their ‘thoughts and prayers’ when it comes to a woman’s right to choose. They move heaven and earth to change laws, influence politicians, close clinics, intimidate. Why only their thoughts and prayers when it comes to gun deaths? Where does a devotion to guns fit in to a ‘pro-life’ philosophy?
1
We're left with a constitutional problem: a badly worded clause conditionally protecting the right to bear arms and Supreme Court justices willing to apply original intent as they see fit (the "arms" in question were muzzle loaders, which make it very hard to bring down more than one individual before an assailant is overcome). Until the SCOTUS reconsiders the words "well-regulated Militia" (note the caps for the last word), I fear the bloodshed will continue.
Particularly disturbing in all of this are people like the current Speaker of the House who began his discussion on the morning news by pinning the blame on "the mentally ill." Yes, this has some merit, but only marginal. The Sandy Hook assailant's mother encouraged her son to have weapons, and these shooters don't appear deranged by any reasonable current standard. They bore some sort of grudge, whether religious, cultural, or personal.
The best solution would be a constitutional amendment, limiting the right to bear arms. Unlikely, given the power of the NRA.
Particularly disturbing in all of this are people like the current Speaker of the House who began his discussion on the morning news by pinning the blame on "the mentally ill." Yes, this has some merit, but only marginal. The Sandy Hook assailant's mother encouraged her son to have weapons, and these shooters don't appear deranged by any reasonable current standard. They bore some sort of grudge, whether religious, cultural, or personal.
The best solution would be a constitutional amendment, limiting the right to bear arms. Unlikely, given the power of the NRA.
Fully automatic weapons, such as those possessed by the shooters in San Bernardino, have been illegal in the US since the 1930s. Nothing about how they got them was legal. They did it anyway.
I fail to see how the proposed new laws would have prevented such brazen lawbreaking.
I fail to see how the proposed new laws would have prevented such brazen lawbreaking.
1
The authorities are thorough, hopefully they will get to the bottom of this massacre. But Americans should not be scared to spell out what they have in mind. The media has been extra cautious about the couple's religion, their origin, their affiliation, their families, while everything us under investigation. One of the possibilities they need to look at, what if the couple was demonstrating to IS how easy it is in America to legally procure guns, go on a rampage of high impact. Because people in America are so used to gun violence, they would dismiss it as an act of domestic terrorism and go about their daily business, until the next high impact event. So easy, the world is watching and live TV car chases, google maps, all make it too easy for terrorists to target innocent people.
1
Americans, please smarten up and restrict guns like every other developed country does. You're an outlier on this issue and that's not a compliment.
3
Our legal tort system has been remarkably successful at forcing manufacturers and dealers of inherently dangerous products to improve product safety. One meaningful step would be to repeal the federal law that grants immunity from suit to gun manufacturers, opening them up to civil liability. Why should gun manufacturers be immune from suit unlike the manufacturers of any other product? After a few successful suits (lawyers are very creative) we would begin to see smart guns on the shelf, and other safety measures in the distribution chain. Better yet, impose not just traditional civil liability but strict liability on manufacturers and dealers. If a gun you make and sell is used in a crime, you face civil liability regardless of any negligence on your part. We would immediately see significant changes in how guns are made, marketed and sold. While strict liability is a harsh remedy, it is not unprecedented for inherently dangerous products. We have a monumentall problem with gun violence, and strict liability could be part of the solution. This would have no effect on law abiding gun owners.
1
Too much money in the political system, influencing too many politicians in positions of power that sit on their hands and bow to the will of the NRA. Sadly, when it comes to guns in the United States its just another day and just another massacre.
4
What gun control would have prevented this shooting? There is no answer that is compatible with the second amendment. If you want to take guns away from the populace, be honest with your intentions: Call for the repeal of the 2nd amendment.
I, for one, support that freedom, and believe it will be supported by the Constitution for years to come.
I, for one, support that freedom, and believe it will be supported by the Constitution for years to come.
2
As horrific as mass shootings are, the toll of deaths on our highways and roads,, many caused by DUI, is staggering. Over 30,000 people die and many more badly injured year after year, with nary an outcry. Imagine if these would happen on one day? The resistance of the auto manufacturers to being more proactive is one reason. They fought installing seat belts for decades. If we value lives, reducing the toll on our roads should receive top priority from our regulatory agencies and auto manufacturers.
"'For those with mental illness, what we ought to be doing is treating the mental illness instead of responding to the crime,' Representative Tim Murphy, a Pennsylvania Republican and a chief sponsor of the bill, told The Wall Street Journal in an interview on Tuesday."
Presumably, we can do that as soon as we have repealed Obamacare.
Presumably, we can do that as soon as we have repealed Obamacare.
2
The NYT editorial calls for sensible gun control. Given that 351 mass murders have occurred in 334 days, I think that time for a sensible approach has passed. More action is required. The action must come from the population, mass mobilization. The NRA, which is a business, needs to be confronted, challenged and defeated as well as their political puppets. The mythology must be discredited, especially the Second Amendment.
This is a battle worth fighting for. And it will not be easy.
Of course, nothing will happen. Americans will continue to feast on Doritos and ignore public policy. Sadder than all of the killings combined is the truth that nothing will be done about this horrific cancer investing the American body politic.
Do something, do something right for once.
This is a battle worth fighting for. And it will not be easy.
Of course, nothing will happen. Americans will continue to feast on Doritos and ignore public policy. Sadder than all of the killings combined is the truth that nothing will be done about this horrific cancer investing the American body politic.
Do something, do something right for once.
2
Assuming that rational discourse is the objective of the NYT Editorial Board, how exactly does gun control fit into the likely narrative that this was an ad hoc jihadi attack? Newspapers seem to have a raft of Bloomberg-authored editorials ready to go for each of these shootings these days.
This is a ridiculous, naive editorial that completely and conveniently ignores the elephant in the room: Islamic terrorism. There are none so blind as those who will not see. This young couple willing to shoot up the same co-workers who had recently thrown them a baby shower were religiously motivated but let's not talk about that. Let's call it workplace violence and wring our hands and beg fervently for no backlash. ISIS and its disciples are at war with us and we're too busy talking about gun control and climate change to notice. Cue Donald Trump's rise in the polls.
5
14 shot dead in San Bernardino yesterday, at least that number shot dead elsewhere in other isolated incidents. 30 more Americans will be shot dead today, and 30 more tomorrow. It's the non-mass shootings that the media doesn't pay any attention to, mostly by people armed with handguns, that drive up the numbers to levels that would be unacceptable anywhere else in the world, where an actual war or civil war isn't being waged.
The blame lies squarely with the American public here, not politicians, not the NRA. Their willingness to support the universal right to bear arms, their determination to be armed to saturation levels, their poll support for guns, their dangerous fascination with weapons of destruction, their mistaken belief that guns makes them free as they cower in offices, schools, malls, movie theaters and locked in homes while SWAT teams mill around.
Judging by the scenes of grief at these mass shootings, ordinary Americans simply do not understand that the deaths are just an inevitable result of a legally available product being used for its primary and only purpose, and that the Second Amendment has a body count, and that they might be required to pay the piper next time around. Don't be shocked if it's your parent or child or co-worker or neighbor next time. Accept it. Or work to get guns out of private hands. You can't stop the wrong kind of people being armed, except by disarming everyone. That's the only solution.
The blame lies squarely with the American public here, not politicians, not the NRA. Their willingness to support the universal right to bear arms, their determination to be armed to saturation levels, their poll support for guns, their dangerous fascination with weapons of destruction, their mistaken belief that guns makes them free as they cower in offices, schools, malls, movie theaters and locked in homes while SWAT teams mill around.
Judging by the scenes of grief at these mass shootings, ordinary Americans simply do not understand that the deaths are just an inevitable result of a legally available product being used for its primary and only purpose, and that the Second Amendment has a body count, and that they might be required to pay the piper next time around. Don't be shocked if it's your parent or child or co-worker or neighbor next time. Accept it. Or work to get guns out of private hands. You can't stop the wrong kind of people being armed, except by disarming everyone. That's the only solution.
3
A ban on assault weapons. Gun-show and online gun sale background checks. This is what the vast majority of American law enforcement wants. Also what the vast majority of American citizens want. If we accomplished these two things, both the police and citizens would be safer, and we still would have the most unrestricted access to purchasing guns of any nation in the so-called civilized world.
2
The problem is the tsunami of guns, yes, but the more fundamental and dangerous problem is that one of our two governing parties is now utterly dysfunctional and completely out of touch with reality. Until the GOP regains its sanity and resumes a responsible role in politics and governance, or is reduced to a powerless rump, this scourge will continue unabated.
3
There you have it. A Pakistani and a Saudi, once again carrying our premeditated terror attacks on US homeland.
Can we finally stop calling Pakistan and Saudi Arabia our friends? Can we stop sending them advanced military hardware?
If we had bombed Peshawar and put a total embargo on anything and anyone Saudi Arabian back on Sept 12, 2001, this war on terror would have been over.
Lets do it now.
Can we finally stop calling Pakistan and Saudi Arabia our friends? Can we stop sending them advanced military hardware?
If we had bombed Peshawar and put a total embargo on anything and anyone Saudi Arabian back on Sept 12, 2001, this war on terror would have been over.
Lets do it now.
2
I have a more realistic approach to curtailing such violence: entertainment media stop promoting movies and tv programs and videos glorifying violence--torture, murder, special effects explosions, shoot-outs, devaluing human life. Let us return to entertainment which portrays the better side of human nature--love, sharing, cooperation, kindness, caring relationship, the joys of ordinary living. These mass murderers and gangs are imitating violent media; let us role-model a more civilized way of being.
1
Automobiles are potential weapons if not driven responsibly. So we require driving tests, registration of the vehicle and insurance in case someone is killed or injured by the vehicle. If all guns had to be similarly insured the insurance lobby would soon get this madness under control.
1
WE NEED A NATIONAL GUN BUY-BACK DAY!!! NYT Editorial Board: Here's my idea – Since Congress has not passed any sensible gun control legislation after innumerable shootings throughout our country, I would like to ask President Obama to declare a “National Gun Buy-back Day.” On this day, in every State in our nation, police precincts will set up spaces where any individual, no questions asked, can turn in a gun, rifle, or any other weapon and be paid cash for it. Will this stop mass shootings throughout our country? No. Will it make a dent in getting guns and other weapons off our streets and lessen the amount of guns in circulation? YES. What do you think??
1
Time to out the NRA as a terrorist organization (certainly not the vast majority of its members, but the NRA supports terrorists by insuring they are armed). Next step -- repeal the law prohibiting research into gun violence as a public health issue. Then get the facts and maybe, just maybe, Congress will be forced to act.
3
To the Editorial Board -
Though I enjoy blaming Republicans as much as any reasonable person, doing so does nothing to work toward eliminating easy access of guns. We need to admit that the NRA is so powerful it controls even left-wing politicians such as Bernie Sanders! Until the focus is shifted to a greater grass roots effort that brings enough power unions and political associations onboard to counter the tyranny of the NRA, nothing will change. I call on every union and political association to issue a statement regarding gun control. Teachers Union? American Medical Association? AARP? Where art thou? Step forward to stop the slaughter.
Though I enjoy blaming Republicans as much as any reasonable person, doing so does nothing to work toward eliminating easy access of guns. We need to admit that the NRA is so powerful it controls even left-wing politicians such as Bernie Sanders! Until the focus is shifted to a greater grass roots effort that brings enough power unions and political associations onboard to counter the tyranny of the NRA, nothing will change. I call on every union and political association to issue a statement regarding gun control. Teachers Union? American Medical Association? AARP? Where art thou? Step forward to stop the slaughter.
2
The Obama administration should immediately commission a blue ribbon panel to study and develop recommendations for comprehensive actions to reduce violence and deaths caused by firearms here in the US. The Panel should include experts in this topic in the fields of firearms, law enforcement, social science, and other relevant areas, and have lawyers on hand to draft legislative language that the commission believes would be appropriate.
Among potential actions that the commission would consider would be rational, comprehensive, updated federal gun control legislation. The commission should develop its recommendations within 3 months. To implement the recommendations, President Obama should immediately issue executive orders as appropriate, and also deliver recommendations and potential legislation to the Hill and request potential legislation be included in Hill’s legislative agenda.
Once President Obama delivers such recommendations and legislation to the House and Senate, the President should exert maximum pressure on the Hill’s leadership to make sure these recommendations and potential legislation are quickly acted upon and put to vote. The House and Senate leadership should be held accountable by the public if they do not act quickly on these recommendations and potential legislation.
All Senators and Representatives must have a voting record on this topic so that their position and voting records are known and can be widely circulated during election season.
Among potential actions that the commission would consider would be rational, comprehensive, updated federal gun control legislation. The commission should develop its recommendations within 3 months. To implement the recommendations, President Obama should immediately issue executive orders as appropriate, and also deliver recommendations and potential legislation to the Hill and request potential legislation be included in Hill’s legislative agenda.
Once President Obama delivers such recommendations and legislation to the House and Senate, the President should exert maximum pressure on the Hill’s leadership to make sure these recommendations and potential legislation are quickly acted upon and put to vote. The House and Senate leadership should be held accountable by the public if they do not act quickly on these recommendations and potential legislation.
All Senators and Representatives must have a voting record on this topic so that their position and voting records are known and can be widely circulated during election season.
1
We have the world's most powerful military yet it is correctly powerless to protect us from the most likely violence we face. Clearly it is time to take a few billion from our DEFENCE budget and buy up as many guns as people want to sell. Next non-hunting gun sales should be banned. Finally when enough of us stop visiting shopping malls in fear for their lives things will change. It's only a question of who and how many of us will be killed first.
3
If there ever was truth in the old saw, "The horse has left the barn" the situation with guns in this country this is it. The analogy for this is metastasis that occurs with cancer. Guns are so pervasive in our society that a cure is beyond our capability.
1
Families of loved ones with serious mental illness have been working tirelessly for the past few years to gain the attention of a deaf nation regarding our broken mental illness treatment system. It is disgraceful that the New York Times Editorial Board would use the tragedy in California to politicize the gun issue and throw our most vulnerable neighbors with severe mental illness under the bus.
Would any gun controls have prevented these two from obtaining their "long guns"? Obviously they didn't purchase these at a local gun store. If the hand guns these two had were obtained legally, and if these two had no prior criminal records, would any gun controls have prevented them from purchasing these weapons? I personally think that guns are terrible, but, short of banning all gun sales to anyone, how would stronger controls have stopped them?
2
Another shooting, America shrugs its shoulders. The NRA crackpots smile and say "open carry; campus carry ", that this would end the carnage. Yes, we are all going to carry weapons. Do these nuts cases at the NRA and other arch conservative organizations ever think what would happen if an untrained person, man or women, young or old pulled out their guns and started shooting in a crowded room. The answer is simple. Many innocent people would die or be maimed for life. You just cannot give a deadly weapon to untrained parties. One thing is a fact, the NRA is America's leading terrorist organization.
4
The only way this ends is if the US follows the path of every sane, modern, civil country in the Western world:ban handguns and assault rifles.
Or we will be reading about these type of killings every week.
We should be able to feel the same type of safety at home or work that the people France, England, and Germany do every day.
Or we will be reading about these type of killings every week.
We should be able to feel the same type of safety at home or work that the people France, England, and Germany do every day.
1
We have had automatic weapons readily available for decades, but only fairly recently have we had so many mass shootings.
To get to the root cause, and prevention, we need to look beyond gun control.
To get to the root cause, and prevention, we need to look beyond gun control.
1
Please, please call for a March on Washington. Millions will come. It is time to mobilize the great majority to put pressure on Congress.
3
Cut the head off the snake: money. There are people getting rich out there off the sale of guns while the blood of American spills in the streets. Expose the money trail. Expose the lobbyists and the political bribes. There are people out there getting richer and richer with every gun sale, and they're financially motivated to keep this sick status quo. And this sick status quo is going to continue so long as there are people out there making money off of it.
4
Register and tax them heavily, with steep fines for non-compliance. The government doesn't have to take your gun if it can take your car or your house. Keep it in your cold, dead hands.
1
Jefferson wrote in the Declaration that governments are instituted to secure people's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Our government is failing miserably in this regard when gun violence and murder rob thirty thousand Americans of these very rights each year. Many tens of thousands more are traumatized by witnessing these events each year. I am one who believes the unfettered "right" for citizens to arm themselves with all manner of weaponry is a gross misinterpretation of the Constitution. This current situation is antithetical to what our Founders sought to secure for all of us. And it is time now, long overdue, for us to balance the primary rights of Americans to live in safety versus the "right" to buy assault weaponry, bullet proof vests, and all manner of violent expression.
Republican's in particular have even prevented research on the causes and extent of gun violence in the US. Remember we were told for decades by *experts* that smoking was not harmful to your health. Now we read articles that gun violence is not all that bad and the rate might even be declining slightly. This is sort of like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. The US has the highest rate of violence and murder of any western democracy. We need to do something about it now.
Republican's in particular have even prevented research on the causes and extent of gun violence in the US. Remember we were told for decades by *experts* that smoking was not harmful to your health. Now we read articles that gun violence is not all that bad and the rate might even be declining slightly. This is sort of like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. The US has the highest rate of violence and murder of any western democracy. We need to do something about it now.
2
There are far too many firearms already in the stream of commerce. Removing them will take decades. Nevertheless, we've got to start somewhere, and since this is a national problem, Congress needs to act with resolve. Second Amendment advocates surely have no justifiable need to keep or use assault rifles or rapid-fire, automatic handguns. Neither for hunting nor for target practice. So as a start, they should be prohibited. And no longer manufactured, except a small, regulated, easily traceable number for military and law enforcement use. And the criminal penalties for possession or use should be enhanced even more than they are now in Title 18, Sections 922 and 924. Big prison sentences and huge fines. And strict enforcement of these penalty provisions; little, if any, room for plea- bargaining. Finally, upon adequate proof in each case, big gun manufacturers should be forced to pay the staggering healthcare costs associated with gun violence and take the burden off states and municipalities. Then let's talk about next steps.
I don't feel like a free US citizen anymore. I have been reduced to an unarmed target that is told to be prepared to fight, hide or flee whenever I leave home.
We the people has become us against them. If I refuse to live in fear does that mean I have to be extremely cautious, extraordinarily alert, stressfully suspicious, obsessively observant and just pretend like it's the "new normal?"
We the people has become us against them. If I refuse to live in fear does that mean I have to be extremely cautious, extraordinarily alert, stressfully suspicious, obsessively observant and just pretend like it's the "new normal?"
3
Why is it so difficult for Congress to disallow war-style weapons and magazines allowing for double digit shots without reloading? Surely those weapons should be limited to "militias" as specifically specified in the Constitution. Rifles for hunting and handguns for protection should be available for responsible citizens if they choose. Limiting war weapons for general use in no way violates the Constitution--it's time for the Supreme Court to revisit the issue and get it right this time. A good way would be for Congress to act for the benefit of Americans as aforesaid and let the NRA sue and bring the matter before the Court again...let's hope all the senseless death will bring reason to the bench of self-described godly men. But first and foremost, Congress must act...it's time they start earning their salaries. Perhaps as an incentive, Americans can demand that their salaries be reduced $10,000 for each death as a result of these weapons with the money going to the victims families. Last week's Colorado Springs horror and the present one would mean they'd be working without pay. Maybe loss of income might spur them on to do their job. One can always hope but that's like me praying for Congress to act--neither would have any effect.
1
It seems that the couple had planned this attack for some time in order to assemble the right gear, plan how to rig several explosive bombs to a detonating device and gather the automatic weapons needed to pack the most firepower in one single attack. Thus, the San Bernardino shooting is different than the profile of a mentally ill gunman who impulsively decides to shoot up a school, church or Planned Parenthood like Adam Lanza, Dylan Roof or Robert Dear. This couple were deeply religious and had just returned from a trip to Saudi Arabia. The House of Saud has made a point of embracing extremist Conservative religion as opposed to honoring the teachings of the traditional & peaceful Prophet Mohammed. In fact, in 2001, Saudi Arabia spent over $200 million dollars to build a research center on Wahhabism honoring Sheikh Mohammed bin Abdul Wahhab, the 18th-century fundamentalist preacher who co-founded the Saudi state. The project was shepherded by Saudi King Salman and is located on a UNESCO heritage site in the Atturaif district outside of the Saudi capital of Riyadh. Abdul Wahhab’s partnership with a local chief, Imam Mohammed bin Saud, laid the foundations for today’s kingdom & its reliance on the sheikh’s 270-year-old teachings which gave legitimacy to the first head of the royal house, who in return implemented Abdul Wahhab’s strict version of the Islamic faith. Wahhabi ideology is like a ticking time bomb, responsible for advocating violence & worldwide jihad.
4
Our gun laws or lack of them enable our real enemy ,extremism easy access to weapons of hate.
The last two tragic gun massacres are clear examples of extremism in one guise or another.
The tool if extremism is guns , we must have gun control.Hateful rhetoric on the national stage fans the flames of extremism ,we need to cool it.
Lastly we need to improve our intelligence not only externally but internally.
I implore the President , the leaders of the House and Senate to put aside their political differences and set out a legislative program to protect Americans.
In doing this they will also set an example to the country to focus on finding solutions to the Country,s problems and not indulge in pathetic finger pointing
The last two tragic gun massacres are clear examples of extremism in one guise or another.
The tool if extremism is guns , we must have gun control.Hateful rhetoric on the national stage fans the flames of extremism ,we need to cool it.
Lastly we need to improve our intelligence not only externally but internally.
I implore the President , the leaders of the House and Senate to put aside their political differences and set out a legislative program to protect Americans.
In doing this they will also set an example to the country to focus on finding solutions to the Country,s problems and not indulge in pathetic finger pointing
2
Nothing's going to change. The NRA and Second Amendment zealots own our legislatures and have put the fear of God into any politician who even thinks about taking effective measures to control guns in this country.
It's all talk, talk, talk after these shootings. The media have a field day covering the event and giving us heart-wrenching stories about victims and survivors.
There are any number of developed countries in the world who have gun control models the US could adopt. But we won't. The NRA and the Second Amendment zealots won't let us. They have us living in a state of fear.
The way to tackle the problem is at its source: there should be a Manhattan-type project to do away with the NRA's influence. I'd like to see some of our multimillionaires and billionaires step forward to match and exceed the sums the NRA spends on influencing public opinion and buying politicians. The same project should look at ways of disarming America, be it in rural pockets where so-called patriots and survivalists are armed to the teeth or in crime torn poor communities.
It's all talk, talk, talk after these shootings. The media have a field day covering the event and giving us heart-wrenching stories about victims and survivors.
There are any number of developed countries in the world who have gun control models the US could adopt. But we won't. The NRA and the Second Amendment zealots won't let us. They have us living in a state of fear.
The way to tackle the problem is at its source: there should be a Manhattan-type project to do away with the NRA's influence. I'd like to see some of our multimillionaires and billionaires step forward to match and exceed the sums the NRA spends on influencing public opinion and buying politicians. The same project should look at ways of disarming America, be it in rural pockets where so-called patriots and survivalists are armed to the teeth or in crime torn poor communities.
1
The militia still exists and could possibly be used for gun control. Under law, the Reserve Militia, includes all able-bodied men between ages 17 and 45 as opposed to the Organized Militia which includes the National Guard. Use the Militia Act at the state level and have men and women in this age group, which could be expanded due to longer active life spans to register gun owners. Registration in the militia would be a requirement of gun ownership. Under that approach, you would be able to weed out a large number of people that should not own guns as they would need to be background checked. Possession of a weapon without that certification would be a felony.
3
We cannot address gun violence with more guns. Arming everyone will simply create more potential for violence and chaos. We are all human, so all of us, not just the "mentally ill" are prone to anger, depression, impulsive behaviors of all sorts, binary ideological thinking and so on--especially in times like these when inequality, poverty and injustice are rampant.
Please, please, let's start with first steps--sensible gun control. At the same time, let's enact sensible economic reforms that allow more people to flourish and find the resources and support they need. We cannot approach this problem embittered and angry at one another. The corporate lobbyist will win if we do. We need to recognize these issues as deeply entrenched by powerful forces of corporate greed and control of our political system.
Please, please, let's start with first steps--sensible gun control. At the same time, let's enact sensible economic reforms that allow more people to flourish and find the resources and support they need. We cannot approach this problem embittered and angry at one another. The corporate lobbyist will win if we do. We need to recognize these issues as deeply entrenched by powerful forces of corporate greed and control of our political system.
1
On November 13th, I wrote: "After we mourn Paris, we must understand Paris. Paris tonight is not simply every world city. It is also every nondescript small town. Asymmetric warfare has no coordinates, and it requires only one consenting player."
Today San Bernardino is Paris.
And the Left's rallying cry is, "Confiscate America's guns!"
Worse, obliterating the radical Islamofascist terrorists never even crossed the Left's collective mind.
This is sheer lunacy.
Today San Bernardino is Paris.
And the Left's rallying cry is, "Confiscate America's guns!"
Worse, obliterating the radical Islamofascist terrorists never even crossed the Left's collective mind.
This is sheer lunacy.
1
For those who say, nothing can be done, try doing the following and I bet it will save not just one but thousands lives. Some may say this is wishful thinking but anything that prevents even one avoidable death is worth trying. Instead of sitting and offering us platitudes, Congress and the American people should do the following:
- Require background checks for all gun sales, REGARDLESS OF WHERE AND HOW THEY ARE BOUGHT
-EXPAND the background check system for gun sales to include anyone with serious mental health issues and anyone with a previous restraining order etc
-Pass a new, stronger BAN on assault weapons
-Limit ammunition magazines to 10 rounds, REQUIRE all those buying excessive ammunition to be put on a special FBI watchlist
-Get armor-piercing bullets off the streets
-Give law enforcement additional tools to prevent and prosecute gun crime
-End the freeze on gun violence research
-Change the cultural values of pride in gun ownership using public health education and the media to show the ill effects of a militarized culture
-Institute a gun "amnesty" program and burn all the guns voluntarily turned in to scrap metal, and use those funds to fund emotional intelligence training for children in K-12 schools.
- Require background checks for all gun sales, REGARDLESS OF WHERE AND HOW THEY ARE BOUGHT
-EXPAND the background check system for gun sales to include anyone with serious mental health issues and anyone with a previous restraining order etc
-Pass a new, stronger BAN on assault weapons
-Limit ammunition magazines to 10 rounds, REQUIRE all those buying excessive ammunition to be put on a special FBI watchlist
-Get armor-piercing bullets off the streets
-Give law enforcement additional tools to prevent and prosecute gun crime
-End the freeze on gun violence research
-Change the cultural values of pride in gun ownership using public health education and the media to show the ill effects of a militarized culture
-Institute a gun "amnesty" program and burn all the guns voluntarily turned in to scrap metal, and use those funds to fund emotional intelligence training for children in K-12 schools.
2
In a perfect world, we could make private gun ownership extremely difficult if not impossible. But the fact is that there are over 300,000,000 privately owned guns in this country. Gun control? That ship has sailed. We need to consider solutions to the gun problem that recognize this fact, not ignore it.
1
If nothing else, how about national registries, assigning politicians a ranking--like the NRA does--that reflects their voting history, either in favor of rational gun laws (i.e. criminal and psychological background checks, 72 hour waiting periods, no gun show sales, etc.)--or with the NRA and gun whackos? That way, they could know up-front that they can be voted out of office if they do not side with their constituents.
http://thetruthoncommonsense.com
http://thetruthoncommonsense.com
2
American politicians are cowards for refusing to tackle gun control and the American people are sheep for allowing ourselves to be slaughtered! DEMAND change! It is so sad that the singular response to these ongoing tragedies is exasperation. People act like this has to happen this way. It doesn't. We could stop it if people cared enough. Shameful!
2
Meanwhile, back in Washington, we have a litany of "our prayers and thoughts..." and a big push to defund ACA; looney riders attached to the budget which needs to be passed by 11 December; and screeches against refugees.
Didn't someone say a long time ago: "Have you no sense of decency...? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
Didn't someone say a long time ago: "Have you no sense of decency...? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
3
I am a gun owner (for hunting purposes). I am also honestly up for tighter regulations on who is eligible to own a gun. I think it would make a dent and that is worth something. But tell me, would yesterday's shooters have been ineligible for gun ownership under tighter checks? Would the Colorado Springs man? Or the Oregon college kid? What else is going on in this country?
2
I have withdrawn my pointed finger from the NRA and its minions, and now point it at the real culprits -- the feckless elected Members of Congress who are too fearful to stand up to the gun lobby and its cash. The arguments against controls are resoundingly hollow in the midst of the carnage of the past years of mass murders, and the unabated proliferation of handguns in American homes and streets. Let's stipulate that background checks alone, or an absolute ban on handguns alone, nor an absolute ban on high-capacity weapons alone, or of closing a loophole at gun shows alone will not stop the killing for good or even perhaps most circumstances. Taken together, or even in part, some lives may be saved. What is reprehensible is for the US Congress to continue to do absolutely nothing.
3
The LA Times has reported that Syed Farook, one of those killed in the shoot out with police and a participant in the shooting, had recently returned from Saudi Arabia. According to his father ( quoted in NY Daily News interview) "He was very religious. He would go to work, come back, go to pray, come back. He's Muslim."
All of the attackers were Muslims. The couple killed wore GoPro cameras strapped to their body armor and wore tactical clothing, including vests stuffed with ammunition magazines.
They were terrorists.
Let the NY Times report all the news so that we, the readers, can truly be informed and reach our own conclusions.
All of the attackers were Muslims. The couple killed wore GoPro cameras strapped to their body armor and wore tactical clothing, including vests stuffed with ammunition magazines.
They were terrorists.
Let the NY Times report all the news so that we, the readers, can truly be informed and reach our own conclusions.
2
Do we really want to live like this? Are we going to let every day in American be the OK Corral? Do we really want every man, woman, and child to have to carry a gun, so they can start firing when someone else does...or maybe shoot first if someone won't give them a promotion, marry them, or let them play with their puppy?
It's time for a new Right to Life movement, in which those of us who don't want to be shot push back against those who want the right to shoot us. Please, please: call your Congresspersons and insist on reasonable gun control measures.
It's time for a new Right to Life movement, in which those of us who don't want to be shot push back against those who want the right to shoot us. Please, please: call your Congresspersons and insist on reasonable gun control measures.
3
What gets me is that these were young people - with a baby! And they already possessed not just assault guns and rifles but assault clothing. They knew how to shoot, how to dress. And they were the young parents of a tiny baby!
It is getting harder and harder to process all of these events - tripping one after another after another.
We are old. We have no guns, nor will we buy them. But we cannot help but assess our living circumstances, a retirement community right next to a large apartment complex, filled with workers from India and their families. We love seeing the saris of women in the summertime. They seem wonderful parents. Their elderly relatives visit from India.
We do not fear our neighbors. But... We are old. Defenseless. Living in a country awash with guns. A place to buy them, I'm not kidding, within walking distance! A place which probably sells assault clothing, because they do carry outdoors-wear.
How could it have come to this? I was 18 when Kennedy was shot. Attending college in Washington, DC. My first thought at the time was that people didn't kill a president anymore - that was in Lincoln's day!
But now, recently, I read an ironic "weather report" - "cloudy, with possibility of mass shooting" - that's what it's come to!
Parents of a baby... Elderly people, like us. Children in schools. Healthcare workers. People in so-called "communities" - wary of neighbors. Stores selling attack weapons and clothing right in neighborhoods!
It is getting harder and harder to process all of these events - tripping one after another after another.
We are old. We have no guns, nor will we buy them. But we cannot help but assess our living circumstances, a retirement community right next to a large apartment complex, filled with workers from India and their families. We love seeing the saris of women in the summertime. They seem wonderful parents. Their elderly relatives visit from India.
We do not fear our neighbors. But... We are old. Defenseless. Living in a country awash with guns. A place to buy them, I'm not kidding, within walking distance! A place which probably sells assault clothing, because they do carry outdoors-wear.
How could it have come to this? I was 18 when Kennedy was shot. Attending college in Washington, DC. My first thought at the time was that people didn't kill a president anymore - that was in Lincoln's day!
But now, recently, I read an ironic "weather report" - "cloudy, with possibility of mass shooting" - that's what it's come to!
Parents of a baby... Elderly people, like us. Children in schools. Healthcare workers. People in so-called "communities" - wary of neighbors. Stores selling attack weapons and clothing right in neighborhoods!
3
The police is too quick in killing these murders which destroys critical information of what is going on. Better training of police is essential.
Adding another layer of so-called "gun control" laws will be useless. If the attacks in Paris have taught us anything it is that highly motivated individuals with sick minds can gain access to high-power weapons to cause mass murder. Remember, France, along with many other European nations, have some of the toughest gun laws on the planet, but these laws did nothing in preventing this massacre.
While we do not know all circumstances surrounding this tragedy in California, it is likely these two individuals were radicalized with a corrupt view of Islam. These assailants likely saw this deadly mission as a religious vocation given to them by those professing to be true vision of the faith.
This issue is not one of passing more laws, but focusing on the mental illness, whether it be based in religious or secular doctrine, that seems to have taken root in our society.
While we do not know all circumstances surrounding this tragedy in California, it is likely these two individuals were radicalized with a corrupt view of Islam. These assailants likely saw this deadly mission as a religious vocation given to them by those professing to be true vision of the faith.
This issue is not one of passing more laws, but focusing on the mental illness, whether it be based in religious or secular doctrine, that seems to have taken root in our society.
1
For all those that keep saying "sensible gun control" please define sensible. And lets be honest there are 400,000 deaths per year by medical error, http://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/deaths-by-medical-mistakes-hit-records
If we want to stop preventable deaths how about we start here.
If we want to stop preventable deaths how about we start here.
Congress is nuts. They have been bought off by the NRA. The president is weak and ineffective at galvanizing public sentiment on this issue.
It's enough to make a person want to move to Canada.
It's enough to make a person want to move to Canada.
1
Presidential candidate Marco Rubio declared gay marriage "current law not settled law." Let's apply the same thinking to guns (DC vs. Heller, 2008) by appointing a new generation of judges and Supreme Court Justices. Candidates like Trump et al think that by putting more guns in more places that there will be less gun violence. That's like adding cars to a traffic jam and thinking transportation will speed up. Just like Dr. King began with the schools, we must begin with a new lense on the Second Amendment. The evil edifice of the NRA may finally be brought down.
2
I could not believe it when I heard, on NPR this morning, a Southern Baptist minister from San Bernardino, who had gone to the site of the shootings, say the problem was that people in the building weren't armed.
I can only shake my head at what that says about where we are. Clergy suggesting people be armed with a weapon meant only to kill other people. If that doesn't tell us that things are really haywire, I don't know what does. Not even the murders of schoolchildren does. What is wrong with us?
I can only shake my head at what that says about where we are. Clergy suggesting people be armed with a weapon meant only to kill other people. If that doesn't tell us that things are really haywire, I don't know what does. Not even the murders of schoolchildren does. What is wrong with us?
3
This is now becoming a daily phenomenon. While Republicans react with prayers and false piety, the NRA, which helps underwrite the GOP, has blood on its hands. The organization could have been part of the solution, but, at this point, it is the trigger cause. Nearly unfettered access to firearms, including semi-automatic weapons, distinguishes this nation from just about any other "civilized" country in the world, and is directly linked to the unacceptable incidence of gun homicides, suicides, and mass shootings. More gun violence spawns more fear, which, in turn, results in spikes in gun sales. There are now more guns in circulation in America than there are citizens. Nothing will change until the composition of Congress changes.
2
All I can say is stop talking. Do something. How long will the country be paralyzed by the bullying of the gun lobby?
2
The San Bernardino shootings were Islamic terrorism. What good are more gun laws going to do? I am sure the public building had one of those silly signs that profits firearms too.
Start with hand guns. Ban handgun ammo from all but these who absolutely need the fire-power: security people. No ammo for the average person's "defense". If we had three million lethal handguns instead of three hundred millions, a lot fewer would fall into the wrong hands and the carnage would be sharply reduced. As for target shooter, they can keep their guns but get their ammo at the firing range where every bullet would have to be accounted for.
Removing three hundred million guns seems like "Will Never Happen", but stopping ammunition should be possible.
Removing three hundred million guns seems like "Will Never Happen", but stopping ammunition should be possible.
1
I don't think it is necessary to take guns away from everyone who has them. But it might be wise to prohibit gun ownership for Muslims who have traveled outside of the United States. And if that doesn't work, then extend gun prohibition to all Muslims whether they have traveled or not. Anyone who thinks they will be rewarded in heaven for killing ordinary Americans is dangerous.
We are the only industrialized Western country that has this level of gun violence.
We are the only industrialized Western country that does not have universal healthcare.
What we do have is the best Congress money can buy.
So, look for thousands to die each year from gun murders and lack of healthcare.
Only in America.
We are the only industrialized Western country that does not have universal healthcare.
What we do have is the best Congress money can buy.
So, look for thousands to die each year from gun murders and lack of healthcare.
Only in America.
4
It's become a national and international disgrace.
Millions upon millions of all kinds of guns in the general population, with large numbers of those deadly weapons in the hands of all types of malcontents, and genuine crazed people.
What do we do about it ?
The powers that be want the status quo to remain, purely to benefit the gun manufacturers, they are beholden to.
The people have been so disenfranchised, they cannot effectively influence their so called representatives in Congress; Congress has been bought and paid for, as have several government agencies, and to top it all off, we have a Supreme Court that itself is clearly acting on behalf of the .01%ters, and corporate America.
The only hope is a genuine Presidential candidate, possibly Bernie Sanders, to take on the entire cabal and return the nation to the kind of basic human decency that existed to a large degree in the 1950's.
Can it happen ?. It most certainly can, but time is running out.
Millions upon millions of all kinds of guns in the general population, with large numbers of those deadly weapons in the hands of all types of malcontents, and genuine crazed people.
What do we do about it ?
The powers that be want the status quo to remain, purely to benefit the gun manufacturers, they are beholden to.
The people have been so disenfranchised, they cannot effectively influence their so called representatives in Congress; Congress has been bought and paid for, as have several government agencies, and to top it all off, we have a Supreme Court that itself is clearly acting on behalf of the .01%ters, and corporate America.
The only hope is a genuine Presidential candidate, possibly Bernie Sanders, to take on the entire cabal and return the nation to the kind of basic human decency that existed to a large degree in the 1950's.
Can it happen ?. It most certainly can, but time is running out.
2
Sleeper cells. Every individual has them within himself or herself. Sleeper cells that can overtake the brain, making it incapable of empathy and directing it to pitiless cruelty. Sleeper cells awakened in the mentally ill by imagined slights or threats, in some previously healthy individuals by misinterpretation of intent and false assumptions as well as repeated insensitivity and actual mistreatment by others. In most of us, those sleeper cells are kept from waking by controls instilled in us from birth and instinct despite the insensitivities, false assumptions, misinterpretations, and mistreatments we all inevitably are subject to. Malevolent ideology of any stripe or spot provides nourishment to these sleeper cells. And readily available weapons of mass destruction magnify the harm these sleeper cells can cause to widespread horror. To protect ourselves we need 1) to find ways to keep the sleeper cells asleep in all of us; 2) discredit malevolent ideology by offering positive alternatives; 3) deny sanctuary and voice to those who proclaim and proselytize such violence; and 4) limit general access to powerful automatic weapons and bombs. To do less than this will leave this planet turning, human-free, through time.
The Second Amendment states "a well-regulated militia." Our government is not enforcing the gun laws as defined by the Constitution. I would love to start a class-action lawsuit against the US government (and the NRA). Any lawyers out there want to weigh in on this notion?
3
It's as if the editorial board lived through an alternate December 2nd. Wishing a political narrative, no matter how fervently, cannot change reality. Last night was not about gun violence and every person on Earth is less safe until we admit this to ourselves.
Beyond the tragic loss of human life and shattered confidence in our public safety and security--whether at home, at work, or at play--is the escalating cost of standing armies of police forces and private security teams needed to cope with the growing frequency of gun massacres. Conservatives should be furious about the growing security state and the bloated and ballooning local, state and federal budgets needed to support their unrestricted "right to bear arms." As a progressive, I certainly object to the increase costs I endure to support my neighbors' needs to secure their unrestricted access to lethal weapons.
1
I am waiting to hear what the investigation by Police and the FBI will bring to "light" on this terrible trajedy. Early reports from Authorities are stating that the weapons appear to have been purchased legally with background checks, though there is the idea that the rifles may have been borrowed. We are at a crossraod where we will have to make a choice. If this was an act of terrorism... there is no solution except for what the right wing and Fox are calling for. If this is a case of mental illness and dominance over his wife, then there must be even more stringent background and psychological checks to own a gun. Both solutions will not result in 100% security for the people of the United States. At this point in the investigation, perhaps a better tact would be to wait for more information to made available to the public and standing with those families who are experiencing so much pain at this moment and step down from the "soapbox".
Listen to the President you elected twice America. "No other country in the world has this pattern" of random gun related deaths. Every country in the world has people with mental health issues, people who are rash and impulsive or those who are inherently evil or violent. But nowhere else in the world, are those people given such easy access to millions of deadly weapons, certainly not war scale assault weapons and ammunition. It's time to start questioning people for their choice to own a gun because them exercising this so called "constitutional right" is putting at risk the "right to life" and "right to live, work and play without fear" for everyone else and their children. Start treating guns as the public health hazard that they are. Ask your neighbors if they own a gun before you let a child go over for a playdate or associate with them socially. Ask your state and national representatives about what they plan to do to make access to guns extremely selective and restrictive. Turn up and vote out of office all the politicians who are favored by the NRA (AKA spokespeople for the gun industry).
2
Guess what, shooting multiple innocent people is terrorism. If this was our definition, congress might not have an excuse to do nothing. Apparently in our congressional leaders minds, (I'm using the term 'leaders' very loosely) it's only terrorism if it's of foreign origin.
1
The arguments, trotted out by Republican leaders after each mass shooting, are indeed evidence that America has a mental health problem.
2
It is time to admit that the cause of Mass shootings is everything. Its guns, though no amount of gun control will stop them, it’s the economy, terrorism, climate change, endless wars, middle class insecurity and inequality, and globalization. It’s a culture of sex and violence. It’s everyone having an opinion and no one being reasonable or having perspective. It’s everyone obsessed with their rights and freedom and no one being responsible. It’s science denial. It’s politicians and public making every issue life or death. It’s everyone going ballistic on social media every time someone says something stupid and it is our addiction to anger, fear, resentment, hyperbole, histrionics, and rage. Most of all it is the media, which spends too much time pushing our buttons and not enough time calmly informing us and giving us perspective.
Mass shootings are a symptom of what America has become in an age of global capitalism and 24-hour media saturation. I have seen the enemy and it is us.
Mass shootings are a symptom of what America has become in an age of global capitalism and 24-hour media saturation. I have seen the enemy and it is us.
1
Guns don't kill people. The companies that manufacture them do.
2
NRA NRA NRA NRA NRA NRA NRA NRA NRA NRA NRA NRA NRA NRA
=14. This time.
=14. This time.
1
Of course there was a huge sale of firearms on black Friday. Citizens are waking to the reality that government forces cannot protect them from determined disciplined assault. Beyond that the federal agencies have been deliberately hampered through Obama administration inhibiting aggressive intelligence gathering of Muslim groups.
The liberal media has been Niagara feeding the populace the red-herring threat of "Christian Terrorism" while the the president still refuses to recognize that posed by - the unmentionable - "Islamic Terrorism." Folks - In your morning subway commute or presence at the Rockefeller Center Christmas Tree lighting are you wary of Christian Terrorists? Or, as you gaze around at the pressing crowd and the monstrous surrounding police force, do you feel the danger of Islamic Terrorists? Be honest - unlike the liberal media - especially the NYTimes and the Obama administration.
This government is failing its primary responsibility of protecting its citizens against a threat it refuses to acknowledge. Worse - it bloviates and exaggerates false threats. Americans fully understand what's going on - that's why they are self-arming.
The liberal media has been Niagara feeding the populace the red-herring threat of "Christian Terrorism" while the the president still refuses to recognize that posed by - the unmentionable - "Islamic Terrorism." Folks - In your morning subway commute or presence at the Rockefeller Center Christmas Tree lighting are you wary of Christian Terrorists? Or, as you gaze around at the pressing crowd and the monstrous surrounding police force, do you feel the danger of Islamic Terrorists? Be honest - unlike the liberal media - especially the NYTimes and the Obama administration.
This government is failing its primary responsibility of protecting its citizens against a threat it refuses to acknowledge. Worse - it bloviates and exaggerates false threats. Americans fully understand what's going on - that's why they are self-arming.
1
Yet again a mass shooting and no good guy with a gun on hand to stop the killing. That's because a good guy wouldn't take a gun into a public health facility. Anyone carrying a gun in public has the power to kill and is therefore suspect. But the killing spree continues across the land and the cowards in our leadership refuse to challenge the extremists who kill even a reasonable debate.
wrong again. gun control laws do not fix the problem of hate and inequality. we live in a totally unequal society, thus, we do not seek to understand the experiences of our fellow humans, rather, we immediately judge them and discard their experience based on our own preconceived notions (read: stereotypes). inequality, regardless of the stem (race, class, ability, sexual orientation, etc.) seek to divide us. i don't want a world in which we pass laws and install metal detectors. i want a world in which we don't shy away from caring about the people we inhabit the world with. and the first step is looking at how we as individuals interact with the world. that's how we create a better society - that's how we truly eliminate violence.
this isn't about gun control, this is about how we interact with each other. this is about the lack of regard for people and the paucity of concern for human dignity. no laws can change that. it's up to us as individuals.
this isn't about gun control, this is about how we interact with each other. this is about the lack of regard for people and the paucity of concern for human dignity. no laws can change that. it's up to us as individuals.
The Editors need to have a separate sidebar called something like "The Latest Massacre" in which they describe the gun massacres in which 4 or more people are killed or wounded in the past 24 hours.
After a few weeks, it will become apparent that this is so frequent an outcome that people will finally get off their duffs and start to call their elected Representatives and Senators to tell them to stand up to the NRA.
Just do your job - report the news. No editorial content, just factual news.
After a few weeks, it will become apparent that this is so frequent an outcome that people will finally get off their duffs and start to call their elected Representatives and Senators to tell them to stand up to the NRA.
Just do your job - report the news. No editorial content, just factual news.
1
Murder rates with guns are at their lowest levels since the 1950's. These kinds of shootings make for sensational headlines, but our progress on reducing homicide with guns has been spectacular despite the fact that there are more guns out there than ever. Let's actually try to solve the problem instead of screaming for policy changes that probably will not have an impact or are not workable.
From the editorial: "Yet, even as grief fills communities randomly victimized by mass shootings, the sales of weapons grow ever higher."
And in this "home of the brave", those who profit from all of this mayhem call that phenomenon "PANIC buying" and snicker all the way to the off-shore bank.
From The Intercept: "Gun Industry Executives Say Mass Shootings Are Good for Business" https://theintercept.com/2015/12/03/mass-shooting-wall-st/
[blockquote] [...] “The gun business was very much accelerated based on what happened after the election and then the tragedy that happened at Sandy Hook,” Ed Stack, the chief executive of Dick’s Sporting Goods, a leading gun and ammunition retailer, said in September 2014 at the Goldman Sachs Global Retailing Conference. Stack noted that the industry saw “panic buying” when customers “thought there were going to be some very meaningful changes in our gun” laws. The new sales “didn’t bring hunters in” but rather “brought shooters into the industry,” he added. [...] [end blockquote]
And in this "home of the brave", those who profit from all of this mayhem call that phenomenon "PANIC buying" and snicker all the way to the off-shore bank.
From The Intercept: "Gun Industry Executives Say Mass Shootings Are Good for Business" https://theintercept.com/2015/12/03/mass-shooting-wall-st/
[blockquote] [...] “The gun business was very much accelerated based on what happened after the election and then the tragedy that happened at Sandy Hook,” Ed Stack, the chief executive of Dick’s Sporting Goods, a leading gun and ammunition retailer, said in September 2014 at the Goldman Sachs Global Retailing Conference. Stack noted that the industry saw “panic buying” when customers “thought there were going to be some very meaningful changes in our gun” laws. The new sales “didn’t bring hunters in” but rather “brought shooters into the industry,” he added. [...] [end blockquote]
The Times and Obama keep talking about reasonable gun controls. Any chance that either of you will say something specific?
I didn't think so.
I didn't think so.
There were three shooters until the police killed first two (or maybe even one - second was lightly wounded at first). Then the police discovered that the terrorists were Muslims and the second suspect dies, and the third one is already just a passerby. Do you really want them to tell you there was a team of three Muslim terrorists?
Ah, it was just another mass killing, don't worry.
Ah, it was just another mass killing, don't worry.
Both Carly Fiorina and Paul Ryan premised, today on MSNBC, that enforcement of current gun laws is lax and that that issue should be addressed before writing new regulations or laws. No suggestion of how to do that was proposed.
Do statistics exist that support this premise- not anecdotal evidence-real data?
When questioned whether a study of gun violence is in order, Ryan punted to a discussion of budget issues. Conveniently, not studying the issue will continue to allow unsupported declarations on the issue!
Do statistics exist that support this premise- not anecdotal evidence-real data?
When questioned whether a study of gun violence is in order, Ryan punted to a discussion of budget issues. Conveniently, not studying the issue will continue to allow unsupported declarations on the issue!
1
So one article in NYT says that California has the strictest gun laws of any state, and the editorial board posts this article saying that Republicans are at fault for opposing gun regulation? If this killing spree happened in the state with the most gun laws (according to NYT own) then how are Republican lawmakers to blame for not encouraging stricter gun control? Typical liberal propaganda spewed by the NYT writers? I think so...
Sad because NYT used to be such a respected periodical. But clearly they just enjoy playing into bipartisan politics just as much as those on who they report.
Sad because NYT used to be such a respected periodical. But clearly they just enjoy playing into bipartisan politics just as much as those on who they report.
How can the Left be not okay with law-abiding Americans' constitutional right to keep and bear arms and be okay with Obama's unconstitutional nuclear arming of apocalyptic radical-Islamist terrorists not constrained by MAD?
Ask yourself: Which has the greater potential to destroy us?
–The Keystone XL pipeline or Obama's Iran nuke deal?
–Carbon non-neutrality or Putin non-neutrality?
–Wiping out an incipient terrorist threat, or directly causing it's actualization and rapid metastasis and then "managing" it to "burnish" one's presidential "legacy"??
The magnitude & frequency of Obama's acts of irreversible damage to America vary inversely and exponentially with his time left in office.
A despot can do a lot of damage in 14 months and a deluded one blinded by his own imagined brilliance will.
One day in the not too distant future, when our children and grandchildren are suffering the consequences of Barack Obama, the Clintons, John Kerry et al., they will ask us why we put these unfit people in office in the first place, and why, when their existential threat to us and the world became obvious, we did not immediately remove them for unfitness, our constitutional right... and our duty.
Ask yourself: Which has the greater potential to destroy us?
–The Keystone XL pipeline or Obama's Iran nuke deal?
–Carbon non-neutrality or Putin non-neutrality?
–Wiping out an incipient terrorist threat, or directly causing it's actualization and rapid metastasis and then "managing" it to "burnish" one's presidential "legacy"??
The magnitude & frequency of Obama's acts of irreversible damage to America vary inversely and exponentially with his time left in office.
A despot can do a lot of damage in 14 months and a deluded one blinded by his own imagined brilliance will.
One day in the not too distant future, when our children and grandchildren are suffering the consequences of Barack Obama, the Clintons, John Kerry et al., they will ask us why we put these unfit people in office in the first place, and why, when their existential threat to us and the world became obvious, we did not immediately remove them for unfitness, our constitutional right... and our duty.
Another article that calls for "sensible gun laws" without ever saying once what those would be.
This was Islam. This religion is the biggest threat to western civilization in our times. Stop apologizing for it and making excuses. Could you imagine if these were Christian scientists, or jehovah witnesses, or a sect of Catholics? There would be protests in the street.
Blame guns all you want. But Americans aren't going to give up their guns when we are in a very real religious war.
Blame guns all you want. But Americans aren't going to give up their guns when we are in a very real religious war.
We need to wage war on the NRA -- which actively aids, abets and supports this domestic terrorism -- and the politicians who take NRA money. It's that simple. We need to reclaim our country. It is silly for reasonable people to sit around saying, "Gosh, even people who own and enjoy guns don't want AK47s in the hands of the unstable." The NRA, funded by gun manufacturers, does want that. Because gun sales go up every time there's another instance of this NRA-sponsored domestic terrorism. The Republicans have many sins to atone for -- and this is one of the greatest.
1
Legal gun purchases. Maybe we need to shift the conversation to talk about our disregard for each other. It appears to be "easier" to kill when we viciously disrespect those we attack. Could politicians - like say Trump - be modeling this attack and demean behavior? Fueling a fire that impulsive, disenfranchised citizens can quickly turn into horrific rampages because of easy access to guns?
Politicians today will not solve this problem. A vote for regulated gun ownership would result in their lost endorsement by the NRA. (see: https://www.nrapvf.org/grades/). Lost NRA endorsement triggers a barrage of negative publicity by loyal, organized volunteers aimed at destroying a politician's reputation regardless of their true value as a legislator. Elections are lost due to this tactic. This is a dead end street.
Further, the NRA has cleverly orchestrated the hijacking of the second amendment by directing the focus on the words "right of the people to keep and bear arms" and away from the first three words of the amendment:"A well regulated". Yes, the word "regulated" is the third word in the second amendment and it has been buried by a fiendishly clever lobby. The NRA has developed the tried and true talking points used at the time of every mass shooting, that regulations would not have prevented the act.
If the NRA is so sure they are right about unregulated ownership of military grade assault weapons, then they should readily offer to pick up the tab for all costs associated with mass shootings. Because right now, you and I, the duped public are footing the massive, growing bill against our will and no politician has lost a single vote as a result. We are our own worst enemies folks.
Further, the NRA has cleverly orchestrated the hijacking of the second amendment by directing the focus on the words "right of the people to keep and bear arms" and away from the first three words of the amendment:"A well regulated". Yes, the word "regulated" is the third word in the second amendment and it has been buried by a fiendishly clever lobby. The NRA has developed the tried and true talking points used at the time of every mass shooting, that regulations would not have prevented the act.
If the NRA is so sure they are right about unregulated ownership of military grade assault weapons, then they should readily offer to pick up the tab for all costs associated with mass shootings. Because right now, you and I, the duped public are footing the massive, growing bill against our will and no politician has lost a single vote as a result. We are our own worst enemies folks.
The Second Amendment, often invoked to justify unfettered access to guns,clearly links "the right to keep and bear arms" to the necessity of a "well-regulated militia". The Amendment doesn't ban guns for personal use,either.Gun control is needed for basic public safety-not because it will prevent all mass shootings or street crime.
3
It is clearly too early to say for sure what happened to set off the San Bernardino massacre. It is certainly difficult to reconcile parents of a 6 month old child choosing a suicide mission of this type unless their beliefs about life and death differ greatly from ours. Early reports indicate that there may have been a revenge motive and again, insults are often reacted to very differently in different cultures. One thing seems certain. With the increased mixing of cultures arising from refugees, rapid and expanding communications and increasing travel the flood of guns and assault weapons in the US could easily allow more of these horrors in this nation.
1
I hate to say it, but I'm seriously starting to think about leaving this country for a safer one. The US has lost it's sanity and I no longer feel comfortable here even though my family came here in the mid 1800's.
2
The Declaration of Independence states the rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are enshrined by the Creator and that "to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men...." Yet, these words seem to be forgotten and the "right to bear arms" supersedes all else. It is perverse that the right to life has taken a back seat to the current interpretation of the Second Amendment. However, the Declaration clearly says that "to secure these rights, governments are instituted," and it seems absurd that our current government remains impotent in being able to bring some sanity to gun violence. We went to two wars after the 9/11 bombings in which 3000 people were killed, yet tens of thousands of Americans have been killed each year and nothing is done. Why does the government allow such insanity to continue?
Workplace violence in the U.S. where so many hate their jobs and/or their boss or are so angry. Thank God for the Los Angelos Police Department and every other police department! The police have been so vilified by the President, special interest groups and the liberals. The first person one will call if in this situation would be the police. Americans needs to remember that.
1
The Times, and many of the readers of the Times, believe that no firearms should be in private hands. Or, if some are, the regulations should be so onerous that within a generation or two, no one will bother to jump thru the hoops necessary for gun ownership. This is the social engineering end game.
As a gun owner, at some level I am sympathetic to this position. The difficulty lies with reality. We do not live in a kind world, the police are, legally, not obligated to protect. Rights exist only if one is willing to stand up to oppression in order to demand them. That a jew, in this country or anywhere else in the world, would actually believe in the long term benign nature of governments is jaw dropping. It shocks me that jews are not on the forefront of demanding the untrammelled exercise of Second Amendment rights.
There will the the political angling over this tragedy. Rahm Emanuel is now on his knees thanking God for this latest story. Hillary will cluck cluck behind her phalanx of hired guns. Blacks will continue to murder each other at rates that dwarf that of White on White murder while craven college administrators will parrot the mantra "black lives matter". Trump will ... who knows what he'll say.
Laws are not the answer. Frankly, at this moment it is not clear what happened and why. Time will tell.
As a gun owner, at some level I am sympathetic to this position. The difficulty lies with reality. We do not live in a kind world, the police are, legally, not obligated to protect. Rights exist only if one is willing to stand up to oppression in order to demand them. That a jew, in this country or anywhere else in the world, would actually believe in the long term benign nature of governments is jaw dropping. It shocks me that jews are not on the forefront of demanding the untrammelled exercise of Second Amendment rights.
There will the the political angling over this tragedy. Rahm Emanuel is now on his knees thanking God for this latest story. Hillary will cluck cluck behind her phalanx of hired guns. Blacks will continue to murder each other at rates that dwarf that of White on White murder while craven college administrators will parrot the mantra "black lives matter". Trump will ... who knows what he'll say.
Laws are not the answer. Frankly, at this moment it is not clear what happened and why. Time will tell.
If you really want to know the meaning of terror like the massacre in San Bernandino, it seems to me, a psychologist, that when it enters into one's unconscious realm and surfaces as a violent dream concerning a terror attack in my neighborhood as it did with me the other night that one has truly been gripped by terror. The endless mass killings by men with weapons are now an almost daily occurrence and it effects us to the very core of our being. It is not only a physical risk to our health, but it is psychologically toxic as well, especially to those who have a trauma history if not full-blown PTSD. We are all victims and will continue to be to our detriment until we muster the national will to put an end to this unnecessary reign of terror by insisting that our elected representatives follow the lead of all other western nations and put into place sensible, life-saving regulations for gun ownership. Today it's San Bernandino; yesterday it was Colorado Springs; and tomorrow it will certainly be somewhere else until we finally say "No" at the ballot box to those politicians who have our blood on their hands by opposing such legislation. To do otherwise is to be an accomplice to the continued murder of innocents.
2
Did you use the word sensible when referring to gun regulation in the US? Our elected officials serve us up every day to the NRA. The violence won't stop without a change in leadership. Our current leaders are greedy ignoramus's who serve only themselves and care nothing about US citizens or anyone for that matter. We are expendable debt slaves, nothing more. Pay your countless illegal taxes and shut up, that what politicians want from you, oh yes let's not forget they want your vote as well.
1
The image I return to again and again is the photo of a group of men with rifles strapped to their chests who insisted on visiting a Starbucks near Newtown soon after the massacre there. They were Connnecticut citizens fearing that their precious guns might be confiscated. The staff at the Starbucks closed for the day rather than serve these men. When interviewed, one portly, late middle-aged guy ranted about his constitutional rights and an overbearing government, etc, etc. It was the usual canned talking points - that toxic brew of paranoia, distrust, immaturity, and regressive selfishness. And not one word about the dead first-graders and their mostly young teachers. Or the trauma to the community. Or the nation's sorrow. No, just me and my need to carry this gun right now to this particular place. Because that's what I want.
How did we end up with so many pathologically disconnected people? Disconnected from both reality and other human beings. And also disconnected from any emotion except anger and resentment?
What we need is a radical refocus on building community. In addition, obviously, to far more restrictive gun laws. But as Trump shrieks and preens to applause and Cruz and Huckabee blame the victims for not carrying guns - how is this even a vague possibility? We are in a very bleak hour.
How did we end up with so many pathologically disconnected people? Disconnected from both reality and other human beings. And also disconnected from any emotion except anger and resentment?
What we need is a radical refocus on building community. In addition, obviously, to far more restrictive gun laws. But as Trump shrieks and preens to applause and Cruz and Huckabee blame the victims for not carrying guns - how is this even a vague possibility? We are in a very bleak hour.
3
I wish just once the commentariat would restrain itself after a mass shooting. There is no simple solution, fast fix, to the problem of mass shootings in this society and anyone thinking there is is delusional. Guns may be part of the answer, but they certainly aren't all of it. We need a future for all of our young men, we need a less polarized dialog, less profound poverty, we need more civility, less crass consumerism, superficiality. We need more sensible immigration policies - which does not mean more people we can not assimilate. We need less violent media, we need less hostile social media. This society is at war with itself and there is no quick solution: less hear the solutions from social scientists all of us can get behind, because we are all part of the causes and we should all be working toward common goal. Currently, we are not..
I support sensible gun control; I see no reason for the sale of automatic or semi-automatic assault rifles. I like to hunt and to shoot clays, but those are not hunting guns. I support checks for mental health, criminal background, and other measures to keep guns out of the hands of people that may do harm with them.
However, let's not be overly politically correct either. The San Bernardino shooting may not be a workplace violence issue. To beat that drum in the face of evidence that it may have been otherwise motivated dilutes the efforts on gun control.
I would urge the NYT to not make this a partisan issue - once again, you scream against divisiveness, and yet you pillory only Republicans, when there are gun advocates in both parties. Both sides need to enact sensible controls. And, by the way, if this was something other than workplace violence (we don't know yet and I have zero feelings one way or the other absent facts), have the temerity to report what really happened.
However, let's not be overly politically correct either. The San Bernardino shooting may not be a workplace violence issue. To beat that drum in the face of evidence that it may have been otherwise motivated dilutes the efforts on gun control.
I would urge the NYT to not make this a partisan issue - once again, you scream against divisiveness, and yet you pillory only Republicans, when there are gun advocates in both parties. Both sides need to enact sensible controls. And, by the way, if this was something other than workplace violence (we don't know yet and I have zero feelings one way or the other absent facts), have the temerity to report what really happened.
1
Calling for better gun control in the face of radical islam is like saying that everything would have been fine if we just passed a law to prohibit Nazis from acquiring weapons in WWll. Surely that would have stopped the conflict cold. Please.
To put forth such empty prescriptions as gun control in the face of this type of threat demonstrates that Liberalism/Progressivism is not only a mental disorder, it apparently becomes progressively more acute in the face of counterfactual information.
These monsters were not crazy in the pathological sense; they were radical Muslim fanatics dedicated to the destruction of western civilization. And therein lies the problem - liberals refuse to face the glaring fact that radical Islam is the problem. They instead reach for yet another law which is never followed by people like this. And in the balance, liberals and progresives would expose our country to this threat on the alter of political correctness.
To put forth such empty prescriptions as gun control in the face of this type of threat demonstrates that Liberalism/Progressivism is not only a mental disorder, it apparently becomes progressively more acute in the face of counterfactual information.
These monsters were not crazy in the pathological sense; they were radical Muslim fanatics dedicated to the destruction of western civilization. And therein lies the problem - liberals refuse to face the glaring fact that radical Islam is the problem. They instead reach for yet another law which is never followed by people like this. And in the balance, liberals and progresives would expose our country to this threat on the alter of political correctness.
If you deny them guns, won't Islamic terrorists simply resort to bombs, trucks, planes, knives and other highly effective tools for mass killing? The knee jerk response - gun control - is appealing but simplistic as a solution for this particular brand of violence.
Again into the breach. Not sure what they smoke but the highest court in this land has endorsed their 2nd amendment's "well regulated militia" that is the individual gun owner. America's primary terrorist-sponsoring bunch fires off under the lobbying banner of NRA and last year paid $20 million to purchase the silence of the US "thought and prayers" Congress. Those elected reps of the American public continue in office without injury and with great reward in personal finances and benefits for their courageous acts of whistling past the graveyard of slaughtered citizens while pretending not to recognize the American terrorists in the midst of their constituency. What a pathetic democracy this is turning out to be!
2
Since these atrocities seem to stem from rage, alienation, and disenfranchisement (and at times mental illness) controlling guns will not solve the root cause of the problem in my opinion. I am totally for gun control, but these acts of violence are the hopeless rage filled desperate acts of people who no longer value life, theirs or anyone else's. Government edicts will not fix that.
1
When innocent people in Paris are killed, we spring to action: We vow to fight and defeat ISIS; we decide to send Special Forces to Iraq to no politician's objection.
When yet another shooting happen in this country, most of the politicians express the feelings of sorrow to the victims' families, and that is it.
I hold every politician responsible for the stage of siege we all under; stage of siege where everyone of us, be it elementary school student, college student, churchgoer, cinema goer, Planned Parenthood patient, or an attendee of a Holiday Party, is a potential victim.
Say no the NRA; work toward gun control; make it top priority on your list. You, our elected representatives, have the power to change things. All it takes is to do what your elected to do: Represent your constituents, who, for the most part, want stricter control gun laws than those whom they elected.
When yet another shooting happen in this country, most of the politicians express the feelings of sorrow to the victims' families, and that is it.
I hold every politician responsible for the stage of siege we all under; stage of siege where everyone of us, be it elementary school student, college student, churchgoer, cinema goer, Planned Parenthood patient, or an attendee of a Holiday Party, is a potential victim.
Say no the NRA; work toward gun control; make it top priority on your list. You, our elected representatives, have the power to change things. All it takes is to do what your elected to do: Represent your constituents, who, for the most part, want stricter control gun laws than those whom they elected.
Unfortunately, the United States is beginning to look more and more like a failed state. Extreme, bizarre political leaders with alarming ideas, random massacres performed by people with unclear or no motives, etc.
1
The gun control argument is inadequate in the face of these events. If you look at the motivations and the planning involved, I feel they reflect back repressed and worsening issues in our social fabric. The guns are just the tool used. These people also left explosives. They were of Pakistani descent. This was planned.
Is this not looking like a case of 'if it walks like a duck?'
We are a nation of diversity at every level and aspect of life. It is what makes us great and what makes us an accident waiting to happen. These outbursts of violence seem to always come from people who are choking on, and living in a kind of invisibility. This is not to forgive their actions just an observation.
We have to work hard, very hard and quickly, in this country to community build. We are diverse but incoherent. We have to work on understanding better the ways we are marginalizing each other, and why frustration and silence can lead to outbursts of rage filled violence.
If connections between diverse citizenry can be built then there is less to fear from weapons.
Is this not looking like a case of 'if it walks like a duck?'
We are a nation of diversity at every level and aspect of life. It is what makes us great and what makes us an accident waiting to happen. These outbursts of violence seem to always come from people who are choking on, and living in a kind of invisibility. This is not to forgive their actions just an observation.
We have to work hard, very hard and quickly, in this country to community build. We are diverse but incoherent. We have to work on understanding better the ways we are marginalizing each other, and why frustration and silence can lead to outbursts of rage filled violence.
If connections between diverse citizenry can be built then there is less to fear from weapons.
1
It's not just that we have inadequate gun control laws; it's a question of a widespread acceptance that it's OK to have a gun culture in America. Until we change the general attitude toward gun ownership and start treating gun violence as a public health issue, no single gun law or regulation will change this horrible trend in our country. Congress leads symbolically, with their inaction. To date, 12,219 victims of gun violence in America this year are a testament to their indifference.
3
Guns or no guns, I find the increasingly automatic politicization of mass shootings a bit repulsive. Can we have a day of peace to at least let the victims rest in peace and find out the shooters' motives?
2
I am a gun violence survivor which has left me with acute PTSD. Yesterday's events have me, once again, headed to the Xanax bottle. Just in passing, given my volcanic temper, I should be a prohibited purchaser - I am not.
There is only one way that we are going to change our gun safety laws in this country and that is to change the make-up of Congress. Republicans are not going to suddenly become compassionate and rational when it comes to guns; Not with their symbiotic relationship with the NRA.
2016 gives us an opportunity. We have the votes but often lack the voters. It's all about turn-out.
The alternative is to go from shooting to shooting. Our interest peeks today and will wane tomorrow. If Sandy Hook didn't do it, nothing will unless we, the people, make some major changes in our representation.
Meanwhile I'll put up with people like Huckabee claiming that the problem is that there aren't enough guns. Sure Mike.
There is only one way that we are going to change our gun safety laws in this country and that is to change the make-up of Congress. Republicans are not going to suddenly become compassionate and rational when it comes to guns; Not with their symbiotic relationship with the NRA.
2016 gives us an opportunity. We have the votes but often lack the voters. It's all about turn-out.
The alternative is to go from shooting to shooting. Our interest peeks today and will wane tomorrow. If Sandy Hook didn't do it, nothing will unless we, the people, make some major changes in our representation.
Meanwhile I'll put up with people like Huckabee claiming that the problem is that there aren't enough guns. Sure Mike.
2
The term “massacre,” which means the slaughter of a large number of people, is misapplied to shootings like the Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shooting spree, which killed three people, a death toll frequently surpassed by one-car accidents. The Colorado Springs incident does not even qualify as a “mass shooting,” which is commonly categorized as an incident involving the murder of four or more people. The Justice Department classifies incidents such as the Colorado Springs and San Bernardino shooting spree as “active shooter” incidents, which it define as “an individual actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a confined and populated area.” The definition applies only to incidents involving firearms. A 2013 Justice Department study of active shooter incidents show there were 160 active shooter incidents between 2000 and 20013 that killed 486 people and wounded 557 people. The study included active shooting incidents at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut; the Cinemark Century 16 Theater in Aurora, Colorado; Virginia Tech, and Fort Hood, Texas. It showed that an average of 11.4 active shooter incidents occur each year.
1
Terrorists will always get guns, just like a drunk gets a drink.
2
But this clearly is not another American mass shooting.
1
The editorial and many posts to the comments were written before much was known. Now, more is known. The guns were bought legally and are traceable so only a repeal of the 2nd Amendment would work to prevent this in the future. The couple killed in the shootout were Muslims with very suspicious ties to the hotbeds of Islamic terrorists, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. A neighbor did not report suspicious activity at their apartment for fear of being labelled a racist. (7:47AM, Dec. 03, 2015)
330+ mass shootings this year- so far. You only hear about the big ones or maybe one on your local news. Other countries don't put up with it. Somehow we are special. Maybe it's a leftover from all those westerns in the 40's and 50's. Maybe it's the fantasy that if you just had your own concealed pistol, you could whip it out and kill those with kevlar vests and assault rifles. Or in a darkened theater you could just open up and surely one of the people you'd hit would be the bad guy. More people with more guns- Gunsmoke.
Or we can grow up and do something reasonable.
Or we can grow up and do something reasonable.
Why are assault rifles legal? Simple question. Deserves an answer. Congress, why do your "owners" want us armed to the teeth?
1
So we have a case where a man of middle eastern descent and his wife from the middle east attack his workplace dressed in combat gear and carrying numerous pipe bombs. They both recently traveled to the middle east and the man was described as having recently become very religious. More pipe bombs are found in their SUV and in their home.
Instead of the NYT using the words "terrorism" or "possible terrorism" in its reporting, it immediately trots out the same lame, tired lines about gun control in its editorial. The NYT was once a proud newspaper and could be counted on to be "All the News That's Fit to Print". Now it has become nothing more than a tool for the left wing and a lapdog for the Democratic party. If you want the unvarnished news, you had best get it elsewhere.
Instead of the NYT using the words "terrorism" or "possible terrorism" in its reporting, it immediately trots out the same lame, tired lines about gun control in its editorial. The NYT was once a proud newspaper and could be counted on to be "All the News That's Fit to Print". Now it has become nothing more than a tool for the left wing and a lapdog for the Democratic party. If you want the unvarnished news, you had best get it elsewhere.
ISIS can do nothing to us that is worse than what we have done to ourselves.
We slaughter each other on a regular basis, we spew hate, we are ruled by corporations and lobbyist - NRA and Gun Manufactures in this case - and we are entertained by trinkets, instead of holding our government accountable.
This surrender has allowed us to replaced freedom and community, with fear, hate, and isolation.
What we get from our politicos (except for Bernie Sanders) is blah, blah, blah, "sensible laws", blah blah blah, "prayer", blah, blah blah "more armed citizens". We have gone from dismay about these shootings, to deep sighs of resigned apathy in our incorporation of the horror into our everyday lives.
There is not a terrorist plot out there than can be worse than the mirror we are now being forced to hold so we can see our ugly selves as the rest of the world must see us. It leaves me heartbroken...
We slaughter each other on a regular basis, we spew hate, we are ruled by corporations and lobbyist - NRA and Gun Manufactures in this case - and we are entertained by trinkets, instead of holding our government accountable.
This surrender has allowed us to replaced freedom and community, with fear, hate, and isolation.
What we get from our politicos (except for Bernie Sanders) is blah, blah, blah, "sensible laws", blah blah blah, "prayer", blah, blah blah "more armed citizens". We have gone from dismay about these shootings, to deep sighs of resigned apathy in our incorporation of the horror into our everyday lives.
There is not a terrorist plot out there than can be worse than the mirror we are now being forced to hold so we can see our ugly selves as the rest of the world must see us. It leaves me heartbroken...
2
I want this madness to stop, too. But please, enlighten us: exactly which gun laws would accomplish this?
1
I worry almost everyday about my granddaughter. Will a shooter go to her school? Is the pool safe? What about that class field trip?
A mass shooting everyday. I didn't sleep much last night. Where can I go? What can I do?
A mass shooting everyday. I didn't sleep much last night. Where can I go? What can I do?
2
Guns that accept magazines should no longer be sold in this country. If you own a gun that accepts a mag you should be required to get liability insurance for it. People could still enjoy their guns and would quickly begin to replace them with non magazine models.
Wow.
So is everyone here convinced that this is workplace violence and not terrorism? Might be prudent to wait for the facts.
I write this of course to the censors at the NYT.
So is everyone here convinced that this is workplace violence and not terrorism? Might be prudent to wait for the facts.
I write this of course to the censors at the NYT.
2
Nothing will change until a high profile Republican gets shot. The only gun control bill ever passed in our lifetime was the Brady Bill. For those who don't remember, Jim Brady was a Republican.
3
I wonder how Big Media tv will handle overlapping, daily events because that's where we're heading. It will truly be 'breaking news' all the time.
I keep thinking of the movie Farenheit 451. The wife sitting on the couch watching the big screen while another 'terrorist' is on the loose. She's vegged out on pills to keep her happy. She watches and watches. It has become entertainment. It's almost like it has become background noise to all our lives. It is affecting us all.
How to make it stop? That's what we all want to know. How to make it stop. In America, 2015 with the NRA owning Congress....how do we make it stop?
I keep thinking of the movie Farenheit 451. The wife sitting on the couch watching the big screen while another 'terrorist' is on the loose. She's vegged out on pills to keep her happy. She watches and watches. It has become entertainment. It's almost like it has become background noise to all our lives. It is affecting us all.
How to make it stop? That's what we all want to know. How to make it stop. In America, 2015 with the NRA owning Congress....how do we make it stop?
1
So, a couple of terrorists murder inncoent people and the liberals response is to take away the guns of American citizens. Makes sense.
2
The Times is quick to call for "gun control"--profiling of purchasers, background checks, etc., designed to identify potentially troubled or violent bad actors.
I wonder if we can look forward to their calls for more rigorous scrutiny of the backgrounds and potentiality for violence of our young urban males and our friends who travel to Islamic lands?
After all, it's about public safety, right?
I wonder if we can look forward to their calls for more rigorous scrutiny of the backgrounds and potentiality for violence of our young urban males and our friends who travel to Islamic lands?
After all, it's about public safety, right?
While I'm sympathetic to the spirit of this editorial, I do not believe the horror in San Bernardino. Colorado Springs wasn't a gun control story either. Both stories were about religion and mental illness, which are often come as a package.
I don't get it. Most of these gun advocates are pro-life. How does that work? They appear to be pro-war also. Weird.
2
This was terrorism not gun violence, this was a well prepared attack on a soft target. Why does the mainstream media try to tell us who do you believe me or your lying eyes. They were muslims, the man was devout, we will find out the motivations soon. They had bombs and booby traps, he visited Saudi Arabia recently to get his wife. They were trained, they had a plan, this has nothing to do with guns other than they used them, this has to do with ideology and a twisted 14th century view of the world.
1
Blaming this on guns is like blaming airplanes for bombing London in 1940. Gun control is needed, but it's somewhat beside the point.
1
Terrorism and the Democrats and other liberal Utopia dreamers believe that destroying the second amendment and removing the right of citizens to arm themselves will solve all problems and the criminals and Muslim terrorist, which these two were, will not be able to kill again. You really can't be this stupid. No, what we need is to remove the gun free zones and allow citizens the right to arm themselves. If one person in this room had a weapon these two Muslim terrorist would not have been able to kill 14 people. Utopia doesn't exist except in the deluded minds of Democrats and Liberal loons.
2
For the Times editorial board, and all the people making the specious argument that is is a "gun control" issue:
(1) Exactly what laws would have stopped this? Assault style weapons are already banned in CA.
(2) France has a virtual total ban on guns, how did that work out in Paris?
(3) Do you really think terrorists obey gun laws?
If the new left wing response to terrorism is a call for gun control, the levels of delusion and spin have reached new heights.
(1) Exactly what laws would have stopped this? Assault style weapons are already banned in CA.
(2) France has a virtual total ban on guns, how did that work out in Paris?
(3) Do you really think terrorists obey gun laws?
If the new left wing response to terrorism is a call for gun control, the levels of delusion and spin have reached new heights.
1
I am seeing a phenomenon of late. The moment any shooting happens, the right wing/Republican lawmakers immediately start talking about mental health. And they will parse it every which way, but will make sure the conversation does not include sensible gun legislation. Which of course, makes little to no sense, as usual, coming from the gun apologists.
I think the NRA is in the middle of this messaging, and if the NYT digs deep enough, you might get the actual proof of this.
I think the NRA is in the middle of this messaging, and if the NYT digs deep enough, you might get the actual proof of this.
1
Sometimes I have the feeling that some of these mass-killers are not motivated by ideology or workplace anger. No, all they care about is scoring. Like a video game, who can score the most bodies...
2
If there were a God, S/he would fill the nightime dreams of congressmen with the horrors of mass shootings.
1
Until the 2nd Amendment is repealed we will see no progress on gun control.
1
So, has it been determined where/how they obtained the weapons used in this assault?
Obviously something needs to be done but this editorial seems more like the knee-jerk 'never waste a crisis' excuse to push the gun control agenda.
How about figuring out what happened here first (won't take long) and work to close that?
Obviously something needs to be done but this editorial seems more like the knee-jerk 'never waste a crisis' excuse to push the gun control agenda.
How about figuring out what happened here first (won't take long) and work to close that?
1
It's the same crowd who clings to their guns who also want the ACA destroyed. Just exactly how are people supposed to get access to mental health care when they can go broke as a result of an overnight stay in a hospital?
When everyone is armed, the result is anarchy. Everyone becomes a defacto member of law enforcement, yet only a few have the training needed to properly enforce the law. The result is not only people pulling guns in Home Depot parking lots to stop alleged shoplifters, but a law enforcement agency tasked with managing a weaponized populace. You want to know why the police need to use a swat team to serve a warrant? It is because who knows what arsenal lies on the other side of the door.
A weaponized society is not a civilized society. It is anarchy.
A weaponized society is not a civilized society. It is anarchy.
2
As well intended as this editorial is, it makes very little contribution to changing the status quo. It is time to quit trotting out the old bromides that the gun lobby or the republicans won't let us have a more sensible gun paradigm, and it is time to publicly explore in these pages what that alternative future would look like. One side says gun control is a fatal step to dictatorship, what does the other side say? Specifically, what workable policies can be explored here that give a vision of a solution for all concerned? Before you can have a solution you need to be able to visualize it. American politics is stuck in a stale and unproductive debate that resembles an old low calorie beer commercial. We all deserve better.
This is radical Muslim terrorism . Nothing more. Two Muslim extremist killed 14 people at a work Christmas (or Holiday) party. You'd have to blind ( or sight impaired) not to connect the dots on this attack. Did the New York times call for gun Control after the Paris attacks?? Your heart is in the right place, but its time to sit on this radical form of a beautiful religion before its to late. These type of evil and misguided people will get weapons with or without gun control.
3
If Sandy Hook didn't move legislators to do anything, I can't see how anything will. The NRA's money is more powerful than a million bullets, even those shot into kindergarteners and teachers.
Those who say guns aren't the problem are correct. Money and greed taking precedence over everything (per usual in America) is the problem. Does anyone believe that, if the NRA wasn't handing wads of cash over to Congresspeople that they'd be yawning at such carnage? Isn't it a shame that organizations that help people with developmental disabilities and mental health issues don't have the money to buy Congresspeople that the NRA has.
The other issue is mental illness. I'm stunned and curious as to why there is so much of it in America. How illustrative that it is places that help people with difficulties and schools, social services type places that struggle for funding, that get shot up by items that are fiercely protected by the gobs of money poured into Congresspeople's coffers.
Those who say guns aren't the problem are correct. Money and greed taking precedence over everything (per usual in America) is the problem. Does anyone believe that, if the NRA wasn't handing wads of cash over to Congresspeople that they'd be yawning at such carnage? Isn't it a shame that organizations that help people with developmental disabilities and mental health issues don't have the money to buy Congresspeople that the NRA has.
The other issue is mental illness. I'm stunned and curious as to why there is so much of it in America. How illustrative that it is places that help people with difficulties and schools, social services type places that struggle for funding, that get shot up by items that are fiercely protected by the gobs of money poured into Congresspeople's coffers.
1
With every mass shooting, potential shooters get the message "you can do that here. And succeed."
If guns were banned here, they would get a different message. And if they were merely restricted, they would, too.
If guns were banned here, they would get a different message. And if they were merely restricted, they would, too.
1
The fundamental lie that the gun lobby demands us to accept is that the Second Amendment says:" the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." It does NOT. The Amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The reason that we have the right to keep and bear arms is so that the people can provide security to the State in a well regulated militia. That is what the Amendment says. The Founders could have said "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." if that was their intention. They did not.
It is strange and troubling that we are afflicted with the consequences of a misreading of the Amendment. It is stranger still that adherence to this illiterate lie has become the law of the land. It is a smear on our Court and the shills that work for the gun lobby that America has been so gravely encumbered. It may be just for our people to suffer these recurrent murders as we have been complacent in permitting this perversion of the Second Amendment and the corrupt politicians who work for an evil industry that perverts our moral compass and delivers thousands of innocent dead as a result of a failure to read.
It is strange and troubling that we are afflicted with the consequences of a misreading of the Amendment. It is stranger still that adherence to this illiterate lie has become the law of the land. It is a smear on our Court and the shills that work for the gun lobby that America has been so gravely encumbered. It may be just for our people to suffer these recurrent murders as we have been complacent in permitting this perversion of the Second Amendment and the corrupt politicians who work for an evil industry that perverts our moral compass and delivers thousands of innocent dead as a result of a failure to read.
1
The country will not reform its gun laws without courageous and committed leadership. Such person/s have not yet emerged, but will do so at some future time, after countless more lives have been needlessly lost.
Can we start with banning the sale of all semiautomatic weapons. And then can we build a database of all owners of these weapons and put together a team of special forces to begin confiscating these weapons around the country. And then put the former owners of these guns in mental health facilities for six months. I just borrowed Trump's idea but applied it in a more useful way.
1
Doesn't CA have some of the most stringent gun laws in the United States? Although not opposed to the possibility of some tighter regulations on gun control, save for eliminating the second amendment, what specific gun law(s) could have prevented this unspeakable act from occurring?
15
I fully agree with your reader who wrote: "When will we as Americans learn that the Second Amendment was not designed to permit any person to aquire a weapon [that could threaten our fellow citizens]? How many more need to die? We should be able to trust our government, police and armed forces to protect us."
It is an error to interpret the Second Amendment to allow guns to fall into the hands of private individuals, even if this is the interpretation of the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court can and does commit errors. Sadly and unfortunately the Supreme Court practically has the last word, but that doesn't make its Decisions free of errors. The Court's Decision in the case involving the Second Amendment was not 9-0 but 5-4. The 4 Dissenters contended that the Majority had erred.
It is an error to interpret the Second Amendment to allow guns to fall into the hands of private individuals, even if this is the interpretation of the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court can and does commit errors. Sadly and unfortunately the Supreme Court practically has the last word, but that doesn't make its Decisions free of errors. The Court's Decision in the case involving the Second Amendment was not 9-0 but 5-4. The 4 Dissenters contended that the Majority had erred.
1
Watching the news coverage of this last mass shooting, I see most of the police officers carrying rapid fire rifles. I would be willing to bet that everyone of them was trained on how to fire them; how to keep them safe. I'll bet that they were vetted and highly trained before they were allowed to handle those weapons. Why can't we demand the same standards for the civilian population that want to own these dangerous weapons?
If you want to convince people such as myself to support reasonable gun control measures, then you should stop conflating terrorist attacks with the need for gun control. I support reasonable gun control but the horror in San Bernadino is not a reason for it. Gun control will not prevent premeditated terrorist attacks such as occurred yesterday. Gun sales will spike following yesterday's massacre, as they do after every mass shooting, because law abiding citizens see a rational need to defend themselves. A well armed and properly trained citizenry, as exists in Israel, would provide a better defense to this form of gun violence than to disarm the citizenry. So if you must talk about gun control - a valid and worthy goal - don't use terrorist shootings to make your point. You will not persuade those you seek to persuade.
1
Do we know how the weapons were acquired? Can you assure me with your stricter gun control the person coming at me does not have a gun? CA has some of USA's toughest gun laws. Your editorial is a rush to judgement.
1
I think it's time to start showing the bodies. Let's see the rooms as first responders see them. Let's see what someone's mother, aunt, sister, uncle, dad, brother, grandparent, or child looks like with a gunshot to the face. Let's see what the shooters look like after they blow out their own brains or get riddled with police bullets.
Why not? Too graphic? Afraid everyone will be desensitized? Afraid children might see it?
Here's some news: the world is already filled to the brim with graphic imagery. Everyone already is desensitized. Children are growing up in this world as it is, not as we wish it to be. Show the reality of it, not as people imagine it in their TV brains but as it is, and maybe more people will be motivated to change it.
Why not? Too graphic? Afraid everyone will be desensitized? Afraid children might see it?
Here's some news: the world is already filled to the brim with graphic imagery. Everyone already is desensitized. Children are growing up in this world as it is, not as we wish it to be. Show the reality of it, not as people imagine it in their TV brains but as it is, and maybe more people will be motivated to change it.
1
"...Congress has allowed the domestic gun industry to use assorted loopholes to sell arsenals that are used against innocent Americans who cannot hide."
There are two kinds of loopholes: The unintended that are easily closed as soon as they are discovered and the ones that are crafted to shield people, like the gun industry who pay out great amounts of money for the privilege, from the effects of the Laws they are written in. The process is called corruption.
There are two kinds of loopholes: The unintended that are easily closed as soon as they are discovered and the ones that are crafted to shield people, like the gun industry who pay out great amounts of money for the privilege, from the effects of the Laws they are written in. The process is called corruption.
The NRA and its supporters wants civilian life to be a war zone. The vast majority want to live in peace. Why is all of Washington in thrall to the warmongers?
1
I've never held a gun in my hands in my life, and never will. I know it's bizarre to say this in this country but I'm proud of it. For most this would define me as being not-American, which is a sad testament to how bad things have gotten. Recently someone jokingly responded to this with, "Oh, you must be from Canada." He was right...
2
It is a bit hard to discern, but general research shows gun ownership is down. However the lethality and number of weapons among those that possess these weapons is up. The latter has cancelled out the former. A single person now has the ability to kill more accurately and in greater numbers. What is missing is the attachment to our fellow country persons, and care for their welfare. Instead we have a segment of the population that sees themselves constantly vulnerable to attack or killing has risen to the status of being a solution to their anger.
Either we are a united country that seeks to build welcoming, harm free neighborhoods with decent sustainability or we continue to silo dangerous attitudes out of our sight. Somehow other countries keep their citizens safe by inculcating an appreciation of civilization as opposed to the wild west. It is time we did the same.
Either we are a united country that seeks to build welcoming, harm free neighborhoods with decent sustainability or we continue to silo dangerous attitudes out of our sight. Somehow other countries keep their citizens safe by inculcating an appreciation of civilization as opposed to the wild west. It is time we did the same.
1
I wake up most mornings now with reticence as I open up the times online...Will there have been another mass shooting or terrorist attack? Is this anyway that we should be raising children in the United States. Teaching them to always been in fear?
3
The NRA response to the latest gun atrocity will be that if the victims were carrying guns or if the facility had armed guards the shooters would have been fended off. The appropriate response is that if the shooters did not have guns they could not have carried out their murderous attack.
2
The argument for better mental health support is ludicrous because anyone with this much anger and resolve is not seeking a therapist. They are seeking to to go down in a blaze of glory. Unadjusted losers are simply that because they don't recognize the fact that is what they are so the idea that they will walk into a clinic to get treatment is not feasible.
What we need to do is recognize the odd behavior of these people and report it to authorities to possibly monitor them. We already do it in domestic disputes with restraining orders. These people are murderous cowards and without a gun most likely couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag.
I am really not against guns because I do think certain people need them. Rural areas, hunters, range shooters, great. We aren't going to confiscate them so let's make it mandatory to insure them. It could bring all our premiums down for when some psycho shoots us!
What we need to do is recognize the odd behavior of these people and report it to authorities to possibly monitor them. We already do it in domestic disputes with restraining orders. These people are murderous cowards and without a gun most likely couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag.
I am really not against guns because I do think certain people need them. Rural areas, hunters, range shooters, great. We aren't going to confiscate them so let's make it mandatory to insure them. It could bring all our premiums down for when some psycho shoots us!
1
These are widely shared views on the Upper East Side of Manhattan - but shared in very little of the rest of the country.
5
We need strict interpretation of the constitution. It talks about "well regulated militia" - let us stick to it. If you want a gun you must belong to National Guard, pass gun use training and yearly tests, store it safely, have it registered by the Guard, etc. Guns should be regulated as least as strictly as cars and driving. If NRA feels that citizens should have the right to carry guns every place, they should start with permitting guns into their national and other meetings-I understand that they do not, so far. Are they afraid? They should also add the text "well regulated militia" on their headquarters. The Supreme Court once in effect nullified the meaning of "well regulated militia", but they were wrong. They also had reaffirmed legality of slavery and we got rid of that.
4
Only the NYT Ed Board and its vigorously nodding followers will choose to ignore the fact that this was (1) a planned, coordinated effort by (2) at least two, likely three, individuals who (3) appear to be devout Muslims and (4) were determined to carry out murder.
Is it possible that Islam had something to do with this? Sure. Is it possible it didn't? Possibly. However, to blindly ignore the context of a world thrown into a maelstrom of violence and hatred fueled by radical Islam, and then criticize or deny the quite justifiable concern that this may be part of a worsening global pattern, as many commenters in the NYT seem to be doing, is abject idiocy.
Is it possible that Islam had something to do with this? Sure. Is it possible it didn't? Possibly. However, to blindly ignore the context of a world thrown into a maelstrom of violence and hatred fueled by radical Islam, and then criticize or deny the quite justifiable concern that this may be part of a worsening global pattern, as many commenters in the NYT seem to be doing, is abject idiocy.
4
If it is the gun's fault and not the shooter, then we should severely limit the use of automobiles because of traffic deaths. Bad driver, drunk driver, it was the car's fault. The same with illegal and dangerous drugs. The heroin or cocaine killed the teenager, not the drug dealer.
The liberal elite in this country are pathetic. They attempt to attack the Republican party and its' politicians for being responsible for the crime and terrorism committed by Farook and Tashfee Malik, Major Nidal Hasan who murdered 13 soldiers and civilians at Ft. Hood, Texas (it was the gun's fault) , Faisal Shahzad, (he tried to blow up his SUV in Times Square, which is another good reason beyond global warming to ban SUVs), and Muhammad Abdulaziz who killed four Marines and a sailor in Tennessee, (again the gun's fault).
Maybe the left-wing intellectuals and politicians should consider the actual threat, which is Islamic radicalism, a term that the President is incapable of saying. My handgun is already registered at the Federal, State and municipal level, but I will be only to willing to register it again if the question on whether the gun purchaser is a radical Muslim is added to the questions on prior felony convictions, domestic abuse convictions and mental illness. That surely will solve the gun violence problem.
The liberal elite in this country are pathetic. They attempt to attack the Republican party and its' politicians for being responsible for the crime and terrorism committed by Farook and Tashfee Malik, Major Nidal Hasan who murdered 13 soldiers and civilians at Ft. Hood, Texas (it was the gun's fault) , Faisal Shahzad, (he tried to blow up his SUV in Times Square, which is another good reason beyond global warming to ban SUVs), and Muhammad Abdulaziz who killed four Marines and a sailor in Tennessee, (again the gun's fault).
Maybe the left-wing intellectuals and politicians should consider the actual threat, which is Islamic radicalism, a term that the President is incapable of saying. My handgun is already registered at the Federal, State and municipal level, but I will be only to willing to register it again if the question on whether the gun purchaser is a radical Muslim is added to the questions on prior felony convictions, domestic abuse convictions and mental illness. That surely will solve the gun violence problem.
3
It is clear that NOTHING, not even the deaths of little children will stop the gun lovers from doing anything to curb the sale of guns whatsoever despite the fact that SOMETHING needs to be done. Since we clearly cannot do anything about the guns, we should restrict the sale of bullets. Why not create our own loophole to prevent these horrors that happen on a daily basis.
2
Most comments I've read have basically said, "There is nothing we can do about this because the US is inherently violent and you can't take our guns. " Proof positive that we need more mental health services! Most gun owners are being duped by the NRA. Their primary focus is not defending the second amendment. It's profits for gun manufacturers! They tell you lies like Obama is going to take all your guns, when nothing of the sort is true. Then the NRA and gun manufacturers donate obscene amounts of money to key elected officials to make sure that nothing happens legislatively to disrupt profits!
It's not just the US that has a culture of violence, many countries do. That is no excuse for giving up. It is time that the US collectively grows up and becomes a responsible world power. Changes to gun laws and more mental health facilities won't prevent all murders, mass or otherwise. But, if we can keep some of the guns out of some potential murders hands with sensible reforms that actually have a chance of making an impact or at the very least make it easier for law enforcement to do their jobs, wouldn't it be worth it? I challenge gun advocates to lead the way in making this situation better. Sit down and have meaningful dialog, research solutions and then implement the best of them. Your resistance to participating in this is exactly what will bring about that which you fear most: a police state. I can't believe no one sees this? Are US citizens stupid as they are violent?
It's not just the US that has a culture of violence, many countries do. That is no excuse for giving up. It is time that the US collectively grows up and becomes a responsible world power. Changes to gun laws and more mental health facilities won't prevent all murders, mass or otherwise. But, if we can keep some of the guns out of some potential murders hands with sensible reforms that actually have a chance of making an impact or at the very least make it easier for law enforcement to do their jobs, wouldn't it be worth it? I challenge gun advocates to lead the way in making this situation better. Sit down and have meaningful dialog, research solutions and then implement the best of them. Your resistance to participating in this is exactly what will bring about that which you fear most: a police state. I can't believe no one sees this? Are US citizens stupid as they are violent?
2
At one time in our country, Congress passed legislation that controlled both the types of firearms that could be purchased and by whom. Legislation also required that dealers be regularly inspected for conformance with the laws and gun owners be registered.
Ronald Reagan's embrace of the south and the right wing began unraveling this legislation and republican party politics have continued to undermine it to this day.
I've used an M-16 in Vietnam. There is absolutely zero reason why any civilian should have such a weapon even if the fully automatic function is disabled. Fact is that semi automatic is the best setting for killing people because of accuracy reasons. Nor is there any reason whatsoever why any civilian should have any weapon with large capacity magazines. None.
That said, creating common sense gun controls will not stop such actions as San Bernardino, especially if its proven that terrorism is the underlying cause. Terrorists will have their own arsenals and will find ways to murder innocents. That's what terrorists do. We just don't have to make their lives easier.
It is a canard of the lowest order for republican politicians to claim that unrestricted gun ownership is good for this country. It's not, as our murder rate clearly attests. Lax gun laws are only good for the Faustian bargain that republican politicians have made with the right wing for the purpose of gaining political power in this country.
Ronald Reagan's embrace of the south and the right wing began unraveling this legislation and republican party politics have continued to undermine it to this day.
I've used an M-16 in Vietnam. There is absolutely zero reason why any civilian should have such a weapon even if the fully automatic function is disabled. Fact is that semi automatic is the best setting for killing people because of accuracy reasons. Nor is there any reason whatsoever why any civilian should have any weapon with large capacity magazines. None.
That said, creating common sense gun controls will not stop such actions as San Bernardino, especially if its proven that terrorism is the underlying cause. Terrorists will have their own arsenals and will find ways to murder innocents. That's what terrorists do. We just don't have to make their lives easier.
It is a canard of the lowest order for republican politicians to claim that unrestricted gun ownership is good for this country. It's not, as our murder rate clearly attests. Lax gun laws are only good for the Faustian bargain that republican politicians have made with the right wing for the purpose of gaining political power in this country.
3
Has anyone considered what effect these shootings will have on the children, and how they will perceive and value life as adults? I say, this, as I remember my own mother warning us as children, "there will be blood running down the street, someday." (Of course, we thought she was crazy - it couldn't happen. Now, I wonder if she wasn't trying to prepare us for the horrors we would witness.)
2
I think anybody (criminal or mentally ill) who has been arrested and in court over an illegal violent act should be denied the right to register AK47 type guns, but allowed to register and buy a hand gun to defend their selves in their home, without a right to concealment or open-carry. (Allowing criminals and the mentally ill the right to register a handgun for their home gives law enforcement an ability to track their personal guns in any crime; therefore, it can also help protect the public and deter criminals and the mentally ill from using their handguns in crimes.)
It seems to me, that giving people the right to defend their selves with any guns in the home, no matter whom the guns might belong to, might be the only decent thing for the government to do and the public (pro-gun or not) to support. We must support the amendment in our Constitution that protects self-defense for ‘all’.
I support background checks, but I also ask if it is the people who think they need an ‘AK47’ to defend their selves that might as well ‘be’ the paranoid and mentally ill, when they appear to be part of the gun brainwashed. (Perhaps we just want ‘AK47-control’, mentally and physically.)
It seems to me, that giving people the right to defend their selves with any guns in the home, no matter whom the guns might belong to, might be the only decent thing for the government to do and the public (pro-gun or not) to support. We must support the amendment in our Constitution that protects self-defense for ‘all’.
I support background checks, but I also ask if it is the people who think they need an ‘AK47’ to defend their selves that might as well ‘be’ the paranoid and mentally ill, when they appear to be part of the gun brainwashed. (Perhaps we just want ‘AK47-control’, mentally and physically.)
These routine mass slaughters are more proof of US failure. Blame lies mainly at the feet of Republicans immersed in warped ideology/lobbyist dollars AND with weak politicians, mostly Democratic, lacking the courage to stand for both justice and sanity
3
The inaction of our lawmakers has allowed these mass shootings to continue. Obviously, the current control of firearm sales is allowing too many guns to get into the hands of the wrong people. Something needs to be done.
It can no longer be left in the hands of the civil population. We need smarter law makers to create smarter laws to manage gun sales and gun ownership.
It can no longer be left in the hands of the civil population. We need smarter law makers to create smarter laws to manage gun sales and gun ownership.
1
Can you really tie the 185,000 Americans who bought legal guns on Black Friday to two married Muslim killers, one American, one Saudi, who murdered at least 14 other people in San Bernardino? Do you really think that some marginal law on a particular weapon, or magazine clip size will do anything? If this paper wishes to advocate for a 'solution' then advocate for a change to the Second Amendment. Start that push, that campaign for hearts, minds and votes. Yet another editorial about more gun laws, absent Constitutional change is just politics as usual and will be totally ineffective.
2
I grew up in South Carolina. Today, I would call my state “very gun friendly.” But, that has not always been the case. When I was younger, pistols were much more regulated in SC than they are now. It used to be that if you were caught with a pistol, say under the seat of your car, you faced some very heavy penalties; including, real jail time. The feeling was that owning a pistol was “more trouble than it was worth.” There seemed to be a stigma associated with pistols. People weren’t particularly comfortable with them. So, there was greater gun control before, and perhaps it worked. Now days, when you read about someone being charged with murder or armed robbery – generally using a pistol – invariably the perpetrator has had a series of “weapons violations” pending or “thrown out” or the prosecutors had more important charges to deal with. The press often describes weapons violations as “miscellaneous prior charges” . . . as if they were sort of humdrum, common place offences. The thing is that If you want stricter gun control (and I do) you have got to understand that a lot of people are going to have to go to prison to affect the change you are looking for. You can’t just put the laws on the books and stop there - now or in the future.
2
The fact is that in countries like Australia mass shootings have stopped since strict gun laws were enacted in response to terrible massacres. The same needs to be done here. But I dare say, that until voters of this country recognize that the Republican party has lost all credibility, has become a crypto fascist group, relies on unstable gun nuts as part of their "base" to get elected, and until they are swept out of office in record numbers we will not get sane policies on the national level.
Connect the dots people. Fiorina hysterical screaming about writhing infants and the planned parenthood shooting, etc. etc.
If all people have are their fists then only so much damage can be done. If Republicans won't participate in sensible guns laws it's time to throw them out of office in record numbers. Only then will we have a chance at bringing sanity to our national gun policies.
Connect the dots people. Fiorina hysterical screaming about writhing infants and the planned parenthood shooting, etc. etc.
If all people have are their fists then only so much damage can be done. If Republicans won't participate in sensible guns laws it's time to throw them out of office in record numbers. Only then will we have a chance at bringing sanity to our national gun policies.
1
Let's do nothing. Not a single thing.
Tainted Tylenol, toxic shock causing tampons, Takata airbags, GM ignition switchs, silicone breast implants, asbestos, cigarettes:
If any other product were as responsible for a small fraction of the deaths that guns are, there would be an immediate pulling from the shelves of that item, and a complete mobilization of opponents, pundits and politicians, lawsuits and legislation preventing any sale of that product until a safe alternative could be found, or if not, relegate it to the dust bins of history.
Because of protection by the Constitution, the NRA, and the Republicans, "Greatest Nation in the World" is powerless to solve this self-perpetuatng conundrum: Mass Shooting occurs, gun sales spike to record levels, New mass shooting occurs. Lather, Rinse Repeat. Where will it all end?
Tainted Tylenol, toxic shock causing tampons, Takata airbags, GM ignition switchs, silicone breast implants, asbestos, cigarettes:
If any other product were as responsible for a small fraction of the deaths that guns are, there would be an immediate pulling from the shelves of that item, and a complete mobilization of opponents, pundits and politicians, lawsuits and legislation preventing any sale of that product until a safe alternative could be found, or if not, relegate it to the dust bins of history.
Because of protection by the Constitution, the NRA, and the Republicans, "Greatest Nation in the World" is powerless to solve this self-perpetuatng conundrum: Mass Shooting occurs, gun sales spike to record levels, New mass shooting occurs. Lather, Rinse Repeat. Where will it all end?
3
Get rid of the guns, but stop turning a blind eye to the nature of this incident. Is it merely a coincidence that these two people share the same religion as the Paris terrorists? The Times picks up on the strand of the story that supports their view on guns but ignores the aspects that are inconsistent with their open border view of immigration.
1
After Colorado Springs, liberal commentators, like here, suggested that the "inflammatory rhetoric" of Republicans, and other people who hate the idea of killing babies for body parts, contributed to the motivation for the shooting. But when two Muslims, one apparently from, and one recently traveling to Saudi Arabia carry out a planned tactical assault on a holiday party, suddenly the possession of firearms is the issue. When will the supposed intelligentsia use its intelligence? Guns are objects used by people with desires and wills. Mental health is a concern because it affects an individuals motivation. Radical Islam likewise perverts and distorts the desires and motivations of individuals, and it is time to recognize that. Stop pretending like firearms are the only issue. No one blames their forks for their overeating.
Personally, I believe as a society slouching towards insanity, that we have abdicated our Second Amendment rights and I further believe that should be repealed and gun confiscation the law of the land. And I grew up a recreational shooter and one-time member of the NRA; I get the appeal. But this is modern insane America where yahoo-oligarchy dictates policy, when it functions at all and most of Congress is in the pocket of the NRA. However, this incident isn't really about gun control, is it? The killer couple are Islamic, aren't they? You cannot say all Islamics are terrorists (although I would argue the seeds of tribal xenophobia and exhortations for onslought are inherent in Koran), but ever since Tim McVeigh, all terrorists ARE Muslim. I fear there is no protection against these rampages. God is not so great.
1
Gun control helps prevent impulsive killings by gun owners, since people without guns who become suddenly angry have a harder time killing. It does nothing to prevent premeditated terrorism. Anders Brievik and the Paris killers got their guns despite gun control. Gun control would have done nothing to stop the killings in San Bernardino.
1
Out of curiosity, I googled the name "Farook". Apparently, in Arabic, it means "he who distinguishes between right and wrong."
One can only conclude there is no one with that mind-set on the NY Times Editorial Board.
Perhaps, possibly, maybe the problem on this particular shooting in San Bernadino does not relate to gun laws - perhaps, possibly, maybe it relates to mental illness - or perhaps, possibly, maybe it relates to people with an agenda of killing for purposes that are connected religious extremism.
Perhaps, possibly, maybe the killers perceived it as an issue between Right (killing Americans) and Wrong (letting Americans live).
But, that type of analysis requires some wisdom, which is sorely lacking on the NY Times Editorial Board. So much easier to go to the default position of seeing it as a gun issue. Apart from the pipe bombs that the killers also had - the NY Times Editorial Board will no doubt soon come out in favor of Pipe Control Laws.
The Farooks of the world will no doubt be checking the laws before embarking on killing sprees and say: "Oops, we can't use guns, that's against the law. We can't use pipes, that's against the law. We'd love to kill people, but we can't break the law doing that. It would be wrong."
One can only conclude there is no one with that mind-set on the NY Times Editorial Board.
Perhaps, possibly, maybe the problem on this particular shooting in San Bernadino does not relate to gun laws - perhaps, possibly, maybe it relates to mental illness - or perhaps, possibly, maybe it relates to people with an agenda of killing for purposes that are connected religious extremism.
Perhaps, possibly, maybe the killers perceived it as an issue between Right (killing Americans) and Wrong (letting Americans live).
But, that type of analysis requires some wisdom, which is sorely lacking on the NY Times Editorial Board. So much easier to go to the default position of seeing it as a gun issue. Apart from the pipe bombs that the killers also had - the NY Times Editorial Board will no doubt soon come out in favor of Pipe Control Laws.
The Farooks of the world will no doubt be checking the laws before embarking on killing sprees and say: "Oops, we can't use guns, that's against the law. We can't use pipes, that's against the law. We'd love to kill people, but we can't break the law doing that. It would be wrong."
1
We must choose.
Either confiscate all guns, or accept that we will continue to have periodic mass murders. With the number of guns in the United States, there is no middle ground.
In the near terms, confiscation is a political non-starter. So we'll go on and on about "more sensible gun laws" and maybe even enact a few of them. But it will make no difference.
We must choose.
Either confiscate all guns, or accept that we will continue to have periodic mass murders. With the number of guns in the United States, there is no middle ground.
In the near terms, confiscation is a political non-starter. So we'll go on and on about "more sensible gun laws" and maybe even enact a few of them. But it will make no difference.
We must choose.
1
On the Daily Show, Trevor Noah said someone suggested letting football fans bring their guns to the games to help protect the people in case of an attack.
Let's do that one better and allow for guns in Congress. Maybe after spending time looking at the dangerous end of a barrel, some of our senators and representatives might see the point.
Let's do that one better and allow for guns in Congress. Maybe after spending time looking at the dangerous end of a barrel, some of our senators and representatives might see the point.
3
Here's the dilemma: The GOP, the NRA, Rush Limbaugh, Carly Fiorina, Mike Huckabee and the rest of the whole sorry cohort know they have blood on their hands. But psychological studies have shown that when people's false ideologies are exposed, they don't give them up, they double down rather than endure the hit to their egos that admitting to their foolishness would represent. That goes double for the kind of pathological narcissists currently running for office and their enablers.
And yes, the guns are out there. So start with registration, licensing, and requiring insurance (boatloads of insurance).
And the idea that we can all be on red alert all the time, ever watchful of the "bad guy with the gun," relentlessly vigilant without ever dropping our guard as we try to create art, teach children, do our jobs is absurd.
And yes, the guns are out there. So start with registration, licensing, and requiring insurance (boatloads of insurance).
And the idea that we can all be on red alert all the time, ever watchful of the "bad guy with the gun," relentlessly vigilant without ever dropping our guard as we try to create art, teach children, do our jobs is absurd.
3
It should be clear to all observers that a significant change has occurred in the American psyche. Random police executions, mass murders by citizens, a voluntary arming of the citizenry, and a paralysis on the part of the government in the face of this chaos.
The New York Times can play a significant role in leading the discussion for a solution by gathering the best scholars to publish both their diagnosis of the problem as well as their solutions. This effort can include videos of the academics presenting their positions.
I challenge the Times to begin this journalistic effort as soon as possible.
The New York Times can play a significant role in leading the discussion for a solution by gathering the best scholars to publish both their diagnosis of the problem as well as their solutions. This effort can include videos of the academics presenting their positions.
I challenge the Times to begin this journalistic effort as soon as possible.
2
Guns and big money—unique in US. If Hillary as president is serious about overturning Citizens United as she says, we might have a chance at eventually being freed up to change our gun laws.
Big money’s hold on lawmakers is one of the main factors, and we can’t proceed to gun safety without reforming that 1st.
Yes, there are many factors, but the big block to progress is NRA money and its stranglehold. Their propaganda reinforces the gun obsessives’ fears of big govt taking away their ‘freedoms’. Opposition is weak. The country is in the grip of excessive paranoia.
Obama on the public shootings said we’re the only developed country where these horrendous public shootings keep occurring with regularity. Dozens of other countries have saner gun laws, without gun lobby pressure, and gun laws are accepted enough so their rw parties don’t try to reverse them.
The US media should interview citizens who have lived abroad, and discuss the attitudes that contrast with ours that ensure more safety for their citizens. Their children have a much better chance of living out their life spans, than Americans.
Also promote and spread the views of US gun owners and NRA members who want stricter gun laws and background checks.
Also ensure the keeping of federal statistics on our epidemic of shootings, including domestic terrorism attacks. We need this data base to be kept and discussed, to prevent the NRA from substituting their own distortion of reality.
Big money’s hold on lawmakers is one of the main factors, and we can’t proceed to gun safety without reforming that 1st.
Yes, there are many factors, but the big block to progress is NRA money and its stranglehold. Their propaganda reinforces the gun obsessives’ fears of big govt taking away their ‘freedoms’. Opposition is weak. The country is in the grip of excessive paranoia.
Obama on the public shootings said we’re the only developed country where these horrendous public shootings keep occurring with regularity. Dozens of other countries have saner gun laws, without gun lobby pressure, and gun laws are accepted enough so their rw parties don’t try to reverse them.
The US media should interview citizens who have lived abroad, and discuss the attitudes that contrast with ours that ensure more safety for their citizens. Their children have a much better chance of living out their life spans, than Americans.
Also promote and spread the views of US gun owners and NRA members who want stricter gun laws and background checks.
Also ensure the keeping of federal statistics on our epidemic of shootings, including domestic terrorism attacks. We need this data base to be kept and discussed, to prevent the NRA from substituting their own distortion of reality.
1
In light of these daily occurrences, I propose a change in our pledge of allegiance:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.
My heart goes out to the victims of today's shooting."
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.
My heart goes out to the victims of today's shooting."
1
I just checked the 2nd Ammendment. There's a part in there about "a well regulated militia". Does anybody know this?? It's right there, all in the same sentence!
It's as if I said, "I know I can't, but sometimes I feel like I can fly like Superman", and having an entire cult base their beliefs on me actually flying like Superman.
It's as if I said, "I know I can't, but sometimes I feel like I can fly like Superman", and having an entire cult base their beliefs on me actually flying like Superman.
1
Other nations like Australia, etc, reacted in sane ways to their shootings. They didn’t let it metastasize. The US by not taking sane action, lets these spectacular massacres continue, amplified in media, inspiring the demented with easy access to weapons to act out their hateful fantasies.
The US gun lovers’ motto is -- these deaths are the price we pay for gun freedom. And this nonsense flourishes with our campaign finance system, with gun profits’ effects on lawmakers reverberating through our society in many ways. Today, another case of multiple deaths.
The countries with sane gun laws happen to be those with more public, less private financing of elections, which frees up lawmakers from dominance by special financial interests.
The NRA is like an enemy from within, it’s effects spreading death and terror, and always ready with pious excuses in the name of Freedom from Big Govt. It is using our own Constitution against us.
The US media needs to get new viewpoints into our gun debates, by prominently featuring:
1. Gun owners who favor strict gun laws—in ALL states.
2. Citizens who live or have lived in civilized countries with gun safety laws, where even their right wing parties don’t push guns for all, and aren’t dependent on gun lobby financing.
We need media testimony with positive role models that work and that will shine a spotlight on the US abnormality in the civilized world.
The US gun lovers’ motto is -- these deaths are the price we pay for gun freedom. And this nonsense flourishes with our campaign finance system, with gun profits’ effects on lawmakers reverberating through our society in many ways. Today, another case of multiple deaths.
The countries with sane gun laws happen to be those with more public, less private financing of elections, which frees up lawmakers from dominance by special financial interests.
The NRA is like an enemy from within, it’s effects spreading death and terror, and always ready with pious excuses in the name of Freedom from Big Govt. It is using our own Constitution against us.
The US media needs to get new viewpoints into our gun debates, by prominently featuring:
1. Gun owners who favor strict gun laws—in ALL states.
2. Citizens who live or have lived in civilized countries with gun safety laws, where even their right wing parties don’t push guns for all, and aren’t dependent on gun lobby financing.
We need media testimony with positive role models that work and that will shine a spotlight on the US abnormality in the civilized world.
1
It is so pitiful and pathetic that the richest, most powerful nation in the world says it is simply helpless and cannot do what all other advanced nations have done to protect its citizens. The United States is a failed nation.
2
I agree with this article. I used to be a person that would agree for more mental healthcare. However, I recently had to write a paper on this for a class and it opened my eyes. I realized that calling for an increase in mental healthcare was more of a cop out than a solution. We need to attack the problem directly if we are to get any good results. My opinion is that this starts with a fixed regulatory system, and then a compromise between parties on gun control.
1
Can we tolerate these attacks in the current era? If these events had occurred in Nigeria or East Africa or Syria, we'd shrug them off. However, they've happened here and now. The 7th century has struck us. Jihad is here.
2
I am still amazed by all the people commenting it is not a gun policy problem. In my country (Southern Europe) it is almost impossible to own a gun, and if done, the gun must be dismounted at all times. Nobody is allowed to own an automatic gun, such as a Kalashnikov, except the army. We never, EVER have gun shootings. Police almost never shoots, not even show their guns.
In the country I live in, in Northern Europe, there has not been a shooting since 2011 (the Breivik far-right terrorist attack) and police has shoot their guns twice in two or three years, with no casualties. The gun-control regulation is also very strict.
In USA there is one mass shooting almost every day, not counting other shootings: police, robberies, domestic violence, gang violence, etc.
So yes, I think it is quite more difficult to have a shooting if people do not have guns. And I do not think it is necessary for your own protection to have an arsenal that would make Rambo cry of happiness.
In the country I live in, in Northern Europe, there has not been a shooting since 2011 (the Breivik far-right terrorist attack) and police has shoot their guns twice in two or three years, with no casualties. The gun-control regulation is also very strict.
In USA there is one mass shooting almost every day, not counting other shootings: police, robberies, domestic violence, gang violence, etc.
So yes, I think it is quite more difficult to have a shooting if people do not have guns. And I do not think it is necessary for your own protection to have an arsenal that would make Rambo cry of happiness.
87
I felt deep sadness for the people of France after their terrorist attack. But we have those incidents almost daily here in the States and hardly stop to look anymore. 24 killed in a kindergarten; for our politicians it's ho hum and too soon to deal with it because we might be too emotional. Whatever that's supposed to mean. We have 30,000 gun deaths a year and the French have 330. They would have to have a Paris attack every day to keep up with us. When is enough finally going to be enough?
2
"Guns are deeply rooted within Swiss culture - but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1566715.stm)
Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world (ranking below only the US, Serbia, and Yemen); and yet, it has one of the lowest gun crime rates (~ 0.3/100K pop./yr).
Interestingly, Swiss men are given an M-57 assault rifle and ammunition which they are required to keep at home, there are few restrictions on buying weapons, the government sells off surplus weaponry to the general public, and guns and shooting are popular national pastimes.
Guns are also deeply rooted in American culture; and yet, America has a much higher gun crime rate (~3.8/100K pop./yr). So, what's behind the different gun crime rates? According to the BBC article, "[Switzerland] has none of the social problems associated with gun crime seen in other industrialised countries like drugs or urban deprivation.”
To blame guns for our nation's gun crime rate is delusional. Our nation has always had high gun ownership. It has only been in the last several years that our gun crime rate has soared - right along with soaring drug use, soaring divorce rates, soaring out-of-wedlock births, soaring STD rates, soaring prescription drug use, soaring entitlement, etc, etc, etc…ad nauseum.
All of these issues share a root cause. Address the root cause, and you not only reduce the gun crime rate, you address all the other issues, as well.
Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world (ranking below only the US, Serbia, and Yemen); and yet, it has one of the lowest gun crime rates (~ 0.3/100K pop./yr).
Interestingly, Swiss men are given an M-57 assault rifle and ammunition which they are required to keep at home, there are few restrictions on buying weapons, the government sells off surplus weaponry to the general public, and guns and shooting are popular national pastimes.
Guns are also deeply rooted in American culture; and yet, America has a much higher gun crime rate (~3.8/100K pop./yr). So, what's behind the different gun crime rates? According to the BBC article, "[Switzerland] has none of the social problems associated with gun crime seen in other industrialised countries like drugs or urban deprivation.”
To blame guns for our nation's gun crime rate is delusional. Our nation has always had high gun ownership. It has only been in the last several years that our gun crime rate has soared - right along with soaring drug use, soaring divorce rates, soaring out-of-wedlock births, soaring STD rates, soaring prescription drug use, soaring entitlement, etc, etc, etc…ad nauseum.
All of these issues share a root cause. Address the root cause, and you not only reduce the gun crime rate, you address all the other issues, as well.
4
Surely there are an equal proportion of "mentally unstable " people in other 1st world countries , so why aren't there an equal proportion of mass killings in Great Britain , Germany, France , Italy , Spain , Canada , Australia, China, Japan ? Do these countries have a more comprehensive mental health care system than USA?
I suspect it is more to do with proliferation of guns.
NRA and your supporters , what do you suggest as a solution? Daily mass murders have to stop ( or at least a significant reduction).
There was courage to stop accepted heinous actions over the last few decades to reduce drunk driving deaths and domestic violence. The same courage will be needed for a solution these mass murders.
Why is it the strongest are the least courageous?
NRA are bullies.
I suspect it is more to do with proliferation of guns.
NRA and your supporters , what do you suggest as a solution? Daily mass murders have to stop ( or at least a significant reduction).
There was courage to stop accepted heinous actions over the last few decades to reduce drunk driving deaths and domestic violence. The same courage will be needed for a solution these mass murders.
Why is it the strongest are the least courageous?
NRA are bullies.
1
Two points that I always come back to when the gun debate heats up: one, it's legal to own an assault rifle but not a bullet proof vest. Isn't the best defense against a gun and its bullets a vest that stops them?
And two, how come it's ok to carry a real gun in most urban centers but not so smart for a child to carry a toy gun outside anywhere?
What will it take for the madness to stop?
And two, how come it's ok to carry a real gun in most urban centers but not so smart for a child to carry a toy gun outside anywhere?
What will it take for the madness to stop?
2
Your editorial overlooked one glaring aspect of the most recent wave of mass shootings : religious fanaticism. From the 'Allah Akbhar' cries of the monsters in Paris to the highly idiosyncratic beliefs of the Christian terrorist involved with the Planned Parenthood massacre in Colorado, the insanity of religious belief is an added element propulsing imbalanced minds towards unthinkable acts in the name of inexistent deities which surely remain indifferent towards our fate in the event they really exist. I never thought we would have to confront this disease in the tech-savvy 21st century....
1
"Congress has allowed the domestic gun industry to use assorted loopholes to sell arsenals that are used against innocent Americans who cannot hide. Without firm action, violent criminals will keep terrorizing communities and the nation, inflicting mass death and damage across the land."
Bingo.
Bingo.
3
Guns do not kill, people do, yes absolutely and guns are not punished either people are.
In a capitalistic society where every action by any concern is judged by the bottom line, how can you blame the profiteers of violence minting money over dead and mutilated bodies, not just by the shot guns, assault rifles and the infamous AK-47 but also the invisible drones, B-57 and alike, the F-16s raining terror on the citizens of Yemen by the Saudis etc.
In the end it boils down to our/capitalist systems immoral accounting. To put a value on one life over another is again skewed morally.
Human life is precious and must be protected whether you are pro-life or others. but all lives matter.
Let us see if we can eliminate money/profit from killing, HOW? let us figure it out collectively.
In a capitalistic society where every action by any concern is judged by the bottom line, how can you blame the profiteers of violence minting money over dead and mutilated bodies, not just by the shot guns, assault rifles and the infamous AK-47 but also the invisible drones, B-57 and alike, the F-16s raining terror on the citizens of Yemen by the Saudis etc.
In the end it boils down to our/capitalist systems immoral accounting. To put a value on one life over another is again skewed morally.
Human life is precious and must be protected whether you are pro-life or others. but all lives matter.
Let us see if we can eliminate money/profit from killing, HOW? let us figure it out collectively.
1
Paul Ryan is going to have to talk a lot about improving mental health care if he's going to deflect attention from this latest shooting.
3
Stop trying to exploit these atrocities. Acknowledge the obvious, for once: going all the way back to Charles Whitman, almost all of these shooters have been mentally ill. Why is this so difficult to acknowledge?
Repeal the Second Amendment and permit our lawmakers to enact common-sense laws regulating the ownership, possession, and use of firearms.
3
There is a law already passed by Congress that the Department of Justice can use to stop guns. It is the Patriot Act, which makes it illegal to provide "material support or resources" for terrorism. Weapons, ammunition and tactical gear that domestic terrorists use would meet every definition of material resources.
The gun dealers and manufacturers could be arrested for providing material resources for terrorists, as could the heads of gun lobbies who have been blocking laws that would prohibit terrorist suspects from getting guns.
The Department of Justice could also investigate the dark money going to gun politicians and gun lobbies that can be hidden, thanks to Citizens United. Some of this money is probably coming from foreign entities who might very well include ISIS, Al Qaeda, and other enemies of the country. That would mean the gun politicians and gun lobbies could also be arrested as traitors, not only for providing material support and resources for domestic terrorism but taking money from terrorists.
After all, Congress is extremely anti-terrorism, right? And this law is already on the books.
The gun dealers and manufacturers could be arrested for providing material resources for terrorists, as could the heads of gun lobbies who have been blocking laws that would prohibit terrorist suspects from getting guns.
The Department of Justice could also investigate the dark money going to gun politicians and gun lobbies that can be hidden, thanks to Citizens United. Some of this money is probably coming from foreign entities who might very well include ISIS, Al Qaeda, and other enemies of the country. That would mean the gun politicians and gun lobbies could also be arrested as traitors, not only for providing material support and resources for domestic terrorism but taking money from terrorists.
After all, Congress is extremely anti-terrorism, right? And this law is already on the books.
1
So now republican candidates and politicians who take their re-election campaign contributions from the NRA expect people in developmentally disabled health care centers to be armed and prepared to fight back if attacked?
Honestly!
Honestly!
1
What a wonderful echo chamber. It is so much safer to blame the 2nd amendment than radical Islam which naturally goes completely unmentioned . I guess the group think and talking points are once again more important than reality.
2
It should be clear to anyone over the age of 5 that you cannot “prevent” the actions of people in a free society.
You must first name the thing that is a problem. Then you must get consensus that the thing you have named is the problem.
Then and only then can you address the “problem”. BTW the problem is Ignorance.
Ignorance of each persons responsibility to every other person which does not in any way involve crossing their boundaries or judging them rashly.
The main aspect one can see daily is that objective reality is no longer something Americans have in common. That is new since 1980. Before that society was governed by and based on objective reality.
The knock on effects of social discord sown since 1980 by ignorance, deceit, intentional insult etc left unprocessed by denying confrontation to the injured party, the most insidious aspect of reagan’s destruction of social order & the government, (stripping the people of their ability to confront or control) inevitably leads to random explosive violence. It is social trickle down of the moral problems that start at the top.
We were never perfect but we did used to understand what freedom is. It is not the cowardly fear based thinking that requires monitoring of those the cowards fear.
Society was as safe as people were willing to make it by their own words & behavior not by asserting control or restrictions over others.
You must first name the thing that is a problem. Then you must get consensus that the thing you have named is the problem.
Then and only then can you address the “problem”. BTW the problem is Ignorance.
Ignorance of each persons responsibility to every other person which does not in any way involve crossing their boundaries or judging them rashly.
The main aspect one can see daily is that objective reality is no longer something Americans have in common. That is new since 1980. Before that society was governed by and based on objective reality.
The knock on effects of social discord sown since 1980 by ignorance, deceit, intentional insult etc left unprocessed by denying confrontation to the injured party, the most insidious aspect of reagan’s destruction of social order & the government, (stripping the people of their ability to confront or control) inevitably leads to random explosive violence. It is social trickle down of the moral problems that start at the top.
We were never perfect but we did used to understand what freedom is. It is not the cowardly fear based thinking that requires monitoring of those the cowards fear.
Society was as safe as people were willing to make it by their own words & behavior not by asserting control or restrictions over others.
I just went online to search for .223 caliber assault weapons (the ones allegedly used in San Bernardino) sale. Google gave me 299,000 hits within 10 seconds. The first one on the search results page was a gun store in Huntsville, Texas, which had many versions and prices of this particular weapons for sale.
The fine print cautions that you can't directly buy the weapon; instead, after you purchase it, the gun must be shipped to a holder of a FFL federal gun license (like a gun shop, but it could be an individual) for pickup. You can also buy ammo, shipped direct, but you have to have it shipped as hazardous material.
Prices for the .223 were anywhere from $499 to 699. I didn't see any Holiday promos. Also, you have to be 18 or 21 to purchase this stuff online, and a handful of states restrict online assault weapon sales, or ammunition, or ammo clips.
To purchase a .223 assault weapon in California, it has to be approved by the state of California. Nothing about buying a weapon in Nevada or Georgia or Wisconsin and then bringing it into California, presumably to hunt.
The fine print cautions that you can't directly buy the weapon; instead, after you purchase it, the gun must be shipped to a holder of a FFL federal gun license (like a gun shop, but it could be an individual) for pickup. You can also buy ammo, shipped direct, but you have to have it shipped as hazardous material.
Prices for the .223 were anywhere from $499 to 699. I didn't see any Holiday promos. Also, you have to be 18 or 21 to purchase this stuff online, and a handful of states restrict online assault weapon sales, or ammunition, or ammo clips.
To purchase a .223 assault weapon in California, it has to be approved by the state of California. Nothing about buying a weapon in Nevada or Georgia or Wisconsin and then bringing it into California, presumably to hunt.
3
Still wondering:
did the shooters yell "allah akbar"?
"No more baby body parts"?
"Tora, Tora, Tora"?
The Republic Party answer is more big government, more taxpayer money to fund "mental health" programs. What they refuse to acknowledge is the "gun" part of the problem completely.
So here's my ideas:
Gun owners must have liability insurance for each weapon they purchase.
When a weapon is used by an owner in a tortious manner, insurance provides damages to the victim. It may create some anomalies (the 9 year old shoot his brother now has a sizable college fund), but like auto insurance, there is a pool of money to do the only thing a society can do: compensation with money.
Second: Initial mental health examination prior to obtaining a weapon.
Because mental health can deteriorate over time, each gun owner should be required to a complete mental health examination every two years to make sure the owner is still sane.
The examination can be covered by a health insurance rider purchased by each weapon owner.
did the shooters yell "allah akbar"?
"No more baby body parts"?
"Tora, Tora, Tora"?
The Republic Party answer is more big government, more taxpayer money to fund "mental health" programs. What they refuse to acknowledge is the "gun" part of the problem completely.
So here's my ideas:
Gun owners must have liability insurance for each weapon they purchase.
When a weapon is used by an owner in a tortious manner, insurance provides damages to the victim. It may create some anomalies (the 9 year old shoot his brother now has a sizable college fund), but like auto insurance, there is a pool of money to do the only thing a society can do: compensation with money.
Second: Initial mental health examination prior to obtaining a weapon.
Because mental health can deteriorate over time, each gun owner should be required to a complete mental health examination every two years to make sure the owner is still sane.
The examination can be covered by a health insurance rider purchased by each weapon owner.
2
Amazing how the ones most adamantly pressing for gun control are the very people who are guarded 24-7 by men and women armed to the teeth with latest, most sophisticated guns.
2
The only sensible gun control law that would make a serious difference in keeping guns out of the hands of those who should not have them was what was called may issue, as opposed to must issue. May issue meant that a permit to own a gun was based on the discretion of the local police department.
However now that the supreme court ruled that may issue laws are unconstitutional and that owning a gun is a right the debate is closed, as there remains no possibility of any law that would prevent most of these shootings from taking place.
Because even if the gun show loophole was taken away the fact remains that any person who is not a convicted felon or found by a mental professional to be mentally unfit to own a firearm will be able to get a gun. Outlawing assault rifles will not make a drop of a difference since there is no major difference between the clip sizes for assault rifles and handguns.
What sets America apart from all other countries is the supreme court decision that owning a gun is a right. And as long as that is the law of the land the reality that we will continue to live in is that most anyone who wants can get their hands on a gun. And calls for "responsible" gun laws are nothing more than wishes, because that supreme court decision has precluded any responsible gun laws from ever being enacted.
However now that the supreme court ruled that may issue laws are unconstitutional and that owning a gun is a right the debate is closed, as there remains no possibility of any law that would prevent most of these shootings from taking place.
Because even if the gun show loophole was taken away the fact remains that any person who is not a convicted felon or found by a mental professional to be mentally unfit to own a firearm will be able to get a gun. Outlawing assault rifles will not make a drop of a difference since there is no major difference between the clip sizes for assault rifles and handguns.
What sets America apart from all other countries is the supreme court decision that owning a gun is a right. And as long as that is the law of the land the reality that we will continue to live in is that most anyone who wants can get their hands on a gun. And calls for "responsible" gun laws are nothing more than wishes, because that supreme court decision has precluded any responsible gun laws from ever being enacted.
How can the Left be not okay with law-abiding Americans' constitutional right to keep and bear arms and be okay with Obama's unconstitutional nuclear arming of apocalyptic radical-Islamist terrorists not constrained by MAD?
Ask yourself: Which has the greater potential to destroy us?
–The Keystone XL pipeline or Obama's Iran nuke deal?
–Carbon non-neutrality or Putin non-neutrality?
–Wiping out an incipient terrorist threat, or directly causing it's actualization and rapid metastasis and then "managing" it to "burnish" one's presidential "legacy"??
The magnitude & frequency of Obama's acts of irreversible damage to America vary inversely and exponentially with his time left in office.
A despot can do a lot of damage in 14 months and a deluded one blinded by his own imagined brilliance will.
One day in the not too distant future, when our children and grandchildren are suffering the consequences of Barack Obama, the Clintons, John Kerry et al., they will ask us why we put these unfit people in office in the first place, and why, when their existential threat to us and the world became obvious, we did not immediately remove them for unfitness, our constitutional right... and our duty.
Ask yourself: Which has the greater potential to destroy us?
–The Keystone XL pipeline or Obama's Iran nuke deal?
–Carbon non-neutrality or Putin non-neutrality?
–Wiping out an incipient terrorist threat, or directly causing it's actualization and rapid metastasis and then "managing" it to "burnish" one's presidential "legacy"??
The magnitude & frequency of Obama's acts of irreversible damage to America vary inversely and exponentially with his time left in office.
A despot can do a lot of damage in 14 months and a deluded one blinded by his own imagined brilliance will.
One day in the not too distant future, when our children and grandchildren are suffering the consequences of Barack Obama, the Clintons, John Kerry et al., they will ask us why we put these unfit people in office in the first place, and why, when their existential threat to us and the world became obvious, we did not immediately remove them for unfitness, our constitutional right... and our duty.
1
Is time for the US to recognize that islamic radicalism (salafism, wahhabism etc.) is a serious problem, not only for Europe but even for the US.
Now the islamic population in America is not so important to be a problem to the country (as it is in France, or Belgium right now), and of course the big majority of islamic people are peaceful and not radicalised, but there is the need to make more controls on mosques, schools and islamic preachers, to avoid the risk of radicalisation.
Political correctness, or confusion on the true problem (which is not only the weapons' business, as it is mainly perceived right now) don't help to solve the problem. It is not too late for the US, here in Europe we have abandoned the necessary controls for too long (even allowing radicalised preachers to speak publically on meetings and events for the right of "freedom of speech"), and now we have to deal with this serious threat to our countries.
I hope the US don't make the same mistake!
Now the islamic population in America is not so important to be a problem to the country (as it is in France, or Belgium right now), and of course the big majority of islamic people are peaceful and not radicalised, but there is the need to make more controls on mosques, schools and islamic preachers, to avoid the risk of radicalisation.
Political correctness, or confusion on the true problem (which is not only the weapons' business, as it is mainly perceived right now) don't help to solve the problem. It is not too late for the US, here in Europe we have abandoned the necessary controls for too long (even allowing radicalised preachers to speak publically on meetings and events for the right of "freedom of speech"), and now we have to deal with this serious threat to our countries.
I hope the US don't make the same mistake!
4
I suspect that quite a few of our pro-gun legislators in their heart of hearts would like to do something about the out of control NRA and gun lobbies, but as long as the NRA continues to be the guarantor of their cushy jobs and generous salaries they won't be voting their consciences any time soon- the sacrifice would simply be too great for these cowards.
1
"Yet, even as grief fills communities randomly victimized by mass shootings, the sales of weapons grow ever higher"
This is the sad truth. Often times, people put to blame the mental health care system, or certain groups of people for causing these atrocities. However, what people fail to realize is that guns commit these major acts of violence, people commit these acts with the help of guns. People need to realize that their constitutional right of the second amendment does not give them the power to commit these disgusting acts. People need to realize that a gun is a powerful weapon. Stronger gun laws need to be enforced quickly. I am not saying that these mass shootings will completely disappear, but they will definitely diminish over time.
This is the sad truth. Often times, people put to blame the mental health care system, or certain groups of people for causing these atrocities. However, what people fail to realize is that guns commit these major acts of violence, people commit these acts with the help of guns. People need to realize that their constitutional right of the second amendment does not give them the power to commit these disgusting acts. People need to realize that a gun is a powerful weapon. Stronger gun laws need to be enforced quickly. I am not saying that these mass shootings will completely disappear, but they will definitely diminish over time.
1
I never thought I would live to see a nation essentially committing suicide. Every time we miss an occasion to get serious about tightening gun purchase laws, we succumb to the PR machine and the cowardice of elected officials.
I've heard it said that if nothing changes nothing changes. It sounds simplistic and a bit stupid but it's true. We need to stop waiting for the other guy to do something about guns. Everyone of us has the ability to cast a vote next November.
It's what you do with that voy gives you power --freedom to demand a lessening of the NRA's grip over the GOP.
I've heard it said that if nothing changes nothing changes. It sounds simplistic and a bit stupid but it's true. We need to stop waiting for the other guy to do something about guns. Everyone of us has the ability to cast a vote next November.
It's what you do with that voy gives you power --freedom to demand a lessening of the NRA's grip over the GOP.
2
This is where the American ideal of "freedom" fails. Your right to own any gun you want and my right to live are incompatible. We have to choose which kind of freedom we want in America. We can't have both. Half-measures won't work.
3
What sort of a (family) wife would accompany and avenge her husband's work place dispute with assault riffles and military tactics. More than the eye meets.
4
Perhaps we should look at ourselves, our faith. Did God make this happen, why didn't God stop this? What makes us believe in one direction and not the other? Why can't we believe in another's religion? Why are you right and they are wrong? Why do you feel the need to convince others to believe the way you believe? Why do we judge those that we cannot convince? Why does that makes us prejudice? Why does it makes us angry? Why do we allow religion to dictate our thoughts and actions? If we believe that only our religion is the right way to heaven, then there must be a lot of people on this earth that we think are wrong. Right? Syed Farook recently became consumed in his faith and did the unthinkable! Fanaticism affects us all, from those who become victims of it to those fall victim to it. A seed of prejudice is cultivated in name of religion and blossoms to hate behind the mask of faith. Not God nor the Devil is to blame. People are killing people.
There is so much wrong with America's obsession with guns.
A reasonable start would be the repeal of all laws that prevent gun manufacturers, dealers and owners from liability in gun deaths. If your kid finds your gun and shoots the neighbour kid, I'm sorry, but you were being irresponsible and you should be criminally and civilly liable. Since owning a gun exponentially increases the risk that someone will die from that gun in your home, owning one should require significantly higher insurance rates and coverage.
The only thing America worships more than guns is money. Make it extremely expensive to own a gun and fewer people will buy them. If Walmart had to pay a couple of million every time some psychopath shoots someone with a gun bought there, they'd stop selling them. Capitalism at work.
Elect a President who will appoint sensible Supreme Court Justices when the current crop of Death Eaters (Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, Scalito and Kennedy) retire. Fight through the courts until the current idiotic interpretation of the Second Amendment is overturned.
Make it harder to buy a gun than it is to buy a car. Strictly enforce existing laws, yes, of course. Use a gun in a crime and do hard time.
Start a national buy-back programme -- cash and a tax break for your guns. Clearly distinguish in law the difference between a civilian weapon and a military one and absolutely ban the ownership of military weapons with very few and very very very stringent rules for exceptions.
A reasonable start would be the repeal of all laws that prevent gun manufacturers, dealers and owners from liability in gun deaths. If your kid finds your gun and shoots the neighbour kid, I'm sorry, but you were being irresponsible and you should be criminally and civilly liable. Since owning a gun exponentially increases the risk that someone will die from that gun in your home, owning one should require significantly higher insurance rates and coverage.
The only thing America worships more than guns is money. Make it extremely expensive to own a gun and fewer people will buy them. If Walmart had to pay a couple of million every time some psychopath shoots someone with a gun bought there, they'd stop selling them. Capitalism at work.
Elect a President who will appoint sensible Supreme Court Justices when the current crop of Death Eaters (Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, Scalito and Kennedy) retire. Fight through the courts until the current idiotic interpretation of the Second Amendment is overturned.
Make it harder to buy a gun than it is to buy a car. Strictly enforce existing laws, yes, of course. Use a gun in a crime and do hard time.
Start a national buy-back programme -- cash and a tax break for your guns. Clearly distinguish in law the difference between a civilian weapon and a military one and absolutely ban the ownership of military weapons with very few and very very very stringent rules for exceptions.
1
Trump & Cruz will call it a tragedy and say we should not dishonor the memory of those who were killed by politicizing the issue on gun control. Carson will say there should have been armed guards, or that the disabled people att he devevelopment center should have all been allowed to have guns. And the rest of the pack will wrap themselves around an ill informed incorrect interpritation of the second amendment that will be red meat to the "deciders" of the Republican primary-the hard right minority. The rhetoric of the Obama Gun Grab will migrate to the Hillary Gun Grab. I somtimes like to watch movies more than once but I have seen this one waaay too many times.
How insane that a single industry (the gun manufactureres and selllers) can benefit so tremendously every time a horor is committed with their products.
How insane that a single industry (the gun manufactureres and selllers) can benefit so tremendously every time a horor is committed with their products.
3
One may question if the Gun Lobby secretly approves of these tragedies since each event may frighten ordinary non-armed citizens into purchasing a gun for protection. They do represent an industry whose business is selling guns. If that's true, and obviously they still oppose any legislation to restrict access to guns, even by people on no-fly lists, then that fits my definition of terrorism: spectacular violent acts used in order to achieve political influence.
1
"Assault-style rifles"
There is absolutely no justification for allowing the sale or procurement of an assault-style rifle, outside military and law enforcement.
There is absolutely no justification for allowing the sale or procurement of an assault-style rifle, outside military and law enforcement.
2
President Obama should order American flags to fly at half-staff EVERY day in recognition of the routine slaughter that occurs, until Congress passes some reasonable gun control measure.
1
"Paul Ryan responded to the killings at the Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs with a call for better mental health care..."
It's predictable what the NRA and its supporters will now say after San Bernardino: "Don't sell guns to individuals with Muslim names." And that will SOLVE the gun violence problem in the U.S.
It's predictable what the NRA and its supporters will now say after San Bernardino: "Don't sell guns to individuals with Muslim names." And that will SOLVE the gun violence problem in the U.S.
1
We need more than gun control laws. We need to make the process of owning and using a gun at least as difficult as getting and operating a motor vehicle. That way there might be some dignity to it as well as increase safety.
1
I don't know about you, ladies and gentlemen, but although people are telling us not to consider this mass murder as "normal", it sure does feel normal to me, alas. As a 50 year old male, I'm not going to say that "things were better when I was younger" or "it's just a sign of the times" because EVERY time has it's own scourge. After all, my grandparent's generation lived through the Holocaust! Having said this, what HAS changed is the way information is disseminated. We now have instant access to breaking news and people are weighing in more and are better informed than ever before. Additionally, the apparent INDIFFERENCE, as shown by gun-loving nutcases who resist even the most basic common-sense measures to control instruments of war getting into the hands of the wrong people, is utterly sickening. So yes, some things have changed for the worse. These hardcore gun fanatics, after all, seem to be embracing a new type of politician who can claim that Mexicans are "rapists" or another that attacked his mother with a knife and then RISE in the polls. How can we expect to deal with the myriad problems this country faces with people like THAT having a say in a dialogue between "thoughtful and intelligent" people? QUESTION: In this day and age of instant news and endless reporting, how does one stay informed by watching tv or reading the paper and NOT become hopelessly disillusioned and saddened?
3
For those with the mental illness called Republicanism--a disease that makes you want to put guns in the hands of dangerous people--I call for mental health treatment.
Any NRA supporter, you've got that Republicanism disease that makes you want to put assault rifles in the hands of guy like Farook and Dear. You get free mental health care for your diagnosis of Republicanism.
Put Republicanism in the DSM whatever it is now. Let's cure it now.
And since as we all know mental health care is infallible, no need to regulate guns in the meantime.
Right NRA, just let those guns keep killing people, as long as you get your second amendment. That amendment is at this point largely a violation of rights.
Any NRA supporter, you've got that Republicanism disease that makes you want to put assault rifles in the hands of guy like Farook and Dear. You get free mental health care for your diagnosis of Republicanism.
Put Republicanism in the DSM whatever it is now. Let's cure it now.
And since as we all know mental health care is infallible, no need to regulate guns in the meantime.
Right NRA, just let those guns keep killing people, as long as you get your second amendment. That amendment is at this point largely a violation of rights.
2
Gun proponency and inaction, denial of human climate change, discredited economic policies, voter suppression, inequality - there is an endless list of the damage done and being done by the GOP. Their negative impact is not just upon the U.S. but upon the entire world because of our influence.
4
There are 300 million guns in America. These people needed only 2 of them. I think the 2nd amendment should be repealed, and gun control then enacted, to prevent common gun crimes. But gun control is effective versus ordinary criminals, not terrorists or large organized gangs. Anders Breivik and the Paris Islamist killers are proof of its ineffectiveness against a determined, premeditated terrorist. People using this terrorist attack to press the case for gun control are deceiving themselves or others.
3
As a naturalized American citizen born and raised in Ireland, the gun culture has always struck me as the single strangest aspect of America.
It is glaringly obvious to the casual observer that the frequency and intensity of gun deaths is a direct result of allowing everyone access to military-grade weapons. You can buy a gun like you can buy a box of cornflakes. No other developed nation allows such a thing. No other developed nation sees 30,000 gun deaths a year, as we do. That is not a coincidence.
Other nations have people with mental illness, discontents, anti-social loners, and malevolent savages in their midst - look at Anders Breivik in Norway. Such people may, occasionally, get their hands on weapons and wreak havoc. What is unique in the United States is the frequency of the havoc, more than one a day according to an article in today's Times. And this all plays out, it must be remembered, against a steady backdrop flow of "casual" gun incidents that see dozens shot daily.
The gun lobby's solution is to arm everyone and, in effect, return us to the Viking era when men went about armed and ready to draw at the slightest insult or perceived threat.
Is that a vision of the country Americans are comfortable with? Do we think having more armed citizens in the chaos of a mass shooting event would help - or make things worse?
The country is at a crossroads: onwards to a more civilized, less armed future, or back to the Viking village. Choose.
It is glaringly obvious to the casual observer that the frequency and intensity of gun deaths is a direct result of allowing everyone access to military-grade weapons. You can buy a gun like you can buy a box of cornflakes. No other developed nation allows such a thing. No other developed nation sees 30,000 gun deaths a year, as we do. That is not a coincidence.
Other nations have people with mental illness, discontents, anti-social loners, and malevolent savages in their midst - look at Anders Breivik in Norway. Such people may, occasionally, get their hands on weapons and wreak havoc. What is unique in the United States is the frequency of the havoc, more than one a day according to an article in today's Times. And this all plays out, it must be remembered, against a steady backdrop flow of "casual" gun incidents that see dozens shot daily.
The gun lobby's solution is to arm everyone and, in effect, return us to the Viking era when men went about armed and ready to draw at the slightest insult or perceived threat.
Is that a vision of the country Americans are comfortable with? Do we think having more armed citizens in the chaos of a mass shooting event would help - or make things worse?
The country is at a crossroads: onwards to a more civilized, less armed future, or back to the Viking village. Choose.
4
This latest event is giving me mass murder fatigue: 26 children, 3 dead in Colorado, Virginia Tech, Columbine, Boston Marathon, Timothy McVeigh, Waco, on and on, ad nauseum, ad absurdum. It is way past the time to allow the CDC to study the effect of guns and gun laws on the health of our population, recommend actions and legislators address those recommendations. At the very least it is a way forward.
3
Until there is a liability cost assigned to crazies getting access to mass killing weaponry there will be no change. We now live in a "wild west" environment where you are expected to carry a gun to survive the day. No gun then you sorta deserved what you got. Right NRA?
1
My sister survived the Columbine High School shooting, and I'm typing this half a mile from that school. Please believe me when I say I've been following this issue for quite some time; it's been more than 16 years now.
Since 1999, I have lived in several countries where guns are not easy to obtain and where mass shootings (or massacres of any kind) are rare, and this is my conclusion: We may brag about our "freedom" in the United States, but it's not worth what we pay for it. Say what you will about the founders; nothing I've read has persuaded me that they intended the Second Amendment to ensure the continued murders of innocent civilians.
Gun-rights advocates tell us that things would be fine if only all of us were armed to the teeth for every occasion. Speaking for myself, I don't want to live in a world where I need to bring my semiautomatic and wear body armor to the office holiday party.
And yes, I mean that literally: I'd rather die than live in a world where I can't leave my house unless I'm armed to the teeth. It's not worth it.
Since 1999, I have lived in several countries where guns are not easy to obtain and where mass shootings (or massacres of any kind) are rare, and this is my conclusion: We may brag about our "freedom" in the United States, but it's not worth what we pay for it. Say what you will about the founders; nothing I've read has persuaded me that they intended the Second Amendment to ensure the continued murders of innocent civilians.
Gun-rights advocates tell us that things would be fine if only all of us were armed to the teeth for every occasion. Speaking for myself, I don't want to live in a world where I need to bring my semiautomatic and wear body armor to the office holiday party.
And yes, I mean that literally: I'd rather die than live in a world where I can't leave my house unless I'm armed to the teeth. It's not worth it.
6
In Europe, and in most of the rest of the civilized world, if someone gets insulted at a party the result is a fist fight or a knife fight at worst, not mass murder of innocent bystanders. So guns, not people, kill indiscriminately.
The gun lobbyists are accessories to mass murder, no more, no less.
The gun lobbyists are accessories to mass murder, no more, no less.
3
Perhaps if some of these NRA lover-politicians lost a loved-one via a crazy gun shooter they wd finally come to their senses and realize the atrocities these politicians are indirectly supporting. I don't wish this pain on anyone, really, but I am far beyond exasperation in terms of coming up w a solution or a way to communicate w these obstinate NRA lovers and narcissistic politicians. My step mom who lives alone has a pistol and that doesn't bother me at all. I know she wd never use it unless she was being robbed and/or attacked. She has told me she is more than willing to undergo a background check and wd have been willing to wait the 3 weeks to buy her pistol. But politicians (particularly in the south) won't even listen to my Tea Party Step Mom in Dallas when it comes to gun control and she attends the Republican Women Lunches monthly and thinks Obama is a Muslim!!!
It is our *politicians* who are keeping gun killings and ownership out of control in America!
I don't understand why 90%+ of Americans support 3-week delays of delivering guns for those who are also willing to go through a background check. Doesn't it seem incredibly selfish of anyone who wants to buy a gun not to be willing to submit to practical practices if it means saving the lives of thousands?
2
Anyone who insists on owning a gun lets the very real propensity for trouble and violence into their home. Who would do this? The paranoid, the unstable, the destructive, those that care very little about their families. These are the truly mentally ill. Who supports them? Politicians who would be unemployable in the real world if they were not elected to their positions of power. Every politician needs to be voted out of power. They do nothing more than chase wars abroad and engender violence here at home.
1
No one has ever explained to me why a civilian would EVER need an assault rifle (confirmed as the weapon used in the massacre). An assault rifle exists only to kill people. It's what police and military use. It is not an appropriate tool for self-defense or hunting. In civilian hands it is a pure murder tool.
So why, why can any person buy them? This is outrageous and tragic.
So why, why can any person buy them? This is outrageous and tragic.
2
One correction. The NYT Op-Ed writers got one item wrong: The horrific shootings at the Newtown (Sandy Hook) ES happened on Dec.14th, 2012. It would then be impossible for the Black Friday gun sales to be a "buying binge" afterward when the shootings happened AFTER Black Friday. Honest mistake or liberal propaganda?
This is a gun country. There is no middle ground. Most people either love guns or hate them. There is no way that some reasonable people could sit down and hammer out new laws that will help stop most of these shootings. Those "reasonable gun laws" will make libs/progs/SJWs feel good and claim a moral victory but do nothing to stop these shootings.
One side of the USA wants to be able to own guns. The other side wants ALL guns taken away from ALL people except the cops and military. They are some people in the middle willing to compromise but their voices get drowned out. I fear this pattern of shootings will continue for some time.
PS No one on here, that I noticed, commented on the gang banger shootings that go on DAILY in the 50-100 biggest cities. Those cause many more deaths then these high profile shootings.
This is a gun country. There is no middle ground. Most people either love guns or hate them. There is no way that some reasonable people could sit down and hammer out new laws that will help stop most of these shootings. Those "reasonable gun laws" will make libs/progs/SJWs feel good and claim a moral victory but do nothing to stop these shootings.
One side of the USA wants to be able to own guns. The other side wants ALL guns taken away from ALL people except the cops and military. They are some people in the middle willing to compromise but their voices get drowned out. I fear this pattern of shootings will continue for some time.
PS No one on here, that I noticed, commented on the gang banger shootings that go on DAILY in the 50-100 biggest cities. Those cause many more deaths then these high profile shootings.
1
The gun is the ultimate expression of private property and private power. It trumps our freedom of personal and communal safety. It's an expression of power where only disenfranchisement exists. It's a way of speaking loudly when we are afraid to talk to our neighbor. It's the only way to face our fears and insecurities alone. When society and community disintegrates, it's the only thing that connects us to each other.
It is the ultimate expression of the cult of the individual. The American dream.
It is the ultimate expression of the cult of the individual. The American dream.
1
The Second Amendment must be 'amended' urgently.
2
The men I work with are reasonable family guys with mortgages, they work hard and have varied interests and obey the law. They will vote against any politician, no matter she promises, if they feel their gun ownership rights will be cut. That's the bottom line. Reasonable men, no leeway on guns.
I don't own a gun and I don't like guns. But I understand their viewpoint. They are not going to agree to rules based on the actions of irrational people who do bad things. They want rules that respect their own lives. They have the 2cd amendment, and they have their votes, and they invoke both. I trust them with their guns, and criminals will always find a way to buy guns if stores won't sell them to them.
I don't own a gun and I don't like guns. But I understand their viewpoint. They are not going to agree to rules based on the actions of irrational people who do bad things. They want rules that respect their own lives. They have the 2cd amendment, and they have their votes, and they invoke both. I trust them with their guns, and criminals will always find a way to buy guns if stores won't sell them to them.
1
A few possibilities to limit gun violence in America:
First, declare it a national health emergency. If 30,000 people died of Ebola every year, you wouldn't hear the end of it. But we have silence on gun deaths interrupted by spasmodic whimpers of heartfelt grievance every few days.
Ban assault style weapons. Have a buy-back period followed by making it a felony to be in possession of them.
Control and limit ammunition.
Register all guns. Unregistered weapons constitute a felony.
Institute background checks, with no exceptions or loopholes. Create a list of reasons to deny access to gun ownership: domestic violence offenders, mental health, other criminal history, etc.
Regulate "gun shows" and any backdoor sales events.
Require mandatory insurance on all weapons. No insurance-confiscate the weapon.
Implement "smart gun" ownership over time.
Would this eliminate all gun violence? No, but it would lessen the odds by a great percentage. It would save thousands of lives per year.
One more thing, investigative journalists should start identifying gun manufacturers, and the lawmakers who accept money from them and the NRA.
First, declare it a national health emergency. If 30,000 people died of Ebola every year, you wouldn't hear the end of it. But we have silence on gun deaths interrupted by spasmodic whimpers of heartfelt grievance every few days.
Ban assault style weapons. Have a buy-back period followed by making it a felony to be in possession of them.
Control and limit ammunition.
Register all guns. Unregistered weapons constitute a felony.
Institute background checks, with no exceptions or loopholes. Create a list of reasons to deny access to gun ownership: domestic violence offenders, mental health, other criminal history, etc.
Regulate "gun shows" and any backdoor sales events.
Require mandatory insurance on all weapons. No insurance-confiscate the weapon.
Implement "smart gun" ownership over time.
Would this eliminate all gun violence? No, but it would lessen the odds by a great percentage. It would save thousands of lives per year.
One more thing, investigative journalists should start identifying gun manufacturers, and the lawmakers who accept money from them and the NRA.
1
A mosre stringent registration process will do little to impede gun murders. Notwithstanding the media attention to mass killings by killers who are mentally ill &/or have a 'cause', most murderers are criminals who purchase guns illegally. We need to do 2 things the reduce the number of murders in our country. We need to prohibit anyone from buying more than one gun a year - which will likely be resold to criminals. And we need to make it illegal for people to carry guns into public spaces. Stop & frisk, yes - but only for weapons. So that leaves people with hunting rifles - in rural areas & guns that people keep at home to protect themselves and their families in case there is a break-in.
Government can do nothing to stop these mass shootings. The people must rise up to stop this. One simple idea: Nothing motivates Americans like professional sports. As a group, professional athletes, coaches, and managers/owners have the attention of pretty much all Americans, almost all the time. Sponsors get their products exposure because of pro sports. If organized professional sports would "strike" for 7 days after any mass shooting (3 or more people), to protest the ongoing spate of mass shootings in America, folks would respond!! Anyone with even the slightest knowledge of an upcoming shooting, would simply tell the potential murderers to think twice and put the guns away, so the entertainment and gaming of professional sports would not stop. Going one week without professional sports would affect the American public much more than anything the government can do. Maybe all shooters would not be stopped, but plenty of potential mass shooters would see how unpopular their deeds actually are, and simply not do it. Otherwise, at the rate of mass shootings now, professional sports would have to cease to exist, to the dismay of most Americans. These pro sports folks have more power than they think. The football players at the University of Missouri refused to play recently until changes happened at that university. Change happened in Missouri. Society will change with the help of the "non-play" of professional sports, unless societies' behavior improves.
There have been more mass shootings than calendar days so far this year.
In fact, San Bernardino was the second mass shooting of the day, preceded by one in Savannah, Georgia - one dead, 3 injured.
355 so far.
In fact, San Bernardino was the second mass shooting of the day, preceded by one in Savannah, Georgia - one dead, 3 injured.
355 so far.
2
I don't want "sensible gun controls." I want radical, far-reaching, effective gun controls. I want every gun registered with a government agency so that every police department can identify every gun owner in it's jurisdiction. We are long past the days when anyone but a few ranchers or farmers needs to own a gun. Gun ownership should be a privileged. Paul Ryan is wrong about needing to identify those with mental illness to stop gun violence. The mental illness is in the Republican Party, the NRA, and any gun owners who fail to take or who impede action on gun control and fail to see that they are killing people with their short-sighted solipsism.
4
I wish constantly there was a DMV equivalent for guns. License, Registration, Insurance, Tests for ownership, tickets and court appearances for violations. A nationwide federal agency that provides this service would also create many valuable government careers. Also the long lines, endless paperwork, and the overall bureaucratic hassle of a DMV like situation will defer people from buying guns in the first place. There is no reason why having a car, an economic necessity in most cases, should be more of a hassle then owning a gun.
4
In light of another senseless episode of gun violence It seems ludicrous to continue to believe that passing more laws will fix things or that politicians and criminal justice systems have the answer. Brothers and sisters we are witnessing the unraveling of a culture, right before our eyes. The truth is that America has had a longstanding love affair with violence. It is often the center of reality for much of mainstream America and lives in us through our media, television, film, sports, war, video games, etc. Violence is deeply ingrained in the psyche of America, a core part of our national identity. In watching the reporting unfolding today the images of military tactical units only reinforce this mental images. Yet one truth remains unspoken by our leaders and media celebrity who can not say the words: "We are a violent country". It's not just "those" other bad guys we like to talk about. It's a national epidemic that has risen to level of an addiction. Until America can acknowledge this truth we can continue to pass lots of laws and try once again to get tough on crime, yet little will change. Violence is part of our legacy and at some point we'll need to own this "shadow". Until we do we can expect that our children and grandchildren will reap tomorrow what is being sowed today. This is one of the legacies we are passing forward to them.
1
Unfortunately in Colorado, legislators who dared to pass sensible gun safety laws were successfully recalled through a special electoral process. Such was the state of gun politics in this country in 2013. Is it any different today? I can only hope so.
2
The Gun Control movement is a very selfish idea which threatens the well being of many of our citizens. Particularly those that live in inner cities.
Here's why:
Framing the reason behind high homicide rates in terms of a minor, politically convenient, variable distracts from the main root causes. That's dangerous. It is hijacking a pressing issue to further a political agenda.
The lack of tighter control accounts for a very small percentage of what CAUSES gun homicides. (suicide is another discussion)
This is clear and easily demonstrated:
What actually makes up gun homicide?
"Deadly mass shootings... represented 1% of all deaths by gun" (Wikipedia: Gun Violence in US)
Hmmm... That's not it.
"Gun violence is most common in poor urban areas and frequently associated with gang violence, often involving male juveniles or young adult" (ibid)
There it is. Yet.
"Prevalence of homicide and violent crime is higher in statistical metropolitan areas of the U.S. than it is in non-metropolitan counties*" (ibid) YET, "Rural areas (56%) owned a gun, compared with 29% of those in urban areas."
*this factors in percentage, of course.
High gun access does not have to translate to high gun homicide. America is full of areas with responsible high gun ownership and access, and relatively low gun violence rates- just not in certain inner cities.
Gangs and inner city culture are clearly the issue, but that's not PC to focus on. Better hijack it for your pet ideological projects.
Here's why:
Framing the reason behind high homicide rates in terms of a minor, politically convenient, variable distracts from the main root causes. That's dangerous. It is hijacking a pressing issue to further a political agenda.
The lack of tighter control accounts for a very small percentage of what CAUSES gun homicides. (suicide is another discussion)
This is clear and easily demonstrated:
What actually makes up gun homicide?
"Deadly mass shootings... represented 1% of all deaths by gun" (Wikipedia: Gun Violence in US)
Hmmm... That's not it.
"Gun violence is most common in poor urban areas and frequently associated with gang violence, often involving male juveniles or young adult" (ibid)
There it is. Yet.
"Prevalence of homicide and violent crime is higher in statistical metropolitan areas of the U.S. than it is in non-metropolitan counties*" (ibid) YET, "Rural areas (56%) owned a gun, compared with 29% of those in urban areas."
*this factors in percentage, of course.
High gun access does not have to translate to high gun homicide. America is full of areas with responsible high gun ownership and access, and relatively low gun violence rates- just not in certain inner cities.
Gangs and inner city culture are clearly the issue, but that's not PC to focus on. Better hijack it for your pet ideological projects.
2
We are simply held hostage by the Second Amendment as currently written. Why can we not have a right to bear arms that is rooted in the responsibility of such bearing?
It is high time that the Second Amendment was amended.
It is high time that the Second Amendment was amended.
3
There is a huge segment of our population that echo Heston's "from my cold dead hands" stubbornness when it comes to gun reform. Most of these people are peaceful, safe and love to hunt or shoot guns for sport. But when it comes to any sort of control, "from my cold dead hands" is their tone. In order for there to be effective gun control, those people need to stop echoing Heston, stop the seeding this generational stubbornness, and advocate for responsible vetting of applicants, not this wild west free-for-all. If it's for hunting or sport, those mentally stable people should have no problem walking through a very strict vetting process, training process, licensing process to buy a gun. It could take a few months, maybe even a year, like getting one's driver's privilege. And it should be sold as special privilege, a huge responsibility, like flying a plane, not for everyone--only the truly dedicated, mature and responsible. The Heston line should change to "from my mature, responsible, vetted, gone through classes, earned my right, valued and respected the process, cold dead hands." Start from the heart of gun country, seed the NRA, appeal to the adults in the room, and change the culture with a strict gun licensing program. Real men and women should not be afraid to walk that line. It would be the most patriotic thing to do.
2
The NY Times should just copy and paste this editorial to re-use every day. You can just leave the numbers of victims, the location and date blank and fill it in with the correct information as needed. No need to write a new one every time there is a mass shooting, just take this formula and print it daily.
The NYT's should be ashamed of trying to take advantage of an incident like this. They're more concerned with not asking though questions about Islam, it's compatibility with Western values and immigration policy, than they are with the lives of innocent Americans trying to live their everyday lives.
1
"the horror" in San Bernardino???
Whatever happened to journalistic standards?
You realize at the NYT that such use of adjectives colors the news?
You do realize this, correct?
I realize that this particular piece is an editorial, but you allow your journalists to exercise considerable "artistic license" in this regard.
Whatever happened to journalistic standards?
You realize at the NYT that such use of adjectives colors the news?
You do realize this, correct?
I realize that this particular piece is an editorial, but you allow your journalists to exercise considerable "artistic license" in this regard.
The only solution to these mass shootings is to get rid of all guns. And stop calling assault rifles "long rifles" as if they are something used for deer hunting.
2
You saw what happened here and you think the answer is gun control? These people had guns, bombs, body armor and who knows what else. Do you think, possibly, there's something going on here other than the guns? What epithet is beyond "knee jerk" reaction? Whatever it is, this editorial deserves it.
2
Some 25 years ago I wrote a letter to the Reno Gazette Journal in which I said that "..we are a nation of idiots the way we tolerate the carnage caused by guns.." A few days later the Sheriff of Washoe county wrote that "..Paul Mathieu is an idiot if he thinks he doesn't need the protection of a gun. No one else will protect him.."
We are still idiots in refusing to accept the obvious result of our policies: having two hundred and fifty million handguns in circulation makes it certain that a number of them will fall in the hands of the unbalanced, the angry, the aggrieved, etc. It is not just the fact that we are idiots in thinking that guns "protect" us, it is that we elect people to represent us who maintain t idiotic policies that endanger the commonwealth, partly because of faulty judgment and mostly because of the fear of the NRA.
President Obama tries to bring some logic in the weapon arguments by pointing out that advanced countries don't have nowhere near the level of carnage from guns that we have. His argument has little traction with most Americans: "We're Number One" so we don't need to learn from others. Indeed we are Number One in killing each other. And we'll keep on doing it while righteous people quote the Second Amendment, an abomination especially as interpreted by our current Supreme Court. The righteous, who should know better, manage to justify outrages by quoting from the Constitution, just as religious extremists find it in their Korans or Bibles.
We are still idiots in refusing to accept the obvious result of our policies: having two hundred and fifty million handguns in circulation makes it certain that a number of them will fall in the hands of the unbalanced, the angry, the aggrieved, etc. It is not just the fact that we are idiots in thinking that guns "protect" us, it is that we elect people to represent us who maintain t idiotic policies that endanger the commonwealth, partly because of faulty judgment and mostly because of the fear of the NRA.
President Obama tries to bring some logic in the weapon arguments by pointing out that advanced countries don't have nowhere near the level of carnage from guns that we have. His argument has little traction with most Americans: "We're Number One" so we don't need to learn from others. Indeed we are Number One in killing each other. And we'll keep on doing it while righteous people quote the Second Amendment, an abomination especially as interpreted by our current Supreme Court. The righteous, who should know better, manage to justify outrages by quoting from the Constitution, just as religious extremists find it in their Korans or Bibles.
1
Mohammedans, Yes. Americans?
“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.” -The Recital (The Koran), Repentance 9:123
“Islam represents a religion of war not peace. Its prophet, Mohammed, is quoted in the Koran to the effect that any person or nation failing to submit to the Koran is a sinner. According to the Koran, each and every Mohammedan, therefore, has the right to wage war against these alleged sinners and, by doing so, to make prisoners and slaves of them. If killed while waging such war, a Mohammedan will enjoy the certain fate of entering Heaven.
Based upon the Koran itself, one can make a case that its believers have no place in a free, democratic, and non-theocratic society.
How can authorities discriminate those “moderate Mohammedans” who neither would wage religious war against the United States nor support such a war by deed or by thought from the tens of millions of those who would? Not by asking! Requesting a Mohammedan to pledge secular allegiance amounts to merely a futile exercise given that his religion encourages him to lie in order to further conquest in its name.
Should those already having emigrated to American shores be deported as having sworn allegiance under false pretenses? Accordingly, can any Mohammedan safely be granted citizenship or even legal residence?”
-excerpts from Inescapable Consequences (2009)
“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.” -The Recital (The Koran), Repentance 9:123
“Islam represents a religion of war not peace. Its prophet, Mohammed, is quoted in the Koran to the effect that any person or nation failing to submit to the Koran is a sinner. According to the Koran, each and every Mohammedan, therefore, has the right to wage war against these alleged sinners and, by doing so, to make prisoners and slaves of them. If killed while waging such war, a Mohammedan will enjoy the certain fate of entering Heaven.
Based upon the Koran itself, one can make a case that its believers have no place in a free, democratic, and non-theocratic society.
How can authorities discriminate those “moderate Mohammedans” who neither would wage religious war against the United States nor support such a war by deed or by thought from the tens of millions of those who would? Not by asking! Requesting a Mohammedan to pledge secular allegiance amounts to merely a futile exercise given that his religion encourages him to lie in order to further conquest in its name.
Should those already having emigrated to American shores be deported as having sworn allegiance under false pretenses? Accordingly, can any Mohammedan safely be granted citizenship or even legal residence?”
-excerpts from Inescapable Consequences (2009)
By the end of business today, every single statehouse, every single court (including the Supremes) and all of Congress should be open for concealed or open carry including "long guns". If there is a credible threat (love that term), individuals can bill whoever for body guards but otherwise gun-toting people can roam the halls unimpeded. Then and only then will these gun nuts legislators and justices feel the fear their laws have foisted on us. Why should they be assured safety from guns while denying it to others.
2
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Of course, this was drafted at a time when the typical "arm" was a musket and bayonet.
Justice Scalia and other conservative "originalist" interpreters of the Constitution would have you believe that the above phrase, taken in a strict, literal sense, authorizes any person to acquire, own and "bear" firearms as a fundamental right. A "firearm," however, is not a bullet in the strict, literal sense of the word. Firearms do not kill. Bullets kill. And is there not a literal distinction to be drawn between "bearing" a firearm and discharging a firearm?
Let the crazies keep their firearms and mount them on their walls next to their deer heads, framed Constitutions, flags and other prized trophies. In the interest of public safety, it is high time to ban and confiscate ammunition.
Justice Scalia and other conservative "originalist" interpreters of the Constitution would have you believe that the above phrase, taken in a strict, literal sense, authorizes any person to acquire, own and "bear" firearms as a fundamental right. A "firearm," however, is not a bullet in the strict, literal sense of the word. Firearms do not kill. Bullets kill. And is there not a literal distinction to be drawn between "bearing" a firearm and discharging a firearm?
Let the crazies keep their firearms and mount them on their walls next to their deer heads, framed Constitutions, flags and other prized trophies. In the interest of public safety, it is high time to ban and confiscate ammunition.
2
What part of "well regulated" don't Congress and the Supreme Court understand?
3
Cowardice. Plain and simple cowardice is what prevents any progress on sensible gun control. Shivering, quivering and quaking in their shoes, anxious politicians prevaricate, equivocate and procrastinate. So fearful of the gun and ammo lobby that they dare not even suggest reform. They stand before the microphones and urge prayer, or better mental health care, instead of what everyone knows must truly be done. Like Dorothy, the scarecrow, the tin man, and the lion frightfully stammering before the great and powerful Oz, no one bothers to expose the fraud behind curtain. The ever mounting supply of armaments in the hands of nearly any and all of our citizens is inversely proportional to the supply of courage that is required to counteract this national pathology. Is our sickness terminal, or can it cured?
1
Who hunts deer with a .223-caliber assault rifle?
There is NO purpose for a gun like that other than killing people.
None.
The right to kill people is not a Constitutional amendment.
There is NO purpose for a gun like that other than killing people.
None.
The right to kill people is not a Constitutional amendment.
4
The violence that took place in Colorado was opposite than what took
place in San Bernardino yesterday. The targets were "soft" but the
ages and motives of these killers were completely different. The killings
in San Bernardino had terrifying resemblances to how the Paris killings
took place. The F.B.I., the C.I. A. and other national and international bodies need
new standards to predict and prevent these mass killings. Obviously, local
authorities can not prevent these killings. Another problem is the suicides of
these killers. They want to die.
place in San Bernardino yesterday. The targets were "soft" but the
ages and motives of these killers were completely different. The killings
in San Bernardino had terrifying resemblances to how the Paris killings
took place. The F.B.I., the C.I. A. and other national and international bodies need
new standards to predict and prevent these mass killings. Obviously, local
authorities can not prevent these killings. Another problem is the suicides of
these killers. They want to die.
As a starter for "sensible regulations", I would say that every store, office, and theatre in San Bernardino should be required to check each entering person for weapons, which, if found, should be returned by the local police.
The individual right to keep and bear arms implies a right to deny arms entry into one's privately-owned businesses and government premises. The right of people to carry weapons does not trump private property or governmental access.
The individual right to keep and bear arms implies a right to deny arms entry into one's privately-owned businesses and government premises. The right of people to carry weapons does not trump private property or governmental access.
Nothing will change the Republican mind; shots taken at Reagan did not. Several Democrats are also not blameless. Horrifying to think of a society for our children in which everyone has a gun but no one is safe. True irony for a largely Christian nation: What would the Lord think when he reappears?
2
Yes guns kill a lot of people in the USA. This needs to be reduced. However, my concern is that eventually we are going to have to dramatically alter how our government treats us, neglects us, mass incarcerates us, increasingly oppressing us, (to say nothing of the fact that it has been the world’s major arms merchant and has destroyed societies and sovereign nations). Can revolutionizing our government towards more enlightenment be accomplished peacefully? Until the answer is a "yes" can we talk about a major modification to the 2nd amendment.
This incident is becoming a political Rorschach test. Many of the facts of this case are not yet known, but the police are tentatively hinting this may have been a carefully planned terrorist attack on an office Christmas party. NPR, the Times and Obama have all jumped on the attack as an opportunity to argue for the need for stricter gun control. But by doing so, they discredit the gun control movement, especially if this turns out to have been a terrorist assault. Would better gun control have prevented the Paris attacks? Of course not - France has among the strictest gun control laws in the world. The Times should hold its fire and try to get back to reporting facts, then weigh in with a better-informed opinion when all the facts are more clearly known.
1
How about Congress funding NIH to research gun violence?
2
Get ready. Here it comes. Another senseless mass shooting. Another tsunami of moral outrage. Another call for more gun control. Another raucous call and demonstration for gun-toting rights. Another set of excuses from politicians more interested in keeping their seats, than saving the lives of their constituents. More shouts. More pleas. More anger. More grief. It's all so deafening. And nobody seems to hear, anyway.
1
It's patently obvious that guns and people don't mix. We have 300 million guns and the NRA says the answer to our problem is more guns.
Guns are increasingly at the root of this country's problems:
Police shootings: When cops are afraid that everyone has a gun, they get trigger happy. This is is the result.
Suicide: Most people who attempt suicide but fail do not try again and live happy lives. Unfortunately, easy availability of guns means many more people are "successful"
Armed robbery: Yup, more guns means more criminals have guns.
Gang violence: More guns mean more gang members have guns
It's quite simple. If there were 1 million guns in this country instead of 300 million, there would be less guns for criminals or the mentally ill. The gun lobby has created this monster and now they are telling us we need even more guns to fight it. It makes me want to throw up.
Guns are increasingly at the root of this country's problems:
Police shootings: When cops are afraid that everyone has a gun, they get trigger happy. This is is the result.
Suicide: Most people who attempt suicide but fail do not try again and live happy lives. Unfortunately, easy availability of guns means many more people are "successful"
Armed robbery: Yup, more guns means more criminals have guns.
Gang violence: More guns mean more gang members have guns
It's quite simple. If there were 1 million guns in this country instead of 300 million, there would be less guns for criminals or the mentally ill. The gun lobby has created this monster and now they are telling us we need even more guns to fight it. It makes me want to throw up.
1
The dominant culture in our society is power and the daily projection of it through boastful language, vigilantism and gun slinging.
The gun manufacturers partner with the entertainment-hotel-resort-marketing masterminds who entice families with young girls to drop by a shooting range while on vacation to learn how to shoot and kill. And she does right then and there. A trained instructor -- a good guy with a gun – winds up dead in an instant.
Why are we surprised when guns and their glory are promoted just like Twinkies are to kids and beer is to college students? Guns and their use have become an integral part of the daily habits of way too many of our citizens.
Where are Mitch Mitchel and Paul Ryan? Why are all the GOP candidates remaining dead silent? 355 mass shootings in 2015 and not a word? What an outrage.
What a horrendous shame that the leading candidates who are polling well among "Christians" do not have a conscious or the decency to right the "insecurity wrong" they allow to persist in our towns, schools, college campuses, movie theaters, shopping malls and health clinics all over our country.
We should organize a massive work stoppage and mass protests until order is restored. We owe it to our children.
Our society is being torn apart at the seams in ways that look all too similar to the waning days of the 1850s. The Civil War came next
The gun manufacturers partner with the entertainment-hotel-resort-marketing masterminds who entice families with young girls to drop by a shooting range while on vacation to learn how to shoot and kill. And she does right then and there. A trained instructor -- a good guy with a gun – winds up dead in an instant.
Why are we surprised when guns and their glory are promoted just like Twinkies are to kids and beer is to college students? Guns and their use have become an integral part of the daily habits of way too many of our citizens.
Where are Mitch Mitchel and Paul Ryan? Why are all the GOP candidates remaining dead silent? 355 mass shootings in 2015 and not a word? What an outrage.
What a horrendous shame that the leading candidates who are polling well among "Christians" do not have a conscious or the decency to right the "insecurity wrong" they allow to persist in our towns, schools, college campuses, movie theaters, shopping malls and health clinics all over our country.
We should organize a massive work stoppage and mass protests until order is restored. We owe it to our children.
Our society is being torn apart at the seams in ways that look all too similar to the waning days of the 1850s. The Civil War came next
2
What kind of gun laws will prevent this. It is already against CA law to possess assault weapons and high capacity magazines. Background checks would not have stopped this.
Did sensible drug laws stop drug abuse? Did sensible prohibition stop alcohol abuse? Did gambling laws stop gambling? Thinking more laws would stop this is wishful thinking. The only outcome of gun laws is to deprive law abiding citizens their right to arms.
Did sensible drug laws stop drug abuse? Did sensible prohibition stop alcohol abuse? Did gambling laws stop gambling? Thinking more laws would stop this is wishful thinking. The only outcome of gun laws is to deprive law abiding citizens their right to arms.
4
Guns kill people far more than people kill people. Psychologists have long known that in many cases, it's not the finger that pulls the trigger....often, the trigger pulls the finger. The vast majority of humans would never have the conviction or fortitude to stab or strangle someone--a very personal, tactile act that reminds you your victim is indeed a human being. A gun allows quite impersonal killing. They are an inherently murderous tool, and should be treated as such. Australia had the right idea.
2
The conjured images are horrific indeed. As dependable as the spike in Black Friday sales of guns, the plaintive calls for draconian gun controls begin anew. Yet as of this writing we know very little about how LAST week’s shooter, Robert L. Dear Jr., obtained his weapons or even with what weapon or weapons he committed his murders. We know NOTHING yet about what happened in San Bernardino, except that long guns alone appear to have been involved, that one of the assailants may have had a Muslim connection, and that incendiary devices – bombs – may have figured in their plans BESIDES guns.
Since we know practically nothing about all these weapons or how the shooters came by them, we really have no basis for concluding that gun controls, had they been tighter, would have been more effective at stopping these incidents from taking place.
What’s certain is that all the calls for banning guns – and let’s please stop with offended expostulations of innocence that banning isn’t what many are after – will create a lot of ink, a lot of emotion, a hunkering down of the gun lobby and many gun owners, and that nothing will be done because absolutely zero trust exists between guns rights and gun control activists.
Let’s find out what happened, in both incidents, before we conclude without evidence that as many as 100 million Americans who own guns need to have their access to guns severely restricted to guard against the fear that another such incident may take place.
Since we know practically nothing about all these weapons or how the shooters came by them, we really have no basis for concluding that gun controls, had they been tighter, would have been more effective at stopping these incidents from taking place.
What’s certain is that all the calls for banning guns – and let’s please stop with offended expostulations of innocence that banning isn’t what many are after – will create a lot of ink, a lot of emotion, a hunkering down of the gun lobby and many gun owners, and that nothing will be done because absolutely zero trust exists between guns rights and gun control activists.
Let’s find out what happened, in both incidents, before we conclude without evidence that as many as 100 million Americans who own guns need to have their access to guns severely restricted to guard against the fear that another such incident may take place.
2
330+ mass shootings this year- so far. You only hear about the big ones or maybe one on your local news. Other countries don't put up with it. Somehow we are special. Maybe it's a leftover from all those westerns in the 40's and 50's. Maybe it's the fantasy that if you just had your own concealed pistol, you could whip it out and kill those with kevlar vests and assault rifles. Or in a darkened theater you could just open up and surely one of the people you'd hit would be the bad guy. More people with more guns- Gunsmoke.
Or we can grow up and do something reasonable.
Or we can grow up and do something reasonable.
2
Sure sounds like some kind of canned editorial. No wonder Trump is so popular these days, especially when you have tone deaf newspaper editors with opinions like this.
California is the #1 state in the country for gun control laws with a Brady Campaign score of 81.
The state is known for having the strictest gun laws found anywhere in the USA.
In California, all firearms sales, transfers, including private transactions and sales at gun shows, must go through a California licensed firearms dealer.
California also has no provision in its state constitution that explicitly guarantees an individual the right to keep and bear arms.
California is the #1 state in the country for gun control laws with a Brady Campaign score of 81.
The state is known for having the strictest gun laws found anywhere in the USA.
In California, all firearms sales, transfers, including private transactions and sales at gun shows, must go through a California licensed firearms dealer.
California also has no provision in its state constitution that explicitly guarantees an individual the right to keep and bear arms.
1
Our leaders pillory other countries for human rights violations but the human rights of so many are violated here in the United States by leaders who fail to deal with gun violence. Innocent people are slaughtered every day by guns and yet we do nothing. This is shameful.
1
Bullet-Riddled Bodies Do Not Lie. GUNS KILL. Get Them Off the Streets of America. WE must DEMAND that every gun in America must be registered on a national database, licensed and fully insured for liability. Enough talk. NOW is the time.
1
Has anyone really thought about also reforming how criminals are sentenced? I do not think non law enforcement personnel should be able to posses automatic weapons. Simply, this nation should pass laws that incarcerate people who use any weapon, in any crime, to fullest extent of the law. Additionally, if the purchase of that weapon proves to be illegal, the provider of such weapon should also be be culpable to the penalty the perpatraor receives. This nation incarcerates small time drug dealers for decades, while paroling violent felons in less time. There needs to be a serious rethinking of sentencing anyone who uses a gun - legal or or not - in any way criminal. If people who used such weapons survived their crimes and were put away for life - these crimes might diminish. Let us be sensible with the guns our citizens should be legally able to possess. Hunting, shooting competitions, and the right to bear reasonable arms all constitute mostly single chamber weapons, which could do far less harm than what we allow to be purchased today. As a nation, we should really re-evaluate the Bill of Rights - especially as we argue about unrelated issues such as immigration and foreign terrorism. We are suffering from internal terror perpetrated by citizens who abuse their rights, by using weapons to harm their law abiding neighbors.
Although a couple of crazies shooting up innocent people makes me mad, what makes me even more mad is the fact that America hasn't done a thing to stop it. So what if the NRA pumps millions into our political system? Jeb Bush is sitting on a cash cow too, and that hasn't done him much good when he doesn't have the public's support. Point is, if Hilary Clinton's numbers are correct and +90% of Americans and +80% of gun owners support responsible gun control laws, why haven't these been enacted yet? Why are we letting an increasingly radical American subculture take the rest of us hostage?
1
Americans who want to save lives need to transform into voters, well-informed voters.
1
So this is that "well regulated militia" the Second Amendment speaks of that went into action against a community center in San Bernardino?
Somehow, in the tediously predictable deluge of self-serving rhetoric shoveled out to us by the NRA and its employees in Congress, we will be assured that assault weapons in the hands of thousands of madmen is an acceptable bargain to maintain for the right to 'bear arms' to protect ourselves against....Community Centers? Family Planning Centers? School children?
Had these murderous assaults been carried out by Muslim terrorists the nation would be in convulsions of revenge, but when mostly white male crackpots fueled by hate-talk radio commit these atrocities, the nation merely sighs momentarily but goes on with business as usual the next day.
As for better mental health accessibility that Ryan alludes to, perhaps there should be an in-residence mental health facility right on the floor of Congress as they are voting for unfettered access to assault weapons.
Somehow, in the tediously predictable deluge of self-serving rhetoric shoveled out to us by the NRA and its employees in Congress, we will be assured that assault weapons in the hands of thousands of madmen is an acceptable bargain to maintain for the right to 'bear arms' to protect ourselves against....Community Centers? Family Planning Centers? School children?
Had these murderous assaults been carried out by Muslim terrorists the nation would be in convulsions of revenge, but when mostly white male crackpots fueled by hate-talk radio commit these atrocities, the nation merely sighs momentarily but goes on with business as usual the next day.
As for better mental health accessibility that Ryan alludes to, perhaps there should be an in-residence mental health facility right on the floor of Congress as they are voting for unfettered access to assault weapons.
1
Money, it's about money, and that's what this country foundation has devolved into; it addicts people to tobacco, sugar, fats and salt; it exploits people's weakness for things by seducing them to charge and live beyond their means; it fights wars so profiteers prosper. In other words, it insures a steady flow of profit by preying on people's weaknesses, fear and ignorance.
This country, once idealistic, is now in the grip of factions no better than pimps, drug suppliers and extortionists; the NRA, for example, sure knows how to exploit paranoia as they stuff their coffers with money. The more they can pray on the country's collective Id, the more money is made. It's what is called new American Exceptionalism, and the Republican Party has a PHD in this profession.
This country, once idealistic, is now in the grip of factions no better than pimps, drug suppliers and extortionists; the NRA, for example, sure knows how to exploit paranoia as they stuff their coffers with money. The more they can pray on the country's collective Id, the more money is made. It's what is called new American Exceptionalism, and the Republican Party has a PHD in this profession.
I too am appalled at all these mass killings, but I stand firm in supporting people's rights to own firearms. 300,000,000 American guns have been a total deterrent to any nation that might have had ideas of invading our nation, and has kept our government from outright military martial law in America, although mission creep is slowly getting us used to it and you are helping them with yet another editorial calling for the denial of gun ownership rights.
Tell me, seriously, honestly; if the federal government sent agents or troops to occupy and shut down the New York Times, do you think patriots would rescue the paper? It's a sincere unmalicious civil question.
Tell me, seriously, honestly; if the federal government sent agents or troops to occupy and shut down the New York Times, do you think patriots would rescue the paper? It's a sincere unmalicious civil question.
Have all gun owners be members of a "well organized militia". Then we can argue about how organized it should be, but anything is better than what we have.
We need uniform gun laws and uniform enforcement. The states have not and are not going to do this. It is well past time to mandate Federal guns laws for all gun and ammunition sales, licensing and permitting and initiation of a Federal database of gun owners in order to stop black market sales.
Yes, some gun owners and the paranoid right will complain but compare those complaints to the cost: in lives, in the wounded, who we rarely hear about, with their long road to physical and emotional recovery, and to the nation as a whole. How many more times are we going to have to endure these mass killings, now occurring weekly, let alone the daily killings and woundings which don't get much media attention?
I am tired of this. I am tired of American gun terrorism.
Yes, some gun owners and the paranoid right will complain but compare those complaints to the cost: in lives, in the wounded, who we rarely hear about, with their long road to physical and emotional recovery, and to the nation as a whole. How many more times are we going to have to endure these mass killings, now occurring weekly, let alone the daily killings and woundings which don't get much media attention?
I am tired of this. I am tired of American gun terrorism.
Here's what I just don't get - no rights, in the constitution or elsewhere, are absolute. The state can take your life (death penalty) notwithstanding the "right to life, liberty, etc." clause; rights, in pluralistic societies, always involve a balancing act. So, why is it that gun rights get a free right - I see very few, if any, challenges to the NRA and such others who maintain that the 2nd amendment trumps all other rights. It doesn't . . . and here's another tidbit - Americans spend gazillions protecting themselves against threats of terrorism, a real but most rare event, but nary a thought to protecting themselves against killers in their midst (a much more probable threat).
1
I remember many years ago I was an in Israel. Some of us were sitting in a coffee shop when we heard an explosion. People got up, started wondering what was happening, and then, after a while, sat down and started sipping coffee again.
A few minutes later there was a second explosion. The customers got up, and slowly wandered away. There was no panic.
While I do not agree with the way Netanyahu acts, I do have to admire a country with courage.
A few minutes later there was a second explosion. The customers got up, and slowly wandered away. There was no panic.
While I do not agree with the way Netanyahu acts, I do have to admire a country with courage.
2
It's too difficult to uncover mental illness, and track it. Not so with weapons. Do what is possible -- go after the weapons.
The mental health mantra is a red herring.
The mental health mantra is a red herring.
1
In 1833 Supreme court Justice Joseph Story suspected where the second amendment would lead if the universal right to bear arms was allowed to stand, while a well regulated militia was abandoned. He couldn't have been more accurate.
"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them. And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations. How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights.
"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them. And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations. How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights.
Not one comment - nor this editorial - addresses what causes this. It's not the gun. It's the person. It's the person's decision making process. It's the person's sickness . It's the person's hatred. It's the person's lack of empathy. It's the person's lack of respect for life. It's the person's misguided (to say the least) view of the world. not one comment addresses what might actually stop people from killing themselves and others with a firearm. Not one comment address the human heart. Not one comment addresses love. Not one comment suggests that religious teaching adreases all these issues. Not one comment is anything but reactionary. Not one comment gives me any hope. I know it's a radical idea to talk about finding a reason to live, a reason to love, a reason to protect life, a reason to live for others instead of ones self. It's radical to say anything other than religion is only for the weak and cowardly and kooks. It's radical to stand up and defend religious acts , religious speech, religious lives. But it's time to acknowledge that the demonization of those who believe and the trivialization of the teachings , symbols, and text have resulted in the society we have today.
7
Comments in online comment sections are overwhelmingly angry. We are ever more angry at institutions, leaders, political opponents, football, and each other. Most blogs are angry. Most of the news media is angry. Criminals and their victims are angry. Minorities are angry. The majority is angry. Politicians and numerous other public figures are angry. We seem confident that mass shooters have nothing in common with us. But one thing for sure -- they, like most of us, are way too angry.
3
When you consider that the first response to mass shootings is to express outrage, before the facts are even discovered, you see that outrage is the common denominator.
Interestingly, there is little outrage over the routine gun murders in the inner cities. The silence on those murders is deafening. Instead, rage is directed toward people with whom those raging have political issue.
Partisanship is another common denominator.
Interestingly, there is little outrage over the routine gun murders in the inner cities. The silence on those murders is deafening. Instead, rage is directed toward people with whom those raging have political issue.
Partisanship is another common denominator.
2
Imagine the San Bernardino killings would have been perpetrated by ISIS. We would not hesitate to spend billions of dollars of attacking ISIS, perhaps sending ground troops, and spare neither effort nor money to defeat ISIS once and for all. Yet, for killings that cumulatively far exceed anything that ISIS could possibly do, we do what? Nothing! Over 10,000 victims of gun violence annually and we do not do anything beyond hand-wringing, but 200 - or 300 well publicized killings by a far away terrorist organization and we do not spare any military effort, no matter how costly pr drawen out? It is a mind-boggling case of national schizophrenia, where even the last shred of a rational response has gone missing.
2
With all due respect - what do you recommend we do? The editorial says people have rejected "sensible gun controls". What the heck is that! I do wish that the President of the NRA would come out and publicly denounce such violence as their silence is deafing.
You liberals! Can't wait to start spreading anti-gun slander! You should at least wait a decent length of time after a tragedy like this before you start complaining!
Oh wait. We seem to have one of these mass gun killings every few days. We can't get the victims from one mass killing buried before we have a new bunch of victims bleeding to death after the next one.
You Liberals! This means that you should never complain about mass killings because there are always people being shot to death in mass killings and you should refrain from commenting on the situation any time because they are happening all the time.
God save the 2nd Amendment.
Oh wait. We seem to have one of these mass gun killings every few days. We can't get the victims from one mass killing buried before we have a new bunch of victims bleeding to death after the next one.
You Liberals! This means that you should never complain about mass killings because there are always people being shot to death in mass killings and you should refrain from commenting on the situation any time because they are happening all the time.
God save the 2nd Amendment.
2
It's beginning to look a lot like a moderately well planned terrorism attack. Enough with the gun control blather. More on the terrorism link.
5
Only one way out - repeal the 2nd Amendment.
1
There is a much deeper problem in this country beyond the availability of guns. There are a lot of really angry people looking for ways to free themselves of their hate and inner turmoil by killing people, and then themselves. Guns are only one means by which to do this because they are extremely effective, more so than pocket knifes, rope, or bows and arrows. Ideologues on on all sides of the political spectrum fuel the fires of hate as the vicious circle continues to drive all of us downward. And no, it won't ever stop until we want it to.
Campaign money from NRA prevents US Congress discuss any gun control related issues and most of the money has gone to Republicans campaign war chests. Massacres in the United States have become an integral part of Americans daily life.
It indirectly helps ISIS and saves ISIS resources since NRA and Republicans are working for ISIS killing Americans. The saved resources can attack cities like Paris.
It indirectly helps ISIS and saves ISIS resources since NRA and Republicans are working for ISIS killing Americans. The saved resources can attack cities like Paris.
This is California, a heavily regulated state. Like the attacks in France with similarly stringent regulations, this horrible act could not be prevented by more edicts. Take guns from responsible people and you have only sociopathic or crazy or just plain evil people with guns.
2
Wait a second. California has by far the strictest gun control laws in America. They are the national template for "sensible" gun laws.
More laws and regulations are not the answer. And giving up your guns is definitely not the answer. Dealing with mental illness and Islamic terrorism are the only two answers.
More laws and regulations are not the answer. And giving up your guns is definitely not the answer. Dealing with mental illness and Islamic terrorism are the only two answers.
3
I would think America's enemies - ISIS and their ilk - would much rather US gun laws remained as lax as they are. After all, they want as many Americans dead as possible, and will be happy that Congress is doing their work for them.
1
All the left - right politics aside, in this instance it was a terrorist attack. The two 'suspects' were both of Muslim heritage. One a devout American Muslin, the other, a female from Qatar. Both were, according to preliminary reports radicalized. What we need is not gun control, which obviously doesn't work as assault weapons are already illegal as were the 3 potential pipe bombs that were found, to say nothing of the pressure cooker bomb in Boston, but an administration that actually takes Islamic terrorism seriously.
5
Let's put the blame for the horrible, senseless slaughter of innocents by deranged automatic gun owners--with the Republican party, and it's donors in the NRA, and with gun manufacturers basically bribing GOP politicians. There should be a halt to the sale of automatic weapons, and a buy-back program for all the automatic weapons in the hands of marginally educated, willful misinterpreters of the Second Amendment.
2
Automatic weapons have been illegal to sell or possess since the mid-1930s, except under very limited circumstances (some licensed dealers with the need to possess them, etc.). They are simply illegal. We may not have them, and the courts have upheld them.
None of which prevented San Bernardino.
None of which prevented San Bernardino.
There are 10 TIMES as many people killed in gun violence in the US EVERY MONTH than were killed in the Paris terrorist attack. The real war is right here, in our house, than on foreign shores.
2
Why does the board immediately bang the gun control drum every time there is a shooting? Do these constant editorials change anything? Has any gun control legislation resulted from them?
According to the FBI there are 33,000 gangs and 1.4 million gang members in this country. What is the board's plan to disarm them. I have yet to see it. Why is that? Do you think they will just turn them over? What is their plan to disarm all the convicted felons who are walking our streets today with a weapon. They do not buy them through legal channels so how do you stop them?
The board does not understand the criminal mindset at all because if they did they'd know that no matter how many gun restrictions they put in place criminals will never follow them
Why are they going to follow the laws that got them locked up, that took away their freedom? They don't respect your laws and nothing you can say or do will change that. They are not willing to work a 9-5 job. They want what they want and they want it yesterday. Criminals want immediate gratification. They want it now. They are not willing to wait
I was a parole agent for the CDCR for 23 years. I talked to inmates every day. They are very candid and very matter of fact. They know that a gun represents power and power is something they completely lost in prison and they want that back. A gun represents compliance, fear, power, domination. It ensures they will get just what they want. It also means they are willing to kill you to take it.
According to the FBI there are 33,000 gangs and 1.4 million gang members in this country. What is the board's plan to disarm them. I have yet to see it. Why is that? Do you think they will just turn them over? What is their plan to disarm all the convicted felons who are walking our streets today with a weapon. They do not buy them through legal channels so how do you stop them?
The board does not understand the criminal mindset at all because if they did they'd know that no matter how many gun restrictions they put in place criminals will never follow them
Why are they going to follow the laws that got them locked up, that took away their freedom? They don't respect your laws and nothing you can say or do will change that. They are not willing to work a 9-5 job. They want what they want and they want it yesterday. Criminals want immediate gratification. They want it now. They are not willing to wait
I was a parole agent for the CDCR for 23 years. I talked to inmates every day. They are very candid and very matter of fact. They know that a gun represents power and power is something they completely lost in prison and they want that back. A gun represents compliance, fear, power, domination. It ensures they will get just what they want. It also means they are willing to kill you to take it.
2
As often as I take exceptions to HBG's comments, and they usually emphatic disagreements, this time I have to agree with him, 100%.
President Obama spoke today before the police had confronted the gunmen, to argue that a person on a no-fly list can legally buy a gun. But Homeland Security continues to place thousands of people on its no-fly list by mistake, including Senators and Congressmen.
For once, Obama ought to explain how a no-fly status would have prevented the San Bernadino or Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shootings.
And while the Times and the President both oppose the idea of restoring universal gun ownership, they never answer the obvious questions: Who ought to have a gun, when they ought to have it, and when should they have the right to use it? Is there a universal right to self-defense with a firearm when threatened by criminal violence from someone with a firearm?
Can the right to own a firearm, for instance, ever save the life of someone, such as in the recent two mass shootings, who would be prohibited by present state and federal laws (like an Obama no-fly list ban) from owning one?
A 2014 mass shooting at Upper Darby, PA says, "Yes"; but the Times, Mrs Bill Clinton, and Pres. Obama say "No."
Training law-abiding citizens is the only effective gun control under our present Constitution. But Civics and the U.S. Constitution are no longer required subjects in most public high schools. Why not?
For once, Obama ought to explain how a no-fly status would have prevented the San Bernadino or Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shootings.
And while the Times and the President both oppose the idea of restoring universal gun ownership, they never answer the obvious questions: Who ought to have a gun, when they ought to have it, and when should they have the right to use it? Is there a universal right to self-defense with a firearm when threatened by criminal violence from someone with a firearm?
Can the right to own a firearm, for instance, ever save the life of someone, such as in the recent two mass shootings, who would be prohibited by present state and federal laws (like an Obama no-fly list ban) from owning one?
A 2014 mass shooting at Upper Darby, PA says, "Yes"; but the Times, Mrs Bill Clinton, and Pres. Obama say "No."
Training law-abiding citizens is the only effective gun control under our present Constitution. But Civics and the U.S. Constitution are no longer required subjects in most public high schools. Why not?
5
Obviously, people can prove they are on the list by mistake. Once they are cleared they would be able to buy their guns. This isn't rocket science: it is simple reason.
What a predictably dumb and naïve NYT editorial. The Left needs to understand something about these shootings, because you clearly do not: these guns are all semi-automatic. They're not "assault" weapons just because they have mean looking accessories on them. Every mass shooting has been with standard semi auto handguns and rifles. No amount of gun control will cut down on the weapons that the Left thinks are being used. I mean, listening to an uneducated person trying to talk about guns is just mind-numbingly dumb; the inability to differentiate between even semi auto and automatic is striking. It's nearly impossible (though legal but costing about $50-60k) to buy automatic weapons.
The fact is that violence is a cultural problem. The Left loves to belittle people that have traditional values, the people that don't let their kids watch violent movies and play violent games, but then they bemoan gun violence and pretend that there are easy answers like gun control or mental illness regulations. Not to proselytize, but when you try to take God out of society, when you say that morality is relative, your society will be open to violence. It's not that normal, well-adjusted people will play violent games or watch violent movies and then start killing people, however, those who are susceptible to these things will respond to a society that encourages them.
The fact is that violence is a cultural problem. The Left loves to belittle people that have traditional values, the people that don't let their kids watch violent movies and play violent games, but then they bemoan gun violence and pretend that there are easy answers like gun control or mental illness regulations. Not to proselytize, but when you try to take God out of society, when you say that morality is relative, your society will be open to violence. It's not that normal, well-adjusted people will play violent games or watch violent movies and then start killing people, however, those who are susceptible to these things will respond to a society that encourages them.
9
Other countries have violent media and games. They have a fraction of the gun killings and mass killings that the U.S. has. The difference is the access to weapons, which include the semi-automatic and assault weapons. Some weapons can be easily changed. Access to high-capacity ammunition clips is part of the problem also.
Well put. These craven politicians have a lot of blood on their hands.
2
I certainly agree with The Times's pro-gun control editorial, but they may have prematurely jumped on the wrong narrative this time. It seems increasingly likely that the perpetrators were in fact Isis-inspired Islamic terrorists. If so, bemoaning the lack of gun control would be as off the point as it would have been to do so after the Paris massacre. Determined, well-funded terrorists will get hold of their weapons, no matter how strict or lax the laws.
8
So far this campaign season, popular talking points include: creating a vast, national database for all American Muslims; building a massive wall with Mexico and sending them the bill; returning refugees to war-zones; spying on places of worship; enfeebling Putin; decimating ISIS; but basic gun regulation? No! That would be impossible, immoral and un-American. Next item: repealing the ACA and writing Constitutional Amendments forbidding gay marriage...
1
The "logical" progression you describe is akin to a yellow brick mobius strip.
The Muslim registry is up three points in the morning trading.
The lead shooter has been identified as Sayed Farook, who friends and family say had become increasingly more religiously 'devout' in the past 2 years. One wonders: devout Methodist? Quaker? Buddhist, perhaps? It's not like he would be a fundamentalist Islamist, or anything. After all, jihadists don't join the evil NRA. And they usually don't buy their guns at the local gun shop. The porous Mexican border, unprotected by our federal government, allows for a gun-shopper's paradise. Jihadists aren't for or against gun control measures. They simply employ guns as a means to eradicate the fools who think there is an argument to be had there in the first place.
3
Americans generally are very naive when it comes to names. Any foreign sounding name is exotic, they don't know what name is connected with what religion, although the Abrahamic siblings share common names and roots. Hispanics of Catholic faith perhaps don't understand Muslim sounding names or even Jewish names. Americans can't tell a South Asian apart from a Middle Eastern or North African or Central Asian, or even South East asian Muslim from Indonesia, Malaysia. They do not understand a Sikh wearing a head turban is not a Muslim. They mistake Hindus from South Asia to be Middle eastern. Major confusion.
1
Living on the edge of that "porous, unprotected Border" I can tell you it's anything but. I see the border patrol every day, in traffic, in the air, out in the desert where I hike, hunt, and walk my dog. They're on foot, horseback and ATVs. They pursue gun, drug and people smugglers with a passion you obviously have no clue about. Does some contraband get across? You bet. But their interdiction rate is by no means trivial and your claim is specious.
For once I'd like to see the New York Times acknowledge that opposition to gun control is bi-partisan. If the Democrats wanted to do something about guns they could have done so long ago, when they had Congressional majorities as well as the Presidency. Maybe your next editorial on the subject should start with Bernie Sanders, a Vermonter who claims the rest of us just don't understand small states' love affair with guns.
6
90% of all Americans want universal gun background checks, and they want the gun sale loopholes closed. How much more bipartisan can you get?
The story is still developing and you've already written a gun control editorial? Seriously? You probably have them written so you can take advantage of the next tragedy to advance your agenda of stripping away American's rights. Disarming those who obey the law will have zero effect on those who will never obey any law that prevents them from meeting their goals. You should write an editorial on how your gun control proposals would have prevented this, or any other recent tragedy.
The utopia you wish existed where no guns threaten anyone, ever, is just that. A wish.
The utopia you wish existed where no guns threaten anyone, ever, is just that. A wish.
6
Just this morning, a group of doctors "arrived on Capitol Hill to deliver a petition to Congress. Signed by more than 2,000 physicians around the country, it pleads with lawmakers to lift a restriction that for nearly two decades has essentially blocked the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention from conducting research on gun violence."
Imagine, doctors having to go to Congress to BEG them to make it legal just to study gun violence the way they study any disease causing the deaths of thousands of Americans each year.
But Congress and their puppeteers know why they don't want any substantial data about American gun violence. Though some Democrats in congress meekly claim they are against this out of control gun situation, they might work a little harder to actually do something if the voters gave them the ultimatum.
And with no expectation that Congress will lift a finger, I wish the various gun control groups like Everytown and Brady Campaign would join together to be a loud, powerful force and really fight back this insanity.
Imagine, doctors having to go to Congress to BEG them to make it legal just to study gun violence the way they study any disease causing the deaths of thousands of Americans each year.
But Congress and their puppeteers know why they don't want any substantial data about American gun violence. Though some Democrats in congress meekly claim they are against this out of control gun situation, they might work a little harder to actually do something if the voters gave them the ultimatum.
And with no expectation that Congress will lift a finger, I wish the various gun control groups like Everytown and Brady Campaign would join together to be a loud, powerful force and really fight back this insanity.
1
Mass shootings are becoming like drunk driving deaths -- something society expresses horror about, but which it actually tolerates because of the economic forces involved (alcohol lobby and gun lobby). Meanwhile the media follow the dictum of "if it bleeds, it leads."
Meanwhile, as individuals we are far more at risk from impaired drivers than we are from mass shooters or terrorists.
Meanwhile, as individuals we are far more at risk from impaired drivers than we are from mass shooters or terrorists.
The carnage and gun madness in this country must stop! If Republican politicians won't enact basic gun background checks, won't close the loopholes, will let terrorist suspects buy guns and massive amounts of ammunition with no trouble, then vote them all out.
The usual NRA and gun apologists are spouting their usual blather. The absolute fact is that other countries also have people with mental health problems, violent media and video games, knives, and ways of getting weapons illegally.
But only the United States has mass killings and gun homicides on anywhere near this scale and with this frequency. Ordinary citizens have no need for military weapons, nor do they needs hundreds of rounds of ammunition. The NRA is a cancer on American society. It should be classified as a terrorism supporter.
The usual NRA and gun apologists are spouting their usual blather. The absolute fact is that other countries also have people with mental health problems, violent media and video games, knives, and ways of getting weapons illegally.
But only the United States has mass killings and gun homicides on anywhere near this scale and with this frequency. Ordinary citizens have no need for military weapons, nor do they needs hundreds of rounds of ammunition. The NRA is a cancer on American society. It should be classified as a terrorism supporter.
When a government is paralyzed to the extent that it cannot protect its own citizens from this kind of mayhem, it has essentially lost sovereignty. It no longer controls what goes on within its own borders. This is what we have seen in parts of Mexico, where drug cartels have disabled the Mexican government. In America, it is the gun lobby that has disabled the our government.
1
Some of the worse illnesses are autoimmune. The damage to the patient is not from an invading microbe but the patient's own defenses attacking her body. It seems that something analogous is happening to our country. We live in fear so we accumulate personal arsenals, militarize our police, mass incarcerate our citizens and gun each other down in the streets. Then we buy more guns and order up more Bearcats for the cops. In the name of safety we are self destructing. Diagnosis: National Autoimmune Syndrome.
yeah. strict guns laws worked so well in France. I assume it was neo-Nazi Americans who are selling guns there illegally?
6
the difference between us and France is that they don't have a mass shooting every day of the week, so I'd say there system works a lot better than ours.
violent death outside the US does not count because it cannot be put on Red Necks. Blue blood NYT readers are so educated that they know everything about not much. Hope that the victims remembered that the real threat is Global warming, and that Hillary's worst enemies are the 50% other side of our Democracy.
Those who say that things won't change because the NRA is too powerful, blahblahblah, are just lazy. The majority of Americans want sane gun laws, but the majority of Americans are too apathetic to pick up their phones and call their Congressmen to demand such laws. Pretty much anyone not blinded by his addiction to his guns would conclude, upon sober reflection, that a country where no one had guns would be a much safer, saner place. And yet, even to imagine "reasonable gun control" laws is out of the question. We are a sick, puerile, and lazy people, yanked around like a drugged bear on a leash by the worst elements among us, and those in turn manipulated through fear and bigotry by a few truely evil crooks getting rich selling weapons of our massive self-destruction. We are a very bad joke.
After each mass shooting, gun supporters say no law would have prevented it. No law will prevent a determined criminal from obtaining a gun.
While this "logic" doesn't hold water, it's time we make big changes to end the carnage.
-repeal the 2nd Amendment
-pass very strict gun control laws
-require every gun to be registered and insured
-ban private gun manufacturers
-set goals to get rid of most privately owned guns within 10 years
England and Australia, among other countries, have strong gun laws and very little gun violence. We should do likewise.
While this "logic" doesn't hold water, it's time we make big changes to end the carnage.
-repeal the 2nd Amendment
-pass very strict gun control laws
-require every gun to be registered and insured
-ban private gun manufacturers
-set goals to get rid of most privately owned guns within 10 years
England and Australia, among other countries, have strong gun laws and very little gun violence. We should do likewise.
36
There is at least a blocking minority of states, as large as Texas, as small in population as Montana, where being for gun control is political death. How does your proposal not fail at the first post?
What you desire and describe is indeed a brave new world.
At least Eric has the courage to spell out what he wants in gun control legislation. I think most anti-gun commentators constantly push "sensible" gun control when they really have Eric's agenda in mind. If you want to know why gun right supporters are concerned with ever increasing gun laws, it's because they know its a start down a path to total elimination. When a ban on hi-cap magazines don't work, let's move on to banning handguns. When that doesn't work, let's move on to rifles, etc. etc. Eric, while I don't agree with you, I respect your honesty.
It's too late. These shootings will never abate. Neither the NRA nor the Republicans will ever allow any meaningful gun control measures to be taken.
When someone purchases a gun, they should have to pay a tax. The gun manufacturer should also have to pay a tax. A tax should also be collected on ammunition. The taxes should be significant ( I suggest at least 25% of the purchase price) - this could be a great revenue source for local, county, and state governments who must expend millions of dollars on law enforcement and the residual results of gun violence. One of the ramifications of the rampant gun violence in this country is the cost to the taxpayer. Since conservatives are fiscal conservatives, they should support collecting taxes and/or fees from the sale and ownership of guns to deal with the resulting costs to society. Andy by the way, we should hammer home the fact that mass killings are domestic terrorism. When a mass shooting occurs, the headlines should clearly state "Another case of domestic terrorism has occurred in (fill in the blank). Since conservatives are so worried about terrorism, we need to continually point out that their failure to act is contributing to the terrorism occurring in this country. It's pretty hard to take these people seriously when these domestic terrorism incidents occur almost daily, but they are afraid to admit completely vetted refugees from war.
97
The courts have ruled you can't burden a constitutional right more heavily than you do ordinary commerce. Otherwise we could consider a $5 per copy environmental tax on newspapers available online that have a wasteful paper edition.
Removing millions of guns would be even harder than removing millions of illegal immigrants, and no one thinks it's rational to try to remove them.
It's time for a rational discussion about guns. First step is to accept that guns cannot simply be confiscated.
It's time for a rational discussion about guns. First step is to accept that guns cannot simply be confiscated.
4
picking up millions of illegal immigrants is not rational, removing millions of guns is rational. By the way, it was hard to go to the moon but we did that. America is the strongest greatest country in the world, yet so many say we can't control guns, pretty sad.
Time for leaders to think outside the barrel. Arming imagined heroes is a dangerous fantasy. Arming college students is reckless. Gunlust feeds on itself. We need legislation to halt this pathology, not hasten it.
Material progress in reducing gun violence is more likely if the focus is placed on gun safety rather than gun control. See "Large Majority of Americans -- Including Gun Owners -- Support Stronger Gun Safety Policies" at http://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2015/large-majority-of-americans....
The "large majority" in June 2015 ranged from 67% to 83% favoring various changes including among others universal background checks and 10-year bans on gun ownership for juveniles convicted of serious crimes and for those convicted of domestic violence offenses.
With such super majorities having persisted for years, advocates for gun safety should turn the 2016 election into a one-issue election for some NRA "A-rated" (highest ) members of Congress. Focus on the 25 or 30 A-rated Representatives and Senators elected most recently by the smallest margins and deliver the message that certain gun safety measures will be enacted within six months or they will targeted for defeat.
The "large majority" in June 2015 ranged from 67% to 83% favoring various changes including among others universal background checks and 10-year bans on gun ownership for juveniles convicted of serious crimes and for those convicted of domestic violence offenses.
With such super majorities having persisted for years, advocates for gun safety should turn the 2016 election into a one-issue election for some NRA "A-rated" (highest ) members of Congress. Focus on the 25 or 30 A-rated Representatives and Senators elected most recently by the smallest margins and deliver the message that certain gun safety measures will be enacted within six months or they will targeted for defeat.
1
We favor some things yes, as acceptable as a final settlement of the gun issue. But the Brady Center, if it got those things, would not disband, but would move on to next steps towards taking guns from private possession.
So, no. Not an inch.
So, no. Not an inch.
It's all well and good to make more laws or even ban guns outright. Hey, I don't own a gun and don't want one. But the fact is there are 300 MILLION guns in America. Heck, my old neighbor made his own guns -- and ammo! With the advent of 3D printing, you don't even have to be handy at gunsmithing to make a gun. And as Bloomberg reported, regarding the attempt to control black market guns in the Philippines, "The gunsmiths thrive even as police regularly raid backyard operations."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-11-13/farmers-copying-guns-a...
I'm afraid any attempt to control guns in America is a few hundred years too late.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-11-13/farmers-copying-guns-a...
I'm afraid any attempt to control guns in America is a few hundred years too late.
4
The gun lobby is an accomplice to these killings, the politicians who bow to these accomplices are pure and simple COWARDS. Both are shameless. God forbid any of their loved ones are victims of these killings. COWARDS!
1
As an owner of four guns, I am strongly in favor of new regulations. For starters, we can regulate guns similar to how we regulate vehicles. Require:
- Registration and licensing with periodic renewals of each.
- Liability insurance to fund victim compensation. (Guns kill people, just like cars do.)
- A hefty tax on gun sales (like the "sin" taxes on alcohol and cigarettes)
The constitution guarantees the right to own guns. It doesn't guarantee that they will be cheap, easily available, and free from reasonable responsibility.
- Registration and licensing with periodic renewals of each.
- Liability insurance to fund victim compensation. (Guns kill people, just like cars do.)
- A hefty tax on gun sales (like the "sin" taxes on alcohol and cigarettes)
The constitution guarantees the right to own guns. It doesn't guarantee that they will be cheap, easily available, and free from reasonable responsibility.
196
Makes sense. Let's face it, we are not going to eradicate gun ownership in this country, nor are we going to entirely eliminate gun violence. But measures such as those you suggest can reinforce responsibility, which is sorely lacking in cases like SB, Aurora, Newtown, etc.
The rules for owning and operating a gun should be analogous to those for a car. License, title, registration, insurance. Why would anyone object to that?
There's no such thing as a 'good guy' with a gun. The minute you arm yourself, you're just a terrorist waiting for an excuse to kill.
1
I don't care what Paul Ryan says. The American people overwhelmingly support and deserve sensible gun control legislation. This problem will be solved without Republican buy-in. The best we can hope for is a Democratic landslide in 2016 to enact meaningful federal limits on who can own guns and what kinds of firearms can be sold.
2
People, the NRA "wins" every election because the GOP has a lot of single-issue constituents who actually vote. If their candidates don't follow the NRA line, they vote them out, regardless of whatever else is on the ballot. It's time for people who want gun control to do the same. Demand that your elected representatives vote for serious gun control, regardless of anything else that's on the ballot, and get rid of them. And VOTE. EVERY. TIME. Make it the most important issue on the table. Otherwise, the other side will beat us every time. And something else will happen if you do this ... the candidates who support reasonable gun control also support the other issues that are important to people who care about a truly civil society. The ripple effect could literally change the country. Nothing else can do it. You have to make politicians pay for the decisions they make.
5
i highly suspect that the killers in this case were not members of the NRA, or Republicans. One might be better served to ask what groups these people did belong?
As much as I wish I could snap my fingers and make all of these powerful weapons go away, that will not stop the mass killings. These guns are the enablers. They make the killing much easier, but they are not the root cause. We try to blame mental illness, but that too is just an excuse. The root problem is not a few sick individuals. The root cause is a sick society.
Our society functions as a collective, not as individual actors. The collective has been infected with the sickness of loss of respect for others, to the point that some have lost respect for others to even exist. This is a similar illness to the social disease that causes Islamic terrorism. Lethal violence then becomes an acceptable response.
It all starts with hate speech. Then hate speech leads to hate thoughts, which then leads to hate actions. This entire process is based upon the demonization of others. It's all around us. It's in media, games, and yes, presidential politics.
We are creating mass shooters just as terrorists are created by their communities.
I submit that today's shooters are not insane, but yet they are sick. To participate in a mass shooting means one has separated from the community. One is no longer a member, but an outsider. That allows them to justify pulling the trigger.
The loss of community, fed by constant virulent hate speech everywhere, coupled with instant and easy access to powerful weapons is destroying our society, literally.
Our society functions as a collective, not as individual actors. The collective has been infected with the sickness of loss of respect for others, to the point that some have lost respect for others to even exist. This is a similar illness to the social disease that causes Islamic terrorism. Lethal violence then becomes an acceptable response.
It all starts with hate speech. Then hate speech leads to hate thoughts, which then leads to hate actions. This entire process is based upon the demonization of others. It's all around us. It's in media, games, and yes, presidential politics.
We are creating mass shooters just as terrorists are created by their communities.
I submit that today's shooters are not insane, but yet they are sick. To participate in a mass shooting means one has separated from the community. One is no longer a member, but an outsider. That allows them to justify pulling the trigger.
The loss of community, fed by constant virulent hate speech everywhere, coupled with instant and easy access to powerful weapons is destroying our society, literally.
3
Bruce....a succinct description of America today!
I always vote GOP for President. I shot my first deer in when I was in high school. I'm generally pro-gun. But, I'm disgusted with the most common denominator in these mass shootings - weapons of war. AR-15s and high capacity magazines. Weapons of war. The term is nearly as brilliant as 'death tax' honestly. The guy from The National Review who always wears the same shoes on The McLaughlin Group says one needs high capacity magazines for home defense given average hit rates. Even cops have hit rates at 20% or thereabouts, so it's a clever argument. But VP Biden offers a better argument: if you want to defend your home, get a shotgun. Most people wanting or owning AR-15s are getting ready for the apocolypse, zombie or otherwise. They're getting ready for a war. Ban weapons of war. But you will pry my deer rifle from my cold dead fingers.
67
You make an important point and distinction. However, you are among the minority. Too many people think that all guns are good or bad. There is a difference between being a hunter and being a fanatic who wants to kill people. Should hunters be allowed to own guns that are designed for hunting deer, or fowl, or other big game? Yes, provided that they pass background checks, use and store them responsibly, and don't fancy themselves as crack shots or obliged to defend themselves at every turn with a gun.
2
While of course I agree with your editorial, I think it omits the point that matters. According to the Brady Campaign to prevent gun violence, 108,000 American suffer from gun violence every year: that's one person shot in America every five minutes. Every. Five. Minutes. Every day of every year.
We share the grief of those whose loved ones die and suffer wounds in mass shootings, but we won't muster the courage to impose gun safety on the gun profits lobby until we face the true horror that they impose on all Americans every five minutes of each day, year in and year out.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/key-gun-violence-statistics
We share the grief of those whose loved ones die and suffer wounds in mass shootings, but we won't muster the courage to impose gun safety on the gun profits lobby until we face the true horror that they impose on all Americans every five minutes of each day, year in and year out.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/key-gun-violence-statistics
4
Well Gee we already have "common sense" gun laws. Many are not effectively used especially in relation to mentally ill individuals. When you have a free society some are free to do evil, or criminal actions. How about the president address the violence and corruption in his home city and state. That would be a great thing that he will never even consider.
1
ENOUGH!!!
again?
when are sane people in this nation realize that guns should not be available to every Dick Tom & Harry? Guns should only be available to active military personnel in the line of duty.
ENOUGH!
oh, sane people? are there any sane people in Congress?
Obviously not. My mistake.
again?
when are sane people in this nation realize that guns should not be available to every Dick Tom & Harry? Guns should only be available to active military personnel in the line of duty.
ENOUGH!
oh, sane people? are there any sane people in Congress?
Obviously not. My mistake.
3
Another shooting, another attempt to use a tragedy to talk about gun control. It is never going to happen. Why is that difficult to understand? Why can't we focus on other methods to stop gun violence for once?
The Prevention Institute recommends seven ways to stop gun violence: establishing a culture of gun safety; ensuring accessible and high quality mental health treatment; reducing children's exposure to violence; sensible gun laws; citywide planning and implementation of comprehensive violence protection plans; and restoring the CDC's freedom to study the issue of gun violence.
There are six to choose from here that do not involve going against the NRA but could easily prevent more homicides. Pick one. If that doesn't work, add another. Maybe eventually we can get to gun control laws, but we are wasting time with this discussion.
The Prevention Institute recommends seven ways to stop gun violence: establishing a culture of gun safety; ensuring accessible and high quality mental health treatment; reducing children's exposure to violence; sensible gun laws; citywide planning and implementation of comprehensive violence protection plans; and restoring the CDC's freedom to study the issue of gun violence.
There are six to choose from here that do not involve going against the NRA but could easily prevent more homicides. Pick one. If that doesn't work, add another. Maybe eventually we can get to gun control laws, but we are wasting time with this discussion.
2
Casey -- "Sensible gun laws" is 4th on the list. Sensible gun laws go against the NRA.
Looks like it reinforces the need to elect a president who will realize we are on the receiving end of a holy war, and who will actually do something kinetic about it-- something more than fabricating another global wealth redistribution scheme, as if that will affect the climate, let alone the Islamic terrorists. #thanksobama
1
Screening gun buyers will always be of limited use in ending gun violence. No one buying a gun has ever has been denied a permit for being disgruntled.
However, the very act of buying an assault rifle should cause immediate concern, because an AR serves only one purpose, which is the perpetuation of mayhem.
Why are they still available in this supposedly advanced country?
However, the very act of buying an assault rifle should cause immediate concern, because an AR serves only one purpose, which is the perpetuation of mayhem.
Why are they still available in this supposedly advanced country?
8
Doesn't California already have "sensible gun controls"? According to the Brady campaign, California gun laws score as well as any state in the country.
And I suppose you think people can't drive across state lines to get their weapons?
1
This is insanity.
Insanity has been defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
The reaction to gun violence in this country is quite predictable:
1. Liberals would say there should be more done to get guns away from people.
2. Conservatives would trot out their usual second amendment argument and defend the rights of everyone and their mother to have guns.
3. Nothing gets done.
1, 2 and 3 will be repeated after the next episode of gun violence, validating the above definition of insanity.
In the meantime, more blood flows, more lives are lost and more lives are shattered. Insanity, indeed.
Insanity has been defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
The reaction to gun violence in this country is quite predictable:
1. Liberals would say there should be more done to get guns away from people.
2. Conservatives would trot out their usual second amendment argument and defend the rights of everyone and their mother to have guns.
3. Nothing gets done.
1, 2 and 3 will be repeated after the next episode of gun violence, validating the above definition of insanity.
In the meantime, more blood flows, more lives are lost and more lives are shattered. Insanity, indeed.
3
If insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results what is the term for doing nothing over and over again?
Any form of gun control seems futile and half hearted. It has to be all or nothing. I doubt much will change until there is outright ban on guns. For sure citizens can purchase sporting guns but they need to be stored at a licensed gun range or hunting facility. Simple.
1
A quick look at City Data.com reveals that San Bernardino sports 21 murders per year (per 100,000 people). NYC is listed as 4 per 100,000.
Up till today, no one at the NYT Editorial Board, nor the anti-gun commenters here gave any thought to that high murder rate in San Bernardino.
If you didn't care about the 100's murdered there already, why do you suddenly care today? Don't all lives matter?
OR is it that only lives lost from a mass shooting matter?
Seems to me its very much the latter.
Up till today, no one at the NYT Editorial Board, nor the anti-gun commenters here gave any thought to that high murder rate in San Bernardino.
If you didn't care about the 100's murdered there already, why do you suddenly care today? Don't all lives matter?
OR is it that only lives lost from a mass shooting matter?
Seems to me its very much the latter.
2
The rest of the world looks at the endemic gun violence in the United States and shakes their collective heads in disbelief. How could it be that the citizens and government of one country are so alone in their insistence on owning, carrying and using guns, even semi-automatic assault rifles, with impunity? What is it about our culture that numbs us to the horror that we are killing ourselves more thoughtlessly than any enemy on our list of global terrorists? And it isn't just adults killing adults; it is also children killing children as we saw in October when an 11 year-old boy in Tennessee shot and killed an 8 year-old girl after an argument. What will it take for us to wake up to the nightmare we are living here in the United States?
So many gun owners seem to believe that the only way to keep from being killed is to kill first, and that means having more and more guns of the deadliest type, and being ready to use them with no questions asked. Shoot first, ask later...or not at all.
We are so quick to argue about gun control or no gun control, but the real question is what kind of world do we want to live in? And what kind of world do we want for our children and grandchildren? Can we not do better than this?
So many gun owners seem to believe that the only way to keep from being killed is to kill first, and that means having more and more guns of the deadliest type, and being ready to use them with no questions asked. Shoot first, ask later...or not at all.
We are so quick to argue about gun control or no gun control, but the real question is what kind of world do we want to live in? And what kind of world do we want for our children and grandchildren? Can we not do better than this?
6
Many of these shooters are not mentally ill in any psychiatric sense. They're just filled with rage—because they've lost a job, had their family life go wrong, been laughed at in school, or some other factor related to feeling that they have been mistreated by others. Changing gun laws so that these people can't buy assault weapons easily would only be one step in the right direction.
2
Fact - not doing anything will not change anything. I have had it with those who argue that any gun law must solve every gun issue to be considered. But gun controls save lives - fact. That's why guns are not allowed in the state legislatures where the cowards who vote to allow easy access to guns elsewhere work. But gun restrictions have worked EVERYWHERE they have been tried - see Australia. In this instance more than any other, if you are not part of the solution, you are actively part of the problem.
4
What evidence does the NY Times offer that any proposed gun control measure will reduce violence in America. Zero. This editorial offers absolutely no evidence that any proposed gun control measure will reduce violence. That is because no evidence exists. The only gun control measure for which any evidence exists that it might plausibly reduce violence would be outlawing private ownership of firearms along with a mass confiscation of all firearms. However, no one is proposing this. So yes, we should take other measures that offer hope of reducing violence, including improvements to mental health systems and a better armed populace who can defend themselves.
2
The evidence is in on the effectiveness of countywide gun control: it works. Australia's gun control program dramatically reduced gun violence and mass shootings. It was even instituted by the conservative party in power. The difference was that Australians said ENOUGH! No sense in denying the evidence; it is right there for all to see. Data trumps ideology, unless people refuse to open their eyes or minds
It's been 20 years without a mass murder in Australia since they enacted strict gun controls.
Of course it's a gun problem. There is a mental health component in some cases as well. And, there's a media problem, in that rightwing media stirs up the conspiracy theorists who amass guns. So, in addition to universal background checks, and ensuring that all guns sold are smart guns using fingerprint technology, we need a ban on assault weapons in every single state, sharing of mental health records and criminal records with gun sellers (and if the gun sellers fail to examine those records, they lose their license to sell guns, no exceptions), a ban on excessive magazine clips, and highly regulating gun shows. And, anyone who wants a gun should have to go thru gun training prior to receiving the gun. Moreover, every gun owner should be forced to buy gun insurance, upon purchase, for liability in the event of injury, death and/or felony usage (such as but not limited to armed robbery), or use resulting in death or injury (or a felony) by a different party, i.e. not the gun owner, except in the event that the gun owner timely (within 5 days) reports the gun stolen or missing. Will this stop mass shootings? No, but it might stop some. And it might stop toddlers from getting shot or killing with Daddy's or Mommy's loaded gun. And it might have stopped a Jared Loughner. Or a Dylan Roof. Maybe even James Holmes. And isn't that enough? Because the right to bear arms stops at the edge of my right to not get shot.
6
@marawa5986
THIS!:
"Because the right to bear arms stops at the edge of my right to not get shot."
Thanks for saying it.
THIS!:
"Because the right to bear arms stops at the edge of my right to not get shot."
Thanks for saying it.
Well, all those Black Friday sales when through the national background check system, didn't they? Why is the Times complaining?
Meanwhile, we are all wondering who the San Bernadino shooters were today and their motives. If they were run of the mill domestic shooters, perhaps tighter gun control would actually help, if it is carefully drafted to screen malcontents and others who by law, should not have guns. If they were terrorists, either domestic or imports, what controls would help? France, with some of the strictest laws, was powerless to keep dedicated terrorists from obtaining "assault weapons" on the black market and creating mass carnage.
So as soon as we find out what happened and why, we really should plot a path forward based on data, and not take the same old path of do-nothing because we can't agree on the shape of the table.
I went through New York State's daunting Sullivan Law hoops to obtain a pistol permit back in the seventies. I was not adverse to jumping through those hoops because in return, I knew Monroe County was a "shall issue" county that was fair to me after I was fair with the county in honestly filling out forms and obtaining character references. If we could have a social contract for better screening of gun owners and limits on the kind of controls that would be imposed on law abiding citizens, maybe we could get somewhere. If we could lessen these horrible events, I think both gun owners and controllers could declare success.
Meanwhile, we are all wondering who the San Bernadino shooters were today and their motives. If they were run of the mill domestic shooters, perhaps tighter gun control would actually help, if it is carefully drafted to screen malcontents and others who by law, should not have guns. If they were terrorists, either domestic or imports, what controls would help? France, with some of the strictest laws, was powerless to keep dedicated terrorists from obtaining "assault weapons" on the black market and creating mass carnage.
So as soon as we find out what happened and why, we really should plot a path forward based on data, and not take the same old path of do-nothing because we can't agree on the shape of the table.
I went through New York State's daunting Sullivan Law hoops to obtain a pistol permit back in the seventies. I was not adverse to jumping through those hoops because in return, I knew Monroe County was a "shall issue" county that was fair to me after I was fair with the county in honestly filling out forms and obtaining character references. If we could have a social contract for better screening of gun owners and limits on the kind of controls that would be imposed on law abiding citizens, maybe we could get somewhere. If we could lessen these horrible events, I think both gun owners and controllers could declare success.
3
This is the price the NRA and the politicians in its pay are willing to have innocent citizens pay to protect their right to bear arms, and to raise campaign funds. Despicable.
2
As long as we are supposed to be addressing the mental health side of things, can we start talking about the organized retreat from reality that is the Republican Party these days? There is no problem for which they do not have an answer that is simple, provides a scapegoat - and is wrong. Even if it's nothing more than denial.
Can we talk about the way conservative talk radio and FOX News spews a constant stream of misinformation and outright lies to drive wedges between us all?
I'm not saying the Republican Party is the cause of everything afflicting us in America - but there seems to be little they don't make worse.
Can we talk about the way conservative talk radio and FOX News spews a constant stream of misinformation and outright lies to drive wedges between us all?
I'm not saying the Republican Party is the cause of everything afflicting us in America - but there seems to be little they don't make worse.
3
The more guns, the more shootings. Simple. Tomorrow, and next week, and all the weeks of our lives, and our children's lives, mass shootings will be occurring, not just every week, but every hour. The nation will stop grieving and consolation will disappear from our vocabularies. We have lost all control. Murder wins. Lethal weapons are sold by the hundreds daily. We have been told to wage war on ourselves, "there is no other way."
Simple.
Simple.
1
Perhaps we should learn the details and motivation of the shooting prior to politicizing the tragedy to push our gun control agenda?
Or do we have a knee jerk response in the gun control world?
Or do we have a knee jerk response in the gun control world?
2
After Newtown, I've lost hope in chances for any meaning reform. If the massacre of 20 cherub-cheeked 7 year olds in an affluent white suburb didn't do it, it seems that nothing well.
6
Clearly, we are less safe as a society because of the widespread availability of guns. However, we are only marginally less safe (and, non gun-owners face virtually no risk whatsoever*). As a liberal with many important items on the agenda, I say it is not smart to give up political power by losing elections fighting for gun control.
* LA Times 11/20/2014 "People who have ready access to a firearm are almost twice as likely to be killed and three times likelier to commit suicide than those without a gun available in the home ... a new study has concluded."
* LA Times 11/20/2014 "People who have ready access to a firearm are almost twice as likely to be killed and three times likelier to commit suicide than those without a gun available in the home ... a new study has concluded."
1
I'm afraid everyone here is very confused. Until someone who has influence on guns - the types available for purchase, background checks, magazine limits, etc loses a family, not a family member, but a family in one of these attacks, or until someone steps into a conservative convention and mass murders guns rights advocates, there will be absolutely no movement on this. Until someone has the political fortitude to point to a gun supporter by name, and say that person will be responsible for the next mass murder if they do not take action, then nothing will change. There is no doubt that mass murders will continue or that they will be more frequent. The only question will be the response.
Assuming it was purchased legally, what "sensible gun control" would have stopped this man from obtaining the weapon?
And if it was obtained illegally, well, I guess the law didn't slow him down much.
And if it was obtained illegally, well, I guess the law didn't slow him down much.
2
Why does the law allow anyone in a civilian capacity to own a military style rifle? If you demand that kind of weapon, why do I not have a right to a .50 caliber machine gun to protect myself from you? Why does my neighbor not have the right to a howitzer? Why can't the guy down the block own a tank? Where does the madness end?
No civilian "NEEDS" a military style weapon.
No civilian "NEEDS" a military style weapon.
1
California has most of the "common sense gun laws" promoted by Obama and others already on the books. It did not stop this tragedy. Murder is illegal, yet, people still murder. Laws will never prevent evil acts by evil people.
Any who disagree with the disarming of law-abiding citizens (because criminals will always be able to get a weapon if they choose) are automatically treated as if they are the evil ones, instead of the true evil ones, those who murder and maim.
It is sad how illogical our country has become. Disarming the innocent, making them victims to the criminal element, is nothing more than an emotional response. Even all guns suddenly disappeared, all that would do is make the weak the victims of the strong.
It is also selfish to demand more laws, only restricting those who obey the law. Many calculate that they may live their entire lives without needing a firearm to protect themselves from violence. What about everyone else? Basically, it's "That only happens to other people". They're playing the odds. "Someone else will be the defenseless victim, while I am the principled progressive".
I am lucky to live where violent crime is rare, and don't feel the need to own a firearm, but I will never deny that right to someone who does feel that need, unless they have forfeited that right by their own acts, or are mentally incompetent.
I am done here. My thoughts are now with the victims and their families, innocents who crossed the path of evil people.
Any who disagree with the disarming of law-abiding citizens (because criminals will always be able to get a weapon if they choose) are automatically treated as if they are the evil ones, instead of the true evil ones, those who murder and maim.
It is sad how illogical our country has become. Disarming the innocent, making them victims to the criminal element, is nothing more than an emotional response. Even all guns suddenly disappeared, all that would do is make the weak the victims of the strong.
It is also selfish to demand more laws, only restricting those who obey the law. Many calculate that they may live their entire lives without needing a firearm to protect themselves from violence. What about everyone else? Basically, it's "That only happens to other people". They're playing the odds. "Someone else will be the defenseless victim, while I am the principled progressive".
I am lucky to live where violent crime is rare, and don't feel the need to own a firearm, but I will never deny that right to someone who does feel that need, unless they have forfeited that right by their own acts, or are mentally incompetent.
I am done here. My thoughts are now with the victims and their families, innocents who crossed the path of evil people.
1
No, Congressman Murphy, let's not "respond to the crime." Let's chase the complex and unknowable causes of mental illness. Those incapacitated by an inability to process what most "normal" individuals can negotiate do not fit the homicidal profile of a mass-murderer. We're talking about planned, deliberate murder on a major scale, a slaughter designed to take as many lives on the instant. Mentally-challenged persons aren't very likely to connect the dots from matrix to mayhem. Your sainted Wayne LaPierre holds the whip hand on Capitol Hill where legislators would rather slap their mothers than stand in defiance of the holy NRA. This thoroughly unrepentant organization is less much less concerned with responsible gun ownership than it is about public safety. Congressman Murphy, by all means place the blame where it does not belong: on those who are far less likely to wreak havoc on civilization with lethal intent. Do not challenge the gun/rifle culture that has done more to ruin American citizens and their families than all the nation's war's put together.
2
"...Multiple sources from multiple agencies identified one of the three attackers at the resource center to NBC News as Syed Farook. A person named Syed Farook is listed in public records as a resident of the Redlands address from which police tracked the SUV involved in the shootout...."
"...David Bowdich, the FBI's assistant director in Los Angeles, said the incident was being regarded as "possibly terrorism." He wouldn't elaborate."
As more information is uncovered about the identity, background and motives of the mass murderers, the Editorial Board may wish to reconsider its recommendations.
"...David Bowdich, the FBI's assistant director in Los Angeles, said the incident was being regarded as "possibly terrorism." He wouldn't elaborate."
As more information is uncovered about the identity, background and motives of the mass murderers, the Editorial Board may wish to reconsider its recommendations.
Don't pray for the victims of the San Bernadino massacre.
Prayers are an insult to the deceased.
If anyone had actually cared about them or any other humanity in these United States, they would've given them gun control a long time ago.
Instead they were given a national shooting gallery and gun anarchy, a Yemeni-like gun culture where every angry male (and occasional female) can take out their psychotic break on every random American.
Who will be tomorrow's 85 Americans be that are killed by a gun ?
Classrooms of dead children...rooms of dead disabled...theaters of dead people...that is the culture of death brought to us by a small group of very profitable gun and bullets manufacturers and their NRA-GOP front men squawking about 'free-dumb'.
At its root cause, 'gun freedom' is really about the freedom of a handful of merchants of death to profit off of the paranoia of America's gun psychotics and the those they massacre.
Do us a favor, foreign countries, start boycotting America until it becomes a civilized nation.
Maybe our deranged politicians will get the message about gun control if the rest of the world boycotts America for its appalling human rights record in letting thousands of innocents be routinely slaughtered while Congress stands by and does absolutely nothing in the face of daily gun massacre after daily gun massacre.
Boycott America, United Nations and free world, until America's NRA human rights violations are stopped.
Prayers are an insult to the deceased.
If anyone had actually cared about them or any other humanity in these United States, they would've given them gun control a long time ago.
Instead they were given a national shooting gallery and gun anarchy, a Yemeni-like gun culture where every angry male (and occasional female) can take out their psychotic break on every random American.
Who will be tomorrow's 85 Americans be that are killed by a gun ?
Classrooms of dead children...rooms of dead disabled...theaters of dead people...that is the culture of death brought to us by a small group of very profitable gun and bullets manufacturers and their NRA-GOP front men squawking about 'free-dumb'.
At its root cause, 'gun freedom' is really about the freedom of a handful of merchants of death to profit off of the paranoia of America's gun psychotics and the those they massacre.
Do us a favor, foreign countries, start boycotting America until it becomes a civilized nation.
Maybe our deranged politicians will get the message about gun control if the rest of the world boycotts America for its appalling human rights record in letting thousands of innocents be routinely slaughtered while Congress stands by and does absolutely nothing in the face of daily gun massacre after daily gun massacre.
Boycott America, United Nations and free world, until America's NRA human rights violations are stopped.
42
With the numbers adding up with the likes of all of our own massacres, seems like even Paris is a safer place. Thanks NRA and to those who cower to its power. Thanks for the insanity, and nothing else.
6
Who is on the board of the NRA? What are their home addresses? Citizens should stand vigil outside their homes - and the homes of their children, paretns, siblings, colleagues, etc. It's time to shame these enablers of horror.
Let's Westboro them.
Let's Westboro them.
9
This is NOT the time for the NYT or Obama to lecture anyone about gun control. This is time for you to ask about Homeland Security and our preparation against Paris-style terrorism. Fourteen people died, 17 injured, a nation in shock because of this terrorist act. NYT and Obama's response? Lecture and finger-wagging.
5
Tony... your response? Sounds like lecture and finger wagging to me. Do you think Homeland Security is doing nothing in preparation for Paris-style terrorism? What would you do with the shooter in this case - born in the U.S.A., no criminal record, well-employed, etc. I agree that it is past time for action on gun control in your firerams-happy nation.
"Are these atrocities truly beyond the power of government and its politicians to stop?"
The simple answer is: Yes. The NRA's highjacking of the 2nd Amendment assures this. As long as the NRA is in control of our politicians, these atrocities will continue, week after week, year after year. It will never end.
America has two choices:
1. Go to the polls and elect representatives who will stand up to the NRA.
2. Get used to it and stop whining.
The simple answer is: Yes. The NRA's highjacking of the 2nd Amendment assures this. As long as the NRA is in control of our politicians, these atrocities will continue, week after week, year after year. It will never end.
America has two choices:
1. Go to the polls and elect representatives who will stand up to the NRA.
2. Get used to it and stop whining.
3
NYT editorial
"Yet, even as grief fills communities randomly victimized by mass shootings, the sales of weapons grow ever higher. Holiday shoppers set a record for Black Friday gun sales last week. They left the Federal Bureau of Investigation processing 185,345 firearm background checks, the most ever in a single day, topping the Black Friday gun buying binge after the shooting massacre of 26 people at a school in Newtown, Conn., three years ago."
Perpetual vicious insanity feeds it self.
"Yet, even as grief fills communities randomly victimized by mass shootings, the sales of weapons grow ever higher. Holiday shoppers set a record for Black Friday gun sales last week. They left the Federal Bureau of Investigation processing 185,345 firearm background checks, the most ever in a single day, topping the Black Friday gun buying binge after the shooting massacre of 26 people at a school in Newtown, Conn., three years ago."
Perpetual vicious insanity feeds it self.
1
In the blog posts for this editorial, you can almost hear the gnashing of teeth as people react to the horrific massacre that occurred on yesterday in San Bernardino, California. I suggest the roots of this massacre, and the past mass slaughters and home-grown acts of terrorism, can be found in our elections and the rulings of contemporary Supreme Court of the United States.
Although I haven’t run the numbers, I hypothesize that there is a high correlation between the rise in the Republican-controlled state assemblies and the increase in the gun-facilitated massacres of Americans.
The point is that all elections are critical ones – local, state, federal and off-year elections – and we are destined for another democracy-endangering election in 2016. If you wish to end these horrific gun-enabled massacres, then vote wisely in 2016.
Although I haven’t run the numbers, I hypothesize that there is a high correlation between the rise in the Republican-controlled state assemblies and the increase in the gun-facilitated massacres of Americans.
The point is that all elections are critical ones – local, state, federal and off-year elections – and we are destined for another democracy-endangering election in 2016. If you wish to end these horrific gun-enabled massacres, then vote wisely in 2016.
6
Let's simply have a National Gun Rampage Day. On this day, anyone and everyone can publicly carry their entire arsenal in public. Hallmark & others can print tasteful Gun Rampage greeting cards - "Did you dodge your bullet today?" "Here's a bullet with your name on it. Keep it safely away from the guns". The economy can get a boost from the sale of flowers, candles and wreaths used for the little memorials that get set up. School children can recite the oath of allegiance to the Second Amendment. Low income people can get a government subsidy for guns and ammunition purchased on this day. We can rate and honor the cities and towns on which of them gave up the most lives in the name of the Second Amendment.
13
The real mental health issue is that of the GOP lawmakers who continue to support nearly unfettered access to guns. The blood of all these victims are on their hands. Sure, Pandora's box is open and there are millions of guns already in the hands of American's, but to make no attempt to slow the slaughter is a show of unfettered cowardice by Republican lawmakers.
28
Clyde,
Rather than spouting the standard rhetoric, what specific gun law would you have lawmakers put in place that you believe could have prevented the San Bernardino shooting?
Rather than spouting the standard rhetoric, what specific gun law would you have lawmakers put in place that you believe could have prevented the San Bernardino shooting?
Move along, move along, just another routine mass shooting, why should anything change? Let's face it, if God didn't want us to have guns, He wouldn't have let them be invented; and if He didn't want people to be injured by gunfire, He would have made people bullet-proof. And if He wanted us to be sensible, He wouldn't have made us stupid.
31
You mean "She", don't you?
Congress didn't do anything when Gabby Giffords was shot. Nothing was done after Newtown. Nothing will be done after this except for the usual lines from the usual suspects. Obama cannot change attitudes in America. He cannot forbid gun ownership. Our Congress, on both sides of the canyon, refuses to do anything that might irritate the NRA. However, as with other issues, many Americans, even those who own guns, favor gun control laws. It's the NRA and other paranoid individuals who are running the show because they have the most money or the loudest voices. The same goes for many other things in this country.
It is a mental health issue but not the way the GOP is characterizing it. When we have to worry that any gathering can be a target for someone who is disaffected and wants to use a gun, especially one designed to rip people to shreds, to express his unhappiness, we become frightened. It stops free speech in its tracks if we have to worry that our opinions will attract someone who feels that he must do his duty to his beliefs by killing the opposition. What I'd like to know is when the GOP abdicated responsibility for its role in keeping the conversations civil in America. And when it become respectable to advocate shooting those who disagree with others on any issue?
It is a mental health issue but not the way the GOP is characterizing it. When we have to worry that any gathering can be a target for someone who is disaffected and wants to use a gun, especially one designed to rip people to shreds, to express his unhappiness, we become frightened. It stops free speech in its tracks if we have to worry that our opinions will attract someone who feels that he must do his duty to his beliefs by killing the opposition. What I'd like to know is when the GOP abdicated responsibility for its role in keeping the conversations civil in America. And when it become respectable to advocate shooting those who disagree with others on any issue?
33
What if this repeated mayhem starts scaring away investors from investing in the US? How will the Republican lawmakers respond when investment starts bypassing or leaving (fleeing) their districts?
All the talk about 2nd amendment/anti-tyranny is just a cynical marketing ploy by the gun sellers and their lobbyists to sell more guns.
All the talk about 2nd amendment/anti-tyranny is just a cynical marketing ploy by the gun sellers and their lobbyists to sell more guns.
18
False Alarms About a National Crime Wave
By THE EDITORIAL BOARDNOV. 27, 2015
No murders are acceptable, but the Times said this week, "What, me worry?"
Gun control is fine but limited.
Stricter law enforcement, and support for the pokice, is crucial.
By THE EDITORIAL BOARDNOV. 27, 2015
No murders are acceptable, but the Times said this week, "What, me worry?"
Gun control is fine but limited.
Stricter law enforcement, and support for the pokice, is crucial.
6
Talking about mental health issues in relation to mass murder is an evasion of responsibility. Cloaking oneself in a misreading of an 18th century document is farcical. Americans continue to embarrass themselves to the world because they refuse to believe that easy access to guns creates more murder and more mayhem.
40
This will not be published I'm sure ... but i think the underlying psychological temperament of any gun owner is insecurity, and a desire to feel secure. Well guess what, rampant gun ownership has opened the doorway to feast in an arena where these temperaments, when pushed to an extreme, can be triggered. Violent, panicked, and fearful. Innocents are harmed. The NRA and gun manufacturers have gotten your number (which is essentially human) and are making huge profits playing your human frailty. And they are certainly not sweating the blood and humanity lost.
102
You're preaching to the choir, so of course it gets published. I've submitted 7 or 8 comments on this and related articles today, all responsible, on topic and not abusive, but run counter to the NYT's bias and agenda, none of which have been posted. Hey, it's their paper.
Totally agree. The NRA base is white, angry, paranoid, fearful men. The NRA and the GOP fuels their fears and the NRA makes a fortune along with the gun manufacturers. Gun sales are up but I would bet these are purchases by gun owners are who stockpiling.
The fear and violence propelled by unchecked gun ownership creates a feedback loop-- fear > violence > more fear > more violence, etc. This is where the campaign finance system and American capitalism enter and propel the fear and gun violence to an ever higher pitch. As fear and violence escalates, so do profits for American gun manufacturers, the gun lobbyists in the NRA, and the political lobbyists who each take their percentage of the hundreds of millions of dollars funneled to politicians who support "gun rights." Without breaking that loop, there's no way out of the labyrinth of mass shootings and murders.
We still don't know the identity of those murderers and their motives but we can be very sure that no discussion on gun control will follow. No one will speak of any new laws, nobody will mention regulations, or even limiting access to assault rifles that were designed for modern battlefields rather than for our local neighborhood.
The military industrial complex and its loyalists, mostly of the Republican party, will guard profits but will do nothing to preserve lives. We go to wars to protect our citizens from our ever-changing enemies, we are indifferent to tens of thousands who are killed by our own people with our own manufactured weapons.
Long time ago a Republican president, Eisenhower warned us against the military industrial complex, the one who perpetuate the problem by prescribing - and selling - more guns as the solution to 'many guns'.
Eisenhower noted, the military industrial complex:.."total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government" and "..the potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist."
Regardless, we should not expect public discussion about guns, what we can expect are more mass shootings.
The military industrial complex and its loyalists, mostly of the Republican party, will guard profits but will do nothing to preserve lives. We go to wars to protect our citizens from our ever-changing enemies, we are indifferent to tens of thousands who are killed by our own people with our own manufactured weapons.
Long time ago a Republican president, Eisenhower warned us against the military industrial complex, the one who perpetuate the problem by prescribing - and selling - more guns as the solution to 'many guns'.
Eisenhower noted, the military industrial complex:.."total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government" and "..the potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist."
Regardless, we should not expect public discussion about guns, what we can expect are more mass shootings.
42
"We Still don't know the identity of these killers..." Have you tried reading the lead article today? The killers have been identified as a husband and wife team, one being an employee of the institute in which the killings occurred.
So let's say I follow the lead of Wayne LaPierre, and Trump, and Carson, and arm myself and carry my piece everywhere I go. What should I get - a Glock 9mm? That won't cut it against killers armed with assault rifles and vests. Which means I should take my Bushmaster to the movies, to church, and everywhere else I go? But wait...if others are doing likewise, how will I know who is carrying for self defense versus murder? And given the element of surprise, how do I stop someone from shooting me first? Keep the safety off and keep it pointed at everyone? Oh, just carrying is a deterrent? I see...none of these mass murderers ever plan on going out in a blaze of glory, nor do they ever shoot themselves. This is the fallacy of madness that the NRA and its bought off GOP has perpetrated on us; a vision of a full stage, combat level society. All for an amendment to the Constitution that - yes, you strict constructionist phonies - refers to a militia as the basis for the right to bear arms - which no one belongs to and no one needs given that our country now, unlike in the 1700's, has a police force and a national guard. Anyway, it's too late...hundreds of millions of guns are out there, waiting to be bought and sold and used.
138
Many of these shooters kill themselves, especially when confronted or challenged. I won't list them, I'm sure you're capable of looking them up if you care about the truth. Except when I must enter a gun free zone I usually have one and sometimes two handguns. Beginning today, a ballistic vest along with a rifle and multiple magazines will be in my trunk too.
The horror show began when the press started covering live events given by the likes of Trump, Cruz, Carson and individuals like them. They crave media coverage. Stop giving them a podium where HATE is the evening theme.
23
I refuse to even click on articles about Trump, Carson (or any of the others, really) any longer, and haven't for some time. By now, we all have come to know what to expect from them and it's not like improvement in their rhetoric or ideas are bound to change.
But! - clicks are what tell media outlets what people are interested in, the stories that drive advertising dollars. The fact that one clicks in order to laugh or be horrified at them matters not, it's the click itself that counts. So the more clicks, the more articles about these losers we can expect to see. If people stopped clicking on the articles about them, then they will garner less coverage, not as little as they deserve unfortunately, but...
But! - clicks are what tell media outlets what people are interested in, the stories that drive advertising dollars. The fact that one clicks in order to laugh or be horrified at them matters not, it's the click itself that counts. So the more clicks, the more articles about these losers we can expect to see. If people stopped clicking on the articles about them, then they will garner less coverage, not as little as they deserve unfortunately, but...
This is squarely on the hands of the gun lobby. Shame on them! There is no sane reason for the ease with which guns are available in this country.
45
And the GOP who cash the checks they get for their campaigns from the NRA. Follow the money.
The gun lobby....Now that is a real stretch....What about the fanatic Muslims that want to force each of us into the Sharia law state....OrKillYou? Are you ready?
Right. The gun lobby forced a Muslim extremist to visit Saudi Arabia, become radicalized, radicalize his wife, purchase guns, plan an attack on his employer, and then shoot up a company Christmas party. And by the way, how do you propose to confiscate the guns currently in the hands of American citizens? Lots of Americans own automatic weapons. How will you take them away? Home invasion? Search and seizure of private property? Rescinding the 2nd amendment by another Obama executive order?
Why blame the political establishment and the NRA? There are 2nd Amendment fundamentalists galore in this nation. The confluence of blind worship of the 2nd Amendment and the rise of right wing anti-government, anti-liberal value, (mostly white) militia might have led to both the Colorado Springs shooting and the latest shooting at San Bernardino.
11
And they are reinforced BY the political establishment and the NRA, so by association those two groups can be blamed, but not exclusively, as you point out.
I agree to some extent, however, those that you mention at the end of your comment, make possible the power of those you mention at the beginning. Plenty of blame to go around, and plenty who have earned it.
Excuse me, but the shooters in San Bernadino do not fit the demographic you blame for this tragedy, not by a mile. They do fit another demographic, but that would be politically incorrect profiling. That's not to say their demographic had anything to do with this, we just don't know what really motivated them at this point. Perhaps we should wait to find out before going off half cocked, offering opinions as facts and prejudice as evidence.
As the likelihood of the motive being terrorism from the Middle East or inspired by the Middle East, can the New York Times please tell me how gun laws have anything to do with this? Why is the Times jumping on one of its' favorite pet issues without waiting for the facts? This editorial has the possiblity of looking very foolish as events unfold.
Let us all wait to see how the evidence plays out, as the supposition of Middle Eastern inspired terrorism could be wrong as well, although the evidence seems at this time to be pointing in that direction.
Let us all wait to see how the evidence plays out, as the supposition of Middle Eastern inspired terrorism could be wrong as well, although the evidence seems at this time to be pointing in that direction.
20
Because people on the terrorist watch list in the U.S., thanks to the Republicans, can buy any gun they want. Because there are no universal background checks. Because 40% of all gun owners in this country did not go through any background checks. Etc., etc., etc. Gun nuts don't care about carnage or common sense.
1
Well. to bring you up-to-date, it seems he was an employee there, and had been for over a year. He attended the holiday party they were throwing, there was something that upset him, he went home and armed himself to the teeth. Perhaps his religious sensitivities were insulted and he decided to help ISIS out with their agenda - maybe. But in either case he "went postal" just like so many other people do in this country every year. These are the people we need to worry about - those who are walking around with a huge chip on their shoulder - it doesn't matter if their names are Smith of al-Mizrawki.
Not to mention the plethora of disparate gun laws in the 50 states. The real issue is lack of any kind of uniformity of law; the shockingly rude divisiveness in the public discourse; and bloviating, dysfunctional politicians. But please, let the dust settle first; let the facts come out; let the families bury and mourn their dead. Let our public review be even keeled, sober, and dispassionate.
Take Chris Rock's recommendation. Let people keep their guns but put a $5,000 tax on each bullet sold.
35
Ah ! That's GENIUS. You get my Vote for your comment.
He gets my admiration.
I just went and read the complete thing. GENIUS and funny too.
But the reason we are here isn't.
I pity the poor innocents.
He gets my admiration.
I just went and read the complete thing. GENIUS and funny too.
But the reason we are here isn't.
I pity the poor innocents.
The headline says that this shooting "underlines" the need for sensible gun control.
Is there any evidence, any at all, that this shooting would have been prevented by "sensible" gun control? Is there anything suggesting that the shooters would be disqualified by some sort of background check?
Look at this point we know nothing about the shooters. Whether they obtained the guns legally or not. Whether the complied with California's already stringent gun control laws.
What this editorial actually underlines is the willingness of some gun control advocates to regurgitate vapid talking points without any knowledge of the underlying facts of the incident - to seize on every tragedy as a means to advance their agenda.
Is there any evidence, any at all, that this shooting would have been prevented by "sensible" gun control? Is there anything suggesting that the shooters would be disqualified by some sort of background check?
Look at this point we know nothing about the shooters. Whether they obtained the guns legally or not. Whether the complied with California's already stringent gun control laws.
What this editorial actually underlines is the willingness of some gun control advocates to regurgitate vapid talking points without any knowledge of the underlying facts of the incident - to seize on every tragedy as a means to advance their agenda.
17
Check the laws in Europe that concern guns. Then cross tab that with the number of gun related crimes. Then come back to class with your findings.
Not sure how this guy got his gun but, did you know that the people on the "no-fly" list, suspected TERRORISTS, can walk into a gun store and buy any and all weapons they can get their hands on!!! Their has been a bill to get these people banned from weapons purchases, but the Republicans (who are bought and paid for by the NRA) have blocked it. Up to 40% of gun sales are made without background checks - you don't need one at a gun show. These are loopholes that need to be CLOSED.
Ugh, yes, for the millionth time, there is ample, stark evidence. See: every other advanced nation in the world. How many times do we have to say this? And why do gun nuts always suggest we start at square one in "investigating" each new shooting when our daily mass shootings are part of a much larger, very obvious pattern? It doesn't matter what their motives were or how they got the weapons - no one ever should have those in the first place, because such weapons' only purpose is to kill people.
Why would any sane person focus on each incident as if they occurred in a unique vacuum when there is a very clear pattern? What would you do if your police department did that after a series of local murders? It's not that there are never going to be crazy people in the world, but we are unique in that we allow such crazy people (or people who maybe weren't crazy but then become so) to have easy access to military-grade weapons. It's not rocket science.
Why would any sane person focus on each incident as if they occurred in a unique vacuum when there is a very clear pattern? What would you do if your police department did that after a series of local murders? It's not that there are never going to be crazy people in the world, but we are unique in that we allow such crazy people (or people who maybe weren't crazy but then become so) to have easy access to military-grade weapons. It's not rocket science.
Isn't this editorial premature? We don't know anything about the killers or their motives. What if they are Jihadists who could have gotten the guns by any means?
16
Try reading the editorial again.
"Those who reject sensible gun controls will say anything to avoid implicating the growth in the civilian arsenal."
That's clear enough: suddenly the GOP cares about mental health.
In California, the Reagan-led GOP defunded mental health problems in the 1970s, and we're still living with the effects today. It's one of the major factors contributing to California's homelessness crisis.
In the same era, the California GOP decided it could support some gun control when the Black Panthers started carrying guns around in public. Discomfort with armed black men (who were never responsible for any massacre) led them to take action long before the thousands of wasted actual human lives will lead them to take action now. Maybe we need the Black Panthers to come back!
This all feels so hopeless, but so preventable. It's infuriating to watch the same thing happen over and over again, knowing that there are so many steps we could take, but won't, as long as the gun lobby holds sway.
It's past time to stop pretending that events like this aren't political, that it's bad taste to politicize them, or that policy doesn't change anything. The issue was already inherently political before the NRA made it a conservative litmus test. The gun lobby knows that gun controls would make a difference, and that bystanders with their own guns making a difference is a childish fantasy. They've made gun control an unresolvable wedge issue in the hopes that Americans will never figure that out.
That's clear enough: suddenly the GOP cares about mental health.
In California, the Reagan-led GOP defunded mental health problems in the 1970s, and we're still living with the effects today. It's one of the major factors contributing to California's homelessness crisis.
In the same era, the California GOP decided it could support some gun control when the Black Panthers started carrying guns around in public. Discomfort with armed black men (who were never responsible for any massacre) led them to take action long before the thousands of wasted actual human lives will lead them to take action now. Maybe we need the Black Panthers to come back!
This all feels so hopeless, but so preventable. It's infuriating to watch the same thing happen over and over again, knowing that there are so many steps we could take, but won't, as long as the gun lobby holds sway.
It's past time to stop pretending that events like this aren't political, that it's bad taste to politicize them, or that policy doesn't change anything. The issue was already inherently political before the NRA made it a conservative litmus test. The gun lobby knows that gun controls would make a difference, and that bystanders with their own guns making a difference is a childish fantasy. They've made gun control an unresolvable wedge issue in the hopes that Americans will never figure that out.
20
Stop the praying already! It is not doing anything but make those praying feel better.
Just as all other civilized countries have universal health care, they don't have the gun-saturated insanity that exists here.
It can be done, but perhaps this country is too far gone.
Just as all other civilized countries have universal health care, they don't have the gun-saturated insanity that exists here.
It can be done, but perhaps this country is too far gone.
36
Yes, Paris doesn't have the gun-saturated insanity...
What part of a "well regulated militia" do these killers and military weapons fall into? Have we all gone crazy?
26
The right of the people to keep and bear arms is so they can defend themselves against a tyrannical government.
The violence has indeed risen to the level of "this national catastrophe." What does one write? What does one ask beyond "What have we become? Who are we? What future are we concocting for our children?" Who's responsible? How can we stop the madness?
www.endthemadnessnow.org
www.endthemadnessnow.org
12
Yet. Another sad very bery sad event. Republicans lacks even basic common sense or may be its the corruption (yes lobby is fancy version of corruption) that is leading this country to the path of self destruction. I am extremely sad to see that politics in this country is so bad that even the basic basic logic and common sense is ignored.
16
As long as Congress remains complicit with the gun lobby/N.R.A. push for a non-restricted sale of guns, the U.S. will continue to see, and feel, the carnage as a result. Given the high-tech semi-automatic large-magazine weaponry so readily available, the 'wild west shoot first, ask questions later' is being emulated and multiplied 'at nauseum', in spite of the vast majority of the population favoring and even demanding better control. Why is it these congressmen/women, being so unrepresentative, are being reelected? Are we controlled by fear? Or so stupidly obstinate in affirming our 'rights' while damaging our neighbors'?
14
Nothing will change until we stop voting for Republicans.
33
Nothing will change until we vote out Democrats like Obama who refuse to tell the obvious: its not gun laws, its bad people.
No gun law will stop outlaws getting assault rifles. Our borders are
simple too porous and too many are already here.
Democrats and the like of the NYT are simply delusional top think
otherwise.
We have to realize that some ethnic and racial groups are prone to violence and mass murder, and keeps close watch on them.
Enough is enough.
Its time for the people saying the truth to speak up. The problem is not guns.
It is a culture of easy murder. We should not tolerate groups that tolerate mass murder. Its time to say the truth: these groups include Muslims and'
inner city Black drug-culture people. It is important that we single out the words "Muslim" and "Black" and say them.
No gun law will stop outlaws getting assault rifles. Our borders are
simple too porous and too many are already here.
Democrats and the like of the NYT are simply delusional top think
otherwise.
We have to realize that some ethnic and racial groups are prone to violence and mass murder, and keeps close watch on them.
Enough is enough.
Its time for the people saying the truth to speak up. The problem is not guns.
It is a culture of easy murder. We should not tolerate groups that tolerate mass murder. Its time to say the truth: these groups include Muslims and'
inner city Black drug-culture people. It is important that we single out the words "Muslim" and "Black" and say them.
Baloney. Name one thing this president has done. Try a better president, democrats.
I totally agree with the call for better mental health care from our House speaker Paul Ryan. He, and so many other gun advocates running for president, desperately need to have their head examined.
30
We say NO to some of the most desperate people on earth and on the other hand can't even stomach common sense gun laws. Just shows our hypocrisy and the degradation of our moral fiber. Our security policy is rooted in ignorance and we spare no oppurtunity to politicize security. It is sad what America has become.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-sues-feds-block-resettlement-6...
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-sues-feds-block-resettlement-6...
17
The metaphor is this: it's a virus. As a result from decades of easy access to weapons, these incidents are beyond a cure other than letting them die off eventually or finding a radical cure heretofore unknown. This is a shocking statement, I know. But wishing about more gun control and more mental health care is like treating a virus with an antibiotic. It feels like the right thing to do, but will have no impact whatsoever.
3
Problem - What problem. Another massacre. I'm sure the NRA will claim it never would have happened if every five year old and up in the country was concealed carrying.
11
Ah...Shame NYTimes editorial board on this editorial when the police and FBI investigation is only a few hours old. No one has all the facts yet. If this is terrorism, then the editorial should not be about gun control (I think terrorists hardly would care about any gun control law!).
I expect better from the NYTimes - you aren't CNN or a twitter feed!
I expect better from the NYTimes - you aren't CNN or a twitter feed!
13
Ummm no. The male I read is a US citizen. So even if terrorism it's still about access to high powered weapons. And even if this hadn't happened, see the other article that shows on average roughly a multiple murder a day. Are you so numb from this not to understand that this is completely unhinged? Our Democracy must respond.
Excuse me but I don't understand your point. Whether it's terrorism or simple anger management to get back at a work colleague, the fact remains that we all know this couple had a huge arsenal of guns, combined with explosive devices .
The cause is far less important than the means. Who cares about their anger or about their political ideology.? Where did they get all this material, ? Theyhad to buy it somewhere!
The New York Times has every right to speak out against the proliferation of weapons which are increasingly used for mass destruction in this country. Nothing the investigators find about the cause or motivation can mitigate the fact that these people were sitting on a quantity of arms sufficient to wage a mini war anywhere they felt like it.
The cause is far less important than the means. Who cares about their anger or about their political ideology.? Where did they get all this material, ? Theyhad to buy it somewhere!
The New York Times has every right to speak out against the proliferation of weapons which are increasingly used for mass destruction in this country. Nothing the investigators find about the cause or motivation can mitigate the fact that these people were sitting on a quantity of arms sufficient to wage a mini war anywhere they felt like it.
2
It is terrorism. All mass shootings are terrorism and should be treated as such no matter what the reason or the individuals involved. Maybe Homeland Security could make this a priority because with all of the gun violence our homeland ain't secure.
There is no hope of any gun control (or so many other necessary legislative actions) as long as the Republicans control the House of Representatives. They control it thanks to their perversion of our democracy through gerrymandered voting districts. Until that gerrymandering is reversed nothing will change.
Reversing that gerrymandering should be priority number one for the Democrats.
Reversing that gerrymandering should be priority number one for the Democrats.
10
Witnessing from abroad the continuous shootings happening in the US, I wonder how don't you Americans react to stop the selling of guns to individuals. According to some statistics there are more guns available in private hands than citizens capable of using them. My big question is, against who are you defending to? Against yourselves ? This is amazing and it's difficult to believe that even submachine guns are sold to private citizens. Unthinkable in my country and in the majority of the Western world.
The free access to guns is killing the soul of America, facing these massacres of children, adults and certainly innocent and good people year after year.
I feel very sorry for the victims, their families and for your country in this time of sorrow.
The free access to guns is killing the soul of America, facing these massacres of children, adults and certainly innocent and good people year after year.
I feel very sorry for the victims, their families and for your country in this time of sorrow.
20
Remember what Sean Connery said in the Untouchables movie?
"Bring a knife to a gun fight".
It should be apparent by now that the authorities, government, etc will not stop gunmen like this.
So regrettably, yes, nurses, teachers, and others should arm themselves.
In many places. these kind of atrocities stopped when the shooters knew that they would be fired back upon.
Welcome to reality in the USA.
I wished that we lived in a different society like Australia, or even Scotland, but we don't.
Make your choice; die and have your relatives and friends complain, or defend yourselves.
This will play into the hands of the NRA, but maybe you will be alive.
And probably when gunmen like this become wary about being fired back upon, then gun sales will go way down.
Perhaps this is the way to defeat the NRA; use their own rhetoric against them.
"Bring a knife to a gun fight".
It should be apparent by now that the authorities, government, etc will not stop gunmen like this.
So regrettably, yes, nurses, teachers, and others should arm themselves.
In many places. these kind of atrocities stopped when the shooters knew that they would be fired back upon.
Welcome to reality in the USA.
I wished that we lived in a different society like Australia, or even Scotland, but we don't.
Make your choice; die and have your relatives and friends complain, or defend yourselves.
This will play into the hands of the NRA, but maybe you will be alive.
And probably when gunmen like this become wary about being fired back upon, then gun sales will go way down.
Perhaps this is the way to defeat the NRA; use their own rhetoric against them.
1
Sad to say, Seamus, but most mass shooters expect to die which kind of removes the point of arming oneself against them.
No. That is not what a civilized society does. Americans do not want to turn all of America into a war zone. That is what the NRA wants.
Seamus, considering that the gun and ammo sales really began skyrocketing after the election of President Obama, the thing that's been driving it the most is unfounded fear and bigotry. I have heard and read so many comments since then as to what having a black president would mean, all so ridiculous in their ludicrous fears and very hate-filled as to not deserve repeating.
Black Friday 2012 occurred weeks before the December 2012 massacre at Sandy Hook. Of course there was a buying binge after the shooting but not due to deal-seekers on the day after Thanksgiving. Please correct this.
2
I'm sick and tired of nibbling around the edges of gun control. It is time for serious limits on the ownership of weaponry.
13
I'm a gun owner. I had to be interviewed by my local police, had a state police background check and then another by the FBI. I have a license and my two guns are locked in a safe, with the ammo stored separately. I have taken a number of safety and use classes.
But, so long as some people are out there intent on harming me or my family, I will always keep my guns.
By all means, take guns away from criminals, take them away from the mentally ill, take them away from those who have no license/permits. Further, go ahead and toss them all in jail for life.
But leave legal, law-abiding gun owners alone.
But, so long as some people are out there intent on harming me or my family, I will always keep my guns.
By all means, take guns away from criminals, take them away from the mentally ill, take them away from those who have no license/permits. Further, go ahead and toss them all in jail for life.
But leave legal, law-abiding gun owners alone.
11
40% of gun owners went through no background checks. Thanks to all the Republican loopholes as at gun shows, universal background checks are not the norm. Thank you for being a responsible gun owner, but please support universal background checks and closing loopholes, including the one that lets people on the terrorist watch list buy guns.
Fine, you fight to keep your guns and I'll be on the other side fighting to restrict gun ownership because I do NOT believe, I have NEVER believed, that the 2nd Amendment entitles people to have unhindered access to guns. You're not part of The New Jersey Militia, are you? In that case I would have a different opinion.
2
This comment makes no sense. It is, in fact, an exemplary example of the kind of muddled, emotional "logic" behind the American love affair with deadly weaponry.
Who exactly are these "people are out there intent on harming me or my family"? If they are criminals who plan on breaking into your house or mug you in your driveway, your locked-up guns with the ammo kept separately (as it should be) will be of exactly zero use. If they are terrorists, or mass murderers, you have the same issue. Or are they the government coming to carry you off in black helicopters?
Without being able to identify what the threat, perceived or real, actually is, your faith in the guns' ability to protect you is magical thinking.
Listen, if you are worried about crime, you'd be far, far better off with a good home security system and/or a well-trained dog. If you are worried about terrorism or a nut shooting into a crowd, the fact is that there is not much that you, as an individual, can do other than to carry on with some courage. And as for fears of government black-booted thugs, etc., I guess the solution would be to see a psychiatrist.
In any event, use the guns, if you must, for hunting or shooting at a range. But for personal protection they are worse than useless. You are more likely to shoot a loved one by mistake than kill some bad guy coming after you. Your guns are a mark of insecurity, not of strength.
Who exactly are these "people are out there intent on harming me or my family"? If they are criminals who plan on breaking into your house or mug you in your driveway, your locked-up guns with the ammo kept separately (as it should be) will be of exactly zero use. If they are terrorists, or mass murderers, you have the same issue. Or are they the government coming to carry you off in black helicopters?
Without being able to identify what the threat, perceived or real, actually is, your faith in the guns' ability to protect you is magical thinking.
Listen, if you are worried about crime, you'd be far, far better off with a good home security system and/or a well-trained dog. If you are worried about terrorism or a nut shooting into a crowd, the fact is that there is not much that you, as an individual, can do other than to carry on with some courage. And as for fears of government black-booted thugs, etc., I guess the solution would be to see a psychiatrist.
In any event, use the guns, if you must, for hunting or shooting at a range. But for personal protection they are worse than useless. You are more likely to shoot a loved one by mistake than kill some bad guy coming after you. Your guns are a mark of insecurity, not of strength.
The John Roberts Supreme Court conveniently ignored the qualifying phrase, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," when they ruled that the people's right to bear Arms means that an individual has that right under the Second Amendment. Nowhere in the Second Amendment does it say that an individual has the right to bear arms.
Guns in this country are not well regulated, particularly assault weapons. I support the long expired assault weapons ban.
Guns in this country are not well regulated, particularly assault weapons. I support the long expired assault weapons ban.
18
Second Amendment granted individual rights to bear arms are more clear than either the 'right to privacy' and the 'right to abortion' built on a contorted reading of the 9th Amendment, or the 'right' of the Federal government to regulate purely intrastate activities built on the widest possible reading of the Commerce Clause. The right way to go after guns is through a Constitutional Amendment - and good luck on that one.
The Republican party, and their masters the NRA, have gutted gun laws for years and the result has been an unending stream of killing sprees.
Mental health? Every proposal "shot down". The only people who can solve this are the members of the Republican party. They are responsible for their decades of intransigence and pandering for even more guns in the hands of anyone with the money to pay.
Conservatism has become the death dealer of America. Eternally fostering a fear of government to justify armaments that take the lives of the most innocent.
Enough.
Mental health? Every proposal "shot down". The only people who can solve this are the members of the Republican party. They are responsible for their decades of intransigence and pandering for even more guns in the hands of anyone with the money to pay.
Conservatism has become the death dealer of America. Eternally fostering a fear of government to justify armaments that take the lives of the most innocent.
Enough.
18
The desire to own automatic weapons that can kill sixty people in sixty seconds isn't a right, it's a disease.
27
So the nation is "trying to come to grips" with the planned parenthood shooting? Who is? Other than a few talking heads on tv, no one really cares. I had forgotten about it, and will forget about this latest one within a day or so as will most others. Perhaps we're part of the problem, but people have busy lives and have more immediate concerns. Don't sensationalize to sell papers.
3
Well, what you say is actually very true. In a couple of days, it will be gone from our minds. That seems to be the way it has been going here in the great USA. Then we all go back to doing our daily living and rushing here and there, without worry that this will or can happen to one of us. But that's the whole point, sooner or later, it seems, it will happen to one of us or someone we love and or care about.
We are the problem because we do not demand that the gun lobby, the NRA and the gun toting Republicans take responsibility for these actions.
We are the problem because we do not demand that the gun lobby, the NRA and the gun toting Republicans take responsibility for these actions.
What do you mean "no one really cares"? I live 10,000 miles South of these latest KILLINGS and I am one of millions and millions of people who care.
Is it hard to breathe with your head in the sand?
We don't know what happened here. We do know that an attack, which if it turns out to be politically motivated is a terrorist attack, happened. We don't know where the guns came from. We need to. We need to find out, focus on that, and use that to convince congress to act.
There is a segment of America that is so scarred, they support the high school bully as their candidate for president. These people are so scared, they won't let a brown skinned refugee in, even if she is an orphan child.
This is another thing to be scared of. Let's use it, and do our best to close one loophole, one path for guns to get in the hand of those who would use them. I don't know what else to do.
There is a segment of America that is so scarred, they support the high school bully as their candidate for president. These people are so scared, they won't let a brown skinned refugee in, even if she is an orphan child.
This is another thing to be scared of. Let's use it, and do our best to close one loophole, one path for guns to get in the hand of those who would use them. I don't know what else to do.
3
This is the type of article that drives me crazy. This is why I have cancelled my subscription to the NY Times. First, no amount of gun control has proven to remotely stop violent crime. Second, our RIGHT to keep and bear arms is what protects all of our other rights. Liberals in this country somehow forget that. They, and by they I mean about 99.9% of NY Times writers and subscribers, want the government to run our lives. We can all agree that we need to prevent senseless tragedies like this, but we do not have a gun problem, we have a moral problem. We have lost our sense of right and wrong. Whether it is religion or just the realization that we must value human life and stop allowing everyone to "express themselves." Being trashy, godless, immoral, entitled, narcissistic demigods is what has driven us to this point.
9
I'd argue that being godless would mitigate much of the violence.
You are one of the narcissistic demigods and you don't even know it!
Are you the one to tell us what a trashy, godless, immoral and entitled person is?
I don't think so.
Are you the one to tell us what a trashy, godless, immoral and entitled person is?
I don't think so.
If you are being driven crazy maybe you should have a family member put your guns in a safe place. For your safety as well as everyone else's.
Mental health services, while important and shamefully inadequate in this country, are not the answer. For one thing, the seriously mentally ill such as the shooter in Aurora, CO, are often receiving such services, but act anyway. Paranoid schizophrenics (one of the subsets most likely to lash out violently) can be difficult to treat because their paranoia makes them distrustful of professionals; often they come to believe that the medicines are poisoning them and stop taking them.
Another issue is that many of the folks doing the shooting have been seen as eccentric and odd and loners before the shooting, but not diagnosed as mentally ill. Those who come in contact with them may have believe that they "could use some help." Still, until they act out violently, nothing ever rose to the level where someone could force them into treatment. Forcing someone into treatment is of limited use at any rate since we do not generally involuntarily lock folks up permanently. Add to that the fact that many of the medications used in psychiatry have unpleasant side-effects. Many who are not highly motivated and/or do not think that they have a problem or need treatment will stop taking their meds in short order.
Mental health care needs to be improved, but likely would have minimal effect on reducing gun violence. We must make guns much harder to get and to keep.
Another issue is that many of the folks doing the shooting have been seen as eccentric and odd and loners before the shooting, but not diagnosed as mentally ill. Those who come in contact with them may have believe that they "could use some help." Still, until they act out violently, nothing ever rose to the level where someone could force them into treatment. Forcing someone into treatment is of limited use at any rate since we do not generally involuntarily lock folks up permanently. Add to that the fact that many of the medications used in psychiatry have unpleasant side-effects. Many who are not highly motivated and/or do not think that they have a problem or need treatment will stop taking their meds in short order.
Mental health care needs to be improved, but likely would have minimal effect on reducing gun violence. We must make guns much harder to get and to keep.
35
Anne-Marie - exactly what drug is it that you would prescribe to cure radical Islam in your quest for a solution? What gun laws laws would it be that radical Muslims would respect?
Please, use your God given instinct of self preservation at some point and recognize that these people along with their ISIS cohorts simpl,y need to be eradicated.
Please, use your God given instinct of self preservation at some point and recognize that these people along with their ISIS cohorts simpl,y need to be eradicated.
What I see in online comments in local Maine newspapers after every discussion of gun-related deaths:
1) the word "only" used with the number of victims (per incident, per year, per decade, per type of attack);
2) the words "Second Amendment," which would be carved in stone if there were a way to do that online;
3) the notion that any description of the carnage is a ploy by "liberal media" to support an anti-gun agenda;
4) the rock-solid belief that if only a Good Guy With a Gun had been present the shooter(s) would have been killed instantly if not sooner;
5) and, to my astonishment, a comment or two denying that the incident occurred at all.
Yes, there are several denial websites now. They purport to offer evidence that no massacres ever occur. They post photos of relatives in shock to argue that they don't appear sad enough, and photos of responders standing by to claim that if a shooting had *really* been happening everyone would have been racing around. They pose mannequins to support their claim that only a phony body could be twisted into the position of the corpses shown in news photos.
I wish a reporter would infiltrate the weapons manufacturers and show how they create the propaganda that filters inexorably into the smallest American communities. They're both talented and evil.
1) the word "only" used with the number of victims (per incident, per year, per decade, per type of attack);
2) the words "Second Amendment," which would be carved in stone if there were a way to do that online;
3) the notion that any description of the carnage is a ploy by "liberal media" to support an anti-gun agenda;
4) the rock-solid belief that if only a Good Guy With a Gun had been present the shooter(s) would have been killed instantly if not sooner;
5) and, to my astonishment, a comment or two denying that the incident occurred at all.
Yes, there are several denial websites now. They purport to offer evidence that no massacres ever occur. They post photos of relatives in shock to argue that they don't appear sad enough, and photos of responders standing by to claim that if a shooting had *really* been happening everyone would have been racing around. They pose mannequins to support their claim that only a phony body could be twisted into the position of the corpses shown in news photos.
I wish a reporter would infiltrate the weapons manufacturers and show how they create the propaganda that filters inexorably into the smallest American communities. They're both talented and evil.
46
I’m concerned that the people who committed the murders are American citizens with family heritage connected to the Muslim world. This gives a false sense of reasoning for the NRA and government to latch onto. Whether it is related to terrorist reprisals related to U.S. aggression against the Muslim world or people with mental disorders is not the main issue. The real issue is the ability to carry out the mass murders because of the ease with which guns can be purchased or obtained in the U.S.
President Obama’s reaction to the latest slaughter:
“We should come together in a bipartisan basis at every level of government to make these rare as opposed to normal,” he said in a previously scheduled interview with CBS News. He added, “The one thing we do know is that we have a pattern now of mass shootings in this country that has no parallel anywhere else in the world, and there’s some steps we could take, not to eliminate every one of these mass shootings, but to improve the odds that they don’t happen as frequently.”
That sets a very narrow limit to what the true goal should be. It’s not good enough to make mass shootings rare as opposed to frequent. Those people that advocate measures outside these defined limits (repeal of the 2nd amendment) will be the new extremists in society.
President Obama’s reaction to the latest slaughter:
“We should come together in a bipartisan basis at every level of government to make these rare as opposed to normal,” he said in a previously scheduled interview with CBS News. He added, “The one thing we do know is that we have a pattern now of mass shootings in this country that has no parallel anywhere else in the world, and there’s some steps we could take, not to eliminate every one of these mass shootings, but to improve the odds that they don’t happen as frequently.”
That sets a very narrow limit to what the true goal should be. It’s not good enough to make mass shootings rare as opposed to frequent. Those people that advocate measures outside these defined limits (repeal of the 2nd amendment) will be the new extremists in society.
8
Islamic extremists kill 17 and Obama want me and other law abiding citizens to just disarm. This president truly lives in an alternative universe.
2
wrong, this is an act of terrorism, and that fact DOES matter. The mindset of "terrorist reprisals related to U.S. aggression against the Muslim world" gives Islamic terrorists a free pass to act as they do, and that is just plain wrong. The US government doing what it has to do, without interference from liberals, Islamic profiling and all, is every bit as important as reigning in the ability to buy a gun in this country.
1
My goodness, the San Bernardino shooting has nothing to do with gun control. Folks who have determined in their own mind the only way to deal with a particular situation is to kill someone are not going to be deterred from obtaining a mechanism to accomplish their ends. All this hand-wringing over how to deal with this situation is a silly waste of time. We started this whole thing when we found a couple British soldiers stealing chickens from a barn in New Jersey. This is a violent country starting from hour one and this won't change by asking you why you want a gun when you try to buy one. Violence and retribution are part fo the American Way.
15
you, "tough guy", are pert of the problem. until enough of us are ashamed of events like this happening on our home soil it will only get worse.
I doubt that you have that response for any other public health issue. The "American Way," as I see it, is a "can do" problem solving approach, which was noted by Tocqueville centuries ago, not passivity in the face of problems or despair.
Why did these people have assault weapons and so much ammunition and tactical gear? Obviously this is about gun control. The United States has never before (and other countries still don't) had such mass killings. It was not a violent homicidal nation until the NRA and gun nuts decided to turn it into a war zone. Even the so-called Wild West had gun ordinances in towns that Wyatt Earp and others enforced.
A gun is the only device one can buy that is purpose-built to kill someone. Whether or not this is in the context of self-defense or homicidal lunacy, the fact remains that a gun fulfills its design-purpose when it kills. Improvements in firearm technology have been in one direction- increased lethality. The move from semi-automatic to automatic mechanisms, development of larger caliber bullets and higher capacity magazines, and introduction of hollow-point and armor-piercing rounds- were these in response to consumer-demand for better ways to shoot Coke cans off a fence?
The guns functioned perfectly today, as they have time and again, as they did in Colorado last week, and as they did in Connecticut in 2012. The flip-side of the mental-health focus is this, that while the perpetrators were dysfunctional, the guns were not. Are we this naively foolish about what a gun is? Are we this delusional?
The guns functioned perfectly today, as they have time and again, as they did in Colorado last week, and as they did in Connecticut in 2012. The flip-side of the mental-health focus is this, that while the perpetrators were dysfunctional, the guns were not. Are we this naively foolish about what a gun is? Are we this delusional?
92
You didn't mention the numerous pipe bombs the terrorists had with them. They are banned aren't they? If they had used them would gun control make a difference to the dead? Disgusting politicization of a terrible incident for blind extreme left wing ideological reasons.
"Purposely built to kill 'somebody'"? Wow!
Guns are not the only devices designed to kill someone. Many knives are designed for combat. Knives kill far more Americans than rifles, including military-style assault rifles like those used yesterday in San Bernardino. The FBI Uniform Crime Report (Expanded Homicide Data Table 8) shows that rifles were used to murder 248 people in 2014 while knives were used to murder 1,567. Handguns account for the vast majority of murders, but about 32 percent of murder victims are stabbed, beaten, kicked or stomped to death.
It is no doubt beyond his power, but I would be thrilled to see President Obama declare a state of emergency and implement an immediate moratorium on gun sales.
46
I honestly think that would foment a revolution. And as we know there would be no shortage of weapons. I was out west
And since when has being "beyond his power" stopped Junior from doing anything?
Yeah, I'd like to see that too but I suspect for different reasons. Remember the military and the police are not the children of the left and Democrats haven't even been able to control gangs in Chicago.
Whose naive, the ones who are clueless that murder rates have gone down consistently since 1990 or the ones that see all these mass shootings and whose immediate response is gun control. It's not as if guns are more readily available than last year, or the years before that or the year before....
12
Mass killings have gone up. They are made possible by greater access to guns including assault and semi-assault weapons and enormous amounts of ammunition. Remember there used to be an assault weapon ban and a ban on large-capacity magazines.
http://www.gannett-cdn.com/GDContent/mass-killings/index.html#triggers http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/16/16549416-was-the-last-assault...
http://www.gannett-cdn.com/GDContent/mass-killings/index.html#triggers http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/16/16549416-was-the-last-assault...
This is a red herring. We're talking about gun deaths
-which are now outpacing death by automobile accident - not the murder rate.
-which are now outpacing death by automobile accident - not the murder rate.
Boob-Jason, You are officially not to utter another stupid thing. Since that's all you do, you will be silenced. Signed--The Enforcer against Jaysons
You failed to define 'sensible gun controls'.
The left wants guns confiscated, the right wants every one armed. There has to be a middle ground, but obscure 'sensible gun controls' does not describe a solution.
The left wants guns confiscated, the right wants every one armed. There has to be a middle ground, but obscure 'sensible gun controls' does not describe a solution.
13
references please? = "The left wants guns confiscated..."
1
Oddly enough, no official on the 'left' has called for confiscating all your guns. I know of an altered video of Feinstein saying she would take all military-style assault rifles off the street if she could, but that's as close as the right's lies get...alter a video to make a point.
Folks say (Republican candidates even) that brave citizens should rush a gunman when he reloads. So sensible would be making him reload more often, not less. High-powered ammo that penetrates several walls into your neighbor's homes are not sensible for home defense. People so risky we won't let them on a plane could sensibly be restricted from buying a gun. There is no one set of 'sensible gun controls'. You folks will not even honestly discuss ANY of them.
Folks say (Republican candidates even) that brave citizens should rush a gunman when he reloads. So sensible would be making him reload more often, not less. High-powered ammo that penetrates several walls into your neighbor's homes are not sensible for home defense. People so risky we won't let them on a plane could sensibly be restricted from buying a gun. There is no one set of 'sensible gun controls'. You folks will not even honestly discuss ANY of them.
1
False. I am of the left and have no desire to see guns confiscated. I support people's rights to hunt, for example. I would like to see sensible gun regulations like those that Australia has....a waiting period, licensing, the need to justify the class of weapon one seeks to purchase, mandated safety classes, references from health providers prior to being able to purchase a gun, bans to "assault' style weapons across the country...and most importantly, uniform national regulations, as the country is supposed to be the "United" states, and as such, there are no border controls.
1
Semi automatic assault style weapons & large capacity ammunition magazines are illegal in California as is murder. Two to three people enter a conference room wearing black or camouflage clothing plus body armor and commit murder, escape before police arrived. As of tonight we have no motive, but their is a motive. NYT please tell all what law would have prevented these murders? The Colorado Springs murders were committed by a deranged man, in Colorado murder is also illegal. What law would have prevented these murders? In most mass killings others knew the killer was deranged and said and did nothing. Bet someone knew about the planned California killings and did nothing.
15
Kitting up for war is generally evidence of intent, isn't it?
1
The laws that allowed people to keep their semiautomatic weapons instead if giving them up and the laws that allow you to buy these weapons in other states and transport them back to California.
1. Make the manufacture or ownership of assault weapons (no need for "style" here, they are intended for assault) illegal in ALL states.
2. Allow the police to confiscate guns (or at least prevent their sale) to persons determined to be mentally unfit.
It's really not that complicated.
2. Allow the police to confiscate guns (or at least prevent their sale) to persons determined to be mentally unfit.
It's really not that complicated.
Putting the blame on mental health patients is an insult to people suffering of mental health. Guns kill people. Not your neighbor's depression.
47
Guns do not help disturbed people to become better adjusted.
1
So if we do get to enact sensible gun control, mental illness would not be one of the limitation on purchasing a gun?
2
Collegemom- "Putting the blame on mental health patients is an insult to people suffering of mental health. Guns kill people. Not your neighbor's depression."
Any person who can slaughter 20 schoolchildren without blinking IS mentally ill. Not all mentally ill will be mass murderers but it is disingenuous to believe that people who willfully kill others don't have some form of mental health disorder. Normal people don't shoot people nor do they ever entertain thoughts of doing so. This doesn't infer that all who suffer from mental illness will become mass murderers but mentally stable people don't go on shooting sprees. Sorry.
Any person who can slaughter 20 schoolchildren without blinking IS mentally ill. Not all mentally ill will be mass murderers but it is disingenuous to believe that people who willfully kill others don't have some form of mental health disorder. Normal people don't shoot people nor do they ever entertain thoughts of doing so. This doesn't infer that all who suffer from mental illness will become mass murderers but mentally stable people don't go on shooting sprees. Sorry.
2
If we call it "domestic terrorism" then we don't have to address any gun issues.
Simple.
Simple.
8
How about Islamic Terrorists? I refuse to be a victim and will now carry a weapon everywhere I go. The police show up after people are dead.
There is no rational support for the right wing argument that more guns will make people safer. On the contrary, the U.S. already has the that largest number of guns per capita in the developed world and we also have the highest death rate by guns. The science and the data do not lie, we are alone in our tolerance of this gun madness. Paranoid right wing interests continue to promote selfish lies and antigovernment propaganda. It is past time to take our congress back from these irrational fanatics. The republican presidential candidates are all wimps and pimps for the gun lobby.
59
Oh how I wish I shared your confidence about the connection between gun regulation and active shooter incidents.
Don;t get me wrong: such regulation will have all sorts of benefits, including reduced gun violence.
But every time gun regulation is raised in the aftermath of incidents like this, I worry that people might assume some established causal relationship between regulation and incident prevention.
Lives will be saved with serious regulation, but no public policy is so surgically effective that it can magically solve a complex, ongoing, multivariate problem.
Gun regulation is a tool of violence reduction. Just don't oversell it as a way to end one very special type of crime that has its own special, complex dynamics.
Don;t get me wrong: such regulation will have all sorts of benefits, including reduced gun violence.
But every time gun regulation is raised in the aftermath of incidents like this, I worry that people might assume some established causal relationship between regulation and incident prevention.
Lives will be saved with serious regulation, but no public policy is so surgically effective that it can magically solve a complex, ongoing, multivariate problem.
Gun regulation is a tool of violence reduction. Just don't oversell it as a way to end one very special type of crime that has its own special, complex dynamics.
49
Guns exacerbate the end-times mentalities of people like Robert Dear too.
Horace,
Your twisting and turning to equate this event as not having a 'causal' relationship between regulation and incident prevention is ludicrous on it's face.
The call for sensible, responsible, and ethical gun management IS needed.
The fact that 55 percent of Americans favor stricter gun control legislation—an increase of 8 percentage points from last year, is proof that you, and others who obfuscate the issue on behalf of the NRA (and it's bought and paid for members of Congress) are on the wrong side here.
Your twisting and turning to equate this event as not having a 'causal' relationship between regulation and incident prevention is ludicrous on it's face.
The call for sensible, responsible, and ethical gun management IS needed.
The fact that 55 percent of Americans favor stricter gun control legislation—an increase of 8 percentage points from last year, is proof that you, and others who obfuscate the issue on behalf of the NRA (and it's bought and paid for members of Congress) are on the wrong side here.
1
Given the depth and breadth of years of commentary on this subject, most all we hear is trite. So here is another such remark: do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. It would be nice to see us leave the starting gate--maybe in 10 or 20 years we'd get somewhere?
We need to stop politicizing this issue. California has one of the toughest gun control laws in the nation, so even if other states passed similar legislation this would have happened. If criminals want guns, they will get them.
Mass shootings are not caused by lack of gun control. I do not recall mass shootings happening on this level of frequency in the 90s, or 80s, or 70s. Something about this nation has made its people sick. Maybe it s the apathy caused by social media, the American obsession with violence and domination, or the worsening economic conditions of this country. Whatever it is, it needs to be fixed, and it cannot be fixed by something as divisive as gun control legislation.
Mass shootings are not caused by lack of gun control. I do not recall mass shootings happening on this level of frequency in the 90s, or 80s, or 70s. Something about this nation has made its people sick. Maybe it s the apathy caused by social media, the American obsession with violence and domination, or the worsening economic conditions of this country. Whatever it is, it needs to be fixed, and it cannot be fixed by something as divisive as gun control legislation.
26
Helplessless and a sense of imminence of doom pervades the US. Guns are part of the positive feedback loop driving this mentality.
1
The economy is improving, so quit with that nonesense. However you have nailed it with the american obsession with violence...and guns.
Oh, let's lesson our obsession with violence. George, call Hollywood, they'll be thrilled to hear from you.
Guns need to be treated like secon hand smoke. They are clearly a health issue.
13
Very irresponsible editorial in my opinion. Other than knowing we know people are dead, we know NOTHING about the motives. Yet, you publish an editorial? You are just as bad as the President. It's a horrible thing to politicize this act. And this act, may turn out to be a terrorist act, not a criminal act, as most criminal acts do not involve three heavily armed shooters with pipe bombs. And to get to your other point, California has tough gun control. In fact, the US has tough gun control. If you really want to get into a conversation, you would focus on mental health issues in the US, not gun control. But, at least wait until we know what we're dealing with, andd please be brave enough to publish the names of the shooters, even if they're not white Christians.
36
I get it. Guns are more important to you than anything else. Other than getting in a dig at President Obama.
1
"the US has tough gun control"
Really? 300Million+ guns in circulation; the ability to buy guns at gun shows w/o background checks; the NRA actively lobbying to allow terrorists to gain access to guns?
You can wake up now.
Really? 300Million+ guns in circulation; the ability to buy guns at gun shows w/o background checks; the NRA actively lobbying to allow terrorists to gain access to guns?
You can wake up now.
1
me - Get real! There are too many guns in this country and too many people
are murdered by them. "Just as bad as the President" - what relevance does that
snide comment have to this situation? We are the only "civilized" country that has
this "gun" problem - the revolutionary war is over here - we don't need protection
from the government. The government is us! Maybe you want to live in a country
where you are not safe from other people's guns, but I don't, and it's up to the
cowards in congress to enact laws to protect us from the flood of guns that are
killing us.
are murdered by them. "Just as bad as the President" - what relevance does that
snide comment have to this situation? We are the only "civilized" country that has
this "gun" problem - the revolutionary war is over here - we don't need protection
from the government. The government is us! Maybe you want to live in a country
where you are not safe from other people's guns, but I don't, and it's up to the
cowards in congress to enact laws to protect us from the flood of guns that are
killing us.
1
As President Obama pointed out, a person can be on the no fly list and still legally buy a gun.
We are so far away from sensible gun legislation that it is tragic. And, honestly, I'm more angry at the legislators who want to do something and haven't than the pathetic ones who are bought and sold by the gun industry.
We are so far away from sensible gun legislation that it is tragic. And, honestly, I'm more angry at the legislators who want to do something and haven't than the pathetic ones who are bought and sold by the gun industry.
12
If a person is own a no fly list then why is that person in the country or not in jail
This is because the government's competence at getting the computer systems interconnected properly is a zero, just like the OBAMACARE roll out.
Can we focus on the real problem and not the symptom? This is mental illness, not a gun issue. People don't just go out and do this if they are in a good state of mental health. This is the result of the lack of solutions for mental illness in the country.
5
Marci- we don't force people to get mental health screenings. Those who suffer delusions of grandeur are narcissists. They don't believe that they are mentally ill. Does a religious-crazed jihadist believe he is mentally ill? How about a white supremacist? A person who listens to the voice of God then acts on this voice's instruction? A radical homophobe? Or any crazed religious zealot? Did Dylan Roof seek mental health intervention? Robert Dear? Adam Lanza? His paranoid mother? Or any of the other slaughterers too numerous to name? All would be considered mentally ill by the rational among us but none would seek help since it is their belief that there is nothing wrong with them. How do we screen for that? Are people born unstable? Where's the cutoff line? A certain age? Will the sacrosanct second amendment obsessed go along with any mental health screening? We can't even get them to agree on background checks!
Are we the only country with a high population of mentally ill? No. Are we the only country with prolific sales of guns? Yes.
1
Marci, there are mentally ill people everywhere, all over the world. But it is only in the U.S. that these shootings occur on such a regular basis. Now what could the reason for that be? Perhaps the fact that there are over 300 million guns in circulation.....?
1
The new panacea is the prescription of better mental health services. How are such measures preventative? They are not because we will never truly know of someone's mental instabilities. Ensuring that people don't have guns is what the law can help realize. I have to break with the President on this issue. We are being too timid. It is time to say good bye to the second amendment. If we are a civilized people, we don't need guns and we certainly aren't entitled to guns because guns that aren't hunting rifles serve only one purpose, and that is to kill. I know this will take time and every second amendment loving person will cry bloody murder. I don't care. We don't need common sense gun laws. What we need are no more guns. Buy back all the existing guns. In a civil society we don't need guns nor do we need conceal carry laws.
17
The law-breaking have ruined it for the law-abiding, and now everyone must face some restrictions on their rights in order to maintain a functioning society. If yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater is an exception to the First Amendment, surely shooting up a conference room must be an exception to the Second.
52
Too true, just like yelling "fire: is illegal, so is murdering folks in a holiday party.
Shooting up a conference room is already just as illegal as spreading panic in a crowd.
The fallacy of the Left's "solution" is that the thugs and terrorists won't be constrained by gun laws. The Left will be disarming only the future victims.
The Left will be increasing the carnage by orders of magnitude.
Obama's Iran nuke deal is analogous. Iran isn't constrained by the deal and the nuclear-armed apocalyptic radical-Islamist terrorists won't be constrained by MAD.
“I’ve been very clear that Iran will not get a nuclear weapon on my watch.”
– Obama to T. Friedman
Obama's hollow commitment covering only his remaining months in office exposes his delusions/true intentions/dangerous pathology.
INTENTIONS:
• Burnish his legacy w/ transformational & Leftist bona fides: The security of America/world is not on his radar
• Protect his legacy at all cost
• Shift balance of power in ME from the West to apocalyptic radical Islam w/ a nuclear-armed Iran & a marginalized if not vaporized Israel
• Set predicate for dishonest Leftist historians/hagiographers/professors to hold him blameless when–NB: "when," not "if"–Iran gets the bomb… and uses it
Obama owns the post-Obama years in perpetuity.
The Left will be increasing the carnage by orders of magnitude.
Obama's Iran nuke deal is analogous. Iran isn't constrained by the deal and the nuclear-armed apocalyptic radical-Islamist terrorists won't be constrained by MAD.
“I’ve been very clear that Iran will not get a nuclear weapon on my watch.”
– Obama to T. Friedman
Obama's hollow commitment covering only his remaining months in office exposes his delusions/true intentions/dangerous pathology.
INTENTIONS:
• Burnish his legacy w/ transformational & Leftist bona fides: The security of America/world is not on his radar
• Protect his legacy at all cost
• Shift balance of power in ME from the West to apocalyptic radical Islam w/ a nuclear-armed Iran & a marginalized if not vaporized Israel
• Set predicate for dishonest Leftist historians/hagiographers/professors to hold him blameless when–NB: "when," not "if"–Iran gets the bomb… and uses it
Obama owns the post-Obama years in perpetuity.
What if insurance companies suddenly had to pay damages every time guns amd bullets purchased from their insured customers (the Walmarts, gun stores, online gun sellers, et al) were used to commit murder or a felony? This worked in Wisconsin when a jury "awarded more than $5 million in damages to two police officers who were severely wounded with a pistol that a local gun shop sold to a straw buyer." [NYTimes 10/14/2015.] And now that many state legislatures have passed "open carry" and "Stand Your Ground" laws, surely all businesses, universities, churches, malls/stores, etc. in those states must now pay more for liability insurance and health insurance. Can anyone verify this?
66
I can verify what you say is specious. Insurers don't cover such things, just like Honda isn't liable if someone uses once of their cars to run you down.
"Open carry" is the default position for gun transport, all other things being equal it's legal to carry a gun unconcealed. States pass laws against it, not for it. Self defense has always been legal, "stand your ground" just specifies that the person has no requirement to try to flee or the police have no basis to prosecute when a person is defending themselves. The cops in Wisconsin got a damages award, not an insurance payout.
There is no liability for legal acts.
"Open carry" is the default position for gun transport, all other things being equal it's legal to carry a gun unconcealed. States pass laws against it, not for it. Self defense has always been legal, "stand your ground" just specifies that the person has no requirement to try to flee or the police have no basis to prosecute when a person is defending themselves. The cops in Wisconsin got a damages award, not an insurance payout.
There is no liability for legal acts.
Its been thought of, tried, and thwarted, a long time ago by the usual suspects in the GOP-NRA 'axis of deception' who've passed legislation in many/most statehouses PREVENTING legislatures (including Congress itself) from enacting such liability laws. This and preventing government from compiling statistics and even allowing doctors to ask patients whether firearms are in the home (where are those 'free speech' defenders now?) It all points to the abject cynicism of the GOP on the issue. Perfectly willing to let innocent men, women, and children (and cops) get gunned down in cold blood while these so-called 'leaders' actively prevent anything meaningful to be done that has anything to do with guns, gun owners, or gun safety.
Their latest gambit? Wax emotionally for supporting our 'mentally ill'. So, finding a needle in a haystack while blindfolded? No problem, go for it. But do anything about that enormous pile of hay? Absolutely not. Hands off.
PS: and don't anyone DARE compare a 1st-trimester fingernail sized collection of fetal cells, aborted with consent, with the deaths of tens of thousands living, breathing, adults and their children! Such comparisons are obscene!
Their latest gambit? Wax emotionally for supporting our 'mentally ill'. So, finding a needle in a haystack while blindfolded? No problem, go for it. But do anything about that enormous pile of hay? Absolutely not. Hands off.
PS: and don't anyone DARE compare a 1st-trimester fingernail sized collection of fetal cells, aborted with consent, with the deaths of tens of thousands living, breathing, adults and their children! Such comparisons are obscene!
i recently read a study that shows that gun rights advocates have a much lower average IQ than the national average...such is the sad state of de-evolution
The mental health excuse amounts to scapegoating individuals who do not fit what some Republican politician says is the profile of a mentally healthy American.
Violence is woven into the DNA of the American psyche. From even before it was founded, a fundamental organizing principle of the USA has been violence. It does not surprise me that for some Americans fantasies of violence no longer staisfy and they acquire a taste for the real thing.
I think that buying a gun is an affirmation that the buyer has given him or herself license to take another poerson's life. That decision is the start of a slippery slope.
Violence is woven into the DNA of the American psyche. From even before it was founded, a fundamental organizing principle of the USA has been violence. It does not surprise me that for some Americans fantasies of violence no longer staisfy and they acquire a taste for the real thing.
I think that buying a gun is an affirmation that the buyer has given him or herself license to take another poerson's life. That decision is the start of a slippery slope.
51
Thanks for your input Canadian. But no one cares about your extreme views. Stick to herding moose or whatever you do up there.
1
Very astute analysis of American history. Tolerating slavery of blacks and the wholesale thievery and pillage of Native American lands until the late nineteenth century are two black marks which mainstream Americans refuse to acknowledge. The United States would never have attained its wealth and power so quickly without resorting to violence to oppress these minorities -- history would have been quite different if the westward expansion had been undertaken at a slower rate whilst taking time to respect the rights and privileges of the original inhabitants of the land.
1
Perhaps we can look on gun makers and sellers and users as merchants of death and murderers just as some view abortion providers.
73
Since it was a terrorist attack, what does your comment have to do with anything?
2
Why copycat people who are both wrong and abusive of women?
The unspoken position of gun owners is that the carnage is the price they are willing to pay to preserve their constitutional right to gun ownership. They point to the fact that gun control suggestions place an unfair burden on them and few if any would prevent these mass murders.
The gun control proponents really believe that no one should have a firearm except the police and military. This is an unbridgeable cultural gap and the gun owners have the votes. Either the two sides start talking constructively or the status quo will continue regardless of how much feckless hot air Obama blows on the subject. Indeed Obama 's election was a Godsend to the arms manufacturers as sales have soared. Further evidence of the gap between politicking and a real attempt at progress.
The gun control proponents really believe that no one should have a firearm except the police and military. This is an unbridgeable cultural gap and the gun owners have the votes. Either the two sides start talking constructively or the status quo will continue regardless of how much feckless hot air Obama blows on the subject. Indeed Obama 's election was a Godsend to the arms manufacturers as sales have soared. Further evidence of the gap between politicking and a real attempt at progress.
9
The gun proponents constitutional position is, despite the Supreme Court, a farce and mockery of "original intent" or the concept that the constitution is an evolving document to be read in terms of the changes in society. Either way 'round you can't torture the Second Amendment from its purpose: a citizen soldiery to be called up in the event of national emergency. The creation of a "standing army" put paid to the notion of "militia" and the right to keep and bear arms. I surrendered my weapon sometime ago, fearing it might be misused or get into the wrong hands. Aside from the horrors of the repeated massacres, we have the spectacle of children killing and being killed by those whose love of guns trumps any other value.
50
A majority of Americans are in favor of universal background checks, the banning of assault weapons, a clear uniform permitting process, and closer regulation of gun sales. It's coming down to what will prevail: unfettered access to guns--because of fear, suspicion, misplaced ideas about respect, and hatred of the "other"? Or will we strive to find common ground and work together for sensible protections because we love America and our families more?
49
Very few gun control advocates want all guns to disappear. Most have no problem with guns used for hunting, for target shooting, or for home defense. But why should assault weapons and semi-assault weapons that the military uses be available to anyone who walks into a gun shop?
Almost 90% of Americans want universal gun background checks; they want the gun show loophole and other loopholes closed, including the one that lets terrorist suspects buy guns. Ordinary citizens do not need hundreds of rounds of ammunition.
Fear mongering and hate mongering have led to the rise in gun sales, and the NRA exploits every opportunity. The NRA is a gun manufacturers lobby: their entire goal is to sell more guns and ammunition.
Almost 90% of Americans want universal gun background checks; they want the gun show loophole and other loopholes closed, including the one that lets terrorist suspects buy guns. Ordinary citizens do not need hundreds of rounds of ammunition.
Fear mongering and hate mongering have led to the rise in gun sales, and the NRA exploits every opportunity. The NRA is a gun manufacturers lobby: their entire goal is to sell more guns and ammunition.
Well at least we shouldn't have to wait long for the inevitable proclamation from the NRA and our fearless GOP contenders: "If all people with developmental disabilities were armed and loaded this never would have happened."
105
It was a terrorist attack , people. This entire discussion is just ridiculous and demonstrates the absurdity of the anti-second amendment crowd.
3
reSTU:NYT editors and its supporters among the liberal commenters have drawn conclusions prematurely, before knowing all the facts surrounding the tragedy yesterday. My first reaction was that it was so well planned, and coordinated--coordination is the essence of terrorism--that it had to be an ISIS inspired operation, the fulfillment of the Caliphate's vow to make us pay dearly for our latest intervention in the in the ME to destroy the Islamic State.That is my hunch, and a presentiment shared, I believe, by many others.This was no mere workplace dispute. NRA's culpability in gun violence in America is undeniable, but the shooters yesterday had a more sinister purpose, and a hypothesis that cannot be excluded is that they were acting on behalf of religious zealots in Raqqa.Time will tell.Meanwhile, no one should be spinning a narrative that may be false. The major in Fort Hood was acting on behalf, he believed, of his religion, despite the WH's claim that his murderous actions exemplified "workplace violence." No useful purpose is served by being judgemental at this point.Better to wait until all investigations have been completed. Predictably, O is also politicizing the issue before he knows the fact pattern.
1
Still a tasteless comment, just as it was the first time.
1
It is dismaying to see a number of commenters essentially saying it is useless, nothing will ever change in this country, the NRA is too powerful and will continue to dictate what happens in our nation. In that view, mass killings by guns are inevitable and we should just accept that this is the way our country functions.
President Obama stated two things recently which make a great deal of sense. One, that ordinary citizens do not need 'weapons of war'. Another of his suggestions is that there are individuals who are on 'no fly lists' yet those same people can purchase guns with no problem, close that loophole.
The solutions to gun violence can be incremental and approaching it from many fronts. Require background checks of all purchasers of firearms, whether from registered gun dealers or those at 'gun shows'. Ban assault weapons. I read that those who hunt in Australia laugh at Americans need for an assault weapon for hunting animals.
If virtually every other civilized and developed country has successfully implemented reasonable gun safety and ownership requirements, is it not time that our society evolves beyond such an obsessive ‘need’ for guns?
The fear peddlers are only too happy to promote and sell more guns, we do not need to buy what they are selling.
President Obama stated two things recently which make a great deal of sense. One, that ordinary citizens do not need 'weapons of war'. Another of his suggestions is that there are individuals who are on 'no fly lists' yet those same people can purchase guns with no problem, close that loophole.
The solutions to gun violence can be incremental and approaching it from many fronts. Require background checks of all purchasers of firearms, whether from registered gun dealers or those at 'gun shows'. Ban assault weapons. I read that those who hunt in Australia laugh at Americans need for an assault weapon for hunting animals.
If virtually every other civilized and developed country has successfully implemented reasonable gun safety and ownership requirements, is it not time that our society evolves beyond such an obsessive ‘need’ for guns?
The fear peddlers are only too happy to promote and sell more guns, we do not need to buy what they are selling.
168
Almost nobody has "weapons of war" and how about using the current laws correctly. Folks won't report mentally ill people or some that appear to be unusual as in this case.
1
Obama, as a "Constitutional Scholar" should be ashamed of himself.
The problem with the no-fly list is that the decisions to put people on that list are made in secret with no due process; once you find yourself on it, you have to hire a lawyer to sue the government to get you off of it. Consider that guilty until proven innocent. Even the ACLU, a bastion of liberalism (and I am a card carrying member of the ACLU and NOT an NRA member) harshly criticizes the lack of due process inherent in the no fly list. For anyone to conclude we should expand this star chamber process to infringe further on Constitutional rights is an abomination.
Keep the process legal and in the light of day. Gun control should have nothing to do with a star chamber procedure, and gun controllers should not let the ends justify the means.
The problem with the no-fly list is that the decisions to put people on that list are made in secret with no due process; once you find yourself on it, you have to hire a lawyer to sue the government to get you off of it. Consider that guilty until proven innocent. Even the ACLU, a bastion of liberalism (and I am a card carrying member of the ACLU and NOT an NRA member) harshly criticizes the lack of due process inherent in the no fly list. For anyone to conclude we should expand this star chamber process to infringe further on Constitutional rights is an abomination.
Keep the process legal and in the light of day. Gun control should have nothing to do with a star chamber procedure, and gun controllers should not let the ends justify the means.
1
Both laws you propose have been in effect in California for decades, and didn't make any difference in Santa Barbara.
I recognize that the vast majority of NYT readers will agree with this editorial, written (or copy-pasted) within 6 hours or so of these events. My question for those readers is this: do you know enough about how this happened to have an informed opinion on what additional gun-control measures might have prevented it?
Is this an "assault weapon" issue? That ban did not work out so well, because defining a (bad) assault weapon is tricky. These were probably not machine-guns, which are already banned under federal law.
Is this a "gun show loophole" issue? If that turns out to be the case - and relatively few gun sales appear to escape detection and regulation through that route - I could certainly see the case for closing it. But we have no idea if this idea, however meritorious in the abstract, has anything to do with this shooting, or the others that have gained national attention in recent years. (Contrast with the recent trial in Wisconsin, where a gun shop was found to have looked the other way on a "straw purchase" that was later used to shoot two police officers.)
Abstractly, most people are for "sensible gun control", though the contours of that category vary considerably from person to person. But gun control supporters do their case no favors among those not already in the choir, by treating each episode of mass gun violence as if it had a universal adapter on it - ready-fitted for the handful of proposals already on their shelf.
Is this an "assault weapon" issue? That ban did not work out so well, because defining a (bad) assault weapon is tricky. These were probably not machine-guns, which are already banned under federal law.
Is this a "gun show loophole" issue? If that turns out to be the case - and relatively few gun sales appear to escape detection and regulation through that route - I could certainly see the case for closing it. But we have no idea if this idea, however meritorious in the abstract, has anything to do with this shooting, or the others that have gained national attention in recent years. (Contrast with the recent trial in Wisconsin, where a gun shop was found to have looked the other way on a "straw purchase" that was later used to shoot two police officers.)
Abstractly, most people are for "sensible gun control", though the contours of that category vary considerably from person to person. But gun control supporters do their case no favors among those not already in the choir, by treating each episode of mass gun violence as if it had a universal adapter on it - ready-fitted for the handful of proposals already on their shelf.
75
Are there GOOD assault weapons? Unless you're trying to take down a rhinoceros or a whole division of ISIS members I can't see how any such weapon would be useful. In any case, if we're now ready to look at "each episode of gun violence" as a discrete event, we're acknowledging that there are way too many of them to regard this as anything but a pandemic that needs to be addressed as such.
44
It's amazing how many people like Adam post here, saying they're sensible (unlike the rest of us), and deny there's anything we can do about the problem.
I don't argue that every case isn't different in motive, criminal, victims, etc. But the one common factor is easy access to guns and ammo. Back about 30 years ago, drunk driving deaths reached epidemic proportions. The government acted with strong measures to reduce those deaths, and it worked. It didn't take cars away, either.
I don't argue that every case isn't different in motive, criminal, victims, etc. But the one common factor is easy access to guns and ammo. Back about 30 years ago, drunk driving deaths reached epidemic proportions. The government acted with strong measures to reduce those deaths, and it worked. It didn't take cars away, either.
23
Actually, you don't even need legislation to reduce this problem. If republicans and right-wing pundits had the courage or compassion to simply stop idolizing guns and speak out for peace, things might start to change without a single vote.
4
Let's see a few state governors pass some decent gun responsibility regulations. Turn it into a states rights issue. That's how the improbable right to same sex marriage came to pass.
143
You ARE kidding right? If someone with a criminal record or on a no-fly listing purchases a gun in Virginia and uses it to wipe out a family in Astoria which state's rights are involved?
19
Nice idea, but it already happens. Problem is: there are invisible lines between states.
4
California HAS sensible gun legislation: but the Nevada border is only a few miles from virtually every part of California and Nevada does not have sensible gun control. That's what happens when the matter is left to the states.
Why does the NY Times and gun control advocates continue their quixotic quest in the face of the following:<br/><br/>"...the sales of weapons grow ever higher. Holiday shoppers set a record for Black Friday gun sales last week. They left the Federal Bureau of Investigation processing 185,345 firearm background checks, the most ever in a single day..."<br/><br/>Across this nation, the people have spoken - they want their guns and they want the unfettered right to them, the consequences be damned. Politicians are the servants of the people and are simply following their dictate. <br/><br/>The NY Times and the rest of the anti-gun crowd need to move on to another issue - or move to another country where they can have the gun control measures they so long for cause it ain't happening here in the US of A!
42
Your correct, the people have spoken and virtually every time they do they tell us that they are in favor of sensible gun controls. You can buy a gun (or 20 of them) and still be in favor of background checks at gun shows and through internet sales. Lots of legal gun owners are shot dead every year by people who have criminal records and should not have been issued a weapon.
28
Make that "YOU'RE correct." My bad.
6
Move right along, nothing to see. Let's get back to how ISIS threatens our lives.
4
Must EACH OF US lose a loved one before the gun lobby is stopped?
177
Don't forget the car lobby, they're killing our loved ones too.
1
Do you realize how exceedingly rare these events are? Clearly you do not. Your chances of being involved in one of these shootings, or losing a loved one in such an event, are infinitesimally remote.
1
bayboat - just for the record, cars are not designed to kill things; guns are. And yet, we regulate the bejesus out of cars - you need a license to drive one; you have to have insurance; you have to register it with the state. But guns? -Even people on the terrorist "no fly list" can go in and buy a gun and pass a background check, because the NRA says we can't have a "no buy" list for them!
1
I live in heavily armed country. San Bernardino is in the zone. So is Colorado Springs. Why doesn't anyone ever wonder why the people who are getting shot at don't shoot back?
As a gun owner myself, the answer is simple: Americans don't want to be getting into civilian gun fights at their places of work, worship, education, health care and anywhere else, either.
I shudder, shudder at the amount of firepower loose in this nation. Civilized people don't go to school, church and work armed.
The NRA - again I am a gun owner - wants us to believe that we all should be packing all the time.
Maybe, in their twisted world, that is how it will go. We will be reduced to pulling down on anyone and everyone.
Personally, that is my vision of literal hell on earth.
I don't have a military weapon. Why are they for sale in this country?
As a gun owner myself, the answer is simple: Americans don't want to be getting into civilian gun fights at their places of work, worship, education, health care and anywhere else, either.
I shudder, shudder at the amount of firepower loose in this nation. Civilized people don't go to school, church and work armed.
The NRA - again I am a gun owner - wants us to believe that we all should be packing all the time.
Maybe, in their twisted world, that is how it will go. We will be reduced to pulling down on anyone and everyone.
Personally, that is my vision of literal hell on earth.
I don't have a military weapon. Why are they for sale in this country?
588
I was a gun owner until 2 years ago. Got rid of them. Maybe you should do the same. Don't be afraid. I'm still alive.
4
Amen brother.
3
Military weapons are NOT legal in this country and haven't been for decades.
1
"Without firm action, violent criminals will keep terrorizing communities and the nation, inflicting mass death and damage across the land."
Then join with me in calling for a return to "broken windows" policing in American war zones like Chicago's inner city, and drop your Fourth Amendment absolutist position against "stop & frisk," so that people of color might stop slaughtering each other for a few weeks.
Then join with me separately in condemning Islamic fascist terror and cease hiding behind the label of "workplace violence."
Then join with me to enforce existing mental illness proscriptions against gun ownership, and enacting tougher such regulations.
But your clarion call to blame "gun ownership" is false, as are your cries to censor the energy companies and deny their First Amendment right in doubting the 100% accuracy of "climate science."
Your left wing agenda is just as false as any NRA absolutist position.
Try finding the middle ground in this argument and you might just be part of the solution instead of a polarizing unproductive bunch of moralizers. We already have that from the White House.
Then join with me in calling for a return to "broken windows" policing in American war zones like Chicago's inner city, and drop your Fourth Amendment absolutist position against "stop & frisk," so that people of color might stop slaughtering each other for a few weeks.
Then join with me separately in condemning Islamic fascist terror and cease hiding behind the label of "workplace violence."
Then join with me to enforce existing mental illness proscriptions against gun ownership, and enacting tougher such regulations.
But your clarion call to blame "gun ownership" is false, as are your cries to censor the energy companies and deny their First Amendment right in doubting the 100% accuracy of "climate science."
Your left wing agenda is just as false as any NRA absolutist position.
Try finding the middle ground in this argument and you might just be part of the solution instead of a polarizing unproductive bunch of moralizers. We already have that from the White House.
21
Are you willing to drop your senseless defense of the Second Amendment if I drop defense of the Fourth? As written, the Second Amendment says you should be in a 'militia' to have a weapon. But now we need a militia to protect us from the Second Amendment defenders.
1
I hope this is hyperbolic satire, but in the event that it's not, let's call 9 out of 10 suspects stopped and frisked are cleared of any wrongdoing. How about evidence-based policies for a chance -- including in the area of gun control.
1
Most countries on a par with the US don't have the near daily gun violence we endure. Because they tightly control gun ownership. They're rational and we're not.
I blame the NRA. Every death of every mass shooting in this country should be laid at their door. They block all meaningful legislation in this country to help prevent these kinds of deaths. They should be held accountable.
398
Amen.
1
Blame the idiots in Congress who do what the NRA wants. They've got the power to say NO to NRA demands. But we all know that our "representatives" are bought and paid for ...
1
Is AAA responsible for all the traffic accidents?
1
What I find amazing is that we're not sure if this was the act of terrorists or just the normal weekly mass killing. That is messed up.
Amend the Second and make it more clear. I'm pretty sure the Framers didn't have this kind of stuff in mind.
Amend the Second and make it more clear. I'm pretty sure the Framers didn't have this kind of stuff in mind.
291
They had a "well regulated Militia" in mind, "necessary to the security of a free State" in lieu of a large standing army - well regulated meaning under military control and subject to the "articles of war" (today the UCMJ), not a bunch of vigilantes. The amendment has been reinterpreted in recent Supreme Court cases so that it is long unhinged from what the Framers wrote. Never thought it was all that unclear, myself.
https://dmsmithauthorblog.wordpress.com/light-reading/
https://dmsmithauthorblog.wordpress.com/light-reading/
3
The Framers had just gotten through fighting a bloody insurgency against a despotic monarchy and wanted to insure that there were lots and lots of checks against a despotic regime, and wanted an armed population as one of those checks. Perhaps instead of an armed population you would also "clarify" the Constitution by reducing the amount of Federal power overall, in general?
"Normal weekly mass killings" are the work of terrorists. Regardless of the color of their skins, their beliefs. Enough of making one about terrorism and the other about our "sacred" rights under the 2nd Amendment.
1
We are doing ISIS' work for them. Slaughtering innocent Americans.
And not a peep out of all the millions on the right esp. the politicians running for the R nomination, the right wing hacks on the SCOTUS, the media.
I say, let's make the Capitol and the SCOTUS an open carry zone and then let's see what and how they do.
And not a peep out of all the millions on the right esp. the politicians running for the R nomination, the right wing hacks on the SCOTUS, the media.
I say, let's make the Capitol and the SCOTUS an open carry zone and then let's see what and how they do.
145
How can you say "not a peep" while the situation is still unfolding? Do you have a parrot typing this for you? Is it the same parrot that wrote this editorial, calling for "sensible" laws that might have prevented this crime before we even know what happened?
6
I know facts don't mean much to the Left, but you do realize that DC has some of the most violent crime rates in the country, correct? Most people there would welcome the ability of law-abiding citizens to be able to protect themselves and others. Almost all of the shootings, including today, occur in "gun free zones" because they are full of soft targets. Shooters know that law-abiding citizens will leave their firearms at home in these zones, which creates a perfect environment for terrorist acts. The facts actually support the opposite of the statement that you have posited; people would likely be safer if sane people had guns on them in these gun free zones when sociopaths start shooting.
1
The crime was committed by a guy anf friends supported by leftists such as yourself. Wake up.
1
Erect a stage across the street from the NRA headquarters.
For every gun violence death burn an American Flag.
Each and every death = one flag burns.
For every gun violence death burn an American Flag.
Each and every death = one flag burns.
77
Those so-called pro-lifers should be waving their "Murderers" signs and protesting in front of every gun shop and the NRA not women's health care clinics if they really want to stop living people from being murdered.
And given that (according to the FBI) the US is actually 8th in the world in murders, at 14,827 in 2012, I'd say you are going to be buying a lot of flags from other nations. The following nation lead us in murders:
Brazil: 50,108
India: 43,355
Nigeria: 33,817
Mexico: 26,037
Democratic Republic of the Congo: 18,586
South Africa: 16,259
Venezuela: 16,072
Of course, you knew that. Right?
Brazil: 50,108
India: 43,355
Nigeria: 33,817
Mexico: 26,037
Democratic Republic of the Congo: 18,586
South Africa: 16,259
Venezuela: 16,072
Of course, you knew that. Right?
They are the ones selling out the country for cash- keep the flag and burn Wayne LaPierre's wig every day.
The idea that better mental health care will solve the problem of gun massacres is a fantasy.
If indeed a mental health evaluation were to be required before a gun purchase, who is to say that the owner won't become mentally ill a day, a week, a month or years later? Will we require weekly reevaluations for all gun owners? I seriously doubt it.
The only solution is to repeal the second amendment and buy back all the guns, similar to what Australia did.
If indeed a mental health evaluation were to be required before a gun purchase, who is to say that the owner won't become mentally ill a day, a week, a month or years later? Will we require weekly reevaluations for all gun owners? I seriously doubt it.
The only solution is to repeal the second amendment and buy back all the guns, similar to what Australia did.
156
the only solution is to repeal the 2nd amendment? The tyranny of a few and you propose that we lose more rights? Think again. Terrorist are mentally ill and that's the problem that needs to be addressed.
2
Your solution will NEVER happen.
The American people don't want it. (Well, the vast majority anyway)
American politicians don't want it.
President Obama, Bernie Sanders and Hillary don't want it.
Any other ideas?
The American people don't want it. (Well, the vast majority anyway)
American politicians don't want it.
President Obama, Bernie Sanders and Hillary don't want it.
Any other ideas?
1
Well Gee first the amendment is not going to be modified, next many won't sell their guns for any price. Now treatment of mental illness is generally ineffective, ie it does not work.
1
Workplace violence? Got it Domestic terrorism. We have that too. Gangs? Lots of them. Jihadists, yes and they are US citizens, not refugees. School shootings? Yes, we let little children get killed. Now multiple shooters are attacking us. The only way to resolve this is to start by banning long guns. Let's test it in court but do it now. Then we can talk about all the issues that started us down this awful path.
45
First such a "ban" is illegal, next criminals would not obey any such "ban" and last handguns kill many more in the hands of criminals. Next idea!!!
2
So you want to ban hunting rifles? Ummm ok. It is just mind-numbing reading what Leftists think that guns are.
1
Just an idea. Perhaps some enterprising person in favor of reasonable and sensible gun control should acquire some land very close to NRA headquarters in Virginia and erect a continuing memorial to all those killed each year with guns that are not reasonable and sensible, like semi-automatic weapons. The memorial would grow and grow......
28
Unfortunately, since the NRA has absolutely no conscience, they probably wouldn't even notice.
2
How about the National Mall instead?
The GOP has cultivated a large following of single-issue voters on gun control. It swings key states. Until moderates also vote the other side of this issue, nothing can be done.
35
Perhaps when 51% of American voters know someone who has been shot something will change. Just let me get my calculator and I'll come back with a predicted date fot the United States to join the civilised world.
51
That's what it took to get gay marriage.
Don't bother. It's a lost cause.
Colin- "Perhaps when 51% of American voters know someone who has been shot something will change."
Even that won't matter. A spouse of one of those shot in the Oregon college shooting said he would never give up his right to bear arms. They love their guns over anything else and vote accordingly. Ben Carson: ‘I Never Saw a Body with Bullet Holes That Was More Devastating’ Than Taking Away 2nd Amendment Rights." We will never end this obscene obsession with guns. A good portion of our country is sick and deranged. If the slaughter of 20 little children in school could not move their ice cold "hearts" to action nothing will.
Even that won't matter. A spouse of one of those shot in the Oregon college shooting said he would never give up his right to bear arms. They love their guns over anything else and vote accordingly. Ben Carson: ‘I Never Saw a Body with Bullet Holes That Was More Devastating’ Than Taking Away 2nd Amendment Rights." We will never end this obscene obsession with guns. A good portion of our country is sick and deranged. If the slaughter of 20 little children in school could not move their ice cold "hearts" to action nothing will.
1
This is yet proof again that American gun culture is over the top. Why do so many Americans love guns so much that they are willing to live in a society where violence and deaths occur so often it is almost mundane to turn on the news and see again that more people have been shot? What is the point of having such a society? Maybe it is time to ask ourselves some pointed questions such as, is it worthwhile anymore to even support the idea of having another generation of children to put into this ongoing death machine?
62
Huh? The vast majority of people have not personally seen a shooting, so it hardly justifies your melodramatic language.
2
Insert the word "car"everywhere you have the word "gun."
Does your argument make sense now?
Does your argument make sense now?
Perhaps you should find some other country to live in.
1
Oh give it up NY Times! Using this incident to blame republicans is outright fraud! The Demecorsts held the presidency and both houses of Congress for a few years and did nothing to combat gun violence!
All politicians are the problem.
All politicians are the problem.
28
Dream on!
3
What a disingenuous comment. You know that during the Clinton administration both the Brady Bill and the assault weapons ban went through. (Expired in 2004 and not renewed.) And you also know full well that in some states nobody can be elected, Republican or Democrat, without full obedience to the NRA. Sure, there are some gutless Democrats, but the Republicans wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole.
120
Indoctrinated liberals will see what the party wants them to see.
3
For those who feed on the Dears and California killers, these events are unfortunate but acceptable collateral damage. They are a profit center for the weapons industry that finances the NRA. They offer audience ratings and a customer base for the radio rant machine. They provide votes and supporters for the politicians who egg them on, then disclaim responsibility for the actions their words evoke. And we will go on with business as usual.
40
So these shootings are free publicity for the gun manufacturers? I guess so ... every time there is a shooting, gun sales skyrocket ...
Horrors are here, horrors are there,
We are accepting everywhere,
We kowtow every day
Before the NRA,
How much more of it will we bear?
We are accepting everywhere,
We kowtow every day
Before the NRA,
How much more of it will we bear?
100
Ya, nice poem. So your actual solution is what? To ban all guns? Oh wait, we have the 2nd Amendment? Ban automatic weapons? Well, all these shootings are done by semi-automatic weapons, basically rifles and handguns. I know it's fun to rant emotionally about things that you think that you understand, but you have no solutions. You can't solve a cultural problem with gun laws.
1
Larry,
Crazy people roam our land
Some with guns in their hands
Some have knives or just drive cars.
They're free cause that's how we are.
The answer here is quite clear.
Just pass a law to end the fear
The criminals will never dare to break.
How did that work in France you say!
Crazy people roam our land
Some with guns in their hands
Some have knives or just drive cars.
They're free cause that's how we are.
The answer here is quite clear.
Just pass a law to end the fear
The criminals will never dare to break.
How did that work in France you say!
It makes no sense anymore. The Second Amendment was a protective measure employed by a nation with virtually no armed force. It was something of a fiat for citizens to prepare themselves to coalesce in defense of the country. We have a military now; that provision is unnecessary, and now misinterpreted.
A friend said to me this morning that "guns don't kill people--people do." I reminded him that guns usually don't work by themselves. I asked him, "when was the last time an AR-15 was on trial for murder?"
We witness, in America, at least five times as many gun related crimes as any other comparably developed nation. It is time stop kowtowing to the gun industry and their dollars. It is time that our leaders start to see the lives they sacrifice for the support of high-power lobbyists.