Thank you Ms. Pollitt for writing this column. It is ridiculous that in the 21st century women's rights are being pushed back to the dark ages. While some anti-abortion groups SAY they oppose this kind of violence, their proxies are just acting on the anti-women rhetoric these groups routinely spout. I have no doubt that abortion is just the first step. If Roe V Wade gets overturned, then the next step will be to take away birth control, and finally ALL women's rights and we will once again be the property of men who will control every aspect of our lives.
27
"...only a pawn in their game."
1
Robert Dear's tragic expression of violent Christian fundamentalism is inspired by the "Army of God's" militant anti-abortion ideology. A psychological analysis of the mentality and history of Christian anti-abortion extremists who turn violent shows that they all share a desperate fight to matter ultimately, which they project into "unborn" life. It is important to understand that not all fundamentalism is violent, though. What makes the difference is important. My article "On the Psychology of Violent Christian Fundamentalism: Fighting to Matter Ultimately" sheds light on the intimate relationship between anti-abortion violence and the violent religious extremist's identification with a violent God image. A copy of the article is available at: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7138341_On_the_psychology_of_vi...
4
The toll of violent abortion practices which, to quote Justice Ginzberg, are to remove those "less desirable" people from society. Or at least keep them out of the schools where NYTimes staff send their kids.
1
Time and time again when a terrorist attack occurs the media rush to defend Muslims saying it's a religion of peace, and don't let a few extremists color and pass judgement on the whole. Sadly this in not the case with pro-life activists.
4
What Robert L. Dear Jr. has proven is that at least one abortion should have happened that didn't.
10
Both Bill O'Reilly and Carly Fiorina stand firmly against abortion and are not bullied by the left wing pundits to speak out against this inhumane and cruel behavior. I am glad they are not afraid and admire their courage. We need more like them who are willing to express the horrors of abortion. Thank you Mr. O'Reilly and Mrs. Farina. I wish Hilary Clinton and Bernie Sanders were as brave and had some backbone in denouncing this atrocious behavior.
5
So are you suggesting that we restrict free speech as it relates to anti-abortion speech? Or is this just another article to take advantage of a lunatic's act to buttress 'victimization' status? To elicit public sympathy?
One of the things I detest in our public conversation is the rise of activists (both left and right) to sway public opinion by demonizing the opposition and 'victimizing' those who we agree with. It is a dishonest conversation on both sides.
You parsed Huckabee's statement against murder, by stating " In fact, even when deploring violence, opponents equate it with the practice of abortion." Um, yes they think abortion is murder which is why they've protested for the last 41 years. "Millions of dead babies versus “people attacking” a clinic? Which sounds like the greater evil to you?" The point is that he is EQUATING the two, not sending some secret code.
With regards to the PEW research study that most Americans support abortion, I took a look at that and actually it initiated a couple of questions/observation. The number supporting all cases/most cases of abortion declined by 5% from 1996, from 60% to 55%. What caused that? The second question: what do the numbers look like when you separate supporters of 'all and most' cases of abortion? Do most Americans believe in some sort of restrictions? Do you favor abortion with restrictions or no restrictions?
One of the things I detest in our public conversation is the rise of activists (both left and right) to sway public opinion by demonizing the opposition and 'victimizing' those who we agree with. It is a dishonest conversation on both sides.
You parsed Huckabee's statement against murder, by stating " In fact, even when deploring violence, opponents equate it with the practice of abortion." Um, yes they think abortion is murder which is why they've protested for the last 41 years. "Millions of dead babies versus “people attacking” a clinic? Which sounds like the greater evil to you?" The point is that he is EQUATING the two, not sending some secret code.
With regards to the PEW research study that most Americans support abortion, I took a look at that and actually it initiated a couple of questions/observation. The number supporting all cases/most cases of abortion declined by 5% from 1996, from 60% to 55%. What caused that? The second question: what do the numbers look like when you separate supporters of 'all and most' cases of abortion? Do most Americans believe in some sort of restrictions? Do you favor abortion with restrictions or no restrictions?
5
It's hate speech, pure and simple and mainly about imposing their religious views (not even based in the Bible) on others. Like all extremist religious views, it's alot about controlling women. The separate of church and state has never been more important and never more threatened. Please, no so-called Sharia Law and so-called No Christian Law either!
13
I condemn the violence that occurred at the Planned Parenthood Clinic in Colorado Springs, but I often wonder how pro-choice advocates can condemn violence while at the same time defending the violence of abortion. They label people who speak out against abortion as "extremists", yet ignore the obvious extremism of killing unborn human beings by the millions. Whether you call it "choice" or "Women's health" or "reproductive rights", if you're honest with yourself you can't deny that dismembering fetuses is a pretty violent act.
5
Another case of liberal logic gone awry. Instead of placing the blame for the violence on Planned Parenthood's practice of selling baby parts we blame the people who actually exposed the practice. Has the NYT ever heard of whistle-blower laws in government and business?
4
Virtually all of the violence by ideologues in this country comes from the right. Wonder why.
15
I would like to hear the Catholic church's response to this. The silence is
deafening!
deafening!
6
Sounds like the manner in which "politically incorrect" speech is treated by progressive young people on college campuses.
1
No biased journalism here... I could care less about abortion, it is probably better that those kids aren't brought into an unloving environment.
However, "purport to show that PP sells fetal tissue for profit" I think it was pretty clear that PP does sell aborted fetus parts. There is nothing fake or "purported" about it.
I also did not see anything "inciteful" in these videos. There was no "call-to arms" to the pro-life crowd. It was merely a raw showing of what PP is doing, as told by PP employees themselves.
Plus, to use just one utterance of "no more baby parts" is deceptive. The police have not revealed a motive, only that he babbled on about a wide variety of stuff, the sign of a deranged person. He babbled against obama and the republicans as well, many anti-government musings. He is far from a "right-wing" antagonist. He appears to hate everything.
In addition, the shootings did not originate at the PP building, he ran into there after initiating the shootings. So the whole concept of him coming to shoot up a PP has not yet been proven. In fact, no one yet knows why he did what he did.
The whole "transgender" issue is also a fallacious claim on your part. This stems from him marking "woman" in his voting records; again, no one knows why. Does he identify as a female? Was it a mistake? No one knows yet.
You are deliberately misleading to promote your agenda, and these unsubstantiated allegations do nothing to further your cause.
However, "purport to show that PP sells fetal tissue for profit" I think it was pretty clear that PP does sell aborted fetus parts. There is nothing fake or "purported" about it.
I also did not see anything "inciteful" in these videos. There was no "call-to arms" to the pro-life crowd. It was merely a raw showing of what PP is doing, as told by PP employees themselves.
Plus, to use just one utterance of "no more baby parts" is deceptive. The police have not revealed a motive, only that he babbled on about a wide variety of stuff, the sign of a deranged person. He babbled against obama and the republicans as well, many anti-government musings. He is far from a "right-wing" antagonist. He appears to hate everything.
In addition, the shootings did not originate at the PP building, he ran into there after initiating the shootings. So the whole concept of him coming to shoot up a PP has not yet been proven. In fact, no one yet knows why he did what he did.
The whole "transgender" issue is also a fallacious claim on your part. This stems from him marking "woman" in his voting records; again, no one knows why. Does he identify as a female? Was it a mistake? No one knows yet.
You are deliberately misleading to promote your agenda, and these unsubstantiated allegations do nothing to further your cause.
6
This is yet another Frankenstein the Republicans have created in an misguided effort to remain relevant. Example A is anti-immigrant speech. We won't know until after the election what kind of America we are.
6
If this were any other medical procedure or medical clinics, all this fuss would not be tolerated. The anti-abortion crown is getting something of a free pass, and they are certainly using it.
Meanwhile, the people who are providing a safe, legal procedure to voluntary clients are being harassed, threatened, sometimes even killed, and the anti crown doesn't even acknowledge their own complicity. They own what happened in Colorado, even if they didn't personally do it.
Meanwhile, the people who are providing a safe, legal procedure to voluntary clients are being harassed, threatened, sometimes even killed, and the anti crown doesn't even acknowledge their own complicity. They own what happened in Colorado, even if they didn't personally do it.
4
one of the great crimes of the bush administration (and continued by the Obama administration) is to use the term terrorrism todiscuss any violent activity that we don't approve of (ie. Iraqis trying to end an american occupation became terrorists.) since the term has become so malleable it is not surprising that it is used often incorrectly, and avoided incorrectly as well. Americans should know that virtually all terrorist activities in this country are committed by white christian men. But they can only know that if the media chooses to report it a such.
4
Women have been aborting their unborn for thousands of years - long before Jesus and long after Jesus. Hyperventilating, mentally unbalanced white males assume they alone are qualified to bend women's actions to their own pious Christian agenda. But all that concern for the unborn magically (and hypocritically) evaporates at the moment of birth, when the heavy lifting has to start in raising a child by a woman who never wanted to give birth and probably lacks the financial and emotional resources to undertake such a decades-long effort. Have these anti-abortionists ever taken in an unwanted child? Or is talking the talk enough in their narrow worldview without ever walking the walk?
10
The man who carried out this attach is clearly unhinged. Stop turning every opportunity into a pro-abortion tirade and crusade. It is tired and boring.
4
I heard somewhere someone referred to unwanted children born in the world as "feral children". It disgusted me but then thought about it and believe if all these anti abortionists would spend there time and money investing in these children's future and ensuring a healthy/loving home for them to grow and become productive citizens. But they don't! These children usually are deemed to a life of poverty and injustice by these same men who love the fetus and hate the child. These men disgust me more, hypocrisy!
4
As a pro life member, I find the killings of innocent people at abortion clinics atrocious and must stop. My pro life members strongly agree with me and there is no excuse for these atrocities under any circumstances. This is not representative of the pro-life group In which I belong. We condemn this behavior and our group does not represent these deranged and vile people.
5
When a reporter asked Ted Cruz if the remarks Robert Dear allegedly make about "baby parts" identified him as an right-wing conservative, Ted Cruz said, "Well, it's also been reported that he was registered as an independent and a woman and transgendered leftist activist, if that's what he is." Crus was referring to a Colorado Springs Gazette article that revealed that Dear appears on the voting rolls as a woman with no part affiliation. He was commenting on the unreliability of "breaking news" press reports.
2
Anti-abortion activists claim to follow Christ who asked his followers to forswear violence, forgive, redeem, and serve. Instead, their actions mimic those of religious sects that aim to prevent deviant behavior by fear of violence, severe isolation of an entire gender, ostracizing sinners, and other paranoid means.
8
Thanks for this article, in light of these events, it warmed my heart to read it.
Truly, seen from here (France), the leeway given to pro-life activists in the US is just mind boggling. They never seem to be properly investigated in the same way as other, repeatedly violent activist groups are. Of course, the fact that most members are white and Christian must surely help in that; as the author puts it, if someone in that demographic does something illegal, then surely (s)he must be a crazy (whatever that is)...
Truly, seen from here (France), the leeway given to pro-life activists in the US is just mind boggling. They never seem to be properly investigated in the same way as other, repeatedly violent activist groups are. Of course, the fact that most members are white and Christian must surely help in that; as the author puts it, if someone in that demographic does something illegal, then surely (s)he must be a crazy (whatever that is)...
8
"Do we want to live in a country where extremists use violence"
Too late, we are and have been there for many years. The legalized managers of the terrorists groups is the NRA, endorsed by a passive Congress and legalized by the misnomered supreme court, which declared that the terrorists are a well-regulated militia as required by the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution. The individual American terrorists slaughter 33,000-plus Americans each year with many more wounded. If American continues to be blind to their own terrorists, how will they ever find non-citizen terrorist and take preemptive action. What could be worse? Americans refuse to fight back and turn their bought and paid for Congress out of office. What a pathetic lot!
Too late, we are and have been there for many years. The legalized managers of the terrorists groups is the NRA, endorsed by a passive Congress and legalized by the misnomered supreme court, which declared that the terrorists are a well-regulated militia as required by the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution. The individual American terrorists slaughter 33,000-plus Americans each year with many more wounded. If American continues to be blind to their own terrorists, how will they ever find non-citizen terrorist and take preemptive action. What could be worse? Americans refuse to fight back and turn their bought and paid for Congress out of office. What a pathetic lot!
11
In the past we castigated presidential candidates for even the slightest transgressions, including "lusting in their hearts." Now the media, and by extension, the electorate seems to accept candidates who proudly and publicly not only accept funds from propagandizing hate groups, but tout their lines when violence and murder ensue ... whether its lunatics calling for gay death camps or religious nuts calling for the murder of doctors. Where is the hue and cry against such people a Cruz and Fiorina? Why isn't their unsuitability for the highest office in the land plastered all over the front pages of every paper and running along every news crawl?
14
For those of you that don't think abortion providers live in fear, and work under completely stressed conditions, listen to Dr Dr. Diane Horvath-Cosper who was interviewed for NPR's All Things Considered the other day. http://www.npr.org/2015/11/30/457907185/abortion-providers-raise-securit...
Although you may distain abortions, as is your right, it is a legal procedure and these doctors are performing a service to the women who choose to have an abortion, for whatever reason. There is no reason an abortion provider, should have to work under these conditions, living with harassment and fear. Dr Horvath's home address and a picture of her and her 18 month child were posted on line in anti-abortion sites. Is that moral? Abortion providers have quit their practices because of intimidation. This is terrorism, plain as day.
You don't think abortion is moral--don't have one. But stop telling women that you don't know, and have no idea of their circumstances that your opinion is the only one that counts. It may be not be right for you, but it is for them. Respect--seems to be missing from the most religious out there.
Although you may distain abortions, as is your right, it is a legal procedure and these doctors are performing a service to the women who choose to have an abortion, for whatever reason. There is no reason an abortion provider, should have to work under these conditions, living with harassment and fear. Dr Horvath's home address and a picture of her and her 18 month child were posted on line in anti-abortion sites. Is that moral? Abortion providers have quit their practices because of intimidation. This is terrorism, plain as day.
You don't think abortion is moral--don't have one. But stop telling women that you don't know, and have no idea of their circumstances that your opinion is the only one that counts. It may be not be right for you, but it is for them. Respect--seems to be missing from the most religious out there.
25
So free speech, and passionate dissent is to be stifled to satisfy the left? Thinking people committed to freedom and justice reject this argument, just as they reject the notion that Islam and terrorism are linked. The parallels to the anti-slavery movement are uncanny, whether the author likes it or not - a contentious Supreme Court decision (Dred Scott / Roe v Wade), Federal laws that conscript objectors against their will into supporting an agenda they consider deeply immoral (the Fugitive Slave Law / taxpayer funding for Planned Parenthood (and please, money is fungible, don't insult our intelligence with the myth that 'no taxpayer money goes to abortions) and now, as then, a concerted effort to shut down dissent with the claim that to do otherwise is to incite violence. It's deja vu all over again...
3
I understand the arguments pro and con abortion (I am a physician.) The argument we rarely hear, and the one which is the most important, is the one that goes on in the prospective mother's head. The rest of us have no right to an opinion and we should keep our mouths shut. This includes the columnists and commentors in this website.
20
I'm ready for the 2016 election to bounce out these backward GOP candidates. This election is where we can finally get back our Congress. Accountability is not the GOP's motto, so of course they won't say that their hate rhetoric has caused this and many other problems. When over population becomes a problem along with famine the GOP will take a quote from the religious right and say God is punishing the poor for having too many babies. Roe vs. Wade is the law of the land, of course, that means nothing to the GOP nor to the nutters. Hey, I guess that means the GOP and the nutters have the same level of mental problems.
10
"Every single muslim on earth is supposed to condemn Jihad on a daily basis."
Just one would suffice.
How can the author denounce GOP hyperbolic partisan rhetoric while clinging to an exceedingly weak liberal stance, that islam is a peaceful religion and that there is no moral duty to speak out against radicalized factions?
This Dem. muslim position reminds me of the ridiculous GOP stance on guns. Both ridiculous and in stark contrast to reality.
Just one would suffice.
How can the author denounce GOP hyperbolic partisan rhetoric while clinging to an exceedingly weak liberal stance, that islam is a peaceful religion and that there is no moral duty to speak out against radicalized factions?
This Dem. muslim position reminds me of the ridiculous GOP stance on guns. Both ridiculous and in stark contrast to reality.
2
This is a mean spirited argument that is only meant to punish the women, the men most always "walk away". If you truly wish to lessen abortion, please make birth control available to all who wish it. Including the "religious" companies who wish not to pay for birth control, who are imposing their convictions on others.
The GOP has successfully destroyed both access to birth control and abortion for too many women. We need to assure that birth control and abortion should always be a viable option for all women
The GOP has successfully destroyed both access to birth control and abortion for too many women. We need to assure that birth control and abortion should always be a viable option for all women
9
It may not be your opinion, but large numbers of your fellow Americans pray daily for an end to the infanticide commonly called, " women's reproductive heathcare "or abortion on demand. The unborn child has too few willing to defend it by legal means. Rightwing Politicians Love Abortion so they can trot it out for elections and pretend they are against the butchery they use to get votes. When George W. Bush had a republican controlled Congress the right-wingers managed to do nothing to put an end to this barbaric bloodletting. Fortunately very few are deranged enough to think God would condone the murder of Abortionists and their factory staff, but it is understandable when one realizes the carnage our people and nation are guilty of after the wholesale slaughter of so many millions of God's most innocent children. Now would be the time to remember what the Holy Scriptures teach us, that we reap what we sow. God Help America.
3
At least lately we are hearing more and more voices calling for these acts to be considered as terrorism and the bombers and murderers as terrorists.
The republican party has been very vocal about its supposed opposition to abortion, yet when the party was in complete control of the government from 2002 to 2006 not one national bill to outlaw abortions was brought to the table. The last 5 years republicans have controlled the House and now the Senate, and not one bill has been brought up for a vote.
Republicans don't want to see abortion made illegal because that takes away the reliable anti abortion zealotry from their call to get out the votes of their ill-informed base.
I hope that after the smack down they are going to get at the polls next year, they will lower the temperature on their rhetoric and maybe some of the lunatics will stay home from the terrorist activities.
The republican party has been very vocal about its supposed opposition to abortion, yet when the party was in complete control of the government from 2002 to 2006 not one national bill to outlaw abortions was brought to the table. The last 5 years republicans have controlled the House and now the Senate, and not one bill has been brought up for a vote.
Republicans don't want to see abortion made illegal because that takes away the reliable anti abortion zealotry from their call to get out the votes of their ill-informed base.
I hope that after the smack down they are going to get at the polls next year, they will lower the temperature on their rhetoric and maybe some of the lunatics will stay home from the terrorist activities.
6
Once again, we are largely talking about poor women of reproductive age. Abortion in America, for good or ill, has been historically "ghettoized" as a service provided by specialized, free-standing private clinics, most notably Planned Parenthood. This has enabled the remainder of our health care delivery system (hospitals, clinics, and physicians) to stand above the fray, unaffected by the ugly political realities. How comfortable for them. No protesters, no death threats, no right-wing politicians vowing to cut their funding.
Meanwhile, the principled doctors willing to stand up for poor women in need live in daily fear of being MURDERED. This article documents the daily fear and violence that staff at Planned Parenthood clinics endure. Don't kid yourself that these people are unaware they are wearing targets on their backs.
America has failed to defend these women against the Christian Taliban, and failed to defend these battle-weary health care workers. The United States Supreme Court, the United States Department of Justice, and the United States Congress, just to name a few, have left these people on their own in the face of unrelenting violence. People of principle who should be speaking out are too cowardly to do so.
Meanwhile, the principled doctors willing to stand up for poor women in need live in daily fear of being MURDERED. This article documents the daily fear and violence that staff at Planned Parenthood clinics endure. Don't kid yourself that these people are unaware they are wearing targets on their backs.
America has failed to defend these women against the Christian Taliban, and failed to defend these battle-weary health care workers. The United States Supreme Court, the United States Department of Justice, and the United States Congress, just to name a few, have left these people on their own in the face of unrelenting violence. People of principle who should be speaking out are too cowardly to do so.
8
The GOP got its chops demonizing gay people. Since the 1970s they have consistently portrayed law-abiding American citizens as demons and criminals. This has been rather successful for them. For instance Mike Huckabee attended a conference in Iowa hosted by Kevin Swanson who has called for the death penalty for gay people. Huckabee has not suffered in the polls for this so it is no surprise that that the GOP promotes similarly murderous rhetoric about Planned Parenthood and other abortion providers. Like with Trump, their statements are largely detached from reality. But again, this resonates with the GOP base. A fact that should be frightening to most Americans.
If the GOP weren't a major political party it would be listed as a hate group.
If the GOP weren't a major political party it would be listed as a hate group.
5
Although I agree with the facts and sentiments Ms. Pollit expresses, and enjoy her rhetoric, I think that the anger she expresses, like that of the abortion opponents, does great harm. We live in angry times, and the free and open expression of rage has bad effects. It contributes to the atmosphere of rage that empowers people like Mr. Dear, and it incites others to greater rage, even those who agree, because anger is contagious. Angry rhetoric makes persuasion impossible, conveys disrespect for others, and destroys any possibility of discovering creative solutions. I do not blame Ms. Pollit for her anger, which I share. But in its comment sections the Times edits out angry comments--some of which I have authored myself--and I think it should do the same with its op ed section.
2
We have freedom of speech but no freedom is absolute and every freedom entails responsibilities. People who engage in hate speech and hyperbolic rhetoric abuse responsibilities entailed by freedom of speech. Thanks to stochastic (or chaotic) terrorism, public figures with access to the media megaphone don't need any terrorist organization to carry out their agendas. They know that if they shout incendiary slogans loud enough and long enough, some "lone wolf" will pick up a weapon and take action for them. We've seen this play out over and over again with politics of abortion and Planned Parenthood, but also with politics of race and any assembly of African Americans-- their churches, their neighborhoods, their public assembly for protests. Abdication of responsibility for freedom of speech turns speech into a tool for terrorism. What is most alarming is that terrorist speech has now become a robust thread in our public discourse, insuring ever more incidents of stochastic terrorism. There is no antidote for the poison.
6
The abortion debate would end very quickly if men had some skin in the game. As it is, the woman bears the entire burden of an unwanted pregnancy. But what if a law required the father to pay the costs of that child … from conception through college. Every penny. Republicans would change their tune on abortion so fast it would make your head spin.
7
If anti-abortionists were willing to adopt unwanted children, the problem would be solved. Having an abortion is not something a woman enjoys. Most abortion decisions are heart-wrenching. Unwanted children rarely have good lives. Many wind up in foster care. Instead of spending time and money on fighting abortion, adopt a child, ease the burden of the State to support the child. Do something helpful instead of using violence to promote your belief.
2
If there needs to be any proof of the author's thesis that anti-abortion fanatics provoke and encourage murder, just look at some of the comments on this board. They explicitly make a moral equivalence between murder of people at clinics and abortion. In fact, they state that the abortions are the far greater crime. They also minimize and justify murder as a proportionate response to abortion.
4
The entire Republican Party, but especially Carly Fiorina with her harping on the misleading video showing "body parts" referred to by killer, are unindicted co-conspirators in the murders at the Colorado Planned Parenthood clinic. And, when Ted Cruz openly boasts of his endorsement by the very groups that advocate murdering abortion providers, we have reached a point where the political process has gone-well beyond casting aside political correctness to endorsing criminal violence and assassination of those whose views you oppose. They may call themselves Republicans, but I call them accomplices to murder.
7
Social and religious pressures keep women silent. Then the extremists sense the void and fill it with their vitriol and violence. I think many women (not unlike myself) benefit from the "herd immunity" of the activist support of legal reproductive services. My anti-abortion relatives have all either used birth control (the Pill and others), had their tubes tied, or had a hysterectomy. But they see their use of their legal rights as unrelated to abortion rights. But when a hospital can let a woman die (google the story of an Indian woman who died due to a miscarriage in Ireland) because of the fear of the law, we are all at risk of arbitrary and nonsensical politically-driven medicine.
8
This whole topic should be debated in front of America- an actual debate, taken out of the hands of those with personal religious fundamentalist views that depend on controlling the conversation and the distortions in fact that come from that. And taking the conversations away from politicians and phony filmmakers gunning for a buck.
The American public's view has not changed in decades about availability of women's healthcare. What has changed is the dangerous rhetoric used by Limbaugh and the pulpits of fundamentalist churches and the media not questioning these people. Violence was inevitable.
The American public's view has not changed in decades about availability of women's healthcare. What has changed is the dangerous rhetoric used by Limbaugh and the pulpits of fundamentalist churches and the media not questioning these people. Violence was inevitable.
5
It seems to be rather inconsistent to say that anti-abortion beliefs and speech can and do lead to action while, in the very same essay, seemingly dismissing any connection between Islam and jihadi terrorism. The author is 100% right that anti-abortion beliefs have everything to do with this violence (or are at least a big part). It's not a zero sum game. We can be honest and say that beliefs can and do lead to action, no matter what people those beliefs belong to. These days, we are far more likely to see an NYT op-ed speak honestly and openly about the connection between belief and action when it involves christian/right wing beliefs than if it involves islamic beliefs. As soon as we have a situation of the latter, we hear all the same obfuscation from the left as we are now hearing from the right about the former.
1
One in three Americsn women will have an abortion during her lifetime. This statistic will not be reduced by limiting legal, safe abortions.
We must support the use of birth control with effective sex education.
We must support the use of birth control with effective sex education.
9
As director of a PP clinic that provided abortions, I can state that everything in this piece is true. Handling anti choice demonstrators at work and at my home literally made me sick. Here in Grand Rapids, Michigan, I've even heard anti PP propaganda preached from the pulpit. It's disgusting to think that any ordained minister would stoop that low, but it happens. I'm 80 years old now, but I ask myself and others frequently, "When will the anti choice people stop harassing women, and when will the law enforcement employees protect us?"
46
As an abortion rights supporter, I believe that any spokesperson on this issue, including Ms. Pollitt, needs to include in their advocacy -- whether published in a high profile venue such as the NYTimes or even in casual conversation -- a constant reminder that bearing an unwanted child is a 17-year commitment. I would venture that most women who have abortions, as have I, do not have financial support, a partner, or family support to fulfill this obligation.
It is not enough to say that abortion is a legal right. One must always emphasize that the woman's life, at this stage, is more important than that of an embryo. The woman is free to have, as I had, children when she can support them.
The argument for the supremacy of the life of the embryo over that of the mother harkens back to beliefs that women didn't actually have any biological role in bearing children - that they were merely incubi, or carriers of the "father's offspring." Or the laws that maintain that the child is the man's possession and that he "owns" the offspring, that the mother is merely the incidental bearer of the child.
Those beliefs have been abolished, but the sentiments behind them remain.
It is not enough to say that abortion is a legal right. One must always emphasize that the woman's life, at this stage, is more important than that of an embryo. The woman is free to have, as I had, children when she can support them.
The argument for the supremacy of the life of the embryo over that of the mother harkens back to beliefs that women didn't actually have any biological role in bearing children - that they were merely incubi, or carriers of the "father's offspring." Or the laws that maintain that the child is the man's possession and that he "owns" the offspring, that the mother is merely the incidental bearer of the child.
Those beliefs have been abolished, but the sentiments behind them remain.
33
What hypocrisy! 1 in 3 women in the U.S. have abortions. (I, along with many others, did not experience the alleged anxiety and stress because of my abortion; on the contrary, I felt immense relief. Planned Parenthood provides abortions (a small percentage of their services) to women who would otherwise not be able to afford going to their private doctor. This "pro-life" movement is in reality an attempt to control women's freedom. Sickening...
17
One detail often missing in these conversations: one in three American women get an abortion. It is massively practiced and experienced. I'm surprised that Katha Pollit didn't choose to mention this fact. This group isn't a "them" describing a small extremist minority--abortion applies to all of us, if not ourselves then almost definitely our close friends and relatives. Maybe the taboo surrounding the procedure might start to be lifted if the pro-choice side of things (where I'm aligned) could try to own this piece of information. Somehow.
11
Medical schools should expand their offerings of courses that teach abortion. One strong contribution to the public debate is public education: surgeons who know it is easy and safe-- and necessary to the women who ask for it. Pressure should be on the deans of medical schools to add or expand.
Thanks to Katha Pollitt for making the issues of terrorism so clear in a beautifully structured article. I do note that more commentators are using the words "domestic terrorism."
Thanks to Katha Pollitt for making the issues of terrorism so clear in a beautifully structured article. I do note that more commentators are using the words "domestic terrorism."
8
I recently called my two US senators who are from CT and have brains, demanding they get tough on this anti abortion crowd and their supporters, and to start calling them terrorists which is exactly what they are. And the loud mouths how push them along should be charged with inciting violence. This has to stop. The right wing is so angry it is just a matter of time until they want to kill everyone who does not agree with them. One other thing, SCOTUS ruled that abortion clinics can not have a buffer zone, but somehow SCOTUS is allowed to have one. This shows how politicized SCOTUS has become and that is a direct equation to why their decisions are irrelevant. If we label these attacks terrorism maybe we can bring back the buffer zones under some kind of law based on terrorism.
18
Operation Rescue is a terrorist organization, no less and no less effectively than the KKK. There was a time when elected Representatives, sitting in Congress, were also members of the Klan, but that time is over. The same applies to Operation Rescue, and affiliated propaganda operations like the "Center for Medical Progress." Ted Cruz must choose now, and choose publicly, whether he wishes to continue as a U.S. Senator, or continue his relationship with Operation Rescue. He can not have both.
10
Not only is the media not calling violence against abortion providers terrorism, as Ms. Pollitt says, but they are perpetrating the same distortions as the extreme anti-abortionists. Just last week on Meet the Press panelist, Hugh Hewitt, said that "Planned Parenthood sells baby parts," exactly what has been reported that Robert L. Dear said after he was taken into custody for killing three people and wounding nine. This false statement, that in my opinion is an incitement, went unchallenged on Meet the Press. Planned Parenthood does not sell baby parts. They donate fetal tissue for medical research.
13
They do work. Just look at what Joseph Goebbels and Adolph Hitler's actions were able to achieve.
Words from public figures matter.
Words from public figures matter.
10
The anti-abortion groups, which I call "The Fetus People," need to be officially designated as what they are -- terrorist organizations. Some of them claim to be non-violent, but their claims ring hollow. Even the most peaceful among them block the entrances to women's clinics and shout threats and obscenities at those trying to avail themselves of clinic services.
By any reasonable definition of the term, this is terrorism.
By any reasonable definition of the term, this is terrorism.
11
A mad gunman's motives are almost impossible to discern, even if he explicitly states the reason. Why? Because insanity, hurting innocent people, defies rationality. Any "justification" is suspect from the mentally ill.
It's easier to determine motives from the exploiters of fear and ignorance. They are just as bad as the actual madmen. They are proud enablers, amoral scoundrels, like a Joe McCarthy. Granting them political power would be destructive for the nation.
It's easier to determine motives from the exploiters of fear and ignorance. They are just as bad as the actual madmen. They are proud enablers, amoral scoundrels, like a Joe McCarthy. Granting them political power would be destructive for the nation.
4
Thank you. Carly Fiorina and others should be charged with inciting violence.
14
The fundamental question is: what kind of society do we want? We strive for less regulation when it comes to commerce - no matter the ethics. Water shooting from faucets? Coal miners working in dangerous conditions? spewing chemical waste into waterways? buying a company to sell it off for parts laying off thousands? The majority -- including the lawmakers look the other way at these "transgressions" which create real human suffering because it is about the bottom line.
But there is a bottom line in a family too -- what can we afford today, tomorrow and in our retirement years. There is very little social safety net that we offer our citizens -- so it seems sanctimonious and more than a bit caprecious to suddenly get all ethical over zygotes and first term fetuses when the responsibility for them will ultimately fall on the parent.
This has nothing to do with ethics or human life. We can't be a capitalist theocracy and draw the line and say the nine months of gestation are society's to maintain -- but at birth it becomes "personal responsibility." And if this is about sex and punishment what kind of hard-hearted individual thinks punishing a child is in anyway good.
If we want to "outlaw" abortion -- we need to suddenly care about humans from zygote to grave: Universal healthcare, readily available birth control, fair wages, paid family leave, pensions.
Until that time -- women are watching their bottom lines -- just like corporations do. Back off.
But there is a bottom line in a family too -- what can we afford today, tomorrow and in our retirement years. There is very little social safety net that we offer our citizens -- so it seems sanctimonious and more than a bit caprecious to suddenly get all ethical over zygotes and first term fetuses when the responsibility for them will ultimately fall on the parent.
This has nothing to do with ethics or human life. We can't be a capitalist theocracy and draw the line and say the nine months of gestation are society's to maintain -- but at birth it becomes "personal responsibility." And if this is about sex and punishment what kind of hard-hearted individual thinks punishing a child is in anyway good.
If we want to "outlaw" abortion -- we need to suddenly care about humans from zygote to grave: Universal healthcare, readily available birth control, fair wages, paid family leave, pensions.
Until that time -- women are watching their bottom lines -- just like corporations do. Back off.
8
Until the group "Center for Medical Progress" and its like are put on the terrorist watch list this kind of activity will go unchecked. Until Fiorina, Huckabee, Faux News and the like are prosecuted for their actions, this kind of activity will go unchecked. It is time for Homeland Security to man every PP site with enough people to disperse the people harassing the PP staff and clients and to protect the staff and clients from madmen that Fiorina, Huckabee and Faux New unleash upon our country.
14
One of the main problems is that Planned Parenthood is always described as abortion clinics. Planned Parenthood also provides healthcare for pregnant women who do not have insurance. By closing these clinics they have closed off care for poor pregnant women, poor women for gynecological care, STD treatment and other female healthcare issues who cannot afford our very expensive healthcare system. These women could die in childbirth or their babies could die or be deformed because of untreated STD's and other gynecological problems. These same people who have such vitriol against Planned Parenthood are the same as those that keep shutting down the government to stop the ACA and cutting budgets to public health clinics.
11
The Constitution affirms (ninth amendment) the existence of protected rights that are not enumerated: surely these might include freedom from constant harassment, relief from intimidation, the right to a bit of silence now and then from a constant repetition of a single theme in another's free speech.
The test? Consider they staff at a PP facility. Are they enjoying "domestic Tranquility" and "the Blessings of Liberty"? If not, then perhaps there needs to be a different balance between "Freedom of Speech" and a sort of Freedom "to disagree and to talk about something else for a change."
The test? Consider they staff at a PP facility. Are they enjoying "domestic Tranquility" and "the Blessings of Liberty"? If not, then perhaps there needs to be a different balance between "Freedom of Speech" and a sort of Freedom "to disagree and to talk about something else for a change."
7
Anti-abortion violence in the United States has killed 11 people since 1993, including the recent Colorado Springs attack, but most of the murders occurred two decades ago, and the death toll is low compared to murders inspired by other social issues and political debates. Debate over U.S. social and political issue has always inspired violence. Antislavery rhetoric cost more than 600,000 lives in the 1860s, starting with John Brown’s terrorist attack against pro-slavery advocates in Pottawatomie, Kansas, and culminating with the Civil War, but this doesn’t mean abolitionists were wrong to speak out about the horrors of slavery. During the first part of the 20th century, socialist and anarchist rhetoric inspired tremendous violence. In 1920, horse-drawn wagon filled with explosives was detonated in front of the J. P. Morgan bank on Wall Street, killing 38 and wounding 143, but this didn’t mean prairie populists were wrong to speak out against the machinations of the big banks. The Rodney King Riot of 1992 left 53 people dead and over 2,000 people were injured, but this did mean the news media was wrong to show the Rodney King video or that African American leaders were wrong to condemn police brutality. In a May 2014 speech, FBI Director John Lewis said, “In recent years, the Animal Liberation Front and the Earth Liberation Front have become the most active criminal extremist elements in the United States.”
3
Deeply disturbing to me that more than 50 years after Roe v Wade we are still seeing sleazy politicians wade into the muck-raking mire of making this an 'issue'.
The GOP has absolutely no shame, no credibility, and no integrity.
They are all headed for the metaphorical underworld.
Oh, wait, they've already arrived.
Goebbels is smiling at them from the grave.
The GOP has absolutely no shame, no credibility, and no integrity.
They are all headed for the metaphorical underworld.
Oh, wait, they've already arrived.
Goebbels is smiling at them from the grave.
10
So Troy Newman of the Center for Medical Progress (gee, where is the Freedom label?) "has called for the execution of abortion providers." Sort of like having sex to promote virginity.
6
The connection between the anti-choice terrorists and groups such as ISIS is perfectly clear: hatred of freedom/equality for women. Both terrorist camps are overwhelmingly dominated by men who cannot abide choice in women whether it be choosing to carry a fetus to term or choosing a mate. Such men insist on imposing their own choices on all women. For anyone out there wondering what drives so many men to join ISIS and similar groups, just think about women and what so many men are willing to do to keep them under control. Isn't that what we're seeing here with men such as Cruz and Dear?
12
Are there any videos online of anti-abortion protestors? Has each person in the videos been identified? Are any of them on welfare, or how do they manage to have time to parade outside PP clinics & pay their bills? How many of them donate time & money to help & otherwise support, families? They get away with this behaviour because they believe they are anonymous. Why haven't they been sued for assault by women attending PP or reasons other than abortion?
Oh and BTW, how did Dear manage to kill a police officer. Surely the officer was armed. I thought if everyone had a gun these sort of crimes couldn't happen.
Oh and BTW, how did Dear manage to kill a police officer. Surely the officer was armed. I thought if everyone had a gun these sort of crimes couldn't happen.
12
When the angry agitators outside abortion clinics performing constitutionally-protected service sound pretty much the same as their preferred presidential candidates, we should worry about the survival of constitutional democracy in our Republic.
Apparently we don’t yet know if the target of this mass shooting was indeed Planned Parenthood (wink-wink). Therefore we can’t possibly know if the entire GOP apparatus, which has made anti-Planned Parenthood demonization a central core of its bogeyman crusade, has innocent blood on its hands.
That a Planned Parenthood facility was singled out for the Colorado Springs mayhem and that the alleged gunman, putatively a "transgendered leftist activist," said “no more baby parts” upon apprehension, and that such language comes directly from the GOP playbook of agitprop might offer a clue.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Apparently we don’t yet know if the target of this mass shooting was indeed Planned Parenthood (wink-wink). Therefore we can’t possibly know if the entire GOP apparatus, which has made anti-Planned Parenthood demonization a central core of its bogeyman crusade, has innocent blood on its hands.
That a Planned Parenthood facility was singled out for the Colorado Springs mayhem and that the alleged gunman, putatively a "transgendered leftist activist," said “no more baby parts” upon apprehension, and that such language comes directly from the GOP playbook of agitprop might offer a clue.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
8
There is a very good reason why our Founding Fathers emphasized separation of church and state and the practice of freedom of religion. A number of them came over from Europe fleeing persecution because of their religious beliefs. Killings and indeed wars based on religious differences are a sad part of history throughout the world. Those who wish to impose their religious beliefs regarding the termination of pregnancies seek to draw us into this type of secular violence. We should view this for what it is, a naked exercise of force and power intended to assert their religious beliefs on everyone, and take whatever action is needed to preserve the rights we have fought for over the past 250 years.
10
I've yet to see one of these terrorists strap explosives on their bodies and walk into a clinic. That is about the only difference between them, and the other terrorists who have the public in a panic. They don't have the courage of their convictions. They are cowards. They are certainly not Christians.
Politicians and professional agitators in the media should be charged as accessories to terrorist crimes. That is what the Congressional committee, the FBI, and the Homeland Security appratus should be investigating and prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law.
Politicians and professional agitators in the media should be charged as accessories to terrorist crimes. That is what the Congressional committee, the FBI, and the Homeland Security appratus should be investigating and prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law.
8
Hopefully the times isn't advocating limiting free speech?
2
Doesn't the right to harass women going to a clinic and the right to arm oneself to the teeth prove that when it comes to human rights, America wrote the book?
1
The entire Republican Party, but especially Carly Fiorina with her harping on the misleading video showing "body parts" referred to by killer, are unindicted co-conspirators in the murders at the Colorado Planned Parenthood clinic. And, when Ted Cruz openly boasts of his endorsement by the very groups that advocate murdering abortion providers, we have reached a point where the political process as gone-well beyond casting aside political correctness to endorsing criminal violence and assassination of those whose views you oppose. They may call themselves Republicans, but I call them accomplices to murder.
6
Katha Pollit is absolutely correct that this is domestic terrorism and should be so named loudly. Where are the voices, our representatives, on this? The law of the land states when an unborn fetus is the business of the state or NOT. If we are talking about religious freedom, then fine to oppose abortion altogether on those grounds or any other and to protest but to take matters into one own's hand and kill in the process?
But again and too we are talking about guns and violence aren't we? The response by the loudest on this hijacked interpretation of the second amendment is "mental illness" and we need more guns, military ones at that. Add this tragedy to that discussion.
But folks, you have to inform yourselves and vote.
But again and too we are talking about guns and violence aren't we? The response by the loudest on this hijacked interpretation of the second amendment is "mental illness" and we need more guns, military ones at that. Add this tragedy to that discussion.
But folks, you have to inform yourselves and vote.
4
Let me guess: outlaw the offending speech. Right?
I am in favor of abortion rights but there is nothing that would concince me that sppech needs to be controlled by the government any more than it already is.
Slippery slops are not a logical fallacy, they exist and once you start chipping away it will not end. Look, for example, at the "monsters" (as Bill Maher calls them) on our college campus'. Boy, they believe that they know what speech is best for the rest of us.
At the risk of Godwinning the conversation, please reflect on Germany ca. 1938.
I am in favor of abortion rights but there is nothing that would concince me that sppech needs to be controlled by the government any more than it already is.
Slippery slops are not a logical fallacy, they exist and once you start chipping away it will not end. Look, for example, at the "monsters" (as Bill Maher calls them) on our college campus'. Boy, they believe that they know what speech is best for the rest of us.
At the risk of Godwinning the conversation, please reflect on Germany ca. 1938.
4
The anti-abortion activists fit the very definition of domestic terrorists. The more unhinged commit acts of violence egged on by those who spew hate speech and rhetoric intended to incite, including the rhetoric of some right wing politicians. In their hearts and minds, these terrorists (lets call them what they are) feel violence is justified and therefore meets their God's approval. Rachael Maddow did a story on this several years ago in which she identified how many acts of violence had occurred against people and property by anti-abortion activists - murders, injuries, emotional trauma, and property destruction. People tend to view the the more heinous acts as isolated incidences, but they're not, and in fact are predictable. No doubt the activists are secretly cheering on those who are willing to commit acts of violence. Why has nothing been done to better protect abortion clinics? Why does the media not cover this topic?
3
Have you ever viewed the Washington March of Life in January? The close to one million pro lifers are very peaceful and respectable. It was the pro abortion folks who were arrested for disorderly conduct. Violence is contrary to what true pro life people believe and practice. Now I want the Times to interview a prominent pro-life advocate and let them tell you true facts about our organization. There are many to choose from any any one of them would be delighted to oblige. Can you do this for us.
3
To answer the question, why are we still fighting this over 40 years after Roe v. Wade, I think we need to also call women to task for letting the ball drop for the past 20 years. One dirty little secret that women on the Left don't want to admit is that they have been more interested in advancing fertility treatments than advancing the human rights of their own daughters, rights which include affordable and safe access to abortion. I hope there will be a backlash of young women against their mothers for not ensuring this important human right for future generations.
Let's also keep in mind that the intimidation and incendiary rhetoric also serves another purpose: distraction. Republicans purposely keep their constituent's eyes on the bouncing balls of abortion and guns to distract away from their actions to serve their wealthy patrons, to our detriment: dismantle Social Security and Medicare, increase the privatization of schools and prisons, further increase income and tax inequality and enact self-interested legislation, to mention but a few.
10
Considering how many millions of people are strongly opposed to abortion and consider it to be the killing of innocent human life, the incidence of violence against the providers of abortion services is quite small. When it does happen it is usually perpetrated by an irrational and disturbed person like Mr. Dear. To expect opponents of abortion to keep quiet about the subject is unrealistic
3
Dear is an excellent poster boy for the anti-abortion movement.
For years, the anti-abortion movement has used the theme of "abortion is murder" to organize political support for further restrictions on that right. It plays well to fundamentalist and borderline personalities who cannot examine that premise rationally. For others, that claim is just a stray bit of pep rally hyperbole that isn't worth examining.
Carly Fiorina sought a surge in the polls by making wildly untrue claims about the Planned Parenthood videos. It allowed her to play the part of a deeply morally offended person. So she shares responsibility for people who are pushed over the edge by her, and others', words.
For years, the anti-abortion movement has used the theme of "abortion is murder" to organize political support for further restrictions on that right. It plays well to fundamentalist and borderline personalities who cannot examine that premise rationally. For others, that claim is just a stray bit of pep rally hyperbole that isn't worth examining.
Carly Fiorina sought a surge in the polls by making wildly untrue claims about the Planned Parenthood videos. It allowed her to play the part of a deeply morally offended person. So she shares responsibility for people who are pushed over the edge by her, and others', words.
7
Two of the biggest problems that plague and will continue to plague America are stupidity and religiosity as viewed through a lens of stupidity. If you're against abortion, don't have one, if you're a woman. If you're against abortion, do not impregnate a woman, if you're a man. That solves the anti-abortion issue right there. Beyond that, despite appearances to the contrary, every woman has a LEGAL RIGHT to abortion in this country. To those who lack education, depth or insight, the political subterfuge surrounding abortion can give the notion that it is illegal. It is not. Moreover, over 90% of abortions are performed at ten weeks into pregnancy or less. At this point, the fetus is the size of a grape. There are no body parts.
If religious institutions want to remain tax free they need to discontinue political discourse as to changing laws ratified by the supreme court. If religious institutions want to continue to recruit from the populace, they need to pull themselves and their reputations out of the gutter of blame and castigation of all things female. Finally, if the republican party wants to be relevant in the next twenty-five years, they need to ratchet their level of discourse up to the level of eighth grade education. After that, perhaps they can get some training in basic etiquette. It's a lesson most in our country could benefit from as well.
If religious institutions want to remain tax free they need to discontinue political discourse as to changing laws ratified by the supreme court. If religious institutions want to continue to recruit from the populace, they need to pull themselves and their reputations out of the gutter of blame and castigation of all things female. Finally, if the republican party wants to be relevant in the next twenty-five years, they need to ratchet their level of discourse up to the level of eighth grade education. After that, perhaps they can get some training in basic etiquette. It's a lesson most in our country could benefit from as well.
7
If the anti-choice people, politicians included, do not think that speech matters, then why do they picket the clinics and try to influence the women seeking services? Why do the politicians make speeches trying to influence voters? If speech doesn't matter then they wouldn't buy air time on TV, etc. They just don't want us to think that speech matters when it comes to accountability for inciting violence. Hypocrites.
5
The protesters don't realize how lucky they are. They target "leftist liberals" and women with a high level of impulse control and respect for the system and law.
Given the availability of guns and hate diatribes online, no equivalent to the PP heckling GOP-inspired mob members has opened up with an automatic weapon and leveled an entire crowd of abortion protesters psychologically battering women seeking healthcare.
I would love to see a class action for psychological abuse leveled at the violent verbal attacks.
Given the availability of guns and hate diatribes online, no equivalent to the PP heckling GOP-inspired mob members has opened up with an automatic weapon and leveled an entire crowd of abortion protesters psychologically battering women seeking healthcare.
I would love to see a class action for psychological abuse leveled at the violent verbal attacks.
4
I think a big problem is that people talking on public issues approach things like a caricature of a lawyer in the American legal system. They advocate for their point of view using whatever rhetorical means might work. They assume the other side will do the same thing. Reasonable people listen and sort things out. The problem is that not all listeners are reasonable people who are in on the game. What an anti-abortion activist calls people working at Planned Parenthood 'murderers' they take those words literally. If you really believe that there is a serial murderer in your town, killing thousands of babies over time and no one steps in you might feel compelled to do something to stop it.
So I believe that the words used by anti-abortion activists are certainly cause for the attacks on Planned Parenthood. While it might hurt the cause to step back from the inflammatory speech and instead use a more literal vocabulary it would be the ethical thing to do.
So I believe that the words used by anti-abortion activists are certainly cause for the attacks on Planned Parenthood. While it might hurt the cause to step back from the inflammatory speech and instead use a more literal vocabulary it would be the ethical thing to do.
2
The paradox lies in how difficult they're trying to make access to contraception. No one looks forward to having an abortion. Rather than fighting it, wouldn't it make more sense to make the procedure unnecessary?
3
As always the so-called pro-life activists are only pro the lives of those who agree with them and who do not take welfare, need medicaid etc. etc. In short as soon as the baby is born and happens to be a minority in need of some state and/federal assistance this baby becomes a sponging low life, a lazy good for nothing, who when shot by say the police was only asking for it. These folks are not pro-life they are solely pro their life style which they are quite happy to enforce with guns and violence when need be.
1
For the saftey of girls & women, might we consider separating abortion from the Planned Parenthood clinics which would then be simply providing medical services and information to those in need and have abortions performed within the general health community where most abortions are performed? Ideas. anyone? Philip & Nancy Currier.
2
Equating an abortion with infanticide is a dangerous religious delusion. One is entitled to be as crazy as one wants in religion, but not to violate the law in order to impose those delusional rules on others.
Carly Fiorina claims she saw an infant being murdered in a videotape that doesn't exist. She is entitled to be religiously crazy. Having freely choosen to reveal how religiously crazy she is, she adversely affected her ability to be taken seriously.
Carly Fiorina claims she saw an infant being murdered in a videotape that doesn't exist. She is entitled to be religiously crazy. Having freely choosen to reveal how religiously crazy she is, she adversely affected her ability to be taken seriously.
12
This article is the usual liberal attempt to define ANY speech they don't like as "hate speech" in order to stifle it. Never mind that liberals engage in hate speech constantly against their political opponents. Anyway, the whole point of free speech is to allow speech you find noxious or abhorent, not to allow speech you already agree with. This idea of subjectively singling out "hate speech" has been the slippery slope to censorship. Stop.
6
This is "stochastic terrorism" the use of mass communications to invite others to do your bidding while keeping your own hands clean. The clerics do it. The evangelical Christians do it. Political regimes do it.
It is real and it is happening around us.
Another term, a little more 6th grade reading oriented, might be Dog-Whistle politics -- a coded message. Although in this case not much of a code.
It is real and it is happening around us.
Another term, a little more 6th grade reading oriented, might be Dog-Whistle politics -- a coded message. Although in this case not much of a code.
11
I have been a volunteer escort for a PA clinic for upwards of 8 years. The bullying and violent rhetoric I hear on Saturday mornings has increased. When I dared write a letter to the editor of the local paper, regarding the ACLU, a comment was immediately posted that I stand outside a clinic and help kell babies.
11
Is there any doubt now that a loosely-associated group of violent, armed extremists has found a welcome home in a major political party? And it is the same party that insists a lie is a lie only if you admit it, and it is the truth if 100 people agree.
11
"The Toll of Violent Anti-Abortion Speech"
Speech itself is not violent. How about "Hands up don't shoot" the basis of which has been discredited by Eric Holder's Justice Departments report.
We should not stop reporting what actually happens even if there is a chance that a disturbed person somewhere may react violently. We do have a first amendment. How much violence occurred as the result of inflammatory report of police shooting incidences, and related protests? Does that mean it should not be reported?
John
Speech itself is not violent. How about "Hands up don't shoot" the basis of which has been discredited by Eric Holder's Justice Departments report.
We should not stop reporting what actually happens even if there is a chance that a disturbed person somewhere may react violently. We do have a first amendment. How much violence occurred as the result of inflammatory report of police shooting incidences, and related protests? Does that mean it should not be reported?
John
4
Anti-abortion activists who use violent language and behavior to attack Planned Parenthood and legal abortion providers are not "Pro-Life." They are "radical Christian terrorists." Whenever we have occasion to mention them, we should call them what they are.
21
A nation of distracted children is coming to the realization that hate speech really fosters hate and far too often hate crimes. In addition, the kids have finally come to the conclusion that if access to guns were more strictly controlled, there would be less random shootings. But the real insight that marks a clear indication the kids are entering adulthood is their understanding that no matter how a super majority of them feels about a given issue, the people they supposedly elect are going to vote as directed by a tiny minority of special interests. Is real hope and change coming too late for America?
13
There's no doubt -- Fiorina is one of those with blood on her hands. That's why she refuses to acknowledge her part in fomenting violence against Planned Parenthood.
11
The breathtaking double standard of the hard left in this country appears again in this piece. Anti-cop chants ("fry like bacon") have nothing to do with cop-killing, but exposing Planned Parenthood sales of baby parts creates violence? Southern Poverty Law Center calls Family Research Council a "hate group" but bears no responsibility for the 2012 shooting at FRC in Washington, DC?
Let's have a serious, non-faith-based discussion of just when and how political rhetoric inflames violence. It's not as simple as this one-sided presentation from the faithful of the hard left.
Let's have a serious, non-faith-based discussion of just when and how political rhetoric inflames violence. It's not as simple as this one-sided presentation from the faithful of the hard left.
2
Worshipping embryos is something I will never understand. Embryos are fragile and many of them do not make it and grow into a fetus, let alone a baby. Let's care for the lives of the living instead of dwelling on potential life.
14
As I recall, Newt Gingrich in looking back at the 1990's GOP dominated Congress, one regret he has admitted to as Majority Leader, was in helping to create an atmosphere in which conservative radical groups and individuals felt empowered to act out in this country. I think that the poisonous antagonism between the Gingrich Congress and Bill Clinton over Clinton's progressive policies (primarily driven by the GOP as I further recall) was only toned down following the horrific Oklahoma City Bombing by the unhinged Timothy McVeigh. It appears to me that the Tea Party GOP currently seems to be trying to employ the same scorched earth rhetoric that the Gingrich Congress tried to use in the 1990's, in the hopes that if they scream loud enough and with enough fire power that the public will turn against another progressive government-In this case the Administration of President Obama. One can only pray that 20 years hence, in their memoirs, a Paul Ryan or a Donald Trump or a Ted Cruz will not similarly regret having not attempted to tone down their paranoid and confrontational rhetoric-(While they still could).
4
If we assume before all the facts are available that this was a targeting of an abortion clinic (and I believe it was), then in the history of the Republic, there have been a total of eleven people killed in anti-abortion violence. Compare this to Islamic terrorism in the United States alone or left-wing terrorism in this country or a typical year in Chicago, and you must conclude that there is, in fact, very little violence associated with the anti-abortion movement.
2
This is purely stochastic terrorism.
End of story. Hold those catalyzing it accountable, if possible.
End of story. Hold those catalyzing it accountable, if possible.
8
Far right leaders know their constituents are largely uneducated. Hence, they've been free to rewrite history as they see fit. One such leader, a Republican running for election, stated in a radio debate, that Hitler and Nazi Germany were Marxists leftists run a muck. The moderator didn't bother to correct him. Now there are many people who believe it. They actually think that the US, Britain and Russia fought WWII to rid Europe of Socialism and/or Communism.
I have to wonder why our schools aren't teaching history properly anymore. Will history go the way of science, bent to the will of the people in power?
I have to wonder why our schools aren't teaching history properly anymore. Will history go the way of science, bent to the will of the people in power?
10
The volume truly needs to be turned down on all these issues. Mr Dear carried out the rage of his beliefs. We are very lucky that the FBI caught Jabari Dean before he carried out his threat to 'execute approximately 16 white male students and or staff' as retribution for the police killing of Laquan McDonald.
Violence in service of beliefs is unacceptable. We need to stop sensationalizing and inspiring those on the fringes.
Violence in service of beliefs is unacceptable. We need to stop sensationalizing and inspiring those on the fringes.
3
The war on women by republicans is real. If they really cared about "babies" they would be voting for programs that help them. They don't. This despicable crusade by republicans is all about their hate of women and keeping them under mens control.
15
This incident was supposedly brought on by a video that offended a large group of people. A faction within that group became violent. This author and paper hold the larger group and anyone with what the paper labels leadership in that larger, un-unified group, accountable.
A few years ago a different video emerged that offended millions of people. Some in that larger, un-unified group committed acts of violence. This paper (and our president) assured Americans it wasn't the fault of the larger group, their beliefs were non-violent, and its leadership were not to blame. We were assured the violence was committed by a few on the fringe; don't blame the many for the acts of the few.
The author rightly calls out people who attack abortion clinics for what they are; terrorists.
But substitute "antiabortion" for "Islam," re-read Times columns over the last few years. The inconsistency is almost comical.
On the one hand we can't blame the Religion of Peace for the violent acts of some on its fringe. We never hold its leaders accountable.
On the other, it's acceptable to blame the many for the acts of the few. It's acceptable to blame candidates - not even real leaders. Where's the OpEd to the leader: "Mr. President what are you doing to make these clinics safe!"?
And you blame the Limbaugh/O'Reilly media? You do realize you're the media too, right? Freedom of the press is OK for the Nation and the Times but needs to be reined in for Fox?
A few years ago a different video emerged that offended millions of people. Some in that larger, un-unified group committed acts of violence. This paper (and our president) assured Americans it wasn't the fault of the larger group, their beliefs were non-violent, and its leadership were not to blame. We were assured the violence was committed by a few on the fringe; don't blame the many for the acts of the few.
The author rightly calls out people who attack abortion clinics for what they are; terrorists.
But substitute "antiabortion" for "Islam," re-read Times columns over the last few years. The inconsistency is almost comical.
On the one hand we can't blame the Religion of Peace for the violent acts of some on its fringe. We never hold its leaders accountable.
On the other, it's acceptable to blame the many for the acts of the few. It's acceptable to blame candidates - not even real leaders. Where's the OpEd to the leader: "Mr. President what are you doing to make these clinics safe!"?
And you blame the Limbaugh/O'Reilly media? You do realize you're the media too, right? Freedom of the press is OK for the Nation and the Times but needs to be reined in for Fox?
3
Everyone criticizes Fiorino for lying about the content of the Planned Parenthood videos, but she is not one whit more dishonest than all the politicians who promulgate the deception inherent in the videos. The anti-choice movement is dishonest to the core, whether claiming to be against abortion while fighting against sex education, or closing clinics while pretending to be motivated by concern for women's health. They want to increase the number of unwanted children because life is sacred, but to increase poverty because life is an economic game. Dishonesty & inconsistency give you more to prove and less of a leg to stand on. Hence louder voices, more shrill and extreme rhetoric, and violence.
13
When one of the pastors at the church where one of the murdered was a member was interviewed, he of course was in shock and talked of the deceased as a loving member of the congregation.
Then he added his own feelings that even with PP being in "the abortion business" and that even though he himself "despised PP", and finished his chat. This is standardized male jargon in the "conservative" religious community- to casually and often just demonize PP for political and religious purpose as if it is fact. This kind of unsubstantiated talk ala Mike Huckabee should be confronted by the press and frankly, by the congregations.
Then he added his own feelings that even with PP being in "the abortion business" and that even though he himself "despised PP", and finished his chat. This is standardized male jargon in the "conservative" religious community- to casually and often just demonize PP for political and religious purpose as if it is fact. This kind of unsubstantiated talk ala Mike Huckabee should be confronted by the press and frankly, by the congregations.
19
When a girl gets pregnant, two lives are involved, not just the life of the fetus. "Pro-lifers" seem to forget that the life of a girl matters, too. But Republican candidates for President would outlaw all abortions, including of pregnancies due to rape, and incest. As the high court in Ireland just ruled, such strict laws against all abortion are "incompatible with human rights":
“She has to face all the dangers and problems, emotional or otherwise, of carrying a fetus for which she bears no moral responsibility and is merely a receptacle to carry the child of a rapist and/or a person who has committed incest, or both. In doing so, the law is enforcing prohibition of abortion against an innocent victim of a crime in a way which completely ignores the personal circumstances of the victim."
When two lives are involved, the life and health of the girl should be paramount, and balanced with the right to life of the fetus, as Roe v. Wade did. Instead, these Republicans want to outlaw all abortions regardless of the effect of pregnancy on girls, engage in hysterical rhetoric, put on show trials in Congress with doctored videos, and call abortion "evil" and "murder," inciting violence against girls and Planned Parenthood, which is trying to take care of their health and protect them from harm.
“She has to face all the dangers and problems, emotional or otherwise, of carrying a fetus for which she bears no moral responsibility and is merely a receptacle to carry the child of a rapist and/or a person who has committed incest, or both. In doing so, the law is enforcing prohibition of abortion against an innocent victim of a crime in a way which completely ignores the personal circumstances of the victim."
When two lives are involved, the life and health of the girl should be paramount, and balanced with the right to life of the fetus, as Roe v. Wade did. Instead, these Republicans want to outlaw all abortions regardless of the effect of pregnancy on girls, engage in hysterical rhetoric, put on show trials in Congress with doctored videos, and call abortion "evil" and "murder," inciting violence against girls and Planned Parenthood, which is trying to take care of their health and protect them from harm.
14
The act of abortion is a rather horrible thing to contemplate. Its an easy sell. In order to fight this insanity, one must first sympathize and agree that its an awful choice to have to make. We have to talk some people down off the ledge with understanding and reasoned argument. The ones that should not receive understanding, however, are the leaders of these movements,along with their propagandists and apologists, who will of to any length to incite anger and violence often in order to sell soap. Vote against the radicals. Punish the advertisers who support the propagandists. But have sympathetic discussions with everyday people. There is always common ground.
Alas, the quest -- if not demand -- for "safe spaces" is alive and well beyond campus walls.
According to the Guttmacher Institute, "From 1973 through 2011, nearly 53 million legal abortions occurred." (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html) One wonders exactly what kind of mandatory "trigger words" or censorship (whether self- or other-imposed) Ms. Politt would desire -- or require -- in order for a person to acceptably and permissibly express horror, dismay or, yes, even anger at such a toll?
We have rightfully long been wary of equating incitement of imminent violence (which can be suppressed) with hard-edged free speech (which cannot). Free speech does not become incitement because some maniac or fanatic somewhere could potentially be exposed to it and react violently. For if so, then there is certainly no need to start with -- or justification to stop at -- pro-life or anti-abortion speech.
According to the Guttmacher Institute, "From 1973 through 2011, nearly 53 million legal abortions occurred." (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html) One wonders exactly what kind of mandatory "trigger words" or censorship (whether self- or other-imposed) Ms. Politt would desire -- or require -- in order for a person to acceptably and permissibly express horror, dismay or, yes, even anger at such a toll?
We have rightfully long been wary of equating incitement of imminent violence (which can be suppressed) with hard-edged free speech (which cannot). Free speech does not become incitement because some maniac or fanatic somewhere could potentially be exposed to it and react violently. For if so, then there is certainly no need to start with -- or justification to stop at -- pro-life or anti-abortion speech.
3
The problem with complaining that anti-choice zealots are using extreme rhetoric in comparing abortion with the Holocaust is that their understanding of abortion permits no other conclusion.
They believe that fertilized human eggs are people. Hence, the intentional death of any potential life is murder. Hence, abortion murders millions of people, and abortion providers are engaged in mass murder.
The only way to end the violence and rhetoric is to stop believing that pre-natal humans are people.
There's something profoundly unchristian about judging others who don't believe pre-natal humans are people. Maybe, if they can believe abortion providers are mass murders, the rest of us can start believing they aren't Christian.
They believe that fertilized human eggs are people. Hence, the intentional death of any potential life is murder. Hence, abortion murders millions of people, and abortion providers are engaged in mass murder.
The only way to end the violence and rhetoric is to stop believing that pre-natal humans are people.
There's something profoundly unchristian about judging others who don't believe pre-natal humans are people. Maybe, if they can believe abortion providers are mass murders, the rest of us can start believing they aren't Christian.
10
If the anti-abortion zealots are so worried about abortion, why aren't they fighting for women's easy access to contraceptives? Because in their medieval world, where women are subjugated servants, pregnancy, birth and childrearing is "the price" women must pay for having (and God forbid enjoying) sex. Just this week, presidential candidate and anti-abortion zealot Ted Cruz, when asked for, presumably, adult 21st Century reflection on women's health choices, joked that there are plenty of condoms to be found in men's restrooms.
21
"Do we want to live in a country where extremists use violence to deny women legal health care, and people whose words may well spur them to action insist they have nothing to do with it?"
The reality is that we do live in such a country. And few right wing conservatives care. The messier the abortion conflict the better for their aim to end abortion no matter what the cost to others. It is not a "dirty little secret". Its open season.
The viral, vitriolic language that incited Mr. Dear to act is casually dismissed by anti-abortionists as meaningless and having no effect. Carly Fiorina's graphic description of babies being slaughtered for their body parts is not seen by her or her supporters as having any effect. So, why did she offer what she said? She knew exactly what would happen. She knew that her words would cause outrage and even overt action. We can connect the dots even though she denounces that as "typical left wing tactics".
Words have meaning. And impact. And sometimes words can lead to violence.
Inch by inch Republicans have rolled back abortion rights. When will Democrats finally find the courage to speak up and guarantee women's rights to chose and to do so without fear of reprisal by right wing extremists?
The reality is that we do live in such a country. And few right wing conservatives care. The messier the abortion conflict the better for their aim to end abortion no matter what the cost to others. It is not a "dirty little secret". Its open season.
The viral, vitriolic language that incited Mr. Dear to act is casually dismissed by anti-abortionists as meaningless and having no effect. Carly Fiorina's graphic description of babies being slaughtered for their body parts is not seen by her or her supporters as having any effect. So, why did she offer what she said? She knew exactly what would happen. She knew that her words would cause outrage and even overt action. We can connect the dots even though she denounces that as "typical left wing tactics".
Words have meaning. And impact. And sometimes words can lead to violence.
Inch by inch Republicans have rolled back abortion rights. When will Democrats finally find the courage to speak up and guarantee women's rights to chose and to do so without fear of reprisal by right wing extremists?
15
The Clintons said: It takes a village to raise a child.
When I state that I was a single mother all alone I mean that there was no help from the children's father, not that I did everything, all of everything, alone and by myself. There were friends and family that gave me emotional support just as there were those who gave me a bit of financial support when needed. There were teachers who went above and beyond the call to help my children. There were agencies, Big Brothers and Big Sisters of America, Boy and Girl Scouts, church, neighbors, and even professionals, who stepped in to mentor my children during different critical phases. I sincerely believe that my son is a pilot because of a pilot who not only tolerated his questions but encouraged his interests. My daughters were not so lucky but they were born when a female was still considered an appendage to a male than as a value unto themselves.
It is all fine and dandy to state a mass of cells is a life as long as those saying as much realize a life needs community to support it, guide it, and honor it... If that were the case, there would be no Robert L. Dear Jr.'s today. Why? Because he would have learned to value life from conception to grave.
When I state that I was a single mother all alone I mean that there was no help from the children's father, not that I did everything, all of everything, alone and by myself. There were friends and family that gave me emotional support just as there were those who gave me a bit of financial support when needed. There were teachers who went above and beyond the call to help my children. There were agencies, Big Brothers and Big Sisters of America, Boy and Girl Scouts, church, neighbors, and even professionals, who stepped in to mentor my children during different critical phases. I sincerely believe that my son is a pilot because of a pilot who not only tolerated his questions but encouraged his interests. My daughters were not so lucky but they were born when a female was still considered an appendage to a male than as a value unto themselves.
It is all fine and dandy to state a mass of cells is a life as long as those saying as much realize a life needs community to support it, guide it, and honor it... If that were the case, there would be no Robert L. Dear Jr.'s today. Why? Because he would have learned to value life from conception to grave.
9
"A majority of Americans believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases."
Or:
"A majority of Americans believe abortion should be illegal in some cases."
Funny how that spin works. Funny how science goes out the window when inconvenient. Until those on the middle ground of abortion -- that is, the majority of Americans -- are those most represented in the media, there will always be increasing visceral reaction from the extreme sides of the issue. I might point out that Jimmy Carter terms Chinese abortion practices as gendercide.
This in no way condones or rationalizes the killings that took place in Colorado. But if this man is what he seems -- insane -- he likely would have found another voice in his head to kill even if Planned Parenthood didn't exist.
I also don't condone hate speech or lies. But in a country boasting of freedom of speech it's impossible to eradicate them. Just look at Donald Trump.
Lastly, I am against capital punishment and I am against abortions which destroy a viable, feeling being. I am also for social programs that help the neediest among us. I feel that is our collective responsibility to society, to each other. But there is so much anger, if not hate, from both extremes of the spectrum. And as much as I love the New York Times, it has opted editorially to be absolutist for pro-choice. This is sad because all it provides is an echo chamber, one which rarely deals with the science.
Or:
"A majority of Americans believe abortion should be illegal in some cases."
Funny how that spin works. Funny how science goes out the window when inconvenient. Until those on the middle ground of abortion -- that is, the majority of Americans -- are those most represented in the media, there will always be increasing visceral reaction from the extreme sides of the issue. I might point out that Jimmy Carter terms Chinese abortion practices as gendercide.
This in no way condones or rationalizes the killings that took place in Colorado. But if this man is what he seems -- insane -- he likely would have found another voice in his head to kill even if Planned Parenthood didn't exist.
I also don't condone hate speech or lies. But in a country boasting of freedom of speech it's impossible to eradicate them. Just look at Donald Trump.
Lastly, I am against capital punishment and I am against abortions which destroy a viable, feeling being. I am also for social programs that help the neediest among us. I feel that is our collective responsibility to society, to each other. But there is so much anger, if not hate, from both extremes of the spectrum. And as much as I love the New York Times, it has opted editorially to be absolutist for pro-choice. This is sad because all it provides is an echo chamber, one which rarely deals with the science.
4
"Carly Fiorina, called it 'typical left-wing tactics' to connect them." I take her at her analytical word, if rebuttable proof of incapacity to handle noncommercial problems of the most fundamental kind.
3
I am saddened every time I see constitutional rights being trampled upon by vigilantes. What else can we call people who take the law into their own hands?
6
The dirty little secret is that this is the screed of the entire Republican party, including those who are suited up and running for President. Republicans were not always like this--I am proud to have voted Republican. But they have poisoned themselves and now, with the aid of lazy and lame press, they are poisoning our country.
9
Just a word on those allegedly doctored videos referred to as the alleged instigation to stir up this alleged Christian who was allegedly talking about body parts. Those videos are sworn to their validity, and entered as evidence, under penalty of perjury in the courts of the united states. So unless you are willing to sign an affidavit to your claims that they are doctored or edited, your testimony will be stricken from the record as hearsay. Along with all the other alleged facts in this bogus opinion.
3
It is far past time to begin to indict purveyors of lies such as Carly Fiorina as co-conspirators in the murders and violence at Planned Parenthood. At a minimum, the families of the victims should sue all of these people for inciting terrorism.
6
No policy changes are more urgently needed in the US than withdrawing all public policy favortism for the religion and weapons industries.
10
Abortion is violence. It is violence against the most innocent. Using or encouraging violence against abortion is to become that which one most abhors. Violence against abortion is returning wrong for wrong.
4
I find it ironic that the same people who use references to the Holocaust, slavery and mass murder when describing abortion and maintain it has no impact, declare it a "War on Christmas," when someone wishes them "Happy Holidays."
4
Oh, the anti-abortion leaders have no problem with the madmen who go on shooting rampages. The madmen are helping their epic religious war against "Darkness". The leader of Operation Rescue Boston, posting recently on its website, wrote in bold font that "Pro-lifers have nothing to apologize for regarding shootings" and quotes some not-so-subtle scripture to excuse any violence that may occur as a consequence of their crusade.
These are the same people who deliberately painted themselves as harmless, plump grandparently types who just want to "have conversations" with people and pray, and who used this argument to win a Supreme Court case about buffer zones in 2014. As a clinic escort at the very PP that lost its buffer zone after that case, I am under no illusion about these people and their nasty, hateful, harassing attitudes towards patients and personnel. I would not be surprised if they were all secretly rejoicing and singing prayers of gratitude when the shooting happened.
These are the same people who deliberately painted themselves as harmless, plump grandparently types who just want to "have conversations" with people and pray, and who used this argument to win a Supreme Court case about buffer zones in 2014. As a clinic escort at the very PP that lost its buffer zone after that case, I am under no illusion about these people and their nasty, hateful, harassing attitudes towards patients and personnel. I would not be surprised if they were all secretly rejoicing and singing prayers of gratitude when the shooting happened.
11
Anti-abortion rhetoric incites violence and pro-lifers must take responsibility. Incidentally, the are not really "pro-life."
9
I will never understand how "Oh, yeah, well that guy was mentally unstable" can be the end of the discussion when the perpetrator is white and nominally Christian (what's so Christlike about shooting people?). Do we not think terrorists of other stripes might also be mentally unstable? Does it matter? I would venture that no suicide bomber is in a good mental state, or the "suicide" part would be a dealbreaker. Yet somehow we are able to recognize that the 9/11 attackers were terrorists regardless. It's time to stop the excuses for terrorists whose faces we collectively like better.
9
The anti-abortion movement wants to outlaw abortion for everyone because it is contrary to their personal moral code. What if a religious group (for example, Catholics) decided to outlaw divorce for everyone, as well as second, third, and fourth marriages, because they are contrary to the Church's law, as well as their own personal moral code. Catholic county clerks could refuse to issue marriage licences in these circumstances under the guise of religious liberty (as was recently done by a Christian county clerk for same sex marriage). Could you imagine the uproar caused by this completely analogous move!
The Christian right wing is intent on imposing Christian sharia law on this country, while at the same time expressing fear about the imposition of sharia law on the same country. I was brought up to believe that the United States was a country with separation of church and state. Unfortunately, this is no longer true.
As for violently anti-abortion speech (as well as the lies we hear every day from the Republican presidential candidates), words have consequences, sometimes deadly. With all the virulent, and untrue, rhetoric these days, I fear for the future of this country.
The Christian right wing is intent on imposing Christian sharia law on this country, while at the same time expressing fear about the imposition of sharia law on the same country. I was brought up to believe that the United States was a country with separation of church and state. Unfortunately, this is no longer true.
As for violently anti-abortion speech (as well as the lies we hear every day from the Republican presidential candidates), words have consequences, sometimes deadly. With all the virulent, and untrue, rhetoric these days, I fear for the future of this country.
8
Katha, I assume you do not see the 55 million fetuses which have been killed since 1973. Perhaps you think merely of "reproductive rights" and leave it at that.
But you need to be more respectful of those of us, even those who are not religious, who are appalled at this slaughter, and acknowledge the cruelty of the abortion procedure in late pregnancy.
As a moderate my preference would be for acceptance and promotion of both contraception and day after pills, and a near total ban on abortion after the fetus has a detectable heart beat. An abortion after a heart beat would require a strong reason, and would no longer just fall under "privacy"
This compromise would require a cooperative attitude from the pro-lifers and pro-choicers AND the Supreme Court. But if the first two arrive at a compromise, then perhaps the SC will also go along. And note that what I suggest is the law in Germany, France, Italy and India.
As one of my teachers Thich Nhat Hanh says, "There is no way to peace. Peace IS the way."
Let us Americans end our quarrels, and start to work together on our problems.
But you need to be more respectful of those of us, even those who are not religious, who are appalled at this slaughter, and acknowledge the cruelty of the abortion procedure in late pregnancy.
As a moderate my preference would be for acceptance and promotion of both contraception and day after pills, and a near total ban on abortion after the fetus has a detectable heart beat. An abortion after a heart beat would require a strong reason, and would no longer just fall under "privacy"
This compromise would require a cooperative attitude from the pro-lifers and pro-choicers AND the Supreme Court. But if the first two arrive at a compromise, then perhaps the SC will also go along. And note that what I suggest is the law in Germany, France, Italy and India.
As one of my teachers Thich Nhat Hanh says, "There is no way to peace. Peace IS the way."
Let us Americans end our quarrels, and start to work together on our problems.
16
My fear is that there will be calls for "compromise" on abortion issue with claims that there are "reasonable people" on both sides. This false equivalency will only lead to stealthy erosion of women's rights. There can be no compromise with a lie. Abortion is not murder. Fetuses are not children. A woman has an absolute right to her body. Anybody who claims the opposite is a deluded believer or a deliberate demagogue. Public opinion polls have no bearing on the issue of fundamental human rights: there are plenty of countries where public opinion polls show that the majority support the values of Da'esh. This does not make them right. Nor is the fact that some European countries set a limit of the time when an abortion can be performed relevant: there are many reasons for this, some good (these countries have a low natural growth), some not so good. But as long as an abortion opponent tells me "abortion is murder", I stop listening.
12
I guess I don't understand why abortion, which is a fairly safe outpatient procedure, is not treated the same way other relatively minor outpatient procedures are treated. Many hospitals and clinics have other, similar types of procedures performed daily. Dental surgeries, plastic surgeries, endoscopies, colonoscopies--and many other types of same day procedures are carried out either in hospital clinics or same day facilities without having to be physically separated. We have created this bubble around this one procedure, when it is just part of a spectrum of health care procedures that should be widely available in any hospital or clinic to anyone who needs it. Not everyone is ready to bear a child. Not everyone is healthy enough to bear a child. It is a personal decision--not one up for social grabs. If we make this procedure much more accessible, it will take the heat off those who are out there in free-standing clinics. Every hospital should have a women's clinic where any and all procedures are available. Is this the case or not? If not--it should be.
10
We have chosen to make abortion a litmus test for our politicians.
Already a controversial topic - what could be more controversial than an issue that pits a woman's right to self-determination against another's unshakeable belief that self determination results in infanticide? - we have chosen to make it a political wedge issue.
And with that, we can no longer have a sensible discussion, or find ways to compromise, establish parameters, assure independent medical decisions, because we need to invoke the specter of "slippery slope" to keep the issue hot and political.
As long as abortion is an issue that guarantees certain voters will fall into camps, thereby making their votes assured and inexpensive, we will have the controversy, the rhetoric, the constant stirring of the pot. Like almost everything else that we cannot accomplish through political compromise, we have chose this path.
Already a controversial topic - what could be more controversial than an issue that pits a woman's right to self-determination against another's unshakeable belief that self determination results in infanticide? - we have chosen to make it a political wedge issue.
And with that, we can no longer have a sensible discussion, or find ways to compromise, establish parameters, assure independent medical decisions, because we need to invoke the specter of "slippery slope" to keep the issue hot and political.
As long as abortion is an issue that guarantees certain voters will fall into camps, thereby making their votes assured and inexpensive, we will have the controversy, the rhetoric, the constant stirring of the pot. Like almost everything else that we cannot accomplish through political compromise, we have chose this path.
But it works.
And of course the anti-abortion extremists actually believe what they say. It is sometimes hard for people who do NOT believe what they say to understand where their rage and violence comes from, but THEY believe that fertilized eggs are the equilivent of babies. If you held that actual belief you might commit violent acts as well.
The question is whether politicians who talk this up to their base and incite this sort of violence also believe those things or whether they are pandering without concern as to where it could lead.
The other question is why in this day and age abortion has to be relegated to clinics that can be isolated and targeted for violence instead of performed in hospitals alongside every other medical procedure.
And of course the anti-abortion extremists actually believe what they say. It is sometimes hard for people who do NOT believe what they say to understand where their rage and violence comes from, but THEY believe that fertilized eggs are the equilivent of babies. If you held that actual belief you might commit violent acts as well.
The question is whether politicians who talk this up to their base and incite this sort of violence also believe those things or whether they are pandering without concern as to where it could lead.
The other question is why in this day and age abortion has to be relegated to clinics that can be isolated and targeted for violence instead of performed in hospitals alongside every other medical procedure.
2
I think its rather strange that the GOP believes in limited government except when it comes to a women's health and sex life. There they want to regulate every step and action. However once the baby is born they want to provide no healthcare for it, no food, no shelter and marginal schooling. What are they thinking???
10
There is a strong distinction between freedom of speech and harassment, intimidation, bullying. I believe the latter is illegal and dangerous.
5
We are performing millions of abortions a year with no objective standard or test to determine whether the fetus was alive. This means that we DO NOT KNOW. Doctors might be killing millions of patients with only a parent's consent, and we don't know, because we have no way of checking.
Before destroying a fetus, any sane person would want to know, "am I killing someone?" The fact that we have no way of determining this information means that abortions in the U.S. right now take place in an ethical Wild West mentality.
This is an untenable, and for some people, inflammatory situation. I don't think you can primarily blame rhetoric.
Before destroying a fetus, any sane person would want to know, "am I killing someone?" The fact that we have no way of determining this information means that abortions in the U.S. right now take place in an ethical Wild West mentality.
This is an untenable, and for some people, inflammatory situation. I don't think you can primarily blame rhetoric.
3
so a psycho shoots up an abortion clinic, and this then means that people opposed to the selling of live babies who are killed for their baby parts are somehow not supposed to say they are opposed to this ugly ugly tax payer funded practice?
sorry, I don't buy that.
sorry, I don't buy that.
1
We buried the blood-soaked towels in the ravine. In late 50s we watched an older school friend almost bleed to death from a botched self-abortion. She just barely didn't die. We couldn't tell anybody. We would have let her die. Yes, a knitting needle.
Closing clinics won't end abortion. It will end safe abortion.
Can't go back.
Closing clinics won't end abortion. It will end safe abortion.
Can't go back.
12
Terrorism is planned violence (lethal or otherwise) against civilians/non-combatants in pursuit of a political or social agenda, no matter what that agenda may be. Period. There is no justification for it. Period.
9
This article is inciting pro-choice people to attack pro-life people as it smears the entire group of pro-life people. The author needs to choose her words very carefully.
2
Based on the comments I felt I should post again to say that this is not a matter of people asking “normal” folks to account for people who have committed crimes in the name of those normal people.
It has been well known since at least the 1930’s that public rhetoric does incite people to action without being given explicit direction. Hitler proved how effective this can be especially when the people are under economic strain.
From the start waaay back in the 70’s (bad economy) it was very clear that the GOP and its religious wing were using hate rhetoric about abortion to incite. They intended every act of intimidation and violence, it is in fact the very essence of the protest at the clinic tactic to make it so onerous and fear, shame and terror inducing to the women as to prevent them from coming in.
So the violence toward women and personnel at women’s health clinics is not the unintended consequences of protesting at clinics caused by crazy people. It is actually the whole point of those protests. The violence was the end goal of them all along whether or not the individuals enacting this strategy know it.
It has been well known since at least the 1930’s that public rhetoric does incite people to action without being given explicit direction. Hitler proved how effective this can be especially when the people are under economic strain.
From the start waaay back in the 70’s (bad economy) it was very clear that the GOP and its religious wing were using hate rhetoric about abortion to incite. They intended every act of intimidation and violence, it is in fact the very essence of the protest at the clinic tactic to make it so onerous and fear, shame and terror inducing to the women as to prevent them from coming in.
So the violence toward women and personnel at women’s health clinics is not the unintended consequences of protesting at clinics caused by crazy people. It is actually the whole point of those protests. The violence was the end goal of them all along whether or not the individuals enacting this strategy know it.
4
These Unamericans support the same Republican Party, yep Ted Cruz, who have written many anit-child riders into the budget bill as written in the Times today "The GOP's Worst Budget Riders". They don't really care about children in any form or they wouldn't deny climate change and even before any agreement in Paris, try and scuttle it. It all reminds me of an old Sting song entitled "I Hope the Russians (in this case Republicans) Love Their Children Too".
8
This isn't about abortion. That's a red hearing. It's about violence against women. Our country has a long history of supporting violence against women. It's not a surprise to me that after this man stopped beating his wives and girlfriend that he turned up at a Planned Parenthood clinic. It's not surprising to me that political candidates that are openly misogynistic and racist support this.
6
730,322 children were aborted in the US in 2011 according to the CDC.
When exactly does a woman's right to kill her child end?
Three months. Six months? Nine months. Or perhaps, one day short of one of those?
When exactly does a woman's right to kill her child end?
Three months. Six months? Nine months. Or perhaps, one day short of one of those?
1
Where does your right to tell women what to do with their bodies end? Does it end?
I assume you've already donated a kidney. I assume you're as strongly in favor of forced organ donation as you are of forced pregnancy and childbirth. Anything else would be the height of hypocrisy.
I assume you've already donated a kidney. I assume you're as strongly in favor of forced organ donation as you are of forced pregnancy and childbirth. Anything else would be the height of hypocrisy.
After my daughter graduated from college, she had no insurance and little money. A discovery from a free procedure at Dallas Planned Parenthood probably saved her life. Every time I see her happy face, I am reminded to send my donation in to PP.
17
The NYT reporting has been rhetorically weak on this issue. These assaults are Christian terrorism; they shouldn't be afraid to call it out. These are textbook cases of pathological altruism. Speaking as a a Roman Catholic, I can say from first-hand experience that the Church is silent on the issue of terrorism against abortion providers. It would not be a moral compromise for them to condemn this behavior and still embrace their views on family planning, abortion, sexuality, etc. But they are silent. It's awful. It perpetuates these tragedies.
9
The Republican Party, once again, has blood on its hands. Through their relentless hate speech, lies and steadfast efforts to make sure criminals and crazies have easy access to fire arms they have created an environment where domestic terrorism thrives. How unfit they all are for pubic office.
7
The Roseberg, OR community college killer singled out Christians. So let's stop the hate speech against Christians who follow their conscience by refusing services, such as cakes and flowers at same sex weddings, that violate their consciences. Nobody in the left seemed to connect hate speech against Christians to the Roseberg tragedy. Be consistent.
1
Katha, you are so right! The problem is that neither the media (which is beyond mealy-mouthed about the anti-choice community and treats them with kid gloves) nor the current crop of politicos is interested in protecting women on any real level. This is terrorism, full stop. Terrorism perpetrated largely by white, supposedly devout Christian men (mostly) and women. They have a huge stake in controlling women's bodies: a form of abuse. They oppose anything that might provide women with independence and self-actualization other than the supposed joys of motherhood. But after the baby is born? God help you if you're poor: no welfare or subsidized child care for you! In my mind the ultimate irony is that the group that claims to be pro-life" is also the most vocal enthusiast for the death penalty.
7
There are two lives involved during a pregnancy, anatomically and physiologically
intertwined. Sometimes a woman's life and well-being are threatened such that termination is a legitimate medical procedure. A long-standing ethical principle that guided physicians in the past is that the mother's life is primary over the fetus. What I resent most about these people, even more than the lies, the arrogance and ignorance, is that their rhetoric and screaming have confused the discussion of medical care for women diagnosed with cancer after becoming pregnant, women with eclampsia and other complications of pregnancy, women whose aorta may rupture during labor, and the list goes on. Women should be able to make medical decisions about their lives and well-being without interference and intimidation.
intertwined. Sometimes a woman's life and well-being are threatened such that termination is a legitimate medical procedure. A long-standing ethical principle that guided physicians in the past is that the mother's life is primary over the fetus. What I resent most about these people, even more than the lies, the arrogance and ignorance, is that their rhetoric and screaming have confused the discussion of medical care for women diagnosed with cancer after becoming pregnant, women with eclampsia and other complications of pregnancy, women whose aorta may rupture during labor, and the list goes on. Women should be able to make medical decisions about their lives and well-being without interference and intimidation.
8
Mandate that abortion services be provided at every single hospital which receives federal money. That should solve the problem entirely.
7
Planned parenthood was selling baby body parts but say it was "at cost" ( I.e., reimbursement for costs) and legal. While this may be true it is easy to understand why many would find this very wrong. Should they remain silent or speak out? It is unfortunate that there are some who commit violent acts but this does not mean an important topic can't be discussed openly.
3
Well done! As a linguist and speech/language pathologist, with my interns and students, we study the force of language -- how it shapes us in childhood, and moving up through the years, shapes our patterns of thinking, of cognitive recognition (supposed by brain science research) and re-presents our ideas, with or without being informed or measured in our use. The rise of the 'net and social media has thrust us into a global culture of 'communication' in which we can use shocking language to evoke images along with declamatory delivery style seen, not just heard, arousing emotional and psychological underpinnings that lead to public displays of idiocy (the current crop of Republican candidates in America) and graphic images with voice-overs that ignite hatred, magical thinking and destructive acts. Coupled with the access to armaments, not once readily available, and the belief that my words, my rights trump yours, needs to be roundly denounced. Hate speech needs to be less available and there should be regulation of the 'net in a way that reduces access to anti-social thinking that once upon a time, belonged to the crazy person in the neighborhood. Take away the rights of women to choose? Why not focus on chipping away, as the conservatives have, at certain aspects of public speech, i.e., the rights of people to spew patently false language and positions in public forums. Free speech or hate speech? We need to decide and act.
33
The scope of practice for language pathologists has apparently expanded to assessing those with a difference in opinion.
The Republicans in our country - captured and captivated these many years by extremist Christians- know exactly what they are doing. They have used unbridled, incendiary, fact-free, hate language for decades. They use this language to stir up their base, and to give a veneer of victimhood to their positions, which in reality are about brutal and rigid control of Americans who are not exactly like them.
Their language- violent in its imagery and rhetoric, visceral in its descriptions, free of any form of logic or restraint- motivates our worst human impulses. Inevitably, it winds someone up. Someone who, thanks again to GOP policy, has no difficulty accessing firearms.
This is terrorism. This is a literal war on American women- on their rights to safety, right to medical care, right to privacy, and right to autonomy. It has little to do with the abortion itself. It's about creating and maintaining a fear-based form of patriarchy, and if words and screaming protesters are not enough, then firebombs and bullets will follow.
If the Republicans in our country actually cared about children, they would expand our social safety net to include and nurture them. Of course, they never do this. In fact, they are vehemently opposed to any such spending. They are rank, diseased hypocrites.
That such rhetoric and the violence it creates is allowed to exist and persist in our nation should make us not only angry, but deeply ashamed. We must do better. Enough is enough.
Their language- violent in its imagery and rhetoric, visceral in its descriptions, free of any form of logic or restraint- motivates our worst human impulses. Inevitably, it winds someone up. Someone who, thanks again to GOP policy, has no difficulty accessing firearms.
This is terrorism. This is a literal war on American women- on their rights to safety, right to medical care, right to privacy, and right to autonomy. It has little to do with the abortion itself. It's about creating and maintaining a fear-based form of patriarchy, and if words and screaming protesters are not enough, then firebombs and bullets will follow.
If the Republicans in our country actually cared about children, they would expand our social safety net to include and nurture them. Of course, they never do this. In fact, they are vehemently opposed to any such spending. They are rank, diseased hypocrites.
That such rhetoric and the violence it creates is allowed to exist and persist in our nation should make us not only angry, but deeply ashamed. We must do better. Enough is enough.
8
Rhetoric matters just as much as the act of violence against Planned Parenthood Centers itself. Words have consequences, and those who incite a lone crazed individual or a cabal to action through overt comments to act, or who spread false and malicious information are equally liable for their behavior.
There is a method to send a stern rebuke to such behavior. Civil litigation against those individuals and organizations who make these remarks and send their "dog whistle" commentary that can propel others to act on their behalf. This is not First Amendment rights, but the encouragement to create violence and mayhem against others because of difference of political ideals.
The Justice Department and States' Attorney General are empowered to file and bring individuals and organization leadership to trial. If these degenerates of society want to harm others and stand behind "Freedom of Speech", then heavy fines, litigation to compensate those who have suffered loss, prison time, and registration as a domestic terrorist group/individual will place these perpetrators of societal violence on a path to financial ruin. Money talks and nothing better than to a just sentence than to punish these cretins for life.
There is a method to send a stern rebuke to such behavior. Civil litigation against those individuals and organizations who make these remarks and send their "dog whistle" commentary that can propel others to act on their behalf. This is not First Amendment rights, but the encouragement to create violence and mayhem against others because of difference of political ideals.
The Justice Department and States' Attorney General are empowered to file and bring individuals and organization leadership to trial. If these degenerates of society want to harm others and stand behind "Freedom of Speech", then heavy fines, litigation to compensate those who have suffered loss, prison time, and registration as a domestic terrorist group/individual will place these perpetrators of societal violence on a path to financial ruin. Money talks and nothing better than to a just sentence than to punish these cretins for life.
29
The worst thing for women's health in America has been the isolation of abortion from other gynecological services, thereby making the women who seek an abortion, along with their providers, easy targets for rabid protesters and potential murderers. Merely walking into a Planned Parenthood clinic, or a clinic where it's known that abortions are regularly provided, makes every patient a target. This is not the case with those seeking any other medical service.
For the safety of women and their health providers, abortion services should be decentralized. The best bet is for hospitals to offer them along with other out-patient practices, tucking them in with everything else that's offered on an outpatient basis, and stop the practice of channeling women seeing abortions to easily identifiable abortion providers.
Observe that despite the right-wing mantra that abortion is murder, no one, even the most zealous of the anti-abortion crowd, equates Mr. Dear's murdering three people with abortion. Ask yourself why this is. The answer is that most human beings, even the most ethical, and even among those most passionately against abortion, do not truly equate the cold-blooded murder of three people with the abortion of three fetuses.
For the safety of women and their health providers, abortion services should be decentralized. The best bet is for hospitals to offer them along with other out-patient practices, tucking them in with everything else that's offered on an outpatient basis, and stop the practice of channeling women seeing abortions to easily identifiable abortion providers.
Observe that despite the right-wing mantra that abortion is murder, no one, even the most zealous of the anti-abortion crowd, equates Mr. Dear's murdering three people with abortion. Ask yourself why this is. The answer is that most human beings, even the most ethical, and even among those most passionately against abortion, do not truly equate the cold-blooded murder of three people with the abortion of three fetuses.
42
The appropriate parallel for the anti-abortion movement is abolition but rather prohibition. Women and children, considered legal property, had no power over spouses or parents who were abusive or drank up all their earnings. The change that was needed was vast--women needed the right to vote, own property, to become independent entities under the law. This was too broad a change, so instead we got Carrie Nation, axes in bars and "lips that touch liquor shall never touch mine." For decades, culminating in the ineffective days of Prohibition. That's how we coped as a nation.
Starting in the sixties, our society changed drastically, with women gaining power, autonomy, and even sexual freedom. Addressing this overqhelming and swift change directly didn't work. The change was here to stay. But attacking women's sexual freedom was possible, via anti-abortion. When they included the morning after pill, it became even more clear. 25% of pregnancies naturally terminate, but "pro-lifers" want to be more holy than God. The same rabid viciousness shows up that we saw with Carrie Nation protests. The real issues in both cases remain trampled underfoot.
Starting in the sixties, our society changed drastically, with women gaining power, autonomy, and even sexual freedom. Addressing this overqhelming and swift change directly didn't work. The change was here to stay. But attacking women's sexual freedom was possible, via anti-abortion. When they included the morning after pill, it became even more clear. 25% of pregnancies naturally terminate, but "pro-lifers" want to be more holy than God. The same rabid viciousness shows up that we saw with Carrie Nation protests. The real issues in both cases remain trampled underfoot.
4
The bottom line, of course, is that words and images matter. They have the capacity to achieve great good or to destroy. Our commitment to free speech stems from a recognition of the great power of words. Although we try to limit the harmful impact through laws against libel, the current election campaign and the attacks on PP expose the limits of their effectiveness.
Some countries in Europe prohibit certain forms of hate speech. Our reverence for the 1st amendment precludes our following that approach, at least for the present. In any case, no free society can depend primarily on government to ensure acceptable behavior.
We depend on peer pressure and cultural forces to guarantee that most people will behave as if their opponents belonged to the same community as themselves. While in practice this ideal has always remained elusive, today we seem on the verge of abandoning it altogether.
The problem stems in large part from the Republican conviction that compromise is incompatible with adherence to principle. They have converted their ideas about taxes, the role of government, and foreign policy into an ideology, deviation from which qualifies as heresy. They dismiss their Democratic opponents as 'the other,' from whom they have to take their country back.
It is this Manichean view of society that justifies, in their minds, the vicious language used against their opponents, and which makes them unsuited to
lead a pluralistic nation.
Some countries in Europe prohibit certain forms of hate speech. Our reverence for the 1st amendment precludes our following that approach, at least for the present. In any case, no free society can depend primarily on government to ensure acceptable behavior.
We depend on peer pressure and cultural forces to guarantee that most people will behave as if their opponents belonged to the same community as themselves. While in practice this ideal has always remained elusive, today we seem on the verge of abandoning it altogether.
The problem stems in large part from the Republican conviction that compromise is incompatible with adherence to principle. They have converted their ideas about taxes, the role of government, and foreign policy into an ideology, deviation from which qualifies as heresy. They dismiss their Democratic opponents as 'the other,' from whom they have to take their country back.
It is this Manichean view of society that justifies, in their minds, the vicious language used against their opponents, and which makes them unsuited to
lead a pluralistic nation.
54
Abortion should be legal and rare. On that delicate balance, I am pro-life. Pro-life because I have adopted children who, in a delicate balance that fell to the opposite outcome, would not have lived. I should be able to hold that belief without being called misogynistic and a woman-hater.
The life/choice debate is a sad chapter in our country's history, sadder than any civic area of distrust that have competed with abortion in recent years.
Gender selection is infanticide. Taking of life in the final months of pregnancy to avoid bringing a Down syndrome child into the world is infanticide. We need to be willing to say where we are crossing the line or we march forward to eugenics, something well above our pay grade as human beings. Professor Steven Levitt's research has found compelling correlation between Roe v. Wade and the crime rate decline. We should find the courage to ask if this is how we cull undesirable lives among us or if there are better means to help fellow human beings, particularly when we characterize PP's effects.
Our society needs to respect those on either end of this terrible debate. We need to hold adults responsible when they are undertaking the most grave and consequential thing we do: creating a new life, men and women. It means harsher penalties for "fathers", and it means articulating more honestly when a woman's right to control her body passes the "sell by" date for that power.
We are better than both clinic and late-term murders.
The life/choice debate is a sad chapter in our country's history, sadder than any civic area of distrust that have competed with abortion in recent years.
Gender selection is infanticide. Taking of life in the final months of pregnancy to avoid bringing a Down syndrome child into the world is infanticide. We need to be willing to say where we are crossing the line or we march forward to eugenics, something well above our pay grade as human beings. Professor Steven Levitt's research has found compelling correlation between Roe v. Wade and the crime rate decline. We should find the courage to ask if this is how we cull undesirable lives among us or if there are better means to help fellow human beings, particularly when we characterize PP's effects.
Our society needs to respect those on either end of this terrible debate. We need to hold adults responsible when they are undertaking the most grave and consequential thing we do: creating a new life, men and women. It means harsher penalties for "fathers", and it means articulating more honestly when a woman's right to control her body passes the "sell by" date for that power.
We are better than both clinic and late-term murders.
1
Of course late-term abortions are quite rare, and almost never carrid out except hen a fetus is damaged beyond repair or the mother's life is in immediate danger, but please--go right on ahead with the smug theory that you know better than women and their doctors.
1
If a bunny can not get enough food to develop her unborn kittens, Mother nature allows her to absorb the unborn kittens, and wait for a better time.
A woman is at least a bunny, and if she can not now take care of a child, she should at least have the option"intelligent design" ahs given a bunny.
A woman is at least a bunny, and if she can not now take care of a child, she should at least have the option"intelligent design" ahs given a bunny.
5
So Dear was bunny hunting?
What irony here! Fanatical "right-to-life" supporters kill and maim people who are doing their jobs legally. Don't they have a right-to-life?
10
It is the job of law enforcement to protect women who want to exercise their LEGAL RIGHT to an abortion. Their failure, the failure of legislators who have not stood up for women's rights, and the failure of the media for giving so much press to those who oppose women's rights, has denigrated and diminished the country. Until women are secure in their right to autonomy of life, the U.S. will always have the backward reek of the Dark Ages.
11
You have the audacity, Katha, to complain about the WAY in which pro-life Americans condemn the Robert Dear shooting?
Yes, pro-lifers can condemn Dear's actions, and simultaneously condemn the killing that takes place in abortion clinics each day. If people are less tolerant of your silly euphemisms, then that's just too bad.
Yes, pro-lifers can condemn Dear's actions, and simultaneously condemn the killing that takes place in abortion clinics each day. If people are less tolerant of your silly euphemisms, then that's just too bad.
2
Good article. Christian morality should be a "seamless whole cloth" (John 19:23). Therefore if the anti-abortionists are really "pro-life", as they claim to be, they should eschew violence in all forms.
13
The vast majority of anti-abortion protesters and Christians who do not believe in abortion are peaceful and decent citizens -- just as most MUSLIMS are.
2
You forgot to say that the vast majority of Christians and anti-abortion protesters KEEP SILENT when acts of violence or murder at abortion or near Planned parenthoods happen. Keeping silent by Church, by Church leaders et all means a passive agreement. That's what's being criticized here.
1
Not all anti-abortionist rhetoric is dispensed by right-wing conservatives. During his recent visit to the United States, Pope Francis stressed the need to “protect and defend human life at every stage of its development.” He also directed U.S. bishops to speak out against abortion, telling them not to forget “the innocent victims of abortion” in their sermons. (Francis was referring to the same millions of dead babies as Mike Huckabee.) According to a recent Gallup Poll, “Half of Americans consider themselves ‘pro-choice’ on abortion, surpassing the 44% who identify as ‘pro-life.’ This is the first time since 2008 that the pro-choice position has had a statistically significant lead in Americans' abortion views.” Half of Americans may be pro-choice—at least for the moment—but characterizing the other half of Americans as violent right-wing extremist is unjustified.
3
'...characterizing the other half of Americans as violent right-wing extremist is unjustified.'
Agreed, which is not even close to what this article did.
Agreed, which is not even close to what this article did.
9
Planned Parenthood exists to help make wanted pregnancies healthy pregnancies too.
3
Right-wing conservatives and church leaders go hand in hand, I'm not sure why you are presenting it as if they were different. Also, the Pope said to PROTECT, it doesn't mean to KILL or to even go to Congress and try to change the laws by imposing them on those who do not hold the same religious belief. See the difference? Leave your religious belief out of our laws please, abortion is a PERSONAL, an INDIVIDUAL choice. Let those who do it answer to the Creator when the time comes.
Girls in rural Afghanistan who saw their primary school blown up by Taliban terrorists will find this article all too depressingly familiar...if they are able to read.
16
Is Christian Sharia any different than Muslim Sharia? I don't see much of a difference. The basic attitude towards women is the same. Men should rule what they do!
31
A Christian terrorist is still a terrorist.
31
Is there really much of a difference between the mullahs who incite dissafected Muslim youth and politicians who incite unstable fundamentalist Christians?
29
Ms. Pollitt is right: it IS terrorism--the use of violence, or the threat of violence, to enforce demands that are not obtainable by legal means. And until ALL terrorism--not just muslim terrorism--is vigorously prosecuted, it will not cease. We have largely CONDONED anti-abortion terrorism in this country, and so of course it persists. ALL terorism is anti-democratic, and cannot be tolerated in a democratic society. Groups that have been clearly linked to this kind of terrorism should be persued under the RICO statutes, as racketeers, as the gangsters they are.
Those who oppose abortion certainly have a right to express their opinions, by all legal means. What they DON´T have is a right to FORCE their opinions on others by intimidation, by undermining the law of the land.
Those who oppose abortion certainly have a right to express their opinions, by all legal means. What they DON´T have is a right to FORCE their opinions on others by intimidation, by undermining the law of the land.
27
The US has allowed it to become a for-profit religion where worship takes the form of screaming lies and obscenities in the faces of people at some of the most vulnerable times of their lives.
3
I have only one question - do you apply these same standards across the board? To wit, do you condemn the BLM movement for the violence and threats of violence associated with their attempts to enforce their demands, and believe that they should be prosecuted under RICO?
If so, I applaud your consistency.
If so, I applaud your consistency.
The author unfortunately buries the lead very deep indeed. Given the immense potential to influence people that comes with a NY Times op-ed, she focuses on the violence perpetrated by certifiably disturbed individuals as if it were an existential threat to civilization. It’s not, but the visceral resistance to a rational acceptance of women’s basic rights very well could be – and THAT’S the lead that shouldn’t be buried.
The physical toll of violent anti-abortion speech and other action is quite real in the sense that human beings have been killed or wounded, families devastated, and facilities damaged. But as true as that is, about 7,000 incidents in over forty years, including eight murders, 17 attempted murders, 42 bombings and 182 arsons does not threaten our society; and if that were the totality of it, all of that wouldn’t even threaten Roe and a woman’s right to exercise basic and rational control over her own body.
What threatens THAT is a well-orchestrated set of initiatives by some state legislatures to deny women the ability to obtain an abortion that they want and that complies with the rules set down by Roe – justified by religious convictions. This is the most fundamental kind of attack on our basic constitutional framework BESIDES being a threat to women specifically. It has the potential to destroy us. But the deranged actions of Robert L. Dear Jr., and those few like him, do not.
The physical toll of violent anti-abortion speech and other action is quite real in the sense that human beings have been killed or wounded, families devastated, and facilities damaged. But as true as that is, about 7,000 incidents in over forty years, including eight murders, 17 attempted murders, 42 bombings and 182 arsons does not threaten our society; and if that were the totality of it, all of that wouldn’t even threaten Roe and a woman’s right to exercise basic and rational control over her own body.
What threatens THAT is a well-orchestrated set of initiatives by some state legislatures to deny women the ability to obtain an abortion that they want and that complies with the rules set down by Roe – justified by religious convictions. This is the most fundamental kind of attack on our basic constitutional framework BESIDES being a threat to women specifically. It has the potential to destroy us. But the deranged actions of Robert L. Dear Jr., and those few like him, do not.
65
By the way, many rabid anti-abortion activists who egg on this sort of behavior are WOMEN such as Sarah Palin and Carly Fiorina, whose lies fall on willing ears.
We both agree that a woman should control her own body, but these scolds want to control other peoples' for their own livelihood as hatemongers.
We both agree that a woman should control her own body, but these scolds want to control other peoples' for their own livelihood as hatemongers.
20
We survived for 200 years before abortion was legal and we'll survive very nicely if "abortion on demand", late term abortions and live birth abortions are curtailed (to only cases of rape, incest, health of the mother or fetal deformity).
Shame on you, Richard, for saying otherwise.
Shame on you, Richard, for saying otherwise.
1
Concerned:
The America that survived for a lot of those 200 years basically had women enslaved to men, unable to exercise the vote or exert any serious influence on the arc our country would take -- and for much of the remaining time we were overcoming the heritage of that ancient enslavement. Basically, we were then what Middle Eastern Muslims are today -- and more than anything else, this is what causes us to condemn them.
I'm not wild about abortion myself as general matter. But I strongly support Roe as a brilliant compromise that few seem to like, for one reason or another, because it struck a rational balance between what I regard as the legitimate rights of women to decide their own fates and the use of their own bodies, and the right of the state to regulate a human process that affects us all as well as the modalities of death.
We risk a lot by disturbing the imperfect balance that Roe imposes. We risk a holy war -- American women aren't going back under the chadors and we have no business trying to force them to.
The America that survived for a lot of those 200 years basically had women enslaved to men, unable to exercise the vote or exert any serious influence on the arc our country would take -- and for much of the remaining time we were overcoming the heritage of that ancient enslavement. Basically, we were then what Middle Eastern Muslims are today -- and more than anything else, this is what causes us to condemn them.
I'm not wild about abortion myself as general matter. But I strongly support Roe as a brilliant compromise that few seem to like, for one reason or another, because it struck a rational balance between what I regard as the legitimate rights of women to decide their own fates and the use of their own bodies, and the right of the state to regulate a human process that affects us all as well as the modalities of death.
We risk a lot by disturbing the imperfect balance that Roe imposes. We risk a holy war -- American women aren't going back under the chadors and we have no business trying to force them to.
1
The inability for Americans to engage in civil discourse....for politicians to be truthful....for anti-"Muslim" (many others are incorrectly grouped under that umbrella) and anti-Syrian...for the NRA to take responsibility for what they sell (and don't sell)...virulent demonstrations outside Planned Parenthood....
One can go on.
It seems as if we are heading towards our own version of Kristallnacht.
One can go on.
It seems as if we are heading towards our own version of Kristallnacht.
9
Just today on Fox News Megan Kelly and Carly Fiorina were once again indicating the the video was true rather than doctored. It's time these people were sued for liable and endangering the lives of people. - LIVING PEOPLE, NOT FETUSES!
29
There is no difference between anti abortion terrorists and activists that operate outside outside the law and ISIL, DAESH FARC or any other criminal terrorist endeavor. Free speech has limits and they have superseded that limit long ago. Time to deal with these people we do ISIL and the place to start is the politicians who promote this climate of hate. Abortion is legal, if you don't like it don't have one and mind your won business and live and let live. Women have a right to their bodies without hysterical interference by wannabe do gooders, evangelical knowitalls, and power crazy politicians in order to raise more money for thier hair brained schemes.
16
One problem with your rhetoric, 150 years ago slavery was legal so your position then would be as follows?
Slavery is legal, if you don't like it don't own one and mind your own business and live and let live. Slave owners have a right to their property without hysterical interference by wannabe do gooders, evangelical know it alls, and power crazy politicians in order to raise more money for their hair brained schemes.
Just because something is legal does not automatically make it right, and those who do not agree with a law have a right and obligation to take action to try to change it.
Slavery is legal, if you don't like it don't own one and mind your own business and live and let live. Slave owners have a right to their property without hysterical interference by wannabe do gooders, evangelical know it alls, and power crazy politicians in order to raise more money for their hair brained schemes.
Just because something is legal does not automatically make it right, and those who do not agree with a law have a right and obligation to take action to try to change it.
Reader: In considering this oped piece also consider the NYT review of a documentary written by critic Manhola Dargis: "Abortion as as Frontline in the Culture Wars" 10/3/07. Review available at NYT website. (I believe it reasonable to infer Ms. Dargis is pro-choice.)
Ms. Dargis describes film as "an unblinking look at the violent fight over abortion". "[O]ne that explores its subject with far more depth and breadth than the usual documentary." And one that "vividly delineates how religious-fundamentalists terrorists take root in a country".
Dargis describes the photo of a woman who died of a botched abortion in a motel room.
But she also describes the film's clip of an abortion on a 20 week fetus. Including the doctor "sorting through a tray of fetal parts, including a perfect looking hand and foot...[and] the severed fetal head." As to which she comments the scene "reinforces what what an abstraction the term pro-choice really his. Abortion does end the life of something-an embryo, a baby, God's creation a blob of cells-and who has dominion over it and the fully formed human being carrying that something inside her body."
Reader: Whether pro-choice or not also consider Gallup's report that 70% of Americans believe that late them abortions should be banned.
Ms. Dargis describes film as "an unblinking look at the violent fight over abortion". "[O]ne that explores its subject with far more depth and breadth than the usual documentary." And one that "vividly delineates how religious-fundamentalists terrorists take root in a country".
Dargis describes the photo of a woman who died of a botched abortion in a motel room.
But she also describes the film's clip of an abortion on a 20 week fetus. Including the doctor "sorting through a tray of fetal parts, including a perfect looking hand and foot...[and] the severed fetal head." As to which she comments the scene "reinforces what what an abstraction the term pro-choice really his. Abortion does end the life of something-an embryo, a baby, God's creation a blob of cells-and who has dominion over it and the fully formed human being carrying that something inside her body."
Reader: Whether pro-choice or not also consider Gallup's report that 70% of Americans believe that late them abortions should be banned.
2
Note that those poll numbers have been consistent for over FORTY YEARS.
Yet people here actively lie and deceive and say that "polls show Americans support abortion".
Funny, when lefties lie, it is no problem. When right wingers lie (yes, they do -- everyone lies sometimes), it is a Federal case, and makes them "terrorists".
Yet people here actively lie and deceive and say that "polls show Americans support abortion".
Funny, when lefties lie, it is no problem. When right wingers lie (yes, they do -- everyone lies sometimes), it is a Federal case, and makes them "terrorists".
Sir: You know abortions after 20 weeks are exceedingly rare. Virtually without exception any abortions performed after that term are for life-saving emergency reasons. Your evidence is bogus. That is why 'late term' pregnancies will not ever be outlawed. Your religious beliefs are never a legal consideration. Women have a right to privacy. Your religious concerns may not condemn them.
4
Ms. Pollitt's op-ed piece was about the use of terror and those who enable it through their incendiary rhetoric. Your response doesn't address her argument.
Late-term abortions like the one you describe are rare and subject to to state regulation; most women who face an unwanted pregnancies seek abortions in the first trimester. But anti-abortion terrorists make no distinction between abortions performed in the earliest stages of pregnancy and late-term abortions.
In fact, anti-abortion activists push for laws that delay abortions by requiring separate office visits for consultation and "counseling," make women travel long distances so procedures are harder to schedule and thus may occur later in the pregnancy, and attack Planned Parenthood, a primary source of birth control pills which prevent unwanted pregnancy.
But the bottom line is that intimidation and terror tactics against providers of legal abortion services and the women who use them are inexcusable. And those who aid, abet, and excuse it must be called out for who and what they are.
Late-term abortions like the one you describe are rare and subject to to state regulation; most women who face an unwanted pregnancies seek abortions in the first trimester. But anti-abortion terrorists make no distinction between abortions performed in the earliest stages of pregnancy and late-term abortions.
In fact, anti-abortion activists push for laws that delay abortions by requiring separate office visits for consultation and "counseling," make women travel long distances so procedures are harder to schedule and thus may occur later in the pregnancy, and attack Planned Parenthood, a primary source of birth control pills which prevent unwanted pregnancy.
But the bottom line is that intimidation and terror tactics against providers of legal abortion services and the women who use them are inexcusable. And those who aid, abet, and excuse it must be called out for who and what they are.
4
Linda is absolutely correct. My mother worked at an abortion clinic for over 20 years, and she knew for a fact that no small number of the people who cursed and spat at her every day on her way to work had had or been a party to their own abortions. You have to understand that the "pro-life" movement is a financial and political juggernaut and that, for its very survival, it preys on the emotions of the ignorant and the unstable. This is why we will never be able to have a rational dialogue about something that we would all like to do away with. Nobody is "pro" abortion, but criminalizing it does not make it go away. Every study ever done on the subject tells us that abortion rates remain the same, whether it is legal or not. Witness the fact that in Texas, where most clinics have recently been forced to close, there have been thousands of women who, deprived of access to safe and legal methods, have attempted to self abort (yes, we are talking coat hangers here). There are two things that have and will significantly reduced abortion rates. They are (1) comprehensive sex education starting at the pre-teen age level (this means real education, not abstinence training), and (2) free and easy access to contraceptives, especially for teenagers and young adults. I'll give you one guess as to who is rabidly opposed to both of these things.
31
The contradiction of opposing abortion but getting one anyway seems to me to be the same as the contradiction of belief/faith in spite of the clear evidence that it is foolish at best, which allows these people to be religious to begin with.
What good does yet another oped like this do? Why bother asking do we want to live in a country where extremists use violence to deny women legal health care? NO! We don’t, and neither do most Americans, as you cite in the Pew poll.
But much or our politics and rhetoric is dominated by rw Gop radical extremists---in h/c, the economy, taxes, regulations, jobs, criminal justice, religion in politics, and or course gun safety.
The US has an extremist campaign financing system defying common sense, where money equals free speech. This is why our law makers aren't responsive to majority opinion on most things. And why we spawn the crazy Gop lineup.
So Ms. Pollitt, what’s the strategy for combating this? How many times must we get beaten over the head with how violent, backward and undemocratic the US has become? Any ideas for change?
There are likely many abortion opponents who are totally opposed to the violence or any coercion. They should be interviewed on our media.
And let’s hear testimony from people who’ve lived abroad in the modern, more sane democracies where abortion is simply provided with their guaranteed h/c for all, with no rw parties exploiting the issue, inspiring demented killers.
We need examples of positive role models of societies that work.
Instead we get the opposing poles—the spokeswoman for Planned Parenthood on TV vs the radical rw Gop crazies running to be our president.
But much or our politics and rhetoric is dominated by rw Gop radical extremists---in h/c, the economy, taxes, regulations, jobs, criminal justice, religion in politics, and or course gun safety.
The US has an extremist campaign financing system defying common sense, where money equals free speech. This is why our law makers aren't responsive to majority opinion on most things. And why we spawn the crazy Gop lineup.
So Ms. Pollitt, what’s the strategy for combating this? How many times must we get beaten over the head with how violent, backward and undemocratic the US has become? Any ideas for change?
There are likely many abortion opponents who are totally opposed to the violence or any coercion. They should be interviewed on our media.
And let’s hear testimony from people who’ve lived abroad in the modern, more sane democracies where abortion is simply provided with their guaranteed h/c for all, with no rw parties exploiting the issue, inspiring demented killers.
We need examples of positive role models of societies that work.
Instead we get the opposing poles—the spokeswoman for Planned Parenthood on TV vs the radical rw Gop crazies running to be our president.
11
Even allowing the PP spokeswoman to correct the casual misogyny is a step up at this point. The liars have had the media floor for too long and should be corrected every time.
3
To me this is why educating people and providing contraception is going to make the choice to end a pregnancy more rare. Demonizing women, shutting down availability to clinics, politicians employing dangerous rhetoric, and anti choice people making fake films for fundraising is the road to someone getting killed, as just happened in our town. Hate blinds these folks and empowers domestic terrorists like Robert Dear to think he is in "The Army of God". Unacceptable.
1
By the same token if we had limited homosexuals from pleading their case for equality then we would still be stuck in the dark ages. Some viewed their pleas as a violent attack on morals and religion.
1
"Do we want to live in a country where...people whose words may well spur them [extremist] to action insist they have nothing to do with it?"
Are you proposing to silence people who criticize abortion, but who insist that they are not responsible for unstable or extreme persons who carry out violence?
Are you proposing to silence people who criticize abortion, but who insist that they are not responsible for unstable or extreme persons who carry out violence?
2
Let's put it this way. When was the last time men received health care services in a place that provided bullet proof vests for "just in case"? This whole scene is preposterous - and to the people in office or seeking office who promote this scenario - this is not about freedom - and we will never accept your reasoning of that sort. As a health care provider who has served for decades, this makes me sick. Women who are harassed and threatened for reasons of health care - what kind of nation is this and why is this allowed?
If you don't like "murder" stop sending our young people to wars that have not accomplished anything. Their lives count too in case you haven't noticed.
If you don't like "murder" stop sending our young people to wars that have not accomplished anything. Their lives count too in case you haven't noticed.
32
ALL lives matter! But soldiers fighting in defense of their homeland are not forced to do so; if they have a moral objection to war, they can be conscientious objectors. Also - as young as they may be - they are adults who are capable of making their own decisions. A far cry from killing 5-month old infants!
It is hard to express in words the extent of the admiration I have for the courageous doctors and personnel working in the Planned Parenthood clinics. Despite threats to their lives and the most extreme forms of verbal intimidation, they continue to provide the health services (including legal abortion) that so many women, particularly the poor, so desperately need. They are everyday heroes who continue to be a bastion against those like Huckabee, Cruz, Fiorina et al. who would turn this country into some kind misogynistic Christian theocracy.
32
They will need your admiration more and more, as the majority of the public believe that laws relating to abortion rights - as they currently stand, and especially in the context of medical advances which disprove the old concepts of non-viability - will make late-term abortion acts morally and physically repulsive to consistently growing numbers of people, democrats and republicans alike.
Think about it from a Christian perspective: It seems more than a bit ironic that there is a tremendous uproar when a crazy man goes into an abortion clinic and kills people. But everyday lives are ended in abortion clinics, and there is no uproar and few tears shed for those inconvenient children. I personally feel more sorry for all the children whose lives are cut short, so their mothers can pursue the American dream without them.
5
You feel "more sorry" for mindless embryos than for three adults, all of whom had families and children and lives and hopes and dreams?
How is that even possible?
In your spare time, consider googling the word "empathy." I also recommend that you devote some time to considering how blessed you are to have been born a man, because you will never have to live under the constant threat of having your dreams derailed by an unwanted pregnancy. You are so blithely dismissive of the desire of women to control their lives, something you take entirely for granted.
How is that even possible?
In your spare time, consider googling the word "empathy." I also recommend that you devote some time to considering how blessed you are to have been born a man, because you will never have to live under the constant threat of having your dreams derailed by an unwanted pregnancy. You are so blithely dismissive of the desire of women to control their lives, something you take entirely for granted.
3
The "Christian perspective" that you mention is irrelevant. This nation is not a theocracy. Your religious beliefs have nothing to do with someone else exercising their constitutional rights. Every woman has a constitutional right to an abortion if she wants one. Keep your religion to yourself. Thank you.
1
Question your view of women for starters. And abortion is not killing toddlers no matter how much you want the visuals to skew to that. At least be honest with your disagreements.
Your assumption that people are out just living it up and "pursuing the American dream" whatever that is in your head, is code. There will be people who abuse things in this world, no matter what. To put American women in some big lump of "killers" says everything about you and the beliefs you have decided to adopt. Not women. I wonder if you are as careful when our cavalier politicians march our kids off to war. The Christian community is oddly pro-war and torture, so some of the abortion talk just sounds hollow to me as "a real concern".
Your assumption that people are out just living it up and "pursuing the American dream" whatever that is in your head, is code. There will be people who abuse things in this world, no matter what. To put American women in some big lump of "killers" says everything about you and the beliefs you have decided to adopt. Not women. I wonder if you are as careful when our cavalier politicians march our kids off to war. The Christian community is oddly pro-war and torture, so some of the abortion talk just sounds hollow to me as "a real concern".
The buzz words reproductive health and freedom of choice are really words of death because by its very definition abortion is the termination of something that is alive. Duh!
6
'by its very definition abortion is the termination of something that is alive'.
But not a separate life, only a potential one. By your definition, taking out someone's appendix is the 'termination of something that is alive'.
Come to that, yYour dinner undoubtedly involved 'the termination of something that is alive.' Something that was, unlike a foetus, not a possible but an actual individual life, albeit of another species. A sentient creature that quite probably led a life of miserable torture in a factory farm before being brutally butchered.
Yet, however much I abhor your choices, as an ethical vegan, I do not have the right to shoot you.
Duh, indeed.
But not a separate life, only a potential one. By your definition, taking out someone's appendix is the 'termination of something that is alive'.
Come to that, yYour dinner undoubtedly involved 'the termination of something that is alive.' Something that was, unlike a foetus, not a possible but an actual individual life, albeit of another species. A sentient creature that quite probably led a life of miserable torture in a factory farm before being brutally butchered.
Yet, however much I abhor your choices, as an ethical vegan, I do not have the right to shoot you.
Duh, indeed.
I am one who sees these violent "pro-lifers" as little more than psychopaths skillfully and purposefully manipulated by authoritarian clergy. I have seen the instigators hovering about in their clerical attire, organizing these so-called protests. Those protests are no more than street-rabble tactics to physically intimidate those who refuse to cringe, bow and donate tribute to the robed mind-masters on Sunday morning.
The would-be mind-masters are still furious because contraceptives now can be promoted and sold openly. I can remember when they were not -- even when (in currently liberal Massachusetts) the state police were appropriated to raid clinics where such disobedience to bishopric mandate was being carried on. There were signs posted everywhere urging ban of "birth control" as though it were some evil subversive movement. There are those who would relish a return to those days.
The would-be mind-masters are still furious because contraceptives now can be promoted and sold openly. I can remember when they were not -- even when (in currently liberal Massachusetts) the state police were appropriated to raid clinics where such disobedience to bishopric mandate was being carried on. There were signs posted everywhere urging ban of "birth control" as though it were some evil subversive movement. There are those who would relish a return to those days.
20
These screaming psychotics are the foot soldiers in a war to break down separation of church and state in the US.
1
I don't think too many educated people are demonstrating against contraception; some may be, but only a minute number of religious fanatics are doing that. The vast majority of demonstrators are taking a stand against late term abortions of fetuses which, had they simply been born prematurely, would be referred to as infants. Therein lies the sad and ugly hypocrisy.
We are being held hostage by an armed and dangerous group of pseudo-religious right wing ideologues. And no one is doing anything about it. Does this seem strange to anyone other than me? Will we ever be free of these angry gun people who believe they have the right, the duty, to take a gun and "fix" things as in a western movie? We are descending into madness and the folks in charge seem unwilling to address the problem. If they do the fear is the right-wing ideologues will vote them out of office. Some one or some group has to take charge of this mess, these internal terrorists and put it to and end. There must be a few responsible people still left in politics.
22
The violence against PP and other providers should be called mysongynism and classified as a hate crime against women!
23
Violence is already a crime. However, the pro-abortion crowd wants dissent classified as a hate crime. Interesting point of view.
1
I absolutely agree that violence against PP is vile, just as what PP does "in the name" of women, is also vile. Violence begets violence and it is time for it to stop. That kind of warped thinking equates to the horrors that took place in the Crusades by the Catholic church, in the name of religion. None of that had anything at all to do with the tenets of Christianity - in fact, it was all in strict opposition to the actual teachings of Christ! As with this purported "war on women", the crusades were motivated but nothing more than greed and power.
With specific reference to pro life stance being a crime against women, what protection does a father have if his partner wants to abort their baby, and he is able and willing to take full responsibility? The answer is . . . no rights at all!
With specific reference to pro life stance being a crime against women, what protection does a father have if his partner wants to abort their baby, and he is able and willing to take full responsibility? The answer is . . . no rights at all!
Great article, Katha. Now the hard question.
I know that censorship is a sensitive subject for you and the magazine you have been the publisher of (the Nation). The left has been subject to serious censorship for a very long time, peaking during the McCarthy blacklist but common before and after that era.
However, this article shows the limitation of the justification for the expansive definition of freedom of speech: the marketplace of ideas does not always work. An exchange of ideas will not stop people who may not explicitly promote hatred and violence, but whose speech clearly has that effect and is intended to have that effect. We, as a society, need to find a way to limit that type of speech. It may be difficult to define what's prohibited, but until we impose consequences on those who intend to, and do, provoke violence, this type of speech will continue. What's more, politicians like Huckabee and Cruz will still sympathize with the extremists because those sentiments will generate votes.
If you are not proposing that we legally curtail hateful and provocative speech, please tell us what is your remedy, beyond trying to shame a couple of politicians in a newspaper they may not even read. If you are proposing that we legally curtail hateful and provocative speech (which I hope you are), please start the conversation about how to do that.
I know that censorship is a sensitive subject for you and the magazine you have been the publisher of (the Nation). The left has been subject to serious censorship for a very long time, peaking during the McCarthy blacklist but common before and after that era.
However, this article shows the limitation of the justification for the expansive definition of freedom of speech: the marketplace of ideas does not always work. An exchange of ideas will not stop people who may not explicitly promote hatred and violence, but whose speech clearly has that effect and is intended to have that effect. We, as a society, need to find a way to limit that type of speech. It may be difficult to define what's prohibited, but until we impose consequences on those who intend to, and do, provoke violence, this type of speech will continue. What's more, politicians like Huckabee and Cruz will still sympathize with the extremists because those sentiments will generate votes.
If you are not proposing that we legally curtail hateful and provocative speech, please tell us what is your remedy, beyond trying to shame a couple of politicians in a newspaper they may not even read. If you are proposing that we legally curtail hateful and provocative speech (which I hope you are), please start the conversation about how to do that.
27
Dangerous concept that of trying to courtail 'hate or violent' speech. Yes, there should be some type of legal frame against it but as soon as you have the law, someone will want to take advantage of it and use for illegal/inmoral intentions, that's when the good pays for the bad.
I, for one, certainly hope Ms Pollitt would NOT propose legal restrictions on speech. I doubt she expects to change the minds of people like Fiorina and Huckabee. But she might hope to convince more morally responsible people that such politicians are not to be supported, no matter how many tax-cuts they promise you or how many deregulations or contracts they promise your company. If those of us who do not make our livelihoods on demagoguery stop supporting and start condemning those who do, they will either follow the money, or crawl back into their holes.
3
There are very clear legal penalties for stalking, and sexual harassment. Clearly applicable during many of these ongoing clinic blockades. I believe reproductive rights strategists need to do more to pursue that angle.
2
I want to highlight one point in this commentary, because it is rarely made yet hugely important. If someone says "they are killing millions of babies" or claims abortions are equal to the holocaust (or similar statements as made by most prominent Republicans), there are logically only 3 possibilities:
(1) They are lying and don't at all believe what they are saying (i.e., just inciting hatred for their own political gain).
(2) They believe what they are saying, but they don't think that killing millions of babies or recreating the holocaust is a big enough deal to justify violence to prevent it.
(3) They believe what they are saying, and they do think that this means that people should take up arms to prevent any more abortions.
So, the next time someone interviews one of those GOP "leaders," let's ask them which of these 3 cases apply (since they clearly cover every possible option). Also, if (2) applies, please do ask them if they really would not shoot a baby hostage taker if it were the only way to save the life of the baby. And if (3) applies, please ask them if they accept personal responsibility for the dead in Colorado Springs... and ask them why they are not taking up arms and storming Planned Parenthood themselves.
Obviously, we all know that the only true answer is (1), but I would just like to have that on the record (so we can refer to that next time they say abortions are equal to killing babies).
(1) They are lying and don't at all believe what they are saying (i.e., just inciting hatred for their own political gain).
(2) They believe what they are saying, but they don't think that killing millions of babies or recreating the holocaust is a big enough deal to justify violence to prevent it.
(3) They believe what they are saying, and they do think that this means that people should take up arms to prevent any more abortions.
So, the next time someone interviews one of those GOP "leaders," let's ask them which of these 3 cases apply (since they clearly cover every possible option). Also, if (2) applies, please do ask them if they really would not shoot a baby hostage taker if it were the only way to save the life of the baby. And if (3) applies, please ask them if they accept personal responsibility for the dead in Colorado Springs... and ask them why they are not taking up arms and storming Planned Parenthood themselves.
Obviously, we all know that the only true answer is (1), but I would just like to have that on the record (so we can refer to that next time they say abortions are equal to killing babies).
6
I'd bet a lot of money that the "protestors" outside clinics are paid by the radical religious right. Does anyone know?
10
The right wing is a business that pays its employees. The left, such as it is, is just manned by volunteers.
1
They certainly are not paid by anyone -- they are volunteers -- and they stand quietly. The ones I have seen on Bleecker St. In NYC are young, passionate people who respect life and want to save innocent lives. They are honorable to many of us.
I have met (and talked to) a number of such protesters, and it is my considered opinion that they are entirely sincere and not paid workers. It is hard work, day in and day out -- for 40 years! -- it is hard to imagine anyone bothering to do this as a paid job, standing outdoors in harsh winter weather.
Until we begin to shame these terrorists for their speech and acts, this will continue.
Just as we have cut cigarette use by taking out the cool factor and stating facts over belief we have cut down on use and harm caused by such.
Just as we have reduced the harm from drunk driving and seatbelt use.
We need to end this constant spewing of hate 24/7/365 from the airwaves.
Yes, they have a 1st. amend. right to say such.
Just as we have a right to denigrate and despise and belittle such rhetoric. Turn off those channels. Don't support the corp. advertising on said propaganda machines. Write to those corp. explaining your withdraw of money.
The Flush Rush campaign is working!
We can reduce the amount of hate being spread by the pulpits every Sunday if we truly care.
Stand up! Speak out! This is not the civil society we wish to live in.
They are not the Moral Majority nor have they ever been.
Get! Out! and Vote!
Just as we have cut cigarette use by taking out the cool factor and stating facts over belief we have cut down on use and harm caused by such.
Just as we have reduced the harm from drunk driving and seatbelt use.
We need to end this constant spewing of hate 24/7/365 from the airwaves.
Yes, they have a 1st. amend. right to say such.
Just as we have a right to denigrate and despise and belittle such rhetoric. Turn off those channels. Don't support the corp. advertising on said propaganda machines. Write to those corp. explaining your withdraw of money.
The Flush Rush campaign is working!
We can reduce the amount of hate being spread by the pulpits every Sunday if we truly care.
Stand up! Speak out! This is not the civil society we wish to live in.
They are not the Moral Majority nor have they ever been.
Get! Out! and Vote!
16
I heard on national news yesterday that the GOP has had to drop their protest of Planned Parenthood bc too many Americans now associate the GOP w the murderer in Colorado last week.
The NYT wrote yesterday: "Mr. McCarthy did not retreat from his party’s criticism of Planned Parenthood, but his remarks on Monday signaled a recognition by Republican leaders in Congress that a renewed debate over the organization would be ill advised after the shooting in Colorado Springs on Friday, in which a police officer and two civilians were killed."
Hope America keeps up the association of the GOP with Mr. Dear and keep their opinions about how I handle my body to themselves! It's MY body!
The NYT wrote yesterday: "Mr. McCarthy did not retreat from his party’s criticism of Planned Parenthood, but his remarks on Monday signaled a recognition by Republican leaders in Congress that a renewed debate over the organization would be ill advised after the shooting in Colorado Springs on Friday, in which a police officer and two civilians were killed."
Hope America keeps up the association of the GOP with Mr. Dear and keep their opinions about how I handle my body to themselves! It's MY body!
22
After all these years, why do we still allow these people to terrorize us?! WHY?! Our rights are being ERODED already. How many have tried self-aborting and died in the 'Protecting Women's Health' Red states? Anyone know?
Anyone remember WHY abortion was legalized in the first place?? How many women need to die? How is forced childbirth even debated in this 'Home of the Free' constitutional democracy?
Keep your religion out of my life & sexual organs and I will
Anyone remember WHY abortion was legalized in the first place?? How many women need to die? How is forced childbirth even debated in this 'Home of the Free' constitutional democracy?
Keep your religion out of my life & sexual organs and I will
25
When are you going to get a grip and correctly call it Unplanned Parenthood. The original sin is not the act, but the turning away from the Gift of Life.
2
Beldar, I strongly suggest that when/if you ever get pregnant-- planned or not-- that you refrain from having an abortion since you are so firmly against it. Beyond that, keep you nose out of the personal business of other people (women).
9
What you consider a gift is an incredible burden to women in poverty who cannot support themselves, let alone a child. Who is going to be there to help support each mother and her unplanned "gift?"
4
Mr Cruz is a pro-lifer. But Ted Cruz welcomes to his camp Troy Newman who calls for capital punishment for physicians who perform abortion. Cruz is also close to Pastor Kevin Swanson who calls for the capital punishment of gays and lesbians. It can this be concluded that pro-life has a very restricted meaning for Ted Cruz.
22
Teddy Cruzifixed is the most ridiculous example of the recent exaltation of sophistry in academia I can think of. Gibberish is genius to these fools.
Can the media just stop calling them pro-lifers? We're all pro-life. Call them what they are: anti-abortionists. Don't alternate anti-abortionists with pro-life to make the story more readable. Just anti-abortionists all the time. Or anti-choice which is what they are, except of course when it comes to them or their daughters.
30
I've said the same thing for years. Everybody is pro-life. What kind of idiot would be anti-life? Nobody goes out and has an abortion just for fun.
The issue is choice and the freedom to control a crucial aspect of your life. And, once again, it's hilarious how the very people screaming "freedom" and "liberty" all the time are the same who make up the Christian Caliphate which is trying to take your freedoms away.
There's a book, I forget the name, whose thesis is that the middle and left have done themselves and this nation a great disservice by letting the wrong-headed-right get away with renaming a long list of things with inflammatory rhetoric that has no basis in science (aka - reality). It's time for journalists to get this book and use it.
The issue is choice and the freedom to control a crucial aspect of your life. And, once again, it's hilarious how the very people screaming "freedom" and "liberty" all the time are the same who make up the Christian Caliphate which is trying to take your freedoms away.
There's a book, I forget the name, whose thesis is that the middle and left have done themselves and this nation a great disservice by letting the wrong-headed-right get away with renaming a long list of things with inflammatory rhetoric that has no basis in science (aka - reality). It's time for journalists to get this book and use it.
I call 'em "pro-forced-birth" as they literally want to force women into pregnancies and giving birth to a child, against their will.
3
Call them body-snatchers. They want to operate other people's bodies for them, under pain and penalty of law.
The thing about terrorism is that it does work whether it's practices or perpetrated by a group of Muslim extremists or a Christian extremist. These individuals don't care about dying but those on the receiving end of their violence do and when our government decides to turn the other way and ignore the root cases.....violent religious and political leaders who hate women and humans, generally, and want to control every ones lives with their beliefs as to how people should live. When you have candidates and Bishops who demean and demonize women who only want to have health care and the freedom to chose, when we allow people like Fiarina and Huckabee, to name a few, to lie and smugly ignore the impact of their words we legitimize their religious fanaticism.
It is time for Americans to say no more. If Ms. Fiarina or Mr. Cruz want to run a church they should do so but running this country is not the job for a relgious fanatic. It is also time thst we tell the Bishops and pastors others thst tax exemptions are over. Pay your taxes and follow the laws like everyone else.
It is time for Americans to say no more. If Ms. Fiarina or Mr. Cruz want to run a church they should do so but running this country is not the job for a relgious fanatic. It is also time thst we tell the Bishops and pastors others thst tax exemptions are over. Pay your taxes and follow the laws like everyone else.
20
The flip side of inciting violence against Planned Parenthood and other legitimate health clinics is the funding and support given to phony clinics -aka "crisis pregnancy centers." Many states provide tax-payer funds to these bogus non-profits that are deceptive, and in worst cases very harmful to women at the very time when they need truth and real assistance. Notice how these places are never the target of right wing nut jobs? God help us if a Ted Cruz became president. Look up Dominionism if you want to know why.
15
This is typical left wing propoganda. There was not violent rhetoric against Planned Parenthood; just a normal criticism of their practice of very late term abortions. Many people, perhaps a majority, finds the harvesting of baby parts abhorrent, and NYT can't blame them for expressing their disapproval, loud and clear. That is what political discourse is all about.
Of course the muderer is mentally unstable. The videos are meant to inform, even when the act of informing is gruesome to many. Deceptively edited? They had to be edited in order to be shown in short clips; the entire videos are posted on a website. Only PP and its supporters claim this was deceptive.
Of course the muderer is mentally unstable. The videos are meant to inform, even when the act of informing is gruesome to many. Deceptively edited? They had to be edited in order to be shown in short clips; the entire videos are posted on a website. Only PP and its supporters claim this was deceptive.
4
Can I get some of whatever it is that you appear to be smoking? "Left wing propaganda"? Really? Please don't speak for "the majority of people" because I don't think you've check with "the majority". There is NO harvesting of baby body parts. That's blatant RIGHT-WING extremist propaganda. And you can always claim someone like Dear is "mentally unstable". But being "mentally unstable" doesn't absolve the abortion opponents of responsibility.
13
"Many people, perhaps a majority, finds the harvesting of baby parts abhorrent, and NYT can't blame them for expressing their disapproval, loud and clear."
Is this what you call the murder of three people and the wounding of nine - disapproval!! Shame on you and others who hold your views. I don't care what you think, you don't have a right to murder! And about the shooter being mentally ill - this is the typical excuse for the violent misdeeds of the right. Mr. Dear is not mentally ill, he is a loner who found validity in the abhorrent and constant hate speech of people who want to pull this country apart. Also, by the way get your facts straight. Planned Parenthood does not harvest baby parts for profit.
Is this what you call the murder of three people and the wounding of nine - disapproval!! Shame on you and others who hold your views. I don't care what you think, you don't have a right to murder! And about the shooter being mentally ill - this is the typical excuse for the violent misdeeds of the right. Mr. Dear is not mentally ill, he is a loner who found validity in the abhorrent and constant hate speech of people who want to pull this country apart. Also, by the way get your facts straight. Planned Parenthood does not harvest baby parts for profit.
13
Since when does a majority of Americans wanting something count for Republicans in Congress? Supposedly, we have representative government. Republicans in Congress, however, are a small coterie of ideologues trying to set up America as a private club for their friends and families when they fail to serve the majority interests of the American citizenry. On abortion and on climate change and on better controls on the sale of guns, to name but three items, Republicans in Congress decidedly are not representing the American people. Who do they think they are, and why are they said to be "representing" anyone but themselves?
15
I'm struck by the fact that no one dismissed the Paris attackers as simply unstable people with poor mental health.
27
Excellent point. Our federal justice department needs to start calling this domestic terrorism, equivalent to muslim extremist terrorism.
3
The violence last week in Colorado Springs, as well as the violence that has been occurred at other PP offices and abortion clinics, is nothing more than republican inspired right wing extremist evangelical Christian terrorism. There is no difference in the tactics used by these faux Christians and the tactics used by the Muslim extremists who engage in wanton acts of violence all over the world. These acts of violence are designed to terrorize otherwise peaceful and law abiding citizens and are, by their very nature, nothing more than jihadist-like terrorism. Its purpose is not to overthrow an oppressive government, but to prevent peaceful and innocent people from enjoying the freedom to live their lives without fear. The promotion of such terrorism by the republican candidates is as shameful and disgusting as they are. All of them who, by their words, have inspired such terrorism, are nothing more than common rabble rousers.
27
Numbers matter when trying to distinguish between a pattern that reflects the inevitable, often unbalanced, violent extremist– and a popular movement of thousands of very sane, but ideological twisted, masses, like Islamic terrorism.
The numbers: "In the United States, violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eleven people" (Wikipedia: Anti-abortion violence)
11 people.
Again.
11 people- in approx 40 years.
11 murdered people is a terrible thing. It goes without saying. Every human life is precious.
There have been other attempts and other sorts of non lethal violence as well.
But- it's not the same as Islamic terrorism. 11 people killed in 40 years by mostly obviously mentally ill people, is a totally different phenomenon than an extremist movement of thousands of sane, but ideologically twisted terrorists who kill 11 people before breakfast on a daily basis. It's offensive to the thousands who have been killed and tortured by them to compare it.
The numbers: "In the United States, violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eleven people" (Wikipedia: Anti-abortion violence)
11 people.
Again.
11 people- in approx 40 years.
11 murdered people is a terrible thing. It goes without saying. Every human life is precious.
There have been other attempts and other sorts of non lethal violence as well.
But- it's not the same as Islamic terrorism. 11 people killed in 40 years by mostly obviously mentally ill people, is a totally different phenomenon than an extremist movement of thousands of sane, but ideologically twisted terrorists who kill 11 people before breakfast on a daily basis. It's offensive to the thousands who have been killed and tortured by them to compare it.
23
The principle and the offense matter more than the relative #'s of deaths resulting from the terrorism each side practices. This is domestic terror, and it should carry the max penalty.
4
There have been as many as 7000 attacks of vandalism, including bombings and arson, not to mention violent threats and intimidation against PP and its patients.
7000.
7000.
3
That's a great post, thank you Jack M
1
From the piece (referring to the suspect):
--Sen. Ted Cruz: He is reported to be a “transgendered leftist activist.”--
This singular statement should disqualify Sen. Cruz from serving as president of the United States, it should disqualify him from the US Senate, and it should disqualify him from serving as my town's dogcatcher.
What has happened to my country?
--Sen. Ted Cruz: He is reported to be a “transgendered leftist activist.”--
This singular statement should disqualify Sen. Cruz from serving as president of the United States, it should disqualify him from the US Senate, and it should disqualify him from serving as my town's dogcatcher.
What has happened to my country?
36
One could say that those who make false and outrageous claims are inciting to murder by those who have little insight or social controls. Just as when Sarah Palin distributed a map with a target on Gabreille Giffors and she was shot. It is a sad state of affairs when those who primarily are the ones inciting the unstable are elected officials of our government.
16
Though I believe abortion should be kept legal, I also respect the people who believe otherwise, believe that their point of view is legitimate, and believe in their right to express that view accordingly.
It doesn't matter that Ms. Pollitt and others like her deem expression of the so-called "pro-life" view as violent rhetoric, or harmful in some way. Who are they to decide?
No faction or quarter of society should dictate standards of speech to others. It's just plain wrong and often hypocritical.
Forget, Ms. Pollitt. Implicating culpability to the larger anti-abortion movement to the crimes of the scuzzy Mr. Dear is more lame than offensive, but indeed it is offensive; plus intellectually lazy as well.
It doesn't matter that Ms. Pollitt and others like her deem expression of the so-called "pro-life" view as violent rhetoric, or harmful in some way. Who are they to decide?
No faction or quarter of society should dictate standards of speech to others. It's just plain wrong and often hypocritical.
Forget, Ms. Pollitt. Implicating culpability to the larger anti-abortion movement to the crimes of the scuzzy Mr. Dear is more lame than offensive, but indeed it is offensive; plus intellectually lazy as well.
6
Really? Their actions are not harmful?
The pro-forced-birth – an organized movement - purposely uses incendiary rhetoric laced with overt violence. Their language is threatening and intimidating in nature (“baby killers”, “murderers”, “abortion providers should be killed”; they spit and scream - SCREAM - in women's faces at clinics). They lie outright, often (baby parts, abortions cause breast cancer and/or depression, all of which have been disproven). Worst of all, they commit heinous crimes: arson, bombings, threats (including provider’s family members), harass people at their homes, vandalize homes and clinics, and wound, maim and EXECUTE providers, staff members and patients.
How is this not harmful?
The pro-forced-birth – an organized movement - purposely uses incendiary rhetoric laced with overt violence. Their language is threatening and intimidating in nature (“baby killers”, “murderers”, “abortion providers should be killed”; they spit and scream - SCREAM - in women's faces at clinics). They lie outright, often (baby parts, abortions cause breast cancer and/or depression, all of which have been disproven). Worst of all, they commit heinous crimes: arson, bombings, threats (including provider’s family members), harass people at their homes, vandalize homes and clinics, and wound, maim and EXECUTE providers, staff members and patients.
How is this not harmful?
11
There are plenty of examples of leaders of the "pro-life" movement explicitly calling for acts of violence, even murder, to be committed, and/or condoning them after the fact (see David Leach). While I agree with you that calling for limitations on free speech would be hypocritical and counterproductive, acknowledging the correlation (if not causation) is an essential part of this dialogue. I too respect and understand why some would oppose abortion. What I cannot accept is "pro-life" silence in response to violence.
They should labeled a terrorist organization and have the full weight of the US security forces put to the task of removing them from society. Anyone who provides material assistance should be treated just as anyone who gives Islamic terrorist material aid.
22
Are you talking about Operation Rescue.
4
They will not be labeled as a terrorist organization. Planned Parenthood is a fear and lie-mongering political issue that
brings "positive" attention to the GOP and that's how they get those votes. The murderers here are also not claiming to be part of any organization with rare exception.
brings "positive" attention to the GOP and that's how they get those votes. The murderers here are also not claiming to be part of any organization with rare exception.
There are plenty of men who want to regulate the bodies of women. It is about time to turn the discussion around but I guess I haven't heard a call for all young males to be required to undergo a vasectomy at the age of 13 in order to reduce unwanted pregnancies. Of course if men's rights are violated in this way there would be huge outcry and a move toward more 'rational' solutions. The women's movement - if there is one left - needs to go on the attack and not let the pro-life movement dictate the conversation. Perhaps some of the following proposals would be good starting points:
1. A dialogue between both sides on how to reduce unwanted pregnancies, including the aforementioned forced sterilization.
2. A discussion of the best outcome for children of unwanted pregnancies including adoption by those opposed to abortion.
3. A recognition of the inherent discrimination against women in the anti-abortion legislation being implemented across the country.
4. A call for the implementation of 'hate crime' status for acts of violence against abortion providers. For that is surely what it is.
1. A dialogue between both sides on how to reduce unwanted pregnancies, including the aforementioned forced sterilization.
2. A discussion of the best outcome for children of unwanted pregnancies including adoption by those opposed to abortion.
3. A recognition of the inherent discrimination against women in the anti-abortion legislation being implemented across the country.
4. A call for the implementation of 'hate crime' status for acts of violence against abortion providers. For that is surely what it is.
27
You might ad to that declaring anyone who attacks either a family planning clinic, or someone who works at a family planning clinic, or a doctor who performs an abortion as a terrorist. Those who would bomb or shoot up a family planning clinic or attempt to block access to such a clinic and its services are no better that those who recently killed people and bombed social venues in Paris or sent the planes flying into the World Trade Center.
Please do not vote for anyone who espouses such atrocities
Please do not vote for anyone who espouses such atrocities
15
The most recent pools show that 54 are now pro-choice while 46% of men are proc-choice. Men don't have abortions, but they often pay for them and persuade women to have them to escape the consequences of parenthood. Still, about 46 percent of women are anti-abortion. Congress defies hate crimes as criminal offenses motivated by bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation. So, whole antiabortion violence is terrorism, it's not a hate crime.
You're correct - it's a cultural war either way.
I can see where this is going. conservatives will say it's a mental illness issue, and anti-gun liberals will try to expand the definition of mental illness, to include anyone who owns a handgun.
All of this will play into the hands of our 1%, who will use it to crush protests and internet comments, to hang on to their power and wealth.
Then anyone who is accused of making threats could be deprived of their civil rights and freedom. That's how the old Soviet Union did it. The gulags were designated mental hospitals instead of prisons.
All of this will play into the hands of our 1%, who will use it to crush protests and internet comments, to hang on to their power and wealth.
Then anyone who is accused of making threats could be deprived of their civil rights and freedom. That's how the old Soviet Union did it. The gulags were designated mental hospitals instead of prisons.
2
The anti-abortion crowd has long since given up any shred of peaceful nonviolence. The routine "protests" outside any clinic providing abortion, or even contraceptive services, are intimidating and intended to frighten the women who enter the clinics. The leaders of their movement encourage the murder of doctors who provide abortions, and denigrate the lives of women who undergo them.
I do believe that some people genuinely believe that abortion is wrong. Unfortunately, in this country they and their political apologists have given up any shred of respect for people who disagree with them, and routinely demonize those who support abortion. It is no surprise that this shrill and threatening din encourages somebody to commit murder. And yes, as even Huckabee acknowledged, the rsult is terrorism.
I do believe that some people genuinely believe that abortion is wrong. Unfortunately, in this country they and their political apologists have given up any shred of respect for people who disagree with them, and routinely demonize those who support abortion. It is no surprise that this shrill and threatening din encourages somebody to commit murder. And yes, as even Huckabee acknowledged, the rsult is terrorism.
28
Here's an interesting tidbit: religious fundamentalists are often part of the anti-choice crowd.
The Pope himself just this week called religious fundamentalism an evil and that it has nothing to do with God -- that it was an idolotry. And he was referring here to Christians. I have not heard any other Christian leader make such a blunt, forceful statement about religious fundamentalists -- and this should be given attention.
The Pope himself just this week called religious fundamentalism an evil and that it has nothing to do with God -- that it was an idolotry. And he was referring here to Christians. I have not heard any other Christian leader make such a blunt, forceful statement about religious fundamentalists -- and this should be given attention.
32
The current Pope is showing himself to be a true champion of the faithful. I hope he lives long enough to enact some much needed reforms in the Church. He might even be able to bring about a respectful dialog and some unity among Christian and even some other religions.
May he live a long, healthy life.
May he live a long, healthy life.
7
During his recent visit to the United States, Pope Francis stressed the need to “protect and defend human life at every stage of its development,” an example of antiabortion rhetoric. He also directed U.S. bishops not to forget “the innocent victims of abortion” in their sermons.
2
Tax exempt status for religious organizations has created this monster of intrusive judgmental religionistas in every aspect of public life today.
31
Tax them like any corporation , with no deductions for expenses. They are selling phony salvation to ignorant followers who blindly obey the edict of the day.
1
Maybe and I think it's horrible religious orgs. get away with it. What else is new.
Unfortunately, some do honest (that's a word we don't see often)
work and help people because our lofty government isn't helping them. It is corporate America that permits this.
Unfortunately, some do honest (that's a word we don't see often)
work and help people because our lofty government isn't helping them. It is corporate America that permits this.
"Who will rid me of this troublesome priest"
I guess Henry II had no responsibility in the killing of Beckett. Plausible deniability is a great cover. People who slyly incite others to violence and then appear shocked when it occurs are disingenuous at best and totally complicit at worst. Th analogies these pro lifers use are guaranteed to inflame an already volatile population. Why not say it plainly "Baby killers must be stopped by any means possible".
I guess Henry II had no responsibility in the killing of Beckett. Plausible deniability is a great cover. People who slyly incite others to violence and then appear shocked when it occurs are disingenuous at best and totally complicit at worst. Th analogies these pro lifers use are guaranteed to inflame an already volatile population. Why not say it plainly "Baby killers must be stopped by any means possible".
25
Anti-Abortionists are some of America's great one-dimensional citizens, religiously focused on Christian Shariah Law to the exclusion of reason, cause and effect, history, math and honest sex education.
"Before 1973 and Roe vs. Wade, an estimated 1 million US women resorted to illegal abortion each year and unsafe illegal abortions caused as many as 5,000 annual deaths."
"Complications due to unsafe and/or illegal abortion still accounts for approximately 13% of maternal deaths worldwide, nearly 50,000 deaths a year."
"Where abortion is illegal, the risk of complications and maternal mortality is high. The abortion-related death rate is hundreds of times higher in developing regions, where the procedure is often illegal, than in developed countries."
"History shows that restricted access does not eliminate abortion; abortion just moves underground and into the back alley."
http://goo.gl/yjKYPm
As movie critic Roger Ebert said about the abortion-themed movie Vera Drake:
"Vera Drake is not so much pro or anti-abortion as it is opposed to laws which do little to eliminate abortion but much to make it dangerous for poor people. No matter what the law says, then or now, in England or America, if you can afford a plane ticket and the medical bill you will always be able to obtain a competent abortion, so laws essentially make it illegal to be poor and seek an abortion."
Anti-abortionism is simply a Christian-themed misogynist war on poor women.
Nice people.
"Before 1973 and Roe vs. Wade, an estimated 1 million US women resorted to illegal abortion each year and unsafe illegal abortions caused as many as 5,000 annual deaths."
"Complications due to unsafe and/or illegal abortion still accounts for approximately 13% of maternal deaths worldwide, nearly 50,000 deaths a year."
"Where abortion is illegal, the risk of complications and maternal mortality is high. The abortion-related death rate is hundreds of times higher in developing regions, where the procedure is often illegal, than in developed countries."
"History shows that restricted access does not eliminate abortion; abortion just moves underground and into the back alley."
http://goo.gl/yjKYPm
As movie critic Roger Ebert said about the abortion-themed movie Vera Drake:
"Vera Drake is not so much pro or anti-abortion as it is opposed to laws which do little to eliminate abortion but much to make it dangerous for poor people. No matter what the law says, then or now, in England or America, if you can afford a plane ticket and the medical bill you will always be able to obtain a competent abortion, so laws essentially make it illegal to be poor and seek an abortion."
Anti-abortionism is simply a Christian-themed misogynist war on poor women.
Nice people.
123
I agree with most of your statement Socrates. However, anti abortionism is more than Christian-themed misogynist war on poor women. Its a forcing of one religious viewpoint, through violence, on others. What these organizations and people are doing is no better than what ISIS is doing or what any other terrorist group has done. They are preventing women from being able to exercise control over their bodies, families from exercising control of the number of children they have, and, in the process contributing to the pool of unwanted, abused children in the world. They are also contributing to misery quotient because unwanted and abused children grow into adults who often have problems from being abused and unwanted.
Abortion should be legal no matter what reason the woman has. If she or her family feel that they cannot support another child it's as valid a reason for abortion as not wanting to have a child with a serious genetic defect. Nothing detracts from the dignity of life more than being unwanted, uncared for, or so abused that you cannot or do not want to form relations with other people. Furthermore, children who are born with serious genetic defects grow into adults that our society refuses to care for properly. How dignified is that?
Abortion should be legal no matter what reason the woman has. If she or her family feel that they cannot support another child it's as valid a reason for abortion as not wanting to have a child with a serious genetic defect. Nothing detracts from the dignity of life more than being unwanted, uncared for, or so abused that you cannot or do not want to form relations with other people. Furthermore, children who are born with serious genetic defects grow into adults that our society refuses to care for properly. How dignified is that?
11
Black Lives Matter activists and Muslims aren't expected to apologize for their fringe members by sane people, and neither should prominent abortion opponents. Which prominent abortion opponents is the author thinking of, anyways? Just the crazy ones, it would appear. Pope Francis opposes abortion. Do you think he agrees with any of the nutjobs the author has offered up as mainstream abortion opponents?
"[A]trocities that would seem to call for resistance by any means necessary." That's the author's interpretation, not anyone else's. And even if it weren't, "seem" does not equate to "actually."
Does "coathangers in an alley" resound like familiar rhetorical you've heard before?
"[A]trocities that would seem to call for resistance by any means necessary." That's the author's interpretation, not anyone else's. And even if it weren't, "seem" does not equate to "actually."
Does "coathangers in an alley" resound like familiar rhetorical you've heard before?
13
"Black Lives Matter activists and Muslims aren't expected to apologize for their fringe members by sane people..."
Correct, they're expected to apologize by Republicans.
Correct, they're expected to apologize by Republicans.
3
Not anyone else's? Did nobody then commit the murders, bombings and arson mentioned in the column? Is Robert L. Dear not anyone?
1
The actuality is the litany of statistics of violence against pro-choice people that the author cited - you must have skipped that part." The National Abortion Federation, the professional association of abortion providers, has recorded a staggering 6,948 acts of violence against clinics and providers between 1977 and 2014, including eight murders, 17 attempted murders, 42 bombings and 182 arsons". You're right, nothing "seeming" about that. All of these incidents, ALL, in the name of protecting the unborn, at the expense of its living, breathing host, and anyone else interested in upholding her constitutional right, not to mention her health. Anti-abortionists would like to paint these people as the devil incarnate and invoke their religion to make criminality acceptable in the eyes of their god. What fakes! What a convenient faith!!
Anti-abortion violence in the United States has killed 11 people since 1993, but most of the murders occurred more than two decades ago. In a May 2014 speech, FBI Director John Lewis said, “In recent years, the Animal Liberation Front and the Earth Liberation Front have become the most active criminal extremist elements in the United States.”
https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/animal-rights-extremism-and-ecoterrorism
https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/animal-rights-extremism-and-ecoterrorism
9
John Lewis was Assistant Deputy Director of the FBI, not the Director; and the year was 2004, not 2014. The ALF and the ELF barely exist anymore, if at all.
7
And your point is? Did you look at the numbers of attacks at or near reproductive health clinics where most do not perform abortions, or only 3% of services by Planned Parenthood are abortions services. That means that 97% of services are directed toward male and female reproductive healthcare.
1
2004, the Bush years. Not exactly a time to investigate anti-abortion violence, and no one dead. That's less than 11.
1
Isn't it interesting how people who claim to be pro life are making virulent comments that encourage others to kill those who would assist women and their families in having children that they can support for 18 years or more? These are the same people who often vote in or for candidates who vow to cut entitlement programs or programs that help women, infants, children, and families. They want to have it both ways: punish women for being pregnant by not allowing them access to the care that can prevent pregnancy or terminate it and deny them assistance that can keep them out of poverty. And all of this is done under the guise of being religious, concerned about eternal damnation, and the fetus that cannot survive outside the woman's body without extensive assistance until the 7th month of the pregnancy. If you want to make sure that single mothers and their children don't do well, that unwanted children are punished for being unwanted, this is the way to do it.
If these people want women to have children they cannot care for or that are severely handicapped they ought to start donating all their time and money to raising and supporting said children and parents. Then they can discuss the sanctity of all life. Until then, they should have no say over what any woman does with her body and her ability to bear children.
If these people want women to have children they cannot care for or that are severely handicapped they ought to start donating all their time and money to raising and supporting said children and parents. Then they can discuss the sanctity of all life. Until then, they should have no say over what any woman does with her body and her ability to bear children.
61
"Is it because the perpetrators are generally white and Christian?"
Congratulations, Katha, you won the kewpie doll. And then you forfeit the kewpie doll for refusing to call these white Christian extremists what they are: America's greatest and most immediate terrorist threat. But then why should you be any different from the rest of the corporate media?
Congratulations, Katha, you won the kewpie doll. And then you forfeit the kewpie doll for refusing to call these white Christian extremists what they are: America's greatest and most immediate terrorist threat. But then why should you be any different from the rest of the corporate media?
11
Corporate media? Katha Pollitt has been writing for The Nation for many years; it doesn't get more non-corporate than that. Thank goodness for The Nation.
1
When my oldest daughter was eight years' old, we lived in an upscale neighborhood and catty-corner from a women's clinic where professionals provided health exams, prenatal exams, birth control and, apparently, abortions. On occasion, some anti-abortion preacher from the boonies would bring his busload of parishioners and demonstrate in front of the clinic with signs and accusatory shouting and the whole nine yards. It was very intimidating for the women who were just there to get their prescriptions for birth control pills.
What got my goat is when the anti-abortion protesters would holler at my daughter about how horrible abortion was. She was eight. On the other hand, maybe they were doing me a favor. I'm pro-choice, but I hadn't talked to her about pro-choice issues yet because she was only eight years old. To her everlasting credit, their hollering at her about the horrors of abortion was exactly what inspired her to be pro-choice because ain't nobody was going to tell her what she could and could not do with her own body.
What got my goat is when the anti-abortion protesters would holler at my daughter about how horrible abortion was. She was eight. On the other hand, maybe they were doing me a favor. I'm pro-choice, but I hadn't talked to her about pro-choice issues yet because she was only eight years old. To her everlasting credit, their hollering at her about the horrors of abortion was exactly what inspired her to be pro-choice because ain't nobody was going to tell her what she could and could not do with her own body.
285
Did early unions take responsibility for sabotage, murder and terrorism (e.g., bombing of the LA Times) committed against employers? I'm the son and grandson of strong union men. But what's sauce for goose should also be applied to the gander.
5
And before the early unions there were the crusades. What on earth has a crime committed in the struggle for unionization in the early 20th century have to do with reproductive rights advocacy? Nothing at all.
1
Ms. Pollitt lightly skips over the part where she claims the majority of Americans support abortion on demand for everyone. It's not that simple. The majority of Americans support first term abortions for women over 18 (or younger with permission from parents), but many support waiting periods, mandatory education, and other regulations that deliberately make an abortion more difficult to get. So the majority support limited, regulated abortions. Pro-choice supporters who demand absolute freedom of abortions for all with no limits, preferably paid by government mandated insurance, are not supported by a majority. There are extremists on both sides unwilling to compromise, which leads to drama and violence.
12
"There are extremists on both sides unwilling to compromise, which leads to drama and violence.
And when, pray tell, has a pro-choice supporter ever gunned down or held hostage a bunch of pro-'lifers'?
And when, pray tell, has a pro-choice supporter ever gunned down or held hostage a bunch of pro-'lifers'?
5
Please cite your source for thinking that there is some vast population of "abortion supporters who demand absolute freedom of abortions for all with no limits, pref paid for government mandated insurance". This is right wing hokum in my opinion, and is regularly hauled out as if it is a fact, like the "welfare queen in a cadillac" of yore.
Cite your source that this is a big problem in the US with American women.
Cite your source that this is a big problem in the US with American women.
3
Most Americans support those measures for gun purchases, too. See where that goes?
1
Women were given the inalienable right, by their creator be it mother nature or some other entity, to choose what they do with their own bodies and anything growing on or in them. A woman's body is no one else business. NOW is the time to pass the Equal Rights Amendment to the United States of America Constitution to protect that right under the law of the land and states to stop this deadly nonsense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment
34
So if women have the inalienable right to chose what they do with their oen bodies, do you think a pregnant woman can inject heroin in her veins? If so, you are wrong....
1
Many of them do.
Dr. Jocelyn Elders had it right years ago when she said that most anti-choice folks cared mainly about fetuses. They "save" pregnancies, but then move on to the next pregnancy. They routinely vote against all the programs and services which might help a mother raise that baby to healthy adulthood.
Not all protesters at clinics are attacking. I used to regularly pass a pair of women who stood silently in front of a high-rise in Chicago which housed a clinic. Their posters, with pictures of babies and/or fetuses, said, "We can help you and baby." Unfortunately, the help such folks offer usually comes down to some used maternity clothes, used baby clothes, and maybe some formula right after birth. A woman who has a child she cannot manage has needs stretching out for at least 18 years and those needs include housing, clothes, food, medical, maybe mental health or domestic violence help, transportation, child care etc., etc. Again, once the pregnancy is "saved," the help will be short-lived.
Certainly the anti-choice folks have a right to express their opinions, but if they truly are "pro-life" they will do so in ways that respect all life (even those with whom they strongly disagree).
Not all protesters at clinics are attacking. I used to regularly pass a pair of women who stood silently in front of a high-rise in Chicago which housed a clinic. Their posters, with pictures of babies and/or fetuses, said, "We can help you and baby." Unfortunately, the help such folks offer usually comes down to some used maternity clothes, used baby clothes, and maybe some formula right after birth. A woman who has a child she cannot manage has needs stretching out for at least 18 years and those needs include housing, clothes, food, medical, maybe mental health or domestic violence help, transportation, child care etc., etc. Again, once the pregnancy is "saved," the help will be short-lived.
Certainly the anti-choice folks have a right to express their opinions, but if they truly are "pro-life" they will do so in ways that respect all life (even those with whom they strongly disagree).
63
Call them what they are pro-birth, they are certainly not pro-life. They do not care about what happens to a poor child after that first breath, in fact quite the opposite. ...and many them are also anti-contraception, regulating women to the status of brrod mares, with no support, certainly no healthcare
How many incidents will it take here and abroad before Westerners realize that religious belief has dangerous consequences. If there is no man in the sky, there is no need to murder in the name of his bible or quran.
45
The people who insisted that Congress be denied any power to enact faith based legislation in the first clause of the first amendment to the Constitution knew how dangerous it is to allow such legislation well over 200 years ago.
1
Organized religion, not money, is the root of all evil.
1
One more thought:
It's common sense that Planned Parenthood, with its contraception counseling and access to care and education, is responsible for PREVENTING millions of unwanted pregnancies and hundreds of thousands of the abortions that might result.
Will some journalist with half a brain please shove that in Huckabee's face?
It's common sense that Planned Parenthood, with its contraception counseling and access to care and education, is responsible for PREVENTING millions of unwanted pregnancies and hundreds of thousands of the abortions that might result.
Will some journalist with half a brain please shove that in Huckabee's face?
105
You are ascribing common sense to them and mis-reading their motives. They don't like contraception, either, as it allows "bad" women to be sexual without having to suffer from the "consequences."
3
That statement is tricky.....advocates claim planned parenthood provides non-biased advice for pregnant women. But, a *huge* percentage of pregnant women end up with abortions (which financially benefits planned parenthood) while only a negligible portion of women are referred to consider adoption (which results in little to no funds for planned parenthood). The idea that PP provides unbiased advice to women is laughable.
Nothing in that statement is intended to justify violence against clinics but it is ok to state you believe the millions of abortions taking place in this country is a bad thing and an unfortunate issue to be the litmus test for women's rights i.e. opposition to abortion = war on women.
Nothing in that statement is intended to justify violence against clinics but it is ok to state you believe the millions of abortions taking place in this country is a bad thing and an unfortunate issue to be the litmus test for women's rights i.e. opposition to abortion = war on women.
Lots of cliched leftist talk, very little substance in this article. The author might not believe that abortion equals "murder on an industrial scale" but the numbers speak for themselves. Although estimates vary, there have been roughly 50 million abortions since Roe v Wade. Even being generous with the pro choice camp, if only 10 % of those were abortions that would not had happened without Roe v Wade (because back then abortion was already legal in some states) on viable fetuses, we are talking 5 million people who have been lost to abortion. If the author considers 10% too high, an prefers 1%, we are still talking of 500000 people. Still, in my opinion, "industrial scale". I say this as a prolife activist who condemns unambiguously all acts of violence committed in the name of the prolife movement. The author lives in complete denial when she refuses to admit what abortion has done to the persons who are not and will never be with us. Each embryo has its unique DNA that won't be repeated in the history of humanity. If Steve Jobs had been aborted by his mother in 1955, instead of being put up for adoption, the world would be very different today. So let's condemn violence to be sure, but let's not use such condemnation as an attempt to shut down legitimate speech that denounces to the barbaric practice of abortion.
43
Ethan - Laws against abortion WILL NOT STOP ABORTIONS. Women who can afford it will leave the country and get a safe, legal abortion. Women who are poor and desperate will do just about anything they have to - plunge a coat hanger or knitting needle into their uterus; use bleach enemas; throw themselves down a flight of stairs or submit themselves to a "back alley" abortion at the hands of someone who may or may not be qualified to perform that procedure (and usually in very unsterile conditions). Is that what you really want to go back to??
13
Science 101. Embryos are NOT people. They need a host--namely a women's uterus--to become viable. Hence, your statement that "500,000 people" were killed by abortion is incorrect.
Who are you to tell women whether they have to be a host to an embryo? If you are a woman and you are against abortions, do not have one. If you are man and you are against abortions, take charge and use a condom.
Who are you to tell women whether they have to be a host to an embryo? If you are a woman and you are against abortions, do not have one. If you are man and you are against abortions, take charge and use a condom.
19
Its not just the author who does not believe that "abortion equals murder" - medical professionals also believe that. That's why abortion and its guidelines have been approved and refined by people in the medical profession. Its why you can't just decided to have an abortion at 6months because you just want to (the health of the mother has to be in danger, or the child has to be unable to survive outside of the womb). Just because you want to label something and react accordingly doesn't just MAKE IT SO.
I wouldn't have a problem with pro-lifers, if their didn't make disingenuous arguments. Abortion is regulated, just like every other medical procedure.
What are your plans for helping those 500,000 "people" that were aborted. Are you going to provide these parents with money every month, for food, shelter, healthcare, education, fun activities, etc for the better part of 18 years? Are you going to support programs like WIC and SNAP that help MOSTLY poor children?
I'm glad Steve Jobs has a legacy to leave behind, but guess who else left a legacy behind? Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy? See what I did there - that argument is a double-edge sword that cuts both ways.
"The author lives in complete denial when she refuses to admit what abortion has done to the persons who are not and will never be with us" - And that right there is key - those embryos are not people and so there is nothing that was "done to them".
I'm glad you denounced the violence.
I wouldn't have a problem with pro-lifers, if their didn't make disingenuous arguments. Abortion is regulated, just like every other medical procedure.
What are your plans for helping those 500,000 "people" that were aborted. Are you going to provide these parents with money every month, for food, shelter, healthcare, education, fun activities, etc for the better part of 18 years? Are you going to support programs like WIC and SNAP that help MOSTLY poor children?
I'm glad Steve Jobs has a legacy to leave behind, but guess who else left a legacy behind? Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy? See what I did there - that argument is a double-edge sword that cuts both ways.
"The author lives in complete denial when she refuses to admit what abortion has done to the persons who are not and will never be with us" - And that right there is key - those embryos are not people and so there is nothing that was "done to them".
I'm glad you denounced the violence.
12
The Republican vision of America where abortion is outlawed exists in the world already.
It's El Salvador where all abortion, no matter the circumstances, is a crime.
Why the press doesn't cite the real world consequences of Republican dogma (their pipe dream world view can never stand up to reality whether it's science or economics) in the abortion debate is beyond me. They should be hammering those freaks.
So, everyone, especially journalists research "abortion El Salvador" and get real.
Talk about government on our backs!
Here's a start:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_El_Salvador
It's El Salvador where all abortion, no matter the circumstances, is a crime.
Why the press doesn't cite the real world consequences of Republican dogma (their pipe dream world view can never stand up to reality whether it's science or economics) in the abortion debate is beyond me. They should be hammering those freaks.
So, everyone, especially journalists research "abortion El Salvador" and get real.
Talk about government on our backs!
Here's a start:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_El_Salvador
25
If there is a god, he is the great abortionist. In El Salvador, women who spontaneously abort, the god kind, are often accused of having abortions. On top of going through a dangerous physical trauma, they are then imprisoned.
It's also in many places in Europe.
All of those sanctimonious right-wing bigots and hypocrites DO have blood on their hands. Abortion is horrible until their mistress or girl friend or wife or daughter or sister wants to end an unwanted pregnancy.
Scott DesJarlais, the TN Congressman encouraged his mistress and his wife (2 different women) to have abortions; yet he has the gall to oppose it for other women who feel overburdened and overwhelmed.
Women have a legal and human right to control what happens within their own bodies. Throughout human history women have found ways to end a deeply unwanted pregnancy, even at the risk of their own lives. They did, and will continue to do so in order to save themselves and their existing families.
Scott DesJarlais, the TN Congressman encouraged his mistress and his wife (2 different women) to have abortions; yet he has the gall to oppose it for other women who feel overburdened and overwhelmed.
Women have a legal and human right to control what happens within their own bodies. Throughout human history women have found ways to end a deeply unwanted pregnancy, even at the risk of their own lives. They did, and will continue to do so in order to save themselves and their existing families.
444
Yes, Jessica, but WE must still DEMAND EQUAL CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS FOR WOMEN UNDER THE LAW to prevent these absurd attacks.
6
I would like so see Carly Fiorina and the members of Center for Medical Progress go to jail for their role is promoting this violence by their incendiary and fact-less speech. Does anyone know if they should be held liable? Wouldn't Carly look great in prison clothes !!
32
There are very few exceptions to our First Amendment rights to free expression, but there seems to be legal precedent for prohibiting words that could constitute endangerment of public safety, e.g., yelling "Fire!" In a crowded theater; so-called "fighting words;" and words that incite others to commit violent acts against persons or property. For me, Carly Fiorina's egregious mischaracterizations of Planned Parenthood fall under the latter-most of these 'exceptions.'
The local Planned Parenthood, which once provided me with needed condoms and STD tests while in college and broke, has many Bullies around. I let them know they are bullies and wonder if anyone can direct me to best ways to 1) protest the bullies, and 2) help people get PP services to get around the bullies, maybe like a taxi/Lyft/Uber service.
32
The rhetoric of anti-abortionists and
"Black Lives Matter activists are accused by some of promoting the murder of police officers, and every Muslim", etc.
Depending then on which side of the aisle one stands, all three benefit from violence linked to their rhetoric then? Given the fact that child abusers and rapists are subject to special treatment in prison, is societal rhetoric to blame for that? Better to keep quiet then? Who shall be the judge of what is or what is not justifiable rhetoric? And who is to be the enforcer in a pluralistic society?
"Black Lives Matter activists are accused by some of promoting the murder of police officers, and every Muslim", etc.
Depending then on which side of the aisle one stands, all three benefit from violence linked to their rhetoric then? Given the fact that child abusers and rapists are subject to special treatment in prison, is societal rhetoric to blame for that? Better to keep quiet then? Who shall be the judge of what is or what is not justifiable rhetoric? And who is to be the enforcer in a pluralistic society?
1
Black Lives Matter is promoting civil rights and peace. Anti-abortionist lunatics are promoting retroactive abortion. Post-birth, you're game. And if you're an adult- big game.
Some of the regular commentaries for the "pro-life" contingency seem surprised that their black and white categories do not work on the Robert Dear case. GOP candidates demonize women and women's healthcare at PP to the point of trying to shut down the govt. Mitch McConnell who back in the day supported fetal tissue research was right in there with the demonizers. John Boehner too.
Dear raped a woman, had a history of domestic abuse and violence but also spouted scripture "all the time" according to a relative. The crowd that has little use for women deciding their own family planning now can't remember screaming at people at the PP. Everyone else remembers. Projecting the horrible scenarios inside your own head onto women going in for healthcare is not your job and none of your business
Dear raped a woman, had a history of domestic abuse and violence but also spouted scripture "all the time" according to a relative. The crowd that has little use for women deciding their own family planning now can't remember screaming at people at the PP. Everyone else remembers. Projecting the horrible scenarios inside your own head onto women going in for healthcare is not your job and none of your business
26
Nine judges decided in 73 that women going forward would have a right to abort their pregnancies; millions of opponents of the practice were told when nine people decide to decide public policy they had no say. The decision galvanized a dormant Christian right. There is no excuse for violence but to discuss the violence in the Right to Life movement without taking into account the undemocratic way abortion became legal is another example of the myopia of leftist ideologues.
Whether women should have a right to an abortion is a profound question, the most profound since slavery and opponents are as impassioned as abolitionists were. I don’t know the answer but I know the answer is not in the Constitution. There is no right answer and no group of nine men was ever going to find one.
Ms. Pollitt, denouncing all opponents as terrorists or religious rubes is useless rhetoric. We still don’t know how much of a lunatic Dear is and please show me the BLM activists who admitted that their rhetoric caused violence against Police.
I don’t know where we go from here; the polarization of our politics, in part caused by Roe has made imagining rosy futures for this country hard. I know one lesson we should have learned is that decisions are more legitimate when arrived at through Democracy than the diktats of nine judges. It is sad that we haven’t learned this yet. Throughout our history, the Supreme Court has done more harm than the most venal politicians have, and needs reforming.
Whether women should have a right to an abortion is a profound question, the most profound since slavery and opponents are as impassioned as abolitionists were. I don’t know the answer but I know the answer is not in the Constitution. There is no right answer and no group of nine men was ever going to find one.
Ms. Pollitt, denouncing all opponents as terrorists or religious rubes is useless rhetoric. We still don’t know how much of a lunatic Dear is and please show me the BLM activists who admitted that their rhetoric caused violence against Police.
I don’t know where we go from here; the polarization of our politics, in part caused by Roe has made imagining rosy futures for this country hard. I know one lesson we should have learned is that decisions are more legitimate when arrived at through Democracy than the diktats of nine judges. It is sad that we haven’t learned this yet. Throughout our history, the Supreme Court has done more harm than the most venal politicians have, and needs reforming.
5
The Supreme Court is "undemocratic"? So, you propose eliminating it? Are all SC rulings to be eliminated, because there are many rulings such as Citizens United and gun rulings that us "leftist ideologues" disagree with. But how many times do you see "leftist ideologues" bombing gun stores or shooting wealthy contributors?
Face it, your side of the argument has resorted to violence, to breaking the law, and you came here to defend it.
Face it, your side of the argument has resorted to violence, to breaking the law, and you came here to defend it.
1
Maybe you are right re Roe vs Wade and really do not care about what happens in mostly red states. The main thing is glad I live in NY who would never outlaw abortion. Abortion will always be needed in some cases and I do not condone it. What I do think is appropriate is if Roe vs Wade is overturned then pro choice states should offer abortion only to state residents then let's see how much the elite in the pro life states like reality.
Ummm, Roe v. Wade was necessary since your discomfort with abortion is not a justification for preventing me from getting one. (You are free to not get one.) Your analogy with slavery is absolutely spot-on. Do you think we should have waited for the individual states to decide to ban slavery? Or were the slaves (who, unlike fetuses, were actual human beings), entitled to their freedom regardless of whether their "owners" agreed with it?
1
This news makes me so sad. The rabid section of "pro-lifers" (almost always pro-gun too) is directly responsible for these three tragic deaths.
It is so difficult to deal with unwanted pregnancies. I know someone close who had to undergo abortion and saw up close the ordeal of a gut-wrenching decision. For these "pro-life" people to make it that much more harder is so terrible.
There is one way only to reduce abortions and that is reducing unwanted pregnancies. But wait, the "pro-life" people don't believe things that would lead to that humane option either...
It is so difficult to deal with unwanted pregnancies. I know someone close who had to undergo abortion and saw up close the ordeal of a gut-wrenching decision. For these "pro-life" people to make it that much more harder is so terrible.
There is one way only to reduce abortions and that is reducing unwanted pregnancies. But wait, the "pro-life" people don't believe things that would lead to that humane option either...
25
Without devaluing your personal experience, I would point out that if you read Ms Pollitt's book 'Pro', you may find it is not always a 'gut-wrenching decision' for the woman; that in fact, generally there is none of the guilt and depression flogged by anti-abortion activists as inevitable, but simply relief that one can get on with one's own life - an existing life, not just a potential one.
I was fortunate not to need an abortion, but I did, in my youth, have one pregnancy scare (the circumstances of which need not be explored here, especially since a woman's reasons are NOT in question - her choice is her choice, period). And I promise you had it been necessary, I would have had that abortion - legally if I could, but if not, by any means necessary - without a scrap of misgiving.
I was fortunate not to need an abortion, but I did, in my youth, have one pregnancy scare (the circumstances of which need not be explored here, especially since a woman's reasons are NOT in question - her choice is her choice, period). And I promise you had it been necessary, I would have had that abortion - legally if I could, but if not, by any means necessary - without a scrap of misgiving.
The religious terrorists who want to control women's bodies as matter of morality stand on very thin ethical ice.
Claiming as accepted wisdom that, conception immediately creates an entity that is sacred, is wholly religious superstition without basis in fact. Creating and demanding a psychology of guilt in women who are in the position to end a pregnancy is misogynistic psychological abuse, and should never be tolerated.
As Sam Harris teaches in "The Moral Landscape," questions of right and wrong in human society are questions of the well-being of conscious creatures. The salient term is "conscious." A week-old blastocyst has over 100x fewer cells than the brain of a fly, a month old embryo is the size of a poppy seed. Neither have a conscious existence, outside the imaginations of some very paternalistic religious fundamentalists.
Claiming as accepted wisdom that, conception immediately creates an entity that is sacred, is wholly religious superstition without basis in fact. Creating and demanding a psychology of guilt in women who are in the position to end a pregnancy is misogynistic psychological abuse, and should never be tolerated.
As Sam Harris teaches in "The Moral Landscape," questions of right and wrong in human society are questions of the well-being of conscious creatures. The salient term is "conscious." A week-old blastocyst has over 100x fewer cells than the brain of a fly, a month old embryo is the size of a poppy seed. Neither have a conscious existence, outside the imaginations of some very paternalistic religious fundamentalists.
43
The next tactic, after trying to deny that inflammatory right-wing rhetoric provokes the unstable to violence, is to try to claim that the exact same thing happens on the left, and in the same proportions. Even worse is that the mainstream media almost always accept this. "Law and Order" conservatives care nothing for the FBI's opinions about the dangers of domestic terrorism, because conservatives have been stoking these flames for years, and stepping it up ever since Obama took office.
21
"Another Republican presidential contender, Carly Fiorina, called it 'typical left-wing tactics' to connect them."
Logic is a tactic?
Logic is a tactic?
20
When is the main stream media going to do a full court press on Ted Cruz and call him out on all of the hate mongers he is using to run his campaign.
As I see it, he is going to be the Republican Nominee for President. If that happens, then all of these extreme hate mongers spewing forth "Kill the gays and execute abortion doctor's" will be appointed to powerful jobs in his administration.
Cruz's ultimate goal is to turn this country into a Christen theocracy in which "God's Law" trumps secular law, and that includes Gay marriage and abortion. What happens to those of us that do not tow the line of their extreme interpretation of scripture? Hangings? Stoning? Hmmm?
Cruz is scapegoating Muslims and Democratics, and this is the same tactic that the National Socialists use in Germany to take over control of the country and start WWII. Find someone to blame all of the ills the country is suffering, use vile threats and hidden agendas to take control, then use violence to gain control of government.
Violent speech is just the tip of the spear these Fundamentalist christens who distort history (David Barton) spew hatred (Tony Perkins etc ) and just can't stand liberalism use in order to attempt to sow fear in order to take control. If Curz wins, it can happen. Then, there will be a real revolution, and it will be very bloody!
As I see it, he is going to be the Republican Nominee for President. If that happens, then all of these extreme hate mongers spewing forth "Kill the gays and execute abortion doctor's" will be appointed to powerful jobs in his administration.
Cruz's ultimate goal is to turn this country into a Christen theocracy in which "God's Law" trumps secular law, and that includes Gay marriage and abortion. What happens to those of us that do not tow the line of their extreme interpretation of scripture? Hangings? Stoning? Hmmm?
Cruz is scapegoating Muslims and Democratics, and this is the same tactic that the National Socialists use in Germany to take over control of the country and start WWII. Find someone to blame all of the ills the country is suffering, use vile threats and hidden agendas to take control, then use violence to gain control of government.
Violent speech is just the tip of the spear these Fundamentalist christens who distort history (David Barton) spew hatred (Tony Perkins etc ) and just can't stand liberalism use in order to attempt to sow fear in order to take control. If Curz wins, it can happen. Then, there will be a real revolution, and it will be very bloody!
25
Yogi:
"God's Law."
HA! And the problem with this is said law is defined by....Man. 'Tis the hubris of our species. To presume to know the mind of the Creator and then proceed to act on that presumption with decrees, edicts, rituals and all the rest as the one true necessary way to salvation. Whatever salvation may mean. And then pressing their cause, their presumed way, on all the rest of us. This is why I cannot believe in God as defined by any of Man's religions. They don't seem to understand that when they engage in such acts; when they choose to presume, the Creator then turns away from them. And so it goes.
John~
American Net'Zen
"God's Law."
HA! And the problem with this is said law is defined by....Man. 'Tis the hubris of our species. To presume to know the mind of the Creator and then proceed to act on that presumption with decrees, edicts, rituals and all the rest as the one true necessary way to salvation. Whatever salvation may mean. And then pressing their cause, their presumed way, on all the rest of us. This is why I cannot believe in God as defined by any of Man's religions. They don't seem to understand that when they engage in such acts; when they choose to presume, the Creator then turns away from them. And so it goes.
John~
American Net'Zen
1
So the NYT doesn't promote free speech? Or free speech they agree with, I see. This is not condoning this crazy guys actions, but free speech can't hurt or kill, actions kill and hurt. I'm always skeptical of those who want to limit free speech. Should we ban books, music and art, I'm sure the Times would think that is absurd. So why is free speech and dissension under attack, violence should always be under attack, that is where any free speech ends. In an open society we have to accept that some folks carry on too far. You know like those who use the Koran for their religious ideologies of hate and violence, just like this nut.
7
Oh please. Do you really think it is "left wing" people on the Texas education boards warping textbooks? and then there are the GOPTP reps in Kansas wanting to elimination evolution science. and on. and on. If you cry fire in a movie theater or killing a doctor who performs abortion (or the staff, or the patient, or the family) is not a sin - an someone acts on that. You should have to live with the consequences as in accomplice to murder.
3
Did you read the article? The author isn't saying that the speech shouldn't be allowed. What she said is that people should acknowledge the repercussions of their speech, particularly when that speech inflames. No speech should be free from criticism and disapproval, and the speaker, when he/she says such untrue and irresponsible things, should be rightly condemned and despised.
5
The right to free speech does not include being sheltered from criticism of that speech. When anti-abortion activists use inflammatory terms like "butcher" and "baby killer" they should be roundly challenged.
3
I am certain that the number of acts of violence is higher than reported. My father was an OBGYN, he did his residency in the 60's at what was then Flower 5th Avenue Hospital. He watched scores of women die, or be permanently maimed, from illegal abortions. He was never pro-abortion; he was pro-women and lived in reality: the only way to save women's lives was to provide access to safe abortions and proper pre-natal care. He dedicated his life to that cause, as an OBGYN and as an abortion provider. And for that, he was the recipient of multiple acts of violence: rocks thrown through his office window, the fabric top of his convertible car slashed (multiple times, resulting in his buying a hard top just for clinic days), and tires slashed repeatedly. This was in the late 70's and 80's, before the rhetoric heated to it's current temperature. He remained unwavering in his commitment until his death in 1997, although I wonder if he would remain so in the current weaponized climate. I don't have answers, but I do know that women will ALWAYS have abortions. It's whether or not they have their lives that will be in question.
431
I thank you for sharing your father's experience as an OB/GYN. Yes, women will have abortions. Abortion ought to remain legal. We can also insist that medically accurate sexuality education and all methods of contraception be widely available.
1
Rush's comment made me physically sick.
So not surprising that Mr. Dear wasn't prosecuted for rape in 1992. People don't get that rape is a crime against the people of the state, not just the survivor. If he had been successfully prosecuted, he wouldn't have had a legal gun.
So not surprising that Mr. Dear wasn't prosecuted for rape in 1992. People don't get that rape is a crime against the people of the state, not just the survivor. If he had been successfully prosecuted, he wouldn't have had a legal gun.
25
Believers, keep your religion to yourself and obey the law.
26
To protect abortion providers, abortion clinics must be mainstreamed to, and absorbed by, hospitals. We cannot protect these places if they are left isolated.
32
More common sense like this is what is needed now.
1
It's ironic that deranged people express their disagreement with the practice abortion by also choosing to terminate life, but one thing is undeniable: when Bill O'Reilly repeats the sing-songy nursery rhyme, "Tiller, Tiller, baby killer," everyday on his popular Fox News show, it is beyond all rational and intelligent thought for O'Reilly to claim he had no influence in the murder of Dr. Tiller, who was shot through the eye by an anti-abortion extremist in 2009 while Tiller was serving as an usher at Sunday morning church service in Wichita. There is simply no possible way for O'Reilly or the killer Scott Roeder to remove themselves from the incitement generated by Bill the Bottomless Cipher.
32
Hmmm, even in this article the 'T' word is strangely absent (T for terrorism). Everybody knows America is against terrorism, unless it's a school shooter or abortion clinic bomber. Such nut-jobs are just demented mentally ill people no one can predict. If they're a Muslim-American violently flipping out, on the other hand, they're terrorists trying to sabotage our way of life. Carly Fiorina and Ted Cruz can lash out at the left, which is a joke because there is no actual left in the U.S. now days, but really they're playing political semantics with domestic terrorism, which has taken far more American lives in this nation than Islamic terrorism. Terrorism (killing innocent people) whether to stop abortion or in the name of Islam are just two forms of religious terrorism. Let's call things by their real names and see if it results in policy changes.
26
"Black Lives Matter activists are accused by some of promoting the murder of police officers, and every Muslim on earth is seemingly expected to condemn jihadi terrorism on practically a daily basis. Meanwhile, I’m not aware of any prominent abortion opponents who have publicly accepted responsibility for fomenting violence by using language that equates abortion with the Holocaust or murder on an industrial scale — atrocities that would seem to call for resistance by any means necessary."
You don't have to be a jihadist to be a Muslim, or a cop hater to be concerned for the sanctity of black lives. But to oppose abortion, you must believe that fetuses are moral persons, therefore possessed with the right to life, therefore eligible for protection under law. And if that's what you believe, then you'd have to conclude that the million-or-so abortions performed every year literally amount to the mass murder of innocent human beings.
So what you're really asking, Ms. Pollitt, is that people stop opposing abortion, plain and simple. And you haven't offered any decisive arguments that they should. That's because the abortion debate--which is at bottom a debate about when personhood begins and the right to life is acquired--is insoluble on a philosophical level. It must always be resolved by a naked assertion of force, whether by the courts (Roe v Wade) or by democratic majorities.
By the way, make no mistake--I don't for a second condone Robert Dear's acts.
You don't have to be a jihadist to be a Muslim, or a cop hater to be concerned for the sanctity of black lives. But to oppose abortion, you must believe that fetuses are moral persons, therefore possessed with the right to life, therefore eligible for protection under law. And if that's what you believe, then you'd have to conclude that the million-or-so abortions performed every year literally amount to the mass murder of innocent human beings.
So what you're really asking, Ms. Pollitt, is that people stop opposing abortion, plain and simple. And you haven't offered any decisive arguments that they should. That's because the abortion debate--which is at bottom a debate about when personhood begins and the right to life is acquired--is insoluble on a philosophical level. It must always be resolved by a naked assertion of force, whether by the courts (Roe v Wade) or by democratic majorities.
By the way, make no mistake--I don't for a second condone Robert Dear's acts.
7
It's not much, but I decided to express my support for Planned Parenthood by donating money.
28
The sad part is that while most everyone will agree with the link between Limbaugh and Fiorina's complete lies directly contributing to these murders, no one in the liberal camp has the guts to stand up and say it, and continue to say it until it stops. And Republicans know that liberals are just such wimps, so they say whatever they want because they know there are NO consequences from the other side. Conservatives know they can just say "it's not the time to make this political" and get away with it. So where is the person or news organization with the backbone to say that Fiorina, Limbaugh, et al are complicit in the murder or a police officer and an Iraq war veteran?
17
Thank you for writing about the role of our Republican national leaders in these acts of violence. The news media tip toe around the issue of Republican lies and comments inciting people to violence. Blaming the violence on those who are mentally ill misses the point. The Christian Right is not acting Christian or right.
24
The FBI should screen Christian extremists as potential terrorist like they do with people of that other faith.. For starters, put them also on a list that won't allow them to purchase guns legally.
17
Why do I think opponents of abortion (and often of most contraception) do need to distance themselves from anti-abortion terrorists, while muslims should not be expected to distance themselves from jihadists? Answer: Because the anti-abortion terrorists are working for the same cause as opponents of abortion, namely, to prevent abortions. The Islam of the vast majority of muslims is a religion of peace, far from the Islam that the jihadists expound.
6
Given the hypocrisy of this issue, it has to be political. Republican and Democratic women alike seek abortions. Who are we to judge? It was a Supreme Court decision, it is the law. Those who oppose ought to ask themselves: do you support the death penalty? Do you support war, death and dying of 'others'? How can this be different? A life is a life. Leave these women to their choices. It is their body, it is their circumstance that brings this to an option. Mind your own business. Your choice is yours, but respect is due others who choose differently. This is not your fight. Spend your time and money and give to our Veterans, our homeless, education, food banks. Christian values that can be applauded. Not issues you have no right to judge. Give a thought as how you would respond to anyone judging your decisions. They have no idea, neither do you.
244
"A life is a life" does not apply to abortions. A cluster of cells is no more a life than your kidney is. We need to stop drawing comparisons between abortions and wars, abortions and capital punishment, etc - it just gives more fodder to the "abortion providers are murdering babies" camp.
1
I continue to be amazed at what people are willing to do in Christ's name. Things that are about as opposite of Jesus as they could possibly be.
1
Too much common sense on your posting, tea party mongers and Christian extremes lack such common sense.
1
Every day for a week protesters stood outside a local hospital here with signs that equated the hospital with Auschwitz because it provided abortions. Then one day the protesters weren't there. The next day they were back. What was different on the day they stayed home? Why, it was raining! So, I thought, you believe abortion is murder, you literally believe babies are being murdered on a scale that equals the Holocaust, and yet you stayed home because it was raining? No doubt this is how the Nazis got away with it. It's always raining in Germany.
Hans: "I hear they are killing babies at Auschwitz. Should we go protest?"
Fritz: "I don't know, what's the weather supposed to be like?"
Hans: "I hear they are killing babies at Auschwitz. Should we go protest?"
Fritz: "I don't know, what's the weather supposed to be like?"
9
The "violent anti-abortion speech" the author refers to is generally just a description of the abortion process and the harvesting of fetus body parts for research. What was in the videos that was inflammatory beyond their accurate description of what went on at Planned Parenthood? Abortion itself is violent and needs no inflammatory rhetoric.
If abortion were not as distasteful as it is, PP would would be touting its record of abortions, rather than minimizing how much abortion contributes to its bottom line. (I love how PP notes that abortions only account for 3% of PP "procedures" - but that assumes that a STD or pregnancy test is equivalent to an abortion as one procedure. In fact if PP only did abortions but gave every woman who came in for an abortion a pregnancy test for confirmation, their current methodology would state that only 50% of their procedures were abortions.)
If abortion were not as distasteful as it is, PP would would be touting its record of abortions, rather than minimizing how much abortion contributes to its bottom line. (I love how PP notes that abortions only account for 3% of PP "procedures" - but that assumes that a STD or pregnancy test is equivalent to an abortion as one procedure. In fact if PP only did abortions but gave every woman who came in for an abortion a pregnancy test for confirmation, their current methodology would state that only 50% of their procedures were abortions.)
3
Jim, no one says "let's have an abortion today! What fun!"
I had a craniotomy 20 years ago. Want the gory details? My head was shaved and a bone saw cut through my skull. Six ours of bloody, gory surgery later I was put back together. Sound recreational to you?
Want to compare surgeons to nazis because of the gore? What happens when it's your appendix or spleen or brain...no surgery? Abortions save lives every day. Protesters cost them.
I had a craniotomy 20 years ago. Want the gory details? My head was shaved and a bone saw cut through my skull. Six ours of bloody, gory surgery later I was put back together. Sound recreational to you?
Want to compare surgeons to nazis because of the gore? What happens when it's your appendix or spleen or brain...no surgery? Abortions save lives every day. Protesters cost them.
2
To deny the level of heated rhetoric from the majority of GOP candidates on this issue is nothing short of delusional.
Contrary to your twisted assertion, I am sure that 100% of PP employees and supporters would wish that there are ZERO abortions. Anti-choice Republicans, hypocrites that they are, consistently do nothing to reach that goal beyond the absurdist Nancy Reaganism's of 'just don't do it'.
Absolute nonsense from the party of nonsense.
Contrary to your twisted assertion, I am sure that 100% of PP employees and supporters would wish that there are ZERO abortions. Anti-choice Republicans, hypocrites that they are, consistently do nothing to reach that goal beyond the absurdist Nancy Reaganism's of 'just don't do it'.
Absolute nonsense from the party of nonsense.
2
You can't make a real argument against anything relying on obviously doctored video footage. But it's perfect for inflaming the sickest souls among us.
2
The Times purports to be a champion of free speech. including all kinds of inflammatory speech. Defending cartoons of Mohammed which are sure to incite violence is totally inconsistent with attacking the inflammatory speech here. The right to speak your mind, without concern for the reaction of extremists, is a core First Amendment right. Floyd Abrams has to be totally disgusted.
1
@michjas
Phoenix
"is totally inconsistent with attacking the inflammatory speech here."
So you admit the central thesis of this article. Inflammatory speech by anti abortion activists is very likely to result in acts of murder and violence against abortion providers but that's fine by you.
Phoenix
"is totally inconsistent with attacking the inflammatory speech here."
So you admit the central thesis of this article. Inflammatory speech by anti abortion activists is very likely to result in acts of murder and violence against abortion providers but that's fine by you.
15
American law (yes, I am admitted to the practice of law in the State of New York) has long recognized that the First Amendment right to freedom of expression is not an absolute right. You cannot shout fire in a crowded theatre for example. Legal history is littered with cases where individuals are successfully prosecuted for inciting riots. If you want to test the limits of free speech, try growing a dark beard and shouting "death to America" at the Phoenix airport. Do you think you will make your flight?
4
michjas; you're confusing freedom of speech with freedom from criticism. Criticizing what other people say, or the way in which they say it, is itself free speech. From a first amendment point of view, there is no contradiction between defending someone's legal right to the most deplorable hate speech--while vigorously condemning their judgment. The point is to foster debate and the exchange of ideas and opinions, not to guarantee respect for anything you say.
4
Actually, what Roe vs. Wade did was to rule unconstitutional laws that made it illegal for doctors to give abortions. The current situation is a direct consequence of the *separate means unequal* principle in civil rights.
By failing to provide abortions in outpatient clinics in major medical centers, the medical profession endangers women's lives by forcing them to go to *separate* clinics where they become targets for violence, and their right to privacy is violated by the mere fact of having to go to a separate clinic.
If abortion where among the many other procedures performed in outpatient clinics in major medical centers these protests would disappear. Protesters can be banned from hospitals which are private property, and no one would know if a women entering a medical center was going to have an ultrasound, chemotherapy, knee surgery or an abortion.
The vast majority of physicians do not believe that abortion is wrong (and those who do should not be required to be involved). But they exacerbate the problem by refusing to be involved and forcing women out into the cold in separate facilities.
By failing to provide abortions in outpatient clinics in major medical centers, the medical profession endangers women's lives by forcing them to go to *separate* clinics where they become targets for violence, and their right to privacy is violated by the mere fact of having to go to a separate clinic.
If abortion where among the many other procedures performed in outpatient clinics in major medical centers these protests would disappear. Protesters can be banned from hospitals which are private property, and no one would know if a women entering a medical center was going to have an ultrasound, chemotherapy, knee surgery or an abortion.
The vast majority of physicians do not believe that abortion is wrong (and those who do should not be required to be involved). But they exacerbate the problem by refusing to be involved and forcing women out into the cold in separate facilities.
15
There has been a sea change in the Republican Party. The GOP has created an unholy alliance, a fusion of Tea Party gun rights activists with Christian Evangelists that has adopted a virulent disrespect for a woman's rights to seek healthcare on her own terms. These two extremist groups form the core of today's Republican Party. Until the Republican leadership speaks out forcefully condemning this madness we can expect more domestic terrorism against a woman's right to chose according to the law of the land.
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"the Republican leadership"... there is no such a thing, they are all following the MONEY tea party mongers and extreme Christians are giving them. NO WAY they are going to calm things down. Either way, I don't blame the RP as much as a blame CHURCHES and CHURCH LEADERS for it.
It is them that do the Sunday 'speech' by using incendiary, violent terms such as a BABY PARTS... (they call them babies when it is an UNBORN).
It is them that do the Sunday 'speech' by using incendiary, violent terms such as a BABY PARTS... (they call them babies when it is an UNBORN).
1
Jefflz - Problem is that there is no sane, reasonable, responsible Republican leadership -- all there is are hatemongering, divisive, bigoted, bloviators who have no ideas or plans to make this a better or safer country. Every one of them -- Rubio, Cruz, Fiorina, Christie, Trump etal are not worthy of being dogcatcher in a small town -- and the other voices in the GOP -- McCain, McConnell etc are vicious old men who long ago should have retired but instead hang on only for the sake of seeing their mugs in the news periodically not because they have anything positive to contribute.
1
The virulent disrespect goes beyond woman's rights but includes anyone who disagrees with their positions on gun control, same sex marriage, medical protection, etc.
What occured is another shooting that just happened to be at an abortion clinic and instead of talking about the politics of guns we are talking about the politics of abortion. The sad thing is that abortion i.e. women are losing and guns are wining.
5
A) the shooting occurred at Planned Parenthood, not an "abortion clinic".
B) it's pretty clear by now that it didn't randomly "just happen" there
B) it's pretty clear by now that it didn't randomly "just happen" there
1
And on the other side I found this today. It is hard to read I haven't finished it yet. http://www.startribune.com/why-are-we-so-quick-to-blame-murders-on-pro-l...
But I think it may provide a partial answer to the question raised. I have never heard of any violence against anti abortion proponents or protesters. I do not follow the issue closely.
I found it interesting that the author seems to think the amount of violence in either direction is almost equal with slightly more occurring to pro choice victims. ????? It actually passive aggressively accuses the NYT and most reporters whom they allege do not report the crimes they claim are happening in the other direction as well as pro life people who point out this correlation of anti abortion rhetoric & the violence at women's health care clinics, is promoting the violence it claims is occurring to anti abortion movement supporters in exactly the same way.
I never heard of the murder they allege was pro choice against anti abortionist o of anyone doing what anti abortionists do to innocent woemn and medical personnel.
But I think it may provide a partial answer to the question raised. I have never heard of any violence against anti abortion proponents or protesters. I do not follow the issue closely.
I found it interesting that the author seems to think the amount of violence in either direction is almost equal with slightly more occurring to pro choice victims. ????? It actually passive aggressively accuses the NYT and most reporters whom they allege do not report the crimes they claim are happening in the other direction as well as pro life people who point out this correlation of anti abortion rhetoric & the violence at women's health care clinics, is promoting the violence it claims is occurring to anti abortion movement supporters in exactly the same way.
I never heard of the murder they allege was pro choice against anti abortionist o of anyone doing what anti abortionists do to innocent woemn and medical personnel.
4
This is one of the realities of "free speech". If there's incitement to commit a crime, then legal action can be taken. Failing that, it has to be tolerated in the current constitutional set up.
We should not ignore the fact that some unexpected but monumental shifts in American public opinion started with annoying fringe groups. The abolitionists come to mind. One really never knows where public opinion will go in the future.
Who would have thought that 200 years after the slave trade was banned in the USA (1807) that a black man would be elected president (after an intervening civil war, abolition of slavery, and the civil rights movement)? I doubt the possibility of electing a black president would have polled well in 1807.
Some social issues are resolved quickly (e.g., Stonewall, 1969 to Lawrence v. Texas, 2003, i.e., 34 years), some may take 200. R v W is just under 50 years old. I think it's a bit premature to consider the matter settled, regardless of the polling. Let the fringe groups continue to battle for public opinion and time will tell.
We should not ignore the fact that some unexpected but monumental shifts in American public opinion started with annoying fringe groups. The abolitionists come to mind. One really never knows where public opinion will go in the future.
Who would have thought that 200 years after the slave trade was banned in the USA (1807) that a black man would be elected president (after an intervening civil war, abolition of slavery, and the civil rights movement)? I doubt the possibility of electing a black president would have polled well in 1807.
Some social issues are resolved quickly (e.g., Stonewall, 1969 to Lawrence v. Texas, 2003, i.e., 34 years), some may take 200. R v W is just under 50 years old. I think it's a bit premature to consider the matter settled, regardless of the polling. Let the fringe groups continue to battle for public opinion and time will tell.
2
Anti-abortionist are indeed terrorist. These are folks who believe it is fine to deny folks their rights because they think they know best, even if it means killing them. Sound familiar? These folks can not see it in themselves because they believe their cause is a religious crusade and everyone else is just mislead. Democracy is not what they want. They wish for a religious theocracy. Terrorism comes in many guises and Republicans play Russian roulette by stoking the home grown variety. We need to defeat these folks in the next election.
21
So, in the same vein that the West endlessly asks Muslim leaders and clerics to denounce terrorist violence done in the name of Islam,
when will we hear a similar clamor, this time aimed at American Christian politicians and clerics, to unequivocally denounce terrorist violence in the name of Christianity or Christian morals?
when will we hear a similar clamor, this time aimed at American Christian politicians and clerics, to unequivocally denounce terrorist violence in the name of Christianity or Christian morals?
19
I challenge Ms. Fiorina and Mr. Cruz to sit down with the families of those killed and injured in the PP attack and help them understand that "leftist tactics by transgendered people" are responsible for their suffering and deaths. They are simply unfit to govern.
21
One reason anti-abortion arguments get as much support as they do is, perversely, because abortion is legal. Were we suddenly thrust back into the pre-Roe v. Wade world of back alley or DIY abortions for the poor and surreptitious physician performed abortions for the well to do, I suspect America would quickly become less receptive to anti-abortion rhetoric. Finally, it was inevitable that the GOP candidates would contort themselves into announcing that their anti-Planned Parenthood poses had nothing to do with what happened in Colorado Springs. But when you set in motion a hate campaign should anyone be surprised that the unstable see this as an invitation to violence? We are a nation of more than 300 million people. Certainly there are enough combustibles among us to respond to bogus cries of "Fire" shouted by the Fiorinas, Huckabees, Cruzes et al. Have these politicians no shame?
248
Obviously they do not have any shame. Fiorina was still ranting about "baby parts" AFTER the video she quoted was proven false.
not only don't they have any shame, they have no regard for truth or reason. that's why they're effective as politicians.
The screaming fire analogy is a flat tire and as a weird defense of indigenous slaughter it does not roll far from a similar evil, The Sierra Club.
Early on in a drought they sued, lobbied and propagandized against early harvest of forests doomed to Pine Bark beetle infestation that could surely be interpreted as a deliberate means to an end... bolstering the climate alarmist argument with "natural fires" and overlapping overpopulation as another "man-made" cause in constructing Venn diagrams .
That is hearing "fire" in a theatre, folks! Meanwhile they promote the unplanned child charade all over the globe.
http://www.sierraclub.org/population
Early on in a drought they sued, lobbied and propagandized against early harvest of forests doomed to Pine Bark beetle infestation that could surely be interpreted as a deliberate means to an end... bolstering the climate alarmist argument with "natural fires" and overlapping overpopulation as another "man-made" cause in constructing Venn diagrams .
That is hearing "fire" in a theatre, folks! Meanwhile they promote the unplanned child charade all over the globe.
http://www.sierraclub.org/population
" Meanwhile, I’m not aware of any prominent abortion opponents who have publicly accepted responsibility for fomenting violence by using language that equates abortion with the Holocaust or murder on an industrial scale — atrocities that would seem to call for resistance by any means necessary."
Indeed. Most Americans believe that violence is appropriate when used to protect life. The fact that most abortion clinics in this country are not smouldering ruins suggests that people don't really believe the rhetoric. But some do. And this leads to violence. I say, if you really believe the bile that comes out of your mouth, Ms. Fiorina, then why haven't you taken up arms yourself?
Indeed. Most Americans believe that violence is appropriate when used to protect life. The fact that most abortion clinics in this country are not smouldering ruins suggests that people don't really believe the rhetoric. But some do. And this leads to violence. I say, if you really believe the bile that comes out of your mouth, Ms. Fiorina, then why haven't you taken up arms yourself?
6
The Republican double-standards here are astonishing: when the topic is international terrorism, there is no action too sweeping or inapt to be dismissed as a tool in the "war on terror" - military involvement, torture, illegal surveillance, spending billions upon billions, suspending Constitutional protections, all done. Yet, when we are faced with domestic terrorism, there is no action they don't find too sweeping or inapt - gun control, not lying about abortion, not fanning the flames of Christian zealotry. No, say the Republicans, these are "un-American," "un-Constitutional," "a war on Christianity," or "the leftwing media." Amazing the difference in willpower about protecting Americans from danger by different names.
20
Years ago I was a midwife & worked in clinics counseling women who were having abortions.
A man with a baby entered the building with gasoline & threatened to set us on fire..
A man waited outside the clinic, threw our doctor to the ground, & held a gun to his head. We threw cash & saved him.
After being followed by a van as he jogged, he carried a loaded gun under his lab coat. We had attack dogs on clinic days.
One night there were men at an ice cream parlor near our clinic wearing red jackets with white letters spelling out "Army of God". We laughed. We had never heard of an Army of God. Then we were firebombed.
I would like nothing more than to find a quiet place where people mind their own business & don't torture women who are not in a position to carry their babies to term - it is an unhappy & desperate place to be.
Nobody likes abortion. But we have no maternity leave here & little maternal care available without insurance. & there is little sympathy for those who find themselves pregnant & unmarried, especially if are very young, even if they are raped by older men - not uncommon.
Can we even mention the number of men who drop their sperm and walk away?
Aside from all the rhetoric, it should be a question of guiding a woman or girl through her experience with as little harm as possible. And that is what is lost in all this screaming about abortions and dead babies -- the girls and women that find themselves in an untenable situation and desperately need help.
A man with a baby entered the building with gasoline & threatened to set us on fire..
A man waited outside the clinic, threw our doctor to the ground, & held a gun to his head. We threw cash & saved him.
After being followed by a van as he jogged, he carried a loaded gun under his lab coat. We had attack dogs on clinic days.
One night there were men at an ice cream parlor near our clinic wearing red jackets with white letters spelling out "Army of God". We laughed. We had never heard of an Army of God. Then we were firebombed.
I would like nothing more than to find a quiet place where people mind their own business & don't torture women who are not in a position to carry their babies to term - it is an unhappy & desperate place to be.
Nobody likes abortion. But we have no maternity leave here & little maternal care available without insurance. & there is little sympathy for those who find themselves pregnant & unmarried, especially if are very young, even if they are raped by older men - not uncommon.
Can we even mention the number of men who drop their sperm and walk away?
Aside from all the rhetoric, it should be a question of guiding a woman or girl through her experience with as little harm as possible. And that is what is lost in all this screaming about abortions and dead babies -- the girls and women that find themselves in an untenable situation and desperately need help.
287
and here is some of the stuff I couldn't fit in the comment:
When a daughter of one those vehemently picketing us would become pregnant, we would usher her in through the back door to avoid embarrassment, provide an abortion, then watch them return to harassing clients..this was not uncommon.
Lest you think the Army of God is a joke here are some links:
you can read about them here: http://www.armyofgod.com
and here: http://www.alternet.org/…/army-god-6-modern-day-christian-t…
You can join them here, they are still recruiting: http://www.aogusa.org
Because I can't remember the date that we were firebombed, I googled my doctor's name and could find no mention of the firebombings, although they happened. What I did find, however, were violent and heinous websites with lists and lists of dead doctors and the names and addresses of others they wish dead.
like this one: http://www.christiangallery.com/atrocity/aborts.html
and this one: http://www.forerunner.com/fyi/nauert-george-michael
I realize there are good hearted people who oppose abortion. But if you are to be responsible, knowing this other stuff is out there, please ramp down the baby killing rhetoric..especially when you are seeking of a fetus that is so early it cannot survive outside the womb.
When a daughter of one those vehemently picketing us would become pregnant, we would usher her in through the back door to avoid embarrassment, provide an abortion, then watch them return to harassing clients..this was not uncommon.
Lest you think the Army of God is a joke here are some links:
you can read about them here: http://www.armyofgod.com
and here: http://www.alternet.org/…/army-god-6-modern-day-christian-t…
You can join them here, they are still recruiting: http://www.aogusa.org
Because I can't remember the date that we were firebombed, I googled my doctor's name and could find no mention of the firebombings, although they happened. What I did find, however, were violent and heinous websites with lists and lists of dead doctors and the names and addresses of others they wish dead.
like this one: http://www.christiangallery.com/atrocity/aborts.html
and this one: http://www.forerunner.com/fyi/nauert-george-michael
I realize there are good hearted people who oppose abortion. But if you are to be responsible, knowing this other stuff is out there, please ramp down the baby killing rhetoric..especially when you are seeking of a fetus that is so early it cannot survive outside the womb.
9
especially when you are *speaking of a fetus that is so early it cannot survive outside the womb.
1
Sadly, the people who perpetuate such vitriol rhetoric will not stop because they are using it to advance their ambition. People like Carly Fiorina. This is really the NRA gun strategy. Every time there is a mass shooting, it just doubles down. So are these Planned Parenthood critics. Forget about if there is any truth in their criticism. Anyone with any shred of conscience might want to do some soul searching but these people would say they didn't do anything wrong. But hey, had they had any conscience at all they would not have made distorted accusations to begin with
79
Bos:
"Forget about if there is any truth in their criticism. "
That would be convenient. Planned Parenthood was, in fact, engaging in the harvesting of fetal body parts for medical research. Many Americans found this offensive.
There's a reason Planned Parenthood is stopping the practice. To "forget" about these facts sweeps below the rug too much of the controversy.
"Forget about if there is any truth in their criticism. "
That would be convenient. Planned Parenthood was, in fact, engaging in the harvesting of fetal body parts for medical research. Many Americans found this offensive.
There's a reason Planned Parenthood is stopping the practice. To "forget" about these facts sweeps below the rug too much of the controversy.
Terrorism can work. It does not always work. The difference is in the society of those it seeks to terrorize.
If they rally around, then terrorism fails. If they act as the sea in which terrorists swim, then it succeeds.
The terrorists are not just incited, they are assisted in their goals by those who incite them. It is all one. On a larger scale, those who incite are just as much terrorists as those who shoot.
The right wing says that all the time about its enemies, and the US sends drones to back that up.
So the terrorist was not just Robert L. Dear Jr., it was also Ted Cruz and others uttering the wild talk and welcoming the support of that talk.
If they rally around, then terrorism fails. If they act as the sea in which terrorists swim, then it succeeds.
The terrorists are not just incited, they are assisted in their goals by those who incite them. It is all one. On a larger scale, those who incite are just as much terrorists as those who shoot.
The right wing says that all the time about its enemies, and the US sends drones to back that up.
So the terrorist was not just Robert L. Dear Jr., it was also Ted Cruz and others uttering the wild talk and welcoming the support of that talk.
102
Mr. Thomason thank-you for your insights.
1
@Mark Thomason: The best evidence that terrorism works, and that anti-abortion extremists are terrorists, is the fact that American doctors are terrified to provide abortions. The anti-abortion movement has succeeded in bullying and intimidating the practice of abortion almost out of existence in many areas of this country. Eight percent of counties in the United States do not have a single abortion provider. Why? Because doctors know that if they provide abortions their lives will be at risk, and they and their families will be relentlessly hounded and harassed every day.
1
Thank you for this article and for stating the truth, something few in the media are willing to do.
I have never understood how people can kill in the name of protecting life. It's a form of behavioral oxymoronism. Sort of like a Jew deciding to hold protests outside delicatessens that sell pork and shrimp, preventing non-Jews from purchasing these products.
I realize that's a terrible analogy but in essence it's what the antiabortion crowd is doing. In the name of their God they are imposing the behavioral consequences of their religion on women who may or may not be religious, may or may not be Christian or Catholic , but who in any event are not exactly dancing their way to the abortion center.
The other thing I find abhorrent is what I read in one of the first posts to this article which is to say, antiabortion protesters have been known to seek abortions from the very doctors who are the targets of their most virulent protests.
The hit job done on Planned Parenthood in deliberately distorted videos produced by zealots at the Center for medical progress – what a name –spurred a mass media campaign against Planned Parenthood that the Republicans took up with great glee this summer. It's pretty clear to me that the vitriol and repetition of their comments played a part in the unhinged rage of Robert Dear. They will never admit it but the association is undeniable, as is the responsibility.
Words have consequences as unfortunately we have seen in recent days.
I have never understood how people can kill in the name of protecting life. It's a form of behavioral oxymoronism. Sort of like a Jew deciding to hold protests outside delicatessens that sell pork and shrimp, preventing non-Jews from purchasing these products.
I realize that's a terrible analogy but in essence it's what the antiabortion crowd is doing. In the name of their God they are imposing the behavioral consequences of their religion on women who may or may not be religious, may or may not be Christian or Catholic , but who in any event are not exactly dancing their way to the abortion center.
The other thing I find abhorrent is what I read in one of the first posts to this article which is to say, antiabortion protesters have been known to seek abortions from the very doctors who are the targets of their most virulent protests.
The hit job done on Planned Parenthood in deliberately distorted videos produced by zealots at the Center for medical progress – what a name –spurred a mass media campaign against Planned Parenthood that the Republicans took up with great glee this summer. It's pretty clear to me that the vitriol and repetition of their comments played a part in the unhinged rage of Robert Dear. They will never admit it but the association is undeniable, as is the responsibility.
Words have consequences as unfortunately we have seen in recent days.
159
I so look forward to reading anything you write, Ms. Morrow, but I have to agree with you that the Jews picketing a delicatessen is a really bad analogy. One reason it's so bad is that the Pro Life crowd don't stop at picketing and other RESPONSIBLE methods of protest, they speak in ways that cause others to commit violent acts, like this most recent one. Perhaps the analogy would be more on point if the Jews were threatening anyone attempting to buy from the delicatessen or screaming that anyone eating any of what the place sells will go to Hell.
Anyhow, thank you for your comments, they are always worthy of reading.
Anyhow, thank you for your comments, they are always worthy of reading.
1
That's a poor analogy and you know that. There are no protesters telling people what to eat or to wear, or what church to attend.
They are protesting the killing of human lives. Imagine if such protests had existed in Nazi Germany -- against the death camps! Even if they did not convince Hitler, the protests would have brought knowledge of the death camps to the press.
You and other lefties want to treat this as if it were of no more concern to the public than having a pedicure. But if the protesters honestly believe human lives are being ended -- some killing VIABLE human fetuses who could live outside the womb -- then they are entirely in their rights to protest. And the Supreme Court (*that you worship, when they AGREE with you) has said they have this right, & that it is free speech.
The post stating that "lots of abortion protesters go inside and have abortions" is an allegation, not founded with any proof -- just hearsay and conjecture. (How could you prove this? it would be a horrible violation of HIPPA.) The protesters can say "fetuses in the 3rd trimester feel pain" and you can say "no", and science perhaps can give us an answer. But about what is in people's hearts & minds -- not so much. Even worse, I find it incredible that abortion doctors open the office and do procedures at night for protesters -- but not for regular patients. Seriously, is that credible to you?
Lastly: I viewed the long video. You clearly did not. It is not distorted or edited in any way.
They are protesting the killing of human lives. Imagine if such protests had existed in Nazi Germany -- against the death camps! Even if they did not convince Hitler, the protests would have brought knowledge of the death camps to the press.
You and other lefties want to treat this as if it were of no more concern to the public than having a pedicure. But if the protesters honestly believe human lives are being ended -- some killing VIABLE human fetuses who could live outside the womb -- then they are entirely in their rights to protest. And the Supreme Court (*that you worship, when they AGREE with you) has said they have this right, & that it is free speech.
The post stating that "lots of abortion protesters go inside and have abortions" is an allegation, not founded with any proof -- just hearsay and conjecture. (How could you prove this? it would be a horrible violation of HIPPA.) The protesters can say "fetuses in the 3rd trimester feel pain" and you can say "no", and science perhaps can give us an answer. But about what is in people's hearts & minds -- not so much. Even worse, I find it incredible that abortion doctors open the office and do procedures at night for protesters -- but not for regular patients. Seriously, is that credible to you?
Lastly: I viewed the long video. You clearly did not. It is not distorted or edited in any way.
2
" Sort of like a Jew deciding to hold protests outside delicatessens that sell pork and shrimp"
Oh dear. What can I say to someone who does not know the difference between a pig and a person?
Consider a different analogy. Anti-Nazi Germans protesting outside Auschwitz.
Is it an unfair analogy? Perhaps, but so is yours.
Oh dear. What can I say to someone who does not know the difference between a pig and a person?
Consider a different analogy. Anti-Nazi Germans protesting outside Auschwitz.
Is it an unfair analogy? Perhaps, but so is yours.
3
And sadly, the same goes for death threats against members of the LGBT community. When Cruz, Huckabee and Jindal (all 3 of them presidential candidates) attended some preacher's event in November where he was calling for gays to be put to death, they all thought it was perfectly fine. I'm sorry but they are no different than extremist muslims calling for Americans or Westerners to be killed. Amazing that you can be pro-life and go around murdering people. But then again, because he was a white male it was probably a mental health issue.
131
And not only that - every argument will be made that he was not conscious of what he was doing at the time, that he was under severest stress, that he had an unhappy childhood, the usual arguments made in oprder to try and get a lenient sentence for what amounts to as a cold-blooded murderer.
I guess in the eyes of pro-lifers pro-choicers are the same as Christians or non-Islamists are, as you stated, for the IS. Instead of marching off to teach other countries how great democracy is by means of guns and bombs, perhaps America should better clean up its own mess at home. And, above all, Politicians, stop coddling those fanatics instead of worrying whether a stance against those people will cost you votes.
I guess in the eyes of pro-lifers pro-choicers are the same as Christians or non-Islamists are, as you stated, for the IS. Instead of marching off to teach other countries how great democracy is by means of guns and bombs, perhaps America should better clean up its own mess at home. And, above all, Politicians, stop coddling those fanatics instead of worrying whether a stance against those people will cost you votes.
Unfortunately, people like Cruz and Huckabee will see no hypocrisy in this because they hold a fairly clearly defined distinction between real people that matter and those who are outside of their pale and, therefore, don't matter.
Excellent remark, thank you.
1
The violence and inflammatory rhetoric make it even more disconcerting that last year, the Supreme Court struck down buffer zones outside women's clinics. The threat is real, of both physical violence and verbal intimidation. At the time of this wrong-minded ruling, Planned Parenthood tried to offer its safety resources to those who utilize its services, but one organization cannot take on entrenched, nationwide, domestic terrorism. Bring back safety zones!
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I agree - bring back safe zones!
And to follow up on this ... I've never understood why the right to free speech trumps the right to privacy. It seems to me that safe zone provide that right to privacy - for patients and providers - yet hate speech, masquerading as free speech, is allowed to take precedence.
And to follow up on this ... I've never understood why the right to free speech trumps the right to privacy. It seems to me that safe zone provide that right to privacy - for patients and providers - yet hate speech, masquerading as free speech, is allowed to take precedence.
3
Only complete idiots or psychotics could view the harassment outside of PP clinics as constitutionally protected free exercise of religion.
1
The irony of SCOTUS and many state legislatures in opposing buffer zones for women's reproductive health care sites while vigorously requiring them for their own courts and state houses is not lost on me.
3
While you can't blame the murders in Colorado Springs on anti-abortion rhetoric and activists, you can say that edited videos, disingenuously referred to by demagogues like Carly Fiorina, create an environment that makes it easier for disturbed loners,like Robert Dear,to justify their actions. Christian Fundamentalists spearheaded the attacks on PPH AND are mortal enemies of individual freedom and personal autonomy. Their attempts to impose their Dogma of religious superstition on America is no different than Muslim fundamentalists in the Middle East. Christians use Biblical Scripture as a justification for intolerance and bigotry. Ironically, Muslims use the Koran for the same purpose. The specifics are different in degree and substance, but the intolerance and subjugation of women are endemic.
88
Take it a step further: ISIS has taken a page from their book. ISIS encourages "lone wolf" attacks just like anti abortion groups do. How do we separate the tactics into terrorist and non terrorist? Religion? Skin color?
3
The video was not edited. There were 2 videos released, the same day. One was a short 9 minute "highlight reel" for the media. The second was the full length, UNEDITED 3 hour meeting with PP executives -- and they admitted as much.
1
It isn't really so ironic. Christian and Islamic fundamentalists believe essentially the same stories. Their roots are firmly implanted in the same soil. The real irony, at least concerning the Islamic side, is that those stories originated with the Israelites, or Jews if you wish.
4
Right. When are white Christian anti-abortion activists going to be asked to intervene early before budding terrorists like Dear explode into fatal action? The anti-abortion groups won't even condemn his actions, and neither will the GOP Presidential candidates who've used similarly incendiary language .
Our country has veered dangerously into right wing territory , where intolerance, misogyny and gun-loving are cardinal virtues .
Our country has veered dangerously into right wing territory , where intolerance, misogyny and gun-loving are cardinal virtues .
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I think we belittle the problem by referring to it s "right wing" - it is in another realm, not just a normal "wing" of political action in a democracy - it is inherently anti-democratic, totalitarian., and ready to use armed insurrection to impose its order on the local democracy.
1
This country is one of the worst enablers of abject creeps on this planet. Its notions about free exercise of religion are from Hell.
67
There should be free exercise of religion in their sanctuaries, not on the streets.
3
Intimidation and repression, denying rights of others.
Domestic terrorists.
Domestic terrorists.
62
You raise the point about BLM but don't finish the thought. Indeed, black leadership never walks back incendiary speech targeting police. Further, Obama himself either outright declares or strongly infers young black men have reason to be upset and act it. It's all inflammatory speech. What's legal is legal and what's not should be prosecuted.
6
Interesting comment. Abortion is legal and "What's legal is legal and what's not should be prosecuted." So, those seeking to intimidate and terrorize women seeking a service that is their legal right should be prosecuted. I agree.
6
The reality is that Obama repeatedly condemns violent rhetoric against the police and even praises them. Not to mention there is only one documented case of violent rhetoric at a Black Lives Matter rally. Violent anti-abortion rhetoric has been going on for decades, and used not just by a random person shouting at a rally, but by the movements' leaders and the politicians and officeholders who support it. Drawing comparisons between the two is ridiculous.
3
I think I recall Black Lives Matter and the President pointing out that young black men are profiled and that while in some cases the police officers acted appropriately, in others they did not. Pointing out an issue and offering compassion to those who feel that things are not fair is not inflammatory and in other speeches he has called on young African Americans to take more control of their own lives, to reach their own potential. It is not inflammatory to point out that abortion is morally troubling for many people and to understand that not everyone agrees with it. But are there better ways to reach the same goal--to make abortion rarer--rather than the kind of thing Rush Limbaugh suggests (abortion with a gun)? That's inflammatory. If you have heard something similar from President Obama, would you please quote it for me, because all I heard him say was that if he had a son he might have been like Trayvon Martin, stalked and killed because he looked suspicious to George Zimmerman. I never once heard him say that killing police officers was understandable. I have heard him say the opposite.
5
Terrorism under federal regulations is "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives" (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85).
This was terrorism.
This was terrorism.
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Perhaps this law should be amended to include the use of incendiary language and media to incite others to violence as terrorism, since this is the standard we use in judging others (ISIS) as terrorists vs "politicians" or "religious leaders".
3
Correct. And, by the same definition, so is most of US military action.
1
The FBI defines "domestic terrorism" as "activities with the following three characteristics:
- Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
- Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
- Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.
The activities of the violent anti-abortion "activists" clearly meet all the criteria.
And besides the denial that these people are terrorists, we are now hearing protests that their violent acts are somehow unrelated to the violent rhetoric of the right-wing extremists.
- Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
- Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
- Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.
The activities of the violent anti-abortion "activists" clearly meet all the criteria.
And besides the denial that these people are terrorists, we are now hearing protests that their violent acts are somehow unrelated to the violent rhetoric of the right-wing extremists.
106
Here's a term we should all become familiar with, because it is what is going on with anti-abortion violence: stochastic terrorism. This is the use of mass communications to stir up random lone wolves to carry out violent or terrorist acts that are statistically predictable but individually unpredictable. It is how the Tutsi's were stirred to mass murder against their neighbors the Hutu. We need to figure out a way to counteract the increasing rhetoric of violence on the right to stop the ongoing attacks on women's rights. Of course we need real gun control too.
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We should borrow a page from their playbook, and run ads depicting the results of those injured or killed by their anti-abortion terror. Graphics seem to play well in the media.
1
It's also one of the most important strategies, mostly implemented through the Internet, of ISIS. The attack on the train in France thwarted by those three American military men is a case in point.
One reason angry protests, arson, and murder of abortion providers are not denounced is because America is a violent nation. It's part of the culture. It's unexceptional. Even the murder of 20 children didn't move the country to enact minimal gun control.
Guns and violencpe are part of the fabric of American history and life. When the only solution to mass murders is more guns, you know you live in a very sick country.
Guns and violencpe are part of the fabric of American history and life. When the only solution to mass murders is more guns, you know you live in a very sick country.
64
Well said Eric.
Thank you for writing this Ms. Pollitt. And thank you to the NYT for publishing it. Now, what I want to see is the NYT Editorial Board coming out with a similarly forceful statement.
77
And I want to see Katha Pollitt as a regular NY Times columnist!
4
Robert L. Dear is no less a terrorist than the eight fanatics who slaughtered 130 people in Paris on November 13. I was there, having dinner at a restaurant just steps away from the places where patrons at sidewalk cafes were mowed down with semi-automatic rifle fire. The intent in Colorado Springs and in Paris were the same, to terrify and to kill people. Those not killed were intended to be so terrified as not to continue the way of life that the killer/terrorists deemed too sinful to allow. In Paris, those sins were nothing more than simply living life, having dinner in a café, attending a concert at Bataclan, attending a soccer match. In Colorado Springs the killer/terrorist wanted to kill who he could, and to terrify women into avoiding Planned Parenthood Clinics. This is the definition of terrorism. And just as there are 'clerics' preaching jihad and inciting Islamic fundamentalists to violence, we have 'mainstream' candidates for one of our two major political parties demonizing Planned Parenthood, demonizing immigrants, demonizing 'others'. And when someone acts on the rage and anger these candidates are appealing to, they have the gall to point the finger at 'The Left', their #1 Bogey-Man.
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Say what you will about the Imams who exhort their followers to Jihad, but at least they own their own rhetoric. They don't incite their followers and then turn around and blame someone else when violence happens. In that sense, they're better, or certainly more honest and less hypocritical, than anti-abortion leaders and politicians in this country. If abortion is truly the scourge that they say it is, then they should be proud if someone uses violence to stop it. You can't have it both ways. Unless you don't really care about abortion at all and are just using to anti-abortion rhetoric to get votes and fund raise.
1
People are loth to call something a hate crime if it doesn't affect their particular group. A person can attack a Hasid and then shoot up a synagogue and the police will say it's not a hate crime. Likewise, with this abortion clinic shooter, we are told by the Republican candidates that they aren't sure it was a hate crime for some really strange reasons; he's a leftist and transgender, but one who talks about baby parts. The candidates are fueling this hatred with their lies about the videos. Carly has even said she doesn't care that the videos are fraudulent. She still believes them.
Just verbally attack Hobby Lobby for their beliefs and that is definitely a hate crime against all Christians by GOP standards. The best part of all this hate spewing is how they avail themselves of abortions when it suits them and then go back to denying others. Planned Parenthood is actually in the business of preventing unwanted pregnancies and thereby lowering the incidence of abortion, so by attacking them they are making their problem worse.
Just verbally attack Hobby Lobby for their beliefs and that is definitely a hate crime against all Christians by GOP standards. The best part of all this hate spewing is how they avail themselves of abortions when it suits them and then go back to denying others. Planned Parenthood is actually in the business of preventing unwanted pregnancies and thereby lowering the incidence of abortion, so by attacking them they are making their problem worse.
69
You don't even have to attack Hobby Lobby. All you need to do is say "happy holidays" and you are waging war on Christians.
5
The transgender thing is a distraction (nobody seriously thinks that Robert Dear was a "leftist"). Mr. Cruz was referring to the fact that Mr. Dear had registered to vote as a FEMALE. It isn't clear if this was a mistake or not, or on whose part. Nobody seriously thinks this man is transgender.
It is false that any significant number of anti-abortion protesters actually get abortions themselves. There ARE a few who had abortions, then regretted them, but that is not the same thing as protesting one day, then arriving as a patient the next. This is a specious allegation, which has never been verified and is based entirely on speculation and hearsay.
It is false that any significant number of anti-abortion protesters actually get abortions themselves. There ARE a few who had abortions, then regretted them, but that is not the same thing as protesting one day, then arriving as a patient the next. This is a specious allegation, which has never been verified and is based entirely on speculation and hearsay.
Whatever makes people think that Dear is a leftist?
The sad reality of the anti-abortion zealots is that they don't really care about babies, what they care about is controlling women's reproductive choices and, thereby, controlling women's lives. If such individuals truly cared about babies - unborn or not - they would be equally zealous about supporting early childhood education, child welfare services, maternal and child health initiatives and paid family leave. But they don't - they are the very individuals who are often against such efforts - once the child is born, their concern ends. This is the hypocrisy of the movement - it is not pro-life, it is simply pro-birth.
388
Or, another option: if they are so strongly pro-life, they should offer to adopt the children whose lives they allegedly want to save, and then really do so, rather than just squalling their holier-than-thou phrases and waving their revolting photos around like so many members of IS their black flags.
Of course, you'll never hear such an offer, as raising a child would take two decades of effort, money and love. In a worst-case scenario, they'd raise the unfortunate child to be as fanatic and blinkered as they themselves are.
Of course, you'll never hear such an offer, as raising a child would take two decades of effort, money and love. In a worst-case scenario, they'd raise the unfortunate child to be as fanatic and blinkered as they themselves are.
Seeing as how they oppose funding for prenatal care, it's a hard case to make that they are even pro-birth, or, at least, pro-healthy births.
4
And enslaving women--that is the ultimate goal of people who think this way. Women are not usually inclined to violence, but I think it is going to take female violence to stop this onslaught. Women are full-fledged human beings, regardless of what any religion thinks--including the catholic church and the fundamentalist ones. Women need to abandon these churches in droves.
4
Thank you for writing this. Why is the media ignoring the violence and intimidation of women that occurs outside Planned Parenthood clinics? For many young women, if they have no insurance, or are on medicaid, or their employer doesnt provide health insurance that covers contraception, Planned Parenthood is often their only choice for pelvic exams, birth control prescriptions, and well care. But to get to these, they have to do a perp walk through a gang that assaults them with bloody pictures, shouts of baby killing, and bullying. And they arent even pregnant.
None of our politicians ever speaks about what will replace PP for those who depend on it for contraception and well care - and no politician seems to care about women subjected to bullying and harassment when they are trying to obtain the only care available to them.
My daughter in law was assaulted by a mob on her way in to a PP clinic to obtain a prescriptions for birth control pills. She has been on the pills almost since puberty as she has a disorder characterized by irregular periods and extremely heavy bleeding at unpredictable times. She needs those pills. But until she got married and my son landed a job that had reasonable insurance, PP was their only option. Its terrible when you have to go for a presciption and your husband has to come along to protect you from a mob accusing you of killing a baby you never conceived - especially when you have difficulty conceiving.
None of our politicians ever speaks about what will replace PP for those who depend on it for contraception and well care - and no politician seems to care about women subjected to bullying and harassment when they are trying to obtain the only care available to them.
My daughter in law was assaulted by a mob on her way in to a PP clinic to obtain a prescriptions for birth control pills. She has been on the pills almost since puberty as she has a disorder characterized by irregular periods and extremely heavy bleeding at unpredictable times. She needs those pills. But until she got married and my son landed a job that had reasonable insurance, PP was their only option. Its terrible when you have to go for a presciption and your husband has to come along to protect you from a mob accusing you of killing a baby you never conceived - especially when you have difficulty conceiving.
260
Your daughter could go to any doctor, any clinic, any OB-GYN.
Most PP clinics are located provably in large urban areas, where there are many other clinics and facilities for women. Very few are in remote rural areas.
Under the ACA, every woman can obtain 100% free birth control for the entirety of her fertile life.
Most PP clinics are located provably in large urban areas, where there are many other clinics and facilities for women. Very few are in remote rural areas.
Under the ACA, every woman can obtain 100% free birth control for the entirety of her fertile life.
1
This is the story I tell people. That no one -- women or men-- who use these healthcare clinics should have to run a gauntlet. Would your son be up for telling the story? Some things need to be mansplained for some folks to hear.
1
These evangelical fundamentalist zealots are incapable of the more complex thought process you have presented.
1
I simply cannot understand that we are still debating abortion so many years after Roe vs Wade. This doesn't appear to be an issue in other civilized countries. Why here?
I also don't understand the many men who get so worked up and angry about access to abortion. Why should perfect strangers have a say in something so personal and private?
I also don't understand the many men who get so worked up and angry about access to abortion. Why should perfect strangers have a say in something so personal and private?
185
Because those men know with absolute certainty that God says they are right, so any action is justified. Just like the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and Daesh.
7
While anti-abortion sentiment in the US is stronger than it is in Europe, the actual law in the US is much more permissive than the laws in Europe and India. Much of Europe as well as India allow abortion on demand only for the first trimester. Cuba only for the first ten weeks, but for those ten weeks, the abortion can be performed at government expense.
In the US, abortion is a constitutional right for six months, which inevitably leads to the temptation to "make use" of the developed fetus. Such a fetus can be "harvested". And it is legal as long as it is not done "for profit."
And the Republicans have complicated the situation by making the unrealistic demand that a freshly fertilized ovum should be regarded as a person.
Americans need to find a way to a compromise. Other countries have managed better because they do not have nine people sitting in Washington (or Rome or Paris) making decisions for all the citizens - nine people who are immune from elections and whose decisions are irreversible.
No other major country has this strange situation, and those liberals who hate Citizens United (as I also do) will understand that giving these nine people so much power is crazy. What on earth is the point of replacing ONE George III by nine?
Let liberals and conservatives arrive at a compromise and let both urge the Supreme Court to accept it.
"Conservatives will not compromise." Well, not while you are busy abusing them. Try being nice.
In the US, abortion is a constitutional right for six months, which inevitably leads to the temptation to "make use" of the developed fetus. Such a fetus can be "harvested". And it is legal as long as it is not done "for profit."
And the Republicans have complicated the situation by making the unrealistic demand that a freshly fertilized ovum should be regarded as a person.
Americans need to find a way to a compromise. Other countries have managed better because they do not have nine people sitting in Washington (or Rome or Paris) making decisions for all the citizens - nine people who are immune from elections and whose decisions are irreversible.
No other major country has this strange situation, and those liberals who hate Citizens United (as I also do) will understand that giving these nine people so much power is crazy. What on earth is the point of replacing ONE George III by nine?
Let liberals and conservatives arrive at a compromise and let both urge the Supreme Court to accept it.
"Conservatives will not compromise." Well, not while you are busy abusing them. Try being nice.
14
For one thing, it's not an issue in Europe because there is no partial birth abortion allowed there. Only the US tolerates what Sen. Moynihan rightly called "infanticide". The US allows abortions way beyond the point that Europeans allow.
4
If I really believed that Planned Parenthood was "pushing women into late-term abortions so they can more successfully harvest body parts," as Carly Fiorina claims, I wouldn't be satisfied with merely defunding the organization. Something like that would require, as the author says, "resistance by any means necessary."
So are Republican leaders calling Robert Dear a lunatic because his response was disproportionate to the crimes they claim were committed by PP, or because he was fool enough to believe them?
So are Republican leaders calling Robert Dear a lunatic because his response was disproportionate to the crimes they claim were committed by PP, or because he was fool enough to believe them?
29
He's a lunatic because he attacked innocent people -- not abortion doctors or even patients -- because he's lead a life of violence, crime, possibly rape -- abused women -- has acted strangely and suspiciously and lived in extreme isolation for many years.
Fomenting violence is the antithesis of the life story of Jesus Christ. How a religion based on the peaceful actions of a man many believe to be the son of God could be distorted by those who seek power through deception is a common pattern through history. In fact, Martin Luther's edict, "The Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences" is widely regarded as the initial catalyst for the Protestant Reformation. The disputation protested against the perceived corruption of the Catholic Church at the time especially repugnant clerical abuses including nepotism, simony, usury, pluralism and the outright sale of indulgences. Martin Luther proclaimed that
the fund-raising campaign commissioned by Pope Leo X which began by the practice of the selling of indulgences was anathema to Christian values. He believed that only God could offer salvation and that leaders seeking political power within the Roman Catholic church were distorting the true meaning of Jesus Christ's teachings. Similarly, GOP candidates use Christian values in their speeches to ingratiate themselves with Conservative voters although their speeches run counterclockwise to the true values of Jesus Christ. In the Epistle to the Romans, Protestants diverge with Catholic's interpretation of God's will, although both sects agree that Apostle Paul in his "most important theological legacy" and magnum opus identifies the gospel of Jesus Christ as the most important attribute of true Christianity.
the fund-raising campaign commissioned by Pope Leo X which began by the practice of the selling of indulgences was anathema to Christian values. He believed that only God could offer salvation and that leaders seeking political power within the Roman Catholic church were distorting the true meaning of Jesus Christ's teachings. Similarly, GOP candidates use Christian values in their speeches to ingratiate themselves with Conservative voters although their speeches run counterclockwise to the true values of Jesus Christ. In the Epistle to the Romans, Protestants diverge with Catholic's interpretation of God's will, although both sects agree that Apostle Paul in his "most important theological legacy" and magnum opus identifies the gospel of Jesus Christ as the most important attribute of true Christianity.
12
Instead of writing something insightful on hate speech and its effects, which has a very long history and discussion, the author decided--poorly--to make this a right vs. left fit. The truth is that obscuring the former greatly diminishes the author's fit because they provide no good argument why speech cannot be separated from its upstream effects.
Thus, the entire right vs. left fit this author wishes to indulge is nonsense.
Thus, the entire right vs. left fit this author wishes to indulge is nonsense.
5
The argument doesn't have to made by the author. The stated toll of hate speech on clinics and their patrons stands on it's own, and whatever political camp that speech is coming from, that toll is being paid every day.
41
The problem is that lots of other groups have strong opinions, but our Constitution says that even strong -- even unpleasant and hateful -- opinions are YOUR RIGHT TO EXPRESS.
You can be a Nazi if you want. You can worship Satan, or the Almighty Dollar, if you want. You can attend and support the Westboro Baptist Church if you want.
Plenty of liberal organizations engage in hate speech. Some of the most hateful speech I have ever heard has been in these very letter forums, where so-called "liberals" say incredibly hateful things about NYT conservative columnists, or in 2001-2009, about President Bush or VP Cheney. Yes, I have read posts that said they should be assassinated. I've read anti-semitic remarks that are outrageous, yet tolerated by the liberal media, because they oppose Israel.
There is actually LESS anti-abortion activity, protests etc. than ever. There was a spate of violent acts against clinics and doctors in the 80s, but by the Clinton Administration, the Justice Department had cracked down and there are only a few random acts any more -- and when they occur, as here, they are lone nuts and not representatives of any organized groups.
You can be a Nazi if you want. You can worship Satan, or the Almighty Dollar, if you want. You can attend and support the Westboro Baptist Church if you want.
Plenty of liberal organizations engage in hate speech. Some of the most hateful speech I have ever heard has been in these very letter forums, where so-called "liberals" say incredibly hateful things about NYT conservative columnists, or in 2001-2009, about President Bush or VP Cheney. Yes, I have read posts that said they should be assassinated. I've read anti-semitic remarks that are outrageous, yet tolerated by the liberal media, because they oppose Israel.
There is actually LESS anti-abortion activity, protests etc. than ever. There was a spate of violent acts against clinics and doctors in the 80s, but by the Clinton Administration, the Justice Department had cracked down and there are only a few random acts any more -- and when they occur, as here, they are lone nuts and not representatives of any organized groups.
2
Every Republican (right-wing) I know - friends, family members, acquaintances, and just about everything coming out of the mouths of Republican politicians, pastors, priests, "Christians", Republican constituents, Army of God, Fox News, Family Research Council, Operation Rescue, the NRA and gun advocates are strident, apocalyptic and rigid with regard to abortion, guns, Muslims, immigrants, taxes and rational gun control. Much of it is false and/or misleading.
It is very much a left vs. right thing.
It is very much a left vs. right thing.
6
The bottom line is -- abortion is legal. Why is violence an acceptable act against an organization you disagree with? What has happened to our country and some of our leaders? What has happened to the people who claim to be Christians? Intolerance in now the name of the game. Everyone must agree with them, or else. All I know is we must stand up for all women. Evangelicals want to harm people. Why would anyone want to be a part of that?
67
We don't tolerate violence against abortion clinics. People who attack them are arrested and imprisoned.
There is no much tangible difference between Rush Limbaugh and preachers of Islamic extremism. Same language, same hate, same methods, same results.
174
Thank you for this op ed. Despite a clear pattern of systematic intimidation from the grassroots level all the way up to the GOP elite, few people have shown the chutzpah to state the obvious about what's going on here.
I'm a huge fan of your writings. I believe your ideas are the last best hope for the desperately outflanked reproductive rights movement.
I'm a huge fan of your writings. I believe your ideas are the last best hope for the desperately outflanked reproductive rights movement.
51
I used to feel that there was no excuse for a later term abortion and then my wife got pregnant and at 5 months the ultra sound measurements were taking forever and the images looked odd as the fetus was kind of collapsed on itself much more than normal. They took us aside and said that although the heart was still beating the fetus had stopped growing awhile ago and the pregnancy would not come to term. Arrangements were made for an abortion.
96
First, I am sorry for your loss and your pain.
Your comment exactly reveals the problem, everyone assumes it is cut and dried, until it happens to them. And then the decision is obvious.
The refusal to permit abortions comes down to not trusting women to make sound judgements. We assume that the women must have made a mistake because the decision is hard and unpleasant and how could a women handle such a decision.
Your comment exactly reveals the problem, everyone assumes it is cut and dried, until it happens to them. And then the decision is obvious.
The refusal to permit abortions comes down to not trusting women to make sound judgements. We assume that the women must have made a mistake because the decision is hard and unpleasant and how could a women handle such a decision.
44
I am sorry for your loss. Fortunately you live in Canada where your wife and her physician can decide how best to proceed. Here in the U.S. congress has decided that they should practice medicine so they have outlawed partial birth abortions without realizing that it does nothing to curtail the need for late term abortions. All it does is restrict the methods a physician can use for such an abortion.
3
Ah but you have Canadian healthcare. Here we had to fight to get pregnancy covered. But alas you might have a $3000 deductible -- and no money. Lack of universal healthcare, lack of wanting to teach sex Ed, craziness over Birth control, forces poor or poorer women to these satellite clinics. All of this would end if we rationalized our healthcare -- and services were again private.
5
What exactly is 'violent speech'? Seems any speech, on any subject, that you disagree with will always be considered 'violent'. This is why we are today trying to create 'safe zones' where we don't hear such speech. This article is telling us we need to create a nationwide safe zone where any speech against abortion will not be tolerated. Abortion needs to be in a 'safe zone'. What will this lead to? A nation that does not have free speech on anything.
13
Coolhunter, it is strange but lefty liberalism has "evolved" (or DEvolved) to mean "no free speech" -- unless approved by THEM.
Anything they dislike, anything that upsets them -- should be censored. Anyone they disagree with is a promoting violence or engaging in "hate speech".
The definition of "hate speech" is now so broad it literally includes ANYTHING they disagree with -- if you do not approve of gay marriage (even though you encourage NO violence, nor do you protest, nor do you take any physical action against any gay person), simply your DISAPPROVAL is considered "hate speech" and they ask to ban it -- or seek revenge, by ruining careers.
Then they smugly say, "well free speech doesn't mean there are no repercussions to your speech". Well, actually that is precisely what free speech DOES mean -- that you can speak freely, without repercussions. If you are put in the stockade on the public green, and pelted with tomatoes for speaking out -- your speech isn't really very free -- is it?
Anything they dislike, anything that upsets them -- should be censored. Anyone they disagree with is a promoting violence or engaging in "hate speech".
The definition of "hate speech" is now so broad it literally includes ANYTHING they disagree with -- if you do not approve of gay marriage (even though you encourage NO violence, nor do you protest, nor do you take any physical action against any gay person), simply your DISAPPROVAL is considered "hate speech" and they ask to ban it -- or seek revenge, by ruining careers.
Then they smugly say, "well free speech doesn't mean there are no repercussions to your speech". Well, actually that is precisely what free speech DOES mean -- that you can speak freely, without repercussions. If you are put in the stockade on the public green, and pelted with tomatoes for speaking out -- your speech isn't really very free -- is it?
2
Actually, Coolhunter, despite your attempt to lump "violent speech" with any other "free speech," I think MOST people can tell the difference.
16
What, exactly, is yelling fire in a crowded room?
What, exactly, is drawing associations between a political opponent and Nazis, murderers, thugs, evil conspirators….. along with using the language of armed warfare when talking of ways to engage that political opponent?
What, exactly, is the result of a media climate in a constant state of melodramatic crisis (besides added revenue from advertisers and idealogical supporters)?
What, exactly, is the result of using the buzzword "safe zone" for speech when the words never appear in this article?
Although the words "safe room" do appear in this article. And it's a real tragedy that such rooms are needed in a medical facility.
What, exactly, is drawing associations between a political opponent and Nazis, murderers, thugs, evil conspirators….. along with using the language of armed warfare when talking of ways to engage that political opponent?
What, exactly, is the result of a media climate in a constant state of melodramatic crisis (besides added revenue from advertisers and idealogical supporters)?
What, exactly, is the result of using the buzzword "safe zone" for speech when the words never appear in this article?
Although the words "safe room" do appear in this article. And it's a real tragedy that such rooms are needed in a medical facility.
6
Is this kind of extremism caused by the same black-and-white thinking that caused the attacks in Paris? Because this kind of thinking seems to be associated with extreme religiosity, a desire to control the sexuality of others, and an extreme kind of tribal identity, with the subject's religion as the 'in' group and everyone else as the 'outs'.
41
Thank you Ms. Pollitt for your usual succinct and powerful prose!
And you're so right.
The violent tone - implied and explicit - from the pro-forced birth movement (baby killers, dead babies, murderers, "execution of abortion providers", outright threats), their vile, disturbing actions (arsons, bombings, executions, inciting mayhem, spitting and screaming in women's faces at clinics and calling them murderers and baby killers, dolls splattered with red paint, etc.), and the falsehoods they spread (abortion makes women sterile, and gives women breast cancer and life-long depression, etc.) is horribly, deeply disturbing and an oversized gigantic, bile-spewing propaganda machine.
That people embrace this language and these lunatic actions - especially our elected officials who are supposed to be rational and adult-like - is simply unbelievable.
And you're so right.
The violent tone - implied and explicit - from the pro-forced birth movement (baby killers, dead babies, murderers, "execution of abortion providers", outright threats), their vile, disturbing actions (arsons, bombings, executions, inciting mayhem, spitting and screaming in women's faces at clinics and calling them murderers and baby killers, dolls splattered with red paint, etc.), and the falsehoods they spread (abortion makes women sterile, and gives women breast cancer and life-long depression, etc.) is horribly, deeply disturbing and an oversized gigantic, bile-spewing propaganda machine.
That people embrace this language and these lunatic actions - especially our elected officials who are supposed to be rational and adult-like - is simply unbelievable.
61
I saw a video of Ben Carson discussing abortion, speaking in his usual soft tone, saying very vile things against women, stating that women murder their babies. So while Carli Fiorini looks like a crazy woman ranting, Ben Carson is equally against women but get a pass because of his tone. These people scare me.
5
It's a political wedge issue like guns and god and gays. No issue is ever resolved in this country, no law ever settled - we're still debating evolution. God - or someone - save us from the people that are so good, so pure, and so right that they are capable of terrible evil.
59
Hmmmm.
Religion based calls for violence. Responses from the susceptible. Deafening lack of public condemnation.
Sound familiar?
Religion based calls for violence. Responses from the susceptible. Deafening lack of public condemnation.
Sound familiar?
63
This is all too familiar and frankly it scares me. I believe the lack of response is the result of our very poor educational system. Children in Germany can tell you the entire history of not only their country, but their town. Children in our country are not only deprived of learning our history and how our government works, the public school books are edited by Texas.
Our country is at the tipping point of becoming Germany in the 1930s unless the Republicans can replace the extremists candidates that are running for public office of any kind. Yes, indeed, it is a very familiar scenario to me.
Our country is at the tipping point of becoming Germany in the 1930s unless the Republicans can replace the extremists candidates that are running for public office of any kind. Yes, indeed, it is a very familiar scenario to me.
1
The "deafening lack of public condemnation" is because Mr. Dear was a crazy loner -- an isolated, probably mentally ill man living off the grid in shack.
He was not a member of any Church, and though nominally a Christian, he did not adhere to any faith or ideology.
Religious delusions are very common with some mental illnesses, and I am surprise how few posters here seem aware of this -- or are letting political hysteria ("he's a terrorist!") overcome their intelligence and awareness of mental health issues.
He was not a member of any Church, and though nominally a Christian, he did not adhere to any faith or ideology.
Religious delusions are very common with some mental illnesses, and I am surprise how few posters here seem aware of this -- or are letting political hysteria ("he's a terrorist!") overcome their intelligence and awareness of mental health issues.
I have been a clinic escort for over ten years. During that time, one of the two clinics I regularly escort at has had someone self-immolate in front of it, as well as faced a (thankfully FBI-interdicted) plot to bomb it and then shoot patients and the doctor. This isn't taking into account the numerous vandalizations, threats, or the fact that the clinic *was* actually bombed in the 1980s.
The protesters outside of the clinics have become emboldened since the murder of Dr. Tiller in 2009 - and even more so since this summer's doctored Planned Parenthood videos. These people stand outside of the clinic every weekend and scream at women that "they are committing black genocide in there!" "you will never have children if you have an abortion!" They yell the more honest things at the women's companions: "Don't let your woman do this!" "Be a man, stand up to her, don't let her kill your child!" THAT is what they really mean - MEN should be in control of women's reproductive decisions...Men like Robert Dear, who believe that the proper role of women is to be abused, raped, controlled, and ultimately, killed by their guns if they step outside of those boundaries. THAT is what those who oppose abortion rights want to take us back to and it is nothing short of what is at stake in the 2016 elections.
The protesters outside of the clinics have become emboldened since the murder of Dr. Tiller in 2009 - and even more so since this summer's doctored Planned Parenthood videos. These people stand outside of the clinic every weekend and scream at women that "they are committing black genocide in there!" "you will never have children if you have an abortion!" They yell the more honest things at the women's companions: "Don't let your woman do this!" "Be a man, stand up to her, don't let her kill your child!" THAT is what they really mean - MEN should be in control of women's reproductive decisions...Men like Robert Dear, who believe that the proper role of women is to be abused, raped, controlled, and ultimately, killed by their guns if they step outside of those boundaries. THAT is what those who oppose abortion rights want to take us back to and it is nothing short of what is at stake in the 2016 elections.
250
I've experienced the hatred of those sidewalk screamers. Even when you just walk into the building, no matter why you are there.
And those 3 dead people? The arson cases? Hate crimes. Terrorism.
And we don't negotiate with terrorists.
America needs to remember that appeasement is out of the question. Those who incite and commit violence need to feel the full force of United States law.
Maybe we should re-appropriate that phrase "Don't Tread on Me" and put it up good use for once!
And those 3 dead people? The arson cases? Hate crimes. Terrorism.
And we don't negotiate with terrorists.
America needs to remember that appeasement is out of the question. Those who incite and commit violence need to feel the full force of United States law.
Maybe we should re-appropriate that phrase "Don't Tread on Me" and put it up good use for once!
51
Ms. Pollitt's analysis here treats the truth as an afterthought. To her view, and that of other pro-abortion ideologues, it really does not matter whether and when a fetus comes to life. All that matters is what is socially acceptable. Consensus overrules reality.
If many of the fetuses being destroyed really are alive, then in fact the death toll in the clinics is much higher than that caused by any irate, gun-slinging loner. But it is all performed under the auspices of socially reputable people with good names and clean records.
If the fetuses really are alive, then it is reality that is inflammatory, not rhetoric. The burden of proof is on those advocating abortions, to demonstrate via objective evidence and sound medical reasoning that all of the involved fetuses are not yet alive.
If many of the fetuses being destroyed really are alive, then in fact the death toll in the clinics is much higher than that caused by any irate, gun-slinging loner. But it is all performed under the auspices of socially reputable people with good names and clean records.
If the fetuses really are alive, then it is reality that is inflammatory, not rhetoric. The burden of proof is on those advocating abortions, to demonstrate via objective evidence and sound medical reasoning that all of the involved fetuses are not yet alive.
5
Nope. First of all the argument of the pro-lifers is that no circumstance justifies taking a life. Thus, no circumstance justifies taking a life. They can not then become terrorists to "save" lives because then they say circumstances do justify it.
Second, while this is not the place to make this extended argument, and Ms. Pollit and others have made it before, the right to bodily integrity means that you do not have to keep another alive (via your body) without your consent. In both our laws, and every religion I know of, this is a fairly strict moral standard. So strict, even the dead get to keep their body parts, though they would save many people in donating them. So strict blood donation can not be forced.
Second, while this is not the place to make this extended argument, and Ms. Pollit and others have made it before, the right to bodily integrity means that you do not have to keep another alive (via your body) without your consent. In both our laws, and every religion I know of, this is a fairly strict moral standard. So strict, even the dead get to keep their body parts, though they would save many people in donating them. So strict blood donation can not be forced.
39
Saying that every abortion protester -- or every American who opposes abortion on demand, even if they NEVER protest outside a clinic, ever -- is a "terrorist" is the same exactly as saying "every Muslim is a terrorist (or a terrorist sympathizer)".
When it is anti-Muslim, liberals see clearly that it is bigotry and projection, and false. When it is THEIR OWN FELLOW AMERICAN CITIZENS, however, they are driven by already existing hatred of conservatives, or believing Christian groups -- considering them "low class, low information red neck hillbillies". Those are not MY words. Those are names I see flung at conservative Americans by other more liberal Americans, in these forums, on a daily basis.
When it is anti-Muslim, liberals see clearly that it is bigotry and projection, and false. When it is THEIR OWN FELLOW AMERICAN CITIZENS, however, they are driven by already existing hatred of conservatives, or believing Christian groups -- considering them "low class, low information red neck hillbillies". Those are not MY words. Those are names I see flung at conservative Americans by other more liberal Americans, in these forums, on a daily basis.
2
Any thoughts for the mother?
7
This writing is pure red herring. A piece of opportunistic demagoguery which attempts to tie actions of a deranged man to a legitimate moral disagreement between large groups of citizens. People like him can be triggered by any passionate public discourse. Why not blame Ferguson riots on Mr. Obama's calls for racial equality? Certain despicable acts should be outside of the bounds of ideological arguments. We shouldn't look to score divisive points at any cost.
10
OK, by that logic the Boston bombers were also just a lone, troubled extremists and not a terrorist.
33
Passionate public discourse is very different from threats of violence, incitement, and hate speech, all of which are practiced by the so-called pro life movement.
8
"Why not blame Ferguson riots on Mr. Obama's calls for racial equality?"
Because it wouldn't be the truth.
Because it wouldn't be the truth.
5
Anti-abortion extremists are promoting violence without punishment. Where are the women who stand up for their right to have control over their own bodies? Why are they not demonstrating by the hundreds of thousands? I marched for the right to safe, legal abortion in the 60s. I know, personally, of women who had illegal abortions and suffered greatly because of complications. All we asked for was the right to a legal procedure, instead of the illegal ones we were left with. I celebrated Roe v. Wade. My son was born on that date years later and I still celebrate that day, now for two reasons. If abortions become illegal again women will just have illegal ones if they can't afford to travel to a destination where legal abortions are available. They used to and they will again. Because, make no mistake about it, if a woman needs an abortion, she will obtain one. Any way possible. And those angry, angry men, who foam at the mouth at the thought of a woman having control over her own body, will just have to put up with it. We are no longer owned by our men, not now, and not ever again. Those days are over for good.
77
The difference is that 50 years ago, a woman who got pregnant while unmarried was a scandal -- she was an object of derision, rejected by her family and her religion. Unwed motherhood was something genuinely feared and considered awful.
Today, unwed motherhood is the norm (for which we can thank lefty liberals). There is zero shame. Unwed motherhood rates are just as high in red states, and just as high among the middle and working class as among the poor. It is totally accepted -- by everyone.
Ergo, there is no shame whatsoever. No stigma. No hit to someone's career. No being expelled from high school, or denied admission to college.
Indeed, we give unwed mothers vast social support & welfare benefits, that exceed what most poor women could EVER earn at a paying job.
So the same woman who might have been wiling to risk DEATH to avoid a shameful pregnancy in 1962, would NOT have the same motivating factor today in 2015.
That does not even include consideration of private methods such as RU286, which can be obtained on the internet at a low cost, or the fact that newborn infants are a prized commodity today.
In 1962, Life Magazine ran a COVER ISSUE about all the babies (most of them white) in orphanages. By the 1980s, adoptable infants were rare. Today there are so many couples eager to adopt, that no infant would ever go to an orphanage or face unwanted status.
So things have changed, just as the medical science that lets 23 week old fetuses survive outside the womb.
Today, unwed motherhood is the norm (for which we can thank lefty liberals). There is zero shame. Unwed motherhood rates are just as high in red states, and just as high among the middle and working class as among the poor. It is totally accepted -- by everyone.
Ergo, there is no shame whatsoever. No stigma. No hit to someone's career. No being expelled from high school, or denied admission to college.
Indeed, we give unwed mothers vast social support & welfare benefits, that exceed what most poor women could EVER earn at a paying job.
So the same woman who might have been wiling to risk DEATH to avoid a shameful pregnancy in 1962, would NOT have the same motivating factor today in 2015.
That does not even include consideration of private methods such as RU286, which can be obtained on the internet at a low cost, or the fact that newborn infants are a prized commodity today.
In 1962, Life Magazine ran a COVER ISSUE about all the babies (most of them white) in orphanages. By the 1980s, adoptable infants were rare. Today there are so many couples eager to adopt, that no infant would ever go to an orphanage or face unwanted status.
So things have changed, just as the medical science that lets 23 week old fetuses survive outside the womb.
And what is the responsibility of the New York Times, which has consistently refused to talk about the merit of numerous videos showing Planned Parenthood's trafficking in body parts and abortions for teenagers disguised as "incest?" I am not defending the Colorado nut, but Kathy Pollitt is hardly the person to talk about "moderation in rhetoric."
11
Those videos have been shown to be false repeatedly. Repeatedly. By states which wanted the other outcome.
50
The NY Times - many times - has indeed talked about the heavily edited PP videos. Do a search.
13
Obviously your own thoughts show no sign of responsibility,
5
Thank you, thank you Ms Pollitt for the excellent article on abortion. I salute every individual who courageously stands behind a woman's right to choose.
The medical staff, the volunteers, the reporters, the politicians who fight for choice, and the women who need access to abortion services have all become warriors in a fight over self determination and the constitutional rights of woman.
The medical staff, the volunteers, the reporters, the politicians who fight for choice, and the women who need access to abortion services have all become warriors in a fight over self determination and the constitutional rights of woman.
52
The very fact the clinic in Colorado had bulletproof glass should tell us something. I was harassed, back in the late 70's and 80's, just trying to enter a PP here for my birth control prescription and Pap tests. One woman chased with an umbrella in the rain. In what other first world country would this be considered the cost of providing medical care? Our arguments about guns and abortion have become insane. This is no way to live.
176
@Maryellen Simcoe: There was a notorious case in Denver years ago. A young couple with no health insurance sought prenatal care at a Planned Parenthood health center. The sidewalk "counselors" jostled the woman, screaming in her face, "Don't kill your baby!" Extremely upset, she suffered a miscarriage shortly after arriving at the clinic.
These people don't care about "life," not really. They just want an outlet to express their rage and hostility while feeling holier-than-thou and self-righteous.
These people don't care about "life," not really. They just want an outlet to express their rage and hostility while feeling holier-than-thou and self-righteous.
4
Thank you for this opinion. And in particular, thank you for this:
"...Law enforcement and the news media have been reluctant to call this continuing violence by its rightful name: terrorism..."
"...Law enforcement and the news media have been reluctant to call this continuing violence by its rightful name: terrorism..."
76
I'm waiting for the NRA to propose the arming of all fetuses. After all, none of this would have happened, etc...
151
The saddest part, Stu, is that this has actually been proposed. Rep. Steve Stockman said, "If babies were armed, they wouldn't keep getting aborted." I do not believe he meant to be facetious.
9
@stu: what if a few people in the PP office had been armed when the shooter entered? Don't you think some lives could have been saved?
It's a vulgar joke, Stu.
In truth, there is no protection from those who take the lives of living unborn fetuses. They are helpless, which is why pro-lifers act so vehemently to protect them. Their lives are worth saving, they believe.
In truth, there is no protection from those who take the lives of living unborn fetuses. They are helpless, which is why pro-lifers act so vehemently to protect them. Their lives are worth saving, they believe.
3
It's remarkable that those who engage in some of the most violent rhetoric against Planned Parenthood can, with a straight face, deny any responsibility for their words (and videos) inspiring individuals to take violent actions.
Next time one of these characters appears on a Sunday show like Meet the Press and tells viewers that words don't influence people, I would love Chuck Todd or whoever to respond something like this:
Sir (Madam), the program that you are on now is supported by advertising dollars. Clients of the advertising industry as a whole spend tens of billions of dollars each year to get their messages out. If words (and images) don't influence people's behavior, why do you suppose they spend this money?
Sir (Madam), you and other candidates for President, and your superpacs, will together be spending over $1billion trying to get elected. If you don't think words influence people's actions, why do you do this?
Sir (Madam), if you don't think words matter, why are you doing this interview?
Next time one of these characters appears on a Sunday show like Meet the Press and tells viewers that words don't influence people, I would love Chuck Todd or whoever to respond something like this:
Sir (Madam), the program that you are on now is supported by advertising dollars. Clients of the advertising industry as a whole spend tens of billions of dollars each year to get their messages out. If words (and images) don't influence people's behavior, why do you suppose they spend this money?
Sir (Madam), you and other candidates for President, and your superpacs, will together be spending over $1billion trying to get elected. If you don't think words influence people's actions, why do you do this?
Sir (Madam), if you don't think words matter, why are you doing this interview?
447
Great example, and I'd add another: If rhetoric doesn't affect individuals' actions, why do conservatives spend millions of dollars trying to win elections to school boards so they can rewrite the textbooks and change the curriculum?
15
The massacre of Charlie Hebo makes your point exactly. Strong opinions that may be construed as sound convictions at one time (or in one place) are hate speech in another. Relativity is everything here. Only the narrow dogmatist is ignorant of it. What is heresy today, becomes dogma tomorrow, depending on the Zeitgeist. We must remember that German camps were legal before they were not, and that today's "emergency" law in France would have been "tyranny" several months ago. Bad speech like bad ideas are best left exposed and not forced underground where they ferment in isolation and become truly dangerous.
6
Brilliant. It occurred to me that the ONLY response that might be effective is economic - think Rosa Parks and the bus boycott. We need to boycott sponsors of everyone who is spewing this hateful rhetoric. BOYCOTT!!!
8
I have never been able to understand why harassing clients of a medical facility that provides abortions among other services is not a felony. If our legal situation were normal, that would be considered threats and punishable.
601
It's clearly protected political speech, much like harassing workers entering a nuclear plant is protected political speech, as long as no physical violence is committed. You can't just support the ability to protest when the protesters agree with you; people yelling at those they disagree with is part of living in a free country.
5
"I have never been able to understand why harassing clients of a medical facility that provides abortions among other services is not a felony."
If the clinic provided medical procedures other than abortions would harassing clients also be a felony? Harassment is a felony? Forget about lowering the rates of so-called mass incarceration.
If the clinic provided medical procedures other than abortions would harassing clients also be a felony? Harassment is a felony? Forget about lowering the rates of so-called mass incarceration.
2
Theres a Pulitzer Prize waiting for the reporter or team who can compile stories of clinic escorts, and men and women who have been harassed and threatened at multiple PP locations, and make this daily terrorism recognized and not ignored anymore.
4
The reality is that inflammatory rhetoric often prompts the mentally unstable to believe that their internalized antisocial impulses are rational - and therefore worthy of acting out.
Whereas the mentally stable person is equipped to interpret this rhetoric as metaphoric or hyperbolic, the unstable person is not. IMHO, routinely exposing mentally unstable Americans, many of whom have yet to be diagnosed, much less treated, to persistent inflammatory rhetoric is tantamount to encouraging them to pull the trigger.
Whereas the mentally stable person is equipped to interpret this rhetoric as metaphoric or hyperbolic, the unstable person is not. IMHO, routinely exposing mentally unstable Americans, many of whom have yet to be diagnosed, much less treated, to persistent inflammatory rhetoric is tantamount to encouraging them to pull the trigger.
330
The sensationalism that surrounded the last crazy killer's behavior is more damaging than "rhetoric." People, including the president, who politicize these murders for political gain, should learn to keep quiet.
6
Matthew Carnicelli,
While it's true that most of the people who have attacked women's health clinics and doctors have been mentally unstable, perfectly normal people whom have been denied proper education can also find the voice of authority appealing even commanding. That might make them seem unstable when in fact it is just all they have ever known.
We use a lot of Spartan rhetoric and practices in American society these days. The words of someone like Huckabee or Limbaugh would actually seem normal to someone lacking in education and example otherwise.
While it's true that most of the people who have attacked women's health clinics and doctors have been mentally unstable, perfectly normal people whom have been denied proper education can also find the voice of authority appealing even commanding. That might make them seem unstable when in fact it is just all they have ever known.
We use a lot of Spartan rhetoric and practices in American society these days. The words of someone like Huckabee or Limbaugh would actually seem normal to someone lacking in education and example otherwise.
6
"People, including the president, who politicize these murders for political gain"
Isn't there a commandment about bearing false witness? I believe it's one of the Top Ten!
Isn't there a commandment about bearing false witness? I believe it's one of the Top Ten!
1
Of course the Fiorinas and the Huckabees of the world deny that their rhetoric has anything to do with inciting violence. They have to deny. Otherwise there's blood on their hands. They leave that for the "crazies," who of course aren't real christians like they are. And of course they defend the NRA, too. What's a little collateral damage to the righteous?
529
These people re not real Christians….just how does their behavior qualify them to call themselves Christians?
Sandra - They self identify as christian, and claim forgiveness for their sins. (Isn't it great!) If you want to go by behavior then there are all kinds of people who sit in church on Sunday that don't qualify and a lot of people who don't believe that do qualify.
Gotta love how so many of y'all simply dismiss your extremists as 'not real christians.' They may be extremists, but they are christians.
Gotta love how so many of y'all simply dismiss your extremists as 'not real christians.' They may be extremists, but they are christians.
5
Here's another dirty secret the anti-choice people don't want you to know. They want to deny to other people the right to choose but if they, or their daughters get pregnant and it's not convenient for them, they make up all kinds of excuses why their cases are different. I first heard this during a sociology class where one of the speakers was a doctor who ran a clinic. He said that people who stood outside and protested would call him and beg him to give them abortions late at night, when his clinic was closed and the protesters were home.
So was it just that one doctor? In yesterday's Guardian there was an article by a woman who works as an escort at a clinic. The protesters come in on a regular basis to have abortions, sometimes going to a clinic across town and showing up to protest at their regular clinic afterwards. And they always have excuses as to why it was okay for them but not for anyone else.
Does talk matter? Of course it does. But the protesters say one thing and do another.
So was it just that one doctor? In yesterday's Guardian there was an article by a woman who works as an escort at a clinic. The protesters come in on a regular basis to have abortions, sometimes going to a clinic across town and showing up to protest at their regular clinic afterwards. And they always have excuses as to why it was okay for them but not for anyone else.
Does talk matter? Of course it does. But the protesters say one thing and do another.
706
I don't believe that. Most of the people opposed to abortion are sincere in their beliefs and try to live those beliefs. They are just misguided. Many of them genuinely deplore the use of violence and peacefully protest.
The problem is not with those people. Its with the folks who have politicized the issue in order to elect their favorite candidates. They resort to whatever rhetoric they think will motivate their supporters and get them to the polls. They don't really care whether some are motivated to acts of violence. Huckabee's comment is a classic case in point.
The truth is that the way to prevent abortions, if that is your goal, is to prevent unwanted pregnancies. By that measure, Planned Parenthood prevents more abortions every day than the opponents of safe, legal abortion have in the entire history of their movement.
The problem is not with those people. Its with the folks who have politicized the issue in order to elect their favorite candidates. They resort to whatever rhetoric they think will motivate their supporters and get them to the polls. They don't really care whether some are motivated to acts of violence. Huckabee's comment is a classic case in point.
The truth is that the way to prevent abortions, if that is your goal, is to prevent unwanted pregnancies. By that measure, Planned Parenthood prevents more abortions every day than the opponents of safe, legal abortion have in the entire history of their movement.
206
Linda - you're so right! Providers and clinic workers say that protesters - actually, they're really screamers and harassers - bring in their daughters or themselves, and say things like "it's a special circumstance".
Soon after, they return to screaming in women's faces.
Soon after, they return to screaming in women's faces.
45
Linda, good for you for pointing this out. I worked at Planned Parenthood for 12 years. I counseled thousands of women having abortions. Regularly, if not frequently, we had women coming to the clinic who were pro-life protestors, some of whom had even protested outside our doors. We were obligated to treat those women with the same care, compassion and confidentiality that we did with all patients--although that sometimes felt difficult to do. Even so-called abortion opponents, when they or their loved ones want or need an abortion, have no compunctions about getting one, quietly. Very depressing. If it's anything I despise with a passion, it's hypocrisy.
77