need more elaboration on "s-files" than that of an attorney representing Muslims. And of course Muslims are being targeted. It was Muslim extremists who carried out the atrocities against 130 victims. i think the Buddists are not worth the bother right now. Tell the relatives of the dead that "Daesh's attacks are really a trap". What do you mean? How would you feel if a rifle was aimed at your head? Some trap!
5
Some Western commenters believe we have the choice of losing a few hundred innocent Westerers to Islamists every once in a while but still maintaining our life and culture. Look again- The demographics are inexorable. Cheer up- the worst is yet to come (Mark Twain)- Mr. Cassandra wishes you French and Belgians the best.
2
It is like there can be no peace without war and there can be no war without peace. History will tell you this. Security and freedom are like the two sides of a coin. Security is the foundation on which peace and freedom stand. It is not the opposite way. For every benefit these is an associated burden. This is the price for peace. I 100% support the state of emergency. This is a lesson for all. It is stupid to be unprepared only to be prepared when it happens. For long the French has taken freedom and liberty for granted. This is the price to be paid for it. The defeat of Hitler brought peace but it came at a high cost. When shall we learn our lessons or learn from history?
2
Personally I don't want a police state in order to assure security. I'll accept a less than 1% chance of dying in an Islamic terrorist attack any day, in exchange for liberty. Government megalomaniacs pose a far bigger risk than Islamists do.
1
Chance of dying maybe small, but likelihood of subjugation by an Islamic terror regime will be 100%.
I rather fight for our freedom now and clean the slate of the Islamists while we still can with compartively little effort.
I rather fight for our freedom now and clean the slate of the Islamists while we still can with compartively little effort.
10
France and Belgium are doing what should have done long ago.
Saudi Arabia and Iran for instance are Theocracies - "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.” These countries are extremely oppressive and the human rights records are among the worst in the world. How many times have we hear Allahu Akbar - God is Great from these terrorists? There is no fear, it's suicide.
We in the west live in a totally different way of life. We can believe in any religion, drink, have sex outside of marriage, women can vote, drive cars and we can dress in any fashion we want, listen to any music, criticize elected officials and government policy etc.
In Saudi Arabia (the home of Islam), it's illegal to show Christmas ornaments or anything that is not Islamic, not even Valentines Day can be celebrated because it's not Islamic. The point is our societies and values are not just different, they are worlds apart.
How many terrorists including Jihadi John have come from the Muslim neighborhoods in London, Paris and Belgium? Look at 9/11, they learned how to fly planes in the US pretending to be normal citizens.
So these arguments about using rational conversation, political correctness are nothing. Here's a metaphor: If I'm surfing and a Great White shark attacks me, I can talk to it all day long, but it won't understand me. It has one purpose.
This idea that Freedom is free is an illusion. History will teach us nothing.
Saudi Arabia and Iran for instance are Theocracies - "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.” These countries are extremely oppressive and the human rights records are among the worst in the world. How many times have we hear Allahu Akbar - God is Great from these terrorists? There is no fear, it's suicide.
We in the west live in a totally different way of life. We can believe in any religion, drink, have sex outside of marriage, women can vote, drive cars and we can dress in any fashion we want, listen to any music, criticize elected officials and government policy etc.
In Saudi Arabia (the home of Islam), it's illegal to show Christmas ornaments or anything that is not Islamic, not even Valentines Day can be celebrated because it's not Islamic. The point is our societies and values are not just different, they are worlds apart.
How many terrorists including Jihadi John have come from the Muslim neighborhoods in London, Paris and Belgium? Look at 9/11, they learned how to fly planes in the US pretending to be normal citizens.
So these arguments about using rational conversation, political correctness are nothing. Here's a metaphor: If I'm surfing and a Great White shark attacks me, I can talk to it all day long, but it won't understand me. It has one purpose.
This idea that Freedom is free is an illusion. History will teach us nothing.
11
The West is at a crossroads of individual freedoms vs. human safety. We are facing a new type of asymmetric war fare. It is effective. Just consider how much resources the French have to put towards stopping a few terrorists. Soon the French will understand what Israel has had to put up with for decades. Perhaps then, when the shoe is on their foot, they will not be so "liberal" in espousing the Palestinian causes. But then again, since Israel is a Jewish state, and the French have a long history of Jew Hatred, likely they will not sympathize.
6
After the Paris attacks.. & then shoot-outs with suicide-bomb terrorists which almost brought down the apartment building..-- What choice do they have but to take extreme measures..--- It is the terrorists & extremists who are trying to take away liberties..--The French are attempting to preserve them..
9
This story shows that the French are no less prone to panic and overreaction than we Americans were in the aftermath of the 9-11 attack. I can only hope that for the sake of the soul of the French nation, it will not be governed by officials eager to embrace dark side within all of us, as Dick Cheney and his ilk did. For they turned otherwise decent Americans into assassins, torturers and warrantless snoops.
Sinking to the level of a cruel and heartless enemy may provide some emotional satisfaction to some or even most people. But those who see themselves as leaders within their own nation should possess the ability to respond to primitive and brutal acts of aggression in a thoughtful, measured way. Lashing out in anger against an entire class or group of people because a few of their members commit barbarous acts is a sign of weakness and insecurity. Resorting to assassinations, torture, and snooping on anyone or everyone are the hallmarks of counterproductive and immoral leadership.
Does a nation that has produced people like Voltaire, Rousseau, Camus and the cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo truly wish to be governed by those with the mindset of Dick Cheney? If not, then someone needs to exercise some much-needed restraint on the police and military and make sure basic human rights are respected. But if the French want to go down Cheney's blood-stained path, then all I can say is c'est la vie.
Sinking to the level of a cruel and heartless enemy may provide some emotional satisfaction to some or even most people. But those who see themselves as leaders within their own nation should possess the ability to respond to primitive and brutal acts of aggression in a thoughtful, measured way. Lashing out in anger against an entire class or group of people because a few of their members commit barbarous acts is a sign of weakness and insecurity. Resorting to assassinations, torture, and snooping on anyone or everyone are the hallmarks of counterproductive and immoral leadership.
Does a nation that has produced people like Voltaire, Rousseau, Camus and the cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo truly wish to be governed by those with the mindset of Dick Cheney? If not, then someone needs to exercise some much-needed restraint on the police and military and make sure basic human rights are respected. But if the French want to go down Cheney's blood-stained path, then all I can say is c'est la vie.
2
The situation is completely different. 9/11 was committed by a few outsiders that came into the country to commit their attacks. That route has been effectively closed. France by contrast is already infiltrated by a large number of potential terrorists and more are coming through Europe's open or porous borders. That requires a very different response than in the US after 9/11.
5
I fail to understand the comment comparing the current situation to Vichy France. It seems to me the only point of this article is to undermine the resolve of those trying to fight this scourge. Perhaps the author should compare his own motives with those of Vichy France. Talk about collaborating with the enemy.
7
I'm dismayed by all of the hand-wringing about the loss of individual liberty when France is in a state of emergency, de facto state of war with ISIS. Under those circumstances, it is naive for citizens to expect to be able to live without surveillance and some profiling when the culprits continually turn out to be radicalized Muslims living in the very country that gave them shelter. One can give fine speeches about those who turn in freedom for protection deserve neither - adolescent idealism out of place in the real world, an increasingly dangerous place.
7
The terrorists are following the instruction manuals for revolution that were perfected during the Algerian war. Their polarizing aim is to provoke increased discrimination and repression by the governments in order to force even unwilling citizens of their creed to take sides.
Lucio
Lucio
2
It is astonishing that so many commenters here think the solution to terrorism is to send in an army of juiced thug-cops (like the ones here who feel it is ok to kill a black man holding a BB gun in a Walmart), in their very manly military gear, to indiscriminately smash doors and crack heads. That is because after 9/11, our thug-president tried a similar approach on an entire country, which directly led to the formation of ISIL, and therefore the current horror.
Osama Bin Laden may be dead, but he won. He was counting on the U.S. overreacting and doing something stupid which would inflame the Arab world. And guess what happened. Our ignorant president, with the wisdom of a sixth-grader in the playground, was eager to fall into that trap, with the enthusiastic support of the press, politicians, and I'm sure many here.
So yeah, let's again overreact and behave with the wisdom of children and see what it gets us THIS TIME. That will be EXACTLY WHAT ISIL WANTS.
And for those of you who advocate getting tough on Muslims because an infinitesimal fraction are terrorists, let's be honest. You are advocating collective punishment, one of the most vile cruelties during war or any other time.
I'm old enough to remember when the United States had the highest standard of education, and Americans were also best informed. Pathetically, we are at a point now when many of us are ignorant, other in the usual jingoistic terms, of even recent history (the past 14 years).
Osama Bin Laden may be dead, but he won. He was counting on the U.S. overreacting and doing something stupid which would inflame the Arab world. And guess what happened. Our ignorant president, with the wisdom of a sixth-grader in the playground, was eager to fall into that trap, with the enthusiastic support of the press, politicians, and I'm sure many here.
So yeah, let's again overreact and behave with the wisdom of children and see what it gets us THIS TIME. That will be EXACTLY WHAT ISIL WANTS.
And for those of you who advocate getting tough on Muslims because an infinitesimal fraction are terrorists, let's be honest. You are advocating collective punishment, one of the most vile cruelties during war or any other time.
I'm old enough to remember when the United States had the highest standard of education, and Americans were also best informed. Pathetically, we are at a point now when many of us are ignorant, other in the usual jingoistic terms, of even recent history (the past 14 years).
3
I fail to understand the comment comparing the current situation to Vichy France. It seems to me the only point of this article is to undermine the resolve of those trying to fight this scourge. Perhaps the author should compare his own motives with those of Vichy France. Talk about collaborating with the enemy.
2
This is a clear overcompensation for embarrassment of police and security forces with little readiness or responses to the Paris attacks--but such extremely extrajudicial searches are an invitation to the violation of human rights. The invocation of "total war" and "mercilessness" by Hollande was an eery echo of George W. Bush's in calling to mobilize "all security forces to neutralize the terrorists." This policy has given rise to already deeply divided popular opinion about accepting refugees in France and in Europe, for that matter, and a broad inability to conceive of their experience--leading many to wrap themselves in nationalism in response, lending legitimacy to open xenophobia (see http://wp.me/p36T6t-4en)--that, much as the closing of France's borders, is a victory of fear and suspicion rather than a measured response.
1
Yes, freedoms are being curtailed under the present rules and, in a democracy, this is a concern. BUT, infringements of liberty must be set against the threats to life. These restrictions are temporary (they had better be!) and in the meantime the authorities may arrest and be able to convict some of those suspects in the S files.
The UK went through similar temporary restrictions which were lifted after a period. Until the west, and hopefully Middle Eastern, countries get their act together and destroy IS and other radical terrorist groups, these situations will continue to occur.
The UK went through similar temporary restrictions which were lifted after a period. Until the west, and hopefully Middle Eastern, countries get their act together and destroy IS and other radical terrorist groups, these situations will continue to occur.
2
Maybe these 'offended parties', i.e., Muslims, ought to consider focusing their anger on the radicals who have hijacked their common religion into their own twisted vision that rationalizes hate in murder in its name. It is the murderous radicals in their ranks that have brought this oppression upon them, not un-incited actions of the police.
If they truly want peace and justice, try helping by working with police and intelligence services in identifying those in their community who advocate radical behavior, and stop complaining. That's the price of freedom.
If they truly want peace and justice, try helping by working with police and intelligence services in identifying those in their community who advocate radical behavior, and stop complaining. That's the price of freedom.
38
Never works that way. If you feel yourself a member of an oppressed minority you don't turn on your fellows even if you reject their tactics. That was true of American Irish and the IRA and American Jewes regarding Israel. Why hold Muslims to some superhuman standard?
2
They also ought to focus their attention on why Islam is so easily "twisted" into a violent ideology, relative to other religions. It's totally non-PC to say it, but it's true.
6
' "When this takes place outside the judicial framework, there can be abuses," said Ms. Jeannerod of Human Rights Watch. "You are putting it all in the hands of the interior minister—very dangerous," she said. Using an Arabic acronym for the Islamic State, she warned: "This excess threatens public liberties. Daesh’s attacks are really a trap." '
Is anybody really so naive and stupid to think that it is a conscious subsidiary goal of Daesh to increase the powers of the French government so that civilian liberties are lost? No. Daesh does not win in any way if civilian liberties are lost; for many of its members are civilians themselves who would, with more freedom, go on to create even more bloodshed. Daesh is a deadly viral mutation of the less deadly but still annoying virus of Islam. If the French government is going to stamp out Daesh from its country, then it will need to increase its monitoring of all Muslims in its country in order to watch for deadly mutations of their Islam, unfortunately.
Is anybody really so naive and stupid to think that it is a conscious subsidiary goal of Daesh to increase the powers of the French government so that civilian liberties are lost? No. Daesh does not win in any way if civilian liberties are lost; for many of its members are civilians themselves who would, with more freedom, go on to create even more bloodshed. Daesh is a deadly viral mutation of the less deadly but still annoying virus of Islam. If the French government is going to stamp out Daesh from its country, then it will need to increase its monitoring of all Muslims in its country in order to watch for deadly mutations of their Islam, unfortunately.
4
Hmmm... Reading all these anti-Muslim comments reminds me of the people who supported GWB in his phony reasons for going into Iraq. It was this disaster that stirred up anti-US anger, leading to the creation of ISIS and causing otherwise complacent people in the region to join them and other terrorist groups. These groups aim to start a religious war and France and other nations are playing right into their hands. The response to people who feel marginalized and angry at your government? Just create MORE anger and marginalization. Smart move, huh?
As long as these terrorists kept killing Muslims, much more than non- Muslims, no one cared. When the KKK was at its height in the US, raining terror on blacks in the South, there were no white churches invaded by troops, although the KKK were all Christians who felt that they were doing God's work. None of their businesses were invaded or white people placed under house arrest.
A group of people only suffer from the actions of a few only if they are non-white or not a member of the majority. And so it happened with Native Americans, blacks, Japanese, etc. Logic will tell a reasonable person that these terrorists are NOT Islamic in their actions and do not follow the tenets of their religion. There have been murderous Christian groups in the US but no one blamed all Christians for their behaviors.
It's always easier and more satisfying to point fingers away from ourselves.
As long as these terrorists kept killing Muslims, much more than non- Muslims, no one cared. When the KKK was at its height in the US, raining terror on blacks in the South, there were no white churches invaded by troops, although the KKK were all Christians who felt that they were doing God's work. None of their businesses were invaded or white people placed under house arrest.
A group of people only suffer from the actions of a few only if they are non-white or not a member of the majority. And so it happened with Native Americans, blacks, Japanese, etc. Logic will tell a reasonable person that these terrorists are NOT Islamic in their actions and do not follow the tenets of their religion. There have been murderous Christian groups in the US but no one blamed all Christians for their behaviors.
It's always easier and more satisfying to point fingers away from ourselves.
1
Your false equivalencies are utterly fantastic. Put the blame where it belongs -- on ISIL and all the muslim "citizens" of Europe who refuse to stand against terrorism and refuse to assimilate into Western culture.
9
The Sunnis lost power and that explains Isis!
Since the terrorists are all Muslim, of course it is going to be Muslims who will be investigated. Sadly, there are innocent Muslims who will be inconvenienced -- but please dont' blame the French Authorities for that, blame the fact that terrorism is uniquely and inextricably associated with Islam and Muslims, and terrorists are being sheltered by Muslim people and Muslim communities.
Those Muslims who don't like what is happening in France, instead of simply repeating again and again, that their religion is one of peace, might want to give thought to why terrorism is consistently linked with Islam.
This problem we are having isn't a problem associated with police, Europe, America, capitalism, the West -- the problem is within Islam -- the problem is the question why, in spite of Islam being for many a "religion of peace", Islam and Islam alone gives rise to such exceptionally violent fanaticism.
Those Muslims who don't like what is happening in France, instead of simply repeating again and again, that their religion is one of peace, might want to give thought to why terrorism is consistently linked with Islam.
This problem we are having isn't a problem associated with police, Europe, America, capitalism, the West -- the problem is within Islam -- the problem is the question why, in spite of Islam being for many a "religion of peace", Islam and Islam alone gives rise to such exceptionally violent fanaticism.
15
In the US "profiling" is considered by many as unfair, and even racist. In reality, profiling is good police work. Period.
3
Daesh wins!!
The more Western nations fall to trampling our civil liberties the more they win.
We are in the process of radicalizing some of these people and in a year or two we will be wondering how this could have happened.
It is happening because when faced with terrorism we are more than happy to shred all of our constitutional rights and give over all in the name of security. I had hoped better of France for having the advantage of watching the United States go over the deep end. As we have seen here getting these civil liberties back again is much more difficult then giving them up initially.
The more Western nations fall to trampling our civil liberties the more they win.
We are in the process of radicalizing some of these people and in a year or two we will be wondering how this could have happened.
It is happening because when faced with terrorism we are more than happy to shred all of our constitutional rights and give over all in the name of security. I had hoped better of France for having the advantage of watching the United States go over the deep end. As we have seen here getting these civil liberties back again is much more difficult then giving them up initially.
2
I have been traveling through Spain, Italy and the Mediterranean for the past 3 weeks. Europe is extremely fearful. There are large contingents of heavily armed police in Rome, Barcelona, Napoli, and dozens of other cities. The mood of people is somber. People talk in hushed tones about their real fear of when and where ISIS will strike next. There is no question in their minds that its no longer a matter of if, but simply when.
There is also a great deal of criticism of the lack of American leadership and great dissatisfaction with Mr. Obama's casual regard for its allies. It appears to many Europeans that America has abandoned Europe. The shadow of the Russian bear also looms very large.
The losses in France could have been avoided if America had destroyed ISIS 2 years ago. There is a lot of resentment in Europe and a lot of fear.
There is also a great deal of criticism of the lack of American leadership and great dissatisfaction with Mr. Obama's casual regard for its allies. It appears to many Europeans that America has abandoned Europe. The shadow of the Russian bear also looms very large.
The losses in France could have been avoided if America had destroyed ISIS 2 years ago. There is a lot of resentment in Europe and a lot of fear.
3
"The losses in France could have been avoided if America had destroyed ISIS 2 years ago. There is a lot of resentment in Europe and a lot of fear."
What? Europe has the same population as the US. It should have an army under joint European command that is at least the same size as the US Army. In fact, during the Cold War, the West German Armed Forces alone were the same size as our US Armed Forces are today.
If Europe had the guts, it could just stand up and take care of itself. Now, being the eternal optimist, I hope that the current crisis finally leads to an awakening and triggers the building of a European strike force that can take care of things within its own sphere of interest. Which includes the Middle East.
What? Europe has the same population as the US. It should have an army under joint European command that is at least the same size as the US Army. In fact, during the Cold War, the West German Armed Forces alone were the same size as our US Armed Forces are today.
If Europe had the guts, it could just stand up and take care of itself. Now, being the eternal optimist, I hope that the current crisis finally leads to an awakening and triggers the building of a European strike force that can take care of things within its own sphere of interest. Which includes the Middle East.
9
Why someone would choose to attend a mosque "under surveillance" (as opposed to a mosque with less radical theological teachings) is beyond me.
If that is "simply" the only thing that they could be "accused" of, they might prefer, at least during the next few months, to pray in a less hostile, and intensely scrutinized, environment.
It's been evident for decades that radical teachings in radical mosques have created chaos in the lives of the young people involved, as well as with their families and communities.
If that is "simply" the only thing that they could be "accused" of, they might prefer, at least during the next few months, to pray in a less hostile, and intensely scrutinized, environment.
It's been evident for decades that radical teachings in radical mosques have created chaos in the lives of the young people involved, as well as with their families and communities.
14
In the associated press photo attached to this article, why do two of the police officers have bags of what appears to be climbers chalk attached to their belts? There's one officer in the foreground with the headset and a chalk bag. The other officer is just to the right of the officer who is kneeling with the backpack. He has what appears to be chalk on his butt and a climbers chalk bag.
Frankly, I could care less about Mr. Nougueras' Indignation over what he maintains is mistreatment of his Muslim clients in Paris. I am sick and tired of the Muslim communities and their endless complaining about their hard lives and poor treatment in the west. Leave France,leave Belgium,leave Europe, leave the United States and go back to your countries in the Middle East and live under Sharia Law. Let the Shiites and Sunnis and all their factions battle it out against each other for next millennium over who is right or wrong. But for those that want to stay in the west, I suggest you aggressively watch over your communities. Those terrorists were harbored in YOUR communities and it appears that not one Muslim citizen had any knowledge of these imminent attacks;not one Muslim citizen heard rumors or had suspicions;not one Muslim citizen thought to go to the police? If you don't want the police to break down your doors, conduct warrentless searches, haul away and place in custody 117 suspects then do your civic responsibility and proactively report those suspects to the police.
30
The speech by President François Hollande of France after the attacks on Paris showed many parallels with George W. Bush’s speeches after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001
Except for actions on citizens by the US were not paralleled like those in France
Except for actions on citizens by the US were not paralleled like those in France
1
I'm in a multi-cultural neighborhood in Paris, less than two metro stops from the attacks. Even on this cold rainy day, the streets around me are bustling. Grocery stores and shops are as crowded as usual. When I left the bakery with my baguette last evening, a long line of police vans idled along the curb, but no one seemed alarmed - people simply passed between their bumpers and went about their business. Some restaurants have fewer guests, ridership on the metro seems somewhat diminished, and there are more sirens (or perhaps I notice them more), but in my (subjective) experience, the people of Paris are reflective and watchful, but living their lives without any panic.
30
May I suggest in times of trouble: assimilate, quickly. Shave the beard, drop the burqa and the head scarf, pray at home, go to The Gap for all your clothing needs.
35
The buraq and niqab are already banned in France. Women in heavily conservative Muslim neighbourhoods wear them anyway, and about 900 were arrested this year, but they are never jailed and go right back on the street and put the burqa back on all while screaming how absolutely patriotically French they are: despite the fact that France also bans public wearing of kippahs and large crosses, all to shape a determinedly secular culture that the burqa wearers insist should not apply to them.
4
The "S" Files are kept on individuals monitored for potential threat to security, and are kept by the Direction Générale de la Sécurité Intérieure (DGSI). They include militants of the far left and right. The DGSI is reported to hold at least 5,000 such files, three-quarters of which relate to Islamist extremism.
To qualify, individuals need not have committed any crime, but must belong to an organisation deemed a “menace to the public peace”, such as an extremist mosque.
"S" Files overlap with other lists, including those in a special investigative folder dedicated to “the assembled spectre of radicalised persons”. Names are sub-categorised according to threat and type: S14 defines those known to be in, or returned from, Syria or Iraq.
People are in the "S" files for good reason.
Normally, "S" file individuals are observed, and not arrested until they commit a crime--following due process. If an individual ceased any suspicious activity for 3 years, security resources were transferred to monitor other individuals.
The S File system has identified many of those involved in mass murder. There have also been missed opportunities to catch dangerous persons, due to their lack of activity for a period of 3 years or longer.
I trust my Muslim clients and friends implicitly. I also respect French police who so quickly dispatched the Charlie Hebdo and Friday the 13th terrorists.
Recent searches are sending a message to would-be terrrorists--don't do it. You'll be caught.
To qualify, individuals need not have committed any crime, but must belong to an organisation deemed a “menace to the public peace”, such as an extremist mosque.
"S" Files overlap with other lists, including those in a special investigative folder dedicated to “the assembled spectre of radicalised persons”. Names are sub-categorised according to threat and type: S14 defines those known to be in, or returned from, Syria or Iraq.
People are in the "S" files for good reason.
Normally, "S" file individuals are observed, and not arrested until they commit a crime--following due process. If an individual ceased any suspicious activity for 3 years, security resources were transferred to monitor other individuals.
The S File system has identified many of those involved in mass murder. There have also been missed opportunities to catch dangerous persons, due to their lack of activity for a period of 3 years or longer.
I trust my Muslim clients and friends implicitly. I also respect French police who so quickly dispatched the Charlie Hebdo and Friday the 13th terrorists.
Recent searches are sending a message to would-be terrrorists--don't do it. You'll be caught.
27
I doubt that that message will be received or, rather, interpreted that way.
The terrorists will learn how to communicate without electronic media, which as the recent events have shown, can easily be tracked and from now on will be proactively tracked for all those on those lists. In the end, it is just a matter of how many people can one track without getting overwhelmed by the data. If that happens, then we will see again, what we have seen now repeatedly in the past, i.e. that AFTER the fact, we can reconstruct exactly what led up to it, but that the clues that could have prevented the massacre were missed in the sea of irrelevant information.
Let's remember, that even during the occupation of France during WWII, it was impossible for the Gestapo to track and control the Resistance, who obviously did not have smartphones, but relied on conventional means of communication, messengers, dead drops, secret signs, etc. With a large number of conspirators, in this case the disaffected Muslim community, there will no way for the DGSI to prevent that information flow.
The government won't be able to hold all those suspected terrorists or sympathizers forever. I hope they have a plan what to do next.
The terrorists will learn how to communicate without electronic media, which as the recent events have shown, can easily be tracked and from now on will be proactively tracked for all those on those lists. In the end, it is just a matter of how many people can one track without getting overwhelmed by the data. If that happens, then we will see again, what we have seen now repeatedly in the past, i.e. that AFTER the fact, we can reconstruct exactly what led up to it, but that the clues that could have prevented the massacre were missed in the sea of irrelevant information.
Let's remember, that even during the occupation of France during WWII, it was impossible for the Gestapo to track and control the Resistance, who obviously did not have smartphones, but relied on conventional means of communication, messengers, dead drops, secret signs, etc. With a large number of conspirators, in this case the disaffected Muslim community, there will no way for the DGSI to prevent that information flow.
The government won't be able to hold all those suspected terrorists or sympathizers forever. I hope they have a plan what to do next.
1
JJ, your points are well-taken. Up to now, there has been criticisim that French security did not act proactively enough using the "S" files. But that would have meant violation of due process, which is taken more seriously here than in the post 9/11 U.S.
Now they are using the lists proactively. It is not a total solution. We, and the West, (the Occident), are fighting against a style and belief system of the Middle East (Moyen-Orient). The West does not really know how to fight terrorism--who does?
I have suggested in the past that we, the West, should use social media to seduce the disaffected, the lonely, the angry--just as ISIS or Al Qaeda does--by paying a lot of attention to them, answering their questions, and recruiting them to our side.
I do not know that traditional Western warfare will work with terrorists, although France has had some success with Boko Haram.
I do not know that the terrorists have sufficient means to combat Western warfare. I just know that they are dangerous and attacks are unexpected.
Yes, they can use the means of the Resistance. We must do an even better job at stopping them.
Now they are using the lists proactively. It is not a total solution. We, and the West, (the Occident), are fighting against a style and belief system of the Middle East (Moyen-Orient). The West does not really know how to fight terrorism--who does?
I have suggested in the past that we, the West, should use social media to seduce the disaffected, the lonely, the angry--just as ISIS or Al Qaeda does--by paying a lot of attention to them, answering their questions, and recruiting them to our side.
I do not know that traditional Western warfare will work with terrorists, although France has had some success with Boko Haram.
I do not know that the terrorists have sufficient means to combat Western warfare. I just know that they are dangerous and attacks are unexpected.
Yes, they can use the means of the Resistance. We must do an even better job at stopping them.
1
They are scared and it is about time be so.
2
To the Muslims I have this question: what are you doing to decrease the violence in your community? Until you unequivically join the fight against ISIS you will be subject to what we need to do to protect ourselves. You have the chance to join us.
17
The Interior Ministry defended the measures in a news release on Friday. “These operations are going to continue,” the statement said, noting “the government’s total determination to fight without mercy against terrorism, and every threat to public order.”
the first principle of law is securing order in society. Anyone who thinks the introduction of terror and chaos through indiscriminate jihadist killings signals an unavoidable change in the societal order of things, or believes it tolerable, needs to rethink their position.
the first principle of law is securing order in society. Anyone who thinks the introduction of terror and chaos through indiscriminate jihadist killings signals an unavoidable change in the societal order of things, or believes it tolerable, needs to rethink their position.
3
Why has the Muslim community not yet purged itself of the extremists and terrorists in its midst? Why have they not even made a credible attempt to do so? "Not in my name" demonstrations are not enough.
I do not think there ought be surveillance (of mosques) without legitimate cause; but if someone who is tagged because of surveillance of a mosque, then he or she is either part of the problem or can choose to be part of the solution.
I do not think there ought be surveillance (of mosques) without legitimate cause; but if someone who is tagged because of surveillance of a mosque, then he or she is either part of the problem or can choose to be part of the solution.
9
Most will be all in on the conquest! Idle talk but nothing concrete to turn the jihadists in!
As a strong believer in civil liberties I nonetheless find myself utterly without sympathy for those being rounded up in Europe; talking on the phone with admitted terrorists or logging in to jihadist web sites ought to be considered as serious a violation of free speech privileges as partaking of child pornography, and the powers of the state to arrest people who have done these things ought to be undisputed. Muslims living in Europe have a firm moral obligation and probably in most places a legal obligation to reveal to the authorities the identities of people known to them who have admitted sympathizing with jihadism. The Europeans have finally found the right balance between rights and safety by no longer coddling those who have chosen to dally with these unspeakable ideologies of violence...
14
"As a strong believer in civil liberties..."
Your subsequent statements indicate that your belief in civil liberties is shallow, not strong.
Your subsequent statements indicate that your belief in civil liberties is shallow, not strong.
2
One of the more disturbing aspects of the reaction to the Paris attacks is that the American right-wing is looking approvingly at the behavior or European nations which follow starkly different behaviors than the US since we are governed by a Constitution. For example, I am sure the American right would love to kick in the doors of Muslims all over the country and haul them into detention centers while the police rifle through their belongings looking for suicide vests. For the American right, the suspension of civil liberties of minority groups is obvious and to resist it is to be "politically correct" to the point of inviting suicide bombers to kill us.
But I would caution the American right to remember that Europeans do not have our cherished first amendment. So the right hides behind the first amendment to spread hate, venom, racism, and to agitate for "religious liberty." They should know that no such protections exist in France. You can be hauled to jail for making anti-semitic comments in a bar, something Americans would find ridiculous.
Trumps says he would water-board people "even if it doesn't work." I don't doubt that when they look at Obama and claim he "doesn't have a plan for ISIS", they are really saying they are angry that the police aren't bashing in doors and finding the terrorist sleeper cells they've convinced themselves are hiding among law-abiding Muslims. It's disturbing in the extreme.
But I would caution the American right to remember that Europeans do not have our cherished first amendment. So the right hides behind the first amendment to spread hate, venom, racism, and to agitate for "religious liberty." They should know that no such protections exist in France. You can be hauled to jail for making anti-semitic comments in a bar, something Americans would find ridiculous.
Trumps says he would water-board people "even if it doesn't work." I don't doubt that when they look at Obama and claim he "doesn't have a plan for ISIS", they are really saying they are angry that the police aren't bashing in doors and finding the terrorist sleeper cells they've convinced themselves are hiding among law-abiding Muslims. It's disturbing in the extreme.
5
RS, please don't be ridiculous. I've lived in France now for 31 years and no one is being pulled in by the police for making anti-semetic remarks, or anti- muslim remarks, or anti-any group remarks.
You recall Charlie Hebdo, I suppose. They're kind of well known for satirizing every group and every religion and the people trtying to censor them are Islamic terrorists (and, as we know, they were using bullets to do that).
Yes, there are laws against hate speech and inciting violence against a particular group. But we're talking about taking that speech public in a big way, not because you told someone at a bar that you hate jews or can't stand arabs.
You recall Charlie Hebdo, I suppose. They're kind of well known for satirizing every group and every religion and the people trtying to censor them are Islamic terrorists (and, as we know, they were using bullets to do that).
Yes, there are laws against hate speech and inciting violence against a particular group. But we're talking about taking that speech public in a big way, not because you told someone at a bar that you hate jews or can't stand arabs.
2
“Police searches and house arrests can now be ordered by the Interior Ministry and the prefects”
Might the Times reporter have tried talking to these people and or other officials?
The article makes it sound like the police are kicking in every door and hauling everyone away which I doubt is the case.
Over reaching by the police is to be expected and may be the angle this reporter should have explored. Rather than the somewhat breathless sensationalism of the oncoming police state.
Might the Times reporter have tried talking to these people and or other officials?
The article makes it sound like the police are kicking in every door and hauling everyone away which I doubt is the case.
Over reaching by the police is to be expected and may be the angle this reporter should have explored. Rather than the somewhat breathless sensationalism of the oncoming police state.
5
Don't feel bad Frenchmen, They got us here in America good too, with their false flag operations, now every body feels so much SAFER !
1
I see comments criticizing the French authorities and their actions in all of this. It's easy to criticize when the ones doing it are sitting safe in in their homes or offices making comments on a computer. Isn't it?
15
I was at the Book of Mormon on Broadway the other day, which is as blasphemous as anything Charlie Hebdo ever printed, and actually stopped myself to check for emergency exits because I thought to myself, "gee, if crazy gunmen storm into this theater, we are all sitting ducks" and "man, I'd really hate getting shot in the chest by a rifle".
Then I realized that, yes, I'd put up with a little more security intrusions to feel safer and to actually reduce the chance of dying by gunshot on a night out.
And secondly I realized that if the play was a blasphemous and offensive satire of Islam instead of Mormonism, no one would fee safe in there and it would shut down. And if that isn't telling, then I don't know what is.
Then I realized that, yes, I'd put up with a little more security intrusions to feel safer and to actually reduce the chance of dying by gunshot on a night out.
And secondly I realized that if the play was a blasphemous and offensive satire of Islam instead of Mormonism, no one would fee safe in there and it would shut down. And if that isn't telling, then I don't know what is.
41
Indeed, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints placed ads in the Book of Mormon playbills . . . "You've seen the play . . . now read The Book". And others. See
http://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2013/02/12/mormons-see-marketing...
http://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2013/02/12/mormons-see-marketing...
2
Do you mean to say these people are complaining about this situation? Have they no sense of decency whatever?
10
Of course, had French authorities cracked down two weeks ago on the hundreds, even thousands, of known ISIS supporters, veterans of the Syria jihad, etc., 130 people would be alive today. Easy to pontificate about possible "human rights" abuses of Muslims at the Times which true to form seems more concerned about that than the total deprivation of human rights of these 130 innocent victims of merciless killers.
20
What these terrorists have accomplished is provoking a liberal democracy into throwing out the very freedoms that make a democracy liberal. The dilemma for political leaders in a democracy is guaranteeing the safety of its citizens while at the same time preserving the liberties that make it a democracy ---terrorists bet on, and are quite comfortable with, throwing out the freedoms.
6
“But in a discriminatory manner, because it will concern Muslims"
--Daniele Lochak, law professor, University of Paris
*****
Because being Muslim is a pre-requisite. It wouldn't make sense for them to look at non-Muslims. Think how helpful it would be to the terrorists if they could not approach Muslims based on their religion. That would provide a very nice barrier and give terrorists a lot of room to maneuver.
--Daniele Lochak, law professor, University of Paris
*****
Because being Muslim is a pre-requisite. It wouldn't make sense for them to look at non-Muslims. Think how helpful it would be to the terrorists if they could not approach Muslims based on their religion. That would provide a very nice barrier and give terrorists a lot of room to maneuver.
11
In the aftermath of 9/11, the U.S. was pretty heavily criticized by several European communities for its heavy handed tactics--searches, arrests, interrogations--perhaps thinking their government wouldn't react the same? It's interesting to now see how this plays out in their own backyards.
6
NYT stick to the facts. Mr Nossiters opinion regarding France's response to Islamic terrorism belongs on the opinion page. Europe is now in the belly of the beast. They will deal with it as they see fit . Alas our turn is coming too and we will deal with it as we see fit.
12
So the solution to fighting terrorism is to terrorize all people who are Muslim in your country? This is exactly what the terrorists want. For the government to start to act rashly and taking away freedoms and due process. It reveals our hypocrisy in the very least. In America young white men have been responsible for an overwhelming number of mass shootings in this country. By this reasoning, these incidents could be thwarted by simply raiding every home where a young white man resides. I doubt you would find a rocket launcher, but you would most definitely find more than 200 weapons.
3
Thank you. Reading these cimments has been disheartening in the least frightening at most. I appreciate a voice of reason.
1
I am not sure that I would equate searches and seizures of suspected terrorists, even without a court order, to be equivalent to the random murder of civilians. Did you really mean to make that comparison?
1
Late, but good for them. Muslims brought this on themselves, why not go back to Muslim countries, if they want no surveillance ?
13
Ironically, if they go back to their countries many Muslims will get the same or more surveillance on a regular basis since the majority of Muslim states are authoritarian.
3
the response to all of these attacks should be swift and merciless and relentless. And unfortunately it must also be long-term. Liberties will be infringed upon, but it should be kept to a bare minimum and focused on individuals who are known to be connected to Terror groups.
All of these terrorists were known to authorities in France and Belgium, countries must be more vigilant in their surveillance of these people and their groups.
this will not be over in a week, month, or a year, this is and will be a long term war against these Islamic extremists.
All of these terrorists were known to authorities in France and Belgium, countries must be more vigilant in their surveillance of these people and their groups.
this will not be over in a week, month, or a year, this is and will be a long term war against these Islamic extremists.
4
Would this attack have happened if firearms were more available to the public in France?
3
"You cannot be serious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - John McEnroe
4
There would be more dead on an everyday basis, that's for certain. Give it up on the guns fix everything meme.
1
Why limit ourselves to firearms, we should enhance the 2nd amendment, to allow citizen to own grenades, anti-tanks missiles and any modern weaponry you name it; and on the Walmart shelves. We will surely be safer with this new amendment enhancement.
2
The Muslim Community is upset.......really? The terrorists could not have accomplished their dastardly deed without the cover and support of the "no go zones" in which they hid.
If the Muslims are so concerned about their freedoms they should start cooperating with the authorities. At the very least their Leaders should be speaking out and condemning these fanatics who are purportedly high jacking their religion. But I won't hold my breadth.
But if they are that upset than maybe they should return to their own countries and enjoy all of the "freedoms" offered back home..... and then see how they like it.
If the Muslims are so concerned about their freedoms they should start cooperating with the authorities. At the very least their Leaders should be speaking out and condemning these fanatics who are purportedly high jacking their religion. But I won't hold my breadth.
But if they are that upset than maybe they should return to their own countries and enjoy all of the "freedoms" offered back home..... and then see how they like it.
36
I went up to Paris from my base in Orleans while the Algerians and French were going after each other. Somehow I felt safe because it was never like it is today in Paris with ISIL.
1
The whole point of terrorism is to frighten and bring about changes to society that the killers want to see. That said; I do believe the attack on Paris is the tipping point I have been waiting for. Up until now the rest of the world has treated I.S.I.S. as a nuisance; now it is crystal clear they must be destroyed at all cost. The West has been at such pains as not to offend the Muslim world that our actions have been pathetically weak; and allowed the evil to expand and grow. If the threat is to be met and defeated the entire civilized world (especially MODERATE (?) Muslim states) must come together to put an end to these death cults. If the Islamic world is unwilling to join in on fighting these killers; one has to wonder whose side they are on. AS for civil liberties; in October; 1970/ Canada the government of Pierre Trudeau invoked the War Measures Act putting soldiers in the street of Montreal in response to a terrorist group known as the F.L.Q.; and within days the bad guys were fleeing to asylum in Cuba. It put an end to the handful of terrorists actions in Canada quickly/ decisively/ and permanently. Sanity was restored!
11
• Concern is rising, particularly in Muslim communities being singled out, that France now runs the risk of tipping steeply in favor of security at the expense of individual freedoms and of instigating tension with a Muslim population — the largest in Western Europe — that has already long felt aggrieved and second class.
Excuse me but WHO is "aggrieved", "instigating tension"? Who is to be suspected and targeted, Japanese tourists perhaps?
What France "risks" is more atrocities committed by Islamists already there. France is not the backhanded USA using scare tactics and goblins to spy on the general population. There is a real, present and distinct threat and emergency to root out and resolve. Who are Americans to speak from their safehouse across the "big pond", they who started it all with their lies of WMDs and wars of choice?
Tend to your own terror: Gunmen Sought After 5 Are Shot at Protest of Police in Minneapolis, NYTimes, 24/11/15, mass shooting #338 of 2015 in the USA. Let the French and Belgians deal with theirs as they deem fit.
Excuse me but WHO is "aggrieved", "instigating tension"? Who is to be suspected and targeted, Japanese tourists perhaps?
What France "risks" is more atrocities committed by Islamists already there. France is not the backhanded USA using scare tactics and goblins to spy on the general population. There is a real, present and distinct threat and emergency to root out and resolve. Who are Americans to speak from their safehouse across the "big pond", they who started it all with their lies of WMDs and wars of choice?
Tend to your own terror: Gunmen Sought After 5 Are Shot at Protest of Police in Minneapolis, NYTimes, 24/11/15, mass shooting #338 of 2015 in the USA. Let the French and Belgians deal with theirs as they deem fit.
26
Thanks Robert. Curious - do you know how many casualties there have been from the 338 mass shootings in the USA this year? Curious to see how that compares to people killed in a terrorist attack.
I've long thought that if I die a violent death it won't be at the hands of a terrorist but from some every day joe in a movie theater who didn't like the way I was munching on my popcorn.
I've long thought that if I die a violent death it won't be at the hands of a terrorist but from some every day joe in a movie theater who didn't like the way I was munching on my popcorn.
"Concern is rising, particularly in Muslim communities being singled out, that France now runs the risk of tipping steeply in favor of security at the expense of individual freedoms and of instigating tension with a Muslim population — the largest in Western Europe — that has already long felt aggrieved and second class."
It is that the Muslim communities consider themselves Muslims first, and French second -- if at all -- and that those communities insist on insularity, even demanding Sharia which is antithetical to the state's judicial processes, that leads to their tension, their feeling "second class."
The rooms where the terrorists lived and created their plans, their bombs, are all inside Muslin communities. The authorities are certain that additional would-be terrorists are already present in France. So, of course, these Muslim enclaves, refusing integration into French society, maintaining their views of Western culture as inferior to theirs, harboring those angry about their self-imposed isolation, are where the French properly focus their attention. Has any Muslim ever reported suspicious behavior to the authorities? I suspect the answer is, “No.” So the authorities must seek them out without help.
The Muslim communities brought this upon themselves. It's an old saw: Fish where the fish are.
It is that the Muslim communities consider themselves Muslims first, and French second -- if at all -- and that those communities insist on insularity, even demanding Sharia which is antithetical to the state's judicial processes, that leads to their tension, their feeling "second class."
The rooms where the terrorists lived and created their plans, their bombs, are all inside Muslin communities. The authorities are certain that additional would-be terrorists are already present in France. So, of course, these Muslim enclaves, refusing integration into French society, maintaining their views of Western culture as inferior to theirs, harboring those angry about their self-imposed isolation, are where the French properly focus their attention. Has any Muslim ever reported suspicious behavior to the authorities? I suspect the answer is, “No.” So the authorities must seek them out without help.
The Muslim communities brought this upon themselves. It's an old saw: Fish where the fish are.
39
We should be the last ones to criticize the French. They are under siege by a portion of their population they took in, fed, educated and cared for. Now look. I congratulated President Hollande for showing leadership. My only wish is for a stronger response from our own government.
30
The majority of the people who perpetrated the acts weren't people that they "took in", they were French citizens. That kind of speech shows prejudice.
1
Leave it to the French to have the perfect clothing for urban warfare.
6
It's true. Fact is that many of these measures should have been in place before the attacks instead of being a reaction. Of course individual liberties are supremely important, but we are less concerned today with a tyrannical state than with a tyrannical enemy within. Democracy, and particular the left, which has an extremely hard time in properly prioritizing freedom of religion as against other recognized rights of the individual (right to life, equality, etc.) will have to evolve. Long past due.
16
When people are no longer concerned about a tyrannical state, they are likely to get one.
I am a Muslim and I have no troubles with either the police, or security services here in Canada. They don't bother me or have ever disturbed me in any way. I am neither afraid of the police or anyone else and I am sure they would come to my aid if I had trouble with any idiot on the street. I think the Immigration service here owes me about C$3000 due to their computer screw up but I have forgiven them for it, not forgotten though.
The Muslims in France, however, have had a lot of trouble from government officials to private folks with employment and other day to day lives. Lets be frank here: the French are very racist people. May I suggest a solution: can the Muslims in France, ALL OF THEM, start to liquidate their assets and those who can, i.e. have high education etc., make immigration applications to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, maybe (yes maybe) USA (I consider US immigration process very arduous). And, the older generation who cannot go through the immigration process or who will not be accepted due to their age etc. may consider returning to Morocco, Algeria (their home countries for the most part) to live a peaceful retired life. Leave the French to their devices. Furthermore, DO NOT show any welcome to the French, Belgians into your countries. When they visit, do not give them any services, do not rent them hotels, provide them service at restaurants, etc. so they feel unwelcome and not return. I know you like their euros but show a bit of self respect.
The Muslims in France, however, have had a lot of trouble from government officials to private folks with employment and other day to day lives. Lets be frank here: the French are very racist people. May I suggest a solution: can the Muslims in France, ALL OF THEM, start to liquidate their assets and those who can, i.e. have high education etc., make immigration applications to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, maybe (yes maybe) USA (I consider US immigration process very arduous). And, the older generation who cannot go through the immigration process or who will not be accepted due to their age etc. may consider returning to Morocco, Algeria (their home countries for the most part) to live a peaceful retired life. Leave the French to their devices. Furthermore, DO NOT show any welcome to the French, Belgians into your countries. When they visit, do not give them any services, do not rent them hotels, provide them service at restaurants, etc. so they feel unwelcome and not return. I know you like their euros but show a bit of self respect.
2
Be sure and blame the Police when they are trying to protect you then WHINE when Terrorists blow up your city. Letting Muslims in without screening them for terrorists and then hoping your Liberal Utopia will last forever always turns out like this.
12
What we need is a UN resolution to condemn France of excessive use of force.
1
Please tell me that your reporter is joking. He admits that there are no "public" indications of displeasure with the emergency measures but sort of suggests it might be so. C'mon, the French people ripped by terror know what's best for them. (Does he want to give the Congressional Medal of Honor to our arch whistleblower and protector of our liberties one. Mr. Snowden.)
President Hollande, a French left-winger no less, is coming to Washington. Our President would be wise to listen to him carefully,
President Hollande, a French left-winger no less, is coming to Washington. Our President would be wise to listen to him carefully,
10
French leaders are fools. Asleep for decades, they have groggily awakened to dangers predictable, as is the response of Frenchmen once they tire of spasmodic tyrannical fits.
We the masses, in western free countries generally assume all countries
basically want democracy and have some kind of democracy, but the reality
is scary - just google human rights abuses in the most powerful Muslim countries and learn.
With a single Google search of human rights abuses in a couple of major
players in the Muslim world such as Saudi Arabia - the home of Islam (a huge Sunni US ally) and Iran which is a theocratic revolutionary state, we learn they are Theocratic.
A theocracy, according to the dictionary, is "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.” Pretty scary right? Their leaders actions are God’s words - supposedly.
Muslim in the ghettos in London, Paris have huge problems. They don’t fit in because they can’t. Then they are ostracized. So why should we import thousands of Muslim refugees? They will never fit in, they can’t fit in, they don’t want to completely fit in and then you have uncontrollable "divinely" inspired problems.
In WWII, in Japan, The emperor a living God. It was more honorable to
die for your emperor than to come back alive. Atomic bombs will not work in this case. I just hope we don't end up in a biblical war because the enemy will never give up, not like the Japanese who stopped when Hirohito said to.
Anything ring a bell?
basically want democracy and have some kind of democracy, but the reality
is scary - just google human rights abuses in the most powerful Muslim countries and learn.
With a single Google search of human rights abuses in a couple of major
players in the Muslim world such as Saudi Arabia - the home of Islam (a huge Sunni US ally) and Iran which is a theocratic revolutionary state, we learn they are Theocratic.
A theocracy, according to the dictionary, is "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.” Pretty scary right? Their leaders actions are God’s words - supposedly.
Muslim in the ghettos in London, Paris have huge problems. They don’t fit in because they can’t. Then they are ostracized. So why should we import thousands of Muslim refugees? They will never fit in, they can’t fit in, they don’t want to completely fit in and then you have uncontrollable "divinely" inspired problems.
In WWII, in Japan, The emperor a living God. It was more honorable to
die for your emperor than to come back alive. Atomic bombs will not work in this case. I just hope we don't end up in a biblical war because the enemy will never give up, not like the Japanese who stopped when Hirohito said to.
Anything ring a bell?
12
As well it should be. Intense acts of terror require immediate intense measures. I remember these cops all dressed in black, burqa-like, during my first Paris sojourn in 1970 – nasty and not to be messed with. I missed them after "Charlie Hebdo". Welcome back!
6
I would rather live with the uncertainty of life (the only thing certain in life is uncertainty) than to give up my liberties to the state. That being said, I don't live in a big city. Perhaps if I did I might change my tune. But I don't think so. If we allow the terrorists to paralyze us with fear - and the media in America with their 24/7 coverage is complicit in this - then they really have won. But I knew that as soon as W, turning away the world's sympathy after 9/11 (even Iran offered to help!), that our liberties would soon be gone. And thanks to Edward Snowden, we know that is true.
Whatever happened to the 'land of the free and the home of the brave'?
I really hope we can emulate the Parisians who are back to the business of living a good life with all it's uncertainty.
Whatever happened to the 'land of the free and the home of the brave'?
I really hope we can emulate the Parisians who are back to the business of living a good life with all it's uncertainty.
1
Well Gee since they have no go zones it seems like every one should be ringed and searched in total. Abuses? Have people been killed, beaten? I don't hear this except when they kill or attempt to kill.
6
Let's see 200 weapons and a rocket launcher in a country with very very strict firearms laws. Ok I think perhaps the police need to keep doing what they are doing. People are scared and rightfully so. The US State Department has issued a worldwide warning to Americans traveling abroad. So I am thinking if you live in Europe or even in NYC you have a right to be scared.
Political correctness indirectly has allowed a huge segment of European society to remain separate and open borders has also allowed terrorists to plot move so freely from country to country in the EU.
I don't blame the French government one bit for extending the emergency powers. Again, 200 weapons and a freaking rocket launcher which could bring down a plane I am guessing that is either taking off or landing at an airport killing triple the amount of people the past attack did. Wake up world the Radical Islamists are right next door to you living in the freedom and security the West which they want to destroy provide for them.
Good luck France and the rest of the world for that matter. Until the Muslim countries decide to fight back and not wait for the West to bail them out ISIS isn't going away. Arm all the able bodies males that are entering Europe as refugees and turn them around to fight to liberate own countries. The French, Poles, Norwegians and Danes to name a few did it in WWII! It seems that part of the world aside from the Kurds have no backbone to do this. I don't understand why.
Political correctness indirectly has allowed a huge segment of European society to remain separate and open borders has also allowed terrorists to plot move so freely from country to country in the EU.
I don't blame the French government one bit for extending the emergency powers. Again, 200 weapons and a freaking rocket launcher which could bring down a plane I am guessing that is either taking off or landing at an airport killing triple the amount of people the past attack did. Wake up world the Radical Islamists are right next door to you living in the freedom and security the West which they want to destroy provide for them.
Good luck France and the rest of the world for that matter. Until the Muslim countries decide to fight back and not wait for the West to bail them out ISIS isn't going away. Arm all the able bodies males that are entering Europe as refugees and turn them around to fight to liberate own countries. The French, Poles, Norwegians and Danes to name a few did it in WWII! It seems that part of the world aside from the Kurds have no backbone to do this. I don't understand why.
17
"All over France, from Toulouse in the south to Paris and beyond, the police have been breaking down doors, conducting searches without warrants, aggressively questioning residents, hauling suspects to police stations and putting others under house arrest."
I was under the impression that Le président de la France is a liberal. I cannot understand this reaction to a criminal act. I should think he would know better than to reduce liberté throughout his country. Can we possibly blame Republicans for this?
I was under the impression that Le président de la France is a liberal. I cannot understand this reaction to a criminal act. I should think he would know better than to reduce liberté throughout his country. Can we possibly blame Republicans for this?
2
ISIS is winning throughout the western world. Tourism is down, & my wife recently said, I hope they don't take our Grandchildren to the Macy Thanks Giving Parade. Fear is in & tolerance is out.The reaction by the French Police was to be expected.In parts of the United States if ISIS had committed the same atrocity as they did in Paris, Muslims would be hanging from trees. Fear creates irrational behavior, the only solution is a blood libel against ISIS. People ,will only be soothed by the total annihilation of ISIS, with no prisoners taken.It's really what we are all about.Where is Jesus anyway ?
2
Let's just face the facts: The world is a dangerous place. There are a million and one ways to get hurt or killed every day in the Western World and a million and three ways in the Rest of the World.
Letting governments and police trample on our liberties and privacy in the name of security cannot be tolerated. We face risks in our day to day lives, and we need to accept some of that risk rather than the surety of the government surveilling our communications and kicking down our doors every now and then.
Letting governments and police trample on our liberties and privacy in the name of security cannot be tolerated. We face risks in our day to day lives, and we need to accept some of that risk rather than the surety of the government surveilling our communications and kicking down our doors every now and then.
2
I hope the NYT and other ‘politically correct’ elements realize that even if only a very small percentage of the refugees are fundamentalists, or terrorists, this will translate into thousands of real threats.
Perhaps this paper should reconsider the definition of "appropriate".
While we cannot fall into the intimidation of becoming intolerant beasts and mistreating all Muslims as terrorists – we have to have a much more honest conversation about Islam, and what bringing in millions of Muslim may mean to the West.
The truth is that we have entire countries, like Saudi Arabia, Iran etc that are still stoning women and torturing homosexuals. The idea that we accept these atrocities in the name or ‘cultural relevance’ or ‘political correctness’ indicates our own moral depravity.
The NYT must provide better coverage of these incidents, that are ‘culturally driven’, in order to ignite honest dialogues on what Islam means to the West. The intolerant version is not practiced by a few extremist – but by entire countries – by hundreds of millions.
Our main threat is our own ignorance – and prioritizing ideology over truth.
We must come together and define what tolerant Islam is and its place in the West. I still firmly believe that the great majority of Muslims are tolerant and peace loving – but we must come together and speak a bit louder; as tolerant people against any corrupt version of religious preaching oppression of religious freedom, sexual freedom, race or gender.
Perhaps this paper should reconsider the definition of "appropriate".
While we cannot fall into the intimidation of becoming intolerant beasts and mistreating all Muslims as terrorists – we have to have a much more honest conversation about Islam, and what bringing in millions of Muslim may mean to the West.
The truth is that we have entire countries, like Saudi Arabia, Iran etc that are still stoning women and torturing homosexuals. The idea that we accept these atrocities in the name or ‘cultural relevance’ or ‘political correctness’ indicates our own moral depravity.
The NYT must provide better coverage of these incidents, that are ‘culturally driven’, in order to ignite honest dialogues on what Islam means to the West. The intolerant version is not practiced by a few extremist – but by entire countries – by hundreds of millions.
Our main threat is our own ignorance – and prioritizing ideology over truth.
We must come together and define what tolerant Islam is and its place in the West. I still firmly believe that the great majority of Muslims are tolerant and peace loving – but we must come together and speak a bit louder; as tolerant people against any corrupt version of religious preaching oppression of religious freedom, sexual freedom, race or gender.
24
So many of these Islamic countries are Theocracies which is "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.” Just Google the atrocities and human rights violations in Saudi Arabia alone and you'll be shocked.
It's never reported. Any news you hear about Saudi Arabia the heart of Islam will last a day or two and then disappear.
Western logic means nothing to these theocratic oppressive people. They completely laugh at us and rule with no mercy. Very medieval.
It's never reported. Any news you hear about Saudi Arabia the heart of Islam will last a day or two and then disappear.
Western logic means nothing to these theocratic oppressive people. They completely laugh at us and rule with no mercy. Very medieval.
1
Ethnic profiling of Muslim security risks is, unfortunately, necessary because the ISIS terrorists are fanatical Muslims. ISIS is not an equal opportunity employer.
22
"Participants in all the major terror attacks were in The S files." Had the current more stringent security measures been in effect two weeks ago than no Friday attack would have occurred. And the post-attack searches seem to have about a 10% positive hit rate for weapons. Since there are only about 5,000 names on the S-file list the current policy seems to make a lot of sense. If the French can identify people who have been to Syria within the past few years it would seem prudent to investigate their activities. I certainly hope the US is doing that.
8
My hope however, is that Paris/France learn from the lessons of the post-9/11 police buildup and how it continues to have repercussions today. The recent and highly publicized accounts of police brutality and shootings is directly linked with the militarization of our police forces across the nation.
Keeping as calm, level-headed and sincere as possible during this harrowing time will help prevent the knee-jerk response of willingly trading away our liberty; something I hear France is quite keen on.
Those who turn in their freedom for protection deserve neither.
Keeping as calm, level-headed and sincere as possible during this harrowing time will help prevent the knee-jerk response of willingly trading away our liberty; something I hear France is quite keen on.
Those who turn in their freedom for protection deserve neither.
5
Sir, these raids are uncovering bombs, weapons, rocket launchers, etc Seems to me the French are being level headed. can say the same for you or the Old Gret Lady.
3
So police brutality and unwarranted shootings today are now being blamed on the Patriot Act and the Department of Homeland Security. Okay.
Oppressors must be oppressed.
Americans are still trying to change the Patriot Act enacted immediately following 911. Enacted by the Bush Administration and legislators eager to fight terrorism by allowing law enforcement the ability to spy on Americans.
Europeans should remember the recent allegations of Americans spying on them. This was a result of the Patriot Act. Careful Parisians during this delicate time to allow your government to intrude into your lives during this heighten time of fear.
Europeans should remember the recent allegations of Americans spying on them. This was a result of the Patriot Act. Careful Parisians during this delicate time to allow your government to intrude into your lives during this heighten time of fear.
It doesn't matter how many hundreds or thousands of people are killed by terrorists, the most important thing is not to restrict civil liberties and the right to privacy. It's far better to risk being blown up at the weekly farmers' market then to know that an innocent person was inconvenienced and made to feel bad. Just because the terrorists have been religious Muslim who dedicate their slaughters to Allah, it's crucial to remember that these killings have nothing to do with Islam or with Muslims. Profiling only antagonizes Muslim and makes it more likely for them to become violent. So it's best to leave these as they are and just take our chances. Don't you think?
15
What makes your satire so poignant is that it is only a slight exageration of how the left reacts to policing. I am sure more than a few Times readers were nodding in agreement as they read your comment.
3
Most Muslims in the West don't seem to care about earning and supporting peace and all the rights that comes with being contributing members of a free-society. If they did they would have rooted out the terrorists in their midst.
Instead they hide, shelter and support Islamic terrorists that practice what they claim they oppose. Talking about taking action is nothing, but talk. Islam in the West must get over its bias religious favoritism and fear of the extremists and fight for the liberty they say they want.
If a people are not with the country they live in and fighting for it when in danger, than they must be considered against it. In my mind that makes them enemies of the state in a time of war and their activities or lack of, is treason and criminal.
The idea of equality was originally Christian, but we can only be equals when it is practiced and supported by all.
Instead they hide, shelter and support Islamic terrorists that practice what they claim they oppose. Talking about taking action is nothing, but talk. Islam in the West must get over its bias religious favoritism and fear of the extremists and fight for the liberty they say they want.
If a people are not with the country they live in and fighting for it when in danger, than they must be considered against it. In my mind that makes them enemies of the state in a time of war and their activities or lack of, is treason and criminal.
The idea of equality was originally Christian, but we can only be equals when it is practiced and supported by all.
17
Ratonnade - Rat hunt
A strong dilemma in a desperate case
To act with infamy or quit the place
Jonathan Swift
From Freud we know that men who fear run away or - if flight is not possible - attack. In his book “A Savage War of Peace – Algeria 1954 - 1962” Alistair Horne gives an account of the war on terror during the French Algerian war, which is frightening similar to what we experience today. We could learn from it. Here is a small example.
http://www.english.kamus-quantum.com/15.html
A strong dilemma in a desperate case
To act with infamy or quit the place
Jonathan Swift
From Freud we know that men who fear run away or - if flight is not possible - attack. In his book “A Savage War of Peace – Algeria 1954 - 1962” Alistair Horne gives an account of the war on terror during the French Algerian war, which is frightening similar to what we experience today. We could learn from it. Here is a small example.
http://www.english.kamus-quantum.com/15.html
1
This newspaper has gone so far off the deep end. After a horrific terror attack, does the Times believe that the authorities in any country would just sit back and say "oh well, we'll get 'em next time," and then move on to traffic infraction enforcement? In what world do police and the state apparatus not react aggressively to such a ghastly and deadly event?
Further, I am so very tired of this newspaper and the rest of the media turning its focus to the "plight" of Muslims immediately after terror attacks by Islamic terrorists. I believe the number of articles and opinion pieces run by the Times on just how awful Muslims are being treated by the West in the wake of the Paris attacks has equaled, if not surpassed, the number of articles on the attacks themselves. The articles about the poor, abused Muslims in France and Belgium have certainly occupied more Times real estate than stories on the actual victims of the Paris attacks. And now this piece: why is it not logical for the French and Belgian authorities to focus on the Muslim community from where the vast majority of the attackers came? How is that "racist," which is the clear implication in this article (as in a great number of other Times articles)? Why does the left and the liberal media spend so much time worrying about people whose beliefs are essentially diametrically opposed to what liberals normally stand for?
Further, I am so very tired of this newspaper and the rest of the media turning its focus to the "plight" of Muslims immediately after terror attacks by Islamic terrorists. I believe the number of articles and opinion pieces run by the Times on just how awful Muslims are being treated by the West in the wake of the Paris attacks has equaled, if not surpassed, the number of articles on the attacks themselves. The articles about the poor, abused Muslims in France and Belgium have certainly occupied more Times real estate than stories on the actual victims of the Paris attacks. And now this piece: why is it not logical for the French and Belgian authorities to focus on the Muslim community from where the vast majority of the attackers came? How is that "racist," which is the clear implication in this article (as in a great number of other Times articles)? Why does the left and the liberal media spend so much time worrying about people whose beliefs are essentially diametrically opposed to what liberals normally stand for?
44
Agreed absolutely. The liberal press has no perspective anymore.
6
I have no sympathy for these people! They want your country and its riches!
2
I hope the NYT and other ‘politically correct’ elements realize that even if only a very small percentage of the refugees are fundamentalists, or terrorists, this will translate into thousands of real threats.
I hope the paper reconsiders its idea of what "appropriate" is.
While we cannot fall into the intimidation of becoming intolerant beasts and mistreating all Muslims as terrorists – we have to have a much more honest conversation about Islam, and what bringing in millions of Muslim may mean to the West.
The truth is that we have entire countries, like Saudi Arabia, Iran etc that are still stoning women and torturing homosexuals. The idea that we accept these atrocities in the name or ‘cultural relevance’ or ‘political correctness’ indicates our own moral depravity.
The NYT must provide better coverage of these incidents, that are ‘culturally driven’, in order to ignite honest dialogues on what Islam means to the West. The intolerant version is not practiced by a few extremist – but by entire countries – by hundreds of millions.
Our main threat is our own ignorance – and prioritizing ideology over truth.
We must come together and define what tolerant Islam is and its place in the West. I still firmly believe that the great majority of Muslims are tolerant and peace loving – but we must come together and speak a bit louder; as tolerant people against any corrupt version of religious preaching oppression of religious freedom, sexual freedom, race or gender.
I hope the paper reconsiders its idea of what "appropriate" is.
While we cannot fall into the intimidation of becoming intolerant beasts and mistreating all Muslims as terrorists – we have to have a much more honest conversation about Islam, and what bringing in millions of Muslim may mean to the West.
The truth is that we have entire countries, like Saudi Arabia, Iran etc that are still stoning women and torturing homosexuals. The idea that we accept these atrocities in the name or ‘cultural relevance’ or ‘political correctness’ indicates our own moral depravity.
The NYT must provide better coverage of these incidents, that are ‘culturally driven’, in order to ignite honest dialogues on what Islam means to the West. The intolerant version is not practiced by a few extremist – but by entire countries – by hundreds of millions.
Our main threat is our own ignorance – and prioritizing ideology over truth.
We must come together and define what tolerant Islam is and its place in the West. I still firmly believe that the great majority of Muslims are tolerant and peace loving – but we must come together and speak a bit louder; as tolerant people against any corrupt version of religious preaching oppression of religious freedom, sexual freedom, race or gender.
14
Millions of Muslims in France guarantee terrorism - which naturally flows from this group. Ask the Belgians. Try a visit to Bavaria where snarling military age Arabs roam. The Muslim world can take care of these people, but they want them to take over Europe.
17
Deport them by brutal force if they are menacing and violent! Nobody takes these guys on and it makes them brazen!
1
Tough. Perhaps if these communities did a better job of giving up the criminals and terrorists in their midst -- better yet, snuff them out or such instincts themselves as a family, as a community -- there would be less of this.
When you're trading off the liberties of a few versus the lives of many, I don't see what the choice really is.
When you're trading off the liberties of a few versus the lives of many, I don't see what the choice really is.
28
"An indication of the lingering shock of the attacks — and the fear coursing through French society — is that few, publicly at least, are protesting these exceptional measures".
I find it astonishing that this (of a number of examples in the article) could appear in a news piece, where it is assumed that the exceptional measures should be "protested", and result from "fear".
I suggest the following is a much fairer way to state the matter:
"As a result of the recent heinous Islamist attacks — and the evident resolve of the French to resist them— the traditional media appear almost unanimously in support of the emergency measures taken".
And so on...
I find it astonishing that this (of a number of examples in the article) could appear in a news piece, where it is assumed that the exceptional measures should be "protested", and result from "fear".
I suggest the following is a much fairer way to state the matter:
"As a result of the recent heinous Islamist attacks — and the evident resolve of the French to resist them— the traditional media appear almost unanimously in support of the emergency measures taken".
And so on...
14
It will be interesting to see what Anonymous does to ISIS. The secretive hacking group has declared war on the terrorists. We know that ISIS has grown through the internet and high tech communication. If Anonymous is successful, it would show the world that it is much more efficient to invest in brains over brawn. Heavy handed policing and invasive security are no match for some hackers sitting in a WiFi cafe, destroying the communications of a deadly subversive religious group.
5
The time for Muslims to raise their voices was at home while their young were being radicalized by a 7th century Islamofascist Salafist sect. The time to raise their voices was when an alleged "true French patriot" took France to the European Court of Human Right to get the country's ban on the burqa and niqab overturned so she could wedge medieval views of women into French secular society legally. Where were all the concerns from the Muslim community when French-Arab youth mobs looted and burned Jewish shops in Sarcelles in summer 2014?
Muslim indignation in Europe is entirely selective. The Muslim community never loses an opportunity to lose an opportunity - such as, for example, instead showing that their indignation is not so selective and stating that absolutely, these are horrific times, they want perps caught as much as anyone else and they get it. Instead, as usual, they're only worried about themselves - just like the woman who wanted that burqa overturned: it wasn't about France: it was about her and about Islam.
The unhappy truth is that without special powers, western and northern Europe becomes the sitting duck that IS clearly believes it is. As others have pointed out, western liberalism stands a very good chance of carrying the seeds of its own undoing. And as has also been pointed out many times in the last 25 years as Europe ignored the problem in its midst, Europe should have started listening 40 years ago.
Muslim indignation in Europe is entirely selective. The Muslim community never loses an opportunity to lose an opportunity - such as, for example, instead showing that their indignation is not so selective and stating that absolutely, these are horrific times, they want perps caught as much as anyone else and they get it. Instead, as usual, they're only worried about themselves - just like the woman who wanted that burqa overturned: it wasn't about France: it was about her and about Islam.
The unhappy truth is that without special powers, western and northern Europe becomes the sitting duck that IS clearly believes it is. As others have pointed out, western liberalism stands a very good chance of carrying the seeds of its own undoing. And as has also been pointed out many times in the last 25 years as Europe ignored the problem in its midst, Europe should have started listening 40 years ago.
61
The French are making the only smart choice. They've been singled out by ISIS for the attacks of last week and for additional attacks. They've already recovered other weapons and explosives with this policy. And we've read about a woman in a Muslim neighborhood who knew one of the attackers was in her midst but was afraid to report it to the authorities. Who knows if the suicide belt found in the dumpster wasn't put there by someone fearing it would be discovered in their home. In every terrorist attack these killers are hiding in plain sight and in many instances neighbors or friends aren't reporting their suspicions. Hoping things will return to normal is not a strategy.
41
In response to Charlie: "In every terrorist attack these killers are hiding in plain sight and in many instances neighbors or friends aren't reporting their suspicions." I certainly agree with that statement. Everyone needs to be involved and responsible. In the U.S., while we have had the "if you see something...say something" mantra fairly well accepted by most citizens, in some neighborhoods however, we still have the "don't snitch...don't tell" mantra dictating one's response, or lack thereof, to assist proper policing efforts.
1
You have to give credit to the person who threw the suicide belt away. They probably disarmed their own son. I'm sure there are many mothers now, like the woman who slapped some sense into her son in Ferguson, who are having a serious conversation with their teenagers about how not to die.
1
I think it's very easy, from a distance, to opine on concepts like liberty, freedom, government transparency. Meanwhile, the reality on the ground is that they are discovering caches of weapons and suicide vests discarded in the trash. I wonder how the families of the victims feel about ongoing operations to detain/neutralize the suspects. Perhaps they feel some sacrifices of personal privacy are in order to bring justice to those that murdered their loved ones. Maybe we should consider how we'd react in their position. It's very convenient to think in terms of Ivory Tower axioms when you are not living in the midst of that nightmare.
27
I am getting tired of the NY TImes portraying Muslims in France as victims all the time. According to The FIgaro's newspaper, 17% of Jihadists in France come from upper middle class well integrated Muslim families, 64% from Middle class families and 17 % from poor families. Most Jihadists come from families that are not even religious at all. The first generation Muslims usually integrate society well because they want to but their kids feel culturally alienated and not motivated and start attending radical Mosques who preach anti- French and Free Society values ..40% of the Jihadists according to the study are depressed youths ( not unlike teenagers who do mass shootings in the US). The police suicide rate in France is very high because of general lack of support by the general population, abuse and insult, lack of means and consequences when they arrest criminals. Up to now wanna -be Jihadist youths were able to travel to Syria, learn their terrorist trade there and come back to France. Though they posed serious risks to the rest of the population, their rights were deemed more important than those of the French non -Jihadist population. At the Paris airport in particular a lot of Jihad sympathizers have been discovered among the employees. Aren't you glad they did?
52
Maybe because 99% of the Muslim population there weren't involved and wholeheartedly disagree and abhor terrorism. People conflate jihadist statistics with statistics on the entire muslim population. Should police go after suspicious people? Absolutely. But they should also keep in mind you don't burn down the entire barn to extract needles in haystacks. There are smarter ways to work.
No such thing as a reaction any more.
Only overreaction.
Only overreaction.
3
Physician, heal thyself. We have political candidates calling for ID cards based on religion. How close have we come to accepting "Godwin's Law" and the "final solution" as rational discourse? France seems the model of restraint compared to Trump, Carson, and their also-rans.
5
Sorry, guys, but it's absurd to think that freedom can exist without security. You can't have one without the other. The first order of government is to provide for the security of its citizens. The French government obviously failed in this respect on November 13 in Paris.
Until the threat of Islamic terrorism is contained, the decision of the French parliament to authorize a state of emergency for three months is necessary and justified.
Until the threat of Islamic terrorism is contained, the decision of the French parliament to authorize a state of emergency for three months is necessary and justified.
50
Dear Fred of New York,
I agree with your last sentence.
Due process is very important in France, and although our security forces were following those with ties to Syria, Iraq and extremists mosques (they comprised our "S" files), if these individuals did not do anything suspicious for 3 years, security resources were turned toward newer suspects.
Now, in our state of emergency, there is very much something like Homeland Security, with warantless searches. Targeted individuals are those who were already in the "S" files...we are not profiling, or making random searches...these individuals were already suspect.
It's difficult to protect civil liberties and safety at the same time. France has done its best to protect civil liberties, and now, sadly, must be more agressive.
I agree with your last sentence.
Due process is very important in France, and although our security forces were following those with ties to Syria, Iraq and extremists mosques (they comprised our "S" files), if these individuals did not do anything suspicious for 3 years, security resources were turned toward newer suspects.
Now, in our state of emergency, there is very much something like Homeland Security, with warantless searches. Targeted individuals are those who were already in the "S" files...we are not profiling, or making random searches...these individuals were already suspect.
It's difficult to protect civil liberties and safety at the same time. France has done its best to protect civil liberties, and now, sadly, must be more agressive.
1
security and freedom are opposites. freedom means the freedom to fail, not too big to fail
1
"the collaboration of the Vichy regime in World War II, for example"
Is the only history Americans know from the World War II era? I really don't see how Vichy is relevant to present circumstances. Really, not at all.
The reaction of French authorities in the 1960s in the wake of the Algerian uprising would seem to be more germane.
Is the only history Americans know from the World War II era? I really don't see how Vichy is relevant to present circumstances. Really, not at all.
The reaction of French authorities in the 1960s in the wake of the Algerian uprising would seem to be more germane.
40
@ abo
Absolutely! It's refreshing to read a comment from someone who knows what he/she is talking about and remembers history.
I wrote a comment before, not yet published, remembering those police all dressed head to toe in black during my first visit to Paris c. 1969/70. Like those in the photo accompanying this article, you only saw the slit of their eyes. They were terrifying, even to a young tourist with nothing to fear.
WWII is the only history Americans know because it's the last war they "won" since 1945, unless you count the glorious victories over Grenada and Panamá.
Even WWII is in doubt considering that.
1 - It was the Red Army to whom Berlin finally surrendered on 2 May 1945
and
2 - The Bomb Didn’t Beat Japan… Stalin Did, 70 years of nuclear policy based on a lie.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/
Then you have to dig a bit and forget the propaganda to get to this 2nd one.
“There are people so addicted to exaggeration they can't tell the truth without lying.” ~ HENRY WHEELER SHAW a.k.a. JOSH BILLINGS (1818 - 1885) American humorist.
Absolutely! It's refreshing to read a comment from someone who knows what he/she is talking about and remembers history.
I wrote a comment before, not yet published, remembering those police all dressed head to toe in black during my first visit to Paris c. 1969/70. Like those in the photo accompanying this article, you only saw the slit of their eyes. They were terrifying, even to a young tourist with nothing to fear.
WWII is the only history Americans know because it's the last war they "won" since 1945, unless you count the glorious victories over Grenada and Panamá.
Even WWII is in doubt considering that.
1 - It was the Red Army to whom Berlin finally surrendered on 2 May 1945
and
2 - The Bomb Didn’t Beat Japan… Stalin Did, 70 years of nuclear policy based on a lie.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/
Then you have to dig a bit and forget the propaganda to get to this 2nd one.
“There are people so addicted to exaggeration they can't tell the truth without lying.” ~ HENRY WHEELER SHAW a.k.a. JOSH BILLINGS (1818 - 1885) American humorist.
4
For years France got "temporary workers" from Algeria and other former French colonies in North Africa. Guess what? They didn't leave; at the same time they didn't assimilate into French society/customs, but lived in their own neighborhoods. This is perfectly natural, by the way.
@ nhhiker
Whether migrant (temporary) worker or refugee, you don't go to another country and into another culture and demand to live in the manner of the place you left or escaped from, that THEY adapt to YOU. To me, that's the 'social contract' 'expats' sign on to with their decision to emmigrate. "This is perfectly natural."
As a recent immigrant to Canada myself – I prefer to call myself "US refugee", never "expat" – I adapt to the Canadian 'mode' which I've adopted, the reason I left the US in the first place – I like and prefer the way of life here. I don't demand Nova Scotia turn into NY for my pleasure, benefit and comfort.
"When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
~ First attested in medieval Latin, "si fueris Romae, Romano vivito mōre; si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi" (“if you should be in Rome, live in the Roman manner; if you should be elsewhere, live as they do there”); which is attributed to ST. AMBROSE (c. 340 – 397 CE).
Whether migrant (temporary) worker or refugee, you don't go to another country and into another culture and demand to live in the manner of the place you left or escaped from, that THEY adapt to YOU. To me, that's the 'social contract' 'expats' sign on to with their decision to emmigrate. "This is perfectly natural."
As a recent immigrant to Canada myself – I prefer to call myself "US refugee", never "expat" – I adapt to the Canadian 'mode' which I've adopted, the reason I left the US in the first place – I like and prefer the way of life here. I don't demand Nova Scotia turn into NY for my pleasure, benefit and comfort.
"When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
~ First attested in medieval Latin, "si fueris Romae, Romano vivito mōre; si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi" (“if you should be in Rome, live in the Roman manner; if you should be elsewhere, live as they do there”); which is attributed to ST. AMBROSE (c. 340 – 397 CE).
2
What, a society defending itsrelf from radical Islam? That's terrible. I'm sure they would be safer if they emulated Obama, who has forbidden the use of the words "radical Islam."
68
James, radical Islam is exactly the same as radical Christianity or radical any religion. The fact is that when you put the adjective radical in front of any religion then the spirit and letter of the religion has been put aside and you have this radical group of persons behaving irrationally using an excuse of religion. Nowhere, yes nowhere, in Islam is it written that the killing of a person with different beliefs is permitted. In fact, it is clearly said that there is no compulsion in religion. Henceforth, President Obama is correct to not use adjectives that have nothing to do with Islam or any other religion.
1
How much do you want to bet that Obama will turn his back on Hollande and disgrace us by shirking our NATO obligations yet again?
Obama has a "Do Not Offend" list. Muslims are on it. Americans who disagree are not. His refusal to be offensive has, itself, become offensive.
4
Here's a rich combination of bravado and stupidity: “the government’s total determination to fight without mercy against terrorism, and every threat to public order.” It's stupid to fight indiscriminately and without mercy, because it gives French Muslims no choice but to band together, even with the radical elements they may wish to see excised. It's also inhumane.
But we see the same kind of bravado and stupidity in America. It's arguably worse here, because we don't have a million or more Syrian refugees tramping through our land, and yet governors are making political hay amid a terrified populace. So much for standing up to ISIS.
But we see the same kind of bravado and stupidity in America. It's arguably worse here, because we don't have a million or more Syrian refugees tramping through our land, and yet governors are making political hay amid a terrified populace. So much for standing up to ISIS.
8
Apparently I read differently than you do. It is fighting terrorism not indiscriminately. Now since terrorists don't wear uniforms some non-terrorists might be inconvenient. Such is life.
5
Taking away liberties is the start of losing one's democracy. Here in the US many were happy to give up their liberty for safety, but that was an illusion. We are constantly subjected to the fear card by politicians. Thanks to Edward Snowden we know just how much our privacy has been invaded.
Giving up your liberties puts a nation on a slippery slope whereby Police can search your bags as you walk innocently through a train station, etc. That's not democracy. It means the terrorist one because they've taken away your values.
Giving up your liberties puts a nation on a slippery slope whereby Police can search your bags as you walk innocently through a train station, etc. That's not democracy. It means the terrorist one because they've taken away your values.
16
If you don't like the searches don't go into those places where it happens. Pretty simple.
2
A second wave of terror for the French people. One lasted a single night, the other will last three months (or more, if extended by the French Parliament).
11
The people want to desperately return to the peace and calm they enjoyed before the attacks. They will trade their precious freedoms for the illusion of safety and security. Once these powers are given to the state and the police they are rarely given back.
8
Get a grip. France will be fine. It went back to normal after Hebdo and it is much more back to normal than the selected photos the TIMES chooses to show allow you to suppose. This is a propaganda piece, just like all the columns urging Europe to take in every single last migrant who crashed Europe's borders over the last few months. You'll notice those columns have diminished considerably since the attacks.
10
Just got back to our apartment here in Paris and opened the NYT. I don't sense any of the panic or fear described here or even long faces. It is raining so people weren't exactly cheerful. But to me it seems that things are pretty much back to normal. The doom and danger of the American press exaggerate the true situation. I saw edgy people right after that attack but not anymore. All this does is make our relatives back in the States worry about us. I think we are more in danger of becoming a victim of gun violence than we are in danger here. Maybe an article about Paris going about its business as normal would balance this view.
97
Thank you for this report. The TIMES editorial board has a political agenda here, a reflex that any emergency powers are bad and that all the Muslims in Europe are about to be rounded up and sent to concentration camps. The photos of jackbooted and helmeted cops like the one heading up this article are what they want to suggest is the norm - because heaven forbid Europeans should take sensible measures to defend themselves as they wake up and realize they've been asleep at the switch for 25 years.
As far as the TIMES is concerned, the only appropriate response to such an attack is to pretend it didn't happen, pretend the perps were actually rightwing Christians, open all borders and take in another three million Muslim migrants - but close the churches.
As far as the TIMES is concerned, the only appropriate response to such an attack is to pretend it didn't happen, pretend the perps were actually rightwing Christians, open all borders and take in another three million Muslim migrants - but close the churches.
15
This is a good example of how the media and humans work. Sure they are right about France, but don't realize their fear of gun violence in the US is just as overblown by the media as France. Most who are victims of gun violence are criminals and those living in crime ridden areas. Or very late at night.
5
Hhhmm, I wonder if your name were Mustafa Perry, you'd feel quite so sanguine.
The terrorists have a very good grasp of human nature, and they are using that grasp to further their cause at very little cost to them but at great cost and inconvenience to us.
The discarded suicide belt may have been a complete ruse. Some news reports said it did not even have a detonator. Regardless, its presence causes very great concern and disruption as the Paris police speculate about why it was there.
Similarly, the bomb that brought down the Russian jet over Egypt was said to have been concealed in a soda can, a very common everyday item. Now, even the ubiquitous soda can can be dangerous and cause concern.
Similarly, the underwear bomber was probably never intended to bring down the plane. If he had, we would never have know that the explosives were in his underwear. Now, however, we are all subject to more intrusive searches.
The same is true of the shoe bomber. Because of him we now have to take off our shoes.
These sorts of things in a one time context are troubling, but not overwhelming. However, in the aggregate, they can overwhelm us and shake our confidence as we become increasingly concerned about our safety. This is in keeping with the terrorists' taunt that they will make us suffer death from 1000 little cuts.
The discarded suicide belt may have been a complete ruse. Some news reports said it did not even have a detonator. Regardless, its presence causes very great concern and disruption as the Paris police speculate about why it was there.
Similarly, the bomb that brought down the Russian jet over Egypt was said to have been concealed in a soda can, a very common everyday item. Now, even the ubiquitous soda can can be dangerous and cause concern.
Similarly, the underwear bomber was probably never intended to bring down the plane. If he had, we would never have know that the explosives were in his underwear. Now, however, we are all subject to more intrusive searches.
The same is true of the shoe bomber. Because of him we now have to take off our shoes.
These sorts of things in a one time context are troubling, but not overwhelming. However, in the aggregate, they can overwhelm us and shake our confidence as we become increasingly concerned about our safety. This is in keeping with the terrorists' taunt that they will make us suffer death from 1000 little cuts.
20
Not in any way to make light of the tragedy, but from reading this article, especially the part about the place raid on the halal restaurant, it would seem that Casablanca's Captain Louis Renault (Claude Rains) is in charge: "Round up all the usual suspects." Adam Nossiter's reference to Vichy is apt.
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Arnaud Amalric (died 1225) was a Cistercian abbot who took a prominent role in the Albigensian Crusade. He is most remembered for allegedly advising a soldier, who was worrying about killing orthodox Catholics along with the heretics during the sack of the Cathar stronghold of Béziers, "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius". ("Kill them. For the Lord knows those that are His own.")
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@ Peter Stamelman
Adam Nossiter's reference to Vichy is totally INEPT and the situations in WWII and now are not at all comparable.
The Vichy was a puppet government of FRENCH traitors set up by the Nazis after conquering France to suppress the French resistance. Pray tell how this relates to the present day French police and security forces cracking down on foreign terrorists living in France who have just committed a heinous atrocity, the second of the year, in Paris, its capital.
"My way of joking ('making light') is to tell the truth. It's the funniest joke in the world." ~ GEORGE BERNARD SHAW
Adam Nossiter's reference to Vichy is totally INEPT and the situations in WWII and now are not at all comparable.
The Vichy was a puppet government of FRENCH traitors set up by the Nazis after conquering France to suppress the French resistance. Pray tell how this relates to the present day French police and security forces cracking down on foreign terrorists living in France who have just committed a heinous atrocity, the second of the year, in Paris, its capital.
"My way of joking ('making light') is to tell the truth. It's the funniest joke in the world." ~ GEORGE BERNARD SHAW
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Of course there will be abuses. This happens when people are afraid. I don't know what the answer is but finding a person with a rocket launcher is certainly suspicious. In a country where possession of a firearm is difficult,owning a rocket launcher is of concern.
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"of concern", that is your line. When fascism comes to town, you must be willing to weed it out and burn the earth so that it cannot get a foothold. Anything less will be WWIII. Sorry, but equivocators will be first to go. WWII is relevant, after all.
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The "abuse" was the murder of 130 people out for a night on the town on Friday the 13th.
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