I don't understand why the author did not apologize. Having been to Istanbul and thoroughly enjoyed the experience, I nevertheless understood one thing quite clearly while I was there--nothing would ever be accomplished by giving the finger and/or yelling. As the author's teacher made clear, it's resourcefulness and fostering personal relationships rather than falling back on a supposed moral right imported from another culture that will open doors.
2
I lived in Istanbul in 2006. One day at the local post office in the small town nearest the school where I was teaching (outside of the city on the Asian side), I waited in line to mail some letters, postcards, etc. I had only been in there 3-4 times all year, but when I dropped off my mail, the postal employee got very excited and ran into the back. He came back with a postcard that I had mailed to my sister several months earlier, apparently not realizing that I had her address wrong (she was in college & had moved within the campus). My postcard had gone from this post office, to several bigger ones in Turkey, across the Atlantic to the US, through several post offices to St. Louis, and had then made its way slowly back... all without a return address! And then it sat in the little post office until one day I dropped off some letters and the employee recognized my handwriting or name or something. Amazing.
11
The reason the NYT didn't pick up on the currency issue and how old the article is, is because they're too busy installing new video advertisements that we, the loyal readers of its website, have to click out of so that we can actually read an article.
7
This is very similar to the kind of customer "service" I got in Malaysia in the late 1980s. It wasn't as Kafkaesque or byzantine, but the guy behind the counter was just as hateful.
1
the more things change the more they stay the same...the outrage is better known as "embarrassment". The truth hurts but it's still the truth, then and now. It's a backward, duplicitous society, then and now, no matter what the current currency rate is...
4
Yes, try picking up a parcel in Naples, Italy in the 70s. My mom sent me peanut butter & popcorn!
2
I lived in Italy 2010-2011 -- it's still like that! My last post experience there was not being able to ship university books back home in the U.S. TO MYSELF because I didn't have an Italian residence permit. (Which I never bothered finish applying for because of the onerous number of steps, the final step having been reached just a few months before I was leaving anyway.) I had to have an Italian friend come with me and have him 'mail it to me.' Friends living in Morocco say it's even worse there, and that often the postal workers exact bribes in order to "release" your package to them. Not sure why so many loops are needed for postal services - the madness of fascist cultures or cultures formerly fascistic???
3
The question is begging to be asked, regardless the universally experienced cultural differences in everyday transactions that can be interesting: why are you publishing something decades old (25million import tax)?
1
I was waiting where this story will end. If I were you, Theron, before writing to your mom, I would have gone to a school/college supplies store, bought larger cardstock -- I am sure it is available in any Metro school supply stores in Turkey, and cut it into something that comes close to 3" x 5".
I am surprised that you never thought of improvising., something that anyone would do in your circumstances, instead of getting this shipped from the "States." -- Kollengode S Venkataraman
I am surprised that you never thought of improvising., something that anyone would do in your circumstances, instead of getting this shipped from the "States." -- Kollengode S Venkataraman
1
I don't think that's the point of the story. To me it's refreshing to read a travel story that isn't icky-PC in starry-eyed platitudes. Leave that for Anthony Bourdain and his food obsession.
5
This is true. improvising would help. But this is not really the point of the story in the article. Is it?
2
Years ago I was a JYA student in Beirut; we did Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc and often ran into bureaucratic nonsense from our point of view. At the boarder, train station, post office. However one of us, a lady, could cry at the drop of a hat. When we realized everything would be smoothed over if she started crying, we used the ruse often. Seems the officials didn't want to be embarrsed in public. Our travels improved immensely.
6
This story is rather unremarkable and has entitlement written all over it. Boy encounters bureaucracy for first time at tender age of 22? and considers himself protagonist of epic injustice.
1) I experienced similar runarounds in Manhattan after the closing and rezoning of various P.O.'s circa 2010
2) Far worse corruption and bullying occurs than the slight bruising of egos and some pocket change; doesn't make it right, but the author takes a pretty egotistical outlook
3) The fact that the author has his mother send a few index cards to turkey because he can't find them or improvise/problem-solve epitomizes everything wrong with his attitude: the self-absorbed, entitled individual with complete lack of respect or interest in learning about/understanding the country he is visiting. Like his tutor says, he should've just asked.
Sorry for the scathing critique. I'm sure the author is a fine person. Just didn't feel this one was "Fit to print."
1) I experienced similar runarounds in Manhattan after the closing and rezoning of various P.O.'s circa 2010
2) Far worse corruption and bullying occurs than the slight bruising of egos and some pocket change; doesn't make it right, but the author takes a pretty egotistical outlook
3) The fact that the author has his mother send a few index cards to turkey because he can't find them or improvise/problem-solve epitomizes everything wrong with his attitude: the self-absorbed, entitled individual with complete lack of respect or interest in learning about/understanding the country he is visiting. Like his tutor says, he should've just asked.
Sorry for the scathing critique. I'm sure the author is a fine person. Just didn't feel this one was "Fit to print."
6
I lived in Istanbul from 1987-1994, and received many packages - this is nonsense, as is the idea of asking anyone to mail you index cards . Things like that were and are easy to find. The writer is not very resourceful, and indeed the event took place over a decade ago so why is it being printed now as if it were current?
6
Amusing story - reminded me of many aspects of trying to get things done in India, where I grew up. When I hear Americans complain about bureaucracy and red tape for various government services, I have to remind them that for the most part the U.S. is an amazing, user-friendly dream compared to many parts of the world. But it's still tragic that so many hours of people's lives around the world (including the U.S.) are needless wasted. These are the kinds of things we can actually solve!
9
I agree. I phoned the IRS not long ago because they had withheld taxes from an overseas (where I worked) paycheck when they weren't supposed to. A polite ten or 15-minute phone call took care of the problem. Try that in Europe, let alone Pakistan or Turkey.
6
The scene described happened at least 10 years ago (the exchange rate is a give-away), but to the reader unaware of this detail, the piece gives the impression that that's how things stand in Istanbul today, and it's certainly not the case. Bad and good experiences happen to people visiting or living abroad, but let's at least say when things happen . . .
5
I planned a visit to Turkey last spring, following a trip to Australia. Not wanting to carry the Turkish guide books and maps through Australia, I mailed them to my hotel in Istanbul.
When I arrived at the hotel I asked them if they had a package for me. Indeed, they had a mangled envelope which appeared to have been dragged through the most of the streets of Istanbul, then cobbled back together with used Scotch tape. After handing that to me the clerk said, very apologetically, that I owed an additional ten lira. "It is the charge for delivery by the post office, " she said.
It could have been worse. They could have sent me to Davutpasa.
When I arrived at the hotel I asked them if they had a package for me. Indeed, they had a mangled envelope which appeared to have been dragged through the most of the streets of Istanbul, then cobbled back together with used Scotch tape. After handing that to me the clerk said, very apologetically, that I owed an additional ten lira. "It is the charge for delivery by the post office, " she said.
It could have been worse. They could have sent me to Davutpasa.
5
I lived in Mexico. The same bureaucratic runaround in a nepotistic organization. It is why I just plain avoid Third World countries now. There are so many other places to go in this world where the government and businesses work. Who needs the aggravation? I sure don't.
There are reasons so many people emigrate from Third World countries to modern, western democratic states and this is one of them.
There are reasons so many people emigrate from Third World countries to modern, western democratic states and this is one of them.
5
Funny, my brother, who lives in Norway, describes nearly the same thing. He said that if you want to drive a Norwegian mad, mail them a package with a brick in it.
But really, you shouldn't have flipped off the Post Office. I wouldn't do that even here, no matter how frustrated I got. The system may be awful, but the people working there are just doing their jobs.
But really, you shouldn't have flipped off the Post Office. I wouldn't do that even here, no matter how frustrated I got. The system may be awful, but the people working there are just doing their jobs.
5
Now these days anyting bad you had to say about Turkiye they will publish without changing a dot. Millions used 10 years ago in Turkish currency yes I admit Just like any other western governmental organizations there is lot of unnecessary burocracy if you didnt want to go trough all the red tapes why didnt you ask your mom to ups it or fedex it? Oh I know why it would be expensive right?? Well there is a price for every service
2
I enjoyed the story, and can relate to the theme of experiencing unexpected bureaucratic frustrations in different parts of the world, or locally. From reader comments about the clearly outdated currency references, though, it seems that Mr. Patterson should have given the year/era that his story took place.
This is great. As an American having lived in Mexico for the better part of 7 years, I am familiar with this type of frustration. But I find comfort (joking) when I think conversely of the absurdity foreigners must find in the differences when they come to the US.
10
Are you for real Times? Last time millions were used in Turkey was 10 years ago so obviously this "thing" was experienced at least that long ago. But in nowhere in this article it mentions the timeline so anyone who reads this will assume this is a recent experience. This is ridicilous but is not a surprise in any way seeing how you do actual news anyway. Shame.
20
Indeed, didn't expect NYT to publish such story, which is at least a decade old. Having roamed the streets of Istanbul 2 months ago, I cannot recall the scenery described in this post. Sounded more like a Greece or Italy
1
Great story. Theron Patterson - what's your opinion? Should Western Europe admit Turkey to the EU?
4
stay away from fallen empires
1
I don't understand why a story from early 2000's or the 90's is published now. The 25 Million Lira was equal to $15 dollars long long time ago.
Your story of yours could be true but I know the system has been updated so much that I don't think it happens today.
I have experienced that similar difficulties - much worse of them happens in New York City.
Have you dealt with the department of buildings - the so called DOB of Brooklyn. Or the department of finance offices in Brooklyn.
I have spent days, hours, got humiliated, and pushed back months and months and years . Lost a lot of money due to an officers ignorance. I hope New York Times makes a story about this as well. And in current day.
I have to say - I am Turkish origin but lived most of my life in the states. I have experienced that I used get a driver license in 1 hour - total. Right now in New York - how many days or months.
I remember it was hell doing stuff in Turkey, times changed. It's much more easier today.
I remember it was easy doing stuff in the US, times changed. It's much more harder these days.
Your story of yours could be true but I know the system has been updated so much that I don't think it happens today.
I have experienced that similar difficulties - much worse of them happens in New York City.
Have you dealt with the department of buildings - the so called DOB of Brooklyn. Or the department of finance offices in Brooklyn.
I have spent days, hours, got humiliated, and pushed back months and months and years . Lost a lot of money due to an officers ignorance. I hope New York Times makes a story about this as well. And in current day.
I have to say - I am Turkish origin but lived most of my life in the states. I have experienced that I used get a driver license in 1 hour - total. Right now in New York - how many days or months.
I remember it was hell doing stuff in Turkey, times changed. It's much more easier today.
I remember it was easy doing stuff in the US, times changed. It's much more harder these days.
37
If Turkey is so great why not go back there?
1
I can personally assure Mehmet and others claiming that PTT must have been modernized over the years that stories like this happen to Istanbul expats *all the time*. My wife and I spent the better part of an hour arguing with our local PTT about whether there is an international law against sending chocolate in the mail less than a year ago, and got complete indifference from a manager when I pulled up the official policy on my phone. (We suspect that the poor international mail clerk just didn't like the fact that we interrupted the game of solitaire he was playing on his ancient computer and was looking for an excuse to avoid dealing with foreigners.) Ditto trying to pay the fee to register a foreign cell phone... there is a reason that Istanbul has been flooded with DHL and FedEx locations as well as a ton of regional couriers in recent years. But, in fairness to PTT, their branches are simply a microcosm of modern Turkey - a place where globalization and technology have evolved far, far faster than cultural and social norms.
There are many other examples. Like the author, I was intimidated and yelled at by a Turkish cop just because I asked him in English to stop stroking his firearm in the IV petitioner waiting area in front of our embassy - not unreasonable, right? Turkish officials are totally unable and/or unwilling to practice civility in front of foreigners struggling with stressful situations - everything is a game of saving face and holding their ground.
There are many other examples. Like the author, I was intimidated and yelled at by a Turkish cop just because I asked him in English to stop stroking his firearm in the IV petitioner waiting area in front of our embassy - not unreasonable, right? Turkish officials are totally unable and/or unwilling to practice civility in front of foreigners struggling with stressful situations - everything is a game of saving face and holding their ground.
7
great article
regardless of the time in which it took place, this is by in large how turkey still is. a bureaucratic nightmare at best. people take pride in themselves, but not in the services they provide.
I can recall from my own personal experience when my grandma send me a package of home made cookies from the US only for the customs to confiscate it. they called regarding the package saying it would cost 50 euros to pick it up. I told them they could keep my grandmas cookies and that they should enjoy it. 20minutes later they called back and brought down the price to 20euros. i told them it wasn't that good and an Afiyet Olsun.
I'm an architect working in istanbul for the past 4years, calling it quits now because of this bs attitude and practice of "do the least to gain the most." we were recently asked to bribe the municipality 500k usd for a 500k budget private house project, and that just pushed us over the line.
i have lived and worked in China and India, and thought I was trained for any adversity, but the extra dimension of pride here has made it ever so difficult to attain anything. My Japanese friend who manages a Toyota factory in Turkey was taught the first day to never criticize a Turk in public. As he will take that grudge to his grave. There is good reason the turkish "evil eye" charm is so ubiquitous here
i really should've taken the cue when they asked for 50 euros for my grandmas cookies. things have not gotten better
regardless of the time in which it took place, this is by in large how turkey still is. a bureaucratic nightmare at best. people take pride in themselves, but not in the services they provide.
I can recall from my own personal experience when my grandma send me a package of home made cookies from the US only for the customs to confiscate it. they called regarding the package saying it would cost 50 euros to pick it up. I told them they could keep my grandmas cookies and that they should enjoy it. 20minutes later they called back and brought down the price to 20euros. i told them it wasn't that good and an Afiyet Olsun.
I'm an architect working in istanbul for the past 4years, calling it quits now because of this bs attitude and practice of "do the least to gain the most." we were recently asked to bribe the municipality 500k usd for a 500k budget private house project, and that just pushed us over the line.
i have lived and worked in China and India, and thought I was trained for any adversity, but the extra dimension of pride here has made it ever so difficult to attain anything. My Japanese friend who manages a Toyota factory in Turkey was taught the first day to never criticize a Turk in public. As he will take that grudge to his grave. There is good reason the turkish "evil eye" charm is so ubiquitous here
i really should've taken the cue when they asked for 50 euros for my grandmas cookies. things have not gotten better
12
This is exactly what life is like for an expat living in Turkey. Lovely story.
19
Actually it is not. My family recently bought a property in Istanbul and we found their admin affairs much friendlier than elsewhere in Europe, especially in Greece, Italy and France, which were our initial choice.
4