"Research tells us that women are compelled to level the playing field by any means necessary to make sure we have access to the best genetic material, but since these are not real concerns in our modern lives..."
Huh? Does anyone else think it is true that there is something about our modern lives that exempts us (men or women) from evolutionary pressures?
Huh? Does anyone else think it is true that there is something about our modern lives that exempts us (men or women) from evolutionary pressures?
32
I strongly disagree with the idea that this phenomenon is equally prevalent amongst both men and women.
I have never seen men turn on members of their friend group, but I have seen it countless times amongst women. And I was never, as some have mentioned here, one of those girls near the top of the social totem pole, striving for popularity and for boys to like me. I was right in the middle, and I actually think the middle tier is where the greatest cattiness lies. At the top, beautiful girls aren't as threatened by competitors. At the bottom, the geeky/less attractive girls don't have a lot of problems pairing up with geeky/less attractive men. But the middle group is big and competitive.
My freshman year of college, our group of new girlfriends spent the year befriending and then turning on, one of the girls in the group. We all bonded over our new mutual dislike of the now-outsider. My sophomore year, alas it was my turn to be the unlucky sacrificial lamb. It was devastating. I have seen this played out in the lives of numerous female college freshman; they are decimated when their once best friends absolutely turn on them.
And again, I have never once witnessed this dynamic amongst men.
I have never seen men turn on members of their friend group, but I have seen it countless times amongst women. And I was never, as some have mentioned here, one of those girls near the top of the social totem pole, striving for popularity and for boys to like me. I was right in the middle, and I actually think the middle tier is where the greatest cattiness lies. At the top, beautiful girls aren't as threatened by competitors. At the bottom, the geeky/less attractive girls don't have a lot of problems pairing up with geeky/less attractive men. But the middle group is big and competitive.
My freshman year of college, our group of new girlfriends spent the year befriending and then turning on, one of the girls in the group. We all bonded over our new mutual dislike of the now-outsider. My sophomore year, alas it was my turn to be the unlucky sacrificial lamb. It was devastating. I have seen this played out in the lives of numerous female college freshman; they are decimated when their once best friends absolutely turn on them.
And again, I have never once witnessed this dynamic amongst men.
65
Women can be nasty. Men can be nasty. I think where women take the lead is in overanalyzing it. Men just shrug it off. Further, I'm amused by the author's presumption: she was overly and negatively competitive, therefore this is a subject that must be studied! It's the "I am this way, so everybody is."
Not very scientific. I'll pass, thanks.
Not very scientific. I'll pass, thanks.
72
True, after all those years of Gloria Steinems and now Amy Shumers, there is no real woman's liberation. It is a sad commentary that we are still stuck in Victorian times where women prized themselves according to the eligible men they could ensnare. Women are their own worst enemies and this starts of young. Early on it is about who develops the two sprouting buds, the best hair and flawless skin who gets the boys' looks in the locker-rooms and everywhere else. Later it is about who asks you for the prom, who is kissed first. In college it is about getting hooked to the best guy there is. Later it is about your fist live-in relationship and getting married to the most eligible, handsome rich man. At work, it is all about getting your Boss's eye if he is a man. But you dread if your Boss is a woman for you recoil from the scorn, disdain and the dismissal look. I should'nt generalize like this. But the fact is, there are very few Beyoncés and Taylor Swifts and I am sure they evolved, having gone through the stages to their present heights where they feel, they can afford to be generous. Sorry we bring this upon ourselves. Don't blame Men. My daughter is five.I'll try to change her track. But who knows what's in store for her when her raging hormones and peer-pressure take over.
21
I'm female and all my closest friends are men. They aren't emotional mine fields you have to carefully navigate with diplomacy. They genuinely rejoice when I have some little victory, rather than comparing themselves, putting themselves down, having to be endlessly reassured. You don't have to do the little self-put-down dances, like:
"I'm so fat."
"NO, you're perfect. I'm so fat."
"NO, you're perfect. I'm so fat."
Et cetera.
Men I know like to talk about interesting things, like science, philosophy, politics, news stories. They thrive on intellectual challenges, rather than fearing or punishing you for them. You can be frank. You can joke around without fear of offending them. You can dress any way you want without competitiveness. There's no cattiness or passive aggression. You can just be yourself.
If you ask me, friendships with men are much simpler, easier and more genuine. Yet so many fine and interesting men lack friends! Just be friendly and they're grateful for it. I highly recommend their companionship.
"I'm so fat."
"NO, you're perfect. I'm so fat."
"NO, you're perfect. I'm so fat."
Et cetera.
Men I know like to talk about interesting things, like science, philosophy, politics, news stories. They thrive on intellectual challenges, rather than fearing or punishing you for them. You can be frank. You can joke around without fear of offending them. You can dress any way you want without competitiveness. There's no cattiness or passive aggression. You can just be yourself.
If you ask me, friendships with men are much simpler, easier and more genuine. Yet so many fine and interesting men lack friends! Just be friendly and they're grateful for it. I highly recommend their companionship.
78
I have had the experience of both men AND women being competitive and cruel. I don't see one gender being kinder or more cruel than the other. Some people are just miserable, cruel, and/or negative individuals. Their competition is based on poor self-esteem, yet even with all my understanding, being around them can be hell on earth.
35
"Research tells us that women are compelled to level the playing field by any means necessary to make sure we have access to the best genetic material"
Does "genetic material" there mean men? Can you imagine the brouhaha that would erupt if guys could women "genetic material"? ("That's a nice piece of genetic material")
Does "genetic material" there mean men? Can you imagine the brouhaha that would erupt if guys could women "genetic material"? ("That's a nice piece of genetic material")
8
This piece describes well a universal human phenomenon and it applies equally to men and women whether they compete within or across gender lines.
13
The premise of this article is really irksome.....it's not only women that are competitive. It's human nature. Men and women compete differently. People who put each other down because of superficial things like looks or money, haven't ever gone beyond junior high school in their thinking. Basically it shows a lack of self esteem---making yourself better by making someone else look worse. I wouldn't be able to survive without my women friends, none of us find any pleasure in cattiness. The ones who do, seek each other out. It certainly cant be across the board for the entire female race and the same goes for men.
23
Why is it that competition among men or boys is often portrayed as positive and healthy, while competition between women or girls is almost always described negatively?
Both men and women can be competitive. It's normal and human if not always "nice", and some people of both genders take it to extremes. I don't see a valid reason to demonize a particular behavior in one gender and not the other.
Both men and women can be competitive. It's normal and human if not always "nice", and some people of both genders take it to extremes. I don't see a valid reason to demonize a particular behavior in one gender and not the other.
146
You write that 'research' has told us that having access to "the best genetic material" helps explain the behavior you describe, and then you go on to write "but since these are not real concerns in our modern lives."
Since when did evolution stop working? Do you really think that in our "modern world," that the evolutionary process has taken a hiatus? You can try to discount the feelings that you write about as some kind of insecure, anachronistic, adolescent urges - or you can acknowledge that competition within species has and will always be there. Not everyone will be successful in passing along their genes. You can see this across cultures, genders and ages.
Let us not get too sentimental about the human 'condition.' If you really believe in evolution, than what we may hold so dear today is really just a fleeting moment (a flash in the pan, really) on the road to something else.
I realize that this may not seem fair, equitable, or nice. But who ever said that nature was kind.
Since when did evolution stop working? Do you really think that in our "modern world," that the evolutionary process has taken a hiatus? You can try to discount the feelings that you write about as some kind of insecure, anachronistic, adolescent urges - or you can acknowledge that competition within species has and will always be there. Not everyone will be successful in passing along their genes. You can see this across cultures, genders and ages.
Let us not get too sentimental about the human 'condition.' If you really believe in evolution, than what we may hold so dear today is really just a fleeting moment (a flash in the pan, really) on the road to something else.
I realize that this may not seem fair, equitable, or nice. But who ever said that nature was kind.
17
"Research tells us that women are compelled to level the playing field by any means necessary to make sure we have access to the best genetic material, but since these are not real concerns in our modern lives,.." Really? When did that happen? I'll have to respectfully disagree.
9
I love women. I think they are perfect. Perfect mothers, wives, daughters and friends.
5
I was a tomboy growing up and mostly didn't understand those girl games. I saw some of it, but for the most part it didn't dominate the dynamics of my group of friends (who are still friends 45 years later).
I think if you had parents that were able to instill you with a strong sense of self worth you were ridiculously lucky. I was a lucky one. I don't look outside of myself for value.
I think if you had parents that were able to instill you with a strong sense of self worth you were ridiculously lucky. I was a lucky one. I don't look outside of myself for value.
20
Insiders vs. outsiders, clans in or out, marginalization. A meme that occupies us all. Are women who compete indirectly “catty,” or is this behavior socially prescribed (i.e., women do not physically attack, not even on Star Trek episodes)? In today’s world, women in combat is a mega-issue. Our entertainment and social constructs prescribe the behavior we exhibit except for those exceptional few—suffragettes, women physicians, female ministers—who take the lead, and the astounding ostracism, necessary for change. The same is true, I believe, for men in their social milieu.
2
It all boils down to self esteem. Any woman that behave this way is most likely insecure.
I guess that means the majority of women are indeed, insecure.
I guess that means the majority of women are indeed, insecure.
13
The problem may be American culture more than 'female culture'--as many other countries don't have the mean girl clique issues that the US experiences. People aren't allowed to disagree or conflict in opinion without instigating a fight or power struggle. Take a look at our political culture--there is no reasonable disagreement only winners and losers.
To some extent gender roles are also to blame. Boys are allowed to fight both verbally and physically and girls are allowed neither as they should all be friends and should always be nice (ladies are helpers not debtors)--therefore only a bad girl would disagree so fighting has to take place in some other more subversive form.
Without an explicit disagreement there can be no path to repair since there is no discussion of the actual issue. This is why passive aggressive styles of conflict are so toxic and why so many couples counselors are employed.
To some extent gender roles are also to blame. Boys are allowed to fight both verbally and physically and girls are allowed neither as they should all be friends and should always be nice (ladies are helpers not debtors)--therefore only a bad girl would disagree so fighting has to take place in some other more subversive form.
Without an explicit disagreement there can be no path to repair since there is no discussion of the actual issue. This is why passive aggressive styles of conflict are so toxic and why so many couples counselors are employed.
92
This is an essay about girls in elementary school, middle school and high school, with a coda about very young women in their twenties. Why is the headline about "women"?
As an adult woman, whose life has been immersed in working, volunteering, and raising children with the mutual support of friends, I don't experience the dynamics described in this article.
Generally, I love working collaboratively with other women on projects. Sometimes I am jealous of the skills or recognition another person has -- but that other person can be of any gender or any age. Through observation and conversation, I've learned that my women friends and acquaintances feel the same.
As an adult woman, whose life has been immersed in working, volunteering, and raising children with the mutual support of friends, I don't experience the dynamics described in this article.
Generally, I love working collaboratively with other women on projects. Sometimes I am jealous of the skills or recognition another person has -- but that other person can be of any gender or any age. Through observation and conversation, I've learned that my women friends and acquaintances feel the same.
127
Men prove their manhood all the time. that involves competition, carpison, undermining, dominance, etc. If feminism is designed to give women all and equal opportunity to men, why would women not seek to prove their competitive etc. qualities all the time? It makes perfect sense that they should...unless there is a fundamental difference between men and women. If there isn't, well, there's nothing to complain about, is there?
7
This kind of stuff does need to be looked at and being aware of it is helpful. I think too it can run in families. My family happened to have a grandmother who loved her sisters, her mom, kept eye rolling to a minimum about others, and my mom was also a champion of girls. So I was surprised to eventually have a couple of female in-laws who were completely competitive with all female family members. My feeling was that they learned it from having competitive moms. So weird to me.
17
Women are not socialized to be competitive, but rather, to be and act "nice" and get along with others. Competitiveness is itself not a negative trair, unless you are socialized to believe so. Gender norms plus race and class shape how women respond to competition. It sure sounds nice to say we women are only competing with ourselves but what does this mean in regard to men, other cultures (not only U.S.), and regional/social contexts? I write about women, wirk, and competition, give this link a click.
http://www.ethnography.com/2015/02/mother-hens-and-nice-girls-how-gender...
http://www.ethnography.com/2015/02/mother-hens-and-nice-girls-how-gender...
8
Wide ranging generalizations about men and women do not seem to be useful as behavior falls along a continuum. Gordon seems to have started out confused like most of us but she has remained confused by not perceiving that actual women and men can behave very differently from one another. I guess it is useful to examine herd mentality if that is where you are at. At the same time many people of both sexes suffer arrested development failing to move on from later adolescence into adulthood. Being catty and playing for oneupmanship is immature and reveals an individual has major a major blind spot in their self perception.
Though the truth of the matter is that many women and men rise above mass trends and via their own agency, intelligence, and courage lead self directed lives outside the biological imperatives so many people try to attribute to and then superimpose on us.
Though the truth of the matter is that many women and men rise above mass trends and via their own agency, intelligence, and courage lead self directed lives outside the biological imperatives so many people try to attribute to and then superimpose on us.
11
The power to judge and to decide who is in and who is out is insidious and starts so early in childhood. Value people for who they are, and celebrate their differences. Where is Mr. Roger's neighborhood?!
6
Happy and secure women do not behave this way so maybe the question should be Why are many American women unhappy and insecure ?
My own belief is that Society is very hard on women, lots of people have lots of opinions about how women should and should not act. For instance to call a man a Bad Father may sound like a guy is a disappointment but to call a woman a "Bad Mother" is totally devastating.
My own belief is that Society is very hard on women, lots of people have lots of opinions about how women should and should not act. For instance to call a man a Bad Father may sound like a guy is a disappointment but to call a woman a "Bad Mother" is totally devastating.
23
A woman friend of mine knows all too well about this phenomenon. She even has a name for it -- "The Basket of Crabs Syndrome."
Freshly-caught crabs rarely escape from an open basket. Why? Because as soon as one begins to crawl out the others pull it back down.
Similarly, my friend began realizing that her circle of supposed best-female-friends were subtly discouraging to one another. When one member got a great new job or promotion, instead of expressing joy the other women would say things like, "Oh, now they'll work you to death, you won't have a life!" Or if one met a terrific new guy, the others would respond with, "Well, good luck with that, you know how men today are about commitment!"
Personally, I've noticed something very similar with male friends I've known for years, especially the ones who 1) never matured emotionally past high school, or 2) had strong-willed brothers and never outgrew an ingrained sense of sibling rivalry.
Male "crabs," too, can be quick to express envy and competitiveness by trying to pull friends back down into the old "basket."
Freshly-caught crabs rarely escape from an open basket. Why? Because as soon as one begins to crawl out the others pull it back down.
Similarly, my friend began realizing that her circle of supposed best-female-friends were subtly discouraging to one another. When one member got a great new job or promotion, instead of expressing joy the other women would say things like, "Oh, now they'll work you to death, you won't have a life!" Or if one met a terrific new guy, the others would respond with, "Well, good luck with that, you know how men today are about commitment!"
Personally, I've noticed something very similar with male friends I've known for years, especially the ones who 1) never matured emotionally past high school, or 2) had strong-willed brothers and never outgrew an ingrained sense of sibling rivalry.
Male "crabs," too, can be quick to express envy and competitiveness by trying to pull friends back down into the old "basket."
148
Do you think males don't do this also? They are not as verbal, perhaps, but I don't see many males who have a best friend as they age into adults. My grandfather had a bunch of friends and no friend. My father was the same. The man he felt closest too lived a 5 hour flight away. They became close friends in their late 20s, moved away from each other in their early 30s, and after that perhaps saw each other once every 5-6 years. Yes they talked on the phone every few month but that was it.
I noticed this because I'm an outsider, an observer. I have so seldom witnessed best friends who are not married to each other as adult that I doubt it exists beyond a fraction of a percentage point at any time.
When my mother was 67 her best friend died and Mom was heartbroken. It never dawned on her that they hadn't seen each other in 14 years nor did they ever talk more than 10 minutes every other month.
I've had friends but I have never had a best friend. The closest friend I've ever had is my husband. I'm pretty typical. I know several people who think of me as their friend. All that means is we are a group of people who share common interests. The most accurate word to describe us is 'comrade' and not in the exclusive political sense. It's not that we don't trust other women or men; we simply don't consider them for long enough to form an opinion of them. In truth, it's the case for nearly everyone. We arrive as adult by realizing just how rare a friend is.
I noticed this because I'm an outsider, an observer. I have so seldom witnessed best friends who are not married to each other as adult that I doubt it exists beyond a fraction of a percentage point at any time.
When my mother was 67 her best friend died and Mom was heartbroken. It never dawned on her that they hadn't seen each other in 14 years nor did they ever talk more than 10 minutes every other month.
I've had friends but I have never had a best friend. The closest friend I've ever had is my husband. I'm pretty typical. I know several people who think of me as their friend. All that means is we are a group of people who share common interests. The most accurate word to describe us is 'comrade' and not in the exclusive political sense. It's not that we don't trust other women or men; we simply don't consider them for long enough to form an opinion of them. In truth, it's the case for nearly everyone. We arrive as adult by realizing just how rare a friend is.
6
Where does this woman get the idea that competition for the best genetic material is not a real concern in our modern world?????
5
Isn't competition of various sorts normal human behavior? And aren't women normal human beings (The answer is yes, for anyone tempted to be snarky)? Why wouldn't they (we--even men need to start thinking of women as "we" most of the time)? Of course social realities will tend to direct competitive feelings to certain paths, but I can't imagine a world with no competition in it unless our species were to undergo some serious further evolution.
1
Next week will we see a follow up article about "why men compete with each other"? No? I'm pretty sure that with men this question would be considered too fundamental to their human nature to be reduced into one (silly, patronizing) essay. Don't the rest of us deserve the same respect?
Or how about this question: why SHOULDN'T women compete with each other, or with anyone they choose? Competitiveness drives ambition, and ambition is the path to excellence. Teaching girls not to be competitive is like modern day foot-binding and stupid essays like this one perpetuate it.
Or how about this question: why SHOULDN'T women compete with each other, or with anyone they choose? Competitiveness drives ambition, and ambition is the path to excellence. Teaching girls not to be competitive is like modern day foot-binding and stupid essays like this one perpetuate it.
8
Geez seriously. Ever been around a nursery school class? Girls start being mean mighty early. Some of them grow out of it; many don't. Puberty makes it worse but isn't the trigger. Being female is...
Don't blame it on American culture. I lived in a south Asian country for a number of years; worked, married and eventually founded a women's center there. Almost without exception, women I became friends with told me they had never before experienced a truly supportive friendship with another woman. Even the women closest to them outside of their immediate families--aunts and female cousins--transformed from affectionate to monstrous once the relationship was altered by kinship marriage and a cousin became a sister-in-law; a niece a daughter-in-law.
All throughout my school years in NY, girls were the worst bullies. And in the world of work, I'd take a retrograde male over a modern woman boss any day. The first is just a Neanderthal but the second is a multi-talented torturer...
Nevertheless, the most supportive people in my life have been other women. But each of them was a uniquely generous human being. It's rare to have friends like that.
Don't blame it on American culture. I lived in a south Asian country for a number of years; worked, married and eventually founded a women's center there. Almost without exception, women I became friends with told me they had never before experienced a truly supportive friendship with another woman. Even the women closest to them outside of their immediate families--aunts and female cousins--transformed from affectionate to monstrous once the relationship was altered by kinship marriage and a cousin became a sister-in-law; a niece a daughter-in-law.
All throughout my school years in NY, girls were the worst bullies. And in the world of work, I'd take a retrograde male over a modern woman boss any day. The first is just a Neanderthal but the second is a multi-talented torturer...
Nevertheless, the most supportive people in my life have been other women. But each of them was a uniquely generous human being. It's rare to have friends like that.
19
I do not see this at all in my sister's daughters, who are now age 18 and 20 something - with the exception of one daughter, who found her friends had changed in high school when they all had boyfriends and she did not. But she later formed her posse of girlfriends in college and they adore each other, simple as that. The other daughter had the same group of girlfriends until college, camp friends, and now college friends - granted, she is a delightful, friendly, sweet young woman, but she can't be the only one! (I envy her....which is probably why I never had friends like hers.)
7
Greetings from the pits of high school!
It's really spectacular to work in a group and have fellow class mates (girls) rolling there eyes at you and treating you degradingly when in the last moment, you were walking them through how to give their portion of a presentation as they asked for your help. I find it really annoying, but I avoid taking it on, if at all possible.
My solution to all of this madness is to have actual friends. I find myself extraordinarily lucky to have three people who call me their best friend (2 females, and a male), and with whom I experience mutual respect and care. I don't make myself into anything else than who I am. Clearly, reading the NY Times is not exactly normal teenage behavior (at least in the eyes of those perceived to be popular), and that's fine. I have a group of people behind me who genuinely accept me (including me), so my self worth isn't defined by clique-y standards. My friends and I spend our lunches together grinning and laughing, and I think others (especially other girls) see that and are jealous of our friendship, which probably spurred on the eye-rolling from the popular girl in my group. And that's ok, because ultimately I have better things to deal with than worrying about her. :-)
It's really spectacular to work in a group and have fellow class mates (girls) rolling there eyes at you and treating you degradingly when in the last moment, you were walking them through how to give their portion of a presentation as they asked for your help. I find it really annoying, but I avoid taking it on, if at all possible.
My solution to all of this madness is to have actual friends. I find myself extraordinarily lucky to have three people who call me their best friend (2 females, and a male), and with whom I experience mutual respect and care. I don't make myself into anything else than who I am. Clearly, reading the NY Times is not exactly normal teenage behavior (at least in the eyes of those perceived to be popular), and that's fine. I have a group of people behind me who genuinely accept me (including me), so my self worth isn't defined by clique-y standards. My friends and I spend our lunches together grinning and laughing, and I think others (especially other girls) see that and are jealous of our friendship, which probably spurred on the eye-rolling from the popular girl in my group. And that's ok, because ultimately I have better things to deal with than worrying about her. :-)
210
I guess I was lucky as a child. The only mean girlfriend I had dumped me when she moved next door to the cutest boy in the class. I had many wonderful girlfriends in high school, but then, it was the sixties and make-up was out, jeans and desert boots were in. Lucky me.
During my teaching career I had 5 principals total in 30 years. The 3 male principals were wonderful, caring, and supportive. The 2 female principals were the mean girls, competitive, and sweet to your face as they stabbed you in the back. Oh well, now retired, I luckily continue to have many wonderful female friends. I think it is all about self-esteem.
During my teaching career I had 5 principals total in 30 years. The 3 male principals were wonderful, caring, and supportive. The 2 female principals were the mean girls, competitive, and sweet to your face as they stabbed you in the back. Oh well, now retired, I luckily continue to have many wonderful female friends. I think it is all about self-esteem.
9
When one watches some of what masquerades as entertainment Currently, ones sees women presented as a few of major types: insatiable sex machines who are always on the look out for a sex partner: good looking "successful" women who must fight and scratch and need to do so loudly and public. Even those characters who seem to break the mold often get pushed in the sex machine direction if ratings slip. Young girls are getting a warped view of how women interact or should interact. That's too bad because the men who sell this stuff are happy to make sure that as many women as possible buy into these stereotypes and exclude themselves from leadership. Be forewarned.
6
Unfortunately, I am not sure it gets better as we age. I am in a community where plastic surgery has now become the norm as women age. Don't do it and be regarded as old and odd. For professional women its awful. It is this post 55 age before we retire that is a real problem. I am very engaged, vital and plan to keep working and learning and doing. But my friends are suggesting I date men 70 and older, that I realize I will not be able to learn new technologies, get plastic surgery, and so forth. Honestly, I have loved my women friends over the years, and still do. But they are experiencing this competition thing big time as we age. I think it is ridiculous. I also think it is a stage. My friend and I went out to dinner on Friday (her husband stayed in) and there was a table of little "older" ladies seated near us-- in their 80s. I could feel the seriousness of their bond and their pleasure in being together. I want to have what "they are having" someday. And why dear friend do I want to date someone 15 years my senior at my age? I don't. But we could all be friends.
10
It is impossible for women to escape from the lure of looks. They want them, men want them, society wants them. Whatever political correctness might have us believe or wish to change, the external crust and curves of women matters much more than that of men. That's why they are supremely sensitive to where the are in the looks department when compared to other women and rate themselves on the totem pole. Bottom line: You are living in a fantasy world if you wish to socially engineer looks from women's calculations when they deal with each other and the world.
12
Didn't this used to be called "cattiness"? I'm sure that expression is out of vogue in this egalitarian era. But I still run into it in some circles and it seems undiminished by age and experience.
4
Interesting. This is completely and utterly not my experience of being a woman in this world. There was some cattiness in middle school but mostly the girls were fine. In high school there were some girls who were the cheerleader-type (and still prided themselves on good grades). I had a lot of friends and felt on good terms with everyone. We didn't have a lot of drama. In my adult life I work with extremely talented women (and men!); I do feel competition, but not in the sabotaging, zero-sum way. Rather it's in the healthy way where I want to be better at what I do.
Maybe it has to do with whether you think your core value is derived from the males who like you, or whether you primarily value yourself for other (non-gendered?) core attributes. Girls get that message from an early age and it takes a lot to not absorb it; I suppose I just had the good fortune to not be raised to think of myself primarily in relationship to men. In general, I feel good about myself and figure it's a big world with a lot of room.
Maybe it has to do with whether you think your core value is derived from the males who like you, or whether you primarily value yourself for other (non-gendered?) core attributes. Girls get that message from an early age and it takes a lot to not absorb it; I suppose I just had the good fortune to not be raised to think of myself primarily in relationship to men. In general, I feel good about myself and figure it's a big world with a lot of room.
18
I have often thought that men cheat or at least lust because of a left-over feral instinct over which they have little control. Guess this article shows that women are not immune to left-over genetic instincts either. By the way, I am a very senior citizen (female), and I recognize many of the displays of this behavior in females from an early age (even pre-school) to those in their golden years. Goes to show that some things are instinctive and not driven by upbringing or environment.
6
Problem is Feminists don't consider men as equal human beings, they see them as the problem.
And this article is just another link in the chain of Feminist Man bashing that editors of the NYT has been publishing since recent years.
And for pointing this out me "a Man's" comments will not be approved.
And this article is just another link in the chain of Feminist Man bashing that editors of the NYT has been publishing since recent years.
And for pointing this out me "a Man's" comments will not be approved.
9
Well, probably not too smart to get your definition of "feminist" from someone like Rush Limbaugh. Last I heard it isn't about subhuman guys but more like getting equal pay.
"Chain of Feminist Man" sounds like a punk group- lol.
"Chain of Feminist Man" sounds like a punk group- lol.
9
You are hilarious.
8
I determined a long time ago that the cattiness in women and girls is directly linked to their perceived powerlessness. In a world where they see limitations to their potential to rise (such as a social or professional glass ceiling) they seem to think their only other option is to elevate themselves by demeaning others. So, it is not so surprising that the very powerful women referenced in this article (Taylor Swift, Beyoncé, etc.) are noted for being "above" this behavior. Hopefully we can nurture other girls and women who know their power and can rise without demeaning others to do so!
140
I guess I got lucky...there were not many mean girls or cliques in my middle school and and none in high school in Bethesda, MD...however, there was a certain Darcy E...mean girl par excellance...
3
As the middle of three daughters, I can assure you that women are absolutely the worst. No man has ever treated me so badly as my own sisters. No man has ever so much as tapped my shoulder with an angry finger, yet my oder sister threw me to the floor and tried to choke me. No man has ever sent me denigrating emails, yet my younger sister sent me emails so nasty that it took a year before I got them out of my dreams.
Sisterly love? One sister cried when she heard that I'd successfully defended my PhD thesis -- out of jealousy.
In my 35 years in the working world, none of my male bosses treated me badly; the only bad working experience I had was with a female supervisor.
The rage of female jealousy should not be underestimated.
Sisterly love? One sister cried when she heard that I'd successfully defended my PhD thesis -- out of jealousy.
In my 35 years in the working world, none of my male bosses treated me badly; the only bad working experience I had was with a female supervisor.
The rage of female jealousy should not be underestimated.
40
Don't generalize the behavior of your family as that of all women. I have two sisters as well, and we are very kind to each other. Neither of us is representative of women as a whole.
11
Men compete and have jealousy between each other as well, but they still help each other move up in the world.
Perhaps women mostly have toxic relationships with each other after puberty because our society teaches that women don't matter. In a patriarchy their role is to compete for successful males because they are the ones in control. It would be interesting to do a study on female friendships in matrilineal societies.
Perhaps women mostly have toxic relationships with each other after puberty because our society teaches that women don't matter. In a patriarchy their role is to compete for successful males because they are the ones in control. It would be interesting to do a study on female friendships in matrilineal societies.
2
"our society teaches that women don't matter" please stop the nonsense.
2
As a woman, it has been The Matriarchy who has been toxic to me and most women, as it is women who teach other women to be passive aggressive professional victims who blame all their self created problems on others.
4
This sounds the same as the way people were discussing this subject 30 years ago. Understanding how women compete with women as a specific gendered thing requires being clearer about (1) how women's competition with other women compares with the way they compete with men; (2) how men compete with women, (3) how men compete with men, and (4) all of this in how it differs across fields of competition and for what rewards. Seriously. Let's move on already.
2
I don't know whether they're faking it or whether it's for real, but many of the most appealing women out there are those who appear to be comfortable in their skin.
8
'...Amy Schumer and Beyoncé and Taylor Swift...This makes them feminist heroes...'
Leaving aside the fact that Beyoncé often dresses like a stripper (for no good reason, as she is both beautiful and famous), and no woman who dress like a stripper should be considered a 'feminist hero', the reason that women are passive aggressive is that is what they were taught to do by their mothers, whenever they were angry, because females are also supposed to be 'nice'.
That no one always feels like being 'nice' is fine for boys, but punished in girls by the mothers. The fathers could care less and are fine with letting small children fight it out.
It is not The Patriarchy that is the enemy of women, it is The Matriarchy.
Leaving aside the fact that Beyoncé often dresses like a stripper (for no good reason, as she is both beautiful and famous), and no woman who dress like a stripper should be considered a 'feminist hero', the reason that women are passive aggressive is that is what they were taught to do by their mothers, whenever they were angry, because females are also supposed to be 'nice'.
That no one always feels like being 'nice' is fine for boys, but punished in girls by the mothers. The fathers could care less and are fine with letting small children fight it out.
It is not The Patriarchy that is the enemy of women, it is The Matriarchy.
8
My mother, a career professional of 30 years, says hands down she would rather work for a man than a woman any day of the week.
28
I am a female career professional of 40 years and would work for almost any man over almost any woman.
15
I find that people with low self esteem, either male or female, spend most of their emotional focus on making themselves appear "better", however they define it, at the expense of others, who are usually oblivious.
176
Duh!
How is that different from men?
How is that different from men?
12
Of course it's the patriarchy, stupid! Interesting that no mention is made here of media image portrayals of women as nonentities whose real personalities never come out, not that that could have anything to do with programming women in a certain way. Women are only valued for beauty, sex, cooking and cleaning in these portrayals, as they always have been. Women are reacting to the DAILY disgusting levels of debasement, demeaning misogyny, or the preferred term, woman-hating, they see and experience everyday. Of course they replicate it and worse, hate themselves in doing so. This is of course exactly the point of patriarchy, which is a system that preserves power for MALES. This question deserves far more than a piece that reduces women's psychological issues to ones of appearance and ego instead of the more complex and EXISTENTIAL issues we actually face. This piece unfortunately sounds as if it were written by a teen who took a few modern "feminist" courses in school (they are not feminist in any way, but pseudofeminist). None of your ignorami commenters, like the male who says there is no patriarchy, seem to have any understanding of the scope of women's problems. All that said, I reiterate: IT'S THE PATRIARCHY, STUPID! Women have much more affection and empathy for each other that will come out once the propaganda we are subjected to wanes. The first step is not denying it and waking up to it.
11
I agree with the author. It's other women, not men, who are the problem.
8
Oh, please, ladies go live in any Muslim-majority country and then come back and tell me about patriarchy. Western women don't know how good they have it.
7
Exceptional article.
I try to remind myself that I am only in competition with myself but it still hurts when I feel the pointy elbows when I get boxed out. Thanks
I try to remind myself that I am only in competition with myself but it still hurts when I feel the pointy elbows when I get boxed out. Thanks
5
I think this article is reinforcing stereotypes about female competitiveness. I am a psychotherapist and I have more men talking to me about competition among each other than women. Men tell me they have to act tough and macho at work to compete with other male peers. I rarely have women complaining to me about female competitiveness. I think modern day women who are independent and confident are not typically catty or competitive with other women. If a woman is openly competitive in general, with men and/or females at work, she risks being called a bitch. Women are still concerned about weight, body and appearance so naturally they compare themselves to other women because it makes no sense to compare their bodies to men. However, most of the time women feel bad about their own bodies and are not doing so to be catty but, rather because they have low self esteem. More and more men are coming into therapy with body image concerns too. I see a leveling of the playing field in terms of male and female concerns as gender equality increases. In terms of female cattiness, this tends to occur more with stay-at-home moms who value themselves based on more traditional benchmarks, as described in the article. There's a mom's group in Palo Alto, CA, that is the "queen" of cattiness. It is such a horrible mob of moms. They post derogatory emails on their list serves about anyone (male of female) who upsets them.
10
re: catty women: [ above]4 judgmental lines about nasty moms' group behavior???? from a a psychotherapist ? who cares? would rather hear independent, confident group benchmarks . O I guess therapist is NOT a mom..therefore needing to put down moms' groups and self-elevate.
2
The competition never ends----try having children---! Or even---my father is dying: well, mine---is dead!
5
When women kiss it always reminds one of prize fighters shaking hands.
H. L. Mencken
H. L. Mencken
20
There's plenty of petty and small men who do this sort of thing too.
162
Yeah, so? We are talking specifically about women here. What's with the comparing-desease? Isn't it typically female to NOT be crisply aware and critical about one's behavior?
3
Have you seen one magazine that asks teen boys, "How to keep her from leaving you"? Do you have any idea how much money is made (and for a zillion years by just men) by constantly emphasizing girls' and women's looks??? It's a hugely lookrative world from runways to beauty pageants to plastic surgery.
Don't, for a second think men are less competitive. Cars? Money? The size of their thingies, ad infinitum. Just, btw, humans were originally a matriarchy. Pregnancy was created by her and a wind god. The Greeks and Romans got it right. They fought wars over women. It's also a subject that can't have substance without bringing in old Oedipus and Elektra.
Don't, for a second think men are less competitive. Cars? Money? The size of their thingies, ad infinitum. Just, btw, humans were originally a matriarchy. Pregnancy was created by her and a wind god. The Greeks and Romans got it right. They fought wars over women. It's also a subject that can't have substance without bringing in old Oedipus and Elektra.
13
In my experience, straight men (I can't speak for gay men) do not compare the size of their thingies. In the shower, at the urinal or elsewhere, one does not look directly at another man's thingie, lest the look be misinterpreted. In any case one has no interest in the size of other men's thingies, because one's wife is satisfied with one's own.
2
Feminists find any way to bash men.
Females being catty => Men are to blame.
Females being catty => Men are to blame.
20
Did you actually read the article? The author doesn't blame men at all.
Of course, women should blame themselves! That's always the right answer.
Of course, women should blame themselves! That's always the right answer.
7
“Women compete, compare, undermine and undercut one another — at least that is the prevailing notion of how we interact.”
If you has learned to be secure in yourself and accepting of yourself it would not be so paranoia inducing when someone points out a clear fact even if they do intend the undermining your insecurity makes you suspect.
Competition makes you better by forcing you to improve to beat the person who is better than you. Even if you never beat them you get better. Your fears about yourself and other women’s intentions is an inside problem/job.
If you has learned to be secure in yourself and accepting of yourself it would not be so paranoia inducing when someone points out a clear fact even if they do intend the undermining your insecurity makes you suspect.
Competition makes you better by forcing you to improve to beat the person who is better than you. Even if you never beat them you get better. Your fears about yourself and other women’s intentions is an inside problem/job.
6
I don't agree with you because I think too much of female competition is competing to be better at things we should not be striving to do, much less get good at -- be super sexy, attract rich alpha males (who, then, of course, then treat us like the servant we have been vying to become), be beautiful all the time, be super-thin, have highly competitive children who make the other kids look like losers, marry the richest men (regardless of how they treat us), be hyper-feminine (rather than, say, hyper-financially-independent and fiscally solid) and so on.
Women are in a race to the bottom.
The things that other women would like to compete with me to do are almost all things that I don't actually even want to do at all, but then if I don't do them, they convince themselves that they have somehow "won." While they have given up all their freedom, power, financial security and independence from men to "win."
Win WHAT?
So, ironically, as a woman, you are regarded as a "loser" when you don't get t
Women are in a race to the bottom.
The things that other women would like to compete with me to do are almost all things that I don't actually even want to do at all, but then if I don't do them, they convince themselves that they have somehow "won." While they have given up all their freedom, power, financial security and independence from men to "win."
Win WHAT?
So, ironically, as a woman, you are regarded as a "loser" when you don't get t
6
I always find that men are the ones who insist that women are constantly competitive. It's not really been my experience that this is true.
When men say it, it's always a version of, "Men aren't the reason women are insecure/neurotic/less successful. You really only have yourselves to blame."
When men say it, it's always a version of, "Men aren't the reason women are insecure/neurotic/less successful. You really only have yourselves to blame."
10
The author Emily V. Gordon sounds incredibly superficial. Does research really demonstrate that "aggression is a combination of “self-promotion,” making themselves look more attractive, and “derogation of rivals,” being catty about other women?” What about women who aren’t aggressive that way? I wasn’t. Or maybe I was just unobservant or oblivious, because I never really cared about clothes, make-up, being attractive to boys, etc, and I still don’t. I certainly didn’t participate in these kinds of activities; what a waste of time. I was much more interested in ideas and stories and activities and reading, and luckily for me, I had smart and interesting friends of both sexes in middle school and high school.
12
You mean "Mean Girls" (starring Lindsay Lohan) isn't fiction?
I was misinformed ... .
I was misinformed ... .
2
I am a huge supporter of the theory that your mentality remains where you were when you either had your first drink, or your first period. Women who get to HS without either tend to get seriously into being mean girls, gossiping, and backstabbing, creating groups with alliances. Women who peak before that are more like dogs, or scientists, preferring to deal with the world on a what you see is what you get basis..The twain shall never meet. IMHO
1
I agree. I think humans in general are constantly comparing themselves to others. It's not about how pretty she is, it's about how pretty you're not. It's not about how "good" with girls he is, it's about how good with girls you're not.
And I think a major aspect of why it's so freaking difficult and "catty" and competitive to be female and have female friends is because we don't show our real physical selves. We cover our faces with make-up, stick our feet in painful teetering can't-run shoes, burn our hair into straight lines with heat, and otherwise cover ourselves in goop to shape, contour, and mold our bodies out of reality.
We're supposed to look perfect. We can't have flaws, and we try to make them nonexistent by painting over them, literally. If no woman ever wore makeup, and were just humans, with skin bumps and boinks and blotches, all the time, always, for the whole world to see, that would go a long way to helping babies, girls, and women to stop feeling this insane pressure of perfection.
And I think a major aspect of why it's so freaking difficult and "catty" and competitive to be female and have female friends is because we don't show our real physical selves. We cover our faces with make-up, stick our feet in painful teetering can't-run shoes, burn our hair into straight lines with heat, and otherwise cover ourselves in goop to shape, contour, and mold our bodies out of reality.
We're supposed to look perfect. We can't have flaws, and we try to make them nonexistent by painting over them, literally. If no woman ever wore makeup, and were just humans, with skin bumps and boinks and blotches, all the time, always, for the whole world to see, that would go a long way to helping babies, girls, and women to stop feeling this insane pressure of perfection.
24
If this psychology is primarily female, what other behaviors might be, and what does that say about the nature/nurture assertions at the core of feminist doctrine?
3
This piece just doesn't feel relevent. Women cut women down, men cut men down and it's all part of the learning process. Once you are secure in who you are you no longer need to cut others down. I don't think it's a gender issue but one of maturity. Some people unfortunately never outgrow it while others become mentors.
24
"Once you are secure in who you are you no longer need to cut others down." you say. Indeed, true. The problem is - totally supported by studies for decades: Women ARE NOT SECURE IN THEMSELVES!! Newest (old results): over 80% of American women aren't happy with their body. Not happy with your body, not secure in yourself. A no-brainer.
5
Let's not forget that women also use this finely-honed indirect aggression not just against other women but against men, also.
I spent the first two years of high school in a coed environment, and the second two years in a same-sex high school. The coed high school was a jungle where the queen bees exalted their beaus and devastated the "untouchables" with verbal cuts. By comparison, the same-sex environment was a utopia of learning, mutual support and achievement.
Mothers and wives encourage men to be aggressive hulks, ready for violence - towards other men, and then everyone is shocked, I say shocked, when a small portion of this male violence turns towards women.
Male-on-male violence is deep in the genes of most species, and the "arms race" of strong males means females are subjugated.
We still have a long way to evolve towards our culture modifying our genetic inheritance. Real gender equality means valuing fragile men as much as we value fragile women, letting men start careers mid-life, etc. etc.... we are a long way from these things.
I spent the first two years of high school in a coed environment, and the second two years in a same-sex high school. The coed high school was a jungle where the queen bees exalted their beaus and devastated the "untouchables" with verbal cuts. By comparison, the same-sex environment was a utopia of learning, mutual support and achievement.
Mothers and wives encourage men to be aggressive hulks, ready for violence - towards other men, and then everyone is shocked, I say shocked, when a small portion of this male violence turns towards women.
Male-on-male violence is deep in the genes of most species, and the "arms race" of strong males means females are subjugated.
We still have a long way to evolve towards our culture modifying our genetic inheritance. Real gender equality means valuing fragile men as much as we value fragile women, letting men start careers mid-life, etc. etc.... we are a long way from these things.
11
"Women compete, compare, undermine and undercut one another " - I am so glad I don't live in your universe. In my world, woman are supportive, cooperative, and value collectively achieving community goals. Your six sound like a bunch of "mean girls" who are totally out of themselves at everyone's else expense. I'd get better friends (and try to be a nicer person)..
19
You are exhibiting the except same traits from the article in your post. You are putting down the author, comparing her to yourself. You are acting like you and your friends are perfect and faultless and then demonizing the others. Stop living in a world of black and white. You are just as much of a mean girl as those you demonize. So much for you being supportive... clearly you need to learn what what that means.
13
S Sweeney-you just proved her point. Youre another one of this insecure ones. She is not berating women. I think this a very thoughtful and a very spot on analysis of the female psyche.
7
There is no greater argument for the cause of women ceasing to tear each other down in perceived or actual competition for men's affections than the comments and perspectives of the men's rights crowd on this thread. Why would any woman want these guys anywhere near them???
4
Right. Women need to wise up and start cooperating with each other, if we are ever to have a ghost of a chance against the men, who quickly, easily and naturally form up into a "bands of brothers" to advance their mutual interests against "the other," which would be, obviously, women.
While women compete with each other.
Just stupid!!!!! What is WRONG with us?????
Men are so convinced that they DESERVE and HAVE A RIGHT TO all the advantages that they enjoy over women and they are very quick to band together to defend them ... while women, in a totally inept response, slide into resignation, give up at the real struggle before us -- get equal to men -- and, instead, slice at one another with 1000 tiny razors ... in a most self-destructive manner.
It's truly discouraging.
While women compete with each other.
Just stupid!!!!! What is WRONG with us?????
Men are so convinced that they DESERVE and HAVE A RIGHT TO all the advantages that they enjoy over women and they are very quick to band together to defend them ... while women, in a totally inept response, slide into resignation, give up at the real struggle before us -- get equal to men -- and, instead, slice at one another with 1000 tiny razors ... in a most self-destructive manner.
It's truly discouraging.
3
And lesson number 1 in female competition is from your mom.
14
People--men and women are competitive and don't always treat their friends well. There, fixed that for you. Some are nastier than others. The rest is just cheap and dirty sociobiology.
17
Biology clearly plays a role in the behaviors described,there are US specific features that we shouldn't overlook.Infantilization of our culture means that there are typically no adults around to serve as role models for more "evolved" behavior.Increasing self absorption, facilitated by social media and selfies,also fosters these behaviors.Finally,a declining interest in education in the broadest sense and an increasing focus on "fun" mean that even the typically more thoughtful members of society continue grade school behavior into so called adult life.The popularity of the 'Real Housewives"of Everywhere,in which the behaviors the author describes are particularly blatant given the lack of sophistication of the people in the shows, is a manifestation of the culture we find ourselves with.
11
Don't you think there is some male-interest-dominated, anti-female-bias- promoting selection process going on inside the networks, the result of which is: we are inundated by images of women acting like juvenile, petty, catty brats (Real Housewhores of Wherever) while images of women who have brains, perspective, a commitment to making progress for all women as a group, and a grasp of the big picture facing ALL US WOMEN TOGETHER are not found about anywhere on the airwaves?
8
Women compete with one another because we are lazy and stupid and too timid to address the real problem -- the way men have rigged the world against us ALL.
Wise up, ladies!!
I'm so sick of this behavior on the part of other women all the time.
We are destroying ourselves, while the men look on and chuckle at how stupid we are ...
We are SO EASY to dominate and control ... because of exactly the kind of ridiculous thoughts outlined in this article.
What is WRONG with us???
Wise up, ladies!!
I'm so sick of this behavior on the part of other women all the time.
We are destroying ourselves, while the men look on and chuckle at how stupid we are ...
We are SO EASY to dominate and control ... because of exactly the kind of ridiculous thoughts outlined in this article.
What is WRONG with us???
12
Speak for yourself.
5
Women simply must start to realize that male-dominated cultures retain their power because they keep women fighting and competing with each other instead of working together. Stop watching garbage like "Kardashians", "Real Housewives", and "Mafia Women", stop the petty finding fault with other girls/women and start honoring their differences and positive attributes. There is plenty to go around - plenty of men, plenty of love, plenty of space to grow. The only way to evolve from the world of male politics/war/hate/anger is for socially conscious women and men to share power equally and the first step is for women to support each other. Every woman in America - and the men who love them - MUST vote for Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton for President of the United States of America because SHE IS THE MOST QUALIFIED CANDIDATE and she is a woman.
20
There is far too much hate going around for Hillary. Even a lot of democrats are buying into it. Sadly, sexism is alive in both men and women.
6
If she is the most qualified candidate the second part of your statement is irrelevant.
6
Somehow this dynamic didn't happen in my life. My girlfriends and I have an unspoken taboo against "mean talk." I love my female friends.
8
I moved to a small island of mean girls, but they are all in their late 50's. At one of the first social gatherings I was told that "we don't take to women coming here and messing with our husbands." I actually had my own husband, but I was younger and thinner and considered an immediate threat. So there you go.
31
As a single woman who often attends social events with older women, I also have experienced this pathetic attitude. I sometimes laugh and reassure them that as a lesbian I am much more interested in them than their husbands. They have never found this amusing.
14
I liked Tsultrim's comments, re peaking in 7th grade. This kind of behavior is notorious in nursing, where we all know the phrase "nurses eat their young." (And they'd eat their old, too, but the old tend to be tougher and less vulnerable). And though it's rarely mentioned, we aren't talking about male nurses, here.
My guess is it goes back to survival behaviors that are a million years old or better. But it's a pity. We're better than that--at least we should be.
I did a quick search of the terms Nursing and Lateral Violence (ie bullying) and turned up 18,000 or so. These below are worth seeing.
Meantime the only solution I can think of is the sexes need each other, in close proximity, working as respectful teams. Guys can help here. Their sense of humors are especially helpful. So is their tendency to not take competition too personally. (But often they don't even notice the bullying going on between the women around them.)
http://www.nursingworld.org/Mobile/Nursing-Factsheets/lateral-violence-a...
http://nursingworld.org/MainMenuCategories/ANAMarketplace/ANAPeriodicals...
My guess is it goes back to survival behaviors that are a million years old or better. But it's a pity. We're better than that--at least we should be.
I did a quick search of the terms Nursing and Lateral Violence (ie bullying) and turned up 18,000 or so. These below are worth seeing.
Meantime the only solution I can think of is the sexes need each other, in close proximity, working as respectful teams. Guys can help here. Their sense of humors are especially helpful. So is their tendency to not take competition too personally. (But often they don't even notice the bullying going on between the women around them.)
http://www.nursingworld.org/Mobile/Nursing-Factsheets/lateral-violence-a...
http://nursingworld.org/MainMenuCategories/ANAMarketplace/ANAPeriodicals...
5
How sad that as children of the Enlightenment we can analyze our plight from an social science of view and lay it out in all its dreadful complexity, but as human beings we're helpless to change it.
Since gender studies are all the rage these days, I am surprised to find a blind spot in this column, in which women are universally assumed to be sexually and emotionally attracted to men.
It would be very helpful to compare and contrast the author's experiences and observations as a heterosexual woman with life within the lesbian community. What happens when men are no longer the major point of reference for one's worth and ambitions?
Since gender studies are all the rage these days, I am surprised to find a blind spot in this column, in which women are universally assumed to be sexually and emotionally attracted to men.
It would be very helpful to compare and contrast the author's experiences and observations as a heterosexual woman with life within the lesbian community. What happens when men are no longer the major point of reference for one's worth and ambitions?
8
I am not a lesbian, but I've known lots of them and they often seem to struggle with the same issues as heterosexuals.
3
Surely, things get better. The lesbians I know are happier than the heteros and that only makes sense.
The problem is, changing one's sexual orientation is not something that happens merely upon one's conscious realization that one's innate preference is sort of stupid ...
The problem is, changing one's sexual orientation is not something that happens merely upon one's conscious realization that one's innate preference is sort of stupid ...
This is true for that subset of girls who are at the "top of the heap" socially. The popular girls. Those who are actively engaged in getting boys' attention and who see their attention as confirmation of their worth and status. But let's not lose sight on all the other girls who aren't in this subset. And who have quality friendships with other girls not in this subset.
Basically, I saying this: A good article but let's not paint all girls with this brush.
Basically, I saying this: A good article but let's not paint all girls with this brush.
21
If you're not blaming men for competition among women then you're a misogynist men's rights activist, don't ya know?
Oh, and you are also a troll for not agreeing with third wave feminism,
Oh, and you are also a troll for not agreeing with third wave feminism,
16
Third wave feminism, hmmm- I think she was referencing her women friends not a bunch of lingo about guys. Maybe just sit this one out.
4
Possibly there is irony in the responses here of women that say their relationships with other woman bare no resemblance to those described in the article. What better way to enforce one's own superiority at the expense of the writer? Just saying.
I think that any clear line of difference between the relationships between females and those between males would be extremely difficult to tease out factually and I wish the researchers luck on this.
We are a negotiating species reliant on allies, and woman have always needed cooperation with other woman to enhance their chances of survival just as men have with other men.
I believe that there are competing forces going on in these relationships that create a much more complicated interaction than suggested in this article. It is impossible to get a completely clear view of one's own motives in everyday social exchanges. Good luck at trying to assess the motives of your ally-enemy friends.
I think that any clear line of difference between the relationships between females and those between males would be extremely difficult to tease out factually and I wish the researchers luck on this.
We are a negotiating species reliant on allies, and woman have always needed cooperation with other woman to enhance their chances of survival just as men have with other men.
I believe that there are competing forces going on in these relationships that create a much more complicated interaction than suggested in this article. It is impossible to get a completely clear view of one's own motives in everyday social exchanges. Good luck at trying to assess the motives of your ally-enemy friends.
68
I thought the exact same thing as you did about the people who said they have never experienced this in their interactions with women friends. I think that it is absolutely impossible to have never experienced it. I certainly have especially when younger. Now I am a bit better at spotting warning signs before I am surprised by it. I also have to mention that in the realm of motherhood this kind of competition is alive and well. That is where I most encounter it now.
76
Let me shorten this essay a bit, and get to the underpinning truth:
Women tend to be narcissistic if not outright vain. This results in complex issues for them, and competition.
There.
Women tend to be narcissistic if not outright vain. This results in complex issues for them, and competition.
There.
18
And men aren't?
Give me a break. You're all still counting the inches on your thingies, and you're all checking out what cars you have and what "girl" in the room has her eye on you and who's going to score.
Give me a break. You're all still counting the inches on your thingies, and you're all checking out what cars you have and what "girl" in the room has her eye on you and who's going to score.
5
Here's an observation for rnen that nicely balances your comment,
Dont try to understand women,
Only women understand women
And that's why they hate each other.
Dont try to understand women,
Only women understand women
And that's why they hate each other.
4
Wow. Amazing. 1/2 the population is narcissictic. I think you would agree that some men are narcissic too? That's a lot of us.
I have trouble thinking that all of any group has one way of thinking/being. My one person at a time philosophy.
I have trouble thinking that all of any group has one way of thinking/being. My one person at a time philosophy.
5
It's a human/primate thing, according to psychologists : we tend to measure our own self worth in comparison to others. Other people's perceived better or worse fortunes make us feel better or worse about ourselves. I've noticed it in both genders. Many cultures promote values that help avoid these feelings. For example, Swedish culture discourages bragging and promotes equality. I've experienced girl cultures that try to achieve the same thing, sometimes aggressively, sometimes supportively. It's less of an issue as we mature.
11
I have no idea how a female growing up in the United States in the last 50 years has not experienced this type of competitiveness. As I have aged I have chosen to remain close only to those women that have evolved past this phenomenon. There is another article waiting to be written that examines how competitive women become mothers and either consciously or not, promote their daughters as the new face of the "race."
47
I appreciate that there are different explanations given for competitiveness but object to the explanation that claims women internalize the "patriarchy".
Use of the term "the patriarchy" is denigrating to women in that it focuses only on male actions and supposes that women's actions are only secondary.
Women are capable and have agency and claiming an overriding "patriarchy" denies that fact.
Use of the term "the patriarchy" is denigrating to women in that it focuses only on male actions and supposes that women's actions are only secondary.
Women are capable and have agency and claiming an overriding "patriarchy" denies that fact.
12
I am 67 . We were the first generation of American married women who could legally have separate bank and brokerage accounts without our husbands' written permission. Etc., etc. "The patriarchy" is not some ancient relic. There has been a lot of progress on the sexual equality front in my lifetime but we still have a lot of work to do, including the kind of work on ourselves that Ms. Gordon is implicitly proposing.
60
What, you are denying the existence of the patriarchy?
7
Lot of honesty, insights and self-reflection here. Great piece.
I'd add one more leap to the author's conclusions. We actually never see anyone or anything out there - independent of us - even though it seems to be the case.
The world is really only a projection of that which resides within us on some level. When we get angry when we see what we dislike in others, we're seeing capacities that still exist in ourselves. When we see positive traits, we're also seeing what resides in us.
Naturally we don't like the negative in others, but most of us are not yet courageous and aware enough to realize we're seeing an aspect of ourselves that needs transmuting. The annoying behavior may need transmuting in the other person, too, but only they can do that if they're inclined.
We have to fix ourselves, and the world is a mirror constantly inviting us to become aware of what we need to work on within. It's clearly a gigantic, life long process. Doing our best to do the right thing, not intentionally causing harm and refusing to surrender our self respect as we go through life helps a lot, too.
I'd add one more leap to the author's conclusions. We actually never see anyone or anything out there - independent of us - even though it seems to be the case.
The world is really only a projection of that which resides within us on some level. When we get angry when we see what we dislike in others, we're seeing capacities that still exist in ourselves. When we see positive traits, we're also seeing what resides in us.
Naturally we don't like the negative in others, but most of us are not yet courageous and aware enough to realize we're seeing an aspect of ourselves that needs transmuting. The annoying behavior may need transmuting in the other person, too, but only they can do that if they're inclined.
We have to fix ourselves, and the world is a mirror constantly inviting us to become aware of what we need to work on within. It's clearly a gigantic, life long process. Doing our best to do the right thing, not intentionally causing harm and refusing to surrender our self respect as we go through life helps a lot, too.
16
As a gay man of 50+ years, more often than not, my friends have been women. I'm fortunate my gal pals have been strong women in their own right, living lives on their terms as best they can. Their struggles, setbacks, and achievements have helped me with my own. As a friend, I've heard and seen to one degree or another the behaviors Ms. Gordon describes. Theories aside, the behaviors are out there. Much of it I think falls under the rubric of bullying: the insecure lashing out. I've known bullying from about kindergarten on. Fortunately the bullying I got was mostly verbal, once in awhile physical. The "mean girl" behaviors in school and then the "alpha female" of adulthood my friends used to stress over seemed to take a toll no matter the coping strategies they tried. The emotional dimension of this so-called competition could be deep and pernicious. Frankly, I'd take the male bullying I got as a kid, and the homophobic slurs of adulthood, over what I see some women do to each other.
10
"Research tells us that women are compelled to level the playing field by any means necessary to make sure we have access to the best genetic material, but since these are not real concerns in our modern lives, our competitiveness becomes something a bit more private and understandable."
How is finding the best genetic material, aka finding the best mate possible, not a real concern in our modern lives? Have women stopped having children in the last few decades, and even if they had, would that time be sufficient to undo millions of years of natural selection? I don't think so.
How is finding the best genetic material, aka finding the best mate possible, not a real concern in our modern lives? Have women stopped having children in the last few decades, and even if they had, would that time be sufficient to undo millions of years of natural selection? I don't think so.
7
How sad and tacked-on the end of this piece seems to me - women are competing with themselves. Even worse is the idea that men are always the mirror by which women see themselves. I'm a lesbian and am thankful that every idea here is completely foreign to me.
8
I would be interested in some kind of "conversion therapy" if it could successfully turn me into a lesbian ... any suggestions?
I've tried converting myself but it just doesn't stick ... but, at the same time, being hetero is obviously irrational, self-contradictory and low-return.
Having other women be all competitive is just one of the 1000s of things about being a hetero women that make zero sense.
Asexuality seems to be the only refuge of the hetero-but-rational woman ...
I've tried converting myself but it just doesn't stick ... but, at the same time, being hetero is obviously irrational, self-contradictory and low-return.
Having other women be all competitive is just one of the 1000s of things about being a hetero women that make zero sense.
Asexuality seems to be the only refuge of the hetero-but-rational woman ...
4
Outstanding insight into understanding mans companion. If the framing offends, it is likely rooted in the professing individualism emanating from the last sentence. Women and men realizing they are not the dominant forces in their own universes, would be an acceptance that offends neither spiritualism or secularism.
Even such outstanding insight can not be reasoned into further altering 'patriarchy'; until women no longer want to claim, "See what I got for mine?" i.e, feel 'a sick thrill of power when I did it to her' e.g. make-up, high heels, stockings in winter.
"You've come a long way baby!" Were you almost there -- until, "only ask once"? Then did you find all the men in your universe had asked once? Did you decline, with empowerment? It could be patriarchy-reasoned that you have reassessed some Hillaryisms, and salvaged your singed brassieres from the bonfire.
Will you soon realize yourselves taking a few more steps away from Billary, back into those patriarchal arms? There you'll always find the exclaiming embrace awaiting, "Welcome back baby
Even such outstanding insight can not be reasoned into further altering 'patriarchy'; until women no longer want to claim, "See what I got for mine?" i.e, feel 'a sick thrill of power when I did it to her' e.g. make-up, high heels, stockings in winter.
"You've come a long way baby!" Were you almost there -- until, "only ask once"? Then did you find all the men in your universe had asked once? Did you decline, with empowerment? It could be patriarchy-reasoned that you have reassessed some Hillaryisms, and salvaged your singed brassieres from the bonfire.
Will you soon realize yourselves taking a few more steps away from Billary, back into those patriarchal arms? There you'll always find the exclaiming embrace awaiting, "Welcome back baby
1
Using my own experience, I will say that I think the "mean girls" syndrome principally inflicts girls who have a fighting chance of being counted among the "popular set" at school. Even though I was in more varsity sports than anyone in my high school, my rise to the popular set was never a possibility because I didn't have the necessary clothes or personality. The people who victimized me were the girls who were already more popular than I was, something I never understood (why they needed to demean me). As a result of being on the margins socially, I developed a set of friends also on the margins. Since none of us were social climbers, we were free to be good friends, not competing, but all just trying to survive the cruelty of the popular set. For decades, now, we have remained good, supportive friends. Other members of my family who attempted to break into the popular crowd were betrayed, black-balled, and belittled, until they receded into the mass of invisible students and tried to reconstruct themselves and find a new set of real friends.
74
Yeah, what is wrong with women are girls, to do this to each other???
4
Not something I have experienced. My high school friends are still close friends, as are my college friends. Feeling a need to denigrate co-workers just because they are female is bizarre. I triend to rear my daughter to trust and love her female friends, and she remains close with them. One can adopt values that promote cooperation and mutual support among women.
25
Men compete with men for women. Women compete with women for men. This is news?
Maybe it's time to realize that the sexes are much more alike, with respect to intelligence and behavior, and stop this stupid notion that one is inferior/superior to the other and deserving of special treatment. When looking at wholly arbitrary classifications like sex and race, you'll always find greater variability among members of these groups than than the groups as a whole.
I'm not a man. I'm not a woman. I'm a human being. Let's leave it at there.
Maybe it's time to realize that the sexes are much more alike, with respect to intelligence and behavior, and stop this stupid notion that one is inferior/superior to the other and deserving of special treatment. When looking at wholly arbitrary classifications like sex and race, you'll always find greater variability among members of these groups than than the groups as a whole.
I'm not a man. I'm not a woman. I'm a human being. Let's leave it at there.
28
Women have extremely important, special problems that are caused by the way that men have taken advantage of our natural disadvantages, which are obvious to anyone with eyes -- we are smaller, weaker, get pregnant, are burdened with social expectations that we do most of the parenting of the next generation, are discriminated against on all fronts, are underpaid, under-estimated all the time ... in large parts of the world, we are forced to marry against our will, confined to the home, killed by our families for being raped ... on and on.
Open your eyes.
Pretending that women are just like men is just another kind of misogyny.
Open your eyes.
Pretending that women are just like men is just another kind of misogyny.
10
Great article and so, so true! My male friends are just so easy, so laid back and never make me feel guilty. If I don't call or forget something it's no big deal. No tears, no 'come to Jesus' guilt inducing phone calls, non nasty emails. I guess I'm an outlier - I cringe when I see packs of women friends giggling and shopping and getting their nails done. The soul baring sessions the hugging - ugh!! It's just not for me. And don't get me started on female bosses - living hell. At least your women friends won't try to get you fired because you dress better than they do, or look younger. I'm fine with a few, equally non-sensitive female friends, and God bless my male friends - they keep it all real.
25
There must be a time warp, this article sounds like it was written in the late '50's or early '60's. Time to do two things: grow up, and come into the present.
10
My friends and I have another theory about this kind of behavior. We call it, "peaking in 7th grade." A snarky phrase, but informative, since the behavior in junior high is generally crude, competitive judging of others. Popularity is the value, and life is seen in terms of "success" and "failure." "Failure" is ascribed to anyone you don't like or understand or fear. Adults who don't grow out of this behavior become bullies and control freaks. It's destructive and hurts others at work, at church, in neighborhoods, anywhere there are groups. The friends I have and have had in my adult life aren't interested in this approach, and wonder how people can spend their whole lives immersed in it. We view ourselves and others as imperfect human beings, vulnerable but strong, caring, intelligent. We make mistakes, laugh, talk about them, and continue being friends. We work through difficulties together because we value each other and value people. We stopped caring about what others thought when we got to college and began to see people as just people, each one trying to find their way. Now in my 60s, I'm bored by those stuck in this destructive behavior. Real, creative success comes from focusing on what you're doing and sticking with it, like the 10,000 hours concept. It has nothing to do with competing with others. It's to be celebrated in each other, not dissed or destroyed. Feel genuinely happy for others' successes and this immature, destructive competitiveness will fall away.
316
Love your analysis and comments. Maybe it's a generational thing?
Thank you Tsultrim . . . I moved to CO from the East coast a little over a year ago and have been fortunate to find women friends here like those you describe; I wake up every day grateful to be able to be with and learn from such dynamic, caring, unpretentious, talented women. Not sure if it was my stage of life or specific location but having spent over 30+ years of my life in the NY metro area, I have to say the 'mean girl' behavior described in this article is much more prevalent in urban areas of the East coast where so many people, both men and women, seem to devote most of their time and effort, striving for access and acceptance to a very aspirational socio/cultural/economic status quo.
7
We view ourselves and others as imperfect human beings, vulnerable but strong, caring, intelligent. We make mistakes, laugh, talk about them, and continue being friends. We work through difficulties together because we value each other and value people. We stopped caring about what others thought when we got to college and began to see people as just people, each one trying to find their way
did you live on th set of 'seinfeld' ?
did you live on th set of 'seinfeld' ?
5
Well it took an outsider but at least the NYtimes started to include indirect aggression in it's articles The obsessive focus only on male/ female physical aggression may seriously underestimate the effects of social/ indirect aggression has on our society. while physical aggression gets attacked as bad (and rightly so) ignoring indirect/ social aggression (female aggression?) makes it permissible in our society. Harmful gossip, backstabbing, cyber bully behaviors can all have serious psychological effects and lead to suicide. I'm afraid the NYtimes shows a real gender bias in it's coverage of aggression. Time for that to stop. social/ indirect aggression is a problem, much larger that the cultural appropriation of a Halloween costume !!
16
Women are humans. Deal with it.
4
This is "a" truth. But it's not the only truth. There are certainly defensive competitive women out there. But I have had wonderful supportive girl friends and women friends at every age and stage of my life. EVERY age and stage. And there are also defensive competitive boys and men out there. In fact, back in my day, my nerdy junior high guy friends had to worry both about being verbally mocked AND occasionally physically beaten up.
I guess what I'm saying is that this piece is surely true for some people and some social sets. But not for everyone. And the people we choose to hang around with, and the ways we choose to treat them, do shape our world.
I guess what I'm saying is that this piece is surely true for some people and some social sets. But not for everyone. And the people we choose to hang around with, and the ways we choose to treat them, do shape our world.
78
The competitive experiences described in this essay are totally alien to me and all of my female friends, so they are not generalizable to all women, as is suggested by the title.
10
Yes, I agree. Now I wonder, to what percentage of women do these comments actually apply? (Normally, I don't even read pieces like this; today, I'm delaying going outside to rake. hmmm....wrong decision?)
2
Watching my daughters grow up I've been fascinated by their strategies of coping with their female friends, nearly all of it coming from values imparted by my wife. The biggest and most useful strategy I've noted is that of being nice coupled with a spine of steel. Don't let anyone put you down, but don't think you're better than others. Accept people on their own terms. Never judge on looks or clothing. Always defend the less fortunate and recognize that the most fortunate have problems too. Don't worry about what so and so is doing, be true to yourself.
Be nice.
Relative to strategies of put downs and elevation employed by other girls, the strategy of niceness with a backbone, seems to work quite well.
Be nice.
Relative to strategies of put downs and elevation employed by other girls, the strategy of niceness with a backbone, seems to work quite well.
161
Treasure your wife, Mike!
8
A lovely wife, and an astute and appreciative husband. What great role models for your kids! Kudos to you, and your pithy insight--niceness with a backbone--is one I am going to borrow. Hope that is ok. : -)
11
As a father of four, two of whom are daughters, I think you undercut yourself when you say that the girls are learning these values from your wife and not you.
Great to give credit where credit is due but step up to the plate and acknowledge your role as their parent.
Great to give credit where credit is due but step up to the plate and acknowledge your role as their parent.
12
I have NEVER experienced this in myself or in my friends. I think this analysis is total baloney. It's cultural and not biological. The girls I've observed displaying this type of junior high behavior were considered stupid by the large group of girls in my social circle when I was growing up. My adolescent and college years were in the 60's and 70's. Absolutely nobody behaved this way.
12
I find that hard to believe.
Are you sure you're not missing something ...????
Are you sure you're not missing something ...????
7
I'm just sitting here wondering why there is only one comment to this thoughtful, if complex, article, but literally hundreds of comments on yet another article on the GOP race.
I am retired, so decades from the competitive world of high school and college and my 20s. I remember a lot of misery in HS, not helped by an ever critical mother for whom many things about my physical self were not satisfactory and could be corrected if I did the right thing. Looking back, I was a somewhat pretty, average sized teen with about the average amount of awkwardness in my physical self. For girls getting excellent grades was never enough. One had to be "thin" and "popular" as well. We learned early to endlessly compare our bodies and all their parts; most of us learned to compare ourselves unfavorably & in any room to seek out the persons who would make us feel badly about ourselves.
At 66 I have long since accepted myself. I am fit and healthy. I have always been a bit of an outsider having long since chosen to ignore "fashion" and makeup (I wear only what i can do in about 2 minutes). I am who I am. Life is too short to obsess about what others think of me; it is much too short to obsess about how I look. I find as I get older that I get ever more comfortable with my genuine self - there are perks to no longer being 25.
I am retired, so decades from the competitive world of high school and college and my 20s. I remember a lot of misery in HS, not helped by an ever critical mother for whom many things about my physical self were not satisfactory and could be corrected if I did the right thing. Looking back, I was a somewhat pretty, average sized teen with about the average amount of awkwardness in my physical self. For girls getting excellent grades was never enough. One had to be "thin" and "popular" as well. We learned early to endlessly compare our bodies and all their parts; most of us learned to compare ourselves unfavorably & in any room to seek out the persons who would make us feel badly about ourselves.
At 66 I have long since accepted myself. I am fit and healthy. I have always been a bit of an outsider having long since chosen to ignore "fashion" and makeup (I wear only what i can do in about 2 minutes). I am who I am. Life is too short to obsess about what others think of me; it is much too short to obsess about how I look. I find as I get older that I get ever more comfortable with my genuine self - there are perks to no longer being 25.
211
Thank you for a thoughtful comment. I'm 70, and you could be describing my life.
27
Both of y'all sound like people I'd like to know in real life. :)
5
It is the mothers, not the fathers, who do so much damage to their daughters.
4
Oh goodness. Men compete with each other too. Why when women do it is it a talking point?
All this over analysis is so tiresome. Just get on and live, ladies.
Best from,
A lady
All this over analysis is so tiresome. Just get on and live, ladies.
Best from,
A lady
376
Competition among women is it different from that of men. It doesn't have to be so destructive but it often is. Competition is not inherently wrong, but the way many women do it, nobody wins.
5
Do I detect a note of competition in your voice? (Along with a note of truth.)
1
Bravo to the author for voicing and uncovering how women undermine THEMSELVES by constantly seeking 'worthy opponents'. It's a vicious and fruitless game, that some (sadly) play their entire lives. I will pose another source of this destructive habit- observation of how ones mother relates to other women and to her daughter. My mother was envious of & competitive with me until her dying day. I chose not to follow suit (ever) and have a large group of supportive, nurturing and non-competitive women friends. And no daughter to call my own.
31
Had a like-minded mother; she was a narcissist who did not want me to surpass her in any way. She constantly criticized, betrayed, and denigrated. No matter what I achieved or how well I behaved, she found fault. I chose to remain childless. www.defaulttogoodness.com. If we are fortunate, the trauma turns us into writers/artists!
12
This was a very insightful, honest and level-headed article which nicely blended biology with today's culture. Honest self-reflection is the only way we're going to move forward, together.
Lovely to read and a well-welcomed breath of fresh air.
Lovely to read and a well-welcomed breath of fresh air.
35
I've always found it fascinating watching how girls will change from giddy and flirty when they talk to me and other guys - to immediately throwing daggers with their eyes at another girl when she encounters her. I've always found it very territorial and piercing.
I think with guys the main difference is that we know any provocation could lead to serious injury - or even death by a well-timed strike - so we try and avoid it unless absolutely necessary. Having said that, I have noticed a lot of passive-aggressive, caty behavior in my circles when things are unstable and unhappy. It's only when women become involved in an argument is when things get seriously heavy and violent - the same "access to genes" principle working again, I guess.
I think with guys the main difference is that we know any provocation could lead to serious injury - or even death by a well-timed strike - so we try and avoid it unless absolutely necessary. Having said that, I have noticed a lot of passive-aggressive, caty behavior in my circles when things are unstable and unhappy. It's only when women become involved in an argument is when things get seriously heavy and violent - the same "access to genes" principle working again, I guess.
8
So this is the west's version of the taliban women?. men dont 'do it' to them, they do it to themselves. Crazy.
"Women compete, compare, undermine and undercut one another ... "
and men dont? Of course they do in different ways -- but men in general do not care less 'others think'.
"Women compete, compare, undermine and undercut one another ... "
and men dont? Of course they do in different ways -- but men in general do not care less 'others think'.
I liked what you said till the end, or perhaps you were being sarcastic. Men are soooo competitive: cars, jobs, their hairline, $$$, power, power, power and uh, the size of those sixish inches! WAR, heroism, ad infinitum.
6
I see this kind of behavior, but you know what? Not all women are like this. I'm not. I like to build up, not tear down. And I am genuinely happy when a friend of fine has successes. I've been surrounded by supportive friends like this my whole life--sure, I have some of these negative women in my life but they do not make it to the category of "friend." It makes me sad when I see this behavior, and I think those women are missing out.
185
It's funny to me that your comment exists mainly to compare yourself and your behaviors to other women ans their actions. Of course in this comparison, you get to come out on top. Maybe you are not so different from "those women." A little self awareness goes a long way.
7
But they think all women are like them. That is the most hopeless and tragic part about them. Their blindness is puzzling indeed.
5
Agreed, Cortney. I am with you. So the question is: who are these girls and women who act and maybe even are like this (I don't think I know any; I guess if I met some, I wrote them off as incredibly boring), and why do they act the way they do?
3
An strange to happen to me, I have to say.
Lately I have made the most extraneous discovery: finding out I`m being unfair in my comments on the so called "internet".
So, having said that, while reading your article i found you mostly anoying. And i don´t know why, precisely, but I just did. It might have been the first two paragraphs, found them completely unnecessary. Or perhaps it was the way in which you walked me through your thoughts. But then again; no. It was none of the above. It was that I took it you were using the article you (yourself) wrote to put yourself above other women by presenting you (yourself) by a woman that lives at the margin of the stereotype of one.
Quite treacherous little fella we have here, I thought. Nicely done, I thought again, and by doing so, daring producing two thoughts in a row. But then, I decided to do my best and be fair (not that it would mean anything to you but it does to me).
And here it is!: You made the mistake of using your life story and placing yourself as the exception. But why? Yes, of course: to validate your point of view. Non the less, it wasn´t out of malice that you did it but given that it is an article about women competing with each other, placing yourself as the exception won´t work as well as you may have intended to.
But putting all of that aside, I "youtubed" you. Oh yeah, i did, and I found you to be completely adorable.
An strange thing to happen to me, I have to say
Lately I have made the most extraneous discovery: finding out I`m being unfair in my comments on the so called "internet".
So, having said that, while reading your article i found you mostly anoying. And i don´t know why, precisely, but I just did. It might have been the first two paragraphs, found them completely unnecessary. Or perhaps it was the way in which you walked me through your thoughts. But then again; no. It was none of the above. It was that I took it you were using the article you (yourself) wrote to put yourself above other women by presenting you (yourself) by a woman that lives at the margin of the stereotype of one.
Quite treacherous little fella we have here, I thought. Nicely done, I thought again, and by doing so, daring producing two thoughts in a row. But then, I decided to do my best and be fair (not that it would mean anything to you but it does to me).
And here it is!: You made the mistake of using your life story and placing yourself as the exception. But why? Yes, of course: to validate your point of view. Non the less, it wasn´t out of malice that you did it but given that it is an article about women competing with each other, placing yourself as the exception won´t work as well as you may have intended to.
But putting all of that aside, I "youtubed" you. Oh yeah, i did, and I found you to be completely adorable.
An strange thing to happen to me, I have to say
4
The linguist Deborah Tannen notes that girl are vicious to any other girl who claims to be different or special. The unspoken, ironclad rule is that you must not think yourself any better than anyone else in the female group. Let that be discovered and you are OUT. Tannen also notes that boys forgive spats in a day or two. Girls hold grudges for 6 months or more.
4
Very smart and well said!
1
Hah. My exhusband still retains numerous grudges for at least the past 30 years...not just girls or women. Some people are like that.
6
The unique brand of competitiveness between women disempowers us. Unlike competition between men, competition between women tends to undermine and erode our sense of ourselves and our relationships.
But competition can call out the best in each of us when we recognize and model the strengths in others and choose not to capitalize on apparent weaknesses. In fact, that's the only way to be both a competitor and a team player.
C'mon sisters, let's not just do it for ourselves, let's do it for each other.
But competition can call out the best in each of us when we recognize and model the strengths in others and choose not to capitalize on apparent weaknesses. In fact, that's the only way to be both a competitor and a team player.
C'mon sisters, let's not just do it for ourselves, let's do it for each other.
12
The problem, you see, is toxic femininity and toxic estrogen.
(Hmm... Why does that phrase remind me of something?)
I am so tired of the endless male/testosterone bashing. Finally, we read an article acknowledging that women compete too, but here, the feminist rationalizes it. (And, by default, continues to assume that masculinity is toxic.)
Shall we summarize?
When men get together, we insult each other and don't mean a word of it.
When women get together, they compliment each other and don't mean a word of it.
Moral of the story: men are not that bad, and women are not saints. Feminists: get thee off the pedestal.
(Hmm... Why does that phrase remind me of something?)
I am so tired of the endless male/testosterone bashing. Finally, we read an article acknowledging that women compete too, but here, the feminist rationalizes it. (And, by default, continues to assume that masculinity is toxic.)
Shall we summarize?
When men get together, we insult each other and don't mean a word of it.
When women get together, they compliment each other and don't mean a word of it.
Moral of the story: men are not that bad, and women are not saints. Feminists: get thee off the pedestal.
82
I think you entirely missed the point.
24
Really, can you send me some links to all of that male bashing?
I haven't found any and I'd really like to see it.
I haven't found any and I'd really like to see it.
9
Huh? I don't think you got the article at all.
The point is, women need to stop this nonsense and cooperate, so we have any chance at all of addressing the systemic discrimination that men heap upon us.
Women who get caught up in competing with other women are the worst thing for women, for feminism, for any hope that women will ever live as well or as freely as men ... it's a serious cancer on our gender and we will never be able to make serious progress toward righting the social systems that disadvantage us until we GROW UP.
This stupid behavior is doing women a LOT of damage and we need to talk about it and work on reducing it.
The point is, women need to stop this nonsense and cooperate, so we have any chance at all of addressing the systemic discrimination that men heap upon us.
Women who get caught up in competing with other women are the worst thing for women, for feminism, for any hope that women will ever live as well or as freely as men ... it's a serious cancer on our gender and we will never be able to make serious progress toward righting the social systems that disadvantage us until we GROW UP.
This stupid behavior is doing women a LOT of damage and we need to talk about it and work on reducing it.
7
"Feminist psychology chalks up this indirect aggression to internalizing the patriarchy"
Of course, what else. According to feminists, pretty much everything negative that happens to women or even if it is done by women seems to be the fault of men, one way or the other. It is so exhausting.
Of course, what else. According to feminists, pretty much everything negative that happens to women or even if it is done by women seems to be the fault of men, one way or the other. It is so exhausting.
9
No need to get defensive. Women aren't blaming the men of today. But we can't deny that the system was developed under patriarchal ideas. Given that we have evolved (if only a small amount) it is time to change them. Women would hope that men would see the need for some changes but find resistance amoung some who have not yet quite evolved as much as others. Therefore, we still live in a system with inherent patriarchy. It is changing; just more slowly than we would like. With men like you around things should become much better for the girls of today but for us who are grown we still struggle with the rules that are in place.
This article is only pointing out that it isn't only some men who hae not evolved. Some women haven't either. And the writer recognizes that if we expect change we are going to have to lead the way. Women must take responsibility for the way we treat other women. And that begins by recognizing that the way we treat other women is a reflection of our own beliefs learned in a patriarchal setting, as most of us have.
I am not sure why you would take offense to that. But I would be happy to hear it.
Oh, by the way, I am definitely a feminist. And I don't blame (hate) men.
This article is only pointing out that it isn't only some men who hae not evolved. Some women haven't either. And the writer recognizes that if we expect change we are going to have to lead the way. Women must take responsibility for the way we treat other women. And that begins by recognizing that the way we treat other women is a reflection of our own beliefs learned in a patriarchal setting, as most of us have.
I am not sure why you would take offense to that. But I would be happy to hear it.
Oh, by the way, I am definitely a feminist. And I don't blame (hate) men.
40
Please stop lying about the patriarchy.
There never was one. There was an oligarchy and almost all men were sent to die in wars for queens and kings. Most men could not vote until they owned land. Most men died young and were considered betas. Stop blaming men.
Even today, men get 63% more jail time for the same crime.
90% less funding for disease.
Boys are failing in schools but we obsess over girls in SMET.
We lie about the wage gap.
We lie campus rape hysteria
We whine about female body image in films and ignore how men are treated like hamburger in film -- to be shot when a death must happen.
Geez... feminists never stop whining long enough to see that the system is rigged against all of us, not just the privileged white female.
There never was one. There was an oligarchy and almost all men were sent to die in wars for queens and kings. Most men could not vote until they owned land. Most men died young and were considered betas. Stop blaming men.
Even today, men get 63% more jail time for the same crime.
90% less funding for disease.
Boys are failing in schools but we obsess over girls in SMET.
We lie about the wage gap.
We lie campus rape hysteria
We whine about female body image in films and ignore how men are treated like hamburger in film -- to be shot when a death must happen.
Geez... feminists never stop whining long enough to see that the system is rigged against all of us, not just the privileged white female.
13
You can blame them without hating them, you know. Because unless you want to deny history and the existence of patriarchy, they are totally responsible. Get over it.
7
Whatever the reason for adult women's frequently atrocious behavior toward each other, I am quite done with it. I didn't understand what was happening when the shift occurred during high school, and more than 20 years later, I can't be bothered wasting energy trying to find out. I work in an industry that male-oriented, so it's easier to avoid dealing with females in the workplace. Adult human females are rather like adult male lions-we'll only tolerate one of us in a given territory.
29
Sounds like you are describing alpha behavior in the workplace and generalizing it to all situations. Probably OK is you live in a jungle or never go home. ha ha
2
I write to you as a husband and a father of a daughter. What an intelligent courageous piece you have written. This should be read by all women and more importantly, the men they encounter (fathers first). When I teach self awareness and leadership I often tell my students - no matter what your personality, there are pluses and minuses to it. Forget the popular categories, normal is highly overrated. The key I tell them is to embrace who you are and accept that as a start. Charlie Seashore called it the "core of rot." We all have one but dare not see. When we do, we are free to live authentically. Emily, your piece is a tremendous service to all.
199
Great comment. I find it curious that the male readers pick up on this so quickly and see this type of behavior all the time among women. Most of the women readers on the other hand, are defensive and swear they've never encountered this type of behavior before. Like the author, I was an outcast so I was able to see how cruel women could be to each other. Give me a male friend any day.
14
Solidarity of the sisterhood is a myth and stereotype. There is NO such thing! The mean girls in high school grow up to become mobbers in workplaces. It is fact that women are crueler to other women and are targeted at a higher rate by female bullies (71%) than by male bullies (46%). I have had only negative experiences working for women. Working for other women has been hazardous to my Livelihood and career, and I don't care how un-PC it is to say so.
119
I see it too if only as as a contractor, stepping in and out of corporate offices. I don't think I could work in such an environment. To me it looks as if they are still using the "guiles" to achieve position instead of they minds. I also have not time for it. Although along the way I have found (and kept as business associates, and friends) several successful women for whom I am happy to work. I hope you do as well. They really can be wonderful to work for! I know I am!
4
"women are crueler to other women"
Ugly fact -- If you represent a man in a case of rape or abuse in which you have some hope for a defense, however weak, pick a female jury. That is counter-intuitive to lay people, but I've seen it play out many times.
Ugly fact -- If you represent a man in a case of rape or abuse in which you have some hope for a defense, however weak, pick a female jury. That is counter-intuitive to lay people, but I've seen it play out many times.
7
Sad to say, there is a lot of truth in what you say.
When will women get past this???
When will women get past this???
6
As Elmer Gantry says to the evangelist Sister Sharon in the movie of Sinclair Lewis’ novel, “Every woman competes with every other woman for every man.”.
5
I agree that female competition for men drives a lot of female-female jealousy post-puberty. The obviousness of this can be seen by observing how gay women don't usually engage in the behaviors bemoaned here.
1
Maybe 50 years ago. The world has changed, but perhaps not in Macedonia.
6
You're kidding, right? Most men aren't worth that; they're not even worth a second look. Or maybe they're into their own strange and twisted competition for women? Bizarre.
4
"Feminist psychology chalks up this indirect aggression to internalizing the patriarchy."
There you go. Blame men.
There you go. Blame men.
13
I think you may have misunderstood a fundamental theme in feminist theory. Understanding the psychology of women through the lens of patriarchy has nothing whatever to do with 'blaming men'. It has to do with exploring the difference between living in a patriarchal society as a woman and living in it as a man. That is what this author is doing.
87
Is that womanalysis?
5
I think it's just standard male sulking.
5
Multiply the competitiveness exponentially to include the relentless photoshopped images of artificial perfection in hypersaturated visual culture. It's bad for girls (and they/we take it out on ourselves and our sisters) but these images of "the ideal"are also bad for boys; filtering through their "male gaze" to be refracted back and forth into all of our mirrors. Now no one can be happy.
15
This is an excellent essay. In this time of great troubles, I hesitated in turning to read something as 'trivial' as the interplay between women, even though I am one. However, the essay is both enjoyable reading and broad in its implications. Gordon brings her theme all the way back to suggesting that women have a reproductive need to compete in a non-contact manner. She explores the fears and actions related to competing for a superior position, which is an aspect of life for all species. In the end, she beautifully weaves in a moment that we all likely have had when realizing that a stereotype we have placed on someone's shoulders is just that: a stereotype. We are all just trying to make our way through life, after all. This essay is a personally humble, brilliantly insightful work. Thanks.
3
Yes, this happen with girls and some young women; but not all. Women friends can also be kind, supportive, empathetic and caring. I value my relationship with many of them second only to some, not all, immediate family. These women are my sounding board. They are there for me when I need them to be. They don't try to fix things, but help me find my own way by listening. I hope I do the same for them. These women are out there, I hope you are lucky enough to find them.
32
I have never understood the drama that gets pulled into some women's orbit. It only seems like there are more of them than there are, because one bad apple can poison an entire group. I always figured it was unhappy people trying to make others as unhappy as they are. And it's not just women; men do it, too.
51
"We aren’t competing with other women, ultimately, but with ourselves — with how we think of ourselves."
That can get very self destructive.
I was shocked when by wonderful, bright, beautiful, talented little girl turned on herself. Her perfectionism about everything she worked at was turned on herself, so she could not possibly be good enough.
I had no idea she was doing that to herself. It took a therapist to help her through, and to explain to me for her. What? That's wrong. That's nuts. How can she think that? She is so obviously wonderful!
It is now under control, but I suspect it will always be a problem.
I also suspect it is lurking there, ready to trip up plenty of unsuspecting victims and their loved ones.
That can get very self destructive.
I was shocked when by wonderful, bright, beautiful, talented little girl turned on herself. Her perfectionism about everything she worked at was turned on herself, so she could not possibly be good enough.
I had no idea she was doing that to herself. It took a therapist to help her through, and to explain to me for her. What? That's wrong. That's nuts. How can she think that? She is so obviously wonderful!
It is now under control, but I suspect it will always be a problem.
I also suspect it is lurking there, ready to trip up plenty of unsuspecting victims and their loved ones.
44
Self Esteem. Pure and simple.
All the rest is just bla bla bla.
For women ,sadly it's all about beauty. That's just a reality.
For our boys, it's all about being the alpha male.
How do we instill in our children the wonder of the uniqueness in each of us when they are bombarded with obsurd ideals.
What's fascinating to me is that women compete with women for both men and personal advancement while men compete almost exclusivelybto advance their place in the world.
Why is that?
All the rest is just bla bla bla.
For women ,sadly it's all about beauty. That's just a reality.
For our boys, it's all about being the alpha male.
How do we instill in our children the wonder of the uniqueness in each of us when they are bombarded with obsurd ideals.
What's fascinating to me is that women compete with women for both men and personal advancement while men compete almost exclusivelybto advance their place in the world.
Why is that?
5
My perfectionist younger daughter worried us with a recent paper she wrote fro school. So I took her outside. In my hand I had a 2X4 grabbed from the garage. "See this 2X4, it's perfectly straight. There are no errors or imperfections or mistakes. It's utterly boring not very pretty." Then I pointed to an old, gnarled cherry tree. "See that tree, it's twisted and limbs are missing. A lot of bad things happened to that tree, it made a lot of mistakes. The tree is much more beautiful than the 2X4, isn't it?" She agreed. "So... be the tree, not the 2X4. It's good to make mistakes. It's good to be imperfect"
It's become a regular phrase, "Be the tree not the 2X4."
I hope it grafts.
It's become a regular phrase, "Be the tree not the 2X4."
I hope it grafts.
174
You honestly think men don't compete for women? Man, are you mistaken.
26
I don't by any means suggest that there are not substantial societal and cultural influences on our behavior.
But, at its most fundamental core our behavior is Darwinian. We can cry out in indignation that all is a matter of personal choice. It is, and certainly we have the ability and the responsibility to control ourselves, but like it or not we are driven by primal forces. We always have been and always will be.