This is what you get when you create bubbles and make a gold rush out of any and everything.
12
Shouldn't we fault the American Bar Association for its loose, antiquated standards for accrediting these sham law schools?
48
what is the supply side to this problem. do we really need that many lawyers and law schools?
17
We want to live in a cooperative, supportive society, not an adversarial, litigious one.
11
Wow awesome article, thank you for bringing attention to this matter nytimes. I almost applied to law school earlier this year and decided not to. Very glad I made this choice.
33
Where has the NYT been? This has been happening to students all across the academic spectrum. It's just more pronounced, or on a larger scale in professional schools.
It represents the criminal, economic exploitation of this generation by my generation, the baby boomers, as we cost shift the burden of higher education onto our kids. The student loan crisis has been generated by Republicans looking for low taxes and Democrats looking to fund other, competing social programs. The only solution is to MAKE PUBLIC SCHOOLS PUBLIC WITH DEBT FREE DEGREES (right on, Bernie Sanders!)
If students want to borrow money to go to private schools, OK. Debt-free degrees in public schools can be done with a Medcaid-type formula that requires states to pay their fair share while holding the public schools accountable to the public.
Also note, the Obama administration has made this problem worse by cutting Pell grants to graduate and professional students. This was a bad idea that deprives poor students the opportunity for post-bac education, so they have to take out more loans.
Finally, for-profits should not be eligible for public, financial aid money. That should be limited to public schools, not funneled through a "college" to generate profits for a corporation.
It represents the criminal, economic exploitation of this generation by my generation, the baby boomers, as we cost shift the burden of higher education onto our kids. The student loan crisis has been generated by Republicans looking for low taxes and Democrats looking to fund other, competing social programs. The only solution is to MAKE PUBLIC SCHOOLS PUBLIC WITH DEBT FREE DEGREES (right on, Bernie Sanders!)
If students want to borrow money to go to private schools, OK. Debt-free degrees in public schools can be done with a Medcaid-type formula that requires states to pay their fair share while holding the public schools accountable to the public.
Also note, the Obama administration has made this problem worse by cutting Pell grants to graduate and professional students. This was a bad idea that deprives poor students the opportunity for post-bac education, so they have to take out more loans.
Finally, for-profits should not be eligible for public, financial aid money. That should be limited to public schools, not funneled through a "college" to generate profits for a corporation.
53
Tell me why I should worry about wanna-be lawyers who are too stupid to see that their academic records say a career in the law is not for them.
8
And more law students could get jobs as public defenders!
6
I have trouble believing someone who could get into any law school -- taking LSATs, graduating from an undergraduate college -- would not do do diligence on a school like Florida Coastal, in which case it's caveat emptor.
7
Conclusion: The guys selling the loans are smarter than the lawyers?
15
THE 1% STRIKE AGAIN AT THE 99% In the form of predatory lending by the Banksters and Economic Terrorists who knowingly accept unqualified students. Why? Because it's all about the Bottom Line All The Time!
Gouging students and then taxpayers to pay loans means that the law schools have managed to game the market so that it's fixed in their favor. Obama needs to issue an Executive Order denying Federal contracts to people in those law schools who are instrumental in gouging as many people as they can without regard to the quality or success of its students and graduates. The funds must be redirected to resources for community legal services.
The private gambling parlor structure that the law schools have struck upon as their financial model looks less like the Free Market (yeah--free to whom?) than high risk financial investors setting up the whole country for the collapse of their banks. Just like in 2008. We're not over the Great Recession 1.0 and the Great Recession 2.0 is already in the pipeline. In this scenario, clearly government is not the problem! No. Unscrupulous banksters rain down economic terrorism on taxpayers. How do they deal with the destruction they have wrought? To paraphrase Liberace, They laugh all the way to the bank.
Gouging students and then taxpayers to pay loans means that the law schools have managed to game the market so that it's fixed in their favor. Obama needs to issue an Executive Order denying Federal contracts to people in those law schools who are instrumental in gouging as many people as they can without regard to the quality or success of its students and graduates. The funds must be redirected to resources for community legal services.
The private gambling parlor structure that the law schools have struck upon as their financial model looks less like the Free Market (yeah--free to whom?) than high risk financial investors setting up the whole country for the collapse of their banks. Just like in 2008. We're not over the Great Recession 1.0 and the Great Recession 2.0 is already in the pipeline. In this scenario, clearly government is not the problem! No. Unscrupulous banksters rain down economic terrorism on taxpayers. How do they deal with the destruction they have wrought? To paraphrase Liberace, They laugh all the way to the bank.
15
It's not that so many law schools are corrupt. It's that schools are corrupt. Like, sports programs, law schools don't stand alone (in most cases). They are part of a corrupt organization. It is the sepsis at the top that sends its poison throughout the system, all the way down to K-12, and from the there to our whole society.
Thomas Jefferson put it well.
“…Preach…a crusade against ignorance…improve the law for educating the common people. Let our countrymen know that the people alone can protect us against…evil, and that…kings, priests and nobles…will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance…”
(For the details on how this is happening, read my blog, inside-higher-ed , and this paper's excellent reporting on education.)
Thomas Jefferson put it well.
“…Preach…a crusade against ignorance…improve the law for educating the common people. Let our countrymen know that the people alone can protect us against…evil, and that…kings, priests and nobles…will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance…”
(For the details on how this is happening, read my blog, inside-higher-ed , and this paper's excellent reporting on education.)
11
Maybe everyone should stop glamorizing attorneys.
14
If you walked into my office prior to my retirement, you would have seen the following on the wall: (B.A.) Harvard College; (J.D.) Yale, Bar Licenses (N.Y., C.A., D.C.).
A word to the wise: look what's on the wall or check the lawyer's credentials before you sit down with him/her.
Even the students who "graduate" from these diploma mills and squeak through a bar exam are incompetent. Imagine going to a physician of this calibre.
Oh, and by the way, there is a movement afoot to eliminate the need for these "graduates" to pass a bar exam in order to practice law.
A word to the wise: look what's on the wall or check the lawyer's credentials before you sit down with him/her.
Even the students who "graduate" from these diploma mills and squeak through a bar exam are incompetent. Imagine going to a physician of this calibre.
Oh, and by the way, there is a movement afoot to eliminate the need for these "graduates" to pass a bar exam in order to practice law.
20
the obvious answer answer is to close the lowest performing schools. obvious but ignored in this article.
14
Just another "market" screwed up by "well-intentioned" federal government intervention. Dem. and Rep.
Want to get rid of these parasite schools?. End these programs.
Want to get rid of these parasite schools?. End these programs.
7
"American law schools are increasingly charging outrageously high tuition and sticking taxpayers with the tab for loan defaults when students fail to become lawyers."
What is the problem? This sounds like the perfect metaphor for America.
In the late 1970s I had to grades and the smarts to get into law school or medical school. Medical school didn't interest me, but I did take the LSAT. My score was only okay, I would have had to re-take to get in. But what struck me most about taking the LSAT was how stupid many of the questions were, i.e., how twisted the reasoning was that was required to answer the question. I didn't re-take the LSAT or go to law school. Just taking the LSAT told me that I did not want to be an attorney.
What is the problem? This sounds like the perfect metaphor for America.
In the late 1970s I had to grades and the smarts to get into law school or medical school. Medical school didn't interest me, but I did take the LSAT. My score was only okay, I would have had to re-take to get in. But what struck me most about taking the LSAT was how stupid many of the questions were, i.e., how twisted the reasoning was that was required to answer the question. I didn't re-take the LSAT or go to law school. Just taking the LSAT told me that I did not want to be an attorney.
9
The answer is to give students FREE tuition in exchange for 10 years of work as a lawyer for the public sector. Those willing to do the pro bono work and the low paying work for low income clients deserve free tuition. If they get the free tuition and then decide to go into private practice immediately, then they should owe all the money back. Will this ever happen? No, because how much does America really care about those who live in poverty. The GOP does not care at all. The Democrats say they care....but can't get any legislation to raise taxes passed because the GOP does not want to help those who can't help themselves.
26
The real scam: Congress giving anyone something for nothing, and leaving taxpayers to pay the bills. When this scam stops, then America will prosper.
14
this is similar to the sub-prime lending scam. Probably the sales staff are the same individuals
26
Where is the culpability of the student, who, after receiving a pathetic LSAT score, fails to say him or herself "maybe I am not cut out to be a lawyer and shouldn't incur $150k of debt" (thereby proving again that they aren't capable of being in a profession requiring logic skills )?
Or, maybe being shrewd if not smart, that aspiring student says. "Wow, I don't have to pay back my loans if it doesn't work out, the taxpayers of this country will bail me out. What a great deal!"
Just another case of liberals blaming someone else (the law school) for the stupidity of the government and the lack of personal responsibility of the individual. Housing crisis anyone?
Or, maybe being shrewd if not smart, that aspiring student says. "Wow, I don't have to pay back my loans if it doesn't work out, the taxpayers of this country will bail me out. What a great deal!"
Just another case of liberals blaming someone else (the law school) for the stupidity of the government and the lack of personal responsibility of the individual. Housing crisis anyone?
13
Here is the thing, we need another lawyer, or lawyer trained, person like we need more TV pitchmen or used car salesman. Law is a fascinating subject to those of us who couldn't handle the math/science to be dictors or engineers but there are already so many lawyers that it makes one wonder how much the worst of them, ambulance chasers aka personal injury lawyers who won't turn away undeserving clients because "someone else will take them" , suck out of our economy for their own wallets. An unemployed lawyer is as about as sympathetic as an unemployed stock broker or politician.
10
People applying to law schools are not children. They are at least 22 years old. They know the level of work they did in college and if they are realistic they know how valuable their college degree is. They also are armed with their LSAT percentile.
You may have the fantasy of being a lawyer but if you can't honestly assess your performance as an undergraduate student don't be surprised if reality and the legal market hit you squarely in the face.
It seems these PLUS loans need to have higher standards for the borrowers and for the law schools they are being used for.
The legal profession is a noble meaningful profession that requires the best and brightest minds. The barrier for entry should be high.
You may have the fantasy of being a lawyer but if you can't honestly assess your performance as an undergraduate student don't be surprised if reality and the legal market hit you squarely in the face.
It seems these PLUS loans need to have higher standards for the borrowers and for the law schools they are being used for.
The legal profession is a noble meaningful profession that requires the best and brightest minds. The barrier for entry should be high.
12
Public schools do a really awful job teaching the basics of law and government to all students.
3
i plan on using my law degree in another country. i am ok.
signed,
current cornell law student.
signed,
current cornell law student.
2
"If fewer federal dollars were streaming into law schools’ coffers and more were directed to fund legal services organizations, the legal profession — and the American legal system as a whole — would be better for it."
If Medicare payments are anything to go by, this is not going to do much to get better legal services for the indigent.
If Medicare payments are anything to go by, this is not going to do much to get better legal services for the indigent.
3
Here is an idea. Make the schools guarantee student debt. Why should this be a taxpayer risk? Student doesn't pay; school should.
9
Curtailing or repealing unlimited federal GradPLUS loans is often floated as a quick fix to the law school debt crisis. Lamentably, it is not. From the NYT's 2011 article "Law School Economics: Ka-Ching!," we earned that "From 1989 to 2009, when college tuition rose by 71 percent, law school tuition shot up 317 percent." Yet GradPLUS loans only came into existence in 2006. What, pray tell, filled the gap before that time, when one could only borrow a total of about $60,000 in federal student loans for law school - at a time when could cost 3x that amount?
Private student loans. Loans that are similarly not dischargeable in bankruptcy, but also bundled into asset-backed securities and sold to institutional investors. Sallie Mae and her peers would love to reclaim more of this business, and in fact a foundation created and funded by SLM called Lumina has been bankrolling anti-GradPLUS loan studies for years. Another private lender, AccessGroup, is a "nonprofit membership organization comprised of nearly 200 nonprofit and state-affiliated ABA-approved law schools." Yes, the accredited law schools effectively own a student lending company. Any notion that these (and other) lenders wouldn't step in to fill the lending gap immediately is hopelessly naïve. Not only will cutting GradPLUS not cut tuition, but private loans are not eligible for income-based repayment plans, so grads would have 4-figure loan payments a few months after graduation regardless of employment.
Private student loans. Loans that are similarly not dischargeable in bankruptcy, but also bundled into asset-backed securities and sold to institutional investors. Sallie Mae and her peers would love to reclaim more of this business, and in fact a foundation created and funded by SLM called Lumina has been bankrolling anti-GradPLUS loan studies for years. Another private lender, AccessGroup, is a "nonprofit membership organization comprised of nearly 200 nonprofit and state-affiliated ABA-approved law schools." Yes, the accredited law schools effectively own a student lending company. Any notion that these (and other) lenders wouldn't step in to fill the lending gap immediately is hopelessly naïve. Not only will cutting GradPLUS not cut tuition, but private loans are not eligible for income-based repayment plans, so grads would have 4-figure loan payments a few months after graduation regardless of employment.
7
When the hourly charge rate of many lawyers, or legal corporations, are reviewed it is obvious that there should be no sympathy. Only in the U.S.A. do lawyers garner incomes grossly out of proportion to their value to society, and frequently their mediocre intellectual acuity. Worse yet, many lawyers segway to positions of elected leadership. What did The Barb write? -- "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." [Henry The Sixth, Part 2 Act 4, scene 2, 71–78]
3
Wonderful of them to note the lack of legal services for the poor at the same time these crap law schools are raking it in. Great article.
9
This article gets it wrong starting with the second sentence: "students with scores this low are unlikely to ever pass the bar exam."
Says who? the LSAT has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with law school or one's ability to be a good lawyer. It is a standardized test that measures skills that are, at best, a measure of certain kinds of thinking. Standardized tests have their place, but this comment by the administrators reeks of an organization that is attempting to justify their existence.
The reality is that the LSAT itself is a sham of an industry. It takes hundreds of dollars to take the test, and, if you want to be competitive among your peers, thousands to take a prep course. It is a multi-million dollar industry that could probably disappear overnight and not make a difference in the quality of applications who go to law school.
Personally, I think if a student goes to law school knowing the odds that it will yield such a poor return on investment, they get what they deserve. But that is a different argument...for now, let's start on how they get in there to begin with.
Says who? the LSAT has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with law school or one's ability to be a good lawyer. It is a standardized test that measures skills that are, at best, a measure of certain kinds of thinking. Standardized tests have their place, but this comment by the administrators reeks of an organization that is attempting to justify their existence.
The reality is that the LSAT itself is a sham of an industry. It takes hundreds of dollars to take the test, and, if you want to be competitive among your peers, thousands to take a prep course. It is a multi-million dollar industry that could probably disappear overnight and not make a difference in the quality of applications who go to law school.
Personally, I think if a student goes to law school knowing the odds that it will yield such a poor return on investment, they get what they deserve. But that is a different argument...for now, let's start on how they get in there to begin with.
10
Unscrupulous and predatory. And these are people "teaching law."
9
FYI, I'm filing a complaint with the ABA concerning law students at Michigan State University College of Law who don't even attend class and fulfill the ABA requirement to become lawyers . . . but then go on to become lawyers because the system is so corrupt. . . and then because of the grading curve, students who attend but do not perform as well fail and have to pay back loans without any professional degree at all. Hooray!
4
What is the American bar association doing to stop these diploma mills?
18
And who exactly is accrediting these failed institutions?
13
I taught law for three decades and took early retirement before the 'crash' which you describe. But even in the law schools' heyday, there were always some which were less than ethical. I had some students who had extremely high LSAT and Grade Point numbers and as a result had been admitted to law schools to which they had never applied. This enabled those schools to publish highly misleading numbers for "students admitted" which was very different from the numbers for entering students.
12
"The consequences of this free flow of federal loans have been entirely predictable: Law schools jacked up tuition and accepted more students." How come the NYT doesn't recognize that this is exactly what's happened throughout higher education?
27
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
6
Crisis ? ? ? WHAT 'crisis? ? Fewer people to take and/or pass the bar exam will be a benefit, and could even result in paying-off student debts. Speaking of student debts and legal obligations, I would expect that each and every legal student would understand that a debt is something entered into voluntarily and must be paid back to the lender, no matter how long it takes. Of course, we all know who will have to pay-off all student debts: thee and me, as is always the case.
No kidding, the appeal to attend a 'law school" and then wait for those clients to just come rolling in is very alluring. Like the art academies now, and the cooking schools with promises of the pot of gold after graduation from a "prestigious" school, have left a lot of young people in serious debt.
4
Law school. Here are two words of advice: STAY AWAY. The job market suck. The lucky few who earn large salaries work like slaves for them. In a word, don't. Can't anyone catch on this patently obvious fact. Do five minutes worth of Googling. This country graduates about 3X as many lawyers as it needs.
11
Simple. Govt should get out of the higher ed loan business. Just like it should have stayed out of the Solyndra business. Payment/ loan guarantees guarantee fraud.
5
This is another instance of the whole ruthless mentality that people are just pockets to be picked. And this quote struck me: "— to maintain enrollment numbers, law schools have had to lower their admissions standards." God forbid they should implement the old models of downsizing, or having a sale, or lowering prices to bring in new customers. No. Better we should impoverish our youth with worthless certificates--if they get that far.
5
My son, after 6 years in the Army, went to law school, graduated cum laude, passed the bar exam first try, but could not find a job for a year. He is now a deputy prosecutor. But it bugs him and me that he makes $40K a year less than he made as an Army captain in Iraq. We are turning out more lawyers than we need. We are exploiting our young people.
57
I'm having a hard time with this. First we have columns about poor 17 year olds who have no idea what they are doing and signing being saddled with lifelong debt, but now we have college graduates that were smart enough to get into law school complaining about the choice they made to take on huge debt too? Someone in the range of 25 years old is now allowed to say they were duped? Really? When does it end?
I am all for refinancing, lower rates, etc., but forgiveness should be off the table unless the degree is rescinded. And before anyone mentions credit card debt being dischargeable, I don't think that should be the case. If you borrow money, you should have to pay it back. Make the payments reasonable and manageable, but no one should be able to spent a ton of money on something for themselves and then have others pick up the tab.
I am all for refinancing, lower rates, etc., but forgiveness should be off the table unless the degree is rescinded. And before anyone mentions credit card debt being dischargeable, I don't think that should be the case. If you borrow money, you should have to pay it back. Make the payments reasonable and manageable, but no one should be able to spent a ton of money on something for themselves and then have others pick up the tab.
12
Too dumb to be a lawyer and too dumb to see a life ruining scam. Legitimate law school reject applicants who have low LSAT scores. Their object is to graduate competent attorneys.
I majored in psychology in college and at 23 I held a masters degree and had began work on a Ph.D. At 24, newly married I decided that I would be a rotten psychologist.
I left grad school and I worked as a claims adjuster for an insurance company and loved it. The office was 3 blocks from NY Law School and the manager told me I was wasting time I should go to law school at night as was my immediate superior. When I was admitted I would me moved to legal.
I began at 26 and was admitted to the NY Bar in 1964. I was 2nd in my class and I went on to get an LLM, also at night. I had a 40 year career as a trial and appellate lawyer and eventually had my own 6 lawyer firm doing trial defense work on major cases. I could not wait to get to work and never borrowed a dime but we lived on 2 salaries. That is the magic of night school.
There are too many that think a law school diploma will solve their problem but you need to pass the bar exam and that’s the question to ask: what percentage of those who enroll pass the bar and are admitted to practice. But only the govt can protect the dumb from themselves .
I majored in psychology in college and at 23 I held a masters degree and had began work on a Ph.D. At 24, newly married I decided that I would be a rotten psychologist.
I left grad school and I worked as a claims adjuster for an insurance company and loved it. The office was 3 blocks from NY Law School and the manager told me I was wasting time I should go to law school at night as was my immediate superior. When I was admitted I would me moved to legal.
I began at 26 and was admitted to the NY Bar in 1964. I was 2nd in my class and I went on to get an LLM, also at night. I had a 40 year career as a trial and appellate lawyer and eventually had my own 6 lawyer firm doing trial defense work on major cases. I could not wait to get to work and never borrowed a dime but we lived on 2 salaries. That is the magic of night school.
There are too many that think a law school diploma will solve their problem but you need to pass the bar exam and that’s the question to ask: what percentage of those who enroll pass the bar and are admitted to practice. But only the govt can protect the dumb from themselves .
5
We are a nation of laws so we need lots of lawyers. It would seem to me that some of our lawyers should be smart enough to know how to provide us with a law that would prevent this law school debt crisis. Perhaps there are no scheme proof laws but surely we deserve better from our Legislature.
2
In addition to all the steps cited to lower tuition and reverse the trend of accepting clearly unqualified candidates I suggest a loan forgiveness program for those willing to serve as full-time public defenders. Four years credit for four years served.
11
Public funds should be used to help all Americans get a public and college education. Graduate education should put students on their own, still able to get grants, scholarships and loans, but no access to public funds. It's only fair. The corporations who lent the money to defaulters should shoulder the burden, NOT ME, the taxpayer. Nobody else is paying for my financial mistakes. I don't wish to see my taxes used to bail out any more lenders.
6
There are too many law schools and too many lawyers. There should not be a law school available for "anyone" who wants to be a lawyer. There's nothing wrong with only a percentage of all law applicants actually getting into a law school - those not cut out for the study of law will have better economic outcomes if they instead choose another path, rather than spend huge amounts on a law education at a third-rate school only to find no law jobs available. Lets cut the number of law schools.
21
Shouldn't the ball and chain the illustration also be attached to the taxpayer.
"after many of the students fail to become lawyers, sticking taxpayers with the tab for their loan defaults."
"after many of the students fail to become lawyers, sticking taxpayers with the tab for their loan defaults."
10
Comparing the legal situation today to that of twenty years ago is ridiculous and young attorneys don't need to hear how someone who graduated in the 60s/70s/80s was able to pay off their loans within 10 years by hanging a shingle and getting to it. If you were lucky enough to do that, then good for you--I envy you--but that's not the real world anymore. And saying, well, you just need to work harder is also not helpful. There are plenty of people who go to law school who shouldn't be since they see it as some golden egg--although those people in the last few years are becoming few and far between for the reasons that the article points out. But, regardless, hindsight is 20/20. And hindsight that was only applicable in the pre-recession age is even more useless.
It's not the number of lawyers out there that's the problem; it's the outrageous tuition costs. As the article correctly points out, there are unbelievable numbers of underserved populations that desperately needs legal services but most young attorneys can't afford to take those low paying jobs in the middle of nowhere with soul crushing debt hanging over our heads. And the grants necessary to be able to take those jobs without being homeless yourself are few and far between.
Not to mention, the recession has disinclined many from retiring and thereby freeing up the space for those next in line. Thus, the inability for new attorneys to find stable, well-paying jobs.
It's not the number of lawyers out there that's the problem; it's the outrageous tuition costs. As the article correctly points out, there are unbelievable numbers of underserved populations that desperately needs legal services but most young attorneys can't afford to take those low paying jobs in the middle of nowhere with soul crushing debt hanging over our heads. And the grants necessary to be able to take those jobs without being homeless yourself are few and far between.
Not to mention, the recession has disinclined many from retiring and thereby freeing up the space for those next in line. Thus, the inability for new attorneys to find stable, well-paying jobs.
49
How many bubbles does the federal government have to cause before we stop making this mistake? The housing bubble that started around 2004, and corresponding crash of 2008-9, is only the most recent example. Now we have the law school debt bubble caused be the federal government giving out free money, and as others have noted, we have the college education debt bubble.
The unfortunate reality is that if you borrow money you have to pay it back. Borrower beware and lender beware -- both need to do their homework on who is lending to who and for what purpose. The Federal government should not be in the business of lending money -- it is too biased towards meeting a societal goal. No Fannie or Freddie and no Direct PLUS loan programs.
As for public defenders, I don't see why cities, states and the federal government cant fund a student's legal education in exchange for civil legal service of a given duration. Just like ROTC.
The unfortunate reality is that if you borrow money you have to pay it back. Borrower beware and lender beware -- both need to do their homework on who is lending to who and for what purpose. The Federal government should not be in the business of lending money -- it is too biased towards meeting a societal goal. No Fannie or Freddie and no Direct PLUS loan programs.
As for public defenders, I don't see why cities, states and the federal government cant fund a student's legal education in exchange for civil legal service of a given duration. Just like ROTC.
32
'...American law schools are increasingly charging outrageously high tuition and sticking taxpayers with the tab for loan defaults when students fail to become lawyers...'
This is reason that student loan debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy.
That students do not investigate the reputation of their school or the job potential in their chosen field is indeed unfortunate, but no one except the student and the school should be responsible for paying for their poor decisions in life.
This is reason that student loan debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy.
That students do not investigate the reputation of their school or the job potential in their chosen field is indeed unfortunate, but no one except the student and the school should be responsible for paying for their poor decisions in life.
13
You hit the nail on the head. If there is a shortage of lawyers willing to be public defenders or provide civil legal services, then attack that problem directly. It's a very spurious argument that all law students should be subsidized at the public's expense in the off chance that some of them will somehow or someday provide public services. More generally, the federal government should get out of the business of subsidizing college loans. If the voting public decides they want to help students from poor families go to college or encourage students to pursue specific majors, the aid should be explicitly targeted to achieve those objectives rather than the shotgun approach used at present.
3
The article states that "Florida Coastal…stick[s] taxpayers with the tab for their loan defaults." Is this accurate in any way? 1) These are not FC's loan defaults. 2) How is the taxpayer stuck with defaults? What percentage are discharged in bankruptcy or otherwise? Student loans have been one of the most difficult type of debts to avoid paying. This sentence is inaccurate and unclear. It is easy to say that the taxpayer are stuck with the defaulted loans, but how does this occur and what is the percentage of debt that never gets repaid? Sloppy journalism.
7
I'm a former law school adjunct prof who begrudgingly quit teaching last year after 14 years. I loved teaching and found it to be a nice change of pace from my regular day job. However, over the course of the last 4-5 years, I have seen the quality of law student drop so low that one day last year I found myself asking the entire class, by a show of hands, if their high school or college english/humanities classes had taught basic grammar and sentence structure. I had to ban use of the semi colon because absolutely no one knew how to properly use one. There was one student who only wrote with run-on sentences and he failed to use commas - ever. One person in class had to represent the "appellee", but he repeatedly spelled it "apley"- after I had corrected it 3 times.
When asked if I was going to return to teach, I was very honest with the dean when I said that I just can't do it anymore. I didn't sign up to teach 8th grade writing, and that's all I had been teaching for close to 5 years. It should be glaringly obvious to anyone who teaches law that the schools are so desperate they will take anyone who can fill out the application. They don't even need to sign their name in the correct place on the application, and I know this because I know of a couple of recent law grads who still may not know where to properly sign.
It's sad. The profession has enough problems. Granting admission and loan money to anyone with a pulse is going to do it in.
When asked if I was going to return to teach, I was very honest with the dean when I said that I just can't do it anymore. I didn't sign up to teach 8th grade writing, and that's all I had been teaching for close to 5 years. It should be glaringly obvious to anyone who teaches law that the schools are so desperate they will take anyone who can fill out the application. They don't even need to sign their name in the correct place on the application, and I know this because I know of a couple of recent law grads who still may not know where to properly sign.
It's sad. The profession has enough problems. Granting admission and loan money to anyone with a pulse is going to do it in.
42
Free money in the form of student loans with little or no barrier to default has created the Frankenstein of high college tuition across the board, not just in law
schools. If there were a larger out of pocket investments by studentsf perhaps we would have had, by now, alternatives to country club university educations, not necessary to achieving good paying jobs. Our health care system suffers from the same incredible inflation and high costs. Free the consumer of either education or health care to vote with their money and demand that both systems reshape and reinvent themselves. Let the likes of Amazon, Google, Facebook, Uber reinvent education and health care options that are affordable, accessible and of high value to everyone.
schools. If there were a larger out of pocket investments by studentsf perhaps we would have had, by now, alternatives to country club university educations, not necessary to achieving good paying jobs. Our health care system suffers from the same incredible inflation and high costs. Free the consumer of either education or health care to vote with their money and demand that both systems reshape and reinvent themselves. Let the likes of Amazon, Google, Facebook, Uber reinvent education and health care options that are affordable, accessible and of high value to everyone.
1
I cannot believe that the democratic candidates are talking about free higher education for all, and this proves it. Not everyone needs higher education, and not everyone is smart enough or motivated enough for it. A bank would not lend me money to mortgage a house that is falling down- there is no value and the risk to the lender is too high. Likewise, there is no collateral on lending money to a lousy student to attend a lousy school. The loans should not be given, and liberals should realize that it is a poor investment. More importantly, where is the individual responsibility? The students are responsible for their own debt. The best education you can give someone is to say "You are responsible for your actions. Period. Do not blame others for your bad choices." I saw in medical school "underprivileged" students getting huge tuition grants, only to fail academically. Repeatedly. And get more grants to repeat courses. Just plain dumb to throw good money after bad.
8
While I find it honorable Bernie Sanders idea to provide taxpayer paid college tuition for all, it will open the door for more for-profit colleges with no intention of graduating anyone with a meaningful degree and more law school students that are unprepared for law schools and bar exam. For that matter it will flood the streets with unprepared graduates in any major.
5
As an attorney, I agree with the editorial. There is much to condemn with the current law school model in this country. But stories about the bait-and-switch in legal education have circulating in the media for ten years or more, and yet prospective law students - apparently increasingly unqualified - continue to think they will get the golden ticket to a big firm job paying big bucks. These are adults making individual choices, and surely some responsibility rests with them as well.
11
The whole enterprise of bad law schools is indeed scandalous. What also is scandalous, however, is that good law schools (and undergraduate colleges) can charge so much in tuition.
I went to an Ivy League school for undergrad and a top 25 law school and now owe just a frightening amount of money in loans. I'll be paying these loans off for the next 15 years (I graduated from law school at the height of the Great Recession, so that's over 20 years of loan payments). I am in a good job that by normal standards pays okay, but not if you consider the loan payments I have to make each month, which are equivalent to a mortgage. With normal costs of living and having a family, I am unable to save any money to speak of and can never get ahead. It's truly paycheck to paycheck. And I'm stuck. I'm unable to change careers because I can't take on more debt to go to school. Do I take a second job at low pay and never see my family?
When I'm close to 50 I'll finally have paid off my debt. Just in time for my kids to go to college. At least I won't let them make the same mistake I made. In the meantime, it would be nice if we could find a way to lower tuition to make college and graduate school actually affordable for a middle class that is increasingly living less securely.
I went to an Ivy League school for undergrad and a top 25 law school and now owe just a frightening amount of money in loans. I'll be paying these loans off for the next 15 years (I graduated from law school at the height of the Great Recession, so that's over 20 years of loan payments). I am in a good job that by normal standards pays okay, but not if you consider the loan payments I have to make each month, which are equivalent to a mortgage. With normal costs of living and having a family, I am unable to save any money to speak of and can never get ahead. It's truly paycheck to paycheck. And I'm stuck. I'm unable to change careers because I can't take on more debt to go to school. Do I take a second job at low pay and never see my family?
When I'm close to 50 I'll finally have paid off my debt. Just in time for my kids to go to college. At least I won't let them make the same mistake I made. In the meantime, it would be nice if we could find a way to lower tuition to make college and graduate school actually affordable for a middle class that is increasingly living less securely.
29
Probably the best way to curb student loan abuse is to make the schools co-sign for the loans - of course, the order of responsibility should be: 1) the student, 2) close relative(s) and 3) the school. If the first two are unable to keep up with the loan payments, well, the school gets to chip in. All three parties would be responsible, so no one gets off the hook. The school would have an awful amount of incentive to select students who could pay back the loan amount. This method would also reveal the real quality of the school - and (hopefully) would drive diploma mills out of business (through bankruptcy - although you would see educational Ponzi schemes emerge - but those die quickly..)
3
The biggest scam and the biggest drain on innocent people is the Federal government. The whole bloated mess of 4 million plus federal workers, an ever evolving web of regulations, and taxation with its cradle to grave (and beyond!) consumption of our dwindling earnings is more a ball and chain than a government serving its people. Are we actually safe? Are our roads and bridges in good shape. Our schools are systemically unable to graduate the next generation of leaders. The real problem has so much less to do with the debt of young people hoping to beat the odds and find work after earning a law degree than a government that is day in and day out draining the blood of its own constituents. What Florida Coastal School of Law is doing is child's play compared to what our own government is doing.
5
A law degree once was more academic than professional. The study of jurisprudence, legal history, social justice, government -- gleaned through millennia of learned opinion -- is unlike any other discipline. Now, because the J.D. has been reduced by necessity and the accrediting organizations to uniform lawyer-cutter programs, such depth and insight is available only in graduate programs. That is why we have so many lawyers and so few legal scholars.
6
Why doesn't the government require it law student borrowers to work off their loans by working post-graduation for the poor? The law school graduates work off their loan for a period of five years, say. Medical programs and teachers' programs have such loans. This is overdue in the law profession.
13
The fundamental flaw with the entire process is painfully obvious pointed out in the first paragraph of the article.
"In 2013, the median LSAT score of students admitted to Florida Coastal School of Law was in the bottom quarter of all test-takers nationwide. According to the test’s administrators, students with scores this low are unlikely to ever pass the bar exam."
Can their be any excuse for spending public money on such students who will likely end of defaulting on debt without a job as a lawyer? The student ends up starting life financially hopeless and likely to receive continued welfare in the form of unpaid loans., Can the motivation of the elected policy makers be anything other than a combination of the desire for donations from colleges, the desire for votes from a dependent class including students and their families and the employees of the colleges, and misguided ideologically based thinking.
This is not at all the same as investing in promising low income students who are likely to end up working in their field of study.
A truly free market would take care of this problem. Entities in a Free Market that invest money foolishly don't have it for long. The government, has a huge supply of money it gets parasitically through direct taxation, or borrowing money taxpayers will later have to repay.
Another example of why we are 19 trillion dollars in debt and still running at a deficit.
John
"In 2013, the median LSAT score of students admitted to Florida Coastal School of Law was in the bottom quarter of all test-takers nationwide. According to the test’s administrators, students with scores this low are unlikely to ever pass the bar exam."
Can their be any excuse for spending public money on such students who will likely end of defaulting on debt without a job as a lawyer? The student ends up starting life financially hopeless and likely to receive continued welfare in the form of unpaid loans., Can the motivation of the elected policy makers be anything other than a combination of the desire for donations from colleges, the desire for votes from a dependent class including students and their families and the employees of the colleges, and misguided ideologically based thinking.
This is not at all the same as investing in promising low income students who are likely to end up working in their field of study.
A truly free market would take care of this problem. Entities in a Free Market that invest money foolishly don't have it for long. The government, has a huge supply of money it gets parasitically through direct taxation, or borrowing money taxpayers will later have to repay.
Another example of why we are 19 trillion dollars in debt and still running at a deficit.
John
13
My first job out of law school was working for legal aid. And it was absolutely one of the most intellectually and spiritually enriching experiences of my professional career. But sadly I had to seek other employment opportunities after just three years because my salary was barely above the poverty level (and I had loans to repay). This editorial is spot-on, especially the last paragraph. Why do we spend so much on duplicitous (diploma-mill) law schools and so little on laudable legal services and public defender organizations? I guess it shows what we truly value (or more accurately devalue) as a so-called advanced society. Simply shameful is all I can say.
33
As near as I can tell, almost all for-profit schools and colleges are just con-operations. They really ought to be excludes from any govt tuition assistance programs.
Beyond that, there are simply too many lawyers anyway. These prospective lawyers would be better off studying something useful, like science or engineering (or even art history for that matter), and so would society. Unfortunately, those topics take real effort, which is why so many opt for law.
Beyond that, there are simply too many lawyers anyway. These prospective lawyers would be better off studying something useful, like science or engineering (or even art history for that matter), and so would society. Unfortunately, those topics take real effort, which is why so many opt for law.
19
The usurious interest rates are another part of the huge burden carried by law school students. Of course it may be necessary due to the failure rate of the loans, but the near 7% interest and an additional 4% fee is unreasonable in an era where most other sectors of lending are at 4% or less and savings accounts are paying next to nothing. What should be done? As many other commenters have said, these schools should only admit qualified candidates so that a higher percentage of them obtain jobs and can repay the loans. Not enough students? Disqualify a few of the offending degree mills from the federal loan program. As tax payers, let's stop supporting failing law schools and start supporting succeeding law students.
21
It is way past time for blowing the whistle on the notion that a law degree will eventually be good for something. When I applied to law school in 1961, I could think of no other way to make a living, except to be a lawyer. After a year, I figured there had to be a better way, but law practice was seen as a respectable profession.
Yet, nothing opened the flood gates like Ralph Nader's 'Unsafe at Any Speed'. The flood swelled without abating into the 1990s.
A JD is still a great degree that helps tie together various pieces of a complex economy that works within a rule of law. But a JD never was cheap and now is even less so.
Then, if legal practice is not one's thing, its sheer drudgery will encage those who wandered into the wrong church.
I have heard that 95% of Harvard Law School graduates do not practice. True? I would not know, but something like 20 men I knew got Harvard Law degrees. (I was from Boston, then.) Eighteen never entered practice or they left early. One entered banking after 20 years. And one is about to retire as a lawyer who specializes in large corporate transactions.
One who left early became a gifted mutual fund manager. Another, got into historic restoration, with a deep-pockets funding everything. The careers others found or designed were all interesting.
Those are the good outcomes. All too rare, I am afraid.
Yet, nothing opened the flood gates like Ralph Nader's 'Unsafe at Any Speed'. The flood swelled without abating into the 1990s.
A JD is still a great degree that helps tie together various pieces of a complex economy that works within a rule of law. But a JD never was cheap and now is even less so.
Then, if legal practice is not one's thing, its sheer drudgery will encage those who wandered into the wrong church.
I have heard that 95% of Harvard Law School graduates do not practice. True? I would not know, but something like 20 men I knew got Harvard Law degrees. (I was from Boston, then.) Eighteen never entered practice or they left early. One entered banking after 20 years. And one is about to retire as a lawyer who specializes in large corporate transactions.
One who left early became a gifted mutual fund manager. Another, got into historic restoration, with a deep-pockets funding everything. The careers others found or designed were all interesting.
Those are the good outcomes. All too rare, I am afraid.
17
The debt crisis exists for one reason only: too many graduates chasing too few jobs. Allowing students to write off the debt or providing more taxpayer subsidies will not change this fact. We should do nothing and let the situation sort itself out via the market. Let these bottom feeder schools die. Students will realize that the cost (ie, the tuition) is vastly greater than the value (ie, present of value of expected future earnings) and then avoid these schools like the plague. No serious person can argue that the USA needs more lawyers. This problem is a harbinger of the future of for-profit higher education (University of Phoenix, Everest College and the like) - worthless institutions driving up the cost of education while simultaneously driving down its value. The debt crisis is a strong market signal. Any applicant with an internet connection can spend five minutes researching these schools and see their true value.
2
The entire "non-profit" arena has become a scam. No profit in private schools that do not educate anyone and make vast sums for "investors". No profit in political organizations who raise vast sums of money for candidates and buy OUR government. No profit in mega churches who own vast real estate holdings to go with their taxpayer-funded "good deeds" - and they try to control OUR government and lives. No profit in organizations like cancer foundations and other groups started to help ill people and that now pay Hundred of Thousands of Dollars to their corporate masters who ride around in limos and throw lavish parties for their wealthy tax-money-hiding "benefactors". No profit in hospitals who keep raising their cost of care and expanding their facilities while enriching their "founders". It is time to knock the scammers OUT of the non-profit arena and rethink the entire concept.
17
Perhaps there are too many lawyers.
There are not too many public defenders. People with a Constitutional right to be represented get lawyers who have never met them before trial, and who have done no preparation at all, too often they have not even seen the file before trial. In Michigan, those assigned a public defender are given written notice that the lawyer will not be available and will not prepare.
There is not too much Legal Aid. They are desperately understaffed to help desperate people who are losing their homes, losing hope. They are caught up in worker comp injuries or other disabilities that disable them form seeking help. Abuse of the elderly is another example, and entire state "protected" by a just a couple of lawyers with almost no staff.
As the lawyer from Brownsville wrote, there are vast numbers of people who can't get help no matter they look for it, and know they need it. There are many more who don't even know how.
There are not "too many lawyers." There are too many trying to serve the rich, and avoiding those who need them.
The student debt problem comes from making students pay for education. Provide the education. Then guide them to the jobs that need doing. Fund those, instead of for-profit student debt.
There are not too many public defenders. People with a Constitutional right to be represented get lawyers who have never met them before trial, and who have done no preparation at all, too often they have not even seen the file before trial. In Michigan, those assigned a public defender are given written notice that the lawyer will not be available and will not prepare.
There is not too much Legal Aid. They are desperately understaffed to help desperate people who are losing their homes, losing hope. They are caught up in worker comp injuries or other disabilities that disable them form seeking help. Abuse of the elderly is another example, and entire state "protected" by a just a couple of lawyers with almost no staff.
As the lawyer from Brownsville wrote, there are vast numbers of people who can't get help no matter they look for it, and know they need it. There are many more who don't even know how.
There are not "too many lawyers." There are too many trying to serve the rich, and avoiding those who need them.
The student debt problem comes from making students pay for education. Provide the education. Then guide them to the jobs that need doing. Fund those, instead of for-profit student debt.
38
Education is very expensive and is arguably not needed for many jobs. Having people pay for their own education through their future income helps assure money on education is spent wisely. If helps assure people choose fields that society has communicated it needs through high salaries.
2
Maybe every new lawyer should serve a stint as a public defender, and just like student teaching, it should be a graduation requirement.
We face government shutdowns due to deficits, but of course we can fund expensive programs for just what we really need - more lawyers!
8
The government never shutdown due to deficit/default. The government shutdowns were/are an entirely artificial crisis caused by republicans in congress threatening default for political leverage. The government shutdown we face is entirely due to the so called "Freedom" caucus and not due to deficit.
1
Since it's been known for a long time that law school often does not necessarily lead to gainful employment as a lawyer, or passing the bar exam for that matter, a casual observer might wonder why so many young adults make the serious error of attending schools that can't deliver any meaningful employment opportunities, or that some students that attend law school don't have the ability to succeed.
Law school is not the most pleasant of experiences even for those who can make the grade. Besides outrageous tuition costs, there's a nasty adversarial component of law school education. Intimidating young adults is not exactly a model to be envied.
Law school is not the most pleasant of experiences even for those who can make the grade. Besides outrageous tuition costs, there's a nasty adversarial component of law school education. Intimidating young adults is not exactly a model to be envied.
29
"Since it's been known for a long time that law school often does not necessarily lead to gainful employment as a lawyer, or passing the bar exam for that matter, a casual observer might wonder why so many young adults make the serious error of attending schools that can't deliver any meaningful employment opportunities, or that some students that attend law school don't have the ability to succeed."
Perhaps the students taking the money are some combination of:
1. Gullible
2. Being willing to take what is likely to become a handout.
Perhaps the students taking the money are some combination of:
1. Gullible
2. Being willing to take what is likely to become a handout.
You get that in most graduate programs. Dog eat dog, and tenured professors who are not required to give a damn.
One conclusion that might be drawn from the Florida Coastal example is that you can always make money off of peoples' willingness to overestimate their own capabilities and uniqueness. I wonder how many of those students - or really any law students - can provide a concise and compelling reason why law is their particular calling.
Amongst my peers, it seemed like lawyering was just the next step after getting a liberal arts degree at Brown or Dartmouth or UConn. The motivation seemed principally to find a way to make money without having to pursue a difficult field like medicine or engineering.
Amongst my peers, it seemed like lawyering was just the next step after getting a liberal arts degree at Brown or Dartmouth or UConn. The motivation seemed principally to find a way to make money without having to pursue a difficult field like medicine or engineering.
22
And just think, there is no requirement in the Constitution for a Supreme Court judge to even have a law degree. Our founding fathers were truly wise.
So glad I did philosophy as an undergrad and then went into technology instead of law, which i of course had been considering - best decision i ever made for myself.
4
I am a long-time lawyer, went to law school when you had to make good grades and it meant something. Today's graduate couldn't make it through the first semester of my law school. And forget them being able to engage in meaningful work. And of course they would be loathe to try to learn how to represent those who need it the most. I don't feel sorry for them at all. I feel sorry for us, the taxpayers, who will pay for their wasted years in worthless schools.
20
What was the Obama administration really trying to do by only addressing foolish spending at such a small part of the problem? Most likely because the lawyers, including Obama, Clintons, and various republicans are trying to protect their club and not really trying to solve the issue of billions of public dollars being spent on degrees that will not support a livelihood. Hmmmm, somebody must be getting some sort of compensation for pushing this wasteful spending. Now who could that be????
2
You make one mistake.... Obama wasted his legal education by never practicing law, and teaching it for the briefest period of time.
The article correctly cites "free money" as the reason for this debt...BUT it incorrectly only shows half the remediation.
It talks about holding e schools accountable.
Since it cites that many students are low-performing student who won't pass the bar exam, how about the government stop the free money unless a student qualifies for it?
(Of course, in any case, the money isn't free - it came from us taxpayers)
It talks about holding e schools accountable.
Since it cites that many students are low-performing student who won't pass the bar exam, how about the government stop the free money unless a student qualifies for it?
(Of course, in any case, the money isn't free - it came from us taxpayers)
13
Law schools in this country are now a joke. The entire education system in this country is a joke. The entire legal system in this country is a joke. The courts are a joke. The banking system is a joke. This country is a joke.
Law school is nothing more that a swindle that will leave you with a huge debt burden and nothing to show for it. It has been for years, but now it has become so blatant that it's impossible not to notice it.
Law school is nothing more that a swindle that will leave you with a huge debt burden and nothing to show for it. It has been for years, but now it has become so blatant that it's impossible not to notice it.
8
This was a rather brilliant and scathing piece about the greed of law schools, so many of which, incidentally, tout their purportedly progressive policies and outlook.
3
As an attorney who graduated 20 years ago and has paid off all of his student loans, I agree with all the recommendations in this editorial.
12
If a student is smart enough to study law, he should be aware that when a person borrows money he is obligated to return it. Absolving debt accomplishes nothing except to further burden the law abiding middle class that cleans up everyone's mess.
23
Wow, you are correct on this issue. Why not expand it to colleges in general, where the flow of free student money has jacked up tuition for undergraduates in every major? Why limit it to just law school? That is why these calls for increased student loans and free college tuition are dangerous.
29
Meanwhile, outsourcing companies such as Axiom strip off full-time jobs from law firms and corporate general counsel offices to turn them into part-time "gig" jobs with no job security.
No wonder the outlook for lawyers is so bleak.
No wonder the outlook for lawyers is so bleak.
13
Law school does not train, nor is it intended to train one to be a lawyer. Also, Law school is not intended to be an exam prep for taking the Bar.
You can take and pass the Bar exams without ever stepping into a Law School, although there is probably no state that will admit one to their Bar without a law degree from an accredited institution as well as passing the Bar exams. Doesn't the fact that the Florida Coastals exist as accredited institutions necessary to getting admitted to the Bar essentially tarnish the whole idea of having to go to law school in order to getting admitted to the Bar? Finally, you can graduate from Harvard Law, make Law Review and pass the Bar exams with your eyes have closed with a massive hangover, and still make a crummy lawyer. Becoming a great defense attorney and especially a public defender has little to do with Law school.
You can take and pass the Bar exams without ever stepping into a Law School, although there is probably no state that will admit one to their Bar without a law degree from an accredited institution as well as passing the Bar exams. Doesn't the fact that the Florida Coastals exist as accredited institutions necessary to getting admitted to the Bar essentially tarnish the whole idea of having to go to law school in order to getting admitted to the Bar? Finally, you can graduate from Harvard Law, make Law Review and pass the Bar exams with your eyes have closed with a massive hangover, and still make a crummy lawyer. Becoming a great defense attorney and especially a public defender has little to do with Law school.
10
Pretty much dead on the money. Kind of like being a great doctor has very little to do with med school.
"You can take and pass the Bar exams without ever stepping into a Law School,"
Not true. Can you provide a link?
Not true. Can you provide a link?
Someone put it well to me: The LSAT has nothing to do with law school, law school has nothing to do with the bar, and none of them has anything to do with practicing law. It's a great system!
For profit schools, letting their clients out with an average of almost 163,000 dollars in debt and with little chance of passing the bar exam: only in America!
16
The implication here is there is something unique about this law school and their graduates.
I assure you that millions of American students go to entirely accredited state universities and even fancy private colleges, and STILL graduates many tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and with no job prospects (save that of The Gap and Starbucks).
A casual google search shows that Luxembourg has an unemployment rate of 7% (vs. 5% in the US). It is therefore reasonable to assume that a number of Luxembourgian college grads also cannot find gainful employment after graduation. Does Luxembourg pay 100% of the costs of college for every citizen who wishes to attend? including graduate schools? Does this largess extend indefinitely, for "career students"?
I assure you that millions of American students go to entirely accredited state universities and even fancy private colleges, and STILL graduates many tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and with no job prospects (save that of The Gap and Starbucks).
A casual google search shows that Luxembourg has an unemployment rate of 7% (vs. 5% in the US). It is therefore reasonable to assume that a number of Luxembourgian college grads also cannot find gainful employment after graduation. Does Luxembourg pay 100% of the costs of college for every citizen who wishes to attend? including graduate schools? Does this largess extend indefinitely, for "career students"?
I am sure there are any number of good ways to tweak the loan program to lessen abuse by those law schools and their investors who scam the system. I am just as sure that an army of lobbyists paid for by those who profit will water down to meaninglessness such reforms. And so it goes....
9
A law degree or bar passage does not entitle you to anything. I was able to build a practice with my law degree. It required numerous days and nights of unrelenting work, toughness and tenacity. I dealt with judges and adversaries who frequently disrespected me and had to prove myself for years. I graduated from a bottom teir lawschool and had to bust my bottom to find my first job. Now 13 years later I was able to pay off my debt. My advice for young lawyers is to get any kind of experience they can and then open their own practices. There are wonderful CLE and mentorship resources available. Stop the pity party you wanted to become lawyers now handle yourself like a lawyer.
56
That's great, but the point of the article is that these students can't even pass the bar (ie didn't have the aptitude and shouldn't have been admitted to law school or weren't adequately educated), and thus, can't even get to the point of needing to work hard in their careers.
Thirteen years ago was 2002 - another economic time completely. In my city, a 600 member (with staff) law firm imploded in 2009, along with small ones. I watched other types of businesses fail. Meanwhile, each year brings more graduates to compete.
You are lucky in your timing, as well as hard working. Not all who graduated later are simply dumber and lazier.
You are lucky in your timing, as well as hard working. Not all who graduated later are simply dumber and lazier.
5
A little hard to do that, don't you think, when the article is talking about law schools who deliberately choose students who most likely will never have either the ability or the education required to pass the bar. I'm pretty sure the law has problems with people who have not passed the bar "handling [themselves] like a lawyer."
1
My wife and I have five children. Two of them are lawyers. They KNEW that they would have to finish law school. They KNEW they would have to pass the bar exam. They KNEW that they would have to repay the student loans they accepted. There understood this as the start. Both did well in school: Number 4 at U. Colorado and with honors at U. Seattle. They passed their bar exams and took and passed the bar exams in other states as their career required moving They both lived frugal lifestyles as they repaid their student loans.
Perhaps we need to add an additional document to the student loans for ALL students for All loans stating
" I requested this student loan. I know that I must repay this student loans, even if I have no degree, have not passed the bar exam, do not have a job, have not started my own law firm. I may have to work several jobs in order to live and to repay the student loans. I may have to forget a social life until I have finally passed the bar exam."
Perhaps we need to add an additional document to the student loans for ALL students for All loans stating
" I requested this student loan. I know that I must repay this student loans, even if I have no degree, have not passed the bar exam, do not have a job, have not started my own law firm. I may have to work several jobs in order to live and to repay the student loans. I may have to forget a social life until I have finally passed the bar exam."
19
You are completely missing the point; students know they have to do these things. Many of them are failing the bar and unable to find work because they lack the ability or are simply graduates of schools with such poor reputations that they are essentially not hireable, not because they refuse to work hard.
Your suggested response would do absolutely nothing to solve the problem here. Stronger language in the loan agreement? What on earth would that solve? By focusing on the perceived moral failings of the students your are substituting an intractable problem (somehow changing human behavior) for an easily solveable one (federal policy changes regarding student loans).
Your suggested response would do absolutely nothing to solve the problem here. Stronger language in the loan agreement? What on earth would that solve? By focusing on the perceived moral failings of the students your are substituting an intractable problem (somehow changing human behavior) for an easily solveable one (federal policy changes regarding student loans).
2
You think these students aren't paying back the loans because they're spending their money on a social life? That's patronizing. They often do have to work (sometimes multiple) low wage jobs to earn their living when they can't pass an exam that they may not be qualified to take. I'm sure that language or its equivalent is already in the loan document (it was in mine and I had to sit through a presentation required by the school on the obligation to relay my debt), but the reality is if I wasn't able to earn the degree ir pass the exam needed to use it, I couldn't have repaid my debt. Fortunately, my schools did not admit anyone without he aptitude to complete their program - not so for these bottom feeding schools that real the benefit of taxpayer money peddling the American Dream to kids who are set up for failure.
1
I agree 100%. They need to feel the satisfaction of their accomplishments.
The article raises an interesting notion: Why not have the government stop giving loans and turn it over to the colleges and universities? If their money is at stake they will be a lot more careful with how they use it. There are parallels to the fact that home loan companies and banks offloaded their risky investments to others, and look what happened. We need to tie the loans more closely to the institutions. Of course, there will be a secondary market with the colleges too, unless prohibited. Let the government provide a grub stake to public colleges and from there on, it's their problem. The grub stake would be provided to private schools on a declining scale: the bigger their endowment, the less the grub stake. Harvard would get nothing.
13
Your editorial fails to place responsibility on the people most responsible for making bad educational and career planning decisions - the law students that incur such debts.
These adults are equipped with more research tools than any other generation in history with which to make sensible law school application decisions, or consider any other career opportunities. The fact that your Direct PLUS student loans system is patently defective, in the sense that taxpayers are ultimately responsible for loan defaults, is a separate issue from students making poor decisions that ultimately result in many being unable to pay their loan obligations.
Your analysis leads to the profoundly illogical conclusion that somehow the will of these gullible students to resist law school allure has been overcome by predatory, profit-seeking law schools. Are they children? Please.....
The 'crisis' you describe is entirely preventable. Remove the apparent incentive for law schools to recruit students operating under the assumption that Uncle Sam will bankroll their career aspirations, no matter what. Re-inject student accountability for career decision-making, whilst ensuring that deserving law school applicants in this exceedingly tight job market have access to student loans - they plainly represent a lower risk of default, and are likely far more motivated to succeed in a tough business.
These adults are equipped with more research tools than any other generation in history with which to make sensible law school application decisions, or consider any other career opportunities. The fact that your Direct PLUS student loans system is patently defective, in the sense that taxpayers are ultimately responsible for loan defaults, is a separate issue from students making poor decisions that ultimately result in many being unable to pay their loan obligations.
Your analysis leads to the profoundly illogical conclusion that somehow the will of these gullible students to resist law school allure has been overcome by predatory, profit-seeking law schools. Are they children? Please.....
The 'crisis' you describe is entirely preventable. Remove the apparent incentive for law schools to recruit students operating under the assumption that Uncle Sam will bankroll their career aspirations, no matter what. Re-inject student accountability for career decision-making, whilst ensuring that deserving law school applicants in this exceedingly tight job market have access to student loans - they plainly represent a lower risk of default, and are likely far more motivated to succeed in a tough business.
64
Student accountability? Yes, please! In all facets of higher ed.
The next time the editorial board of the NYT starts to write in support for some new government program or entitlement maybe the should refer back to this piece. This is not the only place in higher education where government subsidies and loans have distorted markets and increased prices without actually keeping significant numbers of students. It just creates more places both for profit and not for profit living off the teat of government largesse.
4
We already have too many lawyers, so the government should not subsidize the creation of more of them. Simply end government loans for law school and let students get private loans or work after college to save money for law school.
It strikes me that all universities should be liable for the loans their students fail to pay back. I suspect there would be fewer students allowed to major in fields in which there are few paying jobs.
2
The times is complaining about lack of job prospects for law school graduates paying high tuition? How about going after every parent's nightmare: a gender studies major at $60k a year. Fair's fair. Stop picking on "for profit" schools. The nonprofits are are no better. As someone once said, "There's no profit like nonprofit."
4
One of my nephews majored in "Filmmaking" at a very highly rated private university -- he and his parents had to borrow something like $180K to pay for his 5 years there (he could not manage to graduate in four years).
Today, he is working as a waiter in Los Angeles, hoping for his "break". His parents pay his college loan payments for him.
If you look at many college's offerings, fully 70% are probably dead ends that will only very rarely produce a job, let alone a career.
Today, he is working as a waiter in Los Angeles, hoping for his "break". His parents pay his college loan payments for him.
If you look at many college's offerings, fully 70% are probably dead ends that will only very rarely produce a job, let alone a career.
1
I fault the parents. My children get their education paid for with a caveat- Major in anything you want (English, philosophy, whatever), but be prepared to become an academic (not me paying for the grad degree), go to professional school, or learn accounting or computer science so you can actually get a job when you finish. I look at it as an investment on my part. I strongly support allowing my daughter to become a writer, but she had better learn something to support herself with until her big break comes. It's call being practical.
No federal tax dollars should be spent on law school ed. We are over producing law grads, many of whom are unqualified, and can't get jobs. This is crazy. Stop the program. Make the current and recent with loan debt pay up on an easier schedule. Don't write it off. And, yes, only target loans and loan guarantees (by the feds) at those in dire need.
1
wait? Who is going to run for Congress if we run out of lawyers?
Law students are adults, free to make their own life choices, including to take on debt.
2
And if the schools contrive false employment stats to induce prospective students to enroll, then they're making the choice without correct info and they will default when they can't earn enough to repay the debt, and you and all the rest of us taxpayers will fund this cost, despite your indignation.
Why should the taxpayers subsidize those bad decisions?
Law school, med school - and how about schools of veterinary medicine...
Where the grad can emerge with $240,000 in debt... 8 semesters times $30,000 per... and then be forced into small animal practice to baby sit the pet owner...
While large animal veterinary work goes begging...
We always ask the wrong question, of course...
Might the better question start with cost of these schools?
What are we paying those that teach, those called to the professions ...
Truth be known, the skyrocketing costs are a function of government largesse larded in on the professions - with boat loads of bloat added annually, as the teachers teach less and less, and teaching assistants toil to make good on their debts... grading papers, giving exams, and generally running the place as the teachers meant to teach write, speak, consult - and work away from the classroom more and more - to service their own interests, not those of their student.
Another indication of government affect... well known on the campus, apparently unknown to the reporters that feature the need to bale out the students emerging loaded with debt, unable to manage their qualifying exams given by government - till the stand in takes the exam, and gets paid for it.
Truth is there, right there on campus.
Where the grad can emerge with $240,000 in debt... 8 semesters times $30,000 per... and then be forced into small animal practice to baby sit the pet owner...
While large animal veterinary work goes begging...
We always ask the wrong question, of course...
Might the better question start with cost of these schools?
What are we paying those that teach, those called to the professions ...
Truth be known, the skyrocketing costs are a function of government largesse larded in on the professions - with boat loads of bloat added annually, as the teachers teach less and less, and teaching assistants toil to make good on their debts... grading papers, giving exams, and generally running the place as the teachers meant to teach write, speak, consult - and work away from the classroom more and more - to service their own interests, not those of their student.
Another indication of government affect... well known on the campus, apparently unknown to the reporters that feature the need to bale out the students emerging loaded with debt, unable to manage their qualifying exams given by government - till the stand in takes the exam, and gets paid for it.
Truth is there, right there on campus.
Veterinary medicine is another questionable field. It used to be harder to get into vet school than MEDICAL schools (for humans). Today, it is far easier to get in. They opened up new schools and expanded their programs. It is a particularly popular field for young women, who often love animals.
I know several young people today who are applying to or already in a vet program.
Problem? I have several pets, and my vets have told me "there is simply no more room in this community for more small animal vets!" There is literally a vet on every major intersection, with new ones opening all the time. They are competing with each other, and since new vets have heavy debts, they have jacked up prices to the moon -- I used to pay maybe $35 to get annual checkups for my cats. Now it is over $100 per cat. And the vets relentlessly push fancy foods and treatments, to gin up business.
The larger point is that this same phenomena is happening in fields other than the law.
I know several young people today who are applying to or already in a vet program.
Problem? I have several pets, and my vets have told me "there is simply no more room in this community for more small animal vets!" There is literally a vet on every major intersection, with new ones opening all the time. They are competing with each other, and since new vets have heavy debts, they have jacked up prices to the moon -- I used to pay maybe $35 to get annual checkups for my cats. Now it is over $100 per cat. And the vets relentlessly push fancy foods and treatments, to gin up business.
The larger point is that this same phenomena is happening in fields other than the law.
I'm going to lose everything I have when my debt from attending the South Texas College of Law is forgiven when the 25 year debt repayment deadline arrives, and is counted as income by the IRS.
Like everyone else, I envisioned a different outcome.
Like everyone else, I envisioned a different outcome.
2
So did the taxpayer, when they advanced you the money. They expected it back with interest. Instead, you will pay a small percentage of a sum that has decreased in value through inflation.
Boo hoo. We have too many lawyers as is in the US, and an excessively litigious society as a result. Personally, I think there should be an annual culling of 10% of all layers at the end of each year, just like for deer and other overpopulated wildlife.
3
I was shocked and angered when I learned the law school tuition currently charged by my alma mater, University of Virginia.
Law school tuition has become a total racket. A pox on them all - every last one.
Law school tuition has become a total racket. A pox on them all - every last one.
12
But nobody regulates what you charge, and nobody regulates the contingency fees, all of which drive up the costs of liability insurance dramatically. At least the tuition is a one-time expense. What lawyers continually do in practice is a different story all together.
There is another aspect to this situation that, as a practicing attorney, presents a picture of many, most law schools cutting down on “costs” that cheat students and impair a good legal education: namely, they have materially reduced library costs by stopping purchases of legal journals, treatises, and case books that form the backbone of legal scholarship. They have done this because students these days have portable computers and do their research on the “net”.
Unfortunately, research on a computer via the net does not substitute for the books, and several polls of students have proved the most students, themseles, prefer getting it in books rather than their computer. Of course, many legal volumes are not available by computer.
At a library for a prominent law school in Chicago almost one-third of the library space that used to have books has now been replaced with bare tables for the students to come to the library,use their portable computers, and browsse at empty tables—an exercise that does not require going to the library at all.
Of course, legal cases, treatises etc. have risen in price and are costly; but these costs are the essence of what a law school should provide. Its libraries that distinguish the good from phony schools.
Its browsing in the books, and there are many of them, coupled with the natural curiousity of a good student, that make for a good and informed fuuture lawyer.
Unfortunately, research on a computer via the net does not substitute for the books, and several polls of students have proved the most students, themseles, prefer getting it in books rather than their computer. Of course, many legal volumes are not available by computer.
At a library for a prominent law school in Chicago almost one-third of the library space that used to have books has now been replaced with bare tables for the students to come to the library,use their portable computers, and browsse at empty tables—an exercise that does not require going to the library at all.
Of course, legal cases, treatises etc. have risen in price and are costly; but these costs are the essence of what a law school should provide. Its libraries that distinguish the good from phony schools.
Its browsing in the books, and there are many of them, coupled with the natural curiousity of a good student, that make for a good and informed fuuture lawyer.
7
Welcome to the libraries of the future. It has nothing to do with law schools specifically. It is happening in ordinary public libraries.
My community library system just shut down a gorgeous traditional library of mostly books (though it did have a decent computer lab) -- to build a brand new deluxe $12 million facility (for a city of 28,000 residents) that is 80% computers and things like a kid's video studio. There are hardly any books in this dream of the future. The implication is "everybody has a computer and can use the internet".
My community library system just shut down a gorgeous traditional library of mostly books (though it did have a decent computer lab) -- to build a brand new deluxe $12 million facility (for a city of 28,000 residents) that is 80% computers and things like a kid's video studio. There are hardly any books in this dream of the future. The implication is "everybody has a computer and can use the internet".
So are law schools predatory like private trade schools and colleges have been? There are other non-private schools that are predatory too, they take unprepared kids eligible for federal aid (or wealthy internationals) and milk their aid (or parents) for 6-8 yrs. At least after that point they do get a BA.
1
We have far too many mediocre law schools and colleges for that matter. If 20 percent closed it would not be a bad thing. Students need to do their own due diligence, not relying on any data provided by these schools. Buyer beware!
7
I love American capitalism. I start a business based on government-backed loans. I run no risks, make a huge profit, and let the taxpayer cover any loan defaults. I back candidates who vote for the loans and who oppose government regulations on my business plans and practices. And I extol the marketplace of free enterprise (ha-ha: "free" to me--no risks).
11
The students who borrow massive amounts of tuition money to attend these law schools, and then refuse to pay the money back, are just as guilty as the law schools - if not more so.
Do these "students" do any homework? How many minutes of Internet research does it take to find the pass/fail rates of students in these law schools? How much research does it take to discover the average income of lawyers, the job prospects for lawyers, the odds of passing the bar, etc?
America has too many lawyers already. We certainly don't need any who start their careers by failing to pay their debts.
Do these "students" do any homework? How many minutes of Internet research does it take to find the pass/fail rates of students in these law schools? How much research does it take to discover the average income of lawyers, the job prospects for lawyers, the odds of passing the bar, etc?
America has too many lawyers already. We certainly don't need any who start their careers by failing to pay their debts.
11
I don't recall any discussion of students refusing to pay the money back. They are defaulting because student debt cannot be discharged and because they can't make ends meet. Also, the issue here is that many of these schools had obscured the data that you are referring to. Upon pressure to finally disclose much of it, enrollment rates decreased. I obviously agree that students need to be more responsible, but you're painting a different picture than what happens in reality.
1
Actually, it would take a lot of research.
Most people choose a school based on "where their friends are going (or went)" or where their parents went -- or how close it is to home or to friends or if it is a glam city they would like to settle in.
They are also distracted by lovely color brochures and the promises and dreams they hold out.
Most people choose a school based on "where their friends are going (or went)" or where their parents went -- or how close it is to home or to friends or if it is a glam city they would like to settle in.
They are also distracted by lovely color brochures and the promises and dreams they hold out.
Public service loan forgiveness is federal law. So long as Congress and the President do not mess it up, the program will be a boon to public interest attorneys and poor Americans. I attended quality public law schools and passed the bar on the first try. I left law school with 160k in student loans. I work two jobs, and my wife stays at home to raise our four children. It's been amazingly difficult, but the rewards are high and the jobs are satisfying. In four and a half years my federal loans will be forgiven. Perhaps I wouldn't have gone to law school if I had known what the debt burden would do to me. However I have an exciting career and have been able to help many people as a public interest lawyer. Looking back, I have been truly blessed and give thanks for the opportunities.
8
It's not just law schools and it's not just "for profit" schools. Inflation in tuition has been rampant for all universities for decades. Those bastions of liberalism have exploited students in the past and continue to do so. After all, it is the universities and their "financial aid" departments that hook the students up for loans. Making a college education "free" will only exacerbate the problem. I say that given the track record of well intentioned government programs for the last 50 years. Every time they are "fine tuned" to make them better, they take a bad situation and make it worse.
2
I went to law school in the 1970s, now retired; so I don't have a dog in this fight. For the top 5% of law school graduates the monetary returns are very good, but for the bottom half it's really bleak, and not much better for most of the top half either. Many could earn more with a community college technical 2 year degree, without debt. Would American taxpayers tolerate medical schools where half the graduating MDs couldn't find work? That's the sad reality among law schools, and not hidden as well as it used to be. Verdict oversupply; sentence, close 100 of the 200 down.
6
Bernie Sanders. He gets it.
Make college free and shut down this student loan scam. The only ones winning in the current system are banks, investors and administrators on bloated salaries that produce nothing. Pay professors well, fund new and robust research labs, and let's move this country forward.
Make college free and shut down this student loan scam. The only ones winning in the current system are banks, investors and administrators on bloated salaries that produce nothing. Pay professors well, fund new and robust research labs, and let's move this country forward.
14
How is Bernie going to pay for it? Take all of my money and give it to poor students who want to go to college and wind up dropping out, or, wind up working jobs that never required college in the first place? How about spending that money on improving our infrastructure, and forcing the welfare recipients as well as those not suited for college to take those jobs and "move America forward?"
Medical school is not far behind. A gross excess of doctors leads to a gross excess of treatment. It is estimated that over half of the surgeries done in the US are unnecessary. Diagnostic testing is off the wall. Thousands even go to the Carribean or overseas to become doctors so they can come back to the US and overcharge. Does anyone thing medical outcomes are any better? Like medicine the US is overwhelmed by litigation. It is said Apple and Google spend more on lawyers than they do on research. Does anyone think our legal system is leading to better lives for Americans in comparison to a loser pays environment like Britain? Maybe we need to think about creating real jobs for educated Americans. Maybe a little protectionism might be a good thing. Otherwise what else can our kids do but law and medicine?
1
There is a direct correlation between the increased salary of certain university presidents measured at the same time as increased debt of the student body. A few of the universities with the worst ratios include NYU, University of Delaware and University of Washington. I suppose this is how we reward 'success'.
2
I'm glad this editorial refers to both for profit and nonprofit schools, but the truth is that both are equally profit seeking. The only difference is that the for profits owe taxes when they make profits and the nonprofits do not.
6
Thanks for this editorial.
There is a clear need for regulation of institutions, including Law Schools, that draw on public funds and serve public needs. It is sickening how supposedly ethical people have created debt traps for naive Law students.
There is a clear need for regulation of institutions, including Law Schools, that draw on public funds and serve public needs. It is sickening how supposedly ethical people have created debt traps for naive Law students.
3
All government programs with best intentions including social security, Medicare are ending up like in this sorrow state. There will be the United States no more if this trend continues.
1
The same scam applies to 4-year undergraduate schools as well. Prices have shot through the roof, grade inflation has made passing as difficult as showing up, and people are still getting oh so useful degrees in gender studies.
The schools don't care since they get paid whether or not someone can get a career from their time there, and they are quick to stress they are not in the vocational training industry. But they certainly make sure their administrators (rather than faculty) are paid very well indeed.
The schools don't care since they get paid whether or not someone can get a career from their time there, and they are quick to stress they are not in the vocational training industry. But they certainly make sure their administrators (rather than faculty) are paid very well indeed.
6
I have a somewhat different outlook on this. Everyone who applies for law school is a college educated person. They are able to make educated decisions about what debts to take on and what the risks are of going to law school. A Google search can rapidly show that there are high risks and high costs (and have been for numerous years now) to going to law school. I am a lawyer. I came out of law school in 2008 to a market with no jobs. I created a job by hanging my own shingle, and I do not earn a large amount of money. I still owe a large amount of money. I do not blame my law school. I do not blame the federal government. I take responsibility for my decisions, as I should.
That being said, I do agree that allowing for-profit (or not-for-profit, for that matter) schools basically run up their tuition because of federal loans is ridiculous. I do think that the ABA needs to tighten up its standards for being admitted into an ABA approved law school, so that the people who do get into law school have a better chance of passing the bar; and it should tighten up its standards for being ABA approved, period. I also think that loan forgiveness should be tied closer to public work (whether it is as a lawyer or in another position), and it should begin immediately, not be deferred to the future.
I think there are a lot of solutions to this problem, but I refuse to lay all the blame on the schools and government.
That being said, I do agree that allowing for-profit (or not-for-profit, for that matter) schools basically run up their tuition because of federal loans is ridiculous. I do think that the ABA needs to tighten up its standards for being admitted into an ABA approved law school, so that the people who do get into law school have a better chance of passing the bar; and it should tighten up its standards for being ABA approved, period. I also think that loan forgiveness should be tied closer to public work (whether it is as a lawyer or in another position), and it should begin immediately, not be deferred to the future.
I think there are a lot of solutions to this problem, but I refuse to lay all the blame on the schools and government.
6
Going to a law school is no guarantee that you can become a lawyer. Generally, only students of sufficient character qualifications who are able to pass a bar examination are able to become a lawyer after graduating from an accredited law school.
There are reasonable predictors of the likelihood of passing the bar exam, the LSAT being one of them. If an applicant does not meet the requirements of these predictors, they should not be admitted to a law school, because they will be wasting their time and their money and passing up other more realistic opportunities. Any school that admits them and ensnares them into borrowing heavily to attend should be held accountable.
There are reasonable predictors of the likelihood of passing the bar exam, the LSAT being one of them. If an applicant does not meet the requirements of these predictors, they should not be admitted to a law school, because they will be wasting their time and their money and passing up other more realistic opportunities. Any school that admits them and ensnares them into borrowing heavily to attend should be held accountable.
2
Most people who get law degrees do so with the expectation of being paid well. Reducing debt won't change that, and won't correct a legal system that is based upon how wealthy a client is.
We need to change the way law is practiced, to make it fair for everyone.
We need to change the way law is practiced, to make it fair for everyone.
3
I could not agree more. There is a recent report by the NY Federal Reserve Bank that notes as the loan limit rises so does tuition (imagine that!). I think the schools need some skin in the game. Since student loan debt to the government is non dischargable in bankruptcy no more than half should be guaranteed by the government, with the other half put up by the schools and fully dischargable.
7
Why? Are you going to stop using the education you got after you declare bankruptcy? How is not like wanting to discharge the debt on a car but keep the car?
While I understand that the NYT has a readership that may be concerned particularly with lawyers, I feel compelled to point out that this same problem has plagued higher education for DECADES (witness the legions of adjuncts and other contingent professors).
The proliferation of for-profit, and, sorry to say, online "graduate schools" has exacerbated what was already an employment crisis before such became numerically significant.
Somehow, when it happens to JDs, it becomes news.
The proliferation of for-profit, and, sorry to say, online "graduate schools" has exacerbated what was already an employment crisis before such became numerically significant.
Somehow, when it happens to JDs, it becomes news.
9
The NYT focuses on and speak to the issues of their readers -- very upper class, educated professionals in the Northeast.
Many of them are or were attorneys, and many of their children are in law school, or are attorneys or want to become one.
Trying to get your kids into the upper middle class is a struggle today, and makes parents very anxious.
Many of them are or were attorneys, and many of their children are in law school, or are attorneys or want to become one.
Trying to get your kids into the upper middle class is a struggle today, and makes parents very anxious.
2
Graduation from a good law school can prepare one to do any job that requires critical thinking, diligent preparation, public speaking, and/or wise judgment. It does NOT, however, guarantee a good job. Most job seekers have to compete for employment in any field, not just law. It's 'survival of the fittest'. Taking on student debt is a gamble just like taking on a mortgage or a car loan or at the national level, war debt. Foresight with a repayment plan or 'exit strategy' is a pretty sensible idea.
8
The pox of student loans. We already have too many college graduates as it is. But the lure of student loans pulls them like the siren song to college for it is far easier to go to college than go to work. Young people rarely believe that the bill will eventually come due.
But the colleges love it. Money students and more money. Bigger is better.
But the colleges love it. Money students and more money. Bigger is better.
The U.S. has the strangest desire to squeeze a profit from the darnedest things, from the water we drink to, before you know it, the air we breathe. And now that I think of it, there are places where you can pay to breathe the air.
But like hospitals and health care centers, colleges and universities should not be for profit, and they certainly should not receive any funding or support from the federal government. That's not to say the U.S. shouldn't have private colleges -- but they shouldn't be designed to benefit shareholders at the expense of students trying to improve their lives and, in the process, improve the future of the country.
But like hospitals and health care centers, colleges and universities should not be for profit, and they certainly should not receive any funding or support from the federal government. That's not to say the U.S. shouldn't have private colleges -- but they shouldn't be designed to benefit shareholders at the expense of students trying to improve their lives and, in the process, improve the future of the country.
7
Another way to help students would be to mandate law school's cannot require college as a prerequisite.
This unnecessary requirement adds cost and restricts lawyers practices to high end. It appears, comparing to most of Europe, college requirement makes civil law representation much less affordable to most Americans.
This unnecessary requirement adds cost and restricts lawyers practices to high end. It appears, comparing to most of Europe, college requirement makes civil law representation much less affordable to most Americans.
2
I tried law school in the late '60s and hated it. I dropped out much to the chagrin of my in-laws. I had enough credits and became a certified public accountant. I work hard and my income is higher than most attorneys. I sometimes deal with mediation and arbitration matters and trust me the attorneys that I deal with mostly hate the practice of the law. I enjoy what I am doing. Perhaps law school is not the route to success. It has certainly lost the prestige it had many years ago.
6
Bottom-tier law schools, like the one discussed in this article, are an absolute sham and should be closed. To allow students with low LSAT scores to enroll when there is virtually no chance that they will ever pass a bar exam, or gain meaningful employment as attorneys is institutionalized fraud. The collaborators are the fly-by-night law schools (both for-profit and non-profit), the US Congress (which allows them to participate in federal student loan programs - due to the generous contributions of industry lobbyists), and the ABA's accreditation committee (with its highly-paid "consultants") that permit these institutions to operate in the first place. The victims are the students from these schools, who thought they had found a ticket to a better life, and the taxpayers who are stuck with the tab for the defaulted loans, which will never be repaid. It's great to know that we live in a country where our elected officials protect the interests of sham industries such as these diploma mills, at the expense of the people.
105
If a law school accepts payment arising out of the federal loan program, the law should require the school's budget and balance sheet to become public information, available to anyone who pays for a school through the program. The Congress also should require the budget information to be posted on a federal website. When centers of higher education accept accept public money, whether they are gouging the public simply by spending more is a hot button issue. The price of higher and professional education has soared way beyond increases in the consumer price index over the last 25 years. Let's find out if these "non-profits" are really so non-profit or are just money-making operations for their professional employees, service and product providers.
1
I graduated from Florida Coastal School of Law, passed the bar on the first try, and am a very good attorney and take personal offense by the NY Times insinuating that Coastal graduates creates subpar attorneys. Also, I paid off my loans. Here's the issue with Florida Coastal that the article does not properly address: the school admits a great deal of students with the intention of getting rid of them before graduation. Specifically, the school may admit hundreds of students and then subject them to a "C" curve. So 45% of the class must get a C, 15% of the class get As, 15% Fs, 15% Ds. Any professors who do not follow this rubric for any reason will have their exams regraded by the Dean (this happened in my class). Students below the curve (which will be approximately 40% according to the curve) will be placed on academic probation and ejected. Thus, the school intends on taking 30k-90k from perhaps 15%-25% of students who will be ejected as a result of this harsh curve. Also a result of this vicious curve, there is a problem with cheating, ripping pages out of law books to prevent other students from having access to testing material and faking illnesses at test time to gain more study time and stagger the exams farther apart (this happened in my class). This grading curve also prevents students from transferring to more affordable schools, because of how the grades destroy your GPA (compare this to schools such as University of Florida who does not share this curve).
7
My school did the same thing as far as the curve.
They didn't really curve at all as other law schools do with the intent of flunking people out of school or making their grades so low they have a hard time transferring.
What is hilarious- or not- is the fact that most of my professors also teach at the higher ranked state law school 10 minutes down the road.
Also, in my 3L year, we had about 25 students transfers out of my 4T school into Emory with B grade averages because Emory's attendance was down. The result? When the bar exam results came back, Emory's bar exam passage rate tanked.
I passed the bar exam a year ago graduating from a 4T school and was just hired a PDs office.
Frankly, I went to a "bad" school and thought the bar was easy. It amazes me people fail it. And I say with pain because I know smart people who have done so from 1T - 4T schools.
They didn't really curve at all as other law schools do with the intent of flunking people out of school or making their grades so low they have a hard time transferring.
What is hilarious- or not- is the fact that most of my professors also teach at the higher ranked state law school 10 minutes down the road.
Also, in my 3L year, we had about 25 students transfers out of my 4T school into Emory with B grade averages because Emory's attendance was down. The result? When the bar exam results came back, Emory's bar exam passage rate tanked.
I passed the bar exam a year ago graduating from a 4T school and was just hired a PDs office.
Frankly, I went to a "bad" school and thought the bar was easy. It amazes me people fail it. And I say with pain because I know smart people who have done so from 1T - 4T schools.
1
This article is accurate and I generally agree with the sentiment. It's a hard sell though, to some degree, to tell people who aren't good at a test that they should follow their dreams to try and become a lawyer. But in reality, they shouldn't. The LSAT, unlike standardized tests in several professions, is proven to be an excellent indicator of law school and law profession performance (which is why top law schools rely on it so heavily).
While I think MBA programs are generally better bang-for-buck, and crucially they're only two years, I regularly tell my friends not to attend an MBA program unless they can get into M7 (Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, Columbia, MIT Sloan, Kellogg, U Chicago). I personally wouldn't have gone if I hadn't gotten into Stanford or Harvard. Similarly I don't recommend anyone goes to law school unless they can get AT A MINIMUM into a "V14" school. If you're not fabulous in school but want to work hard and make a good living, I recommend a Masters in Accounting. Often 1 year programs that'll get you into big 4 accounting firms, which provide a stable and profitable career.
While I think MBA programs are generally better bang-for-buck, and crucially they're only two years, I regularly tell my friends not to attend an MBA program unless they can get into M7 (Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, Columbia, MIT Sloan, Kellogg, U Chicago). I personally wouldn't have gone if I hadn't gotten into Stanford or Harvard. Similarly I don't recommend anyone goes to law school unless they can get AT A MINIMUM into a "V14" school. If you're not fabulous in school but want to work hard and make a good living, I recommend a Masters in Accounting. Often 1 year programs that'll get you into big 4 accounting firms, which provide a stable and profitable career.
62
Laregely on target but studies show an MBA pays off for at least another six to ten schools if you attend full time.
With higher education, and now health care, the government does way too much subsidizing without exercising its power to bargain on the price. The net result is predictable - huge profits for colleges and health providers, huge expense for taxpayers.
2
I believe that their educations should best be put to use servicing the indigent and lower-to-middle middle classes, thus allowing them to make decent wages whilst being of service to others' who would never be able to afford the minimum $125-200/hour that a licensed attorney would make.
Sometimes, oftentimes, the only difference between a licensed attorney and one with a J.D., is 75 points on a bar exam; and sometimes the student who doesn't pass the bar has more knowledge and is a better researcher/writer than someone who has passed the bar.
Sometimes, oftentimes, the only difference between a licensed attorney and one with a J.D., is 75 points on a bar exam; and sometimes the student who doesn't pass the bar has more knowledge and is a better researcher/writer than someone who has passed the bar.
2
As a lawyer myself, I hate to say this, but the law regulatory bureaucracy picks up the hustle immediately after lawyers begin practice.
Most lawyers are subject to a boondoggle known as mandatory continuing legal education, or MCLE. It was first inflicted more than forty years ago, and nobody has ever produced a whit of empirical evidence that it does any good.
It does not measurably improve lawyer performance or protect the public. It does, however, earn millions of dollars annually for bar associations. MCLE is the only consumer fraud in America which victims are required by state supreme court order to submit.
A money-hungry climate like this in professional regulation does not encourage prudent limitation of law school empire building.
Most lawyers are subject to a boondoggle known as mandatory continuing legal education, or MCLE. It was first inflicted more than forty years ago, and nobody has ever produced a whit of empirical evidence that it does any good.
It does not measurably improve lawyer performance or protect the public. It does, however, earn millions of dollars annually for bar associations. MCLE is the only consumer fraud in America which victims are required by state supreme court order to submit.
A money-hungry climate like this in professional regulation does not encourage prudent limitation of law school empire building.
3
Doctors are subject to this scam too. Several thousands of $ per year worth. Credentialing now requires it.
Our nation has way too many lawyers as it is. There should be no taxpayer supported incentives to attend law school. If you want to go to law school, find the money to do so in the private sector. Federal incentives to encourage lawyers to serve the public by way of legal aid or public defender can be provided through tax benefits or loan relief to the individual as she provides those services.
4
I've been out law school and in practice for over twenty years. The legal business, and it really is a business, has been undergoing structural changes for decades. The value proposition for law school has been diminishing for most in that time.
While the Editorial Board castigates the federal government for causing this "crisis", it conveniently ignores the role of the American Bar Association in accrediting virtually any law school whose checks clear. Most of these marginal law schools are in the ABA's good graces when they really do nothing than add more ill-prepared lawyers to an already bloated market.
While the Editorial Board castigates the federal government for causing this "crisis", it conveniently ignores the role of the American Bar Association in accrediting virtually any law school whose checks clear. Most of these marginal law schools are in the ABA's good graces when they really do nothing than add more ill-prepared lawyers to an already bloated market.
93
Of all the people here claiming to be lawyers, I think you're the real deal.
This article takes a simple problem and misdiagnoses it. The legal profession is a guild. The way to ensure employment for lawyers is to restrict entry to the guild. Supply of lawyers goes down, demands stays the same, and, magic, lawyers are employed (and at better salaries). That is what the ABA (American Bar Association) should do: there should be fewer accredited law schools in the U.S. and fewer people passing the bar exam. Then, like the old days, all law graduates would get jobs with good salary. Will those lawyers provide adequate services for the poor? Yes, maybe, if the government pumps a lot more money into public legal service.
3
And this logic applies exactly to loan subsidies for all of higher ed, not just law schools. Throwing taxpayer dollars at students merely encourages colleges to raise tuition and to continue doing a lousy job at educating them (see Arum and Roksa's "Academically Adrift" for the abysmal details).
And Clinton and Sanders want to subsidize bloated, ineffective colleges even further !
When are we going to create a comprehensive online university as a public good and stop shoveling money at bricks-and-mortar colleges ?
And Clinton and Sanders want to subsidize bloated, ineffective colleges even further !
When are we going to create a comprehensive online university as a public good and stop shoveling money at bricks-and-mortar colleges ?
3
There is one, fully accredited and not for profit. It was founded to give people who did not go straight from school to university a chance. It might be difficult for Americans whose high school education may not meet their expectations though.
http://www.open.ac.uk/
http://www.open.ac.uk/
So maybe Gingrich was right about one thing: College and professional school cost has gone through the roof since the federal government decided that everyone should get the most education money would buy -- and subsidized whatever price our higher education system would demand. Now we have professors teaching 5-10 hours per week and earning six figure salaries. And we haven't gotten any smarter as a nation. Our friends in Canada and Europe manage to fund university education at half the cost.
2
Welcome to the world of Student Loan Debt, a problem not addressed by politicians for a number of reasons - the biggest being they can't, or won't, do anything about it.
My loans went default in 2013 after being unemployed for 3 years. I owe $300,000 now, after a juicy $80,000 was given to a collection agency who simply returned it to the federal government for collection; the total amount I owe is about 60% interest over the loans proper. Even if you pay on them for years, as I did, you're sunk.
It's arguably the most oppressive private/citizen debt in American history, and it has all consumer protections removed from it: no refinancing, no bankruptcy, the govt. can (and does) take all your IRS refund, your disability, your SSN benefits, any retirement funds, part of your unemployment compensation, cost you your government job, and so on...
I live in Jacksonville, FL and Florida Coastal is a joke. You can thank governor Rick Scott, in part, because of his pro-business, deregulating, elitist approach. While Florida suffers, this bozo travels to NYC to see business investors despite the majority of Floridians who think he should focus on building business within the state.
All I can say is that student loans ruined my life. I'm 53, spent 4 years in the Marines, have an MS in biology and I graduated with a 3.82 GPA, worked while in school, and I've worked since I was 15 (except for the last 3 years). There is no reason to get student loans with all we now know.
My loans went default in 2013 after being unemployed for 3 years. I owe $300,000 now, after a juicy $80,000 was given to a collection agency who simply returned it to the federal government for collection; the total amount I owe is about 60% interest over the loans proper. Even if you pay on them for years, as I did, you're sunk.
It's arguably the most oppressive private/citizen debt in American history, and it has all consumer protections removed from it: no refinancing, no bankruptcy, the govt. can (and does) take all your IRS refund, your disability, your SSN benefits, any retirement funds, part of your unemployment compensation, cost you your government job, and so on...
I live in Jacksonville, FL and Florida Coastal is a joke. You can thank governor Rick Scott, in part, because of his pro-business, deregulating, elitist approach. While Florida suffers, this bozo travels to NYC to see business investors despite the majority of Floridians who think he should focus on building business within the state.
All I can say is that student loans ruined my life. I'm 53, spent 4 years in the Marines, have an MS in biology and I graduated with a 3.82 GPA, worked while in school, and I've worked since I was 15 (except for the last 3 years). There is no reason to get student loans with all we now know.
18
If you are unemployed, your law school education is not serving you well. Whose problem is that? Giving you unemployment insurance is a great thing, we have to do that so citizens have time to get back on their feet. But double shifts 5 days a week at Starbucks will bring in money. Maybe not enough, but you will be working 16 hours a day which is what I do, and that will help.
Given that the U.S. has become the most litigious country on the planet, I have difficulties generating much sympathy for graduating law students who can't pass the bar, or find a job once they have passed it.
I also have no sympathy for for-profit schools, but given the law of supply and demand, perhaps this is a step in the right direction.
I also have no sympathy for for-profit schools, but given the law of supply and demand, perhaps this is a step in the right direction.
6
And there is also an article in the Times about investing in lawsuits. If this is allowed to continue, it will only add fuel to the ability of attorneys to fund even more litigation.
Well I'm sure you'll get no sympathy in return when you're sold a lemon car, wrongfully accused of a crime, hit by a car and denied fair compensation, unfairly fired from your job, defamed by a former boss, or any other legitimate life issue that only a good lawyer can truly help you with.
The fundamental reality is "the market" doesnt work for education. This is what has happened in the Australian private college sector. Naïve students are paying $50k to fly-by-night "colleges" with fancy sounding names, only to find that the course content is lacking, the facilities are poor and the employment outcomes are overestimated. The formal, regulated sector - ie universities - are screaming that they should be able to set their own prices, but the general public rose up and protested against $100K degrees.
Less funding doesnt fix the problem. MORE regulation does. Of course a for profit company is going to see a cash bonanza if there's federal funds given without any regulations attached.
Less funding doesnt fix the problem. MORE regulation does. Of course a for profit company is going to see a cash bonanza if there's federal funds given without any regulations attached.
4
Arguably, there is a shortage of lawyers in this country, not a glut. Millions of poor are in need of legal services to counter unjust criminal prosecution, job discrimination, and eviction and to secure for them countless other rights. A program to reward those who serve the poor by forgiving debt would make the most of the present situation. In the long run, reducing the number of unemployable graduates is the best idea. In the short run, an expanded legal services program makes the best of a bad situation.
5
Just to clarify: There's not a shortage of lawyers in this country. But there is a critical shortage of lawyers doing the necessary work you describe.
The path to failure is paved with good intentions. The Congress has proposed to improve access to legal advice by increasing the number of lawyers by paying for more to be educated. Seems reasonable.
It's not working.
So where is the Congressional oversight that is supposed to fine tune the process to make it work??
Why these Congressional Lawyer Legislatures are out beating the bushes for campaign contributions so they can stay in office and pass more laws.
They evidently don't do governance or oversight anymore in Washington, only soundbites.
It's not working.
So where is the Congressional oversight that is supposed to fine tune the process to make it work??
Why these Congressional Lawyer Legislatures are out beating the bushes for campaign contributions so they can stay in office and pass more laws.
They evidently don't do governance or oversight anymore in Washington, only soundbites.
Amazing! You have given hope today, the NYT gets the idea that government guarantees of loans leads to a lowering of requirements to get the loan, price inflation in the sector the loans are given for and a bubble of loan defaults. They even swallow hard and admit that this applies to the 'not for profit' sector as well as the fun to bash for profit law schools. Now, NYT editors and profligate Keynesians of the world Unite! and take the scary but logically unavoidable step to understanding that this is a universal phenomenon. It is not limited to law schools but applies equally to undergraduate degrees (see college debt crisis), home mortgages (see credit crisis of 2008), and even with a small non exertional bit of extrapolation to health care costs. So come out of the bunker with a white flag, help us to get the government out of the business of distorting markets and repent. We the people will accept your penance and extend our hand in forgiveness and in friendship.
7
Try to convince the rest of the country that there is a dearth of lawyers and that we need to do something to help - the high price of law schools is a scam - unlike the sciences, there is no need for multi million dollar labs, foreign scientists and other costly attributes that in some ways explains a high tuition for those courses. Whether it's Columbia Law or Stat U. Law the tuition charged is totally disproportionate to the cost of providing the program...
12
End the government's loan program as it applies to for-profit colleges, including law schools. Degrees from these borderline scam institutions carry very little weight in the real world. Ok, there are probably some individual success stories out there, but the data for both completion of the programs by students and the subsequent careers afforded to students is damning. The programs, like other services whose business model depends on government funding, are run for the benefit of the owner operators, not the students.
8
The debt loads are actually worse than this; almost all law school grads have loans for their bachelors degrees to pay off as well. Law is an undergraduate subject in Europe. If European students can commence their legal studies as freshman, so can ours, and thereby reduce their debts by half.
http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/law
http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/law
25
This is good, but it must be remembered that in most European countries, the secondary education designed for those who intend to proceed on to university covers much more than it does in the United States. Students entering any European university, let alone an institution like Cambridge, are well advanced beyond the level of the American freshman student.
European medical schools also start after high school. No undergraduate degree needed.
As a sole practitioner in the poorest city in America I have had to experience almost daily the pain of rejecting people with real legal service needs because they can't afford it. We have Medicaid, Medicare, private insurance or the emergency room for medical needs, but virtually nothing for people in dire need of legal services. Seeing this has galvanized my socialistic roots while living a very middle class lifestyle. Bully for the Times for pointing out the misallocation of resources.
64
If you are turning people away because they cannot afford your fee, how, Mr. Benton, are you then expecting people to pay for legal insurance?
And when you consider that many of the people in the criminal side of the justice system are their because of impoverished backgrounds...even though they wear the highest priced sneakers available and always seem to have the latest iPhones,..the likelihood of their buying such insurance is in the "in-your-dreams" range.
And when you consider that many of the people in the criminal side of the justice system are their because of impoverished backgrounds...even though they wear the highest priced sneakers available and always seem to have the latest iPhones,..the likelihood of their buying such insurance is in the "in-your-dreams" range.
Google reveals the existence of Texas Rio Grande Legal Aid, Inc, with multiple offices in Brownsville. Why do you not mention their presence, counselor? You make it sound like they leave your office and go unrepresented.
We have to understand that unless Republicans get kicked out of majority control of Congress, the abuse of private for profit higher education will never end. These for profit scams to students and the Federal government are all Republican ideas. Privatization is welfare for the .1% at the expense of taxpayers and the Federal government.
32
I'm sorry but if a law student isn't bright enough to avoid a for profit, subpar law school, I don't want them as my attorney.
As opposed to a democratic controlled congress that will steal more of my earned dollars and just hand them to the underachieving students to waste my money instead of risking theirs? Sounds great.
One of the seminal moments in the development of American business morality occurred in 1987 when the release of the movie Wall Street Street exposed millions of budding young capitalists to the attitudes and theories of Gordon Gekko, captured in the immortal words "Greed is good".
That message sunk in, and it has been reinforced over and over again in countless business success stories where greed has paid off, big time.
Naked greed is never pretty; sophisticated greed, subtle greed, is much better form, but if it comes down to choosing between naked greed and no greed, the rule is to go naked.
The price of anything in the private sector has become, simply, what the market will bear. Pharmaceuticals, medical services, cell phones, financial products, education, everything. There is no such thing as price gouging any more. Prices are limited by competition, and of course by what people are willing to pay, but if people will pay $500 for something that cost $10 to make, you sell it for $500. There is no mark up too big.
That message sunk in, and it has been reinforced over and over again in countless business success stories where greed has paid off, big time.
Naked greed is never pretty; sophisticated greed, subtle greed, is much better form, but if it comes down to choosing between naked greed and no greed, the rule is to go naked.
The price of anything in the private sector has become, simply, what the market will bear. Pharmaceuticals, medical services, cell phones, financial products, education, everything. There is no such thing as price gouging any more. Prices are limited by competition, and of course by what people are willing to pay, but if people will pay $500 for something that cost $10 to make, you sell it for $500. There is no mark up too big.
9
One need only look to the fashion and electronics industries to see the efficacy of your statement, GBC.
And the reason why the greedy are able get away with it is that there is a fool, at least one, born every minute.
And the reason why the greedy are able get away with it is that there is a fool, at least one, born every minute.
Smart phones. Sneakers. Collectibles of all types. Sports cars. Now, law school.
The list is endless. If a sucker will pay $500 for a $10 item, capitalism says "make a profit off that fool".
The list is endless. If a sucker will pay $500 for a $10 item, capitalism says "make a profit off that fool".
Florida Coastal's Florida Bar passage rate for the July 2015 exam was 59.3%, not as bad as this editorial would lead one to believe. St. Thomas, Barry and Ave Maria, all Florida law schools, had lower rates. None of the rates are impressive, compared with Florida International's top rate of 89%. Florida Coastal's passage rate for February 2015 was 74.5%, third highest in Florida. See sun ethics.com. Yes, there are too many law schools graduating too many students. One solution may be for more law schools to require 6 - 12 months of paralegal or similar law experience before admitting students to law schools. Many of those students will learn during that year that law is not for them. This admissions prerequisite has worked for decades for the Culinary Institute of America.
39
Perhaps requiring that all law schools students become paralegals before entering would solve both problems.
Where are these paralegal jobs, are they paid, if they are paid why are they not filled with people more competent than newbie wannabe law students, and if they are not paid, how do said wannabes support themselves for that year?
Playing the law school lottery game rests in part on a combination of the greedy gullible gambler in all of us along with the empathetic humble altruist. In an internet age the educational socioeconomics of the legal profession are or should be well known by all.
Caveat emptor or buyer beware should be enough to address this crisis by rational accountable adults. Along with exploring alternatives to practicing law, there is arguably a desirable beneficial societal need for competent affordable quality legal representation for real persons including the poor, the minority, the young, the old and the mentally ill or causes such as the environment, energy, education and housing.
Blaming law schools and the financial debt incentives as the root causes of the problem is way off the mark. The marriage between commerce and law for corporation, plutocrats, politicians and oligarchs is a socioeconomic educational politically morally cramped legal vista.
Northwestern University School of Law just received a gift of $ 100 million dollars from a former alumni and is now known as the Pritzker School of Law. When, where and how those funds will be used in a law school with tuition nearing $60,000 a year will be an interesting challenge.
Caveat emptor or buyer beware should be enough to address this crisis by rational accountable adults. Along with exploring alternatives to practicing law, there is arguably a desirable beneficial societal need for competent affordable quality legal representation for real persons including the poor, the minority, the young, the old and the mentally ill or causes such as the environment, energy, education and housing.
Blaming law schools and the financial debt incentives as the root causes of the problem is way off the mark. The marriage between commerce and law for corporation, plutocrats, politicians and oligarchs is a socioeconomic educational politically morally cramped legal vista.
Northwestern University School of Law just received a gift of $ 100 million dollars from a former alumni and is now known as the Pritzker School of Law. When, where and how those funds will be used in a law school with tuition nearing $60,000 a year will be an interesting challenge.
24
An independant party should be utilized at all colleges to varify graduate success and placement rates in related fields. Names could be protected unless the student/graduate agreed to let it be published. Then those students considering attending a school could see if the institution did a good job of placing students into their desired fields and what entry level salaries really were. Many of these schools teachers are out of touch with the current job market and what happens to their former students. To many schools are selling fantasy and not reality.
1
As a retired attorney, I applaud the Times on its many articles effectively discouraging the marginalized from pouring their money down the sink holes that pretend to offer a meaningful law school experience.
There are 92,000 licensed attorneys in Illinois where I practiced. Roughly 45,000 of them tell the Department that records such data that they practice in Cook County, meaning Chicago and it's immediate suburbs.
Thousands more are added to the rolls each year and attrition is fairly negligible as compared to 'newly licensed attorneys'.
What are the odds that these newbies will land meaningful employment that pays enough to satisfy the debt they bring to the equation?
Close to zero.
There are 92,000 licensed attorneys in Illinois where I practiced. Roughly 45,000 of them tell the Department that records such data that they practice in Cook County, meaning Chicago and it's immediate suburbs.
Thousands more are added to the rolls each year and attrition is fairly negligible as compared to 'newly licensed attorneys'.
What are the odds that these newbies will land meaningful employment that pays enough to satisfy the debt they bring to the equation?
Close to zero.
3
Wow! The NYT Editorial Board has discovered economics. Free money, given without accountability, creates artificial demand allowing suppliers to charge artificially high prices. If the Board's analysis is correct, wouldn't it apply with equal force to almost all of our government student loan programs? Would a reasonable banker lend more than $150K to an indigent art history student at Yale, if the bank had to warrant the student would earn enough in the art curation world to repay the debt? Of course not!
I hope the Board will keep this editorial in mind when the next Administration is attempting to buy the youth vote with easier student loans, more generous repayment forgiveness or whatever the next free money gambit might be. In the end, the money will simply end up in the hands of overpaid academics and university administrators. Is it any wonder, universities are building waterparks and coffee houses? They have money to burn.
I hope the Board will keep this editorial in mind when the next Administration is attempting to buy the youth vote with easier student loans, more generous repayment forgiveness or whatever the next free money gambit might be. In the end, the money will simply end up in the hands of overpaid academics and university administrators. Is it any wonder, universities are building waterparks and coffee houses? They have money to burn.
1
The editorial board just now realized that government involvement in a marketplace distorts that market? Apparently, the board only considers that very basic economic principle to apply when discussing law schools, but not housing, insurance, undergraduate education, etc. To add to the "Through the Looking Glass" overlay of this editorial, the board's proposed solution is to . . . demand more government involvement. Surely someone with a degree in something other than a liberal arts field can step into the board's conference room and explain basic economics.
3
The ABA is not acting as a responsible accreditation overseer. It has accredited more schools even as the applicant pool shrinks. It seems to barely scrutinize law school admissions operations, which in some cases use strategies that can best be described as high-pressure sales tactics, or bait-and-switch.
Faculty salaries are often the largest single category of expense of such institutions, each base salary averaging well above six figures. Highly paid law faculty who claim governance of their institutions should be held accountable -- and hold themselves accountable -- for what their admissions offices are doing in their name. And they should invest more of that student loan money into actually helping students succeed.
Faculty salaries are often the largest single category of expense of such institutions, each base salary averaging well above six figures. Highly paid law faculty who claim governance of their institutions should be held accountable -- and hold themselves accountable -- for what their admissions offices are doing in their name. And they should invest more of that student loan money into actually helping students succeed.
7
"In many cases, the lawyers are so overworked that they cannot provide constitutionally adequate representation for criminal defendants. Civil legal services that help people with housing, immigration and workplace issues are even more scarce, with hardly any public support.
If fewer federal dollars were streaming into law schools’ coffers and more were directed to fund legal services organizations, the legal profession — and the American legal system as a whole — would be better for it."
This is exactly right. I work in the civil legal aid world, and I have significant law school debt. But I'm also grateful to have a job that's meaningful to me, at least for now. It's depressing to think how many bright, well-intentioned young lawyers and law students I know with uncertain job prospects and a certain mountain of debt. And on the other hand, every week I go to court and watch as people in the most dire need of justice - people with no assets, on the brink of homelessness and/or complete health failure - are processed through the system because no one is there to represent them. If the powers that be cared about either side of this equation, they would be talking about debt relief and public funding and investing in legal incubators.
As in so many other industries, working in the legal world is an exhausting grind, and the rewards tend to trickle up to a well-connected and amoral few. Law school as it exists now may be the biggest scam in an industry full of them.
If fewer federal dollars were streaming into law schools’ coffers and more were directed to fund legal services organizations, the legal profession — and the American legal system as a whole — would be better for it."
This is exactly right. I work in the civil legal aid world, and I have significant law school debt. But I'm also grateful to have a job that's meaningful to me, at least for now. It's depressing to think how many bright, well-intentioned young lawyers and law students I know with uncertain job prospects and a certain mountain of debt. And on the other hand, every week I go to court and watch as people in the most dire need of justice - people with no assets, on the brink of homelessness and/or complete health failure - are processed through the system because no one is there to represent them. If the powers that be cared about either side of this equation, they would be talking about debt relief and public funding and investing in legal incubators.
As in so many other industries, working in the legal world is an exhausting grind, and the rewards tend to trickle up to a well-connected and amoral few. Law school as it exists now may be the biggest scam in an industry full of them.
3
My son graduated from a low-tier law school in 2012 and has an enormous amount of debt. He worked full-time and went to school at night. Unlike the people mentioned here, however, he passed the bar exam on his first try. He has not been able to find a job in law despite being a member of a state bar. He has a reasonable job, but he still cannot get hired to be an attorney. For some unknown reason, I keep getting paid tweets from a law school in Massachusetts (state school), encouraging students to apply to their school. It offers all sorts of incentives. I reply with tweets that caution people not to go to law school because there are no jobs. Your editorial is excellent in terms of encouraging the federal government to support funding legal services organizations to assist people who cannot afford legal representation. Right now, public defenders are lucky to make $40,000 per year. You cannot reduce your six-figure indebtedness on salaries such as this--and support a family, to boot. If I had known about this, I would have seriously suggested that he get a different graduate degree to complement his political science undergraduate degree. As it is now, he's fortunate to have a job with a reasonable income so that he can chip away at his debt.
9
I did the same thing. After a year of being barred with no work, finally, I got a low paying job at a privatized version of a public defenders office making 45K with no benefits.
Hope your son hangs in there.
Hope your son hangs in there.
Yes, this editorial is exactly right. Even "non-profit" schools are often for profit. "Non-profit" just means they have no shareholders receiving dividends. It does not mean insiders can't be paid lavishly, taking their profits out in the form of salaries and benefits. The federal government should continue, and toughen, the gainful employment rules, extending them to all colleges and requiring that schools that don't achieve sufficient gainful employment for their students also bear the federal losses on their student loans beyond the national average loss rate.
2
Money is thrown AT as well as BY the federal government, at least at those who are in a position to block these sensible changes. Just Friday, I heard the former President of Adelphi University, Robert Scott, deliver a distinguished lecture at Oxford University, detailing the ways in which political contributions, significantly from for-profit colleges and the like, sustain this kind of situation across the whole of higher education. An example? With difficulty a rule was put in place that at least 10% (only!) of tuition revenue must come from non-federal sources. The congressional response? Yes, but veterans' benefits are not to be treated as a federal source.
We are an increasingly corrupt society, and not only or even most importantly among those who misuse federal funds.
We are an increasingly corrupt society, and not only or even most importantly among those who misuse federal funds.
1
The law student debt crisis and the exploding tuition will change only once the perception of law graduate income changes - this will take a substantial period of time. Universities are firmly entrenched in the tradition of only reporting salaries for those that respond to surveys sent by the schools. Are those who failed the bar and currently unemployed really going to be that eager to respond?
Also, law programs need to modernize to become more efficient and can probably be better delivered via the internet than many other degrees; however, the American Bar Association abhors this idea and has continued to accredit schools like Florida Coastal while limiting schools abilities to offer and education via non-traditional curricula.
Also, law programs need to modernize to become more efficient and can probably be better delivered via the internet than many other degrees; however, the American Bar Association abhors this idea and has continued to accredit schools like Florida Coastal while limiting schools abilities to offer and education via non-traditional curricula.
2
The outrageously high tuition is not unique to law schools. The poor employment prospects are not unique to the legal profession. Bernie Sanders so frequently makes the point -- we the greatest, most prosperous nation in the history of the world yet we cannot make education as accessible today as it was fifty years ago and we have elected to finance higher education through student loans that will impoverish a generation of students. We can do better.
2
After 20 years of practice in a low paying field of law I am still repaying my student loans. One reason-clients who don't pay for services provided,even those who can afford it. Another reason-state bar requirements for pro-bono services which in recent years have finally changed. Over 20 years of solo practice I have provided at least $250,000 in free legal services to residents of my state with no tax breaks or student loan discounts. Yet Boeing & other corporations are offered multi-million dollar tax breaks to come to this state. This is wrong.
2
The remedy is to get government completely out of the educational loan business. It cannot even run the post office efficiently or get the trains to run on time, so how in the world is it supposed to run a program like this. Add to this the rapaciousness of folks, mostly "progressives" in the education field who demand (and get) higher and higher wages and virtually no management or supervision once they reach tenure. Raise the debt limit and they raise tuition. The loan program is nothing but a wage increase for the unionized teachers who repay the government's largess with their votes. Does this all sound corrupt? If so, it's because it is. Oh, and the students? They are, to use the vocabulary of classic progressives, "useful idiots."
2
Yet in America you enjoy social security, Medicare, safe roads, clean water and air, medicines that work as advertised, working hospitals, unadulterated food from restaurants, functional power grids, and on and on and on. These came directly from that supposedly non-functional government whose evil laws you hate. Maybe you'd prefer the dark ages and death around every corner?
1
It is great to see an article such as this with an honest assessment of all colleges. There is a reason that the non-profit pushed not to fall under the gainful employment rules and I thank you for pointing it out.
There are good and bad colleges in all college sectors and we need to hold them all accountable.
The other fact that needs to be understood is the actual cost of education, not the net cost or tuition that students pay. By way of example, each year state and local taxpayers provide public universities $80 billion to fund their annual operating losses. For-profits get no such subsidies. So when we point out the low cost of public education this annual cost of $80 billion needs to be factored in.
I am all for public education. I just want us to properly evaluate which colleges are providing value and know those who are not, so we may work to improve them, or if appropriate, shut them down.
Your point that there are six for profit law schools and as many as 50 non-profit ones - may be one of the first times I have seen balanced reporting on the for-profit sector. It is good balanced reporting.
There are good and bad colleges in all college sectors and we need to hold them all accountable.
The other fact that needs to be understood is the actual cost of education, not the net cost or tuition that students pay. By way of example, each year state and local taxpayers provide public universities $80 billion to fund their annual operating losses. For-profits get no such subsidies. So when we point out the low cost of public education this annual cost of $80 billion needs to be factored in.
I am all for public education. I just want us to properly evaluate which colleges are providing value and know those who are not, so we may work to improve them, or if appropriate, shut them down.
Your point that there are six for profit law schools and as many as 50 non-profit ones - may be one of the first times I have seen balanced reporting on the for-profit sector. It is good balanced reporting.
4
In the last decade this problem has been exacerbated by a rush to create additional law schools. Currently, US law schools produce 44,000 graduates per year while US medical schools produce 18,000 graduates annually. (Does our country really need 2 1/2 lawyers for every doctor?)
The cause of this disparity is simple. The infrastructure required to create a law school is simple and comparatively cheap - a facility, a complement of faculty, an administration and a library. On the other hand, a medical school infrastructure requires a substantially larger faculty, and in contrast to law schools, that faculty needs to have a substantial research base, In addition, a credible medical school needs a large clinical facility and a robust post-graduate training program.
Law school tuitions are comparable to medical school tuitions but the resources needed to garner law school tuition dollars are comparatively minuscule. Therefore, why not create or expand a law school?
The cause of this disparity is simple. The infrastructure required to create a law school is simple and comparatively cheap - a facility, a complement of faculty, an administration and a library. On the other hand, a medical school infrastructure requires a substantially larger faculty, and in contrast to law schools, that faculty needs to have a substantial research base, In addition, a credible medical school needs a large clinical facility and a robust post-graduate training program.
Law school tuitions are comparable to medical school tuitions but the resources needed to garner law school tuition dollars are comparatively minuscule. Therefore, why not create or expand a law school?
11
The growing delta between numbers of law school graduates and law jobs has been widely reported. So have the measures law schools have taken to keep the pipeline full. As the writer notes, the chief draw for getting fresh students and more money is the percentage of graduates who get jobs as attorneys -- a scoring category used by US News and other raters of law schools. As available jobs declined, law schools started to game the system -- first by expanding the definition of jobs to anything that required some knowledge of law, such as paralegal or researcher. Then they hired their own unemployed graduates into previously nonexistent research fellowships. All of this so they could lie to the raters and to college students about their chances of success if they bet on law school. These practices are not confined to lower-tier schools, BTW, but also occur at top schools, even some among the top 20 in the country. Schools then lowered entrance requirements -- resulting in the downward trend in bar exam results. The latest tactic has been to publicly assail the need for bar exams, so that another inconvenient truth can be hidden from the suckers. The simple fact is that there are too many law schools, too many graduates, and too few jobs. People need to be educated about the real costs of, and real chances of success following, law school. Then hopefully competition for legitimate candidates will achieve a better match between the demand for lawyers and the supply.
5
The article fails to mention that the joy of finding meaningful employment may very well be short-lived as newly-minted law graduates discover the realities of practicing law in today's legal marketplace. I left the legal business after twelve years in government and private practice. I was fortunate to be able to transition to academia, teaching and researching in a business school at a major research institution. It is a civilized existence - a loophole in life to quote a colleague of mine who teaches at UConn. I have no regrets about my years as a practicing attorney - my practice provided me with real world experience that I share with my students. But twenty years later, I do not wax nostalgic about my practice. My counsel to students contemplating law school - be realistic and think long and hard about what you hope to accomplish with your degree.
1
I agree with one part of the article - law school tuition is too high and student debt is staggering for many graduates. Certainly higher education generally and law schools specifically must develop a different business model. But I believe it is important to separate law school debt from the important role that lawyers play in our society. A NYT front page article discusses racial disparity in traffic stops and the role lawyers play in addressing the issue. The Bridge of Spies tells the story of one lawyer's role in a vigorously defending an accused spy, using America's "rulebook" - the Constitution. Many law school graduates go back to their communities and play important roles there. Others choose to use the skills they learned in law school in other ways, business, politics and NGOs.
As we properly question the cost of legal education, let's not denigrate the profession or those who have chosen to pursue it.
As we properly question the cost of legal education, let's not denigrate the profession or those who have chosen to pursue it.
9
We should bring back the apprenticeship model of legal education.
Have students learn practical skills, while earning decent money, doing work that needs to be done to benefit their communities.
Otherwise, we end up with a system in which the only people who can afford to become lawyers are 1) the wealthy, who may not be in touch with the concerns of the poor or middle class, and 2) the heavily indebted, who will need to work for the wealthy in order to pay off their loans.
How can we expect to tackle the injustices of political and economic inequality when all the lawyers only work for the rich?
If lawyers want to be able to create justice in society at large, they should first strive to create it in their own profession.
Have students learn practical skills, while earning decent money, doing work that needs to be done to benefit their communities.
Otherwise, we end up with a system in which the only people who can afford to become lawyers are 1) the wealthy, who may not be in touch with the concerns of the poor or middle class, and 2) the heavily indebted, who will need to work for the wealthy in order to pay off their loans.
How can we expect to tackle the injustices of political and economic inequality when all the lawyers only work for the rich?
If lawyers want to be able to create justice in society at large, they should first strive to create it in their own profession.
1
True. true. true.
And, apply I similar standards on non-profit and for-profit colleges and universities. This flood of money has enable all of these schools to increase tuition and costs with scant eye to the bottom line or to the resulting debt of the student.
Moreover, 50 years ago we were teaching Greek and Latin to middle- and high- school students; today, we teach remedial English in colleges and universities.
What an accumulated pile of poor policies and management with scant eye towards what was supposed to be accomplished.
And, apply I similar standards on non-profit and for-profit colleges and universities. This flood of money has enable all of these schools to increase tuition and costs with scant eye to the bottom line or to the resulting debt of the student.
Moreover, 50 years ago we were teaching Greek and Latin to middle- and high- school students; today, we teach remedial English in colleges and universities.
What an accumulated pile of poor policies and management with scant eye towards what was supposed to be accomplished.
4
When I went to law school in 2003, I was above the national LSAT Average, and was admitted to a Tier 4, regional law school. I was told 90% of graduates had jobs within 9 months. I was told my average starting salary would be $63.000 per year. I thought, having done my calculations right, that this would allow me to pay off my loans in 20 years.
At the end of my 1L year, the writing program which was in the top 20 in the nation, was gutted. The International Law program they advertised was limited to 2 classes. And the IP Law Review, and most of the Professors were cut. When I graduated, I passed the hardest bar exam in the country, then another, and got caught in a recession where no one was hiring. 10 years later, I have not worked in the law. Couldn't get hired now, I've been out so long. I have $250,000+ in loans, and no way to pay them back. If I did get hired, my starting salary would be $35,000. My field is being automated (Less work to do), there are too many graduates (less positions), fewer clients can afford lawyers (poor economy), and the lawyers graduating are sub-par (ruining the profession). Law school, since about 2000 is a scam, and since there is no bankruptcy relief, every law school student in my position is screwed for life. There should only be about 1/4 the schools as there are now. And entry based on firms pre-hiring, and sponsoring students.
At the end of my 1L year, the writing program which was in the top 20 in the nation, was gutted. The International Law program they advertised was limited to 2 classes. And the IP Law Review, and most of the Professors were cut. When I graduated, I passed the hardest bar exam in the country, then another, and got caught in a recession where no one was hiring. 10 years later, I have not worked in the law. Couldn't get hired now, I've been out so long. I have $250,000+ in loans, and no way to pay them back. If I did get hired, my starting salary would be $35,000. My field is being automated (Less work to do), there are too many graduates (less positions), fewer clients can afford lawyers (poor economy), and the lawyers graduating are sub-par (ruining the profession). Law school, since about 2000 is a scam, and since there is no bankruptcy relief, every law school student in my position is screwed for life. There should only be about 1/4 the schools as there are now. And entry based on firms pre-hiring, and sponsoring students.
9
Student debt in every field is humongous. For a change the Presidential candidates are talking about it. Thanks to Senator Elizabeth Warren and Senator Bernie Sanders. Mrs. Clinton has a lot of catching up to do, but she is joining the chorus. It is possible that we would have a chance to fix this mess.
There are a lot of us who believe that Education (all Levels) and Health Care is a basic human right for every man, women, and child. And it is not limited to the US either. For current matter we would discuss the problem in the US. A fix would require the Congress to go along with the solution of the problem. The current composition would never let it pass as the Republicans just don’t care about the suffering of the people who are shouldering this enormous debt. They are more concerned about and are sympathetic to the big money people who are making huge money on the backs of people who could ill afford to pay them back.
One small variation in the payback mechanism that would reduce the bad debts, no payments, and would bring most of the loans in current status is the redesign of the minimum payment system. The minimum payment must be affordable for the family to payback after deducting all living expense and assigning a percentage of the disposable income towards student debt.
Secondly all student debt must be free of any fees and interest charges. The fees and interest charges on all currently held student loans should be reset at 0.
There are a lot of us who believe that Education (all Levels) and Health Care is a basic human right for every man, women, and child. And it is not limited to the US either. For current matter we would discuss the problem in the US. A fix would require the Congress to go along with the solution of the problem. The current composition would never let it pass as the Republicans just don’t care about the suffering of the people who are shouldering this enormous debt. They are more concerned about and are sympathetic to the big money people who are making huge money on the backs of people who could ill afford to pay them back.
One small variation in the payback mechanism that would reduce the bad debts, no payments, and would bring most of the loans in current status is the redesign of the minimum payment system. The minimum payment must be affordable for the family to payback after deducting all living expense and assigning a percentage of the disposable income towards student debt.
Secondly all student debt must be free of any fees and interest charges. The fees and interest charges on all currently held student loans should be reset at 0.
5
I am a 2012 law school graduate, gainfully employed in a public service legal job I love (I help low-income families avoid eviction.) I also have $273,000 in student loan debt, up from the roughly $225,000 I borrowed for tuition and cost of living expenses (this was the amount identified by my school as the full "cost of attendance.")
I am three years into the Federal public service loan forgiveness (PSLF) program. At the end of ten years' work in qualifying public service, everything I still owe will be forgiven with no tax penalties. This program is a godsend for public service minded attorneys, but it is only the beginning of what is needed.
While I await forgiveness, I cannot take time away from work to raise a family, and I am in no financial position to buy a home. However, capping the amount that can be borrowed will only keep low-income students out of law school altogether. The Federal government should assist borrowers and incentivize public service work at the same time by forgiving a percentage of debt for each year the attorney works in a qualifying nonprofit position. For graduates that still find their debt overwhelming, they should have the same options that any person who overspends on credit cards or gambling debts does-- the right to discharge the debt in bankruptcy, take the penalty to their credit, and rebuild.
I am three years into the Federal public service loan forgiveness (PSLF) program. At the end of ten years' work in qualifying public service, everything I still owe will be forgiven with no tax penalties. This program is a godsend for public service minded attorneys, but it is only the beginning of what is needed.
While I await forgiveness, I cannot take time away from work to raise a family, and I am in no financial position to buy a home. However, capping the amount that can be borrowed will only keep low-income students out of law school altogether. The Federal government should assist borrowers and incentivize public service work at the same time by forgiving a percentage of debt for each year the attorney works in a qualifying nonprofit position. For graduates that still find their debt overwhelming, they should have the same options that any person who overspends on credit cards or gambling debts does-- the right to discharge the debt in bankruptcy, take the penalty to their credit, and rebuild.
126
From: https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/sites/default/files/public-service-loan-for...
Are vacation or leave periods considered when determining whether I am a full-time employee?
Employer-provided vacation or leave time is equivalent to hours worked in determining whether you meet the full-time employment requirement. This includes leave taken for a qualifying condition under the Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993.
Are vacation or leave periods considered when determining whether I am a full-time employee?
Employer-provided vacation or leave time is equivalent to hours worked in determining whether you meet the full-time employment requirement. This includes leave taken for a qualifying condition under the Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993.
That is a prime example of how the subsidies work to keep tuition high and soak taxpayers. Why do we owe you a nearly free education?
I feel the pain. I graduated from a non-public law school in 1990 with more than $80,000 in debt. I was not a stellar student, and I did not pass the bar. About a year after I graduated, the law school sold itself to another private university. As time went by, my ability to pay the loans fluctuated with my employment fortunes. I took out deferrals, defaulted, had wages garnished, and had tax refunds attached over the years. Now 25 years later I still owe more than $60,000 on those damned loans. Sure, much of the blame rests on me. But the law school never once suggested to me that maybe I should cut my losses and quit. However, they were quite happy to help with the loan applications.
124
"Much of the blame"? It's not the law school's responsibility to 'tell you to quit.' It doesn't know what you plan to do with that degree, it's merely selling a product to you (the degree) that you've willingly bought.
I feel bad for you that 75% of your loan balance is still on the books 25 years later. I hope you find a path to paying off your debt that maintains your self-esteem.
I feel bad for you that 75% of your loan balance is still on the books 25 years later. I hope you find a path to paying off your debt that maintains your self-esteem.
1
After five years of dissatisfying work as an engineer, I went to Rutgers Newark Law School, graduating in 1976. I wanted to go to law school because I wanted to do something in the government regulatory arena that would allow me to combine my legal and engineering background.
Tuition at Rutgers was ridiculously low, $460 a semester in 1970s dollars. The faculty and my fellow class mates were quite stimulating (one class mate was Elizabeth Warren).
Upon graduating, I passed the bar, and worked for years for the State of New Jersey in public utility regulation during an era when utility companies were applying for billions in rate increases. My work was critical in whittling those requests down, thereby saving the public tens of thousands of times what it may have invested in my legal education.
I am now retired. Over my career, I had a comfortable, but not lucrative, income. And I have the personal satisfaction of a job that I think was well done.
The answer is simple. More public law schools that are non profit, with high, but not ridiculously high, admission standards. Admit students who, because of their background, seem to have something that they will be able to contribute to society beyond just being another lawyer. And third, a loan forgiveness program for those who do use their legal training for the public good in public employment in fields where there is a shortage of qualified practitioners.
Tuition at Rutgers was ridiculously low, $460 a semester in 1970s dollars. The faculty and my fellow class mates were quite stimulating (one class mate was Elizabeth Warren).
Upon graduating, I passed the bar, and worked for years for the State of New Jersey in public utility regulation during an era when utility companies were applying for billions in rate increases. My work was critical in whittling those requests down, thereby saving the public tens of thousands of times what it may have invested in my legal education.
I am now retired. Over my career, I had a comfortable, but not lucrative, income. And I have the personal satisfaction of a job that I think was well done.
The answer is simple. More public law schools that are non profit, with high, but not ridiculously high, admission standards. Admit students who, because of their background, seem to have something that they will be able to contribute to society beyond just being another lawyer. And third, a loan forgiveness program for those who do use their legal training for the public good in public employment in fields where there is a shortage of qualified practitioners.
202
Some type of public service law such as public defender is an excellent idea. Maybe even a program similar to the military or Teach America where the recent law school graduate works as a public defender or as an attorney for non profits for a specified number of years and has a portion of their law school debt forgiven. I don't believe in forgiving debt unilaterally with the new attorney giving no consideration.
And somebody has to reign in the absolutely outrageous law school tuition and fees. There should be limits as to how much debt an individual student can take on.
But all this sounds like something the government at many levels has to work on so that means we need more lawyers. There are more than enough lawyers. What we need is better allocation of the human resources we already have.
And somebody has to reign in the absolutely outrageous law school tuition and fees. There should be limits as to how much debt an individual student can take on.
But all this sounds like something the government at many levels has to work on so that means we need more lawyers. There are more than enough lawyers. What we need is better allocation of the human resources we already have.
2
You were precisely the kind of person we need pursuing law today. Great story.
FYI $460 in 1970 = $2,865 today
Extraordinarily reasonable.
Extraordinarily reasonable.
Easy to correct! Have the school co-sign all school/ student loans. No school will co- sign for a pupil who has no chance of paying it back if the school will have to pay off the loan. Good schools ( Non- Profit or for profit) will continue to provide loans to qualified students.
174
Requiring a school to reimburse student loans is an off the wall idea favoring admission of rich kids and fraudulent student defaults. I'm guessing you're one of those who hasn't passed the bar.
1
Jim - You are right on target. It would be good for all of our schools to have some skin in the game - we'd have fewer for profit scam colleges, and fewer useless social science degrees! A win/win!
1
Forgiveness for Legal School loans should include public service as legal aids or pro-Bono counsel to the indigent.
72
I wouldn't mind my tax dollars used for that. Millions of poor people are screwed by the legal system due to inadequate representation. Not just in criminal matters but divorce and custody issues, injuries, employment issues.
2
But the point is, a lot of those student who fail to pay back what they owe never pass the bar. They are not lawyers and thus can't be counsel to the indigent or any one else!
Most people can't work for free even if it means loan forgiveness. Sounds good but hardly realistic.
Thank you for a very informative piece. Many young people with stars in their eyes believe all lawyers are wealthy.......they cannot fathom scouring the country for a $15K/yr gig as a paralegal as they struggle to pay for Bar exams (which they are unlikely to pass), and for student loans which will probably be paid up when they've been paralegals, retail clerks, or waiters for 40 years. Then they retire on SS based upon earnings ranging from $15K-$30K/yr.
Ummm, waiters might make a lot more than that.....and law school is not required.
Ummm, waiters might make a lot more than that.....and law school is not required.
48
Paralegals earn considerably more than that in good firms. Someone I know was a paralegal for a while-- and part of that time was supervising a pool of law school grads doing scutwork.
1
You write:
Ummm, waiters might make a lot more than that.....and law school is not required.
===
In the DC area, where I live, waiters with a JD degree will find many employment opportunities. Many of the wait staff in the restaurants my husband and I eat at, will provide free legal counsel as well as croutons, if requested.
Ummm, waiters might make a lot more than that.....and law school is not required.
===
In the DC area, where I live, waiters with a JD degree will find many employment opportunities. Many of the wait staff in the restaurants my husband and I eat at, will provide free legal counsel as well as croutons, if requested.
2
I wish I had never become a lawyer. I sat next to a guy from Yale law school a few months back. We made $37 an hour. That temp agency has now dropped to $34 an hour. The American Dream, not so much.
129
That fate awaits most temps. My billing rate can be up to $65/hr as an engineer or down as low as $45, as an engineer, depending on demand. With a recession on the way, temp pay is sliding.
1
You are aware that the minimum wage in most cities is far lower than $34 an hour, right?
But it's hard to imagine a wage high enough to trade your life for. Stop doing work that you find soul-killing and spend your time on projects that are closer to your making your heart sing.
But it's hard to imagine a wage high enough to trade your life for. Stop doing work that you find soul-killing and spend your time on projects that are closer to your making your heart sing.
1
That's the equivalent of $70k a year, well above median income.
1
Make sure you take a look at the veterinary schools also. The debt these people are running up they may never be able to pay back until they're ancient. And, it seems for profit veterinary schools are starting to pop up everywhere. As long as Uncle Sam makes it easy to get school loans, the sky's the limit as far as tuition and fees for these schools. Law students and recent law grads, you are not alone!!
60
I saw an ad on TV for a school teaching how to groom dogs, for potential high-paying careers as a Pet Smart dog groomer, no doubt...
This editorial points out a real problem. However, it's not clear from the article that Florida Coastal is part of the problem.It may well be, but the article doesn't provide the relevant statistics to back that up.
The editorial reports the median LSAT for the school and quotes someone as saying that it is unlikely that a student with that LSAT will pass the bar exam. But where are the statistics as to how many of this schools graduates have passed the exam? Wouldn't that be a better indicator of the usefulness of the degree? What about statistics as to how many of the schools graduates have law jobs 12 months or 18 months after graduation?
I'm not trying to defend Florida Coastal. For all I know, its record is terrible. But the editorial board needs to do a better job of evidentiary support for its opinions.
The editorial reports the median LSAT for the school and quotes someone as saying that it is unlikely that a student with that LSAT will pass the bar exam. But where are the statistics as to how many of this schools graduates have passed the exam? Wouldn't that be a better indicator of the usefulness of the degree? What about statistics as to how many of the schools graduates have law jobs 12 months or 18 months after graduation?
I'm not trying to defend Florida Coastal. For all I know, its record is terrible. But the editorial board needs to do a better job of evidentiary support for its opinions.
39
The statistics are in for Arizona Summit School of Law, owned by the same parent company as Florida Coastal. 28% pass rate for the July 2015 AZ Bar exam, compared to 85% for Arizona State University law school grads. It's possible Florida 's recent Bar results aren't out yet? The stats support this article.
Look up Florida Coastal School of Law in Wikipedia and check out its minority enrollment figures.
4
the nytimes concludes:
If fewer federal dollars were streaming into law schools’ coffers and more were directed to fund legal services organizations, the legal profession — and the American legal system as a whole — would be better for it.
a more rational conclusion would be that there are too many law schools and that many, if not most, simply need to close their doors. The best way to do this is by reducing student loans to law students. Problem solved, without the taxpayers footing the bill.
If fewer federal dollars were streaming into law schools’ coffers and more were directed to fund legal services organizations, the legal profession — and the American legal system as a whole — would be better for it.
a more rational conclusion would be that there are too many law schools and that many, if not most, simply need to close their doors. The best way to do this is by reducing student loans to law students. Problem solved, without the taxpayers footing the bill.
73
Is it just possible that the US has more lawyers than it needs? Some will no debt get very rich, many more will barely survive The same in the UK sadly.
The fix is simple. It should not be mandatory to attend law school to become a lawyer in the United States. Anyone who can pass the bar should be able to practice law. The amazing thing is that (1) not everyone who goes even to an elite law school passes the bar; (2) those people get to practice law after failing the bar while prepping to take it again; (3) unlike med school, law school provides nor requires any 'clinical' experience; (4) law school is an obvious barrier to entry to keep wages high.
This is the simplest problem in the world to fix. Law schools should still exist for those who want to attend them. But we should do away with making attendance at them a precondition of taking the bar.
(And yes, I too have lawyers in my family.)
This is the simplest problem in the world to fix. Law schools should still exist for those who want to attend them. But we should do away with making attendance at them a precondition of taking the bar.
(And yes, I too have lawyers in my family.)
21
I agree with this analysis and believe law school may be unnecessary for many people. It is a little-known but important fact that six states allow for apprenticeship instead of law school as a way of preparing for the bar exam. That is how I became a lawyer here in VT. These apprenticeships could become a great tool for a much broader group of law "students" if they were strengthened. (Note: you wrong about one thing. To my knowledge, no one who fails the bar exam anywhere can practice law while they are prepping to take it again. Some who fail may still be working at law firms as clerks or paralegals, but if what you described happened anywhere, that would constitute the unauthorized practice of law, which is a very serious matter.
1
The NY Times wrote an article on your suggestion that people be allowed to take the bar exam and, if they pass, be licensed to practice law in the jurisdiction, last year.
Currently, four states offer this option. As you write and the article points out, it lets those who truly want to do law do so without a law degree and makes the payment of loans a non-issue. Three other states, including NY, allow apprenticeship if one has taken one year of law school.
Read the article. It really is very informative and presents the pros and cons of this approach.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/how-to-learn-the-law-...
Currently, four states offer this option. As you write and the article points out, it lets those who truly want to do law do so without a law degree and makes the payment of loans a non-issue. Three other states, including NY, allow apprenticeship if one has taken one year of law school.
Read the article. It really is very informative and presents the pros and cons of this approach.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/how-to-learn-the-law-...
I have been a lawyer for 30 years. My sons have no inclination to follow in my footsteps, nor would I encourage them to do so.
56
Surely, this editorial is a joke, meant to induce an emotional appeal to the need to expand government with more lawyers. Lawyers in a debt crisis? Last time I checked the stats, lawyers were making three times the income of most Americans. The only streaming of federal dollars is the constant expansion of federal and state regulatory agencies to hire more lawyers to go about stripping us of our liberty and freedom. Perhaps it should highlight the fact the about one third of all lawyers are currently employed by government, both federal and state. Why? Lawyers in government service get to write off their loans after ten years. Taxpayers get to pick up the balance of on those loans. The average loan balance now being written off is $132,000. Remember, you do not need to pass any bar exam to work as a lawyer for the federal government, just need a law degree, it not mattering who the law school was. Could not be clearer what is fueling the 'debt crisis', its that the taxpayer's will be picking up loan balances after ten years.
18
Wrong. No one can work "as a lawyer" for the federal government or anywhere else without a license to practice law. The federal government or other entities might hire people with law degrees who can do legal research and writing, like paralegals can. But no one can argue cases, submit legal briefs, or give legal advice to anyone without a law license. Where do people get some of this blatant misinformation.?
5
You have to be barred in at least one state to be employee with the federal government as an attorney; it doesn't matter the state.
FYI, it is not as easy as you make it seem to write off your law school debts after 10 years in public service. For starters, only certain loans qualify. Secondly, you have the pay the loans, on time, each month, for ten years before the debt could be paid off (not that I think that is a particularly onerous requirement, but the point is you don't get rid of your debt by simply taking a government job and signing a few forms). Also, this is a relatively new program. When I looked into it, I learned that by the time I met the qualifications to have the loans written off, I'll have paid them off myself.
There are moments when I love being a l lawyer. There are other moments, however--lots of them--when I think it is the worst job in the world.
There are moments when I love being a l lawyer. There are other moments, however--lots of them--when I think it is the worst job in the world.
Solving student debt problems generally, including those affecting law students alone, will require an approach of several parts. The suggestions offered in this editorial make a lot of sense.
In the end, any overall solution must offer the following characteristics: 1) it must incentivize or require schools generally, and certainly law schools, to lower internal costs – perhaps more MOOCs or less physical plant construction, but get those costs down; 2) “free money” must be eliminated, perhaps by risk sharing between institutions and government in the event of defaults – if schools share the risk of defaults, they’ll be far more careful about the likelihood that any given student will graduate and earn; and 3) predatory institutions that rely for survival solely or almost entirely on government-guaranteed student debt need to be regulated far more intensively and possibly eliminated.
The issue of inadequate legal talent available for the immense and poorly-served demand for legal services among our poor is a separate problem. But consider: a risk-sharing arrangement for student loans generally in the event of default, but government assumption of ALL risk for law students who commit to serving for a fixed period in legal services organizations. Of course, this still would require a very large investment by government at all levels to fund those organizations – but lower overall cost in covering student debt defaults over time could help sell such an investment.
In the end, any overall solution must offer the following characteristics: 1) it must incentivize or require schools generally, and certainly law schools, to lower internal costs – perhaps more MOOCs or less physical plant construction, but get those costs down; 2) “free money” must be eliminated, perhaps by risk sharing between institutions and government in the event of defaults – if schools share the risk of defaults, they’ll be far more careful about the likelihood that any given student will graduate and earn; and 3) predatory institutions that rely for survival solely or almost entirely on government-guaranteed student debt need to be regulated far more intensively and possibly eliminated.
The issue of inadequate legal talent available for the immense and poorly-served demand for legal services among our poor is a separate problem. But consider: a risk-sharing arrangement for student loans generally in the event of default, but government assumption of ALL risk for law students who commit to serving for a fixed period in legal services organizations. Of course, this still would require a very large investment by government at all levels to fund those organizations – but lower overall cost in covering student debt defaults over time could help sell such an investment.
4
The law school 'debt crisis' is a 'law school' crisis. Too many law students, and too many lawyers, is the problem. In the US per year roughly 1500 PhD's are granted in mathematics, a fair portion to foreign students who will return to their homelands to teach and do mathematical research. By contrast, there are more than 40,000 law school graduates every year in the US. Is it any wonder we fare so poorly in international comparisons of math and science accomplishment?
64
We do not have "too many" lawyers. If that was the case, we would not have the crisis we do in lack of legal services for poor and working people. We do have too many law school grads saddled with so much debt that working in public service is not an option.
3
Exactly so, it seems that few US graduates want to do anything useful. Law and gender studies don't make you competitive. It is laziness and complacency. Hundreds of millions of Chinese were not lifted out of poverty and even starvation by this sort of middle class self-indulgence.
One thing that can be done is to make it a 2 year law school with the third year students interning for law firms. That way they can get real life experience and be making a little money, or at least breaking even, in their third year.
I am an attorney and I can tell you that the third year consists primarily of electives. If you haven't acquired an understanding of legal methodology by your third year then this is probably not the profession for you.
Law schools are the cash cows for many universities since they can charge high fees without a lot of the equipment and overhead necessary for medical and scientific postgraduate work. For this reason, universities will probably be hesitant to endorse this change.
I am an attorney and I can tell you that the third year consists primarily of electives. If you haven't acquired an understanding of legal methodology by your third year then this is probably not the profession for you.
Law schools are the cash cows for many universities since they can charge high fees without a lot of the equipment and overhead necessary for medical and scientific postgraduate work. For this reason, universities will probably be hesitant to endorse this change.
104
This editorial analysis is excellent. Taxpayers do pay for people to get useless law degrees that marketed only to enrich the owners of the law schools. Unfortunately you could extend this analysis to many components of our higher education system including many of the so called the not for profit schools. The American people are sucked in by a belief that the more money they spend on their "education" system the better educated they are. That is not true. More usually just means more not better
5
All ABA Approved schools are regulated by the matrix of the old diversity standard which includes allocated seat numbers so that the law schools would not over graduate law applicants into the legal profession. The ABA has again failed to take ownership and responsibility for their lack of enforcement. A law applicant is eligible for consideration into a law program with a LSAT test score of 120 and the LSDAS adjusted GPA of a 1.0. And although the ABA has now threaten the various law schools with accreditation violations.... they must now enroll only those who meet a 140 LSAT score. Again they have failed in providing proper oversight on the selection process into law school. And when coupled with the mass merger of nearly 60K companies and corporations through out the world over the last 15 years in support of Greenspan's 'I have a Capitalist Monopoly Dream' vision that too big would never fail...., the loss of corporate and distinguished firm law careers have all but diminished the opportunity for employment.... by even our best and brightest grads within the legal profession and yet taught by our law schools and professors that when one cannot bring a better good, product or service to market......Just merge and then fire everyone !! Thank you Jim Cramer and the CNBC Squawk Box and the great Fox Business Channel News.....Now that they have created the demise, the too never take ownership of their short term vision which has created a global business meltdown...
3
Some people go to law school not in the hope of making buckets of cash, but to bring justice to their communities. With long hours and low pay, being a government attorney is a noble pursuit. The catch is that most of these poor souls did not know just how poor they would actually be.
To that end, they certainly did not expect that they would be paid a lower salary than the courthouse custodian would, and they had no clue that they would be members of the working poor.
Sadly, the lowest paid person in most New York courtrooms is a newly minted assistant district attorney.
To that end, they certainly did not expect that they would be paid a lower salary than the courthouse custodian would, and they had no clue that they would be members of the working poor.
Sadly, the lowest paid person in most New York courtrooms is a newly minted assistant district attorney.
63
I passed the bar in GA a year ago yesterday and was sworn in to practice in November of last year.
I was hired for my first job representing indigent people in misdemeanor cases by a firm which is a privatized version of a PDs office offering a take it or leave it salary of 45K with no benefits. Because of the ACA, rightfully, I have to pay for my own healthcare or face a fine. A decent plan will lower my salary by 5-6K.
The partners openly tell you their business model is to hire and train new lawyers. They offer experience in exchange for a low salary. What goes unspoken is the partners pocket what would have been state or county benefits.
I graduated college with two degrees in 2002. I did not get a job in my field(s) after looking for more than three years in Michigan's failed economy. The job I did get after working in retail was for an energy company doing collections.
With union negotiated benefits, a job which required only an associates paid more than I will be making when I start as an attorney in November.
My law school fraudulently misrepresented their employment statistics when I applied. They claimed about a 90% job placement rate while inferring they were legal jobs. I came to discover they used ANY JOB for that rate; not legal jobs. The full-time legal rate is around 40%.
Armed with the truth, I never would have attended the school.
I am up to my neck in, basically, non-dischargable debt.
My life is ruined.
I was hired for my first job representing indigent people in misdemeanor cases by a firm which is a privatized version of a PDs office offering a take it or leave it salary of 45K with no benefits. Because of the ACA, rightfully, I have to pay for my own healthcare or face a fine. A decent plan will lower my salary by 5-6K.
The partners openly tell you their business model is to hire and train new lawyers. They offer experience in exchange for a low salary. What goes unspoken is the partners pocket what would have been state or county benefits.
I graduated college with two degrees in 2002. I did not get a job in my field(s) after looking for more than three years in Michigan's failed economy. The job I did get after working in retail was for an energy company doing collections.
With union negotiated benefits, a job which required only an associates paid more than I will be making when I start as an attorney in November.
My law school fraudulently misrepresented their employment statistics when I applied. They claimed about a 90% job placement rate while inferring they were legal jobs. I came to discover they used ANY JOB for that rate; not legal jobs. The full-time legal rate is around 40%.
Armed with the truth, I never would have attended the school.
I am up to my neck in, basically, non-dischargable debt.
My life is ruined.
2
Limiting the "free money" would have a disparate impact on the low income folks who should also have a chance at law school. It's not an accident that most of the lower-tiered law schools have a disproportionate number of minority and low-income students. There are systemic issues that continue to plague enrollment to the top schools- including giving too much weight to the LSAT. We should look at other means of addressing this issue rather than relying on the one (limiting student aid) that will give us a legal profession full of even more white, upperclass men.
12
Law schools are run for the benefit of law faculty. It is a stupid system involving law schools, the ABA, and US News. Anyone can get into a law school at some place. Congratulations, you won the opportunity to pay us 45K a year.
34
It goes without saying that any institution regardless of substance, style and stated purpose exists to benefit elites.
1
The amount of law school debt today for each law school attendee, is the biggest travesty in the field of education. Those who were duped into believing that they would be subsequently employed in the legal market, able to repay their loans and have sufficient funds to live, should have some reasonable recourse against these unscrupulous purveyors.
43
$160k of debt is only easily payable if one goes on to a big-city or corporate firm. The fundamental problem, as usual, is that American education costs too much.
87
it is never "easily payable." even for young lawyers with decent or good jobs the burden of law school debt goes on for years, impacting life, credit availability, and basic budgeting. having a job just means those paying their loan burdens aren't asking for "forgiveness" but rather meeting the obligation they incurred - but it certainly isn't "easy."
No one who graduates from Florida Coastal is going to a big-city or corporate firm. Nor is anyone who can't pass the bar.
"The consequences of this free flow of federal loans have been entirely predictable"
****
And not just at law schools. Throwing federal money at something usually results in its ballooning out of control.
****
And not just at law schools. Throwing federal money at something usually results in its ballooning out of control.
90
This appears to be an overly-broad interpretation of data. "Throwing' federal money at health-related problems appears to have resulted in substantial improvements in therapy over time.
1
I suggest you reflect on the practical differences between "federal money" and "federal loans" here.
2
How about throwing some money at our decaying infrastructure. Our government gave us the Internet, weather, communications, and GPS satellites and gave me two MIT masters degrees and a colonel's pension. Government is not our problem. Ignorance is our problem.
2
To find out why the law school debt situation persists, we need only ask who winds up with the government money the students cannot pay back. Beneficiaries are investors who own the for-profit law schools, the administrators and professors at law schools, and the institutions with which the law schools are affiliated. If law schools can charge high tuition they can subsidize other parts of the institution that cost more to run and cannot charge the same high tuition.
Young people are looking for a way to succeed in an economy that punishes ordinary people and saves its rewards for those at the top. If they go to law school, they will be too busy to question the structure of the economy, and after they graduate they will be too poor and busy trying to deal with their loans to support such basic questioning. They may figure out that they were duped into wasting time and incurring debt on something that was a very long shot for them (and is becoming a long shot for all but the very best). But with an enormous debt and severe money hurts, what can they do? Somebody made money off them, trashing their futures at the same time, and there is little they can do about it.
Young people are looking for a way to succeed in an economy that punishes ordinary people and saves its rewards for those at the top. If they go to law school, they will be too busy to question the structure of the economy, and after they graduate they will be too poor and busy trying to deal with their loans to support such basic questioning. They may figure out that they were duped into wasting time and incurring debt on something that was a very long shot for them (and is becoming a long shot for all but the very best). But with an enormous debt and severe money hurts, what can they do? Somebody made money off them, trashing their futures at the same time, and there is little they can do about it.
179
Major beneficiaries of all student loans are the for-profit corporations who purchased the modest debt many students took out in good faith - only to rachet up payments to levels no one can afford, thereby getting to force people into deferments or forebearance (refusing to accept partial payment),a and eventually getting to saddle borrowers with ten times what they borrowed. Student loans are merely the new indentured servitude to keep the populace from having any ability to question the 1%.
1
It is not the for profit schools that make the money, but the federal government is also making an obscene amount in interest payment along with the middlemen/collection and so called service providers.
The way to fix it is to allow the people who cannot pay based on a percentage of disposable income left after all living expenses such as rent, transport, food insurance etc. are subtracted.
The way to fix it is to allow the people who cannot pay based on a percentage of disposable income left after all living expenses such as rent, transport, food insurance etc. are subtracted.
2
Just so. And a good part of the reason is that some of those profits go to the political support of members of Congress who, in just one example, have required that veterans' educational benefits NOT be considered federal money in calculating whether a school receives at least 10% (only!!) of its money from other than federal sources.
Money is speech, our Supreme Court has said, and this is one sadly predictable result.
Money is speech, our Supreme Court has said, and this is one sadly predictable result.
1