I own a 2010 TDI Sportwagen with about 170K miles on it. I have run into many other TDI drivers and we have talked about our shared love for the great gas mileage, how fun it is to drive, nice pickup...never once has the (formerly positive) environmental impact come up. I bought this car because I had a supercommute and didn't want a hybrid. I do not plan on bringing it in for a "fix" that would impact my gas mileage negatively...I believe I am in the majority of TDI owners on that.
2
Simple, VW's mistake, they pay for it, EPA should force everyone to bring their car in, but also force VW to pay them a reasonable compensation, I would say somewhere around 2k to 4k per vehicle.
1
"“If we take a 10 percent hit in our gas mileage, I can live with that, but I won’t be happy,” said Patrick Downs, who lives in Port Angeles, Wash., and owns a 2013 Jetta TDI.
“If it is 25 percent or more and the performance is degraded to the point where the car has a lot less torque and pickup, that is going to make me very unhappy,” he added. “That is going to make me consider not getting the fix.”"
As I pointed out late last night, the actual performance hit will be less than 10%. I hope that the NYT will link to or report on the new Consumer Reports tests about this.
“If it is 25 percent or more and the performance is degraded to the point where the car has a lot less torque and pickup, that is going to make me very unhappy,” he added. “That is going to make me consider not getting the fix.”"
As I pointed out late last night, the actual performance hit will be less than 10%. I hope that the NYT will link to or report on the new Consumer Reports tests about this.
1
As a TDI owner, I agree that an essential part of the VW diesel repair is to repair its relations and trust with impacted owners while rectifying environmental issues. We don't want to drive these polluting cars but are stuck in purgatory until VW Corporate provides an acceptable solution. Until VW comes up with a 'fix,' it is too early to debate the owners' role and compliance. VW should give TDI owners a full and fair financial incentive to either enable owners trade in these cars for compliant vehicles or tolerate software and hardware solutions that negatively alter the performance of the vehicles. Owners don't want some class-action settlement that benefits trial lawyers or some big EPA fine that benefits Washington politicians. Use VW's Corporate capital to get these polluting cars fixed or off the road. And use criminal laws to prosecute Das Thieves!
16
I expect that the EPA and other state regulators will negotiate a fine that is based on the number of vehicles that get fixed in the coming years. For instance, for every vehicle that doesn't get fixed in the course of the next 3-5 years, VW will have to pay the maximum EPA fine ($19K), for those vehicles they do fix, they will incur a much lower fine (likely based on how long the car has been on the road without the fix). Obviously, this will provide a strong incentive for VW to compensate existing customers when they get the fix installed and it won't just be a $25 gift certificate.
1
What I don't understand is these cars easily pass inspection in Europe. About 1 in 3 cars in Europe are diesel. Are you saying that European environmental agencies are content with 30 times NOx from sedans?
1
This could be a problem... UNLESS Volkswagen has to pay the ongoing damage caused by those vehicles that don't get fixed. If so, then it will at least have an incentive to strongly encourage owners to cooperate in fixing the problem.
For some reason this whole thing reminds me of frozen yogurt. So many people believe frozen yogurt is the healthy desert only to find out that it often has as many calories and sometimes more sugar than ice cream. What angst this must be causing in a certain type of individual who were sold this smart technology. Schadenfreude is the new Fahrvergnügen.
4
One of the fixes should be buying the cars back at original selling price. Volkswagen cheated customers and should make them whole.
11
I guess my 2009 Jetta TDI had bad software. The highest MPG I observed was 44 MPG, not 50 - 55. In addition if the car was driven for mostly short trips, a warning light would appear along with a message on the instrument panel saying that the NOx trap was full. The solution was to drive the car for 20 miles or so at higher speeds to burn off the excess NOx in the canister.
As far as inspections go, in PA all diesels are exempt. So I'm wondering if my lower MPG was because my car was configured properly. Anyway, the need to keep making unnecessary longer trips to keep the warning from appearing made me trade it in for a gasoline car that still gets in the high 30s. With what's transpired since, I consider myself lucky.
As far as inspections go, in PA all diesels are exempt. So I'm wondering if my lower MPG was because my car was configured properly. Anyway, the need to keep making unnecessary longer trips to keep the warning from appearing made me trade it in for a gasoline car that still gets in the high 30s. With what's transpired since, I consider myself lucky.
3
My family cars are not VW diesels and they can not be registered or driven on the highway if they do not pass smog law requirements. Why are the VW "gross polluter" diesels still on the highway? These gross polluting cars should be towed to the dealership and left there until repaired. VW must provide rental cars to those that have lost the use of their "gross polluting" diesel. Repair of the VW diesels can be guaranteed by requiring evidence of repair before the car can be registered.
5
The Federal Government need only take the hint from the solution California has never had the need to implement. No state shall receive matching highway funds unless it creates a mandatory scheme where the affected VWs are proven to have undergone the needed repairs. For example, each VW owner must receive the necessary certificate from VW that the vehicle has been fixed to obtain state vehicle registration. The various comments by people willing to pour pollution into our air because they do not get 50 MPG prove that Federal/State intervention is necessary to protect the environment.
2
"Why are the VW "gross polluter" diesels still on the highway? "
Why are all the gross polluter thunderstorms allowed to cause NOx to be released into the atmosphere? It's part of the nitrogen cycle without which we could not survive as a species. Carbon Dioxide, methane and particulates are much greater problems.
Why are all the gross polluter thunderstorms allowed to cause NOx to be released into the atmosphere? It's part of the nitrogen cycle without which we could not survive as a species. Carbon Dioxide, methane and particulates are much greater problems.
4
VW's misdeeds are bad enough on their own without continued use of "up to 40x legal NOx" as the measure of the problem. The NY Times itself has published figures in more detail. Averaging across 4 types of driving conditions, the NOx from a 2011 Jetta was 29x legal and from a 2012 Passat it was 16x legal.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/international/vw-diesel...
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/international/vw-diesel...
7
I share the anger of all the "duped" VW customers, and I believe that it took more than a few German engineers to pull off this deception. I feel that the only way they can "fix" this problem is not to recall and alter the cars, but to buy back these vehicles. That, in my mind, would be the only remedy.
I have a Jetta TDI Sportwagen, which was not inexpensive.....should have stuck with BMW.....or, better yet, wean myself off German engineering altogether.....
I have a Jetta TDI Sportwagen, which was not inexpensive.....should have stuck with BMW.....or, better yet, wean myself off German engineering altogether.....
15
The government should impose fines on VW for every vehicle that is not repaired via the recall that is still on the road. Therefore VW will have a strong incentive to compensate the owners of the vehicles that need repairs/upgrade. Its VW's intentional action that caused the problem, VW should not be allowed to profit by recalcitrant owners.
8
It might be a shrewd investment to buy a used TDI now before the fix is installed. Your last chance to buy a great state of the art diesel car unencumbered by EPA pollution controls.
9
Until said car needs to be registered and does not pass the emission test because it's VIN was reported to the DMV.
2
Great idea, Mike. And you're willing to pay for polluting the air others breathe, right?
3
I'm considering this, as I could register the car in my own state.
"But unlike the case with the Volkswagens, that was for a potentially fatal defect ...."
Are you saying that nitrogen oxide pollution doesn't cause disease and death?
Are you saying that nitrogen oxide pollution doesn't cause disease and death?
4
Hapless Jetta TDI Sportswagen owner here. Never occurred to me that my fellow diesel-duped comrades might choose NOT to participate in a recall until I read your article. That attitude would fit with a general I-don't-wanna-know-about-it feeling I get from the TDI owners around town (Portland, OR) who neither honk, smile nor give any indication of shared outrage on seeing my bumper stickers, created right after the scandal broke so I could let off my own steam. Talk To Me About Sins If Emission!
1
I'm already getting offers in the mail to join lawsuits that demand an immediate settlement from VW of A. I'm pretty sure that there will be a solution from VW that allows me to keep driving my TDI long before any 'immediate settlement' has been completed.
3
Volkswagen needs to reach out to John Deere about how to meet the nitrous oxide requirements. It is my understanding that high degrees of exhaust solves the problem. Can VW re-engineer their TDI engine to meet exhaust requirements?
1
VW should immediately offer to refund their duped customers' purchase prices, including TTL, in exchange for a release from litigation. Just do it now. It's far cheaper than any alternative. If VW augments this buyback program with future TDI owner loyalty discounts, they might just turn this corporate disaster around.
5
I thought I would never say something like this but I want to sue Volkswagen. A couple of years ago I bought a Touareg. I am not a car enthusiast but I like this car and talked more about the positives of this car more than I have ever done with any other car. More recently we bought a Golf for my wife and had been pleased with it as well… Now this.
We have now all lost a level of credibility if we have touted the virtues of our diesel believing them to be better than they actually are.. And we have all lost value in these cars. I doubt anyone could sell their Volkswagen for a price they could have gotten a few months ago. Even the Touareg(not the same engine) has lost value I assume, but certainly our Golf has. This is totally Volkswagen’s fault.
So I would like to see Volkswagen pay up.. Not only fix the engine, but pay for lost value and probable excess fuel costs.
We have now all lost a level of credibility if we have touted the virtues of our diesel believing them to be better than they actually are.. And we have all lost value in these cars. I doubt anyone could sell their Volkswagen for a price they could have gotten a few months ago. Even the Touareg(not the same engine) has lost value I assume, but certainly our Golf has. This is totally Volkswagen’s fault.
So I would like to see Volkswagen pay up.. Not only fix the engine, but pay for lost value and probable excess fuel costs.
4
Blowing way out of proportion, only fault is NOX emissions, not even all emissions, HP and performance, and economy all still excellent.
3
When VW buys my car back and deals with their problem themselves... then I may continue to be a customer.
6
VW is just the tip of the iceberg. Attempts to regulate vehicle emissions are futile. The law makers and regulators seem clueless about the nature of computer controlled engine tuning. Any owner of a newer vehicle can go out and buy a device to reprogram a vehicle's performance. Most vehicles are under tuned, and reprogramming can boost horsepower and mileage significantly. When it's time for the EPA check, you just hook up the tuning device and set the computers back to factory spec.
A good mechanic can pull the whole engine and exhaust and drop in a high performance setup for street racing. When the annual or biannual EPA test notice comes you take a night or two and replace the detuned factory setup. The EPA does not have the manpower or resources to properly regulate emissions. "Properly" would mean random traffic stops on suspect vehicles.
A good mechanic can pull the whole engine and exhaust and drop in a high performance setup for street racing. When the annual or biannual EPA test notice comes you take a night or two and replace the detuned factory setup. The EPA does not have the manpower or resources to properly regulate emissions. "Properly" would mean random traffic stops on suspect vehicles.
5
Like all aspects of life, society only functions because most people do not behave in an anti-social manner: most car owners do not wish to subvert pollution controls because they prefer to have clean air.
Just as no home is secure: we nearly all have glass windows which are ridiculously easy to break and so on - and most American don't even have shutters like French single family homes do!. But most people chose not to be burglars, so it is not an issue for us.
The suggestion that something should not be regulated because total enforcement is unfeasible is silly rhetoric.
Just as no home is secure: we nearly all have glass windows which are ridiculously easy to break and so on - and most American don't even have shutters like French single family homes do!. But most people chose not to be burglars, so it is not an issue for us.
The suggestion that something should not be regulated because total enforcement is unfeasible is silly rhetoric.
9
Will VW's competitors sue VW for fraud considering how many sales they must have lost to VW's deliberate deception?
1
Probably not since too much dirty laundry around the industry would be aired, but it is a sword of Damocles hanging over VW and is one more reason they will likely be very compliant with regulators.
3
VW and the EPA should promote a badge or sticker that identifies owners who got the "Low-Pollution" repair. That plus advertising will create social pressure to have the sticker.
3
How much for faux repair stickers? Badges are too expensive unless VWoA provides them for free with every "repair".
2
This is not just about the purchasers of said vehicles. The pollution hurts each and every one of us. The people that run VW should be required to eliminate the extra pollution their lies created and the "deciders" at VW themselves should be held fully responsible with their own dollars and own jail sentences.
VW, as with any corporation, has no brain of it's own and, contrary to SCOTUS, is not a "person!" We must hold the human people responsible and use our actions against them as a future deterrent to others.
VW, as with any corporation, has no brain of it's own and, contrary to SCOTUS, is not a "person!" We must hold the human people responsible and use our actions against them as a future deterrent to others.
6
I live in one of those states requiring vehicles each year to pass emissions tests before a car can be registered. With emission tests being far less sophisticated than the E.P.A.’s, thousands of Volkswagens, across the U.S. will pass the required emissions tests, while all other cars with emissions issues will fail.
Since the EPA cannot force Volkswagen owners to repair the faulty emissions system on their vehicle, the government needs to find a way to allow emission testing to be fair to all, or just do away with the emissions test altogether.
Since the EPA cannot force Volkswagen owners to repair the faulty emissions system on their vehicle, the government needs to find a way to allow emission testing to be fair to all, or just do away with the emissions test altogether.
2
or you could move to a state that doesn't have emissions testing... that works too and doesn't burden others with your poor choice.
3
Of course. Let's aim for Beijing or Paris air quality in NJ or CA asap. Nothing works like a race to the bottom in environmental degradation. Just hope that no one you like has asthma.
5
Please note that I have exclusively bought unusually environmentally friendly cars throughout this entire century so far, including an early 2000 Honda Insight and '05 Toyota Prius. I've gotten too old to run around like a boy racer anymore (although the little Insight could sometimes take me back in a fit of nostalgia for my old '67 Alfa Spider that I owned in the mid-'70s -- you know, just the one Dustin Hoffman drove in "The Graduate" -- That little Insight, with its 5-speed manual, could SCOOT!)
However, if I had bought a Golf TDI, which was admittedly a tempting choice when I last went car shopping, I doubt that I would opt to perform the recall "repairs." Had I chosen the TDI, my decision would have been based on driving dynamics and engine performance, something that these "repairs" are absolutely certain to impact in a significant way. It would lose the very characteristics that made it an attractive purchase.
I believe Volkswagen should purchase these back from owners at the original full purchase price including tax, delivery charge, and everything else a dealer tacks on, with the excess payment over the Blue Book for the used vehicle a punitive charge in recognition of their deliberate deception.
However, if I had bought a Golf TDI, which was admittedly a tempting choice when I last went car shopping, I doubt that I would opt to perform the recall "repairs." Had I chosen the TDI, my decision would have been based on driving dynamics and engine performance, something that these "repairs" are absolutely certain to impact in a significant way. It would lose the very characteristics that made it an attractive purchase.
I believe Volkswagen should purchase these back from owners at the original full purchase price including tax, delivery charge, and everything else a dealer tacks on, with the excess payment over the Blue Book for the used vehicle a punitive charge in recognition of their deliberate deception.
12
There may be a way to force owners to make their cars emissions compliant. Which they should be forced to do, since the emissions hurts us all.
Now that the function of the software is know, there may be a way during emissions testing to fool the software and not have it go into "clean" mode. Then the car will not pass the test and owners will have to get the car fixed.
These cars claimed to meet US emissions standards which they don't. They should not be allowed to be driven.
How Volkswagen makes amends to these owners is their problem.
Now that the function of the software is know, there may be a way during emissions testing to fool the software and not have it go into "clean" mode. Then the car will not pass the test and owners will have to get the car fixed.
These cars claimed to meet US emissions standards which they don't. They should not be allowed to be driven.
How Volkswagen makes amends to these owners is their problem.
12
Yes. It would be possible for NJ and CA to introduce a 4-wheel dynomometer as it were then the software would be fooled into thinking it was not a test.
So Volkswagen is now the scapegoat for pollution from all carbon based sources. Wow, that must make the petroleum and coal industries very happy to have someone else to blame for their emissions!
7
Actually, it is the EPA's problem, not VW owner's problems. It was the EPA's testing which was found to be faulty and incompetent, no fault of the owner's.
It passes the test. Change the test? Grandfathered! Thank you.
It passes the test. Change the test? Grandfathered! Thank you.
2
If you buy a regular pizza and get a large pizza instead, have you 'gotten what you paid" for? No, and if you have any ethics at all, you will return what does not belong to you is asked.
As an owner of a clean diesel, I find the sentiments of Mr. Hinton both illogical and inconsistent with the feelings of most owners. He has been getting 52 miles to the gallon and paid for 40 miles to the gallon. He may want to keep getting 52 miles to the gallon - we all want more of everything, don't we? - but he is not entitled to it. nd this analysis ignores the excessive polluting - he is not entitled to keep polluting. Most owners - who bought the cars for environmental reasons - are unlikely to be as selfish as the proverbial Jeff Hinton.
As an owner of a clean diesel, I find the sentiments of Mr. Hinton both illogical and inconsistent with the feelings of most owners. He has been getting 52 miles to the gallon and paid for 40 miles to the gallon. He may want to keep getting 52 miles to the gallon - we all want more of everything, don't we? - but he is not entitled to it. nd this analysis ignores the excessive polluting - he is not entitled to keep polluting. Most owners - who bought the cars for environmental reasons - are unlikely to be as selfish as the proverbial Jeff Hinton.
6
"Your Mileage May Vary"
That's a good point but you must keep in mind that many TDI owners bought these cars on the assumption that they would get better than advertised mpg. Sales people at the dealerships told people that they could expect 50+ mpg on the freeway as well as many popular automotive magazines and publications. So to go back to your pizza analogy, it would be like the pizza place telling you that your "regular" pizza is really a "large" before you ordered. If you bought that pizza and they suddenly said, "Sorry, we made a mistake, please take this regular pizza that is no longer as big as a large", you would be pretty upset and feel entitled to that large pizza.
6
Ethics?? There are no ethics in the 21st Century, just look at Congress and the Obama Administration! They not only have no ethics; they are hypocrites masquerading as Conservative Christians pandering for votes.
2
Question I have not seen addressed anywhere:
How do these TDI engines perform on emissions tests when converted to Biodiesel?
Many older diesel cars have been converted by owners to run vegetable oil instead of petroleum based diesel fuel. If the emissions are not a problem,
maybe owners can be offered this option at VW's expense.
How do these TDI engines perform on emissions tests when converted to Biodiesel?
Many older diesel cars have been converted by owners to run vegetable oil instead of petroleum based diesel fuel. If the emissions are not a problem,
maybe owners can be offered this option at VW's expense.
4
There is no "converted to biodiesel"... You either put that in your tank or the petroleum version. Same engine.
To answer your question, same emissions too. NOx is produced from heat, both nitrogen and oxygen come from the atmosphere, not the fuel.
To answer your question, same emissions too. NOx is produced from heat, both nitrogen and oxygen come from the atmosphere, not the fuel.
Biodiesel and WVO (waste vegetable oil) are very different things. There is no "conversion" for biodiesel whereas WVO does require significant hardware additions. You can do your own research on the emissions of WVO, but as for biodiesel, it tends to produce slightly HIGHER NOx.
Hi
The entire car industry are struggling to manage EURO6 demands. The answer to that, will be alternative ways of transportation. Like train, tubes, busses e.g. In that matter US have a much longer way to climb then Europe. As far as I know, US is second best in the world whne it comes to polution. Still, most the money demand for the VW trouble will com from US citizens. No wonder many think of you as teh "Castle of double moral"
The entire car industry are struggling to manage EURO6 demands. The answer to that, will be alternative ways of transportation. Like train, tubes, busses e.g. In that matter US have a much longer way to climb then Europe. As far as I know, US is second best in the world whne it comes to polution. Still, most the money demand for the VW trouble will com from US citizens. No wonder many think of you as teh "Castle of double moral"
4
How silly. The US and Japan lead the world in emissions controls. The Japanese requirement for LNG power for all buses and taxis (for many decades now) has been successfully emulated in India. There is none of this in holier-than-thou Europe.
European governments' avid promotion of diesel in the last 20 years has a sort of 'why fry later (from global warming) when you can die now (from asthma related to NOx pollution)' irony that is second to none.
The UK government at least was quite aware of this irony and did nothing: after all, the emissions problems of diesels are hardly a recent discovery. The government of California did not succumb to the diesel lobby, which is to their credit.
European governments' avid promotion of diesel in the last 20 years has a sort of 'why fry later (from global warming) when you can die now (from asthma related to NOx pollution)' irony that is second to none.
The UK government at least was quite aware of this irony and did nothing: after all, the emissions problems of diesels are hardly a recent discovery. The government of California did not succumb to the diesel lobby, which is to their credit.
3
Emissions are tougher in the US. This is why we have very few diesel cars in the US. The only cars here are from Europe and it looks like they cheated to get them here. That said, emissions are regulated by bureaucrats that know nothing about internal combustion engines. They set limits to the amount of CO2 that comes out of an engine. Something has to come out of that tailpipe. If anything, CO2 is the best, plants need it to live and they convert it back to oxygen.
VW should repurchase all of it's cars affected. ( They could resell them in some country that doesn't have air pollution laws). This would be typical of their thinking.
6
My wife and I each have a TDI, and we are both following this closely. To begin with, we bought the things for the incredible fuel economy, and we paid a premium for this. As things stand, we easily get 50 mpg on the highway.
If VW's fix is to cause the fuel economy to drop down to say 42 (what the EPA sticker for the car said), then any advantage of having a TDI is completely negated. There are other cars out there that can achieve those levels without paying a premium for diesel. And as things stand, the values of these cars have plummeted - this is why there are so many people demanding a buy-back.
If VW's fix involves retrofitting SCR injection to my car, then I want to know how they ensure that the dealer has installed the thing correctly. Dealers in general have a reputation for cutting corners on the work that they do, and if the service techs cut corners on this then who knows how the thing will behave. And will there be an additional warranty on all of these emissions control components?
I don't believe for a second that it was a small rogue group of engineers at VW that are responsible. Bosch warned VW back in 2007 that using software like this was illegal in production cars - I have no doubt that investigators will start with the people to whom that letter was addressed.
If VW's fix is to cause the fuel economy to drop down to say 42 (what the EPA sticker for the car said), then any advantage of having a TDI is completely negated. There are other cars out there that can achieve those levels without paying a premium for diesel. And as things stand, the values of these cars have plummeted - this is why there are so many people demanding a buy-back.
If VW's fix involves retrofitting SCR injection to my car, then I want to know how they ensure that the dealer has installed the thing correctly. Dealers in general have a reputation for cutting corners on the work that they do, and if the service techs cut corners on this then who knows how the thing will behave. And will there be an additional warranty on all of these emissions control components?
I don't believe for a second that it was a small rogue group of engineers at VW that are responsible. Bosch warned VW back in 2007 that using software like this was illegal in production cars - I have no doubt that investigators will start with the people to whom that letter was addressed.
27
"If VW's fix involves retrofitting SCR injection to my car, then I want to know how they ensure that the dealer has installed the thing correctly. Dealers in general have a reputation for cutting corners on the work that they do, and if the service techs cut corners on this then who knows how the thing will behave. And will there be an additional warranty on all of these emissions control components?"
-- Eric, Vienna VA
Very good point. And another legitimate, huge, and hugely legitimate concern. It would be a major understatement to call my experience with VW dealership service departments, as a VW guy for about 15 years now, "hit or miss." Sometimes it's absolutely awful; other times it's just fine and exactly what you expect. Totally depends on the service-writer person and the mechanic involved. Some trips to dealer service have been nothing short of a frustrating joke. Taking those matters up with VW's "Customer Care" folks never got me anywhere; they stand behind what the dealer says/does no matter what, even if it's patently and demonstrably wrong.
I've always figured that once you're fully out of warranty coverage you want a good independent shop, period, ideally one that specializes in your make. VW has, over the years, convinced me of the validity of this idea.
-- Eric, Vienna VA
Very good point. And another legitimate, huge, and hugely legitimate concern. It would be a major understatement to call my experience with VW dealership service departments, as a VW guy for about 15 years now, "hit or miss." Sometimes it's absolutely awful; other times it's just fine and exactly what you expect. Totally depends on the service-writer person and the mechanic involved. Some trips to dealer service have been nothing short of a frustrating joke. Taking those matters up with VW's "Customer Care" folks never got me anywhere; they stand behind what the dealer says/does no matter what, even if it's patently and demonstrably wrong.
I've always figured that once you're fully out of warranty coverage you want a good independent shop, period, ideally one that specializes in your make. VW has, over the years, convinced me of the validity of this idea.
10
In Connecticut I can't get an emissions test, as required by law, if my check engine line is illuminated. How hard will it be to add a the requirement that your automobile have the latest version of the emissions software installed ? That law should apply to all makes and models not just to Volkswagens.
2
Oklahoma doesn't require any auto inspections for licensing and it has become quite the fad for diesel truck drivers to licensing and it has become quite the fad for diesel truck drivers to smoke up their exhaust--a sort of redneck middle finger to what they consider the tree huggers and socially conscientious. I will see a huge plume of smoke coming from a truck exhaust and think it is a vehicle with engine trouble only to come up on a brand new pick up with a preening owner, often with a Gadsden or Confederate flag bumper sticker. Anyone wanting to sell their VW diesel will find Oklahoma a welcoming market I suspect.
6
I grew up at Port Angeles, so I know that the town of 15,000 souls is about as far as you can get from New York geographically, economically, and socially. Yes, LA is further in miles, but closer in other aspects. I'm surprised you couldn't find a VW diesel owner willing to comment for the record a little closer to home!
As the owner of a 2013 SportWagen TDi the idea of having the 'fix' applied is laughable. Got a letter from VW NA a week or so ago apologizing. Wasted paper, no need with this consumer. My concern is the future, this is my second TDi and when it gets too old my plan was to get another. I hope the EPA does not make VW ruin these cars. As currently built they are a far better choice than a Prius if you make longer trips. Plus at trade it, how much is a used battery worth, appraisal of used diesels has been going on for decades.
As an aside my last TDi with 180K before I traded was a whole lot dirtier then this 2013 so I seriously do not understand the fuss. I could romp down on the old one and look like double naught seven laying down a smoke screen to escape the bad guys, this new one, nothing.
As an aside my last TDi with 180K before I traded was a whole lot dirtier then this 2013 so I seriously do not understand the fuss. I could romp down on the old one and look like double naught seven laying down a smoke screen to escape the bad guys, this new one, nothing.
4
We had a Prius with close to 200K miles on it, battery still great.
1
So you enjoy polluting?
Exactly. Hemming and hawing about how to force consumers to make this right is a colossal joke. Owners who won't get the fix = antisocial murderers, when it's no worse than tooling around in an outdated vehicle.
1
Simple, you fine VW for every car that is not taken in for a retrofit. Then they have a reason to make it a good deal for people to do it.
3
This is appalling. If the emissions violate the Clean Air Act, then there should be NO choice given. If owners need to be compensated for having bought a vehicle whose performance suffers, then that is a separate matter to be redressed through consumer protection channels.
But Americans shouldn't have to breathe those illegal emissions.
Here in Brussels, my wife has already been informed that her VW will have to be brought in and corrected. No choice about it.
But Americans shouldn't have to breathe those illegal emissions.
Here in Brussels, my wife has already been informed that her VW will have to be brought in and corrected. No choice about it.
13
If the choice you want costs money, either pay up, or shut up about it.
According to Wired's article about tests done by Consumer Reports, a TDI that's running with the emissions controls working properly will lose 6 to 9% off the car's mileage, and add less than a second to the zero to 60 acceleration time.
If that's true, I really don't understand why VW did what they did; it doesn't seem worth it.
Quote from Wired (Alex Davies):
"To figure out precisely how “cheat mode” changed those numbers, Consumer Reports hacked its way into a 2015 Jetta TDI and 2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI, tricking them into thinking they were being tested by the EPA, then put them on the track.
According to CR, both cars added less than a second in the 0 to 60 mph time. The Jetta saw fuel economy drop from 53 to 50 mpg, and the Sportwagen went from 50 to 46 mpg."
http://www.wired.com/2015/10/vw-diesel-cheat-mode-mpg-performance/
For some reason, Wired's article about CR's tests has more detail that CR's own article; you have to watch CR's embedded video (by Jake Fisher) to get the details.
If that's true, I really don't understand why VW did what they did; it doesn't seem worth it.
Quote from Wired (Alex Davies):
"To figure out precisely how “cheat mode” changed those numbers, Consumer Reports hacked its way into a 2015 Jetta TDI and 2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI, tricking them into thinking they were being tested by the EPA, then put them on the track.
According to CR, both cars added less than a second in the 0 to 60 mph time. The Jetta saw fuel economy drop from 53 to 50 mpg, and the Sportwagen went from 50 to 46 mpg."
http://www.wired.com/2015/10/vw-diesel-cheat-mode-mpg-performance/
For some reason, Wired's article about CR's tests has more detail that CR's own article; you have to watch CR's embedded video (by Jake Fisher) to get the details.
3
Because to meet US emissions standards they would have to have fitted urea systems (as VW does on other larger models and BMW and Mercedes do). That would have cost hundreds of dollars. So under extreme pressure from the notoriously 'macho' chairman to meet expansion and profit targets someone decided to cheat.
Once they decided to cheat in the US, why not in Europe, despite the fact that they need not have bothered since European emission standards are much weaker (and London and Paris have air pollution to rival Beijing - but since it is invisible NOx and micro particulates no one complained until recently).
Once they decided to cheat in the US, why not in Europe, despite the fact that they need not have bothered since European emission standards are much weaker (and London and Paris have air pollution to rival Beijing - but since it is invisible NOx and micro particulates no one complained until recently).
1
The owners paid for the MPG on the sticker, not what they got in reality.
1
I also paid for what the salesman convincingly told me. He accurately described the great fuel efficiency TDI owners were experiencing and there was no reason to doubt him.
Not true. First of all, what vehicle EVER gets the MPG on the sticker? "Your Mileage May Vary"! The fact is that most TDI owners paid for the MPG they believed they would get, as often discussed by other owners, not to mention VW salespeople.
1
So you always believe sales people? Are you looking for a good bridge to buy?
Jetta TDI owner here.
NYT, are you really putting the onus on the owners here?
Every time I've met another TDI owner, before the lie broke, we shared our great satisfaction with these wonder machines: better-than-sticker real world fuel economy, real world performance for those of us who commute, and a low environmental footprint in production and operation (just look into what it takes to manufacture and "recycle" Prius batteries). And now we all know we got hoodwinked. It was too good to be true.
But to expect the owner to make it right while endorsing the cheap and easy fix for VW? I'm surprised, NYT.
If VW really wants to be the environmentally-friendly brand, they should retrofit urea filters, similar to the ones in the Touareg TDI and the Audi TDIs. Or buy the cars back. Both are options that Horn said are being considered, but your story just played into his hands.
It is not up to the owner, NYT. VW made this mess--the greatest corporate fraud to date--and we should all be tapping our toes impatiently until they find a way to deliver what they promised when they sold us cars. It will just cost them a bit.
Unless an international media outlet makes the owners look like the bad guys....
NYT, are you really putting the onus on the owners here?
Every time I've met another TDI owner, before the lie broke, we shared our great satisfaction with these wonder machines: better-than-sticker real world fuel economy, real world performance for those of us who commute, and a low environmental footprint in production and operation (just look into what it takes to manufacture and "recycle" Prius batteries). And now we all know we got hoodwinked. It was too good to be true.
But to expect the owner to make it right while endorsing the cheap and easy fix for VW? I'm surprised, NYT.
If VW really wants to be the environmentally-friendly brand, they should retrofit urea filters, similar to the ones in the Touareg TDI and the Audi TDIs. Or buy the cars back. Both are options that Horn said are being considered, but your story just played into his hands.
It is not up to the owner, NYT. VW made this mess--the greatest corporate fraud to date--and we should all be tapping our toes impatiently until they find a way to deliver what they promised when they sold us cars. It will just cost them a bit.
Unless an international media outlet makes the owners look like the bad guys....
61
In the US they will have to fit urea systems: there is no other way to meet US emissions standards. In Europe, where emissions control are lax anyway (by the standards of the US, Japan and India at least) it is said they plan not to.
After lengthy research and consideration I got my new Sportwagen TDi on Sept 10. The new car excitement lasted one week then the cheating came to light. I am now upset, confused, disappointed, and frustrated. I really like the car but am now filled with doubt as to what the future holds for it. I feel glad that I did lease the vehicle, so if there is a loss of value, it will be VW's.
4
Sounds like they are still lying. What is it with giant corporations and telling the truth?
4
There are an awful lot of vehicles on the road that are worse polluters than the VW TDI's, and not by a small margin.
VW's crime here lies in deceitful promotion, and overly ambitious management.
Not defensible, in my view. But the cars themselves are really very well designed.
The open debate will be governmental action. Europe is recalling all affected TDI's, based on the US news that they don't meet CA EPA rules. They DO meet the more lax EU rules, however...or it is so believed.
My greatest concern is that gov't reflex will be more based on politics driven by emotional hand-wringing, rather than on real data.
So...we traded our 2013 Jetta TDI sport wagon in on a slightly larger gas driven SUV. Now getting 28-30 mpg instead of 48-50. Can anyone tell me what the net production of NOx and SOx is, between the vehicles? The test data is available to the government--why isn't it being published?
This is as much a scandal in public administration as it is a demonstration of commercial fraud, and creative engineering.
VW's crime here lies in deceitful promotion, and overly ambitious management.
Not defensible, in my view. But the cars themselves are really very well designed.
The open debate will be governmental action. Europe is recalling all affected TDI's, based on the US news that they don't meet CA EPA rules. They DO meet the more lax EU rules, however...or it is so believed.
My greatest concern is that gov't reflex will be more based on politics driven by emotional hand-wringing, rather than on real data.
So...we traded our 2013 Jetta TDI sport wagon in on a slightly larger gas driven SUV. Now getting 28-30 mpg instead of 48-50. Can anyone tell me what the net production of NOx and SOx is, between the vehicles? The test data is available to the government--why isn't it being published?
This is as much a scandal in public administration as it is a demonstration of commercial fraud, and creative engineering.
13
Gasoline vehicles emit fewer NOx emissions, which contribute to smog. They do, however, emit an exponentially greater percentage of CO2, which is a principal contributor to climate change.
2
90% of the time a car is driving at a constant speed. So it doesn't need extra power and having those filters switched on wouldn't even be noticed by the drivers.
So for me the big question would be: how much flexibility can VW - and the US government - offer the VW drivers in programming their car.
So for me the big question would be: how much flexibility can VW - and the US government - offer the VW drivers in programming their car.
1
I live in a mountainous region of the northeastern US. I bought my Sportwagen TDI manual for its torque on those hills. Believe me, I'd notice any diminished performance immediately.
3
I own a 2010 VW Golf TDI. I intend to have VW correct the cars emissions problem. I like to sleep at night, thank you. And in what kind of culture can a corporation (GM) offer $25 (as a form of indemnity?) for a defect that has caused deaths? Oh yes: ours.
14
The government should require VW to repurchase all of the effected cars at the original purchase price. Then VW can repair them and resell them at the current market value to customers who are interested. Simple and fair.
11
How is it fair that VW should repurchase the vehicles at full resale value when owners have had use of the vehicles for up to 6 years? If anything, they should be repurchased at their resale value just before the scandal.
2
Why, to preserve what little is left of VW's reputation. They fraudulently misrepresented their TDI technology to customers who now have seriously depreciated vehicles that came with high purchase prices because they were TDIs.
As a former owner of at 2011 Golf TDI, owns a 2015 GTI, and has owned VWs since 1968 - I recommend that VWoA either makes TDI owners happy or loses loyal VW owners who have sustained VWoA sales for decades.
As a former owner of at 2011 Golf TDI, owns a 2015 GTI, and has owned VWs since 1968 - I recommend that VWoA either makes TDI owners happy or loses loyal VW owners who have sustained VWoA sales for decades.
Odd things in this story. I want to see proof that a 4 cylinder 2500 pound car is producing more pollution then a 80,000 pound truck.
36
My sentiments, exactly. My eyebrows went up to my scalp reading that one. There's a lot of misinformation circulating out there and until VW actually announces their specific plan, it's all hearsay and speculation.
4
Read the detail on the VW 2.0 4-cylinder TDI if you really are interested. They are in effect without any emissions control in normal use, creating 40 times the legal emissions (you read that right: 40 times, or 4,000% more, not 40% more). That makes the ratio rather to be expected (80,000/2,500).
The truck after all, is not bypassing emissions controls.
The truck after all, is not bypassing emissions controls.
3
The pollution may be 40 times greater than an emission controlled deisel car or truck per unit of volume of exhaust, but the car produces a much lower volume of exhaust than the truck, doesn't it?
Thanks for this excellent article and comments.
The harmful health effects on people - especially in urban areas - that VW has caused are yet to be fully understood. VW owes owners and all air breathers an enormous debt that must be paid.
The harmful health effects on people - especially in urban areas - that VW has caused are yet to be fully understood. VW owes owners and all air breathers an enormous debt that must be paid.
5
The re-sale value for non-fix diesel VW's may actually increase in states where they're permitted. There will be a kind of shadow black market. We can even call them "non-governed" or "anti-EPA" VW's to appeal more to Republicans. "Psssst, hey dude, I've got a non-regulation high performance VW for sale."
9
You know what EPA does to someone who imports a car individually, and fails to make it USA pollution complaint ?
They seize the car. Then, crush it.
I guess if you import a few hundred thousand of them, they have some work to do.
Why should VW be treated any differently than someone who tries to sneak in a 959 or early GT-R ?
They seize the car. Then, crush it.
I guess if you import a few hundred thousand of them, they have some work to do.
Why should VW be treated any differently than someone who tries to sneak in a 959 or early GT-R ?
5
As a 2015 Passat TDI owner I love my car and want to keep it the way it is. Currently there are lot of older cars on the road that produce more pollution and no one's retrofitting them. So what I propose is that either VW pay to fix the pollution controls or give that same money to the EPA as a fine, at the choice of the car owners.
4
And the rest of us get to breathe your illegal fumes. Great idea.
Here's what I want to know. Why did it take so long for this to come out? Engineers at other companies, losing business to Volkswagen because of the impossible combination of mileage nd performance VW offered, must have known it was a fraud. Why didn't they take apart a VW and expose the software gimmick? I'm no free-market religious zealot, but this does appear to be an instance where competition should have inspired a response.
2
Did engineers at other auto companies know that VW was cheating? Only maybe. If a competitor wanted to examine a VW TDI specifically for its emissions performance, it is extremely likely they would operate it on a chassis dynamometer... and this is when "cheat mode" is functional. Then, of course, comes the question of whether other companies also employ various ways of cheating on emissions tests, and felt that silence was probably the best course of action.
1
It's all a matter of political will. Congress could amend the law to require repairs to be carried out. But Congress is owned by the industries that do the cheating and polluting so that won't happen, even as Germany issues such an order. Once again we will show that we are an exceptional nation!
2
Will those responsible go to jail, or will this merely be like all the banking "settlements?" Even if Germany and the E.U. choose not to prosecute, the U.S. certainly should, and extradition treaties ought to be invoked when necessary.
The victims are not merely the car owners but the public at large which, because of intentional illegal action, has to breathe more polluted air. Even with the Deepwater Horizon disaster, there was no real claim of intentionality. Thus it would be reasonable to demand much greater responsibility and compensation from VW than was levied against BP.
The victims are not merely the car owners but the public at large which, because of intentional illegal action, has to breathe more polluted air. Even with the Deepwater Horizon disaster, there was no real claim of intentionality. Thus it would be reasonable to demand much greater responsibility and compensation from VW than was levied against BP.
1
VW needs to offer the owners a significant cash incentive to bring the cars in for reprogramming. Perhaps 15% of the purchase price. Or the owners should file a class action lawsuit. The settlement would include a refund of 15% and addition of another 3 years to the engines and emission system warranty.
1
How about VW accepting all TDIs as trade-ins with valuation based on their August 31, 2015 KBB retail value? This would get the TDIs off the market (crushed) and keep VWoA's customers happy with new vehicles!
1
VW TDI owners bought make mainly for the mileage and are getting it. They also got misleading advertising which made VW TDI owners look environmentally responsible. They played along happily, at the same while paying a premium in tax for diesel to compensate for its polluting properties, never questioning the obvious contradictions.
The bottom line is VW owners have cars that perform fine and to their expectations, but are now socially stigmatized. And there and only there do VW owners have a valid claim for compensation. VW could offer them 10% cash-back on invoice to a maximum of $3000, or 15% towards a trade-in. To Ben and others wanting a full reversal, sorry guys, looks and smells like greed, won't happen.
The bottom line is VW owners have cars that perform fine and to their expectations, but are now socially stigmatized. And there and only there do VW owners have a valid claim for compensation. VW could offer them 10% cash-back on invoice to a maximum of $3000, or 15% towards a trade-in. To Ben and others wanting a full reversal, sorry guys, looks and smells like greed, won't happen.
2
Baloney! Why would I pay a $6000 premium over a comparably equipped identical gasoline powered vehicle if fuel mileage was my primary criteria? If you check the pump, diesel fuel runs nearly 30 cents more / gallon in the northeast than 85 octane gasoline. Do the math: it takes the entire life of the car - 10 years - to recoup those expenses. I bought the car to reduce my carbon footprint - in emissions and consumption - and to get decent performance doing so. A LOT of TDI buyers did the same. If the fix ends up increasing my consumption, then I did NOT get what I paid for: a vehicle with a lower carbon footprint. Placing the onus on the victim is pretty shallow.
1
"VW TDI owners bought make mainly for the mileage and are getting it. They also got misleading advertising which made VW TDI owners look environmentally responsible. They played along happily, at the same while paying a premium in tax for diesel to compensate for its polluting properties, never questioning the obvious contradictions."
Nonsense. There was nothing "misleading" about VW's advertising; there was instead outright fraud from the company. This idea that VW owners somehow should have known about massive, global fraud from one of the world's largest manufacturers is absurd. People who bought these vehicles trusted that the system would work and were lied to, and now the company should be forced to make this right. It's not just a matter of social stigma.
Nonsense. There was nothing "misleading" about VW's advertising; there was instead outright fraud from the company. This idea that VW owners somehow should have known about massive, global fraud from one of the world's largest manufacturers is absurd. People who bought these vehicles trusted that the system would work and were lied to, and now the company should be forced to make this right. It's not just a matter of social stigma.
3
The whole premiss of this article is ridiculous. I doubt very much that the state of California (or any other state for that matter) is going to let me register my 2014 Passat TDI without getting the emissions problem fixed - something I plan to do anyway. At the bare minimum the DVM can require proof from the dealer that I had the repair made.
1
VW ceo and upper management failed in their most basic responsibilities of due diligence. They should return 4 years worth of their multimillion dollar salaries. Failing that face criminal prosecution with stiff fines and jail time. They did not know about it simply because they chose not to look.
2
Shouldn't the owner of the defective VW be taken through a different SMOG test to insure that the car is in compliance to the modern standard? They know how VW cheated the system and if the owner decides not to do the "fix" they should be turned down. It is then up to VW to fix the problem and then the owner is free to sue VW for the monies it takes to coming into compliance. At that point the owner can settle with VW on the power problems and their inability to pass the SMOG requirements that all the rest of us as conscience citizens must endure. It would seem fit that the owness should fall directly upon VW to make the changes, IE rebate for lowered performance or gas mileage. They need to shoulder this burden, and not the guy who bought the car in good faith, rests on VW's shoulders. Get with it EPA and assign risk and expense where it is due...with VW and NOT the consumer.
2
When I worked for Argonne National Lab in vehicle maintenance, we would sometimes work with their Advanced Vehicle Testing Dept. They had ordered an 'experimental' 2006 Euro spec Golf TDI in 06, a manual for the record. 1 engineer and emissions specialist told us, "It's here to see if it can be C.A.R.B. certified, or just 49 state legal for sale in the US" He added "As it stands right now, it can't do either, and we are writing up our research papers for submission to the EPA as well as VW." I never heard the outcome, except that the car was shipped back over seas in 2009. 1 has to wonder if this played into VW's emissions scheming. In any case, VW's rep has been hurt big time, and it will be interesting to see what the government as well as VW comes up with in handling the situation. I for 1, having worked for the Il. EPA can't see how owners of these effected cars would be able to run them on public roads legally, if they have a known emission issue. BUT Il. doesn't have the sniffer tests anymore, so I guess they would get through, unless the VINs were tagged. We shall see!
3
I don't doubt that California's Air Resource board will force VW TDI owners to fix their cars or face severe consequences. I also don't doubt that the owners who want the performance will find a way to put it back to the way the factory made it, especially if it is simply a software fix.
2
I've read quite a few of these articles, but there are two points I have never seen addressed. What are the real world implications of Volkswagen's emissions cheating, i.e., what is the actual environmental impact of the "cheat" vehicles vs. the same vehicles operating in an emissions-compliant mode? To take that point further, how does the emissions profile of a cheat vehicle compare to that of a similar gasoline powered vehicle?
Secondly, if emissions compliance requires additional fuel to be burned, what is the net gain or loss of increased emissions at the tailpipe vs. at the refinery to produce the required additional fuel?
I own a 2014 VW TDI and I will be unable to determine whether to comply with a recall without the above information.
Secondly, if emissions compliance requires additional fuel to be burned, what is the net gain or loss of increased emissions at the tailpipe vs. at the refinery to produce the required additional fuel?
I own a 2014 VW TDI and I will be unable to determine whether to comply with a recall without the above information.
5
Precisely! If more fuel is expended, doesn't that defeat the intended fix? More resources expended to produce more fuel; more fuel burned negating the advantages of the emissions controls.
1
Unable to comply with the law? Sounds like you contemplate refusing to do so.
The only truly equitable way for VW to make this right to the owners is to replace the offending vehicles with a new, comparable model with a gasoline engine. To make this work, VW would have to pay off loans for a lot of cars, and a lot of owners wouldn't be happy with less gas mileage, but a new car completely paid for would be heck of an incentive to turn in the old one.
I on't know how much this would cost VW, but their main competitors, GM and Toyota, went through ethical problems and had to make settlements; so too should VW.
The real question, in my mind, is why the global auto industry is so rife with these ethical problems. From the Corvair, to the Pinto, to Ford SUVs, to unintended, unexplained acceleration on Toyotas, to GM's ignition problems, to this cheating scandal at VW, and then to the terrible Takata airbag problem that cuts across the entire industry, and I'm not even mentioning all of the recalls due to other supplier problems, the global automotive system has huge problems.
I on't know how much this would cost VW, but their main competitors, GM and Toyota, went through ethical problems and had to make settlements; so too should VW.
The real question, in my mind, is why the global auto industry is so rife with these ethical problems. From the Corvair, to the Pinto, to Ford SUVs, to unintended, unexplained acceleration on Toyotas, to GM's ignition problems, to this cheating scandal at VW, and then to the terrible Takata airbag problem that cuts across the entire industry, and I'm not even mentioning all of the recalls due to other supplier problems, the global automotive system has huge problems.
1
This is analagous to the purchase of stolen property. When located it goes to its owner.
The EPA was deceived. The current person in possession would appear to have no such rights as are suggested.
Hello car crusher.
The EPA was deceived. The current person in possession would appear to have no such rights as are suggested.
Hello car crusher.
1
This is clearly a drastic situation and calls for the immediate rounding up of any such recalcitrant owners for a spell in an EPA approved reeducation camp along with some hemp rope floggings. Surely President O should be able to issue an executive order to make this happen.....
6
VW must offer a buyback of some kind. Your average TDI consumer is a highly educated car buyer. They don't buy a TDI for its looks or its comfy ride. They buy it for the numbers and they will not be pleased of those numbers are adversely impacted. It will be expensive, but it really is the best option for the company. Buy the cars back, fix them to the extent required by the laws of some of their secondary markets, and offload the vehicles at a reasonable price to those secondary markets. This allows them to regain some integrity here in the US and gives them the opportunity to develop or enhance their market share in another country.
17
Many comments seem to overlook a few basic things that make the whole "scandal" aspect here quite inflated, if not hypocritical:
-- 482,000 VW diesels polluting in excess of what we've all been led to believe is in fact a drop in the proverbial bucket; there's something like .8 passenger cars per person in this country. That equals about 260,000,000.
-- Given that, it's a good thing VW has sold "only" 482k of the diesels in question.
-- The violation is one between VW and our EPA; TDI owners should not be penalized, punished, mailgned, or what have you. We're not the wrongdoers here. Trying to force retro-fit fixes on owners of these cars is a bit like trying to force the morbidly obese to get in better shape because in effect they jack up healthcare costs for us all.
-- Given that these EPA standards make very little sense to begin with (eg, many SUVs are exempt from emissions standards that apply to cars of the same engine, size, and weight because they're considered light trucks) why are we not on some kinda tear to do something about that?
-- Why are older cars that complied with earlier emissions standards not forced to be brought into compliance with current ones? I'm no engineer, but I am a car guy, and I'm certain that would be easier and simpler than some of what VW may have to do eventually. AND certainly there are more than 482k older vehicles that would fall into that category.
Disclaimer: Yes I own one of the offending VWs. Do I feel duped? Of course.
-- 482,000 VW diesels polluting in excess of what we've all been led to believe is in fact a drop in the proverbial bucket; there's something like .8 passenger cars per person in this country. That equals about 260,000,000.
-- Given that, it's a good thing VW has sold "only" 482k of the diesels in question.
-- The violation is one between VW and our EPA; TDI owners should not be penalized, punished, mailgned, or what have you. We're not the wrongdoers here. Trying to force retro-fit fixes on owners of these cars is a bit like trying to force the morbidly obese to get in better shape because in effect they jack up healthcare costs for us all.
-- Given that these EPA standards make very little sense to begin with (eg, many SUVs are exempt from emissions standards that apply to cars of the same engine, size, and weight because they're considered light trucks) why are we not on some kinda tear to do something about that?
-- Why are older cars that complied with earlier emissions standards not forced to be brought into compliance with current ones? I'm no engineer, but I am a car guy, and I'm certain that would be easier and simpler than some of what VW may have to do eventually. AND certainly there are more than 482k older vehicles that would fall into that category.
Disclaimer: Yes I own one of the offending VWs. Do I feel duped? Of course.
9
The article on the NY Times website immediately below this one, is about the forthcoming 'new more powerful Air Force One' - a modified Boeing 747 in which to fly the president around in.
Somehow I don't feel all that guilty driving around in my fuel efficient VW diesel Golf.
Somehow I don't feel all that guilty driving around in my fuel efficient VW diesel Golf.
5
Yes, ab, it's the president's fault.
This whole debacle is really a complaint about whether a car made from 2009-2015 has the emissions profile of a car made in 2006 or one made with a more strict emissions profile like that of 2007+ model year vehicles. Frankly I think it's not enough to worry about.
3
I hope and assume the EPA will factor in a significant amount of non-compliance with the pending recall when it sets the financial and criminal penalties VW will have to pay and endure. And perhaps the US should impose a 1-2 year ban on VW selling diesel cars in the US.
It's pretty safe to predict that most VW owners will forgo the "fix" since the result would be to lower the car's mileage and performance.
Yes, most owners will cheat and poison their neighbors. Don't give them a choice. Recall the cars and crush them.
If the vehicles are not in compliance with federal or state emission requirements/limits then they should not be licensed for use. It's not up to the owners of the vehicles and it's not up to VW. For owners who cannot drive their cars, their solution is to obtain compensation from VW, to which they are clearly entitled. Given the scale of this fraud, the government should permit some reasonable period of time for the situation to be addressed, but then should enforce the law as it was intended to be enforced.
11
If the EPA testing wasn't incompetent then this would have never been allowed in the first place. It is the EPA who is guilty here. They should pay for this mess. Owner's would not have bought them if the EPA wasn't asleep at the wheel.
1
The plan as outlined by Mr. Horn will take years to complete. Ihave an Audi a3 tdi that needs both a hardware and software fix. It is NOT reasonable to make an owner wait 1.5 - 2 years to have their car fixed. The emissions are horrible and the cars value is worthless in terms of a trade in or a sale in CA. This is not the owner's problem. It is VW's. But given the stated length of time needed to come up with a software and hardware fix, VW has effectively made this an owner problem which is criminal.
VW should be forced to buy back all their phoney cars at the cost the consumer paid for a new car off the lot so that consumers can buy another vehicle from a different manufacturer.
3
When VW intros a new car, they sell a stripper "Launch Edition". When the car is due for replacement, the last models are optioned up "Wolfsburg Editions". What VW needs to do, NOW, is to ramp up the "Replacement Edition" They will have to build a lot of them quickly, so all colors should be silver/light blue. You get the same transmission you bought first off. All cars get sport suspension, which was OE in the US market for diesels. Uprated radio, sunroof and xenon lights. You either had them or you get an upgrade. The new cars are either compliant diesels, or at the owner's option, a 1.8 TSI engine.
This leverages the fact that the cost of production for a car is much, much less than the price as sold after markups and dealer nonsense. VW can, if they do this as a one model mass production binge, provide a new car for everyone in the US over the course of a year or so. Take the old cars back, and give a Recall Edition. No class actions, no attorney's fees, and you'd actually have the buyers say good things about you standing up and doing the right thing. Regulators might even go easy on you.
Naah, I'm getting a recall letter for my 2012 TDi which will offer me 20 hp less and 5 mpg less......and will probably never buy another VW. I've only owned 5 directly and had another 3 in the family....
This leverages the fact that the cost of production for a car is much, much less than the price as sold after markups and dealer nonsense. VW can, if they do this as a one model mass production binge, provide a new car for everyone in the US over the course of a year or so. Take the old cars back, and give a Recall Edition. No class actions, no attorney's fees, and you'd actually have the buyers say good things about you standing up and doing the right thing. Regulators might even go easy on you.
Naah, I'm getting a recall letter for my 2012 TDi which will offer me 20 hp less and 5 mpg less......and will probably never buy another VW. I've only owned 5 directly and had another 3 in the family....
3
I have ownd four VWs and I just bought a new 2015 Golf Sportwagen TDI based in part on the test drive and the window sticker statement. This situation, coupled with the securiy issue VW tried to cover up and i just learned about, has me rethinking my brand loyalty. After what I paid for the car, I feel cheated by VW and am considering joining a class action against the company. Worse, the dealership blew me off when I asked about the issue, telling me that since I live in Maryland I wouldn't have to worry about an environmental inspection ever. But I'm planning on moving to California, so it will effect me.
3
Sounds like an unethical dealer. Name them.
Some odd comments about heavy duty trucks. A HD truck built in 2010 or after is equipped with SCR as well as self cleaning ceramic particulate traps, intercoolers, two turbos and other emissions controls. HD diesels are far more efficient per lb of payload, (80,000 lbs@7 mpg vs 3400 lbs@45 mpg) the car burns 3.5 times more fuel per ton-mile than the truck. Even irrespective of payload, a car producing 40 times more NOx than the legal limit but only traveling 7 times farther on a gallon of fuel than a HD truck is the bigger problem.
The heavy duty trucks will prove to provide real world emissions much more comparable to tests, simply because a lot more real world validations were performed by fleets and municipalities for years before standards went into effect. One US truck manufacturer has suffered major loss of market share because their engines couldn't be certified for EPA2010, the result of pursuing non-SCR technology. Another major US HD diesel engine company discontinued making highway truck engines as of 2010.
But there are 5 more HD engine brands in the US that do meet EPA2010 and these will have a major impact on air quality as older trucks wear out.
The heavy duty trucks will prove to provide real world emissions much more comparable to tests, simply because a lot more real world validations were performed by fleets and municipalities for years before standards went into effect. One US truck manufacturer has suffered major loss of market share because their engines couldn't be certified for EPA2010, the result of pursuing non-SCR technology. Another major US HD diesel engine company discontinued making highway truck engines as of 2010.
But there are 5 more HD engine brands in the US that do meet EPA2010 and these will have a major impact on air quality as older trucks wear out.
5
Extremely enlightening post. I always enjoy a little education when reading NYT comments. That is certainly an in depth comparison article I would love to read as opposed to all of the vague performance comparisons and conjecture.
If efficiency per ton-mile is the goal, we should be thinking trains, not trucks.
In other words, mass transit—something America has not been good at ever since GM, Firestone, and Standard Oil were convicted in 1949 of criminally conspiring to destroy the electric/rail systems of 45 of America's largest cities, and the responsible GM official was fined the princely sum of $1.
Today, similar parties stand to gain as efficient small engines are legislated out of existence.
In other words, mass transit—something America has not been good at ever since GM, Firestone, and Standard Oil were convicted in 1949 of criminally conspiring to destroy the electric/rail systems of 45 of America's largest cities, and the responsible GM official was fined the princely sum of $1.
Today, similar parties stand to gain as efficient small engines are legislated out of existence.
2
"Some states require vehicles to pass emissions tests before they can be registered each year. "But those tests are far less sophisticated than the E.P.A.’s, and the Volkswagens that are not repaired are sure to pass them", said John German"
Not so sure about that. The emissions testing equipment frequently detects even defects as minor as an overdue oil change. And I can imagine the states requiring owners to provide proof that defeat software has been removed, given that they have enough problems already complying with EPA air quality standards in west coast metro areas where most of these cars have been sold.
Not so sure about that. The emissions testing equipment frequently detects even defects as minor as an overdue oil change. And I can imagine the states requiring owners to provide proof that defeat software has been removed, given that they have enough problems already complying with EPA air quality standards in west coast metro areas where most of these cars have been sold.
1
Very true!
Cars will fail California's Smog II testing for as little as a gas cap seal, any minor exhaust leak, faulty MAF or any number of emissions related code faults contained in the on-board diagnostic system.
Though you rarely see any cars older than 1990's on the road anymore, it costs more to bring them up to standard than they're worth.
Be assured that future testing systems will include more simulated on-road analysis rather than static testing.
Cars will fail California's Smog II testing for as little as a gas cap seal, any minor exhaust leak, faulty MAF or any number of emissions related code faults contained in the on-board diagnostic system.
Though you rarely see any cars older than 1990's on the road anymore, it costs more to bring them up to standard than they're worth.
Be assured that future testing systems will include more simulated on-road analysis rather than static testing.
They can't do that without changing the law. Sorry. Sounds like you are trying to spread misinformation.
Maybe the Federal government owes these owners something. They certified the cars as meeting the standards that they put in place, and in doing that certification, naively and negligently relied on manufacturers representations without verifying them.
I think that many of the non automotively inclined commenters here think these cars are worse than they actually are. There is no way a little 2 liter engine propelling a 3400 pound car is putting out the same nitrogen oxide as a 80,000 pound 18 wheeler. No way.
Second, the cars fail to meet the standards in place for new vehicles produced when those standards were effective. There are plenty of vehicles still on the road pumping out far more pollutants because they were produced and sold when the standards were far more lax.
Reminds me of a 300 pound man commenting that his wife is 10 pounds overweight.
Just think. There is probably someone out there who invested with Madoff, bought a TDi, and donated to the Lance Armstrong Livestrong charity. Now that is someone who has reason to be disappointed.
I think that many of the non automotively inclined commenters here think these cars are worse than they actually are. There is no way a little 2 liter engine propelling a 3400 pound car is putting out the same nitrogen oxide as a 80,000 pound 18 wheeler. No way.
Second, the cars fail to meet the standards in place for new vehicles produced when those standards were effective. There are plenty of vehicles still on the road pumping out far more pollutants because they were produced and sold when the standards were far more lax.
Reminds me of a 300 pound man commenting that his wife is 10 pounds overweight.
Just think. There is probably someone out there who invested with Madoff, bought a TDi, and donated to the Lance Armstrong Livestrong charity. Now that is someone who has reason to be disappointed.
26
I'm sure the disabled emissions systems matter and I applaud owners who voluntarily have theirs corrected but let's not undermine this issue with silly hyperbole. If my neighbor's Jetta TDI emitted as much NOx as an 18 wheeler, I'd have noticed it a very long time ago.
19
How? Do you have a NOx meter? It's not the soot. Nitric oxide has no colour, odour, or taste.
1
Noticed it how, exactly? NOx isn't soot or particulate pollution ...
1
It is clear that hyperbole is all that is available at the moment.
No one is actually saying what quantity of NOx is being omitted either in the VWs or the 18 wheeler. Is it 1 gramme per litre of fuel burnt or 0.00001 grammes per litre? What is the EPA standard?
With regard to the equality of my Jetta and an 18 wheeler are we talking about emissions per litre of fuel or emissions per kilometre traveled?
It is interesting that other cars (eg Hyundai i45 ) have similar performance from similar sized motors. Has anyone had a close look at their engine management systems?
No one is actually saying what quantity of NOx is being omitted either in the VWs or the 18 wheeler. Is it 1 gramme per litre of fuel burnt or 0.00001 grammes per litre? What is the EPA standard?
With regard to the equality of my Jetta and an 18 wheeler are we talking about emissions per litre of fuel or emissions per kilometre traveled?
It is interesting that other cars (eg Hyundai i45 ) have similar performance from similar sized motors. Has anyone had a close look at their engine management systems?
2
It's interesting that for the purposes of this article, NYT interviewed a VW owner in rural Port Angeles, WA. This is a place where there is *zero* concern about atmospheric pollution from nitrogen oxides.
Mr. Downs should sleep soundly knowing that he would be making the better choice by keeping his car from getting "fixed," and burning less diesel overall in his rural area. The crystal-clear air quality isn't in danger.
Mr. Downs should sleep soundly knowing that he would be making the better choice by keeping his car from getting "fixed," and burning less diesel overall in his rural area. The crystal-clear air quality isn't in danger.
8
Excuuuuse me. Port Angeles is just down the street frrom me. The townspeople of Port Angeles are very environmentally concerned. Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about. How dare you!
Sorry but it doesn't matter where the air pollution occurs, it's the cumulative, global effect that matters.
This affects more than ten million vehicles and possibly more .
This affects more than ten million vehicles and possibly more .
1
For NOx emissions, local air quality is very relevant. Port Angeles has steady breezes off the Strait of Juan de Fuca that eliminate any smog before it has a chance to form. Meanwhile, any excess NO and NO2 will attach to atmospheric humidity and rain out in a matter of hours.
You are correct that CO2 emissions operate on a global carbon budget. How ironic then, that the fix you advocate would increase Mr. Downs' carbon emissions by robbing his engine of efficiency.
People are reacting without a full scientific understanding of the issues involved, and I find that distressing.
You are correct that CO2 emissions operate on a global carbon budget. How ironic then, that the fix you advocate would increase Mr. Downs' carbon emissions by robbing his engine of efficiency.
People are reacting without a full scientific understanding of the issues involved, and I find that distressing.
3
John German is quoted as saying that VW Jettas and Golfs have emissions similar to a typical modern 18-wheeler. I'll believe that when I see VW's with 100-gallon fuel tanks strapped to their sides.
New York Times, a little fact-checking please.
New York Times, a little fact-checking please.
31
Total disconnect. Do you believe evolution is correct, how about climate change?
fixing the cheating VWs is not up to Mr. whatever his name is from Washington state, this defeat device is damaging the environment and is killing people and animals, therefore it should be a federally enforced repair, punishable with non renewal of license if not taken care of. people should and will not inhale Nr. Washington state's garbage because he will not like the results from his garbage VW car
9
No people or animals were harmed in the making thereof. Could you lose the hysteria, please? Sounds to me like people are very upset at the prospect of people getting away with something, more power to them.
1
It seems to me that the inspection and registration was contingent upon the car passing EPA standards. And with that being discovered to be fraudulent, then the registration of every one of these cars should be voided - or at minimum ineligible to be renewed - unless the cars have the required repairs. This being an unsavory proposition for a car owner, then they must be able to return the vehicle for a full refund.
16
When Shanghai air today looks like Los Angeles did in the sixties I'm not too concerned my diesel golf or every diesel needing to be modified is going to kill the planet.
1
EXACTLY! Why isn't this obvious response being discussed?
FindOut: one of the two VWs tested did have VW's urea injection system. It failed badly, as did the other non-urea system. I don't expect that any VW solution will maintain the economy and drivability. Either or both will suffer, I expect. How much - we don't yet know.
I think it's significant that VW announced the recall for Europe but has not done so for the U.S. My guess is that's because the solution is hard and expensive.
If I were VW, I'd replace existing cars with new ones. Yes - that would be expensive but so is the alternative. The upside is that it would hugely rebuilt VW's goodwill and trust. Some would call it an "Apple move". I'd agree.
It would be a big expense but a brilliant investment. I wonder if VW management is smart enough to notice.
I think it's significant that VW announced the recall for Europe but has not done so for the U.S. My guess is that's because the solution is hard and expensive.
If I were VW, I'd replace existing cars with new ones. Yes - that would be expensive but so is the alternative. The upside is that it would hugely rebuilt VW's goodwill and trust. Some would call it an "Apple move". I'd agree.
It would be a big expense but a brilliant investment. I wonder if VW management is smart enough to notice.
7
How much would it cost? If you don't know that, you can't estimate.
How many VW owners are really going to care enough about this to take the time and trouble to have a repair made? Not many.
4
As a gas engined VW owner who does all scheduled maintenance at the dealership I have had more than a little contact with TDI owners. In my experience they are a conscientious group that were attracted to the engine for it's economy and advertised clean emissions.
I opted for the gas engine as the pricing on the TDI engine was such that it negated the financial advantage of the higher mileage. TDI owners were ripped off with cars marketed as clean diesels and paid a premium to get them.
VW should at minimum offer them a brand new version of their car with a gasoline or hybrid engine.
I opted for the gas engine as the pricing on the TDI engine was such that it negated the financial advantage of the higher mileage. TDI owners were ripped off with cars marketed as clean diesels and paid a premium to get them.
VW should at minimum offer them a brand new version of their car with a gasoline or hybrid engine.
1
What about all the obscenely huge SUVs and pick-ups in the U.S. sucking down gas and crowding our roads? Easy for people to trash VW, but they should look in their own driveways first.
46
Larry, true enough about the SUVs and trucks, but the reason VW is under the microscope is that they misrepresented the performance of their vehicles in order to sell them. As a matter of fact, they did more than just misrepresent. They purposely built vehicles that performed in a fraudulent matter.
Agreed, these cars are still using less fuel than many others.
But the amount of emissions can't be overlooked.
But the amount of emissions can't be overlooked.
If the fix involves the SCR catalyst (requires urea tank), then there will be no loss of mileage. But that will be an expensive fix.
To owners of VW: Don't think of your car as worthless. They are producing more NOx but much less CO2 and particulates than other cars. NOx is responsible for smog, and the only pollutant in question here. NOx limits in the US are the strictest in the world, without really good reasons (reducing NOx did reduce LA smog though ). Reducing NOx destroys fuel efficiency and causes NOx and CO2 to go up.
To owners of VW: Don't think of your car as worthless. They are producing more NOx but much less CO2 and particulates than other cars. NOx is responsible for smog, and the only pollutant in question here. NOx limits in the US are the strictest in the world, without really good reasons (reducing NOx did reduce LA smog though ). Reducing NOx destroys fuel efficiency and causes NOx and CO2 to go up.
12
This is deceit, theft, and should be prosecuted accordingly. Furthermore, I am outraged that this is seen as a "performance" issue. Breathing is not optional for life, and the difference for anyone suffering from asthma can be life or death, not a few miles per gallon or more torque. The owners need to be compeled to take their cars in, and VW and Audi needs to restore their credibility by compensating the owners in full. For the record, I am on my third Audi (and my husband has had two) and I am APPALLED at VW's criminal behavior. Whether these will be our last will depend on the Audi/VW management's response.
14
I am also an asthmatic who drives a VW TDI and am appalled at VW's behaviour and hope a few executives do jail time. However, I doubt my asthma has gotten any worse over the last six year and expect claims of actual harm done are much exaggerated. . Nonetheless, rules need to be enforced, not so much because of harm done by the rule breakers---that actually might be relatively small in the big picture---but because of the harm that might be done if everyone broke the rules.
This is deceit on a global scale and as owners we need to aggressively pursue VW for the full cost of the cars in damages... I'm a lifelong VW owner. Dad drove a 1965 VW Bus. I have a 1974 VW Bus and I paid a premium for the diesel engine in my 2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI. Selected this car for it's fuel efficiency and low emissions. Evidently, I'm actually polluting as much as an 18-wheeler.
31
According to the article, on nitrogen oxide emissions, your car is apparently equivalent to an 18 wheeler. On the other greenhouse gas emission caused by combustion - CO2 - I can't see how you could be anything close to an 18 wheelers emissions, when they get about 6 miles per gallon, and your car gets about 40.
1
According to recent research by IHS ("Average Age of Light Vehicles in the U.S. Rises Slightly in 2015 to 11.5 years"), there were more than 258 million light vehicles registered in the United States during 2014. Given the banner year auto makers have been having (including VW until the news of this scandal broke), it's likely we'll exceed that number in 2015. In any event, using the 2014 figure for registered light vehicles as a baseline, 500,000 TDIs account for 0.19%. However, these cars have emitted "up to 40 times what is allowed under the Clean Air Act" and collectively polluted our air with excess NOx, CO2, PM, and other hydrocarbons comparable to the emissions of millions, perhaps even tens of millions of light duty vehicles! Consider then the global impact of 11 million of these vehicles on human and environmental health....
I for one, share Mr. Down's concern for the serious environmental damage that has yet to be fully assessed. I plan to get my 2011 TDI serviced as soon as an appropriate emissions fix has been approved. The potential loss of performance is also a concern. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what VW and federal/state regulators (e.g. the EPA) can devise. Meanwhile, I am utterly incensed by having paid a premium to own a TDI "Clean Diesel" Sportwagen, and whether I choose to keep my car or not, I will seek financial restitution from VW.
I for one, share Mr. Down's concern for the serious environmental damage that has yet to be fully assessed. I plan to get my 2011 TDI serviced as soon as an appropriate emissions fix has been approved. The potential loss of performance is also a concern. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what VW and federal/state regulators (e.g. the EPA) can devise. Meanwhile, I am utterly incensed by having paid a premium to own a TDI "Clean Diesel" Sportwagen, and whether I choose to keep my car or not, I will seek financial restitution from VW.
8
I too own a VW TDI. Just keep in mind that your financial restitution will include giving half to the lawyers...half.
6
While there are at least five classes of regulated emissions (unburned hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, oxides of nitrogen a.k.a. NOx, and particulate matter) the SOLE problem here is NOx. VW TDIs continue to emit compliant levels of HC's, CO, and PM, and they emit substantially LESS CO2 than gasoline-powered cars.
2
Thanks for clarifying that, Steve!
If EPA or any other Governmental mechanism threatens (with teeth) some enforcement action to the entire product line of the parent company, something might actually get done.
That should include all the VW models, Porche, Audi and Bentley. Its all the same management, the same board, same criminals rotating through and the same money pulsing through the company. They should treat the whole thing as a criminal enterprise until a proper remedy is offered.
This is no less a crime than treating the whole world as a gas chamber and thumbing their nose to boot.
14
Do you have it a bit smaller? What's about the US fighter jets flying all over the world? What do you think how their effect is on the environment? Why don't we discuss the missing of public transportation and that so many people use giant pickup trucks for their daily commuting? Or that the US uses most fossil fuels per capita? For me this discussion about VW is hypocritical. There are much bigger problems caused by the people in this country.
38
Is there no more decency? This world is in a sorry state.
5
Why not just require VW to buy all the cheating cars back at the original sticker price?
61
No - just replace them with new cars (better for owners, cheaper for VW, both WIN !!)
5
RonnieC and SarahB...Some of these cars are getting a bit long in the tooth, and buying them back at original sticker wouldn't be fair, or for some, even doable, as that they would have to get another car to replace the old one. The only way to make this work is to require VW to provide owners of the cars in question with a comparably-equipped new vehicle.
1
Because that would be consumer friendly, not corporate friendly.
1
There's no such thing as Clean Diesel. VW fooled their demographic until they were caught, and now they should make it as easy as possible for owners to repair their cars or purchase them back.
15
The BMW X5 that was tested by ICCT was clean. The two VWs were not.
I suggest that VW replace the old cars with new, rather than repurchase.
I suggest that VW replace the old cars with new, rather than repurchase.
2
Incorrect. There are plenty of diesel automobiles on the road right now in the USA (from BMW, Mercedes, and GM) that meet the same standards as the gasoline-powered cars. On top of that, VW TDI's can be modified to perform just like their counterparts.
1
i've got two affected cars, an Audi A3 and a Jetta tdi. The only thing that will make me completely happy is the new engine thats been advertised.
8
I own a 2003 Jetta TDI (100 HP), but I am assuming that one is clean as a whistle, due to its manufacturing date being pre defeat programming.
The 2015 Golf TDI (160 HP) I also own has the Eurea system, cant imagine it will take too much tweaking to bring it in to compliance.
Everything in between these model years has no Eurea system. They may require major hardware additions.
The 2015 Golf TDI (160 HP) I also own has the Eurea system, cant imagine it will take too much tweaking to bring it in to compliance.
Everything in between these model years has no Eurea system. They may require major hardware additions.
1
Good for you Bryan, and what was your point?
1
Sorry Bryan but in fact these cars that aren't "compliant" probably make similar emissions as your car. Part of the reason they cheated is because they couldn't improve the emissions profile as they increased the standards in 2007+ Model year vehicles.
1
If I were one of those VM diesel owners, I'd feel like I won the lottery with a better performing car, and there's no way I'd voluntarily take the downgrade.
12
If you own a manual transmission TDI, you definitely do not want a horsepower reduction. Diesels are compression fired engines and you need to keep the RPMs up when you pull out or they are prone to stalling much more than a gas engine is.
Who will settle the lawsuits when thousands of accidents begin to occur due to vehicles suddenly stalling as drivers pull out in front of an oncoming vehicle.
The law of unintended consequences is always at work when well meaning regulators go fiddling around.
Who will settle the lawsuits when thousands of accidents begin to occur due to vehicles suddenly stalling as drivers pull out in front of an oncoming vehicle.
The law of unintended consequences is always at work when well meaning regulators go fiddling around.
7
Seriously? That's VW's mess and they have to either fix it or buy back the cars. And if you can drive a manual, you can manage the torque curve. If you can't do that, you should switch to automatic.
8
I own a manual TDI and manage the torque curve quite well. But, the point of the previous poster is on point. The TDI is already quite challenging to drive, I can't imagine what it would be like if there is a horsepower reduction. Drive one and you will know exactly what the concern that he is mentioned.
5
Bryan, the low RPM stalling you observe is due to the controlled brake release. You can't simply let the clutch in, at idle; it will stall. The reason? The brake won't release until the fuel flow sensor detects power being added. Took me a while to figure that out in my 2014 TDI.
2
Some appropriate and friendly motivation needs to be offered to the people who own these cars. But the environment should not be what is compromised, because Volkswagen not only has a responsibility to its customers, but to everyone that breathes.
12
The newspapers have actually added fuel to this fire, and this article is a perfect example. The problem is, or appears to be, that VW needed to add a urea based aftertreatment system, but did not do so on all of these cars. For those cars, it's not a matter of changing a few software parameters. VW is going to have install an NOx adsorber "brick", and a urea regeneration system. The urea tank will probably occupy space in the trunk, possibly replacing the spare tire. BUT, and this is important, fuel economy and performance are unlikely to be significantly impacted by the fix. The fact that owners are spinning 10%, or even 25% potential fuel economy hits is a direct result of VW continuing to obfuscate, and reporters still filling air without research.
7
Having just visited our dealer and spoken to the owner, we and they know nothing. It's all rumor and speculation right now, so we are sitting tight. I don't want to be an environmental miscreant, but I want the performance and MPG that caused us to choose the car. That, or compensation for the additional fuel costs.
5
The VW urea system is proven to not work. One of the two VWs tested had it, in it failed - badly. The "Bluetec" system developed by Mercedes and Bosch does work, as is evidenced by the fact the BMW X5 (uses that system) passed the on-road test comfortably.
VW's existing urea system has been proven to not work. Have they changed anything??
VW's existing urea system has been proven to not work. Have they changed anything??
3
It sucks to be a VW buyer. They have always done what they needed to do to get what they wanted. Don't forget there were 12,000 slave laborers in Wolfsburg.
2
There's no reason to bring WWII war profiteering into this discussion. That was 75 years ago and has no bearing whatsoever on VW's present malfeasance.
Do you refuse to drive a Mitsubishi? Do you open up every computer you buy to ensure that there's not a Hitachi hard drive inside? Please.
Do you refuse to drive a Mitsubishi? Do you open up every computer you buy to ensure that there's not a Hitachi hard drive inside? Please.
3
The "cars’ fuel economy would not be lower than the rating on the window sticker." This is actually a slightly devious statement. The window sticker mpg is actually determined based on a fuel consumption calculation that is based on a measurement of emissions curing dyno testing. As such, the wind sticker mpg actually reflect testing with the emissions systems on. Edmunds did a piece on this a few weeks ago and it seems to explain the reason many VW TDI wonder saw real world fuel economy that was HIGHER than the window sticker mpg. With the emissions systems operational, VW owners may not see mpg below the sticker number but it will be lower than what they saw before.
1
Owners have derived enormous benefits from VW cheating and should be required to fix their car. I own a Camry hybrid and like everybody else's car the mpg on the sticker is a total fiction (37 compared to 43 on the sticker). If VW meets the sticker mpg I suggest stop complaining. You've had a good ride and it's time to stop polluting.
3
Enormous benefits? I now own a car that pollutes FAR more than I was led to believe, has lost significant value that I expected to retain when I purchased and will be required to make repairs that have nothing to do with my care while I have owned the vehicle. Yes, enormous.
1
If you can't get 43mpg out of your camry, that's your fault for driving so aggressively. Now if you're doing primary fast highway driving (80mph+) or lots of cold starts, then that's beyond the scope of the fuel economy testing so it's irrelevant. Camry hybrids are good vehicles and are easily capable of higher than 50mpg let alone 40.
1
Force the owners to "comply with code" before any transfer of title, just as is down with homes that are "out of compliance." Tough luck for the owners, who will have to sue VW, who should be made to pay, for the costs.
11
Sure, the owners will simply add an eighth and ninth day to their weeks to be able to have the time to handle the litigation. Perhaps VW will be able to apply their "superior engineering" to figure that out too.
And oftimes, the real winners in litigation like this are... the lawyers.
And oftimes, the real winners in litigation like this are... the lawyers.
It might help to add a little perspective here. There are about 250,000,000 cars registered in the U.S. That makes these 500,000 offending VW's about .2% of the universe. The pollution impact should be relatively small.
But for whatever reason, VW's deception was deliberate. VW should be be made to clean up this mess. If it costs them a lot of $$$ that is just to bad.
If i were an owner of one of these vehicles i would just sit tight--sooner or later you will have a "'sweet deal' coming your way---in the mean time enjoy your ride--VW will be picking up the tab.
But for whatever reason, VW's deception was deliberate. VW should be be made to clean up this mess. If it costs them a lot of $$$ that is just to bad.
If i were an owner of one of these vehicles i would just sit tight--sooner or later you will have a "'sweet deal' coming your way---in the mean time enjoy your ride--VW will be picking up the tab.
14
Well, the problem is they're spewing 40 times more of certain pollutants than they should be, so those half million cars are contributing a significant fraction of the total -- and will be for years to come if they're not repaired. But I agree that VW should pick up the tab.
These vehicles were not legal to be sold in the first place. Why should owners be allowed to register them without proof that repairs were made?
These vehicles are a danger to public health and are a very real threat to people with certain conditions, such as asthma.
And if a state allows an illegal vehicle to be registered, then isn't the state violating its own laws, and is the owner not guilty of fraud? And, maybe, that owner will have to pay a financial penalty for driving an illegal vehicle (since the cars do not meet federal requirements for import, registration, or sale) on public roads.
These vehicles are a danger to public health and are a very real threat to people with certain conditions, such as asthma.
And if a state allows an illegal vehicle to be registered, then isn't the state violating its own laws, and is the owner not guilty of fraud? And, maybe, that owner will have to pay a financial penalty for driving an illegal vehicle (since the cars do not meet federal requirements for import, registration, or sale) on public roads.
26
If you only new the real facts. Most states allow an exemption for diesel vehicles used in commercial trucking and heavy duty pickups, all too numerous to effectively monitor. Millions of diesel trucks in America have had their EPA regulated emissions systems altered, to increase horsepower and mileage. There is actually a cottage industry for specialty garages that exists to remove pollution control systems and fake the system to look like it is still there.. That is the real pollution problem which dwarfs the VW problem which no one is talking about.
29
Bryan- If people break the law by altering the cars after the sale, does it make it acceptable behavior? Does it mean that we have to change the rules to whitewash these people? We cannot stop them from breaking the law, but we can make it costly enough to make it unattractive.
2
It is the height of hyperbole to claim that the VW diesel fleet on the road is a danger to public health, and that's true whether you say it or the EPA says it. There simply aren't enough VW diesels on the road to materially affect the level of nitrogen oxides in the air, even in arid, inverted regions.
8
Seriously does anyone think that VW is alone in cheating on specs regarding performance. Today's world cheating is encouraged you just shouldnt get caught...
11
Perhaps VW could provide compensatory pollution abatement-- buy and scrap enough old but running diesel trucks (there are plenty of early 2000/1990 and even 1980 heavy, medium and light out there) to derived a pollution savings given the life expectancy of old vehicles vs. the VW excess pollution vehicle lifespans. People might be shocked if VW only had to buy a few thousand vehicles... old pollution design diesels regularly leave clouds of black soot in their wake on heavy acceleration, with blocks that are usually 3-5x the size of a VW EA 198; and diesels can run for 400K to 800K miles unlike most gas blocks. So there are lots of old diesels out there available for compensatory pollution purchase.
14
I appreciate what you are trying to say here, but you are missing a large part of the picture. Although these older diesel engines are polluters, you are ignoring the massive amounts of pollution that would be created to replace said vehicles. It is well documented that far less pollution is created when vehicles are kept in service for longer periods of time. The environmental impact degrades over time by maximizing the useful life of equipment and avoiding production pollution which is enormous (additional mining, refining of metals, creation of toxic plastics, etc.) The reduction in pollution created in all of the complex manufacturing processes greatly offset the pollution created by these vehicles the longer they are in service. Too bad we have all grown up in a disposable society with they wrongheaded notion that it's better to throw old things away and buy something new thinking we are creating efficiency.
2
MH's suggestion is a creative idea, a variation on the carbon-trading schemes. It would relieve VW owners from the sins of the manufacturer of their cars and still bring about something reasonably similar to the result had VW not cheated. VW might also be required to offer sweet deals on purchase of new commercial diesels by their commercial vehicle builders.
1
All the more reason to fine VW the maximum amount of $18,000 per car.
28
"VW could be subject to a maximum civil penalty of $37,500 for each of 482,000 cars that are affected, an EPA official told Business Insider"
http://www.businessinsider.com/vw-told-to-recall-500000-cars-after-us-go...
http://www.businessinsider.com/vw-told-to-recall-500000-cars-after-us-go...
Volkswagon should give every owner of the cars two options. You can live with your car and we'll do the repairs. You'll live with the new performance. Or they can buy the car back for the price paid when delivered. VW might argue that the car has depreciated, and that the owner got practical use, but the owner could argue that she/he loves the planet and has been contributing to polluting it rather than helping reduce pollution. It's was a deception. It needs to cost VW money, so other car makers get the point.
That's why it was employed.
That's why it was employed.
90
Not to mention that the owner 'paid' by making the payments on time while waiting for VW to decide. I 'rented' my car so to speak.
5
.
A BIG factor with the VW situation is that it was not caused by the unexpected malfunction of some component ... it was a deliberately developed and implemented attempt to deceive both customers and governments!
This brings to the fore: FRAUD ... as in triple damages FRAUD.
So even the idea of "buy back my car" is way too little!!
A BIG factor with the VW situation is that it was not caused by the unexpected malfunction of some component ... it was a deliberately developed and implemented attempt to deceive both customers and governments!
This brings to the fore: FRAUD ... as in triple damages FRAUD.
So even the idea of "buy back my car" is way too little!!
4
Don't mess with it. Just give owners a new car. End of story.
Win for owner, and win for VW.
Win for owner, and win for VW.
1
If car owners truly have a crucial role in making their spewing diesels comply to regulation, we have a huge problem. It's one thing to crow about your new age VW diesel which through superior German engineering, aka cheating, managed to offer both compliance with rigorous emission standards along and great performance. It's quite another to be asked to pony up, eat crow, and do what even the ever so proper Germans refused to do. My guess, unless they are legally mandated and forced into compliance, they won't. Very few people are willing to sacrifice very much for the sake of being green, especially not with regard to their cars.
So far I haven't heard anything from the VW brass that even hints at the kind of reparation that VW owners are entitled to. The new CEO talked about getting through the crisis, back to selling cars again, and returning Volkswagon to its former glory. Not one word about compensation to the consumers of the fraudmobile they so blatantly flogged to eager greenies. Apologies are cheap. Restorative justice, not so much.
So far I haven't heard anything from the VW brass that even hints at the kind of reparation that VW owners are entitled to. The new CEO talked about getting through the crisis, back to selling cars again, and returning Volkswagon to its former glory. Not one word about compensation to the consumers of the fraudmobile they so blatantly flogged to eager greenies. Apologies are cheap. Restorative justice, not so much.
51
Here here!
1
Wow, so the question is just how self-sacrificing are VW owners willing to be...
8
We bought the car in good faith, in large part based on the MPG. If the fuel economy had been substantially lower, there were other good choices of vehicle. If the recall fix lowers our MPG more than 10%, we will join one of the class action lawsuits in order to seek compensation for the higher operating costs we will incur.
11
The answer is simple -- Volkswagen must reverse the purchase and take my car back.
I purchased this TDI specifically because they advertised it as having terrific highway mileage, a powerful "VW" driving experience, and low emissions and an environmentally-friendly profile. I test drove it. I researched it heavily.
They have already proven themselves to be untrustworthy and they have already degraded the resale of my car by thousands of dollars.
The only fair remedy is for them to reverse the transaction.
I purchased this TDI specifically because they advertised it as having terrific highway mileage, a powerful "VW" driving experience, and low emissions and an environmentally-friendly profile. I test drove it. I researched it heavily.
They have already proven themselves to be untrustworthy and they have already degraded the resale of my car by thousands of dollars.
The only fair remedy is for them to reverse the transaction.
131
Thank you. I am in the same situation exactly and agree completely. My Passat TDI 2013 was the perfect car and I paid the premium to buy it new. I want VW to buy my car back.
78
When I purchased my 2012 Jetta, the salesperson told me to expect much better mileage than the sticker. He was right but he therefore also influenced my decision for purchase beyond what the sticker did. How will VW defend that?
8
"No good deed goes unpunished"
The world needs to get serious about climate change. Oxides of nitrogen include laughing gas and persist for a short time while CO2 is forever. The NOX limits in California should be the subject of investigation
The world needs to get serious about climate change. Oxides of nitrogen include laughing gas and persist for a short time while CO2 is forever. The NOX limits in California should be the subject of investigation
8
VW should provide an updated database of each car that has been fixed, accessible by state DOTs. When it's time for a VW to go through emissions testing, the VIN should be checked against that database.
No inclusion? Automatic fail unless the owner can produce documentation of the fix. I am sympathetic to people who bought these cars with the very reasonable belief that they would get decent power, high mpg and still meet emissions standards.
But let's be honest: some of these VW owners are obviously not upset about the initial deception as much as they are the potential performance hit to their cars. The moment they decide not to get their cars fixed, they're knowingly complicit in the lie. I have zero sympathy for that.
No inclusion? Automatic fail unless the owner can produce documentation of the fix. I am sympathetic to people who bought these cars with the very reasonable belief that they would get decent power, high mpg and still meet emissions standards.
But let's be honest: some of these VW owners are obviously not upset about the initial deception as much as they are the potential performance hit to their cars. The moment they decide not to get their cars fixed, they're knowingly complicit in the lie. I have zero sympathy for that.
23
Booo. That's a pretty judgemental comment. Sure performance loss matters. However all of us who purchased 'clean diesel' were deceived.
VW must buy these cars back.
VW must buy these cars back.
29
As an owner, I disagree. If we are forced to accept a fix which substantially increases our fuel costs, I want to be compensated. We bought an approved vehicle in good faith, and should not be penalized for VW's deception. If we refuse the fix, we're not complicit in anything, especially a lie ... We're protecting ourselves from financial loss.
8
Let's be honest, Joe from Boulder: if it was YOU being asked to take a $10,000 hit for someone else's crime, would YOU be rushing to get in line? Thought not.
9
Will those responsible go to jail, or will this merely be like all the banking "settlements?" Even if Germany and the E.U. choose not to prosecute, the U.S. certainly should, and extradition treaties ought to be invoked when necessary.
The victims are not merely the car owners but the public at large which, because of intentional illegal action, has to breathe more toxic fumes. Even with the Deepwater Horizon disaster, there was no real claim of intentionality. Thus it would be reasonable to demand much greater responsibility and compensation from VW than was levied against BP.
The victims are not merely the car owners but the public at large which, because of intentional illegal action, has to breathe more toxic fumes. Even with the Deepwater Horizon disaster, there was no real claim of intentionality. Thus it would be reasonable to demand much greater responsibility and compensation from VW than was levied against BP.
16
I don't think that this VW recall for emissions is like other recalls. If the car does not pass emissions testing then, in Maryland at least, a driver will have to either get the dealer to fix the car so it passes or spend at least $450 for emissions repairs to qualify for a waiver and obtain registration. Since VW owners will be owed free repair getting a waiver does not seem like a real option. So in MD dealers of VW diesels will be called upon to fix the vehicles so they can pass VEIP so they are legal to drive. I would recommend against simply driving a vehicle without current registration.
5
Good, we all know the car passes emissions tests. So it won't be a problem.
2
Well, actually no. They don't pass, except by use of fraudulent software, so those results now known to be fraudulent are no longer acceptable. So the vehicles do not pass. A person who relies on the result knowing it to be fraudulent would then himself be committing a federal crime, that for a regular citizen, might carry a jail term. I would not want to rely on the defense "they sold it to me like that."
7
The emissions testing is between the manufacturer and the EPA; leave the owner's out of it. If they had their preference, no wasted time and money would be spent on frivolous "testing" to begin with.
In Germany all owners are required by law to have their vehicles modified to comply with national emissions standards, while here in the US, it appears that national standards really don't mean a lot. Just another example of how Americans do not take environmental concerns seriously.
That said, US owners of TDIs, whether VW, Audi or Porsche, living in states with annual or semiannual emissions inspections will only be able to delay applying the fix. So advice to not take the car in to the dealer is ingenuous.
That said, US owners of TDIs, whether VW, Audi or Porsche, living in states with annual or semiannual emissions inspections will only be able to delay applying the fix. So advice to not take the car in to the dealer is ingenuous.
3
Oh, please.
I guess Germany also had laws about not cheating on emissions controls, and we see how very effective that was.
Germany has had weak car emissions rules for years, and has only recently gotten serious about emissions requirements.
I guess Germany also had laws about not cheating on emissions controls, and we see how very effective that was.
Germany has had weak car emissions rules for years, and has only recently gotten serious about emissions requirements.
7
I own a VW TDI, and it's a great car, and I'm concerned about the future of my (very recent) purchase, but don't feel I have an adequate amount of comparative data with other diesel vehicles for a true sense of the impact of continuing to drive my car.
Only last year (2014), were heavy-duty and tractor trailer diesels required to meet ANY emissions, and they are far less stringent that those for passenger cars. This does not include older models, only recently manufactured models. Those emissions numbers, I'm fairly certain, are far greater than the 500,000 cars in the USA.
Also, what's the environmental impact of a higher mpg provide versus higher emissions of NOx from the VW diesel engines? Is there a point where the NOx is far worse than all the CO2 from the gasoline equivalent? With a high mileage (diesel) vehicle, how much of my carbon footprint is being reduced by less oil being pumped, shipped, stored, and delivered against the increase in pollution?
These are the numbers I'd like to see before making the decision on the recall fix. I live in a state with no emissions testing, and I'm guessing it will take a great incentive to bring owners in if they're are going to loose the bargain they've paid for and enjoyed.
Only last year (2014), were heavy-duty and tractor trailer diesels required to meet ANY emissions, and they are far less stringent that those for passenger cars. This does not include older models, only recently manufactured models. Those emissions numbers, I'm fairly certain, are far greater than the 500,000 cars in the USA.
Also, what's the environmental impact of a higher mpg provide versus higher emissions of NOx from the VW diesel engines? Is there a point where the NOx is far worse than all the CO2 from the gasoline equivalent? With a high mileage (diesel) vehicle, how much of my carbon footprint is being reduced by less oil being pumped, shipped, stored, and delivered against the increase in pollution?
These are the numbers I'd like to see before making the decision on the recall fix. I live in a state with no emissions testing, and I'm guessing it will take a great incentive to bring owners in if they're are going to loose the bargain they've paid for and enjoyed.
38
The emission standards are far too simplified to be used to compare environmental impact of diesel engines versus gas or electric. There are many more factors that should be considered such as the longer service life of a diesel engine, i.e. less impact on resources and energy for less reliable engines. Batteries made from lithium-ion dumped into landfills from electrical vehicles should be a concern as an environmental impact. Don't get me wrong, I am all for reducing CO2 and NOx emissions. The main emphasis is that emission standards are too simplified, as it only captures air quality, and does not capture the whole environmental impact.
5
Gasoline and diesel can't be compared gallon to gallon. They are different substances. For each unit of energy, gasoline and diesel produce about the same amount of carbon pollution. With diesel, you can fit more energy and carbon in the same size tank. Conceptually, gasoline is like diluted diesel--the same amount of energy and carbon take up more space.
1
This was obvious from the first report. Any settlement with VW must require the company to certify - VIN by VIN - that an environmentally sound fix (reprogramming, engine replacement, whatever) acceptable to the owner of the vehicle has been done or that the vehicle has been removed from service.
The financial penalty for each vehicle not repaired or removed by a date certain must be large enough to give VW the incentive to fix this problem.
The financial penalty for each vehicle not repaired or removed by a date certain must be large enough to give VW the incentive to fix this problem.
6
Adjust the state inspection equipment to detect compliance.
3
Most states have no inspection requirement. Outside the northeast and maybe the far west, forget it.
1
The "performance" issue for not getting a VW fixed is a red herring.
No VW (or any brand) owner drives their car full-out, flooring the gas at all times for max acceleration etc., they only use some of the available power. If the fix reduces so called "performance," the solution for the owner is to simply use a tad more fuel pedal, and the car will act exactly as before. If the argument is that there isn't the same acceleration for as little pedal pressure; sorry that's just a lost psychological impression, not a real loss.
Mileage is another story, and original owners should get a cash rebate equal to the extra cost of the fuel. Resale value may be affected, this should be compensated too.
At any rate the cars should be mandated to be fixed no exceptions, because the damage is a public harm that an owner should not be optionally allowed to overlook. If the fix is an owner option, then after-market sellers for other brands should be able to legally sell software changes that fool emissions tests and upgrade the performance for those cars.
No VW (or any brand) owner drives their car full-out, flooring the gas at all times for max acceleration etc., they only use some of the available power. If the fix reduces so called "performance," the solution for the owner is to simply use a tad more fuel pedal, and the car will act exactly as before. If the argument is that there isn't the same acceleration for as little pedal pressure; sorry that's just a lost psychological impression, not a real loss.
Mileage is another story, and original owners should get a cash rebate equal to the extra cost of the fuel. Resale value may be affected, this should be compensated too.
At any rate the cars should be mandated to be fixed no exceptions, because the damage is a public harm that an owner should not be optionally allowed to overlook. If the fix is an owner option, then after-market sellers for other brands should be able to legally sell software changes that fool emissions tests and upgrade the performance for those cars.
9
Drivers do not drive maximum performance level normally, but they, or at least I, call on maximum performance, using all available throttle and maximizing engine rpm, occasionally. Examples are merging smoothly and safely onto a crowded. high speed roadway, quickly passing slower moving traffic, legally, on a two-lane road offering limited passing opportunities, etc. I would be very unhappy if I owned a VW and found that post-purchase modifications to reduce emissions had degraded my performance under these conditions. I would not risk this possible result by having modifications done unless forced to.
1
Mr. CK,
You must not know many TDI drivers. Those lads like to stomp the floor like a rowdy bunch of burbon drinking Cowboys in a line dance!
You must not know many TDI drivers. Those lads like to stomp the floor like a rowdy bunch of burbon drinking Cowboys in a line dance!
1
I have an underpowered Civic, pass everything on the road ordinarily and legally, and always merge smoothly and safely etc., and NEVER put the fuel pedal to the floor or hit the redline although I do come near it, rarely. You may, but it's an optional quirk of your style, not a necessity. And it's probably less than 1% of your driving, and a tiny fraction of that for most. Of course there are exceptions to any normal activity.
1
Oh, how the greenies will struggle with this! Are you really serious about saving the planet? Get your car "fixed" right away, or know in your heart that you're a hypocrite.
If the law doesn't force it, I'd never even consider it.
If the law doesn't force it, I'd never even consider it.
4
i remember when this first came out, all the vw owners were outraged...but now it appears that the owners don't have to do anything but keep driving thier cars since the EPA and government have no powers to do anything about it...maybe VW really knew that in the end americans wouldn't give a care after all
30
This is a peculiar comment. What makes you think we wish to "keep driving" these cars? They are environmentally unfriendly. They have lost value. They have brought uncertainty to what I thought was a wise purchase.
And yet my family needs a car -- I can't just let it sit in the driveway while VW takes months to decide my fate. I can't afford to buy a Toyota and just wait to see what happens to this car. Your comment sounds callous to my ear.
And yet my family needs a car -- I can't just let it sit in the driveway while VW takes months to decide my fate. I can't afford to buy a Toyota and just wait to see what happens to this car. Your comment sounds callous to my ear.
7
The highly-polluting VW cars should be repaired or forced off the road, one way or another. They endanger our health. If current laws will not force owners to fix or scrap the cars, then we need new laws.
2
There are enough offending VWs on the road to endanger your health, compared to all the other myriad sources of pollutants? Not to let VW off the hook at all, but you may wish to consider whether you are unduly influenced by current press accounts.
6
You are right, I need to be forced. Wrong! I am not going to be forced into anything, I am going to make sure that those that have perpetrated this hoax are the ones that are burdened by the repairs. You may call me selfish, but I did nothing more than buy a car that I was led to believe was environmentally friendly with good gas mileage.
2
Get all of the pre-1973 cars, cars from the 70s 80s and 90s cars, which pollute more than TDIs off the road, Large pickup trucks and SUVs used for personal commuting and pollute more than TDIs off the road first then we can talk about it.
2
Mr. Hinton should have no reason to complain about his car's mileage. If the EPA rated his car at 40 mpg but he was getting over 50, his repaired car should get the as advertised mileage of 40 mpg. There was no false advertising when he purchased the car.
7
Beating the EPA rating by 10% or so is easy if you upshift sooner, coast more, accelerate gradually, don't speed, etc. Greater improvements, especially the extremes claimed by "hypermilers", may not be averaged accurately between fill-ups or over different conditions (e.g., tailwind, altitude changes, weather (A/C)). It seems fair that VW would owe owners compensation for the reduced resale value and increased fuel costs, which can be accurately calculated, as well as for degraded performance (torque, speed) and their embarrassment, which cannot.
Regarding its street performance, he took a road test. Regarding the fuel economy, the car has a street reputation of beating its EPA economy numbers, a fact known by most diesel enthusiasts who bought this car.
2
When I first read of this recall, it occurred to me that many owners would not have the emissions bypass fixed because they don't want to drive low performance dogs. So what is to be done to prevent that from happening? A means of enforcement is available in the states where periodic emission and performance tests are a requirement for obtaining a car registration, but most states have no such requirement.
I have yet to read an honest critical assessment on the use of diesel engines on passenger cars. The fact is that they are intrinsically ill suited for this use. Diesels operate poorly until they heat up, hence they're ill suited for stop and go driving. Secondly, they are only efficient within a narrow rang of RPM's; that's why diesel powered over the road trucks come with gearboxes having multi-levels.
The reason diesel engined passenger cars are popular in Europe is because gasoline is incredibly expensive there primarily due to sky-high fuel taxes.
I have yet to read an honest critical assessment on the use of diesel engines on passenger cars. The fact is that they are intrinsically ill suited for this use. Diesels operate poorly until they heat up, hence they're ill suited for stop and go driving. Secondly, they are only efficient within a narrow rang of RPM's; that's why diesel powered over the road trucks come with gearboxes having multi-levels.
The reason diesel engined passenger cars are popular in Europe is because gasoline is incredibly expensive there primarily due to sky-high fuel taxes.
4
Nonsense about "low performance dogs." Nobody uses all the available power anyway. The performance is still there, with a bit more pedal. You are referring to the "impression" of performance, which is a psychological trick not worth consideration.
Whether am I am driving my 2013 Porsche 911, or my 2015 Subaru Forester, I occasionally, legally, use all available power for a few seconds of maximum acceleration. Doing so under certain special conditions leads to a safer, saner driving experience. Actually, I will eventually replace my current non-turbo Forester with a turbo version to improve maximum performance.
2
Giskander, obviously you do not own one of these tdi's. I own 2, one manual, one automatic. Both startup as easily as any gas engine in - 10F weather and can be driven immediately and run great. (glow plugs less than 5 sec even on the coldest days). My 2009 with dsg (automated manual) is one of if not the most enjoyable cars that I have driven. Sure they don't have a high redline, they make their torque down low compared to gasoline engines. With their abundant torque ar lower rpm's, they are a pleasure to drive. Try putting a comparable HP gas engine in an 80,000lb rig and you'll see how many gears you will need to get it rolling. All those gears are not because diesels don't rev.
1
We are still a free country, so you can't force anybody to sell their car back. Even the California solution might be not legally enforceable to those willing to fight. Now it is a small part of the fleet so the issue is not that great. Probably folks won't fix these things until it is proved that it won't ruin their cars. VW should offer to buy back the cars for the original price.
8
Bingo! VW must buy back.
6
Being a free country you can do want you want.
1
If owners do NOT pass State emission tests, can they be fined until they get the repair?
2
There is no doubt they would pass the state emissions tests which are nothing compared to the EPA tests that VW fooled, according to John German, who was quoted in the story.
3
There does not need to be a mileage penalty, if VW does more than a software fix. Their urea-injection diesel, which is used in the Passat, and which gets superior fuel mileage, is reported to meet emission standards.
It is critical that government not allow VW to get by on the cheap, and instead require it to fix all affected vehicles to meet or exceed advertised specifications. A separate question is whether to prosecute VW executives for conspiracy to defraud, which they surely practiced. (A couple of software developers acting independently, my, ahem, foot!)
My fear is that the government will not stand strongly with consumers, but will instead be content with sucking cash out of VW to fill government coffers, the managerial imperative at work.
It is critical that government not allow VW to get by on the cheap, and instead require it to fix all affected vehicles to meet or exceed advertised specifications. A separate question is whether to prosecute VW executives for conspiracy to defraud, which they surely practiced. (A couple of software developers acting independently, my, ahem, foot!)
My fear is that the government will not stand strongly with consumers, but will instead be content with sucking cash out of VW to fill government coffers, the managerial imperative at work.
29
CARB should lean hard on VW to replace all the diesels with new gasoline engine vehicles. It's a $10 billion fix and could be done in lieu of a fine. (Public health, not vengeance, comes first.)
The problem is that Diesels really aren't fixable. If you optimize mileage (and lower greenhouse impact) you operate at high temps that produce nitrogen oxides. If you control for NOx control you aren't going to get the high mileage and zippy performance.
You can go to an alternative design like adblue (urea additive in exhaust) but it's very tough to see that kind of solution working well as an afterthought. It has to be designed into the system.
The problem is that Diesels really aren't fixable. If you optimize mileage (and lower greenhouse impact) you operate at high temps that produce nitrogen oxides. If you control for NOx control you aren't going to get the high mileage and zippy performance.
You can go to an alternative design like adblue (urea additive in exhaust) but it's very tough to see that kind of solution working well as an afterthought. It has to be designed into the system.
11
A fix is not going to change the operating temperature. I do wonder where you came up with that fanciful idea.
1
The EPA and many states cannot make owners comply, but this is an issue wholly caused by VW, and they should have the authority to make VW comply (even if it has to force VW to buy the cars back to get them off the road). If the government does not have this authority, what are any of the rules for and why should any manufacturers follow them?
66
Because in this country individuals are still free and regulations can only be applied legally. I don't own such a car but if I did no changes until and unless I know the consequences. If it ruins the performance I expect then no fix. The emissions are not that serious, perhaps VW could make some deal with trucking firms to reduce their emissions as an offset. Cap and trade principal.
2