Bravo for this column, Ms. Dowd. Two changes that would greatly improve the Church in the 21st are the following (and note that I am a male, "fallen-away" Catholic:
1. Women priests
2. NO celibacy: Allow priests to marry, regardless of whether straight or gay
Without these changes, the Church is still mired in the cesspool of its own irrelevance. Sure, Francis a is a great improvement, but the social justice he preaches has this huge duplex-vacancy where women and celibacy are concerned.
1. Women priests
2. NO celibacy: Allow priests to marry, regardless of whether straight or gay
Without these changes, the Church is still mired in the cesspool of its own irrelevance. Sure, Francis a is a great improvement, but the social justice he preaches has this huge duplex-vacancy where women and celibacy are concerned.
27
In my opinion, Pope Francis is just what what the Church so sorely needs - a shot in the arm and a kick in the pants.
As a Navy Veteran, I'd like to make a nautical analogy ...
The Catholic Church as a ship of state is analogous to an aircraft carrier underway, at full steam, in the Mediterranean (in the vicinity of Rome) - lumbering, awkward, top-heavy and in he process of a midcourse correction.
There are no power brakes to turn on a dime and the change, by definition and mechanics, has to be somewhat slow and methodical lest the ship risk floundering, listing and possible capsizing.
There is however, a new Captain - Pope Francis - at the helm and the ship seems to be emerging from dark, troubling waters and heading toward sunshine on the not too distant horizon.
As a Navy Veteran, I'd like to make a nautical analogy ...
The Catholic Church as a ship of state is analogous to an aircraft carrier underway, at full steam, in the Mediterranean (in the vicinity of Rome) - lumbering, awkward, top-heavy and in he process of a midcourse correction.
There are no power brakes to turn on a dime and the change, by definition and mechanics, has to be somewhat slow and methodical lest the ship risk floundering, listing and possible capsizing.
There is however, a new Captain - Pope Francis - at the helm and the ship seems to be emerging from dark, troubling waters and heading toward sunshine on the not too distant horizon.
21
No one, not even this Pope, can reform the Church because its theology doesn't permit reform. The Church has proclaimed its doctrines in such absolute terms on so many issues so long ago, that trying to address any of these issues now, for example, priestly celibacy or the position of women, will overthrow the whole edifice of "authority" and doctrine.
My late father, in his sardonic Spanish Catholic way, once told me that the problem with the Church is that, "They think they have the Lord by the short hairs." The Church has overreached and over asserted its knowledge and authority to such an extent that it is now paralyzed and incapable of change or reform.
My late father, in his sardonic Spanish Catholic way, once told me that the problem with the Church is that, "They think they have the Lord by the short hairs." The Church has overreached and over asserted its knowledge and authority to such an extent that it is now paralyzed and incapable of change or reform.
22
Pope Francis is almost always, at least in public, surrounded by male attendants and clergy. I suspect nuns don't interact with him in any truly informal, informative way. Does he know much about women, then? Perhaps he should hang out (and I mean hang out) with groups of women in a non-papal setting. Just to hear and see them. Maybe ask them questions. He could meet with office workers for several weeks at lunch hour, with women writers taking a break one on one, maybe, where they write. Women scholars. Here he might want to talk to scholars of religion. How about Elaine Pagels? I suspect he would be surprised. He seems open to new ways of looking at things. Given the chance, he might learn to see the ordination of women not only as necessary, but even a good thing.
22
Thank you, Maureen Dowd. In Paul's Epistle to the Romans, chapter 16. he commends "'our sister, Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae." Doesn't this mean that women were ordained as deacons in the early church? Abuse of women is a serious problem worldwide, and the church's relegating women to secondary status confirms the belief that women are less worthy then men. By example, the church gives approval to discrimination.
Furthermore, the Catholic church in America bemoans the shortage of priests. Many parishes are forced to share a priest. This issue could be easily resolved by ordaining the many gifted women who want to serve the church and would serve it and its people well. Symbols send powerful messages, and the all male priesthood on the altar concretizes the wrongfulness of discrimination.
Furthermore, the Catholic church in America bemoans the shortage of priests. Many parishes are forced to share a priest. This issue could be easily resolved by ordaining the many gifted women who want to serve the church and would serve it and its people well. Symbols send powerful messages, and the all male priesthood on the altar concretizes the wrongfulness of discrimination.
19
Agree with much Maureen Dowd states.
To balance out the embarrassing and nonsensical week of brown nosing by the corporate U.S. media of the corporate 3rd world Vatican CEO, I made sure my young daughter had some extra lessons on the pagan Autumnal Equinox and today's Asian Moon Festival. Both are more relevant for global modern times and do not involve any degradation of 3.5 billion females, Bronze Age religious chicanery and malfeasance, or corporate protected pedophilia.
To balance out the embarrassing and nonsensical week of brown nosing by the corporate U.S. media of the corporate 3rd world Vatican CEO, I made sure my young daughter had some extra lessons on the pagan Autumnal Equinox and today's Asian Moon Festival. Both are more relevant for global modern times and do not involve any degradation of 3.5 billion females, Bronze Age religious chicanery and malfeasance, or corporate protected pedophilia.
23
I agree with you Ms. Dowd on some things, the comments on the treatment of women to be most compelling. However, I would add that as a partial Catholic [Jewish on the other side] I would like to add that in time I feel this Pope will extend to women more than has been offered in the last 100 years. His is like any campaign, designed to change minds and practices as the times will allow.
With this trip he has established a faith to many who'd turned away from it. His words have helped mitigate the scandals but not erase them. Faith and trust in his deeds will help further. What his visit says to me is that we all need blessings, compassion and faith and to feel that if we become world citizens inclusive of the poor, the needy, the refugees and reminded of the golden rule that we can overcome much. I see the public recognition of women as a small step forward much as his words regarding LGBT and am patient enough to believe more good will evolve.
After all, we live in times where some changes sadly take more time than they should but the enthusiasm for good and compassion I witnessed gives me hope for a better world championed by the feelings the Pope helps arouse.
With this trip he has established a faith to many who'd turned away from it. His words have helped mitigate the scandals but not erase them. Faith and trust in his deeds will help further. What his visit says to me is that we all need blessings, compassion and faith and to feel that if we become world citizens inclusive of the poor, the needy, the refugees and reminded of the golden rule that we can overcome much. I see the public recognition of women as a small step forward much as his words regarding LGBT and am patient enough to believe more good will evolve.
After all, we live in times where some changes sadly take more time than they should but the enthusiasm for good and compassion I witnessed gives me hope for a better world championed by the feelings the Pope helps arouse.
4
His native language, Spanish, like many other languages, differentiate everyday objects as male or female. What can one expect? Francis is a breath of fresh air, the only thing our media is allowed to focus on which is not promotion of "greed is good".
3
The statement that “Mary is more important than the apostles” is not really encouraging. The Roman Church has always placed inordinate emphasis on the importance of that one woman, as mythologized, but hardly on others. The history and literature of the Middle Ages are full of stories of people praying and singing hymns to her, rather than to God, and of her miracles. Stories of her appearing in places all over Christendom are legion, and the ubiquity of statues and "Lady chapels" speaks for itself. The extreme emphasis on her virginity doesn't suggest much improvement in the Roman church's regard for women who are not celibate. Mary in recent centuries is very often represented in a light blue robe that hides her feet, making her seem so spiritual that her feet don't touch the ground. Even support for sex in marriage is grudging, with continued disapproval of birth control, going way back to Paul's approval of marriage only because it is better to marry than to burn.
8
My grandmothers - good church-going Catholics born in the 1870s - thought the priests were nuts when it came to birth control, and from what I've heard their views were typical of their generation of educated Catholic women. As young wives and mothers in the early twentieth century they faced much higher rates of crippling disease, premature death and economic cataclysm than we do today.
Modern contraception has been a boon to the well-being of families the world over. I believe the reason the Church rejected it so forcefully is that it upset the balance of power between a celibate clergy and a largely married laity.
The suffering of celibacy was balanced by the suffering of unplanned pregnancy. Removing the latter makes celibacy more burdensome, but the Church's answer is just too cruel, and it demeans the sacrifice of celibacy to impose unnecessary suffering on others, especially since it negatively impacts children.
Furthermore, attempts to stop abortion through abstinence and criminalization are a cruel failure that drives abortion underground and undermines prenatal care, driving up maternal and infant mortality. The nations with the lowest abortion and mortality rates follow the Planned Parenthood model - education, healthcare and contraception.
Many women do not like having the issue of their voice in the Church tied to contraception, but I believe contraception is both an urgent priority and the most promising path forward.
Modern contraception has been a boon to the well-being of families the world over. I believe the reason the Church rejected it so forcefully is that it upset the balance of power between a celibate clergy and a largely married laity.
The suffering of celibacy was balanced by the suffering of unplanned pregnancy. Removing the latter makes celibacy more burdensome, but the Church's answer is just too cruel, and it demeans the sacrifice of celibacy to impose unnecessary suffering on others, especially since it negatively impacts children.
Furthermore, attempts to stop abortion through abstinence and criminalization are a cruel failure that drives abortion underground and undermines prenatal care, driving up maternal and infant mortality. The nations with the lowest abortion and mortality rates follow the Planned Parenthood model - education, healthcare and contraception.
Many women do not like having the issue of their voice in the Church tied to contraception, but I believe contraception is both an urgent priority and the most promising path forward.
14
Women are the backbone of the Catholic Church and have been for centuries. Women are the ones who volunteer their time, bring their children to religion class, instill love and morals in families, listen and counsel, and much more. Being disabled and unable to make it to Mass on a regular basis, it is the women of my local parish who volunteer their time, and bring communion to me every Thursday. I give thanks to them and God every week for this blessing. With that said, it is my belief that (in God's eyes) ordaining women would be equivalent to giving men the ability to carry and give birth to children. An extreme analogy - yes - but the point is - ordination of women would be as unnatural to God's spiritual law as men giving birth would be to natural law. Not because women are deficient or 'unequal' to men in any way but because God ordained it to be so before the foundation of the world. Are men 'less' than women because they cannot give birth? If God wished for the ordination of women, Jesus would have ordained it during His life. Jesus did not have any women apostles; does that make Him a misogynist or bigot for not showing due 'equality'? Yet, His Holy Mother is considered higher than ALL apostles, saints and angels and is the Mother of the Church. Through her humility, love and obedience Mary elevated women for all Eternity. If men and women of the current times choose not to recognize these truths that does not mean God's Eternal law is all of a sudden negated.
7
Being an atheist now and a former catholic, i come to realize that Ms. Dowd left two important issues out of her questioning.
In the Sixties, the second vatican council urged for a revision on the role of women in the church and had many progressive ideas put forward.
However, the conservative popes that came after were slow to implement the resolutions of such a Council.
Some church historians say that John Paul the First (ellected in the Seventies) was one who hould get in touch with progressive ideas in the church.
However he had a weak health and died shortly after. John Paul the Second had a anti-communism cruzade as his main policy, and although popular, was not a progressive pope.
Ratzinger as Benedict XVI was even more conservative and in denial of the progress of the world ideas having been the leader of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith (the legal and ecclesiastic follower of the inquisition)
So Pope Frank is not REALLY one and a half century too late.
He is half a century too late.
That is even more clear when we look at the "achievements" the church had on the 19th century - that was the century in wich the pope was declared infallible as a dogma and in wich the immaculate conception of Mary was made a dogma as well.
So i think the pope should be treated as one pope that should have replaced Paul VI or John XXIII or John Paul I. But the cold war was still a big issue in 1978 whem JP II got the papacy.
In the Sixties, the second vatican council urged for a revision on the role of women in the church and had many progressive ideas put forward.
However, the conservative popes that came after were slow to implement the resolutions of such a Council.
Some church historians say that John Paul the First (ellected in the Seventies) was one who hould get in touch with progressive ideas in the church.
However he had a weak health and died shortly after. John Paul the Second had a anti-communism cruzade as his main policy, and although popular, was not a progressive pope.
Ratzinger as Benedict XVI was even more conservative and in denial of the progress of the world ideas having been the leader of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith (the legal and ecclesiastic follower of the inquisition)
So Pope Frank is not REALLY one and a half century too late.
He is half a century too late.
That is even more clear when we look at the "achievements" the church had on the 19th century - that was the century in wich the pope was declared infallible as a dogma and in wich the immaculate conception of Mary was made a dogma as well.
So i think the pope should be treated as one pope that should have replaced Paul VI or John XXIII or John Paul I. But the cold war was still a big issue in 1978 whem JP II got the papacy.
1
POPE FRANCIS has made many broad statements that can be applied to church doctrine. To my mind, he has clearly indicated the primacy of, Love your neighbor as yourself over orthodoxies. I think he's picking his fights wisely. He says things that I've heard no other pope say toward accepting women and LGBT people as well as showing flexibility in healing women who have had abortions, rather than casting them into eternal damnation.
I think that the Pope, like Obama, is a study in soft power. He's hewing to the biblical injunction, Do not enforce my laws while forgetting their spirit. The Pope is doing as much as he can do to advance the causes of women.
I see the article as attributing to the Pope more power than any single person can have. The expectation is that he will right all wrongs immediately and tilt things in the Catholic church toward ideals more suited to liberal democracies.
But that's not how things work. Many of us have presented our differences to our parents and grandparents, of whom we have expected acknowledgement and acceptance of the paths our lives have taken, while remaining true to their beliefs. The Pope is doing no more than that--moving as far as he can within the framework of what is possible. I'll be very interested to see what develops during the future years of his papacy. Francis is a very warm, engaging, caring person, whom we cannot expect to fit into 21st and 20th century stereotypes. We need to accept him as he is too!
I think that the Pope, like Obama, is a study in soft power. He's hewing to the biblical injunction, Do not enforce my laws while forgetting their spirit. The Pope is doing as much as he can do to advance the causes of women.
I see the article as attributing to the Pope more power than any single person can have. The expectation is that he will right all wrongs immediately and tilt things in the Catholic church toward ideals more suited to liberal democracies.
But that's not how things work. Many of us have presented our differences to our parents and grandparents, of whom we have expected acknowledgement and acceptance of the paths our lives have taken, while remaining true to their beliefs. The Pope is doing no more than that--moving as far as he can within the framework of what is possible. I'll be very interested to see what develops during the future years of his papacy. Francis is a very warm, engaging, caring person, whom we cannot expect to fit into 21st and 20th century stereotypes. We need to accept him as he is too!
8
I'd posit it's not the Pope, but the Church that is "in the wrong place at the wrong time"...
With a tip of the hat to Mac Mac Rebennack:
I been in the right place
But it must have been the wrong time
I'd have said the right thing
But I must have used the wrong line
I'd a took the right road
But I must have took a wrong turn
Would have made the right move
But I made it at the wrong time
I been on the right road
But I must have used the wrong car
My head was in a good place
And I wonder what it's bad for
With a tip of the hat to Mac Mac Rebennack:
I been in the right place
But it must have been the wrong time
I'd have said the right thing
But I must have used the wrong line
I'd a took the right road
But I must have took a wrong turn
Would have made the right move
But I made it at the wrong time
I been on the right road
But I must have used the wrong car
My head was in a good place
And I wonder what it's bad for
6
Maureen really should know better. Here voicing the common woman's viewpoint without much balance or introspection.
Most if not all fights for equality in history were pushed from the oppressed, not leadership. Leaders are typically powerless to effect polarizing change on the scale Ms Dowd demands. It's quite clear the political costs (at this time) are too high for even a Pope. The current Pope did not create the Church and as the excellent piece yesterday on his battle against conservatives explains - he has line to walk to remain legitimate.
I respect Francis for trying to bring people back to the table instead of pushing them to the wings with polarizing speech. As bad as Women in the Catholic Church have it, they are willing subjects of a State that has disrespected them for centuries. How can anyone expect one Pope is able to change all that?
The Pope didn't have much to do with the current system but he's doing more than his fair share of bringing people together, making them think about climate change, the poor and immigration in a positive light. He isn't putting up any additional road blocks to women and from what I can see is pushing closer to the line with respect to conservatives on this matter than any pope previously.
Catholic women seem to have their work cut out for them to gain the equality they deserve and demand. First in order is to silence the "Well it's the Word of God" argument their leadership is spewing.
Most if not all fights for equality in history were pushed from the oppressed, not leadership. Leaders are typically powerless to effect polarizing change on the scale Ms Dowd demands. It's quite clear the political costs (at this time) are too high for even a Pope. The current Pope did not create the Church and as the excellent piece yesterday on his battle against conservatives explains - he has line to walk to remain legitimate.
I respect Francis for trying to bring people back to the table instead of pushing them to the wings with polarizing speech. As bad as Women in the Catholic Church have it, they are willing subjects of a State that has disrespected them for centuries. How can anyone expect one Pope is able to change all that?
The Pope didn't have much to do with the current system but he's doing more than his fair share of bringing people together, making them think about climate change, the poor and immigration in a positive light. He isn't putting up any additional road blocks to women and from what I can see is pushing closer to the line with respect to conservatives on this matter than any pope previously.
Catholic women seem to have their work cut out for them to gain the equality they deserve and demand. First in order is to silence the "Well it's the Word of God" argument their leadership is spewing.
6
Let the men have their vestments and rituals. When it comes to the actual work of the church -- tending to the aged, poor and sick, educating the young -- women greatly out-participate men in most Catholic parishes.
18
Entering the 19th Century would bring the Church forward 200 years. It is hard to sneer at that. Still, many of the problems the Pope wishes to address are the result of population growth outstripping resources. In much of the Third World, population has quadrupled in the last fifty/sixty years. For example, the Philippines went from roughly 25mm to about 100mm since 1960. If you look at China and India, they had similar GDP per head for decades, then China instituted one-child-per-family and now far out-performs India per-capita. If Pope Francis really wants to fix the problem, he needs to make birth control a sacrament.
12
A 19th century pope would not have put the archdiocese of Philadelphia on notice this morning that sex abuse by priests, and cover-up of sex abuse by priests, will not be tolerated. (Let's put it this way - it was going on then, too, and DID any pope speak against it? No.)
5
I don't believe ending celibacy and allowing women to become priests will stop the child abuse .
6
Francis would do well to listen to President Jimmy Carter's Ted Talk
on the mistreatment of women as the number one human rights violation
in the world. Misinterpretation of scripture by men to their advantage
plays a significant role in the abuse of women-along with violence and apathy.
"Women are not equal in the eyes of God" legitimizes abuse and wage discrimination.
on the mistreatment of women as the number one human rights violation
in the world. Misinterpretation of scripture by men to their advantage
plays a significant role in the abuse of women-along with violence and apathy.
"Women are not equal in the eyes of God" legitimizes abuse and wage discrimination.
20
Well thought out by Dowd. Pope Francis wants the world to fight climate change, which increases desertification and famine. Millions of children starve and die for lack of food year after year! yet Pope Francis said women should have many children. Let's not canonize this 19th-Century Pope yet.
8
The Pope getting is so many things improved in the church, it's already almost super human. Single issue kvetching, even rueing the successes because they distract from the one failure, doesn't make sense to me.
9
Ms Dowd's article is a "breath of fresh air" The Pope has talked about most everything from politics to environment & poverty, yet he has failed to mention anything of women other than that he appreciates what women do. This is what Catholic women do: If you're lucky: Volunteer, clean the church and alter, Cook for the local priest or for church dinners, & teach for low pay in Catholic schools that are ruled ultimately by men. If you're not so lucky: You live in total poverty, with many children to take care of or you live &remain with a husband who is drunkard and or abusive and a constant threat to you and to the children. The Pope and his male colleagues/representatives comfort women who live in bondage, poverty, & danger and assure them that this too shall pass and but will one day you will be rewarded in heaven.(and it might be sooner than you think)
11
Ah 'tis good to take a deep breath, anticipate the Blood Moon for what it is and finally admit to myself I'm an atheist. And remember Galileo Galilei!
13
I don't understand why those who are not Catholic feel as if they can express an opinion here. I am not a Muslim and would not be in any position to provide comments on its leader.
I sense largely the upper crust's dissatisfaction with the fawning treatment that Francis received in the American media this week. Their view is that unless you agree with them on all matters, you ought to be denied any special treatment and/or be proven to be a defective person.
I don't believe that Francis considers himself without sin. The upper crust ought to have that same modesty.
I sense largely the upper crust's dissatisfaction with the fawning treatment that Francis received in the American media this week. Their view is that unless you agree with them on all matters, you ought to be denied any special treatment and/or be proven to be a defective person.
I don't believe that Francis considers himself without sin. The upper crust ought to have that same modesty.
8
An ignorant and disgusting column by someone with a one-track mind and a total lack of understanding of what the Pope is trying to do. He is trying to uplift all of humanity, but he cannot do everything at once. Basic doctrinal matters cannot be changed with a snap of the fingers. And he has so little time. Shame on you.
10
This is an excellent article, thank you so much. I have been a "recovering Catholic" for many years now and am one who has been enamored of this Pope and the way he's embraced so many that other Popes have alienated. That said, one of the biggest reasons I'm no longer a practicing Catholic is the lack of common sense regarding women in leadership positions in the Church. I am named for an aunt who was a Little Sister of the Poor and one of the most amazing women I've ever known. She could have given so much more if allowed. I love the way this article is written and designed to make people think instead of simply blindly follow. So well done!
11
The Church is in "arrested development", Maureen? Always the spoiler, you throw mud rather than showcase the revolutionary improvements this Pope has instituted. There has been nothing like it since its modest beginnings. How about taking on the Screwem and Cheatem business culture which predomiinates today instead?
11
Rome wasn't unbuilt in a day.
Men --- what to do about them?
What will come first, women priests in the Catholic Church (many impatient ones have already gone over to become Lutheran and Episcopal ones), or a woman as US President?
This may need to be a US-driven priority -- it does not necessarily come across as compellingly in Latin America as in North America.
But what's up with this male-dominated church thing? Why didn't the New Testament have 2 gospels by men and 2 by women? Why were all 12 apostles reportedly men (but maybe there were 24 apostles, 12 of each gender, but only the 12 men got written about)? And what was going on during those first 1200 years of the church, before it was decided priests had to be celibate -- maybe there were women priests along the way too, but we just didn't hear about it. Maybe there is a secret book in the vaults of the Vatican that explains -- "we already tried women priests, and this is why it didn't work out very well at all."
In any case, Ms. Dowd has a point -- and this is her job, to go against the flow of the glow -- “the Francis Effect" -- everyone else is feeling right now: "His magnetic, magnanimous personality is making the church, so stained by the vile sex abuse scandal, MORE attractive to people — even though the Vatican stubbornly clings to its archaic practice of treating women as a lower caste."
"Lower caste"? Really? As in Twice-Born Brahmins versus Untouchables? And men "just don't get it."
Men --- what to do about them?
What will come first, women priests in the Catholic Church (many impatient ones have already gone over to become Lutheran and Episcopal ones), or a woman as US President?
This may need to be a US-driven priority -- it does not necessarily come across as compellingly in Latin America as in North America.
But what's up with this male-dominated church thing? Why didn't the New Testament have 2 gospels by men and 2 by women? Why were all 12 apostles reportedly men (but maybe there were 24 apostles, 12 of each gender, but only the 12 men got written about)? And what was going on during those first 1200 years of the church, before it was decided priests had to be celibate -- maybe there were women priests along the way too, but we just didn't hear about it. Maybe there is a secret book in the vaults of the Vatican that explains -- "we already tried women priests, and this is why it didn't work out very well at all."
In any case, Ms. Dowd has a point -- and this is her job, to go against the flow of the glow -- “the Francis Effect" -- everyone else is feeling right now: "His magnetic, magnanimous personality is making the church, so stained by the vile sex abuse scandal, MORE attractive to people — even though the Vatican stubbornly clings to its archaic practice of treating women as a lower caste."
"Lower caste"? Really? As in Twice-Born Brahmins versus Untouchables? And men "just don't get it."
3
The pope should do our over crowded world a favor and encourage his flock to use birth control. GASP! What a concept! And as for those nuns - the pope "loves them" but stay in the back of the bus girls! It would've meant a lot if he, and the boys in red hats, would've allowed just one little nun to sit among them.
18
Many churches seem to be facing this problem. Their doctrine isn't translating well to some people, but if you change fundamental beliefs, what do you have left?
The Mormons seem to be doing all right even though their faith has some big holes. The Catholics as well. Maybe many churchgoers are willing to go along with churches that do not pass Maureen Dowd's muster but still fill a need for faith in their lives.
The Mormons seem to be doing all right even though their faith has some big holes. The Catholics as well. Maybe many churchgoers are willing to go along with churches that do not pass Maureen Dowd's muster but still fill a need for faith in their lives.
4
Unfortunately, the pope is the head of an institution that has the inertia of a ten ton boulder that has been held firmly in place by centuries of tradition and deliberate resistance within the curia and the papacy itself to any kind of change. Pope Francis can nudge here and there around the periphery in regard to the church's priorities, but he has made it plain that there will be no doctrinal changes during his reign.
3
I think Dowd is blinded here by this one issue.. -Is all the good that this Pope seeks to do undermined because the church chooses to follow it's 2000 year tradition of having only male priests.?? That would seem a ridiculous & sophomoric point of view. I mean really...! As the pope calls for action on climate change, the environment, unbridled capitalism, immigration, refugees, etc etc.. Ms Dowd sees the issue of who becomes a priest as the defining issue of the day...-- PLeeeaase.. Spare me that.
10
Thank you, Ms. Dowd for pointing out the obvious. The Catholic Church will never be and can never be universal or modern until a Woman can be Pope.
14
Did anyone really expect the church to be taking a giant leap forward into the 21st century right now? No one even expected a pope as forward-looking as the one we now have. The church has to crawl before it can walk. As powerful as the office of the pope is, it is not all-powerful. If this pope brings the church into the 19th century, well, that's progress. Maybe the next one will bring it into the 20th, and so forth. And maybe eventually it will come to the realization that God is nothing more than a man-made idea. That's something to look forward to.
4
The most amusing feature of the Pope's popularity and his visit to America is watching progressives who are atheists lining up to embrace him and claim him as one of their own.
3
Do not confuse Francis and religion. Religion in public, religion as policy, religion as a way of life is bad, for all the reasons MS. Dowd enumerates AND MANY MORE.
Do not confuse goodness or morality with religion.
Believe what you will, privately; live by your private principles, but public, structured religion is BAD for everyone.
Do not confuse goodness or morality with religion.
Believe what you will, privately; live by your private principles, but public, structured religion is BAD for everyone.
5
Most of us non religion fanatics are going thru enhanced torture looking at a hyper media love affair with hypocrisy. Are we a nation that was established on the separation of church and state? Or we are descending to a 19th century dark ages?
Thank you Ms Dowd for exposing some of this hypocrisy.
Thank you Ms Dowd for exposing some of this hypocrisy.
3
Well, you bought the t-shirt Ms. Dowd.
2
If "charity begins at home," perhaps radical theology should begin in the Catholic Church itself. Why not let priests marry? Why not have female priests? Why not have gay and lesbian priests? And how about acknowledging that overpopulation, with the need for women's reproductive rights, is part of the global warming problem? Now that would be a radical papacy.
11
I think it is interesting that Maureen Dowd and many commenters think the pope has said many "feel good things." He has kindly and compassionately read us the riot act. It seems that an effect often seen with satire is operating here- we don't think he is talking about us. When the pope is indicting the rich, the powerful, the materialistic, he is talking about us. All of us, liberals and conservatives in America. He is increasing the power of the Latin American and African clergy and reducing the influence of American and European clergy. He discounts the US as a leader for the future of the Church. Maureen Dowd is right, compared to the plight of the poor, the refugee, the environment, the plight of women in church leadership doesn 't seem like an issue to him. And unless you connect the position of women in the church to how it will uplift the forgotten outside the church, the Pope will continue to ignore gender as an issue. Right now, opinion pieces like this one could easily be cast as the defensive response of another materialistic American with a misplaced sense of priorities dodging her responsibility to act on behalf of the poor. Connect women's position to poverty, greed, violence, not as their victims, but as the leaders who could succeed solving these problems where male leadership has failed, and I think the Pope will have to listen.
7
Beautifully said. Thank you.
1
Threats of post-mortem punishment deter only those who believe that there is any possibility that death could be worse than oblivion.
I was ready to lambaste you, Maureen. I'm not Catholic but I like to this pope and his message on greed, capitalism, the poor, the environment and so much more. But I have to say you are right, sadly correct.
7
I wish the Holy Father could travel 200 years back in time so he could better appreciate the advances accrued in health care, nutrition, farming, transportation, shelter, hygiene, life expectancy, and overall quality of life solely brought about by free market capitalism
2
First off, that was never free market capitalism. It was more or less what Adam Smith intended it to be: a regulated market.
Second off, sure, the last 200 years of technical and social progress were grounded in capitalism. And that capitalism, that progress, also relied on slavery, on the worst imaginable colonialism, and on the immiseration of millions in the West itself.
For crying out loud, it's like people never cracked a history book, or saw Jacob Riis' photos, or read Defoe and Fielding and Blake, or learned about the Civil War and Triangle Shirtwaist, or read about the Belgian Congo, or I.G. farbenindustrie and fascism, or...well, much of anything.
Oh, by the way? From basic safety regs, to the40-hour week, to sick leave and vacation, to preventing cholera, to sticking a blowout preventer on the oil rig to honest EPA reports, "capitalism," has spent as much time FIGHTING progress as advancing it.
Second off, sure, the last 200 years of technical and social progress were grounded in capitalism. And that capitalism, that progress, also relied on slavery, on the worst imaginable colonialism, and on the immiseration of millions in the West itself.
For crying out loud, it's like people never cracked a history book, or saw Jacob Riis' photos, or read Defoe and Fielding and Blake, or learned about the Civil War and Triangle Shirtwaist, or read about the Belgian Congo, or I.G. farbenindustrie and fascism, or...well, much of anything.
Oh, by the way? From basic safety regs, to the40-hour week, to sick leave and vacation, to preventing cholera, to sticking a blowout preventer on the oil rig to honest EPA reports, "capitalism," has spent as much time FIGHTING progress as advancing it.
2
Pope Francis seems to be moving forward at a pace that, for the Church, is breathtaking. Some seem to expect that the changes will happen even more quickly but he is, after all, only a man, and one of a certain age. It is, of course, a deep detriment to the Church that women remain outside of the first tier of action and responsibility but their voices will be heard through other channels. Their day is coming soon, but the hand will not be forced. When it is right it will happen and the results will be breathtaking.
4
Yes, the Pope is not perfect, but he is a breath of fresh air. As a militant atheist, I have come to love and respect this Pope -- immensely. Does he need to do more to bring the Church into the 21st Century? Yes. But, if he were to prioritize his messages and his actions, wouldn't global warming and kindness to others and confronting the excesses of capitalism be more urgent than some other issues? Absolutely. Ms. Dowd is like a petulant little kid who is never satisfied with what the world around her has to offer; she always wants more, and she wants it right now!
9
There is only a certain type of woman who wants to be a priest, bishop or pope. The kind who want to make abortion ok. There is no other reason a woman would want it. Women teach, preach, give lectures, become theologians, manage parish business, bring solace to the sick, minister to the poor, etc... all the things lay men do. I would imagine most women see the business of the church in the same way men do. The only difference being that a particular type of woman wants power to pronounce the killing of their children acceptable. I don't see any other reason to want to become a cleric. The power? The presitge? To have people give them some kind of obedience, to bow to them? Must be. Most men don't want to be priests because of the sacrifice they are called to so I can't imagine why women would want that sacrifice if not for the power trip it must give them.
6
I am inspired by Pope Francis. I do think he can only do so much without starting a whole new church. I think that would distract from his ministry. The Catholic Church is probably incapable of moving much faster without becoming part of storefront Protestantism where anyone with a good idea can open a church devoted to that idea, as far as I know ( If the was a central authority it would be a 'pope' wouldn't it.)
3
This spiritual leader seems to have the same issues as his predecessors and peers on one topic - S E X. Whether the subject is divorce, abortion, contraception, or marital relations, he and the others seem like turtles, pulling their collective heads within their shell of antiquated religious bigotry. Any topic of this sort points ultimately, for these people, to a subjugated portion of our population - women, and to a tortured concept they cannot handle - sex. And they seem to perceive sex as a "woman problem" and indelibly mixed together, when in fact it is their struggle as damaged males that hideous sexual crimes and unforgivable sexist attitudes prevail. Ms. Dowd is correct in her analysis that this pope resides in outdated philosophical beliefs; one only wonders if his admirable stance on climate and economic issues amounts to a smokescreen of sorts, hiding the deeper, troubling stance towards half of the human population.
6
Ms. Dowd must have taken the week off from Politician Bashing in order to Bash the Pope. Being the Feminist that she is, she should stop and consider how many years it took the U.S. to make an amendment to the Constituiton regarding Womens Rights. The Catholic Church, (and for those not in the know, - Catholic references the term Universal), has been around for 2,000 years. The U.S. about 200 years. Perhaps, the Pope will eventually prompt the changes necessary to allow Woman to serve as Priests, and Altar girls! Maybe with time Ms. Dowd might just write another article concerning Pope Francis and the ENTIRE body of work he will bring about!
3
Maureen, the Catholic men that seek priesthood have their issues, as do we all. These people seek a world where men run things. They do not want women in the wheelhouse. To bring change, Pope Francis would need to convince men that do not want change, men that fear change, men that may fear the august power of women. Think about that.
St. Francis is not evil. He is good. He is charming, but we do not know this man. Nor do we know if he can speak to his fellow priests and get the curia and the bishops around the world to want what you do - and I would.
The Vatican is a mess of intrigue. No surprise. Men's clubs get that way fast.
Every priest had a mother. Every priest rejected a life with women.
You ask those that reject to accept. This is a tall order. Women in the clergy would alter the church. What would this say to Jesus and his disciples? Why did they not ask a woman to join them? What do these men think when they contemplate life in a world void of women?
We speak of a life in the priesthood, but I have talked with priests that want to change things. The younger man speaks of marriage, children, and love for his church. In each I sense ambivalence.
What priest has what it takes to make it with women, to make it in a world where a man's relationship with a woman determines things.
What priest can not explain the sexual mess of the church? What priest will do that?
The church is a nice romantic version of what reaches God. Is there a God?
Who knows?
St. Francis is not evil. He is good. He is charming, but we do not know this man. Nor do we know if he can speak to his fellow priests and get the curia and the bishops around the world to want what you do - and I would.
The Vatican is a mess of intrigue. No surprise. Men's clubs get that way fast.
Every priest had a mother. Every priest rejected a life with women.
You ask those that reject to accept. This is a tall order. Women in the clergy would alter the church. What would this say to Jesus and his disciples? Why did they not ask a woman to join them? What do these men think when they contemplate life in a world void of women?
We speak of a life in the priesthood, but I have talked with priests that want to change things. The younger man speaks of marriage, children, and love for his church. In each I sense ambivalence.
What priest has what it takes to make it with women, to make it in a world where a man's relationship with a woman determines things.
What priest can not explain the sexual mess of the church? What priest will do that?
The church is a nice romantic version of what reaches God. Is there a God?
Who knows?
Patriarchial Systems are very self-serving and allow control of 1/2 the population, in that famous male written story of the "fall from the garden" it was written in stone, a woman said yes to the devil, everyone banished from heaven at the hand of a woman. Then you have the " protecting the seed" story. Jeb Bush a Catholic convert says we need immigrants from Hispanic Countries because they have family values are "fertile" and a labor supply. Indeed, arrested development sounds like slavery to me. Religions based on "good vs evil" with women identified as evil sets the framework for control.
5
Thank you, Maureen. It's been interesting to watch so many otherwise critical thinkers drink the Francis Kool-Aid over the past week.
When the Pope speaks passionately about the destruction of the environment and about climate change, for instance, why aren't more voices - including that of Greenpeace - pointing out that overpopulation contributes significantly to that, and that Francis leads a church that considers contraceptive use a sin? (i know a devout Catholic who was barred by her parish priest from receiving the sacraments because she confessed to using birth control - on her doctor's orders, since another pregnancy and birth would have been life-threatening).
Francis - like President Obama - works best as a Rorschach Test. People see in both what they most want to see, and they're delighted. But in many respects - often the most important and meaningful ones - you don't have to look too carefully to see that there's just no there there.
When the Pope speaks passionately about the destruction of the environment and about climate change, for instance, why aren't more voices - including that of Greenpeace - pointing out that overpopulation contributes significantly to that, and that Francis leads a church that considers contraceptive use a sin? (i know a devout Catholic who was barred by her parish priest from receiving the sacraments because she confessed to using birth control - on her doctor's orders, since another pregnancy and birth would have been life-threatening).
Francis - like President Obama - works best as a Rorschach Test. People see in both what they most want to see, and they're delighted. But in many respects - often the most important and meaningful ones - you don't have to look too carefully to see that there's just no there there.
7
Dear Ms. Dowd:
I am not Catholic. Actually, I'm pretty much "unchurched" these days, although I was raised in both the Methodist and UCC traditions. However, I think you have fallen into the trap of letting perfect be the enemy of the good with regard to this Pope. I listened (as much as I could) to Pope Francis' messages to Congress, to people, to his fellow clerics and what I heard was: "welcome immigrants, abolish the death penalty, stop selling weapons, work for peace, cherish the Earth, do more for "the least of these" and pray unceasingly." Those are valid and much-needed messages that should not be lost in your rightful criticisms of the Catholic Church as a whole.
I am not Catholic. Actually, I'm pretty much "unchurched" these days, although I was raised in both the Methodist and UCC traditions. However, I think you have fallen into the trap of letting perfect be the enemy of the good with regard to this Pope. I listened (as much as I could) to Pope Francis' messages to Congress, to people, to his fellow clerics and what I heard was: "welcome immigrants, abolish the death penalty, stop selling weapons, work for peace, cherish the Earth, do more for "the least of these" and pray unceasingly." Those are valid and much-needed messages that should not be lost in your rightful criticisms of the Catholic Church as a whole.
4
I think the reading chosen from Genisus for one of the Pope's masses was pretty telling about his attitude and the attitude of the church toward women generally. It was the passage in which Adam blames Eve for getting him to eat the apple from the forbidden tree. When asked by God why he did it Adam says: The woman gave it to me.
The "fathers of the church" who are saints and held in high esteem even in today's church viewed women as the source of all evil and described their views in both demeaning and violent ways. Today's church may frame their position differently but the undercurrent of disgust with all things female is clear.
If Francis is serious about owning the church up he will return to the time when the church was not the monied entity exercising temporal power but the simple relgion of Christ wherein there was no male or female and women and men shared the roles of priests and bishops. But then there would be no power in that.
The "fathers of the church" who are saints and held in high esteem even in today's church viewed women as the source of all evil and described their views in both demeaning and violent ways. Today's church may frame their position differently but the undercurrent of disgust with all things female is clear.
If Francis is serious about owning the church up he will return to the time when the church was not the monied entity exercising temporal power but the simple relgion of Christ wherein there was no male or female and women and men shared the roles of priests and bishops. But then there would be no power in that.
4
I think Pope Francis is doing as much as he can to at least put the Catholic Church back on track of following the teachings of Vatican II. Prior to Pope Francis, there was this frightening school of thought of making the church leaner and meaner. This included some parish priests preaching the evils of social justice, including the benefits of school lunch programs--yes, this happened here in Utah with a parish priest in the northern part of the state. Thankfully, that sort of rhetoric has come to a screeching halt.
There is much that still needs to be rectified within the Catholic Church. But Pope Francis has made amends to our Catholic sisters, his focus is on the marginalized in our society and he has done much to bring the message of Jesus Christ to all--not just Catholics. My guess is most Catholics, including myself, two years ago didn't expect much change if any with a new pope. Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air.
There is much that still needs to be rectified within the Catholic Church. But Pope Francis has made amends to our Catholic sisters, his focus is on the marginalized in our society and he has done much to bring the message of Jesus Christ to all--not just Catholics. My guess is most Catholics, including myself, two years ago didn't expect much change if any with a new pope. Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air.
3
Maureen didn't get the memo. The Pope is now officially in with the liberal/left set.
It appears that a half-century of pounding by the liberal/left on the Roman Cathoci church finally had an effect on the Vatican who decided that if you can't beat em, join em. Hence we now have a very left of center pope after two very conservative popes. They think it will take the heat off them. I doubt it.
It appears that a half-century of pounding by the liberal/left on the Roman Cathoci church finally had an effect on the Vatican who decided that if you can't beat em, join em. Hence we now have a very left of center pope after two very conservative popes. They think it will take the heat off them. I doubt it.
2
The most certain path to defeat for progressives is to squabble over which issues to push first. We have a Pope who is willing to make a huge step forward. His policies will help billions, including women. We may well see that once we deal with inequality and corporate money in politics, that women will have more time and money to advance their agenda. Don't quash a massive change in the name of not getting the change you most wanted. Sometimes a big step forward will help provide leverage and momentum for the next step.
4
Your cynical op-ed makes Pope Francis sound like the Antichrist!
6
For the first time in a long time, I whole heartedly agree with Dowd on this one.
3
Ms. Dowd gets this wrong by completely and conveniently ignoring Pope Francis's statements on ecology. His thinking there is a genuine advance, a reasoned response to current conditions. All of those breathlessly promoting technology and industrialism as painless progress are those truly stuck in the 19th century.
3
"Catholicism is completely antithetical to gender equality"
No, Catholicism is completely antithetical to gender *interchangeability*. Which is just fine, because so is human biology. Women cannot become Priests because women were not among the Apostles. Its that simple. Jesus - who willingly challenged just about every other social norm of his time, including many relating to associating with women - nonetheless recognized the fundamental differences between the sexes, and selected only men to be his apostles.
Suppose we were to say that women could be Priests. And suppose we "ordained" them to the Priesthood. But further suppose that women cannot, actually, be Priests in the eyes of God. Then everything that women do as Priests - consecrate the Eucharist, grant absolution, give last rights, etc. - is invalid. Is that a risk you want to take? Well, maybe it is...because for the left, personal gratification of someone trumps reality.
No, Catholicism is completely antithetical to gender *interchangeability*. Which is just fine, because so is human biology. Women cannot become Priests because women were not among the Apostles. Its that simple. Jesus - who willingly challenged just about every other social norm of his time, including many relating to associating with women - nonetheless recognized the fundamental differences between the sexes, and selected only men to be his apostles.
Suppose we were to say that women could be Priests. And suppose we "ordained" them to the Priesthood. But further suppose that women cannot, actually, be Priests in the eyes of God. Then everything that women do as Priests - consecrate the Eucharist, grant absolution, give last rights, etc. - is invalid. Is that a risk you want to take? Well, maybe it is...because for the left, personal gratification of someone trumps reality.
6
Fair enough, but as a Catholic who has been frustrated by every pope since John XXIII, I can't help but note that Maureen is a person who believes that a glass that is nearly full is one-tenth empty.
3
Dear Maureen
You have shown the clay feet of the man who washes them. How long till dinosaurs evolve? Never, they did not adapt.
Dan
You have shown the clay feet of the man who washes them. How long till dinosaurs evolve? Never, they did not adapt.
Dan
2
Finally, a column by Ms. Dowd that I read from start to finish, in agreement.
3
Many of the comments here appall me in their condescending and patronizing tone. We might as well be back in the 60s, with menfolk telling us to get back in the kitchen and scrub those pots and pans. We no longer tolerate racism and discrimination against the LGBT community, so why is it still OK to tolerate sexism?
"Be patient!" they say. Why? Women have tolerated 2000 years of oppression. Enough already, I say.
Oh, but we're supposed to go easy on this pope, who seems so open in many other aspects. Change will come, but slowly. My response: If not now, when?
"Be patient!" they say. Why? Women have tolerated 2000 years of oppression. Enough already, I say.
Oh, but we're supposed to go easy on this pope, who seems so open in many other aspects. Change will come, but slowly. My response: If not now, when?
13
Oh, women's oppression is much much much older than that.
2
Over more recent times, unknown gospels have been discovered. In the beginnings of the church, men met and decided which gospels to keep and which to discard. My thinking is that since it were "men" who were the decision makers, they willfully omitted gospels giving women authority in the church. What will happen when this discovery is suddenly made? In the meantime, I have left the church and haven't looked back.
4
I suppose you can criticize the Pope for only being 7 centuries ahead of his church, but still not being the 21st century Pope. Non-Catholics are applauding his progressive movement.
Are the American evangelicals dragging their church backwards?
Are the American evangelicals dragging their church backwards?
3
Remember the part of the blessing that prays you'll have the wisdom to accept what you cannot change?
1
And the wisdom to know the difference. This is not unchangeable.
1
Thank you! Exactly - nothing really has changed with Francis. It might be kinder and more gently, but nothing has changed with doctrine.
7
In many of her opinions, MS. Dowd can come across as excessively shrill and mean-spirited. However, her opinion here on the role of women in the Catholic Church simply hits the nail on the head. The Catholic Church's hierarchies strict and inflexible dogma against women in leadership roles (i.e. second class citizens) undermines it's moral standing.
In this respect, the Catholic Church is in serious need of reform lest it continues it's long path to irrelevance...
In this respect, the Catholic Church is in serious need of reform lest it continues it's long path to irrelevance...
9
This editorial is right on point. One thing that is lost in this tidal wave of pope adoration is the fact one proven way for women to lift themselves and their families out of poverty is to give them complete control over their reproductive rights. Francis' church opposes any such measures and has, through legal challenges to the ACA, sought to limit that fundamental right to women, even those who may not be of their faith. Until the Catholic church embraces this truth, they will be an active participant in perpetuating global poverty rather than a vehicle for change.
10
Pope Francis is a conservative with a non-political, non-ideological lower case letter "c". Like most people. Francis will conserve, or more accurately preserve, the best of the traditions of the Church as he tries to move the Church into the modern era. For example, Jesus might have been correct to condemn divorce. In first century Judea, a divorced woman had no income, no means of support, could not own or inherit property, and lost her family. She was an outcast. Prohibiting divorce was the only way to protect women.
Maybe that prohibition might have made some sense through the ages. But women now work in and outside the home, so maybe it is time for some modification, some liberalization. But the Pope wearing black suede shoes is kool, unlike the Devil in red high-heel sneakers.
Maybe that prohibition might have made some sense through the ages. But women now work in and outside the home, so maybe it is time for some modification, some liberalization. But the Pope wearing black suede shoes is kool, unlike the Devil in red high-heel sneakers.
3
I find it very sad when anyone celebrates "their times" as infallible and correct. We have walked this Earth for millions of years, and Ms. Dowd should realize that the Life of Man, is but a paltry fraction of the time life existed on Earth.
There is no 19th or 20th or 21st century in the time Earth has been driven through the Universe by great cosmic winds. The very idea of God came to Humans who, when they looked to Heaven saw a multi splendorous site, not yet hidden by pollution and man made lights. Smugness is no substitute for sincere reflections on the eternal question; from where do I come and to Where do I go?.
People who are lost to "their Times" are doomed to the shallowness not shared by many, who trust they are the least important thing in the Universe. I wish Ms. Dowd only wellness, and I wish her recognition of the Force of Life within her, and the appreciation of all who serve their Ideals of God.
She mentions the Pope's Golden Rule, and drops it like a hot potato. Sadly, many people are afraid of a hell they feel they are preparing themselves for in daily life; perhaps they really are reserving a place for themselves, in an "uncompromising" after life. Perhaps they could learn from Pope Francis's sheer humility, the true meaning of their otherwise trivial lives.
There is no 19th or 20th or 21st century in the time Earth has been driven through the Universe by great cosmic winds. The very idea of God came to Humans who, when they looked to Heaven saw a multi splendorous site, not yet hidden by pollution and man made lights. Smugness is no substitute for sincere reflections on the eternal question; from where do I come and to Where do I go?.
People who are lost to "their Times" are doomed to the shallowness not shared by many, who trust they are the least important thing in the Universe. I wish Ms. Dowd only wellness, and I wish her recognition of the Force of Life within her, and the appreciation of all who serve their Ideals of God.
She mentions the Pope's Golden Rule, and drops it like a hot potato. Sadly, many people are afraid of a hell they feel they are preparing themselves for in daily life; perhaps they really are reserving a place for themselves, in an "uncompromising" after life. Perhaps they could learn from Pope Francis's sheer humility, the true meaning of their otherwise trivial lives.
3
Open the borders to the Vatican . Planned Parenthood needs chapter there .
3
To paraphrase Scoop Nisker -- If you don't like this church, make one of your own.
5
The Catholic Church must not only open the priesthood to women but end celibacy for both priests and nuns.
5
Get a grip, Maureen. Move forward. See what happens. Maybe progress will eventually allow you to become a priest.
1
Obama was publicly against same sex marriage, until he finally came out in favor of it.
Let's ll please give Pope Francis a chance - he is just getting started, God willing!
Let's ll please give Pope Francis a chance - he is just getting started, God willing!
3
I am not a Catholic. I am not even religious anymore. I forsake organized religion a decade ago out of complete disgust with the actions of a main-line Presbyterian Church with a signer of the Declaration of Independence interred its graveyard. But this man gives me pause and hope. I voted for someone. - remember that hope and change marketing campaign? Well, maybe I will convert to Catholicism, or at least embrace organized religion, again? Who knows, stranger things have happened.
Lets ask a question. Where in the world is there a enlightened understanding of the relationships between woman and woman, between wpmen and men and between woman and all else? Where are the models? If you are honest you will see we have yet to produce these. There is no universal understanding, there is no species wide truths we can stand on. It is therefore unrealistic to demand this of his church or of him. Will he produce an answer that is yet to exist? There are many denominations of the teachings of Christ, and anyone is free to start a new and different one. Isn't a bit childish to not do this if it is needed, and childish to expect 'daddy' to do it for you?
It's childish to expect that women should just wait for equality rather than have the church be a leader on this topic. Further, it's a very easy thing for a man to suggest when it doesn't affect him.
5
I agree, and there really are no sensible "yes, buts" to Ms. Dowd's final point. Truth!
4
Be patient, Maureen. Pope Francis isn't done yet with making the Church cooler. Think about what he's already accomplished. Forget outdated notions like "Sin no more". Today, being Catholic means "never having to say you're sorry".
Regardless of which of the Ten Commandments they've violated, sinners are all welcome to the Church's "family fire", even though they refuse to stop sinning, and even if they refuse to acknowledge that that what they're doing is sinful.
Imagine how consoling this is to a guy who cheats on his wife and then divorces her and marries the other woman. Under Francis' new "mercy for all" dispensation, the cheater and his girlfriend will both be treated as Good Catholics entitled to receive Holy Communion. And, of course, without having to say they're sorry.
That's really cool. And there's surely more to come. This new 21st century Pope is just getting started.
Regardless of which of the Ten Commandments they've violated, sinners are all welcome to the Church's "family fire", even though they refuse to stop sinning, and even if they refuse to acknowledge that that what they're doing is sinful.
Imagine how consoling this is to a guy who cheats on his wife and then divorces her and marries the other woman. Under Francis' new "mercy for all" dispensation, the cheater and his girlfriend will both be treated as Good Catholics entitled to receive Holy Communion. And, of course, without having to say they're sorry.
That's really cool. And there's surely more to come. This new 21st century Pope is just getting started.
Ms. Dowd is intellectually credible in her own right. I disagree with her politically. I actually would tend to consider her an enemy insofar as our overall critiques of reality are concerned.
I respect her thoughts regarding this particular Pope, and the Catholic faith in general though.
I love Catholic teaching and have practiced the Catholic faith at a devout level of participation.
Maureen has earned my respect.
Women as human beings, Women as spiritual creatures, Women as leaders, Women more openly welcomed into full participation.
Beautifully controversial in that lovely values are demanded in order to even discuss the topic with any mature claim of linguistic proficiency.
Ms. Dowd has done a lovely job-:)
I respect her thoughts regarding this particular Pope, and the Catholic faith in general though.
I love Catholic teaching and have practiced the Catholic faith at a devout level of participation.
Maureen has earned my respect.
Women as human beings, Women as spiritual creatures, Women as leaders, Women more openly welcomed into full participation.
Beautifully controversial in that lovely values are demanded in order to even discuss the topic with any mature claim of linguistic proficiency.
Ms. Dowd has done a lovely job-:)
3
The problem is that Christian theology was developed first by the misogynistic St. Paul, and then during the period when Christians had taken over the Roman imperial bureaucracy—that's when Christianity began to depart from the teachings of Christ, and became an instrument of power and controlling people.
Most of us buy the "history written by the victors" that Christians were always mercilessly persecuted under Roman imperial rule. Late antiquity is glossed over. So I always sorta thought that Christians survived in fear and underground till the fall of the Roman Empire, when they could emerge free to practice their religion. In fact, Christians were admitted to the military, civic life, and government positions. Their religious beliefs were accommodated—they were early Kim Davises and the extreme right GOP in Congress—until they took over, because Christians never think they have religious freedom until they're telling everybody else what to do. Persecution was rare and mostly local.
The life of Jesus shows that women played a vital, active role in the community he attracted. In antiquity, women held priestly roles in nearly all religions, except Judaism. Some priesthoods in Rome could be held only by women—but no political positions. In seeking secular power, Christians used the masculinist hierarchy instead of creating a new order of love and equality based on the community of Christ.
This is the legacy Francis has to deal with. You can't unravel two millennia at once.
Most of us buy the "history written by the victors" that Christians were always mercilessly persecuted under Roman imperial rule. Late antiquity is glossed over. So I always sorta thought that Christians survived in fear and underground till the fall of the Roman Empire, when they could emerge free to practice their religion. In fact, Christians were admitted to the military, civic life, and government positions. Their religious beliefs were accommodated—they were early Kim Davises and the extreme right GOP in Congress—until they took over, because Christians never think they have religious freedom until they're telling everybody else what to do. Persecution was rare and mostly local.
The life of Jesus shows that women played a vital, active role in the community he attracted. In antiquity, women held priestly roles in nearly all religions, except Judaism. Some priesthoods in Rome could be held only by women—but no political positions. In seeking secular power, Christians used the masculinist hierarchy instead of creating a new order of love and equality based on the community of Christ.
This is the legacy Francis has to deal with. You can't unravel two millennia at once.
19
While the rest of the non RC world waits with holding their breath.
1
oh goodness there's nothing dangerous about him ...some people are thinking too much. He's a very good person in a troubled world. That should be enough for one man.
Nailed it, Maureen!
13
Maureen, I think your Irish is showing here (nttawwt): you can see the beauty, brightness and hope demonstrated this week by the crowds of people in awe of the Pope and seeking his words on a better Future, yet you also feel compelled to discuss the darkness around the edges, always. That's the reality, or natural balance, kicking in. I think from what I heard of him this week, the Pope would be glad of you for your dialogue, critical or not. (Myself, I think the measuring stick for any motivational speaker, religious or otherwise, will be to see how much his words stay with the people today energized and engaged by him, in the weeks and months to come...)
1
Thank you.
5
I'm not a Catholic, but when I see a woman priest and a lifting of the ban on birth control, I might be able to accept the church in the 21st century. For now, now matter how charismatic and loving of the poor this pope is, he is still the head of the most sexist organization in the world.
15
I'd say the Saudi government is more sexist, wouldn't you?
1
This criticism of pop Francis also applies to St. Paul
who famously said- "women should remain silent in
the church". Ms. Dowd also should negate St. Paul.
While she is at it she should also rebuke the founding
fathers who denied the voting rights to women.
who famously said- "women should remain silent in
the church". Ms. Dowd also should negate St. Paul.
While she is at it she should also rebuke the founding
fathers who denied the voting rights to women.
6
The founding fathers have already been rebuked on women's voting rights.
1
Why assume that statements made and positions taken hundreds of years ago are still and evermore valid?
Ideas must be revisited and examined as times change, to determine if they are still relevant.
If you had asked him about it, Saul of Tarsus would have told you that the Sun revolves around the Earth -- no doubt about it. Centuries later, the Church would murder individuals who proclaimed otherwise. The Church no longer murders them, lucky for us.
Ideas must be revisited and examined as times change, to determine if they are still relevant.
If you had asked him about it, Saul of Tarsus would have told you that the Sun revolves around the Earth -- no doubt about it. Centuries later, the Church would murder individuals who proclaimed otherwise. The Church no longer murders them, lucky for us.
3
The Pope has total control of Catholic doctrine. Indeed, it is Catholic doctrine that he is "Infallible" on matters of doctrine. Unlike a president dealing with Congress, he doesn't need a veto-proof majority of cardinals to get anything done. If he wants to change "doctrine" to let women be priests, he can say so and Poof! it becomes church doctrine. Just like one of his predecessors decided women couldn't be priests. And Frank can do the same with contraception and abortion, gay marriage ,etc.
Older Catholics remember when "infallible Church doctrine" once forbid eating meat on Fridays - doing so was a mortal sin that would damn one's soul to hell. One of the Popes (John, Paul, whoever -- they all look alike) issued a bull (a term only half-descriptive) and Poof! Suddenly we kids were downing hamburgers on Friday. Ironically, Spanish catholics were exempt from the no-meat rule because, according to Vatican bull, Spain did so much to 'spread & defend the faith' in the Old and New World. They did that, of course, via the Inquisition, & enslavement and torture of native Americans for which Frank apologized when he was in Boliva. But to show he was was only kidding about that apology thing, he canonized Fr. Junipero Serra, one of the most notorious faith-spreading missionary torturers of all time. In Sonoma, names of dead indian "converts" who died while confined to the Mission are engraved on a stone monument. Tour guides don't mention them; it's Bad form.
Older Catholics remember when "infallible Church doctrine" once forbid eating meat on Fridays - doing so was a mortal sin that would damn one's soul to hell. One of the Popes (John, Paul, whoever -- they all look alike) issued a bull (a term only half-descriptive) and Poof! Suddenly we kids were downing hamburgers on Friday. Ironically, Spanish catholics were exempt from the no-meat rule because, according to Vatican bull, Spain did so much to 'spread & defend the faith' in the Old and New World. They did that, of course, via the Inquisition, & enslavement and torture of native Americans for which Frank apologized when he was in Boliva. But to show he was was only kidding about that apology thing, he canonized Fr. Junipero Serra, one of the most notorious faith-spreading missionary torturers of all time. In Sonoma, names of dead indian "converts" who died while confined to the Mission are engraved on a stone monument. Tour guides don't mention them; it's Bad form.
6
The pope does not have total control over Catholic doctrine. The magisterium has a part to play. Oh, it was not an infallible teaching about meat on Friday. It was a tradition that the church could change at any time. Infallible teachings are unchangeable, the last one being the Assumption, declared ex cathedra in 1950.
1
Village idiot (?) you are factually incorrect. Male priests are not a matter of doctrine they are a matter of "church tradition". He actually does need a strong consensus to change this practice. Same for contraception ,homosexuality, meatless Fridays etc. Just saying.
1
I find many of these comments very disrespectful and wonder if they would be printed and tolerated about other faiths. As a practicing Catholic, I do not recognize my Church in these responses and have had a very different experience in the Catholic Church. My Catholic faith is based on comfort, solace, forgiveness and joy. I love my faith and the priests and religious are very busy keeping the Church operating on a daily basis. They work extremely hard and are there for those in need and assist those who are the least among us. There have been moments in my life when I have met with a priest or nun during a difficult time and they have been extremely supportive and aided me with my troubles.
The Church is being treated unfairly and I feel as a Catholic I must defend my faith. I wish these critics would spend some time in Church with the priests, religious and laity before painting a wide judgmental brush condemning the Church. Thank God many of us do not feel this way and are in the pews week after week supporting this marvelous religion that has over 1.2 billion members.
The Church is being treated unfairly and I feel as a Catholic I must defend my faith. I wish these critics would spend some time in Church with the priests, religious and laity before painting a wide judgmental brush condemning the Church. Thank God many of us do not feel this way and are in the pews week after week supporting this marvelous religion that has over 1.2 billion members.
8
There is a well-thought-out reason for priests to be celibate, and women to serve the church in a separate category from men. A married priest would likely be focused on his own personal family. The desired focus of the church is to shepherd and guide the masses as if they were family. Although females have been "liberated" in today's society, they continue to have a different emotional make-up from a male. Emotions are not conducive to leadership. I, for one, still believe female support to a good male leader is valuable.
3
You clearly are unaware of the church's history. Early Priest's weren't celibate. The church only invented celibacy to keep control of its worldwide corporation. They didn't want Priests passing their parishes to their sons like a family business. It wasn't about leadership -- it was just about male greed.
2
With the history of priests' sexual abuse of children it might be prudent to re-visit that whole celibacy issue. Maybe if those priests could focus a bit more on their families they'd have less time to focus on the altar boys.
Maureen's column provides me with the opportunity to remind the pope that Christians make up only 33 percent of our planet's population of the 7.2 billion of our species. Nearly 5 billion of us reject the idea that Jesus is our savior. Anyone who has read the New Testament knows what that means for us. The threats are specific and numerous.
33 percent after 2000 years of effort. A pretty sorry batting average for a religion that supposedly has God on its side. And to make matters worse, half of that 33%, Catholics, are taught the other half, protestants, are going to hell and protestants are taught the same thing about Catholics.
Religion. Ain't it great?
33 percent after 2000 years of effort. A pretty sorry batting average for a religion that supposedly has God on its side. And to make matters worse, half of that 33%, Catholics, are taught the other half, protestants, are going to hell and protestants are taught the same thing about Catholics.
Religion. Ain't it great?
7
Thank you for the excellent article. No matter how "modern" Pope Francis is, the Church gets away with living back in the dark ages. And many people seem to love it like this. None of this makes any sense to me.
10
"Mary is more important than the apostles" ... "women in the church “more important than bishops and priests”
More important as what?
Ah--the basis of his evaluation as well as the standards--remain a papal mystery--along with all the other contradictions, incoherences and inscrutables--the flotsam of spinning fiction as nonfiction, mythos as logos.
Maybe they are important as are teenagers to MacDonalds--low paid gruntworkers, obedient to their male bosses--priests and bishops.
Keeping women subservient--slavish--seems to be working--like a sexual attractant--for ISIS. All those loser men, need a system catering to their needs.
More important as what?
Ah--the basis of his evaluation as well as the standards--remain a papal mystery--along with all the other contradictions, incoherences and inscrutables--the flotsam of spinning fiction as nonfiction, mythos as logos.
Maybe they are important as are teenagers to MacDonalds--low paid gruntworkers, obedient to their male bosses--priests and bishops.
Keeping women subservient--slavish--seems to be working--like a sexual attractant--for ISIS. All those loser men, need a system catering to their needs.
6
So many things Francis has said resonate with men and women of good will and open minds and hearts. Maureen Dowd is not wrong, though, in pointing out one glaring omission--gender equality. Apart from the role of women in the Church, a more fundamental aspect of gender equality touches importantly on the Pope's homilies on climate change, environmental degradation, and stewardship of the planet. The issue of contraception and family planning have environmental consequences.
Climate change is not separate from gender equality, female rights, family stability, and human poverty. Concern about human agency as an aspect of climate change collides with the Church's dogmatic blind spot about sex that continues to express itself in rigid opposition to contraception. The logic is there. Francis has ignored it.
Climate change is not separate from gender equality, female rights, family stability, and human poverty. Concern about human agency as an aspect of climate change collides with the Church's dogmatic blind spot about sex that continues to express itself in rigid opposition to contraception. The logic is there. Francis has ignored it.
9
What is it about being a priest requires you to have a penis? Since grade school, the argument I've always heard is "Jesus was a man, therefore, only men can be priests." By that poor logic, if Jesus was born a woman, only women would be priests? I doubt it.
7
Too bad people are brainwashed by religious institutions. This causes a lot of suffering in people. And it is all so useless. Women who divorce are in enough turmoil already. And if they belong to a religious institution they are persecuted because some male representative of a male deity says they are bad for wanting a divorce. Which just causes more suffering. This is absurd, but the grip of religious brainwashing is very powerful, and all these men in positions of authority in organized religion know very well how to keep people from thinking for themselves. Just keep repeating the same things over and over, like the refusal to acknowledge that women are equal to men. It seems pathological, but I guess that's what misogyny is all about. All this pain inflicted on women in this world has to stop.
10
I am surprised that the coverage Pope is getting, it feels like it is early 20th century and not the 21st. Aren't we supposed to be less influenced by the religion, at least in the Western World, by now.
Can't wait to have the NYT without Pope in its headlines.
Can't wait to have the NYT without Pope in its headlines.
4
Here you go again. By its very nature the Catholic Church established by Christ himself on Peter as his Vicar with full vested powers is not to be ultimately led by polls and consensus. Christ himself said his Church would remain to the end of time. So guidance through his successive Vicars with full vested powers is to remain the chosen method to the end of time. In effect the Church is guided by Christ himself acting through his Vicar at each point of time with full powers. It is Christ himself who is guiding and having the last word, not a polling consensus. Similarly, in the Sacrament of Holy Orders Christ himself acts in and through the priest in the Holy Eucharist and in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. So, these are not matters to be decided by polls, consensus or opinions. Christ himself decided these matters and continues to act himself through his Vicar and through the priests in the sacrifice of the Eucharist and in pardoning sins. The issue is settled. Settled.
2
Yes, this is a major issue, and yes, he's thus far on the wrong side of it.
But he's been pope for two and a half years. He's been right on with everything else.
Cut him some slack, especially given the fact that A) he has shown himself to be concerned about it, and B) he (like our president) has somewhat limited room to do all he stands for.
The criticism outlined in this editorial is hyperbolic, and the anecdote about the tchotchke sellers outside the campus is silly and way-overblown, and a bit malignant in its purpose to support M. Dowd's argument that the pope (who has nothing to do with the sellers) is a hypocrite.
But he's been pope for two and a half years. He's been right on with everything else.
Cut him some slack, especially given the fact that A) he has shown himself to be concerned about it, and B) he (like our president) has somewhat limited room to do all he stands for.
The criticism outlined in this editorial is hyperbolic, and the anecdote about the tchotchke sellers outside the campus is silly and way-overblown, and a bit malignant in its purpose to support M. Dowd's argument that the pope (who has nothing to do with the sellers) is a hypocrite.
3
Thank you, Maureen Dowd, for bringing up an issue I understood in theory, but having been raised by heathens who disdained institutional religion, never experienced as a member of the Catholic church or any other. So, while I skew liberal on social issues, I have never had to struggle as some of my friends have with matters of conscience that conflicted with any patriarchal hierarchy outside of secular environments. Perhaps that's why my first thought after reading your excellent column was, why is it particularly of late but in regard to Catholicism throughout history that so many of us assume or even prefer to listen to the counsel of people with the least experience in the matters they are "pontificating" about? It's a phenomenon that extends way beyond matters of church to include Dick Cheney rabble rousing for perpetual war, Tea Party newbies in congress reacting to the realities of governance with infantile elan and candidates for POTUS like Trump, Fiorina and Carson describing goals that might make sense if they were capturing the throne of a small principality of like minded constituents.
Do we imagine that inexperience can be automatically conflated with objectivity? There's nothing wrong with appreciating the perspective of a fresh eye, but its right to question that person's authority, as well as his or her actual experience outside the job. As Dowd points out, Pope Francis has limits when it comes to modernity, a vast universe, women confined to their place.
Do we imagine that inexperience can be automatically conflated with objectivity? There's nothing wrong with appreciating the perspective of a fresh eye, but its right to question that person's authority, as well as his or her actual experience outside the job. As Dowd points out, Pope Francis has limits when it comes to modernity, a vast universe, women confined to their place.
2
Men wrote the Bible, both the Old Testament and the New Testament. In these Bible stories, men created the character of God as an all-powerful man. Men (like all authors) wrote about what they knew -- themselves and their times. God is not depicted as a genderless being - God is a man. Where do women fit into these stories? Where men prefer women to be -- subservient, lower caste, solely baby makers, quiet possessions of their men, and if not any of those traits, then women must be evil -- sinners and temptresses. Even Mary had to be a virgin because virginity makes a woman a child -- someone to be taught and who should obey. I don't think the Catholic Church is ready to rewrite the Bible, and that's to be expected, but until the Catholic Church acknowledges that men wrote the Bible for themselves, and we must rethink the Bible's depiction of women, there will be no place for women in the Catholic Church. Women do not leave the Church because they are Godless; we leave because the Church was not founded on gender equality, and has not changed what is for men a very good deal, but what is for women, a truly bad deal.
13
Once again, the corporate media goes gaga over words and images, and obscures actual deeds. CNN talking heads were sickeningly effusive over every moment and aspect of the Pope's visit, as if God himself were riding in that vehicle through Central Park. The issues raised in this column by Maureen Dowd didn't appear to be on the minds of the hordes of screaming women and girls crammed together in massive lines and crowds, literally waiting for hours on end to see the Pope for, what, 5 seconds, as he passed by? The excitement was real, but so is the galactic hypocrisy of the Church, and Francis' "cool" quotient is no different than John XXIII or John Paul II in their early papacies. When he's back home at the Vatican, how much will have really changed? Will decades of sex abuse scandal be washed away by his short visit? Somehow, I don't think so. To paraphrase Will Shakespeare, "It was a tale told by cool, telegenic Pope with a warm smile, full of pomp and circumstance, bright costumes, lights and music, hundreds of male acolytes, women seated on the sidelines and generally invisible, the whole thing signifying not much".
4
One wonders about the outcry about women and their role in the Catholic Church. It is in some ways valid but also an insult to the many nuns who serve in responsible positions in the Church (I had two hospital administrators in my class at Michigan study for their Masters in Public Health) and those who accept their roles as mothers as a blessing.
But it is interesting how the only issues that seems to catch the attention of the media is about women and gays. Again, legitimate points to be made, but are these two negatives being highlighted to detract from his messages about social justice, our wasteful economic system, or threats to the environment.
I think so because those who hold the reins of power and determine what the New York Times or Maureen Dowd writes about are really not concerned by the plight of women or gays but the retention of the power threatened by a charismatic Pope.
Frankly, I see the focus on gays and women as a way to wound the Pope where he is most vulnerable, because the guy is a real threat.
Finally, the issues of gays present irreconcilable differences for the Church and them, but I think the great majority of Catholic women are not offended by the current positions of the Church.
At the same time, I think they would welcome a change in the issue of birth control, which is the Church's real Achilles heal. Most Catholic women simply ignore Church teaching but I think they would welcome the opportunity to fall in line with its teachings.
But it is interesting how the only issues that seems to catch the attention of the media is about women and gays. Again, legitimate points to be made, but are these two negatives being highlighted to detract from his messages about social justice, our wasteful economic system, or threats to the environment.
I think so because those who hold the reins of power and determine what the New York Times or Maureen Dowd writes about are really not concerned by the plight of women or gays but the retention of the power threatened by a charismatic Pope.
Frankly, I see the focus on gays and women as a way to wound the Pope where he is most vulnerable, because the guy is a real threat.
Finally, the issues of gays present irreconcilable differences for the Church and them, but I think the great majority of Catholic women are not offended by the current positions of the Church.
At the same time, I think they would welcome a change in the issue of birth control, which is the Church's real Achilles heal. Most Catholic women simply ignore Church teaching but I think they would welcome the opportunity to fall in line with its teachings.
2
Pope Francis is a humanitarian who speaks off script (which I love about him) and his focus is love, compassion and world unity as well as caring for the planet so it sustains our grandchildren and great grandchildren and so on. He is against apartheid, genocide and war profiteering and I deeply admire him for that. He would like to see walls come down, including the huge ugly ones in Israel, and see Israeli and Palestinians as free and equal throughout the whole land. He denounced the genocide of Rohingya and the death penalty. Do I agree on everything he says? A person would be hard pressed to do that with anyone and be genuine. So, I get your drift but still, I greatly respect this Pope!
7
The church asks for humility from both the men and the women in its ranks. And humility is exactly what seems to be lacking from most of the demands for a female priesthood.
The irony here is that the same people who see the priesthood as a way to get their voices heard, or to prove their capacity to wield authority, are definitely not qualified to be priests, on precisely those grounds.
I am not sure whether women are called to the priesthood, but I am very sure that if a woman IS called, her claim to the role will be based on performing the will of God, not her own personal rights or what is due to her.
A valid argument for female priests is not that women deserve to be priests, because this is a selfish claim for their own benefit. No one deserves the priesthood, and it is not a right. A valid argument COULD BE that the general church-going public needs female priests, in order to come into closer communion with God.
Whether this need actually exists or not is a matter for further examination, but this argument at least has the merit of providing a potentially valid reason for a female priesthood.
The irony here is that the same people who see the priesthood as a way to get their voices heard, or to prove their capacity to wield authority, are definitely not qualified to be priests, on precisely those grounds.
I am not sure whether women are called to the priesthood, but I am very sure that if a woman IS called, her claim to the role will be based on performing the will of God, not her own personal rights or what is due to her.
A valid argument for female priests is not that women deserve to be priests, because this is a selfish claim for their own benefit. No one deserves the priesthood, and it is not a right. A valid argument COULD BE that the general church-going public needs female priests, in order to come into closer communion with God.
Whether this need actually exists or not is a matter for further examination, but this argument at least has the merit of providing a potentially valid reason for a female priesthood.
Put Francis in context of the history of organizations. All clubs are started by a few men with an Alpha male. The first decision of the club is who to exclude, and that is certainly women. Then they create rules that make other boys humiliate themselves in order to gain acceptance. That assures that future members go through the same humiliation to gain a place. Lasting clubs create an ideology. All ideologies (religious, political, cultural) require a cult following subservient to the past. For a god to be created, that person gains a fictional leadership to be referenced, even if the references of the current organization are in complete contradiction of the invented god. And so for christians they have their Jesus just as the GOP has their Reagan. The actions of those gods are soon put aside for the desired theology. It doesn't matter if the actions of a Jesus or a Reagan were in opposition to what the new club members want espouse. The cult members can shout louder and longer and with more fervor than those in opposition.
Francis is the newest club leader but is burdened by the history of the club and its power structure, and by his ability to affect the actions of the club only in the short term. Those in power, the Curia and the Cardinals/Bishops, don't mind the popularity of a leader as long as he does not affect the power of the existing structure, even if a few of them may have to be sacrificed for the greater good of the power structure.
Lessons learned.
Francis is the newest club leader but is burdened by the history of the club and its power structure, and by his ability to affect the actions of the club only in the short term. Those in power, the Curia and the Cardinals/Bishops, don't mind the popularity of a leader as long as he does not affect the power of the existing structure, even if a few of them may have to be sacrificed for the greater good of the power structure.
Lessons learned.
4
God is good and wise. God gave us the power of freedom to choose similar to the secular freedoms found in the constitution. Everyone has the power to say yes or no to God. There is a Heaven for those who follow the word of God. Those that fail to follow the goodness of God live in a state of confusion. There is darkness for those who wish to do as they wish. Atheists say they do not believe in the existence of God nor in the existence of Satan. Atheists are asked how they are able to discern between decent and indecent, between moral and immoral, and between right and wrong when raising a family and little children. Atheists are asked if they depend on the supreme court and man’s laws to provide those answers. Atheists are asked if their parents and families taught them right from wrong. Atheists are asked if their past generations of family histories were founded in Christianity, the Bible, church and God. Their answer is I believe in no one, I am who I am, I answer to no one, and I do what I want to do.
Blessed are those who do not see yet believe. To those who believe in His name: who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
In the end as Jesus was crucified Jesus said, “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” And among believers He lives forever. These words will only have meaning to Christians, but not to atheists and agnostics who support indecent and immoral supreme court rulings.
Blessed are those who do not see yet believe. To those who believe in His name: who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
In the end as Jesus was crucified Jesus said, “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” And among believers He lives forever. These words will only have meaning to Christians, but not to atheists and agnostics who support indecent and immoral supreme court rulings.
1
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you have been everything before...secular, atheist, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, animist, humanist...everything. each of us. Over and over again.
1
Is someone who believes in women's equality an Atheist by definition?
Do good Catholics and other religiously observant people never do evil? Do Atheists never do good?
Do good Catholics and other religiously observant people never do evil? Do Atheists never do good?
His Holiness Pope Francis has focused on human rights, human dignity, and humanity’s shared obligation to one another. He has referenced portions of the Declaration of Independence and two champions of the Declaration of Independence – Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr. (sometimes naming them and other times quoting them). The founders of the United States fully understood Pope Francis’s description of the hardships caused by unfettered capitalism and markets without real limits. America’s founders rejected the notion that the few who possessed extraordinary wealth should rule. Rather, our founders and early members of We the People entered into an agreement among all Americans that all of our lives, fortunes and sacred honor should serve each member (and all members) of We the People. In other words, all Americans have already agreed with Pope Francis: “Money must serve, not rule!” The Agreement among We the People already mandates that wealth must serve to fulfill the human rights of all Americans and that the few who have extraordinary wealth shall not rule the many. The Declaration of Independence evidences all Americans’ agreement to Human Rights Capitalism. See https://goo.gl/AgAc2a From the lectern used by Lincoln, Pope Francis’ final message is for America to lead as it once did by honoring its original Agreement. In other words, he has challenged America to once again serve as a world leader based upon our Declaration of Independence.
1
I can't argue against the writer's points on women's standing in the church. It is, as they say, what it is. However, I don't think it is right to dismiss Francis simply because he has failed to sweep away centuries of doctrine in one swift wave of the hand.
This Pope is a humble man who probably doesn't feel that he can do what the writer would like him to do. What he can do, however, is tackle an issue that he feels he can influence and so he speaks for the downtrodden. He stands up to the forces of Capitalism. He is a man of our time.
Look around. Bernie Sanders, despite the scorn of this paper, is making headlines. He is appealing to people in the same way that this Pope does. In the UK, Jeremy Corbyn is making the same arguments. People are sick and tired of being treated as pawns in the one per cent's plans for ever more money. People are sick of the mistreatment of others for financial gain and this Pope is at the vanguard of this movement. He deserves some credit for this.
If anything, women are lacking behind on this. Where are the women shouting from the roof tops about social inequality? It is about time more women became politicians - vocal politicians who push against the status quo. We don't need more Hillary Clintons, we need some more Elizabeth Warrens and female Bernies. Meanwhile, we have the Pope and I think that is something.
This Pope is a humble man who probably doesn't feel that he can do what the writer would like him to do. What he can do, however, is tackle an issue that he feels he can influence and so he speaks for the downtrodden. He stands up to the forces of Capitalism. He is a man of our time.
Look around. Bernie Sanders, despite the scorn of this paper, is making headlines. He is appealing to people in the same way that this Pope does. In the UK, Jeremy Corbyn is making the same arguments. People are sick and tired of being treated as pawns in the one per cent's plans for ever more money. People are sick of the mistreatment of others for financial gain and this Pope is at the vanguard of this movement. He deserves some credit for this.
If anything, women are lacking behind on this. Where are the women shouting from the roof tops about social inequality? It is about time more women became politicians - vocal politicians who push against the status quo. We don't need more Hillary Clintons, we need some more Elizabeth Warrens and female Bernies. Meanwhile, we have the Pope and I think that is something.
2
Thank you, Maureen Dowd. Add to that what the Republican Party is trying to do to Planned Parenthood and Hillary Clinton, plus the NY Times putting Bill Clinton's measured history of attacks on his wife on page 23, and you have a good picture of the continuing fear of women.
Men, you might want to join us in saving the planet.
Men, you might want to join us in saving the planet.
2
My first react to Dowd's article was "Can't she say anything nice?", but once I read it the reality is that the Papacy and the Catholic church is archaic and just because he says a few things that the general population was starved to hear from someone who command a huge audience doesn't change the fact that women are second class citizens, gays are not welcome and the church clings to male dominated theology.
6
Thank you Maureen Dowd for one intelligent and balanced portrait of the latest Chauncy Gardner Pope (Is Francis a Perilous Pope?) dispatched by a wounded PR spinning Roman Catholic cult to stem the bleeding. And boy do you have your work cut out for you.
1
This all needs to be said, and it's part of your job to say it. But I still can't help but rejoice that Francis has brought the papacy out of the middle ages and into the 19th century.
2
Maureen, have you or anyone else asked Jesus about why he hasn't made Mary Magdalene his closest Apostle, or why Jesus did not take the form of female body, or both ?
And what could we learn from Adam and Eve, who were endowed with G-D's intellect but still made two separate errors of judgement ?
Because regarding the issues you're concerned about you'd need to revisit the first principles of faith, perhaps like "....all men and women (rather should read *boys and girls*) are created equal". Does this make sense ?
And what could we learn from Adam and Eve, who were endowed with G-D's intellect but still made two separate errors of judgement ?
Because regarding the issues you're concerned about you'd need to revisit the first principles of faith, perhaps like "....all men and women (rather should read *boys and girls*) are created equal". Does this make sense ?
1
Yes, but Maureen, your thinking does not work for this century either.
3
The Pope seems to be very concerned about the environment,but he seems to be against any efforts to control the population explosion especially in the third world, nor does he give women the chance to control the size of their families and perhaps pursue other avenues in addition to motherhood.
If this Pope is the force of liberalism, how many centuries will the world have to wait till one arrives that gets it.
If this Pope is the force of liberalism, how many centuries will the world have to wait till one arrives that gets it.
3
In the midst of a frenzy of adulation, Pope Francis keeps asking everyone to pray for him. He knows he's not perfect, he knows he's struggling. I'm hoping that he will one day extend his love of justice to fully include women in the life of the church. As a Catholic feminist, I'm not giving up on him. I believe that his heart and mind and soul are committed to helping the wretched to the earth. Our time will come.
2
Francis, if he followed John XXIII, may have been the Pope to lead the Church into the 18th century. But, alas, we will have to settle for an advancement into the 16th.
Baby steps?? It's a little late for baby steps. We need a revolution to make the Church into the 1st century Church that Jesus left behind. A Church for the people, not obsessed with sex, gender, edifices and money.
Baby steps?? It's a little late for baby steps. We need a revolution to make the Church into the 1st century Church that Jesus left behind. A Church for the people, not obsessed with sex, gender, edifices and money.
2
Thank you Maureen for this dynamic reminder about the structure of the institution that is the Catholic Church ... the Vatican ... the Boy's Club that it is.
It makes me wonder what would happen if EVERY WOMAN who is a member of the Catholic Church would simply boycott Mass for a significant period of time, perhaps for a decade. These women have populated the parishes by foregoing birth control, have raised their children to attend catechism classes, have kept the faith and taught the faith to their families. My guess: the foundations of the church would crumble. Perhaps THEN, the Pope and his cronies would notice the powerful creative force that resides in the gender that is FEMALE.
It makes me wonder what would happen if EVERY WOMAN who is a member of the Catholic Church would simply boycott Mass for a significant period of time, perhaps for a decade. These women have populated the parishes by foregoing birth control, have raised their children to attend catechism classes, have kept the faith and taught the faith to their families. My guess: the foundations of the church would crumble. Perhaps THEN, the Pope and his cronies would notice the powerful creative force that resides in the gender that is FEMALE.
4
Maureen, even God took six days to build the universe. Give the Pope some time.
4
not in human days...
1
Just what does Ms. Dowd expect from a medieval theological institution? Liberal thought? It just proves again that almost by definition, religions in the 21st century need to rely on muddled thinking by themselves and others in order to survive in the face of overwhelming evidence that the central tenet of their ideology, the existence of an omnipotent and benevolent orderer of the universe, is false. All other illogic follows from the denial of that evidence.
1
Why does the Times gush on about this nonsense? How about printing the REALITY of the church's history and how it created its myths?
2
The quandary that Francis faces and that Ms. Dowd does not address is that the Church believes that it is a "revealed religion," which means that, when Christ said something it has to be followed. Had Christ lived today, he might very well have included women among his Apostles and also given a mandate to one or more of those women to organize the Church and lead it through history. However, Christ did not do that. Christ did something different, which, as noted, Ms. Dowd does not address. Perhaps, in time, there may be a way to interpret Christ's statements as to who should lead his Church to allow women into that role, but it will not be easy.
Too bad Jesus can't defend himself against the church, against the bible.
1
Thanks for taking this pope to task. I am so tired of people lionizing him just for saying a bunch of feel-good things. Here is a person who has real power and influence, who really could change the world, but does not take the actions that would have the biggest impact. Just one example: how many of the world's problems can be traced back to the problem of overpopulation? How might this pope contribute in a very real and meaningful way to diminishing this problem?
1
The Pope's disrespect of women is wrapped up in the antiquated position on contraceptives, an all male celebit clergy which lacks understanding of women issues and still blocks women from ordination. This Pope and the church he leads hasn't joined the 21st century much less the 19th. All it has done is adopted a PR stance worthy of the most vile of products which give false hope.
1
The Pope is excellent at preaching generalities and deficient at dealing with individualities.
He has to be commended for his concern about families, the environment, protection of children against abusers, gays, others, but when it comes time to free individuals from doctrine to pursue their own lives, he puts the breaks.
He is practicing his Jesuit inspired argumentative principle. Debates are excellent intellectual exercises. Where you go after that exercise allows you to find your truth is something else. I should know. I spent ten years of my life educated by Jesuits.
During my Junior High School year, my ninth in the institution, a senior philosophy priest teacher gave us a long winded rundown of the Spanish Inquisition and then opened the floor for argumentation. When I used the opportunity to condemn that shameful period of the Church he went ballistic and asked me to see him after class in his office where he berated me for my opinion and threatened to throw me out of the school-after nine years there!- for my position. End of argument.
The Pied Piper of Hamelin was a great salesman of whatever he wanted to sell to his followers, but not a salesman of whatever people needed and wanted to buy. There is a difference there.
He has to be commended for his concern about families, the environment, protection of children against abusers, gays, others, but when it comes time to free individuals from doctrine to pursue their own lives, he puts the breaks.
He is practicing his Jesuit inspired argumentative principle. Debates are excellent intellectual exercises. Where you go after that exercise allows you to find your truth is something else. I should know. I spent ten years of my life educated by Jesuits.
During my Junior High School year, my ninth in the institution, a senior philosophy priest teacher gave us a long winded rundown of the Spanish Inquisition and then opened the floor for argumentation. When I used the opportunity to condemn that shameful period of the Church he went ballistic and asked me to see him after class in his office where he berated me for my opinion and threatened to throw me out of the school-after nine years there!- for my position. End of argument.
The Pied Piper of Hamelin was a great salesman of whatever he wanted to sell to his followers, but not a salesman of whatever people needed and wanted to buy. There is a difference there.
1
Maureen Dowd has written a useful and accurate column. As a knee jerk defense from a non-Catholic, he is doing a lot of "heavy lifting" that will take time. The two centuries angle is also fitting in that he is in some ways compressing 200 years of reform into a short time frame. For a 78 year old man to do this while battling many entrenched interests including man within a less than perfect entrenched set of bureaucratic interests makes his efforts more impressive. Indeed, it makes what he is doing especially impressive.
2
I haven't yet read all 472 comments, but it's fascinating how many of those urging patience for the continuing exclusion of women are men. It's almost entirely women who are pointing out things like, if he tolerated the exclusion of non-whites from the clergy, everyone would be condemning him. The apologists may have valid points (e.g., Pope Francis has to go slowly in order to avoid backlash), but I wonder how many would be able to stomach writing those lengthy comments if they were women.
7
Why does this country have to criticize this Pope? He moved through our country, spoke, enlightened, blessed in a schedule at 78 years old that many much younger could not keep up with.
Why can't we just be grateful of his visit here. I think the insults I have read in the Times is disgusting including this one.
If women have to think they can get "ahead" in this world, religion or otherwise, by insulting Pope Francis instead of listening to his messages which might pertain to all, it's time to grow up. Accept what you can and move on. This Pope nor any other one will ever have women taking a pastoral role in the Mass. Be thankful for the pace he is keeping - in trying to keep peace in the world, in trying to make headway for poverty stricken, in trying to provide health care for all, climate and environment engagement.....Face it - this country can use all the encouragement in those areas we can get. Let's be thankful and stop the criticism. He's doing the best he can within his limitations. And yes, he does have limitations. Right or wrong in some people's minds, one of his duties is to uphold the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Many of us do not agree with those doctrines, but then look for the good of this man and enhance it.
Why can't we just be grateful of his visit here. I think the insults I have read in the Times is disgusting including this one.
If women have to think they can get "ahead" in this world, religion or otherwise, by insulting Pope Francis instead of listening to his messages which might pertain to all, it's time to grow up. Accept what you can and move on. This Pope nor any other one will ever have women taking a pastoral role in the Mass. Be thankful for the pace he is keeping - in trying to keep peace in the world, in trying to make headway for poverty stricken, in trying to provide health care for all, climate and environment engagement.....Face it - this country can use all the encouragement in those areas we can get. Let's be thankful and stop the criticism. He's doing the best he can within his limitations. And yes, he does have limitations. Right or wrong in some people's minds, one of his duties is to uphold the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Many of us do not agree with those doctrines, but then look for the good of this man and enhance it.
3
Gotta give Maureen Doud points for telling the other side of the story. But, she fails to recognize that change takes time, especially in the oldest institution in the world. If, in five years, Pope Francis fails to match his comforting words with substantive actions then I'll admit Ms. Doud's pessimism was justified. But I'm betting on Pope Francis.
3
It takes people like Maureen Dowd pushing the Church for change to make it change over time. No squeaky wheels......no grease!
1
So Pope Francis is not perfect. Who would have thought it.
I do not believe ordaining women is the answer for the Catholic church. In fact the Church of England has had major declines in its membership in spite of the fact that it has ordained women as priests and bishops, has a married clergy, does not condemn contraception and welcomes the divorced. What is the use of a "liberal" doctrine and leadership roles for women if it fails to inspire people?
4
As an Episcopalian I say thank God we made all those changes. From the outside while I deeply respect the RC Church, it does look to me to be in its own time warp not having made such obvious reforms.
2
Yes, you did all the "right" things and the Episcopalian Church is very up to date in all its policies. However it is the essence of Religion to present the reality of transcendence -- not the latest social/political trends.
You learn a lot reading the NY Times, some things are disappointing. For example I learned that Jeb Bush was nowhere near as bright as his brother George. Next that the most enlightened Pope in hundreds of years is not perfect. Great, but he has a blind spot regarding the spiritual equality between men and women.
Pope Francis is a 78 year old man who lived most of his life in socially conservative South America and educated in a church that was rabidly anti woman. His mission is the elimination of war and poverty. If he is successful in that crusade it will benefit women as well as men more than allowing female priests which may not survive his papacy.
We should not let the perfect be the enemy of the near perfect or the excellent. If Pope Francis climbs a tall mountain reaching heights never before reached, before he dies, he should not be criticized for falling short of the summit. The Catholic Church has been the enemy of social progress for a long time and it is hard for it to change its direction in a single papacy of a 78 year old Pope.
Pope Francis is a 78 year old man who lived most of his life in socially conservative South America and educated in a church that was rabidly anti woman. His mission is the elimination of war and poverty. If he is successful in that crusade it will benefit women as well as men more than allowing female priests which may not survive his papacy.
We should not let the perfect be the enemy of the near perfect or the excellent. If Pope Francis climbs a tall mountain reaching heights never before reached, before he dies, he should not be criticized for falling short of the summit. The Catholic Church has been the enemy of social progress for a long time and it is hard for it to change its direction in a single papacy of a 78 year old Pope.
4
Here we go with the resentment again with all those references to women as the lower case by Dowd. Ms. Dowd, if women want so badly to be treated equally to men, then why don't they establish a religion of their own? Men established religions for social order, power, and also to know God. Females did not figure prominently in this scheme and looking at the contribution of women to original religion thought and religious speculation and doctrine, they are neither very capable of it, nor are they interested in it. Stop arguing for equality in everything and take a look instead at feminism, which does not stop for a moment to think about men. So if men were selfish in establishing a religion for their own ends and women are pushing feminism for their own ends, get acquainted with reality and realize that its the way human nature is.
Having been trained for 12 years as a missionary priest in Holland and having served in Ghana for about half a decade in the sixties I evolved out of the Church in the 1970s mainly because of its population policies. Pursuing a doctoral degree in international development at Columbia University and seeing the role of unrestrained population trends supported by the Church, I notified Rome and my missionary order of my pending connubial marriage with a Maryknoll sister and our intent to continue our missionary work without a family. Rome never responded to this notification.
It is not only women’s position in the Church that is problematic for Pope Francis, it is the notion that marriage is still foremost an institution for procreation or “fruitfulness”.
Though I responded positively to the Pope’s address to Congress and the United Nations, I became angry with his and the Vatican’s position and manipulation during the 2015 World Meeting of Families which was started by conservative John Paull II in 1997.
I applaud Francis’’s push for urgent climate change action and suggested to him in a 2-page letter that he consider the feasibility of a transformed international monetary system that is based on the monetary standard of a specific tonnage of CO2e per person. I referred him to my 2012 book “The Tierra Solution: Resolving the climate crisis through monetary transformation” which presents its conceptual, institutional, ethical and strategic dimensions.
It is not only women’s position in the Church that is problematic for Pope Francis, it is the notion that marriage is still foremost an institution for procreation or “fruitfulness”.
Though I responded positively to the Pope’s address to Congress and the United Nations, I became angry with his and the Vatican’s position and manipulation during the 2015 World Meeting of Families which was started by conservative John Paull II in 1997.
I applaud Francis’’s push for urgent climate change action and suggested to him in a 2-page letter that he consider the feasibility of a transformed international monetary system that is based on the monetary standard of a specific tonnage of CO2e per person. I referred him to my 2012 book “The Tierra Solution: Resolving the climate crisis through monetary transformation” which presents its conceptual, institutional, ethical and strategic dimensions.
1
Maureen Dowd, What a surprise when I opened my print issue of the NYT this morning to reread your column and note the different title than the one for the digital on-line version. For the print version,
the title "Is Francis a Perilous Pope?"
As noted in my post yesterday I agree with your point about the importance of equity for women in the Roman Catholic Church but personally see this Pope as being much more progressive than 'Perfect for the !9th Century' but grant that you make a case for the backward position of excluding women to equal opportunity in the clerical ranks.
But a Perilous Pope? Perhaps an editorial liberty but Pope Francis in his visit to America has shown what are true perils are if ignored, such as climate change, denial of human rights et al.
Maybe hyperbole for sale of reader attention, but Pope Francis is not perilous.
the title "Is Francis a Perilous Pope?"
As noted in my post yesterday I agree with your point about the importance of equity for women in the Roman Catholic Church but personally see this Pope as being much more progressive than 'Perfect for the !9th Century' but grant that you make a case for the backward position of excluding women to equal opportunity in the clerical ranks.
But a Perilous Pope? Perhaps an editorial liberty but Pope Francis in his visit to America has shown what are true perils are if ignored, such as climate change, denial of human rights et al.
Maybe hyperbole for sale of reader attention, but Pope Francis is not perilous.
1
While I agree with Ms. Dowd, I'd like to know just how she thinks Pope Francis should go about moving the immovable force that is, The Catholic Church". She puts forth no ideas ....
1
19th Century popes didn't decry man-made climate change.
1
if only they had that wisdom in the 19th century, we would not have human induced climate change woes, alas.
1
Churches, religions, are prone to splitting, schism, they call it. The question gets to be,"How much divisive reform can be brokered by the pope without provoking schism?"
Francis is constrained by the bureaucracy of the Church, which cannot be pushed aside with the back of his hand. He has replaced many of those who oppose his changes, but there are still many holding office. He cannot function as an autocrat.
Francis is constrained by the bureaucracy of the Church, which cannot be pushed aside with the back of his hand. He has replaced many of those who oppose his changes, but there are still many holding office. He cannot function as an autocrat.
1
No pope will ever succeed in getting the Church out of the Ancient Testament. Jesus' preaching of love has no other utility than fuelling propaganda for an institution which loves to hate what does not conform to its three millennia old doctrine and moral.
If Mz. Dowd were ever a Roman Catholic, and not simply a political commentor, she might have learned that God it was that assigned roles to men and women. Our creator did not make us interchangeable, and so the one true church recognizes what God has wrought. Jesus who is God chose men, even the weak Peter who denied Jesus three times, as the apostles, the first bishops. The Catholic Church is the One true church not because it is made up of perfect and only holy men, but because it is made up of sinners. If God Himself made His church of sinners, by sinners, and for sinners, why would we sinners think we should tell God what roles women must have access to, and which ones they should not. What is, for the moment, politically correct, has always been the 'Reforms' sought by the world, the vile sinful world throughout the 2000 years of the Catholic Church. Pope Francis knows this is simply the vileness of the world trying, yet again, to corrupt the will of God. If Mz. Dowd were a Catholic, she'd know this, even though she is being paid by this atheist newspaper.
1
Like Ms Dowd, I am the product of a formal Catholic education and a strong Catholic upbringing. I am awed by the Pope's willingness to 'open the windows' and speak of the issues troubling the church and the world. I anxiously await his effecting the changes needed with respect to divorce,gay marriage,pedophelia,abortion,contraception, women's rights in the church and world. Will he be able to bring real change? Or will this just be refreshing rhetoric? Let's pray for him.
Thank you, Ms. Dowd, for having the courage to write about women in the Catholic Church and the Pope's apparent endorsement of the continuous gender inequality in the corporation. I can only hope for a change in my lifetime,
2
Yeah, a special guy but he's still the CEO of Catholicism, Inc. He still has to view the world through the Catholic moral prism- anti-women, anti-science, anti-gay (except for closeting gay and pedophile priests). And then have the chutzpah to cloak this all in moral piety. Yuck. At least he's way better than his predecessors (faint praise) and he's leaving today. It feels like he's been here for three weeks. Maureen- thanks for your intelligent analysis.
1
1. We are baptized as "priest, prophet, and king/ruler." So all of us, women and men, are already "priests". So go ahead be a priest; preach. What you are really complaining about is being a big "p" Priest. Where does this big "p" Priest-envy come from? What is it really about?
2. Being a big "p" Priest is not like being a doctor, lawyer, president, general or butcher: professions which anyone, woman or man, may choose. The 12 didn't choose to become "P"rises. They didn't even have any idea that that was going to happen at the last supper. They were totally clueless. To harken back earlier: You did not choose me, I chose you." Those clueless guys were not chosen to be powerful, they were chosen to be foot washers. They weren't chosen to wear red slippers, or robes, or beanies or fancy hats. (Anybody can wear those - men or women; go ahead wear them.) They were chosen to repeat a specific ritual in Jesus' memory -- to oversee the change of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Not all men, just some got chosen.
3. Mary also got chosen to be a mother. Not all, just 1 got chosen. Maybe another will get chosen & this is how Jesus will come again. Who knows?
4. If only we could be in charge. We could have men be the child bearers and clueless women could be chosen to be the servant ritual remembers;maybe both genders could have be chosen to have the capacity to do both things. Alas, evolution has no aim.
5. When men get pregnant, women will be priests.
2. Being a big "p" Priest is not like being a doctor, lawyer, president, general or butcher: professions which anyone, woman or man, may choose. The 12 didn't choose to become "P"rises. They didn't even have any idea that that was going to happen at the last supper. They were totally clueless. To harken back earlier: You did not choose me, I chose you." Those clueless guys were not chosen to be powerful, they were chosen to be foot washers. They weren't chosen to wear red slippers, or robes, or beanies or fancy hats. (Anybody can wear those - men or women; go ahead wear them.) They were chosen to repeat a specific ritual in Jesus' memory -- to oversee the change of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Not all men, just some got chosen.
3. Mary also got chosen to be a mother. Not all, just 1 got chosen. Maybe another will get chosen & this is how Jesus will come again. Who knows?
4. If only we could be in charge. We could have men be the child bearers and clueless women could be chosen to be the servant ritual remembers;maybe both genders could have be chosen to have the capacity to do both things. Alas, evolution has no aim.
5. When men get pregnant, women will be priests.
If this Pope is not a leader for today, then maybe religions don't leaders, just opinion polls & ballot boxes; true democracies. Much like the way the Country is heading.
The voice of the 'concerned people' i.e. those that vote faithfully & religiously (ha!) e.g. state governments, is ignored for majority rulings by a group of nine of the most segregated people on the planet. Maybe they should decide all matters for the churches -- wait, they do!
The voice of the 'concerned people' i.e. those that vote faithfully & religiously (ha!) e.g. state governments, is ignored for majority rulings by a group of nine of the most segregated people on the planet. Maybe they should decide all matters for the churches -- wait, they do!
In many ways Francis is an expert at talking the talk. He meets with sex abuse victims in apparent sympathy; meanwhile Bernard Cardinal Law, former Archbishop of Boston, languishes in the Vatican. Cardinal Law was about to be arrested in Boston for his sheltering of sex abusing priests when he hopped on a plane for Rome in response to a tip-off. If Francis were a man of action, wouldn't he allow Law's extradition?
5
Miraculously, there is a person on the planet with over one billion devoted followers and any number of four billion listeners who are hearing and embracing his activist message of love for humanity: for the poor, for immigrants, and for all us -women, men, and children threatened by extinction due to global warming.
The well-fed, well-educated feminist Catholic women, such as Ms. Dowd, who disparage Pope Francis' inspiring call to compassion on behalf of all humanity because they want equal ceremonial rights and power within their church, need to first put their energy into improving the lives of the destitute masses of people, such as the women slaving in Bangladesh factories; and to saving the planet so that they and their daughters will survive long enough to see the day when they can serve Mass.
Thank God for Pope Francis.
Signed: A secular humanist
The well-fed, well-educated feminist Catholic women, such as Ms. Dowd, who disparage Pope Francis' inspiring call to compassion on behalf of all humanity because they want equal ceremonial rights and power within their church, need to first put their energy into improving the lives of the destitute masses of people, such as the women slaving in Bangladesh factories; and to saving the planet so that they and their daughters will survive long enough to see the day when they can serve Mass.
Thank God for Pope Francis.
Signed: A secular humanist
3
How refreshing to see Mo once again air her utter lack of comprehension of spiritual issues of her own alleged Faith. Why is it logical and modern to see the Church as just another human grouping, such as a political party. or a local community get-together? Why is it sophisticated and urban to apply the same political measure to what is, at least in its own self-understanding, a transcendent reality beyond politics, especially the politics of "if I don't get exactly what I want" I am being discriminated against?
Why doesn't Ms. Dowd turn her attention to real issues facing women, like domestic violence? Like a culture that sees a child in the womb as just as disposable as an empty Starbucks' cup?
Why doesn't Ms. Dowd turn her attention to real issues facing women, like domestic violence? Like a culture that sees a child in the womb as just as disposable as an empty Starbucks' cup?
3
It is incredible how the writer, while trying to protect the rightful position of women in society and particularly in church (and by rightful I mean equal), is blinded to her own prejudices. I disagree with the hypocritical stereotype of Latin american being a "macho" culture. If the Pope acts like a "macho" it is more likely because he is a priest -and a Pope!!!- than because of his latin american background. I am from Argentina and I have been living in the US for over 10 years. I must say that, while in the surface things look much more egalitarian here, I have never heard in Argentina the kind of derogative things about women I hear in the US coming from white men when there are no women around...
The Catholic Church is the ultimate all male country club. We will have a female president before there ever be a female Pope in charge of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church may change its position on a lot of other of positions but will never allow women priests or treat women as equals within their walls. The glass ceiling in the Catholic Church is gilded by gold.
The church is so much more then who is or isn't allowed to celebrate the mass, we all tend to look thru the lens of our present day culture. Feminism today is still in historical perspective a new experiment that has not stood the test of time for total validation. Glad you are still Catholic enough Maureen to attend the popes mass, a Catholic can have many disappointments with the humanness of the church and yet still see the value for us all in the truth of their fundamental teachings and the healing powers of Gods gift of the sacraments.
1
Applause and military salute to Ms. Dowd for her thoughtful article.
However, there are limits to how far can Pope deviate from the dogmas of Roman Catholicism. Further departures would strengthen the movement of sedevacantism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism) of those who believe that the Popes, beginning with Paul VI, are heretics and illegitimate usurpers of the Holy See.
If I were a practicing christian, I would be an anti-Trinitarianist like Sir Isaac Newton and believe in the supremacy of God the Father. My model of the Trinity -- assuring the readers that I do not mock any faith and only make a model as a natural scientist -- is an upright triangle, with God the Father at the upper apex and the Son and the Holy Spirit at the two lower apices. I leave it to the theologians to decide, whether the latter two are equipotent and on a strictly horizontal line or the line is tilted according to the relative power of each.
However, there are limits to how far can Pope deviate from the dogmas of Roman Catholicism. Further departures would strengthen the movement of sedevacantism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism) of those who believe that the Popes, beginning with Paul VI, are heretics and illegitimate usurpers of the Holy See.
If I were a practicing christian, I would be an anti-Trinitarianist like Sir Isaac Newton and believe in the supremacy of God the Father. My model of the Trinity -- assuring the readers that I do not mock any faith and only make a model as a natural scientist -- is an upright triangle, with God the Father at the upper apex and the Son and the Holy Spirit at the two lower apices. I leave it to the theologians to decide, whether the latter two are equipotent and on a strictly horizontal line or the line is tilted according to the relative power of each.
1
I agree with Maureen. HOWEVER, she’s looking at what Pope Francis has said and done so far through the prism of a 21st-century, American, Internet, twitter, immediate-action-& reaction point of view. Francis has been pope for only two-and-a-half years.
Francis may be a 'perfect 19th century Pope.', In working to move the Catholic Church away from its hierarchical attitude and return its priests and bishops – and pope – back to the sense that they should be pastors, and not potentates, and should focus on what Jesus said, he’s trying to undo the damage of more than a millennium. The damage, if you will, of well more than nine centuries.
Plus, the Catholic Church is a world-wide institution, much bigger in some other parts of the world, such as Latin America, than it is here. When it comes to women, more will be affected by any changes regarding divorce, birth control, abortion, than by allowing women into the priesthood – even though it may take that to make those other changes happen.
It’s important to consider another comment here: that Francis must avoid doing too much too soon. Avoid being a Gorbachev, who tries to do too much, only to be succeeded by a Putin. Or a John XXIII, only to be succeeded by a Paul VI.
Let’s give Francis a little more time. And hope that God (or fate) does, too.
Francis may be a 'perfect 19th century Pope.', In working to move the Catholic Church away from its hierarchical attitude and return its priests and bishops – and pope – back to the sense that they should be pastors, and not potentates, and should focus on what Jesus said, he’s trying to undo the damage of more than a millennium. The damage, if you will, of well more than nine centuries.
Plus, the Catholic Church is a world-wide institution, much bigger in some other parts of the world, such as Latin America, than it is here. When it comes to women, more will be affected by any changes regarding divorce, birth control, abortion, than by allowing women into the priesthood – even though it may take that to make those other changes happen.
It’s important to consider another comment here: that Francis must avoid doing too much too soon. Avoid being a Gorbachev, who tries to do too much, only to be succeeded by a Putin. Or a John XXIII, only to be succeeded by a Paul VI.
Let’s give Francis a little more time. And hope that God (or fate) does, too.
2
Francis simply and eloquently raised the conscience of those of us who listened to what he said-not of what he left unsaid. So far in his papacy we have heard through his words that god does love women, gays, people of other faiths, immigrants, prisoners, women who have had abortions, divorced Catholics, the homeless and he even loves Americans.
As being raised Catholic yourself, you must realize the role that women play in the church - it's not about the priests wearing the white robes getting the good seats on the stage. Ask you own mom, perhaps she can explain it better then the biographer that you have quoted here.
As being raised Catholic yourself, you must realize the role that women play in the church - it's not about the priests wearing the white robes getting the good seats on the stage. Ask you own mom, perhaps she can explain it better then the biographer that you have quoted here.
2
Maureen, don't rain on the parade! You cover Congress which can't decide on much of anything, however minor. How can you reasonably expect a Pope, in office for only two years, to immediately change basic dogma to prove he's up to date? The Church is woefully short of new priests and nuns because today's young people are not willing to live a life of celibacy.
5
No, it's because wacky Church dogma requires celibacy which is contrary to human nature. Accordingly a significant minority of those who become priests have some odd sexual proclivities.
It is not that the Catholic church considers women to be less, it is that we all have our place in society and in the family. The Biblical model is that the mother and father are equal partners in the family, operating in their own spheres of influence and responsibility. And that the father is the head of the household. You can't have two chiefs. In no other organization of human beings do you have two chief executives. It is kind of funny that modern sensibilities spout the foolish idea that both marriage partners are chief executives. It really doesn't work very well despite the PC orthodoxy that requires such a silly concept.
Anyway, in the view of the church, the model that God created is the most effective way to raise healthy and well adjusted children. Which is the whole point of the family. And that the family is the basic and most important unit of society. Without healthy and well functioning families, society doesn't really work. As we have clearly seen with the rise of no fault divorce, single parent families etc. Which of course leads to maladjusted children and the host of social ills that follow.
You can stomp you feet all you want, but the Biblical model is simply the distilled wisdom of 10000 years of human experience on how best to formulate a well functioning family and society. We have seen the result of our rejection of that wisdom,. It is not pretty. It is silly to require the Pope to reject the teachings of that 10000 years of wisdom
Anyway, in the view of the church, the model that God created is the most effective way to raise healthy and well adjusted children. Which is the whole point of the family. And that the family is the basic and most important unit of society. Without healthy and well functioning families, society doesn't really work. As we have clearly seen with the rise of no fault divorce, single parent families etc. Which of course leads to maladjusted children and the host of social ills that follow.
You can stomp you feet all you want, but the Biblical model is simply the distilled wisdom of 10000 years of human experience on how best to formulate a well functioning family and society. We have seen the result of our rejection of that wisdom,. It is not pretty. It is silly to require the Pope to reject the teachings of that 10000 years of wisdom
2
Being elected to head up a staid organization like the Roman Catholic Church doesn't give you much leeway to change course. Francis is the product of a church that transitions very slowly. The arch of change for the Vatican is very long. One has to wonder what the next pope will be like.
2
"Transitions very slowly?" And it only took 350 years to acknowledge that the earth moves around the sun ( instead of vice versa). Augurs more of the cutting edge ideas we can expect from this bunch.
Maureen, I love you ... but you are like a little child in the back seat of the car with an endless serenade of "are we there yet?" You have done the same with President Obama for years, ignoring the progress in spite of the huge barricades erected by the Congress, because he is a thinker, an intelligent man who takes on each issue with much consideration as to how his decisions will play out in the future of each and every American. There is no rushing the solutions to most problems, just a methodical plodding that may seem irritating to the press, for whom instant gratification is the new norm. The Pope is very much the same; so many great new roads opened up in such a short time by this man who, for once, is a Pope that is a true "priest", instead of the CEO of a huge corporation. I believe that Pope Francis will move toward a deliberate integration of women into the fabric of the church, but this, like all seminal change, requires time. You may want to consider that the tenets of your church are what they are and are thousands of years old. Adjustments must be made if the church is to remain relevant (and this really goes for ALL churches, not just Catholicism), but shooting the most recent and most appropriate messenger because the change is not happening soon enough to please you is not helpful. Relax, keep up an optimistic drumbeat, and you will arrive at your destination sooner than you think, my child.
4
At the risk of being churlish, the big liberal ideas that Pope Francis has put forth have been proclaimed by the Episcopal Church, in which I am a priest, and mainline Protestant churches, for many decades. But we don't dismiss women from ordained ministry, and most of our churches are now open and welcoming to gays and lesbians, both as ordained people and in blessing their commitments to each other. So really, the Roman Catholic Church still has a lot of catching up to do and from where I sit, I don't understand all of the hoopla that this Pope is willing to have his church submit to the mores of the 1940s.
3
Celibacy should be repealed. Priests should be permitted to marry. That will move the church to giving women influence in the Catholic church.
1
What a shame that you can't see that so early in his papacy that Francis is laying the groundwork to take the church from the 14th to the 22nd century.
2
"In practice, he is a man of a certain age from a macho, Latin American cultural background who has limited understanding of the women in the modern world."
I see. None of the previous, European popes envisaged a greater role for women in the Church, and no one ever thought of attributing it to some supposed backwardness in Europe. But when Francis allows the status quo to continue, it has to be because he's from Latin America. Because we know how those Hispanics are, amirite?
It's funny that, in an article where you take to the Pope to task for not being progressive enough on women, you give your implicit endorsement to this racist line of thought.
I see. None of the previous, European popes envisaged a greater role for women in the Church, and no one ever thought of attributing it to some supposed backwardness in Europe. But when Francis allows the status quo to continue, it has to be because he's from Latin America. Because we know how those Hispanics are, amirite?
It's funny that, in an article where you take to the Pope to task for not being progressive enough on women, you give your implicit endorsement to this racist line of thought.
3
Why would a woman want to have anything to do with an organization
that treats them the way the Catholic Church treats them?
that treats them the way the Catholic Church treats them?
1
We like this pope because of his humility and his obvious devotion to the most important and basic tenet of Jesus' message: love thy neighbor and take care of the sick and the poor."
We all know that, in the US, materialism will always triumph over charity and generosity. But Pope Francis gives us the hope that, with his advocacy for the latter, maybe it will more of fair fight.
We all know that, in the US, materialism will always triumph over charity and generosity. But Pope Francis gives us the hope that, with his advocacy for the latter, maybe it will more of fair fight.
3
I agree. He acted as a counter to the phonies who call themselves Christians while forcibly enacting the least christian of behaviors. He let the air out of their hypocritical balloons so once they gather some helium I expect the anti-Catholic blow back to be intense..but not enough to knock down the wall of moral charity he built to protect the vulnerable. We needed someone like him right now - Bernie Sanders is just not enough.
1
Thank you Ms Dowd for being a voice of reason in this madness about the Pope. The media hail everything he says as some sort of a miracle and don't seem to be bother by the fact that he has done nothing, in particular about the sexual abuse scandal, besides making Pope John Paul II a saint. Another area where Pope Francis seems not have no clue is domestic violence, which he keeps describing as "flying plates" after which peace should be restored. Can anybody please explain the reality to him?
3
I agree with you and your very clear writing here. I don't always agree with your columns, especially when they are snarky. However, here you are very succinct.
Totally agree with you about women and the Catholic Church. In a nutshell, the comment from Paul Vallely in your piece seems to say it best...a man arising out of a macho, Latin American cultural background who has limited understanding of women in the modern world.
It seems we are all carrying around our childhood and cultural blinders and it is always interesting how to work with peeling off the layers of onion skin over our basic sanity. The Pope is doing great work with values and problems in the modern world. Hopefully, the real issue of women will open up and be addressed and changed.
Totally agree with you about women and the Catholic Church. In a nutshell, the comment from Paul Vallely in your piece seems to say it best...a man arising out of a macho, Latin American cultural background who has limited understanding of women in the modern world.
It seems we are all carrying around our childhood and cultural blinders and it is always interesting how to work with peeling off the layers of onion skin over our basic sanity. The Pope is doing great work with values and problems in the modern world. Hopefully, the real issue of women will open up and be addressed and changed.
If the Pope is 19th century, then how would you characterize the people to whom he was speaking in the halls of the American Congress?
I agree that the views of the Pope and the Catholic church on women (and related issues) are backward. The sad irony is that he remains ahead of our time by comparison. cf. the Planned Parenthood debacle, with a woman — Fiorina — at the forefront.
I agree that the views of the Pope and the Catholic church on women (and related issues) are backward. The sad irony is that he remains ahead of our time by comparison. cf. the Planned Parenthood debacle, with a woman — Fiorina — at the forefront.
3
Ah, Maureen....you continue to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Maybe your glass is always half-empty?
Who would have thought there would EVER be a leader of the Catholic church who could acknowledge goodness in people whose perspectives were contrary to those of the church (gay married couples, pro-choice advocates, atheists)? I would feel like humanity had taken a great step forward if people who profess any religion had the magnanimous hearts of this man (and I am an atheist) and treated their fellow man with half the dignity, respect, and ...yes...love.
No, he has not addressed the equality of women nor given them an equal place under "God", but baby steps, Maureen, lead to running marathons.
Who would have thought there would EVER be a leader of the Catholic church who could acknowledge goodness in people whose perspectives were contrary to those of the church (gay married couples, pro-choice advocates, atheists)? I would feel like humanity had taken a great step forward if people who profess any religion had the magnanimous hearts of this man (and I am an atheist) and treated their fellow man with half the dignity, respect, and ...yes...love.
No, he has not addressed the equality of women nor given them an equal place under "God", but baby steps, Maureen, lead to running marathons.
3
Gender gap is least of it, but thanks for speaking up indirectly for the millions of Americans who still value a clear separation of church and state. I have never seen so many politicians fall all over each other for the head of a church, which somehow has been deemed a state, too. I laud the Pope for speaking out on a host of issues and look forward to more walking the talk from this church. But why are national, state and local taxpayer funds to the tune of untold millions being used to provide him and his entourage protection and transportation? As media laid out the laudatory, wall-to-wall 24/7 fawning coverage for this Pope's visit, slicing and dicing him on one issue after another in the most political of terms, where were the reporters asking the more fundamental questions: why is the public paying for this dog and pony show? Can leaders of other religions now expect the same red carpet? Even if the nation's coffers were in better shape, this kind of expenditure would be outlandish. But at a time when so many people remain out of work and even more hovering at or below poverty life and so many cities hover close to bankruptcy, for us to be footing the bill for a religious leader on this scale--even as he goes on pontificating about the poor--shows just how desperate we are for real, authentic leadership that hasn't come from the public or private sectors in decades.
1
The Catholic Church is not a social club that adapts to an ever changing world. It is shaped by 200 years of tradition and dogma. Dowd ignores the fact that women have roles in the church, historically ingrained and very important roles. The fact that the role of priest is restricted to men does not diminish their contribution nor their importance to the Catholic Church.
On the whole there is nothing good I can say about institutionalized religions in general - Jewish, Christian, Islam or otherwise. But within some of these institutions certain people stand out - one of them is Francis. He likely has the Vatican in a state of panic as a compassionate Franciscan with a message to the world to stop the insane obsession with wealth and human indifference to its own - after all the catholic church achieved all of its wealth off the backs of the poor and I think everyone knows that. But - if there was ever a pontiff who had a chance in hell to reform any of its corruptions, it is probably this pope. I can't imagine that he will reform his church overnight - they might fire him before he goes too far. But at least he is able to deliver some of the message of the teacher/prophet of his church without looking like a total hypocrite. That counts for him in my book.
3
Absolving women who have had an abortion is at least one step, and it uses the framework of the institution. I suppose Pope Francis could have announced that women could and should and would become priests. Only a handful of Western countries have empowered their women as much as, in a few cases more than, the United States. The overall population of the Catholic Church, globally, is not quite the same.
Rome wasn't unbuilt in a day.
i am sorry Ms. Dowd is so disappointed.
Rome wasn't unbuilt in a day.
i am sorry Ms. Dowd is so disappointed.
1
I agree with Ms Dowd's sentiments, but I think its worth pointing out that for as arcane and dusty an instution as the Catholic Church is, he's made quite a bit of progress just in the last couple of years.
Afterall, Rome wasn't built in a day.
Afterall, Rome wasn't built in a day.
2
All that is necessary is that we love God with our whole heart, our whole mind and our neighbor as ourselves. Some religions, mainly Western religions, are more focused on obeying the first clause while the Eastern philosophies/religions are primarily focused on implementing the second clause as a way to inner joy and love or to the God we seek. Whether Francis or Benedict, both saints, resolve everything as we would like is irrelevant to our journey toward Wisdom and God. This journey, as Chardin says, leads us all, ALL, to the Omega Point.
2
Barack Obama got the Nobel prize because he was not the preppie cowboy from Texas. Francis basks in the glow of not being the scold from Poland or the rottweiler from Germany.
3
Well, yes, and thanks for saying so.
But the poor don't choose to be poor and could really use a boost right now from a global bully pulpit. Women can choose not to be Catholic or to join other religions that discriminate against them - at least they can for now in this country.
But the poor don't choose to be poor and could really use a boost right now from a global bully pulpit. Women can choose not to be Catholic or to join other religions that discriminate against them - at least they can for now in this country.
1
What do you expect -- miracles?
For an institution that has been mired in the Middle Ages, coming up to the 19th century is real progress. Although I agree with the position of equal stature for women, what do you really think would happen if he moved to such a radical position so quickly -- give him time.
For an institution that has been mired in the Middle Ages, coming up to the 19th century is real progress. Although I agree with the position of equal stature for women, what do you really think would happen if he moved to such a radical position so quickly -- give him time.
3
It seems that Ms Dowd, while praising the Pope for his interest in bringing the Catholic Church back to the teachings of Jesus, ignores the pitfalls that he faces. He is a Liberal voice in a sea of Conservatism. To expect him to single handedly overturn years of policy in all facets of the operation of his church, seems to be too great an expectation. I have no doubt that, in years to come, women will be welcomed to the inner circle of the Catholic Church, but change, a little at a time, is better than no change.
3
We all understand that change takes time; but 2,000 years!
5
I am a "café" Catholic, from a deeply devout family. I am as critical of the Church as an organization as any. However, I have witnessed through many experiences that the Church is not really defined by upper echelons of the bureaucracy but by the those that attend Mass on Sundays (not really me), by the legions of lay and religious that run soup kitchens, and other works of outreach, and support for folks in need, frequently collaborating with other religious organizations. This Pope speaks to these individuals.
Part of this leadership styles arises from his work in Argentina; local priests all over Latin America work within a different understanding of parish work. To simplify it, whereas Catholicism in the US is intellectual, Catholicism in Latin America is emotional, the difference between thinking and feeling. Ms. Dowd would do well to learn something about Latin America before she quotes anyone about the region. Indeed, machismo exists in Latin America, but is no more pervasive than it is here (many stats support this).
I for one appreciate the Pope's reminder that we all bear responsibility to pursue the common good.
Part of this leadership styles arises from his work in Argentina; local priests all over Latin America work within a different understanding of parish work. To simplify it, whereas Catholicism in the US is intellectual, Catholicism in Latin America is emotional, the difference between thinking and feeling. Ms. Dowd would do well to learn something about Latin America before she quotes anyone about the region. Indeed, machismo exists in Latin America, but is no more pervasive than it is here (many stats support this).
I for one appreciate the Pope's reminder that we all bear responsibility to pursue the common good.
4
Well done Ms. Dowd. You did an excellent job highlighting Pope Francis' balanced approach to the gospels.
It is good to see a Pope emphasis the need to comfort for the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable. Moreover, Pope Francis seems to be reining up the American Catholic Church. The American Catholic Church has become a propaganda arm of the Republican Party's war on women and the poor.
I hope he will be successful in his efforts to balance the teachings of the Catholic Church laws. However, from the reactions of many Republicans and Republican propagandists to his history-making speech to a joint session of Congress, I think Pope Francis has a tough row to hoe. Perhaps he will have better influence on those Americans who think corporations are people and money is speech. One can only hope.
It is good to see a Pope emphasis the need to comfort for the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable. Moreover, Pope Francis seems to be reining up the American Catholic Church. The American Catholic Church has become a propaganda arm of the Republican Party's war on women and the poor.
I hope he will be successful in his efforts to balance the teachings of the Catholic Church laws. However, from the reactions of many Republicans and Republican propagandists to his history-making speech to a joint session of Congress, I think Pope Francis has a tough row to hoe. Perhaps he will have better influence on those Americans who think corporations are people and money is speech. One can only hope.
5
Way to go, Maureen.
2
Papa Francisco is making huge wave in the anachronistic broken Catholic Church. These wave may not perfect, he outrageously acting Christ like to the dismay of the crop of power seeking law and order, guilt creating Cardinals. Francisco possibly understands that the steps to bring the church into out present time will require more effort and time. I celibate his courage to bring the church from the days of the inquisition to the 19th century.
2
Well if the many problems are to be fixed, then maybe a certain D Trump should come to the rescue ... Pope Donald does have a certain ring ....
In order for religions (all of them) to stay in business they have to adhere to their respective beliefs otherwise they'll lose all of their customers...the sheep that blindly swallow all this stuff and perpetuate the primal tribalism that's been around as long as men and women have existed. This Pope has a few progressive ideas so take what you can get and keep fighting the fight.
2
Could it be that the US Marines are more progressive regarding the role of women in the Service than the Church is on the participation of women in ministry?
2
While I personally agree with Ms. Dowd's point (I too would like to see the church open up a bit more) I also understand that the Pope is not a politician and the Vatican is not a popularly elected government. It is not the church's duty or mission to conform to popular opinion. It's duty and mission is to uphold the word of God (make of that what you will but that is how the church sees it). We set up ourselves up for great disappointment when we look to the church to rubber stamp the conventional wisdom of the day. The church does not answer to its flock like a government should its citizens. It answers to God whether you believe or not.
1
This pope, any pope, heads up the vastest male supremacist organization in history. Hasn't changed nor will it. Oddly, millions of otherwise sensible women think this arrangement to be hunky dory. Tells you quite a lot about co-dependency.
True enough. It will take more than one pope to change the church. But it is still just a church. People can choose to leave it. It still just canonized a spearhead of California Indian genocide. It still has a sick relationship to women. Francis is a good pope, but he's still just a pope and it is still just a church with (sorry) some pretty wild assumptions about existence. Let's keep our expectations in perspective. If he has made it harder for the GOP to wreck havoc on the world he has done everyone a great service. I'll say thanks for that.
3
I'm not Catholic, so its a little easier to accept Francis as purely a spiritual leader without the baggage you have. Sure the hype this week has been over-the-top, but I honestly think it shows the thirst and hunger Americans have for something diametrically different from the usual 'Huckabee anti-Christian, anti-humanity, anti-Golden Rule, pro-greed hucksterism', that evil parody of Christian and ethical principles that are constantly trucked out on talk radio, newspapers, and the campaign trail. We want to believe we can be better, we want to believe that Christianity does not mean sinking to the lowest common level, rife with exclusion and downright mean-ness. Francis tells us we can, and for a fleeting instant, with a lifting of heart and eyes, we believe him. For an instant, our eyes are cleared, and grime comes into focus. For a fleeting instant, we truly want to be better ourselves. Then next week, we'll start watching Trump again, and forget all about it. We are, after all, Americans.
4
In his remarks this morning, Pope Francis told parents of a 30-something son that if they want their son, to get married, stop ironing his shirts.
2
Ms Dowd, such hubris! You should have been around to prod JFK when he was dragging his feet with all that civil rights stuff. 'Let's get going Jack!'
And oh what a helper you could have been to Lincoln as he ever so slowly emancipated the slaves.
Unfortunately these leaders' jobs are a bit more complex than banging out a few pages of copy and sending it off to the intern to spellcheck.
And oh what a helper you could have been to Lincoln as he ever so slowly emancipated the slaves.
Unfortunately these leaders' jobs are a bit more complex than banging out a few pages of copy and sending it off to the intern to spellcheck.
3
Ms. Dowd: If Pope Francis has dragged the Roman Catholic Church into the 19th century, that's about one to two centuries of progress. Give the man credit for his accomplishments so far. Sometimes changing tone can precede changing actions. Also: since being a male is a stringent requirement for serving as a Catholic priest, I am just glad the clergy is not parading around with little decorated sacks hanging outside their vestments, to hold the precious male member, which is apparently the seat of all that is sacred in Roman Catholicism. Not the heart, not the soul, not the intelligence, capacity and desire to serve, strictly the pen ... well, you get my drift.
3
I think it all depends on what happens with the next Pope. Francis is an elderly man who has completely reversed the direction of the Church from a calcified institution more about dogma and defensiveness than about the Gospel, bringing it to life again. Because any redemption of the church itself had seemed so hopeless, this Pope who is making real and dramatic moves toward modernity (though perhaps not as radical as some of us would like) has been greeted warmly and joyfully, especially in this country where too often those who label themselves Christians support mostly bigotry and selfishness and ignorance.
And it would also be fair, I think, to point out that not everyone is loving it--or Francis.
The question then becomes, will the next election build on the new kindness and inclusion and openness and return to the values of Christ? Or will there be a counter movement that throws back up every wall Francis has been trying to take down?
And it would also be fair, I think, to point out that not everyone is loving it--or Francis.
The question then becomes, will the next election build on the new kindness and inclusion and openness and return to the values of Christ? Or will there be a counter movement that throws back up every wall Francis has been trying to take down?
2
Among the members of the Godhead, only the God-Man, Jesus Christ is a priest. All this talk about making women priests ignores the fact that neither God the Holy Spirit nor even God the Father are priests. So women are in good company there. There is a divine design to all this, and those who want to make women priests while ignoring the exclusion of members of the Godhead from the priesthood do not understand what the priesthood is.
The nice thing about religion, at least here in the corrupt and backward United States, is that if you don't agree with it you can either ignore it or work within it for change. Either way, it's a lot like our political system. What isn't productive is destructive criticism from without.
1
it is disingenuous or with a very deaf ear for anyone to use the word disingenuous with this Pope.
Francis is on the path of reconciliation not reformation.
thank you for your work.
Francis is on the path of reconciliation not reformation.
thank you for your work.
1
In what way is Catholicism different from Greek and Nordic Mythology? The "One God" doctrine is out the window; now we have three deities, plus a bunch of saints... Is it in principle very different from worshipping Zeus, Odin and their entourage of demi gods?
Religion, and not just Western religion, seems to say more about human nature and need than about the thing itself. Is it not all superstition? Wishful thinking?
What is essential (to me) is the philosophy, morals, ethics...(whether it's rooted in religion or not) how we treat each other...that matter. Can't we have high standards without the superstition and people worship? Aiming always to do the good and kind thing is a reward in itself, true?
Religion, and not just Western religion, seems to say more about human nature and need than about the thing itself. Is it not all superstition? Wishful thinking?
What is essential (to me) is the philosophy, morals, ethics...(whether it's rooted in religion or not) how we treat each other...that matter. Can't we have high standards without the superstition and people worship? Aiming always to do the good and kind thing is a reward in itself, true?
3
Superstition is the hook (like a carnival barker). And with religion you can sell tickets to a show you don't have to even put on (the afterlife). Quite a racquet.
1
I just wonder if his trip to America was calculated to raise up goodwill for the Papacy as groundwork to make major changes down the road? He's pretty smart and It's a lot easier to make changes amongst friends, especially sea changes such as the Church needs. And it will take time.
1
This is a fantastic column! Hear,hear!
2
I was only able to see a few snippets of the Pope's visit on TV but I did see Aretha Franklin screaming a few tunes while the Pope sat in the background doing a pretty fair imitation of Peter Sellers in "Being There". Bizarre, I'd say.
2
The Holy Father has acknowledged that “Mary is more important than the apostles.”
Anybody who says this has absolutely no understanding of Scripture, period.
Anybody who says this has absolutely no understanding of Scripture, period.
Thank you Maureen for holding the torch for women. What type of benevolent institution would seemingly believe that women and men are equal in the eyes of God but cannot be given equal participation within the institution that supports those beliefs? Would the Pope believe that women should have equal pay; equal legal rights; equal access to 'heaven'; but somehow, must play a subordinate role to men within the Catholic Church? Is the distaste for women so strong within the Church that this Pope, if so inclined, would lose all support if he declared the right of women to participate equally to men? How could any woman, pondering the future of herself and her daughter's, wish to be part of an institution where she is not fully accepted as an equal? Perhaps there are women who prefer male domination but as more women are finding the need to support themselves and their children, as we ponder what happens to women under other religions such as promoted by ISIS, and when we consider that it took women 50 years of hard lobbying to gain our right to vote in this country, I believe that we should no longer tolerate and support any institutions that promote the subjugation of women.
3
“In practice, he is a man of a certain age from a macho, Latin American cultural background who has limited understanding of the women in the modern world...
How is that for stereotyping? Pope Francis brings a rich, multi-faceted personality and it defies logic to pin on him such patently wrong, and unfair, one-track labels.
How is that for stereotyping? Pope Francis brings a rich, multi-faceted personality and it defies logic to pin on him such patently wrong, and unfair, one-track labels.
2
Why on earth would any self-respecting woman want to belong to an organization run by a bunch of misogynists who run around in pantomime dress thinking they are somehow special because they have a penis - ignoring for the moment, church-promoted sexual abuse of children?
19th Century? How about Pre-historic?
19th Century? How about Pre-historic?
5
@Matt Guest "nauseating acclaim?" Seriously? You found the attention on this amazing Pope...nauseating? Sad that this inspirational moment in US history leaves you so bitter. Change is a process. This Pope is no ones ideologue, he is a trailblazer, but he blazes trails in his own manner, with grace and discretion. You and Ms. Dowd are missing out.
1
This Pope is clearly an improvement from his predecessor, BUT the bar was set quite low by the pedophile protector Pope Benedict.
6
Dear Ms. Dowd,
Pope Francis is, indeed, a good front man for the scandal ridden, hide bound in masculinity, revenue generating machine called the Catholic Church.
Otherwise, he just proves the old bumper sticker is still correct, "Organized religions are just cults with more members."
Anyone for a 'Francis Bobble Head?'
Pope Francis is, indeed, a good front man for the scandal ridden, hide bound in masculinity, revenue generating machine called the Catholic Church.
Otherwise, he just proves the old bumper sticker is still correct, "Organized religions are just cults with more members."
Anyone for a 'Francis Bobble Head?'
4
The number of non practicing Catholics in the U.S. equals the number who are still practicing and attending Mass. Reminds me of the Ambrose Bierce quote :
"Faith (n.) Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge ,of things without parallel. "
"Faith (n.) Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge ,of things without parallel. "
4
Maureen, I TOTALLY agree with everything you say here - thank you for this eloquent piece.
4
As a private organization, and a religious one at that, the rules are the rules. If one doesn't like the rules, then exit the organization, walk next door into an organization with your same philosophy and sign up. Why do you think there exist dozens of different types of churches? I presume the Episcopal church would be a nice fit in this case. That's not to say that one can't ask for change or voice an opinion, but if it bothers you that much find a church compatible with your beliefs.
1
Once in a while someone comes along who speaks in a manner that impels me to stop and listen. I was brought up a Unitarian - but I stopped and listened and was touched by Pope Francis. I felt relief, somehow. The message may not be "perfect" there may be things missing, but the general tone of the his message, one of conciliation, forgiveness and love; urging dialogue about our difference, rejecting righteousness and black and white thinking, has been sadly missing in our divisive country. Humans are always looking for the perfect guru, the perfect speaker of truth only to be disappointed when someone who measures up well and inspires thousands, demonstrates some blindspots or a point of view that is hardwired because of his or her own history or personal belief. We tend to ignore the bigger impact, the change in the tide, the movement towards a deeper understanding and instead, focus on the things that we don't agree with. Change happens slowly, and this is movement in the right direction.
18
Well said. Thank you.
Dowd doesn't want to acknowledge that all churches are in the business of tradition-keeping. To expect from their leaders measures that revoke in one stroke long-held positions is not plausible. So, expect the Church to move at low speed. But as Galileo said; "E pur si muove", and yet it moves, as he defended his vision of the planetary system. And it may be Francis himself who in a few years will take a decision that will put in motion an unstoppable process. He has already done a lot in a short time.
As for Junipero Serra, he was not an agent of the Spanish Empire. It is an absurd statement. He was a missionary who was following the injunction of Jesus to spread the word, to evangelize. Whatever we may now think about missions, it is not the position of the various denominations that still practice it.
Lastly, it is clear that canonization has nothing to do with sanctity, in spite of the pseudo miracles that are its fig-leaf, but it is a recognition of the work down by those who promote the Church. They are like champions of the Church, rather than their saints. The last true saint, and maybe the only one, was St. Francis of Assisi.
As for Junipero Serra, he was not an agent of the Spanish Empire. It is an absurd statement. He was a missionary who was following the injunction of Jesus to spread the word, to evangelize. Whatever we may now think about missions, it is not the position of the various denominations that still practice it.
Lastly, it is clear that canonization has nothing to do with sanctity, in spite of the pseudo miracles that are its fig-leaf, but it is a recognition of the work down by those who promote the Church. They are like champions of the Church, rather than their saints. The last true saint, and maybe the only one, was St. Francis of Assisi.
"As for Junipero Serra, he was not an agent of the Spanish Empire. It is an absurd statement. He was a missionary who was following the injunction of Jesus to spread the word, to evangelize."
Catholic missionaries were agents of the Spanish empire. At the same time as the "Catholic Monarchs," Ferdinand and Isabella, "purified" the Iberian peninsula by means of the Inquisition, their agents forced Catholicism onto all the conquered peoples of the New World. Converting to Catholicism was not voluntary; resistance led to horrific torture and death. The Spanish empire's conquest of the New World was part of the Inquisition.
Catholic missionaries were agents of the Spanish empire. At the same time as the "Catholic Monarchs," Ferdinand and Isabella, "purified" the Iberian peninsula by means of the Inquisition, their agents forced Catholicism onto all the conquered peoples of the New World. Converting to Catholicism was not voluntary; resistance led to horrific torture and death. The Spanish empire's conquest of the New World was part of the Inquisition.
1
workerbee. I am not here to defend colonialism of any shape or form or of any period, and certainly not any act of oppression. Whatever good or bad missionaries did, it was their conviction that it was their duty to evangelize. However, you don't seem to know how the Inquisition operated, so I will not take the time to respond to it. It also would help to know what the structure of the Spanish government was and its relation to the Church before making any statement.
I admire this pope for his obviously big heart, his concern for the poor, the environment, income inequality, and the evil side of capitalism. The moral questions won't change quickly, at least he extends forgiveness and understanding instead of outright condemnation to gays, divorcees, and women who have had abortions. I see him as the crack in the door to enlightenment within the church, but it will be up to subsequent generations of the church to fully open that door to embrace women as full members, to open the clergy to marriage, to accept gays for who they are, to allow members to plan their parenthood in the face of an overpopulated planet.
3
How refreshing to read a Maureen Dowd column that isn't yet another snarky attack on either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama. I thought that was all she could write about. Instead, it's a snarky attack on Pope Francis.
While not a Catholic I fully agree Ms. Dowd's points about the antediluvian dogma regarding women held by the RCC. As an outsider, it's obvious to me that changing the course of the RCC is like trying to turn a modern mega-cruise ship with a portable outboard motor. It may be possible but it's going to take a long, long time.
I commend Francis for what he HAS done: Extended the ecumenical path to other faiths and to Agnostics and Atheists ("..instead I ask for your good wishes"), taken on the Vatican Bank's corruption, put the RCC firmly against destroying our environment, reiterating the NEW idea (for Catholics) that the death penalty is a monstrosity, moving toward SOME reconciliation with women who have had an abortion, etc. (Think about it: A serial killer could confess, repent and get absolution, but a woman who has had an abortion could not. Until now). It's clear that many cardinals and bishops detest him both inside and outside the Vatican for upsetting their apple cart. Change context and Ms. Dowd sounds like the Tea Party in Congress.
While not a Catholic I fully agree Ms. Dowd's points about the antediluvian dogma regarding women held by the RCC. As an outsider, it's obvious to me that changing the course of the RCC is like trying to turn a modern mega-cruise ship with a portable outboard motor. It may be possible but it's going to take a long, long time.
I commend Francis for what he HAS done: Extended the ecumenical path to other faiths and to Agnostics and Atheists ("..instead I ask for your good wishes"), taken on the Vatican Bank's corruption, put the RCC firmly against destroying our environment, reiterating the NEW idea (for Catholics) that the death penalty is a monstrosity, moving toward SOME reconciliation with women who have had an abortion, etc. (Think about it: A serial killer could confess, repent and get absolution, but a woman who has had an abortion could not. Until now). It's clear that many cardinals and bishops detest him both inside and outside the Vatican for upsetting their apple cart. Change context and Ms. Dowd sounds like the Tea Party in Congress.
6
Ouch! The Church's ban on Father Jack McClure, punishment for his activism, resembles the Church's determined effort to eliminate Dignity/Los Angeles in the 80's. This organization, unifying the LGBT community, with more than 100 members, died at the hands of the Church. Such a victory would delight my Irish Catholic cousin, a bigot. In brief: the Church's antics lack merit. Francis, a Jesuit, rose from being a parish priest to being the archbishop in Buenos Aires in a short seven years, sounds O.K., but he provides no plan of action. It's just talk.
3
The fawning treatment of this Pope by the media is hard to take. Living near Philadelphia for the past two months has meant being barraged with stories about the Pope's visit and the security surrounding. There is little acknowledgment that his visit is basically meaningless to anyone who isn't Roman Catholic. He seems like a nice man who does recognize the threat that climate change is to the planet and it's population but unfortunately he represents a religion that refuses to treat women as equals, refuses to acknowledge that birth control is essential if we hope to make a dent in poverty and retard climate change, refuses to treat gay people as anything other than "sinners" and "disordered," and proclaims incessantly that it is the "one true religion" which is highly offensive to anyone who is not RC. The adoration and veneration shown to this ordinary mortal is truly disturbing because it's a cult of personality and refuses to look at what he truly represents as the head of the RC church. The fact that he "sainted" a missionary" who tortured and murdered Native Americans who refused to embrace Catholicism shows just how tone deaf and out of touch the RC church and it's leader are when by any other standard -- the new "saint" would be considered a monstrous mass murderer were he alive today. Francis may be a nice man personally but he represents a religion that is stifling and out of touch.
9
Maureen Dowd's article is tinged with righteous anger over the child abuse scandal. I understand this and was against the Catholic Church for years over it. However, I came to realize in my middle age that I was allowing my anger over those in the Church who were committing unconscionable sins to have power over me in terms of keeping me away from the communion of saints in the Church. In short, I was only hurting myself by punishing myself for the sins of others. When I received this conversion of a more positive outlook I was rewarded with advanced stage breast cancer. My career and my life fell apart and what is left in my life as she has been for centuries is the universal Church with me fully reconciled. I did not have a father growing up, but I really always had one. I just never realized it. Power in the Church is not limited by a fatherly priesthood, but rather a failure to embrace one's own courage, strength, and faith. Catholic women have been educated, built and administered schools and hospitals, and other charitable works for centuries - well ahead of the secular world - all the while being supported by the service of a fatherly priesthood who gave them the Sacraments needed to sustain them. On the political side of the coin, Jesus was not a liberal or a conservative, and neither are the popes. Pope Francis - a 19th century pope, a 9th century pope, a 99th century pope - a pope bound in eternity to Christ. Our eyes are open, but we do not see.
3
I think you missed the much greater challenge to the world re the pope's remarks on climate change, poverty, and unrest in places like the Middle East, all issues that he says he is concerned about.
One of the biggest causes of climate change is man made. And I am not talking about their use of fossil fuels, although that certainly is a problem. The much bigger problem is the number of humans that are born each year.
Unrest, poverty and climate change in the world is caused by overpopulation.
And yet the dear pope does NOTHING to address overpopulation. The earth can only sustain a certain number of people. The amount of flatus that people produce increases with each increase in population. Likewise, the amount of carbon dioxide that is exhaled is also increased with each increase in population. And with the birth of each additional child comes the need to destroy the natural elements that aid in the restoration of a normal balance. Trees help remove carbon dioxide. And finally, in addition to other things, poverty and unrest in parts of the world is caused by too many people and not enough resources.
The pope needs to discuss the problem of overpopulation and the use of birth control. And he needed to do it yesterday. This is THE most important issue.
One of the biggest causes of climate change is man made. And I am not talking about their use of fossil fuels, although that certainly is a problem. The much bigger problem is the number of humans that are born each year.
Unrest, poverty and climate change in the world is caused by overpopulation.
And yet the dear pope does NOTHING to address overpopulation. The earth can only sustain a certain number of people. The amount of flatus that people produce increases with each increase in population. Likewise, the amount of carbon dioxide that is exhaled is also increased with each increase in population. And with the birth of each additional child comes the need to destroy the natural elements that aid in the restoration of a normal balance. Trees help remove carbon dioxide. And finally, in addition to other things, poverty and unrest in parts of the world is caused by too many people and not enough resources.
The pope needs to discuss the problem of overpopulation and the use of birth control. And he needed to do it yesterday. This is THE most important issue.
3
Thank you for saying exactly what needs to be said. Keep saying it! Til the old boys get it!
7
Pope Francis seems to be a kind man with a good heart. Behind him loom two millennia of fraught religious history.
As a academic, I've read many of the texts that brought us scholasticism in the Middle Ages and I've studied the history of the Reformation and Renaissance. Anyone with a smidgen of history knows that Christianity has had its Crusades and its Inquisition and its wars between sects in the wake of Martin Luther. Yes, those wars were Europe's Sunni/Shia moment, every bit as tribal and vicious as what Islamic fundamentalism has brought us today.
America should never forget that the ideals of our country were wrought in the Enlightenment. Freedom of religion means you are free to believe whatever you want and I am free not to listen to you telling me what to believe.
For me, beyond the simple lessons that Jesus uttered, I cannot help seeing Catholicism as a paradox in which a man who believes that he cannot have sex tells a woman he believes she has a moral duty to get pregnant.
As a academic, I've read many of the texts that brought us scholasticism in the Middle Ages and I've studied the history of the Reformation and Renaissance. Anyone with a smidgen of history knows that Christianity has had its Crusades and its Inquisition and its wars between sects in the wake of Martin Luther. Yes, those wars were Europe's Sunni/Shia moment, every bit as tribal and vicious as what Islamic fundamentalism has brought us today.
America should never forget that the ideals of our country were wrought in the Enlightenment. Freedom of religion means you are free to believe whatever you want and I am free not to listen to you telling me what to believe.
For me, beyond the simple lessons that Jesus uttered, I cannot help seeing Catholicism as a paradox in which a man who believes that he cannot have sex tells a woman he believes she has a moral duty to get pregnant.
5
The church's power derives from its claim to authority based on a long tradition. Whenever significant changes in doctrine are made -- and they are made, the church is not, in fact, unchanging, they have to be done slowly to ensure that the church retains the same authority. After all, if Francis were to do the kind of U-turn that Ms. Dowd suggests, every successor afterwards could do a U-turn of their own. The church would lose any special claim to authority for any of its teachings which, presumably, could be changed from one day to the next. I don't know whether church teaching on issues like women's ordination, sexuality, marriage, and contraception will change in the next 10, 20, or 50 years, or how much of any change will be due to Francis. I do know that any change that occurs will have to occur by measured steps, including changes -- over time -- in the composition of the College of Cardinals, a shift in emphases that leads Catholic opinion and galvanizes support for change, and probably a series of incremental papal statements and hard-fought synods that shift the terrain and create a solid theological and historical grounding for change. So, we might, for example, see more roles and prominence for nuns and their work, without yet seeing women's priests; or language on marriage and family that tacitly accommodates non-traditional structures without doing so explicitly; or a lifting on the contraception ban, nearly done in the 60s. That makes more steps easier.
1
I have to agree with you. The nuns gathered around Francis' events looked like obseqious sister wives. The Church remains an anachronistic patriarchal cult despite the charismatic quality of this Pope.
16
Pope Francis is the Gorbachev of the Church. Are people expecting that he will erase 2000 years of dogma overnight?
We are not very realistic, are we?
We are not very realistic, are we?
2
This Pope has had his Warholian 15 minutes... and can now go back to being a tourist attraction in St. Peter's Square. The whole point of spiritualism is to provide us with a way to cope with being both conscious (to some degree) and mortal. He offers nothing in this regard... and is therefore irrelevant.
4
Hey, folks, it's the Roman Catholic church! And the pope is the head of it. This is not a church that accepts female priests (priestesses?), abortion, birth control, divorce, gays, or a married clergy. And when you think about it, not many other churches are much different. In fact, most religions (in general) are inherently conservative institutions, whether or not they are active in a political or social sense.
Some think the Pope's wonderful because he has taken a liberal stance with the ideas of redistribution of wealth and climate change/global warming. But Francis is no more liberal than Mike Huckabee when it comes to actual church doctrine. As a major world figure, however, Francis is inspiring, as any Pope ought to be, and I think that is something, that faith in the spiritual, something greater than ourselves, exists in this world of technology and secular humanism.
Some think the Pope's wonderful because he has taken a liberal stance with the ideas of redistribution of wealth and climate change/global warming. But Francis is no more liberal than Mike Huckabee when it comes to actual church doctrine. As a major world figure, however, Francis is inspiring, as any Pope ought to be, and I think that is something, that faith in the spiritual, something greater than ourselves, exists in this world of technology and secular humanism.
3
Maureen, how incredibly naive you are! Do you truly think the Pope can cure the ills of the church in one fell swoop? Nothing has shown how entrenched the old boys network is than the shift this Pope has taken. Be realistic, married clergy would be the first step, since it was a Catholic tradition centuries ago. Barrier methods of birth control would be the next (for the wives of those priests would not stand for no birth control). And from there so many of the rules of the church would fall away, as abstaining from meat on Fridays, as cultural and social relics rather than religious ones. Remember the "infallibility" of the Pope? That would be challenged by the rest of the church leaders as soon as any of your "reforms" left his lips! As history has taught us (and it hasn't changed to this day), it is all about power, and power is mute without an underclass to rule.
2
Yes, Maureen, the scene in Hamlet where Claudius can't pray "My words fly up, My thoughts remain below," seems to sum up the stand of the church towards women. Words in themselves are insufficient because all the proclamations of love will not give women a seat at the table. I am older than the Pope, but I know how absurd it is to say one thing and do another. In the idiocy of precluding more than half of the people in an organization from any chance of serving even at the lowest level (parish priest), it is impossible to envision a women leading such an obtuse organization. If Pope Francis is afraid of those Cardinals and Bishops he is surrounded with, then he never should have accepted their appointment to lead. Even though his persona is enormously appealing, his man of the people demeanor, he is still the head of his church and fully capable of LEADING them into the 21st Century. It doesn't matter what he says about birth control because the fact is that it is widely practiced in his church. That he is a forgiving man is obvious. So if a woman wants an abortion for whatever worthy reason, she now knows she'll be forgiven and invited back into the fold just like murderers. That being the case why not have women priests and bishops. At his core I think he is a good man. He just needs more women like you to tell him that he must act if the church is to prevail in the real world. I am not a religious man, but I'll pray for him to come to his senses.
3
Women who join the church are shooting themselves in the foot. They were free to decide their future. If they are not happy so be it. Same obviously for young men who are not allowed to touch a woman for the remainder of their lives. The church is based on insanity but all based on free decisions. The only ones not free to decide are the kids of insane parents. Who in the world tells his kids to serve insanity, especially if they are the ones, at a young age, who are touched by this church but then strictly for sexual pleasure and self satisfaction of grown-ups. Any one following such a church is asking for serious trouble.
3
As noted in the article, Francis was raised in a Latin American culture - and few in the U.S. really appreciate just how macho that culture is. For Francis, male superiority and dominance are axiomatic, non-debatable propositions. Patriarchy is too deeply rooted in his personality for any real progress to be made, and we'll have to wait for another pope, in another time. At best, he may succeed in taking the annullment process out of the 13th century. I had hoped he might be open to ending ceilbacy for the priesthood (the unfortunate invention of an earlier pope), but now I doubt we'll see that much progress in our lifetimes. When it comes to Catholic doctrine, every tiny step takes a generation to accomplish.
2
While watching a broadcast of Francis's Mass at Sts. Peter & Paul in Philadelphia, I was pleased to hear him acknowledge the importance of women to the Church. And then, the camera panned to the only women in the basilica. They were in the very back, behind row after row after row of male priests and bishops. That visual said a lot more than Francis's words did.
125
Perhaps this was him calling them forward, right over the heads of the current powers that be....
1
Mareen's got her groove back!
4
Maureen Dowd's comments are addressed to an issue that has plagued American politics and society that from its beginnings disenfranchised women. Moreover, Roman Catholicism's approach to human sexuality is grotesquely distorted as evidenced in many ways including the cancer of pedophilia that could take down a less powerful and politically robust organization run by men for men and the legacy of the Roman Empire. To Pope Francis' great credit he focuses on the possible and the relevant, love and family. Will the role of women change in Roman Catholicism...not now...perhaps never but there are choices to be made. I like many seminarians who faced the terrible choice of chastity as the price of entering the priesthood chose to leave completely. There is NO remedy for an organization as resistant to change as is Roman Catholicism. To have someone lead it who gets what should be its guiding principle is a breath of fresh air but he is powerless to effect the changes that Maureen Dowd rightfully asserts that it should.
3
I understand your pain, Maureen Dowd, but I can't give you a recommendation.
Some basic principles of human respect transfer from century to century, putting a date on an idea doesn't diminish it, pers se.
I understand that women of today have different roles than the women of yesterday -- work opportunity and pay, for example, are often unfairly suppressed, especially at a time when the role of women in the workforce is necessary and often a desired option to traditional roles of home-maker.
But let's not blame the Pope for those repressions. He doesn't even live in America. Gerrymandering and "At Will" employment have a lot to do with repression here in America: the former is taxation without representation and the latter is dismissal without cause -- favoring whimsical power -- the antithisis of due process. The Pope has nothing to do with those two repressions.
The Pope can only plant seeds of accepting justice and considering repression by habit. You can't put new wine in old bottles -- they will burst.
Some basic principles of human respect transfer from century to century, putting a date on an idea doesn't diminish it, pers se.
I understand that women of today have different roles than the women of yesterday -- work opportunity and pay, for example, are often unfairly suppressed, especially at a time when the role of women in the workforce is necessary and often a desired option to traditional roles of home-maker.
But let's not blame the Pope for those repressions. He doesn't even live in America. Gerrymandering and "At Will" employment have a lot to do with repression here in America: the former is taxation without representation and the latter is dismissal without cause -- favoring whimsical power -- the antithisis of due process. The Pope has nothing to do with those two repressions.
The Pope can only plant seeds of accepting justice and considering repression by habit. You can't put new wine in old bottles -- they will burst.
1
The Pope mirrors the situation our President faced dealing with similar arch conservatives(really reactionaries). Change comes from a social movement. Catholic women must demand change more forcefully. With more than half of the population women, this type of ciivil disobedient action could not be ignored.
The nut of the problem is that a critical mass of activist adherents has not occurred. Enough, probably a majority, of Catholic women accept their lot or do not wish to rock the boat too much. They are not moved to bring change more quickly. This is not restricted to social revolution against patriarchal rule, but has been the case for women's suffrage, labor rights, and civil rights.
Failure to address what others see as injustice, however, has led to a shrinking number of the faithful.
If the cries and actions of those kept out of full participation continues, Ms. Dowd's complaints will be fulfilled by the actions of parishioners, not the Church hierarchy.
The Pope has led where he can. If more women think they are kept out of full involvement in their faith, they will have to stand up in numbers, that no power of the Church is able to quiet them. I leave with a quote from Thomas Paine:
"yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods...."
The nut of the problem is that a critical mass of activist adherents has not occurred. Enough, probably a majority, of Catholic women accept their lot or do not wish to rock the boat too much. They are not moved to bring change more quickly. This is not restricted to social revolution against patriarchal rule, but has been the case for women's suffrage, labor rights, and civil rights.
Failure to address what others see as injustice, however, has led to a shrinking number of the faithful.
If the cries and actions of those kept out of full participation continues, Ms. Dowd's complaints will be fulfilled by the actions of parishioners, not the Church hierarchy.
The Pope has led where he can. If more women think they are kept out of full involvement in their faith, they will have to stand up in numbers, that no power of the Church is able to quiet them. I leave with a quote from Thomas Paine:
"yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods...."
1
All Hail modernity.... so, so much better than the past, all of which must be discarded and decried, post haste.
Ahh.... not so fast, Maureen. Your need to criticize seemingly overwhelms your better self.
Ahh.... not so fast, Maureen. Your need to criticize seemingly overwhelms your better self.
1
If the emphasis becomes the common good, the golden rule and morality is not confined to sexual behavior then there is progress. Agreed, women deserve more. But if we can learn to share, end cruelty, we can still press on for equality. Losing the fight for kindness and the common good is not necessary for women to progress. Just the opposite.
Thanks, Ms. Dowd. He almost had me fooled.
5
Ms. Dowd has called the Pope on his treatment of nuns and women in general. She did not address the hypocrisy of his failure to address the role of the Church in the growing human population and the relationship between an increased human population and climate change. The Church and the Pope will have plenty of poor to bless in the future and his support for immigrants can grow as mass migrations continue and increase in intensity. The Pope needs to treated women with equality and to allow birth control in an over populated world. Don't be blinded to the real sins of the Church.
3
Canon law can and should be rewritten to allow for more lay participation in the governance of the Catholic Church. As Cardinal Newman said of the laity, "The Church would look foolish without them." The old motto of 'pay and pray' lay people is totally out of date.
2
I agree. But. Remember he doesn't have just 4 or 8 years ... we may yet see more movement from him. His genius is in moving hearts and minds, not unsmilingly setting out dogma like so many of his predecessors. He is a people person. He knows he cannot change thousands of years of outdated dogma in just a couple of years, but it looks to me that he is working on softening up attitudes.
2
Global warming and ending the death penalty are not 19th century ideas. And these issues are more important than women in the church, as is poverty. We must seek commonality not difference.
5
Forget it, the professionally angry will not change.
As Pope Francis toured the northeast, he may have noticed a debate that we are having on the role of women--not as clerics, but as warriors. Then, I wondered whether Xi noticed Boehner's announcement--and how it focused, once again, the right wing's criticism of Obama. I doubt those kinds of things--abrupt resignations of legislative leaders and criticism of Xi--are allowed in China. And Putin will soon be strutting about the streets of NYC, taking in all that the financial and cultural center of the world has to offer and that mob-run Moscow will never begin to approach.
Are we morally up to a visit by Pope Francis? Can our messiness in government and industry withstand the scrutiny of the well-ordered bureaucrat running China or the mob boss running Russia? Let them draw their own conclusions. We know the answers.
Are we morally up to a visit by Pope Francis? Can our messiness in government and industry withstand the scrutiny of the well-ordered bureaucrat running China or the mob boss running Russia? Let them draw their own conclusions. We know the answers.
1
Thank you Maureen. Thank you a thousand times.
1
This article is similar to Dowd's sniping at President Obama. First she complains about the excessive adulation - and she has a point, some of it is excessive, these are ordinary humans. Then she complains that these ordinary humans fail to perform superhuman feats. For example, she complains that Obama isn't a "people person" who could gain Republican support. Note to Dowd - no amount of backslapping would gain Tea Party support for any of Obama's numerous achievements. Similarly, she complains that while Francis is leading the Church out of its unholy alliance with reactionary forces around the world, Francis has not taken on female priesthood. Note to Dowd - even the Pope is a mere mortal who must work in the real world. Unlike the conservative bishops, Francis is praising and not demonizing church women. That is an important first step. He needs more grass roots support to move further.
4
Women have not achieved equality in this country, so how do we expect them to achieve equality within a patently patriarchal Catholic church? Unless a woman can identify herself as LGBT, minority, or disabled--who cares? And even in those groups, it's the men who get the attention. If Caitlyn Jenner weren't already a celebrity in her earlier life, would anyone care about the new her? For that matter, does Caitlyn really have the capacity to understand women's lives as the non-celebrity women live them?
1
Dear Mrs. Dowd, the pontiff is 78 years old, can you give him a break? You know what will really be awesome for you, write a proposal on how it should be done. Apparently, you have the knowledge and work for one of the most important news outlets in the world.
Humans are well known to be quick at criticizing and when that happens, you just have to make them part of the solution. The guy is not perfect! But he has sure brought to this country what has been lost for years -- "hope" and a notion to care and love one another.
Humans are well known to be quick at criticizing and when that happens, you just have to make them part of the solution. The guy is not perfect! But he has sure brought to this country what has been lost for years -- "hope" and a notion to care and love one another.
8
What's rarely said about the Church's attitude toward women is the Church's competition as the true church with Orthodox Jews and Orthodox
Christianity. Neither permit women to be rabbis or priests. That's what drives the Church---pure and simple.
Christianity. Neither permit women to be rabbis or priests. That's what drives the Church---pure and simple.
1
With due respect to Ms Dowd's job as a political commentator, let's not miss the point; it's about the people Jesus Christ would first serve if he were here, not about the servers to the people.
I am not personally interested in the Pope's cool factor, but in his ability to be heard above all the racist, selfish, and nonsensical garbage choking "news" sources. Generally speaking, the internal gender struggle inside the church isn't important to most people, so his focus on the racist and violent speeches against immigrants, the callous selfishness of those who want poor people to disappear, the intent of the right to kill as many services for the vulnerable as they can, are all much more important to the bulk of the needy as well as the compassionate, and that is what he is rightly addressing first.
Having said that, he did reach out to Nuns very specifically last week and praise their importance. Not much in the scheme of things, but a start and far more than anyone before him in recent memory. So since he shows all the signs of being a thoughtful person who is attuned to social realities as much as he may be uncomfortable with some, and has already shown the relevant people he is listening, I do feel that some hard lines are softening enough to make him a very viable world leader and voice in our very challenging times.
I am not a practicing Catholic, and I was listening to the message and LOVED it.
I am not personally interested in the Pope's cool factor, but in his ability to be heard above all the racist, selfish, and nonsensical garbage choking "news" sources. Generally speaking, the internal gender struggle inside the church isn't important to most people, so his focus on the racist and violent speeches against immigrants, the callous selfishness of those who want poor people to disappear, the intent of the right to kill as many services for the vulnerable as they can, are all much more important to the bulk of the needy as well as the compassionate, and that is what he is rightly addressing first.
Having said that, he did reach out to Nuns very specifically last week and praise their importance. Not much in the scheme of things, but a start and far more than anyone before him in recent memory. So since he shows all the signs of being a thoughtful person who is attuned to social realities as much as he may be uncomfortable with some, and has already shown the relevant people he is listening, I do feel that some hard lines are softening enough to make him a very viable world leader and voice in our very challenging times.
I am not a practicing Catholic, and I was listening to the message and LOVED it.
6
The Catholic Church could give a masters class in politics to conservatives here in Washington. When the conclave elected Pope Francis as their next pope all they did was to put a warm and friendly face to present the Church to the world. Pope Francis softened the tone and language towards gays and others without changing policy. Shifted the Church's focus towards the poor and social justice which makes the Church appear to be more liberal than it is actually is. The Church like any other large institution is slow to change. What makes the Catholic Church unique is that from the Pope all the way down to a local priest at a local parish is that no one is elected just appointed to their position. In essence the Catholic flock have no direct voice or say in who their leaders are in the Church's hierarchy.
5
The Pope is leading a very, very large number of diverse people all over the world. And he is addressing a large number of different issues. He must move at speeds on his initiatives that the majority of the people can follow. Considering all this, he is exceeding all of my expectations...and then some.
I am deeply grateful to this man. Here is a person who is going above and beyond. Not many of us can claim the same, especially not those of us who dwell on a few of our favorite causes.
I am deeply grateful to this man. Here is a person who is going above and beyond. Not many of us can claim the same, especially not those of us who dwell on a few of our favorite causes.
1
The problem with any pope is that he is still a Catholic, and the Catholic Church has 1500 years of male chauvinism in its past, along with a record of torture and institutionalized murder that would make most of history's tyrants green with envy. The Church may have apologized for Galileo, but remains silent on the burning of Giordano Bruno. The molestation scandal continues to be ongoing.
On the flip side, the Catholic Church was successful in mobilizing Europe against the Muslim threat from the Ottoman Empire, which was turned back at both Malta and Vienna. Thanks, guys.
In conclusion - it's nice to see what Maureen Dowd can do when she takes her tongue out of her cheek and leaves the snark at home. This was a wonderful column.
On the flip side, the Catholic Church was successful in mobilizing Europe against the Muslim threat from the Ottoman Empire, which was turned back at both Malta and Vienna. Thanks, guys.
In conclusion - it's nice to see what Maureen Dowd can do when she takes her tongue out of her cheek and leaves the snark at home. This was a wonderful column.
3
John Boehner is mocked for "blubbering" yet men are constantly criticized for not being in touch with their emotions. Men can't win.
5
Today Dowd demonstrates infallibility in her opinion: on the issues of sexual abuse and the equality of women, this Pope commits the sin of omission, rather than commission ... but a sin nonetheless, and not a venial one.
3
Ms. Dowd, you are too kind to the Pope & Church. It boggles the mind that global warming & poverty are two of his constant topics yet the origin = Over-Population by rules against family planning, contraception & abortion are so damaging. The Pope is just another politician.
3
Why is he now Latin American? I thought Argentina was in South America.
1
Why is it that every time I see one of these guys the "I am the great and powerful Oz," runs through my head?
A great column...at last.
The writer's reference about Latin America as a macho land is innacurate since several Latin American countries have been and are currently governed by elected women president, whereas, we here are now considering a first run for a woman president.
1
I guess the glass is one quarter empty.
1
And it used to be one quarter full!
The Pope Francis said, somewhat notoriously, on subject of homosexuality, "Who am I to judge." This is insanely radical coming from the leader of 1.2 billion Catholics is a 2,000-year-old church.
What he has done is inch the dialogue (and he does encourage dialogue) into a new (to the church if not to secular society) direction. I would have to go back to John XXIII to think of another pope so tethered to the real world of the people in the pews.
I won't argue the question of his policy failures, and they are bad. But he does seem to be learning and growing. Giving a shout-out to the nuns is major. He began to reach out to the victims of sex abuse. Not big in our terms, but huge in Roman Catholic terms.
So, sure, I would like him to be more perfect. But change has to start somewhere. And it has to start small.
Even if Francis were inclined to start big--ordaining women for starters--he would achieve a schism. "So what?" one might ask. The so-what is that the dialogue would become one of institutional organization and disarray, who's in, who's out. Who gets to keep the Vatican? Which priests are legitimate or not? On and on. The litigation would be endless.
So I'll take one flawed human being, okay, one flawed man, preaching the best of the Gospel, who can point the way to something better.
Let's not forget, even Moses didn't reach the Promised Land.
What he has done is inch the dialogue (and he does encourage dialogue) into a new (to the church if not to secular society) direction. I would have to go back to John XXIII to think of another pope so tethered to the real world of the people in the pews.
I won't argue the question of his policy failures, and they are bad. But he does seem to be learning and growing. Giving a shout-out to the nuns is major. He began to reach out to the victims of sex abuse. Not big in our terms, but huge in Roman Catholic terms.
So, sure, I would like him to be more perfect. But change has to start somewhere. And it has to start small.
Even if Francis were inclined to start big--ordaining women for starters--he would achieve a schism. "So what?" one might ask. The so-what is that the dialogue would become one of institutional organization and disarray, who's in, who's out. Who gets to keep the Vatican? Which priests are legitimate or not? On and on. The litigation would be endless.
So I'll take one flawed human being, okay, one flawed man, preaching the best of the Gospel, who can point the way to something better.
Let's not forget, even Moses didn't reach the Promised Land.
91
Thank you for your own 'real world' take. It seems many commentators here want to impose a purity test before they'll put a shoulder to the wheel. Francis is one man trying to move the needle on many critical issues. Cut him some slack, stop sniping from the sidelines, and lend a hand.
1
Unfortunately for all the Francis cheerleaders, his time is limited. 79 soon and not feeling so well at that. As soon as Francis leaves the US the clamor will dim and he will be forgotten by most non catholics and luke warm catholics.
HIs legacy will probably be small if he has less than 4-5 years on the seat. Compare that to the almost 30 years of JP ll and Benedict together who had real time to shape the Church.
Non believers, like Herod with Christ, always like a good show. But the thrill will fade when Francis won't say anymore. They will soon send him packing.
HIs legacy will probably be small if he has less than 4-5 years on the seat. Compare that to the almost 30 years of JP ll and Benedict together who had real time to shape the Church.
Non believers, like Herod with Christ, always like a good show. But the thrill will fade when Francis won't say anymore. They will soon send him packing.
We wouldn't even provoke a schism. He simply wouldn't be allowed to ordain women on his personal authority. The Pope is only "infallible" on issues of doctrine. The male only priesthood is only "church tradition". As such it can be changed by consensus decision of the hierarchy (as per the Latin to vernacular Mass in Vatican II). The Pope can't mandate women priests on his own authority.
1
It's complicated. Maureen Dowd makes it her job to attack lots of good people, and she often makes good points. One could wish she would attack Obama less and the despicable right more, and if we are to talk about sex discrimination, there's a right midden.
My problem is that given the Catholic hierarchy and history it seems to me this pope is doing his best to practice what he preaches and has the power to cause more change than most others. We need that so badly, I'm content to leave the obvious flaws she points out aside, since even there he has made a few gestures trying to pry open the door.
However, people are right to complain about the uber focus on sex and keeping women in their place. I just don't think Pope Francis can fix that, and am deeply impressed with the work he is doing to bring us back to caring for each other and our embattled home.
My problem is that given the Catholic hierarchy and history it seems to me this pope is doing his best to practice what he preaches and has the power to cause more change than most others. We need that so badly, I'm content to leave the obvious flaws she points out aside, since even there he has made a few gestures trying to pry open the door.
However, people are right to complain about the uber focus on sex and keeping women in their place. I just don't think Pope Francis can fix that, and am deeply impressed with the work he is doing to bring us back to caring for each other and our embattled home.
3
The church has no requirement to change with the times. People either believe the church and pope are right and follow or go their own way. I was baptized catholic, attended catholic grammar school, and chose to not believe when I attended high school. If you look at the history of the church its easy to see the flaws. If you see the flaws its hard to believe the church is on the right path. Others either don't see the flaws or choose to ignore them. That said I don't presume to tell the church what to do, who knows maybe the church and the pope, a respected and revered world leader, are right and myself, a commenter from Ocala, FL, are wrong. Ms Dowd on the other hand presumes to tell the pope how to better run the church.
38
Don't tell me you will deny a valid truth that Dowd speaks about. Without women in this world, you men would be doomed and would have long ago been instinct far beyond our physical ability to create the likes of you.
The men here telling Dowd and women in general to stop complaining, stop being so demanding, stop interfering with their warm-fuzzy fee-fees, and to just be grateful for any crumbs of empty, shallow words thrown our way, is rich.
They are not the ones who are kept second-class citizens in their own church. They not only aren't the ones who are marginalized by church policies -- and the church's heinous interference in public policies regarding women and their rights and freedoms. In fact, men often are the beneficiary of those policies because women who are marginalized are women who can't fight for and claim their power.
The men telling Maureen and other women to stop complaining are part of the problem. They are the ones who need to sit down and shut up, and get out of the way as women push to bring the church, and women's rights, into the 21st century and keep them moving forward
They are not the ones who are kept second-class citizens in their own church. They not only aren't the ones who are marginalized by church policies -- and the church's heinous interference in public policies regarding women and their rights and freedoms. In fact, men often are the beneficiary of those policies because women who are marginalized are women who can't fight for and claim their power.
The men telling Maureen and other women to stop complaining are part of the problem. They are the ones who need to sit down and shut up, and get out of the way as women push to bring the church, and women's rights, into the 21st century and keep them moving forward
8
Amen sister. Men have simply got to stop telling women all over the world what to do and what to wear. It is some of the men who are weak and THEY ARE AFRAID of losing what power they have. Remember how some men have complained that women's leggings should not be worn in public for fear the men cannot look away at all this exposure of the buttocks ? Give me a break. WE ought to run around naked if we want. Free the nipple. Go KIm Kardashian.
3
Blah........blah...........blah.........The same old arguments !!!
Change takes time, Mo. Major changes take epochs.
We Americans do not have to go back many years to find women stuck in the same muck as they are worldwide today, and that includes the Catholic Church.
Back then you'd have been one of only a few voices crying in the masculine-only wilderness. You'd have been singled out for your "smart-mouthedness," and Eleanor Roosevelt would have hushed you and told you that you were doing more harm than good. But that was then. Today, smart-mouths are prized.
We still are far, far in our doing unto women as we do unto ourselves. But we are closer than we were. Doors that are closed for no good reason can be opened again. History takes time and so do historical changes. One piece of advice: Do unto popes as you would have them do unto you.
Who knows. Francis II may be a pope for all ages.
We Americans do not have to go back many years to find women stuck in the same muck as they are worldwide today, and that includes the Catholic Church.
Back then you'd have been one of only a few voices crying in the masculine-only wilderness. You'd have been singled out for your "smart-mouthedness," and Eleanor Roosevelt would have hushed you and told you that you were doing more harm than good. But that was then. Today, smart-mouths are prized.
We still are far, far in our doing unto women as we do unto ourselves. But we are closer than we were. Doors that are closed for no good reason can be opened again. History takes time and so do historical changes. One piece of advice: Do unto popes as you would have them do unto you.
Who knows. Francis II may be a pope for all ages.
3
I read all the comments that speak against the pope's stance on women and I ask myself if all the readers are applying a secular filter to what clearly is a theological question. I'm not a theologian by any stretch of the imagination, but like the supreme court who uses the constitution as the source document upon which it bases it's decisions, the pope and all his predecessors uses the bible to establish church doctrine. For all those who cry out for women priests I have yet to see anyone cite a biblical passage supporting their argument. As a father of daughters I wholeheartedly am in favor of gender equality, but when it comes to religious equality it has to be based on the word of God as captured in the bible and not on what a growing crescendo of secular voices are wishing for.
21
When the premise is the Bible is the Word of God (praised be His name) there is no debate. (But ha ha stop reading it in English and learn Aramaic or Greek or whatever godly language gets you closer to the Truth.)
Have to have some context when the bible was written 2000 years ago...written by men who were inspired by God..yet women rights, equality, or liberation was nonexistent. If the bible was written today then we might see women in priestly robes.
You have perfectly encapsulated why religion is so dangerous. Or more specifically, the danger of people who think the "word of God" justifies discrimination.
We've seen at least one leader, President Obama, who dramatically changed his mind. Who, after years of steadfast opposition to marriage equality, did a complete 180 on the issue.
This gives me hope that this, the Coolest Pope Ever, just might change his mind regarding women in the Catholic Church.
This gives me hope that this, the Coolest Pope Ever, just might change his mind regarding women in the Catholic Church.
1
I suspect that Mr. Obama did not do a 180. He, most likely, always supported gay marriage in his heart. He was not willing to acknowledge it publicly until there was no political penalty for doing so.
1
a perfect example of hate the sin,i.e.moribund catholic church and their antiquated theology and biased mindset,but love the sinner,as in this far more open minded,humble,no red shoes for this guy,pope.
1
You have got to be kidding putting this Pope in the relatively enlightened 19th Century. You are at least chronologically over a millennia and a half off.
Pope Francis is mostly all Francis Albert Sinatra propaganda and symbolism. And "Old Blue Eyes" was a throwback to 4tn Century era of Constantine the Great in his excess. At best I would put this Pope in the 14th Century before the beginnings of the Florentine Italian Renaissance.
Pope Francis is mostly all Francis Albert Sinatra propaganda and symbolism. And "Old Blue Eyes" was a throwback to 4tn Century era of Constantine the Great in his excess. At best I would put this Pope in the 14th Century before the beginnings of the Florentine Italian Renaissance.
1
Thank you Maureen Dowd for offering some balance to the Papal love-fest. There is no doubt that on a relative scale Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air. His focus on global warming as a moral issue is enlightened. His rejection of many of the ostentatious trappings of his office and his highlighting the obligation we have to the poor is welcome. However, let's not lose sight of the fact that he is the leader of an anachronistic institution that is largely based on medieval teachings, invisible powers, and superstition.
As enlightened as he may appear, he is still constrained by his devotion and obedience to ancient dogma that has little reverence in the 21st century.
As enlightened as he may appear, he is still constrained by his devotion and obedience to ancient dogma that has little reverence in the 21st century.
2
Hypocrisy may well be the greatest of all the sacraments the Church has to offer!
It is not only that so much more was expected but that the only message he had was a totally negative message:decry, disapproving and lamenting.....with absolutely nothing never heard before.
One would have thought he had the courage to berate the To use a mild word, the USA for its mega crime in Iraqq a once prosperous country now laying in USA made ruins.
Or support the basic, elemental right of the Palestinian people for a sovereign state of their own in their own home land.
Much like Obama's premature and undeserved Nobel Peace Prize the reputation of Pope Francis is premature and hitherto undeserved.
One would have thought he had the courage to berate the To use a mild word, the USA for its mega crime in Iraqq a once prosperous country now laying in USA made ruins.
Or support the basic, elemental right of the Palestinian people for a sovereign state of their own in their own home land.
Much like Obama's premature and undeserved Nobel Peace Prize the reputation of Pope Francis is premature and hitherto undeserved.
What a callous and jaded view Ms. Dowd has....and why does she seem so
poisoned by shallowness....because the media has believed the media's own
message....poison begets poison...
But Francis the Pope....begets Agape...which is selflessness of Love of all
mankind...We should pray for the NYT and Ms. Dowd...and pray that this
Pope's message of the golden rule will be realized even in this hallowed
journal..AMEN...
poisoned by shallowness....because the media has believed the media's own
message....poison begets poison...
But Francis the Pope....begets Agape...which is selflessness of Love of all
mankind...We should pray for the NYT and Ms. Dowd...and pray that this
Pope's message of the golden rule will be realized even in this hallowed
journal..AMEN...
3
Ms. Dowd, by writing that she attended canonization Mass at Catholic University 'with' the pope sounds quite self centered. I rather think that she, like others, attended canonization Mass by the pope.
As to him being the perfect 19th century pope, she knows quite well that the dogmata of the Catholic church change very, very slowly. After all, this church has only recently and retroactively allowed Galileo back into its folds, and cleansed its sermons from to duty of converting Jews in order to be 'saved'.
Last but not least, when Pope Francis talks about the throw away culture and unfettered capitalism, it is certainly not about vendors hawking trinkets in the streets of the capital. Might he not have talked about the fact - obviously knowing a lot about this country - that hundreds of millions instead of being used to feed the poor are being spent by people to buy themselves a government?
Should Pope Francis try to achieve everything on Ms. Dowd's wish list, he would face a revolution from within his own 'government' that would make our Tea-Partiers that eventually got rid of Mr. Boehner look like guardian angels.
As to him being the perfect 19th century pope, she knows quite well that the dogmata of the Catholic church change very, very slowly. After all, this church has only recently and retroactively allowed Galileo back into its folds, and cleansed its sermons from to duty of converting Jews in order to be 'saved'.
Last but not least, when Pope Francis talks about the throw away culture and unfettered capitalism, it is certainly not about vendors hawking trinkets in the streets of the capital. Might he not have talked about the fact - obviously knowing a lot about this country - that hundreds of millions instead of being used to feed the poor are being spent by people to buy themselves a government?
Should Pope Francis try to achieve everything on Ms. Dowd's wish list, he would face a revolution from within his own 'government' that would make our Tea-Partiers that eventually got rid of Mr. Boehner look like guardian angels.
2
Tarten=he most I can say for this pope is that he gets the award for Most Improved Pope, much like the kindergarten kid who finally learned not to bite his fellow students. A very low bar indeed, considering the long line of hateful, right wing, misogynistic theocrats preceding him. Equal rights for women, birth control, access to abortion (by choice, but especially for fetal deformities and to always protect the life of the mother) and blanket condemnation of the death penalty (murder) would be an excellent beginning.
Until then, suppose they gave a mass and nobody came?
Until then, suppose they gave a mass and nobody came?
3
If you want to attend a church that has women (and gays) as clergy, join the Congregationalists. I grew up Catholic but attended Congregationalist services later in life, and they were democratic in their governance and the most diverse and welcoming community that I've ever been a part of. The Catholic Church is an old dog that'll never learn new tricks. Why keep fighting it?
This column is poignant, moving, and true. I would add this... I will believe Francis and his church is serious about the plight of the poor when their stance on birth control is reversed. While the burden of too many and some unwanted children falls primarily on women, men also suffer--not to mention the children born into families and communities unable and sometimes unwilling to care for them.
Nice job, Maureen. This is when you are at your finest.
Nice job, Maureen. This is when you are at your finest.
2
Brava! Exactly what my daughter has been saying. Its like the Pope should sing the song for himself, shake up, wake up and look all around you. Girls are outperforming boys in schools and colleges. They are working outside home, more than ever before (not counting the millions of women who have always worked in their farms in Africa, Asia and Latin America). They are in Board rooms, not in the role of bringing coffee, but actually sitting down with the guys at the top. Women are teachers, doctors, nurses, technicians, police officers, military officers, CEOs, CFOs, COOs, CIOs, name it...they are even head priestesses and leading clergy in other churches (perhaps with the exception of Catholic churches and mosques). So dear Pope Francis, please listen to your own song and remember women too were created equal, they are as dear to the Creator as men and insects, all creatures big and small, everywhere in the cosmos, the heavens, hells and especially on earth.
8
But more importantly;
Why you (women) let the church tell you what you can or cannot do in the first place?
What does the Roman Catholic Church do for you in return? Does it do enough to warrant your loyalty and obedience?
One cannot keep knocking on the same doors. At some point one should stop knocking, turn away and find another door. It's called self worth.
Do you think men would keep waiting outside the door, knocking tirelessly, centuries after centuries? No. We don't. We will break the door or simply walk away.
Why you (women) let the church tell you what you can or cannot do in the first place?
What does the Roman Catholic Church do for you in return? Does it do enough to warrant your loyalty and obedience?
One cannot keep knocking on the same doors. At some point one should stop knocking, turn away and find another door. It's called self worth.
Do you think men would keep waiting outside the door, knocking tirelessly, centuries after centuries? No. We don't. We will break the door or simply walk away.
4
Hey Maureen, the church as was founded by Jesus Christ has always been counter-cultural. As Christians we are to be in the world but not to be of the world. Christianity is not a popularity contest. Many trachings of Christ are offensive to non-believers. Christ encourages us to go against our human nature and to give of ourselves rather than take from others. We are taught by the Bible to love all people in spite of their sins. What the non-believers see as opposition to sinful life styles, they translate into hate. The robber is encouraged to "tab no more". The prostitute is encouraged to "prostitute no more". The cheaters are encouraged to "cheat no more". Even as we continue on into the future, many things are still the same. Bad behavior is still bad behavior whether it's 2015 or 1520. No where in the Bible does It encourage same sex marriage or homosexual unions and on these two issues the Church is expected reverse what God has clearly stated. This does not mean we hate those who engage in these practices but are told to love them even in their present state. DISAGREEMENT is not HATE. These issues are not new but have been around all through history and have been rejected by society as a whole.
1
Salvatore Cordileon is emblematic of the little king bishops who apparently have no oversight which should rein them in.
1
Considering that the church has been mired in the 13 century for as long as I can remember a 19th century Pope is a big step forward. It is only on women in the priesthood, however, that that he seems unable to budge. On all the things he has spoken about he is remarkably ahead of Washington, New York and Brussels.
1
Well said. I remember one of my professors at Fordham, an ardent feminist (as were many of the nuns I attended grad school with) wearing a button that said "equal rites for women," championing a female priesthood. I knew one student there who, were she anatomically different, would be a cardinal now, so clear and powerful was she. The Roman Catholic church values a woman so highly she is almost a goddess -- Queen of Heaven -- but living women, not so much.
4
It's true of Hinduism too, although women goddesses represent shakti or power, wealth and wisdom, so called Hindu mothers in law still burn their daughter in law alive, for not bringing enough dowry.
1
As I spout my opinionated views on religion, I remain religious. With that in mind, I believe the Pope is moving a very conservative, rigid religion into the present with his views on the climate, unfettered capitalism, the death penalty, and with his humble persona. His limo is a Fiat for God's sake.
I admire him and feel he is doing more for mother earth than any other individual, except Malala. Step by step I suspect he will continue to inspire us, criticisms notwithstanding. Do unto others... what a concept!
I admire him and feel he is doing more for mother earth than any other individual, except Malala. Step by step I suspect he will continue to inspire us, criticisms notwithstanding. Do unto others... what a concept!
1
As with her columns dealing with Hillary, "Barry", et.al. , Ms. Dowd is essentially saying , "Iwant what I want, and I want it NOW".
That's the kind of thing I hear from my two year old grandson.
That's the kind of thing I hear from my two year old grandson.
3
Very good Maureen Dowd. This is an excellent piece, with which I totally agree. Pope Francis has changed the direction of the church toward a move loving platform, but it is still misogynist. I rejoice in what Pope Francis has accomplished. But he is just a man, after all. It is frustrating that women have to wait for men to share their power. No man I have ever met, shares his power willingly. Nearly all religion is based on the power of men over women. If Pope Francis were to go a step closer to recognizing the equality of men and women, it would help the world tremendously. It would open the doors wide to civil society to gain strength, and support the ultimate need to quit abusing our most precious asset, Mother Nature.
5
I would rather focus on the positives that have come as a result his relevant timely messages. He is breaking barriers and uniting people, leading.
Sure there is progress still to be made, but the church is moving in the right direction.
Sure there is progress still to be made, but the church is moving in the right direction.
6
As an atheist, I sit from the sidelines in bemusement of the past week's events. But as a little girl going to church with my parents, I was always surprised and dismayed by the lack of women in the bible, and as content in the minister's preachings. In the bible, I read constantly: "son of" or "Father." Women were rarely mentioned except in their status to men which was of course, subservient. And over the years in my youth, I realized the near total exclusion of women in the church doctrine and teachings. I always felt invisible in church except when men would, certainly without malice, pat me on the head and explained my nature in the future would be that of baby maker. That started my road to "NO THANK YOU." Over the years, I then realized all religion held women in such low subservient status. It never ceases to amaze me the way women are still held at bay, yet it is women, by far, that are the most observant of Christians. Sad, sad, so very sad.
164
@techgirl- The bible was written centuries ago when the concept of women's rights was not even on the horizon so I don't know why you should be so surprised about "lack of women in the bible". I find the church's message of love, hope, tolerance,"doing good unto others" to be quite uplifting and have never felt lesser or inferior to men when I attend mass and am sorry that you felt so invisible. The Catholic church is built on old traditions and perhaps with time their stance on divorce, contraception and gay partnerships may change. People who don't agree with the Catholic church can always attend a "Mega Church" and be "entertained" during their services.
1
Mo Dowd at her best. Very best.
5
Agree Ms. Dowd. It is the Church's position on celibacy and on women in particular that makes this papal event to me all flash and glitter and no substance. And, I continue to wonder why the most educated and intelligent of my own family and friends remain devout to this dogmatic religion, one that still implores its constituents to accept everything " on faith" and to bury the rational mind. I didn't buy it in 1962 and I don't buy it now.
10
I couldn't agree with you more, Maureen. For all that the charismatic Pope Francis is doing to recognize the plight of immigrants, the need to address poverty and the environment and the need to end the arms race, he definitely has a huge blind spot when it comes to recognizing women as equals, even in the same lip service he gives to gays. He seems more comfortable recognizing the personhood of "human life in all stages of development" than the personhood of women. He exhorts his audiences to eradicate social inequality, but that doesn't seem to include the social inequality of women in society or in his church.
13
Maybe it's time women stopped attending church. Stopped decorating the altars, stopped allowing their daughters to be baptised, stopped sending their daughters to Catholic schools and otherwise turned their backs on that institution. But women don't speak in one voice. They fight each other instead and therefore go nowhere.
10
When Maureen calls Jesus "...a carpenter from Nazareth", it says it all about Maureen's deference to Christianity.
1
oh, what a relief!!!! that somewhere in this feverish glorification, with yes, all the men hogging the front rows, someone finally speaks this truth, a relief to my deep-seated agitation and plain sadness.
6
I tend to think that Francis' plan is to lower the prestige of the clerics and thus elevate the status of women. Make the clerics true servants, rather than rulers with power. Why would women, then, aspire to such positions? It's where they've always been. it's time for women to be served, and listened to, by the clerics.
3
As a male who has grown up in the Catholic Church I thank you. This is such an obvious injustice based upon the Church's male dominance over the centuries. It's an embarrassment and as much as I admire Pope Francis I can never give him my full support. He, like every other Pope, is unwilling to confront his own bias. The Church's justification is self serving and without any meaningful justification. What could possibly justify the exclusion of 50% of our population because they were born a woman. There is a scene in Annie Hall when a pretentious individual pontificating on the thoughts of Marshall McLuan is brought up short by McLuan himself. I only wish that could scene could be repeated with Jesus and leaders of the Catholic Church regarding the equality of women.
6
We all can't be perfect. I don't think the excitement and fervor we all saw in the past few days had much to do with the Catholic Church, as it did for a leader who told it like it is about climate change, greed and capitalism. In the US our leaders. with few exceptions, are callous, smarmy and selfish. It was refreshing to see a leader who really cares about human beings and not so much about power.
95
Ha! Dowd has a valid point and that is the unequal treatment of 50% of this planet's citizens. For the 50% of us, it is NOT okay!
It is quite understandable that as a modern woman, and a Catholic, you are disconcerted when the Pope declares the door for ordination of women priests is closed. For which reason you regard the Pope, in spite of his good qualities and his emphasis on a welcoming church for all, as archaic.
You need not have come down so hard with an article headlined ‘Francis, the Perfect 19th-Century Pope.’
Why 19th century ...it is a practice inherited from the Judaic origins of the church and Judaism was inarguably a patriarchal culture, as was every religion of ancient times.
That it has taken 20 centuries to come this far may be the problem of the church not being among the avant grade. But as Popes have admitted, the question of female priests is not a matter of essential Catholic faith that cannot be breached ever. It is merely a convention that speaks to the origin of Catholicism within the Judaism of 20 centuries ago.
Give it a another century and female priests may be accepted. Right now you should take up the argument for it WITIHIN the church. Regard it as YOUR church and mold it as far as you can, and do not despair.
I too find my self occasionally at odds with the hierarchy, and with our parish priest. I speak politely, citing good arguments, and always end by saying: this church belongs to me too. And courteously take leave as a fellow pilgrim when I depart.
We must play our role in the church, at times the role of the loyal opposition.
Fraternally yours,
joe
You need not have come down so hard with an article headlined ‘Francis, the Perfect 19th-Century Pope.’
Why 19th century ...it is a practice inherited from the Judaic origins of the church and Judaism was inarguably a patriarchal culture, as was every religion of ancient times.
That it has taken 20 centuries to come this far may be the problem of the church not being among the avant grade. But as Popes have admitted, the question of female priests is not a matter of essential Catholic faith that cannot be breached ever. It is merely a convention that speaks to the origin of Catholicism within the Judaism of 20 centuries ago.
Give it a another century and female priests may be accepted. Right now you should take up the argument for it WITIHIN the church. Regard it as YOUR church and mold it as far as you can, and do not despair.
I too find my self occasionally at odds with the hierarchy, and with our parish priest. I speak politely, citing good arguments, and always end by saying: this church belongs to me too. And courteously take leave as a fellow pilgrim when I depart.
We must play our role in the church, at times the role of the loyal opposition.
Fraternally yours,
joe
2
To add to your comparison between Catholicism and Judiasm, you should note that conservative and reform Judiasm has had Women Rabbis for the past 20 years. Without a central dictatorial authority, Jewish scholars have re-interpreted the Torah and Talmud to reflect our modern sense of equality and morality, while keeping (most) of the traditions and beliefs.
Here's what I don't understand about Catholicism: Nuns are already responsible for many Church activities. Why not allow nuns to have the same/similar responsibilities (communion, etc) as priests, if the dogma of "priests must be men" must be followed (because it's "in the bible").
Here's what I don't understand about Catholicism: Nuns are already responsible for many Church activities. Why not allow nuns to have the same/similar responsibilities (communion, etc) as priests, if the dogma of "priests must be men" must be followed (because it's "in the bible").
2
Ms. Dowd, I think it's way too soon for you to be writing Pope Francis' biography or obituary.
It's clear that Pope Francis has a new, fresh, humble message for the faithful. He is slowly trying to change over 2,000 years of institutionalized rites and customs, which is an enormous challenge.
So before we judge Pope Francis' intentions and accomplishments let us first each start being a better person and instead of criticizing let's encourage.
It's clear that Pope Francis has a new, fresh, humble message for the faithful. He is slowly trying to change over 2,000 years of institutionalized rites and customs, which is an enormous challenge.
So before we judge Pope Francis' intentions and accomplishments let us first each start being a better person and instead of criticizing let's encourage.
90
He seems like a nice man but I'll start thinking he is serious when he fires Dolan!
Yes indeed the Pope needs to get his own house in order then attempting to change that of others. I get a strange feeling that there are many others in his own Palace of the Vatican who just provide lip service and carry on business as usual. The bigger irony is that the Catholic Church has not changed much in centuries and with modern aspects of its need of existence, the Catholic Church will adopt and adjust , but nothing fundamentally will change. The bottom line is that Pope Francis is just one man among many in the hierarchy that will not allow many centuries old buried secrets to be exposed or unmasked. At least he will not be all alone and lonely like others who have passed before him.
I suppose someone had to rain on the Pope's parade. Can we not suspend criticism for just a short while to bask in the warmth of encouraging events and inspiring language? Let he (or she) who is without sin cast the first stone (or critical editorial.)
1
The Catholic Church is an extreme Patriarchal organization, one of arcane rituals, gilded garments, elaborate houses of worship and carved statuary's. All of it amounting to affecting the attitudes of privilege associated with ruling Elites. The irony in this is breathtaking when you consider that it is all set up to reflect the tenants of a carpenters son who would have had none of it. As was expressed by the actions of that son himself, women are the equal of men in this and everything else. ALL can come to the glory that is the Creator, and none are denied. I cannot accept any religion that does anything less than act on this premise. In ignoring, slighting and outright denying women this right the men of the Catholic Church are cutting off their noses to spite their face.
John~
American Net'Zen
John~
American Net'Zen
65
What I saw was a high. The Pope, was the dope dealer. Not the druggie type. More of the Karl Marx persuasion. Karl's quote: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".
You have pointed out some of the remaining oppression, soullessness, and heartlessness of the Catholic Church. From my perspective you have also described every other religion as well. The most positive and humble messeage this Pope provided was his encouragement to worship from our own interior guidance supported by a reference to contemplation. We don't need a church or religion to discover our one true free Nature. We just need to give our attention to this interior wonder.
You have pointed out some of the remaining oppression, soullessness, and heartlessness of the Catholic Church. From my perspective you have also described every other religion as well. The most positive and humble messeage this Pope provided was his encouragement to worship from our own interior guidance supported by a reference to contemplation. We don't need a church or religion to discover our one true free Nature. We just need to give our attention to this interior wonder.
50
Ms. Dowd is expecting too much too soon. Pope Francis has been in the "job" for just over two years and unfortunately twenty years too late: he has an awful mess to clear up from his predessecors. However, Pope Francis may represent a religion, but he is a man of humanity and humility who seeks to address the wrongs that afflict the oppressed. Some wish to term him a socialist, but does opening a shelter for the homeless and tackling the thorny issues our leaders choose to ignore “socialism”.
Does brokering the Cuba/US thaw or recognising Palestine, calling Erdogan over the Armenian genocide or Burma over the Rohingya socialism? No, Pope Francis has the guts to speak where our leaders are ignoring the issues, looking over their shoulders with an eye on their donors.
Does brokering the Cuba/US thaw or recognising Palestine, calling Erdogan over the Armenian genocide or Burma over the Rohingya socialism? No, Pope Francis has the guts to speak where our leaders are ignoring the issues, looking over their shoulders with an eye on their donors.
5
"he is a man of a certain age from a macho, Latin American cultural background"? Really Maureen? Argentina has a female president and gay marriage and all of my three sisters in law have kept their maiden names. Have you actually BEEN to Argentina?
14
As an atheist who strongly supports the Pope's call for peace and social justice, and appreciates the attention that message is receiving (if not listened to in this country) it is good to read an authentic push back from Ms. Dowd, who I assume is a life-long member of the church.
My question about the Catholic Church has always been this: Why do women continue to support such a powerful organization that has put their young children at risk of sexual assault and excludes them from all decision making, even about their own bodies? Or do religious leaders refer to the "flock" not just as a metaphor but truly meaning nothing more than a herd of sheep?
My question about the Catholic Church has always been this: Why do women continue to support such a powerful organization that has put their young children at risk of sexual assault and excludes them from all decision making, even about their own bodies? Or do religious leaders refer to the "flock" not just as a metaphor but truly meaning nothing more than a herd of sheep?
10
Right on Ms Dowd, right on!
5
Perhaps Ms. Dowd's most powerful sentence ever;
'If only the pope could apply this Golden Rule: Do unto women as you would have them do unto you.'
On the money. It always pays to pull back the curtain further.
'If only the pope could apply this Golden Rule: Do unto women as you would have them do unto you.'
On the money. It always pays to pull back the curtain further.
12
Well, thank goodness for this particular column. The Pope reminds me, of all things, of a used-car salesman who does very well in his trade by making the customers like him. Same old used cars, though.
I was left cold by his speech to the Congress when he managed to tap-dance around the issue of priestly child abuse without once using the words "pedophilia", "child-abuse", "child-molestation", "sexual predation" - where is the sunlight on that issue? When will he tell the bishops and the congregations from his pulpit that they have an absolute religious obligation to call the cops when priests and lay workers sexually abuse children? Francis failed to address the one great problem in the Church I really care about, and I'm not impressed at all.
I was left cold by his speech to the Congress when he managed to tap-dance around the issue of priestly child abuse without once using the words "pedophilia", "child-abuse", "child-molestation", "sexual predation" - where is the sunlight on that issue? When will he tell the bishops and the congregations from his pulpit that they have an absolute religious obligation to call the cops when priests and lay workers sexually abuse children? Francis failed to address the one great problem in the Church I really care about, and I'm not impressed at all.
4
What do the Pope and the CIA have in common?
They are equally incompetent!
If you want to stop the ISIS, you have to understand where their power comes from.
The ISIS recruiting appeal is coming from exploitation of the Sunni-Shiite schism, so to destroy the ISIS you have to end that division and you have to dismantle the ideological foundation of such animosity.
See, in the Koran there are no Sunnis and no Shiites, so to fight the ISIS you have to use the Koran. You have to point out that the ISIS is in conflict with the Koranic verses. The ISIS appeal is coming from the Hadiths. There are no Hadiths in the Koran, so we are supposed to fight both the ISIS and the Hadiths.
See, the Pope should know the Christianity good and the Judaism and the Islam even better. Only if you know all three religions simultaneously you can understand the structural deficiencies in each of them.
Only if you understand the structural deficiencies you can eliminate them and come up with the unifying concept of faith.
One God, one faith!
The Pope should come with the correct theoretical concept and the CIA should practically implement it to destroy the ISIS!
They are equally incompetent!
If you want to stop the ISIS, you have to understand where their power comes from.
The ISIS recruiting appeal is coming from exploitation of the Sunni-Shiite schism, so to destroy the ISIS you have to end that division and you have to dismantle the ideological foundation of such animosity.
See, in the Koran there are no Sunnis and no Shiites, so to fight the ISIS you have to use the Koran. You have to point out that the ISIS is in conflict with the Koranic verses. The ISIS appeal is coming from the Hadiths. There are no Hadiths in the Koran, so we are supposed to fight both the ISIS and the Hadiths.
See, the Pope should know the Christianity good and the Judaism and the Islam even better. Only if you know all three religions simultaneously you can understand the structural deficiencies in each of them.
Only if you understand the structural deficiencies you can eliminate them and come up with the unifying concept of faith.
One God, one faith!
The Pope should come with the correct theoretical concept and the CIA should practically implement it to destroy the ISIS!
Who cares? Pope Francis is a relatively good-natured old man who was politically savvy enough to become his organization's CEO. Hanging on his every utterance is absurd. He is no more infallible than Donald Trump, albeit a great deal brighter and more dignified.
You have to believe in magic to take all of this seriously. It's like elevating Penn and Teller to high office because you believe their tricks are real. Actually, that might be a good idea!
You have to believe in magic to take all of this seriously. It's like elevating Penn and Teller to high office because you believe their tricks are real. Actually, that might be a good idea!
4
There are changes that cannot be documented by event and date, for example, but evidenced by the enthusiasm of those who support the pope's visit. Too many faithful Catholics have shared the humiliation of the sins of the Church, its moral delinquency as evidenced by sexual molestations of its own young people, and more by the continuing sin of pride infecting church leaders as they avoid confronting guilty clergy. Hard to accept is the attitude of bishops who have hidden such evil in their continuing belief that their ''mission" in such cases is to protect Mother Church from scandal.
Such protection requires keeping scandals hidden.
Catholics feel deeply the shame of their very human church. To see the enthusiasm and joy that has followed this pope throughout his entire visit shows how the catholic laity yearn for evidence that their leadership will lead them in the steps of Jesus Christ.
Our catholic church should not be a political force, but a humble example of how we followers can best become more like Christ.
Such protection requires keeping scandals hidden.
Catholics feel deeply the shame of their very human church. To see the enthusiasm and joy that has followed this pope throughout his entire visit shows how the catholic laity yearn for evidence that their leadership will lead them in the steps of Jesus Christ.
Our catholic church should not be a political force, but a humble example of how we followers can best become more like Christ.
1
what you can do from your pulpit, ms dowd, is take the best of the possibilites for advancement in all the areas you rightly cite as church flaws and, in the spirit of francis, set out after the anti-popes, if you will, the bishops who, says father thomas reese, are obstacles to the furtherance of "the francis effect," those "cranky and judgmental" eminances who will surely shut down the compassionate and inclusive impulses inspired by francis and send anyone coming to the church in the hopes of reconciliation "running for the door."
now would be as good a time as any for the faithful to take the faith back from its captors.
now would be as good a time as any for the faithful to take the faith back from its captors.
1
Although church pedophilia is mentioned in Dowd's piece, it is the more important of the two issues. Treating women as second class citizens is shameful, but sex crimes against children is depraved. Let's:
1. Abandon the term 'abuse.' The word implies a position beyond 'use,' as in, I abuse my screwdriver when I use it as a chisel. These are sex crimes.
2. Stop calling the perps priests. Once you commit a heinous sex crime against a child victim, there is nothing priestly you can ever do again. Henceforth these degenerates are mere 'posers.'
1. Abandon the term 'abuse.' The word implies a position beyond 'use,' as in, I abuse my screwdriver when I use it as a chisel. These are sex crimes.
2. Stop calling the perps priests. Once you commit a heinous sex crime against a child victim, there is nothing priestly you can ever do again. Henceforth these degenerates are mere 'posers.'
5
@ James from Rhode Island-You point to something that I have wanted to use in my many submissions (replies) pointing out the extraordinary bigotry of Times commenters who refer to muslims as a lower order of human beings not having the values that the Christian (assumed) commenters have. Not a one seems to remember anything at all about the degenerates that were highly visible in our New England but also across the USA.
Larry
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Larry
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
I wish I didn't agree with every word of Maureen's piece.
2
It makes good newspaper copy for a Catholic woman to eloquently challenge the Pope and Ms Dowd; per usual, doesn't disappoint. This Catholic woman is simply willing to hear the inspirational message that the Holy Father expresses in word and deed. The encouragement to see the face and value the experience of each individual. This Pope seems to have no desire to instruct from on high; rather to lead from within. The rest is up to us.
1
Does Dowd still identify as (religiously, not ethnically) Catholic?
After reading this, I would not be so sure...
After reading this, I would not be so sure...
Midway, what is an ethnic Catholic?
1
Sounds like Maureen believes Pope Francis is engaged in a "war on women". Now where have we heard that accusation before? Give the man a break, Ms. Dowd, the Pope just achieved a major miracle. Somehow he got the liberal and politically obsessed media to cover a luminous spiritual event for five full days.
2
Why would a woman belong to any religion ?
4
Wiccans seem to be attractive to the stronger sex.
I'm not a Roman Catholic, have never been and I don't play one on TV, but from what little I understand about the coming ins and going outs of the Divine, it is not Pope Francis, but his boss, the Holy Spirit, who governs the issue of ordination.
While here, in our cosy little, dysfunctional democracy the vox populi, is indeed the Vox Dei, things in Rome are a little different: there, Vox Dei is simply Vox Dei.
And it is enunciated by a somewhat higher authority, if such a thing could be imagined, than the opinion pages of the NYT.
The Church Militant has been granted, according to its own lights and that of a few billion of its followers over the last couple of millennia, a system of receiving and enacting upon the Word of God, which, by and large, has sustained it and many of its communicants in fairly good order in a world we never made.
To suggest that the Roman curia should be more responsive to an electorate which granted George W. a second term is an act of demonic presumption leading me to wonder how I might splash Holy Water on my computer screen without wetting the keyboard.
While here, in our cosy little, dysfunctional democracy the vox populi, is indeed the Vox Dei, things in Rome are a little different: there, Vox Dei is simply Vox Dei.
And it is enunciated by a somewhat higher authority, if such a thing could be imagined, than the opinion pages of the NYT.
The Church Militant has been granted, according to its own lights and that of a few billion of its followers over the last couple of millennia, a system of receiving and enacting upon the Word of God, which, by and large, has sustained it and many of its communicants in fairly good order in a world we never made.
To suggest that the Roman curia should be more responsive to an electorate which granted George W. a second term is an act of demonic presumption leading me to wonder how I might splash Holy Water on my computer screen without wetting the keyboard.
1
Change that comes too quickly often doesn't last.
Saying he's a great Pope for the 19th Century is like saying you're a great columnist for the 1950's.
Saying he's a great Pope for the 19th Century is like saying you're a great columnist for the 1950's.
7
Maureen, I think you have rightly taken Pope Francis to task. He talks a good talk but not much more.
And one other thing, a blubbering Boehner is no kudos!
And one other thing, a blubbering Boehner is no kudos!
3
Francis seems like a decent, good-hearted man who is constrained by the right-wing bureaucracy of the Church hierarchy and the Vatican curia appointed by his two predecessors. As noted, he is also the product of a macho Latino culture. He is also heir to a Manichean tradition that infected the Church since its origin (St. Augustine, Cathars, Bogomils, Bulgars, Jansenists).
The Church, since the time of the misogynist St. Paul, demanded that women be subject to their husbands, and approved marriage only if one were in danger of hell for their inability to remain sexless.
The Church, since St. Paul defended slavery until the late nineteenth century, so it is possible to change doctrine, but we might have to wait nineteen centuries for the Church to cease its attack on women, homosexuals and uppity nuns.
To borrow an image from Sarah Palin, the Pope is like lipstick on the very male hierarchical Church.
The Church, since the time of the misogynist St. Paul, demanded that women be subject to their husbands, and approved marriage only if one were in danger of hell for their inability to remain sexless.
The Church, since St. Paul defended slavery until the late nineteenth century, so it is possible to change doctrine, but we might have to wait nineteen centuries for the Church to cease its attack on women, homosexuals and uppity nuns.
To borrow an image from Sarah Palin, the Pope is like lipstick on the very male hierarchical Church.
1
Perhaps the Pope can join the President of China in co-hosting the UN summit on women's rights. The UN, it seems, likes to have the most virulent violators head its most important human rights committees.
I like Pope Francis a lot -- more than any other pope I've ever read about. I disagree with him on only three issues.
The first issue is gender equality, including who gets to marry whom and who gets to run the church.
The second issue is birth control, including prevention and termination of pregnancies.
The third issue is personal boundaries, including applicability and imposition of church doctrine on nonmembers.
Come to think of it, that last one is really the only issue I have with Pope Francis's positions.
What the pope requires of Catholics is none of my business. "Who am I to judge?"
But what he requires of non-Catholics is none of his business. Who is he to judge?
I wish Congress would heed his most famously humble quote.
I wish he would, too.
The first issue is gender equality, including who gets to marry whom and who gets to run the church.
The second issue is birth control, including prevention and termination of pregnancies.
The third issue is personal boundaries, including applicability and imposition of church doctrine on nonmembers.
Come to think of it, that last one is really the only issue I have with Pope Francis's positions.
What the pope requires of Catholics is none of my business. "Who am I to judge?"
But what he requires of non-Catholics is none of his business. Who is he to judge?
I wish Congress would heed his most famously humble quote.
I wish he would, too.
2
In her effort to criticize this Pope, Ms Dowd shows her ignorance of modern capitalism. To equate the small time entrepreneurship of those hawking trinkets with the "capitalism" of giant corporations who depend heavily on their power and crony connections to avoid competition, deplete and destroy the environment, eliminate and export jobs to maximize profits and top management bonuses, and ridicule regulation so they can cheap at will is a gross conceptual flaw. She might as well have argued that a spec of space dust is a planet because they both have matter.
80
Why should Maureen expect consistency from the RC Church? Their theology says there is an all-powerful god, but at the same time it says there is a devil that this god has been having a duel with for untold millennium, and since this rivalry contradicts the all-powerful bit, why expect logic from this bedeviled theology's top spokesman? And anyway, why would anyone want to join a club that doesn't consider them equal to its present members? Maureeen, come to your senses! A god and a devil are slugging it out over who gets to have mortals when they die? Really? Be glad you are NOT in that insane in-group.
Maureen Dowd is absolutely right. The church's stance on women can not be justified. When there's a significant impactful issue that an organization to which I belong refuses to change based on unsupported tradition, I just refuse to any long support the organization. Pope Francis, in my view, is a great man and a true representative of Jesus as a person can be in his position. But do really think Jesus now would be so intransigent on what really is an organizational hierarchy issue? Come on....
5
ladies, the back of the bus, please........
72
It's only funny if you think the women will voluntarily go there.'
The thinking women won't. This doesn't mean we need all the elderly men sitting in the front seats to give up their spots for us.
It's not the bus ride, People. It's where we're going. Cram on in -- take care not to sit on the laps of the men seated in first class -- but do climb aboard. Women of the world: you want to be on this bus, and where it is going. Look around -- elsewhere, you're walking and in little to no clothes too, and being asked to "entertain".
Keep your eyes on the prize, and be on board for the journey, ladies. Don't let the negative "hags" tell you where you can and can't go. It's a big world, but you gotta be on the bus first, to gain the knowledge of where you are and where you might possibly go, once the bus stops and we're all out on our own in a new place...
The thinking women won't. This doesn't mean we need all the elderly men sitting in the front seats to give up their spots for us.
It's not the bus ride, People. It's where we're going. Cram on in -- take care not to sit on the laps of the men seated in first class -- but do climb aboard. Women of the world: you want to be on this bus, and where it is going. Look around -- elsewhere, you're walking and in little to no clothes too, and being asked to "entertain".
Keep your eyes on the prize, and be on board for the journey, ladies. Don't let the negative "hags" tell you where you can and can't go. It's a big world, but you gotta be on the bus first, to gain the knowledge of where you are and where you might possibly go, once the bus stops and we're all out on our own in a new place...
Excuse me? I'm a trained killer as a veteran of the US Armed forces. You wanna say that to my face ... :)
A 19th century Pope? What does that even mean? Napoleonic wars? Marxist communes? Gunboat diplomacy? Victorianiana matriarchy? One 19th century Pontiff, Gregory XVI, issued the first proclamation against slave trade, In supremo apostolatus, "We warn and adjure earnestly in the Lord faithful Christians of every condition that no one in the future dare to vex anyone, despoil him of his possessions, reduce to servitude, or lend aid and favour to those who give themselves up to these practices, or exercise that inhuman traffic by which the Blacks, as if they were not men but rather animals, having been brought into servitude, in no matter what way, are, without any distinction, in contempt of the rights of justice and humanity, bought, sold, and devoted sometimes to the hardest labour." And yourself, carrying waters for Donald Trump, a 21st century idiot.
Pope Francis message to the immigrants is not to be ashamed. My message to the Pope, to the immigrants and to the refugees is to be ashamed.
Why?
They have to understand the faith much better.
If we brought every single person from the Latin America here to America, we would become the Latin America. Why would you incite several hundred million people to leave their homes? If the Pope told us not to be ashamed of our traditions too, then we should stay at our homes.
It’s O.K. to run in order to save the lives, but the escape should be temporary.
Even Prophet Mohammed was a refugee who ran from Mecca to Medina to save life and avoid physical extermination. But, it should be temporary escape till we learn the right principles, organize better and become stronger.
At that moment we are supposed to return to our homes to help out our family, friends and relatives by bringing the right principles to them too.
If a few dozen million immigrants returned to their homes from America and implemented the principles they learned here in their native countries they would turn their homelands into the new Americas over a few decades.
By the way, I am a refugee from Bosnia and I am ashamed that I cannot help my previous countrymen how to become a better country, how to love their neighbors more, and how to be the better people…
Why?
They have to understand the faith much better.
If we brought every single person from the Latin America here to America, we would become the Latin America. Why would you incite several hundred million people to leave their homes? If the Pope told us not to be ashamed of our traditions too, then we should stay at our homes.
It’s O.K. to run in order to save the lives, but the escape should be temporary.
Even Prophet Mohammed was a refugee who ran from Mecca to Medina to save life and avoid physical extermination. But, it should be temporary escape till we learn the right principles, organize better and become stronger.
At that moment we are supposed to return to our homes to help out our family, friends and relatives by bringing the right principles to them too.
If a few dozen million immigrants returned to their homes from America and implemented the principles they learned here in their native countries they would turn their homelands into the new Americas over a few decades.
By the way, I am a refugee from Bosnia and I am ashamed that I cannot help my previous countrymen how to become a better country, how to love their neighbors more, and how to be the better people…
What if Jesus Christ weren’t crucified by the Roman Empire?
Would our world look completely different? What if Jesus Christ lived much longer and died at age of 62 like Prophet Mohammed? Would there be Prophet Mohammed at all because Jesus Christ would manage to deliver all the intended God messages during His life? If all God Prophets worked for the same God as declared by the Koran and the previous Prophets managed to deliver all the necessary messages, would there be Prophet Mohammed at all?
If there weren’t Prophet Mohamed, would there be the Christianity at all? If Jesus Christ died of a natural cause like Mohammed, He would not let a religion be named after Him personally in the same way Mr. Mohammed didn’t let it happen.
Did Jesus Christ die to redeem or sins? If God previously provided us with the Ten Commandments, isn’t our redemption secured by the faithful implementation of the God’s Commandments? If Jesus Christ really wanted to die for our sins, wouldn’t He instruct His disciples to crucify Him personally to be obvious that He voluntarily died for our sins?
As it happened, many might think that the Roman Empire killed Jesus Christ to protect the Emperor’s throne and not to redeem our souls at all. If Jesus Christ famously said: “Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing”, that really doesn’t sound at all as if He willingly died for our sins…
What if Jesus Christ lived longer and died naturally? How would our world look like today?
Would our world look completely different? What if Jesus Christ lived much longer and died at age of 62 like Prophet Mohammed? Would there be Prophet Mohammed at all because Jesus Christ would manage to deliver all the intended God messages during His life? If all God Prophets worked for the same God as declared by the Koran and the previous Prophets managed to deliver all the necessary messages, would there be Prophet Mohammed at all?
If there weren’t Prophet Mohamed, would there be the Christianity at all? If Jesus Christ died of a natural cause like Mohammed, He would not let a religion be named after Him personally in the same way Mr. Mohammed didn’t let it happen.
Did Jesus Christ die to redeem or sins? If God previously provided us with the Ten Commandments, isn’t our redemption secured by the faithful implementation of the God’s Commandments? If Jesus Christ really wanted to die for our sins, wouldn’t He instruct His disciples to crucify Him personally to be obvious that He voluntarily died for our sins?
As it happened, many might think that the Roman Empire killed Jesus Christ to protect the Emperor’s throne and not to redeem our souls at all. If Jesus Christ famously said: “Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing”, that really doesn’t sound at all as if He willingly died for our sins…
What if Jesus Christ lived longer and died naturally? How would our world look like today?
And I find it nice that Pope Francis is so old-fashioned because I'm sick of all those liberal things like same-sax marriages, change of sex and all the rest alike I prefer the usual values of traditional Christianity.
2
Predictably, Dowd misses the mark entirely.
3
Maureen Dowd - the perfect 19th century opinion writer for the perfect 19th century news institution.
You're right, of course. But better the 19th Century than the 15th. Better pointing out climate change than denying it. But keep poking. He seems a man who wants to listen and do the right thing even if belief in supreme beings is denying the immensity of the universe and the fagility of our own existence.
67
Still waiting for the Vatican to apologize for the genocide of the Huguenots and vast number of murders amid the failed Reformation, so the Church of Rome actually isn't yet in the 15th century.
Religions need to be ended, not mended. Each is at its core flawed in assuming that the physical world is willed by someone's human-like consciousness & that this fact alone qualifies that consciousness as being above any standard of morality; flawed in failing to decree all human consciousnesses to have equal privilege (except insofar as a surprising number of religions' holy scriptures concede The Golden Rule in one sentence while desecrating it everywhere else); and in failing to decree Equality as the supreme moral law.
Religion encourages people to believe that they can become Good without ruthlessly suppressing their own human nature (animal, primitive, irrational, governed not by moral evaluations but only by evolution's anarchic tests of what will succeed in reproducing itself) in favor of machine-like logic & rationality. Religion lies, saying that people can be Good by being themselves, because there is a God that is like themselves, and the God in question is exempt from any rational standard of Goodness. At a loss to figure out HOW you are distressed by gay sex? No problem! Just say that God is against it too, and then you no longer need search for reasons why, when something is distressing, that's a statement about that something's being Bad, rather than about your own inability to control your gene-programmed evolution-driven subjective reaction to that something. This is the positive evil that religions do. It enables people to falsely justify human nature.
Religion encourages people to believe that they can become Good without ruthlessly suppressing their own human nature (animal, primitive, irrational, governed not by moral evaluations but only by evolution's anarchic tests of what will succeed in reproducing itself) in favor of machine-like logic & rationality. Religion lies, saying that people can be Good by being themselves, because there is a God that is like themselves, and the God in question is exempt from any rational standard of Goodness. At a loss to figure out HOW you are distressed by gay sex? No problem! Just say that God is against it too, and then you no longer need search for reasons why, when something is distressing, that's a statement about that something's being Bad, rather than about your own inability to control your gene-programmed evolution-driven subjective reaction to that something. This is the positive evil that religions do. It enables people to falsely justify human nature.
1
At last we agree on something. the pope, however "infallible" that the catholics proclaim, has still said that woman cannot be priests. Misogyny in its purest form.
1
You apparently don't understand the concept of papal infallibility. After you've read about it (the catholic catechism has a good explanation), and still disagree, that's fine. But, try to go to the source for information, not to the media.
Oh, Maureen, if you could only speak so openly and fearlessly about the Donald. You are a free woman of power, no one is holding you back from telling the truth, but you falter. Well, no one is perfect, not the Pope and not you.
4
A Pope that also refuses to accept a gay ambassador from France in the Vatican recently
A Pope that also refuses to meet the Dalai Lama, just to stay in the good books of the Chinese
A Pope that also refuses to meet the Dalai Lama, just to stay in the good books of the Chinese
2
Brava! How can he pretend to be concerned for the environment and not see the effect of overpopulation on the environment? And should he come to understand this simple truth, how can he not be in favor of women having control over their reproductive lives? Especially since men are rarely considered to be the other half of unwanted pregnancies.
3
Nuanced and well spoken, Mo.
2
"nonsensically canonized Father Juníipero Serra, a missionary agent for the Spanish empire in California, a man who flogged Native Americans who broke the rules of Catholic teachings"
A bit seperficial and harsh, even from you, Ms Dowd
A bit seperficial and harsh, even from you, Ms Dowd
2
Spot on Ms Dowd. Great Finale
louisqua - an American who lives inRome
louisqua - an American who lives inRome
1
The Catholic Church has spent two thousand years persuading rich people that it is better to give their money to the church than to their children. A recent book details the story in a fascinating blow by blow account.
The increasing power of the rich is the biggest political problem of our time. Where is Francis on this subject? Where does he advocate burning the wealth of the wealthiest upon death instead of giving political power to their heirs? Some societies do this. The story of wealth is told well in The Origins of Inequality from Harvard University Press.
The church and the pope are both in the pockets of the rich, despite the symbolism of Francis' name. I live in a city named after the same Francis, and appreciate both symbolic steps. But it is not enough.
The only politician who is talking about raising death taxes is Bernie Sanders. Once several years ago Donald Trump proposed taxing all wealthy people 14% of their possessions in order to pay off the national debt. He has not mentioned this idea recently.
Go to YouTube and watch Comedy Party Platform (2 min 9 sec). Then send a buck to Bernie and invite me to speak to your group. Thanks.
The increasing power of the rich is the biggest political problem of our time. Where is Francis on this subject? Where does he advocate burning the wealth of the wealthiest upon death instead of giving political power to their heirs? Some societies do this. The story of wealth is told well in The Origins of Inequality from Harvard University Press.
The church and the pope are both in the pockets of the rich, despite the symbolism of Francis' name. I live in a city named after the same Francis, and appreciate both symbolic steps. But it is not enough.
The only politician who is talking about raising death taxes is Bernie Sanders. Once several years ago Donald Trump proposed taxing all wealthy people 14% of their possessions in order to pay off the national debt. He has not mentioned this idea recently.
Go to YouTube and watch Comedy Party Platform (2 min 9 sec). Then send a buck to Bernie and invite me to speak to your group. Thanks.
It is a shame that the Church is behind the times in several respects.
1. Giving a full and equal role to women. Yet, those changes only began 50 to 60 years ago here and in Europe. In most of Africa and Asia the Church's conservative stance seems progressive. And we still can't equal pay and decent family leave.
2. Divorce, contraception, and abortion. Still only 50 to 60 years behind changes in the law, which a significant minority would still undo.
3. Gay rights. About 2 years, and still not settled or accepted in 2/3 's of the states.
So, the Church is behind the times, but that's only because of the revolutionary social advances in recent years in this country. And I must emphasize: THIS country. I don't know whether we'll see women priests ordained in Rome before we see women drivers in Saudi Arabia, but there are many more Catholic men who favor woman ordination than Saudi men who support women's rights. So, let's have some perspective, and let evolution proceed.
1. Giving a full and equal role to women. Yet, those changes only began 50 to 60 years ago here and in Europe. In most of Africa and Asia the Church's conservative stance seems progressive. And we still can't equal pay and decent family leave.
2. Divorce, contraception, and abortion. Still only 50 to 60 years behind changes in the law, which a significant minority would still undo.
3. Gay rights. About 2 years, and still not settled or accepted in 2/3 's of the states.
So, the Church is behind the times, but that's only because of the revolutionary social advances in recent years in this country. And I must emphasize: THIS country. I don't know whether we'll see women priests ordained in Rome before we see women drivers in Saudi Arabia, but there are many more Catholic men who favor woman ordination than Saudi men who support women's rights. So, let's have some perspective, and let evolution proceed.
104
The Episcopal Church does everything that you desire. And - it's shrinking by 25% per decade.
The fact remains that this "church" has been defined by the interpretations, definitions and rules and regulations of "men" not the words and actions of Jesus- a devout Jew by the way- according to the New Testament. One does not need to belong to an institution of any kind to emulate the holiness and actions of Jesus or any of the outstanding historical moral leaders and teachers.
Hey Mike how would you feel if you were on the short end of the stick. Would you opt for incrementalism. I doubt it!
I am not Catholic. And never in a million years would I presume to offer advice to the Catholic Church.
What does strike me, however, is the Church’s position on married clergy, part of the vow of celibacy. I have been on occasion to a service or other function at a Greek Orthodox Church (don’t ask about the pastries at the church’s annual Greek festival). Priests in the Greek Orthodox Church can marry, although sisters can not. The priest at that church is married with a lovely family. Were he Catholic, I thought, either he could not be married and have a family or he could not have become a priest.
I have read, if I recall, that there have been instances of older married Catholics who want to go to seminary, eventually, I guess, to enter the priesthood. They have been admitted to seminary.
Comments mention a shortage of priests. Allowing priests to marry would help with that. It might also help bring about change in the Church’s positions on woman, the subject of the Dowd column.
What does strike me, however, is the Church’s position on married clergy, part of the vow of celibacy. I have been on occasion to a service or other function at a Greek Orthodox Church (don’t ask about the pastries at the church’s annual Greek festival). Priests in the Greek Orthodox Church can marry, although sisters can not. The priest at that church is married with a lovely family. Were he Catholic, I thought, either he could not be married and have a family or he could not have become a priest.
I have read, if I recall, that there have been instances of older married Catholics who want to go to seminary, eventually, I guess, to enter the priesthood. They have been admitted to seminary.
Comments mention a shortage of priests. Allowing priests to marry would help with that. It might also help bring about change in the Church’s positions on woman, the subject of the Dowd column.
3
Portraying Pope Francis as a 19th century sort of Pope is overdoing it; however, so far he is talk and no delivery. If he doesn't bring women into the church as equals--as priests--he cannot get to first base on many issues facing the Catholic Church. A bad, bad sign was canonizing Junipero Serra -- in addition to crimes upon native peoples, Serra outraged the preaching of Christianity by consistently practicing self-torture during sermons--to the point of creating gore and violence before the people. He was no more a follower of Christ than Gilgamesh or Atilla. So, it is time for less talk and more do on the part of this very popular Pope. Simply put, what he says goes, period. He can do what he wants regards policy.
2
That is overly optimistic, I fear. The Pope must navigate a vast and frequently recalcitrant bureaucracy in Rome and elsewhere.
3
Agree MoDo. All the fawning and the tears and the fuss - the basics remain that the Rome Church is a backwards looking, out of touch, and clueless how to move forward organization.
8
The Unitarian church in town hosts festivals of all religions. They donate their space for Muslims to congregate, for Hindus to hold Diwali, Buddhists to hold their sangha sessions. They invite guests of other faiths to speak about their religions, they bring their 7th graders to visit Hindu temples in the area, invite Tibetan monks to explain their form of Buddhism to the middle schoolers. The worshipers here in the Unitarian churches, are open, progressive, even ahead of their times. They give us all a lot of hope, a sense of freedom, not dictated by dogma, orthodoxy or rites and rituals. Everyone is welcome.
1
Historical practice and the extreme beliefs of Catholisim, Orthodox Judisim, and Islam will not allow women to participate on the same plane as men. Not for a long time, and maybe never. This is despite evidence to the contrary of woman rabbis populating reformed Judisim and a woman Prime Minister of Israel, Golda Meir, who successfully led the nation through one of the most difficult periods of their history.
6
Even among the best of us, there are yet imperfections. Public policy that seeks, or claims, Perfection as an excuse for doing nothing, should be considered a sin. Presenting virtue as having value, yet preventing people from acting in good faith to exercise the responsibility of Virtue, by building social and political institutions relevant to our post-industrial life--as it is lived--is morally no different than the silent torture of a caged animal, operating on instinct to ensure survival, but being prevented from doing so by the convenience of men. Men who demonstrate a satisfaction at adherence to ideologies that are increasingly divorced from the known realities so evident in information (about ourselves) in the Information Age. Government is not the problem. Government is a necessity, to exercise responibility for the survival of human civilization in all forms. Anyone that claims absolute personal autonomy as a political goal is simply arguing for the destruction of community for a perceived personal gain in an 'autonomy' that has no purpose than itself. But there is no community in the Self. And where there is no community, there is ultimately no survival. Humanity is a social species. To deny that instinct toward community, with all the attendant insitutions of public power that represent our modern communities, is to deny our humanity. The pope is trying to remind us, in a paraphrased old slogan:"Extremism in defense of (a perceived) liberty, IS a vice".
You can't be a 21 century rock star pope if you close the door on equality for women in the church. A pope who closes that door is a 1970s rock star pope.
Catholicism will not be truly "cool" until a woman is rolling around in a bullet proof pope golf cart.
Catholicism will not be truly "cool" until a woman is rolling around in a bullet proof pope golf cart.
3
I finally understand why you have relentlessly attacked President Obama. He didn't change the world as fast as you wanted.
I don't understand why you keep attacking Hillary when her "rivals" are so much more evil.
So, Maureen, "Do unto women what you would have them do unto you."
Treat Hillary with respect and stop looking for every little thing to attack her. The Republican "candidates" are liars, panderers, war-mongers, hateful,anti-women, anti-gay, anti-everything except feeding the 1%.
Use your gigantic platform to go after them and let Fox attack Hillary.
I don't understand why you keep attacking Hillary when her "rivals" are so much more evil.
So, Maureen, "Do unto women what you would have them do unto you."
Treat Hillary with respect and stop looking for every little thing to attack her. The Republican "candidates" are liars, panderers, war-mongers, hateful,anti-women, anti-gay, anti-everything except feeding the 1%.
Use your gigantic platform to go after them and let Fox attack Hillary.
15
Kudos, valid points Shirine...
Advancing Hilary's agenda is not the same as advancing the cause of women in general. Criticizing Hilary is not the same as criticizing all women.
In fact, Maureen could make the point that Hilary is way behind the times too, like this Pope. She may well become the first woman president in the US, but she most certainly will not be the first woman who led a country in the world. Take a look at South America today, for instance. Chile, Argentina, Brazil. And, as of yet, I have failed to hear truly substantive words from Hilary that would benefit most women in this country.
In fact, Maureen could make the point that Hilary is way behind the times too, like this Pope. She may well become the first woman president in the US, but she most certainly will not be the first woman who led a country in the world. Take a look at South America today, for instance. Chile, Argentina, Brazil. And, as of yet, I have failed to hear truly substantive words from Hilary that would benefit most women in this country.
The Catholic Church, as a centuries-old institution, has embraced many theological and moral principles and practices that are woefully archaic and destructive to human life. Trying to move institutions of this size and age is a multi-year, no, multi-generational effort of hard and consistent work.
Pope Francis has taken some very important and dramatic steps towards a more enlightened world, both within and outside the church. I find that refreshing and encouraging. Is all his work done? No. Can and will he go further? I don't know. Will the hierarchy within the church inch forward? I hope so.
But, as Martin Luther King Jr. so well identified it, "The arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice."
Let's take what is offered, continue to press for more, but give thanks for movement.
Pope Francis has taken some very important and dramatic steps towards a more enlightened world, both within and outside the church. I find that refreshing and encouraging. Is all his work done? No. Can and will he go further? I don't know. Will the hierarchy within the church inch forward? I hope so.
But, as Martin Luther King Jr. so well identified it, "The arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice."
Let's take what is offered, continue to press for more, but give thanks for movement.
7
Otherwise reasonable people have, in their gushing admiration for the pope, ignored the glaring inconsistencies in his advocacy. To truly address climate change, you need to address population growth, but the church refuses to accept contraception use. In that same vein, the church admonishes the world for ignoring suffering, while it's last pope, while on a visit to AIDS-ravaged west Africa, advocated against condom use and claimed that condoms make the AIDS crisis worse. How many lives could be saved if the church would endorse the use of contraception? And if women could, with the moral authority of the pope, tell their husbands that 2 kids is enough, and to put on a rubber, how much richer would the lives of those 2 kids be, not having to share resources with 8 siblings? See: Brazil.
The church preaches a message humanitarian treatment, while relegating half of the people on the planet to second class status, simply because of what they were born with between their legs. How many women could be saved beatings and worse from the men in their lives if the Pope were to wake up and announce to the world one morning, "Women are equal to men in all regards" . How many lives could be saved overnight?
The church does much to treat suffering after the fact, but is utterly neglectful in doing anything to prevent it. Oftentimes, it creates the same suffering it seeks to heal.
The church preaches a message humanitarian treatment, while relegating half of the people on the planet to second class status, simply because of what they were born with between their legs. How many women could be saved beatings and worse from the men in their lives if the Pope were to wake up and announce to the world one morning, "Women are equal to men in all regards" . How many lives could be saved overnight?
The church does much to treat suffering after the fact, but is utterly neglectful in doing anything to prevent it. Oftentimes, it creates the same suffering it seeks to heal.
6
People want to believe: they want the Pope to step into the present, and will extend him goodwill and the benefit of the doubt that he's on his way. The Pope may be the leader of the Catholic Church, but he's a prisoner of it as well.
You're stating the obvious, but it needs to be stated. Keep him honest, Maureen.
You're stating the obvious, but it needs to be stated. Keep him honest, Maureen.
5
By scratching out the eyes of Hillary Clinton, Dowd as helped to set back the cause of women by many years. Yes, by helping to deliver the presidency to conservative Republicans, who view women as baby producing machines.
14
Indeed women are the worst when it comes to treatment of other women.
1
Not a nice try, but a dry, almost obligatory try, Maureen. You are so missing the feelings, the progress, the meeting at 9/11 site of rabbi, iman and pope, the frequent statements of support, recognition, and appreciation of women, lay and clerical that has swept people, of many faiths and none, here in the USA and beyond. There are so many conversations going on now that would not have happened last year, many not even last week, even one in the supermarket today among strangers. Join in the hope and joy.
We'll continue to work for change, in and out of the church, especially now that I've been welcomed back.
We'll continue to work for change, in and out of the church, especially now that I've been welcomed back.
8
The exclusion of women from the priesthood together with the celibacy requirement have been gaping holes in Catholic dogma for centuries ever more egregious now that we know the damage caused by these practices. But Pope Francis is probably as radical and 21st century on other issues such as economic equality and climate change as he can afford to be. Here he is most certainly a 21st pope - a Jesuit with an appetite for critical thinking. But would that Ms. Dowd were half as tough on sexist bullies like Trump as she is on the Pope- then she would have more credibility.
9
Bravo Maureen.
And the Mormon (LDS) Church and its leaders need to hear this as well.
And the Mormon (LDS) Church and its leaders need to hear this as well.
7
You have a good case to make on women's ordination. Unfortunately, as usual, you -- with the hubris of the new "I Carly" -- overreach. Francis never rejected "the idea that the institution could benefit from opening itself to the hearts and minds of women." He did reject ordination, but he has opened other doors to those heart and minds. You choose to make the perfect be the enemy of the good, inadvertently joining Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, and Mark Levin (a/k/a Trump, Cruz and Carson's speechwriters) in the 19th century insult -- in their case, branding Francis a Marxist. Hope you're pleased they'll be quoting you tomorrow. So much better better to make the more positive case -- after all, according to the Gospels, Jesus' first post-resurrection appearance was to the women -- in so many words, He told them -- "Go wake up the men." Isn't it ever thus!
3
Speak for yourself. The role of women in the church is not a deal breaker for me.
8
This woman isn't for the Times. How any loving human being, one with blood and not cold steel running through their veins, could think, let alone advertise in print, that this Pope, this man, is not for the times, is beyond me. As a "lapsed" Jew, not looking to return, and one who can think of nothing more eerie than having to go through "Christ" to get to God, this man, called Pope, has moved me to tears over the past days. Having lived through 9/11, I realized while watching the inter religious ceremony at the memorial, that I never was part of any formal ceremony to mourn the people that died that day. Hobbled together candle lit Beatles sing-alongs in Union Square and the shocked and dazed moments shared with loved ones watching the planes hit and the towers fall that September morning, were all the funeral that most of here ever got to share. Yet, in honor of the Pope's blessing, the first and only funeral for all the citizens of the city, of every faith took place, and in listening to the prayers, it was clear that all religions are just fingers pointing to the same message. One, which the Pope so magically spoke to the world from the Parkway tonight ".... before God created the world, he loved." That's it, end of story, and that anyone who would want to use the word "dangerous" in the same sentence with a man who preaches this, tells us all, what anyone in the world needs to know about why this Pope is exactly what our times could use and seems to sorely need.
8
Humility is so attractive in rock stars, successful politicians, popes. A truly wonderful quality. Facing climate change, destruction of the environment, and inequality head on -- a triumph, although scientists, environmentalists, and progressives have been doing this for decades. A series of talks by women in 1992 at an international conference aired on our local NPR station Friday made these points more eloquently and forcefully than Francis -- 23 years ago! But we must be thrilled when the leader of the Catholic Church actually leads. And, yes, he upholds the patriarchy. Let's let him and the rest of the Catholic leadership know that it is wrong, simply not acceptable. Welcome the good, tell the truth about the bad.
1
This is one of several columns this Sunday morning at which my Seven Pillars of Wisdom - Mark, Susan, David, Mancuroc, Ann-Marie, Diana and more (the cast changes daily) are first out, especially at the high visibility columns.
Thanks for your wise thoughts and especially thanks to the non-Verifed who managed to be first after the Pillars, NM from New York who opens with this line: "Maureen, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."
This fits perfectly Susan Anderson's position here and at another column today that one domain in which the Pope is good is the domain of climate change. I guess none of the Republicans wanting to be President are Catholics and thus are under no obligation to listen to him.
Now, PIllars, may I ask that you provide your wisdom at the many columns on the refugee crisis where commenters less wise than you routinely flood the comment side with misinformation and bigotry, none of it soft (using bigotry instead of racism since so many of my fellow Americans think there is only one form of racism, white on black).
Larry
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Thanks for your wise thoughts and especially thanks to the non-Verifed who managed to be first after the Pillars, NM from New York who opens with this line: "Maureen, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."
This fits perfectly Susan Anderson's position here and at another column today that one domain in which the Pope is good is the domain of climate change. I guess none of the Republicans wanting to be President are Catholics and thus are under no obligation to listen to him.
Now, PIllars, may I ask that you provide your wisdom at the many columns on the refugee crisis where commenters less wise than you routinely flood the comment side with misinformation and bigotry, none of it soft (using bigotry instead of racism since so many of my fellow Americans think there is only one form of racism, white on black).
Larry
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
2
Excellent comments, Larry.
2
Hey Larry,
Right on as usual. Thanks.
I heard a really great gospel singing visiting Swedish choir yesterday at the morning meeting of Operation PUSH/Rainbow Coalition. I thanked them for coming and asked about you. I told their leader to tell you hello from me. He seemed to be vaguely familiar with your name. rainbowpush.org
Right on as usual. Thanks.
I heard a really great gospel singing visiting Swedish choir yesterday at the morning meeting of Operation PUSH/Rainbow Coalition. I thanked them for coming and asked about you. I told their leader to tell you hello from me. He seemed to be vaguely familiar with your name. rainbowpush.org
1
I was with you until you mentioned the "door is closed" as relates to women. No wonder the Church is losing followers. Women are instrumental in creating the followers the Church needs and they still have no standing? The Pope wants it both ways....no can do.
5
the Church of Peter might change after both priests and nuns come out of the closet, as was the case with the Gay community, disclose their "forbidden love affairs" and ask to be recognized like the rest of humanity. Our lives are short,
plan accordingly. Closets are for storage, not for people.
plan accordingly. Closets are for storage, not for people.
3
Ms. Dowd has every right to express her disappointment with Pope Francis because he has yet to allow women to become priests...a criticism I happen to agree with. So, in her eyes, this makes Francis "the perfect 19th-century pope."
Somehow, Ms. Down (that was a typo, but I think I will keep it) did not hear the Pope's eloquent plea for the world to begin to alleviate the dire stress we are putting on the planet's climate, and his plea for capitalism to mitigate its greed and selfishness.
To my thinking, both of these proclamations, and others like them, make Pope Francis a great 21st-century pope, because these are two of the most important issues of our time.
So, sorry Ms. Dowd, but I am one person among many who think Francis is a great 21st-century pope.
Is he perfect? Well, let's leave that kind of value judging to Ms. Dowd and her talent for hyperbole.
Somehow, Ms. Down (that was a typo, but I think I will keep it) did not hear the Pope's eloquent plea for the world to begin to alleviate the dire stress we are putting on the planet's climate, and his plea for capitalism to mitigate its greed and selfishness.
To my thinking, both of these proclamations, and others like them, make Pope Francis a great 21st-century pope, because these are two of the most important issues of our time.
So, sorry Ms. Dowd, but I am one person among many who think Francis is a great 21st-century pope.
Is he perfect? Well, let's leave that kind of value judging to Ms. Dowd and her talent for hyperbole.
167
Well said, but Ms. Dowd's "kind of value judging" is not just "hyperbole." May it not also be a useful check to premature victory celebration?
Alleviate stress on the planet by refusing to endorse contraception? More people, more stress on the planet. But also more $$ and more submissive followers for the church.
I agreed with you until your last line. How is it hyperbole that women be treated as equals because we are in every way?
Carly Fiorina, Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, Hilary Clinton, Margaret Thatcher, give the guy a little time, he is still trying to make sense of it all.
You mention only white women. The rest of the world has seen non white women leaders for close to half a century at least!
1
A woman, the Pope, and a bartender walk into a church.
1
Fine. Pope Francis is not perfect as measured on the ideal Liberal scale. I get that. And those with Progressive values are right to hope for more. But OMG, when the *entire* College of [voting] Cardinals was appointed by the hopelessly backward John Paul II and his even more reactionary protégé Benedict XVI, *how* did we get this wonderfully visionary Pope? Where would we be if that College had produced the Pope we should have expected -- another scolding, right-wing JP II or revanchist Ben XVI? Francis does not say or do everything I might hope for, but he has turned the tide and that counts for much with me.
189
It's enough for you, Brian, because you are male.
1
Actually, I think civilization has turned the tide on the Catholic church. Francis is little more than a "nice gesture" from one of the world's most successful power machines that has lost touch, lost assets, lost prestige and yes, lost more power in the last 50 years than at any time since Martin Luther and Henry VIII.
Really, the most outstanding article I have ever read by Mrs. Dowd. I have never read a connection between patriarchy and the sex abuse scandal, but of course they are connected, in more than obvious ways. It is remarkable that this church seeks more power and affluence with such heinous crimes for all to witness. The only explanation is that most people must have little idea how deeply this shatters the victims lives. So that when the pope asks victims for forgiveness, it is not only a farce, but it deeply reinforces just how ignorant and blind the authority is to the enormous depth and breadth of the problem. Grown "men" using God to blackmail children into sex: if Satan exists- can we doubt that this is Satan incarnate? Worse, the church has shown that it very deeply fails to understand the problem- it is utterly clueless- as if prayer and forgiveness alone could do much more than scratch the surface. It is heinous, it is a nightmare from hell- and the church has just how clueless it is about the entire deep psychology of it- it has offered absolutely nothing- zero- in the way of understanding, absolutely no plan, because it is utterly clueless.
3
Thank you so much Maureen. I was just saying to a male friend earlier that while Francis is certainly better than his predecessors, and that I believe he is doing a lot of good, that I simply can never get past his rejection of women playing and equal role in the Catholic church. Even as a young child, I was shocked to learn that women couldn't be priests. And as a young woman, appalled that my mother, who would never deign visit a bank where a woman couldn't be CEO or president, could kneel in front of priests who could only be men. Every time Francis is praised, I wonder - how can a man be praised in this time and place - when he does not believe that women should be on equal footing with men. So thank you for saying what needs to be said.
11
Tolerance,contemplation and soft social issues are less offensive and more politically digestible than the $.78 on the $1.00 issue.
Maureen is right on. For all of the excellent spiritual message that Francis spreads, the Church can never be present and whole until women's equality is established. NEVER. I don't understand why any woman remains Catholic . Most families wouldn't join a club or send their kids to a college where their daughters had no hope of leadership, or of controlling their reproductive health, yet they remain loyal to a Church that de facto derails women's potential and power. It's fascinating.
6
This is a fair critique of Pope Francis and the views of the Roman Catholic hierarchy on the position of women. But the Church is a tremendously conservative institution and cannot be changed wholesale overnight. In this context, Francis has moved forward decisively in a very short period and deserves raise, even if a great deal remains to be done.
3
That should read: deserves praise.
It's impossible to know how far Pope Francis would redirect his boys' club. The men enjoy an extremely comfortable position. Why would they jeopordize it by giving up some of the power and many benefits they enjoy? Allowing women a more involved role would reduce the opportunities for men. The Golden Rule clearly does not apply to the hierarchy of men. The women sacrifice and must understand the ways of men without ever expecting a similar male response. Even the recent invitation for women who have had abortions to finally be welcomed back to the fold comes with the expectation they will acknowledge the sin committed. Should every woman who has had an abortion feel awful about that decision; feel they sinned against creation and God? Apparently the boys believe every woman needs mercy for having an abortion. And, let's not even discuss contraceptives! Surely, in a world crying for population control and vegetation changes which make it uncertain what to expect as the globe warms, family planning is necessary. But, let's not tell the old men's club reality warrants limiting how much we expand the homo sapien population. Yes, women and their leadership possibilities and sexuality (and we didn't mention homosexuality) in the Roman Catholic Church still wait for men who accept the Golden Rule.
150
Maureen, your best column in a long time. Who thought up, "the perfect pope for the 19th century"? That pretty well sums things up. Kenneth Briggs hit the nail on the head with the statement, “People here are ardently projecting a lot of things onto this pope ..." I see comments here about giving the church more time to change... Well, I not going to live to 314 years of age, so I'm not waiting.
7
I, who have no use for any religions, am endless puzzled by what the 'faithful' expect from an elderly Argentine leader of a reactionary medieval anachronism. It seems to me that so many people are setting themselves up for ever more disappointment. The Roman church is not an oasis in the desert. No amount of magical thinking is going to solve humanities' problems. But at least he didn't attack American nuns again.
3
I have left the Catholic religion that has no place for my daughter or me without an ounce of regret. Loyalty must be earned and this religion is as archaic as ultraconservative Judaism and Islam; truly undeserving of my participation. Why would anyone put up with such ridiculous spiritual abuse? I have found a place for spiritual growth in a Church where women participate as equal leaders and celebrants of the Mass. I doubt that the Catholic Religion will ever be up to the task. It's built in male bias is so plain to see. It will take a miracle to change. Pope Francis has a good heart but is unable to see the fault lines or irony in his own words about social justice. The day may come when some future pope gets it. He/She might even advocate for making Mary Madeline an apostle, but probably not in my lifetime. I am truly blessed to have a much healthier unbiased spiritual home on this lovely planet.
237
Sorry to say, its a problem with monotheistic religions for thousands of years that visualize God as male gender. Especially one with flowing white beard sitting up in the clouds. Even Islam and Judaism who claim to worship a faceless God, preference for the male gender is clear and obvious. Odd. How can a parent prefer one child from the other. How can a parent discriminate when it comes to loving one child from the other. What kind of father have these monotheistic religions spun from imagination? Worse, this has been allowed to continue for couple thousand years. Little do the men know that at some point they too were women, guaranteed -- we are all recycled particles taking birth to be homeschooled on planet earth.
You left the Church?
And yet hear you are Jana, conversing in a dialogue with other catholics regarding the leader's visit and why your own personal needs were not being met...
You're still in, kiddo.
When you honestly tune out the catholics, then they won't have any hold over you. like Maureen here... for some reason... you're still seeking something among the catholics.
And yet hear you are Jana, conversing in a dialogue with other catholics regarding the leader's visit and why your own personal needs were not being met...
You're still in, kiddo.
When you honestly tune out the catholics, then they won't have any hold over you. like Maureen here... for some reason... you're still seeking something among the catholics.
Mary "Magdalene"?
Who knows whether charismatic, brilliant Francis is playing a long game with respect to empowering women or whether he's a patronizing, misogynist-with-a-smile advocate for an admirably broad spectrum of fellow misogynists, including the poor. If he is playing a long game, he's playing remarkably slowly: He's radically more supportive of gay men in the clergy than women, with whom he's shown zero willingness to engage about equalizing women's power within the church's dark-age hierarchy. He's fantastic on so many issues, but this one affects half the world's Catholics and reminds me why I could never be Catholic. I remind myself that values of tolerance never include tolerance of intolerance, or those values are meaningless.
170
Any movement appears to be "remarkably slow" when you're dealing with the oldest institution in the world.
Don your history needs updating, oldest institution in the world? The world existed before Christ was born in Nazareth.
1
What Frank says and does affects not just Catholics, unfortunately, but reverberates to harm all women and children.
The Catholic Church, and the Pope, have nothing at all to do with modernity, thank God (and I am not a Catholic).
The great fear of all "modernists" in the West: in the final analysis, the Church will continue to be faithful to its eternal mission, that it in fact will always remain a bulwark against the relentless grinding-down of all timeless institutions and beliefs.
Think of it: tens of millions of adherents in this country alone, and billions around the world-- and it won't ever bow its knee and bend its neck to "modernity". Then will the heathen rage!
The great fear of all "modernists" in the West: in the final analysis, the Church will continue to be faithful to its eternal mission, that it in fact will always remain a bulwark against the relentless grinding-down of all timeless institutions and beliefs.
Think of it: tens of millions of adherents in this country alone, and billions around the world-- and it won't ever bow its knee and bend its neck to "modernity". Then will the heathen rage!
2
If the pope spoke and acted as a racist, the outcry would be deafening. Imagine if he refused to allow people of color into the priesthood. only whites allowed. Would we be hearing--- "oh! well he's moving the church forward as fast as he can-- and look at how he doesn't wear red slippers, so modest how modern " of course not. The response would be outrage. However, Maureen's protests against his sexism are called churlish. I'm reading comments that minimize and patronize ….." now now little girl, look at all he is doing for climate change." His language and actions clearly demonstrate his misogyny , and that of the catholic church.
This man and his institution perpetuate subjugation of women, and therefore violence against women . There should be zero tolerance.
This man and his institution perpetuate subjugation of women, and therefore violence against women . There should be zero tolerance.
415
It's not "his" sexism. It's the structure of the church and he doesn't get to change a centuries old way of being, as he's one man. Francis clearly knows the fault of the church, better than most, and he seems to be going after them. Did you read about his shout-out to the nuns? In NYC (huge audience, yes?). Why protest this gift of a man? Imagine the other possibilities and be grateful that this powerful religion has a thinking, empathetic man as leader. I suspect he's a subversive pope, and though he may not be able to fully change the structure of the church, he's changing it's ethos. What that will mean for women is to be seen. So a bit too early to slam the guy while he's clearly still working...
1
Well stated. But rather rail against the rules of a church, ignore it. Either don't join it or if you are a member and it bothers you, quit and join a different church that has a philosophy consistent with your beliefs. I don't understand the fixation with trying to change a private club's rules.
Paul Vallely is right to point out the culture from which the pope came. Latin American macho ways of viewing the world shaped his youth, which preceded his alleged infallibility. It would indeed be wonderful if he could "get it" about the need for gender equality and find a way to act upon it.
Meanwhile it might be helpful for people to undestand that both genders are human beings and there is good and bad among both, but women are overdue for a chance to truly contribute to governance, values, etc. The Sioux believe women will save the planet. Maybe women should believe that and step up to the task. Not to adopt the male way of being in order to succeed, but to bring the yin to balance the yang that now rules. If we women believe it, it can happen!
Meanwhile it might be helpful for people to undestand that both genders are human beings and there is good and bad among both, but women are overdue for a chance to truly contribute to governance, values, etc. The Sioux believe women will save the planet. Maybe women should believe that and step up to the task. Not to adopt the male way of being in order to succeed, but to bring the yin to balance the yang that now rules. If we women believe it, it can happen!
You do have to wonder how celibate guys and fundamentalist and orthodox religious men get to tell women how to deal with contraception, pregnancy, and family planning, all without including women in their mix. I do like this pope, but would it kill these guys to update the files?
I always thought women were the ones who actually had kids. Do men know this yet or are they going to be surprised to find out?
I always thought women were the ones who actually had kids. Do men know this yet or are they going to be surprised to find out?
414
The Catholic church has yet to come out of the Middle Ages where people believed that men deposited tiny whole people in women who incubated them of nine months.
Come to think of it, some people in this country still think the same thing.
Come to think of it, some people in this country still think the same thing.
I'm not sure there is such a thing as celibate. Maybe asexual.
The Catholic church, like any religion, supports the vestigial need of our yet fully developed minds to accept each other as equals. Insofar as none of us in the history of planetary life has ever asked to be brought into existence we are all equal.
Now and before he became Pope, Jorge Bergoglio is a man and as such shares the same foibles as any man. He is a less obvious symptom wrapped in Papal robes.
Perhaps he, like many of us, is shamed by the fact we were once so dependent on women; that we cried for their sustenance, demanded they clean the filth we left with gentle hands and soothed our weakness with their comforting warmth.
We really don't respect women as equals because we will not bring ourselves to acknowledge, not only our former, but also and more importantly our present dependence.
Pope Francis is no more a 19th Century man than most of us.
Now and before he became Pope, Jorge Bergoglio is a man and as such shares the same foibles as any man. He is a less obvious symptom wrapped in Papal robes.
Perhaps he, like many of us, is shamed by the fact we were once so dependent on women; that we cried for their sustenance, demanded they clean the filth we left with gentle hands and soothed our weakness with their comforting warmth.
We really don't respect women as equals because we will not bring ourselves to acknowledge, not only our former, but also and more importantly our present dependence.
Pope Francis is no more a 19th Century man than most of us.
2
A hundred or two hundred years from now, when the world will have realized that equality for women is an insane idea, our descendants will look back on your article and scoff at the very idea of women priests.
Is that a joke?
1
The good pope does NOT like people carrying guns - especially the highly efficient sort soldiers carry into battle.
However, his own Swiss Guard carry these very weapons around with them, even under their business suits. #Hypocrisy
However, his own Swiss Guard carry these very weapons around with them, even under their business suits. #Hypocrisy
What's the most troubling about the Pope is that there is a pope at all. Why hundreds of millions of people believe in the idiocy that is Christianity is beyond reason. Keep believing in religion and the teachings of a bunch of crooks and and charlatans (who led the church for hundreds of years) and see where it leads you -- to a hole in the ground just like the rest of us. Why don't you all do something more productive with your time than spending it worshiping an institution that advocates the denigration of women among many other things? And let's not even get into the sex abuse scandal, something that Catholics blithely choose to ignore. Maybe helping your fellow man, which is what someone with the initials JC advocated a while back if I remember correctly, would be a more productive exercise for the entire human race.
3
Thank you Tom. Maureen had a sentence that says it all: "The church is in arrested development." Let's not participate. I do agree with Francis on many things, including that women should not enter the priesthood. Men neither. We're halfway there.
The key point here, for me, is the quote that Francis is aware of the issues, but "he seems to have no idea of how to make a solution to work within the orthodox framework of Catholicism." That's because, like most religions, orthodox Catholicism is completely antithetical to gender equality. It's simply not in the Bible, where Paul made clear that women were never to have authority over men. Period. Given this, it's curious that so many people spend so much time and energy and resources trying to get the Church to change, which would require the abandonment of the very source of its existence, when the obvious solution is to just leave the Church and its mistaken, antiquated teachings behind. Because Dowd is right--Francis still believes all of the awful things his predecessors believed about women and gays and sex and much more, it's just that he says it all with a grandfatherly smile. We shouldn't be fooled. The Church may need women, but women most definitely don't need the Church. You can live a more moral and fulfilling life without it, and the sooner we all realize that, the better off we'll be.
363
Very well said. As a once upon a time Catholic, born into the faith, who has been an atheist for many years, I can attest that one can live a fulfilling, moral life without religion. I am an 87 years old woman, who thinks it is much more important to have a generosity of spirit and kindness to al,l than believe in any god. You may believe in one god or many gods or none at all, however, eventually true humaneness comes down to how you treat all living things around you. I admire this Pope for teaching the "social gospel", but certainly do not want to return to the church.
1
I think Jesus himself honored women the same as men, all humans as children of God. Later disciples misinterpreted his teachings about women and distorted views have existed since then in the name of orthodoxy.
1
Paul is irrelevant, talking about his own vision.
In his exhortations to revere the unity of the traditional family, Francis implicitly rejected the concept of same-sex parents as heads of households. The simple addition of the phrase "in any form" after "family" would have rejected the prejudice that he still espouses, regardless of his previous lip-service about "who am I to judge" when it comes to gay people.
Surely you must know that Argentina has had two women as President, plus Evita as a political icon. Or that the percentage of women in the Argentine Congress is much higher than in the U.S. So what do you actually mean when you say: "from a macho, Latin American cultural background who has limited understanding of the women." Or are you just putting ignorance and prejudice ahead of facts?
5
I gotta hand it to you, Maureen. There ain't nobody that don't get beat up in your columns - except perhaps Donald Trump! And now, what are your thoughts about Jesus Christ?
4
Strawberries on the cake sounds like the title of an erotic flick.
Sexist.
Sexist.
4
The issue of women in the church has a near 2000 year history of neglect. No issue could be more visible than this and none could be more resistant to change. The Protestant denominations that ordain women as priests have been working on the issue for 400 year give or take a century. The Pope's focus on Jesus' priorities may be the key to opening the minds and hearts of men who have mothers, sisters, daughters, and women serving in every capacity in Western society. I think it is remarkable that he has made issues of the most important issues facing the Church and the planet. He is one man. That is true even as the Pope. I have two daughters and they are my legacy. I would rather he focus on what he has this past week and plan a strategy for women's futures.
3
Mo,
Right on. And was not Jesus married to Mary Magdalan who was also one of his Apostles and included in that famous painting of the Last Supper next to Jesus? Of course, Rome took took all references in the Bible stories to these facts in the early years once the Church was based in Rome after Constantine.
Right on. And was not Jesus married to Mary Magdalan who was also one of his Apostles and included in that famous painting of the Last Supper next to Jesus? Of course, Rome took took all references in the Bible stories to these facts in the early years once the Church was based in Rome after Constantine.
2
It's still there.
The wedding at Cana was Joshua's (Jesus) wedding to Miriam Magdalena.
The ritual in that story is exceptionally Jewish (Jesus was a Jewish man), hence it escapes the prying eyes of mediocre Sunday School experts.
The wedding at Cana was Joshua's (Jesus) wedding to Miriam Magdalena.
The ritual in that story is exceptionally Jewish (Jesus was a Jewish man), hence it escapes the prying eyes of mediocre Sunday School experts.
Ms. Dowd, I think you don't get Pope Francis just like you never got President Obama. They are both wise and pragmatic. You have to pick your battles. He is trying to enlist the trending to rightwing arm of the church. He would lose them if he pushes for women priests for sure. Getting them to acknowledge the greatest threats faced by humanity has to take precedence. Although I do find fault with his lack of support for non-abortive birth control to be very disappointing.
4
The nature of the priesthood is masculine and male. Females can never become Roman Catholic Christian priests because the personhood of The Lord Jesus Christ was, is and always will be totally Male.
Women excel in many areas that men cannot such as having children. Women have a unique vocation in having children that men cannot perform.
Women are free to become nuns and sisters as well as volunteers who assist priests and brothers in churches. Performing a role as a nun, a mother or a Catholic sister is a noble and excellent vocation that the male Catholic hierarchy has generously chosen to permit.
Ms. Dowd has outlined the essence of the debate but the answer is now and always will be that at an intrinsic and profoundly deep way--women cannot perform the role of Persona Christi because Jesus Christ is a Man.
Women excel in many areas that men cannot such as having children. Women have a unique vocation in having children that men cannot perform.
Women are free to become nuns and sisters as well as volunteers who assist priests and brothers in churches. Performing a role as a nun, a mother or a Catholic sister is a noble and excellent vocation that the male Catholic hierarchy has generously chosen to permit.
Ms. Dowd has outlined the essence of the debate but the answer is now and always will be that at an intrinsic and profoundly deep way--women cannot perform the role of Persona Christi because Jesus Christ is a Man.
1
Gender was not his essence it was personhood, humanity if you will. Women are that and more. In addition, Mary Madeline was, prior to Council of Nicia, considered an apostle, which could and did ordain bishops. And create the church. In the gnostic gospels she was even first among apostles. But the completely macho Roman culture got ahold of it and twisted it. It's time to reaurect the church of Christ and not the romanized version.
1
Not sure Christ would agree with you on that. Seems to me his legacy is that all should strive to do his work. The argument here is that men morphed Christ's teachings into their version of how to hold power over others (think if Bishops, etc.). Christ would have rejected that model completely.
Popes in the past had the courage to define Catholic practice by speaking "infallibly" so there is no reason this Pope cannot speak on "natural law."
Just as the old Church decided its concept of the "physical world" had to be compatible with astronomy and physics -- this Pope must come to realize in today's world the Church's view of "natural law" must match our centuries more advanced view of biology.
Nothing he proclaims to be "un" natural" is in fact so. The modern world is replete with phenomena that would be witchcraft or the work of the devil in olden days. All the practices we use to restart a stopped heart clearly wouldn't have been natural in 100AD. In doing so we are clearly defying god's intention. Conjoined-twins are not "normal," yet we don't think they are living in sin.
Preventing a sperm and egg from uniting is so different than wearing a seatbelt. Doing so clearly is an attempt to avoid be "open to death" and death is said to be part of god's plan.
Killing a multi-celled system that results from a sperm and egg from uniting is not really different in removing a tumor. Both are "living." Neither are human beings. The former is not yet even a "being."
It's time to stop the focus on child abuse, liberal nuns, and women priests. Sorry Maureen, but these women problems, are but side-effects that come from the Pope's toxic view of view of what's good and what's bad (sin) human behavior.
Francis must focus inward on the Church's sins against mankind.
Just as the old Church decided its concept of the "physical world" had to be compatible with astronomy and physics -- this Pope must come to realize in today's world the Church's view of "natural law" must match our centuries more advanced view of biology.
Nothing he proclaims to be "un" natural" is in fact so. The modern world is replete with phenomena that would be witchcraft or the work of the devil in olden days. All the practices we use to restart a stopped heart clearly wouldn't have been natural in 100AD. In doing so we are clearly defying god's intention. Conjoined-twins are not "normal," yet we don't think they are living in sin.
Preventing a sperm and egg from uniting is so different than wearing a seatbelt. Doing so clearly is an attempt to avoid be "open to death" and death is said to be part of god's plan.
Killing a multi-celled system that results from a sperm and egg from uniting is not really different in removing a tumor. Both are "living." Neither are human beings. The former is not yet even a "being."
It's time to stop the focus on child abuse, liberal nuns, and women priests. Sorry Maureen, but these women problems, are but side-effects that come from the Pope's toxic view of view of what's good and what's bad (sin) human behavior.
Francis must focus inward on the Church's sins against mankind.
1
@Sitakata
The whole point of Natural Law is that it is by definition Immutable i.e. unchanging, fixed, unalterable. So-called discoveries in science merely enhance the reality that though humans can tinker with Natural Law via temporary alterations--in the same way that the Third Law of Newton or Gravity can be temporarily altered or the appearance of altered via jet propulsion--ultimately Immutable Laws cannot be altered in any lasting way.
The whole point of Natural Law is that it is by definition Immutable i.e. unchanging, fixed, unalterable. So-called discoveries in science merely enhance the reality that though humans can tinker with Natural Law via temporary alterations--in the same way that the Third Law of Newton or Gravity can be temporarily altered or the appearance of altered via jet propulsion--ultimately Immutable Laws cannot be altered in any lasting way.
"... humans can tinker with Natural Law via temporary alterations ..."
1) The "law of gravity" you speak of is not ALTERED by jet propulsion. It remains fully in effect even when a larger force is applied to an object. Force doesn't alter or tinker with a physical law. You misunderstand science.
Your concept of that Laws can not be altered in any "lasting way" reflects this error in your understanding of science.
2) If god's nature had such LAWS man would not be able to "tinker" with them. By definition, a LAW cannot be altered.
You also don't understand "natural Law." Look up the word "immutable."
1) The "law of gravity" you speak of is not ALTERED by jet propulsion. It remains fully in effect even when a larger force is applied to an object. Force doesn't alter or tinker with a physical law. You misunderstand science.
Your concept of that Laws can not be altered in any "lasting way" reflects this error in your understanding of science.
2) If god's nature had such LAWS man would not be able to "tinker" with them. By definition, a LAW cannot be altered.
You also don't understand "natural Law." Look up the word "immutable."
he nonsensically canonized Father Juníipero Serra, a missionary agent for the Spanish empire in California, a man who flogged Native Americans who broke the rules of Catholic teachings.
-----------------------------------------------
Ironically, he referred to how the pilgrims came to a land owned and occupied by the Natives uninvited and "illegally" and how they abused the Natives by taking their land and their rights before canonizing Father Juníipero Serra, the quintessential abuser of Native Americans.
As long as the 24/7 news media are willing to fawn on his Holiness, and as long as there are throngs of religious types wanting to go through stringent security checks and wait hours to see him at the Garden, he will have the last laugh on the issues of child abuse and subjugation of women in the Church.
It is ironic to the point of tragic that the institutional head who believes Maria to be superior to her son Jesus would declare that 'the door is closed' on the issue of female priests.
Enough of this pope-mania.
-----------------------------------------------
Ironically, he referred to how the pilgrims came to a land owned and occupied by the Natives uninvited and "illegally" and how they abused the Natives by taking their land and their rights before canonizing Father Juníipero Serra, the quintessential abuser of Native Americans.
As long as the 24/7 news media are willing to fawn on his Holiness, and as long as there are throngs of religious types wanting to go through stringent security checks and wait hours to see him at the Garden, he will have the last laugh on the issues of child abuse and subjugation of women in the Church.
It is ironic to the point of tragic that the institutional head who believes Maria to be superior to her son Jesus would declare that 'the door is closed' on the issue of female priests.
Enough of this pope-mania.
4
Jeeze, he has to be perfect. Why doesn't Down celebrate the fact that this is the first pope who can sense the world is on the fast track to self-destruction.
5
Uh huh.
Well, no one's perfect, no one's without error or sin, and Francis returns to these points with heroic insistence.
We're the better for him.
Well, no one's perfect, no one's without error or sin, and Francis returns to these points with heroic insistence.
We're the better for him.
6
Strange to think that women are going to be ordained as priests, if not in this generation than in the next. I've spent my life watching the world recognize women in one way after another. The current Pope probably feels grateful this is not the his battle but that of a future Pope. I hope he smiles when he dreams of this.
1
Women priests? Sure. But with humankind on the path to extinction because of the destruction of our environment, how much does it really matter? Francis has focused his energy and attention on the seminal event of our time - climate change - and unless that problem is dealt with urgently, it doesn't matter whether we have Obamacare or equal rights for women and blacks. We are doomed, Ms. Dowd. Try spending some time on that subject.
1
The Catholic Church position on birth control is cruel and unusual, even for first century dogma. The power players are, by definition, sexually aberrant men. All of whom want women perpetually pregnant. Lest they have the time and energy to topple the boy’s club pecking order. And that doesn’t begin to address the planet gagging problems with the inevitable lab rat life style now endured by China’s urban multitudes.
4
Capital punishment, income and wealth inequality, war -- Bad! Peace, love, charity -- Good! I didn't need a pope to validate this and trust that you didn't either, Maureen.
Yours is indeed a courageous column, as you're definitely swimming upstream against what has seemed a quasi-universal media infatuation with Pope Francis. However, I feel much as you do, apparently, that we shouldn't let the "spoonful of sugar" of an endearing, magnanimous, or saintly presentation obscure the reality that some of us might still be choking on the "medicine." (That bitter formula seemingly remains unchanged.)
I marveled at an earlier comment -- It was regarding another article -- in which the commenter proudly pointed out that the Catholic Church "believes" in the Theory of Evolution. To such I can only respond that, yes, the Church accepts the inevitability of evolution... for everything in existence, perhaps, except itself!
Yours is indeed a courageous column, as you're definitely swimming upstream against what has seemed a quasi-universal media infatuation with Pope Francis. However, I feel much as you do, apparently, that we shouldn't let the "spoonful of sugar" of an endearing, magnanimous, or saintly presentation obscure the reality that some of us might still be choking on the "medicine." (That bitter formula seemingly remains unchanged.)
I marveled at an earlier comment -- It was regarding another article -- in which the commenter proudly pointed out that the Catholic Church "believes" in the Theory of Evolution. To such I can only respond that, yes, the Church accepts the inevitability of evolution... for everything in existence, perhaps, except itself!
3
I was raised a Catholic -- eight years of nuns in grade school -- and have never quite recovered…. (Kidding. I think.) I'm an atheist, never bought into the whole thing even when I was six years old. But, notwithstanding the faults outlined by the writer, it's hard to dispute that Francis nailed it in this visit. In the end, the world is starving for love and peace. And this humble old man brought a message of love and peace that appeals to all, regardless of religion, nationality, whether or not you're pro-choice, against the death penalty, support women in the priesthood, Democrat, Republican, etc. People just want peace, love, happiness, freedom, a better future. It sounds hokey, but seeing that fragile old man surrounded by so much joy the past few days offered such a nice respite from all the vile news we've been seeing in American politics and world affairs in recent weeks.
5
Nice to have a little critical commentary, in the midst of all the romantic comedy re: subject. Thanks!
3
Its true, the catholic church is led by a macho society, rigidly opposed to women playing a major role, remaining subservient and, it is hoped, to remain silent while doing the actual work of serving the poor. It must be remembered that the bible was written eons ago, most likely by ignorant, hence prejudiced, men, creating a God to their liking and human-like and not a stranger for rage, jelousy and freak control of every individual's thoughts and action. How arrogant of us to imagine such a god, and attributing him/her virtues that come naturally to any human being...without the intolerance imposed by dogma. The pope, supposedly 'infallible' in matters of faith, a very nice man otherwise, has gotten stuck in the Middle Ages where superstition and make-believe magic was the order of the day. And, in spite of the fact we all are sexual beings, sex remains a taboo and even the 'devil's work', hence, requiring Jesus to be born to a virgin (i.e. without sexual intercourse, perhaps by way of in- vitro fertilization?). Fortunately, women do know by instinct that they hold the keys of our survival and well-being; they always have; and they never brag about it. The 'golden rule' is supposed to be universal and equal for all; but it seems that some of us are more equal than others (a contradiction of terms, or hypocrisy?).
1
Ms. Dowd: This is the kind of smart and thoughtful column that you used to write regularly and which I very much admired. But then you either ran out of things to say or decided it was easier to phone in snarky, intellectually lazy, mean girl attacks on Bill and Hillary Clinton and "Barry" Obama. I hope to see more columns like this one in the future.
8
I doubt that the Pope would have earned so much sarcasm from Dowd if he didn't have the gift of inspiring even people who aren't Catholic.
If you think he deserves to be castigated for failing to reform the RCC, fine, but don't be blind to the example of personal humility he sets. You don't have to agree with the Church to find in Francis a non-hostile attitude toward non-Catholics that stands in stark contrast to the smug, judgmental and deeply uncharitable attitude that characterizes so many high-profile religious (and political) leaders in the U.S.
If you think he deserves to be castigated for failing to reform the RCC, fine, but don't be blind to the example of personal humility he sets. You don't have to agree with the Church to find in Francis a non-hostile attitude toward non-Catholics that stands in stark contrast to the smug, judgmental and deeply uncharitable attitude that characterizes so many high-profile religious (and political) leaders in the U.S.
4
It's hard for this non-believer to criticize the pope who has frustrated conservatives and made them complain that there is suddenly too much religion in politics. But Dowd is right that the biggest weakness of the pope is his refusal to try to change the role of women in his church. He could at least have spoken out against the stupid Catholic ban on contraception, which was seriously considered by church leaders in the 1950s and 1960s. As most know by now, contraception is used by about 90 percent of American women. Widespread affordable use of birth control and family planning cuts down on poverty and prevents myriad abortions. It may be a bridge too far right now for the pope to preach that the priesthood should be open to women, but he could take this first step toward sexual sanity by allowing contraception (and call off the nuns who are endangering Obamacare).
8
I'm a non-practicing Catholic and admire Pope Francis, but I won't return to the church until all priests can marry and women can become priests.
5
Just an oberservation, the Churchmen wear luscious robes at the front, the Churchwomen wear dowdy dresses at the sideline.
9
I can't see where women becoming priests would do anything constructive. It does not make a man superior or women inferior. We have a more nurturing role which has always been good enough for me. Many of the laws of the church are church laws, as opposed to God's law, and could be changed, but it would be chaos to do it all at once. As a Catholic, I was often told by parish priests to follow my conscience on issues and that is what I do. Thus I am pro-life but also pro-gay rights and pro-contraception. I feel the most constructive and helpful thing the Pope could do would be to allow priests to marry. The main thing the church teaches is love, love of God, love and respect of ourselves, and love of our fellow humans and the animals. "Do unto others..." For those who don't understand that, Catholicism is always going to be something they don't get and feel the need to criticize. In my darkest moments, I have felt comforted knowing God was in my life, and that Catholicism was the manner I chose to relate to my God, but that's a personal thing. I wish that type of comfort, in whatever manner, to everyone.
No, the most constructive and LOVING thing the church could do is to allow and ENCOURAGE the use of contraception. Until then, the pope's expressed "love" for women, especially poor women, is hollow and meaningless!
1
I keep thinking that the solution to a lot of the poverty problems screams for world wide universal BIRTH CONTROL!!! Come on women! Help your sisters! Scream "BIRTH CONTROL!" The Pope could have thrown condoms from the Pope Mobil. Now that would have saved also of souls.
10
I always enjoy Dowd's columns, whether she's skewering HRC's phony sincerity or calling out the Catholic Church. Liberals everywhere are falling all over themselves, to praise il Papa, yet the same catechisms exist under Francis: no same-sex marriage, priests must be single males, no abortion or contraception, etc. One theme remains true about Francis: the belief in God, that Jesus was his Son and the Holy Spirit is imbued in his flock. To think otherwise is folly, for better or worse....
1
Most Catholic priests will agree that the church would cease to function if women stopped volunteering their services. Catholic nuns for decades taught in parochial schools for very low compensation and little to no benefits for things such as retirement. Clergy would always remind these talented women that they are "doing the Lord's work & the Lord will provide."
Most priests today are afraid to deal with 21st century women who challenge their system for power,prestige and possessions as well as their disregard for the sacred feminine that protects the vulnerable. Also,most priests have the emotional I.Q. of 14 year old boys due to their sheltered life living with celibate males in a seminary.
For these reasons, it is highly unlikely that the Roman Catholic Church will ever welcome women's gifts that the Holy Spirit bestows for pastoral ministry and church leadership. To stifle a person's God-given gifts for the purpose of earthly control over another is spiritual abuse of the worst kind and certainly a mortal sin.
Time to move on my sisters in Christ. The Holy Spirit is guiding us to re-imagine the Christian Community in light of Christ's example of respecting all gifts of women and men.
Most priests today are afraid to deal with 21st century women who challenge their system for power,prestige and possessions as well as their disregard for the sacred feminine that protects the vulnerable. Also,most priests have the emotional I.Q. of 14 year old boys due to their sheltered life living with celibate males in a seminary.
For these reasons, it is highly unlikely that the Roman Catholic Church will ever welcome women's gifts that the Holy Spirit bestows for pastoral ministry and church leadership. To stifle a person's God-given gifts for the purpose of earthly control over another is spiritual abuse of the worst kind and certainly a mortal sin.
Time to move on my sisters in Christ. The Holy Spirit is guiding us to re-imagine the Christian Community in light of Christ's example of respecting all gifts of women and men.
7
Catholic priests seem to mix up the ideas of homosexuality and celibacy, the one does not equal the other.
1
I'll take whatever progress I can get, but it's so often too little, too late. Clinton, Obama, Francis- better than the alternatives but unable to break through the status quo in a transformative way.
1
I too feel silenced like Father McClure, by your moderators at the Times.
I have a message that has once been rejected and never appeared and I hope you will publish me.
To start, congratulations on an entirely relevant and well researched topic. Let me turn your sour grapes into sweet wine.
Sometimes a controversial and labored topic has to be approached with a simple observation that anyone can understand, and presented with humor, which was incidentally, invented by God, and convert controversy into universal acceptance.
I make the following observation.....................
If all the Priests, Brothers, Sisters, Monsignors, Bishops, Archbishops, Cardinals, and even the Pope wear garments that appear to be just like dresses, why can't women be Priests as well as men? What is left? A Face to be seen with modesty preserved? And what of any natural attraction? Ask God. He invented it so it must be OK.
Frankly, the world needs the peaceful stable influence of women to quell the aggressors of the mans world plagued by hatred, anger and violence.
And yes, the question of celibacy and the art of meditation; Social reality indicates women are more capable of celibacy than men as we all know, and I like to think women are smarter than men at times. They are entirely capable of Priestly celibacy and meditation free from the rigors of marriage or relationships.
I support women as ideal candidates for the priesthood, callers to the faith, and workers of God.
I have a message that has once been rejected and never appeared and I hope you will publish me.
To start, congratulations on an entirely relevant and well researched topic. Let me turn your sour grapes into sweet wine.
Sometimes a controversial and labored topic has to be approached with a simple observation that anyone can understand, and presented with humor, which was incidentally, invented by God, and convert controversy into universal acceptance.
I make the following observation.....................
If all the Priests, Brothers, Sisters, Monsignors, Bishops, Archbishops, Cardinals, and even the Pope wear garments that appear to be just like dresses, why can't women be Priests as well as men? What is left? A Face to be seen with modesty preserved? And what of any natural attraction? Ask God. He invented it so it must be OK.
Frankly, the world needs the peaceful stable influence of women to quell the aggressors of the mans world plagued by hatred, anger and violence.
And yes, the question of celibacy and the art of meditation; Social reality indicates women are more capable of celibacy than men as we all know, and I like to think women are smarter than men at times. They are entirely capable of Priestly celibacy and meditation free from the rigors of marriage or relationships.
I support women as ideal candidates for the priesthood, callers to the faith, and workers of God.
1
I'm a seriously fallen away Catholic.
I love this man. Every one I talk with loves this man.
Is there anything left in life that does not bring out your dark side?
I love this man. Every one I talk with loves this man.
Is there anything left in life that does not bring out your dark side?
2
My take on the "tailgating" nuns is a bit different from what I've read in press reports. I assumed they did it more out of necessity than by choice. It appeared they were too frugal, or did not have enough money, to buy a meal at a decent restaurant in Washington so they prepared their meals before they left their residences.
My assumptions fit in better with Ms. Dowd's article than the assumption by some that a number of really cool nuns tailgated outside the gates of a cathedral before the big event began.
My assumptions fit in better with Ms. Dowd's article than the assumption by some that a number of really cool nuns tailgated outside the gates of a cathedral before the big event began.
3
Ms. Dowd presents a rare and sober assessment of the impact of Pope Francis in redirecting the dialogue and social climate in the Catholic Church, particularly here in America. She also, courageously asserts that for all of his gifts of humanity and humility, he needs to be challenged to dignify and empower women to true equality of opportunity, access and leadership in the clerical and lay ranks. Failing this, Francis will have failed to represent the inspiration for healing and justice that his Church (his flock) so deeply hopes for, needs and deserves.
1
The age -old answer we get from the Church is that all the apostles were men, therefore, only men can serve as priests.
But behold - all the apostles were local people who came from a Jewish background. So using the same logic, only converted Jews could serve as Catholic priests.
But behold - all the apostles were local people who came from a Jewish background. So using the same logic, only converted Jews could serve as Catholic priests.
3
A 2,000 year old institution doesn't change overnight; otherwise it wouldn't be here any longer.
1
The earth is at least 4.5 billion years old. 2000 years is just a blink.
1
“If only the pope could apply this Golden Rule: Do unto women as you would have them do unto you.”
For all we know, Pope Francis may be doing exactly that.
It is commonly recognized that the Vatican has for centuries denied women equal rights.
However, Pope Francis may understandably believe that neither his “magnetic, magnanimous personality,” nor the collective power of Catholic women are a match to those entrenched within a Vatican that “stubbornly clings to its archaic practice of treating women as a lower caste,” without an internal debate within the Vatican itself that would set the stage for making a major reform.
In this sense, Pope Francis may be doing unto Catholic women what he would have them do unto him, avoiding a precipitous confrontation with a stubborn Vatican, which neither Pope Francis nor Catholic women may win.
More than anyone else, Pope Francis must also know that the church is “stained by the vile sex abuse scandal.”
By condemning these abuses forcefully, openly and unhesitatingly, however, and by emphasizing social and economic justice for all, diplomacy over wars and preserving the earth for future generations, Pope Francis does indeed make these humanitarian teachings very appealing.
That, however, may not necessarily make religious institutions themselves, with all the baggage they have accumulated over the centuries, “attractive to people.”
Most people seem to draw a distinction between Pope Francis and the church.
For all we know, Pope Francis may be doing exactly that.
It is commonly recognized that the Vatican has for centuries denied women equal rights.
However, Pope Francis may understandably believe that neither his “magnetic, magnanimous personality,” nor the collective power of Catholic women are a match to those entrenched within a Vatican that “stubbornly clings to its archaic practice of treating women as a lower caste,” without an internal debate within the Vatican itself that would set the stage for making a major reform.
In this sense, Pope Francis may be doing unto Catholic women what he would have them do unto him, avoiding a precipitous confrontation with a stubborn Vatican, which neither Pope Francis nor Catholic women may win.
More than anyone else, Pope Francis must also know that the church is “stained by the vile sex abuse scandal.”
By condemning these abuses forcefully, openly and unhesitatingly, however, and by emphasizing social and economic justice for all, diplomacy over wars and preserving the earth for future generations, Pope Francis does indeed make these humanitarian teachings very appealing.
That, however, may not necessarily make religious institutions themselves, with all the baggage they have accumulated over the centuries, “attractive to people.”
Most people seem to draw a distinction between Pope Francis and the church.
5
Thanks for a dose of perspective. Beyond the cult of personality, nothing much has changed, and these strange men will not likely come up with a way things could change while also never having to admit they've been wrong all along about nearly everything.
I've harped on this to a few people this week, only to have it fall on deaf ears. Let us also not forget that in all of his chimes about equality, he spoke out not only against equality for women, but also for equality for gay marriages.
1
Many Catholic women are very content with the direction the Church is taking and don't want to be priests. There are so many activities a woman can perform in the Church such as reading from the altar, distributing Holy Communication and taking up the collection. I have done all three and enjoy assisting my Church when needed. I do not want to be a priest and those women who do would be smart to join a Protestant religion where this is allowed. I am not being flippant but just making a suggestion.
3
I have to say I agree. I do think women should have a meaningful role, but I've never felt that could only be fulfilled by their entering the priesthood. It would mean far more to me if priests were allowed to marry.
But how, in 2015, can he continue to condone the idea that women should have no voice in church decisions?....
Well, I suppose he believes the world wasn't built in a day. It took a full six, right? So give him time and see what his legacy will be before you dismiss him. He's not hazardous; he's change to believe in way more than the other guy.
This doesn't feel like a real issue, frankly. Catholicism is a belief system and you don't have to follow it, so why demand it change to your point of view? I was Catholic, am female, and just don't care about women in the church (because this one ain't). Everyone knows the nuns do the real work of the church anyway, even Francis. Overall, I disagree; he's not 19th century at all. He's remarkably, refreshingly modern, inclusive, and the church will be way healthier when he is done. It will still be Catholic, though.
Well, I suppose he believes the world wasn't built in a day. It took a full six, right? So give him time and see what his legacy will be before you dismiss him. He's not hazardous; he's change to believe in way more than the other guy.
This doesn't feel like a real issue, frankly. Catholicism is a belief system and you don't have to follow it, so why demand it change to your point of view? I was Catholic, am female, and just don't care about women in the church (because this one ain't). Everyone knows the nuns do the real work of the church anyway, even Francis. Overall, I disagree; he's not 19th century at all. He's remarkably, refreshingly modern, inclusive, and the church will be way healthier when he is done. It will still be Catholic, though.
1
Can I take back my comment? I started thinking about other so-called religions and their doctrines and attitudes toward women (Islam or at least the Taliban, ISIS, the merry wives of Mormons, etc.) - and it's all wrong. Dowd is correct to see a lack of power for women -- anywhere -- as a problem.
The structure of the church as we know it is not, as far as I know, designed explicitly by Christ. He didn't say, Guys only, keep this going for me until my second coming. I still think that Pope Francis might be leading us away from the model, but he's not about to bring the entire house down while also rebuilding it. One day at a time.
The structure of the church as we know it is not, as far as I know, designed explicitly by Christ. He didn't say, Guys only, keep this going for me until my second coming. I still think that Pope Francis might be leading us away from the model, but he's not about to bring the entire house down while also rebuilding it. One day at a time.
1
Fitting that the Pope stayed over Saturday night just outside Philly at Saint Charles Borromeo Seminary, named for the cardinal who led the rebellion against the reformation. Supposedly, even his dead remains resulted in instantaneous miracles as those coming into contact with them were healed of their maladies. Oh, and let's not forget the immediate past and soon to be future of the Seminary. Built to indoctrinate hundreds of aspiring Catholic clergy men (never women), it suffered decimation of its ranks in the aftermath of the clerical child abuse scandals. The Philadelphia Archbishop vacated his unaffordable mansion and moved to the Seminary. And the Seminary has retreated to a fraction of its former home, with the remainder of its property up for bids to real estate developers -- for non-denominational purposes.
With all of the immense good that the Pope has showered on the United States, to end his trip with a nit picking opportunity to undue all of his immense strengthening of people's faith & courage to stand up the powerful in Washington criticizing Capitalism & making a plea to nurture Mother Earth to prevent climate change apparently fell on deaf ears including Catholic women emancipator in chief Maureen Dowd. If Babe Ruth, "The Sultan of Swat", was batting .4 she'd complain that he didn't understand the feminine mystique of the wooden bat. Perhaps if Abe Lincoln was reincarnated and gave a speech about family values & the need to focus on equal rights for immigrants & all oppressed peoples of the world at Lincoln Center, she'd complain that he didn't focus enough on women's reproductive rights. FYI, Ms. Dowd, the Catholic church is a very Conservative institution so when the Pope says that Mary is the Mother of God, this is about as feminist as a religious leader can get. Granted, he hasn't supported enough jobs for women within the hierarchy of the church, although let's cut him some slack since he's the first Pope to introduce the concept of leniency on divorce, introduce the possibility of acceptance of gay marriage & lead the world regarding the evils of consumerism & Capitalism which go hand in hand. Of course this leadership in modernity is not enough for Ms. Dowd who believes that instead of baby steps, the Pope should leap into full blown feminism ala Beyonce'.
3
Maureen expects too much from one man.
2
I love Pope Francis.
I love his message of caring for the poor, sick and aged and putting limits on unfettered capitalism.
I love his message of humility, acting as a proper steward of the environment, and reducing wealth inequality.
I don't need him to validate my same sex marriage. I'm fine without that.
Very few Catholics follow the Church completely or even mostly.
They use birth control, they have sex before marriage, they get divorced, they marry same sex partners.
But the message of loving God and treating one's neighbor as we would like to be treated still resonates.
The message of forgoing vengeance and withholding judgement still holds true.
When Jesus was confronted by a mob who said the old law said it was necessary to stone an adulteress to death, Jesus said let the person without sin throw the first stone.
Jesus said take the log out of one's own eye to better see the speck in your neighbor's eye.
He said it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
He said the old law of an eye for an eye was wrong, and it was better to turn the other cheek when struck.
To the extent Jesus and Christianity lends itself to politics, it is decidedly leftist.
Only those who look to religion for identity politics see a right wing turn and reduce it to a couple of issues with blinders on.
I love his message of caring for the poor, sick and aged and putting limits on unfettered capitalism.
I love his message of humility, acting as a proper steward of the environment, and reducing wealth inequality.
I don't need him to validate my same sex marriage. I'm fine without that.
Very few Catholics follow the Church completely or even mostly.
They use birth control, they have sex before marriage, they get divorced, they marry same sex partners.
But the message of loving God and treating one's neighbor as we would like to be treated still resonates.
The message of forgoing vengeance and withholding judgement still holds true.
When Jesus was confronted by a mob who said the old law said it was necessary to stone an adulteress to death, Jesus said let the person without sin throw the first stone.
Jesus said take the log out of one's own eye to better see the speck in your neighbor's eye.
He said it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
He said the old law of an eye for an eye was wrong, and it was better to turn the other cheek when struck.
To the extent Jesus and Christianity lends itself to politics, it is decidedly leftist.
Only those who look to religion for identity politics see a right wing turn and reduce it to a couple of issues with blinders on.
6
Ah, Maureen, have a little faith. As a Jesuit told me, there will come a time, when the bishops and cardinals will be called to Rome for a big event, and they will be allowed to bring their husbands.
The banning of women from the priesthood is not dogma but tradition, and tradition can change. The change may or may not come in my lifetime, but it will come.
Pope Francis's words on religious women during Vespers at St. Patrick's in NYC brought the entire audience to their feet with resounding applause. People know who does the apostolic works day in and day out.
The ordination of women to the priesthood will be a welcome event for the Church, i.e, the People in the Pews. Likewise, married ordained clergy will be welcomed and accepted. The only block in opposition will be the misogynistic elements that currently abound in the hierarchy. But they are dying off. Change will come.
The banning of women from the priesthood is not dogma but tradition, and tradition can change. The change may or may not come in my lifetime, but it will come.
Pope Francis's words on religious women during Vespers at St. Patrick's in NYC brought the entire audience to their feet with resounding applause. People know who does the apostolic works day in and day out.
The ordination of women to the priesthood will be a welcome event for the Church, i.e, the People in the Pews. Likewise, married ordained clergy will be welcomed and accepted. The only block in opposition will be the misogynistic elements that currently abound in the hierarchy. But they are dying off. Change will come.
Yes, the Pope has a blind spot about the role of women. A cradle Catholic, I have no intention of returning to a church that treats women as something less, that reserves all authority for men, and that remains at least 100 years behind the movement of the spirit of fairness and equality.
I had hopes that this Pope would be slightly more enlightened. Alas, he is trapped in the milieu of his time and his institution.
I had hopes that this Pope would be slightly more enlightened. Alas, he is trapped in the milieu of his time and his institution.
7
During this past week as I watched the Pope speak I was feeling much better being a Catholic. However, I still had an uneasy feeling about the current church. After reading Maureen Dowd's column and some of the comments, I suddenly realized my uneasiness stemmed from the fact that the Catholic Church is still hopelessly outdated in its views on womanhood and sexuality. While Catholic cardinals and bishops may have different views on social issues, they are universal in their views on treating women as second class citizens and sexuality. The Catholic Church is incapable of addressing this issue given the traditional leadership. Catholics especially females must demand equal treatment and take appropriate actions to make the Church respond.
5
Pope Francis seems like a kind and holy man. That he is kinder and more approachable than his predecessors is not much of a compliment, but his humility is refreshing, and he's certainly more tolerant than the previous popes.
The public approval he is getting is certainly more uplifting than crowds attracted to Donald Trump or football games or pop singers - people are attracted to his goodness.
But until the Catholic Church recognizes equality between men and women and accepts that the wonders of modern medicine includes regulating fertility I'm not coming back.
Cue the holier than thou Catholics telling me they don't want me back.
The public approval he is getting is certainly more uplifting than crowds attracted to Donald Trump or football games or pop singers - people are attracted to his goodness.
But until the Catholic Church recognizes equality between men and women and accepts that the wonders of modern medicine includes regulating fertility I'm not coming back.
Cue the holier than thou Catholics telling me they don't want me back.
9
Well I say, good for you.
While Pope Francis does seems more sincerely compassionate and less judgmental than those who preceded him or those who surround him, he does appear to have a blind spot when it comes to women and their right to control their own bodies and thus their own destinies.
I can understand why the church opposes abortion, but to oppose abortion AND contraception is imposing a form of cruel and unusual punishment on young Catholic women, especially young poor women, who should have access to reproductive health. services. It's time to change that rule now!
While Pope Francis does seems more sincerely compassionate and less judgmental than those who preceded him or those who surround him, he does appear to have a blind spot when it comes to women and their right to control their own bodies and thus their own destinies.
I can understand why the church opposes abortion, but to oppose abortion AND contraception is imposing a form of cruel and unusual punishment on young Catholic women, especially young poor women, who should have access to reproductive health. services. It's time to change that rule now!
1
How interesting to have Mr Douthat's column right next to that of Ms. Dowd. Two devout Catholics, one deeply conservative saying the Pope has gone to far in change and the other espousing more liberalization especially for women. I guess the Pope is damned if he makes changes and damned if he doesn't. Its really hard to be infallible.
4
When even the Dalai Lama is throwing off sexist comments (that there could be a female Dalai Lama someday, so long as she is pretty), it should come as no surprise that any religious institution is indifferent toward the sexism in its attitude & hierarchy. Perhaps we will have women priests BEFORE hell freezes over, but I doubt it.
There is no Constitution, legislature or Supreme Court in the Catholic Church to do for women's rights what has been achieved (over many years) in non-authoritarian countries around the world. Perhaps if sexism comes to be seen as a social justice issue, there will be some progress & change in the Church. In the meantime, I'm happy to see the emphasis on serving the poor, shout-outs to the nuns, and castigation of capitalism run amok from this Pontiff. Not perfect, but leaning in the right direction...
There is no Constitution, legislature or Supreme Court in the Catholic Church to do for women's rights what has been achieved (over many years) in non-authoritarian countries around the world. Perhaps if sexism comes to be seen as a social justice issue, there will be some progress & change in the Church. In the meantime, I'm happy to see the emphasis on serving the poor, shout-outs to the nuns, and castigation of capitalism run amok from this Pontiff. Not perfect, but leaning in the right direction...
3
Andy Borowitz satire on Pope Francis media coverage....
“As the Pope continues his American visit, people from every walk of life are expressing profound gratitude that the news media is offering non-stop coverage of Francis’s every move instead of Trump’s, if only for five days.
Even Americans who would not normally be expected to take an interest in the Pope’s visit, like agnostics and atheists, are wildly enthusiastic about the role Francis has played in momentarily ousting Trump from the headlines.”
We give thanks.
On a different note.....just saw a TV segment on the French 24 channel about women becoming underground miners in South Africa. Interviewed one who supervises a male miner unit. That’s progress.
“As the Pope continues his American visit, people from every walk of life are expressing profound gratitude that the news media is offering non-stop coverage of Francis’s every move instead of Trump’s, if only for five days.
Even Americans who would not normally be expected to take an interest in the Pope’s visit, like agnostics and atheists, are wildly enthusiastic about the role Francis has played in momentarily ousting Trump from the headlines.”
We give thanks.
On a different note.....just saw a TV segment on the French 24 channel about women becoming underground miners in South Africa. Interviewed one who supervises a male miner unit. That’s progress.
1
Maureen, cut Pope Francis some slack, will you? At least he is a caring, compassionate holy man who is thinking progressively. Not like Pope Benedict XVI, who in 2010 decided that it now time to forgive John Lennon for saying the Beatles were bigger than Jesus. Really?
Maureen, put on your "Coolest Pope Ever" T-shirt and chill out.
Maureen, put on your "Coolest Pope Ever" T-shirt and chill out.
2
"Maureen, put on your "Coolest Pope Ever" T-shirt and chill out."
Spoken like a man...
Spoken like a man...
Early on in your column, you say, "Francis is undeniably cool." You then go on to cite reasons why he is not cool enough.
There are those who think of the cup as half full and others who who think of it as half empty. Apparently, you are in the latter group, which is sad indeed.
There are those who think of the cup as half full and others who who think of it as half empty. Apparently, you are in the latter group, which is sad indeed.
2
Thanks for a good op-ed. I read these other comments, and I realize that there's nothing in this part anymore but self-important hot air.
1
This is one of those situations where the perfect is the enemy of the good.
We have a humble pope with a social conscience: a major improvement, and a good thing; count your blessings.
We have a humble pope with a social conscience: a major improvement, and a good thing; count your blessings.
1
It is sad that the 2000 years women have been considered less than men still prevails. This Pope has the power and the following to bring the church into the 21st century where men and women are called to become fully integrated not separated by social dogma and the antiquated power structure of the patriarchy.
Women must find their voices and maintain a continuum of presence believing that we will be acknowledged and given the opportunities that men enjoy - in every environment from business to the church to the home.
Women must find their voices and maintain a continuum of presence believing that we will be acknowledged and given the opportunities that men enjoy - in every environment from business to the church to the home.
2
Yes, I agree, the Church is sexist, and so is Francis. Yet he has shifted the Church's attention away from sex, and punishing women for abortions, and toward the crimes of capitalism and need to protect the earth, our only home. He is hitting at the heart of the global economic system that has left everyone - men, women and children - helpless, frightened and insecure. What's wrong with that?
Crediting Francis for what he has done - the good that he is doing - does not let the Church off the hook for its faults. He is taking the first needed steps toward modernizing Catholicism and making the Church once again morally and socially relevant. Isn't that a good thing?
Liberation theology was sexist, too - so was much of the civil rights movement, for that matter - but both were progressive. The arc of history is long, but so long as it bends toward justice, remains on target. Pope Francis is pointing in the right direction. Let's not derail his effort by being short-sighted.
Crediting Francis for what he has done - the good that he is doing - does not let the Church off the hook for its faults. He is taking the first needed steps toward modernizing Catholicism and making the Church once again morally and socially relevant. Isn't that a good thing?
Liberation theology was sexist, too - so was much of the civil rights movement, for that matter - but both were progressive. The arc of history is long, but so long as it bends toward justice, remains on target. Pope Francis is pointing in the right direction. Let's not derail his effort by being short-sighted.
2
The sharp differences in the way readers respond to Dowd's column seem to depend mainly on their expectations about where Francis or his successors will take the church. Those who support the pope feel he or his successors will eventually elevate women to positions of authority in the hierarchy.
The prospects for change do not rest on the attitudes of any one man. Revolutionizing the hierarchy by introducing women into the councils of power would surely require a collective decision of some kind. A pope could influence this decision through his own teachings and through the people he appointed to positions of influence. But it would require a deep commitment to the equality of women to inspire such actions. The declining influence of Catholicism in both Europe and the U.S. has not yet changed the mind of this good and decent man whose tenure as pope will probably be short, given his age. The cardinals may fear Francis has already made too many changes, and thus they may select a more conservative successor. History is not linear, and there is no guarantee that Francis represents the future.
The prospects for change do not rest on the attitudes of any one man. Revolutionizing the hierarchy by introducing women into the councils of power would surely require a collective decision of some kind. A pope could influence this decision through his own teachings and through the people he appointed to positions of influence. But it would require a deep commitment to the equality of women to inspire such actions. The declining influence of Catholicism in both Europe and the U.S. has not yet changed the mind of this good and decent man whose tenure as pope will probably be short, given his age. The cardinals may fear Francis has already made too many changes, and thus they may select a more conservative successor. History is not linear, and there is no guarantee that Francis represents the future.
2
Carly Fiorina is riding high in the polls. Sarah Palin was a recent vice-presidential candidate. A Republican contender for president wants Margaret Thatcher on a US banknote. And you, Maureen are concerned about women assuming hierarchical leadership positions in the church?
You are aware of the revolving door between private industry & government, I'm sure. And all this time, I thought you were supportive of the wall between church & state. If a Pope can kiss the foot of a condemned individual and motivate the masses, why can't a nun or a modern day Dorothy Day come forward to motivate and lead in their own way?
People have followed great women before & they will do it again. All that's required is that the woman accede to greatness. Maybe this time the symbolic torches will reside with the new Joan of Arc.
You are aware of the revolving door between private industry & government, I'm sure. And all this time, I thought you were supportive of the wall between church & state. If a Pope can kiss the foot of a condemned individual and motivate the masses, why can't a nun or a modern day Dorothy Day come forward to motivate and lead in their own way?
People have followed great women before & they will do it again. All that's required is that the woman accede to greatness. Maybe this time the symbolic torches will reside with the new Joan of Arc.
Pope Francis is a deep disappointment. We can't even get to women much less gays. He can't even take on contraception which causes the demographic problems which lead significant migration from Africa, Mexico, the Philippines and other Catholic countries. He cannot acknowledge the genocides in Africa--especially Rwanda which the Church was deeply involved in. Its the same old stuff in a new packaging. In short, he needs to get his own house in order first. He should lean on the heavy-hitter, holy-roller Catholics to fund his agenda, not try to interfere in American politics.
3
Patience is a virtue. Consider where the Roman Church would be if Benedict were still pope. You and Gail Collins are betraying your enthusiasm for this man by harping on the things he did not say. The things he said about ecology and women and immigration are historic and will have an effect on American politics for years to come. This man is on your side.
The absence of the feminine in the Roman catholic church as in all the major abrahamic religions is, as you note, very 19th century or perhaps, to be more exact, very first century. Until Pope Francis can enforce his view of "the transcendent dignity of the human being" to fully embrace women, he and the Roman Catholic church will continue to promote a form of sexual "fundamentalism" that fails to "confront every form of polarization which would divide it into these two camps" that he forcefully decried before our Congress composed of men and women. The Church's view of women as essentially second-class is at the heart of the abortion and same-sex marriage controversies that are tearing at our social fabric. Despite all his Papal charisma, the question remains, to paraphrase the Great Emancipator, whether or not "a church divided against itself can still stand."
3
Yes, Maureen Dowd! This is exactly what has been missing from Pope Francis' visit: the willingness to confront the misogyny of the Catholic Church! It proves that hatred of women is not just the ideology of right wing patriarchs but also that of liberal progressive males. It demonstrates that Francis has not been educated in how empowerment and education of women can advance all the causes he professes to believe in...he needs a course in feminism and women's studies..but I doubt he is getting it from his male lackeys..but if he did he would have greater insight in the entire sex abuse scandal rocking the church!
2
If the word of your god is immutable and infallible and you stand by those points, how can you ask for that word to change?
It is quite clear that in the catholic church - and by extension the faith - men are the leaders. If you don't care for that because it doesn't match with your world view - why not find a new faith?
Or at the very least abandon any pretense that your faith is anything but a warm blanket against the chill of a universe that isn't ruled by a bearded man in the sky.
It is quite clear that in the catholic church - and by extension the faith - men are the leaders. If you don't care for that because it doesn't match with your world view - why not find a new faith?
Or at the very least abandon any pretense that your faith is anything but a warm blanket against the chill of a universe that isn't ruled by a bearded man in the sky.
3
I remember the 1976 state visit to the U.S. of Queen Elizabeth II marking our bicentennial. The crowds and interest were similar to that occasioned by the visit of Pope Francis. Pope John Paul II visited the U.S. a lot of times, but the early visits, in the late 1970s and early 1980s still were media events. It seems that we’re very interested in global royalty and the pope is, after all, a monarch. I wonder how much of our reaction is spiritual and how much is merely the Beatles in Shea Stadium writ larger.
This is perhaps an important context to consider, given the outsized interest among the pundit liberati as well as the liberal estate generally. Francis has become the Atheists’ Pope, since he champions important issues that the secular far-left has embraced, regardless of the fact that he heads a global Church that until recently was thought beyond the pale by many for its positions on abortion, contraception and women, plus its occasional lawless sexual license with minors. Yet he won’t be the one to turn Roman Catholicism into a somewhat more august and equivalently comfortable version of U.S. Episcopalianism.
Maureen chides Francis and his (and her) Church for what many regard as obsolete thinking on women. She’s done this before. My basic response hasn’t changed: this is the dogma that believers hold is God-given, as God is said to have proclaimed that what is established by Peter and his successors will be so in heaven. You’re either a Catholic or you’re not.
This is perhaps an important context to consider, given the outsized interest among the pundit liberati as well as the liberal estate generally. Francis has become the Atheists’ Pope, since he champions important issues that the secular far-left has embraced, regardless of the fact that he heads a global Church that until recently was thought beyond the pale by many for its positions on abortion, contraception and women, plus its occasional lawless sexual license with minors. Yet he won’t be the one to turn Roman Catholicism into a somewhat more august and equivalently comfortable version of U.S. Episcopalianism.
Maureen chides Francis and his (and her) Church for what many regard as obsolete thinking on women. She’s done this before. My basic response hasn’t changed: this is the dogma that believers hold is God-given, as God is said to have proclaimed that what is established by Peter and his successors will be so in heaven. You’re either a Catholic or you’re not.
3
So he isn't perfect. But he is both human and humane, and a tonic compared with his predecessors in the job. I left the church because of the treatment of women, and that continuing refusal to give women the respect and the position in the church they deserve will keep me away. But I am grateful for what he IS doing.
9
I left the church because of the treatment of women, and that continuing refusal to give women the respect and the position in the church they deserve will keep me away.
---------------
How is life treating you outside of the Church, in the mainstream culture these days, Karen?
Say what you will about the Church's teachings, the more women who take away the bodily dignity that comes with knowing you are a child of God. worthy of bodily respect, the better. I hope you can take this part of catholicism with you, even as you pull up stakes and head out on your own journeys.
---------------
How is life treating you outside of the Church, in the mainstream culture these days, Karen?
Say what you will about the Church's teachings, the more women who take away the bodily dignity that comes with knowing you are a child of God. worthy of bodily respect, the better. I hope you can take this part of catholicism with you, even as you pull up stakes and head out on your own journeys.
Maureen,
You are right on target with this column!!! Pope Francis is a sadly ignorant person when it comes to women's issues. He's a great Pope for the 19th Century!!
You are right on target with this column!!! Pope Francis is a sadly ignorant person when it comes to women's issues. He's a great Pope for the 19th Century!!
6
Yes, if only Pope Francis could do as he's been implored to do by San Francisco Catholics and jettison Archbishop Cordileone. It's really a slap in the face to the people of this very, very liberal city for him to have been appointed by ex-pope Benedict. He helped draft that hateful Proposition 8 stating that marriage could only be between one man and one woman. History has obviously overtaken this guy, but he's still there in San Francisco. As the article noted, he harshly punished a San Francisco priest who had the temerity to appear at a conference merely discussing the idea of women priests.
16
A good assessment, Maureen. We're all in Francis ecstasy--because there is much much good in what he's saying and doing globally. But what CAN he do for women? Nothing--because the R.C. Church is an institution that can't allow it. The institution stinks--that's the problem. For all its good works, it has much to answer for, past and present--and obviously future too. At least he's not John Paul II--that slimy, smiley ultra-conservative.
8
The institution stinks--that's the problem.
------------------
Can you please be more specific about the stinking institutions to which you refer?
The hospitals, the schools, the missions...
Again, can you please be more specific in your charges of stinky-ness, so that someone in charge of an institution on a specific real estate land holding can look into your accusations and reply?
;-) Know your history before starting with the complaint yaps, I say! "Dry your tears, I say. No woman/No cry."
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Can you please be more specific about the stinking institutions to which you refer?
The hospitals, the schools, the missions...
Again, can you please be more specific in your charges of stinky-ness, so that someone in charge of an institution on a specific real estate land holding can look into your accusations and reply?
;-) Know your history before starting with the complaint yaps, I say! "Dry your tears, I say. No woman/No cry."
Midway, laughable that you charge me to look into church history. Haven't *some* of the sins of the RCC been quite visible in recent years--not merely the abuse of children but the sinful coverups, at all levels? I had 16 years of Catholic education--I DO know my church history and also my RCC dogma--and could go mano a mano with you on it. (I said, the Church "for all its good works"--so I know it has done good works.) Yes, I'll be more specific about this comment: "the institution stinks" -- in its MAN-made dogma that claims gay marriage is wrong and having women priests is wrong, and divorce is wrong, etc. Read today's NYT article ("A Pastoral Pope") which quotes German Cardinal Mueller stating, about issues related to women: "It's not an academic doctrine; it's the word of God." Really? I thought it was Canon Law, based on the writings of male theologians and male popes, because I've never read passages in the New Testament that quote Jesus about divorce, abortion or homosexuality. Yet conservatives, whatever their Christian denomination, seem to find "evidence" all over the place. I guess it depends on how far you're willing to parse JC's statements. Even the devil can quote scripture.
I hate Ms Dowd's view that it ain't good 'til it's all perfect. By all means, point out his deficiencies, but don't use them to diminish his positive contributions, lest you be the Saint you're expecting him to be.
6
Easier for you to say, sir, than for Ms Dowd. Give us a break!
Just as I am about to start reading 'The Betrothed', which looks promising, a favorite novel of the Pope, written in the 18th century by Alessandro Manzoni, I took a look at what Dowd had to say about Brother Francis, and had a great laugh.
'Sitting on the lawn and guess what is in front of me? His Fiat', wrote a friend invited to welcome the VIPs to Mass in Washington. 'The Secret Police are magnificent and the Italian Press are all wearing Gucci shoes'.
To a friend on her way home from Senegal earlier 'you are missed, happy holiday, and be prepared for a warm welcome', the young matriarch of a handsome and hard-working family, all strong oak trees. All of us working in the humanitarian community where Planned Parenthood is a
priority, and the future for the children of this world is bleak.
We love America, and I was born in New York, raised a Catholic. The Pope removed his religious cloak at the U.N. on neutral ground and spoke to World Leaders, to all of us as a Humanitarian. He told us to get our act together, to become more spiritual and to remember that it is a privilege and responsibility to be human and humane.
Brother Francis is not the Vicar in The Way of all Flesh, he is a person for All Seasons, who would be at home with Montaigne, or the President. He asked for our prayers, and if ever I regain my faith, it will be thanks to this extraordinary and magnificent Holy Man.
'Sitting on the lawn and guess what is in front of me? His Fiat', wrote a friend invited to welcome the VIPs to Mass in Washington. 'The Secret Police are magnificent and the Italian Press are all wearing Gucci shoes'.
To a friend on her way home from Senegal earlier 'you are missed, happy holiday, and be prepared for a warm welcome', the young matriarch of a handsome and hard-working family, all strong oak trees. All of us working in the humanitarian community where Planned Parenthood is a
priority, and the future for the children of this world is bleak.
We love America, and I was born in New York, raised a Catholic. The Pope removed his religious cloak at the U.N. on neutral ground and spoke to World Leaders, to all of us as a Humanitarian. He told us to get our act together, to become more spiritual and to remember that it is a privilege and responsibility to be human and humane.
Brother Francis is not the Vicar in The Way of all Flesh, he is a person for All Seasons, who would be at home with Montaigne, or the President. He asked for our prayers, and if ever I regain my faith, it will be thanks to this extraordinary and magnificent Holy Man.
6
I like what this pope is doing but Maureen is right.
29
It is a refreshing and welcome change of pace to be able to agree with Maureen Dowd again, first time in a long time. The pope is deservedly given a great deal of credit for his environmentalism, but he conveniently and disingenuously overlooks one of the leading causes of climate change--the human population explosion, which is only exacerbated by the Catholic's church's insistence on banning all forms of contraception, which sounds very 19th century indeed. Admittedly, the pope inveighed against breeding "like rabbits," but how is this possible without contraception? And all the education in the world won't help a woman if she is kept pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen!
32
For some of the finer points about this pope, I recommend Adam Gopnik's article in the current New Yorker magazine.
Admittedly, the pope inveighed against breeding "like rabbits," but how is this possible without contraception?
-------------------------
Now, now you are beginning to address the thinking, mindful part, so important to catholic teachings.
Self control.
Bodily respect.
An urge to overcome the honest assessment that we are all animals, in order to become more civilized and rise above impulse/instinct of animals to the thought planes of humans.
We abstain until the body is ready to breed. Hence, no 10 and 12-year-old mothers. We teach monogamy, and the lifelong partnership ideas of committing to another person, and raising a lifelong family. No just spreading seeds to the winds, and moving along as families and creations are left in the wake.
It IS possible to have healthy sexual lives, with out breeding like rabbits and worshipping technology as the only way to control reproductive instincts. Do you think people are animals, or better? If the former, then don't put all your faith in technology, as that too will one day fail you.
-------------------------
Now, now you are beginning to address the thinking, mindful part, so important to catholic teachings.
Self control.
Bodily respect.
An urge to overcome the honest assessment that we are all animals, in order to become more civilized and rise above impulse/instinct of animals to the thought planes of humans.
We abstain until the body is ready to breed. Hence, no 10 and 12-year-old mothers. We teach monogamy, and the lifelong partnership ideas of committing to another person, and raising a lifelong family. No just spreading seeds to the winds, and moving along as families and creations are left in the wake.
It IS possible to have healthy sexual lives, with out breeding like rabbits and worshipping technology as the only way to control reproductive instincts. Do you think people are animals, or better? If the former, then don't put all your faith in technology, as that too will one day fail you.
Thank you Maureen for putting so eloquently into words what I have been feeling ever since this pope was elected. He is no breath of fresh air, just the same stale misogyny that the catholic church seems to pride itself on. All organized religions treat women like garbage and the catholic church one of the absolute worst. It's absolutely repulsive the way this institution treats women. If blacks or Hispanics were treated this way, can you imagine the outcry? But with women, it's no big deal - condoned even. Even women buy into this, my own mother did until later in her life when she realized what a sham it all was. I walked away from the church years ago and have never regretted it. You can have a relationship with Christ without belonging to a church, Jesus never excluded women - the men that wrote the New Testament did. Thank you for this wonderful article, you said what needed to be said perfectly.
32
I agree with what you are saying. But let's give Pope Francis his due. He is going where no one has dared to go including our brawny selves. And he is doing it without raising a finger, let alone his voice. His soft voice is reverberating all over - man-woman, young-old, poor-rich transcending cultures, religions, countries. You can't blame him for the opportunistic, capitalist hawkers outside. If you succumbed to the t-shirt, it is about you not the Pope's message or him. Yes, I am a woman and I understand your impatience. But the Catholic Church war against women has been going on for centuries. One flick of Pope Francis' wrist cannot undo the damage. He is a chemist (trained before he entered the seminary) not Houdini. So please curtail your angst. He is the best human being to have come along in perhaps centuries. Maybe I'll give into my supernatural musings that he is the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. Gee! I think I just mixed up two religions. But is'nt that what Pope Francis wanted?
4
Ms. Dowd, thank you for unmasking this truly disappointing papal "feel good about the Church" visit. Francis totally ignored the horribly broken nature of the institutional Church. Decades of sex abuse cover-up scandal and patently indefensible, even ludicrous, positions against married and women priests, despite a calamitous priest shortage, have combined to create a profound credibility crisis. Without credibility, the institutional Church is unable to perform its primary mission, to transmit and maintain the faith that provides us with purpose, hope, peace and armor against the inevitable brutalities of life. The result--great suffering for millions, of all ages, especially children and grandchildren, deprived of faith. To overcome this cancer of lack of credibility, the Pope must act heroically to win back our trust. He needs to aggressively address the lethal priest shortage by immediately allowing a married priesthood and women priests. On his visit, he spoke constantly of protecting the dignity of the poor, immigrants, and those harmed by the environment. What about the dignity of women? What about the dignity of the laity who can't be properly ministered to by the scant priests available? The ultimate question--what would Christ do in this crisis? We all know the answer. The Pope exhorts us to humility and mercy. We need to exhort the Pope to emulate Christ's courage. I pray that, in Francis, our hope has not been misplaced.
David G. O'Brien
David G. O'Brien
8
Perhaps I see the glass half empty, as I saw throngs of adoring people rush to catch a glimpse of a man, who leads a billion member church. Certainly he is a celebrity & our frailty is to adore celebrities, regardless foe what they stand for.The Pope is doing Church work, and his charisma enhances the church & for that he deserves A for effort.However, beyond everything else, he is part of a destructive force called organized religion, that stopped evolving thousands of years ago.It is not only women that have been left behind but humanity itself.In this the year 2015, we still take the scriptures literally, I see no difference in the story of Cinderella & the stories of the Bible, no I'm wrong, Cinderella gets to marry the Prince, in religion women still walk behind the mule.There are Billions of people throughout the world that go through life brainwashed into believing that we are being judged by a concept that no one can describe feel or touch, & to me that is frightening.
11
Religion, the opiate of the people.
1
Look at all the women and children walking alongside their mules in the Middle East these days, trudging into what remains of Christian Europe.
It seems you are correct: "It is not only women that have been left behind but humanity itself."
Odd, but I wonder if in your philosophical rejection of the religious/cultural teachings of centuries, you support the political regimes that support marching into other sovereign nations; toppling their political idols in stone and flesh; promising to teach their women and children better, newer ways, but then disappearing relatively quickly, before the purple ink on the fingers and parchments can dry... do you still have faith in those acts, or do you recognize those as myths too?
I fear too many Americans are shifting away from traditional reason(s) and natural understandings, even as we learn more and more about specialized traits, into a blind worship of technology as Our Better.
Beware, as Edward Snowden would caution us... beware of the damage and destruction already washing up in the name of progress. Pope Francis understands and sees those acts and responsibilities too. Do you?
It seems you are correct: "It is not only women that have been left behind but humanity itself."
Odd, but I wonder if in your philosophical rejection of the religious/cultural teachings of centuries, you support the political regimes that support marching into other sovereign nations; toppling their political idols in stone and flesh; promising to teach their women and children better, newer ways, but then disappearing relatively quickly, before the purple ink on the fingers and parchments can dry... do you still have faith in those acts, or do you recognize those as myths too?
I fear too many Americans are shifting away from traditional reason(s) and natural understandings, even as we learn more and more about specialized traits, into a blind worship of technology as Our Better.
Beware, as Edward Snowden would caution us... beware of the damage and destruction already washing up in the name of progress. Pope Francis understands and sees those acts and responsibilities too. Do you?
Midway,
Have no fear that technology will ruin the world, religion will stand in the way of progress..If the money was put into Scientific research rather than the Billion Dollar religious edifices, we would have cured cancer by now, & may discover how man can live in peace with each other, certainly, doing away with religion would be a step in the right direction.
Have no fear that technology will ruin the world, religion will stand in the way of progress..If the money was put into Scientific research rather than the Billion Dollar religious edifices, we would have cured cancer by now, & may discover how man can live in peace with each other, certainly, doing away with religion would be a step in the right direction.
1
"According to The Clio Project from the University of Toronto, medieval prioresses were a powerful force throughout Europe. In many cases, Catholic nuns were the daughters of important princes and nobleman. Women of the time had few choices in life. They could either marry or join the church. If a woman chose to marry, she could expect to spend her life producing children and following her husband's orders. Joining the church presented a rare opportunity to experience power, freedom, and education. Although a prioress could never marry or have offspring, she could own property and experience other so-called manly pursuits for the time period."
Primogeniture perpetuated the feudal system.
Church laws of poverty and obedience for nuns employed by the Vatican managed dioceses opposed "New Deal" government laws requiring paid in pensions for social security, disability, health costs and minimum wages.
Sadly, many, if not vast majority, of teaching nuns in Catholic grammar schools advanced beyond associated degrees or minimum requirements of states. Thus the orders of nuns that were not solely dependent upon the "charity" of the bishops.
I will not discuss the culture of seminaries since post-WWII in the context of female seminarians/priests in a club.
Primogeniture perpetuated the feudal system.
Church laws of poverty and obedience for nuns employed by the Vatican managed dioceses opposed "New Deal" government laws requiring paid in pensions for social security, disability, health costs and minimum wages.
Sadly, many, if not vast majority, of teaching nuns in Catholic grammar schools advanced beyond associated degrees or minimum requirements of states. Thus the orders of nuns that were not solely dependent upon the "charity" of the bishops.
I will not discuss the culture of seminaries since post-WWII in the context of female seminarians/priests in a club.
Why would people expect the Catholic Church, as represented by its popes, to be anything other than it has been for 2000 years: authoritarian, hierarchical, misogynistic, regressive, anti-intellectual, opposed to dissent and question, and determined to retain the privileges of its ruling elite and entrenched bureaucracy? Because the church needs more believers for it to endure, it denounces birth control and abortion. Pope Francis seems like a nicer man than many popes have been, but he accepts and to some degree enforces the basic precepts and structures of the Catholic church.
6
Thank you Maureen, the headline for this column says it all.
5
This may be the first time I've agreed with Maureen Dowd ... since forever. I love this pope's focus on the poor and the environment, but the Catholic Church has an enormous problem with what has been called "the pelvic issues" -- and Pope Francis is no different.
19
The social change and ethics that Pope Francis is talking about to the world audience reflects his conviction and persona bound to resonate at the Vatican with some rethink impact on its doctrinal rigidity; in Vatican he has to tread a difficult path of balancing his role of being custodian of the Catholic faith with that of a conscious interpreter of the doctrine according to the changing social reality.The Pope is simply performing his balancing act to the best of his capacity and effort.
6
A wise psychiatrist once told a friend of mine that people don't change until things get so bad that changing is better than staying the same. It's the same with institutions like the Catholic church. Maybe more so. Don't hold your breath waiting for the Catholic church to change its attitude toward women. My advice to women is to leave the church and move on. Life without the church is fine. In fact, much better.
17
Not Mark.
I have often said to this women in other faiths, and cultures, where oppression of women can be acute (like in Islam), or subservience of women is demanded in all social spaces (like in many Indian cultural groups). I say to these women, "Leave your faith, leave your community, reject your men and their authority, leave the country...and stay single, rebel in every way (though it might cost you) or marry completely outside the flock (and shock the hell out of your parents, authority figures and cultural puritans)".
I have said it, but I am curious what would happen? If a system like the Catholic church and hierarchy is already full of men, who are celibate or suppressed homosexuals, what difference does it make if women stay or leave the church? If many women in the Middle East leave their men, their culture and their country, would it make a difference to those men who prefer the company of men, boys, and maybe something besides a woman, all the time?
The cloistered world of "celibate or repressed homosexual religious men's club" is already full of "men only". What difference would women leaving or questioning or rebelling make? Only when women earn as much as men, or more, and they become the funders to whom the plate must be passed...will there be change. And how long do you think it will take for that to happen?
Long, long, long time....
I have often said to this women in other faiths, and cultures, where oppression of women can be acute (like in Islam), or subservience of women is demanded in all social spaces (like in many Indian cultural groups). I say to these women, "Leave your faith, leave your community, reject your men and their authority, leave the country...and stay single, rebel in every way (though it might cost you) or marry completely outside the flock (and shock the hell out of your parents, authority figures and cultural puritans)".
I have said it, but I am curious what would happen? If a system like the Catholic church and hierarchy is already full of men, who are celibate or suppressed homosexuals, what difference does it make if women stay or leave the church? If many women in the Middle East leave their men, their culture and their country, would it make a difference to those men who prefer the company of men, boys, and maybe something besides a woman, all the time?
The cloistered world of "celibate or repressed homosexual religious men's club" is already full of "men only". What difference would women leaving or questioning or rebelling make? Only when women earn as much as men, or more, and they become the funders to whom the plate must be passed...will there be change. And how long do you think it will take for that to happen?
Long, long, long time....
Please, do not kill the messenger. His message transcends whatever role you think he has in the Catholic church. His message is for inclusion, rather than exclusion, peace over war, and shifting the paradigm from damning the sinner to the lifting up the most vulnerable. He chooses his words (and his battles) carefully and I hope people who heard his words were moved to examine their own prejudices and exclusionary thoughts and actions. Maybe after we can collectively create peace on Earth he can work on whether or not women can be priests.
3
this is only a wild guess but I think John Boehner, a Catholic, listened very carefully to the Pope and then handed in his resignation papers.
6
Dowd is tougher on Pope Francis than on Trump, of course The Francis did not give special access to Dowd like The Donald did.
9
Pope Francis is the perfect frontman for a Catholic church that is still pushing dogma, myth and superstition that requires a willing suspension of disbelief. We should not be surprised that nothing has really changed,
17
I wish all church leaders, the Vatican especially, would reflect on the fact that if Jesus was 'true man' as they teach, he would have been nothing without Mary's mitochondria, powerhouses of the cell, inherited only from the mother. Calls for more respect for women!
7
Francis is a rock star. His humility,humanity, and simplicity synthesize to give him an elegance and gravitas that is unmatched. The Manichean contrast between the pope and the buffoons running as Republican candidates make any sentient being laugh out loud.
Maureen is hard wired to issues of the Catholic Church.It's in her DNA. "All is context"Collectively Catholic women have the power to change the Catholic Church.Actualize it ! When you are the leadership in a hierarchy of paternalism and male dominance 24/7 you won't change.What's the incentive? Answer: absolutely nothing.
What women have to do is change the context. Unrelenting Acts of peaceful disobedience during church rituals, functions, and events will bring about change, no question. The question is will women want to bear the opportunity cost? Do enough women want that change? Will they be unified?The Catholic Church can't function without women.Prove it to the power structure! Francis mentioned MLK numerous times during his stay. Using Kings paradigm and making the analogy to the civil rights struggle will give instant credibility to the struggle. The patriarchy must be made uncomfortable every day in an unrelenting campaign for change.The power is there, project it.
Maureen is hard wired to issues of the Catholic Church.It's in her DNA. "All is context"Collectively Catholic women have the power to change the Catholic Church.Actualize it ! When you are the leadership in a hierarchy of paternalism and male dominance 24/7 you won't change.What's the incentive? Answer: absolutely nothing.
What women have to do is change the context. Unrelenting Acts of peaceful disobedience during church rituals, functions, and events will bring about change, no question. The question is will women want to bear the opportunity cost? Do enough women want that change? Will they be unified?The Catholic Church can't function without women.Prove it to the power structure! Francis mentioned MLK numerous times during his stay. Using Kings paradigm and making the analogy to the civil rights struggle will give instant credibility to the struggle. The patriarchy must be made uncomfortable every day in an unrelenting campaign for change.The power is there, project it.
14
If every woman stayed home from mass on a given Sunday, would that get the Pope's attention? Or perhaps for a year?
Pope Francis deserves our respect for the many positive changes he as made, and for his basic humility while being the leader of the Catholic Church. Yet, when I turned on the TV during the first evening of his visit in NYC, I noticed Sen. Schemer, Gov. Cuomo, Mayor de Blasio conversing outside with a number of clergy. I wondered where are the women? Where was Sen. Gillibrand? Why were there not nuns in this group. What you have written, Ms. Dowd, is the truth, and it is my belief that you expressed this truth courageously.
Jesus had women in his presence even when dying. Jesus, the Christ, appeared to women first according to the Gospels. Paul had women deacons in the newly erected churches along the Mediterranean Sea. When Christianity became the Catholic Church, women's roles became "helpmates". Pope Francis could become, perhaps, the Perfect 21st-century pope if he could "apply" the Golden Rule" as you so eloquently suggested.
Jesus had women in his presence even when dying. Jesus, the Christ, appeared to women first according to the Gospels. Paul had women deacons in the newly erected churches along the Mediterranean Sea. When Christianity became the Catholic Church, women's roles became "helpmates". Pope Francis could become, perhaps, the Perfect 21st-century pope if he could "apply" the Golden Rule" as you so eloquently suggested.
15
Wait a minute! Christianity didn't become the Catholic Church – the Roman Catholic Church more or less appropriated Christianity for its own purpose: political power.
Furthermore, that happened in around 300 A.D., so the RC Church is not 2000 years old, but Christianity is (approx.).
(Can some more knowledgeable scholar jump in here please?)
Furthermore, that happened in around 300 A.D., so the RC Church is not 2000 years old, but Christianity is (approx.).
(Can some more knowledgeable scholar jump in here please?)
This Pope is the best there has been since John XXIII. As with most human institutions (including the Times) and nature, itself, most strides forward are in evolutionary steps and not in sudden transformations.
The real issue is not whether this Pope is moving fast enough; it is whether we and our leaders can keep up with him - across the range of the issues he has tackled.
We are all fortunate that this man is Pope, and that he has the courage and wisdom he has so clearly displayed. This Papal visit to North America has been a blessing and a milestone. Let's give thanks that it has occurred, and look forward to the milestones to come.
The real issue is not whether this Pope is moving fast enough; it is whether we and our leaders can keep up with him - across the range of the issues he has tackled.
We are all fortunate that this man is Pope, and that he has the courage and wisdom he has so clearly displayed. This Papal visit to North America has been a blessing and a milestone. Let's give thanks that it has occurred, and look forward to the milestones to come.
1
At the moment there are about 3.6 billion men and 3.6 billion women on this planet.
As an institution, the Catholic Church either acknowledges this fact or it slowly/rapidly becomes irrelevant.
Its choice to make.
If past is prelude, the Church has already decided.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
As an institution, the Catholic Church either acknowledges this fact or it slowly/rapidly becomes irrelevant.
Its choice to make.
If past is prelude, the Church has already decided.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
2
I usually find Maureen's column a little too snarky and too "city-slicker" to be taken seriously. This time I think she has hit the right tone and topic.
I am inspired and thrilled by Francis for what he is doing well. But, I also do not think it is inappropriate to discuss the biggest baddest elephant in the room. Women are half the human world and are in every way the equal (some might say the betters) of men. Men are always willing to wait for women's issues to be addressed and solved. Women all over the world suffer and wait in the long ancient shadow of male hegemony in all its permutations.
I am inspired and thrilled by Francis for what he is doing well. But, I also do not think it is inappropriate to discuss the biggest baddest elephant in the room. Women are half the human world and are in every way the equal (some might say the betters) of men. Men are always willing to wait for women's issues to be addressed and solved. Women all over the world suffer and wait in the long ancient shadow of male hegemony in all its permutations.
17
The lives of gays and gay couples today is vastly improved thanks to policies and laws implemented and adjudicated by this president (once he "evolved"), by the many state legislatures and by the Supreme Court.
Bill Clinton's policy of DADT of 20 years ago seems positively paleo by comparison.
Yet, if you can remember, back then, how radical DADT was for its time.
I'm surprised that an experienced commentator with an op-ed in the nation's newspaper of record doesn't get that Rome was not built in a day.
Bill Clinton's policy of DADT of 20 years ago seems positively paleo by comparison.
Yet, if you can remember, back then, how radical DADT was for its time.
I'm surprised that an experienced commentator with an op-ed in the nation's newspaper of record doesn't get that Rome was not built in a day.
1
An outsider, I suppose because of the possibility if not probability of serious s-c-h-I-s-m.
There are American female rabbis whom are probably not well-accepted in Israel.
There are female Methodist, Episcopalian, and other sectarian American Christian priests/ministers.
The Church has major splits in its 2000 years, as I'm thinking
of the East/West division, Protestantism, and Anglican establishment.
Francis is one gutsy leader, though (seemingly) fears the risk of chaos
and perhaps ultimate destruction.
Very interesting column.
There are American female rabbis whom are probably not well-accepted in Israel.
There are female Methodist, Episcopalian, and other sectarian American Christian priests/ministers.
The Church has major splits in its 2000 years, as I'm thinking
of the East/West division, Protestantism, and Anglican establishment.
Francis is one gutsy leader, though (seemingly) fears the risk of chaos
and perhaps ultimate destruction.
Very interesting column.
2
As an eventful week ends, Maureen Dowd has performed a service by pointing out that Americans – both Catholics and non-Catholics – were excessive in their euphoria over the charming Pope Francis.
Disarmed by the man’s declining the pomp and frills of office and his obvious affinity for the poor and his call for dialogue, we intentionally or carelessly overlooked some glaring areas. Ms. Dowd is right that the Pontiff’s refusal even to entertain the idea of a greater role for women in the Church probably was the biggest disappointment – or should have been.
October may end up being a great time for Catholic women to look into the Episcopalian Church. Just as with any other huge enterprise, the Church of Rome would benefit from some serious competition.
Disarmed by the man’s declining the pomp and frills of office and his obvious affinity for the poor and his call for dialogue, we intentionally or carelessly overlooked some glaring areas. Ms. Dowd is right that the Pontiff’s refusal even to entertain the idea of a greater role for women in the Church probably was the biggest disappointment – or should have been.
October may end up being a great time for Catholic women to look into the Episcopalian Church. Just as with any other huge enterprise, the Church of Rome would benefit from some serious competition.
3
I thought Ms. Dowd did an excellent job on summarizing Pope Francis' strengths and weaknesses.
But even if he agreed with everything Maureen said, he could hardly follow her advice and I hardly need to say why save that the rest of the RCC wouldn't like that one bit!
Just consider how much further ahead the American Episcopal Church is on the role of women in its clergy at all levels to say nothing of its acceptance of openly LGBT people. I am always happy to recommend this church to religious people who are unhappy with the Church of Rome.
My only argument with them is with their belief in the Christian Gods, a stance I find insupportable.
Only a small point!!!
But even if he agreed with everything Maureen said, he could hardly follow her advice and I hardly need to say why save that the rest of the RCC wouldn't like that one bit!
Just consider how much further ahead the American Episcopal Church is on the role of women in its clergy at all levels to say nothing of its acceptance of openly LGBT people. I am always happy to recommend this church to religious people who are unhappy with the Church of Rome.
My only argument with them is with their belief in the Christian Gods, a stance I find insupportable.
Only a small point!!!
1
Back in the '60s and '70s, I went to Catholic school along with most of my cousins, they were considered better than public but certainly cheaper than private academies. The head master at my high school was a (barely) closeted homosexual priest, most of the Christian Brothers were either fairly obvious gay men or violently abusive heteros who would slam boys into lockers for having unkempt hair or crooked ties. Looking back at those days I used to wonder why so many of the Brothers and priests were homosexuals (I could understand why the few heterosexuals were so frustrated).
I had a gay class mate from high school who later became a Brother; I actually reconnected with him in the late '80s when so many were dying of AIDS, including our old high school headmaster. I was curious why any gay man would enlist in the priesthood, it just seemed so odd to me. And my friend had a good explanation at the ready.
Good Catholic boys were certain that sex outside of marriage was a sin, homosexuality was a carnal sin. The Church has no answer for homosexuality other than simply don't do it. Either get married to a woman or don't have sex. Ever. And the Church has a really good job offer if you choose to be celibate. So for confused young men attracted to other men, there was an answer. Become a priest, commit your life to the Church and never have sex. Seemed like a good idea at the time.
And so thousands confused boys flocked to the priesthood. Look how that turned out.
I had a gay class mate from high school who later became a Brother; I actually reconnected with him in the late '80s when so many were dying of AIDS, including our old high school headmaster. I was curious why any gay man would enlist in the priesthood, it just seemed so odd to me. And my friend had a good explanation at the ready.
Good Catholic boys were certain that sex outside of marriage was a sin, homosexuality was a carnal sin. The Church has no answer for homosexuality other than simply don't do it. Either get married to a woman or don't have sex. Ever. And the Church has a really good job offer if you choose to be celibate. So for confused young men attracted to other men, there was an answer. Become a priest, commit your life to the Church and never have sex. Seemed like a good idea at the time.
And so thousands confused boys flocked to the priesthood. Look how that turned out.
11
The ordination of men, the subordination of women … such is the way of the RC Church since Paul/Saul of Tarsus. And the RC hierarchy shows no inclination to equality. Inequality is at their essence. And so one has to ask, Why? Their answers have always been gibberish, disingenuous, made-up 'history'. Change? That's asking too much, it seems.
11
You’re right Maureen, the Church still has to work on equality for women. And the media also. For instance, why does the Times, our most authoritative paper, still have only 2 women on its op ed page as regular columnists, year after year? it has 9 or 10 men. That's conspicuously unbalanced for 2015. All those lawsuits by media women were several decades ago. What happened?
The Times has opened its op ed page door only so far for women, even tho it had a woman executive editor. And it still has only 1 regular African American opinion columnist, tho it now has an AA executive editor. Interesting to speculate why.
Great institutions like the Church and the Times move slowly toward modernity. Something to do with prestige and power. The Times and the Church might be up to date and trendy with some things, but not others.
The Times has opened its op ed page door only so far for women, even tho it had a woman executive editor. And it still has only 1 regular African American opinion columnist, tho it now has an AA executive editor. Interesting to speculate why.
Great institutions like the Church and the Times move slowly toward modernity. Something to do with prestige and power. The Times and the Church might be up to date and trendy with some things, but not others.
17
I am a grandmother who is no longer fertile, but still quite vibrant!
2
Yes, he is not perfect. But I see his humanity shine through his eyes. I see his joy when he reaches out to children. I hear his call to our better natures - and I hear him say to me, a non-believer, send me your good wishes. And I do, Francis, I do.
12
Preserving the boys club atmosphere of the church does take some of the shine off the pontiff.
11
Maureen. indeed, wallowing in a mixture worldly opinion and cockeyed commentary. Surly, she enjoyed flirting with reality and nonsense.
The Pope couldn't allow women priests even if he wanted to. It would require a Vatican III. And I am tired of people criticizing the Church for this. If you don't like it, be an Episcopalian. Maureen clearly didn't listen to the second reading at the Canonization Mass. "Whatever is good, think on these things."
5
He could convene a Vatican III if he wanted to. Agenda: ordination of women, married priests and the sanctioning of bishops who protected pedophile priests.
This Pope speaks endlessly about the poverty stricken peoples of the world and says we should all do more to fix this terrible, terrible problem. Yet, he heads one of the richest institutions on earth. Does it ever occur to him that if he sells some pieces of the Church's collection, he could feed millions? How much would a Michaelangelo sculpture bring? How many people could it feed and house? The Vatican took in a family of four. I am not impressed. He asks everyone to pray for him. I will pray that he wakes up and and sees that he is not doing nearly enough for humanity.
16
One step at a time.....
Chose your battles wisely......
Catholicism is thousands of years in the making, even a man of the character, spirituality, and conviction of Pope Francis can not change an ENTRENCHED CONSERVATIVE institution overnight. I truly believe his strategy is evolutionary change, not revolutionary change. He is the right man to move our church forward, slowly but surely.
Chose your battles wisely......
Catholicism is thousands of years in the making, even a man of the character, spirituality, and conviction of Pope Francis can not change an ENTRENCHED CONSERVATIVE institution overnight. I truly believe his strategy is evolutionary change, not revolutionary change. He is the right man to move our church forward, slowly but surely.
6
The two "Golden Rules"--are hyped as the essence of civility; but neither will bear scrutiny.
1. "Do unto others ..." is nonsense unless it presumes normal self and other care--the normal blend of egoism and altruism as well as a general take on "care." Interpreted specifically--it ruins heterosexual relations. Give bicycles, if you want bicycles. Etc. Abnormal self-care--masochists, the depressed, the suicidal--has abhorrent implications.
Also all "asymmetric" relations are undermined. Authorities (parents, teachers, police, professionals) need deference and obedience--they cannot be deferential and obedient. Nor does it accommodate competitive relations. Don't score for the other guys as you would have them score for you.
2. "Love your neighbor ..." needs a general take on "love"--as care--not romantic or sexual or even parental love. One does not have enough love to spread to all your neighbor's husbands or children. And it assumes "self-love" is not a perversion--narcissism or psychopathology.
Both versions are supposed to be egalitarian. But normal caring relations depend on psychological "closeness". Normal people care about strangers--in the abstract, in general--but they care more about colleagues, teammates, friends and family.
The rules are more examples of hyper-charitable--even dogmatic--interpretation--touting nonsense as sense--as does all theology.