Volkswagen needs to go out of business. 'Cheat' cannot be fixed.
Volkswagen is going to fail, anyway along with the other carmakers because they destroy their own resource base.
There is no such thing as a 'clean' car any more that there is a 'clean' war or 'clean' coal mine. Cars are assaults on life itself dolled up as status symbols and entertainment. We have surrendered to much to these machines, their moment in the sun is over, done in by their own consumptive demands.
Get rid of the cars now, starting with Volkswagen.
Volkswagen is going to fail, anyway along with the other carmakers because they destroy their own resource base.
There is no such thing as a 'clean' car any more that there is a 'clean' war or 'clean' coal mine. Cars are assaults on life itself dolled up as status symbols and entertainment. We have surrendered to much to these machines, their moment in the sun is over, done in by their own consumptive demands.
Get rid of the cars now, starting with Volkswagen.
Best selling US model the Ford F150 pick up gets 23 MPG VW gets 36 Mpg . (Fuel in = pollution out) Now the test is in a lab with the car stationary. Physics tells you that a car weighing 2,200kg a lot more, is going to use more fuel than a car weighing 1,200kg how do they test that on a rig or is the test designed to make large US trucks look better than small European and Japanese cars?
Real life users report the VW gets 48 MPG and the smallest ford F150 23 MPG would confirm the tests have a "defeat" device to make heavier cars look better than they are.
On the Ford best selling model specs can I find anything about emission levels, The 2016 model is listed as TBA making the buyer choice a bit blind based on emissions? You have to dig deep on the fuel economy site to find the now so important smog tests.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=35354&id=3...
Real life users report the VW gets 48 MPG and the smallest ford F150 23 MPG would confirm the tests have a "defeat" device to make heavier cars look better than they are.
On the Ford best selling model specs can I find anything about emission levels, The 2016 model is listed as TBA making the buyer choice a bit blind based on emissions? You have to dig deep on the fuel economy site to find the now so important smog tests.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=35354&id=3...
No, half a billion dollars spread out among several environmental charities would not likely affect any legislation. Our legislators have already been given far more, and promised far more, than that.
If the car can be made almost pollution free by software to pass the emissions tests, doesn't that mean that a software fix could make the car pollution free all the time?
How much loss of mileage or pep would be involved? The NY Times should really look into this. My lungs would like to know.
How much loss of mileage or pep would be involved? The NY Times should really look into this. My lungs would like to know.
The urea-based systems that BMW, Mercedes and some Audis use apparently works quite well - it preserves high mileage, good performance, and clean emissions. Volkswagen should be able to engineer a retrofit to their cars to use that system; install it and service it for the life of the cars free of charge. W
I feel betrayed by Volkswagen, which has given new meaning to its classic advertising slogan for the VW Beetle, (the first car that I bought back in 1968), "Think Small."
I bought a 2010 Jetta TDI in November 2009, attracted by the promise of it being a "clean diesel," getting 45-50 mpg highway, having great handling and being a fun car to have. I also received a $1200 tax credit from the government.
My Jetta TDI has been economical, fun to drive, and I felt that I was helping the environment. Any recall will likely reduce the economy and performance, and turn it into just another car on the road. More important, Volkswagen has by its actions lost my faith in them.
Volkswagen's best plan, for owners and its own brand. would be to offer
to repair all cars and then 1) pay $5000 to each owner that wanted to keep the repaired car or 2) pay book value the day before the news broke plus $1000; in my case $9000, so people could then buy another car that was not a Volkswagen or 3) offer a $12,000 rebate on any new VW for owners who wanted to trade in their old car but stay with VW, thus helping their sales. All three options would be quick and generate good will and 1 and 3 would keep a lot of people driving VWs on the road. For me, however, my Volkswagen days are over. Thanks for the memories.
I bought a 2010 Jetta TDI in November 2009, attracted by the promise of it being a "clean diesel," getting 45-50 mpg highway, having great handling and being a fun car to have. I also received a $1200 tax credit from the government.
My Jetta TDI has been economical, fun to drive, and I felt that I was helping the environment. Any recall will likely reduce the economy and performance, and turn it into just another car on the road. More important, Volkswagen has by its actions lost my faith in them.
Volkswagen's best plan, for owners and its own brand. would be to offer
to repair all cars and then 1) pay $5000 to each owner that wanted to keep the repaired car or 2) pay book value the day before the news broke plus $1000; in my case $9000, so people could then buy another car that was not a Volkswagen or 3) offer a $12,000 rebate on any new VW for owners who wanted to trade in their old car but stay with VW, thus helping their sales. All three options would be quick and generate good will and 1 and 3 would keep a lot of people driving VWs on the road. For me, however, my Volkswagen days are over. Thanks for the memories.
1
I believe that VW should treat this as an opportunity to turn a negative into a positive. With half a million vehicles involved, and the company allocating $16,000 per vehicle to solve this, it is possible that VW could create a new approach to ending carbon use in vehicle propulsion. I am a member of one of the PIRGs - and have been since 2001. I got a message from Greg Vezina yesterday, that Hydrofuel Inc. would be able to do a conversion to ammonia plus include a year's supply of fuel for that amount. This would mean that VW diesels would become part of what proponents of NH3 as a fuel have been saying over the years, that this option "is the only practical way to implement the hydrogen economy".
This problem of deceptive emission control should be looked at from a Rotarian point of view. It should be seen as a case of looking at a problem as an opportunity. I would urge everyone to read Sean Doyle's article "Not An Easy Fix" from US PIRG. I have been channeling messages within some of the PIRGs on how this could become an opportunity to go to the next level in ending hydrocarbon use in vehicles. http://www.uspirg.org/blogs/blog/usp/not-easy-fix
This problem of deceptive emission control should be looked at from a Rotarian point of view. It should be seen as a case of looking at a problem as an opportunity. I would urge everyone to read Sean Doyle's article "Not An Easy Fix" from US PIRG. I have been channeling messages within some of the PIRGs on how this could become an opportunity to go to the next level in ending hydrocarbon use in vehicles. http://www.uspirg.org/blogs/blog/usp/not-easy-fix
I breath the air that is polluted by 40 times more than emission standard permit. What is Volkswagen going to do for me?
2
Crybaby. Go walk behind a city bus that's powered by "clean" diesel.
My Jetta TDI was sold with the explicit advertising that it was a clean car that performed and got great mileage (recently 720 miles on one tank!). Love it still and am horrified on its emissions - which was my main reason for buying it. So basically my decision was based on VWs fraudulent claims.
Give me a 2016 Jetta TSI as a replacement less mileage at $0.56/mile per Federal mileage rates (fuel and wear and tear figure into this) on my 2015. While disappointed, I am currently looking at the Golf Sportwagon TSI for space, mileage and perfomance. VW quality is VW quality, do right by the loyal fans of VW please - we deserve better.
Give me a 2016 Jetta TSI as a replacement less mileage at $0.56/mile per Federal mileage rates (fuel and wear and tear figure into this) on my 2015. While disappointed, I am currently looking at the Golf Sportwagon TSI for space, mileage and perfomance. VW quality is VW quality, do right by the loyal fans of VW please - we deserve better.
Your brand loyalty is puzzling.
Perhaps VW could give everybody a Tesla.
2
geeze, Ì wonder if any of V-dub's supporters gave thought to running a brand new one off a dealer's lot for a stringent California smog check? Could be interesting...
This will be a stern test of the owners' green bona fides.
How many of them will take their Volkswagen TDIs in for the recall fix, knowing that both fuel economy and performance will be reduced as a result?
Oh, the hypocrisy! There will be a hot market in un-neutered TDI diesels.
How many of them will take their Volkswagen TDIs in for the recall fix, knowing that both fuel economy and performance will be reduced as a result?
Oh, the hypocrisy! There will be a hot market in un-neutered TDI diesels.
1
Nice ideas, but a little bird tells me they will get sued big time.
What occurs when the periodic state mandated emission test are performed. If there is failure and now the owners have to come into compliance before renewing the registration? New vehicles on the dealer lot; can they be sold?
1
I recently bought a non diesel Jetta. It will be the last VW or Audi I will ever buy. Put a price on that.
1
Change the scandal in opportunity. Assuming that VW selects all the involved cars less than 5 years old and fix them and for the over 5 years older it proposes to the customers a new one at a great discount (assume 20%) while picking back the used one. This will reduce up to a certain point the sales impact of new cars. Then fix and repair in a 'similar to new' the returned old cars and sell them at a price much lower than the real new and of the discounted one, this will further reduce the market impact and also get some new market openings thanks to the low price of the 'similar to new'. All this should be supported by an adequate marketing action. The advantage would be to keep the market and the workers occupation at a cost for VW probably less than for just fixing the customers defective cars. This business case could be proven valid only with the real data known only by the VW.
VW should cease to exist, period. The company is so corrupted and unethical, it can no longer be trusted with the manufacture of anything so important and potentially dangerous as a car. It strains the limits of credulity to believe that top management were "shocked, shocked" that fraud was being perpetrated in the next room. Yet, that's exactly what VW wants us to believe. For seven years, and millions of cars, this fraud went on. VW finally fessed up when the USA threatened VW's 2016 models would not be allowed anywhere near a dealership.
Now we see top management (but not the board who knew as well) being shown the door with their millions of dollars in severance packages while we customers are stuck with a car that is not the car we we told we were buying. There is no "fix" for this car. Owners should be reimbursed for the full price of the car.
Now we see top management (but not the board who knew as well) being shown the door with their millions of dollars in severance packages while we customers are stuck with a car that is not the car we we told we were buying. There is no "fix" for this car. Owners should be reimbursed for the full price of the car.
2
I lost interest in the VW line up around 1993. The cars became to Japanese, soft, weighty, and looked like a Honda to me. I also liked the simplicity of manual sunroofs and windows. They got more and more un simple.
That being said. I have not seen 1 true economy car since the Fox. Even the base Golf has a manual window, simple model, pre 93.
Release a competitor to the Hyundai Accent and Toyota Yaris.
Release a simple trim GTI. Without every conceivable power accessory. I have my 92 VW GTI 16v because of it's fun, lightness, and feel.
A Lupo Diesel like they have had for a few decades. True 80 MPG. There was petitions out requesting one from VW, and VW was too busy making VW Audis to consider a less expensive truly efficient car.
Just some thoughts.
The most responsible move with the scandal seems to be offering the full refund for every car sold with a TDI motor 2009 on up. If someone wishes to keep the car, they could offer a Fix and a size-able compensation that would make the value loss less a concern.
That being said. I have not seen 1 true economy car since the Fox. Even the base Golf has a manual window, simple model, pre 93.
Release a competitor to the Hyundai Accent and Toyota Yaris.
Release a simple trim GTI. Without every conceivable power accessory. I have my 92 VW GTI 16v because of it's fun, lightness, and feel.
A Lupo Diesel like they have had for a few decades. True 80 MPG. There was petitions out requesting one from VW, and VW was too busy making VW Audis to consider a less expensive truly efficient car.
Just some thoughts.
The most responsible move with the scandal seems to be offering the full refund for every car sold with a TDI motor 2009 on up. If someone wishes to keep the car, they could offer a Fix and a size-able compensation that would make the value loss less a concern.
You neglect to explain what VW would do with the cars that they buy up: ship them to countries where they remain legal and sell them.
The US exports a huge number of used cars ... to central and south America, to Africa, to the middle-east, to Asia.
VW would take a loss on buying up the cars, because the overseas sales price wouldn't be a great price, but nothing like the loss of simply buying them and writing them off.
VW should pay the owners their original purchase price -- the owners need to buy a new car.
Nobody is going to want these cars if the pollution control is put on them to make them legal in the US -- they'll be pokey and have poor mileage and high maintenance costs.
The US exports a huge number of used cars ... to central and south America, to Africa, to the middle-east, to Asia.
VW would take a loss on buying up the cars, because the overseas sales price wouldn't be a great price, but nothing like the loss of simply buying them and writing them off.
VW should pay the owners their original purchase price -- the owners need to buy a new car.
Nobody is going to want these cars if the pollution control is put on them to make them legal in the US -- they'll be pokey and have poor mileage and high maintenance costs.
1
Another job for Ken Feinberg.
2
I bought a VW Beetle TDI, convertible in 2014. I thought long and hard before buying it. But the clean diesel won me over. Well, that and the convertible. I looked at a number of hybrid cars, but read all of technical data available on environmental impact of producing hybrid batteries and the issues with battery disposal if they need to be replaced and decided on the TDI.
I am one of the many customers who bought this car based on its environmental impact. I feel duped and I am more than a little angry!
My car is a "cute" polluter and just a tad embarrassing to drive.
I am not sure what VW can do at this point to satisfy me. My car has 10,000 miles and looks and smells brand new!
I am one of the many customers who bought this car based on its environmental impact. I feel duped and I am more than a little angry!
My car is a "cute" polluter and just a tad embarrassing to drive.
I am not sure what VW can do at this point to satisfy me. My car has 10,000 miles and looks and smells brand new!
2
I find it hard to believe that it was so much easier to figure out a system to defeat the testing than it was to engineer a clean car. This is disgusting. VW should have to pay a high price for this treachery.
3
EPA: fine VW the FULL $18 BILLION, and make them give NEW cars to all current owners...!!!
2
I am driving audi sport for 20 yrs and the car runs on 53 mpg still. Can you imagine how much nox it saved ?
I own a gas powered VW and opted out of the Diesel over the heavily padded pricing at the time I purchased last and the stories of expensive out of warranty costs associated with the piezo high pressure fuel systems of VW diesels. The math showed that the difference between the asking price for the same model in gas and diesel factoring fuel economy and price of fuel actually favored a gas engine.
I still would like a diesel to convert to bio-diesel and may grab one of these at the newer prices- beaten down by the emissions issues.
I still would like a diesel to convert to bio-diesel and may grab one of these at the newer prices- beaten down by the emissions issues.
It's complicated - making TDI owner whole depends on his/her situation. NOx is not a greenhouse gas, and "repairs" that get the NOx in line will result in substantially lower fuel economy and thus higher carbon (greenhouse) emissions and higher fuel costs. For people who are NOT in cities or other smog-prone areas, NOx might be considered a less severe problem than carbon. Since I live in suburban Long Island, two options that work for me are: 1) buy the car back at full purchase price (not a likely outcome); and 2) write me a check for the full pre-scandal Blue Book value to cover my loss of resale value, and let me keep the car. The latter also depends on assurance that NY state would allow me to drive the car until I say it's ready for the crusher, without "fixing" the NOx issue and without paying any fine or penalty for driving a non-compliant car.
1
VW is most likely to pay for the extras cost of fuel
incurred from degraded performance and the reduced
resale value to those who sell it at the time of settlement.
It is not clear if VW touted the cars as green. The
main selling proposition was the fuel efficiency. This
is the reason they cheated because the fuel efficiency
couldn't be achieved without tampering the software.
The big cost to VW, BMW and Mercedez will be the
invention of non-diesel engine. The diesel technology
is the casualty of this scandal. It will cost plenty to
develop a new technology based engine that delivers
high fuel performance and low emission. Most probably
all auto companies are guilty. The advertised fuel
efficiency doesn't match the actual performance.
incurred from degraded performance and the reduced
resale value to those who sell it at the time of settlement.
It is not clear if VW touted the cars as green. The
main selling proposition was the fuel efficiency. This
is the reason they cheated because the fuel efficiency
couldn't be achieved without tampering the software.
The big cost to VW, BMW and Mercedez will be the
invention of non-diesel engine. The diesel technology
is the casualty of this scandal. It will cost plenty to
develop a new technology based engine that delivers
high fuel performance and low emission. Most probably
all auto companies are guilty. The advertised fuel
efficiency doesn't match the actual performance.
Too many times has compensation and money been the way out for companies conniving to blatantly break the law. This needs to stop. Punitive measures have failed to stop this behavior. One needs to set an example- criminal charges for the company and individuals; and a blanket ban of sale of the companies products....why should they have a way out? Its not like we all need a Volkswagen to live- but we do need clean air to live healthy.
5
I do not own a VW, although I considered buying a TDI. My consideration was based on the possibility of driving a vehicle with acceptable mileage NOT because it was a "clean" vehicle. It is shortsighted to look at only one side of the discussion. A vehicle that uses less fuel equals less emissions for an equal amount of driving. If someone purchased a diesel vehicle to "reduce" emissions, they obviously did not do their homework.
I would love to see a follow up story that evaluates allowable EPA emission standards based on vehicle class.
In Texas for example, big diesel pickup trucks are very commonly used as commuter vehicles. The V8 Ford F-250s is one that immediately comes to mind, I see them with shiny chrome rims, custom paint jobs, lift kits, etc. Add-ons that suggest their owners rarely have any off-road or utility use other than driving a big truck.
How do allowable emissions from these diesel trucks compare to the VW TDI lineups? My TDI can get 48MPG whereas an F-250 gets about 12-13 miles per gallon of diesel. The caveat is cause these trucks are classified differently they are environmentally 'compliant' per EPA standards.
In Texas for example, big diesel pickup trucks are very commonly used as commuter vehicles. The V8 Ford F-250s is one that immediately comes to mind, I see them with shiny chrome rims, custom paint jobs, lift kits, etc. Add-ons that suggest their owners rarely have any off-road or utility use other than driving a big truck.
How do allowable emissions from these diesel trucks compare to the VW TDI lineups? My TDI can get 48MPG whereas an F-250 gets about 12-13 miles per gallon of diesel. The caveat is cause these trucks are classified differently they are environmentally 'compliant' per EPA standards.
4
This is great news and I am actively looking to pick up a great VW diesel for a bargain!
There are two distinct objectives in this situation -- compensating the owners and punishing VW. Compensating the owners requires a choice: VW should offer to buy back the defective cars at their fair market value as of immediately before the announcement or fix them, at the owners election (but only after disclosure of how the fix will affect performance, mileage, etc.). Punishment should be left to fines and other governmental sanctions.
2
Not entirely. VW should also be punished by car-owners who have been compensated for their defective cars deciding never, ever to buy another VW.
11 million former customers and everyone they influence boycotting VW forever might send a message. " Fool me once ..."
11 million former customers and everyone they influence boycotting VW forever might send a message. " Fool me once ..."
Bought my current two TDI's for the MILEAGE not the save the earth nonsense. I would continue to drive my diesels with black soot billowing out of them as long as they get 40-50mpg. That being said the emissions systems on these cars have been a huge reliability pitfall from the start and require an obscene amount of money to maintain and repair, so if they offer me a check I will accept, but I will not have them "fix" my car to decrease performance and mpg to reduce emissions. People need to realize that diesel cars are capable of 100+ miles per gallon when allowed to run at their most efficient, but the EPA mandates that car makers exchange efficiency for cleanliness, and so we get cars that burn twice the fuel for half the mileage. Does anyone not understand that we are polluting the same or more when we burn twice the fuel? A gallon of diesel has twice the energy stored in it than gas, but gas is seen as the cleaner fuel because of what it looks like when burned. God save us from ourselves...and the EPA.
8
Larry,
You should look at the numbers again. In this case the emissions or 10-40x greater, not the 2x you mention. To reduce the mpg to the point that you emit the same per mile (what I take the base of your argument to be), your car would have to have it's mpg reduced to between 1mpg and 5mpg. Perhaps in this case you should cut the EPA some slack...
You should look at the numbers again. In this case the emissions or 10-40x greater, not the 2x you mention. To reduce the mpg to the point that you emit the same per mile (what I take the base of your argument to be), your car would have to have it's mpg reduced to between 1mpg and 5mpg. Perhaps in this case you should cut the EPA some slack...
8
Psoukup,
10-40x NOx, not anything else. Note that other diesels with urea injection to reduce these are in compliance. They can't just slap this equipment on older cars.
10-40x NOx, not anything else. Note that other diesels with urea injection to reduce these are in compliance. They can't just slap this equipment on older cars.
In addition to psoukup's comments, I'd like to add that the "nonsense" to which Larry refers is not only aesthetically better air, but also saved lives and fewer less serious health impacts. There are mountains of scientific evidence that the major component of diesel exhaust, particulate matter, exacerbates respiratory ailments and can lead to cardiac events. Many of those fatal... "Save the earth"? The impacts of climate change are already evident (google "syrian 'civil war' 'climate change' nytimes" to come back to this source for a discussion of a complex impact) and scientific consensus near 100%. Larry's opinion about "save the earth nonsense" is not only evidence of ignorance; it is a very dangerous opinion.
4
There is a lot of outrage here, justifiably so. I own a 2010 Jetta Wagon TDI. I received $1,300 in low emissions tax credits when I purchased my car. That alone should subject the company to a substantial corporate fine, and those members of VW management responsible for this fiasco to criminal prosecution.
However, the actual environmental damage caused by these has yet to be determined. VW diesel produced prior to the ones in question still pass California smog tests. It is possible that the current crop would pass these tests without the defeat software, although they could not meet VW’s low emissions claims. I realize that would not make what VW’s cheating acceptable, but let’s get all the facts out, and determine what fixes, if any, are possible before we decide on penalties.
However, the actual environmental damage caused by these has yet to be determined. VW diesel produced prior to the ones in question still pass California smog tests. It is possible that the current crop would pass these tests without the defeat software, although they could not meet VW’s low emissions claims. I realize that would not make what VW’s cheating acceptable, but let’s get all the facts out, and determine what fixes, if any, are possible before we decide on penalties.
6
There are four sides to this saga.
1) Cars should be fixed ASAP to assure no further damage is inflicted on the environment.
2) The company should begin negotiations with the federal government regarding a financial settlement.This is not as difficult as it seems. Calculate the amount of additional pollution that was released,add a hefty sum as punitive damage and you have a number.
3) Give effected owner the option to keep their repaired cars with some additional compensation,give them a generous trade in for a new vehicle or buy them back outright.
4) I am no lawyer,however it was done intentionally and if corporations are people, someone should go to jail.
1) Cars should be fixed ASAP to assure no further damage is inflicted on the environment.
2) The company should begin negotiations with the federal government regarding a financial settlement.This is not as difficult as it seems. Calculate the amount of additional pollution that was released,add a hefty sum as punitive damage and you have a number.
3) Give effected owner the option to keep their repaired cars with some additional compensation,give them a generous trade in for a new vehicle or buy them back outright.
4) I am no lawyer,however it was done intentionally and if corporations are people, someone should go to jail.
7
The cars can't be fixed easily, if at all. The necessary equipment to reduce oxides of nitrogen (the only pollutant out of spec) was omitted from these cars. Other models with urea injection including BMW, Mercedes, and yes, even VW are in compliance. This was an illegal cost-cutting decision with disastrous consequences.
2
Volkswagen will never be able to reimburse its customers for the fraud it has committed: the money is long gone. In hindsight it is clear that a diesel engine could not do what it was claimed it did. This again shows the disregard of ethics in a corporation: all organization men, just following orders. And they cannot claim that they did not know about it. In Germany many managers are engineers. I feel "shocked and stunned" by this all as well. It is quite disgusting.
1
Volkswagen can compensate diesel owners buying back their cars for double price of what they paid.
Moreover, remembering that 15% of VW is State owned, my thought goes to Greece, whom Germany imposed to sell all public properties to have the promised EU money.
Germany merit no trust, having still in mind to conquer the world in one way or the other.
Moreover, remembering that 15% of VW is State owned, my thought goes to Greece, whom Germany imposed to sell all public properties to have the promised EU money.
Germany merit no trust, having still in mind to conquer the world in one way or the other.
3
The crime here is to the environment. VW has put a half million polluting cars out by fraudulently claiming they were clean. The damage to air quality will last for decades unless VW gets the cars off the road and they won't and that's the problem, the cars will still be out there making smog and killing us for decades. Diesel cars are worse than gas when it comes to smog, which directly attacks kids lungs especially. VW should absolutely buy back and scrap all the cars, and the EPA should force those whose cars are dirty to sell them to VW. We all know none of that will happen. Maybe VW built the US plant and US jobs just to make it too big to fail. If any makers cars such as Mercedes tests honestly to have clean diesel, there's your answer: vouchers for all VW victims to trade in for new clean diesels. If clean diesel is a hoax, well, us city dwellers are going to have shorter, more choking lives.
Clean diesel is a reality and even VW has clean models, they just made a horrible cost-cutting decision to leave NOx reduction equipment off the lower-line models.
1
My husband's 10 year old Pontiac died somewhere in the hills of Tennessee, so suddenly carless, he launched himself somewhat happily into a massive car search for The Perfect Car. After a couple of months, he called from a dealer and said he'd just bought an Audi A3. Driving it home, fiddling with the complicated controls, it became obvious that the car was designed with the engineer in mind, not the driver. I now understand that the drive to be the top has influenced everything at VW.
There so many Jettas, Passats and Audis on the road here in Atlanta - I don't know how many are diesels, but now, when, I see them, I immediately wonder if they are the "bad" ones. Not the reaction Volkswagen is wanting. The hubs now drives a Kia.
There so many Jettas, Passats and Audis on the road here in Atlanta - I don't know how many are diesels, but now, when, I see them, I immediately wonder if they are the "bad" ones. Not the reaction Volkswagen is wanting. The hubs now drives a Kia.
The corporation is guilty of theft by deception. Armed robbery is a more 'honest' and straightforward transaction . Their officers belong in prison.
3
1. I think VW should pay a billion dollar fine.
2. VW should be given a tight timeframe to repair each and every vehicle. Being reasonable, let's say March 31, 2016. And a $1 million per day fine for each day after that a vehicle has not been repaired.
3. Refund all monies paid to Volkswagen for the purchase or lease of the vehicle.
4. Give drivers the option of keeping their repaired vehicle, or returning it to VW.
I don't think this will happen, but it would sure teach them a lesson.
2. VW should be given a tight timeframe to repair each and every vehicle. Being reasonable, let's say March 31, 2016. And a $1 million per day fine for each day after that a vehicle has not been repaired.
3. Refund all monies paid to Volkswagen for the purchase or lease of the vehicle.
4. Give drivers the option of keeping their repaired vehicle, or returning it to VW.
I don't think this will happen, but it would sure teach them a lesson.
1
New York State mandates annual car inspections that include an emissions test. The cars are hooked up to a monitor that feeds the results directly to an office in Albany. So my question is did the software trick the NY test too? I assume other states like California test emissions as well.
A defeat device works because the software detects whether the vehicle is moving on a road or moving on a treadmill. So any state test that isn't an actual "road test" could also be fooled by the defeat device. VW isn't the first company to use a defeat device; Cadillac used a device that turned off emission controls when the vehicle's heat or air conditioner was on.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-how-volk...
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/vw-emissions-defeat-device-isnt-first
I drive a 2001 gasoline engine 6-cyl VW Passat. I have been taking my VW to the same dealership for 15 years, so I have had contact with VW for a long time. I also just spent thousands of dollars having my VW's catalytic converters replaced. My view is that in order for VW to restore credibility with future customers, they have to offer to buy the affected vehicle back or repair the vehicle, driver's choice, however much that might cost VW, in addition to paying fines for violating the Clean Air Act, making false statements, etc. I'm not planning on buying another VW unless VW fixes things here. Making false statements to regulatory agencies is a felony, so individuals at VW convicted of making false statements should go to jail. Of course, no one has gone to jail at GM yet, and individuals at GM made plenty of false statements. But there is still time for the Justice Department to get things right at GM, and VW.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-how-volk...
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/vw-emissions-defeat-device-isnt-first
I drive a 2001 gasoline engine 6-cyl VW Passat. I have been taking my VW to the same dealership for 15 years, so I have had contact with VW for a long time. I also just spent thousands of dollars having my VW's catalytic converters replaced. My view is that in order for VW to restore credibility with future customers, they have to offer to buy the affected vehicle back or repair the vehicle, driver's choice, however much that might cost VW, in addition to paying fines for violating the Clean Air Act, making false statements, etc. I'm not planning on buying another VW unless VW fixes things here. Making false statements to regulatory agencies is a felony, so individuals at VW convicted of making false statements should go to jail. Of course, no one has gone to jail at GM yet, and individuals at GM made plenty of false statements. But there is still time for the Justice Department to get things right at GM, and VW.
2
Actually California discovered the problem
and referred to EPA for further testing to confirm
their own findings.
and referred to EPA for further testing to confirm
their own findings.
1
Mr. Lieber’s proposal to give TDI owners a $1,000 gift card for donations to an environmental charity is ill-advised, in that it would victimize TDI owners yet again by forcing them to make restitution on behalf of VW, when they were not the ones who did anything wrong. VW should take back the cars and refund the purchase price, neatly and simply. This should be done before, and even perhaps in lieu of, being fined by the government, so owners aren’t caught in limbo through years of litigation. The priority should be getting these cars off the road as quickly as possible.
5
VW will likely propose some small compensation for owners, and those owners will likely pursue a class-action lawsuit. It will drag on for years.
While everyone is screaming for blood from VW, let's remember all of the other cases of corporate malfeasance, many of which have gotten people killed. I'm not suggesting lenience -- to the contrary, I'd like to simply start revoking corporate charters (or the right to operate in the U.S., for foreign companies) for these bad corporate citizens.
While everyone is screaming for blood from VW, let's remember all of the other cases of corporate malfeasance, many of which have gotten people killed. I'm not suggesting lenience -- to the contrary, I'd like to simply start revoking corporate charters (or the right to operate in the U.S., for foreign companies) for these bad corporate citizens.
2
Perhaps VW could offer to convert all the effected cars to. CNG. Much greener than diesel. They could also offer to help defray the cost of expansion of CNG stations. It would also help VW's drive for cleaner cars as a long term goal. Expensive perhaps but cheaper in the long run as opposed to all other options proposed so far.
1
OK, marks for thinking outside the box there, but yanking out the existing powerplant and retrofitting in a new one of a different type out in the wild (as opposed to the factory) is going to be so incredibly complex, time consuming, expensive, and hard to manage for half a million vehicles, they'd probably come out ahead by putting everyone into a new Audi etron ... (exaggerating a bit, but I hope the point comes across).
I don't understand why folks are suggesting the fraud announcement date as a reasonable point from which to calculate refunds to owners of affected vehicles. VW was aware of its fraud from Day 1. Just because consumers weren't is irrelevant. The harm began from the date of sale of each and every one of these cars.
33
This makes no sense.
Owners should not get refunds for the damage to the environment and to everyone else. That should be part of whatever fine the regulators impose, and or other agreement to pay into some fund to support studies and research on emissions, smog, etc.
If owners get money it should be due to either a) loss of performance once cars are fixed to comply with emissions; or, b) a buy-back from VW, in which case the market value of the vehicles should be based on the date before it became widely known that they had a major defect. That is the reason everyone is using that date.
Perhaps for buybacks, anyone who bought within 30 days from when the scandal broke should get an outright refund of the purchase price.
Owners should not get refunds for the damage to the environment and to everyone else. That should be part of whatever fine the regulators impose, and or other agreement to pay into some fund to support studies and research on emissions, smog, etc.
If owners get money it should be due to either a) loss of performance once cars are fixed to comply with emissions; or, b) a buy-back from VW, in which case the market value of the vehicles should be based on the date before it became widely known that they had a major defect. That is the reason everyone is using that date.
Perhaps for buybacks, anyone who bought within 30 days from when the scandal broke should get an outright refund of the purchase price.
Thank you - right to the point. TDIs were sold on a falsehood and we need our original price paid back. Maybe they can use the recalled cars for parts.
This whole "scandal" is getting rather silly. For years Volkswagen cheated on emissions tests, causing buyers to get better performance than they deserved. For years, General Motors knowingly sold cars with ignition switches that shut the engines off at random moments, causing buyers to be killed in accidents. Which crime is worse?
14
Why is it one or the other? Both are serious offenses that the companies need to make up for.
"For years, General Motors knowingly sold cars with ignition switches that shut the engines off at random moments, causing buyers to be killed in accidents. Which crime is worse?" Arguably, VW's, since the amount of additional emissions is so vast that it can be statistically tied to many more deaths than were caused by GM's ignition switch problem.
The fact that there are always other, "worse" crimes happening in the world is not a free pass to commit crime. For example, a mugger beats you badly and takes your money (God forbid!). When caught, he says he doesn't see what all the fuss is about, because there were 5 other cases that day where the victum was murdered!
Would someone please quantify the damage done by the pollution from these Volkswagen diesel vehicles?
How many tons of bad stuff have been wafted into the air? How much of that bad stuff washed out of the air in rain? How many people fell dead in the streets because of all those tons of pollution? How many rescuers rushing it to save the people of Donora, PA dropped dead in the streets? How many fish died because of the bad stuff in the air? How much of the bad stuff was trapped under inversions and exported to the next country?
Or are we hiding under our beds to avoid the boogey man than Mary Nichols created? Fix the blame, ignore the problem?
For comparison, how much other bad stuff do we have in the air? How much bad stuff to we unwittingly import from China?
What are the top three sources of bad stuff in the air? Where does the VW diesel rank on the list of sources of bad stuff in the air? Mary Nichols, are you reading this? CDC are you reading this?
How many tons of bad stuff have been wafted into the air? How much of that bad stuff washed out of the air in rain? How many people fell dead in the streets because of all those tons of pollution? How many rescuers rushing it to save the people of Donora, PA dropped dead in the streets? How many fish died because of the bad stuff in the air? How much of the bad stuff was trapped under inversions and exported to the next country?
Or are we hiding under our beds to avoid the boogey man than Mary Nichols created? Fix the blame, ignore the problem?
For comparison, how much other bad stuff do we have in the air? How much bad stuff to we unwittingly import from China?
What are the top three sources of bad stuff in the air? Where does the VW diesel rank on the list of sources of bad stuff in the air? Mary Nichols, are you reading this? CDC are you reading this?
3
And while someone is quantifying the amount of bad stuff from the VW diesels, can someone please estimate the amount of bad stuff added to the air from the numerous road side fires started by the belch-fire diesel soot removal systems?
NJ Consumer Fraud Act - Triple damages, plus attorneys fees. I figure that three times the purchase price would just about adequately compensate me for the breach of trust.
1
Seriously. I really don't care much about the environment when I bought my VW diesel. It's all about the fuel economy and the long, long, long engine life (My Golf is at 512K right now,, my previous diesel Jetta hit 450K).
Turns out that being fuel efficient is *also* less polluting, but why let any facts get in the way of a good pile-on. So throw away those very fuel efficient diesels and climb on back into your SUV's and trucks, they don't follow the same standard so no need to cheat. .. You'll feel much better.
Turns out that being fuel efficient is *also* less polluting, but why let any facts get in the way of a good pile-on. So throw away those very fuel efficient diesels and climb on back into your SUV's and trucks, they don't follow the same standard so no need to cheat. .. You'll feel much better.
6
Volkswagen has not only destroyed the confidence in the company, but the trust in all the German industry, which for decades made a large propaganda to by German products joust because Germans work better and they merited confidence.
The VW cheat demonstrated that the major German's industry will was cheating the customers.
Germany always repeated in the EU that all southerns are cheater and lazy, so they have to respect the German rules to become better, as they did with Greece.
But the German arrogant superiority has been shown also in USA with the great VW cheat, while they ads were telling: be confident, it is Volkswagen!
Now the king showed himself necked and with him also Ms Merkel, who was heading personally the German car-manufacturers lobby at the European Parliament and Commission.
So Ms Merkel will have some problems next fall to be re-elected chancellor, as she dreams.
Might be this will be also the good occasion to take to better thought Mr Schäuble, and he might finally remember that in 1953 Germany was saved by the allies which made them an 80% discount on their National debit.
Coming back to the title question, Volkswagen can compensate diesel owners buying back their cars for double price of what they paid.
Moreover, remembering that 15% of VW is State owned, my thought goes to Greece, whom Germany imposed to sell all national properties to have the promised EU money.
Germany merit no trust, having still in mind to conquer the world in one way or the other.
The VW cheat demonstrated that the major German's industry will was cheating the customers.
Germany always repeated in the EU that all southerns are cheater and lazy, so they have to respect the German rules to become better, as they did with Greece.
But the German arrogant superiority has been shown also in USA with the great VW cheat, while they ads were telling: be confident, it is Volkswagen!
Now the king showed himself necked and with him also Ms Merkel, who was heading personally the German car-manufacturers lobby at the European Parliament and Commission.
So Ms Merkel will have some problems next fall to be re-elected chancellor, as she dreams.
Might be this will be also the good occasion to take to better thought Mr Schäuble, and he might finally remember that in 1953 Germany was saved by the allies which made them an 80% discount on their National debit.
Coming back to the title question, Volkswagen can compensate diesel owners buying back their cars for double price of what they paid.
Moreover, remembering that 15% of VW is State owned, my thought goes to Greece, whom Germany imposed to sell all national properties to have the promised EU money.
Germany merit no trust, having still in mind to conquer the world in one way or the other.
As a first-time VW Jetta diesel owner, I bought the car for the high performance, gas mileage and environmental protection the company promoted. I feel totally mislead and lied to. I now have great skepticism about whatever fix VW may come up with. If the remedy does not make me "whole" in terms of performance, mileage and environmental safety, I would expect a total refund of what I paid for the car plus "damages." In fact, to maintain me as a customer, they would need to provide added value in the fix. By the way, I would not trust any VW fix without any independent testing/verification.
1
It seems to me that Volkswagen should pay to the EPA all purchase prices and interest that they received for all of the Diesel cars that the sold during that period. Other wise there will not be insufficient deterrence to other auto manufacturers -- thus creating a moral hazard.
Then anyone having one of these offending diesels should be permitted to exchange it for a new non-offending cars at no cost.
Then anyone having one of these offending diesels should be permitted to exchange it for a new non-offending cars at no cost.
The greatest damage is clearly to the earth and all the living things upon it. Those who have suggested that VW should be required, for a period of time, to exceed current and future emission standards in the amount required to offset the amount or extra emissions they produced are clearly on the right track. Secondly, owners of the affected vehicles should be compensated for the cost of additional fuel required after their vehicles are fixed.
My biggest concern is how VW is going to fix vehicles that are not voluntary brought in for correction. Many owners will do so, of course, but some will either take a cynical approach and decide they like the vehicles just the way they are or will just skip the recall. Several studies show that a large percent of recalled vehicles are never brought back to the dealer for the recall.
In this case it may be up to the states to require proof of correction for these vehicles at the time of registration renewal. To get the states to do this may take action at the federal level. I hope it can be handled by the existing regulatory process since getting anything through congress is highly unlikely these days.
My biggest concern is how VW is going to fix vehicles that are not voluntary brought in for correction. Many owners will do so, of course, but some will either take a cynical approach and decide they like the vehicles just the way they are or will just skip the recall. Several studies show that a large percent of recalled vehicles are never brought back to the dealer for the recall.
In this case it may be up to the states to require proof of correction for these vehicles at the time of registration renewal. To get the states to do this may take action at the federal level. I hope it can be handled by the existing regulatory process since getting anything through congress is highly unlikely these days.
1
They can't refit urea-injection equipment onto cars that were never designed to have it. I'll wager that buy-back or hefty trade-in allowances are the only thing that is going to remedy these cars.
Is VW not guilty of theft by deception? Is that not a felony? Armed robbery seems more honest and straightforward.
I like my TDi...the torque of a diesel is much different than the 'rev it to go" but it makes for relaxed driving and great around town pull.
I didn't buy the car for the eco-weenie aspect...it was nice, but not the selling point.
I will not be turning it in for any mods that decrease the power or mileage. Gas WILL be $4 per gallon again, and I bought this to have two motor fuels in the house for times of shortage for whatever reason...remember Sandy ?
I didn't buy the car for the eco-weenie aspect...it was nice, but not the selling point.
I will not be turning it in for any mods that decrease the power or mileage. Gas WILL be $4 per gallon again, and I bought this to have two motor fuels in the house for times of shortage for whatever reason...remember Sandy ?
Replace every diesel vehicle with a non diesel since the diesel performance cannot meet current specs with actual emission controls in place.
To guarantee that similar frauds will occur in the future, simply allow the criminals to hide behind the corporation with the stockholders picking up the tab. The criminals responsible should be indicted, extradited, tried and imprisoned.
1
The next article is this column should be titled "How Volkswagen Could Compensate the World."
I don't own a VW, nor am I a shareholder. But I have been harmed by Volkswagen's deception. My environment has been damaged.
When do I get my check?
I don't own a VW, nor am I a shareholder. But I have been harmed by Volkswagen's deception. My environment has been damaged.
When do I get my check?
I bought a Jetta TDI three years ago. I wanted awesome fuel economy and was told the emissions were not that bad. The diesel engines cost about $2400 more. I consistently got about 45mpg (occasionally much more if I could keep the speedometer in the 65-68 mph range), in contrast to the gasoline engine's reported 32mpg (I might do better than that driving a stick the way I do). If the software fixes knock my fuel economy back to the gasoline engine's but keep the emissions lower, I would be happy with $2000 or so to cover the different cost. The company should pay everyone else, through the state or local governments, a large penalty for the excess pollution.
I wanted this car to last 12 years. It has its foibles, but if things can be made right, I will keep it as long as I can or until a cost-effective way for me to get around without much carbon emissions and particulates arises. I try to walk when possible and will continue to do so, but I will not be as smug when passed by SUVs getting 1/3 of my MPGs.
I wanted this car to last 12 years. It has its foibles, but if things can be made right, I will keep it as long as I can or until a cost-effective way for me to get around without much carbon emissions and particulates arises. I try to walk when possible and will continue to do so, but I will not be as smug when passed by SUVs getting 1/3 of my MPGs.
2
All the complaints that the "fixed" cars will suffer from reduced "performance" is so much foolishness. It was the desire of buyers for "performance" in the first place that led to this problem. Plenty of the owners who get their cars "fixed" will perceive reduced "performance" even if there is no difference in acceleration and related matters. VW could attempt to sidestep that problem by testing each vehicle before and after the fix, and providing a report to owners, but who would believe the reports?
Fine VW hugely, use the money for environmental protection and restoration, require VW to perform very large contributions to environmental service (for real, not the joke that sometimes passes for community service by criminals), fix the cars, don't let them be registered in any state if not fixed, and require VW to pay a reasonable amount (not a windfall amount) of compensation in cash ,not vouchers, to the owners.
Put the executives who made this happen in jail.
Fine VW hugely, use the money for environmental protection and restoration, require VW to perform very large contributions to environmental service (for real, not the joke that sometimes passes for community service by criminals), fix the cars, don't let them be registered in any state if not fixed, and require VW to pay a reasonable amount (not a windfall amount) of compensation in cash ,not vouchers, to the owners.
Put the executives who made this happen in jail.
2
My question with things like this is always "is someone going to jail for this?" I think we all harbor the expectation that the bit fraudster on the street should do time while termination of employment, possibly with a generous severance, is adequate for the masterminds of billion dollar frauds. I doubt these guys will even need to return any portion of the 6 figure bonuses they've gotten by upping profits through fraud.
Naw. This is simple and straightforward. Make Volkswagen take all of the cars back and refund the original purchase price to all owners. Then fine the company the maximum per car for this deliberate violation. Then prosecute everybody involved in putting this nefarious scheme into place -- there are plenty of legal avenues open for this --- and extradite the folks from the home office in Germany to the US for trial. Justice would be served and companies would get a very powerful lesson for the future....I'm sure US taxpayers would be happy to put a few German executives up in the Concrete Hotel in Ft. Leavenworth.
In addition to paying appropriate civil and/or criminal penalties for defrauding their customers, here’s how VW can and should make restitution:
1. Buy back each diesel vehicle they sold under fraudulent circumstances, paying each customer the difference between his or her purchase price and operating and maintenance costs (including extra cost of diesel fuel) and the purchase price and O&M costs of a Toyota Prius, escalated to current dollars.
2. Buy enough carbon credits to offset the pollution they caused through their fraudulent practices.
How much will this restitution cost VW? I have no idea. Will they do it? I very much doubt it.
1. Buy back each diesel vehicle they sold under fraudulent circumstances, paying each customer the difference between his or her purchase price and operating and maintenance costs (including extra cost of diesel fuel) and the purchase price and O&M costs of a Toyota Prius, escalated to current dollars.
2. Buy enough carbon credits to offset the pollution they caused through their fraudulent practices.
How much will this restitution cost VW? I have no idea. Will they do it? I very much doubt it.
You should look at the pharmaceutical industry, which pays massive fines over and over for killing people or making them sick. Look at the multiple billion dollar fines, the same pharma corp often paying a number of huge fines over the years.
The fines don't deter. They simply get built in as cost of business, and profit margins remain hugely above average. Even when a drug with known dangers (i.e. Vioxx increasing risk of thrombosis) is marketed while hiding the danger, nothing but a fine to the corp, no individual held responsible.
Although just like faulty airbags, ignition switches, and now criminally nonfunctional emission systems actually kill people.
Knowingly killing for profit: isn't this murder?
See: http://projects.propublica.org/graphics/bigpharma
The fines don't deter. They simply get built in as cost of business, and profit margins remain hugely above average. Even when a drug with known dangers (i.e. Vioxx increasing risk of thrombosis) is marketed while hiding the danger, nothing but a fine to the corp, no individual held responsible.
Although just like faulty airbags, ignition switches, and now criminally nonfunctional emission systems actually kill people.
Knowingly killing for profit: isn't this murder?
See: http://projects.propublica.org/graphics/bigpharma
For companies to be self-regulated into ethical behavior, penalties and costs need to be far more than they made with the bad behavior. How much is that in this case?
In my view, to bring back a previous case, the Secretary of the Treasury and CEO of Bank of America should have gone to prison for what I believe was securities fraud in the acquisition of Merrill Lynch. The $500 million in fines for mortgage fraud wasn't enough, because it seems BOM made much more than that on the bad deals. Government regulators are wimps.
In my view, to bring back a previous case, the Secretary of the Treasury and CEO of Bank of America should have gone to prison for what I believe was securities fraud in the acquisition of Merrill Lynch. The $500 million in fines for mortgage fraud wasn't enough, because it seems BOM made much more than that on the bad deals. Government regulators are wimps.
In 2006, I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid which advertised 50MPG. It delivered beautifully for the first three years, and then the battery started to die. The company, in order to compete with the Prius had rigged their cars to rely heavily on the battery, thus boosting its mileage. When they got caught, they had to downgrade their mileage. They "lobotomized" my hybrid system so that it basically didn't work. My mileage plummeted to 35 MPG and the car had absolutely NO POWER. The most infuriating upshot was Honda's attitude of "That's what you get." Oh, I got a certificate good for $1,000.00 toward another Honda. After basically shafting the public, there was no way I would ever buy another Japanese car, let alone a Honda.
Thereafter, I traded in the car on a VW Jetta Sportwagen. This time around, I will not accept anything less than the car I bargained for. I expect VW to make good on my mileage and performance as I expect to keep the car for the 200 to 300,000 they advertised. I will not let them "fix" their problem at my expense.
Thereafter, I traded in the car on a VW Jetta Sportwagen. This time around, I will not accept anything less than the car I bargained for. I expect VW to make good on my mileage and performance as I expect to keep the car for the 200 to 300,000 they advertised. I will not let them "fix" their problem at my expense.
11
Sure "industry-favorable" quarters would want compensatory damages paid. In cases like this however, the regulatory and civil courts system must take their role as "managing" business very seriously to lessen chances of future similar affairs (the minimizing, as Pope Francis puts it, of capitalism's production of "Satan's dung").
I recall a 1960's era nuclear power industry price fixing case(USA) following a guilt verdict and treble punitive damages, where one of the guilty companies each night flew cash into Pittsburgh to cover the next day's business. Today's internet and other electronic communication systems rule out that consequence, but such evident corporate pain must be present in any final resolution. That, coupled with real compensatory damages and a half-dozen or so VW senior executives receiving jail terms, might make owners somewhat whole again.
I recall a 1960's era nuclear power industry price fixing case(USA) following a guilt verdict and treble punitive damages, where one of the guilty companies each night flew cash into Pittsburgh to cover the next day's business. Today's internet and other electronic communication systems rule out that consequence, but such evident corporate pain must be present in any final resolution. That, coupled with real compensatory damages and a half-dozen or so VW senior executives receiving jail terms, might make owners somewhat whole again.
Winterkorn's suicide may help.
I too own a TDI, its full purchase price buyback or let's simply refuse to continue vw finance payments.
1
We are not hearing much from the anti-regulation crowd are we? This is what happens when no-one is watching.
Half a Billion are u nuts or did VW pay you tonwrite the Opinion ?
Compensating VW diesel owners is only one part of the required solution. Everyone who breathes needs to be compensated, but money won't do it. The VW Corporation needs to do something dramatic and effective to offset the destruction of our air that they intentionally polluted. Finally, the leaders of VW need to be personally punished. Fines to corporations are simply not sufficient to prevent intentional cheating as we have seen over and over and over.
I imported a German car many years ago, so I was able to experience the difference between the European and U.S. vehicles. Before the car was modified to EPA specs, this large Mercedes SEL moved like a sports car and used one gallon of gas every 30 miles (30 mpg). After EPA castrated it, I was getting 15-18 mpg and moving more like someone in a 2 1/2 ton sedan.
There is a huge performance loss due to EPA regs. That's why people are buying older vehicles that do not require EPA tests. They can remove the EPA spec equipment and get a fast, fuel efficient vehicle.
There is a huge performance loss due to EPA regs. That's why people are buying older vehicles that do not require EPA tests. They can remove the EPA spec equipment and get a fast, fuel efficient vehicle.
"Half a billion dollars could go a long way toward lobbying efforts that might lead to the kinds of rules that would scare auto company employees from ever pulling a stunt like this again."
The easiest way to do that is to put Winterkorn and some of his executives in prison for a few years.
The easiest way to do that is to put Winterkorn and some of his executives in prison for a few years.
Class action suits are especially well tuned to this sort of thing, at least in the US.
States should make laws banning these cars from the road unless they are brought to emissions compliance by Sept. 2016.
Since bringing these cars to emissions compliance will change the mileage of the cars, it's possible that VW would no longer be in CAFE compliance across their US 'fleet' of cars on the road. So the Feds could sue VW as well if that comes to pass.
States should make laws banning these cars from the road unless they are brought to emissions compliance by Sept. 2016.
Since bringing these cars to emissions compliance will change the mileage of the cars, it's possible that VW would no longer be in CAFE compliance across their US 'fleet' of cars on the road. So the Feds could sue VW as well if that comes to pass.
Too bad they can't compensate all the kids who have to breath in the results of their cheating.
1
The real question for owners and engineers is how will the car perform and hold up mechanically and electrically when running regularly with the legal emission standards in place. Was the car designed to operate on an ongoing basis with the compliant emission standards?
1
My first Volkswagen was a used 1963 VW Beatle. It was simple got great gas milage and ran for ever or would have until it was crushed by an idiot in a front end loader moving snow. I put a couple of hundred thousand miles on the little car and it got me from high school to college. I could fix it myself and I loved it.
It didn't need to have more electronics and computer power than the first Mercury Space Capsule and it's atlas rocket booster. It was a real Volkswagen a peoples car and yes Ferdinand Porsche built the first VWs for Hitler's Third Reich. But it became true to its name "the peoples car" of the American Youth in the 1960s and 1970s and the rest of the world to boot. It was reliable and cheap Beatles and a VW Bus got me through College and started in life .
Most importantly the VW Beatle was not the cars that VW is building now. About the closest thing to it manufactured today is the Honda Civic and that car too is way too complicated and expensive.
If Volkswagen wants to make amends for the damage it has done it should build an new "Peoples Car" As simple as possible and a good to the environment as it is possible to make it. Forget about self driving cars forget about internet connectivity in the car forget about GPS forget about satellite Radion forget about power everything. Make The VW simple again. Make it reliable and long lasting and make it run as clean as it is possible to make it.
In short go back to Ferdinand Porsche's original idea.
It didn't need to have more electronics and computer power than the first Mercury Space Capsule and it's atlas rocket booster. It was a real Volkswagen a peoples car and yes Ferdinand Porsche built the first VWs for Hitler's Third Reich. But it became true to its name "the peoples car" of the American Youth in the 1960s and 1970s and the rest of the world to boot. It was reliable and cheap Beatles and a VW Bus got me through College and started in life .
Most importantly the VW Beatle was not the cars that VW is building now. About the closest thing to it manufactured today is the Honda Civic and that car too is way too complicated and expensive.
If Volkswagen wants to make amends for the damage it has done it should build an new "Peoples Car" As simple as possible and a good to the environment as it is possible to make it. Forget about self driving cars forget about internet connectivity in the car forget about GPS forget about satellite Radion forget about power everything. Make The VW simple again. Make it reliable and long lasting and make it run as clean as it is possible to make it.
In short go back to Ferdinand Porsche's original idea.
1
The "VW diesel emission scandal" is a big deal but, in my opinion, is getting way over wrought now. It's not the end of the world. The last thing the EPA and other agencies should do is impose a crippling fine. VW is going to need the money to implement the fix. Not to mention they are one of the largest, and most generous, employers in Germany. As USA officials would say "....jobs!..." The diesel VWs and Audis are the same cars they were last week. Cars that owners were presumably happy with. Nothing has changed. Yes, NO2 emissions are too high. 40x? Other articles reviewing this have said that real world emissions are always higher than measured in test situations, as much as 10X to 20X. So VW is maybe 2X higher than is typical? What I find telling is that VW has not slipped in a fix over the last 6 or 7 years. Why not? But then again VW always takes their time rolling out new engine tech. Do they already have a fix that they had slated for future release? I suppose they could use the same tech MB uses, urea injection... It is not a given that performance will drop. MPG maybe. In my neck of the woods, Boston, Cambridge, Somerville, these cars are very popular so I have followed and walked next to many of them. They are very quiet and clean to the ears and nose. Dramatically so compared to pickup trucks, delivery trucks, MBTA buses, etc... which are also everywhere and spew smoke and soot like 19th century coal fired power plants.
1
If I owned a Volkswagen I would be very happy if they compensated me for repairs every time my car flunked inspection, fixed the emissions software if they could, and gave me a fair supplement to compensate for the diminished resale or trade in value.
All of the above until the car dies a natural death.
Please note they turned to the Porsche division to save their butt. I sure love mine.
All of the above until the car dies a natural death.
Please note they turned to the Porsche division to save their butt. I sure love mine.
What should the compensation be for those of us who unwittingly breathed the befouled air?
13
You know perfectly well there will be no compensation for being forced to breath polluted air. If such compensation were possible, coal-fired electricity plants would all be cleaned up.
I'm all for VW buying back my car and paying a fine for the damage they've done to the environment at a minimum. Sending the top leadership to jail and fining them sufficiently to get back their multi million dollar salaries and bonuses they've racked up for years while this illegal activity was being conceived and implemented, would also be nice. But we all know they will fight all this and all their money will go a never ending legal process instead of a practical solution.
Here's another option. Why couldn't VW offer to replace the TDI engines with gasoline engines that match the performance and emission standards in the market today i.e. the gas engine version of my Jetta wagon. It wouldn't make me feel better about what they've done nor would it fulfill my desire to drive a less polluting more efficient car, but it would at least leave me with a car I could sell or use without violating current emission standards. This seems much better than a substandard retrofit.
Here's another option. Why couldn't VW offer to replace the TDI engines with gasoline engines that match the performance and emission standards in the market today i.e. the gas engine version of my Jetta wagon. It wouldn't make me feel better about what they've done nor would it fulfill my desire to drive a less polluting more efficient car, but it would at least leave me with a car I could sell or use without violating current emission standards. This seems much better than a substandard retrofit.
3
I'm the owner of a 2015 Passat diesel. I LOVE the car. I would happily accept any solution that maintained performance, compensation for any loss of mileage, and a lifetime warranty (to the original owner) on all pollution control components.
3
Walking around Santa Cruz today, I was struck by how many VW cars there are in that town. Santa Cruz is an ultra left wing, environmentally friendly and socially conscious university town on the Northern California coast. These are the people that Volkswagen cheated. I counted at least 5 TDIs. VWs easily outnumbered all the domestic brands put together.
There was one house with a dead lawn and a sign saying 'Save Water.' In the driveway there was a Prius and a VW TDI station wagon. Anybody who lets their lawn die to save water is not going to be happy to find out that they are driving a gross polluter.
Then there are the smog checks. If you can't pass one every 2 years then you can't drive the car in California. Most cars that fail their smog check go to the crusher. I don't think VW would have resorted to cheating if there was any easy fix, like a software upgrade. Once the cheat software is removed, I'm doubtful that they can ever be made to pass the smog check. The engines are too far away from where they need to be. If the owners aren't unhappy now, they sure will be once they fail their smog checks.
I think the VW brand is finished in California.
There was one house with a dead lawn and a sign saying 'Save Water.' In the driveway there was a Prius and a VW TDI station wagon. Anybody who lets their lawn die to save water is not going to be happy to find out that they are driving a gross polluter.
Then there are the smog checks. If you can't pass one every 2 years then you can't drive the car in California. Most cars that fail their smog check go to the crusher. I don't think VW would have resorted to cheating if there was any easy fix, like a software upgrade. Once the cheat software is removed, I'm doubtful that they can ever be made to pass the smog check. The engines are too far away from where they need to be. If the owners aren't unhappy now, they sure will be once they fail their smog checks.
I think the VW brand is finished in California.
7
Re:, what you say on the third paragraph.
These TDIs do pass smog (barring any equipment malfunctions). You can test them as often as you like and they will pass. They won't fail as you suggest. So they are already equipped to keep exhaust gases clean.
It is how they operate between the smog checks that is the problem here. That is what needs to be fixed. They essentially must always operate as they do during a smog check.
These TDIs do pass smog (barring any equipment malfunctions). You can test them as often as you like and they will pass. They won't fail as you suggest. So they are already equipped to keep exhaust gases clean.
It is how they operate between the smog checks that is the problem here. That is what needs to be fixed. They essentially must always operate as they do during a smog check.
Those who bought the cars got better performance than they paid for - they were not actually injured. It is everyone else who was injured by the excess pollutants, and also Volkswagen's competitors, if they didn't also fake the emissions test. Going through an elaborate and expensive procedure to reimburse the buyers is further wasting resources. Probably the money from fines would be best spent on better testing and enforcement.
13
If the buyers of the VW diesel are really friends of the environment, they will not demand compensation for themselves, but support more constructive use of the money from fines.
11
Owners are owed a fix that sets the cars permanently in such a way that they pass tests. This should not be difficult as they obviously can pass tests already when necessary.
4
Buyers wanted a clean car with excellent economy and performance. They only got the economy and performance end of the deal. IF the software fix is performed to make the car perform on the road as it did in the lab, they will get the clean car, and lose the economy and performance. Again losing half the deal.
Perhaps you find it incomprehensible that anyone would buy a car because of its represented clean exhaust. But they do.
Perhaps you find it incomprehensible that anyone would buy a car because of its represented clean exhaust. But they do.
13
Not sure if VW can low ball the offer without incurring a class action suit. It may have a better chance to snatch victory from the proverbial jaw of defeat by offering a very generous credit offer with the hope that people might buy another VW with that credit
6
Just passed MA inspection with our TDi wagon the other day thanks to our on board computer. While at the dealer I checked out the e-Golf charger in the waiting room. Imagine the boost VW could give to the electric car market/charging infrastructure if they offered some sort of exchange program - TDi for E-car.
I don't care so much about the performance of the car in terms of acceleration and pep, but it would be too bad if the fuel economy suffered due to the emmissions fix. After all it's basically a squashed minivan with good mileage.
I don't care so much about the performance of the car in terms of acceleration and pep, but it would be too bad if the fuel economy suffered due to the emmissions fix. After all it's basically a squashed minivan with good mileage.
Emission down, consumption up, performance equal. Volkswagen therefore should compensate every owner by paying for the increased consumption for the life of the car.
7
Except it probably won't work out that way. It is more likely to be "consumption up, emissions down, performance down, engine longevity down and resale value down. VW owes compensation for more than reduced fuel consumption, which may be below owner experience but ironically not below the 29 city/41 highway advertised for these cars. Remapping the ECU such that the driving experience is worse than previously experienced by the owner while reducing NOx emission will harm owners who reasonably expected the cars they drove when bought were operating in compliance with the law.
Volkswagen, the Madoff Securities of automobile manufacturers.
What an absolute disgrace this is. Think of the hundreds of thousands of innocent people employed in Volkswagen/Audi and its affiliates and suppliers and dealer network who have been prejudiced and embarrassed by this fiasco.
How could Martin Winterkorn possibly claim that he has done nothing wrong? He has sailed his ship directly into the rocks, and he has sunk it. It is clear that Volkswagen was a morally rudderless organization, and the responsibility for that falls to him and his aging and clueless board of directors, who accepted his resignation "with respect". They should all be replaced and their embarrassing public display of ineptitude ended immediately, it is painful to watch.
What an absolute disgrace this is. Think of the hundreds of thousands of innocent people employed in Volkswagen/Audi and its affiliates and suppliers and dealer network who have been prejudiced and embarrassed by this fiasco.
How could Martin Winterkorn possibly claim that he has done nothing wrong? He has sailed his ship directly into the rocks, and he has sunk it. It is clear that Volkswagen was a morally rudderless organization, and the responsibility for that falls to him and his aging and clueless board of directors, who accepted his resignation "with respect". They should all be replaced and their embarrassing public display of ineptitude ended immediately, it is painful to watch.
28
I wholeheartedly agree. I also wonder why ANYONE believes that their so-called fix is not just another scam. Who among the Republicm candidates insists that we have too much regulation and businesses and corporations can police themselves? Feels hopeless.
"Think of the hundreds of thousands of innocent people employed in Volkswagen/Audi and its affiliates and suppliers and dealer network who have been prejudiced and embarrassed by this fiasco."
And some not-so-innocent people employed at VW.
And some not-so-innocent people employed at VW.
How can VW imagine that a top executive from within the company will now set things right?
Owners of the affected vehicles are in a legal limbo until the government decides how to proceed. Any individual state could refuse to renew the registrations of these cars if they are not able to pass an improved emissions test.
13
I really want my car fixed asap. I feel terrible driving this pollution machine when I thought I had a clean car. This the most we ever paid for a car and we bought it because it was clean and got good mileage.
1
The change to the vehicles is a quick download, like s/w everywhere, and is trivial. The compensation to owners is a sum for unexpected future fuel expense. To us the public the compensation is to sell new non-polluting vehicles at a proportional cost discount.
Some other possibilities, combining other ideas:
1. Buy back at KBB price before the disclosure for the owners--after all, they did get a vehicle to drive--plus a gift card in the amount of the difference between original purchase and buyback prices that owners can use for any qualified environmental donation.
2. Evaluate the performance of each model after the scam software is removed. An outside authority puts a value on any decline in mileage (quantitative) and other performance (qualitative and more difficult), and each owner is compensated. Add the environmental gift card from #1.
3. Other ideas.
None of these precludes going after those responsible criminally, but this is how it should be done. The scam is software, so there must be evidence in the software management system in use about who checked in the code that perpetrated the scam. They are in deep trouble but, as usual, they can help themselves by identifying the managers who told them to implement it. Rinse and repeat until the ladder is climbed to the executives who hatched the idea. Just putting the top management and executive board members in jail is a dumb and illegal notion.
1. Buy back at KBB price before the disclosure for the owners--after all, they did get a vehicle to drive--plus a gift card in the amount of the difference between original purchase and buyback prices that owners can use for any qualified environmental donation.
2. Evaluate the performance of each model after the scam software is removed. An outside authority puts a value on any decline in mileage (quantitative) and other performance (qualitative and more difficult), and each owner is compensated. Add the environmental gift card from #1.
3. Other ideas.
None of these precludes going after those responsible criminally, but this is how it should be done. The scam is software, so there must be evidence in the software management system in use about who checked in the code that perpetrated the scam. They are in deep trouble but, as usual, they can help themselves by identifying the managers who told them to implement it. Rinse and repeat until the ladder is climbed to the executives who hatched the idea. Just putting the top management and executive board members in jail is a dumb and illegal notion.
3
after the scam software is removed, you end up with a super polluting vehicle which is illegal in the US and therefore has no value. #2 is a non-starter.
We are talking about widespread fraud--on a global scale. To redeem itself, VW should be willing to advance cash to all "Clean" Diesel owners, who were cheated, enough money to buy a comparable new car--of any make whatsoever.
VW should not be able to low-ball the cash settlements, in any way, due to some sort of depreciation. In a normal court case, the settlements would include a provision for "pain and suffering", legal expenses and fines. Culpable executives should face personal fines, and even jail time, if so deemed.
There are, no doubt, many car owners who, based on this experience, absolutely do not want to drive, own or even ride in another VW--ever. That should be there prerogative, and VW should honor it.
http://thetruthoncommonsense.com
VW should not be able to low-ball the cash settlements, in any way, due to some sort of depreciation. In a normal court case, the settlements would include a provision for "pain and suffering", legal expenses and fines. Culpable executives should face personal fines, and even jail time, if so deemed.
There are, no doubt, many car owners who, based on this experience, absolutely do not want to drive, own or even ride in another VW--ever. That should be there prerogative, and VW should honor it.
http://thetruthoncommonsense.com
8
Someone needs to look at the entire fleet! This could be more far reaching than expected.
5
I own 2009 Jetta TDI, I love my car. I'm so upset about this scandal. I talked people and family members to purchase VW diesel, and they did. I'm an EHS professional in manufacturing industry. Nothing else to say
11
Then you bought the car for the wrong reasons. I bet you did not even ask about the NO2 emissions when you bought it. You were looking at the MPG's like the rest of us. It's ok to take their money, you don't have to fake indignation.
I don't doubt that the very competent engineers at VW could come up with an emission control system that would both clean the exhaust and allow users to maintain fuel mileage. Such a solution would undoubtedly involve using more expensive components, catalysts, and mechanisms than the system VW is using now and which they choose in order to keep costs down. However, repairing their cars utilizing some better technology that would make their buyers whole would be worth the money in re-establishing their reputation.
7
Disagree, the EGR system you refer to is insanely expensive. One part, the DPF(Diesel Particulate Filter) cost over $2000 to replace. Many owners have opted to eliminate the EGR system after it fails as it costs much less to delete the system than it does to replace. Coincidentally the MPG's and power increase by 10-15% as soon as you get rid of them. I would rather have the MPG's and power than worry about a little soot coming from my tailpipe.
Volkswagen should return the full purchase price to each person who bought the vehicle, plus interest since the date of purchase. Volkswagen should also reimburse the U.S. Governent for the $51 million in green credits they received. Then the company should be dissolved, and the perpetrators should receive jail terms of no less than ten years apiece.
8
I seriously considered the Toyota Prius prior to buying my 2011 Jetta TDi. Any of the smug Prius owners now laughing- think again. You're only kidding yourself into "green" mentality when you consider ALL of what owning a hybrid entails (such as battery disposal, etc...). This is what won me over to the Jetta. Much more room, almost equal fuel economy, fantastic performance...the list went on and on. I WAS trying to be green. I'd be fine with VW taking the car back, giving me full purchase price (plus interest and financing costs) and let me start again (with another auto maker of course). Would I buy a hybrid this time? Hardly. More like a car to match the other in my garage (Mazda 3). What I find most interesting is that the EPA didn't discover this in the first place. Doesn't that bother anyone else???
1
Aren't corporations "people'?
Then charge the VW person-corporation with criminal fraud, environmental degradation, and conspiracy to do both.
Then fine it here and in every nation where it lied and defrauded hundreds of thousands.
It takes a hundred software engineers to adjust a car's code to any change. 100 charges would be a start. End copright protection for corporatre codes. It's a safety and environmental question. VW men cheated but all mankind suffered.
Then let its representatives who were in conspiracy to defraud and despoil the environment need to face real prison time, huge fines, and public embarrassment, the way real people do.
Make the corporation offer decent amends to owners: refit, help buying a replacement, compensation for lost mileage and compensatory damages for lost power and lost resale. Plus recompense for owning a car with less power and drivability, lower mpg figures, and less resale possibilities/ Thousand for each owner, millions for help to clean air, and prison terms.
That's normal when people defraud others, and isn't SCOTUS the party that decided "corporations are people"..
. Total would be 20 to 30 billion dollars on top of huge business reversal and a terrific drop in stock, about 32 billion Euros' worth this week.
Could VW survive such costs, plus legal and advertising costs and support for dealers about to bail? As an asthmatic, I can honestly answer "Frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn?"
Then charge the VW person-corporation with criminal fraud, environmental degradation, and conspiracy to do both.
Then fine it here and in every nation where it lied and defrauded hundreds of thousands.
It takes a hundred software engineers to adjust a car's code to any change. 100 charges would be a start. End copright protection for corporatre codes. It's a safety and environmental question. VW men cheated but all mankind suffered.
Then let its representatives who were in conspiracy to defraud and despoil the environment need to face real prison time, huge fines, and public embarrassment, the way real people do.
Make the corporation offer decent amends to owners: refit, help buying a replacement, compensation for lost mileage and compensatory damages for lost power and lost resale. Plus recompense for owning a car with less power and drivability, lower mpg figures, and less resale possibilities/ Thousand for each owner, millions for help to clean air, and prison terms.
That's normal when people defraud others, and isn't SCOTUS the party that decided "corporations are people"..
. Total would be 20 to 30 billion dollars on top of huge business reversal and a terrific drop in stock, about 32 billion Euros' worth this week.
Could VW survive such costs, plus legal and advertising costs and support for dealers about to bail? As an asthmatic, I can honestly answer "Frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn?"
10
All of the people who bought TDI's and are ruing the pollution they have been spewing unwittingly - worry no more, Pope Francis and I have forgiven you all. It was an innocent mistake, and now your sins have been washed away. No drive your cars in peace, and a few miles lesser than you used to. No wasteful driving, and that goes for others too.
Now, the VW folks who knew this cheating was going on - as Russell Peters' Dad would put it - "Somebody is gonna get a hurt. Somebody." These folks need to be named, shamed, tried and imprisoned, the company fined and made to apologize to all the people it has deceived.
Just to put things in perspective - these cars pollute more than we thought, but it is not like they are spewing monsters or anything. So let us keep our clothes all un-knotted and plain. The real crime is the brazen cheating - if they will cheat on this, they will cheat on other things too. They need to be taught a lesson. There is too much lying going on and we need to put an end to the most egregious lies pronto.
Blessings and peace to all. All those kids being driven to soccer practice - take a day off Dad and Mom and ask the kids if they are really happy with the overscheduling BS or if there is a better way to experience life as you grow up. (Hint: there is. Stop following the crowd.)
Now, the VW folks who knew this cheating was going on - as Russell Peters' Dad would put it - "Somebody is gonna get a hurt. Somebody." These folks need to be named, shamed, tried and imprisoned, the company fined and made to apologize to all the people it has deceived.
Just to put things in perspective - these cars pollute more than we thought, but it is not like they are spewing monsters or anything. So let us keep our clothes all un-knotted and plain. The real crime is the brazen cheating - if they will cheat on this, they will cheat on other things too. They need to be taught a lesson. There is too much lying going on and we need to put an end to the most egregious lies pronto.
Blessings and peace to all. All those kids being driven to soccer practice - take a day off Dad and Mom and ask the kids if they are really happy with the overscheduling BS or if there is a better way to experience life as you grow up. (Hint: there is. Stop following the crowd.)
9
I always thought that VWs were nothing more than the cheap, unreliable Chevrolets of Europe. These cars are sold in mass quantities and, with the exception of the GTI, are nothing more than econo-boxes. Just because something is made in Europe does not automatically make it "fashionable' and "cool".
If the buyers who bought these things did not know that, they are ill-informed. VW should install NEW emission control systems and ECUs for the owners of their diesel vehicles and update their Moroney stickers. Screw the $1000.
NOTE: Has anyone tested the emissions of diesels from BMW and Mercedes-Benz?
If the buyers who bought these things did not know that, they are ill-informed. VW should install NEW emission control systems and ECUs for the owners of their diesel vehicles and update their Moroney stickers. Screw the $1000.
NOTE: Has anyone tested the emissions of diesels from BMW and Mercedes-Benz?
5
VW is mass-market, but even like Chevrolet, neither VW nor GM make your father's Volkswagen or Chevy. VW makes luxury vehicles, the Touareg and Phaeton, that are worthy contenders in the luxury class. Chevrolet makes now several excellent cars, particularly the Impala and Malibu which are class leaders. Both companies, this scandal notwithstanding, have departed from their old reputations as low-quality budget producers.
The Engineer in question, German, did indeed test also a BMW X5 which did not have the issue. Furthermore, the violation seems to be related to US and espescially CARB standards, so a rather limited set of cars that likely can be fixed with a sidtware upgrade. Adly the environment will not be able to sue just the bunch of greedy people and attorneys.
First and foremost it is every man, woman and child on each that has suffered from this crime. If anyone should be compensated it is Mother Earth. Calculate how much additional pollution has been added to the atmosphere and make VW offset it. The cars in circulation must be fixed to prevent additional pollution. Buying back millions of car is most definitely not going to fix the problem just the opposite as producing the million replacement cars will have an even bigger green house effect.
14
Buying back the cars compensates the owners who bought the cars at a price premium precisely because the engines had a reputation for spirited performance, durability, fuel economy and good resale value. The compliance of the engine on emissions standards was expected, just as compliance with crash protection regulations was expected.
Buying back the cars is a solution for some of the affected owners, particularly those whose cars cannot be modified to regulatory standards and for those for which modification is not economically justifiable, or for which the modifications sufficiently change the car's driving characteristics that the owner no longer wants the car.
Buying back the cars is a solution for some of the affected owners, particularly those whose cars cannot be modified to regulatory standards and for those for which modification is not economically justifiable, or for which the modifications sufficiently change the car's driving characteristics that the owner no longer wants the car.
Yep, and owners who spent premium in the amount of thousands of dollars to purchase a car remarkably different than the one marketed should just suck it up, right? We were lied to at time of purchase, and most made the decision to buy based on not only clean emissions, but on mileage and performance. It's been stated clearly that the fix will result in reduced mileage and performance. Had that been known at time of purchase, most would not have bought these cars, and now we have cars that will have far less resale value, more expensive to keep fueled, and essentially clunkers. So, damn right buyers need to compensated.
How is your solution fair to the owner who never would have purchased a car with the performance, mileage of the "fixed" vehicle?
Many years ago, I read a column in Car and Driver magazine about an innovative way to reduce pollution in the most cost-effective way. The author proposed a roving emissions inspection unit that could pull over vehicles that had that distinctive smell of heavy polluters. When these vehicles were pulled over and a roadside emissions test confirmed the diagnosis, the offending vehicle would be impounded and eventually scrapped. When the vehicle was impounded, the driver would be handed the keys to a brand new Cadillac, free and clear. The author's point was that the way to solve the pollution problem was to get the heavy polluters off the road.
I suggest a variation on this scenario. VW has a lot of unhappy owners on its hands. The owners have cars which pollute more than they should, and when fixed, will probably get less power and worse mileage than they should. However, these cars are fairly new and probably pollute a lot less than a lot of older cars on the road. VW could buy these cars back from their current owners, fix their emissions, then give these cars away to owners of older cars. For example, a registered owner of a 15 year old car as of 9-1-2015 could go to a VW dealership, drop off their old car, and drive out with a slightly used VW diesel. "VW Diesels for Clunkers" would solve VW's problems with its owners, generate a ton of good will, and would have a huge positive impact on the environment.
I suggest a variation on this scenario. VW has a lot of unhappy owners on its hands. The owners have cars which pollute more than they should, and when fixed, will probably get less power and worse mileage than they should. However, these cars are fairly new and probably pollute a lot less than a lot of older cars on the road. VW could buy these cars back from their current owners, fix their emissions, then give these cars away to owners of older cars. For example, a registered owner of a 15 year old car as of 9-1-2015 could go to a VW dealership, drop off their old car, and drive out with a slightly used VW diesel. "VW Diesels for Clunkers" would solve VW's problems with its owners, generate a ton of good will, and would have a huge positive impact on the environment.
54
Great idea. Let's reward people who drive filthy cars by giving them big gas-guzzlers. I can't think of any better way to expand corporate welfare and reward bad behavior at the same time.
1
The old diesel cars are not the ones in question as they do not have the complex emissions control.
Nice try though to squeeze some personal benefit out if VW while not actually having been harmed. In its face, though why not force tge ild diesel owners to upgrade??? Uhh, it would be unfair, except if you find someone else to pay for???
Nice try though to squeeze some personal benefit out if VW while not actually having been harmed. In its face, though why not force tge ild diesel owners to upgrade??? Uhh, it would be unfair, except if you find someone else to pay for???
A new Cadillac? Doesn't that violate the proscription on "cruel and unusual punishment"?
Amazing to me, the vitriol for VW here, where GM gets away with literally bloody murder 124 times over and pays a relatively small fine and no GM employee is being criminally charged. Not a one. It's almost as if VW's coldly precise engineering of the software deception raises more ire than GM's sloppy engineering, unwillingness to spend a couple bucks on a fix, and years of denial--while the bodies piled up.
Of course what VW has done is wrong, but as companies go, I'd say GM--and Toyota, for that matter--have violated the "don't be evil" admonition far more grievously. If VW's to hang, those companies certainly should as well.
Of course what VW has done is wrong, but as companies go, I'd say GM--and Toyota, for that matter--have violated the "don't be evil" admonition far more grievously. If VW's to hang, those companies certainly should as well.
75
Yes, this "Outrage" here is nothing short of Amazing & almost Laughable. As if those Numbers hanging on Every Car Sticker sold Everywhere on the Planet were not a Joke.
This, being the New York Times, maybe more than a few Writers here can claim they have no Car. But the the large Number of "Shocked & Outraged" & outraged comments here is almost Funny. The majority writing here Have Cars & Drive Cars. And because of this, are destroying our Planet.
It is Billions upon Billions of People (More all the time) & Millions & Millions (Perhaps Billions?) of Cars being Driven and Produced that are destroying our Planet. Not this Phony Outrage over a Tiny Percentage of Cars with Dishonest Software. They are all Dishonest and we are ALL a part of the Problem. Hell, We ARE the Problem.
This, being the New York Times, maybe more than a few Writers here can claim they have no Car. But the the large Number of "Shocked & Outraged" & outraged comments here is almost Funny. The majority writing here Have Cars & Drive Cars. And because of this, are destroying our Planet.
It is Billions upon Billions of People (More all the time) & Millions & Millions (Perhaps Billions?) of Cars being Driven and Produced that are destroying our Planet. Not this Phony Outrage over a Tiny Percentage of Cars with Dishonest Software. They are all Dishonest and we are ALL a part of the Problem. Hell, We ARE the Problem.
Finally a voice of reason. Nobody mentions that GM's diesel trucks are exempted from much of the restrictions that the small diesels must adhere to. If the playing field were level there would be nothing to see here. Next time you are sitting at a red light and you see that diesel truck take off in a cloud of soot and the TDI next to it leave no trail think about it.
Like VW, GM had problems however I feel it is more of a legal ambulance chasing problem that people 124 people could not deal with an simple engine failures? The driving test should include these problems even if just a day in the classroom.
VW should stop producing diesels altogether.
There is no such thing as clean diesel and when the news comes out that aftermarket electronic aftermarket devices are being sold ($50) and used to bypass the urea NOx systems, diesel should be, and will be dead.
There is no such thing as clean diesel and when the news comes out that aftermarket electronic aftermarket devices are being sold ($50) and used to bypass the urea NOx systems, diesel should be, and will be dead.
1
I agree! We should follow the American example and produce cars which use 30 liter per 100km distance. It makes sense . . . . . What about air pollution by your trucks? Ships? Air pollution by fracking? Your factories have filter technologies based in the 60`s! The USA are with China primarily responsible for the air pollution in the world . . . . .
Please let's hold off on the assumption that these vehicles are dirtier than any somewhat normal-range mpg vehicle on the road. At least let's wait until we have all the facts.
As a VW owner this is a great fear I have - that there is a misconception and even a sort of abuse of the limited information out there.
Yes, in some stage (or stages) of engine use there is a gross and reckless amount of pollution contributed that none of us want. But these are Diesel Injection vehicles, or at least mine is. I drive with my car in this injection mode at MOST 0.5% of the time. For others it may be more, but probably never much above 5% of the time. If my Jetta is 40 or even 100 times dirtier than other emissions passing vehicles for only 0.5% of the time I drive, this does not necessarily mean that it is dirtier overall. To make any assertion of the overall impact these vehicles have to the environment we need to first understand their emissions profile over the entire range of engine use - not just the worst case which I believe is most likely to be rare if not extremely rare.
I also purchased thinking it was among the cleanest on the road. I'm also pretty upset and want compensation, but let's not forget that these are efficient vehicles. Only so much fuel mass can be converted into bad air.
As a VW owner this is a great fear I have - that there is a misconception and even a sort of abuse of the limited information out there.
Yes, in some stage (or stages) of engine use there is a gross and reckless amount of pollution contributed that none of us want. But these are Diesel Injection vehicles, or at least mine is. I drive with my car in this injection mode at MOST 0.5% of the time. For others it may be more, but probably never much above 5% of the time. If my Jetta is 40 or even 100 times dirtier than other emissions passing vehicles for only 0.5% of the time I drive, this does not necessarily mean that it is dirtier overall. To make any assertion of the overall impact these vehicles have to the environment we need to first understand their emissions profile over the entire range of engine use - not just the worst case which I believe is most likely to be rare if not extremely rare.
I also purchased thinking it was among the cleanest on the road. I'm also pretty upset and want compensation, but let's not forget that these are efficient vehicles. Only so much fuel mass can be converted into bad air.
3
The more efficient the diesel engine, the more polluting it is. Treating combustion emissions requires some form of energy and in the case of diesel it also requires some substance to work as a catalyst.
The energy needed has to come from somewhere. The easiest energy source in this case comes from using some of the fuel you have.
The same holds true for gasoline engines. There are different chemical reactions taking place because the fuels and the byproducts if combustion are different but the fuel is the easiest energy source to use.
The energy needed has to come from somewhere. The easiest energy source in this case comes from using some of the fuel you have.
The same holds true for gasoline engines. There are different chemical reactions taking place because the fuels and the byproducts if combustion are different but the fuel is the easiest energy source to use.
1
Diesel has never been "clean".
PS: I also own one of the pre-defeat device TDI's, a Golf, and its performance and mileage are excellent. Plenty of power and 50 mpg every tankful.
1
The company sold cars that do not perform as advertised, and cannot be legally repaired to perform as advertised. Thus they meet the technical definition of a "lemon" and will be bought back at the purchase price.
6
I agree.
i bought a 2015 Golf Sportwagen. It seemed like a pretty good car and I have enjoyed driving it as much as my Aston Martin. I think VW should give me a new Aston Martin. At least with that car there's no pretense of saving the environment.
2
To deliberately conspire to install devices in their diesel cars, and possibly their trucks, and gasoline vehicles, that were designed to hide the dangerous truth about their vehicles, means that VW has been engaged in criminal activity that resulted in physical harm to possibly millions of people, and has likely contributed to the death of many as well.
In most nations where rule of law is a standard, the punishment for such actions is to jail these criminals, throw away the keys, disburse the corporate assets to the aggrieved, and make absolutely sure they never again have an opportunity to manufacture one spark plug, or glow point.
Watch how quickly manufacturers become law abiding.
Could change the current avaricious corporate activity.
In most nations where rule of law is a standard, the punishment for such actions is to jail these criminals, throw away the keys, disburse the corporate assets to the aggrieved, and make absolutely sure they never again have an opportunity to manufacture one spark plug, or glow point.
Watch how quickly manufacturers become law abiding.
Could change the current avaricious corporate activity.
4
VW could just re-set the emission cleaner to always-on. The drop in performance can't be so drastic as to make the car really bad. The problem came from VW trying to satisfy consumer's preoccupation with "performance". I drive a Yeti with the engine in question, and it's acceleration is way stronger than I'll ever need. And with a 10% increase in diesel consumption I would still feel like driving a fantastic car. For those who just can't live with the reduced acceleration, VW could pay for a few sessions with their shrink.
2
The cost of a buyback is not the cost of buying the cars. They can be modified to meet the correct standards and then resold, offsetting part of the cost. At the moment VW will have a team of lawyers, accountants and marketing people trying to work out what is cheapest but makes them look good, or at least not as bad. The aim also will be to have as many customers as possible sign agreements so there is no uncertainty about future costs.
2
Business people. Business schools, Punk Capitalism is what I call their world.
5
Individual drivers were not particularly damaged -- the environment, and so, all of us, were. Volkswagen should contribute mightily, massively, to environmental cleanup and global warming control efforts.
6
The individual drivers still have their cars, but have lost equity due to the disrepute and eventually due to the "fix" which, where possible, will reduce emissions at the expense of reduced fuel economy, increased repair costs from accelerated engine parts wear and reduced driving performance, less horsepower and torque than the cars were specified as having when sold.
Individual owners were harmed - financially. Buyers were sold a product remarkably different than the one VW marketed them at time of sale. Buyers paid a premium for these vehicles, and decisions were based on performance, mileage and clean emission statements. Now, these cars resale values will plummet, as will their performance and mileage. Nothing short of a buyback program will appease owners affected.
I have a 2009 Jetta Sportswagon TDI I bought this car because of the mileage the reputation of being durable I was told it was a green car, that was like icing on an a cake We have had to change the fuel filter once and replace or clean a inline screen 4 times because the engine light kept coming on. Just a month ago the engine light came on again so this time they replace the catalytic converter If or when they fix this problem it's going to cut my mileage a lot and cut the life expectancy of the engine I would not have brought the car if I knew the truth I have been lied to and taken advantage of I should not be the one left holding the purse I have an albatross sitting in my garage I no longer want this vehicle but I'm stuck with it
2
This is why most auto mechanics don't drive Volkswagens.
If this is about clean diesel, why haven't we heard anything from EPA regarding standards for big trucks plying on US roads? And have they anything about the emissions from the monstrous sea tankers on US shores. Do they emit less pollutants?
Has there not been a lapse of stringent testing from agencies side? Or is it bent on driving a car company to bankruptcy?
Has there not been a lapse of stringent testing from agencies side? Or is it bent on driving a car company to bankruptcy?
5
EPA was nort the one to figure this out, neither did the SEC figure Bernie Madoff or the NTSB GMs keygate. They dont have the brains just the attorneys to collect money for the government.
I think it's actually fairly straightforward. Since acceleration/performance is not a quantifiable amount, they should keep performance the same and decrease gas mileage. Then they should:
1. Compensate owners based on the total expected extra cost of fuel over the lifetime of the vehicle
2. Compensate owners based on an estimate of the decrease in value due to this mpg change
3. Buy NOx credits on the market to offset the additional emissions
4. Agree to meet a higher fleet wide mpg target for a limited time in order to offset the reduced mpg of their current vehicles
That would offset the damage done. Then the EPA should assess an additional fine as a deterrent against future similar behavior.
1. Compensate owners based on the total expected extra cost of fuel over the lifetime of the vehicle
2. Compensate owners based on an estimate of the decrease in value due to this mpg change
3. Buy NOx credits on the market to offset the additional emissions
4. Agree to meet a higher fleet wide mpg target for a limited time in order to offset the reduced mpg of their current vehicles
That would offset the damage done. Then the EPA should assess an additional fine as a deterrent against future similar behavior.
4
You should contact VW buying Nox offset credits will be their best and cheapest alternative if they can sell it to the Deptnof Transportation and the public. Good luck
There are no NOx credits to be bought available, fleet mog is already higher than average ( they dont sell gas guzzlers), the reduction in mpg is hypthetical. What if the siftware upgrade would give higher mpg? Will buyers pay up for the fix??
Whatever VW choses to do, they will craft their response to this fiasco in such a way as to reduce as much as possible the hit their reputation has taken. This is a HUGE PR problem for VW that has the potential to taint there reputation and thereby reduce future sales for a long time. Whether they focus on ameliorating the feelings of owners or environmentalists, they will ultimate have to do both to have ANY chance of success.
Who would have thought that a German company with a vaunted reputation would be the one found to fundamentally cheat its customers and the US government. What is the world coming to?
Who would have thought that a German company with a vaunted reputation would be the one found to fundamentally cheat its customers and the US government. What is the world coming to?
5
The reality is that the US market is not as important to VW as its actual reputation here is. VW does not sell as many cars here to make a dent. The VW lovers tent to ve charmed by cars there were sold many years ago and dint pass current standards anyway, and aren't diesel either.
Not sure why VW owes the drivers anything but the recalls to fix emission problems. Emissions issues are between VW and the governments in the various countries. You can't compensate people for outrage or loss of environmental idealism which seems to be the main issue here. There's no evidence any drivers were physically harmed by their car's emissions, and the cars are safe to drive. If you want to be environmentally friendly, don't drive a car at all. Walk, ride a bicycle, live in a city where you don't need a car, take public transit, don't fly, use a gas lawn mower or gas grill (or a gas stove in your house - they produce NOx too). Every modern convenience comes with an environmental price tag. There is no free energy and no clean energy anywhere - a polluting industrial process is used to generate electricity, to make and dispose of batteries, and in the manufacture of solar panels, vehicles, and fuels. There are lots of tradeoffs in this world.
26
Don't you get that these cars have a permanent scarlet letter on them, P For polluter ? That those who bought them have lost thousands in re-sale value?
Ask owners of Audi 5000's vintage 1985 about re-sale value after the un-intended acceleration imbroglio. Audi sales collapsed, from 74k units in 1984 to 12k by 1991. Perception matters in business.
Ask owners of Audi 5000's vintage 1985 about re-sale value after the un-intended acceleration imbroglio. Audi sales collapsed, from 74k units in 1984 to 12k by 1991. Perception matters in business.
So fraud is totally OK as long as the buyer isn't directly harmed any more than others? The buyer was deprived of an informed choice when he or she bought the vehicle, and bought it under false pretenses. Why shouldn't such buyers be able to reverse the sale?
It is called, "Tort". It is not acceptable in a civilized society.
I am an owner of one of these offending vehicles. The resale value as is currently virtually nil with unknown prospects for the future. Here is what would be a fair resolution:
1) Give the cars already sold a lifetime waiver of NOx emissions requirements (transferable for the life of the car) & have VW pay extra fines to compensate for the additional pollution;
2) Give the owners the option to trade into a new gas-powered version of their model of car;
3) Give the owners the option to sell the cars to VW for their blue book value the day before the fit hit the shan, with an additional amount for the inconvenience.
So, the owner can 1) keep the car in the same condition, 2) trade-in the car to the closest equivalent, or 3) get the FMV of the car in $$. That would be fair, however, a full refund of the price paid would go a long way to restoring faith and trust in the brand, technology and marketing.
1) Give the cars already sold a lifetime waiver of NOx emissions requirements (transferable for the life of the car) & have VW pay extra fines to compensate for the additional pollution;
2) Give the owners the option to trade into a new gas-powered version of their model of car;
3) Give the owners the option to sell the cars to VW for their blue book value the day before the fit hit the shan, with an additional amount for the inconvenience.
So, the owner can 1) keep the car in the same condition, 2) trade-in the car to the closest equivalent, or 3) get the FMV of the car in $$. That would be fair, however, a full refund of the price paid would go a long way to restoring faith and trust in the brand, technology and marketing.
4
"The resale value as is currently virtually nil"
I expect that a lot of people will want to buy an unmodified VW diesel to enjoy the performance and economy that would be lost after they are "fixed"
I expect that a lot of people will want to buy an unmodified VW diesel to enjoy the performance and economy that would be lost after they are "fixed"
If you really think your late model VW's resale value is virtually nil, I'll give you a hundred bucks for it today. Hey, that's a hundred dollars more than it's worth, so a good deal for you. Sound good?
In other words: get serious.
In other words: get serious.
They could produce enough diesel-electric hybrid cars (120 mpg) to offset the pollution created by the 'defeat device' cars...as well as fixing the existing cars so they don't continue to exceed emissions limits. I own one of the affected cars and I'd be OK with this plan. They'd lose money on the diesel electric hybrids, but they'd have brought it on themselves.
5
Who would have thought that I was rolling coal in my little hatchback with NPR stickers? I thought I was a liberal stereotype, when actually I may have been polluting more than the drivers of those modified pickups that pollute on purpose to make a libertarian point.
I've been such a brand loyalist for years. I was so excited to "trade up" my base model Golf for the TDI. I'm so brainwashed into loving these cars-- if they were to offer to trade me a gas VW for my TDI, I would want to accept it.
I would want to, but as a matter of principle, I should not.
Until there is a solution put forth by VW, I can only drive my car every day, 42 miles to work each way, polluting and wondering what can be done.
I've been such a brand loyalist for years. I was so excited to "trade up" my base model Golf for the TDI. I'm so brainwashed into loving these cars-- if they were to offer to trade me a gas VW for my TDI, I would want to accept it.
I would want to, but as a matter of principle, I should not.
Until there is a solution put forth by VW, I can only drive my car every day, 42 miles to work each way, polluting and wondering what can be done.
1
I have not seen my friend Steve since this VW mess has started. Steve was in the market for a new car last year and mentioned the VW diesels. I advised him not to get a VW diesel. I told him about the dodgy engineering that VW has used over the years with their diesels. They used to have urea injection, which I considered old tech and that the company had not introduced any new tech in their diesel engines despite dropping urea injection. I read about the tech and there was nothing to tell me that VW had done anything new and great under the hood.
I mentioned to him to wait for Mazda to introduce their diesel. Mazda has a great diesel motor that is sold worldwide, not here though. Mazda has none of the issues and problems that VW has encountered. The now widespread turning against diesel motors is overblown and lacks any kind of rational thinking. Diesels are a viable, acceptable motor for our modern transportation needs. After all, no one is talking about getting rid of other diesel vehicles, like the millions of big trucks driving around our country. What is the difference between a VW and a Peterbilt?
I'm not surprised. Most people are sheep. Most people don't think for themselves. For example, I am listening to "All Things Concerned" on NPR. I know how some people are misled about these issues. ATC is a source for sensational and misleading information. Time to go change the station.
I look forward to get together with Steve so I can tell him "I told you so!"
I mentioned to him to wait for Mazda to introduce their diesel. Mazda has a great diesel motor that is sold worldwide, not here though. Mazda has none of the issues and problems that VW has encountered. The now widespread turning against diesel motors is overblown and lacks any kind of rational thinking. Diesels are a viable, acceptable motor for our modern transportation needs. After all, no one is talking about getting rid of other diesel vehicles, like the millions of big trucks driving around our country. What is the difference between a VW and a Peterbilt?
I'm not surprised. Most people are sheep. Most people don't think for themselves. For example, I am listening to "All Things Concerned" on NPR. I know how some people are misled about these issues. ATC is a source for sensational and misleading information. Time to go change the station.
I look forward to get together with Steve so I can tell him "I told you so!"
1
Take all media with a grain(shaker) of salt, but I think ATC is a good deal better than el rushmoe. Lol.
It's "All Things Considered." But please listen a little more ....
Determining lost value will include lost reputation. If people find it uncomfortable to buy my car due to the bad rap then that is lost value. The actual lost value due to increased fuel consumption must also be included. Then of course the harm created by having my reputation sullied; and I am embarrassed. Don't know what that equals, but I'm hoping it allows me to buy that used Tacoma.
1
If you sell your car at what is understood to be a diminished value because of the decreased fuel mileage, engine durability and performance, the loss ends with your transfer of ownership. The new owner has no similar claim. Any reduced expectations of economy and performance were compensated in the lower price. So only the current owners have a claim.
Time is of the essence. My New York-registered TDI is due for inspection beginning in 6 days. What happens when I show up at the inspection station and am turned down due to this situation brought about by the action of VW. How many tickets will I receive and court appearances must I make before the matter is resolved? While we ponder the long term, there is collateral damage requiring to be urgently addressed in the short term.
John Reynolds
2011 VW Jetta TDI
John Reynolds
2011 VW Jetta TDI
7
Until VW responds your car will be inspected and pass, because at test time the car does bot produce excessive NOX.
The EPA, CARB and everyone else is working with VW to make sure their response will allow owners to meet emissions when they DRIVE as well. It is not your problem (yet).
The EPA, CARB and everyone else is working with VW to make sure their response will allow owners to meet emissions when they DRIVE as well. It is not your problem (yet).
It's been mentioned before, but this type of behavior won't be stopped by financial penalties alone. Jail time is the only disincentive that will work. Find the parties that signed off on the disabling of the pollution controls, and give them all several years behind bars. History is littered with business decisions that seem inconceivable to most, but greed is always at the top of the list that motivates actions that have truly dire consequences.
2
The law views damages here differently. We have two claims that sound in the law, breach of contract and the tort of fraud. For breach of contract the law provides damages for VW's failure to perform its promise, i.e., sale a diesel car that emits pollutants of only a certain amount, while getting a certain level of performance and fuel economy. That promise has value the question is how do you access that value.
The standard of damages in tort is to make the victim whole to the extent that money damages can. But what's the injury here? It is not getting the reduced pollution, though drivers actually got a premium in performance and fuel economy, which benefit must be deducted from their claims for damages.
Finally for damages, to the extent that damage at law under the contract aren't adequate, equity provides recovery for reliance or restitution damages, that is, which is essentially recovery for the sale price of the car. But I think that those won't be available, because the damages for breach or tort of fraud, not both because you have to choose, are adequate.
First, VW technology works: Once the cheating software is removed the affected VWs do obtain the promised emissions, but they get less mileage and performance. To compensate for that, I think that pre and post differential in resale value will capture nearly all of an owner's damages, perhaps with an additional payment for performance and worse fuel economy.
The wild card is the government.
The standard of damages in tort is to make the victim whole to the extent that money damages can. But what's the injury here? It is not getting the reduced pollution, though drivers actually got a premium in performance and fuel economy, which benefit must be deducted from their claims for damages.
Finally for damages, to the extent that damage at law under the contract aren't adequate, equity provides recovery for reliance or restitution damages, that is, which is essentially recovery for the sale price of the car. But I think that those won't be available, because the damages for breach or tort of fraud, not both because you have to choose, are adequate.
First, VW technology works: Once the cheating software is removed the affected VWs do obtain the promised emissions, but they get less mileage and performance. To compensate for that, I think that pre and post differential in resale value will capture nearly all of an owner's damages, perhaps with an additional payment for performance and worse fuel economy.
The wild card is the government.
1
The facts have gotten worse for VW as the story has developed, which make punitive damages more likely, which I didn't discuss, supra, for want of space. But we now are getting the reason for VW's worldwide fraud with its diesels: It seems that VW didn't want to use a much surer method for reducing emission, that using Urea, a fluid, which is very cheap and which a driver only had to replenish every few months. VW and Mercedes developed Blue-Tech clean diesel together, but, while Mercedes used Urea to effectively reduce emissions of nitrogen oxide, VW tried to develop another technology, which, not to put to fine a point on it, didn't work. So VW choose the expediency of fraud to do what its engineers couldn't do.
This type of fraudulent and outrageous conduct can be the basis for the rare and punitive sanction of what are known as exemplary, or punitive, damages, where the finder of facts imposes a much greater award of damages than is sufficient to compensate the victim for his injuries, going beyond that set a punishment which will deter future bad conduct of the type proved.
Another aspect of damages, that of polluting the environment, is not a claim of right for an individual car owner beyond breach of contract and fraud, supra, for that claim of injuring the environment, belongs to the government, unless a car owner can show that his particular health or other injury from VW's diesel pollution is distinct and unique from that suffered by general public.
This type of fraudulent and outrageous conduct can be the basis for the rare and punitive sanction of what are known as exemplary, or punitive, damages, where the finder of facts imposes a much greater award of damages than is sufficient to compensate the victim for his injuries, going beyond that set a punishment which will deter future bad conduct of the type proved.
Another aspect of damages, that of polluting the environment, is not a claim of right for an individual car owner beyond breach of contract and fraud, supra, for that claim of injuring the environment, belongs to the government, unless a car owner can show that his particular health or other injury from VW's diesel pollution is distinct and unique from that suffered by general public.
What of those who had no plans to re-sell their vehicle? Who generally keep a car for 10 or more years, and drive it until it has reached the end of its fixable life?
To make that driver whole, VW would have to not only eliminate the pollution problem but also maintain performance and economy at the level it achieves now and achieved when the vehicle was marketed and sold.
To make that driver whole, VW would have to not only eliminate the pollution problem but also maintain performance and economy at the level it achieves now and achieved when the vehicle was marketed and sold.
There had to be many dozens of VW staff involved in the decision to pursue this fraud, and the details of the implementation -- its integration into the overall design of the engine -- required scores of hours of conferences among these many dozens of people. Is it conceivable that no one asked "... and suppose we get caught, then what?". What answers could possibly have been given?
We can hope that the company's emails are seized before they are erased.
We can hope that the company's emails are seized before they are erased.
2
asked and answered , if they get caught nothing happens. If they anticipated hard time in a maximum security prison, it wouldn't have happened. One of the great advantages in managing white collar crime- a few months in the general population of a maximum security prison would scare them straight.
This post is dedicated to the several here advocating against refunds or in favor or lowball refunds from VW to affected owners. And so this is the short-end story of how I came to own my 2013 Golf TDI: After a split up from which I walked away with nothing (read, nothing), I needed a car to transport me to/from my meager paying job. At that time VW was offering close to 0% financing. Because my credit rating was good VW Credit approved the loan with 0 down for 66 months. I would have liked to put a down payment but I had zilch so financed the car 100%. I am now 2 years into my 5.5 years loan. And my monthly payments represent 13% of my monthly net income. This is how strapped I feel/am. What else is left is for rent and food. That's as far as I can stretch my income. It's dire. Some of you may argue why didn't I buy a less expensive car. This is where VW's advertised deception/fraud kicks in: clean diesel, fuel economy, and performance. Plus un-advertised strong historical resale value for these diesel vehicles. What could go wrong? Did I have any reason to suspect corporate fraud? No! And so now I am stuck with a known pollutant with plummeted resale value. Also stuck financially and at the mercy of whatever outcome ensues from this mess. Some will argue, it's only a car. Well, not for me since I lack the ability to fiscally make any moves. So yes, I am irate with VW for their deliberate fraud/deception and for feeling taken advantage of. $25k is not pocket change to me.
38
So your instance on buying a new car and financing what was certain to be a depreciating asset is the grounds for sticking it to VW. I don't agree. However you should look at this as a gift, as your argument that VW sold you an asset under false pretenses is likely valid and should take back the car- you don't actually own- and vacate your loan obligations.
Most actually financially strapped folks ask a mechanic what to buy and end up with a 3,000 dollar honda/gm. 25,000 is twice a lot of folks incomes, who know better than to stick their necks out for a car. Reality is rough for non-50k folks.
Your economic thinking is faulty. Buying a new car makes economic sense only if you keep the car long enough to drive it back into the dirt it came from. Even then you'd do better buying a used car and doing the same thing. Depreciation is the largest cost of vehicle ownership, and the greatest depreciation hit is incurred by the person who buys it new.
Buying back the cars is not much of a solution because these owners will turn around and buy a new car. Think of all of the embodied energy in these cars, and the natural resources it is going to require to build new ones.
So: 1) VW needs to make it worth owners' while to drive cars with diminished performance and higher fuel costs; 2) pay some sort of compensatory and punitive damages for having deceived their customers and regulatory authorities; and 3) invest massively in carbon and other pollution offsets to make good their hitherto non-disclosed pollution.
So: 1) VW needs to make it worth owners' while to drive cars with diminished performance and higher fuel costs; 2) pay some sort of compensatory and punitive damages for having deceived their customers and regulatory authorities; and 3) invest massively in carbon and other pollution offsets to make good their hitherto non-disclosed pollution.
12
I vaguely recall an episode of Seinfeld where George Castanza's mom said she wouldn't ride in a German car.
All those years I thought she was insane.
Maybe she was on to something after all.
All those years I thought she was insane.
Maybe she was on to something after all.
5
Well I would recommend her to buy a car from Mazda. The plant is based on Hiroshima . . . . .
The Kelly Blue Book value just before the deception was revealed? That doesn't seem appropriate, because the KBB value assumes a willing seller as well as a ready supply of buyers any of whom may know of or suspect hidden problems with the car. In many instances, an older car is worth much more to its owner than its putative assessed value, as every month in a paid-for vehicle is a month with no auto loan payment, regardless of efficiency. And if one has been lucky enough to have purchased a really good car (i.e., no expenses other than scheduled maintenance), then so much the better.
1
Not quite. The KBB market value is a fair approximation of what it would cost to replace the car with another vehicle of similar age, condition and equipment. Whether one enjoys driving the replacement free of a loan note is beside the point. You might equally conclude that every month of ownership carries a progressively increasing risk of having to spend large sums on auto repairs, a gamble only partly offset by having no car note to pay. With a transparent market--cars have plenty of consumer critics--the published resale values are a reasonable assessment of the worth of a used car, everything including reliability considered.
Regarding "how best to compensate people who chose these cars deliberately because they wanted their driving to be gentler on the planet", it is a fallacy to think a diesel car is "gentler on the planet", since diesel engines emit potentially harmful particulates.
4
Your comment makes no sense. VW marketed the diesel cars as being superior to gasoline cars in terms of fuel economy and emissions. Yes, they may still emit harmful particulates but the marketing advertised and sold the idea of a smaller ecological footprint per mile driven and they charged a premium. This turned out to be a lie and a whopper.
3
Buying back the defective cars at their current market value makes no sense. Buy them back, but at their original purchase price adjusted for inflation and with interest. Then get the bought-backs off the road permanently. Melt them down to the leg irons that Volkswagen employees and board members should be wearing.
Beyond that, there's got to be compensation for the damage to public health done by Volkswagen, and to U.S. auto dealers who sold VW products in good faith.
Finally, there must be punishment. Jail for the conspirators. And the permanent expulsion from the United States of Volkswagen.
Compensate, punish, and banish.
Beyond that, there's got to be compensation for the damage to public health done by Volkswagen, and to U.S. auto dealers who sold VW products in good faith.
Finally, there must be punishment. Jail for the conspirators. And the permanent expulsion from the United States of Volkswagen.
Compensate, punish, and banish.
9
Wrong! Most employees are also victims.
You are taking this very personally. Nobody died. It was a large scale scam on easy marks. A lot of folks were questioning how VW could get away without urea injection for their smaller diesel engines. You had to have your head in the sand to believe it was possible.
2
You have it backwards. Compensation for the damage to the public health comes first. Compensation to owners of the vehicles comes last, if at all. Assuming the software is fixed, owners have suffered no damage except the fall in value of the vehicle, which will be determined after the fix, and that may be a very small amount.
This is a crime against society in general, not against individual vehicle owners, and there should be great resistance from the public to any windfall to the owners as a result of the situation.
This is a crime against society in general, not against individual vehicle owners, and there should be great resistance from the public to any windfall to the owners as a result of the situation.
2
The generous side of things neglect a carbon tax for the emissions from cars during their criminal intent. Although this environmental damage is one thing that cannot be undone with money.
3
I wonder what the Greenpeace reaction will be to the VW penalties?
Green Peace had a campaign in 2013 to get VW to reduce their emissions...VW committed to the reductions after some pressure, but now we realize how they achieved their commitments. http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/Blogs/makingwaves/greenp...
Green Peace had a campaign in 2013 to get VW to reduce their emissions...VW committed to the reductions after some pressure, but now we realize how they achieved their commitments. http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/Blogs/makingwaves/greenp...
3
I feel ashamed driving my TDI for polluting the city. That's not what I intended when I decided to buy it...
3
You should feel ashamed.
1
Don't feel ashamed. You didn't know.
Don't buy a car to feel proud or ashamed or whatever. You can make a statement to the world about your priorities in other more meaningful ways. If you can walk or bike to some place in your city, that is always better than driving there with even the most fuel efficient car. It is currently not a very popular or cool thing to do but it is better for the environment.
Don't buy a car to feel proud or ashamed or whatever. You can make a statement to the world about your priorities in other more meaningful ways. If you can walk or bike to some place in your city, that is always better than driving there with even the most fuel efficient car. It is currently not a very popular or cool thing to do but it is better for the environment.
Actually, one thing VW can do to turn back its environmental damage is to replace cars, in say developing nations that pollute that much more, and thereby reduce the future impact of those displaced vehicle that otherwise would continue polluting.
4
How much of a carbon footprint would there be on replacing all these cars? If people are really sincere about being green, that is not the solution.
2
As a TDI owner I have a few thoughts on this. First our cars were already recalled by VW to "fix" the emissions problem over the last year. What was really done as part of that repair? Perhaps a "software fix" is not possible. Second what is the real impact of running in proper emissions mode? You can find this information (MPG, Power, Etc.) with the car on a dynamometer which is what both EPA and CARB have done as part of their testing. The results of changing the ECM is known by VW and others - but not asked for by the press or revealed to the public. If it is not realistic to do a software fix then a major retrofit with the Urea system (Blue Tec) is the only other realistic option. It isn't clear if that is either possible or economical. If there is not a technical solution then a mandatory buyback and destruction of the cars is the only option that will meet the EPA order.
16
Yes, I got an inspection alert from the car about two or three months before the announcement. When after the announcement I looked up the alert on VW's website (using my VIN), it reads like technical-ese for exactly what's at issue in this fraud case. Something is going on with this and I am curious to know what.
FWIW, my TDI was not at all recalled to "fix" an emission problem. It was "recalled" so the dealer could affix a sticker to the inside of the gas tank door that says "Diesel Fuel Only." (I have a very good dealership, and I'll miss it when I buy my next non-VW car -- the *dealer* told me that that was the only thing done to the car when I brought it in for the "fix.")
Not to mention the collateral damage to VW dealers and their employees. There are going to be a lot of empty showrooms while consumers wait for the other shoe to drop. what if the same defeat device was installed in their gasoline models?
5
Why does VW owe the customers anything?
The cars work just fine, right?
Owners don't suffer any more than anyone else from increased emissions.
I don't think they should pay owners a dime.
I do think they owe a penalty to the states and federal gov for breaking emissions rules, but not to any individual. People who bought the car to be green were wrong, and can be mad or ashamed or whatever, but they should not be compensated.
And I say all this as a solar owning, electric car driving environmentalist from California. Life is tough. Move on.
The cars work just fine, right?
Owners don't suffer any more than anyone else from increased emissions.
I don't think they should pay owners a dime.
I do think they owe a penalty to the states and federal gov for breaking emissions rules, but not to any individual. People who bought the car to be green were wrong, and can be mad or ashamed or whatever, but they should not be compensated.
And I say all this as a solar owning, electric car driving environmentalist from California. Life is tough. Move on.
33
They should compensate their customers because they committed FRAUD. They sold those cars as meeting US emissions requirements DESPITE running on diesel. That's a big part of the reason those people bought those cars. If I sell you a shot of whiskey that I tell you is 30 year old Kentucky bourbon but you later find out it was 1 year old rotgut, should I owe you nothing? You got the same amount of alcohol right?
2
Would you feel the same about the manufacturer of your car if they deceived you and you were in fact spewing pollutants from your electric car? Or that your solar panels were off-gassing into the environment? Would you just 'get over it' and move on?
2
Well the car won't pass state inspections
1
I'm just as outraged as everyone else, but I wonder: If the fix reduces fuel economy to improve emissions, is it a wash? In other words, the "fixed" TDI's will be burning more diesel (albeit with fewer emissions). Isn't this just robbing Peter to pay Paul?
7
If a pollution limit is in terms of mass per unit of distance traveled (e.g., milligrams per kilometer) and a vehicle is spewing forty times that limit, it is definitely not a wash to get the vehicle into compliance.
No, it's robbing the customer to pay Peter and Paul. Diesel costs 25% more than gas here now, and it has cost at least 10% more since we bought it in 2010. Fuel economy offset those costs, but less so after the supposed fix coming.
2
It's not as simple as that. The current set of regulations dictates certain fuel economy target AND emissions are kept within the required limits.
A simplified analogy: 5 buckets of grey water dumped into a stream is not the same as one bucket of toxic sludge. This is what it comes down to.
A simplified analogy: 5 buckets of grey water dumped into a stream is not the same as one bucket of toxic sludge. This is what it comes down to.
2
VW's 2014 revenues were in excess of $200B, and are likely to be close to that this year, even with decreased sales from their criminal activity. Whatever amount they offer to pay (or are fined) is a small number compared to the money they have taken in with their fraudulent behavior. Of course, the US accounts for less than 5% of the affected cars worldwide, so they may be on the hook for much more, depending on what other countries do. It's the best way to send a clear message to VW's corporate criminals and others who will surely be watching.
7
I've got 2014 Jetta TDI and I am mad as hell about this mess. I do find it interesting that the same people who are indignant about the VW TDI polluting their air don't mind a bit driving on a highway in a middle of caravan of diesel trucks which are spewing a lot more pollutants than any VW TDI
13
They should get rid of truck desiels too!
1
Those trucks are carrying goods, which we all need. So it is not a comparable value.
One option not explored here is for Volkswagen to offer biodiesel conversions for affected owners and to extend the warranty for those using biodiesel. Currently, using biodiesel (in some cases simply vegetable oil with few if any modifications to the engine required) voids the manufacturers warranty. Though biodiesel may not be a viable solution, environmentally speaking, for mass consumption, making it an option for owners of the vehicles that were part of this conspiracy would likely placate a not insignificant segment of the affected population - myself included.
3
There's a passage in the 2014 Passat TDI manual that covers biodiesel percentage. I was semi-amused to see that owners who title their cars in Illinois (which I did) get a pass on running higher diodiesel concentrations. If memory serves, everyone else in the country is limited to 5% or less if they want to keep their warranty intact.
If they can do it in Illinois, they probably ought to be able to do it everywhere...
If they can do it in Illinois, they probably ought to be able to do it everywhere...
Just wait. This will turn out to be an issue with all diesels. The Europeans have known about this for a while now. Once the smoke clears, the environmrntalists will be demanding the abolition of all diesel engines.
Volkswagen did more for our children's environment with these cars than has all of our regulators together. The devil is in the details; The "cheat" makes the fuel mileage of the cars better, and the CO2 emissions lower. Yes, we're going to destroy a company because they made CO2 emissions lower than our environmental regulations permit.
2
What are you talking about? No improvement in mileage will make up for a 40x increase in NOx emissions.
1
I don't see why the owners should eat the depreciation by having to take a fair market price buy back. Since it was intentional fraud, a full refund is in order.
15
Agreed!
Maybe VW could coat the radiators of all its cars (both new and recalled) with the Engelhard, I mean, BASF PremAir Catalyst which supposedly scarfs ozone from the air. It can't offset the additional nitrous that they dumped into the air, but it might score a few green points, with little impact on performance. (If the catalyst actually works.)
1
There are two separate issues here. First VW knowingly defrauded customers. They owe reasonable compensation. My 2012 Golf TDI is financed through VW; they could tear up the note in exchange for the car.
Second, there is damage to the environment, payable to the government in the form of fines.
VW must pay for BOTH damages. Any solution that only deals with one of these issues(such as an editorial in another publication that called for VW to purchase cars for poor people) is unsatisfactory.
Second, there is damage to the environment, payable to the government in the form of fines.
VW must pay for BOTH damages. Any solution that only deals with one of these issues(such as an editorial in another publication that called for VW to purchase cars for poor people) is unsatisfactory.
9
Cars aren't good for the environment. Even the Tesla requires electricity and more than half the electricity in Los Angeles comes from coal. People who thought they were doing something good for the environment by buying a diesel car should be enrolled in classes where they can be educated about the environment.
Volkswagen should pay a hefty fine to the government for cheating. Car owners could be given a check for the difference between the Blue Book price of the car before and after the announcement.
People might also be offered a replacement car from Volkswagen at a significant discount in return for turning in their car and having it taken off the road.
People who ride in passenger jets, drive cars, heat or air condition their houses, or wear clothes and eat food shipped to the United States should get off their high horse about how environmental they are being by criticizing Volkswagen. Everybody sees through you.
Volkswagen should pay a hefty fine to the government for cheating. Car owners could be given a check for the difference between the Blue Book price of the car before and after the announcement.
People might also be offered a replacement car from Volkswagen at a significant discount in return for turning in their car and having it taken off the road.
People who ride in passenger jets, drive cars, heat or air condition their houses, or wear clothes and eat food shipped to the United States should get off their high horse about how environmental they are being by criticizing Volkswagen. Everybody sees through you.
17
The VW thing is different. It is fraud, and fraud is a crime. The other things you mention are lifestyle issues.
3
Number of news stories I have read, here and elsewhere, that mention how much these cars cost new: Zero.
If the EPA has discretion on the $37,500 fine, then the penalty should be that amount minus what the owner paid for the car and was reimbursed by the company. How many buyers paid more than $37,500? Maybe some day we will find out. There is nothing to prevent VW from paying them more. Nor is there a reason for the government to collect more than consumers.
If the EPA has discretion on the $37,500 fine, then the penalty should be that amount minus what the owner paid for the car and was reimbursed by the company. How many buyers paid more than $37,500? Maybe some day we will find out. There is nothing to prevent VW from paying them more. Nor is there a reason for the government to collect more than consumers.
3
I agree, the EPA fine is stiff, but VW's actions earned it. Buy back my car at the price I paid for it then destroy it. There were several other cars I looked at the time and I would have never made the decision to purchase the Jetta sport wagon TDI without the milage and pep of the engine. Last May they flashed my car and my 39mpg going to the dealership went down to 36MPG going home. I can imagine that there will be another hit when they re flash it to really lower the emissions (even if that is possible).
1
Can't pass California smog controls. Won't be able to be driven once annual license plate renewal comes up, unless legislature passes something that gets them off the road sooner!
3
It WILL pass California's test. That's the whole point. VW deliberately hoodwinked the testers.
It will pass the test--fraudulently. (Unless and until CA acts to disallow affected cars from passing...)
What about the rest of us forced to breathe polluted air into our innocent lungs?
3
This scandal is also going to impact the people who depend on the brand for their livelihood. Sales of all models will probably fall off dramatically.
1
The issue with the fuel system is not limited to emissions. There's an extended warranty to 120,000 mi. intended to cover total failure. My wife and child were stranded in the middle of the road. VW could compensate me for emissions by honoring its extended warranty! My car's at Lowcountry VW right now. If anyone at VW corporate is reading this, would you please call your dealer's service department and ask them to fix my car under the extended warranty?
This "stunt" was not pulled off by company "employees" -- although many technical wonks had firsthand knowledge -- but by executives and leaders of the company. Until there is a real personal penalty for such malfeasance and protection for the whistle blowers who bring it to light (both inside an organization, and outside if resolution is not achieved) this amoral business environment will continue to reward those who deceive the public, assured that the odds are in their favor of never being detected.
2
Well, somebody wrote the code for the engine control computer, and I guarantee it wasn't an executive!
I just bought a TDI 58 days ago and it's my third and last Volkswagen. I feel ashamed and betrayed every time I drive it. The only reasonable compensation the company can give me at this point is a full refund and damages as they are accrued each day that I have to continue driving it. Currently there is no other choice but to take part in a class-action lawsuit and I doubt there is anything VW can do to regain my trust.
6
Your comment is so perfectly reasonable, try a new civic or Accord, excellent match for you(r) comment.
VW should buy them all back and resell them in Cuba. There they drive 60-year-old American clunkers that are vastly more polluting than even a diesel engine.
7
Many have already been re-engined; with diesels from European companies. The old American engines in many cases could not be repaired for lack of parts.
2
You mean than even a coal roller truck ? I doubt it!
We bought our 2013 Jetta diesel over Prius and Ford hybrids because the diesel was advertised as "clean" and the mileage was comparable to these hybrids. It is our third VW and our second VW diesel. We were cheated. We are waiting to see what VW will offer to make amends. At a minimum, we would want a credit for our purchase price for a gasoline VW. Under the consumer protection laws of most states, the consumer is entitled to attorney fees when the actions of the seller constitutes intentional fraud. Courts often award punitive damages when fraud is intentional. Here we have a clear case of intentional fraud. VW has even admitted it. Attorney hourly rates are even greater than those of VW's diesel mechanics. So VW has a choice. It can be at least fair with its customers. Or it can attempt to nickel and dime us. If it chooses the latter, then we will sue. VW can then pay its own attorney fees plus ours. It may even get to pay punitive damages.
40
Buy back the vehicles and then do what with them? If VW resells them as used in a country with lower emissions' standards then the real problem—dirty cars on Earth—hasn't been solved. The cars have to either be fixed to comply with standards here in the U.S. or crushed. If crushed, then the waste of those resources would outweigh any good. The cars need to be fixed, the owners compensated for being misled and for their troubles, and VW needs to produce a car that is so clean it will make up for the pollution their lies have caused. Then, the owners of the dirty cars should receive a significant credit toward the future purchase of the clean version.
22
After removing the fraudulent software, the cars would be clean diesels, as advertised. Horsepower and mpg would presumably be lower, but no one is saying how much lower yet. Maybe not too much. VW engineers must know the answer.
The cars would pass smog inspection even in California, so there is no need to crush them.
The cars would pass smog inspection even in California, so there is no need to crush them.
Simple. VW buys them back and does the ECU remapping so the cars run in compliance for emissions. Then they can sell them for what they can get, as compliant vehicles. If the performance is reduced along with mileage, let them eat the reduced resale value. If the reliability is reduced by increased engine wear caused by the re-map, they can sell them with extended warranties.
2
Buy them back, reflash the ECUs to a compliant map and then resell them as what they will be, compliant cars that aren't as good-performing, or as fuel efficient or as durable as they originally were. At least they will be less-polluting.
Let VW take the financial hit. That company was happy to advertise and sell its small diesels at a substantial premium when new, let them eat their fraud.
Let VW take the financial hit. That company was happy to advertise and sell its small diesels at a substantial premium when new, let them eat their fraud.
I'm not impressed with any of these options. The company committed intentional fraud. In the legal world, that means the consumer is entitled to full restitution (i.e., the full amount paid for the vehicle at time of purchase, not what it was worth the day before the fraud was revealed), plus interest (accrued from date of purchase), plus punitive damages. Sorry - a $1,000 gift card toward the charity of my choice isn't going to cut it. No way no how.
87
VW should be forced to replace the emissions control systems and ECU in EVERY vehicle affected.
GM and Toyota were forced to recall tens of millions of cars. Why should VW be the exception?
GM and Toyota were forced to recall tens of millions of cars. Why should VW be the exception?
"...it isn’t at all clear how best to compensate people who chose these cars deliberately because they wanted their driving to be gentler on the planet."
--This would be a very difficult thing to quantify, at least for reimbursement to owners. They should only be compensated for time off to attend to a recall, or a loaner car. But for gentleness to the planet, compensate governments.
--This would be a very difficult thing to quantify, at least for reimbursement to owners. They should only be compensated for time off to attend to a recall, or a loaner car. But for gentleness to the planet, compensate governments.
If VW can't figure out a fix that brings down emissions to EPA standards and that also retains intact the originally advertised fuel economy and performance of their 1.6 & 2.0 liter/4 cylinder diesel models, the company should pay each owner the full purchase-price (as in day 1), complete with related taxes and fees. Anything short of that would be adding insult upon injury since fraud (as in emissions) can't be rectified with yet more fraud (as in passing the buck to affected car owners, many of whom, such as myself, are not people with sufficient fiscal solvency to absorb the hit and easily move on to something better).
1
As Richard Coniff notes in his coming Sunday Review piece, the decision makers at VW (effectively a family run company), both on the board, in upper management and in the department that came up with this clever device, have not only damaged the pocketbooks of their customers, but all of our lungs, particularly the lungs of children, and the hearts and circulatory systems of our most vulnerable neighbors (all over the planet). There should be no restoration of "trust." Those decision makers should be in jail, and VW should be seized, broken up or shut down. It is a criminal organizations, run by criminals. Every state and local prosecutor should proceed against them and seek the most severe penalties available. This is what happens, and will continue to happen, when corporate interests suppress effective regulation and control our political, administrative and legislative processes. The problem is, rather obviously, not limited to the US. It is global. This car company, born to serve the Nazi government, is just one manifestation of that problem.
This is more a crime against society in general than it is against the owners of the affected vehicles, and as such the fines and penalties which go to the public purse should be the biggest cost.
The owners should have the problem fixed at no cost, any increase in servicing as a result of the fully functional emissions control equipment required to maintain the vehicle for the remainder of its useful life should be provided to the vehicle owners at no cost, and they should be compensated for any reduction in the value of the vehicle as a result of this problem.
There will be owners and class action lawyers who try to claim for themselves the compensation that should go to public coffers, but they shouldn't get away with that, there should be no windfall to the owners of these vehicles.
The owners should have the problem fixed at no cost, any increase in servicing as a result of the fully functional emissions control equipment required to maintain the vehicle for the remainder of its useful life should be provided to the vehicle owners at no cost, and they should be compensated for any reduction in the value of the vehicle as a result of this problem.
There will be owners and class action lawyers who try to claim for themselves the compensation that should go to public coffers, but they shouldn't get away with that, there should be no windfall to the owners of these vehicles.
No, it is definitely a fraud on the owners. They were sold so-called "clean" diesels that definitely were not, and they were charged a premium of several thousands of dollars for the engines. They are owed compensation.
Considering the inefficiency with which most, but not all, non-profit organizations convert financial resources into outcomes, environmental interest would likely be better served by VW settlement dollars going directly to current owners of TDI VWs in the form of incentives to purchase new TDIs. VW should then have the discretion to either destroy or make the TDI cars received in-trade emissions complaint.
This plan would make existing owners whole and it would render the US fleet cleaner than it would have been even had the prior generations of TDIs been emission compliant. VW loses the gain reaped by fraud, owners have the opportunity to receive subsidized trades, and air quality is improved. Everyone wins- except the non-profit organizations to which Mr. Lieber proposes the delivery of a windfall.
-Michael
This plan would make existing owners whole and it would render the US fleet cleaner than it would have been even had the prior generations of TDIs been emission compliant. VW loses the gain reaped by fraud, owners have the opportunity to receive subsidized trades, and air quality is improved. Everyone wins- except the non-profit organizations to which Mr. Lieber proposes the delivery of a windfall.
-Michael
1
Make VW replace all the fraudulent VW diesels with Tesla cars. That would salve the owners, make up for past over-emissions, and put Tesla into the major leagues.
3
I bought my 2012 Jetta Sportswagen TDI after having had a Golf diesel for years. As a person whose job depended upon driving 500-1000/week, I thought I was doing the world justice by buying what was billed as environmentally friendly. Now, as an unwitting pawn in a total fraud, even getting paid back won't make the stink of this go away. What might be worse is if VW DOESN'T do some sort of buy-back. Fixing the car is one thing, but what if we don't want it anymore? Then we're also stuck with a car we cannot sell or trade for a fair, reasonable price. It's a car that I'm STILL working to pay off, by the way. Given all the corporate greed and lack of accountability these days, I fear that we won't be made whole. At least not without having to get lawyers involved, and honestly, who REALLY wins out in THAT endeavor??
1
Good luck unshattering shattered trust Volkswagen. But yeah, doing the right thing is a good first step and offering owners a choice between buy-backs at a fair price or fixes + compensation for lost performance and resale value comes pretty close. You still owe the environment something and you are still guilty of fraud for which big fines and jail time are in order.
1
How about the 500M go to preserve rain forests around the world, rather than stupid whining to governments. Now whoever ordered this and did it need to be in jail, only that will dissuade future such actions. I bet that some level of management demanded things that could not be delivered, and apparently the culture in VW did not encourage them to just say NO!!! Then you cheat on the idea you won't be caught. Culture in corporations is all important, and usually weak in the ethical arena.
I don't believe most people had clean air in mind as the major incentive in the purchase decision. I do believe most people -- myself included -- purchased these vehicles for their fuel economy and performance, as well as the cars' reasonable purchase price. The emissions claim by the manufacturer was assumed to be truthful, and therefore, acceptable for the consumers.
3
Clean air was a major incentive for me, my two previous cars were Priuses.
What precedents (if any) exist based on other manufacturers who performed similar actions? If memory serves, GM (via Cadillac) and Ford both were guilty of similar deceptions in the past; Hyundai more recently had to compensate owners for overstating MPG ratings. I expect there are other examples out there.
As for testing, much of the testing is flawed since laboratory conditions don't replicate real world conditions (who believes the MPG ratings? how often do you achieve them in reality?). Why are companies allowed to do things like remove equipment, seats and other components prior to testing in some markets and then claim that their vehicles meet some higher standard.
The pursuit of the all mighty dollar at all costs to the detriment of society at large has led us down a path that is not good for society or the environment.
As for testing, much of the testing is flawed since laboratory conditions don't replicate real world conditions (who believes the MPG ratings? how often do you achieve them in reality?). Why are companies allowed to do things like remove equipment, seats and other components prior to testing in some markets and then claim that their vehicles meet some higher standard.
The pursuit of the all mighty dollar at all costs to the detriment of society at large has led us down a path that is not good for society or the environment.
1
I am an owner of a new Passat TDI and I only want compensation for any fuel mileage less than what the EPA said I would get when the diesel engine is unmodified, to the standard that passed the pollution requirements. I still feel confident that my auto is better than a comparable gas powered vehicle and have no desire to harm a company that has produced the many VW cars I have bought over a periods of decades.
25
I've read some calculations that VW diesels in the US are producing around 50,000 tons more NOx pollution than expected due to this issue. That is a whole lot of pollution, but if you were to find the easiest solution to this it would be to allow them to offset those extra emissions by purchasing an equal amount of NOx credits on the open market. Those credits run less than $700 per ton. So in theory, VW could offset all that extra pollution for around US$35 million. Even if they just publicly announced this and did not wait until a regulator told them to do so, they could immediately gain at least that much goodwill.
13
"I'm shocked, shocked, to find that gambling is going on in here."
So VW, the world's largest automaker sells 11 million cars with known material defects. What's odd about this one is that the defect didn't kill any of the car owners (as in the Honda/Toyota airbag recall, the Ford & Jeep exploding gas tank recalls, the GM ignition switch recalls, etc.) It only poisoned the air for everyone else.
A part of Winterkorn's drive to make VW more successful in the US was to make the company and it's brands seem "less German." Well, that worked.
Written as a 2010 Jetta TDI owner and long-time VW buyer who is really, really disappointed in this company.
So VW, the world's largest automaker sells 11 million cars with known material defects. What's odd about this one is that the defect didn't kill any of the car owners (as in the Honda/Toyota airbag recall, the Ford & Jeep exploding gas tank recalls, the GM ignition switch recalls, etc.) It only poisoned the air for everyone else.
A part of Winterkorn's drive to make VW more successful in the US was to make the company and it's brands seem "less German." Well, that worked.
Written as a 2010 Jetta TDI owner and long-time VW buyer who is really, really disappointed in this company.
2
Asking what the company COULD do to compensate is probably irrelevant, because left to their own devices they are unlikely to do much besides spend large sums on PR. The real question is: to what lengths are the regulatory agencies, Attorneys General, and courts willing to go to ensure appropriate compensation at all levels: owners, dealers, and members of the public who potentially suffered health consequences?
2
When I bought my TDI, I didn't go into the dealership and ask them "how many grams/mile of Nitrogen Oxide did it give off", and nor did they offer that statistic.
I bought the car because it was incredibly fuel efficient, U.S. Would save money, it was fun to drive and it was well made. By being fuel efficient, I figured I was also putting less money into the hands of odious middle eastern leaders, with all the problems that causes.
If 'being green' entered my thought process during the purchase decision, maybe I thought I was by virtue of simply burning less fossil fuel in the first instance.
Simplistic, perhaps, but I'm sure I'm not alone among fellow TDI owners in my rationale.
I bought the car because it was incredibly fuel efficient, U.S. Would save money, it was fun to drive and it was well made. By being fuel efficient, I figured I was also putting less money into the hands of odious middle eastern leaders, with all the problems that causes.
If 'being green' entered my thought process during the purchase decision, maybe I thought I was by virtue of simply burning less fossil fuel in the first instance.
Simplistic, perhaps, but I'm sure I'm not alone among fellow TDI owners in my rationale.
4
You're right. Most buyers took compliance for granted, which was reasonable since the cars had been approved for sale by the government (on duplicitous company data it turned out.)
Where Are We to Turn?
Yes, I have owned many Audi's and currently own a 2014 Audi Q5 TDI. When i called Audi of America's customer service, they simply told me only the 4-cyclinder engines were "currently" known to have the software issue, as they really have NO CLUE. When i called my local Audi dealer and spoke with the service manager, they were defensive and dismissive, that it's really not a problem, and he said even the customers with gasoline engines are calling. And YES, I would like to be repaid the amount I originally paid for the Q5, plus maintenance and more to offset my angst.
Now I have read that other car manufacturers diesel engines are being looked into, and note that this similar thing happened to TRUCK manufacturers a few years ago. And, I wouldn't doubt that this is an INDUSTRY wide issue that is could have significant financial, environmental, and regulatory implications.
It really speaks to the fallacy of "let industry police themselves" attitude and the need for tough regulations WITH money form the manufacturers to pay for it.
We can only wish for more affordable electric vehicles with stronger or easily replaceable batteries that allow us to avoid "distance anxiety" from a depleted battery.
Yes, I have owned many Audi's and currently own a 2014 Audi Q5 TDI. When i called Audi of America's customer service, they simply told me only the 4-cyclinder engines were "currently" known to have the software issue, as they really have NO CLUE. When i called my local Audi dealer and spoke with the service manager, they were defensive and dismissive, that it's really not a problem, and he said even the customers with gasoline engines are calling. And YES, I would like to be repaid the amount I originally paid for the Q5, plus maintenance and more to offset my angst.
Now I have read that other car manufacturers diesel engines are being looked into, and note that this similar thing happened to TRUCK manufacturers a few years ago. And, I wouldn't doubt that this is an INDUSTRY wide issue that is could have significant financial, environmental, and regulatory implications.
It really speaks to the fallacy of "let industry police themselves" attitude and the need for tough regulations WITH money form the manufacturers to pay for it.
We can only wish for more affordable electric vehicles with stronger or easily replaceable batteries that allow us to avoid "distance anxiety" from a depleted battery.
3
It is amazing to see people actually calling for the seizure of personal assets - apparently from when/where ever and from how long ago - from people at VW who may have had a lot or a little to do with this fracas. Where do people get these sorts of insane ideas? We're not talking about "proceeds of a crime" such as funds associated with money laundering, but even things like their homes, cars, anything they ever earned, inherited, bought, etc., apparently, in this medieval crown blood lust. Totally out of proportion to any offense committed and without basis in the law in civilized countries.
1
"Now, the logos on their vehicles have made them brand ambassadors for confessed cheaters, and their cars spew as much as 40 times more pollution than emissions standards permit. How do you compensate somebody for that?"
Of course, certifiable losses based on things like depreciated value, for example, deserve adequate, reasonable recompense. But really, the notion of the supposed embarrassment of one's car bearing a logo of some company that did something wrong really warrants payouts? Some of these notions are just silly and juvenile.
Of course, certifiable losses based on things like depreciated value, for example, deserve adequate, reasonable recompense. But really, the notion of the supposed embarrassment of one's car bearing a logo of some company that did something wrong really warrants payouts? Some of these notions are just silly and juvenile.
1
They should:
1) Fix the cars in the near term, and
2) Offer to exchange affected cars for new ones that meet the original promises when they were available. This could take a few years, and would be expensive, but could be done with existing technology (lighter materials, turbo, perhaps energy recapture systems). This would instantly make existing cars worth more than they were worth and fairly compensate existing owners for having been deceived.
1) Fix the cars in the near term, and
2) Offer to exchange affected cars for new ones that meet the original promises when they were available. This could take a few years, and would be expensive, but could be done with existing technology (lighter materials, turbo, perhaps energy recapture systems). This would instantly make existing cars worth more than they were worth and fairly compensate existing owners for having been deceived.
2
This episode will be the Mother of All Automotive Recalls.
VW has to pay:
- Owners of diesel cars
- Fines and other charges for skirting the laws in the US.
- Fines and other charges in Europe
- Fines and other charges from all the countries where VW is
- Shareholder lawsuits
- Lawsuits from the disgruntled diesel car owners and their lawyers
- Fines and other charges from the German government
- Employee lawsuits
- Plus more that we haven't seen as of yet
The recall at GM for the ignition switch will seem like a cakewalk compared to this. VW cannot simply pay and fine and all will be right. WE WILL SEE criminal prosecution. VW will change.
VW really screwed up. Big Time.
VW has to pay:
- Owners of diesel cars
- Fines and other charges for skirting the laws in the US.
- Fines and other charges in Europe
- Fines and other charges from all the countries where VW is
- Shareholder lawsuits
- Lawsuits from the disgruntled diesel car owners and their lawyers
- Fines and other charges from the German government
- Employee lawsuits
- Plus more that we haven't seen as of yet
The recall at GM for the ignition switch will seem like a cakewalk compared to this. VW cannot simply pay and fine and all will be right. WE WILL SEE criminal prosecution. VW will change.
VW really screwed up. Big Time.
4
These diesels are great for the environment! The people following them and living next to the roads will die early and thus relieve the planet of the load. I fail to see how compensating the owners makes any sense at all, since the purpose of the regulation is to protect everyone, not the owners of the vehicles specifically.
How could VW compensate diesel owners?
Germany should concede Bavaria as a playground for all jilted VW owners. We should receive free annual round trip transportation on Lufthansa, first class, direct from NYC to Munchen, together with two weeks stay at a five star hotel in the Alps, to clear our befouled lungs. For life (shortened as that may be).
Germany should concede Bavaria as a playground for all jilted VW owners. We should receive free annual round trip transportation on Lufthansa, first class, direct from NYC to Munchen, together with two weeks stay at a five star hotel in the Alps, to clear our befouled lungs. For life (shortened as that may be).
1
I'm as disgusted as all the other TDI owners. At this point, I'll await the software fix, and then keep driving the (presumably less fuel-efficient) car while VW decides what to offer me to compensate for selling me a falsely-labeled product. I'll then decide if I think it's enough, vs. sign on to a class-action suit. It had better be more than just buying the car for what it was worth at the time the story broke.
And this just addresses the fraud on buyers-- the harm to environment/public will need to be addressed too.
And this just addresses the fraud on buyers-- the harm to environment/public will need to be addressed too.
2
Were I the owner of one of the affected cars, I would avoid ever going into a VW dealership like the plague. Applying the 'fix' will lessen the mileage and reduce the performance of the vehicle, as well as probably shorten the life of the engine.
But without the fix, you can't register the car.
So you can't drive it legally, or sell it.
So you can't drive it legally, or sell it.
unlikely that not fixing the the cars is going to be an option when you go to reregister.
As an owner of a 2015 WV Golf Sportwagen, purchased in April 2015, the just response from VW is to buy back my car at the retail price I paid. For those who say urea injection will fix the problem... well my car has urea injection (AdBlue) and it still failed real world tests substantially. I love the way my car handles, accelerates and capaciously handles large loads -- but it a lie and fraud committed upon me and every other TDI owner. VW is dead to me as a company -- just compensate me for the fraud you committed and let me go on my way. VW is now a failed company. While Winterkorn should roast in Hell, he apparently will get a $67M separation -- a good price for a loathsome job.
3
customers should be given a cash amount of $1000 plus the retail difference of what they get when they trade in their car for another make or model and a 0% car loan. bankrupting VW will not improve the environment or create jobs. I would rather see the fines go to clean coal research than charities. wouldn't cleaner affordable energy be a benefit to everyone breathing the dirty air VW has sneaked into the environment illegally?
Not to defend culpable employees at VW, or any other business or manufacturer (just wait) for ill-conceived and deeply-damaging regulatory workarounds; but let's not incite everyone with an opinion -- into an ignorant or hateful lynch-the-whole-corporation mob.
This news is still new, very entangled, and rapidly evolving. The general public (and may in the media) may be transfixed by flashing alerts to "breaking news", but what we long-time NYTimes supporters value most is depth, wisdom, and patience to deliver things -- accurately, wisely, and in perspective.
With all due respect, Mr. Lieber's very selectively quoting the (already compromised) Wintercorn, or going to a songwriter "… the first person I think of when I think about Volkswagen" for this article's lede and sidebar, is just too convenient. Maybe he (and other journalists at the NYTimes) should first do a thoughtful compare & contrast exercise: of the actual damages (economical/personal/environmental), with our other human activities, offenses, and indulgences?
And then, to consider whether a few individuals' dreamy suggestions for their compensation, or the mob's thirst for revenge -- do more global/personal/environmental damage than that of the original offense?
This news is still new, very entangled, and rapidly evolving. The general public (and may in the media) may be transfixed by flashing alerts to "breaking news", but what we long-time NYTimes supporters value most is depth, wisdom, and patience to deliver things -- accurately, wisely, and in perspective.
With all due respect, Mr. Lieber's very selectively quoting the (already compromised) Wintercorn, or going to a songwriter "… the first person I think of when I think about Volkswagen" for this article's lede and sidebar, is just too convenient. Maybe he (and other journalists at the NYTimes) should first do a thoughtful compare & contrast exercise: of the actual damages (economical/personal/environmental), with our other human activities, offenses, and indulgences?
And then, to consider whether a few individuals' dreamy suggestions for their compensation, or the mob's thirst for revenge -- do more global/personal/environmental damage than that of the original offense?
4
As an owner of VW Jetta TDI, simply paying me Bluebook value from the day prior to the announcement is not acceptable. I purchased this car with an expected lifespan of 10-12 years. Simply paying me the used value leaves me and others like me with a financial loss. Most of the depreciation is in the first two years. I can not purchase an acceptable replacement with the used value of my current car. I believe that VW should refund my purchase price and take back the vehicle. This is not a defect. They committed fraud. Pure and simple. I don't want discounts for another VW. I had been considering an eGolf (electric) to replace my second car, but now I doubt that I will consider another VW.
56
Two words: Fiat and history.
If you're planning to drive th car for it's expected lifespan, how does any of this affect you financially!
I look forward to reading technical information about what the malicious software did, how, when, and why. The details should be interesting.
I own one of the cars that will be recalled. I recognize that the two things are different facets of the same design challenge, but it's tough to figure out how a car that's turning in 50+ MPG every tank is a lot worse for the environment than my previous car that got around 29 MPG when I drive them about the same number of miles. Is it the particulates? The specific mix of exhaust gases?
When I bought mine, the "clean" part was nice, but the "efficient" part was the real draw.
Other than the loss of trust, what have I personally lost? I gained $/mile in fuel with every tank. I take it in for planned maintenance roughly 1/3 as often (10K miles instead of 3K).
Sure, you can offer me cash, extended warranty, or other things to make up for the loss of trust and the potential loss of performance, fuel economy, etc. If my fuel economy goes down to the EPA estimate that was on the sticker, I'll still be way ahead when compared with my old car. It's a stick shift, so I have options to compensate for performance issues.
Reimburse the environment. I'm not hurting that badly.
I own one of the cars that will be recalled. I recognize that the two things are different facets of the same design challenge, but it's tough to figure out how a car that's turning in 50+ MPG every tank is a lot worse for the environment than my previous car that got around 29 MPG when I drive them about the same number of miles. Is it the particulates? The specific mix of exhaust gases?
When I bought mine, the "clean" part was nice, but the "efficient" part was the real draw.
Other than the loss of trust, what have I personally lost? I gained $/mile in fuel with every tank. I take it in for planned maintenance roughly 1/3 as often (10K miles instead of 3K).
Sure, you can offer me cash, extended warranty, or other things to make up for the loss of trust and the potential loss of performance, fuel economy, etc. If my fuel economy goes down to the EPA estimate that was on the sticker, I'll still be way ahead when compared with my old car. It's a stick shift, so I have options to compensate for performance issues.
Reimburse the environment. I'm not hurting that badly.
12
You also produce a lot less CO2 than the best seller in the US.
Ironically, a class action lawsuit would probably be a relatively cheap settlement for Volkswagen. That's because class action suits aggregate legal costs and settle most claims for a fraction of what the class exemplars receive.
Litigating individual liability claims would probably be more costly because each lawsuit would expose VW to treble damages -- justified in part by harm of extra air pollution. VW diesel owners in states where the vehicles can no longer pass smog inspections have additional cause for punitive damages.
As for the direct economic harm done to VW diesel owners, the idea of using private party Blue Book value seems naive because the vast majority of purchasers probably borrowed money and paid interest to finance their cars. There's also time and effort invested in car shopping, negotiating price, and all the other things people despise about buying cars.
So the real harm is likely to be higher than the amount VW has set already aside -- and that amount does not include punitive damages made likely by the de facto fraud of marketing vehicles which were configured so they could not fulfill all promised specifications simultaneously.
Litigating individual liability claims would probably be more costly because each lawsuit would expose VW to treble damages -- justified in part by harm of extra air pollution. VW diesel owners in states where the vehicles can no longer pass smog inspections have additional cause for punitive damages.
As for the direct economic harm done to VW diesel owners, the idea of using private party Blue Book value seems naive because the vast majority of purchasers probably borrowed money and paid interest to finance their cars. There's also time and effort invested in car shopping, negotiating price, and all the other things people despise about buying cars.
So the real harm is likely to be higher than the amount VW has set already aside -- and that amount does not include punitive damages made likely by the de facto fraud of marketing vehicles which were configured so they could not fulfill all promised specifications simultaneously.
1
Won't VW also have to offer an incentive for some owners to bring their cars in for repair? Many people care about the pollution, but others care more about performance and gas mileage. Or will the government penalize owners who don't bring their cars in to be fixed?
...Mr. Mierzwinski said. “They tried to buy a green, high-performance car and ended up being unwitting participants in a conspiracy to pollute the earth.”
Mr. Mierzwinski, do you really believe in this nonsense you are telling? Are you working for a law firm or an independent institut?
Mr. Mierzwinski, do you really believe in this nonsense you are telling? Are you working for a law firm or an independent institut?
2
Since the Transportation Department forced Fiat Chrysler to buy back Jeeps just two months ago, why couldn't they do the same with Volkswagen now? I just purchased my Jetta TDI SE on September 3rd. I am really unhappy.
1
A fair compensation would be whatever the diminished value of the car is. (What the car would be worth without this news, minus its new value since this news came out.) Whether owners choose to keep or sell the car, this would compensate them for their financial loss and whatever lost performance there might be.
Lieber's article says it all. We paid $27,000 for a new TDI after a lot of research and soul-searching. The car had to be green, high mileage, accommodate some long legs and carry our stuff. We thought about the Prius, but only one car really fit the bill. Of course it was a lie. Now the satisfaction of making the monetary sacrifice to do our part is gone, replaced with the awful feeling of polluting everything in our wake, and having been duped. And if VW is counting on customers accepting some quick software fix, think again. We've been down that road with Honda's little Civic Hybrid scandal already. Owners beware! That software fix may leave you with a car that drives nothing like the one you fell for. Don't settle. Everyone who bought a TDI deserves to revisit the moment of purchase and make an informed choice.
1
VW should announce that every customer who wants the software turned off can have it done right now, with no obligation to keep the car if other options, such as a buy-back, are offered later. Many of us would be willing to drive a less peppy, but cleaner car while we wait for them to figure this out, instead of being stuck with a toxic beast for however long it takes. Mitigating the continuing damage to the environment and public health is the moral thing to do in the short term, while they work out what to do in the longer term for the government, shareholders, and customers.
5
How does giving extra cash to owners compensate for the missing environmental benefit? The environmental compensation should be for VW to improve air quality in the countries where it sold cheater diesels. Plant two billion trees, etc.
1
It doesn't, but VW still owes its defrauded customers for their losses in value of their cars--cars they paid VW a premium for on the belief the cars operated cleanly and provided good economy and performance--as the cars will suffer loss in performance, loss of economy of fuel mileage, loss of service life of engine parts and loss of expected resale value, because of VW's fraud and deception.
My daughter bought the Jetta TDI because it was a "green" car and because it got really good gas mileage. Had she known what was really happening, she would not have bought the car, but would have purchased a Prius instead. Even if VW does fix the pollution problem, the gas mileage will suffer- so she is out on both counts. VW should reimburse the purchase amount to owners if they choose that route.
1
Awareness of VW gaming emission tests may have started in the US, but they have 20x more cars to worry about globally. Diesels are over 50% of the car market in many European countries are diesels compared to here. Those owners and the company's image are much bigger worries for VW.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/425113/eu-car-sales-share-of-diesel-e...
http://www.statista.com/statistics/425113/eu-car-sales-share-of-diesel-e...
This is a really tough hill for them to climb, but buying back (or offering to) the cars is a solid step. Maybe they should contact Tesla about a partnership and head completely in the green direction (assuming Tesla would listen at all).
1
But then again, this column is not discussing the elephant in the room, which is the excess number of illnesses, deaths, and shortened lifespans, as well as the increase in CO2 resulting from this fraud. That is the most important cost. But then again, many of these 'tragedy of the commons' costs *can* be calculated. And they should, and VW should be made to pay them.
Then VW should buy back each of the affected cars, at original prices. Should VW be able to sell them once fixed, great --but let VW do the work.
Finally, there is the punitive aspect. I think that, as Jonathan said, this is clearly a RICO case, and VW should be prosecuted as a company for this --and its executives and key engineer participating in this sham, should be prosecuted individually as well.
When a private person tampers with the catalytic converter before a sale, he or she is engaging in many US states in a criminal act --let us apply the same laws to big lawbreakers.
Then VW should buy back each of the affected cars, at original prices. Should VW be able to sell them once fixed, great --but let VW do the work.
Finally, there is the punitive aspect. I think that, as Jonathan said, this is clearly a RICO case, and VW should be prosecuted as a company for this --and its executives and key engineer participating in this sham, should be prosecuted individually as well.
When a private person tampers with the catalytic converter before a sale, he or she is engaging in many US states in a criminal act --let us apply the same laws to big lawbreakers.
1
"Now, there may be a performance loss once the fix is made..."
But how is this a drawback. Owners are claiming to be upset that their cars are polluting more than they were advertised as doing when purchased. So the cars should've been slower than they were in reality. So now VW will need to bring them up (repair them) to where the customers say they thought they already were, which is to say less -polluting. So they got a few years of extra zip with no apparent loss in fuel economy - so how were they individually damaged materially by this?
True, when they trade there may be a lower trade-in value and VW will have to compensate for this.
But how is this a drawback. Owners are claiming to be upset that their cars are polluting more than they were advertised as doing when purchased. So the cars should've been slower than they were in reality. So now VW will need to bring them up (repair them) to where the customers say they thought they already were, which is to say less -polluting. So they got a few years of extra zip with no apparent loss in fuel economy - so how were they individually damaged materially by this?
True, when they trade there may be a lower trade-in value and VW will have to compensate for this.
1
'Mr. Mierzwinski said. “They tried to buy a green, high-performance car and ended up being unwitting participants in a conspiracy to pollute the earth.”'
Completely ludicrous argument. He is speaking for someone who cares about the performance and fuel savings only. Someone who truly puts the enviroment as their primary objective, will be interested in having their car fixed first (without it becoming slow as molasses), not making money off it. Curiously he hasn't said anything about those owners returning whatever tax credits they got. If the planet suffers from this, how does money to the owner reverse this?
The best compensation for the environmentally minded owners will be to buy back at the value before the scandal broke, so these poor folks (for whom I have a lot of sympathy for) can go and buy an electric EV.
For everyone else who demands without any compromise all the torque, horsepower and mileage, or else ("I want all my money back, plus all my fillup costs, plus all service, plus some check for insult, plus ...") all I can say is, dream on. You will have to bring your car into compliance (reflash, and new hardware), and then join a class action, and ... wait. You won't have forever to decide to reflash or not. There will be a window. If you hold out then, you then become defacto in violation of federal emissions laws, and perhaps will be slapped with a fine at renewal time, and you'd still need to bring the car up to emissions standards.
Completely ludicrous argument. He is speaking for someone who cares about the performance and fuel savings only. Someone who truly puts the enviroment as their primary objective, will be interested in having their car fixed first (without it becoming slow as molasses), not making money off it. Curiously he hasn't said anything about those owners returning whatever tax credits they got. If the planet suffers from this, how does money to the owner reverse this?
The best compensation for the environmentally minded owners will be to buy back at the value before the scandal broke, so these poor folks (for whom I have a lot of sympathy for) can go and buy an electric EV.
For everyone else who demands without any compromise all the torque, horsepower and mileage, or else ("I want all my money back, plus all my fillup costs, plus all service, plus some check for insult, plus ...") all I can say is, dream on. You will have to bring your car into compliance (reflash, and new hardware), and then join a class action, and ... wait. You won't have forever to decide to reflash or not. There will be a window. If you hold out then, you then become defacto in violation of federal emissions laws, and perhaps will be slapped with a fine at renewal time, and you'd still need to bring the car up to emissions standards.
1
The tax credits were for purchasing new fuel-efficient vehicles. The TDI-engined cars were and still are fuel efficient. The tax credits were not given for meeting EPA regulations; all cars sold, both those eligible for tax credits and those not were presumed to meet the EPA guidelines.
Vox, agreed. My point was about an accounting of performance metrics that works both ways. As an example, if the advertised fuel economy was 28/41 but the actual was closer to 28/50 should owners receive any compensation if after the fix their actual consumption is now 28/45 mpg? Making a legal case that this is deception is not a slam dunk.
And this will be the trick. The VW fix will need to meet the fuel economy standards that kept the TDIs within those tax incentives, AND in compliance with applicable emissions, AND in agreement with all their marketing literature, brochures, advertising, etc.
And this will be the trick. The VW fix will need to meet the fuel economy standards that kept the TDIs within those tax incentives, AND in compliance with applicable emissions, AND in agreement with all their marketing literature, brochures, advertising, etc.
If the owners don't allow VW to fix the cars, they may fail emission testing and their cars would be worthless. If they do fix them, they will get lower gas mileage. So calculate the loss to owners of lower gas mileage over the life of the car, triple that amount as a penalty, add $5000 as a further penalty and send each owner a check plus a bumper sticker that says, "VW defrauded me and they are not even a bank"
1
For all the reasons addressed in this article, I would like a pre-scandal KBB buyback. I will miss the car I thought I had, but frankly don't trust VW to fix it properly the first time (or ever). My private resale is shot, so this is the best option. By the way, if you want to add insult on injury, check out the manual for a "Clean Diesel" vehicle -- it is printed on recycled paper and peppered with little green flower highlighting tips on how to preserve the environment.
3
I own a 2003 V WGolf TDI. Being old it isn't one that has the software cheat installed. However, it IS affected by the cheat. I have already had people at work over the past few days talk to me about my "polluting VW". So I'm tarred with the same brush as all of the other TDI owners. I won't get a recall, I won't get a nice check from VW (assuming others do) because my TDI won't be recalled. When the time comes I will have is a hard time selling the car and, assuming I can sell it, I'll have a significant loss in value.
1
Just be glad it isn't a Rabbit.
I trust that you are suggesting the $1,000 gift card in addition to the buyback of the vehicle itself. Because otherwise, the consumer is neither getting the value of the car nor being adequately compensated for the harm.
But I would be shocked if VW did anything meaningful for those of us who purchased these vehicles as a means to a healthier planet. Their actions thus far certainly would suggest that they have no interest in doing the right thing.
But I would be shocked if VW did anything meaningful for those of us who purchased these vehicles as a means to a healthier planet. Their actions thus far certainly would suggest that they have no interest in doing the right thing.
Left to their own devises VW would probably fix the computer problem (ruining performance, reliability, MPG and resale value) and offer half off on your next service in compensation. A class action suit likely will make the lawyers rich and net the car owners a pittance.
It seems to me the only hope for reasonable compensation for owners is a bail out or outright nationalization of VW by the German government. Action, legal and otherwise, by the environmental and social justice communities would speed such a decision.
It seems to me the only hope for reasonable compensation for owners is a bail out or outright nationalization of VW by the German government. Action, legal and otherwise, by the environmental and social justice communities would speed such a decision.
I own a diesel sports car. It's a BMW 335d. I purchased this vehicle even though it was more expensive than its gas cousin, the BMW 335i, because it offered what I viewed to be a exceptional balance of power, fuel economy AND met stringent U.S. standards for "clean diesel." While its fuel economy standards were considerably lower than VW vehicles, I would be furious if I were to learn that BMW achieved its power and fuel efficiency numbers by substantially degrading its emissions. Similarly if it substantially reduced the power and fuel economy I now enjoy in order to achieve government mandated emissions (that it should have already been meeting), I would be similarly upset. I bought THIS car because it offered the best blend of the things I sought from a car. And like all of the cars I have owned before, I intend to drive this one for many, many years. If BMW had committed VW's fraud, it would not be good enough for them to offer me Blue Book value for the car (based on the pre-fraud announced date). Cars depreciate A LOT in the early years, so for those of us that planned to own the car a long time, that repurchase date does not make us whole. I feel for VW diesel drivers, and I hope they make VW suffer. This was not an innocent mistake. VW's fraud was premeditated and took place over many years. I really, really hope that BMW has not been playing this game too. I'd like to hear BMW make a press statement to that effect soon.
2
Amen. Very well stated. We traded in a Prius and bought our first VW diesel (a sport wagon that we later traded in for a diesel sedan) for the exact same reasons you state (although I bet you have a little more fun in your BMW!).
I have stated this in another article, but in my estimation, VW will try to keep the owners in their cars if they can. If the fix is only going to impact the performance slightly, they may decide to offer some cash for the lost power (if it was advertised explicitly in their marketing materials), and do all the reflash and upgrades for free. There will most likely be a smog test at the end of all that which they will do for free. It would also be a very good move on their part to extend the powertrain, and emissions warranties to put owners more at ease. As part of all that, the owners will probably be asked to agree to refrain from any legal action against VW.
Failing that, VW will try to hang on to their market share and keep the owners with the brand. So, they may offer some attractive terms for an upgrade to a new comparable model. These two options may not be offered at the same time.
I will go with the first option once we have some idea of how the engine will behave with the emissions controls always on. It may not be that bad.
Owners will need to compromise here. Those for whom their car is an extension of themselves, will be much more easily insulted by all of this, and will have the hardest time of all. For me, it is just a car. It does not affect my identity, dignity, or self-respect.
Failing that, VW will try to hang on to their market share and keep the owners with the brand. So, they may offer some attractive terms for an upgrade to a new comparable model. These two options may not be offered at the same time.
I will go with the first option once we have some idea of how the engine will behave with the emissions controls always on. It may not be that bad.
Owners will need to compromise here. Those for whom their car is an extension of themselves, will be much more easily insulted by all of this, and will have the hardest time of all. For me, it is just a car. It does not affect my identity, dignity, or self-respect.
1
There will likely be a forced recall, Hopefully some law firm will develop a binding document protecting the owners by ensuring that all engine performance and longevity issues will be covered by extend warranties (at least 15 years from date of recall) and not hinder the owner's ability to seek further retribution.
"So now that Volkswagen has put half a million people in the position of polluting far more than they intended, it could give each of them $1,000 on a gift card and let them redeem it for donations to any environmental charity of their choice."
Mr. Lieber, Volkwagen is sufficiently cynical without your help.
Mr. Lieber, Volkwagen is sufficiently cynical without your help.
VW owners who find themselves in possession of cars that pollute far more than they expected at purchase should think long and hard before they buy another diesel. VW falsely marketed their product as "clean diesel."
There is NO SUCH THING as clean diesel. Emissions from diesel engines, in whatever quantities, cause asthma, emphysema and lung cancer. Diesel cars are a dead end on the tree of automotive technological evolution.
There is NO SUCH THING as clean diesel. Emissions from diesel engines, in whatever quantities, cause asthma, emphysema and lung cancer. Diesel cars are a dead end on the tree of automotive technological evolution.
I love my TDI and I love the company VW. Performance and fuel economy are off the chart amazing. I was a VW purist and loyalist. Now I'm really confused. They must fix this situation or I'll never own one again. If they handle it right, they can count me as a customer for life. VW should replace my polluting Passat TDI with a new model, non-polluting Passat TDI which is also high performing. Expensive...yeah. That's my condition for remaining a purist. By doubling down on their amazing diesel technology they may attract new customers.
12
As a non-TDI owner I'm concerned about resale on my GTI. I just put it up for sale last week, lots of interest, and one buyer who worked out a solid deal. He backed out on Wednesday because he no longer has confidence in the brand. No new interest since then. I'm expecting Blue Book value to drop accordingly while also reducing the number of buyers. It's not just Diesel owners that are hit by this, it's all VW owners.
38
Volkswagen TDI. The Lance Armstrong of engines...
32
Buy mine back at full price so I can actually purchase a fuel efficient car that's better for our environment. I love(d) my TDI...now, drive as though a Scarlet Letter is affixed to the hood (and my conscience).
1
VW did not just harm those who bought the cars but also anyone who breathes air (which I think is everyone). It is essential that get all these cars fixed. If the user doesn't get their car retrofitted, then no money.
5
California won't allow you to renew car registration without proof of fix. That evil likely be pretty standard with most states I'd hope...
How will this effect emissions testing?
At this point, here's what we're hearing: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/26/business/epa-to-bolster-testing-because-of-volkswagen-scandal.html
When the illegal software is deleted, the diesel VW will pass emissions testing, and will be as clean on the road as on the testing dyno.
Presumably, performance and mpg will suffer, but only VW knows how much.
If VW decides in addition to upgrade to the urea injection system, the diesel should be as clean as the currently legal AdBlue or Bluetec diesels and performance and mpg should be about the same.
But this would be expensive. It is so much easier to do on the assembly line when the car is manufactured.
Presumably, performance and mpg will suffer, but only VW knows how much.
If VW decides in addition to upgrade to the urea injection system, the diesel should be as clean as the currently legal AdBlue or Bluetec diesels and performance and mpg should be about the same.
But this would be expensive. It is so much easier to do on the assembly line when the car is manufactured.
The "most generous" option would be for VW to buy back these cars at the original price paid by those individuals that bought them based on lies. Then VW must remove them from our country. What they do with them once they are removed is their problem, not ours. By the way, I did not buy a VW diesel and have no stake in this fight other than breathing the air VW has poisoned. We need to take back our country before the corporations run (ruin?) everything.
7
Buy back the cars at the original price...? What further kind of environmental damage can we expect from that? When no one is willing to buy a "tainted" vehicle, what then -- send them to a 3rd world country with even less regulatory/environmental oversight? No, I think VW must fix the cars AND compensate the owners in some fashion. The damage to the environment is a matter for the courts (see BP oil spill).
As for "take back our country before the corporations run/ruin everything..." Too late, I'm afraid. Way too late.
As for "take back our country before the corporations run/ruin everything..." Too late, I'm afraid. Way too late.
1
This is not a "most generous" option, it is the minimum fair offer. Anything less is a joke and disrespectful to VW's customers.
That's not enough. VW has already purposely damaged the health of thousands of people. A morbidity cost estimate of damage done should be calculated and the company should be fined a penalty of say ten to one hundred times that amount. In addition, the cars that were built should be bought back at their original prices and should be destroyed so that they cannot continue to pollute the atmosphere anywhere.
If the company bought back the cars at the fair value (based on age/mileage) as of pre-announcement, I think that would be fair approach to all involved. Alternative/choice would be to get a $ check when the car is fixed (which would also incent folks to get the fix done).
VW would then be able to sell any cars that were bought back, at presumably some diminshed value, but perhaps with extended warranty to recoup some of the cost.
There are many folks that would buy a fixed, non-polluting diesel car if the price were right.
VW would then be able to sell any cars that were bought back, at presumably some diminshed value, but perhaps with extended warranty to recoup some of the cost.
There are many folks that would buy a fixed, non-polluting diesel car if the price were right.
1
I'm with PIRG. Full purchase price refund, absolutely. And that's just compensating owners, not the environment. $18 billion in fines ($37,500 per car) for that. And criminal charges for wrongdoing.
71
Make the cars run right. If running right means that they are using more fuel, compensation is in order; and for the chronically disgruntled, offer to buy the cars back at a fair price.
10
The class action lawyers would laugh at the pittance mentioned in the article.
Compensating owners of this fraud should come closer to 5K and skip the discount on another VW. They'll have to work overtime to regain the public's trust but not on my dime.
Compensating owners of this fraud should come closer to 5K and skip the discount on another VW. They'll have to work overtime to regain the public's trust but not on my dime.
8
Sure, because the class action lawyers would only take on such cases in order to rake in millions for themselves, as has been shown time and again - the purported victims get a pittance while the trial lawyers wallow in big, fat settlements. That's hardly justice.
I am not only shocked and deceived I am mad. I purchased a VW diesel Golf just ovr a month ago. I wanted a car that was good for the environment. We researched the car and resale value. We decided to put a lrger downpayment on the car to have equity in it. Potentially I would trade it next year if I wanted something different. We now have a car that is not safe for the environment and has a significant loss in resale value. All the equity we put in is lost. What bothers me the most is there was absolutely no disclosure of the investigation during the sale process. We would have used that information to make an informed decision. So we now have a "new Lemon diesel" that lost $4000. in value just driving off the lot. How can VW compensate for the lack of disclosure during new sales amid the investigation? Just curious how healthy is it to drive a VW diesel with the seats down and direct flow of trunk emissions? Many questions come to mind as a new VW diesel owner but the lack of disclosure seems to be the most deceitful in the new car process.
MB
MB
17
VW should buy it back immediately. Then, you should replace it with a Lexus hybrid if you want a "peppy" high mileage car. My Lexus CT 200h is the best car I've ever owned.
There should be no intrusion of exhaust emissions into the passenger area, or the trunk. It only exhausts to the outside. If there is any smell of it, (highly unlikely for a brand new vehicle), it is a defect that should be corrected, under warranty of course.
It will be bad for everyone following you, people living near the roads and freeways where you drive. That's the problem with dumping emissions to the atmosphere. Hard to track and follow.
It will be bad for everyone following you, people living near the roads and freeways where you drive. That's the problem with dumping emissions to the atmosphere. Hard to track and follow.
1
Hi Mary
I purchased my 2015 Golf sportwagon TDI on SATURDAY, and the news broke MONDAY. I am very frustrated with the response from the dealership thus far. "Just keep driving and loving your car". "it will be a minor fix". "Your engine isn't affected". That one I am trying to get in writing...ha. You can't tell me they didn't know on Saturday this was happening!!! I feel so deceived. I have always been a VW fan..this is my third vehicle with them. I paid a premium price for the fuel economy/performance and clean/green vehicle. So disheartened and worried about my investment in a $40,000 vehicle (Canada pricing).
RD
I purchased my 2015 Golf sportwagon TDI on SATURDAY, and the news broke MONDAY. I am very frustrated with the response from the dealership thus far. "Just keep driving and loving your car". "it will be a minor fix". "Your engine isn't affected". That one I am trying to get in writing...ha. You can't tell me they didn't know on Saturday this was happening!!! I feel so deceived. I have always been a VW fan..this is my third vehicle with them. I paid a premium price for the fuel economy/performance and clean/green vehicle. So disheartened and worried about my investment in a $40,000 vehicle (Canada pricing).
RD
I have a 2015 Volkswagen Jetta TDI that my wife and I raved about until the day we learned about this mess. I don't want the trade-in value of the car the day before the scandal broke, or after. That's not compensation for the damage that was done here--that's simply getting what the CAR is worth. I want the full purchase price back, no more no less.
And then I'll buy a Honda, and I can promise you that nobody in my family will ever purchase another VW as long as I live.
And then I'll buy a Honda, and I can promise you that nobody in my family will ever purchase another VW as long as I live.
81
My sentiments exactly. I bought a Passat TDI in June, and was quite happy with it until a week ago. Now I feel like an enemy of the environment. I feel I've been duped. My alternative choice was a Honda--a brand my wife has driven for decades. VW should establish restitution in the form of the purchase price refund, and let former owners seek replacements from (one hopes) more honest car companies.
Would you buy a Ford after the Firestone fiasco? How about GM after the ignition key defect? You realize that Honda owes a share of Takata, right? How do you feel about inflating fuel economy statistics- should that issue remove Ford, Hyundai and Kia from the shopping list?
The lesson here is not that the recently discovered behavior by VW is new or uncommon, only that this most recent example is much more sophisticated than past efforts by GM, Ford, and Chrysler to achieve the same goal.
See: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/24/business/international/volkswagen-test...
-Michael
The lesson here is not that the recently discovered behavior by VW is new or uncommon, only that this most recent example is much more sophisticated than past efforts by GM, Ford, and Chrysler to achieve the same goal.
See: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/24/business/international/volkswagen-test...
-Michael
No, I wouldn't buy a Ford because of the Pinto (I was already there before the Firestone deal). Correct, I would not purchase a GM because of the ignition issue coverup. And yes, I'd have second thoughts about Hyundai and Kia for exactly the reason you cite.
So actually, the "lesson here" is that you do try your best to reward responsible behavior with your wallet, and myself and my family try to do just that--albeit it does sadly put you in a position of choosing the lesser of numerous evils from time to time.
But there is something about this VW fraud that is especially important for people to remember. I doubt that Ford, or GM, or Takata set out with the explicit goal of killing people, at least I hope not. Sure enough their faulty products led to deaths and they then chose not to own up to those faults, but I doubt there was a pre-meditated intent to kill people from the design phase. In the VW case, what I find so incredibly egregious is that they did just that. They knew, rather precisely I imagine, the impact that this crime would have before they even put the product on the road, and they just didn't care. This is sort of the difference between manslaughter and first degree murder, in my mind. Cold, calculated, and pre-meditated.
So actually, the "lesson here" is that you do try your best to reward responsible behavior with your wallet, and myself and my family try to do just that--albeit it does sadly put you in a position of choosing the lesser of numerous evils from time to time.
But there is something about this VW fraud that is especially important for people to remember. I doubt that Ford, or GM, or Takata set out with the explicit goal of killing people, at least I hope not. Sure enough their faulty products led to deaths and they then chose not to own up to those faults, but I doubt there was a pre-meditated intent to kill people from the design phase. In the VW case, what I find so incredibly egregious is that they did just that. They knew, rather precisely I imagine, the impact that this crime would have before they even put the product on the road, and they just didn't care. This is sort of the difference between manslaughter and first degree murder, in my mind. Cold, calculated, and pre-meditated.
If VW opts for a software fix to correct the problem then the warranty will need to be lengthened significantly because the current emissions components were probably designed to only work part time, at best. Consequently, working full time the system's life will be shorter than owners have a right to expect. I'm thinking 10 years and 200,000 miles minimum.
13
Well you are making an unwarranted assumption. That being the engineers involved in the design of the emissions components were part of the conspiracy. It is possible but unlikely since the fewer who actually knew what was being done the safer for them. Now an extended warranty is highly probable it is cheap and somewhat effective.
1
Porsche several years ago discovered a serious machining flaw in a number of their engines. The flaw was repairable but required some disassembly. Porsche decided to replace the customer's engine complete with the exception of the a/c compressor. Perhaps VW could give their customer's a choice to take a new diesel or a new gas engine and a new engine warranty. Sure, they will also get some type of cash settlement, but for many they have 50,000 miles ore more on their car. Getting a new engine and a new warranty should take care of the diminished value problems. This approach should eliminate doubts on the emissions as these new engines will be thoroughly tested prior to delivery. Dealerships don't have EPA grade emissions testing equipment and who knows how well the thousands of different mechanics adhere to VW instructions? The amount of the cash settlement should be at least the diesel premium the owners paid. These actions total up to a big number but they substantially make the owners hold. I would expect this approach as far better than giving hundreds of millions of dollars to their attorneys Kirkland and Ellis and the throng of plaintiff attorneys which grows larger each day.
2
There would be no practical way to switch in a gas engine into a TDI.
I don't want to get too technical here, but it is usually very difficult to retrofit a different powerplant on a car unless there is some provision for it. VW and its brands have been gradually moving to a system of modular platforms where this can be made possible, but in general it is not as easy as it may seem.
Engine, transmission, exhaust system . emissions treatment system, within harness, fuel tank system ... It is all tightly integrated together. The labor cost for all that would be huge.
Engine, transmission, exhaust system . emissions treatment system, within harness, fuel tank system ... It is all tightly integrated together. The labor cost for all that would be huge.
Volkswagen won't be ordered to reimburse anyone. The fix won't be worse than the EPA numbers they advertised. After all they didn't defeat the emissions limits during testing. And in all likeliness the fix will be to minimally reduce fuel economy during normal driving while greatly reducing power available, however, when power is needed, fuel economy will be greatly reduced, probably less than a minute in most cases, and power will be greatly increased. In all likelihood no new sensors will be needed and this will be a software upgrade they do either by changing out a chip or hopefully just upgrading it like an iPhone.
5
You have no way of knowing this. If the fix was an ECU update they would have done it years ago when they knew teams were looking into it. They would have made the change and said, ah it was a glitch. They didn't, so the fix is most likely not simple.
2
Dream on. It's not the numbers from emission testing that VW needs to take of. VW needs to deal with the fact that they committed criminal acts, fraud and deceived their customers. VW is going to liable for so much that the German government may have to step in to protect their future.
VW is in a lot of trouble.No reflash is going to save them from liabilities. VW will experience the greatest dollar amount for any automobile scandal.
VW is in a lot of trouble.No reflash is going to save them from liabilities. VW will experience the greatest dollar amount for any automobile scandal.
It will be a flash program update, but lawyers will extract money no matter what.
1
Yes, let's just totally ignore the question of what to do with owners who are leasing their cars, or making payments on them. The value of the vehicle, even the day before the news broke (and when was that, anyway?) may be much less than what it costs them to get out of their contract or note. Even NYT readers don't always pay cash for their cars.
It's the same situation confronted by drivers whose vehicles are a total loss after an accident that was not their fault. The responsible party's insurance company will, probably after some lowball offers, compensate them for the value of their car. But what do they do with the funds, if not all the money goes to their lender? They don't want a 4-year-old used vehicle with dubious history; they took good care of their car, and planned on keeping it another six years. They may not have the cash or credit to start over with another new car.
Next article, explain how this works in the real world.
It's the same situation confronted by drivers whose vehicles are a total loss after an accident that was not their fault. The responsible party's insurance company will, probably after some lowball offers, compensate them for the value of their car. But what do they do with the funds, if not all the money goes to their lender? They don't want a 4-year-old used vehicle with dubious history; they took good care of their car, and planned on keeping it another six years. They may not have the cash or credit to start over with another new car.
Next article, explain how this works in the real world.
13
How many cars are there on the market with similar acceleration and fuel economy? Okay I don't know but basic physics and common sense tells you that you can't be fuel efficient and sporty. If you accelerate a lot, you're also gonna be braking a lot. If you go faster there is more air resistance. Finally the engine will have a specific gear and rpm where it works most efficiently. All this determines miles per gallon (or kilometers per liter for the rest of the world) and that's physics. Many drivers probably had a feeling the cars specifications were too good to be true and it turns out they were right. I don't have sympathy for their overly high expectations and I don't think they should be compensated. If you wanna help the environment drive slower and accelerate less. Now you own the car that was advertised.
4
Easily one of the dumbest things anyone has said (and on the internet that's impressive). So in your head if someone wants a fun car that gets good gas mileage, found a car that fits the bill they should have known better and not bought it because their expectations are too high?
You know nothing about how anyone is driving them and your solution is accelerate less? Wow.
The people that bought the car were lied too. It's really very simple. Fraud is a serious accusation and VW admitted to it.
You know nothing about how anyone is driving them and your solution is accelerate less? Wow.
The people that bought the car were lied too. It's really very simple. Fraud is a serious accusation and VW admitted to it.
3
As a diesel Golf owner, I would be satisfied with VW buying my car back for the price I paid. The difference between the original sale price and what an owner's car is worth now is dependent on age & mileage and thereby something of a form of damages. I would want to be able to exercise this option after driving the car with whatever fix the company proposes. We don't know what sort effect it will have on power or mileage yet.
I would not be happy with getting 100 bucks and free oil changes for life, w hile a class-action lawyer walks away with millions.
I would not be happy with getting 100 bucks and free oil changes for life, w hile a class-action lawyer walks away with millions.
25
It's not only the VW owners who need to be compensated but also the rest of the population who have had to breathe in the emissions.
55
Does the quest for unearned money never cease in our modern world? The likely immeasurable individual exposure would be worth what?
That means everybody driving a SUV should pay us too, because they have lower emissions requirements than a car. And don't even get me started on heavy duty trucks or ships!
Frankly, the slight additional emissions from half a million cars (3% of annual sales, or < 0.2% of total car fleet) is less than a drop in the bucket of the total emissions for the nation. We could compensate for the emissions if half the people who are upset skipped one trip to the store.
Increased emissions are the real problem here, it is the cold, rational decision making to cheat the rules. There is a reason crimes of passion have lesser penalties. This is the exact opposite - lots of smart people sat in conference rooms and decided to lie, cheat and then spent money paying other smart people trying to figure out how to do it. I want to deter this kind of crime way more than I want to try deterring any addict.
Frankly, the slight additional emissions from half a million cars (3% of annual sales, or < 0.2% of total car fleet) is less than a drop in the bucket of the total emissions for the nation. We could compensate for the emissions if half the people who are upset skipped one trip to the store.
Increased emissions are the real problem here, it is the cold, rational decision making to cheat the rules. There is a reason crimes of passion have lesser penalties. This is the exact opposite - lots of smart people sat in conference rooms and decided to lie, cheat and then spent money paying other smart people trying to figure out how to do it. I want to deter this kind of crime way more than I want to try deterring any addict.
4
Nothing less than a class action suit on behalf of all of the several billion human inhabitants on earth, for starters.
The only appropriate punishment for a corporation knowingly and deliberately violating is suspending or revoking its license to do business.
27
Really??? How about jail for those involved instead since if they can't do business nobody gets anything.
Leased a Passat TDI four months ago. Will VW take back the leased TDIs?
4
Not willingly. And don't hold your breath.
1
Perhaps you should hold your breath, at least while driving.
1
No mention of how long all this is going to take. Yes I bought my car because it was advertised as a "clean" car. I feel cheated and stuck with a lemon. I want full compensation so I can buy a car that might not pollute as much. Can I believe any car manufacturer?
6
Any discussion of compensating owners should also note compensation to non-owners who are the ones who have been impacted prior to this revelation. The reason why diesel emission standards exist is because the particulates they produce create asthma and kill people. By cheating these standards VW is directly responsible for hospital visits and deaths which drivers of their cars having unknowingly helped cause. Should VW compensate owners, sure they need to make these people whole for their losses (which started the day of the announcement and to date are mostly limited to people that are actively trying to sell their cars). That should be a fraction of their payments in this case though and to suggest that the amount they set aside is to compensate drivers is a bit silly in this case.
3
This cheating scandal is an aberration on an other wise well run and sound corporation. I appreciated the fact the CEO fell on the ceremonial sword. The company now must face it's future with the knowledge that it has stained it's reputation.
I have owned two VW's in the last 15 years, they were excellent automobiles, but they were gas. I am disappointed in the firm, I would have expected more from them.
I have owned two VW's in the last 15 years, they were excellent automobiles, but they were gas. I am disappointed in the firm, I would have expected more from them.
7
"This cheating scandal is an aberration on an other wise well run and sound corporation." That's utterly ridiculous. It's analogous to "Aside from that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?".
What VW did was commit a massive fraud, duping many people like me who care about not wrecking the planet and poisoning those behind us. This reminds me of the Bernard Madoff Ponzi scheme, except Madoff's crime "only" involved money. This crime involves peoples' health and lives. NOx is the cause of premature death in many, which is why the standards are so stringent.
What VW did was commit a massive fraud, duping many people like me who care about not wrecking the planet and poisoning those behind us. This reminds me of the Bernard Madoff Ponzi scheme, except Madoff's crime "only" involved money. This crime involves peoples' health and lives. NOx is the cause of premature death in many, which is why the standards are so stringent.
3
Herr Doktor Professor Winterkorn reportedly fell on the $67 million severance package. No swords were involved, ceremonial or otherwise.
1
The 2013 VW Passat TDI brochure I have kept promotes the automobile's fuel economy, performance and possessing "clean diesel" technology. It has none of these. I bought this car based on decit and deception on the part of VW.
I want a full refund of the purchase price and damges, "release the dogs"!
I want a full refund of the purchase price and damges, "release the dogs"!
27
Fuel economy for most owners is better than test figures given by the EPA. Be carful how much you spend on lawyers it could bite you.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=32617&id=32615
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=32617&id=32615
And what of those Audi diesel cars not yet (and I emphasize yet) caught in this cheating scandal? Everytime I get into my Q5 TDI Clean Diesel, I wonder whether I am spewing more toxic emissions in to the environment. I bought the car for its reduced environmental impact and the thought that diesel was going to be here for some time.
2
SUVs are considered trucks by the EPA for emissions -- and the EPA's diesel truck emissions standards are laughably low. So it's likely that your Q5 is able to pass these minimal standards without the software cheat VW used on it's TDI cars. At least as far as we know to date.
Use RICO, triple damages. All officers' and the board's personal wealth should be confiscated. Imprison the board. They must buy back the affected cars at double the original price paid. Publically fire on television each and every executive and claw back every penny ever paid them. Endless lawsuits!
Remove all profit and destroy the financial and personal lives of the decision makers. Then hand the company to someone else.
Remove all profit and destroy the financial and personal lives of the decision makers. Then hand the company to someone else.
26
Aside from the fact that the "officers and board['s]" are likely mainly foreign nationals, there is no basis in the law - or even the concept of justice - for seizing the entirety of a person's personal wealth, however earned, as punishment for wrongful conduct. Their homes, previous earnings, money they received from their mother's estate, savings, kid's savings, whatever... the whole thing, huh? We don't even do that to convicted terrorists and mass murderers. Why not save the overblown outrage for something that actually killed people not just violated their trust.
why be so modest in punishment: execute all officers and board members and confiscate and sell the company to the Chinese.
And what about the public stock holders? You want to destroy them as well. Just put the guilty in prison, that is plenty. Leave those who were not involved out of it especially the poor stock holder. Endless lawsuits only make lawyers rich, you one of them?
Doesn't the U.S. and Germany have an extradition agreement? Winterkorn should be sitting in a federal jail, along with every other person in the criminal upper management of VW. Forget trying to prosecute Edward Snowden, hero of the first amendment, and put these stinking thieves, liars, and hucksters in jail where they belong. Seize all their assets and distribute them to everyone cheated by the company that tried to end this planet for our children so they could sell a few flipping cars.
5
And how will they compensate the global community for the pollution these cars spewed out, all while giving the impression that these vehicles were relatively low polluters?
7
Last time there was a gas crunch people were paying 5 figures for a 1980s or 90s diesel (benz or volvo) w/ no pretense at performance or environmental sensitivity. I am sure VW values will recover OK but the company's depth of duplicity is still breathtaking.
3
The question you pose is, what does Volkswagen need to do to restore the trust of its customers.
It's unlikely that Volkswagen will ever restore that trust. People bought those diesel cars, by and large, because they promised a cleaner driving experience. And instead, Volkswagen was selling dirtier, rather than cleaner, cars. Why would anyone ever trust that company again?
But, if this situation is handled properly, it shouldn't matter one bit what Volkswagen decides to do or not to do.
The question that you really should be posing is this: What should the US government do to undo Volkswagen's damage? First, they should force the company to buy back the cars at original retail value, as compensation for making fools out of those customers. Next, they should fine the heck out of them, to compensate for the damage to the environment, and to ensure that no company goes down this road again.
If that means a financially bankrupt Volkswagen, well, that would be totally appropriate, given that the company has already proven its moral bankruptcy.
It's unlikely that Volkswagen will ever restore that trust. People bought those diesel cars, by and large, because they promised a cleaner driving experience. And instead, Volkswagen was selling dirtier, rather than cleaner, cars. Why would anyone ever trust that company again?
But, if this situation is handled properly, it shouldn't matter one bit what Volkswagen decides to do or not to do.
The question that you really should be posing is this: What should the US government do to undo Volkswagen's damage? First, they should force the company to buy back the cars at original retail value, as compensation for making fools out of those customers. Next, they should fine the heck out of them, to compensate for the damage to the environment, and to ensure that no company goes down this road again.
If that means a financially bankrupt Volkswagen, well, that would be totally appropriate, given that the company has already proven its moral bankruptcy.
55
"First, they should force the company to buy back the cars at original retail value, as compensation for making fools out of those customers."
I wholly disagree. The issue is not whether customers look like fools. Buying a car is not the purchase of an image, or identity, dignity, self-respect, social standing, or perceived intelligence.
Making a car an extension of one's own self and identity is not going to make a court case against any product manufacturer. VW marketing may make owners think they will be instantly cool and have increased cache in society, but there is no express or implied warranty for any of that. It is all perception. If that were the case, everyone who got a divorce after buying a family sedan would be suing the manufacturer because the car did not hold their family together.
I wholly disagree. The issue is not whether customers look like fools. Buying a car is not the purchase of an image, or identity, dignity, self-respect, social standing, or perceived intelligence.
Making a car an extension of one's own self and identity is not going to make a court case against any product manufacturer. VW marketing may make owners think they will be instantly cool and have increased cache in society, but there is no express or implied warranty for any of that. It is all perception. If that were the case, everyone who got a divorce after buying a family sedan would be suing the manufacturer because the car did not hold their family together.
1
We live in a low-information country and people have short memories (Times readers excepted of course). The next generation won't remember this at all. People bought Fords and Chevys after the Pinto and the Vega, and put Firestone tires on them. If I were a VW exec, I would create a new brand and not give it any VW association at all. One model for that approach is the Scion; most people don't know that it is a Toyota.
Mr. Neubecker writes: "But if Volkswagen did go with lowball cash offers to car owners....", suggesting that this option is an undesirable one for owners (vs. the buyback). That's not necessarily true. As I wrote in my Letter to the Editor (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/25/opinion/vw-emissions-scandal-cheating-..., the fine is expected to be in the billions. Indeed, the NYT has estimated 18 billion. Suppose half of that were designated to compensate the owners, as a cash incentive for them to get their vehicles fixed. That's $9B/500K = $18,000/owner. $18K each (plus you get to keep your car) is hardly lowball. And with such a substantial incentive, owners would be motivated to get the emission problem fixed.
Another use of the money, which has not been discussed, might be to retrofit a urea injection system onto the engines, which some writers have said would enable the engine to meet emissions standards and also restore performance. A commenter on another NYT article on the subject (“Volkswagen Stock Falls as Automaker Tries to Contain Fallout”), Hugh from Los Angeles, wrote: "Audi, Porsche, BMW and Mercedes offer larger displacement diesel cars and SUVs that appear legitimately to meet EPA standards. These vehicles all use a urea injection system to reduce nitrous oxide, the pollutant at issue in this VW scandal. VW's offending 4-cylinder diesels are not equipped with urea injection, which would have added complexity and cost to the vehicles."
Another use of the money, which has not been discussed, might be to retrofit a urea injection system onto the engines, which some writers have said would enable the engine to meet emissions standards and also restore performance. A commenter on another NYT article on the subject (“Volkswagen Stock Falls as Automaker Tries to Contain Fallout”), Hugh from Los Angeles, wrote: "Audi, Porsche, BMW and Mercedes offer larger displacement diesel cars and SUVs that appear legitimately to meet EPA standards. These vehicles all use a urea injection system to reduce nitrous oxide, the pollutant at issue in this VW scandal. VW's offending 4-cylinder diesels are not equipped with urea injection, which would have added complexity and cost to the vehicles."
11
"VW's offending 4-cylinder diesels are not equipped with urea injection, which would have added complexity and cost to the vehicles."
Not true! I have a 2015 TDI Jetta, which uses AdBlue and is also included in the vehicles that have these problems.
Not true! I have a 2015 TDI Jetta, which uses AdBlue and is also included in the vehicles that have these problems.
1
As typical, you are only thinking of the United States. There are at least 11,000,000 of these vehicles. Translation over 198 Billion.
Remember the Wall Street meltdown ?? The courts ruled that any ruling must take into account collateral damage to the industry. Simply put, this isn't going to happen.
Remember the Wall Street meltdown ?? The courts ruled that any ruling must take into account collateral damage to the industry. Simply put, this isn't going to happen.
Take out the back seat so there will be a place for the 5-gallon urea tank?
1
Another major problem is that now people know these cars produce too much pollution, various states may do different tests on these vehicles and thus failing these vehicles at inspection time. Failed inspection and you cannot re register your vehicle for the next year. This could pull a massive amount of vehicles off the road causing untold inconvenience to owners all across the country.
6
A failed inspection just puts your car into a repair shop, not off the road. Incentive to fix the VW deceptive software is built into the car's inspection schedule.
How long before other diesel engines (like the ones in larger Audis) are implicated as well? What about the reputational damage to all diesel cars from this, whether made by Volkswagen or not? Can you tell I bought an Audi A6 TDI?
1
We know. We heard all the way out here when the resale value of your Audi hit the ground! By the way, how much for an Audi A6 these days?
In the short run, these cars should come off the road at VW's expense. VW should offer rental car vouchers to all owners.
Later, buyouts should also recognize what owners paid in sales tax, extended warrantees, snow tires purchased, custom roof racks, etc...
Later, buyouts should also recognize what owners paid in sales tax, extended warrantees, snow tires purchased, custom roof racks, etc...
4
Interesting quandary. Then there's the technical question: which vehicles are ACTUALLY effected. A friend of mine owns a 1995 Audi A3 diesel. That car has a spout for AdBlue, the urea compound that reduces emissions, and I believe the displacement of that engine is either 1.6 or 1.8 liters. The four-cylinder VW and Audi diesels are two-liter displacement, and many of those VW cars have no input for AdBlue.
Some clarity should be sought here.
Some clarity should be sought here.
affected engine is a TDI unit made in 2009 -2014 for Jetta, Beetle, Golf and Audi A3, and Passat for years 2014-2015. You can find the code for your engine in your owner's manual - if it contains letters "CFFB" - it is the "cheating chip" one. Little research does wonders.
2
Pre 2009 diesels not part.
The TDI cars have an AdBlue cannister in the trunk. It is designed to supply the urea compound for "up to 10,000 miles of normal driving."
The new TDIs have 10,000 mile service intervals, and if the stuff runs out a warning is lit on the dash and engine operation is supposed to be reduced.
Whenever I shut off my 2015 (as was true with my 2012 TDI) Passat TDI the sound of the AdBlue pump can be heard.
I don't think, that even if my car is putting out 40X the NOx that it is supposed to be, that it is even close to emitting as much as the average vehicle on the road.
More and more big rigs on the road use the AdBlue system and it shows in cleaner, better smelling highway driving.
The new TDIs have 10,000 mile service intervals, and if the stuff runs out a warning is lit on the dash and engine operation is supposed to be reduced.
Whenever I shut off my 2015 (as was true with my 2012 TDI) Passat TDI the sound of the AdBlue pump can be heard.
I don't think, that even if my car is putting out 40X the NOx that it is supposed to be, that it is even close to emitting as much as the average vehicle on the road.
More and more big rigs on the road use the AdBlue system and it shows in cleaner, better smelling highway driving.
How will Volkswagen compensate those who breathed the exhaust from these vehicles? Those of us who did are the real victims!
5
Bruce the short answer to that is you can file a nuisance claim in court and prove that air you breathed was contaminated by VW and you personally suffered damages. You would hire a doctor to testify in his medical opinion that the cause of your sickness was primarily attributable to VW and not pollution from coal fired plants in a neighboring state. Of course you will lose this lawsuit because you can't prove any of this. That is why there is an EPA with a statutory clean air act. The EPA can enforce penalties and perhaps compensate the public generally. You my friend personally are probably SOL.
2
If you ever drove behind an older model auto you are breathing just as much pollution as with these newer diesel cheaters. Do you want compensation for all the older gas guzzlers that are still on the road from all the companies that produced them? Stop the hysteria please.
2
If you could convince a court that VW was a corrupt and criminal organization, you might be able to collect triple damages under civil RICO.
61
At last, an honest critic, making clear that bankruptcy is the true goal.
Score another one for RICO. Right! I'm happy to be part of that lawsuit.
I don't think RICO is legally necessary to collect treble damages in this case.
Punitive damages typically rely on there being harm exceeding the economic injury. In this case, VW's deception produced air pollution which would elevate disease risk.
Punitive damages typically rely on there being harm exceeding the economic injury. In this case, VW's deception produced air pollution which would elevate disease risk.
For a modern company to engage is such a reckless fraud is astonishing and they need to be severely punished. Anything less would be a joke.