In a NYT opinion piece, there's discussion of Volkswagen trying to claw back compensation paid to the Volkswagen executives involved in this debacle. As officers of a corporation, even a foreign corporation, a cause of action for breach of fiduciary duty would seem to do the trick. Of course, the amount of any damage award would be up to a jury unless there was a settlement.
These GREEDY CEOs only understand money, so make them pay by forcing them to refund the full price of each affected VW car. We should not be surprised by the greed being exhibited by these companies, the most recent one being the VILE Martin Shriekli because the Bible tells us in the end days, men will be lovers of money, lovers of self, greedy, vile corrupters
When one calculates the adverse health effects from the particulates and NOx that VW's diesel engines emitted, prison time seems appropriate. Reasonable acceptable air models will allow one to calculate the number of extra deaths that likely arose from the extra contamination. At the very least the culpability is for 2nd degree murder (reckless disregard for the danger one knowingly creates). Since some of those deaths occurred in the U.S., he should be extradited here to face justice for his crimes.
Will the man or woman who designed the software to trick the EPA ever face criminal charges? I doubt it. The company will pay a big fine and make the problem go away. I believe the CEO may not have known about this fraud, but as CEO he should have known. If the real criminal would stand up and admit what was done, the CEO would not have to resign.
The impact of this deception goes beyond the millions who purchased these tainted vehicles. It affects everyone who is employed by VW, world-wide. Loss of good jobs is inevitable. For those assuming they have no choice but to deceive, please think again. The cost goes up with every passing second.
The damage is far bigger than just one fraud at one car company. Volkswagen has damaged trust in German engineering and Germany's reputation as a country + economy committed to reduce CO2 pollution. Many countries are looking at the 'Energiewende' to see if economic development and sustainable, renewable energy can go hand-in-hand.
The only positive aspect is that at least Volkswagen is acknowledging the fraud. But a resignation seems to be an easy way out.
The only positive aspect is that at least Volkswagen is acknowledging the fraud. But a resignation seems to be an easy way out.
2
I expected that Martin Winterkorn will follow the same path as Ono of Firestone did in 2000 when a dozen or so we're killed by bursting of Firestone tyres of USVs of Ford motors , more of them in M.E,particularly GCC. I wrote a note on the case of that tragedy,published in Time. My note was published in Time,Oct.23,2000 under the caption," Acts of an Ostrich". Unfortunately much worse has happened in case of VW that has shaken trust and confidence of customers in German brands.
2
Winterkorn either knew about the emissions cheating or didn't know about it.
Either alternative is not good for a CEO. He had to go.
Either alternative is not good for a CEO. He had to go.
3
He belongs in jail along with many of our (i.e., America's) CEOs. I wonder if Germany will have the political will to put him there. When will we ever get it?
1
Well, why would VW limit this deception to one diesel model? It worked so well, perhaps they used it on regular gasoline-engine cars.......
2
Many commenters are certain that the CEO knew, but I'm not so sure. The CEO didn't write the code or test the code, and in a huge corporation, it's likely he never met the people that did.
The way rewards and penalties for good and bad performance work in large corporations with many layers of management, news tends to get filtered and sugar-coated and problems not reported up through management. The incentive is to report good news. If the boss thinks everything is fine, bonuses, raises and promotions are more likely to follow.
The CEO may have set the culture that allowed this to happen, but wasn't necessarily aware of the details. Engineers were likely under pressure to do something difficult or impossible, and design a car with good performance, good economy, and low emissions at a low cost. For a time, it appeared they succeeded.
I expect it will be difficult for VW to fix this. If it was easy to make it work right, the bypass likely never would have been put in in the first place. This diesel, unlike many others, doesn't use urea to help clean the exhaust. Here I thought they found a better way, but apparently not. Instead of urea they use a Nitrogen Oxide trap, that's apparently bypassed much of the time. Engaging this may reduce performance and mileage. Using this trap full-time might even reduce its useful life, meaning more frequent maintenance or replacement. I test-drove one of these cars and liked its performance, but now feel relieved I chose not to buy it.
The way rewards and penalties for good and bad performance work in large corporations with many layers of management, news tends to get filtered and sugar-coated and problems not reported up through management. The incentive is to report good news. If the boss thinks everything is fine, bonuses, raises and promotions are more likely to follow.
The CEO may have set the culture that allowed this to happen, but wasn't necessarily aware of the details. Engineers were likely under pressure to do something difficult or impossible, and design a car with good performance, good economy, and low emissions at a low cost. For a time, it appeared they succeeded.
I expect it will be difficult for VW to fix this. If it was easy to make it work right, the bypass likely never would have been put in in the first place. This diesel, unlike many others, doesn't use urea to help clean the exhaust. Here I thought they found a better way, but apparently not. Instead of urea they use a Nitrogen Oxide trap, that's apparently bypassed much of the time. Engaging this may reduce performance and mileage. Using this trap full-time might even reduce its useful life, meaning more frequent maintenance or replacement. I test-drove one of these cars and liked its performance, but now feel relieved I chose not to buy it.
1
I've always wanted VW to explain their superior engineering in public. Power Steerings losing power and fairly new cars stalling at full speed were my experience and then there were my faulty fuel injectors that probably contributed to the words TURBO they proudly proclaim to be the pioneers of. One call to their customer service and you know this is not a company that cares about their products, once sold.
This whole scandal's just one of the disasters waiting to happen for VW.. and I hope this news doesn't sideline GM's cover up. Unless of course that's the intention of the administration to choose to release this news a few days after GM receives a 900m slap on the wrist.
This whole scandal's just one of the disasters waiting to happen for VW.. and I hope this news doesn't sideline GM's cover up. Unless of course that's the intention of the administration to choose to release this news a few days after GM receives a 900m slap on the wrist.
1
This makes a mockery of EU law and regulation.
Why did anyone in their wildest dreams think they could succeed in this deception? There appears to be 11 million pieces of evidence.
Why did anyone in their wildest dreams think they could succeed in this deception? There appears to be 11 million pieces of evidence.
1
I’m starting to think it’s an industry standard. Diesel cars nowadays are top performers even in racing series, if a top constructor like VAG (VW, Audi owner) cannot marry good performance with regulatory emission limits I think very few others can.
1
I suppose he will automatically chant the German defence:
I was only following orders
I was only following orders
1
I don't understand why people lie and cheat. In this day and age of technology, don't they know they'll be caught eventually? And, those windows between between the attempt to get away with something and being caught are getting shorter because technology is getting better. In this case, the "benefits" hurt so many people and have very possibly ruined this brand -- because what is a brand after all but trust. Consumers pay for trust. This fractured trust has trickled down to all of us who thought we knew what we were buying, but also to the brands business partners like the ad agencies, the talent in the commercials that have been pulled, the dealerships who will lose millions...not to mention what they've done to the environment. And for what? Simply to feed their greed and their egos.
2
This is a good example of the high cost of the Elite.
"We", thanks to rotten "unions" and Corporatism, really have little to say about design, engineering, and honesty in most things we make.
How many Americans know anything about what Obama's "Auto Committee" and the uaw did to ruin the lives of U.S. autoworkers?
"We", thanks to rotten "unions" and Corporatism, really have little to say about design, engineering, and honesty in most things we make.
How many Americans know anything about what Obama's "Auto Committee" and the uaw did to ruin the lives of U.S. autoworkers?
You're blaming unions for this?
The problem with the software to take emissions tests in Germany complies with all ace high orders without questioning the and when caught in felagrante they always obey they were following orders
1
Martin Winterkorn needs to take the next three or four levels of managers out the door with him and face prosecution by the law and persecution by an international citizenry for this massively huge international 'conspiracy to defraud' perpetrated by them...
The VW board of directors should fire all the managers, all the supervisors and all of the programmers involved - sweep the house clean - and, to public announcements, discontinue their diesel-powered automobile lines. They could then appear sincere in apology...
The VW board of directors should fire all the managers, all the supervisors and all of the programmers involved - sweep the house clean - and, to public announcements, discontinue their diesel-powered automobile lines. They could then appear sincere in apology...
The VW CEO regrets "irregularities." I guess "mistakes were made." And if "anyone was offended," an apology will be issued. Now that all that is settled, we can move on to the next example of fraud.
2
So will he be prosecuted and Jailed for 25 years for fraud?
1
The new game in town; Greed and deception by corporate executives and then looking so injured when caught;,i my opinion that is.
2
About fifty years ago there was a study about people's honesty that found that one-third were basically honest, one-third dishonest and one-third semi-honest in that they turned dishonest as long as they knew they could get away with it.
It looks as if many folks at VW are in the second or third category. How sad this is for the world. We plod ahead with all these implications.
It looks as if many folks at VW are in the second or third category. How sad this is for the world. We plod ahead with all these implications.
2
Since these cars are completely unable to meet emissions standards, and the performance is going to be so poor with this software removed so that no one will want to drive them, the only solution I see is for governments to require Volkswagon to refund the purchase price of these millions of cars and send them all to the scrap yard. This of course will bankrupt VW and drive them out of business. I don't have a problem with that. This is not a case of using a cheap crappy ignition switch and then quietly swapping it out when you learn that some of your customers have died. This is complete, intentional, and willful disregard for your customers and the planet. Our corporate titans need to be taught that there are consequences, other than resigning with tens of millions of dollars of bonuses, for their actions.
Also, the closing of the doors of VW and the loss of all the jobs might be a warning to workers everywhere that designing, implementing, and installing these sorts of criminal devices to evade environmental laws at the request of your masters is not acceptable. Why was there not a single employee at VW with a moral compass strong enough that for seven years, no one blew the whistle on this? That speaks volumes about the nature of corporate, VW, and German culture.
Also, the closing of the doors of VW and the loss of all the jobs might be a warning to workers everywhere that designing, implementing, and installing these sorts of criminal devices to evade environmental laws at the request of your masters is not acceptable. Why was there not a single employee at VW with a moral compass strong enough that for seven years, no one blew the whistle on this? That speaks volumes about the nature of corporate, VW, and German culture.
3
Why should all the owners of VW dealerships, and all the sales people, and all the service techs, and all the support staff lose their jobs? Don't you think that will have some bearing on our economy? More tax paying businesses that support towns folding and people out of work. The executives and software engineers that designed and installed the software are the only ones that should lose their jobs and be punished. And how is this going to impact VW owners that have current warranties and require VW parts and service for their cars?
Corporations do not commit crimes, lie, or act fraudulently, people do. It is refreshing to see a real person stand up and take responsibility for what the corporation he led did. If this practice were more widely held, we would likely see more emphasis from the top that corporations do not tolerate misfeasance or malfeasance.
A french TV investigation documentary showed that more than 40000 people die every year in France directly because of the massive number of diesel vehicles that are driven there. It shows that these death are caused both by NOx gases (NO2 mostly) and particles. Because of a lesser taxation for diesel, inherited from WWII, compared to regular gas taxation, 80% of the french people chose to buy diesel car.
Even if you take into account the catalytic exhaust pipe that lowers the amount of particles released in the atmosphere, the problem is that after two years of using a so-called "clean diesel" car, you will need to change the ceramic catalytic filter in the exhaust pipe. If not, the particle clogged device will break the engine. The cost is between $2000 to $3000, which naturally nobody want to pay. Where would indeed be the advantage of buying a diesel car if you had to pay$1000a year to change the filter? So, diesel car owners just get rid of the catalytic exhaust pipe, letting particles pollution run free from their stinking engines…The documentary shows that it has already become a booming industry called de-FAP, (FAP standing for particles filter) see (https://youtu.be/5JFprj6v37Q)
Even if you take into account the catalytic exhaust pipe that lowers the amount of particles released in the atmosphere, the problem is that after two years of using a so-called "clean diesel" car, you will need to change the ceramic catalytic filter in the exhaust pipe. If not, the particle clogged device will break the engine. The cost is between $2000 to $3000, which naturally nobody want to pay. Where would indeed be the advantage of buying a diesel car if you had to pay$1000a year to change the filter? So, diesel car owners just get rid of the catalytic exhaust pipe, letting particles pollution run free from their stinking engines…The documentary shows that it has already become a booming industry called de-FAP, (FAP standing for particles filter) see (https://youtu.be/5JFprj6v37Q)
3
Open source code is required.
Stop allowing the corporations to hide behind intellectual property.
That strains my own intellectual property.
The open-source folks are right.
Stop allowing the corporations to hide behind intellectual property.
That strains my own intellectual property.
The open-source folks are right.
How interesting that the comments linking an organization, say one that might even be as big and radical as the Unification Church, with hacking and stalking the on-board software of the world's automobiles, never see the light of day in the NYT. Someone hacking NYT, too?
THE VW guy stepped down, what did the GM Boss do......GM killed people.
1
The CEO of GM had been in place during a time when a known issue killed several people and the CEO remains in place yet the VW CEO resigns?
That goes to show you what personal accountability means in both countries.
That goes to show you what personal accountability means in both countries.
2
Isn't a boycott in order here?
1
It seems even super rule orientated systems can be infected with greed. Germany I think you owe Greece an apology.
3
I own a 2013 Volkswagen Jetta Diesel. I love the car. It gets 50 miles per gallon. It has power and speed. It is comfortable. It is the best car I have ever owned. I do not care about this so-called "scandal". It is a non-issue. Volkswagen built a great car at a great price. I can get to and from work for an entire month on a single tank of diesel gas. There is no way I will let the EPA get a hold of my car in a recall to diminish fuel economy or performance. I will let the enviro-wienies worry and fret and wet their pants about the emissions of these cars. I will continue to drive my Jetta proudly.
4
As a bitterly disappointed 15-year VW owner, I have to say that Kabuki theatre at the CEO level does absolutely nothing towards restoring my confidence in VW as an organization. Winterkorn's departure is window dressing and impresses me not at all.
If Volkswagen wants to continue to do business in the US, it is going to have to meet several requirements:
- VW is going to have to do a first-class job of communicating with owners as to how they are going to go about fixing this problem;
- any retrofit to the cars we currently own and drive has to preserve most of the qualities that led us to purchase them in the first place;
- to the extent that the cars' desirability/resale value is diminished by the retrofit, monetary compensation has to be forthcoming to prevent us, the customers, from bearing any of the cost of this deception;
- anyone in senior and engineering management who authorized this design choice has to go - now, and for cause, not into "retirement". Obviously, VW can not decimate its emission controls engineering team, since they are the only ones with any chance of fixing the problem in an acceptable fashion. But responsibility needs to rest with those actually responsible.
This is a moment when Volkswagen can either prove that it is going to be the company we thought we were doing business with or not. The substance of their response is what is going to decide that, not musical chairs in the corner office.
If Volkswagen wants to continue to do business in the US, it is going to have to meet several requirements:
- VW is going to have to do a first-class job of communicating with owners as to how they are going to go about fixing this problem;
- any retrofit to the cars we currently own and drive has to preserve most of the qualities that led us to purchase them in the first place;
- to the extent that the cars' desirability/resale value is diminished by the retrofit, monetary compensation has to be forthcoming to prevent us, the customers, from bearing any of the cost of this deception;
- anyone in senior and engineering management who authorized this design choice has to go - now, and for cause, not into "retirement". Obviously, VW can not decimate its emission controls engineering team, since they are the only ones with any chance of fixing the problem in an acceptable fashion. But responsibility needs to rest with those actually responsible.
This is a moment when Volkswagen can either prove that it is going to be the company we thought we were doing business with or not. The substance of their response is what is going to decide that, not musical chairs in the corner office.
5
At some point we must take our planet back from the automobile.
2
It's quite possible that Winterkorn (although he has reputation as a micromanager) didn't personally know of this but some individual or group of individuals within VW came up with this idea and someone at least at the division head level signed off on it. It will all be revealed because there is going to be criminal investigation in Germany. Will the damage to VW be permanent? Not really. They still make great cars. Nor is there a lot of room for self righteousness given the ignition switch problems at GM and the Takata airbag problem at several manufacturers which were known about and covered up for years.
Something is horribly wrong at Volkswagen, and at any other automotive company that has committed such acts.
With respect to Volkswagen: 11 million vehicles do not get fitted with emissions altering software without management participation and approval.
Given the technological prowess, detail orientation and R&D involvement of CEO Martin Winterkorn, it is difficult to believe that he had no inkling of this scandal.
Once again, events demonstrate that market discipline is insufficient to compel corporate honesty-- quite the contrary.
With respect to Volkswagen: 11 million vehicles do not get fitted with emissions altering software without management participation and approval.
Given the technological prowess, detail orientation and R&D involvement of CEO Martin Winterkorn, it is difficult to believe that he had no inkling of this scandal.
Once again, events demonstrate that market discipline is insufficient to compel corporate honesty-- quite the contrary.
10
Last spring I was on a race course in a VW diesel powered car. It was as quick as a gas model. A diesel VW was going to be my next street car. My dream of 50 MPG plus good performance is lost now in a quest for profit. Where goes it that thirst for more money end ?
5
I have 2 older VW diesel cars that make gas cars look like bicycles. It's good to be savvy.
So I presume that one car manufacturer's diesel engine exhaust systems is not structurally so different from another, in other words, they all probably pretty much work the same way, right? So what about other auto makers who claim the same of their diesel cars: low emissions, fuel economy, and performance? I think the most serious long-term damage is that we really probably won't trust these claims no matter who makes them.
VW just took all the driving enjoyment out of 'farfegnugen.'
VW just took all the driving enjoyment out of 'farfegnugen.'
4
Actually, the systems are different. That's why BMW and Mercedes did not have to cheat.
Yes, VW did a dishonest and bad thing. The resignation was likely inevitable, although perhaps the deposed CEO could have been useful in the internal investigation. I do feel the degree of environmental and owner outrage in the USA is overblown and reeks of self righteousness. The amount of additional NOx introduced by the USA VW vehicles is minuscule compared to that from diesel semi trucks and the like. Not to mention the way higher levels of particulate emitted by those large vehicles. Been behind a bus lately? Far more of these vehicles were sold in Europe than the USA, so the Europeans are the ones who should be most distressed. Time for Ad Blue additive in all VW diesel vehicles, not just the 6 cylinder ones. Full disclosure, I drive an Audi gas powered vehicle.
5
"I do feel the degree of environmental and owner outrage in the USA is overblown and reeks of self righteousness."
Spot on.
Spot on.
I often wondered why no Japanese car manufacturer has been able to market diesel cars in the USA. Honda wanted to, but gave up. Mazda is having tremendous delays in introducing a diesel Mazda 6.
Now I know why. Its very hard, if not impossible, to have a diesel engine car that meets the NOx standard, and yet has reasonable power and economy. That is, if you don't cheat.
In my lifetime, I have bought two VW based cars. The first was a 1985 Audi 5000 turbo. The "unintended acceleration" scandal involving the Audi 5000 destroyed its resale value. The second is my 2009 diesel Jetta. It would take a lot to get me to consider another VW product.
Now I know why. Its very hard, if not impossible, to have a diesel engine car that meets the NOx standard, and yet has reasonable power and economy. That is, if you don't cheat.
In my lifetime, I have bought two VW based cars. The first was a 1985 Audi 5000 turbo. The "unintended acceleration" scandal involving the Audi 5000 destroyed its resale value. The second is my 2009 diesel Jetta. It would take a lot to get me to consider another VW product.
8
If a 1 ton truck can produce enough to power to have the highest towing capabilities and acceleration for people to buy them with decent MPG considering the weight. Then it can be done with a car. Regulations are A LOT more forgiving on trucks. Unfortunately EPA regulations have it out for the diesel car in the States. I wonder why that is... Think think think.
How would the cars get through the NJ inspection process, which unlike the EPA does not involve putting the car on a treadmill?
1
I am not familiar with what NJ does, but if they don't test on a dynamometer, perhaps all they do is check the readiness monitors and scan for any emissions-related engine codes (all done via the OBD II port).
As an FIY, the reason you need a dyno is to apply real load to an engine as it would experience on pavement, but while keeping the car stationary. That kind of test measures emissions in a more realistic way. Reving the engine in neutral, or raising the car and letting the wheels spin freely in the air does not put any real load on the engine.
As an FIY, the reason you need a dyno is to apply real load to an engine as it would experience on pavement, but while keeping the car stationary. That kind of test measures emissions in a more realistic way. Reving the engine in neutral, or raising the car and letting the wheels spin freely in the air does not put any real load on the engine.
I think the underlying issue on this misconduct would be that they don't think why the company is socially existing?
If they would do, they should have thought about the problem caused by this misconduct and how it could affect the environment and human health.
Of course the objective of many companies is to earn profit, to grow a company in the future.
But they should think its employees and their family's happiness as a part of all the people in a society.
To do that, many company executives should think again about the reason why their companies are socially existing? how they could make contribution to its society.
If they would do, they should have thought about the problem caused by this misconduct and how it could affect the environment and human health.
Of course the objective of many companies is to earn profit, to grow a company in the future.
But they should think its employees and their family's happiness as a part of all the people in a society.
To do that, many company executives should think again about the reason why their companies are socially existing? how they could make contribution to its society.
2
This why government oversight is needed. Corporations behave badly. In the US, I look forward to a few bankers going to jail.
3
Good. Now he'll have more time for prison.
3
Bring back Fred Pietsch. Maybe he got wind of this before it was exposed and that is why he wanted Winterkorn to resign last year. (Alternately: maybe Pietsch, upset about being cast aside, tipped off someone about the fraud).
The company is utterly damaged now -- maybe Pietsch can restore it. I don't think these other guys mentioned from Porsche or Daimler are anything new. Will be seen as more of the same.
The company is utterly damaged now -- maybe Pietsch can restore it. I don't think these other guys mentioned from Porsche or Daimler are anything new. Will be seen as more of the same.
3
Recognizing a pattern of inputs and enabling controls that were normally not applied is as cynical and maleficent as I care to imagine. This is a sin of commission, not merely a cover-up. "Accepting responsibility" doesn't begin to make up for it. This greed and dishonesty had deadly consequences for completely innocent people- not in the car, not even on the road, just breathing and in the vicinity of moving automobiles.
In the marketplace, VW's behavior amounts the fraud and theft. Anyone who bought one of the affected vehicles was defrauded while the vehicle failed to perform as advertised. The value of every car affected was overstated. Even if compliance can be had with new software, value will not entirely return0. Nor will the value of the company stock, or the brand.
Whomever decided the production software should behave this way should face criminal charges. Whoever they worked for either knew or should have known. Millions of cars for over a decade is not an accident. Top to bottom, it is criminal conspiracy, abuse of public trust, and negligence at every level above those who are actually culpable. With real human deaths and disease as a consequence. It makes me sick at heart. I was formerly a fan and enthusiastic supporter. I think they've lost me for good. And I very disappointed that they got away with it so long...
In the marketplace, VW's behavior amounts the fraud and theft. Anyone who bought one of the affected vehicles was defrauded while the vehicle failed to perform as advertised. The value of every car affected was overstated. Even if compliance can be had with new software, value will not entirely return0. Nor will the value of the company stock, or the brand.
Whomever decided the production software should behave this way should face criminal charges. Whoever they worked for either knew or should have known. Millions of cars for over a decade is not an accident. Top to bottom, it is criminal conspiracy, abuse of public trust, and negligence at every level above those who are actually culpable. With real human deaths and disease as a consequence. It makes me sick at heart. I was formerly a fan and enthusiastic supporter. I think they've lost me for good. And I very disappointed that they got away with it so long...
2
Only if American CEOs would take any responsibility. Wink, wink, Donald and Carly.
3
@FT:
What do you mean? One reason why corporations exist is to better shield senior executives from the consequences of wrong-doing; theirs or others. And the bigger the corporation the better the shield. It isn't perfect. But Mitt Romney's famous quip, "... corporations are people, my friend" was inaccurate in that respect. A different system of law applies; why our American republic increasingly resembles the Roman republic during its slow decline into anarchy, paralysis and, ultimately, Caesarism.
What do you mean? One reason why corporations exist is to better shield senior executives from the consequences of wrong-doing; theirs or others. And the bigger the corporation the better the shield. It isn't perfect. But Mitt Romney's famous quip, "... corporations are people, my friend" was inaccurate in that respect. A different system of law applies; why our American republic increasingly resembles the Roman republic during its slow decline into anarchy, paralysis and, ultimately, Caesarism.
1
Do other makes of cars in the Volkswagen group have the same problems?
3
Germany recently told Greece that rules have to be respected and that there is price to pay for not doing so. The price here for VW will be around $20 minimum unless VW invests ($200Millions), sorry I meant funds a Christ Christie super pac and VW might end up paying less than $2Billions if Chris Christie is elected president.
1
A disappointing piece of news from a well respected company. I used to drive a VW once... a diesel.
Some guys wrote some code which was fradulent.
In a large company it is reasonably clear who wrote every single line of code.
Code is also tested, often by others who do not write it.
It is a process called documentation, audit trail, software testing etc. .
The guys who wrote the code did exactly what they were asked to do.
They likely had a pretty good idea it was fradulent and intended to mislead. .
Congratulations to California regulators for identifying this problem.
Bending/stretching and using imaginative interpretation of the law is called good management... pushing the envelope etc ... Executive are rewarded for this as long as you dont get caught with your hand in the cookie jar.
Liklely penalties may well be less than those for selling loose cigarettes on the street or some much offense.
Legal responses and penalties should be designed to have a strong deterrent effect while not putting the company out of business. How about they voluntarily contribute a decent chunk of change to a Global Warming Fund before being forced to do so by the law as a gesture of contrition.
Some guys wrote some code which was fradulent.
In a large company it is reasonably clear who wrote every single line of code.
Code is also tested, often by others who do not write it.
It is a process called documentation, audit trail, software testing etc. .
The guys who wrote the code did exactly what they were asked to do.
They likely had a pretty good idea it was fradulent and intended to mislead. .
Congratulations to California regulators for identifying this problem.
Bending/stretching and using imaginative interpretation of the law is called good management... pushing the envelope etc ... Executive are rewarded for this as long as you dont get caught with your hand in the cookie jar.
Liklely penalties may well be less than those for selling loose cigarettes on the street or some much offense.
Legal responses and penalties should be designed to have a strong deterrent effect while not putting the company out of business. How about they voluntarily contribute a decent chunk of change to a Global Warming Fund before being forced to do so by the law as a gesture of contrition.
6
This criminal offense deserves jail time and a very stiff fine. Similarly, the executives at GM should serve jail time and a much much higher fine than they were assessed. The first is a case of purposeful deception to promote diesel fuel -- the dirtiest among the fuels, to the American public and at a grave consequence to the environment. One that has hugely contributed to global warming. The second is a purposeful cover-up of a lethal problem, including the purposeful demeaning of family and friends who complained.
This kind of behavior can no longer be tolerated in the modern world. I trust no one in business.
This kind of behavior can no longer be tolerated in the modern world. I trust no one in business.
3
Imagine that the leaders of our largest financial institutions failed to protect against risky investment strategies or of our energy companies failed to protect against climate change, I am sure their heads would roll.
5
This story has to many things that make no sense.
How did VW keep this a secret.
Just like some people knew Bernard Madoff could not produce the profits he was reporting the engineers at the other car companies had to know VW could
not produce a car that polluted as little as they reported and I would bet they bought one and took it apart to find how VW could do it and and found out that VW was cheating.
The people at VW are not stupid so they knew the other car manufactures would find out which suggest to me the other car manufactures had to have been bought off.
What makes this story ridiculous is that VW had to know eventually their secret would come out.
Computers break down and the cars that the computers broke down would produce more pollution and someone would have noticed this and look to see
why and they would find nothing wrong and therefore would take the car apart and would find this secret.
So why did VW do this when they should have known the truth would have come out.
I think this wasn't done by them.
I can only assume this was an act of sabotage by someone either inside the company or outside and these people knew that when this became public
VW stock would go down and they could make a profit by short selling the stock.
How did VW keep this a secret.
Just like some people knew Bernard Madoff could not produce the profits he was reporting the engineers at the other car companies had to know VW could
not produce a car that polluted as little as they reported and I would bet they bought one and took it apart to find how VW could do it and and found out that VW was cheating.
The people at VW are not stupid so they knew the other car manufactures would find out which suggest to me the other car manufactures had to have been bought off.
What makes this story ridiculous is that VW had to know eventually their secret would come out.
Computers break down and the cars that the computers broke down would produce more pollution and someone would have noticed this and look to see
why and they would find nothing wrong and therefore would take the car apart and would find this secret.
So why did VW do this when they should have known the truth would have come out.
I think this wasn't done by them.
I can only assume this was an act of sabotage by someone either inside the company or outside and these people knew that when this became public
VW stock would go down and they could make a profit by short selling the stock.
1
I don't see why Winterkorn needed to resign this early if he indeed had no knowledge of this whole emissions-compliance-fraud-through-software controversy, despite what is reported as VW's command-and-control organizational structure.
I can see where a small group of software engineers could have come up with "the fix" under pressure to have the turbodiesel engine be ready for the production timeline. This does not excuse the fraudulent nature of "the fix" but I can see it happening. Maybe with some mid-level managers involved, whose necks are also on the line if they don't have "certified" engines ready to go for production. But I don't think one can assume such illegal type of strategy and activity would necessarily be communicated up to top senior management.
However, all management who did have knowledge of this fraudulent fix should be summarily fired and prosecuted.
For those old enough to have been around, this is akin to the terrible brand reputation blow Audi suffered some 30 years ago when its otherwise well-regarded and desirable U.S. flagship 5000S car suffered the public relations nightmare of the "sudden unintended acceleration" syndrome. Audi blamed it on "operator error;" others claimed it was a design problem.
The PR fight in the media cost Audi a whole generation of buyers and pretty much killed the brand in the U.S. for over 20 years. Ironically, now an Audi executive is being considered for the VW top job.
I can see where a small group of software engineers could have come up with "the fix" under pressure to have the turbodiesel engine be ready for the production timeline. This does not excuse the fraudulent nature of "the fix" but I can see it happening. Maybe with some mid-level managers involved, whose necks are also on the line if they don't have "certified" engines ready to go for production. But I don't think one can assume such illegal type of strategy and activity would necessarily be communicated up to top senior management.
However, all management who did have knowledge of this fraudulent fix should be summarily fired and prosecuted.
For those old enough to have been around, this is akin to the terrible brand reputation blow Audi suffered some 30 years ago when its otherwise well-regarded and desirable U.S. flagship 5000S car suffered the public relations nightmare of the "sudden unintended acceleration" syndrome. Audi blamed it on "operator error;" others claimed it was a design problem.
The PR fight in the media cost Audi a whole generation of buyers and pretty much killed the brand in the U.S. for over 20 years. Ironically, now an Audi executive is being considered for the VW top job.
4
This was no ACA rollout and they don't have to make stupid excuses like that.
And now he must go to jail.
3
Before he goes to jail for cheating on emissions , I want to see GM execs jailed for hiding defects that killed over 100 people.
Resigns with a golden parachute? Jail.
2
Moral: Don't mess with the Bug. She carries a ferocious bite.
About time, what was this fool thinking?
2
Profits, quarterly performance bonuses, stock options, perks, privileges, and getting a leg up on the competition; inside his corporation, and outside.
Terrible idea... But what is laughable is that people think VW did this in a vacuum. This type of thing happens all across the industry. Are people really that naive?
3
And how well will the auto industry fare if Fiat is hiding any environmental issues given what the Pope is seen riding in this week ...
2
REGULATION is not about limiting all behavior. It's about discouraging and curtailing inherent (just read a little history) human greed and criminality that too often hides behind attractive spin words like Freedom and Libertarianism.
True freedom is the twin of regulation — it RELIES on setting limits. It is a basic dynamic tension, not a binary choice.
The VW revelation may well lead to a cascade of other similar discoveries. Now is the time to treat the root of the sickness, lest we think the VW debacle is a fluke.
True freedom is the twin of regulation — it RELIES on setting limits. It is a basic dynamic tension, not a binary choice.
The VW revelation may well lead to a cascade of other similar discoveries. Now is the time to treat the root of the sickness, lest we think the VW debacle is a fluke.
2
Will somebody explain to me which is more polluting, a medium or heavy duty truck that spews black smelly smoke or a VW Jetta or Passat that emits no smoke??
2
Don't be fooled by what you can and cannot see, or how bad it smells. Remember we can't see or smell most harmful bacteria.
I’m wondering if anyone is looking at whether VW has also cheated with its gasoline models.
2
The idea the brand "made in Germany" would suffer. Volkswagen has long produced some of the most low quality vehicles made. I wouldn't touch a VW with a ten foot pole BEFORE this crisis.
2
Volkswagen and their CEO is just the welcomed fall guy in a game where every half-informed knows that every car maker in the world more or less 'optimizes' their software for these tests and an under fire agency in need of a stupid enough victim, to showcase their right to exist.
3
CSR is an element that companies should take encuenta and more when it comes to large coorporations as Volkswagen.
the issue of pollution is only a small part of the big problem that the company is facing another importates is the lack of awareness with their customers which could cause serious problemas.esto is just a sample of how technology will faster than the laws and big companies are the ones that need more attention because even when you believe are regulated and they are not come to commit similar acts.
the issue of pollution is only a small part of the big problem that the company is facing another importates is the lack of awareness with their customers which could cause serious problemas.esto is just a sample of how technology will faster than the laws and big companies are the ones that need more attention because even when you believe are regulated and they are not come to commit similar acts.
1
Winterkorn is falling a very short sword. There are other worthy projects to come. Godspeed!
This will bring much more testing to other companies also & especially to other VW & Audi vehicles including gas engines. This practice might be more widespread. This cheating & lying is an indication that more deception & lies are possible with other VW products with this culture of reprehensible gaming the system . They have lost the trust of their customers. Hopefully future testing will be more complete from the regulators & not allow this situation in the future. It should be very embarrassing that a very small private group exposed this ,while the resources of our government regulators missed.
1
Two questions:
1). How did they ever think they could get away with it?
2). Who made the decision to put at risk one of the world's most valuable brands?
1). How did they ever think they could get away with it?
2). Who made the decision to put at risk one of the world's most valuable brands?
7
I hope the government takes his passport away until after all investigations are complete and we know whether or not he will be involved in trials in Germany or the United States.
Also, I wonder if he got himself a "get out of jail free card" by telling Chancellor Merkel sometime back that a large, embarrassing disclosure could take place in the near future...and hoping that Merkel would not say a word because of economic and political considerations.
At this point, based on what I've read, Merkel's opponents are claiming she knew and did nothing. But of course that is the kind of rhetoric that political opponents often say when they think there may be some blood on the water.
Also, I wonder if he got himself a "get out of jail free card" by telling Chancellor Merkel sometime back that a large, embarrassing disclosure could take place in the near future...and hoping that Merkel would not say a word because of economic and political considerations.
At this point, based on what I've read, Merkel's opponents are claiming she knew and did nothing. But of course that is the kind of rhetoric that political opponents often say when they think there may be some blood on the water.
Since there are rumors that Apple is working on a car, this could be a golden opportunity. Apple could buy VW at a fire-sale price, fire everyone remotely connected to the scandal and install new management to clean everything up. Then they could use VW factories to produce the AppleWagen.
1
The first model re-branding will be the "iBug."
The Winterkorn Enigma puzzles scientists, so they
have studied it in detail and compiled a dossier.
Without admitting wrongdoing, a CEO departs;
followed by his henchmen and their complicated charts.
The company is tottering, and stockholders are sore,
but the Winterkorn Enigma seems to bring a great rapport.
Soon the ruffled feathers are unruffled once again,
and the company takes in more dollars and some yen.
Nobody seems to suffer from the rumpus and the rumor
(unless, of course, you want to count the uninformed consumer).
have studied it in detail and compiled a dossier.
Without admitting wrongdoing, a CEO departs;
followed by his henchmen and their complicated charts.
The company is tottering, and stockholders are sore,
but the Winterkorn Enigma seems to bring a great rapport.
Soon the ruffled feathers are unruffled once again,
and the company takes in more dollars and some yen.
Nobody seems to suffer from the rumpus and the rumor
(unless, of course, you want to count the uninformed consumer).
Just under this article on the front page a story about how other car companies have tried to cheat the EPA standards. So the whitewash and misdirection begins.
Message:
Nothing to see here move along.
Message:
Nothing to see here move along.
As a Volkswagen owner, I can't say this comes as good news. But I'll admit that I enjoy a certain degree of schadenfreude along with it.
If it helps dial back the typical Euro-German sanctimony I have to regularly endure about (supposed) low energy or environmental performance then it will have been worth it.
Pretty easy to be "high performance" when you adjust the testing methods or results.
There will of course be those who say "They all--meaning Detroit--do it!" How EuroStyle-Sanctimony and EuroStyle-Moral Relativism coexist must take legions of 'experts' to explain.
The squirming has only just begun.
If it helps dial back the typical Euro-German sanctimony I have to regularly endure about (supposed) low energy or environmental performance then it will have been worth it.
Pretty easy to be "high performance" when you adjust the testing methods or results.
There will of course be those who say "They all--meaning Detroit--do it!" How EuroStyle-Sanctimony and EuroStyle-Moral Relativism coexist must take legions of 'experts' to explain.
The squirming has only just begun.
1
The story following this one on NYT.com relates how automakers have fudged EPA tests since the beginning of EPA tests, with a nudge-nudge and a wink-wink flavor to it. Astounding, not that automakers cheat, steal and lie, but that their cheating is so well known and worth a little chuckle. I remember the day in the mid-70s when the collective chiefs of the big three when moaning to Congress about how they couldn't possibly meet those awful pollution laws. That was when Honda announced they'd met and exceeded the requirements. No chance for online comment then -- and let me be clear I'm not necessarily holding Honda up as a paragon of virtue -- but my thoughts at the time were, no neither GM nor Ford nor Chrysler have engineers on staff who can match what little bitty Honda did? That was when the turn toward Japanese cars really began. What happened to the Big Three then is, I think, in store for VW now.
2
I have a 2012 TDi. It is a nice car, good mileage, not fast but adequate. When the Diesel Particulate Filter died, at 83k (3k out of warranty, thanks) the repair was $2400, of which VW picked up $1200. (should have happened 4k sooner for full pickup)
I should have just gone for an "off road" delete of the emissions system, and ECU reprogram...it wasn't compliant anyway !!!
I should have just gone for an "off road" delete of the emissions system, and ECU reprogram...it wasn't compliant anyway !!!
1
Jail time. For all involved. It's time that corporate executive scofflaws begin to pay personally and dearly for knowingly breaking the law.
The failure to hold corporate executives accountable is one of the reasons so many in the US have lost confidence in our government and faith in democracy — and why the issue of economic and social equity is now at the fore of the current presidential race.
The failure to hold corporate executives accountable is one of the reasons so many in the US have lost confidence in our government and faith in democracy — and why the issue of economic and social equity is now at the fore of the current presidential race.
4
It should be a fairly simple matter by using the source control system to find out who wrote the suspect software, who tested it, the specs against which it was tested, who wrote the specs then then move up from there.
4
This is clearly a huge criminal case, probably involving dozens. In brief, the company is toast. Profitable divisions such as Porsche will be sold off. Regrettably, tens of thousands of decent workers will suffer the consequences.
1
Headline from the New York Times: "Volkswagen Test Rigging Follows a Long Auto Industry Pattern"
If the New York Times knows it why didnt the regulators know it. I must conclude either that the regulators have been complicit or the private sector is a lot smarter than the public sector.
If the New York Times knows it why didnt the regulators know it. I must conclude either that the regulators have been complicit or the private sector is a lot smarter than the public sector.
4
I agree totally with you...since how well did the SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) oversee Wall Street and Bernie Madoff prior to 2008....
And recently with the Justice Dept wrongly accusing charges against the Temple University professor ......
And recently with the Justice Dept wrongly accusing charges against the Temple University professor ......
When some conservatives complain that the private sector can regulate itself and we don't need "wasteful" government regulation, well here is why we do, in fact, need some degree of government regulation.
13
In addition to the implied theft of those who bought VW cars that are and probably will never perform as advertised, what about the loss to competitors who were unable to sell vehicles because they could not compete with the liars, cheats and thieves at VW? And what about the harm done to living beings worldwide from the pollution from these vehicles?
3
Did he resign to prepare to go to prison. I think that the germans have a much more humane prison system than ours. Which is good. This guy should be in it for awhile.
1
Here's an analogy: everyone speeds on the highway. It's acceptable because we have been doing it for years without getting a ticket. Then they put up a speed trap. Is it fair to the speeder considering there was no enforcement of the speed limit before?
2
Why are we so upset that a major corporation decided to ignore all those pesky regulations, isn't that what the Republicans what to get rid of, regulations?
Like George S says nobody was hurt, just lied too. But hey, isn't that now the American Way?
Like George S says nobody was hurt, just lied too. But hey, isn't that now the American Way?
3
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Shortly we'll be hearing from other car and truck manufacturers about their deceptions to fake their emissions control results. In many semi trucks there is a system that actually stores all the hazardous emissions for later release into the environment by the driver in a single toxic batch - ostensibly so it can be released when nobody is looking, or categorized as a maintenance activity.
2
I can understand the severity of implanting a deceptive means to pass EPA regulations, however in line with GM's troubles where people actually died as a result of their actions and lack of, a bit more perceptive is needed in order to move forward until more information is available of how VW will resolve the issues surrounding this scandal.
All the major players in the auto industry have faltered, mostly willingly on bad decision on many levels of their organizations ,one question that came to mind concerning the auto industry as a whole, is if they can actually produce vehicles that can meet all the environmental and safety expectations all at the same time while keeping the price reasonably affordable for the average ? consumers
All the major players in the auto industry have faltered, mostly willingly on bad decision on many levels of their organizations ,one question that came to mind concerning the auto industry as a whole, is if they can actually produce vehicles that can meet all the environmental and safety expectations all at the same time while keeping the price reasonably affordable for the average ? consumers
1
V W should be made to replace every single car with an electric vehicle. Let's get this show on the road re: Climate Change mitigation.
When will we start jailing corporate criminals?
There was a lot of hand-wringing at the lack of punishment of senior executives at the financial firms that caused our last financial crisis.
Now one wonders why have no senior auto executives been tried and convicted for being the criminals they are for the apparently regular pattern of deception on emissions?
Whether you are a criminal cop or a criminal senior auto (or other) executive, simply "retiring" with your fat pension or the gazillions you have been paid in the latters' case, is really no punishment at all. Kind of like hedge fund titan Stephen Cohen paying a billion or two in penalties for crooked trading, and being left only with 9 or 10 billion. Ouch! Must hurt!
Let us hope the criminal conduct in the Volkswagen case (there is nothing "apparent" about it - it actually happened) finally results in the trial and imprisonment of the criminal executives responsible for it.
There was a lot of hand-wringing at the lack of punishment of senior executives at the financial firms that caused our last financial crisis.
Now one wonders why have no senior auto executives been tried and convicted for being the criminals they are for the apparently regular pattern of deception on emissions?
Whether you are a criminal cop or a criminal senior auto (or other) executive, simply "retiring" with your fat pension or the gazillions you have been paid in the latters' case, is really no punishment at all. Kind of like hedge fund titan Stephen Cohen paying a billion or two in penalties for crooked trading, and being left only with 9 or 10 billion. Ouch! Must hurt!
Let us hope the criminal conduct in the Volkswagen case (there is nothing "apparent" about it - it actually happened) finally results in the trial and imprisonment of the criminal executives responsible for it.
1
I don’t think this will have a lasting effect on VW sales. As a two time VW owner I’m actually not concerned about the software tweaking in fact when It first came to light I thought it was funny and tweeted “im not taking my 2015 car in ever!. Anyone buying a TDI engine is buying it for the same reason someone buys a new iphone every year. I have owned many automobiles over the years and they all exaggerate/lie about fuel economy. VW simple got cheating not lying for a cause (more horse power) + (passing emissions on older models) I may add. They should have just lied about it because that’s ok it seems. My wife could drive twice the distance I drive on the same amount of fuel it all depends on how you drive.
3
OK.
No big wigs held accountable for mortgage fraud.
Big wig that runs one of the world's largest auto maker frauds looks to get off Scott Free.
About 120+ deaths due to GM fraud but nobody is accountable.
I think we've got the message.
No big wigs held accountable for mortgage fraud.
Big wig that runs one of the world's largest auto maker frauds looks to get off Scott Free.
About 120+ deaths due to GM fraud but nobody is accountable.
I think we've got the message.
1
Lots of good observations and suggestions here. But what pray tell is VW going to do for all of us who bought these cars? "Fixing" our cars for free to bring them up to emissions standards seems grossly inadequate for the fraud perpetrated on each and every one of us. We thought we were making great "green" choices--I even got a tax credit for buying this car--and I have thoroughly enjoyed driving my Jetta SportWagen TDI. I should not now have to be stuck with a "fixed" car with low mileage that will have virtually zilch resale value. I think VW should either have to give us new 2016 or 2017 non-diesel VWs for free or pay us each the 2016 sticker price of the fraudulent cars we already own. Not to mention all the fines. Shame on them.
32
My thoughts exactly. We've been defrauded, and unless VW can supply us with the cars we *thought* we were buying, we shouldn't have to be stuck with these vehicles. Criminalizing their deeds is a worthy and necessary effort, but all the jail time in the world for those responsible will not help those of us who own these cars. VW needs to give TDI owners a way out.
And what sort of golden parachute is he riding out with?
1
Don't let the EPA know that the US Defense Dept is not subject to its regulations. The duplicity of gov't!
1
There are no criminal penalties for trying to manipulate EPA requirements. Not a single banker went to jail over the 2008 economic disaster even though trillions of dollars were lost. People with very modest means were the biggest losers the bank leaders are still making billions and still in charge. Only George W Bush and Chaney are now blaming Obama for everything.
5
Yes... and we're supposed to trust that companies will do the right thing. Yes... all those regulations are killing companies. Emphatic "No's" should be fairly obvious. VW is not a sleazy fly-by-night operation. Companies, in general, should be held to ever greater scrutiny as they grow to ever larger parts of an economy. Clearly, the US and other governments have underfunded their testing for years. Is there really any difference between this scandal and any other corporate frauds of the past in other areas (like banking)? Not really, other than the horrify and ever-growing scale.
Also, it's really hard to understand why there wouldn't or shouldn't be criminal charges against not only against Winterkorn but many other members of the management structure. Strict liability offenses need to be enacted. Until fraud is dis-incentivized, it will continue in ever greater and breathtaking scales with the potential to destroy entire nations.
Also, it's really hard to understand why there wouldn't or shouldn't be criminal charges against not only against Winterkorn but many other members of the management structure. Strict liability offenses need to be enacted. Until fraud is dis-incentivized, it will continue in ever greater and breathtaking scales with the potential to destroy entire nations.
3
I think it's even worse. Policymakers in any car making country know exactly what's going on regarding discrepancies between test and real world fuel consumption/emissions. Because these studies by ICCT et al. are available for years now and nobody does anything.
“'While the German economy defied Greece, the euro crisis and the Chinese slowdown, it could now be facing the biggest downside risk in a long while,' Carsten Brzeski, chief economist at ING-DiBa bank in Germany, wrote in a note to clients. 'The irony of all of this is that the threat could now come from the inside, rather than from the outside.'"
And that, dear Republicans, is why government has an interest in regulating business—because one stupendously bad corporate decision may have a real impact on the entire German economy.
And that, dear Republicans, is why government has an interest in regulating business—because one stupendously bad corporate decision may have a real impact on the entire German economy.
6
For this to happen, the people who run VW clearly have to have had no ethical standards, and a pronounced deficit of common sense.
3
They are just regular average business people, don't be naive.
1
In its eagerness to get to the top of the world as number one auto maker, VW has surpassed all the greed as an organization. So the greed is not limited to NY stock exchange only and hence mala fide intentions have taken over.This type of phenomenon has been seen more in this materialistic world and the punishment meted out to the parties have not proved to be deterrent.Just consider that the company has already set aside $ 7.3 billion as collateral for this quarter proves that , they were aware of the consequences. A penalty of $ 18 billion and a class action suit which may follow suit immediately must be nowhere the amount that the company would have made profit out of this deal. The regulatory mechanism has failed in this case to take notice of the test results made public 3 years back is a proof that corp orates wield more muscle power than the regulator.Let this be a lesson for things to come in future where soft wares are going to dictate more reach than hardware and hence will make detection/evasion difficult.
1
One more creative feat of German Engineering: the invention of a software program to break the law, pollute the Earth, and deceive their customers--just to satisfy their greed for the bottom line! Wouldn't it be better to create a program that correctly calculates the cost/benefit analysis of corporate malfeasance in the global economy, in which collective memories of notable acts of moral bankruptcy do pass from generation to generation?
1
@S. Le
And what about U.S. Engineering: that bailed out several notoriously wealthy banking institutions (that are now profiting) -- But left American taxpayers to foot the bill???
And what about U.S. Engineering: that bailed out several notoriously wealthy banking institutions (that are now profiting) -- But left American taxpayers to foot the bill???
1
The idea that this whole fraudulent scheme was concocted and pulled off by by lower level managers without the CEOs full blessing is absurd. The minute that some smart engineer discovered it and reported it, the CEO would have everyone involved fired. The only way this went on for so long was for very senior level people to know. No employee would have an incentive to commit such a fraud unless they knew this had been given a mandate from the top.
When will we stop giving CEOs a pass every time there is a scandal based on the idea that they had no idea about a major companywide fraud? Either CEOs are ignorant about how their businesses operate and do not deserve the fame and fortune they demand with their positions, or else they do know and should be held accountable.
When will we stop giving CEOs a pass every time there is a scandal based on the idea that they had no idea about a major companywide fraud? Either CEOs are ignorant about how their businesses operate and do not deserve the fame and fortune they demand with their positions, or else they do know and should be held accountable.
6
His disavowing knowledge of the scam reminds me of a scene in "Casino" When Robert DeNiro fired the slot manager. It went something like this: "If you didn't know you were being scammed you're incompetent. If you did know you were in on it. Either way you're fired!"
The same applies to Mr Winterkorn.
The same applies to Mr Winterkorn.
5
As an owner of one of the affected TDI cars, I'm chagrined after years of crowing about great gas mileage (50mpg once, I even took a picture of the display to prove it!) to friends and family and for mocking my friend's Prius for being a dog to drive compared to my punchy wagon. I hope that the changes they decide on for the recall don't make it into a completely different car. However, in defense of VW, this is my 3rd VW and I still think they make a great product, but I wonder if they will recover from this.
5
Too bad that a company known for innovation and those cute VW bugs from the 1960s/70s has turned into just another greedy, manipulative corporation. So much for the "people's car."
3
While what Volkwagen did to hide emissions from diesel vehicles is surely criminal, and unbelievably stupid, it pales in significance to what Exxon did to disguise and ignore what they knew about fossil fuels and climate change.
7
Not a valid comparison. Exxon have plausible deniability while VW have none. You are grinding your axe on the wrong wheel and would only serve to make people question environmentalism' ability to reason logically.
2
Often there are misguided comments posted that basically have nothing to do with the issues at hand, and how the names of "Bush and Cheney" gets shoved into this issue by another commenter is beyond comprehension...
I don't know what punishment is appropriate for the ones who approved this conspiracy. But I do know this. When it became known that all diesel engInes would fail emission requirements without a software change to hide that failure, people in very senior positions had to approve the cost, design, and implementation of the fix. Not only does it speak to bankrupt ethics, but also outright stupidity. How could the brain trust that did this think it would never be discovered? I will wager the CEO knew given his very premature resignation.
5
I'm sure that Mr. Winterkorn will enjoy a very active retirement. He may find that he will required to speak on how this came to be. I have to wonder how many invitations he will get to speak on the matter? And no ... no Mr Winterkorn you may not decline and yes you will speak clearly. I do wonder if the VW will survive the tsunami of public opinion. Would you buy a VW? I am looking to buy a new and for sure VW isn't on my list, would VW be on your list?
2
The moral of the story is "Buy American". The specter of jail looms over corrupt employees here in their own nation which is a terrific incentive to do good honest work. I doubt Mr. Winterkorn could be jailed here in America for this controversy.
1
Huh? If you go by that standard, buy Chinese. The only country that arrest CEO/chairman/management for poor management, non-disclosure, market manipulation is China.
2
“I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my part,” he said.
I'm not a car nut, but something doesn't ring true here. If the US emission standards are tighter than the European, do the US diesel cars perform the same and get same milage as the European?
If they perform the same, isn't that a gigantic red flag?
I'm not a car nut, but something doesn't ring true here. If the US emission standards are tighter than the European, do the US diesel cars perform the same and get same milage as the European?
If they perform the same, isn't that a gigantic red flag?
3
Mileage in the US cannot be directly translated to mileage in Europe and vice versa. UK use imperial gallon, the continent use liter and the US use US gallon. The testing cycle is also different so EPA might require the car to drive at 55mph with one window down and A/C at mid while in Europe it might be at 62mph (100km/h) with all window up and no A/C.
That said, most of the 11 million cheating VW are going to be in Europe. Europe is the only place in the world where small diesel are running around.
That said, most of the 11 million cheating VW are going to be in Europe. Europe is the only place in the world where small diesel are running around.
3
German quality. German quality is just a myth. It used to be true of German worker slaving away hours to make one unit of anything and that thing is of the upmost quality. Nowadays it means a foreign worker, mostly Turks, assembling parts made in East Asia. Germany still have great engineers but they no longer have the skill workers necessary to build those complicated products reliably.
To me, this VW scandals is just the most recent and obvious sign of the decline of Germany. Germany R&D are lagging behind the British, Dutch, Swiss and East Asian nations. The country completely missed the IT revolution.
To me, this VW scandals is just the most recent and obvious sign of the decline of Germany. Germany R&D are lagging behind the British, Dutch, Swiss and East Asian nations. The country completely missed the IT revolution.
4
@AmateurHistorian NYC
And when was the last time you were in Germany?...And how many German products do you currently own??
With all due respect, the only myth you refer to appears to be of your own making.
And when was the last time you were in Germany?...And how many German products do you currently own??
With all due respect, the only myth you refer to appears to be of your own making.
Wait! Mr.Winterkorn's salary, according to Google, is $36,000,000.00/year. If he gets out of this without going to prison for the rest of his short life, and without losing all the money he has ever made in his life, and without losing all the wealth and material objects he has accumulated in his life, then, because VW is now subject to fines in the billion of dollars, where is the justice? Where is the punishment?
10
There no criminal penalties for trying to beat EPA requirements.
Wow, talk about the punishment not fitting the crime! Take away every single thing the man owns? Every dollar ever earned even if no from VW? Short of some dictatorship somewhere I know of no civilized nation on earth that would do such an unjust action. You act as if the man was convicted of genocude or something.
This would be an opportune moment for Congress to pass legislation that imposes criminal penalties on auto industry personnel who break laws, and that removes special-interest impediments to prosecution, more generally of corporate malefactors.
This ought to be a golden opportunity for bipartisan cooperation. If bipartisan toughening of the laws is thwarted by one party, the other should make it an issue in the upcoming elections.
(Am I fantasizing?)
This ought to be a golden opportunity for bipartisan cooperation. If bipartisan toughening of the laws is thwarted by one party, the other should make it an issue in the upcoming elections.
(Am I fantasizing?)
9
Maybe Congress should fund the EPA enough to randomly test all models of cars.
5
Of course you're fantasizing......it all started when you began looking to government to solve your supposed problems. If the government would get out of the way, the market would solve it's own problems. Maybe not to your liking, but the market if left alone would solve it. Instead, weak minded people like you keep electing people to office, demanding that they solve your problems, and all they do is create more.
Profit hates innovation because it shortens product lifetimes.
Titans complain about what to them are regulations. To me they are "safeguards" and we cannot permit them to be watered down by greedy corporations.
7
So what's worse - Martin Winterkorn having no knowledge of the emissions cheating scandal (although he took responsibility for it) or actually having knowledge of the scandal but not admitting to it?
4
Many years ago, I attended an executive training seminar. The group, from many companies, included a group from VW. One part of the seminar involved the role of failure in the innovation process. "Admit failure early, learn from it, move on" seemed like obvious good advice to most of the attendees. However, it really struck me how the group from VW could not accept this. "Failure is not an option" seemed totally ingrained in their corporate culture. I speculate that when the story of this is finally written, it will turn out there was a top-down directive to develop an innovative clean diesel that met performance goals etc. The development guys were unable to do so and, also being unable to admit failure to their superiors, did something else, with catastrophic results for the company. A, perhaps large, group of middle managers and engineers will be found guilty. However, the corporate culture will really be at fault.
6
Since this is a criminal action I would hope that he got no termination pay or pension but somehow I doubt it.
3
"But they also said they did not believe that Mr. Winterkorn had any knowledge of the manipulation." Are you joking? If he didn't, then he is a fool, and Winterkorn hardly seems a fool. He should finish in jail, but probably minor players will take the hit, and he will retire, rich and happy. The wheels are coming off Germany....
4
Mr. Winterkorn took home 15.9 million euros, or $17.8 million, last year, not including pension benefits. That made him one of Germany’s highest-paid bosses.
4
Maybe the solution is to make VW pay for the excess lifetime emissions, at the Carbon Tax rate (or combo NOx/CO2 rate), for the expected life of the engine, and just allow the duped buyers and current owners of the cars continue to drive them to a natural death....no performance degrading to match the emissions spec....(Plus hang those responsible....)
4
Or we could just let the market decide what should happen to VW. If people still want their cars, let them buy them. If enough people don't care about this, and continue to buy the cars, good for them. If enough people decide that this is such a terrible atrocity, they will no longer buy the cars, and poof.....VW is gone. What my gut tells me will happen, is that small minded people, and government bureaucrats will run around in circles in an attempt to be more outraged than the other, and us normal folks will have to put up with months and maybe years how more government will prevent this from ever happening again.
So the automaker is being called out for breaking the law. Bankers are also being called out for breaking laws. Police are being called out for breaking the law. Tell me why they all are called out for breaking the law, but it's okay for illegal immigrants to break U.S. law, and be awarded jobs and social services for it?
Please, tell readers why laws shouldn't apply to everyone.
Please, tell readers why laws shouldn't apply to everyone.
8
I didn't think it possible for a Right Winger to tie immigration to a story sbout a German firm's malfeasance...
But again we underestimate their bigotry.
But again we underestimate their bigotry.
5
Equating fellow human beings seeking a better future with criminals is rather sad, wish the folks here before your forefathers had slammed the door in their face & sent them packing
3
If we are trying to justify some law breakers maybe this German guy can claim he break the law because he wants to protect employees' job and pension and Germany place in the industrial world. Would that make the law-breaker-lovers among you suddenly like him more?
2
Wintercorn is the face of hubris. Just this year he demanded a pay raise from 13 million to 21 million dollars. This in the face of running a cheating corporation that was known for its "top down" management style. Why are these leaders" (read crooks) allowed to get away with this arrogance in both the US and Germany?
6
The big question is what was the EPA doing from 2009-15? As I understand it, a person at a university did an emissions road test and didn't get the same results as VW. That researcher wrote a letter to VW asking for clarification of their emissions results. He got a multipage, nothing answer. He then forwarded VW's letter, and his field test results to the EPA getting us to where we are now.
We pay taxes to our government to fund these regulatory agencies only to have a private citizen do real work to find out VW cheated? You mean nobody at the EPA ever thought that a computer can be programmed to do this and nobody in a half decade ever did a tailpipe sensor emissions test? I don't mind paying taxes for regulatory agencies, but what are we paying engineers/scientists at the EPA for?
We pay taxes to our government to fund these regulatory agencies only to have a private citizen do real work to find out VW cheated? You mean nobody at the EPA ever thought that a computer can be programmed to do this and nobody in a half decade ever did a tailpipe sensor emissions test? I don't mind paying taxes for regulatory agencies, but what are we paying engineers/scientists at the EPA for?
7
The software DID change the emissions coming out of the tailpipe during testing.
Once the sensors detected the tests were completed, the software shut down the emission controls allowing the engine to produce NOX levels far beyond the allowable maximums.
Is reading comprehension THAT bad here?
Once the sensors detected the tests were completed, the software shut down the emission controls allowing the engine to produce NOX levels far beyond the allowable maximums.
Is reading comprehension THAT bad here?
1
This thing with emissions is just ridiculous. Look at BMW website and VW website. The numbers are almost equals. Both engines is about same HP and have same mpg. So how one engine can burn 1 gallon of fuel and pollute air 40 times more than another if the emission neutralizers are THE SAME for BMW and VW?
4
And what are the actual, quantifiable damages from this action. None. What are the actual quantifiable actions to the USA of China stealing our manufacturing industries because of the EPA over regulating our economy, HUGE.
2
Visit any mega Asian city and see the absence of EPA in their societies, they have learned their lesson the hard way & are desperately trying to fix the possible irreversible damage to themselves
3
If anyone not working for an almighty corporation were charged with similar misconduct, they would almost certainly be indicted for criminal wrongdoing. But corporations can lie, cheat and steal to their hearts' content as long as they pay their fines whenever they get caught and get rid of an executive or two.
In VW's case, the issue is not whether the CEO personally conspired to deceive the public, as well as government regulators. The issue is that no CEO who wasn't completely asleep at the wheel could possibly be oblivious to such a widespread and well-implemented deception. VW isn't the least bit sorry for doing what they did—they're just sorry that they got caught doing it.
In VW's case, the issue is not whether the CEO personally conspired to deceive the public, as well as government regulators. The issue is that no CEO who wasn't completely asleep at the wheel could possibly be oblivious to such a widespread and well-implemented deception. VW isn't the least bit sorry for doing what they did—they're just sorry that they got caught doing it.
6
I can easily see how this happened.
I was involved, as an academic, in benchmarking a computer we developed. As someone new to benchmarking I thought what we should do to test was to compile the program with an ordinary compiler and determine the performance from that. But, in fact, the standard is to optimize the code as much as possible (because we were testing the computer, not the compiler) and then report results.
This standard was based on the idea that "everybody does it that way." It is not quite the same thing as "everybody cheats, so let's do it, too" -- we weren't cheating. We were just optimizing the code.
Now, in a complex system like an automobile there are many opportunities to improve performance, as the article says. And the line between optimizing so your car performs as well as it should compared to other vehicles is not so clear. Is it wrong to introduce a performance mode that improves engine emissions at low speed? Probably not, because drivers will encounter those conditions when in city traffic. What if the conditions are only encountered occasionally in traffic, but every time during emissions testing? It's a gray area. What if the car detects it's being tested and enters the special mode? Definitely over the line.
The VW CEO is responsible for making sure that this kind of competitive optimization is not taken too far. He is responsible for moral leadership of the company. He has done the right thing by resigning.
I was involved, as an academic, in benchmarking a computer we developed. As someone new to benchmarking I thought what we should do to test was to compile the program with an ordinary compiler and determine the performance from that. But, in fact, the standard is to optimize the code as much as possible (because we were testing the computer, not the compiler) and then report results.
This standard was based on the idea that "everybody does it that way." It is not quite the same thing as "everybody cheats, so let's do it, too" -- we weren't cheating. We were just optimizing the code.
Now, in a complex system like an automobile there are many opportunities to improve performance, as the article says. And the line between optimizing so your car performs as well as it should compared to other vehicles is not so clear. Is it wrong to introduce a performance mode that improves engine emissions at low speed? Probably not, because drivers will encounter those conditions when in city traffic. What if the conditions are only encountered occasionally in traffic, but every time during emissions testing? It's a gray area. What if the car detects it's being tested and enters the special mode? Definitely over the line.
The VW CEO is responsible for making sure that this kind of competitive optimization is not taken too far. He is responsible for moral leadership of the company. He has done the right thing by resigning.
3
I suggest the U.S. government express its reaction to polluting our air by making Martin Winterkorn and VW board members, and others when proven to be involved, unable to enter the U.S.
2
In Germany, Japan and other countries, when there is a scandal uncovered the CEO takes responsibility for the situation, saying that I happened under his watch, even if he had no personal involvement. In the States, CEO's take no responsibility, even if they were the prime motivator behind the actions of others. Then the CEO point fingers and wait to be fired, ensuring that their golden parachute provides a nice soft landing.
4
VW/Audi fan here...........
These emissions are no worse that the Harleys belching huge amounts of CO at least, into the air. Just have to stay behind one at a stop light. Or the huge amounts of pollution by jet airplanes so we can take that much needed weekend vacation to the Caribbean.
It's not right what they did; in the whole scheme of things we all waste more food & fuel and produce more trash everyday than really is necessary.
So, ride a bike, recycle and shower together more!
These emissions are no worse that the Harleys belching huge amounts of CO at least, into the air. Just have to stay behind one at a stop light. Or the huge amounts of pollution by jet airplanes so we can take that much needed weekend vacation to the Caribbean.
It's not right what they did; in the whole scheme of things we all waste more food & fuel and produce more trash everyday than really is necessary.
So, ride a bike, recycle and shower together more!
1
We could all ignore this, who cares if there are no carribean islands left for our grand kids to vacation in
2
When you look at some of the cars on the road these days -- with smoke spewing out all over the place (buses too); I wonder how they pass inspection!!! Volkswagen's -- even with the emission cheating -- pass inspection. At least mind did!
PMAC, the reason they passed is BECAUSE of the cheating!
3
Actually yours didn't....that is the point. It only passed your state's emission inspection because VW was cheating. During regular driving situations when your car was not being tested in spewed all of that and more into the air we breath.
3
Clearly, you don't understand the software problem. Software was designed to detect when emission testing was being performed and to reduce emissions at that time only. So, of course, your diesel would pass.
Does anybody knows if getting fired differs from resining in terms of the money and perks he takes away? I would love to know. Was he allowed the less painful way out? Thank you.
1
Let's put this into perspective.
There were 124 dead Americans as the result of GM's cover up of its faulty ignition switch. Those dead can not be brought back, by any amount of money, whereas the VW cheat can be fixed by money.
Mr. Winterkorn, who did not know about this, nevertheless resigned. The head of GM, who did not know either, is still on the job.
And the DOJ prosecuted no one at GM.
There were 124 dead Americans as the result of GM's cover up of its faulty ignition switch. Those dead can not be brought back, by any amount of money, whereas the VW cheat can be fixed by money.
Mr. Winterkorn, who did not know about this, nevertheless resigned. The head of GM, who did not know either, is still on the job.
And the DOJ prosecuted no one at GM.
8
GM is also not being charged with bankruptcy fraud. They did not disclose the liabilities associated with the faulty ignition switches in the court proceedings.
1
Faulty switches was a probable cause, most surely had other real factors that caused deaths, besides all that got buried in the bad gm, something similar will happen to vw
1
Yes - these cars pollute more than they are supposed to. But these additional, unauthorized emissions are likely tiny in comparison to the emissions produced during the manufacturing process. The answer is not to build cars with lower emissions; the answer is to find another way to get around, other than the car.
Like maybe roller skates?
I wonder how much money VW spends on its wellness program to reduce chronic illnesses such as asthma and other respiratory aliments?
Big deal! As if all car companies don't try to evade these ridiculous environmental laws. How about trucks, how about the power plants, HOW ABOUT CHINA? I wonder how many VW's it takes to equal one truck, how many VW's it takes to equal one power plant? Let's get real here, the American car makers were almost ruined during the 70's and 80's from the stupid laws, the cars back then were so slow no one would buy them,no wonder foreign cars got such a stranglehold on the US market . I am not a pollution denier, just hate to see all these self righteous people make a mountain out of a molehill. If the owners couldn't tell the difference then there is no huge difference, it's just the "idea" with these self righteous environmentalists.
2
Your comment is ridiculous. Where are the spare planets to move once Capitalism completes th destruction of this planet's Biosphere?
Th Germans have learned Capitalism too well from their American models.
2
Just can't bring yourself to acknowledge the unqualified wrong committed by the German leadership of VW can you?
1
Just six months after a mentally ill pilot flying for a subsidiary of Lufthansa, Germany’s leading airline, crashed his plane into a mountainside, the revelations about Volkswagen’s cheating on environmental standards threaten to further tarnish the country’s image as a bastion of quality and safety, where regulations are strict — and strictly enforced.
This statement clearly begs so hard to find a connection that does not particularly exist and is poor journalism. There is nothing reasonable or intellectual to connect these two events. Poor taste and desperate...I find it below what I expect from the journalism of this paper
This statement clearly begs so hard to find a connection that does not particularly exist and is poor journalism. There is nothing reasonable or intellectual to connect these two events. Poor taste and desperate...I find it below what I expect from the journalism of this paper
3
Rumor has it that Winterkorn will be signing on to a top management position with the New England Patriots.
9
In few words criminal behavior is to be always expected when the ruling value is Capitalism.
Capitalism means simply that to accumulate capital is the most important thing and it justifies any actions.
On the other hand Socialism means society is the main value, even when obviously that system can like almost everything be corrupted.
Capitalism means simply that to accumulate capital is the most important thing and it justifies any actions.
On the other hand Socialism means society is the main value, even when obviously that system can like almost everything be corrupted.
2
I, for one, think this is hysterical. Volkswagen finally has an edge, a clever edge. I hate that, in the midst of scandal, they only force the CEO step down. It's as if these boards think that people (read: the stock market) are dumb enough to think that there was only one mastermind behind the issue, and now that he/she has been removed, all is golden again. I'm sure it takes a team, if not a whole company, to develop an emissions rigging device, the whole team should take the blame.
2
As CEO, Mr. Winterkorn is accountable for the actions of all VW employees, and therefore, resignation was likely his only board-mandated option. If, as he says, he is not directly responsible for this disaster, then he may evade criminal prosecution. Gut feel, however, says that one or more whistleblowers were ignored, in which case Winterkorn may find himself in the klink along with his other responsible VW managers.
Congratulations, VW, for giving diesel engines a black eye in North America just as they were starting to get popular. On the other hand, diesel fuel prices have consistently remained high as gasoline prices have collapsed, so diesel economics were already faltering. This is a good day, indeed, for the US automotive industry, especially Tesla.
Congratulations, VW, for giving diesel engines a black eye in North America just as they were starting to get popular. On the other hand, diesel fuel prices have consistently remained high as gasoline prices have collapsed, so diesel economics were already faltering. This is a good day, indeed, for the US automotive industry, especially Tesla.
3
Disclosure: I own a gas powered VW and hold VW ADRs (essentially a shareholder).
This is but the beginning of the problems for VW and the auto industry as a whole.
Last week The Guardian reported that 9 of 10 diesel cars tested did not meet the emissions tests required in the EU. This was in the September 14th issue- before the EPA/CARB/VW announcement. That would imply that this gaming goes well beyond Volkswagen.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/14/nine-out-of-10-new-di...
VW should ask the entire Board of Management to Resign regardless of their knowledge and start with a clean slate.
This is but the beginning of the problems for VW and the auto industry as a whole.
Last week The Guardian reported that 9 of 10 diesel cars tested did not meet the emissions tests required in the EU. This was in the September 14th issue- before the EPA/CARB/VW announcement. That would imply that this gaming goes well beyond Volkswagen.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/14/nine-out-of-10-new-di...
VW should ask the entire Board of Management to Resign regardless of their knowledge and start with a clean slate.
1
In another news outlet reporting on this story I read, “Any politician in his situation would have to resign.” Yes, but failed, deceitful politicians don't receive multiple millions in golden parachute cash when their deceptions and failures force them out of office.
Yet we gleefully but mean-spiritedly bash public employees for their pensions and health care benefits.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Yet we gleefully but mean-spiritedly bash public employees for their pensions and health care benefits.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
2
So. Much. PR. Spin. Many will fall for it.
1
Volkswagen slapped a court order on some academic researchers who notified the company of a security flaw in its software. VW's action was ridiculed in the tech press at the time. It's now apparent that that this was just a small visible component betraying a deeply flawed corporate culture.
7
“There is no evidence that this is an industrywide issue.” The European Automobile Manufacturers Association. There is also no evidence that it isn't an industrywide issue. It's no secret among automobile makers and their engineers that low emissions and high performance is suspect. If it isn't, it is now.
6
What strikes me most about this resignation is that Mr. Winterkorn accepts responsibility for the actions of the company. Such integrity is hard to find here in the US. Those who cost much of the middle class everything during the Great Recession have yet to even be glared at, let alone punished, for their deceptions.
4
"accepts responsibility for the actions of the company"
"responsibility" Is that what you think Winterkorn did and why he did it?
"responsibility" Is that what you think Winterkorn did and why he did it?
2
Before praising Winterkorn's "integrity" I would like to know the terms of his severance. Is it another Fiorina - run the company into the ground and walk away with over $40 million in cash, stock options, and pensions? A lot of little people are going to be hurt by this deception.
"Those who cost much of the middle class everything during the Great Recession have yet to even be glared at, let alone punished, for their deceptions."
Stupidity in the process of buying a house or refinancing it is not a crime.
Stupidity in the process of buying a house or refinancing it is not a crime.
Penny wise and pound foolish. It seems to be the MO of CEOs trying to buck the system. Now they have to pay billions of dollars instead of a few millions to do it right the first place. He has ruined the reputation of a great company that people were proud of and trusted. That is priceless!
2
This story could have unfortunate consequences beyond the questionable TDI technology used by VW. The reality is that diesel technology has come a long way and can provide significant fuel savings with very low emissions using the DEF urea based technology found in higher-end diesel automobiles and in newer trucks. It would be a shame to have advanced diesels pushed to the sidelines because of VW's deceptive claims about their inferior TDI technology and go back to gas-guzzling, short service-life, vehicles burning premium unleaded.
4
Is it not ironic that, at lease in the US, the financial statements of a publicly traded company must receive the sign-off of key company executives, attesting to the accuracy of said statements, at the risk of jail time for fraud. In the VW case, it seems doubtful this will be the outcome.
The irony is the penalties relative to the actions: Fraudulently representing financial numbers, in and of itself not an environmentally damaging act, vs. fraudulently misrepresenting the pollution-generating characteristics of hundreds of thousands of automobiles sold on a global scale.
The irony is the penalties relative to the actions: Fraudulently representing financial numbers, in and of itself not an environmentally damaging act, vs. fraudulently misrepresenting the pollution-generating characteristics of hundreds of thousands of automobiles sold on a global scale.
2
I suspect he leaves with a very nice exit package. Unless the long arms of the legal system can reach him, I think he'll enjoy a comfortable, worry-free retirement.
2
He was only making $23 million a year; how could he know what is going on in his company? I wonder what he gets for "retiring."
5
VW should brace itself for an onslaught that will make the carnage at BP look like a walk in the park. To paraphrase Marsellus Washington of Pulp Fiction, environmental and anti corporate activists, together with their allies the trial lawyers and state AGs, are about to get medieval on VW. Let's just hope they don't take down Porsche, Audi and Bentley in the process. We love those cars.
VW's willful conduct is ,of course, pretty outrageous. But before we get too sanctimonious, let's remember the duplicitous regulatory structure that brought us here. CAFE regulations force automakers to virtually give away poor performing, emission's friendly vehicles in sufficient numbers to enable sales of high performance vehicles people actually want to buy. Faced with the fact that VW could barely give away sluggish diesel models in the US, the company was forced to a foolish risk, for which it will pay dearly. But virtually every American consumer who bought a diesel Jetta, would probably have opted for the less environmentally friendly gasoline version without the subterfuge of bypassing the emissions control system. In reality, few Americans want sluggish, tiny cars -- particularly when gasoline prices are relatively low.
VW's willful conduct is ,of course, pretty outrageous. But before we get too sanctimonious, let's remember the duplicitous regulatory structure that brought us here. CAFE regulations force automakers to virtually give away poor performing, emission's friendly vehicles in sufficient numbers to enable sales of high performance vehicles people actually want to buy. Faced with the fact that VW could barely give away sluggish diesel models in the US, the company was forced to a foolish risk, for which it will pay dearly. But virtually every American consumer who bought a diesel Jetta, would probably have opted for the less environmentally friendly gasoline version without the subterfuge of bypassing the emissions control system. In reality, few Americans want sluggish, tiny cars -- particularly when gasoline prices are relatively low.
3
A lot of the cars involved were Audis also...
Diesel is a fuel that should be reserved for heavy trucking. "Clean diesel" is a fraud. Fortunately in the US we have not bought into the lies of the automakers about diesel, but it is time to protect our children's lungs by banning diesel car sales.
2
Diesel can have a way lower carbon footprint than gasoline based on far superior milage and very low emissions if the correct technology is applied. The urea based DEF systems found in higher-end automobiles and newer trucks cost more at the point of purchase than VW's compromised TDI diesels but are very durable and efficient. We shouldn't let the TDI bad apples spoil the more efficient and durable DEF bunch. Diesel can be green.
Diesel is lower CO2 production per mile but it is still higher NOx and particulate matter. One only has to look at the air pollution problems in European cities to see the dangers of having higher usage of diesel technology. It may make sense to have diesel for heavy trucking but we should electrify passenger vehicles to address the CO2 issue.
http://www.hybridcars.com/will-america-avoid-europes-clean-diesel-problems/
http://www.hybridcars.com/will-america-avoid-europes-clean-diesel-problems/
Difficult to believe M.Winterkorn didn't know about the scam: 1/ Both entities, VW and Audi are completely independent and are coordinated only at the highest level. The middle management was most probably not aware of the scam.
2/ Considering the managerial culture of the company which is underlined in the article - everything "even relatively minor decisions" had to be approved from the top executives and such a huge fraud wasn't a minor decision.
But, as usual, the sad old excuse " I am responsible as CEO but not guilty" has been cynically expressed. It also means that M.Winterkorn shifts the blame on his underlings. Such lack of ethics is a disgrace.
2/ Considering the managerial culture of the company which is underlined in the article - everything "even relatively minor decisions" had to be approved from the top executives and such a huge fraud wasn't a minor decision.
But, as usual, the sad old excuse " I am responsible as CEO but not guilty" has been cynically expressed. It also means that M.Winterkorn shifts the blame on his underlings. Such lack of ethics is a disgrace.
4
Some people really are letting emotion carry them away on this. Yes, VW was wrong and deserves to be sanctioned, indeed, significantly, but demands for full refunds on cars (apparently no matter how old or the condition or mileage), lots of people sent to jail, etc., really are disproportionate to the actual harm. No deaths or injuries resulted and even assessing the environmental impact would be scientific guess work. When people make these "hang 'em all" demands it needlessly weakens the case and serious assessment of just punishment.
5
You have never seen an adult asthmatic in the ER trying to breathe, or a child asthmatic who had to be hospitalized to be brought into control. The expression on their faces is sheer terror, and some of them actually do die. Does that count, when car performance and profits are to be taken into account?
Martin W. Cohen, M.D.
Martin W. Cohen, M.D.
1
The market value of VW before this announcement was over $70 billion. After fines, investigations, new rules, business disruption, court judgements, and loss of goodwill by customers and never-to-be customers $30 billion may be erased. It is easy to imagine that at the minimum executive engineering management was well aware of what was going on.
1
If we accept Mr. Winterkorn's claim that he knew of no wrong-doing, it is possible that occurred because of a "disaggregated" business model popular among large business corporations in the past few decades. The model calls for major engineering decisions to be pushed down to the lowest level and to require divisions of the company to compete against each other in a effort to lower costs. Upper and middle management levels are thinly staffed and concerned mainly with financial controls. If so, then companies should adopt much more hands-on management from the top.
2
As corporations are people and as VW/Audi/Porsche has admitted their guilt and as their crime clearly warrants a jail sentence, VW/Audi/Porsche should be jailed. I have no idea how to put a corporation in jail but I'm sure the SCOTUS gave this quite a bit of thought ahead of their Citizens United verdict. If the courts are unable to implement a jail sentence for this corporation they need to reconsider the folly of their Citizen United decision and reverse it.
On the other hand, civil penalties should treble damages and require them to recapture 3X every molecule their emission systems failed to prevent.
On the other hand, civil penalties should treble damages and require them to recapture 3X every molecule their emission systems failed to prevent.
2
This has nothing to do with Citizens United, for, as must be pointed out time and again, that case dealt specifically with campaign financing issues and, gasp, the concept of corporate personhood did NOT originate with that decision or the Roberts court, but is an idea in the law well over 100 years old. But don't let the facts bother you.
I have a highly insular Nicaraguan friend, a lowish education day laborer, been only to parts of his country and Miami. As he claims interest in US and world events, I pass on news events and they often include scandals and atrocities. On the VW story, he repeats his usual assertion "Everybody's a fraud." His reference points are the Somoza, Sandinista and City of Miami government regimes. So I asked "Well, what about you?" and "What about me?" No response.
As a cynic myself, a very human attempt at contrarianism to his viewpoint is tortured. The VW story confirms the absolute and permanent need for independent observers, checks and balances (no reference to payoffs, slush funds and illicit offshore accounts), free press, brave activism etc.
I saw one comment on the nefariousness of Germans. That's a laugh for my humble friend and Pogo as well.
Keep up the good work, those that challenge the fraudulent aspects of the existing order. Because, for want of that rhetorical nail, the whole thing will someday crash down among all of us.
As a cynic myself, a very human attempt at contrarianism to his viewpoint is tortured. The VW story confirms the absolute and permanent need for independent observers, checks and balances (no reference to payoffs, slush funds and illicit offshore accounts), free press, brave activism etc.
I saw one comment on the nefariousness of Germans. That's a laugh for my humble friend and Pogo as well.
Keep up the good work, those that challenge the fraudulent aspects of the existing order. Because, for want of that rhetorical nail, the whole thing will someday crash down among all of us.
1
It's not just corporations that try to cheat or game the system.
Do you think everyone collecting disability insurance is really disabled? That every family that filled out a FAFSA listed every asset? That every child who applied for double time on an important college entrance exam or school test on the basis of ADHD really needed it? Most of us are, I believe and hope, honest, but there are likely a significant number who push the envelope a wee bit too far.
And then there's income tax returns. And don't even get started on the lovable Boston Patriots.
Trust. But verify.
Do you think everyone collecting disability insurance is really disabled? That every family that filled out a FAFSA listed every asset? That every child who applied for double time on an important college entrance exam or school test on the basis of ADHD really needed it? Most of us are, I believe and hope, honest, but there are likely a significant number who push the envelope a wee bit too far.
And then there's income tax returns. And don't even get started on the lovable Boston Patriots.
Trust. But verify.
4
If German courts accepts amicus briefs, it will be interesting to see the environmental groups and even other nations line up to file.
1
We shouldn't be naive, VW is not the only one. Why?
1, Emission norms especially Euro 6 are out of the range diesel engines working in normal conditions (normal means acceptable by customers).
2, Business, today is short term hanky-panky, if top level managers earn 500x more average employees - Goals and Objectives will be always achieved. No matter how. I do not say they cheat, I say that they make the pressure for engineers, developers.
3, Competition creates positive feedback and the others follow the inventor. Sometimes with modifications to be smarter.
In business there was good practice that goals should be in line with SMART rule (Specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, timely). Most of the time "Realistic: is only on paper, because owners, stock market, banks do not accept realism.
1, Emission norms especially Euro 6 are out of the range diesel engines working in normal conditions (normal means acceptable by customers).
2, Business, today is short term hanky-panky, if top level managers earn 500x more average employees - Goals and Objectives will be always achieved. No matter how. I do not say they cheat, I say that they make the pressure for engineers, developers.
3, Competition creates positive feedback and the others follow the inventor. Sometimes with modifications to be smarter.
In business there was good practice that goals should be in line with SMART rule (Specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, timely). Most of the time "Realistic: is only on paper, because owners, stock market, banks do not accept realism.
2
Y'know, maybe the republicans are right. Maybe there is too much regulation in this country. Apparently so many regulations that companies feel that they have to invest gobs of $$$ into systems that deceive regulators. Imagine if VW had just spent that money on making more efficient fuel systems. What a concept.
2
Eventually more and more of the cars you would have liked to have to choose from will disappear as the whacked-out EPA rules get tough and tougher. They are leaving cleaner air, and it's all going to become a war on capitalism and the free market any more.
One should consider the problems created by US regulators for the most efficient combustion engine made. VW's actions highlight this. For example, Mercedes Benz must circulate crankcase gases through turbo chargers in US vehicles knowing it shortens the life of the turbo and compromises engine efficiency. So they won't include this failure as a warranty issue. Same thing holds true for the shortened life of gas engines forced to use gas containing ethanol. This isn't environmentally friendly regulation. It's quite the opposite when one regards the overall cost to the environment . At least European regulators get it, thank God! And that explains why diesels rule there.
2
I hate to tell you this, but turbochargers always work via exhaust gases pushing the rotor blades. That's what a turbocharger is and has always been.
And by the way, millions of cars have used turbocharging and it works just fine when properly designed.
I've read a few comments here basically stating "Oh, those nasty government regulations. If only they let the corporations do what they want". Pure and utter hogwash.
And by the way, the same tests showed the diesel BMWs to have no problems passing the tests on both the road and in the lab. So it can be done, VW just took the cheating illegal way out for that same old reason: increase profits.
And by the way, millions of cars have used turbocharging and it works just fine when properly designed.
I've read a few comments here basically stating "Oh, those nasty government regulations. If only they let the corporations do what they want". Pure and utter hogwash.
And by the way, the same tests showed the diesel BMWs to have no problems passing the tests on both the road and in the lab. So it can be done, VW just took the cheating illegal way out for that same old reason: increase profits.
1
Diesels rule there, at the cost of how many deaths due to respiratory disease from particle emissions?
well Ricky, not from crankcase gases which result in excessive oil residue forming on rotor blades, just exhaust gases. Big difference with little improvement in emissions.
Redress should include the following:
1) Jail time and personal (not corporate) fines, not just for some lowly engineers, but for top division heads and CEOs. Not merely because it's just, but because jail time will make other corporate heads think twice.
2) No golden parachutes for execs who leave VW over this. That applies regardless of whether they are criminally charged.
2) A large corporate fine for the illegality and duplicity.
3) A large environmental fine for multiple millions of vehicle years of dirty operation.
4) Compensation to the 11 million current owners of these dirty diesel lemons: Either a replacement engine that does meet emissions standards, or generous compensation, with minimal depreciation, for those owners who would like to replace their vehicle entirely, with another car of their choosing (need not be another VW).
5) Required energy and efficiency improvements to VW factories to offset the dirty emissions.
6) A "no layoffs and hold harmless" policy, to ensure that job loss over this is limited to top execs and people who are culpable, not to ordinary factory workers.
8) 15 years of disclosure to national environmental and safety regulators of VW's software - copies and documentation sufficient for regulators to test and determine that the software has no hidden "features". Much as federal regulators approve drugs before they go to market, VW will obtain approval for all software updates and patches.
1) Jail time and personal (not corporate) fines, not just for some lowly engineers, but for top division heads and CEOs. Not merely because it's just, but because jail time will make other corporate heads think twice.
2) No golden parachutes for execs who leave VW over this. That applies regardless of whether they are criminally charged.
2) A large corporate fine for the illegality and duplicity.
3) A large environmental fine for multiple millions of vehicle years of dirty operation.
4) Compensation to the 11 million current owners of these dirty diesel lemons: Either a replacement engine that does meet emissions standards, or generous compensation, with minimal depreciation, for those owners who would like to replace their vehicle entirely, with another car of their choosing (need not be another VW).
5) Required energy and efficiency improvements to VW factories to offset the dirty emissions.
6) A "no layoffs and hold harmless" policy, to ensure that job loss over this is limited to top execs and people who are culpable, not to ordinary factory workers.
8) 15 years of disclosure to national environmental and safety regulators of VW's software - copies and documentation sufficient for regulators to test and determine that the software has no hidden "features". Much as federal regulators approve drugs before they go to market, VW will obtain approval for all software updates and patches.
3
Pour guy- he only makes over 20 million USD per year. It does not matter who is responsible the real problem, besides deception, is that all that nitrous oxide has been worsening the environment since at least 2009. No way to mitigate that. Perhaps one of the consequences is that VW has to plant millions of trees to help the environment. I wonder if this is the tip of the iceberg and if other car manufacturers, worldwide, have done the same deactivating pollution controls on both gas and diesel motors?
3
Instead of resignation and retirement, Martin Winterkorn should be tried by a jury, and if found guilty put in jail.
Disgusting.
Disgusting.
1
Just another example of the do-or-die ICE culture leaving their droppings for the rest of us to pick up...thanks a lot German brethren...
"German criminal law does not allow for a company to be held responsible for crimes, but proceedings can be taken against individuals believed to have been responsible."
And this is why the Germans will be able to mop up this mess in due time. Meanwhile, the US government collects billions from GM and Toyota and yet no humans are held to account for their wrong doing while politically appointed attorneys general gripe about how hard it is to punish people for the wrongdoing the commit in the name of corporate profits.
If our nation wants to actually mitigate the growing cynicism of capitalism, then we need to take humans in to criminal account for the actions they commit under the guise of the "corporate person." Germany's examination into VW should be closely watched so the US DOJ should have to keep its promise of going after executives for corporate wrong doing "in the future."
Time will tell, but the Western corporate world will have its eyes on the German courts...
And this is why the Germans will be able to mop up this mess in due time. Meanwhile, the US government collects billions from GM and Toyota and yet no humans are held to account for their wrong doing while politically appointed attorneys general gripe about how hard it is to punish people for the wrongdoing the commit in the name of corporate profits.
If our nation wants to actually mitigate the growing cynicism of capitalism, then we need to take humans in to criminal account for the actions they commit under the guise of the "corporate person." Germany's examination into VW should be closely watched so the US DOJ should have to keep its promise of going after executives for corporate wrong doing "in the future."
Time will tell, but the Western corporate world will have its eyes on the German courts...
1
Ugh, there is just so much evil in the world. I get tired of it. He'll get a nice job somewhere and retire to his vacation home believing his own lies. I get so sick of it.
2
Prosecution and jail time for VW executives and their CEO for fraud and deception is all fine and well. But let's not lose sight of the most important solution of all: Full purchase price refunds (including fees and taxes) to rightful owners of affected vehicles. Period. Anything short of that is unacceptable to those of us who were lied to and literally taken for a ride. For example, there is no software or engine fix in existence for the emissions problem that won't also degrade performance and fuel economy on 4 cylinder diesel models. Therein lies the awful, unsolvable dilemma the company finds itself in, and consumers such as myself too who are fiscally insolvent and incapable of moving on to another vehicle. This is the bottom line.
1
At least he had the decency to do this, unlike the CEO of GM. As bad as this is on Volkswagon's part, what they did did not kill anyone. What GM did, did.
1
We don't know how many people died because of the poisonous emissions these cars spewed--it could be many more than GM killed.
By his word he didn't know of this situation, nor did any other higher-ups or any members of the board. Then obviously VW is the victim of some Asian or Eastern European hackers who gained entry to their vulnerable website and inserted this devious software............................... ha!
How soon till VW of America files for bankruptcy protection?
How soon till VW of America files for bankruptcy protection?
Sounds like VW is wasting no time to correct this blunder.
And it's sad to me -- owner of a VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI, which has been one of my favorite vehicles -- because based on my experience driving VWs, there was no reason to cheat.
And it's sad to me -- owner of a VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI, which has been one of my favorite vehicles -- because based on my experience driving VWs, there was no reason to cheat.
1
It's not a blunder. Blunder implies a mistake or oversight. This was outright lies and deceit. You don't seem to understand that the reason your TDI ran as well as it did was precisely because it was bypassing emission standards. If the car was tuned to emit less emissions it would not run so well. That's part of the outrage! If the car ran as well emitting less pollutants there would have been no reason for VW to pull this deceit.
A few resignations and recall of the vehicles seems like the lowest possible bar for justice. How about a handshake and wink for the executives and engineers who pulled off this great trick? VW buying back the vehicles from those who had the misfortune to purchase them at full cost, paying a tax to repair the damage done to the environment and serious jail time for the perpetrators of this evil lie sounds about right to me.
1
This is such a gift to the Democratic Party; I hope they use it effectively. Ask the Republican candidates for their take: Is this an example of government over-regulation and harassment of "job creators?" I wouldn't be surprised if one of them identifies the fundamental problem as those stupid clean air regulations: if not for them, automakers would not have to resort to such shenanigans!
9
Rigging the results, tilting the playing field, gaming the numbers, fudging the framework, tilting the pinball, bribing the judges, slipping through the cracks... we have created a global culture of cheating. and it will continue, because getting caught if you're a big fish just means early retirement with that golden parachute. everyone else, back to work. if you have work.
Free trade created the perfect setting for companies to lie and cheat to maximize profit. Governments fired their inspectors and allowed self monitoring with regulations. Companies like GM risked the lives of their customers to save less than a dollar per car. It is disgusting that no one from GM is sitting in jail. Self monitoring is a failed policy and must be eliminated. Restore full inspections to save lives and save the environment!
1
Yah- winterkorn didnt know about it just like christie didnt know about bridgegate ! And to hear the regulatory committee say - " we fear this will unfairly affect all of german industry..." - oh no! Not a cattle drive of innocents to the cliff again ! How unfair!
1
Neoliberal corporatist capitalism is on a tailspin. As it hits a wall against the natural environment's capacity to withstand the increased levels of exploitation demanded by the unsustainable expectations of corporate cartels, it is very likely we will see much higher incidences of fraud, deception, criminality and abuse concocted inside board rooms the world over.
The crony capitalists now in charge of the neoliberal global hegemon in the U.S. and Europe, anticipating these natural limits (on exploitation of human and natural resources) have been busy removing both, regulatory and legal infrastructure that would have protected us against their malfeasance, which explains the nexus between the almost-disappearance of adherence to the concept of moral hazard, and the rise of police militarization, and the surveillance state.
This explains why all these corporate criminals in the financial sector and many other industries are getting away with their crimes by paying what amounts to meaningless financial penalties. Since the concept of "moral hazard" is being totally ignored, it is easy to anticipate that the crimes and the social harm they cause will continue apace.
Until people have had enough. We're getting close to that.
The crony capitalists now in charge of the neoliberal global hegemon in the U.S. and Europe, anticipating these natural limits (on exploitation of human and natural resources) have been busy removing both, regulatory and legal infrastructure that would have protected us against their malfeasance, which explains the nexus between the almost-disappearance of adherence to the concept of moral hazard, and the rise of police militarization, and the surveillance state.
This explains why all these corporate criminals in the financial sector and many other industries are getting away with their crimes by paying what amounts to meaningless financial penalties. Since the concept of "moral hazard" is being totally ignored, it is easy to anticipate that the crimes and the social harm they cause will continue apace.
Until people have had enough. We're getting close to that.
1
Well at least in Germany, the CEOs take responsibility. Here in the United States, the CEOs make their subordinates take the blame. They have shareholders absorb the losses, and then they leave the company with a golden parachute
4
It is an honorable and necessary step by Volkswagen's CEO. If he played no personal role in this egregious conduct he played no role, and should be treated as such.
Volkswagen, however, should be made to pay and pay dearly for their actions, including cleaning up all the air they helped foul by their deception. It may cost billions and billions and billions of dollars, a small price for health and clear air.
Folks clamoring for extended jail terms, like an angry mob with torches, needs to take a breath, collect the facts, and focus on corrective actions rather than spewing spite and vengeance.
Volkswagen, however, should be made to pay and pay dearly for their actions, including cleaning up all the air they helped foul by their deception. It may cost billions and billions and billions of dollars, a small price for health and clear air.
Folks clamoring for extended jail terms, like an angry mob with torches, needs to take a breath, collect the facts, and focus on corrective actions rather than spewing spite and vengeance.
4
It does stretch one's credulity to accept that Winterkorn was not aware of the emission control defeat mechanisms on each of these engines. This will come out, however, as the investigation proceeds. Angela Merkel has demanded complete transparency, and it is a safe bet that she will get it. It will not surprise me if there is only a small group of people within the company who knew about the defeat mechanisms. There was only one engine affected, a 2.0 liter engine that was offered in four different model vehicles, and the design and engineering of that engine would likely have been the responsibility of one group, not multiple groups throughout the company. This is how production costs are reduced. There would be no need to involve the different manufacturing plants in the matter. And it was software - we have no idea what the features of software might be as we load it on our computers, and that is likely the case with the employees at VW who were building the cars with these engines.
For the hysterical envirogeeks who are sreaming for VW leader(s) to go to jail, the increased hydrocarbons created by the Keystone XL pipeline NOT being built -
- and that oil used in Asia instead, which it will be -
- will probably add a hundred times more carbon to the air than what the VW cars did and will.
The fact that humanity is not causing the higher temps on multiple planets is way too hard for easily fooled Leftists to comprehend, so the screaming referenced above will continue on Twitter until the next Kim Kardashian sex story breaks. Surely there will be one eventually.
- and that oil used in Asia instead, which it will be -
- will probably add a hundred times more carbon to the air than what the VW cars did and will.
The fact that humanity is not causing the higher temps on multiple planets is way too hard for easily fooled Leftists to comprehend, so the screaming referenced above will continue on Twitter until the next Kim Kardashian sex story breaks. Surely there will be one eventually.
4
Watch the minions go thoroughly sanctimonious on this one. We have a whole world of people buying right into the fossil fuel and consumerism lines of social evolution, but nothing gets them going like an emissions scandal they can understand. I will believe VW did something so terrible when even a reasonable minority of people begin to express real concern for the environment.
VW in fact did something terrible, but nothing so much worse than the minions looking the other way as they drive their carbon-carts to their hearts content.
VW in fact did something terrible, but nothing so much worse than the minions looking the other way as they drive their carbon-carts to their hearts content.
5
But I thought corporations were good global citizens and regulation was evil?
Did TV lie to me?
Did TV lie to me?
2
Corporations are people too, Go easy on them, they offend easily!
Actually, I wish we had the same fall-on-your sword culture in U.S. corporations. It's encouraging that there is talk about criminal penalties. VW needs someone to come in from the outside to handle this.
4
Winterkorn borrowed a page out of the Nuremburg playbook- "I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my part." I didn't kill anyone, it was my underlings. I was following orders?
It is not possible that this vast conspiracy to commit fraud went on without his knowledge.
It is not possible that this vast conspiracy to commit fraud went on without his knowledge.
2
Even if without his explicit knowledge, somehow there was a culture in place where multiple people thought this was an acceptable thing to do.
@M240B D.C.
A practice of committed non-involvement can be found in almost every major industry when something goes awry. It is not specifically a German feature.
Another thing. The reference to the "Nuremburg playbook" is inappropriate and offensive. Is it not possible to keep within THIS decade?
A practice of committed non-involvement can be found in almost every major industry when something goes awry. It is not specifically a German feature.
Another thing. The reference to the "Nuremburg playbook" is inappropriate and offensive. Is it not possible to keep within THIS decade?
This scandal strikes me as somewhat manufactured. With its faulty ignition switches GM killed over 100 people and injured more and no one resigned. Similar story with the Fiat-Chrysler Jeep fuel tanks. Is this furore because Americans hate anything foreign? Or because the press keeps us ignorant of corporate wrongdoing?
And, the amount of pollution that we are talking about is minuscule in the big picture. Everyone realizes that these regulations on NOx emissions are fairly new, that older cars, say the early 2000s, did not have to adhere? Cars in the US have a typical life of over 16 years. I'd be willing to bet that the NOx emissions from these 500,000 cars don't bear any comparison to the amount generated by low grade heating oil fuelled furnaces and boilers predominant in the Middle Atlantic states.
And, the amount of pollution that we are talking about is minuscule in the big picture. Everyone realizes that these regulations on NOx emissions are fairly new, that older cars, say the early 2000s, did not have to adhere? Cars in the US have a typical life of over 16 years. I'd be willing to bet that the NOx emissions from these 500,000 cars don't bear any comparison to the amount generated by low grade heating oil fuelled furnaces and boilers predominant in the Middle Atlantic states.
6
I think the thing that makes this scandal different is that the faulty ignition switches and fuel tanks and air bags were design errors that were discovered after the cars were out there. This was not a design error. It was falsification deliberately designed into the car. No one at GM said "let's design an ignition switch that will turn off the engine while the car is being driven."
You are right oil fuelled furnaces generate so little NOx emissions there is no comparison ....
Another example of how technological development has far outpaced moral development. We see this same kind of "It's OK as long as I don't get caught" thinking in our financial world, and in corporations poisoning our food and the environment and fooling the public in other ways. Those pushing for less regulation and oversight are suspect also. It goes on and on.
3
A piece of software code does not get written without someone in management approving. Not one, but several people need to be prosecuted and sent to jail. Similar software needs to be rooted out if in other cars from other brands and the same done.
7
So, LIBOR rates are fixed, US government spies on it's own citizens, Atticus Finch is a racist, German automakers cheat their customers.
Another bastion of faith falls. What next? Pope has a secret wife?
"....I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my part,” he said..."
A case of "plausible deniability"?
Probably the CEO thinks there is nothing that can tie him back to this even though he was very well aware of what was going on.
Another bastion of faith falls. What next? Pope has a secret wife?
"....I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my part,” he said..."
A case of "plausible deniability"?
Probably the CEO thinks there is nothing that can tie him back to this even though he was very well aware of what was going on.
2
I would be a prime example of the most severe corruption, if the CEO of Volkswagen personally approved of this emissions trickery software. I really doubt that he did or had any knowledge of it. There are culpable people for this atrocity. Probably mid-level and senior level managers who colluded together to do this, because of strong pressure from above to "get the job done" without added expenses. A good CEO would have extra checks and balances in practice, with an intra-departmental quality assurance task force that makes sure everything is on the up-and-up. But, that was probably revoked or never enacted due to cost cutting measures.
People who willfully do deceptive and criminal acts within a company should not be protected from prosecution by hiding behind the company shield. This is what allows so many businesses to "cheat", because those who do it do not fear any repercussions.
People who willfully do deceptive and criminal acts within a company should not be protected from prosecution by hiding behind the company shield. This is what allows so many businesses to "cheat", because those who do it do not fear any repercussions.
If Winterkorn had no knowledge of this fraud, then knowledge of it resides in those below him in the management chain. Why then is VW looking for its next leader from within? Doesn't this increase the likelihood that VW's next leader will have been directly responsible, or had knowledge of, this fiasco?
2
Huge multinational corporation caught cheating big time and the CEO claims no wrong doing on his part?
I am shocked, shocked I say!
I am shocked, shocked I say!
4
How is it different from politicians, including the president, from making similar claims when their staff engages in misconduct, such as cabinet members?
If the AG does not seek and obtain criminal indictments and convictions, then I will wage political war on this administration.
1
Can the US even indict and charge a foreign national for acts committed overseas (assuming the principle engineering took place in Germany), particularly under the circumstances alleged here? Further, while you can demand indictments for an alleged offense, you can't demand convictions without having an utter kangaroo court with pre-determined outcomes. That very idea should be an affront to any thinking person.
Let's not forget that fewer than 12 months ago -- in November 2014 -- Senator Mitch McConnell vowed "to do whatever I can to get the EPA reined in."
3
To be clear, yes, the CEO has ultimate responsibility over everyone in the company and therefore this resignation is warranted. However, that does not mean that Martin Winterkorn has done something wrong or evil. When you manage teams, you have to place trust in those that you appoint. Given the size of VW, it is highly likely that there are many layers of executives, directors, and managers. I'd be willing to bet that the pressure of creating the BEST possible car and hitting some extremely challenging goals is what made a team crack and cheat. Demanding jail time, to me, is overboard unless his subordinates admit that he was aware of and approved the cheating software. Given the international attention to this matter and the fact that they admitted/confirmed the cheating software so quickly, it seems it will only be a matter of time before the actual manager and his/her team is held accountable. In my opinion, I don't believe he was aware of this but ultimately, had to step down as CEO.
In Illinois, diesel vehicles are specifically excluded from emissions testing. In addition, testing is only required in "large" metropolitan areas, leaving approximately 70% of the landmass with no emissions testing whatsoever.
What's it like in your state? Here in "The Land of Lincoln" it seems to me the government is in on the scam. Our paper tiger preserves the illusion of air standards where there really are none.
What's it like in your state? Here in "The Land of Lincoln" it seems to me the government is in on the scam. Our paper tiger preserves the illusion of air standards where there really are none.
1
The sheer size of the potential liabilities puts Volkswagen in a position to be bailed out and then owned by the German government, the German people themselves. In the style of the US bailout to preserve vital industries, thus protecting workers and the economy. Volkswagen is much too important than to allow it to fall into chaos, much too important to the economic, trade and manufacturing stability in Germany.
The German government can and will support VW through this now very difficult time to when it can get back to a semblance of normal. To have 20% of a production line for a car manufacturer stopped from being sold in the U.S. is not normal, it is devastating.
Many people are mad at VW, the owners of the diesel vehicles in question. But none more than the German people themselves. They were duped the worst. All the good efforts made by those workers gets flushed down the tubes because of the worst kind of corporate think. What price to be paid and how long to repair this?
This episode will sure to become a textbook example to be studied for years to come. This is what cannot be done or face the consequences. I believe that this will change VW in ways not seen before. VW will not stay the same.
The German government can and will support VW through this now very difficult time to when it can get back to a semblance of normal. To have 20% of a production line for a car manufacturer stopped from being sold in the U.S. is not normal, it is devastating.
Many people are mad at VW, the owners of the diesel vehicles in question. But none more than the German people themselves. They were duped the worst. All the good efforts made by those workers gets flushed down the tubes because of the worst kind of corporate think. What price to be paid and how long to repair this?
This episode will sure to become a textbook example to be studied for years to come. This is what cannot be done or face the consequences. I believe that this will change VW in ways not seen before. VW will not stay the same.
1
This is definitely bad but is it as bad as GM knowingly turning out cars with faulty ignitions that led to people dying on the highway? Did the CEO of GM resign? Nope -- GM paid a fine.
9
I am not so much concern as to why it happened or who was involved. My main concern is how VW will correct their wrong doing for all us VW Diesel owners. The fact that my car - which I am still paying for - is not worth its value any more is not only enraging and frustrating, but also so disappointingly. How will we be compensated if any? Will my car pass the state inspection next year? Can the dealership take the cars back and give us what they are worth? These are the answers I want to hear. The EPA should reduce the penalty fees for VW so all of us owners can be compensated properly.
1
Sorry you bought a lemon but it is not the EPA's problem.
They should not reduce the penalty on VW by one penny.
VW should be forced to make it right with diesel car owners on top
of the penalties they pay to the EPA.
They should not reduce the penalty on VW by one penny.
VW should be forced to make it right with diesel car owners on top
of the penalties they pay to the EPA.
This is what free market enterprise or capitalism is all about; make profit any way you can. This is also why we should not weaken our capacity to create and enforce regulations. And, this is why the SCOTUS ruling that allows corporations to be people in terms of campaign finance needs to be seriously looked at. If not, one day we will wake up to face a reality that when it comes to profit, there is no morality.
9
When you can buy cars from China and Russia that rival anything made by your scorned capitalists, buy it.
It's interesting that this scandal appears at the same time as an op-ed article, "Whatever Happened to German America?" which decries that fact that so few Americans self-identify as having German ancestry.
Isn't it obvious why? The Germans are just bad players - from WWI to WWII to the holocaust to the Euro crisis to emissions cheating, along with a hundred other obvious examples: The Germans over the last hundred years have repeatedly betrayed the world's trust. Why would anyone want to associate themselves with that country?
Isn't it obvious why? The Germans are just bad players - from WWI to WWII to the holocaust to the Euro crisis to emissions cheating, along with a hundred other obvious examples: The Germans over the last hundred years have repeatedly betrayed the world's trust. Why would anyone want to associate themselves with that country?
Why don't you ask 1 million and more Middle East "tourists" that want to settle in Germany? One million that are willing to die on the road to get there.
@steveg, sfbay area
Really? Is all this German-bashing really necessary? The U.S. has plenty of broken promises in its past too. Best to keep on point here -- it's about cars!
Really? Is all this German-bashing really necessary? The U.S. has plenty of broken promises in its past too. Best to keep on point here -- it's about cars!
The software issues are industry wide. It's so conveneint for a dealership to say..oh, there was nothing on the software that showed this or that happened. Happened to me on three different cars, one Volkswagaon Taourag, one Allroad Audi, and another was the Toyota Rav4. It was hard to figure out what to buy that was safe after GM had the faulty ignition switch, and Ford had some issues too….argh!
6
This has to be a huge blow to so many in Germany. Their smug reaction to the U.S. spying on Ms. Merckel seemed to convey a we-are-above-such-chicanery attitude. An attitude that was, seemingly, misplaced.
Searching for an "outsider"? How about Carly Fiorina for VW C.E.O.? Her resume looks better for that job than the one she seems to be seeking.
2
Lyle should realize how many decent jobs will be opening up after Fiorina assumes the Presidency. Imagine a Chief Executive of our country who actually loves the country and cares for the people here!!
...like the way you think...
1
God help us!
She was a disaster at HP. Why foist her on another company?
She doesn't have qualifications for running a big corporation or the country.
She was a disaster at HP. Why foist her on another company?
She doesn't have qualifications for running a big corporation or the country.
Even if, by some bizarre theory of conspiracy, he really didn't know his company was cheating the emission tests, he is the main responsible person because he is the CEO - if he didn't know, then he failed as CEO because it's one of the tasks of his job to know and fix these things, therefore he didn't create the conditions to know them.
Also, since it was not an internal administrative process that detected the fraud, but a State agency, then he, as the CEO, will have to respond criminally.
Also, since it was not an internal administrative process that detected the fraud, but a State agency, then he, as the CEO, will have to respond criminally.
4
I think that it would be a good idea to see whether any other automakers are also cheating. I would start by taking a look at Daimler, who also make diesel cars for the US market.
The only way to get owners to return their cars to the dealers to have the cheat removed and performance degraded will be to redesign the state emissions tests to detect the actual exhaust. When their cars fail inspection, the owners will comply with the recall. They will then seek compensation from VW.
I wonder which other brands will fail the revised tests.
I wonder which other brands will fail the revised tests.
1
"Struggling with high labor costs?" Really? Are you serious, Mr Ewing?
How many MILLIONS of European and American families are struggling because of increasingly high corporate profit margins and grossly inflated executive compensation? My guess would be that Mr Winterkorn's severance package out of this would probably feed and clothe a couple of thousand working-class families for several years.
How many MILLIONS of European and American families are struggling because of increasingly high corporate profit margins and grossly inflated executive compensation? My guess would be that Mr Winterkorn's severance package out of this would probably feed and clothe a couple of thousand working-class families for several years.
18
If the CEO was not aware of such large scale fraud and cover up - which is highly unlikely in the extreme - then he should resign for not being responsible at all - to his customers, to his employees, to his shareholders, to his country.
1
I highly doubt that a fraud on this scale would have been undertaken by employees unless a permissive company culture was in place accompanied by heavy pressure from leadership. Beat these targets, whatever it takes! Don't bore me with the details, just get it done! Both the culture and pressure start at the top. Even if he was not specifically aware, Mr. Winterkorn surely had a hand in setting the table for this behavior.
1
You writing fairly covers the behavior of leaders like Reagan, Obama, Eric Holder and Hillary Clinton who told underlings just to make the things happen and that they would provide cover. The later such secret things happened, the more good people died, from Nicauragua to the Arizona desert to Benghazi.
Maybe VW management misunderstood and thought their cars would produce higher levels of nitrous oxide, rather than nitrogen oxide, and thereby make the world happier. Imagine that, every time a VW diesel drove by people would break out in laughter.
1
So how believable is Winterkorn doing his "I know nothing" imitation of Oberfeldwebel Hans Schultz in Hogan's Heroes? Not very since VW is by all accounts a tightly controlled hierarchical organization. It's hard to believe that this was a sort of rogue operation within VW. But if Winterkorn and other senior managers really didn't know about something as huge and consequential as this, they should all be removed for sheer incompetence.
4
If it's so easy to deceive the most sophisticated societies by skewing emissions software, what happens when they skew electronic voting machines to steal an election?
At least with pollutant emissions you have a reality to check the supposed results against, electronic voting machines don't have any quantifiable calculations except what they report...
At least with pollutant emissions you have a reality to check the supposed results against, electronic voting machines don't have any quantifiable calculations except what they report...
7
I didn't think Winterkorn would survive, but we should make a distinction between punishment and solution. Destroying VW might might salve our indignation, but it won't solve anything other than removing unwanted competition and another source of fuel-efficient vehicles.
Let's save a little indignation for the companies that continue to produce large gas-guzzling SUVs and pickups, the Americans who continue to buy them, and the regulations that encourage them to proliferate. There's more than emissions in a world where the little engines cheat and the big ones don't have to.
Let's save a little indignation for the companies that continue to produce large gas-guzzling SUVs and pickups, the Americans who continue to buy them, and the regulations that encourage them to proliferate. There's more than emissions in a world where the little engines cheat and the big ones don't have to.
2
Wonder if he'll still be eligible for jail time.
2
Recent copyright cases won by GM and John Deere affirming their ownership of our vehicle control systems may have a bright side after all. Jailbreaking has taken on a whole new dimension for our esteemed automakers.
2
Why is no one talking about whether the standard for emissions is right in the first place? What VW did was wrong, but is it the hazard claimed? -- I sometimes end up thinking the commenting public and officials are not our best and brightest.
3
Winterkorn's weasel words... " I am not aware of any wrong doing on my part" calls to mind the famous response of one Sgt. Shultz of "Hogan's Heroes" fame. " I know nothing".
2
Well, while I personally do not think this is an appropriate time for the head of Volkswagen to step down I do think a resignation is inevitable. However it would have been wiser had Dr. Winterkorn straighten thing out before resigning, right now it's just "What a mess, I am out."
The German automaker reputation is already damaged. Although regaining some of that lost trust is probable, a full recovery to the rock solid image would seem difficult. This is a great chance for other automakers to gain market share from the Germans, most notably Korean automakers.
I hope VW can learn a thing or two from this mistake, then gather themselves and keep moving with the diesel technology. It would certainly be a huge disappointment if this marks the demise of diesel engines.
The German automaker reputation is already damaged. Although regaining some of that lost trust is probable, a full recovery to the rock solid image would seem difficult. This is a great chance for other automakers to gain market share from the Germans, most notably Korean automakers.
I hope VW can learn a thing or two from this mistake, then gather themselves and keep moving with the diesel technology. It would certainly be a huge disappointment if this marks the demise of diesel engines.
18
Actually I think that once you own a German their reputation is damaged, as mine spent a lot of time being repaired.
Yeah, right... Just like what Obama did, in putting those responsible for the financial meltdown in 2008 in charge of straightening out the greed-friendliness that brought that about. I.e., let's make SURE nothing REALLY serious gets done.
Winterkorn should be treated like a (not white-collar) suspect in a serious, international criminal enterprise. He should be interrogated six ways to Sunday for a very long time by the best interrogators available (working with non-VW software and car experts) to find out all that he knew.
Winterkorn should be treated like a (not white-collar) suspect in a serious, international criminal enterprise. He should be interrogated six ways to Sunday for a very long time by the best interrogators available (working with non-VW software and car experts) to find out all that he knew.
'A thing or two from this mistake'. What do you think they can possibly learn?
CEOs come and go (and we can be sure that he takes his stock, options, rights, etc. as he goes) but mendacity and dishonesty are forever. The victims -- people and the planet -- are rarely made whole, viz., those of us who didn't speculate, cash out our houses, etc., are still losers while Dimon and Blankenfein, etc., laugh on the fantails of their yachts. VW may be temporarily tarnished but the public has a short attention span and it won't last.
8
This was to be expected, but it's going to be much more interesting to look closely at the engineering staff, and start to determine who knew what, and for how long. VW turns out to be an amazing company in that it can build you a car with whatever emissions you desire, and it has the documentation to prove it....
Maybe he was just following orders. Oh...wait a minute...he's the one giving the orders.
Another example of how corporations are contributing to the demise of society.
Another example of how corporations are contributing to the demise of society.
7
Someone high up ordered the installation of this software on those 4-cylinder engine cars. The German government needs to ferret out this person/persons out and prosecute them criminally. It's not enough that Winterhorn resigns.If, as he claims, he didn't know, then let's find out who did.
9
2nd the motion.
VW's behaviour was disgraceful. I am, however, very concerned that U.S. authorities will punish VW far more severely than it punished U.S. companies guilty of deceit and cover-up:
JPM and other U.S. banks got negligible tax-deductible fines for a variety of financial crimes while weaker European banks were fined heavily on far more spurious pretexts; BP got hit with an $ 18.7 billion fine (with total liabilities of around $ 40 billion) for the Deepwater Horizon mess while the main contractor (Halliburton) got away with a $ 1.1 billion wrist slap even though it was responsible for supplying cement capable of sealing the well in case of a leak!
The U.S. authorities are sharks smelling European blood. If they treated U.S. miscreants the same way most of them would be bankrupt. If VW is fined almost $ 20 billion for pollution cheating, how much should GM have been fined for emissions switch rigging that caused over 100 deaths? They got off with less than $ 1 billion even though GM Management hid the scandal for 10 years.
The 'Justice' meted out by the U.S. courts, the SEC and Treasury Department is indeed highly 'Selective'.
JPM and other U.S. banks got negligible tax-deductible fines for a variety of financial crimes while weaker European banks were fined heavily on far more spurious pretexts; BP got hit with an $ 18.7 billion fine (with total liabilities of around $ 40 billion) for the Deepwater Horizon mess while the main contractor (Halliburton) got away with a $ 1.1 billion wrist slap even though it was responsible for supplying cement capable of sealing the well in case of a leak!
The U.S. authorities are sharks smelling European blood. If they treated U.S. miscreants the same way most of them would be bankrupt. If VW is fined almost $ 20 billion for pollution cheating, how much should GM have been fined for emissions switch rigging that caused over 100 deaths? They got off with less than $ 1 billion even though GM Management hid the scandal for 10 years.
The 'Justice' meted out by the U.S. courts, the SEC and Treasury Department is indeed highly 'Selective'.
14
And here I thought it was GM ignition switch rigging. Guess I was wrong.
Out West, of course, it was an obvious typo: GM hid ignition switch rigging for 10 years.
Let me get this straight.
The company has publicly admitted to having committed criminal fraud.
So why are we talking about a recall? We should be talking about full refunds to every defrauded consumer who bought one of these, should we not?
The question is rhetorical, of course. We’ll have a recall for the same reason no one in the international financial business went to prison for causing the world’s greatest economic downturn since the great depression. The same reason BP got away with rendering whole parts of the Gulf of Mexico dead zones for generations to come—they simply had to pay for the right. The same reason …
Well, we could all multiply the examples many times over.
It’s because these crimes were committed by international corporations. Anyone who thinks the world is run by sovereign nation states is viewing it through a 19th-century lens. International corporations buy and sell sovereign nation states with the same ease that they hire and fire workers, and have done for decades.
The company has publicly admitted to having committed criminal fraud.
So why are we talking about a recall? We should be talking about full refunds to every defrauded consumer who bought one of these, should we not?
The question is rhetorical, of course. We’ll have a recall for the same reason no one in the international financial business went to prison for causing the world’s greatest economic downturn since the great depression. The same reason BP got away with rendering whole parts of the Gulf of Mexico dead zones for generations to come—they simply had to pay for the right. The same reason …
Well, we could all multiply the examples many times over.
It’s because these crimes were committed by international corporations. Anyone who thinks the world is run by sovereign nation states is viewing it through a 19th-century lens. International corporations buy and sell sovereign nation states with the same ease that they hire and fire workers, and have done for decades.
10
Winterkorn and his immediate subordinates need to go to prison. A top-down structure offers both great power and great responsibility for those in charge. There is no place to hide when the power overcomes the weight of responsibility.
Winterkorn and his underlings thought nothing of poisoning the air in a multitude of different countries in blind pursuit of money. Under no circumstances should they be permitted to slink away, leaving the breathing public to suffer and VW owners and workers to take the financial hit.
Strip them of all bonuses and put them in prison, preferably one with 40 times the legal amount of nitrous oxide in the air.
Winterkorn and his underlings thought nothing of poisoning the air in a multitude of different countries in blind pursuit of money. Under no circumstances should they be permitted to slink away, leaving the breathing public to suffer and VW owners and workers to take the financial hit.
Strip them of all bonuses and put them in prison, preferably one with 40 times the legal amount of nitrous oxide in the air.
4
Well, goodbye to due process and cruel and unusual punishment in one fell swipe! Well-played sir!
This is why we need to label GMOs. Don't just assume that a big company is playing by the rules. Don't just assume that scientists and engineers would not go along with breaking those rules either. No matter who ordered this, it was the engineers who had to carry it out. Those kinds of people can work in biotech just as well as they can work in the automotive industry.
1
Another GOLDEN PARACHUTE awaits this CEO. VW will layoff wage workers to pay for the fines and lost share price while continuing to lavish big money on their executives. Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the middle class, and Buyer Beware to the consumers. What a World!
8
The CEO of Volkswagen resigning is a good start. Let's be clear, it took many more people to create and implement the cover-up device and software; many more people have been complicit in this fraud. The need for government testing of any and all products of all types has all of a sudden become much clearer. It was only a matter time until evidence of fraud committed in pursuit of profits would materialize. The question now is whether this reality will be recognized and acted upon at the scale and scope that it actually exists or quietly minimized and removed from the public/media domain so that the lost profits from the fraud can be made up.
25
This was not the act of one person. I required a conspiracy. Since the fuel economy and emmisions were not as advertised, and the company knew this to be a fact, it seems this constitutes fraud. While circumventing tests may not have criminal penalties associated with it, fraud does. The VW executives that made the decisions to do this should go to jail.
1
I am tickled that WV caught VW. Yes, America has great universities which we should all be pleased to support. Well done!
5
My Jetta Sportswagen TDI was the first car I ever leased. How lucky was that?
Why is that lucky?
The auto industry worldwide uses common practices. The EPA and Justice Department need to aggressively check other manufacturers to ensure that hidden software is not spewing massive greenhouse gas into the atmosphere.
Since fines are acceptable to the industry and not a deterrent to criminal acts, the Justice Department need indict those responsible for this massive violation of trust and our laws. Only jail time for corporate executives will deflect their greed.
Since fines are acceptable to the industry and not a deterrent to criminal acts, the Justice Department need indict those responsible for this massive violation of trust and our laws. Only jail time for corporate executives will deflect their greed.
63
The emissions in question for the VW diesels are not greenhouse gases (or not significant ones) but smog-forming compounds regulated for health reasons. VW's bypassing their NOx emissions-control system almost certainly actually improved gas mileage, reducing emissions of CO2, the principal greenhouse gas.
There is no way anybody could falsify nuclear testing .
1
I would imagine other diesel fueled engines from different manufacturers may suffer a similar fate.
1
It is alarming how many things had to break right for the government for this to have been uncovered. Given how overburdened and underfunded our regulatory agencies are - and impotent in some instances as documented in the NY Times articles about this case - I wonder how many other "Volkswagens" are out there. The risk that the costs of this type of decision-making is actually borne by the human being who made the illegal decision is increasingly remote. This man and his family are laughing all the way to the bank. And in the company with many more of the current 1% in tow.
6
Now would be a good time for the DOJ to start enacting the memo about prosecuting white collar crime.
1
There have to be consequences for extraordinary greed that is willfully harmful to one's fellow man. Next up, Martin Shkreli, the 32 year old who raised the price of a drug - used by AIDS, cancer and newborns - by 5000% overnight.
10
He "resigns"?
Presumably with all his benefits, stock, and lucre intact? And who knows, maybe a nice golden parachute, to boot?
Remember back in the 1980s, when criminal investment bankers, like Boesky and Milken, were summarily arrested and led out of their workplace in hand-cuffs? And then convicted and sent to prison in at least some cases.
Until that sort of thing starts happening again, this rampant corporate criminality will continue unabated! Fines, etc, just written off as the cost of "doing business"
Presumably with all his benefits, stock, and lucre intact? And who knows, maybe a nice golden parachute, to boot?
Remember back in the 1980s, when criminal investment bankers, like Boesky and Milken, were summarily arrested and led out of their workplace in hand-cuffs? And then convicted and sent to prison in at least some cases.
Until that sort of thing starts happening again, this rampant corporate criminality will continue unabated! Fines, etc, just written off as the cost of "doing business"
8
Volkswagen has always had a problem with diesels. I bought a rabbit diesel in 1981 and the thing kept blowing the engine gaskets on going downhill. I later found out that using the engine to break down a long hill, the temperature would drop in the engine causing this problem. Before this materialized I had a gas line leak in the fuel injection system that corroded the water cooling lines. I took it to the dealer and they did nothing to repair this but charged me for regular service. They did not warn you that diesels should not be used for breaking in long down hill stretches. A guy mentioned it in a movie I was watching after having the engine replaced on the third blowout and subsequently watching the temperature gauge going down hill. Want to talk about Toyota and their carpet problem? That problem cost me over $8000 when the engine ran away, bent the turbo shaft and ruined the short block. Oh and by the way, the clutch is difficult to get our and if you are getting all this work done, it should also be replaced. I own A Lexus 350 now and am leery when the engine light goes on and the Vehicle Stability light also, and am told on two occasions that the gas cap was the problem. Psychopaths are now the norm.
6
Welcome to the club nobrainer. I owned an 80 VW diesel and also has a blown engine and multiple other problems with the vehicle. By far the worst vehicle I have ever owned. I'd never buy another VW.
Many people comment that "no one has died" because of VW's actions. No, they haven't. (Do we let bank robbers off the hook if they don't kill anyone during the commission of that crime?)
Ask anyone with emphysema, chronic bronchitis, asthma or just weak lungs if an increase in the filthy, toxic emissions in our air has no effect on their ability to breathe.
It may not have killed anyone yet, but eventually it will. Those pollutants have gone into the air that all of us breathe - whether we own a diesel VW/Audi or not.
Ask anyone with emphysema, chronic bronchitis, asthma or just weak lungs if an increase in the filthy, toxic emissions in our air has no effect on their ability to breathe.
It may not have killed anyone yet, but eventually it will. Those pollutants have gone into the air that all of us breathe - whether we own a diesel VW/Audi or not.
5
So my one question is: Who is going to prison for this corporate malfeasance? If corporations are people and people go to prison every day, who goes to prison and when and for how long for this?
People died because of GM's malfeasance and no one has gone to prison. Now this. Paying a monetary fine does nothing to stop this. People who are responsible need to pay real life consequences.
People died because of GM's malfeasance and no one has gone to prison. Now this. Paying a monetary fine does nothing to stop this. People who are responsible need to pay real life consequences.
3
So where are all the Germans who were constantly saying "everyone must follow the rules" when they tried to collect on bad loans German bankers made to the Greek government? Talk about karma oh haughty ones.
9
It blows my mind that VW would even consider putting another insider in charge. Everyone at the top of this company should face a criminal investigation as a suspect in this conspiracy.
5
THE INCONVENIENT TRUTH: As much as we accept that Mr. Winterkorn has resigned as chief executive of Volkswagen to take responsibility for the international emissions cheating scandal is fine. However, the magnitude of this CRIME demands accountability that goes beyond fines and must include Jail time for all those that participated in this criminal conspiracy. Unless these criminals are held legal accountable, other big corporation profiteers will take similar illegal actions if the bottom line profits minus any fines are worthwhile. Given the gravity of the state the World’s Climate Change issues, VW must become the poster boy to pay the price to ensure that this never, never again attempted. This is not about being vindictive, but doing what is necessary to act in a legally fair, just and responsible manner to fit the magnitude of this egregious crime that goes beyond just VW car owners.
2
Marty Winterkorn
Got his generous compensation,
Twenty five years
In the general population.
Got his generous compensation,
Twenty five years
In the general population.
1
The bigger question is: who else?
One might expect that other car manufacturers should have cried foul of the impossibility of Volkswagen's claims years ago. Since they did not, all other car manufacturers are perhaps bracing for a storm.
One might expect that other car manufacturers should have cried foul of the impossibility of Volkswagen's claims years ago. Since they did not, all other car manufacturers are perhaps bracing for a storm.
6
Why is it that the U.S. Government seems to be the leader in this investigation? Shouldn't this be something spearheaded by the German government?
1
I have had a diesel car since 1978. I wonder if the diesel Jeep, which I almost purchased this year, has similar software issues. It is time for all diesel cars to be tested before consumers find themselves with vehicles which are not in conformity with accepted standards. Is Volkswagen alone with these issues?
2
Then, of course, there's the Republican solution: get rid of the EPA. If there hadn't been all these regulations, Volkswagen wouldn't have had to cheat to get around them.
15
My Audi A3 2007 had started showing problems about 2-3 years ago. The air conditioning, locks, thing here and there. Several of them were just small simple plastic parts becoming brittle and breaking. All these issues were well-known to my mechanic, parts available and fixed, of course, for a price. I had a thought that these parts might be designed to fail in 6-8 years so that the VW would make money on the parts and repair but rejected it as a conspiracy theory. German engineers cannot ever do such a thing. Can they?
1
The problem with the way corporations work is that it's easy to hide responsibilities and fraud even when caught. As in this case, no one knows or willing to admit to who authorized the illegal and deceitful software. In cases like this as in the past, the decision to break the law merely becomes a business decision.
7
I want to see prison time. If the US constitution really says that a corporation is a citizen, then it needs to be vulnerable to the same kinds of punishments as any real flesh and blood citizen.
5
It's also well documented that large corporations (and the few people that control them) also engaged in widespread fraud and careful lies over decades to hide things like the link between cigarette smoking and horrific death from toxic cancer, the true costs (and profits) of prescription drugs, or even the probably destruction of the Earth's climate through escalating use of fossil fuels. The corporation (and transnational capital) needs wise and effective regulation. Democracy needs an informed electorate committed to truth and transparency. Given human nature and the vagaries of greed/profit, how could it ever be any other way?
1
I wish politicians would use this CEO as an example of what taking full responsibility means. he resigned. Politicians take responsibility for things that go wrong without anything ever happening to them.
VW has a "supervisory board?" And, that board has a "steering committee?" What in the world were they supervising and steering? Were they making sure that their golf scores were properly recorded at company retreats, or that the Chateau d'Yquem was the proper temperature when they convened for dessert?
The international business community should itself be incensed at the VW revelations. The VW board will claim,"How could we have known?" Customers and stockholders should rightly ask, "How could you have not?
Replacing a board that oversaw such a deliberate calamity, no matter how far removed and arrogant they might be, would be too disruptive to do at once. Customers and stockholders are already in for a lot of pain. But, over time, the international business community itself should have a way to replace, one by one, every member of a board that oversees this kind of criminal idiocy.
The entire global business community is diminished by the fraud and incompetence demonstrated by VW, and GM before them.
Barring that, there will be no alternative to some form of government regulation, perhaps fitting with a company 20% owned by regional government already – and where were they while this was going on? On the course and at the dinners most likely.
The CEO shockingly still has no clue about how serious this is; nor, does he understand that, if he did not know about it, that is worse!
The international business community should itself be incensed at the VW revelations. The VW board will claim,"How could we have known?" Customers and stockholders should rightly ask, "How could you have not?
Replacing a board that oversaw such a deliberate calamity, no matter how far removed and arrogant they might be, would be too disruptive to do at once. Customers and stockholders are already in for a lot of pain. But, over time, the international business community itself should have a way to replace, one by one, every member of a board that oversees this kind of criminal idiocy.
The entire global business community is diminished by the fraud and incompetence demonstrated by VW, and GM before them.
Barring that, there will be no alternative to some form of government regulation, perhaps fitting with a company 20% owned by regional government already – and where were they while this was going on? On the course and at the dinners most likely.
The CEO shockingly still has no clue about how serious this is; nor, does he understand that, if he did not know about it, that is worse!
1
Can the German government put this company in receivership -- fire all its leadership, hire an investigation team to get to the bottom of the story (with hopefully jail time coming.) If not, this company doesn't have a prayer going forward.
10
Not really. There's a long history of such tricks by the automobile industry; it's just that VW got caught in one of the more egregious ones. But if you look back at previous tampering with emission controls by various companies, the Ford Pinto's exploding fuel tanks, the recent GE ignition switch issue, etc., it's all a part of an industry-wide pattern.
Are we asking this because they are German or because they did something that was clearly wrong? I hope it is the latter, because I didn't hear the same suggestion when GM knowingly concealed ignition issues that resulted in 127 deaths. I do think there is insufficient prosecution in instances of corporate wrongdoing, but the suggestion that the government is better situated to lead a corporation engaged in wrongdoing is hard to fathom. We need to prosecute wrongdoers to the fullest extent of the law but we don't need to confiscate private property that belongs to shareholders, not the wrongdoers.
NYT editorial make some excellent points today demanding answers. How did it happen?
We could have those answers in a number of days if not hours. Someone out there knows (e.g., Winterkorn) but instead it will probably take years to investigate and the truth will dribble out in back-page news.
I hope the international community doesn't let this CEO float off into the sunset on his golden parachute. He has nothing but free time now: lock him in a room and demand some answers!
We could have those answers in a number of days if not hours. Someone out there knows (e.g., Winterkorn) but instead it will probably take years to investigate and the truth will dribble out in back-page news.
I hope the international community doesn't let this CEO float off into the sunset on his golden parachute. He has nothing but free time now: lock him in a room and demand some answers!
71
@mford ATL
According to Peter Mock of the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) in Germany, this problem was discovered over a year ago when tests were being run on VW Jetta & Passat models. It was discovered that an installed software program could recognize if the cars were either being tested or were in normal operation, effectively altering its emission levels.
According to Peter Mock of the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) in Germany, this problem was discovered over a year ago when tests were being run on VW Jetta & Passat models. It was discovered that an installed software program could recognize if the cars were either being tested or were in normal operation, effectively altering its emission levels.
He's probably parachuting or parasailing right now on a vacation neither of us could imagine. Likely he'll wind up on the board of another corporation soon. But this is all blowing hot air over little stuff: bad ignition, brake failures due to floormats ... there isn't a car manufacturer out there, that wouldn't cover up major defects at the cost of a few human lives. It's the corporate way.
I agree with the locking him in a room and demanding answers suggestion. Frankly, the ones locking him in a room should be all Volkswagen owners who were duped by the emissions information. What a disgrace and an incredible act of ongoing fraud. I feel like Volkswagen stole my automobile innocence from the 60s when the "bug" represented a departure from "the establishment" and clean, fun and happier times were abound. Now it's just like many of the other gas spewing hog automobiles that are out there.
German auto manufactures have reason to be worried. Read the recent Consumer Reports survey about vehicles burning an excessive amount of oil.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2015/06/excessive-oil-consum...
9 of the 13 vehicles mentioned in the report are German vehicles, including very expensive, high end models. It seems to call into question the idea of German engineering being the best in the world. Computer controlled machine tools can manufacture parts to extreme and repeated precision these days.
And to boot, burning oil also contributes to added tailpipe pollution. Something's not right here.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2015/06/excessive-oil-consum...
9 of the 13 vehicles mentioned in the report are German vehicles, including very expensive, high end models. It seems to call into question the idea of German engineering being the best in the world. Computer controlled machine tools can manufacture parts to extreme and repeated precision these days.
And to boot, burning oil also contributes to added tailpipe pollution. Something's not right here.
1
It is hard to be too harsh on what VW has done. But it leads to another question.
Is it possible to make "clean" diesel engines? Have the other manufacturers producing diesel vehicles found the magic solution? Or are all manufacturers using various techniques to avoid bad tests and give good performance.
To ponder.
Is it possible to make "clean" diesel engines? Have the other manufacturers producing diesel vehicles found the magic solution? Or are all manufacturers using various techniques to avoid bad tests and give good performance.
To ponder.
9
John, other OEMs and VW too, for that matter, have been using urea to make emissions compliant for passenger cars and light trucks. VW didn't (presumably), on these engines, because it adds cost and detracts from cargo room, plus the buyer has to make sure to add urea to the tank periodically; inexpensive but consumers may not want to worry about it. The car won't start if the urea isn't refilled
Glad to see that personal integrity and corporate environmental standards are being taken seriously here.
“I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my part,” he said.
This is up there with former Senator Jon Kyl's (R-AZ) classic about totally false comments he made about Planned Parenthood, which, he said, were "not intended to be a factual statement."
So, it either means, "I did something very wrong but I refuse to remember," "I'm having a senior moment!" or "I'm a big fat German liar."
You decide.
This is up there with former Senator Jon Kyl's (R-AZ) classic about totally false comments he made about Planned Parenthood, which, he said, were "not intended to be a factual statement."
So, it either means, "I did something very wrong but I refuse to remember," "I'm having a senior moment!" or "I'm a big fat German liar."
You decide.
2
You expressed my thought EXACTLY as I read that statement. I wasn't sure if Martin Winterkorn had known before I read his comment. Now it is completely obvious that he did. And kudos for remembering Jon Kyl.
I vote, in my best Sgt Schultz accent, for "I know NOTHING! NOTHING!"
Resigning at 68 and going "Golf"-ing.
1
Think this is bad? Wait until they discover the internal combustion engines inside each Tesla.
5
Too easy and not an example to other CEOs. Jail time!
2
1. It seems impossible this was kept secret. Too many people knew, had to know: engineers, assemblers, some mechanics, and probably some dealers.
2. Does anyone think this was the first year it's happened? How many years?
3. Does anyone believe it only happened at VW?
4. It is brilliant punishment to apply this recall and fines at THIS particular time of year, with new models already in transit, etc.
5. One expects lawsuits as well as criminal investigations, certainly in USA as well as Germany, for the deceit, lost value, etc.
2. Does anyone think this was the first year it's happened? How many years?
3. Does anyone believe it only happened at VW?
4. It is brilliant punishment to apply this recall and fines at THIS particular time of year, with new models already in transit, etc.
5. One expects lawsuits as well as criminal investigations, certainly in USA as well as Germany, for the deceit, lost value, etc.
5
It is just another example of what happens when the marketing department (Clean Diesel! High Performance!) dictates what the engineering department will do.
How very sad that we are teaching our kids that cheating is an acceptable way of business and of life, and is only wrong if you get caught (not whether people are killed or the environment ruined).
Pope Francis put it very well:
"Today everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless. As a consequence, masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized: without work, without possibilities, without any means of escape.
Human beings are themselves considered consumer goods to be used and then discarded. We have created a 'throw away' culture which is now spreading."
Pope Francis put it very well:
"Today everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless. As a consequence, masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized: without work, without possibilities, without any means of escape.
Human beings are themselves considered consumer goods to be used and then discarded. We have created a 'throw away' culture which is now spreading."
19
There is a very good movie existent that shows all of the abuse our system acts on poor people, the environment, this planet, called 'Let's make money' . I watched in disgust.
And we are all part of it.
And we are all part of it.
Nice model for the US - the company cheats and the leaders resign. Wish it happened more here.
12
Volkswagen has an enormous problem, both technical and marketing, to solve. To fix these cars will clearly reduce their performance, and getting customers to return their cars to Volkwagen dealers to have their car downgraded will be extremely difficult. The only way I can see is for Volkwagen to offer monetary compensation for the reduced performance, and it is only by the prospect of paying an even larger fine to the government for failing to fix the cars that Volkwagen will be inclined to do that. I personally wrote to my state representative asking for legislation to require that these cars be brought into compliance, and cancelling the normal six-year waiver that new cars in California usually get from emissions testing. In addition, CARB will have to come up with a way to properly ensure that the cheating is defeated in such tests, and Volkwagen should pay directly for the increased costs of doing so. I encourage others to ask for similar remedies.
67
Urea injection systems definitely turn off potential diesel buyers. I think the software trick to pass smog tests was a marketing decision.
Urea injection changes the nitrous oxides to ammonia. That is not a nice thing to breathe in traffic jams either.
Urea injection changes the nitrous oxides to ammonia. That is not a nice thing to breathe in traffic jams either.
I am not sure why anyone thinks it will be difficult to get VW and Audi owners to turn their cars in for a fix or (far more feasible from a consumer perspective) a buy-back. The profile of the owner of what had been touted as a clean-Diesel car is someone who cares about the environment first, and performance second. There are a number of immediate steps that VW/Audi could take to begin to restore public confidence and stop the continued release of these toxins by getting these vehicles off the road. They could offer loaner vehicles to all current owners of the recalled cars. If a customer rejects the loaner, they could offer a vehicle-buyback program. As an owner of a recalled vehicle myself (Audi A3 TDI), the last thing I want to do is continue driving the car to await a months' or year's long solution. all the while doing irreversible damage to my community.
1
Steve:
No, the cars don't exhaust ammonia. Here's the reaction, per Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid
> The overall reduction of NOx by urea is:
> 2(NH2)2CO + 4NO + O2 → 4N2 + 4H2O + 2CO2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid
So they exhaust ordinary diatomic nitrogen, water, and additional carbon dioxide. Retrofitting these cars for Urea injection might be appalling from a cost-of-business point of view but it would be a technically-appropriate, environmentally-sound fix.
No, the cars don't exhaust ammonia. Here's the reaction, per Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid
> The overall reduction of NOx by urea is:
> 2(NH2)2CO + 4NO + O2 → 4N2 + 4H2O + 2CO2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid
So they exhaust ordinary diatomic nitrogen, water, and additional carbon dioxide. Retrofitting these cars for Urea injection might be appalling from a cost-of-business point of view but it would be a technically-appropriate, environmentally-sound fix.
Two libertarian/Ayn Rand myths once again dispelled:
-Car companies (or any company) will always do what's best for consumers or else the free market will handle it. No, they won't -- see resistance to seat belts, air bags, smog regulations etc only because of government insistence or law.
-The EPA is worthless (or obstructionist). On the contrary, the EPA has proven over and over, despite some major mistakes, to try to safeguard clean air and water. Richard Nixon proposed and created the EPA for a reason. Without it, states would be left to the influence and political pressure of industrialist billionaires (i.e. Randian heroes) who would destroy clean air and water just to earn a few more bucks. At least the EPA's faults lie in its attempts to clean, not to deceive.
VW was happy to let cars emit 40x more pollution and gleefully advertised the cars as "clean diesel". How'd you like 40X more air pollution world wide?
-Car companies (or any company) will always do what's best for consumers or else the free market will handle it. No, they won't -- see resistance to seat belts, air bags, smog regulations etc only because of government insistence or law.
-The EPA is worthless (or obstructionist). On the contrary, the EPA has proven over and over, despite some major mistakes, to try to safeguard clean air and water. Richard Nixon proposed and created the EPA for a reason. Without it, states would be left to the influence and political pressure of industrialist billionaires (i.e. Randian heroes) who would destroy clean air and water just to earn a few more bucks. At least the EPA's faults lie in its attempts to clean, not to deceive.
VW was happy to let cars emit 40x more pollution and gleefully advertised the cars as "clean diesel". How'd you like 40X more air pollution world wide?
101
The Congress evidently does not fund the EPA sufficiently to randomly test all car manufacturer's products, and the manufacturers know it.
EPA 2015 Budget: $7 .9 Billion. Nuff said.
I've never understood the oxymoronic "clean diesel." Anyone who has been stuck in traffic behind a diesel exhaust belching vehicle has got to take a big breath of skepticism about that concept. It is still a fossil fuel.
2
This is the tip of something bigger. Mr. Winterkorn is today's fall guy. But the truth is that if VW engineers were doing this for years, engineers at other companies were aware and probably doing something similar.
This may be the auto industry version of blood doping.
This may be the auto industry version of blood doping.
30
Engineers don't have decision making power to this level. Let's not blame the people building the cars. The person at the top is responsible. The idea that the innocent top man was brought down by lots of low level engineers is silly. The corporate structure is very clear and someone very high up knew of this issue.
Obviously Winterkorn will retire with cash in hand and in many Swiss banks. Europe normally doesn't give senior managers prison time for stealing so he should be OK. Never mind the investors who just lost a fortune.
10
News coverage is very concerned with the fall in VW's stock price.
The Guardian estimates that 1 million additional tons of NOx have been illegally released into the atmosphere by VWs since 2008. How should this figure be expressed? In additional asthma deaths? In accelerated global warming? In number of children born with cognitive impairment?
Recently, the CEO of a peanut company was given 28 years in prison for knowingly selling salmonella-tainted product, causing 9 deaths. Will we see criminal charges against the executives and engineers of VW? Until we do, this behavior will never stop.
PS: Thank you, EPA.
The Guardian estimates that 1 million additional tons of NOx have been illegally released into the atmosphere by VWs since 2008. How should this figure be expressed? In additional asthma deaths? In accelerated global warming? In number of children born with cognitive impairment?
Recently, the CEO of a peanut company was given 28 years in prison for knowingly selling salmonella-tainted product, causing 9 deaths. Will we see criminal charges against the executives and engineers of VW? Until we do, this behavior will never stop.
PS: Thank you, EPA.
88
And, likewise, shouldn't the executives of General Motors be prosecuted for wilfully ignoring the defective ignition switches in their vehicles for a decade?
1
GM's ignition key, the same issue.
1
While it may not apply to the VW scandal, but in the business world, top executives are often to blame for an illegal act, even if they don't know directly of the crime.
Far too often, "the tone at the top" dictates how business is done, either ethically or unethically. Messages of "we'll hit that sales or earnings number…period!" often results in a culture where illegal acts occur to avoid the consequences.
Thus, in many cases, it's wise to start housecleaning at the top of the organization and work down.
Far too often, "the tone at the top" dictates how business is done, either ethically or unethically. Messages of "we'll hit that sales or earnings number…period!" often results in a culture where illegal acts occur to avoid the consequences.
Thus, in many cases, it's wise to start housecleaning at the top of the organization and work down.
9
Didn't anybody think to ask:
Why are we spending so much money on computer chips?
Why are we spending so much money on computer chips?
1
Why are we spending so much money on cars? I haven't owned one since 2003. It was a 1989 VW bought at auction for $2800. Ran great for 10 years, no computer, 21 - 36 mpg.
Every CEO in the world should have the sign on Harry Truman's desk:
The buck stops here.
You are the boss, you take the consequences.
The buck stops here.
You are the boss, you take the consequences.
4
Resignation is what the perp hopes for, but blessed are those who hunger and thirst after justice. Ok, ok, I may have been following the Pope a bit too closely. But there is a moral imperative in business just as urgent as in medicine, namely, Do no harm. And the harm done by VW is in orders of magnitude.
6
Besides the US, Canada is going to be investigating VW also. It doesn't matter if your are selling or making, any product that isn't what it is, food, automobile, plane, etc, the company has damaged its reputation which it may not recover from.
2
Good move. I am trying to recall whether a similar stature US bank or pharma CEO ever resigned after such a scandal. None spring to mind, but I suppose it was just our money and heath at stake, not a car.
8
Good point. Blankfein and Dimon did not resign for their behavior, not were they prosecuted. Our economy was wrecked and people lost jobs. One difference is that Blankfein and Dimon had politicians in their pockets and friends (Geithner, Paulson) in high places.
While it wasn't a public safety issue, United's CEO resigned last week after disclosures relating to his knowledge of a flight added to service the second home travel needs of the Port Authority's chairman. So yes, it happens, when good boards do their job, and it happened as recently as last week.
This is very sad. I just purchased a 2015 Passatt TDI on August 30. It is a very nice car and I really like it. So sad....
1
I would say that's rather bad timing.
Now he needs to go to jail.
4
Winterkorn reminds me of Sergeant Schultz of Hogan's Heroes; he knew nothing, nothing!
What's chilling is that history, especially in Germany, is filled with debacles taking place while those nearby "knew nothing".
What's chilling is that history, especially in Germany, is filled with debacles taking place while those nearby "knew nothing".
8
Next time you hear a German lecture the Greeks about the need to respect the rule of law, remind them of Volkswagen and the recent Deutsche Bank scandal. The Germans are no different, maybe just more efficient when it comes to corruption.
19
As this story has developed over the last few days, I can already see that one of the biggest "hits" to our planet is going to be the global rise in human cynicism. If all we can do is roll our eyes and say insightful things like "gee, what did you expect?" then I fear for our future on this earth. How are we going to muster the resolve to make changes in how we are using our planet if no one believes anything we do really makes a difference?
173
Off with their heads?
Let's face it: if the choice were between giving up summer barbecues and saving the human race, that'd be it for the human race. Our economic system encourages the worst part of our nature. If we can change that, we might have a chance. And we won't -- how many NYT readers are ready to dump capitalism? Right.
6
Human cynicism, is there any other kind?
4
This is German Engineering. Now I am a believer
So, how did the EPA find out that VW had rigged software in their vehicles?
Suppose an organization founded by a Korean felon (say one similar to the Unification Church) had the ability, and the inclination, to hack into cars' software - and say guys at an organization similar to the Unification church, big shots say, like Michael Jenkins and Michael Beard, went totally over the moon bonkers and started hacking and stalking VW, Honda, Ford, Chevy etc., looking for any edge they could give to their Koran master's partners in
the Korean auto industry, like Kia & Hundai, and also to hack and stalk Americans for, say a right-wing organization like the Tea Party . . . Would that kind of stuff come out in a right to know request at the E.P.A.?
Suppose an organization founded by a Korean felon (say one similar to the Unification Church) had the ability, and the inclination, to hack into cars' software - and say guys at an organization similar to the Unification church, big shots say, like Michael Jenkins and Michael Beard, went totally over the moon bonkers and started hacking and stalking VW, Honda, Ford, Chevy etc., looking for any edge they could give to their Koran master's partners in
the Korean auto industry, like Kia & Hundai, and also to hack and stalk Americans for, say a right-wing organization like the Tea Party . . . Would that kind of stuff come out in a right to know request at the E.P.A.?
I guess the VW Board of Directors let him resign rather than dismiss him, which should have happened much sooner than this. Too little, too late. I think it's going to be the end of VW sales in the USA for a long time to come, unless they start giving the cars away to rebuilt their reputation.
2
Either he knew about this, or did not. Either way, as the CEO, he is culpable.
If I were him, I would be setting up an appointment with my Saville Row, London Tailor right now for getting measured for some bespoke Orange Jump Suits right now.
With numbering that will go on the back of the suit to come through in a few days...
If I were him, I would be setting up an appointment with my Saville Row, London Tailor right now for getting measured for some bespoke Orange Jump Suits right now.
With numbering that will go on the back of the suit to come through in a few days...
1
All those preachy Prius drivers. Your cars are either coal or nuclear fired. What do you think either of those does to the back of your throat?
And where was the EPA in 2009 when they certified the VW clean diesel. Where they using there Mickey Mouse dynamometer because of lack of government funding?
Who is resigning at the EPA? Schlemiel schlemazzle. SHAME ON EPA!
And where was the EPA in 2009 when they certified the VW clean diesel. Where they using there Mickey Mouse dynamometer because of lack of government funding?
Who is resigning at the EPA? Schlemiel schlemazzle. SHAME ON EPA!
1
I don't know many "preachy" Prius drivers who drive a plug-in model. Most of the regular Priuses (or Prii?) are good old gasoline-powered.
The Prius has an Atkinson cycle gasoline engine. Its output is regulated by valve-timing, not a throttle plate. Another way to get closer to diesel efficiency.
What do Prius drivers have to do with this?
VW, tops in the world of the auto industry by sales lied and cheated. Band news for all VW owners of diesel cars during the period of cheating. Bad news for the environment, especially in California. That being said, let's also look at some positives in this corporate scandal: 1) No one died. 2) As opposed to GM and the banks of Wall Street and Main Street (like B of A, Wells Fargo, U.S. Bank, etc.) the CEO admitted the lying and cheating and resigned. That's a heck of a lot more than the banksters and GM's CEO did. They took a fine and are still there. VW has been wrong. No doubt. But their leader acted like the man he is and not like the U.S. CEO's who ripped off people and some from the GM scandal, died.
1
Wasn't Wintercorn's mom visiting the U.S. when he was born? So he's probably at least as American as Cruz and Obama.
And, didn't he probably get a huge, multi-million dollar golden parachute?
And, didn't he probably get a huge, multi-million dollar golden parachute?
Doesn't matter about the parachute. He was paid a *salary* of 16 million Euros a year. Lord knows what his other benefits were.
You can be certain that this CEO knew full well about a calculated, massive case of fraud inflicted upon the public in order to sell more cars. Volkswagen has been shooting to be the number one auto manufacturer worldwide for years. Apparently they will do it at any cost including wide scale fraud. Shame on you Volkswagen!
As the owner of a 2012 Golf diesel which I bought for the fuel efficiency and lighter impact on the environment, nothing short of buying my car back will satisfy. I feel deceived and cheated.
Emissions need to be tested at the tailpipe in addition to the vehicles computer as opposed to solely using the vehicles computer system(OBDII). Some states such as New Hampshire only use the OBDII allowing this massive fraud which Volkswagen has perpetrated, to occur. You can be certain other car manufacturers are doing the same thing.
It requires more expensive equipment to test tailpipe emissions but the cost to our health far outweighs the more comprehensive emissions testing.
As the owner of a 2012 Golf diesel which I bought for the fuel efficiency and lighter impact on the environment, nothing short of buying my car back will satisfy. I feel deceived and cheated.
Emissions need to be tested at the tailpipe in addition to the vehicles computer as opposed to solely using the vehicles computer system(OBDII). Some states such as New Hampshire only use the OBDII allowing this massive fraud which Volkswagen has perpetrated, to occur. You can be certain other car manufacturers are doing the same thing.
It requires more expensive equipment to test tailpipe emissions but the cost to our health far outweighs the more comprehensive emissions testing.
19
Sue them for fraud. Seriously, do it.
1
So the CEO didn't know, but 'takes responsibility' and resigns?
Taking responsibility isn't just SAYING your taking responsibility. It's actually taking responsibility by, you know, actually DOING SOMETHING.
It seems to me that the responsible thing he could have done - what a leader would do - is actually getting to the bottom of what happened, turning over evidence to prosecutors, and then throwing to the board of directors the question of whether his career is over because the wrongdoing was caused in part by his failure as a leader.
But instead, he's walked away from the problem, 'taking responsibility' by shuffling off into the sunset with his millions of Euros, leaving the company in chaos without its CEO.
Gee. What a mensch!
Taking responsibility isn't just SAYING your taking responsibility. It's actually taking responsibility by, you know, actually DOING SOMETHING.
It seems to me that the responsible thing he could have done - what a leader would do - is actually getting to the bottom of what happened, turning over evidence to prosecutors, and then throwing to the board of directors the question of whether his career is over because the wrongdoing was caused in part by his failure as a leader.
But instead, he's walked away from the problem, 'taking responsibility' by shuffling off into the sunset with his millions of Euros, leaving the company in chaos without its CEO.
Gee. What a mensch!
25
Taking responsibility is resigning. The only way to go. That is a consequence. Why would anyone trust him to "get to the bottom" of this? I wish politicians would take responsibility and resign. Whenever they take full responsibility nothing happens to them.
This cheating did not kill anyone, so America's punishment should not break the company. However, the punishment should go right up to that line.
1
It did not kill anyone at once, but each car they made is killing everything slowly...
Can you possibly be serious? If you are unaware, the pollutants released as a result of this criminal act directly cause heart disease, asthma, and cancer. Many people will be killed as a result of the million or more tons of excess pollutants released. I'd urge you to sharpen your analytical thinking skill to realize that many things have effects that don't just go "boom" and blow up in front of you.
Nonsense Ray. It has been estimated that a million extra tons of nitrogen oxides have already been dumped into the environment as a result of this cheat, with direct health consequences to many millions of people globally. Even though it may not possible to ascribe as the specific cause of death to any given individual, in my view VWs actions are far worse than the recent GM scandal, not least because it endangers the health of so many bystanders, especially the youngest, oldest, and most frail.
1
It would be interesting to know how the testing defeat software was introduced-- someone's bright idea, or as a result of normal testing and algorithm development (that is, as engine emissions software development progressed and optimizations were made, it dawned on the staff that they could cheat a little, then they realized they could cheat a lot, then the tiger took over and the CEO got eaten).
As this is a tightly run German company, the engine controller firmware delta chain is available for forensic inspection. Complete with developer names and dates... emails and IM would be needed to find out how high the rot goes though, execs don't get themselves dirty doing real work (as is obvious since execs don't need work visas to cross the pond for business reasons, but real workers do).
As this is a tightly run German company, the engine controller firmware delta chain is available for forensic inspection. Complete with developer names and dates... emails and IM would be needed to find out how high the rot goes though, execs don't get themselves dirty doing real work (as is obvious since execs don't need work visas to cross the pond for business reasons, but real workers do).
10
Hope he did not get the golden parachute as a portion of that would go to repaying me for my good faith purchase of a diesel Jetta in December based on VW's great ads on fuel and performance. Well VW quality (diesel falsehoods excepted) is still far above anything Detroit can make if only they all were a more honest and did not rely on taxpayer/consumer bailouts for their deceptions and poor decision making.
1
No, it obviously is not. But make yourself feel good for sending money outside of the country.
Sadly, I expect that this is just the beginning of auto manufacturers either "coming to Jesus" or getting caught about similar ( though hopefully not quite so blatant) cheating and evasion and specsmanship on emissions and mileage.
Auto manufacturers have always had a "racing mentality" about these things -- for those who don't follow auto racing the informal prime rules of winning are:
* don't get caught cheating
* don't get behind the other guys at cheating
Having worked as an engineer, there has been a very large cultural difference between the auto industry and the aviation industry, and this has been a result of the degree to which regulatory oversight and testing is so thorough that in aviation blatant evasions are impossible and many design errors are caught by imposed testing. Of course ... airplanes cost more as a result.
However before Americans howl too much for VW employees to go to jail, reflect on the GM ignition switch coverup. It killed about a 100 people, directly. The VW emissions cheating had heath effects which may be hard to translate into a mortality & morbidity estimate a jury will accept, but killed no one by direct vehicle failure.
Nobody from GM went to jail ... America seems unable to put corporate wrong-doers in jail, period. Let's not become sanctimonious and hypocritical here.
Car companies have been encouraged/enabled to cheat -- regulation is "a wink and a nod" for them, because that's what the public has wanted.
Auto manufacturers have always had a "racing mentality" about these things -- for those who don't follow auto racing the informal prime rules of winning are:
* don't get caught cheating
* don't get behind the other guys at cheating
Having worked as an engineer, there has been a very large cultural difference between the auto industry and the aviation industry, and this has been a result of the degree to which regulatory oversight and testing is so thorough that in aviation blatant evasions are impossible and many design errors are caught by imposed testing. Of course ... airplanes cost more as a result.
However before Americans howl too much for VW employees to go to jail, reflect on the GM ignition switch coverup. It killed about a 100 people, directly. The VW emissions cheating had heath effects which may be hard to translate into a mortality & morbidity estimate a jury will accept, but killed no one by direct vehicle failure.
Nobody from GM went to jail ... America seems unable to put corporate wrong-doers in jail, period. Let's not become sanctimonious and hypocritical here.
Car companies have been encouraged/enabled to cheat -- regulation is "a wink and a nod" for them, because that's what the public has wanted.
8
I was right with you until the last phrase, "that's what the public wanted." The public did not want to be deceived and cheated, and I doubt that it wants to see the marketplace dominated by swindlers like VW. It wants clean, efficient cars that drive well.
I read some days ago, after this drama burst into headlines, that Mr. Winterkorn used to moan "a one gram cut in emissions costs 100 millions."
Depending on how much VW has to pay in various compensations VW either saved money, or lost money.
But, as some people have pointed out, nobody has died because of VW's actions. But what VW did was and is criminal. VW and Mr. Winterkorn deserve to be hit with pretty big and heavy stick.
Depending on how much VW has to pay in various compensations VW either saved money, or lost money.
But, as some people have pointed out, nobody has died because of VW's actions. But what VW did was and is criminal. VW and Mr. Winterkorn deserve to be hit with pretty big and heavy stick.
While I have no doubt that Matthias Müller is up to the job, there are at least two indications here that Volkswagen remains in denial. First, Dr. Winterkorn should not have been allowed to resign; rather, he should have been fired for cause, and Volkswagen should have been prepared to fight to deny him severance. By letting him resign, the presidium probably agreed to a hefty severance package. This is wrong, because he "accept[s] responsibility" and he is known to be an extremely hands-on CEO. Second, the statement that “[t]he members of the presidium have determined that Prof. Dr. Winterkorn had no knowledge of manipulation of emission values" is highly concerning because of the lack of a comprehensive internal investigation to date. Simply put, the presidium couldn't possibly know right now that Winterkorn is innocent.
174
White collar criminals rule the world.
The guy at the top never explicitely commands his underlins to do illegal things. He simply give them impossible tasks, so when it blows up, "I didn't tell you to do this illegal thing!"
7
This is, of course, just the beginning. There needs to be investigations at all levels of VW, subpoenas issued, and criminal responsibility established. There will be millionaire fines to VW, not to say a great number of suits and class-actions. Regulators and policy makers around the world understand that exemplary punishment must take place in order to restore the trust of the public and ensure no other corporation wants to mislead so bluntly their trusting consumers.
3
I've purchased four new VW/Audi vehicles. Volkswagen and its leaders in this matter were immoral and illegal -- damaging to customers and the environment. The response from the public should be to refuse to buy any of their products henceforth.
1
maybe they will now have to sell off their porsche unit to make up for the (windfall) loss, and porsche will be it's own boss again. *fingers crossed*
4
This was fraud at the very highest level and should be dealt with accordingly. It's amazing how foolish decisions are based on what is perceived to be negative data that would impact sales. My guess is that Volkswagen buyers would still have purchased their vehicles even if the fuel mileage wasn't as good as what was originally advertised because a diesel by nature is more fuel efficient than a gas engine and if the pollution controls were real they still would be contributing to a clean environment.
1
If you want a marketplace with fair practices and reliable products, there must be people with the ability to confirm that all participants are acting honestly and can be made accountable if they are not. This is contrary to the assertions of the natural fairness and self policing of free markets of which we have heard so much for decades. Whenever people cannot compete by their own talents and hard work, they cheat, because nobody wants to be a loser. Cheating was an effective tactic for Volkswagen, until it was discovered, but that's all part of the risks of doing business, and it probably enabled the company to prosper. While it worked for Volkswagen it undermined trust in products that consumers are in no position to test for themselves.
1
We can (and should) point the finger at those using evasive and dishonest methods in any situation - we should also be mindful that we, the drivers and consumers that produce the carbon emissions, for requiring restrictions upon the waste produced by our gasoline gluttony.
1
Oh my. Let's ALL flagellate ourselves! I think not.
Responsibility? My left tibia: is he going to jail?
2
The toppling of "Professor" Winterkorn should offer a cautionary tale on the slick rebranding of a historically dirty technology - the diesel engine. German automakers, and VW in particular, have employed the marketing mantra of the "superiority of German engineering" to box themselves in a corner - i.e. living up to the phony hype of the oxymoronic term "clean diesel." Such slick rebrandings usually collapse under the weight of their own falsehoods.
Now's the perfect time for a new generation of automakers (Tesla, perhaps Apple) to step up and grab the baton, as it is there for the taking. The so-called "Big Three" will never do it, as they are self-consciously resigned to be followers and makers of large pickup trucks. The commitment to making true fun to drive, efficient, and environmentally friendly electric vehicles is anyway beyond their resources and creative horizons. The enterprise will take billions in start up costs, but it is worth it.
Now's the perfect time for a new generation of automakers (Tesla, perhaps Apple) to step up and grab the baton, as it is there for the taking. The so-called "Big Three" will never do it, as they are self-consciously resigned to be followers and makers of large pickup trucks. The commitment to making true fun to drive, efficient, and environmentally friendly electric vehicles is anyway beyond their resources and creative horizons. The enterprise will take billions in start up costs, but it is worth it.
3
Volkswagen's actions put their entire enterprise in jeopardy - it is catastrophic for their owners, their customers, and a planet that instead of getting 11 million vehicles' worth of pollution (using U.S. EPA standards) has instead purchased the pollution equivalent of 440 million vehicles.
11
It's also catastrophic for the local dealers who unknowingly sold these autos. Good grief, how will they ever salvage their local reputations? How would YOU like to be a local VW dealer or salesperson or mechanic? MANY USA jobs are on the line here, and VW Germany has put them all in jeopardy.
It's a start, but now it is time to disgorge profits and make the victims whole. Buy back my clunker!
9
This reminds me of an old joke
http://www.notboring.com/jokes/work/3.htm
A fellow had just been hired as the new CEO of a corporation. The CEO who was stepping down met with him privately and presented him with three numbered envelopes. "Open these if you run up against a problem you don't think you can solve," he said.
Well, things went along pretty smoothly, but six months later, sales took a downturn and he was really catching a lot of heat. About at his wit's end, he remembered the envelopes. He went to his drawer and took out the first envelope. The message read, "Blame your predecessor."
The new CEO called a press conference and tactfully laid the blame at the feet of the previous CEO. Satisfied with his comments, the press -- and Wall Street - responded positively, sales began to pick up and the problem was soon behind him.
About a year later, the company was again experiencing a slight dip in sales, combined with serious product problems. Having learned from his previous experience, the CEO quickly opened the second envelope. The message read, "Reorganize." This he did, and the company quickly rebounded.
After several consecutive profitable quarters, the company once again fell on difficult times. The CEO went to his office, closed the door and opened the third envelope.
The message said, "Prepare three envelopes."
Time to prepare 3 envelopes Winterkorn
http://www.notboring.com/jokes/work/3.htm
A fellow had just been hired as the new CEO of a corporation. The CEO who was stepping down met with him privately and presented him with three numbered envelopes. "Open these if you run up against a problem you don't think you can solve," he said.
Well, things went along pretty smoothly, but six months later, sales took a downturn and he was really catching a lot of heat. About at his wit's end, he remembered the envelopes. He went to his drawer and took out the first envelope. The message read, "Blame your predecessor."
The new CEO called a press conference and tactfully laid the blame at the feet of the previous CEO. Satisfied with his comments, the press -- and Wall Street - responded positively, sales began to pick up and the problem was soon behind him.
About a year later, the company was again experiencing a slight dip in sales, combined with serious product problems. Having learned from his previous experience, the CEO quickly opened the second envelope. The message read, "Reorganize." This he did, and the company quickly rebounded.
After several consecutive profitable quarters, the company once again fell on difficult times. The CEO went to his office, closed the door and opened the third envelope.
The message said, "Prepare three envelopes."
Time to prepare 3 envelopes Winterkorn
129
The first problem is that the cars sold cannot readily be made to comply with inspection standards, which may mean limiting engine performance permanently in making the cars comply. The second problem is possibly making diesel engine cars almost impossible to sell from now on.
The engineers and executives of Volkswagen had to understand the issue, this was not a garage mechanic tinkering. This was building a flawed car and selling the car by fakery.
The engineers and executives of Volkswagen had to understand the issue, this was not a garage mechanic tinkering. This was building a flawed car and selling the car by fakery.
123
At a price these cars can be made to comply by some combination of two things:
* retrofit the cars with urea injection and change the converter
* run the exhaust-gas recirculation (EGR) as it runs when the car "knows" it is in test mode
Customers won't like the cars after this is done. Keeping the urea-tank filled is an extra nuisance and a mild cost. Running the EGR cuts mileage, cuts power, and tends to substantially increase maintenance.
* retrofit the cars with urea injection and change the converter
* run the exhaust-gas recirculation (EGR) as it runs when the car "knows" it is in test mode
Customers won't like the cars after this is done. Keeping the urea-tank filled is an extra nuisance and a mild cost. Running the EGR cuts mileage, cuts power, and tends to substantially increase maintenance.
Meeting NOx standards is not difficult with a larger and more expensive urea injection system. VW chose not to use such a system.
Given his attention to detail, resignation is not the last step for Mr. Winterkorn.
4
No mention that the government is coming under fire about this? "The German government was also dragged in after it admitted that it already knew about “defeat devices” that can cheat emissions tests." from The Guardian.
And if the German government knew, don't you think our government also knew? I don't think it stops at VW's doorstep.
Also wonder what the golden parachute is like for all these resigning execs...
And if the German government knew, don't you think our government also knew? I don't think it stops at VW's doorstep.
Also wonder what the golden parachute is like for all these resigning execs...
18
GM must have known too.
The car I got wasn't the car you sold me ...
11
I have a 2012 Sportwagen, my second VW. I've loved their cars, so I'm very sad about this. My hope is the the U.S. government, in imposing sanctions on VW, will not leave out us consumers. The ultimate fix should be such that performance is not degraded. VW apparently does make diesel cars that meet the requirements, though they're more expensive. Maybe the fix can somehow include this technology. This is also in VW's interest. If the 500K owners of these cars (11 million worldwide) end up with a piece of junk, there will be no salvaging their reputation.
Even if Winterkorn was "not aware of any wrongdoing" there are certainly dozens, if not hundreds, of VW engineers who are perfectly aware that these shenanigans were going on. This type of deception is not the work of a single rogue programmer, and it is certainly the result of a design decision by management. If we assume typical German engineering thorougness, this code was thoroughly designed, written, reviewed and tested to make sure it did what it was supposed to do, i.e. fool emissions tests. What is surprising is that apparently nobody blew the whistle on this practice from within VW's ranks.
18
I don't for a second believe that the VW CEO wasn't aware of this strategic decision to install software that turned on the engine's emission control equipment only when the vehicle was being tested.
This is a significant manufacturing choice that would have required engineering, software development, and manufacturing departments involvement. For goodness sake, the decision affected an entire platform of VW products.
Sorry Dude, I'm not buying it.
This is a significant manufacturing choice that would have required engineering, software development, and manufacturing departments involvement. For goodness sake, the decision affected an entire platform of VW products.
Sorry Dude, I'm not buying it.
250
I is unfortunate but in a large corporation things like this can happen. Someone lower down the food chain, somewhere in the middle levels, bears the primary responsibility having caved to the pressure from above. If you remember history, there was a King who said "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest", and it was done. So the responsibility lies at the top but the execution (forgive the unintended pun) came from below. Magic sometimes happens -- if you believe.
1
Thirty years at GM, and Mary Barra still says she knew nothing about ignition switches. Preposterous!
1
That's absurd. The advantage would have been entirely gained within engine controller firmware and very few people in a company have the skills and responsibility to understand and review those details, certainly not manufacturing.
Most unfortunate. That said, the Herr Professor Doktor CEO (at 68) will retire to extreme comfort. V.W. will survive and thrive, as will Germany. Come spring, few will recall this 'scandal.' V.W. got caught with its hand in the cookie jar, but they are a global business and this too shall pass (Passat?) quickly. The German government cannot impose a fine large enough to have a major impact on V.W., so just as in Amerika, let's move on.
It seems that if you're referring to calculated, purposeful actions as "irregularities," you are not truly "taking responsibility" as you claim, Mr. Winterkorn.
5
Now, when is he going to jail?
12
That took 5X longer than it should have. Personal experience tell me that VW is such a controlled, autocratic organization that there is NO WAY senior managers didn't know about this. Perhaps not the CEO, but certainly people with "president" somewhere in their title. Those are the ones to prosecute.
27
Cheating with software? The development and implementation of software integrated with numerous systems and spread across a broad application spectrum would normally require the involvement of many people.
VW may be one of the first examples; however, expect many others to follow (and not just in the auto industry).
I don't want to be negative but various venues are teaching people that truth and right are relative. That formula is sure to give rise to more "relative rights" (as opposed to right and wrong).
www.ltgof.net
VW may be one of the first examples; however, expect many others to follow (and not just in the auto industry).
I don't want to be negative but various venues are teaching people that truth and right are relative. That formula is sure to give rise to more "relative rights" (as opposed to right and wrong).
www.ltgof.net
7
Engineering was easier w/ slave labor and air-cooled engines.
2
If he were a US CEO he could've just blamed his underlings and negotiate a better pay package with the board.
Walmart, GM, JPMorgan come to mind.
Walmart, GM, JPMorgan come to mind.
41
Although the CEO may assert he had no direct knowledge (plausible deniability) what role did he play in creating the corporate culture that made his engineers and employees believe that deceptive design and fraudulent practices were acceptable. Pushing his VP'S for results no matter what is his style and he bears responsibility. Btw wasn't the I did know it was going on a defense in the Nueremberg Trials?
Shouldn't the "Lemon Law" apply here? People should be able to return these cars for a full refund.
136
How does this make the cars lemons? We're talking about software issues and perhaps false presentation of performance data, but the cars are not unsafe or unreliable. Owners are not due a "full refund" - that's just silly.
The installation of software to bypass an emissions test doesn't strike me as the biggest deal in the world. I mean, it's not like anyone is going to lose their life *cough cough* GM*
@otherminds
@otherminds
1
Made in Germany used to be a stamp of high quality and craftsmanship. I guess that is no longer the case.
9
Loretta Lynch recently you promised to go after "Fraudster". If you dont go after this "fraud" what good will your words/promises in the futrure mean?
1
Loretta Lynch was directly responsible for letting HSBC off the hook (aside from a cost-of-doing-business fine) when it helped drug cartels and terrorist-affiliated banks launder money. Believing her is like believing in the tooth fairy.
So, come on, what's his severance package? Bet it's a doozy.
10
I am afraid falling on one's words will not resolve nor expedite resolution. VW's damage to its customers, dealers, shareholders, employees, not to mention the environment will cost the company dearly regardless of who is at the helm.
VW also damaged the reputation of the industry, and diesels as a fuel-class. While Mercedes and BMW make diesels with lower CO2 emissions than their gas-equivelent engines, they are very likely to see their investments to clean diesel not pay off. The group who busted VW included a BMW X5 diesel that passed their emission test. Will people remember?
Given the magnitude of potential liabilities they face (they have reserved about $650/vehicle for worldwide affected vehicles), I think this will take them to the verge of, if not into bankruptcy.
VW also damaged the reputation of the industry, and diesels as a fuel-class. While Mercedes and BMW make diesels with lower CO2 emissions than their gas-equivelent engines, they are very likely to see their investments to clean diesel not pay off. The group who busted VW included a BMW X5 diesel that passed their emission test. Will people remember?
Given the magnitude of potential liabilities they face (they have reserved about $650/vehicle for worldwide affected vehicles), I think this will take them to the verge of, if not into bankruptcy.
8
$650 per vehicle won't begin to cover the reduction in resale or trade-in value of the affected cars.
This article, and the associated piece on the long history of car manufacturers cheating, does give some credence to the concern of some who are at odds with the self-inspection of the Iranian government of its nuclear facilities.
If you can't trust your Buick, how can you trust someone who wants the bomb?
Deception lurks everywhere. Doing the right things isn't always easy.
If you can't trust your Buick, how can you trust someone who wants the bomb?
Deception lurks everywhere. Doing the right things isn't always easy.
10
Winterkorn had some serious nerve trying to stick it out. He was not just the CEO and a run of the mill engineer, but he is reputed to be able to pull cars apart and diagnosis problems. There is no way that he could not have known that the emission cheating was occurring.
27
Isn't it terrible? One cannot trust even the Germans. This is nothing the Geman industry should be proud of.
10
Motor Trend Magazine chose VW (both the gasoline and TDI versions) as 2015 Car of the Year. Their choice for 2014 was the Subaru Forester. I bought the Forester Turbo edition for $10,000 more for leather seats, etc. and faster pickup on premium gas (0-60 in about 6 seconds). My daughter got the regular gas PZEV version with better mileage but 2.5 seconds slower to reach 60.
VW installed a cheat-device to keep costs down and increase its pitiful 2% share of the US car market. This is German Engineering for Das Auto.
Auf Wiedersehen, Herr Winterkorn. I believe you when you say you didn't know what was going on and screwed up. Like Watergate, it was a plot by the Porsche heirs to destroy you....
VW installed a cheat-device to keep costs down and increase its pitiful 2% share of the US car market. This is German Engineering for Das Auto.
Auf Wiedersehen, Herr Winterkorn. I believe you when you say you didn't know what was going on and screwed up. Like Watergate, it was a plot by the Porsche heirs to destroy you....
The CEO version of Nixon's "I am not a crook" is "I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my part".
144
Proving once again why it's nonsense to insist that gummint be run "like a business" without specifying which one.
192
Yeah. Having worked in both before my much beloved retirement two years ago I've always gotten a chuckle out of politicians who claim that. In terms of mindless bureaucracy a large corporation is worse than the government.
1
“I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my part,” he said.
They never are. Winterkorn is either a liar or grossly incompetent. I wonder what kind of separation package he walked away with?
They never are. Winterkorn is either a liar or grossly incompetent. I wonder what kind of separation package he walked away with?
67
He made $16,755,842 last year alone.
1
If one German automaker has done this, it seems possible and maybe even likely that others around the world may have have perpetrated similar cheats. It seems like a wider, systematic investigation may be in order.
177
Interestingly, the University study found the BMW 335 diesel engine to be compliant....of course, this car was built to a higher price point, and the BMW 335 engines have been suffering lots of carbon build up due to the need for a lot of EGR to pass the tests....(google 335d intake carbon for more)
The US should adopt a gram/per/mile, not the current percentage standards....
The US should adopt a gram/per/mile, not the current percentage standards....
Next up will be automakers who build gas/electric hybrid cars. They have great fuel efficiency....or do they?
Martin Winterkorn says he is "not aware of any wrongdoing" on his part. What kind of statement is that? Does it mean there was wrongdoing, but he chose not to notice it? Or did he believe that cheating millions of well-intentioned consumers, serious about doing their part as the climate continues to change, does not constitute wrongdoing? His words are emblematic of how corporate heads get away with murder. I hope the punishment fits the crime which, in this case, is enormous.
79
Excellent point. Perhaps he wants to leave some wiggle room to later admit that he did engage in wrongdoing once all the facts are known. Kind of reminds me of Reagan's Iran-Contra apology: "A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not."
1
Why not? GM got away with murder, didn't they?
1
I must be missing something. What is the big deal? Here in Florida, they did away with emissions control during the Bush governorship. Likewise anywhere in California or Washington State, where inspections take place ( we do not have inspections in Florida ) you can go to any auto shop, right across the street from an inspections station, and get exactly the same thing done to your car, so it will pass inspection. Volkswagen simply built it into their cars. No big deal!
3
It's a big deal if like VW you market the diesel cars in question as low emission cars!
13
It may be a big deal to vehicle owners in other states where the value may drop or the performance (mileage/torque) may suffer. In the scenario you describe, the owner has knowingly taken the risk with the alteration. In the VW case, consumers believed their vehicles were designed as such and it is increasingly clear they were defrauded.
18
I think you are mistaken about California...I know of no inspection stations or shops that will tinker with your car so that it will pass inspection. We take our air quality pretty seriously out here.
Regarding you comment, "no big deal".... anyone with respiratory issues will most heartedly disagree.
Regarding you comment, "no big deal".... anyone with respiratory issues will most heartedly disagree.
38
If he says "As C.E.O. I accept responsibility for the irregularities that have been found in diesel engines", then he should have his assets seized and he should be tried for fraud, etc.
Does he really accept responsibility, or is this just VW / Audi lying again?
Does he really accept responsibility, or is this just VW / Audi lying again?
15
The cost of rigging emissions control devices on 11 Million vehicles sold over the past 5 years to deceive the public and flout the law is limited to potential EPA fines and a resignation or two? Seems to me these 11 million defective vehicles represent intentional fraud on a massive, world-wide scale. If corporations are people - see John Roberts Supreme Court - then some VW senior mgmt folks should be doing jail time in the not too distant future. Otherwise, any monetary fines are just a cost of doing business.
324
There are holes in our laws preventing that, even under EPA regulation. Read the associated article to this piece.
How about the owners of the cars? Can the cars be fixed to conform with the law? I don't think so, other than refitting them for gasoline. So lets see 11M times say 5K for new engine installed with wiring retrofit = 55 billion. Getting into range of real money. Is VW cool with that?
1
The masters of the universe are not judged as we lesser breeds.
3
He says he is not aware of anything he did wrong? He presided over truly massive fraud, fell on his sword and probably has a golden parachute. I certainly hope he faces criminal prosecution, though I am not optimistic.
32
I applaud VW for coming clean about their emissions test defeating software. Their fraud reflects badly on their brand but the actions they have taken and are taking will allow them to come back from the scandal. This is a lesson that other companies and individuals should learn from.
3
The "coming clean" came after years of denial, and deception. I'm not sure whether that warrants applause.
25
They didn't come clean. They got caught. There's a big difference.
69
@D.: "Years of denial"? EPA received a hint, a German study for the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT). It was published about a year ago: http://www.theicct.org/use-emissions-testing-light-duty-diesel-vehicles-us
1
The step-down is a doomed token gesture in my opinion, designed to stem the tide of distrust after this incident.
For me, as a consumer and not deeply knowledgeable about cars, if a company wrote code to evade an emissions test, I'd wonder what other cheat code was written into the system and how it might affect me, and I'd worry.
For me, as a consumer and not deeply knowledgeable about cars, if a company wrote code to evade an emissions test, I'd wonder what other cheat code was written into the system and how it might affect me, and I'd worry.
54
According to the CA smog ordinances alone, "A civil penalty of at least $150, but no more than $1,000, may be assessed to anyone who attempts to fraudulently obtain a smog check or inspection. This also applies to anyone who attempts to fraudulently obtain a vehicle repair or hardship waiver, or CAP assistance." These laws are intended to keep our air breathable, and Winterkorn deliberately circumvented them.
480,000 x $1000 = $480,000,000. But since that's a drop in the bucket for Herr Winterkorn, let's see him repent behind bars...next to a freeway with his Volkswagens going by.
480,000 x $1000 = $480,000,000. But since that's a drop in the bucket for Herr Winterkorn, let's see him repent behind bars...next to a freeway with his Volkswagens going by.
110
While $480 million is NOT a "drop in the bucket" for Winterkorn, who was making less than $2 million, unlike his US equivalents (see Jamie Dimon, Lloyd Blankfein, Mary (Murderer in Chief at GM) Barra, etc., he should definitely spend time in prison.
3
Note the tortured wording: "I am not aware of any wrongdoing". Does he actually think anyone will believe that a fraud of this scale could have occurred without his knowledge and consent? That a rogue element in his company -- probably dozens, possibly hundreds of VW employees -- colluded in this disaster on their own initiative? He needs to spend five years in prison.
182
Naturally, the ultimate blame falls on the CEO, but it's very possible that he didn't know.
I don't see it as far-fetched that a manager (of some sort) would keep their superiors in the dark if they thought the benefits to their division would be significant, their incentives were aligned with the performance of the division, and they believed nobody would find out anyway, particularly if they also thought that the software would be rejected (and the gains foregone), they might be reprimanded for pitching an illegal idea (a realistic assumption), and/or they were simply the ultimate decision maker with regard to that project (not everything reaches the CEO).
I don't see it as far-fetched that a manager (of some sort) would keep their superiors in the dark if they thought the benefits to their division would be significant, their incentives were aligned with the performance of the division, and they believed nobody would find out anyway, particularly if they also thought that the software would be rejected (and the gains foregone), they might be reprimanded for pitching an illegal idea (a realistic assumption), and/or they were simply the ultimate decision maker with regard to that project (not everything reaches the CEO).
And of course all these employees are blameless. They were just carrying orders.
"Steve" Do you know what a CEO of a company that size actually does? They talk to the board -- mostly about stock values. I am very sure there are senior engineers that DO know.
" It was all right when it left my area" The CEO
7
Why the gratuitous comment about high labor costs? First of all, high related to what? The corporate executives have been making record compensation and that is rarely mentioned. But the main point is that this misconduct on the emissions standards will cost the company billions. Why blame the workers who were doing their best to build a good car. Put the executives in jail and give the workers a raise.
478
The high labor costs was comment was outrageous given that they would have been much lower if VW wasn't having labor spend time cheating their consumers.
2
"Those greedy workers forced those poor millionaires and their giant multibillion-dollar company to cheat on onerous regulations based on shoddy science."
--All of the GOP and a chunk of the Democrats
--All of the GOP and a chunk of the Democrats
1
"Why the gratuitous comment about high labor costs? First of all, high related to what?"
Perhaps you didn't read the article carefully? It says '...and it is already struggling with high labor costs.'. As in, this is another problem it is facing. Ain't nothing 'gratuitous' in that as far as I can see.
It's possible that the push to cut costs had something to do with high labour costs, but the article doesn't say so.
Perhaps you didn't read the article carefully? It says '...and it is already struggling with high labor costs.'. As in, this is another problem it is facing. Ain't nothing 'gratuitous' in that as far as I can see.
It's possible that the push to cut costs had something to do with high labour costs, but the article doesn't say so.
Resignation is the least he could do. Now, it is time to compensate all the customers who are victims of his and his company's fraud with large financial settlements.
57
Financial settlements will be forthcoming; the mass tort attorney's and court will see to that.
Yet I don't quite see how a pocket full of cash will "make whole" those that bought these cars largely because of their (alleged) relative environmental cleanliness?
Yet I don't quite see how a pocket full of cash will "make whole" those that bought these cars largely because of their (alleged) relative environmental cleanliness?
1
Which begs the question...why a "large financial settlement" when it's not clear what, if any, actual financial loss individual owners may incur? Actual losses should be compensated, of course, as well as punitive fines, but the idea that this should be turned into a gravy train for buyers (or for the attorneys who are no doubt gearing up for class action suits to line their own pockets - while actual owners will get comparative pennies) is ridiculous.
5
One of the losses the owners have incurred is a significant reduction in the re-sale or trade-in price of their cars. Given the nature of the deception, if the software in the affected cars is corrected , the cars will get mileage per gallon of fuel; if not corrected there will probably be special emissions testing in states where emission tests are required and the cars probably won't pass without extensive work. Either way, a financial loss to the owners.
4
Pretty shocking, to think that Martin Winterkorn and his ilk are she same both here and abroad. Disgusting...
Germany engineering (especially in the last 60+ years) has been top of the world, and all the Volkswagen products among the best as well.
Germany engineering (especially in the last 60+ years) has been top of the world, and all the Volkswagen products among the best as well.
Quote from the home page:
"Volkswagen Chief Resigns Over Cheating on Emissions
By JACK EWING 27 minutes ago
The move by Martin Winterkorn came less than a week ..."
why did you or the Times not write something like this:
after waiting 6days longer then he should have, Mr Winterkorn finally resigned...
"Volkswagen Chief Resigns Over Cheating on Emissions
By JACK EWING 27 minutes ago
The move by Martin Winterkorn came less than a week ..."
why did you or the Times not write something like this:
after waiting 6days longer then he should have, Mr Winterkorn finally resigned...
38
Would have tendering a resignation 6 days earlier have changed anything for the affected customers?
2
Because the job of a newspaper is to report the news, not to pass judgement on the news. Tune into next week's op-ed section if you want opinions.
13
That would have been editorializing (and too long for a headline) but I agree with your sentiment about the delay in resignation.
What took him so long?
25
Considering the seriousness of the engineered deception against customers, shareholders, the environment, and breathers of air, those responsible need to be in jail. Taking retirement and taking responsibility are not even in the same ballpark.
420
Being allowed to retire (and possibly in exchange for taking responsibility) should not even be an option.
1
Yup! Golden parachutes certainly cushion the landing!! And fines? pshaw -- just a cost of doing business. Add it on to the cost of new cars -- i.e., just pass it on to the duped consumers. And then ratchet up the deception.
I agree: Calculate the cost in human health and deaths, and begin considering criminal prosecution.
I agree: Calculate the cost in human health and deaths, and begin considering criminal prosecution.
2
Actually, we need to consider the law, not how we feel. If there are criminal statues in place that would warrant prosecution, then so be it and prosecute. If these statues don't exist, then we cannot put him (them) in jail. If that's the case, then changes to the law would be justified for future incidents like this.
2