Separation of church and state, hmmm, meant that religious clerics in England who had influence in the monarchy and law, would not have it here in the new USA....
As a lifetime member of the Freedom from Religion Foundation, I am glad the organization is protesting, but as a lifelong pragmatist, I realize the futility of the protest. Nevertheless, it may motivate some people to think seriously about the problems regarding the need for separation of religion and government in this country. Moreover, it may also introduce new people to FFRF; there are surely more than 1200 New Yorkers who would be sympathetic to FFRF's causes.
9
The Freedom From Religion Foundation is in the business of persecuting other people's religious viewpoints. Not a good business to be in. No one appreciates their quest to rid the world of the benefits of faith. Practice Tolerance!
4
"It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists."
~ Mohandas Gandhi
~ Mohandas Gandhi
7
After reading with disgust the recent George Will article I find myself wanting to drown his ideology in a bathtub. Will calls Francis a reactionary. Jesus was one too. He calls Francis out for his attacking consumption, claiming that fossil fuels have helped lift many out of poverty and brought more food to the hungry. Maybe so in some parts of the world where they are being exploited by those reaping the profits, but pollution and a lack of stewardship and accountability undermine that for future generations. Not one negative word did he utter against the spread of lacklustre safety practices or any semblance of environmental protocols. In fact he labels Francis as anti-capitalist and excessively liberal. So was Jesus. In fact he was the greatest of liberals. PERIOD! As far as George Will... he isn't worthy enough to carry either's jockstrap.
5
Have the Catholic church of NY pay for the visit entirely, the police, the street cleaning and closing etc. The city streets are closed and Central Park is out of reach - because the head of Catholics is in town. As for him being the head of a state - okay, but how many heads of states had the city streets closed so some people can watch him/her pass by? Undemocratic and ridiculous.
16
As a non-Christian I am glad that the City is hosting the Pope, and especially this pope. Moral discourse is needed and he will certain offer some inspiration that will be universal.
There may be valid criticisms to make about the political influence of the Church in its diocese form, but this FFRF group seems to be making an over broad interpretation of separation of church and state. I do think costs should be borne more by the federal government than the city.
My complaint is with the media circus surrounding this visit.
There may be valid criticisms to make about the political influence of the Church in its diocese form, but this FFRF group seems to be making an over broad interpretation of separation of church and state. I do think costs should be borne more by the federal government than the city.
My complaint is with the media circus surrounding this visit.
1
And how do you feel about the millions the City is paying for this visit...unreimbursed millions. Shouldnt that money be spent on other more important things for the City.
7
As an Atheist, I have read the article and I want to give this a measured response. The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church, and the head of Vatican city, which is recognized as a City-State or form of country. So, not only is the Pope a religious leader, but also a visiting head of state, so that there are state protocols to be observed the same way as any other head of state. While I still don't believe that our government should be providing the Pope with a national pulpit from which to "preach" his religion, I see no problem with him given a platform from which to talk about political issues between the US and the Vatican. Problem is, I doubt that he can separate the two issues.
9
For those who don't know, the Vatican City State is considered as any foreign country when it comes to protocol. The U.S. is represented in the Vatican City State by Ambassador Ken Hackett. I copied the below from the Vatican website:
---------
Vatican City State was founded following the signing of the Lateran Pacts between the Holy See and Italy on February 11th 1929.
These were ratified on June 7th 1929. Its nature as a sovereign State distinct from the Holy See is universally recognized under international law...
----------
---------
Vatican City State was founded following the signing of the Lateran Pacts between the Holy See and Italy on February 11th 1929.
These were ratified on June 7th 1929. Its nature as a sovereign State distinct from the Holy See is universally recognized under international law...
----------
1
As a Catholic, I want to thank all the thoughtful atheists/agnostics who give the Constitution its due respect with regard to the Papal visit to New York.
I think you wisely appreciate what the Constitution really represents with respect to the City's involvement in the Papal visit. By providing security detail and other city services during the Popes visit, the City in NO way violates the Constitutions Establishment clause as the Freedom From Religion organization and other misguided individuals claim. If the City provided such services for ONLY Catholic or religious events, then yes it would be a violation. But the Establishment clause does NOT prevent the "state" from providing city services when the public is celebrating a religious figure or event as long as it provides services to all other entities as well. SCOTUS decision have been clear in the cases involving public school facility access to religious organizations. Such access must be made available in a manner similar to all other organizations. The visit of the Pope to New York is a direct correlation. SCOTUS has been clear in other similar cases. The City of New York provides similar services to all other events of such magnitude and thus does NOT violate the Establishment clause by providing such service to an event merely because it involves a religious figure.
I appreciate the intellectual integrity of those of you who atheists who recognize this Constitutional reality. The FFRF is just misguided here.
I think you wisely appreciate what the Constitution really represents with respect to the City's involvement in the Papal visit. By providing security detail and other city services during the Popes visit, the City in NO way violates the Constitutions Establishment clause as the Freedom From Religion organization and other misguided individuals claim. If the City provided such services for ONLY Catholic or religious events, then yes it would be a violation. But the Establishment clause does NOT prevent the "state" from providing city services when the public is celebrating a religious figure or event as long as it provides services to all other entities as well. SCOTUS decision have been clear in the cases involving public school facility access to religious organizations. Such access must be made available in a manner similar to all other organizations. The visit of the Pope to New York is a direct correlation. SCOTUS has been clear in other similar cases. The City of New York provides similar services to all other events of such magnitude and thus does NOT violate the Establishment clause by providing such service to an event merely because it involves a religious figure.
I appreciate the intellectual integrity of those of you who atheists who recognize this Constitutional reality. The FFRF is just misguided here.
5
So, atheists idolize slave owners?
2
The RCC is rich, let the Vatican/RCC in US pay for the trip and trappings. Yeah, he's a head of state and I do admire a lot about him, but separation of church & state is separation of church & state....NO COMPROMISE.
11
Is this the group that wants us to stop saying merry Christmas?
5
There are expenses related to being the nation's premier city, like dealing with popes, heads of state, and other such celebrities and notables. It's not a religious issue.
4
Forget about the Pope's religion, he is a Head of State and due the same respect, curtesy, and security as Obama receives when he visits any other country.
3
When I was a kid, my Jewish grandmother stopped to offer a ride to some nuns. I asked her why she picked them up considering we were Jewish. She said, "You never know."
6
I am an atheist, and support the work of the Freedom from Religion From Religion Foundation and Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
In this case, however, I think the battle is poorly chosen. Besides being technically a head of state as well as a religious leader, the Pope has a huge following in this country and this city. As the open city we want to be, and respecting of the religious beliefs of all our citizens, we are obligated to provide him with security (and, at the same time, to President Obama and 170 heads of state here for the U.N. meeting.
Providing security for religious leaders, from Pope to Dalai Lama to any others, is not a true threat to separation of church and state. We who are serious about enforcing that separation need to use our limited resources to address the real threats: the crosses, nativity scenes, and any other religious symbols on public property; public schools teaching religion and even leading prayers in their lunchrooms and on their football fields; courts and judges incorporating religion into their orders; the list goes on.
Yes, I'd be happier if we could get religion out of public life, with no religious holidays given federal recognition, no religion on our money or in our flag's pledge. Right now religious extremists are gaining ground in denying women rights, and presidential candidates argue about who has the biggest Bible.
Theocracy is a very real threat, and we need to choose our battles.
In this case, however, I think the battle is poorly chosen. Besides being technically a head of state as well as a religious leader, the Pope has a huge following in this country and this city. As the open city we want to be, and respecting of the religious beliefs of all our citizens, we are obligated to provide him with security (and, at the same time, to President Obama and 170 heads of state here for the U.N. meeting.
Providing security for religious leaders, from Pope to Dalai Lama to any others, is not a true threat to separation of church and state. We who are serious about enforcing that separation need to use our limited resources to address the real threats: the crosses, nativity scenes, and any other religious symbols on public property; public schools teaching religion and even leading prayers in their lunchrooms and on their football fields; courts and judges incorporating religion into their orders; the list goes on.
Yes, I'd be happier if we could get religion out of public life, with no religious holidays given federal recognition, no religion on our money or in our flag's pledge. Right now religious extremists are gaining ground in denying women rights, and presidential candidates argue about who has the biggest Bible.
Theocracy is a very real threat, and we need to choose our battles.
24
It feels like a stretch to accuse the de Blasio administration of "being in the Pope business". They are providing security for the Pope and are giving away tickets to see him him in Central Park. If they were soliciting donations for expenses related to his visit, or for Catholicism, sure. But, it seems to me they are doing things they would do for any visiting dignitary, religious, or not.
12
If he was in my front yard, I'd tell him to get off the lawn.
7
I love you atheists, skeptics and agnostics and Obama said at a prayer breakfast in 2009 that you should be welcomed to the table- but get over yourselves. The pope's visit is not about you. He's probably close to you politically. He's just a person, so please find it in your ethical humanism to accept a radical person who's not just about religion, either.
6
Aw, wake up. The pope thing is a RACKET! Did you ever read the actual history of the catholic church, or Christianity at its origin? This has nothing to do with Christianity. This is a sale of 'afterlife' for 'cash'. PS, you don't go to heaven when you die, you rot just like everything else!
17
We talk about separation of church and state but hardly practice it.
29
I have no problem with the Pope coming to the United States and given security Protection. I do feel to much is made of religion in the American Political System. I'm all for people having the right to their religious beliefs. I become very suspecious when so many wear it on their Sleve. I don't need to know who you pray to. or if you don't pray at all. Seems to me many use their beliefs as a convience for another motive. All these Judo Christians have a different view of other religions. Strange how if there is a God he or she allows war to bee fought in God's Name.
3
The Pope is actually a Head of State.
1
I know I shouldn't do this, but "Judo Christians" have a different view, alright. "Hayaaa!" Take that.
2
I do think that inviting the Pope to address Congress is a problem. Constitutionally, this places them in the position of having to grant equal time to the leaders of all the thousands of other world religions. And some members of Congress may feel pressured to listen to a speech by the leader of a religion they don't believe in, so as to avoid offending constituents.
It would have been better if a private event, like the Congressional Prayer Breakfasts, had been held for the Pope, so that those who were interested could attend.
It would have been better if a private event, like the Congressional Prayer Breakfasts, had been held for the Pope, so that those who were interested could attend.
9
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
Cherry-pick the part you like and ignore the part you don't. That's becoming the liberal-progressive way!
Cherry-pick the part you like and ignore the part you don't. That's becoming the liberal-progressive way!
2
you are amusing, the US has cherry-picked for Wasps since the brits pushed out the French in the French-Indian War. You are the ones who are the cherry pickers.
9
waspbust - "You are the ones who are the cherry pickers."
Who exactly is the "YOU" that you are referring to in the above sentence? Or doesn't it even matter to you?
Who exactly is the "YOU" that you are referring to in the above sentence? Or doesn't it even matter to you?
1
The truth of this whole bit of costly kerfuffle is that every single politician -- every single person in any sort of position of authority -- must kowtow to religion. He or she must not be an atheist; must be seen to attend church; must listen to the word of the church's religious leaders.
And we, the people who are atheists not only have no freedom from religion, we are forced to pay for it. A pox on it all.
And we, the people who are atheists not only have no freedom from religion, we are forced to pay for it. A pox on it all.
34
Like many others here I have mixed emotions about this issue. I am not anywhere close to being Catholic. My entire family hated the Roman Catholic church associating it with the Wars of Religion in Europe, the Inquisition and the IRA.
However I actually like Pope Francis and although I disagree with many of his more traditional positions feel that his stands on the environment and poverty are both progressive and a challenge that the US should act upon. There are going to be huge crowds regardless of what the City of New York does or doesn't do. Preserving as much order as possible during the event should be their number one priority. I honestly can't view this as state support of the church since the crowds will be there whether the city participates or not.
However I actually like Pope Francis and although I disagree with many of his more traditional positions feel that his stands on the environment and poverty are both progressive and a challenge that the US should act upon. There are going to be huge crowds regardless of what the City of New York does or doesn't do. Preserving as much order as possible during the event should be their number one priority. I honestly can't view this as state support of the church since the crowds will be there whether the city participates or not.
8
Your family "hated" the Catholic Church because you grew up reading textbooks written by Texans who are all wasps. Those books never write about the horrific things the Wasps did. The brits murdered millions of people in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the US, India, Pakistan, China, South Africa, and the Middle East, but no one writes about this in the US. The Dutch were some of the worst imperialists as were the Danes. The Catholic Church has had its demons, but no religion has been angelic.
10
Ok, if you are going to talk about British abuses and can't leave out Ireland
3
As an atheist Quaker, I am familiar with and support the work of the Freedom from Religion folks.
However, they should pick their battles more carefully. Someone (wink) once said, "Discretion is the better part of valor," I hear. The lines of taxpayer monies supporting a religious leader certainly blur, yet what is the option?
As pointed out in the article, the Dalai Lama has received taxpayer monies, and there are a huge number of atheists (Bill Maher to name one big name) and agnostics who find Pope Francis refreshing and worthy of support. I am certainly one.
Last, but not mentioned in the article, the pope is a head of state, the Vatican. He qualifies on that premise alone.
However, they should pick their battles more carefully. Someone (wink) once said, "Discretion is the better part of valor," I hear. The lines of taxpayer monies supporting a religious leader certainly blur, yet what is the option?
As pointed out in the article, the Dalai Lama has received taxpayer monies, and there are a huge number of atheists (Bill Maher to name one big name) and agnostics who find Pope Francis refreshing and worthy of support. I am certainly one.
Last, but not mentioned in the article, the pope is a head of state, the Vatican. He qualifies on that premise alone.
21
You'd think this pope would rather the 1.5+ million be spent on alleviating the misery of the poor, eh?
As an evangelical atheist, popes are as meaningful to me as fortunetellers--but I do know this guy has clout, and stands up against inequality. He is the head, however, of one of the most damaging organized religions in history. I guess he's trying, but how humble are you if you allow millions to be spent on your several day visit to another city?
All in all, wishing he would stay home and work on abolishing the systems of misery--including the Catholic Church.
As an evangelical atheist, popes are as meaningful to me as fortunetellers--but I do know this guy has clout, and stands up against inequality. He is the head, however, of one of the most damaging organized religions in history. I guess he's trying, but how humble are you if you allow millions to be spent on your several day visit to another city?
All in all, wishing he would stay home and work on abolishing the systems of misery--including the Catholic Church.
25
If that is your bar...why not ask the Freedom from Religion Foundation who spend money to attack small school districts to spend that money to open athiest homeless shelters or athiest job training programs. The joy the Pope brings to many minorities of faith is worth more than many useless programs that claim to lift up people, but don't.
7
Evangelical Atheist? Is this someone who believes in equality for all and who worships Mother Nature? How about asking the british royal family to stay home?What do these people do for your humanity other than to tie up the news rooms with inane news that benefits no one. The Catholic Church and Jews do more to help people around the world than any other religions.
3
Nope. How do you get that from that? It is a tongue in cheek way of saying I am an atheist and try to spread the good word of atheism to others. The British royal family never does what I tell them to--but sure, why not stay home, folks.
2
What does the separation of church and state mean? What is religious liberty? On one hand you have Freedom From Religion Foundation and on the other hand you have Kim Davis and others like; both want to impose their ways on the country as a whole.
I believe it is the Freedom From Religion Foundation that fought the City of Las Cruces, NM to have the crosses removed from the city flag disregarding the fact that in Spanish Las Cruces means the crosses. Now they have picked a fight with Belen, NM to keep a Nativity scene from being built ignoring that Belen is Spanish for Bethlehem. (BTW I am an agnostic)
As to NYC's involvement in the Pope's visit or any religious leader's visit it is right that the city provide security for the Pope and the many people who want participate in the visit. Ignoring this responsibility would invite chaos and danger. The city's involvement therefore is not an endorsement of one religion over another or imposing a singular belief on its citizens unlike the Freedom From Religion Foundation or the extreme religious right.
I believe it is the Freedom From Religion Foundation that fought the City of Las Cruces, NM to have the crosses removed from the city flag disregarding the fact that in Spanish Las Cruces means the crosses. Now they have picked a fight with Belen, NM to keep a Nativity scene from being built ignoring that Belen is Spanish for Bethlehem. (BTW I am an agnostic)
As to NYC's involvement in the Pope's visit or any religious leader's visit it is right that the city provide security for the Pope and the many people who want participate in the visit. Ignoring this responsibility would invite chaos and danger. The city's involvement therefore is not an endorsement of one religion over another or imposing a singular belief on its citizens unlike the Freedom From Religion Foundation or the extreme religious right.
2
The solution is simple - Vatican should reimburse the city.
7
As a non believer who grew up in the catholic world, I do respect the pope and see him as a world leader. As a life long New Yorker I know that a big part of NYC's place as a world city means we accept world leaders coming here. Security and logistical support is rightfully given to to the Pope , the president of Iran and any other leader that some might find offensive. We are meant to be a tolerant and accepting society. This is what makes the city great, and a great city benefits all of us.
14
Unlike, say, Columbus, Ohio, NYC is dominated by 2 religious groups --- Jews and Catholics. As a native New Yorker and former Catholic (45 years removed), that understanding still doesn't mollify my malaise that the City is spending so much promoting the visit of a Catholic prelate. Like another reader, it's only the fact that it's THIS pope that mitigates the situation. It's quite a duality --- I loathe the Church for its hypocrisy in the cases of its treatment of abusive clergy and for its extreme wealth that should be aiding the poor of this planet, yet I respect Francis for his rhetoric on economic issues such as income inequality. It's a difficult juggle.
7
Like it or not the Roman Catholic Church is an important force in human affairs throughout the world. Its works of charity and concern for the poor alone are worthy of praise. Thanks to Pope Francis the Church is now becoming a major factor in the war against environmental abuse. One need not be a believer in some kind of deity to appreciate the great good the Catholic Church is capable of.
There are, of course,some members of the Catholic Church who sometimes seem to support certain far-right so-called "Christians" in trying to replace their interpretation of Scriptures over the authority of the US Constitution. We must all be vigilant in maintaining the strict separation of Church and State. Those claiming to support "religious liberty" by condoning outright discrimination against certain minorities please take note. The Pope said it, "who am I to judge?"
There are, of course,some members of the Catholic Church who sometimes seem to support certain far-right so-called "Christians" in trying to replace their interpretation of Scriptures over the authority of the US Constitution. We must all be vigilant in maintaining the strict separation of Church and State. Those claiming to support "religious liberty" by condoning outright discrimination against certain minorities please take note. The Pope said it, "who am I to judge?"
6
I am more an atheist than any other label but we are all free to profess our belief or lack thereof and this profession of so called belief is really a profession of faith in a man who professes a belief.
Somehow he and Bernie Sanders strike me as being very much alike.
Somehow he and Bernie Sanders strike me as being very much alike.
6
I still don't know what you mean.
1
"Somehow he and Bernie Sanders strike me as being very much alike."
No, Ian, they are very different. Bernie works for absolute equality for women, does not dictate on contraception or abortion, supports full equality for gays and Lesbians, and holds for full accountability on the sexual abuse of children. They are very different men on very important issues.
No, Ian, they are very different. Bernie works for absolute equality for women, does not dictate on contraception or abortion, supports full equality for gays and Lesbians, and holds for full accountability on the sexual abuse of children. They are very different men on very important issues.
16
I don't believe I have much faith in his comment.
1
Yesterday I heard a quick comment on the tv, that this trip has become the most expensive ever in terms of security for the US.
Your only stat is John Paul II's trip in 1987, that he cost $1 million a day, equal to $1.5 million today. but I have a feeling that that is going to be small potatoes compared to this Pope's visit if he is the most expensive trip ever.
How precious that your "Jewish friend put it to me the other day, 'If it was any other pope but this pope, I'd be furious.'"
Well, I'm female, too old to be 'furious', but still young enough to be revolted.
The most expensive security cost EVER? Is that where the money that the Republicans just ripped from Planned Parenthood going to go - to pay for the 'security' of some man who thinks that women are so inferior that they are only good for dusting pews?
Come on, Times: Do your job. How much money is this costing the Federal and the state governments?
How much is it costing ME to have to pay for some misogynist to come tell me how inferior I am?
Get on that, Times.
Your only stat is John Paul II's trip in 1987, that he cost $1 million a day, equal to $1.5 million today. but I have a feeling that that is going to be small potatoes compared to this Pope's visit if he is the most expensive trip ever.
How precious that your "Jewish friend put it to me the other day, 'If it was any other pope but this pope, I'd be furious.'"
Well, I'm female, too old to be 'furious', but still young enough to be revolted.
The most expensive security cost EVER? Is that where the money that the Republicans just ripped from Planned Parenthood going to go - to pay for the 'security' of some man who thinks that women are so inferior that they are only good for dusting pews?
Come on, Times: Do your job. How much money is this costing the Federal and the state governments?
How much is it costing ME to have to pay for some misogynist to come tell me how inferior I am?
Get on that, Times.
40
The only person telling you that you are inferior is you
5
Sadly, Michael, it's obvious that you need to either get out more - or do more reading. May I suggest that you start with the Church Fathers? Tertullian? Jerome? Justin Martyr? Origen? Or were you just being silly?
5
Yes, the Church is a business, an unfair business that uses its religious status to do politicks. By the way, most atheists are individuals who don't believe in the existence of the CHRISTIAN GOD, or MUSLIM GOD. They don't deny spirituality, they just want to manage their own without interferences of religions.
22
, "Spirituality" without belief in a spirit--i.e. a transcendent reality, or some equivalent of a god--are simply kidding themselves
1
Says Jerry, the expert.
For those of us who have been fortunate enough to experience ecstatic moments, Maslow's "Peak Experiences," the Navajo Hozho, we know that if you haven't been there, you can't get it. It's like Marco Polo describing the Far East, the people thought he was nuts.
Believe me, Jerry, no deity, no anthropological spirit required to live a full, spiritual life.
For those of us who have been fortunate enough to experience ecstatic moments, Maslow's "Peak Experiences," the Navajo Hozho, we know that if you haven't been there, you can't get it. It's like Marco Polo describing the Far East, the people thought he was nuts.
Believe me, Jerry, no deity, no anthropological spirit required to live a full, spiritual life.
3
I deny spirituality. Whatever the heck that is.
2
The Times needs to stop apologizing for intrusion into government by religion. Secularists need to wake up to the fact that no one will fight for them if they don't fight for themselves. Atheists are so despised that gay rights groups like the Human Rights Campaign refused our help in fighting Boy Scouts discrimination. The Times needs to stop telling atheists to put up with injustices. Secularists need to learn from the gay rights movement that there's no use putting up with injustices in the long run. No amount of acquiescence will placate the religious, who understand that our very existence proves there's an alternative to worshipping gods.
29
The history of this country shows that freedom for religion was one of the strongest motivations for coming here. 25 years after the Bill of Rights was written, an Anglican mass was celebrated every Sunday in the Capital
Only under the Dutch in New York was this considered a secular society.
The atheiths should learn to live with us.
Only under the Dutch in New York was this considered a secular society.
The atheiths should learn to live with us.
2
The Dutch people are the most tolerant people on earth.
Despite a horrific civil war against its colonial master Spain which used the Inquisition as a tool of the war there was no persecution of Catholics after the war ended. In fact the Catholics themselves became so disgusted by the use of the Inquisition that they joined the mostly Protestant rebels and fought beside them.
It welcomed dissidents from all over Europe who were being persecuted for their religious beliefs.
My Huguenot ancestors found a home there after being persecuted in their homeland, France and in England and Germany finally settling here in Nieu Amsterdam.
A pity that after they captured the city in 1664 the English immediately imposed a tax on all the citizens to support the Church Of England regardless of religious affiliation. Even the Jews who had arrived in 1653 (the same year as my French ancestors) had to pay the tax.
A pity the Dutch didn't try harder to keep their colony in what is now New York, New Jersey and Delaware. Things might have been so much different and possibly better.
Despite a horrific civil war against its colonial master Spain which used the Inquisition as a tool of the war there was no persecution of Catholics after the war ended. In fact the Catholics themselves became so disgusted by the use of the Inquisition that they joined the mostly Protestant rebels and fought beside them.
It welcomed dissidents from all over Europe who were being persecuted for their religious beliefs.
My Huguenot ancestors found a home there after being persecuted in their homeland, France and in England and Germany finally settling here in Nieu Amsterdam.
A pity that after they captured the city in 1664 the English immediately imposed a tax on all the citizens to support the Church Of England regardless of religious affiliation. Even the Jews who had arrived in 1653 (the same year as my French ancestors) had to pay the tax.
A pity the Dutch didn't try harder to keep their colony in what is now New York, New Jersey and Delaware. Things might have been so much different and possibly better.
5
After their arrival in the renamed New Amsterdam to New York the English quickly set about to eliminate the Dutch churches. a tax was levied on all citizens to support the Church Of England and a reward of £1000 was given to any church willing to join it. The social climbers like the Hyde Park Roosevelts jumped on it an immediately arranged marriages with the English.
One reason for it was the English dislike for Presbyterians of which the Dutch Church was a near cousin and a home to Scots as well as the Dutch.
One reason for it was the English dislike for Presbyterians of which the Dutch Church was a near cousin and a home to Scots as well as the Dutch.
1
A much greater issue than New York's participation is Philadelphia's. Who is going to pay the millions of dollars that are being spent in Philadelphia so that the Pope can say Mass? In theory, it will be the World Meeting of Families, but we all learned last week that there is in fact no contract in place to reimburse the city. Where are the organizations dedicated to the separation of church and state when we need them?
14
If one must drag religion into it, what's the cost when the Queen of England (who is head of the Anglican Church) visits the USA? What's the cost when the Dalai Lama is here?
While we're at it, tell me the cost of providing security, etc. when the UN meets this week & next - what does it cost to protect those bigwigs, many of whom have an actively anti-American POV?
Meanwhile, the "Freedom from Religion" group is barking up the wrong tree. I don't want THEIR beliefs shoved down my throat.