No. Trump is the monster the Protestant Work Ethic created.
10
The values of most, (not all) evangelicals, in practice, are not synonymous with the values preached by Christ in my head, anyway, so I see no problem with their blowing whichever way the wind blows, cheering Donald Trump at Liberty U, supporting torture, hating gay people, being religious bigots, bullying people who do not threaten them, slurring the President for years, harassing women's healthcare. It is who they are, Mr Moore.
That they jumped on board with Trump with nary a look backward says it all- they want to win and to grind other people into the ground- they want an authoritarian, not a grown up spiritual practice. The "us versus them" is the ground floor in this kind of fundamentalist thinking. Mr. Moore must be naive is about the nicest thing one can offer as an excuse for his cluelessness.
That they jumped on board with Trump with nary a look backward says it all- they want to win and to grind other people into the ground- they want an authoritarian, not a grown up spiritual practice. The "us versus them" is the ground floor in this kind of fundamentalist thinking. Mr. Moore must be naive is about the nicest thing one can offer as an excuse for his cluelessness.
48
When I young I was brought up believing the old trope, "It's not whether you win or lose but how you play the game that counts."
It's not a religious statement. But it is one that has spiritual overtones.
Cheating, bragging, bad sportsmanship, were all considered the mark of a loser.
Today our children are being brought up to believe that, "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
Cheating, bragging, bad sportsmanship, and the like are becoming more acceptable in our society.
The poster child for this revolution in thought is Mr. Trump.
Here is a man that has elevated his vices into his greatest selling points.
He will lie, cheat, steal, gamble, belittle, insult, demean, and just about anything else he needs to do to be a "winner".
To Mr. Trump, honor, integrity, and humility, are for "losers".
As a nation, we are defined by those we choose as our leaders.
When you go to the polls, think carefully about who you want as the face of your country.
It's not a religious statement. But it is one that has spiritual overtones.
Cheating, bragging, bad sportsmanship, were all considered the mark of a loser.
Today our children are being brought up to believe that, "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
Cheating, bragging, bad sportsmanship, and the like are becoming more acceptable in our society.
The poster child for this revolution in thought is Mr. Trump.
Here is a man that has elevated his vices into his greatest selling points.
He will lie, cheat, steal, gamble, belittle, insult, demean, and just about anything else he needs to do to be a "winner".
To Mr. Trump, honor, integrity, and humility, are for "losers".
As a nation, we are defined by those we choose as our leaders.
When you go to the polls, think carefully about who you want as the face of your country.
36
To be honest, I would prefer Trump over Ben Carson, who I find really scary: a doctor who denies evolution, how crazy is that?!? Just when you think it can't get any more bizarre with Republicans, they take it to the next level of zaniness.
14
It is no surprise that a religious congregation is referred to as a flock, as is a gathering of sheep. A great number of the flock can be led by anyone who uses the right buzzwords loud enough. The republican's success for many years has been based on convincing people to vote for a candidate who is not representing their best interests. Donald Trump is not that different than other republicans of the past.
22
As a Christian, I agree with all of you that Mr. Trump should not be supported by evangelical Christians. I also think the church has made a poor choice in becoming bedfellows with Republican, Right-wing politics.
One thing I wish I was able to do as I read these comments is to sit down with many of you and let you see whether I am so closed minded or unintelligent as you would seem to have decided. I know it is very difficult to imagine that I would believe an ancient book or that I would believe that God came from heaven as man to die for me.
It scares me when I read these comments to see the hatred for anyone of Christian faith. Jesus said this would be the case in the book of Luke, but it still saddens me. If you spent time with me we would disagree, but I would still welcome you into my home and try to show you love.
There are those of us in the Christian world who believe the Bible is inerrant, and try to fulfill all of it as well as we can with God's help. One of God's greatest calls to us is that of hospitality, or love to the outsider, even those outside of our views. Many of us will continue to strive to live this out until God returns, even to those who hate our views.
I pray that someone will come into your lives who will change your view on us, even if you don't change your beliefs. As a Christian, I know that I am not perfect, and I am only right with God because of someone else (See Ephesians 2:1 - 10).
One thing I wish I was able to do as I read these comments is to sit down with many of you and let you see whether I am so closed minded or unintelligent as you would seem to have decided. I know it is very difficult to imagine that I would believe an ancient book or that I would believe that God came from heaven as man to die for me.
It scares me when I read these comments to see the hatred for anyone of Christian faith. Jesus said this would be the case in the book of Luke, but it still saddens me. If you spent time with me we would disagree, but I would still welcome you into my home and try to show you love.
There are those of us in the Christian world who believe the Bible is inerrant, and try to fulfill all of it as well as we can with God's help. One of God's greatest calls to us is that of hospitality, or love to the outsider, even those outside of our views. Many of us will continue to strive to live this out until God returns, even to those who hate our views.
I pray that someone will come into your lives who will change your view on us, even if you don't change your beliefs. As a Christian, I know that I am not perfect, and I am only right with God because of someone else (See Ephesians 2:1 - 10).
16
AS a conservative Christian who worked in Washington earlier in my career, I want trump elected, Boehner and McConnel forced to wear dresses until they retire, everyone employed by the RNC fired, and the Federal government downsized.
Former employees can help build the fence.
Former employees can help build the fence.
2
I can hardly believe anything would make me speak up for Donald Trump, but here it is: unlike most of today's GOP, Trump doesn't claim to be carrying out God's will, nor does he confuse the Bible with the Constitution.
Are you confused by the evangelicals flocking to support an unashamed adulterer? Look no further than the American Taliban's folk heroine Kim Davis with her multiple marriages and out-of-wedlock children. A significant number of the "faithful" are just haters hiding behind a cross — and they're willing to suspend the rules for anyone who promises to fight their imagined enemies for them.
Are you confused by the evangelicals flocking to support an unashamed adulterer? Look no further than the American Taliban's folk heroine Kim Davis with her multiple marriages and out-of-wedlock children. A significant number of the "faithful" are just haters hiding behind a cross — and they're willing to suspend the rules for anyone who promises to fight their imagined enemies for them.
27
Judgmentalism, whether it be of Trump, Bill and Hillary, Anthony Weiner or whomever, is what will ultimately cost evangelicals. Better that they stay in the closet and pray for their own salvation than cast stones at others.
9
And yet...Trump was an honored speaker three years ago at Liberty University --lauded by Falwell Jr. and even given an honorary doctorate. (Very timely, given the recent coverage of Bernie Sanders speaking there this week.) http://www.liberty.edu/news/index.cfm?PID=18495&MID=65182
7
That was an extremely great piece of writing by Mr. Moore. As a Democrat and as non-Christian (I would just live a life of treating people nicely) I still agreed with everything he said. The world is a better place when instant gratification is not rewarded, people are worth more than their looks, and humility (the practice I adore most about Christianity) is promoted.
However, why must he use the word "Culture War". Given his clear Christian underpinnings, it's unseemly and speaks to why the "religious right" and, to be frank, hard-working, family loving folks on the left who are not so into outward religion/proselytizing won't get along.
To me, it says that Mr. Moore's agenda needs to win and win at all costs. As he stated, the country was founded upon religious freedom and liberties and when he uses words like "Culture War" -- it says to me that they won't stop at anything until Christian law and ways win.
In a free society, there can't be "culture wars" that really win on a legal level. If he wants people to act socially responsible, then religion and society need to reward that -- make work pay, guarantee good schools, a clean environment, guarantee health-care that is not connected to work, etc.
Just scan the TV or social media and you'll see he's losing the culture wars pretty badly. Perhaps society needs to back him up.
However, why must he use the word "Culture War". Given his clear Christian underpinnings, it's unseemly and speaks to why the "religious right" and, to be frank, hard-working, family loving folks on the left who are not so into outward religion/proselytizing won't get along.
To me, it says that Mr. Moore's agenda needs to win and win at all costs. As he stated, the country was founded upon religious freedom and liberties and when he uses words like "Culture War" -- it says to me that they won't stop at anything until Christian law and ways win.
In a free society, there can't be "culture wars" that really win on a legal level. If he wants people to act socially responsible, then religion and society need to reward that -- make work pay, guarantee good schools, a clean environment, guarantee health-care that is not connected to work, etc.
Just scan the TV or social media and you'll see he's losing the culture wars pretty badly. Perhaps society needs to back him up.
27
The entire GOP field, including the few rational ones who show a modicum of thought on issues that I do care about, universally lose my (and most everyone else I know) interest the minute they start trotting out bible quotes, and calling Jesus their best friend.
The venomous dislike of the LGBT community along the degradation of their lives,and years of taunting during the AIDs crisis pretty much sealed their fate with me and in most of urban, rational America.
Pimping scripture to uphold greed and bigotry, often while supporting some amazingly hypocritical politicos, all coated with a thin layer of patriotism while being as thoroughly un-Christian as humanly possible, made them the pariahs they've turned into. I don't think the GOP will ever recover from the damage inflicted by them. The rational republicans left years ago.
The venomous dislike of the LGBT community along the degradation of their lives,and years of taunting during the AIDs crisis pretty much sealed their fate with me and in most of urban, rational America.
Pimping scripture to uphold greed and bigotry, often while supporting some amazingly hypocritical politicos, all coated with a thin layer of patriotism while being as thoroughly un-Christian as humanly possible, made them the pariahs they've turned into. I don't think the GOP will ever recover from the damage inflicted by them. The rational republicans left years ago.
17
The Times, true as usual to its ongoing pose of disengaged smug bafflement about anything that happens outside Manhattan, misses the point.
The fundamental liberty for Conservatives, millions of Evangelicals included, is the freedom to indulge in pathological subjectivity and to deny the very idea of fact. The most visible version of this is to escalate the slightest assumption to the status of a religious conviction, a la Kim Davis, and then to demand that their insanity be protected as a Constitutional prerogative.
Donald Trump is his own religious icon. His life story is anything he wants it to be, for any reason, without any explanation, subject to no facts at all, and if he is ever called out on any of this he accuses the questioner of playing a "gotcha" game on him. Trump crystallizes the warped Evangelical requirement for pathological subjectivity at all costs, with himself as his own final authority. Sadly for those believers who still humble themselves before the example of Christ and the Word, Donald Trump is exactly what millions of shallow self-anointed Evangelicals value. The authentic, disciplined Evangelicals such as "Jim" here see through Trump's sick pose.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/comments/3l4khz/transcript_...
The fundamental liberty for Conservatives, millions of Evangelicals included, is the freedom to indulge in pathological subjectivity and to deny the very idea of fact. The most visible version of this is to escalate the slightest assumption to the status of a religious conviction, a la Kim Davis, and then to demand that their insanity be protected as a Constitutional prerogative.
Donald Trump is his own religious icon. His life story is anything he wants it to be, for any reason, without any explanation, subject to no facts at all, and if he is ever called out on any of this he accuses the questioner of playing a "gotcha" game on him. Trump crystallizes the warped Evangelical requirement for pathological subjectivity at all costs, with himself as his own final authority. Sadly for those believers who still humble themselves before the example of Christ and the Word, Donald Trump is exactly what millions of shallow self-anointed Evangelicals value. The authentic, disciplined Evangelicals such as "Jim" here see through Trump's sick pose.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/comments/3l4khz/transcript_...
7
Good to hear from an Evangelical Christian who apparently knows what it is that Evangelical Christians believe - at least used to believe, before this new age of anything goes - falling in love with a candidate whose major life's work centers around divorce, drinking, gambling, dance, television, and most likely some drugs thrown in and who expresses himself by berating, belittling, and bullying others.
5
Evangelical hypocrisy reached its zenith when so-called Christians voted in droves for Mitt Romney, a Mormon. If that election didn't reveal the vast gulf between professed ideology and personal actions demonstrated by many Christians, admiration of the blowhard that is Trump isn't likely to do so now.
9
BIble itself promotes disdain of 'others'. So why is Trump's (as well as GOP / Evangelical's) xenophobia any surprise? The very fact the missions are created for the very purpose of religious conversion on such a massive scale indicate that Christianity regards all others as vastly inferior needing urgent 'saving'. Is this not xenophobia?
7
In my many decades of observing and living around evangelicals, I have seen two things they have in common. They hate abortion and love other evangelicals. Everything else is up for debate.
6
As to this: "When evangelicals should be leading the way on racial reconciliation, as the Bible tells us to, are we really ready to trade unity with our black and brown brothers and sisters for this angry politician?" ...
I probably missed it, but just where was it that evangelicals were standing in unity with their "black and brown brothers and sisters" who were unhappy about their unarmed citizens getting shot and strangled to death right here in these U.S.? Were evangelicals out marching? Standing with signs in public places? Contacting their politicians?
Just where was this big wave of public demonstration crashing down on the shore of American experience?
I ask because there is, I believe, an incredible divide today in what evangelicals say they stand for and what they actually stand up for in public. Night and day. And as to your specific mention of Planned Parenthood, evangelicals may love fetuses ... but it is abundantly clear they don't have the same love for human beings.
Who can take evangelicals seriously in such matters?
I probably missed it, but just where was it that evangelicals were standing in unity with their "black and brown brothers and sisters" who were unhappy about their unarmed citizens getting shot and strangled to death right here in these U.S.? Were evangelicals out marching? Standing with signs in public places? Contacting their politicians?
Just where was this big wave of public demonstration crashing down on the shore of American experience?
I ask because there is, I believe, an incredible divide today in what evangelicals say they stand for and what they actually stand up for in public. Night and day. And as to your specific mention of Planned Parenthood, evangelicals may love fetuses ... but it is abundantly clear they don't have the same love for human beings.
Who can take evangelicals seriously in such matters?
23
Trump is a bombastic fool, but a bigger danger to this country is the large minority of people who believe that the good things Planned Parenthood has done belong in quotation marks. What part of "health care for poor women" don't you understand? Didn't Jesus say something about caring for the poor? Get this through your head; there are NO FEDERAL FUNDS given to Planned Parenthood for abortion. The vast majority of the care PP provides: cancer screening and women's health for people who would otherwise get nothing. If you want no more abortion, WHY don't you favor providing care (including birth control) that will help reduce abortion?
31
You don't even need to read the Bible past the fable of Genesis to know the truth. All sentience is mortal because death is the high cost of living.
2
I almost thought this column was political satire. Stephen Colbert in his previous incarnation as a conservative blowhard could have given it.
More than any other church in this country the Southern Baptists supported slavery and segregation. So much for that indignation about racism.
And the supposed hypocrisy over Trump isn't anything new. Those pro-family conservatives had no trouble embracing the divorced Ronald Reagan or Sarah Palin who had a grandchild born out of wedlock. It seems that the Southern Baptists are pretty flexible with regard to the morality of the candidates they support. When the candidates they oppose do something of which they disprove they consider it an inherent immoral character flaw; when it's someone they support it's just their being human.
More than any other church in this country the Southern Baptists supported slavery and segregation. So much for that indignation about racism.
And the supposed hypocrisy over Trump isn't anything new. Those pro-family conservatives had no trouble embracing the divorced Ronald Reagan or Sarah Palin who had a grandchild born out of wedlock. It seems that the Southern Baptists are pretty flexible with regard to the morality of the candidates they support. When the candidates they oppose do something of which they disprove they consider it an inherent immoral character flaw; when it's someone they support it's just their being human.
24
they never had any values to begin with, except monetary. onward
christian caesars marching as to war.
christian caesars marching as to war.
10
It should come as no surprise that arch conservative evangelicals and their fellow-travelers in the Republican Party are big supporters of Donald Trump. The reason is simple, clear, obvious: these people are not very good at analyzing how their own best interests are served. They follow the apparently simple, bullying fix, which is what Trump offers in abundance, but which may not be so good for Trump's acolytes.
32
Nobody who claims to follow Mr. Trump has yet stepped into any voting booth. He has simply given voice and entertainment value to the unfocussed rage of those Disaffecteds who seek simpler times and simple answers -- and who fear that the country is leaving them behind.
As we saw last night, the entertainment value has already begun to deteriorate. He will ride his one-trick pony off into oblivion, leaving the remaining candidates to try to explain the ridiculous things they have espoused in trying to keep up and get ink.
As we saw last night, the entertainment value has already begun to deteriorate. He will ride his one-trick pony off into oblivion, leaving the remaining candidates to try to explain the ridiculous things they have espoused in trying to keep up and get ink.
9
Disagreements over petty policies and mere morality are of no importance to Republicans -
- who are do tightly allied by their abiding contempt for women and visceral hatred of all men who not white and Christian.
- who are do tightly allied by their abiding contempt for women and visceral hatred of all men who not white and Christian.
9
Count the cost?> How about counting the cost of republican policies that have helped enrich the wealthy ever more, while wages remain flat for the rest of us? Jesus said, what you have done to the least of these, you have done to me. The republicans have taken a great deal away from the least of these, in order to further enrich their corporate masters, while hoodwinking the more gullible of the least of these into voting for them, based on emotion and exhortation to anger. The right got exactly what it deserves in The Donald, the Great Muckraker.
10
“good things” done by Planned Parenthood.
97% of what Planned Parenthood does is non-abortive reproductive health care, and 100% is legal. So where is your beef specifically? You seem to believe that it is a bad thing that women get health care -- how Christian is that?
97% of what Planned Parenthood does is non-abortive reproductive health care, and 100% is legal. So where is your beef specifically? You seem to believe that it is a bad thing that women get health care -- how Christian is that?
18
Trump is the 100% antithesis of Jesus Christ.
How could anyone who calls himself a “Christian” ever vote for such a man?
How could anyone who calls himself a “Christian” ever vote for such a man?
8
“Lost their values?” LOL
I’d say that “Christian” Evangelicals have FOUND their real core values in Trump.
I’d say that “Christian” Evangelicals have FOUND their real core values in Trump.
16
The fundamental characteristic of many evangelicals is a conservatism that defies the very teachings of Jesus, which is hypocritical given how inerrant they insist the bible is. Their values are intolerance and discrimination, which defies the very definition of what being a christian is supposed to mean. They think they're going to heaven when they die, but they don't qualify. I have more empathy for others than they do, and I'm an atheist-humanist. I disregard narcissists like Trump, they become followers. What a surprise.
Eclectic Pragmatist — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
Eclectic Pragmatist — https://medium.com/eclectic-pragmatism
Eclectic Pragmatist — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
Eclectic Pragmatist — https://medium.com/eclectic-pragmatism
17
The reason that evangelicals can support Trump is not that they are hypocritical but that they, like most of the rest of the GOP, are unmoored from reality. They don't believe the President was born in the United States, that evolution and global warming are real, or that the economy has recovered at all from 2008.
Facts about Trump go into the same circular file as any other fact they don't want to believe.
Facts about Trump go into the same circular file as any other fact they don't want to believe.
14
Trump’s single, overarching value is MONEY.
He’s a serial user and abuser with NO allegiance to anyone or anything but himself.
He’s a malignant narcissist whose default mode is to crush everyone around him into compliance and utter submission.
FACT: He’s the kind of ruthless bully who in 1994 tried - through strong-arming government officials via illegal “eminent domain” - to bulldoze an Atlantic City widow out of her lifelong home to build a parking lot for his casino limos.
He’s the epitome of a modern-day Mammon.
An Evangelical vote for Trump = worship of Mammon.
“For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”
— Matthew 6:19–21,24 (KJV)
He’s a serial user and abuser with NO allegiance to anyone or anything but himself.
He’s a malignant narcissist whose default mode is to crush everyone around him into compliance and utter submission.
FACT: He’s the kind of ruthless bully who in 1994 tried - through strong-arming government officials via illegal “eminent domain” - to bulldoze an Atlantic City widow out of her lifelong home to build a parking lot for his casino limos.
He’s the epitome of a modern-day Mammon.
An Evangelical vote for Trump = worship of Mammon.
“For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”
— Matthew 6:19–21,24 (KJV)
7
Evangelicals have "unity with our black and brown brothers and sisters?" Since when? They don't call it the most segregated hour in America for nothing.
13
How are Trump's personal moral failings (as defined by the author) any worse than those of serial divorcee and adulterer Kim Davis? And, yet, she is an evangelical hero.
10
The range of evangelical/fundamentalist religious people is quite wide. There are the Pentacostals, strict Bibical religious, pick-and-choose Bibical religious, fundamentalists that accept living together without marriage (frowned upon but tolerated) but won't allow women to wear pants in their churches. There are the Jehovah Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists. The range is extremely wide and there are differences in what they allow, believe, accept.
We have a tendency to lump them all together, because of their major religious values of family, anti-abortion, creationism, belief in a deity that interacts with them and others on a personal literal basis.
And as to politics, they generally go for the one that promises that he and he alone will make laws and do things that will draw America into the line of thought and behavior they believe others should adhere to. No sense in asking them how that is working out for them.
We have a tendency to lump them all together, because of their major religious values of family, anti-abortion, creationism, belief in a deity that interacts with them and others on a personal literal basis.
And as to politics, they generally go for the one that promises that he and he alone will make laws and do things that will draw America into the line of thought and behavior they believe others should adhere to. No sense in asking them how that is working out for them.
7
Evangelicals need to ask themselves only two questions:
Would Jesus vote for Trump or Bernie Sanders?
Which candidate displays the highest Christian values - not only in words, but deeds?
Would Jesus vote for Trump or Bernie Sanders?
Which candidate displays the highest Christian values - not only in words, but deeds?
16
Shouldn't we rather be praising the political perspicuity of the 'evangelicals'? Their goal is to exert control over aspects of other people's lives and thoughts that the vast majority regards as private and subject to individual judgment. They've settled on someone who, for whatever reasons, is willing and able to help them do that. Sophisticated in the ways of the world, they're not bound by notions of affinity and identity. We're not in Sunday School anymore --- and neither are they.
6
“Christian, n.: one who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor.”
― Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
Still true nearly 100 years later...
― Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
Still true nearly 100 years later...
17
This goes beyond hypocrisy: it is active bigotry and hate mongering. Evangelical conservatives have tossed any principles they have overboard.
This entire period is going to be gauged poorly in future histories. It is against all American values to scapegoat an entire people, to deny basic rights to subgroups, to slash food stamps and oppose healthcare for the poor, and to constantly favor war and executions. Compared to the Sermon on the Mount, no one would recognize Christians in this crowd.
This entire period is going to be gauged poorly in future histories. It is against all American values to scapegoat an entire people, to deny basic rights to subgroups, to slash food stamps and oppose healthcare for the poor, and to constantly favor war and executions. Compared to the Sermon on the Mount, no one would recognize Christians in this crowd.
14
Yes it's sad.
3
Evangelicals lost their credibility when they supported Paul Ryan, the Ayn Rand lover, in his efforts to "help" the poor by pulling the trampoline out from under them.
20
sorry Gail, there is a big difference between a trampoline and a hammock.
1
If Evangelicals walked their talk of “Christian values” they would be voting for Bernie Sanders, not Trump.
26
I ask myself the same question with each election. How can a Christian support ____?
There were a number of candidates on the platform last night with values which closely align with Evangelicals. To be fair candidates such as Carson do have a lot of support from the Ev community.
I think the Trump phenomenon is fueled largely by frustration. Trump is resonating with many (of us) who feel completely isolated, abandoned, marginalized, and ridiculed by government, media, academia, and even some elements from within the Christian community.
Not only are our values assaulted but we’re being told that we don’t even have the right to voice our dissent.
That, I believe is the tipping point for many to rally around Trump. American’s don’t like being told we don’t have the right to free speech. Like it or not, Trump speaks. And, he does so loudly and defiantly. His populist narrative give’s voice to those who don’t feel they’re being heard.
Trump would not be my first choice, and I don’t even know if he has the staying power to make it to the Convention. However, I have to admit, I kind of enjoy watching how he’s shaken things up.
There were a number of candidates on the platform last night with values which closely align with Evangelicals. To be fair candidates such as Carson do have a lot of support from the Ev community.
I think the Trump phenomenon is fueled largely by frustration. Trump is resonating with many (of us) who feel completely isolated, abandoned, marginalized, and ridiculed by government, media, academia, and even some elements from within the Christian community.
Not only are our values assaulted but we’re being told that we don’t even have the right to voice our dissent.
That, I believe is the tipping point for many to rally around Trump. American’s don’t like being told we don’t have the right to free speech. Like it or not, Trump speaks. And, he does so loudly and defiantly. His populist narrative give’s voice to those who don’t feel they’re being heard.
Trump would not be my first choice, and I don’t even know if he has the staying power to make it to the Convention. However, I have to admit, I kind of enjoy watching how he’s shaken things up.
4
You have voiced your dissent right here, today. There is nothing preventing you from doing so. You may do so as often as you wish, whenever you wish. I defend your right to do so.
If, however, you infer that dissent is, for instance, refusing to provide legally mandated civil services to citizens (such as marriage certificates) because they do not jibe with your religious views, then that is not "free speech" nor "religious liberty", but merely breaking the law. We are all guaranteed equal protection regardless of anyone's religious beliefs.
If, however, you infer that dissent is, for instance, refusing to provide legally mandated civil services to citizens (such as marriage certificates) because they do not jibe with your religious views, then that is not "free speech" nor "religious liberty", but merely breaking the law. We are all guaranteed equal protection regardless of anyone's religious beliefs.
4
You speak of the families whose lives were destroyed by Trumps gambling businesses but doubt it was as many as the number of working professional's lives that were destroyed by the brilliant Ms. Fiorina's massive layoffs. 20,000 at a clip--that's like laying off a small town. As a taxpayer, I paid for the unemployment benefits while Carly, who was paid $21,000,000 to go away, wrote a book and donated the proceeds to herself.
27
"Benjamin, I have 2 words for you: prosperity gospel"
(paraphrasing a famous quote from "The Graduate" movie: "1 word for you: plastics")
(paraphrasing a famous quote from "The Graduate" movie: "1 word for you: plastics")
7
Evangelicals are so excited to have one of the "cool" kids sitting at their lunch table they are willing to abandon their usual moral conservative purity test. Trump's pretense of being a Christian conservative is good enough for many of them, it appears.
10
When Evangelicas and others who who support Trump because they love that he "tells it like it is", they are clearly saying that they approve of his outspoken, cruel and callous denigration of women, belittlnent of the least fortunate, spewing bigoted attacks on Latinos, and attacking anyone who would dare challenge him.
The more he brags about himself and how rich he is, the more they like it.
i would love to hear them explain how they reconcile their adoration of Trump with their supposedly adherence to the teachings of Christ. Hypocrites!
The more he brags about himself and how rich he is, the more they like it.
i would love to hear them explain how they reconcile their adoration of Trump with their supposedly adherence to the teachings of Christ. Hypocrites!
17
Well, as you suggest in your last sentence, their "adherence to the teachings of Christ" is merely supposed. Most people's "beliefs" are not much more than an emblem, a badge of belonging to a particular group. Jesus had something to say about this phenomenon in his Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7).
6
I'm trying, but can't remember seeing this type of vitriol directed towards people of other religions here in The Times comments section.
I guess it's easier to attack those from whom you know you'll receive no retaliation.
I guess it's easier to attack those from whom you know you'll receive no retaliation.
3
Hilarious! No retaliation? It's time we stopped thinking about our fellow citizens the Christian right as mere uneducated, deluded sheep who have lost their way and are innocently following modern day demons. They are an organized political army mob beating to bloody bits all ideals of brotherly love, wisdom, moderation, support for the poor and lowly in society. Instead they support modern day Caesars who pledge to make war other countries after they are finished assaulting the poor, disabled, veterans, women, and dissenters to their rabid racism. Let's sit up and take this seriously, the red tides of hate and inhumanity are rising and we are knee-deep.
4
Everybody has different abilities and inclinations, so it is is unreasonable to expect any favor to returned in identical kind. It is more rational not to do to others what one doesn't want done to oneself, because that favor is universally returnable.
3
Obviously, Donald Trump knows nothing about religion. But sometimes evangelicals don't either. Like when it comes to judging others.
Who is anyone to judge if someone else has lost their values? Evangelicals are the very first to say they'll "pray for you" if they don't like something about what they think are your values. Really? Ah, let's not judge, let's just mind our own business.
Who is anyone to judge if someone else has lost their values? Evangelicals are the very first to say they'll "pray for you" if they don't like something about what they think are your values. Really? Ah, let's not judge, let's just mind our own business.
8
We could ask the same question about the evangelicals who supported Reagan, given the fact that he was on his second marriage. Or those who supported Newt Gingrich, who had an affair during his second marriage and then married the affair. Or the evangelicals who supported Bush, given his policy of torturing prisoners.
What we have to conclude is that it makes sense to many evangelicals to support politicians who clearly do NOT believe in what Christ preached, so long as those politicians claim they favor certain public policies that evangelicals like. Does that make them hypocrites? Yes, it does.
What we have to conclude is that it makes sense to many evangelicals to support politicians who clearly do NOT believe in what Christ preached, so long as those politicians claim they favor certain public policies that evangelicals like. Does that make them hypocrites? Yes, it does.
23
The favor Donald Trump currently enjoys among some conservative evangelicals is evidence for a truth that goes back at least to the founding of the contemporary fundamentalist movement in the 1970's. For some on the religious right, Christianity is a serious matter, with a genuine spiritual and moral content. For others, it is just a form of white identity politics, lightly dusted with the sparkling pixie dust of traditional religious belief.
17
Of course they haven't lost their values- they had none to begin with. They're all about the prosperity doctrine and getting rich. They pay no attention to the verses in the bible that do not endorse their greed and the greed of candidates and their billionaire underwriters that they support. They care zip about the poor.
19
Finally, a conservative theologian with the guts to tell it like it is with regard to Mr. Trump.
As a Presbyterian, I would prefer Mr. Trump take his "little cracker and sip of wine" in a casino, where I'm sure he feels more at home.
As a Presbyterian, I would prefer Mr. Trump take his "little cracker and sip of wine" in a casino, where I'm sure he feels more at home.
11
It seems to me that what is called social conservatism is mostly economic elitism with a strong whiff of racism.
25
Perhaps evangelicals have tired of the hate and bigotry Huckabee espouses?
5
Do the Southern Baptists even bother to support the 10 Commandments? The prohibition against killing (#6) stops at birth. Why isn't Jeb criticized for supporting the death penalty?
I haven't heard a moral outcry against Ferguson, MO Police Department, etc. about "bearing false witness".(#9)
The concept of "stealing" (#8) obviously does not apply to banks and "too big to fail" Wall Street.
And as for "coveting" (#10), don't you think wanting "power" over the beliefs of others is the most dangerous sin of all, since it leads to the justification of all the others?
I haven't heard a moral outcry against Ferguson, MO Police Department, etc. about "bearing false witness".(#9)
The concept of "stealing" (#8) obviously does not apply to banks and "too big to fail" Wall Street.
And as for "coveting" (#10), don't you think wanting "power" over the beliefs of others is the most dangerous sin of all, since it leads to the justification of all the others?
21
There are at least 10 NYT articles today about either Trump or the debate (which of course focus on Trump). His clown act is propelled by this incessant publicity.
10
Evangelicals depart from their faith the moment they start seeking power though politics. Did Jesus advocate using money and influence to manipulate corrupt politicians? I think not.
12
Evangelicals I've encountered have a very narrow black and white view of the world - naive and ignorant and fearful, which makes it easy to see themselves as victims. The victimization, then, makes them an easy target for Trump - after all, they like certainty and fervor, something the non-evangelicals are more likely to be suspect of (think Elmer Gantry, revivals etc.), and Trump gives it to them, gives them the good and the bad in black and white.
Example of narrowness and ignorance:
1) B. O'Reilly (of whom I am no fan) confronted Pat Robertson with the evangelical assertion that one has to be born again to attain heaven, rather than focusing on one's actions; when presented with mother Theresa as an example of a non-evangelical who walked the walk, Robertson responded "well, if she accepts Jesus as her savior" - this from a world evangelical figure.
2) Jimmy Swaggart's fall from grace was followed by a teary eyed blubbering confession to a packed stadium who loved it, the rest of us rolling our eyes.
3) My mother, a devout Catholic, when asked by an evangelical several decades ago about her religion, was told "Oh, Catholics are not Christians".
Evangelicals talk about values, the rest of us roll our eyes, clutch our wallets/purses, and let our actions speak for us to God.
Example of narrowness and ignorance:
1) B. O'Reilly (of whom I am no fan) confronted Pat Robertson with the evangelical assertion that one has to be born again to attain heaven, rather than focusing on one's actions; when presented with mother Theresa as an example of a non-evangelical who walked the walk, Robertson responded "well, if she accepts Jesus as her savior" - this from a world evangelical figure.
2) Jimmy Swaggart's fall from grace was followed by a teary eyed blubbering confession to a packed stadium who loved it, the rest of us rolling our eyes.
3) My mother, a devout Catholic, when asked by an evangelical several decades ago about her religion, was told "Oh, Catholics are not Christians".
Evangelicals talk about values, the rest of us roll our eyes, clutch our wallets/purses, and let our actions speak for us to God.
22
It makes perfect sense to me that evangelical voters are in bed with 'The Donald' because each prefers the politics of hate and fear mongering to genuine dialogue.
26
Apparently values are not the point. Fear and resentment are the point.
22
My theory of Donald Trump's popularity is the same as my theory of why small children like dinosaurs. Living in a world where they have no power children love dinosaurs because they can stomp around and do whatever they want. So can Trump and I think his fans greatly envy him for that. I'm not sure there's anything more to it.
11
The common ground is that both evangelicals and Mr. Trump are bullies, and get excited by bully figures.
It really is that simple.
It really is that simple.
16
Have Evangelicals who support Trump abandoned their values?
You need to ask?
There's no evidence in Mr. Trump'swell documented biography of particular commitment to anything but the cult of his own personality and success.
He's dedicated himself to the classical deadly sins with almost demonic (to use his word) "energy" and great public fanfare-
Lust, Adultery: He's had three wives: one of them was first his very public mistress, Marla Maples. He voices an unashamed and unrepentant objectification of women. Of his own daughter, 7 days ago, he said: “You know who’s one of the great beauties of the world, according to everybody? And I helped create her. Ivanka. My daughter, Ivanka. She’s 6 feet tall, she’s got the best body. She made a lot money as a model—a tremendous amount.”
Greed, Sloth: His fortune was made promoting over-the-top "luxury," gambling, leisure and self indulgence. He's crowed about stiffing business associates using the bankruptcy laws. He never misses a chance to boast of his wealth.
Wrath, Pride: These two utterly define him as a person and are the brazen essence of his political style.
And the man's comically unrepentant. Frank Lutz asked if he's sought God's forgiveness and got this: "I am not sure I have. I just go on and try to do a better job from there. I don't think so," he said. "I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right. I don't bring God into that picture. I don't."
You need to ask?
There's no evidence in Mr. Trump'swell documented biography of particular commitment to anything but the cult of his own personality and success.
He's dedicated himself to the classical deadly sins with almost demonic (to use his word) "energy" and great public fanfare-
Lust, Adultery: He's had three wives: one of them was first his very public mistress, Marla Maples. He voices an unashamed and unrepentant objectification of women. Of his own daughter, 7 days ago, he said: “You know who’s one of the great beauties of the world, according to everybody? And I helped create her. Ivanka. My daughter, Ivanka. She’s 6 feet tall, she’s got the best body. She made a lot money as a model—a tremendous amount.”
Greed, Sloth: His fortune was made promoting over-the-top "luxury," gambling, leisure and self indulgence. He's crowed about stiffing business associates using the bankruptcy laws. He never misses a chance to boast of his wealth.
Wrath, Pride: These two utterly define him as a person and are the brazen essence of his political style.
And the man's comically unrepentant. Frank Lutz asked if he's sought God's forgiveness and got this: "I am not sure I have. I just go on and try to do a better job from there. I don't think so," he said. "I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right. I don't bring God into that picture. I don't."
12
Blasting Trump is easy. Wake me up when the Southern Baptist Convention criticizes Huckabee or any other mainstream Republican for spreading their hateful messages, supporting unfettered capitalism, and just generally not following Jesus.
24
So many evangelicals easily resonate with Trump. They are full of anger and not about to turn the other cheek or love their enemies. They will witness aggressively and pridefully for their beliefs, and love to profess that they are firm in them. They are self-righteous and not at all shy about trying to force their personal beliefs on other people. In fact they see this as a good. This is core and heartfelt. Trump is in fact a sort of evangelical.
9
True...I attended an evangelical church for a short time recently. All of the hate- mongering, demagoguery, sneering, war on the poor and racism was undisguised and fierce, along with political right-wung boosterism and assurances that their faith was under assault by demons who wanted to make it illegal to be Christian! Looking about the congregation who were predominantly poor to middle class, with many Hispanics, I saw that those applauding wildly didn't comprehend they were they intended victims of their own church! None of them had the sophistication to resent the manipulation of their faith and beliefs. However, they were more than willing to beat the spirit of love Christ calls for and which they do have the text and understanding, to a bloody pulp. J'accuse!
2
Trump's response should be easy: "Like King David, my past sins would prevent me from building the Temple. But also like KIng David, I am the strong leader America needs now."
Perhaps he will hire me as a PR consultant (ha ha)
Perhaps he will hire me as a PR consultant (ha ha)
1
Case in point, compare editorial comments from Geoffrey Grider, Founder and Editor-in-chief of conservative online magazine "Now the End Begins". To me, this perfectly illustrates their ridiculous logic:
On Donald Trump:
"Make no mistake about it, Donald Trump is an imperfect candidate to say the least. Though he has said that the “Bible is his favorite book“, he was unable to quote a single verse, not even John 3:16. He was for abortion before he was against it, and the list goes on and on. So why is The Donald so amazingly popular? Because in spite of any of his other myriad flaws, when he opens his mouth he is connecting with an American public that has been lied to and betrayed by it’s leaders nearly every day for the past 7 years. He is connecting with a Conservative base that is seethingly angry."
On Bernie Sanders recent speech to Liberty University:
"Bernie Sanders wants to find the “common ground” between him and you. But unless you are a pro-gay, pro-abortion, pro-Socialist, what type of common ground are you ever going to find? A post-Christian America is a scary, scary place to be, but so it is after 7 years of the reign Muslim-raised King Barack Hussein Obama...Sanders constantly hammered home his Socialist mantra of wealth redistribution, and his supposedly Christian audience cheered wildly every time. This was not a speech, this was indoctrination of the highest order."
On Donald Trump:
"Make no mistake about it, Donald Trump is an imperfect candidate to say the least. Though he has said that the “Bible is his favorite book“, he was unable to quote a single verse, not even John 3:16. He was for abortion before he was against it, and the list goes on and on. So why is The Donald so amazingly popular? Because in spite of any of his other myriad flaws, when he opens his mouth he is connecting with an American public that has been lied to and betrayed by it’s leaders nearly every day for the past 7 years. He is connecting with a Conservative base that is seethingly angry."
On Bernie Sanders recent speech to Liberty University:
"Bernie Sanders wants to find the “common ground” between him and you. But unless you are a pro-gay, pro-abortion, pro-Socialist, what type of common ground are you ever going to find? A post-Christian America is a scary, scary place to be, but so it is after 7 years of the reign Muslim-raised King Barack Hussein Obama...Sanders constantly hammered home his Socialist mantra of wealth redistribution, and his supposedly Christian audience cheered wildly every time. This was not a speech, this was indoctrination of the highest order."
10
The more crowded the world gets, the more urgent the need for respect of other people's rights to privacy.
2
Thank you for making public these disgusting diatribes. They so vividly illustrate the kind of moral black hole which exists in the heart of ultra-"conservatism." I will trot out the old saw: "I have a lot of conservative friends ...." and quite honestly, the majority do not ascribe to these attitudes.
2
Not really lost...it's just that with a perceived reality cast by myths, fables and superstition, any good salesman talking a good talk develops a loyal following...
What did get lost was two medical doctors losing ethics to the politics of the moment and equivocating over vaccines and autism...
What did get lost was two medical doctors losing ethics to the politics of the moment and equivocating over vaccines and autism...
8
From the New York Times: Verbatim: Bobby Jindal Questions Donald Trump’s Christianity
Jindal: "You may have recently seen that after Trump said the Bible is his favorite book, he couldn’t name a single Bible verse or passage that meant something to him. And we all know why, because it’s all just a show, and he hasn’t ever read the Bible. But you know why he hasn’t read the Bible? Because he’s not in it."
Jindal: "You may have recently seen that after Trump said the Bible is his favorite book, he couldn’t name a single Bible verse or passage that meant something to him. And we all know why, because it’s all just a show, and he hasn’t ever read the Bible. But you know why he hasn’t read the Bible? Because he’s not in it."
11
I still call myself an evangelical despite the fact that the way the word is now used in our culture has very little to do with its defined meaning. I don't know a single individual in my circle of friends with a similar faith walk that have any respect for Donald Trump, and we would never vote for him. There is nothing in what he says or does that reflects the teachings of Jesus, let alone good thinking or responsible government.
11
"Have Evangelicals Who Support Trump Lost Their Values?"
Evangelicals would play a better hand if they would concentrate on the King and leave the joker alone.
Evangelicals would play a better hand if they would concentrate on the King and leave the joker alone.
8
What valuers?
Evangelicals thump the Bible for any verse that can be used against OTHER people while ignoring any passage that would condemn their own behavior.s
And when you listen to them slandering scientists and lying about history, it's clear they never heard of "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."
Evangelicals thump the Bible for any verse that can be used against OTHER people while ignoring any passage that would condemn their own behavior.s
And when you listen to them slandering scientists and lying about history, it's clear they never heard of "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."
21
Scientists generally take great care that their witness can be replicated by others. Without that, it doesn't qualify as science.
1
This brings up the question on why evangelicals would ever vote republican. The GOP believes in helping the rich, eliminating social security, eliminating medicare and medicaid, defunding public education, ignoring the plight of the poor, going to war with little reason, in essence the exact opposite of the teachings of Jesus. My oh my.
24
Evangelicals who support the GOP in general have already lost their values; what does choosing a specific candidate change?
16
I am sorry, but the notion that evangelicals have any thing such as "values" to lose is applesauce. The very idea that there is some rational thought process going in their brains is untenable. They are nothing but eating, drinking, and defecating biological entities.
Why do I say these "politically incorrect" things? (You see, when talking about fundamentalists and extremists I too can abuse this term in the same way that the far righters do.) Evangelicals believe that the theory of evolution is false, that the biblical account of creation is literally true, that dinosaurs coexisted with modern man, and that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. In the year 2015, in a country with first rate knowledge and educational resources, this set of beliefs is indisputable prima facie evidence of a defective brain, however that defect was caused -- through indoctrination as a child, through an inability to overcome such indoctrination, or through an inability to understand basic statistics, math, biology, and physics. Once you have that level of brain damage, nothing else matters. I refuse to concede that you have the ability to think.
There you have it. Evangelicals love Trump because he amuses them as one would an imbecile -- by braying, farting, and belching total drivel louder than anyone else. He has gauged the intelligence level of his target audience perfectly.
Why do I say these "politically incorrect" things? (You see, when talking about fundamentalists and extremists I too can abuse this term in the same way that the far righters do.) Evangelicals believe that the theory of evolution is false, that the biblical account of creation is literally true, that dinosaurs coexisted with modern man, and that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. In the year 2015, in a country with first rate knowledge and educational resources, this set of beliefs is indisputable prima facie evidence of a defective brain, however that defect was caused -- through indoctrination as a child, through an inability to overcome such indoctrination, or through an inability to understand basic statistics, math, biology, and physics. Once you have that level of brain damage, nothing else matters. I refuse to concede that you have the ability to think.
There you have it. Evangelicals love Trump because he amuses them as one would an imbecile -- by braying, farting, and belching total drivel louder than anyone else. He has gauged the intelligence level of his target audience perfectly.
14
Dear Mr. Moore:
I read your column in the Times today. I don't disagree with your observations about the apparently inconsistent nature of evangelical support for Mr. Trump. Unfortunately, I don't see the substantial inconsistency you allege.
For decades, the conservative evangelical movement has allied itself politically with Wall Street and elements of the Republican Party who, starting with the 1968 election of Richard Nixon, developed and relied on the "Southern Strategy" - the divisive mix of resentment and racism that successfully moved blue-collar voters from the (D) to the (R) column. Your column notably omits any reference to that marriage of political convenience.
To me, therefore, it appears that evangelicals, In Mr. Trump, are reaping what they have sown. And, not surprisingly, these evangelicals are happy with the result, because it reflects their values and tactics.
I read your column in the Times today. I don't disagree with your observations about the apparently inconsistent nature of evangelical support for Mr. Trump. Unfortunately, I don't see the substantial inconsistency you allege.
For decades, the conservative evangelical movement has allied itself politically with Wall Street and elements of the Republican Party who, starting with the 1968 election of Richard Nixon, developed and relied on the "Southern Strategy" - the divisive mix of resentment and racism that successfully moved blue-collar voters from the (D) to the (R) column. Your column notably omits any reference to that marriage of political convenience.
To me, therefore, it appears that evangelicals, In Mr. Trump, are reaping what they have sown. And, not surprisingly, these evangelicals are happy with the result, because it reflects their values and tactics.
12
Evangelicals have no values. They only pretend to.
They claim they're pro-life, yet statistics show they support the death penalty, war, torture, and unmitigated gun use more than any other demographic. Two GOP presidential candidates have gone on the record saying they're against a woman having an abortion, even if the baby kills her.
Evangelicals love to tote their family values, despite having more affairs, divorces and births out of wedlock than any other demographic.
Red States also lead the nation in teen pregnancy, obesity and porn consumption.
And of course let's not forget the best for last: Evangelicals' thundering condemnation of the LGBT community, despite countless numbers of their leaders being outed as gay themselves. Many times while married to women.
They claim they're pro-life, yet statistics show they support the death penalty, war, torture, and unmitigated gun use more than any other demographic. Two GOP presidential candidates have gone on the record saying they're against a woman having an abortion, even if the baby kills her.
Evangelicals love to tote their family values, despite having more affairs, divorces and births out of wedlock than any other demographic.
Red States also lead the nation in teen pregnancy, obesity and porn consumption.
And of course let's not forget the best for last: Evangelicals' thundering condemnation of the LGBT community, despite countless numbers of their leaders being outed as gay themselves. Many times while married to women.
24
No, the Evangelicals aren't hypocrites. Their values are to acquire power and wield it with ruthless abandon. Anything that gets in the way with that goal, such a religious conviction or beliefs, is thrown by the wayside. Preferably in front of a speeding bus.
6
"If you don't knock this chip off my shoulders, you are a COWARD."
"If you don't jump for joy and shout 'Hosanna' at my gay wedding you are a hate filled homophobic bigot."
"If you oppose abortion up to the first birthday you're a fascist pig."
"If you claim to be a Christian and don't apply the words of Jesus to your life in EXACTLY the same way I do, you are a HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE
"If you don't jump for joy and shout 'Hosanna' at my gay wedding you are a hate filled homophobic bigot."
"If you oppose abortion up to the first birthday you're a fascist pig."
"If you claim to be a Christian and don't apply the words of Jesus to your life in EXACTLY the same way I do, you are a HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE
1
If you reject my intolerant, racist, homophobic bigotry, that makes YOU the intolerant bigot, not me?
No, it doesn't work that way.
No, it doesn't work that way.
2
"He’s defended, up until very recent years, abortion, and speaks even now of the “good things” done by Planned Parenthood." - sounds like the only reasonable, knowledgable guy, among all the hypocritical republicans.
1
"He has divorced two wives (so far) for other women.
This should not be surprising to social conservatives in a culture shaped by pornographic understandings of the meaning of love and sex... In the 1990s, some of these social conservatives argued that “If Bill Clinton’s wife can’t trust him, neither can we.”
Huh, that's funny considering the long list of conservative Republican presidential aspirants, candidates and actual presidents who have had divorces. Bob Dole, John McCain, John Kasich and Newt Gingrich have all been divorced - Gingrich is twice divorced. And, of course, the conservative hero Ronald Reagan was also divorced.
This should not be surprising to social conservatives in a culture shaped by pornographic understandings of the meaning of love and sex... In the 1990s, some of these social conservatives argued that “If Bill Clinton’s wife can’t trust him, neither can we.”
Huh, that's funny considering the long list of conservative Republican presidential aspirants, candidates and actual presidents who have had divorces. Bob Dole, John McCain, John Kasich and Newt Gingrich have all been divorced - Gingrich is twice divorced. And, of course, the conservative hero Ronald Reagan was also divorced.
4
You know, I am so tired of having Christians (of any persuasion) typecast as unthinking, uncritcal, narrow-minded bigots, that I could almost take it personally! Given the kind critical thinking expressed by Mr. Moore, or the love, humility, morality and open-mindedness represented by Christian leaders like Pope Francis, why paint all Christians as mean-spirited hypocrites? We're not perfect--by a long shot. But give us a break!
3
If more loving, humble, moral, open-minded Christians would band together to forcefully and consistently repudiate the unthinking, uncritical, narrow-minded, bigoted Christians in national forums that matter such as Fox News and elsewhere, then maybe you would be given a break. All Christians have been happy enough to remain silent and let the mean-spirited bigots drive the conversation for a long long time (in fact, decades since that immoral "Moral Majority" jumped in bed with the GOP) while it benefitted them and gave their religion special status it does not deserve. Now the fallout comes and frankly, it's richly deserved. Organize! Speak up in places that matter, walk your talk, vote them out, and work to return this nation to its secular roots. Then maybe the rest of us would believe you and consider your plea.
"By their works ye shall know them." I'm sorry but a frustrated comment in the New York Times, of all places, isn't going to cut it.
"By their works ye shall know them." I'm sorry but a frustrated comment in the New York Times, of all places, isn't going to cut it.
6
Resort to claims to know than an abiding personality of the whole universe supports one's own views on topical issues is not persuasive to people who disbelieve that nature has any personality or interest in human affairs.
I grew up an evangelical Baptist. Your assumption is that they believe what you think they believe. They don't. Mostly what I saw was a bunch of uneducated, not-too-bright adults trying to brainwash me into hating various groups of people. Catholics at the top, then on down to gays, liberals, you name it. It wasn't about being a good Christian. It was about making oneself feel better by blaming all of your problems on somebody else because they were different. Beliefs? I didn't see Christian beliefs. I saw closed minded/small minded hatred based on no logic or critical thinking. Just ignorance and hatred. It makes sense that they love trump.
23
They believe that wealth means you are a good person and that poverty means you are a bad person. Their pastors having mega churches and private jets reinforce the idea of Good Person = wealth. The things associated with poverty such as immigration, racial politics and even abortion are all considered wrong and evidence of being a bad person. They follow a cult of wealth as does Donald Trump so it is a perfect fit. Where true Christian ideas get in the way of adoration of money as with Pope Francis's words, they will prefer to reject the Christian ideas rather than their attachment to money.
10
The answer to the question Mr. Moore poses in his piece is "No, they have not." I know there are some evangelicals who will not support Mr. Trump. However, many of us are weary of the continual barrage of political correctness, the downward spiral of traditional values and the subtle and not-so-subtle attacks on our Christian faith. I, for one, and many others are drawn to someone who has the guts to say what he thinks without regard for "kissing up" to the establishment and seems to be willing to shake things up. He doesn't seem to be an evangelical (I don't know his heart), but I'm not voting for preacher. I'm voting for a leader. Mr. Trump is that. i think that's why many evangelicals and conservatives are on his bandwagon.
1
Hilarious! Very, very sad. This ridiculous pusillanimous allegiance to wealth, anti-vaccine, etc is what relieves you? You need therapy, not a political party.
1
Thank you, Russell Moore,
I started reading about Billy Graham and his Crusade for money and influence more than 50 years ago. I wondered then about the disconnect between the Biblical Jesus and the $2000 suits.
Being Jewish I wondered about the chasm between the words and deeds of my brother Jesus and the Greco-Roman demi-God of the Reverend Graham. I am particularly welcoming that the head of a church I have long railed against shares my concerns. I am particularly pleased that the head of the Southern Baptist Convention is aware of the Christianity of Thomas Jefferson whose Messiah was 100% human. I was brought up to not only to entertain doubt but to relish it. My friends from the most faith imbued Christians and Jews to the most rabid atheists and agnostics cannot understand my comfort with being an Atheist at 9AM and a Gnostic at 10PM and being somewhere in the middle betwixt and between. I try to explain that being true to ones moral code transcends both doubt and faith. I am glad you are at least confronting the issue.
I started reading about Billy Graham and his Crusade for money and influence more than 50 years ago. I wondered then about the disconnect between the Biblical Jesus and the $2000 suits.
Being Jewish I wondered about the chasm between the words and deeds of my brother Jesus and the Greco-Roman demi-God of the Reverend Graham. I am particularly welcoming that the head of a church I have long railed against shares my concerns. I am particularly pleased that the head of the Southern Baptist Convention is aware of the Christianity of Thomas Jefferson whose Messiah was 100% human. I was brought up to not only to entertain doubt but to relish it. My friends from the most faith imbued Christians and Jews to the most rabid atheists and agnostics cannot understand my comfort with being an Atheist at 9AM and a Gnostic at 10PM and being somewhere in the middle betwixt and between. I try to explain that being true to ones moral code transcends both doubt and faith. I am glad you are at least confronting the issue.
8
My guess is they like his honesty. He's not attempting to woo them with a bunch of 'churchy' talk & attending church on Sunday's merely for photo ops.
I'd think The Times would be 'singing their praises' for showing signs they're not the single-issue voters they've historically been labeled as.
I'd think The Times would be 'singing their praises' for showing signs they're not the single-issue voters they've historically been labeled as.
It is obvious that many evangelicals support Trump's positions, regardless of the criticisms of his morality. "To back Mr. Trump, these voters must repudiate everything they believe" says this author. How can this be? Very puzzling, indeed. Maybe, just maybe, evangelical Trump supporters do not believe what this guy thinks they do. Maybe they are actually amoral people hiding their true nature under a cloak of evangelicalism. Could this be the explanation?
6
Like most Evangelicals I enjoy seeing him kick the Washington and Media elites in the shins. Like most, I will not end up voting for him.
Small comfort when the "most" of you Hve voted into power senators and congressmen who are behaving this hour as les enfants terribles and shredding responsible governance gleefully.
1
Small comfort when the "most" of you have voted into power senators and congressmen who are still delighting the others by threats of shutting down the government and other destryctions and obstructions. Evidently the others didn't get the memo that les enfants terribles were only for preview, not prime-time?
1
I appreciate the willingness to make common cause with those of us who believe in religious liberty, and even more the recognition that Christ demands a little something called aiding the poor, and I realize that what I'd like to see won't happen.
But could we stop calling right-wingers conservatives, and stop overlooking the attempts to impose something very like a theocracy on this country?
Oh, and by the way--the list of hypocritical, greedy preachers goes on pretty much forever.
But could we stop calling right-wingers conservatives, and stop overlooking the attempts to impose something very like a theocracy on this country?
Oh, and by the way--the list of hypocritical, greedy preachers goes on pretty much forever.
9
"There's no religious test for office, and there shouldn't be" you write. In fact, a religious test for office is specifically addressed in the U.S. Constitution: It's prohibited. Article VI, (3) reads: ". . . but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." It would be nice if reporters not only knew this, but mentioned it every time a politician expresses his or her Christian (it's always Christian) bona fides.
5
Religion is used by the GOP as a branding facade to unite believers behind bad policy and an unwillingness to compromise. The strategic marketing of religiosity has benefited Republican candidates among primarily white evangelicals. But it has also been a regressive and divisive force. It has poisoned discourse by branding complex issues in simplistic terms of black or white, bad or good, or evil or holy. But we don't live in a binary universe; and our constitutional system only works when divided minds bend enough to work together to solve common problems.
10
Don't forget they are organized in their churches as a political force. They preach right-wing politica and allegiance directly from they pulpit!
2
In the words of the great Malcolm X, the chickens (e.g., Donald Trump) have come home to roost for White Americans, evangelicals and Republicans.
6
All this nonsense would be dead already if it didn't such life support, eh, censors?
Mr. Moore "To back Mr. Trump, these voters (evangelicals) must repudiate everything they believe." No they don't and no they haven't. You are frauds, Trump just has the audacity to voice your true agenda.
6
You mean the same evangelical values that caused them to vote for a man who believed he was going to be a god someday?
2
"money and power and social Darwinist “winning” trump the conservation of moral principles and a just society."
Evangelicals have been the bedrock for every advance of Social Darwinism in America since they embraced Ronald Reagan.
The "other side of the culture war" wouldn't touch Donald Trump with a ten foot pole.
Evangelicals and their LORD Jesus have little to nothing to do with Christianity and nearly everything to do with White Tribal politics.
That has been quite evident for quite some time now.
Evangelicals have been the bedrock for every advance of Social Darwinism in America since they embraced Ronald Reagan.
The "other side of the culture war" wouldn't touch Donald Trump with a ten foot pole.
Evangelicals and their LORD Jesus have little to nothing to do with Christianity and nearly everything to do with White Tribal politics.
That has been quite evident for quite some time now.
17
When voters embrace religious beliefs and practices as the truth they live by it is understandable to me that they would want their political leaders to share those religious beliefs and practices. But this is not the country we have created. In this country we do not require our political leaders to have membership in any particular church, or even that they profess to be Christian is some way. We are a nation of many faiths and many of our citizens do not adhere to any belief in God; we are, however, a nation of values. Even atheists and agnostics embrace values that govern their lives. We all should vote for political candidates that share our values. I won't be voting for Mr. Trump, not because he has had sex with a lot of beautiful women, but because he has had absolutely no political experience. I doubt he even knows how a bill becomes law. And he is also mean-spirited, as demonstrated in the insults he freely throws around. He seems not to care for the feelings of others, which shows a lack of empathy and compassion, two values that are important to me.
BTW - I love the line about demanding Mr. Trump show religious conservatives his second birth certificate, even though it would be an unconstitutional demand.
BTW - I love the line about demanding Mr. Trump show religious conservatives his second birth certificate, even though it would be an unconstitutional demand.
5
People who follow evangelicals want someone else to think for them and tell them how to behave. That is why they are called a "flock". Of course they think DT is great because he stands up and shouts out - and they don't care what he says. It's mind-boggling. Keep religion OUT of politics.
8
Only if Donald Trump were gay, or had had an abortion, would fundamentalist evangelical support of him would be inconsistent with their beliefs and principles.
5
If Evangelicals in particular, and christians in general, truly followed the teachings of christ, the only poor in this country would be the Churches. Instead of poor churches spending their tax free donations on the poor, the needy and the sick, we have super rich mega churches, whose leaders fly in private jets, live in lavish mansions and preach to thousands at a time rather than individuals. Does this not sound like Donald Trump? if Evangelicals have lost their values, you have only the Evangelical church to blame.
15
Adam,
I do not see the bible as history but the allegorical truth as to who and what we are is incontestable. Jesus had a message the message was true then and it is true now.
Only Bernie Sanders is giving us the message Jesus delivered 2000 years ago. Only love and understanding can defeat ISIS, the Ayatollahs and Ted Cruz. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Wednesday Jews around the world will again read the story of Jonah and will again not understand its message that we are in charge of our own fate.
I do not see the bible as history but the allegorical truth as to who and what we are is incontestable. Jesus had a message the message was true then and it is true now.
Only Bernie Sanders is giving us the message Jesus delivered 2000 years ago. Only love and understanding can defeat ISIS, the Ayatollahs and Ted Cruz. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Wednesday Jews around the world will again read the story of Jonah and will again not understand its message that we are in charge of our own fate.
1
I know of what Russell Moore speaks and being the head of America's largest "Protestant" denomination his problems really do touch my heart. Thomas Jefferson called himself a Christian but his beliefs run contrary to the very first principle Christian Evangelism of inviolate faith in the presence of God on our planet. The United Church of Canada abandoned the principle of faith in the eternal presence of God on this planet last century, Christianity is how you live not your strength of belief.
Russell Moore knows above most others what my forefathers understood for my people. America makes it almost impossible to be a Jew or be a Christian.
When Bernie Sanders goes to Liberty University he makes it plain and simple that being a person of moral courage puts one completely outside the mainstream of American politics and culture. Sanders looks, acts and talks like a disciple of Moore's Jesus of Nazareth. Doubts must arise in Russell Moore's mind and conscience when so many of his flock ooze the vanity,intolerance, anger and self righteousness which was the core of what Jesus railed against.
America does not look like an American Evangelical, he does not talk like an American Evangelical, he does not even look like a successful American Jew of the 21st century.
Bernie looks and sounds like those Jewish prophets of 2000 years ago looking to change and save the world.
Maybe Russell Moore will choose to serve his Messiah and support Sanders.
Russell Moore knows above most others what my forefathers understood for my people. America makes it almost impossible to be a Jew or be a Christian.
When Bernie Sanders goes to Liberty University he makes it plain and simple that being a person of moral courage puts one completely outside the mainstream of American politics and culture. Sanders looks, acts and talks like a disciple of Moore's Jesus of Nazareth. Doubts must arise in Russell Moore's mind and conscience when so many of his flock ooze the vanity,intolerance, anger and self righteousness which was the core of what Jesus railed against.
America does not look like an American Evangelical, he does not talk like an American Evangelical, he does not even look like a successful American Jew of the 21st century.
Bernie looks and sounds like those Jewish prophets of 2000 years ago looking to change and save the world.
Maybe Russell Moore will choose to serve his Messiah and support Sanders.
5
1. How can Evangelicals lose their values when they are already the biggest group of hypocrites in the USA? They say they are pro-life, yet the Evangelicals are pro death penalty and anti medicaid/medicare/etc.
2. How could they lose their values by supporting DT when DT represents their values surprisingly well? Kim Davis, the latest Evangelical darling, has been divorced three times, and married four, how do they justify that?
3. Evangelicals are already pretty far down the road to obsolescence, with the people not going to church, and generally detaching from the hypocrisy machine. The Evangelicals are going the way of the white supremacists in the south, underground, smaller, and becoming generally less important.
2. How could they lose their values by supporting DT when DT represents their values surprisingly well? Kim Davis, the latest Evangelical darling, has been divorced three times, and married four, how do they justify that?
3. Evangelicals are already pretty far down the road to obsolescence, with the people not going to church, and generally detaching from the hypocrisy machine. The Evangelicals are going the way of the white supremacists in the south, underground, smaller, and becoming generally less important.
11
We can only hope but I fear you're overly optimistic.
1
...but not without a fight. I think they WANT the streets running with blood, if only to validate their persecution complex ( and to bring Jesus back sooner than later).
We are witnessing the death throes of the bitter and angry anti-intellectuals.
We are witnessing the death throes of the bitter and angry anti-intellectuals.
1
I'm pretty much sick and tired of evangelicals passing judgement on each and every person.
9
Mayhap America, it's evangelicals included, are tired of affording politicians carte blanche to do anything they and their monied handlers want so long as they espouse "family values".
2
If your annual income is less than $250k, voting republican is voting against your own interest. Your religious beliefs, whatever they may be, are irrelevant.
10
The "evangelicals" in the USA lost their "values" decades ago. When demonizing the poor and oppressing minority voting and women's rights becomes "sacramental," it's game over. Magical thinkers are dangerous and when they're in power they're REALLY dangerous. Sharia law and fundamental Christianity; I don't see much difference—because there isn't.
12
Thanks for labelling Mr. Jefferson a "heretic" ... does that mean that all those memes floating around the Internet claiming TJ was a good, God-believing, Bible-thumping Christian will disappear?
7
Fascinating that literal adherents to a bronze age religious text criticize Trump for having bronze age attitudes.
3
If I believed in prayer I would be praying right now: When Trump loses the GOP nomination, please, please, please let him run as a third party candidate and take every Evangelical vote in the country.
7
This writer seems to think that evangelicals actually have these values. The problem isn't that evangelicals have lost their values, but that they never had them in the first place. Many evangelical tenets are not really following the teachings of Christ, but actually are just veiled ways to try to protect their own white/Christian privilege in the US. Perfect example is Kim Davis. She's a hero because she refused to marry gay people, citing the Bible. However she herself doesn't live by the law of the Bible (thrice divorced, etc). The real reason she doesn't want to marry gay people is because giving rights and a voice to the historically disenfranchised chips away at her own privilege - it's a zero sum game, to people like her. More rights for you means less power/privilege for me.
Trump is popular because he allows evangelicals to shed the Christian facade and describe what they REALLY want- to retain the power of the white Christian patriarchy in the US.
Trump is popular because he allows evangelicals to shed the Christian facade and describe what they REALLY want- to retain the power of the white Christian patriarchy in the US.
17
You are wrong about Kim Davis. She's only been a Christian for 4 years. Those divorces were all prior. It's no surprise that non-Christian's would live like everyone else. And after salvation? She'd be the first to admit that she is not perfect. She's doing her best to live according to God's Word (which she believes the bible to be) not to make her look good (she knows full well the majority of people in this country will give her grief) but to glorify God (He is not glorified because atheists think His children are just the nicest folks around - atheist definition of "nice", btw).
The author writes: "There’s no religious test for office, and there shouldn’t be."
Really? Well then why in the world are so many Republican primary candidates talking about God and or their faith all the time? To make matters worse, there are many Republican office holders who talk about God and their faith all the time – and even some Democrats, most recently in the shocking, dreadful spectacle acted out by Kim Davis.
Really? Well then why in the world are so many Republican primary candidates talking about God and or their faith all the time? To make matters worse, there are many Republican office holders who talk about God and their faith all the time – and even some Democrats, most recently in the shocking, dreadful spectacle acted out by Kim Davis.
9
Support for D. Trump is support for the unreasonably and unnecessarily moneyed and wealthy upper class, composed of people who will do all they can to keep things the way they are, who believe they are - - the entitled ones. They do this by paying low wages to the white working class in the USA; and they do this by eliminating low playing working class jobs;; and do this by putting some jobs back in for some of the white working class to have so that this working class is beholden to them, controlled by them, and afraid of them.
The wealthy direct the white working class to turn against the poor and to turn against people of color, therein, black people; black people who the wealthy enslaved and tortured, and otherwise abused, using them for free labor, while using ancestors of the white working class to brutalize black slaves.
Yes, today, the white working class supporting D. Trump, the symbol of obnoxious wealth, are carrying forth the suppression of Blacks, the poor, and immigrants, and their own marginalized condition, justifying that it is OK to do this, thus justifying the existence of the condition of poverty and the suppression of new immigrants as "just the way it is and can only be." This is done by D. Trump and his kind so that they can remain unnecessarily and unreasonably wealthy while pulling the strings of their white working class puppets whose livelihoods they control in order to exert pain and use them to "police" and otherwise control "the others”
The wealthy direct the white working class to turn against the poor and to turn against people of color, therein, black people; black people who the wealthy enslaved and tortured, and otherwise abused, using them for free labor, while using ancestors of the white working class to brutalize black slaves.
Yes, today, the white working class supporting D. Trump, the symbol of obnoxious wealth, are carrying forth the suppression of Blacks, the poor, and immigrants, and their own marginalized condition, justifying that it is OK to do this, thus justifying the existence of the condition of poverty and the suppression of new immigrants as "just the way it is and can only be." This is done by D. Trump and his kind so that they can remain unnecessarily and unreasonably wealthy while pulling the strings of their white working class puppets whose livelihoods they control in order to exert pain and use them to "police" and otherwise control "the others”
9
Trump is no different than all the other Republicans who have used Evangelicals since the times of St. Reagan. He's smart enough to realize that they are too stupid to vote in their best interest, and hypocrites to boot. None of this surprises me.
19
I don't think Mr Trump lacks a moral compass - its just calibrated differently from the author's who seems to make the common mistake (or conceit) that his, or his religion's, brand of morality is the Right One.
2
"these voters must repudiate everything they believe."
Everything they CLAIM that they believe.
From Proverbs in the Bible:
For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:
Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.
The morsel which thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words.
It has long been clear to me that evangelicals pick and choose which little segments of their theology to follow with towering hypocrisy.
Everything they CLAIM that they believe.
From Proverbs in the Bible:
For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:
Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.
The morsel which thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words.
It has long been clear to me that evangelicals pick and choose which little segments of their theology to follow with towering hypocrisy.
9
These so-called "social conservatives" and "evangelicals" never had a coherent set of values in the first place. They always paid lip service to their "principles" to mask the ugliness of their anger at everyone different from them, and their lazy entitlement.
The only difference between them, in reality, and Mr. Trump, is that he has earned, or at least conquered, for what he has. They just sit around thinking they deserve more. They would all be Trump if changing places were possible.
The only difference between them, in reality, and Mr. Trump, is that he has earned, or at least conquered, for what he has. They just sit around thinking they deserve more. They would all be Trump if changing places were possible.
6
Seems like Mr. Moore has discovered what progressives have known all along: evangelicals are hypocrites. They talk about family values and Christian values while supporting candidates and a party that worships wealth at the expense of the poor.
It's not just Trump who fails to the decency test. Every one of them do.
What would Jesus do? He'd vote Democratic.
It's not just Trump who fails to the decency test. Every one of them do.
What would Jesus do? He'd vote Democratic.
12
What do you get when you mix a pint of sewage with a barrel of wine? A barrel of sewage.
What do you get when you mix a pint of politics with a barrel of religion?
What do you get when you mix a pint of politics with a barrel of religion?
6
Just like a fever is just a symptom of a disease of the body, Trump is nothing more than a symptom of a disease infecting the American culture.
6
"Evangelicals should be leading the way on racial reconciliation." In the words of a tennis favorite of mine., "Really? Seriously?"
6
All these years of the right wing media (part, for sure, of the vast right wing conspiracy whether these people can be that honest with themselves) has left all of the Trump's supporters hot and bothered, with no chance of release.That's what Trump does.
5
Mr. Trump understands something important about evangelicals; as long as you parrot their angry gospel, it doesn't matter what you do with your life. Just ask evangelical favorites such as Newt (affair with staffer, became his 3rd wife) Gingrich, Nevada Senator John (affair with staffer) Ensign, Louisiana Senator David (many Prostitutes) Vitter, and many others. They pay homage to evangelical talking points, and do whatever they want.
It should also be no surprise that divorce rates throughout the bible belt are sky high, the state with the lowest divorce rate is liberal Massachusetts. To answer the author's question; the Evangelicals lost their values long ago, if they ever had them. They just use the bible as a cover for their prejudices.
It should also be no surprise that divorce rates throughout the bible belt are sky high, the state with the lowest divorce rate is liberal Massachusetts. To answer the author's question; the Evangelicals lost their values long ago, if they ever had them. They just use the bible as a cover for their prejudices.
16
Chazak, Chazak, Chazak,
I am 67 years old and once thought as you do. We are all Evangelicals looking for affirmation for the way we believe and act. Mark Twain in his United States of Lyncherdom talks about the courage it takes to turn back the angry mob. Today America has a leader willing to confront our self destructive prejudices and beliefs and is willing to give love to those who shower him with anger and contempt. If Bernie Sanders can understand that Liberty University is part of his America, can't we acknowledge our debt to Christian Evangelicals. Mark Twain's and John Milton's Satan always had the best arguments and we can only win with love and understanding the command of sophistry belongs to those who would destroy us.
I am 67 years old and once thought as you do. We are all Evangelicals looking for affirmation for the way we believe and act. Mark Twain in his United States of Lyncherdom talks about the courage it takes to turn back the angry mob. Today America has a leader willing to confront our self destructive prejudices and beliefs and is willing to give love to those who shower him with anger and contempt. If Bernie Sanders can understand that Liberty University is part of his America, can't we acknowledge our debt to Christian Evangelicals. Mark Twain's and John Milton's Satan always had the best arguments and we can only win with love and understanding the command of sophistry belongs to those who would destroy us.
1
They haven't lost their values. They've lost their minds!
4
When a person can state, like the Donald,he has nothing to be forgiven for, you know he must be possessed by the devil. Who will perform an exoticism on the Donald? It is our only hope for sanity to return.
3
White Evangelicals for "racial reconciliation?" Since when?
If one group has been at the forefront in peddling racist dogma in America, it's them.
Which side were they on during the Civil Rights Movement struggle in the 60s? Didn't they ignore the pleas of black baptist minister MLK and raged against him instead?
If one group has been at the forefront in peddling racist dogma in America, it's them.
Which side were they on during the Civil Rights Movement struggle in the 60s? Didn't they ignore the pleas of black baptist minister MLK and raged against him instead?
8
They never had values. Ever. Look up Google for the states with the worst statistics on divorce, deviancy, drug abuse, out of wedlock births, teen pregnancy and a raft of other anti-scoial behaviors. Their primary "value" has always been rank rancid bare-faced hypocrisy. Right from the beginning of the republic with "all men are created equal" etc.etc. Best news is that the kids are all right. FOX News and tea Party are demographic dinosaurs. America is Beautiful despite these unAmericans.
4
Maybe that side of the "culture wars" is not about the issue positions. Something comes first, the issue positions follow. That's how it works, Mr. Moore. Check Lindblom's Inquire and Change....
There's nothing new or surprising here. Evangelicals operate in a self-created bubble in which contradictions and paradoxes are the norm. There's no real consistency, despite the claim by a poster here that the appeal of evangelicals' thinking is "surety." There's the surety that you can do what you like and be as inconsistent as you like by citing your personal interpretation of your sacred text. The proof is clear: there are evangelicals who are sure God wants them to vote for Trump, and evangelicals who are sure God is telling them not to, and both are convinced the other is wrong, and both will undoubtedly cite scripture all the live long day.
We have a lot of problems in this country, but there was time in last night's debate for the contenders to take potshots at one another's practice of religion. Time for religion to be removed from politics, say I. It's just a card played to avoid rationality and personal responsibility.
We have a lot of problems in this country, but there was time in last night's debate for the contenders to take potshots at one another's practice of religion. Time for religion to be removed from politics, say I. It's just a card played to avoid rationality and personal responsibility.
5
i was raised a Roman Catholic, all the schools i attended were Catholic .I use to think of my religion as caring, generous,educated, modest, brave, soulful.When i see the word CHRISTIAN now, i think , bigot,homophobic, anti-education, misogynist, racist, divisive.
5
It is a wonder any Evangelical Christian can vote Republican. As one of America's great Seminary Professors said recently: Democratic policies are closer to the intent of the Gospel than those of the Republican Party.
5
Ahhhhh, the party of forgiveness when it comes to their own transgressions, with the exception of the Donald, who has no transgressions, ever. Knowing Trump leads in the polls, what keeps me going is thinking that the pollsters are reaching the only people in America still using a land line. So, that 32% lead only translates into let's say a hundred people, maybe two. That allows me to sleep at night. As for the pseudo-Christians that endorse Trump, if Trump is of their ilk that pretty much shows how "Christian" they are not.
1
Republican voters going against their interests? Gee, that never happens...
3
The real question ought to be "Have evangelicals who support the republican lost their minds?"
1
Based on how often the term came up in the reporting about county clerk Davis and gay marriage I got the impression that "evangelicals" were starting to rebrand themselves as "apostolics"--or is that just a regional or denominational fad? Not that renaming can possibly improve their image image in the slightest...
1
Whoever paid Russell Moore to write this smear piece is wasting their money. The last newspaper evangelical Christians would read is the New York Times.
2
I am evangelical Christian who reads the New York Times daily. I don't appreciate your presumption that you can speak for me.
1
If you're here to speak for God, you are presumptuous.
are you suggesting that evangelicals make sense? anybody who can think knows the 'family values' crowd are hypocrites. they're for capital punishment, the tea party states lead the usa in divorces, their famous 'pastors' and politicians regularly indulge in adultery, financial looting of donations from the gullible is au rigueur, they spew hatred for people who don't follow their alleged beliefs.....trump is perfect for them. it's possible to be religious and not be obnoxious. it happens less often in the usa than other western democracies......
4
In Matthew 23, condemned the Pharisees by saying in part:
"They pile heavy burdens on people’s shoulders and won’t lift a finger to help.
Everything they do is just to show off in front of others.
They even make a big show of wearing Scripture verses on their foreheads and arms.
They love the best seats at banquets and the front seats in the meeting places.
You Pharisees are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. You won’t go in yourselves, and you keep others from going in."
Jesus
That describes people like Mike Huckabee and others in the Republican party perfectly.
They make great show of their piety to raise money from others to live in splendor, but do everything to fight the teachings of Christ meant to feed and shelter the poor.
Their discussion of the "fair tax" and "consumption-based tax" is the most evil.
They know this shifts the burden of taxation to the poor and middle class, who spend all their earnings on consumption, away from the rich.
There is nothing fair about implementing a tax system which leaves enormous differences between the tax rates on disposable income.
Everyone - rich or poor - needs a basic level of food, shelter, transportation, health care, clothes, education, etc.
When someone claims a "fair tax" is a dishwasher paying the same tax rate as a billionaire, you know the devil is speaking.
"They pile heavy burdens on people’s shoulders and won’t lift a finger to help.
Everything they do is just to show off in front of others.
They even make a big show of wearing Scripture verses on their foreheads and arms.
They love the best seats at banquets and the front seats in the meeting places.
You Pharisees are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. You won’t go in yourselves, and you keep others from going in."
Jesus
That describes people like Mike Huckabee and others in the Republican party perfectly.
They make great show of their piety to raise money from others to live in splendor, but do everything to fight the teachings of Christ meant to feed and shelter the poor.
Their discussion of the "fair tax" and "consumption-based tax" is the most evil.
They know this shifts the burden of taxation to the poor and middle class, who spend all their earnings on consumption, away from the rich.
There is nothing fair about implementing a tax system which leaves enormous differences between the tax rates on disposable income.
Everyone - rich or poor - needs a basic level of food, shelter, transportation, health care, clothes, education, etc.
When someone claims a "fair tax" is a dishwasher paying the same tax rate as a billionaire, you know the devil is speaking.
11
Evangelicals lost their values when they supported Mormon Mitt Romney in the general election against Barack Obama. Evangelicals in poll after poll said they could not vote for a Mormon, because in their view Mormonism was a cult not a religion. Well, as exit polls showed in 2012, Evangelicals voted in droves for Mitt Romney for President in the General, which goes to show that even with Evangelicals their values are negotiable.
2
The root of this seeming contradiction can be found in the fact that too many evangelicals in this country have taken the "no salvation through works" doctrine to what they see as its logical endpoint, which is: "I don't have to actually live like Jesus taught his followers to live, I just have to mouth the words that he is my lord and savior."
2
I think Trump's popularity with evangelicals, is a pretty clear indication that evangelicals are more like other people than we are led to believe.
People are sick of the two parties in the US, and a do nothing know nothing GOP that obstructs everything.
Trump has shown an ability to size up conflicts and issues that other candidates simply don't have. There's a certain street sense and confidence to what he says, and a sense more often than not, that he's assessed things squarely.
He phrasing may at times be inflammatory, even deliberately so. His support for positions, like linking autism and vaccination, are simply ignorant. But to whom does such ignorance tend to appeal?
The notion we are told, is that republican voters (and presumably independents and right thinking democrats) all crave conservative values, fiscal restraint (cutting entitlements), military spending, states rights (code for whatever), and guns.
I think what Trump's support shows us, is that people don't crave any of the values the political parties hold out as bedrock principles. That's what the party(s) wants to believe, but its not how people actually feel.
And when given the choice to escape the party's dogma, people run towards it, and away from the established party platforms, with all possible haste.
Reagan was the great obfuscator. And the GOP has been wandering in a fog ever since.
People are sick of the two parties in the US, and a do nothing know nothing GOP that obstructs everything.
Trump has shown an ability to size up conflicts and issues that other candidates simply don't have. There's a certain street sense and confidence to what he says, and a sense more often than not, that he's assessed things squarely.
He phrasing may at times be inflammatory, even deliberately so. His support for positions, like linking autism and vaccination, are simply ignorant. But to whom does such ignorance tend to appeal?
The notion we are told, is that republican voters (and presumably independents and right thinking democrats) all crave conservative values, fiscal restraint (cutting entitlements), military spending, states rights (code for whatever), and guns.
I think what Trump's support shows us, is that people don't crave any of the values the political parties hold out as bedrock principles. That's what the party(s) wants to believe, but its not how people actually feel.
And when given the choice to escape the party's dogma, people run towards it, and away from the established party platforms, with all possible haste.
Reagan was the great obfuscator. And the GOP has been wandering in a fog ever since.
1
As for me and my family we will trade our values to keep Bill & Hillary out of the White House.
Evangelicals want government out of their lives except when it come to their right to control women's body functions, there they want 24/365 surveillance.
Evangelical 'values' is an oxymoron.
Like the employee that would not approve marriage licenses for same sex couples, the evangelicals approve of a set type of sins; i.e. adultery, greed, racism and so on.
If the Republican party could break free of it's own RELIGIOUS extremists, they could win an election and the USA could regain it's dignity and our country could begin to rebuild the respect from other countries that has been lost.
Evangelical 'values' is an oxymoron.
Like the employee that would not approve marriage licenses for same sex couples, the evangelicals approve of a set type of sins; i.e. adultery, greed, racism and so on.
If the Republican party could break free of it's own RELIGIOUS extremists, they could win an election and the USA could regain it's dignity and our country could begin to rebuild the respect from other countries that has been lost.
3
The marriage of evangelical Christianity and the Republican Party is one of the great conundrums of our time. From their full throated support of the Iraq invasion along with turning a blind eye towards the sins of that war, including torture, has shown them to be more like the Pharisees of the New Testament than dedicated followers of Jesus. Their Pharisaical support of Kim Davis fits those whom Jesus decried, being people who liked to pray in public and to display their wealth in their synagogues to be seen of men. This behavior is also coupled with the Randian philosophy of demonizing the poor and finding ways to make their lot even more miserable when possible, hardly Christian behavior. Gibbons found early Christianity to have been one of the factors bringing about the fall of the Roman Empire, and certainly they are not lending much support to the regeneration of this nation with their stubborn adherence to ignorance. To quote Scripture, I find them to be empty sepulchers full of whited bones. Their behavior daily confirms my choice to leave religion, especially Christianity, behind, since it is nothing more then another institution designed to prey on humanity and all of our insecurities. A modern day Jew has recently taken them to task regarding their allegiance to these modern day Pharisees, but I doubt they'll listen, anymore than those who were presented with same message 2,000 years ago.
2
Although Trump does not appear to be a strong Christian, ironically, I believe he will do more for the rights of Christians than some of the other candidates because he has common sense, and most importantly, he is willing to fight.
It's no good to have strong Christians in office, if they won't even fight to stop funding of the dismemberment and sale of human body parts.
It's no good to have strong Christians in office, if they won't even fight to stop funding of the dismemberment and sale of human body parts.
You assume evangelicals follow the precepts of the religion. Most do not. They develop a list of rules and try to force everyone else to follow them, but when it comes to the golden rule, they don't follow up. Jesus Christ did not shun sinners, he did not advocate war, he called upon all to help the poor. Pope Francis follows Jesus teachings to a point. The Catholic church has a lot of lay rules but Catholics are not rabid like many evangelicals. You have to look back to the witch hunts in this country, or look at the radical islamists to find a parallel.
5
Evangelicals and conservative Christians have been making pacts with devils since I can remember.
Nixon, Reagan, bush ii all lured supposed right to lifers into their camps as they lied us into three wars.
You have supported right to life candidates who were eager to put to death many people who shouldn't have been put to death.
You people say you support the right of a baby to be born, yet when a 5 year old needs assistance with food and shelter to thrive you turn your backs and blame the choices his parents made for his bad luck.
American evangelical movements really started to catch on when the oligarchs of the 30's thought a little old time religion might be just the antidote to Roosevelt's New Deal. Handouts being un-godly, and all.
Donald Trump is the result of the cancer you have helped to instill in the body politic and my hope is that he causes the ruin of the fascist republican party and not the entire Country.
Nixon, Reagan, bush ii all lured supposed right to lifers into their camps as they lied us into three wars.
You have supported right to life candidates who were eager to put to death many people who shouldn't have been put to death.
You people say you support the right of a baby to be born, yet when a 5 year old needs assistance with food and shelter to thrive you turn your backs and blame the choices his parents made for his bad luck.
American evangelical movements really started to catch on when the oligarchs of the 30's thought a little old time religion might be just the antidote to Roosevelt's New Deal. Handouts being un-godly, and all.
Donald Trump is the result of the cancer you have helped to instill in the body politic and my hope is that he causes the ruin of the fascist republican party and not the entire Country.
2
An excellent article that will be read by few evangelicals. Still, courageous for Mr. Moore. However, church folk believing Donald Trump is God's choice for America shouldn't be all that surprising: a drive through the south finds churches (Southern Baptist, also) competing with each other not only for the size of campuses, but also for the number of American flags that can be planted outdoors. If you're taught values such as these, Mr. Trump can only be the inevitable choice.
4
Yeah, uh Jefferson isn't a "heretic" unless he's actually a member of your church. Outside of religious tyranny you don't get to make that call.
Maybe you ought to consider that your flock isn't straying from their beliefs at all: your authoritarian, fundamentalist nonsense has never been anything but a deliberate regime of hypocrisy--which is why "heretics" like Jefferson walked away from both state religion and deceitful fanatics.
Maybe you ought to consider that your flock isn't straying from their beliefs at all: your authoritarian, fundamentalist nonsense has never been anything but a deliberate regime of hypocrisy--which is why "heretics" like Jefferson walked away from both state religion and deceitful fanatics.
4
I disagree with Mr. Moore, We should demand that Trump produce his long form birth certificate, if only to remove the stigma of parentage from our Orangutan friends who reputation for gentility has been tarnished by association with the 800 pound gorilla on the debate stage.
3
One has to has to first possess something in order to consider it "lost". Nothing more divisive in society today than ideals based on faith. In the end, they create a pretext for hate or establishing/re-establishing property rights. If there's one thin the founders got right from the get-go secularism.
1
Somehow I don't see Trump's "Bronze Age Warlord" view of women and evangelicals' view of women as all that different--they both view us as subordinate beings with our fates prescribed by our biology.
3
Trump seems to signify being decisive, getting things done in a dangerous, do nothing world. his comments about raising taxes on the wealthy show a certain "love and protect thy neighbor" rather than "denigrating" the poor and the weak. he brags and values wealth and success but doesn't seem completely Darwinian. I think the evangelicals who have been patiently supporting the party establishment for decades and getting no results are making a conscious choice.
Evangelicals, Jerry Falwell's Religious Right, took over the Republican party years ago, therefore if Mr. Trump is in the lead, he's their man for better or for worse. Irrationality is not a factor, winning is.
1
Evangelicals, from what I see, have more in common with Islamic fundamentalism than with American democracy in that they are intolerant of the right of others to believe differently than they do. Even though that is the founding principal of the country.
The debate "candidates" clearly show that they will do and say anything to get support for their equally self-seeking agendas. The congress is replete with people unwilling to govern through reasonable compromise. Let's dump them all this time, while we still have some air that is breathable.
The debate "candidates" clearly show that they will do and say anything to get support for their equally self-seeking agendas. The congress is replete with people unwilling to govern through reasonable compromise. Let's dump them all this time, while we still have some air that is breathable.
1
Mr. Moore wrote this op-ed from the wrong approach. He comes from a point of view that people make rational decisions after a lengthy period of careful deliberation, soul-searching, and thoughtful reading in search of the truth. Nowhere does he talk about raw emotion - the kind that riles up the Tea Party. If ever there was an example of stimulus-response, stimulus-response it is displayed on a daily basis by these low-brow louts - you know, God's children. That these people exist in large numbers should put Mr. Moore's faith to the test because what I have seen so far of the Republican mind-set brings evokes the images of Dawkins more than Darwin; Richard not Charles.
1
In my experience evangelicals are some of the worst kind of people you will ever cross, just like Trump. In almost all instances evangelicals are more likely to judge another person rather than show by example how a person should behave in a civil society. Anyone guess who judges the most on live TV? No surprise here as to why evangelicals support Trump. They are just reflecting (supporting) what they see in the mirror every day.
3
Actions speak louder than words. if someone is a Christian they don't need to stand on a podium and announce it. It ought to be obvious to everyone through the way he or she lives life. And really, it doesn,t matter what religion someone follows. What matters is how that person lives in this world and what he generates in it. If evangelicals admire and support the values that Trump promotes then maybe they simply are not really what they say they are.
3
Maybe Evangelicals are simply growing up. Thomas Jefferson is an excellent example of an effective and important politician who was far from perfect given his children by a slave he owned. However, just with Bill Clinton, the effectiveness of he person in doing the job does not appear to be tied to some of these moral litmus tests. A better measure of character is to see what someone does on a larger issue - Do they show political courage? Are they doing what is best for the "people," not just "their people?" This false connection suggesting that strong, bible-based values is the only way to produce a good President is demonstrably false. I would also point out that several of the holier-than-thou self-appointed prosecutors of Clinton had skeletons come out of their closet later.
Having said this, I agree that Trumps actions in his treatment of women, shallow thinking on a variety of issues from immigration to international relations, and highly questionable business success (anyone can make money in Real Estate in NYC, especially when you overlook the BKs and failures and just look at recent activity) should be relevant to voters. It is important not because of what it says about his Christian values, but rather because of what it says about his competence and fitness for the office.
Having said this, I agree that Trumps actions in his treatment of women, shallow thinking on a variety of issues from immigration to international relations, and highly questionable business success (anyone can make money in Real Estate in NYC, especially when you overlook the BKs and failures and just look at recent activity) should be relevant to voters. It is important not because of what it says about his Christian values, but rather because of what it says about his competence and fitness for the office.
The premise of the article is that evangelicals follow in the steps of Jesus' teachings while Trump most decidedly doesn't.
Well, the premise is wrong. Evangelicals are a political breed not a religious breed; they use God to further racism, isolationism, homophobia, and the general ignorance of the state of the world from Climate Change to Evolution.
If you look at how Evangelicals act, as opposed to how virtuous they claim they are, Trump is clearly their natural leader.
Well, the premise is wrong. Evangelicals are a political breed not a religious breed; they use God to further racism, isolationism, homophobia, and the general ignorance of the state of the world from Climate Change to Evolution.
If you look at how Evangelicals act, as opposed to how virtuous they claim they are, Trump is clearly their natural leader.
5
Win or lose, if Trump can convince Evangelicals to dump their so called values he will have accomplished a great deal for the rest of us.
4
Evangelicals are an extremely diverse community, represented by scores of denominations and countless independent churches. They have differing views on lots of topics, both in doctrine and practice. Probably the bulk of republican candidates have some measure of evangelical support. Other evangelicals do not participate in the political process.
Please be careful not to paint evangelicals with too broad a brush based on limited exposure or particular experiences.
Please be careful not to paint evangelicals with too broad a brush based on limited exposure or particular experiences.
We must remind ourselves that true leadership is best exemplified by hope, courage, and strength, rather than anger, fear, and hubris. I fear that too many have forgotten this simple idea. If we allow a man who bullies and ridicules rather than one who offers real solutions and discussion to become president, it would be a very sad description of who Americans want America to become.
1
I do wish evangelicals would as closely follow the uplifting passages of the Bible as they do the condemnatory ones. Love permeates the Bible, a book that hardly refers to homosexuality at all.
Trump claimed not to have a favorite Bible verse but it is clear to any one who listens to him and he even says it in one of his books that it is "An eye for an eye."
1
All we need to know about Southern Baptists (and I grew up one): Robert Jeffress, pastor of the largest congregation (First Baptist Dallas) and a Romney advisor, called Obama's agenda - feeding the hungry, helping the sick, clothing the naked - "unchristian" on national television.
11
The one connection I can see is the act of willful ignorance on the part
of both Trump and his evangelical followers, especially as concerns simple minded solutions to intractable problems like immigration, income inequality, and foreign entanglements. The hypocrisy Trump openly displays
is no problem at all for the evangelicals. After all, it's built into their belief system.
of both Trump and his evangelical followers, especially as concerns simple minded solutions to intractable problems like immigration, income inequality, and foreign entanglements. The hypocrisy Trump openly displays
is no problem at all for the evangelicals. After all, it's built into their belief system.
2
I hope Moore and other serious evangelicals who take their faith seriously are coming to the realization all the rest of us made: a vast number of people who say they are "real Christians" follow not a single one of Jesus's teachings. In their churches they enshrine the U.S. flag. Their sacred text whatever part of the Constitution they choose to follow at the moment, plus a few Bible verses about heathens, conquest, subordination of women, and a couple of lines about sodomy. They have no interest in humility, temperance, any chastity or marital fidelity other than denying that gays have them, peace, justice, kindness, welcoming the widowed, orphaned, foreign, imprisoned, or anything else Jesus taught, with the exception of a "kingdom of God"—and misunderstanding that, like some of the disciples before Pentecost, to be a real-world nation-state brought about by military action. This is a particularly American "Christianity" that focuses on a sort of Zeus-Odin-Thor-amalgam of God that is completely divorced from the teachings of Jesus. These people love Donald Trump, and shows exactly what kind of values they have. None.
8
Evangelicals values? You mean hate, judgement, racism and misogyny?
34
I doubt if you will every convince evangelicals to change their minds on important issues with those claims. Most evangelicals are probably good people and share many good values. The trick is to appeal to values held in common and deal with differences rationally.
What is propelling Evangelist to support Trump is his anti immigrant, especially anti Mexican rhetoric.
Trump could have values totally not those of Evangelist but as long as he is anti immigrant that suits them.
Trump could have values totally not those of Evangelist but as long as he is anti immigrant that suits them.
3
"Donald...beating all comers in virtually every demographic of the primary electorate.". Wrong! He leads the republicans and this is no surprise. He spews the hatred of the "others", which is the republican credo.
As it relates to "evangelicals"(an oxymoron), these people hate the "others" and think it is mandated by God. A more judgmental group you will never find and Donald is just saying what they believe.
As it relates to "evangelicals"(an oxymoron), these people hate the "others" and think it is mandated by God. A more judgmental group you will never find and Donald is just saying what they believe.
8
This may not be polite, but the reason is that they are, if nothing else, astoundingly hypocritical. This hypocrisy has been documented time and time again on a host of issues.
12
Mr. Moore,
I don't support everything about Trump, but I'm tired of him being judged by holier-than-thou closed-minded politically and religiously correct experts on morality. I've been married 39 years to the same woman but I don't look down on people who divorce. Who am I to judge the soul wrenching decisions others make? If Trump has a bronze age warlord attitude toward women then it should also be noted that evangelicals and most Republicans have cave man attitudes toward women. What else could explain their war on a woman's right to make her own choices? To denigrate Trump's openness and expression of humility about his privilege of taking communion is really a toxic small minded call-out. Why would you do that? I suppose from your judgmental pulpit he didn't use the right words to describe a religious experience.
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV)
I don't support everything about Trump, but I'm tired of him being judged by holier-than-thou closed-minded politically and religiously correct experts on morality. I've been married 39 years to the same woman but I don't look down on people who divorce. Who am I to judge the soul wrenching decisions others make? If Trump has a bronze age warlord attitude toward women then it should also be noted that evangelicals and most Republicans have cave man attitudes toward women. What else could explain their war on a woman's right to make her own choices? To denigrate Trump's openness and expression of humility about his privilege of taking communion is really a toxic small minded call-out. Why would you do that? I suppose from your judgmental pulpit he didn't use the right words to describe a religious experience.
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV)
3
Kaydea,
I am not prepared to judge Donald Trump as to his character or his integrity. I am reminded of why I find his politics so disturbing.
The Bible was written mostly in Hebrew and was lyrical, harmonious and balanced. The King James version was none of the above. It grates on the nerves, it is discordant in tone and thought and conveys none of the understanding that poetry and song are meant to convey.
Does that make the King James Version bad ? No it just isn't the Bible.
I am not prepared to judge Donald Trump as to his character or his integrity. I am reminded of why I find his politics so disturbing.
The Bible was written mostly in Hebrew and was lyrical, harmonious and balanced. The King James version was none of the above. It grates on the nerves, it is discordant in tone and thought and conveys none of the understanding that poetry and song are meant to convey.
Does that make the King James Version bad ? No it just isn't the Bible.
Donald Trump is the epitome of that perversion known as the "Prosperity Gospel." He must be righteous because he has been so richly rewarded.
Funny the only time I hear that sort quote from Job is when they're complaining how much society oppresses them.
Funny the only time I hear that sort quote from Job is when they're complaining how much society oppresses them.
5
Does that mean he is competition with John Oliver's Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption church. What has always surprised me is that much of the leadership of other churches criticize these hucksters.
And so begins the GOP take down.
4
Right wing 'evangelical' politicians have usually been rank hypocrites. While prosecuting Clinton for lying about an affair, Gingrich was having one himself.
While pushing the so-called 'Defense of Marriage Act' its Champion Bob Barr had himself been divorced three times. Clearly marriage should have been defended from him.
And lately, their hero in Kentucky who simply can't allow couples who have already been together for decades to get married, has herself been married 4 times and was an adultress as well since its been reported she became pregnant with the child of her third husband while still married to the second.
Good thing she didn't have an abortion or she would surely be condemned to hell for all eternity.
While pushing the so-called 'Defense of Marriage Act' its Champion Bob Barr had himself been divorced three times. Clearly marriage should have been defended from him.
And lately, their hero in Kentucky who simply can't allow couples who have already been together for decades to get married, has herself been married 4 times and was an adultress as well since its been reported she became pregnant with the child of her third husband while still married to the second.
Good thing she didn't have an abortion or she would surely be condemned to hell for all eternity.
7
Sorry, Mr. Moore, but you lost the "culture wars" the first time the daughter of a certain culture warrior and VP Candidate, flaunted an out-of-wedlock pregnancy. The second time is just another metaphoric nail in the coffin.
1
Sorry, but evangelicals have been hypocritical long before their love affair with Mr. Trump.
8
"Watching a cartoonish TV character deliver authoritarian lines ...". Exactly. Since Evangelicals moved into politics some decades ago now, they have been attracted not by "values", but by power. And this fits their world view perfectly. Fear God. Wives obey your husbands. Children obey your parents. In their world of structured, hierarchical power, of course they look for a leader who they can follow ... and eventually obey?
4
Evangelical support for Trump exposes the hypocrisy inherent in the American "Christian" value system. After all, for many conservatives, fear of the other and protectionism have trumped (sorry) compassion and humanism for a long time. Putting your chips on Trump (sorry again) might actually be an obvious choice.
4
As a current student at a Southern Baptist seminary, I am thankful for Dr. Moore's thoughts. I think evangelical support of Donald Trump, while troubling on a few levels, is just an unavoidably obvious manifestation of the hypocrisy that has been a part of many (not all) evangelicals' attempts to pick and choose when to "think Biblically" about politics.
121
Considering that 95% of the evangelicals I know are low-information, mean-spirited hypocrites, Trump is a fit.
37
Speaking from personal experience, there's a lot of truth to that.
"Most illogical is his support from evangelicals and other social conservatives. To back Mr. Trump, these voters must repudiate everything they believe."
Most illogical is religion itself meaning the faithful have a tremendous capacity for doublethink. So, they need not repudiate anything. Religion is also tribal and in Trump, we have the alpha male.
Why, pray tell, is anyone surprised?
Most illogical is religion itself meaning the faithful have a tremendous capacity for doublethink. So, they need not repudiate anything. Religion is also tribal and in Trump, we have the alpha male.
Why, pray tell, is anyone surprised?
10
What are evangelical "values"?
Evangelical values devolved from the Ku Klux Klans and the White Citizens Councils into the Republican Confederate Tea Party. The majority of the poorly educated single parent multiple married poor Americans on welfare are white. While the proportion of blacks in those categories is higher, there are 5x as many white people.
Kim Davis ( 4 marriages), Newt Gingrich (3 marriages), Bristol Palin (1 marriage and 1 baby daddy), Levi Johnston ( no marriages and 1 baby momma), Terry Sanford ( 2 marriages), John Edwards ( 1 marriage and 1 baby momma), John McCain ( 2 marriages), Rush Limbaugh (4 marriages) and Ronald Reagan( 2 marriages) all reflect the iconic embodiment of evangelical values.
Evangelical values devolved from the Ku Klux Klans and the White Citizens Councils into the Republican Confederate Tea Party. The majority of the poorly educated single parent multiple married poor Americans on welfare are white. While the proportion of blacks in those categories is higher, there are 5x as many white people.
Kim Davis ( 4 marriages), Newt Gingrich (3 marriages), Bristol Palin (1 marriage and 1 baby daddy), Levi Johnston ( no marriages and 1 baby momma), Terry Sanford ( 2 marriages), John Edwards ( 1 marriage and 1 baby momma), John McCain ( 2 marriages), Rush Limbaugh (4 marriages) and Ronald Reagan( 2 marriages) all reflect the iconic embodiment of evangelical values.
13
"are we really ready to trade unity with our black and brown brothers and sisters for this angry politician?"
To whom are you addressing this insulting question?
The implication is that all evangelicals are white, because it is clearly not directed at any nonwhite members of your belief.
No better than Trump's offhand racism.
To whom are you addressing this insulting question?
The implication is that all evangelicals are white, because it is clearly not directed at any nonwhite members of your belief.
No better than Trump's offhand racism.
10
I have long thought that the brainwashing fundamentalists receive from the pulpit leaves them naively open to brainwashing from the political Right. So why should anyone be surprised that they so easily glom onto the message of Donald Trump?
Get people used to swallowing propaganda with no ability to reason about the issues themselves and you get voters unable to rationally consider the arguments proposed by people they view as authoritative. Once you begin to deny evolution and climate change and somehow believe every single word in the Bible is true, irregardless of science on the one hand and modern biblical scholarship on the other, not to speak of the contradictory mandates within the bible itself, people are ready to swallow almost anything from someone whose rallies seem more like the "call and response" method of fundamentalist preachers.
Gather that together with the power of being in a group, roused to an emotional pitch, whether in church or at a political rally, and voila! People are willing to swallow the Pablum.
It is actually frightening to see the way Trump's style and message are seeding so much division and outright hatred. And the potential that the movement Started by and around Trump could IGNITE violence is very worrisome!
Get people used to swallowing propaganda with no ability to reason about the issues themselves and you get voters unable to rationally consider the arguments proposed by people they view as authoritative. Once you begin to deny evolution and climate change and somehow believe every single word in the Bible is true, irregardless of science on the one hand and modern biblical scholarship on the other, not to speak of the contradictory mandates within the bible itself, people are ready to swallow almost anything from someone whose rallies seem more like the "call and response" method of fundamentalist preachers.
Gather that together with the power of being in a group, roused to an emotional pitch, whether in church or at a political rally, and voila! People are willing to swallow the Pablum.
It is actually frightening to see the way Trump's style and message are seeding so much division and outright hatred. And the potential that the movement Started by and around Trump could IGNITE violence is very worrisome!
14
If Jesus were to encounter a stadium full of evangelicals, he would be hard pressed to identify even one who shared his values.
39
If those who follow Jesus truly believe that "blessed are the meek," how can they support the likes of Donald Trump (or any of the other pretenders)? Does any of them qualify as meek or do only the meek followers qualify for the blessing?
2
If you have blinded yourself to the truly good things done by Planned Parenthood, as this writer evidently has, then you are ready to shade any truth in the pursuit of your ideology. The battle against Planned Parenthood is not just about forcing the birth of unwanted children into lives of suffering, but about increasing deaths from cancer. Planned Parenthood puts far more resources into cancer screening and other womens' health efforts than it does into abortion.
7
The writer dismisses Trump (perhaps accurately) as a "Bronze Age warlord" yet places his own faith in Bronze Age mythology (King James translation circa 1611). Neither proves his metal.
6
Have Evangelicals Who Support Trump Lost Their Values?"
These so-called "Evangelicals" have no values that Jesus would recognize as His values.
These so-called "Evangelicals" have no values that Jesus would recognize as His values.
3
"Blood alone moves the wheels of history!"
-- Dwight Schrute / Benito Mussolini
-- Dwight Schrute / Benito Mussolini
2
You're making an assumption that evangelicals support candidates who support the values of evangelicals. Is withholding medical care from the poor a value of evangelicals? Trump supports expansion of Medicare. Is preventing Christian immigrants from entering the United States a value of evangelicals? Trump supports immigration reform and a road to citizenship. Is lowering taxes on the rich while raising them on the poor a value of evangelicals? Trump supports closing the carried interest loophole. Maybe evangelicals support Trump because he does support policies that coincide with evangelical values.
1
What a hoot. No, that happened quite a while back with evangelical support of torture, outright bigotry and lies about the President, pitting yourselves against women's healthcare by spreading lies, and supporting wars to the tune of trillions. The guy running the largest Baptist church in Dallas is a stone cold bigot. The problem is not Trump.
12
You guys never had values, over in social-conservative land. You had following orders. You had doing what your preacher told you, even if that preacher told you something different last month. Until the 1980s, did you know that Protestants, including Baptists, were pro-choice? You made the decision to repudiate women's rights in that time-frame in order to gain political power. You threw your morals under the bus then, and you're surprised that it's so obvious now?
Trump is popular among evangelicals because American evangelicalism is a toxic stew of misogyny, racism, my-country-right-or-wrong nationalism, xenophobia, and anti-science rhetoric. Trump fits right in. The only thing different is evangelicals cloak their judgmentalism in the Bible, and Trump doesn't bother with that façade.
Trump is popular among evangelicals because American evangelicalism is a toxic stew of misogyny, racism, my-country-right-or-wrong nationalism, xenophobia, and anti-science rhetoric. Trump fits right in. The only thing different is evangelicals cloak their judgmentalism in the Bible, and Trump doesn't bother with that façade.
21
Are Evangelicals who support Trump a uniform, homogeneous group? Probably not. But many of them owe their "bible" views to strains of Calvinism and to the even more toxic teachings of John Knox. The vectors in such cases were Scots and Scots-Irish who fled oppression only to become themselves the oppressors. The "elect" have no obligation to respect the "damned." What kind of values are those? They are un-American.
6
Trumps baseball cap should read "Make America White Again"
5
Another shot at Planned Parenthood... Another slam at the only provider of health services for poor women. Mr. Moore, you make an attempt at a thoughtful article concerning 'values', but parrot Fox right wing slams at some of the most vulnerable of our society. You should read the rest of what Jesus said to his disciples. I would bet you and your wife use birth control but you and your Convention would deny the poor the same reproductive choices. I see hypocrisy, racism and elitism behind your faith.
30
The qualifier among Evangelicals, I think, is their exposure to other points of view. The entertainment industry has influenced them more than they themselves probably realize. Almost every home here in the country with few exceptions has satellite TV. They can only spend so much of their viewing time on Fox News. Even the Hallmark channel can present them with social challenges met & accepted by the characters, shedding light on our modern lives.
Donald Trump's boorishness is just a reflection of themselves in a changing world. Their homes are their castles, however & they will adjust increasingly to live under the next Democratic administration.
Donald Trump's boorishness is just a reflection of themselves in a changing world. Their homes are their castles, however & they will adjust increasingly to live under the next Democratic administration.
5
It is clear to me that many on the right, including evangelicals, are single- or dual-issue voters, their big issue being abortion. If a candidate will promise to appoint anti-abortion judges to the Supreme Court then these voters will overlook any and all flaws in a candidate's private life and his/her views on most other issues. The other major issue for evangelicals is unwavering support for Israel. They need this to reinforce their end-times scenarios which will usher in the second coming.
27
It seems to me that Trump exemplifies precisely the values to the modern evangelical, at least those that vote for today's Republicans. Like those evangelicals he denigrates the poor and weak, champions the powerful and greedy and sees honesty and integrity as a weakness. It took me over 30 years to fully shed my own evangelical roots. That was partly because early on when someone told me they were Christian I expected that they were kind, compassionate and interested in a greater good, causing me to want to believe in the theology. Now, when someone identifies themselves as Christian I grow suspicious that they are mean-spirited, dishonest and lacking of the ability to think themselves out of a room with four open doors. One of the few Christian voices that gives me hope is pope Francis. May he succeed in leading his flock back to a more Christ-like focus.
64
The facts do not support your statements about evangelicals. The Barna Group's report in 2013 about "American Donor Trends" revealed the following:
"Evangelicals were far and away the group most likely to donate money, items or time as a volunteer. More than three-quarters of evangelicals (79%) have donated money in the last year, and 65% and 60% of them have donated items or volunteer time, respectively. Additionally, only 1% of evangelicals say they made no charitable donation in the last 12 months."
"Evangelicals were far and away the group most likely to donate money, items or time as a volunteer. More than three-quarters of evangelicals (79%) have donated money in the last year, and 65% and 60% of them have donated items or volunteer time, respectively. Additionally, only 1% of evangelicals say they made no charitable donation in the last 12 months."
Exactly.
If "evangelicals" followed the teachings of Christ, it would be impossible for them to rationalise a vote for any modern Republican.
If "evangelicals" followed the teachings of Christ, it would be impossible for them to rationalise a vote for any modern Republican.
My feelings exactly, great point.
The collusion between the right wing Republicans and the Evangelical movement is longstanding and well documented. Those Evangelicals sold their souls a long time ago. And since when does morality come down to only the question of sex; who one has it with, whether or not one uses contraception, inside or outside of marriage? I thought the message of Jesus was to take care of the poor and unwanted, somehow most of his most ardent followers seem to have discarded that for a laser bean focus on sexuality. Weird.
11
Yes they have. Anyone who supports Trump has lost whatever moral compass they contain within their soul. Trump's bloated ego and verbal attacks upon others reflect nothing of Jesus Christ, but instead his own insecurity, buttressed by his wall of money. As a devout, conservative Christian I would either abstain from voting, or seriously consider Hillary Clinton (even with all of the moral contradictions that would pose for me) before I would vote for Trump. I don't think we'll get that, as I think true character (as well as smarts) will win out in the Republican primary.
7
I think the evangelicals mentioned here are simply suffering from, to borrow a phrase in use by my conservative friends pre 2008, Obama Derangement Syndrome, and are just looking for someone who can make them feel like winners again. even though Obama isn't running. I wonder what would happen if everyone in the US refused to answer the questions of pollsters between now and when the voting actually happens?
2
"Most illogical is his support from evangelicals and other social conservatives. To back Mr. Trump, these voters must repudiate everything they believe."
Well, they either believe it or they don't. I'm a firm believer that actions speak louder than words. If they're truly for Trump--and not just the flash, spectacle, and chaos--they need to do some soul searching. But of course, soul searching is a lost commodity in today's US.
I wonder how many would be for Trump if all they had were transcripts of every campaign speech. Something they had to read, not watch. Take away the TV coverage, and would Trump's message still resonate? Perhaps yes, perhaps no, but I think his followers are so taken with the shimmer of his persona that their ears can't interpret what he's saying.
In one of the always covered Trump campaign speeches, Trump invited a pastor--a pastor!--up to the stage to give him thanks for helping him organize the event. The weirdness of seeing a flagrantly immoral man standing next to a man of God was unsettling.
Evangelical supporters of Trump are making a pact with the Devil, if they follow the Bible literally. They just don't realize it yet.
Well, they either believe it or they don't. I'm a firm believer that actions speak louder than words. If they're truly for Trump--and not just the flash, spectacle, and chaos--they need to do some soul searching. But of course, soul searching is a lost commodity in today's US.
I wonder how many would be for Trump if all they had were transcripts of every campaign speech. Something they had to read, not watch. Take away the TV coverage, and would Trump's message still resonate? Perhaps yes, perhaps no, but I think his followers are so taken with the shimmer of his persona that their ears can't interpret what he's saying.
In one of the always covered Trump campaign speeches, Trump invited a pastor--a pastor!--up to the stage to give him thanks for helping him organize the event. The weirdness of seeing a flagrantly immoral man standing next to a man of God was unsettling.
Evangelical supporters of Trump are making a pact with the Devil, if they follow the Bible literally. They just don't realize it yet.
11
Donald Trump does not seem to be any more confused or conflicted than any other person who claims to be religious. Most just seem to use moral guidance to find a way to blame those with less for their own predicament rather than as a call to forgiveness and nurturing.
6
Keep the faith, evangelicals. It is early days. Don't mistake show for substance. Trump is a Christian like Bugs Bunny is a real rabbit. Trump will be gone by this time next year. It's all political theater and he is a master of it. The man is a vulgar populist who is in the game for himself. He is not going to spend his fortune on a losing proposition. Once he sees he is losing the Presidential race, he will quit. He is never going to be President.
52
Best comment yet.
Gender roles are huge among evangelicals. For some, it's an earnest attempt to conform to the teachings of the Bible. But I've had discussions with men who used "complementarianism" in evangelical circles as a justification for their own basic disrespect for women and desire to keep us down. They're upfront about it, and when challenged they hide behind single Bible verses taken out of context, about women needing to be busy at home and so forth.
So just as bank robbers rob banks because that's where the money is, misogynists who want justification and support for their disrespect for women and desire to oppress us may be drawn to evangelicalism because that's where they find complementarian theories support those rigid gender roles they want to force on us. And for those evangelicals, Trump's repeated display of disrespect and contempt for women by word and deed are a feature, not a bug.
Thank you, Russell Moore, for calling him, and those evangelicals, out.
So just as bank robbers rob banks because that's where the money is, misogynists who want justification and support for their disrespect for women and desire to oppress us may be drawn to evangelicalism because that's where they find complementarian theories support those rigid gender roles they want to force on us. And for those evangelicals, Trump's repeated display of disrespect and contempt for women by word and deed are a feature, not a bug.
Thank you, Russell Moore, for calling him, and those evangelicals, out.
10
Evangelicals as "leading the way on racial reconciliation" and refusing to "trade unity with our black and brown brothers and sisters"?
Really? There may be evangelicals who love rather than fear/hate those who do not look or act like them. But if they exist, they clearly don't have the megaphones of those on the religious right who seem almost hardwired to pollute our social environment with fear and hatred. And that's why I'm in no way surprised by evangelical support for one of the most foul-mouthed polluters yet to arise out of the detritus of a once grand Party, a Party which is now reaping what it has sown with its divide and conquer tactics.
Really? There may be evangelicals who love rather than fear/hate those who do not look or act like them. But if they exist, they clearly don't have the megaphones of those on the religious right who seem almost hardwired to pollute our social environment with fear and hatred. And that's why I'm in no way surprised by evangelical support for one of the most foul-mouthed polluters yet to arise out of the detritus of a once grand Party, a Party which is now reaping what it has sown with its divide and conquer tactics.
23
That Evangelicals might be crowding around Donald Trump and receiving his ideas with approval confirms my decades-long suspicion that they are control freaks. Evangelicals, those who cannot open their mouths without letting the word "Jesus" tumble out, are all about authority and control of others. Based on Scripture and rules that come from somebody's (or many somebodies') imagination(s). They don't need proof and they don't learn from experience. Authoritarianism draws them like a magnet.
15
I know a lot of Evangelicals and Trump is not he favorite of any of them, most dismiss him as a boastful blowhard. However, I'm guessing that just about all of them would vote for him if he is the nominee because all of them are rational enough to know that this country cannot possibly bare another democratic administration. This article is nothing more than a unfair hit piece on the republican parties evangelical base. Shameful, but expected.
@JP
What?! "...this country cannot possibly bare another democratic administration." Let me remind you that this country, under George W. Bush, was losing jobs at the rate of 600,000/month when Obama took office. Under President Obama the country is gaining jobs at the rate of about 200,000/month. People like you have so few values that you don't even value arithmetic.
You have not explained what's unfair about this opinion. Some of us had already noticed the hypocrisy of Evangelicals as revealed by the U.S. Congressmen Mark Sanford, David Vitter, and John Ensign--all proclaiming family values then getting caught in tawdry sex scandals.
What?! "...this country cannot possibly bare another democratic administration." Let me remind you that this country, under George W. Bush, was losing jobs at the rate of 600,000/month when Obama took office. Under President Obama the country is gaining jobs at the rate of about 200,000/month. People like you have so few values that you don't even value arithmetic.
You have not explained what's unfair about this opinion. Some of us had already noticed the hypocrisy of Evangelicals as revealed by the U.S. Congressmen Mark Sanford, David Vitter, and John Ensign--all proclaiming family values then getting caught in tawdry sex scandals.
1
JP, I disagree with your conclusions in every case. However, it is nearly always useless to debate politics.
NOTICE: GRAMMAR POLICE ENFORCEMENT EFFORT: On the other hand, I can question the quality of your education, as evidenced by your many spelling errors. The country could possibly "bare" another Democratic administration if the country intends to take off all of the administration's clothing. The word you want is "bear" which means to carry the weight of something, and not Ursa hornbills. "The republican parties evangelical base" presumably means the Republican parties (that is, there is more than one Republican party here in the US); no, the Republican party's (singular party with appropriate possessive spelling of "y's") to indicate that the evangelical base belongs to the Republican party). It is reasonable to assume that the ungrammatical "a unfair" instead of "an affair" is a mere typo and not an error in usage. Sorry to be pedantic, but in the probable impossibility of convincing you of flaws in your political reasoning, a pedantic listing of your inattention to the real meaning of words and their spelling may clear away some fog, whether mine or yours.
NOTICE: GRAMMAR POLICE ENFORCEMENT EFFORT: On the other hand, I can question the quality of your education, as evidenced by your many spelling errors. The country could possibly "bare" another Democratic administration if the country intends to take off all of the administration's clothing. The word you want is "bear" which means to carry the weight of something, and not Ursa hornbills. "The republican parties evangelical base" presumably means the Republican parties (that is, there is more than one Republican party here in the US); no, the Republican party's (singular party with appropriate possessive spelling of "y's") to indicate that the evangelical base belongs to the Republican party). It is reasonable to assume that the ungrammatical "a unfair" instead of "an affair" is a mere typo and not an error in usage. Sorry to be pedantic, but in the probable impossibility of convincing you of flaws in your political reasoning, a pedantic listing of your inattention to the real meaning of words and their spelling may clear away some fog, whether mine or yours.
Wow!!!
" An unfair hit piece on the Republican party's base"
Reads with understanding F-.
JP try to pay attention! The writer of this piece is one of the leaders of the Republican Evangelical base. I am not a Democrat or a Republican but your inability to read or listen without understanding is what frightens the devil out of me, but what frightens me even more is that millions like you go out and vote. I do not question the right to vote but your comment brings to the fore your competence as an elector.
" An unfair hit piece on the Republican party's base"
Reads with understanding F-.
JP try to pay attention! The writer of this piece is one of the leaders of the Republican Evangelical base. I am not a Democrat or a Republican but your inability to read or listen without understanding is what frightens the devil out of me, but what frightens me even more is that millions like you go out and vote. I do not question the right to vote but your comment brings to the fore your competence as an elector.
1
Kim Davis has one up on Trump; she's been married 4 times -- but Evangelicans lionized her too. I guess "traditional family values," as defined by # of spouses, is not a very good litmus test of one's faith. And, it's not uncommon for mega priests (and those of smaller congregations too) to fleece their flocks with hands in the till or even to buy a private jet to "spread the word." (See John Oliver's take down on that topic.) I'm not a fan of Donald Trump but he does make a good mirror for hypocrisy.
31
Assuming that evangelicals actually believe in something is a stretch for me. These are people who believe what's convenient for their prejudices. "Sincerely held beliefs" are impossible to measure. That evangelicals have rushed to Trump only proves my point. There are a few truly religious people out there. Otherwise, it's more like picking sides.
11
"people who believe what's convenient for their prejudices". That is a generalization that is untrue. I was a social liberal for decades. Had no problems with gay people whatsoever and had no innate problem with same-sex marriage either. Then the Lord changed my heart and mind and I now accept that homosexuality is clearly labeled sin in the bible and the bible is God's Word. It is no more or less sin than fornication or stealing or the sin in me but it is sin. Not because of some natural prejudice I'd had but because God says it is so! You might believe I'm weak-minded. Believe what you will. But in my life and environs, there was absolutely nothing convenient about a regenerated heart and mind. Conversions shakes one to the core!
Most evangelicals supported Ronald Reagan, the first divorced president, who as governor of California in 1967 signed a law legalizing abortion, and whose second wife as First Lady regularly consulted astrologers. Those evangelical values were "lost" quite awhile ago.
41
The question in this piece's headline presumes that evangelicals had salutary values in the first place. I do not credit with "values" people who daily demonstrate, via religious ritual and self-delusion, the inability to be honest even with themselves.
34
I agree with Russell Moore that it is ironic to see some evangelicals express support for Donald Trump. Still, I am not surprised. I recall that evangelical Christians abandoned President Jimmy Carter, who sincerely shared their faith, and flocked to Ronald Reagan, who did not. Reagan could certainly talk the talk of social conservatism, but his Hollywood career and personal life did not exactly embody it.
283
How serious are conservatives about Christian values really? They casually propose bombing any number of countries, they have no interest in finding a way to provide health care to everyone, they blame poverty on the poor, and they proudly talk about implementing the death penalty.
Trump is a minor detail in the list of how far conservative voters are from Christian values.
Trump is a minor detail in the list of how far conservative voters are from Christian values.
533
While I am personally liberal and agnostic, I can empathize with Mr. Moore to an extent. And while I have no reason to doubt the author can by his social conservatism honestly, some so called "Social Conservatives" are simply xenophobic, homophobic, bigots who blame a whole litany of emancipatory social movements and other groups nominally allied to liberal causes for the gradual economic and social erosion experienced in rural, white, High School educated America over the last 3-4 decades. Liberals in comments sections like this one have long took pleasure (too much pleasure if you ask me) in pointing out the pretty glaring hypocrisy in the reddest areas of the U.S. also having the highest rates of divorce, drug and alcohol use, and other anti-social behaviors criticized by Social Conservatives, not to mention the fact that so many of these areas also are the biggest beneficiaries of the dole!!!!). I suppose I had always imagined that the brain-trust of conservative groups always knew this was true, but it was just a little dirty secret they kept under the rug. But perhaps they really didn’t take this to be true, and now are finding many of their less-heeled allies are more Archie Bunker then Billy Graham.
1
This author provides a simple, if unwitting, explanation for why modern-day religious fanatics support Trump.
Trump is American snake-oil politics and American snake-oil religion without the consultants, the sanctimony, the marketing specialists and the insufferable high moral tone on display here.
The "serious people" engaged in the selling of American snake-oil religion and snake-oil politics are horrified, because he reveals them for what they are -- pallid, untruthful versions of himself, with their preposterous out-sized ambitions and small and untruthful minds.
Trump is American snake-oil politics and American snake-oil religion without the consultants, the sanctimony, the marketing specialists and the insufferable high moral tone on display here.
The "serious people" engaged in the selling of American snake-oil religion and snake-oil politics are horrified, because he reveals them for what they are -- pallid, untruthful versions of himself, with their preposterous out-sized ambitions and small and untruthful minds.
1
Their support for Trump just shows that their commitment to values is different from what they claim. They are social conservatives, who want to return to a world in which people knew their place, and stayed in it. Leaving white men in charge, white women one step behind, and minorities unheard of. That is the world Donald Trump conjures with his claims that illegal immigrants and foreign competition are responsible for all our troubles. They hear exactly what he's saying, and like it.
6
Thi has been the GOP's own making. They've created this monster by creating a successful media soapbox (FOX news) which overly simplifies and even falsifies news. More notably -- and dangerously -- while not necessarily racist, they are very much #1 with racists. We can even see that in the early stages of the Tea Party when they depicted Obama in racist tones.
So now we have these demagogues who use populist language and offer overly simplistic solutions, namely more walls and wars. And while at it, we should withhold medical treatment (aka Affordable Healthcare Act) because there will always be the last resort of the emergency room -- as if that is less expensive.
We live in difficult times. I have a 15 year old son. I (we) do not need more wars managed by bullies dressed in suits. I need real long-lasting solutions for my son and indeed all of our children, both here and around this world.
So now we have these demagogues who use populist language and offer overly simplistic solutions, namely more walls and wars. And while at it, we should withhold medical treatment (aka Affordable Healthcare Act) because there will always be the last resort of the emergency room -- as if that is less expensive.
We live in difficult times. I have a 15 year old son. I (we) do not need more wars managed by bullies dressed in suits. I need real long-lasting solutions for my son and indeed all of our children, both here and around this world.
4
I am surprised to see the bewilderment of Paundits on Trump phenomena - it is nothing new, there are many historical events similar to this Trump following. One ancient teacher said - there are three type of students - 1. Students who understand exactly opposite to what teacher said, 2. students who do not understand anything, and 3. students who understand exactly what teacher said. 30% support of Trump comes from his acting skills not what he is or what he says.
1
What has happened to our two national political parties that has led us to this carnival/cafeteria food fight among these ambitious "independent contractors"? It seems that our parties political no longer function to discuss issues and vet the wisdom and character of nominees. It seems that a critical part of our our political system has all but disappeared.
The election is more than a year away! It seems this political "Reality TV" is distracting us from today's concerns as well as from what is (or is not) going on in Congress. The media shares a lot responsibility for this. It would seem that an independent and responsible media has also gone the way of our political parties. The "Fourth Estate" seems just as dysfunctional as the other three.
The election is more than a year away! It seems this political "Reality TV" is distracting us from today's concerns as well as from what is (or is not) going on in Congress. The media shares a lot responsibility for this. It would seem that an independent and responsible media has also gone the way of our political parties. The "Fourth Estate" seems just as dysfunctional as the other three.
1
The whole political process is a big joke. It is designed for an intellectually lazy public that is so obsessed with TV reality shows that it fails to recognize the realities of the real world that they live in. Candidates are being marketed as though they were soda or deodorants., in a continuously running campaign with no end, just so the media can make money by fanning the flames of controversy. Why should any one want to contribute to such a insane process that is dominated by the big donors anyway. Instead of one person,m one vote we have one dollar, one vote. Bernie Sander has the right message and delivers it with authenticity. What a contrast and a refreshing change.
2
I don't see Trump as a credible president, but this article is off target. Our values determine how we live our life. They need not dictate whom we support for president. They should be one factor in our decision and these values should be arranged in hierarchy based of importance to how they relate to being a good president. This hierarchy of values for evaluating a presidential candidate needn't, and I argue shouldn't, be the same as the way we order the importance of individual values in living our personal lives.
The number one requirement for the president is that his/her number one priority is doing what is best (obviously in the president's view) for Americans. The number two requirement is that the person actually have the intelligence, skills, and temperament to successfully do what is best for all of us. That means keeping us safe, keeping the economy in good shape, preparing the nation to prosper beyond the end of that person's term in office.
My view, differing from the evangelical approach, is that it is not the president's job to change the religious beliefs of citizens or to enact laws that force them to comply with the president's beliefs. I practice monogamy in my marriage, but don't require that a candidate do the same. Important, but not a key consideration in my vote.
It's like choosing a surgeon -- you want the most capable surgeon, and whether he cheats on his wife or holds unpleasant views is a lesser consideration.
The number one requirement for the president is that his/her number one priority is doing what is best (obviously in the president's view) for Americans. The number two requirement is that the person actually have the intelligence, skills, and temperament to successfully do what is best for all of us. That means keeping us safe, keeping the economy in good shape, preparing the nation to prosper beyond the end of that person's term in office.
My view, differing from the evangelical approach, is that it is not the president's job to change the religious beliefs of citizens or to enact laws that force them to comply with the president's beliefs. I practice monogamy in my marriage, but don't require that a candidate do the same. Important, but not a key consideration in my vote.
It's like choosing a surgeon -- you want the most capable surgeon, and whether he cheats on his wife or holds unpleasant views is a lesser consideration.
Someone needs to ask all the candidates one very simple question that must be answered with a simple "yes" or "no."
"Do you accept the general theory of evolution as articulated by Darwin. A simple yes or no."
America has a right to know whether the candidate agrees with science and reason or whether the candidate relies on ancient Scriptures for guidance. This one question will answer many other questions about any candidate. It is time to ask. Would the candidate be a person of science or a person of theology.
"Do you accept the general theory of evolution as articulated by Darwin. A simple yes or no."
America has a right to know whether the candidate agrees with science and reason or whether the candidate relies on ancient Scriptures for guidance. This one question will answer many other questions about any candidate. It is time to ask. Would the candidate be a person of science or a person of theology.
3
I think it is inexcusable for someone with firsthand experience of the "religious right" to interpret Trump's popularity among evangelicals in this way: the religious right has always involved a substantial contingent of people who are not "Christian" but rather what used to be called "Fascist," i.e., they worship raw, naked power, they believe that what is wrong with their "nation" is that there are people in it who are not like them, and they bow to the strong man with whom they feel they identify. This contingent identifies with Trump because he is white, he wants to make American white again, and he embodies raw, naked power (the fact that he is so obviously talentless and devoid of character only makes him seem more powerful, so powerful that without talent or character, he gets money and women).
Much of the problem is that evangelicals have shown that they are most comfortable preaching against sins that are either someone else's problem or so universal that we can all humbly repent in equal measure. They rarely if ever confront the darkness in their midst, the history of Fascism which permeates the entire history of evangelicalism in the U.S. The question you should be asking, Mr. Moore, is not, "Why do evangelicals support Trump?" but rather, "Why are so many Trump supporters evangelicals?" Why does the evangelical movement nurture so many Fascists? (To Richard Luettgen: The Nazis were illogical and temporary, not harmless or self-restrained.)
Much of the problem is that evangelicals have shown that they are most comfortable preaching against sins that are either someone else's problem or so universal that we can all humbly repent in equal measure. They rarely if ever confront the darkness in their midst, the history of Fascism which permeates the entire history of evangelicalism in the U.S. The question you should be asking, Mr. Moore, is not, "Why do evangelicals support Trump?" but rather, "Why are so many Trump supporters evangelicals?" Why does the evangelical movement nurture so many Fascists? (To Richard Luettgen: The Nazis were illogical and temporary, not harmless or self-restrained.)
5
Me and my family were members in good standing of a Southern Baptist church until November of 1968. That month we had just moved and were looking for another church. We attended one of the largest Baptist churches in the area just before the election in 1968. In over thirty years I had never heard politics discussed from the pulpit. Then the pastor got up and told the congregation that we had to vote for Richard M. Nixon. I almost threw up but had the decency to remain in my pew until he service was over. A great many of us left the Southern Baptists when the power structure began to engage in politics. That November Sunday was the last day I ever attended a Baptist church. I didn't leave the church- the church left me.
3
Since evangelical conservatives became allied with the Republican Party under Ronald Reagan, the conservatism has always managed to trump (forgive the pun) evangelicalism. That hasn't changed. Evangelicals are perfectly happy to let their politics set the moral tone for an election and leave the theology to someone else. I don't think this is what Jesus meant by being "wise as serpents and harmless as doves." Given the anger and verbal brutality to which evangelicals can succumb when taking part in political discussions on Internet boards, their conception of the fusion resembles more of a winged serpent than anything else.
3
The NYT propaganda machine shown in full force, as it attacks Trump from every direction it can, actually pretending it has the slightest interest or consideration of what the religious right thinks - a group it normally expends no insignificant amount of energy disparaging and denigrating.
The leftwing media, in this case managed and controlled by carlos slim who benefits from the mass illegals invasion through his mexican banking and telecom monopolies, is doing everything it can to try and derail the Trump candidacy, but it just does not understand that the public will not tolerate being lied to or manipulated any more. Trump will win in 2016, and the end of the illegal alien gravy train of voters for the democratic party and cheap labor for the corporate wing of the republican will finally end.
The leftwing media, in this case managed and controlled by carlos slim who benefits from the mass illegals invasion through his mexican banking and telecom monopolies, is doing everything it can to try and derail the Trump candidacy, but it just does not understand that the public will not tolerate being lied to or manipulated any more. Trump will win in 2016, and the end of the illegal alien gravy train of voters for the democratic party and cheap labor for the corporate wing of the republican will finally end.
The social conservatives are always wrong.
Throughout the history of our country, conservatives have always been on the wrong side of social issues: not occasionally, not often, but always. Any time that civil liberties or personal freedoms have been expanded or extended, it has always been the conservative elements of the country who stood in stark opposition. Any time that civil liberty or personal freedom has suffered a restriction or set back, it has always been by the pens of conservative legislators. Suffrage, interracial marriage, gender equality, gay rights, school integration, reproductive rights, and religious freedoms. The Conservative portions of our country have come together on court house steps with hateful signage and rallied against every single one of these things. Every new liberty has been attained only against the torrential flow of conservative public opinion.
Throughout the history of our country, conservatives have always been on the wrong side of social issues: not occasionally, not often, but always. Any time that civil liberties or personal freedoms have been expanded or extended, it has always been the conservative elements of the country who stood in stark opposition. Any time that civil liberty or personal freedom has suffered a restriction or set back, it has always been by the pens of conservative legislators. Suffrage, interracial marriage, gender equality, gay rights, school integration, reproductive rights, and religious freedoms. The Conservative portions of our country have come together on court house steps with hateful signage and rallied against every single one of these things. Every new liberty has been attained only against the torrential flow of conservative public opinion.
5
I am a practicing Catholic who was born into the Church.
I have also been a progressive Democrat for over 30 years.
I think Donald Trump is a loud mouthed blowhard full
of hot air and not much substance.
But I will vote for him if he wins the nomination because
I am so sick and tired of "political correctness" and trendiness
and the fallacy of major social questions being decided by
heavy handed and inappropriate judicial activism backed up
by spurious, unreliable and totally self serving "opinion polls"
to give special treatment to a small select group of "victims"
with a lot of money and political influence
that I could throw up and lose my lunch.
Mr Trump gets my vote because of all the candidates
both Republican and Democrat he is the most politically incorrect.
I have also been a progressive Democrat for over 30 years.
I think Donald Trump is a loud mouthed blowhard full
of hot air and not much substance.
But I will vote for him if he wins the nomination because
I am so sick and tired of "political correctness" and trendiness
and the fallacy of major social questions being decided by
heavy handed and inappropriate judicial activism backed up
by spurious, unreliable and totally self serving "opinion polls"
to give special treatment to a small select group of "victims"
with a lot of money and political influence
that I could throw up and lose my lunch.
Mr Trump gets my vote because of all the candidates
both Republican and Democrat he is the most politically incorrect.
1
William C. Plumpe: How may a POTUS act against judicial activism, especially on the SCOTUS? POTUS may nominate new justices, but cannot fire or chastise or mentor the existing crew. You've bought into Trump's model of imperial government.
@William C. Plumpe
You're not fooling anybody with your "I am a practicing Catholic who was born into the Church. I have also been a progressive Democrat for over 30 years." You are none of the above. "Political correctness" isn't causing pain or death for anyone, nor is it costing anyone the freedom of speech. People like you just think that racist and misogynist thought should be freely expressed without consequences.
You're not fooling anybody with your "I am a practicing Catholic who was born into the Church. I have also been a progressive Democrat for over 30 years." You are none of the above. "Political correctness" isn't causing pain or death for anyone, nor is it costing anyone the freedom of speech. People like you just think that racist and misogynist thought should be freely expressed without consequences.
1
Yes, the author is correct: The hypocrisy of social conservatives and evangelicals is one of the baffling pillars of Mr. Trump's support. Privately though, I think Trump is having a good laugh at their expense. The author makes some very good points about this hypocrisy -- that should have been made a long time ago. He fails to acknowledge that their twisted positions are not new news and that evangelical and social conservative leaders have failed time and time again to rein in their membership over their xenophobic, racist, war-on-the-poor, and other non Christ-like views and practices. These views and practices were the catalysts that helped to form the Tea Party, a group that has made outright racist statements, castigated government even though it pays for their healthcare and living expenses, and elected officials who consistently support policies that are inimical to their own interests. But I guess all of that bad behavior was OK so long as it was directed only at the president, people of color who need government assistance, and illegal immigrants of color. But it's too late now; Trump is the invited parasite that is now devouring its host. As someone once said, you can't keep snakes in your own backyard and expect them to bite only your neighbors.
10
It is no surprise social conservatives are supporting Trump. They haven't given in to the culture wars. Their war against women is alive and well even with Trump, despite his past support of Planned Parenthood or abortion. Moore even admits that Trump's view of women is Bronze Age.
What seems to be missing in the political discussions today among Republicans is that women constitute more than 50% of the electorate and most know who what sexism is and will vote against it, perhaps even, socially conservative women will act differently than one would predict once they are in the privacy of the polling booth.
As for Mr. Moore's Baptist ancestors supporting Jefferson's call for religious liberty, at the time of the American Revolution most colonies/states had an established church which everyone was taxed to support e.g. in Virginia and Massachusetts it was the Anglican one. I would suggest Baptists probably then believed less in religious liberty than in the fact, with the disestablishment of a state church, they could save on those taxes-- literally worshiping more "freely."
What seems to be missing in the political discussions today among Republicans is that women constitute more than 50% of the electorate and most know who what sexism is and will vote against it, perhaps even, socially conservative women will act differently than one would predict once they are in the privacy of the polling booth.
As for Mr. Moore's Baptist ancestors supporting Jefferson's call for religious liberty, at the time of the American Revolution most colonies/states had an established church which everyone was taxed to support e.g. in Virginia and Massachusetts it was the Anglican one. I would suggest Baptists probably then believed less in religious liberty than in the fact, with the disestablishment of a state church, they could save on those taxes-- literally worshiping more "freely."
3
Living among evangelicals, I've notice that they tend to love authoritarian leaders. They worship "strong" men, without taking a critical look at what these guys might really be up to. Their churches are always coming apart over abuses that anybody else could see a mile away, but they worship that pastor so much that they'll do crazy things and only later wonder why it ended so badly.
Their pastor/strong man will tell them how to vote, how to think, who to marry and how to live with them. The megachurch environment allows them to never run into anybody who thinks otherwise; many megachurches include daycare, a gym, auditoriums/theaters, meals and employment for quite a few churchgoers. They live in a mental and physical bubble, and demonize those who aren't inside it with them.
It's hard to escape the conclusion that evangelicals don't like democracy. While most of these denominations started out as valuing the individual's right to read and interpret the Bible, they've morphed into something completely different.
They may be nice neighbors, but their choices for political leadership are often pretty awful.
Their pastor/strong man will tell them how to vote, how to think, who to marry and how to live with them. The megachurch environment allows them to never run into anybody who thinks otherwise; many megachurches include daycare, a gym, auditoriums/theaters, meals and employment for quite a few churchgoers. They live in a mental and physical bubble, and demonize those who aren't inside it with them.
It's hard to escape the conclusion that evangelicals don't like democracy. While most of these denominations started out as valuing the individual's right to read and interpret the Bible, they've morphed into something completely different.
They may be nice neighbors, but their choices for political leadership are often pretty awful.
18
I am not sure Evangelicals are as principled as they think they are, and certainly their insistence for obsessive obedience of wives is not a far cry from Trump's so called Bronze Age warlord mentality. And let us not forget that Evangelism has no unique claim to morality over any other religious or irreligious perspective. Trump's moral virtues are no more or less impeachable than that of Russell Moore.
Both are hypocritical in their application, but Trump seems to be having more fun. So good for him, even if it is bad for the US...
Both are hypocritical in their application, but Trump seems to be having more fun. So good for him, even if it is bad for the US...
5
People have the capacity to empathize, feel what the people that they are observing are feeling, as well as to reason concerning what is being argued to them by other people. If they do not like the feelings, many people will reject both the feelings and the argument, even if the argument is convincing and reasonable. Trump's strategy is to respond to the attitudes and impressions of his audience, as his marketing skills and knowledge of his audience permits, which results in a strong feeling of being understood and appreciated by his audience. People's preference for what they feel over what they reason does the rest.
1
Trumps give and take reveal himself not to be above the fray, not a holier than thou rich man. I like him. I like the fact that he has known beautiful women, because it means he is not cowed by great beauty and recognizes that beneath that beauty lies a real person no bettor or worse than us because of it. Same for the rich.
He let Fiorina off easy on this last debate with her great wealth. He should have stuck to the ugly 'persona' because she gives off the air of a very hard and unforgiving woman. BTW Fiorinas claiming to double HP revenue, was essentially a lie that Trump called her on. It was caused by an acquisition that almost bankrupted the company.
The take home was that Trump said he has good judgement and that he will hire the best experts and use his judgement given their advice wisely.
He seems to be learning. I am a Democrat who supports him, my big hesitancy would be in voting in a Republican whose merciless party is run by plutocrats. But Democrats to, have become anathema to me.
The bible is very much about recognizing how we are all sinners, but doing the best we can in spite of that. Go Donald!
He let Fiorina off easy on this last debate with her great wealth. He should have stuck to the ugly 'persona' because she gives off the air of a very hard and unforgiving woman. BTW Fiorinas claiming to double HP revenue, was essentially a lie that Trump called her on. It was caused by an acquisition that almost bankrupted the company.
The take home was that Trump said he has good judgement and that he will hire the best experts and use his judgement given their advice wisely.
He seems to be learning. I am a Democrat who supports him, my big hesitancy would be in voting in a Republican whose merciless party is run by plutocrats. But Democrats to, have become anathema to me.
The bible is very much about recognizing how we are all sinners, but doing the best we can in spite of that. Go Donald!
11
It is a difference between "we are all sinners" with Donald ,who is proud to be committing these sins.
Fiorina gives off the air of a "very hard and unforgiving woman" but Trump is an approachable, kind, forgiving teddy bear of a man? One who hasn't bankrupted numerous companies and put hundreds and thousands of people out of work?
You are seeing what you want to see, colored by misogyny and envy of materialism. Trump is not above the fray - he just says whatever the person in front of him wants to hear, whatever will get a rise and heedless of the destruction left in the wake of his avarice and lack of basic human decency.
You are seeing what you want to see, colored by misogyny and envy of materialism. Trump is not above the fray - he just says whatever the person in front of him wants to hear, whatever will get a rise and heedless of the destruction left in the wake of his avarice and lack of basic human decency.
1
You've got to be kidding. You like him because he's known beautiful women? Apparently he's not too interested in what's inside, because as soon as their beauty fades a bit, he's gone.
Voting for any Republican means voting for an even more extremist Supreme Court. Actually, The Donald may be the only Republican candidate who might not appoint another Scalia or Alito.
Voting for any Republican means voting for an even more extremist Supreme Court. Actually, The Donald may be the only Republican candidate who might not appoint another Scalia or Alito.
3
"Most illogical is his support from evangelicals and other social conservatives."
For many of us on the outside of evangelicalism, we've seen the inconsistencies for years as Christianity has become more of a reason to hate others than to love others. To us, Trump is the logical conclusion of such religion.
For many of us on the outside of evangelicalism, we've seen the inconsistencies for years as Christianity has become more of a reason to hate others than to love others. To us, Trump is the logical conclusion of such religion.
21
If evangelicals were good at critical thinking, they wouldn't embrace, as they seem to do, a literalist interpretation of the Bible, a book demonstrably cobbled together from pre-existing creation myths and nonsensical interdictions. So is it any surprise their embrace of The Donald displays a similar absence of critical thinking? Trump's appeal is not to reason, but to emotions, and base ones at that: anger, resentment and xenophobia. The country is going to hell in a politically correct hand basket and it's all the fault of 'people not like us.'
9
When they call Jesus "Lord", they reveal their true desire: to live under feudalism ruled by an ostensibly benevolent tyrant. Who can play that role better than Donald Trump?
1
The bigger question is have Right Wing Supply Side voting Evangelicals ever had Christian values. How can people who denigrate the poor and allow children to starve say they have Christian values. How can people who begrudge workers a livable wage because they don't have a "good enough" job leaving them to suffer in poverty have Christian values. Those that worship in mega churches and support leaders who preach about money for God while living in luxury off the donations of the old and poor have Christian values. Those who criticize the poor (nee Blacks) for their lack of values while their own children kill people in drunken collisions, kill animals horribly, and have children out of wedlock have Christian values. How can people who follow the Prosperity Doctrine have Christian values. None of these follow Christ. The natural progression of those that follow the Prosperity Doctrine is the worshiping of figure like Trump. He is good because he is rich. He has money so he is favored by God. Of course they would follow him right down into hell but not before making hell on earth. The anti-Christ is here and he is us.
4
American Evangelism is embodied by the megachurch--with hundreds of garish flatscreens broadcasting the word to devotees, and a Starbucks built right into the lobby. Many evangelical pastors are slick, capped-teeth specialists in magical thinking, who spread a "prosperity gospel" to their flock--a message that emphasizes, over and above anything else, the difference between those who deserve their wealth, and the losers who will never get any. And there have been xenophobic flares from the evangelicals about the creep of Sharia law into American institutions; which is, of course, a perfect example of projection.
Trump is the prophet they've been waiting for.
Trump is the prophet they've been waiting for.
5
Very strange to hear a southern Evangelical leader complaining about Trump's undermining racial reconciliation. Southern Evangelicals were at the barricades waving their Bibles along with their whips and their burning crosses. They have never apologized to the Black community they were so intent on enslaving, denying votes to, and forcing to the back of the bus. These same Evangelicals are at the core of vicious racist lies about Obama's birth certificate and religion. As well, the Evangelicals are the leading demonizers of gays and seekers of the denial of Constitutional rights to those gays. Their leaders have a hell of a nerve complaining about Trump.
8
Actually the Southern Baptists did officially apologize for slavery and racism numerous times, beginning in 1995. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112329862
1
"They have never apologized to the Black community they were so intent on enslaving, denying votes to, and forcing to the back of the bus."
Actually, yes, they have.
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/899/resolution-on-racial-reconciliation-o...
Actually, yes, they have.
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/899/resolution-on-racial-reconciliation-o...
1
I have about all I can stand of evangelical values.
7
There are such things as "public values" and "private values." Many people, but especially those whose identification with what can be called "the religious right" including self-professed evangelicals such as that clerk in Kentucky. make a great show of their public values. The reality is that despite such professed religiosity that such people use their religiosity as a shield for their private racist, misogynist, xenophobic, and homophobic beliefs. Donald Trump has provided people with a platform and a justification to demonstrate what they really think. No, it's not pretty but it's real and the sooner the rest of us recognize what is going on, the more informed we will all be.
4
Mr. Trump satisfies evangelical values completely!
He idolizes the Bible even though he doesn't carry one for show and hasn't read it. He denounces social responsibility, the primary theme of the Bible, as a socialist ploy. He opposes women’s right to manage their reproductive behavior and opposes homosexuals' right to marry, even though neither topic is mentioned in the Bible.
What more could a "social conservative" demand of a candidate for the office of President?
He idolizes the Bible even though he doesn't carry one for show and hasn't read it. He denounces social responsibility, the primary theme of the Bible, as a socialist ploy. He opposes women’s right to manage their reproductive behavior and opposes homosexuals' right to marry, even though neither topic is mentioned in the Bible.
What more could a "social conservative" demand of a candidate for the office of President?
2
Trump's candidacy has been a chickens-coming-home-to-roost moment for much of the Republican establishment. In particular, he's revealed the key motivating force for the base: tribalism. And the evangelical movement itself has always been more about the tribe than morals: just look at the origins of the Southern Baptist Convention. Today, still replacing "good works" with repentance + salvation by faith alone as get out of hell free card, members have sky high divorce and remarriage rates. So now you're surprised that the ultimate tribal demagogue turns out to be so attractive? I'm not.
4
You say that "To back Mr. Trump, these voters must repudiate everything they believe."
Their support for Trump is, to me, unsurprising, because I don't think they believe what they profess to believe. They spend a lot of time talking about believing, but how many of them love their neighbors as themselves, or turn the other cheek?
On the other hand, the atheists I know show more compassion and kindness towards others, and are much closer to living according to Christian teachings, than anyone who would ever support Donald Trump.
Their support for Trump is, to me, unsurprising, because I don't think they believe what they profess to believe. They spend a lot of time talking about believing, but how many of them love their neighbors as themselves, or turn the other cheek?
On the other hand, the atheists I know show more compassion and kindness towards others, and are much closer to living according to Christian teachings, than anyone who would ever support Donald Trump.
6
It's hard for me to understand why Russell Moore is surprised. After all, the defining characteristic of fundamentalists of any religion is that their faith dictates their belief system. They will reject logic and the evidence of their own senses if they deem it at odds with their faith. They will reject reality itself if it seems to contradict their faith. Expecting logical consistency from a fundamentalist is like expecting blood to be squeezed from a turnip. The fact that Donald Trump's espoused values are at complete odds with his lived values is a minor discrepancy to a True Believer.
Except that these guys are also rejecting the basic tenet of their faith:
"Love one another as you love yourself."
"Forgive them, for they know not what they do."
"As long as you do this to these, the least of my brethren, you do this to me."
That is the real message of Jesus.
But Jesus hasn't been the face of American conservative Christianity for many long years. John Calvin has.
"Love one another as you love yourself."
"Forgive them, for they know not what they do."
"As long as you do this to these, the least of my brethren, you do this to me."
That is the real message of Jesus.
But Jesus hasn't been the face of American conservative Christianity for many long years. John Calvin has.
1
My answer would be, "Yes."
1
Russell Moore claims Trump's view of women is from the Bronze Age. He must be referring to the Old Testament, where the Baptists get their view on how to treat women. He's the expert.
5
If Trump can help the nation actually to recognize the nonsense that is religion by callously and slyly mocking its nonsensical features (belief in supernatural forces, "following" ancient dictators and books, reliance on "faith" rather than on evidence and clear reasoning), then that will be the one good thing Trump has done (or is likely to do) for this country.
4
Mr. Moore seems to have an extremely romanticized concept of Evangelical voters in this country: that they actually vote with a conscience informed by the teachings of Jesus. This is an utter fallacy. So-called Evangelical voters toe the Republican Party line on virtually every stance, resulting in a platform that is painfully at odds with the message of Christ - take from the poor, give to the rich, discriminate against minorities, fight constant wars, deny healthcare to millions, support capital punishment, and destroy the environment. Yes, clearly a platform taken from Matthew's Gospel. The irony is so severe it would be comical if it wasn't doing so much irreversible damage to this country.
Mr. Moore needs to do some real soul-searching with his constituents. Have these voters lost their values, or were their values never actually in line with the teachings of Christ? Has holding up a Bible and labeling oneself an 'Evangelical' become a carte blanche to support the most greedy, xenophobic ideas in politics today? Ponder these questions and suddenly the support for Trump will no longer surprise you, much like it no longer surprises me.
Mr. Moore needs to do some real soul-searching with his constituents. Have these voters lost their values, or were their values never actually in line with the teachings of Christ? Has holding up a Bible and labeling oneself an 'Evangelical' become a carte blanche to support the most greedy, xenophobic ideas in politics today? Ponder these questions and suddenly the support for Trump will no longer surprise you, much like it no longer surprises me.
42
Puts the lie to it all, doesn't it?
4
Mr. Moore's mistake is in assuming that American religious conservatives ever really held Christian values.
8
For many religious conservatives, there seems to be a huge disconnect between their religion's teachings and their own words and actions. It's hard to understand why this isn't obvious to them or how they can justify their interpretation of the teachings. Perhaps they believe that the end justifies the means regardless of the cost or perhaps they believe that a commitment to God can be made without living in the spirit of God's commandments. The latter is not confined to the religious conservatives of the US by any means.
9
Quite a difference between DT and Bernie, eh? Bernie goes to an evangelical college and says the same thing that he says everywhere else and the same thing that he's been saying for decades. He points out the importance, in Christianity, of caring for "the least of these". And he says that there are things, for example abortion and birth control, on which he clearly differs from his audience at Liberty University, he doesn't apologize for this, he states it as a fact, and then goes on to point out areas in which they might agree.
That evangelicals can fall in love with DT certainly boggles the mind.
That evangelicals can fall in love with DT certainly boggles the mind.
9
Donald Trump is not running for Pope, he's running for President. There is no religious litmus test, even for evangelicals. As believers, we adhere to values derived from the Bible. As citizens, we look for leaders that will work for the vision of what America has been and can be. The more a candidate's vision overlaps with our moral ideas, the better. However, these are not mutually exclusive spheres. Very few past Presidents, many of whom have done great things, measure up to the moral code that evangelicals try to adhere to in their personal lives. Donald Trump would probably be in the middle of the moral spectrum of that company.
10
There have been only two men who served as President who have espoused and lived deeply Christian lives: Barrack Hussein Obama and James Earl Carter.
5
"There is no religious litmus test, even for evangelicals"
Yet, JFK had to convince a roomful of baptists that he was not going to let the pope run the country - funny, because JFK was Catholic in name only, not in actions. Many "born-agains" also don't recognize Catholics as being Christians.
"As believers, we adhere to values derived from the Bible" - yeah, we kind of know that already considering you guys talk about it all the time; many non-evangelicals religious (Christians and Jews) and non-religious also derive their values from the bible, just more quietly and humbly, as well as many who have common values from non-biblical religions, while some evangelicals talk but don't do the walk, relying more on fear and hate than love.
Yet, JFK had to convince a roomful of baptists that he was not going to let the pope run the country - funny, because JFK was Catholic in name only, not in actions. Many "born-agains" also don't recognize Catholics as being Christians.
"As believers, we adhere to values derived from the Bible" - yeah, we kind of know that already considering you guys talk about it all the time; many non-evangelicals religious (Christians and Jews) and non-religious also derive their values from the bible, just more quietly and humbly, as well as many who have common values from non-biblical religions, while some evangelicals talk but don't do the walk, relying more on fear and hate than love.
4
As believers, you adhere to what you choose to cherry-pick out of an ancient text. Let us not be unclear on that point. It is why every single person who claims to live by biblical values can choose any of the candidates and feel that God's backing him/her up.
1
It's a pity that the word Evangelical is used to describe people who are sometimes/often divisive and are willing to shove their beliefs down my throat. All Christians are called to be evangelical: "Going, therefore, teach ye all nations..." Teach. Not oppress! I have extensive experience of the evangelicals of Northern Ireland.
There are many good reasons to criticize Trump and to wonder at the inability of so many of his supporters to recognize snake oil and even his ignorance of the US constitution. But it really is sectarian to make his attitude to Southern Baptists the main criterion.
What are "traditional family values?" On what timescale? The timeline that forbade votes to women? The time that accepted, and fought and died, for slavery? Of course "family values" is a code term, not even a dog whistle since we can all hear it.
There are many good reasons to criticize Trump and to wonder at the inability of so many of his supporters to recognize snake oil and even his ignorance of the US constitution. But it really is sectarian to make his attitude to Southern Baptists the main criterion.
What are "traditional family values?" On what timescale? The timeline that forbade votes to women? The time that accepted, and fought and died, for slavery? Of course "family values" is a code term, not even a dog whistle since we can all hear it.
Trump is a buffoon, and Dr. Carson seems to back off any stance quickly. (He backed off friggin' vaccinations last night, for Pete's sake! What about the Hippocratic oath? Shocking.)
Although Sanders is pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, his beliefs are far more "moral" than anyone running as a GOP candidate.
Although Sanders is pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, his beliefs are far more "moral" than anyone running as a GOP candidate.
2
Haven't we always known that most of these holier than though "evangelicals" are utter hypocrites? They're precisely the kind of people Jesus railed against.
4
I empathize with Mr. Moore's discomfort over the reaction of evangelicals to Trump's candidacy. It speaks well for his own deep sense of Christian morality.
Having said that, I also think his lament comes a little late. Evangelicals have, for many years, confused their religious values with their political and social beliefs. I once endured a sermon in which a minister tried mightily to use Scripture to prove that God wanted the U.S. to have a strong national defense. Religious people, like everyone else, develop preferences for government policies on many issues. This is perfectly appropriate.
The problem arises when they claim divine sanction for their political views. A relative of mine once asserted that a liberal could not be a Christian, a variation on the theme that God is a Republican. Trump's agreement with the religious right on social and economic issues will play the key role in determining the attitude of many evangelicals.
For, once religious leaders like Jerry Falwell had decided God was a social and economic conservative, he and many other evangelicals gradually relegated the personal qualities of candidates to the background. After all, the religious right enthusiastically embraced Ronald Reagan, a man whose view of Christianity probably mirrored that of Trump.
Politics forces people to set priorities, and Mr. Moore dislikes the choices many of his co-religionaries have made. That's democracy for you.
Having said that, I also think his lament comes a little late. Evangelicals have, for many years, confused their religious values with their political and social beliefs. I once endured a sermon in which a minister tried mightily to use Scripture to prove that God wanted the U.S. to have a strong national defense. Religious people, like everyone else, develop preferences for government policies on many issues. This is perfectly appropriate.
The problem arises when they claim divine sanction for their political views. A relative of mine once asserted that a liberal could not be a Christian, a variation on the theme that God is a Republican. Trump's agreement with the religious right on social and economic issues will play the key role in determining the attitude of many evangelicals.
For, once religious leaders like Jerry Falwell had decided God was a social and economic conservative, he and many other evangelicals gradually relegated the personal qualities of candidates to the background. After all, the religious right enthusiastically embraced Ronald Reagan, a man whose view of Christianity probably mirrored that of Trump.
Politics forces people to set priorities, and Mr. Moore dislikes the choices many of his co-religionaries have made. That's democracy for you.
7
Reagan's one divorce didn't seem to bother evangelicals or conservatives, why should Trump's two? Maybe they see themselves as progressives? BTW, I toured the Reagan library a while back and they conveniently failed to mention his first marriage or how his first son came to be.
7
Mr. Moore, here's a newsflash: evangelical "Christians" do not have moral values, at least those of us who try to walk in Christ's footsteps. He loved the poor, the rejected, "the other." Donald Trump worships at the shrine of Mammon, and most of your followers despise the very ones whom Christ most loved. Your followers do not preach or persuade; they screech and shrill. Your Bibles are all cover and no substance. Your movement has not reached out to the marginalized; rather, it has reached out to draw tighter around them the suffocating garments of exclusion, of privilege, of rejection, of phony concern for the daughters of Eve, whom your rank and file disparage without ceasing, goaded by your leaders. So, to what values do your evangelical "Christians" hold dearly if not the rejection of others? They swell Candidate Trump's appearances and mimic his divisive rhetoric. Where is Christ in all of this?
21
soxared, venture into the downtrodden inner city of any major metropolitan area & tell me which groups, more than any other, are there with rolled-up sleeves. Here's a hint: you mention them in your post. Several times.
The Republican party bases its politics on giving the wealthy more power over the poor. It bases its poiltical appeal on the demonization of the less fortunate and the moralistic condemnation of others. It has supported torture, the death penalty, unnecessary wars and the proliferation of firearms in civilian society. Tactically, it regularly uses the hoaxes and lies manufactured by its media arm. Its "evangelical" supporters never had any Christian values to lose.
12
I am not a Christian and I find this article bizarre.
When divorced Ronald Reagan appealed to the evangelical Christian vote, his divorce was not an issue. Likewise divorced cheater Newt Gingrich. Why treat Trump differently than the idol and the intellect of the right? Clinton's adultery was an issue because Clinton didn't agree that when Jesus said, "Render under Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's" Jesus meant that everything belongs to God, nothing to Caesar, and taxes were theft.
You cite Ben Carson favorably. Yet Carson picks to follow the biblical 'flat tax' without the biblical Jubilee Year. Are you ready to embrace the Jubilee Year and redistribute America's wealth evenly? Or is a Jubilee or tithe that redistributes outside of your faith community theft?
The right wing worships the rich as 'worthy' and 'productive' no matter how they made (or inherited) their fortunes. Why get so twisted about a casino magnate and real estate developer when you have no problem with war profiteers manufacturing an excuse for torture and war. Cheney is OK, but Trump, who is killing nobody, is not. Granted, most of the people killed in a war were already born, so I suppose they are of no moral interest. But surely some of the dead were pregnant women, whose unborn died, too.
You might want to check that plank in your eye.
When divorced Ronald Reagan appealed to the evangelical Christian vote, his divorce was not an issue. Likewise divorced cheater Newt Gingrich. Why treat Trump differently than the idol and the intellect of the right? Clinton's adultery was an issue because Clinton didn't agree that when Jesus said, "Render under Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's" Jesus meant that everything belongs to God, nothing to Caesar, and taxes were theft.
You cite Ben Carson favorably. Yet Carson picks to follow the biblical 'flat tax' without the biblical Jubilee Year. Are you ready to embrace the Jubilee Year and redistribute America's wealth evenly? Or is a Jubilee or tithe that redistributes outside of your faith community theft?
The right wing worships the rich as 'worthy' and 'productive' no matter how they made (or inherited) their fortunes. Why get so twisted about a casino magnate and real estate developer when you have no problem with war profiteers manufacturing an excuse for torture and war. Cheney is OK, but Trump, who is killing nobody, is not. Granted, most of the people killed in a war were already born, so I suppose they are of no moral interest. But surely some of the dead were pregnant women, whose unborn died, too.
You might want to check that plank in your eye.
294
"When Jesus said, 'Render under Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's' Jesus meant that everything belongs to God, nothing to Caesar, and taxes were theft."
What a perverse interpretation. The money had Caesar's image on it, and the "faith" we place in money is guaranteed by the state that issues it. Jesus was contrasting materialism and the necessity of government with the true and eternal realm of the soul.
Jews who were Roman citizens were given exemptions not to participate in the annual religious ceremonies that affirmed loyalty to the emperor. A monetary tribute was substituted for animal sacrifice, and Jews were allowed to pray to their single deity for the wellbeing of the emperor, instead of participating in the "supplicatio" to many gods that was part of Roman ethnic religion. Jesus, as a Jew, may have been thinking of those accommodations. The wars between Jews and Romans were political; antisemitism in Roman literature begins after what they saw as a radical strain of Judaism that became Christianity.
Christians didn't want accommodation. They want to impose their religion on everybody else. See Kim Davis, who wants to keep her $83,000/yr from Caesar while enacting Christian shariah.
Jesus walked on Roman roads, drank water delivered by Roman aqueducts, and probably would've laughed along with anybody else at the classic "What did the Romans ever do for us?" scene in "Life of Brian."
But true, he was bit of a deadbeat socialist.
What a perverse interpretation. The money had Caesar's image on it, and the "faith" we place in money is guaranteed by the state that issues it. Jesus was contrasting materialism and the necessity of government with the true and eternal realm of the soul.
Jews who were Roman citizens were given exemptions not to participate in the annual religious ceremonies that affirmed loyalty to the emperor. A monetary tribute was substituted for animal sacrifice, and Jews were allowed to pray to their single deity for the wellbeing of the emperor, instead of participating in the "supplicatio" to many gods that was part of Roman ethnic religion. Jesus, as a Jew, may have been thinking of those accommodations. The wars between Jews and Romans were political; antisemitism in Roman literature begins after what they saw as a radical strain of Judaism that became Christianity.
Christians didn't want accommodation. They want to impose their religion on everybody else. See Kim Davis, who wants to keep her $83,000/yr from Caesar while enacting Christian shariah.
Jesus walked on Roman roads, drank water delivered by Roman aqueducts, and probably would've laughed along with anybody else at the classic "What did the Romans ever do for us?" scene in "Life of Brian."
But true, he was bit of a deadbeat socialist.
1
" 'Render under Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's' Jesus meant that everything belongs to God, nothing to Caesar, and taxes were theft. " You need to go back to Sunday school. Jesus was asked if people should pay taxes to the Roman Empire. Jesus asked to see a coin and then asked who's picture was on the coin. When he was told it was Caesar's picture, then he said to give to Caesar what belongs to him and give to God what belongs to God. God gave us our hearts and souls - that belongs to God. All else is irrelevant, just dust. Pay your taxes and pray to God.
1
Tsk, tsk! Trump splatters platitudes that any pimply adolescent might produce on a wet week-end. We may laugh at that, but thousands believe his imperial model of government, Russell Moore represents whom?
Russell Moore's article seems part and parcel of the efforts by the Club for Growth and the GOP's puppeteers to destroy Trump's campaign.
Trump is the one GOP marionette that the GOP puppeteers cannot manipulate, and this is what makes him attractive to the hoi polloi of the Republican Party.
Trump is the one GOP marionette that the GOP puppeteers cannot manipulate, and this is what makes him attractive to the hoi polloi of the Republican Party.
8
Trump support is not a contradiction of evangelical values.
Supporting the Republican Party for the last 30 or 40 years is a complete contradiction of Christianity.
Christians are supposed to embrace the poor and have deep compassion for the less fortunate.
Republicanism has rich record of economic and policy violence against the poor, the disadvantaged and minorities.
Republicans fight to abolish universal healthcare; they withhold Medicare from the working poor in the states they govern --- is there a finer act of 'unChristianity' in modern America ?
Republicans fight to limit and eliminate the minimum wage while championing the sanctity of America's psychopathic 350:1 CEO:worker pay ratio; you can't get much economically violent than that.
Republicans want to abolish the EPA and eviscerate environmental regulation, but the Bible says that Christians should 'steward the Earth' which they say is God's creation.
Republicans champion the formal death penalty and the informal death penalty known as the 2nd Amendment on fatal steroids that have turned America into a fatal shooting gallery.
There's nothing particularly Christian about Republicanism, unless of course one includes hypocrisy, cognitive dissonance and denialism as core values.
On balance, the Democratic Party is the American political party that shares values with Christianity.
Evangelicals and Christians should wake up and vote Democratic.
Supporting the Republican Party for the last 30 or 40 years is a complete contradiction of Christianity.
Christians are supposed to embrace the poor and have deep compassion for the less fortunate.
Republicanism has rich record of economic and policy violence against the poor, the disadvantaged and minorities.
Republicans fight to abolish universal healthcare; they withhold Medicare from the working poor in the states they govern --- is there a finer act of 'unChristianity' in modern America ?
Republicans fight to limit and eliminate the minimum wage while championing the sanctity of America's psychopathic 350:1 CEO:worker pay ratio; you can't get much economically violent than that.
Republicans want to abolish the EPA and eviscerate environmental regulation, but the Bible says that Christians should 'steward the Earth' which they say is God's creation.
Republicans champion the formal death penalty and the informal death penalty known as the 2nd Amendment on fatal steroids that have turned America into a fatal shooting gallery.
There's nothing particularly Christian about Republicanism, unless of course one includes hypocrisy, cognitive dissonance and denialism as core values.
On balance, the Democratic Party is the American political party that shares values with Christianity.
Evangelicals and Christians should wake up and vote Democratic.
187
And of course, Republicans have waged war on false pretenses, and at an immense cost in human suffering.
3
Exactly, Donald is the face of Republican Evangelism.
3
"Evangelicals and Christians should wake up and vote Democratic."
I'm sure you're 3rd to last paragraph has them stumbling over each other to register as Democrats.
I'm sure you're 3rd to last paragraph has them stumbling over each other to register as Democrats.
2
"He has divorced two wives (so far) for other women."
I assume you lent no support to Kim Davis as she is a divorced woman.
https://erlc.com/article/need-we-jail-each-other-over-marriage-licenses
Whoops.
Perhaps you should be less worried about what hypocrisies might arise out of your cult members supporting Trump and more worried about the hypocrisies you and your cult members are already committing.
I assume you lent no support to Kim Davis as she is a divorced woman.
https://erlc.com/article/need-we-jail-each-other-over-marriage-licenses
Whoops.
Perhaps you should be less worried about what hypocrisies might arise out of your cult members supporting Trump and more worried about the hypocrisies you and your cult members are already committing.
16
Social conservatives supported Reagan wholeheartedly over Carter. Reagan never lived like a Christian but he manipulated them into supporting him & his policies & they continue to do so decades later. Then they mocked Carter, the only President to actually live his Christian values both in & out of office. Social conservatives & their bigoted, exclusionary policies have hurt countless citizens. It doesn't surprise me at all that they support Trump.
54
I'm glad you mentioned that. Because the current President, Barack Obama, came to his Christianity of his own free will. Then I couldn't believe that the famous preacher Billy Graham and his son Franklin Graham supported and endorsed Mitt Romney in the 2012 election. I know why, the President is black. Simple as that. The religious right is a bunch of hypocrites.
1
Sheeple want to be led.
Elmer Gantry, Joseph Smith, Jim and Tammy Faye, Swaggart, Falwell, hustler Ralph Reed, now Trump.
It's always the same con, just different outfits on the clown.
Elmer Gantry, Joseph Smith, Jim and Tammy Faye, Swaggart, Falwell, hustler Ralph Reed, now Trump.
It's always the same con, just different outfits on the clown.
296
Bullies love bullies. Authoritarianism, as the boss or submissive, has always ranked higher than the values of Christ in American evangelicalism. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
98
This would be worth a read for evangelical Christians:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/comments/3l4khz/transcript_...
(There's an audio version of this making the rounds as well)
It's saying what I've believed for years: Christianity demands a strong welfare state and a consistent effort to support the poor and downtrodden with no questions or conditions. That's exactly what the Good Samaritan did, and that's exactly what is meant by "Love thy neighbor as thyself".
https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/comments/3l4khz/transcript_...
(There's an audio version of this making the rounds as well)
It's saying what I've believed for years: Christianity demands a strong welfare state and a consistent effort to support the poor and downtrodden with no questions or conditions. That's exactly what the Good Samaritan did, and that's exactly what is meant by "Love thy neighbor as thyself".
31
Inasmuch as the Mexicans, according to Donald Trump (and the rest of those miserable candidates by the way), are thieves, rapists, and whatever else comes into their heads, I doubt if we'll be hearing the parable of the Good Mexican" any time soon.
The people who support Donald Trump and Evangelicals actually have a lot in common. Neither are in danger of being accused of being heavy thinkers.
153
What values and which evangelicals?
With these in my family and my experience, I can tell you that a large part of the personal motivation to be an evangelical is to enjoy a surety about questions that the rest of us think about, and to assure others in their lives that they are good, conforming members of their community.
Donald Trump contradicts none of these things. Surety in his own rightness is his most distinguishing trait, actually.
Oh - you mean the values taught in the Bible especially the New Testament? Well, um ... go back to my first paragraph.
With these in my family and my experience, I can tell you that a large part of the personal motivation to be an evangelical is to enjoy a surety about questions that the rest of us think about, and to assure others in their lives that they are good, conforming members of their community.
Donald Trump contradicts none of these things. Surety in his own rightness is his most distinguishing trait, actually.
Oh - you mean the values taught in the Bible especially the New Testament? Well, um ... go back to my first paragraph.
59
As an Evangelical Christian, a Deacon and Bible teacher, I have to say that this article is right on the mark. Trump is obviously self-centered, not Christ centered. If he were Christ centered, he would not be boasting about all that he as accomplished, how much money he has personally made and boasting about how great he is. He certainly would not be ridiculing other people. Instead he would be talking, in all humility. about how God has blessed him and how God has helped him to use his natural talents to make money so that he could minister to less fortunate people. While disagreement is expected in a political setting, it should be done in a respectable and honest manner and Trump does just the opposite. I believe that all the attention that Trump is getting is not the result of him personally but, rather,he has become the symbol of change which so many people are looking for.
142
This is very difficult to understand. You seem to be saying that instead of boasting about all the money he "earned" by investing in the casino business, bribing public officials (his own testimony) and cheating his creditors, Trump should be quietly thanking God -- but for what? Helping him cheat and defraud other people, including the American tax payers who have subsidized so many of his ventures?
What kind of God helps people get rich this way, and who could possibly worship such a being?
Perhaps it's this incoherence which allows so many self-described Evangelicals to support Trump.
What kind of God helps people get rich this way, and who could possibly worship such a being?
Perhaps it's this incoherence which allows so many self-described Evangelicals to support Trump.
5
None of these candidates are "Christ-centered." The entire Republican Party is not "Christ-centered." If they were, they'd be espousing a "love thy neighbor," philosophy instead of insular, "them vs. us," "make the poor suffer even more" policies.
Anyone who dares to call himself a Christian ought to follow Christ's teachings, and I don't see anyone in the GOP doing that, including Republican voters, evangelical or otherwise.
Anyone who dares to call himself a Christian ought to follow Christ's teachings, and I don't see anyone in the GOP doing that, including Republican voters, evangelical or otherwise.
3
Yes Trump is a loud mouth but was there one republican that was on that stage last night who did not support Mr. Trump or move even further into lunacy in their efforts to win ...um - the evangelical vote?
3
The Southern Baptist Convention should have known all along that in its support for the Republican Party it was dancing with the devil. It should have known all along that the Republican Party stood for a form of rapacious individualistic economic greed that knows no morals, no standards, and no liberties except the liberty of some people to make money and the expense of others. It should have known this. Instead, it followed the hate-baiting of Republican demagogues. And now a leader of the Convention starts to complain? It took Donald Trump to get him to see the Republicans are a party of amorality? At least Trump isn't a hypocrite.
And please, would you stop pretending that opposing Planned Parenthood is the high road to heaven? And would you please stop embracing the idea that culture in America is a 'war'? Why don't you stop fighting and really start loving again? The Democratic Party would be happy to welcome you home.
And please, would you stop pretending that opposing Planned Parenthood is the high road to heaven? And would you please stop embracing the idea that culture in America is a 'war'? Why don't you stop fighting and really start loving again? The Democratic Party would be happy to welcome you home.
196
Let me guess. Someone like Huckabee is more to the liking of Russell Moore, right?
The religious right has to have the issues always be whatever THEY say they are in order to be legitimate issues. Same hymn, stanza 3.
The religious right has to have the issues always be whatever THEY say they are in order to be legitimate issues. Same hymn, stanza 3.
17
"The religious right has to have the issues always be whatever THEY say they are in order to be legitimate issues."
And no other groups do this, right?
And no other groups do this, right?
Who gives a rat's behind what right-wing religious nuts think? They already told us that dinosaurs had saddles, the world is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, and Obama was born in Kenya. Keep listening to these morons, and before you know it, we will have to live under their version of sharia.
354
Just be sure to NOT elect any of the right-wing religious fanatics to public office. But if you insist on doing it, make sure they're not any higher in the food chain that county clerk, which is easy enough to work around if they get uppity about their personal beliefs.
3
Many of us live in states where these people run the government, so we do live under their "Sharia." They pass laws that end up in courts for years, but in the meantime the communities suffer.
Why? Even in the south, religious right types are a minority--a large minority. But they VOTE, every time, even in the little local elections (especially in the little local elections). Their pastors give them handouts, and they show up at the polls with their "ballot" ready.
Meanwhile, other saner people turn up their nose at politics--it's too dirty, too complicated, too slow to make a change. So they don't vote, they don't even bother to find out who is running, to understand issues, to figure out who is behind certain initiatives. Young people especially are just disengaged.
I did environmental work for years, and this was insanely frustrating. The smart young people who understood the issues just turned up their noses when it was time to contact politicians. They were "too busy" to go to the polls, even though they had weeks with early voting.
Don't think this can't happen in your town. All you need is a disengaged citizenry who won't bother to vote.
Why? Even in the south, religious right types are a minority--a large minority. But they VOTE, every time, even in the little local elections (especially in the little local elections). Their pastors give them handouts, and they show up at the polls with their "ballot" ready.
Meanwhile, other saner people turn up their nose at politics--it's too dirty, too complicated, too slow to make a change. So they don't vote, they don't even bother to find out who is running, to understand issues, to figure out who is behind certain initiatives. Young people especially are just disengaged.
I did environmental work for years, and this was insanely frustrating. The smart young people who understood the issues just turned up their noses when it was time to contact politicians. They were "too busy" to go to the polls, even though they had weeks with early voting.
Don't think this can't happen in your town. All you need is a disengaged citizenry who won't bother to vote.
7
I care what right-wing religious nuat think because even now they have a huge influence on Government. Just possibly they might win the White House next year.
4
The Trump phenomenon is the culmination of a bad marriage between religious conservatism and big money (i.e., today's Republican party). Doesn't matter that Trump (the big businessman) is using his own money rather than a superPAC. Moral of the story: be careful of who you get into bed with.
17
Amen. But preach the same sermon to the Clintons.
1
Actually, Trump made his fortune through real estate and construction, not casinos, which are no longer only in Las Vegas and Atlantic City, hence his need to file bankruptcy (which any businessperson would have done under similar circumstances).
I know the establishment GOP is scared of a successful Trump candidacy. Now I see the left is similarly fearful.
I know the establishment GOP is scared of a successful Trump candidacy. Now I see the left is similarly fearful.
4
I understand that that is what a business person would have done, but is that what an honest man would have done? If Trump is anywhere near as rich as he claims to be, paying back those legitimate debts should have been no problem. In fact for an honest man it would have been a necessary obligation.
34
". . . paying back those legitimate debts should have been no problem"
If business executives were made personally liable for their company's debts, all commerce everywhere would cease.
If business executives were made personally liable for their company's debts, all commerce everywhere would cease.
2
Uh, The guy running the Southern Baptist Convention is probably not on "the left".
But if actual Christian values were the actual measure, it would not be some automatic assignment of the arbitrary political divide of either right or left.
5
Many Americans, including many evangelicals, are drawn to Trump because in him they see themselves. Yes, Trump is a mirror, reflecting the ugly side of Americans, the intolerance, the bombast, the ignorance. He is us. To reject Trump is to reject ourselves.
42
In a society that pays lip service to Judeo-Christian religion, especially of the fundamentalist calvinist sort, what could be more natural than to select a candidate who is obviously one of the Elect? He's wealthy, after all, and Calvin taught that many of those who were wealthy were merely those to whom the Lord had shown His favor. In anno 2015 for most Americans, their real religion includes money as one of its tutelary household deities, much as the ancient Romans worshipped their own household gods. Now it's money, NFL football and online porn that does it for many of my co-citizens. Why not vote for the plutocrat? At least he speaks frankly and is not likely to be swayed by other plutes.
44
Trump is a breathtakingly crass example, but this is nothing new: a significant portion of the evangelical electorate has long been unbothered, or perhaps even attracted, by hypocrisy and blatant self-service in its leaders. Showiness and bluster, I am afraid, have a long tradition in the American mix of religion and politics.
46
I can't help feeling bad for Evangelical Christians who support the Republican party because of its stance on social issues. It's hard to imagine many of the candidates actually care about things like abortion or the sanctity of marriage, or whatever else social conservatives care about. The Republican party is the party of helping rich people get richer, which seems to me fundamentally in opposition to Christian principles in general.
118
I agree. Abortion restrictions no matter how harsh are not relevant to the 1%. For the wives, daughters and mistresses of the 1% an abortion is simply a long weekend in Paris no matter what the law. So it is a no brainer for Republican candidates to oppose abortion. Evangelical Christians are fundamentally faith driven - they believe without evidence and in spite of facts so it certainly possible for them to support Trump.
7
You are right, Joe, that Evangelicals support the GOP because of their public stance on social issues more than anything. There is a belief that if you follow God on these social issues, He will get everything else in order. There is also a belief that when the GOP politicians gain utter control, they will reward their Evangelical supporters for helping them be the winning team. Many that I've met have no idea they are being played and are infinitely expendable.
3
"Have Evangelicals Who Support Trump Lost Their Values?"
In order to lose one's values, one has to first have values. Should we assume some Evangelicals have certain values, simply because of who and what they claim to be?
As Russell Moore, the author, points out, "the problem is not just Mr. Trump’s personal lack of a moral compass. He is, after all, a casino and real estate mogul who has built his career off gambling, a moral vice and an economic swindle that oppresses the poorest and most desperate."
But Evangelicals already eagerly do business with Sheldon Adelson, a far bigger casino mogul than Trump. Adelson hired David Brog, executive director of Christians United for Israel, a two million member Evangelical Zionist organization, to head Adelson-funded anti-BDS efforts across U.S. universities. Led by pastor John Hagee, CUFI supports Israeli settlements in the West Bank, opposing not only international law, and historic bi-partisan U.S. administration policy, but also the teachings of CUFI's members' ostensible Lord, Who proclaimed the Golden Rule.
Moore further asserts Trump's "attitude toward women is that of a Bronze Age warlord." So? How different from Trump's are attitudes toward women of many Republicans/Evangelicals?
The author infers that voters should judge Presidential candidates by their actions, not their words. But we should apply the same criteria to voters, Evangelical or not, judging them by their own actions, not their words or claims of identity.
In order to lose one's values, one has to first have values. Should we assume some Evangelicals have certain values, simply because of who and what they claim to be?
As Russell Moore, the author, points out, "the problem is not just Mr. Trump’s personal lack of a moral compass. He is, after all, a casino and real estate mogul who has built his career off gambling, a moral vice and an economic swindle that oppresses the poorest and most desperate."
But Evangelicals already eagerly do business with Sheldon Adelson, a far bigger casino mogul than Trump. Adelson hired David Brog, executive director of Christians United for Israel, a two million member Evangelical Zionist organization, to head Adelson-funded anti-BDS efforts across U.S. universities. Led by pastor John Hagee, CUFI supports Israeli settlements in the West Bank, opposing not only international law, and historic bi-partisan U.S. administration policy, but also the teachings of CUFI's members' ostensible Lord, Who proclaimed the Golden Rule.
Moore further asserts Trump's "attitude toward women is that of a Bronze Age warlord." So? How different from Trump's are attitudes toward women of many Republicans/Evangelicals?
The author infers that voters should judge Presidential candidates by their actions, not their words. But we should apply the same criteria to voters, Evangelical or not, judging them by their own actions, not their words or claims of identity.
139
Many successful CEO's are sociopaths, noted for their clever manipulations, sales pitches, and lack of genuine concern for other's feelings.
Borderline personality disorders are also known for insensitivity to others but lack the superficial charm of sociopaths.
Trump like personalities attract white male high school grads running on low information and desperate for validation of their simplistic solutions to America's problems.
Trump and this entire campaign may best be seen as only another cog in a bad machine, the machine being a declining America.
Borderline personality disorders are also known for insensitivity to others but lack the superficial charm of sociopaths.
Trump like personalities attract white male high school grads running on low information and desperate for validation of their simplistic solutions to America's problems.
Trump and this entire campaign may best be seen as only another cog in a bad machine, the machine being a declining America.
61
Only point make is your comment about "declining America". I don't know what you base this opinion on. Guess I don't see a decline. Of course whatever party that is not in power thinks the country is going to hell-- that's politics. And many of the public think the same way when leadership is not doing what they think should be done. Obviously then the country must be declining since all of us know what is best and how things should done. Ain't Monday morning quarterbacking a lot of fun!!
The social conservatives no longer have the clout they once did. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of gay marriage earlier this year which means the evangelicals have lost one of their favorite issues. Kim Davis's brief show of defiance in refusing to issue gay couples marriage licenses in Kentucky was an exercise in futility in the end. Abortion is still legal despite the current conservative attempt to demonize Planned Parenthood. Best of all the current Republican front runner is from that corrupt bastion of GOP evil, New York City. The influence the evangelicals once had over national politics in the GOP is clearly waning.
25
Oh that it were true. In last night's debate Jeb Bush, who had previously come out strongly against Kim Davis waffled and then waffled some more. He did not dare to state his previous position that she was wrong because as a public servant she was obligated to abide by the U.S. Constitution in front of a partisan crowd which is driven by the ideology of the Christian Conservatives.
3
One of the offshoots of all this; evangelicals are growing impatient with the republican party because they have done nothing when controlling government to win the 'culture wars'. This may be how they show the republican party the door.
Trump will not honor his word regarding a third party run if that run is good for Trump. That may be our salvation.
Trump will not honor his word regarding a third party run if that run is good for Trump. That may be our salvation.
I despise Donald Trump. I despise evangelicals espousing their "values" even more. Clearly, their belief is that people who do not share their viewpoints have no values. How asinine and narrow-minded.
98
This is true of evangelicals of every race, religion, and ideological leaning. Christian and Islamic fundamentalists, Orthodox Jews, Republicans, Democrats, etc. Their way, their god, is the only truth. They proselytize their poison, convinced, based on zero (or distorted) facts that their beliefs are irrefutable. Beliefs are just that, they are NOT facts. Everyone should keep theirs to themselves unless asked. Let's stay focussed on the problems in the country and the world and use our collective intellect and compassion to try to solve some of them in thoughtful, collaborative ways that consider everyone's needs and interests, rather than trying to shove one-sided ideological "right" solutions down everyone's throats.
3
So you had no problem with people that expressed their viewpoints against gay marriage then, right? Or, were they hateful homophobes because of their differing viewpoint?
Can't have it both ways, unfortunately.
Can't have it both ways, unfortunately.
1
All the candidates, except Rubio, demonize immigrants. All the candidates, except Trump, want to cut taxes on the rich in order to cut services to the poor. Who should evangelicals vote for? Who would Jesus vote for?
I'm pretty sure it's none of the Republicans. Jesus had no issue with taxes (render unto Caesar, after all), and personally provided services to the poor. He cared so much about abortion and homosexuality that He mentioned them not at all, not even once. If Obamacare was the best way to cure the sick, He'd be all for it.
Clearly, the Democrats would be the choice of Jesus, and should be that of the evangelicals as well.
I'm pretty sure it's none of the Republicans. Jesus had no issue with taxes (render unto Caesar, after all), and personally provided services to the poor. He cared so much about abortion and homosexuality that He mentioned them not at all, not even once. If Obamacare was the best way to cure the sick, He'd be all for it.
Clearly, the Democrats would be the choice of Jesus, and should be that of the evangelicals as well.
210
If there is no choice available but evils, choose the lesser ones, eh?
I do not think Democrats would be the choice of Jesus. In your statement you are missing a key component of democrats. They support Planned Parenthood with enthusiasm. They also support the killing of innocent babies. No, I don't think Jesus would be a democrat or a republican.
Since when have the fundamentalist religious been rational thinkers?
How did "faith" evolve into intentional ignorance?
fwa
How did "faith" evolve into intentional ignorance?
fwa
83
I suppose faith was always an acknowledgement of ignorance, if only subconsciously. All the dangers of the world, all the contrariness of human nature needed explanations. But now, when we know so much about the universe, it is perverse to go on believing Genesis literally.
1
Trump's success among evangelicals is evidence that social conservatives are waking up to the reality that they have been used by the Republican party.
26
@ Neal -- Unfortunately, I doubt that social conservatives are "waking up" to anything. Rather the reverse. Their simultaneous love of Trump and their hatred of anything that is not "Christian" shows a mental state approaching the comatose. Unless Trump runs for president as an independent [very possible] they will vote the straight Republican ticket, as they have for decades. "The sleep of reason breeds monsters."
5
I would argue that many evangelicals that support Trump have not lost their values. Trump is anti New Testament. Many of the evangelicals support the Republican party. Is greed a New Testament virtue? Is never ending war a New Testament value? If hate were love the anti gay, anti immigrant, anti poor, anti minority party, would be a party of saints. But hate is not love. The evangelicals are anti New Testament or anti Jesus' message of forgiveness, acceptance and unconditional love. The evangelicals are the personification of the anti-Christ.
So no those evangelicals that support Trump have not lost their values. Hate, greed and false pride are their values.
So no those evangelicals that support Trump have not lost their values. Hate, greed and false pride are their values.
288
Agree with this evaluation of evangelicals. Prime examples of their arrogance and extreme right-wing beliefs are their preachers who run massive businesses based on pseudo-christianity. Billy Graham and his ilk are businessmen making money off the poor to become billionaires. If there were such a place they would end up in hell. Its about time the world moved on from the idea of the supernatural and realized that we are the product of evolution and that the only existence we have is the here and now. Get rid of religion which always leads to war and enjoy the only life one will get.
1
And you think the democrats are any better than republicans? At least republicans used to be for true capitalism, small government and were majority pro life. Unfortunately this has changed. However, they are still better than democrats. Who believe in killing babies and selling the parts. Democrats believe that Iran will be kind to us and not bomb us. How stupid can you be?
I wonder if this comment will be posted, but since when were evangelicals such paradigms of morality? After all, this is a religion that believes that salvation comes simply from pronouncing publicly one's fealty to a deity, then what you do afterwards is of minor importance. Call me an old, cantankerous, lapsed Catholic, I guess....
93
Jaybird,
Why do you think your comment would not be posted? The NYT does NOT censor plus I think the editors are capable of dealing with a wide range of opinions, even yours.
Why do you think your comment would not be posted? The NYT does NOT censor plus I think the editors are capable of dealing with a wide range of opinions, even yours.
2
If something is illogical on its face, expect that it's temporary.
Donald Trump is the least likely champion of evangelicals and social conservatives imaginable. His entire life is one of near-unbridled license by their standards, and to the extent that he's been political at all he's been on the left more often than on the right. Moreover, he's not merely a buffoon but one who believes that buffoonery is somehow praiseworthy in a president.
The problem is that the socially conservative base that supports him is also the demographic most disgusted with the direction, or rather lack of direction, that America has taken, and they equate that with establishment politicians. Trump is nothing if not anti-establishment, and that appeals to many for now.
I actually expect to see one day when at its start The Donald is still heading the polls, but at the end finds he has no support at all, because the base that currently buoys him twigs to who he really is and how alien that is to who they really are. And the reason that this will happen is because the socially conservative right HASN'T lost its values.
Breathe in and out for awhile longer, and we soon won't have The Donald to kick around anymore.
Donald Trump is the least likely champion of evangelicals and social conservatives imaginable. His entire life is one of near-unbridled license by their standards, and to the extent that he's been political at all he's been on the left more often than on the right. Moreover, he's not merely a buffoon but one who believes that buffoonery is somehow praiseworthy in a president.
The problem is that the socially conservative base that supports him is also the demographic most disgusted with the direction, or rather lack of direction, that America has taken, and they equate that with establishment politicians. Trump is nothing if not anti-establishment, and that appeals to many for now.
I actually expect to see one day when at its start The Donald is still heading the polls, but at the end finds he has no support at all, because the base that currently buoys him twigs to who he really is and how alien that is to who they really are. And the reason that this will happen is because the socially conservative right HASN'T lost its values.
Breathe in and out for awhile longer, and we soon won't have The Donald to kick around anymore.
37
You give the American electorate too much credit for rationality. Our appetite for "bread and circus" has been carefully developed for generations, and finally we can't make the necessary connections any more. Boehner and McConnell can proclaim their determination to destroy Obama, and a large chunk of America applauds, not realizing that paralyzing the government will ultimately be fatal to many, many people.
In the end, we get the government we deserve, alas.
In the end, we get the government we deserve, alas.
10
That a billionaire celebrity could be considered "anti-establishment" just because he differs in a few minor talking points & personality traits from the Republican script is evidence only of how rigid & doctrinaire the party has become.
5
I hope you're right, but I'm not counting on it. This is a party that has gotten Ronald Reagan and Arnold Schwarzenegger into high office! I wonder how many people said, "Relax. They're entertaining, but they'll never be elected..."
6
It is not that evangelicals who support Trump are merely hypocritical, it is the acceptance of their hypocrisy by media that is the real travesty. Some marginal evangalical politician will say something outlandish or downright crazy and it gets either gets reported as a legitimate fact or a debatable point with merit. Stop giving these fools the time of day,
309
That would include Trump.
"fools?"
you mean like people who actually believe government works?
you mean like people who actually believe government works?
"Have Evangelicals Who Support Trump Lost Their Values?"
No. Their values were reshaped by false prophets to begin with.
No. Their values were reshaped by false prophets to begin with.
342
Imagine such a thing said about the other protected classes in this country.
1
Rima, just curious if you'd say the same of Muslims. Especially here in the Comments section. Or are they conveniently "different"?
I'll be waiting for your answer...
I'll be waiting for your answer...
2
I've said it about Jews and Christians and Muslims too.
As a half-Jew, half-Arab who was educated in public and religious schools, I have no issue calling out whomever merits it. It isn't pointing to hypocrisy and amorality that is bigoted. It's being a bigot that is bigoted. The false prophets example is one that is rooted in Judaism and Christianity and it is well understood. The fact that it offends you is on you.
"Therefore, the nation and kingdom which will not serve him, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and will not put their neck under his yoke - that nation will I punish, says the L-rd, with the sword, and with famine, and with pestilence, until I have destroyed them by his hand. Therefore, do not listen to your false prophets, nor to your diviners, nor dreamers, nor enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, that tell you not to serve the king of Babylon... But the nations that bring their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him, those will I let remain still in their own land, says the L-rd, and they shall till it, and dwell therein..." Jeremiah 27:4-11
As a half-Jew, half-Arab who was educated in public and religious schools, I have no issue calling out whomever merits it. It isn't pointing to hypocrisy and amorality that is bigoted. It's being a bigot that is bigoted. The false prophets example is one that is rooted in Judaism and Christianity and it is well understood. The fact that it offends you is on you.
"Therefore, the nation and kingdom which will not serve him, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and will not put their neck under his yoke - that nation will I punish, says the L-rd, with the sword, and with famine, and with pestilence, until I have destroyed them by his hand. Therefore, do not listen to your false prophets, nor to your diviners, nor dreamers, nor enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, that tell you not to serve the king of Babylon... But the nations that bring their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him, those will I let remain still in their own land, says the L-rd, and they shall till it, and dwell therein..." Jeremiah 27:4-11
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Many of the people who refer to themselves as evangelicals are just angry xenophobes who hide their hatred behind a mask of piety.
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Many of the people who refer to themselves as liberals are just angry humanists who hide their hatred behind a mask of freedom.
2
Why stop at "xenophobes"? They hate so many other people and ideals that make America great.
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HDNY, please provide the supporting data for your claim. Otherwise it's just internet tough-guy hyperbole.
The author seems to be writing that "evangelicals" have divorced their concern for certain social values for a political movement led by a demagogue lacking in morality. One might write that either DT has great talent at manipulating the emotions of "evangelicals," or those same people are prone to racist calls and policies rank with suffering: mass deportation and splitting families. That some of his statements are jejune yet have such appeal says much about his supporters lack of a semblance of critical thinking.
I appreciate that Mr. Moore is scolding his brothers in faith but he should be asking why DT has such appeal to them. Those same evangelicals are very much the same as the Tea Party whose members are opposed to those policies which support the poor.
I appreciate that Mr. Moore is scolding his brothers in faith but he should be asking why DT has such appeal to them. Those same evangelicals are very much the same as the Tea Party whose members are opposed to those policies which support the poor.
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Nail on the head, Arthur. Thank you for pointing out the obvious, of which Russell Moore seems oblivious: Trump's "supporters lack a semblance of critical thinking".
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These 'evangelicals' have the same lack of morality as they have had since the Civil War. They do not regard anyone who thinks differently or looks different as a decent human being; thus they have no problem in ignoring the Biblical injunction to 'do unto others as you have them do unto you.' This, over time, has applied to native Americans, African Americans, women, other immigrant groups, and now, of course, Muslims. And most of the GOP is very happy to follow along.
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My fear is not that evangelicals will be attracted to Trump, but that they will get to Trump and he will get "saved." He is bad enough now! Can you imagine him SAVED!!
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It's logically inconsistent for the NYT to try to use religion to turn people against Trump.
It's unfortunate that the right and left can't agree that the US has only enough resources for a limited number of immigrants and then move on from there.
But while the NYT is grasping at every trick in the book to undermine Trump it stifles a reasonable discussion about the important issues: money in politics, jobs, education, environment, national security, ...
It's unfortunate that the right and left can't agree that the US has only enough resources for a limited number of immigrants and then move on from there.
But while the NYT is grasping at every trick in the book to undermine Trump it stifles a reasonable discussion about the important issues: money in politics, jobs, education, environment, national security, ...
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This piece was not written by anyone employed by the NYT. It was written by a representative of the Southern Baptist Convention. Are you suggesting the NYT should have declined to run it?
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How does this "conspiracy theory" make sense? Trump in not electable. If Trump gets the Republican nomination, the Democrats will win. NYT should be championing Trump to help him get the nomination. That is, if what you think is true. The truth is more simple - NYT printed an OPINION piece by a prominent Baptist leader. Maybe NYT is more fair and balanced than you give them credit for. Or maybe you just want to find a conspiracy....
6
The U.S. is awash in so much hoarded cash we could build a home for and feed every human being on earth. And still have plenty left over to rebuild our Country.
Trump, remember, is one of the hoarders.
Trump, remember, is one of the hoarders.
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Social conservatives have more values than this article acknowledges.
They also value honesty and candor. They also value success. They also value "not politician" among a bunch they rightly don't trust.
Most of all, social conservatives include many who are NOT conservative on other matters. They value jobs and helping the middle class and fair taxes, not just more wealth for the wealthy at the expense of everyone else.
Trump is hitting a fault line among Republicans. They don't much like or trust the donor class, nor the candidates hired by the donor class.
Those who do not want to follow Trump into the general election had best wake up to what they voter base does not want to follow: hired mouths spouting prepared lies.
They also value honesty and candor. They also value success. They also value "not politician" among a bunch they rightly don't trust.
Most of all, social conservatives include many who are NOT conservative on other matters. They value jobs and helping the middle class and fair taxes, not just more wealth for the wealthy at the expense of everyone else.
Trump is hitting a fault line among Republicans. They don't much like or trust the donor class, nor the candidates hired by the donor class.
Those who do not want to follow Trump into the general election had best wake up to what they voter base does not want to follow: hired mouths spouting prepared lies.
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@Mark Thompson in Clawson: or inconvenient stuff like sound policy? Calling smart people with whom you disagree "stupid" is not anything but bullying to cover a lack of substance. It is not "telling it like it is" or "telling the truth" or any such nonsense. Trump is plugging into anger on the right for sure, but he lacks the principles and values many in his cheering crowd have long claimed to hold. Perhaps they will get their fill of raw meat and move on. Perhaps Mr. Trump will get the nomination and then hand the election to the Democrats - that works for me. What he will not do is end up in the White House.
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Anne-Marie, Mark,
None of them will make it to the White House. The mainstream media has been gorging on this clown freak show in order to obscure the real debates that are going on, on the left. This election will be about the American precariat and civil rights. It will be about unemployment, underemployment and the long term unemployed who are now beginning to lose their eligibility for SNAP and other welfare, thanks to the policy changes of Bill Clinton's administration. It will be about economics - not only prescriptions to fix inequality, but how to do capitalism right. It will take a political revolution to get these things settled. But, first, it will take a reader revolt to force the Times and other papers to cover the primaries in a substantive way. Failure to do so, will further imperil an already battered medium.
None of them will make it to the White House. The mainstream media has been gorging on this clown freak show in order to obscure the real debates that are going on, on the left. This election will be about the American precariat and civil rights. It will be about unemployment, underemployment and the long term unemployed who are now beginning to lose their eligibility for SNAP and other welfare, thanks to the policy changes of Bill Clinton's administration. It will be about economics - not only prescriptions to fix inequality, but how to do capitalism right. It will take a political revolution to get these things settled. But, first, it will take a reader revolt to force the Times and other papers to cover the primaries in a substantive way. Failure to do so, will further imperil an already battered medium.
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Anne-Marie Hislop -- I agree with you. I think you missed my point.
I am saying that a good part of the Republican base is waking up to the fact that they agree with you too. Many "social conservatives" are also economic liberals.
I'm not a social conservative, but I think it is important to understand them to understand the Republican race, and I think this article fails in that in important ways. There is much more support for economic justice than Republican pundits dare acknowledge.
I agree with you about Trump too. But obviously many Republicans don't. Why? I think it is as I said, he does actually speak to some of their important values. He's a boor? Yes, but look at the alternatives for Republicans.
I am saying that a good part of the Republican base is waking up to the fact that they agree with you too. Many "social conservatives" are also economic liberals.
I'm not a social conservative, but I think it is important to understand them to understand the Republican race, and I think this article fails in that in important ways. There is much more support for economic justice than Republican pundits dare acknowledge.
I agree with you about Trump too. But obviously many Republicans don't. Why? I think it is as I said, he does actually speak to some of their important values. He's a boor? Yes, but look at the alternatives for Republicans.
11
Trump is clearly a sociopath. I'm not surprised that many otherwise good people fail to notice that his actions and beliefs are 180 degrees off from their own moral convictions, and follow him blindly as he tries to lead America off the abyss.
Sociopaths excel at this sort of thing.
Sociopaths excel at this sort of thing.
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What do you expect from someone whose bedtime reading was Hitler's speeches from 1918-39, according to his first wife in an interview with Vanity Fair in 1990?
1
Trump reminds me of Putin.
1