Since this article is provoking comparisons of the US. and French school systems, let me point out that French high school & college students frequently participate in strikes & demonstrations of a political and social nature, at an age when their American counterparts are more concerned with binge-drinking, Spring Break, frat pranks and and partying. Why do young Americans have such an abominable grasp of world geography? Questions such as "What part of France is Italy in" stun French people on a regular basis. Something in the French educational system makes teenagers & young adults more knowledgeable of the world outside France and Europe than is the case with the same age group in the US.
Peter Gumbel has sold out to the teachers' unions in France. We've had the same problems here and it was only after the implementation of standardized compulsory achievment tests that the difference in graduation rates has become significant. Leaving the choices of subject matter and learning schedules up to teachers, means they will adopt those standards that optimize their salaries, pensions, and working environment: If the French student excels, it will be a coincidence.
I don't think local control is a cure, it certainly encourage inequality in the U.S., and the author hits the nail on the head when he talks about curriculum changes at experimental schools. Students couldn't possibly be interested in Latin if they are like Americans. What typifies the young here -- I con't know France -- is their assumption that now is the pinnacle of knowledge and what we know trumps what has happened in the past. They don't respect tradition so much as admire the knowledge we have. Schools have problems with that in the U.S.
1
Outcomes frequently have their root in expectatIons.
I teach English to adults and adolescents. Muslim, Catholic or Atheist, they have attained a good socio-economic status.
My adult students do not complain about the schools. Their expectation is that their children will do well in school and go on to university. They help their children with homework.
The teens are very serious about getting good scores on state exams, and study diligently, with their parents.
In almost all cases, both parents work, yet they give time, and discipline, to help their children succeed, like their parents have done before.
In poor and/or immigrant communities, expectations of children are different. Parents do not provide strict discipline and visits to their homes are loud and chaotic. Frequently, the mothers don't work, yet no one helps the children with homework. Parents expect the schools to do everything.
These children, not disciplined at home, and receiving no parental support for school work, act out in school and fall behind. They are frustrated and angry. Their expectations are low.
Their parents' lack of expectation becomes reality. High dropout rates, unemployment, drug dealing, crime and government assistance.
The teachers' union is not to blame for these scenarios. Teachers, in general, love teaching. But parents must foster a love of knowledge, a respect for discipline and an understanding of the larger culture--and help teachers succeed.
I teach English to adults and adolescents. Muslim, Catholic or Atheist, they have attained a good socio-economic status.
My adult students do not complain about the schools. Their expectation is that their children will do well in school and go on to university. They help their children with homework.
The teens are very serious about getting good scores on state exams, and study diligently, with their parents.
In almost all cases, both parents work, yet they give time, and discipline, to help their children succeed, like their parents have done before.
In poor and/or immigrant communities, expectations of children are different. Parents do not provide strict discipline and visits to their homes are loud and chaotic. Frequently, the mothers don't work, yet no one helps the children with homework. Parents expect the schools to do everything.
These children, not disciplined at home, and receiving no parental support for school work, act out in school and fall behind. They are frustrated and angry. Their expectations are low.
Their parents' lack of expectation becomes reality. High dropout rates, unemployment, drug dealing, crime and government assistance.
The teachers' union is not to blame for these scenarios. Teachers, in general, love teaching. But parents must foster a love of knowledge, a respect for discipline and an understanding of the larger culture--and help teachers succeed.
5
The French public school system combines the paradoxical mix of elitist and egalitarian characteristics that are deeply ingrained in French culture. For those who understood and conformed to the rules, had the brains and were willing to put in the work, the benefits of a rigorous, although rigid and no frills education, were significant. For those who could or would not adapt due to language, cultural or class barriers, as well as late bloomers and rebels, the system was not of much help.
Hopefully it will find a way to become more flexible without entirely sacrificing its broad sense of cultural purpose to some of the ills that plague other countries: slavish obedience to metrics, the fads of narrow education specialists and political correctness . As an American who went through the French system in the 1970's, charter schools, and programs offering second chances to those who has slipped off track were practically unheard of. These are signs of progress!
The assimilation cases of the time were Spanish and Portuguese emmigrants, teacher strikes were pretty common. Latin had just been eliminated as a compulsory subject after a national debate over its implications for the future of civilization. Teachers dreaded classroom visits from central government inspectors. Have things otherwise changed that much?
Hopefully it will find a way to become more flexible without entirely sacrificing its broad sense of cultural purpose to some of the ills that plague other countries: slavish obedience to metrics, the fads of narrow education specialists and political correctness . As an American who went through the French system in the 1970's, charter schools, and programs offering second chances to those who has slipped off track were practically unheard of. These are signs of progress!
The assimilation cases of the time were Spanish and Portuguese emmigrants, teacher strikes were pretty common. Latin had just been eliminated as a compulsory subject after a national debate over its implications for the future of civilization. Teachers dreaded classroom visits from central government inspectors. Have things otherwise changed that much?
3
The French education ministry is a monstrous, Kafkaesque organization where everything and everybody in the far-flung French empire, from Tahiti to Guadeloupe, is organized from Paris. This includes teacher assignments: principals may not know, a week before classes start, who their teachers are. Teachers with the least seniority are assigned to the most disadvantaged school districts. There is no place for variation and adjustment - every student has to read Racine, no matter what.
French teaching styles used to be very punitive, and they probably still are. Low achievers are berated publicly as stupid and incompetent, hardly a great motivator. Remember, one of the influential movies of the New Wave was a high school movie called 400 Blows.
The dysfunctionality of the French school system goes beyond secondary schools. Universities in a school district legally must accept all high school graduates from their region. As a result dropout rates in first-year med school can reach 80 per cent or more. Ambitious, affluent parents send their offspring to the elite Grandes Ecoles, totally apart from the university system.
French teaching styles used to be very punitive, and they probably still are. Low achievers are berated publicly as stupid and incompetent, hardly a great motivator. Remember, one of the influential movies of the New Wave was a high school movie called 400 Blows.
The dysfunctionality of the French school system goes beyond secondary schools. Universities in a school district legally must accept all high school graduates from their region. As a result dropout rates in first-year med school can reach 80 per cent or more. Ambitious, affluent parents send their offspring to the elite Grandes Ecoles, totally apart from the university system.
3
The fact that French teachers possess no accreditation standards, or have performance evaluations imposed on them, is a symptom of the preemption of the academic programs by the teacher's unions and not the fiat of a centralized bureaucracy,.
Every student SHOULD read Racine. This is part of an education. Voilà.
Two fledgling charter schools with conservative Catholic roots are attracting largely Muslim families where the students have to wear school unifirms and say grace before lunch...this amazes me. How is their Muslim faith reconciled to their children saying a Christian grace? I know there are many more issues brought forth in this article but this really stood out.
2
Since participation in charter schools is voluntary, perhaps the Muslims who are sending their children have a greater interest in acculturation and their children's education and also see that they have more in common with Catholics than they have differences.
So what are you saying: That Muslim families are too stupid to realize that their children might be worshiping a false god?
In neighboring Belgium, the Catholic school system accommodates a huge Muslim community. Without them, many Catholic schools would have closed their doors by now. I guess that kids are told at home to ignore the prayers and catechism, but exposed to the religion nevertheless.
This should remind us that most religious people are tolerant and open-minded, even as the news is bombarding us with examples of religious fanatics' extreme behavior.
This should remind us that most religious people are tolerant and open-minded, even as the news is bombarding us with examples of religious fanatics' extreme behavior.
I sent my kids to a French public school in a close Paris suburb for 9 years. Coming from Canada, I found the school system overly institutionalized - centralized, and teachers were but cogs in the wheel of a large machine. Here at least, the school is a part of the community - in France, schools play hardly any role outside academic teaching during the school year. France needs to decentralize education management to its regions, and teachers need to be "free agents", able to apply for jobs when and where they want. As for pay, it may be low, but teachers are actually teaching barely 6 months a year. Our kids had 2 week holidays every 6 weeks. 2 in November, 2 at Christmas, 2 in February and 2 in April, along with 8-9 in the summer. Add in the (very nice!) frequent national holidays, and the 1/2 day only on Wednesdays...
Yes, lots of 2-week vacations all year long, but the school day starts at 8:30am & finishes at 4:30pm. This is true of pre-school (age 3 to 5) as well as grade school & middle school. The emphasis is on learning.
"The results are spectacular: kids written off as complete failures suddenly end up with commendations and are going on to university." No, you mean "to college".
Any article about France that uses the word "arrondissement"
should also include an annotated chart of the greater Paris area, showing these sectors and their demographics.
should also include an annotated chart of the greater Paris area, showing these sectors and their demographics.
1
Anyone reading an article that uses the word "arrondissement" should do some research on his own, if he does not understand it. One of the problems in education is that too many expect educators to do "everything." We learn best what we must work to learn.
1
This analysis is too restrictive. French scholar system has endured dozens of reform since 1968. And never really changed. In France, le Ministere de l'Education Nationale has a nickname : the mammoth (the nickname is from a former minister). A huge technocratic system unable to adapt to what has really changed : the French society.
Inequality at school is not the specific problem of the education system : it is a symptom of a broader problem in our country. There are now 2 nations within our frontiers : people from wealthy inner cities and the rest of the universe. These 2 worlds coexist but completely ignore each other. This is not only a racial or religious matter : most of all, this is light form of social apartheid. For 2 decades our country has been suffering from a deep identity crisis and our schools reflect that.
Wealthy people have networks, connections, and send their children to elitist Superior Schools after their Baccalaureat, and this is enough to grant these young persons a career. If you are not from a wealthy family but white, you have to fight but can evolve. If you are black, Muslim and from the northern suburb of Paris, you have to be Superman to join the elite.
Well I think this is not very different from the US and many other countries in the world. Except that these other countries did not include the words "Egalite" et "Fraternite" in their motto...
Inequality at school is not the specific problem of the education system : it is a symptom of a broader problem in our country. There are now 2 nations within our frontiers : people from wealthy inner cities and the rest of the universe. These 2 worlds coexist but completely ignore each other. This is not only a racial or religious matter : most of all, this is light form of social apartheid. For 2 decades our country has been suffering from a deep identity crisis and our schools reflect that.
Wealthy people have networks, connections, and send their children to elitist Superior Schools after their Baccalaureat, and this is enough to grant these young persons a career. If you are not from a wealthy family but white, you have to fight but can evolve. If you are black, Muslim and from the northern suburb of Paris, you have to be Superman to join the elite.
Well I think this is not very different from the US and many other countries in the world. Except that these other countries did not include the words "Egalite" et "Fraternite" in their motto...
5
Perhaps French education suffers the influence of American principles: everybody deserves an A, parents lack respect for teachers, books have given way to "media", and sports rule?
My children were educated in Paris in Catholic schools which cost little and had only rudimentary facilities, but one child had four years of Greek and the other five of Latin. Classes ended around four-thirty, only Wednesday and Saturday afternoons were free, and parents were expected to help students memorize extensively in the younger grades. There were no light loads for seniors, no early dismissal, no absences for sports, and we did homework during vacations and summers from kindergarden on. Deference to teachers was demanded not only of students but of their parents as well.
This retrograde education won them admission to the two top universities in the US, where the TAs for math courses were often French graduate students. The scene in France is not yet completely bleak.
My children were educated in Paris in Catholic schools which cost little and had only rudimentary facilities, but one child had four years of Greek and the other five of Latin. Classes ended around four-thirty, only Wednesday and Saturday afternoons were free, and parents were expected to help students memorize extensively in the younger grades. There were no light loads for seniors, no early dismissal, no absences for sports, and we did homework during vacations and summers from kindergarden on. Deference to teachers was demanded not only of students but of their parents as well.
This retrograde education won them admission to the two top universities in the US, where the TAs for math courses were often French graduate students. The scene in France is not yet completely bleak.
5
As a veteran of the French school system from secondary to higher education, I can attest to the hidebound dogmatic way of thinking and doing things which completely inhibits any innovation or big picture thinking. The nationally established pedagogical instructions are to be respected as infallible, for the fate of every educator is under the steely gaze of the academic inspectors whose purpose is to ensure the lockstep adherence to the Written Law. I cannot imagine a more totalitarian way of functioning in a democracy : very reminiscent of the medieval church or various totalitarian regimes of the twentieth century which brought so much happiness and fulfilment to the masses! Quite relieved NOT to have had children to undergo learning in the French educational system.
1
These schools ARE like many others. I felt I could be reading a critique of US schools, except here the complaints are about teaching evolution and climate change. Latin and German (and even French) largely met their demise years/decades ago.
Instead of Latin, maybe they should learn French. I bet they could nail that!
1
"Worst schools in the toughest areas" seems like code for France is demographically changing. Different groups seem to have different results on average so it's no surprise to see France is having different results today. You now have a large portion of the population from very different cultures so different outcomes aren't a surprise?
1
Being an "opinion" column doesn't mean you shouldn't quote your sources or be faithful to them.
You say that *today*, 1 in 4 pupils doesn't complete secondary education, what's the Insee study you're borrowing from ? The only one I could find was about students who were 12 yo ("sixième") *in 1995* : http://www.insee.fr/fr/ffc/docs_ffc/FPORSOC13a_VE1_educ.pdf. Among the 1 out of 4 "décrocheurs", study says 20% still got a secondary education qualified worker degree (CAP or BEP). Furthermore, according to an OECD study from 2012 (http://www.oecd.org/edu/highlights.pdf p.13), France ranks in the top 15 world countries for population that has attained tertiary (post high school) education, above OECD average, above EU average and just above the US.
The 2012 PISA report (http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results-overview.pdf) shows a decrease in average score for France in mathematics (-1.5), but a status quo in reading (0.0) and an improvement in science (0.6). Also, there are no figures in that study about equity (social mobility) for reading and science, only for mathematics. Your analysis is incomplete at best.
You're using a global study with arbitrary, cookie-cutter criteria to show that schools should go stand-alone to adapt to their local specificities. You're advocating cutdowns in education jobs while deploring that we don't open additional classes with very low attendance (German, Latin).
(1/2)
You say that *today*, 1 in 4 pupils doesn't complete secondary education, what's the Insee study you're borrowing from ? The only one I could find was about students who were 12 yo ("sixième") *in 1995* : http://www.insee.fr/fr/ffc/docs_ffc/FPORSOC13a_VE1_educ.pdf. Among the 1 out of 4 "décrocheurs", study says 20% still got a secondary education qualified worker degree (CAP or BEP). Furthermore, according to an OECD study from 2012 (http://www.oecd.org/edu/highlights.pdf p.13), France ranks in the top 15 world countries for population that has attained tertiary (post high school) education, above OECD average, above EU average and just above the US.
The 2012 PISA report (http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results-overview.pdf) shows a decrease in average score for France in mathematics (-1.5), but a status quo in reading (0.0) and an improvement in science (0.6). Also, there are no figures in that study about equity (social mobility) for reading and science, only for mathematics. Your analysis is incomplete at best.
You're using a global study with arbitrary, cookie-cutter criteria to show that schools should go stand-alone to adapt to their local specificities. You're advocating cutdowns in education jobs while deploring that we don't open additional classes with very low attendance (German, Latin).
(1/2)
1
After living in Europe for many years and having many French friends, I slowly realized that the education they received was far, far better than my locally governed school in the USA.
4
(2/2)
I'm not saying that France has a perfect education system, but one thing is for sure - we won't make it better without setting educated goals for it that go a little beyond a #1 rank in the PISA mathematics charts, and we won't make it better based on false assumptions, approximations and non sequiturs.
I'm not saying that France has a perfect education system, but one thing is for sure - we won't make it better without setting educated goals for it that go a little beyond a #1 rank in the PISA mathematics charts, and we won't make it better based on false assumptions, approximations and non sequiturs.
1
The author makes some interesting points. As someone who has attended two universities in France, and who is now looking at putting our child into French preschool, I have two perspectives on the matter.
At the university level, there is no question that continual reforms and the resulting teacher strikes can take a heavy toll. The number of classes that are scheduled but simply not offered due to lengthy teacher strikes can have a tremendous impact on the overall quality of education. The system shrugs; those classes are not made up. University students are expected to understand their striking professors' positions and take their education into their own hands until classes resume.
However, as a parent looking to put my child into preschool, I am quite impressed with the French system. Quality of care and education seem to be very favorably viewed by locals in our town, and I have the choice of sending my child to a free public elementary school or a very inexpensive Catholic elementary school (literally across the street from one another) as soon as he is out of diapers. They will take local field trips, learn to bake a cake together and plant flowers, among other things.
At the university level, there is no question that continual reforms and the resulting teacher strikes can take a heavy toll. The number of classes that are scheduled but simply not offered due to lengthy teacher strikes can have a tremendous impact on the overall quality of education. The system shrugs; those classes are not made up. University students are expected to understand their striking professors' positions and take their education into their own hands until classes resume.
However, as a parent looking to put my child into preschool, I am quite impressed with the French system. Quality of care and education seem to be very favorably viewed by locals in our town, and I have the choice of sending my child to a free public elementary school or a very inexpensive Catholic elementary school (literally across the street from one another) as soon as he is out of diapers. They will take local field trips, learn to bake a cake together and plant flowers, among other things.
You don't say much about the students who are failing. How many of them are third-world immigrants, or the children of third-world immigrants?
It's hard not to suspect that, as here, the issue is certain groups that don't succeed well in school because of linguistic or cultural barriers, or because they are the product of a society that has been largely meritocratic for several generations and has already self-sorted economically on diligence and intelligence.
Then, when this happens, the search for a scapegoat begins. Teachers and unions are blamed, charter schools are formed, government starts introducing reforms that as often as not make things worse.
It's hard not to suspect that, as here, the issue is certain groups that don't succeed well in school because of linguistic or cultural barriers, or because they are the product of a society that has been largely meritocratic for several generations and has already self-sorted economically on diligence and intelligence.
Then, when this happens, the search for a scapegoat begins. Teachers and unions are blamed, charter schools are formed, government starts introducing reforms that as often as not make things worse.
18
Having lived and worked in France, I would say the French educational system actually works better than in the U.S. For example, at my workplace in Silicon Valley, there were only 2 engineers from "minority" backgrounds from the more than 300 engineers. I moved to Paris and my workplace was about 12 engineers were "minority" groups from the banlieuse among the 90 engineers or so working at the lab. It tells me that if you are from a poor and disadvantaged neighborhoods, you are much more likely to have a professional careers and move up the economic ladder in France than in the U.S.
The French educational system of intellectual enrichment is geared more toward the elites than for the hand-on experience. The moneyed-class of Silicon Valley send their children to French schools in San Francisco and Palo Alto so their children can learn about philosophy, languages, and arts etc. So maybe it's not the system that is wrong, but the audience it serves has changed. For example, in the last 30 years the Parisian suburbs has turned from the mostly white middle-class French suburb into poor Middle-Eastern and African communities who put much less values on the intellectual stimulation of the French system.
The French educational system of intellectual enrichment is geared more toward the elites than for the hand-on experience. The moneyed-class of Silicon Valley send their children to French schools in San Francisco and Palo Alto so their children can learn about philosophy, languages, and arts etc. So maybe it's not the system that is wrong, but the audience it serves has changed. For example, in the last 30 years the Parisian suburbs has turned from the mostly white middle-class French suburb into poor Middle-Eastern and African communities who put much less values on the intellectual stimulation of the French system.
37
You must have worked for an interesting employer in Silicon Valley. My husband is an engineer, and 2/3rds of the other engineers are Asian, Indian or MIddle Eastern in origin.
Seriously, you don't know there are Asian and Indian engineers in Silicon Valley? how about H1Bs?
Seriously, you don't know there are Asian and Indian engineers in Silicon Valley? how about H1Bs?
2
Engineers in France are a special breed, as they have long provided bridges from practical training courses to advanced degrees, which provides a lot more social mobility than in other fields. Their example is well worth encouraging.
2
In France there is a lot of way to reach an engineering school because French system gives 2nd chances and everybody can learn better by a different way. Some way more theoretical and others more technical.
Sorry fo my english
Sorry fo my english
1
The U.S. States with the best school systems have lots of small independent one high school large school districts.
States like Georgia rank 48 th or 49 th because even though they are Red States now they are stuck with constitutions that are from 1945 that limit the School districts to those that existed in 1945 or County wide only. 50-120,000 student districts that span 60-90 miles from one edge of the county to another do not serve to educate students. They serve as Adult job complexes. They are patronage systems for the connected friends and family. They are why we had the Atlanta cheating scandal. ( there are more every day that go undetected)
States like Georgia rank 48 th or 49 th because even though they are Red States now they are stuck with constitutions that are from 1945 that limit the School districts to those that existed in 1945 or County wide only. 50-120,000 student districts that span 60-90 miles from one edge of the county to another do not serve to educate students. They serve as Adult job complexes. They are patronage systems for the connected friends and family. They are why we had the Atlanta cheating scandal. ( there are more every day that go undetected)
4
There are no U.S. states with good school systems. The United States has almost 15,000 school districts; within states that do the best on high quality student assessments (e.g., Massachusetts), there are plenty of schools and school districts where most students in most schools are not learning to read or do math successfully. States with the best reputations, like Maryland or Virginia, achieve this reputation by manipulating the content and passing scores of state tests to produce highly positive and highly misleading results. Even that is apparently not enough for them-in Maryland, Montgomery County which claims to be a high performing school district, has just abolished high school exams to eliminate the dissonance between its self-proclaimed reputation and the quite high failure rates of its students.
1
Centralization of authority in the name of equality fails again. If you are surprised, read more history.
10
No accident that French education has been undermined by rightwing politicians, like Sarkozy. A well educated populace is a threat to any plutocracy … witness the Bloomberg/Joel Stein 'reform' of NYC public schools.
16
Read the article - French educational system has been "tinkered" with by every administration, left or right or centrist.
4
Sounds like we have the same problem in Canada (Québec). To many people make their living trying to change everything, continuously making teachers and students their ginny pigs. It's like an army with more officers than soldiers.
10
Quebec schools actually have higher scores on various tests than schools in the rest of Canada, and internationally they are doing fine. And elite private schools are comparatively cheap, in terms of tuition fees.
I used to envy France's knowledge-focused national curriculum. Students in France used to emerge from school actually knowing things. By contrast American schools tend to denigrate knowledge (facts are always "mere facts") and glorify skills. We fixate on exercising reading and writing skills, with dismal results: after 12 years of intensive cultivation, many of our kids still graduate as abysmal readers and writers --and ignorant to boot! As E.D. Hirsch and a growing number of other education authorities are now realizing, France had it right: possessing a broad knowledge base is the key to reading and writing (and thinking) ability. Our brains were built to think --they're thinking machines --but they were born empty of knowledge. American schools attempt the absurd but very impressive-sounding task of "teaching kids to think", which is not only not necessary, but not possible. Meanwhile they neglect to do what is both critically important and possible: bestow core knowledge about the world they live in. But I've heard that France has drifted away from a knowledge-focused curriculum. I wonder if this is a factor.
20
@Ben Foley: I totally agree with your conclusions. I was educated in a private Catholic school in Europe many decades ago, before the fever of reform ruined a perfectly good educational system. I was lucky to be taught Latin language and literature, French language and literature, history, philosophy, psychology, chemistry, basic physics, from first grade until graduation from high school. Years later, as an adult, I decided to go to college here in the US, and found that my high school education was the equivalent of a couple of years of college here, and was able to graduate with honors with little effort. Sadly, too many school systems are forgetting that the humanities are gymnastics for the mind - they create a strong intellectual environment in young people's minds where knowledge, ideas, understating and critical thinking can take hold thrive for the rest of their lives.
4
What's wrong with French schools is that every new government and every new minister thinks they are supposed to reform French schools, and they introduce changes which upset normality and cause all participants - students, teachers, and parents - to adjust. Change has a cost and should not be entered into unless there are clear and overwhelming benefits, and not just because it suits a minister's particular temperament and sounds good. If the government would just let the teachers teach, the system while not perfect would work better than it has been allowed to. The last thing French schools need are foreign consultants, however well-meaning and however convinced they understand the culture, offering their own marginal solutions.
17
When I read that a system has suddenly begun to collapse, I wonder -- What changed? The entire essay says not a word about that. It's impossible to draw any conclusion without asking that question.
42
Massive immigration from the third world.
Just a guess, but come on. It's the elephant in the room here -- it isn't our supposedly failing school system that's failing, it's a disproportionate percentage of students from certain groups -- in our case, black and Hispanic. If you look at other groups, they do just fine by any world measure.
Just a guess, but come on. It's the elephant in the room here -- it isn't our supposedly failing school system that's failing, it's a disproportionate percentage of students from certain groups -- in our case, black and Hispanic. If you look at other groups, they do just fine by any world measure.
4
Gee, sounds like U.S. schools!
3
Yes, there is no doubt that French schools are not the high performers that they once were. How much of that earlier reputation was based on actual facts and figures, and not just on an idealized image of well-behaved (regimented) students reciting poems and taking the baccalaureate exam, however, is very much in question. Now, we have the PISA exams to provide us with an objective standard of measurement, and France's ranking is not impressive. But is Mr. Gumbel justified in placing so much trust in those exams? Administered by the OECD, the PISA is designed to help nations increase their rate of economic growth by encouraging them to train their population for 21st-century careers. A worthy goal, no doubt, but hardly consistent with a more humanistic conception of the role of education. We see this in American schools and universities: are we speculating on an uncertain increase in global competitiveness by teaching our kids, not how to live better, but how to make as much money as possible? Maybe being at the top of the PISA rankings is not always such a good thing.
17
You describe the French education system as "inegalitarian", and mention that outcomes roughly correlate with economic status, but then give no evidence regarding how this outcome is inegalitarian - e.g. disparate funding of school districts, fewer resources available to certain schools, etc.
Disparate outcome is not per se evidence of an "inegalitarian" system.
Disparate outcome is not per se evidence of an "inegalitarian" system.
3
You seem to be equating French school system with the American one - disparate funding, fewer resources, etc. are not as much an issue in France because, as the article describes, it is an incredibly centralized system.
I'm a French of 29. We recently took a look to our former classmates with my girlfriend. We ended up with the same conclusion: classmates who had a wealthy, "normal", "white" family are now architects, CEO of their own company, engineer in the most famous French companies, because they had no troubles to study in the best and most expensive "private schools" in place of the public universities. Schools where almost everyone is from a wealthy, "normal", "white" family, and where everybody hates those that are from the "slums" thanks to a recent attempt to bring more diversity by rewarding some of the "worst senior highs" best elements a few scholarships. After graduating, they found a job almost immediately, some even easily switched to find a more suitable position. From a recent documentary, it turned out that thos who benefited from a scholarship also made a living, but in lower standards: they are not inside or even holding the alumni directory book of their respective schools.
Others are unemployed, struggling with temporary jobs for which they are "overqualified", freelance designers still living with their parents at age over 25. Some others became clerks, tree surgeons, mechanics, stallholders.
For sure they are a few exceptional, but they are sadly rare. We didn't really need a study to know that our educational system is everything but egalitarian.
Others are unemployed, struggling with temporary jobs for which they are "overqualified", freelance designers still living with their parents at age over 25. Some others became clerks, tree surgeons, mechanics, stallholders.
For sure they are a few exceptional, but they are sadly rare. We didn't really need a study to know that our educational system is everything but egalitarian.
17
There are studies which indicate that a French job seeker with a French name is much more likely to get a job offer than a similar candidate with a foreign, esp Arabic, name. Racism is rampant in France - polls indicate that Marie le Pen is more popular than Hollande.
1
Dump the federal government run schools. Principals and their disciple employees are extremely overpaid. If I had followed the test results of my high school years and the advice of guidance idiots, I still would be at an assemble line working for slave wages. A common refrain among adults of nearly any age is that they remember very little of high school studies, or, when skills are learned, they attribute their own practice at retaining these skills learned. Obviously when a teacher has a small number of students to teach, progress is made. To support my view of smaller is better, drop by a football practice of any school level. One will notice there is a line coach, a backfield coach, a quarterback coach, a receiver coach, a specialty team coach, and then a head coach. When we accept the fact that teaching is a small enterprise affair between a teacher and a limited number of students, we then will see progress.
7
Your example of a football team ironically reveals why the American system suck. To much emphasis on funding sports, and not enough on studies. All this coaches cost dearly, and only raises students awareness on how to hurt each other, and demonized the other.
1
It takes more resources to teach kids that are poor, from immigrant families, etc. 'One size fits all' doesn't work. Parental choice is necessary to counter the propensity for bureaucratic inertia that characterizes most public educational systems.
6
Obviously one needs to establish the right explanation that be able to fix education in France. And as the author says there is no consensus on this explanation.
The author proposes that it is the sheer size and centralized nature of the education system which causes the problem. But this has always been the case in France. Education has been centralized since the 19th century with mandatory education for all (with also a mix of catholic schools). Centralized education has been a success in France, actually it has been the pride of the public school system (same teachers everywhere). If this centralisation is now failing it is because society is changing.
Maybe there is a need for new "methods", but I do not think there is one "best fit" for everyone. My feeling is that the french education system has to relinquish the idea of teaching the same things and the same way to all. But this would be a major philosophical change for french education, one that does not fit well with the Republic's ideals.
The author proposes that it is the sheer size and centralized nature of the education system which causes the problem. But this has always been the case in France. Education has been centralized since the 19th century with mandatory education for all (with also a mix of catholic schools). Centralized education has been a success in France, actually it has been the pride of the public school system (same teachers everywhere). If this centralisation is now failing it is because society is changing.
Maybe there is a need for new "methods", but I do not think there is one "best fit" for everyone. My feeling is that the french education system has to relinquish the idea of teaching the same things and the same way to all. But this would be a major philosophical change for french education, one that does not fit well with the Republic's ideals.
13
Above I wrote "the French education system has to relinquish the idea of teaching the same things and the same way to all"
Actually one should teach the same things to all. The difference should be in how fast you teach it and also in the teaching methods.
Actually one should teach the same things to all. The difference should be in how fast you teach it and also in the teaching methods.
It would be interesting to compare with English high schools. I do know that many Pakistani Muslim parents seek to prepare their daughters, too, for university. A friend of my husband who lives in a large city in England, retired, does lots of math and science tutoring for mostly Muslim girls, whose middle class parents respect education, and this man, an orthodox Jew. So much for stereotypes.
5
I wonder abt the details of the stats on 25% pupils dropping out of secondary education. In multicultural societies with substantial economic poverty and familial disorganization appearing in some groups and not in others it is necessary to control for these variables in your concllusions. So, one womders how the stats on school completion would be if you only looked at French non muslim children vs French muslim children and if among these groups you looked at children below or at the poverty line vs those above the poverty line.
15
The key ingredient in any school is the student who is prepared to learn and who comes from an environment that values learning. This student is best able to take advantage of what the school has to offer.
The French system makes innovation difficult and often does not do much to stimulate creativity in the student. Teaching and teachers form part of the political theater in France that surrounds much in the public sector. Sadly, students, the public, and the nation are sometimes held hostage to this theater.
The French system makes innovation difficult and often does not do much to stimulate creativity in the student. Teaching and teachers form part of the political theater in France that surrounds much in the public sector. Sadly, students, the public, and the nation are sometimes held hostage to this theater.
4
Unfortunately -- the parallels to the USA are too clear -- it looks like an immigration issue, at least in part.
http://www.childresearch.net/papers/multi/2010_01.html
http://www.childresearch.net/papers/multi/2010_01.html
8
The French have allowed the immigration of huge numbers of uneducated, unskilled workers (though at least there, they are "migrant workers" and not given amnesty or citizenship!). The only difference is in the US the immigrants (mostly illegal) are from Mexico and Central America -- in France, they are from Muslim nations.
But the general problems of dumping vast numbers of poor, illiterate, unskilled people into a system, giving them lifetime welfare (or "the dole") and ending up with drop outs and unwed mothers -- that is the same. No socialist state can cope with it any better than a capitalist system.
But the general problems of dumping vast numbers of poor, illiterate, unskilled people into a system, giving them lifetime welfare (or "the dole") and ending up with drop outs and unwed mothers -- that is the same. No socialist state can cope with it any better than a capitalist system.
Somber account of the sheer nonsense of a vertical dictatorial system based on seniority and not on teacher's ability to teach. Mediocrity is the result in an educational system supposed to free the minds of millions of students, the promise of tomorrow, so they can exercise the imagination and creativity they were born with, without having their initiative killed by a rigid bureaucracy. If today's students are not taught to think for themselves, it may sow the seeds of dependency and despair. Of course, France is not the only or even the worse example of an educational system gone wrong, but we know it has the potential to shake its stupid rules...and allow a new renaissance in this dynamic of teacher-student excellence. The question is, does France have the will to change? And if the will, the courage to act?
4
"Among other things, there will be fewer possibilities to teach Latin and German, and a new emphasis on interdisciplinary studies.
Too bad. Especially the German. But interdisciplinary studies can be good.
"It is easy to accuse the teachers..."
Ah! The American way!
"There’s worse to come...most of the best French schools are public and free."
France is losing its sense of fraternité. Without fraternité, the sense that everyone matters, there can be no égalité. The U.S. is the proof.
"...the sheer enormity and heavy-handedness of the system."
It is not the main problem. I can tell that you don't work in education.
"...Principals have no authority over the teachers, and don’t form a team.
Principals have authority over teachers in the U.S....and don't form a team.
"This stranglehold is untenable..."
All systems, not just France, are mired in the past and have their own unique untenable positions.
"I spent a year traveling around France visiting schools...
That doesn't making you THE expert.
"...private schools...Homeschooling...
Funny how you believe what doesn't work in the U.S. will work in France.
A small network of so-called “micro-lycées”...
These will solve some problems and cause other problems.
I am glad I will be out the door of the school permanently in about two years. What schools don't need are journalists and authors masquerading are educators.
Too bad. Especially the German. But interdisciplinary studies can be good.
"It is easy to accuse the teachers..."
Ah! The American way!
"There’s worse to come...most of the best French schools are public and free."
France is losing its sense of fraternité. Without fraternité, the sense that everyone matters, there can be no égalité. The U.S. is the proof.
"...the sheer enormity and heavy-handedness of the system."
It is not the main problem. I can tell that you don't work in education.
"...Principals have no authority over the teachers, and don’t form a team.
Principals have authority over teachers in the U.S....and don't form a team.
"This stranglehold is untenable..."
All systems, not just France, are mired in the past and have their own unique untenable positions.
"I spent a year traveling around France visiting schools...
That doesn't making you THE expert.
"...private schools...Homeschooling...
Funny how you believe what doesn't work in the U.S. will work in France.
A small network of so-called “micro-lycées”...
These will solve some problems and cause other problems.
I am glad I will be out the door of the school permanently in about two years. What schools don't need are journalists and authors masquerading are educators.
46
And you, in New Mexico, know better what is the problem in France? Nowhere in the article does the author put himself in the place of "the expert" - he reports on problems, and solutions proposed by French people themselves. Yes, it is "anecdotal" reporting, but it does not deserve your dismissive reply.
1
reading and math scores are proof of failure of the american education system.
1
Schools and Governments and only compensate so much for the collapsing family environment. When I look at school performance in the United States, it is very easy to predict how the school ranks. You just have to look at how many students in the student body are on public assistance for meals. The student body on public assistance is itself related to poverty and single parenthood. I suspect the real reasons are the same in France.
20
Yes, Rahul. In the United States the educational opportunities a student gets are solidly correlated to the socio-economic status (SES) of the parents. The look of a school in a wealthy district, say San Marino or Arcadia, CA, compared to schools just blocks away in Los Angeles is completely telling. And if you actually enter the buildings it becomes even more obvious: new computers vs. no computers; smart boards vs. blackboards with actual chalk; green spaces surrounding cafeterias with windows and multiple choice menus vs. no green spaces, no windows, and take-it-or-leave-it pizza and hamburger "entrées;" new textbooks vs. torn and ratty 5-years-and-older textbooks - or no textbooks at all. In some cases, no textbooks means that every kid has a laptop and almost all the textbooks are online or pdf, neatly stuffed into their new laptops.
Inequality hurts us in so many, many ways. ("Perfect equality" would be even worse.) We need, as is so often the case, to find a middle way; in this political climate, it's not likely to happen.
Inequality hurts us in so many, many ways. ("Perfect equality" would be even worse.) We need, as is so often the case, to find a middle way; in this political climate, it's not likely to happen.
13
The key ingredient of any school system--of any classroom--is the teacher. There are numerous stories along these lines--the role of a teacher in a run-down school in London, which Sidney Poitier played in "To 'Sir' With Love" (in 1967) or the role of Jaime Escalante, in Los Angeles, played by James Edward Olmos, in “Stand and Deliver”. Although these roles are portrayals, they are based on real live stories. There are many!
The greatest System in the world means nothing if that teacher in the front of the room doesn’t connect with his or her pupils. But, if those teachers are not empowered to transform the process--not the what, but the how--to their specific classes, and their own teaching style, everything else will be artificial. And, the children can sense that.
Mere information, facts and figures, and even ideas, are meaningless. It takes a creative mind to focus and expand on how to use and improve upon them. Surely, technology can assist us; but, it takes that classroom teacher, who is empowered to unlock the minds within their classroom, in order to let the magic of intelligence loose.
I don’t know of anyone who can succeed when they are micromanaged, enduring constant politically-induced changes, and irrational concepts from on high. Let the power of the classroom teachers loose. As they say in France: “To the streets!”
http://thetruthoncommonsense.com
The greatest System in the world means nothing if that teacher in the front of the room doesn’t connect with his or her pupils. But, if those teachers are not empowered to transform the process--not the what, but the how--to their specific classes, and their own teaching style, everything else will be artificial. And, the children can sense that.
Mere information, facts and figures, and even ideas, are meaningless. It takes a creative mind to focus and expand on how to use and improve upon them. Surely, technology can assist us; but, it takes that classroom teacher, who is empowered to unlock the minds within their classroom, in order to let the magic of intelligence loose.
I don’t know of anyone who can succeed when they are micromanaged, enduring constant politically-induced changes, and irrational concepts from on high. Let the power of the classroom teachers loose. As they say in France: “To the streets!”
http://thetruthoncommonsense.com
26
France, like most of Europe, is having and will continue to have problems with accepting and integrating large numbers of new residents who don't understand its national ideology and are instead there as economic migrants, bettering their own lots without feeling any great need to be acculturated. This is to a considerable extent true in the United States as well. The French education system works pretty well for those who have long been well served by it, which is generally true of the German, American, British, and other systems as well; but competitive systems have winners and losers, inescapably, and while we naturally want to mitigate the suffering of those who will not win in the competitive system, proper recognition of the limits of what can be accomplished in these mitigation efforts needs to be realized, or utopian dreamers will be continually discouraged.
66
Sounds like the USA.
11
I don't buy the argument that the size and centrality of the French education system is a problem for two reasons. First, I see the lack of centrality in the American education system as one of its largest problems, so I am ill disposed to accept the size argument in the first place. Second, the post-war French education system has generally been highly centralized. For example, I remember De Gaulle being quoted (possibly apocryphally) as pointing out that at a given hour of a given day, he, sitting in the Élysée Palace, knew what page of what book every schoolchild in the Republic was reading at that moment. And yet, the French education system has been, during most of the post-war years, one of the best on the planet.
No, I think there are problems in France, enormous ones, but the centrality and size of its education system is not one of them. Instead, I think that the other more fundamental problems in France—such as confusion about what it means to be French and the concomitant difficulty in gaining national momentum when so many people are trying to push in opposing directions—are having a large impact on all French institutions, including their education system. These problems are so large that this morning we learn that even refugees are voting with their feet and *avoiding France*, if they can go anywhere else in Europe. I doubt very much that their antipathy stems from a belief that the French schools aren't good enough for their children.
No, I think there are problems in France, enormous ones, but the centrality and size of its education system is not one of them. Instead, I think that the other more fundamental problems in France—such as confusion about what it means to be French and the concomitant difficulty in gaining national momentum when so many people are trying to push in opposing directions—are having a large impact on all French institutions, including their education system. These problems are so large that this morning we learn that even refugees are voting with their feet and *avoiding France*, if they can go anywhere else in Europe. I doubt very much that their antipathy stems from a belief that the French schools aren't good enough for their children.
32
Kudos for your knowledge about this particular topic but the anecdote a propos de Gaulle needs to be corrected though. It is Napoléon, the creator of the baccalaureat, who is credited with the quote you mention.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baccalaur%C3%A9at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baccalaur%C3%A9at
3
But something that was not a problem in one situation could well be the problem in a different situation.
Centrality and size would likely be far less a problem the more homogeneous the country is, but could be an immense problem once that is no longer the case.
Centrality and size would likely be far less a problem the more homogeneous the country is, but could be an immense problem once that is no longer the case.
1
This is by and large an accurate account, free of exaggeration and hysteria. When the writer describes the centralized nature of the school system and the Education ministry, it must be borne in mind that Centralization is one of the most fundamental characteristics of French culture at every level. One could even say it is a value. It defines not just the functioning of schools, ministries & major corporations, but also the infrastructure. Major train lines and many highways go from Paris to the provinces like spokes from the hub to the periphery of a wheel. On the other hand, when I recently showed my 4-year old French granddaughter, who is in pre-school, a paper-weight with certain scratchings on the underside, she said "cuniforme." I said "What's that?" She replied, "writing." "Where from?" I continued. "Gilgamesh" she replied.
On another occasion we heard snatches of music on the radio and recognizing one morsel I said to her "the Valkyrie!" She corrected me: "The Ride of the Valkyrie." Despite the problems, they are doing some things right, including an excellent 3-year pre-school system which NYC has just initiated, and lots of museum visits. Don't forget, France is a country where order and chaos co-exist. For Anglo-Saxons, this is terrifying because we see Order as good and Chaos as bad, almost a form of evil. Over here, chaos is but a different form of order.
On another occasion we heard snatches of music on the radio and recognizing one morsel I said to her "the Valkyrie!" She corrected me: "The Ride of the Valkyrie." Despite the problems, they are doing some things right, including an excellent 3-year pre-school system which NYC has just initiated, and lots of museum visits. Don't forget, France is a country where order and chaos co-exist. For Anglo-Saxons, this is terrifying because we see Order as good and Chaos as bad, almost a form of evil. Over here, chaos is but a different form of order.
65
yes . . . good for you sir . . . as someone with hard-won graduate degrees in comp lit american style it is heart warming to see such a child with such a background . . . the states should be so fortunate . . . take care of her . . . she is a treasure and so is your country . . .
William wilson dallas texas
William wilson dallas texas
2
Nothing more than all the new kinds of students entering the French school system since the EU/open borders was formulated.
31
Interdisciplinary studies was already passe in the 70's. Wonder why it's been resurrected.
4
That's the nature of education. I learned this in an education class in 1960! The professor likened the phenomenon to a pendulum that swings back and forth. That's one of the reasons for our education woes in the U.S. today, that and the fact that the educational leadership never lets any education program last long enough to see if it really does work! Rigidity is another problem in education. My sister taught in a system that required students to learn by sight reading only, no phonics. She and fellow teachers bought phonics programs on their own and tutored students after school, but they couldn't do it during the school day. Rigidity never works because students learn in different ways. We need to approach them with all the tools at our disposal and the education bureaucracy needs to listen to the teachers in the trenches.
1
Many Americans believe, and are encouraged to believe by politicians seeking to increase the size of government and feather their own nests, that problems of schooling and inequality like these are peculiarly American. They are not. So calm down and don't believe that some kind of systemic corruption led by corporate lobbyists and so forth is occurring in this country. If we have a problem it is usually going to be well known in Europe and elsewhere.
5
With regard to corporate lobbyists, Is French online testing run by Pearson?
3
It pains me to say this, but I'm happy there's a large Western government that has a more dysfunctional system than the US.
My hopes go out to decentralizing a system with more bodies than the Russian armed forces.
My hopes go out to decentralizing a system with more bodies than the Russian armed forces.
13
Decentralization will come in France (never).
1