I am sorry to say , but Mr. Geber's opinion is not really objective and definitely not representative for most of Poles. Bringing up and issue with reopening Auschwitz as an example of "escalated hatred" is highly unfair and not really a truth. Even though it could have been single comments like that ( which I have not seen at all) this is definitely not the opinion of Poles therefore bringing that up as an example is shoddy from journalistic point of view. Finally as Mr Gebert wrote more than 50% of Poles say refugees should be helped. Let Poles discussed that and get the decision which will be good for refugees and to be honest article like this does not help it at all.
8
We have no right to cast stones at Poland for shutting out refugees. Polish society belongs to the long-beleaguered Poles and if they don't want to put out the welcome mat, the red carpet, for thousands of refugees from the Middle East, that is their prerogative. Think of all the Holocaust concentration camps that existed and massacred. cremated millions of "untermenschen" in Poland during WWII. Poland has seen and absorbed and partaken of more than its share of Holocaust, receiving millions of Europe's refugees from Das Dritte Reich in the 1930s and 1940s. No countries or the EU have the right to question the sovereignty of Poland and issue "shoulds" and "oughts" demanding Poland to house refugees in their country.
12
Sorry for my bad English, but it`s not my mother tongue, and writing a post in a hurry. I just couldn`t stand this kind of jurnalism so needed to comment. First of all what means the suggestion, that Poland should "reopen" the Aushchwitz camp- did Poles opened it during WWII? A main argument, that Poles don`t want to invite Arabic refugees, could be repulses with the same one against the US (only 1500 Arabic refugees are invited) or the Israel, as Mr Gebert is a Jude, what he spoke about himselve (Arabic refugees not welcomed at all). This text is full of small mistakes (Mr. Kukiz, who eventually admit that Poland sholud invite more refugees as a head of an extreme-right movement is a joke I think) which makes this article quite false one.
15
Seventy years ago the Poles getting admitted into Iran weren't fleeing as "immigrants" to take advantage of a social welfare state, they were being transported and housed at British expense to form military units to fight for their own countries with the hope of eventually returning to Poland. Iran was also making these decisions under the occupation of the USSR and British governments. I don't see much of an analogy at all between these events.
15
Piece of Konstanty Gebert is not just opinionated, it's follows flawed logic and also distorts reality to the point when it begs for call it a lie.
Poles never migrated to Iran nor Iranian government had anything to say about it because it was under joint Soviet-British control. About 120k people, most of them captive soldiers released by Soviet Union thanks to Sikorski-Majski Pact in 1941 were moved through southern Russia and Iran to territories controlled by the UK. Soldiers formed two divisions and were attached to British Army. They were allowed to re-settle in the UK after 1945 when Poland was fully traded to Soviet Union in Jalta Conference in 1944.
Comparing plight of captive soldiers and families subjected to totalitarian regime of Soviet Union and released thanks to major political pact with wave of economic and political migrants that was not caused by Poland or any other European state is revolting.
Poles never migrated to Iran nor Iranian government had anything to say about it because it was under joint Soviet-British control. About 120k people, most of them captive soldiers released by Soviet Union thanks to Sikorski-Majski Pact in 1941 were moved through southern Russia and Iran to territories controlled by the UK. Soldiers formed two divisions and were attached to British Army. They were allowed to re-settle in the UK after 1945 when Poland was fully traded to Soviet Union in Jalta Conference in 1944.
Comparing plight of captive soldiers and families subjected to totalitarian regime of Soviet Union and released thanks to major political pact with wave of economic and political migrants that was not caused by Poland or any other European state is revolting.
13
Coming Saturday there were planned 2 demonstrations in Warsaw (at 4pm, about a mile apart in the city center). One supporting sheltering the refugees, the other against. Tens of thousands of people declared participation.
Different members of my extended family planned to join different demonstrations. This summarizes the problem we face here.
One may justly blame immigration opponents for forgetting how millions of Polish refugees, over centuries, were received in other countries.
One may justly blame blind-enthusiastic proponents of taking refugees in, for being irresponsible about many costs and possible dangerous downsides.
We are blindsided (as a society) with the current crisis. Just now, it took a lot of internal discussion to overcome latent anti-Ukrainian biases. Ukrainians and Poles had been busy murdering each other (you think ISIS holds monopoly on grisly things?) by tens of thousands, within living memory. Today, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians live and work in Poland (at least part-time), welcome. Poles are welcome in Ukraine.
You will hear many divergent voices coming out of Poland concerning the current refugee crisis. We have to talk it over here.
PS. The anti-immigration demonstration had been banned I hear. Not good either.
Different members of my extended family planned to join different demonstrations. This summarizes the problem we face here.
One may justly blame immigration opponents for forgetting how millions of Polish refugees, over centuries, were received in other countries.
One may justly blame blind-enthusiastic proponents of taking refugees in, for being irresponsible about many costs and possible dangerous downsides.
We are blindsided (as a society) with the current crisis. Just now, it took a lot of internal discussion to overcome latent anti-Ukrainian biases. Ukrainians and Poles had been busy murdering each other (you think ISIS holds monopoly on grisly things?) by tens of thousands, within living memory. Today, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians live and work in Poland (at least part-time), welcome. Poles are welcome in Ukraine.
You will hear many divergent voices coming out of Poland concerning the current refugee crisis. We have to talk it over here.
PS. The anti-immigration demonstration had been banned I hear. Not good either.
8
Interesting to have so many editorials and opinion pieces as to what Europe should do with refugees, coming from one of the countries most responsible for creating warfare and instability in the Middle East -- the United States. Also interesting that another major source for funding of instability, Saudi Arabia, has no interest in accepting any of these people.
14
Not all cultures are the same and trying to force different cultures to live together does not work. A few years ago the Prime Minister of Germany admitted multi-cultural society had failed in Germany. A country is united around it's language, customs and culture.
11
Not an objective article. Some facts:
- EU does not have any regulations to control the migration. People are forced to accept the fact that thousends of the refugees get in to EU countires without any control who they are and why they came. Going this way, the author should demand from US to open the borders and accept all immigrants.
- The economy od Poland is different than in Germany, France, UK. Expecting Poland to participate heavily in the emigration absorbtion is unfair.
- Poland never said no to this problem., just wants to do this in a way that is securing the refugees and the citizens of Poland.
- 95% of the refugees are economic emigrants, who want to benefit from EU social. They do not want to stay in the countires other than Germany
- People in Poland remember the past and the time others were helping them, but the help was to people who stayed in the country. Emigrants were going through restrictive control before they were granted right to stay. This is not happening now.
The author writes about Poland being a "problematic" country. No word about Israel openly saying NO to this emigrants. Same with US who wish Europe good luck to solve the problem, but not going to participate at all. Poland already accepted more emigrants from Siria than US.
Summarising, the discussion in Poland is just a normal discussion for such big problem and what people need is regulations similar to US ones to stop uncontrolled economic migrataion.
- EU does not have any regulations to control the migration. People are forced to accept the fact that thousends of the refugees get in to EU countires without any control who they are and why they came. Going this way, the author should demand from US to open the borders and accept all immigrants.
- The economy od Poland is different than in Germany, France, UK. Expecting Poland to participate heavily in the emigration absorbtion is unfair.
- Poland never said no to this problem., just wants to do this in a way that is securing the refugees and the citizens of Poland.
- 95% of the refugees are economic emigrants, who want to benefit from EU social. They do not want to stay in the countires other than Germany
- People in Poland remember the past and the time others were helping them, but the help was to people who stayed in the country. Emigrants were going through restrictive control before they were granted right to stay. This is not happening now.
The author writes about Poland being a "problematic" country. No word about Israel openly saying NO to this emigrants. Same with US who wish Europe good luck to solve the problem, but not going to participate at all. Poland already accepted more emigrants from Siria than US.
Summarising, the discussion in Poland is just a normal discussion for such big problem and what people need is regulations similar to US ones to stop uncontrolled economic migrataion.
13
Why only Poland is mentioned in the title? and this is not the only country in Europe that dosen't want to be fluded with emigrants that don't have any will to assimilate, work or contribute in any other way for the country that they wan't to go to. Did any of you people ever wonder why the emigrants want to go only to Germany and Scandinavian countries ? cause in those countries they got very high level of social benefits. In Poland even if you are honest hard working men it's not easy to live and you have to count money month-to-month. So I don't think that those emigrants would like to live in Poland, especially that two men brought to Poland from Syria already tried to pass the border and go to the Germany. Don't get me wrong I got nothing against helping people, but people that are really in need and are willing to work to change their situation. Not to people that want to live only form social help, so from money that other people work for. Plus it is quiet hard to emigrate to US cause you got quiet strict rules of taking people to your country and it's good in my opinion, but from the other hand how can you expect European countries to take in all the refugess in without any rules ? PS sorry for mistakes English is not my first languge.
8
Well there are not enough jobs over there even for local people so I can understand the reluctance of the Poles to accept so many refugees.
7
Europeans are a dying breed and assimilating other peoples accelerates this process If an indigenous native people in (let's say) South America faced extinction everyone would be all upset by this. The uniqueness and character of the various European races should also be preserved for posterity. These people should be found homes in places like Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Egypt etc.
5
I do not have a vote on this matter, but should I ever have one, I will vote to remove all US troops and jets out of Poland. I suspect the next wave of immigrants will likely be from someplace east, and not south, of your border. I hear there is some bare chested dude who rides horses with an eye on you. When he shows up at the door, don't come calling.
Kalidan
Kalidan
2
I have a Polish husband and have frequently visited Poland over the past 10 years, including during the summer when the refugee crisis was at its height. Considering the vastly different opinions between West and East on this issue, I asked a number of Polish friends "Why all this hostility to refugees". The answer I kept getting: "We Poles have either lived for some time in the West or have family members who live in the West. When we see what their cities have become as a result of a failed immigration policy over the past 30 years (London, Paris, Munich, Koln often being mentioned), we don't want our cities to become that way."
Polish society, while noticeably poorer than Western European countries in terms of per capita income, has no ghettos comparable to what you see in Paris, Marseille, Lyon, etc. It also has none of the ethnic tensions that currently typify the U.K., France, Sweden, the Netherlands, etc. Are Poles afraid their society will change as a result of a mass influx of refugees? Are they really unjustified in thinking that way?
That you don't even bother to report on this concern shows this Op-Ed serves only your political goals. Your reference in the article to "some anonymous posts recommending Aushwitz be reopened" is utterly shameless and reveals your bad intentions. It is a cheap attack on a country that suffered immersurably during the war and has been spending years trying to debunk the myth that somehow Poland was responsible for the holocaust.
Polish society, while noticeably poorer than Western European countries in terms of per capita income, has no ghettos comparable to what you see in Paris, Marseille, Lyon, etc. It also has none of the ethnic tensions that currently typify the U.K., France, Sweden, the Netherlands, etc. Are Poles afraid their society will change as a result of a mass influx of refugees? Are they really unjustified in thinking that way?
That you don't even bother to report on this concern shows this Op-Ed serves only your political goals. Your reference in the article to "some anonymous posts recommending Aushwitz be reopened" is utterly shameless and reveals your bad intentions. It is a cheap attack on a country that suffered immersurably during the war and has been spending years trying to debunk the myth that somehow Poland was responsible for the holocaust.
16
It doesn't matter if Poland is reluctant to take in any migrants or not - they won't go there anyways. Hungary went out of her way to keep them there. They won't stay. I don't understand why the EU's eastern states don't simply invite all of the migrants and get on the moral high horse. No one will ever call their bluff! Very few migrants will go to any EU state that is not Germany or Sweden (or UK). Even Denmark seems rather undesirable.
Perhaps the migrants like the weather in Germany and Sweden. Not so much in Poland. It's all so complicated.
Perhaps the migrants like the weather in Germany and Sweden. Not so much in Poland. It's all so complicated.
5
These good "Christians" who only want to accept "people like us" should perhaps remember that Joseph and Mary were, in their own way, refugees fleeing Bethlehem into Egypt to save their son from Herod. What if the Egyptians had refused them the way the Eastern Europeans are refusing Muslims? They might easily have been found dead on a beach, too.
There is nothing Christian at all in the Eastern European xenophobia.
There is nothing Christian at all in the Eastern European xenophobia.
5
If you have seen some of the uncensored pictures coming out of Syria after an indiscriminate barreling bombing of a civilian population by the Syrian government (unbearable to see so many children slaughtered) you will understand these people's motivation to flee.
The neighboring countries (have absorbed millions of refugees but they live in camps of the most crude and threadbare necessity or outside the camps in abject poverty.
The rest of the world could have provided abundant resources to these people. so that their temporary dislocation was something other than a slow motion nightmare. They haven't.
As it is only the refugees who can produce the money to pay the traffickers get out of that dire situation. Those who are totally poverty stricken cannot afford even to flee.
We do not adequately help these people in their hour of desperate need and then wonder why they seek to escape those horrid conditions.
The EU and the US have combined economies of $35 trillion dollars annually.
The neighboring countries (have absorbed millions of refugees but they live in camps of the most crude and threadbare necessity or outside the camps in abject poverty.
The rest of the world could have provided abundant resources to these people. so that their temporary dislocation was something other than a slow motion nightmare. They haven't.
As it is only the refugees who can produce the money to pay the traffickers get out of that dire situation. Those who are totally poverty stricken cannot afford even to flee.
We do not adequately help these people in their hour of desperate need and then wonder why they seek to escape those horrid conditions.
The EU and the US have combined economies of $35 trillion dollars annually.
4
Why do we not see NY Times editorials demanding the United States takes in a proportional amount of refugees (which would be a couple of million)? why are you happy to moralise about European nations doing more?
7
Polish have to build up a new renaissance in it's own society, after to forge a working class unity need to build up a new cultural class, destroyed during the WWII.
2
Germany now sits safe and protected, with Poland being the front-line NATO state to its east. Poland, with a per capita income less than half of Germany, spends a bigger part of its economy on military defense, which also benefits Germany. If Germany, as a result of this, is now so rich that it can accomnodate the poor of the world, then good for it, but Poland, torn apart during the world wars by Germany and Russia, and subjected to 40 years of communism after being abandoned at the end of a war Germany started, should not be asked to fund or finance naive German or Swedish notions.
And remember, Poland is poorer than Greece, and colder. None of these Asian or African migrants want to end up in Poland, or they would have stayed in Greece, a country they crossed.
And remember, Poland is poorer than Greece, and colder. None of these Asian or African migrants want to end up in Poland, or they would have stayed in Greece, a country they crossed.
12
Poland - as well as other East European countries like Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia -only want to take in refugees "who are like us".
To be honest, I was always against the expansion of Europe from the original Common Market and was warning that countries like Greece and Poland and the others should never have been admitted into the European Union - specifically because THEY are not like Western Europe - as their lack of charity now shows. Their highly conservative attitudes, be it towards gay rights or ANYONE "different" makes them a continual drag on the originally open and advanced attitudes of Europe before it became the fractious and unwieldy Union we know today.
I love Prague, would love to go back as well as visit Budapest and other Eastern European countries - but as long as they continue with their "Christians only" policies towards refugees, I hereby call for a boycott of these countries by all tourists who, like myself, find their "generosity" to be too sectarian, and, in fact, anything but Christian! Shame on them all!
To be honest, I was always against the expansion of Europe from the original Common Market and was warning that countries like Greece and Poland and the others should never have been admitted into the European Union - specifically because THEY are not like Western Europe - as their lack of charity now shows. Their highly conservative attitudes, be it towards gay rights or ANYONE "different" makes them a continual drag on the originally open and advanced attitudes of Europe before it became the fractious and unwieldy Union we know today.
I love Prague, would love to go back as well as visit Budapest and other Eastern European countries - but as long as they continue with their "Christians only" policies towards refugees, I hereby call for a boycott of these countries by all tourists who, like myself, find their "generosity" to be too sectarian, and, in fact, anything but Christian! Shame on them all!
2
The similarities between most of the "cultural purity" comments here and what might have been uttered in Germany in the 30's or 40's is striking.
There is a legitimate issue of integration. The United States has over 2 million Muslim citizens. They are integrated into the United States.
There is a legitimate issue of integration. The United States has over 2 million Muslim citizens. They are integrated into the United States.
5
And what about the importance of Lipka Tatars in Poland's military and aristocratic heritage? Even though Sobieski defeated the Ottomans at the gates of Vienna in the 17th century, the Ottoman Empire had always been a steadfast ally of the Polish people, even evoking Poland's absent seat during the gathering of ambassadors at the Sublime Porte. 'Absent', since Poland was wiped off the map of Europe for more than a century after it got partitioned off between the Russian Empire and Prussia. In this light, the Poles seem to suffer from selective cultural amnesia regarding the historical reality of Islam during various phases of their history--- there had even been a Tatar military brigade during the Second World War.
3
How can the Polish defense of Austira 400 years ago have anything to do with Syrian's escaping a war today?
Poland along with a couple of other countries are doing what sovereign nation ought to do- decide for themselves who, what , where, and how and if they want people from other countries in their respected territory. It is and should be that simple, unless of course you're not dealing with reality, like the far left progressives, the pseudo religious crowd from either the far right or left, a.k.a. "the bleeding heart fools", who think they will gain brownie points with their creator and earn a closer spot at their creator's side when they die. Fools have no place in dictating policy of a country, never mind a whole slew of countries. We need more countries like Poland, not Germany..
11
Once a country has signed on to the charter of United Nations and joined the European Union you are obligated to abide by the rules. That applies to any civilized country. Maybe with the exception of Russia that will stir up trouble any where they can.
Europe should be very careful in accepting refugees from Muslim countries IMO. These people aren't coming because they believe in tolerance or respect for European culture. Some of them cheered the 911 bombings and hold the West responsible for their plight. There should be some modicum of understanding that they will try to make an effort to fit in. And, ideally should be kept in camps in Muslim countries until their chances of adapting can be ascertained.
9
There are no jobs here in southern Poland (Silesia), so where are these people going to work in order to integrate into Polish society? You can't lump all of "Europe" together when countries like Poland, Slovakia, and Hungary don't have the economic infrastructure to support new migrants. 2 million Poles have left for Western Europe for a reason and that is the dearth of available jobs here at home.
18
i expect to see the same topic on why the middle east is refusing to take in any..
13
...and, for God's sake, why isn't Russia taking in the majority of the migrants, since, IMHO, Russia is one of the main culprits in the disaster presently occuring in Syria. I have heard so many in these columns blame various nations for their lack of compassion to the migrants, but not once have I run across anyone castigating Russia (or, for that matter, China) for their complete lack of empathy for the Syrians!
G-d bless the early pioneers of Zionism who recognized more than 100 years ago that Europe was never going to become a hospitable place for Jews and initiated efforts to provide them with a place where they would be assured of a welcome.
3
There's some talk of the US taking some refugess from Europe. Where's China? What about Japan? How many people are going to Russia? Or many of the other countries in the world that can afford to take at least some refugess?
9
Why isn't Iran taking any refugees? They are Syria's ally and partially responsible for dragging the war out. So they should chip in and take a few hundred thousand. Its a chance for the Iranian Mullahs to demonstrate they're humanitarian.
5
Poland, Hungary, Israel. . . .
Just to say the names is to understand what to expect.
Just to say the names is to understand what to expect.
1
Poland should take more refuges because it is consistent with the tradition of Poles fighting for freedom of others. Regardless of religion.
One correction though: "Iran took in over 100,000 Polish refugees fleeing the Soviet Union". In reality it was 100,000 Polish troops passing through Iran to join Allies to fight Nazi Germany.
One correction though: "Iran took in over 100,000 Polish refugees fleeing the Soviet Union". In reality it was 100,000 Polish troops passing through Iran to join Allies to fight Nazi Germany.
8
As you say, they were Polish troops and they were then fighting with British in Africa then Europe so never stayed in Iran. Current emigrants want to stay in Europe for ever. How you can compare? The cases are very different
Poland wants refugees who share their culture and values and who are willing to assimilate. To be frank that is why Poland and other countries only want Christians. Ultimately, it is up to the Polish people to decide what is best and who they want entering their country. It is not the place of Merkel or anyone else to dictate to Poland or any other country.
19
I have always had a soft spot for Poland especially after the Solidarnosc movement in Gdansk started the end of the Soviet Union.
You have a choice to be brave and honorable by facing your fears of allowing new people whom you do not understand in and work at learning to live with people different from yourselves,
Or to reinvigorate the fear & xenophobia that the Soviets based their system on and kept so many millions of people in so many countries in thrall by for 45 years.
You have a choice to be brave and honorable by facing your fears of allowing new people whom you do not understand in and work at learning to live with people different from yourselves,
Or to reinvigorate the fear & xenophobia that the Soviets based their system on and kept so many millions of people in so many countries in thrall by for 45 years.
1
Maybe Poland will take refugees, once the US opens its borders to Poles by no longer requiring visas from them?
11
Isn't it ironic that on the same day the New York Times publishes several articles flat out stating that Europeans who associate Muslim immigration with terrorism are racist and baffling creatures, this same newspaper publishes articles detailing a man sentenced in New Jersey for attempting to join ISIS, along with an article detailing the trouble in Minneapolis with Somali immigrants joining ISIS (yet the Somali community's leaders still mistrust our government)?
Who are you going to believe: the ceaseless propaganda of the Times or your lying eyes?
Who are you going to believe: the ceaseless propaganda of the Times or your lying eyes?
13
I find a few interesting features regarding the mass migration of "Refugees" to Europe.
1. Why are there so many young, single men? It would seem they would stay and fight for their countries. Perhaps they're members of radical Islamic groups.
2. It seems that all the immigrants only want to go to countries where they get free money every month. Free clothing, free education, free housing, and free medical care. Britain gives (in Euros) 36.95 person, week. Germany - 143 adult, month. Sweden - 60 to 225 adult, month. France - 340.50 adult, month. Italy - food and medicine (few asylum seekers want to stay in Italy). Austria - 40 person, month. Romania - .67 adult, day ( again, very few asylum seekers stay in Romania). Denmark gives over 800 adult, month, but they're cutting back because they're overwhelmed by "refugees"
Countries refugees choose not to stay include Italy, Hungary, Serbia, Macedonia, and Greece. Most of the Arab countries will not accep refugees. This is strange because those countries and the refugees, share similar culture and religion.
My last point regards the young boy found on the beach in Turkey. How could a healthy young man, who knew how to swim, not be able to save his wife and two small children when they had an overturned boat on which to grasp?
There is something radically wrong about this situation. Are they truly refugees or simply economic immigrants copying the tactics of the illegals invading the southern border of the United States?
1. Why are there so many young, single men? It would seem they would stay and fight for their countries. Perhaps they're members of radical Islamic groups.
2. It seems that all the immigrants only want to go to countries where they get free money every month. Free clothing, free education, free housing, and free medical care. Britain gives (in Euros) 36.95 person, week. Germany - 143 adult, month. Sweden - 60 to 225 adult, month. France - 340.50 adult, month. Italy - food and medicine (few asylum seekers want to stay in Italy). Austria - 40 person, month. Romania - .67 adult, day ( again, very few asylum seekers stay in Romania). Denmark gives over 800 adult, month, but they're cutting back because they're overwhelmed by "refugees"
Countries refugees choose not to stay include Italy, Hungary, Serbia, Macedonia, and Greece. Most of the Arab countries will not accep refugees. This is strange because those countries and the refugees, share similar culture and religion.
My last point regards the young boy found on the beach in Turkey. How could a healthy young man, who knew how to swim, not be able to save his wife and two small children when they had an overturned boat on which to grasp?
There is something radically wrong about this situation. Are they truly refugees or simply economic immigrants copying the tactics of the illegals invading the southern border of the United States?
22
Others have asked questions about the father of the young boy who drowned. When I first read the story I wondered how the father survived when his children and wife drowned. If I was three years old my father would have sacrifice himself to save me. Had he not been able to save me he likely would have died with me rather then coming back without me.
Ed Little: "How could a healthy young man, who knew how to swim, not be able to save..." - this went too far. Had you ever been involved in boat capsizing accident? I had, several times (lake races), and this is why I ALWAYS require children to wear life-jackets when things get rougher, and I have no illusion about my ability to save a kid, in rough water. And I had been a member of a University swimming team once.
After Lech Walesa's movement to forge a working class unity that ultimately led to national consolidation , Poland perhaps badly needs one more solidarity movement.; this time on the refugee front to forge European unity.
5
It is no coincidence that many of the Syrian migrants choose either Germany or Sweden, for the quality of life and the more generous social benefits. From my understanding, a true refugee is happy to be in the country in which he first finds himself, away from conflict.
It has also been noted by many other commenters the high proportion of young military age Muslim men, how fit many appear, well fed and nicely clothed.
Years ago, not having yet completed college, my girlfriend and I applied for citizenship to Canada. We received a polite letter of refusal, stating that Canada was looking for particular types of applicants with a certain level of education and certain skilled and higher level jobs which needed to be filled. We accepted the decision, though disappointed, it was not our expectation to wander around the boundaries, then enter Canada and expect to be accepted into Canadian society.
There seems a certain arrogance and sense of entitlement among many of the Syrian migrants, as if it is just their right to come and to settle in any country of their choosing. Eventually the money tap, and the tap of good will, will start to dry up as the numbers of migrants coming shows no sign of abating.
It has also been noted by many other commenters the high proportion of young military age Muslim men, how fit many appear, well fed and nicely clothed.
Years ago, not having yet completed college, my girlfriend and I applied for citizenship to Canada. We received a polite letter of refusal, stating that Canada was looking for particular types of applicants with a certain level of education and certain skilled and higher level jobs which needed to be filled. We accepted the decision, though disappointed, it was not our expectation to wander around the boundaries, then enter Canada and expect to be accepted into Canadian society.
There seems a certain arrogance and sense of entitlement among many of the Syrian migrants, as if it is just their right to come and to settle in any country of their choosing. Eventually the money tap, and the tap of good will, will start to dry up as the numbers of migrants coming shows no sign of abating.
43
I'm assuming you and your girlfriend weren't refugees. I'm also assuming the Syrian refugees are looking for more than just a change of scenery. Just out of curiosity, how did you come to the conclusion that they seem to be arrogant and entitled? Do they need to prostate themselves and apologize profusely before you'll accept that they might be worthy of your consideration?
They are classed as refugees because they are from a war torn country. There are also people from Afghanistan and Eritrea and even Iran.
The refugees are not fools. They know where they can have a good chance of living a decent life.
Asylum for refugees is supposed to be temporary only until they are able to return to the country when conditions become better. For Syria, due to the level of destruction and continued warring factions, that may be a decade or more in all probability.
Even if 1 million refugees escape into Europe that is only 1/500th of the population of the EU (500 million).
I understand the hostility towards Muslims due to the failure of their integration into some areas. But it takes 2 to tango and the countries themselves share some part of the failure. The other is the extrapolation of a few Islamist terrorists onto the entire Muslim world.
The refugees are not fools. They know where they can have a good chance of living a decent life.
Asylum for refugees is supposed to be temporary only until they are able to return to the country when conditions become better. For Syria, due to the level of destruction and continued warring factions, that may be a decade or more in all probability.
Even if 1 million refugees escape into Europe that is only 1/500th of the population of the EU (500 million).
I understand the hostility towards Muslims due to the failure of their integration into some areas. But it takes 2 to tango and the countries themselves share some part of the failure. The other is the extrapolation of a few Islamist terrorists onto the entire Muslim world.
What can be more arrogant than after having found refuge in Turkey from war and persecution these migrants demand to be let into Germany "because there is free houses, jobs and welfare"?
What is wrong with the Poles wanting to help people whose culture, religion, and values are more like that of other Poles? They have a choice as to which people they wish to take in and help. Most people wish to help people who are more like themselves, however they may define that. Trying to force countries such as Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, etc into accepting people they don't want is wrong. I haven't seen the US accepting a fate decided by others lately. We don't allow other countries tell us which migrants to accept and which ones not to accept. Does sovereignty mean nothing now?
49
@bart,
Ahem we accept everyone, even if the get in illegally. It is only some of our fellow citizens who hate foreigner's and blame them for things they never did. The same people who imagine they were always American and their ancestors had immaculate arrivals in here.
Ahem we accept everyone, even if the get in illegally. It is only some of our fellow citizens who hate foreigner's and blame them for things they never did. The same people who imagine they were always American and their ancestors had immaculate arrivals in here.
1
I never lived in Poland, but am familiar with that area.
Poles, Czechs, Magyars (Hungarians), Slovaks, Ukrainians, Moldovans and "Balts" (Lithuanians, Estonians, Latvians and Finns) share a common experience: the struggle -- for many centuries -- to maintain their unique languages, culture and customs against invaders (Russians, Germans, Turks) occupying their territory and ruling over them. Their history is dominated by resistance to forced assimilation and rejection of foreign influences; and martyrdom. Theirs is a history soaked in the blood of murdered ancestors; especially during the just-departed 20th century. Resistance to vassalage and rejection of outsiders is deeply ingrained in the nationalistic spirit.
Most see the moral problem posed by the refugees. Many aren't unmoved by their plight. But they also believe that many refugees, if granted temporary asylum, might stay. It's in the nature of such things. They don't want that.
Poles, Czechs, Magyars (Hungarians), Slovaks, Ukrainians, Moldovans and "Balts" (Lithuanians, Estonians, Latvians and Finns) share a common experience: the struggle -- for many centuries -- to maintain their unique languages, culture and customs against invaders (Russians, Germans, Turks) occupying their territory and ruling over them. Their history is dominated by resistance to forced assimilation and rejection of foreign influences; and martyrdom. Theirs is a history soaked in the blood of murdered ancestors; especially during the just-departed 20th century. Resistance to vassalage and rejection of outsiders is deeply ingrained in the nationalistic spirit.
Most see the moral problem posed by the refugees. Many aren't unmoved by their plight. But they also believe that many refugees, if granted temporary asylum, might stay. It's in the nature of such things. They don't want that.
6
Yes, and it was in this same spirit of cultural homogeneity that Poland expelled most of its remaining Jews in 1968 (after 3 million were killed in the Holocaust, with Polish complicity). They are trying to embrace a broader definition of anti-Semitism by also hating Arabs.
1
With Poland's sterling record concerning minorities--it's wonderful treatment of its Jews--Muslims make want to think twice before settling there, even if they are accepted.
18
I am a Polish born Jew Born in Wroclaw in 1955 and Emigrated to Israel in 1965.. Poland was for 1000 years the better destination for European Jews. It was not perfect but was head and shoulders better than the rest, that is why there were over 3 million of my people there at the break of WW2. Was there violence and antisemitism? Yes. Was there also Sacrifice and Compassion by many Poles at the risk of their life? Yes. Learn your History. To this date there is a Muslim Tartar (Like Ghengis Khan) Population in Poland resident for Hundreds of Years.
9
Amazing stuff. Poland was ultimately relieved of its Soviet oppressor, and then promptly goes back to being the next oppressor. The EU strongly needs to enforce its rules here. The entire continent is being overwhelmed and one separate country does not get to play to its religious, cultural or any other roots to pretend that it has special issues that prevents it from obeying those rules and asking for special consideration. Either you are in the EU, or you are not (said a Norwegian whose population happily decided against it twice).
4
"and then promptly goes back to being the next oppressor"
Who is being oppressed in Poland?
Who is being oppressed in Poland?
6
One should remember what happened after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of Communism after more than 40 years in Eastern Europe. Within weeks, in countries such as Poland and Lithuania, people were once again going right back to their xenophobic and blinkered traditional attitudes by stating that all their present problems were "because of the Jews". Now they are against letting in refugees who are Muslim.
Will these people never learn the true meaning of their faith? Pope Francis should make a point of calling them to order!
Will these people never learn the true meaning of their faith? Pope Francis should make a point of calling them to order!
1
It is Germany that broke the rules by inviting migrants who had already crossed one EU country, Greece, to traipse across the entire continent.
Poland has been run over more times than just about any other country in Europe. They are just emerging out of the shadow of the Cold War and the EU wants them to admit a flood of people who share nothing with them.
I do not blame them. Culture is important and worth preserving. Why should the Poles let their culture be drowned out by high birthrate illegal migrants who do not share language, culture, religion, political outlook, commitment to a secular democracy...
I do not blame them. Culture is important and worth preserving. Why should the Poles let their culture be drowned out by high birthrate illegal migrants who do not share language, culture, religion, political outlook, commitment to a secular democracy...
42
The author is the head of the Jewish community in Poland. His views on the treatment of refugee cultures are tied to his views of the Polish treatment of the Jews. Mr. Gebert has a well-known agenda and the Times has an obligation to tell its readers of his bent. That is not captured by reference to his association with Solidarity.
33
michjas: "Mr. Gebert has a well-known agenda"??? Looks like in Phoenix people have some knowledge about Polish society which is absent here in Warsaw, maybe you would share the specifics?
Kostek Gebert is (from little I know) a Jewish-Polish person who had worked since at least early 1980ties (when I brushed with him at some party) on revival of Jewish life and cultural identity among Poles with Jewish roots. At the same time I was inviting anybody who would listen to join various activities at Warsaw's St. Anne Catholic church, he was inviting people for Sabbath diners. These were times when people exploded with activity, luckily this continues today.
Solidarity was a movement which joined much of (quite diverse) Polish society around a single goal - self-governance, and certainly Kostek Gebert was in that movement.
Kostek Gebert is (from little I know) a Jewish-Polish person who had worked since at least early 1980ties (when I brushed with him at some party) on revival of Jewish life and cultural identity among Poles with Jewish roots. At the same time I was inviting anybody who would listen to join various activities at Warsaw's St. Anne Catholic church, he was inviting people for Sabbath diners. These were times when people exploded with activity, luckily this continues today.
Solidarity was a movement which joined much of (quite diverse) Polish society around a single goal - self-governance, and certainly Kostek Gebert was in that movement.
Furthermore, Konstanty Gebert is the son of Bolesław Konstanty "Bill" Gebert (1895 – 1986) who was a top Communist Party official, remembered as one of the organization's top Polish-language speaking leaders. He was a Soviet agent during the years of World War II and was an official of the Polish Communist government after the war. Gebert immigrated from Poland to the United States prior to the Russian Revolution and found work as a miner. He was an active member of the Socialist Party of America, was active in the Left Wing Section of the Socialist Party and a founding member of the Communist Party of America (CPA)
I don't know why Poland is singled out here. Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary, and Bulgaria made the same decision - accept only non-Muslim refugees (such as Christians and Yazidis who are the most suffering victims of this war)
22
Poland should remember its agresssion against the Ottoman state at Vienna in the late 1600s and permit Muslims in.
1
Actually, it was polish troops that helped europe from being overrun by ottoman muslim troops. Stick the historical facts please.
7
You mean when they defended Europe by stopping the Ottomans from taking Vienna and gaining a foothold for the rest of Europe?
8
Are You Serious?
Poland saved Europe from Turkish Muslim Aggression led by Kara Mustafa thus stemming the Muslim tide into Europe.
Please note that without the involvement of Jan Sobieski most Europeans today will be reciting their prayers to Allah 5 times a day, Butthen maybe you like that reality.
The Austrians, Geramns and the French were certainly very quick in forgetting.
Poland saved Europe from Turkish Muslim Aggression led by Kara Mustafa thus stemming the Muslim tide into Europe.
Please note that without the involvement of Jan Sobieski most Europeans today will be reciting their prayers to Allah 5 times a day, Butthen maybe you like that reality.
The Austrians, Geramns and the French were certainly very quick in forgetting.
7
Well, Polish people know pretty well that the religious allegiance is first. Shame on them.
So, it becomes more and more clear that religion is the main source of conflict between cultures and nations. Without it, would Poland say no? Would there even be a ISIS? Religion causes more difficulties than it solves problems.
14
ejzin, it is not religion in and of itself. Ideologies are the most destructive creation of the human mind. It matters not if the ideology is religious, political or cultural. Ideology requires adherence to dogma and the followers to be cult-like. Ideologies cater to and create extremists by their nature. They tend to be without fact for the most part. They require high emotional input and output. True believers are not critical thinkers and their lack of broad literacy abets their narrow frame of thought. Emotion crowds out common sense assuming any exists. Leaders of ideologies demagogue for power and the large purse that comes with it. Control of other people is a major goal so there is no hesitancy to manipulate with irrationalities. So yes, the world’s 4,300 organized religions causes more difficulties, but so does the Tea Party and the GOP right wing. Propaganda is of great help and why ideologies tend to purchase media to distribute the required dogma. Fox's contract performers play believable emotional characters and the aim of their presentations is to generate hatred for anyone who is not a true believer. That is why they have been so good at dividing Americans against one another when considering politics and social issues like abortion and gay marriage. That pattern is repeated in every country of the world including Poland. It is a human condition and why humans are so primitive.
3
The reason Poland say yes to christians is that they are being massively killed by ISI and they need immediate help. All the rest, Poland says no as it needs to be controlled: 95% of the immigrants are economy emigrants, islamic, with no danger to their lives. They all want to go to Germany or eventually any other rich countires, not to Poland, Czech etc. Polish people expects that before accepting any number, the people are verified and only the ones with life in danger get asylum. Like US does. So it's not about religion, at least not from Poland side, but if you listen to ISIS, they openly say, many of the "immigrants" are ISIS. Worth to think of it before blindli accepting all.
2
Dwight--Very good points. Thanks for your comment.
“Turning a blind eye to poor and helpless people, that is not Europe,” said Mr. Juncker, a former prime minister of Luxembourg. Coming against the backdrop of anti-immigrant sentiment in countries like Hungary, which is building a 110-mile fence on its border with Serbia to try to keep migrants out, Mr. Juncker appealed to Europeans in personal terms.
“Let us be clear and honest with our often-worried citizens,” Mr. Juncker said, pointing to the root causes of the crisis. “As long as there is war in Syria and terror in Libya and Israeli occupation in Palestine, the refugee crisis will not simply go away.”
“Let us be clear and honest with our often-worried citizens,” Mr. Juncker said, pointing to the root causes of the crisis. “As long as there is war in Syria and terror in Libya and Israeli occupation in Palestine, the refugee crisis will not simply go away.”
4
...or to try to lead the migrants through checkpoints.
2
Those 100,000 refugees in Iran were temporary. Many were fighting men, part of Ander's (Polish) Army, who were the 4th wave in taking Monte Cassino from the Germans in WWII. The others were women and children who eventually found homes in other countries, such as NZ. My Dad was one of those refugees in Iran temporarily.
26
Mr. Gerbert, is the son of Boleslaw Gebert, AKA Ataman - who headed a Communist spy ring in the United States (vide Venona Papers). Later, after his father returned to Communist Poland, he served as an ambasador for the Communists - wearing top hat and tails.
As the child of the Communist nomenklatura, Mr. Gebert never understood what it was to have to stand in line for a week to purchase a refrigerator or a sofa.
Having lived well under the Communists, he nows lives even better by pontificating (under a pseudonim - which the Times fails to mention - ashamed I guess of Daddy) on the pages of Gazeta Wyborcza and creating a fantasy reality when he speaks in the US - vide a recent lecture at YIVO.
It would have been more interesting and valid - if the NY Times had asked one the Polish Tartar leaders for their opinion on th subject. These Muslims, who have lived in Poland for over 300 years and been among the most loyal of Polish citizens and are respected by all as "one of us" - have expressed concern about such an influx of Muslims from the Levant and further. They do not see them as their 'compatriots and brothers' and express similar concerns to those Poles who are Christian.
Dear NY Times - please do a bit more digging in a search for contirbutors - first Slawomir Sierakowski - a fellow Communist progeny and now Gebert. Really - can't you do any better?
As the child of the Communist nomenklatura, Mr. Gebert never understood what it was to have to stand in line for a week to purchase a refrigerator or a sofa.
Having lived well under the Communists, he nows lives even better by pontificating (under a pseudonim - which the Times fails to mention - ashamed I guess of Daddy) on the pages of Gazeta Wyborcza and creating a fantasy reality when he speaks in the US - vide a recent lecture at YIVO.
It would have been more interesting and valid - if the NY Times had asked one the Polish Tartar leaders for their opinion on th subject. These Muslims, who have lived in Poland for over 300 years and been among the most loyal of Polish citizens and are respected by all as "one of us" - have expressed concern about such an influx of Muslims from the Levant and further. They do not see them as their 'compatriots and brothers' and express similar concerns to those Poles who are Christian.
Dear NY Times - please do a bit more digging in a search for contirbutors - first Slawomir Sierakowski - a fellow Communist progeny and now Gebert. Really - can't you do any better?
52
As to Mr. Gebert's remark that - "During World War II, Iran took in over 100,000 Polish refugees fleeing the Soviet Union." - he manipulates historical fact.
The Polish refugees were individuals who had been either taken prisoner or deported by the USSR when it was an ally of Nazi Germany (Where was Boleslaw Gebert then?)
When Operation Barbarossa started and the Soviets became Allies of Great Britain and the US - a portion of those people were released and some 65,000 joined an independent Polish Army in Russia. As the Soviets tried to manipulate the terms under the which the Army was to serve (i.e. not as a cohesive unit) a decision was made to remove the Polish Army in Russia to the Middle East.
Thus the Polish Army and attendant civilians TRANSITED through Iran - under military orders. Within several months the Army was stationed defending the oil fields of Mosul and Kirkuk - Kurdish lands. The civilians were sent on to South Africa, Rhodesia, Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere.
There was no "taking in' of Polish refugees in Iran.
Perhaps Mr. Gebert is confusing Iran with India where the Maharajah of Nawagar did accept several hundred orphans ......
The Polish refugees were individuals who had been either taken prisoner or deported by the USSR when it was an ally of Nazi Germany (Where was Boleslaw Gebert then?)
When Operation Barbarossa started and the Soviets became Allies of Great Britain and the US - a portion of those people were released and some 65,000 joined an independent Polish Army in Russia. As the Soviets tried to manipulate the terms under the which the Army was to serve (i.e. not as a cohesive unit) a decision was made to remove the Polish Army in Russia to the Middle East.
Thus the Polish Army and attendant civilians TRANSITED through Iran - under military orders. Within several months the Army was stationed defending the oil fields of Mosul and Kirkuk - Kurdish lands. The civilians were sent on to South Africa, Rhodesia, Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere.
There was no "taking in' of Polish refugees in Iran.
Perhaps Mr. Gebert is confusing Iran with India where the Maharajah of Nawagar did accept several hundred orphans ......
39
Poland is a sovereign nation. It should be up to the Polish people to decide this issue - Not outsiders.
58
Perhaps Poland should insist on its complete sovereignty by leaving the E. U. Those nosy outsiders have made Poland's prosperity possible; they might be willing to let the independent minded Poles be independent.
Sorry Maureen but Poland lost a lot of it's sovereignty when it joined the EU. But of course there was a lot of money on offer which blinded Poles to the fact they also signed up to EU values ("free movement of people, capital" etc).
Germany, UK (which took millions of Poles) also all lost that sovereignty. UK had no choice in the matter, and neither does Poland. As the man said, "selectively submitting to the demands of the EU". I have a very strong impression living in Poland that most of the population have n't the faintest idea what the EU is all about. It's not just a free handout.
Germany, UK (which took millions of Poles) also all lost that sovereignty. UK had no choice in the matter, and neither does Poland. As the man said, "selectively submitting to the demands of the EU". I have a very strong impression living in Poland that most of the population have n't the faintest idea what the EU is all about. It's not just a free handout.
In the late 1940's my father, an immigrant from Italy in 1913, sponsored a Polish family fleeing their country in our farm house in Kentucky. I think it's a shame present day Poles cannot see the humanity in doing such a gesture for others in need.
7
That's what people in Poland do now, Poland accepted more Siria refugees than US and compare the size of the countires. Thsi article is very wrong, read more comments to read more. Poland is not saying no, Poland just wants this to be controlled process so only people with life in danger get the help, not everyone. Isn't it a way US does the migration control? This is it, nothing more and before you express your judgement, you better collect more facts and apologieze for wrong judgement.
Emotional reactions are not well thought out. Countries have set up rules for the processing of immigrants. Why should a sudden emotional response disregard the process, especially when the immigrants are so different in culture, religion and language? While the language can be overcome, there has to be some agreement that the immigrants want to melt into the culture and are willing to accommodate other religions, and then go through the process so some sense of order can be arranged.
29
Today seems to be pick on Eastern Europe day. Poland actually is lending some help, though being choosy by harboring just Christian refugees. Which is a whole lot more than can be said of Syria's Arab neighbors. Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Kuwait, all within a day's drive of Damascus. They are taking zero refugees, of any faith, including Islamic. Yet the criticism is on Poland - 2,200 miles away, by land and sea. What is going on here?
69
Denny--Hear, hear!
4
Thank you sir.. Exactly what I was going to post.
5
Yet Jordan has also taken in tens of thousands of refugees, including Christians; in fact, Jordan not only has built housing for these refugees, but more precisely - in the context of your post - they have also built Churches for the Christians among them!
When European Christian countries can show such empathy and "élégance d'esprit" - then they can start pointing fingers! Can you imagine the good "Christian" Europeans building mosques to help their refugees feel at home? Ha! That'll be the day!
When European Christian countries can show such empathy and "élégance d'esprit" - then they can start pointing fingers! Can you imagine the good "Christian" Europeans building mosques to help their refugees feel at home? Ha! That'll be the day!
1
The author of this should prove her/his moral superiority by volunteering to pay a 50% tax on income, and a 90% upper marginal rate on income above $100,000 in order to pay for the cost of 'welcoming' and the alleged infinite obligation to "charity' that is usually jammed down the throats of, taken out of the hides of the working and middle classes as soon as the media cameras and pundits turn away from the latest "refugee" or "migrant" crisis. The author should also be willing to jam 20 migrants into his house or apartment, and outlaw private and religions schools so their pampered children have to run the gauntlet of jealous immigrant children bullies, and languish in classes dumbed down two grade levels. But no, elitist egoaltruism in our society has always been possible for our 1% can extract the slave-wage benefits out of ever more floods of immigrants and pass the costs and damages of them off on to the "ignorant" racist mobs of the common people.
41
Poland was certainly part of the "coalition of the willing" as the Bush administration launched a war of aggression against Iraq. They not only supported the war but sent troops to help inflict "shock and awe" on the Iraqi people. They certainly didn't oppose the US occupation and were committed to the hilt as the US slowly dismembered the Iraqi state and produced this flow of refugees.
Poland of all countries should remember what wars of aggression do. They know what happens when a country is invaded and occupied. They know what it's like to have national boarders erased by warfare. And as a predominately Catholic country they should be responsive to the Pope's call for mercy and compassion, not fences and excuses. Poland's responsibility is real, direct, current and historical. But so far their leaders lack the moral conviction to lead rather than follow the current climate of fear and distrust.
Poland of all countries should remember what wars of aggression do. They know what happens when a country is invaded and occupied. They know what it's like to have national boarders erased by warfare. And as a predominately Catholic country they should be responsive to the Pope's call for mercy and compassion, not fences and excuses. Poland's responsibility is real, direct, current and historical. But so far their leaders lack the moral conviction to lead rather than follow the current climate of fear and distrust.
30
Good for Poland. Whats wrong with wanting to preserve Poland's culture? Warsaw has the right to observe the disaster of Muslim immigration elsewhere in Europe and reject it. They've seen the high crime Arab neighborhoods and terrorist incidents brought by Arab migrants to France, the UK, and other European countries. They don't want to spend billions on welfare for migrants who will fail to assimilate, have high unemployment, and who want to retain an religiously extreme conservative culture.
63
How about they help preserve other cultures and not be hypocritical. If they want to preserve Polish culture, they should incentivize their fellow Poles to stay in Poland. One of the things that really annoyed me as a tourist in England was going into British pubs/tea houses and finding that all the staff was Polish. I went for the cultural experience--to be surrounded by something quintessential British, and instead I ended up in Poland. I'd happily go to Poland for the Polish experience--I lived in Czechoslovakia for a few years in the early 90s and loved Eastern Europe (and my Czech apparently has a Polish accent). I would be equally disappointed if Poland or the Czech Republic were overwhelmed by Americans. And I understand the need to find work wherever it can be found, so I don't begrudge the Poles' coming to the UK for something better. But it OUGHT to cause Poland a bit of introspection.
There's no way the British would ever be allowed to prevent Poles, as E.U. citizens, from working wherever they want in the E.U., even to "protect British culture." So if Poland wants to stay in the E.U. and continue benefiting from that membership, it needs to give the same as it receives.
There's no way the British would ever be allowed to prevent Poles, as E.U. citizens, from working wherever they want in the E.U., even to "protect British culture." So if Poland wants to stay in the E.U. and continue benefiting from that membership, it needs to give the same as it receives.
17
The Poles don't commit massive levels of violent crime, blow people up, attack soldiers with knives, and create islands of niqab/shalwar kamee wearing extremism and sharia. Westerners like the Poles, Hindus, Sikhs, East Asians and other non-Muslim immigrants manage to contribute economically and integrate into the UK and elsewhere in Europe.
10
Very inaccurate rant. The Poles do NOT integrate in the UK any better than Muslim minority ethnics. They also set up their own enclaves replete with Polish shops, bars, etc. where not a word of English is heard.
Migration is a constant in history. In the US, the wide open spaces and the wealth of resources made large inward migrations manageable for a time. But, as elsewhere, a point of resistance has been reached. Germany had better be well prepared if they do as they suggest, i.e., take half a million new people every year for some years. Obviously Polish people feel unable to face potential disruption.
Ireland's history has lessons on this. From the retreat of the ice age to the start of the 17th C, immigrations to that island were common. They were often disruptive and violent, but in the end, they reached a new equilibrium. Then, in 1609 a large-scale colonization took place--a political-economic venture meant to settle a rebellious province, Ulster, and extract profit and war materiel from it. The settlers distinguished themselves from the local, dispossessed population with religion and politics. We still suffer the consequences. Unplanned immigration in France and elsewhere has also bequeathed future generations there a legacy of discontent and worse.
Ireland's history has lessons on this. From the retreat of the ice age to the start of the 17th C, immigrations to that island were common. They were often disruptive and violent, but in the end, they reached a new equilibrium. Then, in 1609 a large-scale colonization took place--a political-economic venture meant to settle a rebellious province, Ulster, and extract profit and war materiel from it. The settlers distinguished themselves from the local, dispossessed population with religion and politics. We still suffer the consequences. Unplanned immigration in France and elsewhere has also bequeathed future generations there a legacy of discontent and worse.
16
As soon as Israel acquiesces and accepts some of these refugees,
then Poland should follow suit.
then Poland should follow suit.
33
Why on earth should israel accept a single syrian, whose nation housed the HQ of hamas, and where repeated polls showed widespread support of the syrian people for terrorist attacks against Israeli jews? How about you accept charles manson and ted bundy into your home, and YOU feed and clothe them for free.
Sure. We will as soon as you let disabled ISIS Veterans into your country
The flood of refugee into Europe is being matched by a flood of hysterical NYT op-eds and editorials demanding that European countries save the world by opening their borders. However I have yet to see a convincing explanation for why the peoples of Europe should WANT to see their countries flooded with culturally incompatible foreigners. Why? They have nothing to gain, and potentially an enormous amount to lose. Why demand that they take the risk?
I suspect the reason is that the people doing the demanding are, above all else, moralists. They care enormously about abstract principles like "compassion" -- you can see this in every word they write. They are much less interested in whether the policies they are demanding serve the long term interests of the people of the receiving countries. Such considerations strike them as selfish and immoral. Like all fundamentalists, they demand strict adherence to a set of abstract rules, whatever the consequences. If the consequences include the cultural destruction of Europe, well, so be it. That isn't important to them.
Unsurprisingly, such considerations ARE important to the common people of Europe, who see no value in risking generations of conflict if the only payoff is that their elites get to feel good about themselves and how compassionate they are. Hence the rise of populist right-wing political parties that side with the common people against the elites. The winning side will determine the future of Europe.
I suspect the reason is that the people doing the demanding are, above all else, moralists. They care enormously about abstract principles like "compassion" -- you can see this in every word they write. They are much less interested in whether the policies they are demanding serve the long term interests of the people of the receiving countries. Such considerations strike them as selfish and immoral. Like all fundamentalists, they demand strict adherence to a set of abstract rules, whatever the consequences. If the consequences include the cultural destruction of Europe, well, so be it. That isn't important to them.
Unsurprisingly, such considerations ARE important to the common people of Europe, who see no value in risking generations of conflict if the only payoff is that their elites get to feel good about themselves and how compassionate they are. Hence the rise of populist right-wing political parties that side with the common people against the elites. The winning side will determine the future of Europe.
82
Some are moralists, but in the case of the NYT editorial board, it is under the direct orders of its new owner, carlos slim. He has mexican telecom and banking monopolies, which are enriched when mexican illegal aliens call home or send remittances. That explains why the NYT editorial board has become so strong an advocate of open borders.
2
Compassion - indeed. But where is the compassion for the native citizens who are impacted by these decisions? Youth unemployment in Europe is already high. Imagine the young European who can't get a job already - now having to compete with these people. And then there will be the inevitable battle with Islamic radicalism. Yes, some of these refugees are already jihadists or will become so later. The vast majority will not of course, but count on some doing so. And count on ISIS smuggling in some "agents" with the refugees.
2
Exactly. The elites at the NYT are demanding Europe take in endless Muslim migrants regardless of the conflict and misery it will cause the ordinary citizens. But the elites aren't mentioning other moral absolutes of Western culture--women's rights, newfound gay rights, economic rights for poor citizens. Allowing endless migrants (many of whom are diametrically opposed to women's rights and gay rights) will erode these rights for the European countries they settle in. Why are the elites not concerned with the native populations and the great burden they will face when their neighborhoods are suddenly flooded with huge numbers of people who don't share a common religion or set of values with them? Muslims in particular have not integrated well into European societies. Do the elites really think hundreds of thousands and soon millions of mostly Muslim migrants won't eventually affect women's rights and gay rights in Europe?
It's not racist to ask these questions. How dare the NYT publish endless articles demanding European nations to only consider the plight of the migrants without any concern for the majority of European citizens.
It's not racist to ask these questions. How dare the NYT publish endless articles demanding European nations to only consider the plight of the migrants without any concern for the majority of European citizens.
4
Easier said than done. The Polish economy is nothing like Germany, France, Holland, Denmark or Britain, or the Scandinavian countries.There is a small ruling class in Poland that is doing very well. These are the people that have benefited from EU participation. They control what money and opportunities there are. But the majority of Poles live month-to-month. The rural Poles live on subsistence farms, often bartering produce etc with people in villages. Most of Poland’s monetary income is from Poles working in other countries. Often the work is low level such as harvesting crops, basic construction, health care, etc. The simple question is where are the resources for Poland to care for additional people, much less provide them jobs, when Poles themselves cannot find those jobs and resources in their own country.
There is a human debt to do as much as they can, especially insofar as Poles were helped by Iran for example. But Poland is not an oil producing country. The resources for helping would most likely come via the Church, which is to say the population, or indirectly via the EU.
There is a human debt to do as much as they can, especially insofar as Poles were helped by Iran for example. But Poland is not an oil producing country. The resources for helping would most likely come via the Church, which is to say the population, or indirectly via the EU.
25
I wonder what their economy would look like today for those western European countries if they were under communist rule for decades ?
2
Nonsense. Poland is doing very well thank you. GDP is growing exponentially. There are 5 massive shopping malls within 10 k's of where I live (totally crowded most days of the week), and although pensioners have a rough deal most of the young aspiring middle class have huge cars and houses. If it were n't for the huge EU hand outs (60bn this year?) Poland would be a failed state. More opportunity in Poland - esp for skilled workers - than many other countries in EU. There is an unwelcome xenophobic/racist rant developing in Poland nowadays. viz: Estera foundation - all Muslims are terrorists. Really??
This is insane!! Poland can barely afford to stay afloat. Unemployment in Poland is sky high and most young people are going to other countries because there are NO JOBS in may areas of Poland. Gee how is Poland supposed to provide work and assistance to all these refuges when it struggling to support its own people? Not to mention Poland IS taking in war refuges from Ukraine. Israel did the right thing by closing its doors but when Poland does the same thing they are deemed as racists. Poland is 99% Slavic and overwhelming Christian country, they don't want to wind up like France and the UK. Not to mention the majority of ethnic Germans don't want the Muslims either. The only real supporters of the refugees in Germany are other Muslims. These people are only coming for some free handouts.
65
Tom: unemployment in Poland is (EU statistics) 7.6% and falling (EU-28 9.5%, EU-19 10.9%). We wish it were lower, but, considering, not bad. Polish government statistics give the unemployment number at 10.0%, I do not know where the difference comes from. And this involves hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians and Belorussians working here (not quite officially often) plus tens of thousands EU expats (in a few professions Polish salaries are competitive against "richer" countries). Of course, over million of Poles work elsewhere in EU. So the picture is not black-white, and this is why much of discussion is taking place.
To the extent the article is true and accurate, I am ashamed of my Polish heritage.
7
It would be more accurate to demand that Gulf Oil States, with 2 Trillions of combined GDP, took some refuges. That should be the focus of our diplomatic efforts.
1
Citing Solidarity as a measure of Polish spirit is wrong. That solidarity was among Polish Catholic workers, encouraged and aided by a Polish Pope. The spirit of exclusion manifest there mirrors America's own racist problems, and we see even more clearly the problems civilization faces if we expect peace and prosperity to spread in the way capitalist greed has.
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Just wondering why Mr. Gebert, who is also a well known Jewish activist, is not so eager to share his thoughts about Israel's stance on Syrian refugee crisis.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/07/world/middleeast/netanyahu-rejects-cal...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/07/world/middleeast/netanyahu-rejects-cal...
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Marek: "why Mr. Gebert, (...) is not so eager to share his thoughts about Israel's stance on Syrian refugee crisis." - I guess because he is Jewish-POLISH. So his concern is OUR country, not Israel. You may like or not his recommendations, but he is entitled to them as much as anyone around here.
These people have never had self-government. Totalitarian governments do not let people be self sufficient, they provide things we would do for ourselves to make the imposition of control seem less. The people who grow up in such a system come to expect that government is supposed to do certain things never realizing that such service is not something that free people get from government hence the apparent demanding nature of some pleas.
I suggest that this newest wave of refugees can see that the places, which are still safe, now, soon won’t be. It is not a sign of deceptiveness or bad faith that they know Europe is the best place for refugees.
They have centuries long ties to Russia and the rest of Europe being descended from Europeans/Byzantium in many cases as can be seen on their faces, especially the faces of the children.
BTW those of you comparing this to the folks coming across the southern border are more correct than you may realize.