If Harvey were demonstrably injured, as RGIII was in that playoff game where his coaches behaved so irresponsibly by keeping him in, it would be incumbent on the Mets to shut him down. But clearly he isn't. And if Boras felt he was headed toward exceeding a firm innings limit, that would have been obvious months ago and he could have said something then. Springing it on us now is absurd. Of course Harvey's health and career come first, but this has the stench of a stunt.
3
Shut Harvey down at ca. 180 innings. After watching the Mets lose three at home to Pittsburgh last month and then lose 2 of 3 to a mediocre Marlins team this weekend, I am convinced that they are not a championship-caliber team. They have "streaked" this past month beating up on the hapless Phillies and Rockies. They will be lucky to hold off the Nationals and will be clobbered in the post season. There are at least three teams in the National League that are better: St Louis, Pittsburgh and LA. Save Harvey for coming years when the chances for a championship may be better.
2
Can't anybody here play this game? Leave it the amazin Mets to enter the promised land of meaningful September baseball in the lion's den with Scott Boras as well as the Washington Nationals. The summer of Wilmer and Yoenis may give way to the autumn of Harvey's pitch count unless we change the narrative to fundamentally sound baseball on the field. No matter who is
pitching, this team needs to focus on executing the sacrifice bunt, situational hitting and infield defense and avoiding meaningless substitutions like those in Sunday's game. With or without the symbol of the dark knight,this team will go only as far as its on the field efforts.
pitching, this team needs to focus on executing the sacrifice bunt, situational hitting and infield defense and avoiding meaningless substitutions like those in Sunday's game. With or without the symbol of the dark knight,this team will go only as far as its on the field efforts.
Today was a good tonic, Niese aside, for what ailed us on South Beach. Scherzer hasn't beaten us in three starts this year, 0-2 and a ND today giving up five earned and three dingers.
1
How many baseball players fell apart from dehydration this year? Name one! Yes, I'm suggesting that drinking may have played a role. Not the most immoral thing a Mets fan can do.
As far as his surgery, that should be behind the scenes. Boras put the kid in a terrible place, and undercut the team at the same time. Everybody loses.
As far as his surgery, that should be behind the scenes. Boras put the kid in a terrible place, and undercut the team at the same time. Everybody loses.
1
Shut him down - prorate his salary - tell him - see you in spring training - play ball.
I think the Mets need to shut him down after 180 innings or maybe slightly more at most and here's why: Even if they do manage to hold on to win the division - their lead is now down to a slim four games by the way, with six against Washington to go -- they simply don't have a chance of beating LA, STL, Pittsburgh or any other top team they might meet in the playoffs.
As ecstatic as Mets fans may be about possibly making the playoffs and WS, this is simply not a championship team. You don't risk Harvey's health when the odds of a league title and WS championship are so long.
As ecstatic as Mets fans may be about possibly making the playoffs and WS, this is simply not a championship team. You don't risk Harvey's health when the odds of a league title and WS championship are so long.
3
Does the mentality of the approach to protecting the arm of Matt Harvey in his first year back from surgery of Alderson and Collins remind anyone of the mentality behind the Chicago stockyards that Upton SIncliar made famous in his book, "The Jungle" about 1908 or so ? It should. It is not as if the Mets have a sterling record of protecting the arms of their pitchers. Risking the health of Johann Santana's arm whenhe had a no hitter going and seeing the harm occur is exhibit A on the judgment of Terry Collins. WHat about the rest of the injuries they seem to suffer every year ? Does anyone think that Alderson, Wilpon, Katz AND Collinsin his contract year have ANY significant priorities other than trying to maximize the work they get out of Harvey ? Wilpon and Katz surely have had a say in what happens this year to Harvey. They are the men who were "shocked, shocked" to discover that being told by the Madoff gang of a guaranteed yearly sizable return by investing in stocks should have alerted them to the likelihood that "fraud was afoot." If you believe in what Mets management tells you, you have the earmarks of a Trump supporter . . .
2
Look at teams that have won championships in baseball and other major sports. They're frequently the teams that catch fire and peak at the right time, not the so-called "championship" teams that hindsight shows were mislabelled. At their best, the Mets can beat anyone.
1
Send him to the other NY team. They deserve each other.
1
The Mets risked real injury to Johan Santana's arm for the illusion of substance (a no-hitter) and look what happened. With Wilpon and Katz as owners (and Alderson and Collins on board as good company men), they have a horrible record of injuries to pitchers. Harvey has the earmarks of a once-in-a-generation franchise pitcher (as does deGrom !). The Mets MANAGEMENT would be world-class incompetants to take ANY significant risks with his arm for the sake of one year, although THEY would use the good year to sell future tickets and raise prices. As long they have the lead in the division, shut him down. Then skip every other start until the playoffs. MANAGEMENT screwed up royally by not bringing him along more slowly this year SINCE THEY KNEW ALL ALONG THAT DOCTORS DO NOT WANT PITCHERS IN THEIR YEAR BACK TO PITCH MORE THAN THEIR PRIOR HIGH IN INNINGS. THE METS MANAGEMENT, FROM WILPON AND KATZ ON DOWN, ARE DUMB AND DISINGENUOUS. That means they are prone to lying.
3
Harvey is an employee. He's being paid millions. If the boss tells you to do something, you do it.
1
He's being paid $615,000 this year. He hasn't been to arbitration yet to start making the millions other players do.
2
I can understand Harveys reluctance, because doesn't have a huge contract.
He earns about 600Gs. If he blows out his arm his career is over.
If I was Harvey/Boras, I would ask for a huge insurance policy in case he gets hurt, and then pitch.
He earns about 600Gs. If he blows out his arm his career is over.
If I was Harvey/Boras, I would ask for a huge insurance policy in case he gets hurt, and then pitch.
1
This is typical $cott Bora$ behavior. While the Mets have every responsibility to protect their asset, it's another three years or so before Harvey can become a free agent, and Bora$ collect his huge cut of Harvey's contract.
And piping up now in such a conspicuous way? Totally typical of Bora$, who probably still has it in for the Mets over the failed A-Roid move.
It is within the Mets rights to pitch Harvey just as much as they see fit. And if Harvey was truly committed to an innings limit, he wouldn't have publicly balked over being skipped in Colorado; he would have asked for it earlier.
This is a bad time to mess with what had been very positive Mets karma, and it showed in Miami.
Harvey should want to avoid what happened the year Strasburg was shut down on an innings limit post TJ surgery. Has he won in the post season yet?
And piping up now in such a conspicuous way? Totally typical of Bora$, who probably still has it in for the Mets over the failed A-Roid move.
It is within the Mets rights to pitch Harvey just as much as they see fit. And if Harvey was truly committed to an innings limit, he wouldn't have publicly balked over being skipped in Colorado; he would have asked for it earlier.
This is a bad time to mess with what had been very positive Mets karma, and it showed in Miami.
Harvey should want to avoid what happened the year Strasburg was shut down on an innings limit post TJ surgery. Has he won in the post season yet?
4
Correcting my careless writing:
I agree that Matt Harvey should be protected, but what about Robert Griffin III who was sacrificed by one coach and set up to be smashed to bits by another coach?
Why aren't sports analysts aghast at the way in which Mr. Griffin has been treated? Athletes need protection but Mr. Griffin has just set out to be harmed by an obviously vindictive or incompetent coach and no writer seems to care.
[ I happened to watch the sequences in which Mr. Griffin was injured during a playoff game and again in the last couple of weeks. Both sequences were inexcusable, but the latest truly shocked me. How can a coach escape condemnation for failing to protect, or carefully allowing harm to come to a player in an exhibition game? ]
I agree that Matt Harvey should be protected, but what about Robert Griffin III who was sacrificed by one coach and set up to be smashed to bits by another coach?
Why aren't sports analysts aghast at the way in which Mr. Griffin has been treated? Athletes need protection but Mr. Griffin has just set out to be harmed by an obviously vindictive or incompetent coach and no writer seems to care.
[ I happened to watch the sequences in which Mr. Griffin was injured during a playoff game and again in the last couple of weeks. Both sequences were inexcusable, but the latest truly shocked me. How can a coach escape condemnation for failing to protect, or carefully allowing harm to come to a player in an exhibition game? ]
4
You're right that the decision ot keep RG· in the game after his inital injury was atrocious. However, the coach did not escape condemnation. Shanahan was lambasted by the local DC and national media, and deservedly so.
2
Exactly!
1
The Mets need a 7th inning reliever in order to win the NL East and succeed in the postseason. If Harvey has 18 innings left in his arm for this season, put him in the bullpen now.
5
I agree with you. The bullpen is still an arm short. Harvey or Matz out of the pen, and sign Betancourt. And don't let the press vilify your players. Push back on the press, and let Harvey have his say, even if it means shutting him down.
Make 2016 and 2017 special years. Don't waste it this year, the team's not good enough for an "all-in" run.
Make 2016 and 2017 special years. Don't waste it this year, the team's not good enough for an "all-in" run.
2
Amen to that. Go with de Grom, Syndegard, Matz and Colon. Sorry Neise.
1
If there were a number, it should have been stated in March, and it should be pitches, not innings.
But since I'm a Red Sox fan, things are just great the way they are. Let's go Mets. Boras is your new manager.
But since I'm a Red Sox fan, things are just great the way they are. Let's go Mets. Boras is your new manager.
1
And the Mets are still the Red Sox daddy and have been since '86'...
2
To those who say "trade him": trade him for what ? If you have a legitimate suggestion, make it, but if you just want to get rid of him because you don't like his agent, then you are making no sense.
Boras represents a lot of players, and it makes no sense to make enemies with him. Like it or not, he has a say here, and will eventually be representing someone that the Mets can use somewhere down the line.
For example, the Mets could have really used K-Rod this September, but because they treated him like garbage when he was here and is represented by Boras, they had no shot at him.
This isn't 1952. If they take the stance that the players and their agents aren't partners, they will be on the outside looking in for a long time.
The best idea on this board was from Stan Eaker, who wants to put him in the pen to close out the year.
They should have done the same with Matz and Montero, but they insisted on having them start, and now both of them are injured.
Time to think out of the box, but just telling Boras and Harvey to grin and bear it is a bad move now and for the long term.
Boras represents a lot of players, and it makes no sense to make enemies with him. Like it or not, he has a say here, and will eventually be representing someone that the Mets can use somewhere down the line.
For example, the Mets could have really used K-Rod this September, but because they treated him like garbage when he was here and is represented by Boras, they had no shot at him.
This isn't 1952. If they take the stance that the players and their agents aren't partners, they will be on the outside looking in for a long time.
The best idea on this board was from Stan Eaker, who wants to put him in the pen to close out the year.
They should have done the same with Matz and Montero, but they insisted on having them start, and now both of them are injured.
Time to think out of the box, but just telling Boras and Harvey to grin and bear it is a bad move now and for the long term.
2
This is ridiculous and why the Mets are perennial losers. The probability of being denied one of the team's best starters. And this can't be good for a clubhouse. Championships are won with "lights out" pitching and team chemistry. Go ask Joe Torre.
Are the premiums on an insurance policy that cost prohibitive? Alderson could engineer it so he could get a cut of the proceeds too.
Are the premiums on an insurance policy that cost prohibitive? Alderson could engineer it so he could get a cut of the proceeds too.
1
MLB players contracts are routinely insured against the possibility the player may get hurt and spend his time getting paid from it not playing. What makes you assume the Mets don't have one on Harvey? And, no the team wouldn't let the GM "get a cut of the proceeds", that's absurd. Maybe you meant it that way. This is a Scott Boras story, more than it is a Mets story. The Mets have taken major steps to slow down Harvey's accumulation of innings in 2015 to Harvey's public disappointment (remember the 6-man rotation?) and they and Harvey both have talked all through it about him pitching in October Now Boras tells the guy from Fox Sports that he expected all year that the Mets were going to follow the example of Washington's shutting down of Strasburg at a specific hard number, and it was 180 innings. What?? The Mets will be pitching Harvey in October, you can bet. If, of course, the Nationals don't return to the form that was expected of them.
Make Jacob DeGrom the face of the franchise. Or Colon. No more Harvey Days. Just what are we to make of a guy who is thinking about his contract four years down the road and not the pennant race now. Would Batman abandon Gotham City like this? Sign a contract with the Mets now and don't worry in the unlikey event your arm falls off.
4
I agree the Matt Harvey should be protected, but what about Robert Griffin III who was sacrificed by one coach and set up to be smashed to bits by another coach?
Why aren't sports analysts aghast at the way in the Mr. Griffin has been treated? Athletes need protection but Mr. Griffin has just set out to be harmed by an obviously vindictive or incompetent coach and no writer seems to care.
Why aren't sports analysts aghast at the way in the Mr. Griffin has been treated? Athletes need protection but Mr. Griffin has just set out to be harmed by an obviously vindictive or incompetent coach and no writer seems to care.
3
The difference between football and baseball. In football, players are 100% disposable. I'm surprised you haven't noticed, Nancy.
4
The difference between football and baseball. In football, players are 100% disposable....
[ Beyond saddening, I understand. ]
[ Beyond saddening, I understand. ]
2
The treatment of Robert Griffin and his destruction as a player was predictable the day the Synderskins drafted him. It is the way that sorry franchise has been run ever since Dan Snyder bought it far too many years ago for this former fan. Fortunately baseball is my first love and I have the Nats. The next three games against the Mets are what baseball is all about.
I would be trading him in the off-season. This nonsense runs so counter to all the bravado he has previously exhibited and the Mets don't need the distraction! Thank God for Cespedes! I would be spending my money on him!
3
There is a simple solution, here. Let harvey start next week against Washington, and then use him in relief - roughly an inning every 3-4 days, through the end of he season. He'll keep his rhythm by throwing hard now and then, stay under 180 innings, and allow his arm to recover from the rigors of the season. The question about post-season could then be made after a full physical assessment.
7
Relief pitchers are expected to go all-out on the mound. If you want a fragile starter to risk his arm health, use him as a reliever in close, meaningful games.
“Ultimately, it’s going to be Matt Harvey making this decision,” ElAttrache sad. “The final decision, ultimately, rests in his hands.”
Balderdash. The final decision belongs to Mr. Alderson.
deGrom, Syndergaard, Matz, Colon
Niese if he can get figured out
If that's not enough starting pitching to take you deep into the post-season, then Matt Harvey is the least of your worries.
Balderdash. The final decision belongs to Mr. Alderson.
deGrom, Syndergaard, Matz, Colon
Niese if he can get figured out
If that's not enough starting pitching to take you deep into the post-season, then Matt Harvey is the least of your worries.
5
I like the idea of moving Harvey to the bullpen. He'll continue to contribute to the team, and could even be a spot starter if the situation arises. I will always remember Sid Fernandez coming out of the bullpen and pitching big innings for the Mets in the World Series. I'm not sure if it was game 6 or 7, but I'm pretty sure he saved the day.
In individual games the focus is on pitch count. 100 seems to be the magic number.
Why in this case is the focus on innings? Shouldn't we be dealing with apples and apples? One pitcher could throw 18,000 pitches over 180- innings in a season and another might have pnly throw 16,000 over the same number of innings?
Does anyone know or care what those numbers are in all of these Tommy John players that are being discusses?
Why in this case is the focus on innings? Shouldn't we be dealing with apples and apples? One pitcher could throw 18,000 pitches over 180- innings in a season and another might have pnly throw 16,000 over the same number of innings?
Does anyone know or care what those numbers are in all of these Tommy John players that are being discusses?
5
Think you math is a little faulty--your numbers come out to somewhere between 88-100 pitches an inning, which isn't happening for anybody, warm-up throws notwithstanding.
A more realistic number for 180 innings would be about 3000 pitches or thereabouts (approximately 16 and two thirds pitches per inning). Even twenty-five pitches an inning only yields 4500 pitches total (and no one is lasting as a major league starter with that average).
A more realistic number for 180 innings would be about 3000 pitches or thereabouts (approximately 16 and two thirds pitches per inning). Even twenty-five pitches an inning only yields 4500 pitches total (and no one is lasting as a major league starter with that average).
2
Including Strasbutg in the equation of pitchers who have not had trouble is disingenuous. His elbow held up, but he's been an injury magnet.
6
Agree. He's only at 91 innings this year.
1
Let him make 2 more starts and shut him down and trade him in off-season. They have him for 3 more years and he will walk anyway. Boras' clients always get top dollar and I'm not giving a pitcher pushing 30 a long-term deal.
Alternatively, they can hold onto him for another year and make a strong push for it this off-season free agent wise.
Alternatively, they can hold onto him for another year and make a strong push for it this off-season free agent wise.
9