The idea of equating shooting with hiking or biking when claiming rights is absurd and a very specious argument, but one I fear will only gain momentum in this sorry political moment.
15
And things will only get worse if the GOPs goal of privatizing national parks and other public lands comes to pass. As the Surgeon claims, guns are a public health issue whether in the mountains of Colorado, the streets of Baltimore or the floor of the Texas Senate. If people want a society that can be sustained it will have to be without guns in the hands of citizens.
14
I wonder if the shooting activists also participate as clean up volunteers.......
4
These must be the responsible gun owners the NRA keeps talking about.
8
In Europe it's considered bad manners for the typical shooter not to use a sound suppressor. In the US using one is illegal.
2
There are standards for gun range design, some of which the NRA may endorse, and given the interest in shooting there should be more ranges developed thus focusing on safety and enjoyment. The only problem is money and the NIMBY's that will come out to protest. Both are significant issues. In the mean time shooters need to be conscientious of others and clean up after themselves. Hope I am not asking too much.
1
I think that a shooting season should be allowed at all national parks at a time or times decided by the federal government. I do think two seasons a year would be reasonable, but who am I to say, since I am NOT a gun owner or user.
During this time, all registered gun owners can have access for shooting with similar stipulations as those for game hunters.
If non-hunting activities are allowed in the Park at that time, the same rules should apply for non-hunters in the parks during regular hunting seasons.
If non-hunters are NOT allowed in the Park during hunting seasons, it should be the same requirements as for non-hunters in hunting season.
The rules should be simple plus clear:
Shooters should watch for orange jackets, stripes on clothing, and so such as to avoid shooting at or near people.
Participants should be warned and strongly advised that the Park is not responsible for incidents occurring in areas that are being used for target shooting, although the Park Service will investigate such incidents.
Participants who still wish to enter the Park will need to sign a simple disclosure advising them of the target shooting season. If they choose not to sign, the Park will give them a statement of non-compliance listing the Park's legal stance on the matter.
Done!
During this time, all registered gun owners can have access for shooting with similar stipulations as those for game hunters.
If non-hunting activities are allowed in the Park at that time, the same rules should apply for non-hunters in the parks during regular hunting seasons.
If non-hunters are NOT allowed in the Park during hunting seasons, it should be the same requirements as for non-hunters in hunting season.
The rules should be simple plus clear:
Shooters should watch for orange jackets, stripes on clothing, and so such as to avoid shooting at or near people.
Participants should be warned and strongly advised that the Park is not responsible for incidents occurring in areas that are being used for target shooting, although the Park Service will investigate such incidents.
Participants who still wish to enter the Park will need to sign a simple disclosure advising them of the target shooting season. If they choose not to sign, the Park will give them a statement of non-compliance listing the Park's legal stance on the matter.
Done!
It is becoming abundantly clear that gun rights have now overwhelmed human rights to safety and life. The NRA has won, but then again that was obvious after the massacre at Newtown and the failure to change our gun laws.
19
We spend billions on war on drugs and nothing on keep public areas safe from people who have nothing better to do than spend their time shooting in public areas. Why can't they use the same tactics they use on finding marijuana plants deep in the forest. They have all these helicopters and men flying over forest areas to find marijuana plants, they need to be looking for these idiots who are a real danger to people.
14
It's all about testosterone, logic and rationality don't stand a chance against so many gun owners.
6
Question from Mr. Pederson: “What gives the B.L.M. the right to go down and shut it down on a whim?”
Answer from anybody with a soul: The death of Mr. Martin, which most certainly is not a whim.
Answer from anybody with a soul: The death of Mr. Martin, which most certainly is not a whim.
18
coupla things- the weapons in picture one are shotguns. One doesn't
target practice so much as simply and carefully point- they hit everything.
One learns to deal with a rather violent recoil. And the most likely way trash
gets to the ground and waters is by way of people who happen to be trash.
SDS
target practice so much as simply and carefully point- they hit everything.
One learns to deal with a rather violent recoil. And the most likely way trash
gets to the ground and waters is by way of people who happen to be trash.
SDS
3
Is gun shooter’s freedom to own and discharge firearms is more important than responsible firing for the safety of others? No. Present culture, as crucial life rights are being debated and the country is battling the illness of big money in politics, is becoming more obsessed with gun ownership as some psychological form of rebellion and protection from their internal fears. However, the cost is becoming the safety and even lives of innocent Americans trying to live in their homes, hike, camp and bike, unarmed, through America’s beautiful landscape. Freedom to bear arms DOES NOT equate to freedom to recklessly shoot, freedom to kill, freedom to bully another human being, no matter how empowering a feeling a gun may give someone.
This is the error in thought that so many Americans fall victim too. That gun ownership entitles them to become an outlaw. The dichotomy of American history, antihero gunslinger versus responsible citizen.
Only through reasonable dialogue and agreement can rules and boundaries be put into place in order to ensure that all freedoms are protected. The freedom to bear arms, the freedom to walk the street, hike and live in your home free of gunfire, the freedom of fear of persecution or death because of other citizens irresponsible actions. Restrict where guns can be discharged, just as smoking, driving, flying are. All for the safety of all the citizenry. Otherwise it is chaos and anarchy. Which I feel is exactly what most gun toters are aiming for.
This is the error in thought that so many Americans fall victim too. That gun ownership entitles them to become an outlaw. The dichotomy of American history, antihero gunslinger versus responsible citizen.
Only through reasonable dialogue and agreement can rules and boundaries be put into place in order to ensure that all freedoms are protected. The freedom to bear arms, the freedom to walk the street, hike and live in your home free of gunfire, the freedom of fear of persecution or death because of other citizens irresponsible actions. Restrict where guns can be discharged, just as smoking, driving, flying are. All for the safety of all the citizenry. Otherwise it is chaos and anarchy. Which I feel is exactly what most gun toters are aiming for.
13
The government should only allow shooting on open public lands during hunting season. Any other time, shooting should be done at a shooting range.
If you hike and bike during hunting season, wear orange, and hunters, you better know the difference between a hiker, a bear, and a deer. If you aren't sure, don't shoot.
If you hike and bike during hunting season, wear orange, and hunters, you better know the difference between a hiker, a bear, and a deer. If you aren't sure, don't shoot.
8
There is a small wooded preserve right off a large shopping mall parking lot where I have walked my very well-trained leashed two dogs on its trails. A few months ago I heard gunshots. We approached cautiously so I could check from a "safe" observation point. Two young adults from Pennsylvania were target shooting....he instructing her....at a tree across the narrow trail. This upstate NY(Saratoga) preserve is SMALL....perhaps a square acre! There are usually a runner or two, or another dog owner wanting a quiet walk. The very polite well-spoken couple told me that Pennsylvania would allow their shooting in such a place, but said that they would leave and find a larger area. I suggested a firing range!
Please! Do NOT defend such an inane perspective here. The second amendment does not state "stupid stuff with guns" is a guaranteed right....but a lot of what has happened with the corporatization of the NRA since my youth (I am 70) has moved from NRA being the voice of reason to SALES of all types of firearms to civilians, even children, for profit over the safety of our citizenry. Some of the gun owners here speak very responsibly and humanely. I am hoping and praying that more of them take over the process of teaching the others to force back a change in the NRA and it's present very dangerous messages and politicking to caring for safety first....but I am not holding my breath.
Please! Do NOT defend such an inane perspective here. The second amendment does not state "stupid stuff with guns" is a guaranteed right....but a lot of what has happened with the corporatization of the NRA since my youth (I am 70) has moved from NRA being the voice of reason to SALES of all types of firearms to civilians, even children, for profit over the safety of our citizenry. Some of the gun owners here speak very responsibly and humanely. I am hoping and praying that more of them take over the process of teaching the others to force back a change in the NRA and it's present very dangerous messages and politicking to caring for safety first....but I am not holding my breath.
14
Please help to get these wannabe Rambos off our public lands! They're endangering the public, damaging public property (including prehistoric petroglyphs) and trashing our beautiful natural resources.
19
Enough. If your representatives get good NRA ratings, vote them out.
21
If I dumped a can of paint on a rock in a national forest, everyone would be outraged. But if I blow up a can of paint with a rifle in a national forest, that's an expression of my 2nd Amendment rights? It's way past time to call the NRA what it is...a terrorist organization.
25
Please send these target shooters to the desert and let them shoot at each other. Hey, real moving targets!
13
I was on my mountain bike when I was pinned down by someone shooting. This didn't happen in a national forest but in the desert. Dirt roads criss-cross this section of the desert and people drive on them. It is only matter of time a driver or passenger will be shot. These shooters don't seem to care if there are other people around. They leave their trigger trash all over despoiling the landscape. Also lets get something else straight; some of these shooters are not rural folk with shotguns and rifles but people with expensive SUVs and semi-automatic or automatic weapons. THIS HAS TO STOP!
17
These folks will leave us no choice but to ban the discharge of guns on public lands, period. If they don't like it, and of course they will scream bloody murder, tough luck, they brought it on themselves.
21
United States of Guns.
8
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness v. the right to bare arms might be an interesting argument. But I wouldn't want to be caught in its crossfire.
This article is a very strong endorsement for spending the summer on an island off the coast of Nova Scotia
This article is a very strong endorsement for spending the summer on an island off the coast of Nova Scotia
6
NRA argument revolves around "responsible" gun use. But clearly, there are substantial number of people with easy access to lethal weapons who are not responsible. But NRA takes no responsibility, has no remorse when innocent people are murdered, when irreplaceable heritage that belongs to all of us is destroyed, when others' equal rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are disrupted. I still don't understand why the false assertion of "gun rights" trumps every other. The National Park Service should rescind access to guns in national parks, except in designated areas, during designated times. We all are entitled to enjoy these places without fear for our lives and terror for our loved ones.
17
Shooting is perfectly legal on most public lands, unless it's explicitly prohibited. I shoot frequently on BLM lands. Gun owners need to be responsible and be aware of what lies beyond their target, as well as cleaning up their spent cases and shredded targets. But people on public lands also need to be aware that shooting there IS LEGAL. This is America, not Britain, not Russia, not China. Guns are legal, and shooting them is legal. Of course, The New York Times preaches to low information voters who don't understand what their legal rights are, which explains many of the unreasoned and ill-informed comments below.
1
I live in NY State and grew up in MA, spending a lot of vacations in ME. My father and brother were hunters but only engaged in skeep shooting as target-shooting and this was located on a set site with a sand pit for a backdrop at our local Sportsmens' Club. It was very safe, and I never saw either of them shooting at any other type of target event. I wrotw what I did above because my personal choice is not to own or use guns, although my father made sure I knew how to shoot. I hope my suggestion above is a reasonable one and that something similar could be agreed to and
promoted by both gun-owners and non-gun owners.
promoted by both gun-owners and non-gun owners.
1
The people that read the NY Times are NOT "low information voters". What insulting tripe. Its the people that watch FOX news that have been shown by actual studies to be the least informed people in the nation...even less informed than those that watch no news at all.
Take your nasty smarter than thou attitude someplace else bud, where that kind of hate sells. People in New York City and others across the country that read the "Times" actually understand what you guys are selling quite well. It is just that we are not buying it.
Many of us understand our rights quite well, thank you. We also understand conflicts of those rights. We also get it that no right is sacrosanct...all have limitations, including the 2nd amendment. It is you and your ilk that seems to think the 2nd amendment is holy writ, superseding all other rights. Sorry, but your right to bear arms and discharge them on public lands ends when I am in the area and could get hurt. Common sense is all it takes, you should try it sometimes!
Take your nasty smarter than thou attitude someplace else bud, where that kind of hate sells. People in New York City and others across the country that read the "Times" actually understand what you guys are selling quite well. It is just that we are not buying it.
Many of us understand our rights quite well, thank you. We also understand conflicts of those rights. We also get it that no right is sacrosanct...all have limitations, including the 2nd amendment. It is you and your ilk that seems to think the 2nd amendment is holy writ, superseding all other rights. Sorry, but your right to bear arms and discharge them on public lands ends when I am in the area and could get hurt. Common sense is all it takes, you should try it sometimes!
9
And here I thought it was my legal right to enter public lands with no fear of being slaughtered by someone exercising their perceived right to shoot anywhere anytime, without restrictions or liability for their actions. Silly me.
7
the author left out the gun toting illegal aliens guarding their pot growing patches hidden in our national forests...they are the real danger in the great outdoors
What many gun owners don't seem to understand is that the gun debate has nothing to do with hunting. People who want gun regulation don't care about hunters. (My father was a very respectful and careful hunter.) We care about guns in our cities shooting at cops, militias stockpiling huge quantities of weapons, guns in our schools shooting at our children, and yes guns in our National Parks shooting at hikers, trees, and National Monuments. I think the NRA for many many years has been spreading lies and misinformation to make gun owners feel increasingly paranoid about people trying to take their guns away and increasingly entitled to have and shoot their guns wherever they please, and as a result, I believe gun owners (not real hunters), have gotten more aggressive and less respectful towards the rights of others.
14
Instead of writing in the NYT comment section you should all be writing your Congressman, Legislators, House Representatives, the Bureau of Land Management, the President, the Governor......etc. Continuously. Might is not right, but you might get a reaction if you write. People are entitled to be safe in their homes, on the streets, at work, on the subway, in the woods.... this is not subverted by the right to bear arms.
6
Normally, laws are created to serve the greater good. However, with powerful and wealthy NRA lobbyists, open carry permits, gun show private sellers not required to perform background checks and the highest gun death toll in the world, U.S. gun laws do not serve the greater good.
However, a few steps can be taken to protect people and artifacts from destruction in U.S. national forests.
1) Ban year-'round hunting. In hunting seasons, clearly define hunting territories by marking trees with large X's. Post at each trailhead notice that it is hunting season, and that hikers should stay out of hunting territories.
2) Define specific practice ranges within national forests, provided with backstops.
3) Enforcement: use drones equipped with thermal imaging technology to locate shooters outside their proscribed zones. When found, send in marshalls to arrest and transport the shooters.
4) Require that the NRA sell liability insurance to all of its members, for coverage of all forest-related mayhem, even that caused by non-members. More damage--higher premiums.
The shooters are doing the damage here. The onus is on them, and lawmakers, to reign them in.
However, a few steps can be taken to protect people and artifacts from destruction in U.S. national forests.
1) Ban year-'round hunting. In hunting seasons, clearly define hunting territories by marking trees with large X's. Post at each trailhead notice that it is hunting season, and that hikers should stay out of hunting territories.
2) Define specific practice ranges within national forests, provided with backstops.
3) Enforcement: use drones equipped with thermal imaging technology to locate shooters outside their proscribed zones. When found, send in marshalls to arrest and transport the shooters.
4) Require that the NRA sell liability insurance to all of its members, for coverage of all forest-related mayhem, even that caused by non-members. More damage--higher premiums.
The shooters are doing the damage here. The onus is on them, and lawmakers, to reign them in.
6
"Gun groups say they have been shooting safely on public lands for decades, and that accidents are rare. They say they have the same rights to use America’s collective backyards as four-wheelers, mountain bikers or backpackers."
I totally agree. There is a responsibility that comes with that though. Follow the rules and cleanup your mess when finished. That is commonsense. Of course after reading this article and multiple ones on drone operators across the country the past week it's obvious that there is a major deficiency of it in a segment of our population. When people prove that they can't self-regulate their hobbies the government gets involved. Unfortunately, more restrictions and fines are the result. Of course the government has to have a budget that allows them to enforce the rules. With the amount of public lands that they own, it's never going to happen.
I totally agree. There is a responsibility that comes with that though. Follow the rules and cleanup your mess when finished. That is commonsense. Of course after reading this article and multiple ones on drone operators across the country the past week it's obvious that there is a major deficiency of it in a segment of our population. When people prove that they can't self-regulate their hobbies the government gets involved. Unfortunately, more restrictions and fines are the result. Of course the government has to have a budget that allows them to enforce the rules. With the amount of public lands that they own, it's never going to happen.
7
In this community, this is a No-Win-Gordian-Knot. Although I am N.R.A., the only thing I've ever shot my Mossberg Long-Range 22 at is a 5-Bull-Competition-Target; my score was usually 89, 90, or 91. I have never owned a handgun, or hunting equipment; the reason is self-preservation. (Wink!)
Good luck on figuring this out, NYT-Commenter-Community.
Good luck on figuring this out, NYT-Commenter-Community.
1
Target shooting belongs on a range not our National Forest or Parks.
10
A typical bullet from a .22 rifle, not at all high powered, can travel over a mile or penetrate 8" of pine. A hunting rifle is deadly at well over a mile. It's easy to be unaware of what is happening that far away from you unless you take care to be sure that you have a solid backstop. It's one of the most basic rules of shooting.
9
Sorry, non-shooting supporters: if the NRA is involved, they win and you lose. Don't you know by now the NRA always gets its way? Just ask the families of the 90 people who were shot to death yesterday, or the 90 that will be shot to death today, or the 90 tomorrow. Their family members have and will learn who is in charge now.
11
Given the state of our gun laws, I suspect, as with airlines fatalities when compared to car fatalities, you are actually much safer in our woods and parks than in our cities and schools.
I do not mean that as a defense of allowing shooting in the woods but as a condemnation of the whole stupid, fear ridden, falsely patriotic, totally CHINO attitude of this sick nation and its fatal love affair with guns.
Go into the woods to enjoy the beauty, but go knowing there are nutcases out there excercising their "God given" 2nd Ammendment rights to deprive you of your liberty and pursuit of happiness, indeed your very life, in their pursuit of their NRA protected right to put you at risk in the name of Constitutionally Stupid.
I do not mean that as a defense of allowing shooting in the woods but as a condemnation of the whole stupid, fear ridden, falsely patriotic, totally CHINO attitude of this sick nation and its fatal love affair with guns.
Go into the woods to enjoy the beauty, but go knowing there are nutcases out there excercising their "God given" 2nd Ammendment rights to deprive you of your liberty and pursuit of happiness, indeed your very life, in their pursuit of their NRA protected right to put you at risk in the name of Constitutionally Stupid.
2
Those who trivialize the dangers of random shooting in the public lands should remember that the Second Amendment was only recently expanded to ensure the individual "right to own a gun" not the right to do anything you want with it. The only hope I have for rationality is that a future Supreme Court will reread the wording and notice the commas which qualify this right to "a well regulated militia" and send these bullies and thugs who endanger the public, HOWEVER INFRENQUENTLY, home empty handed.
5
“Shooters are getting frustrated and upset,” Mr. Pedersen said. “What gives the B.L.M. the right to go down and shut it down on a whim?”
What gives them the right ? Stupid, Dangerous & Irresponsible behavior by so-called Grown Adults, that's what gives them the right.
"What does the New York Times know about rural culture?" - WHAT rural Culture? Maybe a Hundred years ago. Practically every inch of this Nation has been inundated and overpopulated. Rural Culture. What a ridiculous statement. Is that the same Culture that overflows out of every Nook & Cranny with traveling Meth Chemists & Homeless people from around the Globe ? There isn't a corner in America that the Lay's and Pepsi Products Salesman has not gotten to and destroyed the Local Products.
What gives them the right ? Stupid, Dangerous & Irresponsible behavior by so-called Grown Adults, that's what gives them the right.
"What does the New York Times know about rural culture?" - WHAT rural Culture? Maybe a Hundred years ago. Practically every inch of this Nation has been inundated and overpopulated. Rural Culture. What a ridiculous statement. Is that the same Culture that overflows out of every Nook & Cranny with traveling Meth Chemists & Homeless people from around the Globe ? There isn't a corner in America that the Lay's and Pepsi Products Salesman has not gotten to and destroyed the Local Products.
5
You are exactly right about "rural culture". 80% of Americans now live in urban areas and just 20% in our rural areas. This is a complete change from 100 years ago when 80% lived in the country, usually on small family farms.
Big city values now dictate our culture, and one of those values is knowing how to share limited space. I suggest our rural brethren learn this moral value.
Big city values now dictate our culture, and one of those values is knowing how to share limited space. I suggest our rural brethren learn this moral value.
3
Sounds like some people shooting on federal lands are violating Jeff Cooper’s Fourth Rule of Firearm Safety —which is inexcusable.
RULE 4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET & WHAT’S BEHIND IT
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it … You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is behind it.
RULE 4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET & WHAT’S BEHIND IT
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it … You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is behind it.
7
I would like to come the the rescue of the poor NRA by taking their position "Guns don’t kill people; people kill people.” and suggesting a minor modification. Guns don’t kill people; politicians kill people by taking payoffs from the NRA, checking their common sense at the door and consistently voting on behalf of the NRA on all legislation designed to improve public safety whether it be better background checks, requiring robust gun safety training or even simply separating hikers from target shooting. Wouldn't it be nice if politicians were required to recuse themselves from any vote that involved parties that had contributed to their cause? Oops I forgot corporations are people but does that also include the NRA?
5
The obvious solution for this is to arm the hikers.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a hiker with a gun.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a hiker with a gun.
4
National Rifle Association and other shooting groups have objected, urging members to write letters and attend meetings to keep the land open to guns.
The NRA--Taliban of the US. In Afghanistan we were dismayed when the Taliban destroyed those ancient and beautiful giant Buddhas.
Now the NRA nuts ... shooting.. is jeopardizing hundreds of petroglyphs that Native Americans pecked onto sandstone outcroppings and boulders as long as 10,000 years ago. Advocates say the mountainside is an open-air museum, one where bullets have struck the petroglyphs, chipping and cracking the runic swirls and wiry images of people and animals.
And yes, hitting a living human being now and then too, collateral damage to NRA recreation.
The NRA--Taliban of the US. In Afghanistan we were dismayed when the Taliban destroyed those ancient and beautiful giant Buddhas.
Now the NRA nuts ... shooting.. is jeopardizing hundreds of petroglyphs that Native Americans pecked onto sandstone outcroppings and boulders as long as 10,000 years ago. Advocates say the mountainside is an open-air museum, one where bullets have struck the petroglyphs, chipping and cracking the runic swirls and wiry images of people and animals.
And yes, hitting a living human being now and then too, collateral damage to NRA recreation.
11
Beyond outrageous. It isn't bad enough that everyone should have the "right" to have any gun they want but then they go and shoot them off randomly in the wilderness? It is akin to cigarettes and the dangers of second hand smoke. Their "rights" are infringing on the rights and safety of others and should be curtailed as such.
4
A lot of money could be made with this situation, beginning with expensive permits to chase and shoot hikers.
2
The 'environmentalists' - saving America one constitutionally protected right at a time.
1
Only the most foolish waste time & cartridge to blast away; the more prudent quietly save the ammo for when needed.
2
These irresponsible shooters better wise up or the liberal progressive types will start anchoring themselves in the midst of no where hoping they get shot. And then they'll really be sorry!
none of this will change until it gets so bad that tourists from other countries refuse to come and spend their money here. The death of toddlers, of innocent church worshippers, school children and teachers, movie theater goers, hikers, business people, all of that is meaningless in this wild-west country. Hit them in the wallet and watch it all change! We appear to be powerless Americans because the N.R.A. intimidates our politicians and incites the gun-populace. Only economics can save us now, not morality and common sense....how sad is that.
4
If people want to shoot on public territories, let them first make their lawns public and allow the others shoot there. Maybe such a radical measure will bring them some understanding of why they should not do some things, why some things are nasty and destructive.
2
None of these people are in favor of setting aside land for shooting, they just want it stopped. Responsible shooters always know where their bullets land. If BLM would give shooters and area to shoot and provide rules, then art, humans and shooters could coexist, though not in close proximity. If they haul refrigerators onto public land, that is a totally separate issue similar to leaving water bottles.
2
I'm sick of these infantile gun owners who believe they have a right to carry and use deadly weapons where ever they want to use them.
And without skipping a heartbeat, the NRA charges in to protect the arms and munition industry which thrives on these stupid shooting sprees. I'm never surprised by the idiocy of NRA 'advocacy' for anything gun related, but to equate shooting in national parks and forests to 'hiking' is ludicrous. Hikers actions don't put other visitors' lives in danger.
It's obvious by these reports that too many infantile gun owners out for some cheap thrills shooting up whatever they can are damaging in danger
And without skipping a heartbeat, the NRA charges in to protect the arms and munition industry which thrives on these stupid shooting sprees. I'm never surprised by the idiocy of NRA 'advocacy' for anything gun related, but to equate shooting in national parks and forests to 'hiking' is ludicrous. Hikers actions don't put other visitors' lives in danger.
It's obvious by these reports that too many infantile gun owners out for some cheap thrills shooting up whatever they can are damaging in danger
5
I have this recurring fantasy: the safety of the skies around airports, now riddled with drones, could be restored by giving the yahoos with guns a place for their target practice.
1
Apparently, hiking Americans have to get use to the idea that they may be killed by gun-loving enthusiasts. Trying to provide a gun-free zone for families who like to hike in our wilderness areas appears to be an abomination to the NRA and its devotees. Let no one ever forget that the NRA is one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the known universe. Perhaps, every hiking mother, father, and child should consider wearing a bullet-proof vest when they wander in areas where " patriotic" shooters find ecstatic joy blasting holes in trees, rocks, animals, etc.
4
I live in NC and have a shooting range on my two and a half acres of land. I always shoot down at my targets. There are irresponsible gun owners but like cars, there are irresponsible car owners. I would say that the largest majority of gun owners are very responsible but there are some knuckle heads out there that make gun owners look bad.
Shooting at petroglyphs is like shooting at Mount Rushmore or the Statue of Liberty. If many public areas have restrictions on picking plants, how can destroying the vegetation by shooting it up be justified? Since there seems to be a need, set up firing ranges on public lands in areas where it is safe to shoot and keep copies of the NRA's own recommendations for gun safety on hand. The NRA should stop defending gun owners who violate the organization's own standards.
3
The shooters' argument that "that's the way we've always done it" is even more facile now that there are so many more people, so many more guns, and so much more power in the weaponry that some of these jack*sses are toting. If all the powerboaters on a lake ran over all the canoeists, whose rights are being trampled? Answer: everyone's. The ripples of damage from excessive gun use in public places spread wider than anyone can predict.
3
The solution to the problem is simple, have designated shooting ranges on public land. Allow target shooting there only. Also have designated hunting area too. This will protect both parties. You could shoot and not worry about accidentally hitting someone and hikers could do their thing without worrying about being shot. Problem solved!
1
The place for firearms is in a sand pit or on a bona fide range. There is no place for random guns on land belonging to all the people. I say this as a lifetime gun owner, from a family that has owned guns in this country since the 1600s.
3
Just as gun owners/hunters seem to think they should have unfettered access to public lands and forests, i suppose they would totally understand that I have the same right to blow a bull horn 24/7 during hunting season on the very same lands they are occupying.
Where does civility and common sense and respect for boundries enter into this conversation.
Where does civility and common sense and respect for boundries enter into this conversation.
3
To any American that agrees with Leslie here. "YOU are the problem with America today."
Accidents happen. Sure, there are a few idiots in any endeavor , but the vast majority of gun owners are excellent citizens and conduct themselves with all due respect to their surroundings. In the case of guns they ensure that they know what lies beyond their target and are very responsible taking care where their bullets land. You need to address the idiots and not throw the baby out with the bath water. Live and let live is a long forgotten motto of this country.
Accidents happen. Sure, there are a few idiots in any endeavor , but the vast majority of gun owners are excellent citizens and conduct themselves with all due respect to their surroundings. In the case of guns they ensure that they know what lies beyond their target and are very responsible taking care where their bullets land. You need to address the idiots and not throw the baby out with the bath water. Live and let live is a long forgotten motto of this country.
The real issue is government ownership of land that legally should have been distributed to private citizens mostly more than 100 years ago.
All that "federal land" should not be federal, it should have been distributed to the people as it was in the eastern states. Much of the problems complained about have one root cause, no one owns the land, so no one cares about it. The typical tragedy of the commons.
All that "federal land" should not be federal, it should have been distributed to the people as it was in the eastern states. Much of the problems complained about have one root cause, no one owns the land, so no one cares about it. The typical tragedy of the commons.
What you're pejoratively referring to as 'Government owned land' many of us prefer to think of as 'public land' that belongs to all of us. Would you really want to see Central Park and Rock Creek Park bulldozed-under so Trump and his fellow 'developers' can gobble up the precious land that we currently all enjoy?
1
When backpacking alone hearing gunshots is terrorizing. My heart skips a beat, I freeze, and I try to locate the source of the gunfire. I have no idea if the shooter has setup the target practice the right way or he/she may be firing upslope with nothing in-between me and their bullets. My experience tells me that most likely the shooter is a clueless amateur. Bullets can travel long ways. I even stopped mountain biking in certain areas because of the occasional gunshots. It is difficult for me to believe that people that fire their weapons in the wilderness don't know that they are unnerving everyone else, and perhaps even creating terror. They do know it but they are not concerned with other users of the public spaces. (Disclosure: I own weapons.)
4
That our great wilderness areas are in no way protected from people with guns, and all that entails (danger, desecration, noise) is profoundly sad. My memories of traveling, and camping, through many of these natural cathedrals are filled with the silence, solitude, and safe haven necessary to commune with the natural world. I had no idea that this had been lost. What have we become? An immeasurable tragedy...
3
What have we come to? So thanks to lax gun laws, and with the blessing of many in Congress, people with guns, including the most high-powered type, are legally allowed to use use our "purple mountain majesty" as their personal dumping grounds, destroy national artifacts, and even kill people with impunity. Some defend all this as just the nature of "rural culture." Sorry. Not everyone who lives in the woods seeks to pothole the trees and shoot with no sense of responsibility toward the hikers and campers in their midst. (And I'll bet they all consider themselves pro-life.) A national disgrace.
3
These "red-blooded" American men seem not to ever make it out of very early adolescence. Truly disgusting, these mostly white males, unmanly consumers of freedom who are so disconnected from its principles that all rights must tilt in their favor, else they feel put upon to act as, god forbid, responsible adults.
Too bad it's been long forgotten that the reaction to guns when first introduced in the West was that they were the weapon of choice for cowards. Using them or keeping them loaded near unarmed non-combatants is the surest sign these are indeed the toys of the truly craven.
Too bad it's been long forgotten that the reaction to guns when first introduced in the West was that they were the weapon of choice for cowards. Using them or keeping them loaded near unarmed non-combatants is the surest sign these are indeed the toys of the truly craven.
2
The bias in this story is pathetic. First, the area was posted "no shooting". The shooter was doing it illegally. Would more laws against the shooting have prevented the already illegal shooting? Ridiculous.
The truth is, for decades, legal areas for target practice have become more and more restrictive and rare. Most communities, including Colorado Springs, do not have public shooting ranges where a hunter can prepare his rifle for hunting season, or a family can enjoy some clay shooting. Most towns along the front range used to have an area of public land where everyone would go shoot and almost every one of them has been deemed "off limits" by the local or federal governments.
Tragedies like these are extremely rare and highly preventable. It's pretty simple to designate an area for shooting.
The truth is, for decades, legal areas for target practice have become more and more restrictive and rare. Most communities, including Colorado Springs, do not have public shooting ranges where a hunter can prepare his rifle for hunting season, or a family can enjoy some clay shooting. Most towns along the front range used to have an area of public land where everyone would go shoot and almost every one of them has been deemed "off limits" by the local or federal governments.
Tragedies like these are extremely rare and highly preventable. It's pretty simple to designate an area for shooting.
The clashes highlighted in this article are:
1) The necessity to hunt for food, versus sport killing
2) Responsible shooters who use backstops, versus those who do not care where their bullets go
3) To destroy rather than protect archaeological treasures
4) Killers versus those who want to live
Normally, laws are created to serve the greater good. However, with powerful and wealthy NRA lobbyists, open carry permits, gun show private sellers not required to perform background checks and the highest gun death toll in the world, U.S. gun laws do not serve the greater good.
However, a few steps can be taken to protect people and artifacts from destruction in U.S. national forests.
1) Ban year-'round hunting. In hunting seasons, clearly define hunting territories by marking trees with large X's. Post at each trailhead notice that it is hunting season, and that hikers should stay out of hunting territories.
2) Define specific practice ranges within national forests, provided with backstops.
3) Enforcement: use drones equipped with thermal imaging technology to locate shooters outside their proscribed zones. When found, send in marshalls to arrest and transport the shooters.
4) Require that the NRA sell liability insurance to all of its members, for coverage of all forest-related mayhem, even that caused by non-members. More damage--higher premiums.
The shooters are doing the damage here. The onus is on them, and lawmakers, to reign them in.
1) The necessity to hunt for food, versus sport killing
2) Responsible shooters who use backstops, versus those who do not care where their bullets go
3) To destroy rather than protect archaeological treasures
4) Killers versus those who want to live
Normally, laws are created to serve the greater good. However, with powerful and wealthy NRA lobbyists, open carry permits, gun show private sellers not required to perform background checks and the highest gun death toll in the world, U.S. gun laws do not serve the greater good.
However, a few steps can be taken to protect people and artifacts from destruction in U.S. national forests.
1) Ban year-'round hunting. In hunting seasons, clearly define hunting territories by marking trees with large X's. Post at each trailhead notice that it is hunting season, and that hikers should stay out of hunting territories.
2) Define specific practice ranges within national forests, provided with backstops.
3) Enforcement: use drones equipped with thermal imaging technology to locate shooters outside their proscribed zones. When found, send in marshalls to arrest and transport the shooters.
4) Require that the NRA sell liability insurance to all of its members, for coverage of all forest-related mayhem, even that caused by non-members. More damage--higher premiums.
The shooters are doing the damage here. The onus is on them, and lawmakers, to reign them in.
1
Shooting in the woods doesn't have to be a big deal as long as people are responsible. That means being aware of what's beyond your target, being courteous, and picking up your trash. Having said that, it's clear there are a lot of shooters who have never learned responsible gun ownership. A basic hunter education or gun safety course is a good place to start.
4
We'd all be better off if there were 1/10 as many guns in the United States. All people have bad days and moments of anger or stupidity. Put a deadly weapon in their hands during one of those moments, and someone could die. With so many deadly weapons floating around, it's inevitable that a little girl shoots her mother, a man accidentally shoots his son, a target shooter kills a hiker, etc. Most countries don't have nearly this many gun deaths. It doesn't have to be this way. It's high time we start ignoring the NRA, and drastically reduce the number and power of guns in this country.
7
RIP Mr. Martin, your senseless death is tragic beyond words.
4
In the photo that accompanies this story, the boy is preparing an hand held throwing device that is used to throw clay targets. The two guns are shot guns. The Number 8 shot typically used for clays loses its lethal velocity in tens of yards. Shooting these guns in the great outdoors is incredibly safe.
I've gone target shooting in the great outdoors with others. The people I know always practice gun safety. They would never shoot without knowing where a bullet would go beyond the target. Most are members of the NRA which expects only the very best behavior from its members.
If you have never been to a gun range in the West, let me tell you what it is like. The people are safety conscious, polite, kind, and very friendly. They will welcome newcomers to the sport. These people would be disgusted with anyone who would damage prehistoric petroglyphs, and would likely want the punishment to be more severe than would be advocated by liberal New Yorkers.
I've gone target shooting in the great outdoors with others. The people I know always practice gun safety. They would never shoot without knowing where a bullet would go beyond the target. Most are members of the NRA which expects only the very best behavior from its members.
If you have never been to a gun range in the West, let me tell you what it is like. The people are safety conscious, polite, kind, and very friendly. They will welcome newcomers to the sport. These people would be disgusted with anyone who would damage prehistoric petroglyphs, and would likely want the punishment to be more severe than would be advocated by liberal New Yorkers.
3
The 2nd Amendment has been around since the founding of the United States, so have guns and ammo. The national parks have been around in some form or fashion for nearly a hundred years now. Has this sort of thing been going on for the last 100 years or is "wasting bullets for fun" a new, rich American habit? Kind of like shouting at hikers because you are asserting your 1st Amendment rights and if you did not they will be taken away from you.
At the very least, the Republican candidates for President should be asked to join a hike in some of these trails. They do not have to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan, but a few days in real trails in Federal land should be a good reality check for these men and their shooting machines.
It is heartbreaking to see the photo of Mr. Martin. This is not a political issue, it is a moral and rational issue.
At the very least, the Republican candidates for President should be asked to join a hike in some of these trails. They do not have to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan, but a few days in real trails in Federal land should be a good reality check for these men and their shooting machines.
It is heartbreaking to see the photo of Mr. Martin. This is not a political issue, it is a moral and rational issue.
7
The problem is not the gun nor the act of shooting. The problem is irresponsible shooting. Using motor vehicles such as motorcycles, ATVs, even boats can be irresponsible and dangerous. I have been recreational shooting on public lands for around ten years now and my friends and I have always maintained a safe shooting area. We are conscious of our surroundings especially the target background. In many cases we are shooting for distance downward at targets in the wide open at around 500 yards with clear view or the entire area. In the areas we shoot we we often place markers on the trails entering the area that there are shooters ahead. We go beyond reasonable expectations in making sure the area is safe. Before leaving we will scour the area of any trash and spent brass. Those is my group have seen from time to time those that are not responsible and will sometimes address the issue. Using public lands for recreational shooting can be a safe and enjoyable activity but must be done safely. Some complain that shooting on public lands damages the environment but how much damage do motor vehicles do to public lands?
1
BLM land is everyone's land and where shooting is allowed.. it should be allowed. Bad apples exist yes. DUI kills a war's worth of Americans... ban using roads? People breaking the law should be ticketed and punished if needed. Enforcement of existing laws. Strange concept for "progressives" I know. They just want to ban and control everything.
Now, Jack Burton, go back to read what has actually been written. Your leap in illogic is breathtaking. People do not go to the highways for peace and quiet, for untrammeled nature and the simple joys of camping, picnicking, toasting marshmallows over an open fire, strumming guitars, riding a trail bike over astonishingly varied trails, reading a book in the shade of trees while sitting on a cushion of pine needles. They don't go to the highways for relief from city, artificial urban life. They go to escape crime, noise, cold uncaring crowds and guns.
One weekend in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, on Wreck Beach, the biggest nude beach in the world, I overheard an old lady politely ask a group of loud and abusive drunks to not throw their beer cans into the sea. In retaliation, one of the drunks jokingly called the RCMP to complain that the old lady near them on the beach was offending them because she was naked and "ugly," The lone Mountie who came listened to both sides, cuffed the four drunks, although they were polite when talking to him, and led them off the beach. That's what I call civilized society.
One weekend in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, on Wreck Beach, the biggest nude beach in the world, I overheard an old lady politely ask a group of loud and abusive drunks to not throw their beer cans into the sea. In retaliation, one of the drunks jokingly called the RCMP to complain that the old lady near them on the beach was offending them because she was naked and "ugly," The lone Mountie who came listened to both sides, cuffed the four drunks, although they were polite when talking to him, and led them off the beach. That's what I call civilized society.
Extremely avid gun supporter here, homes in Nevada and NYC, and the edges our Red Rock National Park is a disgrace with the mess created by target shooters. It's a shame and those responsible give all of us a bad rap. Guns are not toys.
4
The rich dentist who tortured and finally killed the lion in Africa is getting deserved international notoriety. The guy (woman?) who killed the grandfather in our National Forest wihle preparing s'mores for his grandchildren was given a pass until this article? Of course, even if the killer was caught, the NRA would fund his defense. Unions follow their own rules.
6
Was the campfire man wearing orange? You complain about rules. You don't even know them.
When are we going to require gun owners to insure every weapon they purchase against damages, accidents, and theft? It is astounding to me that one cannot drive a car, operate a boat or airplane without insurance but the cause of 35,000 deaths and 100,000 injuries each year in the US are operated with no costs or liability beyond the court system. Unreal.
8
I am a gun enthusiast and I love to shoot as much as the next person. Sounds to me like we have a bunch of irresponsible people giving gun owners a bad name, if you are going to go out shooting clean up after yourself! That is what gives people the evidence necessary to take away our rights also don't go into public areas shooting if you don't have proper weapon control stray bullets travel a long way with a lot of power to still maim and kill.
1
Other than deer hunting season, which requires permit -- under what license are gun owners free to shoot in the wilderness? Is there no place, for those of us who just want some peace and quiet to go without a challenge from a gun owner/
14
Absolute idiocy. Mindless infantile behavior. No excuse. Utter madness.
13
This story is more leftist elitist nonsense, I live here in Utah and you would need to pick up all the trash in 100 square miles of BLM land (disputed shooting area) to equal one alley in New York City. Clean up your own mess before lecturing us on ours.
Where we shoot is the desert about an hour from where the people are, not exactly the Wasatch Mountain range with the hiking trails. Come out and see for yourself before believing this anti rights propaganda. Look at the deaths from any other activity I think all things considered we do better than most others. Including hiking and biking. Sorry we have some "pigs" amongst us, the responsible among us try to clean up after them but some gets by.
Where we shoot is the desert about an hour from where the people are, not exactly the Wasatch Mountain range with the hiking trails. Come out and see for yourself before believing this anti rights propaganda. Look at the deaths from any other activity I think all things considered we do better than most others. Including hiking and biking. Sorry we have some "pigs" amongst us, the responsible among us try to clean up after them but some gets by.
4
Just curious, what do you make of poor Mr. Martin (the s'mores-making, randomly shot and killed camper grandpa in the article)? Collateral damage?
http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2012/10/19/omb-threatens-pittman-robertso...
Sportsmen has contributed over $7B dollars to the federal agency voluntarily (most don't even know the taxes which were voluntarily originated by TRUE conservationists - hunters) and yet the Feds and most States do NOTHING to show any appreciation to the same people paying those taxes! How about a movement to use some of those funds to build safe ranges instead of bike paths???
Sorry to say, this really is NOT a new problem but with the present Administration's attack on all our Constitutional Rights, the LapDog media is very willing to sling mud in any way they can to help those attacks. Well, until it comes to their First Amendment Rights that is.
We have take firearm safety and personal responsibility out of our schools and replaced those basics with an entitlement mentality so what do you expect?
Sportsmen has contributed over $7B dollars to the federal agency voluntarily (most don't even know the taxes which were voluntarily originated by TRUE conservationists - hunters) and yet the Feds and most States do NOTHING to show any appreciation to the same people paying those taxes! How about a movement to use some of those funds to build safe ranges instead of bike paths???
Sorry to say, this really is NOT a new problem but with the present Administration's attack on all our Constitutional Rights, the LapDog media is very willing to sling mud in any way they can to help those attacks. Well, until it comes to their First Amendment Rights that is.
We have take firearm safety and personal responsibility out of our schools and replaced those basics with an entitlement mentality so what do you expect?
4
Which of your Constitutional rights have been attacked? Name one.
Where did you get the idea that schools are an appropriate place to learn about firearm safety?
Irresponsible gun owners are the one's with an entitlement mentality.
Where did you get the idea that schools are an appropriate place to learn about firearm safety?
Irresponsible gun owners are the one's with an entitlement mentality.
1
Perhaps a way can be found to accomodate both sides of this issue such as assigned non shooting area for hikers and gun ranges for shooters to safely shoot in...
I also surmise the 2nd amendment SAVES MORE LIVES in various way including the suppression of tyranny and crime than it ever costs us and as such is worth it...
Can't we all get a long somehow?
I also surmise the 2nd amendment SAVES MORE LIVES in various way including the suppression of tyranny and crime than it ever costs us and as such is worth it...
Can't we all get a long somehow?
1
“SAVES MORE LIVES in various way [sic] including the suppression of tyranny and crime"? Seriously? What tyranny has occurred in the USA which has cost lives? Why are there 30,000 firearms deaths every year in the USA including 10,000 suicides?
“Data, data, data. One cannot make bricks without clay.”
—Sherlock Holmes
“Data, data, data. One cannot make bricks without clay.”
—Sherlock Holmes
I know, I know. Accidents happen all the time.
Last time I was riding my bike at Valley Forge National Park, I accidentally ran over and killed 5 pedestrians. But my right use my bike whenever, wherever and however I want are absolute. If some bystanders think they have the right to walk around willy-nilly in a federal park, they are just liberal, anti-gun trouble-makers.
Last time I was riding my bike at Valley Forge National Park, I accidentally ran over and killed 5 pedestrians. But my right use my bike whenever, wherever and however I want are absolute. If some bystanders think they have the right to walk around willy-nilly in a federal park, they are just liberal, anti-gun trouble-makers.
14
since after 9/11
The number of American deaths caused by terrorism is smaller than 100
The number of American deaths caused by (civilian) guns is in the tens of thousands, ...
Grow up .... take the toys away.
The number of American deaths caused by terrorism is smaller than 100
The number of American deaths caused by (civilian) guns is in the tens of thousands, ...
Grow up .... take the toys away.
20
Julien, plan on packing a lunch...
Julien, no guns were used in the 9/11 attack on New York, Washington, or rural Pennsylvania. That's why they're so safe, protected by the Constitution, and easy to obtain. Guns are not the problem. Box knives are the problem. When terrorists begin swarming the West's antiquities with box knives in hand, then the Republicans and the NRA will take a stand against the desecration of antiquities. Until then, Cabela's, Gander Mountain, and Academy are open 7 days a week for your shopping and shooting convenience. And guns, unlike a bottle of Jack Daniels in most states, can be purchased right after church services on Sunday, should the sermon have so inspired you to embrace your Constitutionally and God-given right to ripping off as many rounds as your checking account can afford before Sunday dinner with the pastor. Why, heck. In Florida, Georgia,South and North Carolina, both Virginias, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Texas, the preacher might likely provide his own shootin' iron, provided he (no wimmin preachers allowed) didn't leave church in such a big hurry he accidentally left his Peacemaker on the pulpit.
I repeat: Box knives. Focus, boy, focus.
I repeat: Box knives. Focus, boy, focus.
1
Wow that's amazing. You gotta back up your statement with facts. Show the study where you found this "tens of thousands". The people need to see this.
1
Surely all of us seek a peaceful and effective resolution to the growing problem. Shooting ranges or strictly designated areas, funded by fees paid by participants would take up little of the vast acreage available. Restrict shooting to these areas, and enforce the proper use of the land. The current situation in untenable and senseless. Gun ownership is not going away overnight, if ever. Indeed, its increasing. Shooting ranges and controlled shooting areas could be managed by the park services or leased to concession operators. This provides a positive solution that could fund itself, and protects the park users from shooting. It's about reducing shooting from the huge expanses to very limited zones. It serves no purpose for any of us to rant and rave about guns and violence, and demand that the problem go away. It’s not going to happen that way---the government is strained at this point to provide park coverage for normal operation. They just don't have the resources to contain such a problem without creative and effective solutions. Surely the important thing here is not to score political points or turn this into the latest unsolvable issue that divides Americans. We are better people than that--we can come up with a solution to deal with the problems of pollution, environmental destruction, and danger to park users, while also giving gun shooters a safe place to exercise their activities.
6
Since there is no room for compromise- I have given up on this issue. Arm everyone in the country- No age limits, no permits, no background checks, sell guns in vending machines, mail a free guns to everyone, let prisoners in prisons have guns. I don't care anymore. NRA you win!
6
Darn, we might get the results we pay our legal system to be doing.
So called clays disintegrate in the rain. There is no need to pick them up.
4
My sentiments exactly---they are biodegradable.
Take 100 acres for a shooting range and safety zone in every park. Fine anybody that dumps or shots outside the area. Fine them for not picking up their brass, too.
Take 100 acres for a shooting range and safety zone in every park. Fine anybody that dumps or shots outside the area. Fine them for not picking up their brass, too.
But are the bullets used to shoot the clays just as capable of killing random people like poor Mr. Martin? And if so, is that not a problem?
1
I suppose we could paraphrase Wayne LaPierre's argument that the only way to fight an idiot with a gun is a hiker with a gun. So...
What could possibly go wrong?
What could possibly go wrong?
8
So a man was killed by these idiots and there is still a debate about closing the area as a shooting range? The extent to which we are in thrall to the NRA is shocking. When will someone have the guts to say no to them?
18
I live in Tucson and many times while mountain biking on Redington Rd. I will hear or see shooters shooting their guns. These shooters are just on the side of the road and it is very discomforting riding through that area. This is not a national park, but a county road. Can you imagine how it feels when you are riding up hill, panting and having to ride through the area with rapid fire and worrying that one of these shooters might like to take target practice on a moving object, like me? Often I am intimidated enough to turn around and end my exercise with no peace and quiet.
13
This is the typical right winger "freedom" to do whatever one wants with no regard for the impact it may have on others. Restrict this kind of disruptive and destructive behavior to specific areas. The same goes for tearing up the landscape with trucks and other off-road vehicles. This is not freedom, it's vandalism and a public nuisance.
16
It's apparent that some people don't get that they have to share the country with 320 million other people. How does the logic work that you get to shoot whatever you want wherever you want whenever you want work in that context?
15
its apparent that some people don't get that they have to share the country with 320 million other people. How does the logic work that you get to walk, bike, or camp anywhere you want, anytime you want work in that context?
*See what I did there? "Logic" works both ways.
*See what I did there? "Logic" works both ways.
Here are the rules for the Baker Draw Designated Shooting Areas at the Arapaho & Roosevelt National Forests Pawnee National Grassland in Colorado:
No clay pigeons allowed.
Rifles and hand guns only.
Alcohol is not permitted.
Firearms shall only be discharged from designated shooting stations.
No tracer rounds or incendiary rounds allowed.
Shoot only at authorized targets. This is limited to paper, cardboard, or metallic targets at Baker Draw.
Wood backing not allowed.
Ensure weapons are unloaded or holstered when moving them between vehicles and the firing line.
Eye and ear protection must be worn at all times while shooting/observing.
No automatic fire or simulated automatic fire “bump firing".
Remove all shell casings, target debris, trash, etc.—Pack it in; Pack it out! Area around the site is closed to shooting to enhance safety.
Also:
"This site was made possible by grants from Colorado Parks & Wildlife and the National Rifle Association. Other critical support was provided by Weld County, Chesapeake Energy, Anadarko, Noble Energy, and the U.S. Army Reserves."
No clay pigeons allowed.
Rifles and hand guns only.
Alcohol is not permitted.
Firearms shall only be discharged from designated shooting stations.
No tracer rounds or incendiary rounds allowed.
Shoot only at authorized targets. This is limited to paper, cardboard, or metallic targets at Baker Draw.
Wood backing not allowed.
Ensure weapons are unloaded or holstered when moving them between vehicles and the firing line.
Eye and ear protection must be worn at all times while shooting/observing.
No automatic fire or simulated automatic fire “bump firing".
Remove all shell casings, target debris, trash, etc.—Pack it in; Pack it out! Area around the site is closed to shooting to enhance safety.
Also:
"This site was made possible by grants from Colorado Parks & Wildlife and the National Rifle Association. Other critical support was provided by Weld County, Chesapeake Energy, Anadarko, Noble Energy, and the U.S. Army Reserves."
11
Slob shooters exercising their God-given all-Merkin right to be turds in the social punchbowl.
There's no lack of such clowns in southeastern Colorado, either. Probably the same jerks that fill up the ditches with beer bottles.
There's no lack of such clowns in southeastern Colorado, either. Probably the same jerks that fill up the ditches with beer bottles.
13
It's illegal to fire weapons anywhere near Saratoga Springs because of the wild fire risks. If this story is credible, which I doubt, the people involved could have their firearms confiscated and pay a heavy fine.
5
Got it, NYT. So Americans can hike but they're not allowed to shoot. As if hikers don't destroy "the environment" either. Been on a lot of hiking trails and have found lots of trash. Y'all need to grow up and jump into the 1780s; the Second Amendment is here to stay. Like the First Amendment. Good thing for the Times, huh?
8
Great. I'd like to do some practice shooting in your backyard, I got an old sofa I really hate. I hope you will respect my rights, huh?
16
Correction. Hikers don't kill people. Somebody dies. Take the toys away.
9
Enough is enough. But still, the NRA enables this lunacy and creates this terrifying environment. The NRA is an organisation that promoted and enables domestic terrorism--plain and simple. It should be treated as such otherwise we have to live with this insanity.
13
I live in a state where shooting on public land is prohibited unless you're a hunter engaged in the sport of hunting during a designated hunting season, in a designated area, and your firearm is of an approved type or caliber. Everyone is aware of the status of the public land at those times, hunters and non-hunters alike. This is reasonable.
There is never a reason to shoot a firearm within range of people, livestock, homes, or cars; and, furthermore, defacing public property with litter of any kind can't be justified. Both are just wrong. Period! ...with a BULLET point!
There is never a reason to shoot a firearm within range of people, livestock, homes, or cars; and, furthermore, defacing public property with litter of any kind can't be justified. Both are just wrong. Period! ...with a BULLET point!
16
In no other civilized nation is this acceptable.
22
Correction, Paulo, ''In no civilized nation is this acceptable.''
14
How many others have the freedoms we enjoy
I've been out on the mesa and heard bullets whistling over my head. When I found the shooter, he said he "didn't know." That is the problem. For these everybody should carry guns anywhere all the time crowd, everyone else's rights are subordinate. Once the bullet leaves the barrel it's not their responsibility.
More guns in the forest means more accidents, more deaths. Does the second amendment really guarantee the right to turn public areas into free fire zones? How ridiculous do things need to get before there is significant pushback?
More guns in the forest means more accidents, more deaths. Does the second amendment really guarantee the right to turn public areas into free fire zones? How ridiculous do things need to get before there is significant pushback?
23
Knowing where the bullet will go once you pull the trigger is a gun-user's responsibility. This is one of the cardinal rules of firearm safety, taught and taken very seriously in hunter-safety classes.
Firearm-users need to be proactive in educating those shooters who have not been raised with or taught through classes the absolute necessity of firearm safety.
Firearm-users need to be proactive in educating those shooters who have not been raised with or taught through classes the absolute necessity of firearm safety.
Totally agree. I used to go to ranges and shoot a variety of weapons. I enjoyed it. These days some people hand their 7 y.o. a 22 who then accidentally shoots his 3 y.o. sister.
I know responsible gun owners. Problem is many aren't. And when any attempt at solving that is mentioned, the NRA starts screaming. A lot of people are killed every year in gun "accidents" that should never happen.
I know responsible gun owners. Problem is many aren't. And when any attempt at solving that is mentioned, the NRA starts screaming. A lot of people are killed every year in gun "accidents" that should never happen.
It would be interesting to compare the I.Q.s of the gun nuts and hikers. It might explain why there can't be a meaningful dialogue between them.
10
Where does the 2nd Amendment gives anyone the right to keep and store ammo?
3
At home.
Do you enjoy your freedom of speech? I know I do but I also know that with the 2nd amendment the 1st is useless
I agree , those who are not aware of there surrounding should be removed from public lands , loud horns, killing thousand of people injuring tens of thousands of people, littering everywhere. you also can not forget the damage they do to public lands, sidewalks , street signs. I think you many want to look at automobiles when you read the comment on this article. chances are more people have been killed going to public land driving a auto than were ever hurt on public lands. I have grown up in the Adirondacks here in New York (large state owned park) and have found many good reasons why we rural folk!! have for guns. but it would take a novel to list all of them. As far as trash being left behind, most of us use common sense and take in along with take out. It only takes a few , as they say, to make things bad. Please remember us country folk, can our own food and reuse, unlike the city which uses more packaging to get her products to market in one day than we would use in a month.
5
I live right outside of Pike National forest which is an area where most of the violations have taken place. I have hiked, hunted or camped at least 90% of the area within Pike National forest and am more familiar with the areas than the CPW. For someone to say from New York City that you shouldn't be shooting on National Forest property is absolutely ignorant and you are a flatlander/yuppie like Radishgirl. I can guarantee you have far more shootings in NY than you do Pike National Forest and I consider NY dangerous. I have never had a problem to where I have feared for my life from people recreational shooting. Most areas are dense and people shooting are usually far from any campers or hikers and have a backstop. With that said I have found lots of trash and shot up vehicles. These vehicles are ones that no one is going to pay up to 1k to pull out so they become "part of the mountain" and the trash is usually from High School/College kids have not cleaned up from shooting skeet and I think that is something that needs to be addressed. If you are looking for a story look at the dirtbike and 4wheel rider accidents within Pike National Forest. I have had friends or have heard of people injured and dying from their accidents in Pike National Forest. I would be more afraid of getting t-boned from a dirtbike than I would being shot.
9
Somebody died. Your argument is not valid anymore. Game over. Take the toys away.
6
We've gone from the right to bear arms to the right to terrify, the right to practice discourtesy, the right to destroy, the right to pillage. The next step is the right to shoot each other. Let us end the madness and practice courtesy at the very least. Give the quiet man a place to be quiet.
18
The world has had it too good for too long we need to go back to survival of the fittest i.e. whinning over what someone else does that's never effected you personally has to stop I got shot point blank in the chest and it wasn't in any forest it was in a city where some gang banger trying to get in a gang had to shoot some random person me I died five times that day and still joined the army and deployed to Iraq. Guns are humans greatest tool with a gun I can protect and feed my family and protect my personal freedoms its not the weapon being used people it's the person using the weapon that matters
We already have the right the shoot each other, at least if you live in a "Stand Your Ground" state.
Here we have another example of how the Republicans are turning over the country to barbarians, who in turn vote to keep their indulgent masters in power.
13
It's perfectly reasonable to want to protect ancient artifacts. What isn't reasonable is to ban hunting and shooting in a million acre area, when the artifacts are located on only a tiny fraction of that. In the vast majority of cases, conservation is superior to preservation.
5
@RaceBaiterGinsburg
I you really have the courage of your convictions why are you hiding behind an insulting moniker?
Who is suggesting a million acre ban?
What reasonable citizens are asking for is common sense and responsibility.
I you really have the courage of your convictions why are you hiding behind an insulting moniker?
Who is suggesting a million acre ban?
What reasonable citizens are asking for is common sense and responsibility.
1
It seems increasingly that gun enthusiasts' rights trump all.
5
It is forbidding to realize how seriously the shooters' take their gun rights over other forms of activities. First and foremost, the preservation of historical and present day human endeavors (non-violent) should precede their rights.
4
I hope no one is actually picking up "clay pigeons." Clays are made of pitch and crushed limestone, and disintegrate as they get wet...
4
It's simple math: More people, more stupid people; more guns, more stupid people with guns.
11
The urban/rural divide rears its head again. I live in a remote rural area, where everyone has a gun, or several, for varmints or hunting. None of the ranchers or farmers around me go off shooting willy-nilly for the fun of it. However, there are lots of urban dwellers who come to our area to have their fun with guns. No road sign is safe, and I have seen trees that have been shot down, all in the name of some nameless urge or desire to destroy something with a firearm. Don't blame us rural folks for this stuff.
11
The reaction in Colorado to the murder of Glenn Martin has been pathetic. Overall the media has been incredibly timid when reporting on the shooting, acting as if it was just a matter of Mr. Martin being in the wrong place at the wrong time, as opposed to the killer's complete disregard and indifference about the consequences of his excercising his "god given right" to shoot his rifle whenever and wherever he wants.
16
While the right to bear arms is protected, it is only to allow people to participate in state based militias. There is no right to go out and shoot those guns, especially on public lands. Firing guns on public lands should be barred.
8
I enjoy camping, hiking, and backpacking on public lands, and grew up doing so. I also enjoy hunting and have practiced shooting skills on public land as an adult.
I learned as a young person that safety is of the utmost importance and should be paramount in the mind of anyone using a firearm. There is also a burden put on a gun-user to make sure your actions do not impede on others who are using the land. That includes using commonsense, non-negotiable safety practices, but also realizing that firearms can be unintentionally intimidating. With that in mind, I do not target shoot in areas with popular hiking trails or when others are camping or otherwise enjoying themselves in close proximity to me. That's just common sense.
It is up to those of us who use firearms to hold others accountable when in the backcountry. It's not always easy to do, but we need to learn how to approach and respectfully educate those we witness not following the rules of firearm safety, courtesy, and environmental ethics.
I learned as a young person that safety is of the utmost importance and should be paramount in the mind of anyone using a firearm. There is also a burden put on a gun-user to make sure your actions do not impede on others who are using the land. That includes using commonsense, non-negotiable safety practices, but also realizing that firearms can be unintentionally intimidating. With that in mind, I do not target shoot in areas with popular hiking trails or when others are camping or otherwise enjoying themselves in close proximity to me. That's just common sense.
It is up to those of us who use firearms to hold others accountable when in the backcountry. It's not always easy to do, but we need to learn how to approach and respectfully educate those we witness not following the rules of firearm safety, courtesy, and environmental ethics.
10
Another gun-in-park story. #nosehillgentlemen
My fellow North Americans, this is the press the gun nuts generate north of the border.
www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/calgary/nose-hill-gentlemen-pro-gun-letter-spar...
My fellow North Americans, this is the press the gun nuts generate north of the border.
www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/calgary/nose-hill-gentlemen-pro-gun-letter-spar...
3
It appears that the so-called 2nd Amendment "right" to bear arms is being taken to increasingly bold and selfish levels. An "Emergency Halt" of target shooting in all National Forests sounds like a good idea, at least in areas not designated for such activities. Thank you NYT for following this story and for printing a beautiful photo of Mr. Martin.
5
This is exactly the type of 'throw the baby out with the bath water' mentality I'm talking about - a draconian solution to ban shooting in all national forests to protect artifacts that reside on a fraction of a percentage of that land.
3
Recreational park users leave just as much trash and waste as the shooters your article seeks to demonize as part of your broader anti-gun bias. Boaters jump trash, operate their craft irresponsibly every weekend. Fact of the matter is that more people will be killed this weekend in Chicago, LA, NYC etc than in all of the national and state parks and those are the places with all of those useless but "feel good, common sense" gun laws.
I support the Park Service constructing more public ranges and staffing them with competent RSOs and instructors. That would be a practical common sense solution but since your real point was to advocate banning guns in public lands, you couldn't go there.
I support the Park Service constructing more public ranges and staffing them with competent RSOs and instructors. That would be a practical common sense solution but since your real point was to advocate banning guns in public lands, you couldn't go there.
8
People clinging to guns and religion because of lack of opportunities and economic hardship. We have heard this one before. What a demeaning idea. It is not true, of course. Never happens. Some elitist liberal rant ...
5
What's the big deal with killing things or blowing things up? The noise alone is a reason to shun this juvenile behavior.
Responsible target shooting on public land is legal. Irresponsible behavior is prevalent everywhere and in every activity. Please don't assume that all shooters are vandals. A portion of sales tax from hunting and fishing equipment go to pay for wild land protection and recovery. This includes guns and ammo. There are plenty of public lands closed to firearms use.
9
Somebody died because of someone else 's legal right to have fun. The law should change. Take the toys away.
1
I've noticed an increasing number of backpackers seeking "solitude and peace" while hiking with earphones on and even worse playing music on a portable speakers while hiking both alone and in groups.
6
Should you have the right to go target shooting anywhere you like on public land? No, no more than I have the right to ride my horse anywhere I please on public land, or my brother his Harley, or anyone the right to hike willy-nilly over places such as The Wave or other controlled-access irreplaceable lands.
Should parks, when practical, offer designated, safe (backstop, etc.) controlled areas where shooting is permissible (and where hiking, horseback riding, etc. are not)? Sure. But
Your errant rifle shot carries a great deal more danger than if I were to ride my horse stampede-speed right over you!
Should parks, when practical, offer designated, safe (backstop, etc.) controlled areas where shooting is permissible (and where hiking, horseback riding, etc. are not)? Sure. But
Your errant rifle shot carries a great deal more danger than if I were to ride my horse stampede-speed right over you!
9
Nothing makes me madder than fellow shooters who shoot trash and do not clean up after themselves. Anyone caught abusing the rights they have should forfeit their guns, and be banned from the parks.
9
I recently moved from rural So. Oregon, neighbors popping off rounds from their porches at varying hours between 9 pm and midnight being one irritant that I moved away from. Very familiar with lots of the stories told in this article. Though I never feared for my life I was very anxious about my dog, particularly around Christmas when the rate of shooting would spike (what better gift than ammo?).
The most galling thing to me was the trash and filth that shooters would leave behind in their favorite BLM shooting areas. Absolutely disgusting. No respect for the land or their fellow citizens who might also want to enjoy the outdoors.
The most galling thing to me was the trash and filth that shooters would leave behind in their favorite BLM shooting areas. Absolutely disgusting. No respect for the land or their fellow citizens who might also want to enjoy the outdoors.
12
The death of Glenn Martin is horrific.
Unfortunately, intentionally setting up a non-gun versus pro-gun debate like this article does is probably the wrong approach. How to prevent the future existence of ignorant shooters like the one who killed Glenn Martin should be the focus. Arguing gun versus no-gun is a lose/lose argument that just further polarizes our society.
Unfortunately, intentionally setting up a non-gun versus pro-gun debate like this article does is probably the wrong approach. How to prevent the future existence of ignorant shooters like the one who killed Glenn Martin should be the focus. Arguing gun versus no-gun is a lose/lose argument that just further polarizes our society.
5
Gun vs non gun is the right discussion ins absolutely all of the civilized world, where this debate has taken place 10 to 20 ago and has ended like the ones on cigarettes, motorcycle helmets and safety belts: protect citizens against themselves. A father died. Take the toys away.
1
I live very close to the Jefferson National Forest in Virginia. The Forest Service maintains two excellent shooting ranges near major population areas. One is just a couple of miles from where I live. It's covered in trigger trash as described, but it's contained to the designated target areas. It's a perfect place to zero your sights before hunting season, take target practice, teach young people how to shoot safely and it's free. Result? Very few people go up into the forest for recreational shooting. We need more of that nationwide.
10
Well,I am unfortunately on the BLM and the US Forest Service's side on this one. Here again,it comes down to irrresponsible people making it bad not only for the people that want to shoot their guns safely and responsibily,but for the fragile landscape,wildlife and for the beautifully ancient artifacts left behind,i.e petroglyphs and pictographs carved and painted on the rocks. If you think carving or spray painting your name on one of these ancient writings is bad,a bullet is worse because now there is permament damage and ruins it for the rest of us and future generations to enjoy. So, you gun lovers that think you have a right to use these public lands as target practice,think again,pretty soon,if the BLM and the US Forest Service have their way,these lands will not only be closed off to you,but to the rest of us and you will have nobody to blame but yourselves.
6
"So, you gun lovers that think you have a right to use these public lands as target practice,think again,pretty soon,if the BLM and the US Forest Service have their way,these lands will not only be closed off to you,but to the rest of us and you will have nobody to blame but yourselves."
So you land owners are the ones who are blocking the access to use "My National Forest". You are the ones who have closed off half of our National Forest due to the private property and roads . I cannot tell you how many times I have tried to hike in National Forest but is closed due to the individuals that live around the area. So they only person to blame is you. I hope they make your area into a wilderness area so you cant drive to your house. They have done that in Colorado.
So you land owners are the ones who are blocking the access to use "My National Forest". You are the ones who have closed off half of our National Forest due to the private property and roads . I cannot tell you how many times I have tried to hike in National Forest but is closed due to the individuals that live around the area. So they only person to blame is you. I hope they make your area into a wilderness area so you cant drive to your house. They have done that in Colorado.
1
I have a right to not have guns near me or to have to fear for my life because of people carrying guns. It trumps the gun nut's "right" to carry a lethal weapon.
13
I guess you don't believe in the right of self defense?
2
No you don't. There is no such right here I the USA.
Interestingly enough, they say exactly the opposite. But I agree with you.
2
..I think if the gunnies want to shoot at anything, anywhere, anytime they should be mandated to make their first shot a “selfie shot”.
10
No, shooters do not and should not have the same rights as four-wheelers, mountain bikers or backpackers. Four-wheelers, mountain bikers or backpackers pose no danger to anyone more than a foot away. A bullet, on the other hand, can carry hundreds of yards and can be lethal. Target shooting shooting should be confined to ranges or other specifically designated areas. Now as always, their right to shoot ends where my life begins.
16
I am an avid hiker, but I -- and many other avid hikers -- know what they are getting into when they hike in national forests. They are not parks like Yellowstone and Yosemite. Except in areas designated as wilderness, they are managed for all forms of public use and consumption -- that is why they are managed by USDA and not NPS. During hunting season, hikers know that they should wear blaze orange and beware or otherwise avoid National Forests (and state parks for that matter.) And if gun owners want to responsibly target shoot outside of hunting season, fine. Responsible is the key word. Personally, I would love to see more wilderness areas designated so that us hikers have some guaranteed solitude and the wildlife a refuge and then the hunters/loggers can have their own areas.
5
Leaving behind shells, cartons, targets, even rounds in the dirt constitutes littering and should be treated as such by imposing fines.
9
Mr Martin's death really saddens me because it was senseless and traumatic for his daughter and grandchildren to witness. Don't be surprised if the kids eventually show signs of PTSD. This story conjures memories of the Brady Bill passed in 1994. If Mr. Martin had been a political figure, like James Brady, would a new gun bill be drafted addressing the use of weapons on public land ? What does it take to get a bill drafted and passed ? Must we wait for high profile people to be killed to make headway ? A civil society is not civil as long as people's lives are weighted.
8
You should take it upon yourself to find out what it takes to get a bill drafted and passed and then go do it! If you are so concerned - and rightly so - do something about it. Don't wait for the government to initiate the process.
Just do it!
Just do it!
OK this is not cool at all.
You have these "gun rights activists" who are always reminding us that they need their guns for self defense now think they have the right to a gun for use as a glorifed toy? Nope, no you don't. Guns aren't toys. You don't get to play with them with reckless abandon in public parks. Grow up, children, and quit leaning on the NRA to bully the non-gun owners.
You have these "gun rights activists" who are always reminding us that they need their guns for self defense now think they have the right to a gun for use as a glorifed toy? Nope, no you don't. Guns aren't toys. You don't get to play with them with reckless abandon in public parks. Grow up, children, and quit leaning on the NRA to bully the non-gun owners.
12
My husband and I just drove through some of the most beautiful scenery in the world, the Eastern Sierras. This should be a prime destination for international tourism, on a par with the Alps. Instead it is an economic wasteland of dying small towns whose inhabitants don't have the business sense to open a single decent restaurant for the tourists speeding past them on the long drive from Mammoth Lakes to LA. But all the pickup trucks have a gun rack and the signs in the locked-up state parks are peppered with bullet holes. We found a solitary Indian tourist who, I am sure, vowed never to return, so spooked was he by the local culture of violence. So I guess guns are more important than a decent livelihood.
10
I'm sorry that there are no croissants or herbal teas in the Eastern Sierras there Mor. It must have been just a horrible experience for you.
But. Tell me. Where do you live? I would like to come by your town, assess things there and then tell you what to do and how to live.
But. Tell me. Where do you live? I would like to come by your town, assess things there and then tell you what to do and how to live.
7
The prime, easy access areas of the eastern sierra are in fact international tourism destinations - whitney, rock creek, mammoth, june, and in particular tioga pass/tulomne meadows all draw a steady stream of travelers from all over the world. Less so for the rest of the 395 corridor, but that's due to the fact that most people aren't looking to climb 3000-5000 of vertical on a dusty, hot trail to get the goods when they can do so with less effort down the highway an hour or two. Yes there is a distinct lack of good eats along the road, but that has absolutely nothing to do with anything related to this article or guns or shooting in general and having spent a very large amount of time in the area I have never experienced any issues related to guns or gun owners or heard of anyone else having any such issues. Yes it's a rural area and some of the locals, particularly ranchers and farmers with long family ties to the area, are politically and socially conservative, and I can see that rubbing some people the wrong way me included, but the idea that anyone avoids the eastern sierra because of its "culture of violence" is absurd.
1
This, if true and I doubt it wasn't sensationalized , is a mere FRACTION of what happens in Detroit and Chicago each and every day or night. Put your outrage where it belongs.
9
I learned to shoot as a young boy and spent countless hours 'putting lead downrange'. I graduated from my rifles to assault weapons as an Army Ranger. I have been a member of the NRA for most of my life. With that background, the idea that people are out shooting in National Parks where people are hiking, backpacking, and camping is outrageous. Guns don't kill people, but idiots with guns sure do. Shooting in a shared area such as those described in the article is something that should never be happening. I understand the love of shooting, but I do not understand that love of shooting in an area where other people could possibly be 'downrange'. I believe in the right to of private individuals to own guns. At the same time I can't get my head around the idea of people firing their weapons without a clear field of view, an impenetrable backstop, and absolute surety that no one is 180 degrees of their point of aim. This isn't even addressing the idea of people having to fear for their lives when they go for a walk in theh woods. That is just plain crazy.
13
While I respect that you are personally a responsible gun owner, if you are member of the NRA, you are using your political power to empower and encourage the most irresponsible gun ownership.
10
I take serious disagreement with this article. I actually live on the edge of the Utah trust school land where they claim this is going on and it's pure lies. I would hear the massive barrage of shooting they claim happens here and it doesn't. I shoot here all the time and I rarely see anyone shooting here. It is legal and lawful to target shoot here and no the place is not littered with garbage and refuse from shooters either. The spot where people go to shoot is maybe 1/2 mile from my back door, I am pretty sure I would hear the steady gunfire if there was any to hear. Typical anti gun rant by some gun hating commie liberals. If you don't believe me come here yourself. It's called Israel Canyon and you take StillWater drive and go west right off of Redwood road.
7
Huh? There's one reference to that land and it's in the caption to a picture. The article is about shooting on federal land -- national forests & BLM land.
3
These people are lying about their experiences? I am willing to take what you say about your own practices as you state them, but your unwillingness to accept that people are subject to what is described in this article is ignorant.
4
Why would I want to go near anyplace where I would be referred to as a commie liberal?
1
I grew up around guns, own guns now, and have spent my entire life in some of the most gun friendly areas of the country. I see the appeal. That being said your right to own and operate a firearm should end when my families trip to our local National Forest ends with my family lying terrified on the floor of our camping tent. You would think we were camping in a war zone. Irresponsible and arrogant behavior is becoming the new normal for gun owners and I am sick of it.
19
Millions and millions of acres apparently is not enough for the gun grabbers and their media pals at he NYT. You would think this was Antietam battlefield from the overly dramatic way the story is written. Certainly it's tragic that someone was killed by a stray bullet but many more die each year from auto accidents. A few are even killed bears but nobody is out to ban bears.
9
Tipping point has been reached, guns kill more in the US than autos. You're welcome.
2
Then there is the cross bow bunch. Mom and Dad have put the rifle in one place in the house and the bullets (under lock and key) in another part of the house.
Little Johnny is all of a sudden sixteen years old and the bows are not under lock and key.
Lived in a rural place (village) years ago.
A plastic version of Bambi's mother was the target.
Could he hit it for the life of him? No.
Little Johnny is all of a sudden sixteen years old and the bows are not under lock and key.
Lived in a rural place (village) years ago.
A plastic version of Bambi's mother was the target.
Could he hit it for the life of him? No.
3
The inability for people to build safe places to shoot, primarily because of environmental and not-in-my-backyard limitations is a major factor for people heading out to the "boonies" to shoot. Yes, littering is a problem, but that holds true with knuckleheads in any outdoor activity.
As for noise pollution, many places do not allow the use of suppressors to knock down the volume. Many countries in Europe mandate the use of suppressors. It is considered "polite". Until that part of the NFA is repealed, we have to deal with very loud shooting.
As for noise pollution, many places do not allow the use of suppressors to knock down the volume. Many countries in Europe mandate the use of suppressors. It is considered "polite". Until that part of the NFA is repealed, we have to deal with very loud shooting.
9
The underlying theme here is the power dynamic. If you run across someone in the woods with a gun, there are no police or witnesses for hours in any direction and they've got the gun. In such a situation, they have the power and you don't; there is no law to look to or authority to appeal to. They get to do what they want and you will do as they say. Period.
Of course, that power kind of power will be horribly abused. They can act as negligently and dangerously as they want, destroy wilderness and things that don't belong to them; leave trash and blown-out targets of every shape and size wherever they like; and threaten anyone that opposes them (both implicitly and explicitly). The only limit they have on their conduct is whether or not it's fun.
I grew up in a small mountain town and have dealt with this dynamic and attitude most of my life. I guarantee you that every time one of these encounter occurs, you have some hillbilly redneck chuckling to himself for a week about how he really gotta stick to it that Obama-lovin' tree hugger.
Of course, that power kind of power will be horribly abused. They can act as negligently and dangerously as they want, destroy wilderness and things that don't belong to them; leave trash and blown-out targets of every shape and size wherever they like; and threaten anyone that opposes them (both implicitly and explicitly). The only limit they have on their conduct is whether or not it's fun.
I grew up in a small mountain town and have dealt with this dynamic and attitude most of my life. I guarantee you that every time one of these encounter occurs, you have some hillbilly redneck chuckling to himself for a week about how he really gotta stick to it that Obama-lovin' tree hugger.
19
What century are we living in?
6
In Santa Barbara County I was cutting down a Coulter Pine after a fire had killed the tree, this was under the Forest Service Permit which allowed cutting, and as I went thru the tree with my chainsaw I cut several bullets in half. That was in 1996.
Later that year a fee was put in place to allow people to drive and hike, and whatever, in the National Forests and all of a sudden the sound of machine gun fire and single shots (usually signs) went way down. I had opposed the Recreation fee at first but after the gunfire stopped I changed my mind and supported it. I was living is an old shack on Little Pine after being disabled and the mountain air and workouts were helping. People came up and fired off automatic weapons in the fog when they couldn't see fifty feet in front of them so often that it was nerve wracking.
Recently I was camping near Mt Rainier and the ground was littered with spent shells of all types as well as unburied toilet paper, cans and bottles (most of them had bullet holes) and on the Olympic Peninsula some moron fired off a rifle right near my camp and close to a trailhead where dozens and dozens of hikers had left their cars. So many people using this area and still this guy has to fire off his gun nearby. Why didn't he drive up one of the less frequently used roads in the National Forest?
We packed up and left. The guns and the unburied excrement were about as disgusting as any behavior I'd ever seen in inner city Los Angeles.
Later that year a fee was put in place to allow people to drive and hike, and whatever, in the National Forests and all of a sudden the sound of machine gun fire and single shots (usually signs) went way down. I had opposed the Recreation fee at first but after the gunfire stopped I changed my mind and supported it. I was living is an old shack on Little Pine after being disabled and the mountain air and workouts were helping. People came up and fired off automatic weapons in the fog when they couldn't see fifty feet in front of them so often that it was nerve wracking.
Recently I was camping near Mt Rainier and the ground was littered with spent shells of all types as well as unburied toilet paper, cans and bottles (most of them had bullet holes) and on the Olympic Peninsula some moron fired off a rifle right near my camp and close to a trailhead where dozens and dozens of hikers had left their cars. So many people using this area and still this guy has to fire off his gun nearby. Why didn't he drive up one of the less frequently used roads in the National Forest?
We packed up and left. The guns and the unburied excrement were about as disgusting as any behavior I'd ever seen in inner city Los Angeles.
8
That's what happens when campers flood undesignated areas and leave trash behind. Don't forget the fires.
Increasing numbers of people are showing themselves to be irresponsible gun owners, and are making it easier for the rest of us to demand changes to gun laws.
Gun activists should address their anger accordingly and look for ways to help their fellow gun owners mitigate that irresponsibility. Until then, the rest of us will continue to demand sensible changes to gun laws, up to and including banning them outright.
We have rights, too, whether gun activists like it or not.
Gun activists should address their anger accordingly and look for ways to help their fellow gun owners mitigate that irresponsibility. Until then, the rest of us will continue to demand sensible changes to gun laws, up to and including banning them outright.
We have rights, too, whether gun activists like it or not.
11
Yes, and we gun enthusiasts have rights too, whether antigun activists like it or not.
5
This is nothing compared to what is legal in Florida. Even if you live in a neighborhood surrounded by other houses. you can build a gun range in your back yard.
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/want_to_set_up_a_back_yard_shooti...
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/want_to_set_up_a_back_yard_shooti...
4
First, don't lump hunters and shooters together - they are often not the same type of gun owner.
Second, I live in Colorado; own a rifle and shotgun that are used as tools for hunting; and I lived adjacent to national forest that has major shooting problems. The shooters regularly: left litter (bullet casings, targets, etc), fired from a county road down a hiking trail that locals use, fired towards a house that wasn't visible from their vantage point, etc. A neighbor found a bullet in her front yard. People like these shooters are absolutely dangerous. No one should pretend otherwise. This is a menace. The difference in danger levels between shooting and any other form of recreation on public lands - ATVs, motorcycles, mountain biking, hiking - is clear: an irresponsible shooter can send a bullet over a mile and have no idea where people are in that landscape. That is a completely different type of recreation that should be regulated, period. No other form of recreation has the potential for long-distance damage. Shooters from the suburbs who head into the hills will not know the area well enough to know where the trails and homes are and some of them don't seem to care. Establish public shooting ranges and, if people don't like that, they should go join a gun club.
Second, I live in Colorado; own a rifle and shotgun that are used as tools for hunting; and I lived adjacent to national forest that has major shooting problems. The shooters regularly: left litter (bullet casings, targets, etc), fired from a county road down a hiking trail that locals use, fired towards a house that wasn't visible from their vantage point, etc. A neighbor found a bullet in her front yard. People like these shooters are absolutely dangerous. No one should pretend otherwise. This is a menace. The difference in danger levels between shooting and any other form of recreation on public lands - ATVs, motorcycles, mountain biking, hiking - is clear: an irresponsible shooter can send a bullet over a mile and have no idea where people are in that landscape. That is a completely different type of recreation that should be regulated, period. No other form of recreation has the potential for long-distance damage. Shooters from the suburbs who head into the hills will not know the area well enough to know where the trails and homes are and some of them don't seem to care. Establish public shooting ranges and, if people don't like that, they should go join a gun club.
11
It's quite simple. Firing ranges should be created as the only place to shoot. Anyone caught shooting outside these designated places in parks should immediately lose their gun license, be blacklisted from owning guns (as a result of demonstrating their inability to act responsibly with a deadly weapon) and charged with reckless endangerment. Should they find the person who accidentally shot Glenn Martin, they should be charged with manslaughter, as should all who are shooters in such "accidental" deaths. What do we do with motorists who "accidentally" run up on the sidewalk and kill someone? We don't wave it off as a terrible tragedy we can't do anything about. Licenses are taken away, charges are filed. Hiding behind the second amendment is pretty empty when a grandfather lies dead because some idiot was careless.
9
fortunately, we don't need gun licenses here (unless you're lookin into owning an NFA item). In most states, all that's required for gun ownership is being at least 18 for a rifle/shotgun and no felonies or domestic violence issues and voila, you can take your rifle/shotgun home with you after passing a background check.
I almost took your comment seriously, then saw your location.
I almost took your comment seriously, then saw your location.
1
You've fingered a major problem. This the United States where our much misinterpreted Second Amendment has been interpreted to mean that every non-felonious, sane citizen is entitled to a firearm of almost any type as a matter of right, without any license whatever. We do not issue licenses for firearms, so there is no way to rescind a non-existent firearms license and so to reduce the number of rude, armed, bullies by one.
I always make me laugh and sad at the same time. Why do weak people who are basically afraid of life ,change, black folks,Spanish people, and whatever else they can think of. HIDING behind the 2nd amendment which DOES not state that individuals have the right to a gun. what it does state is that we have the right to form militias and to bear arms as part of our right of protection of home and family. And before I hear all the backlash about race or people not being afraid... as far as I know fear is the only thing that activates a person fight or flight instinct.
3
In some jurisdictions, shot is steel, not lead, to reduce the environmental impact. Certainly steel is less effective as it is less dense and so disperses at a shorter range. Bullets are still by and large, made of lead. In both cases though, regardless of whether casings are recovered and disposed of, the projectile is not, and cannot be, recovered. Lead is toxic, not just to humans but to all flora and fauna.
How is it that public land can be used, legitimately under the law, as a public dumping ground? For toxic waste at that?
PS I grew up in a small town surrounded by forest and wildlife, including a 2000sq mile park. Hunters I know would be outraged by the behavior described.
How is it that public land can be used, legitimately under the law, as a public dumping ground? For toxic waste at that?
PS I grew up in a small town surrounded by forest and wildlife, including a 2000sq mile park. Hunters I know would be outraged by the behavior described.
7
California is phasing in a new law that by 2019 requires all hunters to use non-lead bullets. A major reason to justify this is to protect scavengers like condors from being poisoned by lead in carases. Some hunters everywhere now use all copper bullets (roughly twice the cost of lead bullets) because they are supposed to be more effective than lead, at least at short to medium ranges. Target bullets can still be lead. Steel shot is required in many areas when hunting waterfowl because the lead shot at the bottom in water is toxic to birds feeding on the bottom.
1
Is it just me, or do these two statements seem rather contradictory:
"When federal agencies have proposed closing areas to shooting, the National Rifle Association and other shooting groups have objected, urging members to write letters and attend meetings to keep the land open to guns.
[but]
'Just the same as there should be areas on public lands for people to go mountain biking or mountain climbing, there should be areas for shooters,' said Lars Dalseide, an N.R.A. spokesman.
There "should be areas for shooters," say the NRA spokesman, while the NRA opposes regulations to establish such areas. Guns are dangerous and limiting them to areas where they won't injure other citizens or damage endangered wildlife or ancient monuments seems only reasonable to me. It even seems reasonable to Mr. Dalseide. So why doesn't the NRA support such a policy?
"When federal agencies have proposed closing areas to shooting, the National Rifle Association and other shooting groups have objected, urging members to write letters and attend meetings to keep the land open to guns.
[but]
'Just the same as there should be areas on public lands for people to go mountain biking or mountain climbing, there should be areas for shooters,' said Lars Dalseide, an N.R.A. spokesman.
There "should be areas for shooters," say the NRA spokesman, while the NRA opposes regulations to establish such areas. Guns are dangerous and limiting them to areas where they won't injure other citizens or damage endangered wildlife or ancient monuments seems only reasonable to me. It even seems reasonable to Mr. Dalseide. So why doesn't the NRA support such a policy?
6
Let's put this in perspective. There are 654,885,389 acres of public lands in the US. 20 tons of trash collected annually is approximately one tenth of one ounce of trash per acre. Roughly a teaspoon of dirt per acre each year. That's all manner of trash, of course, whether someone has shot at it or not, and even having been shot at does not mean the same person deposited it. I would guess this much trash is collected per 20 feet of US highway annually.
2
Read it again..20 tons from one area in Utah.
4
With over half a billion acres of land, why are so many shooters discharging their weapons in the areas where they are most likely to come in contact with other people, along trails, near homes, etc? Why are so many firing on cultural heritage sites? Why can't they play with their guns in the more remote areas? We know that automobiles are dangerous, that's why we limit their use to roads, making it easier for pedestrians to avoid them (although not entirely, unfortunately). If gun freedom is more important than safety in public places, why not let shooters play in our malls and at our baseball stadiums. Heck, we could have a great time watching expert marksman knock down the foul balls.
The new normal that we allowed.
3
We're we all told as children at one time or another that when given a special privilege, if we behaved badly, we'd spoil the chance for others to enjoy that privilege?
Indiscriminate shooting around others, leaving tons of shot-up trash behind, destroying our archaeological heritage, and killing an innocent means it's time to end that privilege. It was never a right.
Indiscriminate shooting around others, leaving tons of shot-up trash behind, destroying our archaeological heritage, and killing an innocent means it's time to end that privilege. It was never a right.
9
The term "parklike" evokes the vision of a pristine area with just the sounds of kids' voices and the sounds of burbling brooks. Nowhere in that vision is the crack of gunfire, the blowing of warning whistles or the tripping over trash carelessly left after target practice. It is time that legislation protects park users from those who think every place they go is a suitable place to discharge a weapon. This is our last chance, these gun nuts are messing it up.
7
Teddy Roosevelt would disagree with you as the president who advocated the creation of the national park network. Then again he also liked trophy hunting. He must have been an evil and degenerate man. We should remove all references to him from our history books.
3
I spend a lot of time in a national forest. I am used to hunters and have no problem with them. But a couple of weeks ago I heard volleys, like maybe 'target practice'. It was very unsettling. Were they drunk? Were they careless? Inexperienced? In what direction were they shooting? Going from relaxed an enjoying the woods to apprehensive and on alert changed the day for me. I accept that "gun rights" are part of Americana. But rights or not, target practice belongs on a range.
5
As a former European, I can, of course, be easily accused of failing to empathize with inhabitants of the “gun culture”. Well, guilty as charged! Having gotten this out of the way, let me just express my astonishment why an activity that destroys natural silence, creates garbage, and even poses a mortal threat to others, would have to take place in national parks instead of, say, in abandoned industrial areas, junk car yards, or Superfund sites. Plenty of those around!
13
I have been hiking, backpacking camping, hunting, fishing and shooting on Utah's public lands for 40 years. I know exactly where that picture was taken at the top of this article. In all those years, I can remember having a negative experience with recreational shooters on only two occassions - and neither of those incidents represented a danger to me, but to people in their own party.
Shooting is illegal in National Parks. Recreational shooters will only go to BLM and Forest Service lands with easy access and they tend to concentrate in limited areas, so the backcountry remains largely untrammeled. I don't think most people who are not from the West understand how immense and empty most of the public lands are. There are informal ranges near most towns with some shells and targets left behind, but those areas were not pristine in the first place, and they amount to much less than 1% of the total public lands.
If shooters are bothering you in the wilderness, you are not really in the wilderness.
Shooting is illegal in National Parks. Recreational shooters will only go to BLM and Forest Service lands with easy access and they tend to concentrate in limited areas, so the backcountry remains largely untrammeled. I don't think most people who are not from the West understand how immense and empty most of the public lands are. There are informal ranges near most towns with some shells and targets left behind, but those areas were not pristine in the first place, and they amount to much less than 1% of the total public lands.
If shooters are bothering you in the wilderness, you are not really in the wilderness.
5
I hike in National Forests out West over 500 miles a year. I agree with Sam. Yes, shooting is not my thing and I do not understand it. But others appear to like it the same way I like hiking. I got to respect that.
Hike 50 miles into the wilderness or a couple of thousands feet up and I guarantee you that there is no shooting. These guys do not travel that far or high.
There is no reason for any dualism between hikers and hunters. The few times I met hunters or 4 wheelers, they have been friendly and courteous. I think we can share the place.
BTW: Some hikers/campers can behave like a nuisance too.
Hike 50 miles into the wilderness or a couple of thousands feet up and I guarantee you that there is no shooting. These guys do not travel that far or high.
There is no reason for any dualism between hikers and hunters. The few times I met hunters or 4 wheelers, they have been friendly and courteous. I think we can share the place.
BTW: Some hikers/campers can behave like a nuisance too.
4
Yup.Oregon here. Can confirm.
I feel sorry for the child who's dad was hit with gunfire. I also feel sorry for the people in that Colorado movie theater that were prevented from using a firearm to save their lives when a crazy came in and started shooting. I am happy for the people that lived in the Lubeys in TX when a person eating there was able to run out to their car, retrieve a firearm, and then kill the crazy that was shooting innocent people.
Do I trust Barack Obama and Democrats to protect my 2nd Amendment rights? no.. Why? Because every time a criminal abuses a gun their first reaction is to take away guns from law abiding citizens or prevent law abiding citizens from carrying firearms.
A sign that says Gun Free Zone is supposed to stop criminals.. Why don't we have Robbery Free Zone signs at banks?
Do I trust Barack Obama and Democrats to protect my 2nd Amendment rights? no.. Why? Because every time a criminal abuses a gun their first reaction is to take away guns from law abiding citizens or prevent law abiding citizens from carrying firearms.
A sign that says Gun Free Zone is supposed to stop criminals.. Why don't we have Robbery Free Zone signs at banks?
1
Ridiculous. You want people in a movie theater to stand up in the dark and start shooting? When even law enforcement, who are trained to use firearms in the worst possible conditions, would not be able to do so? And why were people in the theater in Colorado "prevented" from using a firearm? They weren't "prevented" from using a firearm. They chose not to use one. And remember the dude in Florida -- a retired cop, no less -- who shot the person next to him in a dark movie theater because his cell phone rang? And no one has taken any guns from anyone. What planet are you from? Oh, I see ... Georgia. Explains it.
5
Why does the New York Times continue to print letters which equate Gun Free Zones with gun violence? It is an unsophisticated argument at best, and totally ignores the fact that gun violence is an American problem. The solution, however, is far more complicated than the simplistic fixes suggested by either side of the issue. Arming all the good guys won't fix it. And it would be impossible to confiscate the hundreds of millions of guns already floating around in this country. Can we please have an adult conversation?
1
How would the bankers get rich without "Robbery Free Zones"?
Why we let those moronic imbeciles at the NRA destroy our country is beyond reason.
I used to camp until it became clear that a large portion of campers are engaged in the activity to drink to excess, fortunately I was never exposed to the drunk gun owners. 18-30 year old males, alcohol and guns, what could possibly go wrong?
I used to camp until it became clear that a large portion of campers are engaged in the activity to drink to excess, fortunately I was never exposed to the drunk gun owners. 18-30 year old males, alcohol and guns, what could possibly go wrong?
10
The problem in a nutshell is that bullets travel anywhere from 1.5 to 12 miles in optimum conditions. Shooting at a target on a range where there is some form of a back drop which stops stray bullets unless they have been fired into the air is reasonably safe. Unfortunately in a National Forest sans a proper shooting range we have to rely on the intelligence of those with weapons to practice shooting in a safe spot.
With more and more people using National Forests, Parks and State owned lands, the use of firearms in those areas needs to be sharply curtailed. The death of a Colorado Springs man attempting to make somores illustrates clearly the unintended result when high powered rifles are used in populated areas. And make no mistake, National Forests have many more visitors than many would think. There are backpackers, day trippers, ranchers, mountain bikers, motorcross riders, rafters, fisherman, cross country skiers and others using those lands each and everyday. They deserve to enjoy nature without the crack of a shot and a whistling sound over their heads.
With more and more people using National Forests, Parks and State owned lands, the use of firearms in those areas needs to be sharply curtailed. The death of a Colorado Springs man attempting to make somores illustrates clearly the unintended result when high powered rifles are used in populated areas. And make no mistake, National Forests have many more visitors than many would think. There are backpackers, day trippers, ranchers, mountain bikers, motorcross riders, rafters, fisherman, cross country skiers and others using those lands each and everyday. They deserve to enjoy nature without the crack of a shot and a whistling sound over their heads.
12
Correct. Millions visit. One tragic death is a rare accident.
Let me be sure I understand this - gun advocates refuse to shoot in a designated area because it is not safe. They want to shoot in areas with unarmed people, which is safer for the shooters and deadly for all others. Brilliant.
14
They don't want to get shot by other people who are doing the same thing they're doing ... shooting irresponsibly. They may be idiots, but they're not stupid.
5
I am as staunch a Second Amendment defender and advocate as they come, but have to say that it is irresponsible for any gun owner to just generally walk around a public national forest or park shooting their firearms. To be responsible means safe and respectful and that means only shooting at a designated shooting range. Each national forest and other public land area should have a designated shooting range/area and fine people for shooting outside the designated area (unless a valid hunting situation).
6
I remember back in the 60s going to Tuscon with a Boston U. 'C-' student brat by the name of Andy Roeger and visiting with Desi Arnez Jr. who couldn't wait to show off how his AR-15 could cut down a Sargasso cactus in less than a second.
We were all wild and wooly pot smoking Frat boys. This country is still full of idiots. But, idiocy has been with us quite a while.
Over the years I have lost count of how many people I know personally whose family suffered from a gun accident, gun suicide, gun threat. Life is much safer without guns and the people who like to shoot them.
We were all wild and wooly pot smoking Frat boys. This country is still full of idiots. But, idiocy has been with us quite a while.
Over the years I have lost count of how many people I know personally whose family suffered from a gun accident, gun suicide, gun threat. Life is much safer without guns and the people who like to shoot them.
7
This is another example of when an entire group of people (gun enthusiasts) should not be tarred as "bad" because of the actions of a small number of irresponsible shooters. Although I a very pro-gun control, I am sure that most gun owners are responsible about the use of their weapons.
What I would like to see, from this 'Responsible Majority,' is some kind of action to self-police the irresponsible shooters. Surely the Responsible Majority does not condone the destruction of irreplaceable native American stone paintings, nor do they condone the death of an innocent co-user of public lands like Mr. Martin. So why don't we hear from these Responsible Majority shooters condemning such irresponsible actions and why don't we see them turning in the bad apples?
What I would like to see, from this 'Responsible Majority,' is some kind of action to self-police the irresponsible shooters. Surely the Responsible Majority does not condone the destruction of irreplaceable native American stone paintings, nor do they condone the death of an innocent co-user of public lands like Mr. Martin. So why don't we hear from these Responsible Majority shooters condemning such irresponsible actions and why don't we see them turning in the bad apples?
3
Self police? Is that a joke?
2
Um, we do.
This Land is your land, this land is my land, from Manhattan to the Redwood forests so give me a place to shoot my guns and we'll all be hap-py, This land does not belong to the government, the Sierra club, or city people who bought a matching outfit at LL Bean, this land belongs to you and me, and don't you forget it.
6
Actually, this land belongs to the indigenous Americans from whom we stole it and most of whose ancestors we slaughtered.
1
I fail to understand the sentiments of the so called "responsible gun owners" in spite of living in Midwest and Mid-Atlantic for the past 13 years. Isn't the "right to bear arms" intended to protect yourself or your property? How is it appropriate to walk around towns or cities or schools or forests and shoot around? Do we wait and see what this "responsible gun owner" decides as a target (people, children, animals, art work) and declare the day as "an unfortunate event" or blame it on "mental illness"?
5
Lead bullets are a heavy metal pollutant. Even lead fishing sinkers are illegal in many states.
So shooting on public land should be legal, as long as the shooters find their bullets and carry them out (in the corpse of a deer, for a hunter). Good luck!
Maybe they should counts cartridges on entry, and bullets and casings on exit, and fine people who don't carry their pollution out.
So shooting on public land should be legal, as long as the shooters find their bullets and carry them out (in the corpse of a deer, for a hunter). Good luck!
Maybe they should counts cartridges on entry, and bullets and casings on exit, and fine people who don't carry their pollution out.
4
When you say "they" in regard to people counting shells upon entry and exit, what are you talking about? These vast open lands don't have gates or turnstiles where people go in and out. Their boundaries are hundreds of miles long, mostly unmarked except in certain areas ... and there are precious few USFS officers on patrol to enforce much of anything. The West is wild and wide open.
I like driving, but I am not happy when I see people voilating MVD rules. Many people don't come to full stop's, don't use indicators before making lane changes, do not follow posted speed limits, not yeilding etc... Not everyone is like these folks, but there are definitely some of them. We can see them everyday on the streets. These actions can cause traffic accidents and infact they do cause traffic accidents leading to injury and loss of lives. There should be more enforcement and citations of people who drive like this.
I have a jeep and go on trails with wife and three year old daughter. We follow the leave no trace principle. I am not happy to see people leaving back shell casings, the sight of shot up sign boards, people traget practicing when there are fire restrictions in place, people target shooting in state trust land which is not legal. But there are also all kind of trash left back. We come across open defecation, plastic waste and then broken achohol bottles which is a big concern for us because it can blow our tires. There should be more enforcement of these irresponsible people and citations for illegal acts involving guns. No responsible gun owner will shoot without knowning his/her backstop. Will not shoot from or across a road. Will follow gun safety.
There is always a cultural clash between responsible people and irresponsible people and like everywhere else, that is the only cultural clash I see in this matter.
I have a jeep and go on trails with wife and three year old daughter. We follow the leave no trace principle. I am not happy to see people leaving back shell casings, the sight of shot up sign boards, people traget practicing when there are fire restrictions in place, people target shooting in state trust land which is not legal. But there are also all kind of trash left back. We come across open defecation, plastic waste and then broken achohol bottles which is a big concern for us because it can blow our tires. There should be more enforcement of these irresponsible people and citations for illegal acts involving guns. No responsible gun owner will shoot without knowning his/her backstop. Will not shoot from or across a road. Will follow gun safety.
There is always a cultural clash between responsible people and irresponsible people and like everywhere else, that is the only cultural clash I see in this matter.
6
Please,clean up your own back yard first.How many people were shot in NYC,today?
6
No one. Happy?
4
Some years back, in New England somewhere, I think, a woman was in her back yard hanging up laundry. She was wearing white gloves to protect from the cold.
Incredibly, a hunter mistook the white gloves for a deer's hooves and shot her dead.
Ruled an accident; no charges filed.
If the federal government owns the public lands, then why, as property owner, don't they have an absolute right to determine how the property is used?
Incredibly, a hunter mistook the white gloves for a deer's hooves and shot her dead.
Ruled an accident; no charges filed.
If the federal government owns the public lands, then why, as property owner, don't they have an absolute right to determine how the property is used?
3
As a backcountry hiker living in Arizona, I find that open lands are so vast that there is little reason not to accommodate conflicting uses by establishing mutually exclusive usage areas. Any time there are mixed uses there is conflict. Most often, the presence of hikers, runners, and bikers on the same trail causes conflict. The proper solution is generally to dedicate different trails to different uses. Generally, there is more than enough space so that banning a particular use is an unwarranted overreaction.
3
We can put civic gun limitations into effect pretty quickly.
First: Some of you "patriots" who've been "guarding" military recruitment offices because of the Chattanooga incident -- now that the military itself has told you to leave the premises -- Some of you fellows just mosey on down to the local multiplex this Friday and Saturday nights and "stand guard" down there. Theaters get shot up, too, and you fellows are just the deterrent that quiet, law-abiding citizens need to feel safe at the mpovies. Head on down there with some of your AR-15s and stand around "guarding" the lobby. Buy a ticket to a film, maybe, and stand up there next to the screen and keep watch on the audience. Patriots like you fellows will surely be recognized as do-gooders, not psychopaths. Make sure the bad guys can see your guns and ammo.
Second: After a few incidents and maybe an accident or two, local jurisdictions, you just start passing some laws telling people where they can and can't carry loaded automatic weapons anymore.
NRA, you're fired.
First: Some of you "patriots" who've been "guarding" military recruitment offices because of the Chattanooga incident -- now that the military itself has told you to leave the premises -- Some of you fellows just mosey on down to the local multiplex this Friday and Saturday nights and "stand guard" down there. Theaters get shot up, too, and you fellows are just the deterrent that quiet, law-abiding citizens need to feel safe at the mpovies. Head on down there with some of your AR-15s and stand around "guarding" the lobby. Buy a ticket to a film, maybe, and stand up there next to the screen and keep watch on the audience. Patriots like you fellows will surely be recognized as do-gooders, not psychopaths. Make sure the bad guys can see your guns and ammo.
Second: After a few incidents and maybe an accident or two, local jurisdictions, you just start passing some laws telling people where they can and can't carry loaded automatic weapons anymore.
NRA, you're fired.
3
Automatic weapons. Scary stuff.
It is worth pointing that rock climbers were entirely banned from rock climbing in the Hueco Tanks Stare Park in Texas due to the possibility that rock climbing could hurt the petroglyphs there. No evidence was ever shown that rock climbing actually has damaged or would damage the petroglyphs, but the mere possibility of damage alone was enough for a total ban for many years. After many years of negotiating with the authorities, rock climbers were allowed back in, but only in a very limited way and are very closely monitored.
Shooters in the US, on the other hand, clearly have special rights the rest of us non-shooters simply do not have. I was unaware that the Second Amendment elevated shooters's rights over all other citizen's rights (including the one to their own life)! But clearly that is how the NRA and the gun owners view the Second Amendment.
(Please keep in mind as well, no one has ever been killed by a stray climber!)
Shooters in the US, on the other hand, clearly have special rights the rest of us non-shooters simply do not have. I was unaware that the Second Amendment elevated shooters's rights over all other citizen's rights (including the one to their own life)! But clearly that is how the NRA and the gun owners view the Second Amendment.
(Please keep in mind as well, no one has ever been killed by a stray climber!)
6
I live in Colorado and it's becoming increasingly dangerous to camp and hike in the mountains. Twice in past two years I've been stuck overnight near a group of drunken shooters with assault-like weapons. It was terrifying. I locked myself in the car and didn't get a minute of sleep. In addition to coming across more people with guns who could care less about public safety or being respectful of the primary reason people interact with nature--the silence and solitude, I'm encountering more and more people who blatantly disobey the rules, such as chainsawing an entire stand of trees to fuel a huge bonfire all night long. Between the drinking and drugging and yelling, the shooting and chainsawing and loud music, you might as well never leave the city. I've had better sleep in a train station.
10
I have 5 guns and have been a hunter for 60 years.
My bird dog makes me do it.
Twice a week I shoot at a gun club with 700 members. New York Times readers would be surprised at how few jerks there are in that group.
The United States has more guns than any other country in the world, but does it make us more secure? I doubt it. We have the most wrongful deaths and there's no place safe from idiots with guns.
The best thing we could for this country, in my opinion, is to sell some of our 100 million dollar war planes (just bigger guns) that the military flies around like corvettes and are almost useless against terrorists -- it's like killing mosquitoes with atomic bombs. And assuming we can find some country stupid enough to buy them -- take that cash and invest it:
1. To fight the epidemic of fires from global warming.
2. To patrol, maintain and increase our precious open spaces, sequestering guns the same way we do lethal waste.
Now I can't see any Republicans except Theodore Roosevelt or Dwight Eisenhower doing that. And there are no Democratic candidates with real outdoor experience. Which makes me wonder how long it will take before a majority of Americans realize that our greatest threats and problems are within our borders. as Pogo said.
..
My bird dog makes me do it.
Twice a week I shoot at a gun club with 700 members. New York Times readers would be surprised at how few jerks there are in that group.
The United States has more guns than any other country in the world, but does it make us more secure? I doubt it. We have the most wrongful deaths and there's no place safe from idiots with guns.
The best thing we could for this country, in my opinion, is to sell some of our 100 million dollar war planes (just bigger guns) that the military flies around like corvettes and are almost useless against terrorists -- it's like killing mosquitoes with atomic bombs. And assuming we can find some country stupid enough to buy them -- take that cash and invest it:
1. To fight the epidemic of fires from global warming.
2. To patrol, maintain and increase our precious open spaces, sequestering guns the same way we do lethal waste.
Now I can't see any Republicans except Theodore Roosevelt or Dwight Eisenhower doing that. And there are no Democratic candidates with real outdoor experience. Which makes me wonder how long it will take before a majority of Americans realize that our greatest threats and problems are within our borders. as Pogo said.
..
2
I'm a hiker, backpacker and a firearm owner whose only interest is self defense. I'm not a hunter. Responsible target shooting means finding a spot such as a rock quarry or sheltered ravine with excellent visibility so stray bullets can't injure or kill. And preferably on private land. Shooting up trees is indefensible behavior, as is littering the wood with spent shells and targets. Please don't paint all gun owners as reckless rednecks putting people at risk and destroying the wilderness.
3
I wonder when Justices Alito or Scalia will ever have the courage, with their school of literal Constitutional interpretation, to actually cite the entire second amendment, especially and including the "WELL REGULATED militia" portion.
4
I wonder how we went 150 years from the passage of the Second Amendment to the first mention of the concept that the preamble clause might constrain the rights of "the people", if that is the way it was intended. What's more, how could the phrase "well-regulated militia" have limited the Second to members of government sanctioned subset of the people, when that type of "militia" did not exist in the US until 1901?
2
The vast majority of gun owners are responsible, mature people who do not abuse firearms. The same can be said for the operation of cars, motorcycles or motor boats. If something can be abused there will always be a few people who do so. I refer to these people as "cognitively challenged" and we all know they don't seem capable of learning, except perhaps the hard way. But let's not throw every gun owner under the bus for the actions of a small minority.
1
Nor let that small minority stand in the way of rational controls. Which they do.
2
Yes, true- but because of those bad apples, everyone gets regulated. You have to play to the weakest link - that is how society works, unfortunately. I'm a really good driver (or at least I think I am) - but I still have to drive the speed limit. Surely it's well past time for gun owners to have some reasonable controls put in place.
1
We have "reasonable" controls on motor vehicles, yet that doesn't stop a minority of drivers from operating in an irresponsible manner. No matter the rules, we can't seem to find a way to regulate stupid.
The rude, aggressive behavior by people shooting guns irresponsibly, leaving their trash, and intimidating people, is not acceptable on public lands. Where is the NRA, they should be educating the public about gun safety and appropriate responsible use of guns. These rude people are going to bring down what the NRA stands for faster than any antigun group ever will.
4
First, this really makes me mad. No one has the right to go trash public land for their own purpose, and responsible gun owners know that this behavior is dangerous. From a more pragmatic standpoint, this is the result of gun ranges that are being run out of business because of local laws and high insurance.
Why not providing funding and insurance for good gun ranges? We provide public money for golf courses, swimming pools, and a variety of parks. Why not provide public money to create safe, modern gun ranges so that people have a good place to go shoot? Talk to anyone that shoots about trying to find a gun range that doesn't cost a ton of money. Think of it like the public pool, which takes some nominal fee to enter but is also supported by tax payer money. I guarantee that you will get a lot of people out of the national forests if you do that. That may not further a political agenda, but it would help curb that actual problem.
Why not providing funding and insurance for good gun ranges? We provide public money for golf courses, swimming pools, and a variety of parks. Why not provide public money to create safe, modern gun ranges so that people have a good place to go shoot? Talk to anyone that shoots about trying to find a gun range that doesn't cost a ton of money. Think of it like the public pool, which takes some nominal fee to enter but is also supported by tax payer money. I guarantee that you will get a lot of people out of the national forests if you do that. That may not further a political agenda, but it would help curb that actual problem.
1
ANY responsible gun owner can recite the 4th rule of gun safety: Always be sure of your target AND what's behind it.
The real destroyer of nature is motor vehicles. Just mechanical devices, like guns. The only difference is vehicles kill far more people, do far more damage, and are NOT constitutionally protected. So, like the anti-gun argument goes; let's ban motor vehicles, if we can even save 1 life it's worth doing right.
The real destroyer of nature is motor vehicles. Just mechanical devices, like guns. The only difference is vehicles kill far more people, do far more damage, and are NOT constitutionally protected. So, like the anti-gun argument goes; let's ban motor vehicles, if we can even save 1 life it's worth doing right.
1
Nice try but motor vehicles serve a useful and necessary purpose and vehicle owners are required to be licensed and insured.
2
Actually no motor vehicles don't kill far more people. Guns do. That tipping point has already been reached. Glad to be of service.
2
The photo shows a man teaching his sons to be rude and destructive, where is the mother of these children?
Women need to step up and start exerting some influence and authority. Giving birth and raising a child is hard work and it's one of the most important jobs out there, too important to let it be tainted by this kind of dangerous idiocy.
Women need to step up and start exerting some influence and authority. Giving birth and raising a child is hard work and it's one of the most important jobs out there, too important to let it be tainted by this kind of dangerous idiocy.
1
Conservatives and the loathsome NRA (among many pro-gun groups) are so dimwitted about the issue of firearms that they can't see reality right in front of them regarding much larger issues — public safety vandalism by shooters, noise, how some activities are completely incompatible with others, such as hiking and camping in nature's quiet. Even "responsible" gun owners can be pretty dumb about these issues. The most vocal and unreasonable proponents of firearms every where all the time are truly proving the existence of American exceptionalism — as in exceptionally obtuse.
Eclectic Pragmatist — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
Eclectic Pragmatist — https://medium.com/eclectic-pragmatism
Eclectic Pragmatist — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
Eclectic Pragmatist — https://medium.com/eclectic-pragmatism
2
Probably the only way a bunch of repressed self deniers can enjoy lovingly staring at each others guns. With a little therapy they could be out and living large on Fire Island.
1
The urge to destroy runs deep. That's why we need strict gun laws, strictly enforced and with heavy penalties.
4
Seems like both sides could be accomodated by requiring suppressors and backstops and by regulating trash pickup. There's no need to turn this into a culture war.
VERY biased reportage. Allowing a clear implication that shooters are ALL trigger trash, that they ALL will walk ominously back with you making you think you're about to die, that the NRA supports trigger trash shooting from moving vehicles, etc, that maybe shucks the only solution just might be to take all them guns away...
*
...and finally, could they find a more benign, placid, less threatening photo of poor Mr. Martin? Gotta have your tear jerky anecdote, you know. The ignorant masses need that kind of incontrovertible proof.
*
...and finally, could they find a more benign, placid, less threatening photo of poor Mr. Martin? Gotta have your tear jerky anecdote, you know. The ignorant masses need that kind of incontrovertible proof.
1
Pomona Pete: I'm sure that the Martin family will appreciate your comment.
2
The reporting was about the problems which was done fairly. Get over it.
Time for the government to use the funds that they get responsibly. It's clear that there is a huge demand for shooting areas. There is also the need for safety and preserving recreational use. Why not designate some safe shooting areas and shooting ranges? Shooters lack easy access to shooting ranges. Provide it for them and recoup the cost with fees. Voila. Problem solved.
As a lifetime shooting enthusiast and hunter it abhors me to see the irresponsibility of some weekend shooters. It starts with ignorance of selecting a safe target shooting environment where every bullet ends up grounded. If you are shooting into a woods, with no dirt backstop that is like walking our your front door and shooting down your street. Leaving behind trash is also a problem with hikers, bikers and campers but policing your shooting area for brass and shells is considered a requirement at every shooting range. Shooters have as much right to use public land as anyone else, it is a 100% safe sport if you follow the rules. Those that don't should lose their guns immediately and the right to own them forever.
1
“Just the same as there should be areas on public lands for people to go mountain biking or mountain climbing, there should be areas for shooters,” said Lars Dalseide, an N.R.A. spokesman.
Perhaps, but they should not be the SAME areas.
Perhaps, but they should not be the SAME areas.
2
Under current law, couldn't shooters leaving trigger trash be at least fined for littering? There are laws against littering, no? You must start somewhere...
I am a vietnam vet.
I own a gun.
I am in the process of teaching my grandson gun safety. I am also encouraging him to get further instructions from certified instructors.
I am absolutely certain that absolutely no certified instructor would say that is is OK to blast away at anything you want to on Public land or in a National Park.
These idiots are turning the phrase "responsible gun-owner" into an oxymoron.
I own a gun.
I am in the process of teaching my grandson gun safety. I am also encouraging him to get further instructions from certified instructors.
I am absolutely certain that absolutely no certified instructor would say that is is OK to blast away at anything you want to on Public land or in a National Park.
These idiots are turning the phrase "responsible gun-owner" into an oxymoron.
4
Accident or not, legal to use guns in public lands or not, the person who shot Martin should have turned themselves in. In contrast to the ideology of not depending on the state and taking responsibility for one's action, one pattern among "conservatives" is that bad things that happen are never their fault and they are not responsible for finding ways to prevent further bad things of the same kind. (Footnote: Notice Jeb Bush blame the current administration for the rise of ISIS out of the embers of the Iraq war.)
2
This shows how far the NRA has strayed from it's original purpose as one of the original hook and bullet organizations. I took their excellent hunter safety course back in the 60's. If my instructors saw the damage being done by these careless, dangerous shooters it would make them sick.
Went out for my regular walk yesterday and found two TVs, numerous glass bottles and a propane tank that were not there on Friday. All shot up and left in a site where people used to be able to camp. I don't have any issues with shooting responsibly on public land, it's been going on for years and I did it quite often with my father. But this type of behavior is absolutely inexcusable. The fact that the NRA automatically defends this behavior is disgusting but hardly surprising. What has happened to the idea of using public land responsibly so others can do the same year after year? Just another casualty of our ridiculous gun culture that insists anyone has the right to carry a loaded weapon anywhere and use it as the owner sees fit. So discouraging and depressing.
Went out for my regular walk yesterday and found two TVs, numerous glass bottles and a propane tank that were not there on Friday. All shot up and left in a site where people used to be able to camp. I don't have any issues with shooting responsibly on public land, it's been going on for years and I did it quite often with my father. But this type of behavior is absolutely inexcusable. The fact that the NRA automatically defends this behavior is disgusting but hardly surprising. What has happened to the idea of using public land responsibly so others can do the same year after year? Just another casualty of our ridiculous gun culture that insists anyone has the right to carry a loaded weapon anywhere and use it as the owner sees fit. So discouraging and depressing.
2
BLM and the Forest Service are required to have plans for each management area. It would be logical and easy to amend those plans to include designated shooting places. Public lands enforcement resources are spread pretty thin, but a combination of what enforcement is possible and a consensus about what constitutes proper behavior on public lands could cut down the problem. Says the optimistic believer in human decency.
1
A simple fix... set up ranges in the parks and don't make it difficult to get to or to use. Even "gunners" don't want to get shot. BUT the LIBERALS with their hatred for firearms do the opposite... They put the ranges in hard to get to places and they create alsorts of rules to use the ranges...
1
What horseshit. Most of this range has been closed for years all because "new" homes nearby. The new owners didn't like to hear gun shots, but they knew exactly what was going on when they bought.
1
The first thing that came to my mind is Cliven Bundy, who is probably still sponging off the taxpayers and not paying his lease fees, and Walter Palmer who is skulking around in the suburbs and probably dreaming about killing another animal who is more noble than he will ever be. So now we know that gun owners, in addition to being dangerous, are slobs. Somehow I'm not surprised.
1
It really does sound like a war zone most weekends along the CO Front Range, even if you're on your own property. I've seen used, temporary targets set up alongside trails indicating that the shooters were shooting parallel to the trail - extremely hazardous situation and they left the targets for someone else to pick up. And lots of spent shells on heavily used trails, not beside or 20 or 50 yards away from the trail, on the trail itself.
The forest service is finally cracking down on open shooting in the most heavily used areas but no matter where you go, you will hear gunfire.
Responsible gun owners? Yeah right. Welcome to the wild west.
The forest service is finally cracking down on open shooting in the most heavily used areas but no matter where you go, you will hear gunfire.
Responsible gun owners? Yeah right. Welcome to the wild west.
2
I've got a proposal. The family of any citizen inadvertently killed by a stray bullet on federal land shall be reimbursed $1B dollars. The $1B shall be collected as a new Firearm Lethality Tax.
Any citizen inadvertently injured shall similarly be reimbursed $1M. This too will be funded out of the FLT.
If gun owners feel they have the right to maim or kill fellow citizens, they can damn well pay for it. At least until our politicians grow some cajones and start placing some reasonable regulations on gun ownership and use.
Any citizen inadvertently injured shall similarly be reimbursed $1M. This too will be funded out of the FLT.
If gun owners feel they have the right to maim or kill fellow citizens, they can damn well pay for it. At least until our politicians grow some cajones and start placing some reasonable regulations on gun ownership and use.
29
Don't complain when the gang bangers who are robbing you at gun point refuse to pay that tax. "Every new law makes a new criminal".
Never happen in a billion years; the tax especially.
I have a proposal. Any person killed (deliberately or inadvertently) by an illegal alien anywhere in the United States will be paid $1B. We can call it the Sanctuary City Tax. Funding for this tax can come from the tax base of any sanctuary city in the U.S., any organization supporting amnesty to illegal aliens and personally from any politician who publicly says that we don't need to restrict immigration into the U.S.
My proposal makes as much sense as yours
My proposal makes as much sense as yours
1
Guns have no place in a National Park period! Try taking a gun to a National Park in Canada and you won't get a warning you will end up in jail!
21
People have a right to own guns. However, I seriously doubt this is what the founders had in mind when they wrote the Bill of Rights.
14
true, but federal government power is also far, far beyond what the Framers intended.
So why aren't the anti-gun types as concerned about *that*?
So why aren't the anti-gun types as concerned about *that*?
2
True, they had in mind making sure the people were armed to ensure our other rights weren't taken away from us.
How about a novel idea, be courteous. Hikers practice low impact hiking and camping and don't have fires where prohibited. Gun owners, be smart and discharge weapons in suitable environments and don't carry your garbage into public lands for targets. Everyone practice carry in/carry out and definitely bury fecal matter. It really isn't that hard!
11
Whether you dump your trash in the woods, or shoot at monuments or without a backstop, or play loud music at the beach, it call comes down to respect. Either you respect the environment and people around you or you don't. Shame on you who fall into the latter category. You're a blight on society.
32
There was a time in several states that if you were caught walking in the woods carrying a rifle when it wasn't deer season, you could be arrested for hunting illegally.
9
Aren't there many gun ranges where gun enthusiasts can practice shooting? How is it at all reasonable that a person should have their life put at risk from a recreational shooter? I know, I know, the gun rights groups will say that most gun owners are responsible. Well I am sick and tired of hoping that if I do meet a gun owner, he or she is one of those.
8
Every time I hike I have my 9MM with me. I don't shoot it indiscriminately. You've probably encountered many gun owners who were even carrying while on the trail. But I've also encountered situations on the trail where I was glad I had my firearm in case things took a bad turn (while pigs, wild dogs, homeless half crazed meth heads, etc). Out west where there are cougars and grizzly's I would for sure carry my pistol.
Most gun owners are probably fairly responsible. There are 123 million households in the U.S. 42% own guns. That's 51.5 million households that have at least one gun. (Since there are over 300 million guns in the country, that's an average of 6 guns per household.)
Let's say only 1% of those households are "irresponsible" gun owners. That's over 500,000 households with at least one irresponsible gun owner.
Perhaps my estimate was high, and there's only .1% of households that are irresponsible. That still leaves over 50,000 irresponsible households.
This irresponsibility could be fairly harmless, or it could be lead to the many "accidental" gun deaths every year, plus the occasional mass shooting. Or just wild shooting on public lands where people are camping and hiking.
But the important thing to remember is, MOST gun owners are responsible. Most gun owners don't let their kids get hold of their loaded guns (and bring them to school). Most gun owners don't shoot in the woods where people are enjoying nature. Most gun owners don't destroy nature for fun. Most gun owners don't shoot someone, intentionally or accidentally.
Most don't.
So really, what's everyone squawking about? The destruction of our parks, your grandfather's death, are just the necessary price we have to pay for a free society. (For gun owners, that is.)
Let's say only 1% of those households are "irresponsible" gun owners. That's over 500,000 households with at least one irresponsible gun owner.
Perhaps my estimate was high, and there's only .1% of households that are irresponsible. That still leaves over 50,000 irresponsible households.
This irresponsibility could be fairly harmless, or it could be lead to the many "accidental" gun deaths every year, plus the occasional mass shooting. Or just wild shooting on public lands where people are camping and hiking.
But the important thing to remember is, MOST gun owners are responsible. Most gun owners don't let their kids get hold of their loaded guns (and bring them to school). Most gun owners don't shoot in the woods where people are enjoying nature. Most gun owners don't destroy nature for fun. Most gun owners don't shoot someone, intentionally or accidentally.
Most don't.
So really, what's everyone squawking about? The destruction of our parks, your grandfather's death, are just the necessary price we have to pay for a free society. (For gun owners, that is.)
4
Even if you are a "responsible" gun owner, you cannot always have control over the use of your gun by an irresponsible person. This happens time and time again.
1
So there are only 170 more incidents now than there were 10 years ago? Could be an anomaly. Could be because there are more and more people in the u.s. every year. Which will really be a problem as the Latin invasion continues. Speaking of that, how about the damage the Mexican drug dealers cause in the forests. Just expect more thanks to weak knees politicians. Goodbye western civilization, we hardly knew ye.
2
At some point, we're going to come to our sanity and recognize that a right to bear arms is not at all times and in all places. That there are times and places where guns just should not exist. The problem here isn't that you have a bunch of people who want to go out shooting. It's that there is no control over it. They just go wherever they think no one is around and start blasting. They have no way of knowing that someone is hiking behind the ridge that they are shooting at, or that one of their stray shots can actually hit someone. They don't seem to care about any damage or pollution that they do to the environment and the wildlife there. It's all about them and their "rights" to shoot their weapons wherever they feel like shooting. They have no respect or concern for the well being of others who always want to enjoy the park lands without breaking out the heavy artillery.
So what is the answer? Since this lot doesn't seem interested in policing themselves, they must be policed. Shooting only in clearly marked designated areas that are well away from any areas of environmental or archeological interest. This will also allow others who just want to enjoy the park to know where to avoid. The only ones who won't be happy with this are the lunatics who feel that their rights to play cowboy with the biggest gun they can find supersedes the rights of everyone else who just want to enjoy the world without having to dodge heavy fire.
So what is the answer? Since this lot doesn't seem interested in policing themselves, they must be policed. Shooting only in clearly marked designated areas that are well away from any areas of environmental or archeological interest. This will also allow others who just want to enjoy the park to know where to avoid. The only ones who won't be happy with this are the lunatics who feel that their rights to play cowboy with the biggest gun they can find supersedes the rights of everyone else who just want to enjoy the world without having to dodge heavy fire.
14
Very well said!
1
The problem is that you have a bunch of people who fear that their way of life, rooted in their deepest beliefs, is threatened. They are largely correct: their way of life and point of view is giig down as we become more diverse, more connected, more progressive, and less bigoted.
The thing is, they are serious about their attitudes and are not going to accept appeals to reason or anything else, including safety or humanity. They are not going down soon or easily. Demographics will eventually prevail, but not much else.
The thing is, they are serious about their attitudes and are not going to accept appeals to reason or anything else, including safety or humanity. They are not going down soon or easily. Demographics will eventually prevail, but not much else.
3
Ahhh...the NYT and their readers stoking each other. The ignorance of the TIMES and their readers is far more frightening than people with guns in the backcountry.
5
No, much less frightening. All the salt-water left does is complain at dinner parties and occasionally win elections. "Trigger trash" kill people, both in the woods and in urban churches, with little to no regret. I much prefer naivete and snobbery to homicide.
3
Not to me Peter. But then my opinion doesn't count to you since I'm "ignorant".
2
Keep soothing yourself with that mantra.
3
But, surely, these are all "good guys with guns?" They would use their weaponry maturely, wisely, only to shoot a "bad guy" or fight an overreaching government? Aren't they our protectors? Wouldn't we be safer if everyone was armed? This is what the Second Amendment means by a well-regulated militia, no doubt. This has nothing to do with the drunken, immature antics of a fearful, macho, Neanderthal subculture. Not at all.
3
This article nailed the problems we are facing up in the mountains of the Front Range in Colorado. We've resorted to hiring off-duty sheriff's deputies to patrol the patchwork of federal/state/private lands in our area (because the Feds and the State lack enforcement mechanisms or personnel). Unless there's a specific ban on shooting, anyone can unload their guns as long as they are 150 yards from a road, trail or property line. Mind boggling, but true. We've had houses hit, but no injuries yet. And this is far from a gun rights issue. Most of us own guns up here, and are appalled by the situation and the NRA's insane irresponsibility in keeping gun laws so loose that the irresponsible shooters define gun culture today....
19
Yet most, if not all, gun owners, blindly support whatever candidate the NRA tells them to.
You say that you are "appalled by the NRA's insane irresponsibility"...then stop supporting them!
You say that you are "appalled by the NRA's insane irresponsibility"...then stop supporting them!
The Nations numbers are growing, people are scared of the Government These people are practicing Killing and leaving the the trash associated with it which bothers me also.
But what better place than the woods to do this where they do not expect to find anyone.
On the 2nd Amendment I have no issue with it since I'm x-military. I live in a area with Millions of people. What makes me take notice is the numbers who are buying all the weapons and Ammo they can at Gun Shows. I know for a fact that every seller at a gun show who is a Federal Firearms Dealer runs the check mandated on every new buyer.
My point is People are very scared, it's like they are planning for a collapse so they are protecting themselves just like the animals who in fear were seen leaving Yellowstone. Human instinct is animal and when it kicks in if a collapse occurs the last place I would want to be in is a city like New York. Right now China is scared to death of this very issue.
Also I doubt the NYT will approve this, they try to keep a lid on thought....
But what better place than the woods to do this where they do not expect to find anyone.
On the 2nd Amendment I have no issue with it since I'm x-military. I live in a area with Millions of people. What makes me take notice is the numbers who are buying all the weapons and Ammo they can at Gun Shows. I know for a fact that every seller at a gun show who is a Federal Firearms Dealer runs the check mandated on every new buyer.
My point is People are very scared, it's like they are planning for a collapse so they are protecting themselves just like the animals who in fear were seen leaving Yellowstone. Human instinct is animal and when it kicks in if a collapse occurs the last place I would want to be in is a city like New York. Right now China is scared to death of this very issue.
Also I doubt the NYT will approve this, they try to keep a lid on thought....
Perhaps another of our freedoms is falling to the "freedom" that the gun culture and the NRA is imposing upon the majority of us. We will now have the "freedom" to be afraid when we venture into the woods.
6
“It’s all been shot,” he said. “It’s just destroying everything.”
What a liar.
I look at my window, and 'everything' is not being 'been shot'.
Take a deep breath dude, there is a whole lot of world out here, and not everything is being shot.
What a liar.
I look at my window, and 'everything' is not being 'been shot'.
Take a deep breath dude, there is a whole lot of world out here, and not everything is being shot.
2
Slow your roll, I think you misunderstood what the hiker that said "everything" had been referring to. He wasn't referring to our rolling hillsides or National Forests, but specifically to "prehistoric petroglyphs" at a specific site in backwoods Utah that had been damaged by gunfire. I don't know whether or not there are laws in place for preserving and protecting these drawings, but it would be a pity if someone made a special point or was otherwise careless about the preservation of images drawn by native hunters thousands of years ago..
Nothing inspire backlash like abused privileges.
Tell your Congressperson that you have read Article I Section 8 of the Constitution, and the second amendment thereto, and you want them to prove that they are not being held hostage at gunpoint by enacting legislation that will sort the well regulated with guns from the nutcases with guns.
Tell your Congressperson that you have read Article I Section 8 of the Constitution, and the second amendment thereto, and you want them to prove that they are not being held hostage at gunpoint by enacting legislation that will sort the well regulated with guns from the nutcases with guns.
8
It is the same thing with boaters. We had a cottage on a lake here, and over the years we witnessed increasingly irresponsible behavior by boaters, who appeared to be clueless and could care less how they "drove" their boats and behaved--flinging trash and beer cans over the boat, driving recklessly around near where people were swimming or canoeing, out at night at warp speed with no lights on, creating waves and wakes to swamp, and yes, boaters were killed on our lake, mostly because they were driving drunk.
Several of our friends occasionally tried to say something to the "freedom-with-responsibility boaters" about toning it down, but were met with total belligerence--instead of saying "sorry" and curbing their irresponsible behavior.
If people acted responsibility, we wouldn't need laws or enforcers, but the very people who don't want laws are the same ones making things worse for everyone else.
Several of our friends occasionally tried to say something to the "freedom-with-responsibility boaters" about toning it down, but were met with total belligerence--instead of saying "sorry" and curbing their irresponsible behavior.
If people acted responsibility, we wouldn't need laws or enforcers, but the very people who don't want laws are the same ones making things worse for everyone else.
7
I think it's a matter of general average cultural level of ordinary American citizens and so far I should admit it's quite poor especially in poor communities or districts.
2
Public lands are for multiple uses by all members of the public. Just as the government sets aside and develops an adequate supply of campsites, it should provide an adequate number of ranges with proper backstops. I like to hike and I like to shoot. I have no concern about firing going on at a nearby range with a proper backstop.
Selfish yahoos infect every kind of activity. That is what enforcement is for. Prohibition of an entire category of activity will transform the public lands into the private reserve of one part of the citizenry leaving the rest with no reason to support them.
No one is advocating making the country dry again even though many thousands are maimed and killed every year by irresponsibly drinkers. I see nothing here to suggest that accidental shootings in the national forest is anywhere near the threat of being killed in an MVA on the way there, or other accidental causes of death in the wilderness.
Selfish yahoos infect every kind of activity. That is what enforcement is for. Prohibition of an entire category of activity will transform the public lands into the private reserve of one part of the citizenry leaving the rest with no reason to support them.
No one is advocating making the country dry again even though many thousands are maimed and killed every year by irresponsibly drinkers. I see nothing here to suggest that accidental shootings in the national forest is anywhere near the threat of being killed in an MVA on the way there, or other accidental causes of death in the wilderness.
3
I was raised in the country and have, and have always had, firearms for hunting or personal defense, but I cannot understand the obsession with guns that seems to be growing across the U.S. I live on property outside of the city limits and have had several instances of neighbors recklessly shooting guns where rounds went zinging across my property. Besides the physical safety issues, it is noise pollution and degrades property values. I am very conservative in my social and political beliefs, but I wish there were laws in place that restricted the ownership and use of firearms to personal defense (CHL in Texas), hunting (regulated), and gun ranges. The NRA's support of fringe gun nuts' rights in the "if we give an inch they'll take a mile" mentality will drive many otherwise supportive people into the complete anti-gun camp. I have 4 children and their experience of having to go inside because the neighbors are shooting again just created 4 anti-gun voters in a few years. Thoughts and prayers go out to the Martin family. Time to wake up NRA.
22
Yet I bet because you are conservative in your social and political beliefs you've cast most of your votes for candidate who blindly support the NRA. Can't have it both ways...
First, people moved into areas around rifle ranges and demanded they be closed because of noise, etc. Now, those same people range farther and farther out of the city and complain about shooting out there too.
I don't support shooting in culturally sensitive areas, such as areas with petroglyphs or other artifacts, and I agree that some shooters leave a big mess, which they shouldn't be doing, but where are they to shoot?
If you want to close most public lands to shooting, then you need to provide inexpensive, legal gun ranges on all of those lands to allow shooters to enjoy public lands as well. Mountain bikers destroy trails, hikers damage the landscape, in fact any use of land is going to damage it to some degree. The key is in all of us working together to create a safe environment for shooters and non-shooters alike.
I don't support shooting in culturally sensitive areas, such as areas with petroglyphs or other artifacts, and I agree that some shooters leave a big mess, which they shouldn't be doing, but where are they to shoot?
If you want to close most public lands to shooting, then you need to provide inexpensive, legal gun ranges on all of those lands to allow shooters to enjoy public lands as well. Mountain bikers destroy trails, hikers damage the landscape, in fact any use of land is going to damage it to some degree. The key is in all of us working together to create a safe environment for shooters and non-shooters alike.
4
When a backwoods shooter dies because of a camping grandfather it will become appropriate to equate the damage done by gun and gun-less activities. Until then, shooting in the woods should be treated as a more serious problem than hikers.
2
Live in Arizona and it is completely out of control here and getting worse. Bunch of trashy people trashing the public lands. This recreational activity is not a compatible use for public lands - hunting sure but target shooting no. It is loud - you can hear shots from miles away. It is damaging - how can it not be. It is offensive. For those of you arguing that it is rare - it is not. For those who are arguing that they are the exception - they are part of your gun owning community and culture - you own them and their problems.
127
It's too late to get the guns, we can tax the living daylight out of primers, the one part of a bullet they can't make at home. $5.00 a primer, the proceeds to health care and education.
A facebook group I joined this summer recently had a post from a newby woman hiker asking for advice on how to pack her pistol in her pack. She was venturing into the national parks with her daughter. To backpackers, this is heresy, and to Park Rangers, illegal. We've come to a point in our country where the right to own a weapon has gone beyond practicality and now lies somewhere between social protest and lunacy.
We're getting to the point where the most realistic future includes registration of weapons, heavy regulation of manufacturing and sales along with harsher restrictions on use of the wild. We're already seeing it in Yosemite with the lower use permits taking effect this year. Without our educational system embodying a more conservation minded curriculum which teaches the importance of respect for our wild spaces, we're in for some tumultuous times ahead. Fortunately, many of our youth are being educated in conservation, it's their yahoo parents that misbehave. But sadly, guns permeate our society as we pursue the belief that armed rebellion is the fourth branch of our government.
We're getting to the point where the most realistic future includes registration of weapons, heavy regulation of manufacturing and sales along with harsher restrictions on use of the wild. We're already seeing it in Yosemite with the lower use permits taking effect this year. Without our educational system embodying a more conservation minded curriculum which teaches the importance of respect for our wild spaces, we're in for some tumultuous times ahead. Fortunately, many of our youth are being educated in conservation, it's their yahoo parents that misbehave. But sadly, guns permeate our society as we pursue the belief that armed rebellion is the fourth branch of our government.
3
“Just the same as there should be areas on public lands for people to go mountain biking or mountain climbing, there should be areas for shooters,” said Lars Dalseide, an N.R.A. spokesman.
You know what the difference is Mr. Dalseide? Bikes are designed to transport people, climbing gear is designed to scale rocks, and tents are designed to shelter people outdoors. Guns are designed to kill things and, in their genesis, people. There is no other commonplace object that holds this ignominious design intent.
Let's be clearer. Using a gun to shoot a can means you've misused the gun. Using a gun to kill someone means you've used it exactly the way it was meant to be used.
You know what the difference is Mr. Dalseide? Bikes are designed to transport people, climbing gear is designed to scale rocks, and tents are designed to shelter people outdoors. Guns are designed to kill things and, in their genesis, people. There is no other commonplace object that holds this ignominious design intent.
Let's be clearer. Using a gun to shoot a can means you've misused the gun. Using a gun to kill someone means you've used it exactly the way it was meant to be used.
6
Why should they assume that target practice belongs in the wild, to begin with? We do not have the right to do anything we feel like anywhere, for good reason. Why should we, as taxpayers, have to assume the cost of this "entertainment?" I also don't buy the argument that they have always done it. Our wild spaces are getting smaller. Let's preserve them, not shoot holes in them.
Hiking on the Pacific Crest trail last summer in the Sierra Buttess, California area. Had to stop and turn back to the trailhead because someone was shooting a semiautomatic firearm (fairly rapid 10 shot bursts) near the trail, below, not above. Shooting in National Forests/BLM land should be limited to special areas or to those with valid hunting licenses. Allowing shooters to go anywhere is a menace to the majority of users! Safe zones need to be created around trails, campgrounds, etc.
9
Guns Over People: GOP 2015
20
very liberal article here.. once again pushing their agenda of anti guns.. when the vast majority of mass shootings are done by liberals..
Ok.. so you take away guns do you really think the criminals will give up their guns? Do you think law enforcement will be targeted for their guns.. ? Then look at countries that gave up their guns.. did crime drop? Did the government take over?
At least our fore fathers had the incite to predict a corrupt government and that the citizens may have to protect them self from said government.. or over throw a government who makes laws that exclude the politicians.. a government that is unable to control their spending. a government that rewards the lazy so they will keep electing politicians that reward them with more hand outs while they do not work..
If you really think that everyone must give up their guns.. then start with the politicians body guards.. Why should politicians have protection and Joe plumber doesn't because he is not part of the elite rich..
Ok.. so you take away guns do you really think the criminals will give up their guns? Do you think law enforcement will be targeted for their guns.. ? Then look at countries that gave up their guns.. did crime drop? Did the government take over?
At least our fore fathers had the incite to predict a corrupt government and that the citizens may have to protect them self from said government.. or over throw a government who makes laws that exclude the politicians.. a government that is unable to control their spending. a government that rewards the lazy so they will keep electing politicians that reward them with more hand outs while they do not work..
If you really think that everyone must give up their guns.. then start with the politicians body guards.. Why should politicians have protection and Joe plumber doesn't because he is not part of the elite rich..
2
The article is about endangering and menacing our citizens on publicly owned lands.
2
Really stir up a hornets' nest and propose to ban dogs from public lands. Irresponsible owners let them run loose and they (the dogs) bite people causing injury or possibly death on a daily basis. Dog defecation is everywhere. Such lawlessness needs to be stopped!
2
I've come across shooters twice while Mountain Biking on trails. Once in Colorado where a group had ATV'd into the wilderness on a rocky trail, and were shooting from the trail. I heard shots and yelled out to warn that others were in the area. They stopped shooting and were friendly. They thanked me for letting me know we were there - they actually looked very surprised that someone was out where they were.
The other time was around Moab, where we heard 2 bullets whistle nearby while out on a trail. We never saw the shooter, and didnt hear anything more after we called out to let them know we were around. Again, I think they were surprised that others were out there.
In general, as a biker I am not aware of where shooters go - until I hear them shooting. I bet a lot of shooters have no idea that there are mt bike trails nearby either. If you are out shooting, please be careful: know where your shots are going.
The other time was around Moab, where we heard 2 bullets whistle nearby while out on a trail. We never saw the shooter, and didnt hear anything more after we called out to let them know we were around. Again, I think they were surprised that others were out there.
In general, as a biker I am not aware of where shooters go - until I hear them shooting. I bet a lot of shooters have no idea that there are mt bike trails nearby either. If you are out shooting, please be careful: know where your shots are going.
47
With all due respect, they don't care.
1
Simple rule that all gun-owners knew two generations ago, before the current crop of NRA officers took power: Never, ever discharge a firearm without knowing your backstop.
The purpose of public lands, national forest an parks is not for the sole use of the greenie establishment. Land management agencies need to practice multiple use management to serve all the publics needs not just one special interest group.
1
I totally agree. We cannot have one special interest group setting the entire agenda when the vast majority of the land owners (the American people) are put at risk. Your logic is spot on, however you seem to have one special interest group (shooters/NRA) and the remaining majority of park users confused.
The vast majority of public lands are already open to hunting, motorized vehicle use, and other activities that can hardly be characterized as the pursuit of "greens" or tree huggers, not to mention logging and mining. Must we also contend with gun nuts who get their jollies shooting up TVs and ancient rock art and drive other users away in the process?
2
Re: The man who was killed by a stray bullet at a campsite: From this article, it sounds like there was no serious effort by law enforcement to find the person responsible. Why is that? I am sure that if I mowed down someone with my car, even accidentally, the police would search for me, and if they found me, they would prosecute me if it came to light that I was grossly negligent, intoxicated, etc. Why are the rules different where guns are involved? Without taking a political stand on guns vs. no guns, I simply do not understand this and would like to see an explanation.
9
On a recent trip to magnificent Olympic National Park (Washington State) we heard gunshots in the distance only to come across a makeshift firing range with families taking turns shooting targets using handguns. There was no barrier between the range and the road nor any safety features for the participants, many of whom were small children. We were amazed to learn from the park ranger than the use of guns was legal. Surely this can be conducted in a way that permits gun fanatics to do their thing but also keeps them away from the majority that is enjoying the wilderness. Or even better, maybe national parks should be the one place in America where one can move freely without fear of guns except in areas where legitimate hunting is taking place.
11
I have been in the Six Rivers National Forest and passed folks carrying a 24 pack of beer and a rifle. Sure enough shots were ringing out well into the night. There is no solution to this but to restrict these activities. This is in no way comparable to motorized activities like dirt bikes and 4 wheel driving in the back country. The NRA's influence in expanding the rights of a minority of gun owners is way out of proportion to the interests and concerns of the majority of tax payers that are providing roads and infrastructure that these gun owners use daily.
7
We've let the people with the most fear make the rules. There's no reason for anyone to own an assault weapon unless they are paranoid beyond belief. There's no reason any man needs to shoot a gun for fun, unless, let's face it, he has serious problems with his sense of masculinity. Mountain bikes and backpacks don't kill other people routinely, but, as often happens in politics, the best organized win, not those with good ideas.
9
Stay in the city where it's safe.
2
This is a direct result of the Supreme Court making it legal to use weapons in the National Parks. Before 2010 it was illegal. Shooting ranges were invented so that a safe place could be designated for target practice. Guns should not be allowed where people are hiking. Bullets can travel and go off course very easily. I have hiked in areas near a shooting range and the noise is deafening, but at least the bullets are contained. We need to be protected from the 2nd Amendment purveyors of mythology. The two guys in the picture do not look like they belong to a well-regulated militia.
7
I'm generally supportive of gun rights, but this story brings to mind something I notice often: Pro-gun advocates often reference their love of the outdoors, and refer themselves to sportsmen and conservationists - and while I've no doubt that such people exist, my encounters with "outdoorsy" gun owners tend to be more like the ones depicted in the article: selfish, and with no consideration for the environment or the people with whom they share it.
12
The problem is socio-economic. You basically have poor, uneducated, wards of the the welfare state white people that don't know no better. You will not see the educated, middle to upper-middle class white shooters being irresponsible like these poor folk.
1
We wouldn't want the shooters getting frustrated and upset now, would we? How about they start by marking out their range before firing live ammunition, so that hikers and campers can avoid berng shot by the less skilled among them? And hiking out their trash, including spent shells, is accepted back-country courtesy.
6
In Boston, there is a little island called Moon Island which is taken over by the Boston Fired Department for training, and for the Boston Police shooting range. The public is banned from that island as a result, and is also banned from Long Island, which used to house a homeless shelter and now sits perfectly abandoned after the causeway was deemed unsafe.
My sense is that, the Left doesn't dislike or distrust guns - they dislike them in the hands of private citizens.
The Left's statism runs so deep that no rifle or machine gun would perturb a liberal so long as the person wielding worked for the state.
So I suspect few would object to the police taking over a small harbor island and banning the public.
Because, hey - guns are fine in the hands of agents of the state. It's private citizens who shouldn't be allowed to play with guns.
Which is why when outright dictatorship arises in the US, it will be mostly supported by the American Left.
My sense is that, the Left doesn't dislike or distrust guns - they dislike them in the hands of private citizens.
The Left's statism runs so deep that no rifle or machine gun would perturb a liberal so long as the person wielding worked for the state.
So I suspect few would object to the police taking over a small harbor island and banning the public.
Because, hey - guns are fine in the hands of agents of the state. It's private citizens who shouldn't be allowed to play with guns.
Which is why when outright dictatorship arises in the US, it will be mostly supported by the American Left.
2
Máire Ni Faodhagáin: Do you seriously think that keeping the public away from a large police shooting range is NOT a good idea?
As for your other rantings about "leftists", it sounds like you don't actually know any.
As for your other rantings about "leftists", it sounds like you don't actually know any.
3
Well the sad news is that "when outright dictatorship arises in the US" the people will not have a snowball's chance in hell to topple said dictatorship and that will be mostly because of the obscene amount of serious weapons of war furnished by the obscenely massive defense budgets that the American Right has been pushing for almost a century.
Closing the LI Bridge has nothing do to with the Moon Island. They are two completely different things - but then, you conspiracy theorists are always making connections that just aren't there.
2
These gun nuts really need to grow up. I find it difficult to imagine a reasonably intelligent adult getting pleasure out of shooting paint cans to watch them explode or any other target for that matter. Suffering from a lingering immaturity and a troubling insecurity over their general impotence to have an impact on the world, they take to shooting things to feel a rush of power. They should be banned from shooting in national forests unless hunting, another activity that suggests immaturity but that would be impossible to ban. By the way, why would anyone want to kill an animal for sport?
9
I don't kill them for sport I kill them because they are delicious.
Ya think?
In 1980, we bought 200 acres in Central NY. When deer hunting season began, we couldn't leave the house because of the shooting. One hunter sat on our deck with his gun, after crossing a No Trespassing sign that was string across the driveway. He was quite offended when we told him to leave and he also said that he'd been hunting there for years.
A friend had a stray bullet come through her baby's bedroom window. Some kids were shooting and didn't realize how fat the bullet could carry. Ignorance is part of the problem.
I think the backbackers and mountain bikers cause some damage with trails that cause erosion and leaving behind litter; it's not just the good guys against the bad guys. When we talk about the right to use public lands, there has to be a recognition that some areas are more sensitive than others and there is no right to use "our" land in ways that damage it. The tragic death of Mr. Martin might not be enough to disqualify shooters from using any public land, but it should be a wake-up call for rules that will prevent another tragedy. Part of the answer has to be restricting where shooting is allowed and it would help if those who want to preserve the right to shoot support requirements for a permitting system that includes an educational component.
A friend had a stray bullet come through her baby's bedroom window. Some kids were shooting and didn't realize how fat the bullet could carry. Ignorance is part of the problem.
I think the backbackers and mountain bikers cause some damage with trails that cause erosion and leaving behind litter; it's not just the good guys against the bad guys. When we talk about the right to use public lands, there has to be a recognition that some areas are more sensitive than others and there is no right to use "our" land in ways that damage it. The tragic death of Mr. Martin might not be enough to disqualify shooters from using any public land, but it should be a wake-up call for rules that will prevent another tragedy. Part of the answer has to be restricting where shooting is allowed and it would help if those who want to preserve the right to shoot support requirements for a permitting system that includes an educational component.
8
Too many guns, too many idiots shooting them. How much death and destruction has to be caused in this country before our gun epidemic is declared a public health crisis?
7
Don't you mean our GANG epidemic because if you look at real shooting statistics the majority of gunshot victims are young black males.
One would think that people who value their right to bear and use arms would at least be thoughtful enough to pick up their trash. As to the "petroglyph" guy, how do you know that what your looking at is ancient? That is, are you able to see the age of this versus that set of marks on a rock? And if it's the age of these markings that intrigues you I suggest that you consider the age of the land itself and its ability to erase the ravages of nature, including human graffiti.
1
150 year old wagon tracks are still visible in the western deserts of the US.
1
The people shooting at petroglyphs are no different than ISIS destroying historic monuments.
3
The Petroglyphs in the southwest are very distinctive and not remotely like modern graffiti. Only a fool would look at ancient Petroglyphs and think they were done yesterday. But we are talking about gun fools, after all. (and no, not all gun owners are fools...but the ones who are hurt all the responsible gun owners)
1
What this article fails to point out, is that the Forest Service closed the only public gun range that existed in this area about 5 years ago. The result was that many of the people that had previously used that range moved further into the mountains in that area to shoot. As a result you know have people shooting guns out of control in every hollow that offers a good shooting setup. The Forest Service has the blood of the Grandfather that was accidentally shot on their hands. Their closing of the range led directly to that incident and there will be more accidents like this if they don't re-open it. Before the shooting range contained the vast majority of shooters, now you have un-contained shooting going on all over the Pike National Forest. The previous range was messy and and an eyesore, but it did provide a place for people to safely shoot. Dismantling that gun range was a big mistake.
3
To blame the USFS for the unprovoked shooting of an innocent person on public land--and not the person who pulled the trigger-- is absurd! Shooting on public land inevitably imposes costs, noise, annoyances, safety concerns and risks on the greater number of non-shooting low-impact users of USFS, BLM, state and other public lands. The only appropriate place for target shooting in the 21st century reality of more and more users of public land is within a privately-owned, properly noise- and bullet-shielded building. One may have a "right to bear arms", but that does not necessarily extend to the right to shoot in the public commons to the detriment of other users, anymore than the right of free-speech allows one to project amplified pornographic music and speech in quiet wilderness campgrounds and other areas. I was an NRA member as a youth, but that entity has turned into a right-wing lobbying and propaganda organization that reflexively fights any reasonable attempt to address the externalities that irresponsible gun use imposes on the public.
4
What nonsense! They moron that shot a weapon into the woods without knowing where it would land is responsible.
2
This is an example of common sense needing to apply. It is easy to understand the allure of being able to shoot at long distances in a range that you have set up yourself. Much of the irresponsible behavior comes from various TV shows that glorify in destroying furniture, tvs, etc. on gun ranges. The following basic principles would go a long way to solving for this problem:
1. Segregation: don't mix people shooting lethal weapons with people camping. Designate land for each set of activity and enforce the segregation.
2. Have respect for the land - don't destroy what doesn't belong to you and don't leave your junk behind you - it's a basic rule of camping and living in a civilized society
3. If the land has historical artifacts on it then make it a national monument and make it off limits to destruction / vandalism of any sort
4. Use drones to enforce 1-3 .
The most interesting question is why hasn't someone come forward and provided their weapon that shot that gentleman? WE can't all be like Dick Cheney and avoid our basic responsibility.
1. Segregation: don't mix people shooting lethal weapons with people camping. Designate land for each set of activity and enforce the segregation.
2. Have respect for the land - don't destroy what doesn't belong to you and don't leave your junk behind you - it's a basic rule of camping and living in a civilized society
3. If the land has historical artifacts on it then make it a national monument and make it off limits to destruction / vandalism of any sort
4. Use drones to enforce 1-3 .
The most interesting question is why hasn't someone come forward and provided their weapon that shot that gentleman? WE can't all be like Dick Cheney and avoid our basic responsibility.
8
Shooters usually clean up after themselves. There are ALWAYS exceptions, but to exaggerate it like this is just political spin. As usual. Liberal campers make much more of a mess than Conservative shooters...
4
Isn't your last sentence also exaggeration for political spin?
9
So now campers are liberal, and shooters are conservative? We have a cancerous way of thinking in this country perpetuated by the ruthless right.
83
Nobody is exaggerating anything. I go all over the place deep into the woods to hike and take pictures and I always come across a big mess of animal carcass, shell casings, and beer cans. From Montana to California. Always is the stupid morons with the guns leaving the mess.
22
As an avid shooter and backpacker, this article is very misleading. It is a small percentage of shooters who are disrespectful to public lands, most do pick up their trash. It is, however, a much larger percentage of campers who do not even go into the wilderness. The article only mentions campers either "camped" right next to their vehicle, or very close to.. Perhaps these "backpackers seeking solitude" should get off their lazy rumps and ACTUALLY HIKE INTO THE BACKCOUNTRY. I've yet to find any solitude in a packed campground filled with motor vehicles. Last June I took a backpacking trip, saw no shooters, no trash (empty shells or trash targets), because where I went was actually the backcountry!! I couldn't have taken a vehicle there if my life depended on it.
This article is by and for those who drive out of their suburban home to a packed campground, bustling with people and vehicles, to 'enjoy nature.' Maybe the shooters in your neighborhood are just trying to do the same. I put 'enjoy nature' in quotes because the author has a pretty skewed view of what is 'natural' or 'backcountry.'
This article is by and for those who drive out of their suburban home to a packed campground, bustling with people and vehicles, to 'enjoy nature.' Maybe the shooters in your neighborhood are just trying to do the same. I put 'enjoy nature' in quotes because the author has a pretty skewed view of what is 'natural' or 'backcountry.'
6
So only campers camping near their vehicles should be in danger of being accidentally shot?
2
Well Kevin if I feel like camping - I shouldn't have to worry about being shot while watching the campfire. Is your answer that I just pack in my own rifle & shoot back - citing self-defense? Where's that going to end ? Oh and thanks for knowing nothing about me or my heritage. I can assure you that you'd be hard pressed to have been born & raised in a more rural gun using background . I got my first gun a Remington 22 with the plastic stock at 10 years old. I got it taken away by my Dad for shooting songbirds. I wasn't allowed to kill things for fun - only for food. Why do you have the right to mock people camping who can't hike to the "backcountry"? So no elderly, disabled, or young families have the right to have a decent experience in our Parks? What is you argument? It sounds like a very selfish one to me and very elitist.
2
So, the car campers don't have a right to not be shot? Only purist back-country hikers get to be safe? Your argument appears to be that the camper got shot because he wasn't camping correctly. That's plain stupid.
“Just the same as there should be areas on public lands for people to go mountain biking or mountain climbing, there should be areas for shooters,” said Lars Dalseide, an N.R.A. spokesman.
**************************
Why? So these gunsters can shoot holes in Half Dome? I have a similar problem with dirt bikes, skidoos, etc; that rip up the trails with noise and ruts. Whatever happened to Thoreau's maxim, "This curious world we inhabit…is more wonderful than convenient; more beautiful than useful; it is more to be admired and enjoyed than used."
**************************
Why? So these gunsters can shoot holes in Half Dome? I have a similar problem with dirt bikes, skidoos, etc; that rip up the trails with noise and ruts. Whatever happened to Thoreau's maxim, "This curious world we inhabit…is more wonderful than convenient; more beautiful than useful; it is more to be admired and enjoyed than used."
10
Firearms are banned in Yosemite. There are very few public ranges in CA. The state is regulating people out of a constitutional right, and a means of self defense in the backcountry. I was the first person of the year to make the summit of Crown Point. Growing up in western Montana, I felt very uncomfortable going into Bear country without a firearm, but it's illegal there. I guess strong language will stop a charging angry bear since the sight of a safe, legal, firearm scares most Californians.
Per your quote, perhaps you should stay home and enjoy the nature channel.
Per your quote, perhaps you should stay home and enjoy the nature channel.
Kevin ever heard of bear mace? And maybe you should stay home & watch the nature channel if you're uncomfortable. Right back at you with the condescending advise!
I used to be afraid of encounters with bears, wolves or mountain lions, and after a fairly close encounter with one of these magnificent felines I took the habit of turning on some high-volume hard rock whenever I go hiking deep into wild territory.
Now it seems I must also wear a bulletproof vest and an orange jumpsuit, just in case one of these dumb gun-wielding yokels decides to shoot his latest man-toy in my general direction.
I have had enough of this idiotic gun culture. What is wrong with these people? Maybe they should all be prescribed the blue pills, as they clearly must suffer from some kind of masculinity deficiency which they compensate by shooting bullets all over our public lands!
Now it seems I must also wear a bulletproof vest and an orange jumpsuit, just in case one of these dumb gun-wielding yokels decides to shoot his latest man-toy in my general direction.
I have had enough of this idiotic gun culture. What is wrong with these people? Maybe they should all be prescribed the blue pills, as they clearly must suffer from some kind of masculinity deficiency which they compensate by shooting bullets all over our public lands!
17
All this is more false statistics and lies by the anti-gun organizations. As an avid hiker, I have spent literally hundreds of weekends out in our national forests. I have only heard a few shors and that was during hunting season. This is another lie filled article by those who want to strip us of our second amendment rights. People need to ask why? They aren't trying to do this for the reasons they claim.
3
Sure, Mark. Your personal experience translates into the entire territory of the United States. Guess that family can cheer up since the man wasn't killed by an idiot.
There are responsible gun owners. They aren't the type that automatically wants to be able to shoot their guns all the time, all the place.
As some Australian comedian said - people like you have to admit you don't care about the 2nd Amendment. You just Really Like Guns.
There are responsible gun owners. They aren't the type that automatically wants to be able to shoot their guns all the time, all the place.
As some Australian comedian said - people like you have to admit you don't care about the 2nd Amendment. You just Really Like Guns.
3
Who is "they"?
I spend most of my time out in the national forests and BLM land around Colorado and Utah as well and the sound of gunfire IS pervasive just about anywhere you go nowadays. I've had bullets whiz by my head on many occasions and have reported it to the police asap. It has to stop! It seems there are far more irresponsible gun owners than there ever used to be. Everyone has an attitude that it's their constitutional right to have guns anywhere and everywhere and that's patently not true. As for gun owners feeling they have the right to use forest and BLM land for shooting and other passive uses -hiking, biking, horseback riding, fishing... none of them can kill someone from a quarter mile away or more.
"“Every time in the woods, you feared for your life,” he said. “It was absolutely, completely out of hand.” As dangerous as Chicago or Detroit? I think not.
4
We reap what we sow. A nation in thrall to a pack of menacing lunatics like the NRA gets what it deserves; turning back organizations that treat this country like their own private leisure-time preserve takes action beyond social media carping. We must all demand of our legislators - loudly, forcefully, consistently - that they grow a spine and stand up to the thugs of the NRA.
10
I live here and hike A LOT. Im not seeing this type a thing at all. I might hear gun shots once every blue moon, but thats it. This article is just another by the ant gun zealots to push an agenda, and fear monger the big city folks. Clean up the messes in your own large metropolitan areas before you point fingers out here. And if you dont like the fact that many of us out here hunt, target practice, and enjoy our 2nd amendment rights, please stay home.
3
Your assumption is that anyone complaining about this are "big city folk." And how about those who can't shoot and hunt responsibly stay home.
2
The threat of false equivalency raises its head.
"'Just the same as there should be areas on public lands for people to go mountain biking or mountain climbing, there should be areas for shooters,' said Lars Dalseide, an N.R.A. spokesman."
While I agreethe position of gun advocates and shooters was vital for this article, this quote should be countered as well: The people who want to go mountain biking and climbing, hiking, camping, fishing and even simply hunting, are not putting the lives of other land users at risk. That is the difference between those wishing to shoot at stuff and hikers, campers, bikers, etc. Shooters should not have land available for their pastime.
People doing things that are dangerous to others are usually A) not allowed to do them or B) required to do them in a controlled environment where the potential for harm to people is greatly reduced and limited to only those taking part in the activity. When I go hiking, I am not putting the lives of others at risk so I don't need to be regulated as heavily as those shooting guns do (though I am still (in order to protect the environment) which I don't fight). When you go shooting historic monuments, couches and trees in areas frequented by others, you are the danger and should be confined to de-populated areas (if you must shoot outside), private land or indoor shooting ranges.
That, Mr. Dalseide, is the major difference between how mountain bikers and shooters should be treated on public land.
"'Just the same as there should be areas on public lands for people to go mountain biking or mountain climbing, there should be areas for shooters,' said Lars Dalseide, an N.R.A. spokesman."
While I agreethe position of gun advocates and shooters was vital for this article, this quote should be countered as well: The people who want to go mountain biking and climbing, hiking, camping, fishing and even simply hunting, are not putting the lives of other land users at risk. That is the difference between those wishing to shoot at stuff and hikers, campers, bikers, etc. Shooters should not have land available for their pastime.
People doing things that are dangerous to others are usually A) not allowed to do them or B) required to do them in a controlled environment where the potential for harm to people is greatly reduced and limited to only those taking part in the activity. When I go hiking, I am not putting the lives of others at risk so I don't need to be regulated as heavily as those shooting guns do (though I am still (in order to protect the environment) which I don't fight). When you go shooting historic monuments, couches and trees in areas frequented by others, you are the danger and should be confined to de-populated areas (if you must shoot outside), private land or indoor shooting ranges.
That, Mr. Dalseide, is the major difference between how mountain bikers and shooters should be treated on public land.
10
This is the kind of silly article I expect from the NYT. yes, there are people that are irresponsible and should show more respect for the environment. But this is no where near the crisis that morons in this article make it out to be.
What is really irresponsible are people that are wiling to do away with the 2nd amendment. Even more scary is that some of these same people would try to deny my 1st amendment rights. Fools.
What is really irresponsible are people that are wiling to do away with the 2nd amendment. Even more scary is that some of these same people would try to deny my 1st amendment rights. Fools.
2
JohnD, I am not sure how old you are but from my perspective this reality (not a crisis, I agree with that) has been amplified in the last twenty years or so--there are just more people shooting off more guns on public land, and leaving trash behind, than in the past.
1
I see all the Liberal tree huggers who like to use all the parks and nature reserves that were established for HUNTERS and the taxes they pay for the permits and ammo they buy want to restrict them. Guns have been in the wilderness and the forests far longer than that SUV you like to park in a camp ground and litter to your hearts content. Or trail riding and eroding the land away with tires and feet. You want the land to be pristine, stay out of it, but dont think you have the right to tell Citizens they dont have the same rights as you simply because of a few bad people.
3
Typical assertion that anyone who raises a concern about guns must be a liberal tree hugger from a city. And please review your history, our National Parks and other reserves were not established for hunters only.
3
this has happen forever, City people going to the deep woods and have never been there before and then they see that people with guns are there! Oh NO! If I knew they had people with GUNS out in the sticks I would have stayed in the city. Im 53 years old and as long as I've been alive people go to the woods to shoot, You city folk just need to be tolerant of other cultures that have been here for centuries. You guys can be tolerant of other cultures from other countries that cut off each others heads, But when it comes to my culture here in the USA, we need to stop that.
2
I've posted this as a reply to another comment, but here goes again:
Typical assertion that anyone who raises a concern about guns must be a liberal tree hugger from a city.
Stacy, shooting in the woods may have been "happening forever" but with increased population there are far more people, and far more idiots, out there in our woods trashing them and shooting with no regard for anyone.
Your rural folk vs. city folk cliche is tired.
Typical assertion that anyone who raises a concern about guns must be a liberal tree hugger from a city.
Stacy, shooting in the woods may have been "happening forever" but with increased population there are far more people, and far more idiots, out there in our woods trashing them and shooting with no regard for anyone.
Your rural folk vs. city folk cliche is tired.
4
I am a target shooter, and think this is wrong on many levels. Use an established range area for safety and pick up after yourself! Just irresponsible.
105
"... the People's Right to bear arms shall not be infringed."
Pretty straightforward. Now, if the courts found that the "well regulated militia" stipulation in the 2nd Amendment was the primary, necessary qualification for citizens owning and using private weapons, not mere citizenship itself, we might find a way out of this mess.
Pretty straightforward. Now, if the courts found that the "well regulated militia" stipulation in the 2nd Amendment was the primary, necessary qualification for citizens owning and using private weapons, not mere citizenship itself, we might find a way out of this mess.
I am baffled as to why the federal government owns so much land in the western states. They need to divest themselves as much as reasonable to the private sector and the States, and let the new land owners secure their property. This will allow the government to better utilize their resources on much less area.
As a paralegal in San Diego in the 1980s I worked on a case where a rural school teacher was hit by a stray bullet that had been shot by hunters who were up in mountains well over a mile from the school. At the very least there should be a tax on bullets to create a compensation fund for victims of gunshot wounds. Better still, put a $500 annual tax on each weapon. That would slow the mayhem down.
10
Repeal and replace..... the 2nd.
7
A real great wedge issue for doing away with the Bill of Rights, isn't it?
You have a better chance of flying to the Moon by pointing at it, snapping your fingers and saying "take me there".
I grew up with guns. On a very large Midwestern farm. Any family member shooting randomly had their rifles taken by my father immediately. We were all aware of the lethal potential of shooting. I can't even imagine arguing with him that it was my constitutional right to shoot up our cows, pigs, chickens, and farm buildings because I felt like it. Yet the NRA has successfully argued that our parklands are shooting ranges and shooters can destroy whatever they feel like shooting. And yes - bullets destroy things. It really is time to take these rogue shoot at everything/anything gun nuts on. The NRA & those out of control must shoot everything without any thoughts of consequences should be held financially liable for the death or maiming of any person/animal and the destruction of any parklands. That is the only thing they'll understand. I bet the person who murdered the camper wasn't even aware of the death that resulted from their fun shooting. That says it all right there. Get them off public lands.
21
I like how the article was written with some anecdotal stories in order to broadly paint a situation the journalist knows little about. Even better that you city dwellers here smugly pass judgment against how we enjoy the outdoors. Go back to your latte's, checkered shirts, skinny jeans and effeminate boyfriends. They're all yours.
4
Our skinny jeans never killed anyone unlike the bullets from your guns.
1
Fluoric, why do you assume the journalist doesn't know anything about the outdoors or guns? And why do you assume everyone commenting here are city dwellers. Haven't you read the comments from those who grew up with guns who also agree this is a problem? And that last sentence of yours shows some laughable stereotyping of people in cities.
2
I've seen the same "cultural divide" between swowmobiles and cross country skiers in Wyoming and Idaho. I happen to be bi. I both love driving a snowmobile (especially drunk at night) and I like the people who do that and I love a long day of cross country exercise in solitude and I like the people who do that too. Solution is to just keep them apart. they will never get along and they make each other miserable. This 100 square miles is for your winter sport and this other 100 square miles is for yours.
Drunk drivers kill people hopefully you hit a tree killing only yourself.
Who ever holds Congress to any of its constitutional responsibilities, censors? It seem people are only paid to obscure its rank misinterpretations of plain English.
1
Members of Congress swear an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. It is their "Constitutional responsibility", as you put it. The Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution. They do precisely as you advise.
Here's the response I got after contacting the sheriff's office, when high powered rounds were tearing through the trees & underbrush 50 yards in front of our vacation cabin from an unseen source.
"Sir, there's no law against using poor judgement, but if you're being shot at, be sure & call us."
After a commercial freezer was dumped in front of our door, trash scattered around & a flash fire scorched trees above the snow line, we gave up the place.
"Sir, there's no law against using poor judgement, but if you're being shot at, be sure & call us."
After a commercial freezer was dumped in front of our door, trash scattered around & a flash fire scorched trees above the snow line, we gave up the place.
6
Out west where I live, shooters volunteer to go out and clean up shooting debris left by other stupid shooters...and people that dump their household garbage because they don't want to pay the dump fees...then there are those hikers that leave their trash, their alcohol containers, and fire pits for everyone to enjoy.
The point is, dangerous, thoughtless, stupid people are everywhere whether they are behind their cell phones, the wheel of a car or the trigger on a gun.
The point is, dangerous, thoughtless, stupid people are everywhere whether they are behind their cell phones, the wheel of a car or the trigger on a gun.
6
“Shooters are getting frustrated and upset,” Mr. Pedersen said. “What gives the B.L.M. the right to go down and shut it down on a whim?”
Umm...Congress and the Constitution?
Umm...Congress and the Constitution?
10
There must be something very wrong with people whose hobby is to pack a car full of guns and ammo for a trip to public land and start shooting at stuff.
5
On summer weekends some of my otherwise normal middle-age friends load their SUV with assorted guns, ammo, picnic baskets and teenagers; drive a hundred miles to some high desert canyon; unload; set up; picnic; and blast away.
I am pro gun rights but whole heartedly agree that this problem is way out of hand in California's Los Padres National Forest near where I live half time. Three years ago while solo bushwhacking, I was pinned down in a ravine for 90 minutes while a couple of knuckleheads rained lead down on me from the side of the road. I was screaming at them to stop but they couldn't hear me because they had so much sustained firepower.
I had just enough cell phone signal to call the SB County Sheriffs who rescued me. The shooters were cited, paid a small fine, and were prohibited from entering the national forest for one year.
Their guns should have been permanently confiscated and they should have had to do some kind of mandatory service work. Like with so many things in our society, irresponsible people have undermined our rights and safety.
I had just enough cell phone signal to call the SB County Sheriffs who rescued me. The shooters were cited, paid a small fine, and were prohibited from entering the national forest for one year.
Their guns should have been permanently confiscated and they should have had to do some kind of mandatory service work. Like with so many things in our society, irresponsible people have undermined our rights and safety.
14
Aren't all the bullets litter? So aren't they littering? And isn't littering illegal? So aren't they breaking the law by littering?
Land managers should be giving littering tickets unless they pick up their bullets.
Land managers should be giving littering tickets unless they pick up their bullets.
3
Pick up your balls I think you left them at home when you put your dress on this morning.
I get both sides. I enjoy going out to the west desert 2 valleys over where there are not even trees. That is a good place to shoot. Just pack out your targets. What I don't get are people that go in to the rugged forested mountains where you can't really see what is ahead or behind you and just shoot. Mostly north of SLC in the Mountains east of Davis County and once in the mountains between SL County and Morgan County I have been hiking in canyons and have heard bullets whizzing overhead. No it wasn't hunting season. It is dangerous and frightening. It is beyond irresponsible to shoot towards anything that doesn't backstop into something that will absorb the bullets. Like mounds of earth. The fact that anyone without a record can just go buy a gun and have it with them in public without any insurance, license, or registration makes zero sense to me. The constitution guarantees the freedom of movement; but we still have to register our vehicles, carry insurance, pass a proficiency test, and get a license to operate it if you want to use them in public. The same should be true to use and carry guns in public. If it was, I think incidents like the above and like the ones described in this article would be far less common.
3
On both sides of Yosemite, we've had catastrophic fires (one burned 40 homes, and another still rages) started by target shooting into rocks. The NRA is a menace America.
7
I always get a kick out of city people's view of country people's values. Can you please just admit that you want to control how other people live and that you only value freedom so long as we agree with you?
2
Can you please just admit you want to excercise your rights without any sense of responsibility?
Ok. I admit it. I want to control what other people do when what they do is dangerous to the life and well-being of others.
Phew. That feels good to admit. Thanks for letting me open up.
Phew. That feels good to admit. Thanks for letting me open up.
1
Thinking its only "city people" with anti-NRA opinions is idiotic...lots of us "mountain folk" are sick and tired of sub-par intellects and firearms mixing in an unregulated fashion.
2
Accidents happen. The vast majority are not gun-related accidents.
Sometimes fatal accidents happen. The vast majority of them are not gun-related fatal accidents.
Sometimes fatal accidents happen. The vast majority of them are not gun-related fatal accidents.
I wish this was news. Friends and I noticed pings and dings around our campsite in the George Washington National Forest nearly 40 years and ran out to find a dad teaching his youngsters to shoot 22 rifles. They never considered that other folks were in the primitive camping area and were shooting at a sloped embankment that directed the strays toward us. It still gives me chills so I'm in favor of setting aside some NF acreage for shooting ranges.
The picture accompanying the article is also bothersome. I wonder what will happen to all the trash in the truck bed and the clay pigeons that the young boy in blue is loading up in his thrower. I'll bet no one is going to bother cleaning up that debris or the spent casings.
The picture accompanying the article is also bothersome. I wonder what will happen to all the trash in the truck bed and the clay pigeons that the young boy in blue is loading up in his thrower. I'll bet no one is going to bother cleaning up that debris or the spent casings.
2
"People complain about ... being pinned down by gunfire where a hiking or biking trail crosses a makeshift target range."
Unbelievable! We've turned our OWN parks and wilderness areas into Beirut, Mosul, or the West Bank...
Unbelievable! We've turned our OWN parks and wilderness areas into Beirut, Mosul, or the West Bank...
10
Just another aspect of America's deeply foolish infatuation with guns. I don't know about gun "rights," but shouldn't (uh, law-abiding) citizens have a reasonable expectation that they aren't going to get caught in a perpetual shooting gallery no matter where they go?
7
As a gun owner I am infuriated by this. With gun rights come very heavy responsibility. This is outlandish behavior, and the NRA is once again over the top in defending shooting on public land. Shooting ranges should have identifiable backdrops. And responsible gun owner knows this.
11
The proliferation of guns in our country is so frightening to me. As guns become more and more available and widespread, I feel that my life gets smaller and smaller. Don't take a jog, shop at a store, hike in the wilderness, go to the movies, and please!, don't go to church, because someone carrying a gun, with intention or otherwise, will shoot and kill you. The guns get more prolific and everyone's lives get smaller. Where can I go in America where I won't feel like my life is in danger?
4
And yet gun death rates have been falling for 20 years and continue to fall. In fact the gun death rate is 50% of what it was in the early 1990s
Gun owner and nature lover both. I have done some shooting in the national forests in Colorado. Non-NRA member, because the organization seems to want to pretend that gun-owners are always the aggrieved party, instead of encouraging some serious self-policing of gun owner behavior.
I learned to shoot from my father. He already knew how to shoot as a kid, but being in the military meant he also was trained to shoot safely -- and well. he was the top .45 shooter in one of the military's competitions back in the day (early 60s). You never, EVER shoot without a backstop you know will safely block and catch your rounds, including ricochets.
Unless there's a war on -- and it seems that some think they have this liberty whenever they lock and load.
Spray and pray seems to be the watchword of the modern gun enthusiasts. That and an arrogant attitude that it's their right to do so. No, it's your right to possess firearms. You are still required -- and should be held responsible -- for what you do with a firearm.
Paradoxically, most of these over-the-top advocates for the 2nd Amendment also are strong supporters of personal responsibility -- for others.
I'm going to be more than a little miffed next time I'm in Colorado and some punk gunners have made it difficult for me to safely shoot as I used to do. That will happen, not because of some "liberal gun haters" but because of irresponsible gun ownership -- something which the 2nd Amendment rightfully provides no cover for.
I learned to shoot from my father. He already knew how to shoot as a kid, but being in the military meant he also was trained to shoot safely -- and well. he was the top .45 shooter in one of the military's competitions back in the day (early 60s). You never, EVER shoot without a backstop you know will safely block and catch your rounds, including ricochets.
Unless there's a war on -- and it seems that some think they have this liberty whenever they lock and load.
Spray and pray seems to be the watchword of the modern gun enthusiasts. That and an arrogant attitude that it's their right to do so. No, it's your right to possess firearms. You are still required -- and should be held responsible -- for what you do with a firearm.
Paradoxically, most of these over-the-top advocates for the 2nd Amendment also are strong supporters of personal responsibility -- for others.
I'm going to be more than a little miffed next time I'm in Colorado and some punk gunners have made it difficult for me to safely shoot as I used to do. That will happen, not because of some "liberal gun haters" but because of irresponsible gun ownership -- something which the 2nd Amendment rightfully provides no cover for.
259
Before the state of Kansas banned target shooting in my favorite public hunting area I was often trying to hunt while it sounded like a war going on a mile or two away.
The "Gun Rights" folks are trying to declare their own "no go zones" for themselves. A 'Ya'll keep out of the forests and national parks cause they is ours now' stance.
The responsible gun owners are going to have to pick a side, they themselves have been doing the right thing all these years, but a bunch of yabos are taking over and making it difficult for everyone else including the responsible gun owners.
The responsible gun owners are going to have to pick a side, they themselves have been doing the right thing all these years, but a bunch of yabos are taking over and making it difficult for everyone else including the responsible gun owners.
3
There are irresponsible, destructive fools of every stripe. Hold them personally responsible. This is nothing more than another attempt to turn public opinion against the second amendment.
3
How about the massive flood of illegals who trash, smash, and destroy once pristine land in southern Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, and California? The border crossing areas are absolutely choked with trash from Mexico.
Facts please? Details?
Articles references? Sneaking in with clothes on yr back and garbage?
Articles references? Sneaking in with clothes on yr back and garbage?
How about staying on topic?
“Shooters are getting frustrated and upset,” Mr. Pedersen said. “What gives the B.L.M. the right to go down and shut it down on a whim?”
The fact that you're a danger to passers-by, that's what.
The fact that you're a danger to passers-by, that's what.
8
I live in northern colorado very close to a portion of the roosevelt national forest. I get very tired of listening to gun nuts shooting in the forest. I am sure the deer and other animals are tired of it too. Most of the shooting seems to be done with semiautomatic rifles based on the sound and rapid fire. It is insane to allow shooting in places that are open to the public. atvs and motorbikes are not allowed-a good thing-but guns are. Really stupid. How did we get into this mess where a few gun nuts and the nra dictate policy on public lands.
6
Public lands/ NRA dictates our gun policy, period. Who's in charge here?
1
Jack, your article is misleading. Debris with bullet holes in a remote location provides no information about who dumped that debris. Illegal dumping is a problem everywhere there is a place one might do it unobserved, quite independent of shooting. By far the majority of dumped items will have a history of A) being dumped by one idiot, B) being shot by any number of other idiots, before C) being removed by someone who cares, who may ALSO have shot it first.
Also, you claim people are picking up clay pigeons as part of "20 tons of trash a year"... these are the one thing you've mentioned that are necessarily brought and left by the person who shot them. I certainly hope no one is wasting effort picking them up. Clays are made from pitch and crushed limestone, are 100% natural material, and disintegrate when they get wet. Picking them up with be foolish... you might as well carry out rocks to "clean up".
Also, you claim people are picking up clay pigeons as part of "20 tons of trash a year"... these are the one thing you've mentioned that are necessarily brought and left by the person who shot them. I certainly hope no one is wasting effort picking them up. Clays are made from pitch and crushed limestone, are 100% natural material, and disintegrate when they get wet. Picking them up with be foolish... you might as well carry out rocks to "clean up".
1
The gun nuts continue to make our public spaces and public lands less and less usable. Want to shoot? Go to a designated range or hunt on designated lands during hunting season. Other than that, just keep your guns unloaded and locked up safely.
4
America is obsessed with individual rights at the expense of the rights of society.
What happened to "Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness" for everybody?
Too many guns and too many crazy people with too many guns.
What happened to "Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness" for everybody?
Too many guns and too many crazy people with too many guns.
6
I've been an avid shooter of targets since about age 8. I learned to shoot in the Boy Scouts in Glens Falls NY. I was also on a high school rifle team in PA. In upstate New York all of my young friends and myself all had pop-rifles and of course, the ubiquitous Daisy lever action BB gun. We often went into the woods and shot paper targets or tin cans. Often our fathers or a Scout Master would take us out to shoot .22 rifles. Under very strict supervision. We didn't fool around. We didn't shoot at targets without a backstop and certainly we did not shoot if we didn't know what we were shooting at. There were rules of safety for ourselves and others and we obeyed them unquestionably.
I believe that the current problem is one of inexperienced and unknowing, generally very ignorant and oblivious new shooters who have no regard for their safety least of all the safety of others. The killing of an innocent man by a so-called "stray bullet" is beyond comprehension. Responsible shooters always know where the bullets are going. There are no accidents. Only carelessness and blatant disregard for others. Guns are pointed deliberately before the trigger is pulled. Anyone doing so has a strict responsibility to know where they are pointing it and what's on the other side of a rise. I would criminally prosecute anyone who points a gun, fires and then claims they didn't know a person was on the other side of the rise. That is just too incredible to accept as an excuse. End this.
I believe that the current problem is one of inexperienced and unknowing, generally very ignorant and oblivious new shooters who have no regard for their safety least of all the safety of others. The killing of an innocent man by a so-called "stray bullet" is beyond comprehension. Responsible shooters always know where the bullets are going. There are no accidents. Only carelessness and blatant disregard for others. Guns are pointed deliberately before the trigger is pulled. Anyone doing so has a strict responsibility to know where they are pointing it and what's on the other side of a rise. I would criminally prosecute anyone who points a gun, fires and then claims they didn't know a person was on the other side of the rise. That is just too incredible to accept as an excuse. End this.
11
when the governments local and otherwise remove all the legal places to shoot or target practice what do you expect to happen? I have seen the places to shoot or target practice go from many many to none from childhood to present day; today there are 3 commercial ranges that are price pointed to keep most from using them, and none on the edges of wooded areas. there was one that cones to mind that we used from my childhood until a few years ago when the state bought it and closed it down to at least thousands that used it on friday through sunday. When I was a teen we would go after school a 20 mile drive with a few friends and pick up discarded brass that we would reload then bring it back on saturdays and shoot it up. So when you remove legitimate areas people will make their own
This is nothing more than senseless destruction perpetuated by a group of people (gun nuts) who claim they are all responsible, law abiding citizens. Our gun culture is a sickness, a cancer which needs to be excised.
5
For those who think this is biased gun-owner bashing, tell that to Mr. Martin's family. He was fishing in a place our family gathered and fished for decades. No more. The easy accessibility of guns and the belief held by some that their right to bear and shoot guns wherever and whenever they please have made churches, malls, movie theaters, national parks, and grocery stores a threatening place for everyone else. The wild west rules and he with the most guns win. Is this what we really want? What will YOU do about it?
177
No, we don't need to tell Mr. Martin's family anything. Using a person to illicit emotional outrage is typical of liberals. So one man dies and we are supposed to punish everyone for the actions of one?
The person responsible for killing Mr. Martin should pay the price for his actions, not force all of us to have to.
The person responsible for killing Mr. Martin should pay the price for his actions, not force all of us to have to.
America's perverse love affair with guns and near reverential adulation for its 2nd Amendment rights now plague the country with wanton gun violence 24/7. The NRA is nothing more than a "shill" gun lobbyist for the military-industrial complex, ensuring that the world's weapons manufacturing and sales flows unconscionably. Thanks Founding Fathers.
2
The map is interesting, because Colorado, California, Washington, Oregon and New Mexico are not the first states that come to mind when it comes to "irresponsible gun owners". I'm not surprised by Arizona and Nevada, but the geography of shooting violations simply doesn't mix with gun culture base well.
The map is interesting, because Colorado, California, Washington, Oregon and New Mexico are not the first states that come to mind when it comes to "irresponsible gun owners".
Why not? Do you think that these states aren't full of ignoramuses, too?
Why not? Do you think that these states aren't full of ignoramuses, too?
To follow the concealed-carry argument to its logical conclusion: If all backpackers carried guns everyone would be safer. All they'd need to do is shoot back at the source of the stray bullets.
1
I was on the rifle team in junior high school but I have no interest in guns as an adult. If I did, I would return to the proper place for target practice, the gun range. These gun owners have no right to put our safety and enjoyment of public lands at risk.
1
Take a look at all that litter in that pick-up truck.
This is what I call a magic trash can. By the time those turkeys have driven home, the bed of that pickup will be swept clean.
This is what I call a magic trash can. By the time those turkeys have driven home, the bed of that pickup will be swept clean.
2
This is definitely a liberal slant on this issue. I am sure that laws are broken by some shooters but I'm just as sure laws are broken by motorcyclist, atv riders. Campers, and just plain people who don't care about protecting wilderness areas. Shooters have been using most of these areas long before they became popular for other uses. One of the problems is people moving on to land thats never been populated before. Personally I am tired of being blamed for all of Americas problems because I enjoy firearms, shooting,and being able to protect myself and my family. Before blaming shooters for all the evil done some of you need to look in the mirror.
30
And if you should look in a mirror you'd see paranoia. By the logic in your first sentence, motorcyclists and ATV riders are liberals.
1
I do not know how many times I have went hiking in Montana where I lived for four years and had to dodge bullets. You can whine all you like about 'liberal slant' but the reality is gun people make everybody else's lives miserable out in the woods of this country. In California it is the same; we hike miles and miles away from civilization to get away from the city slickers and foul hicks and what do we find when we get to our peaceful spot on the wild river? A bear head on a pole and several animal carcasses spread out all over the place. Beer cans and other garbage are strewn all over the place and you come on here and defend these animals to do this? I know many clean gun people, hunters and all and I learned how to shoot with my father a cop and my uncles as a child. Why is it that hunters never complain about other hunters that make messes and make life hard for anybody else in the woods or back country. Are they sacred to criticism because they carry a long phallic symbol that shoot a metal projectile or what? Until you other so-called good gun enthusiasts start to come down on all the thousands of horrible gun owners nothing will change. These creatures do not listen to anybody else and just dismiss their worries as being liberally slanted like you did.
4
"Personally I am tired of being blamed for all of Americas problems because I enjoy firearms,"......I understand your position, but you also have a personal responsibility. There are a significant number of people who treat firearms badly, and if you are a responsible gun owner, if you wish to continue to enjoy your sport, then you have an obligation to do a much better job at making sure that other firearm owners toe the line on safety. And don't tell me that collectively "you" are, cause it isn't happening. The truth is more like "you" are hell bent on defending every idiot who buys a gun.
2
I believe the responsible gun users out there, of which there are plenty, need to seize the initiative and educate and retrain their brethren from within and from top to bottom. There is a certain sense of social responsibility that is missing among some individuals that leaves me to wonder what was missing in their upbringing?
Leave the wilderness cleaner than you found it, be aware of and respectful of the presence of others and have more respect for the power and especially capabilities of the weapons you choose to shoot.
This is why I have more respect for bow hunters. They shoot short distances and usually from a height so a miss goes into the ground.
Leave the wilderness cleaner than you found it, be aware of and respectful of the presence of others and have more respect for the power and especially capabilities of the weapons you choose to shoot.
This is why I have more respect for bow hunters. They shoot short distances and usually from a height so a miss goes into the ground.
55
You are correct, the problem is since the removal of the Eddie Eagle program from schools and the fact that some folks were never raised around guns and are just now picking up the sport, the don't know the etiquette of firearms handling and range responsibility. The solution as with just about any issue we see today... is education pure and simple.
My father-in-law was a national champion bow shooter, he was out hunting in a group when one hunter shot at a deer across a clearing and hit another hunter in his party. In the leg, but those arrows are meant to do serious damage and it did.
Why anyone would want to shoot anything is beyond me. We should pay for surgery to "enhance manhood" and see if that mediates the desire.
Why anyone would want to shoot anything is beyond me. We should pay for surgery to "enhance manhood" and see if that mediates the desire.
I support the first two paragraphs of your comment. As to the last, even among bow hunters, there is the sorry example of Dr. Palmer, a professional man who was so irresponsible as to spend $50k in a illegal enterprise to inflict a slow and painful death upon a lion in the course of exercising his "passion" to set a bow hunting record, and left the desecrated corpse to feed the hyenas. Unguarded egos are not the exclusive domain of rural firearms owners.
I don't understand how there are no regulations for when and where you can shoot on public lands. There are regulations about when and where people can camp, hike, ride bicycles, motorcycles, 4-wheelers, etc. You are not allowed to ride on walking trails and there are some places where motorized vehicles are excluded to protect sensitive habitats and wildlife. Many places, you are not even supposed to leave the trails on foot to protect sensitive wilderness areas.
Are there really no restrictions or maps telling shooters where and in which direction they can shoot or restrictions on the times of day they are allowed to shoot? How is it possible that there are no restrictions about shooting towards trails, camping areas or culturally/historically important areas such as the petroglyphs? You can't set up camp close to lakes in Rainier National Park and you are not supposed to leave the designated trails.
While the number of guns in the US has been increasing the number of gun owners has been decreasing so fewer Americans have more guns. If gun owners do not start to police their own and insist on better behavior from all gun owners, they may find themselves losing more political battles as non-gun owners and truly responsible gun owners demand more responsible behavior.
Are there really no restrictions or maps telling shooters where and in which direction they can shoot or restrictions on the times of day they are allowed to shoot? How is it possible that there are no restrictions about shooting towards trails, camping areas or culturally/historically important areas such as the petroglyphs? You can't set up camp close to lakes in Rainier National Park and you are not supposed to leave the designated trails.
While the number of guns in the US has been increasing the number of gun owners has been decreasing so fewer Americans have more guns. If gun owners do not start to police their own and insist on better behavior from all gun owners, they may find themselves losing more political battles as non-gun owners and truly responsible gun owners demand more responsible behavior.
4
"While the number of guns in the US has been increasing the number of gun owners has been decreasing so fewer Americans have more guns. " -- This has been debunked numerous times. Repeating it doesn't make it true.
Now the problem is with a lack of education. And yes, maybe setting areas aside that are designated shooting zones. But the fact is simple, education is our solution.
Now the problem is with a lack of education. And yes, maybe setting areas aside that are designated shooting zones. But the fact is simple, education is our solution.
From Newsweek 3/10/15:
"The number of American households that own one or more guns has again reached its lowest point, according to data from a survey released March 3.
Gun ownership is now back at the low point it reached in 2010: Only 32 percent of Americans own a firearm or live with someone who does, compared with about half the population in the late 1970s and early 1980s, according to the 2014 General Social Survey (GSS). The survey is a project of independent research organization NORC at the University of Chicago, with principal funding from the National Science Foundation.
The poll also found that 22 percent of Americans personally own a firearm, down from a high of 31 percent in 1985. The percentage of men who own a firearm is down from 50 percent in 1980 to 35 percent in 2014, while the number of women who own a gun has remained relatively steady since 1980, coming in at 12 percent in 2014...
Though the number of firearm purchases has most likely gone up, according to data from the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check system, those firearms are owned by fewer individuals. In other words, the average gun owner probably owns more guns."
http://www.newsweek.com/us-gun-ownership-declines-312822
"The number of American households that own one or more guns has again reached its lowest point, according to data from a survey released March 3.
Gun ownership is now back at the low point it reached in 2010: Only 32 percent of Americans own a firearm or live with someone who does, compared with about half the population in the late 1970s and early 1980s, according to the 2014 General Social Survey (GSS). The survey is a project of independent research organization NORC at the University of Chicago, with principal funding from the National Science Foundation.
The poll also found that 22 percent of Americans personally own a firearm, down from a high of 31 percent in 1985. The percentage of men who own a firearm is down from 50 percent in 1980 to 35 percent in 2014, while the number of women who own a gun has remained relatively steady since 1980, coming in at 12 percent in 2014...
Though the number of firearm purchases has most likely gone up, according to data from the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check system, those firearms are owned by fewer individuals. In other words, the average gun owner probably owns more guns."
http://www.newsweek.com/us-gun-ownership-declines-312822
A clipping of every article describing the needless, cruel damage done by gun "enthusiasts"--every bit of shattered rock or foliage on public land, every damaged monument, every spray of bullet holes along the wall of a house or a school, and of course every dead tot or grandpa or movie fan--should be sent daily to Antonin Scalia and his chums on the Roberts Court, the authors of this bloody status quo.
They need a daily reminder of precisely what it is they've accomplished.
Their 2nd Amendment rulings emanate not from the constitution, but from a shrewd campaign of disinformation and agitprop; they act out of fealty, not to our founding principles, but the interests of the gun industry, the US Chamber of Commerce, and billion-dollar lobbies like the NRA.
These black-robed saboteurs have transformed us from a nation in which most of us managed to coexist with firearms enthusiasts into one in which the majority has effectively lost the right to be free and safe from fanatics and ideologues brandishing guns.
This Court has granted superior rights to a toxic minority that is paranoid, pathologically angry, often racist, and deeply indifferent to "collateral damage" in the form of dead schoolchildren, movie-goers, campers, hikers, and other innocents who've found themselves in the line of fire.
The rest of us, meanwhile, are under siege, effectively robbed of our right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The Court should own its role in this ugly new reality.
They need a daily reminder of precisely what it is they've accomplished.
Their 2nd Amendment rulings emanate not from the constitution, but from a shrewd campaign of disinformation and agitprop; they act out of fealty, not to our founding principles, but the interests of the gun industry, the US Chamber of Commerce, and billion-dollar lobbies like the NRA.
These black-robed saboteurs have transformed us from a nation in which most of us managed to coexist with firearms enthusiasts into one in which the majority has effectively lost the right to be free and safe from fanatics and ideologues brandishing guns.
This Court has granted superior rights to a toxic minority that is paranoid, pathologically angry, often racist, and deeply indifferent to "collateral damage" in the form of dead schoolchildren, movie-goers, campers, hikers, and other innocents who've found themselves in the line of fire.
The rest of us, meanwhile, are under siege, effectively robbed of our right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The Court should own its role in this ugly new reality.
6
You are robbed of nothing. Your fear mongering and emotional diatribe are just that. The fact is our rights are not derived from the Constitution but defined by it. Rights are derived from the creator. If you read you would understand this simple truth.
You have the right to choose just like every other person out there. You do not have the right to dictate, as your diatribe indicates you wish to do. Instead of taking a ridiculous stance, get off your high horse and be proactive in education. That is the solution.
You have the right to choose just like every other person out there. You do not have the right to dictate, as your diatribe indicates you wish to do. Instead of taking a ridiculous stance, get off your high horse and be proactive in education. That is the solution.
I belong to a gun club in rural New York and shoot clay pigeons for fun pretty often. Ive also hiked the West extensively, and even with the vast expanses, I cannot imagine not having designated areas for shooting rifles-- I single out rifles because the shotgun shells used for target shooting dissipate within what should be very visible range-- 750-1,000 ft tops.
One of the core tenets of gun safety is knowing what is behind your target-- i.e. some kind of earthen feature-- and ranges are designed with that in mind. Hunters are mostly conscious of this, but even assuming there are some dummies, at least there are hunting seasons, so I know when to dress bright and be cognizant of land use restrictions.
Shoot stuff on your own private property, or on a range. I love my Sunday GunDay and have a lot of respect for hunters, but I think its ridiculous to be shooting rifles at any time of year on public land.
One of the core tenets of gun safety is knowing what is behind your target-- i.e. some kind of earthen feature-- and ranges are designed with that in mind. Hunters are mostly conscious of this, but even assuming there are some dummies, at least there are hunting seasons, so I know when to dress bright and be cognizant of land use restrictions.
Shoot stuff on your own private property, or on a range. I love my Sunday GunDay and have a lot of respect for hunters, but I think its ridiculous to be shooting rifles at any time of year on public land.
4
I used to target shoot with a 22 rifle with my father so I understand the appeal.
I do not understand how some here can make any comparison to shooting—which is noise pollution, disruption/trauma to wildlife and non-shooting persons, potentially fatal to anything, damaging to natural features—to riding a bike or hiking on Federal or BLM lands. Not even the annoyingly loud and environmentally damaging motor bikes/ATVs come close to being so disruptive.
No one can block out sound and even if one were to wear headgear to do so, it would be very dangerous not to hear while walking in wilderness. That is not an option.
I wonder how many of these shooters know how far a rifle bullet can travel? In researching this, I discovered the average range is about a mile, obviously more powerful guns can reach over 2 miles. Shooting guns straight up (frequently done in drunken "celebration mode" I found the following:
"Firearms expert Julian Hatcher studied falling bullets in the 1920s and calculated that .30 caliber rounds reach terminal velocities of 90 m/s (300 feet per second). A bullet traveling at only 61 m/s (200 feet per second) to 100 m/s (330 feet per second) can penetrate human skin."
There is always a demographic among us that resents constraint even in the face of egregiously irresponsible behavior.
Designated firing ranges are the only way to go with this issue.
I do not understand how some here can make any comparison to shooting—which is noise pollution, disruption/trauma to wildlife and non-shooting persons, potentially fatal to anything, damaging to natural features—to riding a bike or hiking on Federal or BLM lands. Not even the annoyingly loud and environmentally damaging motor bikes/ATVs come close to being so disruptive.
No one can block out sound and even if one were to wear headgear to do so, it would be very dangerous not to hear while walking in wilderness. That is not an option.
I wonder how many of these shooters know how far a rifle bullet can travel? In researching this, I discovered the average range is about a mile, obviously more powerful guns can reach over 2 miles. Shooting guns straight up (frequently done in drunken "celebration mode" I found the following:
"Firearms expert Julian Hatcher studied falling bullets in the 1920s and calculated that .30 caliber rounds reach terminal velocities of 90 m/s (300 feet per second). A bullet traveling at only 61 m/s (200 feet per second) to 100 m/s (330 feet per second) can penetrate human skin."
There is always a demographic among us that resents constraint even in the face of egregiously irresponsible behavior.
Designated firing ranges are the only way to go with this issue.
3
I've lived in Montana and spent time biking and hiking in National Forests and I've had several experiences where I've heard guns going off around me and been uncertain if the shooters were firing in my direction or not and I've been pretty certain that they're unaware of where I was. I've had a few instances where I knew they were shooting in my direction because I could hear the bullets whizzing by in my direction while I've been on a well established trail or dirt road and I've heard of many more.
At a shooting range the targets are clearly on one side and the people are clearly on the other. The people don't go to the other end unless everyone stops shooting. Those safety standards just don't go with shooters into the forest. There is no one to make sure that the targets are immediately in front of a hillside that will stop errant bullets and there is no one who will stop someone from firing willy nilly in any direction. There is no regulation that prohibits shooting in the direction of a trail or campsite. There is no culture or tradition where shooters consider where their bullets are going after their target or of cleaning up any debris that is left behind. The Forest Service doesn't suggest or mandate these considerations either. I think shooters assume that these forests are so large that no one will be hit but this is a recipe for someone getting shot eventually.
At a shooting range the targets are clearly on one side and the people are clearly on the other. The people don't go to the other end unless everyone stops shooting. Those safety standards just don't go with shooters into the forest. There is no one to make sure that the targets are immediately in front of a hillside that will stop errant bullets and there is no one who will stop someone from firing willy nilly in any direction. There is no regulation that prohibits shooting in the direction of a trail or campsite. There is no culture or tradition where shooters consider where their bullets are going after their target or of cleaning up any debris that is left behind. The Forest Service doesn't suggest or mandate these considerations either. I think shooters assume that these forests are so large that no one will be hit but this is a recipe for someone getting shot eventually.
2
We used to camp in BC when we lived there and our son was under 6. He has been asking me why we don't go camping anymore. I had just been scouting locations online and read this article. We will take our camping back to Canada, a somewhat safer and saner country. Sadly too many Americans love to kill things even if it is an old bedpost.
6
The Utah culture is messed up. So glad I moved away.
2
You should see all the broken glass, casings and carnage found in all the urban areas.
And that picture of that bucket of trash is clearly on a shooting area. You can see the clays. Most shooting on public lands happens in a certain area as it has for dozens of years.
And that picture of that bucket of trash is clearly on a shooting area. You can see the clays. Most shooting on public lands happens in a certain area as it has for dozens of years.
1
Not true, and the article doesn't capture the bigger picture. Shooting is allowed anywhere on public land (not national parks) as long as you're no closer than 450 feet to a dwelling.
It's definitely NOT just like mountain biking, hiking or camping. None of those activities can cause the death of innocent people - like stray bullets do. And it seems many of these gun enthusiasts are slobs - leaving garbage behind - and many are destroying trees and artifiacts.
It's dumb - not surprised the NRA supports it.
It's dumb - not surprised the NRA supports it.
12
This is where we are today. Gun owners' "right" to shoot indiscriminately on public land and potentially cause grievous injury trumps the rights of others to use that land safely and with little impact to the land or others.
At some point we need to understand that these are "traditions" we can live without. And until then we can continue to have needless death and the resulting shrugging of shoulders, as if we're children too stupid to know better, even though we do.
At some point we need to understand that these are "traditions" we can live without. And until then we can continue to have needless death and the resulting shrugging of shoulders, as if we're children too stupid to know better, even though we do.
5
I live in Utah and own and shoot guns for sport. This article is cherry picking so bad it's laughable. Makes it sound like everyone here is an irresponsible, drunk deviant shooting up everything in sight. The vast majority go to remote locations and shoot against a high hill where no one can get hurt. The vast majority also don't take couches and other trash to shoot, and they clean up their ammo casings after their done. YES, there are completely irresponsible fools all over this country - we had one that tipped over a hoodoo in Goblin Valley not long ago. Doesn't mean we should shut down state parks and land for use just because of a few Jack-A's
3
Article with an agenda, as easily as it depicts in pictures the littering of forests they could have shown pictures of the so-called petroglyphs that were deliberately damaged. I call bull on the story, in Chicago criminals with illegal guns cause more damage to society in one microcosm in comparison. There are more deaths in the US in gun-free zones than in all public lands combined.
2
Inca Cola - preferred beverage of gun enthusiasts ?
1
Nation needs to build more outdoor ranges with a range officer.
Problem solved.
The reason hap-hazard and inexperienced shooters go to public areas to shoot, is they don't want to spend outrageous prices on indoor ranges.
There need to be public outdoor ranges were people can shoot reactive targets, with a range officer present to enforce good habits.
Problem solved.
The reason hap-hazard and inexperienced shooters go to public areas to shoot, is they don't want to spend outrageous prices on indoor ranges.
There need to be public outdoor ranges were people can shoot reactive targets, with a range officer present to enforce good habits.
1
Socrates,
According to your logic:
Biathlon = Terrorism?
Talk about false equivalency...
According to your logic:
Biathlon = Terrorism?
Talk about false equivalency...
Bad behavior is bad behavior no matter where it is or who does it.
Shooting is a very popular activity and there are some 100 different disciplines within the sport. Everything from the formal and tightly regulated sports of the Olympics to the more active "Action Shooting" sports with falling targets and shooters that run from point to point.
Plinking is the part of shooting being talked about here. The use of different objects for targets that have a response to being hit makes the activity more fun for the shooter. Sadly Plinking is not allowed on most regulated ranges as it often makes quite a mess as described in the report. Plinkers should join a local range and work to get a plinging area designated for the use of themselves and their fellow shooters.
Shooting is a very popular activity and there are some 100 different disciplines within the sport. Everything from the formal and tightly regulated sports of the Olympics to the more active "Action Shooting" sports with falling targets and shooters that run from point to point.
Plinking is the part of shooting being talked about here. The use of different objects for targets that have a response to being hit makes the activity more fun for the shooter. Sadly Plinking is not allowed on most regulated ranges as it often makes quite a mess as described in the report. Plinkers should join a local range and work to get a plinging area designated for the use of themselves and their fellow shooters.
1
As my old man used to say " Guns are not toys".
5
Just one more reason I am glad I moved to France some twenty years ago!
5
Why shooting is allowed in public land is beyond me. Another reason America is exceptional, and not in a good way.
9
Only in America...sigh.
4
Take one National Park any one, any where and designate it a Freedom Zone where 'at your own risk' anything goes, come camp, come shoot your guns, shoot your bow and arrows, dirt bike, swim naked, and smoke weed. No matter where you did this it would be the most popular park in the whole National Park system, and the line of cars, trucks, dirt bikes and 4 wheel drives to get in would start at dawn and stretch for miles.
1
Where have all the flowers gone?
4
Utah is currently working to seize federal lands and here you have another example where there aren't enough public lands.
As an advocate for sports not regularly enjoyed by most Utahns (like rock climbing and mountain biking for instance), I can relate to land usage disputes. In fact these battles are still alive in well in Utah's backcountry. Gun enthusiasts need to take a few queues from their dirtbagging and crag climbing companions if they want to keep sharing our public lands. First rule: leave no trace. Dragging a dump into the forest for fun is pretty far out of line with any environmental ethos. Leaving it there is grounds for expulsion.
Next, if you're regularly running into and disrupting the enjoyment of others (not to mention killing people), you're probably too close to a road and/or trail. You're not even allowed to use a bathroom within two hundred yards of a trail. Perhaps a mile or two is more appropriate for guns.
Third, you're hauling a lethal weapon into a shared public space. You don't think it freaks people out? I don't even like off leash dogs. You'd think there would be a bit more awareness and consideration before decrying the NRA and the second amendment. Your responsibility extends beyond the safety of the person shooting next to you.
As an advocate for sports not regularly enjoyed by most Utahns (like rock climbing and mountain biking for instance), I can relate to land usage disputes. In fact these battles are still alive in well in Utah's backcountry. Gun enthusiasts need to take a few queues from their dirtbagging and crag climbing companions if they want to keep sharing our public lands. First rule: leave no trace. Dragging a dump into the forest for fun is pretty far out of line with any environmental ethos. Leaving it there is grounds for expulsion.
Next, if you're regularly running into and disrupting the enjoyment of others (not to mention killing people), you're probably too close to a road and/or trail. You're not even allowed to use a bathroom within two hundred yards of a trail. Perhaps a mile or two is more appropriate for guns.
Third, you're hauling a lethal weapon into a shared public space. You don't think it freaks people out? I don't even like off leash dogs. You'd think there would be a bit more awareness and consideration before decrying the NRA and the second amendment. Your responsibility extends beyond the safety of the person shooting next to you.
124
I'm not sure why you think thinks shot on public lands would have been brought there by the (probably many) people who shot them as they sat there. The two things -- littering and shooting at litter -- have no inherent connection.
I stopped walking in Cedarville State Park in Maryland after too many times of running into men with guns on the hiking trails and hearing shots. I decided that it wasn't a safe place to be.
4
I have been shooting for 50 plus years, killed 2 dozen der, couple caribou, pheasnts duckd, turkey quail etc. Shot targets, real targets careful200 yd target shooting, clays .guns are a weapon of harvest not a toy for exploding paint cans, blazing away with an AK 47 at watermelons is a play thing, not a 2nd amendment right.
Strongly defend the right for a well managed and useful use of guns., appropriate hunting and use, but night time beer infused shooting, videogame style blazing away with semi automatics, blowing up garbagereally? A civil right? Seems like a taking by those who want to steal our public lands.
Strongly defend the right for a well managed and useful use of guns., appropriate hunting and use, but night time beer infused shooting, videogame style blazing away with semi automatics, blowing up garbagereally? A civil right? Seems like a taking by those who want to steal our public lands.
7
These are your 'well regulated militias' - designed to keep you safe!! Hurrah for the half-second amendment.
8
The NRA wants more guns in theaters, churches, shopping malls, beaches, mountains, forests...any restriction anywhere is the first step toward jackbooted government thugs taking your guns. When are the mythical responsible gun owners out there going to form their own organization that is more like what the NRA used to be before Charlton Heston used it as a second acting career, and call the NRA the menace to our country that it is?
17
News flash Kan, I take my legal CCDW weapons with me EVERYWHERE I go and that includes the theaters and shopping malls as well as the out doors. Just because you dont like it makes NO difference, you dont have the right to tell me I cant, since the Constitution does not give you the right to not be offended but it does secure my rights to do as I see fit. Try and stop me and lets see who comes out on top....
It's hardly a news flash. Anyone who wants to can carry a gun with as much firepower as he wants wherever he wants whenever he wants. There's a reason we have 30,000 gun deaths a year! Every gun-death gravestone, every shot up petroglyph should be adorned with an NRA insignia recognizing "Your NRA, working for you!"
The rest of us are still looking for those gun owners who recognize that freedom comes with responsibility. Does the NRA represent you? If you're really out there, why not create an organization that does?
The rest of us are still looking for those gun owners who recognize that freedom comes with responsibility. Does the NRA represent you? If you're really out there, why not create an organization that does?
People in general are lazy and non thinkers. I don't care if you're a shooter, hiker, biker, four wheeler, camper, rock hound, or doing whatever on public lands, all of these groups have a few idiots that are guilty of polluting, starting fires, and leaving behind more than foot prints when the go home. I've seen shooters leaving plastic shell casings and targets. Hikers leaving graffiti on trees, rocks, and over ancient petroglyphs. Bikers, four wheelers, cutting their own paths across the land instead of following existing roads and trails. You can't lump all people withinin any of these groups. Each has their own bunch of idiots. When I shoot I pick up my trash. I always follow the rules of gun saftey, which prevent you from shooting across roads, from roads, next to buildings, and allways have a backstop to shoot into. When I mountain bike or four wheel I stay on the existing trail. When I hike I always carry a fiream and water. Too many people wind up dead from thirst, bears, mountain lions, and drug dealers. I've used my firearm to alert other shooters that I am in the area and not to shoot in my direction....I grew up and spent most of my life out west where most of our counties are bigger than your east coast states. If you go far enough into the woods / desert, the less likely you will see anyone.
44
While I agree with your general sentiment, the perception of threat from animal attack in the backcountry seems exaggerated. A glimpse at wikipedia:
Fatalities by decade, US and Canada combined, from:
bears --black, brown, and polar:
1990s: 27;
2000s: 28;
2010s to date: 17
cougars:
1990s: 7;
2000s: 3
drug dealers on backcountry trails: no entry
dogs:
1990s: 30;
2000s figures climb dramatically, 20+ per month, which suggests a shift in reporting and classify incidents
sharks:
1990s: 12;
2000s: 11;
2010s to date: 6
Fatalities by decade, US and Canada combined, from:
bears --black, brown, and polar:
1990s: 27;
2000s: 28;
2010s to date: 17
cougars:
1990s: 7;
2000s: 3
drug dealers on backcountry trails: no entry
dogs:
1990s: 30;
2000s figures climb dramatically, 20+ per month, which suggests a shift in reporting and classify incidents
sharks:
1990s: 12;
2000s: 11;
2010s to date: 6
1
One question:
How did the existing roads and trails get there?
How did the existing roads and trails get there?
I have hiked and backpacked thousands of miles throughout the west. I also used to work for the BLM and visited many backcountry areas used by hunters, target shooters, gold dredgers, and ATV riders. In my experience, there is just no comparison between how nature is cared for by hikers versus other users. I recently climbed Mt. St. Helens for example. One hundred permits per day are issued, adding up to over 7000 climbers per summer. I am in the habit of picking up litter when I hike. During my long day, I came across only one little scrap of plastic. Our tent site at the base of the climb was clean as well. By comparison, the various areas I visited as a BLM employee were almost always littered with junk ranging from shotgun shells to entire bags of garbage to furniture. In my experience than, it is simply false equivalence to lump hikers together with other "users" of public lands. Hikers are motivated by a desire to experience nature. It makes no sense that they would carelessly trash it at the same time. By comparison, the other users I listed are there to take something from nature and are generally not motivated by a desire to experience nature. So they often trash it.
Getting hit by a stray bullet is no more dangerous than being attacked by a wild animal or being killed in a rock slide, both of which kill far more than accidental gun discharges or stray bullets.
This is just one more way gun grabbing fascists are intent on removing gun rights.
This is just one more way gun grabbing fascists are intent on removing gun rights.
1
If gun enthusiasts were careful nobody would ever be hit by a stray bullet. At least having a family member killed by a wild animal I could understand. Now, run along and play with your guns, child.
Tell that to the family of Glenn Martin, who was sitting by a campfire and was killed by a stray bullet.
And do you know how many people have been killed by mountain lions in the last 100 years in the U.S.?
20
And do you know how many people have been killed by mountain lions in the last 100 years in the U.S.?
20
1
No Richard,
no one wants to grab guns and remove gun rights in the way you mean. What we want is responsible gun ownership (like in the past) and reasonable use laws. The NRA and members in Congress have become extreme in their infatuation with gun rights above all other things.
no one wants to grab guns and remove gun rights in the way you mean. What we want is responsible gun ownership (like in the past) and reasonable use laws. The NRA and members in Congress have become extreme in their infatuation with gun rights above all other things.
It really is time to refer to this "trigger trash" for what it really is; white trash' (proprietary eponyms). These cretins believe their Right to their right to shoot, destroy, and lay waste trumps the right of all others to their Right to liberty, peace, and respite. It's the contemporary American way; right down to the 'F*#k You' bumper stickers and the vapid HD riders on their sleds who need guns and, or glass packs to compensate. It's disgusting to men and women who understand there is another way, but have too much decency or cowardice to call these degenerates out for what they truly are.
11
Chicago has more than 1700 shootings a year and the NYT finds this to write about. I'm sure NYC has this many "shooting incidents" per year. What is a "shooting incident"? Shooting in the air? Hearing a gunshot 2 miles away? We have this many dead people in Chicago. If you notice the map, most of the "incidents" happen in liberal areas. If you grow up not knowing anything about guns, these things happen when you finally get one at 33. The Colorado incident at Pike was probably a dope head or someone protecting his mary jane crop. I wouldn't walk 10 feet in a California forest. Someone in Seattle or Portland is probably on K2 and about to eat someone's face off.
Also, as a hunter, I know there are people that are in the woods on purpose to mess up someone's hunt. It's a wonder more people aren't shot.
The point is, 1700 incidents is a drop in the bucket if you look at Baltimore, Washington DC, Chicago, NYC, and Detroit. It would have been informative to find out what "incident" means. Many in America have an "incident" driving to Walmart.
Also, as a hunter, I know there are people that are in the woods on purpose to mess up someone's hunt. It's a wonder more people aren't shot.
The point is, 1700 incidents is a drop in the bucket if you look at Baltimore, Washington DC, Chicago, NYC, and Detroit. It would have been informative to find out what "incident" means. Many in America have an "incident" driving to Walmart.
1
You make the mistake of thinking this newspaper is fact-driven, when in reality it is agenda-driven and facts be damned.
America's best idea spoiled by it's worst.
9
1700 citations out of the millions of visits each year to BLM and USFS land? Sounds like another mythical problem like voter fraud.
Over the decades I have spent weeks at a time on public lands and never had an incident with shooters. This is hype
Over the decades I have spent weeks at a time on public lands and never had an incident with shooters. This is hype
Yeah, that dead grandpa whose grand kids watched him die is just hype.
2
So, is there s difference in shooters in National Parks destroying ancient petroglyphs and ISIS destroying historic statues in Iraq?
16
“Shooters are getting frustrated and upset,” Mr. Pedersen said. “What gives the B.L.M. the right to go down and shut it down on a whim?”
On a whim? A man dies, ancient petroglyphs are damaged, fires are started and trash is strewn about. That's on a whim?
On a whim? A man dies, ancient petroglyphs are damaged, fires are started and trash is strewn about. That's on a whim?
19
I have been to BLM lands and have seen irresponsible use of the lands by every human activity imaginable. I watched once as a photographer walked across moss/lichen laden rocks so she could get the perfect shot, while I was sitting there thinking how long it probably took those organisms to grow (now they are dead). I have seen the results of campers burning their trash so they don't need to carry it out (cans, plastic, etc). I have seen mountain bikers tear up the lands everywhere indiscriminately (a lot of those guys are real snobby jerks). So if you are going to ban guns from these places, you can make a case for banning all human activity because it all has a impact.
Think about that the next time you are on your next hike and leave a pile of toilet paper for me to step in while I am hiking with my gun.
Think about that the next time you are on your next hike and leave a pile of toilet paper for me to step in while I am hiking with my gun.
3
This country suffers from a plague of guns. This is just one small aspect of it.
12
This is why Americans cannot have nice things.
6
A bit ago, in the catskills hiking, we were confronted with both the noise from guns and target practice as well as the GARBAGE called spent-shells all over the ground in the forest. Although I do not like the guns, nor the noise, i cannot TOLERATE the litter. For the sake of our environment, please pick up your spent shells folks.
6
"For the sake of our environment, please pick up your spent shells folks."
Shells are made from materials that come from the "environment". Leaving them on the ground is simply returning them to where they came from originally.
Shells are made from materials that come from the "environment". Leaving them on the ground is simply returning them to where they came from originally.
I agree that sometimes gun use on public lands can be out of control, but I spend a LOT of time on public lands and have never felt in danger. The article makes it sound as though every corner of public land is overrun with gun freaks, and that's simply not the case.
Also, it's disappointing that the Times chose Radishgirl's comment as one of their picks. To me, the idea of banning shooting on public lands only further exemplifies the rural/urban disconnect and shows a misunderstanding of what public lands are.
Also, it's disappointing that the Times chose Radishgirl's comment as one of their picks. To me, the idea of banning shooting on public lands only further exemplifies the rural/urban disconnect and shows a misunderstanding of what public lands are.
I agree that sometimes gun use on public lands can be out of control, but I spend a LOT of time on public lands and have never felt in danger. The article makes it sound as though every corner of public land is overrun with gun freaks, and that's simply not the case.
==================
Based on my own extensive experience on public land, I completely agree. This article is really hype
==================
Based on my own extensive experience on public land, I completely agree. This article is really hype
No, banning shooting on public lands represents a perfectly clear understanding of what public lands are, namely environments that should be governed with public safety as the highest priority. Banning shooting on public lands is one of the most obvious, sensible, practical, low-risk, high-benefit approaches available. On the other hand, allowing shooting on public lands endangers the public and leads to nothing but destruction, injury and death. No misunderstanding here at all.
If you fire a rifle in an area where you do not know the terrain or activities in front of you for the next two miles, you shouldn't fire. A 22 can fly a mile and a half on the straight away, shoot from a hill and it will go further. Higher caliber weapons can go even further with wind, earth's rotation come into the calculation. So know where you are shooting, or use a back stop ( shoot into a hill) or across a clearing that your bullet can't cross but you have scanned safe with your sight.
Perhaps GPS units could be tagged with no shoot zones near campsites and trails. As for garbage, it is not just the shooters who leave trash. Carry out what you carry in is the responsible way to enjoy the wild.
Perhaps GPS units could be tagged with no shoot zones near campsites and trails. As for garbage, it is not just the shooters who leave trash. Carry out what you carry in is the responsible way to enjoy the wild.
6
What do you expect, when people all run out an buy millions of rounds of ammunition because "Obama's gonna take away your gun rights by puttin' a limit on ammo"?
But . . . there are many comments here that blame the gun nuts for a myriad of our problems; some may be legitimate, some not. Under our current laws they have a right to own and discharge firearms WHERE PERMITTED. If there is to be a limitation placed upon that right, you have to make certain they have a place to engage in that behavior - crazy as it may seem to you. Only if you group them together and make them responsible for their own areas will they come to see the problems they create.
But . . . there are many comments here that blame the gun nuts for a myriad of our problems; some may be legitimate, some not. Under our current laws they have a right to own and discharge firearms WHERE PERMITTED. If there is to be a limitation placed upon that right, you have to make certain they have a place to engage in that behavior - crazy as it may seem to you. Only if you group them together and make them responsible for their own areas will they come to see the problems they create.
6
You don't have to go to a national forest to know we share this country with pigs. Just look at the tracks in any NYC Subway station.
2
It's true that people have been hunting & shooting for decades, but other things have changed. For example, there are more of us, hikers & shooters both. There are cultural changes too. The harder it becomes to get away from other people (& from their noise & trash), the more hikers & campers want to do so, and they are increasingly willing to make it an issue. On the gun users side, the cultural shift has been more dramatic. The NRA, which actually used to promote safety & responsibility, has figured out that it can sell more guns by promoting paranoia & irresponsibility. Lawmakers have jumped on board, responding to every gun tragedy with laws to make guns more ubiquitous & gun owners less responsible. This, of course, creates the cultural division that it pretends to respond to. Non-gun owners increasingly see gun-owners as lunatics, and more, though not most, gun-owners act like lunatics, openly carrying guns & using them casually just to make a perverse statement about their right to do so.
There doesn't seem to be any hope of having a more adult conversation. Maybe the world has just changed, and there are too many of us. Living in the city, I accept that there are a lot of things I can't do because it would disturb my neighbors (and none of those things would actually kill them). Maybe the country is becoming more like city. I don't view this as a good thing, but we have to live in the world we have.
There doesn't seem to be any hope of having a more adult conversation. Maybe the world has just changed, and there are too many of us. Living in the city, I accept that there are a lot of things I can't do because it would disturb my neighbors (and none of those things would actually kill them). Maybe the country is becoming more like city. I don't view this as a good thing, but we have to live in the world we have.
3
I am a knuckle dragging gun nut and whatever other insult one may produce. Having said that, the article has many valid points. All too many shooters have no idea what they are doing. Any shooter must know where the bullet is going and what it will hit if the intended target is missed. Firing weapons where hikers or anyone else is down range is just stupid. During hunting seasons it is very dangerous for my kids to play outside because of hunters. And yes, target shooters do leave garbage strewn about. Humans are generally a hugely irresponsible specie. I am not sure how to solve the stupid gun problem but if someone can come up with a solution then perhaps they will apply it as well to the irresponsible people that consistently try to kill me with their cars.
3
Just look at the bed of Mr. Joseph's truck in the photo, trash. It kind of says it all.
2
Colorado, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona may consider limiting gun usage on public land when tourism plummets in these states within a few more years. It will only take a few more well-publicized killings before the rest of the country and the world decides it's just not worth it to visit these once beautiful, peaceful parks.
6
You are apparently unaware that Forest service or BLM land is not the same as parks. No shooting is ever allowed in parks—state or national.
I like to target shoot. I like hiking and hearing only nature. The two should be separated.
I like to target shoot. I like hiking and hearing only nature. The two should be separated.
Put shooters in the same category as ATV-riders, all of whom seem unaware of, or unfazed by, the noise and destruction they incur on what should remain the natural landscape.
11
and ski resorts, mountain bikers, dog walkers and all other destroyers of wildlife and natural places.
The idea of ripping up wildlife habitat just for fun is crazy. I met a guy from Arizona, a doctor actually, whose favorite way to blow off steam was to tear around the desert on an ATV and shoot coyotes with his Uzi.
11
Your such a liar.
Typical gun owners. They care nothing about what or whom they harm. They believe their "rights" are paramount, and that no one else's rights matter. Why on earth would shooting be allowed in national forests, where people are also hiking and camping? Let them shoot up their own land.
25
Even if they're on their own land, bullets travel. Only a proper gun range can prevent bullets from straying.
Typical closed minded Liberal lumping ALL gun owners into the same category as long as it promotes their demonization of all gun owners. It's idiotic myopia like yours that fills the membership roles of the NRA.
Typical closed minded liberal attaching the actions of the idiotic few to the many.
I am so sick of gun owners demanding their right to bear arms and to shoot whenever and wherever they want. What about the right of Mr. Martin and the many others, including me, who like to hike in our national parks? Do we not have any rights at all? Mr. Martin's homicide is tragic and shows, once again, that guns matter more in this country than people.
30
Dear Mallory,
There is no recreational shooting in our national parks. your comment is a great example of the problem. It's in your imagination fueled by hate and fear.
There is no recreational shooting in our national parks. your comment is a great example of the problem. It's in your imagination fueled by hate and fear.
Shooting is illegal in national parks, but not in National Forest (USFS) or Bureau of Land Management (BLM) land. But of course, our public lands are mostly USFS and BLM, not national parks.
Please tell me where hiking is mentioned in the Constitution?
So.... Open a fun place they can come and shoot and keep it contained.
6
What that map shows is an unconstitutional Federal land grab. And what kind of person "hikes" into an area where people are lawfully shooting? Deaf?
3
What kind of gun owner goes shooting in a place where people are hiking? Stupid?
You might ask yourself what kind of a person shoots in an area where people are legally hiking?
"what kind of person "hikes" into an area where people are lawfully shooting? "
Ummm- people who err on the side of thinking the people firing the firearms are responsible, safety-conscious shooters?
Ummm- people who err on the side of thinking the people firing the firearms are responsible, safety-conscious shooters?
1
A wonderful man, a father and grandfather, was sitting at his own dining room table near Essex, VT a few years ago when he was struck by a bullet in the head from a neighbor's rifle who was just doing a little shooting next door in his improvised target range. We are no longer safe from guns anywhere in this country.
32
A serial rapist was raping his ninth victim in Virginia Beach/Tidewater after stabbing her with a knife. A legally armed citizen with a concealed carry permit legally shot the rapist to stop the attack on the woman. Rapists are no longer safe from guns anywhere in this country.
It goes both ways, Grandpa.
It goes both ways, Grandpa.
Oh, for the days when you instructed on Bear safety in National Parks. Now, in today's guns gone wild culture, you best dress in full metal jacket for a walk through the forest --- what a country this is becoming.
4
“Shooters are getting frustrated and upset,” Mr. Pedersen said. “What gives the B.L.M. the right to go down and shut it down on a whim?”
Actually lawmakers have the "right", and more importantly the responsibility, to write rules and regulations of all sorts. It makes perfect sense to create regulations that limit gun use and gun ownership in the interests of public safety.
Not only that, but such regulation is necessary in 21st century America. A good example would be a law prohibiting transport of firearms outside the home for any reason.
Lawmakers unfortunately see their responsibilities very differently. They think guns are good, despite all the gun-related danger, destruction, injury and death.
Actually lawmakers have the "right", and more importantly the responsibility, to write rules and regulations of all sorts. It makes perfect sense to create regulations that limit gun use and gun ownership in the interests of public safety.
Not only that, but such regulation is necessary in 21st century America. A good example would be a law prohibiting transport of firearms outside the home for any reason.
Lawmakers unfortunately see their responsibilities very differently. They think guns are good, despite all the gun-related danger, destruction, injury and death.
10
Even libertarians should know that rights only extend so far. If you're endangering the lives of others, well, that's just a little too far. Backpackers and hikers don't accidentally kills others.....
13
After visiting last weekend's gun show in Denver Mart in Denver, I am more worried of gun owners in America than those ISIS folks. People buying hundreds of rounds of bullets and Uzis etc are not buying for them for hunting or self defense.
29
Your stupid, what are they buying them for then? The thousands of murders a year Denver has? Oh wait they don't, gun free Chicago does.
"are not buying for them for hunting or self defense."
Really? you interviewed each and every one of them and they denied they were buying them for hunting or self-defense? Or, more realistically, are you finding it easier to jump on the anti-gun bandwagon by puking forth unsupported nonsense to further your myopic agenda?
Really? you interviewed each and every one of them and they denied they were buying them for hunting or self-defense? Or, more realistically, are you finding it easier to jump on the anti-gun bandwagon by puking forth unsupported nonsense to further your myopic agenda?
As a Canadian, I find this so outrageous and shocking that this irresponsible behaviour is allowed to go on in the United States. For me, and many others I'm certain, it's like living in hillbilly country at the turn of the century when laws were broken at every turn and people simply took the law into their own hands.
This poor Martin family has lost someone special and the NRA dismisses any changes as what....? Too restrictive?
It's insane that the federal and state levels of government kowtows to groups like the NRA and their ilk.
I'm so glad that I live within my Canadian border; can't imagine travelling to the south of my province for fly fishing or hiking and having bullets whizzing past me. America, you should wake up before it's too late.
This poor Martin family has lost someone special and the NRA dismisses any changes as what....? Too restrictive?
It's insane that the federal and state levels of government kowtows to groups like the NRA and their ilk.
I'm so glad that I live within my Canadian border; can't imagine travelling to the south of my province for fly fishing or hiking and having bullets whizzing past me. America, you should wake up before it's too late.
33
At state parks and designated hiking and backpacking areas it illegal to shoot already. Remember common sense isn't common "we heard gunshots when we entered the area" but you decided to camp there anyways? Which means also they weren't on a designated hiking trail. Which exist for thesis very reason.
Can I come live at your house?
@Filman ... this is incorrect. USFS and BLM lands are open to shooting. And one can be hiking in the forest and not hear shots until someone starts shooting, and by then, it could be too late. Plenty of backpacking and hiking areas are in designated trails in USFS but are not part of National Parks, where shooting is illegal. So you can be hiking on a designated hiking trail in a national forest and someone can be legally shooting nearby, and you could be hit by a stray bullet. Look up the laws and you'll see why this has become a huge problem. The hikers and shooters aren't separated by anything but the shooters' responsible use of the gun.
1
One more safety issue to consider - guns and oil/gas infrastructure on BLM lands. A few summers ago, BLM took some folks from the San Juan Citizens Alliance on gas well site visit on public lands in Farmington, NM. BLM set up a special camera to view methane gas leaks at an existing gas well. When folks looked through the camera viewer, gas was spewing out of a bullet hole shot in the side of a production wellhead tank. Nearby signs were shot up as well. The trade offs for "target practice" -- lost gas, pollution, destruction of property, safety hazards, and the harassment and death reported in this article -- is too high. When you abuse public lands, you should lose them.
14
The leader from the gun group, Mr. Pederson, who refers to safety concerns as a "whim" says it all about what the leadership in this country has become. No longer do our leaders concern themselves over the public good, too busy they are dividing up the spoils for their own selfish concerns. Freedom my #*%
18
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention statistics:
In 2013 firearms (excluding BB and pellet guns) caused 84,258 nonfatal injuries (26.65 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) and 33,636 deaths (10.6 per 100,000).
There are 319 million people in the U.S., which means about 1 out of every 2,705 people in the U.S. was shot by a firearm in 2013; about 1 out of every 9,484 people in the U.S. was killed by a firearm in 2013.
Extrapolating over a typical lifetime of 74 years and assuming the above trends continue, 1 out of 37 people currently alive in the U.S. will be shot by a firearm during their lifetime; 1 out of every 128 people in the U.S. will be killed by a firearm during their lifetime, most well before they reach 74 years of age (about 1 out 192 will commit suicide with a gun,while 1 out of 384 will be shot to death by somebody else with a gun).
In 2013 firearms (excluding BB and pellet guns) caused 84,258 nonfatal injuries (26.65 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) and 33,636 deaths (10.6 per 100,000).
There are 319 million people in the U.S., which means about 1 out of every 2,705 people in the U.S. was shot by a firearm in 2013; about 1 out of every 9,484 people in the U.S. was killed by a firearm in 2013.
Extrapolating over a typical lifetime of 74 years and assuming the above trends continue, 1 out of 37 people currently alive in the U.S. will be shot by a firearm during their lifetime; 1 out of every 128 people in the U.S. will be killed by a firearm during their lifetime, most well before they reach 74 years of age (about 1 out 192 will commit suicide with a gun,while 1 out of 384 will be shot to death by somebody else with a gun).
9
The math is correct the issue with it is it includes suicides and lawful shootings not just criminal offenses.
What the statistics don't show is that those firearm injuries and deaths are not evenly spread across the country. They are heavily weighted to urban areas with gang and drug violence. So, while "statistically" you may have a 1 in 384 probability of being killed by a gun, realistically those odds are much, much less if you live in a smaller city with less drug and gang violence or an rural area.
I want to hear about all those responsible gun owners standing up to the irresponsible ones and making them tow the line. When I start reading stories about that, y'all can start shooting in national parks as you see fit as long as it is also safely and responsibly.
10
Decades ago the Austin Lounge Lizards wrote the song Saguaro about a gun nut in Maricopa County, Arizona, who would 'duel' with saguaro cactus, '30 feet of succulence challenging his draw', 'saguaros, a menace to the west', that had to be 'hunted down' because they 'wouldn't come to town'. The shooter was fortuitously killed when a fatally wounded saguaro fell and crushed him.
10
I remember reading that story, now that's what I call justice with a little Karma thrown in for good measure.
"Gun groups say they ... have the same rights to use America’s collective backyards as four-wheelers, mountain bikers or backpackers."
Except that unlike guns and four-wheelers (and to some degree even bikes), day hikers, backpackers and photographers do not permanently damage the landscape. Guns and four-wheelers, by their very nature, leave permanent scars on the landscape. Not to mention the potential risk they cause to others: hikers and backpackers are not endangering anyone's lives by their activities, shooters and drivers cannot say the same.
But beyond the damage and the risks, there is a question of whether the Second Amendment even allows unregulated use of guns in forests and parks - even under the absurd interpretation in District of Columbia v. Heller that upended two centuries of jurisprudence. The out of control gun culture will eventually be the end of this country.
Except that unlike guns and four-wheelers (and to some degree even bikes), day hikers, backpackers and photographers do not permanently damage the landscape. Guns and four-wheelers, by their very nature, leave permanent scars on the landscape. Not to mention the potential risk they cause to others: hikers and backpackers are not endangering anyone's lives by their activities, shooters and drivers cannot say the same.
But beyond the damage and the risks, there is a question of whether the Second Amendment even allows unregulated use of guns in forests and parks - even under the absurd interpretation in District of Columbia v. Heller that upended two centuries of jurisprudence. The out of control gun culture will eventually be the end of this country.
23
Nothing, no one is taken seriously any more in this country unless of course the dialogue originates from angry NRA enthusiasts or NRA bought political operatives. The foaming at the mouth inmates have indeed hijacked basic decency and common sense. It is long over due, and high time for the rest of us to get off our duffs and fight against them using the same acerbic tactics and language. Otherwise, the numbers of innocents killed, injured and traumatized will continue to worsen. Wake up people.
10
We live in a nation where, apparently, the right to shoot a gun wherever and whenever is absolute. Gun owners' rights trump everything. Everything. That includes our right to hike or camp, our right to enjoy ancient art and artifacts, our right to not be shot as we go about our daily lives. This insanity will never stop; Newtown and its aftermath proved that to me. Our gutless -- GUTLESS -- politicians will always cave to the threats of the NRA.
28
Biased reporting, biased comments from a paper with an agenda and it's fans. Just more anti-gun garbage from the usual suspects.
2
It's only a matter of time before drones are spoken of as armed or unarmed, what could go wrong?
We all know the 2nd amendment includes drones somewhere, just read deep.
There is no sanctuary in America.
We all know the 2nd amendment includes drones somewhere, just read deep.
There is no sanctuary in America.
5
“Shooters are getting frustrated and upset,” Mr. Pedersen said. “What gives the B.L.M. the right to go down and shut it down on a whim?”
When someone dies the issue becomes more then a "Whim"... BLM needs to put the kibosh on these clowns because they are ALREADY out of hand...
When someone dies the issue becomes more then a "Whim"... BLM needs to put the kibosh on these clowns because they are ALREADY out of hand...
19
slob hunters and slob shooters have always been with us. Perhaps some peer pressure and an education blitz like we did for littering and "accidentally" setting forests on fire would be a place to start.
I also like the idea of range clean-up days. You can have a couple 'range marshals' in orange, put up the red flag, get some sponsor organizations like the Scouts and such and make it a public news event as well. If these clowns do not morph into good neighbors they are likely to find their access to shooting spots cut off. It's on all of us to fix this.
I also like the idea of range clean-up days. You can have a couple 'range marshals' in orange, put up the red flag, get some sponsor organizations like the Scouts and such and make it a public news event as well. If these clowns do not morph into good neighbors they are likely to find their access to shooting spots cut off. It's on all of us to fix this.
4
How about using NRA members cleaning up their own mess, why involve the Boy Scouts?
1
This practice will get outlawed once a bunch of black people, no matter how responsible or well dressed, decide to take it up.
7
My sympathies to the family of Glenn Martin, the camper killed by the stray bullet. He, and his survivors, are not minor details in this debate.
16
After reading a few comments it's clear there is a lot of ignorance about public lands.
1) National parks are not the same as national forests or BLM land. Though it has recently become legal to carry firearms into national parks, it is still illegal to discharge guns in a national park.
2) In many western states much hunting in season is done on public land. For many hunting is a source of healthy food. Banning all shooting on public lands makes no sense.
3) The commenter with the whistle and hunter orange is being wise. The Forest Service people I know, retired and current, wear hunter orange anytime they are out in the woods and even on their own property.
Just as the Forest Service and BLM designate areas for motorized and non-motorized use, they can designate large areas where shooting is permitted, away from delicate petroglyphs, etc. Leave the dead couches and shooter trash and if at some point the shooters get disgusted, that's their problem. Have the local NRA clean up the way the Sierra Club volunteers to clean up trails after inconsiderate hikers.
1) National parks are not the same as national forests or BLM land. Though it has recently become legal to carry firearms into national parks, it is still illegal to discharge guns in a national park.
2) In many western states much hunting in season is done on public land. For many hunting is a source of healthy food. Banning all shooting on public lands makes no sense.
3) The commenter with the whistle and hunter orange is being wise. The Forest Service people I know, retired and current, wear hunter orange anytime they are out in the woods and even on their own property.
Just as the Forest Service and BLM designate areas for motorized and non-motorized use, they can designate large areas where shooting is permitted, away from delicate petroglyphs, etc. Leave the dead couches and shooter trash and if at some point the shooters get disgusted, that's their problem. Have the local NRA clean up the way the Sierra Club volunteers to clean up trails after inconsiderate hikers.
9
Have you ever tried to make the NRA or its members do anything? They carry their weapons so no one can make them do anything. I once asked a man carrying a Glovk in a grocery store to leave because the private property he was on was marked "No Guns." He just ignored me. The grocery manager did a quick calculation and ignored me also. Guns and their owners now rule this country. The rest of us are just targets.
1
If this is public land, there should be no shooting what so ever, unless it is a controlled range or a designated hunting area with appropriate markings. This is just another form of pollution.
9
This is the face of U.S. gun ownership, and as good a reason as any to clamp down on the nutters who can't get enough of it. A culture of destruction, and a complete lack of interest in the welfare of humans, animals, plants, or artifacts. This is no better than Da'esh destroying the people, landscape, and antiquities of Iraq. It's the very same mentality.
10
This is emblematic of a larger problem: the 'rules don't apply to me' crowd. The more crowded this country becomes, the more people there are who break the rules, whether those rules are leash laws for dogs or shooting in no-shooting zones. And I don't see how these attitudes will change.
I have hiked the backcountry in WA state for over 25 years and have frequently heard the sound of gunfire. There are even bullet holes in the the doors of the toilets at trailheads!
I have hiked the backcountry in WA state for over 25 years and have frequently heard the sound of gunfire. There are even bullet holes in the the doors of the toilets at trailheads!
3
It is definitely more selfishness and lack of civility. We will create a more restrictive society than if we could just handle the freedom we have better.
Gun owners are just like none gun owners, they drink, do drugs, have hormones racing through their bodies, have stress at home and at work and need an outlet for their mental stress. The only real difference between them and the fly fisherman, the weekend hiker and the family going camping is they are going into the woods carrying deadly force.
There is absolutely nothing in the 2nd amendment that creates a right for recreational gun use.
There is absolutely nothing in the 2nd amendment that creates a right for recreational gun use.
20
I too have noticed an increase in this "target" shooting ... I think much (some) of it is because we restrict hunting in many other areas.
Unfortunately, there needs to be defined areas and times for this activity .. the danger to people is real and the danger to the environment is real.
And don't think hiking and camping has no costs -- Most of the damage I see is from activities not related to hunting/ shooting.
Unfortunately, there needs to be defined areas and times for this activity .. the danger to people is real and the danger to the environment is real.
And don't think hiking and camping has no costs -- Most of the damage I see is from activities not related to hunting/ shooting.
1
"And don't think hiking and camping has no costs -- Most of the damage I see is from activities not related to hunting/ shooting."
________
I haven' heard of too many people dying simply from making Smores ...
________
I haven' heard of too many people dying simply from making Smores ...
2
So, even in our quest for solitude on publicly owned land, the gun fetishists, the gun industry and it's foot soldiers in the NRA, are making it deadly and enjoying unspoiled nature, a pleasure of the past!
I will never understand the fascination with guns!
I will never understand the fascination with guns!
2
For those of us who aren't humor anemic (irony-deficient), those petroglyphs themselves were little more than paleolithic taggers spreading their graffiti around. Yeah, shooters should be picking up after themselves, and people shouldn't be leaving their cigarette butts and diapers on beaches and in parking lots the world over. Humans are funny that way. We've been crapping on the planet forever, and liberals whine about it every chance they get, but, as in everything looked at from a socialist point of view, some graffiti good, some grafitti bad; primitive culture good, advanced culture bad. Class dismissed.
One of the more unenlightened comments I've read today.
Shooters, like anyone using the land have the responsibility to clean up after themselves and to conduct their activities with a safety first perspective. The shooting community needs to educate and shame their own to do not operate this way - again, just like any other group engaging in a particular activity.
2
Why is it that gun owners (and supportive politicians, and the "Supreme" Court) think that their "right" to shoot firearms always trumps the rights of all other citizens to live life free of fear of being shot, and the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
******A Connecticut physician
******A Connecticut physician
10
So there really is no place left in this country where we can go without the concern of being randomly shot. This is truly a depressing realization.
11
Native Americans left art work and sustainable forests that survived for centuries.
Current Americans leave shot up trees, cut up roads, empty beer cans and dead campers. They call it "freedom." Living in the American West, I call it for what it is: just plain nuts.
Current Americans leave shot up trees, cut up roads, empty beer cans and dead campers. They call it "freedom." Living in the American West, I call it for what it is: just plain nuts.
13
Guns, guns, guns randomly shot in an unrestricted area ... what could possibly go wrong? Gun owners tote their "right" to have, and possibly use, a lethal weapon nearly anywhere they want. No one else has rights, except, of course, them. If there's any indication that the gun culture is putting us all more at risk, one only need to ask one of these people take responsibility for their actions. Good luck.
Recently, my friend's wife was walking from her car to her front door when a "stray" bullet hit beside her front door, lodging itself in the wall. Police said it had enough velocity to have killed her. The police are still searching for the actual shooter. They have it narrowed down to three persons, all of whom say they weren't shooting that day, despite witnesses who saw them in the area with guns.
The attitude reported in this story shows that responsible gun owners are fewer than we think. Responsibility is the key ... and gun owners should know what they do is a danger to all those within a few miles of them, yet they advocate for their right to put others at risk, intentionally or otherwise. There is no such "right" to do that ... and the law should be both clear and decisive about that.
At the very least, gun users should be required to have a permit, show liability insurance, and be restricted to a designated safe shooting area. That's what a responsible gun owner would do.
Recently, my friend's wife was walking from her car to her front door when a "stray" bullet hit beside her front door, lodging itself in the wall. Police said it had enough velocity to have killed her. The police are still searching for the actual shooter. They have it narrowed down to three persons, all of whom say they weren't shooting that day, despite witnesses who saw them in the area with guns.
The attitude reported in this story shows that responsible gun owners are fewer than we think. Responsibility is the key ... and gun owners should know what they do is a danger to all those within a few miles of them, yet they advocate for their right to put others at risk, intentionally or otherwise. There is no such "right" to do that ... and the law should be both clear and decisive about that.
At the very least, gun users should be required to have a permit, show liability insurance, and be restricted to a designated safe shooting area. That's what a responsible gun owner would do.
9
I lived in some pretty rural areas and this kind of gun use was reserved for garbage dumps. Improvised shooting range's eventually attract dangerous fools. I have no problem with firearms on public lands but not for vandalism and endangering peoples lives.
While I acknowledge others' 2nd Amendment rights, it all comes down to this: "Your rights end where my nose begins." In other words, once your exercising of rights impinges on my right to enjoy mine, your rights become subordinate. It would be the same if I wanted to hike in a shooting range and asked everyone to cease fire. Public lands are meant to be enjoyed by all. When one group's enjoyment restricts others, then we have a problem.
344
Bull. Once your exercising your rights impinges on my right to enjoy mine, your rights become subordinate. Goes both ways, even though you don't want it to.
Thank you. You are one of the reasons I am proud to call Vermont my home. I've found that most Vermonters are very sensible and considerate, it's a shame that can't be said about so many other parts of the country.
1
The gun nuts have second amendment rights only because the right wing nuts on the supreme court intentionally misread the second amendment. Well regulated militia and years of precedent were ignored to foster a right wing ideology. Better vote democratic in 2016 or the court will become worse and worse.
3
The power to intimidate and kill with weapons runs deep in our national psyche.
Our armed forces also randomly crash around the world destroying countries, playing with their toys, and reeking mayhem to no particular end. It really is time for America to grow beyond its extended childhood.
Our armed forces also randomly crash around the world destroying countries, playing with their toys, and reeking mayhem to no particular end. It really is time for America to grow beyond its extended childhood.
5
That's an interesting statement. You do know, don't you, that the armed forces go where they're ordered to go, and do what they are ordered to do? I would think the sensible thing to do here is, instead of taking the rights of millions of responsible shooters away, due to the irresponsible behavior of some in isolated pockets of the nation, that instead we should examine the leadership? I've been a responsible firearm owner my entire life, and served in the army for eight of those years. I've never pointed a firearm at another human being, much less shot anyone. The only people I know who have, are a few older gentlemen who served in Vietnam or other theaters of engagement. I do agree we intrude in other country's politics excessively, but blanket statements like yours do not apply to the issues brought up by this article.
1
Our national parks are a treasure. Having just returned from Glacier National Park (which is on fire), it is hard to imagine that even Teddy Roosevelt (the Rough Rider Republican) would condone turning our shared, protected lands into freewheeling target ranges; the land he so loved and sought to protect for the use of all. The thought that it's someone's right to destroy, shoot-up trees, rocks, and garbage for fun on our shared property is absurd.I don't see it as any different that walking down my urban street with your high powered rifle and shooting into buildings. You have to be in a state of cognitive dissonance to equate the right to hike, camp, explore, backpack, or even picnic with shooting high powered rifles and automatic weapons at will in our shared wilderness.We need a national law restricting where and how firearms can be used in our shared backyard.Period.
317
Teddy was a "Progressive".
And so much for sharing.
And so much for sharing.
There is confusion among commentators regarding the difference between National Parks and public lands. Fortunately, national parks are off limits for hunting and shooting sprees. The vast majority of public land is basically wilderness where skeet or target shooting is appropriate, but I agree it should only be in designated safe areas and that---just like hikers, bikers, etc.---the shooters should leave only tracks.
Clean up your own back yard first, and please dont come back.
"Hiking groups and conservationists say that policies that broadly allow shooting and a scarcity of enforcement officers have turned many national forests and millions of Western acres run by the Bureau of Land Management into free-fire zones. People complain about finding shot-up couches and cars deep in forests, or of being pinned down by gunfire where a hiking or biking trail crosses a makeshift target range."
Is this really surprising when the federal government owns roughly 635-640 million acres, 28% of the 2.27 billion acres of land in the United States? Is it really surprising when they own 47% of western states? Properly managing this amount of acreage is near impossible and appeasing all of the politicians and special interest groups throughout the country who want a say in how it's used will never happen. It's exactly why I hate public lands and want the government to own only a small amount. Everything else should be sold off and taxed. We don't hear about these conflicts on private lands because multiple people and interests aren't involved. What the landowner says goes. The NY Times and author of this article can bash gun owners and their weapons all they want. It's something that their liberal audience loves and the rest of us have gotten used to. At the end of the day though government owning excessive amounts of land and not managing them is the front and center of the problem and needs to be addressed.
http://fas.org:8080/sgp/crs/misc/R42346.pdf
Is this really surprising when the federal government owns roughly 635-640 million acres, 28% of the 2.27 billion acres of land in the United States? Is it really surprising when they own 47% of western states? Properly managing this amount of acreage is near impossible and appeasing all of the politicians and special interest groups throughout the country who want a say in how it's used will never happen. It's exactly why I hate public lands and want the government to own only a small amount. Everything else should be sold off and taxed. We don't hear about these conflicts on private lands because multiple people and interests aren't involved. What the landowner says goes. The NY Times and author of this article can bash gun owners and their weapons all they want. It's something that their liberal audience loves and the rest of us have gotten used to. At the end of the day though government owning excessive amounts of land and not managing them is the front and center of the problem and needs to be addressed.
http://fas.org:8080/sgp/crs/misc/R42346.pdf
6
Thank you sir. The Constitution clearly mandates what the government should and should not own/control. In my humble opinion, problems start with leadership, or the lack thereof. When citizens view the flouting of the law on a daily basis, by their own government, what message does that send?
Yes, it's callous people doing the shooting, destroying ancient lands, leaving a mess, and endangering others. They use lethal weapons, which deserve more oversight than other activities. To heck with glorifying the Second Amendment and its supporters who think it entitles them to do whatever they want, wherever they want, and whine when they can't. It's all part of the American way of life that, we the people, have created. We indulge. We consume. And we feel entitled to all of it.
4
Recently while walking home from a lake near my home I heard gunfire, a rare occurrence outside of hunting season even in the rural area of New Hampshire where I live. It seemed to be coming from a swamp next to the dirt road I was following, but it wasn't until a half mile later that I came upon the two shooters in a field across the road from one of the few houses in the area, where they were directing pistol and rifle fire at targets set up at the edge of the woods. I had seen them and their family at the lake, visitors from out of state - nice folks, very intelligent and personable. I pointed out to them that although I was walking the road home, when I hiked down to the lake a couple of hours earlier I had "bushwhacked" for a mile or so through the undeveloped forest they were firing into. I hope this made an impression on them; I think it did. It's too easy to assume that tracts of wilderness are empty, and to forget just how far high velocity bullets can travel. The problem is made worse, of course, by groups like the N.R.A. who seem to care far more for political notches carved into their gunstocks than they do for public safety.
16
Your anecdotal comment would have made a salient point, had you not found it irresistible to take a cheap shot at the N.R.A.
Being French and living in France has its advantages sometimes. My country and my government is always trying to find new measures to tax us more. However, even if we complain all the time about this, no guns allowed ! And for once I agree with them.
10
Perhaps it is long past time for the authorities to arrest and charge the "responsible gun owners" whose irresponsible actions kill or injure someone. These incidents are not accidents, these are the result of deliberate acts of violence being perpetrated with guns.
4
The Second Amendment has become the excuse du jour for a new wave of chicanery and boorish behavior. No reasonable interpretation of a "well regulated militia" can describe the new depths we have reached as a nation. Additionally, neither of weapons displayed in the title photograph are sporting weapons, they are weapons whose sole purpose is for killing other humans.
10
Part of the problem is simply our increasing population and thus population density. There are more people in the wilds, both shooters and non-shooters. Thus the likelihood of there being someone within range of a shooter is greater now than in times past. The shooter's right to shoot in any direction anywhere in the wilds must be limited by regulation if it is not going to be self-regulated. And given access to guns by nearly everyone, I'm guessing that there are a significant number of gun owners who don't know how to self-regulate and/or aren't willing, or perhaps able, to be taught to self-regulate.
9
It's pretty simple, the law of the back country simply states, "carry in, carry out." So for every bullet/shell fired the gun owner needs to retrieve all materials fired from their weapons, or face stiff penalties for littering. Enforcing existing laws should solve the problem.
By the way, in some parts of the U.S.A. this law even applies to one's excrement.
By the way, in some parts of the U.S.A. this law even applies to one's excrement.
10
Nearly all of the dangerous and obnoxious behavior described is already illegal and offenders should be prosecuted. And those who are behaving responsibly should be left alone.
That said, responsible gun owners should be a part of the solution and through peer pressure, outing bad behavior and cooperation with local law enforcement as appropriate.
Of course we could be more like Switzerland and familiarize everyone in the responsible handling of guns and go back to demanding that people exercise personal responsibility for their actions - which would go a long way toward solving the problem, but I guess that is not as emotionally satisfying as jumping up and down screaming "ban the evil guns"...
That said, responsible gun owners should be a part of the solution and through peer pressure, outing bad behavior and cooperation with local law enforcement as appropriate.
Of course we could be more like Switzerland and familiarize everyone in the responsible handling of guns and go back to demanding that people exercise personal responsibility for their actions - which would go a long way toward solving the problem, but I guess that is not as emotionally satisfying as jumping up and down screaming "ban the evil guns"...
4
Let's be like Switzerland!
Mandatory Militia service! Detailed background checks - including mental health checks for all handgun sales. Complete and detailed registration of all handguns. Presentation of license to purchase ammo, the sales of which are logged and can only be for the firearm covered by the license. Concealed weapons permits valid only for six months after the determination of an actual threat to one's safety. Militia ammo (and increasingly Militia weapons) stored outside the home.
That's Switzerland.
Mandatory Militia service! Detailed background checks - including mental health checks for all handgun sales. Complete and detailed registration of all handguns. Presentation of license to purchase ammo, the sales of which are logged and can only be for the firearm covered by the license. Concealed weapons permits valid only for six months after the determination of an actual threat to one's safety. Militia ammo (and increasingly Militia weapons) stored outside the home.
That's Switzerland.
2
Or, more to the point, jumping up and down and screaming "It's my gun and I can do anything with it that I want."
OK, almost.
Throw in getting rid of our standing army, militarized alphabet intelligence agencies and say ninety percent of the rest of the
fedcops and we might just have a deal
Throw in getting rid of our standing army, militarized alphabet intelligence agencies and say ninety percent of the rest of the
fedcops and we might just have a deal
Responsible recreational shooters are needed to help reform this situation. They have the most to lose and are credible stakeholders. Otherwise, the lawless acts of a few will result in a call for the reduction of privileges for all.
10
This is true. Sportsmen of all stripes have to be more vocal about those in public areas acting more or less like hoodlums.
But it's best not to directly confront these folks, of course. We must go out of our way to report them to authorities in a timely fashion.
That itself goes against my nature, but responsible people have to stand up to this.
But it's best not to directly confront these folks, of course. We must go out of our way to report them to authorities in a timely fashion.
That itself goes against my nature, but responsible people have to stand up to this.
1
People can argue all they want in comment threads about whether shooters, cyclists, ATVers or hikers leave more trash behind, but nothing will be resolved by inflammatory comments. Has anyone done an actual scientific study of whether people involved in certain recreational activities tend to litter more or cause more wildfires?
Remember, your personal encounter with the trash of some hikers or some shooters has essentially zero significance in the context of the big picture.
Remember, your personal encounter with the trash of some hikers or some shooters has essentially zero significance in the context of the big picture.
2
"Responsible gun ownership" is becoming an oxymoron in the West. While gun nuts wave their weapons around in the name of "freedom," they are methodically and systemically stripping the rights of the rest of us. We can no longer hike or camp in peace in national forests without worrying whether we might become the next Glenn Martin. In my neighborhood in the Denver foothills, I often hear target practice. "Hunters" build blinds on their property to shoot elk as they stroll by. I feel like there's no turning back on this insanity. At the very lease, every person who buys a gun should be conscripted into the National Guard -- the closest thing we have to a "well-regulated militia," which for some odd reason is never mentioned by the people claiming the Second Amendment gives them the right to terrorize everyone else.
14
I've been shooting guns since I was 12 years old. Have hunted and fished just as long. I'm a lifetime member of the NRA. I have never acted so irresponsibly with a gun as I've read about some doing in this article. My Dad taught me gun safety and I took a course, nearly completely focused on safety, provided by state to get my first firearms hunting license. I wish I could say what these irresponsible gun owners are doing was correctable by education and training. But it isn't. It's not even a "gun" issue. It's a jerk issue. And all firms of outdoor recreation have these types. Hikers, skiers, campers, hunters, bikers, all of them. Of course a stray bullet us much more dangerous than a discarded beer can or the campers next to you being loud. I've always done my shooting at shooting range and during the hinting season. I didn't even know you could go on public land and shoot outside of a hunting season. This is an issue the NRA and all other groups who enjoy the outdoors need to band together and resolve. Not fight with each other. I guarantee responsible gun owners dispose this as much as anyone. More policing of the areas is a good start. I bet for certain this activity occurs in the same areas every time and is committed by a small substantial of gun enthusiast. I don't tag every hiker as a litter bug I see litter. And every gun owners should not be labeled irresponsible because of the actions of a few.
15
Kevin, I grew up around hunters and know many. I know many who have soured on the NRA and left the organization because it is being run by very dangerous folks. The head of the legal team - Robert Dowlut - was convicted of stealing a handgun as a teen and committing armed robbery. He was later convicted of murdering the mother of his girlfriend, but that conviction was overturned. He served closely with the man who steered the NRA away fromthe organization you likely joined - Harlan Carter. Carter himself at the age of 17, shot and killed a Mexican-American teen in Texas. He, too, was able to get the conviction overturned and like Dowlut, was never re-tried on the charges.
Under the leadership of these men, the NRA has embraced policies that keep our nation's gun-death toll absurdly high. I believe that in your private life, you are a responsible hunter. But if your money goes to support the NRA, you are part of the reason that Dylann Roof got his gun, that there was no mechanism to get the guns away from the shooter in Chattanooga, that Adam Lanza lived in a house filled with firearms, that James Holmes could buy an arsenal. If you support the NRA, you are part of the problem.
Under the leadership of these men, the NRA has embraced policies that keep our nation's gun-death toll absurdly high. I believe that in your private life, you are a responsible hunter. But if your money goes to support the NRA, you are part of the reason that Dylann Roof got his gun, that there was no mechanism to get the guns away from the shooter in Chattanooga, that Adam Lanza lived in a house filled with firearms, that James Holmes could buy an arsenal. If you support the NRA, you are part of the problem.
1
Folks are complaining about the noise disturbing the tranquility of the outdoors. In Britain gun noise suppressors (aka silencers) are easy to acquire and are encouraged for use for one reason to reduce noise in the outdoors. see http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/02/dean-weingarten/englishman-asks...
Here in the US a $200 federal stamp and a long wait time and serious background check is required for each suppressor. Since guns are not going away any time soon why not follow the British model in this instance or at least reduce the wait time (I know the Brits have a lot of other restrictions on guns).
Here in the US a $200 federal stamp and a long wait time and serious background check is required for each suppressor. Since guns are not going away any time soon why not follow the British model in this instance or at least reduce the wait time (I know the Brits have a lot of other restrictions on guns).
3
So what we have here is a relatively small percentage of gun people acting irresponsibly and making life difficult for the rest of us. Kind of like hikers and campers who don't clean up after themselves or maybe like motorcyclists who flaunt loud exhausts, smoking bikes and disregard traffic laws. I see all of those activities daily, but haven't heard any shooting in quite a long time. Nobody wants to ban those activities although they are far more intrusive in terms of quality of life. They aren't constitutionally protected, either.
5
While owning a gun may be constitutionally protected, firing it wherever you wish is not. That is the issue. Please don't confound the two.
1
The only people confounded here are you and those of your ilk who will try any sort of semantics to validate your point. It doesn't work. You know exactly what I mean; don't pretend you don't.
The range of typical ammunition is five miles, meaning someone who is careless about shooting a gun could easily shoot at people and not know it. Since I was a child traveling through the country side with my parents, one typical sight were signs along roads and highways laced by bullet holes. People feeling free by acting like jerks. While it would be prudent to limit target shooting to designated places in national parks, it will be hard to enforce amongst the people who pose the greatest danger to others.
4
Not ture. Maybe a mile if you arced the trajectory to the max. A .50 BMG doesn't even have a 2 mile rage. Facts are important. Bet you're not a shooter.
There is a fundamental divide in America today. Here in Utah, there are people who topple over prehistoric formations and laugh and post their antics on You Tube. There are vigilantes who openly flout the law and ride ATVs, through federal land desecrating native American artifacts while armed. When arrested and convicted, the legislature and the Governor pay for their defense and even try to use taxpayer money to pay for it. And then there are the rest of us, who wish the US government would enforce federal law and control these violent secessionists and the politicians who support them. Our only recourse may soon be to move back to a crowded blue state because we can no longer enjoy the open spaces we moved out here for.
12
This is a problem fueled by the explosive growth of the number of guns in the US. 300 million and counting.
The extreme and loud position of the NRA. No compromises are possible. Their paranoid interpretation of the 2nd amendment trumps all other rights. This is not the NRA of 20 or 30 years ago.
A well funded extreme agenda where personal responsibility has been intentionally misdirected to mean that "I've got mine" and it is your personal responsibility to avoid my bullets.
The extreme and loud position of the NRA. No compromises are possible. Their paranoid interpretation of the 2nd amendment trumps all other rights. This is not the NRA of 20 or 30 years ago.
A well funded extreme agenda where personal responsibility has been intentionally misdirected to mean that "I've got mine" and it is your personal responsibility to avoid my bullets.
8
This is indeed a cultural problem to solve. TV and Hollywood must initiate a campaign that portrays gun toting (not gun owning) people as cowardly, weak, insecure, poorly endowed, un-American bullies. This campaign worked well with smoking and over eating. American media made a real difference against the cultural evils of racism and anti-Semitism; they portrayed racists and anti-Semites as evil degenerates. It has helped.
There is a role here for private businesses. Anyone carrying in a gun into a place of business or on private property should be tried for attempted armed robbery. Your business, your rules. Ditto towns, villages, counties, state highway authorities, schools and colleges. If you welcome guns in your establishment, say so publicly - so the rest of us know.
It is easy for the NRA to own the white house and pressure congress; they cannot fight a grass root movement.
I wouldn't interfere with anyone's desire to own guns, use them for protection, hunting, or use in designated areas. Ditto for every American who wants space to exist in a gun-free zone. Logic? I cannot picnic in the middle of a highway (it interferes with drivers), I cannot bathe in isle 7 of Walmart (it bothers some shoppers). Picnics and bathing are not outlawed, where I can do them are regulated.
Matching the hysteria of the gun toting yahoos and calling Washington to do something are ineffective ways of dealing with this problem.
Kalidan
There is a role here for private businesses. Anyone carrying in a gun into a place of business or on private property should be tried for attempted armed robbery. Your business, your rules. Ditto towns, villages, counties, state highway authorities, schools and colleges. If you welcome guns in your establishment, say so publicly - so the rest of us know.
It is easy for the NRA to own the white house and pressure congress; they cannot fight a grass root movement.
I wouldn't interfere with anyone's desire to own guns, use them for protection, hunting, or use in designated areas. Ditto for every American who wants space to exist in a gun-free zone. Logic? I cannot picnic in the middle of a highway (it interferes with drivers), I cannot bathe in isle 7 of Walmart (it bothers some shoppers). Picnics and bathing are not outlawed, where I can do them are regulated.
Matching the hysteria of the gun toting yahoos and calling Washington to do something are ineffective ways of dealing with this problem.
Kalidan
5
Shooting is often defended as a right equal to any other legal activity on public land. But when I hike I don't make a hundred+ decibels of noise heard for miles in every direction for minutes or hours at a time. Often in our forests you'll hear one shooter firing a continuous volley of hundreds of rounds echoing off the mountainsides. So much for peace and quiet. Is that an equal exercise of rights?
I too have had a stray bullet (let's hope it was unintended) skitter over my head on a trail.
It doesn't feel equal to me at all, but a boorish imposition of a right way out of proportion to its effect on the surroundings.
I too have had a stray bullet (let's hope it was unintended) skitter over my head on a trail.
It doesn't feel equal to me at all, but a boorish imposition of a right way out of proportion to its effect on the surroundings.
8
You must be my neighbor ... hardly a day passes when I don't hear gunfire here in the woods, in the county, next to national forest. I'm sure you've seen the trees shot to pieces, the ground littered with shells ... there is practically no enforcement by the USFS because they're so under-funded. Maybe two officers to patrol hundreds of thousands of acres of federal land ... its' a nightmare. Sometimes hunters are sitting by the side of the road on some of the more rural areas, waiting for deer to walk by. Once a hunter shot a deer as it passed right in front of a school bus full of children near here ... some of the mountain neighborhoods have been successful in implementing shooting bans, but not all ... but most of the shooting is just a lot of "trigger trash" making a lot of "trigger trash." It's sad, but true. Most of the shooters up here in the hills are ignoramuses who have nothing better to do than deface nature. They're just a different breed of vandal.
I too am appalled by the lowlifes who both destroy and trash, and display a wanton disregard for others' safety. There is absolutely NO excuse for this behavior. However, I think we are missing the bigger picture here which is the breakdown of individual responsibility.
I was raised to always consider the other person, to take care of possessions (of which I consider our cherished public lands to be), and to simply be respectful in life. Over the past few decades there has been a marked erosion in our society of these core values. Until we as as people can learn how to quail this dysfunction, we are always going to have these and other crazies no matter what. It simply cannot be banned or legislated away.
I was raised to always consider the other person, to take care of possessions (of which I consider our cherished public lands to be), and to simply be respectful in life. Over the past few decades there has been a marked erosion in our society of these core values. Until we as as people can learn how to quail this dysfunction, we are always going to have these and other crazies no matter what. It simply cannot be banned or legislated away.
3
Mountain biking and rock climbing have surged in popularity. The vast majority of bikers/climbers are responsible land users. But there are definitely the annoying minority that misuse trails, disrespect the land, and put others in danger. Two huge differences: 1) biking and climbing equipment, while potentially dangerous, are not specifically designed for killing. 2) the respective communities (IMBA, Access Fund, etc.) work diligently with land mgmt officials to maintain access and manage impact. It's riders and climbers maintaining and cleaning up the trails and driving a culture of respect and shared use. I doubt those are NRA volunteers cleaning up trigger trash. If the shooters aren't proactively managing their impact and cleaning up their own messes, then they aren't being responsible gun users. Increased use of shared lands means more sharing. Until and unless the gun community takes steps to contain their impact, the BLM and forest service should restrict their access.
4
Sad and unavoidably based on math. The number of guns in our society has increased unrelated to population. As a general rule if you own a gun you own many. Any reasonable talk of new regulation seems to create a run on buying guns by people who think its the slippery slope of the government confiscating all weapons. The problem of our public lands is only one issue. Violent crime has been going up too. Why? Math? The more guns out there, combined with easier access too them, they will inevitably fall in the wrong hands or be used by the wrong people. In cities where there is high levels of gun violence the guns come from out of state, usually from red states.
A recent NPR story about police deaths is a perfect example. States with the highest rates are red and rural. Officers responding to domestic calls where guns are in the house are most vulnerable.
There is a solution but it requires government oversight, gasp! But it does not have to be a win lose proposition, its called compromise, gasp again! Handguns by far are the greatest killers. A federal policy adopted by all the states would create a database to find where the sieves for illegal guns are. Lets assume this federal policy includes registration, background check and some minimum safety training. Whats in it for gun owners, the right to carry your handgun across state lines.
Of course as long as one side fears any government role this will never happen and the math will keep adding up
A recent NPR story about police deaths is a perfect example. States with the highest rates are red and rural. Officers responding to domestic calls where guns are in the house are most vulnerable.
There is a solution but it requires government oversight, gasp! But it does not have to be a win lose proposition, its called compromise, gasp again! Handguns by far are the greatest killers. A federal policy adopted by all the states would create a database to find where the sieves for illegal guns are. Lets assume this federal policy includes registration, background check and some minimum safety training. Whats in it for gun owners, the right to carry your handgun across state lines.
Of course as long as one side fears any government role this will never happen and the math will keep adding up
People who litter are trash, whether they are shooters, campers, and/or hikers.
People who shoot recklessly should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law as should those whose bullets illegally injure someone.
Firearm etiquette and safe practices should be taught in schools, like Driver Ed,
so that needless accidents might be prevented.
Designated areas should be enforced in heavily populated national forests -- e.g. Pike. However, some areas do not require much regulation. On the other side of Colorado, Uncompahgre National Forest, for example, has far fewer visitors and does not require as much regulation.
The NRA would never condone, as one could infer from this column, unsafe shooting practices or leaving 'trigger trash' behind. NRA members realize that
their 2nd A rights are under constant attack by the liberal media and politicians;
they act in a responsible manner so as not to give the gun haters an excuse to take away their 2nd A rights.
In the interest of 'diversity' it would be refreshing if the liberal media would occasionally offer a column to a NRA supporter, but I won't hold my breath waiting for this to happen.
People who shoot recklessly should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law as should those whose bullets illegally injure someone.
Firearm etiquette and safe practices should be taught in schools, like Driver Ed,
so that needless accidents might be prevented.
Designated areas should be enforced in heavily populated national forests -- e.g. Pike. However, some areas do not require much regulation. On the other side of Colorado, Uncompahgre National Forest, for example, has far fewer visitors and does not require as much regulation.
The NRA would never condone, as one could infer from this column, unsafe shooting practices or leaving 'trigger trash' behind. NRA members realize that
their 2nd A rights are under constant attack by the liberal media and politicians;
they act in a responsible manner so as not to give the gun haters an excuse to take away their 2nd A rights.
In the interest of 'diversity' it would be refreshing if the liberal media would occasionally offer a column to a NRA supporter, but I won't hold my breath waiting for this to happen.
2
The NRA would never condone? Bullshit, I hold them completely responsible for this insane, cowboy gun culture that is destroying not only my national forests, but America.
1
I have owned firearms since my father gave me an old (even at the time it was old) 12-gauge single-shot. And I have hunted on public lands - deer and grouse in the forests of northern Minnesota - but only during legally defined seasons and hours of the day. The thought that it would be "fun" to go to a state or national park, campground, or recreational area just to shoot stuff never occurred to me.
The Second Amendment is not by any interpretation license for the behavior documented in this article. The NRA is, as described by another commenter in this thread, engaged in deliberate intimidation, not just of non-gun-owners, but those of us who do as well. That petroglyphs are being deliberately defaced, destroyed and rendered unsafe to visit by those desiring the experience of seeing these treasures is unforgivable. Yet the NRA's laser-like focus is on the spread of guns with barely even lip service being given to responsible ownership and use.
Lastly, the death of the gentleman as described in this article may have been purely unintended, but it was in no way an accident. If you don't know where your bullet is going or what its intended stopping point is, you are beyond irresponsible. Another commenter stated a high-powered bullet can easily travel 1,000 yards. No, sir, it can easily travel 10 times that distance - two miles - with fatal results.
There is no excuse for irresponsibility.
The Second Amendment is not by any interpretation license for the behavior documented in this article. The NRA is, as described by another commenter in this thread, engaged in deliberate intimidation, not just of non-gun-owners, but those of us who do as well. That petroglyphs are being deliberately defaced, destroyed and rendered unsafe to visit by those desiring the experience of seeing these treasures is unforgivable. Yet the NRA's laser-like focus is on the spread of guns with barely even lip service being given to responsible ownership and use.
Lastly, the death of the gentleman as described in this article may have been purely unintended, but it was in no way an accident. If you don't know where your bullet is going or what its intended stopping point is, you are beyond irresponsible. Another commenter stated a high-powered bullet can easily travel 1,000 yards. No, sir, it can easily travel 10 times that distance - two miles - with fatal results.
There is no excuse for irresponsibility.
9
It is worth noting that there are other activities which our society tolerates, even condones, for the benefits that such activities confer, even if they occasionally result in death or injury.
Take, for example, the automobile. No one would argue with the fact that automobiles offer great convenience and enjoyment for drivers who have the freedom to travel wherever and whenever they wish. Unfortunately, cars are also frequently involved in accidents resulting in death and injury. In 2012, for example, approximately 30,800 people were killed in auto accidents, or about 92 average per day. These are acceptable losses, the price our society pays for the convenience and enjoyment of automobiles.
Everyone would agree that air travel is a great convenience (and sometimes enjoyable), as we can travel the world at low cost. In 2014, 1,328 people were killed in commercial aircraft crashes, and 387 U.S. deaths in 2013 in from general aviation accidents. These are acceptable losses, the price our society pays for the convenience and enjoyment of air transportation.
While Glenn Martin's death and other deaths from handguns and rifles are regrettable, these are all acceptable losses, the price our society pays for the convenience and enjoyment of shooting guns. The shootings and deaths are acceptable because, well, we accept them and do nothing to change the outcome. As long as we are willing to accept deaths by guns, we can continue to enjoy the pleasures of shooting.
Take, for example, the automobile. No one would argue with the fact that automobiles offer great convenience and enjoyment for drivers who have the freedom to travel wherever and whenever they wish. Unfortunately, cars are also frequently involved in accidents resulting in death and injury. In 2012, for example, approximately 30,800 people were killed in auto accidents, or about 92 average per day. These are acceptable losses, the price our society pays for the convenience and enjoyment of automobiles.
Everyone would agree that air travel is a great convenience (and sometimes enjoyable), as we can travel the world at low cost. In 2014, 1,328 people were killed in commercial aircraft crashes, and 387 U.S. deaths in 2013 in from general aviation accidents. These are acceptable losses, the price our society pays for the convenience and enjoyment of air transportation.
While Glenn Martin's death and other deaths from handguns and rifles are regrettable, these are all acceptable losses, the price our society pays for the convenience and enjoyment of shooting guns. The shootings and deaths are acceptable because, well, we accept them and do nothing to change the outcome. As long as we are willing to accept deaths by guns, we can continue to enjoy the pleasures of shooting.
1
Tell that to the Martin family. No driving or airplane death is acceptable. Auto companies fought airbags for years until the public demanded change and airplane safety is well regulated endeavor. While fatal accidents do happen the irresponsible parties are held liable including prison time for manslaughter.
1
We are long overdue to REPEAL (yes, repeal) the 2nd Amendment.
18
Well, okay Paul, let's just do that. While we're at it, we should go ahead and repeal the 3rd Amendment. That way, the next time there's there's a military exercise in your area, you'll have the privilege of housing a dozen soldiers in your home. Your wife/partner will get to feed them three times a day, and if one of them looks askance your daughter, you won't have any say, except to complain to the nearest MP station. I think this is justified, because when we used to go on maneuvers, it was a real hardship on us that there was rarely room for us at the transient barracks. In addition to that, we need to repeal the 5th Amendment, because so many important people are just flouting it to get out of trouble-that amendment is more trouble than it's worth. Then there's the ........
Good call, then the 300 million guns in this country would just go away, right?
The 2nd Amendment - like abortion, gay rights and Southern Pride - is used by the Republican Party to make middle and lower class rights believe that they have more in common with Donald Trump than with Michael Brown.
2
The wishes of hikers and campers for peace and quiet are no more important than those who wish to shoot. That said, you shouldn't be hauling trash into the mountains to shoot it, and if you do, you should haul it back out, with as much brass as you can reasonably find. Don't leave your garbage behind, don't shoot across a trail if you know it's there, and certainly don't shoot at anything if you can't see where the bullet is going. There's a right way to have fun with a gun, and then there is what the subjects of this article are doing.
3
Yes, they are more important. The campers and hikers do no harm. The shooters are destructive and dangerous whether they intend to be so or not. I am sick to death of gunners claiming all the rights and none of the responsibilities. Civil society trumps your right to wave your gun at me.
Agreed. Back when I hunted with my family and friends, I usually went first to establish a camp. I ALWAYS had to go through the area with large trash bags to clean up the area before setting up camp. I will say, though, that the same area was used by fishermen and flat-out drunks (who went out there for the sole purpose of getting smashed), so this same issue holds true for many other users of public lands, not just the shooters. The issue of shooters destroying petroglyphs also needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. Just because there's not enough Fish and Game people to patrol regularly is no excuse for shooters to use them as targets. I'm not a member of the NRA, but if they're not addressing these issues strenuously, they are flat out wrong. I appreciate their efforts to preserve our Constitutional rights, but they need to use some common sense.
This is what America really is for most. A backwater and isolated place held together by a brotherhood of guns, outdoorsman and independents.
2
It is outrageous that people have to worry about this. Having lived in New Mexico for a long time, my personal experience is that where one finds target shooters on federal or state lands one also finds alcohol. My guess is that the shooters profiled were drunk or well on their way to being drunk. Funny how the NRA is quiet about alcohol and firearms.
12
The NRA is not 'quiet' about alcohol and firearms, nor drugs and firearms for that matter. Why is it you all have to generalize and also take a dig at the NRA every time a story like this pops up? I would bet a weeks wages that less than 25% of the people who do this type of 'wild west' shooting aren't even members of the NRA.
The NRA is not 'quiet' about alcohol and firearms, nor drugs and firearms for that matter. Why is it you all have to generalize and also take a dig at the NRA every time a story like this pops up? I would bet a week’s wages that less than 25% of the people who do this type of 'wild west' shooting aren't even members of the NRA.
What a wonderful example of a social cost: your private gain--which, having shot before, I still can't articulate--produces very clear negative externalities in the form of noise and risk to non-shooters. Take note, economics professors, for the next edition of your 101 texts...
How about the tax payers and NRA/arms industry come together to subsidize the construction of more (regulated) indoor ranges? Good compromise?
How about the tax payers and NRA/arms industry come together to subsidize the construction of more (regulated) indoor ranges? Good compromise?
10
I own a rifle. I shoot only at rifle ranges where targets are clear and shooting is supervised by strict range masters. If I hunt, I do so only to hunt which usually requires a one or a few shots during the course of a day in areas where hunting is permitted. This is how firearm use should work. The irresponsible behavior of the people described in this article sickens me.
20
Unlimited guns are blocking freedom for the rest of who don't need to strut around bullying fellow citizens to pump our egos. If these gun toting bullies were Muslim this would be called terrorism. The NRA and their gun freak friends are our home grown ISIS.
38
As a gun advocate and avid recreational shooter who uses public land for shooting, a lot of the instances cited here are callous gun owners. Shooting without a back-stop is the most egregious one I've seen consistently cited, though simply a general unawareness of ones environment is another running theme.
Recreational shooting is fun, exciting, and at times even educational, but needs to be treated with the respect it warrants to avoid tragic accidents like Mr. Martin's death. Carve out some land for designated shooting areas that need less policing, that way LEOs can spend more time enforcing those who choose to shoot where they please at the risk of those around them and prevent a lot of senseless harm. There's no reason to bar shooters from using public land to shoot safely, but the sense of power that comes from having a gun shouldn't extend to being able to go anywhere and do anything in a public place.
Recreational shooting is fun, exciting, and at times even educational, but needs to be treated with the respect it warrants to avoid tragic accidents like Mr. Martin's death. Carve out some land for designated shooting areas that need less policing, that way LEOs can spend more time enforcing those who choose to shoot where they please at the risk of those around them and prevent a lot of senseless harm. There's no reason to bar shooters from using public land to shoot safely, but the sense of power that comes from having a gun shouldn't extend to being able to go anywhere and do anything in a public place.
210
As an advocate for reasonable gun regulation, I support your point, especially the last line,"but the sense of power that comes from having a gun shouldn't extend to being able to go anywhere and do anything in a public place." That is, perhaps, the most irritating part of the attitude of many gun owners who parade around with their weapons, regardless of the rights of other citizens. I have no problem with establishing gun ranges on public lands, as long as they are regulated, either by the shooters, or the government. You take your pick, but make sure
that they are regulated and don't intrude on the safe a peaceful use of public lands by others. BTW, I grew up with rifles and shot the NRA course. So, no, I'm not afraid of weapons, in anticipation of the 2A absolutist trolls responding.
that they are regulated and don't intrude on the safe a peaceful use of public lands by others. BTW, I grew up with rifles and shot the NRA course. So, no, I'm not afraid of weapons, in anticipation of the 2A absolutist trolls responding.
3
This is the problem. These folks don't want to go to a designated area. They want to shoot wherever they please. They are typically groups of men that few would feel comfortable confronting... multiple weapons loaded and beers a guzzling. I know this because I encounter shooters often when I am hiking in the mountains of Utah. When they start shooting, there is no option other than to start making noise so that they know I am there (which rarely makes any impact) and hunker down low to the ground and hope I don't get shot. With the sound of bullets ricocheting on the canyon walls, it can be hard to know where they are coming from.
4
I was with you until I read "the sense of power that comes from having a gun ". I find that a truly odd, if not outright disconcerting, statement on your part. I know no gun owners that think that way. The gun is a tool, to be used and respected. It is not a "giver of power" or an ego enhancer.
50
I've seen ancient petroglyphs shot all to pieces in southwest Utah.
37
And Ive cleaned up food wrappers, water bottles and excrement left by hikers. The point being? Arrest all types, whatever their hobby.
In America, the wanton shattering of historical artifacts by gunfire is a sacred constitutional right. In Palmyra in Syria, it's an unforgivable crime against human history and culture.
Go figure. In Syria, at least, the vandals are sober.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
Go figure. In Syria, at least, the vandals are sober.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
1
Really?...people are backpacking into the back country to get away from everything...your rationale and apology that there are a few bad apples has been used before...really there is no reason to bar shooters? The few bad apples as you say are the reason...many others just want to be left alone to pursue nature and quiet...are they the party that is in wrong?
More 9/11 psychosis....I need to be armed to the teeth because the government can't defend me so I have to do it.
More 9/11 psychosis....I need to be armed to the teeth because the government can't defend me so I have to do it.
Why would anyone want to interfere with the widest possible availability of, and use of, guns? Guns are truly the most wonderful thing on earth because they nourish and protect all life, and at the same time they are the source of all beauty and poetry. A gun is love incarnate, and those using guns are the lovers of everything they shoot. Yes, let us all praise the sophistication and delicacy of those wielding the guns who, because of the extreme refinement they have honed through many long hours of dedicated practice shooting things, are the acme of civilization. This is why, as the wise old adage goes, "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."
34
Are you trying to be funny?
Target shooters, 4 wheelers, and dirt bikes have as much right to the National Parks as well as bird watchers and the Sierra Club. Give people the space to do these things and there won't be any problems. This land is your land well it's also my land and I want a place to shoot my guns. Portion it off for that purpose and it's where people will go, leave it proscribed and people will go anywhere they can.
3
Wrong. You don't have the right to exercise your freedom on public land in a way that endangers the rest of us. Obviously.
Not too many deaths reported caused by bird watchers and hikers.
No, "target shooters, 4 wheelers and dirt bikes" DON'T have as much right to National Parks as people engaging in activities that are easier on the land and impose fewer dangers and racket on other users. They tend to destroy the very environment they use, and are physically dangerous to other users. Yes, give these hobbyists their safe place to play. But restrict them from overall parks usage.
What's even worse are the people who eat fast food! There isn't a 1/4 mile of any roadway in this country that doesn't bear the scar of trash from these glutinous slobs. Cups, bags, burger wrappers, ketchup packets, fry boxes... you name it! There should be a deposit on every piece of non-edible material purchased at any take-out restaurant. This is ruining our beautiful country and I'm sick of it.
This deposit requirement will certainly make litterers think twice about buying this food which is loaded with sodium and fats and has contributed as much as any other vice to the detriment to our health.
If we're going to attack those who litter, let's attack them all!!! WAHOOOO!!! I love a concerted effort against all those who are ruining our great country!!
Gun owners, overweight and sloven fast food customers, petro-chemical waste producers, WatchTower pamphlet printers, and gasoline vehicle burners beware!!!!
This deposit requirement will certainly make litterers think twice about buying this food which is loaded with sodium and fats and has contributed as much as any other vice to the detriment to our health.
If we're going to attack those who litter, let's attack them all!!! WAHOOOO!!! I love a concerted effort against all those who are ruining our great country!!
Gun owners, overweight and sloven fast food customers, petro-chemical waste producers, WatchTower pamphlet printers, and gasoline vehicle burners beware!!!!
6
Yeah, I've seen the headlines, ""Family of four killed by a mis-aimed hamburger."
I am a road bike rider and can say that you have exaggerated litter with no effect but to put focus on what this article was about.
I am in favor of the deposit/fee , on almost all items you mention, idea as it would pay for clean up as there is trash along roadways, though not as you describe. How about a the same deal on bullets/powder/ shells etc to pay for the reckless/inconsiderate shooters that leave shooter garbage on our land(s). Could also go into a fund to compensate victims and families that suffer from the same reckless/inconsiderate shooters. We left out those with malicious intentions. I'd be willing to bet that those that shoot irresponsibility , thinking its fun or funny, also throw trash out their windows on their way to the " common " because its also fun/funny.
I've had things/trash thrown at me while riding by these idiots.
The gun groups continue to support idiots "rights" to shoot almost any weapon anywhere on public lands. Then wonder why the public gets upset when things go wrong.
I am in favor of the deposit/fee , on almost all items you mention, idea as it would pay for clean up as there is trash along roadways, though not as you describe. How about a the same deal on bullets/powder/ shells etc to pay for the reckless/inconsiderate shooters that leave shooter garbage on our land(s). Could also go into a fund to compensate victims and families that suffer from the same reckless/inconsiderate shooters. We left out those with malicious intentions. I'd be willing to bet that those that shoot irresponsibility , thinking its fun or funny, also throw trash out their windows on their way to the " common " because its also fun/funny.
I've had things/trash thrown at me while riding by these idiots.
The gun groups continue to support idiots "rights" to shoot almost any weapon anywhere on public lands. Then wonder why the public gets upset when things go wrong.
Personally, I don't think anyone who hasn't been patriotic enough to serve a tour in the U.S. military should be allowed to own any kind of firearm, let alone use one on American public lands. You know, that well-regulated militia? And serving in the National Guard is just as legitimate in my opinion. How hard is it to serve 6 months of active duty training and then 6 years of one weekend a month and two weeks during the summer? Earn your rights.
27
So, anyone rejected by the armed services shouldn't be allowed to own a gun, whether for recreation or self-protection? You hadn't really thought this through, have you?
Personally, I don't think someone who doesn't understand the basics of our Consitutional Law deserves to post ignorant statements like you just did, but thanks for sharing:
10 U.S. Code § 311 - Militia: composition and classes
US Code
Notes
prev | next
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
The right to keep and to bear arms is PROTECTED by the second amendment, not GRANTED. Not opinion, fact, and SCOTUS happened to agree with that several times (but yes, they DID say Dred Scott was property, and abortion was in the penumbras and emanations of an unstated right to privacy in the same constitution... sometimes they don't get it right).
10 U.S. Code § 311 - Militia: composition and classes
US Code
Notes
prev | next
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
The right to keep and to bear arms is PROTECTED by the second amendment, not GRANTED. Not opinion, fact, and SCOTUS happened to agree with that several times (but yes, they DID say Dred Scott was property, and abortion was in the penumbras and emanations of an unstated right to privacy in the same constitution... sometimes they don't get it right).
1
Wow, I earned my right, it's called the Constitution, and in those days, "well regulated" meant in fine working order, they meant the weapon itself. So, you're 0 for 2.
1
There must be some test that measures emotional maturity. Perhaps if achieving an acceptable score on such a test was a prerequisite for gun ownership and use, then we might have some assurance that the armed population might be restricted to the genuinely responsible, with individuals subject to bouts of infantile rage excluded.
12
There is a simple test that could and should bar people from gun ownership and use: "do you think it is ok to consume alcoholic beverages while out playing with guns?" If the answer is not an unequivocal no, bar the person from ever using a gun. That should weed out quite a few of the wackos with guns currently out there.
1
"....The Forest Service recorded 1,712 shooting incidents across the country last year, up about 10 percent from a decade ago. More than a thousand of those reports ended with a warning or citation, but in some, Forest Service officers did not find the shooters or evidence of a violation after investigating a complaint...."
There are more than 290 million visitors to National Park lands managed by the Forest Service each year. And another approximately 60 million visits to Bureau of Land Management areas. That means that, on average, more than 204.000 visits are recorded before there is a shooting complaint. And that some of those complaints result in nothing.
Furthermore, Mr. Healy neglects to mention whether recreational shooters volunteer to do public lands cleanup.
That said, limiting target shooting to target ranges, both private and public, is clearly a practical solution. Also, to charge fees for the use of designated, managed firearms ranges. Range safety being job number one. On the other hand, gun prohibitionists would likely continue to complain.
There are more than 290 million visitors to National Park lands managed by the Forest Service each year. And another approximately 60 million visits to Bureau of Land Management areas. That means that, on average, more than 204.000 visits are recorded before there is a shooting complaint. And that some of those complaints result in nothing.
Furthermore, Mr. Healy neglects to mention whether recreational shooters volunteer to do public lands cleanup.
That said, limiting target shooting to target ranges, both private and public, is clearly a practical solution. Also, to charge fees for the use of designated, managed firearms ranges. Range safety being job number one. On the other hand, gun prohibitionists would likely continue to complain.
6
Even as a non-shooter and someone who would be irritated if I had to deal with guns or hearing gunshots in the backcountry, I suspect this article is much ado about nothing. The sentences you cite basically tell me that the problem isn't any worse than it was a decade ago as the U.S. population has grown by nearly 10 percent since 2005 and visits to public lands, particularly in the West, have gone up far more in that time frame.
Yes, shooters and other outdoor folk will annoy each other. Occasionally those interactions will become dangerous or even deadly. But I can't see, based on personal experience and the evidence cited in the article, that the problem is worse now than at any time in the last two decades.
Yes, shooters and other outdoor folk will annoy each other. Occasionally those interactions will become dangerous or even deadly. But I can't see, based on personal experience and the evidence cited in the article, that the problem is worse now than at any time in the last two decades.
Living in NYC, you aren't expose to wildland shooters. Maybe if they were shooting up Central Park, you might understand the issues. As a hiker and backpacker, I've had to leave areas with illegal shooting to protect my safety. That shouldn't happen.
Sensible solution. On the other hand, gun activists would likely continue to complain.
There is a difference between responsible gun use and what is described here.
What I don't understand is why the responsible gun owners are not angry at the others? And where is their leadership? Those who say they have been responsibly shooting for decades need to take a leadership role in developing a use plan and an enforcement plan.
Let's step up!
What I don't understand is why the responsible gun owners are not angry at the others? And where is their leadership? Those who say they have been responsibly shooting for decades need to take a leadership role in developing a use plan and an enforcement plan.
Let's step up!
31
There is nothing that angers a shooter more than the occasional irresponsible gun owner. That sais this article is a hit piece by the New York Times that tries to focus on a negligible statistic.
There are 10 times the murders in this country than there are reports of an irresponsible shooter on public lands. Stray bullets on public lands have resulted in a few injuries and only two or three reported deaths over decades. Stray bullets in Chicago fire by criminals in Chicago where guns are banned sometimes kill and wound more in a weekend than stray bullets on public lands do in decades.
I will not speak for the east and the south though the incredible small rate of complaints given the denser populations is a testament to the incredible respect that the citizens have for their firearms.
You have no concept of the wide open spaces of the west. I live in a county 5 times Long Isl. and all NY city combined. There are 40K people surrounded by 100s of miles of high desert in any direction. Everyone owns guns.
95% of the County is owned by the Feds or the State. I am not aware of any accidental shootings on public lands here in my lifetime.
I spent 2 years in NYC with almost daily reports, and a couple even witnessed of drive by shootings killing innocent bystanders in the rougher areas of Brooklyn and Queens where I lived.
So get off your high horse and stop trying to solve local non-existent issues at least until you get your own house in order.
There are 10 times the murders in this country than there are reports of an irresponsible shooter on public lands. Stray bullets on public lands have resulted in a few injuries and only two or three reported deaths over decades. Stray bullets in Chicago fire by criminals in Chicago where guns are banned sometimes kill and wound more in a weekend than stray bullets on public lands do in decades.
I will not speak for the east and the south though the incredible small rate of complaints given the denser populations is a testament to the incredible respect that the citizens have for their firearms.
You have no concept of the wide open spaces of the west. I live in a county 5 times Long Isl. and all NY city combined. There are 40K people surrounded by 100s of miles of high desert in any direction. Everyone owns guns.
95% of the County is owned by the Feds or the State. I am not aware of any accidental shootings on public lands here in my lifetime.
I spent 2 years in NYC with almost daily reports, and a couple even witnessed of drive by shootings killing innocent bystanders in the rougher areas of Brooklyn and Queens where I lived.
So get off your high horse and stop trying to solve local non-existent issues at least until you get your own house in order.
Yes, I don't understand why the millions of responsible gun owners allow themselves to be represented by fanatics.
Leadership? Of what sort? You expect us gun owners who are responsible to go out and demand others be the same? Sorry, that's not my job. I had NRA gun classes when I was a boy, learned well, and have maintained my respect for guns and ammo. Sorry there are many who have no clue, that goes for drivers as well with their 6,000 pound weapons .
Obviously these back country shooters are endangering the lives of all those who seek solitude in our wonderful forests.
But heck, when shooting their high powered guns there they are probably just practicing their skills as members of a 'well organized militia'.
But heck, when shooting their high powered guns there they are probably just practicing their skills as members of a 'well organized militia'.
8
If you can't see where the bullet will land, how can you responsible shoot in an open area?
21
The FBI definition of terrorism includes: "Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:
◾Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;... "
If people are feeling unsafe in our lands, we ought to take actions as we do elsewhere to protect American lives. Why cannot our government protect their citizens right here at home?
◾Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;... "
If people are feeling unsafe in our lands, we ought to take actions as we do elsewhere to protect American lives. Why cannot our government protect their citizens right here at home?
28
Probably for the same reason they couldn't enforce prohibition, or stop people from using their cell phones while driving, or any number of things that humans do that are against the law. You cannot mandate human nature. I will never understand why people can't get this agitated over teenagers driving while texting, or why we pour millions into "the war on drugs" or any number of other issues de jour. Reacting with emotion to a situation that requires clear thinking and common sense is simply a knee-jerk response that will not solve anything.
Some years ago, far out into the woods with a group of family members, we were sitting around an old picnic table in a large clearing overlooking a beautiful lake. The scent of pine needles was in the air & elderly family members were placing food on the table. There were no other people visible that day, when suddenly a cousin, who had been tutored along with myself in responsible behavior & love for the outdoors by dear old uncles, brought out a rifle & casually took aim at something out in the lake. A number of us yelled at him, "Put that down!" He did, but in puzzlement, looking injured in the process.
What had happened to this guy since our boyhoods when we'd sought the beautiful Brook trout in places where we saw no other human being in the time we camped with our uncles? I thought to myself, "If a cousin I'd shared so many dreams with had turned into a dangerous ignoramous, what hope
What had happened to this guy since our boyhoods when we'd sought the beautiful Brook trout in places where we saw no other human being in the time we camped with our uncles? I thought to myself, "If a cousin I'd shared so many dreams with had turned into a dangerous ignoramous, what hope
9
Surely the person who killed Mr Martin should be facing a manslaughter charge - that's what would happen in the UK. To fire a weapon in an area that isn't designated as a range and where campers are isn't an accident.
26
Certainly, if the person could be caught. But in the US we have more wildlands than GB has land. It is impossible to police illegal or dangerous shooters.
"Since Mr. Martin’s death, the Douglas County Sheriff’s Office has asked people who were in the area that day to allow their weapons to be tested, to see if they unknowingly fired the fatal shot."
This is how the Douglas County sheriff investigates a criminally negligent homicide? Whoever fired the shot did so knowingly, and s/he knew, or ought to have known, that the bullet could strike something other than its intended target, such as a man camping with his grandchildren.
This is how the Douglas County sheriff investigates a criminally negligent homicide? Whoever fired the shot did so knowingly, and s/he knew, or ought to have known, that the bullet could strike something other than its intended target, such as a man camping with his grandchildren.
32
If you fire the shot you "own it" every responsible gun owner knows this.
Clowns should be fined and taught to take their trash with them.
Clowns should be fined and taught to take their trash with them.
Leave no trace is certainly relevant, but there is no way to erase the jarring, nerve wracking experience of noise for both hikers and wildlife.
18
Public means public, and all have the right to enjoy it in their own way. That said, no one has the right to infringe on my right, which, in this case is the silence of the wilderness and the cleanliness thereof. So if one owns a gun please have the courtesy to go to a public range, join a gun club, or buy a piece of land upon which you can blast away to your heart's content. Leave my, and so many others, wilderness alone.
455
Ridiculous statement, so public for you means your rules. Did you read what you wrote? I live in the mountains where "tourists" go. They drive I from their enclaves, drive all over the highway, cause wrecks weekly, littler, are loud, leave a mess and we really don't want them here. So, can I claim my needs for the mountains and tell everyone to abide by my rules?
1
I disagree. No one has the right to use public land in a way that endangers others.
3
thank you Richard, i was trying to think how to phrase what i felt and you said exactly what i was thinking. guns, by their nature, are meant for killing things, and i feel like my life is in danger and rights infringed upon if guns are being fired near me without me knowing that the shooting is confined to a known area. nobody wants to take people's guns away here, we just want to enjoy public land without fear of being shot. there are plenty of safe places one can fire their guns, keep 'em out of places where people camp.
3
There should be special area's set up for target shooting for folks who want to do that. Well away from hikers. Everyone should be able to use these lands for pleasure. In the past while hunting I have seen people dressed in white hiking and walking right by me while I was sitting hunting for deer. They had on no orange. Common sense is not found on either side of this issue. Wearing white in the woods during deer season is like putting a target on your back. Not to mention they walked right into my line of fire. I had to leave.
2
If you mistake a person in a white shirt for a deer, then you are part of this problem. You're shooting at colors, with no knowledge of where your round is going. And you're using a high powered rifle, which fires a round that can travel for a mile. Very responsible!
Lipstick- I was struck by the number of "rights" used in our comment. How appropriate. Isn't that the basis of this whole argument? My rights trump your rights? My freedoms are more important than your freedoms? When do we start discussing the responsibility for practicing those rights, responsibilities with accountability and finally when will we use our " free speech" to call out politicians who defund those agencies charged with enforcing accountability? Or then again, maybe "speech is money" and "money is speech" and that's what determines who's rights and freedoms rule?
I agree with you that these folks might have been dumb, but I am not aware of any law saying that you have special rights to the land during hunting season.
Last summer I drove between Kremmling and Parshall, Colorado. There is a state shooting range. There was no one at the range on the way out to my destination. Upon my return, there was one person there.
4
One reason is that you can't take all the garage trash out there and blow it up and then leave it for everyone to see what a responsible citizen you are.These slobs are a detriment to responsible shooters everywhere.
Here's a great use for video Drones.
5
Aren't those drones noisy?
"What gives the B.L.M. the right to go down and shut it down on a whim?”
Oh, I dunno, perhaps the "Management" part of their title.
Oh, I dunno, perhaps the "Management" part of their title.
28
As both an avid hiker and gun owner and shooter I say hikers have a very legitimate gripe. But there is a solution. In Tucson, AZ, shooters were going up to an uninhabited area called Reddington Pass and shooting under uncontrolled conditions and leaving a major mess to boot.
Lying about were cartridge and shell casing, water bottles, food wrappers etc. So Pima County did something about it. They floated a bond issue and built a number of beautifully appointed rifle and handgun ranges including a skeet and trap range.
The key here is that these ranges are well organized under a set of rules and managed by competent range safety officers. Shooters can use these ranges by conforming to the range rules and paying $8.00.
This is a better solution than just the normal demonization of shooters and the NRA that has become a ritual in big urban newspapers and the needs of both hikers and shooters are accommodated.
Lying about were cartridge and shell casing, water bottles, food wrappers etc. So Pima County did something about it. They floated a bond issue and built a number of beautifully appointed rifle and handgun ranges including a skeet and trap range.
The key here is that these ranges are well organized under a set of rules and managed by competent range safety officers. Shooters can use these ranges by conforming to the range rules and paying $8.00.
This is a better solution than just the normal demonization of shooters and the NRA that has become a ritual in big urban newspapers and the needs of both hikers and shooters are accommodated.
13
I agree with you, but many shooters don't want to play in these tightly controlled conditions. They want to enjoy the unspoiled solitude and tranquility of the wilderness up to the moment they start blasting away.
Maricopa County has, or supports, a number of large gun ranges. AZ Game and Fish has a large one. Plus there are a number of private ranges. My experience is that most, knowledgable, responsible and courteous gun owners go to gun ranges. There are some that shoot in public lands, but they aren't the problem. I almost always go to the range. If people complain about gun owners who are unsafe, litter and destroy public lands, they are also not responsible citizens. I'm big time 2nd amendment, if you violate the publics rights in excercising your own, you should be hammered aggressively. There are laws against everything complained about, but very little enforcement. As with everything involving guns, we need enforcement, not more laws.
I know a lot of non-urban conservative native Coloradan military veteran hunters who have just about had it up to here with "recreational shooters." In fact, it seems that it's mostly the urban NRA leaders and urban NRA members who want to call the shots...pardon the pun...in regard to use of weapons on public lands, not the folks who live near them and who have respected them for generations. A majority of "recreational shooters" on public lands in my state are city folks.
I really don't think the United States -- or at least a great swath of it -- could be called a civilized country anymore.
29
I can only imagine if gun owners were allowed to carry in the Louvre. "Hey - isn't that the Mona Lisa - bet I can plug her in the eye."
Why do so many gun owners see something beautiful and want to shoot it. That's an attitude a little boy would have.
Why do so many gun owners see something beautiful and want to shoot it. That's an attitude a little boy would have.
26
That's an attitude a little boy who wasn't raised right would have.
8
Yeah, that is what we would say...continue living in your head.
Or a little girl since there are a great number of armed women in the US.
Why does the government own so much land? The government produces nothing. Privatize everything.
6
I dunno, but it's probably a conspiracy. Because what does government do, aside from creating Social Security trust funds, which the government initiated, and which has kept the poor houses and soup lines out of business with our seniors since about 1930something, and there is highway management, parks and trails management, Medicare, various urban service departments such as fire, police, even sewer and gas lines, the whole infrastructure thing, and transportation such as buses and trains, which as with everywhere else in the world require governments to help sustain and maintain...
But, aside from those things, to answer your question, briefly, yes, they're obviously trying to limit the use and enjoyment of guns. That's their main motivation. Surely.
But, aside from those things, to answer your question, briefly, yes, they're obviously trying to limit the use and enjoyment of guns. That's their main motivation. Surely.
4
'Government' land is really the 'peoples' land. It belongs to all of us. We the people have hired land managers (Forest Service, BLM, Park Service, etc.) to ensure that everyone's appropriate needs and desires are fairly met. Besides recreation, the public lands also 'produce' timber, livestock, minerals, water, and clean air. If the land were privatized, it would no longer be available for multiple uses but only for whatever the private owners wanted it for.
1
We, you and me and everyone else own the public lands. They are managed for many uses including economic benefits. Privatizing them would open them up to short term gain and destruction. These lands preserve who we are culturally as a people we benefit greatly from them.
1
America has become a hard divided nation with civilized people who value life, beauty and the preservation of culture on one side, and on the other, a shoot-'em-up gang of goons who revel in inflammatory political sound bites, an unending lust for war, and the selfish pursuits of an adolescent. For every person enjoying an afternoon in the glories of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, there are many more out exercising their 2nd Amendment Freudian fantasies plugging wildlife and ancient lands with buckshot. Unfortunately, the knuckle draggers have long had Congress in their pocket, and civilized America is reduced to running for cover from these mindless bullies.
Lincoln was right. A house divided against itself cannot stand. It will soon come down to an America that is universally armed, or an America that is totally gun-free. I have no hope whatsoever that this nation will lay down its weapons for the sake of a sane society, but the NRA phrase, “"I'll give you my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands" is a lovely possibility to hope for on both counts.
Lincoln was right. A house divided against itself cannot stand. It will soon come down to an America that is universally armed, or an America that is totally gun-free. I have no hope whatsoever that this nation will lay down its weapons for the sake of a sane society, but the NRA phrase, “"I'll give you my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands" is a lovely possibility to hope for on both counts.
100
This is one of the most coherent statements that I have ever read describing the contrast between the U.S. gun culture and the culture of respect and love for people, history and the environment. Thank you!
America is indeed divided, Dan... it is divided by people who cannot stand views that disagree with their own, habitually disparaging those who hold such opposing views with terms like knuckle-draggers, goons, uncivilized.
It is entirely telling that one side of the gun debate defends their rights without attempting to infringe on the rights of the other side, while that other side insists that the only solution would be the complete denial of the rights of the first. And occasionally even hopes everyone on the other side might die.
It is entirely telling that one side of the gun debate defends their rights without attempting to infringe on the rights of the other side, while that other side insists that the only solution would be the complete denial of the rights of the first. And occasionally even hopes everyone on the other side might die.
Dan,
While I do agree with you that there is a problem here. There are people who enjoy the use of firearms in a safe and eco-friendly way. I think if there were more rules about discharging firearms in the wilderness (which I'm for as an avid backpacker) there should also be an uptick in areas where it is safe and legal to enjoy the use of firearms without the fear of injuring an ambling nature-lover.
While I do agree with you that there is a problem here. There are people who enjoy the use of firearms in a safe and eco-friendly way. I think if there were more rules about discharging firearms in the wilderness (which I'm for as an avid backpacker) there should also be an uptick in areas where it is safe and legal to enjoy the use of firearms without the fear of injuring an ambling nature-lover.
Mr. Pederson, I encourage you to look up the definition of "whim"
9
Mr Pederson's question was either purely stupid or a textbook example of wilful ignorance.
'What gives the B.L.M. the right to go down and shut it down on a whim?'
Well, the land is federal land -- that is, owned by the federal government. The federal agency specifically charged with taking care of that land (or, 'managing' it), is, the Bureau of Land Management, the BLM.
So, the BLM isn't exercising a 'right', it is doing the job it is supposed to do.
Literacy tests for voting are clearly unconstitutional. It appears, however, that they would be a good idea for gun licences.
'What gives the B.L.M. the right to go down and shut it down on a whim?'
Well, the land is federal land -- that is, owned by the federal government. The federal agency specifically charged with taking care of that land (or, 'managing' it), is, the Bureau of Land Management, the BLM.
So, the BLM isn't exercising a 'right', it is doing the job it is supposed to do.
Literacy tests for voting are clearly unconstitutional. It appears, however, that they would be a good idea for gun licences.
I cannot express the disgust I feel for the people who think it is their right to shoot wherever they please in natural surroundings and the sadness I feel that this is happening. I'd rather visualize my feelings of being in nature as described by John Muir, and hope this intolerable situation in our country with the gun crazed, changes.
"Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. As age comes on, one source of enjoyment after another is closed, but Nature's sources never fail." ~John Muir
"Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. As age comes on, one source of enjoyment after another is closed, but Nature's sources never fail." ~John Muir
65
You wouldn't believe the disgust people feel for people like you who trot around the country putting every acre of land you can find off-limits to anyone that doesn't subscribe to your narrow minded views.
No guns in public lands. PERIOD!!!
82
I came home yesterday from our favorite shooting hole, and was just telling a neighbor couple out walking, how rude it was to find hiker's trash left on the trail. You could see where they stopped to eat and rest, then left all their trail snacks and poop paper strewn about. Nobody interviewed me. Oh that's right, I'm not a liberal with a biased agenda to vomit onto everyone else! My bad.
6
Poop paper can't travel a mile and kill someone, Bill. If you can't get your arms around the fundamental difference, you shouldn't be allowed to own a gun.
8
Try Googling "littering AND parks".
2
And the irresponsible hikers were not able to kill you.
2
if you are the epa, u can release more toxic waste down the river than has ever been released on american land due to shooters in 250 years. Put it in perspective, police your shooting areas and move on folks.. The fewer gun ranges available to shooters the more random shooting areas will pop up. People like to shoot.
1
The accidental release of toxic material was done by an EPA contractor, not by the EPA itself. The toxic material was left there by the company that owned the mine for the taxpayers to clean up.
30
First off let's get something straight. The EPA did inadvertently release the toxic waste into the Animus River but they did not create it. The mining company, now long bankrupt, created the waste and stored it in a leaking, inadequate tailings pond. Unlike the mining company EPA is taking responsibility for their actions. It was a tragic mistake but they did not create the situation. On the issue of shooting ranges your idea is great. Controlled, dedicated areas in which people can safely discharge guns is a terrific idea. Uncontrolled, free for all shooting on public lands is a problem. It puts others at deadly risk and damages cultural relics and the environment itself, and allows the irresponsible shooter to trash what are often otherwise pristine places.
1
This is not about "these people" vs. "those people." i.e. Backpackers vs. gun-shooters.
If the public has a right to walk/hike/visit publicly protected land, allowing the discharge of lethal weapons anywhere nearby is just bizarre. Shoot/explode/litter all you want on your own private property, but the state has a constitutional right--and responsibility--to regulate this activity in parks. Stop the insanity, America!!
If the public has a right to walk/hike/visit publicly protected land, allowing the discharge of lethal weapons anywhere nearby is just bizarre. Shoot/explode/litter all you want on your own private property, but the state has a constitutional right--and responsibility--to regulate this activity in parks. Stop the insanity, America!!
97
The hunting seasons in the national forests in northern Ga. have been extended earlier into the Fall and later into the winter, past January 1st (when they all used to end). I imagine this is because of the strange increase in the populations of feral pigs, bears, and most seriously, deer in recent years. Based on my experience, the national forests north of Atlanta are unsafe to hike in from late September until sometime close to early February. This includes the entire Fall, when the scenery and the weather are at their best. At the same time, the population of Atlanta is nearly quadruple what it was in the mid-'70s, when I first started going hiking in those mountains (which were largely empty then), and the recreational use of those forests is much, much greater than it was. In Ga., hunters' trash is not really the problem; the risk of getting shot is the problem. I won't go in those forests, on foot, for that 6 month period because it just doesn't seem safe. The wild animal population needs to be controlled somehow, granted, but there are a lot of wild, drunk sorts up in those hills with loaded firearms. I've run across a few, personally.
you might want to check your "facts" there Mikey. The shooters were generally there first. What is bizarre is putting hiking and biking trails through active shooting areas. Typical government incompetence.
What facts? All I'm saying is it isn't "these people" vs. "those people." It's the acivity--shooting guns--that the government has a strong responsibilityto regulate! If somebody is "there first" they can do whatever they want, no matter how dangerous to somebody else who might come along and walk into a bullet??
I would like to use sickening, maddening, and a bunch of other negative adjectives after reading this article since those would be the appropriate and obvious choice of words. However, even though it's a no-brainer that the citizens of a developed country should be able to walk in forests/nature without the fear of getting shot, we all know what the NRA and gun-lovers-of-America will say in defense of the "right to bear arms". It's an endless circle.
Mass murders, regular murders, gun-related accidents, piles of deaths in front of the barrel of a gun. What will it finally take to end the abundance of guns in America? I don't know if stories like this improve the chances of gun laws being passed, or further emboldens those involved in gun culture. Of course, the latter theory doesn't make any sense at all, but then again... not much of the gun advocacy going on today does.
Mass murders, regular murders, gun-related accidents, piles of deaths in front of the barrel of a gun. What will it finally take to end the abundance of guns in America? I don't know if stories like this improve the chances of gun laws being passed, or further emboldens those involved in gun culture. Of course, the latter theory doesn't make any sense at all, but then again... not much of the gun advocacy going on today does.
29
Surely you are aware that the firearm homicide rate has dropped by half over the last two decades, a period in which 100 million more guns have entered private hands and we have seen a vast increase in the number of citizens lawfully carrying concealed firearms as the relevant laws have been passed in all 50 states. The very abundance of firearms you decry has accompanied a massive reduction in criminal gun use in murder, assault with a deadly weapon, and so forth. We see more and more widely acknowledged self-defense incidents with firearms (although, as always, the vast majority thereof are brandishing, and go almost entirely unnoted), but you don't want to look at the issue in balance. Just like this story does nothing to assess the percentage of people using firearms on public lands who do so lawfully and respectfully of others. Those who do not are already breaking existing laws. Yet you focus on the one person this story could find who "got shot."
'The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.' - Ronald Reagan.
thats the thing rob, you mention if this will improve chances of gun laws being passed, yet there ARE gun laws in the books, they just need proper enforcement. and there are responsible gun owners as well as there are irresponsible hikers.
Guess the national parks aren't going to be getting my visiting donations. Better get a handle on this before Newton's third law starts to rule in the parks.
6
It is still illegal to discharge a weapon in a national park. National parks are not the same as national forests.
4
Not quite.
It is legal to carry a firearm in Yellowstone Park because Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho are 2nd A friendly; if one is threatened, then one
has the right to use that firearm.
The gentleman who was eaten by a grizzly bear and her cubs last week might have survived had he taken the precautions most Alaskans would when they venture into bear territory.
But you are right about target practice in a National Park. That is forbidden and rightly so.
It is legal to carry a firearm in Yellowstone Park because Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho are 2nd A friendly; if one is threatened, then one
has the right to use that firearm.
The gentleman who was eaten by a grizzly bear and her cubs last week might have survived had he taken the precautions most Alaskans would when they venture into bear territory.
But you are right about target practice in a National Park. That is forbidden and rightly so.
Discharge of a firearm is illegal on any land managed by the National Park Service. The shooting referenced in this article occurs on National Forest and BLM land. Please continue to support the National Parks.
The same people who allow a city like Detroit to crumble into the ground are using environmentalism to try to restrict 2nd amendment civil rights. They're worried about shot gun shells when Liberal pro environmentalist governors like dannel Malloy in ct ok'd spraying fracking waste all over the highways in the winter ruining everyone's cars and seeping into the water table of the state. There's a major increase in liver cancer going on here that may be associated with it. But no, muh juniper trees.
3
Again. New Jersey. Chris Christie-land. You don't deserve an opinion.
Where in the constitution is there are right to shoot guns for recreation?
2
the Second Amendment protects the right to bear arms, not a right to shoot guns irresponsibly and endanger others.
1
The outskirts of Las Vegas are not generally what come to mind when one thinks of public lands, but they are ... and they are a mess. Popular targets for shooters out here are tube televisions, obsolete washers and dryers, and dead refrigerators. The shooters blast them to pieces, and just leave them there for the BLM agents or some other government entity to pick up, along with hundreds and hundreds of spent cartridges and shotgun shells. The drive out to Lovell Canyon has a beautiful view of the canyon and Mt. Charleston from the top of a cliff ... except that there are often a score or more of shooters blasting away at a hillside on the opposite side of the wash. I could take you in my 4x4 out to a lovely box canyon a couple of miles off the main road to Pahrump, but it's too dangerous because of the indiscriminate target shooters' ricochets. Besides, once we arrived, you might be disgusted at the generations, literally generations, of shooter debris that litters the ground to the depth of well over a foot in some places. Go to the range, people; our local government spent a pile of taxpayer money to open a very nice public one for you on Decatur Avenue at the foot of Gass Peak ... or maybe public lands shooters don't like the ranges out here because they prohibit alcohol consumption. There just must be something about guns and liquor to some people...
52
I was nearly nicked by shot while hiking ... in SWITZERLAND! Although I'd take my chances there over our national forests any day. When we went backpacking in the national forests out west, my father, a WWII vet, packed a pistol, not just to fend off the improbable bear but because he knew what kind of drunken yahoos with guns hang out in campgrounds. He had been one of them himself.
5
Beyond the "well-regulated militia" part of the 2nd Amendment that the Supreme Court did not read the Amendment says "keep and bear arms", not fire them indiscriminately. Just as public lands managers have the right to regulate the use of motorized vehicles they should have the right to regulate firing, as opposed to carrying, firearms. There is a difference between carrying a sidearm to protect myself from possible attack by a rabid rabbit or to engage a hidden encampment of North Korean special forces and simply slinging lead where and when the spirit moves me. If we decide it may be reasonable accommodation to set up shooting areas or ranges just as we may do the same for dirt bike enthusiasts using their right to peacefully assemble that is one thing, but the notion that one has the right to fire a weapon on public land whenever and wherever is a grave abuse of the 2nd Amendment. "Keep and bear" does not mean employ in a way that puts others at risk any more than it means I have the right to go into a movie theatre or stadium and begin target practice. The idea that public ownership means private appropriation is acceptable is totally in error. Trash or drunkenness aside there is no Constitutional basis to the argument that I have the right to make use of public land in a way that puts others at risk and destruction of rock paintings, trees, or other elements of public land is vandalism to be punished by fines, imprisonment, and loss of the firearm.
210
Do just a bit of research. The theory that the "well-regulated militia" clause in any way limits the expressed right of "the people" to keep and bear arms started showing up in court cases in the 1940's... 150 years after the Second was authored. You will not find it in case arguments or law prior to that time. As in every other reference in the Bill of Rights, "the people" means just that in the Second. At the time -- and in fact until early in twentieth century -- the militia specifically referred to all able bodied citizens... so how would that concept limit the rights of the people to keep and bear arms?
On your other point, you are completely correct. One does not have the right to put others at risk, through the unsafe use of firearms, ATVs or camp fires. In fact, doing so is ALREADY against the law. That is no justification for banning the lawful use of legal firearms on public lands. Consider the facts. 1700 citations, more than 100 million gun owners. You can certainly state that the citations are but a percentage of those users who actually violated the law, but likewise must admit that a vastly larger number of people lawfully employed firearms on public lands. A microscopic percentage of people drive while intoxicated; we do not ban all people from driving in response.
On your other point, you are completely correct. One does not have the right to put others at risk, through the unsafe use of firearms, ATVs or camp fires. In fact, doing so is ALREADY against the law. That is no justification for banning the lawful use of legal firearms on public lands. Consider the facts. 1700 citations, more than 100 million gun owners. You can certainly state that the citations are but a percentage of those users who actually violated the law, but likewise must admit that a vastly larger number of people lawfully employed firearms on public lands. A microscopic percentage of people drive while intoxicated; we do not ban all people from driving in response.
As someone who is surrounded by public lands, a choice I made on purpose many years ago, so I could use the land to my full advantage for an endless list of activities. One of those many activities is to shoots guns, I could tell you how safe I am or how I clean up after myself, but that is irrelevant. Right?
Just last night I entered public land to gather firewood, on my second trip it was beginning to get dark and the coyotes were out. I brought my young pup with me and allowed him to roam around while I cut trees. A young boy needs to learn, but on the second trip out I brought a gun with me "just in case," He alerted me at one point that something was nearby. So in the truck he went, I stood by and waited to see if the coyote would show himself. No luck, board and with a truck full of logs I unloaded a few clips, hoping to get him used to the sound of gun fire, picked up my casings, and went home. Public lands as they like to say are the land of many uses.
Just last night I entered public land to gather firewood, on my second trip it was beginning to get dark and the coyotes were out. I brought my young pup with me and allowed him to roam around while I cut trees. A young boy needs to learn, but on the second trip out I brought a gun with me "just in case," He alerted me at one point that something was nearby. So in the truck he went, I stood by and waited to see if the coyote would show himself. No luck, board and with a truck full of logs I unloaded a few clips, hoping to get him used to the sound of gun fire, picked up my casings, and went home. Public lands as they like to say are the land of many uses.
11
Safety and consideration for others and the environment are absolutely fundamental when one uses guns. Perhaps the NRA and every responsible gun owner should take time to start demanding that all gun owners meet minimum standards of safety and consideration for other Americans who share the right to use public lands. Only when pressure is brought to bear on irresponsible gun owners will the situation improve. Sadly in our country, too many people have forgotten that their rights may be limited, or at least regulated, when they intrude on and limit the rights of others.
35
"No luck" really says it all.
3
Are coyotes really a threat to your life? Are you so afraid of coyotes you need ot carry a gun?
5
There are an awfully large number of downsides to shooting on public lands, but I have yet to see a single upside. Must we endure this nuisance and danger because a few think it is fun? Build a range, buy land for shooting, or desist, but why must the 2nd amendment always impinge upon my rights?
157
And how exactly are they impinging upon your rights? Nothing they are doing stops you from anything you are doing or diminish amy of your rights. But instead, your comments and the comments of many on your side of this wish to trample on the rights of others.
2
I dislike motorized equipment on public lands (or lakes and oceans) yet I realize others enjoy skidoos, jet-skiis, dirt bikes, power boats, etc. I prefer xc skiing and hiking, kayaking and canoeing. The difference between you and me however is that I am not so undemocratic as you as to want to force those who feel differently than I out of what is rightfully theirs as well : America and its open lands. I share my outdoor enjoyment with theirs. and I respect their wishes as much as my own.
2
What rights, exactly, are you referring to?
2
we know how this will play, given that our current congress has only the 2nd Amendment as its guide and is often without any qualms about considering the Preamble's "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" mandate.
As in most other environments, the biggest danger to man in the wilds is another man with a gun. It's no different than the streets of Chicago.
As in most other environments, the biggest danger to man in the wilds is another man with a gun. It's no different than the streets of Chicago.
38
Ill read and ill tiught. What do you think has secured that "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" that you readily wish to deny others?
The biggest danger is another man with a gun? You are not merely wrong, you are wrong by an order of magnitude. If you don't believe me, use Google to check out the facts.
I will guarantee you that "accidental shooting" is a microscopic danger on public lands. You will note, for example, that Healy was able to find only one story of such a death on public lands.
1
Once again it appears that the only ones with rights are those with guns. Everyone else just needs to get out of their way. These people believe that the Second Amendment surpasses all other rights in today's America.
241
How so? How does what they are doing take any of your rights away? It doesnt, the second amendment does not trample on anyones rights, but it protects everyones rights.
No, actually the 2nd amendment acts as a safe-guard to the First Amendment. You should really appreciate that the Amendment is there because a oppressive government is so much worse that a few weekend warriors in BLM lands.
Corporations are people, too! Corporations have rights. Don't they? Do they have guns? Depends on what religion the corporation believes in, I suppose.
1
"Know your target and what's behind it." It's one of the four inviolable rules of firearm safety. As a formerly avid shooter, I'll say it again: gun owners are their own worst enemy.
From open carry movements antagonizing the citizenry to massive amounts of litter left after shooting in the countryside, gun owners fail to realize it's their own boorish behavior that paints them as untrustworthy in the eyes of the general populace. Other gun owners and shooters are the reason I left the culture.
I have no problem with gun ownership or responsible sport shooting, but so many gun owners continually demonstrate their lack of education, training, and behavior adult enough to be trusted with a weapon that they should not be surprised when they lose their "right". They forfeit their right to a gun when they endanger their fellow citizen and abuse their trust.
I think it may be time to call the NRA and cancel my life membership.
From open carry movements antagonizing the citizenry to massive amounts of litter left after shooting in the countryside, gun owners fail to realize it's their own boorish behavior that paints them as untrustworthy in the eyes of the general populace. Other gun owners and shooters are the reason I left the culture.
I have no problem with gun ownership or responsible sport shooting, but so many gun owners continually demonstrate their lack of education, training, and behavior adult enough to be trusted with a weapon that they should not be surprised when they lose their "right". They forfeit their right to a gun when they endanger their fellow citizen and abuse their trust.
I think it may be time to call the NRA and cancel my life membership.
341
Please do cancel it, if you were a member it must have been an oversight by the membership committee. So many "former" shooters, and former hunters, and former this and that. How convenient that either the NYT attracts so many former men. Of course with so many now being Democrat Trolls I guess a job change is appropriate.
1
Yes, it's time to call and cancel. What's taken so long? Sane people like you know that the NRA has become a threat to civilized society.
2
Then what profits could manufacturers of guns make if the NRA would lose members. Thank goodness defenders of the gun manufacturers understand what business needs to thrive--profits!
I'm an avid backpacker, backcountry skier and (catch and release) fly fisher who resides in NM - spending much time over the past 32 years in the Rockies from NM through Colorado. The increase of guns being fired in the wildernesses out here has "shot up" immensely over the last 10 years. Some of my favorite destinations are off-limits now due to the firing of guns. Most backpackers follow pack-it-in/pack-it-out practices. Most of the "target" shooters do not. They not only create a founded fear for the unarmed, the leave much waste (ammos, garbage, tree carvings, target debris), also noise pollution. And, worst of all, many tend to mix guns and alcohol - creating a real bad situation as one might guess. I'm not sure why the trend has gotten so out-of-hand, but it has reached a crisis point, and glad for this article to point it out.
255
Its the masses of illegal aliens and drug gangs practicing in the deserts-build the Wall!
This has the same solution as every other back country problem: eliminate the roads. When access is easy, people will abuse it. Remove the roads and wide tracks, and only the dedicated hikers will penetrate to any degree.
52
That's a wonderful idea! I'd be interested in combining this with the idea of mandatory public transportation into the national parks. Get rid of the cars and subsequent air and noise pollution, but also make it impossible for anyone to haul in a pickup truck full of arms and ammo.
If Americans aren't shooting and/or killing, they're just not content.
37
Living in New York you must be used to the government running your life. The rest of us want to run our own. An unarmed population has no way of defending itself from Democrats (Liberal Combatants)
Another good reason to stay in city. Even though I was a Boy Scout and grew up in a rural area, I hate camping and know that every year, hunters accidentally die at the hands of other hunters, so I know that target practicing and hiking should not mix. Common Sense says the two should stay away from each other.
Who hears a whistle when he is shooting a Browning Automatic weapon.
Who hears a whistle when he is shooting a Browning Automatic weapon.
17
I feel the opposite: the murder rate in Americas cities keeps escalating and violent crime is on the rampage again- I feel much safer in the countryside where I live with responsible marksmen and hunters-than in the cities with the drug and criminal gangs and illegal aliens running wild everywhere!
1
Having grown up in a rural area where hunting was common, I learned very young that you could not walk safely on your own property - even near the house and barn - during hunting season.
The problem - hunters who shoot wildly, who drink alcohol and shoot, who shoot at anything that moves, who shoot out windows and at powerlines. When they have high powered weapons it's that much more dangerous because the bullets carry far - miles. The truth is - they more often hit one another - or cows - than innocent parties -- but too many of them are reckless and defiant about rules.
The problem - hunters who shoot wildly, who drink alcohol and shoot, who shoot at anything that moves, who shoot out windows and at powerlines. When they have high powered weapons it's that much more dangerous because the bullets carry far - miles. The truth is - they more often hit one another - or cows - than innocent parties -- but too many of them are reckless and defiant about rules.
I'm sure the residents of Detroit, Chicago, Washington DC, and other bullet-ridden Liberal Democratically controlled cities would agree with your assessment.
The hunters I know will bore you for hours talking about how safe and considerate they all are but land owners and farmers have numerous stories about bullets hitting their house, cows shot in the field, the inability to keep glass in the windows of any outbuilding not within sight of the house, etc.
A minister mowing in his own yard was hit in the arm sometime back. The police said the shooter was miles away. If he/she had been closer the bullet would have certainly killed him.
A minister mowing in his own yard was hit in the arm sometime back. The police said the shooter was miles away. If he/she had been closer the bullet would have certainly killed him.
80
And what farm do you live on currently, what farm ranch boards are you on, what 4H events do you attend? You must travel a lot in rural America to have met all the farmers and ranchers there(even though as you say you are bored talking to the backwards inbreds.....) WOW! Yes of course your right, the open spaces in America should only be there for the Elites-those with the correct political views and praying to GAIA! Perhaps we should restrict the open lands to Vegetarians (it will be easier to dispose of human bodily excrement that way-less mess, less pollution).
The only firearms on Public Lands should be that of law enforcement officers.
Not sure how shooting up nature follows the leave no trace guidelines all visitors are encouraged to follow. Also we should mention the lead left behind poisons wildlife.
Not sure how shooting up nature follows the leave no trace guidelines all visitors are encouraged to follow. Also we should mention the lead left behind poisons wildlife.
79
The pounding feet of hikers and the damaging treads of mountain bikers do more ecological damage to the open lands and wildlife habitats than the shooting of firearms on designated spaces .
1
You mean that same lead that is everywhere around us, that is pulled out of the ground? It is a natural substance, even on the Periodic Chart.
That same argument was used for asbestos a couple decades ago. Did you know there are many forms of asbestos in nature?
That same argument was used for asbestos a couple decades ago. Did you know there are many forms of asbestos in nature?
Shot in the food chain of wildlife is not the same as lead in the ground. Do not be disingenuous.
1
Repeal the Second Amendment.
The NRA seems to think that this obsolete law is a get-out-jail-free card to do whatever you want you want, wherever you want, with as many guns as you want.
It is long past the time to get rid of this noxious law and start over with some common sense gun laws. Death, destruction and fear, not freedom, is the result of the Second Amendment.
The NRA seems to think that this obsolete law is a get-out-jail-free card to do whatever you want you want, wherever you want, with as many guns as you want.
It is long past the time to get rid of this noxious law and start over with some common sense gun laws. Death, destruction and fear, not freedom, is the result of the Second Amendment.
72
Repeal abortion....there! The second amendment is in the bill of rights. Abortion is not. Repeal Roe v. wade!
1
The seccond amendment is an explicit call upon Congress to use its Article I Section 8 powers to mandate that militias be uniformly well regulated nationwide. It is deliberately misinterpreted by outright subversives.
4
The Second Amendment is the only thing that keeps guns in the hands of private citizens to protect themselves form the government and other hostile people
1
What is my opinion of this? They can go to a shooting range in their neighborhood. if they want to shoot in the wilderness, get a hunting licence, & go hunting. otherwise keep you guns at home, and leave people who want to enjoy nature and the wilderness in peace. You say its your right to shoot, but, you live in a society with others, i have rights too, its not all about you and what your want.
54
I would prefer you also go hiking in your neighborhood. And swim in your neighborhood as well. I hate it when hikers come up to the catskills and hike through my private land. I also hate when beachgoers come to the ocean and walk over my private beach at high tide. So I hope where you live has open forests and wide sandy beaches next door. Otherwise please hike on your stairwell and swim in your bath tub.
Do you have the right to suppress someone elses rights?
So help me god, I'd like nothing better than to shoot back at these stupid, selfish men. I suppose that makes me no better than them, as we are all twisted and contaminated by our violent culture.
21
How do we stop shooters on private lands? I live in deep country and am assailed by the sounds of gun fire every weekend coming from the forests.
I shout at them, threaten to call the police...and I am laughed at. There is
a shooting range nearby but they don't use it: they'd rather drink and shoot
and trash wherever they think they can get away with it...without supervision.
I shout at them, threaten to call the police...and I am laughed at. There is
a shooting range nearby but they don't use it: they'd rather drink and shoot
and trash wherever they think they can get away with it...without supervision.
As a gun owner, I think that is just you. I never would want to shoot at anyone. People like you worry me.
How many times have we heard the phrase, "responsible gun owners." Shooting up the public lands is not responsible. A high powered rifle round can easily travel 1000 yards. A few years ago in Kansas City, someone fired a pistol into the air on the 4th of July and killed a little girl many blocks away.
The Constitution may give people the right to own firearms, but it doesn't give them the right to indiscriminately use them. No one has the right to turn the public lands into their own personal shooting gallery.
When I was a child of about 10, the neighborhood kids used to go to the park and play softball in one small area. One day, a man was using the park as his personal golf driving range. He was consuming tens of thousands of square yards of public park and posing a danger to anyone else there. We made him stop and he got really mad.
How unbelievably selfish was this guy? He didn't have a gun. We won that dispute. What's a hiker supposed to do when confronted with shooters?
I am convinced that many, if not most, of these gun toters are not motivated by self defence, but motivated by the desire to intimidate. They want power. They want the power to take human life with the ease of pulling a trigger. That's not responsible gun ownership. Guns should not be allowed on the public lands except during strictly defined periods of hunting seasons in strictly defined areas.
People have rights. The right to not get shot when hiking.
The Constitution may give people the right to own firearms, but it doesn't give them the right to indiscriminately use them. No one has the right to turn the public lands into their own personal shooting gallery.
When I was a child of about 10, the neighborhood kids used to go to the park and play softball in one small area. One day, a man was using the park as his personal golf driving range. He was consuming tens of thousands of square yards of public park and posing a danger to anyone else there. We made him stop and he got really mad.
How unbelievably selfish was this guy? He didn't have a gun. We won that dispute. What's a hiker supposed to do when confronted with shooters?
I am convinced that many, if not most, of these gun toters are not motivated by self defence, but motivated by the desire to intimidate. They want power. They want the power to take human life with the ease of pulling a trigger. That's not responsible gun ownership. Guns should not be allowed on the public lands except during strictly defined periods of hunting seasons in strictly defined areas.
People have rights. The right to not get shot when hiking.
957
" The Constitution may give people the right to own firearms " typical liberal utterance. The constitution does not grant a right, it merely acknowledges a right that needs no government to exist. Your idea of responsible should be to never handle, own, operate a gun as you have clearly shown you are scared to death of a ' tool '. Hands off
2
Great post. You cannot hunt with rifles here in Massachusetts because of the extreme velocity of a rifle bullet. You miss anywhere, or (god forbid) shoot at a target silhouetted on a ridge (ie- not backed by hard earth- a mortal sin for any responsible hunter- because a miss means that bullet may travel for a mile) and those bullets will sometimes find a car, barn or more vulnerable target.
I am generally pro-sport shooting and hunting, but you have to respect your fellow man and I love living in a state that thinks critically and meaningfully about these issues (and gun-ownership in general).
I am generally pro-sport shooting and hunting, but you have to respect your fellow man and I love living in a state that thinks critically and meaningfully about these issues (and gun-ownership in general).
3
Goeasyonus,
I have basement full of tools. Very dangerous tools. None of them pose any danger to anyone else but to me.
I am scared to death of my table saw. That thing could cut my hand off in a second. That is precisely why I have never been injured by it. The cavalier attitude you display toward guns is exactly what causes gun accidents.
I can build things with my tools. You can't build anything with a gun. They just kill. Guns don't build nations. Laws build nations.
All rights are determined by our laws. We are a nation of laws. The Constitution is not liberal utterance. Your comment reeks of anarchy. You stand apart from America.
I have basement full of tools. Very dangerous tools. None of them pose any danger to anyone else but to me.
I am scared to death of my table saw. That thing could cut my hand off in a second. That is precisely why I have never been injured by it. The cavalier attitude you display toward guns is exactly what causes gun accidents.
I can build things with my tools. You can't build anything with a gun. They just kill. Guns don't build nations. Laws build nations.
All rights are determined by our laws. We are a nation of laws. The Constitution is not liberal utterance. Your comment reeks of anarchy. You stand apart from America.
5
The recreational shooting of guns appears to go hand-in-hand with several crimes and demeanors:
Disturbing the peace
Littering
Destruction of public property
Accidental manslaughter
Terrorism
I'm sure gun fanatics might come up with a list of imagined crimes that recreational hikers are guilty of because false equivalence is an important means for defending sociopathy and the constitutional right of anti-social behavior.
Recreational gun shooters need to be prosecuted for their statutory crimes against public property and humanity.
Disturbing the peace
Littering
Destruction of public property
Accidental manslaughter
Terrorism
I'm sure gun fanatics might come up with a list of imagined crimes that recreational hikers are guilty of because false equivalence is an important means for defending sociopathy and the constitutional right of anti-social behavior.
Recreational gun shooters need to be prosecuted for their statutory crimes against public property and humanity.
277
what about professional shooters?. You should probably stay away from sharp knives also
1
I am guessing you are a statist. People like you would come up with crimes for any activity that you do not agree with. You just wait until it is some activity you want to do and somebody comes up with a list of crimes you are 'associated' with.
1
According to your logic:
Biathlon = Terrorism?
Talk about false equivalence.
Biathlon = Terrorism?
Talk about false equivalence.
1
Who are the Republican lawmakers who propose the pro-gun laws? Let's get them voted out of congress. This article does a disservice by not naming them
21
Joe
Newsflash. It's all Republicans.
Newsflash. It's all Republicans.
2
Uh, that would be all of them except Republican Mark Kirk R-IL - S. 150, the Assault Weapons Ban of 2013 - defeated 40-60 after Sandy Hook. The Manchin amendment No. 715 was defeated on April 17, 2013 by a vote of 54 - 46. It is not the Republicans - essentially all of them vote against even doing research on gun safety. The question to ask is who the Democrats are and vote them out. Just like it took 50 years to decrease smoking, it may take 50 years to decrease the carnage in this country, but it will happen. One day we will stop being the developed country with about twenty times the gun related death rate of all other developed countries.
Who are the Democrat lawmakers who propose the anti-gun laws? Let's get them voted out of congress. This article does a disservice by not naming them
Ah the same of saw for shooters to have the same rights as mountain bikers, backbackers and ATV drivers. Those other users who cannot kill a n unseen person 1 to 5 miles away.
Folks when your gun poses the same risk to the other users as they do to you then you should expect equal rights. On one hand the shooter may not know he killed Uncle Bob making s'mores at his campfire and the other is a backbacker going rogue and asking you to stop shooting.
The right to bear arms is idiotic if it means you can fire it anywhere anytime and hazard the general public in doing it. The founding fathers did not place that right in the constitution so bubba can blast away anytime, any where. It was to make the country a secure democracy.
Gun use in public lands should not mean that other users are risking their life to tread there, you must be from another planet.
Folks when your gun poses the same risk to the other users as they do to you then you should expect equal rights. On one hand the shooter may not know he killed Uncle Bob making s'mores at his campfire and the other is a backbacker going rogue and asking you to stop shooting.
The right to bear arms is idiotic if it means you can fire it anywhere anytime and hazard the general public in doing it. The founding fathers did not place that right in the constitution so bubba can blast away anytime, any where. It was to make the country a secure democracy.
Gun use in public lands should not mean that other users are risking their life to tread there, you must be from another planet.
36
It is long past the time and sense of exhaustion to read near constant encroachment of firearms on everyday life, and the pointless destruction and intentional and "mistaken" tragedies that result from this homespun invasion in the name of cheap thrills and senseless adrenaline rushes. Remind us again please why Glenn Martin is dead.
38
My take away from this story is that the nation continues to move in an ominous direction. There is no longer a “rational middle ground” where reasonable people can discuss, negotiate, and formulate compromises. Instead our national culture is now just a polarized patchwork of “my rights are absolute and your [or society’s] rights don’t count” mini nations. Gun rights are an obvious metaphor but this assertiveness also encompasses religion and secularism, cars versus bicycles, vaccinations, and even cell phone tower construction. When everyone yells and no one even wants to listen there is a strong sense that whatever bonds hold or have held us together as a nation are fraying more rapidly than they can be replaced. The internal dissolution of American culture is a much broader and more deeply felt phenomenon that even the resentments stirred by Donald Trump as we continue to lurch towards our apparent goal of separation into “us” and them.”
27
Are these pro-gun idiots for real? Mountain bikes and ATVs are dangerous weapons. Yes, they can kill people, but typically only the operator.
A guy making s'mores with his family is killed and nobody sees the need for change? Unbelievable.
A guy making s'mores with his family is killed and nobody sees the need for change? Unbelievable.
78
They don't even see a need for change when twenty 6 year olds are slaughtered. It's called abject psycho-pathology. The diagnosis is plain as day to everyone in the world except for them.
Our national parks were established with the goal of preserving nature so all citizens could enjoy and appreciate the granduer and beauty of the geography, geology and diverse biology of the lands that were formed long before we every came to this country. And as our envioronment has become more fragile, we should do everything in our power to reduce the impact of modern society on ancient lands. Not only should guns be banned, but also all the off road vehicles that are destroying delicate grasses and rock formations. We all should be commited to leaving our park lands at least as good as if we hadn't been there. Regardless of hiking, biking or camping, we should be trying to minimize any evidence that we were there.
32
You're confusing national parks (under the dept of interior) with blm (interior) and national forests (dept of ag).
The author of the article uses the word 'backcountry' which from a regulatory standpoint is a park service term, vs 'wilderness' which is a forest service and possibly blm term.
The author of the article uses the word 'backcountry' which from a regulatory standpoint is a park service term, vs 'wilderness' which is a forest service and possibly blm term.
This started by allowing trail bikes unlimited access to these public spaces. Who should be surprised that the gun people are now trying to turn the national parks into their private shooting range? This isn't about their "rights," it's a power play that involves inconveniencing everyone else. The point of these parks is to allow people to enjoy the outdoors, i.e., wildlife and scenic beauty. In order to make that happen, guns and any loud vehicles—such as motorcycles—should be banned inside national parks.
58
This Congress - sigh. We need much more money deployed to the National Parks (including enforcement officers). And as others here have said, shooting obviously cannot be allowed in the same space as hiking. Carve out shooting areas, & rigorously enforce the rules against shooting elsewhere.
16
Finally a rational comment. Designate areas for each activity. To all those trying to take away gun rights, this is what a solution looks like. Taking away anothers rights because your right are more important? That is not freedom.
Thank you Carol for looking for a solution.
Thank you Carol for looking for a solution.
Looks like that trio in the photo could use some quality time on the trail to reflect on a gorgeous earth and the nature we inhabit and share. Try using all your senses fellas, not just the one between your legs.
14
Recreational shooting should be confined to special places designed for target practice. Any place else makes no sense. Guns should not be allowed in our National Forests. Someone must finally stand up to the NRA and just say no to the insane reckless proliferation of guns.
38
The forestry can actually set areas aside for shooters to go to and avoid this mess. I have seen that in some state run parks in California of all places. People can go do whatever they want, and shooters can do what they want.
Your comment about the NRA is just plain ignorant.
Your comment about the NRA is just plain ignorant.
The simple answer to Bill Pedersen's (director at the Utah Shooting Sports Council) question as to what gives the Bureau of Land Management the right to shut down shooting on land they control; public safety. Hikers & campers are not causing people to fear for their personal safety or deaths in these areas, shooters are. Mr. Pedersen can argue that they are irresponsible and that is reasonable. What is unreasonable is to allow it to continue.
Mr. Pedersen is the director of an advocacy group that, I suspect & hope, promotes safety in what is an inherently dangerous pastime. I would argue that if he wants shooting to resume that he and his organization become part of the solution by proposing sane rules for where people can shoot and stiff penalties for those that break the rules.
It's always amazing to me that a large number of people that engage in these types of activities portray themselves as "outdoors & nature loving folk" and have no problem leaving their trash in their wake.
Mr. Pedersen is the director of an advocacy group that, I suspect & hope, promotes safety in what is an inherently dangerous pastime. I would argue that if he wants shooting to resume that he and his organization become part of the solution by proposing sane rules for where people can shoot and stiff penalties for those that break the rules.
It's always amazing to me that a large number of people that engage in these types of activities portray themselves as "outdoors & nature loving folk" and have no problem leaving their trash in their wake.
37
The BLM already has enforcement rights. The problem is the lack of enforcers.
Backpacking doesn't kill, nor does it keep other backpackers awake at their campsites all night long.
“What gives the B.L.M. the right to go down and shut it [random gunfire] down on a whim?” Well for starters, the public, represented by the BLM, owns the land. The real whim is the unsupervised use of public space to fire lethal weaponry, sometimes while drunk, where people seek rest and relaxation. Time and again, our domestic gun activists demonstrate their lack of fitness for the privilege of using national parks, forests and monuments.
Our gun culture has become a national threat, with escape hatches progressively closed almost by the day. Restaurants, bars, churches, shopping malls, schools, university campuses, playgrounds, sports venues: guns everywhere, 24/7, except the government buildings where gun-enabling laws are enacted in the first place.
Where do folks seeking bullet-free family time go, besides locking themselves up perpetually in their homes?
www.endthemadnessnow.org
“What gives the B.L.M. the right to go down and shut it [random gunfire] down on a whim?” Well for starters, the public, represented by the BLM, owns the land. The real whim is the unsupervised use of public space to fire lethal weaponry, sometimes while drunk, where people seek rest and relaxation. Time and again, our domestic gun activists demonstrate their lack of fitness for the privilege of using national parks, forests and monuments.
Our gun culture has become a national threat, with escape hatches progressively closed almost by the day. Restaurants, bars, churches, shopping malls, schools, university campuses, playgrounds, sports venues: guns everywhere, 24/7, except the government buildings where gun-enabling laws are enacted in the first place.
Where do folks seeking bullet-free family time go, besides locking themselves up perpetually in their homes?
www.endthemadnessnow.org
43
No one should vote for any person who does not support sensible gun reform. No other industry would be able to kill so many people without countless hearings and reform. Time to amend the 2nd amendment.
14
What is sensible? What is sensible to you probably will not be sensible to me or the guy sitting next to me. What this actually means is to ban guns altogether.
No other industry would be able to kill so many people without countless ...
Like abortion?!
Like abortion?!
I have been a target shooter for years. I enjoy the challenge of shooting clay targets and love spending the time outdoors with my son and friends. Most of the shooters I know are avid outdoors lovers. We love the land and the time we get to spend with it.
I am appalled by the behavior of those who would leave the remnants of this sport for others to clean up. We always gathered up our shells and any targets which were left over. (Good clay pigeons ore designed to degrade after one or two rains hit hem.)
Any shooter who doesn't have a backstop behind their target is clueless. We always shoot on private land which is posted to avoid accidents.
Please do not lump all target shooters in with these clowns, they don't represent the majority of sportsmen I know.
I am appalled by the behavior of those who would leave the remnants of this sport for others to clean up. We always gathered up our shells and any targets which were left over. (Good clay pigeons ore designed to degrade after one or two rains hit hem.)
Any shooter who doesn't have a backstop behind their target is clueless. We always shoot on private land which is posted to avoid accidents.
Please do not lump all target shooters in with these clowns, they don't represent the majority of sportsmen I know.
17
Yes but they are represented by the NRA and other pro gun politicians. Do you vote for those politicians? Do you support the NRA?
We know you are out there, why are you letting these people be the voice of gun ownership in america?
We know you are out there, why are you letting these people be the voice of gun ownership in america?
Your responsible shooting on private land is not the problem this article is focusing on. Carry on, have fun.
This article confuses. Someone more paranoid might conclude that there is an overt attempt to find new anti-gun and anti-gun memes that will, hopefully in the authors' eyes, help to estrange gun owners, from the main population and from each other.
In this case, I can almost hear someone thinking: hey. The problem with trying to get rid of guns is that the rural folk all have them. Let's come up with a topic that divides the rural people and pits them against each other. Maybe we can look at how guns are being "misused" in rural areas.
What does the New York Times know about rural culture? To New Yorkers, this article makes it seem like there's a shooter behind every rock and tree out there. I grew up in the woods and so I can tell you a few things. First, this is hardly a new phenomenon. People shoot in the woods. That's what they do. This was happening 45 years ago when I was a child. It is hardly the epidemic that this article makes it out to be. It ain't Central Park out there--there are vast open spaces and it's very unlikely that you will get hit by a stray bullet. As for all the "trash" left behind from shooters: there is far more trash dumped in the woods just so that people can get rid of it.
"Culture Clash?" Between New York and rural spots, maybe, as this article seems to demonstrate unintentionally. I can assure you there is hardly a clash of gun cultures in true rural America.
In this case, I can almost hear someone thinking: hey. The problem with trying to get rid of guns is that the rural folk all have them. Let's come up with a topic that divides the rural people and pits them against each other. Maybe we can look at how guns are being "misused" in rural areas.
What does the New York Times know about rural culture? To New Yorkers, this article makes it seem like there's a shooter behind every rock and tree out there. I grew up in the woods and so I can tell you a few things. First, this is hardly a new phenomenon. People shoot in the woods. That's what they do. This was happening 45 years ago when I was a child. It is hardly the epidemic that this article makes it out to be. It ain't Central Park out there--there are vast open spaces and it's very unlikely that you will get hit by a stray bullet. As for all the "trash" left behind from shooters: there is far more trash dumped in the woods just so that people can get rid of it.
"Culture Clash?" Between New York and rural spots, maybe, as this article seems to demonstrate unintentionally. I can assure you there is hardly a clash of gun cultures in true rural America.
99
I grew up in a rural area, too, and yes, we all enjoyed going out hunting or target shooting. Always, this was on private land and we were VERY careful about choosing the location to ensure that strays didn't go anywhere near populated areas. Good hunters always check the backdrop before firing, too.
The issue here is about PUBLIC lands, which are lands to which all Americans have rights. In my mind, the death of a single camper on such land is enough to give pause and reconsider current policies, let alone all the other problems raised in this article.
The population has grown since we were kids. Public lands are more crowded than ever. When I go hiking, I don't have to worry about other hikers, bikers, campers, etc. They're not my problem. But I have to worry about shooters (although they don't have to worry about me). How is that fair? A guy with a gun and no respect for others basically claims rights to everything within 1000 yards in any direction.
The issue here is about PUBLIC lands, which are lands to which all Americans have rights. In my mind, the death of a single camper on such land is enough to give pause and reconsider current policies, let alone all the other problems raised in this article.
The population has grown since we were kids. Public lands are more crowded than ever. When I go hiking, I don't have to worry about other hikers, bikers, campers, etc. They're not my problem. But I have to worry about shooters (although they don't have to worry about me). How is that fair? A guy with a gun and no respect for others basically claims rights to everything within 1000 yards in any direction.
43
We in "true rural America" also have the decency to clean up after ourselves. After every shootout, we take an hour to comb the weeds for every sliver of skeet and every spent shell we can find. That's the way people in "true rural" America do it because we respect the land and others who use it (wildlife included).
23
The article actually recounts actual events - too bad we don't have the statistics on how much trash is left by the shooters, how many trees are damaged, etc. This is not about rural versus urban, but about the encroachment on public lands of activity that has no place in our national parks.
21
I used to view the NRA as a group that promoted gun safety, hunter safety, etc. Over the past decade though, they seem to have turned into an extremist, radicalized, aggressive group that's doing a great job of alienated and scaring people who are on the fence regarding 2nd Amendment issues. I believe that perception is growing among others and will eventually lead to their undoing.
13
Quite the contrary. NRA membership is growing, as is gun ownership. This is in direct response to an administration that is bent on imperialistic behaviors, disregarding the Constitution, and treating laws as guidelines to be ignored at will.
The results of the last two elections reflect America's attitude toward government control, and 2016 is shaping up to be another referendum on liberal fascism.
If you are more comfortable in a "gun free" area, perhaps downtown Detroit would appeal to your sensibilities?
The results of the last two elections reflect America's attitude toward government control, and 2016 is shaping up to be another referendum on liberal fascism.
If you are more comfortable in a "gun free" area, perhaps downtown Detroit would appeal to your sensibilities?
Thanks for proving my point.
These shooters are selfish bullies making a mess on OUR land. But they scream and cry and hold their breath when challenged and it is just easier to give in to them.
We have to stop that. We have to fight back. We have to speak up as loudly as they do. Right now, Congress only hears them.
We have to stop that. We have to fight back. We have to speak up as loudly as they do. Right now, Congress only hears them.
20
If all the bikers and hikers wore body armor and where armed to the teeth this wouldn't be a problem. As the great american hero Ted Nugent said "An armed society is a polite society". I just thought I would beat the NRA to it's official response to the article.
4
As both a target shooter (who goes to ranges and private property) and an avid hiker and outdoorsman, I think one of the best metaphors for who has the moral high-ground is in the ingrained hiker/outdoorsman ethos of "carry in carry out". Compare that to the innumerable spent casings, shards of neon clay pigeon and shot up tin cans and whatever else.
Maybe 5%-10% of the shooters I have known make a real effort to pick up their shells/targets/trash/whatever versus 98+% of people in the backcountry who "leave no trace". HIking is so much about leaving no impact, enjoying the beauty and majesty of America's natural wonders and preserving the space for future generations. I just can't see that in the other party here.
This doesn't even touch on the fact of which party is an actual danger to the other.
Maybe 5%-10% of the shooters I have known make a real effort to pick up their shells/targets/trash/whatever versus 98+% of people in the backcountry who "leave no trace". HIking is so much about leaving no impact, enjoying the beauty and majesty of America's natural wonders and preserving the space for future generations. I just can't see that in the other party here.
This doesn't even touch on the fact of which party is an actual danger to the other.
103
"Maybe 5%-10% of the shooters I have known make a real effort to pick up their shells/targets/trash/whatever"
Even those 5-10% leave their lead behind for centuries and are likely to squawk if non-lead ammo is suggested.
Even those 5-10% leave their lead behind for centuries and are likely to squawk if non-lead ammo is suggested.
1
I appreciate what you said, but every shooter I know has always taken the extra steps to make sure everything they brought was taken out plus whatever other trash/refuse that they find. I think your 5-10% approximation is off.
That's fair and I realize it's very subjective. The fellows I do stalks/overnight hunts with are just as minimal-impact as any hikers I know- since they tend to be my favorite hiking buddies too, but target shooters (should I say "casuals"), in my experience, are of a different breed. You can always tell where people have set up a makeshift skeet shoot or range or something like that. Not so with hikers setting up a camp site.
Also, some clubs/private properties clean up all your refuse (or do not set expectations that people should properly clean up after themselves), so I am counting those, even though I think they teach bad habits, but admittedly they likely attract the type of person I am including in my 90%.
Also, some clubs/private properties clean up all your refuse (or do not set expectations that people should properly clean up after themselves), so I am counting those, even though I think they teach bad habits, but admittedly they likely attract the type of person I am including in my 90%.
Old rules like: "Always be aware of your target and that which is beyond" and to "clean up after yourself" need to be re-enthroned. No shooter should ever tell a hiker to "stay away from here because it is dangerous" because no one should ever be shooting across a road, trail, over a rise, or into trees or bushes.