It is time to rediscover the Sabbath principle. People who wait until morning to answer their boss's texts, or will only show up six days a week, or take comp time for overtime, are the new Eric Liddell. It's time for a re'release of "Chariots of Fire" and for people to apply it to their work world.
I worked for a time at a book distribution company that contracts with Amazon to fulfill its orders and does contractual book cataloging for libraries. It was a horrible experience but had I not worked there, I probably wouldn't so readily believe the stories of Amazon. Most of the employees in my division (cataloging division) were salaried, so they had the joy of working 50-60 hours a week for no extra pay. One of my co-workers did the math and figured out that for several weeks, she made an hourly wage of barely over minimum due to all the unpaid overtime, despite having the master's degree required for the position. We were told that the overtime was due to an excessive workload, although the number in backlog that constituted excessive changed every few weeks. Now, the company is having difficulty keeping their staffing needs filled as people (like me) bail out as soon as they can find a more sensible job.
Welcome to the modern workplace. You, as an employee, are simply a cog in a wheel that serves to make others more money, which rarely filters down. If you would work for nothing, all the better!
I used to order from Amazon, but now? Not so much.
Welcome to the modern workplace. You, as an employee, are simply a cog in a wheel that serves to make others more money, which rarely filters down. If you would work for nothing, all the better!
I used to order from Amazon, but now? Not so much.
I followed the link from Columbia Univ's alumni page. The authors' pictures lead me to suspect a snarky approach, anticipating evil to reported on from amazon, to make a hot article. Whether other companies use similar methods, or should these be acceptable or helpful approaches overall, would seem to fall outside their scope "of investigation."
This kind of appalling behavior has always existed in the business world and will continue no matter what - the pursuit of profit can bring out the worst in people. As toxic as the corporate culture is at Amazon, better there in the contained environment of the business world, rather than in education or politics. We should think twice about bringing that uber-competitive, borderline sociopathic mentality into the running of our schools and government. We should not trust these important tasks to those incapable of viewing others as human beings.
After reading about how employees are treates I would never buy anything from Amazon. What a culture of bad workplace treatment thinking that would help their profits when everyone knows that a good environment encourages emplyees to be more productive.
There is no discussion about how most of the customer
support for 3rd party sellers on Amazon now comes from India.
Amazon is also using workers in India for after hours regular customer
support although the calls appear to come from Seattle.
support for 3rd party sellers on Amazon now comes from India.
Amazon is also using workers in India for after hours regular customer
support although the calls appear to come from Seattle.
Yes, Amazon now has a great opportunity to respond to this firestorm of criticism of its corporate cultural brought on by the expose' in the NYTimes. However, after hiring, training, and encouraging dog-eat-dog backstabbing employees, it certainly has an enormous task ahead. Do they jettison such people who may not be retrainable to do what is maybe now against their nature? I am reminded of the African proverb, "Once the baby is born, you cannot put it back into the womb." Meanwhile, due to the permanence of social media and comments here, Amazon's current situation will end up being an urban legend long after they clean up their mess...if they have the will to do so.
Americans will burn three dollars worth of gas to save a dollar across town. We are largely turned into idiots addicted to mythical bargains.
4
Someone has to be right here--either the woman who wrote in (Katie) or Amazon. I am an Amazon user, and think that I will continue, for the most part.
Amazon has to change their policies to some degree. The thing that makes me mad is that when you look at the description of a product, it says the item is sold by a third party, and fulfilled by Amazon. Thus, if you have a problem with a product, Amazon tells you "we did not sell you this product, and you have to deal with the third party." This enrages me no end. If a product is for sale on the Amazon web site, THEY SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE if you have a problem with the product. Now I only buy a product if the description says "sold by Amazon."
Amazon has to change their policies to some degree. The thing that makes me mad is that when you look at the description of a product, it says the item is sold by a third party, and fulfilled by Amazon. Thus, if you have a problem with a product, Amazon tells you "we did not sell you this product, and you have to deal with the third party." This enrages me no end. If a product is for sale on the Amazon web site, THEY SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE if you have a problem with the product. Now I only buy a product if the description says "sold by Amazon."
The most notable element about Jeff Bezo's rebuttal is the poor writing; he packs a few paragraphs with dull cliches, has an antecedent fail to agree with the subject, and goofily undermines his plea for empathy by warning of "zero tolerance." It betrays his arrogance; as head of a huge, rich company, he either felt his writing was too good to edit or at least re-read--or, he relied on a weak editor. Mr. Bezos regularly reveals himself to be unimpressive as a human being, and now as a writer. -- Michael McGettigan, Philadelphia.
2
Amazon has a golden opportunity now in light of all the recent disclosures about the company and their policies toward employees. Seize the moment, Amazon and take your company with all it's brilliant employees far ahead on a new platform that can be a role model for all your competitors now and for a long time in the future going forward. To do that you will need to hire and put in place completely independent observers, doers, observers; in other words, a committee and team or crew, if you will, who will create a greater, more equitable platform for you to move your Amazon monster forward. Monster is fine, when your monster is a righteous one, we all benefit. You can do it, now is the time, make amends and build a better platform not a swifter delivery system, with the whole world watching. My confidence, the confidence of others who are pulling for you and your great company - our confidence is that you will do just that. Lead the edge, but in the best possible way, not merely for market share and revenue but for the humanity of yourself and your organization.
No one is forced to work for Amazon; if working conditions were as bleak as portrayed in the article no employee would stick around for long and the business would long since have failed. I therefore believe the article is biased and fails to present adequately the reasons so many people chose to work for, and want to work for, Amazon.
Shame on the mindless liberals who call for boycotting Amazon while at the same time buying brand-name shoes, clothing and countless other items produced by offshore workers who really do labor under sweat-shop conditions at unconscionably low pay levels.
Shame on the mindless liberals who call for boycotting Amazon while at the same time buying brand-name shoes, clothing and countless other items produced by offshore workers who really do labor under sweat-shop conditions at unconscionably low pay levels.
No one is forced to work at Amazon, but they need the money. Rent consumes half of their pay checks.
One can email Jeff Bezos. His email is well known [email protected]
I sent him the link to the NY Times story last Saturday. He must have been REALLY scrambling. First time in over 15 years he didn’t email back. He actually HAD been quite good at answering my questions re: Amazon’s service.
Jeff Bezos is now worth over $90 BILLION. No doubt coincidence that both he and Steve Jobs were adopted.
I sent him the link to the NY Times story last Saturday. He must have been REALLY scrambling. First time in over 15 years he didn’t email back. He actually HAD been quite good at answering my questions re: Amazon’s service.
Jeff Bezos is now worth over $90 BILLION. No doubt coincidence that both he and Steve Jobs were adopted.
3
No more amazon shopping for me. Of course, they can run it however they want. It's the Stasi techniques of ratting on your colleagues that really turn my stomach. I just don't want to support proliferation of the concept.
1
unions people! jesus, does this even need to be stated? We need better laws to support union organizing. It's the only way that employees EVER achieve anything
1
My email to Mr. Bezos is below. BTW- my husband works 12 plus hours 6 days per week so we know about hard work. Mr. Bezos does not appear to differentiate between hard work, which I applaud, and appalling workplace guidelines.
"I was as alarmed as I hope you were upon reading the NY Times Amazon article. As you are the only game in town I presume you will not alter your employee practices, however I urge you to consider a comprehensive policy review.
A few highlights: Must management text and email during unreasonable hours? The woman who miscarried twins should have been given a break and someone else step in for the immediate tasks. In 2011 staff worked in 100 degree plus weather until you were forced to provide air conditioning. This is so egregious I don’t even know how to comment. Criticism of fellow employees for career advancement is appalling. People should be allowed to work in dignity and have a life beyond Amazon.
You are either blind to employee policies or a willing participant. I am sickened by the examples outlined in the article and strongly suggest you humanize your creation."
"I was as alarmed as I hope you were upon reading the NY Times Amazon article. As you are the only game in town I presume you will not alter your employee practices, however I urge you to consider a comprehensive policy review.
A few highlights: Must management text and email during unreasonable hours? The woman who miscarried twins should have been given a break and someone else step in for the immediate tasks. In 2011 staff worked in 100 degree plus weather until you were forced to provide air conditioning. This is so egregious I don’t even know how to comment. Criticism of fellow employees for career advancement is appalling. People should be allowed to work in dignity and have a life beyond Amazon.
You are either blind to employee policies or a willing participant. I am sickened by the examples outlined in the article and strongly suggest you humanize your creation."
1
Canada Post adds insult to injury for Canadian Amazon shoppers - whose ranks we recently left.
Amazon's free-shipping crashes like a defective drone when you try to check out and discover that three CDs totalling $34 has morphed into a total of $75... with $36 in shipping charges. For 3 CDs.
Seems Canada Post has declared every address not in a major city to be "remote." Like ours, for example - ten miles from Montana, on a provincial highway serving a quarter-million visitors to a National Park. Nice try, but I suspect revenues at the Pest Office will actually drop when this news sinks in.
Amazon's free-shipping crashes like a defective drone when you try to check out and discover that three CDs totalling $34 has morphed into a total of $75... with $36 in shipping charges. For 3 CDs.
Seems Canada Post has declared every address not in a major city to be "remote." Like ours, for example - ten miles from Montana, on a provincial highway serving a quarter-million visitors to a National Park. Nice try, but I suspect revenues at the Pest Office will actually drop when this news sinks in.
1
Bad behavior aside, they make terrible products, appear to give little or no thought to their user experience, and every time I have ordered something on Amazon it arrived broken. Don't need it, don't want it.
Yes, Amazon and many other work places are competitive. Life has always been competitive. Just ask the youngest child in the family who scrambles to get enough food, attention, etc. School is competitive (valedictorians!), sports are competitive (just ask the ex-NY ball players sent down to the minor leagues), neighbors are competitive (Keeping up with the Joneses).
Working at Amazon is a choice. If you don't like the competition there, work someplace else with less competition. If you don't like competition at all, then I hope you know how to apply for and use the benefits offered by the social safety net.
Working at Amazon is a choice. If you don't like the competition there, work someplace else with less competition. If you don't like competition at all, then I hope you know how to apply for and use the benefits offered by the social safety net.
There is no need to debate whether Jeff is an unreasonable or a reasonable company owner, because more accurately than anyone, he knows deep within which one he is. One thing we know about Jeff is that he is definitely not a philantropist. Even if he has been too hard for too long, he still has a lot of time and opportunity to move on to the soft side. At the end of the day, it is up to him to think, speak and act, hence live as he wants.
Inside Amazon: Wrestling Big Ideas in a Bruising Workplace is not the first attempt to uncover the draconian business practices of Amazon, however it does dive deeply into it's ridiculously inhospitable office culture. The saddest part about this is that there is no need to conduct business in this manner.
I interviewed with Amazon in what was one of the worst interview cycles of my entire tech career. It was mishandled in the beginning when I was sent an incorrect job spec, to the end, when I asked my potential peer what motivated him the most about his job. Pro-tip: "the RSUs" as an answer does not inspire confidence for a potential candidate.
I currently work for a social media company and I can tell you that the organization strives for a culture where it's people are treated not only humanely, but actually cared for. AND, shocker, my company is still satisfying its shareholders. Maybe Amazon should look around at the companies its engineers move on to and take a few lessons around ethical and responsible ways to treat its employees.
I interviewed with Amazon in what was one of the worst interview cycles of my entire tech career. It was mishandled in the beginning when I was sent an incorrect job spec, to the end, when I asked my potential peer what motivated him the most about his job. Pro-tip: "the RSUs" as an answer does not inspire confidence for a potential candidate.
I currently work for a social media company and I can tell you that the organization strives for a culture where it's people are treated not only humanely, but actually cared for. AND, shocker, my company is still satisfying its shareholders. Maybe Amazon should look around at the companies its engineers move on to and take a few lessons around ethical and responsible ways to treat its employees.
1
I find being conflicted at the treatment of these US white-collar professionals by Amazon perplexing. In this instance, these people elect to work for this employer. Much is expected, but it seems that they're given compensation based on their performance. And frankly, to a lesser degree the company I work for engages in some of the same practices. But what I don't understand is the call to boycott on the behalf of these workers employed by Aamazon. How about the people who work in China, Vietnam, India and other countries that don't have governments who regulate how much they get paid, how long they can work and how they're compensated and whose output is sold on Amazon and most other retailers? Don't those people matter?
10
Well now I will certainly stop purchasing anything through Amazon.. What a dishonest company, pushing their employees to the point of no return is not a "work" environment, it is the equivalent of slavery in its worst form. Several attempts at sending gifts to an address in the Bronx, made me wonder if Amazon also practiced some form of redlining...It certainly was convenient, there must be other companies who provide similar services?
For the Seattle Guy, well we hope you spend time working at Amazon, perhaps you would like to send your wife there?
For the Seattle Guy, well we hope you spend time working at Amazon, perhaps you would like to send your wife there?
3
Slavery for $100,000 salaries? Ok, that's a new kind of slavery I'm guessing a LOT of people would go for in areas still not recovered from the last economic crisis that continues to linger in spite of claims to the contrary coming from 1600 Pennsylvania...
What is going to happen, is that Amazon will end up with unionized employees,
because of their personnel policies! If you read in The Times that the article on Amazon haD 5,000 or 6000 replies, they certainly are successful. But in the end,
they will lose business for the way they treat people, myself included.
because of their personnel policies! If you read in The Times that the article on Amazon haD 5,000 or 6000 replies, they certainly are successful. But in the end,
they will lose business for the way they treat people, myself included.
I have a young friend in his early 20s who works for Amazon in Dallas. He says it's hard work, but he's happy there and likes the benefits. He has been rewarded with shares of stock in the company and is glad to work at a place that has a good 401K. He doesn't plan to work there forever, but he's happy to be gaining experience and getting the good benefits. The people who grumble don't have to work there. In today's economy, there are plenty of other people who would love to have their jobs.
2
PLEASE NOTE: The Colonel is a professional Op-Ed writer for the Sunday "Guardian"
The final irony is for Jeff Bezos. None of the ideas being exploited on the Amazon shop floor are new or add anything to our knowledge of shop management.
These ideas were all being practiced by employers in the 19th century, and do you know what? They led to the introduction of unionism. -The Colonel
The final irony is for Jeff Bezos. None of the ideas being exploited on the Amazon shop floor are new or add anything to our knowledge of shop management.
These ideas were all being practiced by employers in the 19th century, and do you know what? They led to the introduction of unionism. -The Colonel
9
I've been around for a while and know about the long hours but lately it has been 40 hour work weeks as I near retirement. Once upon a time you could work and have upward mobility. Job security is a relic of the past. Treating the worker bees like expendible resources is commonplace in large organizations and businesses.
My personal economics research allowed me to figure out what really goes on when we try to make a living. I analyzed this process of college ed or trade school for a career and then working the 40+ year plan stuggling all the time.
What I found out is that it is a scam because there are people who don't live this way at all. The educational system funnels people though it to fall into the trap of work enslavement. The trick is to find out early in life so you don't
become a work slave. Young people - own your own life; don't give it up. Life is too short to live in an office space.
In any case you can't get ahead working in ordinary jobs and that and is what most people are doing. I've found ways to move beyond that. My business at www.lawrencetscott.com has a unique focus on teaching strategies you can use at your option to increase your income and get ahead.
Don't give up your life and family for any job. Learn how it is possible by changing your strategies.
My personal economics research allowed me to figure out what really goes on when we try to make a living. I analyzed this process of college ed or trade school for a career and then working the 40+ year plan stuggling all the time.
What I found out is that it is a scam because there are people who don't live this way at all. The educational system funnels people though it to fall into the trap of work enslavement. The trick is to find out early in life so you don't
become a work slave. Young people - own your own life; don't give it up. Life is too short to live in an office space.
In any case you can't get ahead working in ordinary jobs and that and is what most people are doing. I've found ways to move beyond that. My business at www.lawrencetscott.com has a unique focus on teaching strategies you can use at your option to increase your income and get ahead.
Don't give up your life and family for any job. Learn how it is possible by changing your strategies.
1
Such a fascinating, popular article deserves a more informative follow-up piece than this. This piece reads more like a man-in-the-street interview than an analysis of 6,000+ comments.
This follow-up piece highlights ~10 perspectives from commenters.
- How were these perspectives chosen – the most frequently-mentioned themes? the most provocative comments?
- What % of the 6000+ comments supported each of the perspectives highlighted? (“many” is an insufficient descriptor when the data are available)
- Are the highlighted perspectives representative of the entirety of the comments?
The follow-up piece includes only comments from non-Amazon employees.
- What % of comments were made by people who self-identified as current or former Amazon employees or immediate family? (from reading hundreds of comments, I know there were quite a few)
- How did the comments made by people employed by Amazon compare to those not employed by Amazon? (e.g., % supporting each of the perspectives highlighted in this follow-up piece)
- Were any of the comments made by Amazon-connected people different in theme from those made by the broader population?
I found the comments fascinating, and learned a good bit from the range of differing perspectives. While the original article was well-written, I find this follow-up to be highlighting primarily those points that support the angle of the original article. So much deeper insight can be drawn from 6,000+ comments!
This follow-up piece highlights ~10 perspectives from commenters.
- How were these perspectives chosen – the most frequently-mentioned themes? the most provocative comments?
- What % of the 6000+ comments supported each of the perspectives highlighted? (“many” is an insufficient descriptor when the data are available)
- Are the highlighted perspectives representative of the entirety of the comments?
The follow-up piece includes only comments from non-Amazon employees.
- What % of comments were made by people who self-identified as current or former Amazon employees or immediate family? (from reading hundreds of comments, I know there were quite a few)
- How did the comments made by people employed by Amazon compare to those not employed by Amazon? (e.g., % supporting each of the perspectives highlighted in this follow-up piece)
- Were any of the comments made by Amazon-connected people different in theme from those made by the broader population?
I found the comments fascinating, and learned a good bit from the range of differing perspectives. While the original article was well-written, I find this follow-up to be highlighting primarily those points that support the angle of the original article. So much deeper insight can be drawn from 6,000+ comments!
5
I stopped patronizing Amazon years ago. I would much rather purchase directly from smaller outfits either in person or on-line. Maybe I pay a touch more, but I look at Amazon as another organization encouraging a "race-to-the-bottom" and I would rather not participate in that race.
9
People at Amazon who work hard will be rewarded very generously, both financially and intellectually. The others will do what so many here are doing: whine.
5
given the rumors that Bezos is going to bundle Washington Post digital subscriptions with Amazon Prime accounts, it only makes sense for the NYT to adopt a strategy of pushing articles about people dropping their Prime accounts. Business savvy, but not entirely ethical from a news reader's point of view.
3
In almost any large company those who want to "get ahead" once they get past the bottom rung of the ladder work many more than 40 hours every week. The article did not identify the job level at which this overtime was required. At the bottom the law requires overtime pay. And, you can always find a true story to support your argument.
I live in a small town (1000 voters) with over a half hour drive to a Walmart. Many items I want or need can only be found with a 2 to 4 hour trip. So, yes, I use Amazon and will continue to use them.
I live in a small town (1000 voters) with over a half hour drive to a Walmart. Many items I want or need can only be found with a 2 to 4 hour trip. So, yes, I use Amazon and will continue to use them.
3
Ditto, I live in a clogged suburban area and same issues.....traffic to a store 5-10 miles away can result in a 45min commute, jammed parking lots and clerks in the store having no idea where the item I want is located. A waste of time, gas and aggravation. Yes, I shop Amazon. I do shop hyper-local if its available...like my local bookstore and hardware store...but other things that require a trip to the mall...well just forget it!
1
I wonder how civilization survived at all, then, before Amazon ... during the several millennia when NO ONE lived near a Walmart, either. But heaven forfend we somehow manage to procure the items we need to live, in whatever manner it was we somehow accomplished this before the 1990's. Does anyone remember?
2
I'm perplexed by all the comments indicating that the work environment at Amazon is new or unusual. I worked most of my 40-year career at companies where 60-hour-plus weeks were standard, lots of travel was required, vacation was two weeks per year, meetings at 6 AM or 6 PM were not unusual, coming to the office on weekends and working after dinner at home were standard. These were, and still are, standard working conditions for executives, attorneys, doctors, etc. You never really get away from your job, vacations are punishing due to the work before and after to catch up, no one worries about your work-life balance, and burn-out is a constant threat. it's also not unusual for hourly workers -- mandatory overtime is cheaper and much more flexible than hiring more employees.
So, it's not a good way to live, but I'm not understanding why it's a basis for pillorying Amazon. Companies in highly competitive environments have to do everything possible to get ahead, and working long, hard hours is part of that in most companies, whether they are successful or trying to hold on to a failing business. The employee's only practical option is to find a better job, but that isn't always so easy. Perhaps it's time for unions to make a comeback? In the current environment, we certainly won't see any government action to protect employees.
So, it's not a good way to live, but I'm not understanding why it's a basis for pillorying Amazon. Companies in highly competitive environments have to do everything possible to get ahead, and working long, hard hours is part of that in most companies, whether they are successful or trying to hold on to a failing business. The employee's only practical option is to find a better job, but that isn't always so easy. Perhaps it's time for unions to make a comeback? In the current environment, we certainly won't see any government action to protect employees.
8
Interesting...was thinking the same. My 35yr career included those 50-60+ hr weeks. No much in the way of the 24/7 connectivity on-call stuff, but lots of late night work. AND was much more efficient as there were no beeps and dings interrupting me all the time. Amazon sounds like an intense work experience just like mine. I do not recall the nasty attitudes to personal emergencies, though. That might be a result of the electronically induced 15sec attention span associated with devices and other distractions.....a bad side effect.
1
The change in the "attitude to personal emergencies" stems from the fact that women are now in the workforce in equal numbers and nearly as often in professional roles. Men didn't need to be late or leave early to deal with family situations because their wives took care of that stuff. Some people haven't yet gotten the message that we're sort of splitting all that stuff equally now - time to get over it!
I am grateful to this paper for publishing articles exposing Disney for laying off American employees, only to replace them by the H1B visa holders, and this, about Amazon's workplace practices. We, the consumers, need to be aware of those facts before we decide where to go on vacation or whose products to buy. We have the power, but to exercise it, we need knowledge. After all, an educated consumer is the best customer.
12
At the end of the day, most of us are "workers," not the golden job creators of this world. We must stand up for each other. To paraphrase the famous poem from wartime Europe, first they came for the day laborers and I said nothing, next they came for the white collar workers and there was no one left to speak for me.
10
Why does this surprise anyone? This company is one man's well funded ego trip.
7
Amazon is a new religion with its workers being kept in delusion. It will survive as is as long as there are believers. Unlikely though.
8
Amazon has become the Walmart of the written word. It's the high cost of low price all over again.
But, for people on a budget, I consider that the sleeved commemorative edition of TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD was recently selling for about $35 in Barnes and Noble stores, while Amazon was offering the same item online for $19.
For many, it's simply too hard to resist getting almost two books for the price of one and, in some cases, even avoiding sales tax.
But, for people on a budget, I consider that the sleeved commemorative edition of TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD was recently selling for about $35 in Barnes and Noble stores, while Amazon was offering the same item online for $19.
For many, it's simply too hard to resist getting almost two books for the price of one and, in some cases, even avoiding sales tax.
5
What did Freud say about love and work...Amazon just forgot the love part.
2
I've been in the technology field for nearly thirty years. I've done the 80 hour work weeks. I completed a tour through the startup frenzy and bust of the late 1990's era. I've worked private and public sectors both, as both an engineer and a manager. Needless to say, I've been around the block a time or three.
I currently work a 9-5, 40 hour/wk job with good benefits, weekends free, and all the holidays. I have absolutely no desire to go back to the frenzy and bruising schedule, because, quite simply, life is too short. I've heard the promises, drunk the cool-aid, lived the intensity, and all the while people like Jeff Bezos become richer and richer. It's just not worth it.
My advice to the younger generation: Don't fall for the scam. Take care of yourself first, and invest in your friends and family. For when the 80 hour weeks fade with your hairline and the stock options go bust, Jeff Bezos and his ilk will not be there for you. Your health, friends and family will.
I currently work a 9-5, 40 hour/wk job with good benefits, weekends free, and all the holidays. I have absolutely no desire to go back to the frenzy and bruising schedule, because, quite simply, life is too short. I've heard the promises, drunk the cool-aid, lived the intensity, and all the while people like Jeff Bezos become richer and richer. It's just not worth it.
My advice to the younger generation: Don't fall for the scam. Take care of yourself first, and invest in your friends and family. For when the 80 hour weeks fade with your hairline and the stock options go bust, Jeff Bezos and his ilk will not be there for you. Your health, friends and family will.
19
This lengthy investigation of Amazon work practices and the many articulate responses on many sides by defenders and detractors alike, could be the start of a great debate about what a work place should be like in the next decades of the 21st century.
22
It is difficult to be sure comments on the amazon story were at an all time high, as the NYT closes comments on some articles early sometimes. Especially, in my view, when the are very critical of the author. And why is that?
9
Yelladogdemo writes: "I have been boycotting Amazon since it started. Unfortunately, I have had to cross my own line when, for example, I found only on Amazon replacement heads for my electric toothbrush." Doing the right thing shouldn't turn on convenience. Get a different toothbrush!!!
7
Off subject, but important...why are the replacement heads disappearing? I don't see a new electric toothbrush in the offing.
It's good that these practices have come to light, and I hope it changes Amazon's behavior, but I doubt that it will. Squeezing the most out of employees is how Amazon delivers its low prices. For those who say they are willing to pay a little more rather than support such a company, there are hundreds of other places to buy just about anything, they're just not as cheap and convenient as Amazon.
2
It's not at all unusual to find that 'cheap and convenient' come at a cost, making these 'advantages' unsustainable because of impacts, and sometimes very real damage, to things such as labor practices, the environment, etc., that aren't always very immediately evident to the majority of consumers.
In all the years of observation of the ever evolving practices of commerce and the touting of the conveniences provided by their products or services, I've found there's almost *always* a trade off somewhere making them less than appealing to anyone who cares enough to look past the hype and be willing to scratch below the surface before jumping on the bandwagon.
In all the years of observation of the ever evolving practices of commerce and the touting of the conveniences provided by their products or services, I've found there's almost *always* a trade off somewhere making them less than appealing to anyone who cares enough to look past the hype and be willing to scratch below the surface before jumping on the bandwagon.
3
I don't see any comment about Amazon's effort to gain a monopoly on as many products as possible. That's enough for me to go elsewhere. I worked many years in big business and never was anyone treated as has been reported here. The employees did better in a pleasant atmosphere where their work was appreciated.
7
I agree, mmp. In every position I've ever held, when employees were surveyed as to what they find important and creates a good working environment, being appreciated and treated with respect for the work they do and the contributions they make always ranked number one above everything else, including salary.
Amazon is today's version of a coalmine before labor unions and federal oversight - unbelievable hellholes that killed and destroyed thousands of people. White collar workers now have as little power as the blue collar miners of old. This is why we need unions and workplace oversight by public agencies. The self-regarding Bezos of the world simply don't get it, so it's means war, hopefully economic and political rather than physical. There is no reasoning with a predator. America's quality of life is at stake.
19
We currently live in a hyper-individualistic culture, where personal consumer convenience is the ultimate good. That is what Amazon is predicating its policies on and, very unfortunately, I'm inclined to think it's a safe bet on their part.
Hopefully I will be proved wrong, and an online boycott of Amazon will be organized and prove highly successful. Sadly, I see no evidence I should bet on such, anymore than I should bet that 90% of the people who complain about the state of politics and policy in America will actually vote in 2016.
Hopefully I will be proved wrong, and an online boycott of Amazon will be organized and prove highly successful. Sadly, I see no evidence I should bet on such, anymore than I should bet that 90% of the people who complain about the state of politics and policy in America will actually vote in 2016.
9
I've seen far more compelling articles in the NYT shut down comments well before 5000 plus. I've seen far more compelling articles, very frustratingly, not provide the comments opportunity at all. So I'm confused here. While I certainly care about the issues in this article, I'm dubious around whether I can trust this reporting. I certainly am considering closing down all my involvement with Amazon, but I've seen strong rebuttals (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/amazonians-response-inside-amazon-wrestli... here and elsewhere. Yes, I've seen affirmations that the culture is as described, but, the reporting in the NYT is just so one-sided I don't understand the agenda.
Another NYT criticism, I also question such savage reporting around white-collar workers who stand to gain fortunes to suck it up for a couple of years vs meek reporting around the conditions endured by salaried warehouse workers. Where is the 5000-plus comment opportunity there?
Another NYT criticism, I also question such savage reporting around white-collar workers who stand to gain fortunes to suck it up for a couple of years vs meek reporting around the conditions endured by salaried warehouse workers. Where is the 5000-plus comment opportunity there?
6
I agree on both counts. I think the article was very well done and don't really doubt its credibility. I am a little perplexed by the assertions all over the place that it's the article with "the most comments ever" etc. Speaking of abusing metrics ... this makes no sense in a system where the length of time the comments on an article remain open varies so widely and seemingly randomly. I don't really believe it's anything to do with whether the comments are largely positive or negative - I think it's probably many other factors, most of them idiosyncratic, like how much time the person in charge of moderating the comments has available for the task. Occasionally though, I do suspect they close because whoever was handling it got irritated.
But come on NYT, you can't leave the comments open for a WEEK and then run around saying "OMG most comments ever!!" - when other articles close the comments in 24 or 48 hours.
But come on NYT, you can't leave the comments open for a WEEK and then run around saying "OMG most comments ever!!" - when other articles close the comments in 24 or 48 hours.
9
For all of Mr. Bezos' efforts to make Amazon perfect, he is producing a system of sloth and waste. With everyone dancing as fast as he or she can, his kingdom is not about performance. Amazon does not get the simple stuff right.
Packaging? Sometimes Amazon gets it right, with a box the size of the item and suitable filler. Frequently the packaging will crush the spine of a cardboard box of CDs or a book will bang around, so that it arrives with its corners bent. It will replace damaged items, but there is no guarantee the packaging will be more secure. If you complain, the nice person in India will push a button and you will see the same apology you saw the last time.
The Amazon system has an algorithm that places reviews from one product to another. If one is looking for a specific recording of a symphony or opera, one is liable to encounter reviews from an unrelated recording. If one wants to know about a Kindle edition of a classic, one can wade through over a hundred reviews to find the specific one that deals with the download. Sometimes downloads are badly linked. One clicks on an annotated edition of a classic book and one is sent to a download of a cheap Dover edition. There are 3,456 reviews of a Kindle edition of Pride and Prejudice released last month, not one of which will tell the reader what she or he needs to know. I could go on, but there is a size limit for comments.
Packaging? Sometimes Amazon gets it right, with a box the size of the item and suitable filler. Frequently the packaging will crush the spine of a cardboard box of CDs or a book will bang around, so that it arrives with its corners bent. It will replace damaged items, but there is no guarantee the packaging will be more secure. If you complain, the nice person in India will push a button and you will see the same apology you saw the last time.
The Amazon system has an algorithm that places reviews from one product to another. If one is looking for a specific recording of a symphony or opera, one is liable to encounter reviews from an unrelated recording. If one wants to know about a Kindle edition of a classic, one can wade through over a hundred reviews to find the specific one that deals with the download. Sometimes downloads are badly linked. One clicks on an annotated edition of a classic book and one is sent to a download of a cheap Dover edition. There are 3,456 reviews of a Kindle edition of Pride and Prejudice released last month, not one of which will tell the reader what she or he needs to know. I could go on, but there is a size limit for comments.
5
I wanted to buy a certain best seller that came out in May. I used the title as my google search. Low and behold, I found the book at very reputable seller and it was $4.00 cheaper than at Amazon. Convinced me I don't need Amazon. But I still have a gift card credit at Amazon for $13. Gotta tell my kids not to get me those Amazon gift cards anymore.
6
Ach, yes! Just yesterday I received an Amazon gift card from a friend. I know that her life is entirely too stressed and busy to keep up on news to a great extent, so I do appreciate the gift, I'm just not certain what now to do with it. At the moment, I'm considering selling it on craigslist.
2
I recently visited my son in Seattle, where he has worked for Amazon for six years. I go every year. He came to the airport in the middle of the day to meet me. On the days he worked during my visit, he left for work about 9am, and was back by 6pm. Maybe he works for a different Amazon?
4
Here's a question: Can the Washington Post write about the fact that the Times wrote about Amazon and it produced this reaction?
3
About SeattleGuy: he posted his comments on August 15- I just counted 428 replies as of Aug 19/7 PM. But I think that yesterday/Aug 18-- at about comment #400--he posted a number of comments retracting his initial post, saying in effect that he should have read the article more carefully. Does any one else agree with that finding?
2
Didn't catch that but thanks for alerting us.
3
"Does any one else agree with that finding?"
Yes, I do agree. After reading more than 100 replies to SeattleGuy in 3 days, I happened to log in when a number of his replies-to-replies were posted; they explicitly backed from the statements in his original post. This makes me wonder what the point of that first post was.
Yes, I do agree. After reading more than 100 replies to SeattleGuy in 3 days, I happened to log in when a number of his replies-to-replies were posted; they explicitly backed from the statements in his original post. This makes me wonder what the point of that first post was.
1
I was interested in the parallels with the article in the Times on the following day about the culture of competition at elite law firms. Something that was clear in that article, which was not explicitly recognized in the article about Amazon, is how much this toxic competition is fueled by the extreme concentration of wealth in the hands of few people. Many ambitious, capable people feel there are only two outcomes in the workplace: great success and wealth or failure and economic struggle. Making more balanced choices for one's life feels like choosing to give up on financial security.
5
I don't doubt the veracity of the NYT reporting about Amazon's HR procedures and sad lapses in judgment on the part of some Amazon managers. As someone with experience in corporate America and the legal world, no surprises here. I just feel that the Times is experiencing a bit too much joy here, perhaps the lingering effect of Amazon's battle with publishers (and which found the NYT and Amazon on opposite sides).
1
This reminds me why I moved out of the US. I miss the country, but the work culture is ridiculous. I have a modest job, modest salary, modest sized-house and the time to pursue making an independent documentary film.
It is like the old joke, while others work to live, Americans live to work. I think this is a failure of imagination.
Incidentally, I work in a customer-oriented job.
It is like the old joke, while others work to live, Americans live to work. I think this is a failure of imagination.
Incidentally, I work in a customer-oriented job.
5
Years ago this kind of speed up and sweat shop approach was common in industrial work sites. The big news here is that we now see it in 'white collar' jobs as well (and not just in the financial and legal sectors). This will only end when Amazon workers at all level join unions and fight collectively for decent work conditions. Nothing surprising here.
35
Why are we surprised? Our culture seems to have sacrificed basic human values at the alter of greed and the need to "win" or "be the best." As many commentaries have noted, is getting a package a day earlier or a dollar cheaper the ultimate human value in the US?
17
Amazon is barely profitable and Wall St has been challenging Bezos about millions spent on his projects. Keeping base wages down and productivity up is essential to the business model so it stands to reason Amazon will have a lot of churn. People are willing to take a chance in the hope they will the "lottery"--Amazon stock. But Amazon can't pay too much out in stock, so they have to cut employees. Not too many can be allowed to win the lottery! We consumers benefit from Amazon's business model, but I don't think it is really sustainable. We may get free shipping, but believe me UPS is not shipping our stuff for free. And to get faster delivery times, Amazon has to build more bricks and mortar Distribution Centers. All this is really expensive. Maybe drones are the only way Amazon can make it work in the long run.
7
There have even been recent complaints that Amazon is getting preferential treatment from the USPS, shipping Amazon Priority packages ahead of those sent by everyone else.
http://www.ecommercebytes.com/C/abblog/blog.pl?/pl/2015/3/1426535245.html
Due to the closing of facilities (82 additional facilities alone in the *second* round this past January), those heavily involved in ecommerce have already been experiencing an increase in the time it takes for USPS in some areas of the country to deliver normal First Class packages as well as Priority, while the USPS website still lists the old estimated delivery schedules. Giving Amazon priority over the rest of us is making this already frustrating situation even worse than it already is. Elimination of an additional day or two for delivery and/or or a few extra dollars simply isn't worth the ripple effect it's causing throughout the entire system.
http://www.ecommercebytes.com/C/abblog/blog.pl?/pl/2015/3/1426535245.html
Due to the closing of facilities (82 additional facilities alone in the *second* round this past January), those heavily involved in ecommerce have already been experiencing an increase in the time it takes for USPS in some areas of the country to deliver normal First Class packages as well as Priority, while the USPS website still lists the old estimated delivery schedules. Giving Amazon priority over the rest of us is making this already frustrating situation even worse than it already is. Elimination of an additional day or two for delivery and/or or a few extra dollars simply isn't worth the ripple effect it's causing throughout the entire system.
1
I've been hearing about Amazon's work environment for years and this in depth reporting finally pushed me over the edge. This is a predatory company and along with Walmart, I'm no longer patronizing Amazon. I'm fed up with over the top unregulated capigtalism (intentional missplelling). Without the proper balance between the so-called free market and sensible regulations we will continue to get pushed around like pawns as our quality of living continues to decline.
23
It isn't new and it isn't just Amazon. My last workplace had it all: the pervasive scurrilous culture, invalidating all work and contributions by disregarding the data, with documentation supporting management's claims promised but never delivered, the inhuman policies with regard to illness
or a death in the family, and the PIP.
The PIP, in particular, is reserved for those hard working and dedicated employees that the institution wants to cut (while preserving the deadwood) but sadly has nothing to go on. Without any legal recourse for workers the company can say - and does - whatever they want. It is just as they would have it: the worker vs. the behemoth. Your work history is nonexistent.
"Who are you gonna believe?"
or a death in the family, and the PIP.
The PIP, in particular, is reserved for those hard working and dedicated employees that the institution wants to cut (while preserving the deadwood) but sadly has nothing to go on. Without any legal recourse for workers the company can say - and does - whatever they want. It is just as they would have it: the worker vs. the behemoth. Your work history is nonexistent.
"Who are you gonna believe?"
7
Without the internet, Amazon would not exist. So what's really to blame that a thing such as Amazon has become a modern-day institution for slavery of those of every color.
3
Thank you for using the word "slavery." The shadow of slavery, on which to a great extent this country was founded along with genocide of native people, is not so subtly carried forward to today as our inheritance.
6
I can honestly say I've never ordered from Amazon, and never will.
3
"Enslavement of workers," right, those who voluntarily apply to Amazon and go to work for it are certainly, clearly and positively enslaved. Anyone who works in the private sector is a slave. Only if you've worked for government or far-left non-profits -- bloodsuckers of taxpayer taxes -- are free and good. The New York Times long goal is getting Americans to hate "business" and love government. The cancellation of memberships, depreciation of hard work, drive, ambition and commercial success in this article is right on. But "We the People" love Amazon and this smear-piece will have no impact on its future: serving me will. Probably more people will cancel their subscriptions to the Hillary Clinton of newspapers: The NY Times!
5
When are going to stop reading the NYT? The truth bites, doesn't it!
7
"The New York Times long goal is getting Americans to hate "business" and love government. "
But even the government loving NYTs, that never met a tax that it did not want to increase or impose, has said on numerous occasions that "government is always inefficient and often corrupt".
But even the government loving NYTs, that never met a tax that it did not want to increase or impose, has said on numerous occasions that "government is always inefficient and often corrupt".
3
Big Business, through the Republican Party, has certainly made the elimination of unions in this country a national priority over the last forty years. The result has been the enslavement of workers who "voluntarily" apply for private sector non-union jobs, the only kind available to them. I can understand why Ted dislikes the NYTimes: its investigative reporting embarresses and enrages him.
7
To begin with, it's sort of funny to write a comment on an article about comments on another article. I guess there will be another article on these comments, right? Please quote me, I wanna be famous.
Going back to Amazon, the gentleman that said that a company is not a daycare for adults (which is correct) also mentioned that "America needs more companies like Amazon that demand more from employees and rewards them accordingly." I'm afraid the article makes it abundantly clear that Amazon does not "reward them accordingly." What's more, Amazon doesn't reward them at all: no free meals, no paternity leave, no free time, no vacations. The company is just telling "do your best to make us richer and get nothing in return" and everyone goes like "OK".
Going back to Amazon, the gentleman that said that a company is not a daycare for adults (which is correct) also mentioned that "America needs more companies like Amazon that demand more from employees and rewards them accordingly." I'm afraid the article makes it abundantly clear that Amazon does not "reward them accordingly." What's more, Amazon doesn't reward them at all: no free meals, no paternity leave, no free time, no vacations. The company is just telling "do your best to make us richer and get nothing in return" and everyone goes like "OK".
43
As a consumer, it is my RESPONSIBILITY not to purchase goods produced by slaves (Indonesia, fisheries), or sweatshops (India, textiles); and now unfortunately I face a choice regarding Amazon. Do I support the corporate "slave culture" at Amazon, which demands 80+ workweeks and breeds cut-throat employees...just so I can get my goodies in 2 days?
No. I too be cancel my Prime Membership, and will aggressively seek alternative sources for my purchasing.
No. I too be cancel my Prime Membership, and will aggressively seek alternative sources for my purchasing.
21
Hmm. I read an over-reaction in this response. Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps, but I think not. Call me clear-headed. Beware the righteous among us.
I am Dave from Seattle.
I am Dave from Seattle.
4
"I too be cancel my Prime Membership, and will aggressively seek alternative sources for my purchasing."
Finding alternate sources many be difficult if not impossible. In the case of the books I buy, Amazon offers by far the lowest prices and widest selection.
Finding alternate sources many be difficult if not impossible. In the case of the books I buy, Amazon offers by far the lowest prices and widest selection.
2
This isn't the same thing. Amazon white collar employees are highly educated and have a choice. They can choose to work for a different company and still earn a decent amount of money. For the slaves and sweatshops you talk about, their working and living conditions are terrible, but not as terrible as they would be if they didn't have that job. When you don't buy goods produced by them, they lose their jobs, and feeding their family becomes an insurmountable challenge.
1
HR does nothing. Hit the metrics by managing them out and drive accountability.
5
Isn't this the type of workplace people want these days? No one wants the old cradle-to-grave type corporations where they would have to deal with burdens such as red tape, boring chains of command, dull meetings, small but regular pay raises, etc . No, people today want small nimble companies as employers where they can wear whatever they want to work, work/life balance, ability to criticize openly ones peers and bosses, anything that can be described as cool. The workplace has changed but Wall Street has not. Short-term results still matter and companies will do what they can, including pushing employees to the wall, for good press and a good bottom line. Be careful what you ask for.
Bezos has been interviewed sufficiently that everyone knows or should know what type of person he is. Before anyone signed on for a cool job at Amazon, perhaps they should have asked themselves if they really wanted him as their ultimate boss.
Bezos has been interviewed sufficiently that everyone knows or should know what type of person he is. Before anyone signed on for a cool job at Amazon, perhaps they should have asked themselves if they really wanted him as their ultimate boss.
3
The New York Times investigative report on Amazon was brilliant and is still being talked about by my friends. Brilliant and surely necessary, just as the work of a Lincoln Steffens was brilliant and necessary. Workplace abuse must be exposed and fought.
25
I'll first take exception to the claim that “Sellers spend their lives in terror wondering when they will be next ones to get suspended over trumped up charges.” As an Amazon seller, I'm thrilled at the exceptional treatment I get, my ability to try selling art on Amazon without spending a dime unless it sells. Amazon is the most generous resource freelance artists and writers have ever had. I haven't spent one second "in terror." This comment, I'd guess, from someone trying to push the edges on Amazon content and afraid of getting caught.
Amazon has a very open, available appeal process and a forum full of veterans who will help if you get in trouble. The comment is completely untrue.
I have to add that Amazon has generously provided me a totally free platform for publishing a dozen books. Their templates and guidelines are extremely helpful. The simplicity of rolling over content to Kindle is breathtaking.
The Amazon article wasn't completely fair. The Public Editors observations yesterday were insightful. Many have speculated that the Times has thing for "getting" Amazon. The tone of the article does nothing to refute that claim, but I would add that this newspaper similarly delights in hammering Apple.
As the smarmy article notes with pride, the article has hurt Amazon. The writer here revels subtly in that achievement.
Amazon has a very open, available appeal process and a forum full of veterans who will help if you get in trouble. The comment is completely untrue.
I have to add that Amazon has generously provided me a totally free platform for publishing a dozen books. Their templates and guidelines are extremely helpful. The simplicity of rolling over content to Kindle is breathtaking.
The Amazon article wasn't completely fair. The Public Editors observations yesterday were insightful. Many have speculated that the Times has thing for "getting" Amazon. The tone of the article does nothing to refute that claim, but I would add that this newspaper similarly delights in hammering Apple.
As the smarmy article notes with pride, the article has hurt Amazon. The writer here revels subtly in that achievement.
5
Because it hasn't happened to you it hasn't happened at all? Or it's just to a vendor that somehow 'pushed the envelop'?!? Well, aren't you special.... Just because your product has not been suspended does not mean it hasn't happened to another vendor. Be thankful that a purchaser of your product has apparently not complained that it was "not what was expected" and subsequently returned it.
12
Seattle Guy's comments made my stomach turn. I have been boycotting Amazon since it started. Unfortunately, I have had to cross my own line when, for example, I found only on Amazon replacement heads for my electric toothbrush. Congratulations on your billions, Bezos.
2
The most glaring dichotomy in the ongoing discussion about Amazon is the fact that business media, and Amazon PR department in particular, keeps presenting/describing Amazon as a high-tech company yet in reality it is not! When I think of high-tech companies of the world, I immediately think of Apple, Google, Microsoft, Oracle etcetera! These are companies that have created and continue to create innovative products/services that have benefited mankind tremendously!
Simply put, Amazon is a brutally efficient online retailer, essentially an online clone of Walmart without the need for brick-and-mortar! Think of all the capital that Mr. Bezos has spent trying to emulate Mr. Jobs/Apple, yet all of his efforts have been in vain with clunkers like the Fire phone, which looks like a cell phone designed by a committee, without passion or vision!
In the end, each one of us has to make a determination as to the value of the so called culture of instant gratification! At what cost? Now that we have a peak behind the curtain of Amazon, we see the company for what it is and it is not pretty! Now that we see the human toll and ravage for this meaningless gratification, is it still worth it? I say not!! Recoup your community, and take time to walk to your nearest neighborhood store! Recapture the joy of communicating with fellow humans, browse, smile and relax with a cup or two of coffee or tea! Reclaim your humanity!
Simply put, Amazon is a brutally efficient online retailer, essentially an online clone of Walmart without the need for brick-and-mortar! Think of all the capital that Mr. Bezos has spent trying to emulate Mr. Jobs/Apple, yet all of his efforts have been in vain with clunkers like the Fire phone, which looks like a cell phone designed by a committee, without passion or vision!
In the end, each one of us has to make a determination as to the value of the so called culture of instant gratification! At what cost? Now that we have a peak behind the curtain of Amazon, we see the company for what it is and it is not pretty! Now that we see the human toll and ravage for this meaningless gratification, is it still worth it? I say not!! Recoup your community, and take time to walk to your nearest neighborhood store! Recapture the joy of communicating with fellow humans, browse, smile and relax with a cup or two of coffee or tea! Reclaim your humanity!
16
Actually, Amazon cloud services are one of the biggest profit sources for AMZN. And untangling the threads on that industry will also be very revealing and sobering. AS NPR reported yesterday, TASER, the company that started selling stun guns to police departments, now sells police departments on-body and on-dash video cameras, many of which are, or will soon become, mandatory. Think about the math of that: basically non-stop video from hundreds of thousands of police departments! The TASER footage is all stored on Amazon's cloud and that is where the economic logic is beyond staggering. We should be asking harder, more specific questions about who benefits most from police brutality. Amazon is one of the "winners." One of the many ugly things about all of this is how hidden that story remains. Yes, individual police officers have a lot to answer for, but the larger narrative of profit-taking needs much exposure.
2
A grandson worked in an dehumanizing Amazon warehouse during nighttime hours. His description was horrifying and he didn't last long. He had taken the job only because there are so few jobs available these days for 20 year olds. Amazon using kids desperate for jobs at the same time as our bridges and roads are falling into disrepair. Something is skewed in our values and in our country today.
57
The Amazon story from the NYT is just one in an army of stories I've encountered here in Seattle. Anonymous inside accounts, discussions I've had with former Amazon employees, and news reports--all point to the same conclusions in the latest NYT report, that it's an unbelievably awful place to work. As a result, I finally pulled all of my applications on their career site, and let them know why.
22
Having worked in the tech industry for 30 years, none of what has been revealed surprises me. Whether Bezos or the NYT is correctly representing Amazon, consumers need to be aware that working in the tech world is not easy money, and that companies that squeeze the profit margin to the bone, like WalMart or Amazon, and deliver cheap consumables, do so at a price that we pay for in other ways.
23
I spent four years working with BlackBerry in their supply chain. We used to joke that if you received an email on your BlackBerry and failed to answer it in a very timely manor that they thought perhaps you had passed away.
2
I did not read all the comments, obviously, about the article. Of the ones I did read, hardly any mentioned the rapacious consumerism that seems to driving the world economy, from electronic devices, to petroleum, to apparel, and to other goods. Does obtaining these things almost instantly really make our lives better? People seem to equate one-stop shopping, and its concomitant instant gratification, with a benefit to the society in which they happen to be living. Since when has this happened and why?
I am no Luddite, but I think not every society is going to benefit from this development in late-stage capitalism. A better outcome would be a sort of leveling out of the advantages of technology, and a more appropriate mix of truly useful products and what my father-in-law used to call the superfluous.
I am no Luddite, but I think not every society is going to benefit from this development in late-stage capitalism. A better outcome would be a sort of leveling out of the advantages of technology, and a more appropriate mix of truly useful products and what my father-in-law used to call the superfluous.
32
The "Readers" who are aghast at the impact of Amazon on the publishing world are a tiny group. I do not read books, I am a Prime buyer who uses the Pantry service, an Echo to reorder things and love Amazon. I shop Amazon FIRST and only buy local if it is worth the time to save one or two days. I worked in high tech for a while and the pressure for quarter on quarter growth drives everything, blame Wallstreet not Bezos.
4
Nah, Frank, I blame you and anyone else who is such a lousy neighbor. Figures that you don't read books.
36
Except that Amazon rarely makes a profit and exists only so that other companies can make a profit off an inefficient distribution system that runs only on the backs of overworked employees.
9
Kudos to the NYTimes for the article on Amazon work culture after interviewing over 100 people. Bezos came back quickly with his damage-control "Letter to Amazon Employees." If nothing else, maybe he will be shamed into doing something to mitigate the savage work culture which has trickled down below him at Amazon. Or at least, maybe the public exposure may give the troops something to rebel against themselves. Nobody's going to do anything to improve matters unless it comes from the grass roots, if not from the top down.
10
The article mentions the pro-Amazon comment by one "Seattle Guy" which, whether or not it actually was, looked very mujch like it might have been "planted", i.e., written and submitted by A's public realtions outfit. The article should have - but did not - mentioon that that his comment drew dozens of angry rebuttals, far more than I've ever seen on an NYT comment before.
18
Seattle Guy's premise; “Work is not daycare for adults. This country was not built on 40 hour work weeks and treating the office like a social club. America needs more companies like Amazon that demand more from employees and rewards them accordingly" is true. The country was not built on the 40 hour work week. It was built on; first, the genocide of native Americans, second, the slavery of African Americans, third, sweatshop conditions for children and the exploitation of immigrants, finally and the current modern enslavement of low wage workers.
Still, supposedly educated people are willing to subject themselves to the obvious maltreatment of workers at Amazon in hopes of catching the brass ring of a high wage tech job. If they knew anything about history they would recognize the scam for what it is. But, as W.C. Fields said, "Never give a sucker an even break" So I'll keep shopping (or just checking prices) at Amazon for the convenience it affords me and Amazon will keep churning employees until they wise up.
Still, supposedly educated people are willing to subject themselves to the obvious maltreatment of workers at Amazon in hopes of catching the brass ring of a high wage tech job. If they knew anything about history they would recognize the scam for what it is. But, as W.C. Fields said, "Never give a sucker an even break" So I'll keep shopping (or just checking prices) at Amazon for the convenience it affords me and Amazon will keep churning employees until they wise up.
3
There is nothing wrong with someone trying to be really successful. That drive brought Amazon to where it is now, and also made America successful. Now there is an alleged tide of exploitation. But let's not jump to conclusions too quickly. Let's wait for the tide to settle. The article (remember) is just one side of the story.
2
This NYT article is not the first to excoriate Amazon. It's merely one that criticizes its corporate culture. Others that shed light on their hideous labor practices in the fulfillment centers have been much more prolific, causing me to cease doing any business with Amazon years ago, as I also did with WalMart even longer ago. Yet those articles seem to have received less traction and reaction than this one regarding their white collar workers. I'm left to wonder why that is.
The gross and inhumane labor practices of overseas factories making everything from electronics to clothing for sale by both low end and top end American retailers were reported for a time and caused outrage because of deaths that mirrored the Triangle Shirtwaist factory decades ago. Yet sadly these practices are still apparently acceptable to a large portion of Americans who fail to be concerned about anyone but those of their own kind or class. Very sad commentary on the 'exceptionalism' of America, which not coincidentally mimics our foreign policy, merely paying lip service to democracy around the world.
Everyone on this planet requires meaningful work and fair wages. If all of the Americans so concerned about the export of jobs abroad really do want an even and equal playing field with foreign workers, then the only viable solution is to assure that fair and safe labor practices, as well as a fair and livable wage are the the norm globally.
The gross and inhumane labor practices of overseas factories making everything from electronics to clothing for sale by both low end and top end American retailers were reported for a time and caused outrage because of deaths that mirrored the Triangle Shirtwaist factory decades ago. Yet sadly these practices are still apparently acceptable to a large portion of Americans who fail to be concerned about anyone but those of their own kind or class. Very sad commentary on the 'exceptionalism' of America, which not coincidentally mimics our foreign policy, merely paying lip service to democracy around the world.
Everyone on this planet requires meaningful work and fair wages. If all of the Americans so concerned about the export of jobs abroad really do want an even and equal playing field with foreign workers, then the only viable solution is to assure that fair and safe labor practices, as well as a fair and livable wage are the the norm globally.
1
I am a loyal costumer of Amazon and love their efficiency and costumer support I received for many years ; I have always praised and recommended Amazon's services. I never once thought the always pleasant employees on the other end of the phone line were mistreated and or taken advantage of. I surely hope the business culture and behavior of some of management that were reported by the times article is limited to a few offices and not a company wide practice. I cannot in good conscious continue to support any institution or business that does this to their own.
6
I just want to say this, I work as an engineer in the Seattle area and have worked 30+ years at the same company. We company employs 2300 people total. We did over 7 million transactions last year and the majority of customers are return customers, many of them dealing with us for decades. We regularly tell new employees to pace themselves, we're here for the long haul.
I cannot for the life of me understand the logic behind the work environment at Amazon. It makes no sense and if this article doesn't shame them into doing a drastic internal inventory of employee relations it will be a sad day for my city, Seattle, just by association. We don't want no sweaty techie shops here.
Mr. Bezos do some soul searching and respond with kindness, pace yourself, remember the golden rule and do something nice for somebody and don't get caught. If you were one of my employees I would send you to charm school. And just like where I work, you get 3 chances at charm school and if you come back still lording your bad attitude over fellowemployees, you'll be shown the door. Life is short and work is something required for the American way of life, indifference can only be taken so far when someone's livelihood is at stake.
I cannot for the life of me understand the logic behind the work environment at Amazon. It makes no sense and if this article doesn't shame them into doing a drastic internal inventory of employee relations it will be a sad day for my city, Seattle, just by association. We don't want no sweaty techie shops here.
Mr. Bezos do some soul searching and respond with kindness, pace yourself, remember the golden rule and do something nice for somebody and don't get caught. If you were one of my employees I would send you to charm school. And just like where I work, you get 3 chances at charm school and if you come back still lording your bad attitude over fellowemployees, you'll be shown the door. Life is short and work is something required for the American way of life, indifference can only be taken so far when someone's livelihood is at stake.
41
As a customer for many online and brick&mortar retailers for over 30 years, I got my share of bad treatments, dishonest handling, and discriminatory practices from them and their employees because of what they think I am. All the tech companies I have worked for have pockets of even worse working environments and cultures yet I have done well because I have never expected fair treatment from them. It is a shame but US is still a great country in terms of how it treats its citizens and that shows in our productivity with respect to other countries.
It is well known that when you treat your employees badly, the abuse cycle starts, and they treat your customers badly. Yet Amazon and their employees have always treated me the same as other customers since the first year I ordered from them, 1999. That is all I wish for from any company.
I thank the company and its employees for making my life better since 1999. I will continue to support the company through continuing subscriptions of their Prime membership subscription and their other services; and my patterns of monthly purchases.
It is well known that when you treat your employees badly, the abuse cycle starts, and they treat your customers badly. Yet Amazon and their employees have always treated me the same as other customers since the first year I ordered from them, 1999. That is all I wish for from any company.
I thank the company and its employees for making my life better since 1999. I will continue to support the company through continuing subscriptions of their Prime membership subscription and their other services; and my patterns of monthly purchases.
1
Jeff Bezos' response to the revelations about the environment he created were pretty underwhelming--he promises a thorough review--"Let the damage control begin!!"--until we forget about the whole thing. We've all heard stories about how workers making iPhones in China have been driven to committing suicide over their insane lives, and what did Apple do? Promise to make more products in the US. Well, they make exactly one product here. If Amazon really turns things around, I'll come back as a customer, but until then, I will happily pay more at local stores where employees are treated with fairness and respect.
8
I have had mixed feelings about Amazon for awhile, and have tried to take my business elsewhere but always came back. After that excellent article, I decided this time I was not going to do "either/or." Instead, I am exiting Amazon piece by piece. I cancelled Audible, then Prime. I kept my account open but plan to use it barely at all. I searched out alternatives, and am experimenting with jet.com. I'm already moving my pet food delivery there. I sent Amazon an email explaining that they will be seeing far less of my money from now on. Eventually, I hope for it to be zero. Exploitation is not an attractive marketing plan. I hope more people vote with wallets. Thank you for the article.
21
I swore off Amazon some time ago. The reason was that I was beginning to take to heart the reports of Amazon's predatory behavior in the publishing world, plus what my eyes told me -- the rush to buy from Bezos was depriving our local brick-and-mortar stores of revenue, and too many were closing (a phenomenon not solely attributable to Amazon, of course, but Amazon has been a factor). The story of the neurotic environment in which Amazonians work, many displaying the infamous "Stockholm Syndrome" of identifying positively with the culture that imprisons them, is chilling and further confirms my resolution to steer clear of this Evil Empire.
46
Amazon was doing what Microsoft did years ago. they demanded the best and more from their employees. Work-life balance is not an issue. Going back to the days of Andrew Carneige- the steel magnate who founded U.S. Steel- extracting the maximum performance and productivity were his main concern. However, he did establish several major institutions such as Carniege foundation of Higher education, the Carniege Hall and the Carniege-Mellon University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Carniege_Mellon is a top school for engineering and robotics in America . it is also highly selective.
IMHO, Amazon is not the only organization where this type of abuse is rampant. Welcome to employment in modern day, dog-eat-dog America where most of the $$$ in profit go to the top 1%. Worker bees of the world, we need to find a way to fight for change together, because as things stand now, we are as powerless as those who lived through the years preceding the stock market crash and the Great Depression. Too much power in the hands of the few.
52
Agree wholeheartedly, and am thinking others are as well. Great post. What do you think about Bernie Sanders? That's my focus right now. Had a grandson in Amazon's night warehouse and heard how dehumanizing the job was. Had a writer friend refuse to give her book to Amazon to distribute as they cut her profits so severely, it wasn't worth it to her. Too much power in the hands of the few, indeed!
6
It wasn't too long ago that this article was written about that other retailing behemoth, Walmart. Locking in janitors at night. Battling low level employees over accident paid medical expenses. Low pay, use of temps to keep payroll low. Melissa is correct. Amazon is not unique. Sadly.
6
Melissa, we've already found a way...Our grandfathers found it years ago. A way to fight exploitation by management, to level the playing field in the work world. It's called Unions. Unions. Cue Joan Baez singing "joe Hill", or Johnny Paycheck singing "Take this Job and Shove It", or Pete Seeger belting out "Union Maid" or "Which Side Are You On?"
Generations before us paid in blood for the freedom to organize and to win a voice for American workers and over the past 35 years we have allowed the corporatocracy to erode the legacy they left us. If you don't want those sacrifices to be in vain, it's time to start reminding our politicians who REALLY owns this country. Remember, we're the 99%!
Generations before us paid in blood for the freedom to organize and to win a voice for American workers and over the past 35 years we have allowed the corporatocracy to erode the legacy they left us. If you don't want those sacrifices to be in vain, it's time to start reminding our politicians who REALLY owns this country. Remember, we're the 99%!
4
After I left MCI I was diagnosed with PTSD. The semi-annual layoffs and extreme work demands and misogynistic attitudes made it impossible for women to succeed and hold on to their dignity. I put in at least 80 hours per week and never once was I given the bonus allotted to my position while achieving Far Exceeds reviews. I did not even know that my position was eligible for a bonus because I had never received one.
The final straw was when the position above me was filled without ever being posted. I was told that if they wanted me in that chair I would be in that chair and that is all I needed to know.
I quit shortly after that and then Bernie Ebbers took over and the rest is history.
The final straw was when the position above me was filled without ever being posted. I was told that if they wanted me in that chair I would be in that chair and that is all I needed to know.
I quit shortly after that and then Bernie Ebbers took over and the rest is history.
22
It's a shame to see that a presumably high-minded, high-tech, high-profit post-brick/mortar company like Amazon isn't doing all the right things in terms of workplace environment (though, can you envision the corner-office meetings going on at this point, whew); however, please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe anybody's holding any guns to anybody's heads in terms of choosing to work there. The Great Recession is at least somewhat over; get on out there and look for something else even better, would seem to be the solution? I'd go small if I were you, lot more fun.
5
Try getting a job if you're 20, other than in an Amazon warehouse. What do you think this is? The USA in 1950?
5
I find the reaction to this fairly interesting. Everyone cares about Amazon's poor workers, but the little kids in sweatshops making everything else you buy, or the labor conditions in places that make your Apple products or Samsung phones or whatever are just not that important. I'm betting most these folks won't chuck their iPhone, but they'll cancel their Amazon Prime membership.
Amazon can have the workplace they want, as long as they don't violate the law. Now that you know what's involved, if you don't want to work there, given what they require, work somewhere else. You can't say you didn't know if you're going for a job there.
Companies don't HAVE to provide work/life balance. I'm not sure where this came from. The things that companies provide now--flexibility, etc. have to do with appeasing millennials. And the companies do it because they feel they have to in order to be competitive in hiring. Seems like Amazon knows what kind of workers they want and it's not people who worry about work/life balance. And if they don't feel it's causing them hiring issues to have that kind of workplace, then more power to them. Just because I wouldn't want to work there, doesn't mean no one would.
Amazon can have the workplace they want, as long as they don't violate the law. Now that you know what's involved, if you don't want to work there, given what they require, work somewhere else. You can't say you didn't know if you're going for a job there.
Companies don't HAVE to provide work/life balance. I'm not sure where this came from. The things that companies provide now--flexibility, etc. have to do with appeasing millennials. And the companies do it because they feel they have to in order to be competitive in hiring. Seems like Amazon knows what kind of workers they want and it's not people who worry about work/life balance. And if they don't feel it's causing them hiring issues to have that kind of workplace, then more power to them. Just because I wouldn't want to work there, doesn't mean no one would.
12
"As long as they don't violate the law"
Since there are barely any laws anymore, that protect employees, I guess you are perfectly happy with a slave holding society.
"Companies don't have to provide for work/balance".
You must be very young, so you missed all the labor reform movements of the last 100 years.
And obviously you have no family to take care of. Up until now children didn't raise themselves!
It is amazing that even worker slaves don't care anymore about their own and everybody else's emotional and physical health.
Since there are barely any laws anymore, that protect employees, I guess you are perfectly happy with a slave holding society.
"Companies don't have to provide for work/balance".
You must be very young, so you missed all the labor reform movements of the last 100 years.
And obviously you have no family to take care of. Up until now children didn't raise themselves!
It is amazing that even worker slaves don't care anymore about their own and everybody else's emotional and physical health.
12
Well, you don't get something for nothing-- somebody or everybody is going to get screwed. Let's ask the real questions about "value"-- what do we "value" and why. We might start making some very different choices about what we buy, where we work, how we live, and so forth. It doesn't take a phd in philosophy or economics to ask or answer these fundamental questions. It is time.
4
I've read the Times' article and listened to Jeff Bezos' refutation. I've never worked at Amazon and don't know anyone who has, so I don't take a position one way or the other on Amazon's corporate culture. It is disturbing, however, to see so many, many readers of the Times, who like me have no sure knowledge of the matter, are nevertheless willing to harshly condemn a successful company. Unlike these readers, I'm unwilling to drink the cool-aid offered by the Times.
4
Okay, I have an example for you. A young kid with 2 years of college works in an Amazon warehouse at night. Entering is like entering an airport, with detectors checking for contraband, you are monitored electronically as you work, and essentially talk with no one but rush to shelve, pack, distribute and work as fast as you can. Besides the continuous electronic monitoring, and timing as you work you are re checked as you leave, for contraband. All in the nighttime. I'm sure my grandson could be more specific, but that's an overview. Some cool-aid!
6
I know many of you are canceling your subscriptions to Amazon Prime in disgust. That's fine but you also may be costing people jobs who really want and need them. They may not have a problem with the work environment and may enjoy being able to provide for their families. I wish that viewpoint had been considered a bit more fairly in the article.
I am sure many of the NY Times journalists have to stay up late, miss family time, and deal with stress to meet deadlines. I won't be canceling my subscription, though. Do you think the Times stayed alive in this digital age by creating a relaxed and friendly workplace?
Also, why hasn't the NY Times mentioned that Bezos owns the Washington Post? He bought the company in 2013. The Post is a competitor of the NY Times. That is a conflict of interest. Full disclosure please.
I am sure many of the NY Times journalists have to stay up late, miss family time, and deal with stress to meet deadlines. I won't be canceling my subscription, though. Do you think the Times stayed alive in this digital age by creating a relaxed and friendly workplace?
Also, why hasn't the NY Times mentioned that Bezos owns the Washington Post? He bought the company in 2013. The Post is a competitor of the NY Times. That is a conflict of interest. Full disclosure please.
9
The NY Times article does mention that Bezos owns the Washington Post.
Read the article.
Read the article.
8
By that logic, no news outlet but the Washington Post can cover a story concerning Bezos or Amazon. I do not think the term "conflict of interest " means what you think it means.
7
If I remember correctly, Bezos bought the Washington Post with his personal money, therefore the Post is NOT part of Amazon, the corporation. I don't know if this requires full disclosure as NYT is just reporting on Amazon, the corporation. But I do like the appropriate full disclosure generally speaking.
I stopped buying from Amazon.com years ago because I hate to see Borders, my favorite store which was within walking distance from my home, was ruined by Amazon, without knowing what's being reported in the article by NY Times published on Aug 15, 2015.
Let's support innovative, decent and reasonable American corporations with our wallets, not those treating employees badly and inhumanely. Let's keep American workforce healthy and competitive.
Thank you NYT for this and the original great articles!
Keep up the excellent journalism and this is the reason I subscribe to NYTimes!
Bravo!
I stopped buying from Amazon.com years ago because I hate to see Borders, my favorite store which was within walking distance from my home, was ruined by Amazon, without knowing what's being reported in the article by NY Times published on Aug 15, 2015.
Let's support innovative, decent and reasonable American corporations with our wallets, not those treating employees badly and inhumanely. Let's keep American workforce healthy and competitive.
Thank you NYT for this and the original great articles!
Keep up the excellent journalism and this is the reason I subscribe to NYTimes!
Bravo!
5
Those who are coming to Amazon's defense - like AR Clayboy - appear to be preaching a free-market-at-any-cost approach to the economy. We already know that this DOES NOT WORK - hence the need for child labor laws and minimum wage requirements. Without regulations on how workers are treated, unbridled capitalism will use people up like so many cogs.
Amazon needs unionization in the worst way - and we need labor laws that prohibit this kind of work environment. But the Right has, bizarrely, convinced those who could benefit from unions (as well as an increased minimum wage and other labor laws) the most that unions and ANY government regulation are some kind of socialist/communist plot. The Right is very good at twisting facts and convincing people to support politicians and movements that are against workers' best interests...
Amazon needs unionization in the worst way - and we need labor laws that prohibit this kind of work environment. But the Right has, bizarrely, convinced those who could benefit from unions (as well as an increased minimum wage and other labor laws) the most that unions and ANY government regulation are some kind of socialist/communist plot. The Right is very good at twisting facts and convincing people to support politicians and movements that are against workers' best interests...
82
There's a time-tested method to give more control and clout to the needs and wishes of workers.
One that was used to make improvements in the lives of millions of middle class Americans and their families.
One that raised living standards for several generations of American workers and the families they raised. Families in decent housing, in decent neighborhoods with good public schools paid for by fairly taxing community members who were making a decent wage. An investment in American children which was naturally seen as prudent.
One that persists in other industrialized nations with innovative ideas that allow worker input on company decisions, benefiting the mutual interests of labor and ownership - pulling together to sustain the betterment of the company.
One that Ronald Reagan viewed as an unalienable measure of human freedom when he supported "Solidarity" - the Polish workers collective which defied Soviet control.
One responsible for countless improvements in our work lives which we take for granted - "have a nice weekend!"
It is called UNION.
And if Amazon had a modern, well run version this article would never be needed.
Why do we forgot that?
One that was used to make improvements in the lives of millions of middle class Americans and their families.
One that raised living standards for several generations of American workers and the families they raised. Families in decent housing, in decent neighborhoods with good public schools paid for by fairly taxing community members who were making a decent wage. An investment in American children which was naturally seen as prudent.
One that persists in other industrialized nations with innovative ideas that allow worker input on company decisions, benefiting the mutual interests of labor and ownership - pulling together to sustain the betterment of the company.
One that Ronald Reagan viewed as an unalienable measure of human freedom when he supported "Solidarity" - the Polish workers collective which defied Soviet control.
One responsible for countless improvements in our work lives which we take for granted - "have a nice weekend!"
It is called UNION.
And if Amazon had a modern, well run version this article would never be needed.
Why do we forgot that?
131
It is surprising to see Reagan listed as a champion of unions given that he either started or accelerated the long-running anti-union trend by breaking the air traffic controllers union.
1
Ronald Reagan thought so highly of unions that he destroyed PATCO when they went on strike and that has been the start of the de-unionization of America.
1
Totally agree on importance of Unions - but most of the Pennsylvania warehouse workers were contractors - employees of another company without any rights. They would have a very difficult time gaining leverage because they were often fired to keep them from becoming employees or gaining more benefits. Amazon should have the balls to HIRE those who work for it. Not farm it out to avoid getting its hands dirty.
2
I have put Amazon next to WalMart as another company I will not patronize because of the way they treat their employees and suppliers.
Remember: There's nothing at AMazon or WalMart you need or can;t get somewhere else for the same price.
Remember: There's nothing at AMazon or WalMart you need or can;t get somewhere else for the same price.
84
The deluge of comments on the Amazon article reflects a new reality in America: at a time when the global economy is becoming more competitive, some substantial number of Americans resent being forced to compete. We see it in our education system and the way we raise our children. We see it in our businesses in the attitude and work ethic of our employees. We see it in our culture, where we salute the odd, dysfunctional and disaffected, while lampooning mainstream culture and behavior. We see it in our politics, where politicians on both sides thrive on giving away other people's money and one party has mastered "its not your fault and we will protect you" as its sole policy prescription. Americans now believe that competition just makes things too uncomfortable and harsh. Fairness is sharing benefits without regard to who creates them.
Competition was once an American value, embedded in the freedoms upon which our company was founded. Unfortunately, freedom is a two-sided coin: freedom to succeed; freedom to fail. Americans today would rather surrender their freedom than face the prospect of succeeding or failing on their own merit. I teach at a major university, and it is sad to see young people so thoroughly indoctrinated in that mentality. It's even sadder to know that while our entire culture is rejecting competition, the rest of the world is embracing it. Who, then, do you think will win the future?
Competition was once an American value, embedded in the freedoms upon which our company was founded. Unfortunately, freedom is a two-sided coin: freedom to succeed; freedom to fail. Americans today would rather surrender their freedom than face the prospect of succeeding or failing on their own merit. I teach at a major university, and it is sad to see young people so thoroughly indoctrinated in that mentality. It's even sadder to know that while our entire culture is rejecting competition, the rest of the world is embracing it. Who, then, do you think will win the future?
4
People bring up the so-called global "competition" a lot around matters like these, but I am skeptical that brutal, dehumanizing, and malignant corporate cultures are required for a business to be successful in this world, any more than a large metropolis needs more gang violence to weed out the weak in order to be a successful city. It sounds an awful lot like a false dichotomy.
35
Much of the civilized world still has strong worker protection and high union participation.
And they compete well. As do we.
If you want Americans to compete with the uncivilized world like China then we are doomed to their existence of little control over our lives - economically and politically. And when there are big explosions…oh well!!
Is that your longing?
Let's do things with an American method that lifts the decency of people's lives and recognizes the worth of each person. That's why the nation was conceived in the first place.
Or have you forgotten?
And they compete well. As do we.
If you want Americans to compete with the uncivilized world like China then we are doomed to their existence of little control over our lives - economically and politically. And when there are big explosions…oh well!!
Is that your longing?
Let's do things with an American method that lifts the decency of people's lives and recognizes the worth of each person. That's why the nation was conceived in the first place.
Or have you forgotten?
45
This libertarian-dystopian "freedom" means slavery for the working class.
Or are we really to believe that all individuals can equally become successful capitalists? Of course not; such a result is impossible; it would end capitalism.
Consequentially, most MUST "lose" for the capitalist system to "work". There are innumerable ways to ensure this for the majority as the only real possible result. That's the dirty little secret the above writer doesn't wish to discuss.
One more thing: "America"s virtue" was founded on the super-exploitation of Black slaves, to pick cotton for England's "industrial revolution". That's how the U.S.A. made its first "nut" in the world economy.
Or are we really to believe that all individuals can equally become successful capitalists? Of course not; such a result is impossible; it would end capitalism.
Consequentially, most MUST "lose" for the capitalist system to "work". There are innumerable ways to ensure this for the majority as the only real possible result. That's the dirty little secret the above writer doesn't wish to discuss.
One more thing: "America"s virtue" was founded on the super-exploitation of Black slaves, to pick cotton for England's "industrial revolution". That's how the U.S.A. made its first "nut" in the world economy.
17
Missed the original article due to illness, but will now examine the ways that I can sever my relationships with Amazon altogether if I can.
6
Ways to sever the relationship? Just don't order from them anymore.
I have one thing on back order, a title not yet published. I'm not canceling it, but I won't order from them after that. I'm no great loss - I just checked, I've ordered from them 9 times in 6 months, very small purchases - but multiply me by who knows how many who read the article and were forced to look at what we kind of already knew but preferred not to think about - and just maybe Bezos will conclude he's losing money and needs to concede to some of the needs of the ordinary mass of humanity who work for him (simple souls that they are, not smart dudes like him).
I have one thing on back order, a title not yet published. I'm not canceling it, but I won't order from them after that. I'm no great loss - I just checked, I've ordered from them 9 times in 6 months, very small purchases - but multiply me by who knows how many who read the article and were forced to look at what we kind of already knew but preferred not to think about - and just maybe Bezos will conclude he's losing money and needs to concede to some of the needs of the ordinary mass of humanity who work for him (simple souls that they are, not smart dudes like him).
3
Yes, you can!
I have not bought anything from either Amazon or WalMart for years for they destroyed manufacturing in this country and ruined brick-&-mortar bookstores in our community.
For books, I go to Barnes & Noble stores or BN.com; for other things, you have tons of other stores and their websites. Choices galore!
And here is the link to the original article in NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big...®ion=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine
I have not bought anything from either Amazon or WalMart for years for they destroyed manufacturing in this country and ruined brick-&-mortar bookstores in our community.
For books, I go to Barnes & Noble stores or BN.com; for other things, you have tons of other stores and their websites. Choices galore!
And here is the link to the original article in NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/technology/inside-amazon-wrestling-big...®ion=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine
1
something funny in the fervor...like it was a discovery of a new element.
while the amazon instance, if it matches the reporting and the reaction, may be especially vivid, the level of disregard for the labor of those who labor by those who require labor (treating it and its providers as expendable supplies) is as widespread as the american anti-social form of capitalism itself...generally, there is no minimum ethic concerning the welfare of the workforce, there is first and foremost, the bottom line...the few exceptions both prove the rule and offer models for a better future to employers/
corporations willing to try and, more important,
any of our electeds in washington actually concerned with promoting "the general Welfare."
while the amazon instance, if it matches the reporting and the reaction, may be especially vivid, the level of disregard for the labor of those who labor by those who require labor (treating it and its providers as expendable supplies) is as widespread as the american anti-social form of capitalism itself...generally, there is no minimum ethic concerning the welfare of the workforce, there is first and foremost, the bottom line...the few exceptions both prove the rule and offer models for a better future to employers/
corporations willing to try and, more important,
any of our electeds in washington actually concerned with promoting "the general Welfare."
11
With labor unions a thing of the past the only way to temporize these out-of-control moguls is to boycott their products and services, no matter how tempting or "efficient" they are. I think of it as "demand side" strikes.
It's another issue to allow someone like Bezos to own a national newspaper of record like the Washington Post. That will need laws like the old FCC rules that used to protect against media concentration.
It's another issue to allow someone like Bezos to own a national newspaper of record like the Washington Post. That will need laws like the old FCC rules that used to protect against media concentration.
38
Intel and Cisco cultures are no less than Amazon, if you are with these companies for more than 7 years and over 45 yrs in age and the boss who hired you left the organization, this employee despite good performance will be subjectively performance managed (unless the employee can kiss a&&) and make the employee leave or will be laid off in the next round of layoff.
13
I’m 100% positive that Mr Bezos' organization strives to be a good employer.
So, some in supervisory positions exhibit less than gentle behaviors toward subordinates, regardless of the company training and policies. Team members reporting on other team members. Send an email to Mr Bezos on someone displaying poor behavior. Give me a break. Nothing new here. This is corporate America, folks. Mr Bezos writes: “You are recruited every day by other world-class companies, and you can work anywhere you want.”, which could also mean “if you don’t like it here, you can always find another, more suitable job” elsewhere.
So, some in supervisory positions exhibit less than gentle behaviors toward subordinates, regardless of the company training and policies. Team members reporting on other team members. Send an email to Mr Bezos on someone displaying poor behavior. Give me a break. Nothing new here. This is corporate America, folks. Mr Bezos writes: “You are recruited every day by other world-class companies, and you can work anywhere you want.”, which could also mean “if you don’t like it here, you can always find another, more suitable job” elsewhere.
3
Less than gentle? You must be kidding!
The Times report on Amazon literally hit America like a mighty clap of thunder. Rarely do the inner workings of any American corporation get covered by major news outlets. For one thing, it is not easy to bite the hand that feeds. It is notable that Amazon is something of the anti-corporate power in this regard: it doesn't need to advertise, it doesn't (they thought) need the NY Times and, after all, its owner also owns the Washington Post, another major player in east coast media.
The work culture at Amazon deserves follow-up coverage by the Times and other major media. Others, however, would be reluctant to follow the Times because, now, the Times seems to own this story. The Los Angeles Times ran a story a couple of days after the Times piece first appeared in which an opinion writer asked whether he should ever shop at Amazon again, a question on the minds of millions.
The underlying fact is that we are almost powerless to deal with these major corporations, like Amazon and Walmart. They do whatever they want to do, they accept and brush off our scorn and they go on to the next quarterly earnings report. It would take a massive boycott by citizens to have any but the smallest impact on Amazon or any others. Many are aware of what Walmart does to its employees and won't shop there.Besides, the stores are ugly and soulless. Walmart rolls on.
We are imprisoned by a passive consumer culture and disorganized, too, while Amazon is super organized and highly goal directed.
The work culture at Amazon deserves follow-up coverage by the Times and other major media. Others, however, would be reluctant to follow the Times because, now, the Times seems to own this story. The Los Angeles Times ran a story a couple of days after the Times piece first appeared in which an opinion writer asked whether he should ever shop at Amazon again, a question on the minds of millions.
The underlying fact is that we are almost powerless to deal with these major corporations, like Amazon and Walmart. They do whatever they want to do, they accept and brush off our scorn and they go on to the next quarterly earnings report. It would take a massive boycott by citizens to have any but the smallest impact on Amazon or any others. Many are aware of what Walmart does to its employees and won't shop there.Besides, the stores are ugly and soulless. Walmart rolls on.
We are imprisoned by a passive consumer culture and disorganized, too, while Amazon is super organized and highly goal directed.
43
Don't shop there! How hard is that?
2
If I vow not to shop at Amazon or Walmart, it means nothing. If 10,000 take that vow, it means very little. If 10 million do so and carry out their promise immediately or for a specified period of time, the corporate powers have to pay attention.
We have thousands of organizations in America and we meet in thousands of gatherings and conventions, but we don't like to follow leaders and we don't like to change our ways. We are powerful. We are strong. We are collectively rich and most of us have what I call linear wealth, that is, we are wealthy over the course of our lifetimes by virtue of earnings (this wealth is consistently pecked away at with monthly payments, so we don't feel wealthy at all).
We choose not to use our power and influence, however. We choose not to act in common for what we think might be the good of all. We choose to sit alone, at home, watching cable television, tending our kids, and whatever else we do in the evenings and weekends. We choose to be powerless in the face of those whose entire existence is organized around getting power and money for themselves and their shareholders.
It is not difficult. We just don't do it.
We have thousands of organizations in America and we meet in thousands of gatherings and conventions, but we don't like to follow leaders and we don't like to change our ways. We are powerful. We are strong. We are collectively rich and most of us have what I call linear wealth, that is, we are wealthy over the course of our lifetimes by virtue of earnings (this wealth is consistently pecked away at with monthly payments, so we don't feel wealthy at all).
We choose not to use our power and influence, however. We choose not to act in common for what we think might be the good of all. We choose to sit alone, at home, watching cable television, tending our kids, and whatever else we do in the evenings and weekends. We choose to be powerless in the face of those whose entire existence is organized around getting power and money for themselves and their shareholders.
It is not difficult. We just don't do it.
3
one dissatisfied customer at a time....there are options....and one might have to pay a little more for the product.....but amazon is almost never the only online retailer to sell a product.....pay a dollar more....wait an extra day.....and maybe if enough people do this bezos will get the message and make some changes
4
Reading about the Amazon workplace reminded me of the movie "Modern Times", where Chaplin played an industrial worker drone. While there was humor aplenty thanks to the Chaplin genius, the film was also prescient. Have we really come that far when our business religion continues to find new ways to dehumanize in altogether unimagined ways?
9
When did these people realize that the race to the bottom has it's unfortunate downsides? You can say the same for any of the "successful" retailers, online or brick & mortar, who treat their customers better than their employees simply because there are weak or non-existent work protections. It's been the norm since Reagan fired the air traffic controllers and the war on low- and mid-level worker was on. Should we feel guilty for patronizing these union-busting retailers? Of course. Will we stop? As many of the comments suggest, some long time customers will stay away (but for how long?) while others will wave away their consciences and just accept the fact that in this global economy, it's a dog-eat-dog world so get used to it. Truly sad that so many customers don't think about the long-term consequences of the robotization of our workplaces and the inhuman and unrealistic goals placed on today's average employees. Good luck trying to turn things around until they lose a lot more customers than perceived in the article/comments.
10
Jeff Bezos has encouraged employees to report “callous” management practices. I hope these employees understand that if they do so, they will be immediately fired or sanctioned in some way.
19
How is Amazon not in violation of state or federal labor laws governing hours, overtime, etc.? Certainly all of these employees cannot truly be time report exempt.
16
No one forces anyone to work at Amazon.
If you don't like working at Amazon, quit. Duh.
If you don't like shopping at Amazon, quit. Duh.
Agree with JPG that we need unions. Sad how easily the Republicans convinced the gullible that unions are bad.
If you don't like working at Amazon, quit. Duh.
If you don't like shopping at Amazon, quit. Duh.
Agree with JPG that we need unions. Sad how easily the Republicans convinced the gullible that unions are bad.
21
What is the work environment like in The Times office "moderating" some 6,000 comments over the last couple of days? Or for that matter how has the work environment been over the last couple of years marked by considerable changes in staff? Not much time for family, I bet. Perhaps a bit like Amazon? Look around . . . it's the new, highly competitive work environment, and it's moving into every business.
2
To Seattle guy, this country as we know it, with its broad prosperity was built by the fortuitous possession of great agricultural lands, abundant sources of energy, abundant sources of natural resources and the postwar redistributive wages and easy access to education. Before our commitment to real democracy, unions and higher tax rates we were much like Argentina in the 1920's, they chose a different path. It wasn't worker exploitation, it was fairness that helped build this country.
31
And let's not forget the enslaved people who toiled for 250 years under unspeakable conditions.
Reading the original articles regarding working conditions of both the white collar and blue collar workers at Amazon I was appalled but not surprised. Both reminded me of the last job I had. When I was fired it felt like a 10lb weight was lifted off me. My friends could not believe how happy I was. I could have fought and gotten my job back but the company did me the greatest favor by their actions. I've learned later in life that no amount of money and prestige is worth working in such toxic working conditions.
The workers I really feel sorry for are those who work in the warehouse. Unlike the white collar employees they are working paycheck to paycheck with no job security and horrific working conditions. I doubt whether those hired through the temp agency have any health benefits. These people need to unionize. Sadly given the current atmosphere it's not going to happen.
Amazon is just a slicked up version of Walmart.
The workers I really feel sorry for are those who work in the warehouse. Unlike the white collar employees they are working paycheck to paycheck with no job security and horrific working conditions. I doubt whether those hired through the temp agency have any health benefits. These people need to unionize. Sadly given the current atmosphere it's not going to happen.
Amazon is just a slicked up version of Walmart.
55
You are correct...Amazon is a slicked up version of Walmart...grotesque isn't it? People are working to meet performance objective only to find out they're really aren't any while the CEO is in the parking lot playing with toy drones...insane.
4
Kinda sounds like a high tech version of how Walmart treats it's workers. As labor becomes more of a commodity expect harsher and harsher work environments. The right has carefully and successfully demonized and de-clawed the unions with, surprisingly, many middle or lower middle class workers. Koch's strike again!
22
After reading the article, I stopped shopping at Amazon. Not like it's any kind of a boycott, I was just turned off, like seeing flies in a restaurant.
There's lots of other places where you can find the same stuff at the same price.
How does eBay treat its employees? Barnes & Noble?
There's lots of other places where you can find the same stuff at the same price.
How does eBay treat its employees? Barnes & Noble?
9
Human beings make choices. If Amazon employees don't like their jobs, they should choose a different company.
1
Likewise, when consumers are informed they can make a rational economic choice not to patronize businesses that treat their employees like dirt.
The free market works in that regard just as well.
The free market works in that regard just as well.
2
As an experiment, the day before yesterday I ordered a book directly from Oxford University Press, rather than go through Amazon.co.uk. It only took a couple of minutes to register and place my order, which is reportedly already on its way to Germany. I have no idea what conditions are like at OUP, but it's hard to imagine they're as nasty as at Amazon.
29
Long time I lost the credibility on Amazon and Mr. Bezos.
All this is just the result of the more refine kind of capitalism.
How many other companies and corporations do the same?
Don't respect moral values, and don't care for their workers or families.
Just take a look around.
All this is just the result of the more refine kind of capitalism.
How many other companies and corporations do the same?
Don't respect moral values, and don't care for their workers or families.
Just take a look around.
5
"Readers working in the technology field recognized Amazon’s bruising and thrilling environment as standard practice." Well well. I worked for Lockheed Martin and I contributed to spacecraft design; my software was tested on orbit, and I directly contributed to the exploration of Titan, Jupiter's moon. What could be more thrilling than that?
What was my workweek? It averaged about 41 to 43 hours a week over 15 years. There were a few 70 hour work weeks, but most every week was just 40 hours. Same at MIT Lincoln Labs, where we developed advanced radar.
What was my workweek? It averaged about 41 to 43 hours a week over 15 years. There were a few 70 hour work weeks, but most every week was just 40 hours. Same at MIT Lincoln Labs, where we developed advanced radar.
116
Tita is a moon of Saturn. I hope you took that into account when you were working on the project.
I had the privilege of working with a large Class A construction company here in the Sonoran Desert that worked with a philosophy exactly opposite of Bezos.
Their company motto and painted on the back of all their trucks were two words. Character Matters.
And they didn't just say the words, they lived it.
Their company motto and painted on the back of all their trucks were two words. Character Matters.
And they didn't just say the words, they lived it.
29
The photo of Jeff Bezos here neglected to point out that Mr. Bezos is also the owner of the Washington Post, a major competitor to the New York Times.
3
The article clearly points out the Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post. Not sure the photo needs to as well.
2
I am 63 and happily retired. I cannot imagine a workplace as described in the recent Amazon article. Work life balance is important and it should be modeled from the top down. On your death bed it is the rare person who says, " gee I wish I had spent more time at the office". 80 hour work weeks cannot be healthy for anyone, anywhere. Especially when the goal is to ship toilet paper faster.
Performance evaluations should be done by managers and supervisors familiar with the subordinates work not summarized from a bee hive of anonymous comments from other employees.
Jeff Bezos is just another greedy, competitive, self involved, CEO who really needs to get in touch with the grotesque work place he has created. No one I know would ever want to make a career there...no one.
Performance evaluations should be done by managers and supervisors familiar with the subordinates work not summarized from a bee hive of anonymous comments from other employees.
Jeff Bezos is just another greedy, competitive, self involved, CEO who really needs to get in touch with the grotesque work place he has created. No one I know would ever want to make a career there...no one.
57
I believe a distinction should be made here. As a former Amazonian on the warehouse side I know nothing about the Seattle culture as this was not within my experience. It seems that both the original New York Times article as well as the Bezos recommended LinkedIn profile refuting the NYT story view Amazon as a singular experience. The experiences of a newly hired warehouse associate cannot be lumped in with programmers in Seattle. The debate becomes clouded when distinctions aren't made.
1
My friend, who is the founder of IScribe, said the article was picked up in the Belgium paper today and a "hot" debate amongst his European Tech friends.
11
And it's been the most commented on article in my non-
Amazon workplace. Wow.
Amazon workplace. Wow.
3
New York Times did an excellent job in reporting Amazon story.
15
I have read most of the comments over the past three days.
Another meaning to be taken from the 6600 comments is that this report evoked several categories of responders:
1. what is called abuse is really just dedication to the work; it is inevitable in modern, cutting-edge companies and it is naive/ un-competetive/weak to complain;
2. It is exhilarating to perform under these conditions and this feeling of exhilaration demonstrates how exciting/alluring/seductive it is to be labeled by management as belonging to the best/smartest/ most dedicated collection of employees;
3. making the work place more and more efficient is clearly desired by the customer; a worker can always leave if they have a problem with the pace;
4. abuse is abhorrent whether one participates actively, as a by-stander, as a customer/enabler or as a person who consented to it;
5. Abuse is real even if some correspondents say they didn't/ do not experience it;
6.Abuse causes lasting psychological and physical damage, even a year or more after leaving Amazon.
To which I add- There really are no logical limitations on the applications of these work practices in any work place-- from the factory to the hospital to the university. If human decency does not limit these practices of spying, recrimination, 24 hour responsiveness to work issues, then, except for Jeff Bezos and 200 other billionaires, all will be serfs once again.
Another meaning to be taken from the 6600 comments is that this report evoked several categories of responders:
1. what is called abuse is really just dedication to the work; it is inevitable in modern, cutting-edge companies and it is naive/ un-competetive/weak to complain;
2. It is exhilarating to perform under these conditions and this feeling of exhilaration demonstrates how exciting/alluring/seductive it is to be labeled by management as belonging to the best/smartest/ most dedicated collection of employees;
3. making the work place more and more efficient is clearly desired by the customer; a worker can always leave if they have a problem with the pace;
4. abuse is abhorrent whether one participates actively, as a by-stander, as a customer/enabler or as a person who consented to it;
5. Abuse is real even if some correspondents say they didn't/ do not experience it;
6.Abuse causes lasting psychological and physical damage, even a year or more after leaving Amazon.
To which I add- There really are no logical limitations on the applications of these work practices in any work place-- from the factory to the hospital to the university. If human decency does not limit these practices of spying, recrimination, 24 hour responsiveness to work issues, then, except for Jeff Bezos and 200 other billionaires, all will be serfs once again.
20
Lord of the Flies. I'm canceling my Prime account and doing business elsewhere.
16
How well compensated are the employees? I know of employees of law and financial firms willing to stick it out because of the pay. If the pay is not good nor are leave benefits allowed to be used, quit. Really. As heartless as it may sound. you are not forced to work there.
1
I already canceled my amazon account and their credit card.
7
I was a long time buyer of music on Amazon. I stopped awhile prior to this article because I was able to purchase the same music from a local small business that specializes in vinyl and CD's.
Sure, I don't get the music instantly, but knowing that I'm supporting a local business, just means that instead of downloading the album at Midnight from Amazon, I drive over at lunch the following day.
The aspect of this I've enjoyed is that the store is now a destination and I've gotten to know and trust the people there. The owners are very nice, very knowledgeable, and they know my taste. They have yet to recommend something to me that I haven't liked.
They treat their five employees very well, and I know that because they have all been with them for over five years, with two, having been there since the store opened back in the mid 90's.
Also, the Internet is vast, many record labels or authors let you buy direct from their sites. Typically that allows the money to stay with the artists and bypass the middle men, like Amazon.
The Internet was originally going to stop an entity like Amazon, from interfering with commerce. I know I just got lazy. So instead of going to an artist site which may require a few extra clicks, I succumbed to a few less clicks.
I think the extra clicks or short walk or drive to a local retailer is the best defense of getting sucked into the void of a soulless, a logarithm driven company.
Sure, I don't get the music instantly, but knowing that I'm supporting a local business, just means that instead of downloading the album at Midnight from Amazon, I drive over at lunch the following day.
The aspect of this I've enjoyed is that the store is now a destination and I've gotten to know and trust the people there. The owners are very nice, very knowledgeable, and they know my taste. They have yet to recommend something to me that I haven't liked.
They treat their five employees very well, and I know that because they have all been with them for over five years, with two, having been there since the store opened back in the mid 90's.
Also, the Internet is vast, many record labels or authors let you buy direct from their sites. Typically that allows the money to stay with the artists and bypass the middle men, like Amazon.
The Internet was originally going to stop an entity like Amazon, from interfering with commerce. I know I just got lazy. So instead of going to an artist site which may require a few extra clicks, I succumbed to a few less clicks.
I think the extra clicks or short walk or drive to a local retailer is the best defense of getting sucked into the void of a soulless, a logarithm driven company.
19
I don't understand why this says the original article has 6600 comments. As of this writing, there are 5535. And while obviously the story generated a lot of interest, it has so many comments because the comments section has been left open for days, much longer than for most articles.
3
The original article is an important piece of journalism that reminds consumers of work conditions / workplace standard in America, and I'm glad NYT keeps the comment section open for about 5 days now as I was busy since last weekend and did not get time reading it until I listened to NPR's OnPoint Radio discussing it for an hour this morning!
Perhaps the 5535 plus all the "replies", like the one I'm writing, equals 6600+ .
Let's be socially responsible and civilization-minded consumers and vote with our wallets!
Perhaps the 5535 plus all the "replies", like the one I'm writing, equals 6600+ .
Let's be socially responsible and civilization-minded consumers and vote with our wallets!
1
Bezos' response, sent to all of Amazon after the NYT article described hardworking Amazon employees, including middle aged men, crying at their desks and after meetings: "But hopefully, you don’t recognize the company described. Hopefully, you’re having fun working with a bunch of brilliant teammates, helping invent the future, and laughing along the way."
The only person laughing is Jeff Bezos, and he's laughing all the way to the bank.
The only person laughing is Jeff Bezos, and he's laughing all the way to the bank.
35
Ordinary folk that have worked anyplace understand that the Amazon experience is an illustration of the contempt of the big guys for the little guys.
17
Reminiscent of the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward. Tiresome...
8
No matter how "wonderful" nor efficient an organization, sooner, or later, the employees (read "colonists") will rise up, throw off the yoke of the tyrants and establish "in the course of . . . it becomes necessary." Bezos should just think of the Tsars and what was their fate.
5
These stories have convinced me of one thing: the company may be more aptly named the Amazon Plantation.
10
Would I work at the place described in the NYT (which may or may not be Amazon)? No. Because I can get a better deal. If I were desperate, I would sign up for worse.
Do I think some people would be perfectly fine working at the place described in the NYT? Yes, I have worked in the financial services industry through some very unfair and cruel times but I stuck around because I figured the cost-benefit ratio worked out. When it stopped working out, I quit.
Do I buy from Amazon? Yes.
Am I going to stop buying from Amazon? No. As far as I know, there's nothing illegal going on.
What if Amazon's competitiveness owes to a cruel work culture? Well, it will crash and burn and I will find another company that does what it does. Civilisations fall when enough people feel oppressed. This is a company struggling to turn a profit.
Am I disappointed in the NYT? Yes. Not for the original story (even if biased, because journalists are human) but this latest piece which conveniently ignores a lot of the feedback from the other side of the debate (including content Amazon employees), except for the one token comment. There've been other recent examples of this shift in a once fairer publication's mentality. I might cancel my subscription.
Should Amazon care about one customer threatening to leave? Should the NYT care about one reader threatening to leave? Depends on their cost-benefit equations.
What logical framework do all my responses fit in without mutual contradiction? Capitalism.
Do I think some people would be perfectly fine working at the place described in the NYT? Yes, I have worked in the financial services industry through some very unfair and cruel times but I stuck around because I figured the cost-benefit ratio worked out. When it stopped working out, I quit.
Do I buy from Amazon? Yes.
Am I going to stop buying from Amazon? No. As far as I know, there's nothing illegal going on.
What if Amazon's competitiveness owes to a cruel work culture? Well, it will crash and burn and I will find another company that does what it does. Civilisations fall when enough people feel oppressed. This is a company struggling to turn a profit.
Am I disappointed in the NYT? Yes. Not for the original story (even if biased, because journalists are human) but this latest piece which conveniently ignores a lot of the feedback from the other side of the debate (including content Amazon employees), except for the one token comment. There've been other recent examples of this shift in a once fairer publication's mentality. I might cancel my subscription.
Should Amazon care about one customer threatening to leave? Should the NYT care about one reader threatening to leave? Depends on their cost-benefit equations.
What logical framework do all my responses fit in without mutual contradiction? Capitalism.
1
I read the comments before reading the article. After reading the article, I thought the bulk of the comments were pretty, um, strongly negative and clearly judgmental against Amazon.
I noticed in the article there were several Amabots highlighted who have worked at Amazon for 12 years or more -- they looked happy. One doesn't work that long in a place they don't like, at least at that young age. Amazon has it's policies and ways to work; one may not agree with them, but the company has been very-successful. Although the article is a fairly-balanced report, it is only one article. I'd want to read/hear from other sources before making any "judgement" on whether or not to support a company.
I noticed in the article there were several Amabots highlighted who have worked at Amazon for 12 years or more -- they looked happy. One doesn't work that long in a place they don't like, at least at that young age. Amazon has it's policies and ways to work; one may not agree with them, but the company has been very-successful. Although the article is a fairly-balanced report, it is only one article. I'd want to read/hear from other sources before making any "judgement" on whether or not to support a company.
2
Great job NYT. Thank you for this article. I am among the thousands who have instantly decided to boycott Amazon. I hope that others who have sworn to do so will create enough of an impact to instigate significant change in the organization. Until then, I'm voting "no" with my dollars.
7
Jeff Bezos recommends going to HR with your complaints. HR people are generally the biggest, unhappiest stooges around, with a turnover rate exceeding even the company norm, and complaining to them would be just as effective as Edward Snowden complaining to his managers about his misgivings.
22
When it comes to complaints, the most important thing to remember about HR departments is that they work for the management, not the rank and file. In terms of mediating conflicts their role is not to help employees but to protect the company and those who run it.
9
I would love to hear from some people who work in HR at Amazon.
Thanks to the NYT for this important story and followup. Amazon is the spawn of an American consumer and convenience culture gone berserk. It is important to know that our odd material passions reverberate with a vengeance into the workplace.
Bezos is a character out of a Dickens novel. And he is not alone in barbarian American business.
Remember, NOTHING beats a good community bookstore.
Bezos is a character out of a Dickens novel. And he is not alone in barbarian American business.
Remember, NOTHING beats a good community bookstore.
47
I'm an Amazon user because they are currently the most efficient replacement for my vanished record stores and my vanished or, frankly, lousy bookstores. This replacement happened because of the technology of reading material and music - it is no requirement of capitalist savagery that there be an evil monopoly on e-culture, no more than that Henry Ford should make all American cars starting with the Model T, or IBM all computers. Let somebody out-think them, and they'll drop behind.
3
While I live in the Seattle area, I am not an Amazon employee--I just use their online services. Of course in any large company, no matter what its "kindness" index may be, will always have some who just do not fit in with the company's way of doing business. What is missing in this story is the number of disgruntled employees (like those interviewed for the article) and the total number of employees. This is called perspective. What is the turnover rate at Amazon, should also have been reported, not the just vague that it is similar to other tech companies.
I must admit that the picture painted by the article is certainly not a pleasant one of Amazon. That Bezos seems far, far above the fray and his pontifications about his "shock" at the callous nature of his minions toward other employees, I find him a bit disingenuous about correcting this attitude. Really, you want a disgruntled employee to write to you?? You can pretty much infer that such an employee will be marked as a trouble maker, certainly he or she will not advance in the company, if not outright fired. I certainly would not want to work for Amazon. Sorry, but my private life begins when I clock out and I don't expect phone calls at 3am--I would go in and punch the idiot who called me at that hour--of course I would be fired.
I must admit that the picture painted by the article is certainly not a pleasant one of Amazon. That Bezos seems far, far above the fray and his pontifications about his "shock" at the callous nature of his minions toward other employees, I find him a bit disingenuous about correcting this attitude. Really, you want a disgruntled employee to write to you?? You can pretty much infer that such an employee will be marked as a trouble maker, certainly he or she will not advance in the company, if not outright fired. I certainly would not want to work for Amazon. Sorry, but my private life begins when I clock out and I don't expect phone calls at 3am--I would go in and punch the idiot who called me at that hour--of course I would be fired.
7
Carefully reread the original article. The NYT requested data on employee turnover from Amazon. Amazon refused to provide it and instead offered the vague statement about being similar to other companies. Seems to me that if Amazon had a record to be proud, or at least not ashamed, of they wouldn't feel the need to withhold that information.
8
This is a nuanced issue. I presume working at NASA or in newsrooms has its stresses coming from extraordinary demands but rewards from working in a stimulating environment with intelligent, similarly driven people. The Amazons certainly go into the company with eyes open, know its milieu, and accept its terms. The danger is certainly that low-brow, low-bar companies will try to exact Amazon working conditions without many/any of their benefits. I, for one, enjoy both the price points and the customer service and respect that AMZN offers that so often trump other retailers.
5
The Kantor-Streitfeld article is so vehemently one-sided, that I am still wondering why.
The deluge of anti-Amazon comments the paper generated is just one more proof of how easy it is to fire the flames of populist anger.
The deluge of anti-Amazon comments the paper generated is just one more proof of how easy it is to fire the flames of populist anger.
4
Turning people into Amabots. Customer obsession heighten to a ludicrous level. "Associates" monitored on an hourly basis and ambulances parked outside warehouse to replace the weaklings who get exhausted or dehydrated too quickly... Our modern sweatshop.
This is not the society I want. Amazon has been convenient for me by bringing all theses goods at a click of a button. The price paid by society is awful and I will not participate in this. Good bye Amazon.
This is not the society I want. Amazon has been convenient for me by bringing all theses goods at a click of a button. The price paid by society is awful and I will not participate in this. Good bye Amazon.
10
And after all this, let's see if Jeff Bezos makes any changes at all, or if his letter is all for show and he will go back to his throne, scepter in hand.
Will he poll his employees - anonymously - and find out what his employees really think of him and his company, and make life better for everyone at Amazon?
Is he brave enough, does he care enough, to do so?
Will he become less tyrannical in his leadership style and insist that his managers do so, also?
Perhaps he should ask himself this question, "Would I want my own children treated like this and, if not, why am I treating other people's children, though grown, so poorly?"
His legacy is impressive for a business, and poor for humanity.
So we shall see if he changes.
I shall not hold my breath as he has shown dictatorship qualities and enormous, narcissistic greed from day one and I don't want to pass out from lack of oxygen.
Will he poll his employees - anonymously - and find out what his employees really think of him and his company, and make life better for everyone at Amazon?
Is he brave enough, does he care enough, to do so?
Will he become less tyrannical in his leadership style and insist that his managers do so, also?
Perhaps he should ask himself this question, "Would I want my own children treated like this and, if not, why am I treating other people's children, though grown, so poorly?"
His legacy is impressive for a business, and poor for humanity.
So we shall see if he changes.
I shall not hold my breath as he has shown dictatorship qualities and enormous, narcissistic greed from day one and I don't want to pass out from lack of oxygen.
11
Amazon and Jeff Bezos claim that the article is flawed. I would like to see a follow up if possible by the NYT that provides some analysis of each claim and the rebuttal. Amazon should be a little more transparent in their treatment of employees - it would add to their credibility. Secrecy plants the seeds of doubt.
Too many times there is more to a story than either side tells originally and then the truth suffers.
Too many times there is more to a story than either side tells originally and then the truth suffers.
6
What give the article credibility to me is the ‘Amholes’ phenomenon. That doesn’t come from former employees, it comes from third parties making broad observations about the company. If there weren’t at least a grain of truth to it, why is ‘Amhole’ a thing? Clearly, a number of people attribute that attitude to the company culture and not just a handful of individuals.
1
Bezos comments are carefully nuanced damage control.
He might tweak things or make the workplace a little better, so as not to lose corporate face with the public and market share. But things will be done the Amazon way because they work.
Most of us don't have an alternative to dealing with Amazon. Where have government and antitrust laws been?
Read "The Everything Store" by Brad Stone, the most comprehensive outsiders view of Amazon to date. Amazon was late to mp3 sales after Apple had usurped the music business with iTunes. Stone describes an Amazon business trip with a group led by Bezos. It necessitated a long ride by van because plane travel was impossible.
The group desired some music to break up the boredom on the road. During a stop, Bezos purchased several CDs of music - at random, without regard to genre and artist. To Bezos, music was music, completely fungible combinations of sounds.
To Bezos, music is fungible, art is fungible, and people are fungible. Perhaps that is why Amazon was described as a corporation without a soul.
He might tweak things or make the workplace a little better, so as not to lose corporate face with the public and market share. But things will be done the Amazon way because they work.
Most of us don't have an alternative to dealing with Amazon. Where have government and antitrust laws been?
Read "The Everything Store" by Brad Stone, the most comprehensive outsiders view of Amazon to date. Amazon was late to mp3 sales after Apple had usurped the music business with iTunes. Stone describes an Amazon business trip with a group led by Bezos. It necessitated a long ride by van because plane travel was impossible.
The group desired some music to break up the boredom on the road. During a stop, Bezos purchased several CDs of music - at random, without regard to genre and artist. To Bezos, music was music, completely fungible combinations of sounds.
To Bezos, music is fungible, art is fungible, and people are fungible. Perhaps that is why Amazon was described as a corporation without a soul.
9
I am surprised that Amazon is being singled out. Perhaps because they are more successful at the game of corporate greed, practiced by all greedy multi national corporations. I will change my mind when someone points out a top 10 corporation who treats customers, shareholders and employees better than Amazon.............. and trust me I am not holding them out as paragons of virtue.
5
To answer SeattleGuy, if Amazon really 'rewarded employees accordingly', Jeff Bezos would be a lot less rich. But of course that's not part of the plan.
I worked as a computer programmer for tech companies, both large established ones and small startups, and that comment about 'daycare for adults' makes me wonder if SeattleGuy ever worked in a competitive tech environment. If he had, he'd have realized by now that some companies (like Amazon) demand more than they give in return, with the surplus going to the Bezoses at the top.
Buying into Amazon's amoral system is like volunteering for slavery. People who really have it in them to create and achieve have no use for a system like this. It can only thrive as long as there are enough insecure masochists to keep it going. Eventually even they will learn.
I worked as a computer programmer for tech companies, both large established ones and small startups, and that comment about 'daycare for adults' makes me wonder if SeattleGuy ever worked in a competitive tech environment. If he had, he'd have realized by now that some companies (like Amazon) demand more than they give in return, with the surplus going to the Bezoses at the top.
Buying into Amazon's amoral system is like volunteering for slavery. People who really have it in them to create and achieve have no use for a system like this. It can only thrive as long as there are enough insecure masochists to keep it going. Eventually even they will learn.
19
I can only hope Jeff Bezos changes the heartless style of Amazon's work practices to something more humane. I am home bound and Amazon has been a godsend. I will not stop ordering, but my orders will be way down. If JB realizes change is now a necessity he may end up running an even more profitable company than before.
Not everybody reads the Times so maybe he his betting this will be a small glitch and he will go on as before. I hope this is not the case.
I do love ordering books, lots of books, and having them sent to my house, but certainly but i will find another way to do so through a company that treats their employees as they should be treated.
Shame, shame on you Jeff Bezos! You are so on the wrong path and and you know it not. I would not want your karma.
Not everybody reads the Times so maybe he his betting this will be a small glitch and he will go on as before. I hope this is not the case.
I do love ordering books, lots of books, and having them sent to my house, but certainly but i will find another way to do so through a company that treats their employees as they should be treated.
Shame, shame on you Jeff Bezos! You are so on the wrong path and and you know it not. I would not want your karma.
3
Try Alibris.com. I get books from them - they have new and used. I think their model is that they link with independent booksellers who are the ones who actually send the books.
1
Over a year ago, I decided to avoid buying anything from Amazon due to the way they are gobbling up the retail and book industry. I found other sites similar to Amazon to buy the books I like, usually second-hand. Other items I prefer to go to my local stores - we need them in business here, and they need us. Otherwise our shops will be empty and gone. Penny wise and pound foolish!!
10
Maybe you would like to explain how why the NYT has a Glassdoor rating only very slightly higher than Amazon's, 3.7 vs. 3.4?
For those that don't know, Glassdoor allows employees to rate their employers. The ratings show that 500+ NYT employees believe NYT's employment practices are equivalent to Amazon's.
I think we need an expose on that.
For those that don't know, Glassdoor allows employees to rate their employers. The ratings show that 500+ NYT employees believe NYT's employment practices are equivalent to Amazon's.
I think we need an expose on that.
2
I order something from one of Amazon's sellers (not Amazon itself) very occasionally (as in once every year or two), when that's the only place I can find the item. Now I will have to reconsider doing even that.
2
It is all the same in every IT company. I have worked with several "big name" companies. You are just a cog in the broken machine. You work hard but can always be replaced. Special tech knowledge and successful projects don't matter to the executive managers. Both my high tech jobs ended with me on sick leave and then fired or laid off. I worked myself to exhaustion and was thrown to the side when I burned out. IT and high tech are brutal places to work.
4
"On NYTimes.com, the story generated over 6,600 comments, and has dominated both the most emailed and most viewed lists for days."
Was this a record? Although it seems that comments were held open particularly long (I think they should have been closed on the initial article and opened on the article recounting Bezos' statement once that came out), it would still be interesting to know.
Was this a record? Although it seems that comments were held open particularly long (I think they should have been closed on the initial article and opened on the article recounting Bezos' statement once that came out), it would still be interesting to know.
4
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The "Amazon" situation makes it clear why we need Unions. If there is going to be any dialog between Workers and Management, there needs to be some sort of parity between the two groups.
Unfortunately, the standard non-union situation is starkly in favor of Management. If an Employee who is "at will" (as most are) comes to be seen as "difficult," the reason for termination can be vague but still final ... and that's pretty intimidating to those Workers left behind.
Are Unions that bizarre a concept? Are excessive hours at work a new phenomenon?
Over 60 years ago, a document called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) was passed overwhelmingly by the United Nations; yes, the United States concurred. This document – stating clearly the Rights of Peoples everywhere – ought to on the tips of everyone's' tongues.
As to Unions, Article 23.4 says:
"Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his [or her] interests."
As to long hours at work, Article 24 says:
"Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay."
Read the complete UDHR here: http://www.un.org/en/events/humanrightsday/udhr60/pdf/60th_booklet_final...
The "Amazon" situation makes it clear why we need Unions. If there is going to be any dialog between Workers and Management, there needs to be some sort of parity between the two groups.
Unfortunately, the standard non-union situation is starkly in favor of Management. If an Employee who is "at will" (as most are) comes to be seen as "difficult," the reason for termination can be vague but still final ... and that's pretty intimidating to those Workers left behind.
Are Unions that bizarre a concept? Are excessive hours at work a new phenomenon?
Over 60 years ago, a document called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) was passed overwhelmingly by the United Nations; yes, the United States concurred. This document – stating clearly the Rights of Peoples everywhere – ought to on the tips of everyone's' tongues.
As to Unions, Article 23.4 says:
"Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his [or her] interests."
As to long hours at work, Article 24 says:
"Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay."
Read the complete UDHR here: http://www.un.org/en/events/humanrightsday/udhr60/pdf/60th_booklet_final...
145
We need a middle ground between predatory capitalism and unionization of all workers. I worked in a grinding, high demand industry as an engineer similar to what is described about Amazon. Ended up with heart bypassed and moved on to a senior management job with a large government agency.The government with unionized workers was the opposite environment: no innovation, featherbedding, can't fire incompetent workers, most (not all) workers overpaid and under-worked, and workers complained constantly about their jobs. What is the solution to the American business culture that will allow adequate personal satisfaction for employees, but still allow businesses to be productive and flourish. No answers in America today and no thoughtfulness on the issue by any potential presidential candidate who could change the current polarized business environment.
1
I guess I'd rather see these companies go belly up.
1
As you right speak to the necessity of unions, do remember Scott Walker who represents the very antithesis of a governor who respects unions. He is considered a strong GOP candidate!!!
1
"Work is not daycare for adults."
No one needs an Amhole to tell them that. But there's a vast chasm between "daycare" and an environment so dehumanizing that it encourages workers to spy on each other, discourages justified medical/bereavement leave, and demands a 75 hour work week.
Work isn't daycare for adults. Neither is it a gulag.
No one needs an Amhole to tell them that. But there's a vast chasm between "daycare" and an environment so dehumanizing that it encourages workers to spy on each other, discourages justified medical/bereavement leave, and demands a 75 hour work week.
Work isn't daycare for adults. Neither is it a gulag.
272
The person who filed that memorable phrase online, one that sticks in my throat, was doing so to be provocative and to make a comment going against the grain of most of the comments then being posted online on the NY Times. Would this phrase be useful if people were being stabbed to death in the hallways at Amazon? No. Yet, the Times article and the full impact of appreciating the culture at Amazon indicates that spiritually and professionally people are being figuratively stabbed to death at Amazon.
We, in America, have come to understand that people deserve to be treated with decency and respect in the workplace. Amazon seems to have created the opposite, a version of a circular firing squad where workers are encouraged to take aim and fire at each other so that those who manage the battle, and survive, become multi-millionaires. It is very difficult to get hired at Amazon, easy to get fired, very difficult to get promoted because everything is being done by votes of fellow employees. It is a bit like everyone in high school deciding who is worthy of going on to college, except, if you go, you all have to go and stay together. Taken in the harshest light, it seems like a school for assassins whereby "cult members" work diligently to eliminate anyone who might be a threat to their success.
In short, the person who wrote "Work is not daycare for adults" was a fool for ignoring the evidence of what is going on at Amazon (he probably had zero personal exposure to it).
We, in America, have come to understand that people deserve to be treated with decency and respect in the workplace. Amazon seems to have created the opposite, a version of a circular firing squad where workers are encouraged to take aim and fire at each other so that those who manage the battle, and survive, become multi-millionaires. It is very difficult to get hired at Amazon, easy to get fired, very difficult to get promoted because everything is being done by votes of fellow employees. It is a bit like everyone in high school deciding who is worthy of going on to college, except, if you go, you all have to go and stay together. Taken in the harshest light, it seems like a school for assassins whereby "cult members" work diligently to eliminate anyone who might be a threat to their success.
In short, the person who wrote "Work is not daycare for adults" was a fool for ignoring the evidence of what is going on at Amazon (he probably had zero personal exposure to it).
10
No kidding! You have to work seven days a week, 11.5 hours a day to work an 80-hour week...I'm sure your spouse, kids, dog, church, neighborhood group, friends, relatives, biking buddies, AA meeting, book club, Little Brother/Little Sister loves that.
4
If SeattleGuy doesn't work for Amazon, I'll eat my Kindle.
4