"The court document describes how two F.B.I. employees, posing as supporters of the terrorist group, engaged the couple in a long online courtship in which they repeatedly stated their desire to join the militants. Ms. Young wrote that she might be able to offer “medical aid” to the cause. Mr. Dakhlalla wrote that he was “willing to fight.”"
3
Letting them go would be the real punishment. He'd be dead within a month and she'd be turned in to a sex slave. These kids don't have a clue what they're getting themselves into.
13
Everyone please stop saying these two were "educated." They were 19 and 21. They were not educated. They were taking classes and taking tests. That is not educated the same way someone who is 40 and has worked for 20 years, and spends time reading the newspaper online instead of playing video games online. It takes time to become "educated." These two were not educated, but gullible.
31
We seem to be raising youngsters in a 'revolutionary' fashion----as a fashion.
Neoconservatives have been trying to instill 'hate' of our government for years to win elections.
Now we reap the results of such anti-government propaganda..
Neoconservatives have been trying to instill 'hate' of our government for years to win elections.
Now we reap the results of such anti-government propaganda..
5
Oh the irony, that ISIS is the spearhead, but it is our spear. They are the result of funding by our regional proxies and our actions in Iraq. They are loaded down with US hardware and dollars. In my opinion, all religion is an affront to human dignity (to paraphrase Steven Weinberg).. but there's just such a massive gulf between the story as presented to the public in the west, and the facts on the ground. Destabilization of Iraq, Syria and Libya has been the goal since day one,, (quite remarkably in line with Oded Yinon's plan for the region, laid out over two decades ago). But when such powerful interests align, there is little that will stand in their way.
1
These two young people need to be psychologically evaluated. There certainly is more going on with them than what we see from their behavior. This may be the beginnings of some underpinnings of mental illness. Neither knew what they were facing. They are both extremely troubled.
2
I want to know at what point does a statement or action constitute an intention to give aide and comfort to the enemy to the point that it is a criminal act. By the way does the state department put out a list of our enemies. For instance, one day we were against al-Assad, now we support him against ISIS. Does Simon says you can go fight with him as long as your weapon only points one direction? Of course if you fight for Israel there is a universal exemption due to campaign contributions.
ISiS cuts off heads on youtube. They have a rape culture. They torture kids. What wouldn't be attractive about this group to young idealistic people everywhere to make them travel haf the world over By they way? What does "ISIS" want? What are they fighting against? This is story is a fraud as is "ISIS".
1
The Kayla Mueller story in today's NY Times provides an interesting comparison.
Or does it?
Not many news sources have reported that that misguided (and unfortunate) young woman was part of an "aid" organization that was (is) extremely sympathetic to the jihadists.
Or does it?
Not many news sources have reported that that misguided (and unfortunate) young woman was part of an "aid" organization that was (is) extremely sympathetic to the jihadists.
5
Really what is their backstory? Hard to believe that college grads never learned to think clearly enough to see thru the propaganda. Or maybe not.....going to college doesn't mean what it used to. They needed a cause, something to do in the world and were seduced by the ISil people.
1
There's a lot to be filled in. What led these 2 apparently successful young people to be seduced by ISIS? What could possibly induce them to throw away promising futures to join the most ruthless, barbaric terrorist group in the Middle East? There's no explanation. What tipped the FBI off to follow them? How could the parents have been so oblivious to what their children were thinking and planning?
Based on the article, I don't see any sign of entrapment. Something was wrong in the lives of these young people. Maybe we'll get some answers if there's a trial.
Based on the article, I don't see any sign of entrapment. Something was wrong in the lives of these young people. Maybe we'll get some answers if there's a trial.
4
I do not understand. Why would this couple and others want to join such an evil and heartless group? People with bright futures and just destroying them for an awful cause. What a discouraging story.
People that live in the USA should have more national pride than this. We live in a great nation that is safe, and protected. It doesn't make sense that this couple would want to switch to bloodshed.
People that live in the USA should have more national pride than this. We live in a great nation that is safe, and protected. It doesn't make sense that this couple would want to switch to bloodshed.
6
Because they believe in the Islamic teachings and vision of the new caliphate, beheadings, sex slaves, intolerance, atrocities, and all.
Instead of arresting these people, our government should let them go with no right of return to our country.
Instead of arresting these people, our government should let them go with no right of return to our country.
6
This was by far the saddest news I've read to date on the far reaching had ISIS has on individuals in our country. Maybe these two young, intelligent and promising people, particularly Ms. Young, have not heard about what ISIS has done to the Yazidi women or what they did to Kayla Mueller.
5
Get ready America, This story will be repeated multiple upon multiple times going forward. Twisted young people (and older) will somehow be convinced that America is to blame for the problems in the Middle East. After all, democracy and capitalism are evil, and Islamic extremism is the answer. Unless of course you are a minority, a homosexual, a feminist, or anyone who claims the same basic rights of any human being.
9
Sy Weiss
Fort Lee NJ Pending Approval
Not that long ago, during the Baltimore riots, we saw so many black " Kids " doing crazy bad things. They were getting arrested and I presume would go to JAIL. These " Kids " , I thought, had no real family structure, and had a life run am-muck . NO hope for the future. No order, or a culture to bind them to what WE call a Positive way of life. They Now belonged. Like Joining the Army and kill people. For POOR Muslim kids in Europe, or other places with no future, not unlike poor American kids with No Known Father, poor or no skills to make a REAL Life, why not Join UP. They are promised GLORY, adventure, A Wife, and ticket to Many of them if they " SUCCEED. Join ISIS !
Fort Lee NJ Pending Approval
Not that long ago, during the Baltimore riots, we saw so many black " Kids " doing crazy bad things. They were getting arrested and I presume would go to JAIL. These " Kids " , I thought, had no real family structure, and had a life run am-muck . NO hope for the future. No order, or a culture to bind them to what WE call a Positive way of life. They Now belonged. Like Joining the Army and kill people. For POOR Muslim kids in Europe, or other places with no future, not unlike poor American kids with No Known Father, poor or no skills to make a REAL Life, why not Join UP. They are promised GLORY, adventure, A Wife, and ticket to Many of them if they " SUCCEED. Join ISIS !
3
All I know is that terrorism does not discriminate. These two are a prime example of this.
4
It's difficult to read the article on the ISIS religious rapes and then read this article without getting angry at these two.
31
Ms. Young is just plain stupid. Of all things at a gang of murderers like the IS she seeks something that she can not find in their ideal bourgeois world, or does not believe to find that. She has no idea what Islam is, let alone what the ISIS is. As a woman, under the IS that would be her world:
http://www.n-tv.de/politik/IS-Frauen-foltern-mit-dem-Beisser-article1446...
And Mr. Dakhlalla wanted to fight for IS to ... How? Maybe so:
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=29z94lk%3E&s=8#.Vc_AJiEVhkg
I have no sympathy for this couple. These are the degenerate idiots from the western affluent society who seek the "honeymoon" at a breeding that murders in the name of Allah, raped and enslaved.
Twenty years have too little! Give this lowlife fifty years, or the gallows!
http://www.n-tv.de/politik/IS-Frauen-foltern-mit-dem-Beisser-article1446...
And Mr. Dakhlalla wanted to fight for IS to ... How? Maybe so:
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=29z94lk%3E&s=8#.Vc_AJiEVhkg
I have no sympathy for this couple. These are the degenerate idiots from the western affluent society who seek the "honeymoon" at a breeding that murders in the name of Allah, raped and enslaved.
Twenty years have too little! Give this lowlife fifty years, or the gallows!
6
Now we can only guess why these two young men chose the path of violence and hatred, instead of a happy future in America. The only thing now we have to think how to prevent the occurrence of similar cases. For that intelligence agencies should more actively seek ISIS propagandists on the Internet.
2
Since when did ISIS become the Peace Corp in the minds of a handful of young Americans? I don't recall a rush of young Middle Americans attempting to join the Khmer Rouge or The Lord's Resistance Army.
7
As soon as I read this article, I recalled the riveting article in the New York Times on June 27 entitled 'ISIS and the Lonely Young American.' The perseverance of the ISIS recruiters is alarming.
Many people are commenting that the FBI 'entrapped' this young couple. But the lengths that ISIS is going to in order to convert young Americans and Europeans is astonishing. Yes, they want them as fighters and sex slaves (although most of the young women probably don't see that as their role), but even more the propaganda value and the knowledge of the West and in many cases the actual technical skills that these young recruits bring.
There is a big difference between entrapping and stopping. These youngsters are being radicalized by ISIS, not our government, mostly through the internet, and our only weapon is to listen in on those conversations and then intervene to redirect the people to FBI agents instead of allowing them to continue on their path to war against us.
Many people are commenting that the FBI 'entrapped' this young couple. But the lengths that ISIS is going to in order to convert young Americans and Europeans is astonishing. Yes, they want them as fighters and sex slaves (although most of the young women probably don't see that as their role), but even more the propaganda value and the knowledge of the West and in many cases the actual technical skills that these young recruits bring.
There is a big difference between entrapping and stopping. These youngsters are being radicalized by ISIS, not our government, mostly through the internet, and our only weapon is to listen in on those conversations and then intervene to redirect the people to FBI agents instead of allowing them to continue on their path to war against us.
9
Good point - in this particular case, apparently FBI employees pretended to be ISIS supporters, and talked the couple into their attempted trip, then arrested them. That sounds like entrapment: there is clearly a lot more to the story, and maybe someday we will get more of it.
But the real ISIS is doing a lot of real recruiting on its own. If the FBI employees hadn't latched onto these kids with a phony "courtship", its quite possible that they would have been genuinely recruited by the real ISIS - probably even more of a disaster for them. That alternative is the only justification for the practice of entrapment, but whether it is valid or not is a question. One problem is that we might be generating arrests with our fake recruitments, without actually cutting into the real recruitment programs. I doubt that this is our "only weapon", but I don't see any easy answers.
But the real ISIS is doing a lot of real recruiting on its own. If the FBI employees hadn't latched onto these kids with a phony "courtship", its quite possible that they would have been genuinely recruited by the real ISIS - probably even more of a disaster for them. That alternative is the only justification for the practice of entrapment, but whether it is valid or not is a question. One problem is that we might be generating arrests with our fake recruitments, without actually cutting into the real recruitment programs. I doubt that this is our "only weapon", but I don't see any easy answers.
Maybe there is a lesson for us all about the persuasive power of "radical" social advertising. By radical I don't just mean radical Islam, but rather the pervasive, embedded messaging that is becoming the constant diet of many. For the young, they essentially know no other diet. Through targeted marketing, it seems too easy for those who would gain from our missteps to gain a foothold and leverage it to an almost unbelievable conclusion. This most commonly takes the form of separating fools from their money, but is also separating vulnerable young people from human relationships.
1
Hope this garbage gets a good 40 years in a max security prison. Hmm, join an NGO in Africa or Asia for a few months to combat infant mortality or maybe teach kids how to read? No! I'll join a murderous organization and provide them with aid and comfort. I'll show mom and pop, too!
5
Not that long ago, during the Baltimore riots, we saw so many
black " Kids " doing crazy bad things. They were getting arrested and I presume would go to JAIL.
These " Kids " , I thought, had no real family structure, and had a life run am-muck .
NO hope for the future. No order, or a culture to bind them to what WE call a Positive way of life.
They Now belonged. Like Joining the Army and kill people.
For POOR Muslim kids in Europe, or other places with no future, not unlike poor American kids with No Known Father, poor or no skills to make a REAL Life, why not Join UP.
They are promised GLORY, adventure, A Wife, and ticket to Many of them if they " SUCCEED. Join ISIS !
black " Kids " doing crazy bad things. They were getting arrested and I presume would go to JAIL.
These " Kids " , I thought, had no real family structure, and had a life run am-muck .
NO hope for the future. No order, or a culture to bind them to what WE call a Positive way of life.
They Now belonged. Like Joining the Army and kill people.
For POOR Muslim kids in Europe, or other places with no future, not unlike poor American kids with No Known Father, poor or no skills to make a REAL Life, why not Join UP.
They are promised GLORY, adventure, A Wife, and ticket to Many of them if they " SUCCEED. Join ISIS !
1
Who knows what goes on inside the minds of seemingly normal, or not so normal people?
The religious fanatics, which are so numerous that a sub-classification is necessary.
The neo Nazis
The victims of bullying who react with their own criminal actions
The peaceful theater goer that gets upset and empties his gun on a family man using his phone.
What is the common thread here?
It is obviously our desire to understand and explain, a perfectly useless endeavor, as nothing ever seems to change.
All these people feel that they are on the right, including those crazy enough to seek a more meaningful life under the aegis of ISIS. Nothing can be explained, weakness of mind is the only rational explanation, fitting most of the killers or would-be killers we are talking about.
The religious fanatics, which are so numerous that a sub-classification is necessary.
The neo Nazis
The victims of bullying who react with their own criminal actions
The peaceful theater goer that gets upset and empties his gun on a family man using his phone.
What is the common thread here?
It is obviously our desire to understand and explain, a perfectly useless endeavor, as nothing ever seems to change.
All these people feel that they are on the right, including those crazy enough to seek a more meaningful life under the aegis of ISIS. Nothing can be explained, weakness of mind is the only rational explanation, fitting most of the killers or would-be killers we are talking about.
If anyone was paying attention, ISIS is attracting highly educated people to their cause. These are not backward yokels. There ranks are made up of possibly engineers, doctors, lawyers, advertising professional, computer programmers etc, etc etc. Only the arrogance in the countries think they are just some low educated people. They are barbarians, but they are not stupid. The West is dealing with them as if they just some desert hut people.
4
Once again--if this is all true---we have some persons "personal religious beliefs"---determining their illogical actions!!
1
To the commenters here critical of the FBI: what practices would you suggest to our law enforcement people, in their trying to protect us?
Obviously, this article brings up deep issues regarding religion, culture, family, education.. but addressing these issues is not their job, and I applaud and thank them for doing well the job we need them to be doing.
Obviously, this article brings up deep issues regarding religion, culture, family, education.. but addressing these issues is not their job, and I applaud and thank them for doing well the job we need them to be doing.
9
It seems that in the effort to discover home grown terrorist cells, the Feds have stooped to growing some of their own. Talking young impressionable people into incriminating themselves is neither discovering nor preventing terrorism. It simply constitutes easy pickings, setting people up for arrest who would never have gotten interested or followed through otherwise. Typical self serving law enforcement, going after non-criminals to make themselves look good at little or no risk.
7
Every generation has "crazy" stuff which they do. Once upon a time they were crossing uncharted oceans and borders to discover places, fight wars escape famine, find Gold or work, sometimes for nothing. ISIS may be on to something . Young people from many countries are findind their cause attractive. Are they fleeing persecution or is there an unrecognized Holy GRAil or Fountain of Youth? The answer evades us but time will tell.
3
The best one can hope for is that one day in the not-too-distant future, they fully appreciate that getting caught by the FBI was the best thing that could possibly have happened to them.
6
Isn't this just another aspect of the "pushing the envelope" culture kids are growing up in? Look at the rise in, for example, extreme sports, gender bending, fundamentalism of every stripe, extreme partisanship, politically incorrect. And so on. All are the same cogs in the wheel of a dynamic of needing to push that needle. Before, kids would have dreams of traveling to the moon or inventing a cure for cancer. Now, dreams are all about money, money, money. Those who are more driven by ideology than by material gain need room to dream and/or fantasize. This is their new frontier.
2
The BBC is asking the same questions about many more who've joined ISIS.....they apparently have hundreds seduced by cyber political movements. Could this be the tip of an iceberg of defections?
2
Islam is a mythology gone awry. These people are the common example of the myth-struck. It can happen, and does happen on a regular basis.
4
High levels of circulating hormones combine with a lack of experience to bring down many young people with promising futures. It is all too easy for predators to take advantage.
This is a nice couple. They could have been folks from college with me who went from smoking weed at a concert in central park to a commune in San Francisco or even to as Rasta camp in Ja. Some forsook "confo
1
As one who came of age in the Sixties I am constrained to remember all my dead friends and acquaintances of the period: Nam, drugs, cars, sports, "politics", etc. More significantly, I try to keep perspective by remembering how true is the saying, "There but for fortune go I."
The specific values many of us then espoused were most definitely better by any definition held by 99% of Americans than those of ISIS. Yet, I am not certain but that a significant part of us held their vision with the same alienated, unconsciously self-righteous certainty of many of these young people who go off to join ISIS.
Yes, the difference in values is of paramount significance, but if we want to understand and effect a change in the current phenomenon, it is important we understand their motivations and not project on to them our own perspective.
I do not think our current dysfunctional and corrupt Congress, as well as media that profit from invective, hate, and polarization are at the root of the problem. Rather, I believe they are more emblematic of it. What we suffer from is a dearth of quality leaders who have both vision, credibility, and the skills to lead. (Mea culpa! I must admit in the '60s, we would have been loathe to acknowledge the positive effects of leaders.)
The leftist Sixties decried leaders per se, while elevating personal over communal values and responsibility. Those chickens proliferated pervasively on the Left, Right, and middle, and now have come home to roost.
The specific values many of us then espoused were most definitely better by any definition held by 99% of Americans than those of ISIS. Yet, I am not certain but that a significant part of us held their vision with the same alienated, unconsciously self-righteous certainty of many of these young people who go off to join ISIS.
Yes, the difference in values is of paramount significance, but if we want to understand and effect a change in the current phenomenon, it is important we understand their motivations and not project on to them our own perspective.
I do not think our current dysfunctional and corrupt Congress, as well as media that profit from invective, hate, and polarization are at the root of the problem. Rather, I believe they are more emblematic of it. What we suffer from is a dearth of quality leaders who have both vision, credibility, and the skills to lead. (Mea culpa! I must admit in the '60s, we would have been loathe to acknowledge the positive effects of leaders.)
The leftist Sixties decried leaders per se, while elevating personal over communal values and responsibility. Those chickens proliferated pervasively on the Left, Right, and middle, and now have come home to roost.
3
Most of us cannot comprehend what influences others. We only see the world through the prism of our own wants and needs and experiences. Young minds are especially receptive to the bad - and fortunately the good of civilized society.
The ISIS phenomenon is a cult, pure and simple - like the Moonies, Charles Manson, Scientologists, Hari Krishna and so on - just much more dangerous and deadly. How any of them ensnare the young into their trap is a mystery, but they do to the dismay of the rest of us. It is a form of brainwashing, that is operating faster than ever via the internet-in itself an instrument of addiction. Psychologists need to figure this one out and quickly.
22
Here I thought the FBI and Homeland Security were trying to uncover plots against our nation, from terrorist groups representing all causes, ranging from those militants who bombed the Oklahoma City Federal Building to those who people encouraged by ISIS to attack people in the United States.
Now I find that they are holding online chats with a promising young American couple who were so inexperienced that even finding their way to ISIS represented a real challenge.
It appears that some of our enforcement agencies need to be re-directed to better, more fruitful, enquiries that offer real protection.
Now I find that they are holding online chats with a promising young American couple who were so inexperienced that even finding their way to ISIS represented a real challenge.
It appears that some of our enforcement agencies need to be re-directed to better, more fruitful, enquiries that offer real protection.
13
I do not understand why her parents did not sit down with her and have a heart to heart talk when she converted to Islam. When kids get to college they are open to new ideas that is why parents should keep the lines of communication open and find out what is going on in the heads of these naive idealistic kids.
14
Maybe her parents encouraged her --
Unlikely pair, in an unlikely place with a connection most likely we all hate.
3
Why are they an unlikely pair? They're two American kids who went to the same school.
Regarding that connection you think most of us hate, was that in reference to the Black female forcing herself onto the White male, or did you mean the Christian innocent child of God seduced by the Muslim infidel? It wasn't clear to this reader.
This report may seem so unbelievable because there is so much missing. Were these two unlikely candidates recruited to ISIS by our government's FBI agents or by agents of ISIS? The frightening disclosure in this story is that the kinds of deceptions that worked to recruit two bright well-educated young Americans into supporting a murderous organization could well be used to recruit Americans to support, with their hearts, very evil causes of any government or organization. The value of this story lies elsewhere, in the transcripts of the communications that show to all citizens the nature of the persuasions that are employed very effectively to deceive.
10
I see the most important issue as to stop and prevent young American Muslims and others to desire joining ISIS. I believe that we need a new compulsory course in all schools and universities emphasizing the democratic values of our society against the other extremist values. Eventually, such courses should be made compulsory in all state and non state, including religious institutions. While certainly we cannot stop all the fanatics and parents indoctrination, but a well done educational program might give food for thought to some of ISIS potential volunteers.
3
It is not religion or ideology which is attracting these youths towards Daesh. I strongly believe it is the thrill which is absent in the present situation. They want to experience the thrill of an animal life, even it is short. Some youths from India had gone to Syria and the reason seems the same. One of them escaped from the barbaric life and returned to India, while many have lost their thrilling lives.
5
Young men and women from allegedly good families end up joining drug gangs. They commit heinous crimes. Why? It's anyone's guess. These two young adults made choices, albeit bad ones. Even if they were "entrapped" they could have said no. They did not. After reading yesterday's article about the horrific rapes of children, I have little or no pity for them. If I sound harsh, so be it. But so are the tactics of ISIS, harsh and unforgiving. Idolizing them is devil worship. There are plenty of good people in the world. Strive to be one of them.
15
Putting people in jail too quickly is an epidemic in this country. These young people need supervision and observation, but they do not necessarily need either jail time, or any punishment that prevents them to move back towards participating in the US society.
Somehow, we need to use a category like probation, especially for young people who make poor choices. Young people should be allowed and encouraged to serve their probations while continuing their higher education. In this instance, removing their passports, and if deemed necessary, applying ankle gps bracelets, and mandated counseling should be enough.
If we throw such people in jail, with their futures here destroyed, we are guaranteeing ISIS terrorists in the future.
Somehow, we need to use a category like probation, especially for young people who make poor choices. Young people should be allowed and encouraged to serve their probations while continuing their higher education. In this instance, removing their passports, and if deemed necessary, applying ankle gps bracelets, and mandated counseling should be enough.
If we throw such people in jail, with their futures here destroyed, we are guaranteeing ISIS terrorists in the future.
15
What is missing in a lot of American and Canadian Lives is "Common Group Identity". This could be a case of Bait and Switch gone really really bad... but it should give pause to the Republican bandwagon of Hatred, Venom, and Warlike Stances. We are all citizens of North America and we need to open up to each other and plot a course we can all agree upon. I wish we had a Bernie Sanders in Canada to let Truth and Justice back into our governments, courts and Media. Get this couple on Oprah and Stewart so that the right questions get asked and the Media are forced to shut their mouth and grow a new face.
5
It is no wonder that people in such a horrible red and white state like MS would be so radically against the world they live in. If they grew up in a more amicable environment, like Sweden or here in southern Oregon, they would have viewed the world differently.
6
Authorities should have let them go to Syria so they could see the reality of what they were imagining. When they returned, if they survived, they could then teach other young people how it really was. But more fundamentally, their decisions show problems in American culture that need attention. Young people need to be able to find ways to use their idealism in this culture. Would a real youth corps help so they could feel they were fixing things here? We talk about this a lot. It's time to get it going. Past time.
9
Check Teach for America, Jesuit Volunteer Corps, Mennonite Central Committee, Lutheran Volunteer Corps, Idealist.org, Peace corps, and a host of others, for starters....
Let the case play out and not jump to conclusion by the government’s charge. There was a case in Bay City Texas where three Palestinian-American men who were found with 1,000 cellphones were charged with terrorism acts. The terrorism charges was later on dropped because they purchased cell phone for resale purpose. Cases like this happen frequently in the News due to some of incompetent and overzealous FBI agent and prosecutors
8
School educators across the U.S. should already be educating their students about the insidious danger of joining any cult, particularly ISIS which in many ways is adopting the brainwashing techniques of the religious cults of the 1960's and 1970's. Instead of jailing these naïve, disillusioned, brainwashed youngsters, they should be put in a special deprograming hospital run by caring qualified medical staff where they can be nursed back to reality. Letting them rot in prison isn't the answer. There is no time to lose.
7
Let them, revoke their citizenship and place them on the international terrorist list. Otherwise, we'll be using more citizens' dollars to keep them interred, clothed, fed and free medical treatment.
4
The "improbability" of it is key and, I would imagine, part of the plan to use these kids without them suspecting why. They were vulnerable, which made them attractive candidates for recruitment. These kids all want to "belong," and feel that they are part of something bigger, while being spared the gory, minor, philosophical details.
2
A mixed race couple of good looking, smart kids, in Mississippi. How much racism and intolerance have they come across? For those who are puzzled and wonder who persuaded them, the possible answers are staring them in the face. The agents of ISIS are the bigots who spew out insults and hatred. Until prejudice abates and we become "a more perfect union" we will be vulnerable. We need a greater effort to reduce intolerance, because this is not a problem that the FBI or the armed forces can address.
7
The US government should spend its time and money trying to learn from these two what led them to begin to consider IS. Once the government was involved, the case was contaminated.
Immediately talking about 20 year prison sentences is crazy but perhaps all too American (I am American) since imprisonment is so common in the US.
Here is a job for the Times. Set your researchers to work to learn how IS candidates are handled in other countries. From what I have read in Swedish newspapers I think European countries have programs that try to intervene and if people fall into IS try to get them to leave and even help on return.
Once an individual is identified as "falling", why not intervene to persuade rather than entrap. I need to know more than I can get from this story.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Immediately talking about 20 year prison sentences is crazy but perhaps all too American (I am American) since imprisonment is so common in the US.
Here is a job for the Times. Set your researchers to work to learn how IS candidates are handled in other countries. From what I have read in Swedish newspapers I think European countries have programs that try to intervene and if people fall into IS try to get them to leave and even help on return.
Once an individual is identified as "falling", why not intervene to persuade rather than entrap. I need to know more than I can get from this story.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
10
Through work and family I know a number of college-age young people. I have no idea if this reflection helps to explain these two particular people, but I think it might.
I am continually amazed at how completely ignorant of the world (unless by the "world" you mean the latest antics of the Kardashians, etc.) so many young adults are - even seemingly bright, educated, engaged young people. I have had students admit they don't know how Congress works or who their Representatives are. They read no newspapers (online or print) and never read books outside of school. I've had young relatives reveal zero recognition of current events or foreign cultures. Zero. They live almost entirely in a bubble of friends, social media, parties, celebrities, sports, fashion, and reality TV. I wouldn't be surprised if one of my nieces - who is the same age as the Ms. Young and also a college student - had never heard of ISIS, or had only the dimmest idea. This isn't true of all college-age students by any means, but as a country we really seem to be missing the boat in expecting our young adults to asume some kind of post-adolescent identity aside from chasing after that all-important "good job."
I am continually amazed at how completely ignorant of the world (unless by the "world" you mean the latest antics of the Kardashians, etc.) so many young adults are - even seemingly bright, educated, engaged young people. I have had students admit they don't know how Congress works or who their Representatives are. They read no newspapers (online or print) and never read books outside of school. I've had young relatives reveal zero recognition of current events or foreign cultures. Zero. They live almost entirely in a bubble of friends, social media, parties, celebrities, sports, fashion, and reality TV. I wouldn't be surprised if one of my nieces - who is the same age as the Ms. Young and also a college student - had never heard of ISIS, or had only the dimmest idea. This isn't true of all college-age students by any means, but as a country we really seem to be missing the boat in expecting our young adults to asume some kind of post-adolescent identity aside from chasing after that all-important "good job."
26
As one commenter has already noted, our society more and more lacks a compelling vision for young people. Our current "vision" best follows Trump, sports stars, and Wall Street: be loud, rich, and powerful. The charade is that it trumps everything. Although Christianity has a social message that is as compelling as Islam, the Christian right focus on judgement, individual morality, gays and abortion and this lacks a life compelling vision. For a while, the prosperity vision "worked" until the corporate world abandoned it. Given the lack of moral leadership in this country, I would expect this to get worse before it gets better.
11
The USA does not offer a leading vision any longer. We could lead in climate change, development, fairness, etc. Instead we have turned into a cold, racist, violent oligarchy. Those of us who are older are the "frogs boiling in the pot"---we have some memory of the 1950s and WWIII from our parents. We have learned to tolerate the rants from gun lovers, climate-deniers, racists, the periodic killing of blacks, the massacres by the deranged, the inability to mend social security, and the endless servings of unhealthy sugar coated, chemically-enriched foods that make us unhealthy. Just another day in America.
But for the young, America offers nothing transcendent. There is no vision other than try to get a job in an increasingly automated world, and then live in then live in the mess described above. Rampant capitalism, controlled by the few, ultimately leads the end of the world through climate change...what young person wants to be part of that? There is no idealism any longer; any sign o it is squelched. That ISIS offers an alternative is indicative of how asleep we are, hypnotized by this consumer driven, cynical, selfish dysfunctional culture veering to our extinction. Now we can also watch our children walk into the mouth of a dragon.
But for the young, America offers nothing transcendent. There is no vision other than try to get a job in an increasingly automated world, and then live in then live in the mess described above. Rampant capitalism, controlled by the few, ultimately leads the end of the world through climate change...what young person wants to be part of that? There is no idealism any longer; any sign o it is squelched. That ISIS offers an alternative is indicative of how asleep we are, hypnotized by this consumer driven, cynical, selfish dysfunctional culture veering to our extinction. Now we can also watch our children walk into the mouth of a dragon.
17
I am not sure about this thesis, but many people develop obsessive special interests or ideas and become zealous about them. It can be a belief in a very particular diet as the only true path, a conviction that vaccinations are dangerous to children, or devotion to Star Trek. There is a certain randomness determining which people fixate on some overpowering idea or interest, and on what it is. One person became life long Buddhist after picking up a book in a bookstore in an academic town. His big interest did no harm and was actually beneficial to many people. It seemingly is almost like falling in love--a chemistry no one can really account for. ISIS is on the internet, and there are going to be odd moments of chemistry that lead seemingly average people into a world of great danger to them, and barbaric harms to others. Twenty years for two kids who got hit by the really wrong chemistry is a lot. But their plans were atrocious. I wonder what it would take to know they had been disabused of their wonderful new passion.
4
What united these two kids was faith in a cruel, possessive, autocratic, Abrahamic god. Faith itself is the culprit here. These two are like most people growing up in a religious culture which values believing in unseen things, supported by no evidence whatsoever. They have already been indoctrinated to think reason has no credence when it comes to religion. It's no surprise to me that, being young and idealistic, they decided to do what was asked of them--that is, take Scripture literally. It's a good thing that most Christians don't read their Bible or take the 1,300 some odd cruel passages in the literally. Otherwise, like Muslims, they would be stoning adulterers, raping little girls before executing them for disobedience, throwing homosexuals off tall buildings and hanging unbelievers. Religious people are moderate, respectful and kind when they ignore the crazy parts of their Scripture and do what comes natural to people who feel a loving connection with others. Most people want to be good because it's in our nature as a evolutionary strategy to form culture and be cooperative. As physicist, Steven Weinberg put it in 1999: "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
14
I can't fathom why a young bright, educated African American woman would seek to join an organization that brags on the Internet of enslaving girls and women for sex and even openly defends the practice of child sexual bondage. What in the world was she thinking?
I hope the FBI, forensic psychologists, and investigative reporters will have the opportunity of asking her directly. We keep hearing about these apparently well-adjusted young people who leave comfortable homes in the U.S., or Denmark, or the UK. We hear that their family and friends are distraught and baffled. But we haven't (or at least I haven't) gotten much, if any, sense from the young people themselves (those stopped in time) what their thought process was. Why? What do they find appealing about beheadings, enslavement, punitive and ugly expressions of human sexuality, total submission of women to men, total lack of freedom, and raw, horrific violence? Why?
I hope the FBI, forensic psychologists, and investigative reporters will have the opportunity of asking her directly. We keep hearing about these apparently well-adjusted young people who leave comfortable homes in the U.S., or Denmark, or the UK. We hear that their family and friends are distraught and baffled. But we haven't (or at least I haven't) gotten much, if any, sense from the young people themselves (those stopped in time) what their thought process was. Why? What do they find appealing about beheadings, enslavement, punitive and ugly expressions of human sexuality, total submission of women to men, total lack of freedom, and raw, horrific violence? Why?
60
Maybe because they knew it would totally piss-off their parents?
They don't believe it's true, any of what you've listed. They think it's Western media propaganda. Somehow, I think part of the missing piece in this story is a lack of information on what those two young people were doing before the FBI stepped in. There had to be some recruitment of them on the part of ISIS. They were both too committed to their new found religious brothers and sisters by the time the FBI stepped in.
These young people have no idea what they are doing. Perhaps they think it's like a video game - someone gets zapped but pops up again. Perhaps they think it will be an "adventure". Young people who join terrorist groups probably want a new "community" and find it in supposed acceptance by "religious zealots". Perhaps we need to start teaching children some critical thinking techniques.
23
As someone from Mississippi, let me tell you that...
Kidding. I know as little about these people or their reasons for wanting to join Islamic State as everyone else -- that is to say, nothing. But perhaps if Islamic State had some of its shine taken off (i.e., was routinely getting its ass kicked on the battlefield, was on the verge of obliteration, etc.) people wouldn't view it as divinely ordained and wouldn't be as eager to join up and get blown to smithereens.
Or maybe that would make them more eager to go and defend the caliphate; I honestly don't know. And I don't really care. What I do know is that the longer such a "state" exists, the more allure it's going to have in the eyes of disaffected and soul-sick Muslim youths -- and sometimes the seemingly contented, too.
Islamic State currently controls territory occupied by more than ten million people. Its affiliates are many, and they're multiplying. This president has, for whatever reason, sworn off ground troops. But I would not be surprised at all if the next president, whoever he or she may be, decides that a limited number of infantry is necessary. This is not a "state" we can hope morphs into something we can countenance.
Kidding. I know as little about these people or their reasons for wanting to join Islamic State as everyone else -- that is to say, nothing. But perhaps if Islamic State had some of its shine taken off (i.e., was routinely getting its ass kicked on the battlefield, was on the verge of obliteration, etc.) people wouldn't view it as divinely ordained and wouldn't be as eager to join up and get blown to smithereens.
Or maybe that would make them more eager to go and defend the caliphate; I honestly don't know. And I don't really care. What I do know is that the longer such a "state" exists, the more allure it's going to have in the eyes of disaffected and soul-sick Muslim youths -- and sometimes the seemingly contented, too.
Islamic State currently controls territory occupied by more than ten million people. Its affiliates are many, and they're multiplying. This president has, for whatever reason, sworn off ground troops. But I would not be surprised at all if the next president, whoever he or she may be, decides that a limited number of infantry is necessary. This is not a "state" we can hope morphs into something we can countenance.
8
They were totally entrapped by the FBI, from beginning to end!
Read the crucial paragraph near the end of the story, which should be at the top of the piece. (Yes, the Times is complicit in the deception.)
It seems the major function of the FBI is to manufacture cases of terrorism to keep the public on edge and pump up their own budget. Too bad if some idealistic kids get destroyed in the process -- it's all for a greater cause.
Read the crucial paragraph near the end of the story, which should be at the top of the piece. (Yes, the Times is complicit in the deception.)
It seems the major function of the FBI is to manufacture cases of terrorism to keep the public on edge and pump up their own budget. Too bad if some idealistic kids get destroyed in the process -- it's all for a greater cause.
43
If they can be that easily persuaded to rejoice in murder and join an organization they know beheads captives, they are a danger. These are not impoverished young people with no prospects. I have little sympathy for them.
1
They had to already be sympathetic to the cause for that to work. If you sympathize with terrorists and rapists and mass murderers there's something wrong with you. Yeah it's sad they got caught up in this but in no way we're they forced to do anything. Normal people, when faced with an invitation to join a murderous extremist group thousands of miles away, say no way.
1
I agree with you, but I could not find the quote you open your comment with or even the word entrapped. I was able to search successfully for groups of words, so I must conclude that the Times purged the article or that you are offering your surmise - a surmise with which I entirely agree - of this awful situation.
Listening in, with good reason and a warrant, to catch criminals is one thing, but prodding these children, entrapping them, should be a serious crime!
I agree with you again, but go farther. The crime of entrapment perpetrated on these kids should not only be at the too of the article, it should be the subject of the article.
Listening in, with good reason and a warrant, to catch criminals is one thing, but prodding these children, entrapping them, should be a serious crime!
I agree with you again, but go farther. The crime of entrapment perpetrated on these kids should not only be at the too of the article, it should be the subject of the article.
The Civil War established pretty conclusively that, unless people are equal, the civil society begins to rot, and democratic governance comes to an end. While a large percentage of Mississippians undoubtedly find it to be a delightful mixture of the American Dream and Mayberry Dreamland, few people would be surprised by the revelation that the cancers of religious and racial discrimination lead many residents to the opposite conclusion.
As the Civil War also demonstrated, when internal necrosis reaches a critical mass, defenders and opponents of the establishment become polarized into hitherto unimaginable extremes.
As the Civil War also demonstrated, when internal necrosis reaches a critical mass, defenders and opponents of the establishment become polarized into hitherto unimaginable extremes.
15
Unfortunately this country is rife with hypocrisy. ISIS claims to be an adherent to the one true religion, Islam. Ms Young referred to the purity of Islam and the mongrelization of the bible over the centuries. There are far too many groups and individuals in this country that profess to be adherents to various philosophies only to apply those philosophies to their own advantage. Why should we be surprised that young people could be alienated by such hypocrisy? In religion, politics, and professional conduct we see people fall short of acceptable norms on a daily basis. The old adage, "Never Trust Anyone Over Thirty" rings as true today as it has since first quoted. If not ISIS some other movement will draw the disillusioned youth of our society. In the case of these two young people an extended jail sentence is not the answer.
11
All young adults go through a stage of rebellion. I did it, my children did it. What you hope in these stages is that the expected and normal developmental cycle of becoming an adult does not end up in the hospital or in this case, Syria. I do not have a formula for how to survive these stages. I do feel for these parents, who I am certain made every effort to have this stage in life their children turn out differently. Should add, throwing both in jail for twenty years is not the answer.
28
Taking into consideration this comment addresses one of the myriad of convos that will stem from this NYT piece, how true this rings for me.
In my teens, the 70's was rife with rebellion; we argued and rallied just because it went against what we were taught at home, school and perceived social norms.
Had I been old enough to do damage, during the era, I could've easily been swayed to buy further into the 'cops are pigs' movement, even though is is not who I am today.
Because of bias in reporting I maintain there must be elements of ISIS that could have appealled to the immature teenage or 20-something in me as well, especially if I kept my rebellious stances on the DL.
There is much more to this initial news break, in which much more will be revealed.
The mature rebellion in me can't help but wonder...how much of the whole story will we actually glean; and, even more sadly, which slant will I have to choose, by default?
In my teens, the 70's was rife with rebellion; we argued and rallied just because it went against what we were taught at home, school and perceived social norms.
Had I been old enough to do damage, during the era, I could've easily been swayed to buy further into the 'cops are pigs' movement, even though is is not who I am today.
Because of bias in reporting I maintain there must be elements of ISIS that could have appealled to the immature teenage or 20-something in me as well, especially if I kept my rebellious stances on the DL.
There is much more to this initial news break, in which much more will be revealed.
The mature rebellion in me can't help but wonder...how much of the whole story will we actually glean; and, even more sadly, which slant will I have to choose, by default?
This article did not disclose the laws that were broken and what exactly this young couple did that would warrant 20 years in prison. There are significant pieces of this story that are missing and this disturbs me greatly.
Will this young couple have the benefit of a trial? Will evidence be produced? Will charges be filed? Without due process of law how can the public at large be sure what really happened? Without due process how can any of us be sure that our own words won't be taken out of context and used against us without benefit of due process?
I, for one, do not want to harbor traitors in our midst, but what makes our country unique is our right of due process, if we take that away as a nation, don't we then become our own worst enemies?
Will this young couple have the benefit of a trial? Will evidence be produced? Will charges be filed? Without due process of law how can the public at large be sure what really happened? Without due process how can any of us be sure that our own words won't be taken out of context and used against us without benefit of due process?
I, for one, do not want to harbor traitors in our midst, but what makes our country unique is our right of due process, if we take that away as a nation, don't we then become our own worst enemies?
106
The article clearly does disclose the laws that were broken and further states the maximum sentence for breaking that law. After confessing to their intentions, they are being held without bail but they will get their 'due process' before they can be sentenced.
"After their arrest, the affidavit states, the couple confessed that they were on their way to join the Islamic State. On Tuesday, a federal magistrate in Oxford, Miss., ordered them held without bail, citing their methodical planning. They each face up to 20 years in prison on the charge of attempting and conspiring to knowingly provide material support and resources to a foreign terrorist organization."
"After their arrest, the affidavit states, the couple confessed that they were on their way to join the Islamic State. On Tuesday, a federal magistrate in Oxford, Miss., ordered them held without bail, citing their methodical planning. They each face up to 20 years in prison on the charge of attempting and conspiring to knowingly provide material support and resources to a foreign terrorist organization."
3
The article does state that, "They each face up to 20 years in prison on the charge of attempting and conspiring to knowingly provide material support and resources to a foreign terrorist organization." They will be afforded due process.
They will go through due process, why wouldn't they? They are not foreigners to this country, they are citizens. That was the problem with Guantanamo, they weren't even qualified as prisoners because they were citizens of foreign lands. I believe they should have had due process as well but they didn't.
1
What is most striking is the ease with which two promising young individuals can DENY the reality occurring in Syria with ISIS. Is this a side effect of our media and political hype? Very difficult to prove. I think the only way to dissuade inexperienced young people from being attracted by extreme ideology is much more in-depth history in high school and beyond. With an objective background of history that illustrates the harm that wayward religion has and can cause, at least you are confronted with the FACTS.
We've got to do better identifying extremism for what it is, no? Don't hype. Explain.
We've got to do better identifying extremism for what it is, no? Don't hype. Explain.
24
Attempts at explaining already exist. And only a tiny percentage want to join ISIS. Perhaps the beloved father speaks favorably of militancy to his son in private. Or the young man's interest in psychology is related to mental problems.
During the 1960's disturbed young men and women killed and vandalized in the cause of peace in America and Europe!
Today, disturbed, mostly young people ready to kill for a cause, do it for a "great cause with great leaders" as usual. Now it's a new caliphate.
During the 1960's disturbed young men and women killed and vandalized in the cause of peace in America and Europe!
Today, disturbed, mostly young people ready to kill for a cause, do it for a "great cause with great leaders" as usual. Now it's a new caliphate.
1
I view this as a wake up call, more than anything else. There is much about our society that can cause disillusionment in young people. Dwindling opportunities, increasing costs of education and healthcare, increasing income inequality, unaddressed aspects of institutionalized discrimination, rampant greed that leads eventually to unjustified wars and the associated carnage... the list is long. Some people may realize that even with all these problems, we are still at a stage where there is a strong movement in the country to fix these troublesome aspects and move to a better place; some may quietly despair; and some may fall victim to radical philosophies, such as the young folks in this story. In country of some 320 million people, statistically, this is bound to happen. I believe these young people can be redeemed, and with counselling, they will be able to regain optimism and lead productive lives. I do hope this is the path the authorities will take, and not subject them to years and years of prison.
18
Sorry, there is nothing perplexing here... Muslim fundamentalists are here in growing numbers... The y do not come her to share in our good fortunes under our beloved constitution. they are here to spread Shariah laws !! The same laws which now devistate Arab countries in the Middle East.
26
Why are we stopping these idiots from joining ISIS? And who cares how their convoluted thinking reached such a silly decision?
If they want to join ISIS, let them. Good riddance, The only rule should be that they can't come back to the U.S. In any case, if these two fools had reached Iraq, he would have probably been dead within a couple of months and she would be a sex slave. Best of all, they'd no longer be in the U.S.
Problem solved!
If they want to join ISIS, let them. Good riddance, The only rule should be that they can't come back to the U.S. In any case, if these two fools had reached Iraq, he would have probably been dead within a couple of months and she would be a sex slave. Best of all, they'd no longer be in the U.S.
Problem solved!
40
It would be an interesting experiment if we had planes that shipped wannabe terrorists straight to Syria. We would no longer have to deal with them on our soil, but the Iraqis and the Kurds and normal Syrians i don't think would appreciate having more people to fight. It would provide a bit of ironic justice, but the moral issue of making them someone else's problem makes me less enthusiastic.
Actually, they'd have been perfect to send back to the U.S. after training by ISIS, where they would make good undercover supporters here, capable of wreaking havoc.
Yes, it is horrible and confusing, especially that an educated young woman like Ms. Young would embrace this 14th century malignancy that has risen up in our midst, knowing that ISIS has institutionalized the rape and slavery of women. The internet is filled not only with recruiters and supporters of ISIS but also with a lot of information about beheadings, torture, slavery, abduction and mass murder. Did these two young people ignore that completely and succumb to simple propaganda? Are they so empty of personal values that anything external that provides an easy path to some kind of "paradise" would actually engage them. Do they so lack a moral compass to weigh against the terrifying lack of humanity that ISIS embodies, that they would forsake their lives, their friends and their families for something they only know about through the internet? Democracy certainly has its problems but the light at its core, its ever evolving struggle to enshrine the value of each person, even though it stumbles along the way, engages the concept of all religions at their highest incarnation.
23
Given the environment of toleration and love in which the couple had obviously been raised, it certainly a mystery how they could have been seduced to join the radical muslim movement.
Examining their social media and email communications can only reveal part of the answer.
Had their journey been successful, they would have discovered the irreversibility and reality of their decision. Jaelyn Young especially.
The question is how should this couple be treated? I view this interception in their travel as two lives saved.. Incarserating them for 20 years as terrorists is not a solution. It would be far more productive to closely examine the psychological foundation of their actions under "house" arrest. With the love and support of their families, two worthy lives might be rehabilitated.
Examining their social media and email communications can only reveal part of the answer.
Had their journey been successful, they would have discovered the irreversibility and reality of their decision. Jaelyn Young especially.
The question is how should this couple be treated? I view this interception in their travel as two lives saved.. Incarserating them for 20 years as terrorists is not a solution. It would be far more productive to closely examine the psychological foundation of their actions under "house" arrest. With the love and support of their families, two worthy lives might be rehabilitated.
17
I would remind everyone that these people have not had their day in court, have not had a chance to publicly state their case and that they are entitled to a fair trial of their peers.
Given the history of overzealous law enforcement- including the FBI- essentially entrapping people and then charging them with every imaginable thing they can think of, I want to know if they were coerced by law enforcement. If that is the case, it is quite likely they are mostly guilty of stupidity & naïveté.
As repulsive as someone sympathizing with ISIL is, in America that is not a crime as we have the right to believe as we see fit. If all they did was act stupidly the idea of locking them up for 20 years seems far less than just.
Given the history of overzealous law enforcement- including the FBI- essentially entrapping people and then charging them with every imaginable thing they can think of, I want to know if they were coerced by law enforcement. If that is the case, it is quite likely they are mostly guilty of stupidity & naïveté.
As repulsive as someone sympathizing with ISIL is, in America that is not a crime as we have the right to believe as we see fit. If all they did was act stupidly the idea of locking them up for 20 years seems far less than just.
25
Let them go. Let them renounce their US citizenship. We should not try to keep anyone in this country who converts to Islam and wants to join ISIS. However, we should never let them return to this country.
Their families didn't know anything about their intentions. Are you kidding me? The father refused to sanctify the Islam marriage. What did he think was going on? The couple were of age and could have obtained a US marriage. They didn't! Why? The grooms father was a devout Muslim. Do you expect us to believe that he didn't support the Islamic State.
All of this is happening between two families, attitudes, messages, etc. were presented openly. There is no question where these two young people stood and both families knew it. What did they expect?
This article should cover all of the facts and quote from Young's and Dakhlalla's numerous communications.
Their families didn't know anything about their intentions. Are you kidding me? The father refused to sanctify the Islam marriage. What did he think was going on? The couple were of age and could have obtained a US marriage. They didn't! Why? The grooms father was a devout Muslim. Do you expect us to believe that he didn't support the Islamic State.
All of this is happening between two families, attitudes, messages, etc. were presented openly. There is no question where these two young people stood and both families knew it. What did they expect?
This article should cover all of the facts and quote from Young's and Dakhlalla's numerous communications.
26
"Today, the young woman, Jaelyn Young, 19, and the young man, her fiancé, Muhammad Dakhlalla, 22, are in federal custody, arrested on suspicion of trying to travel from Mississippi to Syria to join the Islamic State".
Arrested on 'suspicion' of trying to travel? Which country is it that 'hates freedom'? 20 years in prison for thinking about helping a terrorist organization? What exactly defines a terrorist organization? Does the Ku Klux Klan qualify? what about Al Sharpton's National Action Network that joins in the burning and destruction of businesses and property? What about Americans who go to Israel to join the IDF and help kill Palestinians? I thought that people actually had to do something to be arrested. Now thinking bad thoughts is even worse. 20 years? What is happening to our country? Politicians talk about building fences to keep illegal aliens out of the USA. It appears we may need one to keep the legal citizens in!
Arrested on 'suspicion' of trying to travel? Which country is it that 'hates freedom'? 20 years in prison for thinking about helping a terrorist organization? What exactly defines a terrorist organization? Does the Ku Klux Klan qualify? what about Al Sharpton's National Action Network that joins in the burning and destruction of businesses and property? What about Americans who go to Israel to join the IDF and help kill Palestinians? I thought that people actually had to do something to be arrested. Now thinking bad thoughts is even worse. 20 years? What is happening to our country? Politicians talk about building fences to keep illegal aliens out of the USA. It appears we may need one to keep the legal citizens in!
20
let em go and then put them on the no fly list.
23
I imagine once they got to Syria she would be taken from him and forced to be a ISIS bride slave and it all wouldn't have seemed so romantic. But they won't find that out now and will languish in prison. This is the kind of thing where alone they wouldn't have done this but together they make a different person with different reasoning, like other duo criminals. I feel sorry for their families and for them for being so smart and yet so stupid.
10
My question is whether these two young people had contacted genuine ISIS recruiters before engaging with the FBI agents posing as such? If so, it is a good thing that the FBI got involved. If not it would seem as though this is a case of entrapment.
18
I was interested that one of their teachers said that during a month-long in depth study of the Palestinian-Israel conflict Mr. Dakhlalla did not have "extreme views on the plight of the Palestinian people". A month long unit on the "plight of the Palestinian people". In high school.
20
Is this really any different than American Jews going and fighting for the IDF? David Brook's son recently did this. These are just ethnic extremists going to the Middle East to continue an ancient tribal war. For Muslims there are very few states left so they have no choice but to join terrorist organizations. But at the end of the day given for example how many children the Israeli military slaughters in its frequent assaults on Muslim targets, I'm not sure how large the moral difference is between the IDF and the ISIS?
14
As a former IDF soldier, I can tell you that for starters no women are rounded up, raped and enslaved en masse. Including Palestinan women. Your comments are stupid and offensive and startling naive, not to mention anti-semitic. Any army involved in a conflict does questionable things - but to compare an national army - which is subject to international law to Isis just highlights your own ignorance. It's like comparing the Belgian army to Isis. Oh wait - Belgium already did that in the Congo - essentially ruining that country forever.
2
The presence of a Mosque in Oktibbeha County, Mississippi is more surprising than that of two radicalized young people in a university town.
13
Probably more surprising that people still think that Muslims have not been in America since the beginning and would certainly have their version of a church or temple wherever they live.
1
Patrick Stevens, you seem to prefer believeing that the FBI chose to suborn treason from these random youngsters.
Did you not notice that Ms. Young is reported to have posted substantially incriminating comments on "social media platforms"? Starkville or not, an American cannot show on-line evidence of whatever amounts to "material support" of a State Department disapproved organization without attracting the baleful gaze of the FBI.
The simple fact is that the next good American kids who 'go ISIS' will learn from this episode to mention nothing of their plans on-line. By getting their education, working their jobs, saving their money, getting their passports, and arranging travel to a NATO ally without a single on-line peep of muslim sentiment, they will be able to achieve their goals without any interference from government.
Did you not notice that Ms. Young is reported to have posted substantially incriminating comments on "social media platforms"? Starkville or not, an American cannot show on-line evidence of whatever amounts to "material support" of a State Department disapproved organization without attracting the baleful gaze of the FBI.
The simple fact is that the next good American kids who 'go ISIS' will learn from this episode to mention nothing of their plans on-line. By getting their education, working their jobs, saving their money, getting their passports, and arranging travel to a NATO ally without a single on-line peep of muslim sentiment, they will be able to achieve their goals without any interference from government.
7
Somewhere i read she came on the top of her class.Obviously she was pretty low on common sense & empathy.
Her joy on "Supporters" for the killer of five unarmed servicemen shows the shallowness of her ideology & lack of self esteem & her bogus loathing.
Her fiance who wanted to be placed with " English" speaking fighters of ISIS should be placed in jail with non english speaking jail birds.
The FBI needs to be commended for ferreting out this type of rats from Starksville.
Her joy on "Supporters" for the killer of five unarmed servicemen shows the shallowness of her ideology & lack of self esteem & her bogus loathing.
Her fiance who wanted to be placed with " English" speaking fighters of ISIS should be placed in jail with non english speaking jail birds.
The FBI needs to be commended for ferreting out this type of rats from Starksville.
14
I'm sure the young man persuaded her to convert and become radicalized. Obviously they were both brainwashed.
11
This has happened before - think Patty Hearst - and will again.
6
There must be a media template for this kind of story, used by reporters and editors like paper towels in a restroom, since I've read/heard it over and over...the family/friends/teachers/community are always "baffled" by the discovery of this "hidden" side of the accused; they were so wonderful, constructive, highly motivated, gentle, responsible, patriotic; no one could possibly have imagined they'd join ISIS/shoot all those people/burn down that school/whatever; everyone in their circle is blindsided and distraught/they've all been photographed hugging each other and crying; it's really a plot by the cops/the FBI/the government/to set them up/exploit them/slander all "peaceful" Muslims/kill all black teens/"(Insert Identity) Lives Matter". Make sure you publish old photos that make them look like angelic members of the church choir, regardless of how they actually appear in the present.
Give us a break already. Stop insulting our intelligence. At least some of us out here are not as gullible and delusional as these articles presume.
Give us a break already. Stop insulting our intelligence. At least some of us out here are not as gullible and delusional as these articles presume.
22
Going to jail for 20 years for the "thought", no real action had taken place. Yet be applaud sending employees of other companies (think contractors in the Iraq war) to foreign countries (think black ops) to torture those we "thought" might harbor bad intentions for the U.S. Something stinks when a supposedly "free" country starts locking up people for their "thoughts" as opposed to their deeds. And the bankers all go free . . . .
16
This is probably the first time I've seen Mississippi referred to as "the heartland" in the pages of the NYT.
19
Her interrogators need to confront her with what we know is happening to young women captives of ISIS and ask her if this is what she considers right and just and did she and does she understand it would have happened to her.
This is all getting to be like "Lord of the Flies", young people surrendering to the worse impulses within them because they are confused and know so very little about anything yet seek some notion of the good. Instead they are choosing pure evil. And why do they not know that.
This is all getting to be like "Lord of the Flies", young people surrendering to the worse impulses within them because they are confused and know so very little about anything yet seek some notion of the good. Instead they are choosing pure evil. And why do they not know that.
15
How many commenters have ever been to Mississippi? How many have taken a long hard look at America? These two youths are reacting to the massive inequality, and in particular the institutionalised racism in America. It is palpable in Mississippi, a sad and awful place even for the educated non-white...and really not much better for the poorer white folks. The saddest thing is that they haven't picked up on the fact that IS's vision of Utopia is no better, it's execution far worse.
8
It was pretty misleading for the first NY Times article on this couple to describe them as "newlyweds" and it's a misreading of the facts for commenters to think of them as a romantic couple.
They sought to enter into a marriage sanctified by Sharia so they could travel lawfully with each other. Islam, strictly interpreted, prohibits women from traveling a) unaccompanied or b) accompanied by an unrelated male.
These kids weren't lovestruck except with the thrilling idea of running away to join ISIS, and it sure sounds as though our Jaelyn was the brilliant mastermind here.
Many, many of us have gone through our young and dumb phases. But I think most of us stopped short, even in the anti-war years, of laying bombs or shooting cops, or even kidnapping heiresses.
It's called Darwinian survival at work...
They sought to enter into a marriage sanctified by Sharia so they could travel lawfully with each other. Islam, strictly interpreted, prohibits women from traveling a) unaccompanied or b) accompanied by an unrelated male.
These kids weren't lovestruck except with the thrilling idea of running away to join ISIS, and it sure sounds as though our Jaelyn was the brilliant mastermind here.
Many, many of us have gone through our young and dumb phases. But I think most of us stopped short, even in the anti-war years, of laying bombs or shooting cops, or even kidnapping heiresses.
It's called Darwinian survival at work...
12
I remember when a parent's biggest fear was that their kids would run away and join the circus.
17
It is a circus, albeit a lethal one.
Any red-blooded American woman is willing to let herself get seduced by a barbaric form of Islam is either weak minded, weak willed, or lack high brain function. If she had made it to Syria she would had been raped at the least or made bear children for these "holy warriors".
18
Why not just take away their internet and passports for 10-15 years??
10
I'm reminded of an old Phil Ochs song: I think the lyrics went something like "And sometimes it is hard to hear the State Dept. say 'You are living in the free world and in the free world you must stay!'"
While this young couple sounds terribly naive and mistakenly idealistic, I've raised two children who went through similar phases of rebellion.
It is difficult for me to square their constitutional right to believe in anything they choose with the FBI's obvious attempts at entrapment. Aside from their professed beliefs, I fail to see a crime here.
This couple needs counseling, not 20 years in a federal prison.
While this young couple sounds terribly naive and mistakenly idealistic, I've raised two children who went through similar phases of rebellion.
It is difficult for me to square their constitutional right to believe in anything they choose with the FBI's obvious attempts at entrapment. Aside from their professed beliefs, I fail to see a crime here.
This couple needs counseling, not 20 years in a federal prison.
9
Agree completely. Law enforcement should keep an eye on them, but they need help, not prison.
Throughout the story there is this theme of "we just don't understand - there were no signs that these 2 could do anything like this...." Then there's this:
Ms. Treloar said Ms. Young had converted to Islam in April after being introduced to the religion by college friends. She recalled that Ms. Young was drawn to the Quran’s teachings because she believed it had been unchanged since it was first written. She thought the Bible, by contrast, had been translated so much that its original meaning was lost, Ms. Treloar said. Ms. Young believed that Muslims and groups like the Islamic State had been unfairly caricatured in the West, Ms. Treloar said. But she saw no signs that Ms. Young would try to join the extremists."
You just have to ask: Uhhh, what was your first clue?
Ms. Treloar said Ms. Young had converted to Islam in April after being introduced to the religion by college friends. She recalled that Ms. Young was drawn to the Quran’s teachings because she believed it had been unchanged since it was first written. She thought the Bible, by contrast, had been translated so much that its original meaning was lost, Ms. Treloar said. Ms. Young believed that Muslims and groups like the Islamic State had been unfairly caricatured in the West, Ms. Treloar said. But she saw no signs that Ms. Young would try to join the extremists."
You just have to ask: Uhhh, what was your first clue?
25
Yes, this (her perception of the antiquity/"authenticity" of the Bible v. the Quran) was an interesting angle to the story. Had she merely, without going deeper, read the Wikipedia article on the history of the Quran (something young people presumably know how to do), she would have learned that the "final" form of the Quran was developed through much textual synthesis, reconciliation, redacting, editing, re-transcription, and "judgement calls", some 20 years after Mohammed's death. The many separate books constituting the canonical Bible anthology were, of course, subject to much the same over a much longer historical period (with re-transcription errors/accretions along the way through antiquity and the early Middle Ages), but someone could have introduced her to the masterful, scholarly, annotated Oxford Study Bible which footnotes and discusses translation and transcription problems and offers interpretive alternatives.
1
Please, my all means. Join ISIS where they will make Ms. Young a sexual slave and "easy-going Mo" will be tortured and forced to be a human shield. Ms. Young is a disgrace to her hero father and the two of them deserve the ISIS life.
NYT - noble attempts to convince the readers how "smart" these two were. Yet, I'm somehow not convinced.
NYT - noble attempts to convince the readers how "smart" these two were. Yet, I'm somehow not convinced.
17
The articles about young people rushing to Turkey and thereafter to Syria always quote friends and relative as saying they have no idea how this happened. And the reporter doesn't provide motive, either. Seems like the rest of us better figure out how it is that apparently ordinary and well-regarded kids are willing to devote their lives to a group that US media (at least) present as soulless killers who encourage the brutal rape and enslavement of young women, among other crimes. We must be missing something.
8
The Peace Corps used to recruit young bright idealistic (and naive) people to serve the world where needed.Cutbacks in programs like this reduce the options for those who want to "do something to make a difference".
12
This event - the young American couple caught at a local airport in Starkville, MI, trying to flee to the arms of ISIS in Syria - is beyond comprehension. The families of the young black woman, Jaelyn Young, 19, and the young Muslim man, Muhammed Dakhlalla, 22, must be agonized and confounded that their beautiful children chose to ally themselves with the teachings of ISIS, ISIL, the New Caliphate, Daesh, that they studied and learned about on the Internet, through social media. Arrested by the FBI at the local Mississippi airport on the first day of their "hejira" to Syria via Istanbul, they now face 20 years in prison. Their colossal ignorance is appalling! Jaelyn and "Mo", college-educated, but ignorant, had such bright futures and now their precious young lives are in ruins. How many more beautiful young American people will be caught in the malign spider's web of ISIS's reach? Jaelyn's and "Mo's" effort to join ISIS is the thin edge of the terror wedge in our homeland. These young people are educated, and yet they fell prey to the preachings of ISIS on the Internet. The barbarians are no longer at our gates, they are among us and will run amok in less time than we can imagine. There is no answer or understanding this terrible conundrum - the lure of ISIS - fomented on the Internet by social media and ignorance of other cultures.
5
What was in the minds of these young people that led them to do what they did? Was it youthful idealism perverted? Was it entrapment? How many young people have been attracted to the ISIS message?
I think there are a lot of young people who are radicalized when they realize the myth of Exceptional America is not the truth. It happened a lot back in the 1960s. If part of what they were taught is a lie, what can they believe?
There's also our national tendency to divide the world into good guys and bad guys. I think that it must be difficult for devout young Muslims to hear the charges from the "idiot rednecks" and not become angry. A defensive posture transforms into attack mode. No, that's not the essence of being Muslim; it's being human.
This piece cannot begin to reveal all the factors involved. It particularly disturbs us because it seems that, if these two were radicalized, it could happen to anyone. That scares us just as it scares us when the kid next door dies from a drug overdose.
Young people are very susceptible to the lure of joining cults. I believe there has been serious research into what makes that happen. If we really want to understand, and not just blame, perhaps that would be the place to look.
I think there are a lot of young people who are radicalized when they realize the myth of Exceptional America is not the truth. It happened a lot back in the 1960s. If part of what they were taught is a lie, what can they believe?
There's also our national tendency to divide the world into good guys and bad guys. I think that it must be difficult for devout young Muslims to hear the charges from the "idiot rednecks" and not become angry. A defensive posture transforms into attack mode. No, that's not the essence of being Muslim; it's being human.
This piece cannot begin to reveal all the factors involved. It particularly disturbs us because it seems that, if these two were radicalized, it could happen to anyone. That scares us just as it scares us when the kid next door dies from a drug overdose.
Young people are very susceptible to the lure of joining cults. I believe there has been serious research into what makes that happen. If we really want to understand, and not just blame, perhaps that would be the place to look.
11
There is a deeper problem here. They must have held some resentment to people in America for this to happen. Perhaps they kept it hidden due to a feeling of powerlessness. You go with the flow, but still have feelings of resentment or frustrations.
3
It would seem that a segment of commenters here is just now finding out about a trend that has been going on for some time now: seemingly bright & affluent youths inexplicably abandoning Western society for war-torn Syria. So why are so many people shocked by this story? This has been going on for a while folks; they aren't the first to try, & won't be the last.
What stuns me is the blowback against the FBI in seeking to weed these people out. Another aspect that those not paying attention might not know is that ISIS has been stocking it's ranks with dozens of Western citizens. So those atrocities we've been reading about? Some % of them are being perpetrated by Europeans & Americans.
We have an obligation to staunch the flight of these malcontents to the ME, to prevent them from wreaking havoc on the innocent, & also to look out for our long term interests. Remember, the elder Tsarnev was radicalized while abroad.
We can't have it both ways. If we lament the FBI's subterfuge in apprehending would be terrorists before they exit, we should not whine & moan when a radical slips back into the US and causes us harm.
What stuns me is the blowback against the FBI in seeking to weed these people out. Another aspect that those not paying attention might not know is that ISIS has been stocking it's ranks with dozens of Western citizens. So those atrocities we've been reading about? Some % of them are being perpetrated by Europeans & Americans.
We have an obligation to staunch the flight of these malcontents to the ME, to prevent them from wreaking havoc on the innocent, & also to look out for our long term interests. Remember, the elder Tsarnev was radicalized while abroad.
We can't have it both ways. If we lament the FBI's subterfuge in apprehending would be terrorists before they exit, we should not whine & moan when a radical slips back into the US and causes us harm.
125
The FBI is going onto social media and going after teens in a "long online courtship"
I think it would be instructive for the readers to see in print what that long online courtship consisted of. Is the FBI looking and grabbing or is the FBI actually doing ISIS recruiting of what may well be very impressionable young teens.
Social media is a place where both recruitment and intervention can take place. When dealing with the young and impressionable perhaps intervention would have been called for. I wouldn't want a teenage suicide hotline giving advise to my kids on how to kill themselves.
I think it would be instructive for the readers to see in print what that long online courtship consisted of. Is the FBI looking and grabbing or is the FBI actually doing ISIS recruiting of what may well be very impressionable young teens.
Social media is a place where both recruitment and intervention can take place. When dealing with the young and impressionable perhaps intervention would have been called for. I wouldn't want a teenage suicide hotline giving advise to my kids on how to kill themselves.
6
"We have an obligation to staunch the flight of these malcontents to the ME...."
I want to agree with you, but more I think of it, I say, "let them go." While they're there, they're considered enemy combatants, whose correspondence with friends and family back here in America is subject to interception and analysis. Who might even be the target of a drone attack.
Oh, and don't let them ever return.
I want to agree with you, but more I think of it, I say, "let them go." While they're there, they're considered enemy combatants, whose correspondence with friends and family back here in America is subject to interception and analysis. Who might even be the target of a drone attack.
Oh, and don't let them ever return.
These two should get life without parole sentences in solitary confinement, so the don't influence others in prison, for attempting to join a genocidal organization murdering masses of people in 7 countries at least.
Publicize THAT on the jihadi websites.
Publicize THAT on the jihadi websites.
13
Does anyone else out there think attraction to ultra right or ultra left groups could be a form of mental illness? Paranoid schizophrenia usually develops around age 20. If so, perhaps one way to deal with ISIS would be to weaponize something like Prozac--give the whole region continued doses. I'd like to see if that works before we send in more drones.
3
I don't see it as mental illness necessarily. Maybe it was, as one poster commented, an awakening and realization that what they had grown up believing about the US and the world is a lie. I can't, however, comprehend how this couple got to the point of believing that ISIS is misunderstood by the West and wanting to join them.
3
People go from one place to another for rational reasons. It might be productive to ask why these two were done with the U.S.A. Just what about our country has disaffected them and propelled them out. Did they find that most of our politicians were corrupt and systematically selling out to nefarious interests who were enslaving their neighbors economically and heating up the planet? By understanding their view of this country we might begin see why they took a chance on another way of life. We must look inward to begin to understand why they wanted to get out.
69
This isn't just a matter of seeking "another way of life" or just wanting "to get out." It's a matter of seeking to join a grotesque, vicious, nihilistic terrorist organization, whose characteristics and crimes have been widely publicized in all media. Had they merely wanted the former ("another way of life"), they could simply have sought legal asylum and citizenship in a country such as France or Sweden, and the FBI would have had no problem with them.
5
So Wisconsin is concerned about the attraction side of the equation. Fine, but I am more interested in learning the reasons for the couples disaffection with our country. What turned them off in the first place to the extent that they wanted to flee. Understanding these factors might lead to the betterment of us all.
1
"People go from one place to another for rational reasons."
Really?
People frequently travel from place to place for absurdly irrational and bizarre reasons.
Really?
People frequently travel from place to place for absurdly irrational and bizarre reasons.
1
If the friends and family of the couple had known that they were falling under the spell of ISIS, they might have been able to work with them and dissuade them of these ideas. Instead, it seems they were egged on and encouraged by the FBI investigators, so that two promising young lives will be blighted. Is this the best way to deal with the problem of radicalization?
10
They were arrested and face 20 years for attempting to fly out of the US? Does that in itself concern anyone?
22
Surely you understand, Rick, that they were not arrested for "attempting to fly out of the U.S." Somehow they had become enthralled with the most hate-filled and brutal group on the planet, and their plan (they have admitted) was to join them. I cannot fathom that anyone who is more than vaguely aware of ISIL's tactics would think they are worth joining, but it is happening. And even the most libertarian American (I am guessing you lean hard in that direction) should be able to see why they are under arrest.
7
Yes... they've committed treason. 20 years? They should be put to death.
2
Voter Suppression by Mississippi can't help but contribute it. When government goes to great lengths like Mississippi does to suppress minorities we should expect more problems than just ISIS.
5
I wonder what kind of "rights" these two would have under ISIS, let alone any "voting rights". But hey, they're down with the cause and that makes what they're trying to do just AOK.
4
A classic case of successful brainwashing . Sad!
3
Give all the ISIS wannabes a one way ticket ISIS-land. As a taxpayer I would cheer every departure. But revoke their citizenship immediately!
9
It completely throws me into a state of panic to think about this situation. How are we to know just how many mosques have been infiltrated by ISIS sympathizers in hometown America and in Europe.
Far from being a racist individual I could never adopt the extremist view that many Muslims are terrorists. An attitude that to many uninformed Americans hold to be true, sad as that is.
None the less if one in every thousand Mosques around the world had one or more ISIS sympathizers in their midst that would be an almost
Unthinkable tragedy.
At a time when many Americans are avoiding many of the traditional religions that they may have been
Raised in. I certainly hope that they haven't forgotten how to have some prayer as part of their lives. For if there was ever a time that it was needed,
That time is upon us now and in our collective futures.
Far from being a racist individual I could never adopt the extremist view that many Muslims are terrorists. An attitude that to many uninformed Americans hold to be true, sad as that is.
None the less if one in every thousand Mosques around the world had one or more ISIS sympathizers in their midst that would be an almost
Unthinkable tragedy.
At a time when many Americans are avoiding many of the traditional religions that they may have been
Raised in. I certainly hope that they haven't forgotten how to have some prayer as part of their lives. For if there was ever a time that it was needed,
That time is upon us now and in our collective futures.
The couple portrayed in this article did not become radicalized at a mosque. The couple, and other young Americans, are becoming radicalized on the internet and on social media. Spying on mosques and social media accounts will not change the radicalization rate. Picking off one young person at a time and incarcerating them is not the solution. We need to find out why these people are drawn to ISIS in order to come up with effective strategies to combat ISIS' marketing onslaught.
1
Life for the non-zealous is full of uncertainty. Certainty -- political and/or religious -- offers respite from the weary task of having to think for ourselves all the time. This is the only thing I know: What matters is whether you make the lives of others better. And ISIS sure isn't the way to go about doing that.
5
What is the crime they have committed? Were they planning a terrorist attack? Had they purchased weapons or bomb material? For 'wanting' to join ISIS? Who knows if it ever would've happened? Who knows if they would've been scared off seeing the reality on the ground once the got there? 20 years is absurd. IF they had joined ISIS then fine, we never let them return to the US. Maybe knowing that would stop them from leaving. We all have extreme thoughts sometimes but who actually acts on them? Are we to be arrested for thinking them?
We should be spending more time looking at WHY these misguided teens wanted to join and offering education to what that actually entails.
What the US government did to the Iraqi people that created ISIS is the real crime. Bombing an innocent civilian people. We should be arresting Dick Cheney , Rumsfeld and Bush for actually committing war crimes, not a pair of knucklehead kids.
We should be spending more time looking at WHY these misguided teens wanted to join and offering education to what that actually entails.
What the US government did to the Iraqi people that created ISIS is the real crime. Bombing an innocent civilian people. We should be arresting Dick Cheney , Rumsfeld and Bush for actually committing war crimes, not a pair of knucklehead kids.
33
Hmmm... all ok until the snippet below. If "long online courtship" means grooming, then it would mean the FBI created the militants themselves.
The court document describes how two F.B.I. employees, posing as supporters of the terrorist group, engaged the couple in a long online courtship in which they repeatedly stated their desire to join the militants.
The court document describes how two F.B.I. employees, posing as supporters of the terrorist group, engaged the couple in a long online courtship in which they repeatedly stated their desire to join the militants.
9
Read the papers, listen to President Obama. How many ringing endorsements of America and the "American way" do you hear? Small wonder that a percentage of intelligent, impressionable, active young people are deciding to take the other side. It is sad that two obviously capable young people have been influenced to direct their energy and passion in this direction. Think of the good that these two could have accomplished, if not misdirected. To think that ISIS, through the internet, and through local contacts, was able....alone.... to influence these kids to such a bad decision is ludicrous. This sort of thing would be much harder for ISIS if we did not have an education system, press, and political leadership creating a constant backdrop of an entirely unjust, evil America. In the words of Rev. Right: "The chickens are coming home to roost."
2
Oh, please! Are we to suppress anything bad that might be said about the US within our borders? Will that satisfy the conservatives? We then become like any other repressive government. As one of my college professors once said, "There's no excuse for not knowing. The information is there to be found." Unless we're going for seal ourselves off like North Korea, people are still going to learn unflattering things about the US. And people will wonder who's version of the US is the real one.
It would help if you would read my comment. I did not say that bad news should be suppressed, I stated that there is a never ending diatribe concerning how screwed up America is. So bad, in fact, that it is not to difficult to understand how, in the ignorance of youth, even those who are educated can come to the conclusion that ISIS represents a preferable alternative to the America. The fact of the matter is, the idea of "sealing ourselves off like North Korea" is pretty much what I see coming from the sources I referenced: If it doesn't cast America in a bad light, it gets no play.
1
The young man involved in this case is a Muslim. It's easy for him to get carried away by the terrorist propaganda mechanism though not every Muslim follows this path of destruction. However I fail to understand how Ms. Young got carried away in this fashion.
Any sensible person can easily understand the modus operandi of terrorists as to how badly they misbehave, rape women and how barbiracally they massacre people including followers of their own faith.
It's not correct to blame F.B.I in this connection as is done by some commenters. F.B.I must have found out that these two youngsters were very much inclined towards ISIS. As such the officers concerned might have wanted to obtain detailed information in this regard in their own way. There are plenty of Muslims living in America. In such a case each and every Muslim must find himself or herself cornered by F.B.I, which is not at all the case.
It's the responsibility of Muslim parents to properly upbring their children and not let their children carried away by the propaganda of worst kind that takes brainwashed people to point of no return.
Muslims living in America and other western countries must understand one thing. There is a reason why they opted for these countries instead of countries of their birth. As such it's onus on them to respect the laws of the lands chosen by them and further they must inculcate these things in their children as well, which is not done in this case.
Any sensible person can easily understand the modus operandi of terrorists as to how badly they misbehave, rape women and how barbiracally they massacre people including followers of their own faith.
It's not correct to blame F.B.I in this connection as is done by some commenters. F.B.I must have found out that these two youngsters were very much inclined towards ISIS. As such the officers concerned might have wanted to obtain detailed information in this regard in their own way. There are plenty of Muslims living in America. In such a case each and every Muslim must find himself or herself cornered by F.B.I, which is not at all the case.
It's the responsibility of Muslim parents to properly upbring their children and not let their children carried away by the propaganda of worst kind that takes brainwashed people to point of no return.
Muslims living in America and other western countries must understand one thing. There is a reason why they opted for these countries instead of countries of their birth. As such it's onus on them to respect the laws of the lands chosen by them and further they must inculcate these things in their children as well, which is not done in this case.
10
"..a number of young Muslims in the United States have been seduced in recent months by the Islamic State..."
It is fundamentalist Islam that is doing the seducing.
The Wahhabi of Saudi Arabia preach a version of it, and have many millions of petro dollars to promote it. The Iranian Twelvers preach another version of it and, as soon as sanctions are lifted, will have many millions more to promote their competing version.
And it is far from impossible that both Sunni adherents ( Wahabbi, Al Quada, ISIS, Islamic Jihad etc.) and Shia adherents ( Twelvers, Hezbollah, Ansar Allah, etc.) may someday take to duking it out among themselves on the streets of Western nations in order to try to win supremacy among muslims.
Those Americans who have not read the Holy Quran, or perused the Hadith, in the years since 9/11, may be forgiven for not comprehending the allure of the basic faith as taught by the Prophet Muhammed (pbub), and his various successors. Some of which have been at war with each other for over a thousand years.
But walking around scratching our heads while blaming Obama, or Bush, or Clinton, or even Reagan for various international phenomena that have persisted for a millennia is little more than willful ignorance. And perhaps not just a little bit of Western ethnocentrism.
Ask someone who wants to blame Obama for the mess in the Middle East which came first, The First Jihad, or the First Crusade? If they answer, The Crusades, you'll see what I mean.
It is fundamentalist Islam that is doing the seducing.
The Wahhabi of Saudi Arabia preach a version of it, and have many millions of petro dollars to promote it. The Iranian Twelvers preach another version of it and, as soon as sanctions are lifted, will have many millions more to promote their competing version.
And it is far from impossible that both Sunni adherents ( Wahabbi, Al Quada, ISIS, Islamic Jihad etc.) and Shia adherents ( Twelvers, Hezbollah, Ansar Allah, etc.) may someday take to duking it out among themselves on the streets of Western nations in order to try to win supremacy among muslims.
Those Americans who have not read the Holy Quran, or perused the Hadith, in the years since 9/11, may be forgiven for not comprehending the allure of the basic faith as taught by the Prophet Muhammed (pbub), and his various successors. Some of which have been at war with each other for over a thousand years.
But walking around scratching our heads while blaming Obama, or Bush, or Clinton, or even Reagan for various international phenomena that have persisted for a millennia is little more than willful ignorance. And perhaps not just a little bit of Western ethnocentrism.
Ask someone who wants to blame Obama for the mess in the Middle East which came first, The First Jihad, or the First Crusade? If they answer, The Crusades, you'll see what I mean.
7
Perhaps a nihilistic view: whenever anyone commits or attempts to commit an atrocity, the inner circle always says "but he/she was the smartest, nicest person I ever met."
1
I'm guessing they'd be in for a big surprise once they got there: the desert heat, thelack of hygenic facilities, the "new" ISIS interpretation of Islam as condoning raoe, even among ten year olds. Do they think they'd have plum positions within the organization? Any choices at all?
My, my, my. The folly of youth. Such a waste of young lives.
My, my, my. The folly of youth. Such a waste of young lives.
7
In what seems like an eternity ago, conversions to Islam, such as those by Lew Alcindor, Cassius Clay and Cat Stevens were met with bemused curiosity.
Eric Hoffer wrote, "No one is as fanatical as the recently converted". At the very least, recent converts often throw themselves into their new faith. My neighbors converted to Judaism and are now among the most active members of our small town synagogue. I had a Baptist girlfriend who became Roman Catholic, and in no time, she had mastered the minutiae of doctrines and rituals.
There is a pattern to these Muslim conversions among young people, where the time lapse from convert to ISIS sympathizer is short -- to the point, in fact, where they are inextricably linked. If you are the parents of such a convert; before you rejoice in the fact that it seems to have brought "structure and purpose" to your child's life; look for the following signs:
- Sudden use of facile Arabic phrases in speech (but especially, over use of words like "Jihad" that already point to a fundamentalist interpretation). Few Americans convert to Islam via Bengali or Malay!
- Sudden use of "Islamic" dress, like the Hijab, Thobe or untrimmed beard.
- Judgmental comments about Alcohol, Music or family behavior.
- Shedding of "pre-conversion" friends and/or sudden interest in physical fitness or "survivalism".
- Adoption of a "grievance narrative" regarding Muslims, The Middle East, Colonialism, American "Imperialism", The Palestinians, etc.
Eric Hoffer wrote, "No one is as fanatical as the recently converted". At the very least, recent converts often throw themselves into their new faith. My neighbors converted to Judaism and are now among the most active members of our small town synagogue. I had a Baptist girlfriend who became Roman Catholic, and in no time, she had mastered the minutiae of doctrines and rituals.
There is a pattern to these Muslim conversions among young people, where the time lapse from convert to ISIS sympathizer is short -- to the point, in fact, where they are inextricably linked. If you are the parents of such a convert; before you rejoice in the fact that it seems to have brought "structure and purpose" to your child's life; look for the following signs:
- Sudden use of facile Arabic phrases in speech (but especially, over use of words like "Jihad" that already point to a fundamentalist interpretation). Few Americans convert to Islam via Bengali or Malay!
- Sudden use of "Islamic" dress, like the Hijab, Thobe or untrimmed beard.
- Judgmental comments about Alcohol, Music or family behavior.
- Shedding of "pre-conversion" friends and/or sudden interest in physical fitness or "survivalism".
- Adoption of a "grievance narrative" regarding Muslims, The Middle East, Colonialism, American "Imperialism", The Palestinians, etc.
9
One must wonder what the FBI said to entrap these people.
And if the FBI has become so skilled at wooing people toward ISIS, and then arrests them, why can't the FBI use its talents for good? Why didn't they persuade them to stay in the U.S.?
Since ISIS uses social media for recruitment, I am strongly in favor of the West doing the same. ISIS knows how to find and woo candidates...which buttons to push. The West's response should be to use their psychological skills to find the weak links, the ones drawn to ISIS, and persuade them from whatever lures them to ISIS--talk to them about their lives, and help them choose more productive and fulfilling routes to take.
What? The Western intelligence and military-industrial complex is not in the business of psychology, one might say. This collective is well-experienced in counterespionage, mental conditioning, psychological profiling--even the persuasive methods of torture. I believe their best psychological skills can be brought to bear to recruit young people toward choices that do not harm and help them work through personal problems. If ISIS can do this, why not the defenders of freedom and democracy?
In this case, there is a young girl discontent with her religion, and perhaps her strict police officer dad. She thinks radical Islam is the path to god. The young man is in love, and will follow her anywhere.
And this is where the FBI, through on-line friendship, could have turned these people in the right direction.
And if the FBI has become so skilled at wooing people toward ISIS, and then arrests them, why can't the FBI use its talents for good? Why didn't they persuade them to stay in the U.S.?
Since ISIS uses social media for recruitment, I am strongly in favor of the West doing the same. ISIS knows how to find and woo candidates...which buttons to push. The West's response should be to use their psychological skills to find the weak links, the ones drawn to ISIS, and persuade them from whatever lures them to ISIS--talk to them about their lives, and help them choose more productive and fulfilling routes to take.
What? The Western intelligence and military-industrial complex is not in the business of psychology, one might say. This collective is well-experienced in counterespionage, mental conditioning, psychological profiling--even the persuasive methods of torture. I believe their best psychological skills can be brought to bear to recruit young people toward choices that do not harm and help them work through personal problems. If ISIS can do this, why not the defenders of freedom and democracy?
In this case, there is a young girl discontent with her religion, and perhaps her strict police officer dad. She thinks radical Islam is the path to god. The young man is in love, and will follow her anywhere.
And this is where the FBI, through on-line friendship, could have turned these people in the right direction.
14
Good for the FBI. ISIS is anti-human, destroying artists and art, keeping little girls from going to school and killing those who worship of other religions.
They crucify people. They drown and burn them. They rape and enslave women.
These facts are not hidden or obscure, anyone can read them. Surely an educated person willing to travel abroad and illegally cross borders should have come across them. Entrapment? They should have opened a newspaper. The crimes against humanity by ISIS not only didn't phase them, they wanted to join in.
I have no sympathy for these two, who at best may be fools but who probably are quiet sociopaths. They were willing to assist monsters in destroying the lives of millions of people in the Middle East/North Africa.
Throw away the key.
They crucify people. They drown and burn them. They rape and enslave women.
These facts are not hidden or obscure, anyone can read them. Surely an educated person willing to travel abroad and illegally cross borders should have come across them. Entrapment? They should have opened a newspaper. The crimes against humanity by ISIS not only didn't phase them, they wanted to join in.
I have no sympathy for these two, who at best may be fools but who probably are quiet sociopaths. They were willing to assist monsters in destroying the lives of millions of people in the Middle East/North Africa.
Throw away the key.
101
I think this is over-simplification in terms of how young people think. They are not "quiet sociopaths" but idealists who found their own religion and cause to fight for, no matter how much it debases humanity. Young military recruits do this all of the time as young minds are easy to remold.
• Today, the young woman, Jaelyn Young, 19, and the young man, her fiancé, Muhammad Dakhlalla, 22, are in federal custody, arrested on suspicion of trying to travel from Mississippi to Syria to join the Islamic State.
Lovely honeymoon ahead either way.
• “Something must have happened to her,” Elizabeth Treloar, 18, said of Ms. Young, her friend. “She’s too levelheaded, too smart to do this.”
The U.S. War Without End against "terror".
"Those who can make you believe absurdities (e.g.: US/ISIS), can make you commit atrocities." ~ VOLTAIRE
Lovely honeymoon ahead either way.
• “Something must have happened to her,” Elizabeth Treloar, 18, said of Ms. Young, her friend. “She’s too levelheaded, too smart to do this.”
The U.S. War Without End against "terror".
"Those who can make you believe absurdities (e.g.: US/ISIS), can make you commit atrocities." ~ VOLTAIRE
5
Kudos to the FBI. They did a great job catching this couple. People who have rock solid lives becoming so radicalized and misguided enough to betray their own country is highly disappointing. It's a shame that these two individuals have ruined what could have been promising lives.
5
I am an old white man, out of college almost 60 years, but I dimly recall having new and radical thoughts when I was impressionaable by the freedom of thought on a college campus. These kids need psychological help and guidance, not imprisonment. No doubt, they were entrapped, even encouraged by the FBI agents. Had they gotten to Syria, and seen the attrocities, they might have changed their minds about how great ISIS seemed to be.
This speaks of something very sad about our society. Deep in their souls, this young black woman and Muslim man much had deep feelins of resentment about race and religious prejudice in America.
We need to address prejudice in America.
This speaks of something very sad about our society. Deep in their souls, this young black woman and Muslim man much had deep feelins of resentment about race and religious prejudice in America.
We need to address prejudice in America.
13
The FBI did not entice this couple to purchase their airline tickets, or entice them toward lying to their family about a honeymoon trip. I assume these young people were better able to complete their schooling with at least some support from their devoted families, who deserved better than this betrayal.
The FBI did not entice or force the fingers of this young woman to type into her computer the words she used to rejoice in the Chattanooga killings. Perhaps someone should put her in a room with one of the women who is now without her husband, and whose young children are now without their father. This well-supported young lady should be forced to look at the finances of the young widows and mothers who have lost their chief bread-winner.
The FBI did not entice this young woman into stating her belief that ISIS is unfairly represented in the media. This level of delusion, in the face of well-documented atrocities, goes beyond delusional into the mode of dangerously irresponsible behavior.
These young people could have returned to harm us, because that is the firm credo of the group they were on their way to joining. If anyone can be so easily "enticed," with no minds of their own, then prison may un-entice them.
These young people have betrayed their hard-working and devoted families, and have no concern for the families of those killed in Chattanooga. They have no concern for their own families who have worked so hard to give them a home as they were growing up.
The FBI did not entice or force the fingers of this young woman to type into her computer the words she used to rejoice in the Chattanooga killings. Perhaps someone should put her in a room with one of the women who is now without her husband, and whose young children are now without their father. This well-supported young lady should be forced to look at the finances of the young widows and mothers who have lost their chief bread-winner.
The FBI did not entice this young woman into stating her belief that ISIS is unfairly represented in the media. This level of delusion, in the face of well-documented atrocities, goes beyond delusional into the mode of dangerously irresponsible behavior.
These young people could have returned to harm us, because that is the firm credo of the group they were on their way to joining. If anyone can be so easily "enticed," with no minds of their own, then prison may un-entice them.
These young people have betrayed their hard-working and devoted families, and have no concern for the families of those killed in Chattanooga. They have no concern for their own families who have worked so hard to give them a home as they were growing up.
15
I am haunted by the pictures of the faces of these beautiful bright children.
Full adulthood is not reached until the age of 25 or more. Until then, you have a little fool who thinks he knows everything. The supposed twenty year sentences these children face are themselves a joke. Let them reach the age of 25 or so and their present stupidity will dissipate like mist.
Taking their idealism seriously is itself a mistake. Kids need adult supervision. That is the basic lesson of "The Lord of the Flies".
The best suggestions I could offer would be, parents need to supervise their children better, watch the use of the internet, and limit their allowances. It is the parents fault if these kids can afford plane tickets.
Do you object to the dismissive edge in my comments? Fine. It is time someone pointed out that young people need a bit of life experience before they deserve to be taken seriously.
Full adulthood is not reached until the age of 25 or more. Until then, you have a little fool who thinks he knows everything. The supposed twenty year sentences these children face are themselves a joke. Let them reach the age of 25 or so and their present stupidity will dissipate like mist.
Taking their idealism seriously is itself a mistake. Kids need adult supervision. That is the basic lesson of "The Lord of the Flies".
The best suggestions I could offer would be, parents need to supervise their children better, watch the use of the internet, and limit their allowances. It is the parents fault if these kids can afford plane tickets.
Do you object to the dismissive edge in my comments? Fine. It is time someone pointed out that young people need a bit of life experience before they deserve to be taken seriously.
5
How many people do they need to kill before these "young" people are to be taken seriously?
4
I just hope we can take this opportunity to find out how they came to this plan of action. We've got young people, alive, who can tell us what radicalized them. I suspect we will find a sad, misplaced sense of idealism here. But maybe not.
1
Are we asking the wrong question? Perhaps we should be looking into not the appeal of ISIS, but rather what was missing in the lives of these two "Mississippi success stories" that they felt more fulfilled by turning their lives over to a group such as ISIS.
In the 60's many of my generation rejected the spiritual emptiness of the American Dream of money and war and material gain. What has changed? It's still all about money and war and getting as much as you can and the hell with everyone else. These two kids in Mississippi, and apparently many like them, see nothing noble or inspiring in all that they see around them. Enter ISIS, drawing them like moths to a flame. Perhaps if we lit a few more candles they, and the rest of us as well, would be better off. And groups such as ISIS would wither and die.
In the 60's many of my generation rejected the spiritual emptiness of the American Dream of money and war and material gain. What has changed? It's still all about money and war and getting as much as you can and the hell with everyone else. These two kids in Mississippi, and apparently many like them, see nothing noble or inspiring in all that they see around them. Enter ISIS, drawing them like moths to a flame. Perhaps if we lit a few more candles they, and the rest of us as well, would be better off. And groups such as ISIS would wither and die.
10
There is education and then there is thinking clearly. I remember the 1960s when many American young people were joining SDS and plotting a revolution in the United States out of misguided idealism. Almost all of them were college students. My wife at the time told me at one point that she was making her body hard for the revolution (I'm sure that that memory would make her blush today.). I was approached by SDS members and asked to join, but I replied, "Before I join your attempt to tear down this government, answer one question: What are you going to replace it with?" None of them ever had an answer. They never seemed to have thought of what would happen after the revolution. So, I did not join them and cautioned them to reconsider what they were doing. I think a lot of young people who cherish the Islamic faith can get caught up in the idealism of creating a more perfect world, but are blind to the consequences of what they might create: a repressive monster that will smother them and eat up their lives.
9
I suspect they don't believe all the stories of rape and murder are true. My guess is that they have confused not believing everything you hear with believing nothing that you hear. It's quite a common mistake. The best way to disabuse them of their illusions about Daesh would probably be to let them go there.
137
Agreed. Let them go. Buy them one way tickets. And then put them on the known terrorist list and don't ever allow them back to the US.
And never be allowed back into the United States.
Why the hysteria? ISIS is trying to build a civil society and is advertising for young couples. It's not as if they'd actually done anything wrong - like harming people.
2
Why would a young person seeking a Utopian idealized society want to join a fundamentalist religion? It is normal teenage human nature to want to be a part of a heroic ideal that inspires one. That is the image our armed forces use to attract new recruits. Religions do the same.
In American society the youth are confronted with conflicting beliefs, conservatives vs liberal, guns are good vs bad, overt racism vs acceptance, unions against capitalism, and now Islam vs Judaism /Christianity. Above all is the constant bombardment of advertising that saturates American TV and now internet. The public discourse is one of conflicting ideology mixed with endless sales pitches that a sensitive youth may find appalling. Anyone wanting a better world than this is vulnerable to those who offer a Santa Claus religion that will unite the true believer with those who share the same view. Democracy exposes us to all of our failings and weaknesses and the requires tolerance, compassion and respect for our adversaries. Only experience can give one this truth.
In American society the youth are confronted with conflicting beliefs, conservatives vs liberal, guns are good vs bad, overt racism vs acceptance, unions against capitalism, and now Islam vs Judaism /Christianity. Above all is the constant bombardment of advertising that saturates American TV and now internet. The public discourse is one of conflicting ideology mixed with endless sales pitches that a sensitive youth may find appalling. Anyone wanting a better world than this is vulnerable to those who offer a Santa Claus religion that will unite the true believer with those who share the same view. Democracy exposes us to all of our failings and weaknesses and the requires tolerance, compassion and respect for our adversaries. Only experience can give one this truth.
5
Young people fervently devoted to waging war overseas, sounds hauntingly familiar.
2
Don't be too perplexed. One of them is named Mohammed and the other perhaps got fed up with watching young black men being treated by criminals.
1
By her black male police officer father with 14 military deployments the latest to Afghanistan?
2
I could never understand why some people are ready to exchange their freedom for a membership in Islamic State. Such a foolish choice... But IMHO: media are partly to blame in it. They are talking about ISIS every day, 2-3 times a day. Too much "PR".
1
It is called the right to choose.
We are a free nation and anyone can choose to join whatever group they wish. It is not a choice I would make but hey, they did not ask me.
We are a free nation and anyone can choose to join whatever group they wish. It is not a choice I would make but hey, they did not ask me.
The girl's father refused to sign the contract for her to be married. This father knew something was not right. It will be interesting to hear what he has to say.
9
Until we are honest about reporting our own behavior as well as theirs, we will never understand. This statement is not meant to equate our behavior to theirs--only to point out that honesty is needed to understand ISIS's magnetism (especially to young people) and to prevent the terrible losses which result from it.
I think i will want to live next to an axe murderer . Their neighbors always decibel them a nice, peace loving people.
Earlier this summer I sat in the food court of the local mall watching my teens running around before the movie. A friendly-strangers conversation ensued with a lovely older woman who years ago had emigrated from Syria. As we talked, she looked at my teens and warned me to keep a good eye on them. "ISIS recruiters are everywhere," she said. "They are here though no one knows it. No child is safe. I am so lucky my children are grown and are no longer vulnerable. No one in this country has any idea what's going on." Bluntly, I pointed out that my kids are white, happy, upper middle class. She shook her head and reiterated, "No child is safe. You have no idea."
16
Oh, I believe her. I still remember the religious outburst when Christian preachers discovered television. Some were very effective speakers whether you agreed with them or not. Still they, like others, insisted that you must come to God and find Him in your own way. Is it a personal responsibility or a social one? Those who haven't given up on an Islamic society contend its the state's responsibility to gather and convert the masses. Europe witnessed how easily religion could be used as a political tool by its rulers and the need for a secular state. Today one's religion can lead you to an ethical standard which reveals morality. Religions realize that they must go forth and convert each generation to the faith. It can't be handed down. This was unsuitable to those kids. Perhaps they felt it was a far too difficult decision to leave in the hands of the masses. Whatever they found they would defend their decision to seek a better life.
"Ms. Young believed that Muslims and groups like the Islamic State had been unfairly caricatured in the West, Ms. Treloar said." So.... she decided to join ISIS? Not read the news about their rape program? Not work for a relief organization? Not do any of a dozen things that might be helpful to someone? This has all the signs of brainwashing.
4
We continually ascribe political motives to behaviour that is better explained as developmental and emotional. These two neither hated America nor loved Islam. They are too young to do either. Like teenage Army recruits, they're looking to make a mark in the world, to establish an identity, to feel alive. They crave "real life" and the more that media describe ISIS and terrorism as some ultimate confrontation between good and evil, the more young people will be attracted because that's where the action seems to be.
136
Teen age Army recruits, like I was at one time, want to survive and get some benefits. They don't want to fight wars; they want to eat and to breathe. I will make an exception to some young recruits like those after 9/11.
It sounds like they were a pair of zealous believers who no longer wanted to deal with this society.
How come I am not perplexed at all. It worries me that Americans are so surprised by this. We must all learn from what has been happening in the UK for years already. Muslim teenagers all over America are growing up in strict religious households. They soon discover that everything they love about Islam is at odds with the contemporary democratic country they were born in. Awkward and isolated from society their young minds are easily influenced by the "heroic" efforts of Islamic fighters. What is scary is that Muslim parents are not even aware of their kids radicalization. To me this is worrying. And while we are familiar with depressed teenagers taking their own lives when these teenagers become suicidal they will happily take out American lives along the way.
91
I'm 73 years old and have traveled extensively outside the US and lived in 3rd world countries while in the Peace Corps--these are probably the only reasons I have sufficient perspective to understand that the US is more than the morally corrupt country it appears. It is embarassing to read that only 3rd world countries still have the death penalty, that civilized countries maintain a reasonable ratio of CEO pay to worker pay (less than 50:1) whereas we have 900:1. I could go on.
So I can easily understand how young people can become disenchanted with their homeland. What I can't understand is why they would choose ISIS. I wish someone would have an explanation for thAT!
So I can easily understand how young people can become disenchanted with their homeland. What I can't understand is why they would choose ISIS. I wish someone would have an explanation for thAT!
2
I agree. So as the moral decline (or the moral decline merely is more transparent) continues in the West what are we to do? We are truly our own worst enemy but no patriotic American wants to admit it.
It might be more appropriate to say that the kids feel like Robinson Crusoe and wonder what they are doing here? More importantly is there any way off this island for a return home?
The publicity that this case is getting appears to be a well orchestrated attempt by the authorities to warn would-be jihadists and young people toying with extremists views: stay away from the Internet. The idea is to supress on-line recruiting activities of ISIS and similar organizations. I can see the good in that. Having said that, I hope that a court of law will establish the actual extent of crimes committed, which judging by what the article reports do not seem to merit 20 years in jail or anything close to that.
5
Why not 20 years?? Didn't you read yesterday's lead article about what ISIS is doing? Mass sexual slavery? These 2 were on their way to join that group; the husband was going to be a fighter for them. What prison term would you want for someone caught trying to join the Nazi army in WWII?
2
I believe this was a case of romanticism exacerbated by FBI agents provocateurs. What probably started out as a childish fantasy was exploited by an agency with something to gain - a win! Young people this age who have experienced no struggle in life are easily seduced by romanticism, not by reality. Of course, both their lives are ruined now, but better to let them go and join ISIS and find out for themselves (by being tortured or dying). I find it difficult to believe that either of these young people would support ISIS if they actually knew what ISIS was. But in this country where the media and the politicians are lying with every breath, where kids live and learn through social media, expect stupidity. For a HS world history class to spend a month on Palestine is absurd - if a school year is 9 months, why devote more than a couple of days to Palestine? Its a big world with a lot of history, so this is more of the politically correct agenda. I feel sorry for all involved.
7
These two are the unfortunate victims of American policy in the Middle East, without which there would be no ISIS. As long as American planes continue to rain bombs -- the most horrific weapons of "terror" -- upon Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, or anywhere else, it should be no surprise that young people with concern for justice and human rights should be drawn to the those who resist.
5
No surprise? That seems to be taking things very far. ISIS also seems to be killing people in a big way. Unless they don't believe the press at all...
2
Once upon a time there were Marxism-leninism and Communism. The iillusion of an egalitarian society where everyone contributed to the common good aallured many young minds to left wing philosophies. Some went too far and joined terrorist groups (remember the Red Brigades in Italy, and the similar groups in Germany and France?). But the majority exercised their democratic voting rights within the societies they lived in, trying to elect more left-leaning politicians and trying to promote socialist legislation. The violent extremists remained a small fringe. Eventually the collapse of the rotten lie that was the Soviet Union sent the hard core Marxists to the dustheap of history, but many of the positive values expressed by the Left remain fundamental pillars of many modern societies today (workers' rights, women equality, civil rights, social security to name a few).
But ISIS? No matter how you look at it, there is nothing "good" that anyone sane of mind could ever see in it. Raping, pillaging, murdering, committing genocide, enforcing a brutal and violent control system? A dictatorship of mindless fanatics? What could any sane, educated person ever see in such a satanic worldview?
I can only conclude that ISIS must have inadvertently tapped into a previously unknown part of the human mind, where the trigger of "religious" justification unhinges some weak minds from any social constraints and turns them into psychotic, sociopathic murdering animals.
But ISIS? No matter how you look at it, there is nothing "good" that anyone sane of mind could ever see in it. Raping, pillaging, murdering, committing genocide, enforcing a brutal and violent control system? A dictatorship of mindless fanatics? What could any sane, educated person ever see in such a satanic worldview?
I can only conclude that ISIS must have inadvertently tapped into a previously unknown part of the human mind, where the trigger of "religious" justification unhinges some weak minds from any social constraints and turns them into psychotic, sociopathic murdering animals.
4
It seems that they had bought into the ISIL propaganda that all the news about its atrocities are Western lies. They need to be deprogrammed, if possible. Otherwise, sadly, they need to remain in prison for the safety of society.
3
A lot of people are judging and blaming these two young adults. They came from perfectly happy families, so there's no reason for them to have gone astray, right? But nobody at that age veers into supporting and wanting to join a sociopathic, violent, murderous organization without there being a significant cause.
Most people can't see through the 'happy', 'sane', 'normal' veneer that families create and that can mask control and bullying dynamics that some (more sensitive) members experience as horrifically punishing. Who can they talk to about it? Everybody thinks the family is perfect.
There's often a lot of repressed rage underpinning the control, a lot of hypocrisy and absence of awareness. Those sensitive ones feel compelled to play the game and pretend that they're also happy or face isolation and judgment. They end up being isolated anyway. That's a very painful place to be in.
I don’t know if the picture I’ve painted is true for these two, but I do know that it’s more common among families than anybody ever cares to admit and it seems a whole lot more likely than that they are two sociopaths with an inherent tendency to violence and mindlessness that’s just emerged out of the blue, for no reason at all.
Most people can't see through the 'happy', 'sane', 'normal' veneer that families create and that can mask control and bullying dynamics that some (more sensitive) members experience as horrifically punishing. Who can they talk to about it? Everybody thinks the family is perfect.
There's often a lot of repressed rage underpinning the control, a lot of hypocrisy and absence of awareness. Those sensitive ones feel compelled to play the game and pretend that they're also happy or face isolation and judgment. They end up being isolated anyway. That's a very painful place to be in.
I don’t know if the picture I’ve painted is true for these two, but I do know that it’s more common among families than anybody ever cares to admit and it seems a whole lot more likely than that they are two sociopaths with an inherent tendency to violence and mindlessness that’s just emerged out of the blue, for no reason at all.
84
You're right. It is never the responsibility of the adult who made the decisions they made. Having Nazi overlords did not absolve the members of the SS for the atrocities they engaged in, nor will it ever absolve people like this. We know they knew all the reports. At best they thought it was all lies. In that case you do more research. You don't run off to join them. These are not the "premature anti-fascists" who went to fight in pre-WW II Spain. They are people who used their faith to conveniently blind themselves. My guess is, in the end, if they had gone, they would have gotten drunk on the power they now wielded over those they oppressed- for whatever time they had before they were destroyed themselves.
There are so many people on Earth who have so little, and are so mistreated. I'll save my sympathies for them, and not for these two, thanks.
There are so many people on Earth who have so little, and are so mistreated. I'll save my sympathies for them, and not for these two, thanks.
1
Clearly, they weren't educated about the ways of the world. Having completed high school and in your first year of college is not "educated." It's in the midst of an education, that which consists solely of reading books and classes and tests. To be educated, you have to spend time reading, talking, not partying and listening to idiots on the internet. At 19, not many people are "educated." So for that reason, they probably were unaware that ISIS does the horrible things that it does - they were shown and chose to believe good things about it. They would have found that to be all lies.
I just don't get it. It's utterly amazing. It's also utterly amazing to me that the FBI could identify radicalized sympathies from a few idiotic Facebook postings.
Neither of these "kids" fit the pattern, neither openly broadcast their views, and the one I'd suspect more leaned towards jihad--the boy, and son of a devout practitioner--wasn't apparently the instigator.
What I find most troubling is the very secrets they were able to hide, And the fact this apparently happened so very very quickly. What they find attractive about helping ISIS, as more and more sordid details about rape, torture, and inhumanity come to light, is totally foreign to me. A cheerleader wants to help creeps who behead for a living? Two allegedly smart kids in the heartland, the deep south, hook up to join ISIS?
It's creepy, crazy, and alien to my way of thinking, and, apparently, the mores of the town. Their parents must be devastated. America should be devastated. That the most unsuspected among us can get drawn to a region of terror and so easily "converted" to a cause so evil and alien to their own experience is frightening.
It's no wonder they go after the young. In some ways, they keep secrets better than older people who have a deeper tradition of sharing their views.
Neither of these "kids" fit the pattern, neither openly broadcast their views, and the one I'd suspect more leaned towards jihad--the boy, and son of a devout practitioner--wasn't apparently the instigator.
What I find most troubling is the very secrets they were able to hide, And the fact this apparently happened so very very quickly. What they find attractive about helping ISIS, as more and more sordid details about rape, torture, and inhumanity come to light, is totally foreign to me. A cheerleader wants to help creeps who behead for a living? Two allegedly smart kids in the heartland, the deep south, hook up to join ISIS?
It's creepy, crazy, and alien to my way of thinking, and, apparently, the mores of the town. Their parents must be devastated. America should be devastated. That the most unsuspected among us can get drawn to a region of terror and so easily "converted" to a cause so evil and alien to their own experience is frightening.
It's no wonder they go after the young. In some ways, they keep secrets better than older people who have a deeper tradition of sharing their views.
97
And if they actually got over there, she would have become a sex slave, and he a murderer whereas both would have been disillusioned quite quickly by the romanticism of the ISIS adventure and looked for a means to escape, which most likely would have resulted in death.
1
There are a couple of things going on here that should warrant some thought: 1) we are starting to hear of more examples of these type of arrests where law enforcement are actually part of the process (ie, are our authorities luring or coercing in any way? since we don't see the transcripts, its hard to see if the suspects were leading or being led; inferring, would there have been a different outcome if the suspects were left alone? think Ruby Ridge, if authorities had not tried to sell the guns, would the incident have actually occurred?) and 2) how many of us readers have actually ever read an english version of a Isis newsletter or communique? What are they actually saying that is so ideologically challenging to us? Try finding one of those newsletters through a search engine...I don't think you will find one. Unless you use the TOR engine (which btw, built by USNI, then surprisingly we here of arrests of shady activity? hmmm)
10
My thought is that this is like a Rumspringa for them. To stay on a single track from birth to adulthood is too much for a bright, ambitious person. (One portrayal of this is the metaphor in the movie 'The Truman Show'.) I think they needed to find some independence.
2
"We're fighting the terrorists over there so that we don't have to fight them over here." Remember that line?
2
Another two young lives wrecked by the government's creating a crime opportunity where it will never be provable whether this couple would have begun their mad journey without the government's coaching. The FBI tries to make would be possible ISIS supporters paranoid or at least afraid of online communications with people who claim to be ISIS supporters--this of course to cripple ISIS's efforts to use online recruitment. But does such a couple deserve prison for a 'crime' the government created? How horrible is it that young, misguided American young people are talked into crimes and imprisoned by the FBI that is supposed to find real terrorists and their financial supporters and not create them when no real suspects can be found. Is the pain the friends and family of this newly married couple suffer and their own pain something that might have been avoided by a simple visit to the couple by the FBi? Of course, the FBI could have stopped them in their tracks without any need for arrest and prosecution. But this would not have had the deterrent effect the FBI is aiming for with such stings. I hope probation would be the penalty, but it would take a brave and caring judge to let this young married couple get their lives back in order after the FBI so loudly proclaimed their arrest. It would be the right thing to do.
6
There are 300 comments on this article so far but I can't bear reading any more than the first 10 or so. Most Times commenters, as expected, can't seem to accept that Islamic terrorists are here in the US. They blame the police and everything else instead. Once again the apologists think this is entrapment or unfair that these 2 weren't intercepted short of prosecution. Stop thinking like the ACLU for just a second: the point of the article, and the shocking part of it, is that 2 clean-cut college kids joined ISIS because they say they wanted to be part of jihad and because they say that ISIS and Islam are unfairly misrepresented in the US. The obsession and preoccupation with how fairly we view Islam has gone too far and it's time to focus on the terrorists within the US instead. We'll be where the UK has sunk to in terms of coddling Islam in no time if Times readers had their way. This article makes me sicker than yesterday's amazing piece about the mass sexual slavery carried out by ISIS and the Sharia courts. If the Vatican were doing any of this, the Times readership would have demanded that we drop a nuclear bomb on it already....
3
ISIS offers something rarely discussed let alone offered in most of the world: a vision. By the standards of the vast majority, it is a vision from hell, but it is a vision. Such is largely lacking elsewhere.
Western Europe no longer supplies the liberal, tolerant, humanist vision which, even if slowly and through imperialism, spread around the world.
America's vision reached its peak with the democratization and reconstruction of Germany and Japan after World War II, followed by the landing on the moon. Since then it has treaded water, with a brief revival produced by the election of a Black President, which turned out to be more circumstantial than significant.
China clearly projects a vision, but it is a vision only for the Chinese. By and large the rest of the world is occupied with trying to govern, vision nowhere on the agenda.
What this leaves is a vacuum of spirit, a vacuum of grand purpose, a vacuum of transcendent vision. Electronic consumer culture, the only current offering of the West, cannot fill this void. ISIS, on the other hand, does fill this void, providing meaning, purpose, and a sense of belonging greater than the confines of individual existence. And lest we are tempted to pooh pooh the attractions of Hell as something peculiar to another culture, let us remember that what people largely read and most certainly remember is Dante's Inferno, not his Paradiso.
ISIS may be hell, but hell trumps a void for enough people to produce an ascending ISIS.
Western Europe no longer supplies the liberal, tolerant, humanist vision which, even if slowly and through imperialism, spread around the world.
America's vision reached its peak with the democratization and reconstruction of Germany and Japan after World War II, followed by the landing on the moon. Since then it has treaded water, with a brief revival produced by the election of a Black President, which turned out to be more circumstantial than significant.
China clearly projects a vision, but it is a vision only for the Chinese. By and large the rest of the world is occupied with trying to govern, vision nowhere on the agenda.
What this leaves is a vacuum of spirit, a vacuum of grand purpose, a vacuum of transcendent vision. Electronic consumer culture, the only current offering of the West, cannot fill this void. ISIS, on the other hand, does fill this void, providing meaning, purpose, and a sense of belonging greater than the confines of individual existence. And lest we are tempted to pooh pooh the attractions of Hell as something peculiar to another culture, let us remember that what people largely read and most certainly remember is Dante's Inferno, not his Paradiso.
ISIS may be hell, but hell trumps a void for enough people to produce an ascending ISIS.
200
An excellent and well-written assessment of our times and what our visionless culture has created. Many young people with no hope of "moving up the ladder" , having an economically hopeful future, a country where democracy and equalty have both lost ground are vulnerable to the vision of a place where everything has a purpose and meaning, whether hellish or not.
Those of us who've seen 70 plus years of American culture, know our best days are behind, with little hope that middle class youth will feel part of something bigger than themselves, where civic duty will become part of our vision. Our "religions" our politics or causes seem so fleeting in the face of a lack of feeling we are part of the same community. It is not simply perplexing why these two wanted to join ISIS, it is a sad commentary on ourselves.
Those of us who've seen 70 plus years of American culture, know our best days are behind, with little hope that middle class youth will feel part of something bigger than themselves, where civic duty will become part of our vision. Our "religions" our politics or causes seem so fleeting in the face of a lack of feeling we are part of the same community. It is not simply perplexing why these two wanted to join ISIS, it is a sad commentary on ourselves.
1
A place does not provide a vision. A philosophy or faith does. READ. The knowledge is there, reach for it. If you are vision-less, you are also a failure in curiosity and learning.
4
In Reply To Cityfisher:
Thank you for the compliment !
I must admit I do not quite share your view of "then" and now." As one who came of age in the Sixties I am constrained to remember all my dead friends and acquaintances of the period: Nam, drugs, cars, sports, "politics", etc. More significantly, I try to keep perspective by remembering how true is the saying, "There but for fortune go I."
The specific values many of us then espoused were most definitely better by any definition held by 99% of Americans than those of ISIS. Yet, I am not certain but that a significant part of us held their vision with the same alienated, unconsciously self-righteous certainty of many of these young people who go off to join ISIS.
Yes, the difference in values is of paramount significance, but if we want to understand and effect a change in the current phenomenon, it is important we understand their motivations and not project on to them our own perspective.
I do not think our current dysfunctional and corrupt Congress, as well as media that profit from invective, hate, and polarization are at the root of the problem. Rather, I believe they are more emblematic of it. What we suffer from is a dearth of quality leaders who have both vision, credibility, and the skills to lead.
The leftist Sixties decried leaders per se, while elevating personal over communal values and responsibility. Those chickens proliferated pervasively Left, Right, and middle, and now have come home to roost.
Thank you for the compliment !
I must admit I do not quite share your view of "then" and now." As one who came of age in the Sixties I am constrained to remember all my dead friends and acquaintances of the period: Nam, drugs, cars, sports, "politics", etc. More significantly, I try to keep perspective by remembering how true is the saying, "There but for fortune go I."
The specific values many of us then espoused were most definitely better by any definition held by 99% of Americans than those of ISIS. Yet, I am not certain but that a significant part of us held their vision with the same alienated, unconsciously self-righteous certainty of many of these young people who go off to join ISIS.
Yes, the difference in values is of paramount significance, but if we want to understand and effect a change in the current phenomenon, it is important we understand their motivations and not project on to them our own perspective.
I do not think our current dysfunctional and corrupt Congress, as well as media that profit from invective, hate, and polarization are at the root of the problem. Rather, I believe they are more emblematic of it. What we suffer from is a dearth of quality leaders who have both vision, credibility, and the skills to lead.
The leftist Sixties decried leaders per se, while elevating personal over communal values and responsibility. Those chickens proliferated pervasively Left, Right, and middle, and now have come home to roost.
1
ISIS stands now. to most Arabs and Moslems as the bastion of defiance and resistance against the USA, Israel and the Judo/Chritian alliance in general .
Despite the latter's. ceaseless efforts to vilify and demonize it which effort is proof to many of its genuine credentials as the arch enemy and major opposition and resistance to the said alliance.
It's overwhelming Sunni appeal comes from the image it successfully imparted as an ARAB nationalist/Sunni Moslem movement; the coalition that a majority has come to deem as the crucial joint front that can combat effectively the USA, Israel and their Arab official auxiliaries and subcontractors..As such it is deemed by the same majority as Iraq's and Saddam's political heir ; a feeling strongly enhanced watching Iranian practices in the USA destroyed Iraq.
Another major attraction feature of ISIS is the USA led international military alliance against it which managed to harness together such seemingly incompatible allies as Iran and Saudi Arabia, the USA and Syria etc all deemed as enemies of progressive Arab nationalism and progressive Islam!
It's psychological, intellectual,and Arab/Moslem appeal as the arch enemy of the Judo/Chritian alliance nce has outpaced its physical presence , is stinging in unexpected milieus and environments and is growing!
Despite the latter's. ceaseless efforts to vilify and demonize it which effort is proof to many of its genuine credentials as the arch enemy and major opposition and resistance to the said alliance.
It's overwhelming Sunni appeal comes from the image it successfully imparted as an ARAB nationalist/Sunni Moslem movement; the coalition that a majority has come to deem as the crucial joint front that can combat effectively the USA, Israel and their Arab official auxiliaries and subcontractors..As such it is deemed by the same majority as Iraq's and Saddam's political heir ; a feeling strongly enhanced watching Iranian practices in the USA destroyed Iraq.
Another major attraction feature of ISIS is the USA led international military alliance against it which managed to harness together such seemingly incompatible allies as Iran and Saudi Arabia, the USA and Syria etc all deemed as enemies of progressive Arab nationalism and progressive Islam!
It's psychological, intellectual,and Arab/Moslem appeal as the arch enemy of the Judo/Chritian alliance nce has outpaced its physical presence , is stinging in unexpected milieus and environments and is growing!
4
If you call policy-sanctified rape, beheading, setting people on fire as part of "the bastion of defiance and resistance against the USA, Israel and the Judo/Chritian alliance in general" then the rest of the world need to get together and put these monsters out of their and our misery.
3
Keep your propaganda and bait to yourself. Vast vast majority of Muslims, including me, see ISIS and ISIL for what it is: an extremist and terrorist political organization sprung up in the vacuum created by illegitimate Iraq invasion and early withdrawal by the western power and Syrian political and refugee crisis. ISIS has no basis either in Islamic theology or in Islamic jurisprudence.
We have our distinguished scholars and jurists rooted in our tradition to guide us, and we don't the nihilistic approach of ISIS.
We have our distinguished scholars and jurists rooted in our tradition to guide us, and we don't the nihilistic approach of ISIS.
20
Mr Mohamed of Dallas, Texas
Good for you what you believe in.
However please tell me, enlighten me, what is it that brings Iran and Saudi Arabia into one joint military alliance, although, if my memory does not fail me , they are STILL at war in Syria or the USA and Assad for that matter ??
your response is eagerly awaited and will be appreciated
Good for you what you believe in.
However please tell me, enlighten me, what is it that brings Iran and Saudi Arabia into one joint military alliance, although, if my memory does not fail me , they are STILL at war in Syria or the USA and Assad for that matter ??
your response is eagerly awaited and will be appreciated
1
As far as what their motives may be, it is possible that a sociological explanation may be found. But the rationale may also be speculative.
One thing for sure, however, our government has to treat as criminal activity any attempt to join ISIS, an organization set up for murder, rape, and destruction.
George Bush malevolent escapede in Iraq has had its issue in ISIS, something yet more horrible than Saddam Hussein.
We must try to find a way to stop ISIS that doesn't start another ISIS, lest we fall into the notorious Bush trap for political fools.
I hope we find that way, but it may not exist.
One thing for sure, however, our government has to treat as criminal activity any attempt to join ISIS, an organization set up for murder, rape, and destruction.
George Bush malevolent escapede in Iraq has had its issue in ISIS, something yet more horrible than Saddam Hussein.
We must try to find a way to stop ISIS that doesn't start another ISIS, lest we fall into the notorious Bush trap for political fools.
I hope we find that way, but it may not exist.
10
Religious faith empowers people, promises them meaning in chaos, a more just world where any atrocity can be glorified as the will of god. Civilization is more vulnerable to those who need to believe in a god than to any weapon of mass destruction. The recorded history of civilization has witnessed the destructiveness of religions--all in the name of justice, peace and heavenly love. These people can carryout their god's act of love by beheading an innocent or by setting off a nuclear weapon and to them the act has profound fulfillment of god's love.
8
This young couple has blindflolded on the really of the world ISIS sad news
1
I would encourage people to read the criminal complaint. The naive idealism of Jaelyn and Muhammad is obvious. The encouragement of the FBI agents is obvious.Entrapment will certainly be an issue. They had absolutely no contact with anyone in ISIS.Their quasi ISIS contacts were the FBI undercover agents. Before making a judgment the complaint should be read. The texts of the FBI agents will be dispositive.
20
So the next logical question people should be asking is, ." Where is the friend who introduced Ms Young to Islam? Is that friend still in the U.S.?
11
Poor fools, they would've been brutally disabused of their delusions post-haste upon arrival in Syria. I recently heard a piece about some young people from neighboring Middle East countries who, after a few days of volunteering and fighting for ISIS, wanted to go home. But of course they couldn't. The young man was crying that he just wanted to go home. He'd made a big mistake. I do believe the offer of a purpose, a crusade a mission is very appealing to the young idealistic mind. Doesn't take long to realize what a mistake it is. This is a tragic story.
13
What is the FBI doing in this story? Where do we draw the line between surveillance and entrapment? These are kids who, alas, would likely hurt none but themselves and their families by this quixotic adventure. They pose no threat but to themselves, and I have to wonder why the FBI is interested in internet posts by teenagers in a small southern town.
8
This couple sounds pretty naive, not to say dumb, to be engaging in all this interaction with an unknown recruiter of ISIS or whatever organization over email. I do not know how these things work, but I would imagine people are recruited by flesh and blood militants in some context like a community or church. And, could they just leave the US as in a honeymoon and arrive in Turkey, or wherever they were going, and "join in" what? This sounds like a dumb movie plots.
Ms. Young "rejoiced" at the recent killing of servicemen.
"Ms. Young was frustrated that family and community members of Starkville did not support the Islamic State."
It hardly sounds as if this young woman had either the compassion or intelligence to become a doctor. She may have wanted to provide medical assistance to ISIS, but I suspect that her only role for them would have been of a sexual nature. She has had a lucky escape.
"Ms. Young was frustrated that family and community members of Starkville did not support the Islamic State."
It hardly sounds as if this young woman had either the compassion or intelligence to become a doctor. She may have wanted to provide medical assistance to ISIS, but I suspect that her only role for them would have been of a sexual nature. She has had a lucky escape.
23
Ms. Young 'rejoiced' at the recent killing of servicemen. Yet, her father is a veteran police officer with 21 years in the military with 14 deployments.
2
Young highly intelligent black Mississippians have little to endear them to the history of white Mississippians. In living memory, many of us recall the travails and attitudes of a young Angela Davis and members of the Black Panthers. Racial integration programs have never been popular in the Deep South. And de facto white racism still pervades Mississippi with its ubiquitous state Confederate flags. Parts of Louisiana also mirror its neighboring state racism. This attractive young highly intelligent black woman however would have been extraordinary to have found white neighbors she would want to defend growing up there, no matter that her father was a veteran. The purpose of racial integration was never to make Americans comfortable about past racial wrongs. Racism may not have been the only reason these promising two people looked for purpose under people with beliefs equally repugnant. But Mississippi's whites have never offered such young blacks as her the kind of honest historical truth, love or human dignity she believed she would find among her husband's religion and culture. And sadly, again, Mississippi is not alone in its alienation by race of such young African Americans. Like most youth, black Mississippians still trust what they see, not what they are told about racial relations by adult white and black myth-makers like Times reporter Richard Fausset and some comments here, dodging the story's racial aspect at every turn.
6
These two people were "entrapped," they were naive, they had ISIS romanticized to them, once they got overseas they'd realize first-hand how barbaric ISIS is, etc. Really? They are both apparently extremely bright and well educated people, who obviously had access to TVs, computers, and every social media platform that exists. They knew full well of the beheadings, the burnings, the kidnappings, the stonings, the mass murders, the sex slaves...(insert any one of another IS depraved atrocities here).
When reading stories such as this, I am thinking what I would imagine many other people are thinking: My God, in terms of upbringing, education, intelligence and apparent temperament, these could be my kids. That's why these stories are so confounding, and so depressing.
If found guilty, maybe their prison sentences shouldn't be 20 years; maybe they should be three to five years, with lifetime passport revocation and GPS and other forms of monitoring.
Beyond that, the best one can hope for is that, one day in the not-too-distant future, they fully appreciate that getting caught by the FBI was the best thing that could possibly have happened to them.
When reading stories such as this, I am thinking what I would imagine many other people are thinking: My God, in terms of upbringing, education, intelligence and apparent temperament, these could be my kids. That's why these stories are so confounding, and so depressing.
If found guilty, maybe their prison sentences shouldn't be 20 years; maybe they should be three to five years, with lifetime passport revocation and GPS and other forms of monitoring.
Beyond that, the best one can hope for is that, one day in the not-too-distant future, they fully appreciate that getting caught by the FBI was the best thing that could possibly have happened to them.
246
Entrapped? Sounds to me like they made a decision. These are not children. Why is it when some one choose to join ISIS we feel the need to see them as insane, entrapped, naive or someone how disadvantage. Maybe they view the cruel and brutual tactics as appropriate for their own purposes. Maybe they are simply horrible people who do not value the lives of theirs. There is no lack of evidence of the behavior and conduct of ISIS toward humans including Muslims. These individuals knew what they were doing.
They made a choice. The best punishment would be to send them to ISIS and let them live in their choice and never be allowed to return.
They made a choice. The best punishment would be to send them to ISIS and let them live in their choice and never be allowed to return.
2
"Entrapped?" Sorry; they're not naïve. You are, if you really believe that.
If these could be your kids, you'd better start keeping closer watch on them.
If these could be your kids, you'd better start keeping closer watch on them.
1
Ms. Young surely stymies me on this front of which you speak - being educated, bright college students. Has she not looked into how women especially are treated within ISIS?
Her plans to help give medical aid is non-existent in the ISIS world. As tough as ISIS is - it has to be horrid for a woman.
Her plans to help give medical aid is non-existent in the ISIS world. As tough as ISIS is - it has to be horrid for a woman.
There are no "less likely candidates" for this than the son of a "Muslim patriarch"? What? Who are the more likely candidates in Mississippi?
23
...maybe black women who are fed up with their men being either in jail, on parole, on probation, out on bail (see other story in today's NYTimes), or shot dead by whoever.
1
How this apparently young and intelligent couple could have escaped the endless barrage of news pieces unearthing the barbaric, insidiously evil nature of ISIL is astounding to " normal " folks, me being one. And the FBI's approached can be argued for sure. However, what were going to see after a comprehensive analysis with interviews ect., hopefully sooner then later, is the astounding, mesmerizing effect of crazy good brainwashing( perhaps the Stockholm Syndrome comes to mind) that can effect a lot more young people then " we " ever thought. We're they monumentally naïve or really academic smart and common sense morons. Hopefully, these young folks( let's be real, possible future monsters) will be slowly integrated and be re-programed( I'm not really comfortable with this term, but couldn't think of anything better) after their day in court( endless years in jail ?, maybe not helpful ?), AND actually show the world( young idealistic lives) the madness of "their" choices and how others should seriously consider the effect of their life changing choices . Call ME naïve, but I hope there just might be some good that could come from this very sad and alarming story.
5
This article is very interesting to me. Usually I would stay this is shocking but nowadays to can never be shocked anymore. The fact that two completely normal looking people could be capable of causing destruction and commotion like this is crazy. This really got me thinking about the people I call my "friends". How well do I really know them. As I was reading the part about there friends saying it was difficult to imagine them as these people really stuck with me. I guess you can never really know someone. Even there relatives were shocked! I would think your family knows you but I guess that's not the case either. This article was very informative and definitely has you thinking. after reading this I am certainly more educated on the topic of ISIS and Islamic extremist and I will be more self aware as well.
6
Ms Young's father may not have been shocked. Maybe he could explain why he refused to sign the marriage contract.
4
Was it "youthful stupidity" or "scientific recruiting" or simple "psychological brainwashing" is not relevant. What is going to happen is that this couple at prime are going to spend the next 20 years behind bars. Painful. But true.
They would be the new "exemplar of injustice" to be exploited by the hilt by ISIS. New Dakhlallas will come forward looking for a "meaning in life". It is this "meaning of life" that will satiated by ISIS.
The question is whether President Obama will be smart enough to understand that the scientific recruiting of ISIS and set up counter scientific protection. Identify what attracts them and trap them before they fall into the abyss.
One way to start is addressing these people. Instead of locking them up why not reverse brainwash them to be productive members of society. That will take the wind from ISIS sails.
They would be the new "exemplar of injustice" to be exploited by the hilt by ISIS. New Dakhlallas will come forward looking for a "meaning in life". It is this "meaning of life" that will satiated by ISIS.
The question is whether President Obama will be smart enough to understand that the scientific recruiting of ISIS and set up counter scientific protection. Identify what attracts them and trap them before they fall into the abyss.
One way to start is addressing these people. Instead of locking them up why not reverse brainwash them to be productive members of society. That will take the wind from ISIS sails.
8
The Islamic terrorists keep on brainwashing the weak minded Muslims with terrific speeches and horrific videos that depict non Muslims indulging in heinous crimes against Muslims and then later use them as suicide bombers for committing barbaric attacks on humanity.
The Governments concerned should get involved in mass programmes that propagate religious tolerance etc and also must block all those websites simultaneously. Freedom of speech doesn't mean spreading hatred towards people, which should never be tolerated.
Common Muslims have a big role to play in such programmes, keeping quiet and enjoying those hatred videos and speeches don't help them either.
Muslim men don't believe that their spouses can have a different religious faith even though they marry people of other religious faith. As such they compel their spouses to get converted to their religion and even give their children Muslim names. Further they raise their children only in Islamic faith rather than following both religions or no religion for that matter. So this religion has purely become one way traffic that leads only towards religious intolerance, retrogress and nothing else.
As long as Muslim masses don't feel the pain, nothing is going to help solve this grave global problem.
The Governments concerned should get involved in mass programmes that propagate religious tolerance etc and also must block all those websites simultaneously. Freedom of speech doesn't mean spreading hatred towards people, which should never be tolerated.
Common Muslims have a big role to play in such programmes, keeping quiet and enjoying those hatred videos and speeches don't help them either.
Muslim men don't believe that their spouses can have a different religious faith even though they marry people of other religious faith. As such they compel their spouses to get converted to their religion and even give their children Muslim names. Further they raise their children only in Islamic faith rather than following both religions or no religion for that matter. So this religion has purely become one way traffic that leads only towards religious intolerance, retrogress and nothing else.
As long as Muslim masses don't feel the pain, nothing is going to help solve this grave global problem.
17
This doesn't surprise me. Why not? Because we live in a time in which so many people choose to believe to disbelieve whatever suits them. I have met so many people in recent years who will dismiss anything they hear in the "Mainstream media" and believe anything from some far right or left, nut-job publication, that it doesn't surprise me that some people can believe that ISIS is a perfectly nice organization being unfairly maligned by the government and the media. When I think about the people I know who can point to a map from some crazy blog showing the supposed locations of Obama's forced relocation camps that are under construction, or tell me about the "Fact" that the government carried out 9-11, I'm not surprised that people can be convinced that all the bad things we hear about ISIS are false and part of a conspiracy. So many people choose to believe whatever they want, pass off whatever news doesn't suit their ideology as conspiracy, and live in their own reality, why should we be surprised that some of those people believe what they want to about ISIS?
50
Sadly, much of what is really going on in terms of politics and American foreign policy is much better covered in what you call "Left wing nutjob publications" For example, Real News Network and Democracy Now do a much better job of getting people interviewed and stories covered you will never see in thecorporate-owned main stream media, and it is done so from a perspective more accurate and more in depth. Some of the best journalism goes on there with stories that pull back the curtain on what is really happeningin the US and what it is doing in the world.
1
This is a very astute comment.
1
My guess is that they know too little about the realities on the ground in the ISIS world; that in the idealism of youth they (lacking that reality base) bought ISIS's recruiters' load of goods; that in the first flushes of love/lust (they know each other only a year) the idea of going off together to live in a more perfect state, i.e., to be more perfect Muslims shunning all that might not be right with the world, was very enticing.
Young people at that age are reaching a 'now what?' spot in their lives. If they feared making those choices or were unclear about direction, the certainty that ISIS recruiters project would be appealing. If they wanted to get out of (boring, this is where I grew up) town, going off together (young love thing) to see the world and fight for what was portrayed as good would have seemed romantic and appealing. My hope is that some of these young folks who are caught this way will be offered something that is rehabilitating, not just locked up. They will be out among us again, even if they get the maximum sentence.
Young people at that age are reaching a 'now what?' spot in their lives. If they feared making those choices or were unclear about direction, the certainty that ISIS recruiters project would be appealing. If they wanted to get out of (boring, this is where I grew up) town, going off together (young love thing) to see the world and fight for what was portrayed as good would have seemed romantic and appealing. My hope is that some of these young folks who are caught this way will be offered something that is rehabilitating, not just locked up. They will be out among us again, even if they get the maximum sentence.
38
Part of me wants to agree with you (that they are indeed rehabilitable due to their young age), but part of me isn't so forgiving. I don't want these easily radicalized individuals to be "out among us," not again.
Sure they're young, naive, and romanticize everything, but if they don't see the hard reality of it, they would never learn. And letting them off easily is NOT the way for them to learn the hard reality of what ISIS does and truly represents. Perhaps for them to truly learn, they really should be allowed to go and join ISIS, let her know what it means when she's treated as someone's property (4th wife or sex slave), and let him know what it means when someone wants to turn him into suicide bomber. But it has to be made sure that they cannot make their way back to US or enjoy the citizenship of US anymore. They don't deserve it.
Sure they're young, naive, and romanticize everything, but if they don't see the hard reality of it, they would never learn. And letting them off easily is NOT the way for them to learn the hard reality of what ISIS does and truly represents. Perhaps for them to truly learn, they really should be allowed to go and join ISIS, let her know what it means when she's treated as someone's property (4th wife or sex slave), and let him know what it means when someone wants to turn him into suicide bomber. But it has to be made sure that they cannot make their way back to US or enjoy the citizenship of US anymore. They don't deserve it.
5
We need to stop "enabling" this sort of behavior by making excuses for bad decisions. Half the population of the Middle East is under 25 years of age. Their youth does not seem to benefit their cultures or societies. These two need to be made an example to others who, like them, are stupid enough to be sucked in by this craven nonsensical philosophy. Twenty years in prison seems sufficient for each to resume a place in society, hopefully with better and less violent beliefs. We need to stop being politically correct and say to those who are evil, you are evil, plain and simple, period!
8
I guess I just don't understand. I realize when you are young and love, you can be easily persuaded. But to want to join an organization that engages in systemic rape of women, and condones it as a means to get "closer to God", is not the action of an intelligent man or woman. There is some other input going on here. Perhaps the violence perpetrated by cops on black people is being utilized as a drawing mechanism by ISIL. Our country needs to be paying attention to that possible connection. Addressing in a positive manner our race relation problems will, I believe go a long way in heading off more such converts. And, yes, we do have a problem. However, young and naive people will not understand the " going from the pot into the fire" connection. But surely, that is what they are doing. Sad.
45
Oh, c'mon, give me a break, linking their attempt to join ISIS and pledging their allegiance to it with racial issues in this country is just so lame. There is NO WAY to justify anyone beheading another living being (not even an animal, for godsake) as a way to address inequality. They should be well-educated to understand that.
11
The connection between police violence against blacks and a violent brand of Islam? It's no wonder we're so hapless and hopeless in facing this latest manifestation of the horrors of an organized religion that has become coddled by foolish souls who think that even the worst brutality is, in the end, appropriate to be explained and then excused with foolish musings like this.
2
Her father is a police officer.
4
To all the people who find the FBI actions so disturbing here:
In my neck of the woods we call that "fighting fire with fire".
Wringing your hands over due process when the enemy beheads and burns innocents alive is ludicrous beyond belief.
You see two people whose rights were violated. I see two kids who were saved from themselves. We must pose that question to them in twenty years to see which of us was right.
Meanwhile, lets have a referendum among American parents: would they prefer that their children be allowed to proceed on to Syria, or would they rather have them be detained at the border. I predict vast majorities in favor of 'unreasonable detention'.
In my neck of the woods we call that "fighting fire with fire".
Wringing your hands over due process when the enemy beheads and burns innocents alive is ludicrous beyond belief.
You see two people whose rights were violated. I see two kids who were saved from themselves. We must pose that question to them in twenty years to see which of us was right.
Meanwhile, lets have a referendum among American parents: would they prefer that their children be allowed to proceed on to Syria, or would they rather have them be detained at the border. I predict vast majorities in favor of 'unreasonable detention'.
74
Detained, without question.
But, stings are tricky. Would these kids have gone as far as they did without being egged on by the F.B.I. impersonating radical jihadists?
But, stings are tricky. Would these kids have gone as far as they did without being egged on by the F.B.I. impersonating radical jihadists?
1
Terrorists reason that their actions are justified because of what was done to their peoples by the societies that they attack. It is not hand wringing but hand washing that is to be abhorred.
1
There are better ways to fight fire.
2
Dollars to donuts both of them are laying on the floor in the corner curled up in a fetal position, cussing existence as thousands upon thousands upon thousands of uncontrollable thoughts race through their minds. At which point a song by an R&B star of the seventies comes to mind. His name was Tyrone Davis, and the song was, "If I Could Turn Back The Hands Of Time." Wishful thinking at this point, kids. Something about lying in the bed you make.
114
More than likely, at their ages, raised in the cushion of the United States. They are curled up in the fetal position in their cells Crying.
I can't help but be reminded of the young people, some as post pubescent 16 year olds that went to fight in the jungles of Vietnam. The eighteen year olds that have been engaged with rebel terrorists all over the Middle East in the years since then.
I take some solace from news reports and factual movies like American Sniper
That many of our soldiers over there now are in their twenties and thirties.
None the less that solace is still far to little because none of them belong over there at all.
Bring our boys and men home! That is where they belong. Then we have to negotiate with Eygypt, Israel and other neighbors of Syria to deal with ISIS.
I can't help but be reminded of the young people, some as post pubescent 16 year olds that went to fight in the jungles of Vietnam. The eighteen year olds that have been engaged with rebel terrorists all over the Middle East in the years since then.
I take some solace from news reports and factual movies like American Sniper
That many of our soldiers over there now are in their twenties and thirties.
None the less that solace is still far to little because none of them belong over there at all.
Bring our boys and men home! That is where they belong. Then we have to negotiate with Eygypt, Israel and other neighbors of Syria to deal with ISIS.
to m.o. clayton: not to mention tyrone davis's previous hit "[baby,] can i change my mind."
Psychiatric researchers have identified several behaviors that indicate that a child or young adult is likely to be a sociopath, or become a murderer or arsonist: torturing animals, fire-setting, a fascination with guns and violence, and most importantly a lack of empathy. Perhaps an emergent active interest in fundamentalist religious practice should be added to this list. These two educated, well-off, and Internet-savvy young Muslims (Ms. Young was a convert) must have known of the systematic murders, tortures, extortion, child rape, rape-slaving, and ongoing genocide of the Yazidi justified by ISIS as truly Islamic. They weren't tricked or fooled; they knew exactly what they wanted to do.
68
Hypatia: That 's what's so puzzling about the choice these young people made:
(knowing about the murders, tortures, rape-slaving, etc. on the part of Isis)
Knowing all that, assuming they did, what provoked this terrible choice? It
wasn't as if they had no future or ambition for themselves. Surely, this pair
should be studied and analyzed - what is it in their background that could have
influenced this choice; how do their parents fit into the story. This one , for me,
is a true enigma. More of their story should be unpacked.
(knowing about the murders, tortures, rape-slaving, etc. on the part of Isis)
Knowing all that, assuming they did, what provoked this terrible choice? It
wasn't as if they had no future or ambition for themselves. Surely, this pair
should be studied and analyzed - what is it in their background that could have
influenced this choice; how do their parents fit into the story. This one , for me,
is a true enigma. More of their story should be unpacked.
1
But she considered it all propaganda. There was only one way that she would ever learn the truth by personal experience.
1
I hope they will articulate what it is that attracted them to ISIS. I think we need to understand the appeal of that group, so as to counteract it.
111
You can't counteract stupidity.
4
They are master's at using social media and have been a great deal producing a video that presents them in idyllic terms and not reality. They are also very much aware of the type of psychological prodding or information that they can entice these people. They have romanticized it to a large degree. Do you think they are showing the mass beheadings of people? Women being treated as sex slaves? They are not stupid. They are very successful in drawing people from Germany, Russia, Belgium, France and Sweden. Theirs is a global outreach so they are not just targeting our people but people around the world. And it is my understanding they are paying their foreign fighters very substantial amounts of money.
But what are they offering in terrms of ideology that would be attractive to young people? Young people are naive and idealistic, which is good, but they are not necessarily stupid. When I was 17, 18,20, I had ideals - still do - but they led to work on social issues here, not flee to a life of extreme violence in a foreign country. What is being offered to them? Not just a Peace-Corps-type of life, or they'd join the Peace Corps. It's mystifying to me, how it crosses the minds of two not-apparently-insane young adults to join a foreign religious war of extreme violence. I think we need to understand the thought process, or risk serious damage eventually. Yes, Isis is horrible, but something is lacking in us - here, in our country - that makes horrible-Isis attractive.
I would suggest that we fly the happy couple over an ISIS stronghold and allow them to parachute out to join their heros and never let them return..never let them return.
41
Make sure you take their passport, and prohibition to reclaim US citizenship again (since their action would have more than sufficient evidence that they want to renounce it) since they don't deserve to be call one.
1
Not a half-bad suggestion. However, what if other youth start requesting these not so golden parachutes?
love makes one do crazy stuff. and at that age, but still, so very bizarre...
13
What about the zealousness of a recent convert?
This story makes me sick. I’d like to know how much money and time the FBI spent on this entrapment case [not to mention how much it’s going to cost to prosecute, convict and jail these kids for 20 years].
Total it all out and we could have used this valuable time to conduct the required background checks on felonious individuals who purchased guns through interstate loopholes- You know like the guy who unlawfully purchased a gun and shot up the movie theater in Tennessee. Cases like that are sitting in a big pile on some filed agent’s desk, but he or she is too busy entrapping disillusioned youth over the internet.
@FBI- for all the good you do- You people are stupid!
Total it all out and we could have used this valuable time to conduct the required background checks on felonious individuals who purchased guns through interstate loopholes- You know like the guy who unlawfully purchased a gun and shot up the movie theater in Tennessee. Cases like that are sitting in a big pile on some filed agent’s desk, but he or she is too busy entrapping disillusioned youth over the internet.
@FBI- for all the good you do- You people are stupid!
7
I'm sure you would rather FBI spend their time chasing murders and bombers after they are allowed to walk free and plant bombs in your neighborhood or behead someone on your street, doing the things AFTER the effect, rather than be proactive in stopping it from happening in the first place.
5
Read the story agsin.
The FBI is capable of doing more than one thing at once. Sometimes things fall through the cracks. It's called human error.
I am happy the FBI is conducting these stings of prospective Jihadis. I am sure ISIS wants to train these people and make them radical enough to come home and conduct terrorist activities here. Catching these young idealists before they leave is one way the FBI is safeguarding our country. It is no waste of time and money.
I am happy the FBI is conducting these stings of prospective Jihadis. I am sure ISIS wants to train these people and make them radical enough to come home and conduct terrorist activities here. Catching these young idealists before they leave is one way the FBI is safeguarding our country. It is no waste of time and money.
America's confused policy towards the unmet humanitarian crisis in Syria and beyond its borders could leave young,idealistic students perplexed about their loyalties. Are we now supporting Assad? The Islamic State is exploiting the ambiguous morality of the situation.
10
Arab society doesn't know what it wants. The State Department only deals with governments.
"This is one of those contrapmemt things" -Bodie Brodus
4
Do you know what the most perplexing thing in all of this is? These are college educated individuals supposedly exposed to things that someone who dropped out of high school would never be exposed to. As far along as they were in their education they were supposed to have the ability to reason, to distinguish between fiction and fantasy and reality. I say let them go and find out that they really didn't want what they thought they wanted, that the grass wasn't greener on the other side with the one caveat: You can never return any circumstances
37
That's just boggles one's mind that anyone in the US could be arrested, convicted and jailed for 20 years for having an idea, before they even do anything. Pre-crime is already a reality. I am sure it is all done for the sake of "freedom". Looks like the terrorists have already won.
42
Ideas are kept in the head. These people had passed that point and were sharing their ideas with others to turn them into action.
Entrapment is a tricky word and action. The FBI is fully knowledgeable of where the line is between providing information to someone seeking it and actually providing additional information to the ideas.
Police operate fake pawn shops in order to capture burglars. The pawn shop is not the impetus that causes people to steal. They would have done that even without that particular pawn shop in operation. It's called free will, choosing to do whatever is most important to you at that moment. ( Thank you Jonathon Edwards)
Entrapment is a tricky word and action. The FBI is fully knowledgeable of where the line is between providing information to someone seeking it and actually providing additional information to the ideas.
Police operate fake pawn shops in order to capture burglars. The pawn shop is not the impetus that causes people to steal. They would have done that even without that particular pawn shop in operation. It's called free will, choosing to do whatever is most important to you at that moment. ( Thank you Jonathon Edwards)
2
Do you really want to see the kind of things happening in Europe now (beheading on the street, radical militant muslims shooting people execution style, etc) to happen on your streets, for the sake of their "freedom"? I don't.
4
They will only serve a few years. The FBI got what it wanted in this article.
1
It is fortunate that The FBI and other investigative agencies were on top of the actions of these two individuals. Hopefully the courts will issue long prison sentences to both. Twenty years is really not long enough for these traitors. A good prosecutor should be able to produce additional state evidence which should result in even a longer term in prison.
16
When you're young, you do stupid things, inexplicably. They obviously got caught up in the "purity" of ISIS and turned a blind eye to its atrocities.
18
I can't understand what would make any woman want to join a society that treats women so poorly. Did she have so little self worth, and did Mr Dakhlalla have anything to do with that?
39
Think of racism in US.
1
For the same reason many poor people vote GOP or oppose freedom of choice.
"Ms. Young believed that Muslims and groups like the Islamic State had been unfairly caricatured in the West, Ms. Treloar said. But she saw no signs that Ms. Young would try to join the extremists."
With one savage beheading after another purposely broadcast, how can someone believe the supposed Islamic State has been "unfairly caricatured in the West?"
Ms. Young is clearly warped. She and the stupid boy should get some help and some brains. (Not 20 years.)
With one savage beheading after another purposely broadcast, how can someone believe the supposed Islamic State has been "unfairly caricatured in the West?"
Ms. Young is clearly warped. She and the stupid boy should get some help and some brains. (Not 20 years.)
51
No, indeed I don't want to spend any more taxpayers' money housing them in prisons for two decades because those money can be better spent on elsewhere to provide opportunities for others who would have died for the opportunities and privileges that these two individuals have enjoyed in their lives, which sadly to say, is not enough for them.
Indeed, why not let them go to Syria, just make sure they're stripped of everything they have (which they have wanted to shed in the first place), including their US citizenship. Let them learn the harsh reality on the ground, let them rot there. It doesn't cost us anything, but I'd bet it'll take less than 2 years for them to beg for the chance to come back to their old, comfortable life. Fat chance.
Indeed, why not let them go to Syria, just make sure they're stripped of everything they have (which they have wanted to shed in the first place), including their US citizenship. Let them learn the harsh reality on the ground, let them rot there. It doesn't cost us anything, but I'd bet it'll take less than 2 years for them to beg for the chance to come back to their old, comfortable life. Fat chance.
2
Hopefully their lawyer will read your comment and give them a John Hinckley defense.
Young idealistic men and women served as guards in the gulag. Young idealistic men and women shoved children into gas chambers. Young idealistic men pray and then rape little girls in the Islamic State today, while young idealistic women comfort and encourage them. Entrapment? I'm glad they were entrapped. Put them in jail and throw away the key.
56
Obviously there's some part of the ISIS propaganda that appeals to these impressionable (stupid, even) young adults. The fact that they are socially engaged (and not isolated), totally integrated into the society, there has to be the part of the ISIS message, their flagrant use of Koran, that appeals to them, and to make them believe that ISIS and what they preach is so real, much more truer than what the western culture and civilization represent.
Some might blame the authority and FBI for entrapment. But these individuals are not 5yo, they are well-educated full-grown adults who should have been making intelligent decisions for their lives and future (not). Just because someone is talking about it does not mean you should be falling for it. Somehow their sense of right and wrong is so messed up that the message of ISIS, even the killing and beheading of infidels, would have seemed justified to them.
Obviously they would need to pay the price for their stupidity, but I'm not sure if putting them away to rot in jail for the next 20 years is going to resolve anything, but neither would it do by letting them out to "rehabilitate" among families and friends (support structure of which has failed so badly in the first place, resulting in their attempt to sneak away without anyone around them catching any wind of it).
Perhaps if there's a way to strip these individuals' US citizenship or any chance of coming back, part of them is tempted to us, just let them go and rot there.
Some might blame the authority and FBI for entrapment. But these individuals are not 5yo, they are well-educated full-grown adults who should have been making intelligent decisions for their lives and future (not). Just because someone is talking about it does not mean you should be falling for it. Somehow their sense of right and wrong is so messed up that the message of ISIS, even the killing and beheading of infidels, would have seemed justified to them.
Obviously they would need to pay the price for their stupidity, but I'm not sure if putting them away to rot in jail for the next 20 years is going to resolve anything, but neither would it do by letting them out to "rehabilitate" among families and friends (support structure of which has failed so badly in the first place, resulting in their attempt to sneak away without anyone around them catching any wind of it).
Perhaps if there's a way to strip these individuals' US citizenship or any chance of coming back, part of them is tempted to us, just let them go and rot there.
15
I too find this case difficult to understand. Travel experiences during my formative years have shown me not just how wonderful this country is and how lucky we are, but how the planet has bigger concerns given climate change, pollution, water etc.
The one thing that stood out in this piece was that the woman had not traveled outside the United States. The big lesson here perhaps is that exchange programs can really open up our eyes not just to other cultures and possibilities, but to the complexities that face people around the world and even in our own countries. Amidst these complexities, we share a planet where to many living creatures are en route to extinction, where so much suffering can be prevented, (and I'm talking about the kid without asthma in the South Bronx, just as much as kids dying of preventable diseases in lesser developed countries.)
What is terrifying is that these kids in our prison system could be further radicalized. That to me would be the most tragic outcome.
The one thing that stood out in this piece was that the woman had not traveled outside the United States. The big lesson here perhaps is that exchange programs can really open up our eyes not just to other cultures and possibilities, but to the complexities that face people around the world and even in our own countries. Amidst these complexities, we share a planet where to many living creatures are en route to extinction, where so much suffering can be prevented, (and I'm talking about the kid without asthma in the South Bronx, just as much as kids dying of preventable diseases in lesser developed countries.)
What is terrifying is that these kids in our prison system could be further radicalized. That to me would be the most tragic outcome.
There is no means possible to remove US citizenship from a person born in the US or its territories. Even if a person was to declare themselves a citizen of another country they will always be able to return and claim it again.
We prize US citizenship highly and expect foreigners to earn that status. So do others if the number of illegal border crossing is any indication as well as the years long waiting lists to enter.
We prize US citizenship highly and expect foreigners to earn that status. So do others if the number of illegal border crossing is any indication as well as the years long waiting lists to enter.
I know this sounds crazy but they made an intelligent decision. They decided to depart in pursuit of a better life.
This article is something I never thought i would see. These people seemed like such normal people and if i was a neighbor or a friend, I would be terribly confused. But with all of the hints and and "social media platforms" I guess all it would take is someone opening their eyes to notice what was going on.
5
Imagine an FBI special unit tasked with recruiting young Christians into plots of violence against Muslims in the US. Think they wouldn't find any takers?
23
Maybe. But we don't do that. What's your point.
1
"...a number of young Muslims in the United States have been seduced in recent months by the Islamic State..."
Seduced by what? The prospect of beheading someone? Gang-raping apostates? "Marrying" one some IS monster so you can become his obeisant property? Where, pray tell, is the seduction for anyone not born a psychopath?
So much moaning and hand-wringing about the young of North America and Europe flitting off for an adventure with the Islamic crusaders in Syria; so little discussion about what that says about these same young people - and about the world they are rejecting.
Seduced by what? The prospect of beheading someone? Gang-raping apostates? "Marrying" one some IS monster so you can become his obeisant property? Where, pray tell, is the seduction for anyone not born a psychopath?
So much moaning and hand-wringing about the young of North America and Europe flitting off for an adventure with the Islamic crusaders in Syria; so little discussion about what that says about these same young people - and about the world they are rejecting.
26
When one can't get sex because of strict religious practices, gang-rape can easily be justified with god's blessing.
1
EdB,
Yes , these people are seduced ! by Atrocity!
It's been said that girls are 'turned on' by the guys who commit these atrocities. Is there even an adjective to describe these young recruits ??
Yes , these people are seduced ! by Atrocity!
It's been said that girls are 'turned on' by the guys who commit these atrocities. Is there even an adjective to describe these young recruits ??
These kids wonder why religion is such a secondary issue in this country and can't accept the secular state. They want an Islamic society that publically acknowledges and submits to the Divine. They see the Islamic State as an alternative to this society and can leave for something better. It would be sinful to remain here. Now whether the Islamic State will meet their expectations is another matter.
I think Jaelyn should have read the other recent article in the NYTimes about rape and trafficking if she wanted to really understand what was in store for her. Sad, but naive youth can be dangerous.
28
Oh, I'm sure she would dismiss those reporting as "caricature."
1
The comments here reflect an awful lot of concern for how these two people were seduced, or more pointedly, entrapped by FBI agents. But, while I realize that policing by all manner of law enforcement agencies can sometimes be overzealous, I wonder how this will all play out when more of the story of what was happening in these two young lives is revealed?
I'm stunned by the story, and one thing about it strikes me as an enormous red flag. This young woman converted to Islam. Raised a Christian, at only 19 years old, who converts to anything other than jazz or hip-hop or grunge or Republican? We all go a little far during our college years as we explore the larger world as it opens up before us. But who converts to Islam six months into her freshman year??? That's not normal. Not to disparage Islam, but it's simply not normal for a 19-year-old to convert to another religion suddenly. Something was happening in her life that was amiss, and that she was possibly going to great lengths to conceal. Something was amiss there... I'm interested to learn more as the details emerge, and I doubt there will be much validity to the suspicions of FBI entrapment.
I'm stunned by the story, and one thing about it strikes me as an enormous red flag. This young woman converted to Islam. Raised a Christian, at only 19 years old, who converts to anything other than jazz or hip-hop or grunge or Republican? We all go a little far during our college years as we explore the larger world as it opens up before us. But who converts to Islam six months into her freshman year??? That's not normal. Not to disparage Islam, but it's simply not normal for a 19-year-old to convert to another religion suddenly. Something was happening in her life that was amiss, and that she was possibly going to great lengths to conceal. Something was amiss there... I'm interested to learn more as the details emerge, and I doubt there will be much validity to the suspicions of FBI entrapment.
23
I like what you say. I don't know enough about the validity or non of the FBI entrapment but I agree with you that there must have been something happening in her life that she felt compelled to conceal. Nothing happens without a cause, and the profiles of these two young adults' families is ridiculously superficial so we can tell nothing from them.
Judging and blaming these two and taking such a superficial view of their lives is going to get us nowhere and it could result in alienating them forever so that they become ISIL martyr fodder.
They need to be placed with a psychologist who has empathy and treats them with insight and understanding; who can lead them to insights about themselves and show them healthy ways to meet their needs. Then they can help with others tempted to join ISIL.
Judging and blaming these two and taking such a superficial view of their lives is going to get us nowhere and it could result in alienating them forever so that they become ISIL martyr fodder.
They need to be placed with a psychologist who has empathy and treats them with insight and understanding; who can lead them to insights about themselves and show them healthy ways to meet their needs. Then they can help with others tempted to join ISIL.
"Raised a Christian"
At one time that phrase would have meant something. Many of today's churches have become so secularized that there is little difference between what is done in them and what the culture is doing. Gone are the days when Confessions and Catechisms taught what it meant to be a Christian and what is to be believed to be considered one. The Social Gospel has supplanted the true gospel of man's need for a savior with one of works and self salvation. Doing "mission" has replaced the knowledge necessary to face the secular world and the shallow beliefs are easily discarded.
At one time that phrase would have meant something. Many of today's churches have become so secularized that there is little difference between what is done in them and what the culture is doing. Gone are the days when Confessions and Catechisms taught what it meant to be a Christian and what is to be believed to be considered one. The Social Gospel has supplanted the true gospel of man's need for a savior with one of works and self salvation. Doing "mission" has replaced the knowledge necessary to face the secular world and the shallow beliefs are easily discarded.
It's simple: she is/was engaged to marry a person who is a Muslim. Why not convert? Many Christians convert to the Jewish faith in order to marry. What's the difference?
The two are the proverbial "Rebels Without A Cause" as well as callow and confused youth. They "found" militant Islamic extremism as a way to escape their guilty feelings regarding their coddled and pampered middle American lives.
13
Read the Affidavit in Support of Criminal Complaint. It is at
http://www.justice.gov/opa/file/705906/download. (There are multiple images of most pages in the .pdf.)
http://www.justice.gov/opa/file/705906/download. (There are multiple images of most pages in the .pdf.)
10
Thank you. Very interesting to read. Their plans seem pretty vague except reaching Istanbul but clueless about how actually getting to their final destination. Young even asks the informant if she will need to get a taxi or if her will come to Istanbul to "get them"! And Dakhlalla aks the informant if ISIl follows shariah as he is not very familiar with Shariah! Difficult to say if it is stupidity or inexperience that blinds them.
1
I applaud the FBI for scrutinizing the social media and following the leads early, rather than too late. Many young Americans their age struggle to make ends meet, to pay for college or even raise a family. I don't see this as a stupidity at young age, they should have known better if they thought higher of the people surrounding them, their families, their educators, their communities. Instead, they are falling prey to the preposterous goal of Islamic hegemony over the world. Where is their allegiance? How would a doctor and a psychologist condone the unheard-of-atrocities they wanted to join? What about helping the millions of refugees (most of them fellow Muslims, by the way!) out of that hell? It's time we demand more from Muslim religious leaders in terms of shaping peoples' thinking towards peace, kindness and respect of their fellow humans, specifically rejecting any praise of atrocities in the name of Islam and denouncing any thought of utopian supremacy. (They clearly did a horrible job if on the last day of prayer that nuthead went on a shooting spree!)
20
"An F.B.I. employee identified her “through social media platforms” as a supporter of the Islamic State, also known as ISIS or ISIL." We should be cognizant that the government uses entrapment techniques to get people to do or say more than they would otherwise. And when they do, their agencies get gold stars for protecting us. And increased funding to continue protecting us which is to say, more entrapment.
10
Note, please, that in the criminal complaint link above, there is absolutely no reporting of what the FBI agent wrote to either of these young people. Did he encourage them or did he try to discourage them?
Please.
Once again, the FBI creates terrorists, then arrests them. Good job. I feel safer.
17
Better the FBI tip the scale than an actual ISIS recruiter. How much they needed to be prodded will undoubtedly be reported later.
3
Really? I'd much rather have an ISIS recruiter involved, then have the FBI do some actual law enforcement and catch them.
I feel so sorry for the families and friends of these young people who have thrown away their lives. As the search to understand how they (or one of them) could have concluded that ISIS has been badly understood, what with the extensive coverage of its religiously justified beheadings, rapes, sex trafficking, and ethnic and religious genocide is beyond comprehension. Sociological explanations will never truly reveal the way the minds of individuals work.
Which is why I think those most hurt by this tragedy are the ones who care most about the decisions of these two young "radicals," for they will be led to inevitably question what role they had in those regrettable, ignorance-based choices. I would urge them to understand the answer is likely to be none. These ideologues have created a mystery in the lives of those who care about them that likely will last forever. If Starkville is as described, I hope it will do what it can to fully embrace these traumatized survivors. Much more than the guilt and fate of the "Young Mississippi Couple" is at stake here.
Which is why I think those most hurt by this tragedy are the ones who care most about the decisions of these two young "radicals," for they will be led to inevitably question what role they had in those regrettable, ignorance-based choices. I would urge them to understand the answer is likely to be none. These ideologues have created a mystery in the lives of those who care about them that likely will last forever. If Starkville is as described, I hope it will do what it can to fully embrace these traumatized survivors. Much more than the guilt and fate of the "Young Mississippi Couple" is at stake here.
6
I am amazed that people are not repulsed with the USA's penchant for torture, world denomination, continuing wars with no resolution or seeming purpose, etc.
It makes no sense to list the atrocities that this country has committed because they have been documented over and over by so many and ignored by so many more. What makes it worse is that the three parts of government are in a contest to see who can outdo the other to determine who is the greediest at the expense of the overall good and and then to lie and speak with forked-tongues.
So I am not surprised that two apparently good young people who should be happy with their positions in life are distraught enough to take such drastic action. So sad, but I understand. And I wish that there was an acceptable alternative.
It makes no sense to list the atrocities that this country has committed because they have been documented over and over by so many and ignored by so many more. What makes it worse is that the three parts of government are in a contest to see who can outdo the other to determine who is the greediest at the expense of the overall good and and then to lie and speak with forked-tongues.
So I am not surprised that two apparently good young people who should be happy with their positions in life are distraught enough to take such drastic action. So sad, but I understand. And I wish that there was an acceptable alternative.
4
So it;s alright to commit what are arguably worst actions because some citizens of a nation have done bad things on a large scale? Your thinking seems rather deluded.
2
I also assume they sought a sense of self-importance, of impact. But I have yet to actually hear anything from them (via their legal defense). Was she angry at her father (who served in Afghanistan)?; was he angry at his father (a pacifist Muslim)? Their lives are over; I just want to understand.
She was disappointed in the Bible? Is that what I am to understand? Or is the "impurity" of translation a recruitment tactic someone fed her?
Chicken or the egg?
She was disappointed in the Bible? Is that what I am to understand? Or is the "impurity" of translation a recruitment tactic someone fed her?
Chicken or the egg?
11
I would also like to see this story unfold and see what was the driving factor that led them to their decision. You brought up a good questions "was it the impurity of the Bible" that heavy? I have read the Quran partially and studied along with a Muslim friend, although I am spiritual. Due to alterations of the Bible I have never felt that strongly that it would draw me to an extremist group like ISIS. Yet again at 35 years old, I'm not easily impressionable. Maybe the two will shed more light (personally or through their lawyers) on their "why".
I realize this may not be the time, but, gosh, what a beautiful couple! As for Isis. I dunno, whoever is in charge of their PR is quite good. The fact that so many smart, beautiful and seemingly talented Western youth have been lured over there, in what sounds like total hell, is remarkable. I scratch my head...
14
I think you may be elevating this couple's attributes a wee bit much.
1
Read Paragraph 16 on page 11 of the complaint. That should give you an idea of what was going through the young man's head.
You need to understand that ISIS websites are not all about war and killings and beheadings and rape.
We know our government lies to us; why would they not believe that what they read in the media here about ISIS is not pure propaganda when they can go onto ISIS website and read their about all the "good" they are doing in the areas they control.
You need to understand that ISIS websites are not all about war and killings and beheadings and rape.
We know our government lies to us; why would they not believe that what they read in the media here about ISIS is not pure propaganda when they can go onto ISIS website and read their about all the "good" they are doing in the areas they control.
Plenty of unspeakable atrocities began with the enthusiastic idealism of the young.
As they say, if you do not learn from history you will be forced to repeat it. These two dolts are no different from the kids who became the Nazis, or the Khmer Rouge, and before them the Bolsheviks, and long before them, the Children's Crusade...
I don't care how many hooks the FBI dangled in front of them. Not every Awfully Big Adventure can be excused because someone else was whispering enticements in your ear. I'd say a majority of twelve-year-olds would have known this was a really bad idea...
As they say, if you do not learn from history you will be forced to repeat it. These two dolts are no different from the kids who became the Nazis, or the Khmer Rouge, and before them the Bolsheviks, and long before them, the Children's Crusade...
I don't care how many hooks the FBI dangled in front of them. Not every Awfully Big Adventure can be excused because someone else was whispering enticements in your ear. I'd say a majority of twelve-year-olds would have known this was a really bad idea...
36
Blaming the enticements negates the predominate philosophy of mankind having free will. Jesus said that the "free will" is guided by the evil in mankind's heart. Absolute free will is a fallacy. It is always guided by one's immediate desire at that moment.
So we have two young, bright, beautiful, promising people, whom no one who knows them thinks anything negative about, suddenly facing twenty years in prison because they were coaxed and persuaded over two months to transform a general political sympathy with ISIS into an actual membership?
Sometime we will look back on the present "Age of Terror" as akin to the McCarthy era, when fear of Communism (which certainly did have severely negative qualities) resulted in various agencies, seeking their own bureaucratic resource justification, operating to abrogate the rights of ordinary citizens.
Sometime we will look back on the present "Age of Terror" as akin to the McCarthy era, when fear of Communism (which certainly did have severely negative qualities) resulted in various agencies, seeking their own bureaucratic resource justification, operating to abrogate the rights of ordinary citizens.
12
Well - let's strip the citizenship from these "ordinary citizens", through them in jail and toss away the key. Happy honeymoon, my young jihadists.
5
This is far worse a time than the era of McCartyism. I read yesterday that the government resided Chelsea Manning's cell and will put her in indefinite solitary for having a tube of toothpaste that was past it's expiration date. So chillingly petty.
1
"On July 17, the day after a young Muslim man in Chattanooga, Tenn., fatally shot five United States servicemen, Ms. Young rejoiced..."
I -- and am sure many other readers, especially those of us who are parents -- can understand young people being "seduced," as these two obviously were by the Islamic State. However, what I do not understand is the reported rejoicing in the violent destruction of life. This suggests much more than mere vulnerability; it manifests a presence of malevolence that has little or nothing to do with being vulnerable and suscptible to being duped and much to do with pathology.
I -- and am sure many other readers, especially those of us who are parents -- can understand young people being "seduced," as these two obviously were by the Islamic State. However, what I do not understand is the reported rejoicing in the violent destruction of life. This suggests much more than mere vulnerability; it manifests a presence of malevolence that has little or nothing to do with being vulnerable and suscptible to being duped and much to do with pathology.
32
Robert Stewart, I do Not understand the young people who are seduced by ISIS.
I am a grandmother and have seen and heard
Plenty but This is inexplicable, especially for western and American kids unless they were raised in Horror Chambers. Yes, very pathological and very pathetic for the human race, which has come 'so far'.....
I am a grandmother and have seen and heard
Plenty but This is inexplicable, especially for western and American kids unless they were raised in Horror Chambers. Yes, very pathological and very pathetic for the human race, which has come 'so far'.....
1
I don't understand the complaints of entrapment in the comments.
Read the article.
The statements of their own intent is quite extensive and damning.
Read the article.
The statements of their own intent is quite extensive and damning.
35
"Two F.B.I. employees, posing as supporters of the terrorist group, engaged the couple in a long online courtship " This is entrapment. How can you not understand this? These are YOUNG, intelligent, grossly misled idealistic people.
4
Read the many statements they made, of their own accord, over a long period of time. In which case you want to thank the FBI, for saving these kids before they got themselves to Syria.
The way you write about it, I have to question if you understand how entrapment works. You are excusing them, when they are forming their own intent here.
The person who simply talks to you about plans you have formed in your own mind is not responsible for your own organic wants and desires.
The way you write about it, I have to question if you understand how entrapment works. You are excusing them, when they are forming their own intent here.
The person who simply talks to you about plans you have formed in your own mind is not responsible for your own organic wants and desires.
2
These kids must be laboring under some sort of abstract political view and not be aware of or believe reports about the horrendous violence ISIS has loosed. No one in their right mind murders helpless people, beheads prisoners, or rapes captured women. There are homicidal maniacs and there are misguided youth. I can't believe these kids are bloodthirsty psychopaths.
6
You don't have to be a bloodthirsty psychopath to kill lots and lots of innocent people. All you have to be is a deluded young fool with a weapon and with friends who seem to think the same way you do.
Pitch him into prison.
Pitch him into prison.
3
I have to disagree with you, vbering. A fundamental feeling of connection to the humanity of another person has to be absent for someone to kill a human being.
2
How many people have been killed by the weapons of terrorists? We are not aware, indeed.
1
So, is this a true cautionary tale of the long reach of ISIS into America's heartland where two bright students of the sleepy South are recruited, or is it really a case of entrapment where "two F.B.I. employees, posing as supporters of the terrorist group, engaged the couple" and apparently played on their naivete in supporting their new, in the case of Ms. Young, passion for Islam? It's hard to parse the article and the story, but it seems tragic either way. Twenty years seems harsh (equivalent to rape), but cases like this all too often get the maximum to set an intimidating example to others.
12
These two are the doe eyed people who get training and fly planes into buildings.
These two young people have ruined their lives, but did not get the chance to ruin others. Let's thank the FBI for rooting them out before they could contribute to the brutality.
These two young people have ruined their lives, but did not get the chance to ruin others. Let's thank the FBI for rooting them out before they could contribute to the brutality.
46
Better than 20 years in prison would be a shorter term with the chance to learn from these two about what made them go down such a wrong path.
6
It is unfortunately not surprising that there are individuals living in America, yet loathing our culture and our people. It is, however, unexpected and desperately alarming that such include young Americans with celebrated upbringing and promising and bright futures: either converts or those born into the Islamic faith but seamlessly navigating the culture of the West. This is not the first time we hear it being a popular, social, athletic, and reportedly well-adjusted young person: the Boston Marathon bombers, the Chattanooga shooter; and now this. It is truly so difficult to imagine someone who outwardly embraced the social fabric of the West, yet in the quiet of his mind, held a shredded view of everything outside the home and the mosque. It's easier to imagine a disaffected teenage convert, caught up in the euphoria of new-found faith, and a zeal to impress the new-found group. It makes one wonder what goes on behind the closed doors of homes, the talk around the kitchen table that stays within the walls. We need to learn the telltale signs, recognize seemingly benign complaints about our norms and mores. Still, I feel for the Muslims who truly mean no harm, have not a bone in their bodies that could ever take a life, that could find something as vulgar as ISIS to be of any appeal. It is Muslims making it difficult for Muslims to live in the West.
131
Hope you know the blasphemy laws and the sharia laws ( death for apostasy, death for blasphemy, stoning of adulterers, honor killings,) in Saudi Arabia, pakistan, iran, sudan, . Millions of people in these people support taking life for sake of islam........because it is in their constitution.
2
Hi Faith,
Both the Boston Marathon Bombers and the Chatanooga shooters were not well adjusted. The Boston Marathon Bombers were from a family with domestic violence, and lived on public assistance. Some think the older brother was psychotic. The Chatanooga bomber, while well educated, had substance abuse problems, a life time of depression, and could not hold a job.
Both the Boston Marathon Bombers and the Chatanooga shooters were not well adjusted. The Boston Marathon Bombers were from a family with domestic violence, and lived on public assistance. Some think the older brother was psychotic. The Chatanooga bomber, while well educated, had substance abuse problems, a life time of depression, and could not hold a job.
Well written, Faith!
A young woman just graduated from high school falls under the sway of political extremism, naively suggesting to the on-line stranger "that she might be able to offer 'medical aid' to the cause." Yes, I know that we need to protect ourselves from home-grown terrorists, but this sounds more like The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie than a federal case. We'll see how her obvious entrapment defense works out.
12
I fail to understand this. If you want to leave the US, and fight for another country, who cares? I'd say good riddance. Encourage it! Why is it our business to prevent someone from moving? Take their passport if they pledge allege cue to another country, and call it a day?
10
They were not going to fight in the French Foreign Legion to protect the Congo from warlords or some such. They were going to join a monstrous, borderless terrorist organization that is actively at war with the U.S. and kidnaps and rapes indiscriminately, with a preference for U.S. citizens.
5
Letting these two head off to Syria would be a much worse punishment for their foolishness than anything that could happen to them here, but I sure hope we did not waste time, effort and money on entrapment....
11
We live in an era where we see "young people" in a softer focus than is necessary, especially in situations such as these. The Boston bombers were "young," as have been numerous American teens who, in the past, were conspiring to blow up something or the other. Ideology and a meaningful cause that is bigger then our day to day, often tedious, middle class lives, can be powerful gravitational fields for youth. The young can pose significant threats to national security when sufficiently seduced by the allure of power and personal adventure. Recruits, whether for the army or the militia or terrorist groups like ISIS, will inevitably be the youth. So why be surprised by the youth and "innocence" of these two?
20
I join those concerned that these kinds of arrests constitute government overreach. It should not be a crime to sympathize with any cause, no matter how grotesque. How do we know if they ever would have acted without having been enticed by the FBI? How do we know they wouldn't have arrived in the Middle East, been quickly disillusioned with the gap between their ideal of ISIS and the dirty reality, and been on the next plane home? We should not be in the business of predicting criminal intent; this is not The Minority Report. Keep a close eye on them, by all means, but only arrest and punish them when they have clearly committed a crime.
17
When you decide to join our enemy you are our enemy. Better to arrest you now that deal with you later.
You do not have a right to live in America and join our enemy. Thoughts are different from actions and actions begin with planning.
You do not have a right to live in America and join our enemy. Thoughts are different from actions and actions begin with planning.
2
I would not arrest them. i would help them on their way and They should not be permitted to return. Decisions have consequences.
3
Sadly, a crime is anything the FBI says it is.
This young woman rejoiced and praised God at the cold blooded murders of 5 US servicemen? That is beyond immature youth - that shows a complete and utter lack of empathy. She cannot imagine the suffering of those who were murdered, nor can she imagine the suffering of their families, their loved ones, who now confront the abyss of grief? What has happened to create such callousness?
Furthermore, to not know what ISIS does seems utterly impossible. This is an issue of basic character - even if one agrees with ideology, to believe that mass murder, mass rape, and violence, is justified is just plain wrong. There is no justification for mass murder, mass rape and this level of violence. None whatsoever.
Furthermore, to not know what ISIS does seems utterly impossible. This is an issue of basic character - even if one agrees with ideology, to believe that mass murder, mass rape, and violence, is justified is just plain wrong. There is no justification for mass murder, mass rape and this level of violence. None whatsoever.
60
What this article fails to mention is that the only people this couple was in touch with were FBI paid operatives, who had traded prison time on other charges, in exchange for helping the FBI coax individuals to amplify extremist ideas.
HBO has an excellent documentary called "The Newburgh Sting" which details the continued use of informants coerced into coaxing others to dream up terrorist plots. This American Life has a similar episode (Ep 471: The Convert) which details the story of an FBI informant who tried to get members of a New York mosque to express interest in terrorism...only, the members of the mosque turned around and reported the informant to the FBI as a potential threat.
In what world is this not entrapment? If the FBI finds two Americans who are potential targets for radicalization, it should inform their parents and community members, block their passports, and place them under constant supervision. Instead, the FBI drags them further down the path of radicalization in hopes of manufacturing another supposed "victory" in the war on terror.
Your tax dollars at work, ladies and gentlemen.
HBO has an excellent documentary called "The Newburgh Sting" which details the continued use of informants coerced into coaxing others to dream up terrorist plots. This American Life has a similar episode (Ep 471: The Convert) which details the story of an FBI informant who tried to get members of a New York mosque to express interest in terrorism...only, the members of the mosque turned around and reported the informant to the FBI as a potential threat.
In what world is this not entrapment? If the FBI finds two Americans who are potential targets for radicalization, it should inform their parents and community members, block their passports, and place them under constant supervision. Instead, the FBI drags them further down the path of radicalization in hopes of manufacturing another supposed "victory" in the war on terror.
Your tax dollars at work, ladies and gentlemen.
31
I'm grateful for the expenditure of every red cent expended by the federal government on the surveillance and arrest of these two terrorists in training. The hideous gloating over the shocking Muslim terrorist attack in Chattanooga serves as compelling evidence that there was no entrapment but genuine expressions of fervent hatred and loathing for the United States. I hope they are each convicted of the most serious charges and serve years in prison.
5
I grow weary of our making excuses for 22 year-olds as if they're tweens. Both adventurers are old enough to vote, one has a university degree. Certainly, they had to be aware of the beheadings. If they were enticed by the FBI, so be it.
54
Let's all hope for the judge's mercy. give them time to re-think. Eh?
4
If i were their judge, I would give them plenty of time to "re-think" in prison cells. Anyone who cheers the cold blooded murder of 5 US servicemen cannot be allowed to walk our streets in freedom.
7
Something really big missing with the child/parent communication message with daily living.
4
The serious decision made by this young couple to escape their apparently stable promising lives for the unknown speaks loudly of another part of the story that's yet unknown. Considering mores, it's conceivable that this coupling stirred up some prejudice/discord in both their communities and/or family of origin that forced them to seek perceived common ground/acceptance via ISIS. Thus it's possible that the rest of this story may reveal a modern day version of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet about young lovers driven to defy their entire social structure and world to be together.
11
You are really stretching for a complex psychological explanation. By all accounts, there was no animosity or racial tension involved here. As Freud once said when asked about the meaning of constantly having a cigar in his mouth, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Why can't you accept the idea that as Muslims they followed the precepts of their religions founder.
3
"Thus it's possible that the rest of this story may reveal a modern day version of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet about young lovers driven to defy their entire social structure and world to be together."
Today Romeo and Juliet show their love for each other by admiring burning people alive?
Today Romeo and Juliet show their love for each other by admiring burning people alive?
3
As others have said, I would like to see the actual content of the conversations between the FBI and these two people. Did they initiate the contact and seek help in joining ISIS or did the FBI informants /agents initiate the idea of joining ISIS? Did they have lawyers present when they made their "confessions" to the FBI or were they alone? As in all these cases, the details are important.
16
If you read the complaint, you will note that there is no record of what the FBI said to either individual, only quote from the individuals themselves. That, alone, is suspect.
1
I cannot say that I have any empathy for this young couple. They made their intelligent choice and will have to live with the consequences.
27
People who want to destroy our Country deserve no mercy regardless of age. Especially in the case of the muslim terrorists who have no hesitation to seeing young children strap suicide bombs to themselves. Who knows but that these two might have gotten over there, become fully radicalized, and come back to blow up Mississippi State Univ. Remember 9-11! Better safe than sorry.
21
This story only gives one sentence to what is the real story here.
"The court document describes how two F.B.I. employees, posing as supporters of the terrorist group, engaged the couple in a long online courtship in which they repeatedly stated their desire to join the militants."
What kind of courtship? What exactly did it consist of? Did their own government radicalize these kids in order to entrap them? How did the government identify them? Was it through NSA surveillance? What social media platforms were being monitored? Would these children have done this without the encouragement and help of their FBI handlers? How serious were they before the FBI got involved? Was a passing interest and flirtation turned into more by the FBI’s courtship? Why did the FBI court them instead of just watch them? Did the FBI have an obligation to inform their parents? I know they were over 18 but they were hardly mature adults. Will they get a fair trial or will it be cloaked in secrecy? What if they were your kids?
This story raises many questions I hope we get some answers.
"The court document describes how two F.B.I. employees, posing as supporters of the terrorist group, engaged the couple in a long online courtship in which they repeatedly stated their desire to join the militants."
What kind of courtship? What exactly did it consist of? Did their own government radicalize these kids in order to entrap them? How did the government identify them? Was it through NSA surveillance? What social media platforms were being monitored? Would these children have done this without the encouragement and help of their FBI handlers? How serious were they before the FBI got involved? Was a passing interest and flirtation turned into more by the FBI’s courtship? Why did the FBI court them instead of just watch them? Did the FBI have an obligation to inform their parents? I know they were over 18 but they were hardly mature adults. Will they get a fair trial or will it be cloaked in secrecy? What if they were your kids?
This story raises many questions I hope we get some answers.
45
Since he went to a public university which is partially financed with state and federal funds which he did not refuse. Then planned to join up with a terroist organization. IMHO he is guilty of theft, for stealing the future of someone else who could have went to college in his place.
Being cannon fodder does not require a college degree. Thieves have their right hand cut off by the daesh. If he cuts off his own right hand utilizing his left would be sufficient. Also maybe his fiance would want to replace one of the young women from Mosul who were executed recently for refusing to engage in intimate jihad with isis fighters. This was all in the news recently. No one can be so deluded as to not believe these atrocities are happening.
Or perhaps these two recognized themselves and wanted to migrate to where the other abbies are. Heading to the Last Town, raqqa from which the abbies will spread to cover the earth. Sort of a reverse Wayward Pines; but much more savage.
9
I was that age once. It was during the Vietnam war. There was no internet, but there were newspapers, and books, and a youth culture. It was an awful war, but I could never bring myself to publicly demonstrate against the war while my brothers (and some sisters) were fighting and dying. I don't judge those who did, and I'm glad that public opinion finally lead to our withdrawal. It was a bad war that we should never have been a part of, but it was a different time. We know what Syria and Iraq are like now, we know what ISIS is capable of doing to other human beings. No excuses for being young, clearly no excuse for being uninformed or stupid. ISIS is recruiting and they are finding empty young people who like the message. But someone's god help them, because American adults who choose violence against Americans in the name of religion should expect no quarter from those of us who don't want to wait for their return to spread the "word". I have no patience for religion in general when it comes to affairs of state, whether it's war or women's bodies. If the FBI is picking low hanging fruit, so be it. I have no patience for the entrapment nonsense either. These people clearly knew what they were doing. My sympathies are with the victims of their intended masters, not them.
44
We have but one son. One. My heart goes out to the parents and families of both these children. But for God's grace.....
23
More politically driven desperation by the federal government. They are luring young people into traps so that they can put an X on their "we kept Amerika safe" scorecards. Are we going to empty the jails of the non-violent, low level narcotics offenders from the "war on drugs" so that we can fill them up again with patsys from the "war on terror" ?
17
I am grateful that these young people did not get off to fight in a war in which they would have been cannon fodder and for the young woman rape fodder. I am not sure how they will feel, but I believe they are lucky.
2
Unfortunately, the FBI has a history of entrapping people, and the courts refuse to allow entrapment as a defense. We saw it here in Portland with 19-year-old Mohamed Mohamud. Mohamud's father, aware that radical Islamists were trying to recruit the boy, called the FBI for help. Instead, the FBI "befriended" him and provided him with fake materials for a bombing. He is now serving 30 years. During that time, I had a long discussion with an FBI employee who felt guilty about the whole thing. He justified it by saying that some people must be sacrificed in order to convince the rest of America that the FBI is hiding behind every mailbox.
I don't know all the details of this case, but Young and Dakhlalla have committed no crime. They hurt no one. They planted no bombs, real or otherwise. Nevertheless, I suspect that they will serve lengthy sentences.
I don't know all the details of this case, but Young and Dakhlalla have committed no crime. They hurt no one. They planted no bombs, real or otherwise. Nevertheless, I suspect that they will serve lengthy sentences.
40
If an FBI agent posing as an ISIS recruiter offered you a passage to Syria, would you jump at the offer and buy a ticket? They felt in their hearts that they were joining a noble cause.
2
I say let them leave..help them leave.
2
At this point in history, there are so many GOOD and fascinating things a young person can look to do all around the globe. Instead, these two go looking for utopia in war. Why did they fail to see all the potential wonder and possibility in this modern world? Why are they so eager to join in an effort to take the world back 1000 years?
37
I wish I had some answer to tha.t myself.
"Why are they so eager to join in an effort to take the world back 1000 years?"
Because that was the "golden era" of Islam. They believed in their hearts that Islam, as practiced by ISIS, was the noble path they needed to follow to be faithful to their duty to Allah.
Because that was the "golden era" of Islam. They believed in their hearts that Islam, as practiced by ISIS, was the noble path they needed to follow to be faithful to their duty to Allah.
1
"At this point in history, there are so many GOOD and fascinating things a young person can look to do all around the globe. Instead, these two go looking for utopia in war. Why did they fail to see all the potential wonder and possibility in this modern world?"
Because as Muslims they were compelled to follow Allah's commands to join jihad against the infidel world.
Because as Muslims they were compelled to follow Allah's commands to join jihad against the infidel world.
3
Sounds like classic FBI tactics to me. Lure and snare immature or vulnerable people into a plot, cleverly nudge them into doing something they probably would have never considered- all while the FBI paves the road and drops the breadcrumbs to the federal pen. Great job guys! Brilliant work!
30
exactly , the FBI cant find or subdue the real terrorist threats so they create fake ones - similar to the concept behind the Waco massacre - it keeps the FBI "relevant" and their pensions "worth it"
Sure, all you have to do is invite the average teen age American girl you see sitting at the mall to go to Syria and join ISIS, and she's jump at the opportunity.
3
So will people who think its a simple matter of profiling middle eastern men consider the homecoming queen and the blonde housewife from Pennsylvania when they consider who is dangerous to our safety? These are a couple of lovesick young people desperate to be part of something bigger than themselves. Very sad. And utterly human.
14
"So will people who think its a simple matter of profiling middle eastern men"
Being Middle Eastern isn't the point. Being a Muslim is the crucial factor. I don't hear about a lot of Buddhists, Jews, Presbyterians, Hindus or atheists joining ISIS.
Being Middle Eastern isn't the point. Being a Muslim is the crucial factor. I don't hear about a lot of Buddhists, Jews, Presbyterians, Hindus or atheists joining ISIS.
5
Paula, I'm wondering what crime One must commit or wish to commit for you to call their behavior Inhuman...
1
I find myself asking why? I wish I could answer that question but I am sure some can who have studied the subject. Oppression under the guise of religion is old.
1
"I find myself asking why?"
Jordan, let me help you. They were both Muslims who felt they had a duty to Allah to join the jihad against the decadent West. Why is this hard to understand?
Jordan, let me help you. They were both Muslims who felt they had a duty to Allah to join the jihad against the decadent West. Why is this hard to understand?
6
I was troubled by that bit about how the young woman was impressed by the idea that the Koran was unchanged, but the Bible had been translated often. I've heard that exact line from people in the course of discussions of religion... it kind of makes me think we should teach more about the history of religions in public school. People could get an objective overview, so they could see something like that in context.
But there would still be a huge problem of how easy it is to spread propaganda online. We can be correctly appalled at the behavior of ISIS, but if you just change the lenses, then we become the Great Satan (or the lame-stream media) and somebody else is the source of truth, and we are the source of lies and misery. (Before we panic too much, we should remember that this was just two kids, not the whole graduating class.)
But there would still be a huge problem of how easy it is to spread propaganda online. We can be correctly appalled at the behavior of ISIS, but if you just change the lenses, then we become the Great Satan (or the lame-stream media) and somebody else is the source of truth, and we are the source of lies and misery. (Before we panic too much, we should remember that this was just two kids, not the whole graduating class.)
8
It's not news, of course, that the most centered, loyal Americans grumble about their fair nation's sometimes righteous, sometimes outright arrogant treatment of foreign states. But to direct that frustration to a Cause of Hate, rather than to efforts that help correct wrongs and effect positive change, is always a head-scratcher.
The actions of Jaelyn Young and Muhammad Dakhlalla prove, once again, that a mind is a terrible thing to waste.
The actions of Jaelyn Young and Muhammad Dakhlalla prove, once again, that a mind is a terrible thing to waste.
9
They're both stone-cold killers. I can see it in their eyes.
Ridiculous? Oh course! But no less so than any other comment here.
This is all about reason, the prefrontal cortex, and the age of these two kids.
Entrapment? Not sure...legally, but I'll bet that if they were left alone for a few years, their ability to reason as adults would have kicked in, and their admiration for ISIS would have diminished dramatically. Without the prompting of the FBI, I suspect they would not have taken any concrete steps to effect this bizarre plan.
Ridiculous? Oh course! But no less so than any other comment here.
This is all about reason, the prefrontal cortex, and the age of these two kids.
Entrapment? Not sure...legally, but I'll bet that if they were left alone for a few years, their ability to reason as adults would have kicked in, and their admiration for ISIS would have diminished dramatically. Without the prompting of the FBI, I suspect they would not have taken any concrete steps to effect this bizarre plan.
20
The legal standard for entrapment is almost impossible to meet. This means that it is open season for a career-building agent to find vulnerable young people and persuade / seduce them into something like this. The agent never will be blamed.
Let's not forget, Chris Christie began his political career when, as U.S. Attorney, he persuaded a young, hapless guy into acting in support of a "terrorist" cause -- I don't recall the details, but it doesn't matter. And this will be a thousand times easier in Mississippi than it was in New Jersey; not to mention that in this case we have two people who are members of minority groups.
We all know that young people are impressionable and easily manipulated. Brain research continually reinforces that. And indeed, we all count on this, because so much of our economic activity depends on persuading young people to buy products, from cosmetics to cellphones to music recordings.
I hope and pray that these young people become represented by brilliant lawyers who can bring us - or at least a jury of 12 - to their senses about how these young people have been used by these agents, their fellow Americans.
Let's not forget, Chris Christie began his political career when, as U.S. Attorney, he persuaded a young, hapless guy into acting in support of a "terrorist" cause -- I don't recall the details, but it doesn't matter. And this will be a thousand times easier in Mississippi than it was in New Jersey; not to mention that in this case we have two people who are members of minority groups.
We all know that young people are impressionable and easily manipulated. Brain research continually reinforces that. And indeed, we all count on this, because so much of our economic activity depends on persuading young people to buy products, from cosmetics to cellphones to music recordings.
I hope and pray that these young people become represented by brilliant lawyers who can bring us - or at least a jury of 12 - to their senses about how these young people have been used by these agents, their fellow Americans.
1
Suspect what you like, but these adults hoped to kill people.
3
Given the amount of horror ISIL and Al-Queda seek to hit America with we must not let any members go about their way. They may try to destroy an airliner, spread radioactive material in a city, bomb a sporting event.
2
This young couple was right to be concerned. A young man would likely end up cannon fodder. A young woman, having no rights, would be sold or used horribly. But somehow the grim brutality is sold as a rousing religious quest. Maybe youth just hear what they want to hear.
I don't know if this was entrapment, or if they'll do prison time. I do think their lives have been saved- at least for the time being.
I don't know if this was entrapment, or if they'll do prison time. I do think their lives have been saved- at least for the time being.
10
FBI informants!! Wonder how much they were paid to entrap these impressionable young people. Remember the Oregon Case, it was thrown after evidence of entrapment was discovered. When informants become big business and is corporatized, a lot of young people in this country will become casualty of big business. The same philosophy applies to the industrial prison complex.
18
If there exists even an iota of truth to these allegations it needs to be investigated. Do you honestly think that with all the press attention that this will garner they could get away with unjustly
Prosecuting these people.
While I fully agree that our criminal justice system is in need of a major overhaul I don't think that a blackball will be tolerated in this situation.
If by chance they are prosecuted, they probably end up in a cushy Federal pen
And not in some derelict southern state facility.
Prosecuting these people.
While I fully agree that our criminal justice system is in need of a major overhaul I don't think that a blackball will be tolerated in this situation.
If by chance they are prosecuted, they probably end up in a cushy Federal pen
And not in some derelict southern state facility.
The question I ask myself is whether they would have done this without the encouragement -- and long seduction -- of the FBI. Should agents of the state be in the business of testing the behavior of citizens with deception? What crime could I be induced to commit by someone falsely representing themself? In addition, the "material support" charge is alarmingly wide. One man's charity is another's terrorist organization. The case fills me with unease.
59
So our tax dollars are going towards hundreds or thousands of hours of FBI personnel chatting with people online, trying to coax them into joining ISIS? Sounds counterproductive to me.
51
This is a non-sequitur. I saw nothing of this in this article. That is, it seems like the two persons were not coaxed into joining ISIS, but were attempting to do so of their own volition.
4
They aren't trying to coax anyone to join ISIS. To the contrary, they are trying to catch ISIS jihadists before they kill us.
7
After the Boston Marathon bomber tragedy, there was no end to criticism of the FBI and the "authorities" for "failing" to aggressively follow "indicators" that the Tsarnaev brothers (especially the elder) were up to no good. We're not going stop another 9-11 attack by sitting around waiting for it to happen. Bravo Zulu to the FBI for their good work.
6
What do they themselves say about why they wanted to do this? If you want to find out why they did it, reading comments online from US readers of the NY Times is not the way to do it.
40
Unless these two enter some very quick guilty pleas, they will not be talking about their motives any time soon. As for why people are speculating about what their motives were, speculation is a natural reaction when people do not have any information.
1
Agree. It would be worth cutting them a deal, entrapment or no, to explore in detail why they thought what they thought and tried to do what they are alleged to have done. That would be worth knowing.
1
I agree with you,Howard. Any thoughts on how we might come to know their stories in their own words? We might be surprised what they thought they were doing. Until we know, we don't know.
Let's not act so surprised that the young take on extreme causes. In the 1930s, impressionable young folks joined or became fellow travelers to communism, and less often to Nazism. In the 1960s, white college kids imagined revolution and a few even acted. Yes, it is terrible, but let's not overreact. Extreme idealism is what the young do. Sometimes it goes terribly wrong.
166
@TM: "In the 1930s, impressionable young folks joined or became fellow travelers to communism, ..."
That was during the Depression, when the Soviet Union seemed to offer job opportunities. Unfortunately, the people looking for work there ended up in Stalin's prison system. See:
"The forsaken : an American tragedy in Stalin's Russia" by Tim Tzouliadis.
That was during the Depression, when the Soviet Union seemed to offer job opportunities. Unfortunately, the people looking for work there ended up in Stalin's prison system. See:
"The forsaken : an American tragedy in Stalin's Russia" by Tim Tzouliadis.
But what then made the children of prosperity in the late 1960s do very much the same - having been there (the 1960s) I can tell you that all they were doing was separating from their parents, but in a far to extreme way.
Yes, you've got that right!
ISIS is as
Horrifyingly wrong as they could get..
Communism? Nazism? IDEALISM??
OMG
ISIS is as
Horrifyingly wrong as they could get..
Communism? Nazism? IDEALISM??
OMG
It just goes to show there is a big difference between book smart and common sense smart or street smarts. They may have all the educational background and scholastic credentials, but it's obvious they haven't learned anything regarding life.
44
Well they were not just smart but supposedly well adjusted.
1
20 hard years in stir should matriculate 'em.
1
I really have to wonder if these two would have gotten so far toward ISIS had not the FBI enticed them. Would everyone not had been better off, especially them, if someone had recognized their leanings and sought to intervene in their lives in a more positive fashion? This is very disturbing.
247
"Enticed"? They showed an active interest before the FBI became involved. Creating opportunity is not the same as creating motive. I agree that their close friends and family should have intervened had they known. But ISIS recruiters are not stupid. They groom followers to keep it all hidden.
2
I am surprised at the comments which are sympathetic to these young people, apparently grounded in the idea that they are simply naive, or rebellious, or entrapped, but harmless. Are you serious people?
These people are older than many of our fine young Americans who served with our armed forced, fought and even died in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Surely this couple were well aware of the deliberate, cruel beheadings of innocents perpetrated by the organization they sought to join. They must have been well aware of the goals of ISIL as the reported social media cheers for terrorist tactics revealed. It is laughable that FBI agents could mislead this couple about ISIL and "trick" them into volunteering.
What better way to foil the recruitment tactics of ISIL than to intercept those potential fanatics before they get to take up arms.
What motivates anyone to make excuses for this pair?
These people are older than many of our fine young Americans who served with our armed forced, fought and even died in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Surely this couple were well aware of the deliberate, cruel beheadings of innocents perpetrated by the organization they sought to join. They must have been well aware of the goals of ISIL as the reported social media cheers for terrorist tactics revealed. It is laughable that FBI agents could mislead this couple about ISIL and "trick" them into volunteering.
What better way to foil the recruitment tactics of ISIL than to intercept those potential fanatics before they get to take up arms.
What motivates anyone to make excuses for this pair?
373
A more nuanced understanding of the willingness to be human, perhaps. Perhaps even compassion. I do not mean to trouble a hornets nest of value propositions or morality. I am simply saying that America has its own explaining to do. And until it does so, children will be seduced by a call to meaning wherever that perceived meaning sits.
1
It's hard to know what they believed or didn't believe was true about ISIL as presented by the FBI. But it's clear that the notion that two such promising young Americans could turn to such evil is nearly beyond our own ability to comprehend it and almost too painful to readily accept. I may be naive, but I would have preferred to see their families alerted and steps taken to stop them and redeem them if possible.
4
Ben asked "What motivates anyone to make excuses for this pair?"
Common sense, Ben ! Our Law Enforcement folks are no longer our protectors, some of them have turned in to predators. Some hunt with their guns, others stalk their prey on Facebook
Common sense, Ben ! Our Law Enforcement folks are no longer our protectors, some of them have turned in to predators. Some hunt with their guns, others stalk their prey on Facebook
2
People should be free to go to countries where ISIS is powerful. But they should not be permitted re-entrance. Their passports should be rescinded.
85
The U.S. government cannot deny entry into the United States to a U.S. citizen.
However, a U.S. passport is the property of the U.S. government and so it can be seized.
However, a U.S. passport is the property of the U.S. government and so it can be seized.
You can't be serious? Free to potentially engage in harmful, violent, extremist, terroristic and illegal behavior? Get real.
I agree with the US allowing them to go to Syria but never letting them back into this country. There they can worship and practice their religion of "peace and tolerance" with their ISIS brethren.
59
Youth and stupidity are joined at the hip.
ISIS would disappear if boys especially could be locked up at the age of 18 and not freed till they were 25.
Unfortunately, this solution to the problem, while guaranteed, is not practical.
ISIS would disappear if boys especially could be locked up at the age of 18 and not freed till they were 25.
Unfortunately, this solution to the problem, while guaranteed, is not practical.
25
I would say that youth and ignorance are joined at the hip.
1
That would not have worked well in our case. We were married at 19, had three children by 22; five by 28.
Married for 48 years now.
Speak for yourself. And by the way, my maternal grandparents were married at 19, my paternal g-parents at 22, my parents-in-law at 19, my parents at 23 and 20, and on and on....
Married for 48 years now.
Speak for yourself. And by the way, my maternal grandparents were married at 19, my paternal g-parents at 22, my parents-in-law at 19, my parents at 23 and 20, and on and on....
Wars would disappear as well. Without young males to fight them, we would be forced to find peaceful ways to live together.
Young , in love, and naive is a lot different than young, in love, and stupid.
10
I have to agree with others that an FBI sting operations with agents acting as ISIS representatives is a little bit questionable. In such a situation you always have to worry the kids were the victims of a set up where the agents sugar coated ISIS and made it sound like an exciting adventure.
34
Sugar coated? A group that specializes in mass rape and beheadings?
10
Please. FBI agents are well trained in the law. They can creat an opportunity but never a motive. Besides, ultimately a jury of 12 will decide their guilt or innocence. Something BTW you will not receive in most Islamic countries.
2
Heard of The Newburgh Four? Examine this before assuming the worst. Who is not to be trusted? ISIS is comprised of animals with marketing skills. This movement is not Islam. Like we need to tell young people about the danger of Heroin, the dangers of ISIS should be explained by the Real Muslim community. Allah does not support ISIS but humankind has been given free will. This group is using free will as psychopaths do. Egocentric and sadistic. Beware.
28
Young people are attracted to the forbidden, to doing something exciting that their parents would not want them to do....
26
Sure, some kids stay out late, smoke, drink etc. But join ISIS? That is a whole different animal.
67
Exciting? Like cut peoples heads off, rape children and massacre villages? Some forbidden.
10
Yes, it's how we all learn things in life.
Seeing this sounds like old news, very old news, to someone who is not young. When the FBI identifies and arrests mature adults who want to join ISIS, it may be comforting. But this is basically a press release about two otherwise completely ordinary kids seeking fame. Arresting immature individuals who know little doesn't make us safer. Think - who actually left and came back to threaten the US? Therein lies the worry. Hopefully the FBI focuses on these people. And perhaps they are doing so.
20
I am sure they doing both. Don't they have to leave first in order to come back? And why should their immaturity make them less dangerous on their return? Young people are hired to fight in every army of the world for a reason. They are not just physically fit, but also more willing to run risks. Just look at auto insurance rates by age if you want evidence for that.
11
I find many of the comments here curious and disturbing. At the end of the day no one was hurt and no "material support" was provided to a foreign terrorist organization. So where is the crime? This young couple clearly suffers from some serious delusions,but that is not a criminal act. Were that a crime much of our population would be incarcerated. The xenophobia and intolerence that forms the basis of a response that supports locking up young deluded kids like this is frankly creepy. It reeks of Big Brother and police state tactics. I have a hard time believing that two young middle class suburban Americans would be of much, if any, use to the animals that call themselves ISIS. This heavy handed response to the "siren song" of ISIS only encourages this behavoir among those that suffer from the delusion that ISIS has any moral standing whatsoever.
279
Stunning. I find your comment stunning. Daesh could use them by simply having them. Each new American who joins up is a social media coup for them. Daesh could use them by training them up and sending them back to the US with their US passports to commit violence in the name of Isis. Daesh could use them by burning them alive in a cage like the Jordanian pilot in an attempt to inflame US public outrage so as to draw us into another war. Daesh could have the young woman narrate a beheading video so that her American accent would let the world know that Americans had joined the cause. The list of how Daesh could use them is endless.
183
I agree with you that we should let those who want to leave... leave. Good riddance.
15
I agree, and it puts young Muslims in a defensive position which only alienates them further. I don't see how sympathy or identification with a group is a crime, or a conspiracy to commit one. There must be a better way to address delusions than prison.
14
Sounds like entrapment to me. If these two young people were not paying much attention to the details of ISIS in the media, and were primarily introduced to the the ISIS message by online undercover FBI agents making ISIS ideals sound like a great cause to support (not unlike our young adults traveling to Africa to help suffering people with Christian organizations), then they are victims of entrapment. This is plausible. It happens not too uncommonly in FBI stings. I hope they have good lawyers!
117
That's not what the article said. The FBI was drawn to them because of her pro ISIS postings.
57
The FBI recognized her chatter on social media. Media coverage of beheadings of innocent people & reports of rape seem so unreal, there are young people convinced ISIS is misunderstood. Because of free speech, I doubt there's anything the authorities can do legally to educate these misguided people; it seems like the only legal action is arresting them when they commit illegal acts. Wish we could place them in cities or other countries where they can help suffering people.
Did you actually read what you wrote?
It is as unlike our young adults traveling to Africa to help suffering people with Christian organizations as possible.
It is as unlike our young adults traveling to Africa to help suffering people with Christian organizations as possible.
2
Well, the good news is a young black woman can fall in love with and marry a Muslim man in Mississippi
320
ExPeter C - "Well, the good news is a young black woman can fall in love with and marry a Muslim man in Mississippi"
You think so? That may have been the snowflake that started the avalanche that hit those two.
You think so? That may have been the snowflake that started the avalanche that hit those two.
9
But she can't be married in the Muslim tradition without her father's permission.
Which she didn't get.
Which she didn't get.
2
Were they wooed by ISIS or by the FBI pretending to be ISIS? Someone pretending to be a bad guy might not let slip the kind of controlling, misogynistic, and limited thoughts that would reveal the true faulty nature of Islamic State extremism.
Like others commenting here, I'm disturbed that these young people will face 20 years in prison for exchanging instant messages and emails with US agents. What is the text of those dialogues? Do the agents, eager to show that they are keeping America safe, put on an act to make ISIS appealing? Do they insist that the videos of brutality and murder are fakes? Do they create a narrative by which the young people are convinced that ISIS has not really done what it has done--that it is something else altogether?
Who monitors all of this cyber baiting? How does our government make sure that the agents are creating a realistic version of the kind of dialogue that would be had with some fanatic on the other side of the planet? And why do the agents have to pretend, anyway? Can't they eavesdrop on real conversations between ISIS recruiters and their potential recruits?
And given the gullibility of the very young--does it really make sense to lock such young people away for 20 years rather than sitting them down and talking to them about the nature of cults and manipulation and giving them a second chance?
I have a bad feeling about this. Presidents can destroy nations and walk free. But the young are imprisoned for foolish email?
Like others commenting here, I'm disturbed that these young people will face 20 years in prison for exchanging instant messages and emails with US agents. What is the text of those dialogues? Do the agents, eager to show that they are keeping America safe, put on an act to make ISIS appealing? Do they insist that the videos of brutality and murder are fakes? Do they create a narrative by which the young people are convinced that ISIS has not really done what it has done--that it is something else altogether?
Who monitors all of this cyber baiting? How does our government make sure that the agents are creating a realistic version of the kind of dialogue that would be had with some fanatic on the other side of the planet? And why do the agents have to pretend, anyway? Can't they eavesdrop on real conversations between ISIS recruiters and their potential recruits?
And given the gullibility of the very young--does it really make sense to lock such young people away for 20 years rather than sitting them down and talking to them about the nature of cults and manipulation and giving them a second chance?
I have a bad feeling about this. Presidents can destroy nations and walk free. But the young are imprisoned for foolish email?
587
That's what a trial is for. You'll have the answers.
2
I share many of your concerns, however, they were actively traveling to join. It isn't accurate to say they simply wrote "foolish email." Seems to me that some kind of reasonable punishment like one of those ankle monitors, might be more appropriate. Supervised probation or what have you. I imagine they'll wise up soon enough, in the meantime, I'd like to think a sensible middle ground between "sitting them down and talking to them" and 20 years, can be found.
2
You're jumping to as many conclusions as questions you create with your mind made up before you even ask the question. Could you possible wait to hear more and then pass judgement? ISIS is not some sweet little protest movement. It is a band of murdering a raping extremists hell bent on killing anyone in their path. Theses two are not innocent young children. If indeed they are flirting with joining this horrible movement, then they should be locked up and the key thrown away. My heart breaks for all of the women who have been sex slaves to ISIS and the people whose lives were lost. You wring your hands over these two who may have made some foolish texts. I will wring my hands over those who have lost their lives to the foolish ideology these two may have romanticized.
4
Why isnt the message being absorbed by our young? Caught up in the headiness of a new belief system somehow these young adults are intoxicated by the ideal of an Islamic State. Its not enough to learn the fundamentals of Islam , unfortunately these kids want to fast track their knowledge and be where they perceive the action to be. The sad thing is in order to fully understand why Isis are far deviated from Islamic ideals...one would need to understand the ideological schism that separates true Islam and this peverse caricature.
It's too late for these two but maybe we can help others.
It's too late for these two but maybe we can help others.
19
College educated, socially engaged, both with seemingly supportive family lives, and yet they still wanted to run off to Daesh controlled territories. There was obviously something going on in these young people's lives that friends and family were not aware of that led them to their engage Daesh. Time will reveal more details about why two individuals who majored in healing professions chose Daesh over NGOs or other entities working with refugees trying to escape the latest madness in the Middle East.
304
Perhaps they simply wanted to run away from home and all they knew, but they still wanted to have a family. Unlike a lot of places, ISIS promises both.
This was a great service to those kids. Especially the girl who would have been a sex slave for the rest of her life. They will understand and appreciate the FBI in a few years.
102
How could a handsome young couple with everything going for them want to join the Islamic State? I think it could be a toxic brew of youthful idealism and the isolation of social media. Social media doesn't connect people to the wider world but only to the circles they choose to be in. In this case, they saw a brilliantly crafted propaganda campaign promising Utopia, a place where they can practice their true faith and have a totally meaningful life (unlike dreary ole Starkville.) They should be glad the FBI caught them.
33
Except for the fact that the FBI were the ones who created at least part of the brilliantly crafted propaganda campaign that seduced them
5
"the isolation of social media". Very well put. Spawning mischief everywhere, hardly understood anywhere.
1
I think it's sad that a bright young man with a psychology degree has determined his Dad doesn't live religious beliefs the way he has decided they should be lived, and then entraps his wife/soulmate into his sphere of thinking.
19
Have you read something I haven't, evidence that he entrapped her?
2
Since his mother where traditional Muslim garb, safe to say the son learned his fundamentalist religious beliefs at home.
4
The part of this story that is missing troubles me. I cannot understand how these two could leap from middle America in to the middle of war torn Syria without leaving more sign of their disaffection with our world. It makes no sense.
What persuasion did the agents use to move them to such ends? What was there about their lives that made them think that such a step would serve them better? Now, at 19 and 21 they have ruined their lives and their reputations. Twenty years is a high price to pay for youthful stupidity. What a shame.
What persuasion did the agents use to move them to such ends? What was there about their lives that made them think that such a step would serve them better? Now, at 19 and 21 they have ruined their lives and their reputations. Twenty years is a high price to pay for youthful stupidity. What a shame.
519
I am amazed at the tenor of this discussion. First, there almost certainly were signs that the FBI picked up on social media. That is likely how this all started.
Second, ISIS (and al qaeda) want to kill us and they have a very dedicated, organized program to recruit Americans and other Westerners. Ultimately, they will return a portion of those folks back to us with the intend to do us great harm.
What makes you think it was the FBI that radicalized these individuals? The FBI and our army, navy, air force, and marines are out there every day protecting us! Is there no gratitude for the hours and the sweat and blood that is being spent on this effort? We really, truly live in a more sheltered, coddled society than I ever imagined when the starting assumption in a story about ISIS (ISIS!) is FBI entrapment.
Second, ISIS (and al qaeda) want to kill us and they have a very dedicated, organized program to recruit Americans and other Westerners. Ultimately, they will return a portion of those folks back to us with the intend to do us great harm.
What makes you think it was the FBI that radicalized these individuals? The FBI and our army, navy, air force, and marines are out there every day protecting us! Is there no gratitude for the hours and the sweat and blood that is being spent on this effort? We really, truly live in a more sheltered, coddled society than I ever imagined when the starting assumption in a story about ISIS (ISIS!) is FBI entrapment.
98
Losing their souls and possibly their lives in the effort to kill everyone that disagrees with their religion-flavored totalitarian beliefs would have been an even higher price for their "youthful stupidity." At least they will be paying the price for their stupidity and not scores of innocent people who just want to live their lives and raise their children in peace.
53
FYI, Mississippi is in the South not 'Middle America.'
And anyone who can be temped to join the Islamic State, using FBI agents or not, has let go of any moral compass to a death cult organization that advocates the raping, enslavement, and at times killing of children and women, and killing of non-Sunni's and non-Muslims.
I'm with several people here who commented that we should let them go to Syria after confiscating their passports and never allow them back into the United States and put a 'bolo' out on them to Interpol to ensure they don't come back home via Europe or settle there to wage 'holy war' on the 'infidels.' I have little sympathy for this couple after reading for the past year that atrocities the Islamic State has committed in the name of the Prophet and Allah.
And anyone who can be temped to join the Islamic State, using FBI agents or not, has let go of any moral compass to a death cult organization that advocates the raping, enslavement, and at times killing of children and women, and killing of non-Sunni's and non-Muslims.
I'm with several people here who commented that we should let them go to Syria after confiscating their passports and never allow them back into the United States and put a 'bolo' out on them to Interpol to ensure they don't come back home via Europe or settle there to wage 'holy war' on the 'infidels.' I have little sympathy for this couple after reading for the past year that atrocities the Islamic State has committed in the name of the Prophet and Allah.
8
From the beginning of the ISIS rise, we have read thousands of reports and articles and online stories of the ISIS treatment of non-believers in the ISIS version of Islam. We have also read many other stories of young men, and some young women willingly giving their bodies and selling their souls to ISIS.
ISIS states clearly their views online of the righteousness of killing and beheading and burning alive of non-believers. They also advertise world-wide that sex-slavery is blessed by their God and that slaves and willing wives await the volunteers. The foundation for ISIS to exist is the centuries old culture of the middle east and the theology of Islam that has as core beliefs to this day that Islam is at war with non-believers.
ISIS has attracted a few non muslim Westerners to join the killing and raping cult, but overwhelmingly the volunteers are muslim young men.
For the few Americans who get caught up in the idea of founding an Islamic state hostile to all other ideologies, I suggest we simply let them go and treat them like the rest of ISIS fighters.
They are young and made a horrible mistake. However, this is not equal to driving drunk or taking dangerous drugs. They intended to join a killing cult and rejoiced at the recent death of innocent Americans at the hands of another twisted individual. We should let them go experience their paradise and meet their god.
to ISIS
ISIS states clearly their views online of the righteousness of killing and beheading and burning alive of non-believers. They also advertise world-wide that sex-slavery is blessed by their God and that slaves and willing wives await the volunteers. The foundation for ISIS to exist is the centuries old culture of the middle east and the theology of Islam that has as core beliefs to this day that Islam is at war with non-believers.
ISIS has attracted a few non muslim Westerners to join the killing and raping cult, but overwhelmingly the volunteers are muslim young men.
For the few Americans who get caught up in the idea of founding an Islamic state hostile to all other ideologies, I suggest we simply let them go and treat them like the rest of ISIS fighters.
They are young and made a horrible mistake. However, this is not equal to driving drunk or taking dangerous drugs. They intended to join a killing cult and rejoiced at the recent death of innocent Americans at the hands of another twisted individual. We should let them go experience their paradise and meet their god.
to ISIS
69
I agree whole heartedly with everything that you have stated. I only wish that you that you would have dropped the word Americans in your next to last sentence. There have been far greater number of non-Americans killed, raped and tortured by this group than innocent Americans. They are after non-believers, not just Americans.
1
"attempting and conspiring" in other words never really did anything to aid. Join the "Islamic State", I did not realize that any country had adopted Isis as their official governing body. Given there are limited facts in the article but sounds like another government sting operation that entrapped two young adults who reacted to the US hypocritical middle east policy.
Don't get me wrong Isis is a terrible fanatical terrorist group. But I am thinking I might be investigated for aiding the enemy just by writing this comment.
Don't get me wrong Isis is a terrible fanatical terrorist group. But I am thinking I might be investigated for aiding the enemy just by writing this comment.
11
So you think the FBI told them, "I know how you've heard we behead western journalists and any other random person that we stumble upon, destroy archeological sites of antiquity, rape cities of women and children en masse including 11 year old girls, murder their young brothers and fathers, but we're really nice people"?
10
This is the fruit of excessive individualism, we have discounted community, people are looking to belong, making it worse is this diversity, integration ideology. Neighborhoods are just a jumble of people with no core, no identity, no common interests or cultural background. Adding to that is people do not walk, they drive everywhere.. it is a form of hell on earth
9
"Excessive individualism"? How is that different from ordinary personal freedom?
3
Obviously, there is more to this story.
27
Much as the idealists would wet themselves at any "interference" with the Internet, this episode illustrates just how powerful can be that medium for propaganda.
I would hasten to add there is undoubtedly a parallel universe of racist hatred and any other number of missions, causes and belief systems.
I would happily support any effort to block any and all sites broadcasting hatred and recruiting people to murderous causes.
I would hasten to add there is undoubtedly a parallel universe of racist hatred and any other number of missions, causes and belief systems.
I would happily support any effort to block any and all sites broadcasting hatred and recruiting people to murderous causes.
8
Oh, please, Frank! As long as the Internet continues to be sufficiently well-monitored by the FBI and the NSA that a random couple of college students can be found, suckered, and arrested, why should access to the Internet be as closely controlled as it in Red China? That sounds like a waste of tax-payer money worse than food stamps. Besides, isn't *small* government the ideal? How does increasing the government's ability to control the activities of a population of 315,000,000 people meet that ideal?
1
So the charge is "attempting and conspiring to knowingly provide material support and resources to a foreign terrorist organization." It will be very interesting to see how the prosecution is conducted. This case shows the depth of the problem potentially facing any government attempting to identify bona fide threats to the security of itself and its citizens: How many such occult "conversions" might there be out there, if such unlikely young people as these can be swayed to act on misdirected sympathy, and how can they possibly be identified and neutralized?
3
As WC Fields once said, there's a sucker born every minute.
26
It was P. T. Barnum, but whoever it was, he was right.
8
You mean that they don't read the New York Times in Starkville, Mississippi and know what ISiS really is?!!!
14
I want to know more but this sounds like entrapment. Young American Muslims may feel anger and persecution and yes that could be turned to nefarious ends... but WHO started this?
It's starting to feel a bit like the red scare ... or when everyone was scared of "bomb throwing anarchists" -- there's a little truth to each scare, but more scare than substance.
I hate the "watch your neighbors it could be anyone" fear that's mounting in this country. To me it's just not American!
It's starting to feel a bit like the red scare ... or when everyone was scared of "bomb throwing anarchists" -- there's a little truth to each scare, but more scare than substance.
I hate the "watch your neighbors it could be anyone" fear that's mounting in this country. To me it's just not American!
136
The FBI caught up with them following their months of careful planning to join ISIS. Entrapment would be where a disguised FBI agent has actively recruited them.
29
They engaged. They found themselves in chats with purported Isis. Would you say the same if your son was charged with attempted conspiracy to paedophilia if he made a plan online with purported paedophiles to rape young boys? "But he never actually raped anyone!" you would cry. Or would you? Im not concerned about my civil liberties because I am not chit chatting with Isis about how I can come join the beheading, child raping, enslaving, genocide party. When I do - feel free to come prosecute me. As I'll be morally and legally culpable.
22
I don't want to read endless articles about a couple from MS. We should have let them go, so that they could learn from the trip. Surely they would have found out whatever facts there are to find, but now, they'll never believe anyone in the U.S.
2
Wonder what Dr. Phil would say?? seriously>>> Youth is often disenfranchised (hey, my friends were SDS and arrested at the Chicago 68 convention) but somehow we did not want to kill....We made noise.. (And theft during riots seems to be a crime of opportunity -- more than anything else.)
Looking forward to the discussion.
Looking forward to the discussion.
9
It was gratifying you didn't see the need kill, but you cannot dismiss the fact there was a significant subset of young people during the 1960s who saw political murder as the only means to attack a society that was viewed as morally bankrupt.
So today, considering the growing inequality in our country, the exponential rise of racial hatred, a political system that is clearly broken and the continued thirst among our citizens for violence and war, when an entity like ISIS comes along and says the only to cure this societal sickness is to tear down everything rebuild from the ground up this is a message that is hard to ignore.
But, we do to counter this message? With fear.
Because, our society has yet to address the elephant in the room that what we most is not Islamic terrorism but the willingness to take a hard look in the mirror and admit that we are collectively sick and are in dire need of change.
So today, considering the growing inequality in our country, the exponential rise of racial hatred, a political system that is clearly broken and the continued thirst among our citizens for violence and war, when an entity like ISIS comes along and says the only to cure this societal sickness is to tear down everything rebuild from the ground up this is a message that is hard to ignore.
But, we do to counter this message? With fear.
Because, our society has yet to address the elephant in the room that what we most is not Islamic terrorism but the willingness to take a hard look in the mirror and admit that we are collectively sick and are in dire need of change.
2
No, there was not a significant minority of young people who saw political murder as the way. There was a small minority willing to destroy property. Those willing to injure or kill other humans were infinitesimally small.
3
t was gratifying you didn't see the need kill, but you cannot dismiss the fact there was a significant subset of young people during the 1960s who saw political murder as the only means to attack a society that was viewed as morally bankrupt.
So today, not much has changed.
Inequality is growing in leaps and bounds. Racial hatred has taken on a new life. We have a political system that is clearly broken and to top it off we still have a collective juvenile thirst for violence and war.
So, when an entity like ISIS comes along and says the only to cure this societal sickness is to tear down everything rebuild from the ground up this is a message that is hard to ignore.
But, how have we countered this message?
With denial and fear.
Because, our society has yet to address the elephant in the room that what we fear most is not Islamic terrorism but the willingness to take a hard look in the mirror and admit that we are collectively sick and are in dire need of change.
Until we do that, Islamic radicals have the upper hand in the fight for the soul of our society.
So today, not much has changed.
Inequality is growing in leaps and bounds. Racial hatred has taken on a new life. We have a political system that is clearly broken and to top it off we still have a collective juvenile thirst for violence and war.
So, when an entity like ISIS comes along and says the only to cure this societal sickness is to tear down everything rebuild from the ground up this is a message that is hard to ignore.
But, how have we countered this message?
With denial and fear.
Because, our society has yet to address the elephant in the room that what we fear most is not Islamic terrorism but the willingness to take a hard look in the mirror and admit that we are collectively sick and are in dire need of change.
Until we do that, Islamic radicals have the upper hand in the fight for the soul of our society.
4
Such a waste.
54
Young people need a sense of purpose. They need to feel that they are contributing to building something. We teach our best students that "a good job" is the highest aim of life, that "a good job" has to be practical in the judgment of others, and that the only point of education is to get "a good job". American culture is full of cynicism and self-interest. Youthful idealism or combativeness demands an outlet. It's no wonder young people are desperate to find another path.
But the Islamic State? That is truly beyond my comprehension. I literally can't imagine what motivated this promising couple. This will be a story I follow anxiously, looking for anything that will make sense of it.
But the Islamic State? That is truly beyond my comprehension. I literally can't imagine what motivated this promising couple. This will be a story I follow anxiously, looking for anything that will make sense of it.
289
These two kids seemed to be on track to "succeed at the path of getting a good job and career", so it's not like they're particularly disenfranchised youth grasping for a cause to support (or at least not the way this article paints it).
9
The article doesn't say whether or not Ms. Young had applied for or been accepted into a college program. She is a high school graduate, so her "research " job was undoubtably washing dishes in a lab, a minimum wage, no benefit position. Entry level lab techs are required to have at least an associate degree in a relevant area. She probably didn't even get 40 hours/week employment. Certainly, this doesn't explain her actions, but unless the article is omitting her academic work after high school, Ms. Young 's career track was short and dead-end.
1
They were motivated by Islamic scripts. Scripts that are at odds with a democratic society.
1
How very sad for the parents of this young couple.
209
Only the most hopelessly naïve would think young people could choose to join terrorist groups, or murder people in a movie theater or school, and the parents were not the problem.
1
We are constantly broadcasting to our young people that their future is terribly compromised by ever-widening income equality, by a less stable economic future, that we don't care about our planet, or their children's planet, a country militarized, polarized, and more brutish as it blames all it's problems on the poor and downtrodden, and anyone not like ourselves. We are abolishing our beloved social contract and concern for others. The media certainly isn't helping, and often contributing to the problem (even you, NYT).
Already troubled people will be moved by something that makes them feel as if there is order in the world, that they belong, or that they have a purpose -- whether religion or the Islamic State -- we should not be too surprised.
Already troubled people will be moved by something that makes them feel as if there is order in the world, that they belong, or that they have a purpose -- whether religion or the Islamic State -- we should not be too surprised.
130
We offer our young people nothing positive to fight for, only negatives to fight against.
20
Judging by the commenters here, I don't think many youth are reading the NY Times.
4
And no, teaching our children that the people who die with the most money in their bank accounts somehow win.
5
Congratulations to the FBI. I am sure this is difficult work and it's impressive that they are able to quickly thwart such an effort.
Part of me wishes we would:
1. Put them on the next flight to Damascus.
2. Take away their passports and be done with them.
Part of me wishes we would:
1. Put them on the next flight to Damascus.
2. Take away their passports and be done with them.
147
I tend to agree, let them go, but under no circumstances can they return. And I don't buy any of the baloney that the parents weren't aware of how radicalized they had become.....
77
If the parents weren't aware, then they failed in the most important job they have.
25
Exactly. They will have what they wanted, and we won't have people going on and on about their "entrapment" and how it's too bad they are going to prison. Let them go, and don't let them come back.
5
The reporter should look farther into the issue of possible entrapment. It seems the FBI may have coaxed the couple.
398
How could they coax the young woman to say: “Alhamdulillah,” she wrote, using the Arabic word of praise to God, “the numbers of supporters are growing.” Unless she was joking, which doesn't seem plausible.
83
ISIS has compiled a very sophisticated video program(s) which paint ISIS in a much different light than when they get over there. I doubt seriously the FBI entrapped them. Any good attorney would be able to expose that and file motions to suppress
50
They apparently purchased airline tickets, so they were planning to follow through with their plan to join ISIS. They weren't entrapped into doing that, presumably.
I feel sorry for these obviously confused young people, and, in particular, for Ms. Young, who was probably motivated and influenced by her affection for Mr. Dakhlalla more than by religious or political conviction. Whatever happens to her now, however, it is likely better than any treatment that she would have received from ISIS.
I feel sorry for these obviously confused young people, and, in particular, for Ms. Young, who was probably motivated and influenced by her affection for Mr. Dakhlalla more than by religious or political conviction. Whatever happens to her now, however, it is likely better than any treatment that she would have received from ISIS.
199