Germany take care of its people. Strong unions, worker protections, universal healthcare, free education. America could care less about anyone but the rich.
22
This is a model to aspire to. What if we avoided prison sentences for minor offenses, instead requiring - say - repayment for shoplifting, or community service if the offender is unable to pay anything? What if we treated prisoners with respect and indicated that respect was expected of them?
There are a few - a very few - who would not respond. There are some who we cannot expect to release, ever: serial rapists, murderers, et cetera. But we should review Germany's model and use it as a basis for redesigning our penal system.
There are a few - a very few - who would not respond. There are some who we cannot expect to release, ever: serial rapists, murderers, et cetera. But we should review Germany's model and use it as a basis for redesigning our penal system.
17
There may be philosophical differences between the US and other countries with regard to retribution and rehabilitation in punishment, but the key difference is just the incarceration rate. Put ten times as many people in jail in Germany and the character of German prisons would be bound to change. Add to that the profit motive of the American prison system and the result in practice, if not theory, is inevitable.
14
Progressives constantly ask why the US can't be like Germany, Denmark and Sweden. Do these countries' jails house Crips, Bloods, MS-13 and Skinhead gangs? No, our max security prisons are not full of non violent people. Let's take a look at prisons in Mexico and Brazil also; the US is a mix of all of these countries.
6
The aspect of the article that I found most important referred to the training and choosing of prison personnel. Here in the US, those who guard prisoners seem to be the dregs of society, people, whose level of sociopathy is equaled only by the worst maximum security prisoners. That, I believe, rather than the decor, is the reason for the extreme lethality of our prisons, especially for those prisoners who are least violent. Another major negative is that prisons have been privatized, which means that there are economic incentives to holding as many prisoners as possible for as long as possible, regardless of rational or socially beneficial reasons for the incarceration.
4
Recently a close family friend was incarcerated in a small jail facility for a dui offense. This person spent 5 days in, 2 days out and this pattern was repeated 3 times. Solitary confinement. (No they were not gang related or confrontational). After suffering two debilitating migrane headaches, they were not allowed to receive even a single aspirin. The guards were kind. Visitation was a half-hour preset time once a week. If the visitor could not make it at that time, no visitation. Showers were cold, set to the navel area. Mentally impaired inmates were housed in the same block. Brochures were handed out pre-incarceration regarding the risk of sexual abuse and who to report it to. Items could be purchased from the commissary at extremely high prices. Telephones did not work or were set so low that hearing each other was extremely difficult. No physical contact was allowed, only viewing thru a window. They reported the inability to sleep and the noise overwhelming their senses.
Why am I relaying this to you, you ask? Not for sympathy, as this young person did the crime. But for a reality check as to the conditions faced by inmates. Imagine if this person had been incarcerated for any length of time the potential for long-term mental impairment. What should have been offered was alcohol abuse education. Outdoor time. Most of all, safety from potential physical or sexual abuse. So it's not just prison, but jails that also need reforming.
Why am I relaying this to you, you ask? Not for sympathy, as this young person did the crime. But for a reality check as to the conditions faced by inmates. Imagine if this person had been incarcerated for any length of time the potential for long-term mental impairment. What should have been offered was alcohol abuse education. Outdoor time. Most of all, safety from potential physical or sexual abuse. So it's not just prison, but jails that also need reforming.
8
There are two memes propagated by some commenters here: that Europe is more homogenous than the U.S. and thus has fewer social problems; and that we should not take lessons from the country that invented concentration camps. Both are untrue.
Europe in general and Germany in particular are more culturally and ethnically heterogenous than the U.S. I just came back from Italy and saw more diversity on the streets of Venice than I ever saw in Utah or the Midwest. The same is true about the Scandinavian countries. This creates serious problems but clearly Europeans are managing these problems without full-scale torture factories that are American prisons.
Germany did not invent concentration camps. They were first used by Great Britain in the Boer War (1902). As a granddaughter of Holocaust survivors I have no personal stake in defending Germany's historical record but I was taught that truth and mercy are the highest values - both forgotten in the conservative rush to defend the indefensible.
Europe in general and Germany in particular are more culturally and ethnically heterogenous than the U.S. I just came back from Italy and saw more diversity on the streets of Venice than I ever saw in Utah or the Midwest. The same is true about the Scandinavian countries. This creates serious problems but clearly Europeans are managing these problems without full-scale torture factories that are American prisons.
Germany did not invent concentration camps. They were first used by Great Britain in the Boer War (1902). As a granddaughter of Holocaust survivors I have no personal stake in defending Germany's historical record but I was taught that truth and mercy are the highest values - both forgotten in the conservative rush to defend the indefensible.
15
The more interesting comments here are from those who have lived in Germany, particularly the observation that this writer and group apparently did not visit the max security German prisons, and so they were not observing fully. Further, one item not discussed is the probability that Germany is a more homogeneous country, i.e. that there are not great cultural, racial and ethnic tensions in the prison population or in the country, as here in the U.S. What is the German experience with prison and community gangs, compared with the U.S." Germany is also likely a much more regulated country, in general, and its population is comfortable with that increased conformity, security, etc. Sure not the US of A!
3
It would have been helpful to know if the German system is completely government-operated or if they have for-profit prisons like we do. And if they are run as businesses, what is the difference in length of terms, recidivism, living conditions/punishments, etc.
The American system of allowing "profit for prisoners" is scandalous.
Many American heroes have died in wars fought to protect America from outside tyranny. Who is willing to address the fact that we have ongoing tyranny from within in the form of badly run prisons whose conflict of interest is so blatantly obvious?
The American system of allowing "profit for prisoners" is scandalous.
Many American heroes have died in wars fought to protect America from outside tyranny. Who is willing to address the fact that we have ongoing tyranny from within in the form of badly run prisons whose conflict of interest is so blatantly obvious?
4
Wouldn't we be attempting to reconcile apples and bananas, if we might expect a similar system in the U. S? Ours seems to go back to the old English debtors prison. Place teenagers--who are really juvenile delinquents--in a population with hardened criminals.
The reason that they are often in prison, to begin with, is that they are constantly put-down, growing up in a ghetto, and with their only role models: being criminals, gangsters, drug dealers, pimps and prostitutes, and winos. What can you possibly hope for when you don't really know what you can even hope for?
And then, on their third or fourth time in prison, they are the hardened criminals, and they serve as the "mentors" (HA!) to the new recruits. It's a never-ending battle. But, it does sell well to the Conservative Base.
I don't see how our dysfunctional Congress could ever agree to establishing such "hotels". Perhaps the only hope might be the plan that President Obama and the Attorney General are taking to lower the sentencing on minor, non-violent crimes. That would, however, just be the first baby step, but in the right direction.
http://thetruthoncommonsense.com
The reason that they are often in prison, to begin with, is that they are constantly put-down, growing up in a ghetto, and with their only role models: being criminals, gangsters, drug dealers, pimps and prostitutes, and winos. What can you possibly hope for when you don't really know what you can even hope for?
And then, on their third or fourth time in prison, they are the hardened criminals, and they serve as the "mentors" (HA!) to the new recruits. It's a never-ending battle. But, it does sell well to the Conservative Base.
I don't see how our dysfunctional Congress could ever agree to establishing such "hotels". Perhaps the only hope might be the plan that President Obama and the Attorney General are taking to lower the sentencing on minor, non-violent crimes. That would, however, just be the first baby step, but in the right direction.
http://thetruthoncommonsense.com
1
This article only looks at prisoners that were sentenced for <3 years and did not commit violent crimes AND are not recidivists.
Germany has many kinds of prisons, why is the NYTimes not talking about that fact. Progressives and liberals and conservatives alike lose all credibility when the full story is not provided.
As far as the American justice system being based on slavery - where do you come up with that stuff? It is not based on slavery and it is NOT based on racism. The fact that there are a high percentage of blacks and Hispanics in prison does not mean they are innocent and were placed in prison because of their race or ethnicity. And let's not blame poverty either - the NYTimes seems to think if you are poor you should be able to rob, pillage, and do drugs because your life is lousy. NO.
Germany has many kinds of prisons, why is the NYTimes not talking about that fact. Progressives and liberals and conservatives alike lose all credibility when the full story is not provided.
As far as the American justice system being based on slavery - where do you come up with that stuff? It is not based on slavery and it is NOT based on racism. The fact that there are a high percentage of blacks and Hispanics in prison does not mean they are innocent and were placed in prison because of their race or ethnicity. And let's not blame poverty either - the NYTimes seems to think if you are poor you should be able to rob, pillage, and do drugs because your life is lousy. NO.
5
We are not known for learning or adopting even very important lessons, we incarcerate long and hard to safely purloign taxpayers funds for feeding the unemployable, our endless jobless incompetent military throw-aways, and we train them not. Its is too expensive, they just keep our own "scum" behind fences, and we insult dignity at every turn. The human qualities of Wardens are what we must look at to judge the quality ( or lack thereof) of our Nation (Never mind Lappin our non-anonimous alcoholic who ran the BOP). "No one truly knows a nation until one has been inside its jails. A nation should not be judged by how it treats its highest citizens, but its lowest ones.”
Who is to blame? First of all our puppet Judiciary who failed its "lifetime" duty to stand up for Quality.
― Nelson Mandela.
Who is to blame? First of all our puppet Judiciary who failed its "lifetime" duty to stand up for Quality.
― Nelson Mandela.
2
I lived in Germany for eight years. The streets are spotless. Highways efficient. They have been using environmental protection technology for decades that we are only now considering.
In those eight years, I never once saw a homeless person begging at a stop light.
In those eight years, I never once saw a homeless person begging at a stop light.
4
The American people just love to seek retribution from criminals; except, the white collar kind.
4
If you want to inject race, then I want to ask how many times were we told by black leaders, “The President is not the president of black America; he is the President of all America” or “The President is not a civil rights leader”? He must not be put in an untenable position; no special pleading. First he offered a version of Sorry, can’t help you; pull up your pants, and then it was Sorry, can’t help you; ancient and unfathomable racial injustice. Because of the barrage of Republican opposition, some of which did come from a bigoted place, no criticism, not even questioning, was credited. If you say, Black lives matter too, it’s overtaken by “people of color,” undifferentiated by the unique realities that blacks face.
1
Even if the authors exaggerate the utopian prison system they describe, the fact remains that Germany "learned from its own terrible legacy." That the lesson was imposed by the victors of WWII, does not diminish the importance of the "re-education" process nor the power this process had in re-forming the values of a nation which--long before the Holocaust--Clemenceau famously described as "an army in search of a country." The savage truths of our own slaveholding past are sadly missing from the history books. The institutionalized brutality and savage inhumanity that allowed slavery to persist remain inextricably woven into the fabric of our society, precisely because we have never been forced to confront them. How we systematically dehumanize a sizable portion of our population is only part of the lesson we have never learned.
3
Yes, of course, a study of the German penal system is very instructive. Did the authors have the opportunity to visit some of that country's historical correctional facilities?
1
One statistic missing from the article is the cost of Germany's correctional system. What is the price paid per inmate ?
In regard to changing the American system from one focused on rehabilitation, not retribution, that has been done cyclically in the United States. The "Auburn " system was once the standard methodology used for managing convicts in the 19th century. That was the silent system where inmates walked lockstep with one hand on the shoulder of the inmate in front of them. Prisons at that time were called Penitentiaries, signifying a need for penitent behavior. Now we refer to them as correctional facilities, signifying a need to correct behavior. As the winds change so does the philosophy on the treatment of criminal offenders.
A good read for an overview in the historical changes in our system is "From Newgate to Dannemora"
The greater question may be of a human condition that generates anti social and violent behavior towards one's fellow man,
In regard to changing the American system from one focused on rehabilitation, not retribution, that has been done cyclically in the United States. The "Auburn " system was once the standard methodology used for managing convicts in the 19th century. That was the silent system where inmates walked lockstep with one hand on the shoulder of the inmate in front of them. Prisons at that time were called Penitentiaries, signifying a need for penitent behavior. Now we refer to them as correctional facilities, signifying a need to correct behavior. As the winds change so does the philosophy on the treatment of criminal offenders.
A good read for an overview in the historical changes in our system is "From Newgate to Dannemora"
The greater question may be of a human condition that generates anti social and violent behavior towards one's fellow man,
11
Must read: NYTimes article on Norwegian prisons: "The Radical Humaneness of Norway's Halden Prison".
1
Of course we couldn't write an article about Germany without referencing the Holocaust.
Isn't it ironic that a country that needed a lesson in civility, morals, and decency by the United States (and other world powers) just a few generations ago is now demonstrating to the US how a modern civilized country should be run?
I sometimes fantasize that we need a national program that is somewhat like the birthright programs for American Jews. If only every American had to go to Europe for two weeks maybe we wouldn't be so arrogant and constantly purporting our supposed exceptionalism. Our own size and heft shields us from real critique.
I sometimes fantasize that we need a national program that is somewhat like the birthright programs for American Jews. If only every American had to go to Europe for two weeks maybe we wouldn't be so arrogant and constantly purporting our supposed exceptionalism. Our own size and heft shields us from real critique.
2
I'm in favor of prison reform. But talking about German prisons as a model for the U.S. is a farce as long as we continue to insist on a constitutional right for individuals to bear arms. So, we'd be encouraging people to go ahead and be judge, jury, and executioner on our streets and in our homes and public places AND accept the inevitable illegal interstate transport fueling criminal possession of firearms used in crime (since we refuse comprehensive federal registration of firearm possession and sales). BUT...if you're lucky enough to get away with all that, you get to enter a prison system run like a day-care facility? The American people will never accept it.
1
Many states are also making progress in raising their crime rates.
The US does need criminal justice reform desperately as way too many people are being caught up in long-term incarceration or being arrested over and over again for nonsense so they can never get out of paying fines and having the county jail being a revolving door for them.
But the US is much larger and much more diverse than Germany. It isn't "callous" to put violent people in high security prisons that are just really not nice places. Put a large percentage of the US prison population in this German prison the authors visited and most of them would be dead from killing each other within a week.
The US does need criminal justice reform desperately as way too many people are being caught up in long-term incarceration or being arrested over and over again for nonsense so they can never get out of paying fines and having the county jail being a revolving door for them.
But the US is much larger and much more diverse than Germany. It isn't "callous" to put violent people in high security prisons that are just really not nice places. Put a large percentage of the US prison population in this German prison the authors visited and most of them would be dead from killing each other within a week.
Our political parties are forced by their constituents, us, to be "tough on crime".
We asked for our the system as it exists in this country today. It is time that we ask ourselves, not our leaders, what "we" are going to do about this problem. If this article, and others like it, is not a wake up call, I don't know what is!
We asked for our the system as it exists in this country today. It is time that we ask ourselves, not our leaders, what "we" are going to do about this problem. If this article, and others like it, is not a wake up call, I don't know what is!
1
Punishment--historically and culturally--ranges from after school detention to fines to pillory to dismemberment to slow painful death.
It was/is usually public to deter others from committing the offense. "Offense" is necessary; otherwise "punishment" degenerates into barbaric vengeful hatred and harm. "Offense" presumes authority and its recognition; otherwise it degenerates into brute power--fines become theft; death becomes murder.
The more barbaric (less civilized, other-regarding, community minded) the punisher the less the punishment "fits the crime" and the more it fits his/her hatred.
Punishment must also fit "liability" which in turn fits causal responsibility; otherwise future generations get "punished" (harmed) for the sins of ancestors or the innocent get "punished" to induce fingering the guilty--Biblical and Nazi "justice". This is vicious vicarious liability.
Justified vicarious liability holds those responsible who did not "do" the wrong but nevertheless "let it happen" (see Jeremiah and Ezekiel critiquing Moses).
Thus neither punishing the guilty nor deterring the public is enough for "bringing a criminal to justice."
Punishment is supposed to "fix" the criminal--not just hurt, harm or deter. Thus civility aims at re-hab. Otherwise prison a waste of money--recidivism or worse--is inevitable. It pleases barbarians and hypocrites stuck in Lex Talionis; but caring for enemies is supposed to be ethically better than merely hating them.
It was/is usually public to deter others from committing the offense. "Offense" is necessary; otherwise "punishment" degenerates into barbaric vengeful hatred and harm. "Offense" presumes authority and its recognition; otherwise it degenerates into brute power--fines become theft; death becomes murder.
The more barbaric (less civilized, other-regarding, community minded) the punisher the less the punishment "fits the crime" and the more it fits his/her hatred.
Punishment must also fit "liability" which in turn fits causal responsibility; otherwise future generations get "punished" (harmed) for the sins of ancestors or the innocent get "punished" to induce fingering the guilty--Biblical and Nazi "justice". This is vicious vicarious liability.
Justified vicarious liability holds those responsible who did not "do" the wrong but nevertheless "let it happen" (see Jeremiah and Ezekiel critiquing Moses).
Thus neither punishing the guilty nor deterring the public is enough for "bringing a criminal to justice."
Punishment is supposed to "fix" the criminal--not just hurt, harm or deter. Thus civility aims at re-hab. Otherwise prison a waste of money--recidivism or worse--is inevitable. It pleases barbarians and hypocrites stuck in Lex Talionis; but caring for enemies is supposed to be ethically better than merely hating them.
2
Yet ANOTHER of these hopeful articles in the NY Times that America is finally coming to grips with its hideously draconian prison system. What a joke! The mere fact that the nation that gave us the Nazis is so much more enlightened about humanity and decency than is the United States should offer a clue to just how bad things are in this country.
The kind of enlightenment found in Germany will never happen here. America - Americans, and the people we elect to office - tenaciously cling to the idea of mass incarceration and inflicting as much pain and suffering as possible onto "criminals," even those whose crimes are so petty they should never have seen the inside of a jail cell to begin with.
Whatever minor changes our legislators might come up with - I seriously doubt there will be any - I guarantee you they will be trivial and meaningless. Law enforcement has become a junk yard dog in this country and it will never be reigned in. Too many people like it just the way it is.
The kind of enlightenment found in Germany will never happen here. America - Americans, and the people we elect to office - tenaciously cling to the idea of mass incarceration and inflicting as much pain and suffering as possible onto "criminals," even those whose crimes are so petty they should never have seen the inside of a jail cell to begin with.
Whatever minor changes our legislators might come up with - I seriously doubt there will be any - I guarantee you they will be trivial and meaningless. Law enforcement has become a junk yard dog in this country and it will never be reigned in. Too many people like it just the way it is.
6
End the War on Drugs. When will we ever recover from the sins of our forefathers? Slavery, Native American slaughter, locking up people for the non-crime: drugs. Are we nuts?
A prison is a prison, eh? One might expect to see significant differences between a minimum-security prison and a SuperMax in this country. This article falls in the "shaming of America through the eyes of our European superiors" meme common to the WP, without even bothering to equate the level of confinement.
1
I would hope that they would have learned something from the "old" method of having rails leading to ovens. But to be trite, we all need to learn 90% of what the the human condition is created and why plus how to fix it...not medicate it!
1
This is a very interesting and humane approach to the prison system. I am wondering about prisoners who are sociopaths and/or psychopaths and about prisoners who chronically re-enter the prison system. How is this issue addressed in the German prison system?
5
Did the authors visit Justizvollzugsanstalt Werl? I doubt it, because it's a maximum security facility for serious criminals, rather dark and grim looking from the outside. I am told that the prisoners there are in their cells most of the day, no windows that can see anything except sky, food passed in through a slot in the doorway, etc. I have walked by it on the outside, no noise, few vehicles coming in or out. A German attorney who has clients there is a friend of mine, and he assures me that it is not a pleasant place to be.
3
"I suspect that all the crimes committed by all the jailed criminals do not equal in total social damage that of the crimes committed against them".
Dr. Karl Menninger in The Crime of Punishment, 1966.
No one should be surprised by Messer's Turner and Travis findings, since they replicate Menninger's findings of nearly 50 years ago. Punishment should not be confused with justice. At best it is an unreliable, often counter-productive, attempt to deter crime.
Why would the US invest so heavily in a discredited "tough on crime/incarceration for all" policy? There are a number of possible explanations, but it is likely the NRA played a critical role in selling the policy to the broader public. They continue to do so today.
Dr. Karl Menninger in The Crime of Punishment, 1966.
No one should be surprised by Messer's Turner and Travis findings, since they replicate Menninger's findings of nearly 50 years ago. Punishment should not be confused with justice. At best it is an unreliable, often counter-productive, attempt to deter crime.
Why would the US invest so heavily in a discredited "tough on crime/incarceration for all" policy? There are a number of possible explanations, but it is likely the NRA played a critical role in selling the policy to the broader public. They continue to do so today.
5
You leave out one extremely important piece of information
You don't name the prisons you went to which you based this opinion piece on and you don't mention what type of prisons they were.
There are more than one type of prison in the USA.
Here is a link to information on prison in the USA
High security and low security.http://www.incarceration101.com/types-of-prisons.php
You can see how different they are.
The low security prisons are very similar to the ones you report on.
Because you don't tell us what type of prisons you went to we can not
know if we are comparing apples to oranges
If you went to low security prisons only then what you found wasn't any
better than what we have.
There is no way we would know as you conveniently do not tell us and therefore how can we accept your conclusions when we do not know the answer to this question .
Therefore I question the value of this opinion piece because of this..
You don't name the prisons you went to which you based this opinion piece on and you don't mention what type of prisons they were.
There are more than one type of prison in the USA.
Here is a link to information on prison in the USA
High security and low security.http://www.incarceration101.com/types-of-prisons.php
You can see how different they are.
The low security prisons are very similar to the ones you report on.
Because you don't tell us what type of prisons you went to we can not
know if we are comparing apples to oranges
If you went to low security prisons only then what you found wasn't any
better than what we have.
There is no way we would know as you conveniently do not tell us and therefore how can we accept your conclusions when we do not know the answer to this question .
Therefore I question the value of this opinion piece because of this..
17
To put some context in: In German companies it is assumed that new workers will require some training in the work they will do. Thus, there is an apprenticeship program. Siemens in the US brought the same practice from Germany here.
A second point is that the current German constitution was developed after WW II. Germany was almost unique among nations (where similar things have occurred) in realizing that what was done under Hitler was wrong and in working seriously to overcome that legacy.
Mr Slagle mentions the maximum security prisons in Germany vs the lower security prison described here. However, compare the prison in the article with prisons for similar level criminals in the US and you see the difference. Those in the US for low level drug offenders are not good and would be very bad in comparison with the prison described in the article.
A second point is that the current German constitution was developed after WW II. Germany was almost unique among nations (where similar things have occurred) in realizing that what was done under Hitler was wrong and in working seriously to overcome that legacy.
Mr Slagle mentions the maximum security prisons in Germany vs the lower security prison described here. However, compare the prison in the article with prisons for similar level criminals in the US and you see the difference. Those in the US for low level drug offenders are not good and would be very bad in comparison with the prison described in the article.
2
Prisons in America are run by big money. Stuffing 1500 inmates into a 100 inmate facility (or into a gym) makes the prison more profitable. No question about people having to serve time. But there is a big difference between serving time, and paying for the rest of your life.
3
Once upon a time, a French nobleman and professional judge by the name of Alexis de Tocqueville was sent by his government to study the US prison system; the most modern and humane system in the world.
Anyone wants to bet what the chances are that any country will send a study group like that to the US any time soon?
BTW, Art. I of the Basic Law does not say that human dignity "shall be inviolable", it says "Human dignity is inviolable." ("Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar.") There is a slight but important distinction between "shall" and the stronger "is".
Anyone wants to bet what the chances are that any country will send a study group like that to the US any time soon?
BTW, Art. I of the Basic Law does not say that human dignity "shall be inviolable", it says "Human dignity is inviolable." ("Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar.") There is a slight but important distinction between "shall" and the stronger "is".
3
The primary problem with American prisons is that way too many people are in prison who should not be there.
America has 25% of the world's prisoners with only 5% of the planet people. They are in prison due to being too poor to get effective legal counsel. They are in prison because they are black and brown. They are in prison for non-violent petty non-violent offenses including illegal drug use and possession. They are in prison because they are mentally ill. They are in prison due to severe mandatory minimum sentences along with conflating multiple minor repeat offenses.
Improving the quality of prison conditions is treating the symptoms of a chronic inherently defective immoral criminally unjust system. Like sentencing reform it is much too little and too late.
Although there are more German Americans than there any other kind of Americans, Germany is a poor model for America. American white supremacy was focused on enslaving and oppressing African Americans. Prison is the carefully carved out colored exception to the 13th Amendment's prohibition against slavery and involuntary servitude.
We should first decide which offenders and which offenses are worthy of prosecution seeking imprisonment. Then we must determine the duration and purpose or purposes of their incarceration.
America has 25% of the world's prisoners with only 5% of the planet people. They are in prison due to being too poor to get effective legal counsel. They are in prison because they are black and brown. They are in prison for non-violent petty non-violent offenses including illegal drug use and possession. They are in prison because they are mentally ill. They are in prison due to severe mandatory minimum sentences along with conflating multiple minor repeat offenses.
Improving the quality of prison conditions is treating the symptoms of a chronic inherently defective immoral criminally unjust system. Like sentencing reform it is much too little and too late.
Although there are more German Americans than there any other kind of Americans, Germany is a poor model for America. American white supremacy was focused on enslaving and oppressing African Americans. Prison is the carefully carved out colored exception to the 13th Amendment's prohibition against slavery and involuntary servitude.
We should first decide which offenders and which offenses are worthy of prosecution seeking imprisonment. Then we must determine the duration and purpose or purposes of their incarceration.
2
All comparisons between the United States and other nations are inevitably undercut by stipulating that we cannot be compared to ethnically homogeneous states. Ethnically homogeneous states have it easier; they don't have to deal with the problem of race. Whether it is school performance, social behaviors and mores or the penal system, the lingering poverty associated with race serves as a drag on all measures of American institutions. Bringing the U.S. into greater harmony with the rest of the world's advanced nations will always await the inception of social policies that end the still huge and tragic economic gap between white and black Americans.
4
Well, sorry, but recent statics show that the foreigner population in Germany is reaching about 20% now, that is, each fifth person living in Germany has a migration background. Germany today is ethnically much more diverse than many states of the US, in particular those with especially high prison populations. As far as the diversity argument explains that things are different here, it cannot be used as an all time excuse for everything.
End the drug wars and find or create a model for regulating drug use as has been done elsewhere in the world. Stop the engine that is driving mass incarceration. Release people locked up for drug issues that are no longer crimes. Rewrite draconian sentencing laws and release those whose harsh sentences resulted from such laws. End for-profit prisons--the very idea is an invitation to warehousing of human beings and an invitation to corruption in arresting and sentencing. Review how prison related money is spent. New York State spent millions hunting for the two recently escaped prisoners while comparable money would likely never have gone into rehabilitation programs.
13
[shrug] Honestly, if the author wants to shift the criminal justice systems PRIMARY purpose from retribution to rehabilitation, then really, prisons themselves are inappropriate. Rehabilitation does not really encompass blame or judgment. AA meetings may force someone to admit they are an alcoholic, but they don't engage in moral judgments about their members. Drug rehab clinics may encourage their patients' recognition of their addiction, but again, their job is not to judge those people. What of criminal rehabilitation? After all, it's criminal "justice," not criminal "rehabilitation." Rehabilitation is about mercy. Justice is about judgment. For practical reasons, I'm willing to get on board with the idea of focusing on rehabilitation and merciful treatment. I don't want newly released prisoners committing new crimes. That said, we must also recognize that mercy is the act of WITHOLDING justice from someone who deserves to be punished. It also necessarily involves passing moral judgment upon others. The only difference between justice and revenge is that our societies have an understanding that people will not seek their own justice, but trust the government to administer it on their behalf. Shifting to pure rehabilitation means the focus is not on justice for victims, but the welfare of the criminal. Conceptually, a true commitment to rehab requires a conscious decision that justice is not our country's primary concern. It's just a policy decision.
2
A question to ask - how does the country deal with it's mentally ill population ? Clearly, the system this group observed was devoid of any anti-social behavior that would be evident in a "patient" over a "prisoner". The US has a 'prison problem',partly due to a crisis in treatment of the disturbed, ill & mostly 'innocent' individual. Innocent, as they do not Will themselves incapable of functioning, but for whom there is no adequate care.
9
Germans born after WWII are particularly sensitive to any maligning of their model democracy. The "Deutscher Schuld", the German guilt over WWII, is something they refuse to share in, and rightly so.
While nationalistic, anti-immigrant sentiments still animate a small minority of Germans, compared to some other Euro zone countries, particularly their southern neighbor France, membership in reactionary right-wing parties remains low. And Nazi-hate speech is against the law.
So the German policy/emotional recovery from their fascist past by any measure has been impressive.
How then to explain why a country like our United States, whose Constitution also expressly protects the one against the many, the individual against the state or mob, yes, why does the US not reflect this exceptional virtue when it comes to prisons...to the simple fact of a prisoner and his cell?
Well, there was always the 90's; no punishment was enough. All "amenities", books, televisions, gyms, schools, were to be done away with, and "Prisoners" people said at parties...and I say this without exaggeration..."prisoners should just sit in their cells and think about what they did. Maybe they'd learn something."
Good grief.
It's very good to see reform showing up again.
But then I saw the Republican Debate on Fox!
And I was scared.
Why?
Because my German friend said he thought the main difference between our two countries was this: "In Germany, we've already had our right-wing disaster."
While nationalistic, anti-immigrant sentiments still animate a small minority of Germans, compared to some other Euro zone countries, particularly their southern neighbor France, membership in reactionary right-wing parties remains low. And Nazi-hate speech is against the law.
So the German policy/emotional recovery from their fascist past by any measure has been impressive.
How then to explain why a country like our United States, whose Constitution also expressly protects the one against the many, the individual against the state or mob, yes, why does the US not reflect this exceptional virtue when it comes to prisons...to the simple fact of a prisoner and his cell?
Well, there was always the 90's; no punishment was enough. All "amenities", books, televisions, gyms, schools, were to be done away with, and "Prisoners" people said at parties...and I say this without exaggeration..."prisoners should just sit in their cells and think about what they did. Maybe they'd learn something."
Good grief.
It's very good to see reform showing up again.
But then I saw the Republican Debate on Fox!
And I was scared.
Why?
Because my German friend said he thought the main difference between our two countries was this: "In Germany, we've already had our right-wing disaster."
16
People do forget that the US lucked out in the 1930s. We got FDR instead of the numerous right-wing demagogues who were, yes, very powerful and could have become very influential instead.
But having ridden that one lucky wave, does that mean we are now doomed to fall to right-wing demagogues because people haven't seen, in the US, just how bad that can be? Was McCarthy not bad enough?
But having ridden that one lucky wave, does that mean we are now doomed to fall to right-wing demagogues because people haven't seen, in the US, just how bad that can be? Was McCarthy not bad enough?
4
One supposes that "right-wing disaster" is one way of describing the Holocaust although there may be more precise terms for it. Which candidate in the debate was it who proposed to fill boxcars with women and children, and send them to extermination camps? Did I miss that part?
1
As a German ex-pat I would see the prison system as part of a larger difference between our countries.
Society in Germany is based on prevention, long-term views and an obligation to needs of the society above the individual.
The US is based on fix only what is wrong, short-term and cheap positive results, and the rights of the individual.
That difference results in a large social net in Germany, which in turn results in very few teenage pregnancies, unattended youths, free education, decent jobs and unemployment programs. It takes a lot more for a person to get pushed into the wall and towards wrong influences.
The cost: more taxes and more government (too much bureaucracy).
While the emphasis on the individual in the US originally created an atmosphere of opportunity and creativity, the absence of government control fails the weakest citizens, even blames them for their failure. It enabled an unbridled capitalism that looks at all social issues (from crime to climate change) through the lens of short-term profit.
The cost: Hopelessness among the poor and lower middle class - and high incarceration.
SUM: Despite the higher taxes, the cost to society is lower in Germany - financially and mostly psychologically.
Society in Germany is based on prevention, long-term views and an obligation to needs of the society above the individual.
The US is based on fix only what is wrong, short-term and cheap positive results, and the rights of the individual.
That difference results in a large social net in Germany, which in turn results in very few teenage pregnancies, unattended youths, free education, decent jobs and unemployment programs. It takes a lot more for a person to get pushed into the wall and towards wrong influences.
The cost: more taxes and more government (too much bureaucracy).
While the emphasis on the individual in the US originally created an atmosphere of opportunity and creativity, the absence of government control fails the weakest citizens, even blames them for their failure. It enabled an unbridled capitalism that looks at all social issues (from crime to climate change) through the lens of short-term profit.
The cost: Hopelessness among the poor and lower middle class - and high incarceration.
SUM: Despite the higher taxes, the cost to society is lower in Germany - financially and mostly psychologically.
18
As a criminal lawyer for 47 years I have visited prisons across this country and in Mexico. The atmosphere in all of them is a living hell for every inmate and sadism is just below the surface and sexual abuse by one prisoner on another is not only tolerated but encouraged by guards as a an extracurricular form of punishment. I could go on and on, but I won't because talking about this always makes me sick.
18
I doubt German prisons, much like education or healthcare, are for-profit.
9
'...If, after release, an individual were to end up back in prison, that would be seen as a reason for the prison staff members to ask what they should have done better...'
Yes, it is the staff members fault that a violent sociopath leaves prison and commits yet another crime against humanity.
Good we know whose fault it was!
'...America’s criminal justice system was constructed in slavery’s long shadow and is sustained today by the persistent forces of racism...'
Translation: All violent criminals who are black are only that way because of racism, which explains and justifies all pathology.
Got it.
Yes, it is the staff members fault that a violent sociopath leaves prison and commits yet another crime against humanity.
Good we know whose fault it was!
'...America’s criminal justice system was constructed in slavery’s long shadow and is sustained today by the persistent forces of racism...'
Translation: All violent criminals who are black are only that way because of racism, which explains and justifies all pathology.
Got it.
4
It's difficult to compare the two systems. Violent crime in Germany is very, very rare compared to the US, i.e. their prison populations are much smaller, much less violent, and easier to handle to begin with. I wish the authors had presented some comparative statistics in their article regarding this.
It is largely a homogeneous population with a set of common cultural and social beliefs (although this is starting to change), i.e. easier to provide one standard of educational and social benefits.
Also, firearms are tightly controlled, and society in general is highly regulated for the common good. Laws are followed or you will be fined/held to account, taxes collected etc. "Everyone" must carry their national ID card with them at all times (as is true in other European countries). Good luck trying to get out of a fine there or racking up a few thousand in fines and just going on with business.
Unfortunately, I doubt that the sense of American individualism that pervades US society would allow for these changes (gun control, respect for the law, ID card etc), although it would go a long way to improve the quality of life here.
It is largely a homogeneous population with a set of common cultural and social beliefs (although this is starting to change), i.e. easier to provide one standard of educational and social benefits.
Also, firearms are tightly controlled, and society in general is highly regulated for the common good. Laws are followed or you will be fined/held to account, taxes collected etc. "Everyone" must carry their national ID card with them at all times (as is true in other European countries). Good luck trying to get out of a fine there or racking up a few thousand in fines and just going on with business.
Unfortunately, I doubt that the sense of American individualism that pervades US society would allow for these changes (gun control, respect for the law, ID card etc), although it would go a long way to improve the quality of life here.
8
Our prison system is a manifestation of the anvil of race in America.
Then too the Germans have a lot to compensate for don't they? Given that nothing in the history of the world, nothing, nothing no matter how terrible, compares to the concentration camp system from 1933 to 1945.
This is a comparison of apples to rocks.
We won't agree to invest to rebuild our roads and bridges, invest in modern high speed rail or easily convert from fossil fuels to wind and solar power so how likely are we to invest in comparably humane prisons? It would cost tens and tens of billions of dollars to replace 19th and 20th Century U.S. prisons with the kind of penal facilities described in Germany even if our unforgiving people and politicians would allow it and they won't.
The objective of the American prison system isn't rehabilitation and correction. It is punishment and retribution by a vengeful society. If you have ever seen the inside of an American prison and see how one is run, then you know that.
In any case we have three quarters of one percent of our population locked up and they have less than one tenth of a percent in prison so there is no comparison to be made to being with.
Then too the Germans have a lot to compensate for don't they? Given that nothing in the history of the world, nothing, nothing no matter how terrible, compares to the concentration camp system from 1933 to 1945.
This is a comparison of apples to rocks.
We won't agree to invest to rebuild our roads and bridges, invest in modern high speed rail or easily convert from fossil fuels to wind and solar power so how likely are we to invest in comparably humane prisons? It would cost tens and tens of billions of dollars to replace 19th and 20th Century U.S. prisons with the kind of penal facilities described in Germany even if our unforgiving people and politicians would allow it and they won't.
The objective of the American prison system isn't rehabilitation and correction. It is punishment and retribution by a vengeful society. If you have ever seen the inside of an American prison and see how one is run, then you know that.
In any case we have three quarters of one percent of our population locked up and they have less than one tenth of a percent in prison so there is no comparison to be made to being with.
5
Mandatory sentences, war on drugs and tough on crime, as well as making our prisons de facto placement for the mentally ill has been a colossal failure. Even listening to some of the sentences I baffling, " life in prison without the possibility of parole plus 370 years". It doesn't even make sense.
Our criminal justice system is meant to penalize harshly, not rehabilitate. Rapists, child molesters and murderes are looked at the same as a non violent drug offender by many corrections officers.
Make the sentences shorter for non violent offenders. Most psychiatrists agree that child molesters, rapists and serial murderers are beyond rehabilitation, so by all means keep them in jail for life.
A lot of money was made off of privatizing prisons from the people who build them, the people who run them and the food services. We can't keep this pace being out t o punish, punish, punish. We need to focus on rehabilitation and give them the rights to use the tools they learned in prison and not release them 5 steps behind.
Our criminal justice system is meant to penalize harshly, not rehabilitate. Rapists, child molesters and murderes are looked at the same as a non violent drug offender by many corrections officers.
Make the sentences shorter for non violent offenders. Most psychiatrists agree that child molesters, rapists and serial murderers are beyond rehabilitation, so by all means keep them in jail for life.
A lot of money was made off of privatizing prisons from the people who build them, the people who run them and the food services. We can't keep this pace being out t o punish, punish, punish. We need to focus on rehabilitation and give them the rights to use the tools they learned in prison and not release them 5 steps behind.
2
The idea that we can turn American prisons generally into something resembling this German model is ridiculous. Clearly, we should not be locking up most nonviolent offenders. But turning prisons into summer camp for sociopaths is not going to work. We have human and societal ills that are far less prevalent in more homogenous advanced societies such as Germany and the Scandinavian countries. The authors may be fine scholars, but they are certainly far removed from the realities of the American street.
6
This is the umpteenth comment which brings up the homogeneity of Germany's population as a reason why German style prisons would never work in the US.
This is pretty much besides the point. People get thrown into prison for much the same offenses as in the US: murder, robbery, theft, burglary, and so on. How is this or the question of how these prisoners are treated connected to the ethnic composition of the population?
Of course, nobody gets into prison for minor offenses in Germany. There are no "three strikes", no petty drug offenses or the likes. Getting arrested for not using your signal while changing lines in traffic? Please, gimme a break. The US system is based on brutal retribution from head to toe. The German (or most other Northern European) justice system is based on rehabilitation. That is the main difference. BTW, the German prisons are no "Club Fed". There are regular reports on mistreatment and other scandals, unfortunately. But most of society cares about these reports, and there are attempts to deal with them.
This is pretty much besides the point. People get thrown into prison for much the same offenses as in the US: murder, robbery, theft, burglary, and so on. How is this or the question of how these prisoners are treated connected to the ethnic composition of the population?
Of course, nobody gets into prison for minor offenses in Germany. There are no "three strikes", no petty drug offenses or the likes. Getting arrested for not using your signal while changing lines in traffic? Please, gimme a break. The US system is based on brutal retribution from head to toe. The German (or most other Northern European) justice system is based on rehabilitation. That is the main difference. BTW, the German prisons are no "Club Fed". There are regular reports on mistreatment and other scandals, unfortunately. But most of society cares about these reports, and there are attempts to deal with them.
15
Is it any wonder why we have so many hardened criminals and mentally disturbed people in our society? We create them. Then we give them easy access to guns. Not a recipe for success. But some will cry socialism is not a good system.
2
I don't know that I'm prepared to take lessons on how to build humane prisons from the country that invented the death camp.
2
Glass houses and throwing stones. Centuries before the Holocaust, we wiped out the native Americans and decimated the black race. More recently, we killed hundreds of thousands, if not millions of innocent Iraqis in yet another senseless war.
Germany and the US are significantly different places. We are much more violent and chaotic than Germany. You can sense this when you are riding public transportation in a city. What's interesting , and sometimes frightening , about Germany is the strength of homogeny among the natives. This, perhaps, makes rehabilitation for criminals easier because they are released into a more coherent society. I also think that they treat drug offenders differently. It would be interesting to read about how the German prison works for the immigrant populations. My guess is that it is more difficult, especially if the prisoner doesn't speak the German language.A lot of what happens in culture is based on unspoken understandings. These understandings are double-edged at times. Gernany is simultaneously a wonderful and scary place, so is the United Staes, but for different reasons.
2
I can't help but think our pemal system is based on puritanic rules. We don't just punish a person once, we punish them for the rest of their life.
I can't help but think of the times when our country would brand an A on the forehead of a woman who might have been unfaithful once, marked for life for one error, exactly where we are today with the penal system.
I can't help but think of the times when our country would brand an A on the forehead of a woman who might have been unfaithful once, marked for life for one error, exactly where we are today with the penal system.
6
I would venture to say that the majority of German prison population did not have a serious drug problem before coming to prison. I would also venture to say that gang activity is minimal in German prisons. I would also add that I doubt there is a violence tendency on the part of the German prisoners. These elements lead to a prison population that is easier to manage and control.
I think that what we need to ask is why is there a drug, gang and violence problem in a segment of our population. Whatever lies therein might give us a glimpse into solving many problems.
I think that what we need to ask is why is there a drug, gang and violence problem in a segment of our population. Whatever lies therein might give us a glimpse into solving many problems.
5
What we have in the US is what you get when public policy is Old Testament based and applied with Christian fervor. Prison policy, economic policy, gun policy...you name it, the religious invisible hand is built in everywhere in our mentality and systems. Change will take generations. The first step would be to tax churches out of existence by making them pay their way instead of being coddled by a tax-forgiving state (the irony!).
6
This kind of change will probably never happen in the US. We are too entrenched in a Puritanical view of punishment. Many would say that prison should not be made so attractive. Too many in our society are unaccustomed to taking personal responsibility so the freedoms of the prisoners to decide how to behave and the self-reflection of the wardens would be anathema in this country.
17
"Many would say that prison should not be made so attractive."
I think the bigger problem is that in the U.S. we have succeeded in making life outside prison so unattractive.
I think the bigger problem is that in the U.S. we have succeeded in making life outside prison so unattractive.
16
It is difficult to imagine, except perhaps in minimum security prisons, the sort of excellent conditions described in Germany.
For one thing, our prisons are generating income, both for government run and private prisons, by using prison labor to cut manufacturing costs in various companies.
Private prisons, on the increase, receive a guaranteed amount of money per prisoner, no matter how much they actually spend on each prisoner.
As prisons are revenue sources, it is difficult to imagine them providing more costly, life enriching jail cell environments, and diminishing profits.
Then there is the violent culture that is America, with its open carry laws and penchant for murder and mayhem.
I would like to believe that if the U.S. treats its prisoners kindly, educates them, provides them some comforts, they will respond in kind, learning, becoming wiser, developing better family ties, etc. And indeed, some American prisoners would respond positively to such treatment.
But, if U.S. culture is violent, prison culture is more so. Europe, and Germany, do not have the same societal values as the U.S. European handgun deaths per year are a minute fraction of those in the U.S. Thievery, vandalism, assault are real, and frequently occuring in the U.S. Not so in Europe.
Europe's traditional culture, constitutions and laws designed to help those in need, low rate of violence, make it far more likely that a prisoner will his pans for cooking, rather than making a weapon.
For one thing, our prisons are generating income, both for government run and private prisons, by using prison labor to cut manufacturing costs in various companies.
Private prisons, on the increase, receive a guaranteed amount of money per prisoner, no matter how much they actually spend on each prisoner.
As prisons are revenue sources, it is difficult to imagine them providing more costly, life enriching jail cell environments, and diminishing profits.
Then there is the violent culture that is America, with its open carry laws and penchant for murder and mayhem.
I would like to believe that if the U.S. treats its prisoners kindly, educates them, provides them some comforts, they will respond in kind, learning, becoming wiser, developing better family ties, etc. And indeed, some American prisoners would respond positively to such treatment.
But, if U.S. culture is violent, prison culture is more so. Europe, and Germany, do not have the same societal values as the U.S. European handgun deaths per year are a minute fraction of those in the U.S. Thievery, vandalism, assault are real, and frequently occuring in the U.S. Not so in Europe.
Europe's traditional culture, constitutions and laws designed to help those in need, low rate of violence, make it far more likely that a prisoner will his pans for cooking, rather than making a weapon.
25
A 2010 study (updated in 2012) by the Civitas Institute lists a number of European countries, including France, as having higher assault, robbery, auto theft, and other crime rates than the U.S. While the U.S. murder rate is notably high, you seem to conflate availability of firearms with the fundamental tendency to violence of a people - while guns make it easier to harm people and more of them, it is more difficult to argue that they predispose a population to criminality per se.
I agree with others' points that American attitudes towards individualism and personal responsibility may tip the balance of any debate against the rights of prisoners. I even agree with those who claim that mass incarceration over the past few decades has helped to reduce crime - just as incarcerating people at random would likely reduce crime, since some of those incarcerated would have eventually gone on to commit a crime. However, your characterization of Americans as inherently more violent, and thus less responsive to positive reinforcement and less susceptible to rehabilitation, seems implausible. Generalizations as broad as yours require far more support than you have provided, and likely more than can be achieved in 1500 characters.
I agree with others' points that American attitudes towards individualism and personal responsibility may tip the balance of any debate against the rights of prisoners. I even agree with those who claim that mass incarceration over the past few decades has helped to reduce crime - just as incarcerating people at random would likely reduce crime, since some of those incarcerated would have eventually gone on to commit a crime. However, your characterization of Americans as inherently more violent, and thus less responsive to positive reinforcement and less susceptible to rehabilitation, seems implausible. Generalizations as broad as yours require far more support than you have provided, and likely more than can be achieved in 1500 characters.
The dark side of "American Exceptionalism."
4
Fascinating. What a wonderful illustration of the core issue. The critical element is the degree to which the prisoner is viewed as Other. The unspeakable horrors of the Holocaust were possible because Jews were Other. Fundamentally different and therefore not part of the Tribe, not even Human. It is perceived Otherness that allows animal experimentation, farm brutality and ultimately, meat consumption. It is also what allowed slavery, Japanese Internment, deployment of the A-Bomb, Abu Ghraib, waterboarding and the current horrors perpetrated in the name of Justice in our overflowing prisons.
The Germans seem to have learned and their Justice System seems to actually be focused on Correction. A wayward member of society may need correction but never loses membership in that society, never becomes Other. Here in the US, once behind bars, one has suffered, in the manner of slaves, social death. One has become Other and correction is thus not the goal. Therefore it is no surprise, that our prisoners are subject to conditions that would be outrageous were they dogs. Dogs, after all, are part of the family.
The Germans seem to have learned and their Justice System seems to actually be focused on Correction. A wayward member of society may need correction but never loses membership in that society, never becomes Other. Here in the US, once behind bars, one has suffered, in the manner of slaves, social death. One has become Other and correction is thus not the goal. Therefore it is no surprise, that our prisoners are subject to conditions that would be outrageous were they dogs. Dogs, after all, are part of the family.
38
"The unspeakable horrors of the Holocaust were possible because Jews were Other."
It may be an outrageous oversimplification to say this, but on the face of it, it looks like the Nazi Holocaust ended, and the Germans learned from it. The African American Holocaust has continued for centuries as an omnipresent part of our social landscape that is largely taken for granted. After reading Paul Krugman's thesis some weeks ago that racism explains America's lack of a European-style welfare system, I can't help seeing our prison system through the same lens. The main purpose of our "correctional" system may be less justice, less retribution, less rehabilitation and more suppression of "other" people.
It may be an outrageous oversimplification to say this, but on the face of it, it looks like the Nazi Holocaust ended, and the Germans learned from it. The African American Holocaust has continued for centuries as an omnipresent part of our social landscape that is largely taken for granted. After reading Paul Krugman's thesis some weeks ago that racism explains America's lack of a European-style welfare system, I can't help seeing our prison system through the same lens. The main purpose of our "correctional" system may be less justice, less retribution, less rehabilitation and more suppression of "other" people.
25
The article touched on it, but I don't believe it went far enough. Our criminal justice system was born out of slavery. Any black person waking down the street was suspected to be a slave, even if they could prove otherwise or had lived their whole life in that town. Move forward and blacks went from suspected slave to suspected truant, and could be thrown in jail or work farm (plantation). Move forward and blacks moved to suspected criminal, and could be thrown in prison (plantation). Germany has a criminal justice system because their economic system is setup for justice, America has a perpetuation of the system in which it was founded, only the justifications change not the desired result.
3
How do German prisons handle it's violent offenders?
2
I would be interested if you have any evidence to share as how you came to state: "America's criminal justice system was constructed in slavery's long shadow...". That's quite a sweeping statement and as a serious student of American history something I was completely unaware of. Please enlighten us.
2
After the slaves were freed the plantation owners still needed cheap labor. They could get prison inmates by renting them at practically no cost. This was even a better bargain for the plantation owners than slavery because they had no money invested in the workers. If a slave died there went your investment. If an inmate died, the prison just sent another one...no questions asked. The demand for cheap labor was so high that any black person walking down the street could be arrested for loitering. Even eight-year-old boys were arrested. There is an interesting book called Worse Than Slavery by Donald Oshinsky that explains how that system worked.
2
"America’s criminal justice system... is sustained today by the persistent forces of racism. The American prison-building binge was fueled by a political environment in which “tough on crime” was a winning campaign strategy."
Yes, America the barbaric... What happened to "beautiful"? Gone with the police state and capitalistic privatization. The more in prison, the better. The longer, the better. Human dignity in the US? Money, money, and money, revenge and retribution, are its only values.
Yes, America the barbaric... What happened to "beautiful"? Gone with the police state and capitalistic privatization. The more in prison, the better. The longer, the better. Human dignity in the US? Money, money, and money, revenge and retribution, are its only values.
3
Americans are too blindly self-righteous, and irrationally religious--in an eye-for-an-eye retributional sort of way for decent treatment of criminals ever to happen here. Germans are far more rational and concerned for outcomes, not punishment than here. And most would have nothing to do much with religion and its general stupidities and consequences.
4
If we are truly serious about recognizing human dignity, we must first abolish the death penalty.
9
For me, ppersonally, you're preaching to the choir. But my v A lues are allready in synch with the ones you're promoting - human xignit y is inviolable. However, there are significant xifferen es between Germany and the U.S. that you don't touch on. Germany has a more exu ated, homogenous, wealthy and healthy population. The differences are considerable. Public opinion is unlikely to welcome a revolution in quality of life improvements starting with the law-breaking demographic. Let's lead with the overdue social program progress that's deserved by all citizens - like universal health and dental care, free day care and higher ed., better maternity leave and a whole laundry list of public goods that today only a few enjoyable. One step at a time, we can vastly improve the underlying conditions that contribute to counter-cultural alternative like crime, apathy around active citizenship, over-work and loss of family time for many, xrug dependence and on and on. The body politic needs triage and a regimen of physical and psychological therapy. Let's do an intervention with a media campaign by scholars, public figures and progressive political leaders. Who doesn't like progress - mostly those in power who benefit at the expenxe of the rest of us!
4
This article is misleading. I don't believe the prisons that the authors visited typify prisons in Germany. I spent two weeks in a prison near Frankfurt, some years ago. There were no cells or bars of any sort in the prison. I don't believe there are cells in any German prisons. There are large "rooms" with showers that hold two or three inmates, plus an exercise yard and three decent meals daily. The rooms inevitably have a television set. Most importantly, inmates don't leave German prisons hating the authorities - to the contrary. Which does not address the grander question, Why do Americans commit crimes and why do we have the biggest prison population on earth, along with China? American prisons create enemies of society bent on revenge - we get back what we give. How dumb can we be?
54
I would imagine that German women's regular use of birth control results in fewer unwanted, neglected, and abused children.
Such children are handicapped from the get-go.
In the United States, we have an enormous population, both white and black, who have subnormal language skills and no ability to control their impulses. Developing language and learning self-discipline begin when babies are brought home from hospital.
Nursery school would help, of course, but by the age of four, many habits of (poor) behavior are already ingrained.
School becomes unbearable for such children because school is all about channeling creativity, developing patience and concentration, and communicating thoughts.
(Even doting, well-to-do parents who read baby books by the dozen can produce rude, ungenerous toddlers if they're too lazy to do the hard work of chastising and teaching them. These kids grow up to be thugs in other ways.)
And Germany isn't awash in guns. In Colorado, we have teenagers who, using military-grade weapons, murder their classmates in their classrooms. In Brooklyn, we have fourteen- and eighteen-year-olds shooting people seemingly randomly and also executing them at close range. One wonders if redemption is possible -- .
Such children are handicapped from the get-go.
In the United States, we have an enormous population, both white and black, who have subnormal language skills and no ability to control their impulses. Developing language and learning self-discipline begin when babies are brought home from hospital.
Nursery school would help, of course, but by the age of four, many habits of (poor) behavior are already ingrained.
School becomes unbearable for such children because school is all about channeling creativity, developing patience and concentration, and communicating thoughts.
(Even doting, well-to-do parents who read baby books by the dozen can produce rude, ungenerous toddlers if they're too lazy to do the hard work of chastising and teaching them. These kids grow up to be thugs in other ways.)
And Germany isn't awash in guns. In Colorado, we have teenagers who, using military-grade weapons, murder their classmates in their classrooms. In Brooklyn, we have fourteen- and eighteen-year-olds shooting people seemingly randomly and also executing them at close range. One wonders if redemption is possible -- .
10
Very interesting concept that could possibly work for criminals who qualify for a minimum security facility. There's no way in hell this utopian concept can work with a population of violent offenders that includes serial killers, rapists, mass murderers, and psychopaths. You would give these people access to the kitchen drawer full of utensils (think knives and cleavers) and then send them out for a night on the town? Seriously? I think you need to take a closer look at the crimes that were committed by the Germans held in these prisons. I think you will find that they have a very different and less violent profile than what you will find in most U.S. prisons.
9
And why would that be?
Every American should read this article.
I have an objection to only thing:
"The question to ask is whether we can learn something from a country that has learned from its own terrible legacy — the Holocaust . . . ."
Twenty million Russians died in World War II. I believe that this humanitarian destruction on a massive scale also played a major part in the German philosophy for prison administration and respect for human dignity. The first article of the German Constitution reads, “Human dignity shall be inviolable.”
Contrast this with the politicians of the United States for the last two decades: "When we told them stories of American politicians who closed a work-release or parole program after a single high-profile crime by a released inmate, they shook their heads in disbelief: Why would you close an otherwise effective program just because one client failed?"
I have an objection to only thing:
"The question to ask is whether we can learn something from a country that has learned from its own terrible legacy — the Holocaust . . . ."
Twenty million Russians died in World War II. I believe that this humanitarian destruction on a massive scale also played a major part in the German philosophy for prison administration and respect for human dignity. The first article of the German Constitution reads, “Human dignity shall be inviolable.”
Contrast this with the politicians of the United States for the last two decades: "When we told them stories of American politicians who closed a work-release or parole program after a single high-profile crime by a released inmate, they shook their heads in disbelief: Why would you close an otherwise effective program just because one client failed?"
3
From policing to prosecutions to prison, the US criminal justice system is horribly broken and a blight on our nation.
The US has the world’s highest per capita incarceration rate —more than five times that of any Western nation and higher than the worst police state.
The US also has the world’s largest prison population —with a quarter of totalitarian China’s population, the US has almost twice as many people in prison.
All told, the United States has less than 5% of the world’s population, yet it holds almost 25% of the world’s prisoners.
Total US criminal prosecutions annually amount to almost forty percent of all prosecutions worldwide, and at more than 94%, the US has one of the world’s highest conviction rates.
Ironically, nowhere on Earth is a person more likely to go to prison, and stay there longer, than in the Land of the Free.
Either the US is a nation of inveterate criminals or there's something drastically wrong with our criminal justice system.
NOTE: To understand the problems and solutions read “Criminal Law 2.0,” an essay in the Georgetown Law Journal by Hon. Alex Kozinski, former chief judge of the 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals.
http://georgetownlawjournal.org/files/2015/06/Kozinski_Preface.pdf
The US has the world’s highest per capita incarceration rate —more than five times that of any Western nation and higher than the worst police state.
The US also has the world’s largest prison population —with a quarter of totalitarian China’s population, the US has almost twice as many people in prison.
All told, the United States has less than 5% of the world’s population, yet it holds almost 25% of the world’s prisoners.
Total US criminal prosecutions annually amount to almost forty percent of all prosecutions worldwide, and at more than 94%, the US has one of the world’s highest conviction rates.
Ironically, nowhere on Earth is a person more likely to go to prison, and stay there longer, than in the Land of the Free.
Either the US is a nation of inveterate criminals or there's something drastically wrong with our criminal justice system.
NOTE: To understand the problems and solutions read “Criminal Law 2.0,” an essay in the Georgetown Law Journal by Hon. Alex Kozinski, former chief judge of the 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals.
http://georgetownlawjournal.org/files/2015/06/Kozinski_Preface.pdf
8
As long as prisons in the US are imbued with a profit motive, it is impossible for there to be reforms that focus on maintaining the dignity of all individuals involved in prisons. Moreover, as long as prisoners continue to be punished for their crimes upon release by being closed out of legitimate ways to earn a living and out of many government benefits, then recidivism is all but a given. In the perverse logic of prisons for profit, recidivism pays.
2
It should be noted that the ordinary German is only slightly more enlightened than the ordinary American on these matters. About a quarter of Germans support the death penalty. And a majority has misgivings about this 'luxurious' treatment of prisoners. People often call it 'vacation at public expense'. It's just that our political class is virtually united against populist demands for tougher punishment, and there german laws leave very little room for direct democracy so voters have no means of influencing policy directly. It is also unimaginable here to hold elections for judges, let alone the recall of a judge.
To be honest, the german system occasionally disturbs my personal sense of justice; retribution seems to me a just cause in itself in some abhorrent cases of violent crime. But the results speak for themselves, and as a rational person I am happy that we don't have the sick American system with the absurd numbers of prisoners and yet so much higher crime rates.
To be honest, the german system occasionally disturbs my personal sense of justice; retribution seems to me a just cause in itself in some abhorrent cases of violent crime. But the results speak for themselves, and as a rational person I am happy that we don't have the sick American system with the absurd numbers of prisoners and yet so much higher crime rates.
5
This article reads like a press release pushing a kinder, gentler approach to incarceration. (Which I guess isn't surprising since it is an Op-Ed and not an investigative piece.) Saying that the delegation visited "some prisons" without describing which ones, what level of security they operated under, and what types of crimes the inhabitants were charged with was a glaring, and I believe, intentional, omission. The American prison industry and the justice system itself needs its fair share of reform, but this article was akin to opining on the state of local jail conditions in America by watching "some episodes" of the Andy Griffith show that featured Otis, the recidivist town drunk.
5
If you can name one prison in the US that is even remotely similar to what you read here, you may have a point, but you can't. Just think about the expense of housing all those people and what that money could have been used for. Tax cuts? Yet, it is safer to walk the streets of ANY German city compared to the US. So, quit cheering our system. It just isn't that great and an embarrassment.
I don't understand how you got me "cheering" our system from my comment. I was critiquing the structure of this article, not our system or, for that matter, the German system. Does the system described here sound great for non-violent offenders who will be returned to society? It sure does, but as many other readers pointed out, it ignores the more serious criminals being held in German prisons without the amenities of the ones in the article. I wrote that our system needs a "fair share of reform". Where is the cheering in that?
Germany is a homogeneous society. We are not.
4
hart to say,
considering people, who are first generation immigrants,
germany got 18%
usa got 14 %.
But if the US is more diverse, it's because the US want's it to be like that. And diversity in the US is because of inherited unfairness and stiffled opportunities for people who are already on the bottom of the society or on the way down.
considering people, who are first generation immigrants,
germany got 18%
usa got 14 %.
But if the US is more diverse, it's because the US want's it to be like that. And diversity in the US is because of inherited unfairness and stiffled opportunities for people who are already on the bottom of the society or on the way down.
The US lost its conscience imprisoning the sick, the poor and the challenged. Is it any wonder that the American people embraced torture?
6
It is easy to see the benefit but when it come to the people of Greece the German Government is committing the crime of genocide by economic means. So I applaud how they are dealing with criminals but when it comes to Greece, Spain and other countries who have had their dignity stolen I find them hypocritical .
We do things far worse to our debtors.
To improve this situation we must look to the political and economic leaders to gain a new revised sense of intellect and understanding.
I fear most are not up to the task at hand.Anger plays a very large role in lack of positive change and understanding. The odds are against us.
I fear most are not up to the task at hand.Anger plays a very large role in lack of positive change and understanding. The odds are against us.
Why does it seem that liberals side with people that hurt other people but not the person that got hurt. A thug beats a man almost senseless after stealing and manhandling the owner of a store. Gets shot and they want the beat up person to do time. These people you are so concerned about are in jail for a reason. Once again someone is screaming racism but never anything about how the left holds the people back to buy a vote. They use my tax dollars for their racism and they are far more racist than any conservative.
2
Before a close family member ended up in prison, I was more of the view that people should be held responsible for their actions, and that a failure should be punished. People were in prison because they were criminals.
But then I saw how easy it is for someone (anyone) to slip into criminality; in many instances, it's not just one big event (e.g. going out and killing someone), but many seemingly innocuous choices that skew someone's sense of judgment, and sense of right and wrong. I also felt the effects (first hand) of the impact on the family of having someone going through the criminal justice system - none of us had any idea that this individual had been involved in such activity, and yet it affected all of us (and continues to - one year after the judge passed sentence, and who knows for how much longer). One family member (completely innocent - not involved in the activity at all) nearly lost their job over the whole affair.
I think that rehabilitation is better than punishment; as I said above, it can be very easy to slip into criminality and lose your sense of judgment, and it takes time and effort to get it back.
But then I saw how easy it is for someone (anyone) to slip into criminality; in many instances, it's not just one big event (e.g. going out and killing someone), but many seemingly innocuous choices that skew someone's sense of judgment, and sense of right and wrong. I also felt the effects (first hand) of the impact on the family of having someone going through the criminal justice system - none of us had any idea that this individual had been involved in such activity, and yet it affected all of us (and continues to - one year after the judge passed sentence, and who knows for how much longer). One family member (completely innocent - not involved in the activity at all) nearly lost their job over the whole affair.
I think that rehabilitation is better than punishment; as I said above, it can be very easy to slip into criminality and lose your sense of judgment, and it takes time and effort to get it back.
43
Rehabilitate them to do what exactly. Get a job when there are no jobs to be had. Listen we all have choices and we all make them. Some people make wrong ones gain and again. It is their fault and their's alone.
Before we even think about having the dream of these prisons in the U.S., we need first to de-privatize the industry. Until we do so, we might as well live in la la land.
5
Reducing the prison population by half will add over one million additional people to the unemployed. Our nation needs to focus on educating and preparing all of its citizens for productive participation in society. There is a real need for health care workers and those capable of rebuilding our country’s infrastructure. Providing people with meaningful work benefits all of us.
2
The differences are rooted in the make up of the prison populations. Ask German prisoners who they and are they will say Germans first. Ask our prisoners and they will say Muslim, Irish-American or African-American. Germans has a strong national unity that Americans no longer have. Therefore, they take care of their own; we warehouse our prisoners just like faceless cattle.
4
USA 0.68 vis a vis Germany 0.08 percentile of inmates to population. That represents a whopping 750% difference. Theres is NO DIGNITY in these figures.
10
The American sentencing laws need immediate review. In India also ,generally , the life imprisonment is commuted by state after 14 years of actual imprisonment. American sentencing guidelines are too harsh which have no consideration for future life of the convict
4
Unlike in America, they reflect their country’s commitment to human dignity
------------------------------------------------
We have seen Germany's commitment to human dignity in the past. Far too much indeed.
------------------------------------------------
We have seen Germany's commitment to human dignity in the past. Far too much indeed.
1
>
When the new God is the bottomline there isn't much room left for human dignity.
When the new God is the bottomline there isn't much room left for human dignity.
2
Nothing changes, until the Profit, is taking out of it.!
4
In a social democracy people are valued as the subjects of societal investments. In our capitalist society businesses are valued & people are a means to increase the value of the business. To understand the U.S. criminal justice system you must "follow the money".
8
The bitterness that welled up when I read this opinion piece surprised me, even after decades. My brief experience (fewer than 30 months) in the least restrictive federal Bureau of Prisons facilities still appalls. I did the crime (white collar) and served the time, as they say. I'm not a victim. Many of the men I met deserve, without question, to be imprisoned. The bitterness stems from the Bureau of Prisons absolute incompetence to be in charge of the warehouse it created for humans. From the guards through the wardens and through much more senior officials, the Bureau of Prisons is a backwater of rather dim-witted, ignorant, jackleg martinets who routinely use inmates to further their careers, such as they are. In retrospect, I can understand how Stanley Milgram got people to do things that they wouldn't do on their own. Hitler understood the phenomenon almost a century ago. The Bureau of Prisons puts people into positions of authority and, somehow, the attendant power saps their humanity in different degrees, depending on their intelligence, education, and experience. The less human become even less human, some more quickly than others, but the erosion is inevitable, the dry rot takes hold, particularly given the mental capacity, breadth of knowledge, and moral qualities of those who naturally gravitate toward a career of warehousing humans. I encountered many psychopaths in BoP facilities, not all of whom were inmates.
16
The explosion of the American "justice" system and increased prison population, and primary barrier to change, began with the War on (some) Drugs which has become the largest jobs program in American history.
Any effort to reduce the number of citizens involved with the American "justice" system will encounter fierce political opposition in jurisdictions where "justice" system operations have grown into revenue centers complete with prisons openly operating for profit.
Americans appear willing to pay $30,000 to $80,000 in taxes to incarcerate a prisoner whose only crime was often just making someone mad.
Any effort to reduce the number of citizens involved with the American "justice" system will encounter fierce political opposition in jurisdictions where "justice" system operations have grown into revenue centers complete with prisons openly operating for profit.
Americans appear willing to pay $30,000 to $80,000 in taxes to incarcerate a prisoner whose only crime was often just making someone mad.
4
Yes, as noted there are differences between German and U.S. incarceration practices. What was glaringly missing from the comparison is that in the U.S. we have never gassed and incinerated our prisoners.
5
Who have killed more prisoners in the last 70 years - for the record, the german score is zero.
And about incinerating - electric chair anyone ?
By the way, there is a law in germany, that prevents criminal offender to be sent to countries where they can face death penalty, this includes the US.
Now we are the one who save people from you to get killed.
And about incinerating - electric chair anyone ?
By the way, there is a law in germany, that prevents criminal offender to be sent to countries where they can face death penalty, this includes the US.
Now we are the one who save people from you to get killed.
30
I am curious. Are you claiming that Germans in the 21st century are guilty of genocide?
1
That's pretty cold, man. Most Germans today want nothing to do with that.
1
Germans, like many Europeans, realize and understand the necessity of societal responsibility and thus actions (laws, regulations, etc.) that benefit the whole, not the few. This is not to say those in the minority are marginalized, but it is to say that an individual's right does not necessarily trump the right of society, e.g., gun ownership.
This really is a comparison of apples to oranges.
This really is a comparison of apples to oranges.
8
We have 2 different views of criminals. One is to lock them up and throw away the key. Over the past four decades, we tried that, and it has not worked. Yes it has removed some people from the general population, but for all but the worst, they must eventually get out - and then we see where our prison policy fails. Even worse than mere incarceration, we deny these sad folks public services designed to help the poor. So when the get out, these folks can't get college money, can't live in public housing, can't, can't, can't.
Oh, we even deny them licenses for most licensed jobs.
So what happens? These folks leave prison, can't get any job but the most menial, don't have any skills anyway. Then they re-offend. And we blame them.
Sure, we need to be cautious about ex-offenders. But since many are just drug offenders, one wonder exactly what we are worried about. I work in the insurance industry and have been in various back office roles over 4 decades. None of these give employees direct access to cash - and yes we do have customer data. Well, we would never hire an ex offender anyway. So instead he ends up pumping gas where he gets to have your credit card in hand. (By the way, much theft of customer data comes from folks working in gas station and restaurants).
But, since it is election season, we will hear far more (on the republican side) about being tough, than about being sensible.
Oh, we even deny them licenses for most licensed jobs.
So what happens? These folks leave prison, can't get any job but the most menial, don't have any skills anyway. Then they re-offend. And we blame them.
Sure, we need to be cautious about ex-offenders. But since many are just drug offenders, one wonder exactly what we are worried about. I work in the insurance industry and have been in various back office roles over 4 decades. None of these give employees direct access to cash - and yes we do have customer data. Well, we would never hire an ex offender anyway. So instead he ends up pumping gas where he gets to have your credit card in hand. (By the way, much theft of customer data comes from folks working in gas station and restaurants).
But, since it is election season, we will hear far more (on the republican side) about being tough, than about being sensible.
18
Dostoyevski (among many) pointed out that you can judge a culture by how well it treats its prisoners.
44
Ummm....People don't shoot and kill other people with guns much in Germany....
18
I wonder why?
they also don't nearly as many guns as we do, nor is at easy to buy them...you're point being?
The cultures are SO different. The conditions experienced by so many children in this country would be unimaginable in Germany. The raw material going into making a criminal here and there means we're talking about two very different sets of challenges for a correctional system. Ours is the far more demanding.
60
Yes, Mr. Levin is absolutely right. It would be naive to think otherwise. Although Germany certainly has a far better social conscience (for obvious historical reasons) than most countries, it is only beginning to face the multitudinous challenges which the U.S. has faced and,yes, itself created. The efforts are laudable and necessary, but the socio- economic point of departure for both prison inmates and their guards is what makes the difference and what will make the difference in the future. In other words, starting with childcare, and educational and economic mobility would result in fewer "criminals". Oh yes, before I forget: putting a kid in jail for minor drug possession is not only hyprocritical but also downright in-American.
11
True - but the real question is, are these differences good or bad? And if they are bad (high crime and incarceration rates here suggest they are mostly bad), how can we improve? I think that many of the cultural differences are caused by the prison systems themselves. After all, destroying millions of lives by prolonged incarceration inevitably has large repercussions outside the prison walls. I suspect the german system has negative feedback (humane incarceration reduces crime) while the american system has positive feedback (prison destabilizes society and increases crime).
2
But the values are also different. We seek to destroy and they seek to build human dignity. There is something deeply cruel about the way America treat people. I have been too many poor countries. America is unique is its ability to destroy a person permanently. And it is not funny.
2
A society imbued with a deep sense of individualism, as ours is, offers each person a substantial degree of freedom from government control. The flip side of that liberty, however, is a tendency to hold the individual completely responsible for his behavior and his fate. Crime is defined as a personal failing, for which the individual has earned stiff punishment, since society bears no responsibility for her behavior. I suspect the Germans view crime in the broader context of society's shortcomings, so the perpetrator does not bear the full weight of the law. This difference in the perception of individual responsibility, combined with the persistence of racism here, may account for much of the contrast in the criminal justice systems of the two countries.
148
A point that this comment misses is that when a society values liberty the denial of that liberty is itself the primary punishment for crime. In our system we go well beyond denial of liberty. We make the prison experience unnecessarily harsh, in effect piling punishment on top of punishment.
We fail to provide adequate psychological service even when its obvious that the initial crime was driven in part by the individuals medical condition. The list of deprivations is long and the result is a prison population that is very poorly prepared for reintegration into society.
This is why our system is often called the prison industrial complex. We produce recidivism and then spend enormous sums simply producing more recidivism. If Americans can't be convinced to change the system on humanitarian grounds they should at least be drawn to the simple fact that other nations do a better job at considerably lower costs.
We fail to provide adequate psychological service even when its obvious that the initial crime was driven in part by the individuals medical condition. The list of deprivations is long and the result is a prison population that is very poorly prepared for reintegration into society.
This is why our system is often called the prison industrial complex. We produce recidivism and then spend enormous sums simply producing more recidivism. If Americans can't be convinced to change the system on humanitarian grounds they should at least be drawn to the simple fact that other nations do a better job at considerably lower costs.
37
Americans tend to conflate "responsibility" and accountability. Our system holds offenders responsible (i.e. deserving of punishment) but rarely accountable. Accountability requires restoration of relationships and making good the harm done, to the extent possible. The sad truth is, the American criminal justice system actually discourages accountability. Offenders are advised to begin the process by denying responsibility, and are even typically forbidden to talk to the victim with whom they might make amends. Retribution, while seeming to hold offenders "responsible" for their acts, actually precludes real accountability.
2
The vast number of prisoners in the US are not free from government control. The fact that many of them are in prison for infringing petty drug laws, such as marijuana possession, doesn't sound like liberty.
The attacks by a whole political party on Planned Parenthood don't feel like personal freedom. The constant fear of gun violence doesn't feel like freedom.
Just because you might feel a "deep sense of individualism" doesn't mean that you live in a free society.
"Holding he individual completely responsible for his fate" is a childish belief. One is rich because one has earned it; one is poor because...they deserve it. Doesn't matter where you we're born, whether your parents are rich or poor. And it doesn't matter that in the real world the US is at the bottom of countries in which upward socioeconomic mobility is possible.
(I'm not sour grapes: I've done fine. But I'm not under the insane illusion that there wasn't a huge amount of good luck involved in this.)
The attacks by a whole political party on Planned Parenthood don't feel like personal freedom. The constant fear of gun violence doesn't feel like freedom.
Just because you might feel a "deep sense of individualism" doesn't mean that you live in a free society.
"Holding he individual completely responsible for his fate" is a childish belief. One is rich because one has earned it; one is poor because...they deserve it. Doesn't matter where you we're born, whether your parents are rich or poor. And it doesn't matter that in the real world the US is at the bottom of countries in which upward socioeconomic mobility is possible.
(I'm not sour grapes: I've done fine. But I'm not under the insane illusion that there wasn't a huge amount of good luck involved in this.)
3
I've lived on and off in Germany for about 12 of the last 28 years and worked for many years as a journalist before becoming a mitigation specialist for death penalty cases, based in Portland, OR.
Germany is light years ahead of the U.S. in part because its system is based on rehabilitation (anchored in the country's Grundgesetz or Constitution) and not on retribution, as the U.S. system is. This covers not only the adult arena but is also seen in juvenile court, where children are never adjudicated as adults and the age of adjudication is 14. In some cases young adults in their early 20s are adjudicated in juvenile court. And of course there is no death penalty.
The way the U.S. will reform is based, like many other things in the United States, on money. When policymakers understand that it is more cost effective to turn an inmate into a taxpaying citizen and realize that state and federal governments can save beaucoup bucks by emphasizing rehabilitation rather than retribution, things will change.
I worked at the public defender's office in Portland and once gave a short talk about the German system. Here's how one of the defense lawyers there summed up the US-German differences:
Yes, this is all very depressing. To think that the country that gave us Nazism has a more humane treatment of the least favored in society than the country that “liberated” the world from it, is sad indeed.
Germany is light years ahead of the U.S. in part because its system is based on rehabilitation (anchored in the country's Grundgesetz or Constitution) and not on retribution, as the U.S. system is. This covers not only the adult arena but is also seen in juvenile court, where children are never adjudicated as adults and the age of adjudication is 14. In some cases young adults in their early 20s are adjudicated in juvenile court. And of course there is no death penalty.
The way the U.S. will reform is based, like many other things in the United States, on money. When policymakers understand that it is more cost effective to turn an inmate into a taxpaying citizen and realize that state and federal governments can save beaucoup bucks by emphasizing rehabilitation rather than retribution, things will change.
I worked at the public defender's office in Portland and once gave a short talk about the German system. Here's how one of the defense lawyers there summed up the US-German differences:
Yes, this is all very depressing. To think that the country that gave us Nazism has a more humane treatment of the least favored in society than the country that “liberated” the world from it, is sad indeed.
282
Speaking of money, where do you see the role of for-profit, private prisons in this?
19
In Germany do they appoint judges and prosecutors or do they elect them? That may make a big difference in approach. See NYT editorial, Lessons From European Prisons, 2013. They don't have our destructive war on drugs to the same extent, or the various permutations of our legacy of racial apartheid. And there isn't as wide a gap in economic classes or number in poverty.
I am beginning to think that our Constitution and Bill of Rights are actually better realized in certain foreign countries than in the US, and some of these countries don't even have a Constitution.
I am beginning to think that our Constitution and Bill of Rights are actually better realized in certain foreign countries than in the US, and some of these countries don't even have a Constitution.
1
Agreed that changes in the American system will be based on money, but not in the way you describe. Politicians and voters usually favor savings in the present time over the long term view. Rehabilitation programs are expensive to implement. If we cared about future savings, our education system would be a lot better too.
4
The left's growing embrace of criminals and treating criminals as "victims" will result in electoral disaster for the Democratic Party. Those of us who work every day and don't hurt others look on in disbelief at those who focus on the "plight" of convicted criminals, rather than the plight of their victims. Further, for all of the left's bashing of "mass incarceration" do the people bemoaning the tough on crime stance the electorate has fully embraced believe that the drastic reduction in crime since the late '80s and early '90s--when mass incarceration began--is merely a coincidence? Crime dropped because the criminals were and are in prison, where they belong.
44
And yet the United States is the country with high rates of reincarceration. We throw ex-convicts out into the real world with no job prospects (even if they have an education, which is not something many convicts even get the chance for), no money, no anything. Even those who have committed small, nonviolent crimes are given no chance at retribution once the jury has made a decision. Yes, we focus on the plights of ex-cons, for they have lives too. They have families. They are just as human as the rest of us. You do not know their story, and you cannot judge them with a blanket statement.
The focus on prison reform is not just a sentiment shared by the Democrats; it is one shared by the Republicans as well. It will do more good for the people of the United States than many other things.
The focus on prison reform is not just a sentiment shared by the Democrats; it is one shared by the Republicans as well. It will do more good for the people of the United States than many other things.
37
There are numbers telling the lowering of crime had more to do with abortion becoming legal than mass incarceration.
13
Has nobody ever discussed the causation/correlation dynamic with you?
The electorate has not "fully embraced" mass incarceration -- as is becoming more and more clear.
The electorate has not "fully embraced" mass incarceration -- as is becoming more and more clear.
9
The authors did not see the maximum security prisons (Langstrafenanstalts). They were given access to the less serious criminals are housed and "trained" fully expecting their return to society. In the US we do not have the same system nor the same societal structure. Had they visited Stammheim Prison they might of seen a much closer semblance of US prisons. The real hard core criminals from the multiple of organized crime are housed in these prisons. The murderers (yes Germany has murders), drug dealers, and multiple convictions. I agreed the US needs to take a long hard look at its system but this article makes it sound like the Germans treat all criminals this way. That is not the case. I lived near one of the maximum security prisons when stationed in Germany and many of my neighbors were guards. They had a much different story on their "guests" and certainly on their living conditions. One story I enjoyed hearing was how the Germans enforced their obsession with cleanliness in their prisons, they made the inmates clean them on a daily basis and if they did not comply they were subject to correctional actions that included solitary confinement. This story has a lot more to it, just left out to make it appear that only the US has repeat offenders and maximum security facilities with real criminals in them.
151
And this scenario you describe - of segregating truly violent criminals - is perfectly logical. The difference between their approach and ours is that in the U.S. we have made it a practice to include nonviolent offenders in a system that, for practical purposes, almost guarantees long periods of incarceration and recidivism, exacting a terrible economic and human cost. Unlike ex-prisoners in Germany who come out with job training and have high rates of employment (virtually 100% in some trades like culinary arts), U.S. ex-convicts are virtually unemployable, often unable to vote and left with few options or incentive if they survive a life outside of prison. A focus on rehabilitation is nonexistent, and thus, we all pay the price. Who can really argue that we have a system that works?
19
But the mere fact that Germany has special prisons for the worst criminals is rather telling.
1
Some good points. Did you miss the part about 63 thousand prisoners in Germany & 2.2 million in the US.
1
I've seen stories on Scandinavian prisons. This story is very similar. This isn't going to happen in the US. We seem to love punishment. We have a whole system of outstanding warrants whose sole purpose is to trip up the poor. It isn't only minority poor. My wife had an acquaintance who was drunk in a park. He was arrested and eventually sent to prison based on an old warrant that should have expired.
I am sure this isn't the only example. We need to make sure the punishment fits the crime. Setting heavy fines on the poor only creates more criminals, but that seems to be what we want.
I am sure this isn't the only example. We need to make sure the punishment fits the crime. Setting heavy fines on the poor only creates more criminals, but that seems to be what we want.
76
Not long ago the NY Times published "The Radical Humaneness of Norway's Halden Prison" ( http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/magazine/the-radical-humaneness-of-nor... ). Scandianavian countries are EU "role models" in many respects, and their experiences are closely watched by the other countries. Denmark is doing its own, very impressive Energiewende.
What I find most encouraging in this article is that this US study group took a closer look at another country's system. Exchanging ideas can only be positive.
What I find most encouraging in this article is that this US study group took a closer look at another country's system. Exchanging ideas can only be positive.
This article looks awfully familiar. Over 30 years ago, former senator Jim Webb wrote an article for Parade magazine on the Japanese prison system (http://www.jameswebb.com/articles/economic-fairness-social-justice/what-.... Although the Japanese system is much harsher in terms of daily prison life, there is the same care taken in avoiding recidivism. The goal of both prison systems is not to punish, but to rehabilitate the prisoners and reintegrate them back into society. Sadly, after a generation, very little has been done to improve the prison situation in the US and despite Obama's initiative, I am not hopeful. The German and Japanese value of the collective, the concern about the society as a whole, is missing among Americans. This cultural difference will likely result in the status quo being maintained.
57
When I read this article, I get the distinct impression that the delegation might just as well have gone to Denmark. We follow the same principles of punishment and incarceration. It seems to me that the great divide is between (western) Europe and America, so changing the American way is probably extremely difficult, because the American way of punishing people is bound up with an almost Biblical idea of retribution and revenge. Which is also why the death penalty is still not only in force in the U.S., but apparently supported by the majority of Americans. Get rid of the death penalty and the country will be closer to a change of attitude when it comes to a reform of the prisons. In Europe the death penalty has been abolished for many years.
53
I read that if given a referendum on the death penalty many Europeans would vote for it. As for our prisons, there are all different types here, including minimum security which is much different from the maXimum types.
Think about it: what treatment in the US would count as "cruel and unusual"? Not much, I'm sad to admit; maybe nothing.
15
A badly needed op ed contrasting positive examples abroad, to highlight what’s needed now as prison reform is in the news, with both parties agreeing on the need.
Sure, any country’s citizens want their officials to be ‘tough on crime’ within reasonable limits for public safety. But our norms are out of step with the rest of the civilized world. It’s related to our election systems. Using exaggerated fear of crime has long been a common election tactic.
Our election of judges who run campaigns based on how many criminals they put away and excessive sentencing has removed objectivity and justice. In other countries judges are appointed. We need to discuss this. And they use public funding for elections of all lawmakers, with limits on private donations, instead of letting powerful gun lobbies push the so called ‘freedom’ of guns for all. Here, even if candidates wants to avoid the gun lobby, their opponent can outspend them, so the playing field is badly unbalanced.
Keeping released felons from voting is a right wing tactic to keep political control, removing rights of mostly Democratic voters---minorities, the poor and elderly. Another arrow in the right wing’s quiver to maintain power.
See editorial Lessons From European Prisons, Nov 7, 2013
And
And, the article—‘U.S. Prison Population Dwarfs That Of Other Nations’, Adam Liptak, April 23, 2008.
Sure, any country’s citizens want their officials to be ‘tough on crime’ within reasonable limits for public safety. But our norms are out of step with the rest of the civilized world. It’s related to our election systems. Using exaggerated fear of crime has long been a common election tactic.
Our election of judges who run campaigns based on how many criminals they put away and excessive sentencing has removed objectivity and justice. In other countries judges are appointed. We need to discuss this. And they use public funding for elections of all lawmakers, with limits on private donations, instead of letting powerful gun lobbies push the so called ‘freedom’ of guns for all. Here, even if candidates wants to avoid the gun lobby, their opponent can outspend them, so the playing field is badly unbalanced.
Keeping released felons from voting is a right wing tactic to keep political control, removing rights of mostly Democratic voters---minorities, the poor and elderly. Another arrow in the right wing’s quiver to maintain power.
See editorial Lessons From European Prisons, Nov 7, 2013
And
And, the article—‘U.S. Prison Population Dwarfs That Of Other Nations’, Adam Liptak, April 23, 2008.
15
"with an impressive commitment to promoting dignity, especially for those in prison". Especially? I would think that "even for those etc." would be more appropriate.
I think that the American attitude is still based to a large extent on its Puritan/Protestant roots, the work ethic etc. It has little pity for those who cannot abide and punishment is stressed more than rehabilitation.
Germany had the same type of ideology, including re prison and punishment, taken to extremes, Holocaust and communist East Germany, but they have changed direction.
I would guess that in spite of the German constitution, their change is the result of an understanding that bad prisons are "bad business" and that it might be more efficient to invest in rehabilitation. They just switched around the direction of the Protestant work ethic.
I think that the American attitude is still based to a large extent on its Puritan/Protestant roots, the work ethic etc. It has little pity for those who cannot abide and punishment is stressed more than rehabilitation.
Germany had the same type of ideology, including re prison and punishment, taken to extremes, Holocaust and communist East Germany, but they have changed direction.
I would guess that in spite of the German constitution, their change is the result of an understanding that bad prisons are "bad business" and that it might be more efficient to invest in rehabilitation. They just switched around the direction of the Protestant work ethic.
10
Blame Puritanism? Protestant roots? Ever hear of Finland,Sweden, Norway,Denmark , all historically Protestant nations? All have humane prison systems. BTW, some historians assert, with great validity, that US Calvinist roots were instrumental for development of American Liberties. Just saying.....
1
This has to be said: how many of the German prisoners were gang members and how many had shot someone?
19
Very few gunshot perpetrators or victims in Germany since they have extremely restrictive gun control. The Americans, by the way, as part of the post-war allied activity, made certain that the new Republic of West Germany, now the Republic of Germany, had a constitution almost mirroring that of the US in terms of individual rights. The difference was that the allies saw no reason to include a "right to bear arms" in the German constitution. Understandable under the circumstances and now a blessing indeed.
4
Germany has strict gun control which the US does not.
Admirable.
Germany doesn't have our gun glorification culture, nor our 24 / 7 diet of violent 'entertainment' which feed criminality and raise public horror and support for 'get tough' measures.
We are sure in a mess of our own making.
How does our society 'stand down'? Check your guns at the door? Gang truce instead of gang fights?
No change so long as politicians pander to fear rather than leading and taking some political risks.
And then there are public / prison guard union sponsored initiatives like California's three strikes - up to life for a third offense - if even non-violent. Senseless and huge waste of inmate lives and tax money.
Our rich country sure knows how to waste opportunities.
Let's wake up!
Germany doesn't have our gun glorification culture, nor our 24 / 7 diet of violent 'entertainment' which feed criminality and raise public horror and support for 'get tough' measures.
We are sure in a mess of our own making.
How does our society 'stand down'? Check your guns at the door? Gang truce instead of gang fights?
No change so long as politicians pander to fear rather than leading and taking some political risks.
And then there are public / prison guard union sponsored initiatives like California's three strikes - up to life for a third offense - if even non-violent. Senseless and huge waste of inmate lives and tax money.
Our rich country sure knows how to waste opportunities.
Let's wake up!
28
Comparing U. S. prisons with those in Germany isn’t going to convince many Americans who oppose reform of the criminal justice system. What is described by the visitors will seem more like reward than punishment to many of those against changing our prisons.
The comparison should be to the South African prisons during apartheid and the “company we keep” might jolt us into embarrassment. Today the United States imprisons SEVEN times as many black males—PER CAPITA—than did South African during apartheid!!
The comparison should be to the South African prisons during apartheid and the “company we keep” might jolt us into embarrassment. Today the United States imprisons SEVEN times as many black males—PER CAPITA—than did South African during apartheid!!
39
I don’t think I’ve actually considered something as naive as this op-ed since Jane Fonda, straddling a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun in 1972.
Before one waxes entranced by the state of German prisons relative to our own, one first should compare the average IQs, levels of education attained, economic class from which the two cohorts of prisoners sprang, and the nature of the crimes they committed.
We seem to be depopulating our most economically disadvantaged communities across America, filling our prisons in part with drug offenders but also with the extremely violent that such environments grow; and a very large percentage of our prisoners are mentally ill, as well. The most we can ask of prison guards is not to abuse them as they risk their lives seeking to control such a desperate and violent population of prisoners.
If we were to focus on this matter for a generation, we might JUST get to the point where we had developed sufficient alternative programs to deal with non-violent drug offenders and other offenders outside of a prison context; but until we moderate the poverty in our poorest communities and dramatically improve the education available there, the notion of petunias, private phones and cons dicing carrots with chefs knives is just too alien to feature.
Before one waxes entranced by the state of German prisons relative to our own, one first should compare the average IQs, levels of education attained, economic class from which the two cohorts of prisoners sprang, and the nature of the crimes they committed.
We seem to be depopulating our most economically disadvantaged communities across America, filling our prisons in part with drug offenders but also with the extremely violent that such environments grow; and a very large percentage of our prisoners are mentally ill, as well. The most we can ask of prison guards is not to abuse them as they risk their lives seeking to control such a desperate and violent population of prisoners.
If we were to focus on this matter for a generation, we might JUST get to the point where we had developed sufficient alternative programs to deal with non-violent drug offenders and other offenders outside of a prison context; but until we moderate the poverty in our poorest communities and dramatically improve the education available there, the notion of petunias, private phones and cons dicing carrots with chefs knives is just too alien to feature.
25
You just illuminated more faults in our society. More proof that we are not a great nation but only think we are. That type of thinking is also why we are so quick to wage war.
2
America needs more German prisoners.
11
This is a complete misdetermination.
It is at least how we (i am a german) handle our inmates, it's about everything else.
It's about how cops behave (look just at the bullets statistics, in whole germany we use less gun shoots than the NYPD in one day), it's about providing opportunities, especially for young struggling people, it's about society, it's about guns, it's about free education, it's about a guarantee of health care, it's about trials with a professional jury service (not just some high emotional average citizen).
The US have decided to be a savage society, that what many european at least perceive. Roger Cohen had yesterday a quite good column about that. This attitude is reflected in your incarceration. But prisons are just a symptom, not a cause. You just can't turn one screw and get something totally different.
I suggest, unless you would like to overhaul your whole society, you rather stuck with what you got. The german imprisonment system will not work for you.
It is at least how we (i am a german) handle our inmates, it's about everything else.
It's about how cops behave (look just at the bullets statistics, in whole germany we use less gun shoots than the NYPD in one day), it's about providing opportunities, especially for young struggling people, it's about society, it's about guns, it's about free education, it's about a guarantee of health care, it's about trials with a professional jury service (not just some high emotional average citizen).
The US have decided to be a savage society, that what many european at least perceive. Roger Cohen had yesterday a quite good column about that. This attitude is reflected in your incarceration. But prisons are just a symptom, not a cause. You just can't turn one screw and get something totally different.
I suggest, unless you would like to overhaul your whole society, you rather stuck with what you got. The german imprisonment system will not work for you.
183
Thank you for your truth telling. I wish it could be heard here.
1
I agree with what you say except for the last paragraph. Do you really think that other countries, let alone so many of us Americans, can escape the savagery?
The US is too big and powerful for any of us to simply accept as it is now.
The US is too big and powerful for any of us to simply accept as it is now.
What you call a savage society is, as reflected in another recent NYT article, a preference for individual responsibility and accountability. You also forget the taxation level endured by most Germans. While I do see the issue of over-incarcertaion in the US, I see few issues with the guiding principles of our so-called "savage society".
America does not promote human dignity at home.
Outside the prisons, look at when the prisoners came from. It was no better there.
Get a police escort to walk around our collapsed cities. Don't go alone, but go. Look.
My first recent drive down Six Mile Road in Detroit was stunning. I just could not believe it. It was like something out of a third world war zone.
That is the American alternative to human dignity as a value.
Outside the prisons, look at when the prisoners came from. It was no better there.
Get a police escort to walk around our collapsed cities. Don't go alone, but go. Look.
My first recent drive down Six Mile Road in Detroit was stunning. I just could not believe it. It was like something out of a third world war zone.
That is the American alternative to human dignity as a value.
143
There will come a time, perhaps in the next few decades, when the very concept of putting people in prison is considered "cruel and unusual punishment" in all but extreme cases. We are a society thoroughly dedicated to punishment for its own sake, so it will take a major change to look at things differently, but we have seen great change in many other areas, so it can happen in regard to imprisonment, too.
To lock people away with no connections to the outside world is to further encourage the mental isolation and lack of social integration that leads to crime in the first place. There is no dignity in prison. I visited the inside of a prison for a couple of afternoons in eastern Kentucky when working on a television program and I didn't like what I saw. Life inside is reduced to an ugly, necessary essence with all the basic needs of humans, aside from food and shelter, denied.
There are many other ways to deal with non-violent criminals and those who have not embarked on a life of crime. One way is to incarcerate overnight and on weekends, but our prison systems would consider this too difficult and complicated to handle, even though it would likely save money in the long run.
If we want more criminals and/or more despondent, depressed and hopeless people on our streets and in cities and towns, the current system is a good way to guarantee those results. Otherwise, change must come.
To lock people away with no connections to the outside world is to further encourage the mental isolation and lack of social integration that leads to crime in the first place. There is no dignity in prison. I visited the inside of a prison for a couple of afternoons in eastern Kentucky when working on a television program and I didn't like what I saw. Life inside is reduced to an ugly, necessary essence with all the basic needs of humans, aside from food and shelter, denied.
There are many other ways to deal with non-violent criminals and those who have not embarked on a life of crime. One way is to incarcerate overnight and on weekends, but our prison systems would consider this too difficult and complicated to handle, even though it would likely save money in the long run.
If we want more criminals and/or more despondent, depressed and hopeless people on our streets and in cities and towns, the current system is a good way to guarantee those results. Otherwise, change must come.
42
Nothing like making a feasible argument to convince those in power that you have something useful to contribute and cutting it short by saying something off the wall like the American criminal justice system is built on persistent racism.
5
"Off the wall"? I would say that that more appropriately applies to your comment. Or are you unaware of the HUGE racial disparities in law enforcement and rates of incarceration. Just to take one particularly well-known instance of this, young whites and young blacks have for a very long time smoked pot at about the same rates, yet it is mostly young blacks who have had their lives ruined for it with criminal convictions that never come off their records.
There is not space here to go into any detail, but you can certainly find this all out for yourself if you are arguing in good faith.
There is not space here to go into any detail, but you can certainly find this all out for yourself if you are arguing in good faith.
24
You will never see this in the United States. You might as well try to grow flowers on the moon.
22
Thank you for writing this. We can only hope.
13
Change requires more than hope: It requires action. Act!
1
America has a prison industrial complex and a school to prison pipeline. There is a lot of money in failure and crime. Cops, probation, judges, prison, parole and reincarceration. Billions of dollars! Now we have the privatization of justice and prisons. More money to "the private sector". Failure and more money from poor people.
The prison system in Louisiana looks like the prison system in Haiti. The prison system in the south is infested with poor Blacks in prison. The poor whites don't fare too much better.
The tv shows never talk about reality in prisons. They just make money off of phony cop shows.
The prison system in Louisiana looks like the prison system in Haiti. The prison system in the south is infested with poor Blacks in prison. The poor whites don't fare too much better.
The tv shows never talk about reality in prisons. They just make money off of phony cop shows.
56
Michael---Yes, phony cop shows and worse, all part of our crime fixation syndrome—and very profitable. Fiction detective/crime shows are 1 thing. But our big media news channels also push sensational reality shows exploiting public fear of crime and fascination with criminals and prisons.
MSNBC’s weekend schedule is mostly devoted to reality TV prison shows, called Lockup. Starting Friday night. They have a series called Sex Slavery in ( name the state.) at various times/channels. It's the public’s right to know the most salacious and sensational.
CNN has Death Row Stories on weekends. That's Entertainment! We’re the only civilized country that still does executions.
It’s revolting exploitation, and then these cable networks switch during the week to their normal news and political coverage, supposedly to keep us ‘informed’.
I wonder if countries with more humane and rational criminal justice systems have these so called reality entertainments, exploiting crime and punishment on their mainstream media TV.
Let big media do shows on programs to get jobs and training for released prisoners, with testimony from successful ex cons and their families. Positive examples as role models would be very interesting to the public, and may even inspire the prisoners.
MSNBC’s weekend schedule is mostly devoted to reality TV prison shows, called Lockup. Starting Friday night. They have a series called Sex Slavery in ( name the state.) at various times/channels. It's the public’s right to know the most salacious and sensational.
CNN has Death Row Stories on weekends. That's Entertainment! We’re the only civilized country that still does executions.
It’s revolting exploitation, and then these cable networks switch during the week to their normal news and political coverage, supposedly to keep us ‘informed’.
I wonder if countries with more humane and rational criminal justice systems have these so called reality entertainments, exploiting crime and punishment on their mainstream media TV.
Let big media do shows on programs to get jobs and training for released prisoners, with testimony from successful ex cons and their families. Positive examples as role models would be very interesting to the public, and may even inspire the prisoners.
10
I was almost afraid to read this article. As all references to "German Prisons" tend to center on the past injustices of the Second World War, and all too often overwhelm and obfuscate the ability to address any subject matter.
In this particular case, it happens to involve a German prison system, which strenuously strives to operate under the caveat that, an individual is
"Innocent until proven guilty".
In this way, it stands in rather stark contrast to way that "justice" and the interpretation of the law is enacted here; where one is deemed 'guilty, until proven innocent', And often sentenced to death --by either gun-shot, lethal- shot, or lynching.
Any quick review of the demographics of the U.S. prison system, will sadly bear this fact out.....So, quite possibly there is something to be learned.
In this particular case, it happens to involve a German prison system, which strenuously strives to operate under the caveat that, an individual is
"Innocent until proven guilty".
In this way, it stands in rather stark contrast to way that "justice" and the interpretation of the law is enacted here; where one is deemed 'guilty, until proven innocent', And often sentenced to death --by either gun-shot, lethal- shot, or lynching.
Any quick review of the demographics of the U.S. prison system, will sadly bear this fact out.....So, quite possibly there is something to be learned.
11
Please wake up! It's 2015, not 1945. Some countries in this world moved on and developed - humanly, socially, mentally. In all these matters, there hasn't been much progress in the U.S. for decades. You were once in the spot position about 70 years ago, now you have become a "developing" country, which isn't developing.
No harm meant! That's just a subjective opinion of somebody outside the U.S., who spent there 1 year and is interested in "why the things are today like they are".
No harm meant! That's just a subjective opinion of somebody outside the U.S., who spent there 1 year and is interested in "why the things are today like they are".
2
@Markus, Germany
I am aware of the date. And I am also aware that there are many in the U.S. who still harbor deep emotions about the past.
I for one, take no harm in your opinion and agree with you point for point.
As far as being subjective, I have spent many years in Germany, as I am a half German--so I have had the advantage of looking at both cultures up close, and from afar.
Noch was. Perhaps spending 1 year here isn't long enough to truly understand our multi-cultural and complex society.
I am aware of the date. And I am also aware that there are many in the U.S. who still harbor deep emotions about the past.
I for one, take no harm in your opinion and agree with you point for point.
As far as being subjective, I have spent many years in Germany, as I am a half German--so I have had the advantage of looking at both cultures up close, and from afar.
Noch was. Perhaps spending 1 year here isn't long enough to truly understand our multi-cultural and complex society.
1
Rubbish !
I visited several over the years they are NOT pleasant places and they often throw juveniles in them too !
I visited several over the years they are NOT pleasant places and they often throw juveniles in them too !
@Paul Martin Beverly Hills
NO jails are pleasant. Nor are they supposed to be.....And there is a big difference between "visiting", and actually being incarcerated there.
NO jails are pleasant. Nor are they supposed to be.....And there is a big difference between "visiting", and actually being incarcerated there.
4
Mr. Martin, are you suggesting that the surge simply made this all up? If he didn't (and it really doesn't seem likely that he did) then your "Rubbish!" remark is a little over the top.
2
One of the two criminal justice systems discussed in this column sounds civilized. Which is the only exceptional country in the world again?
33
Our society seems to dismiss huge swaths of its population almost automatically by our refusal to acknowledge what everyone needs to succeed: personal security, a healthy food supply, health care (not just health insurance), universal preschool and excellent free instruction at least through high school. Very few people can provide all that for themselves. How did greed, ignorance and cruelty become the dominant forces in America? What a tragic waste of priceless human capital.
83
@Kathy, San Francisco
I regret to have to answer your very valid question: "How did greed, ignorance and cruelty become the dominant forces in America?, this way:
Simply put. It is by greed, ignorance, and cruelty.
How else to explain the fact that these forces that built our country, are still in control.
Apparently, these truths are not so: "Self-evident." And all men are not created equal. Unfortunately, our American history only proves this.
I regret to have to answer your very valid question: "How did greed, ignorance and cruelty become the dominant forces in America?, this way:
Simply put. It is by greed, ignorance, and cruelty.
How else to explain the fact that these forces that built our country, are still in control.
Apparently, these truths are not so: "Self-evident." And all men are not created equal. Unfortunately, our American history only proves this.
2
@Kathy, San Francisco
Case and point. I sincerely thank you for being another voice in the wilderness.
Case and point. I sincerely thank you for being another voice in the wilderness.
2
A sobering comparison. I believe we are very far indeed from the humane, sensible approach to incarceration depicted in this article. Too many of us, mostly Christians, despise convicts and think no penalty too severe, no living conditions too punitive.
I am not optimistic about substantive change in this mindset.
I am not optimistic about substantive change in this mindset.
39
Just as in medical care and other issues the "not invented here" thinking rules. Some decades ago when Congress was not in session many members traveled to foreign countries. Sometimes they were junkets but at least they did get away from the lobbyists and learn a few new facts.
8
As long as we have clowns like Marco Rubio, Donald Trump, Ted Cruz, and even worse people like George W. Bush running things, we will not have any sort of rehabilitation or humanity in US prisons. We don't even bother to treat our free citizens humanely when they have problems. We let mentally ill people go without medication or treatment and then, if they are paranoid schizophrenics who commit a crime we say that they are hardened criminals. We prefer to listen to the NRA's motto about good people with guns stopping the bad people with guns. Shooting is just so much easier. So is executing, solitary confinement, letting the prisoners rot as well as letting children grow up in poverty with bad schools and surroundings. But what's worse is that we let white collar criminals get away with ruining far more lives than any bank robber could.
Most Americans don't believe in rehabilitation while in prison. They don't want money spent on training criminals in useful trades, on educating them beyond where they dropped out of school or failed to progress due to learning disabilities. And they like the idea of having a person's conviction follow them wherever they go. It's almost as good as the scarlet A worn by Hester Prynne. The only way I think we'll see reform is when we have no money left to spend on creating a good society for all.
Most Americans don't believe in rehabilitation while in prison. They don't want money spent on training criminals in useful trades, on educating them beyond where they dropped out of school or failed to progress due to learning disabilities. And they like the idea of having a person's conviction follow them wherever they go. It's almost as good as the scarlet A worn by Hester Prynne. The only way I think we'll see reform is when we have no money left to spend on creating a good society for all.
111
Most Americans never give any thought to prison life or prison reform. Those who profit from the prison industry have little interest in reform.
2