The ethical question is, "Are you using another person in way that could do harm to the person you are in a relationship with?" That could mean using a spouse to in a way that harms the person you're "cheating" with, or using a person you're cheating with to hurt your spouse. Ethical questions include ethical motives. One does not have a duty to be honest, but one ought not to use others in ways that causes harm to the innocent.
16
We encourage coming out of the closet and emancipation for LGBT people, but not married heterosexuals in sexually stultifying but otherwise functional marriages.
Yet how is a heterosexual's sexuality any less important to their sense of self worth, identity, mental health and wellbeing, etc that a gay, lesbian, bi- or transgendered person's? So many of the comments about non-monogamy are about "sucking it up" "sex isn't that important" and canonizing the spouse who's lost interest in sex while demonizing the one left out in the cold and telling them to leave their marriages and live the bachelor/bachelorette life.
Since when is breaking up a family because one spouse's needs are being dismissed a family-friendly or humane suggestion?
We are on the cusp of ceasing to view gay marriage and transgenderism as not pathological. It's time we say heterosexual desire within marriage the same way. Openness is hard, no matter what the topic. A lot of marriages suffer from mismatched desires; human relationships are full of those imbalances, but why should the choice always be posited in terms of closing the door to sex for the partner who wants/needs it or leaving?
I don't think much of these websites, since they encourage secrecy as a way of keeping options open. Openness works; we just aren't very practiced at it. And being good at it isn't any guarantee. As with every relationship, honesty counts. Perhaps the lesson here is that most of us aren't very good at it.
Yet how is a heterosexual's sexuality any less important to their sense of self worth, identity, mental health and wellbeing, etc that a gay, lesbian, bi- or transgendered person's? So many of the comments about non-monogamy are about "sucking it up" "sex isn't that important" and canonizing the spouse who's lost interest in sex while demonizing the one left out in the cold and telling them to leave their marriages and live the bachelor/bachelorette life.
Since when is breaking up a family because one spouse's needs are being dismissed a family-friendly or humane suggestion?
We are on the cusp of ceasing to view gay marriage and transgenderism as not pathological. It's time we say heterosexual desire within marriage the same way. Openness is hard, no matter what the topic. A lot of marriages suffer from mismatched desires; human relationships are full of those imbalances, but why should the choice always be posited in terms of closing the door to sex for the partner who wants/needs it or leaving?
I don't think much of these websites, since they encourage secrecy as a way of keeping options open. Openness works; we just aren't very practiced at it. And being good at it isn't any guarantee. As with every relationship, honesty counts. Perhaps the lesson here is that most of us aren't very good at it.
6
Uber nerds helping like minded (& bodied) fellow nerds find hot women by using money, gifts and the internet. Gotta love it! The internet does indeed level the playing field. Previously, being rich, good looking and accomplished were the only ways to snag a gorgeous wife.
What's next? With preimplantation genetic diagnosis and gene therapy, we can make your child, the child of like bodied nerd wife and nerd husband, grow up to be tall, lean, good looking, sociable and gorgeous.
What's next? With preimplantation genetic diagnosis and gene therapy, we can make your child, the child of like bodied nerd wife and nerd husband, grow up to be tall, lean, good looking, sociable and gorgeous.
3
The inmates have taken over the asylum
2
Feminist Ayn Rand committed adultery with her protégé Nathaniel Branden. Rand insisted his wife Barbara and Ann’s husband Frank O’Conner know about her adultery. Barbara said that those years were “often terribly painful and difficult.”
Rand, intellectual mother of principled self-interest, had ardently pursued an interest in Ms. Branden’s husband, Nathaniel. Though 25 years apart in age, they had an affair for about 15 years.
Some of the most repulsive ideas in the world do not need a counter-argument.
It’s telling that Ann Ryand created a fictional man with character and ethics in her novel “The Fountainhead” when she had none herself.
There’s the selfish betrayal of Rand’s brand of Objectivism, the philosophy of rational self-interest which led to sexual paraphilia.
5
Brandon Wade lost me when he said that "monogamy in the traditional sense is not working for the majority of us." Oh, really? You say that, thrice married? I think it has not worded out for you, Brandon. Don't expand your experience to the rest of the world, which contains more happy, monogamous pairings than you think. I have no patience for anyone who thinks their worldview is the only truth.
I wonder why you keep getting married, if you have so little respect for the "traditional" union.
The problem with taking the stance that your enabling site is ethical is in your assumption (or pose) that all those participating are doing so with permission form their significant others. That is a nice fantasy. I know many married men who have joined dating sites -- posing as single -- so they can cheat. I have to assume that this sleazy site is much the same. People sneaking around. How tacky and, frankly, sordid.
I wonder why you keep getting married, if you have so little respect for the "traditional" union.
The problem with taking the stance that your enabling site is ethical is in your assumption (or pose) that all those participating are doing so with permission form their significant others. That is a nice fantasy. I know many married men who have joined dating sites -- posing as single -- so they can cheat. I have to assume that this sleazy site is much the same. People sneaking around. How tacky and, frankly, sordid.
3
Is this news or advertising? As so many others have pointed out, "ethical cheating" is an oxymoron -- a nonsense term that only an self-serving cad or half-witted marketing agent would love....
3
Marriage folly. Stolen waters taste sweeter—temporarily.
It is impure betrayal.
It's like jumping out of the 120th floor of the Empire State Building. You feel great until you hit the ground
We've been there. Done that.
Suggestions for sexual success have been touted by a lot of social hypocrites.
Years back the book "Open Marriage" came out telling us to share our spouse with others for a better marriage.
Ten years later the same husband and wife team espoused "The New Fidelity" of staying true to one's spouse.
Read the tragically sad case of Simone de Beauvoir and her open relationship with Jean Paul Sartre to realize the deep pain caused by liberal thinkers to each other—mostly other (meaning women).
One women told of having an open relationship with fifteen different lovers. She admitted ending up feeling like an empty shell of a zombie.
Most people end up in the spiritual—if not physical—trash can emotionally as well.
This kind of thing just doesn't work with human beings despite the facade of pleasantries presented in front of others.
There is much richness in marriage than just sex and stability. Being faithful to one another is one of them. Growing old together another. Enjoying the accomplishments in career and raising decent children and grandchildren, etc.
If their is no love nor fear of God nor commitment then people run after the latest insanity of how to conduct oneself morally—sexual or otherwise.
6
Put me down as a Jimmy Carter, having committed infidelity in my mind. There are too many beautiful people not to have an erotic imagination. I don't know that I'd ever really embrace something other than the vows I've taken, but I'm all for others exploring this territory.
In my life, men operate on the principle that they can cheat if they don't get caught. Most of them do get caught, and divorce traumatizes the children and enriches the lawyers and never actually solves the problem. I believe many of the divorces I've witnessed would not have happened if there were some other way to repair the trauma of the infidelity or make cheating socially-permissible—more of a problem to be solved and moved past.
Beyond the philosophical claim of the engineer profiled in this article, there's the empirical reality that every society and sub-culture makes its own rules regarding sex and relationships. The French have mistresses, many gay men have open relationships of some sort (well, before gay marriage at least). I agree with the sentiment of the article that there is probably a less-damaging way to structure marriage around the way many people inevitably behave.
In my life, men operate on the principle that they can cheat if they don't get caught. Most of them do get caught, and divorce traumatizes the children and enriches the lawyers and never actually solves the problem. I believe many of the divorces I've witnessed would not have happened if there were some other way to repair the trauma of the infidelity or make cheating socially-permissible—more of a problem to be solved and moved past.
Beyond the philosophical claim of the engineer profiled in this article, there's the empirical reality that every society and sub-culture makes its own rules regarding sex and relationships. The French have mistresses, many gay men have open relationships of some sort (well, before gay marriage at least). I agree with the sentiment of the article that there is probably a less-damaging way to structure marriage around the way many people inevitably behave.
9
What separates WhatsYourPrice.com from a prostitution website or escort service? Is it that the bidding for a date doesn't explicitly say "bidding for sex?" Another question - why are men bidding on women and not the other way around?
Yes Mr. Wade is out for a profit, but at who's expense?
Yes Mr. Wade is out for a profit, but at who's expense?
13
Sure, the serial rapist should also be freed because they really planned things in advance and she obviously said yes too. It's the ethical way to do it. While we are at it, let the premeditated murderers go free too.
3
Most people say they are firmly against it, but I when I worked in a [insert professional occupation offices], it was common knowledge that almost every decent looking, straight, married woman in the place was having an affair (which means of course there is a corresponding man), I've never looked at nor believed office sex survey statistics since then.
3
I have been propositioned by countless married men all my life. I've heard all their drab stories. I can never understand why these unfulfilled people stay married. It never seems fair to the unsuspecting other half. Why don't they release them to find someone who appreciates them? I'll always wonder about this.
6
Counterpoint from a married man, I've been propositioned, flashed, and rubbed up against by numerous women, many of whom were married. Not than I'm complaining mind you.
I had to laugh a couple of times later on, because a couple of times the proposition went right over my head. Oh, she meant THAT!
I had to laugh a couple of times later on, because a couple of times the proposition went right over my head. Oh, she meant THAT!
2
Why not tell the wives?
The one semi-open marriage that I was privy to foundered because it was really pushed by one persuasive partner and more or less acceded to by the others. No one weighed emotional reactions, as if they would be reasoned away. By it never works to tell yourself you shouldn't feel what you do feel. And most of us have insecurity in intimate relationships - and steeling oneself to accept situations that feel threatening eventually means walling off the good feelings as well.
It doesn't bother me that someone has developed a site for this, but I wouldn't call Mr Wade "progressive" as there's nothing new here other than profiting from offering a more convenient way for some people to find link minded non-relationships. Again, terming his ideas "progressive views about monogamy" is off ( tongue in cheek?): he is against monogamy, and has nothing to say about relationships, but has a razor sharp understanding of how to profit from people's interest in sex.
It doesn't bother me that someone has developed a site for this, but I wouldn't call Mr Wade "progressive" as there's nothing new here other than profiting from offering a more convenient way for some people to find link minded non-relationships. Again, terming his ideas "progressive views about monogamy" is off ( tongue in cheek?): he is against monogamy, and has nothing to say about relationships, but has a razor sharp understanding of how to profit from people's interest in sex.
4
What I find most dismaying is not Wade's attitude towards monogamy (his three marriages are his business to solve with a good therapist, hopefully), but his crassly materialistic view of dating and romantic relationships, and the retrograde way women are presented as being only valuable for their youth and beauty. All of his prior sites have emphasized material exchanges and shallowness over what really makes a relationship tick, and unlike those who are pretty sure they're just fronts for escorts, he seems to genuinely believe that that's how you date. What a mess.
33
“Jerry, just remember: It’s not a lie ............. if you believe it.”
George Costanza, Seinfeld, 1995 season, episode 102
George Costanza, Seinfeld, 1995 season, episode 102
14
A marriage is a committed relationship. Either you are devoted to your partner or you are not. If you are not then it is not a marriage, it is you seeking self gratification with complete disregard for your partner. I suspect that open marriages consist of one partner who wants monogamy and the other who does not. Don't bother getting married and lying to your partner when all you care about is yourself.
11
I think two more features that show how the power relationships in this go are the other sites the man founded all about men buying women's attentions in very old-fashioned sexist ways. And the NYTimes seems happy to suggest that this is the "natural" order of things by showing a photo with a man his arm around having many attractive young woman. Not the other way around. One wonders how the 68% of the men who go on these sites would feel if their spouses "ethically" cheated to the degree they try to.
10
Clearly the MIT and Sloan School education have allowed him to build companies very effectively. Where should one go to learn to be a positively effective citizen?
12
It seems that the "ethical cheating" moniker is just a marketing ploy used to rationalize and titillate. Next.
12
So what is the point to being married because you are certainly not committed to each other?
7
there is economic and emotional value in being married
6
Get a guard dog
3
Cheating is when the other member of your relationship doesn't know about your sexual encounters. An open marriage is completely different and not defined as cheating. You discuss with your partner who you are interested in and then the both of your plan the encounter together, no cheating is involved and nothing is done behind the others back. Sometimes it will evolve into a threesome with your partner and the other person, sometimes it will not. You can not have this type of a relationship with your other half unless you both know each other completely and have total trust in each other. It will not survive if you both are not emotionally stable and sure of your love for each other.
7
Er, yes. And sometimes you can invite the 82nd Airborne, the cast of Yes, You Can Dance, and the Third Circuit Court of Appeals. Just as long as you disclose, right?
1
I think a lot is revealed about the power in the relationships by the term "disclose" with your spouse that you (note you) will cheat not discuss with your spouse about the nature the relationship you share.
5
One word : sad!
13
There can be and is not any such thing as "ethical cheating". This article is sophistry, at best.
Mr. Webb's motives are obvious. I wonder what he will do with the personal information he gathers on his site? His prior wives could not trust his word, why should anybody else, regardless of what his registration documents and policies state.
Mr. Webb's motives are obvious. I wonder what he will do with the personal information he gathers on his site? His prior wives could not trust his word, why should anybody else, regardless of what his registration documents and policies state.
12
This website and the whiff of "ethical cheating" is sketchy, but a functional website for non-monogamous dating has been sorely needed. I expect that if it succeeds at all, it will clean up and wise up fast. It's the first step towards the multiple marriage legalization that the NYT is all abuzz about!
My father, God bless his soul, got remarried in 1980, long after my mother had died of cancer in 1971. His second wife was, in some ways, similar to my Mom, but was slightly more culturally open-minded. She had my father read a book called "Open Marriage" which was fashionable back then, which proposed exactly what Mr. Wade is talking about here. I didn't believe in it back then, and I still don't.
People get married for all sorts of reasons, and have done so ever since the institution has been known for much of our written history. It posits an ideal, one based on eternal love and fidelity to that love. In that sense, it is more than one society's version of entrapment. It is a heavenly ideal, which is how come it is still often performed inside a church.
People who deviate from that ideal, even when they do it consciously and with their partner's blessing, do so at the peril of their marriage. There will be no end to the ego games played with each other as a result of such infidelities. There is no way around the ideal of marriage. Either follow it, or don't get married. See the TV show "The Sopranos" re Tony and Carmela's marriage if you doubt what I am saying. Even in the midst of a lawless environment, marriage is a sacred vow. Believe it.
6
Bingo! You said what I was thinking re: "The Sopranos" namely: if you think there is such a thing as "ethical cheating" take a look at how the mob handles members who deviate from the "agreement."
2
You guys are referencing a completely fictional TV show to support your particular view of the world? Priceless!
The show reflected real life.
What goes around comes around! We're back to the "open" relationships of the 70's. (And you can hear more about it on CNN's show.)
2
I remain amazed what people have the time and energy to become involved with during the peak years of establishing educational credentials, building a career(s), creating and caring for children, reaching ones earning potential, managing household(s), achieving sufficient exercise, sleep and nutrition for an optimally healthy life and all the other tasks modern life in the US imposes. Sexual adventures with multiple partners? Who has time for the commute much less the acts?
17
And what about the two dinners on a Sunday?
And what about STD's? Please don't bring any home dear. Condoms are not 100% effective.
Everyone's free of course to try and have the kind of relationship they want. If you just want sex, with no strings, fine. But don't get married. I personally wouldn't listen to this guy for advice, but to each their own.
In my experience, most partners as they mature realize that sex without some kind of trust, intimate bonding and deep emotional connection isn't as good as when you have those things. That some kind of authentic intimacy, commitment and caring between you and a partner really is important.
Another way of saying all this is to note that if you just want to go through life without really having to face your own shortcomings and conditioning, and learn that a shared journey can potentially be much richer than going it alone, then stay single.
If you want to actually grow & evolve in ways you can't when you're single, then commit to a partner you sense you can trust. You both have to grow to make it work over the decades, and like any significant endeavor there are no guarantees. But it is definitely worth committing to and doing your very best in my view, I wouldn't trade the journey I've had with my wife for anything, and I'd never be unfaithful.
In my experience, most partners as they mature realize that sex without some kind of trust, intimate bonding and deep emotional connection isn't as good as when you have those things. That some kind of authentic intimacy, commitment and caring between you and a partner really is important.
Another way of saying all this is to note that if you just want to go through life without really having to face your own shortcomings and conditioning, and learn that a shared journey can potentially be much richer than going it alone, then stay single.
If you want to actually grow & evolve in ways you can't when you're single, then commit to a partner you sense you can trust. You both have to grow to make it work over the decades, and like any significant endeavor there are no guarantees. But it is definitely worth committing to and doing your very best in my view, I wouldn't trade the journey I've had with my wife for anything, and I'd never be unfaithful.
33
It needs to be pointed out again: Wade is not offering marital advice.
You are arguing past the issue.
You are arguing past the issue.
There are a lot of indignant folks here. For the most part they say don't get married if you don't want to be faithful. There is even one who makes the remarkably ignorant statement "isn't that the reason people marry, they want to stop dating?" (Never heard that one in vows at a wedding, but whatever)
The agreement goes both ways. My fiancé and I made it clear that infidelity would not be tolerated. What is the difference between our agreement and one where infidelity is allowed? Folks just need to stop judging and mind their own business.
The agreement goes both ways. My fiancé and I made it clear that infidelity would not be tolerated. What is the difference between our agreement and one where infidelity is allowed? Folks just need to stop judging and mind their own business.
5
It's just an article, and these are just comments. In real life, believe me, we aren't asking.
4
Sorry for a second post, but you'll want to check out your marriage vows so that the words "forsaking all others, cleaving only to him (or her)" don't take you by surprise.
5
My wedding vows will be what my fiance and I want them to be so I'm rather certain nothing will take me by surprise. Your argument is absurd. I say it again, this time to you specifically, mind your own business.
3
For a lot of people, having a relationship(s) is like rock climbing: they need to feel secure with three or at least two limbs while reaching for an exciting daring new hold with the forth. Many people only know they feel good when they 1) have sex 2) maybe also when eating. So that's why the goal is to lift your Buddha consciousness up from your groin and stomach (at least once in a while) to your heart and head. You know, get to know and commune with what's in the head of your partner once in a while. As you get older you'll be happier with that. Its more of a tweet, tweet, flitter, flitter world every day. Like the rest of us, this guy wrestles these demons giving in to lower and higher consciousnesses.
2
If you and your partner agree before hand that you will have an open marriage, wonderful. If you can negotiate an open marriage afterwards - fantastic. If one partner dictates what the marriage is going to be, as in I am going to date other people now, then it's not a marriage. Personally I think Mr. Wade is unethical, but I am all for people making their own decisions. When I met my now deceased husband, we discussed where "our lines" were. We were a good match - infidelity was a deal breaker for both of us.
8
Cheating is what wall street does.
Romantic interest in people other than ones spouse is not cheating,it is normal and even good. Don't beg the question with pejorative language.
Romantic interest in people other than ones spouse is not cheating,it is normal and even good. Don't beg the question with pejorative language.
There is nothing ethical in using an outsider to satisfy your sexual appetite. You cannot give that outsider anything: neither emotional support nor prospect of commitment, family and children, you are cheating them out of empathy, of love and of care. While remaining ethical to your spouse, you are a predator to the outside world. I think open marriage is the worst kind of abuse. At least there is a contract in polygamy, some sort of unsigned contact with mistress, some equality in swinging. But those in open marriages who hunt singles (which is the case for many younger couples) are pure predators, callous, cruel and damaging.
6
"Ethical Cheating" is nonsensical. To defend it as meaning something is a travesty of logic! A cheat by definition is an unethical choice or action. To say otherwise is pure nonsense and simply a spin to defend cheating. Sad to say, this seems to be the way of the world nowadays.
6
You're absolutely right, there's no ethical cheating. It's a ridicules term used to sensationalize and stir up folks like yourself.
Open relationships are NOT about cheating. They are about two adults deciding what works for them within their relationship instead of doing what everyone else tells them to do, whether it works or not.
Open relationships are NOT about cheating. They are about two adults deciding what works for them within their relationship instead of doing what everyone else tells them to do, whether it works or not.
1
this strikes me as an entrepreneurial marketing piece fishing for some angel investment. or sugar daddy investment. or whatever.
i don't really care about the whole ethical, moral, biological side of this. my question is simple: how many people are really accommodated by this kind of thing? is this like Uber, where the small subset of people who actually use the service are almost always well served and happy? or is it more like chat, where the satisfaction comes from the virtual (illusory) social play among tens of millions of users?
there is and surely will remain an active online trade in prostitution, using these kinds of sites as cover (now that craigslist has clamped down on "relationships"). Wade would certainly reject the inference, but users are well known to turn a business model to their own purposes, and i don't read how Wade plans to ensure that the implicated spouses are "ethically" informed, or that the eventual hookups, many or few as they may be, are non transactional.
i don't really care about the whole ethical, moral, biological side of this. my question is simple: how many people are really accommodated by this kind of thing? is this like Uber, where the small subset of people who actually use the service are almost always well served and happy? or is it more like chat, where the satisfaction comes from the virtual (illusory) social play among tens of millions of users?
there is and surely will remain an active online trade in prostitution, using these kinds of sites as cover (now that craigslist has clamped down on "relationships"). Wade would certainly reject the inference, but users are well known to turn a business model to their own purposes, and i don't read how Wade plans to ensure that the implicated spouses are "ethically" informed, or that the eventual hookups, many or few as they may be, are non transactional.
2
It's really quite simple - ask yourself: 1) have you ever been cheated on, or 2) have you ever cheated on your partner? Reflect on how you felt - destroyed, angry, sad, or paranoid and anxious that your infidelity will be exposed, or maybe you're just one of those selfish human being who can rationalize behavior that our whole culture considers taboo. Either feeling answers the question that no, there is no such thing as ethical cheating. I really feel for the poster who wrote from the child's point-of-view of having a serial cheater for a father. Sad.
6
Okay, I am going out on a limb here and I will start sawing. One problem with the marriage arrangement is not allowing enough room for friendship. especially with members of the opposite sex. It is widely assumed that if you develop friendship, then other stuff will follow and, well, that can't be allowed. So, just avoid making friends and having anyone of the other sex with whom your are close. Bam. A big part of life is gone.
My friend, the great writer Larry McMurtry, shares my view that talking to other men is often useless. Men have been taught to be afraid of their emotions, afraid of what really constitutes being human. Men bury stuff, women reveal it. Women have the full range of life while many men, if not most, hide from it. In the place McMurtry was born and raised, Texas, this is especially true. The Texan male, as in novels and movies, is largely non-verbal. Talking is necessary at times, but, you know, don't go overboard.
I have heard and read that some people believe if you disclose intimate thoughts to someone of the opposite sex, that's cheating. Horse feathers (or some other substance, unnamed). Marriage was not supposed to be a prison. If it has to be a prison for the marriage to survive, it is not worth it.
Other parts of the world are far ahead of us. I saw a popular British magazine about 10 yrs. ago with a full spread on how to arrange a multi-partner evening in your home.
The question: how to make marriage work and also stay healthy, for both?
My friend, the great writer Larry McMurtry, shares my view that talking to other men is often useless. Men have been taught to be afraid of their emotions, afraid of what really constitutes being human. Men bury stuff, women reveal it. Women have the full range of life while many men, if not most, hide from it. In the place McMurtry was born and raised, Texas, this is especially true. The Texan male, as in novels and movies, is largely non-verbal. Talking is necessary at times, but, you know, don't go overboard.
I have heard and read that some people believe if you disclose intimate thoughts to someone of the opposite sex, that's cheating. Horse feathers (or some other substance, unnamed). Marriage was not supposed to be a prison. If it has to be a prison for the marriage to survive, it is not worth it.
Other parts of the world are far ahead of us. I saw a popular British magazine about 10 yrs. ago with a full spread on how to arrange a multi-partner evening in your home.
The question: how to make marriage work and also stay healthy, for both?
22
A added thought, if I may. To have a full and active life, one has to take risks. That includes inside marriage. While couples often check up on each other (Where were you? Who were you with? Why didn't you call?), taking risks involves allowing for the possibility that something more than friendship might develop outside of the marriage. Risk is a necessary part of life and a necessary part of marriage. Trying to hold a person too close is, in my view, a mistake and can be ruinous.
It is widely assumed that men only want sex, but almost never considered is the idea that sexual involvement is one of the few ways that people, if they choose, can confirm and extend friendship and deep affection. Marriage mitigates against this, of course, but we lose out even as we gain in stability and reliability of connections inside marriage. Yeah, yeah. I know, the old conundrum called LIFE.
It is widely assumed that men only want sex, but almost never considered is the idea that sexual involvement is one of the few ways that people, if they choose, can confirm and extend friendship and deep affection. Marriage mitigates against this, of course, but we lose out even as we gain in stability and reliability of connections inside marriage. Yeah, yeah. I know, the old conundrum called LIFE.
3
Touche. Especially here in the U.S., this mentality that 'men and women can't be friends' is particularly prevalent. And indeed, for many, marriages become prisons where each party believes the other can no longer do certain things (i.e., be friends with someone of the opposite sex...even a former spouse or partner...all ties must be severed or only occur in the context of 'couples nights out' or 'couples only-vacations' (nothing to do with open relationships btw)
It's so strong a belief that if a married person is seen out without their spouse, soon enough tongues will start wagging 'is everything OK with Mark and Susan...I saw her out at dinner the other night and Mark was not with her'. Talk about a close-minded society we live in! But at the root, it's all about fear and insecurity...not conforming to social mores, this notion that your spouse should be your 'best' friend and glued to your hip 24/7...that you can't possibly have your own lives, friends or hobbies...that you enjoy spending time with all your partner's friends and their spouses, and vice versa. Blech.
The most truly healthy relationships are those that recognize their partner and themselves as an individual person. Sure they will spend a lot of time together, but there's nothing wrong, and in fact it's best, when they also do things apart. For to do otherwise is a recipe for boredom, resentment, and a stagnant relationship, and stagnancy in you as a person who should never stop developing.
It's so strong a belief that if a married person is seen out without their spouse, soon enough tongues will start wagging 'is everything OK with Mark and Susan...I saw her out at dinner the other night and Mark was not with her'. Talk about a close-minded society we live in! But at the root, it's all about fear and insecurity...not conforming to social mores, this notion that your spouse should be your 'best' friend and glued to your hip 24/7...that you can't possibly have your own lives, friends or hobbies...that you enjoy spending time with all your partner's friends and their spouses, and vice versa. Blech.
The most truly healthy relationships are those that recognize their partner and themselves as an individual person. Sure they will spend a lot of time together, but there's nothing wrong, and in fact it's best, when they also do things apart. For to do otherwise is a recipe for boredom, resentment, and a stagnant relationship, and stagnancy in you as a person who should never stop developing.
5
Actually, half of my friends are married males!
Similarly, I would have a hard time dating a guy who did not have a lot of female friends. That shows that he can't be friends with girls because he only thinks girls are good for one thing. NOT who I want to be in a relationship with.
Similarly, I would have a hard time dating a guy who did not have a lot of female friends. That shows that he can't be friends with girls because he only thinks girls are good for one thing. NOT who I want to be in a relationship with.
Tell your spouse about your plans? Better yet don't make those plans. I and my beautiful wife are just three weeks shy of having been married 40 years, and I am glad that neither of us has been tempted to walk on the wild side. That would have ruined our marriage, our happy home and our children, On the other hand if one decides to take that risk, do not sleep next to your spouse; you may well not wake up the next morning.
5
I must say I did a double take recently when riding in a car with my husband in Paris, I saw a large ad on the back of a public bus for a site called Gleeden for married people who want to have extra conjugal relations. It brought back memories of some years ago finding a magazine for teenage girls/women called "Jeune et Jolie", under my 15 yr old daughter's bed, while vacuuming. Scanning the cover I saw that one of the lead articles was (translated from French) - " How to seduce a married man in your workplace".
I guess things never change, they just move online- plus ça change.....
"How to successfully seduce a married man in your workplace". I guess it's lots easier now with these websites.
I guess things never change, they just move online- plus ça change.....
"How to successfully seduce a married man in your workplace". I guess it's lots easier now with these websites.
1
If you're in an open relationship, it's not cheating. If you're not in an open relationship, it's cheating. Why invent some new unnecessary and obtuse terminology ("ethical cheating")?
29
Either way it is cheating and betrayal.
I was once propositioned by a married man who swore he lived in an open marriage. When the opportunity arose (no one was home, come on over?) -- I said "Great! Just put your wife on the phone so I can make sure it's okay!" Needless to Say, Mr. Sort-of-Married-Guy beat a hasty retreat.
13
"Is there such a thing as 'ethical cheating'?" The answer is NO, and all the rationalizations to the contrary are just horse-feathers.
5
It's not "cheating" if everything is upfront and consensual; in other words, if that's what the couple has agreed to.
1
I'm not a believer that open marriages really work (and no, I will not take someone's word for it they do) but there are always exceptions for everything and it must be possible. It would be an interesting study to see how many couples who have signed up are still together in ten years compared to the general population.
4
My take on open marriages is that the man is always in a more disadvantaged
position than the woman. The woman always has the power.
position than the woman. The woman always has the power.
1
I had a hearty laugh over the notion that married dates had honor to defend.
5
It seems that there is a lot of money to be made by operating a business like this. I need to check with one of my web designer friends and a lawyer or two about getting on this train.
3
If you are bored with your spouse or just plain no longer wish to be monogamous, the ethical thing to do is get a divorce so you can date with abandon. Yes, it will cost you in many ways but if you are truly ethical, shouldn't you bear the cost of your decision instead of shifting it onto your innocent spouse by using all of these "ethical cheating" websites?
11
we already tried this. it was called open marriage in the sixties. Research showed it didn't promote stable marriages but helped end them. If you want multiple relationships, stay single and uncommitted. there is nothing new under the sun...
13
Please point us toward the research that you speak of, I'd enjoy reviewing it.
It's not cheating if you tell your partner and your partner is cool with it.
5
"if parties agree." and what if later or down the road one of the parties changes their minds. this happened to a friend who thought he was in an open relationship (permission granted! both ways!). then one day his wife left him so she could settle down with someone - some One who didn't want anybody else but her. lots of hurt and repercussions ensued. the truth came down the usual: being home alone while someone is out with someone else got old. trying to keep up with that so she wasn't home alone got old. and although he was honest with all of the "sex partners", having chicklets call in the middle of the night got old for his wife too. from which i observed that a lot more goes into the "open" equation than agreeing that stepping out on each other is and will be ok - until it isn't...
48
I have known several polyamorous couples, and they all have been fiercely attached to the idea that agreeing on the boundaries of allowable conduct ahead of time was the key to happiness and the avoidance of conflict.
What I observed was that many of them were simply not able to eliminate jealousy with a contract. One woman I knew was unfazed when her partner dated what she called his "nerd crushes," but became very worried about losing her dominant position in the hierarchy when he found someone that was similar to her. In my observation, there is almost always a hierarchy of attachment, and many devotees of polyamory spend a great deal of mental effort in an attempt to defend or improve their position on said hierarchy.
The danger of believing that clear ground rules will remove all obstacles is that it is an unrealistic imposition of a rational structure on emotional needs. Many times these emotional needs are kept hidden until they burst forth in an ugly confrontation. These contracts often lull people into repetitive denial that any action could be insensitive as long as it done within the rules.
I know of one polyamorous man who slept with a virgin outside of his primary relationships. I was friends with them both, and it dismayed me to hear from the woman that he had cordially abandoned her, having fulfilled the terms of his contract. She had rationally accepted what she was getting into, but was unprepared for his casual insensitivity.
What I observed was that many of them were simply not able to eliminate jealousy with a contract. One woman I knew was unfazed when her partner dated what she called his "nerd crushes," but became very worried about losing her dominant position in the hierarchy when he found someone that was similar to her. In my observation, there is almost always a hierarchy of attachment, and many devotees of polyamory spend a great deal of mental effort in an attempt to defend or improve their position on said hierarchy.
The danger of believing that clear ground rules will remove all obstacles is that it is an unrealistic imposition of a rational structure on emotional needs. Many times these emotional needs are kept hidden until they burst forth in an ugly confrontation. These contracts often lull people into repetitive denial that any action could be insensitive as long as it done within the rules.
I know of one polyamorous man who slept with a virgin outside of his primary relationships. I was friends with them both, and it dismayed me to hear from the woman that he had cordially abandoned her, having fulfilled the terms of his contract. She had rationally accepted what she was getting into, but was unprepared for his casual insensitivity.
69
Galen: Good comment. There are often good reasons why a social convention is as it is. In some cases it protects us and others from our weakness and self-deception. The friends you describe overestimated their ability to know or define themselves. They thought they could "eliminate jealousy with a contract," but they were wrong. The convention, it seems, knew better.
5
The problem is that emotions can't be predicted or made to remain within boundaries set by a contract. A mutual agreement to have relationships outside a marriage that will not develop into more than casual affairs is fine, but what happens if a partner develops deeper feelings for another person? Of course, the problem of unpredictable emotions is the same one that makes marriage itself so problematic. Promising to love someone forever is beautiful, but we can't force ourselves to continue to feel certain emotions, and in many cases they don't last.
1
'... She had rationally accepted what she was getting into, but was unprepared for his casual insensitivity...'
Since she knew what she was getting into ahead of time, it appears she was simply a fool.
Lot of that going around.
Since she knew what she was getting into ahead of time, it appears she was simply a fool.
Lot of that going around.
1
There is no such thing as ethical cheating. Cheating is cheating. It is not just the cheater's life that is affected. It affects faithful husbands and wives and the children involved. Another humiliation for faithful partners is having to test for sexually transmitted disease. If you want to cheat -- leave, separate or divorce --your faithful partner before entering into an illicit sexual affair.
27
Uh, would it still be called 'cheating?'
Seriously, the dating scene for people over, say, 40 carries the expectation that you're pursuing matrimony. There are very few places for such people, even if single, to pursue healthy, fun sexual relationships. Perhaps another benefit of his new project is to maybe legitimize them on their own terms, independent of marriage.
And within marriages, you gotta wonder how many of us would object if we knew this has nothing to do with the reasons we get married and stay that way.
Seriously, the dating scene for people over, say, 40 carries the expectation that you're pursuing matrimony. There are very few places for such people, even if single, to pursue healthy, fun sexual relationships. Perhaps another benefit of his new project is to maybe legitimize them on their own terms, independent of marriage.
And within marriages, you gotta wonder how many of us would object if we knew this has nothing to do with the reasons we get married and stay that way.
My now retired French admin assistant (I'm American, living here) told a co-worker, getting divorced because her marriage turned stale, "there are things couples do when that happens that do not include divorce." That was the French way once but I don't think it's as common with the younger generation. I'm not sure it's "cheating" if both spouses consent -- the core of cheating is dishonesty, not sex -- but, if it matters, like most locals my age I believe in monogamy.
7
There are lots of people conducting ethical non-monagamous relationships. If you are interested in how couples handle the communication process, try reading The Ethical Slut or other similar books. Or work with a therapist who specializes in helping people who want to make sure their partner's needs are respected.
That being said, the fellow highlighted in this article sounds like a charlatan. He is certainly not an expert on ethics, he seems like a huckster selling a product and using the word "ethical" to make it sell better, like products that say "organic" or "natural". If you want ethics in your non-monagamous marriage, do some research and seek out professionals with actual expertise...
That being said, the fellow highlighted in this article sounds like a charlatan. He is certainly not an expert on ethics, he seems like a huckster selling a product and using the word "ethical" to make it sell better, like products that say "organic" or "natural". If you want ethics in your non-monagamous marriage, do some research and seek out professionals with actual expertise...
14
Why bother getting married in the first place? Thank you for reminding me why the creator and his guidance for humankind separates us from the animal kingdom.
2
We are not separate from the animal world. We are a different kind of animal.
3
We live in an age of oxy-moronic " serial ethical cheating," and Mr. Wang's business enterprise is just slightly more absurd than the rest (the too-big-to-fail banks, the airline industry currently under investigation, tax evasion, polluting by dumping, wink-wink campaign contributions, and so it has been going for quite some time).
The trick is to redefine cheating to claim cheating is not cheating, rationalize the decision to cheat, perhaps have a formal Code of Ethics suitable for framing and mailing or pronounce yourself as an ethical person. Maybe say the victims are at fault because they agreed to the contract, and finally delude oneself about what a fine person one is. Just as long everything is copasetic in one's own mind, that's all that counts--never mind the impact on society and the community or one's friends and family. If it feels good and right to you or is profitable, just do it, with nary a concern about anyone else.
I taught college for more than 3 decades, and of the student cheaters I caught, every one of them had a reason/rationalization why they "had to" cheat on exams or plagiarize their papers. Basically they redefined cheating in their own minds, convinced themselves their cheating was not really cheating, and went ahead and cheated, only to claim it wasn't really cheating when caught. When asked, "And how did your cheating affect the rest of the class?" Deer in the headlights and clueless looks.
"Do unto others" is the motto.
The trick is to redefine cheating to claim cheating is not cheating, rationalize the decision to cheat, perhaps have a formal Code of Ethics suitable for framing and mailing or pronounce yourself as an ethical person. Maybe say the victims are at fault because they agreed to the contract, and finally delude oneself about what a fine person one is. Just as long everything is copasetic in one's own mind, that's all that counts--never mind the impact on society and the community or one's friends and family. If it feels good and right to you or is profitable, just do it, with nary a concern about anyone else.
I taught college for more than 3 decades, and of the student cheaters I caught, every one of them had a reason/rationalization why they "had to" cheat on exams or plagiarize their papers. Basically they redefined cheating in their own minds, convinced themselves their cheating was not really cheating, and went ahead and cheated, only to claim it wasn't really cheating when caught. When asked, "And how did your cheating affect the rest of the class?" Deer in the headlights and clueless looks.
"Do unto others" is the motto.
7
@PB: Thank you - that was well-said! My spouse also taught college for a time and was astonished at the rationalizations students made - always without concern for anyone but themselves.
The difference in marriage is that the parties are (supposedly) mature adults who are capable of understanding the nature of the commitment they are making.
Being immature is easy; society today seems to encourage, at every turn, the sort of people who live their lives in an arrested state of personal/moral development - as you said: the "if it feels good, just do it" mentality.
Mr. Wade is monetizing his own immaturity. When you're on your 3rd spouse, the common denominator to the problem is YOU. Mr. Wade would do better to seek professional counseling to find out why he has these issues - but then again, if he were well-adjusted, he'd have to stop running these websites that are making him $$ and get a real job.
The difference in marriage is that the parties are (supposedly) mature adults who are capable of understanding the nature of the commitment they are making.
Being immature is easy; society today seems to encourage, at every turn, the sort of people who live their lives in an arrested state of personal/moral development - as you said: the "if it feels good, just do it" mentality.
Mr. Wade is monetizing his own immaturity. When you're on your 3rd spouse, the common denominator to the problem is YOU. Mr. Wade would do better to seek professional counseling to find out why he has these issues - but then again, if he were well-adjusted, he'd have to stop running these websites that are making him $$ and get a real job.
3
Mr. Wade has followed the secret of many entrepreneurs in the U.S.
Think of the dumbest idea and turn it into a business.
Even better if it's immoral.
Impure insanity works!
Regardless of the ethics, having anonymous or near anonymous sex with multiple partners invites increasing communicable diseases (both known and yet-to-be-discovered) which can involve the sex organs, the mouth, the anus, the skin, etc.
When "ethical cheating" leads to more STDs, I do not like paying for it by increasing our healthcare costs.
When "ethical cheating" leads to more STDs, I do not like paying for it by increasing our healthcare costs.
1
People who are open about their affairs are much more likely to practice safer sex and far less likely to contract an STD. Google "open relationships and STDs" if you'd like to read more information of it.
Using your own argument, you should be a strong proponent of open relationships.
Using your own argument, you should be a strong proponent of open relationships.
I'm a psychologist practicing in San Francisco, and I've worked with many individuals and couples who are in open or poly relationships. These relationships absolutely can work. For some couples, it can be the thing that saves their relationship.
People vary in their suitability for sexual monogamy. Some who are less well suited to it may make a conscious decision to broaden their sexual lives. Opening up is not for everybody, but for some people, it works exceptionally well.
I don't know what "ethical cheating" is; it sounds like an oxymoron. But having an extramarital relationship with your partner's consent is not "cheating'; it's just a differently structured relationship. "Cheating" implies dishonesty.
Many commenters here offer the advice, "if you can't commit to sex with one person, don't get married." But there are numerous benefits to being married--emotionally, socially, and financially. People in open relationships recognize the value and seriousness of marriage; they just choose to structure their boundaries differently.
I'm dismayed at the tone of many of these comments. When I hear fierce, moralistic, disapproval of other peoples' consensual and healthy behavior, I have to wonder where it comes from. Why do so many people feel threatened by other peoples' choices? Live and let live.
People vary in their suitability for sexual monogamy. Some who are less well suited to it may make a conscious decision to broaden their sexual lives. Opening up is not for everybody, but for some people, it works exceptionally well.
I don't know what "ethical cheating" is; it sounds like an oxymoron. But having an extramarital relationship with your partner's consent is not "cheating'; it's just a differently structured relationship. "Cheating" implies dishonesty.
Many commenters here offer the advice, "if you can't commit to sex with one person, don't get married." But there are numerous benefits to being married--emotionally, socially, and financially. People in open relationships recognize the value and seriousness of marriage; they just choose to structure their boundaries differently.
I'm dismayed at the tone of many of these comments. When I hear fierce, moralistic, disapproval of other peoples' consensual and healthy behavior, I have to wonder where it comes from. Why do so many people feel threatened by other peoples' choices? Live and let live.
114
Dr. J.: You have an interesting way with words. People who get married are promising to be faithful to one another. If they're not prepared to honor that, the answer (as so many have pointed out) is NOT to get married. Or, if one must have sex outside of marriage, then get divorced. Yes, there are emotional, financial and social costs (and benefits) to being married and also to being single/divorced. Make a choice and accept what it entails.
If you've promised to be faithful to another by getting married, then wanting "out" of your vows unilaterally IS cheating - you can call it anything you want to try to pretty up the stink, but it IS cheating, period. You know why "cheating implies dishonesty"? Because CHEATING IS DISHONEST, that's why. It makes a mockery of taking vows to another person, and it disrespects that person's value and needs.
So maybe all that "fierce, moralistic" disapproval you're hearing on here has to do with comments made by people who feel fiercely about the morality of cheating!
Those you are "successfully" treating who are not "suitable" for monogamy should not be in a monogamous relationship, as they are in some deep psychological way not ready to make that commitment, or perhaps they are trying to "fit it" by marrying when they ought to acknowledge that this is not for them. The idea that cheating "saves" their relationship is ridiculous (as in Vietnam: "We had to destroy the village to save it.").
If you've promised to be faithful to another by getting married, then wanting "out" of your vows unilaterally IS cheating - you can call it anything you want to try to pretty up the stink, but it IS cheating, period. You know why "cheating implies dishonesty"? Because CHEATING IS DISHONEST, that's why. It makes a mockery of taking vows to another person, and it disrespects that person's value and needs.
So maybe all that "fierce, moralistic" disapproval you're hearing on here has to do with comments made by people who feel fiercely about the morality of cheating!
Those you are "successfully" treating who are not "suitable" for monogamy should not be in a monogamous relationship, as they are in some deep psychological way not ready to make that commitment, or perhaps they are trying to "fit it" by marrying when they ought to acknowledge that this is not for them. The idea that cheating "saves" their relationship is ridiculous (as in Vietnam: "We had to destroy the village to save it.").
5
Why do you feel threatened by other peopl's opinions.
1
L, I believe you completely missed the doctor's point and are the epitome of the kind of person the doctor was referring to in the last paragraph.
A marriage can be defined however the marrying couple wish to define it. It is none of your business.
A marriage can be defined however the marrying couple wish to define it. It is none of your business.
2
If you are married or in a relationship and you feel driven to cheat, get a divorce or break up before you do so, then it won't be cheating and you will be free to do as you wish. If you cheat while you are married or in a relationship, the person with whom you are cheating, (if they know that you are not single) will have proof of your true character and, if smart, will walk away.
3
This article mixes two very different type of events. If you tell your spouse upfront and get his/her permission it's not "cheating" at all. If you use a secret credit card to sign up for Ashley Madison and subsequently lie to him/her about your whereabouts etc., then there SHOULD be absolutely zero sympathy when hackers post your name on the internet, you are simply reaping what you have sown. I cannot fathom "sharing" my spouse with anyone else, but if you and your spoouse are comfortable with it, more power to you.
6
Good grief. If you're in an open marriage, it's not cheating. If you aren't, then no. There is no ethical cheating.
54
To paraphrase Erich Fromm: "Love isn't a feeling - it’s the work of contributing to someone else’s spiritual growth."
How does adultery accomplish that?
Read the tragically sad case of Simone de Beauvoir and her "open" relationship with the selfish, unfeeling Jean Paul Sartre to realize the deep pain he caused her with his other lovers.
When someone asked her if her subjugation to Jean-Paul Sartre in her personal life was at odds with her feminist theories she said, “Well, I just don’t give a d--n ... I’m sorry to disappoint all the feminists, but you can say it’s too bad so many of them live only in theory instead of in real life.”
And more messed up lives than you can ever envision.
One women told of having an open relationship.
She admitted ending up feeling like an empty shell of a zombie.
If their is no love nor fear of God nor commitment then people run after the latest insanity of how to conduct oneself morally—sexual or otherwise.
He has "progressive" views about monogamy? Then I have progressive views about unicorns. I don't believe in them.
Wade doesn't believe in monogamy. That's not progressive or more enlightened. That's his business plan -- selling people on swinging.
It's one thing to swing openly from the start -- it's quite another to thrust this upon a spouse who entered into what they thought was a monogamous arrangement. The offer is more ultimatum than it is sexual sophistication.
Wade doesn't believe in monogamy. That's not progressive or more enlightened. That's his business plan -- selling people on swinging.
It's one thing to swing openly from the start -- it's quite another to thrust this upon a spouse who entered into what they thought was a monogamous arrangement. The offer is more ultimatum than it is sexual sophistication.
4
Remarkable all the angry comments shaming people who aren't desiring monogamous relationships.
Makes me wonder how many of the shamers actually have something to hide - their own affairs or perhaps a burning desire to have such an affair?
What else would produce such table-pounding rage against people looking to be poly-amorous.
Makes me wonder how many of the shamers actually have something to hide - their own affairs or perhaps a burning desire to have such an affair?
What else would produce such table-pounding rage against people looking to be poly-amorous.
11
I think you're hearing more and different than is there. Most of us are more bemused than angry. We think it's not bright at all to pretend to "ethical cheating", and actually I imagine we have no "burning desires" at stake at all in this. I wonder why you have such a virulent reaction to mere disagreement...
5
No, this isn't about monogamy. It is about trust and fidelity within marriage. If someone wants multiple relationships-- no problem. But don't play games with people in some "hierarchy." Oh this is my wife, and her is one of my girlfriends, and my boyfriend. It isn't healthy for any of the people involved, and its horrible for their kids.
@Charles Lynn: Hey, if you want to be poly-amorous, go right ahead. I have no rage or anger against you. But if you are committed to being poly-amorous, then don't get married. So simple!
Calling others "shamers" who may have "something to hide" is a classic point of view frequently held by those who are feeling guilty about how they themselves are behaving.
Calling others "shamers" who may have "something to hide" is a classic point of view frequently held by those who are feeling guilty about how they themselves are behaving.
4
"Ethical cheating" is, if anything, an oxymoron.
4
Many commenters are writing along the lines of, if everybody agrees, then no problem. But ethics is a matter not only of what people agree to, but what is in fact harmful or not harmful to us. Suppose my spouse thinks of herself as open-minded, but in fact would be devastated. If I enter into the relationship, wouldn't I be breaching my duty not to cause harm to her? Suppose that if the other relationship works then I will be likely to lose interest in my spouse, and my spouse doesn't know that. If I know it, am I obligated to tell her before she consents? Suppose I have never considered it, but it's true? There is a lot more going on here that is ethically relevant than the simple fact of agreement or consent.
5
I don't see how it's cheating if it's ethical. What are the ways that cheating can be unethical?
Well, it can be wrongfully deceptive if your partner thinks you're only having sex with them and you're actually having sex with someone else. Deception can be especially bad in sexual relationships because it can undermine consent. Lying to someone in order to make them want to have sex with you when they otherwise would not if they knew the truth undermines consent in a relationship.
It can also be a kind of promise-breaking. You might think that most relationships are implied or explicit promises not to have sex with someone else. This has to be generally understood by both parties, and it's possible to have relationships on different terms. Note that breaking a promise not to have sex with someone else is not quite the same thing as deceiving someone about it. If you call your partner and tell her that you're about to sleep with someone else, then you're not really being deceptive, but you may be breaking a promise if you have a mono-amorous relationship.
And then there's exploitation. You might, if you have disproportionate power in a relationship, be able to extract a concession from your partner to agree to allow you to have sex with someone outside of your relationship. Say you're the only income earner, and you know your partner couldn't leave you, so has to accept the relationship on whatever terms you'll accept it. That can also be a kind of wrongful cheating.
Well, it can be wrongfully deceptive if your partner thinks you're only having sex with them and you're actually having sex with someone else. Deception can be especially bad in sexual relationships because it can undermine consent. Lying to someone in order to make them want to have sex with you when they otherwise would not if they knew the truth undermines consent in a relationship.
It can also be a kind of promise-breaking. You might think that most relationships are implied or explicit promises not to have sex with someone else. This has to be generally understood by both parties, and it's possible to have relationships on different terms. Note that breaking a promise not to have sex with someone else is not quite the same thing as deceiving someone about it. If you call your partner and tell her that you're about to sleep with someone else, then you're not really being deceptive, but you may be breaking a promise if you have a mono-amorous relationship.
And then there's exploitation. You might, if you have disproportionate power in a relationship, be able to extract a concession from your partner to agree to allow you to have sex with someone outside of your relationship. Say you're the only income earner, and you know your partner couldn't leave you, so has to accept the relationship on whatever terms you'll accept it. That can also be a kind of wrongful cheating.
3
Why are all the men and women featured in the photo white? Do only white people engage in cheating, leave alone ethical?
2
Ethical Cheating? There is no such thing! Cheating is cheating. It cannot be ever ethical! Cheating is negative. Period. Ethical is positive.Period. And never the twain shall meet. Why don't we just leave everything personal, personal ? What people do or not do is their own business! Every action of an individual is viewed through sex-driven glasses. People have become voyeuristic deriving perverse pleasure, their fantasies being played out. Polygamous, monogamous, polyandry and whatever else, it's not our business as long as decorum is maintained in public
All of these sites are very "me" oriented. IMHO marriages only work when both partners put their spouse first. How can you focus on your mate when you're trolling the Internet looking for the next hookup? I can't imaging watching my husband get ready for a date with another woman. I certainly wouldn't respect a man who'd sit at home and wait for me while I was out with another man.
4
Is there such a Thing as Ethical Cheating" Well No there is not. Stay single
12
If I am honest with my partner, it's nobody else's business. BUT if the person I'm interested in has a partner that they won't tell? Then absolutely not.
8
While Mr. Wade views his website as a progressive look at the future of relationships, I don't find it to be progressive at all. In a healthy poly or non-monogamous relationship there should be no "cheating" at all. These relationships are defined by their honesty and openness, even when feelings of jealousy can and may arise. But no "cheating," even labeled as "ethical" is involved.
I fear that Openminded.com, with a majority of male users and essays titled "How to cheat on your wife" will not cater to people looking to seek healthy poly relationships, but to unsatisfied married men looking to cheat without the guilt. It ignores a history of infidelity in which male sexuality was enforced by entitlement to sex outside of a marriage and female sexuality was devalued and ignored by having to accept a partner's cheating.
I fear that Openminded.com, with a majority of male users and essays titled "How to cheat on your wife" will not cater to people looking to seek healthy poly relationships, but to unsatisfied married men looking to cheat without the guilt. It ignores a history of infidelity in which male sexuality was enforced by entitlement to sex outside of a marriage and female sexuality was devalued and ignored by having to accept a partner's cheating.
21
Having "progressive views about monagamy" is simply a euphemism for sexism and a politically correct way for men to maintain their dominant gender roles. For example, if you look at whatsyourprice.com there is a glaring inequality based on age old gender roles: men are able to "buy" dates from women but not the reverse. Despite the disclaimers on the site, this seems like prostitution by another name.
Let me know when men with "with progressive view about monogamy" stop buying access to women. Or, when women can buy access to men as easily as men can buy access to women. Until then, let's call these websites out for what they are and acknowledge that America is oppressive to women just like all of the "third world" countries we complain about. We've just sugar coated it better so that we can pretend like it's something women want.
And before anyone attacks me personally, please know that I'm a heterosexual, happily married monogamous man who happens to also be a feminist because he realized that treating women as somehow being less human than men is wrong.
Let me know when men with "with progressive view about monogamy" stop buying access to women. Or, when women can buy access to men as easily as men can buy access to women. Until then, let's call these websites out for what they are and acknowledge that America is oppressive to women just like all of the "third world" countries we complain about. We've just sugar coated it better so that we can pretend like it's something women want.
And before anyone attacks me personally, please know that I'm a heterosexual, happily married monogamous man who happens to also be a feminist because he realized that treating women as somehow being less human than men is wrong.
39
@C.M.
Great post. Bravo.
Great post. Bravo.
Women can decide to be poly as well. Don’t be so patronising as to declare that women don’t have this kind of sexual autonomy if they want it. Indeed, all the poly women I’ve dated have done it of their own free will, and I’ve never been their only partner. Polyamory is as egalitarian and feminist as the people in it are. I don’t deny the existence of a patriarchy or that in general, women are denied sexual agency, but it doesn't necessarily follow that open relationships are oppressive to women and solely about male satisfaction. Indeed, I would argue there is a myth of insatiable
Male sexuality and there are many women that want open relationships to satisfy themselves.
Male sexuality and there are many women that want open relationships to satisfy themselves.
7
My father was married five times and was cheating on each fiancee up until and after they were married. This lasted until he was diagnosed with Alzheimers and finally had an excuse. If you were one on the four children he had (that we know of) during those high flying days, it was a nightmare. His wives didn't have a great time either, but at least they knew what they were getting themselves into. If you are going to cheat DON'T HAVE KIDS!!! PERIOD.
19
@Don and Jeff
You speak with authority. If only your voice could echo and carry across the land.
You speak with authority. If only your voice could echo and carry across the land.
1
It's called an open marriage and it's ethical...but only if both parties agree and without power imbalance or coercion.
11
Good distinctions made. Without power imbalance or coercion. But I just don't know of any relationships that don't have a bit of both.
3
In Denvervin the progressive Era, Judge Ben Lindsay advocated companionate marriage for trial periods of a few years. A couple could choose to renew, or not.
Mr Wade epitomizes an entrepreneurial narcissism that is in line with a hedonistic culture in which some individuals bathe in the glory of their own egos. One wonders if such people are all take and no give.
Mr Wade epitomizes an entrepreneurial narcissism that is in line with a hedonistic culture in which some individuals bathe in the glory of their own egos. One wonders if such people are all take and no give.
1
@rini10: Yeah, it's all fun & games until someone gets hurt.
1
Is there such a thing as Ethical Cheating? Yes, of course. You find it right next to the Calorie-Free Cheeseburger and the No-Risk Real Estate Investment.
59
Truth is still stranger than fiction….who knew the academic origins of the internet would lead to this. What is amazing is the fact that Wade can actually get a date…or marry.
“What do you do for a living?”
“I help people cheat on their spouses.”
All reasonable people, exit, stage left.
Cheating will continue completely independent of this or any website as it has for millennia.
“What do you do for a living?”
“I help people cheat on their spouses.”
All reasonable people, exit, stage left.
Cheating will continue completely independent of this or any website as it has for millennia.
13
As a widow, I find this whole thing rather tasteless. If you are not interested in monogamy, then why both with the trouble and expense of marriage? There are many more reasonable options available. One could cohabit or simply remain single. These seem more than reasonable under the circumstances. Open marriage, at least to me, appears to be one signpost on the the long road to divorce. For better or worse, this arrangement often becomes unstable, as one partner becomes resentful over time. Which begs the question, why marry if you still want to date? Isn't that the reason people marry, because they want to stop dating?
26
I’ve been in my relationship 19 years, and it’s been open for longer than it was monogamous. Does it seem I’m on the road to divorce to you?
Having a partner that you come home to, have cats or children with, plan for retirement with…those are all things that many people want to do whether they’re monogamous or not.
Just because you don’t get it doesn’t mean it doesn’t work or can’t work. The shortest relationship I’ve ever had was six weeks long, and the longest―concurrent with my 19 relationship―was five years. I think I’m a lot better at commitment than most.
Having a partner that you come home to, have cats or children with, plan for retirement with…those are all things that many people want to do whether they’re monogamous or not.
Just because you don’t get it doesn’t mean it doesn’t work or can’t work. The shortest relationship I’ve ever had was six weeks long, and the longest―concurrent with my 19 relationship―was five years. I think I’m a lot better at commitment than most.
8
You nailed it...
Having been single, married, a co-habitator, a cheater, a serial dater & finally an abstainer, you are 100% right..If you don't want to stop fooling around, why get married? It is ridiculous and will lead to heartburn and acid reflux.
Having been single, married, a co-habitator, a cheater, a serial dater & finally an abstainer, you are 100% right..If you don't want to stop fooling around, why get married? It is ridiculous and will lead to heartburn and acid reflux.
6
Probably....taxes.
1
The last time I checked the animal kingdom, monogamy had nothing to do with religion. Or did I miss that church for geese...
As an earlier commenter with professional qualifications observed, true intimacy can only be achieved within a monogamous relationship. Not everyone is capable of or even desires that sort of intimacy, which requires more than a virtual chastity belt. It requires genuine love, which is inherently putting the needs of others above one's momentary desires (which are not necessarily sexual). It involves seeing a future rather than the tunnel vision of present concerns. It requires accepting the love of the other person.
Many people who fail at marriage are desperate to connect with another person but cannot break out of themselves long enough to do so; they keep imagining the next relationship will be the magic one with the perfect partner who "understands" them.
One of the most moving of Greek myths--from a people whose gods were especially profligate--was about the elderly couple who unknowingly hosted Apollo. He asked them what gift he could grant them, and they asked never to be separated, even by death. The Greeks recognized both the worst in us, and the best...
As an earlier commenter with professional qualifications observed, true intimacy can only be achieved within a monogamous relationship. Not everyone is capable of or even desires that sort of intimacy, which requires more than a virtual chastity belt. It requires genuine love, which is inherently putting the needs of others above one's momentary desires (which are not necessarily sexual). It involves seeing a future rather than the tunnel vision of present concerns. It requires accepting the love of the other person.
Many people who fail at marriage are desperate to connect with another person but cannot break out of themselves long enough to do so; they keep imagining the next relationship will be the magic one with the perfect partner who "understands" them.
One of the most moving of Greek myths--from a people whose gods were especially profligate--was about the elderly couple who unknowingly hosted Apollo. He asked them what gift he could grant them, and they asked never to be separated, even by death. The Greeks recognized both the worst in us, and the best...
48
"...true intimacy can only be achieved within a monogamous relationship" is a slogan. It has no foundation in research, or factual data. It is your belief. There are, believe it or not, other humans on Earth, who have had experiences beyond those you appear to be comfortable with. That doesn't mean they don't exist, or that they cannot achieve similar (or possibly greater) depths of intimacy.
4
@SCA
Great post. Very perceptive and well-written.
Great post. Very perceptive and well-written.
1
SCA, you need to learn more about our non-human neighbors, including geese. They may keep the same mate for many years, but in that time, both goose and gander will wander. DNA tests on the nestlings of many birds find that one or the other parent is not represented in all the offspring, indicating that some extra-pair sex is taking place. Surely "genuine" love and "true intimacy" are not bound irrevocably to monogamy or to any rigid ideology. People are made up of more than their hormones and gonads.
1
Are we covering a dating site for animals or human beings? Are we gravitating towards our animal instincts..We spend thousands of hours looking and securing a mate, only to unravel our union at our lack of variety and choices. Its humorous to know how people value science over many other perspectives..I think having less choices wins in this case..
I too am surprised by the hostile tone of these comments. I am not a psychologist, but it might be because this idea pushes some buttons for these people--they are very threatened by the idea. I am intrigued because what people now call polyamory seems to be a reality of the human condition. So many artists and people who have done something to change the world (think Martin Luther King) had relationships outside of marriage. Is this a fatal flaw that means they deserve no respect?
No matter how many people see marriage counselors, sex outside of marriage is not going to be something that goes away--poof.
No matter how many people see marriage counselors, sex outside of marriage is not going to be something that goes away--poof.
9
“Monogamy in the traditional sense is not working for the majority of us,” said Mr. Wade, whose current wife is his third.
Then why does your sleazy site only have 150,000 users?
Then why does your sleazy site only have 150,000 users?
6
I'm not married, but at this point of my life I wouldn't have a problem with outsourcing the sex portion of it.
1
.
it's all about disclosure and consent
if you disclose, BEFORE you get involved, that you are going to seek other relationships
and
your partner CONSENTS,
then no problem
.....
if either of these two conditions are not met,
then that's a problem
.
it's all about disclosure and consent
if you disclose, BEFORE you get involved, that you are going to seek other relationships
and
your partner CONSENTS,
then no problem
.....
if either of these two conditions are not met,
then that's a problem
.
6
There's a huge difference between advise and consent. Wade suggests that merely informing one's spouse of one's plans is sufficient to qualify as ethical behavior.
If the spouse entered into the marriage on that assumption, fine. But if the spouse signed up for the traditional "forsaking all others" deal, she - yes, of course, she - must consent, without coercion, in order for his behavior to be ethical.
If the spouse entered into the marriage on that assumption, fine. But if the spouse signed up for the traditional "forsaking all others" deal, she - yes, of course, she - must consent, without coercion, in order for his behavior to be ethical.
9
Wow. Lot's of emotional reactivity on this topic. I think Mr. Tom has some psychological issues with bonding in relationship. To use the term "ethical cheating" for mutually agreed upon non-monogamy sets up an oxymoronic framing to an issue that requires a lot more thinking and maturity to resolve for each couple. It introduces a "naughty" element and frames it in a kind of adolescent rejection of traditional values. I recommend Dan Savage's concept of "Monogamish" for those couples who want to carefully and mutually consider venturing past the bounds of traditional monogamy and to really do so ethically.
25
It is Mr. Wade the founder and owner of the OpenMinded.com website who used the term "ethical cheating," which I agree is an oxymoron.
Also, I think the "emotional reactivity" to the topic is neither a bad thing nor is it directed at the idea of loving couples setting honest and open terms for their relationship that expand it beyond the traditional monogamous framework. But, these are not the couples Mr. Wade seems to be marketing to since what they are doing is by definition not cheating. Or, perhaps Mr. Wade just does not understand his target audience. If he wants to help poly-amorous couples meet like-minded couples, great, then drop the whole "ethical cheating" nonsense and creepy and sexist articles like "How to Cheat on Your Wife."
Mr. Wade seems to be serving up reconstituted Ashley Madison model that is actually more callous than the original version. Rather, than sneaking around, we just have the blunt "Hey, I'm going to cheat on you, so deal with it," direction. This is certainly not ethical behavior.
Also, I think the "emotional reactivity" to the topic is neither a bad thing nor is it directed at the idea of loving couples setting honest and open terms for their relationship that expand it beyond the traditional monogamous framework. But, these are not the couples Mr. Wade seems to be marketing to since what they are doing is by definition not cheating. Or, perhaps Mr. Wade just does not understand his target audience. If he wants to help poly-amorous couples meet like-minded couples, great, then drop the whole "ethical cheating" nonsense and creepy and sexist articles like "How to Cheat on Your Wife."
Mr. Wade seems to be serving up reconstituted Ashley Madison model that is actually more callous than the original version. Rather, than sneaking around, we just have the blunt "Hey, I'm going to cheat on you, so deal with it," direction. This is certainly not ethical behavior.
1
Some people are happier single and that's fine. They can negotiate the level of commitment or non-commitment with those they date, and if they are honest and open it's likely ethical. But alot of folks find they are not happy, or one of them is not happy with that. I would not be satisfied with such a relationship and wasn't even when I was single.
Marriage is not a place for such relationships. But for those singles who really like such freedom, a place to mert those similarly inclined might be good, but the attraction of dangerous creeps seems very real.
Marriage is not a place for such relationships. But for those singles who really like such freedom, a place to mert those similarly inclined might be good, but the attraction of dangerous creeps seems very real.
5
Marriage is defined by mutual agreement. If both parties agree to an open or any other arrangement (including a relationship in which they each do whatever they want, independent of each other), then fine--as long as they're both working towards the success of that agreement, and their mutual happiness within it.
But one party cannot say (or act without saying), "I've changed the terms of our agreement," because both of them have to agree to any change. A unilateral change is not ethical.
But one party cannot say (or act without saying), "I've changed the terms of our agreement," because both of them have to agree to any change. A unilateral change is not ethical.
21
We've been married for 34 years and I've never cheated. Yet, what do I know? Just as there seems to be many different sexes, there's also probably many different definitions of marriage.
5
It isn't fair to the "third" party even if they agree to be in this position.
1
Where do I even start? Consensual cheating has been a part of many marriages. With one spouse simply looking the other way (historically women) due to other fringe benefits marriage brought them. Others have been more explicit about their endeavors and even mutually acceptance - the concept of the open marriage. The most successful ones though have been done with a tight set of rules and boundaries - ranging from STDs (STIs) to raising kids to financial matters to the primary bedroom being off limits. The swinger lifestyle has also contributed to the "joint cheating" by couples.
Quite frankly though usual when you get deep you usually find a skewed power dynamic and the fact that one person wants the "open mind" more than the other.
I am pleased though that this site has come up and is encouraging open communication between couples (or hopefully it is). Sometimes just sharing that you want to "cheat" can lead down interesting avenues of discussion to finding out what is going on between two people - in and out of the bedroom.
For the 10% who I am convinced are wired to cheat - this maybe the ultimate way of coming out of the closet. Admit it. And then see if what they bring to the table in a relationship is enough to allow them to be who they are - in an open and honest fashion.
Quite frankly though usual when you get deep you usually find a skewed power dynamic and the fact that one person wants the "open mind" more than the other.
I am pleased though that this site has come up and is encouraging open communication between couples (or hopefully it is). Sometimes just sharing that you want to "cheat" can lead down interesting avenues of discussion to finding out what is going on between two people - in and out of the bedroom.
For the 10% who I am convinced are wired to cheat - this maybe the ultimate way of coming out of the closet. Admit it. And then see if what they bring to the table in a relationship is enough to allow them to be who they are - in an open and honest fashion.
2
'...With one spouse simply looking the other way (historically women) due to other fringe benefits marriage brought them...'
You mean the 'fringe benefit' of not being thrown out on the streets with children to starve to death?
That 'fringe benefit'?
Because until a few generations ago and still in much of the world, women have no other options, outside of taking whatever abuse a man decides to visit upon them.
Interesting that when women have financial independence, many choose not to marry.
Wonder why that is?
You mean the 'fringe benefit' of not being thrown out on the streets with children to starve to death?
That 'fringe benefit'?
Because until a few generations ago and still in much of the world, women have no other options, outside of taking whatever abuse a man decides to visit upon them.
Interesting that when women have financial independence, many choose not to marry.
Wonder why that is?
16
It's funny how people unable to control themselves still often badly want the status of marriage. How about having the courage to say you don't feel in yourself the capacity to remain faithful, and therefore do not want to solemnize your relationship legally?
Perhaps many young people today are smarter and better than their elders. I know plenty of young unmarried couples who have not sanctified their unions with anything other than genuine love and commitment and the expectation that they do not need a piece of paper to enforce the idea of fidelity for them. They behave rightly towards each other because they want to...
Perhaps many young people today are smarter and better than their elders. I know plenty of young unmarried couples who have not sanctified their unions with anything other than genuine love and commitment and the expectation that they do not need a piece of paper to enforce the idea of fidelity for them. They behave rightly towards each other because they want to...
11
Agreed that commitment and fidelity can take place absent a marriage license. But having experienced that in my younger years, I'd say that marriage confers a degree of permanence and commitment that cohabiting cannot.
Marriage delivers a significantly better end game for those who desire a lifelong commitment to a companion. Whether that marriage is monogamous, open or something else requires genuine agreement between the partners without coercion and ideally before the fact.
Marriage delivers a significantly better end game for those who desire a lifelong commitment to a companion. Whether that marriage is monogamous, open or something else requires genuine agreement between the partners without coercion and ideally before the fact.
3
I imagine you have not spoken to many long-married couples or been in a long marriage yourself.
There are many, many reasons to stay in a marriage that is partially good, or hardly good at all but locked in by family, community, responsibilities, etc.
Telling such couples to grin and bear it - perhaps for 60 years - is cruel and unnecessary.
Extramarital sex isn't just about having sexual diversity and 'thrills' - though I'm sure plenty of people stray for just those reasons.
Spouses having an agreement together could solve a lot of problems and be nobody's business but their own.
There are many, many reasons to stay in a marriage that is partially good, or hardly good at all but locked in by family, community, responsibilities, etc.
Telling such couples to grin and bear it - perhaps for 60 years - is cruel and unnecessary.
Extramarital sex isn't just about having sexual diversity and 'thrills' - though I'm sure plenty of people stray for just those reasons.
Spouses having an agreement together could solve a lot of problems and be nobody's business but their own.
4
Whatever couples decide works for them is their business and no one else's.
9
There is nothing sacred or special about monogamy. Marriage was established as a paternity and inheritance issue. If a married couple wants to have an open relationship and all parties are in agreement, then there shouldn't be a problem with an entrepreneur facilitating their lifestyle. If polyamory is not for you, then you don't have to do it. But don't try to impose your personal morality on others with different views where no one is harmed.
61
The key is, "all parties in agreement." Mr. Wade suggested that "men disclose their intent to their wives" before they "date." "Disclosing your intent" is very different from a pre-arranged agreement. This is like the bank robber telling the bank, "Ok, now I'm going to rob you," and that makes the robbery ethical.
13
Wow! Most of the comments so far have been really negatively critical of Mr. Wade, who after all is a entrepreneur seeking to profit from one of the most basic needs of men and women: sex and some semblance of emotional connection. Most people who seek sex and companionship outside of marriage do so because their partners, for some reasons, cannot provide one or both of these needs. Many are reluctant to or simply cannot divorce their spouse due socially imposed expectations and rules (many are unrealistic and costly). Thus, extra marital affairs are inevitable. Mr. Wade's website is just an internet business just like any other internet business; it is for profit. If Mr. Wade does not do it. Somebody else will. Let's not judge Mr. Wade. Instead, judge the increasingly sterile and judgemental society in which we live.
35
There are also socially imposed rules and expectations about affairs. So ok to break those? Just not the one about divorce? Way to cherry-pick. Like the people who won't get a divorce, but will hire a hit man. Better widowed than divorced. It's never about the morality or the social expectations. It's always about the money.
2
Open marriage is understandable.
Deception is not.
Deception is not.
4
Wow, Paul, your logic is a bit faulty. The fact that something is done for profit neither removes it from ethical considerations nor sets it beyond judgment. Big tobacco companies and arms dealers are also in their line of business for profit. Also, the fact that someone else may or may not pursue a business model if you choose not to do so, does not make the business model either a good idea or moral thing to do. Finally, you seem to be confusing desires with needs. No one needs to have an affair, though some people may desire to do so.
If you are unhappy in your relationship, then first put in the hard work to figure out your own issues, where 99% of most unhappiness comes from, then put in the hard work to figure out the remaining issues with your partner. After you do the work, if you come to realize your relationship is no longer viable, then end it as respectfully and compassionately as possibly and move on with your life. As for "ethical cheating," as others have pointed out, it is an oxymoron. If after an open and honest discussion, you and your partner have both fully agreed to have a non-monogamous relationship, then you are not cheating. But, if you are simply trying to bully or manipulate your partner into agreeing to new terms for your relationship that only fulfill your desires, then you are not being ethical.
The real problem with a our society is neither that it is "sterile" or judgmental, but rather that it is increasingly selfish and decadent.
If you are unhappy in your relationship, then first put in the hard work to figure out your own issues, where 99% of most unhappiness comes from, then put in the hard work to figure out the remaining issues with your partner. After you do the work, if you come to realize your relationship is no longer viable, then end it as respectfully and compassionately as possibly and move on with your life. As for "ethical cheating," as others have pointed out, it is an oxymoron. If after an open and honest discussion, you and your partner have both fully agreed to have a non-monogamous relationship, then you are not cheating. But, if you are simply trying to bully or manipulate your partner into agreeing to new terms for your relationship that only fulfill your desires, then you are not being ethical.
The real problem with a our society is neither that it is "sterile" or judgmental, but rather that it is increasingly selfish and decadent.
1
This guy sounds like a real catch, a three time loser who projects his failed relationships into the generality that monogamy doesn't work.
Taking dating advice from him is like taking Mark Zuckerberg's advice on friendship; it can't lead anywhere good.
Taking dating advice from him is like taking Mark Zuckerberg's advice on friendship; it can't lead anywhere good.
40
'...Also provided are primers to help newbies, including an essay entitled, “How to Cheat on Your Wife.”...'
But no “How to Cheat on Your Husband”?
Mr Wade seems to think that women never cheat.
Interesting.
Good luck to him on his third marriage.
But no “How to Cheat on Your Husband”?
Mr Wade seems to think that women never cheat.
Interesting.
Good luck to him on his third marriage.
55
I think Mr. Wade is going about this all wrong. If he wants buy-in, he needs to avoid words like 'cheating' or 'unfaithful'. For in open relationships, at least imho, so long as it's all out in the open, how can it be considered either?
Monogamy for the most part, comes from religious directives. Outside of religion, some people may be inclined towards monogamy and others not. And who is anyone to say that what works for another couple or individual, is 'wrong'? So long as we are talking about consenting ADULTS, ain't nobody's business but my own. ;-)
Monogamy for the most part, comes from religious directives. Outside of religion, some people may be inclined towards monogamy and others not. And who is anyone to say that what works for another couple or individual, is 'wrong'? So long as we are talking about consenting ADULTS, ain't nobody's business but my own. ;-)
20
Its mostly a male thing. Having said that, I've never met a male who would be okay with his 'woman' getting it on with another man. Get real people.
7
'...This involves telling a spouse that you are going to be unfaithful, or including the spouse in new, outside-the-marriage relationships, he said...'
Then it is not 'cheating'.
Cheating is when one spouse is monogamous, while the other is not, keeping that fact to themselves.
It has typically been heterosexual men who cheat. They do so because they believe they alone 'deserve' it and as a way to control their spouse's sexuality, taking for themselves what they do not permit their wife.
It is, like all deception, unethical. It is also the height of narcissism: Male cheaters cannot even entertain the notion that their wives could be sexually bored with their perfect selves.
There is a huge difference between being in an open relationship and deceiving your spouse and the two should not be equated.
Because it is the lying that destroys relationships, much more than the sex, as once a person is a known liar, nothing they say will ever be believed again.
Nor should it be.
Then it is not 'cheating'.
Cheating is when one spouse is monogamous, while the other is not, keeping that fact to themselves.
It has typically been heterosexual men who cheat. They do so because they believe they alone 'deserve' it and as a way to control their spouse's sexuality, taking for themselves what they do not permit their wife.
It is, like all deception, unethical. It is also the height of narcissism: Male cheaters cannot even entertain the notion that their wives could be sexually bored with their perfect selves.
There is a huge difference between being in an open relationship and deceiving your spouse and the two should not be equated.
Because it is the lying that destroys relationships, much more than the sex, as once a person is a known liar, nothing they say will ever be believed again.
Nor should it be.
28
Women cheat too. They just don't get caught as often. So, their lies aren't exposed.
4
There is nothing new under the sun. What the author is proposing already exists. It is called a brothel.
10
Being in an open, poly, or explicitly nonmonogamous relationship is not "cheating." (I mean, you still could cheat by breaking the rules of your own relationship, but it's not inherently cheating just because it's not monogamy.) "Ethical cheating" is an oxymoron; if it's ethical it's not cheating and if it's cheating then it's not ethical. Polyamory or an open marriage where both parties are on board, they decided this together or went into the relationship with that understanding from the start, and they stick to the rules they set up for their own relationship is not "cheating," it's being ethically nonmonogamous.
But then, based on the description of the "How to Cheat on Your Wife" primer, it doesn't sound like Mr. Wade is actually recommending being ethical at all. Presenting your spouse with "Hey, so monogamy isn't working for me, and I found this dating site that's all about 'ethical' cheating, so, be OK with that or divorce me" isn't ethical! Presenting someone with a fait accompli that destroys their marriage as they (presumably) want it is not cool. That needs to come up in some context other than having already signed up for a website and involve an actual conversation. Just telling your spouse you're going to sleep with someone else (if that's not what they want out of their marriage to you) doesn't make it ethical.
But then, based on the description of the "How to Cheat on Your Wife" primer, it doesn't sound like Mr. Wade is actually recommending being ethical at all. Presenting your spouse with "Hey, so monogamy isn't working for me, and I found this dating site that's all about 'ethical' cheating, so, be OK with that or divorce me" isn't ethical! Presenting someone with a fait accompli that destroys their marriage as they (presumably) want it is not cool. That needs to come up in some context other than having already signed up for a website and involve an actual conversation. Just telling your spouse you're going to sleep with someone else (if that's not what they want out of their marriage to you) doesn't make it ethical.
180
Worse. He is recommending that men cheat on their wives, based on the 'How to Cheat on Your Wife' primer, as if all women must be happy with monogamy.
And it is indeed 'ethical' to have an open marriage, as long as both people agree to it.
And it is indeed 'ethical' to have an open marriage, as long as both people agree to it.
2
This is so spot on. Well said.
Every marriage should be term-limited. Say, about 24 months. Then after a year of separation either renew or move on.
4
Or don't get married.
I'm trying to picture the tension and insecurity every two years as the kids try to guess if mommy and daddy are planning to re-up.
I'm trying to picture the tension and insecurity every two years as the kids try to guess if mommy and daddy are planning to re-up.
1
@Willie
Ah, commitment. I guess we should do away with the Long Term Capital Gains Tax next.
Ah, commitment. I guess we should do away with the Long Term Capital Gains Tax next.
2
Cheating is ethical if you know your spouse would rather not know and would rather you cheat than leave.
If women would give up the unrealistic standard of monogamy, society could dismantle many of the patriarchal constructs it uses to even the score.
I say this as a feminist.
If women would give up the unrealistic standard of monogamy, society could dismantle many of the patriarchal constructs it uses to even the score.
I say this as a feminist.
10
"Cheating is ethical if you know your spouse would rather not know and would rather you cheat than leave."
Is this you purporting to know what your spouse thinks/wants, or have they expressly communicated this to you? For if it's the former, me thinks you are simply trying to rationalize your own (in this type of instance, unethical cheating) behavior.
Is this you purporting to know what your spouse thinks/wants, or have they expressly communicated this to you? For if it's the former, me thinks you are simply trying to rationalize your own (in this type of instance, unethical cheating) behavior.
21
What happens to the kids of these families? What about their trust in a family relationship?
15
Why do you think only men would "cheat" in this way? If men could get over our jealousy and let our wives have a little fun on the side, everybody might be happier. I mean, if we're going to be feminist about it.
14
There is no such thing as "ethical" cheating. Prearranged rules surrounding sex and love outside of a primary relationship are just on the spectrum of non-monogamy. If you follow those rules, great. If you don't, it's still cheating (even if your arrangement include sleeping with other people) and a major event in a relationship. Either way violating your partner's trust is still unethical and relabeling people's mutual agreements about ther own sex lives as 'ethical cheating' just further stigmatizes those who decide a non-monagamous relationship is for them.
34
Very well said.
"Monogamy in the traditional sense is not working," says Mr. Wade. As a psychotherapist and couples therapist for over 30 years, I take issue. As Chesterton said about Christianity: "It was not tried and found wanting; it was found difficult and not tried." It takes a lot of integrity and psychological maturity--and a lot of hard work--to "make marriage work." The genius of monogamous marriage is that is the only form of partnership that allows true intimacy to develop: what Martin 'Buber called the "I-thou" relationship.
Note that I said "allows," not "guarantees." The moment that monogamy goes out the window, so does the possibility of true intimacy, which thrives only with trust, and emotional safety. Having other partners, regardless of "openness" is a viable choice, for consenting adults... but know that one consequence is the sacrifice of ever being truly intimate--or truly growing up emotionally.
Mr. Wade's qualifications appear to be limited to engineering--not a field known for cultivating expertise in psychology or human relationship... and yet he has become an authority on marriage. Miracles never cease.
Note that I said "allows," not "guarantees." The moment that monogamy goes out the window, so does the possibility of true intimacy, which thrives only with trust, and emotional safety. Having other partners, regardless of "openness" is a viable choice, for consenting adults... but know that one consequence is the sacrifice of ever being truly intimate--or truly growing up emotionally.
Mr. Wade's qualifications appear to be limited to engineering--not a field known for cultivating expertise in psychology or human relationship... and yet he has become an authority on marriage. Miracles never cease.
132
@steve
Simply stunned and in disbelief that your post is the top recommended today.
There is a glimmer of hope for the human race.
Maybe.
Simply stunned and in disbelief that your post is the top recommended today.
There is a glimmer of hope for the human race.
Maybe.
1
Is "true intimacy" like "true Christanity?"
Shall we try diversity in thinking about love?
Shall we try diversity in thinking about love?
3
It always feels peculiar to see religious people displaying their unabashed arrogance so blatantly.
Who are you to tell that "monogamous marriage is that is the only form of partnership that allows true intimacy to develop"? Have you ever been in a non-monogamous marriage (polygamous, free union, 2+2,...)? Have you ever had any meaningful conversation with someone who lives in a civilization where it is the norm?
Do you truly believe that true intimacy (whatever that is) was absent of long lasting and rich civilizations that did not have a tradition (or even a concept) of monogamous marriage (which is a rather late construct in human history)?
To think that tolerance, acceptance and humility are supposed to be corner values of the Christian faith.
Besides, if we define a successful monogamous relation as one that ends by the death of one of the partners and that involves no extraneous relations whatsoever, I believe that Mr. Wade assertion’s is statistically true by a pretty large margin. Not to say that there aren’t happy successful ones nor that they aren’t fulfilling for those in it; they just don’t represent the majority.
Who are you to tell that "monogamous marriage is that is the only form of partnership that allows true intimacy to develop"? Have you ever been in a non-monogamous marriage (polygamous, free union, 2+2,...)? Have you ever had any meaningful conversation with someone who lives in a civilization where it is the norm?
Do you truly believe that true intimacy (whatever that is) was absent of long lasting and rich civilizations that did not have a tradition (or even a concept) of monogamous marriage (which is a rather late construct in human history)?
To think that tolerance, acceptance and humility are supposed to be corner values of the Christian faith.
Besides, if we define a successful monogamous relation as one that ends by the death of one of the partners and that involves no extraneous relations whatsoever, I believe that Mr. Wade assertion’s is statistically true by a pretty large margin. Not to say that there aren’t happy successful ones nor that they aren’t fulfilling for those in it; they just don’t represent the majority.
3
There is a lifestyle for "cheaters" and it's called "staying a single swinger". Just imagine what Mr Wade's kids think about him: my dad runs websites on how to cheat on your spouse. I bet they wear that on a T-shirt everyday!
Where are the hackers when you needs them?
Where are the hackers when you needs them?
47
No. There is no such thing as "ethical cheating". This is just another example of the heartless, cynical hedonism that is becoming the norm and trying to pass as progress.
People need emotional stability in their personal life in order to thrive and flourish. This is true for everyone, but truest when it comes to children. Children of betrayed, abandoned, bamboozled or absentee parents grow into depressed, anxious adults.
People need emotional stability in their personal life in order to thrive and flourish. This is true for everyone, but truest when it comes to children. Children of betrayed, abandoned, bamboozled or absentee parents grow into depressed, anxious adults.
73
"Children of betrayed, abandoned, bamboozled or absentee parents grow into depressed, anxious adults."
Indeed. And we all know there are no such children of 'happily-married', monogamous, church-going couples.
Indeed. And we all know there are no such children of 'happily-married', monogamous, church-going couples.
14
@Lisa Evers
If you go on his site, I will take you out for a coffee.
You rock.
If you go on his site, I will take you out for a coffee.
You rock.
1
"People need emotional stability in their personal life in order to thrive and flourish. This is true for everyone, but truest when it comes to children. Children of betrayed, abandoned, bamboozled or absentee parents grow into depressed, anxious adults. "
Indeed. And we all know that children of 'happily married', traditional, monogamous church-going couples never end up feeling betrayed or abandoned, etc.
Indeed. And we all know that children of 'happily married', traditional, monogamous church-going couples never end up feeling betrayed or abandoned, etc.
1
Wow! Turn personal failings into hot new business models! Great new twist on making lemonade out of all those lemons!
After all, standards are so HARD to live up to! Why bother? And isn't honesty a virtue? See, I'm a GOOD person!
Life is full of tests and challenges, but it's not a game show. There's no winning and losing; there's learning and growing, or not. The failure of a relationship can result in great anguish but also great inner knowledge.
To learn to swim, you need to get all the way into the water. You can't just dip a few toes in and keep a few toes out, just in case...
And you have no hope of learning how to truly love another human being, with all that entails, past the first giddy romantic flush, if you don't have the courage to commit utterly to that person. That person may not have the same courage, ultimately. But that is neither your fault nor your responsibility, nor ultimately your worry. Concentrate on your own soul's education.
After all, standards are so HARD to live up to! Why bother? And isn't honesty a virtue? See, I'm a GOOD person!
Life is full of tests and challenges, but it's not a game show. There's no winning and losing; there's learning and growing, or not. The failure of a relationship can result in great anguish but also great inner knowledge.
To learn to swim, you need to get all the way into the water. You can't just dip a few toes in and keep a few toes out, just in case...
And you have no hope of learning how to truly love another human being, with all that entails, past the first giddy romantic flush, if you don't have the courage to commit utterly to that person. That person may not have the same courage, ultimately. But that is neither your fault nor your responsibility, nor ultimately your worry. Concentrate on your own soul's education.
51
Well its capitalism at work. He saw a need and filled it. Getting 150,000 users in just a couple of months is pretty impressive.
Ethical cheating is an oxymoron. If it's ethical, it's not cheating. Each pair of partners make the rules for their own relationship. If those rules include an open attitude toward non-monogamy, than pursuing that isn't cheating. I think they need a better word or phrase to describe this.
86
Is it really smart to take marital advice from a self-interested entrepreneur who is on his third marriage?
He says that monogamy did not work out for him. No, as a repeat loser it seems likely that the weak link was him.
He says that monogamy did not work out for him. No, as a repeat loser it seems likely that the weak link was him.
103
Why do a number of commenters think that Wade is trying to give marital advice?
2
Yes I really want to take relationship advice from a man on his third marriage who thinks cheating can be "ethical".
If you want to cheat, don't get married. If you are cheating and you are married you should get divorced because lets face it you really don't want to be married. Its just convient for you and probably is better for you economically.
I can just imagine a husband telling his wife he wants to cheat: honey I'd like to have sex with other women. If you don't agree I will put both you and the kids out on the street. Ok, if I cheat. Why can't people just control themselves? Because they don't want to. Ok then don't get married.
If you want to cheat, don't get married. If you are cheating and you are married you should get divorced because lets face it you really don't want to be married. Its just convient for you and probably is better for you economically.
I can just imagine a husband telling his wife he wants to cheat: honey I'd like to have sex with other women. If you don't agree I will put both you and the kids out on the street. Ok, if I cheat. Why can't people just control themselves? Because they don't want to. Ok then don't get married.
78
@Justice Holmes
Whatever he calls it, it is selling out there.
How low can we go? Apparently we are not at bottom. Yet.
Whatever he calls it, it is selling out there.
How low can we go? Apparently we are not at bottom. Yet.
1
Monogamy works just fine for plenty of people. Maybe he should try a husband.
29
@West Coaster
Who knows? Good point.
Who knows? Good point.