Living in rural Argentina, I met many missionaries trudging at the roadside. I talked with them just to remind them of good old North American irony and East Coast sarcasm.
"Do you know why the send you guys out to the jungles, deserts, and tundra?"
"Older guys, elders, do that just to get you out of town so they can entertain your young ladyfriends."
"Noooo" they say.
Yea, perish the thought!
"Do you know why the send you guys out to the jungles, deserts, and tundra?"
"Older guys, elders, do that just to get you out of town so they can entertain your young ladyfriends."
"Noooo" they say.
Yea, perish the thought!
6
Best thing for Mormons - or anyone happy in their faith - be happy, even joyous, just leave the rest of us alone.
32
Religion is obviously all a bunch of lies, but that doesn't mean you have to be impolite to people just because they're selling it. People sell lots of things and you can't blame a salesman for his pitch.
7
I don't think I need to debate anyone here about personal belief systems. The experience I have showed me that the people I encountered at my front door, although very presentable and well spoken, were trying to convince me that their interpretation of the bible better answers the issues that we all ponder in our search for truth.
I fail to recognize the upside of conversion to the religion they are promoting, when I believe that a person having a good moral code, and being respectful and kind to others has all they really need. What more do they offer ? Some of their explanations were in fact compelling, but no more so than could be explained by any faith with the proper guidance.
My advise might include looking for peace in your life that will bring happiness. I have tasted that peace and enjoy happiness. What else can they offer me ? Mine was gifted to me as a result of an NDE. No need to believe me.... I'm happy believing it myself.
I fail to recognize the upside of conversion to the religion they are promoting, when I believe that a person having a good moral code, and being respectful and kind to others has all they really need. What more do they offer ? Some of their explanations were in fact compelling, but no more so than could be explained by any faith with the proper guidance.
My advise might include looking for peace in your life that will bring happiness. I have tasted that peace and enjoy happiness. What else can they offer me ? Mine was gifted to me as a result of an NDE. No need to believe me.... I'm happy believing it myself.
12
Brian you are among the lucky few to have experienced that warm unconditional love that each of us is destined for, and return to share it with us.
4
I hate it when I am sitting at a bus stop minding my own business when along comes some Jehovah Proselytizer. Usually, I act busy so that they won't bother me. If you just sit there, without a book or something to look occupied, they will bombard you with their pamphlets.
I also had an unpleasant experience with a local boutique owner. When I went in to look at her merchandise, she sauntered over to ask me if I was a Christian. When I replied I was not, she said "what a shame" and proceeded to proselytize for her church. I was so offended that I walked out empty-handed, never to return. Since then, I have learned that other people have had the same experience with this person. She might persuade some like thinkers, but frankly I think she will eventually commit career suicide. I am surprised she is still in business and gets "good" reviews on Yelp. I suspect those reviews are phony and/or submitted by her church friends.
I also had an unpleasant experience with a local boutique owner. When I went in to look at her merchandise, she sauntered over to ask me if I was a Christian. When I replied I was not, she said "what a shame" and proceeded to proselytize for her church. I was so offended that I walked out empty-handed, never to return. Since then, I have learned that other people have had the same experience with this person. She might persuade some like thinkers, but frankly I think she will eventually commit career suicide. I am surprised she is still in business and gets "good" reviews on Yelp. I suspect those reviews are phony and/or submitted by her church friends.
9
Another hint: Seek out the emotionally needy and desperate. They're more likely to need both companionship and a crutch.
20
Thoughts:
All proselytizing religions are intolerant and, more often than not, take their intolerance to an extreme level.
Every proselytizing religion thinks its way is the only way, its truth the only truth.
Some of the faithful just go farther than others in their zeal & enthusiasm to convert and control....
All proselytizing religions are intolerant and, more often than not, take their intolerance to an extreme level.
Every proselytizing religion thinks its way is the only way, its truth the only truth.
Some of the faithful just go farther than others in their zeal & enthusiasm to convert and control....
18
The good thing is the majority are good kind people who realize people of every faith are muddling through trying to do the right thing in life. I think most try to find commonality rather then the differences. Very few bother you and try to proselytize. At least the Mormons in this regard are very polite. Some will aggressively tell you that "Jesus died for your sins," so you politely tell them perhaps his death on the cross is meant to evoke compassion about the suffering of others, and that this discussion is making you suffer.
8
I am so happy to live in a country where people holding any "ism" or "ology" are free to knock on my door and, if I consent, try to persuade me to agree with them. I'm just as free to ignore them.
38
" ... and never say your job is not to worry about the 47% of the people you haven't converted yet."
21
Does it matter when you are proselytizing whether what you have to say has any basis in reality or not?
25
Obviously and absolutely not. Its why I hide under the couch when I see them coming and they knock on my door. Unfortunately they sometimes sneak up on me when I am out in the open weeding my petunias.
2
If you think of proselytizing as sharing one's strongest convictions, it's a behavior which can be connected to religion or really to any cause whatsoever. Generally, for a cause or movement to succeed, you need to convince others and get them to participate, in which case proselytizing is the natural outgrowth of any strongly held conviction. So this is a very fundamental issue and part of our humanity, I mean what makes humans really interesting and inspiring. What other species proselytizes?!
Thanks for the thought-provoking piece.
Thanks for the thought-provoking piece.
5
I grew up in a middle of the road but Christian church (Evangelical United Brethren denomination which merged with the Methodists in the 1960s to become the United Methodists). I also grew up in a neighborhood in Dayton, Ohio, in the 1950's and 1960's where many of my friends were Jewish (a lot of their fathers were civilian employees at Wright Patterson AFB, think DARPA). Some of our elementary schoolteachers insisted in Bible readings as a morning ritual. They did not stick to the Old Testament/Talmud. I became militantly opposed to proselytizing because at the age of 12 I saw it as an insult to my friends, many of whom were named after great aunts or uncles who had died in the camps, and especially to their parents. (That's the expression I heard used then.)
41
The most important thing to know about proselytizing is that you should stop as soon as someone says they're not interested. Be respectful of those who do not choose to discuss their faith with you and leave them alone. I'm glad my religion doesn't proselytize.
I attended a non-sectarian private high school but we played mostly religious private schools in sports. The proselytizing started after every away basketball game. When I politely said I wasn't interested because I was of another religion, I was told "you need it even more"! They were relentless.
I attended a non-sectarian private high school but we played mostly religious private schools in sports. The proselytizing started after every away basketball game. When I politely said I wasn't interested because I was of another religion, I was told "you need it even more"! They were relentless.
57
So, what is so threatening about this little commentary? It is not trying to convert anyone, just reiterating what the LDS missionaries should be doing on their mission to convert people. Duh! It also is for us, those on the inside of the door. Be polite. Be kind. Realize that the missionaries are human, too. And then, kindly say, no thanks. Be nice. They are. Why be threatened by them? It is only a sales job by some nice young people. If you can't buy the religion, think of it as selling an encyclopedia you don't want. Or girl scout cookies when you are on a diet.
19
I believe in being nasty to them because they are trying to rip people off into believing in nonsense.
12
I'm not nasty to them, but remember, they are the ones interrupting me, I am not interrupting them. And I am not trying to sell them anything, but they're trying to sell me on what they see as their superior beliefs. The commentary isn't threatening, and people should generally be polite, but I'm not so sure I consider knocking on my door and taking me away from whatever I'm doing is all that polite.
I also think the belief systems I hear at my door are balderdash. I don't feel the need to say so, but I do think it.
I also think the belief systems I hear at my door are balderdash. I don't feel the need to say so, but I do think it.
18
My beliefs, or non-belief, is no one's business. If churches want to pad their bank accounts, which is the purpose of proselytizing, let them do it by demonstrating overwhelmingly that they are kind, generous, empathetic, and socially conscious people. Let them inspire by their goodness. Let's see some of that for a change.
22
'Just read the article on scam artists operating on dating websites. Same methodology. What's not mentioned is that the Mormon church--and others--not only scam lonely people about the hereafter; they also scam them out of their cash in the present.
27
Most of this article is really about how to effectively and persuasively communicate with people; notice that there is zero theology in it. Change a few words and this could be a guide to being a good salesperson.
40
its like there is a kit to sell something. No matter what it is. An article in NYT a while back associated ex missionairies with home security & asphalt resurfacing businesses. Not that there is anything wrong with those businesses.
4
'Nothing' is unstable. Therefore, existence is emergent, not created.
An emergent creator is nonsense. Dress up as you will.
An emergent creator is nonsense. Dress up as you will.
5
For the most part, religion survives through the indoctrination of children, before their brains have developed enough for critical thinking and logic. Recent research has shown our brains are not fully developed until we reach our mid to late 20's.
If any of these young Mormons had been accidentally switched at birth and sent home with a baptist family, they would have been baptists. So drawing out the logic, we must ask ourselves if the circumstances of our birth are sufficient to believe the contradictory fairy tales espoused by different religions.
If any of these young Mormons had been accidentally switched at birth and sent home with a baptist family, they would have been baptists. So drawing out the logic, we must ask ourselves if the circumstances of our birth are sufficient to believe the contradictory fairy tales espoused by different religions.
44
I understand that proselytizing is part of certain religion's fabric, but I find it really offensive.
Because of constantly being told I will come to Jesus eventually, I have begun to be very open about my atheism. Basically I believe everyone should go to the church of their choice--or not--and that's where it should stay. We are incredibly lucky to live in a country with such freedom for religious practice; the religious should be wiser about this. The current infusion of religion in politics not a good thing.....
Because of constantly being told I will come to Jesus eventually, I have begun to be very open about my atheism. Basically I believe everyone should go to the church of their choice--or not--and that's where it should stay. We are incredibly lucky to live in a country with such freedom for religious practice; the religious should be wiser about this. The current infusion of religion in politics not a good thing.....
62
And therein lies the rub. My interest in religious mythology is limited. My resistance to the power it exerts in the all-too-knowing political hands of others limiting what I and others may think, believe and do, concerns me greatly.
5
I often say I'm a non-practicing Buddhist, i.e. one who doesn't meditate, which is like a Koan and leaves the proselytizer speechless because it is an oxymoron.
9
Here's a word of advice - stay off my property and do not dare knock on my door. BTW, your cult was founded by a 19th century charlatan and philanderer.
55
Both historically and the way it was explained to me, we Jews ( except for those who went off and created a new spin on the monotheistic thing) don't proselytize! So living in present day southern Brooklyn ( the Brooklyn that historically nurtured probably, with the Bronx included, the most accomplished , elevated, talented and worldly landsmen and landsmenettes!) it irks me no end to get off my subway or leave my local Super Stop and Shop and be confronted with these black clad pais ensconced young fellows, who exclaim , "Are you Jewish?! I find it embarrassing for others to witness such misrepresentations (and with their increasing numbers and media push, they weirdly are becoming the face of Judiasm, especially to the less educated!) and feel bothered by their boldness, and you might say, chutzpah ! I don't know how others respond, but I simply say in all sincerity , Are You Jewish?! And keep,walking. G-d will determine who is Jewish and who is not, and I would think the Holy One would not care! Who is Righteous! That's the ticket...
37
Embody the dharma with all your actions; when necessary, use words.
This Buddhist teaching has, in the last few decades, been slightly reworded and attributed to St. Francis of Assisi.
As Bruce Springsteen sang, "Everybody has a hungry heart"; and as Augustine told the Lord centuries ago, "Our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee."
And it was a guy teaching psychology at Marymount University in Arlington, VA who told me the three assumptions of the mystical worldview:
1)The Universe is here on purpose
2)Humankind has, or could have. some connection with that purpose
3)It's possible to develop one's ability to perceive and act on that purpose
May the Creative Forces of the Universe stand beside us, and guide us, through the Night with the Light from Above (metaphorically speaking).
This Buddhist teaching has, in the last few decades, been slightly reworded and attributed to St. Francis of Assisi.
As Bruce Springsteen sang, "Everybody has a hungry heart"; and as Augustine told the Lord centuries ago, "Our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee."
And it was a guy teaching psychology at Marymount University in Arlington, VA who told me the three assumptions of the mystical worldview:
1)The Universe is here on purpose
2)Humankind has, or could have. some connection with that purpose
3)It's possible to develop one's ability to perceive and act on that purpose
May the Creative Forces of the Universe stand beside us, and guide us, through the Night with the Light from Above (metaphorically speaking).
8
So what are the Buddhists in Thailand doing to the Moslem minority Rohangas (sp?). I used to think: ah, one religion that doesn't oppress others. Apparently I was wrong.
Let's stick to trying to figure out what needs to be done in increments of different size chunks and not trying to shape the world.
Let's stick to trying to figure out what needs to be done in increments of different size chunks and not trying to shape the world.
4
Carol, is it the religion that doesn't oppress others, or is it the followers of a religion who mis interpret their religion and what it stands for? It is true for all religions. We can easily note, historically Christianity has been one of the most brutal religions through the middle ages. Islam too has had its fair share of brutality and extremism. But it may not be the core teaching of the religion but the handlers of the religion, those who choose to externally flaunt their religious symbols and garb, superficially and unfortunately in shallow ways.
6
While entertaining very polite, usually respectful and nice enough kids doing LDS missions, and on the weekend, especially during summers, JW's passing out pamphlets, I have yet to meet those that I've been told by Pat Robertson and Ted Cruz and Huckabee and , well, you know the usual suspects, anyway, I have yet to meet those "Homosexual Agenda Recruiters," though I know they must be there. Must be, because Ellen DeGeneres said that if she got one more convert, she was sure she was in line for the toaster-oven.
Now, the ultra-right has been telling me I'm definitely going to run into them, so I'm just here, still waiting, still hoping, to see who these people are, exactly. Because the only recruiters I've seen are in the religious tract brigades, come to think of it.
Now, the ultra-right has been telling me I'm definitely going to run into them, so I'm just here, still waiting, still hoping, to see who these people are, exactly. Because the only recruiters I've seen are in the religious tract brigades, come to think of it.
28
My retired mother had occasional visits from missionaries. She would invite them in with the caveat that she would discuss her religion with them as well. She had several enjoyable chats with Mormons, comparing theology and finding common ground and discussing scriptural bases for differences. Jehovah's Witnesses invariably rejected her condition.
15
If you tell them that you will share what you believe then listen to what they believe, they will run away from your doorstep in a second. It worked for me!
24
Keep your religion to yourself.
93
I just returned from living in India for two years. Our cultures are very different in almost every respect. I found it refreshing in India that there is generally an open exchange around one's views of spirituality and various religious expressions. For example, a Sikh invited me to have a coffee to just find out what Christians believe. Hindus loved to explain their ubiquitous religious festivals and treated me as a fellow pilgrim on a journey to and within God. Muslims included me in their prayers...not that I convert, but out of love. The Jesuit junior college brings in swami's and mullahs to educate their students in their respective traditions and have signs around campus from the Gita, Quran, and Christian tradition. Here in the US and particularly in NYT responses, there is a close mindedness and lack of tolerance for us seekers. Folks are blind to their bias/prejudice/ lack of tolerance that secularists constantly hold up as their banner. May all of our eyes be opened bearing fruit in love and tolerance for one another . Shalom
37
Bob you are so right! Traveling in India It's not unusual to find a church, a mosque, a gurudwara, a Hindu temple all on the same street. Hindus listen to Muslim prayer calls the same way Muslims listen to Hindu devotional songs on loudspeaker at puja pandals every street corner. The few religious riots are typically creations of mischief makers, politicians, rogues. Ordinary people are content sharing sweets and feasts with neighbors of all religions, the more the merrier!
8
I have all kinds of tolerance for seekers. But I have zero tolerance for foisters. You know, years ago, the Herbalife people had it right: They went around with buttons reading "Lose weight now. Ask me how." In other words, if you were interested in learning about their program for losing weight, you should be a seeker and ask. That's very different from somebody coming up to you, unbidden, and saying "Man, you're a tub. I know how to be effortlessly thin, and I'm going to tell you all about my program."
Same thing with religions. If you're a seeker, if you want to find out about Judaism, Mormonism, Seventh-Day Adventists, Sikhs, Buddhists....no problem. Ask. But when a member of one of those groups takes it upon him/herself to foist his/her beliefs on me -- again, unbidden -- then you bet I take offense. And I don't remotely view this as evidence of close-mindedness. I view it as having a certain distaste for mind-boggling rudeness.
Same thing with religions. If you're a seeker, if you want to find out about Judaism, Mormonism, Seventh-Day Adventists, Sikhs, Buddhists....no problem. Ask. But when a member of one of those groups takes it upon him/herself to foist his/her beliefs on me -- again, unbidden -- then you bet I take offense. And I don't remotely view this as evidence of close-mindedness. I view it as having a certain distaste for mind-boggling rudeness.
27
How about NOT proselytizing? It is incredibly arrogant for anyone to believe that their religion is the only true religion. Your faith may sustain you, but it probably won't sustain me. It is the height of rudeness to assume that a stranger wants to hear all about your religion and switch.
Honestly, no one can know another person's inner self. So don't pretend that your religion has all the answers. It doesn't. So leave me alone!
Honestly, no one can know another person's inner self. So don't pretend that your religion has all the answers. It doesn't. So leave me alone!
118
I agree with you and I also think that NYT commenters who are not believers should refrain from telling the rest of us that we are wrong in our beliefs and that they know the absolute truth. This is really just as bad as proselytizing for a religion. So yes, please, leave us alone too.
18
"I agree with you and I also think that NYT commenters who are not believers should refrain from telling the rest of us that we are wrong in our beliefs and that they know the absolute truth."
How would anyone know you were religious unless you were "sneak" proselytizing? I don't want anyone to pray for me, think of me at their next entmoot with the big guy upstairs or tell me how they've been saved. My suggestion to you, is you are wearing your religion on your sleeve if you're being--hem--criticized for it.
How would anyone know you were religious unless you were "sneak" proselytizing? I don't want anyone to pray for me, think of me at their next entmoot with the big guy upstairs or tell me how they've been saved. My suggestion to you, is you are wearing your religion on your sleeve if you're being--hem--criticized for it.
37
mj: You really misunderstood what I was saying. I think it's pretty clear that among the NYT readership there are some who are believers and some who are not. Just as Bethynyc is making the point that it isn't respectful for a proselytizer to assume that his religion is the best or only valid point of view and then to try to impose it on another, so I am saying that it isn't respectful for a nonbeliever to assume that "he knows," and then to write disparagingly of religion or of those who believe. Why isn't that an attempt to proselytize? Isn't that also imposing a belief on others, disregarding what they believe, out of the same assumption, "I know the truth, therefore whatever you may think is irrelevant?" Please show me how these two things are not really the same.
8
No comment.
I wish to be welcome here in the future.
I wish to be welcome here in the future.
9
We have regular visits from Jehovah's witness proselytizers and LDS enthusiasts. We can spot them from a distance. I have actually opened the for to chat, to assure them that even if the world were to disappear, we will all be safe, absorbed in consciousness which is our source. Instead of their proselytizing, I usually console and assure them that no matter what, even if we die, we are all going home, that there is no such thing as judgement, eternal heaven or hell and that we are all equally loved and cherished, each one of us, sinners, liars, thieves, robbers, rapists, warriors, butchers, animal killers, racists, republicans and democrats. They usually leave after getting an ear full from me, and I recycle all the paper brochures they offer, guilt free, because our town collects recyclables weekly.
70
Dont you think there should be an incentive to be good rather than a bad person?
2
There IS an incentive: the desire to be an ethical human being. It can be totally unrelated to organized religion.
29
Perhaps there should be, but what does that have to do with the truth or falsity of religious claims?
5
I love The Book of Mormon.