This is not an issue about this country or that country. Ultimately it is an issue about fiscal responsibility, or more bluntly, of an ever decreasing share of the population in the private sector in most of the Western world having to put up and fund, with their taxes, a forever growing public sector.
Greece can't possibly pay back the loan, and Germany can't write it down. The obvious solution is as silly as it is inevitable: the debt will continue to be rolled over into notes of longer maturity and lower interest, until they finally become effectively infinite maturity and zero interest. At which it's really not much different than cancelling the debt, except that the Germans buy the right to humiliate Greece in perpetuity.
2
Merkel and Schäuble simply did what had to be done. Over the last several years Germany has been asked many times to take on a greater deal of leadership within the EU. As rightly remarked there are many countries within the EU which wholeheartedly support Merkel's course. And who now conveniently ride in the tail wake. The EU is not a 'United States of Europe' with an common tax- or social sec system. There are contracts which regulate the rights and duties between the members. Merkel and Schäuble simply executed those contracts. Already the more wealthy members contribute with huge amounts per year to the less privileged economies. Just like its been requested by the many commenters ignorant about how the EU works. To a large degree the blame is to put on the leftist Greek government (not the Greek people!). They showed up at the bank with the attitude of a rotten teenager requesting to nix their loans. Unwilling or unable or both to initiate reforms long overdue in their administration which dozens of privileges for the wealthy. It's not just Schäuble, everybody on the lenders side were completely ticked off by Tsipras and Varoufakis.
All the talk about the cracks in the Euro zone or the EU will subside in a few weeks. Despite the flaws in the EU especially its administration the vast majority of EU people know quite well the benefits of a EU. All the self appointed expert economists and philosophers will find new topics to rant about.
All the talk about the cracks in the Euro zone or the EU will subside in a few weeks. Despite the flaws in the EU especially its administration the vast majority of EU people know quite well the benefits of a EU. All the self appointed expert economists and philosophers will find new topics to rant about.
1
This is a ridiculous tempest in a fingerhut. Germany is on the hook for about $70 billion to Greece. Nominal German GDP is about $4 trillion. Germany could write off every loan outstanding to Greece without a hickup to its economy. This is all about punishment, not economics.
2
As an economist whose specialty is the European Economic Community/European Union I am disturbed as to how the conventional wirdom has turned against Germany (Chancellor Merkel and Finance Minister Schäuble) -- totally ignoring the strict rules, the Convergence Criteria, that had been accepted before membership in the eurozone was to be considered. Europe was not really ready for the single currency, and Greece was let into the Eurozone in the last minute in order not be discriminated against -- it was an unwise political decision, ignoring the riskiness.
There was a moral hazard that a weak country benefitting from monetary union with a strong and responsibly managed country might exploit this unity, as its currency could not be devalued and that thus the interest rate on its borrowings would not reflect the extent risk. Worse, the new Greek government not only continued the irresponsible policies of its predecessors, but destroyed the last year's economic improvement by ignoring the commitments the country has made to the other Eurozone members and the various other institutions and lenders and playing the game, expecting the real victims, i.e. the lenders who believed the Greek promises of repaying the the debt as promised, to blink first.
How does the world accept the statement by Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras that he cannot violate the promise he made to the people who elected him while ignoring the promises, nay legal commitments Greece has made to the lenders.
There was a moral hazard that a weak country benefitting from monetary union with a strong and responsibly managed country might exploit this unity, as its currency could not be devalued and that thus the interest rate on its borrowings would not reflect the extent risk. Worse, the new Greek government not only continued the irresponsible policies of its predecessors, but destroyed the last year's economic improvement by ignoring the commitments the country has made to the other Eurozone members and the various other institutions and lenders and playing the game, expecting the real victims, i.e. the lenders who believed the Greek promises of repaying the the debt as promised, to blink first.
How does the world accept the statement by Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras that he cannot violate the promise he made to the people who elected him while ignoring the promises, nay legal commitments Greece has made to the lenders.
4
Everyone can argue about wo did what, whether in the last century this one, people of all nationalities make mistakes, sometimes massive mistakes.
The biggest problem with Germany's and the current euro zone response is that it won't improve anything. Of course Greece must change its ways, and they probably need monitoring because they sure haven't managed it thus far. However, imposing impossible and punitive terms that will further destroy their economy will resolve nothing and just create more problems.
We all know really ugly things can happen when people and/or countries find themselves in impossible positions and have no hope!
There needs to be less moralizing and more reality and compromise.
The biggest problem with Germany's and the current euro zone response is that it won't improve anything. Of course Greece must change its ways, and they probably need monitoring because they sure haven't managed it thus far. However, imposing impossible and punitive terms that will further destroy their economy will resolve nothing and just create more problems.
We all know really ugly things can happen when people and/or countries find themselves in impossible positions and have no hope!
There needs to be less moralizing and more reality and compromise.
2
The EU is a failure. Imagine if in the US California or New York refused to pay for Alabama's Social security and demanded Alabama pay back all their debts by cutting wages across the state and force their social security recipients to accept 30% less pay-out.
The real solution is for Germany and the entire EU to pay for the social welfare of all its people.
You can't have self-sustaining economies in an economic union...eventually one economy will out produce all the others.
Call it the comparative advantage trap.
The real solution is for Germany and the entire EU to pay for the social welfare of all its people.
You can't have self-sustaining economies in an economic union...eventually one economy will out produce all the others.
Call it the comparative advantage trap.
1
All of the Southern countries of the Euro-zone (Portugal, Spain and Italy) are beset with recession created crumbling economies for which more austerity would be just as damaging as it has been to Greece. It has been clearly demonstrated that austerity has been severe bloodletting as it was to Greece and the first President George Washington. A reasonable amount of debt forgiveness is a very small price to restore the amount of economic activity needed to prevent the Euro from collaspsing.
Facts are stubborn things: austerity was working until Syriza took over. Government spending has never grown an economy
1
For the first 14 years of my life (91) i lived in Germany in the earky 1930s.
Though my family was well off, i was taught in those years the difference between "WANTING" something and "NEEDING" it. This was re-enforced in the first couple of decades in the US, when we had just enough to get by. We tried to raise my kids with that lesson, but they rarely apply it. So does too much of the rest of the world that can afford to. Re-enforced by advertising, have it all now, pay later... impresses a consumerist attitude on most from an early age on. As a result consumer debt is sky high. ---George Bush too had that policy when, instead of paying for the foolish war he started, he ran it on the cuff, adding greatly to the national debt, which is almost equal to the GDP.
Greece lived in that mode too and now they hate the day of reckoning. They expect the rest of the world, or a few nations to bail them out.
***Who would bail you out??**
Though my family was well off, i was taught in those years the difference between "WANTING" something and "NEEDING" it. This was re-enforced in the first couple of decades in the US, when we had just enough to get by. We tried to raise my kids with that lesson, but they rarely apply it. So does too much of the rest of the world that can afford to. Re-enforced by advertising, have it all now, pay later... impresses a consumerist attitude on most from an early age on. As a result consumer debt is sky high. ---George Bush too had that policy when, instead of paying for the foolish war he started, he ran it on the cuff, adding greatly to the national debt, which is almost equal to the GDP.
Greece lived in that mode too and now they hate the day of reckoning. They expect the rest of the world, or a few nations to bail them out.
***Who would bail you out??**
8
Being part of the EU comes with responsibilities. The Greek politicians played it very well or are just incredibly stupid. Either way, they have been out maneuvered by the EU. The Greeks now have to enforce austerity and finally learn to collected taxes and they can blame the EU (or Germany) as the big bad wolf every time someone complains. And, if they are unable or worst still, stupid enough, to not do what they agreed to do then they will be forced to leave the Euro. No one will push them out, they'll simply leave. And, EU the Euro will be better for it.
The EU was founded to bring together a continent politically and economically. But when you have a country like Greece having no sense of fiscal responsibility it's time for someone to say enough is enough. Would you put up with a child who spent your money frivolously and who just continued to do so even when having been repeatedly warned? Of course, you wouldn't. Greece is that child. Either they grow up or they'll simply have to move out of the house.
To blame Germany is wrong. This is a European decision. And a brave one when faced with a recalcitrant child who has done nothing to earn the trust of it's neighbors.
The EU was founded to bring together a continent politically and economically. But when you have a country like Greece having no sense of fiscal responsibility it's time for someone to say enough is enough. Would you put up with a child who spent your money frivolously and who just continued to do so even when having been repeatedly warned? Of course, you wouldn't. Greece is that child. Either they grow up or they'll simply have to move out of the house.
To blame Germany is wrong. This is a European decision. And a brave one when faced with a recalcitrant child who has done nothing to earn the trust of it's neighbors.
10
What seems to go under in the discussion is the fact that Greece owes its European partners ** 380 BILLION Dollars **.
The discussion then was about whether to extend another 80 billion.
One major question: why do that if Greece is down and out -- bancrupt ??
But to me the much more important question is: how does Greece get back on its feet as a functioning economy and state ?
The discussion then was about whether to extend another 80 billion.
One major question: why do that if Greece is down and out -- bancrupt ??
But to me the much more important question is: how does Greece get back on its feet as a functioning economy and state ?
2
What utter hogwash. The Euro has always been a political project of the leading sectors of the European bourgeoise in the most developed countries, constructed to dominate and extract value from the less developed. The "rules" were established in the Germans favor from the beginning, and without a centralized European political regime with it's own treasury no real federation on the basis of equality can occur. This has now become obvious to the point of banality, and since it's clear that there is still very strong resistance among Europeans to move to a real federal system the only other possible outcome is the collapse of the Euro. Syriza's failure - and likewise, in it's own domestic situation, Podemos in Spain - is it's reluctance to build popular support for and to construct a plan to implement Greece's exit from the Euro. This is now an urgent necessity to rescue the majority of it's own population from abject poverty and the danger of the political right hijacking the state. The Euro project is over, and requires a planned, orderly and speedy death or Europe, and very likely the rest of us, will reap the whirlwind.
3
There is a lot of blame to go around for Greece getting to its current state. However, German should remember that when it was in a desperate state after WWII, a war it started, It was through the generosity of other countries, especially the U.S., that it had the chance to recover. Germany's current punitive stance is not helpful
2
DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DID The fact is that Germany never repaid the funds spent on reconstruction after WW I or WW II. The Marshall plan, designed to produce efficient rebuilding and prosperity, resulted in the German Economic Miracle. So in it rough treatment of Greece, falsely assuming the moral high ground, Germany has effectively bitten the hand that fed it after WW II. The Germans did an outstanding job of educating their youth to the evils committed during WW II and outlawing any form of Nazism. But it did not include teaching the youth sufficient gratitude for the Marshall Plan that permitted them to have one of the wealthiest, peaceful countries in the history of the world. Germany needs some strong lessons in economic history and in showing the compassion that was shown for them toward Europe's less fortunate members of the EU who are, arguably, victims, in some part, of Germany's Economic Miracle. Germany's largesse will be rewarded, while its miserliness will haunt it for generations to come.
3
As Thomas Piketty has recently remarked, Germany never repaid its war debts. Perhaps, the Allies should demand repayment now that Germany is financially strong and use the funds to give relief to Greece, Italy, Portugal and Ireland.
1
There are only two choices: Either agree to give perpetual handouts to corrupt socialist Greece, or ask them to leave the Eurozone. Leaving would be the best long term solution for a involved!
11
"Greece is the problem, not Germany."
Ah. But Germany is the problem preventing a solution to the Greek problem. Austerity is a failure. Full Stop. A different approach is necessary. And, Germany needs to accept that the worsened condition of Greece today as compared with the beginning of the crisis is Germany's fault for having pushed the failed austerity policy to begin with.
Europe today needs:
1. A pan-European conference to review and write down debts from all members of the EU in order to restore the ability of Europe to grow.
2. A common budgeting process that either limits how much freedom each member has in setting budget policy (not just Greece) or the transfer of a portion of pan-European spending to the EU itself (not unlike the federal U.S. budget vs. the individual states).
3. Ditto, a common tax policy.
Members unwilling to go along with the above should be invited to switch to a Class II Euro that is essentially a currency peg and not the actual currency - not as a punishment but as an acknowledgement that a common currency is like a marriage or a partnership where one party can't "keep score" on how much they contribute versus the other party.
Ah. But Germany is the problem preventing a solution to the Greek problem. Austerity is a failure. Full Stop. A different approach is necessary. And, Germany needs to accept that the worsened condition of Greece today as compared with the beginning of the crisis is Germany's fault for having pushed the failed austerity policy to begin with.
Europe today needs:
1. A pan-European conference to review and write down debts from all members of the EU in order to restore the ability of Europe to grow.
2. A common budgeting process that either limits how much freedom each member has in setting budget policy (not just Greece) or the transfer of a portion of pan-European spending to the EU itself (not unlike the federal U.S. budget vs. the individual states).
3. Ditto, a common tax policy.
Members unwilling to go along with the above should be invited to switch to a Class II Euro that is essentially a currency peg and not the actual currency - not as a punishment but as an acknowledgement that a common currency is like a marriage or a partnership where one party can't "keep score" on how much they contribute versus the other party.
1
Austerity was working until Tsilras and Syriza took control
6
Says who?the media?the troika reports? Do you want to know the truth from someone that is unemployed for close to 2 years now?
NOTHING was working.We were in the worse situation EVER.
That's why people voted for him.If we were better don't you think we would had stick to those reforms they told us to do??!!
I have a teaching degree,i'm fluent in 3 languages and i couldn't even get a pizza delivery job.
NOTHING was working.We were in the worse situation EVER.
That's why people voted for him.If we were better don't you think we would had stick to those reforms they told us to do??!!
I have a teaching degree,i'm fluent in 3 languages and i couldn't even get a pizza delivery job.
The Greeks don't carry their weight and that's what irks most responsible members of the EU
6
The media narrative is mostly all about the hardliner Germans demanding unrealistic loan repayment versus the profligate Greek government that borrowed too much money, didn't collect its taxes, and left the Greek economy and people in a horrendous state.
So there is plenty of blame to go around in this Greek debt crisis, but it is a lot more complicated and sinister than it is being presented. And it is not just Germany and the EU Central Bank that are acting like loan sharks that allowed Greece to borrow too much money and then put the squeeze on Greece to undertake severe austerity measures that damaged the Greek economy and make it even more difficult to repay the loans.
Colluding, conniving, manipulating, and benefitting form the whole mess is our own Goldman Sachs. Please read Robert Reich's recent article describing Goldman's role not only in the Greek crisis, but Goldman's similar activities in this country with local governments.
http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/07/18/how-goldman-sachs-profited-from...
Why we didn't hear much about this in this country, I don't know. But I do know if we don't seriously reform our banking system sooner rather than later, we Americans too may all be Greeks.
So there is plenty of blame to go around in this Greek debt crisis, but it is a lot more complicated and sinister than it is being presented. And it is not just Germany and the EU Central Bank that are acting like loan sharks that allowed Greece to borrow too much money and then put the squeeze on Greece to undertake severe austerity measures that damaged the Greek economy and make it even more difficult to repay the loans.
Colluding, conniving, manipulating, and benefitting form the whole mess is our own Goldman Sachs. Please read Robert Reich's recent article describing Goldman's role not only in the Greek crisis, but Goldman's similar activities in this country with local governments.
http://www.nationofchange.org/2015/07/18/how-goldman-sachs-profited-from...
Why we didn't hear much about this in this country, I don't know. But I do know if we don't seriously reform our banking system sooner rather than later, we Americans too may all be Greeks.
3
America needs to reform its Big Government welfare state, not its banking system
3
PB,
We are Monetarily Sovereign and the Greeks are not. There is no comparison.
We are Monetarily Sovereign and the Greeks are not. There is no comparison.
2
We live in the 21 century and it is known from history that regional currencies, with the property to devalue if not kept in flow, can help to quickly restore a dysfunctional economy. Why not embrace diversity and design secondary currencies for Metropolitan/regional areas as measures to rebuilt their economies. Let's not forget almost a quarter of Greece's economy collapsed.
As of the debt, when a company fails money is lost, be honest, lending money and investing is a risky business.
In a currency union there will always be transfers, because there is no locality of money and sometimes balance has to be restored.
Germany's aggressive export strategy, lowering working class wages and lax lending are as much part of the problem as the slow change in Greece.
The EU not Germany needs to develop a strategy to balance the eroding effect of the common currency on it's union.
As of the debt, when a company fails money is lost, be honest, lending money and investing is a risky business.
In a currency union there will always be transfers, because there is no locality of money and sometimes balance has to be restored.
Germany's aggressive export strategy, lowering working class wages and lax lending are as much part of the problem as the slow change in Greece.
The EU not Germany needs to develop a strategy to balance the eroding effect of the common currency on it's union.
1
So Germany - which benefitted more than any other European country with the shared Euro currency now has a hissy fit over the Greeks? Give me a break. From pushing smaller countries into the Euro currency, clearly intended to benefit the larger exporters (Germany, France, Italy and the Netherlands), and using investment by their banks to sell their products (the Porsche Cayenne was one of the most popular cars sold in Greece in the mid-2000s), Germany knew the risks of allowing its smaller neighbors to adopt the Euro.
It conveniently now blames the victim (and the Greeks had many self-inflicted wounds too). But people see through this charade just like they saw through the narrative that Wall Street tried to push about profligate borrowers.
Same short-term profit motive with disastrous consequences.
It conveniently now blames the victim (and the Greeks had many self-inflicted wounds too). But people see through this charade just like they saw through the narrative that Wall Street tried to push about profligate borrowers.
Same short-term profit motive with disastrous consequences.
5
It's refreshing to see the Germans finally stand up to the Greeks and refuse Greek demands to "borrow " limitless amounts of money to fund their unsustainable bankrupt welfare state
10
The italian PM Renzi is planning to reduce corporate taxes, income taxes and abolish the property tax for primary residences. The germans are talking about increasing taxes to finance the greek bailout package. Is Germany really the bad guy?
9
Thanks for putting the German attitude towards Greece in the right perspective. The hullaballu about Germany is politically motivated and has nothing to do with the economical beeds of Greece. To recover, Greece neegs a soft currency which she can devalue when needed because her GPI is not based on industry but on agriculture and tourism. It was a mistake to admit Greece to the Eurozone in the first place.
Just to make it clear: most Germans do not like to have Greek out of the Eurozone as finance minister Schäuble suggested. There is a huge controversial debate in German parliament about Schäubles suggestion. Instead most favor Chancellor Dr. Merkels view: Keep Greek in the EU and implement reforms like taxing wealthy Greek people (it never happend at all!!!), increase retirement age from 55 to 67, adapt retirement money to most of the other European countries (they get more than Germany and other EU countries) etc, tax on all ships at Greek harbors etc...Greek government (also the past gov) refused to tax rich Greek people for many years until today but we can't bail out them a thrid time with billions of Euros (and 18 EU countries agree) without insisting on implementing reforms. This does not mean that German people do not want to help Greek people, of course we do but we are tired of Greek government...(current and the past).
4
Where would Europeans holiday if Greece became another Germany?
1
We tried austerity for Germany after WWI. It brought financial collapse and as a result nazism. After WWII, we gave Germany and other European countries the Marshall plan, a big infusion of money that put those European countries back on their feet. They reimbursed the loan of the Marshall plan with interest.
Can Germany remember?
Can Germany remember?
2
Yes, we can.
The greeks meanwhile got the "third Marshall Plan". But it does not help anyhow. We will not let them alone, even though they call us Nazis and blaming our government.
But thanks again for our Marshall plan. It really helped us.
And a big hug for not ratify the treaty of Versailles and making a seperate treaty of peace with us, that underlined that we were not the only guilty guys of WW1.
And thousand kisses for helping us reunify in 1990. We never forget it. Compared to our "friends" in Europe the US is a real partner. And conservative Germans know that and are therefore loyal to US.
You do not need to like us, but let's work together.
The greeks meanwhile got the "third Marshall Plan". But it does not help anyhow. We will not let them alone, even though they call us Nazis and blaming our government.
But thanks again for our Marshall plan. It really helped us.
And a big hug for not ratify the treaty of Versailles and making a seperate treaty of peace with us, that underlined that we were not the only guilty guys of WW1.
And thousand kisses for helping us reunify in 1990. We never forget it. Compared to our "friends" in Europe the US is a real partner. And conservative Germans know that and are therefore loyal to US.
You do not need to like us, but let's work together.
3
If the Anerican experience offers any lesson for the Germans to consider, it is that the "recipient" states--those who receive more in U.S. federal spending than they pay in taxes--still constitute fertile market components for the goods sold by the "donor" states. Germany will profit by having Greek customers with disposable income, and those customers will be likely to more than make up for the imbalance in government assistance.
It is not unreasonable to expect EU-wide standards for pensions, retirement, budged deficits and tax-collection effectiveness, but it is unwise to leave any one member country economically disemboweled by debt for such a long period.
It is not unreasonable to expect EU-wide standards for pensions, retirement, budged deficits and tax-collection effectiveness, but it is unwise to leave any one member country economically disemboweled by debt for such a long period.
2
It's so much easier for the left to blame Germany than admit the truth: socialism always fails
4
Yaah! Except in Sweden, Norway, Denmark...
Or Detroit, Chicago, the entire Soviet bloc, Venezuela, etc. facts are stubborn things: socialists always run out of other people's money
It is amazing the Germans--and other solvent EU monetary union members--have been so patient thus far. The Greek response to the last two big bailouts has been to avoid necessary reforms and now to elect a government that advocates against such reforms. Time for the EU to cut the Greeks loose as a losing proposition and get on with working closely with other troubled Euro countries to shore up their economies and support in a positive way the implementation of needed reforms. BTW, I find it astonishing that the U.S. with indebtedness of over 13 trillion dollars, much held by less than friendly governments, doesn't take any lessons from what is happening to the Greeks.
9
The German banks have had their Greek debt guaranteed by taxpayers, while Greek debt held by Greece's pension funds has been drastically devalued, and Greek pensioners now suffer.
That's not equitable.
Yes, the Greek government behaved outrageously. But German banks took outrageous risks.
The German government has very successfully protected its own interests. But does leadership in the European Union consist of acting in one's own interest, or acting in the interest of the entire European Union?
That's not equitable.
Yes, the Greek government behaved outrageously. But German banks took outrageous risks.
The German government has very successfully protected its own interests. But does leadership in the European Union consist of acting in one's own interest, or acting in the interest of the entire European Union?
1
Greek pensioners are young enough to go work like the rest of the world does.
3
Oh yes all the Greeks get their pension at 50 right? the detail that wasn't mentioned in the media was that ONLY SOME of the public sector did.The public sector is 614.000 the whole country is almost 11 millions.
Dear Germany,
Is not 35 Billion Euros at 50% better than zero Euros ?
Righteousness can be very expensive.
Is not 35 Billion Euros at 50% better than zero Euros ?
Righteousness can be very expensive.
If the Northeast U.S. hadn't bailed out Texas and Oklahoma in the 80s, and in many other circumstances over the years the stronger areas of the dollar zone hadn't "bailed out" areas that were weaker for whatever reason, then the US would be a much poorer country today than it is.
Finland will be interesting. We'll see if the German theory of economics as only an issue of morality works out here. I predict a similar trajectory for the Fins as for the Greeks and I'm wondering what the Fins moral failing is exactly.
Finland will be interesting. We'll see if the German theory of economics as only an issue of morality works out here. I predict a similar trajectory for the Fins as for the Greeks and I'm wondering what the Fins moral failing is exactly.
1
I hate to spoil all the German bashing, but I need to ask how you all think the debt solution should be handled otherwise. Every Eurozone country has debt denominated in Euros. If Greece is forgiven its debt, then rightly every other Eurozone country can ask for the same. And I am not merely talking about the usual suspects, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland. How about Germany itself? German debt currently exceeds 2 trillion Euros.
So, lets wipe out Greek debt and do the same with all other Eurozone debts at the same time. I don't think you would like to see what would happen to the world markets then. Total EU currency reform! The 2008 crisis would be a picnic compared to that.
And if we don't wipe out the entire Eurozone debt, then there would have to be justification why only the Greeks should be left off the hook and not every other country that has made the painful reforms and has already paid its 'debt' to the common currency.
No, the Eurozone only works with a common set of laws that work for everyone. Greek debt forgiveness is OK, but it can only happen if Greece leaves the Euro. Otherwise, every other EU country should be treated the same way.
So, lets wipe out Greek debt and do the same with all other Eurozone debts at the same time. I don't think you would like to see what would happen to the world markets then. Total EU currency reform! The 2008 crisis would be a picnic compared to that.
And if we don't wipe out the entire Eurozone debt, then there would have to be justification why only the Greeks should be left off the hook and not every other country that has made the painful reforms and has already paid its 'debt' to the common currency.
No, the Eurozone only works with a common set of laws that work for everyone. Greek debt forgiveness is OK, but it can only happen if Greece leaves the Euro. Otherwise, every other EU country should be treated the same way.
18
This quote is from a children's book 'Debt is a four letter word that means a four word sentence 'Be prepared for trouble!' We live in a world where a children' book addresses the problems of borrowing! Ben Franklin said it best 'A creditor has a far better memory than the borrower' Greece should attempt to fulfill their commitment.I know austerity isn't easy..personally I find it annoying due to a financial crunch of my own..no more Starbucks for me save 6.50 a pop..no more I phone sold on Craigslist..and learning to cook..no more 'let's get takeout..Austerity is definitely not fun but priorities must be set! You can't blame the person or in this case-country because it os time to pay the piper.
1
Maybe the socialists can adopt-a-Greek. Each socialist can spend their savings and work untill age 75 to support one Greek's retirement at 50, just like they expect the Germans to do
1
What it Germany treated Greece the way it treated the East after reunification? That act of generosity cost 1.3 trillion euros, and a good chunk of it was the expense of adding East Germany to the . . . wait for it . . . markzone.
As I read all the comments that say things like, "Greece made its bed and now has to lie in it," I see not a bed, but a coffin that is made up of boards and nails from many places in addition to Greece itself. What's done is done, the past is past; what exists now is a huge problem both for Greece and the EU. All I hear is children squabbling about whose fault it is instead of stepping back and together searching for a solution. It's time for the adult to step in, and Germany is no longer qualified for the job. Without adult reason and ability to see the actual problem, and the will to help the children solve it, the situation will not end well.
As with anything, what goes up must come down. There will always be someone trying to bully someone somewhere.
Yes, and I am sick of the Greeks trying to bully Germany and the rest of the world to pay for their unsustainable welfare state and lives of leisure
Greece has a smaller GDP than my neighborhood in Los Angeles. Let them go. They aren't European.
4
They *invented* Europe, silly.
What is so dismaying in the "rulings" of the German EU leaders towards Greece, and in many of the comments of German readers of this article, is the total lack of any humanitarian concern towards the people suffering most in this debt crisis. It's only about money, who owes what to whom, and whose government deserves the blame. But what about the ordinary Greek citizen - the middle class professional and the worker - who can't afford food, or health care or the monthly rent?
I knew a German couple in their 70s who were living in Germany a few years after the war. They were very young at the time, but have painful memories of hunger and destitution. They revered the US because, as they put it to me, "the Marshall Plan literally saved our lives." Sadly, 50+ years later, they forgot that, the last time we spoke about the situation in Greece. I hate to generalize but it does make you wonder about German character, at least of the generation of Schaueble.
I knew a German couple in their 70s who were living in Germany a few years after the war. They were very young at the time, but have painful memories of hunger and destitution. They revered the US because, as they put it to me, "the Marshall Plan literally saved our lives." Sadly, 50+ years later, they forgot that, the last time we spoke about the situation in Greece. I hate to generalize but it does make you wonder about German character, at least of the generation of Schaueble.
3
Some bloggers are trying to establish WHO is the culprit of the debacle.
An useless execize' Both are, GREECE due to their past irresponsibility. the EUROZONA (Germany) because of their greed based neglect of the supervision. lending money to the former so they could pay for German exports when it was already evident that Greece was broken
You can compare Germany with a father, the Greece government as a irresponsible an brainless teenager.
So, both are responsible in front of the Greece PEOPLE. But being the GERMAN the ADULT, they are the main adult!!!
An useless execize' Both are, GREECE due to their past irresponsibility. the EUROZONA (Germany) because of their greed based neglect of the supervision. lending money to the former so they could pay for German exports when it was already evident that Greece was broken
You can compare Germany with a father, the Greece government as a irresponsible an brainless teenager.
So, both are responsible in front of the Greece PEOPLE. But being the GERMAN the ADULT, they are the main adult!!!
Your analysis has a fatal flaw. Greece is NOT a child, this was just an analogy. The Greek people and the governments they elect are ACTUALLY ADULTS. THEY JUST HAVEN'T ACTED LIKE ADULTS. I DO blame those who act without forethought, who want more than they give and more than those they ask for bailouts give their own people. And where is any evidence that the Germans (we are talking about all the other member nations of the EU as well, right, who are for the most part on the same page--no one is suggesting the Greeks DIDN'T outspend their means or that they were responsible, just that the ability for them to pay at this point is unlikely and unrealistic), that this was a pre-meditated scheme for German exporters to rape Greece? Please.....
Your analysis do not address what I was telling. The "children" are not the GREEK government and mostly corrupt Politicians but the Greek people.
The German and other EUROZONE governments are equally responsible as their Greek counterparts, as I already wrote, by allowing in spite the glaring visible fact that this bobble would explode, so to be able to collect their export profits. so exploiting the poor competitivety of the latter
And, even more important, showing that the Germans are not able to learn the lessons of history. At WWI, for which Germany was much less guilty, instigated by the US President WILSON they were draconianly punished opening the path for the WW2, whilst after WW2. where Germany was guilty in the most outrageous form, the West and the US mitigated the punishment with very positive results.
Now, Germany tries to treat the Greeks as themselves were in WW!.
A very brainless attitude, which surly has opened the eyes to the weaker countries of the EUROZONE and finally the largest part of the damage will be inflicted to the GERMANS themselves, by the demise of the quicksand based and German inspired EUROZONE
The German and other EUROZONE governments are equally responsible as their Greek counterparts, as I already wrote, by allowing in spite the glaring visible fact that this bobble would explode, so to be able to collect their export profits. so exploiting the poor competitivety of the latter
And, even more important, showing that the Germans are not able to learn the lessons of history. At WWI, for which Germany was much less guilty, instigated by the US President WILSON they were draconianly punished opening the path for the WW2, whilst after WW2. where Germany was guilty in the most outrageous form, the West and the US mitigated the punishment with very positive results.
Now, Germany tries to treat the Greeks as themselves were in WW!.
A very brainless attitude, which surly has opened the eyes to the weaker countries of the EUROZONE and finally the largest part of the damage will be inflicted to the GERMANS themselves, by the demise of the quicksand based and German inspired EUROZONE
NYT this is not journalism. This is an editorial unsupported by any facts and socialist in nature. Greece: pouting spending fun-loving teenager. Germany: responsible parent. Rules. Consequences. Limits. Keeping word to keep their end of the bargain after getting from others first. Elect responsible leaders. Apparently these concepts are too difficult for the NYT liberals to comprehend.
9
"Even an Italian weekly, L’Espresso, showed him on its cover with the headline: “This man scares us, too.”
I submit that if Germany have put a little more fear of economics into the heart of some European governements that might not be so bad for their own countries citizens and for Europe as a whole.
I submit that if Germany have put a little more fear of economics into the heart of some European governements that might not be so bad for their own countries citizens and for Europe as a whole.
6
And just how well has the German economics been working for the EU so far?
That other EU nations will mark Germany off for suggesting Greece's breather from the Eurozone, seems a characteristic Times outlook.
Actually, a breather seems a very practical, clear-headed suggestion. Has the Times a more common-sensic suggestion? Greece has not had its act together since before joining the Eurozone. Staying in the Eurozone means a lot of responsibility and paying it attention. Is Greece likely to get up to speed with fewer requirements and better reflecting on what membership involves? And during a breather, various typically Greek, squabbling factions would have time to reflect on what they want, why, and the true burden of Eurozone membership.
Many Greeks think only of membership's benefits, not of its requirements. A Zorba nation has no place among responsible nations.
Actually, a breather seems a very practical, clear-headed suggestion. Has the Times a more common-sensic suggestion? Greece has not had its act together since before joining the Eurozone. Staying in the Eurozone means a lot of responsibility and paying it attention. Is Greece likely to get up to speed with fewer requirements and better reflecting on what membership involves? And during a breather, various typically Greek, squabbling factions would have time to reflect on what they want, why, and the true burden of Eurozone membership.
Many Greeks think only of membership's benefits, not of its requirements. A Zorba nation has no place among responsible nations.
9
How many of us would loan our own money to someone for the third time even though we were never repaid the first two loans and even though we fully know that the person can't possibly pay because he or she continues the same unafordable lifestyle and refuses to put the life in order?
I wouldn't and if you wouldn't too but you criticise Germany for its tough stance toward Greeks, I am sorry but you are a hypocrite.
It's easy to be charitable with other people money
I wouldn't and if you wouldn't too but you criticise Germany for its tough stance toward Greeks, I am sorry but you are a hypocrite.
It's easy to be charitable with other people money
10
It takes two to tango. The substantively one-sided blame leveled at Germany in these comments seems counterproductive, if the goal is to solve problems rather than score points and stake out ideological turf.
The Greeks elected their leaders who made the deals which got the country into this situation. As did the Germans. Both peoples had and have the possibility and, thus, the responsibility, to change the way deals are made. They can both change their own laws and governments.
We are not talking about Russia and China here.
3
"Germany Risks Its Reputation With Idea of Greece Exiting Eurozone"
So will not PK and NYT with the same idea! Aren't Grexit and austerity terms once coined by PK at NYT?
The difference between PK and the German FM is that latter is, according Spiegel today, not willing to lose his reputation and is thinking loudly in resignation if required for keeping the Euro together.
So will not PK and NYT with the same idea! Aren't Grexit and austerity terms once coined by PK at NYT?
The difference between PK and the German FM is that latter is, according Spiegel today, not willing to lose his reputation and is thinking loudly in resignation if required for keeping the Euro together.
1
Why is Germany risking its reputation ("some analysts say'), when Herr Schaeuble is suggesting the EXACT SAME THING as the NYT's esteemed Nobel Prize-winning columnist Paul Krugman? When will the NYT run articles about Prof. Krugman is risking his reputation?
11
Krugman has no reputation. His advice to borrow and spend has been totally discredited
I don't know what was Germany's plot for what they've been doing all these years. Because such mistakes as loosing Greece can be explained only by absolute stupidity and improvidence mixed with greed. Unfortunately, Greece has Tspiras, this hypocrite will surely get the most of money the UN will give Greece.
There has been no plot, but there were negotiations when the Euro was launched. Anybody who is surprised by this today is just to be congratulated for overcoming his ignorance at long last.
The ECB was modeled in the contracts after the independent Bundesbank.
The driving force were the French who wanted to tie down German economic force like Gulliver was tied down in Lilliput.
The "German reputation" is in the eyes of the beholders.
What matters are investors who believe in stable conditions and fair jurisdiction or not.
In Greece they do not believe at present for good reason.
The Euro's main weakness is the lack of coordination of economic policies.
If Schäuble has led the nonGreek EU-finance ministers to reign Greece in and save the Euro, he has facilitated what the US asked for: stability.
Now he is blamed for this (just because he is German) by people who are paid by the line that they write.
Germanophobe ideology. I am disappointed by this newspaper.
The ECB was modeled in the contracts after the independent Bundesbank.
The driving force were the French who wanted to tie down German economic force like Gulliver was tied down in Lilliput.
The "German reputation" is in the eyes of the beholders.
What matters are investors who believe in stable conditions and fair jurisdiction or not.
In Greece they do not believe at present for good reason.
The Euro's main weakness is the lack of coordination of economic policies.
If Schäuble has led the nonGreek EU-finance ministers to reign Greece in and save the Euro, he has facilitated what the US asked for: stability.
Now he is blamed for this (just because he is German) by people who are paid by the line that they write.
Germanophobe ideology. I am disappointed by this newspaper.
How do you encourage a partner country to make difficult administrative and market reforms and improve fiscal responsibility? By imposing impossibly stringent conditions on them and removing any sense of agency?
Since 2009, the eurogroup, led by Germany, has presented successive Greek governments with a series of ultimata. Eurogroup bullying has left the Greek ruling parties - of all colours - off the hook, able to blame each other, or German harshness. The centre-right and centre-left parties have collapsed as a result, and a leftwing-nationalist coalition with no experience in government has taken over. And still the creditors have not learned.
Ordinary Greeks would welcome better public administration and a more equitable tax burden. What they see the creditors imposing is higher taxes on the weakest; Sunday shop opening ( not allowed in Germany, and clearly favouring large chains like Lidl rather than local shops); clauses on where baby formula should be sold; and their public assets, even including landscape, treated as so much collateral. And in exchange for these ‘ reforms’ that benefit businesses outside Greece, they get money to pay back EZ countries that thus (indirectly) bailed out overexposed French and German banks.
Nobody implements painful reforms without ownership - and Greece, I am sure, will not be the exception. Does Europe really want to keep risking failure on a question as important as the nature of EU partnership?
Since 2009, the eurogroup, led by Germany, has presented successive Greek governments with a series of ultimata. Eurogroup bullying has left the Greek ruling parties - of all colours - off the hook, able to blame each other, or German harshness. The centre-right and centre-left parties have collapsed as a result, and a leftwing-nationalist coalition with no experience in government has taken over. And still the creditors have not learned.
Ordinary Greeks would welcome better public administration and a more equitable tax burden. What they see the creditors imposing is higher taxes on the weakest; Sunday shop opening ( not allowed in Germany, and clearly favouring large chains like Lidl rather than local shops); clauses on where baby formula should be sold; and their public assets, even including landscape, treated as so much collateral. And in exchange for these ‘ reforms’ that benefit businesses outside Greece, they get money to pay back EZ countries that thus (indirectly) bailed out overexposed French and German banks.
Nobody implements painful reforms without ownership - and Greece, I am sure, will not be the exception. Does Europe really want to keep risking failure on a question as important as the nature of EU partnership?
14
As a German I can't believe reading all those negative comments about Germany. Most Germans feel deeply with the Greek people and we DO want to help! German taxpayers pay the most (!) part in Europe and at one point there have to be some rules spending again Billions of Euros taxpayers money to a government who is not able to tax rich people at all, has no working tax office, Greeks can retire at age 55, in Germany not before age 67, greek retirement money is much higher (!) than in Germany, Greek gov called the EU-Institutions "Terrorists", Greek gov did not implement any reforms that helps economy recoving. How come a government is not able even to tax its wealthy people?
It's not fair comparing Germany after WW II debt reduction to the economic crisis in Greek when in Germany almost any city was completely bombed out! No standing house, no food, no shelter!! Of course it was our own fault having elected a dictator 77 years ago but wake up we have 2015 today!! Until today Germany is VERY thankful about the American Marshallplan and about 1/2 debt reduction in 1953 (1945 until ~1955 Germany still lay in ashes and ruins) and in 2010 Germany has paid off his immense (!) World War debt. I personally feel sorry for the Greek population and as most Germans I want them to get back to a healthy state. I as a German taxpayer I do not want to give away my tax money to a country refusing implementing any changes such as reforms like taxing the rich people.
It's not fair comparing Germany after WW II debt reduction to the economic crisis in Greek when in Germany almost any city was completely bombed out! No standing house, no food, no shelter!! Of course it was our own fault having elected a dictator 77 years ago but wake up we have 2015 today!! Until today Germany is VERY thankful about the American Marshallplan and about 1/2 debt reduction in 1953 (1945 until ~1955 Germany still lay in ashes and ruins) and in 2010 Germany has paid off his immense (!) World War debt. I personally feel sorry for the Greek population and as most Germans I want them to get back to a healthy state. I as a German taxpayer I do not want to give away my tax money to a country refusing implementing any changes such as reforms like taxing the rich people.
21
You are 100% spot on in your comments and not everyone agrees with our socialist press which loves taking money from others with no strings attached. I'm sorry Greeks elected politicians who are corrupt and complete buffoons and amateurs like Tsipiras but THEY AND THEIR CHOICES AND POLICIES are to blame and no other nation's taxpayers are going to be left holding the bag with fewer benefits themselves than the Greek's they are bailing out. Sounds like the American welfare system too.
Germany is doing what everyone has been imploring it to do for at least a decade, become more assertive and start transforming its economic dominance into political clout.
Unfortunately instead of doing this via increasing its military spending and capabilities so NATO can safeguard Europe's borders with less dependence on the US, and contributing towards the development of a cohesive EU foreign policy, Germany showed once again the accuracy of the saying "when people don't know what to do next, they do what they know".
Germany knows how to bully, and that's what it did. This could prove to be the beginning of the end of both the Euro and the EU. If, as polls show could happen, Euro-skeptic Marine Le Pen does become the next resident of the Elysee Palace, she can thank Merkel.
Unfortunately instead of doing this via increasing its military spending and capabilities so NATO can safeguard Europe's borders with less dependence on the US, and contributing towards the development of a cohesive EU foreign policy, Germany showed once again the accuracy of the saying "when people don't know what to do next, they do what they know".
Germany knows how to bully, and that's what it did. This could prove to be the beginning of the end of both the Euro and the EU. If, as polls show could happen, Euro-skeptic Marine Le Pen does become the next resident of the Elysee Palace, she can thank Merkel.
1
James Galbraith from UT Austin talking to the BBC on Monday said the deal with Greece means the end of the EZ and the EU.
2
1. The bank gave you a subprime mortgage on a house. The bank was making money buying and selling "derivatives".
2. You buy the house.
3. Your kids and their grandparents get sick. You can't make the payments--even with subprime interest rates.
4. You then get fired due to family stresses.
5. The bank forecloses--to sell "your" house and get its loan money back.
6. You've nowhere to go.
7. This is happening to the whole town. Real estate prices plummet.
8. The bank still won't get its money back. But it now owns many houses.
9. And "Misery loves company"--at least the bank is not to only one "suffering". And the CEO's are not suffering at all.
10. The bank is too big to fail--some government will bailout the bank.
11. And it now owns the town; they have both a monopoly and a monopsony.
12. The whole town cannot move to another town.
13. The bank lets the townspeople rent their houses--strings are attached--resembling Feudalism as well as Corporatism (Feudalism--without borders.)
14. Suppose the bank foresaw this scenario and made the loans anyway? Does the CEO get a promotion because it now owns a whole town--is a superstar-landlord with both a monopoly and monopsony.
15. Suppose the bank didn't foresee it? Does anyone at the bank get fired for incompetence?
Does this apply to Greece?
2. You buy the house.
3. Your kids and their grandparents get sick. You can't make the payments--even with subprime interest rates.
4. You then get fired due to family stresses.
5. The bank forecloses--to sell "your" house and get its loan money back.
6. You've nowhere to go.
7. This is happening to the whole town. Real estate prices plummet.
8. The bank still won't get its money back. But it now owns many houses.
9. And "Misery loves company"--at least the bank is not to only one "suffering". And the CEO's are not suffering at all.
10. The bank is too big to fail--some government will bailout the bank.
11. And it now owns the town; they have both a monopoly and a monopsony.
12. The whole town cannot move to another town.
13. The bank lets the townspeople rent their houses--strings are attached--resembling Feudalism as well as Corporatism (Feudalism--without borders.)
14. Suppose the bank foresaw this scenario and made the loans anyway? Does the CEO get a promotion because it now owns a whole town--is a superstar-landlord with both a monopoly and monopsony.
15. Suppose the bank didn't foresee it? Does anyone at the bank get fired for incompetence?
Does this apply to Greece?
4
Everything you have stated does apply, with the exception of #14. The CEO would MOST definitely get a raise. Same thing happened here. The banks played with funny money and the government bailed them out. The real chumps are the German and American taxpayers. We should be asking the politicians why we got stuck with the bills.
1
The article established a premise (German high-handedness), reiterated it in various ways over multiple paragraphs but never provided supporting examples of where and when said behavior occurred. It's a reasonable oremise, I just like to know where, when, by whom, amd how frequently it happened.
7
Four legs good. Two legs bad. Moooo, baaaaaa, oink! Good for Germany. Limits, rules and responsibility are not only good, but necessary to hold us all together.
6
I have had to recently make sure that I am actually on the NYT website and not mistakenly reading "The Onion".
It it weren't so disturbing, it would be actually quite funny, this headline today, as it it the New York Times itself who most actively tries to risk Germany's reputation! With its succession of half truths and hysterical innuendos on the topic of the Greece bailout and Germany's role, the NYT has firmly placed itself below the radar of serious journalism and does itself and its readers a great disservice. This topic deserves more respect and real understanding.
As an American living for over 20 years in Germany, I understand the concerns that Americans may think they have about this country. My family moved from Scotland to the US after WW2 and I grew up with endless stories of how their apartment in Glasgow had been bombed. And I know that this story is harmless compared with many others.
But what does any of this have to do with Germany in 2015?
Answer: Nothing, absolutely nothing.
Instead of continuing to „pay up and shut up“ as they have for decades, the Germans finally decide to stand up for something that is important for not just Germany, but for the future of the Eurozone.
Insightfully we see that at least your newspaper is not yet ready for that and hints, hoots and hollers ever louder about the dangers of a renaissance Nazi bogeyman.
It is silly and beneath this paper.
It it weren't so disturbing, it would be actually quite funny, this headline today, as it it the New York Times itself who most actively tries to risk Germany's reputation! With its succession of half truths and hysterical innuendos on the topic of the Greece bailout and Germany's role, the NYT has firmly placed itself below the radar of serious journalism and does itself and its readers a great disservice. This topic deserves more respect and real understanding.
As an American living for over 20 years in Germany, I understand the concerns that Americans may think they have about this country. My family moved from Scotland to the US after WW2 and I grew up with endless stories of how their apartment in Glasgow had been bombed. And I know that this story is harmless compared with many others.
But what does any of this have to do with Germany in 2015?
Answer: Nothing, absolutely nothing.
Instead of continuing to „pay up and shut up“ as they have for decades, the Germans finally decide to stand up for something that is important for not just Germany, but for the future of the Eurozone.
Insightfully we see that at least your newspaper is not yet ready for that and hints, hoots and hollers ever louder about the dangers of a renaissance Nazi bogeyman.
It is silly and beneath this paper.
26
The New York Times is reporting on the forceful statement made yesterday by Germany's own Jurgen Habermas - 86-year old renowned philosopher and one of the figureheads of European integration - as reported in The Guardian and many other reputable world news outlets:
"I fear the German government has gambled away in one night all the political capital that a better Germany had accumulated in half a century."
Remember, this NYT article is titled "Germany Risks Its Reputation with Idea of Greece Exiting the Eurozone."
"I fear the German government has gambled away in one night all the political capital that a better Germany had accumulated in half a century."
Remember, this NYT article is titled "Germany Risks Its Reputation with Idea of Greece Exiting the Eurozone."
Funny fact: Germany is often labeled as the "USA of Europe". Popular comment: 'I see, you Germans must first ask your operators at other side of the Atlantic Ocean'.
Americans, if you look at Germany, you look into a mirror.
Americans, if you look at Germany, you look into a mirror.
3
You have to wonder if this doesn't reflect a renewed German sense of a Mitteleuropa. Prussian Mitteleuropa was to be created by establishing a series of puppet states whose political, economic and military aspects would be under the control of the German Reich through the mechanism of imposed commercial treaties. If that is the future of the EU, then it could go the way of the old, short-lived Frankish Ottonian Empire. Its almost as if Germany is turning its back on that old Habsburg concept of Mitteleuropa as a cosmopolitan, multi-national realm.
2
Hey, finally a guy who understand it.
One correction. 900 years it not shortliving.
The good thing with this empire was:
It was not a national empire. You said this as well.
It defended Europe against the mongols in 1241 ( together with poland). The Mongols won here but somehow they went away anyhow.
It defended Europe against the turks in 1683 ( again together with poland).
And yes. It is an example for the todays EU, because it had regional dukes or kings, that were sometimes acting together, but most of the time acting independently.
One correction. 900 years it not shortliving.
The good thing with this empire was:
It was not a national empire. You said this as well.
It defended Europe against the mongols in 1241 ( together with poland). The Mongols won here but somehow they went away anyhow.
It defended Europe against the turks in 1683 ( again together with poland).
And yes. It is an example for the todays EU, because it had regional dukes or kings, that were sometimes acting together, but most of the time acting independently.
1
Further point: When the Iron Curtain dropped FX traders bet the exchange R-Marks for D-Marks would be between 5-4/1. He said no they are our cousins and we must help them so the exchange was 1/1. opponents said they are communist and very lazy socialites. The opponents could not have been so wrong as the answer to day is clearly evident. Dangle that profit carrot and all people will respond positively. Time heals all if given opportunity. UK debt to US from WWII was not repaid until Tony Blair was Prime Minister. Need it be mentioned how benelovant kindness causes great progress?
1
Some marriages break, don't they? Germans don't deserve this level of dysfunction from a partner.
Euro is a glorious attempt to unite a divided people, and has worked largely because the rich could subsidize the poor. Too bad that a bit of this was a loan, and not a hand out (the latter is great, it produces drastic inequalities in the countries so helped such as Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece; the former is unsavory because irresponsible people like taking stuff, and don't like returning things).
It might take time before a European identity supersedes local identities. It will help if the economic union is followed swiftly by a political union, a cultural union. Language, culture, economy, and political systems are inextricably linked and the EU fell short in some ways. The more Mediterranean the culture, the less this union worked.
In the next hundred years, maybe Europe wants to consider adopting a common language (I vote for the one spoken by the least number of people in Europe), a common political system, and a federal/state/local definition of common laws - just as does the US.
I wish Europe well. ANYTHING, even a failed experiment, is way, way better than how you have been conducting yourself in the first 50 years of the previous century. Then, you succeeded in not just destroying each other, you seemed unhesitating in destroying the planet. This is a very very minor thing.
Kalidan
Euro is a glorious attempt to unite a divided people, and has worked largely because the rich could subsidize the poor. Too bad that a bit of this was a loan, and not a hand out (the latter is great, it produces drastic inequalities in the countries so helped such as Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece; the former is unsavory because irresponsible people like taking stuff, and don't like returning things).
It might take time before a European identity supersedes local identities. It will help if the economic union is followed swiftly by a political union, a cultural union. Language, culture, economy, and political systems are inextricably linked and the EU fell short in some ways. The more Mediterranean the culture, the less this union worked.
In the next hundred years, maybe Europe wants to consider adopting a common language (I vote for the one spoken by the least number of people in Europe), a common political system, and a federal/state/local definition of common laws - just as does the US.
I wish Europe well. ANYTHING, even a failed experiment, is way, way better than how you have been conducting yourself in the first 50 years of the previous century. Then, you succeeded in not just destroying each other, you seemed unhesitating in destroying the planet. This is a very very minor thing.
Kalidan
5
Well said. I hope this situation is the wake-up call needed to initiate the soul searching the entire union must do if it is to survive.
Germany brought this on themselves by their attitude and treatment of Greece. Both Merkel and Schauble seemed to lack the self-control to not let their prejudice become so publics.
Germany has become so successful and economically powerful that it has forgotten all the countries who helped it after WWII. Germany's debt was forgiven, they got a huge write off and never had to pay all the expenses they incurred as a result of 2 wars.
Yet they managed to destroy all the good will that has been built up towards Germany by their conduct. I am sorry but they need to learn to behave better and treat other countries the way the world treated them after WWII.
Their conduct towards Greece was inexcusable and brought back all the memories of Germany before and during WWII
Germany has become so successful and economically powerful that it has forgotten all the countries who helped it after WWII. Germany's debt was forgiven, they got a huge write off and never had to pay all the expenses they incurred as a result of 2 wars.
Yet they managed to destroy all the good will that has been built up towards Germany by their conduct. I am sorry but they need to learn to behave better and treat other countries the way the world treated them after WWII.
Their conduct towards Greece was inexcusable and brought back all the memories of Germany before and during WWII
1
Do you propose for Germany to "pay up and shut up"? If you had a relative who exhibited the characteristics and behavior pattern of Greece, would you constantly, ad infinitum, lend him money? With no strings attached? No requirements to change his financial behavior?
I really do not need an answer as I pretty much know what it will be.
I really do not need an answer as I pretty much know what it will be.
Why is it with all the hoopala, there is no discussion of the source of the money? My understanding is that these vast sums don't come from the ordinary investor, but rather the ECB, which like our Fed has created the needed Euros just for this purpose. and has purposed those funds through the German and French banks. I'd like to see some honest discussion about the money.
2
How dare the Germans put their own welfare ahead of Progressives' dream of a Unified Europe! No, around the world just as in the USA, the productive must be yoked to the unproductive. A Grexit would share many wonderful qualities with America's silent majority's dream of the day the EBT cards dry up. The German people should remove Angela Merkel from office for agreeing to this latest abomination, this latest theft of the fruits of their labor.
5
The Germans have just painted a vivid picture for the rest of EU of their definition of EU- a confederacy of nations unlike the United States of America. Further, they had shown zero consideration for the suffering brethren in Greece. While I sympathize with Merkel that she must follow the mood of the German voters, we have not witnessed the best of the Germans in the last 4 weeks.
3
Chauvinism has always simmered under the surface of the European project. Whether la Grande Nation or Great Britain, Italy or Austria over decades followed with contempt, how Germany somehow got itself out of the abysmally deep hole of World War II.... with just a little help of our (American) friends. With the Greek financial crisis this chauvinism again has embarassingly come to the fore.
Mr Erlanger's reporting on the crisis, takes great care in spreading over the manifold anti-German sentiments to be heard on European streets these days. The German reading public (reading many British and French newspapers, too) is well aware that the underlying argument is being fanned by diplomatic sources feeding the media.
But Europe needs to be sober now.The treatment of this crisis should follow Jean-Jacques Rousseau's famous remark to Malesherbes: "On n'est jamais excusable de faire mal ce qu'on fait volontairement!"
In Mr Erlanger's article one can find the decisive sentences to explain the situation: " Germany always wanted the eurozone to resemble federal Germany, with solidarity dependent on everyone playing fair, by the rules, said Robin Niblett, the director of Chatham House...".
Yes, indeed, is there anything as unacceptable, as asking your "partners" to play fair and by the rules?! Of course, "...for decades, Germany saw its role as the financier and beneficiary of European unity, a combination of penance for the past and self-interest..." That may well be over now.
Mr Erlanger's reporting on the crisis, takes great care in spreading over the manifold anti-German sentiments to be heard on European streets these days. The German reading public (reading many British and French newspapers, too) is well aware that the underlying argument is being fanned by diplomatic sources feeding the media.
But Europe needs to be sober now.The treatment of this crisis should follow Jean-Jacques Rousseau's famous remark to Malesherbes: "On n'est jamais excusable de faire mal ce qu'on fait volontairement!"
In Mr Erlanger's article one can find the decisive sentences to explain the situation: " Germany always wanted the eurozone to resemble federal Germany, with solidarity dependent on everyone playing fair, by the rules, said Robin Niblett, the director of Chatham House...".
Yes, indeed, is there anything as unacceptable, as asking your "partners" to play fair and by the rules?! Of course, "...for decades, Germany saw its role as the financier and beneficiary of European unity, a combination of penance for the past and self-interest..." That may well be over now.
15
A monetary union without a political union is bound to fail. Many people warned against the Euro precisely for that reason. This situation is not a surprise to those who saw it coming a long time ago.
5
Absolutely correct - all other arguments are just noise.
Greece doesn't need Germany's generosity. It needs Germany's honesty. People need to be honest that Greece was insolvent in 2010 and that the bailouts were made to protect the banks, not in the interests of the Greek economy. Erlanger does an awful job here in his analysis.
8
Germany simply wants to be repaid. If this isn't possible Greece needs to leave the Euro zone.
10
Loans become odious and illegal only when due ? Better to print your own currency and collect taxes while practicing sound economics rather than a game theory involving capital controls.
9
There are two sides to every trade and investors made their bets. Would any reasonable investor believe this nation of low employment, few natural resources, an aging population, and that cheats on taxes as a matter of pride would pay all that money back?
Additionally, Greece took the money and subsequently blew it. They have totally wasted it and burned the lenders. But what rational lender would have allowed them into this mess in the first place? Only one with their own head in the sand.
Despite all the blustering, and the market volatility that results, in the end those holding the paper will have to take a haircut, and Greece will have to figure out how to exist in the Zone on less money. No country in their right mind will exit: together all benefit. Alone they will sink like the rest of the region, to the net effect of social and political instability, a rise in extremism and terrorism, and an addition of risk in the world.
There is no other way than to cut the debt, and for Greece to stay in the Union. It's just a matter of time before Germany and Greece stop denying their respective realities and decide the argument is finished.
Additionally, Greece took the money and subsequently blew it. They have totally wasted it and burned the lenders. But what rational lender would have allowed them into this mess in the first place? Only one with their own head in the sand.
Despite all the blustering, and the market volatility that results, in the end those holding the paper will have to take a haircut, and Greece will have to figure out how to exist in the Zone on less money. No country in their right mind will exit: together all benefit. Alone they will sink like the rest of the region, to the net effect of social and political instability, a rise in extremism and terrorism, and an addition of risk in the world.
There is no other way than to cut the debt, and for Greece to stay in the Union. It's just a matter of time before Germany and Greece stop denying their respective realities and decide the argument is finished.
3
I wonder sometimes if all this is really about money. USE is a huge project. It's about geopolitics and giving up nationalities. This project will go on. The EU has so far democratic deficits and a bad PR. Some politians seem to separate people. Where is the compassion? To let the normal people suffer for structures of a corrupted elite? A lack of love in childhood? I hope for the best for our wonderfull primate species in this atomic world. LeChaim
1
Typical of the left leaning NYT which always is in favor of giving away other people's money. A take based on the art of wishful thinking.
12
where is the outrage at Goldman Sachs, which exacerbated this problem? http://www.thenation.com/article/goldmans-greek-gambit/
11
What's this? An anti-bank, anti-capitalist article at the Nation? I never would have expected that
if there is a misstep, it is being too soft on Greece. Greece needs to leave the Euro, not necessarily EU, which she should have never been allowed into in the first place.
8
Get real. Beware of Greeks making agreements.
Getting Greeks to pay their taxes, retire at 65 years old or after, clear out ghost government employees from government payrolls, stop taking bribes for award of government contracts, and cease regulating in favor of existing business who seek to avoid competition was always going to take the financial equivalent of dropping a hydrogen bomb on the Acropolis.
About half way through the Greeks time of trial, their former finance minister was found to have had a list of the worst tax evaders from Christine Lagarde resting in his desk drawer for years, never having seen the light of day -- excepting for editing out the names of a few favored parties. The little bugger escaped being sentenced to jail in March.
To ensure compliance this time, I'd start by moving the Parthenon to the Tiergarten, ladle out debt relief only as compliance became clear and restore the the Parthenon to the Acropolis only when the Greeks were operating a modern economy and competent government to the satisfaction of the average schwäbische Hausfrau.
Then Mrs. Merkel might consider digging up and reviving Aristophanes to give him an opportunity to rewrite his last and poorly received comedy entitled "Wealth." Maybe giving a lead role to the theatrical, married-to-money, former finance minister, Yanis Varoufinkis.
Getting Greeks to pay their taxes, retire at 65 years old or after, clear out ghost government employees from government payrolls, stop taking bribes for award of government contracts, and cease regulating in favor of existing business who seek to avoid competition was always going to take the financial equivalent of dropping a hydrogen bomb on the Acropolis.
About half way through the Greeks time of trial, their former finance minister was found to have had a list of the worst tax evaders from Christine Lagarde resting in his desk drawer for years, never having seen the light of day -- excepting for editing out the names of a few favored parties. The little bugger escaped being sentenced to jail in March.
To ensure compliance this time, I'd start by moving the Parthenon to the Tiergarten, ladle out debt relief only as compliance became clear and restore the the Parthenon to the Acropolis only when the Greeks were operating a modern economy and competent government to the satisfaction of the average schwäbische Hausfrau.
Then Mrs. Merkel might consider digging up and reviving Aristophanes to give him an opportunity to rewrite his last and poorly received comedy entitled "Wealth." Maybe giving a lead role to the theatrical, married-to-money, former finance minister, Yanis Varoufinkis.
11
Perhaps the next time Mr. Erlanger authors an article like this, it is more appropriately included among Mr. Krugman and Mr. Brooks op-ed pieces.
Thank you, Germany, for being the parent who showed up in the room. Their actions, while being vilified by this publication and others, will ultimately not only save Greece and the euro, but bring them even more respect, even if that respect is only admitted in private.
Thank you, Germany, for being the parent who showed up in the room. Their actions, while being vilified by this publication and others, will ultimately not only save Greece and the euro, but bring them even more respect, even if that respect is only admitted in private.
20
Wishful thinking. Without debt forgiveness, as happened to Germany after two wars they started, Greece will be forced to leave the EURO as they voted to do on July 5th. They really have no other choice.
Germany is doing the right thing--now. What it should have done some time ago was vote against Greece from become an EU member. It wasn't qualified then and certainly isn't now.
13
There's more going on with Germany than this article alludes to.
Why did Germany buy the Greek bonds of private banks and investors and consequently put the onus of losing money onto its own taxpayers if not for control of the discussion? And what is in it for Merkel/Schauble to have bailed out these investors who made these bad choices?
Why did Germany buy the Greek bonds of private banks and investors and consequently put the onus of losing money onto its own taxpayers if not for control of the discussion? And what is in it for Merkel/Schauble to have bailed out these investors who made these bad choices?
8
tis the end of Eurozone. Grazie Merkel..
1
The only analysts who think Germany is wrong are those socialists who love to spend other peoples money in their pursuit os the socialist nirvana. Greece made their own bed with out of control social programs and spending and now they want someone else to pay the bills.
13
Maybe Germany should leave the EZ, not Greece. Both would be better off that way; the euro would decrease in value and the EZ would be benefit. Germany, with their new DEM would be better off as well, no Greece and difficult EZ members to worry about.
But, with Mr. Schaeuble set on Grexit, Germany will not leave.
Too bad, for the rest of us. A dysfunctional EZ is in no one's interest.
But, with Mr. Schaeuble set on Grexit, Germany will not leave.
Too bad, for the rest of us. A dysfunctional EZ is in no one's interest.
1
Germany is not the problem. Greece is the problem. Don't judge the hand that feeds you. I really think this conversation is more of a back-door way for people across Europe to express their understandably fraught fascination with Berlin's return to the center of European power. All the warnings against the Pollyanna version of the euro were issued and ignored. Linking Europe's fortunes to Germany has not so much reigned in ever-efficient Berlin as shackled the rest of laissez faire Europe.
10
Greece needs to do what's good for Greece in the future. The German minister is probably correct that Greece should not be tied to the Euro. As it now stands, they have no currency flexibility at all. The main thing Greece needs is to develop its economy and create jobs, which would be best served by reverting to the drachma.
10
This article is should have mentioned some polls. Maybe this one conducted by Ipsos: Whereas only 24 per cent of French people have faith in the way the French president François Hollande is handling the ongoing crisis, 44 per cent are confident that Merkel will lead the way out of the storm. So who is really losing its reputation? Not Germany.
16
The real issue is the Greeks are not willing to do anything and that is stopping the progress. No reforms, no privatizations, retirement at 55, you name it they will not do anything in return. How long can they seriously expect Europe to keep on paying for them? When is it their turn to step up and do something? There really have been some truly vile comments about Angela Merkel and Germany as if it is her/their fault. There is not a single EU country that supports what Greece is doing and how their leader is behaving. As in any deal, the receiver of money/help has to offer something in return otherwise everything falls apart. The attitude of Tipsaris is nothing short of disgraceful and his misguided people will end up paying a very high price for it.
15
For many years New Yorkers have paid taxes to pay for federal support in many US States. In the UK, Londoners have paid taxes for similar support throughout the rest of the UK for two hundred years. Then in 2008 the federal / UK government support went to help these two financial centres withstand the crash. That's what happens in a properly functioning single currency area. Try treating Alaska or Scotland like the EZ is treating Greece!
You need to look beyond the simplistic Greek-bashing headlines about Greece. The malfunctioning of the euro since its inception has led to a situation where Greek exports are double the price they should be and imports half the price they should be - they are unable to earn their way out of recession, let alone pay off either the interest or the debts.
If the Eurozone won't / can't be like the USD or GBP and take a Marshall Aid view of Greece then Greece would be better outside the Euro. The 'offer' of a 'velvet Grexit' (a managed exit and amicable default should be grasped in both hands.
You need to look beyond the simplistic Greek-bashing headlines about Greece. The malfunctioning of the euro since its inception has led to a situation where Greek exports are double the price they should be and imports half the price they should be - they are unable to earn their way out of recession, let alone pay off either the interest or the debts.
If the Eurozone won't / can't be like the USD or GBP and take a Marshall Aid view of Greece then Greece would be better outside the Euro. The 'offer' of a 'velvet Grexit' (a managed exit and amicable default should be grasped in both hands.
15
Please do not confuse the United States of America with the EU. While you are a one (!) huge country (USA)- we are still NOT theUnited States of Europe. We wish we woyld be already there but we are not . So we are all different (!) countries with a European soul. As not all EU countries follow EU rules (reforms etc) we have this huge problems and misunderstandings now.
3
Well said. The problem is systemic in the management of the Euro - it needs a more practical and democratic policy to be successful.
1
In addition to my other comment I would like to stress that each European country has its own states that may need to be bailed out by each own country individually. So bailing out Greek (another country, not state!!) with again billions of EU- taxpayer money with Germany the largest payer only can be done following EU rules, e.g. taxing rich people, retirement at 67 and not 55 (as possible in Greek), implementing a functioning tax office...so please try to avoid comparing the United States of America (one huge country) to the European Union (many culturally different countries that hope one day becoming the USE- Unfortunately we are NOT there yet!)
1
Greece has been irresponsible in its financial affairs. It's lived "high on the hog" for a long time on other people's money and now wants to be let off the hook. I'm not a bit sympathetic. Especially at the thought of civil servants retiring st full pay at 55. I worked till 66 and still work part time. Aside from the morality of it all, out of the EU Greek currency will devalue greatly against the euro making it a cheap vacation and manufacturing location. It's true Greeks will have to pay more for the luxuries they are accustomed to but that's the price of irresponsibility. If Putin wants to take on another free loader that will serve American interests as well.
9
how would we as a nation react if it were OUR tax money that was being spent to prop up the economy of a nation that for years has refused to reform it's economic system? greece is a nation whose people (for whom most commentators evince a great deal of sympathy) want to continue retiring at 50 and who, rich and poor alike, do not want to pay taxes.
i believe that germany is in a no win situation, exacerbated by the election of mr. tsipras. greece, however, has a choice, although a draconian one. that choice is to leave the euro zone, downsize its bloated bureaucracy, increase takes on the rich and the upper middle class, and reform its pension system.
as for the US and it's foreign policy. i believe that our leaders should turn their attention to puerto rico.
i believe that germany is in a no win situation, exacerbated by the election of mr. tsipras. greece, however, has a choice, although a draconian one. that choice is to leave the euro zone, downsize its bloated bureaucracy, increase takes on the rich and the upper middle class, and reform its pension system.
as for the US and it's foreign policy. i believe that our leaders should turn their attention to puerto rico.
14
We wouldn't be at this juncture, if not for the Euro. The Euro came about as a result of the end of the Cold War, when the former Soviet Union offered West Germany reunification. France said, yes on one condition, to Germany: You give up the Deutschmark and the Bundesbank and agree to join a common European Currency. Germany reluctantly agreed. And then, this was kept secret for 8 years until 1998, when the former German Chancellor, Helmut Kohl, published some of the correspondence, which was in turn published by DER SPIEGEL, which co-operates with the NYTimes. Some time ago, the Bundesbank President at the time said that neither Kohl, nor Mitterrand, the French President at the time, were interested in economics. Economics was seen as a distraction, they wanted to get into the history books. Some years ago, Le Figaro, a French newspaper called the Euro a 2nd Versailles, knowing full well that nuking the Bundesbank and trying to control Germany like that would not work eventually. Besides, it was not necessary either. The US, Russia, the UK and France had, and today have, nuclear arsenals, Germany does not. So Germany, then, and now poses no threat. As we can all see today, the Euro makes no sense, as long as fiscal policies are not harmonised, apart from the disagreements about Keynes / Hayek. And that harmonisation may never happen. Northern Europe would have thrived without the common currency, it lived well before its introduction. The Euro should be scrapped.
4
Just imagine if Truman/Marshall has acted this way towards Germany instead of the Marshall Plan? Gemany would still be paying us interest.
3
Greece already received more then 30 times the Marshall Plan Money.
Marshall Plan: 5% of US GdP for 19 countries
Greece Funding: 3% of EZ GdP for 1 (!) country.
Just imagine Germany would truly act according to the Marshall Plan?
Marshall Plan: 5% of US GdP for 19 countries
Greece Funding: 3% of EZ GdP for 1 (!) country.
Just imagine Germany would truly act according to the Marshall Plan?
1
The Marshall Plan was a kick-start, not a longstanding funding. And we multiplied the economic return on our own. We made something out of this investment of the american citizen, and we have shown gratitude for it since then - that's the difference.
Germany is far from alone is thinking Greece would be better outside the Eurozone. It is much more difficult for a country to get out of this economic mess with no control over its money. Saying that has nothing to do with morality
9
Ok, let's call a spade, a spade.
The only chance Greece has to transform an economic culture so deeply dysfunctional is to accept discipline imposed from outside. They obviously need adult supervision. The Greek parliament has recently voted to accept that supervision. I am sure that has included, for many Greek legislators, a "wink and a nod." The coming negotiations must include snapback provisions or the whole package will be meaningless. The negotiations must also include significant debt relief, in some form, and humanitarian aid.
The only chance Greece has to transform an economic culture so deeply dysfunctional is to accept discipline imposed from outside. They obviously need adult supervision. The Greek parliament has recently voted to accept that supervision. I am sure that has included, for many Greek legislators, a "wink and a nod." The coming negotiations must include snapback provisions or the whole package will be meaningless. The negotiations must also include significant debt relief, in some form, and humanitarian aid.
12
We must not forget the great old Indian (from Indian treatises on Statecraft) dictum that perception of unequal treatment or inequality is a potent danger to a state or government. There is now a strong belief that the Greeks are trying to get away with not doing their share for the EU, namely, take loans from the other member countries and get away with not paying it back! Any organization or a group or a country suffers when some begin to feel that some others are getting more than what they deserve or they (themselves) are getting lesser than what they deserve. The Germans and the Dutch and the Finlanders have lived within their means, and the Greeks now give the impression that they are trying to take a free ride in not returning the hard-earned money of the EU members who lived frugally and saved, and extended loans to Greeks with the condition that these loans would be paid back with the interests due and owing. In life and in the arena of world politics -- the principle still stands that you must pay what you owe! Greece can pay, in the process they can also change many things in their country's politics that need changing badly!
7
A couple of things that don't make sense to me about all this...
First, the notion that Germany is the bad guy here. Greece has serious structural problems that continue to stand in the way of its ability to pay its debts (e.g., the richest corporations/people avoid paying most of the taxes they should be paying). On top of that, you've got a Greek government that continues to project the attitude that they want something for nothing. Someone has to take a hard line with Greece, if Greece truly desires to remain in the Eurozone. The nations in the EU other than Germany seem too feckless to take the hard line with Greece that's needed. So, Germany's left having to be the heavy.
Second, a lot of people continue to equate Greece's debt crisis with the mortgage crisis of a few years ago. Really? The Greek government is an uninformed borrower, ignorant of finances, that's been taken advantage of by banks charging usury rates and burying disadvantageous borrwing terms in the fine print of lending agreements? For the analogy to hold true, the Greek government would have to be woefully incompetent. We're talking about senior government officials here. If they truly have been taken advantage of by lenders because they didn't read the fine print or because they don't understand how loans work, then Greece's situation is absolutely hopeless.
First, the notion that Germany is the bad guy here. Greece has serious structural problems that continue to stand in the way of its ability to pay its debts (e.g., the richest corporations/people avoid paying most of the taxes they should be paying). On top of that, you've got a Greek government that continues to project the attitude that they want something for nothing. Someone has to take a hard line with Greece, if Greece truly desires to remain in the Eurozone. The nations in the EU other than Germany seem too feckless to take the hard line with Greece that's needed. So, Germany's left having to be the heavy.
Second, a lot of people continue to equate Greece's debt crisis with the mortgage crisis of a few years ago. Really? The Greek government is an uninformed borrower, ignorant of finances, that's been taken advantage of by banks charging usury rates and burying disadvantageous borrwing terms in the fine print of lending agreements? For the analogy to hold true, the Greek government would have to be woefully incompetent. We're talking about senior government officials here. If they truly have been taken advantage of by lenders because they didn't read the fine print or because they don't understand how loans work, then Greece's situation is absolutely hopeless.
19
I have a problem with Germany seemingly being held accountable for Greece's financial woes. Oddly, I sense a parallel here in the United States. Greece has been living on the teat of liberalism/socialism essentially spending other countries money while not being willing to tax its own appropriately to pay for its lifestyle. Now that the time for repayment has come no one wants to put on their grown up pants and pay. Greece expects Germany, and Europe, to pay and it seems the people of Greece, in voting down austerity and repayment of any rescue funds, think the welfare teat of Europe should continue to support them with little or no consequence. That is my take on what I've read, I'm no expert. It's rough that Germany must play "bad cop" but how long does one expect the beneficiary of financial support to abuse that support? It seems Germany is forcing Greece to own up to its financial obligations and there is a cost. My American parallel is that we are on the same spending path with no end in sight. Someone must pay the bill for all that is spent. That day is not going to be pretty. I certainly wish that when my accounts got down to deficits I could raise my debt limit or print more money. Germany may be wrong in expecting Greece to leave the EU but someone has to be the grown up. The people of Greece are voting down austerity terms fully knowing the outcome.
13
The best chance for Greece to avoid decades of German backed poverty is to dump the Euro so they can manage their own economy. German methods don't work everywhere, no matter how many times the Germans say so.
1
The fact that Germany is absolutely correct in that Greece has no business in the Euro seems to not matter.
There should be a second tier of membership in the EU for states that do not measure up financially or economically for full membership.
It would provide them with some of the benefits of EU but not be as stringent regarding its finances.
And Greece would be better off with their own currency that is not overvalued like the Euro.
There should be a second tier of membership in the EU for states that do not measure up financially or economically for full membership.
It would provide them with some of the benefits of EU but not be as stringent regarding its finances.
And Greece would be better off with their own currency that is not overvalued like the Euro.
10
" Germany Risks Its Reputation With Idea of Greece Exiting Eurozone."
Herr Schauble economic-financial position on the Greek question is analytically correct.
If Greece exits the eurozone, two positive outcomes are expected to happen.
First, the Greek economic authority regains control of monetary policy. A fundamental macro economic policy instrument to sustain fiscal policy and promote sustainable economic growth.
Second, Greece departure removes the main source of monetary-financial instability at the eurozone. The common currency will be significantly strengthened.
Finally, Grexit will have a powerful demonstration effect at the European Union. The admission criteria to eurozone admission will be more rigorous. More importantly, eurozone countries with lax fiscal policies will be warned about the consequences of unsustainable public debt.
Herr Schauble economic-financial position on the Greek question is analytically correct.
If Greece exits the eurozone, two positive outcomes are expected to happen.
First, the Greek economic authority regains control of monetary policy. A fundamental macro economic policy instrument to sustain fiscal policy and promote sustainable economic growth.
Second, Greece departure removes the main source of monetary-financial instability at the eurozone. The common currency will be significantly strengthened.
Finally, Grexit will have a powerful demonstration effect at the European Union. The admission criteria to eurozone admission will be more rigorous. More importantly, eurozone countries with lax fiscal policies will be warned about the consequences of unsustainable public debt.
14
What you seem to be saying is that the Eurozone should become more like Germany is now - more rigid and insular. I don't think that will work with independent, sovereign nations as members. The Eurozone needs more democracy, especially in control of the common currency, for it to survive let alone succeed.
1
European Central Banks (ECB) who finance countries into defaulting on its debt is the beginning of a domino effect for Europe, American and the Western banking systems. The ECB out of greed knowingly gave bad loans to Greece who knowingly had bad credit, but none-the-less accepted these loans. That makes the Europe’s ECB and EU governments, co-partners in Greece’s recession. These bad business practices are not just by German, but the Western Banks and are especially dangerous in this time of East/West recession that will ultimately lead to causing countries to use different reserve currencies other than Euro or US dollar.
Our country and its allies have divided the world into opposing forces by directly interring in the affairs of other countries with sanctions, terrorists and insurgents, war, all invasion all to protect the flow of energy and countries that use US Petro dollars. BRICKS will be in direct competition for a world’s new reserved currency and consequently a major threat to the ECB, IMF, WB and the US.
Our country and its allies have divided the world into opposing forces by directly interring in the affairs of other countries with sanctions, terrorists and insurgents, war, all invasion all to protect the flow of energy and countries that use US Petro dollars. BRICKS will be in direct competition for a world’s new reserved currency and consequently a major threat to the ECB, IMF, WB and the US.
1
I wasn't ever alive when Germany was a monster - a brutal nation greedy to take over the entire world. Sometimes I wonder if this is how that all started and it makes me both glad for the EU and worried about its future.
2
Germany's reputation with Europe is only part of the problem. Of much more potential significance is Europe's reputation with Germany.
The "prior actions" required of Greece for its latest bailout include "safeguarding the legal independence for Greece ELSAT - the statistic office" and "return of the Troika to Athens" so that honest and competent personnel can monitor Greek economic developments firsthand. I find this astonishing, considering the well-established fraud perpetrated by the Greek government to get into the Eurozone in the first place and the years of negotiation on Greek "reforms."
The Euro system in its current form was not desired by Germany and was intended to weaken Germany economically by using Germany's economic strength to provide other countries with lower rates of interest. Germany accepted, among other things, equal voting rights for all Eurozone members on the Governing Council of the European Central Bank, thus equating German voting power to that of the island of Malta. Throughout the Euro crisis, Germany has been consistently outvoted by a block of countries that include the biggest European debtor countries.
Nevertheless, many readers of major news sources are repeatedly told that Germany dominates Europe. That is the sub rosa message of Mr. Erlanger's article as well.
The "prior actions" required of Greece for its latest bailout include "safeguarding the legal independence for Greece ELSAT - the statistic office" and "return of the Troika to Athens" so that honest and competent personnel can monitor Greek economic developments firsthand. I find this astonishing, considering the well-established fraud perpetrated by the Greek government to get into the Eurozone in the first place and the years of negotiation on Greek "reforms."
The Euro system in its current form was not desired by Germany and was intended to weaken Germany economically by using Germany's economic strength to provide other countries with lower rates of interest. Germany accepted, among other things, equal voting rights for all Eurozone members on the Governing Council of the European Central Bank, thus equating German voting power to that of the island of Malta. Throughout the Euro crisis, Germany has been consistently outvoted by a block of countries that include the biggest European debtor countries.
Nevertheless, many readers of major news sources are repeatedly told that Germany dominates Europe. That is the sub rosa message of Mr. Erlanger's article as well.
30
The Guardian reported on 7.15.15 that at every Angela Merkel press conference over the past weeks someone in the audience shouts "what about World Wars I and II?"
On Greek losses: "Postwar: A History of Europe Since 1945," Tony Judt - "440,000 civilian lives lost, two-thirds of Greece's vital merchant marine fleet was lost, one-third of its forests were ruined, one thousand villages were obliterated. Meanwhile, the German policy of setting occupation-cost payments according to German military needs rather than the Greek capacity to pay, generated hyper-inflation."...."Taking all deaths civilian and military alike...Greece losses were among the worst...suffering a rate of loss of 1/14."
1953, less than a decade after World War II, the Greek finance minister signed an accord with the Allied nations to cancel 50% of Germany's debt to Greece. According to the French economist Thomas Piketty: "Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts!"
It is Germany (Angela Merkel and Wolfgang Schauble) who should feel the moral imperative to make reparations to the Greek people. Now is their opportunity.
On Greek losses: "Postwar: A History of Europe Since 1945," Tony Judt - "440,000 civilian lives lost, two-thirds of Greece's vital merchant marine fleet was lost, one-third of its forests were ruined, one thousand villages were obliterated. Meanwhile, the German policy of setting occupation-cost payments according to German military needs rather than the Greek capacity to pay, generated hyper-inflation."...."Taking all deaths civilian and military alike...Greece losses were among the worst...suffering a rate of loss of 1/14."
1953, less than a decade after World War II, the Greek finance minister signed an accord with the Allied nations to cancel 50% of Germany's debt to Greece. According to the French economist Thomas Piketty: "Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts!"
It is Germany (Angela Merkel and Wolfgang Schauble) who should feel the moral imperative to make reparations to the Greek people. Now is their opportunity.
5
Well, why always coming to this reparation questions?
We cannot make it unhappen what we did. And we cannot calculate the value for this. If we want to pay for it we only could kill ourselfs as repair action. Unfortunately we still like to live.
But we can try to help now greece, what we really do
What we cannot do is to pay a calculation of greece about 279bn, that is coming from a left-nationalistic government, who seems to be able to give a price tag for a dead person. If these guys want to sell its dead of the WW, it is as well a tricky story for them.
1. The EDES attacked ELAS (both greek partisan organisations) during the war with the conquered weapons from the italians. This shows, how unified these guys are/were.
As you know, the germans are not nice. And we maybe would ask for a deduction of these dead greek heroes that were killed by the other greek heroes. But i agree, this we should not do.
2. I agree that we need to pay back the 11 bns we took away from them. This will hopefully done, after these guys are coming back to normal behavour.
3. I would like to remind you of your part in this story during the civil war in greece from 1946 - 1949. There 150.000 greeks were killed as well. With support of different "good" countries. US and UK took part on one side.
The Germans were at that point of time not in greece any longer. We just came back later again as tourists.
We cannot make it unhappen what we did. And we cannot calculate the value for this. If we want to pay for it we only could kill ourselfs as repair action. Unfortunately we still like to live.
But we can try to help now greece, what we really do
What we cannot do is to pay a calculation of greece about 279bn, that is coming from a left-nationalistic government, who seems to be able to give a price tag for a dead person. If these guys want to sell its dead of the WW, it is as well a tricky story for them.
1. The EDES attacked ELAS (both greek partisan organisations) during the war with the conquered weapons from the italians. This shows, how unified these guys are/were.
As you know, the germans are not nice. And we maybe would ask for a deduction of these dead greek heroes that were killed by the other greek heroes. But i agree, this we should not do.
2. I agree that we need to pay back the 11 bns we took away from them. This will hopefully done, after these guys are coming back to normal behavour.
3. I would like to remind you of your part in this story during the civil war in greece from 1946 - 1949. There 150.000 greeks were killed as well. With support of different "good" countries. US and UK took part on one side.
The Germans were at that point of time not in greece any longer. We just came back later again as tourists.
Picketty's peobelm isn't German debt that was forgiven, his problem is that his radical leftist polices have failed again. Greece proves, for the 10,000th time, that socialism doesn't work. His nonsense on inequality has been totally refuted, he needs another way to get in the headlines
I think it's more that corruption and imposed austerity doesn't work.
At the conclusion of WWI Great Brittan & France looted German assets mainly gold telling them they must recuperate on their own. Inflation went rapid with a wagon load or Reith marks not buying a load of flour. Along came savvy politicians-Hitler-promising a Voltz wagon in every garage-citizens followed. Now Germany, major beneficiary of the Euro Zone, replaces Great Brittan & France will be the demise of the Euro Zone ever so slowly & painfully with Italy, Spain & Portugal to follow. A union has never survived.
Wolfgang Schäuble's view was, and probably still is, that Greece should take a sabbatical from the Euro to sort itself out and then, hopefully, apply to rejoin. His position is much less dictatorial than the media make out. Greece enjoys considerable goodwill among ordinary folk in Europe who would have been delighted to see her stick by the clear message of the referendum, that would have been democracy, what has happened is not democracy.
10
The referendum was about accepting a bailout offer, not about leaving the Eurozone. Unfortunately, what they got was a worse offer.
As written in a article in Europe yesterday Instead of Greece leaving the Euro Zone tell Germany to leave the Euro Zone instead.
How much longer will the citizens of the healthy economic States tolerate the federal government stealing their money and transferring it to the citizens in weaker economic States?
8
Forever, I hope. Otherwise we will be kicking out states until there are none left.
Maybe Germany at this point is just brutally honest with themselves and the world in general. One doesn't help the spoiled brat of a son by giving him more money. Sometimes you have to cut your losses and with Greece it's not just giving a helping hand but a lifelong commitment in financing there country and this is what the Germans don't want to commit too.
If Greece doesn't want to live with the terms of the loans given to them then very simply no more loans. I think it's actually more abhorrent that the rest of the world seemingly wants to come down on Germany (a country that at least can balance a budget) because it is fiscally responsible.
If Greece doesn't want to live with the terms of the loans given to them then very simply no more loans. I think it's actually more abhorrent that the rest of the world seemingly wants to come down on Germany (a country that at least can balance a budget) because it is fiscally responsible.
8
It is interesting that one important fact is often missing in many opinion pieces on Germany with respect to the Greek crisis. The fact that Greece was given a debt relief of 100 billion euros in 2012 to make their debt more sustainable. The losers in that deal were mainly foreign banks who lost 70% of their money. But Greece squandered all these concessions by making no real reforms. Their loan terms were extremely generous for a country with a poor credit rating. And how long are they going to play up the Nazi victim card? Greece was compensated for world war 2 by being admitted into the EU in 1981 and is the biggest recipient of EU subsidies while Germany is the largest net donor. You can see that Europe already has provisions for fiscal transfers, but the fact is Greece has no real industry to speak of to fund their massive welfare state without external cash infusions. When a huge chunk of your economy depends on govt spending and pensioners you are in serious trouble.
13
"Germany always wanted the eurozone to resemble federal Germany, with solidarity dependent on everyone playing fair, by the rules..."
If the eurozone resembled federal Germany, it would have a eurobond, all banks would be capitalized with it and centrally guaranteed, and a Länderfinanzausgleich, an elaborate system of fiscal transfers between the federal states.
But the eurozone does not have any of these institutions, and it was always Germany that blocked them, claiming that they would create moral hazard (i.e. an incentive for fiscally weaker states to free ride on the stronger ones).
So the Germans should be the first ones to understand why the eurozone does not work like the Federal Republic of Germany.
If the eurozone resembled federal Germany, it would have a eurobond, all banks would be capitalized with it and centrally guaranteed, and a Länderfinanzausgleich, an elaborate system of fiscal transfers between the federal states.
But the eurozone does not have any of these institutions, and it was always Germany that blocked them, claiming that they would create moral hazard (i.e. an incentive for fiscally weaker states to free ride on the stronger ones).
So the Germans should be the first ones to understand why the eurozone does not work like the Federal Republic of Germany.
1
This is far-left nonsense, both in Europe, and among the U.S. far-left as well. We aren't going to hear as much in the pages of the NY Times about those in Europe who applaud Germany's stance towards Greece, a perpetual basket-case of a nation, one which is dishonest to its core, and one which wants international charity, but doesn't want it to be labeled as such. Too bad this new bailout, which Germany approved, isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference to Greece's chances at recovery. If the Greeks haven't figured out what good governance is after 2,000 years of trying, I don't think they will any time soon.
10
This "lending" by IMF, the World Bank and the rest of the banksters involved is nothing short of criminal. Greece was lent money at a much higher interest rate than any other of the debtors. WHY??? If you look at a country's economy, you can easily ascertain whether or not they will be able to repay hundreds of billions of Euros in interest in addition to the tens of billions of actual loan.
It's indecent and it's absurd. In addition, it was Germany's greed that instigated the entire thing. Germany and its ever-increasing demand for more and more markets for its exports. Germany and its abusive demand for austerity German style.
Greece is not Germany . Greece will never be Germany. To deny Greece its rights as a sovereign nation is indicative of Germany's "uber alles" mentality that's been there all along. What Greece is now is the whipping boy. Germany, the IMF and the rest of the banksters cannot allow Greece to walk away from its mega debt or to get off easy in any way. Greece is a warning to Spain, Puerto Rico and anyone else who is having trouble dancing the dance.
The reality is that Greece would be better out of the Eurozone but so would everyone else - except Germany, of course.
It's indecent and it's absurd. In addition, it was Germany's greed that instigated the entire thing. Germany and its ever-increasing demand for more and more markets for its exports. Germany and its abusive demand for austerity German style.
Greece is not Germany . Greece will never be Germany. To deny Greece its rights as a sovereign nation is indicative of Germany's "uber alles" mentality that's been there all along. What Greece is now is the whipping boy. Germany, the IMF and the rest of the banksters cannot allow Greece to walk away from its mega debt or to get off easy in any way. Greece is a warning to Spain, Puerto Rico and anyone else who is having trouble dancing the dance.
The reality is that Greece would be better out of the Eurozone but so would everyone else - except Germany, of course.
3
Greece was lent money at higher rates because they are a greater risk!!! This is basic economics 101! It is stunning that so basic a concept eludes you!
This article focused, I think errantly, on a probably transient feeling towards Germany, In fact, the Germans will contribute, yet again, more to Greece's bailout than any other nation and when Greece gets its reduction in debt, that will be more Germany's expense than for any other nation. This article's hubris is in not making that piont strongly.
On the side of righting the Greek economy are enormous changes that Greece needs that must be shepherded by outsiders because Greece has proven itself incapable of doing so without hellfire literally threatening to burn their house down. Schauble, perhaps more so than Merkle, will need to be the insistent parent that straightens the incorrigible Greece but, if Greece can work through the many changes it needs to implement and in commiting to doing so, can receive debt forgiveness of an appropriate amount, Greece can become a great state within a slowly more Federalist Europe.
And, clearly Europe needs to be more Federalist.
On the side of righting the Greek economy are enormous changes that Greece needs that must be shepherded by outsiders because Greece has proven itself incapable of doing so without hellfire literally threatening to burn their house down. Schauble, perhaps more so than Merkle, will need to be the insistent parent that straightens the incorrigible Greece but, if Greece can work through the many changes it needs to implement and in commiting to doing so, can receive debt forgiveness of an appropriate amount, Greece can become a great state within a slowly more Federalist Europe.
And, clearly Europe needs to be more Federalist.
5
Lets remember Washington recomendarion to NYC
"Drop dead"
Gernany is right, the Eurozone should be rules based, and if one country does not like the idea, just leave
"Drop dead"
Gernany is right, the Eurozone should be rules based, and if one country does not like the idea, just leave
5
I am surprised how openly hostile both published and public opinion with respect to Germany is. There is a lot of talk how Germans are sticklers to rules. I am not sure "rules" is the right word. There have been put contracts in place when the Euro was created. These contracts were designed to prevent large scale transfers from one country to others, and printing money (a.k.a. quantitative easing) by the central bank.
These contracts are ignored a lot recently by the ECB and the EU. It is these contracts, or at least the spirit of them, the Germans are trying to stick to.
The Euro was forced on Germany by France during the unification process possibly as a means of economical containment. The containment part clearly has backfired, as it gives an advantage to the German industry due to its higher productivity.
Being a socialist country at heart with already high taxation and huge re-distribution of wealth, every government, if it wants to be re-elected, will try to keep "benefaction" internal. Beneficiaries being the voters. And these people have a lot to loose when large scale transfers flow from relative prosperous northern countries to less well off regions of the EU. Comparisons to WWI and WWII are intellectually lazy and unnecessary.
These contracts are ignored a lot recently by the ECB and the EU. It is these contracts, or at least the spirit of them, the Germans are trying to stick to.
The Euro was forced on Germany by France during the unification process possibly as a means of economical containment. The containment part clearly has backfired, as it gives an advantage to the German industry due to its higher productivity.
Being a socialist country at heart with already high taxation and huge re-distribution of wealth, every government, if it wants to be re-elected, will try to keep "benefaction" internal. Beneficiaries being the voters. And these people have a lot to loose when large scale transfers flow from relative prosperous northern countries to less well off regions of the EU. Comparisons to WWI and WWII are intellectually lazy and unnecessary.
13
I find most surprising the apparent majority view that a "generous" Germany is in hock for 56 billion euros ... it is conveniently forgotten that private bank loans were converted by Germany (with the help of its satellite countries) into sovereign debt so as to avoid a public bailout of its own banks --and the same goes for France. 69.3% of the two previous bailouts went to debt and interest payments and less than 12% to the Greek government. The rules imposed upon Greece have led it into a deep depression with 23% unemployement. Moreover, it is conveniently omitted that Germany has been the greatest beneficiary of the Euro, which has allowed it to develop its economy with a cheap labor pool (from East Germany, after a reunification paid for with cheap European loans; the Euro, weaker than the former mark has immensely helped Germany's enormous export sector. Germany has flaunted the EU rules on deficits at least six times, as has France, but is quick to talk about Southern Europe's "irresponsibility." It is the absolute dominant power in Europe, and seems oblivious to the fact that the memory of the past has not vanished. Germany has done more to damage the European project in these past weeks than can be imagined. Unfortunately, the anti-European populist parties will easily reap the benefit. Schauble and Merkel are too concerned with their internal polls to care.
2
For someone who speaks so assuredly, you are amazingly uninformed. Germans saw their funds on hand halved when the Euro came into effect. This was the devaluation resulting from the union with countries like France, Italy and Spain. No one really complained. They just kept working to make the best of it. Your statement about cheap labor from the former east German states is also preposterously wrong -- just the opposite is true.
The photograph is of demonstrators in Berlin *against* Merkel, sympathetic to the Greeks who voted OXI in the referendum. The current caption is misleading.
13
Immanuel Kant, the German philosopher widely viewed as a central figure of modern philosophy, contended that using reason without applying it to experience only leads to theoretical illusions. Lamentably, Greece's principal euro-zone creditors in Germany have not been listening to Kant. Since 2010, they have been orchestrating a program of austerity driven by absurd reasoning. The resulting experience in Greece has been a worsening depression. Yet Greece’s lenders have been steadfastly refusing to abandon their flawed program and start negotiating, instead, for financial assistance tied to the growth of Greece’s economy and export potential. Matters have become progressively worse since January. In the last round of “negotiations”, Wolfgang Schäuble would either destroy Greece’s economy in order to save it or show Greeks the door. It is inconceivable that Angela Merkel will not ultimately stop listening to her finance minister so possessed by binary thinking. Adopting either of these two extreme choices will not only fail to save Greece from economic collapse but in addition seriously undermine the viability of the euro-zone and the European Union.
2
This is about German banker power. The press talks about Greek borrowing too much but that means the bankers lent too much. The power and responsibility for ensuring those loans were prudent ultimately was with the bankers and they need to be held responsible for their reckless loan profit seeking at exorbitant risk. At its most basic this is like having innocent middle class people pay dearly for the incompetence of ultra-rich bankers. Bailing out the big Wall Street banks while letting millions of innocent homeowners go under with no help is similar. Ultimately not really about rules, except the corrupt rule the rich will always take from the people is the heart of the matter. The rich are the real leech like takers . Noble prize winner Joseph Stieglitz sees this as just one of many ways the rich suck money out of the people’s pockets, increasing income inequality. When seen clearly this is corruption and privilege at the highest political levels, the Merkel level. She needs to educate the German people on the failures of austerity or she needs to go. The fundamental lie that austerity policies work serves not rules but this corrupt transfer of wealth to incompetent bankers with empty $400 suits.
3
If it's so wrong to lend Greece money, let's cut them off right now.
Who is running the IMF asylum? Lagarde, head of the IMF, condemns Greece for avoiding taxation claiming Greece can help itself ‘by paying ALL their tax”. But she pays no taxes on her annual salary of $466,142.07. But that is not enough for this greedy hypocrite. Lagarde is given a tax-free allowance package of $81,179.80. Does she know what the average pensioner receives? $723.51 if they can get it from a bank. How many pensioners would her allowance alone support? To avoid increased anger, I didn’t do the division.
The IMF blood letting of Greece hurt working families. Since beginning of the austerity, direct taxes increased by nearly 53%, while indirect taxes increased by 22%. Between 2008-2012 these taxes reduced the average annual income of Greek working families by nearly 23%. Income losses were significantly different for each income class, the poorest household had the biggest losses. If you question her economic ability, see Lagardes' YouTube video on numerology.
More than anyone,.Wolfgang Schäuble has shaped European economic policy: saying to stabilize financially troubled countries they must slash spending, and raise taxes. BUT Schäuble is a crook once ousted for corruption due to involvement in a network of secret slush funds fed by millions of Deutsche marks in undeclared illegal campaign contributions. He lied to prosecutors claiming they had only served as intermediaries in the money transfer, which indeed had been intended as a hidden party financing.
The IMF blood letting of Greece hurt working families. Since beginning of the austerity, direct taxes increased by nearly 53%, while indirect taxes increased by 22%. Between 2008-2012 these taxes reduced the average annual income of Greek working families by nearly 23%. Income losses were significantly different for each income class, the poorest household had the biggest losses. If you question her economic ability, see Lagardes' YouTube video on numerology.
More than anyone,.Wolfgang Schäuble has shaped European economic policy: saying to stabilize financially troubled countries they must slash spending, and raise taxes. BUT Schäuble is a crook once ousted for corruption due to involvement in a network of secret slush funds fed by millions of Deutsche marks in undeclared illegal campaign contributions. He lied to prosecutors claiming they had only served as intermediaries in the money transfer, which indeed had been intended as a hidden party financing.
2
The caption under the photo heading this article - "Germans held a protest against a third Greek bailout" - is misleading. The photo is of ordinary Germans expressing their support for Greece: the demonstrators opposed not the bailout but their own government's "aggressive, punishing, contemptuous" - to quote the excellent article itself - behaviour. "OXI", "NO" in Greek, was displayed on hundreds of placards as a demonstration of solidarity. Many Germans are horrified by their government's behaviour and we must not fall into the trap of labelling a whole people.
10
Unfortunately i need to disagree a bit.
Most of the germans support the government's behaviour.
But of course there are as well those germans, who do not like this behaviour.
Looks like a normal behaviour of a normal people.
My proof for this: In the polls the sympathy level of Merkel and Schäuble are increasing in Germany.
Most of the germans support the government's behaviour.
But of course there are as well those germans, who do not like this behaviour.
Looks like a normal behaviour of a normal people.
My proof for this: In the polls the sympathy level of Merkel and Schäuble are increasing in Germany.
what reputation is that?
2
What's overlooked here is that this is the way the Germans treat themselves and their own citizens.
The German Finanzamt (tax department) is an institution happy to serve up a dollop of morality with its tax bills. One ex-pat friend was harangued publicly by an official for using the wrong Excel spreadsheet formulas to do his freelance tax returns. Another had his request for a payment plan denied. The accompanying letter set out how irresponsible he had been - it was like getting a fire and brimstone letter from the Church.
For a German, paying debt and taxes, and sticking to the rules, is an essential part of what it means to be a moral person.
The German Finanzamt (tax department) is an institution happy to serve up a dollop of morality with its tax bills. One ex-pat friend was harangued publicly by an official for using the wrong Excel spreadsheet formulas to do his freelance tax returns. Another had his request for a payment plan denied. The accompanying letter set out how irresponsible he had been - it was like getting a fire and brimstone letter from the Church.
For a German, paying debt and taxes, and sticking to the rules, is an essential part of what it means to be a moral person.
3
When East and West Germany reunited there was a huge capital flow from West to East, but I don't remember anyone talking about West Germany imposing austerity on the East Germans.
8
It is not New York Times fault, it is not Guardian's fault, it is not Germany's fault, it is not Greece's fault. We are tragically generalizing. But let me use the Greek goddess Eris to explain to you what is happening here.
The reason? Probably greed. Have you noticed people becoming more greedy lately about money? Like it is all that matters, and so fixated. Like Germany wouldn't be just fine witg the splendor it accumulated. And Greece wouldn't be just fine with it's natural beauty and charm.
We have to make things so complicated and talk about billions of Euros. And somewhere in a village in Greece an old woman who has worked all her life sees her pension cut in half and tax rises 10%. Who is going to listen to her? Who is going to listen to her? Merkel or Tsipras?
That's why she doesn't care and goes for a walk by the sea :-)
The reason? Probably greed. Have you noticed people becoming more greedy lately about money? Like it is all that matters, and so fixated. Like Germany wouldn't be just fine witg the splendor it accumulated. And Greece wouldn't be just fine with it's natural beauty and charm.
We have to make things so complicated and talk about billions of Euros. And somewhere in a village in Greece an old woman who has worked all her life sees her pension cut in half and tax rises 10%. Who is going to listen to her? Who is going to listen to her? Merkel or Tsipras?
That's why she doesn't care and goes for a walk by the sea :-)
1
It is difficult to avoid the impression that the world still sees Germany as Nazis who should continue to give and do whatever is demanded of them because, you know, the war. And for a long time, Germany went along with it. Guess what? Penalty time is over.
10
After WWII the victorious allies rebuilt Germany. They could have taken the moralistic approach to Germany and made them pay reparations for all time as a microscopic contribution to the millions and millions they slaughtered in the most cruel ways imaginable. As such, you'd think they could be less judgmental about helping an entire Greek people rebuild their economy. After all Germany and Brussels did know the true Greek situation and therefore as creditors SHARE the losses on these investments. Or I guess we can support the German position to continue to punish the Greek people (let us know when it's enough since IMF and rest agree that the present debt is NOT repayable).
1
Bashing Germany: shoot the messenger for bringing bad news.
1) Germany was lending a lot of money to Greece over the past years - a lot more than anyone else - well knowing that odds are not to get the money back. Without this, Greece would already be bancrupt.
2) Greece fooled Germany (and the rest of the EU) repeatedly. They did not modernize their country (administration, corruption etc.) during the past years although they promised in exchange for financial support. This way, they did not prepare the ground for investments from outside. (it is not only about austerity as some anglosaxon and southern european countries want the rest of the world to believe)
3) Now, Germany conveyed the message to Greece: stop fooling us. Some people believe this is too harsh - why? One could also argue the message should have been conveyed at a much earlier time.
4) Solution: The New York Times and the British Guardian should convince the anglosaxons all over the world to cover the depths of Greece (or at least 100% haircut from the International Monetary Fund) - of course for humanitary reasons. Wouldn´t that be nice? This is of course unlikely to happen - see recent reaction of David Cameron when asked for some (minor) financial support for Greece. So, it is quite unlikely that anglosaxons will safe the world or at least Greece.
Ergo: keep your mouth shut unless you contribute to the solution!
1) Germany was lending a lot of money to Greece over the past years - a lot more than anyone else - well knowing that odds are not to get the money back. Without this, Greece would already be bancrupt.
2) Greece fooled Germany (and the rest of the EU) repeatedly. They did not modernize their country (administration, corruption etc.) during the past years although they promised in exchange for financial support. This way, they did not prepare the ground for investments from outside. (it is not only about austerity as some anglosaxon and southern european countries want the rest of the world to believe)
3) Now, Germany conveyed the message to Greece: stop fooling us. Some people believe this is too harsh - why? One could also argue the message should have been conveyed at a much earlier time.
4) Solution: The New York Times and the British Guardian should convince the anglosaxons all over the world to cover the depths of Greece (or at least 100% haircut from the International Monetary Fund) - of course for humanitary reasons. Wouldn´t that be nice? This is of course unlikely to happen - see recent reaction of David Cameron when asked for some (minor) financial support for Greece. So, it is quite unlikely that anglosaxons will safe the world or at least Greece.
Ergo: keep your mouth shut unless you contribute to the solution!
14
Germany and Greece are not blameless. But why are we not outraged at the immorality of banks lending money that cannot be repaid? Whether Greece today, or US mortgage holders yesterday, or who knows what tomorrow, why do we as a society allow banks to choke our throats? Why are we so afraid that we refuse to make the banks behave? Why? That we allow banks unfettered freedom is deeply disappointing and disgusting.
3
If these evil bankers hadn't lent Greece the money they were demanding to borrow the left would have assailed the evil greedy cheapskate banks. The banks will be pilloried no matter what they do
This article would be far more informative if instead of simply collecting an random sample of opinions the author had given readers a feeling for the amount of financial generosity Germany would have to show towards Greece if the latter defaulted on what it owes Germany. A leading non-partisan economic research institute in Mannheim, Germany has calculated that taxpayers in Germany would have to pay a surcharge of 3% on their income tax for 3 years to make up for the loss of a Greek default. What electorate would be willing to give a gift that large to another sovereign country, especially given the fact that every eurozone member country agreed in the beginning that there would be no fiscal transfers to make up for the fiscal excesses of another? Would Americans do that for Puerto Rico, whose outstanding debt is only a fifth as large as Greece's? I don't think so. It is simply stupid and naive to expect the impossible. It's time Greece and all the salon do-gooders understand that.
11
If anyone stands to lose their reputation, it is Greece, and its Prime Minister Tsipras -- Because anybody who has half a handle on what is actually going on here, knows that Germany (and Europe) has been more than generous in its handouts, and willingness to extend the deadlines on its loans.
But as with all good things, there comes a time, when the Sovereignty of a Nation must be based less upon a symbolic Referendum, than on its ability to stand and take responsibility for the fiscal mismanagement of its past.
Until now, Greece has been either unable or unwilling to do this.
A debt of this magnitude does not come into existence overnight.
For decades Greece has overlooked, and overspent, evidently secure in the assurance that this would go forward 'ad infinitum'.
Unfortunately for Greece, now the time has come for it to face the facts that over-spending, repeated borrowing , early-retirement, lost pension payments, and state-sanctioned cronyism in Government jobs doesn't work in the long run --- And they have had a long run.
Now is the time to be realistic. Time to go after the Greek Multi-Billionaires, and Shipping Magnates, and other private Interest groups -- and have them pitch in.
If not to save their country, then to save their honor as Greek citizens.
But as with all good things, there comes a time, when the Sovereignty of a Nation must be based less upon a symbolic Referendum, than on its ability to stand and take responsibility for the fiscal mismanagement of its past.
Until now, Greece has been either unable or unwilling to do this.
A debt of this magnitude does not come into existence overnight.
For decades Greece has overlooked, and overspent, evidently secure in the assurance that this would go forward 'ad infinitum'.
Unfortunately for Greece, now the time has come for it to face the facts that over-spending, repeated borrowing , early-retirement, lost pension payments, and state-sanctioned cronyism in Government jobs doesn't work in the long run --- And they have had a long run.
Now is the time to be realistic. Time to go after the Greek Multi-Billionaires, and Shipping Magnates, and other private Interest groups -- and have them pitch in.
If not to save their country, then to save their honor as Greek citizens.
9
But Greek Privledge mandates their entitlement to retire at 50 and give the bill to somebody else
Much of the German reticence during the first 50 years of post-war history derives from shame. With each passing year, it is harder and harder to maintain that, because fewer people have any recollection of 1945. But truth be told, no one really thought this would become a permanent part of German culture. What most hoped for was a permanent national commitment to play well with others.
What we have seen over the past 5 years is a morality play, when in fact we needed a multilateral commitment to solve problems, not by imposition or moral sermonizing. Clearly, Greeks need to collect taxes and Germans pay their taxes religiously. It might have been more effective if Germans provided technical assistance in helping Greek tax agencies searching for tax cheats. After all, where is all that money that hasn't been taxed? Not in shaky Greek banks. More likely Swiss or German or Dutch banks.
What we have seen over the past 5 years is a morality play, when in fact we needed a multilateral commitment to solve problems, not by imposition or moral sermonizing. Clearly, Greeks need to collect taxes and Germans pay their taxes religiously. It might have been more effective if Germans provided technical assistance in helping Greek tax agencies searching for tax cheats. After all, where is all that money that hasn't been taxed? Not in shaky Greek banks. More likely Swiss or German or Dutch banks.
2
I would have expected a more balanced article from Mr. Erlanger (former Berlin-based NYT correspondent). But this just follows a NYT pattern. First, articles are published about how Germany must assume a more dominant leadership role in both Europe & the world. And then in the next breath, articles about how Germany is doing it wrong. Why aren't there more articles about how the USA risked its reputation by not enacting the Kyoto protocols or started a false-flag war that cost billions of dollars, thousands of lives, destabilized an entire region & made torture a key component?
10
Yes, we need more articles about the false intelligence Bush inherited from Clinton and about the lies Bush was told by the democrat CIA Director he inherited from Clinton
Germany does not want a united Europe based on the US model, the USA has more than demonstrated that such a model does not work. The US today is a social wasteland, with the "heartland" red states being completely dysfunctional in terms of social health and political accountability.
Blue States have for decades poured billions and billions of dollars into Red States, without the Red States needing to take responsibility for the well being of their own people. Red State citizens can vote in bizarre politicians without feeling the consequences (at least not directly).
Germany does not want to recreate a "Blue State-Red State" disaster with Greece, instead it wants to use this crisis to compel Greece to become a functional country. If Greece's people want to vote radical Communists and Fascists into office with large majorities (like Syriza), then go right ahead, but unlike the American Way of dysfunctional politics, the Greek people will feel the consequences for their decisions.
Blue States have for decades poured billions and billions of dollars into Red States, without the Red States needing to take responsibility for the well being of their own people. Red State citizens can vote in bizarre politicians without feeling the consequences (at least not directly).
Germany does not want to recreate a "Blue State-Red State" disaster with Greece, instead it wants to use this crisis to compel Greece to become a functional country. If Greece's people want to vote radical Communists and Fascists into office with large majorities (like Syriza), then go right ahead, but unlike the American Way of dysfunctional politics, the Greek people will feel the consequences for their decisions.
2
If you bite the hand that feeds you, what do you get?
Right, no lunch.
It is so absurd to try and punish Germans for two things:
Not wanting to throw good money after bad into the bottomless pit called Greece.
Not wanting to break the rules of the EU and the Euro Zone for a criminal organization called Greece.
Time to get real and honour the rules for the Euro Zone that very clearly state a No Bailout Clause and let Greece do what it has done over and over again for centuries, go bankrupt.
Right, no lunch.
It is so absurd to try and punish Germans for two things:
Not wanting to throw good money after bad into the bottomless pit called Greece.
Not wanting to break the rules of the EU and the Euro Zone for a criminal organization called Greece.
Time to get real and honour the rules for the Euro Zone that very clearly state a No Bailout Clause and let Greece do what it has done over and over again for centuries, go bankrupt.
6
In the 1930s40s it was German military imperialism Now Germany appears to have lost the moral high ground acting as a lecturing school marm.
An alternate viewpoint is one of viewing Germany's financial imperialism.
When the Germans needed a helping hand their former enemies , the Allues, gave them a financial life line. To the very same country who was a sworn enemy just a few years prior.
My, how times change and arrogance takes hold.
A United Europe will take a whole lot more effort than this 3rd rate tragi-comedy takes. And the unsmiling Germans may very well not be directing at that point in time.
An alternate viewpoint is one of viewing Germany's financial imperialism.
When the Germans needed a helping hand their former enemies , the Allues, gave them a financial life line. To the very same country who was a sworn enemy just a few years prior.
My, how times change and arrogance takes hold.
A United Europe will take a whole lot more effort than this 3rd rate tragi-comedy takes. And the unsmiling Germans may very well not be directing at that point in time.
3
People that linger on the history after WW2 are far of base . This a different era and very different conditions and circumstances. Blaming Germany for the woes in Greece are just illusions. Despite the fundamentally flawed economic system that does not work and is definitely rigged in favor of the rich as apposed to the masses. Nevertheless it is the rich, including bankers , economists and the hierarchy of the governments etc who dictate the perpetuation of the fundamentally flawed economic system with impunity. Most Americans with their petty jealousies have no love of the Euro, that has helped the Continental Europeans in their combined effort to fight and get out from underneath the fiscal disaster Clinton created by repealing the Glass-Steagall Act. Then followed by Bush propaganda of terror hype, fomentation of hate, fear republican patriotic feeding frenzy to control the hearts and minds of a misled and gullible nation, the Bush / Cheney untenable war on terror at home, Afghanistan / Pakistan , plus the fraud war on Iraq. Followed by Islam bashing and Judaeo-Christian psychopathy. 9/11 would have never happened had it not been for Reagan, his conservative revolution & baiting his favorite freedom fighter bin Laden the Saudi Prince. Who was double crossed by Reagan and his cohorts as it has always been the conservative republican modus operandi. Germany and rest of N. Europe has no choice other taking a tough fiscal stand.
7
It's so much easier for the left to blame Germany than admit the proven fact that socialism doesn't work
If Greece leaves the EU it will shake the authority of Germany, if Greece will remain in the European Union it will lead to the fact that Germany will lose a lot of money, a desperate situation for Germany. However, Germany has created it by its own, when it set the absolutely inadequate economic standard for Europe, beneficial to Germany's economy, but that is unsupportable for many other countries.
2
The righteousness of Germany resembles a disgruntled child packing up his marbles and running home.
When one takes into account Germany's suffering under the Treaty Versailles and the terrible crimes committed against the Greek people during the occupation, it is really ugly.
It's about time that they start taking Weber's Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism with a grain of salt...
excerpt from a 2012 Guardian piece:
"Just under 15% of Germany's total arms exports are made to Greece, its biggest market in Europe,"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-de...
When one takes into account Germany's suffering under the Treaty Versailles and the terrible crimes committed against the Greek people during the occupation, it is really ugly.
It's about time that they start taking Weber's Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism with a grain of salt...
excerpt from a 2012 Guardian piece:
"Just under 15% of Germany's total arms exports are made to Greece, its biggest market in Europe,"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-de...
"For Jürgen Habermas, a pro-European German intellectual, said that Ms. Merkel and her coalition government, including the center-left Social Democratic Party, “have gambled away in one night all the political capital that a better Germany had accumulated in half a century.”
This is a typical reaction of a German Good Guy, who cannot face the truth. In Europe most of the people have still anti-german feelings. You cannot gamble away the political capital of half a century in one night. Then this politcal capital simply wasn't existing.
Germany has no friends. Just partners. And we should not ask for more and just accept this.
This is a typical reaction of a German Good Guy, who cannot face the truth. In Europe most of the people have still anti-german feelings. You cannot gamble away the political capital of half a century in one night. Then this politcal capital simply wasn't existing.
Germany has no friends. Just partners. And we should not ask for more and just accept this.
3
The comment by a German worker complaining about Greeks retiring at ages 50-55 while Germans have to wait until 65 says it all. The German people themselves are tired of seeing their taxes support a nation of profligates as Greece is.
3
Greece in Eurozone with out a debt reduction cannot survive out of the 'debtors prison' with Euro as its only currency. Greece is more or less is a cash economy and that the industry and business are starving for funds. The money is flowing out rather coming in. Bailouts to return the loans are not helping in any way the growth of the Greek economy.
1
Though some consider Varoufakis discredited, and his style abrasive, the substance of his positions are (more than) interesting. Perhaps there's some explanation in this article? And reason to fear.
http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/17/dr-schaubles-plan-for-europe-do-eur...
http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/17/dr-schaubles-plan-for-europe-do-eur...
2
I am afraid that Germany is feeling a post world war two empowerment that is now making it flex its political and economic muscles. Where it will lead it no one knows. But the Germans historically have had a hard time not believing they are the masters of Europe.
3
Germany losing trust? And they say WE don't remember history?
Hiding behind their puppets political manoeuvres, the creditors lent money to Greece knowing pretty well that the country wouldn't be able to pay it back. That's the real scandal, yet no justice court will penalize people who uses politicians to exercise power on people to satisfy their greed.
Nations - different modalities of human experiencing-so why should they
unite? They express different approaches to life-of course Greece and
Italy 'fail' -they're utterly impractical people with something else to
offer-Germans should and must use their money to support others -what?
You want them to use it for their own ideas and purposes? look what
happened the last time.
The German nature is simply an expression of one of the many fixed
traits of human nature - for practical purposes human nature as defined
by several thousand historical human years - man changes not over
thousands but perhaps hundreds of thousands if not millions of years, so
a German will still be a German until at least the year 200500
unite? They express different approaches to life-of course Greece and
Italy 'fail' -they're utterly impractical people with something else to
offer-Germans should and must use their money to support others -what?
You want them to use it for their own ideas and purposes? look what
happened the last time.
The German nature is simply an expression of one of the many fixed
traits of human nature - for practical purposes human nature as defined
by several thousand historical human years - man changes not over
thousands but perhaps hundreds of thousands if not millions of years, so
a German will still be a German until at least the year 200500
2
This is just nothing but NYT polemics of the lowest kind, biased by its leftist stance. It fails to admit that there are hugh differences within the Euro zone in terms of business and work culture that run neatly and horizontally across the southern part of the Euro zone. Ask someone from Southern Spain and they still think they should not be asked to work because it is so hot. Never mind that they all got air conditioning now. No wonder Catalunya wants to quit. Catalunya is tired of financing southern Spain, too. There is a substantial cultural rift between Northern and Southern Italy. So the NYT headline and article here are just evidence of just how little the NYT researches and how completely biased they are.
3
Greece wanted to change the union to fit to their own situation.
Syriza have not shown much eagerness in modernizing their own country, their main only zeal had been to find permanent creditor and a narrative to make these creditors to write off their loans.
Germans still consider themself as one of the two founding nations, we have given this union a constitution, which was the only reason, we were willing to make any contribution. We build this union to make sure, that everyone who wanted to join could rely on this constitution.
And now greece tries to make a coup a change all this with some macro-economic outcry. If greece would have suceeded, this wouldn't hardly have been the union, we have founded, and we would have a reason to quit.
We german sincerely believe, that greece wanted to unbalance this union, this clockwork that worked for the interests of many nation, to gain a personal advantage. Yes, for us this is a coup.
You may change this union by negotiations, you may change the rules, if all the nations can live up to the change. But you can't think just because you got a mandate from a domestic election, that you can fiddle the system.
And honestly, if this goes own, i would vote for germany to leave. We were pressed to create this union by the french, this was the prize for their approval for the German reunification. But this is not our union anymore, we should be permitted to leave.
Syriza have not shown much eagerness in modernizing their own country, their main only zeal had been to find permanent creditor and a narrative to make these creditors to write off their loans.
Germans still consider themself as one of the two founding nations, we have given this union a constitution, which was the only reason, we were willing to make any contribution. We build this union to make sure, that everyone who wanted to join could rely on this constitution.
And now greece tries to make a coup a change all this with some macro-economic outcry. If greece would have suceeded, this wouldn't hardly have been the union, we have founded, and we would have a reason to quit.
We german sincerely believe, that greece wanted to unbalance this union, this clockwork that worked for the interests of many nation, to gain a personal advantage. Yes, for us this is a coup.
You may change this union by negotiations, you may change the rules, if all the nations can live up to the change. But you can't think just because you got a mandate from a domestic election, that you can fiddle the system.
And honestly, if this goes own, i would vote for germany to leave. We were pressed to create this union by the french, this was the prize for their approval for the German reunification. But this is not our union anymore, we should be permitted to leave.
6
Some would say the Germans and other Europeans have shown remarkable forbearance over the years since Greek accession to the EU. The Greeks have been dishonest, irresponsible, pushy, and heedless of nothing but their own interests from the start. Call the Germans cruel and aggressive, but sooner or later, anyone who sees his money wasted on people who won't make good faith efforts to help themselves begins to get angry. I think Herr Schauble is right: a temporary Grexit, followed by some serious Greek rethinking of how they do things, followed by an application for readmission, would be best for all concerned.
8
Hello from Germany. This article is pure propaganda and an anti-Germany campaign.
Germany along with several Eastern European countries had the courage to raise the issue that Greece was irresponsible.
The conditions for each bailout included reforms, privatization, and very reasonable terms for paying back the loans.
Greece leaving the Euro Currency is the best thing that could happen.
If its good enough for Great Britain, its good enough for Greece.
Germany along with several Eastern European countries had the courage to raise the issue that Greece was irresponsible.
The conditions for each bailout included reforms, privatization, and very reasonable terms for paying back the loans.
Greece leaving the Euro Currency is the best thing that could happen.
If its good enough for Great Britain, its good enough for Greece.
10
European policies have just about destroyed the Greek economy. This is not setting a good example that the proponents of Europe need to give it more political appeal. Germany needs to push for further integration to avoid other crises to happen. But the political message to achieve that end is dead. Will Europe survive?
It's not just the Germans who are complaining about Greece, other countries that followed the rules and are recovering, perhaps more slowly than they would like, are also angry. Closing Greek banks and failing to negotiate and then calling a referendum, was a stupid move on Mr. Tsiparis' part. Again everybody's back was against a wall. An orderly exit from the Euro, with the option to join the common currency later, would be a much saner policy. Greece lied to get into the EU. A devalued drachma would hurt at first, but lower prices would encourage tourism and investment and make Greeces exports more competitive. I have travelled in Greece and paying for substandard service in Euro's and then paying a 23% VAT, doesn't make sense to most tourists or travelers. Greece has much to offer, but so many other options exist. Every time we go through this charade the markets shudder. It's like the Republicans shutting down the government here, it costs money and makes things worse. It does not make a point and it does not make sense.
7
i acknowledge that past Greek governments ( and the current one) have not acted responsibly, but as an outside observer I can find sympathy for the people of Greece who have had to pay their dues and deal with capital controls. I do not, however, have any sympathy for Germany. Germany was always the most powerful, productive country in western europe once it was successfully re-unified. The deutche mark was always way more expensive than the franc, escudo, peseta, lira and drachma. Germany has greatly benefited from the eurozone currency union because its currency is now cheaper and it can export, export, export to its poorer eurozone neighbors without having a stronger currency. So I might have expected less selfishness from them, or at least expected wolfgang to keep his mouth shut after making a diplomatic agreement with Greece ( where admittedly neither side was happy- thats called a compromise) instead of continuing on this rampage about a grexit or a temporary exit. I know Germany has been more fiscally resonsible, but geez, if we had a currency union with mexico, argentina, brazil and central america we might look pretty responsible and we would sell a lot more stuff.
2
Maybe that analizys doesn't really meet reality. Greek got about €200 billions of subsidies until 2008 by the European Community...25% share of Germany and remains the largest receiver of money transfer by far. Starting 2008 Greek cumulated about €320 billions of debth....€90 billions backed by German tax payers...and this money is lost for sure.
German interst is simply to prevent the state of Grece to become a bottomless pit. That requires deep changes and restructuring of national infrastructure including social, financial and economic administration. While the Greek leading class is not really willing to do so because of their benefits external pressure is urgently needed.
Schaeuble performs a really hard job and he does it excellent.
German interst is simply to prevent the state of Grece to become a bottomless pit. That requires deep changes and restructuring of national infrastructure including social, financial and economic administration. While the Greek leading class is not really willing to do so because of their benefits external pressure is urgently needed.
Schaeuble performs a really hard job and he does it excellent.
4
Germany isn't a loan shark threatening Greece it will break its knees if it doesn't pay up. It is more like Uncle Frank who is tired of lending Johnny money when he refuses to change his ways. It seems that people are unfairly treating Germany as the villain when Greece is taking a hard line and
7
This article is merely pointing out that Germany's PR took a big hit during these last negotiations. It's not saying that Germany is wrong, just that even if their position is perfectly defensible, the way they communicated their views made them look like bullies. And unfortunately, that's an image one would think the Germans would try to avoid at all costs, for obvious reasons. There's plenty of blame to go around on both sides here, but a country using its superior power to put another country down and bend it to its will is just not an attractive sight.
3
Bravo Erlanger. While European criticism of Germany is known abroad, the topic is not covered in the US. US sympathies always lie with the creditor, and Tsipras's mildly Left government (for it is only that) reinforces the bias. Yet it is questionable Germany had been motivated by "penance," and rather had pushed its its industrial-financial supremacy within Europe for decades. (One wonders at this stage) whether reunification was a good idea.)
Schauble is the true voice of German arrogance, his rule-based society for him all well and good provided Germany defines AND enforces the rules. Unity is a convenience, the better for Germany to tighten its hold on the Continent. And still, the American public looks at Greece as a renegade or spoiled child. I agree with the sentiment that Nazi (Hitler saw to it that the trains ran on time) lurks just below the surface.
What is not mentioned is Russia. For the EU was, is, and will remain a cover for NATO, the political formation having a military foundation. Europe per se, following Germany's leadership, both extends America's global leadership and keeps alive the Cold War. Greece deserves respect for its ordeal, not calumny. Erlanger for the first time brings out that dimension.
Schauble is the true voice of German arrogance, his rule-based society for him all well and good provided Germany defines AND enforces the rules. Unity is a convenience, the better for Germany to tighten its hold on the Continent. And still, the American public looks at Greece as a renegade or spoiled child. I agree with the sentiment that Nazi (Hitler saw to it that the trains ran on time) lurks just below the surface.
What is not mentioned is Russia. For the EU was, is, and will remain a cover for NATO, the political formation having a military foundation. Europe per se, following Germany's leadership, both extends America's global leadership and keeps alive the Cold War. Greece deserves respect for its ordeal, not calumny. Erlanger for the first time brings out that dimension.
3
We're back to the famous "some" as a peg on which to hang a totally specious story. I'm afraid trawling the opinions of a bunch of left wing intellectuals and Euro-skeptics, and adding a Greek protest picture to spice it up, is hardly a picture of reality. Only a few months ago the NYT was bemoaning the fact that Germany wasn't taking a more forward role in the Ukrainian situation now they're claiming Germany is throwing it's weight around when in fact it was only one of many countries taking a similar position.
8
We are talking about an economy the size of Los Angeles County. Talk about the tail wagging the dog! European solidarity? Bail the Greeks out, reform, move on.
Austerity doesn't work and you can't get blood out of a turnip. Pity the poor Greek citizen, poor before all of this fiasco, and now living in the street. By all means, encourage intelligent reform in Greece, but lenders should realize that bad loans can go bad and look before they lend. Otherwise, it's just privatize profits and make losses public.
The article makes a point. Europe, with Germany as its leading country, is being short-sighted and misguided and economically wrong.
Austerity doesn't work and you can't get blood out of a turnip. Pity the poor Greek citizen, poor before all of this fiasco, and now living in the street. By all means, encourage intelligent reform in Greece, but lenders should realize that bad loans can go bad and look before they lend. Otherwise, it's just privatize profits and make losses public.
The article makes a point. Europe, with Germany as its leading country, is being short-sighted and misguided and economically wrong.
39
Second rate, intellectual German-bashing?
3
The entire saga reminds me of Jr. High kids involved in one of their petulant, myopic social dramas.
As an ex-pat living in Germany, I have to say that reading some of the stuff written about Germany is quite disturbing. Not because of Germany's role in all of this but because of the incredible amount of ignorance shown by Germany's critics. Some of the comments here also show a basic lack of history and a complete lack of insight into the German mind set. One thing I see thrown around here is that Germany should be understanding and grateful because of all of the help they received after the war. The Marshall Plan is thrown around a lot but there is one major flaw in that......Germany was not a whole country then and as a consequence did not see a cent of that money. Want to talk about austerity? How about living under the boot of the Soviets? Want to talk about the Greeks having to drop the euro and return to the drachma? The citizens of the DDR saw their East German Mark dissapear almost overnight when they adopted the Mark. Then not just a few years later, they saw another currency switch with the adoption of the euro.
Also a lot of criticism about the Germans sticking to the rules and being so rigid. There is a German word that somes this up...."Quatsch"....which translates to "nonsense". What is so wrong with discipline? If America was as fiscally conservative as Germany, then we would truly be exceptional.
Also a lot of criticism about the Germans sticking to the rules and being so rigid. There is a German word that somes this up...."Quatsch"....which translates to "nonsense". What is so wrong with discipline? If America was as fiscally conservative as Germany, then we would truly be exceptional.
14
and Germany was the only Marshall Plan recipient to make something of the funds it got - with lots of US strings - and was obligated to pay them back. Not France or England. How do you make a loan to someone who has no plan to enable it to pay it back? Even if you wipe out the old debts. Speaking of which - the London Accords freed Germany from the Versailles war debt imposed by the victors, not debts freely entered. Top economists at Versailles argued against the imposition.
Historically, of course, it was Germany that attacked Russia. So that disaster Germany certainly brought upon itself by allowing a crazy guy to be their dictator.....
Greece (and Europe) have been incredibly unlucky that Angela Merkel has been in charge of Germany during this whole financial crisis. Keynes taught us decades and decades ago that during a depression or serious economic downturn, the last thing you should do is implement austerity. For years now she has insisted on policies that prolong the crisis or make it worse.
2
Recently, on a weekend trip to Athens, we were stopped by Greek television interviewers while visiting the old town. We were asked to comment on the plan to have tourists spy on wealthy Greek tax evaders while on their holidays in Greece.
You can't make this stuff up.
Greece reminds me of an alcoholic in denial. Can we really blame Germany for not wanting to play the enabler?
You can't make this stuff up.
Greece reminds me of an alcoholic in denial. Can we really blame Germany for not wanting to play the enabler?
9
It's democracy when the Greeks say 'No', and it's dictatorship when the Germans say 'No'. That's interesting. It resembles very well what you learn early as a German: You can be the nicest person on planet, but if people cannot cope with your oppinion or ideas (and they often don't even try), they will always rope you into the past of your country. A past which you can actually take no responsibility for, because, as a matter of fact, you are just not responsible. Many Germans get the impression that, in an European context, you solely have to pay for what other's decide and otherwise shut up. And if Germans are still sceptical, just tell a lie.
Jean Claude Juncker 1999: "The occurrence that EU countries might have to transfer money to others is as likely as a hunger crisis in Bavaria."
Jean Claude Juncker 1999: "The occurrence that EU countries might have to transfer money to others is as likely as a hunger crisis in Bavaria."
9
On the one hand, Merkel and Schäuble and company have done a great job of holding Greece's feet to the fire. The discipline that will bring to Greece is the only hope the Greeks have for staying in the EU, over time.
Under the current scenario, debt relief in some form, must be forthcoming, too.
On the other hand, Schäuble is also willing to float the obvious: the Greeks should not be in the EU. It doesn't feel nice to say and the Greeks can't get there themselves because the one thing worse than living up to northern european standards is the chaos that will ensue if they leave.
If Greece can't see leaving, they need to use membership in the EU to drive the change they need. Membership in the EU requires a certain willingness to assume and fulfill transparent responsibility, something to which the Greeks can now only aspire.
Under the current scenario, debt relief in some form, must be forthcoming, too.
On the other hand, Schäuble is also willing to float the obvious: the Greeks should not be in the EU. It doesn't feel nice to say and the Greeks can't get there themselves because the one thing worse than living up to northern european standards is the chaos that will ensue if they leave.
If Greece can't see leaving, they need to use membership in the EU to drive the change they need. Membership in the EU requires a certain willingness to assume and fulfill transparent responsibility, something to which the Greeks can now only aspire.
7
Germany knows Greece is a dead beat . Good on them for saying it.
3
I wonder does the German government know that they don't have to credit all other European countries.
It seems that Bundeskanzlerin Merkel takes Greek debts for personal responsibility. That's false!
It seems that Bundeskanzlerin Merkel takes Greek debts for personal responsibility. That's false!
Germany and Greece are poles apart on so many measures that I'm not surprised by this discord. The truth is that Greece probably would be better off leaving the euro. It would have been best however if the other Eurozone countries had come to a consensus on this and presented it as a unified front. With Germany playing the heavy it brings back too many memories for other European countries of their domination by Germany in the past and the terrible results of that.
I would surmise that modern-day Germany is perhaps not feeling as much of a need to take a back seat to anyone anymore. Most of their population was born after WW II and possibly feels that they no longer need to carry the stain and shame of what their ancestors did. Germany being Germany, it tends towards efficiency, financial prudence and above all law and order, and quite likely is having a hard time with free-wheeling Greece. Maybe some work on consensus building for the EuroZone partners would be useful in avoiding the appearance of domination by Germany in future dealings.
I would surmise that modern-day Germany is perhaps not feeling as much of a need to take a back seat to anyone anymore. Most of their population was born after WW II and possibly feels that they no longer need to carry the stain and shame of what their ancestors did. Germany being Germany, it tends towards efficiency, financial prudence and above all law and order, and quite likely is having a hard time with free-wheeling Greece. Maybe some work on consensus building for the EuroZone partners would be useful in avoiding the appearance of domination by Germany in future dealings.
3
As a German I can't believe reading all those negative comments about Germany. Most Germans feel deeply with the Greek crisis and we DO want to help! German taxpayers pay the most (!) part in Europe and at one point there have to be some rules spending again and again Billions Euros taxpayers money to a government who is not able to tax rich people at all, has no working tax office, Greeks can retire at age 55, in Germany not before age 67, greek retirement money is higher (!) than in Germany, Greek gov called the Institutions "Terrorists", Greek gov did not implement any reforms that helps economy recoving...how come a Greek gov is not able even to tax it wealthy people?
It's not fair comparing Germany after WW II to the hard economic crisis in Greek when in Germany almost any city was completely bombed out! No standing house, no food, no shelter! Of course it was our own (!) fault having elected a dictator 77 years ago BUT wake up we have 2015 today!!! Germany is VERY thankful about the American Marshallplan 1/2 debt reduction in 1953 and in 2010 Germany has paid off his immense World War debt back. I personally feel very sorry for the Greek population and as most Germans I want them to get back to a healthy state. I as a German taxpayer I do not want to give away again billions of Euros to a country refusing implementing any changes such as reforms like taxing the rich people...
It's not fair comparing Germany after WW II to the hard economic crisis in Greek when in Germany almost any city was completely bombed out! No standing house, no food, no shelter! Of course it was our own (!) fault having elected a dictator 77 years ago BUT wake up we have 2015 today!!! Germany is VERY thankful about the American Marshallplan 1/2 debt reduction in 1953 and in 2010 Germany has paid off his immense World War debt back. I personally feel very sorry for the Greek population and as most Germans I want them to get back to a healthy state. I as a German taxpayer I do not want to give away again billions of Euros to a country refusing implementing any changes such as reforms like taxing the rich people...
12
@ Nirtak , Germany
Unfortunately, most Americans are extremely uninformed about this matter and only have a knee-jerk reaction against Germany, which they see as intolerant, merciless, and wanting to 'dominate' poor little Greece -- and the rest of Europe, for that matter. And if you asked any one of these people to give you an approximate sum of how many Euros Germany has already invested into keeping Greece afloat, you would be astonished not only at the answer, but at the fact that many don't even know that there is a difference between the "EU" and the "Eurozone".
Unfortunately, most Americans are extremely uninformed about this matter and only have a knee-jerk reaction against Germany, which they see as intolerant, merciless, and wanting to 'dominate' poor little Greece -- and the rest of Europe, for that matter. And if you asked any one of these people to give you an approximate sum of how many Euros Germany has already invested into keeping Greece afloat, you would be astonished not only at the answer, but at the fact that many don't even know that there is a difference between the "EU" and the "Eurozone".
Why would any lender in this context not make it difficult to borrow yet more tax payer money, likely to never be repaid, from citizens who actually pay taxes ? Given the open contempt even racism on display, not to mention sheer incompetence of the Greek government, why would intelligent people look forward to the prospect of burning their own money ? And in terms of rehabilitating a society has any country travelled a greater distance than Germany ? Surely the Greeks can appreciate their own behavior needs amended as it must now know the future flow of free money will not be infinite. The EU and EZ, however conceptually or operationally flawed, still must prefer members take some personal responsibility for their own households.
4
This article is unfair towards Germany. The European project does not include a provision for what is currently going on in Greece. It is assumed that individual countries should be able to deal with their own debt issues. The Greek government is is too irresponsible for words. Its pension is higher than those of other European countries who contribute to the loan package. How is that even fair ?
.
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5
To get an idea of how badly the popular view of Germany has been harmed by this crisis, look at the readers' comments below and in the last few editions of The New York Times. Probably about half of the comments are extremely critical of Germany. A month ago, there would have been only a tiny number of such negative comments.
1
If you look closer at many of the readers' comments here, you will find a pathological hatred of Germany that has nothing to do with the Greek crisis.
I don't understand the problem. It doesn't look like Greece will ever be able to pay back its debt, which will only get bigger if another bailout is provided. So, If the bailout is an investment, then it was a bad one. But if the EU is trying to achieve a federal economic system like the U.S., then it should accept the fact that it will always have to give money to smaller countries, Greece. California and New York pay more money than they get back from the Federal government. It's not fair, but that's how the system works. So Germans have to decide if the EU experiment is an investment or a duty. Because if it's the former, then yeah, Greece should get kicked out for defaulting on its loans. If it's the latter, then the Germans have no choice but to keep subsidizing the Greek economy.
3
Some more blackmailing,this time from so called analysts.Lets not forget that trouble in Greece(and Europe) started when criminality turned loose on Wall Street and "The City of London".Why not letting Goldman Sachs pay for greek debt,the bank that helped Greece to fool the EU when applying for EMU membership?
40
Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Franklin Roosevelt’s Secretary of the Treasury, proposed after World War II that Germany be converted into a “pastoral” state to prevent Germans from launching any more wars against mankind. Roosevelt had some sympathy for the idea, but it never went anywhere. I myself have always believed that Henry was onto something important and would like to see his idea considered again.
2
The tension will remain unless the tribal wall comes down, even by a little. There are plenty of blames to go around but bygone is bygone. Who did what will never fix anything if stakeholders refuse to apply past lessons to the future. And the real lesson is that EU needs more than monetary union
The irony is that it is reported that there are about 200,000 Greek MDs practicing in Germany. So Germany is taking advantage of not just monetary exchanges. Imagine what could happen if there were a Grexit and further breaks happened. And how about Greece being in NATO? You have to ask if the German people, at least those 75% in the poll who refused to give Greece a lifeline, understand the ramifications
While folks like Jürgen Habermas have written on Greece's behalf, it is disappointing the once mighty Frankfurt School has not been more vocal or more pragmatic
Then there is Greece. In a strange way, PM Tsipras is actually doing a Nixon-going-to-China thing. Really, there is no one else. Instead of throwing Molotov cocktails, perhaps the Greek people should do some soul-searching. The vulnerable are getting squeezed further but the shipping tycoons probably won't be cancelling their weekend cruise on the Mediterranean. The common perception is that many have moved their assets out of the country before capital control. Hard for outsiders to feel sympathy if insiders are not pulled together
So Greek and EU reforms both are necessary for an EU is possible at all
The irony is that it is reported that there are about 200,000 Greek MDs practicing in Germany. So Germany is taking advantage of not just monetary exchanges. Imagine what could happen if there were a Grexit and further breaks happened. And how about Greece being in NATO? You have to ask if the German people, at least those 75% in the poll who refused to give Greece a lifeline, understand the ramifications
While folks like Jürgen Habermas have written on Greece's behalf, it is disappointing the once mighty Frankfurt School has not been more vocal or more pragmatic
Then there is Greece. In a strange way, PM Tsipras is actually doing a Nixon-going-to-China thing. Really, there is no one else. Instead of throwing Molotov cocktails, perhaps the Greek people should do some soul-searching. The vulnerable are getting squeezed further but the shipping tycoons probably won't be cancelling their weekend cruise on the Mediterranean. The common perception is that many have moved their assets out of the country before capital control. Hard for outsiders to feel sympathy if insiders are not pulled together
So Greek and EU reforms both are necessary for an EU is possible at all
Many European leaders see Germany as the standard-bearer of the Eurozone and have no problem with Wolfgang Schäuble's overbearingness. One has to look at his biography to understand why he tends to "monitor members' economic performance and to discipline outliers". He studied law and started his career as an auditor in the revenue agency of the state Baden-Württemberg, and worked his way through the ranks.
Here in the Greek bailout crisis, we see a clash of administrative culture. While the German government is made up of mostly avid technocrats, before the crisis the Greek public sector was bloated, and the bureaucrats widely seen as inefficient and corrupt.
Here in the Greek bailout crisis, we see a clash of administrative culture. While the German government is made up of mostly avid technocrats, before the crisis the Greek public sector was bloated, and the bureaucrats widely seen as inefficient and corrupt.
18
"Germans “find themselves with 70 billion euros of taxpayer money in hock in Greece and asked to write a chunk of it off, which they told German citizens would never happen,”"
That includes an unexamined issue. Germany bailed out its banks for their Greek errors. Bankers were saved from their moral hazard as lenders. They were made whole on their loans and profits despite their massive mistakes, all at the cost to the taxpayers of assuming that hazard.
Now the German government dare not face what it did, dare not have the taxpayers pay on the hazard they so unwisely assumed. They blame Greece for giving away taxpayer money to their own wealthy elite.
That includes an unexamined issue. Germany bailed out its banks for their Greek errors. Bankers were saved from their moral hazard as lenders. They were made whole on their loans and profits despite their massive mistakes, all at the cost to the taxpayers of assuming that hazard.
Now the German government dare not face what it did, dare not have the taxpayers pay on the hazard they so unwisely assumed. They blame Greece for giving away taxpayer money to their own wealthy elite.
15
That is at most only partly true. The two banks with the largest chunks of Greek bonds were already partially and the other one completely possessed by the government because it had to be bailed out to avoid another Lehman desaster.
In 2010, Germany was also afraid that the debt crisis would have sunk the Italian and Spanish government finances, if Greece defaulted. They still almost did. In 2011/2012, the 10-year obligations of Spain and Italy topped 7% p.a., which is/was considered unsustainable.
By the way, all the bailout packages before included what we call structural reforms. Greece barely imposed any of these laws because they would have been against the clientelistic networks in the government agencies and the economy aphyxiating regulations in the country. So, even if the forgave these debts now, we would be in the same place in couple of years again. Reforms like the ones necessary in Greece are enacted only, if not enacting them is even more painful because politicians will not be reelected otherwise.
In 2010, Germany was also afraid that the debt crisis would have sunk the Italian and Spanish government finances, if Greece defaulted. They still almost did. In 2011/2012, the 10-year obligations of Spain and Italy topped 7% p.a., which is/was considered unsustainable.
By the way, all the bailout packages before included what we call structural reforms. Greece barely imposed any of these laws because they would have been against the clientelistic networks in the government agencies and the economy aphyxiating regulations in the country. So, even if the forgave these debts now, we would be in the same place in couple of years again. Reforms like the ones necessary in Greece are enacted only, if not enacting them is even more painful because politicians will not be reelected otherwise.
1
"Even an Italian weekly, L’Espresso, showed him on its cover with the headline: “This man scares us, too.”"
That is why he did it. It wasn't just about Greece. It was Greece as an object lesson for anyone else, like Italy, Spain, Portugal, and more.
The attitude to Germany in response is the response to getting that message loud and clear.
Nobody likes or trusts the tough guy who may would make them his next target. I hope the Germans made that choice with eyes wide open, because it goes with the territory of their choice.
That is why he did it. It wasn't just about Greece. It was Greece as an object lesson for anyone else, like Italy, Spain, Portugal, and more.
The attitude to Germany in response is the response to getting that message loud and clear.
Nobody likes or trusts the tough guy who may would make them his next target. I hope the Germans made that choice with eyes wide open, because it goes with the territory of their choice.
8
"But in his view, federalism means not an open-ended commitment to rescuing neighbors but a willingness to abide by accepted rules."
Funny how all of a sudden that sort of comment is thrown around like it's an unreasonable belief!
Funny how all of a sudden that sort of comment is thrown around like it's an unreasonable belief!
19
The US has operated that way domestically for a very long time ...
The current putative leaders of the E.U. - a bunch of Northern European accountants - are not the ones to fix this situation. Unfortunately, the E.U. is based on a set of economic arguments, apparently with gaping holes, rather than on some philosophical or moral platform that would be meaningful to the various tribes - Germans, Greeks, French, etc., etc., etc.
4
Germany owes Greece flexibility now and into the future. Why? As a form of ongoing reparations for the damage and destruction they caused during their occupation of Greece in WW2. The occupation brought about terrible hardships for the Greek civilian population. Over 40,000 civilians died in Athens alone from starvation, tens of thousands more died because of reprisals by Nazis and collaborators, and the country's economy was ruined.
19
That's not helpful.
4
"Germany owes Greece flexibility now and into the future."
And will this be forever, or will there be an end-date? Can we also look at the history of the Greeks, to see whom they've harmed over, say, the last thousand years or so?
Unless there's an end-date, the chances are good that the Greeks will go on happily pontificating about 'dignity' while spending the Germans' hard-earned money.
And will this be forever, or will there be an end-date? Can we also look at the history of the Greeks, to see whom they've harmed over, say, the last thousand years or so?
Unless there's an end-date, the chances are good that the Greeks will go on happily pontificating about 'dignity' while spending the Germans' hard-earned money.
8
Young Germans are tired to be blamed for their fathers mistakes. Imagine if you were constantly blamed for having slaughteredAmerican Indians . The Greeks are dishonest too and cooked their books to get into Europe. They don't collect taxes and borrow money from those who play by the rules. Germany has many poor and unemployed to help out too.
2
This article, like so many others, espouses the idea that Germany, and many others, including Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania (all of whom are poorer than the Greeks) should willingly hand over their money over to Greece. Why should they? The Greeks must get a grip on reality and learn to live within their means. German banks, along with French, British and others, did foolishly lend money to the Greek government. However, the Greek government defrauded its way into the Euro-zone, with the help of two large American derivatives dealers, Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan Chase, and until 2010, its insolvency was hidden behind cooked books.
The bailouts were all about saving European banks from failure as a result of Greek insolvency. That much is also true. It was never about helping the Greek people restore an excessive standard of living and social welfare state that they may have became accustomed to, but could never afford without taking on debt they could not repay. Schauble is correct when he says that Greece would be better off outside the Eurozone. To make him, and Germany, into a pariah, simply for stating what is true, is simply wrong.
The bailouts were all about saving European banks from failure as a result of Greek insolvency. That much is also true. It was never about helping the Greek people restore an excessive standard of living and social welfare state that they may have became accustomed to, but could never afford without taking on debt they could not repay. Schauble is correct when he says that Greece would be better off outside the Eurozone. To make him, and Germany, into a pariah, simply for stating what is true, is simply wrong.
91
Ask yourselves instead why your governments seek to transfer your bank's foolish, insolvent loans to the citizens of these countries by making the banks whole at taxpayer expense. There is nothing laissez faire about this form of capitalism that steals from the many to enrich the few bankers and their bad bets.
1
It takes two to tango. The substantively one-sided blame leveled at Germany in these comments seems counterproductive, if the goal is to solve problems rather than score points and stake out ideological turf.
25
The reason why the focus is more on Germany rather than Greece is that the solution that Germany insists on, harsh austerity with no debt relief, is universally acknowledged by everyone who is honest to themselves to be futile. It will not solve the problem. It will just plunge the Greeks into prolonged and greater suffering. So the question that naturally arises is why then do the Germans insist on this non-solution? Are the German leaders stupid? Are the Germans cruel and vindictive and they just want to punish all the Greek people, including total innocents like children and the yet unborn? Or are the German leaders weak and small-minded and scared of the challenged posed by an obvious call to greatness? Most people who criticize Germany seem to think the second case prevails but I think it's the third.
Merkel should go on television and talk to her people about how in exchange for structural reform to eliminate tax cheating and corruption, she will offer a rescue package that does not strangle Greek economic growth and includes real debt relief. Then she should also announce that she will push for Eurozone reforms that eliminate incentives that gave rise to the unsustainable situation wherein Germany sells manufactured goods to Eurozone countries who pay for them using money borrowed from Germany.
Merkel should go on television and talk to her people about how in exchange for structural reform to eliminate tax cheating and corruption, she will offer a rescue package that does not strangle Greek economic growth and includes real debt relief. Then she should also announce that she will push for Eurozone reforms that eliminate incentives that gave rise to the unsustainable situation wherein Germany sells manufactured goods to Eurozone countries who pay for them using money borrowed from Germany.
1
If the blame appears one-sided, perhaps that is because the relationship between Germany and Greece is "one-sided" and consequently the "solution" imposed on Greece was one-sided (Greece was forced to agree to it despite knowing that the formula upon which it was based was doomed to failure).
No. Germany's hard-turn right echoes the recent history here in the US in other areas. These are reactionaries -- we all have 'em! -- whose damage is felt across the US and in other parts of Europe no less than Greece. Yes, racism is part of the mix. But above all, the people of Greece are being asked to carry the burden of guilt when it's international bankers who created the mess.
1
Germany has put billions and billions of euros in taxpayer money towards bailing out a country that has no will to reform its economy and public sector, collect taxes from its wealthy citizens, or change its way of thinking. When Schauble suggested that Greece exit the eurozone, he implicitly acknowledged that they would default on their debt and that the troika (including German taxpayers), would not be paid back. Germany and Schauble are not opposed to helping the Greeks, but if fiscal irresponsibility and bailout-seeking become the norm, the euro will die; what appears to be self-interested obstinance is in actuality a strong commitment to a responsible, strong Europe and euro.
41
Bitcoins anyone?
Of course Germany will insist that everyone follow the Eurozone 'rules'. You would too if the rules are rigged to favor you.
Germany's bitterness and lack of compassion has earned it no friends. The same industriousness that's catapulted it to the region's largest economy has also made the country a contemptuous bully.
I'd rather they reform the Union without selfish members such as Germany — everyone needs to have skin in the game, and no nation should be allowed to coerce its less powerful peers.
I'd rather they reform the Union without selfish members such as Germany — everyone needs to have skin in the game, and no nation should be allowed to coerce its less powerful peers.
12
C. from where do you get your insight? "Contemptuous bully" "Bitter" "Lack of Compassion"? Germany has been nothing but helpful.
The Eurozone was created in at the behest of the French without full and proper planning. Imagine a system of monetary union without a political union. The early history of the US.
The history of the EU is based on binding together of France and Germany (coal union) which expanded slowly to include the BENELUX, etc. Germany was always the submissive partner to France.
Germany is not being a bully but rather voicing the rational opinion. Like in a household, get your financial affairs in order since money doesn't grow on trees and the breadwinner is not a bottomless ATM. This what the Germans, Latvians, Finns, Dutch, et al are saying to Greece. Someone needs to speak the truth.
The Eurozone was created in at the behest of the French without full and proper planning. Imagine a system of monetary union without a political union. The early history of the US.
The history of the EU is based on binding together of France and Germany (coal union) which expanded slowly to include the BENELUX, etc. Germany was always the submissive partner to France.
Germany is not being a bully but rather voicing the rational opinion. Like in a household, get your financial affairs in order since money doesn't grow on trees and the breadwinner is not a bottomless ATM. This what the Germans, Latvians, Finns, Dutch, et al are saying to Greece. Someone needs to speak the truth.
2
For the last 50 years, Europeans had built a culture of celebrating, not denigrating each others culture and national attributes that give it its vibrant charm and make it the number one tourist destination on the planet. It has fostered the Erasmus generation of pan-Europeans, who have studied, inter-married and cross-pollinated to make it almost unthinkable that the major European nations could ever go to war or try to impose one nation´s values, religion or politics on another. Until now, when the German press has reverted to its nationalistic, paternalistic and populist mode that led to disaster in the 20th century. Yes - all the things that they are saying about Greece have some basis in fact. But they shouldn´t be saying them, because the things the Greeks fired back with, do, too - and the fear that Europeans have of German revanchism lies just beneath the surface. When Gorbachov allowed Germany to reunite, many thought it was a mistake. Germans, don´t throw it all away!
13
Abo, have your read the Finnish or Dutch press? It is not just Germany voicing these opinions.
2
Why this relentless anti-German push by the NYT? American guilt that the Germans on the whole have shown themselves to be much better world citizens than the Americans this century (Iraq, global warming, ...)? That the Germans, even despite their Nazi past, have now accumulated more moral authority than the Americans? Is it that the German way of life is superior to the American? Or is the White House approving if not orchestrating this, as Obama throws another hissy fit because Merkel told him to take a flying leap the last time they talked on the telephone?
Let's put it this way. The NYT is risking its reputation here, with its aggressive, punishing, contemptuous tone towards Germany. Hey, if you round up a couple of experts in a world of 7 billion people, you might even be able to do a story about it.
Let's put it this way. The NYT is risking its reputation here, with its aggressive, punishing, contemptuous tone towards Germany. Hey, if you round up a couple of experts in a world of 7 billion people, you might even be able to do a story about it.
39
Rely to "abo," who wrote, in part:
"The NYT is risking its reputation here, with its aggressive, punishing, contemptuous tone towards Germany."
This is known as shooting the messenger, usually done by someone with no credible rebuttal.
"The NYT is risking its reputation here, with its aggressive, punishing, contemptuous tone towards Germany."
This is known as shooting the messenger, usually done by someone with no credible rebuttal.
19
@Ron Cohen. No, it's known as flinging the words of the NYT back at it, to make the point how stupid they sound.
There are no facts in this article by the way, so nothing to rebut. But you probably didn't notice that.
There are no facts in this article by the way, so nothing to rebut. But you probably didn't notice that.
17
I disagree that there is any such anti-German bias on the part of the NYT, but rather just a more objective and critical assessment of Germany's role in the forced austerity that has led to this crisis. In any case, the American press should be pressing Germany for an attitude adjustment, given the VAST sums that the US contributed to reconstruction and rebuilding of their infrastructure following the two World Wars in which Germany was the aggressor. Even tiny Greece forgave Germany's debt and did not seek reparations for the massive damage done to its people and economy (including horrendous atrocities and the starvation of 50,000 Greeks). Despite the historical kindness and largesse of the US, Greece and other European nations that 50-60 years later have allowed Germany to regain its economic prowess, we now have sourpuss Schäuble arrogantly dictating terms and demanding conformity to his own cultural attitudes of inflexibility and blind obedience to rules. Austerity is a failure and has brought Greece to its knees. Most economists agreed that this was the predictable result of the German-led austerity demands, and the only country that has truly benefited from these policies has been Germany. Perhaps these austerity policies were intended to fail so as to force the utter submission of countries such as Greece, Spain Portugal and Italy to submit to German-led EU sovereignty of all matters economic?
1
If Grexit was a better option than bailing out Greece in Germany's reckoning why did Germany then mobilised support for the latter course? Is this double talk by Germany reflective of its regret on the Greek bailout decision or meant to appease its own public that's furious on such a decision which is going to add to their tax burden? If it's the former consideration, it's going to cause serious misgivings among the members of EU and the Eurozone, already scarry of the German dominance over Europe? If, it's out of the domestic compulsions, it suggests serious gap between the German government and the public. Both ways it reflects poorly on the Chancellor Angela Merkel and her ruling dispensation.
1
Maybe the conflict also reflects poorly on Greek profligacy. All Germany wants is for Greece to follow the rules. Why is that bad? If the Greeks don't want to follow the rules, then maybe they should leave the Eurozone. Nobody is forcing them to stay.
Greece insists that everyone keep supporting them despite not being willing to change. Their culture of entitlement, corruption, and cronyism has created a failed economy that doesn't belong in the Eurozone. They've taken a lot of money from the troika and don't have anything to show for it because they've made little effort to change. Greece is their own enemy.
Creating an external enemy is a favorite technique of demagogues. Germany, despite being the country which has contributed the most money to Greece, has unjustifiably been turned into an easy target. First, their very dark past can always be used against them. Second, their willingness to speak the unpleasant truth about the situation is necessarily very unflattering to the egocentric Greeks. Very unfair to the Germans.
Greece leaving the Euro, despite that pain, would surely be better than the years of pain and conflict from this latest "agreement".
Creating an external enemy is a favorite technique of demagogues. Germany, despite being the country which has contributed the most money to Greece, has unjustifiably been turned into an easy target. First, their very dark past can always be used against them. Second, their willingness to speak the unpleasant truth about the situation is necessarily very unflattering to the egocentric Greeks. Very unfair to the Germans.
Greece leaving the Euro, despite that pain, would surely be better than the years of pain and conflict from this latest "agreement".
50
"Their culture of entitlement, corruption, and cronyism"
Incredible that you're qualified to make such a sweeping statement about an entire nation. Are you intimately familiar with a broad cross-section of lazy and selfish Greek people? Or are you assembling a narrative to fit some morality play about the consequences of borrowing?
Incredible that you're qualified to make such a sweeping statement about an entire nation. Are you intimately familiar with a broad cross-section of lazy and selfish Greek people? Or are you assembling a narrative to fit some morality play about the consequences of borrowing?
7
The austerity approach is like putting debtors in jail. It punishes them but you can't get payments on the debt from someone in jail.
1
C. calling the kettle black? You chastised the whole German nation in your posts. Fred Swartz was absolutely on target with his comments.
Have you ever lived outside of the US? Have you ever lived in a southern European country? I have in several and Swartz is correct.
Have you ever lived outside of the US? Have you ever lived in a southern European country? I have in several and Swartz is correct.
People come before rules!
How does it help the Greek economy to fire a redundant worker who has no other job to go to? How does it help to advance the retirement age of a worker, if it blocks another, jobless worker from moving in to his/her position?
Growth and the beginnings of prosperity must come first. Then structural reforms will not only be possible, but Greeks will have incentives to make them work. This is the approach the United States took toward Germany after World War II. Rebuild first; worry about repayment later.
In fact, almost all of Germany's World War II debt was ultimately written off, not just the 50% formally agreed to in 1953. (Most of its World War I debt was written off as well.) See http://tinyurl.com/np2ra37 Pages 7-9.
So much for rules!
How does it help the Greek economy to fire a redundant worker who has no other job to go to? How does it help to advance the retirement age of a worker, if it blocks another, jobless worker from moving in to his/her position?
Growth and the beginnings of prosperity must come first. Then structural reforms will not only be possible, but Greeks will have incentives to make them work. This is the approach the United States took toward Germany after World War II. Rebuild first; worry about repayment later.
In fact, almost all of Germany's World War II debt was ultimately written off, not just the 50% formally agreed to in 1953. (Most of its World War I debt was written off as well.) See http://tinyurl.com/np2ra37 Pages 7-9.
So much for rules!
16
WWI debt was unreasonable and which led to the rise of Hitler. War reparations are not comparable to the Greek debt.
Structural reform can go hand-in-hand with economic stimulation. Opening the professions and job markets, slashing red tape across the board, education reforms, fiercely attacking corruption and elitist nepotism make the economy competitive. The issue is cultural. You can not make someone into an incentive / risk taker. Even in Germany, as an American, I am looked at askance for my initiative. For those Greeks who do desire to their own Horatio Alger stories, they need the freedom which currently doesn't exist under the current bureaucracy. Ask any Greek-American whose family has succeeded if his parents or grandparents could have been so successful in Greece?
Greece needs an intervention and the EU has been an enabler for too long.
Structural reform can go hand-in-hand with economic stimulation. Opening the professions and job markets, slashing red tape across the board, education reforms, fiercely attacking corruption and elitist nepotism make the economy competitive. The issue is cultural. You can not make someone into an incentive / risk taker. Even in Germany, as an American, I am looked at askance for my initiative. For those Greeks who do desire to their own Horatio Alger stories, they need the freedom which currently doesn't exist under the current bureaucracy. Ask any Greek-American whose family has succeeded if his parents or grandparents could have been so successful in Greece?
Greece needs an intervention and the EU has been an enabler for too long.
2
He may have overstayed his point. But he does have one. People come before rules? Ok. Let's play this out. Debt forgiven. Now what? Greece needs more money, right? Where is it going to get that money? Germany and France? Assuming the Germans and French don't storm the castle for having to pay higher taxes so that they can subsidize the Greek economy, wht happens to the second loan if the Greeks are unable to pay back that money? Should that debt be forgiven too? Unless the Greeks create another industry other than Tourism, it's not likely going to create enough jobs for all its working age citizens that will enable it to generate enough taxes/revenue to get out of the hole it dug itself. So maybe it's better that the Greeks confront this problem now, rather than later.
2
And 53% of Greece's debt was written off in 2012-13. But you didn't know that, did you?
1
The Greek leaders engage in decades of profligacy, allow tax evasion on a massive scale and hire GOLDMAN Sachs to prepare a fraudulent report to support their entry into the EU and it's financial problems are all Germany's fault. Ridiculous. It is about time that countries and their leaders are held responsible for what they do to their citizens and I am not just talking about Greece!
41
You are quite right! Germany and the EU are not fools, indeed they advised Greece to hire Goldman Sachs to ensure that the technical requirements for entry to the Euro were met.
1
I have seen far too many opinions at this point blaming Germany of selective national memory and conscience with regard to debt forgiveness. The German financial situations following WWI and WWII, respectively, are not in the slightest way comparable to what has occurred here with Greece. Whatever sins of which it was guilty, Germany's wartime debts existed in a different time, when much of Europe was literally smoldering. Greece, on the other hand, lied about its national accounts to gain entry to the eurozone, then went on a borrowing spree fueled by nothing other than glee at credit access to a currency whose debts had the blessing of an implicit ECB guarantee. Or so they thought.
50
You're right! So much worse than "whatever sins" Germany was guilty of.
4
What an incredible lack of perspective! How offensive to try to compare the Greek financial crisis to the vast destruction, genocide and atrocities caused by two World Wars in which Germany was the aggressor. The Greek economy was sent back to the dark ages by these wars and the human cost was proportionally enormous, yet Germany was forgiven for its crimes and its infrastructure and economy was rebuilt largely thanks to the Americans.
Like it or not, Germany is a a global power with a tremendous responsibility to Europe and the rest of the world. Of course there is not parity between the horrendous crimes of the Nazis and overzealous Greek borrowers - I'm not suggesting there is, that'd be ridiculous. But to say that Germany can't take a hard line with Greece because it should forever repent for its actions of 70 or 100 years ago is simply immature.
I am baffled at the comparison between forgiveness of loans to Germany after World Wars and the current situation with Greece. The German loans were taken under a brutal dictatorship that was finally undone. Germany was opening a completely new era after a traumatic past. None of this applies to Greece. They were not bombed to shreds. There problems are not caused by a unique catastrophe. The political class is not changing; in fact it is not clear if anything is changing.
I do not disagree that some generosity to Greece may be the best political and financial option. But that should have nothing to do with whether German wartime loans were forgiven or not.
I do not disagree that some generosity to Greece may be the best political and financial option. But that should have nothing to do with whether German wartime loans were forgiven or not.
40
Seriously? Just a brutal dictator abusing the peace-loving German people?
5
Yes, seriously Jeoffrey.
2
A popularly elected brutal dictatorship. I thought "a war to defend states' rights" was the most preposterous case of historical revisionism ever. But "the German people were forced into launching a world war by a brutal Nazi dictatorship" just topped that one.
It's high nigh impossible to find any ideologically neutral reporting on this issue, including this piece. Besides selectively quoting those who comfort his point of view (this is called "confirmation bias"), Erlanger provides zero, but zero quantitative evidence that Europeans in general disapprove (or approve, for that matter) of German's behavior.
Like the fractured euro nations, no single newspaper seems to be able to afford, or to be willing, to do a decent poll of all 19 euro nations.
Like the fractured euro nations, no single newspaper seems to be able to afford, or to be willing, to do a decent poll of all 19 euro nations.
31
One of the best comments thus far! I have not found anything yet in the German, French or Dutch press along these lines yet either.
The Euro-zone will not be joined by any new country for a long time - at least until there are changes that are working for all and there is a generosity of spirit. The Germans have to remember that their history is never far from the surface, however much they want to put it behind them. And having an East German Chancellor who who does not have the "gefuhl" for the European Community is problematic.
2
Go live in Europe for a while to get a grasp of modern France and Germany! Politicians are out of touch with the people
I hope the Euro project will now be destroyed, but if Germany and its vassal states continue with the currency, the euro should be renamed the Deustchmark, and the Eurozone's motto should be "Deutschmark uber alles."
5
Have we all read Robert Reich's article in ""The Nation" ("How Goldman Sachs Profited from the Greek Debt Crisis") about how Goldman Sachs engineered a temporary "improvement" in Greece's debt so they would qualify for membership in the Eurozone, took a healthy commission, and then looked the other way when Greece's debt doubled? The Greeks are just the latest example of the fallout from predatory and unregulated big banks.
100
Goldman may have "engineered a temporary improvement of Greece's debt" but the Greek government knew exactly what they were doing. They wanted to get into the EU so they paid Goldman to do it. They are not the victims of the big, bad bank.
The problem has long been that Germany defines the rules to its own advantage. The perennial German trade surplus is made possible not only by a weak euro, but also by low inflation at home due to a tight fiscal policy. This has many negative ramifications for the Eurozone as a whole, but especially for the weaker economies.
This is a policy that Germany could and should change. For them to blame all of Greece's problems on Greece is more than disingenuous, it is highly cynical. It could be said this "mercantile" policy on Germany's part is a form of economic aggression against its eurozone partners.
See Ben Bernanke's analysis at: http://tinyurl.com/q9gm2u5
This is a policy that Germany could and should change. For them to blame all of Greece's problems on Greece is more than disingenuous, it is highly cynical. It could be said this "mercantile" policy on Germany's part is a form of economic aggression against its eurozone partners.
See Ben Bernanke's analysis at: http://tinyurl.com/q9gm2u5
20
Ben Bernanke's analysis is flawed. He must be angry that Germany didn't hire him as a consultant. He actually demeaned Germany for its ability to maintain its manufacturing base while all other Western nations are losing theirs including the US. In his mind we should give everything to the banks and hope they don't crash the economy again. Ben needs to be quiet!
4
It's rather simplistic to say that german trade surplus is the problem. Especially if you get your facts right: While Germany has a large overal trade surplus, Germany's trade surplus with the rest of the Euro zone is almost ZERO. German imports from the Euro zone have been growing at a much higher rate than german exports to the Euro zone.
Why were the other countries so keen to join the Euro? Could it be that those countries wanted to take advantage from low interest rates (resulting from Germany's economic strength)?
You also have to take into account that the Euro zone is not on its own planet. Germany (and all other countries) has to compete with the rest of the world, including China (that one following a real mercantile policy).
Why were the other countries so keen to join the Euro? Could it be that those countries wanted to take advantage from low interest rates (resulting from Germany's economic strength)?
You also have to take into account that the Euro zone is not on its own planet. Germany (and all other countries) has to compete with the rest of the world, including China (that one following a real mercantile policy).
13
China's surplus has been declining, leaving Germany with the largest trade surplus, not only relative to GDP, but in absolute terms.
I said nothing about a trade surplus relative to other eurozone countries. Those are your words, not mine. The problem with Germany's low inflation and stagnant wage policies is that it forces other eurozone countries to deflate in order to remain competitive.
Read Bernanke at http://tinyurl.com/q9gm2u5
I said nothing about a trade surplus relative to other eurozone countries. Those are your words, not mine. The problem with Germany's low inflation and stagnant wage policies is that it forces other eurozone countries to deflate in order to remain competitive.
Read Bernanke at http://tinyurl.com/q9gm2u5
6
If Greece leaves the Eurozone, it will send a message that there is no remedy if financial difficulties occur, that the only solution is to exit. Germany will be known as a fair-weather friend.
6
How is Germany 'brutal'? After all, from the remaining 17 Euro countries, 14 were alongside Germany, almost half of which being even more strict than Germany. What about those other countries? I have never read an article about the Netherlands or Finland or Slovakia being 'brutal'. Strangely enough, it's only Germany that is being bashed day by day. I call that propaganda. How would you call that?
The author writes: "For decades, Germany saw its role as the financier..." No, this is the role all others wanted Germany to take. And Germans are just a bit sick of it. Also, even the highest Greek officials are trying to blame Germany for everything instead of solving their problems. On greek TV, Mr Tsipras himself blamed Germany for everything. Recently, some other high greek official threatened to send IS terrorists to Berlin. Please think a moment about it! If a high official threatened to send terrorists to the USA, how would you react? Evidence in the last decades shows that the USA would be very likely to bomb that country to ashes. I don't see Germany bombing any other country. Instead, the Bundestag voted in favour of the new program. So in the end, Germany agreed to give even more money to Greece, whereas the Greeks say they don't want to solve their problems and reform, while lying at us, spitting in our face and blaming us for everything.
To me, it's rather Greece that lost its reputation.
The author writes: "For decades, Germany saw its role as the financier..." No, this is the role all others wanted Germany to take. And Germans are just a bit sick of it. Also, even the highest Greek officials are trying to blame Germany for everything instead of solving their problems. On greek TV, Mr Tsipras himself blamed Germany for everything. Recently, some other high greek official threatened to send IS terrorists to Berlin. Please think a moment about it! If a high official threatened to send terrorists to the USA, how would you react? Evidence in the last decades shows that the USA would be very likely to bomb that country to ashes. I don't see Germany bombing any other country. Instead, the Bundestag voted in favour of the new program. So in the end, Germany agreed to give even more money to Greece, whereas the Greeks say they don't want to solve their problems and reform, while lying at us, spitting in our face and blaming us for everything.
To me, it's rather Greece that lost its reputation.
43
Germany has a brutal history which brings painful memories. So Germany is different from the rest.
" The past is never dead. It's not even past." - William Faulkner
" The past is never dead. It's not even past." - William Faulkner
4
But all this does not matter. The real point is that the new program won't help neither Greece nor Europe. In my opinion, the only solution for Greece would consist in massive devaluation (alongside with a haircut and massive structural reforms!) and that would only be possible outside the Euro zone.
Ironically though, this is exactly what Mr Schäuble suggested and he is being criticized for this suggestion (even in this article).
Ironically though, this is exactly what Mr Schäuble suggested and he is being criticized for this suggestion (even in this article).
17
Please let's not start stirring up rumors and conspiracy theories such as Greek officials "threatening to send IS (I presume you mean ISIS) terrorists to Berlin". And I think it is highly disingenuous and offensive to even joke that you "don't see Germany bombing any other country". Some memories are better left dormant.
Instead I ask that you consider three things: 1. A major component of the debts incurred by Greece that made the country insolvent represents huge industrial and military purchases of German products, in great part arranged through German bribes. 2. The money that Germany and the EU are advancing to Greece is primarily used too pay back loans, i.e. goes right back to the creditors and is not used to restart and revitalize the Greek economy. 3. The whole situation was made uncivil by both sides hurling threats and accusations at each other. Yes, the Greeks did make accusations at the Germans (although they did not "spit in your face"); and the Germans made the most of constantly labeling the Greeks as lazy, tax-evading ingrates.
Instead I ask that you consider three things: 1. A major component of the debts incurred by Greece that made the country insolvent represents huge industrial and military purchases of German products, in great part arranged through German bribes. 2. The money that Germany and the EU are advancing to Greece is primarily used too pay back loans, i.e. goes right back to the creditors and is not used to restart and revitalize the Greek economy. 3. The whole situation was made uncivil by both sides hurling threats and accusations at each other. Yes, the Greeks did make accusations at the Germans (although they did not "spit in your face"); and the Germans made the most of constantly labeling the Greeks as lazy, tax-evading ingrates.
9
If we all could be just a bit decent and decorous to admit the plain fact - that we all are self-interested from the tips of our toes to the top of our head!
SO, it is all I can do, every day all day, to just plain get along with someone I love very much, my wife. It's a daily drama and battle, albeit with a lot of humor and affection, just to pass the time in some kind of peace.
SO, how in 'ell can countries get along?? With millions of people pulling all in their own different, self interested ways??
NOT POSSIBLE! That is why mankind has been at war for all of its history, ALL of its history!
SO, is what Germany doing anything else but naked, traditional, historical self interest? A WAR by another name?
The Euro zone has no chance, never did. If we all would admit that then maybe the Greeks, as fellow self-interested human beings, could be given some slack and allowed to rejoin the game.
SO, it is all I can do, every day all day, to just plain get along with someone I love very much, my wife. It's a daily drama and battle, albeit with a lot of humor and affection, just to pass the time in some kind of peace.
SO, how in 'ell can countries get along?? With millions of people pulling all in their own different, self interested ways??
NOT POSSIBLE! That is why mankind has been at war for all of its history, ALL of its history!
SO, is what Germany doing anything else but naked, traditional, historical self interest? A WAR by another name?
The Euro zone has no chance, never did. If we all would admit that then maybe the Greeks, as fellow self-interested human beings, could be given some slack and allowed to rejoin the game.
4
Schauble planned to kick Greece out of the EU since 2010, actually boasting about it to world leaders. Most kept quiet for fear of what would happen if word got out. Others, such as Timothy Geithner, confirmed that Schauble gleefully revealed to him in 2012 highly detailed plans to economically destroy Greece. Does anyone believe Merkel wasn't complicit? The issue goes well beyond a simplistic blame game since Schauble and Merkel made sure that German banksters, after making terrible loans, were bailed out in 2012 by shifting most of the burden to the German people. It's no wonder that the German people are outraged that they're on the hook, but it's Merkel, Schauble, and the Toikia that are to blame for this rupture in Europe. In socializing Germany's debt this became a personal battle between the German people and the Greeks, with Merkel and Schauble now positioning themselves as champions of German populism when it was their allegiance to German banksters, and the betrayal of the common German people, which stoked nationalist anger. Historically German nationalist fury is very ugly, and Merkel and Schauble should be held to task for stirring it up just so they could cover bailing out their wealthy buddies. It's no surprise that German attacks on Greece have been more than about money; they've been vindictive and explicitly racialist, the last thing Europe needs. Spain and Italy's debt ratio means they'll likely be in same position as Greece within the next 5 years.
57
Oh my goodness, it is not about economically destroying Greece, the country is perfectly able to do that themselves. It's about the absolute flawed construction of the Euro that doesn't allow for a country to go bankrupt, leave the Euro or be kicked out if it can't stick to any agreement. The Grexit would be the only thing that makes some sense economically for Greece to get back to its feet and solved its own problems. However, a couple of powerful European countries don't want that. To evoke historical German nationalist fury is totally ridiculous. Have you ever been there? Most Germans are simply exasperated and fed up by the whole topic, it's never ending hell, whatever they do, support a Grexit à la Krugman and Varoufakis, they threaten European unity and risk a break up. If they keep paying, but asks for reforms and changes to be made in exchange, they bleed out the poor Greek. The only thing they could do is to keep paying and shut up. But guess what, not only German taxpayers have a problem with that - taxpayers in the Netherlands, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Austria, Malta and Slovakia also want something in exchange for their spirit of generosity.
1
I love a good conspiracy theory. Yours is not.
This has been a never ending nightmare for the Greek people tool. It was never said Greece's fiscal irresponsibility was not a substantial factor here, it was simply contended that it didn't actually cause the crisis; it was also contended, by the way, that neither did the German people. It's conveniently ignored that the blame was placed with Merkel, Schauble, and the Troika, for erasing all the bank debt by placing it on the German people. "To evoke historical German nationalist fury is totally ridiculous. Have you ever been there?" A remarkable statement since I have, my whole family is from Germany. Germans are disgusted; they have every right to be. There's nationalistic anger in Germany; I experienced it. When trying to raise Schauble's and Merkel's role in this debacle, no one is interested; all I've spoken with are furious with Greece. Every country has nationalistic ugliness; for instance The Somalia Affair in Canada. America is rife with it. When it's said that “a couple of powerful countries don't want” a Grexit, it means France, but means Germany too. The reason there's no mechanism for a Grexit is because France won't let go of the ideal of an EU and Germany wants to remain the largest export nation in the EU. Germany demands repayment and a Grexit; both are impossible. The plan is now to seize Greek assets. Parthenon anyone? How is the German bank bailout a conspiracy? Were Geithner and others lying? Please give an example of a good conspiracy theory.
Does Mr. Erlanger really not know what he is writing about or is he deliberately trying to draw a negative picture of Germany by obscuring the facts? I am not a big fan of Mr. Schäuble but he firmly believes in the European idea and his idea of Greece temporarily leaving the Euro zone (NOT the EU!) is meant to allow for a dept relief for Greece which by the law is NOT at all possible as long as Greece remains in the Euro zone. He believes that Greece can't get on his knees again without a significant "haircut". One can disagree or agree on that but portraying Schäubles suggestions incorrectly or incompletely is not helping.
27
Arguing Greece should leave the EU does not make a person evil. I'd prefer Greece default, take an aid package instead of a bailout, and leave the Euro in exchange for widespread structural reform of its economy.
It's not just about pensions, but about opening professions, improving tax collections and the rule of law, and cracking down on civil service corruption--among other things.
It's not just about pensions, but about opening professions, improving tax collections and the rule of law, and cracking down on civil service corruption--among other things.
16
Greece: Our citizens don't want your bail-out.
The Troika: That's fine, here it is.
Greece: We'll take it in spite of our citizens.
The Troika: That's fine, why don't you leave?
The Troika: That's fine, here it is.
Greece: We'll take it in spite of our citizens.
The Troika: That's fine, why don't you leave?
3
Germany bails Greece out three times and they're the bad guys?
64
They never bailed out Greece, yes they did bail out the creditors!
8
Bailouts really aren't the appropriate term. Short term cash infusions to allow Greece to continue loan repayments (but no debt reduction) thereby buying time for Germany (and its northern neighbors) to transfer their banks' bad loans onto the IMF and ECB (onto taxpayers) don't constitute bailouts. There is more than one bad guy here. This latest "bailout" requires a significant increase in a regressive consumption tax (the VAT) and a significant reduction in their capital stock (liquidating 50 billion in assets, in a depression economy nonetheless at reduced prices) is not a bailout and is not reform. Good luck growing an economy with that environment, whether you fix the pensions or working Sunday's or whatever else you propose. This economy will continue to shrink. This is the last act before making the Greeks the scapegoat for the bad loans made in the past. Yes, the Greeks have a lot of liability here, but so do the Northern Europeans. And this latest game does nothing to solve the real problem and Germany knows it. Hence why they are being called out. Yes, debt reduction alone will not be sufficient. But partial debt reduction is a necessary component for any recovery and this has been absent from any of the past "bailouts." So yes, Germany and it's neighbors have plenty of culpability.
40
It's amazing that the top comments invoke Nazism as an analogy to Germany's treatment of Greece. Greece created their own problems, why do we blame others for their troubles? And for the record, many banks from different countries (including the United States) conspired to fix LIBOR. Germany's the enemy? Give me a break.
53
Precisely why Germany should not be playing the bad cop - they have not yet expiated their bad karma.
1
It seems that the comments generated by this article and similar ones (as well as the article itself) amount very much to finger pointing. Each side has it own reasons for its opinions and biases and each side has its preferred (but imperfect) solutions -- solutions which would either cause serious damage to one vested interest or another or transgress some sacred precepts or strongly held opinions. What NOBODY seems to be doing (except possibly belatedly the IMF) is to figure out exactly what is the best way to get Greece and Europe and Germany out of the mess they are in.
4
Very true. Fault-fixing won't answer the only relevant question: where do we go from here, and how ?
Merkel is seeing her popularity suffer on multiple fronts. Besides the Greek situation, she looks like a troglodyte for her stolid opposition to marriage equality, given what has recently transpired in Ireland and even (for God's sake) the United States. And she just had a really bad PR day, telling little refugee girls Germany simply didn't have room for them. But she's making her bed...
8
Who won? I say South Korea. I have a great Bosch stove, but I don't think I can ever buy another German product. Also have a great LG washer. They most likely they get my business in the future.
7
Electrolux makes a better stove--I have one now. Buy Sweden.
But instead, the Germans “find themselves with 70 billion euros of taxpayer money in hock in Greece and asked to write a chunk of it off, which they told German citizens would never happen.”
Well if that's what they told their citizens, then it was pretty clearly disingenuous. Germany wants to run a tight anti-inflationary monetary policy and a substantial trade surplus, which works for them but does not work for most other eurozone members. It makes their already difficult situation harder. Portugal and Italy in particular have struggled to return to prosperity after the 2008 crisis. That isn't the Germans' fault, but nor are they doing much to help. They are running the system on principles that suit the structure of their own economy but put considerable stresses on the member nations, most of whom need the help more than they do. They should expect that there might need to be sizable and fairly regular fiscal transfers within the zone if they want to maintain a tight monetary policy. Greece in particular would benefit from having the freedom of the drachma to devalue their currency, run higher rates of inflation, and stimulate their economy. The bailout plan on the table does the opposite of all of that, and everyone basically concedes it will fail.
Well if that's what they told their citizens, then it was pretty clearly disingenuous. Germany wants to run a tight anti-inflationary monetary policy and a substantial trade surplus, which works for them but does not work for most other eurozone members. It makes their already difficult situation harder. Portugal and Italy in particular have struggled to return to prosperity after the 2008 crisis. That isn't the Germans' fault, but nor are they doing much to help. They are running the system on principles that suit the structure of their own economy but put considerable stresses on the member nations, most of whom need the help more than they do. They should expect that there might need to be sizable and fairly regular fiscal transfers within the zone if they want to maintain a tight monetary policy. Greece in particular would benefit from having the freedom of the drachma to devalue their currency, run higher rates of inflation, and stimulate their economy. The bailout plan on the table does the opposite of all of that, and everyone basically concedes it will fail.
6
That is Germany which needs to be kicked out of Eurozone, not Greece. Expulsion of Germany would solve most of the Eurozone problems. Germany's massive exports keep Euro from devaluing even more and giving some relief to other EU countries' economies. Moreover, if Germany had its own currency (Deutschmark), that currency would quickly get very expensive in respect to Euro (just as Swiss Frank did) and the remaining Eurozone countries would not be undermined by the German producers, as they are now due to low production costs in Germany. The advantage Germany extracted over the years from being in the Euro, both via external trade in low euros and internal Eurozone trade without fear of currency appreciation, far outweighs any debts it is owed by other Eurozone countries, including Greece.
12
Germany has the only good economy in Europe!
1
Please note that while Germany has a large trade surplus overall, Germany has NO trade surplus with the rest of the Euro zone! German imports from the Euro zone have been growing at a much higher rate than German exports to the Euro zone. So, what exactly is the "advantage" Germany extracted from being in the Euro?
If the Euro was only good for Germany and bad for all others, why were the other countries so keen to join the Euro zone (btw, Germany was not keen at all and was rather forced into the Euro)? Could it be that those other countries wanted to take advantage from much lower interest rates (resulting from Germany's economic strength)?
If the Euro was only good for Germany and bad for all others, why were the other countries so keen to join the Euro zone (btw, Germany was not keen at all and was rather forced into the Euro)? Could it be that those other countries wanted to take advantage from much lower interest rates (resulting from Germany's economic strength)?
Firstly, while it may be marginally better than most other Eurozone economies it is not so "good" at all. Secondly, one has to ask why exactly is German economy better that that of its neighbours? Germans pretend that it is due to some outstanding governance and work ethics on their part, while in reality it is all mostly due to historic advantages they managed to negotiate for themselves when euro was set up and milked ever since.
1
So many commentators advocat a Marshall Plan for Greece. The German part of the Marshall Plan was a loan of 1.4 billion, that is 28 $ per person in Germany. Greece already received 300 billions, that is 30,000 $ per person in Greece. Even adjusted for inflation that is quite a difference.
30
The Marshall Plan was a gift, not a loan (at high interest), and it came with a 50% write-down of Germany's debt. Meanwhile, one of the most corrupt countries on earth, Ukraine, is trying to get a 40% write-down of its debt and non-repayable aid.
Unless Germany and other leaders of the EU get behind making it also work for the weaker economies, the EU is unlikely to survive in its current form.
7
Greece needs to quit the euro and get a real government and a real economy. And as for Germany, I don't know what to say. If the Greeks are like an irresponsible child who just wants to have fun, the Germans are that one kid in the class who charms all the grown ups, is smart and handsome and hard working, and deep down inside is a psychopath. Punishing them severely after they destroyed Europe and had to be stopped ... didn't work. After they destroyed Europe even more the second time, they got a serious whipping but then some kinder and gentler treatment … and that seems to have corrected their arrogance for a couple of generations, but that's about it. What's next if this continues?
6
The following is a piece of dialogue from Thomas Mann's 1926 novel The Magic Mountain. I sent this as a comment to an earlier piece on the Greek financial crisis, but I think it is worth repeating as it sheds light on the causes of the conflict, which are not necessarily economic, but ideological in the broadest sense of the term. Clavdia, a Russian, is speaking to Hans Castorp, a German.
"I find it terribly reassuring," she said, letting the inhaled smoke pour back out, "to hear that you are not a passionate man. But, then, how could you be? That would be a degeneration of the species. Passion means to live life for life's sake. But I am well aware you Germans live it for the sake of experience. Passion means to forget oneself. But you do things in order to enrich yourselves. C'est ça. You haven't the least notion how repulsively egoistic that is of you and that someday it may well make you the enemy of humankind." (Tr. Thomas Wood)
"I find it terribly reassuring," she said, letting the inhaled smoke pour back out, "to hear that you are not a passionate man. But, then, how could you be? That would be a degeneration of the species. Passion means to live life for life's sake. But I am well aware you Germans live it for the sake of experience. Passion means to forget oneself. But you do things in order to enrich yourselves. C'est ça. You haven't the least notion how repulsively egoistic that is of you and that someday it may well make you the enemy of humankind." (Tr. Thomas Wood)
8
Saying stuff like the, Clavdia came to a bad end.
Germany is such a well-run, highly regarded country the world over that a Greek exit from the European Union will do nothing to tarnish its reputation.
15
Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy went through the same austerity program that is demanded of Greece. If anything, this will be the third time Greece is being bailed out.
The people spoke. They did not want the program. Now it is being shoved down their throats. What are the chances of a third bailout succeeding?
The people spoke. They did not want the program. Now it is being shoved down their throats. What are the chances of a third bailout succeeding?
24
Loans only to pay off loans, courtesy Goldman-Sachs bandits --- http://www.thenation.com/article/goldmans-greek-gambit/
2
And the other countries are not doing so well either, just not as poorly as Greece. Germany is imposing the wrong rules at the wrong time. Meanwhile Germany is running a huge trade surplus as they benefit from a too weak euro for their country.
4
merkel has totally lost control of this situation. with some forethought and courage she could have led europe on to the next level but instead she's letting it crumble in her hands.
10
Greece lied to its partners about its finances when it was brought into the EU. Greece lied to its partners and its citizens as it operated within the EU. Greece has been granted a huge bailout from its fellow EU taxpayers, but has not kept its part of the loan bargain. Germany has just been honest. Even if not publicly, most intellectuals agree. Greece needs to develop and operate a real government. Greece is the problem, not Germany.
191
Germany uses their 'honesty' as a weapon.
I have an ex-girlfriend like that.
I have an ex-girlfriend like that.
4
...and Greece went even further into debt because of the Athens Olympics, which failed to meet expectations for income.
The problem with the entire Euro zone is something we solved with our federal system and revenue sharing (under Nixon...and continuing).
The other problem here is debt forgiveness, which even the IMF is proposing.
"Austerity" doesn't work...except for the richest. As for the rest, as the "Tea Party" apologists for "austerity" cried out during a 2012 presidential debate, "Let them die!"
The problem with the entire Euro zone is something we solved with our federal system and revenue sharing (under Nixon...and continuing).
The other problem here is debt forgiveness, which even the IMF is proposing.
"Austerity" doesn't work...except for the richest. As for the rest, as the "Tea Party" apologists for "austerity" cried out during a 2012 presidential debate, "Let them die!"
8
The government of Greece lied to the EU, AND TO IT'S OWN PEOPLE, during entry to the Euro.
Loans only to pay off loans, courtesy Goldman-Sachs bandits --- http://www.thenation.com/article/goldmans-greek-gambit/
Loans only to pay off loans, courtesy Goldman-Sachs bandits --- http://www.thenation.com/article/goldmans-greek-gambit/
8
Whenever an article includes the phrase "some analysts say," one should assume the article is propaganda. What defines a person as an analyst? and, some analysts say one thing and some say another.. So what?
52
Germany would be smart to come clean and explain what they really think of the Greeks. Greece would be smart to cut their ties to the EU and make it on their own.
5
How did it go the last time the Germans tried to make Europe into Germany. They have a chance here to drop their misplace superiority and help out.
10
Many people have said how great America is that it can take money from a "rich" state and give to a "poor" state e.g. New Jersey to Mississippi. As a New Jersey citizen and taxpayer (pay and pay and pay) I'm not so happy and don't think its so great...and I understand, even if many others don't, the man in the German street.
13
The sentiment is reasonable on the surface, but like Europe is starting to, the US would weaken or fall apart if that were not the case. So your money buys you stability that is probably worth a lot more to you than you realize.
2
What I don't get is this. If exiting the Eurozone would be a good idea for Greece (as Paul Krugman has argued in this newspaper) then why should Germany's reputation be at risk for supporting it?
Poor Germany -- damned if it does; damned if it doesn't.
Poor Germany -- damned if it does; damned if it doesn't.
66
This is a ridiculous article. As someone who negotiates all day every day (and is German heritage), this is obvious. OBVIOUS.
10
The main problem is that the rules-based system Ms. Merkel's Germany pushes so hard is very much in Germany's interest and does not benefit the southern ("periphery") economies. This is because of the fixed currency Eurozone and unless Germany recognized its deficiencies, the path to Euro break-up is fairly certain. Please see the link to Mr. Bernanke's blog on why and how this is so - a blog which Mr. Krugman also cites today.
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/ben-bernanke/posts/2015/07/17-greece-and-...
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/ben-bernanke/posts/2015/07/17-greece-and-...
13
George Santayana said, "Fanaticism consists of redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim." That is clearly what Germany has done to Greece. Instead of adhering to the goal of revitalizing as well as reforming the Greek economy, they have "redoubled" the austerity regime that has already pushed Greece into a Great Depression, made it impossible for them to repay their debts, and brought Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and his anti-austerity Syriza Party to power. Chancellor Angela Merkel and her Finance Minister Wolfgang Schauble have seemed more intent on crushing Mr. Tsipras and humiliating Greece than focusing on making the European Union (E.U.) work politically as well as economically. There is absolutely no empirical support for austerity, as Nobel economist Paul Krugman keeps on pointing out in these pages; yet the fanatical "austerians" as he calls them seem more intent on this failed policy than the political reality at hand. The very idea of Greece, the gateway to the West and a NATO member, being forced out of the E.U. in the insulting and oft-mentioned "Grexit" by Herr Schauble is an outrage that only a myopic focus on money could justify. It is unfortunate the Ms. Merkel has been unable to show the leadership demanded in this moment by pushing Schauble's objections aside and extending a firm, but more generous hand to Greece.
59
Merkel wants to break Greece into a failed state, in order to keep Italy, Spain and Portugal in line. And it's working .... SICK SICK SICK. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/10/germany-greek-pain-...
1
Within living memory the barbaric Germans violated evert tenet of western civilization and decency itself. Now the same ugliness seeks to destroy the country where our morality and polis were norm. We should have broken up Germany after WWII anddispersed it's citizens to begin anew in the barren camps they created .
Ugh. Another mainly one-sided headline seeking German bashing article from my beloved NYT. Let's see - before this week's agreement, Germany had put 86 BILLION Euros into Greece. After this next round, they have agreed now to put in another 32 Billion Euros. Going towards people that draw Nazi symbols on Angela Merkel (who grew up in East Germany under Soviet rule) and protest them non-stop. Schäuble's idea of having them leave the Euro currency (not the EU!) for some years is to HELP Greece get back some competitive advantage, not punish them.
Just because Germany is the biggest economy in Europe doesn't mean the NYT has to non-stop blame them for everything -- when the Finance Ministers met, from the 19 Euro countries, 16 WERE AGAINST IT. When the politicians met, there still was a majority against, until after 17 hours of negotiations Germany, France and Greece (with Donald Tusk, Pres. of the European Council) came to an agreement.
By the way, there are already discussions in Germany about raising taxes in order to cover this new bailout (maybe around 3%) -- this needs to be paid by German taxpayers. Would we Americans be willing to shoulder this for another country who spits in our faces while taking our money after cooking their own books and not making any reforms (e.g. tax evasion!)? I think not.
I expect more balanced reporting from the NYT. These recent articles are now bordering on "yellow press": more about grabbing attention rather than in-depth analysis.
Just because Germany is the biggest economy in Europe doesn't mean the NYT has to non-stop blame them for everything -- when the Finance Ministers met, from the 19 Euro countries, 16 WERE AGAINST IT. When the politicians met, there still was a majority against, until after 17 hours of negotiations Germany, France and Greece (with Donald Tusk, Pres. of the European Council) came to an agreement.
By the way, there are already discussions in Germany about raising taxes in order to cover this new bailout (maybe around 3%) -- this needs to be paid by German taxpayers. Would we Americans be willing to shoulder this for another country who spits in our faces while taking our money after cooking their own books and not making any reforms (e.g. tax evasion!)? I think not.
I expect more balanced reporting from the NYT. These recent articles are now bordering on "yellow press": more about grabbing attention rather than in-depth analysis.
111
Where would the German economy be if not for the biggest bailout in human history - aka the Marshall Plan? Germans owe everything to bailouts but now they won't return the generosity that's been accorded to them.
13
"an American in Germany"
Great job of ignoring every issue and being wounded and hurt. Those issues are covered in the comments here. They aint that tough.
Great job of ignoring every issue and being wounded and hurt. Those issues are covered in the comments here. They aint that tough.
2
No, Germany doesn't owe everything to the Marshall plan. Please do your homework; here's the link:(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan) I am happy that the reader "an American in Germany" is spot-on. I am also very disappointed by this continued bashing in the NYT and reader's comments.
4
How about GREECE losing its reputation? Oh no, it has lost it already! Amazing, the warped ideas and the sudden surge of anti-German sentiments of the most alarming kind!
54
Germany, like Great Britain and the United States, is one of those countries that you want as a "friend"...because having Germany as a "friend" is slightly (but only slightly) better than having Germany as a "enemy."
9
The EU is debating a bailout of bank investors who happen to have too much exposure to Greece. Private gain, public liability, and so on. They're not really bailing out Greece.
Given this, German would, in the eyes of many, be restoring its reputation, not sacrificing it, if it scuttled this bailout.
Given this, German would, in the eyes of many, be restoring its reputation, not sacrificing it, if it scuttled this bailout.
5
The major European powers (as well as the US) were happy when Germany was paying the bill. Now that we dare have an opinion lets bring up WW2 on every occasion. Well it's our money and the Greeks did not have to accept it.
As to US self-righteous criticism? Have you wondered why your banks lent trillions to homeowners in the years leading up to 2008? I did not see the US public expressing outrage over Bank executive fat compensation packages while million of homeowners filed bankruptcy. The only glimmer of outrage was the Occupy Wall Street which faded into oblivion.. No country is beyond moral reproach. Look in the mirror before bringing up WW2.
As to US self-righteous criticism? Have you wondered why your banks lent trillions to homeowners in the years leading up to 2008? I did not see the US public expressing outrage over Bank executive fat compensation packages while million of homeowners filed bankruptcy. The only glimmer of outrage was the Occupy Wall Street which faded into oblivion.. No country is beyond moral reproach. Look in the mirror before bringing up WW2.
74
Before telling us to forget about WWII, where, let me remind you, debt was the least of it (perhaps you might remember a world in ruins, millions murdered, horror beyond recounting), consider the debt on which you were given massive relief. If you truly believe Greece deserves no such relief, at least put your money where your mouth is and repay YOUR debt, plus all interest that would have accrued in the interim. Only then will you appear as something other than utterly hypocritical bigots.
4
"I did not see the US public expressing outrage over Bank executive fat compensation packages while million of homeowners filed bankruptcy." -
If that's the case, you REALLY have not been paying attention.
If that's the case, you REALLY have not been paying attention.
2
*I did not see the US public expressing outrage over Bank executive fat compensation packages while million of homeowners filed bankruptcy.* you've got to be kidding me! The whole country was outraged. The problem is that our government was completely captured by the banking elites. Wall street was bailed out. Main street didn't even have a seat at the table. We expressed outrage. The problem is that no one with any power was listening.
Read Matt Taibbi's "Griftopia"...
*The financial crisis that exploded in 2008 isn’t past but prologue. The grifter class—made up of the largest players in the financial industry and the politicians who do their bidding—has been growing in power, and the crisis was only one terrifying manifestation of how they’ve hijacked America’s political and economic life.
Matt Taibbi has combined deep sources, trailblazing reportage, and provocative analysis to create the most lucid, emotionally galvanizing account yet written of this ongoing American crisis. He offers fresh reporting on the backroom deals of the bailout; tells the story of Goldman Sachs, the “vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity”; and uncovers the hidden commodities bubble that transferred billions of dollars to Wall Street while creating food shortages around the world.*
Read Matt Taibbi's "Griftopia"...
*The financial crisis that exploded in 2008 isn’t past but prologue. The grifter class—made up of the largest players in the financial industry and the politicians who do their bidding—has been growing in power, and the crisis was only one terrifying manifestation of how they’ve hijacked America’s political and economic life.
Matt Taibbi has combined deep sources, trailblazing reportage, and provocative analysis to create the most lucid, emotionally galvanizing account yet written of this ongoing American crisis. He offers fresh reporting on the backroom deals of the bailout; tells the story of Goldman Sachs, the “vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity”; and uncovers the hidden commodities bubble that transferred billions of dollars to Wall Street while creating food shortages around the world.*
1
Most of the commentary on both sides has been recycled over and over again in the past couple of weeks. In an attempt to offer some additional perspective, it might be worth noting that West Germany undertook immense investment at the cost of its citizens to reintegrate the old dilapidated Soviet East Germany. Where would modern Western Europe be without that sacrifice. That Germany has reformed itself and built an economy that can contribute as it has shouldn't be undervalued.
45
Germany won't accept that greater unity in the EU and eurozone means greater central fiscal authority and the transfer of wealth from members such as Germany and France to less wealthy members. If it's politically impossible, then the recent "deal" for the Greeks will fail (because Germany opposes debt relief), Greece will exit the eurozone, and the European experiment will suffer a major defeat. Germany will be responsible, not Greece.
12
And Germany is somehow responsible for the Greeks' refusal to pay taxes, have something approaching a work ethic, and acting like a wealthy welfare state?
Let all the PIIGS pay for their years and decades of irresponsible economic behavior.
Let all the PIIGS pay for their years and decades of irresponsible economic behavior.
11
Jack:
My recollection is that it was Germany that insisted on greater central fiscal authority before the euro was launched -- but it lost that battle to France.
My recollection is that it was Germany that insisted on greater central fiscal authority before the euro was launched -- but it lost that battle to France.
4
Germany had no problem in the past with transferring Agricultural subsidies on a regular basis to other countries like France, or paying UK a rebate so they wouldn't have to pay as much of a subsidy to France. Back then it was all part of political deal making, which Mrs Merkel is trying to avoid by claiming everything must be rule-based.
As we remember for the lessons of German history after the second world war also received a loan for the reconstruction of their country and its economy. I think no need to be so critical in a similar situation in Greece. You need to remember the good that was done to Germany and give Greece another chance.
7
Germany had one chance and met its obligations. Greece has had three chances and not met its obligations. And it's government shows no signs of being able to meet its fourth chance.
23
Germany defaulted on its debts after World War I, as well.
1
No, Germany was bailed out twice (free Allied powers money) in 1929 and in 1953. Greece is a small, beautiful country which does not have good governance and financial management. So if one country gets 2 chances even after bombing other countries, putting millions in gas chambers, starting 2 world wars; doesn't Greece with its bad government only, deserve 3 chances?
3
I've seen posts crow on about how the Germans got debt relief... especially after WW2. Oh yes, they did... oddly enough to the tune of half their debt shortly after their country was also cut in half, and one third of it in the east was ethnically cleansed and given to Poland and Russia. On top of paying for their own occupation (though that was the case for all occupations before the modern era).
I don't see a West and East Greece dividing the country or a huge chunk of the coastline gobbled up by Turkey. This isn't even a "but they were clearly in the wrong in that war, sooo..." issue. It was practicality back then, taken on top of the fact that the Cold War was a brewin' - none of which are the case here with Greece. I'm not even from Germany and I sympathize with the inane dogpiling they're getting from people.
You know there was a crowd-sourcing effort to save money for Greece. You like them so much, you so sure a bailout is a good idea, put your money on the table. At least toss in a single Euro before the ask the Germans to do the same for the Nth time.
I don't see a West and East Greece dividing the country or a huge chunk of the coastline gobbled up by Turkey. This isn't even a "but they were clearly in the wrong in that war, sooo..." issue. It was practicality back then, taken on top of the fact that the Cold War was a brewin' - none of which are the case here with Greece. I'm not even from Germany and I sympathize with the inane dogpiling they're getting from people.
You know there was a crowd-sourcing effort to save money for Greece. You like them so much, you so sure a bailout is a good idea, put your money on the table. At least toss in a single Euro before the ask the Germans to do the same for the Nth time.
51
It is hopeless to give more money to Greece; they are basically your deadbeat brother-in-law. The more you loan him, the more he spends. The long conversations where he swears to change and you swear you'll never loan him money again -- those are all hot air. The second he leaves your house, he's off to the casino or the race track, to spend that money you gave him for repairing his car, or feeding his kids.
That is a fact. You do that 2 or 3 or 5 or 20 times and eventually you learn you have to practice "tough love" and cut your BIL out entirely.
That is the case with Greece. They already have defaulted several times. They pay no taxes. They still have retirement at 50 for HAIRDRESSERS. I have never read one single idea for increasing their exports, or introducing some manufacturing so they would have a paying economy beyond "fake government jobs" for their people.
They are going down the tubes, which is terribly sad but also inevitable. Back to the drachma -- and back to historical levels of poverty.
That is a fact. You do that 2 or 3 or 5 or 20 times and eventually you learn you have to practice "tough love" and cut your BIL out entirely.
That is the case with Greece. They already have defaulted several times. They pay no taxes. They still have retirement at 50 for HAIRDRESSERS. I have never read one single idea for increasing their exports, or introducing some manufacturing so they would have a paying economy beyond "fake government jobs" for their people.
They are going down the tubes, which is terribly sad but also inevitable. Back to the drachma -- and back to historical levels of poverty.
In 1929, the Allies finally realized that Germany couldn't pay the war reparations and forgave the debt. The same thing happened in 1953 after the WWII. I have no doubt that sooner or later, the troika will come to the same conclusion and reduce drastically, if not totally, the Greek debt. The question is do you do it now and get the country on the way to recovery or do you do it later and let the Greeks languish for five or more years before taking the inevitable decision.
208
The brutal treatment of Germany by France and Great Britain directly led to the success of Nazism, including the Holocaust and WWII. After WWII France, Great Britain and the U.S. realized that it was better to have Germany with them, than against them, especially given the threat from the former Soviet Union.
3
Brutal treatment of Germany after WWI? Who started the whole mess by invading Belgium?
2
The inevitable decision should be taken NOW. Along with that decision, another decision, to remove Greece from the Eurozone, should also be taken. Banks are no longer foolish enough to lend big sums of money to the Greek government. That is a very good thing. The Greeks cannot expect taxpayers from other countries, many of whom are poorer than they are (ie: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia) to pay their hard-earned money to maintain Greece's welfare state. Nor can Greece expect the Euro, whose founding documents require it to be a hard currency, to be endlessly depreciated in order to help make it possible for Greece to become solvent again. In short, since it is a nation with no fiscal discipline, which habitually elects governments that have no discipline, Greece should return to the Drachma and leave the Eurozone. Then, Greek habits, including voting propensities, government spending policies, and its national love of not paying taxes, will hurt only Greece, and not the rest of Europe.
3
Do not blame Germany for that fact that Greece refuses to grow up and be a responsible member of the European Union.
61
Germans need to decide if they are Europeans or Germans.
9
Why decide? It is no contradiction to be both.
7
Europeans need to decide if they want to be Europeans or German subjects.
13
Greece has lost its reputation.
20
To all commenter that will write here about Germany and WW II: Do you really think that will Greece help to build a sound economy? I think it be a better service to Greece to talk about the problems that affect its government and bureaucracy.
46
MAx
Great question.
So you agree with the IMF that the debt must be reduced for there to be a sound greek economy? Which, the German Finance minister and Merkel have loudly said aint gonna happen?
Nah, just saying stuff huh? The German politburo knows how to social engineer Greece, and teach those Greeks how to be good people. It is obliged to use the euro to do that social engineering while saving German banks and domestic industry by being the exporting China of Europe. Looks like growing up in east germany is a plus for Merkel on this social engineering issue. Behavior modification require suffering. Everyone knows.
Great question.
So you agree with the IMF that the debt must be reduced for there to be a sound greek economy? Which, the German Finance minister and Merkel have loudly said aint gonna happen?
Nah, just saying stuff huh? The German politburo knows how to social engineer Greece, and teach those Greeks how to be good people. It is obliged to use the euro to do that social engineering while saving German banks and domestic industry by being the exporting China of Europe. Looks like growing up in east germany is a plus for Merkel on this social engineering issue. Behavior modification require suffering. Everyone knows.
3
Many were suspicious of Germany's motives when the E.U. stood up. It appeared they would finally control Europe by means other than the wars they waged, but the Greeks are the bad guys in this situation. Their profligate ways - spending money they didn't have and refusing to play by the taxation rules everyone else plays by is why they are suffering. They appear to want to spread that pain using the "spread the pain we are part of a unified Europe" excuse. They are scamming Europe as they have and do their own government and I'm glad Germany is standing up to their extortionist tactics.
19
Given the immense costs Europe suffered in the 20th century due to two immensely destructive wars and the shadow of Soviet expansionism on its eastern flank the concept of the EU seemed a natural antidote. I still think the EU has relevance but lately it has met a severe challenge.
Finding the middle ground in the Greece financial crisis is essential. Greece must undertake certain reforms to improve the fundamentals of its economy and thereby improve its future prospects for resiliency. For its part Germany would do well to remember the implications of the "pooling of sovereignty" nations practice by being EU member states: sometimes you have to meet other nation states halfway and accept some terms that are not what you would prefer.
I am sympathetic to numerous perspectives. I can see why Merkel and Schaeuble have effectively proclaimed the currency of trust has been lost. I can appreciate the French acting as a virtual mediator between Berlin and Athens. And I can understand the Greek people feeling their willingness to undergo five years of austerity has been effectively meaningless or at least highly unfruitful.
Dear Europe,
Can we find a way to stop the bloodletting and economic instability? Once that is done please write a guidebook on effective adult negotiating and send it here: United States Congress, Washington, DC, USA.
Finding the middle ground in the Greece financial crisis is essential. Greece must undertake certain reforms to improve the fundamentals of its economy and thereby improve its future prospects for resiliency. For its part Germany would do well to remember the implications of the "pooling of sovereignty" nations practice by being EU member states: sometimes you have to meet other nation states halfway and accept some terms that are not what you would prefer.
I am sympathetic to numerous perspectives. I can see why Merkel and Schaeuble have effectively proclaimed the currency of trust has been lost. I can appreciate the French acting as a virtual mediator between Berlin and Athens. And I can understand the Greek people feeling their willingness to undergo five years of austerity has been effectively meaningless or at least highly unfruitful.
Dear Europe,
Can we find a way to stop the bloodletting and economic instability? Once that is done please write a guidebook on effective adult negotiating and send it here: United States Congress, Washington, DC, USA.
8
Russia threatens the E.U. from the north and east.
Ukraine's collapse threatens the E.U. from the east.
Immigrants continue to pour across the southern border, but the southern states (Italy, France, Spain and Greece) bear almost all of the costs of defending the E.U.'s border.
ISIS threatens the E.U. from the south as well as from within.
Greece defend the eastern border which is also the EU's border with the Islamic world.
Germans had better figure out soon that THEY need the countries they call the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain).
Ukraine's collapse threatens the E.U. from the east.
Immigrants continue to pour across the southern border, but the southern states (Italy, France, Spain and Greece) bear almost all of the costs of defending the E.U.'s border.
ISIS threatens the E.U. from the south as well as from within.
Greece defend the eastern border which is also the EU's border with the Islamic world.
Germans had better figure out soon that THEY need the countries they call the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain).
No matter how "right" the Greek side is that this austerity isn't working, the problem is that you simply can't expect to keep taking other people's money for years and years and still complain about it. In the end the German citizens see that the Greece hasn't even touched their rich folks to pay up yet expect the German tax payer to do so.
There was years of solidary with Greece among the German people, but the constant complaining and comparing us to 3rd Reich people doesn't really make us want to give more. Most people in Germany sincerely feel bad about the average Greek person who has no job and has to suffer though this. But why don't the Greek direct their hate to their Government who has failed to govern?
I want to see Americans, who pay about half as much tax as the German people, what they would do if they were asked to give their tax payer money for years and years to Mexico.
In the end, both sides are absolutely right. The austerity isn't working. But the one side has the last call: You can't seize German tax money without even trying to ask your own folks to pay their taxes.
There was years of solidary with Greece among the German people, but the constant complaining and comparing us to 3rd Reich people doesn't really make us want to give more. Most people in Germany sincerely feel bad about the average Greek person who has no job and has to suffer though this. But why don't the Greek direct their hate to their Government who has failed to govern?
I want to see Americans, who pay about half as much tax as the German people, what they would do if they were asked to give their tax payer money for years and years to Mexico.
In the end, both sides are absolutely right. The austerity isn't working. But the one side has the last call: You can't seize German tax money without even trying to ask your own folks to pay their taxes.
220
However, the "tax and spend" Blue states seem to subsidize the Red states of our South through federal revenue sharing. This permits, for example, Georgia to offer such a deal to Mercedes-Benz rather than have Mercedes-Benz stay in New Jersey.
The irony is that the American southern states (especially Texas) throw up a lot of talk about seceding from the Union, just like they did in the 1860s. Let them.
The irony is that the American southern states (especially Texas) throw up a lot of talk about seceding from the Union, just like they did in the 1860s. Let them.
The analogy you use is interesting: you ask how we would feel about American dollars going to Mexico, rather than to New Mexico (or any other state). From my American perspective, I thought the Eurozone was supposed to be more like the United States than NAFTA -- one currency, one economic whole. Thus, the analogy I would think of would be how we New Yorkers consistently pay more in federal tax than we get back, and the excess goes to poorer states (mostly in the south). That's what union means: sharing and accepting responsibility for one another (albeit sometimes complaining about it).
Of course, i realize that there are significant differences, including the fact that our federal tax system is the same for all states. But each state also has its own taxes, and they differ widely from state to state. And still the high-tax states like NY subsidize lower-tax states with our federal income tax dollars.
Of course, i realize that there are significant differences, including the fact that our federal tax system is the same for all states. But each state also has its own taxes, and they differ widely from state to state. And still the high-tax states like NY subsidize lower-tax states with our federal income tax dollars.
3
But the US and Mexico are not it in a currency union. Germany and Greece are. This union is arguably far better for Germany than for Greeks, because otherwise the Greeks would never be able to afford German automobiles, industrial goods or services. Germany is an export economy and knew exactly what it was doing by loaning heavily to a far poorer country. They knew they were making a market for their goods where none would otherwise exist.
THIS article is Absolutely Unfair as acting as an Apologist for Greeks who have plundered 500 Billion Euros is NOT going to solve the problem.
GREECE has had several substantial Bailouts already, is the Largest EU Aid recipient, Lied to get into the Euro, Kept Lying & Stealing while no one was watching and now are SHAMELESSLY Mooching off Poor East European Countries such as Slovakia and Latvia.
AS long as the Greeks do not have the Courage/Will to Fight the Machinations of their 1%, Tax Fraud/Evasion, Corruption, they can only blame themselves as "Each Nation Deserves The Kind Of Government They Have".
IT Is Time For Greece For Take Responsibility For Their Actions Or Go Their Own Merry Way.
GREECE has had several substantial Bailouts already, is the Largest EU Aid recipient, Lied to get into the Euro, Kept Lying & Stealing while no one was watching and now are SHAMELESSLY Mooching off Poor East European Countries such as Slovakia and Latvia.
AS long as the Greeks do not have the Courage/Will to Fight the Machinations of their 1%, Tax Fraud/Evasion, Corruption, they can only blame themselves as "Each Nation Deserves The Kind Of Government They Have".
IT Is Time For Greece For Take Responsibility For Their Actions Or Go Their Own Merry Way.
78
Another article might be written about Greek mistakes and another about the interplay of German recalcitrance with Greek malfeasance. But this is an article about the effect of the Greek crisis on German leadership.
Germany, given its historial autrocities, must be forbearing. It has little, if any, moral authority to do otherwise.
8
Germany is well past the period of self flagellation that followed WW2. They owe Greece and other irresponsible countries nothing. Look at a calendar and get a grip on how history has moved on.
2
It is bizarre that the focus of so much attention on the Greek/EZ fiscal crisis has been on the "posture" and "tone" of Germany, the nation that has done the most to carry and support Greece through two previous bailouts. Germany is not alone in wanting to maintain order in the EZ, hold Greece to account for its many previous broken promises and resolve the crisis in a way that consist with the EZ/EU rules, and is both best for Greece (a temporary exist from the EZ?) and the 18 other currency members.
Poor Mutti Angela... how many more billions of euros will she have to allocate to the Greeks before they start to appreciate her?
Poor Mutti Angela... how many more billions of euros will she have to allocate to the Greeks before they start to appreciate her?
51
Maintain order?
Maintain order?
Didn't typing the words give a hint that is not a good defense?
Germany, maintaining order for a thousand years...
But, guess the truth is in those words.
Maintain order?
Didn't typing the words give a hint that is not a good defense?
Germany, maintaining order for a thousand years...
But, guess the truth is in those words.
3
The appearance of the rise of German power scares the world. That fear is not bizarre or irrational. This debate is not solely about money.
"Greece's finance minister at London Conference of 1953 signing a treaty agreeing to cancel 50% of Germany's debt, said Suzanne Moore of the Guardian.
Is this how Mr. Wolfgang Schäuble and Germany paid back to Greece?
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/06/germany-1953-greece-2015...
Is this how Mr. Wolfgang Schäuble and Germany paid back to Greece?
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/06/germany-1953-greece-2015...
10
It's never a good or convincing idea to use a British paper for ANYTHING relating to Germany since we all know how much they still hate "The Germans" and never tire to add to anything that happens in today's Germany either "Blitzkrieg", "Storm Trooper", "4. Reich" or "Fuehrer". It's been enough for many decades - yet, the Brits get away with it.
8
The Greek crisis has provided many examples of terrible leadership from both the Greek and German politicians.
-Scheduling a referendum on the proposal for after the expiration of said proposal
-Not preparing a counter-proposal in advance in response to the referendum
-Lack of a unified message from the troika and EU
-Lack of awareness on the part of German leaders of German stereotypes, and historical context
-Histrionic comparisons of German leadership to Nazis and Nazism
Barack looks better everyday. I'm glad that we have such a competent and thoughtful leader in America.
-Scheduling a referendum on the proposal for after the expiration of said proposal
-Not preparing a counter-proposal in advance in response to the referendum
-Lack of a unified message from the troika and EU
-Lack of awareness on the part of German leaders of German stereotypes, and historical context
-Histrionic comparisons of German leadership to Nazis and Nazism
Barack looks better everyday. I'm glad that we have such a competent and thoughtful leader in America.
13
German banks, mainly, lent Greece far more than they should have & did so knowing the sums lent were greatly in excess of lending norms, but were reassured that this pumping of bottom lines with new 'assets,' once the loans became 'non-performing,' the banks would be & were bailed out 100% by the German govt, i.e. taxpayers. You can't get blood from a stone, but German austerity demands pretend otherwise. For this, the German govt deserves no respect & a great deal of contemptuous caution.
159
Don't forget the role of Goldman Sachs in cooking the books for Greece. And please mention that American banks were among the largest lenders, bailt out by the European taxpayer.
78
That is not accurate. There was a detailed column ( by Cohan) in this very newspaper about that recently. The allegations that Reich and others have made are nonsense. ( I have no connection to Goldman btw )
This article (and most others) tries to blame Greece for the fact that taxpayers are on the hook for the debt. The steps that left the taxpayers holding the bag on obviously bad debt are never examined. In addition, was there interest? Or did people in the know make money betting that these debts would not be repaid? These issues are relevant but rarely, if ever, written about. Perhaps I misunderstand it. If not, then it seems a little dishonest - or biased - not to write about this part of the story.
9
The Eurozone is nothing more than a financing arm of the EU. The mistake was to think of it any differant way. Until it becomes the United States of Europe this will happen again.... http://bit.ly/FF1205ed
2
So, are the French and the Italians concerned about Greece, or is it really about creating flexibility for themselves in future negotiations on their own "bailouts"?
7
Perhaps Italy, Spain, and Portugal should consider joining a Grexit--maybe with France following--offering Germany and its followers a 90% haircut and let's part friends or a hostile parting and a haircut of 100% plus some nationalizations?
4
Why not look farther into the future at the possibility that both Greece and Europe become stronger with Greece out of the Eurozone, making Germany appear pragmatic and of sound judgment in hindsight.
14
A Grexit is best for all parties involved... the sooner the Europeans realize this the better off they will be.
30
Which rules did German banks follow when they made loans to Greece while knowing full well Greece could not repay? Which rules did Germany follow when it used loans to Greece to bail out German banks, instead of doing so directly? Up to 90% of the loans to Greece went straight to German, French, and other non-Greek banks. Which rules did Germany follow when it forced Greece to adopt counter-productive measures that only weakened its ability to repay?
And I wonder which rules will we follow and indict Deutsche Bank for its corporate crimes, such as rigging LIBOR?
I am certain that Herr Schauble would not object if we were to indict DB and ban them from the US capital markets. After all, rules must be followed, regardless of the costs. I am confident that Herr Schauble and Frau Angela would insist we indict DB.
And I wonder which rules will we follow and indict Deutsche Bank for its corporate crimes, such as rigging LIBOR?
I am certain that Herr Schauble would not object if we were to indict DB and ban them from the US capital markets. After all, rules must be followed, regardless of the costs. I am confident that Herr Schauble and Frau Angela would insist we indict DB.
200
Exactly. The German government chose to nationalize its banks' debts. That it is now facing the consequences of its poor decisions should generate exactly zero sympathy. If I were a German citizen, my question would be to my government and why it felt it necessary to bail out the banks and punish ordinary Greeks.
31
I am sure the Deutsche Bank will be fined for its wrongdoing. Will Goldman Sachs be punished for cooking the books of Greece?
19
Surely you jest!
1
May be Germany has decided that EU is not worth keeping together if every one does not follow the rules which Germany thinks are important, and without it Germany will be on the hook to bail out more Greece like crisis. Under these circumstances Germany will be better off without EU, hence Germany is going all out to send this cold and icy message to all EU without caring much for reputation or sensitivities. If it leads to breakdown of EU, so be it.
EU members should buckle up, as it will be bumpy ride and forget about gentle and sensitive Germany.
EU members should buckle up, as it will be bumpy ride and forget about gentle and sensitive Germany.
10
Germany is defending the unity of Europe. It is not alone in its stance towards Greece, on the contrary, 13 of 18 countries of the Euro Zone are on the same page. If there would have been a deal for the unlimited funding of Greece, many of the poorer nation would have left the EU.
26
If the unity of Europe is a business decision, then the Euro Zone is in the wrong business. The driving force behind the Euro community was the sentiment of "never again" and the believe that a closer relationship with other Euro countries would make that wish much more of a possibility.
And, yet, Germany moans and wails and points fingers. The richest country in Europe, and they scorn those less fortunate?
Is Greece less fortunate?
55,000 Greeks were murdered by Germans in WWII.
Schande!
And, yet, Germany moans and wails and points fingers. The richest country in Europe, and they scorn those less fortunate?
Is Greece less fortunate?
55,000 Greeks were murdered by Germans in WWII.
Schande!
9
The relationship between countries like Poland, Germany or Lithuania... is closer then ever. That was on display during the negotiations during the Greek crisis.
To ignore the suffering of the Greek people under the yoke of austerity imposed by Germany is surprising, coming from a nation that has a long history of humanitarianism and benevolence toward its neighbors and regards itself as having a great national soul and a cultural tradition of genius.
10
I assume you are being facetious, since Germany's long history of humanitarianism towards its neighbors AND its own citizens includes two World Wars and millions of German , French, Italian and Polish Jews, Union members and Gays killed in efficient and productive German death camps.
10
Whatever else Germany does or does not have, a "long" history of benevolence towards it neighbors is unequivocally and assuredly not one of them. Shame on Germany then, shame on Germany now.
9
It has become popular to beat up on Turkey for the atrocities committed by the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of WWI.
However, hundreds of thousands of Greeks were also murdered by the Ottoman Empire's army.
Yet the modern country of Turkey, like the modern country of Greece, are key NATO allies.
However, hundreds of thousands of Greeks were also murdered by the Ottoman Empire's army.
Yet the modern country of Turkey, like the modern country of Greece, are key NATO allies.
I agree with this analysis. I think Germany, which has been a very responsible member of Europe since World War II, has made a serious misstep in the attitude toward Greece and other less strong european economies. There are many responsibilities that come with relative power. Perhaps the most important are modesty and generosity of spirit.
171
How can the EU "form a more perfect union," to quote the opening words of the US Constitution?
There are great cultural differences between the US and Europe that make it difficult for us to understand the European mindset(s). There are great cultural differences within the EU that make it different for EU nations to understand each other's mindsets.
The unification of Europe is an age-old dream (or goal). How do you do that? Germany has supporters in the EU, such as Finland and the Baltic states. Greece has much sympathy from southern EU countries--and the US.
German culture is alien to Greek culture, and the reverse is also true. All the EU countries were (and still are) nation states, each with its own Weltanschauung, and there are 19 of them. How can they be melded to allow the EU to form a "more perfect union"? It will take much more than a common currency, open borders, and a European Parliament in Brussels with a passel of economic rules.
This current crisis, by no means over, ought to be turned into "a teaching moment." The most respected political and intellectual leaders of the EU should come together to create a super think tank to ask themselves: how did we get here? why did we get here? what can we do to form a more perfect union? The EU can form a more perfect union, but it will take a lot of time, hard thinking, give and take, and, above all, mutual respect and tolerance. That's what I think after 1:00 am within a limit of 1500 characters.
There are great cultural differences between the US and Europe that make it difficult for us to understand the European mindset(s). There are great cultural differences within the EU that make it different for EU nations to understand each other's mindsets.
The unification of Europe is an age-old dream (or goal). How do you do that? Germany has supporters in the EU, such as Finland and the Baltic states. Greece has much sympathy from southern EU countries--and the US.
German culture is alien to Greek culture, and the reverse is also true. All the EU countries were (and still are) nation states, each with its own Weltanschauung, and there are 19 of them. How can they be melded to allow the EU to form a "more perfect union"? It will take much more than a common currency, open borders, and a European Parliament in Brussels with a passel of economic rules.
This current crisis, by no means over, ought to be turned into "a teaching moment." The most respected political and intellectual leaders of the EU should come together to create a super think tank to ask themselves: how did we get here? why did we get here? what can we do to form a more perfect union? The EU can form a more perfect union, but it will take a lot of time, hard thinking, give and take, and, above all, mutual respect and tolerance. That's what I think after 1:00 am within a limit of 1500 characters.
25
The Germans have been too generous and modest. I live in Berlin and hear what the average German says. They should be upset and have every right to expect that Greece, et al play by the rules. Berlin has its own incredible debt. Why shouldn't the German taxpayer pay Berlin's debt first?
All the comments which cast Germany in a negative light have no perspective of the reality. Germany is not the bad guy.
All the comments which cast Germany in a negative light have no perspective of the reality. Germany is not the bad guy.
2
it may have to do with the Germans' self perception of superiority. However,whatever the moral grounds (are there any in financial deals?) and the political consequences, when you lead and provide for others but suddenly you have to cope with the reality that the other guys have not played their part, it is hard to swallow it.
Maybe Germany needs to make war reparations. It can scold Greece as much as it likes, but Greece didn't devastate Europe and murder millions of people because of their ethnicity or sexual orientation. Greece just bungled its economy. So we forgave Germany, exacted no reparations from them, and then let Germany put the screws on Greece for mismanaging an economy? Is there no one else that sees the arrogance and irony here? So Germany actually won the war against small states like Greece?
148
Hear! Hear!
5
Germany paid reparations until 2010.
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And don't forget the United States implementing history's largest nation building, the Marshall Plan in the reconstruction of Europe and Germany who was a murderous former enemy. Do the Germans learn in school about the money poured into their country by the United States after the war with no demands for war reparations and repayment of prewar debts or have they just forgotten that now they are an economic power? Not only did we pour money into Germany to get them out of the rubble on their feet we bought their goods. We did the same for Japan after the war. Greece did not start WWII where millions died but in fact did not get back the millions Greece was made to finance the German Nazi occupying government. Besides this, Greece wrote down Germany's prewar debt to Greece as did all of the Allies. Thede arguments have been discussed with Merkel's regime to no avail even though the Germans caused millions to die while Greece only crime was financial mismanagement, tax evasions, cronyism.
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