Germany Votes to Move Ahead With Greek Bailout, but Opposition Grows

Jul 18, 2015 · 44 comments
AC (California)
Germany is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either continue to flush taxpayer money down the toilet by subsidizing a burdensome, corrupt, failed Greek state, or see the European Project that it has invested so much in over the last 70 years come partly but significantly undone. If I were Merkel, I would opt for a managed Grexit and re-evalaute them after 10 years, but then the world would scream about how heartless and cruel the Germans are when the Greek economy crashes, and the rest of Germany's euro partners would lose confidence in any real European unity.

At least Merkel and Tsipras have been able to put aside what I'm sure is strong mutual dislike for now to keep Greece in the eurozone for now, but if no reform comes out of it then it will all be for naught and we'll be right back here in another five years.
Sam (Lowell, Vt)
What did Greece spend the loans it has received over the last 10 years on? I feel there is a lot about those loans that is not being reported - at least I am not seeing it. There are a lot of Whys? about the behavior of the lenders and Greece I do not understand.
fritzrxx (Portland Or)
At some point, after a member keeps not carrying its weight, other members say 'Enough. This member cannot contribute its share and should go its way.'

Separation rarely happens in families, but neither EU nor Eurozone is a family. They never planned to take Greece on to help raise it into an adult state.

While viable families rarely put children up for adoption, non-viable marriages regularly split up because of a non-contributing or cantankerous partner.

Also about Greece as Cradle of Democracy, that was the sentimental characterization of city-state Athens, not of all Greece. And the Athenian democracy could not keep itself together much more than a century.
Steve C (Arcata, CA)
Germany could bail out of the EU, too. It takes two to tango. The first "bailout" went to banks and hedge funds. That transferred the Greek's bad debts off of the backs of the oligarchy and loaded it onto to the backs of everyday European, (and through the IMF, American, ) taxpayers. To paraphrase a great American tourist to Europe, Benjamin Franklin: If the European nations don't hang together, they are likely to hang separately.
j. von hettlingen (switzerland)
It is unsurprising that Germans aren't willing to lend Greece more money, saying two bailouts were more than enough, and the situation got worse and worse. The last "Yes" vote had given many lawmakers "political headache".
That Merkel is throwing her weight behind the third bailout, is that she does not want to go down in history as the leader, who oversees the collapse of the Eurozone. She still wants to prove herself as an astute crisis manager.
Uzi Nogueira (Florianopolis, SC)
As Tip O'Neill once said, all politics is local. Politics in any integration bloc is even more complicated. Take the case of the eurozone.

The majority of Germans were against giving up their beloved deutsche mark in favor of the euro. The country's powerful exporting machine and the banking system were greatly benefited from an expanded market and a common currency.

Then came the Greek debt crisis. German taxpayers are asked to underwrite a third costly bailout. Political opposition is expected to grow and will be fierce if Greece or any other eurozone country asks for financial help in the future. All politics is local.
ejzim (21620)
I certainly do not see German opposition as the result of "conservatism," with a bad connotation. Seems more like common sense. Comes a time when all the money in the world will not fix a chronic problem. That's when you give up and cut your losses. I do not believe Angela Merkel is responsible for the failure of the EU. She was not its original promoter. Sometimes, mistakes are made by an entire group. (Take Congress and the Iraq war.) Taxpayers should not be financing these efforts. Banks must be required to shoulder their responsibility. If they made bad loans, they will have to take the losses. They surely cannot "repossess" Greece, the way they did during our home loan crisis. I still think Greece should exit, for it own good. Citizens of the remaining EU countries should insist that their governments require the banks to pay.
Laurette LaLIberte (Athens, Greece)
"Chancellor Angela Merkel and her finance minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, had urged Parliament to back the bailout, which both called “a last attempt” to order Greece’s finances and build a functioning state."

In this entire article, THAT is the biggeest lie. There is nothing in this package that will help anyone but the banks; psrt of the new financing will go to recapitalize the Greek banks that were forced to close two weeks ago, the rest will brink the default amounts current, and that is all that will happen until the newest cuts and auterity measures kick in. All it does is put off the inevitable and ensure that the Greek people sink further into the mire. It will do nothing to help people or to rebuild the economy, either now or in the future.
SW (San Francisco)
The world has been waiting for 6 months for a proposal from Greece as to what it thinks should be done to keeping the Greek people from sinking further into the mire and rebuilding the economy. Other than requesting debt relief, what do ordinary Greeks want their government - not international creditors - to do for them?
Laurette LaLIberte (Athens, Greece)
They have submitted proposal after proposal; each one has been shot down; I have read the proposals in detail. The EZ ministers have repeatedly refused to acknowledge the need for restructuring. Greece didn't want new loans that put them further into debt to repay old loans. They asked for some breathing space to get the economy growing again, put people back to work, and gain the ability to service the debt without having to borrow more money. I don't think that is radical or unreasonable. One intitiative they took, which they must now undo, was to rehire the cleaning ladies, most of them middle-aged women that were cut by ND to shrink the public sector. Syriza fired the over-paid consultants that were used by ND and reallocated part of that money to rehire the cleaners. The present government never denied that the debt must be repaid, what they had a propblem with is the EZ and EU determining in what manner they paid. They had reseaonable ideas on how to service the debt without acquiring more debt, and time and time again they were told "No, you do it our way."

This will further cut the pesnions and raise taxes, and still the debt will not be repayed. They tried adding a VAT to the electirc bills before. It caused a one-time payment of anywhere from 500 - 1000 euros to be added to the eletricity bill, and people lived without electrity because they had no jobs nnd couldn't pay the bill.
Anna Yakoff (foreigner)
That's incredible how media influences the social opinion. A week ago everybody were happy for Greece to have a chance to separate. Now the majority tinks that the EU has to donate more to Greece.
I still think that it would be better for Greece to return its sovereignty back!
Thomas (Singapore)
Picking on the Germans?
Why?
Didn't the already pay for the majority of the funding that was sunk into Greece?

France is spearheading the "Bailout Front" for Greece against Germany.
Why not let France and it's allies pay for the bridge funding and the bailout for Greece instead of calling on Germany to do so?

According to Hollande, Greece is a reliable partner, so funding a few billions for the Greeks should not be much of an issue for France.

Or is it, that France only plays big mouth when calling on others to pay for it?

So if you don't like the Germans, don't ask for them to pay.
Bos (Boston)
Haircuts are needed from everyone and so are reforms

But debt relief can come in many forms. A longer loan term with zero or capped adjustable interest rate pegged to reform and/or inflation can help

While Greece's internal reforms are most important, EU itself needs to do some soul-searching. No one can deny monetary union is an asymmetrical affair benefiting the North and penalizing the South. Additionally, so is human resources. There are 200,000 Greek MDs currently working in Germany. So, Germany is really benefiting from that too

More importantly, austerity is a bad prescription. The Eurocrats need to wake up to that. Instead of squeezing blood from stones, they should look at the race-to-the-bottom policy across EU. The shipping tycoons are threatening Greece with the UK card. So the UK is not without responsibility

In the end, kicking the can down the road at best could only buy EU another three years. Instead, reforms are needed for Greece as well as EU if the Eurocrats want the ideal to last and blossom
Dr. Dickson (Caine)
There are roundabout 380.000 physicians in Germany.

In reality ca. 3000 Greek (< 1 %) physicians work in Germany.
http://www.bundesaerztekammer.de/fileadmin/user_upload/downloads/Stat13A...
Why not check simple facts before posting?
SW (San Francisco)
What do the economically weaker EU countries gain from membership? The ability to work in stronger economies and the ability of hundreds of thousands of recent Eastern European immigrants to quickly access welfare benefits, such as in the UK.
Uzi Nogueira (Florianopolis, SC)
Even before the bailout program at eurozone creditor countries is approved, Greek politicians are talking about another election to replace politically weak Syriza administration of Alexis Tsipras.

As long as a debt write off is not accepted, the fragile Greek political system will continue to be a source of headache for Berlin. This third bailout is far from being the last one.
kushal kumar (Panchkula, India)
The opposition to bailout by a substantial number of members in EU though falling short of negating it is in line with this Vedic astrology writer's prediction made over a passage of time. This writer has been saying that the ongoing planetary impacts suggest fissures among vulnerable associations or unions where money issues are involved. It seems that while Greece gets bailout, show is likely to go on.
t.b.s (detroit)
Why would the planets care or, for that matter, how would they know?
JB (NY)
The tricky thing about democracy is that different groups of people want different things. The Greeks got their chance to vote yes or no for a bailout... do the Germans get the same?
(of course not)
lordonlow (parts unknown)
Neither did Americans. The fall of 2008 was just the beginning....
paddy19 (Ireland)
It is sad to see discussions start with stereotypes bordering on racism. Greeks are not any lazier than any other race, Germans don't work harder than the rest of Europe, the Irish are not a crowd of drunks.

What is true in each country is that a small group of elites have organised the economy to their benefit. It is true in Germany. Greece, Ireland, Russia, China and the US.

The differences arise around what pittance the elite is prepared to share with the middle class.

When the elites are threatened they love to see the little people squabbling. Nationalism is a convenient tool to distract the public.

We need visionary leaders who will remind us that is a union not an economy. Unions are about joining and helping your neighbours not about dominance.

The economics have proven to be false profits...
Especially about the real alternatives to the neo liberal austerity agenda.

The Irish author Brendan Began said the clergy kept telling us about the next world so that we didn't catch what the bas....ds were up in this world.

The economists keep telling us that austerity is the only way to solve every problem so that we don't see who benefits from their agenda.
Lawrence H Jacobsen (Santa Barbara, California)
Here here.

One of the truer assessments of how things really are (besides mine, that is) that I have seen.
lordonlow (parts unknown)
too obtuse and cloudily overreaching.
Alexander (Germany)
Without devaluation, Greece will *never* recover. Even a debt cancelation will not help them. Today, Greek unit labor costs are still three times as high as in comparable economies. This is because Greece increased its wages much faster than any other European country in the ten years before the financial crisis. Greek unit labor costs are so high that it is currently cheaper for Greece to import Dutch greenhouse tomatos than to grow tomatos themselves. And that although Greece has far better conditions for growing tomatos than the Netherlands.

There are only two alternatives for Greece: External devaluation or internal devaluation. External devaluation is what Greece did all the time before the currency union, but it requires their own currency. Thus it is not possible in the eurozone. Internal devaluation is what happened during the last five years and will now continue: The unit labor costs are reduced by lowering wages and pensions. This hurts smal people much more than an external devaluation, but within the eurozone there is no alternative.

The debt cancelation stuff is a red herring. Debt cancelation does not make your economy competitive when your unit labor costs are still three times as high as in comparable countries.
lordonlow (parts unknown)
very astute. in addition, Greece - as with america - cannot possibly talk about going forward without jobs. in america they say unemployment is below 6%. right. I've never seen so much lying... but I'm getting all of my bridges for sale ready. Lots of takers.
Frederick Northrop (Hollister)
I find your statement confusing. From what I have seen, Greek aggregate labor costs are on par with most of the Eurozone. In fact there is an alternative for the Eurozone, but they are not yet convinced. I find it disheartening that Greece is bending to the pressure.
John (Nys)
"The International Monetary Fund is insisting, though, that Germany and other European creditors agree to a much deeper debt reduction than they had so far considered."

One way of handling "debt reduction" could be the IMF setting up a "debt reduction" fund such that each dollar donated to the fund would go to the creditors to reduce the original principal owed dollar per dollar. Sort of a "Go Fund Me" for Greek debt. Those thinking Greece should not have to pay back all their debt obligations could help them by simply writing a check from their own account.

Germany and other countries could be more fully repaid, those feeling Greece should have debt relief can give till it feels good, and Greece can benefit from reduced debt. Am I missing something?
LeftCoastKindofMan (East Coast)
So basically they are the recipients of new debt to pay off old debt. Makes sense in some universe I surmise.
judgeroybean (ohio)
Well, if you're German, what's not to like? Your bankers get their money; Merkel and her cohorts get their pound of flesh. Sounds like a great agreement. Why should the German bankers pay a price for making risky loans? Bankers in other countries, like the United States, don't. So all is well. Have some more strudel, by all means.
Alexander (Germany)
What are you referring to? German banks never have been the main creditors of Greece. Back in 2010, the main creditors were French and Swiss banks. Today, the only private banks that are still highly invested in Greece are Greek banks.
John LeBaron (MA)
It is very hard to imagine a "time out" from the Eurozone as suggested by Mr. Schäuble. Time out really means "adieu." By the same token issuing "new loans to Greece as part of a long-term program." of oxymoronic, since the new loans would only be used to repay older ones, making the term of national debt only longer.

What to do? The big-bucks folks haven't yet figured it out. Eurozone or not, there's no solution short of some form of bankruptcy. Perhaps what was good for General Motors in 2009 IS now good for Greece.

www.endthemadnessnow.org
Arquinto Grib (Fort Wayne)
Since it's now been adequately documented that decision-makers in Germany believe a smaller eurozone would be a stronger eurozone, it would be helpful to have an article with knowledgeable analysis about the repercussions of that point of view, i.e., whether anyone else takes it seriously, etc.
grizzld (alaska)
Fools and their money are soon parted.
Greece is like a bad stock in decline. Trying to catch a falling knife can cause unnecessary bleeding.
Germany is throwing good money after bad in hope of collecting on their original loans to Greece. Showing Greece the exit would have been the better option.
Ann (Berkeley)
Germany benefits from the Euro. "Germany has benefited from having a currency, the euro, with an international value that is significantly weaker than a hypothetical German-only currency would be. Germany's membership in the euro area has thus proved a major boost to German exports, relative to what they would be with an independent currency."
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/ben-bernanke/posts/2015/07/17-greece-and-...
"Currently, the unemployment rate in the euro zone ex Germany exceeds 13 percent, compared to less than 5 percent in Germany. Other economic data show similar discrepancies within the euro zone between the "north" (including Germany) and the "south."
The unemployment rate in Greece is far greater than 13%. Greece is experiencing a humanitarian crisis.
Jan (Germany)
This is correct. However, the Euro was not a German idea. It was France's condition for their consent to the German reunification. France and others wanted Germany to give up their currency as price for their reunification.
Indeed, Germany has to pick up the bills of others, but there are also limitations. You won't make Greece strong by making Germany weak.
Ann (Berkeley)
@ Jan A German attorney friend invited me to a German French conference about unification in Europe in 1969. My attention was focused elsewhere during the ensuing decades. I fully realize Greece will not be made strong by making Germany weak.
From my point of view, a lot of work needs to be done to make the European Union function more fairly for all the nations involved.
See Bernanke's analysis, the link to which is above.
Ronja (Berlin)
Indeed. Thanks to Greece, Germany has a low unemployment rate. Due to Germany, Greece's system is inefficient and corrupt. Sounds like a plan.
rice pritchard (nashville, tennessee)
This is horrific! The banksters in Western Europe, and particularly in Germany, have decided to make Greece an "example", before other big debtor nations in Europe, to be humbled and punished and enslaved for generations to come in order to pay off hundreds of billions of bad debt that are 200% of GDP. Under this agreement the banks and corporations, mostly German, will set up a so called "Trust" (lol) and all the assets of the Greek State will be under their total control. This includes all railroads, airports, and seaports, the electric, telephone, water, and sewer systems, as well as thousands of apartments and office buildings. Adding insult to injury this will even include the historic Acropolis complex of ancient buildings in Athens crowned with the Parthenon---the very symbol of Classical Greece! This Board will have sole authority to decide who gets what part of the revenues and when or even to sell these assets! 80% of revenues will go to the big Banks. Greece will see spending on education and health care slashed. There will be no money for investment in factories, businesses, or infrastructure to give the millions of unemployed Greeks jobs. This is not an economic agreement, this is sheer robbery and extortion! One economist noted that no nation on earth has ever been placed under such severe terms to receive a financial "bail out". This literally surrenders the sovereignty and independence of Greece to foreign banks! Greeks just revolt and refuse this slavery!
Jan (Germany)
Ok, what is the alternative? Germany has already lost billions of Euros, and Germans will have to pay another 3 percent income tax just for Greece. Germany and Greece are independent states, there are no United Stars of Europe, and please explain to the German electorate to spend their taxes outside of their country without any prospects of at least getting something back in 30 years. Why is it unreasonable to request to close the holes in a bucket before pouring in more water? I have Greek friends. Their hope was that EU and Euro membership would force the Greeks to change their mindset and state to arrive in the 21 century. Unfortunately, the Greek state has very much characteristics of the Osman empire structure, e.g. clientelism, and this has not changed much. Even Syriza does not collect taxes from rich Greeks who put their money on Swiss bank accounts. We need both: Help from other Europeans including Germany, and structural reforms to form the foundation of economic growth and competitiveness. Please don't blame the Germans if they wanted answers to the simple question: What will you spend our taxpayer's money for?
Ann (Berkeley)
@Jan Read http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/11/upshot/the-problem-with-a-euro-fix-wha...

"...the American fiscal union is very expensive for rich states. According to calculations by The Economist, Connecticut paid out 5 percent of its gross domestic product in net fiscal transfers to other states between 1990 and 2009; that is, its tax payments exceeded its receipt of government services by that amount. This is typical for rich states: They pay a disproportionate share of income and payroll taxes, while government services are disproportionately collected in states where people are poor or old or infirm."

Seems EU citizens need to understand what happens in a union of countries, especially one with a common currency.
rice pritchard (nashville, tennessee)
Since no one has stepped forward to explain the alternative in this forum---despite its being widely available through the news media -----this is the plan in a nutshell: Greece should unilaterally discount her external debt to ten cents on the euro. Extend payment over ten years with no interest and return to the drachma. Print only what currency is absolutely necessary and balance the year to year national budget with tax hikes on the rich and collecting all taxes owed by anyone and everyone. A weak drachma is certain to make Greek exports competitive again. Get the millions of well to do Greeks scattered worldwide to invest in building Greece's technology and industry up to European levels. End early retirement and clean up government corruption. The BRIC nations have offered aid until Greece can get back from her seemingly endless depression: oil and gas from Russia, consumer goods from China, foodstuffs from Brazil and Argentina. The road back to prosperity will be long, hard and "bumpy", but adopting this economic blitzkrieg being proposed by Berlin will ensure that widespread poverty, misery, bankruptcy, and high unemployment will go on for years if not decades. Other nations have unilaterally discounted their external debt down to payable amounts, including Russia and Argentina, who have offered assistance to the Hellenes. Greece can offer a model and example for other exploited European countries now enslaved in the debtors' prison known as the European Union.
Paul (Long island)
The major issue now remaining concerns dealing with the "unsustainable" Greek debt according to the International Monetary Fund (I.M.F.), a key member of the financial "troika" and the "institution" authorized to oversee the implementation of the new, even harsher, austerity measures Greece has been forced to implement. As Chancellor Merkel implied Greece cannot "afford to repay its public debt." The collision between the I.M.F. and Germany on restructuring the debt will determine whether or not Greece will be able to survive in the Eurozone given the negative impact of the austerity measures (like cutting already low pensions and ending collective bargaining while raising regressive sales, or VAT, taxes) just adopted which appear to preclude any chance of economic recovery in the absence of major debt relief. Meanwhile, the Syriza-led Greek rebellion against austerity has turned into a disaster for Greece and perhaps also for the future viability of the E.U.
Yiannis (Minneapolis)
Let's stop with the stereotypes. Not all Greeks are lazy, tax-evading, state welfare recipients. And not all Germans are heartless, humorless, terminator-like machines.

It is good to see that leaders in Greece and Germany will not let the EU fail. Europeans and Americans together invested for decades in a unified, peaceful Europe. The US poured hundreds of billions in this project, which has worked spectacularly well, giving Europe its first 60 year-long period of peace in ages.
The geopolitical consequences of the Eurozone failing are many and significant. The cost could certainly exceed the sovereign debt of Greece, Italy, Spain and France, combined. Let's hope for continued, enlightened leadership.
J.O'Kelly (North Carolina)
"Ordering Greece's finances" is not sufficient to fix the country's problems. Greece must also make major regulatory changes to create an economy that won't just survive but flourish over the next 50 years. Tax collection reform must be the first change they make and the Greek people must be told in no uncertain terms that tax evasion will be severely punished with very large fines and jail terms for egregious cases. A few months ago the Times reported on a European country that introduced a lottery with business receipts as the only entry tickets. The collection of receipts went up as did records for income earned by former tax evaders. Greece needs to be creative and get everyone on board. Without major changes, we will see the headlines of the past few months repeated a few years from now.