If I were Greece, I'd start making some calls to China. I'd bet China would love to have beachhead in Europe; and in the birth place of Western civilization, no less.
1
I find some of the comments amusing.
Greece is a third world basketcase that should never have been allowed into the Euro. It has a history of default - indeed it has spent 90 of its 180+ years as a free state in default. And the other 90 in various debt programs.
It sidled into the Euro in deceit. None of the reforms promised has happened. Shipbuilders continue to build, untaxed. Over 90% of the professional class - doctors and lawyers included - self report no taxable income. The shadow economy is THE economy, the government is a gross monster of Dickensian proportions, handing out favours as rapidly as it can get them. Greece is internally diseased.
In this context, any bailout is a pyramid scheme. Kudos to Germany and Finland for sticking to their guns.
Now, despite all the rants and screams from Krugman and NYT readers (what planet are they on?), this is what is going to happen: Greece will accept all creditor conditions because it really really wants that bailout. The bailout, under German and Finnish eyes, will be a dripfeed that keeps Greece an inch away from bankrupcy. Every payment tranch will need political concessions - assets privatised, pensions restructured, new taxation policies.
In the end, the Euro will be a fantastic success and a political triumph if it can pressure-transform this banana republic into a modern working state.
Greece is a third world basketcase that should never have been allowed into the Euro. It has a history of default - indeed it has spent 90 of its 180+ years as a free state in default. And the other 90 in various debt programs.
It sidled into the Euro in deceit. None of the reforms promised has happened. Shipbuilders continue to build, untaxed. Over 90% of the professional class - doctors and lawyers included - self report no taxable income. The shadow economy is THE economy, the government is a gross monster of Dickensian proportions, handing out favours as rapidly as it can get them. Greece is internally diseased.
In this context, any bailout is a pyramid scheme. Kudos to Germany and Finland for sticking to their guns.
Now, despite all the rants and screams from Krugman and NYT readers (what planet are they on?), this is what is going to happen: Greece will accept all creditor conditions because it really really wants that bailout. The bailout, under German and Finnish eyes, will be a dripfeed that keeps Greece an inch away from bankrupcy. Every payment tranch will need political concessions - assets privatised, pensions restructured, new taxation policies.
In the end, the Euro will be a fantastic success and a political triumph if it can pressure-transform this banana republic into a modern working state.
1
I read open-mouthed with amazement that the EU would demand Greece legislate those draconian changes immediately before another loan goes through. I wholeheartedly endorse such a move, because I agree that Greece would not realistically pass such laws unless they were forced to with a financial gun to their head.
Realistically, it is a simple choice for the Greeks: continued economic depression from austerity policies while staying with the Euro, or hyper-inflation from abandoning the Euro and issuing their own Greek currency. Unfortunately, most Greeks are in denial, and don't have a realistic grasp of the situation they find themselves in.
To put it more succinctly: either pension checks get cut while getting paid in Euros, or they get cut by getting paid in (hyper)inflated Drachmas. The choice ought to be obvious.
Realistically, it is a simple choice for the Greeks: continued economic depression from austerity policies while staying with the Euro, or hyper-inflation from abandoning the Euro and issuing their own Greek currency. Unfortunately, most Greeks are in denial, and don't have a realistic grasp of the situation they find themselves in.
To put it more succinctly: either pension checks get cut while getting paid in Euros, or they get cut by getting paid in (hyper)inflated Drachmas. The choice ought to be obvious.
In the end, Europeans came to realise that humiliating a nation would not go down well. No matter the Greek transgressions, the idea that somehow an economic powerhouse like Germany and a tourist and light industry country like Greece shared a currency that put them on a par, was an ill conceived concept to start with.
But the euphoria of a united Europe where citizens could travel freely and not worry about having to convert their money into the currency of the country they were visiting clouded their thinking about events such as this and what started in the zone in 2008.
The ill feeling and distrust this has created between the EUs citizens has already fractured the unity of the EU no matter the announced resolution.
But the euphoria of a united Europe where citizens could travel freely and not worry about having to convert their money into the currency of the country they were visiting clouded their thinking about events such as this and what started in the zone in 2008.
The ill feeling and distrust this has created between the EUs citizens has already fractured the unity of the EU no matter the announced resolution.
1
It angers me to see so many people being against Greece at this time. The legitimate right of every human being for decency is denied to them. You judge the Greek government as leftist and use a demeaning attitude. Yet, for Greeks that they woke up one morning owing so much money to some creditors is the only hope for change. The so called good governments brought us at this point.They were in power for forty years. This government has been in power only for 6 months. Greeks did nothing wrong , they went to work every day like you.They woke up one day and they were told they had a debt. What debt is that. Why we owe this money? Germans paid ,but to whom and why? We are wondering , we want to know what happened.Someone got filthy rich from all this. Who? Why do we have to pay for this?
For me Europe is the worse thing that ever happened to Greece. We were not supposed to be a part of Eurozone anyway. Data was manipulated by Goldman shacks (not the Greeks) to show that we have bigger income that we did, so we could enter the eurozone. Sometimes,Ι wonder if we are really a free country. Germany borrows money at a low rate and sells at a high rate. Most of the bailout goes to pay the banks. When will never be able to pay that loan. What did we do to deserve this.
For me Europe is the worse thing that ever happened to Greece. We were not supposed to be a part of Eurozone anyway. Data was manipulated by Goldman shacks (not the Greeks) to show that we have bigger income that we did, so we could enter the eurozone. Sometimes,Ι wonder if we are really a free country. Germany borrows money at a low rate and sells at a high rate. Most of the bailout goes to pay the banks. When will never be able to pay that loan. What did we do to deserve this.
2
Obama and the Republican Congress in another form. Trust - completely absent, and for good reason. Think immigration reform.
A deal is impossible to make. Bankruptees must have debt relief in order to work their way out of debt. The Greeks need more money to maintain their lifestyles. And they need to borrow to pay back what they previously borrowed. Without changing their corrupt economy, they will just need more money next time.
Will the Greeks change their ways? Look who they voted in that promised to reverse reforms already made and the latest referendum should be good clues.
Why, come to think of it, it's a country that voted in a guy promising to deliver other people's money.
A deal is impossible to make. Bankruptees must have debt relief in order to work their way out of debt. The Greeks need more money to maintain their lifestyles. And they need to borrow to pay back what they previously borrowed. Without changing their corrupt economy, they will just need more money next time.
Will the Greeks change their ways? Look who they voted in that promised to reverse reforms already made and the latest referendum should be good clues.
Why, come to think of it, it's a country that voted in a guy promising to deliver other people's money.
Many times I wonder how someone like Obama got elected, not once, but twice. Then I read comments like these and am reminded of the mindset of many. Greece overspends, borrows massive amounts, develops policies that are hostile to business and the private sector and then is shocked when creditors want to be repaid. The elite rise up with their mock outrage over the oppressed. Sounds very familiar to the mindset here in America where we too will soon have to reap what we have sowed.
2
In 2010 the euro was $1,45. Now it is $1.10. In real terms all euro denominated assets are down 30%. What causes a currency to devalue is the assessment of risk, the perception of bad depts, or simply printing more money. Since Greece is in the euro currency, their debts are denominated in euros. So bad debts will eventually devalue the currency they are denominated in, the euro, and they have.
It is not simply the Greek debt. Other countries have debts that they can not devalue their way out of, so it will have to come out of the euro, which is not going to sit well with everyone.
All of this is getting priced into the euro. If Greece is removed from the euro zone it may have some fiscal impact on the exchange rate, but what will be the political impact on the price of the euro?
It is not simply the Greek debt. Other countries have debts that they can not devalue their way out of, so it will have to come out of the euro, which is not going to sit well with everyone.
All of this is getting priced into the euro. If Greece is removed from the euro zone it may have some fiscal impact on the exchange rate, but what will be the political impact on the price of the euro?
A temporary exit from the Euro may be the right solution to this situation. One great problem facing the Greece economy is a lack of competitiveness in export markets. A temporary exit from the Euro would enable its domestic goods to be repriced in drachma. It would be possible for Greece to reform its economy without pressure from Europe to meet existing standards which it currently can't live up to and to be readmitted at a more favorable exchange rate for local goods. The country would become poorer but that is going to happen anyway and it might as well happen with Greece in greater control of its destiny. It might even give the current leftist government an opportunity to smash Greece's oligarchy and empower average people, if it is truly interested in real change.
I would just like to say that this is nothing more than a struggle for power-politics. It is well known that austerity hurts economies in ruin – research from the IMF even supports this. it is idiocy to assume that imposing social welfare cuts, pension cuts, creating downward pressure on wages and then INCREASING taxes will result in economic growth. All this will do is decrease incomes, resulting in less absolute government revenue from taxation. Further, people will also be less willing to spend money, resulting in further contraction of the economy. Overall, shrinking GDP will only increase the dept ratio.
I find it laughable that Germany can walk around with their noses up in the air, as if they're all high and mighty, when it is debt forgiveness that they received themselves that allowed them to be in the position they are in now. I didn't see anyone forcing them and their people into economic ruin after the invasions – and in particular their invasion of Greece – they committed, causing the world to suffer. Merkel needs to resist a history book while sitting in front of a mirror. I'm never buying another German made manufactured product again.
I find it laughable that Germany can walk around with their noses up in the air, as if they're all high and mighty, when it is debt forgiveness that they received themselves that allowed them to be in the position they are in now. I didn't see anyone forcing them and their people into economic ruin after the invasions – and in particular their invasion of Greece – they committed, causing the world to suffer. Merkel needs to resist a history book while sitting in front of a mirror. I'm never buying another German made manufactured product again.
1
Impeach Merkel and all those dangerous minds before history repeats.
The New York Times is missing out on an interesting and important story, that involves the U.S. I would guess that our large number of Greek-Americans are getting "hit" by relatives in Greece and these first, second or third generation folks may be the sole support of a good many in the Old Country. The same situation may exist in Australia, with a huge population of Greek immigrants. What do these immigrants think of the Greek crisis?
Indeed history repeats itself. Germany (with the rest of Europe sitting by) is doing exactly what France and Belgium did with Germany after the Great War. When Germany could not pay its debts, France simply took possession of the Ruhr in 1923 and 1925. But even then, Germany had already, contrary to Greece, received an actual debt reduction from 226 billion gold marks to 132 billion --but still could not pay.
Of course, without its most productive industry, Germany defaulted on the rest of the debt (and France and Belgium found that the Ruhr was far less valuable than they expected).
So indeed the same will happen. With what is left of Greece of any value confiscated and sold at firesale prices, and then placed in Luxembourg, Greece will promptly default again --and I suspect that Germany will find that these companies and assets, just as with the Ruhr, were of far less value than expected.
This is a tragedy for Europe, a clarion call for Greeks to resist, indeed against Democracy #ThisIsACoup!!!!
Of course, without its most productive industry, Germany defaulted on the rest of the debt (and France and Belgium found that the Ruhr was far less valuable than they expected).
So indeed the same will happen. With what is left of Greece of any value confiscated and sold at firesale prices, and then placed in Luxembourg, Greece will promptly default again --and I suspect that Germany will find that these companies and assets, just as with the Ruhr, were of far less value than expected.
This is a tragedy for Europe, a clarion call for Greeks to resist, indeed against Democracy #ThisIsACoup!!!!
1
Tsipras promised his people before the elections things everybody, himself first, knew was not up to him only to deliver.
Had he not called the referendum, he would have gotten away with less to give to and more to take from Europe and with less damage done. Instead, with the referendum he caused more divisions in his party, broke the promises he made to his people, alienated the Europeans and his political,and maybe party's, future is getting grimmer by the hour. In my opinion there is no parallel of amateurism in world politics.
Had he not called the referendum, he would have gotten away with less to give to and more to take from Europe and with less damage done. Instead, with the referendum he caused more divisions in his party, broke the promises he made to his people, alienated the Europeans and his political,and maybe party's, future is getting grimmer by the hour. In my opinion there is no parallel of amateurism in world politics.
It would cost Europe more if Greece left?! I might be missing something here, but why would /should the Germans lend more and by what math would it be more costly? Given the recent and distant past history here, any further aid will also not be paid back so it seems to me that this process is throwing good money after bad. Everyone will suffer with a Grexit, but eventually they will recover, including Greece.
Two of the worst personages of modern Europe. One, a product of the politically correct apparatchik, the other, her brother, a popular socialist with no one else's money in his wallet.
I think the best solution is privatization of over €50 billion Greek asset to pay the debt and temporary exclusion of Greece from Euroclub. The introduction of drahma will stabilize the Greek economy. Meanwhile, the required reforms will be implemeted to modernize the Greek economy. The bailout out money, providing through installments to the population of Greece, will allow them to buy medicaments and necessary provisional minimum. Greece should leave the euro by its own will, save us all from the embarrassment.
Greece has developed a terrible image problem which totally undermines its credibility. This is probably a much more serious issue than the debt itself.
Greeks may not be as industrious as Germans or the Brits. But at the same time they need not be this poor. And their poverty has been aggravated by the austerity demanded of Greece, resulting in less & less people working, shrinking GDP and less tax revenue.
Two important factors need to be factored in.
1. Number of people employed in Greece must return to 2007/08 level. Austerity is counterproductive here. Germany & other EU members should realize their demand for austerity made the problem far worse than it needed to be.
2. Greek leaders should accept a reality that their workers can't match Germans' work ethic & industriousness. And they may remain a little less affluent than Germans/Northern Europeans.
A related factor besides productivity & employment participation is that too many well-off Greeks evade their share of paying taxes. (My understanding on this is inadequate & may even be faulty) The government can enforce it in both direct & indirect ways by raising marginal taxes on high income/high wealth folks, and by levying huge luxury VATs. This is the Greek government's job. If they do that, Germany & other EU countries would relent.
At this juncture leaving the Eurozone should be the very last thing any sensible member nation should consider.
Two important factors need to be factored in.
1. Number of people employed in Greece must return to 2007/08 level. Austerity is counterproductive here. Germany & other EU members should realize their demand for austerity made the problem far worse than it needed to be.
2. Greek leaders should accept a reality that their workers can't match Germans' work ethic & industriousness. And they may remain a little less affluent than Germans/Northern Europeans.
A related factor besides productivity & employment participation is that too many well-off Greeks evade their share of paying taxes. (My understanding on this is inadequate & may even be faulty) The government can enforce it in both direct & indirect ways by raising marginal taxes on high income/high wealth folks, and by levying huge luxury VATs. This is the Greek government's job. If they do that, Germany & other EU countries would relent.
At this juncture leaving the Eurozone should be the very last thing any sensible member nation should consider.
1
For certain, Greece doesn't deserve high marks for its conduct as a Eurozone member. However, the terms now put to them appear severely punitive and they are ultimately destructive of a country, its economy, and its people. Many of the words and photographic images of the leaders advancing these onerous conditions (while I am sure somewhat the result of their frustration) are mean-spirited and frightening.
All those Americans who lecture Europe on how to stay together, need to remember that when US States wanted to leave, the US settled the issue by force. When the dust settled, 628 000 Americans were dead.
Europe, for all its fault, is doing better.
Europe, for all its fault, is doing better.
So, Angela Merkal has brought about the downfall of the EU. Singlehandedly.
The UK will be gone from the EU, by 2017; if not before. France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, will be looking to their own currencies, tomorrow. Vladimir Putin, laughs at us.
Madness,
The UK will be gone from the EU, by 2017; if not before. France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, will be looking to their own currencies, tomorrow. Vladimir Putin, laughs at us.
Madness,
This whole issue is ridiculous, since it stems from the moral attitude that deadbeats are responsible for their own high debts and it encourages bad behavior if we forgive their debt. But that's backwards. Lending money is a risk, which is why it earns interest. The higher the risk, the more interest it earns. Because...if the debtor can't pay back the debt, the lender loses that money. And so it's imperative for lenders to be cautious about who they lend money to, or they won't get it back.
But lately, we've seen the whole situation flip, where all the risk goes on the borrower, and the lender has no worry that they'll lose their money. But if that's the case, then why are they getting high interest rates? That's supposed to be the whole point: The bigger the risk, the bigger the reward; and vice versa. But these days, they want all the reward with none of the risk. And that's absurd. If you don't want to lose your money, don't lend it. And if you want high interest, be prepared to lose all the money you lent. Again, that's the whole reason for charging high interest rates, because you might not get it back.
That's how it's supposed to work, whether it's people, businesses, or countries borrowing the money. And if you lend money and know you'll get 100% of it back, then you shouldn't earn interest beyond the rate of inflation, since there's no risk. This is a basic principle of lending that seems to have been forgotten entirely.
But lately, we've seen the whole situation flip, where all the risk goes on the borrower, and the lender has no worry that they'll lose their money. But if that's the case, then why are they getting high interest rates? That's supposed to be the whole point: The bigger the risk, the bigger the reward; and vice versa. But these days, they want all the reward with none of the risk. And that's absurd. If you don't want to lose your money, don't lend it. And if you want high interest, be prepared to lose all the money you lent. Again, that's the whole reason for charging high interest rates, because you might not get it back.
That's how it's supposed to work, whether it's people, businesses, or countries borrowing the money. And if you lend money and know you'll get 100% of it back, then you shouldn't earn interest beyond the rate of inflation, since there's no risk. This is a basic principle of lending that seems to have been forgotten entirely.
1
I do not understand Tsipras' posturing. Why be a cat selling wolf tickets? I do not understand Greeks' willingness to be internationally humiliated like a dog forced to sniff its own urine. Profligate spending followed by abject begging; it all feels of one character. Nature itself abhors weakness: the young, the old, the poor, the dim. . . . Waiting with your hands down for the bully to stop slapping you upside the head is not a plan. Greece's biggest problem seems to be Greeks who are not for Greece. Plato, indeed; Play-Doh is more like it.
Greece: Never have so many owed so much to so many.
All these people blaming "Germany" should read the European press: it's not just "GErmany", it's a majority of 12 countries demanding a minimum of accountability to Tsipras, who, the world knows perfectly now, hasn't been the most serious elected officer keeping his word.
Not even Putin trusts the Greek's word, would the USA bail Greece out?
Not even Putin trusts the Greek's word, would the USA bail Greece out?
What we are missing in this Greece-Eurozone issue is that people don't get along that well because they really do have huge differences in culture, geography, history, religion, etc. and overeducated people believe that we can create harmonious, larger groups of people, when the smaller model works the best. When you try to make too many people. who have very different ideas of beliefs, agree, you will not get very far. In America, the issues are abortion, education, debt, guns, illegal immigration, religious freedom and liberty, policing, racism, religious liberty, social programs and welfare, taxes, etc. The ability to get large numbers of the human animal to agree on many issues is never going to happen. That truth should of been taught to all children in junior high. Anyone that believes that people, here, in Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Asia, etc. are going to agree to live the same, economically, religiously, or any other way, is in living in la, la land.
"The [West] Germans had no qualms about spending trillions on East Germans."
COMMENT:
Presumably the commenter is referring to the German reunification, when West Germany agreed to assume the debts of East Germany (not "trillions," as this commenter writes – just under $100 billion, as I recall, though those were the days when a billion dollars seemed like a lot of money).
From a purely economic viewpoint, the reunification of Germany struck me then (and still does) as a bad deal for West Germany. Understandably, though, the West Germans didn't look at reunification from a purely economic viewpoint; they were willing to pay a huge premium to unite their country again, and who can blame them? Opportunities like that don't come along often.
Once again, the "Germans" are willing to pay a premium to keep Greece in the Eurozone. If they looked at this from a purely economic viewpoint, they'd probably have walked away long ago. But apparently keeping Greece in the Eurozone is worth a whole lot less to the Germans than Greece had anticipated.
COMMENT:
Presumably the commenter is referring to the German reunification, when West Germany agreed to assume the debts of East Germany (not "trillions," as this commenter writes – just under $100 billion, as I recall, though those were the days when a billion dollars seemed like a lot of money).
From a purely economic viewpoint, the reunification of Germany struck me then (and still does) as a bad deal for West Germany. Understandably, though, the West Germans didn't look at reunification from a purely economic viewpoint; they were willing to pay a huge premium to unite their country again, and who can blame them? Opportunities like that don't come along often.
Once again, the "Germans" are willing to pay a premium to keep Greece in the Eurozone. If they looked at this from a purely economic viewpoint, they'd probably have walked away long ago. But apparently keeping Greece in the Eurozone is worth a whole lot less to the Germans than Greece had anticipated.
I'm of Greek descent, born and living in the US, with many relatives on my father's side still in Athens and the Greek islands. After following the coverage of the Greek/EU crisis the past months and years I must admit I'm torn.
On one hand, I can see that Greece misled the EU to gain entry. It seems well known now that Elstat cooked the books to further hide discrepancies in 2009/2010, and Greece enlisted US investment houses (Goldman) to assist with the deception. I believe that Greeks have unrealistic expectations - how can citizens of a country simultaneously retire in their 50s when simultaneously they're not willing to pay the forms of taxes that support that system? Otherwise, the rest of Europe pays.
On the other hand, many European nations prospered with Greek over-spending, given some are key export driven economies. Some of my relatives drive Mercedes. They made rounds of funding including incremental loans realizing that they weren't actually solving any of Greece's problems. Greece should have played hard ball when the European banks rather than the Troika were their creditors, but that ship has sailed. Additional loans will only service the debt.
By voting "Oxi" last week, I see it is a sign that they aren't yet willing to overhaul their patronage, tax system and closed professions to look more like the other countries in Europe. Until the population wants real change, I'm not sure who benefits from another bail out.
On one hand, I can see that Greece misled the EU to gain entry. It seems well known now that Elstat cooked the books to further hide discrepancies in 2009/2010, and Greece enlisted US investment houses (Goldman) to assist with the deception. I believe that Greeks have unrealistic expectations - how can citizens of a country simultaneously retire in their 50s when simultaneously they're not willing to pay the forms of taxes that support that system? Otherwise, the rest of Europe pays.
On the other hand, many European nations prospered with Greek over-spending, given some are key export driven economies. Some of my relatives drive Mercedes. They made rounds of funding including incremental loans realizing that they weren't actually solving any of Greece's problems. Greece should have played hard ball when the European banks rather than the Troika were their creditors, but that ship has sailed. Additional loans will only service the debt.
By voting "Oxi" last week, I see it is a sign that they aren't yet willing to overhaul their patronage, tax system and closed professions to look more like the other countries in Europe. Until the population wants real change, I'm not sure who benefits from another bail out.
The Germans seem to have forgotten that they lost WWII and were forgiven BILLIONS in reparations that should have been paid to the victors, the U.S. and Europe. While Greek government is something of an oxymoron, more austerity will not work. The Greek economy needs help to grow. And the U.S. Could step in with a few billion to help save the nation that is the cradle of democracy.
Hollande sees what Germany and its hard-line allies can't; that it's not just Greece's fate but also that of the EU that may be decided by today. If rich Europe won't help poor Europe, the whole idea of a united Europe will collapse in bitter disillusion.
And for the many self-righteous AynRandians here (“The Greeks just a bunch of lazy moochers”) , please read Saturday's NYT article, “ Greece's food crisis: families face going hungry during summer shutdown”.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/world/europe/greece-debt-crisis-athens...®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article
This is what “austerity” looks like now. What will it look like when the Eu imposes more of the ame?
And for the many self-righteous AynRandians here (“The Greeks just a bunch of lazy moochers”) , please read Saturday's NYT article, “ Greece's food crisis: families face going hungry during summer shutdown”.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/world/europe/greece-debt-crisis-athens...®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article
This is what “austerity” looks like now. What will it look like when the Eu imposes more of the ame?
' President François Hollande of France warned that failure to find an agreement to keep Greece in the euro would “mean a Europe that is in retreat, a Europe that no longer moves forward.” France, he added, “will do everything to find an agreement this evening.” '
I guess French banks woke up Hollande and reminded him they're up Seine without a paddle if he doesn't keep this carousel of money lending going round and round.
I guess French banks woke up Hollande and reminded him they're up Seine without a paddle if he doesn't keep this carousel of money lending going round and round.
Just one thing : OUR BANKS ARE STILL CLOSED!!! What negotiations can you do under this situation??????
Privatization (confiscation) of Greek public assets to be put in a fund to pay of banks that made risky bets.
A small group of foreign finance ministers and leaders demanding Greece's parliament pass this legislation and that to satisfy the appetite of the same banks.
This is how democracy dies in favor of corporate feudalism.
Greece should walk away from this. Default, exit the Euro, suffer short-term pain but retain and rebuild your nation with your own currency. That is the only path to sovereignty. Take your bitter medicine, but don't sacrifice your life to do so.
A small group of foreign finance ministers and leaders demanding Greece's parliament pass this legislation and that to satisfy the appetite of the same banks.
This is how democracy dies in favor of corporate feudalism.
Greece should walk away from this. Default, exit the Euro, suffer short-term pain but retain and rebuild your nation with your own currency. That is the only path to sovereignty. Take your bitter medicine, but don't sacrifice your life to do so.
i'm guessing now that lagarde is going to be the one to announce the grexit. she has the stature, she's relatively well respected (at least in comparison to the former IMF head strauss-kahn and the german chancellor merkel), and she's been in a lot of the wire photos. boy, is she getting a lot of selfies from the world press!
the finance ministers don't have the stature, and the politicians don't want to seem to be hand puppets for the banks.
the finance ministers don't have the stature, and the politicians don't want to seem to be hand puppets for the banks.
One can agree Greece has spent more than it has taken in.However,It is hard to see how Grexit from the Euro either strengthens the Euro or provides stability for Greece.Would Canada contemplate kicking Quebec out of the Canadian Dollar zone because of their high debt?No of course not because Quebec is an inviolable part of Canada&kicking out Quebec would weaken Canada&its economy&its currency.The USA would also not contemplate kicking out California from the US Dollar zone due to California's high debt for the same reasons.Germany at this moment does not really believe in a united Europe whose center piece is the Euro and helping an in trouble Greece get back on its feet. West Germany spent billions (trillions?) to absorb East Germany and bring the East's economy up to par with the West - a process which continues. Did they believe they had made a mistake absorbing East Germany like Merkel and crew now believe it was a mistake to allow Greece into the Euro? Of course not - Merkel is an East German and appreciates that West Germany was and did pay any price to absorb the East. Post WW2 European unity has ushered in 70 years of prosperity and peace with the dissolution of the Soviet Union and a significant rise in the European standard of living.Merkel and crew need to understand they and the other European countries are family and families take care of each other or devolve back into the destructive tribalism which destroyed Europe through two World Wars and the Cold War.
Germany has been the primary beneficiary of the Euro while Greece has practiced irresponsible fiscal policies. The Euro has leveled the playing field and made German products more competitive than those priced in the marc. While Germany has prospered with a more competitive currency Greece has suffered partially because of the Euro but more importantly from poor economic policy.
Greece needs to adopt policies more consistent with the rest of Europe. On the other hand Germany which continues to benefit from the Euro should show some flexibility.
Greece needs to adopt policies more consistent with the rest of Europe. On the other hand Germany which continues to benefit from the Euro should show some flexibility.
“I’d like to see them demonstrating starting tomorrow in their parliament they’re serious about implementing the changes, legislative and structural, that need to be put in place,” Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny said. “And there are many of them.”
Greece is a small country, classified as a rich economy, but thumbs Its collective nose at the rest of Europe while saying, we have our life style and it is your responsibility to maintain it for us even though your citizens cannot afford to live like us. Greece should be cut loose. That does mean that a lot of people who live and depend on the overgenerous Greek system will experience a life changing event, it means that young Greeks will have to come out of retirement and work for their pensions, and private investors will have to take a loss on their risks that failed. Greece should be forced to survive on its own value which is not enough to support the Greek life style.
Germany has to give in on the debt, and they cannot ask Greece to give up fiscal sovereignty. German business (and government) reaped rewards from that submarine deal they knew Greece could not afford.
Greece needs help in overhauling their fiscal infrastructure - that is not in doubt. They should be asking for and accepting expertise assistance. That shouldn't mean giving up their fiscal sovereignty.
Greece needs help in overhauling their fiscal infrastructure - that is not in doubt. They should be asking for and accepting expertise assistance. That shouldn't mean giving up their fiscal sovereignty.
If I were Greece, I would immediately privatize all my military bases, selling them to the highest bidder. Once Putin, NATO and (who knows) the Chinese get going there should be no problem getting the price up to 50 billion euros. That would give the EU its ransom. Offer a couple of islands to the same bidders and you could raise enough money to save the country from austerity.
Think this is gallows humor? Compared to what?
Think this is gallows humor? Compared to what?
Greece is our Florida. One of the articles noted that some 40% of the coastline of the Euro Zone belongs to Greece. Before the 2008 crash, Greece like Florida, had a second home, retirement home boom creating a prosperity that could not be sustained. The 2008 crash came along with severely declining real estate values and a halt to new construction leading to economic collapse. There was no TARP or similar programs to bail out the Greek banks. Florida is still with us and recovering. That might be a good model for Greece.
Greece should print their own dollars and leave the euro. The transition is going to be difficult either in or out of the euro with years of cost cutting and rebuilding their economy. If Greece stays in the euro they will feel like victims of the Germans and br resentful. If they leave the euro Greeks will still suffer however at least they can keep their honor and move forward knowing Greece will be great once again in the future.
The Germans are really giving it to the Greeks, Greek-style.
The comments would imply that Greece is blameless for its broken economy and that big banks have conspired to crush poor Greece. Germany is correct to doubt that Greece will repay its third bailout in five years. What will be the economic driver of Greece's recovery? Money lent to Greece is money down the drain. If they want to stay on the Euro they need to impose fiscal restraint. Electing a far left government and then voting against reform indicates that the people will not accept the pain necessary to turn it around. Back to the drachma and the continuation of 20%+ unemployment. What a tragedy for the wonderful, hardworking Greek people.
I can only observe, with great sadness, that 60 years of "integration" has not brought the peoples of Europe any closer together. What we now see on full display is our common European political institution run like a regular bank, by short-sighted accountants.
The picture in the article with the Greek finance minister speaks a thousand words; the guardians of the Euro looking with contempt at a representative of Greece´s democratically elected government. To challenge the hegemony of market liberalism, like Syriza did, has a heavy price in the EU. It will be paid in the months and years ahead.
The discussion of responsibility and guilt can wait till tomorrow. So can the much needed debate on the legitimacy of the EU.
Since the Union (intentionally?) has made no advance preparation for a "Grexit", the least we can expect is that it helps reduce the suffering during the coming weeks.
The picture in the article with the Greek finance minister speaks a thousand words; the guardians of the Euro looking with contempt at a representative of Greece´s democratically elected government. To challenge the hegemony of market liberalism, like Syriza did, has a heavy price in the EU. It will be paid in the months and years ahead.
The discussion of responsibility and guilt can wait till tomorrow. So can the much needed debate on the legitimacy of the EU.
Since the Union (intentionally?) has made no advance preparation for a "Grexit", the least we can expect is that it helps reduce the suffering during the coming weeks.
Wow! Someone in Germany has finally figured out that if Greece leaves the Euro, the German government will have to bail out it's own banks. Thus the idea of the "timeout." Why hadn't anyone figured this out before today?
The United States needs to intervene in Greece. There is no good in turning Greece into a failed-state, a vacuum that could be filled by extremists. For that reason, it becomes an issue of national security. Greece is of great strategic importance; more so than Israel, where we focus too much interest. Maybe Greek-Americans need a lobbying group as powerful as AIPAC. As for Germany, Angela Merkel has gotten too big for her "hose". Obama, the conciliator, needs to become Obama, the chairman of the board, and quit tiptoeing around Merkel like she is some Germanic warrior from a Wagner opera. The tail doesn't wag the dog, and WE are the dog.
The Guardian have a headline " surrender fiscal sovereignty in return for bailout, Merkel tells Tsipras"
For those in Congress, FIX News, Neo-Cons, and GOP war mongers: how long you want us to fight endless wars in the midesat on credit cards? Aint 4+ trillions- and counting- for Iraq debacle enough? Will the day come when China and others holding our debt impose such demands on us, like they doing it to Greece now?
For those in Congress, FIX News, Neo-Cons, and GOP war mongers: how long you want us to fight endless wars in the midesat on credit cards? Aint 4+ trillions- and counting- for Iraq debacle enough? Will the day come when China and others holding our debt impose such demands on us, like they doing it to Greece now?
Time for Greece to walk away. They're being bullied into submission by the Czar of Europe (Queen Merkel) and nothing they can do will ever appease Her Highness.
The games played by greece were outrageous and counterproductive, now there is a risk of eurozone collapse. The germans, as usual, are showing the arrogance and brutality that are not unfamiliar from a country that provoked two world wars. It is a moment for germany. Does it want to keep the euro intact or follow demagoges like wolfgang schauble. We cannot permit greece to fall into putin's lap.
The Eurozone was not intended to evolve into a welfare state. Bailing out Greece yet again will set that precedent and inevitably lead to a collapse of the Eurozone. Greece must return to the Drachma and can reapply for Eurozone membership if and when they meet the economic criteria for inclusion. In the short term they can rely on humanitarian aid to help overcome the current crisis.
To take sides in this debate is to perpetuate the problem, clearly both sides, "German and Greek" if you will, are right on some points and wrong on others, but each seeks to polarize the debate to gain advantage, with the media all too eager to go along. Compromise is necessary, not rigidity.
I'm struck by the complaints about what is being asked of Greece, which seem to be little more than a media-taught reaction to the word "austerity".
Among other things, Greece is being asked to allow stores to open on Sunday ... to have competition in the pharmacy trade ... to allow over the counter medication. That's right. In Greece, if you want an aspirin, you buy it at the only druggist in town, during his opening hours.
Among other things, Greece is being asked to allow stores to open on Sunday ... to have competition in the pharmacy trade ... to allow over the counter medication. That's right. In Greece, if you want an aspirin, you buy it at the only druggist in town, during his opening hours.
1
The gross negligence and dysfunction of Germany and her eastern European minions would be hilarious if we didn't know that millions of innocent Greek citizens have been put into high anxiety for weeks.
Now THIS regarding Germany's massive forced privatization demands:
"The Press Project has done some digging on the Luxembourg "Institution for Growth" to which the 4-page eurogroup (German) paper demands that €50bn of Greek state property must be transferred. Guess what? This Luxembourg "institution" is wholly owned subsidiary of German KfW and the chairman of its board is a certain Wolfgang Schäuble."
Germany, after demanding the closure of Greek banks, put a gun to Greece's head and threaten to pull the trigger if Greece didn't agree to turn over its assets at fire sale prices to Germany's coffers.
RUN ITALY YOU ARE NEXT.
Now THIS regarding Germany's massive forced privatization demands:
"The Press Project has done some digging on the Luxembourg "Institution for Growth" to which the 4-page eurogroup (German) paper demands that €50bn of Greek state property must be transferred. Guess what? This Luxembourg "institution" is wholly owned subsidiary of German KfW and the chairman of its board is a certain Wolfgang Schäuble."
Germany, after demanding the closure of Greek banks, put a gun to Greece's head and threaten to pull the trigger if Greece didn't agree to turn over its assets at fire sale prices to Germany's coffers.
RUN ITALY YOU ARE NEXT.
1
They are screaming yelling, hollering, posturing and trying desperately to cut a deal. good for them.
And let me just add, for everybody who's been yelling about negotiations from Iran to Pacific trade, that this is orecisely what you get, when you try to bargain in a fishbowl.
And let me just add, for everybody who's been yelling about negotiations from Iran to Pacific trade, that this is orecisely what you get, when you try to bargain in a fishbowl.
What does Greece profit by staying in the Eurozone? Time for Grexit.
It doesn't matter anymore whether the Germans are greedy pigs or the Greeks are lazy sloths. This system is not working, and the Greeks (and perhaps others, later) need to leave.
It doesn't matter anymore whether the Germans are greedy pigs or the Greeks are lazy sloths. This system is not working, and the Greeks (and perhaps others, later) need to leave.
Creditors want to rape and pillage the assets that are of value and leave nothing behind. Let the creditors take a loss as they chose to risk their investments in the first place. It is they who made a bad bet and it is they who should pay the price.
Germany needs to learn basic economics here. Increasing taxes and cutting pensions, so that the debt can be repaid more rapidly, will have exactly the opposite effect, because Greece is already in a depression. Further austerity will only make that depression worse. Pensioners will spend less because they have less to spend, and all businesses that rely on their purchases will suffer along with them. Increasing tax burdens reduces further the ability to pay wages, which only exacerbates the depression. This is simple economics. We all learned it the hard way in the 1930's. Surely the Germans must remember something of that time -- or more importantly, the time after, when the world rushed to assure that what is happening in Greece today would not happen in Germany.
When will European powers stop this farce, and stop pretending Greece can ever possibly be financially stable and responsible? How many more billions will Europe pour down the bottomless Greek drain?
1
To make a country's people pay for the terrible mistakes of bankers and those borrowing seems terribly wrong. Furthermore, to make the most vulnerable pay the most seems that human beings are going backwards in time and not forwards in consciousness. Even worse, to go with even more austerity when it has proven not to work....Why???? This is all about the banks and always has been. The bankers getting their money back-bailout after bailout. A very small percentage is actually going to Greece-miniscule. That is why Luxembourg-teeny country of banksters-was so concerned today to keep Greece in the European union. It was not because of empathy for the unemployed family that cannot feed their children. Thomas Jefferson said it best when he said, "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." This crisis is proving him spot on. Let us hope that eleven million people matter somewhat more than Goldman Sachs and their trillions.
If Greece gets an ESM loan, they need the full amount upfront, not sequential tranches. They need the IMF tranche €7.2b and they need the EU grant of €38b. Greece in addition needs to generate as much tax revenue as it can without overlapping other programs or making the taxes too high they are unbearable. If they don't have the systems to do it, the old fashioned way can work until they have enough to procure more up-to-date systems. If they have Greeks who live in major cities around the world they can tell the government the best financial revenue generators: parking tickets, foreign real estate taxes, ferry/boat tickets, cruise ship docking fees, etc.
Goals: Pay debts off. Avoid problems. Generate more money. Improve taxpayer benefits. Improve/modernize government agencies. Constantly renovate cities and country. Encourage more visitors. Buy back stuff. Avoid problems. Throw a party.
Goals: Pay debts off. Avoid problems. Generate more money. Improve taxpayer benefits. Improve/modernize government agencies. Constantly renovate cities and country. Encourage more visitors. Buy back stuff. Avoid problems. Throw a party.
Each and everyone of the reported German demands are things that the Greek government either said they would do, sometimes, since for many years, or things that are no brainers that need to be done, structurally speaking, if your economy is not competing. Therefore, what is the problem?
The Germans are being asked to sign off on not only more tens of billions to Greece but to write off, either in fact if by sly book keeping, tens of billions they are already owed. And they should do this with mild and friendly conditions and a smile? "Here is the cash, and here us your cancellation of debt, appreciate if you get back to me next month on your ideas for spending it"
It beggars belief that the very people who want them to promptly hand over their money are the same who get apoplectic that they are asking for conditions. Head shaking really the blithe attitude people take to other peoples properties. Do they miss the essence of the case when big jargon like "austerity" "conditionality" or what have you are employed?
The Greeks always have an option, and this is clearly laid out. What is so wrong with being an independent country with its own currency? Could it be the problem is what the supporters are not saying; that this means Greece no longer gets massive budgets subsidies - outright GRANTS - of billions per year flowing daily from Germans to Greece, at the same time as Greek's government hurls abuse the other way?
The Germans are being asked to sign off on not only more tens of billions to Greece but to write off, either in fact if by sly book keeping, tens of billions they are already owed. And they should do this with mild and friendly conditions and a smile? "Here is the cash, and here us your cancellation of debt, appreciate if you get back to me next month on your ideas for spending it"
It beggars belief that the very people who want them to promptly hand over their money are the same who get apoplectic that they are asking for conditions. Head shaking really the blithe attitude people take to other peoples properties. Do they miss the essence of the case when big jargon like "austerity" "conditionality" or what have you are employed?
The Greeks always have an option, and this is clearly laid out. What is so wrong with being an independent country with its own currency? Could it be the problem is what the supporters are not saying; that this means Greece no longer gets massive budgets subsidies - outright GRANTS - of billions per year flowing daily from Germans to Greece, at the same time as Greek's government hurls abuse the other way?
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"The Germans are being asked to sign off on not only more tens of billions to Greece"
Greece won't get a single Euro from any of this.
It is all debt rollover -- Creditors paying themselves in an internal book keeping transaction.
In the real world, it means creditors wait for their money, earning interest while they wait, which is what lenders do.
A write down or haircut would be the reduction this suggests, but that is not now on offer. It would at best be discussed only after this is done. At that point, no doubt the Germans would say it is no longer necessary.
Greece won't get a single Euro from any of this.
It is all debt rollover -- Creditors paying themselves in an internal book keeping transaction.
In the real world, it means creditors wait for their money, earning interest while they wait, which is what lenders do.
A write down or haircut would be the reduction this suggests, but that is not now on offer. It would at best be discussed only after this is done. At that point, no doubt the Germans would say it is no longer necessary.
26
Austerity begins at home ! Not even in Greece millionaires and billionaires people with indifference will help out there own kind. These mostly elite conservative since about a decade do not use banks in Greece. Because of the common market and no boarders and common currency most rich and internationally oriented like doctors, layers, corporation set up HQ branches out side Greece in the European Countries and some as far as the US, UK , Canada etc. It is poor masses like pensioners, school teacher, farmers, shop keepers etc who like any other country adhered to within the country or local banking institution, that are now closed, Even the politicians are immune to the hardships and misery that the masses burdened with. Essentially something as common as Feta Cheese that US Supermarkets like Publix sold a month ago is not available in the US or even many European Countries. Let alone Greeks within the country who have no real excess to banks, not even others like Publix Supermarket can pay anything into Greek banks, nor other foreign banks conduct business with banks in Greece. For example any Dutch Pensioner living in Greece cannot get their direct deposits form the Netherlands or any other Country any where.
The other bigger problem is Greece did not get into this situation or jam over night nor even within a year.The problem is on going over five years or more Far worst is that credit cards issued in Greece are not honored any where.
The other bigger problem is Greece did not get into this situation or jam over night nor even within a year.The problem is on going over five years or more Far worst is that credit cards issued in Greece are not honored any where.
Greece is asking for an additional >50 billion Euro loan. So, tens of billions more to Greece. (Estimates say they really need north of 80B.)
The past three years have been a charade of support masking the real motivation of european leaders: Covering the debts owed to banks that made bad bets on Greece. Nobody has once actually helped Greece
Tsipras did not make this mess. That fault lies with his predecessors, those who foolishly pushed austerity and those who push Euro monetary policy in directions that support the strongest among them while leaving the weakest to whither.
Germany should be ashamed.
Tsipras did not make this mess. That fault lies with his predecessors, those who foolishly pushed austerity and those who push Euro monetary policy in directions that support the strongest among them while leaving the weakest to whither.
Germany should be ashamed.
47
You comment totally ignores the facts. Many banks and governments in Europe made cash loans to the Greek government so they could cover their cost of running their socialism government and poorly administered (non existent) income tax collection process. In 2010 Greece would run out of cash - run out as in "no cash" absent these loans. These loans were made in good faith to keep Greece afloat. The loans can with conditions that Greece did not fully impose. Prior to January of 2015 Greece's economy was starting to come back and in 2014 ran a surplus ignoring debt service. Many of the loans had reducted interest rates and the lendors also extend the payments out to 2022 to start principal and interest payment. Tsipras did not make the original mess but so sure through his actions made it worse.
Greece needs to help itself, by adopting a better tax collection system, adopting the rule of law as to business operations, privatizing as many government owned enterprises as quickly as possible and the other conditions with the EU asked them to do 5 years ago. Time for Greek to wake up. Really could not disagree with you more - look at the facts.
Greece needs to help itself, by adopting a better tax collection system, adopting the rule of law as to business operations, privatizing as many government owned enterprises as quickly as possible and the other conditions with the EU asked them to do 5 years ago. Time for Greek to wake up. Really could not disagree with you more - look at the facts.
Ok. So the "bad bets" were bets that the Greeks would pay back their loans. Right?
So why should those lenders of "bad bets" loan more money the the twice-proven bad borrower?
There is no way the original loans are going to be paid back.
Why should the Euopean bank lend more?
Why should they make more "bad bets" ?
So why should those lenders of "bad bets" loan more money the the twice-proven bad borrower?
There is no way the original loans are going to be paid back.
Why should the Euopean bank lend more?
Why should they make more "bad bets" ?
That is exactly correct, Tony Nelson.
There's no debt relief from the actual creditors; here the profoundly scrupulous German banksters, masters of risk assessment. Germany doubled down with more loans to finance loans Greece was already incapable of paying. Germany repeatedly asserted they did this because they always believed that the Greeks, which they simultaneously always knew were totally fiscally irresponsible, would pay every penny back. It makes no sense unless you consider that Germany was sure that the Troika could ensure full recoupment no matter how irresponsible German lending practices were. Germany did what every loan shark in history has done and is now using the Troika as knee breaker. Germany, not Greece, is the country of Takers. It defaulted on all of its debts over the last century and received the largest foreign cash bailout in history. Greece must temporarily leave the Eurozone while private equity finances Greece's debt? What could possibly go wrong? Germany believes this will wall off losses. It will, at best, only appear to work in the short term since Greece doesn't have the money and can't generate it. Greece has been insolvent since 2010 and is now in a full blown depression. Germany, not Greece, is about to destroy the Eurozone. Greece is not simply being cut loose from the EU, that would be too simple and sane, instead it's negotiating a deal with Germany holding a gun to its head where private hedge fund managers are being given the chance buy Greece at a bargain price.
28
Sir,
your remarks show a remarkable lack of misunderstanding the Greek / Germany controversy. Actually I personally sense a degree of deep seated and preloaded anti-Germanism that would not be tolerated in this paper if a comment with a similar tone would be directed against Israel and its people. Anti-( any people ) is disgusting and I resent any and all forms of it.
your remarks show a remarkable lack of misunderstanding the Greek / Germany controversy. Actually I personally sense a degree of deep seated and preloaded anti-Germanism that would not be tolerated in this paper if a comment with a similar tone would be directed against Israel and its people. Anti-( any people ) is disgusting and I resent any and all forms of it.
Why would German banks keep pouring money in Greece for so long if they knew it was most likely not to be repaid?
The option not considered is for Greece to seek assistance from the US in terms of aid and loan to tide Greece over the the next 3 years. A US offering may include conversion of Greece's Euros to US Greenbacks. Other nations use the US dollar as official local currency. The U.S. has strategic interests in Greece's stability. And the US can help the IMF (mainly a US funded institution) and other creditors release financial pressure against the Euro-sector - that is a NATO Ally as well as major supporter - direct and indirect - of the war against terror and a door stop against Russian aggression in the Ukraine.
14
All of Europe has strategic interests in a stable Greece. I wonder if they realise that?
I say NO to any US dollars being spent on a Greek bailout. If this country cannot bailout Detroit, we should not bailout Greece
The U.S. which is larger than the Eurozone should step in and provide aide to Greece whether there is a grexit or not. Greece should plan to only abide by terms that are not punitive but rather increased Greek growth. This mess would never happen if their was solidarity among the week Economies. If Spain, Portugal, perhaps Italy and the new Eastern European applicants to the Eurozone indicated that they wanted to leave given Greek treatment, a reasonable deal would happen fast as the German taskmasters would realize there is something at stake.
11
Yeah i agree. The EU is a pathetic institution when considering their goal was to unite Europe. All i see is a country (Germany) trying to bully a country they once invaded. From physical extortion to economic extortion, these bullies lead by Merkel are sticking to their historical roots. what goes around, comes around – I hope.
If there is an agreement with the mandates demanded by the Europeans, the people will not abide by any agreement which sustains austerity. Any laws the Greek governments passes in parliament will simply be ignored...the Greek economy has and will be a cash economy..no or little taxes will be collected.
The Greeks will believe this action equates to World War II German occupation and will rebel at every turn.
The Greeks will believe this action equates to World War II German occupation and will rebel at every turn.
15
That is true. Greeks don't trust each other. They cheat each other in daily life. Keep the money in the wallet or hide unter the mattress, don't pay taxes. Merkel is right that trust has been lost and they want now to cheat in Europe big tme!!!
I'm left-of-center; I voted for Obama twice, for example, and don't regret either decision in the slightest. And most of my family is Greek. But this article disappoints me -- as it should any objective reader. It's so, so tendentious in support of the Greek position.
14
Reporting the truth is not tendentious, it's journalism.
In eastern Europe, the eurozone’s poorest members are furious at the prospect of helping Greece fund better pensions than their own.
A typical pensioner in Lithuania will take home less than half of a pensioner in Greece.
A typical pensioner in Lithuania will take home less than half of a pensioner in Greece.
24
That's a very compelling point. What is the total population of these poorer countries is vs. Germany's?
It cost € 200 a month to rent a flat in Lithuania. Greece is a different ball game with higher military obligations and a much higher cost of living. You starve in Greece for what you can live on in Lithuania.
Germans act so proud about their financial probity. So proud as to weaken the Euro in their pride. Merkel actually speaks of how the basic currency is 'trust', overlooking the fact that the Euro, dollar, yen, RMB, and even the former drachma and Deutchmark are 'fiat currencies, that is, based on trust, not on gold.
Germans would do well to remember not only when their own debts were forgiven after WWI and WWII, but especially how since 1947 their security has been paid for not only by their army and weapons but by US tax dollars,soldiers, weapons and nukes. When the Berlin Wall fell it was Germans swinging the hammers, but others had paid so many of their Cold War bills. It is easier to balance your budget when America is paying so many of your expenses.
Germans would do well to remember not only when their own debts were forgiven after WWI and WWII, but especially how since 1947 their security has been paid for not only by their army and weapons but by US tax dollars,soldiers, weapons and nukes. When the Berlin Wall fell it was Germans swinging the hammers, but others had paid so many of their Cold War bills. It is easier to balance your budget when America is paying so many of your expenses.
27
Not the same . German debts were imposed on them . Greece asked to borrow money and voluntarily agreed to pay it back. then they got the money and wasted it on non productive projects. Let them leave the EU. They are still getting a good deal because they won't have to pay back the loans
Well where shall I begin. The last debts of WWI had been repaid in 2010. Germany got in 1953 a haircut of 50% and the interests were written of. Most of the debts had been the legacy of the empire, wich had a 40% bigger territory. You may also consider that germany got it's full sovereignty in 1990 with 4+2 treaty.
France and Germany are playing good cop bad cop on the Greek gov. All they want is their money back. Remember the Olympics? Who loaned billions to them?
4
I've said it before and I repeat myself: to talk about all the countries beside Germany as vassals of Germany is plain disrespectful and a lazy attempt of commentators to strenghten the own agenda. It would prove much more difficult to argue against nations like Finland or Estonia, who play hard on Greece too, harder than Germany. Thats an argumentation nobody seems willing to wrestle with, much harder without a Nazi comparison to throw in.
Tsipras needed the opposition on the last vote. Who would guarantee the reforms after the next boatload of money changed the owner? Nobody! The opposition wont play nice with Tsipras forever.
Tsipras needed the opposition on the last vote. Who would guarantee the reforms after the next boatload of money changed the owner? Nobody! The opposition wont play nice with Tsipras forever.
12
Greece is leaving the Euro. The German banks that made all the bad loans will have to get their money back from someone else. I think the someone else will be German tax payers. That would mean you wouldn't it?
Yes, except that Germany has the big bucks, not Finland or Estonia.
Maybe the Greeks should just start forging Euro notes to keep the banks solvent.
1
As someone who grew up in Greece with elderly parents waiting to collect 60 euro from an ATM, I would like to give a greek perspective: The pro-europe/ anti-europe debate in Greece is part of our national psyche. In the 15th century, the Europeans offered help against the advancing Turks. A Synod was called in Ferrara and then Florence to consider military/economic help in exchange for union of the Greek Church with the Pope. The greek Emperor accepted the European offer. While he was negotiating, back home, demonstrations and unrest by the anti-unionists prevailed ("better the turkish turban than the latin hood", they said). The pact was annulled in the face of public resistance (maybe amounting to 61.3%?). The rest is history. Our capital was conquered by an asiatic people and our great Cathedral was converted into a mosque and defaced. Greece became Turkey-in-Europe. Some people still think this was the better option. I disagree.
15
You need to have more nuance in your understanding of history. By far the most destructive and rapacious conquest of Constantinople was not by the Turks in 1453 but by your erstwhile Latin allies in 1204. The Byzantines brought this upon themselves as we can see in the account by Anna Komnenos with their cynical attempt at channeling Crusader-Norman aggression toward the Muslim world. The Ottomans proved to be far more enlightened with their pluralist Millet system than their Western Christian counterparts ever were as seen in the Spanish Inquisition. Under Ottoman rule, the Greek Orthodox church gained primacy in many non-Greek lands as well. As someone travelling right now in Greece it is also obvious that much of what you would consider to be contemporary Greek cuisine and music also came from the Ottomans. Finally, ancient Greek civilization via the Minoans and Myceneans grew out of the cradle of human civilization in West Asia and Egypt and not from Northern and Western Europe which were always considered to be a barbaric hinterland until the late medieval period.
One option would be for the heads of the ten highest paid Silicon Valley operations to each kick in 10 billion each to help bail out Greece. When our private firms fall on hard times, they go to the government for a bailout. Now whole country is in that position. Why not firms offer a bailout, or at least help?
11
@Andrew in Chicago.
It's not an option.
It's not your money.
It's not an option.
It's not your money.
Silicon valley firms have never gotten a govt bailout. Only banks and union shops get those. Silicon valley is proudly neither.
I believe Pope Frances hit the nail on the head in his speech yesterday in South America. He said those charged with promoting economic development must ensure it had "a human face" and he blasted "the idolatry of money and the dictatorship of an impersonal economy lacking a truly human purpose."
Putting bread on the table, putting a roof over the heads of one's children, giving them health and an education, these are essential for human dignity," he said.
He urged politicians and business leaders "not to yield to an economic model which is idolatrous, which needs to sacrifice human lives on the altar of money and profit."
Putting bread on the table, putting a roof over the heads of one's children, giving them health and an education, these are essential for human dignity," he said.
He urged politicians and business leaders "not to yield to an economic model which is idolatrous, which needs to sacrifice human lives on the altar of money and profit."
21
He's not going to last long, even though he may be the best thing that has happened to the Catholic church in decades.
The Vatican is immensely wealthy. Perhaps the real estate and art collections should be liquidated to care for the poor.
Maybe the alternative option is for Germexit, because Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and France seem a lot more compatible with each othet than with the Prussians.
If she wants it so badly, Merkel can have her Deutchmark back. (Then we will see how much BMW's and Mercs cost in $ or £ or € when exported.)
The Southerners and Turkey can then etablish a Mediterranean Economic Union and live in harmony. They would not even have to quit the EU to do so...
If she wants it so badly, Merkel can have her Deutchmark back. (Then we will see how much BMW's and Mercs cost in $ or £ or € when exported.)
The Southerners and Turkey can then etablish a Mediterranean Economic Union and live in harmony. They would not even have to quit the EU to do so...
18
What Germany conveniently forgets is the benefit from being part of euro. If it had its own currency , by now it would have lost its status as 2nd largest exporter. As it would be pretty high
13
It is remarkable the amount of anti-German bashing that we are reading in this forum from a supposed educated readership.
Because it isn't Germany that is "humiliating" the Greek nation, but the Greeks themselves who willing chose demagoguery leadership, ignored for years massive tax evasion, and acted as enablers for a social welfare system that was clearly unsustainable.
But, of course it is easy to blindly make heroes out of the so-called "oppressed" when it is not your money at risk, because you either are not an ordinary citizen in the EU who cannot afford to continue footing the bill for continuing bailouts or, like so much of the clueless upper income readership of the New York Times, well able to afford to take a hit in their stocks, mutual and retirement funds holdings due to this continuing economic crisis - am I right?
Because it isn't Germany that is "humiliating" the Greek nation, but the Greeks themselves who willing chose demagoguery leadership, ignored for years massive tax evasion, and acted as enablers for a social welfare system that was clearly unsustainable.
But, of course it is easy to blindly make heroes out of the so-called "oppressed" when it is not your money at risk, because you either are not an ordinary citizen in the EU who cannot afford to continue footing the bill for continuing bailouts or, like so much of the clueless upper income readership of the New York Times, well able to afford to take a hit in their stocks, mutual and retirement funds holdings due to this continuing economic crisis - am I right?
34
It is our money in the US providing for the defense of Germany, and of the EU for that matter, which allows Germany to be so prosperous. Oh, but wait, we have known twice in the 20th century what happens when Germany provides its own defense. This time it is German cold hearted financial control causing casualities. A New England patriot should understand the Greek mentality and the German excess.
You are overlooking a couple of important facts. First, the bailout money is not going to improve Greece's economy or to its people - it is going directly to the bankers who have not been penalized for THEIR bad decisions. So, in fact, EU taxpayers are actually giving their money to banks. This is why Greece's economy is in even worse shape after 5 years of this ridiculous austerity program. Why is this so hard for people to get through their heads?
Second, the banks and the European Commission are the very same entities that have enabled wealthy Greeks to move their money into offshore accounts that are beyond taxes. So who is really responsible for the Greek failure to collect taxes?
Third, the Troika was more than happy to deal with the Greek government officials who helped create this mess but they reserve their scorn and hardball tactics for the recently elected leftist government, which also didn't create this mess. The Troika wants to make an example of Greece to let other EU countries know that they must toe the line of the financial institutions, democracy be damned. Is this a world people really want to live in?
Second, the banks and the European Commission are the very same entities that have enabled wealthy Greeks to move their money into offshore accounts that are beyond taxes. So who is really responsible for the Greek failure to collect taxes?
Third, the Troika was more than happy to deal with the Greek government officials who helped create this mess but they reserve their scorn and hardball tactics for the recently elected leftist government, which also didn't create this mess. The Troika wants to make an example of Greece to let other EU countries know that they must toe the line of the financial institutions, democracy be damned. Is this a world people really want to live in?
Germany earned its scorn on this one. Greece has been savaged by the media, especially Germany's, for too long.
The European Central Bank can afford to pump money into the E.U at €80billion a month just to prop up bonds,so it can certainly afford to help a member state on its knees. Central banks use decimal points and hit "send"
There is no loss to anyone when money is printed in a non inflationary environment. In fact, for Europe it's a win.
The European Central Bank can afford to pump money into the E.U at €80billion a month just to prop up bonds,so it can certainly afford to help a member state on its knees. Central banks use decimal points and hit "send"
There is no loss to anyone when money is printed in a non inflationary environment. In fact, for Europe it's a win.
Just as you as an individual should not spend more than you take in, neither should countries. Greece, through its corrupt, tax dodging socialist society, put itself in this position and now has to face the music. And the name of the tune is PAIN.
10
i somehow know you ain't giving up your Medicare and SSI bennies, to say nothing of your taxpayer-paid-for advantages.
I've been checking this site all day to see if there has been resolution. Apparently not. It's 4AM over there now. The headline should at least change from "working into the night" to "working until next morning."
If Germany, Finland and other righteous states want to hold Greece's feet to the fire, they may find there are others right in back, on the same line. What will they do then, when Italy, then France need debt relief? It's all well and good to get rid of the little island state, but the others will mean that at some point, Merkel may find herself alone in a crowd of formerly great European states.
If Germany, Finland and other righteous states want to hold Greece's feet to the fire, they may find there are others right in back, on the same line. What will they do then, when Italy, then France need debt relief? It's all well and good to get rid of the little island state, but the others will mean that at some point, Merkel may find herself alone in a crowd of formerly great European states.
9
Merkel is far from alone -- in fact, about half of the Euro-zone countries represent a line as hard or even harder than Germany.
It is becoming clearer by the day the European Union is ruled by a toxic combination of bureaucrats and central bankers - arguably representatives of the pettiest mindset among the elites anywhere. No common vision besides a flabby status quo waiting to be dismantled by another toxic combination: right wing and left wing extremists. According to today's Independent newspaper (UK), the Greeks are considering suing Goldman Sachs for helping them cook their books, apparently with the tacit approval of the ECB... and its head Mario Draghi, who happened to be GS top executive in Europe around that time. I hate conspiracy theories, but the whole thing ain't pretty and I am not sure that the Eurozone will survive this crisis, once the dirty laundry inevitably starts to fly.
36
I wish H. L. Mencken were still alive. He’d be slapping his knees and puffing on that stogie something fierce just to hear our world leaders prove why ... “Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage.” Some other Menckenalia:
* For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
* If a politician found he had cannibals among his constituents, he would promise them missionaries for dinner.
* The older I grow the more I distrust the familiar doctrine that age brings wisdom.
* It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man.
* Don't overestimate the decency of the human race.
* Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.
* For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
* If a politician found he had cannibals among his constituents, he would promise them missionaries for dinner.
* The older I grow the more I distrust the familiar doctrine that age brings wisdom.
* It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man.
* Don't overestimate the decency of the human race.
* Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.
4
As this unfolds, it keeps becoming crystal clear, Greece's creditors think the fiasco of what happened to the euro after 2008, and the fact Greece as well as other lesser economies of the EU got caught without a chair when the music stopped, entitles them to dictate policy to Greece.
Democracies everywhere should take note of how this plays out. What we might be witnessing is the endgame of a long process, where banks have priority over sovereign nations. Greece is simply the latest, and key, case.
But banks have no claim on a democracy. Even the most egregious of past sins can not and should not bind the current citizens of a democracy to penury and what amounts to an indentured economy.
A democracy is not a subject, and that is the risk you take, Mr. Banker. Perhaps try doing business with non-democracies, if that displeases you.
Democracies everywhere should take note of how this plays out. What we might be witnessing is the endgame of a long process, where banks have priority over sovereign nations. Greece is simply the latest, and key, case.
But banks have no claim on a democracy. Even the most egregious of past sins can not and should not bind the current citizens of a democracy to penury and what amounts to an indentured economy.
A democracy is not a subject, and that is the risk you take, Mr. Banker. Perhaps try doing business with non-democracies, if that displeases you.
38
Greek can make the democratic decision to leave the Euro -- no body is preventing them.
The banks were created from a political and social union in which states voluntarily agreed to combine.
Just like the Federal Reseve of the US the banks evolved in line with the member states
Our federal US banks have policies like student loans cannot be forgiven in bankruptcy. The Union of states exerts financial penalties for breaking the rules.
The European Central Bank is saying that after two rounds of previous leniency this time they want the Greeks to live on less, as have many other European nations
To characterize this as a melodrama with banker villains and Greeks tied to the railroad tracks is simply not in line with the facts.
Just like the Federal Reseve of the US the banks evolved in line with the member states
Our federal US banks have policies like student loans cannot be forgiven in bankruptcy. The Union of states exerts financial penalties for breaking the rules.
The European Central Bank is saying that after two rounds of previous leniency this time they want the Greeks to live on less, as have many other European nations
To characterize this as a melodrama with banker villains and Greeks tied to the railroad tracks is simply not in line with the facts.
It's not Mr Banker, it is us German workers and young families and old retired people, it is our tax money and soon it will be our savings too. The German government and German media have been explaining the Greek predicament and supporting Greece for years, but it all boils down to the same thing: pay, Germany, pay. This story cannot possibly have a happy ending.
The Greek collapse, there is no better word, now plays out as tragedy. Tragedy occurs when man attempts to thwart the gods (the bankers) or succumbs to his own tragic flaw. For this the Greeks had a phrase or two to help explain the situation. "Those whom the gods would destroy they first drive mad." Witness Tsirpas' agreement to further austerity in spite of the voters' wishes. The other phrase that comes to mind is "hubris" overweening pride. Lastly, we have nemesis, defined as "the inescapable agent of someone's downfall, especially when deserved." For this last the Greeks have only to look in the mirror.
6
The German proposal does not give any money to Greece. It gives money to itself. It rolls over debt to prevent default. That's all.
Greece is asked to deposit 50 billion to assure future payment, in return for the creditors paying themselves with this rollover of debt.
The alternative for the creditors is that they don't get paid. Greece can't pay, and everyone admits that.
What does Greece get out of this, for its 50 billion and humiliation and loss of sovereignty? No money. That all goes to creditors. All Greece gets is to stay in the Euro.
Is staying in the Euro worth all that? When the price was lower, maybe, but Germany and friends have jacked the price up very high indeed, for the privilege of having the creditors pay themselves, mark down profit, and just keep on keeping on.
The Germans promise that after all this, they will talk about a haircut. They don't promise to do it. After they get paid by the rollover and guaranteed by the 50 billion, they don't need to take a haircut. Greece will do the suffering.
Greece gets little out of this, nothing like enough to justify acceptance. The creditors are threatening to cut off their own noses if Greece doesn't accept this. Let them cut.
Greece is asked to deposit 50 billion to assure future payment, in return for the creditors paying themselves with this rollover of debt.
The alternative for the creditors is that they don't get paid. Greece can't pay, and everyone admits that.
What does Greece get out of this, for its 50 billion and humiliation and loss of sovereignty? No money. That all goes to creditors. All Greece gets is to stay in the Euro.
Is staying in the Euro worth all that? When the price was lower, maybe, but Germany and friends have jacked the price up very high indeed, for the privilege of having the creditors pay themselves, mark down profit, and just keep on keeping on.
The Germans promise that after all this, they will talk about a haircut. They don't promise to do it. After they get paid by the rollover and guaranteed by the 50 billion, they don't need to take a haircut. Greece will do the suffering.
Greece gets little out of this, nothing like enough to justify acceptance. The creditors are threatening to cut off their own noses if Greece doesn't accept this. Let them cut.
52
Mr Thomason ... Run the numbers. Even with 100% debt forgiveness, i.e. zero debt service, Greece is still unable to finance it's budget. Given the hopeless bungling and mismanagement of the Greek government what creditor, private or public, will rush to fill the gap with another wave of deadbeat loans?
Excellent analysis, Mark. Very little is heard about the extent to which money going to Greece ends up mostly paying back funds the ECT, France, and Germany spent by socializing the private debts of banksters. By making Eurozone taxpayers responsible for The Greek debt the banksters sowed the seeds for the current resistance of ordinary Eurozone citizens against a further "Greek" bailout. Few understand that Eurozone citizens' current liability is actually the result of the bankster bailout in 2012 by ECT and their own governments.
1
None of the Eurozone countries are in a strong economic position and it makes no sense for them to continue throwing money at Greece that could be better used elsewhere. In particular those in Eastern Europe. With the austerity measures in place and no ability to devalue, why would anyone expect Greece not to come back in two or three years for additional funding? I think the Eurozone would be better off funding a transition/humanitarian package to fund banks, import-focused businesses and benefits for lower-income Greeks while Greece moves off the Euro.
10
Nobody every threw money at Greece. They threw money in the most self-serving way at the german banks that had made bad loans to Greece to ensure that they wouldn't fail as a result of their incompetence.
I believe the population of the country of Greece is slightly more than that of New York City (Greece about 10 mil., NYC about 8-9 million). Does anybody know or has anybody calculated how the amount needed to currently bail out Greece (estimated in this article at 83 billion euros (or roughly 90-92 billion dollars) compares to the amount that was needed to bail out NYC in the 70s (adjusted for inflation)?
3
years ago i worked for a bank which specialized in lending to companies with less than stellar credit ratings. the secret to its success was the thoroughness with which it analyzed risk and its ethos of establishing a high level of trust on both sides of the transaction. eight and nine figure loans would be done on a handshake... lawyers were not called in until after the deal was done. as a spectator on the greek fiasco, i sympathize utterly with germany: after all the duplicity, how can anyone do a deal with greece now?
15
Also Slovakia, Finland, and the 3 Baltic states
Just for the record I submit the reality-based view of things:
Eurozone position (not just Germany, 15+ of the 18 in agreement) not designed to exact vengeance or worship "god of austerity&rules-for-rules-sake". Items on EU list had been agreed to by Greece for the last 5 years already, all are designed to transform Greek society and economy into a self-sustaining one.
Tsipras'/Greeks' "acceptance" of terms from 2 wks ago: those terms were for short-term extension of 2nd bailout -- but negotiation now is for a 3rd bailout, 5x as long and 10x as expensive at least.
Reasons for distrust in Greece government and need for firm guarantees completely obvious. 5 years of non-reforms, 6 months of lies and double-speak, Tsipras government unstable.
50B collateral in trust fund only option to keep going forward.
Eurozone completely backed up by democratic consensus in home countries (unlike Greek government that "accepted" offer after rejection by large majority in referendum -- and has no stable majority in its own parliament any longer!!).
Stability and future of EU actually of paramount concern to Germany and rest of Eurozone and precisely the reason why additional dozens of billions can only be sent to Greece if structural reforms there finally ensure that this time is the last time.
Otherwise rest of European population will no longer tolerate sending vast sums into sinkhole and will turn against EU -- many countries have radical anti-EU parties waiting in the wings.
Eurozone position (not just Germany, 15+ of the 18 in agreement) not designed to exact vengeance or worship "god of austerity&rules-for-rules-sake". Items on EU list had been agreed to by Greece for the last 5 years already, all are designed to transform Greek society and economy into a self-sustaining one.
Tsipras'/Greeks' "acceptance" of terms from 2 wks ago: those terms were for short-term extension of 2nd bailout -- but negotiation now is for a 3rd bailout, 5x as long and 10x as expensive at least.
Reasons for distrust in Greece government and need for firm guarantees completely obvious. 5 years of non-reforms, 6 months of lies and double-speak, Tsipras government unstable.
50B collateral in trust fund only option to keep going forward.
Eurozone completely backed up by democratic consensus in home countries (unlike Greek government that "accepted" offer after rejection by large majority in referendum -- and has no stable majority in its own parliament any longer!!).
Stability and future of EU actually of paramount concern to Germany and rest of Eurozone and precisely the reason why additional dozens of billions can only be sent to Greece if structural reforms there finally ensure that this time is the last time.
Otherwise rest of European population will no longer tolerate sending vast sums into sinkhole and will turn against EU -- many countries have radical anti-EU parties waiting in the wings.
12
As I write, it's 3:30 AM in Brussels. Perseverance, desperation, fear keeps this meeting going. I find the conspiracy theories absurd, appealing to those who need a victim-abuser scenario. The scenario is more complex than that, involving economic and political concerns in all the Euro nations, where there are already very mixed opinions and several of which will have to ratify any agreement, if any, that emerges. And how will Greece respond? Although the process seems slow motion, it may end up going too fast. Greece is asked to prove trustworthiness over a few days in the proposals made public so far. Speed-dialing for trust usually backfires.
3
In one sentence, Greece needs to realize their are consequences to not meeting its obligations, it must commit to responsible and prudential governance. Not much mention of words like obligations, commitment, responsibility and consequences in any language from Greece and/or any of the posters to this news story.
6
Germany is taking our ally Greece apart in economic war. Greece needs our help. This is fascism. Corporate profits over social need, millions can go hungry but we won't press a button on a computer screen unless you give us your ports, electricity, mines, future FIRSTBORN.
Germany has been undermining Greece for years. No investments came in from Germany, not a DIME. Instead Greece was saddled with corrupt military deals and forced to buy German equipment. Greece was bullied, while German press created ethnic stereotypes of Greek people as dishonest and lazy. Nothing could be further from the truth. Don't believe German lies.
We see what Germany is capable of doing to the world. We know what Greece gave the world.
STAND WITH GREECE.
Germany has been undermining Greece for years. No investments came in from Germany, not a DIME. Instead Greece was saddled with corrupt military deals and forced to buy German equipment. Greece was bullied, while German press created ethnic stereotypes of Greek people as dishonest and lazy. Nothing could be further from the truth. Don't believe German lies.
We see what Germany is capable of doing to the world. We know what Greece gave the world.
STAND WITH GREECE.
29
So, this is what you are saying.
It was a German overlord that told the Greeks not to collect taxes that were desperately needed to fund the Greek government.
It was a German overlord that told the Greeks to tie so much of its workforce to a government paycheck?
It was a German overload that told the Greeks to let their workers retire at 50?
It was a German overlord that told the Greeks to lie about their financial health to the bankers and the EU to get several bailouts?
It was a German overlord who told the Greek people how to vote in their elections and recent referendum?
You see how inaccurate and ridiculous the above statements are?
Because, the last time most of us noticed there wasn't anything remotely like a German puppet-master ruling over the lives of "hapless" nations.
It was a German overlord that told the Greeks not to collect taxes that were desperately needed to fund the Greek government.
It was a German overlord that told the Greeks to tie so much of its workforce to a government paycheck?
It was a German overload that told the Greeks to let their workers retire at 50?
It was a German overlord that told the Greeks to lie about their financial health to the bankers and the EU to get several bailouts?
It was a German overlord who told the Greek people how to vote in their elections and recent referendum?
You see how inaccurate and ridiculous the above statements are?
Because, the last time most of us noticed there wasn't anything remotely like a German puppet-master ruling over the lives of "hapless" nations.
Pretty sickening and untrue observation of what is happening.Why don't you stand with Greece and spend some money instead of accusing Germans who already spend more than 1,000 Euros per head on the Greek bailout.
It appears that the Greek tragedy is about to become the European tragedy. The principle of a united Europe appears to have dies today and tonight in Brussels where the E.U. is split into factions more concerned about money, harsh punishment for those who dare cross the line, and national politics than unity and prosperity for all. And once again, the villain, as they seem to be so often in European disasters is Germany--the one nation that should know more about this than any, but clearly has not learned. Greece may have given the West the Promethean fire of democracy, but we still seem not to have learned how to use it for the betterment of all without first burning our neighbor's house down.
9
Mr. Tsipras can walk away from any deal at any moment. It's telling that he doesn't have the fortitude to do it. I wonder why?
5
He seems to have miscalculated badly--and at a couple of moments now. Lack of experience? Grexit is the only answer.
Fortitude? He is in that room battling Germany and her minions for survival.
He will not walk away and be stabbed in the back. He will make Germany push the knife in before the international press.
He will not walk away and be stabbed in the back. He will make Germany push the knife in before the international press.
2
A. Simon has a point but I wouldn't out it that way. Greece, for all its faults, gave us democracy and so much culture that, as the philosopher Alisdair Macintyre observed, taught Occudental civilization to reflect on what one owes another human being, not based on the community he belongs to or his social station, but because he is a human being. The Greek tragedies raised questions never previously explored, and still shaping our institutions directly and indirectly, in most of which ways we are scarcely consciously aware. We owe an immeasurable debt of gratitude and honor to that nation, however apparently (it's genuinely arguable) profligate recent policies and leaders. Contrast this contribution with some recent German contributions to politics, and it makes you think perhaps taking the big picture, Germany may feel Greece has some points in its favor to be honored. Yes Germany has come a long way since embroiling Europe in genocidal expansionist wars resulting in perhaps a hundred million deaths, but that is part of its legacy it needs to factor in, just as it might consider Greece's legacy of Socrates and Aristotle, Solon, Demosthenes, Cleisthenes, who taught us to transcend narrow interests and envision a later welfare, creating the seeds of democracy. That tradition should be honored in a deal struck with Athens.
Greece is very strange it does not look like it has made an effort to generate money. If they could generate funds, there is no need for austerity or debts. The govt just hums along like any other govt. Still numerous areas that can generate taxes in Greece. Numerous citizens, visitors & businesses can purchase goods & services on a daily basis. If you are a sovereign nation better get your € as soon as you can by generating it from people & businesses before someone else claims it as theirs. When you generate € you can update your admin systems, invest low-med risk / high yield inside & outside of Greece simultaneously, utilizing as many volunteer Greeks on the globe. Greece could make some millions in a day & some hundreds of millions in a month. If they do not generate their own financial revenue, then they look like they are just reliant on the bailout. The additional ESM is extra funding. They need to generate their main funds, part that goes to the bailout, part that pays expenses & part that can be held in reserve. Perhaps Greece needs more internal security. They should just stick to the €53.5B request that comes with €13B austerity. They could provide €7b in state assets in escrow & €6b in austerity. IMF could give some technical assistance, but provide the overdue tranche €7.2B first. Greece is their own sovereign nation. In the end Ancient Civilizations have already gone through every drama when everyone just wants to live just a bit in the time there is on Earth.
2
I'm sure the pain of austerity imposed upon Europe by German banks is a worthy trade for these awesome growth rates ( http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/gdp-growth ). I appreciate the language of the French president on the issue, but maybe Europe deserves to fail?
3
I think there must be quite a few Greek opposition politicians quietly laughing at all this. After all, they were the ones who did nothing about reform for years and who colluded with the banks to lie to the Eurozone beaurocrats to gain admission to the currency. Now they can sit back and watch Tsipras and Syriza being castigated for not solving the problem they created.
The present Greek government may not be very good negotiators/managers but it is surely not all their fault!
The present Greek government may not be very good negotiators/managers but it is surely not all their fault!
16
The issue is no longer Greece, or even Europe. The issue now is Germany -- which allowed its politicians to damage its brand and must now scramble to rehabilitate it.
2
I am trying to figure out how to buy products from Greece and stop buying from Germany. Certainly no now to a German car. They're nice, but I don't want to support this attitude. The Germans need to learn how to be graceful in victory. If we had treated them in the 1950's (when the past sin was much more than overspending) as they now treat the Greeks, the tables would have been turned, but to what long term benefit?
20
Agree... I was seriously looking at BMW's... Not any more. Nor Mercedes, nor Audi either.
But I'll certainly prefer a car with Corinthian Leather! ☺☺☺
But I'll certainly prefer a car with Corinthian Leather! ☺☺☺
May I recommend a French car.
2
Greece has very few exports. Possibly you can buy some ouzo or olive oil. That's part of the problem, actually. Since you are such a supporter, I suggest you put all your money in a deposit account at a Greek bank, and invest heavily in its stock.
What price Peace?
1
Can we stop wringing our hands in outrage and dismay at Germany's abusive methods and begin a boycott of German goods and financial investments? It is the only thing that Capital will listen to and it is a small matter but is something more than an outraged comment to the web. Boycott Germany Today!
14
Germany has just publicly displayed it does not want Greece to pay its debts in full. There are numerous straightforward ways to do it. Save money and make money. Govts are actually not good at the second part. They are just municipal administrative offices. Entrepreneurs, business groups, private businesses are good at making money. In fact, during the so-called global financial crisis years ago, reducing redundancies & sharing hours among company workers, generating wholesale product concepts w/numerous business deals w/Asian (and other) manufacturers & then selling products on the retail market, & institutional investing & creating addl financial assets for stability support were all garnered by Chancellor Merkel. I am confused why Germany is free to make money & do not want others to do the same.
1
Woods I have a typo. The last line should be "I am confused why Germany is free to make money & does not want others to do the same."
An excellent analysis of what is actually transpiring: http://www.wsj.com/articles/greek-debt-crisis-europe-pushes-athens-to-br...
1
The conditions put forward by Germany are even harsher and more humiliating than conditions imposed by the Allies after WWII on Germany. France and Italy must be regretting for supporting Germany for harsh measures few weeks ago and now realizing that it has gone too far but cannot stop the destructive momentum they have helped to set in motion.
9
German citizens....wake up, your leaders are destroying Europe....
8
On article: Leaders Work Past Deadline on Greece - Just proves the old saying still rings true. "There is never enough time to do it right; but there is always enough time to do it over".
1
Greece has existed for about 2500 years. The EU is destroying it in 1 weekend. What an ego trip that must be.
4
I would give credit for that result to Mr. Tsipras and his colleagues. Whether or not you agree with his ideology (and I don't) it is hard to avoid the conclusion that the manner in which he has conducted the negotiation with the EU was a disaster for Greece.
"They’ve got the usual Socialist disease — they’ve run out of other people’s money."
- Margaret Thatcher
- Margaret Thatcher
8
One of the criticisms of the EU currency union is that it wouldn't work without a political union. Be careful what you wish for -- the Greeks are seeing the political union being shoved down their throats. Their incompetent government (the acronym Syriza stands for "Coalition of the Radical Left") has backed them into a corner where they essentially have no choice but to concede. Syriza set Greece up for The Humiliation, with the referendum being the crowning achievement.
6
We are witnessing major leadership blunders of German leadership in Europe. First, Germany contributed to the breakup of Yugoslavia by being among the first to recognize the breakaway states of Slovenia and Croatia. We know how that move ended in a war and the slaughter of more than two hundred thousand people. Then we saw how Germany and its allies in the EU turned the Ukraine away from Europe by refusing economic assistance. We have no idea how that blunder will conclude. Yet, we know that the cost to the Ukrainian people and to global security is incalculable already. Now another blunder seems to be in the offing. Time and again, Germany shows lack of vision, and lack of robust political thinking essential for Germany to play a leading role in Europe. The leaders of other European nations, such as France, Italy, and Britain bear an equal measure of responsibility for relinquishing their traditional leadership roles in Europe.
6
This is not about helping the Greeks, its about helping the lenders.
The whole point of interest is the transfer of risk. The lenders already got paid for taking on the risk that they would not get paid. They lost that bet. Time for a major haircut...
Greece, the country, is still there, the islands are still beautiful, the people are nice. So they just default. Say "Sorry, no debt payments this month. We'll see about next month. And we're still operating on euros. German tourists, bring cash if you want to go to the beach..."
Let the lenders take a nice hot bath.
As an aside, the Turkish government is missing a great opportunity by not buying some of that debt. Watch for China or Russia to swoop in shortly. Then Ms. Merkel may change her tune...
Hold on tight Mr. Tzipras, and good luck!
The whole point of interest is the transfer of risk. The lenders already got paid for taking on the risk that they would not get paid. They lost that bet. Time for a major haircut...
Greece, the country, is still there, the islands are still beautiful, the people are nice. So they just default. Say "Sorry, no debt payments this month. We'll see about next month. And we're still operating on euros. German tourists, bring cash if you want to go to the beach..."
Let the lenders take a nice hot bath.
As an aside, the Turkish government is missing a great opportunity by not buying some of that debt. Watch for China or Russia to swoop in shortly. Then Ms. Merkel may change her tune...
Hold on tight Mr. Tzipras, and good luck!
8
Greece is just one little country like so many others which has been swept up in the the The Global Financial Gambling Casino. We wonder why anyone would lend money to people who cannot ever pay it back. Then we see the hedge fund managers making a killing on the failure to pay back. We see the incomprehensible short sellers who "borrow" shares they see failing and pocket the margin when it does fail. We see all the other algorithms and instruments used by the Casino to pull wealth out of the global economy without having to produce one single thing.
Remember Iceland and the hue and cry that went up when they flipped the Casino the bird and took the consequences. They too were warned of dire and catastrophic consequences. What happened there? Nothing. The people rallied behind their government, took their lumps, and made it work.
Iceland will be the model sometime in the future when the market economy collapses as it must. Where is the real economy of Greece. Of any country? Can a nation which fishes, grows olives, makes feta, and welcomes hosts of tourist to its shores afford pensions for everyone over 50 and exempt the majority from paying taxes? Probably not. How did they live before they got all this "free money"? The difference between what you need and what you want is huge. They could easily afford the first and can't possible sustain the second. Just like the rest of the world, except we haven't quite accepted that reality yet. We will. We will have to.
Remember Iceland and the hue and cry that went up when they flipped the Casino the bird and took the consequences. They too were warned of dire and catastrophic consequences. What happened there? Nothing. The people rallied behind their government, took their lumps, and made it work.
Iceland will be the model sometime in the future when the market economy collapses as it must. Where is the real economy of Greece. Of any country? Can a nation which fishes, grows olives, makes feta, and welcomes hosts of tourist to its shores afford pensions for everyone over 50 and exempt the majority from paying taxes? Probably not. How did they live before they got all this "free money"? The difference between what you need and what you want is huge. They could easily afford the first and can't possible sustain the second. Just like the rest of the world, except we haven't quite accepted that reality yet. We will. We will have to.
9
There are a lot of little Nero's fiddling here while Rome (or rather Greece) burns. None of the main players (apart from Hollande, who IMHO comes out of this with a lot of credit) seem capable of appreciating the perspective of the opposite side. None of the main players have shown much consistency.
Apparently at one point before the referendum was called, Greece and its creditors were within €60m of sealing a deal. The fact that they couldn't get over that last €60m suggests that neither party really want a deal at all. That's confirmed by the way that Germany and its allies moved the goalposts once the Greek govt. finally capitulated. Of course the Greek concessions were only born of desperation after a week or 2 of shuttered banks. Hardly evidence of a genuine change of heart.
If I were Greek, I'd be inclined now to just default on the euro-debt and go back to the drachma, but that's what the Greek government is desperately trying to avoid. Meanwhile, as a European I'm inclined (with Hollande) to try everything to keep Greece within the euro, but it seems that many Euro governments are trying to engineer the exact opposite.
Everyone agrees that Greece is bankrupt, but nobody seems willing to face up to the logical consequences, namely, radical system overhaul for Greece and haircuts for the creditors. What is "unsustainable" will sooner or later not be sustained, but the change could be better managed, and doesn't have to be this ugly.
Apparently at one point before the referendum was called, Greece and its creditors were within €60m of sealing a deal. The fact that they couldn't get over that last €60m suggests that neither party really want a deal at all. That's confirmed by the way that Germany and its allies moved the goalposts once the Greek govt. finally capitulated. Of course the Greek concessions were only born of desperation after a week or 2 of shuttered banks. Hardly evidence of a genuine change of heart.
If I were Greek, I'd be inclined now to just default on the euro-debt and go back to the drachma, but that's what the Greek government is desperately trying to avoid. Meanwhile, as a European I'm inclined (with Hollande) to try everything to keep Greece within the euro, but it seems that many Euro governments are trying to engineer the exact opposite.
Everyone agrees that Greece is bankrupt, but nobody seems willing to face up to the logical consequences, namely, radical system overhaul for Greece and haircuts for the creditors. What is "unsustainable" will sooner or later not be sustained, but the change could be better managed, and doesn't have to be this ugly.
27
This punishment of Greece by the Eurozone leadership is beyond tolerable, but where is the a stopping of the punishment?
14
Thomas Piketty in his recent interview with Die Zeit had this to say, "When I hear the Germans say that they maintain a very moral stance about debt and strongly believe that debts must be repaid, then I think: what a huge joke! Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts. It has no standing to lecture other nations."
He also said, "We cannot demand that new generations must pay for decades for the mistakes of their parents. The Greeks have, without a doubt, made big mistakes. Until 2009, the government in Athens forged its books. But despite this, the younger generation of Greeks carries no more responsibility for the mistakes of its elders than the younger generation of Germans did in the 1950s and 1960s. We need to look ahead. Europe was founded on debt forgiveness and investment in the future. Not on the idea of endless penance. We need to remember this."
Angela Merkel, Wolfgang Schäuble, the incensed German taxpayers, do you copy?
He also said, "We cannot demand that new generations must pay for decades for the mistakes of their parents. The Greeks have, without a doubt, made big mistakes. Until 2009, the government in Athens forged its books. But despite this, the younger generation of Greeks carries no more responsibility for the mistakes of its elders than the younger generation of Germans did in the 1950s and 1960s. We need to look ahead. Europe was founded on debt forgiveness and investment in the future. Not on the idea of endless penance. We need to remember this."
Angela Merkel, Wolfgang Schäuble, the incensed German taxpayers, do you copy?
95
So being a deadbeat is the path to prosperity.
2
It certainly worked for Germany in 1924, 1929, 1932 and 1953) when the western allies had restructured German debt.
1
That is false. Germany has paid its debts. Many of them were revived by German Unification; those debts were paid off in full, with the required interest, by 2010.
And for the Greeks and particularly for Tsipras:
Nothing in the world is softer or weaker than water.
Yet nothing is better at overcoming the hard and strong.
This is because nothing can replace it.
That the weak overcomes the strong
And the soft overcomes the hard.
Everybody in the world knows
But cannot put into practice
Therefore sages say:
The one who accepts the humiliation of the state
Is called its master.
The one who accepts the misfortune of the state
Becomes king of the world.
The truth seems like the opposite.
Nothing in the world is softer or weaker than water.
Yet nothing is better at overcoming the hard and strong.
This is because nothing can replace it.
That the weak overcomes the strong
And the soft overcomes the hard.
Everybody in the world knows
But cannot put into practice
Therefore sages say:
The one who accepts the humiliation of the state
Is called its master.
The one who accepts the misfortune of the state
Becomes king of the world.
The truth seems like the opposite.
3
Greece should remain in the EU (with access to large market and labor movement), but not use the euro as its currency, like England. Why not?
8
I am at a loss about your comment.
How does adding another dysfunctional member that chooses not to have any real stake in the health and vibrancy of the EU help the other full-fledged member states?
Please explain.
How does adding another dysfunctional member that chooses not to have any real stake in the health and vibrancy of the EU help the other full-fledged member states?
Please explain.
Tonight, as Greece goes through another trial, I found some quotes from Tao Te Ching that seem most appropriate.
So, for the Germans:
Those who wish to take the world and control it
I see that they cannot succeed.
The world is a sacred instrument.
One cannot control it.
The one who controls it will fail.
The one who grasps it will lose.
Because all things:
Either lead or follow
Either blow hot or cold
Either have strength or weakness
Either have ownership or take by force
Therefore the sage:
Eliminates extremes
Eliminates excess
Eliminates arrogance
And for the Greeks and particularly for Tsipras:
So, for the Germans:
Those who wish to take the world and control it
I see that they cannot succeed.
The world is a sacred instrument.
One cannot control it.
The one who controls it will fail.
The one who grasps it will lose.
Because all things:
Either lead or follow
Either blow hot or cold
Either have strength or weakness
Either have ownership or take by force
Therefore the sage:
Eliminates extremes
Eliminates excess
Eliminates arrogance
And for the Greeks and particularly for Tsipras:
4
There is always a hope and when there is a hope, there is a way, so there is a way for everything, be open minded please
1
A whiplash of events. In Summary, this will be bailout #3 in 5 years for €83 to €94 billion contingent upon Greece adoption of even more austerity in the next three days (after a No vote referendum just 2 weeks ago). Oh, and 90% of Germans are against the bailout. So Greeks get to decide (again) their economic suicide, immediate default/bank failures or the slow strangulation of austerity. Maybe the Greeks can borrow some money from the Persians as they will be getting 150 billion once the sanctions are lifted.
4
Perhaps it's time for an amorphous body that legislates that bananas cannot have "abnormal curvature" to take a step back, look at what they've become (the fudge and can kick being the two most popular policy strategies), determine what they actually to be (without the crisis panicked rhetoric of a lefty like Hollande) and decide that more union for the sake of more union is a stupid and perverse ideology full of constant, debilitating unintended consequences causing such acrimony that the union feels like a prison with everyone else except you being the jailer.
5
Little surprises me anyone in the realm of politics but I must confess to being a little surprised by the most UNDIPLOMATIC language being used by the LEADERS of Europe. Greece has absolutely handled these negotiations miserably, first by calling a referendum and then reneging on it themselves in the hope of getting another huge loan. Germany, for it's part, seems to have genuinely abandoned any appearance of "unity at any cost" by using belligerent language which is RARE especially from the Germans who are still wary of reigniting old ghosts. I read this article and could fully FEEL the disdain between Merkel and Tsipras. All pretexts are gone. Regardless of the final outcome, the ILLUSION of European "unity" is already a memory (or did it EVER really exist, I wonder).
13
Everyone, most importantly Germany and Merkel, need to remember Germany's "old ghosts."
1
To the contrary, rarely has Europe been so united. At least 15 of the 18 Eurozone countries are completely in agreement with Germany.
Italy is kind of wobbly, probably to please its own left-wingers, only France is playing some cheap game (and Cyprus doesn't want to annoy is bigger cousin Greece too much) -- but no, Europe is very firmly united on this and the whole crisis will end up strengthening the EU by quite a bit. Of course this is hard to know when reading the NY Times reporting from a parallel universe, but there it is.
Italy is kind of wobbly, probably to please its own left-wingers, only France is playing some cheap game (and Cyprus doesn't want to annoy is bigger cousin Greece too much) -- but no, Europe is very firmly united on this and the whole crisis will end up strengthening the EU by quite a bit. Of course this is hard to know when reading the NY Times reporting from a parallel universe, but there it is.
2
Italy's Renzi issued a JOINT STATEMENT with France's Hollande in support of finding a compromise much more favorable to Greece than what Germany proposes. France and Italy are 2 of the top 3 countries in the eurozone and represent over 27% of the total EU GDP and nearly 40% of the eurozone GDP so going by "numbers" is a senseless argument. Sorry but Cyprus and Finland just don't quite pull the same weight as those in the top tier and TWO of the "big three" disagree with Germany. Therefore, on the contrary, that is NOT "unity" at all.
1
What a disaster. The Germans strike again at hurting Europe. I hope Greece realizes that although they have been forced out of the EZ that they still have friends who will help. I also hope that this spectacle has driven home to the other EZ members that Germany needs to be reined in. After WWII it was reined in militarily but now the Europeans need to do something about the way it is abusing its partners economically. Germany must not be allowed to have any control over other countries because its old pathologies seem to resurface.
24
As the sole survivor of a German Jewish family killed off by proud Socialist Germans in 1939 I am more than happy to hope that Greece finally and once and for all destroys Merkel and her German economic overlords trying to take over the EU.
May Germany finally receive her just dues.
May Germany finally receive her just dues.
24
I am sorry for what happened to your family. Those of mine who did not emigrate also died. But what does any of this have to do with Grexit? No member of the German government was an adult during World War II.
31
@Here.
It is the same sort of cruelty that killed innocents back then. The Germans had no qualms about spending trillions on East Germans.
It is the same sort of cruelty that killed innocents back then. The Germans had no qualms about spending trillions on East Germans.
2
Here, you should apply the same to the Greek children who have borrow nothing from Germany, do you get it?
1
Anyone still think globalism is always a good idea?
7
When a country does it to others, it's heinous and irresponsible. When citizens of a country do it to each other, it's democracy. For example, the majority voting a tax increase for the minority, and a tax reduction for themselves. Or that the government, with the tax money collected from tax-paying citizens, subsidizes certain sections of the population for social reasons. It's all a matter of terminology.
3
Is there any pretense at fairness in this article? Four paragraphs are devoted to a long, lingering look at France's sympathetic position. The position presented as Germany (also Finland, Slovakia, etc., etc,) is mentioned but is not explained. Obviously, the people at the times haven't run out of other people's money to demand be spent.
32
This type of biased reporting is far too commonplace for the Times because they cater to cater to a wealthy, liberal readership who can easily weather the economic fallout from a bankrupt Greece and always seem prone to make demons out of lenders, but never irresponsible borrowers.
How can these greek citozens be so maive to think that the EU will just fold in the face of greek petsuasiveness and charm and things will just sort themselves out.
7
Coverage should move beyond quoting and speculating about personalities towards examining the fundamental issues. Is it not outrageous that despite hundreds of billions of euros in assistance given just a few years ago, Greece still needs tens of billions more simply to get through the coming years. Instead of beating up on Germany, you should be asking yourself what went wrong. Why do the Greeks have such voracious borrowing needs?
Look closely and you will see a Greek economy that is simply not self sustaining, They are Europe's consumers par excellence but produce little and export almost nothing. Such an economy must borrow to sustain its level of consumption. Since the Greeks do no produce much, they can never pay back the money they borrow. Thus anyone who 'lends' money to the Greeks must be prepared to write it off at some point in the future. Regardless of whether they use their own currency or remain a part of the eurozone, the structural problems of the Greek economy remain the same.
After five years and massive assistance, the Greeks have made no effort to address the structural issues that plague their economy. Instead of creating incentives to attract investment, they raise taxes to discourage it. When they do seek investment, they invariably seek portfolio inflows to drum up interest in their debt auctions instead of job creating direct investments.
Look at the situation before you cast your stone. Germany has done more for Greece than America ever has.
Look closely and you will see a Greek economy that is simply not self sustaining, They are Europe's consumers par excellence but produce little and export almost nothing. Such an economy must borrow to sustain its level of consumption. Since the Greeks do no produce much, they can never pay back the money they borrow. Thus anyone who 'lends' money to the Greeks must be prepared to write it off at some point in the future. Regardless of whether they use their own currency or remain a part of the eurozone, the structural problems of the Greek economy remain the same.
After five years and massive assistance, the Greeks have made no effort to address the structural issues that plague their economy. Instead of creating incentives to attract investment, they raise taxes to discourage it. When they do seek investment, they invariably seek portfolio inflows to drum up interest in their debt auctions instead of job creating direct investments.
Look at the situation before you cast your stone. Germany has done more for Greece than America ever has.
45
Apparently, the author commends the German plan, which is more austerity. This austerity only makes it harder for Greece to sustain herself. Already, the unemployment rate in Greece is 25 percent. With further austerity, i.e., tax hikes and spending cuts, even more money will be taken out of the Greek economy and the resulting reduction in aggregate demand will only make unemployment get worse. Do you want to drive up the unemployment rate to fifty percent. Read some Paul Krugman
1
The two "bailouts" where made to save German and French banks that should have suffered the losses for the bad loans they made to Greeks to purchase their products so that the German and French workers had jobs...it is a vicious circle..
Read this article which appear in Foreign Affairs
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/greece/2015-07-07/pain-athens?ci...
Read this article which appear in Foreign Affairs
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/greece/2015-07-07/pain-athens?ci...
1
This is simply false. Greece do not still need ten of billions of dollars, It is surprising how a mistake can be repeated again and again, even when it is regularly debunked. Let me try again.
Tsirpas asked for being allowing to run a primary surplus of 1% for the next four years (including 2005). Germany wanted it to increase to 3.5% in 2018.
Tsirpas has now accepted the German position. In any case, a primary surplus means that the net inflow of money go **from Greece to its creditors**.
Let me say it an other way: if Greece has a primary budget surplus, that means that its expenses are less than its income (taxes, etc.). The surplus goes to the creditors.
Now regularly Greece has to pay interests or sometimes capital on its loans. The budget surplus is by far not enough to pay this. Suppose for example that Greece must pay 10 billions to the Eurogroup in 2015 but has just 4 billions of surplus.
Then there are only two (realistic) alternative : either Greece go into default and don't pay anything. Or the creditors take the 4 billion that Greece has for them
and lend 6 more billion to Greece, to be reimbursed say in 5 years (with interests), and retake immediately their 6 billion, so that the creditors have received 10 billion and Greece is not in default. In this case, some headlines may say that the creditors have lent 6 more billion to Greece, which technically is correct, but the truth is that Greece has paid 4 billion in reimbursements.
Tsirpas asked for being allowing to run a primary surplus of 1% for the next four years (including 2005). Germany wanted it to increase to 3.5% in 2018.
Tsirpas has now accepted the German position. In any case, a primary surplus means that the net inflow of money go **from Greece to its creditors**.
Let me say it an other way: if Greece has a primary budget surplus, that means that its expenses are less than its income (taxes, etc.). The surplus goes to the creditors.
Now regularly Greece has to pay interests or sometimes capital on its loans. The budget surplus is by far not enough to pay this. Suppose for example that Greece must pay 10 billions to the Eurogroup in 2015 but has just 4 billions of surplus.
Then there are only two (realistic) alternative : either Greece go into default and don't pay anything. Or the creditors take the 4 billion that Greece has for them
and lend 6 more billion to Greece, to be reimbursed say in 5 years (with interests), and retake immediately their 6 billion, so that the creditors have received 10 billion and Greece is not in default. In this case, some headlines may say that the creditors have lent 6 more billion to Greece, which technically is correct, but the truth is that Greece has paid 4 billion in reimbursements.
Ireland was in a somewhat similar predicament after they had a financial meltdown in 2008. The Irish people laid the blame for that debacle on the then Irish government who were defeated and voted out of power after that debacle. Ireland received a bailout and are still paying for it and will continue to pay for it over future years. It was pathetic seeing the European technocrats visit Ireland on a regular basis to make sure the Irish were adhering to the bailout terms. But they swallowed their pride and put up with it and the quite draconian austerity measures that were introduced. Greece would or should learn something from that. Ireland did very well from their membership in the EU until the Celtic Tiger boom burst its banks, an unintended pun. The creditors are being paid. Greece should comply and own up to their extravagances of the past. Germany appeared to do well by Ireland during the Irish travails.
17
The Irish have every right to be proud.
Nevertheless, the Greeks will never be able to pay.
Chancellor Merkel is caught in a bind.
The German public won't allow her to agree to another write off.
But, she's no fool; she knows that eventually the loans will be written down.
Maybe after she leaves office? Maybe tomorrow if Greece leaves the Euro?
Stay tuned. Don't touch that dial.
Nevertheless, the Greeks will never be able to pay.
Chancellor Merkel is caught in a bind.
The German public won't allow her to agree to another write off.
But, she's no fool; she knows that eventually the loans will be written down.
Maybe after she leaves office? Maybe tomorrow if Greece leaves the Euro?
Stay tuned. Don't touch that dial.
Throughout this whole thing it's been staggering to see the misappropriation of blame in mainstream news coverage and, worse yet, the numerous comments that treat the devastation of Greek economy is some sort of deserved and necessary corrective step.
The real story is the austerity dogma of the troika and, in particular, German obstinacy. Self-righteous, punitive, and blinkered, Merkel, Schaubel and co. are clearly the most irresponsible party present at the talks, clearly driving the Greeks right toward Grexit. If this wasn't clear before tonight's bombshells, it should be now.
The real story is the austerity dogma of the troika and, in particular, German obstinacy. Self-righteous, punitive, and blinkered, Merkel, Schaubel and co. are clearly the most irresponsible party present at the talks, clearly driving the Greeks right toward Grexit. If this wasn't clear before tonight's bombshells, it should be now.
27
What absolute nonsense! There are certain rules to become and remain a member state of the Euro group. Greece has never played by and fulfilled these rules, and therefore, it is unbelievable how hard all the remaining Euro group members try to keep Greece within the Euro. To blame Germany for Greece's dilemma is extremely naïve. Germany and all the other countries (and their taxpayers) are trying to help the Greeks out despite a referendum in which they decided they don't want any help if there are conditions.
31
@CocoMelu
"...it is unbelievable how hard all the remaining Euro group members try to keep Greece within the Euro."
It may have something to do with the fact that Greece is a member of NATO, the world's most important military alliance. NATO needs a functional Greece.
And some of the Euro group members most concerned with keeping Greece in the Euro are also members of NATO.
"...it is unbelievable how hard all the remaining Euro group members try to keep Greece within the Euro."
It may have something to do with the fact that Greece is a member of NATO, the world's most important military alliance. NATO needs a functional Greece.
And some of the Euro group members most concerned with keeping Greece in the Euro are also members of NATO.
What European authorities should really be wringing their hands over is how come they put a goose inside of a bottle 50 years ago and have spent the time since then debating how to get it out alive without breaking the bottle. Unless and until they form a genuine POLITICAL union rather than a merely fiscal one, they are going to continue to wrestle with these sorts of issues until all the Arctic ice has melted.
The EU is a toothless organization which can only make suggestions to its wayward members about how to act in a financially responsible manner. Because it is so weak politically, it forces its most vocal and responsible members, such as Germany to act as its conscience, then take heat for saying what everyone knows is true. Greece has no intention of paying back the money it already owes, and won't repay any new loans either. It is looking for loan forgiveness, or charity, whichever you choose to call it. It is a third-world country in a group of first-world countries, but doesn't want to believe this about itself, or be seen as a perpetual debtor nation. So everybody tiptoes around this nation that suffers from hubris, and attempts to be diplomatic with it.
Nobody wants to feel as though they are being played as a chump. If you loan somebody money, x 3, and they never repay you, you are a chump. There is no winning hand in this situation, except to break the bottle.
24
FYI, that well-tuned German conscience had no trouble with having half of its post-war debt cancelled. Add that to more recent economic sins such as irresponsible lending in search of high yielding bonds and premature expansion of the Eurozone as a way of growing markets for German goods, and it seems that chumps are also those who buy the myth of German-style fiscal rectitude.
12
The problem is that Europe has a monetary union WITHOUT a fiscal union.
@Peki in Copenhagen: yours is the latest in fashionable arguments which compare Germany and Europe from 1953 to present-day Germany and Europe, when there is almost no comparison, other than the notion that loan forgiveness is part of a liberal, feel-good strategy that somehow will make Greece become something other than the dishonest, corrupt, and irresponsible EU member it is. Your other stuff is just economic gobbledegook. So Germany wants to grow its markets? Good for them.
As this situation stands, it is unwinnable, and Europe should spend its time either dissolving the entire union, or else work on creating a smaller ,tighter POLITICAL union, and let the wayward nations leave. It won't be the end of Europe, the European Union, or Greece. It will make more sense than all this endless wheel spinning to no good purpose.
Two students of Zen were in the ashram's courtyard arguing about how to get a live goose out of a large glass bottle. The master approached them, clapped his hands very loudly, and said "The goose is out! Now, go do your chores!"
1
What a disastrous, slow motion train wreck for both Eurozone and Greece. The last minute, surprise referendum orchestrated by Mr. Tsipras and Syriza proved to be the last straw, destroying the negotiating credibility of Greece. The last five months can only be viewed as a lost opportunity for all parties.
53
The humiliation of an entire nation in such vindictive fashion is not soon forgotten. Of all nations, Germany should understand this bitter history lesson better than any. This spectacle will come back to haunt the EU and its financial aristocracy.
88
I assume you're talking about the vituperative abusive language, ads and subway posters that Greece and its leaders have been using against Germany and its leaders during the past 5 months of negotiations in support of their request for more money from Germany!
19
...as if they are unaware that Greece is a seasonal economy and they have just done their darndest to destroy this summer season. They are masters of scapegoating.
Merkel does seem intent on showing that it is the Germans who are running the EU and the Eurozone, and that the Greeks must be made an example of for the other member states that are currently experiencing financial challenges. We all know how the Germans have never gotten over their hyper-inflation trauma of the early 1920s and that this still informs much of their financial decision making to this day. This despite the fact that no living German has personal memories of that time. But it wasn't until this Greek crisis that the old, ugly German has been allowed out onto the world-stage. Their current behavior has more than a wiff of the old Imperial and Nazi eras.
Now I realize that the Germans have little recent international leadership experience. They have mostly been followers since the end of WWII. But to assert their leadership in this way at this time only shows that they are completely unprepared for their new role.
They are actually acting as if they want to breakup the EU. And they may acheive this. Because of their actions, by 2017, both the Greeks and British may well be out of the union. With the Greeks being thrown out against their will and the British voters reacting negatively to what they are currently witnessing when they take their in/out vote.
Now I realize that the Germans have little recent international leadership experience. They have mostly been followers since the end of WWII. But to assert their leadership in this way at this time only shows that they are completely unprepared for their new role.
They are actually acting as if they want to breakup the EU. And they may acheive this. Because of their actions, by 2017, both the Greeks and British may well be out of the union. With the Greeks being thrown out against their will and the British voters reacting negatively to what they are currently witnessing when they take their in/out vote.
23
Well, if nothing else, the photo of Lagarde looking over Tsakalotos's shoulder is priceless. Hope we're not watching these same meetings again in a year or two, but if the past 6 years are any indication, see you again soon!
10
Yes, a wonderful photo that, unlike most of the NYT's articles, tells the truth. And who do you think is looking over Obama's shoulder, eh?
It saddens me to read this article. I have been following the Eurozone/Greece debacle for some time now. I don't care how the media spins it there will be no real winners in this charade. Why? Because human pettiness is on full display in the actions of all concerned.
Should Greece have been admitted to the euro currency union? Apparently not. Have the Greeks or Europe learned that austerity is *not* the way to run an economy that is recovering from a massive downturn? Apparently not. (I am not an economist but anyone who has taken a basic economics course as I have should know that running deficits is more appropriate when you're in a recession or depression - otherwise you risk never stimulating your economy sufficiently to decisively leave such dark times behind) Is Germany being overly punitive? I think so. Are the Greeks responsible for this mess? Yes. Are the Germans? Yes. Are the bankers? Yes.
My disgust is all the more heightened by the fact of my own circumstances. Having completed graduate school four years ago I have struggled to find a job commensurate with my skills. I have looked in numerous markets here in the USA as well as abroad. Like Greece I am indebted. But unlike them I have not practiced tax evasion and the like. And yet I still feel screwed over.
Something is drastically wrong with our world. The worst qualities of capitalism are on full display in many places. Profits ahead of people lead to a world degraded in more ways than I can easily count.
Should Greece have been admitted to the euro currency union? Apparently not. Have the Greeks or Europe learned that austerity is *not* the way to run an economy that is recovering from a massive downturn? Apparently not. (I am not an economist but anyone who has taken a basic economics course as I have should know that running deficits is more appropriate when you're in a recession or depression - otherwise you risk never stimulating your economy sufficiently to decisively leave such dark times behind) Is Germany being overly punitive? I think so. Are the Greeks responsible for this mess? Yes. Are the Germans? Yes. Are the bankers? Yes.
My disgust is all the more heightened by the fact of my own circumstances. Having completed graduate school four years ago I have struggled to find a job commensurate with my skills. I have looked in numerous markets here in the USA as well as abroad. Like Greece I am indebted. But unlike them I have not practiced tax evasion and the like. And yet I still feel screwed over.
Something is drastically wrong with our world. The worst qualities of capitalism are on full display in many places. Profits ahead of people lead to a world degraded in more ways than I can easily count.
133
Care to mention what your graduate degree is in then?
Yes, and that accounts for the attention that Bernie is suddenly getting.
The Greek population is about 3% of the total EU population and the Greek economy, on a good day of which there have been none recently, is about 2% of the Euro economy. Five years in now and Europe is still obsessing over and unable to solve the Greek crises. Given the size of Greece relative to Europe a bit the theater of the absurd; perhaps quite more than a bit. No? A casual disinterested observer from the (dwarf) planet Pluto would be perfectly justified in considering Europe incompetent and inept; not to mention none too bright.
24
I totally understand Germans and truly sympathize with their position because Mr. Tsipras and his party have demonstrated the complete lack of responsibility. They represent typical radical populism (both right and left wing) that perverts political life in many EU countries. However, only in Greece these populists have managed to gain so prominent position so far. But watch out, others are waiting in various corners of EU and salivating on the thoughts that Greece may force EU to give more money for only phony commitments. If it happens, the populists are likely to gain control in 2 years in about a half of EU and this will end this beautiful European project designed to bring the peace and prosperity to 500+ million people. This could also mark the end of NATO.
20
"Populism" is another word for "democracy". So you are against democracy?
2
Well, how much have the Germans profited from loans to Greece? Quite a bit, I imagine. But, i shouldn't say The Germans, because it is almost certain to be corporations, intl and otherwise. DB's doing just fine, and I don't mean the railroad.
So you think that the German have "profited" from loans where the principal has not been paid back, and likely never will be?
Liberal "magical thinking" at its finest.
Liberal "magical thinking" at its finest.
2
There is nothing Greece could do that will please Germany for any agreement, because Germany has already made up its mind for Grexit. More than Greek, Germany wants to send message to France, Italy, Porutgal and Ireland. Even with Greek exit and warnings to others, the debt issue will not go away because other euro countries who have been placed on austerity measures, are barely afloat and can sink any time. The crisis has been mishandled by Germany from the very beginning on misguided ideological grounds with Mr. Schauble on the forefront. European Finance Ministers and Leaders are paralyzed by the events. We are already at a juncture where events will take a life of their own and this may be the beginning of the end of EU and Eurozone as we know it.
7
So the current unilateral terms from the Eurozone demand that Greece must, in less than two days, agree to liquidate certain of its most valuable state assets and place those funds in a Eurozone-controlled bank; agree to the severest terms of austerity, which, both economic theory and, most importantly, experience confirming that theory, has shown to be utterly false and a failure, and, even with these harsh terms, Greece is temporarily thrown out of the Eurozone and must submit to the IMF as the authority that ultimately governs Greece's affairs on pain of all funds ceasing and its removal from the Eurozone being made permanent.
The foregoing describes nothing less than Greece being not a member of the Eurozone but a vassal state from the middle or even dark ages. And Greece's status as vassal is enforced by coercive threats, the threat to destroy Greece's economy and banish it from Europe, which are just short of military force, using destructive financing to accomplish destruction and further threats of destruction, and doing so in a way that is even more effective and destructive than military occupation and at a lower cost for the Eurozone as occupying power.
And this is supposed to be preferable to Greece than Grexit, repudiating its debts, re-instituting the drachma, and attempting to achieve the economic success that Island achieved with its independent currency and independence? By what calculus other than treachery could Tsipras reach such a conclusion?
The foregoing describes nothing less than Greece being not a member of the Eurozone but a vassal state from the middle or even dark ages. And Greece's status as vassal is enforced by coercive threats, the threat to destroy Greece's economy and banish it from Europe, which are just short of military force, using destructive financing to accomplish destruction and further threats of destruction, and doing so in a way that is even more effective and destructive than military occupation and at a lower cost for the Eurozone as occupying power.
And this is supposed to be preferable to Greece than Grexit, repudiating its debts, re-instituting the drachma, and attempting to achieve the economic success that Island achieved with its independent currency and independence? By what calculus other than treachery could Tsipras reach such a conclusion?
50
Poor Greece. Victims. Victims of banks forcing them to borrow 250,000,000,000 Euros. Forcing them to enhance their bargaining position with a referendum. Forcing them to not do the things every other Eurozone country does in terms of responsibility, coherence, and honesty. These poor victims.
I don't see them as victims. There certainly are lots of people whose lives are badly damaged, and who may not recover.
But with all due respect, and having heard my colleague, a cardiac surgeon, castigate his colleagues for not operating urgently on impending heart attack patients without a bribe, I think they live in a corrupt world.
If I was dealing with an entity I didn't trust, that had previously borrowed money and failed to repay, and asked me to design the circumstances of repayment, it would be very strict. Monitored. Specific, short term measures described and verified as in place, and very short term monitoring intervals.
So what, exactly, do you see as cruel here, other than previous Greek governments letting this happen?????
I don't see them as victims. There certainly are lots of people whose lives are badly damaged, and who may not recover.
But with all due respect, and having heard my colleague, a cardiac surgeon, castigate his colleagues for not operating urgently on impending heart attack patients without a bribe, I think they live in a corrupt world.
If I was dealing with an entity I didn't trust, that had previously borrowed money and failed to repay, and asked me to design the circumstances of repayment, it would be very strict. Monitored. Specific, short term measures described and verified as in place, and very short term monitoring intervals.
So what, exactly, do you see as cruel here, other than previous Greek governments letting this happen?????
13
Yes, poor Greek victims, because the Eurozone, as Thatcher and Hague predicted, is a fundamentally flawed contraption that harms most of its members, though those members' elites are complicit, for the benefit of few, such as Germany and others of the wealthy North. Now, either from folly, cowardice, or complicity, Tsipras has joined those elites. So alas, poor Greece, for being victimized by being members of a currency union that is flawed in terms of optimal currency area theory and which now has proved, just as that theory predicted, flawed in fact, as the Eurozone has regressed and descended into feudalism, with Greece as a vassal state with German and other Northern European overlords.
And, if you don't think Europe regressing to feudalism is a bad thing, you must somehow benefit from that regression, either materially benefit or psychologically benefit because that regression suits your personal philosophy. But, as matter of positive economics, the Eurozone in theory and in practices is a miserable thing that must sooner or later either collapse altogether or partially collapse by being reduced to its few wealthy members, with the result that Europeans will once again be at each others throats.
The only way out is either reform of the Eurozone to be consistent with optimal currency area theory, or perhaps, if possible, the reversion of the the EU to just a common trading block, with progress from that to greater unity only as political solidarity permits.
And, if you don't think Europe regressing to feudalism is a bad thing, you must somehow benefit from that regression, either materially benefit or psychologically benefit because that regression suits your personal philosophy. But, as matter of positive economics, the Eurozone in theory and in practices is a miserable thing that must sooner or later either collapse altogether or partially collapse by being reduced to its few wealthy members, with the result that Europeans will once again be at each others throats.
The only way out is either reform of the Eurozone to be consistent with optimal currency area theory, or perhaps, if possible, the reversion of the the EU to just a common trading block, with progress from that to greater unity only as political solidarity permits.
So now with the IMF offered as Governor General of Greece on behalf of Germany and Northern European overlords, who have offered Greece not a viable deal but only a poisoned pill, which is really nothing more than a stark invitation for Greece to leave the Eurozone, can Greece do anything other than leave, unless Tsipras would be a traitor to his nation's best interests and best hope for the future?
It is to be hoped that Greece is now belatedly and finally planning its departure from the Eurozone by turning to expert friends, such as Krugman and Stiglitz and certain legal experts, on how best to effect its departure from the Eurozone, negotiate that departure with the Eurozone and the EU, and perhaps make one last, though surely vain, respectful and viable offer that significantly reduces her debts and defers fiscal contraction in an amount and until a day when Greece's growing economy can afford it.
Notwithstanding her hypocritical protest of U.S. spying on the German government's communication, German et al. are most certainly spying on Greece's government communications and will, therefore, know of any of Greece's plans to leave the euro, just as they've know of all of Greece's plans, because Greece hasn't had and doesn't have the technical sophistication to counter such electronic espionage. So be it, for this disaster is no less the fault the wealthy euro nations' profligate lending and of the Eurozone's inherent flaws, than it is of Greece's profligate borrowing.
It is to be hoped that Greece is now belatedly and finally planning its departure from the Eurozone by turning to expert friends, such as Krugman and Stiglitz and certain legal experts, on how best to effect its departure from the Eurozone, negotiate that departure with the Eurozone and the EU, and perhaps make one last, though surely vain, respectful and viable offer that significantly reduces her debts and defers fiscal contraction in an amount and until a day when Greece's growing economy can afford it.
Notwithstanding her hypocritical protest of U.S. spying on the German government's communication, German et al. are most certainly spying on Greece's government communications and will, therefore, know of any of Greece's plans to leave the euro, just as they've know of all of Greece's plans, because Greece hasn't had and doesn't have the technical sophistication to counter such electronic espionage. So be it, for this disaster is no less the fault the wealthy euro nations' profligate lending and of the Eurozone's inherent flaws, than it is of Greece's profligate borrowing.
Prime Minister Tsipras on the 3rd bailout: 'we want it'. They want it, they need it, they have to have it. The negotiating position a 3 year old. If he had no other plan than a bailout, he should have made a deal months ago and barnstormed his country to reduce fraud, tax evasion while promoting private financing to create jobs for the unemployed.
35
The European leadership is acting in an unconscionable manner toward Greece. I am appalled, and the damage done will not be readily repaired no matter the immediate outcome.
23
You are kidding. Greece is an independent nation, that has controlled its own economic policies from joining the Eurozone. They have not met their commitments, and now their corruption and familiar to meet contractual EU requirements is cause to celebrate them as martyrs??
Really????
Really????
6
Perhaps there is no Europe except as economic interests wish it to be?
Why are we doing this? There is no way all the debt will be repaid. Sure, give Euros now to pay back Euros from the past, but to what end?
7
Greece and its people will always be on welfare. Germany is correct. Greece has no intention of paying their debts or making the hard choices needed to do so. Greece wants to keep their irresponsible economic and welfare system but have others pay the cost. The elephant in the room is that the Europe has no centralized government with the power to make laws that apply to all countries. Imagine a USA without a federal government and 50 individual countries (now known as states) trying to keep a common currency afloat but making their own rules.
26
It is always easy to be confident of one's insults when one feels no need to look into the facts.
1
By asserting that Greece leaving the euro amounts to a 'Europe in retreat,' Hollande is not only spouting nonsense, he is undermining sn opportunity and obligation to make Europe stronger by reforming key parts of it that simply don't make any sense any more. The reasons for failure may be disputed, but it's clear the status quo does not work anymore. The sooner all of Europe gets that, the sooner it can create responses to a recession that don't have to be revisited constantly because they didn't work the first time.
Better to stop with the happy talk of forward momentum and take deep stock of how you came to fall in a hole to begin with. When trying to figure a way out, you have to first admit you're in one.
Better to stop with the happy talk of forward momentum and take deep stock of how you came to fall in a hole to begin with. When trying to figure a way out, you have to first admit you're in one.
37
Here is an open letter from Thomas Piketty to Angela Merkel that was published in The Nation on July 7th. I think this is the only solution that will bring an end to the crisis (and Thomas Piketty knows a lot more about economics than do!):
http://www.thenation.com/article/austerity-has-failed-an-open-letter-fro...
http://www.thenation.com/article/austerity-has-failed-an-open-letter-fro...
9
Did you actually read his letter? It is not an economic argument, it's a social argument. Greece has promised and reneged on fundamental structural reforms for the last 5 years. This is the 3rd bailout. Just in the last 24 hours, it has come to light that their financial ask is approximately 1/3 below the necessary amounts. Forgiveness of debt to an unmoving Greece is like cutting a deal with an addict.
1
Read the article. It suggests the Eurozone was created in the 1950's. That staying in the euro will save Greece. As Paul Krugman, an economist I respect far more than the authors of this construction of "soft" truths and emotion, and a Nobel laureate, sees this the opposite. Greece will be condemned to remain in this condition unless it breaks out of the Eurozone, creates its own currency, and follows Keynes.
These authors provide a path for ever worsening disaster for Greece. Tied to the Euro, the only future for Greece is to begin a vassal state.
These authors provide a path for ever worsening disaster for Greece. Tied to the Euro, the only future for Greece is to begin a vassal state.
@Judy: Piketty is a left leaning Frenchman, that says it all. The letter you reference just mentions to be generous and forgiving and give the Greeks more money. It fails to mention they already received 2 bailouts, this is the third one. And what have they done to change their behavior? NOTHING. The still have state pensions starting at 50 years old, tax collection is still a shambles, partly by the collection mechanics (blame the government) and partly by upstanding Greek citizens who are incorrigible tax dodgers. Did you know the excellent Athens subway employs an honor system to pay tickets, and that the vast majority abuses it and does not pay so the system operates with a huge deficit? That speaks for the Greek mentality. Now, how would YOU approach a deadbeat relative whom you have given money twice and hits you up a third time? And how would F Merkel justify giving lots of tax money from hard working German citizens to partying Greeks? And giving it when the Greeks supposedly accept the same conditions they rejected last Sunday. Hint: they accept the conditions because they have no intention to abide by them.
I am willing to bet that IF they give in and give Greece money, they will have the same situation 2-3 years from now, except they will be 80 Billion Euros poorer.
I am willing to bet that IF they give in and give Greece money, they will have the same situation 2-3 years from now, except they will be 80 Billion Euros poorer.
1
I don't have a good crystal ball, but my guess is that whatever deal we come to with Iran will work better that any deal the EU gets with Greece.
It may be old history ~ 18 months ago? ~ but the US had to hammer and fight and convince the EU27 to place significant sanctions on Russia for the Ukraine stuff. Because politically and financially they didn't want to take the risk.
While those sanctions are "old news" it appears that a lot of people are still fighting and there is "collateral damage" there, they figure a few thousand troop s and a few billion in weapons will look good.
And this will just just kick the can down to ...
It may be old history ~ 18 months ago? ~ but the US had to hammer and fight and convince the EU27 to place significant sanctions on Russia for the Ukraine stuff. Because politically and financially they didn't want to take the risk.
While those sanctions are "old news" it appears that a lot of people are still fighting and there is "collateral damage" there, they figure a few thousand troop s and a few billion in weapons will look good.
And this will just just kick the can down to ...
1
That picture here with Tsakalotos, Christine Lagarde, and varies EU finance ministers in Brussels looks like some dramatic Broadway show. Next time NYTIMES please include some background music; first a Beethoven symphony and at the end, when everything turns out OK, something from Mozart. Point is, Greece will continue as an EU member and all of the EU will have to pay some money; also the USA because Obama has expressed the need for Greece to continue its membership - he is correct; don't throw salt in the sugar. Between the US and EU we have some 750 million people and Greece has only 10 million so that is a drop in the bucket. To headline that everybody is working deep into the night is always a clear sign that no damage is and will be done.
2
Today's capitalism,- thank you Ayn Rand, and the Chicago school of economics, is strangling Greece. Privatize, austerity and suck the poor dry -- mottoes for our sorry age, come from Wealth run amok. What ever happened to enlightened self interest , wherein the rich knew that they had to keep the poor content or else there would be hell to pay?
14
I think this is known as "kicking the can down the road".
Maybe Greece will stay in the Eurozone for now but we will be seeing this farce played out again in 2 to 3 years.
Maybe Greece will stay in the Eurozone for now but we will be seeing this farce played out again in 2 to 3 years.
9
Grexit now or Grexit later, that's the choice. Get on with it.
I remember chatting with my father about what must happen when we hear of mountain climber deaths; usually it's reported along the lines of "in a tragic turn, so-and-so plunged...." In images of the sport, the climbers always appear tethered together, and you sometimes see one suspended over a precipitous drop by his peer. We concluded there must be some pact, explicit or implicit, that in many of these tragedies the line is deliberately cut so the one basically already lost does not take others with him.
I believe the European community finds itself in such a predicament trying to grope forward without realistic advance planning. Germany and others want to cut the rope, or are virtually begging Greece to do so itself to spare and already conscience-(and image as ruthless)- troubled Germany any coup de grace duties.
I suggest accept joint responsibility. Greece didn't pull its weight, and went overboard on demand-side Keynesisn theory (will their wallets and they'll spend), under an overarching European austerity culture. A toxic mix implicating all.
Do a reset, take a loss all around and establish advance planning. Make as generous an insurance provision as possible to avoid cutting off. If terms THEN are not met, then cut. But don't try to justify doing so now, however tempting.
I believe the European community finds itself in such a predicament trying to grope forward without realistic advance planning. Germany and others want to cut the rope, or are virtually begging Greece to do so itself to spare and already conscience-(and image as ruthless)- troubled Germany any coup de grace duties.
I suggest accept joint responsibility. Greece didn't pull its weight, and went overboard on demand-side Keynesisn theory (will their wallets and they'll spend), under an overarching European austerity culture. A toxic mix implicating all.
Do a reset, take a loss all around and establish advance planning. Make as generous an insurance provision as possible to avoid cutting off. If terms THEN are not met, then cut. But don't try to justify doing so now, however tempting.
10
Again, from the depths of my being: don't cut the rope. I feel like it's 1914 (yes, we are virtually at the centennial) when European nations stood at the brink and then plunged.
That famous economist of late discredited, yet somehow always seeming to wink from the "dustbin" he himself coined, said "Calamity is destined to repeat itself: 1st as tragedy, then as farce." It would be a little of both if Germany, who understands better than most what kind society economic devastation and hopelessness can breed, should have a hand in a neighbor plunging there. Germany, beneficiary of the THEN UNPRECEDENTED Marshall Plan.
THE QUALITY OF MERCY IS NOT STRAINED ;
IT DROPPETH AS THE GENTLE RAIN FROM HEAVEN UPON THE PLACE BENEATH. IT IS TWICE BLEST;...
That famous economist of late discredited, yet somehow always seeming to wink from the "dustbin" he himself coined, said "Calamity is destined to repeat itself: 1st as tragedy, then as farce." It would be a little of both if Germany, who understands better than most what kind society economic devastation and hopelessness can breed, should have a hand in a neighbor plunging there. Germany, beneficiary of the THEN UNPRECEDENTED Marshall Plan.
THE QUALITY OF MERCY IS NOT STRAINED ;
IT DROPPETH AS THE GENTLE RAIN FROM HEAVEN UPON THE PLACE BENEATH. IT IS TWICE BLEST;...
1
In regards to mountain climbing, to my knowledge it is in fact the opposite. Both you and your partner depend completely on each other for survival. You do not cut the line.
Simon Yates famously decided to cut a rope in 1985. You might be interested to read about the circumstances. The story is published under the title, "Touching the Void". Even given the incredible circumstances, he received a lot of criticism for cutting the rope.
Simon Yates famously decided to cut a rope in 1985. You might be interested to read about the circumstances. The story is published under the title, "Touching the Void". Even given the incredible circumstances, he received a lot of criticism for cutting the rope.
The terms propsed by Greece would never be acceptable in the private sector. The Greeks have a track record of not paying bills and have no realistic chance of paying off what is owed. Why put good money after bad? I have news for Europe: the Eurozone experiment didn't work.
17
The continuing Greek crisis is full employment for world leaders. We either bail the Greeks out with Euros or ship bags of food and supplies.
3
I just hope that the Swiss bankers who are sitting on billions of Greek tax evader money, per the Lagarde List, think to provide some humanitarian support to the average Greeks who have no money to buy food or basic necessities.
48
That vote is looking foolish now that the Greek ministers have to go back to the Greek people with harsh realistic proposals. Hopefully, the Greeks realized it was all theater.
21
you really can't vote in other peoples money! it was a stupid populist ploy by the Greek government that lost them any remaining goodwill with their creditors.
5
You are against democracy.
2
The vote and the celebrations after were a huge mistake, as it is never a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you when you have no food in your larder.
2
Greece never should have entered the Eurozone, They did not have the economic where-with-all to meet Euro standards from Day One. Their books were cooked by the Big Banks and they were gleefully accepted without thorough financial scrutiny by Eurozone managers. This has served the greedy needs of the banks, and the political ambitions for those European leaders who wanted rapid growth of the Eurozone. But discarding their own currency has been a disaster for the Greek people. and they should return to the Drachma for their own good even if there is financial pain in the short term.
132
You are the economics expert? You have factual proof of all these statements? Just asking.
1
The Greek people have suffered, and will suffer more. Profilgate, or not, they are being asked to bow to their "masters" of finance. Outright war is not the only way, or perhaps, the most profitable way, to dominate.
2
I am not an economics expert - bu I read what they have to say.
See the following references:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/06/20/paul-krugman-is-right...
http://www.pappaspost.com/former-labor-secretary-robert-reich-people-see...
See the following references:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/06/20/paul-krugman-is-right...
http://www.pappaspost.com/former-labor-secretary-robert-reich-people-see...
2
Come hell or high water these so called European Leaders will do anything to perpetuate the fundamentally flawed economic system.
14
From media reports coming from Athens today, the Greek Parliament is ready to approve any legislation demanded by eurozone leaders + ECB + IMF for another bailout of $ 90 plus billion euros.
One thing for sure. In exchange for remaining in the eurozone, Greeks must give up sovereignty and accept eurozone bureaucrats running the economy from now on. Greece will become an eurozone protectorate.
One thing for sure. In exchange for remaining in the eurozone, Greeks must give up sovereignty and accept eurozone bureaucrats running the economy from now on. Greece will become an eurozone protectorate.
9
The Greeks are well into their 4th or 5th negotiation in the past 15 years.
The one thing they have not done in 15 years is to implement any reform discussed or promised. Greece used to be a ship building powerhouse. At some point, the government took it over, and in the past 5 plus years they have not been able to sell or let it go. They have resisted layoffs, they have resisted taking governmental pay cuts. They have only raised taxes and cut pensions,,, which has well entrenched the Greek art of dodging taxes. They raise taxes,,, and collect less. They have been successful in cutting pensions and the supports of the less able.
To me, it seems that there is a wrench in the works preventing any needed basic reform.
They need to free up the private sector, instead of hamstringing it with tax and regulation. Increase in GNP is ONLY accomplished with tiny ventures, one person, hiring two people, then three, then more.
We do the same in the US. Exactly the companies needed, exactly the manufacturing needed, is saddled with Workmen's Comp, SSI taxes, property tax, required health policies, unemployment taxes,,,, you cannot hire your first worker until you have both a million dollars and a full time bookkeeper/attorney.
It strangles free enterprise. And it IS free enterprise that ultimately makes us wealthy.
We need to study the Greeks,,, cause we are headed down that same road.
The one thing they have not done in 15 years is to implement any reform discussed or promised. Greece used to be a ship building powerhouse. At some point, the government took it over, and in the past 5 plus years they have not been able to sell or let it go. They have resisted layoffs, they have resisted taking governmental pay cuts. They have only raised taxes and cut pensions,,, which has well entrenched the Greek art of dodging taxes. They raise taxes,,, and collect less. They have been successful in cutting pensions and the supports of the less able.
To me, it seems that there is a wrench in the works preventing any needed basic reform.
They need to free up the private sector, instead of hamstringing it with tax and regulation. Increase in GNP is ONLY accomplished with tiny ventures, one person, hiring two people, then three, then more.
We do the same in the US. Exactly the companies needed, exactly the manufacturing needed, is saddled with Workmen's Comp, SSI taxes, property tax, required health policies, unemployment taxes,,,, you cannot hire your first worker until you have both a million dollars and a full time bookkeeper/attorney.
It strangles free enterprise. And it IS free enterprise that ultimately makes us wealthy.
We need to study the Greeks,,, cause we are headed down that same road.
2
The Greek parliament may approve it, but it is clear those are empty words, just as was the referendum.
As has been pointed out here many times, the outsiders have saved the Germans many times - politically, financially and even militarily. They have propped German economy by buying German goods. And yet the first thing Germany, ascendant again, can think of repaying these 'debts' by strengthening Europe is a short-sighted, punitive campaign against a small wayward nation.
It is true that the Greeks have themselves to blame by electing an incompetent and untrustworthy leadership, but Germany should be able to see beyond that. To have an actual vision beyond penny pinching Schadenfreude. Now that Tsipras has capitulated, it is the time to get to work and help Greeks build a modern economy that is based on the rule of law. There will never be a better time. To see German leaders hem and haw like petit bourgeoisie instead of statesmen is not only painful - it is frightening. At the very least, it says it is France, not Germany, that should lead the continent.
It is true that the Greeks have themselves to blame by electing an incompetent and untrustworthy leadership, but Germany should be able to see beyond that. To have an actual vision beyond penny pinching Schadenfreude. Now that Tsipras has capitulated, it is the time to get to work and help Greeks build a modern economy that is based on the rule of law. There will never be a better time. To see German leaders hem and haw like petit bourgeoisie instead of statesmen is not only painful - it is frightening. At the very least, it says it is France, not Germany, that should lead the continent.
80
France to lead the continent? Surely you are joking? Not Germany not France. They are both deeply culpable of leading Europe into a ditch.
1
"Tsipras has capitulated"? If only that were true, then Greece would end its unviable corruption, collect taxes especially from their rich shipowners, allow businesses to flourish without incessant delays and bribery, and end age 50 retirements ... have they agreed to that? I don't think so.
7
The French have an excellent record on human rights and prudent statesmanship. Remember their opposition to the Iraq War? Their reluctance was entirely correct.
6
What is happening tonight in Brussels and for the past five months should outrage everyone who still believes that the will of the people in a sovereign democratic state still matters. Germany and its vassals are trying to dismantle democracy in Greece and -as a strong message to others - everywhere in Europe where the people question the absolute rule of finance capital. I hope that the representatives of Greece can find the will to resist the massive pressure. Whatever the outcome of this drama, the Euro project has now been exposed for what it is-- a power grab by the financiers of northern Europe with their HQ in Frankfurt.
95
The people made their wishes known. The people's wishes do not always come true.
Of course they can say no. Nobody is forcing them to engage in these negotiations. The latest round started when Tsipras went back to the Eurzone and asked them for an additional 50b Euros over the next 3 years. What is under debate is the conditions under which Europe is wiling to extend the additional funds . So I do think that Europe is being rather harsh, but it's also misleading to suggest that this is somehow a violation of Greek democratic rights. If the Greeks don't want the money, they don't have to take the money.
2
Very well said - a power grab by the financiers of northern Europe, headquartered in Germany. Exactly so.
They have the Greeks over a barrel.
And basically the EU can dictate the terms of the deal.
And, of course, the Greeks will protest and say they are being manipulated and basically screwed by other countries that lent them money which they never repaid and never will, and which are out to punish them.
The Greek parliament will not approve any measure in the three days that the creditors are demanding that will force them to do what they consider at best unpalatable and at worst surrender.
The majority of creditor nations have simply said, We don't trust you. For years we never trusted you and now after the NO vote in the referendum and the 180 turnaround by the Greeks who demanded the referendum vote NO, you are coming to us and saying, YES.
It is all Greek to us.
Why is it a mystery to anyone how this train wreck will play out?
And basically the EU can dictate the terms of the deal.
And, of course, the Greeks will protest and say they are being manipulated and basically screwed by other countries that lent them money which they never repaid and never will, and which are out to punish them.
The Greek parliament will not approve any measure in the three days that the creditors are demanding that will force them to do what they consider at best unpalatable and at worst surrender.
The majority of creditor nations have simply said, We don't trust you. For years we never trusted you and now after the NO vote in the referendum and the 180 turnaround by the Greeks who demanded the referendum vote NO, you are coming to us and saying, YES.
It is all Greek to us.
Why is it a mystery to anyone how this train wreck will play out?
43
This is more about ideology than economics. Simply, right wing Germans and their counterparts want to destroy Greece; just as right wingers have always wanted to destroy any threat to the 1%'s entitlements.
25
Cyrano, I hate to put you through the intellectual strain; I realize that merely saying 1% is an accepted leftist argument for any problem. However, in this case the failure of the Greek population, rich and middle class, to pay their fair share of taxes is a huge part of the problem. They are simply running out of other people's money.
10
Simply, left wing Greeks and their counterparts want the rest of Europe to pay for their profligate ways.
Germany has done an impressive job of hiding that it bailed out German banks which, in the spirit of plunder that swept the 2000-aughts world of global finance, made enormous -- and enormously risky -- loans to Greece.
Mass media and the people who consume it are convinced that Greece is a den of wasters of other people's money -- "other people's money," you hear that one a lot.
What about Germany lavishing "other people's money" on German bankers infatuated with up-side and oblivious to down? And how about the Euro as a "common currency" that runs on loans by rich countries in the EU to poor. This scheme is a fiscal time bomb, again rich with upside for greedy bankers and rife with the sort of downside neoliberal bankers just ignore.
"Other people's money" provided to Greece is going directly from Greek hands to holders of Greek debt. I can't believe how many millions of people buy into this charade and excoriate Greeks for their supposed laziness and profligacy, all while "other people's money" is going through Greece's hands to bail out bankers who don't need no stinkin' due diligence.
I also wonder exactly who the hostile characters who have been responding to my posts lately work for. Military? Republican Nation Committee? Intelligence? White supremacists? All these meld into Darth Vader at some point. The ad hominem quality of their attacks is as impressive as the absence of substance.
Mass media and the people who consume it are convinced that Greece is a den of wasters of other people's money -- "other people's money," you hear that one a lot.
What about Germany lavishing "other people's money" on German bankers infatuated with up-side and oblivious to down? And how about the Euro as a "common currency" that runs on loans by rich countries in the EU to poor. This scheme is a fiscal time bomb, again rich with upside for greedy bankers and rife with the sort of downside neoliberal bankers just ignore.
"Other people's money" provided to Greece is going directly from Greek hands to holders of Greek debt. I can't believe how many millions of people buy into this charade and excoriate Greeks for their supposed laziness and profligacy, all while "other people's money" is going through Greece's hands to bail out bankers who don't need no stinkin' due diligence.
I also wonder exactly who the hostile characters who have been responding to my posts lately work for. Military? Republican Nation Committee? Intelligence? White supremacists? All these meld into Darth Vader at some point. The ad hominem quality of their attacks is as impressive as the absence of substance.
107
This rather strange argument of "the bailout money does not go to Greece, it goes to the banks" keeps getting repeated over and over. Even though in the process of making it it becomes apparent as deeply flawed:
"[Bailout money] provided to Greece is going directly from Greek hands to holders of Greek debt" -- well, what do you think crated that Greek debt ?
Greece borrowed hundreds of billions (using cooked books, but leaving that aside) -- SPENT those hundreds of billions -- can't pay back when the lenders come calling -- EU says "fine, we'll bail you out -- we'll pay the lenders instead, it's called a bailout" -- and then somehow that money never went to and was spent by Greece ?!?!
The Greeks did get the money and they did spend the money, hundreds and hundreds of billions and the rest of the Eurozone taxpaying (and voting) citizens are now on the hook for it !!
"[Bailout money] provided to Greece is going directly from Greek hands to holders of Greek debt" -- well, what do you think crated that Greek debt ?
Greece borrowed hundreds of billions (using cooked books, but leaving that aside) -- SPENT those hundreds of billions -- can't pay back when the lenders come calling -- EU says "fine, we'll bail you out -- we'll pay the lenders instead, it's called a bailout" -- and then somehow that money never went to and was spent by Greece ?!?!
The Greeks did get the money and they did spend the money, hundreds and hundreds of billions and the rest of the Eurozone taxpaying (and voting) citizens are now on the hook for it !!
2
uae:
It seems you assume that bank loans to developing economies are government guaranteed and by definition will always be paid.
I learned my lesson when a friend with an "idea" borrowed $1500 from me. He really did try to pay me back, in installments. I was actually embarrassed to take the money, but his honor was at stake.
Another friend, a guy who owns a cafe in San Francisco, told me everybody does that once. I certainly don't expect to be paid if I mess up and loan to a guy who can't pay it back again.
It seems you assume that bank loans to developing economies are government guaranteed and by definition will always be paid.
I learned my lesson when a friend with an "idea" borrowed $1500 from me. He really did try to pay me back, in installments. I was actually embarrassed to take the money, but his honor was at stake.
Another friend, a guy who owns a cafe in San Francisco, told me everybody does that once. I certainly don't expect to be paid if I mess up and loan to a guy who can't pay it back again.
Thats why >80% of the taxes in Greece are not payed.
They are too hard working to find the time to fill out
their tax forms.
They are too hard working to find the time to fill out
their tax forms.
From what we are privy to via the media, I can only imagine whatever the mandate laid down by Germany, and tag along France, a lot of so called bad blood is being absorbed. Down the road, not today, or the immediate futiure ,all other satellite countries will take note, of what could be their individual fate, if they don't follow the German rules. One has always known, getting involved with the IMF is to be avoided at all cost.
3
Clearly Merkel's strategy is to make Greece's membership in the eurozone too tough that Greece will withdraw.
Thus, Merkel will be able to say that leaving the eurozone as Greece's choice, not Germany's fault.
Thus, Merkel will be able to say that leaving the eurozone as Greece's choice, not Germany's fault.
8
No matter what happens this round with Greece, the inherent problems of European currency will remain. There is no central democracy. The is no central taxation, and no central fiscal body. There is no guarantee against bank runs. Private bank debts were converted to public deb– again without a vote, or even threat of the next election, like we have in the US.
None of the plans do anything to make the entire common currency experiment sustainable. They rely on blaming others. Donald Trump should be pleased.
None of the plans do anything to make the entire common currency experiment sustainable. They rely on blaming others. Donald Trump should be pleased.
14
There's a poignant and cruel irony to see French and Greeks working more than 35 hours in a week.
Apparently, some things are worth the time and effort.
There are innocents - but they tend to be the young, more than the old.
If only the NYT ran a story for every young Greek who has yet to find a first job, rather than for someone who may lose a pension.
Apparently, some things are worth the time and effort.
There are innocents - but they tend to be the young, more than the old.
If only the NYT ran a story for every young Greek who has yet to find a first job, rather than for someone who may lose a pension.
11
Here is a link that charts the different average working hours in European countries:
http://www.statista.com/chart/3297/greeks-work-the-longest-hours-in-europe/
http://www.statista.com/chart/3297/greeks-work-the-longest-hours-in-europe/
1
Is the purpose of the program to punish the Greeks or to pay off the creditors? Grece cannot get out from under its debt with 25% unemployment.
The first job is to get people back to work in a revamped economay that is capable of supporting debt payments stretched out over decades.
I also think it would be reasonable to put a limit on interest payments to what is average for the Euro countries. You can't have it both ways demand the safety of EU backed debt payment and also get high rates of interest. If people demand a high rate of interest, they should not be surprised if they loose their principal.
The first job is to get people back to work in a revamped economay that is capable of supporting debt payments stretched out over decades.
I also think it would be reasonable to put a limit on interest payments to what is average for the Euro countries. You can't have it both ways demand the safety of EU backed debt payment and also get high rates of interest. If people demand a high rate of interest, they should not be surprised if they loose their principal.
43
Here we have a game of chicken which both sides deserve to lose and surely will both lose.
Namely, "German taxpayers" are never going to be paid back and will lose more and more. It's supremely kind of the French and Italians to volunteer to throw more good money after bad.
The Greeks are not going to know economic growth within the lifetimes of anyone now living.
That's because neither foreigners nor Greeks can administer the economy of Greece.
If the euro can get along without the UK, I would have thought it could get along without Greece. But actually, it can't get along with or without the Greeks, or in any which way, any more than Dumbarton Oaks could stand eternal. Anyone for a peso-dollar peg?
Namely, "German taxpayers" are never going to be paid back and will lose more and more. It's supremely kind of the French and Italians to volunteer to throw more good money after bad.
The Greeks are not going to know economic growth within the lifetimes of anyone now living.
That's because neither foreigners nor Greeks can administer the economy of Greece.
If the euro can get along without the UK, I would have thought it could get along without Greece. But actually, it can't get along with or without the Greeks, or in any which way, any more than Dumbarton Oaks could stand eternal. Anyone for a peso-dollar peg?
6
The German position has moved beyond responsible lender to punitive avenger. Greece removed its toxic minister from the discussions; Germany should do the same.
91
Is there anything more hilarious than watching lazy, greedy collectivists torture themselves to death with the belief that they are entitled to anything they want?
19
Watching an arrogant German government trying its hardest to destroy European democracy one more time. Actually, more sad than hilarious. Hilarious is watching the governor of Louisiana blast a successful American economy for too much debt while governing a state that only survives on money from the productive half of the country.
4
I hope they're working on the GREXIT.
There is NO other option.
There is NO other option.
54
I hope so, too.
1
According to D. Kemp (AFP) via the Guardian, the temporary Grexit condition has been dropped from the latest document being discussed.
The fact is that Greece would be better off outside of the European Union and NATO.
Returning to the drachma will be tough. But it won't be tougher than remaining in the eurozone.
I'm sure Russia and China will help out.
Returning to the drachma will be tough. But it won't be tougher than remaining in the eurozone.
I'm sure Russia and China will help out.
8
Greece outside of the Euro currency is all that matters.
Staying in the EU allows for trade to continue.
Staying in NATO provides protection.
Staying in the EU allows for trade to continue.
Staying in NATO provides protection.
5
This is such absolute, ridiculous insanity. This whole situation would be comical if it wasn't so depressing. The Eurozone and the EU have become a complete joke.
This has nothing to do with economics and hasn't for a long, long time. If the Germans were really thinking about economics, they would be concerned about the prospect of returning to a much stronger Deutschmark-esque currency not too far down the line. How would their vaunted export economy deal with the loss of its captive EU markets and a much stronger currency?
The Germans need to have a "come-to-Jesus moment" and remember why the EU exists in the first place. Seventy years ago, the world would have been entirely justified in breaking Germany up permanently and eradicating the notion of a German nation, at that point a genocidal state that had wrought untold destruction on a large portion of the Earth. What on Earth are the Germans thinking with the types of proposals they're putting forward? Why not just propose running the Greek government from Vichy and really get the message across?
I am a liberal and believe strongly in cooperative institutions, but if I were a Brit or a Spaniard or an Italian, etc., I would be switching allegiances right about now to the political parties advocating exiting the undemocratic club of bullying and shame that the EU has become.
This has nothing to do with economics and hasn't for a long, long time. If the Germans were really thinking about economics, they would be concerned about the prospect of returning to a much stronger Deutschmark-esque currency not too far down the line. How would their vaunted export economy deal with the loss of its captive EU markets and a much stronger currency?
The Germans need to have a "come-to-Jesus moment" and remember why the EU exists in the first place. Seventy years ago, the world would have been entirely justified in breaking Germany up permanently and eradicating the notion of a German nation, at that point a genocidal state that had wrought untold destruction on a large portion of the Earth. What on Earth are the Germans thinking with the types of proposals they're putting forward? Why not just propose running the Greek government from Vichy and really get the message across?
I am a liberal and believe strongly in cooperative institutions, but if I were a Brit or a Spaniard or an Italian, etc., I would be switching allegiances right about now to the political parties advocating exiting the undemocratic club of bullying and shame that the EU has become.
135
Let's stop with referencing WW2, this is getting boring.
The Greeks lied in their application to join the EU and Euro currency, this is now coming back to bite them.
The current Greek Government are unpatriotic economic terrorists who are betraying their own people especially pensioners by perpetuating the lie that the EU will continue to give them money under any circumstances.
TODAY I SAY NO MORE! NO MORE OF MY GERMAN TAXES WILL GO TO PAY THESE CRIMINALS. If Frau Merkel betrays Germany, the next elections will be quite interesting.
The Greeks lied in their application to join the EU and Euro currency, this is now coming back to bite them.
The current Greek Government are unpatriotic economic terrorists who are betraying their own people especially pensioners by perpetuating the lie that the EU will continue to give them money under any circumstances.
TODAY I SAY NO MORE! NO MORE OF MY GERMAN TAXES WILL GO TO PAY THESE CRIMINALS. If Frau Merkel betrays Germany, the next elections will be quite interesting.
23
Yes, it is utterly depressing insanity. I've spent all of my adult life as a committed europhile - and joined the European Movement to get involved in the yes campaign in the upcoming referendum on whether or not the UK should stay in. If the Greeks (and the Italians, Portuguese and Spanish...) tweaked their figures to join the euro, they did so with the connivance of the banking sector that is now hounding them into poverty to pay, with officials in Brussels turning a blind eye. To witness this open bullying and contempt for the current Greek government - which is not the one that created this mess, has been an eye-opener for me and people like me.
Whatever the Germans think they are achieving, one of the consequences is that they have actually proved that all the UKIP noise about loss of sovereignty is not the backward-looking little-Englander nonsense we all thought it was, and as a result, made it a lot more likely that the a majority here will vote to leave (and whatever decision is eventually made about Greece, the damage is done). I am starting to think that I might vote that way too.
Whatever the Germans think they are achieving, one of the consequences is that they have actually proved that all the UKIP noise about loss of sovereignty is not the backward-looking little-Englander nonsense we all thought it was, and as a result, made it a lot more likely that the a majority here will vote to leave (and whatever decision is eventually made about Greece, the damage is done). I am starting to think that I might vote that way too.
42
Germans are tire of hearing about WW2. So, lets talk about 1945 to present day. Do you like not living as part of USSR? Did your taxes pay for the Berlin airlift? Did your taxes pay for 12 Nuclear Aircraft carriers, thousand of tanks, 100 submarines, and thousands of F-16s that penned in and finally broke the Soviet threat and freeing East Germany? My taxes paid for that, not yours.
Germany needs to stop being so full of themselves and think about the greater good of society. You do not want a Russian Greece - but you will have one in 20 years if you continue down this path. And, maybe you should lift a finger to help the Ukraine while you are at it.
Germany needs to stop being so full of themselves and think about the greater good of society. You do not want a Russian Greece - but you will have one in 20 years if you continue down this path. And, maybe you should lift a finger to help the Ukraine while you are at it.
7
I for one am fairly confident a deal will be made, despite the wishes of Wolfgang Schauble, as Merkel is too smart to begin the unraveling of an entire currency union (at least at this juncture) for the whims of a few hawks in her party.
At the same time, I am sure that the deal will be a bad one for Greece based on what has been revealed about the talks so far, and will only prolong the inevitable, which is a future deal that includes stimulus and debt forgiveness for Greece, or a nasty exit following several more bailouts and many more billions in losses for the creditors.
At the same time, I am sure that the deal will be a bad one for Greece based on what has been revealed about the talks so far, and will only prolong the inevitable, which is a future deal that includes stimulus and debt forgiveness for Greece, or a nasty exit following several more bailouts and many more billions in losses for the creditors.
19
Is it possible to refer to Syriza as something other than the "radical left-wing party." How about "the ruling party," or just "Syriza?"
161
Agreed. "The left-wing ruling party" would suffice; "radical" is an overly vague, relative term.
14
I prefer to refer to these 'radical left-wing party' as economic terrorists and unpatriotic Greeks. How could they lie to their own people and allow its pensioners to starve by playing politics with their lives. Shame on these Greek terrorists.
7
Agreed.
Why not just call Syriza by the name it uses in Greek to describe itself: Coalition of the Radical Left or Synaspismós Rizospastikís Aristerás.
Among its more prominent wings are: Coalition of Left, Renewing Communist Ecologic Left, Internationalist Workers Left, Movement for the United in Action Left, as well as groups describing themselves as Marxist, Marxist-Leninist, Maoist, Luxemburgist ( Rosa to you), Trotskyist, Eurocommunists and Euroskeptics.
In comparison they make Bernie Sanders look like a right wing Republican.
Why not just call Syriza by the name it uses in Greek to describe itself: Coalition of the Radical Left or Synaspismós Rizospastikís Aristerás.
Among its more prominent wings are: Coalition of Left, Renewing Communist Ecologic Left, Internationalist Workers Left, Movement for the United in Action Left, as well as groups describing themselves as Marxist, Marxist-Leninist, Maoist, Luxemburgist ( Rosa to you), Trotskyist, Eurocommunists and Euroskeptics.
In comparison they make Bernie Sanders look like a right wing Republican.
4
France and Italy are two other losers in thé game, and potentially fallow in thé footsteps of thé Greeks. So no wonder that they support thé Greeks in this crises. They too, live on Germany's back.