We need not forget the Geopolitical enviroment through which Mr Dodik is acting.Putin is encouraging such actions.Russia is still miffed about the outcome of the great Serbian nation.
While I do not condone Dodik actions .The right of self determination should be applied to serbs in Bosnia as well . If they elect through a national referendum to be part of Serbia then Europe should not oppose them.
Every century this area shifts geographically due to the sectarian majorities. We should let cool headed folks prevail.
While I do not condone Dodik actions .The right of self determination should be applied to serbs in Bosnia as well . If they elect through a national referendum to be part of Serbia then Europe should not oppose them.
Every century this area shifts geographically due to the sectarian majorities. We should let cool headed folks prevail.
4
Once accomplished, genocide may be punished but never reversed. In this sense, it is always successful.
The other lesson is that Europeans, for all the foreign troops buried in European soil saving them from themselves, will never discomfort themselves in any serious way for anyone else.
The other lesson is that Europeans, for all the foreign troops buried in European soil saving them from themselves, will never discomfort themselves in any serious way for anyone else.
With Russian denial and without their support the trouble will just continue. With Russia stealing any country they want and support any civil war that suits them nothing will change.
2
After Yugoslavia broke up the Serbs, who had been the ruling force, got all of the weaponry of the Yugoslav army. The Muslims, none. The Serbs are close to The Russians both ethnically and religiously. The selling of the Muslims by the Serbs began under the administration of the elder George Bush. Nothing was done because it would have necessitated embarrassing Yeltsin, struggling to maintain control as ultranationalists like Zirinovsky were yapping at his heels. The 'realpolitik' at the time dictated that the the west 'stay out'. By the Time Clinton was president thee was nothing left of Yeltsin's power worth saving. The U.S. organized the solution as the Europeans watched. FAST FORWARD. Ukraine will continue to fester as the EU talks. Why? Gas and oil supplied by Russia to Europe. Putin's veto of the moon tells the whole story.
1
I was in Rogatica, Republika Srpska to monitor the general elections in 2010. Every single Serb I had to deal with in Rogatica--from my driver and translator to the person on the election commission--said I needed to know that Rogatica would not vote for Dodik. And you know what, Rogatica didn't vote for him. There are other voices in Repbulic Srpska but for some reason, the international community has made Dodik its man there. He is helping the international community fulfill its obvious wish to see RS go to Serbia and the other part of B-H waste away.
2
ANOTHER HOLOCAUST Eli Wiesel, when asked about the ethnic cleansing in the civil war in Srebrenica said that he had not slept since it began. He said that it was "The Holocaust." The most savage sort of ethnic cleansing which during WW II was aimed primarily toward unarmed minorities, including the Jews along with other minorities including Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill and the handicapped. Though the ethnic cleansing was on lesser scale in Srebrenica, it was equally abhorrent. The questions remain: How do we seek recognition and compensation for the survivors? How do we demonstrate our own moral and ethical integrity by pursuing justice for those who perished and their survivors? How do we honor the memory of the martyrs? Not only do we have that obligation toward the martyrs and the survivors, we owe it to ourselves, if we value our humanity.
14
Dear Edward,
As a former refugee from Bosnia I can guarantee you that the lessons from Srebrenica are not being forgotten.
Actually, I could guarantee you that the lessons are being implemented across the world.
After committing genocide in Srebrenica, a government that orchestrated genocide was rewarded by giving an exclusive control of the region of Srebrenica and all other areas where the ethnic cleansing of the local populations was accomplished in order to create ethnically pure society.
The villains have learned this gruesome lesson and the same approach is being implemented by the Putin government in Ukraine, by the ISIS in Iraq/Syria and by a military junta in Myanmar.
As long as Bosnia is divided into two separate entities created as a result of the intentional bloody atrocities and genocidal activities to force the people out of their homes (and such a terrible crime consequently lavishly rewarded by the international community), this kind of behavior will spread across the world as a forest fire.
As a former refugee from Bosnia I can guarantee you that the lessons from Srebrenica are not being forgotten.
Actually, I could guarantee you that the lessons are being implemented across the world.
After committing genocide in Srebrenica, a government that orchestrated genocide was rewarded by giving an exclusive control of the region of Srebrenica and all other areas where the ethnic cleansing of the local populations was accomplished in order to create ethnically pure society.
The villains have learned this gruesome lesson and the same approach is being implemented by the Putin government in Ukraine, by the ISIS in Iraq/Syria and by a military junta in Myanmar.
As long as Bosnia is divided into two separate entities created as a result of the intentional bloody atrocities and genocidal activities to force the people out of their homes (and such a terrible crime consequently lavishly rewarded by the international community), this kind of behavior will spread across the world as a forest fire.
17
Is this really a surprise? Just look inward to see the turmoil surrounding the Confederate Battle Flag. It does not matter to those on the losing side that this symbol is in the face of the winners.
Fragmentation of societies is still rife in this world and I see no cure for the problem. Even the most peaceful areas can have an outbreak of ethnic cleansing desires if not action. With mass migrations on the upswing we can expect even more violence in many parts of the world for decades to come if not centuries or even forever.
Fragmentation of societies is still rife in this world and I see no cure for the problem. Even the most peaceful areas can have an outbreak of ethnic cleansing desires if not action. With mass migrations on the upswing we can expect even more violence in many parts of the world for decades to come if not centuries or even forever.
7
Apparently not forgotten, but purposely ignored by Russia. What can you expect from them? These were crimes against humanity. We all know it.
9
I don't know how many of you remember the Winter Olympics during that war. I wrote this about a women's figure-skating performance:
in her blood-colored dress
Katerina Witt
dances for Sarajevo--—
falls and rises
falls and rises
--published in Black Bear magazine, 1997
in her blood-colored dress
Katerina Witt
dances for Sarajevo--—
falls and rises
falls and rises
--published in Black Bear magazine, 1997
3
And so it goes. Humans kill each other for any reason you can imagine. Just deny it ever happened and most people won't care. Homo sapiens killed off Neanderthals and now we kill each other. Empathy is not our strongest trait.
7
Author Joseph's focus on Srebrenica is difficult to understand. Why this particular one from all the documented historical cases of ethnic cleansing and genocide? It has always been, and still is, naive to rely on the protection of UN troops, be it in Africa or on the Balkan powder keg. "God helps those, who help themselves ..."
6
Better if you needn't depend on the UN, but also better it the UN forces in a situation are sufficient to deal with what's in front of them and the member states back them up. The failure of nerve in not giving air support was also a factor here. Why is Srebrenica a focus now--because it's the anniversary, and because the forces that caused these murders are still active.
13
I met Milorad Dodik after the Bosnian civil war (while working on a property restoration plan for displaced persons and refugees). Mr. Dodik struck me as reasonable.
So when I now read of his genocide denial, I conclude he is cynically appealing to extremists, for his own ambition, and marginalizing true moderates—as Serbian politicians do in Belgrade, all with Russian support.
This highlights a fundamental question: will the Republika Serpska be permitted to continue drifting toward de facto union with Serbia (and separation from the Federation of Bosnia & Herzegovina)? Because this drift is occurring—and it explains Mr. Dodik's monstrous denial: to concede genocide is to own the problem in a way that won't permit walking away from the Federation after time.
If the West is serious about not rewarding genocide, it must isolate Mr. Dodik and Serbia, until both recognize in fact that genocide denial is not an option, creeping annexation will fail, and war crimes won't be crowned with territorial gains; i.e., sanctions must be imposed, until Serb leaders emerge who accept that the larger goal driving the Bosnian genocide was wrong and won't be achieved.
Unless Serbs reconcile themselves to implementing Dayton's geopolitical promises, the Accords merely delayed the rewarding of war crimes.
This, to me, is one lesson of Srebrenica: a choice between mere rhetoric about genocide, and meaningful commitment to eradicating it as a tactic of aggressors. Which will it be?
@ricfouad
So when I now read of his genocide denial, I conclude he is cynically appealing to extremists, for his own ambition, and marginalizing true moderates—as Serbian politicians do in Belgrade, all with Russian support.
This highlights a fundamental question: will the Republika Serpska be permitted to continue drifting toward de facto union with Serbia (and separation from the Federation of Bosnia & Herzegovina)? Because this drift is occurring—and it explains Mr. Dodik's monstrous denial: to concede genocide is to own the problem in a way that won't permit walking away from the Federation after time.
If the West is serious about not rewarding genocide, it must isolate Mr. Dodik and Serbia, until both recognize in fact that genocide denial is not an option, creeping annexation will fail, and war crimes won't be crowned with territorial gains; i.e., sanctions must be imposed, until Serb leaders emerge who accept that the larger goal driving the Bosnian genocide was wrong and won't be achieved.
Unless Serbs reconcile themselves to implementing Dayton's geopolitical promises, the Accords merely delayed the rewarding of war crimes.
This, to me, is one lesson of Srebrenica: a choice between mere rhetoric about genocide, and meaningful commitment to eradicating it as a tactic of aggressors. Which will it be?
@ricfouad
38
Very well spoken. thanks.
5
Readers may be interested in the analysis of the Bosnia situation in 1995 by our CT committee http://www.thestruggle.org/str55/struggle_journal_55.htm We on the Left complained of the arms embargo that only helped the Serb ultra-nationalists and they betrayal of Bosnia by the Clinton administration. Even as late as '95 it looked as if a multi-national Bosnia on all its traditional land was possible. Instead Clinton let Bosnia bleed until its leaders accepted his Dayton deal and the current situation with its "Republic of Srpska". Partition and ethnic states lead to growth of jihadi forces within Bosnia and all the rest.
2
"Srebrenica’s victims will never return. But every July, the world will always remember how they perished — and who sent them to their graves."
I fully agree with these sentiments. But we also need to put it into perspective. 8000 men died at Srebrenica. Yet a few years earlier, 500000 to a million died in the genocide in Rwanda.
Strangely the genocide in Rwanda seems to have been forgotten by the press of the developed world, although the carnage was a factor of 100 larger.
There is a reason for this. Rwanda, and the suffering of other sub-Saharan countries within Africa conflicts with "conventional wisdom."
Make no mistake. The carnage in Rwanda is not isolated. We have an never ending civil war in the Congo, in which children serve as soldiers, an epidemic of AIDS in Zimbabwe, outright starvation in Darfur, Somalia, and more recently parts of Southern Africa.
This misery is a consequence of too much population growth. It is shared with India, as described in Katherine Boo's book, Beyond the Beautiful Forevers. More than half of India's children are severely malnourished.
China, although severely overpopulated, on the other hand has mostly vanquished hunger due to its one-child policy.
The selective reporting by the NY Times and other media allow Americans to continue to deny reality.
Yes global warming is real. Yet it is but one symptom of too much population growth. And population growth is beginning to lower US living standards thru illegal immigration.
I fully agree with these sentiments. But we also need to put it into perspective. 8000 men died at Srebrenica. Yet a few years earlier, 500000 to a million died in the genocide in Rwanda.
Strangely the genocide in Rwanda seems to have been forgotten by the press of the developed world, although the carnage was a factor of 100 larger.
There is a reason for this. Rwanda, and the suffering of other sub-Saharan countries within Africa conflicts with "conventional wisdom."
Make no mistake. The carnage in Rwanda is not isolated. We have an never ending civil war in the Congo, in which children serve as soldiers, an epidemic of AIDS in Zimbabwe, outright starvation in Darfur, Somalia, and more recently parts of Southern Africa.
This misery is a consequence of too much population growth. It is shared with India, as described in Katherine Boo's book, Beyond the Beautiful Forevers. More than half of India's children are severely malnourished.
China, although severely overpopulated, on the other hand has mostly vanquished hunger due to its one-child policy.
The selective reporting by the NY Times and other media allow Americans to continue to deny reality.
Yes global warming is real. Yet it is but one symptom of too much population growth. And population growth is beginning to lower US living standards thru illegal immigration.
13
Ethnic cleansing, genocide, murder, atrocity, slaughter ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Europe never learns. Hatred of Muslims, Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, and other minorities goes on and has gone on in Europe before and after WWII. The Europeans are nationalistic tribes intent on maintaining their own identity, dominance, purity and borders. The lessons of Srebrenica have never been learned. The virulent hatred is too deep.
Also, while the Dutch and NATO bear responsibility so does the United States and the Clinton Administration for it's failure of leadership and almost total inaction. Clinton was paralyzed. Early NATO intervention could have prevented the slaughter.
Twenty years have passed since the massacres of Srebrenica and European paralysis continues. The Hague is impotent and NATO is less than impotent. In the meantime Russia, taking note of European divisions and inability to act is imposing it's own brand of ethnic cleansing and nationalistic aggression. Radical Islamists too are taking note and advance throughout the Mid-East and Africa secure in the knowledge that NATO is powerless on its own continent and America still lacks the will and even the might to halt them.
The lessons of Srebrenica are yet to be learned. Europe and the European Union is pre-occupied with the economic crisis in Greece. They've written off Crimea and Ukraine while offering feeble, half-hearted assurance to Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Poland.
Russia is waiting. Slaughter will resume.
Also, while the Dutch and NATO bear responsibility so does the United States and the Clinton Administration for it's failure of leadership and almost total inaction. Clinton was paralyzed. Early NATO intervention could have prevented the slaughter.
Twenty years have passed since the massacres of Srebrenica and European paralysis continues. The Hague is impotent and NATO is less than impotent. In the meantime Russia, taking note of European divisions and inability to act is imposing it's own brand of ethnic cleansing and nationalistic aggression. Radical Islamists too are taking note and advance throughout the Mid-East and Africa secure in the knowledge that NATO is powerless on its own continent and America still lacks the will and even the might to halt them.
The lessons of Srebrenica are yet to be learned. Europe and the European Union is pre-occupied with the economic crisis in Greece. They've written off Crimea and Ukraine while offering feeble, half-hearted assurance to Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Poland.
Russia is waiting. Slaughter will resume.
19
Unfortunately, Europe is not unique in its tribal nature.
5
Author Joseph's scolding of NYT readers for forgetting the lessons of Srebrenica tries so hard to be poignant . . . or something. Instead, Mr. Joseph delivers what to me is a rather facile response to hard questions about genocide and civilized people's response to them.
Samantha Powers hits closer to the mark in her widely publicized opinions on consequences and accountability for genocide. But even she, as our UN Ambassador, can't withstand deniers like Vladimir Putin who blocked the UN's condemnation of the Serbian Army's massacre of civilians under Gen. Ratio Mladic.
This is off the point, but to digress, I have always preferred the response to Nazi genocide of the Jews by my friend, David Stoliar. He was the sole survivor from among almost 800 Jews killed in February 1942 when a Soviet Union submarine torpedoed the refugee ship, the Struma, in the Black Sea. He joined the British Army.
Samantha Powers hits closer to the mark in her widely publicized opinions on consequences and accountability for genocide. But even she, as our UN Ambassador, can't withstand deniers like Vladimir Putin who blocked the UN's condemnation of the Serbian Army's massacre of civilians under Gen. Ratio Mladic.
This is off the point, but to digress, I have always preferred the response to Nazi genocide of the Jews by my friend, David Stoliar. He was the sole survivor from among almost 800 Jews killed in February 1942 when a Soviet Union submarine torpedoed the refugee ship, the Struma, in the Black Sea. He joined the British Army.
5
2 issues. First, please stop calling massacres "genocide" -- you cheapen genuine genocide like what happened to Jews in WWII.
Second, The lesson to be learned in Yugoslavia is that breaking up a county into ethnic enclaves is a terrible idea. George HW Bush tried to stop Germany and Austria from pushing for the breakup if Yugoslavia, but their allies -- the Croats -- would not stop.
The Croats started the war and the Croats and Serbs were the most brutal, and the Muslims suffered the most. I really don't understand why the Times ignores the Croat ethnic cleansing of half a million Serbs from the Krajina.
Both sides were brutal but that is war. When you have war, you will have atrocities.
"War is cruelty" -- WT Sherman, during his bloody campaign.
Second, The lesson to be learned in Yugoslavia is that breaking up a county into ethnic enclaves is a terrible idea. George HW Bush tried to stop Germany and Austria from pushing for the breakup if Yugoslavia, but their allies -- the Croats -- would not stop.
The Croats started the war and the Croats and Serbs were the most brutal, and the Muslims suffered the most. I really don't understand why the Times ignores the Croat ethnic cleansing of half a million Serbs from the Krajina.
Both sides were brutal but that is war. When you have war, you will have atrocities.
"War is cruelty" -- WT Sherman, during his bloody campaign.
9
So why are you ignoring Serbian ethnic cleansing of half a million Croats from the Krajina region in 1991? Could you justify what happened, for example, in WW2 by only quoting Sherman? Of all the key protagonists from the late 80's and early 90's, Milosevic was the one who really pushed Yugoslavia over the brink. Tudjman and, to a lesser extent, Izetbegovic were just consequences of the de facto coup d'etat that Milosevic committed in the 1988-89. The only right that Croats and Slovenes wanted to exercise in 1991--as a reaction, in part, to the pressure from Milosevic to change the federal structure of Yugoslavia--was the same right that, coincidentally, Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians exercised -- independence. Srebrenica happened because the political leadership of Bosnian Muslims had never anticipated the war. It also happened because Clinton was waiting for a cardinal "error" that Serbs would make so that he could justify helping Croatian and Bosnian Muslim forces along the north-western border of Bosnia. So, in a way, the victims of Srebrenica were a political sacrifice that ultimately led to the end of the war and Dayton Agreement. The Dutch soldiers were not to blame here. Had NATO, UN, and EU been on the same page, it would have been much easier to solve the problem of ex YU. They were not. Why? Just check the how the French and the UK government approached the war in ex-YU and especially in Bosnia from 1991 to about 1994.
6
jjb, you make some good points, but on several other points, you are way out of line.
"The Dutch soldiers were not to blame here." Yes, they were, along with the useless united nations. The dutch soldiers were cowards from top to bottom. I don't know how any dutch person can sleep at night knowing their army was complicit in the deaths of 8,000 Bosnians.
And what would President Clinton have to do with it, except that once again, the U.S. had to go in and clean up a european mess.
"The Dutch soldiers were not to blame here." Yes, they were, along with the useless united nations. The dutch soldiers were cowards from top to bottom. I don't know how any dutch person can sleep at night knowing their army was complicit in the deaths of 8,000 Bosnians.
And what would President Clinton have to do with it, except that once again, the U.S. had to go in and clean up a european mess.
2
I totally agree with you about Clinton. No argument here. Ditto UN. Regarding the Dutch soldiers -- I would not go that far.
1
In reading An Ordinary Man (Rwanda) and Richard Holbrook's book on Bosnia, I found an interesting commonality. In both places ethnically diverse populations had intermarried and lived together peacefully for a considerable time.
Rusasabagina and his wife were Hutu/Tutsi, and the Rwandan communities were similarly mixed, and he stated that most people paid no or little attention to tribal identity.
Holbrook quoted the long-time US ambassador to Yugoslavia as reporting that the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims had lived in ordinary peace and harmony since WWII.
The alarming commonality is the blame given by the ambassador to the media (a national TV station) in whipping up ethnic divisiveness and hatred; Rusasabagina fixed the blame on a national radio station that began interspersing its music programs with hate messages, which evolved into a hate radio station where the messages overtook the music. He cited one piece accusing a Tutsi elementary school teacher of poisoning the minds of the children.
In both situations, significant blame was attached to the media.
In the US we have seen the effectiveness of media in stoking negative emotions directed at and affixing labels to specific ethnic, political, and other groups. Consider the effectiveness of ISIL in using the internet to recruit young people who otherwise would likely live peaceful lives. Prejudice and hatred are indeed terrible forces.
Our best defenses may be our First Amendment rights and responsible media.
Rusasabagina and his wife were Hutu/Tutsi, and the Rwandan communities were similarly mixed, and he stated that most people paid no or little attention to tribal identity.
Holbrook quoted the long-time US ambassador to Yugoslavia as reporting that the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims had lived in ordinary peace and harmony since WWII.
The alarming commonality is the blame given by the ambassador to the media (a national TV station) in whipping up ethnic divisiveness and hatred; Rusasabagina fixed the blame on a national radio station that began interspersing its music programs with hate messages, which evolved into a hate radio station where the messages overtook the music. He cited one piece accusing a Tutsi elementary school teacher of poisoning the minds of the children.
In both situations, significant blame was attached to the media.
In the US we have seen the effectiveness of media in stoking negative emotions directed at and affixing labels to specific ethnic, political, and other groups. Consider the effectiveness of ISIL in using the internet to recruit young people who otherwise would likely live peaceful lives. Prejudice and hatred are indeed terrible forces.
Our best defenses may be our First Amendment rights and responsible media.
25
"responsible media" is almost an oxymoron in today's USA. Consider Fox ("Faux") News and their hate speech colleagues on Clear Channel radio. Is there a difference between them and the George Rutagunda type deejay character on Rwandan Hutu radio? Not much. They coordinate their yelling "fire" in the ethnic-identification theatre with the American political right extreme so well, one wonders when it will spin out of control into violence. Wait a minute..... it already has: first the African-Americans, then Latino-Americans, and ultimately coming for disagreeing Euro-Americans. They just need a Dodik-style character for US President to be a trigger.
9
Is Putin to blame?
When I watch the great Djokovic on the tennis court, I am always reminded of Mladic and Srebenica. I hope Federer is triumphant!
4
Why? Is he a war criminal? Is he even a Serbian nationalist? Do you know that? I certainly don't. It's completely unfair to condemn him because of his place of origin. Not all Serbians support the brutality and the nationalist ideology of the likes of Mladic. Don't generalize.
8
Remember? Armenia, Auschwitz, Sobibor, Kolyma, Cambodia, Andersonville, Sudan, Rwanda, Nanking, los desaparecidos, Babi Yar, Srebrenica ........ I think that mankind will always forget.
40
Serbia in the 90's was the best example of relativism gone mad. Of course everyone involved was guilty; Serbia was still most at fault. The inability of Europe to see this cost hundred's of lives. The Serbian imperialist vision was worse than other nationalist projects
7
Breaking up countries is always problematic as it creates a vacuum in which ethnic relations are not settled and troublemakers on all sides will try to get the best deal for their group. In my opinion the enthusiasm with which the Western world embraced the separatists in Yugoslavia was severely misplaced.
Yes, the Serbs tried to create a Serb entity in Bosnia. But how much can you blame them given the maltreatment with which the new Croat government dealt with its Serbs and given the unilateral independence declaration of Bosnia that left its Serbs out. There were quite a few Muslims who saw Bosnia as "their" state where Serbs and Croats would be tolerated minorities.
Big trouble like in Yugoslavia always starts small. Yet if we want to analyze what went wrong we need to look there.
Yes, the Serbs tried to create a Serb entity in Bosnia. But how much can you blame them given the maltreatment with which the new Croat government dealt with its Serbs and given the unilateral independence declaration of Bosnia that left its Serbs out. There were quite a few Muslims who saw Bosnia as "their" state where Serbs and Croats would be tolerated minorities.
Big trouble like in Yugoslavia always starts small. Yet if we want to analyze what went wrong we need to look there.
22
The problem is not breaking up countries - there was not really a "Yugoslavia" to begin with, it was an artificial entity. Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Bosnians, had a right to their own countries, no one has the right to deny people self-determination.
The is humankind's inability to draw borders. Tito manipulated borders and populations in yugoslavia to make sure there would be large minorities within serbia, croatia, bosnia, etc.
You also get everything wrong about Bosnia's independence. First, because some Croats had treated some Serbs badly, that gave them the right to ethnically-cleanse a part of Bosnia for themselves? Next, no one left the Serbs out - Bosnia had an election, racist serbs (e.g., Karadzic, Mladic) didn't like the result, so they decided to take themselves out - and begin the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Bosnians.
Just because your country's armed forces didn't protect Srebenica doesn't give you the right to recast history to your suiting.
The is humankind's inability to draw borders. Tito manipulated borders and populations in yugoslavia to make sure there would be large minorities within serbia, croatia, bosnia, etc.
You also get everything wrong about Bosnia's independence. First, because some Croats had treated some Serbs badly, that gave them the right to ethnically-cleanse a part of Bosnia for themselves? Next, no one left the Serbs out - Bosnia had an election, racist serbs (e.g., Karadzic, Mladic) didn't like the result, so they decided to take themselves out - and begin the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Bosnians.
Just because your country's armed forces didn't protect Srebenica doesn't give you the right to recast history to your suiting.
5
Holden Caulfield is alive, and well, and still whining in the person of Whoever the author is.
Srebrenica, Bosnia, Herzegovinian have been falling apart for decades, possibly centuries; I certainly dun't know, neither does E.P.J. (The Author), and this Paper-of-Record has lost the turntable.
The peoples of this region decided to tear this area apart; let them now reap what has been sown. Want to put it back together again? That is your decision ... and your task to work out yourselves.
Srebrenica, Bosnia, Herzegovinian have been falling apart for decades, possibly centuries; I certainly dun't know, neither does E.P.J. (The Author), and this Paper-of-Record has lost the turntable.
The peoples of this region decided to tear this area apart; let them now reap what has been sown. Want to put it back together again? That is your decision ... and your task to work out yourselves.
3
What exactly were you going to do with the Muslim men? And why does Europe have to float their economy? War is a complete horror show and some win, some lose, some die, some survive and it has been going on for all of mankind.
England expelled their "criminal" to Australia and the Pilgrims left for America and then killed a lot of Native Americans. Granted, we still kill one another but putting law over religion is a pretty good idea.
England expelled their "criminal" to Australia and the Pilgrims left for America and then killed a lot of Native Americans. Granted, we still kill one another but putting law over religion is a pretty good idea.
7
When nothing goes right, go left
When nothing goes right, go left
For the basics remain the same, be it right or left
Food, shelter, clothing are the basic needs
For people of all colors and creeds
Turning Left or right is a matter of perception
As reality is the same for all, nobody is an exception
Today the lines have become blurred
For technology is the great leveler, for both wise and the nerd
It is better we realize before it is too late
As people are in a hurry and may not wait
For us to come to terms with facts
If we keep on changing tracks
The world always remembers the one who attempts for unity and fails
Rather than those who simply watch and allow things to go off the rails
7
Yes indeed an unfortunate thing happened.
The issue I see Russia has and other countries with the politicization of Srebrenica, is the unfairness pushed forth. Those that bombed Serbia for Kosova for example (Albright / Clark / etc.), ended up owning telcos, electric utilities, receiving streets named for them, and in effect created a narco state, that to this day continues to kill and drive Serbs out. The response from the International community? Muted indifference.
When over 200000 Serbs were driven from their homes in Croatia with the help of U.S. - the greatest ethnic cleansing since ww2, ...what was the response? Muted indifference. Today that is treated as a national holiday. I've had members of my family impaled in their homes by the croatian army, others chopped down in cold blood, and others flee their ancestral homes, only to be considered refugees in Serbia, etc.. no one has answered for any of it.
There have been no resolutions on this?
Why not?
The people putting forth resolutions are not learning lessons they themselves are choosing to preach. There are more wahabbis, mosques, and islamists in Bosnia than anywhere else in Europe. Wherever the West is tricked to fight for the wrong side Islamists grow (Bosnia / Syria/ Lybia/ Iraq, etc). It is like they live in a vacuum and only spew out information one way, accepting no feedback, or truth coming back to them.
The issue I see Russia has and other countries with the politicization of Srebrenica, is the unfairness pushed forth. Those that bombed Serbia for Kosova for example (Albright / Clark / etc.), ended up owning telcos, electric utilities, receiving streets named for them, and in effect created a narco state, that to this day continues to kill and drive Serbs out. The response from the International community? Muted indifference.
When over 200000 Serbs were driven from their homes in Croatia with the help of U.S. - the greatest ethnic cleansing since ww2, ...what was the response? Muted indifference. Today that is treated as a national holiday. I've had members of my family impaled in their homes by the croatian army, others chopped down in cold blood, and others flee their ancestral homes, only to be considered refugees in Serbia, etc.. no one has answered for any of it.
There have been no resolutions on this?
Why not?
The people putting forth resolutions are not learning lessons they themselves are choosing to preach. There are more wahabbis, mosques, and islamists in Bosnia than anywhere else in Europe. Wherever the West is tricked to fight for the wrong side Islamists grow (Bosnia / Syria/ Lybia/ Iraq, etc). It is like they live in a vacuum and only spew out information one way, accepting no feedback, or truth coming back to them.
10
Typical comment Serbian nationalist comment. It starts out relatively reasonably and then turns into a bunch of stereotypes and myths. Please explain how the West picked the wrong side in that conflict. Sure, atrocities were committed on all sides, but the scale of the genocide carried out by Serbia in Bosnia, as well as Serbia and Milosevic's role as the initiator of the conflict from Slovenia to Croatia to Kosovo, is unrivaled by Croatia, BiH, or any of the other parties. Of course there are more Mosques, Isalamists, and Wahhabis in Bosnia than anywhere else in Europe, although most Bosnians are very much secular. That's because Bosnia is traditionally a majority-Muslim land. Similarly, there are more right-wing Orthodox Christian ultra-nationalists, like those who protected war criminals like Mladic for years, in Serbia than anywhere else in Europe. Plenty of Serbians with blood on their hands own telecoms and electric utilities too. There was lots of evil to go around. But nothing else compared to the genocide perpetrated by Serbian nationalists in BiH.
35
"When over 200000 Serbs were driven from their homes in Croatia with the help of U.S. "
This comment is patently ridiculous... if you have some proof, please share.
"There are more wahabbis, mosques, and islamists in Bosnia than anywhere else in Europe."
The Muslims in Bosnia were not "islamist" until your people decided to begin the genocide against them, and europe turned its back on Bosnia, the united nations cut arms off to the Bosnians (of course, the serbs still got arms from milosevic). Any Bosnian that is islamist is the direct responsibility of the serbs.
Your post has been reported, it needs to be removed - ridiculous.
This comment is patently ridiculous... if you have some proof, please share.
"There are more wahabbis, mosques, and islamists in Bosnia than anywhere else in Europe."
The Muslims in Bosnia were not "islamist" until your people decided to begin the genocide against them, and europe turned its back on Bosnia, the united nations cut arms off to the Bosnians (of course, the serbs still got arms from milosevic). Any Bosnian that is islamist is the direct responsibility of the serbs.
Your post has been reported, it needs to be removed - ridiculous.
2
We have forgotten the lessons of Srebrenica when we ignore the massacres on religious minorities that have occurred all throughout the Islamic world and have turned non-Muslims into a scared, powerless, and persecuted minority in every Islamic country. Islamic countries that used to have hundreds of thousands of religious minorities now have a few dozen. But never mind, because of the crusades. And because the Charleston shooter, Oklahoma bomber, Columbine killers, and Ted Bundy were all white and non-Muslim we are instructed to remain mum. (The same day a white racist killed 9 black Christians in Charleston over 100 black Christians were killed by Islamists in Nigeria. But the former event will be used to silence the latter incidents which occur daily).
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Those groupu you mentioned they have been living with muslim over 1400 years, if yhey existed to this day, that shows the tolerance of islam and muslim, those fundamentalists are products of the west and reaction to hate manger like you
1
Again, Putin, with no shame, stands alone.
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It's not that the lessons of Srebrenica have been forgotten. It's that they were never learned in the first place.
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In drawing lessons, let us not forget the cowardice of the Dutch, and by this I include the Dutch leadership in Holland. Had they fought, as was their duty, the massacre could not have taken place. And let us also not forget the role Bill Clinton played. As presidential candidate he spoke as if he was going to be behind the Bosnians, and so encouraged them to fight. But when thousands of them were threatened with execution--you can be sure we watched this from satellites--the Clinton administration did nothing. Just as it did nothing during African genocide--except that Madeleine Albright instructed her underlings not to use the word genocide.
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Before you criticise the Dutch in Srebrenica you should consider a few things:
- when the fighting began one of the Dutch soldiers had been killed by a Muslim fighter
- the Muslims - who had considerable forces there - stopped fighting. So it was left to the rather small Dutch force to stand up to the Serbs.
- the Dutch repeatedly asked for air support. They didn't get it. But neither did they get a flat rejection or instructions on what they should do in those circumstances.
- many internationals involved believed that the enclaves were an obstacle to peace and weren't sorry to see them fall. What they didn't expect was mass murder.
So yes, the Dutch troops could have done more. But the real cowards were those higher up in the UN/NATO hierarchy who preferred doing nothing out of fear that they would be held accountable if trouble resulted.
- when the fighting began one of the Dutch soldiers had been killed by a Muslim fighter
- the Muslims - who had considerable forces there - stopped fighting. So it was left to the rather small Dutch force to stand up to the Serbs.
- the Dutch repeatedly asked for air support. They didn't get it. But neither did they get a flat rejection or instructions on what they should do in those circumstances.
- many internationals involved believed that the enclaves were an obstacle to peace and weren't sorry to see them fall. What they didn't expect was mass murder.
So yes, the Dutch troops could have done more. But the real cowards were those higher up in the UN/NATO hierarchy who preferred doing nothing out of fear that they would be held accountable if trouble resulted.
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Wim, appreciate your sensitivity to this, but when you say "the Muslims stopped fighting", well:
1. It's the Bosnians, this is part of the problem, europeans never saw Bosnia as a country, as it truly is, with the same right to self-determination as slovenia, croatia, serbia, etc.
2. How could the "Muslims" still fight in May 1995 when there had been an arms embargo against Sarajevo since 1992, imposed by that great protector of human rights, the united nations. They had nothing to fight with. Of course, the serbs had no such issues, milosevic saw that they were well-equipped.
1. It's the Bosnians, this is part of the problem, europeans never saw Bosnia as a country, as it truly is, with the same right to self-determination as slovenia, croatia, serbia, etc.
2. How could the "Muslims" still fight in May 1995 when there had been an arms embargo against Sarajevo since 1992, imposed by that great protector of human rights, the united nations. They had nothing to fight with. Of course, the serbs had no such issues, milosevic saw that they were well-equipped.
You are omitting the glaring fact entered into the record in The Hague proceedings that the US and UK had significant advance notice of Mladic's forces' preparations and intentions, had concluded in cables that the safe zones were "untenable", and we told the UN to stand down who then left the Dutch holding the bag.
There's evidence in Mladic's trial that CIA satallites watched the slaughter in real time. It was organized over time, time when we knew their ethnic cleansing propensities. Then to blame it on the Dutch was as cowardly as not going in to rescue those refugees.
So where will be Clinton, his State Dept, our CIA or anyone from our country during any of these 20th commemorations taking any responsibility?
Apparently we felt peace with the Serbs was required at all costs, including a few thousand in collateral damage. Just another day in a war.
And we lied, like we do. There's little coverage in the US of evidence--hard copy evidence--coming out in The Hague, similar to with torture. Like we have to pretend our hands are clean, to small children I guess.
This Op-ed ignores our place in this entirely and, being in the UN, you knew.
There's evidence in Mladic's trial that CIA satallites watched the slaughter in real time. It was organized over time, time when we knew their ethnic cleansing propensities. Then to blame it on the Dutch was as cowardly as not going in to rescue those refugees.
So where will be Clinton, his State Dept, our CIA or anyone from our country during any of these 20th commemorations taking any responsibility?
Apparently we felt peace with the Serbs was required at all costs, including a few thousand in collateral damage. Just another day in a war.
And we lied, like we do. There's little coverage in the US of evidence--hard copy evidence--coming out in The Hague, similar to with torture. Like we have to pretend our hands are clean, to small children I guess.
This Op-ed ignores our place in this entirely and, being in the UN, you knew.
15
In fairness to the Dutch they only withdrew because they didn't want to leave their forces in harms way while the U.N. air forces stood down. But this happened in Europe's back yard and not in the Americas. It was the failure of European leadership to take decisive action while waiting for the U.S. to intervene that allowed this atrocity to occur.
3
David, there is no "fairness toward the dutch", they behaved in a cowardly manner, full stop. They didn't even try to put up a fight - were they on vacation? A part of being in the military is that you might have to put your life in danger ... oh, I forgot, that's what everyone has the U.S. armed forces around for.
Julie, the U.S. has ZERO responsibility. Of course, the CIA knew what was going on in Bosnia ... everyone knew, there was reporting on the civil war for 3+ years before this massacre happened. Where was the european union? Or, any of its constituent members Where was the united nations? All complicit in the deaths of hundred of thousands Bosnians, just the dutch armed forces are guilty of negligent homicide in the murders of 8,000 Bosnians. The europeans had 3-1/2 years to fix Bosnia, they did nothing but talk, which is their big thing. What deal could Clinton possibly have gotten better than he did, with the serbs knowing that the europeans were cowards?
When will the europeans take ANY responsibility for what goes on in their sovereign territory?
Julie, the U.S. has ZERO responsibility. Of course, the CIA knew what was going on in Bosnia ... everyone knew, there was reporting on the civil war for 3+ years before this massacre happened. Where was the european union? Or, any of its constituent members Where was the united nations? All complicit in the deaths of hundred of thousands Bosnians, just the dutch armed forces are guilty of negligent homicide in the murders of 8,000 Bosnians. The europeans had 3-1/2 years to fix Bosnia, they did nothing but talk, which is their big thing. What deal could Clinton possibly have gotten better than he did, with the serbs knowing that the europeans were cowards?
When will the europeans take ANY responsibility for what goes on in their sovereign territory?
Then came Srebrenica. One more, the powers said "Never again."
Then came Rwanda, and yet another "Never again."
Now we have South Sudan and Syria.
It's always "Never again" until the next time.