Frankly, I see more younger people attending traditional Latin Masses these days. The Missa Cantada offered in my parish is usually well attended -- and beautifully sung. The so-called "contemporary" or "youth Masses" in my area seem to have older people attending and the music is bad -- really bad.
2
Religion no matter how we slice it and try to justify it, still requires the surrender of the self to some unprovable entity conceived by men to control and exploit other men. I have no problem with people keeping it a private matter between them and their conscience. When it becomes a closed system with no possibility for change it becomes a cult. The best gift we can give to humanity is a solid humanist education. Let individuals make their own choices. Pope Francis is a great man who knows well that his job is to help those who cannot help themselves. If he wasn't tied up with the rigid dogma of the Catholic church he would have done an ever greater job liberating people from the yoke of tyranny. It is obvious that he is loyal to the church because it gave him a world platform which is huge. So he owes it a debt of gratitude. He is the first Pope I have ever liked and respect. He is very cool, he commands respect.
4
The Latin people love their music so why not allow it in their Catholic Churches. If it brings them closer to God, all the better. Where I worship in Manhattan, I love the music and it makes me want to sing and participate. Singing is another way of praying and being devoted to God. I am all for it and it certainly is contagious. Also, there is a wealth of beautiful Catholic and religious music that is just waiting to be sung.
2
I love Pope Francis and am eternally grateful for his open and willing heart. Prejudice, fear, and deprogramming are the opposite and un-Christian, pushing believers away.
6
The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is not as harmless as the article would have you believe. First, it attempts to take elements of Pentecostal and Evangelical Christianity (praying in tongues, so-called "miraculous healings" and "being slain in the Spirit) and "graft" them onto Catholicism--with limited success. It's the kind of nonsense you see with those Sunday morning tele-evangelists who fleece older people out of their retirement savings by promising them a ticket to Heaven. Second, the CCR is tinkering with the very foundations of Catholicism by promoting its "Baptism of the Holy Spirit"--a non-sacramental ceremony which they claim is necessary to be a "fully realized Catholic"--dismissing the necessity of the Seven Sacraments of the Church. Third, it promotes an unhealthy elitism in its members--as in "I'm a better Catholic than you are because I'm a charismatic." At best, this is amateurish theo-babble. At worst, it is downright heresy that threatens to sunder the Catholic Church. I love Pope Francis, and I am grateful that he is taking the Church in a more charitable, Christ-like direction. But he would be wise to follow the example of his predecessors Pope John-Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI and steer clear of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
3
Hopefully Latin America will continue to enjoy better education as it goes forward. This is probably the best that could and hopefully can happen to its population. Education, as is well documented, demystifies institutions like the Catholic Church that in itself carries a heavy responsibility for the suffering of Latin America, not the least during the "christianisation/colonization" of the native populations.
2
Good work. While ceremony has its place, I often feel more connected with God in a lively and upbeat atmosphere. One that's more positive and less condemnatory; solemn. Young people want to be alive, not passive, in their faith.
6
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not supposed to be a gush of raw emotionalism or a platform for entertainment. But the Church has always appropriated aspects of popular culture, from long ago converting pagan sites to Christian uses, to more recently embedding wretched 70's music into services, to aping Protestant fundamentalists by "speaking in tongues" and using wild hand gestures. This is not a road to Christ, this is a PR diversion to keep bodies in Catholic pews. (I long ago crossed over from the Catholics to the Quakers with their dignities of silent meditation.)
2
Westerners jump, shout, sing, and cheer for a home run or a soccer goal, or perhaps for a spectacular guitar riff. I've always wondered why we celebrate these things aloud but we're expected to remain still and silent when hearing a message of salvation for the world? For those that believe, I think this is wonderful direction for the Church.
14
I go to a progressive RC church in Manhattan- these holly roller "charismatics" drive me nuts and the media eats up the spectacle of Catholics raising their arms like Hari Krishnas- Thomas Merton and Dorothy Day are "rolling" over in their graves- so to speak-- What has the RC church become?
2
I once ran into Dorothy Day in a store-front Pentecostal church on the Lower East Side. She was interested in a genuine spiritual experience and was not afraid to look outside of what was approved by the mainstream.
5
As a point of information, Francis MacNutt, one of the first RC priests to become involved in the charismatic movement, was deeply affected by the work of Thomas Merton and served as the Director of the Thomas Merton Foundation in St. Louis..
2
Other than your personal belief, what is wrong with raising ones hand up to the Lord? I agree, the music and "theatrics" are not intended to be the heart of the mass. The Eucharist and Confession are the foundation of the mass. Quite a few people I know still attend the mass in Latin, which is offered in several parishes.
I don't really see how trying to emulate mass culture is going to help the church in the long run. People see through the fact that Christian rock is pretty second rate quality. Why would I go to church for Christian rock when I can go to a really good show the night before and sleep in through church?
On the other hand, the classical music developed over centuries is 1st rate and is a better representation of the depth of reality that the Church is trying to convey. I love rock music as much as the next guy, but let's admit that its often pretty nihilistic, shallow, and vapid. Let's compare that to Bach or Beethoven's Ode to Joy!
On the other hand, the classical music developed over centuries is 1st rate and is a better representation of the depth of reality that the Church is trying to convey. I love rock music as much as the next guy, but let's admit that its often pretty nihilistic, shallow, and vapid. Let's compare that to Bach or Beethoven's Ode to Joy!
21
I think you may be touching upon a point of your personal taste, that is not conducive to a predictive generalization.
2
I too am a huge lover of classical music, especially Bach and Beethoven. And I detest what passes as Christian rock in many churches that are, indeed, attempting to emulate mass culture in an attempt to get people back into the pews. However nothing beats the genuine joy that comes from a true expression of the Holy Spirit in a charismatic service, often but not always in music. Please do not confuse the counterfeit with the real.
5
Monica,
I recently saw a poster for a "Beatle's Mass" (at an Anglican Church, of course) and thought that would be fun. I love the Beatle's music and would prefer to listen to it than, let's say, a Bach piece in most occasions. But, the question of course is what do the Beatle's have to say that is relevant to Church service? Sure, "all you need is love" is nice and certainly a thing that might be said at Church, but it's a platitude. Insert the word "God" or "Jesus" somewhere in there and it's not much better. Church, in my opinion, is for contemplating the mystery of the world. I just don't think happy-clappy music does that sense of depth justice, even if it's fun.
I recently saw a poster for a "Beatle's Mass" (at an Anglican Church, of course) and thought that would be fun. I love the Beatle's music and would prefer to listen to it than, let's say, a Bach piece in most occasions. But, the question of course is what do the Beatle's have to say that is relevant to Church service? Sure, "all you need is love" is nice and certainly a thing that might be said at Church, but it's a platitude. Insert the word "God" or "Jesus" somewhere in there and it's not much better. Church, in my opinion, is for contemplating the mystery of the world. I just don't think happy-clappy music does that sense of depth justice, even if it's fun.
3
Good at optics! Not convinced there will really be any movement toward making the Church bureaucracy more human. Too bad but not surprising.
4
No biz like showbiz.
10
Why do we need to know whether "his belt was too big for him?" I wish there was less of such itrelevant details in these reports. It looks like NYY had never reported on Bolivia before.
7
People can be such gullible sheep. Would people be posturing like that, arms raised etc., in the privacy of their own homes, 'praising god'? Of course not. These are all learned behaviors...it's the power of peer pressure, the desire to not stand out, to mimic others. That's the only reason these religions all have 'places of worship'...because it ensures the collection of a mass of bodies who they can then control and influence by way of natural human crowd psychology.
13
If religious worship is important to you, who cares how you do it?
7
I think that some people, who do want a genuine, personal experience of God, do indeed pray with raised hands in the privacy of their own homes. In the early days of the Charismatic Catholic movement, it was not not accepted by the mainstream church and only those people who wanted something more than they were getting in the Sunday Mass, dared to show up for these meetings. It was certainly, not, as you suggest, some reaction to peer pressure.
3
Believe me, Catholics have a voice and no one controls us in 2015. We are independent and speak our minds. I do.
4
No doubt Francis is a thoroughly modern Pope; one that is moving the at-times-sclerotic catholic church towards a new millennium.
Refreshingly, what his actions as Pontiff have in common (tolerance for marginalized catholics; a significant encyclical on the environment; now Rock!) is that he is a living example of what religion should be about: openness, inclusion, compassion, a love for living a good and joyful life.
Refreshingly, what his actions as Pontiff have in common (tolerance for marginalized catholics; a significant encyclical on the environment; now Rock!) is that he is a living example of what religion should be about: openness, inclusion, compassion, a love for living a good and joyful life.
14
"That door is closed." Francis on Female Ordination.
He fought against gays in Argentina and Malta. His Secretary
of State just called the Irish Gay vote a 'defeat for humanity'.
Perhaps it's just PR.
He fought against gays in Argentina and Malta. His Secretary
of State just called the Irish Gay vote a 'defeat for humanity'.
Perhaps it's just PR.
5
I honestly don't think that Franics Bergoglio knows what he believes.
The 'new' Francis is in sharp contrast to Jorge Bergoglio.
Or, is he? Is it all smoke and mirrors? South Americans, as in
Bolivia, are combining Catholicism and Paganism. Morales
has been removing Catholicism or combining it with Paganism.
Wild Pentecostalism has some of these traits. Interesting times.
Know your Bible or join the Circus.
The 'new' Francis is in sharp contrast to Jorge Bergoglio.
Or, is he? Is it all smoke and mirrors? South Americans, as in
Bolivia, are combining Catholicism and Paganism. Morales
has been removing Catholicism or combining it with Paganism.
Wild Pentecostalism has some of these traits. Interesting times.
Know your Bible or join the Circus.
2
Religion is the opiate of the masses. I do like this pope above all other popes though.
4
Agreed.
But Francis is better than any past pope; he's almost like a real human being.
And Jesus is the best of the prophets. Too bad, no one, including most Christians, actually believe in the teachings of Jesus.
But Francis is better than any past pope; he's almost like a real human being.
And Jesus is the best of the prophets. Too bad, no one, including most Christians, actually believe in the teachings of Jesus.
3
Jon,
I sincerely hope that Francis is relentless in speaking out.
He is the single greatest threat to the entrenched elites, in a very long time.
"By their fruits they are known".
Not an exact translation, but close enough.
Matthew 7:20
I sincerely hope that Francis is relentless in speaking out.
He is the single greatest threat to the entrenched elites, in a very long time.
"By their fruits they are known".
Not an exact translation, but close enough.
Matthew 7:20
1
The charismatic renewal movement actually began in the early 1960s in the Roman Catholic Church at Duquene and Notre Dame Universities, and shortly afterwards in the mainline Episcopal Church. Other Protestant churches opened to it later on.
3
At times, the charismatic renewal in the RC Church led to a deepening of faith and many good works. At other times, charismatic communities and their leaders assumed a cultic role. Enjoy, but be careful.
1
The Pentecostal Movement began in the early 1900's in LA, I believe. Azuza Street? Long before Catholics and other churches got there.
1
I grew up in a mainstream, liberal Protestant church, where "Holy Rollers" were scorned as ignorant trash. In the early 70's, when I was looking for answers to life problems that my traditional church did not offer I found a charismatic community located in a Roman Catholic church in Florida, founded by Francis McNutt, who was at that time a priest. I was welcomed with open arms, no one cared if was Catholic or not. I found something much deeper and more meaningful than anything I had ever known before.
It pains me frankly, to see so many ignorant comments on the site of a paper that I used to think was read by intelligent, thoughtful, open minded people--people commenting on what they have no experience of. I do agree with the comment of Realist, that, like so many other good things, the charismatic movement was compromised by human personality and "ain't what it used to be" I have not participated in it for a long time but I am very grateful for that precious experience. By the way, Father McNutt was kicked out of the church, for having married but now carries on the work in another form. I am happy to see that this Pope (another Francis) is giving his approval to this form of worship which is obviously giving a lot to many people in South America.
I
It pains me frankly, to see so many ignorant comments on the site of a paper that I used to think was read by intelligent, thoughtful, open minded people--people commenting on what they have no experience of. I do agree with the comment of Realist, that, like so many other good things, the charismatic movement was compromised by human personality and "ain't what it used to be" I have not participated in it for a long time but I am very grateful for that precious experience. By the way, Father McNutt was kicked out of the church, for having married but now carries on the work in another form. I am happy to see that this Pope (another Francis) is giving his approval to this form of worship which is obviously giving a lot to many people in South America.
I
For many, communicating with God can be a visceral, not only cerebral, connection. No faith group should feel limited by the scope of what prayer means.
7
They should be singing John Sebastian's "Do You Believe in Magic."
14
Savviest pope ever - figures out how to compete with the evangelicals and Pentecostals for hearts and minds.
20
So 1500 years of Catholic teaching and dogma were wrong then? LOL.
Francis is all things to all people, because they are bleeding numbers.
Francis is all things to all people, because they are bleeding numbers.
1
Why not? I am bored to death by the typical mass and sermon. I can't believe the church sends priest to Basic and Advanced Snore classes. And those hymns! I always expect the knights of the round table to appear after those almost pastoral hymns.
4
Here's one miracle you won't see.
The Pope will NOT declare that women and men are equal in the eyes of God and the church.
Under Pope Francis women will continue to be second-class subjects which God created to serve me.
The Pope will NOT declare that women and men are equal in the eyes of God and the church.
Under Pope Francis women will continue to be second-class subjects which God created to serve me.
21
You are in for a surprose. Wait and see.
3
Let's wait and see. He's raised many shackles already. He may go for broke. He tangentially embraces Gays, more toxic to orthodoxy than women. Query whether he uses the new Latin American grammatical form of addressing both the feminine and the masculine form of all nouns such as "leaders and leaderesses" , "lawyers and lawyeresses" "girls and boys." Previously only the masculine form was used, the inclusion of the feminine, if applicable, was implied. This change in language, which infiltrates everywhere has accompanied a sweeping change in Latin America regarding the express recognition and inclusion of women in all activities, businesses and public offices. It is another world compared to my youth when women were excluded, degraded in the professional world, and men would not be seen in a car driven by a woman. The linguistic change could be a clue: how anomalous today not to say "priests and priestesses" when this mode is used everywhere else.
2
When the Pope proclaims the equality of all men and women in God's eyes, both heterosexual and homosexual, I'll be surprised for sure.
1
"I'm a rock and roll refugee", Help me Pope, set me free! I LOVE this man! He keeps this up and I may even decide to go back to the church, something I never, ever as a life-long Christian, dreamed I would be saying. Keep on rocking, sir! We have been looking for someone like you for a very, very long time.
14
I'm skeptical of the faith healing, but if all this moves the cause of environmental conservation and economic equality forward, the God bless the Pope.
9
Faith healing is a sham.
But it is well known that one's mental state can influence one's health, at least in the short.
But in the long term we all die.
But it is well known that one's mental state can influence one's health, at least in the short.
But in the long term we all die.
I am not Catholic, but I see the dilemma. Do you stay with tradition and lose the masses going forward, or do you move forward with them - and risk losing the very identity, the core beliefs - that you are trying to preserve?
5
The Jesus movement has been reaching out to the real world since day one, when Paul taught it wasn't just for Jews. People need many gods; OK, give 'em saints! In the West, the poor don't speak Greek; OK, preach and pray in Latin! People want a hero god like Mithras or Osiris who was killed and came back from the dead; OK, we can do that!
What really matters is the basic message, and Francis is forcing the sclerotic old Church organization to listen. He's a beat or two behind where he should be, but give him time.
What really matters is the basic message, and Francis is forcing the sclerotic old Church organization to listen. He's a beat or two behind where he should be, but give him time.
I hope it works, they lost me when they started the folk guitars and the "Kumbayas" back in the 60's. I see here in Florida that all the mega-churches are really big into music.