The response of the Greek people to austerian policy should be loudly seconded by U.S. organizations that fought the
Asian trade pact -also a dimension of neoliberalism.
Expulsion from the European Union for failure to satisfy the masters of the Euro Zone would contribute to further uncertainty regarding the viability of the former.
A Greek option if in or out of the Euro Zone could be to join the BRIC grouping of economies . This could provide eligibility to receive loans to cover Balance of Payments deficits for a drachma currency if out of the Zone from the BRICS multi billion currency fund as well as from their infrastructure bank to aid in reconstructing their economy. Congratulations to the Greek people.!!
Asian trade pact -also a dimension of neoliberalism.
Expulsion from the European Union for failure to satisfy the masters of the Euro Zone would contribute to further uncertainty regarding the viability of the former.
A Greek option if in or out of the Euro Zone could be to join the BRIC grouping of economies . This could provide eligibility to receive loans to cover Balance of Payments deficits for a drachma currency if out of the Zone from the BRICS multi billion currency fund as well as from their infrastructure bank to aid in reconstructing their economy. Congratulations to the Greek people.!!
Greek Austerity: Borrow more than you could ever possibly generate yourselves and don't bother repaying. The idea that the Greeks won't have austerity is obscene! Those folks are in for a world of hurt. Reality Bites!
2
Great move Greece! Now get back to your grandparents' forgotten fields and learn how to sow grains and collect olives!
1
Greece will be fine. The USA wants Greece to remain and to uphold sanctions on russia, end of story.
3
Now the money men will shift their attention to Spain, Italy and Portgual which will leave the Euro fractured. The EU were well aware that the Finance Minister at the time of Greece's entry into the Zone fudged the figures to enter and they have no one to blame but themselves and a lax tax system.
Hegemony over a continent was never going to work with the different cultures and now the Greeks have given Merkel's fiscal jackboot a good kicking along with the IMF and the ECB.
Merkel wakes up this morning with more than the Greek NO to contend with. Good luck Greece.
Hegemony over a continent was never going to work with the different cultures and now the Greeks have given Merkel's fiscal jackboot a good kicking along with the IMF and the ECB.
Merkel wakes up this morning with more than the Greek NO to contend with. Good luck Greece.
5
No democracy, no genus homo.
The essence of the crisis: banksters lent banks' money to plutocrats, or played with plutocrats, and ended losing lots of money. The banks could stay open only if they were given public money by the states. In countries with their own currency, that was no problem: money can be created out of thin air by central banks.
But in Europe, people were told that money would come from austerity. That destroyed the economies. Thus, it was excellent, as far as plutocrats were concerned, as they became even relatively richer. 92% of the aid for “Greece” was actually to replenish money which had been grabbed by plutocrats.
Hopefully that charade will be coming to an end now.
The innocent public ought to owe nothing. Greece should not owe 65 billion to France, and 80 billion to Germany. Just let the ECB write a check in this amount.
Inflation, you say? Don’t worry: let’s recover, let the public recover, all the properties the plutocrats acquired with the money their accomplices the banksters gave them.
To break the cycle, outlaw most “derivative” trading. That will prevent banksters to keep on diverting money to their fellow plutocrats.
https://patriceayme.wordpress.com/2015/07/05/no-democracy-no-genus-homo/
The essence of the crisis: banksters lent banks' money to plutocrats, or played with plutocrats, and ended losing lots of money. The banks could stay open only if they were given public money by the states. In countries with their own currency, that was no problem: money can be created out of thin air by central banks.
But in Europe, people were told that money would come from austerity. That destroyed the economies. Thus, it was excellent, as far as plutocrats were concerned, as they became even relatively richer. 92% of the aid for “Greece” was actually to replenish money which had been grabbed by plutocrats.
Hopefully that charade will be coming to an end now.
The innocent public ought to owe nothing. Greece should not owe 65 billion to France, and 80 billion to Germany. Just let the ECB write a check in this amount.
Inflation, you say? Don’t worry: let’s recover, let the public recover, all the properties the plutocrats acquired with the money their accomplices the banksters gave them.
To break the cycle, outlaw most “derivative” trading. That will prevent banksters to keep on diverting money to their fellow plutocrats.
https://patriceayme.wordpress.com/2015/07/05/no-democracy-no-genus-homo/
3
It's like watching "The Simpsons". They're doing everything wrong.
2
The people have spoken. And as usual the didn't think before opening their mouths...
Someone once called democracy a "vote-yourself-rich" scheme. Well, it seems that notion is alive and kicking. By voting "No" to the last offer (which had already expired anyway) the Greek have made it clear they want to go their own way.
Fine with me!
Once they have a working state (i.e. tax collection, stable pension funds, registry of property) they can re-join the Eurozone - without the help of Goldman-Sachs this time please! Until then please have fun with the "New Drachma", because you will most definitely not get any ELA loans or permission to print more Euro money!
The little people will suffer. Well, maybe they'll learn as well...
Someone once called democracy a "vote-yourself-rich" scheme. Well, it seems that notion is alive and kicking. By voting "No" to the last offer (which had already expired anyway) the Greek have made it clear they want to go their own way.
Fine with me!
Once they have a working state (i.e. tax collection, stable pension funds, registry of property) they can re-join the Eurozone - without the help of Goldman-Sachs this time please! Until then please have fun with the "New Drachma", because you will most definitely not get any ELA loans or permission to print more Euro money!
The little people will suffer. Well, maybe they'll learn as well...
1
The EU nations need to offer a lesser deal to drive the Greeks into the real world.
Wonderful!!! FDR (stimulus) needed, not Reagan (me, myself and I). We, not me. Hope Spain is next. Germany is not superior to the rest of the world, again. If you want to go down the "personal responsibility" road, the Germans were lucky to have the U.S. bail them out and the end of the war. Austerity does NOT work, has never worked.
7
The Greeks pay neither their taxes nor their debts, then dance in the streets to celebrate their financial ineptitude and mock their creditors. So the benefit of keeping Greece as a dance partner to Germany and France is...what exactly? It's time to waltz them to the Eurozone door and lock it behind them.
5
Turkeys voting to abolish Christmas.
1
If you have a choice between a misery forced on you by others and a misery you can choose for yourself, go with the latter.
Especially if it reduces or eliminates predatory corporate profits.
Congrats, Greece!
Especially if it reduces or eliminates predatory corporate profits.
Congrats, Greece!
5
Monetary policy can be very "imaginary." A recent IGM poll of top economists shows that the Greek question is especially tricky – one-third of these economists said they were uncertain about whether "yes" would make the median Greek citizen better off. People like Ms. Triadafillou (who voted "yes," based on her heart and mind) took economic policy too much into consideration.
do the greeks have internal problems, like too many early retirees, too fat of pensions, too many fatcats who dont pay their fair share of taxes (sound familiar?). sure they do......but now eurodweeb blackmail aint one of them. merkle and the rest of her overly rigid banker-pals who take their marching orders apparently from bond holders got a single big greek finger flipped in their face. good. greece will suffer for it, but suffer less than caving in to the snoots. and merkle et al have noone to blame but themselves when the markets blister them even if they think they're tefloned b/c they bought enuf euro bonds. nein. greece will hurt now and be fine in less than 2 years. better hope the chinese or worse putin, dosent come in and float them credit gaining a foothold in europe after the greeks *correctly* dump the euro like the bad penny it is. all while the wall street types laugh til it hurrts b/c they knew the ecb would screw itself....again.
Pride goeth before the fall
President Obama should persuade China to purchase Greece. This would open up Trade Markets for European Countries.
2
Since US is the biggest contributor to IMF funds, we US taxpayers are paying for part of the bailout too!!!
But hey, it probably still have a better ROI than a lot of other stuff that our govt put money into.
But hey, it probably still have a better ROI than a lot of other stuff that our govt put money into.
2
Wow! I thought every little tub of that yogurt was doing good things for the Greek economy...
As in our own Revolution of 1776, the Greeks have now said to their own imperial tormentors: These "bailouts" have been nothing more than taxation without representation! We say NO!"
4
To quote an ancient Greek King and General:
Another such victory over the Romans, and we are undone.
-Pyrhuss
Another such victory over the Romans, and we are undone.
-Pyrhuss
3
Once the IMF agreed that the Greek debt was not sustainable there was no longer any point in voting yes to further austerity.
4
The Greeks are not going gently into that dark night.
4
I can't figure out why all the enthusiasm with the "no" vote-- Greece still owes the money. Maybe it's the thrill of the new jobs created to disassemble the Parthenon and transport it to Berlin, so the European countries can be partially repaid on the debt.
1
Considering that banks make money out of thin air and no real labor, I'll side with any country that puts its flesh and blood into its economy. The Greek people clearly make things. It's the bankers that make NOTHING but debt and misery. I hope this will start a revolution against finance.
7
Europe needs to really, really, really punish them for their stupidity. They deserve to got out of business as a nation. Their banking system will and should crash tomorrow. They are a nation of beggars without even a bowl.
Let their politicians feed them, no one else should.
Let their politicians feed them, no one else should.
4
Greece has crossed their rubicon and will surely find a freer democracy ahead. Now Americans must reclaim our democracy and declare our independence from King Koch and their redstate Republican redcoats.
5
Greek People: "No!!"
European response: "No back at'cha!".
I predict the Greeks are not going to react well when their economy completely implodes.
European response: "No back at'cha!".
I predict the Greeks are not going to react well when their economy completely implodes.
4
Voting yes means death by firing squad; no means death by hanging.
3
Once again Greeks are liberated to enjoy life! Eat, drink, and go merry. But first you have to find a deep pocket to pay for all the fun. Find that god of money!
5
The Greeks have said όχι to austerity which is their right, but I'm afraid they're about to find how really austere life can get.
3
The Greek people finally said "Ouch". Now it is tome to make the rich bankers and investors say the same.
5
Score one against our "Global investors" in New York. Maybe you'll learn some patriotism from the Greeks.
Invest in our own nation............traders!
Invest in our own nation............traders!
5
The picture accompanying this piece says it all: those partying are high-school age girls and boys who have no clue what is at stake here.
Shame on Tsipras; he wanted a NO vote so he can hold on to his job. He couldn't care less about the partying youngsters or other retired folks who may now have to made do with worthless IOU's.
Sad.
Shame on Tsipras; he wanted a NO vote so he can hold on to his job. He couldn't care less about the partying youngsters or other retired folks who may now have to made do with worthless IOU's.
Sad.
5
Aletheia!
I lived for a time in Greece under the military junta in the 70's. Greeks have always hated any type of tyranny and have no problem recognizing it.
Congratulations for your courage, people of Greece. You will land on your feet as you always have.
I lived for a time in Greece under the military junta in the 70's. Greeks have always hated any type of tyranny and have no problem recognizing it.
Congratulations for your courage, people of Greece. You will land on your feet as you always have.
7
Greek Banks are closed, and may go under. Small businesses can't pay their employees and and customers can't pay for goods or services. This is a win? Yippee... A cautionary tale of a government that's lived beyond it's means, and the political difficulties of reigning in spending.
6
Why do we choose to ignore the fact that money is a man-made thing?
2
Marxism is great, until you run out of other peoples money. Congratulations Greece, looks like you've done it!
4
OPA!
Ok, now what?
Ok, now what?
1
I guess no more Greeks bearing gifts, or anybody else bearing gifts for that matter. Hard to imagine that Greece once had a "golden age".
I decided those stupid fool banks who hold my mortgage are not worthy of being paid back. Can I vote no. Does the word deadbeat mean anything anymore?
1
Greece failed because of American and other banks in the Bush Bust of 2008. It's really unfair that the people there are made to suffer for these financial crimes they had nothing to do with.
How would that make you feel, America, if the big banks robbed you to pay for their misdeeds? Oh, wait, that's right, you already know.
How would that make you feel, America, if the big banks robbed you to pay for their misdeeds? Oh, wait, that's right, you already know.
6
The banks or whatever institutions lent money to Greece knew as soon as it left their hands they might not get it back which is why their interest rates appear usurious. Of course if they were not actually usurious they wouldn't have it to lend in the first place
4
This is a case of technocrats vs. democrats.
The Greek people have spoken wisely.
Financial engineering is not social justice.
The Greek people have spoken wisely.
Financial engineering is not social justice.
3
It's troubling that German politicians are so self-assured and so oblivious to the untenable position that ordinary Greeks find themselves in. They show an arrogance, smallness of mind, and lack of the slightest empathy. Maybe Germany has not really changed so much.
2
"Greeks delivered a shocking rebuff to Europe’s leaders on Sunday, decisively rejecting a deal offered by the country’s creditors in a historic vote that could redefine Greece’s place in Europe and shake the Continent’s financial stability."
When I read this article earlier I misread "historic" as "heroic."
When I read this article earlier I misread "historic" as "heroic."
1
If I were a German voter, I would be outraged if my leaders spent another euro on Greece.
4
Heads swell. But the consequences will come and this will be most unpretty.
Greeks are smart.
They just said NO to neoliberal rampaging financial terrorists.
Well done.
They just said NO to neoliberal rampaging financial terrorists.
Well done.
3
Is "Pyrrhic Victory" a common phrase in Greece? I feel like they'll have a great understanding of the concept in a couple of days.
The Greeks must first change your attitude toward money. You need to hire professional economists and analysts. In this country the crisis came about primarily because of indifference to country. I'm glad you made your choice and I hope that he is correct.
Oxi today...nein tomorrow. Syriza will go down in history as one of the most destructive forces to ever hit Greece.
4
Greek vote to reject austerity brings a completely different meaning to the idiom: “It’s Greek to me”!
Is it me or there exists a sense of entitlement among some Greeks? It goes something like this: we gave you democracy, now you pay for our generous pensions and lifestyle.
How many of us in America have a pension to look forward to?
How many of us in America have a pension to look forward to?
Well, it is time to perform Zorba's dance!
The Greeks have made almost no effort at reforming their economy.
The Greek Welfare state is unsustainable.
The Europeans will not give Greece money to fund their bankrupt welfare state.
Greek banks will soon run out of money.
What will the Greek government do ????
They have no plan to fix the economy.
Their plan is to beg & cry for more money from Europe and it will not be forthcoming !!
The smiles on Greek faces will turn to frowns....and poverty & hunger await them.
This is reality.
The Greek Welfare state is unsustainable.
The Europeans will not give Greece money to fund their bankrupt welfare state.
Greek banks will soon run out of money.
What will the Greek government do ????
They have no plan to fix the economy.
Their plan is to beg & cry for more money from Europe and it will not be forthcoming !!
The smiles on Greek faces will turn to frowns....and poverty & hunger await them.
This is reality.
Greeks have shouted out a loud “NO” to their creditors. They have suffered for more than five years under austerity management. Greek economy has contracted twenty-five percent and the unemployment has topped twenty percent, but no relief is on the horizon. The creditors are tightening the screw. Greeks have no choice, but say “NO.”
British economist John Maynard Keynes said in 1931 “ one man’s expenditure is another man’s income.” Austerity is a good word for a household economy, but it is a poison pill to a country’s economy. When everybody tries to save a penny, the economy of a society will be died in the water.
Of cause Greeks have to take some responsibility to reach this point. Greek economy has been mismanaged for a long time. But the prescription from the European Union is deadly wrong. A fetal mistake Greece made is to hand the country’s economic sovereignty to others.
I googled “European Union investments in Greece.” No major event is listed. Without investments no economy can recover from an austerity policy. Weak up, Europeans!
British economist John Maynard Keynes said in 1931 “ one man’s expenditure is another man’s income.” Austerity is a good word for a household economy, but it is a poison pill to a country’s economy. When everybody tries to save a penny, the economy of a society will be died in the water.
Of cause Greeks have to take some responsibility to reach this point. Greek economy has been mismanaged for a long time. But the prescription from the European Union is deadly wrong. A fetal mistake Greece made is to hand the country’s economic sovereignty to others.
I googled “European Union investments in Greece.” No major event is listed. Without investments no economy can recover from an austerity policy. Weak up, Europeans!
4
Even though Greece is its own worse enemy and brought this upon themselves, I'd be shocked if Europe and the U.S. let it fail due to its proximity to the Unrest (ISIS and al qaeda) in the Middle East and North Africa. The last thing you want is a open invitation into Europe. I guess this means "Greece is too close to fail"
I'm loving it! Two lessons will be learned. The Greeks will learn that you can't run your country based on a Ponzi scheme the Greeks will find out there's much more pain ahead! The EU Gets a cold bucket of water splashed in it's face learning not to loan money to deadbeats! Finally 1+1 = 2 in the screwy world we have found ourselves in!
4
You make your bed you lie in it. The ECU will let them twist in the wind for a few days. Let's see how the Greeks who voted NO like getting a slip of paper as an IOU as opposed to a real currency. Greece, if it doesn't come to its senses, will revert back to a barter economy.
The lesson to be learned by this, when you have socialist leaders promising unions the world the world becomes quite messy. Sort of what will happen to the US if another Obama is elected like DeBlasio.
The lesson to be learned by this, when you have socialist leaders promising unions the world the world becomes quite messy. Sort of what will happen to the US if another Obama is elected like DeBlasio.
It's time we all vote "NO" to corrupt politicians, banksters, and corporate deception linked with excessive governmental manipulation! Since when do lobbyists write our legislation!! Time to clean house.
Bernie Sanders 2016
Bernie Sanders 2016
3
Now with the limit of 60 euros per withdrawal, do the banks still collect the 3 euro service fee from a pensioner per each ATM transaction ?
Imagine a divorce where the husband keeps all the money and the wife keeps all the debt, or vice versa.
If Greece gets away with this, then maybe the U.S. should do the same. Economics is so easy when you don't live up to your responsibilities.
Greeks had a chance to influence their fate, and they made that decision. They now have to accept that the rest of Europe has a decision to make, too. Will Greece’s socialism be forever subsidized by others, or will other Eurozone nations focus instead on trying to pay for their OWN socialisms?
Nobody was given much of a choice; but paying for your own free cheese and Band-Aids has gotten too tough all by itself to seriously entertain the notion of paying for someone else’s.
Greek will renounce the debt and its servicing, print up tons of new-drachmas, immediately devalue them thereby destroying the savings of the five people who haven’t already moved euros out of the country and hidden them … and start over. But they’ll start over without the ability to fund the pensions anyway, or the subsidies to the unemployed, or private banks for a long while, or any of the rest of it. It will probably take a generation to re-surface.
And we may find that this was Tsipras’s strategy to remain in power for years. Greeks won’t put up with a market economy, and now won’t further reform their society to be more economically viable. That suggests a socialist government, robbing massively from what rich and upper-middle-class remain to pay what they can by way of necessarily diminished social subsidies. THAT’S the choice Greeks made on Sunday.
There’s a lesson here, somewhere. Oh, I know … TANSTAAFL.
Nobody was given much of a choice; but paying for your own free cheese and Band-Aids has gotten too tough all by itself to seriously entertain the notion of paying for someone else’s.
Greek will renounce the debt and its servicing, print up tons of new-drachmas, immediately devalue them thereby destroying the savings of the five people who haven’t already moved euros out of the country and hidden them … and start over. But they’ll start over without the ability to fund the pensions anyway, or the subsidies to the unemployed, or private banks for a long while, or any of the rest of it. It will probably take a generation to re-surface.
And we may find that this was Tsipras’s strategy to remain in power for years. Greeks won’t put up with a market economy, and now won’t further reform their society to be more economically viable. That suggests a socialist government, robbing massively from what rich and upper-middle-class remain to pay what they can by way of necessarily diminished social subsidies. THAT’S the choice Greeks made on Sunday.
There’s a lesson here, somewhere. Oh, I know … TANSTAAFL.
Germany-aka Merkel- should remember what happened after WWI to their economy, and should be the last country to impose impossible economic hardships on a fellow democracy.
Additionally, wasn't it Germany that defaulted on a billion + loan(s) after WWII and were forgiven?
Additionally, wasn't it Germany that defaulted on a billion + loan(s) after WWII and were forgiven?
4
The Greeks blame the Germans for all their financial sorrow while waving the Greek flag not knowing (?) that the colours, blue and white, are the colours of the kingdom of Bavaria - the first king of modern Greece, Ludwig I, was a prince of Bavaria.
Later kings were also 'northern' i.e. Danish (princes of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg). Prince Philip, the husband of queen Elisabeth II, e.g, is a prince of Denmark AND of Greece.
Somehow when times get tough, and they are in Greece, sic!, people forget their history, blaming countries for their current (financial) situation and ignoring that these countries were the same ones who created the 'modern' Greek state.
Later kings were also 'northern' i.e. Danish (princes of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg). Prince Philip, the husband of queen Elisabeth II, e.g, is a prince of Denmark AND of Greece.
Somehow when times get tough, and they are in Greece, sic!, people forget their history, blaming countries for their current (financial) situation and ignoring that these countries were the same ones who created the 'modern' Greek state.
Retirement at 50...give me a break...if the people of Greece aren't willing to work harder and share the responsibility...let the left wing socialists come up with there own solutions and see how it works out...why should hard working Germans ft the bill...let them work with Putin....Selah
4
It is time for those of us who don't believe in austerity punishment to vacation in Greece with cash.
2
If Merkel forces the banks to absorb the losses will the German and French bankers go after Goldman Sachs for fraud? The Obama administration completely failed to prosecute GS for their part in the 2007 crash. Post crash GS earnings have been through the roof. Maybe this time GS should share some of the pain.
2
Glad its over..no more cash for them..time to rpint your way out of this with the most wanted drachma
1
As in our own Revolution of 1776, the Greeks have now said to their own imperial tormentors: These "bailouts" have been nothing more than taxation without representation! We say NO!"
Congratulations to exercising democracy! Define your way, choose your destiny, dear Greek friends. Wishing you best of luck.
Just don't expect to have your cake and eat it, too. Time to bear the consequences of your choices.
Just don't expect to have your cake and eat it, too. Time to bear the consequences of your choices.
The big question is, how much more punishment will the sadistic bankers inflict on Greece?
Europeans, kick out this lot of parasites. Don't let thé scruples investors run thé politics.
1
Persian hordes have been replaced by European politicians and bankers and Themistocles by Alexis Tsipras, but it is exhilarating to watch the original democracy fight back again.
1
Not a single bailout proposal should be presented to the Greeks. Instead, they should be told to submit one themselves, to be accepted or rejected, without negotiations.
1
I think it speaks to the extreme ess of the Austerity that Greeks were willing to jump into an abyss of the unknown, rather than accept any more of it.
.
Greece was stuck in an endless cycle of debt: borrowing to pay interest. It was originally heir fault, yes, but Greece's creditors have acted more like Payday Lenders when what Greece needed was a Credit Union. I applaud the Hreeks for finally standing up stand saying 'ENOUGH!"
.
Greece was stuck in an endless cycle of debt: borrowing to pay interest. It was originally heir fault, yes, but Greece's creditors have acted more like Payday Lenders when what Greece needed was a Credit Union. I applaud the Hreeks for finally standing up stand saying 'ENOUGH!"
1
To the Greeks
" Thank you for your referendum"
The response
"No more money. Good luck to you. We wish you well"
Sincerely,
Rest of World
" Thank you for your referendum"
The response
"No more money. Good luck to you. We wish you well"
Sincerely,
Rest of World
Tsipras sided with the people instead of the banksters.
Unlike Obama who sided with the banksters.
“My administration,” the president added, “is the only thing between you and the pitchforks.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/20871.html#ixzz3f41yU1IK
Unlike Obama who sided with the banksters.
“My administration,” the president added, “is the only thing between you and the pitchforks.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/20871.html#ixzz3f41yU1IK
It's time for Greece to GO IT ALONE bring back the Drachma!
Greece should never have been part of the Eurozone in the first place.
Greece should never have been part of the Eurozone in the first place.
The Greeks need to learn how to compete.
Given ATM's in Greece will now be referred to as "Dracmatics" (as will photocopiers), suggestions have been made for installing a new national anthem. Suggestions for changing the Greek National Anthem from the Hymn to Liberty to an alternate tune include:
[1] Taps
[2] Suicide is Painless (the theme song from the old M.A.S.H. TV show]
[3] Gimme Shelter (The Rolling Stones)
[4] Beethoven's Fifth Symphony
[5] The Sleeping Beauty (Megadeath)
[6] Today (Smashing Pumpkins)
[7] Doll Parts (Hole)
[8] Copper Red (Sierra Swan)
[9] Prayers for Rain (The Cure)
-and-
[10] Heroin (The Velvet Underground)
Greece never much liked sharing a national anthem with another country (Cyprus), anyway and will likely have no reservations about the remaining nine being made available to Spain, Portugal, and Italy as their departures from the EU come up in turn.
[1] Taps
[2] Suicide is Painless (the theme song from the old M.A.S.H. TV show]
[3] Gimme Shelter (The Rolling Stones)
[4] Beethoven's Fifth Symphony
[5] The Sleeping Beauty (Megadeath)
[6] Today (Smashing Pumpkins)
[7] Doll Parts (Hole)
[8] Copper Red (Sierra Swan)
[9] Prayers for Rain (The Cure)
-and-
[10] Heroin (The Velvet Underground)
Greece never much liked sharing a national anthem with another country (Cyprus), anyway and will likely have no reservations about the remaining nine being made available to Spain, Portugal, and Italy as their departures from the EU come up in turn.
1
What a tremendous relief! Congratulations, Greece!
This is a great day for democracy, and a defeat for capitalism. How fitting that this should occur at the cradle of democracy.
This is a great day for democracy, and a defeat for capitalism. How fitting that this should occur at the cradle of democracy.
1
So only now the NYT reports that Greek oligarchs control the media in Greece and tried to terrorize the Greek people. Why didn't the Times tell us that before? These are the same billionaire shipping owners who along with the european bankers stole all that money for so many years. The Greek people work longer hours for less pay than the germs.
This is a victory for democracy. All honor is due the brave people of Greece for standing up to intimidation.
This is a victory for democracy. All honor is due the brave people of Greece for standing up to intimidation.
2
Hope Hollande and Merkel get rid of Greece in the EU. Let Alexis Tsipras fix the mess his country has allowed itself to get in!
Whatever happened to the debt Germany owed the rest of the world for WW1 and WW2? I believe most of it was forgiven. Is only Germany entitled to having debt forgiven?
3
Modern Western Capitalism no longer fears Democracy. It should. Democracy and Capitalism are opponents. The role of government is to ensure FULL employment, safe housing, equitable education and healthcare, NOT profits. Personal wealth and corporate profits are not inalienable rights.
1
Those celebrating the "victory" against their creditors the Greeks gave themselves must read this article by Michael Lewis about how Greeks got themselves into their situation. A brief anecdote from the article:
"The scale of Greek tax cheating was at least as incredible as its scope: an estimated two-thirds of Greek doctors reported incomes under 12,000 euros a year—which meant, because incomes below that amount weren’t taxable, that even plastic surgeons making millions a year paid no tax at all. The problem wasn’t the law—there was a law on the books that made it a jailable offense to cheat the government out of more than 150,000 euros—but its enforcement. “If the law was enforced,” the tax collector said, “every doctor in Greece would be in jail.” I laughed, and he gave me a stare. “I am completely serious.” One reason no one is ever prosecuted—apart from the fact that prosecution would seem arbitrary, as everyone is doing it—is that the Greek courts take up to 15 years to resolve tax cases."
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010
"The scale of Greek tax cheating was at least as incredible as its scope: an estimated two-thirds of Greek doctors reported incomes under 12,000 euros a year—which meant, because incomes below that amount weren’t taxable, that even plastic surgeons making millions a year paid no tax at all. The problem wasn’t the law—there was a law on the books that made it a jailable offense to cheat the government out of more than 150,000 euros—but its enforcement. “If the law was enforced,” the tax collector said, “every doctor in Greece would be in jail.” I laughed, and he gave me a stare. “I am completely serious.” One reason no one is ever prosecuted—apart from the fact that prosecution would seem arbitrary, as everyone is doing it—is that the Greek courts take up to 15 years to resolve tax cases."
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010
Congratulations to the Greeks! Seventy years after kicking the German occupiers out they have now stood up to Angela Merkel and called her bluff as well as the right-wing "punishment" she represents.
1
Greece has always taught lessons - since Achilles it has shown the way in strength and weakness.
They found a loophole, availed themselves of it, had a great party, but are now in front of the tribunal - will the Gods be merciful or vengeful?
The US has bankruptcy...messy, but exhilarating once done and when it's done, it's done and everyone moves on.
Stretching the tragedy long, doesn't work.
They found a loophole, availed themselves of it, had a great party, but are now in front of the tribunal - will the Gods be merciful or vengeful?
The US has bankruptcy...messy, but exhilarating once done and when it's done, it's done and everyone moves on.
Stretching the tragedy long, doesn't work.
I borrowed money.
I'm not paying it back.
Yay me.
Is this how Greek people roll?
I'm not paying it back.
Yay me.
Is this how Greek people roll?
3
How do you say "hyperinflation" in Greek?
If anything this was a vote of confidence in Tsipras and Varoufakis. Now we know that the EU is negotiating with GREECE not with some "leftist radicals." So let's put away the rhetoric and get down to the negotiating business as Tsipras has offered to do. Don't forget, this also strengthens Tsipras' hand in dealing with reform issues.
3
Greece voted for "freedom." Unfortunately, in this context that "free" means not paying for what you bought. Still, I feel sorry for them. Their future is grim.
3
A character in Thomas Mann's 1924 novel The Magic Mountain suggests a reason as to why Germany will never be able to forgive the Greek debt. Clavdia, a Russian, is speaking to Hans Castorp, a German.
"I find it terribly reassuring," she said, letting the inhaled smoke pour
back out, "to hear that you are not a passionate man. But, then, how
could you be? That would be a degeneration of the species. Passion means
to live life for life's sake. But I am well aware you Germans live
it for the sake of experience. Passion means to forget oneself. But you do
things in order to enrich yourselves. C'est ça. You haven't the least notion how repulsively egoistic that is of you and that someday it may well make you the enemy of humankind." (Tr. Thomas Wood)
"I find it terribly reassuring," she said, letting the inhaled smoke pour
back out, "to hear that you are not a passionate man. But, then, how
could you be? That would be a degeneration of the species. Passion means
to live life for life's sake. But I am well aware you Germans live
it for the sake of experience. Passion means to forget oneself. But you do
things in order to enrich yourselves. C'est ça. You haven't the least notion how repulsively egoistic that is of you and that someday it may well make you the enemy of humankind." (Tr. Thomas Wood)
1
Dear Progressives: this is what happens when you run massive revolving debt and your creditors decide you are no longer creditworthy. Please keep this in mind as you push the USA ever closer to insolvency.
Alexis Tsipras and Bill de Blasio: twins separated at birth, brought to power for the personal amusement of Angelika Merkel and Andrew Cuomo.
How about starting a world crowd funding project to bail out Greece.
1
And the God's punish by granting that which is prayed for.
REMEMBER - every American problem is self-inflicted.
"A whole island pretending to be blind to get benefits, 8,500 who faked being aged over 100 and lawyers who claim to earn just €12,000: New book reveals how Greeks cheated THEMSELVES into ruin"
http://napoleonlive.info/economics/european-affairs-greece-2/
"A whole island pretending to be blind to get benefits, 8,500 who faked being aged over 100 and lawyers who claim to earn just €12,000: New book reveals how Greeks cheated THEMSELVES into ruin"
http://napoleonlive.info/economics/european-affairs-greece-2/
Good for you Greek citizens. You did the right thing and are no longer beholden to the banksters and Ms. Merkel who lack empathy and a long term memory when it comes to remembering how her forebearers had their debt drastically reduced and her country was able to rebuild post World War 11.
I don't understand what Greece is celebrating. They are on the brink of bankruptcy, have alienated their bankers, wasted billions and are about to be kicked out of the big leagues. These people are delusional, instead of borrowing to survive, how about they start earning money the old fashion way, earn it!
3
Ha ha EU should've gone with Turkey instead but too Euro-centric
JUST WHAT THE FED did not deserve but will get - just as it on the brink of destroying the bond market.
Global MONEY WILL RUSH BACK TO SAFETY the US treasuries.
This will compensate just as China is forced to sell.
Plus China getting reserve currency status likely to be delayed.
IN fact a mini financial crisis is JUST THE TICKET FOR THE US!
Global MONEY WILL RUSH BACK TO SAFETY the US treasuries.
This will compensate just as China is forced to sell.
Plus China getting reserve currency status likely to be delayed.
IN fact a mini financial crisis is JUST THE TICKET FOR THE US!
Reminds me of the time I cheered when Mubarak was overthrown. Inshallah, Greece. We're rooting for you.
The Greeks may soon discover that casting their "No" ballot was the easiest part. Why is Premier Tsipras so sure that he will be on stronger footing to dictate his terms? Did he push his people into a foolish gamble? Qui vivra verra. Tomorrow is Monday, the markets are open, but the emergency summit will have to wait until Tuesday. We are dealing with Europe here and it is summertime. Have yourself some Ouzo on ice or a glass of chilled Retsina...
2
Voters spurned an international bailout deal for their ailing economy that would not have changed anything. Just kicked the can and left them dangling for another six months.
"Some countries are born austere, some achieve austerity, and some have austerity thrust upon them."
From the Greeks viewpoint: Most of the debt were used to service loans with absurdly high interest rates. Most of the bonds were held by German and French banks. So its essentially German and French taxpayers enriching banks via the Greek channels. With so little of the debt not used for servicing loans, how can the Greeks begin any meaningful policies to kickstart their economy?
From EU's viewpoint: You knowingly borrowed under these terms and you can't renege now just because you don't feel like paying. This is unfair to the rest of Europe and is setting a bad example for the other debtee countries.
From outsiders' viewpoint: Greeks are the equivalent of the deadbeat friend who shamelessly couch surf and help themselves to the refrigerator.
From EU's viewpoint: You knowingly borrowed under these terms and you can't renege now just because you don't feel like paying. This is unfair to the rest of Europe and is setting a bad example for the other debtee countries.
From outsiders' viewpoint: Greeks are the equivalent of the deadbeat friend who shamelessly couch surf and help themselves to the refrigerator.
3
The Greeks have finally run out of other people's money, just like Maggie said all socialists eventually do.
2
We are all Greeks, now. I am so proud of them for rejecting financial tyranny, my wife and I planning to take our next vacation to Greece.
1
The future of The Left around the world. Informed they may no longer spend other peoples money, they have a tantrum and scream 'NO.' Cut them off and let them figure it out their own.
1
I'm unimpressed with the coverage of this saga by the NYT news department. Every article, including this one, emphasizes the unrealistic, nonsensical view that a no vote may well mean the end of Greece in the EU and their ultimate bankruptcy. It is as if every news article must be passed through an editor sent to the Times by the German Finance Ministry. There has been more descriptively accurate political and economic analysis of this situation in the opinion section of this newspaper, such as Krugman's dead on comments.
3
Let the dominos fall... this could/should be the start of a comprehensive challenge to the global gods of finance....
1
Remember the domino theory? Once upon a time it was applied to south east Asia and justified the Vietnam War, the theory was, that one falling domino would lead to another, then another. Because thats what domino's do, you can have thousands of dominos, all standing tall and upright, all it takes for one to fall to knock all the rest over. So the idea was to keep that all important first domino from falling.
In regards to economic domino's, the first one has fallen
In regards to economic domino's, the first one has fallen
As Joseph de Maistre’s said "Every nation has the government it deserves”, but I hold the opinion Greece deserves better...Alexis Tsipras lives in a fantasy world and seems a worthy successor of king Pyrrhus of Epirus. As a European I can only congratulate him with his Pyrrhic victory and when the party is over this morning, the hangover will be theirs.
There is no free lunch! The time has come to end this farce now. The EU should not accept any further blackmail attempts of this incapable government since we have contributed enough.
The Greek people have made a clear choice, they have burned their bridges, the consequences are all theirs.
There is no free lunch! The time has come to end this farce now. The EU should not accept any further blackmail attempts of this incapable government since we have contributed enough.
The Greek people have made a clear choice, they have burned their bridges, the consequences are all theirs.
3
One more suggestion; if the germans pay 1 million dollars in reparations for every Greek they murdered in WW2 would that not cover the current Greek debt?
Well,since the Grrek government has made zero effort to collect the billions owed in unpaid taxes,it seems the Eurozone has 2 choices: collect the unpaid taxes themselves,or walk away and let Greece face the results of their own choices..
So they spent their way into economic oblivion using other peoples' money and they are content to see their entire economic structure go down the drain, despite creditors' offers to work things out. Smart. What's the wisdom of this? Do they want to be an economic pariah, because that's where this is going. When no more credit is extended and they must live within their means let's see if they are still happy with today's vote.
A single currency without a common taxing district is always a formula for failure.
What if the U.S. Federal government just loaned money to Idaho instead of putting military bases in Idaho and sending federal projects to build roads. Could Idaho pay back Federal loans?
And, of course, the U.S. should give them oil and health supplies amd moe. We did for Germany after WWII. Should we do less for Greece? Call it the Marshall Plan and the Germans won't be able to say a thing. The U.S.A. shouldn't let people starve jus s due to Northern Europe being mean.
What if the U.S. Federal government just loaned money to Idaho instead of putting military bases in Idaho and sending federal projects to build roads. Could Idaho pay back Federal loans?
And, of course, the U.S. should give them oil and health supplies amd moe. We did for Germany after WWII. Should we do less for Greece? Call it the Marshall Plan and the Germans won't be able to say a thing. The U.S.A. shouldn't let people starve jus s due to Northern Europe being mean.
1
How can this article not mention 5 previous Greek defaults on its sovereign debt in the last 200 years including the last one in 1932?
There does seem to be a pattern.
There does seem to be a pattern.
I've not seen so much Germany bashing since today, on this forum. NYT, if this were about black people you would not allow the incendiary remarks but you have no problem publishing hate against Germans.
Be this as it may, Greece is a debtor nation. They are unwilling to make the changes that it takes to bring their country on the right track. Look to Spain. They did it. Only dead-beats want money without lifting a finger. I hope Merkel, Hollande, and other bleeding heart liberals are finally beginning to realize that the billions of Dollars they sent to Greece is money down the drain and that they will send no additional money. Enough already.
Be this as it may, Greece is a debtor nation. They are unwilling to make the changes that it takes to bring their country on the right track. Look to Spain. They did it. Only dead-beats want money without lifting a finger. I hope Merkel, Hollande, and other bleeding heart liberals are finally beginning to realize that the billions of Dollars they sent to Greece is money down the drain and that they will send no additional money. Enough already.
1
I imagine the British and other nations flirting with joining the Eurozone will now see its would be best for themselves and their sovereignty to stick with their own currencies. IMO, the Greek "No" was as much a rejection of Merkel and the Germans as it was a rejection of austerity. Merkel thought she would be able to topple Tsipras, she thought wrong.
2
The banks that made bad loans should have been allowed to fail. Then, there would be no creditor trying to collect on the loans from people who cannot pay. To save the banks the German government took over the bad Greek loans and is now acting as the creditor. The German government should not have put itself in that position.
2
People here are accusing the IMF of making a fortune off of interest payments on their lending to Greece. However, anyone who would take just a few seconds to google their way to this site : http://graphics.wsj.com/greece-debt-timeline/ will quickly learn that the IMF's annual interest rate on their loans to Greece is 1.05% plus a service charge of between 2% and 3% on the principal. Given that Greek government 10-year debt is now about 15% and probably over 30% on short term debt, the IMF's 1.05% interest rate is in fact generous in the extreme.
1
Something to consider: the Irish, Portugese, and Spanish have managed to revive their economies with bailout plans, Greece could not do it. Why are the Greeks unable to fix their economy in spite of billions of dollars of money?
To all those gleefully bashing the bankers foolish enough to lend the Greeks money you will be please to know that they will take a large loss. My advice to them: Cut your losses, write off 100% of the loan and walk away. No restructuring. No more call for austerity. Just walk away from Greece, like a bad divorce. No more talks. No more money. Let the Greeks figure it out by themselves, alone. To those gleeful bank bashers, get some money together and send it to the Greeks. They are going to need it and you will never see that money again.
The people of Greece never saw a dime. All the money went to the bankers in order to prop up the euro which still is overvalued, they were forced to give up pensions , many became homeless, as long as the EU controls the businesses there will be no growth.
2
The Greeks chose to be governed by their own, rather than oligarchs, most from other parts of the EU. I hope the electorate in this country will learn from this example.
A Pyrrhic victory indeed! Not even Tsirpas knows what it means and what to with it. Greeks still can't get but a pittance of their money out of their bank accounts for essentials because the Greek banks are out of money. Tsirpas is going to be a big fish floundering in a dry Greek pond unless he finds a way to work with the rest of Eurpoe.
1
What's really more than strange, a bit unnerving really, is that the hollowness of this referendum is mistaken for significance, and as far as being "terrorized" goes, there's way more blame to be laid at the feet of the Greek media. The Greek media could just as easily have pointed at the EU leadership then themselves and asked, "Would you rather look mean-spirited or ridiculous?" This has nothing to do with socialism, just plain old oligarchic malfeasance and dysfunction.
And having rejected The Judgement of Paris, it would be even better if the People of Greece could sue these European lenders for economic damages. Be as it may, it was pearls before swine that are shining.
The weak party here will not be Greece but the EU. The EU is enslaved to 'political correctness' and their succumbing to sentimentality in place of sound financial policy will prevail in the end.
Same mentality that is destroy one-party strongholds like Chicago and Detroit. The people unreasonably demand what they do not deserve but felt entitled to and were promised by power hungry politicians. Good luck Greece.
2
Greece delivers a democracy lesson to the world. They realize that the future is uncertain with a 'No' vote but democracy, dignity and a call for fair play when it comes to austerity policies and the European Union.
Greeks have migrated to every corner of the earth, and wherever they have setted they have proven themselves to be hard working and contributing members of their societies. Their number one priority was and is to educate their children as they see this as the gateway to prosperity. This ethic was cultivated in their homeland. So to all those that want to criticise Greeks as lazy take a look around at your Greek neighbour in London, Sydney, New York, Berlin before you pass any further judgement.
1
Greece has assets. Harbors for one. China and Russia should be interested in long term leases. As for the oligarchs Onassis et al, a little government takeover won't hurt. The west can't sanction the entire world.
Greeks don't like the Troika of international banks? Find another bank of last resort willing to--and here's the magic word Greece just doesn't seem to understand: LOAN--you hundreds of billions. Greece doesn't seem to understand that banks are not designed to be anyone's best friend. You want their money? Play by their rules or don't cut a deal you'll regret later. They gave Greece money and required the same austerity and protections they required of others. Banks expect to be repaid or at least see some progress over a fairly gracious five year period. Greece had five years to show some kind of reformation of their economy and revenue collecting but have nothing to show for it except pain and suffering. Citizens continue to allow a few well-placed & connected oligarchs run their government, industries and economy. The Communists and anarchists are licking their chops over a possible destabilized Greece. What's going to happen when the tourists stop visiting? Who will Greece turn to then? Turkey?
1
Some commentators evidently value money so highly that they consider being in debt a sin, or a crime. If it were, then you should accuse the Greek politicians of it, not the Greek working people. Why should they and their children spend the rest of their lives in debt slavery to the plutocrats?
2
Time for the EU to force Greece out of the monetary union. Greece is a nation of irresponsible borrowers and untrustworthy negotiating partners. They take, squander and come back hat in hand demanding more.
1
Using the following site, it is interesting to compare the different indicators - things like corporate tax rate, personal income tax, sales tax, etc - between the different countries. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/corporate-tax-rate
In the grand scheme of things- this really doesn't mean much. The DOW will dip tomorrow, but Wall Street has been waiting for this for 5 years and there will be huge financial windfall for many contrarian firms who saw this coming.
The Euro was a flawed idea to begin with; conceived by a banking elite bent on monopolizing lending practices. I imagine Spain will be next and a few more countries to follow. I'm more curious to see how U.S. banks react to American businesses operating in Greece. Is the Wall Street establishment going to "protect its' American interests" abroad? I seriously doubt it.
The Euro was a flawed idea to begin with; conceived by a banking elite bent on monopolizing lending practices. I imagine Spain will be next and a few more countries to follow. I'm more curious to see how U.S. banks react to American businesses operating in Greece. Is the Wall Street establishment going to "protect its' American interests" abroad? I seriously doubt it.
2
The Western world owes Greece a lot. Much more than any debt repayment could equalize. Democracy, the word & the concept. Its poets, philosophers, playwrights, their words still populate our own thoughts, speech & ideals.
Greeks are generous, optimistic & forgiving by nature, but have a good collective memory. Greek stoicism saw them through WWII. Germany & the rest of the banksters predicting Greece's ruin are wrong. Just like the pollsters who predicted the Yes votes would prevail.
Greeks are generous, optimistic & forgiving by nature, but have a good collective memory. Greek stoicism saw them through WWII. Germany & the rest of the banksters predicting Greece's ruin are wrong. Just like the pollsters who predicted the Yes votes would prevail.
Half a loaf is better then no loaf. Where will the Greeks get the money to just feed themselves now? I get it that banks are indeed in many respects users, but the fact that the Greek people defraud their government by not paying taxes or outright lie about what they are entitled to in entitlements is the real problem. So the austerity that Europe wanted the Greeks to impose to pay back the money the took, will not be imposed by force because now NOBODY will loan them any money. You thought that refuges from North Africa were a problem Europe. Wait until the Greek wave of illegals that are going to inundate your shores now.
There is equal blame to go around but you can't not pay taxes, and demand pensions and other entitlements without the tax base or employer paying into pensions to cove it. The chickens have come home to roost. I think the NO vote in the long run will cause more suffering then the yes would have.
There is equal blame to go around but you can't not pay taxes, and demand pensions and other entitlements without the tax base or employer paying into pensions to cove it. The chickens have come home to roost. I think the NO vote in the long run will cause more suffering then the yes would have.
2
A partial solution could be for all the supporters of the Greek people's decision to not honor their commitments to pool together their money and make that fund available to the Greek government. Then their opinions would carry some weight. It's pretty easy to be generous with other people's money, isn't it?
1
The Greeks have twisted the meaning of words like terrorist and blackmail. Black mail is a form of stealing from someone by threats. The EU is offering to lend the Greeks billions of Euros subject to certain conditions, like repayment as well as certain reforms. There is no attempt to steal from the Greeks who are behaving like arrogant panhandlers.
1
I'm raising a glass of ouzo to the brave Greek voters for the most inspiring political news we've had in a very, very long time. By resisting the Troika's blackmail, media manipulation and fear-mongering, ordinary Greek citizens have demonstrated democracy in action for all us. Let's hope their courageous example fuels the aspirations of other Europeans to seek social justice.
1
The bankers of Europe are shaking in their boots. They will try to punish the Greeks people every way they can so that no one else will ever do what Greece did today. Standing up to parasitic bullies always infuriates and terrifies them. God bless the courage of the Greek people. We too have to stand up to the parasitic bullies in our own country.
1
This is the worst aspect of socialism: ordinary people are deluded into believing not only that they have a right to other people's money, but also that by some magic there will always be plenty of other people's money. In this case, the Greeks' delusion is all the more fanciful because the money they covet belongs to people in other countries. To believe that Germans, Austrians, Finns and Dutch will keep sending money is quite daft.
1
Several aspects of the situation were pathetically obvious from the beginning but second worst was the media's casting the Greeks in a bad light when Germany always held all the cards playing them to this unavoidable conclusion. The big question is will Germany continue to pretend it wants Greece to breath while holding a garotte around it's neck.
1
All of this talk about not supporting tax evaders is just that--talk. Talk put out there by the banksters and their allies in the corporate media to try to shift moral culpability from their shoulders--where it belongs--to the Greek people. Greeks have been evading taxes for decades. Then the banksters get involved, just like they did with homeowners here in the US, and suddenly within a matter of a few yeas, Greece has unsupportable debt. QED, what caused the problem, tax evasion or the banksters? Who is morally culpable? QED. PS According to the IRS, US taxpayers either lie about or skip out on $450 billion in taxes every year. So I guess we're not entitled to any economic relief either...
1
watch greece closely.America. We are following the same road. Letting banks and their criminals to get off scott free after swindleing millions to the tune of billions.
Why don't we replace the statue of liberty with on\e of lloyd blankfein?? after Goldman Sachs and its ilk are all that's left of our once great democracy.
We can only hope the we are as brave in the future as the greeks are today because our day is coming too with the corportocracy we live under.
Why don't we replace the statue of liberty with on\e of lloyd blankfein?? after Goldman Sachs and its ilk are all that's left of our once great democracy.
We can only hope the we are as brave in the future as the greeks are today because our day is coming too with the corportocracy we live under.
2
What next? The EU will offer the same terms again. Angella Merkel and her defense minster has strong egos but not enough guts to rise above the fray to resolve this crisis. Unfortunately the human suffering in Greece will continue.
The problem with Tsipras' idea of getting Greece from under water by raising taxes is that there are not many affluent taxpayers left in Greece or that they will bribe their way out of paying taxes. The rest of Eurozone must be stupid to accede to Tsipras' terms
Come tomorrow, banks have no money, and the pensioners cannot draw any more from the ATM's.
If Merkel and Hollande say no to Greece, then there is no option but to bailin the banks with the money that depositors have with the banks, and to issue IOU's.
There are no easy options. It would seem that the over 60% of the Greeks voted NO because that is what Tsipras asked them to do. I do not think that many understood the referendum question or the consequences of voting NO.
#GREXIT
Come tomorrow, banks have no money, and the pensioners cannot draw any more from the ATM's.
If Merkel and Hollande say no to Greece, then there is no option but to bailin the banks with the money that depositors have with the banks, and to issue IOU's.
There are no easy options. It would seem that the over 60% of the Greeks voted NO because that is what Tsipras asked them to do. I do not think that many understood the referendum question or the consequences of voting NO.
#GREXIT
1
Germans should also have a referendum to vote on whether to lend to Greece some more or not. Lemme guess, they’ll vote no too.
A lot of emerging market countries have already done privatization reforms thus I am horrified that the water and utility companies in Greece continue to be government-owned. These are low-hanging fruit free market reforms and yet it is not done.
A lot of emerging market countries have already done privatization reforms thus I am horrified that the water and utility companies in Greece continue to be government-owned. These are low-hanging fruit free market reforms and yet it is not done.
2
A smart move by the Greeks who are tired of the European banks and their
ridiculous austerity policies that don't work and never will. I have a suggestion on who can bailout the Greek government. Let the Koch brothers and the Waltons do it. They have enough money to last them for many, many lifetimes. It would be a good thing if they would share some of the wealth with
the Greeks.
ridiculous austerity policies that don't work and never will. I have a suggestion on who can bailout the Greek government. Let the Koch brothers and the Waltons do it. They have enough money to last them for many, many lifetimes. It would be a good thing if they would share some of the wealth with
the Greeks.
1
What's greece's plan here? Not sure why they are celebrating. greece has nobody to blame but themselves, specifically their government. Germany, the leader of EU are being small minded. I'd say relieve Greece of their EU obligations and let them build their own currency. I have no doubt greece will bounce but it will take a while. That' 11 million people you got, get it down to 3 mil and start building from there. GEt out of debt. Figure out your comparative advantage and rebuild. Have fun.
1
The aspects of austerity and the rejection are easy to understand, but the origins of Greece's economic problem are unclear to me. I wish the NY Times could explain that aspect in better cleareer detail. I am sure that the world-wide recession/depresssion is a cause, but what else is there other than mismanagement, corruption, and/or bad investments. Years ago the times reported on Goldman Sachs involvement in bad deals. This type of information has relevance for many countries, including our own.
2
So, should we really be surprised with this irresponsible and childish vote by the Greek people?
Because, human nature teaches us that for too many it is easier to be a deadbeat than to act as an adult and pay one's debts.
Likewise, human nature also teaches us that when someone opts to be a deadbeat, the adults in the room are not going to inclined to lend that screaming child deadbeat a couple of bucks for a yummy ice cream cone.
Because, human nature teaches us that for too many it is easier to be a deadbeat than to act as an adult and pay one's debts.
Likewise, human nature also teaches us that when someone opts to be a deadbeat, the adults in the room are not going to inclined to lend that screaming child deadbeat a couple of bucks for a yummy ice cream cone.
1
All the self-styled global economists commenting on this article (most of whom couldn't balance their checkbook) are missing the intermediate and long-term results of Greece and the Euro-zone mutually abandoning one another - the US will step in with emergency aid and thus obtain a European colony to finally replace the loss of West Germany. The added bonus? Mediterranean bases of our own for the Navy. Hurrah!
What people do not seem to understand or choose to ignore is that this vote, its message, goes beyond the logistics of failure or success, or money. The vote is symbolic and represents how a democracy functions - unlike here, where the closest we got to a "movement" was the Occupy Wall Street sessions. Americans prefer to be medicated through soap operas and Reality TV shows, whereas Greeks, as much as people try to ridicule them through unsavory stereotypes, actually go out, organize and express (not much of that going on here, their frustration through actual protests. The name for that behavior is Political Activism
These protests have been going on for 5 years, and dammit, that's hard work! To think and then act on your beliefs, and be allowed to do so. That's the definition of Democracy.
And they said: "NO" No more blindly accepting this contingent of Bankers and political buffoons insistence that there is only one way out of this crisis, and that is, to do what they tell you to do. And the people clearly told them, "NO!"
So now it's time to get creative.
Wake up, Folks!
We are rapidly losing our rights here, and our voices have been suppressed - in one way or another.
As for that bridge referred to by one guy in the article - well, that was not a bridge worth saving.
Bravo, Greece!
Long Live Freedom!
These protests have been going on for 5 years, and dammit, that's hard work! To think and then act on your beliefs, and be allowed to do so. That's the definition of Democracy.
And they said: "NO" No more blindly accepting this contingent of Bankers and political buffoons insistence that there is only one way out of this crisis, and that is, to do what they tell you to do. And the people clearly told them, "NO!"
So now it's time to get creative.
Wake up, Folks!
We are rapidly losing our rights here, and our voices have been suppressed - in one way or another.
As for that bridge referred to by one guy in the article - well, that was not a bridge worth saving.
Bravo, Greece!
Long Live Freedom!
3
The troika actually let it be known to voters that an exit from the euro could easily mean expulsion from the EU. They didn't explain why there are different membership rules for the UK. Only tyrants would try to keep a nation at the bottom of a black hole.
4
Restructure the debt and help Greece devise an economic growth plan rather than bleed the future of the country. If nothing else, do it to repay the debt Western Civilization owes to the Greeks.
1
Lots of foolish comments here congratulating the idiots in the Greek government as if they are big heroes for saying no. If the Greeks did not want to pay back the money, their government should have a plan B to get the Drachma back, but they don't. The banks will close and be nationalized, nothing can be imported for months and months, there will be no currency to spend, and it will take months to revive the drachma. So the Greeks will suffer unnecessary hardship - people will die from lack of medicine, despair and unemployment widespread, and general suffering. Good job Tsipras and co! You managed to increase your peoples suffering with no plans for the future except continuing to try and blackmail Europe.
1
One of the problems with Greece is that its citizens don't like to pay their fair share of taxes whether they are large corporations or individual taxpayers. Cheating and defrauding their government seems to be a sport. They don't just need debt restructuring they need to redo their tax laws and strictly enforce them. They literally have to educate their people about how and why taxes are necessary and how they benefit society as a whole. Fair taxes is what makes societies civilized and stable. I hope this crisis will serve as a wake-up call. They have to get their act together.
1
It will not be easy for the people of Greece but relieved they took the courage to keep these financial creditors and economic predators, a trout of wolves, to take a hike. Some of us are watching, we are awake to the fact that a war has been averted. Let a stronger alliance be established between the financial advisers of Greece, Britain and America in restoring confidence and solidarity to our international economy and the creation of jobs for all people.
Great job Greece.
Greece would be no better off had they said voted "Yes". They faced difficulty no matter, but at least know they are fully responsible for their problems and will eventually have to extract themselves form the euro, and the European Union.
There will be hard times in Greece, but in the meantime, if you want to get a cheap getaway to a beautiful country, I know just the place.
Greece would be no better off had they said voted "Yes". They faced difficulty no matter, but at least know they are fully responsible for their problems and will eventually have to extract themselves form the euro, and the European Union.
There will be hard times in Greece, but in the meantime, if you want to get a cheap getaway to a beautiful country, I know just the place.
Wall Street banks and their ilk are largely responsible for looting countries like Greece through the acquiecence of its country's elites and financial insiders. They have escaped the pain and the blood letting. How about allowing the international criminal court to examine the trail of wreckage that Greece is experiencing and fine and prosecute those bankers who are largely responsible for this crisis?
Good for Greece. Having the rich nations suck more juice out of the poor nations was unconscionable. The only reason the rich countries of the EU could afford to be so powerful is that the U.S. forgave their WWII debt and fronted all the costs of defense. Otherwise, Germany would be Greece, only without the charisma.
1
Let Greece pull out of the EU. Let them collect their own taxes to fund their own social networks. The world will not implode. The markets will dip and then recover. And let the investors (the banks) have to eat their losses. Let's go back to banks doing their due diligence when lending. Sometimes the banks loose and have to pay for their bad investments.
3
The decision of the Greek people must be respected, but who can truly say which was their better course? Frankly, the choice they faced was something like choosing between death by hanging and death by legal injection. Either way was filled with poverty, uncertainty and terrible hardship, deserved perhaps by their politicians and elite, but surely not by the poor folks in the street. Right choice, wrong choice? Mostlly they merit deep compassion; I wish them all well.
It is my fervent desire that with this brave step, Greeks will rebuild their economy through value added manufacturing, remain isolated as a national economy, thus proving to the world that a sustainable self-sufficient nation can grow and flourish. Please prove me right and enjoy your new found independence, ironically, the day after we celebrated ours.
In retrospect, "no" was entirely predictable: Greeks are some of the most insecure - and hence most nationalistic - people on the Balkan peninsula. It was to be expected that they would vote for national pride. Now let's see how many groceries national pride will get them at the supermarket. Assuming there's anything on the shelves...
1
We should support the decision of the majority of Greeks, not to continue accepting the imposition of never ending austerity measures. They can't breath. They said : "this stops here". The debt is unpayable. The alternative is perpetual slavery. Hope wins the day. The billionaires tremble with fear.
The Greeks may take it in the shorts in the near term but there's more than a little schadenfreude in knowing that a lot of European bankers -- just as accursedly rapacious as our own Wall Street felons --- will take a big hit, too. While the media has cast this drama as 'Europe Bailing Out the Profligate Greeks,' what the IMF and the finance ministers in Europe are really trying to do is bail out the private banking interests and lenders and themselves, who made really stupid loans, betting on the come -- i.e., a central bank bailout. Surely they couldn't have believed that saddling Greece with crushing austerity terms that destroyed its economy was going to enable the Greeks to pay them back?
When suddenly all their Greek loans go to red on their balance sheets, they will finally have to write off those junk debts to zero and take a big hit to their bottom line. Go Greeks. It will be tough for a while on the drachma but things will get better; until then, eat a tourist for lunch.
When suddenly all their Greek loans go to red on their balance sheets, they will finally have to write off those junk debts to zero and take a big hit to their bottom line. Go Greeks. It will be tough for a while on the drachma but things will get better; until then, eat a tourist for lunch.
1
There's plenty of blame to go around, including bankers who didn't do their jobs and Greeks who wanted something for nothing. The bankers got rewarded for lending money recklessly; the Greeks got early retirements and unsustainable pensions. And the politicians that provided those things got re-elected. It was human nature all around. And we can assign moral blame all around. Now, how about regulations that recognize human greed and compromises that recognize human need.
1
I believe the no vote will make the EU a stronger organization. It may initially send the markets sharply down for reasons of uncertainty but it will shift the discussion toward issues of what each member owes to each other in time of crisis. I am certain that Greeks will pay back what is owed to banks but at a slower pace so lenders will be forced to accept less than expected.
Let's not forget the Greek Nation's complicity in its economic mess...poor tax collection, out of control black market economy, bloated bureaucracy with mismanaged pension obligations, among other things. 6 years of austerity does not make up for the decades of economic irresponsibility. And let's not forget the impact on our global economy from this default. I'm no fan of predatory lenders, we had plenty in the US who contributed to our recent housing crisis. Greeks come to this juncture with "unclean hands", they protest but are equally to blame.
1
Is there anyone who seriously thinks this rebuff won't be followed by the much larger and more important one from the EU? Why Tsipras imagines this will bring the German bankers to their knees us beyond me. What will follow is a forced, chaotic exit from the euro and the immediate mass devaluation of Greek assets.
We are now in Weimar Greece times, where not only financial collapse but political and security concerns will assume an importance in Europe nobody wanted or has been prepared for.
We are now in Weimar Greece times, where not only financial collapse but political and security concerns will assume an importance in Europe nobody wanted or has been prepared for.
1
This is not not a victory over the banks. This is a victory of reckless spending over the taxpayers in the 18 European countries that saved Greece from bankruptcy. People from poor Slovenia Portugal had contributed to the Greek bailouts. Their money is now probably lost.
The Syriza administration has still not manged to tax the many millionaires and billionaires in Greece. Meanwhile the country seals a 500 Million deal with Lockheed Martin for modernized warplanes.
The Syriza administration has still not manged to tax the many millionaires and billionaires in Greece. Meanwhile the country seals a 500 Million deal with Lockheed Martin for modernized warplanes.
1
If the 240 billion euros had been used to help Greece's economy, right away, instead of using to pay back loans Greece owed to international banks, then Greece would have had a better economy and this tyrannical ultimatum issued by the EU would never have happened. Europe has itself to blame, not Greece, for being greedy and mismanaging the opportunity. We should all lock arms in solidarity with Greece. They may pay a bitter price, but they stand for principle. Now, what are we going to do about it?
If the Greeks do not resolve as a nation to alter the decisions and behaviors that led them to this position of indebtedness, how can they continue as a sovereign nation? They seem to be taking the audacious position that they do not have to improve their financial behavior and that they are owed a bailout, or at least a loan to pay the interest on their debt without any resolve or even a plan to pay down the principal amount of their debt. If their elected leaders lied about their debt, it doesn't change things.
1
The situation in Europe has spun out of control and the Germans can no longer control the situation in their heavy handed manner. Spain, with no unsustainable debt and a willingness to impose austerity has an unemployment rate of 23%. How is that sustainable in a modern democracy? What Spain needs to do is spend on public works and put people to work even if it means running a deficit. How dare the Germans prevent them from doing so? putting your currency ahead of your people is horribly cruel. Spain should make its demands heard loud and clear, so should Italy and Portugal, if the common currency does not benefit all then why keep it?
We are told that a large percentage of moneyed Greek people pay little or no tax. And we are told that the oligarchs urged a "yes" vote, potentially exposing their nation to increased austerity demands from their creditors. I suspect the oligarchs and the moneyed people are of one economic class, and those that will suffer most from austerity are of another. Let us hope that calm, fair thinking world leaders now convene to save a democratic nation from its wealthy.
1
You have to hate the predatory EU citizens. They gave Greece 600 billion in gifts such as the cohesion funds, subsidies, and took a haircut (forgave loans). The private banks left in 2010 and the EU took over, propping up 200 billion in Greek bonds on top of that 600 billion in free money. It is wonderful to see 5 million voters in Greece stick it to the 300 million other members of the EU, many of whom are poorer than the average Greek. Go Greece!
1
This is sad, simply sad. But it was sad before the vote even took place.
One can only hope, now that the strong sentiment of Greek voters has been polled, that the principal parties can come back to the table and place their mutual best interests above ego and ideology. Even without the crisis in Greece, Europe finds itself in a parlous state with precious little statesmanship to pull it out of its swamp.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
One can only hope, now that the strong sentiment of Greek voters has been polled, that the principal parties can come back to the table and place their mutual best interests above ego and ideology. Even without the crisis in Greece, Europe finds itself in a parlous state with precious little statesmanship to pull it out of its swamp.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
I am glad that Greeks overwhelmingly voted no but not for the reasons outlined by Prof. Krugman. After this no vote, the ECB and others should cut their losses and kick Greece out of the Euro as they were never going to pay back the loans or mend their profligate ways. Those who think that Greece would rise from the ashes with a devalued drachma and good governance are the same ones who believe that democracy could be made to take root in the Middle East.
1
Greece's exit from the Euro should be expedited. Only then will the Greeks learn how to live within their means and be forced to pay their taxes. The European Union should tax all goods from Greece and put a tax on flights to Greece to pay back its creditors.
1
All of this happened because politicians can't tell even themselves the truth, and always think the next election is more important that the lessons of history. If you force a country's economy to 25% unemployment and take money from poor pensioners to pay back rich foreign bankers, you will generate a social revolt with consequences you will not be able to control. Foreign lenders have known for something like 15 years that money loaned to Greek governments would be blown by economic incompetence and funneled into the pockets of politicians and their buddies, but they kept doing it because the politicians were wealthy capitalists; now that the politicians are middle-class socialists, it's time to teach them a lesson. They knew in the last bailout that the debt was or soon would become unsustainable, but they kicked the can down the road in order not to be the Prime Minister who lost Greece. Pretty much the same level of competence that gave us two world wars.
Americans need to quit crying crocodile tears for the EU and the Eurozone. Europe is an economic competitor. An enemy. For years, Berlin, Paris, and Brussels have aspired to supplant Anglo-American financial world supremacy. Fortunately for us, their project to conquer the world is failing thanks to the efforts of the Greeks in the south and Mr. Putin in the east. Greece will be FAR better off in the long run with a cheap currency. These emergency loans would have done NOTHING to correct to horrendous unemployment situation in Greece, but they certainly would have protected the rest of the Eurozone from the prospect of a competing currency operating within the free-trade area. Berlin and the Germans are our enemies. They and the rest of the Euro-scum showed it when they signed up for the Chinese bank. We should celebrate every one of their defeats.
Greece needs to get out of the euro and print their own dollars. The transition will be painful however Greeks need to take responsibility to control their future. If they stay in the euro Germany will control their future.
Either way a sustainable cost structure will develop, which is going to mean painful cost cutting better Greeks do it to themselves vs being victims.
It's sad these folks are going to have to go through this pain, I hope everyone learns a lesson in responsible budget and spending.
Either way a sustainable cost structure will develop, which is going to mean painful cost cutting better Greeks do it to themselves vs being victims.
It's sad these folks are going to have to go through this pain, I hope everyone learns a lesson in responsible budget and spending.
1
Brilliant Results: Congratulations to the Greek people. My short term wish: restore and devalue the Drachma and let a million western tourists flock to Greece bringing much needed hard cash. In the longer term, compete with the world in terms of exporting wine, olive oil, and fruits. Sell whatever you can to the BRICS nation that have much cheaper currency that Euro and Dollar. Finally, invest in science, technology, and agriculture. Greece will rise, even with a faulty tax and pension system, the creation of Capitalism
What a Greek tragedy. I hear from a lot of Greeks that they blame the politicians for the mess they are in. The politicians maybe to blame, but their spinelessness means they simply do what the Greek people wanted, which is to have a very generous social welfare and lax tax collection. Now the Greek people are continuing on the same course of denial that they must pay for the benefits they receive. Stated bluntly, other EU members aren't in a mood to finance Greek deficit spending, particularly when they don't seem willing to reform. It is really that simple.
1
OK, but now what? So they leave the EU, but then what does Greece do? They have little or no cash on hand. They have no industry, little agro-production, not much to export, etc.
If nothing else, this shows that the EU must take a very good look at the books of any nation wanting to join the EU in the future. Greece's sorry state was pretty much well known when it joined. Greece thought that the EU was a solution to their societal problems, but in reality it was their undoing. In or out of the EU, Greece is in for a world of hurt for the foreseeable future.
If nothing else, this shows that the EU must take a very good look at the books of any nation wanting to join the EU in the future. Greece's sorry state was pretty much well known when it joined. Greece thought that the EU was a solution to their societal problems, but in reality it was their undoing. In or out of the EU, Greece is in for a world of hurt for the foreseeable future.
1
Here's hoping that this is the start of a wholesale rejection of the privatization of wealth and socialization of risk. This is an especially sweet victory for those of us who watched, horrified, as our own government chose to cover Wall Street's losses while leaving Main Street twisting in the wind. Who among us would have voted "yes" to the 2008 bailout? The difference between the U.S. and Greece is that they have a government that is responsive to the needs of the citizenry. This is what democracy looks like.
From the movie Wall St.: Kid, you're on a roll. Enjoy it while it lasts, 'cause it never does. --Hal Holbrook
This is Tsipras' biggest radical victory ever! Twitter is full of pics with his head superimposed on warriors from the movie 300. However, I agree with the comment that the party won't last long. The Greek vote probably sounds like a two year old's No! to the lenders, and they may be perfectly willing to open the door which the Greeks have shown themselves, and let them begin their own national odyssey.
The president and his finance minister are about to find out what it's like to negotiate with rivals who seem willing, but who might really have a different endgame in mind. The creditors could appear conciliatory and ready to hammer out a deal, but how hard would it be to just stall until Greece's July 20 payment comes due? That one is twice as much as Greece failed to pay the IMF June 30, and it's to the more unforgiving European Central Bank.
There's really no need to oppose the supercilious Tsipras and Varoufakis at the bargaining table. Just play along, let the clock tick, and count on this amateurish duo to pay no attention to deadlines. Then blame banking rules for their exit from the Euro. It's too bad, but two can play at the game of obfuscation and delay, and it helps to have all the cards.
This is Tsipras' biggest radical victory ever! Twitter is full of pics with his head superimposed on warriors from the movie 300. However, I agree with the comment that the party won't last long. The Greek vote probably sounds like a two year old's No! to the lenders, and they may be perfectly willing to open the door which the Greeks have shown themselves, and let them begin their own national odyssey.
The president and his finance minister are about to find out what it's like to negotiate with rivals who seem willing, but who might really have a different endgame in mind. The creditors could appear conciliatory and ready to hammer out a deal, but how hard would it be to just stall until Greece's July 20 payment comes due? That one is twice as much as Greece failed to pay the IMF June 30, and it's to the more unforgiving European Central Bank.
There's really no need to oppose the supercilious Tsipras and Varoufakis at the bargaining table. Just play along, let the clock tick, and count on this amateurish duo to pay no attention to deadlines. Then blame banking rules for their exit from the Euro. It's too bad, but two can play at the game of obfuscation and delay, and it helps to have all the cards.
I can't decide who has been more irresponsible here: the lender or the borrower.
Perhaps the most irresponsible party of all is the EU itself, with its zany Euro that some, not all EU members have adopted and that has no real central bank to keep it safe.
More than anyone, the Germans should know the consequences of a failed state laboring under enormous financial constraints. But the lesson they seem to remember is the failed currency lesson, not the failed state lesson that followed it.
Dear Chancellor Merkel: the failed currency has left the building. You are left with the failed state.
The EU is a hoax.
Perhaps the most irresponsible party of all is the EU itself, with its zany Euro that some, not all EU members have adopted and that has no real central bank to keep it safe.
More than anyone, the Germans should know the consequences of a failed state laboring under enormous financial constraints. But the lesson they seem to remember is the failed currency lesson, not the failed state lesson that followed it.
Dear Chancellor Merkel: the failed currency has left the building. You are left with the failed state.
The EU is a hoax.
I hope what is learned is that pouring money into an economy that is operating at full capacity will not grow that economy. Greece is not Germany and even Germany is dependent on increased demand in a world of over production. Our Western economy reached maximum efficiency in the twentieth century, Greece is simply a small paragraph in the denouement of the story of the last four hundred years of the western economy. It is 2015 and this is just another sign that our economic model has past its pull date.
Good riddance. This country is sadly an economic and cultural mess, all of their own doing. Universal dodging of taxes, flaunted, their frequently openly abused retirement and pension system, and poor work ethics, are said epitaphs to a once great country. But, Germany and others made(or anticipated making) money on the loans floated to this weak country, and then kept afloat. The fallout to European, Asian, and American stock markets will occur- and recover.
The real issue is who and when is next- Spain, Italy, Portugal, Eastern Europe? The EU should never have permitted entrance to such weak economies.
The real issue is who and when is next- Spain, Italy, Portugal, Eastern Europe? The EU should never have permitted entrance to such weak economies.
1
Greece should leave the Euro for its own long-term benefit. Their fiscal cultural values are a mismatch with the rest of Europe so their exit would also make the Eurozone stronger. Win-win.
However, the path to Grexit will be neither simple nor painless. It will continue to be a fascinating story that reveals much about human nature.
However, the path to Grexit will be neither simple nor painless. It will continue to be a fascinating story that reveals much about human nature.
With the "No" vote, any remaining Greeks with ambition and means will soon emigrate to countries where there ambition and means are valued. Greece will then devolve into a type of European Somalia, without a functioning central government. Come to think of it, Greek city-states of old will make a resurgence in the Greek islands, while the remainder of the open land will become lawless and ever more dangerous. Sad outcome for the cradle of philosophy, mathematics, and Western democracy, but they brought this misery on themselves. They borrowed the money. It wasn't forced on them to spend.
Syriza and Tsipras came to power to address the immediate humanitarian crisis resulting from imposed austerity: the houses cut off from electricity, the homeless, the hungry, those hungry, homeless and jobless having their benefits cut.
And they are still talking about the humanitarian crisis, rejecting creditor demands to enter an austerity death spiral.
In his remarks following the great rejection of counterproductive austerity by the Greek people, Tsipras repeatedly used the word "sustainable" to describe a necessary deal with creditors, invoking "social solidarity."
Social solidarity was once an American value but is now fallen before plutocracy. Confronted with shameful homelessness and child poverty, the Republican party responds with convulsions of sadism and hate, demanding cuts to school meals and food aid to the hungry, building prisons as their response to poverty. And they dare cloak their viciousness in pseudo-Christian sanctimonious twaddle when Christ taught that when you fail to house the homeless, care for the sick, feed the hungry, you are doing direct harm to God.
The Koch brothers net worth rises a billion a month, enough to buy a party and an election, and the bought party promises to eliminate estate taxes for the Kochs by bashing poor children.
The U.S. should learn something about social solidarity from Syriza. Currently only Bernie Sanders exemplifies a vision for a just society, a return to democracy from plutocracy. Oxi to banksters.
And they are still talking about the humanitarian crisis, rejecting creditor demands to enter an austerity death spiral.
In his remarks following the great rejection of counterproductive austerity by the Greek people, Tsipras repeatedly used the word "sustainable" to describe a necessary deal with creditors, invoking "social solidarity."
Social solidarity was once an American value but is now fallen before plutocracy. Confronted with shameful homelessness and child poverty, the Republican party responds with convulsions of sadism and hate, demanding cuts to school meals and food aid to the hungry, building prisons as their response to poverty. And they dare cloak their viciousness in pseudo-Christian sanctimonious twaddle when Christ taught that when you fail to house the homeless, care for the sick, feed the hungry, you are doing direct harm to God.
The Koch brothers net worth rises a billion a month, enough to buy a party and an election, and the bought party promises to eliminate estate taxes for the Kochs by bashing poor children.
The U.S. should learn something about social solidarity from Syriza. Currently only Bernie Sanders exemplifies a vision for a just society, a return to democracy from plutocracy. Oxi to banksters.
1
Greece wants the social welfare systems of other EU states. Who wouldn't? The price of admission, however, is punishing taxes. Regardless of what one thinks of advanced European social systems, we all can agree that Greece can't (1) skip the tax part, indulging a long-standing culture of corruption and tax evasion (2) pay the social welfare part (hey, I'd like to be a hairdresser who retires at age 55 with a full pension) and (3) blithely borrow to pay for the whole thing.
3
When the banks have no money for their ATMs, when employers have no money to pay their workers, and when the Greeks wake up the the fact that no one really cares abut their 'dignity', it's most likely that hundreds of thousands (millions?) of unemployed Greeks will simply emigrate in search of work. There's no future in Greece. It's only different from Syria or Libya or Honduras insofar as the fact that the Greek public has done this to itself. Intransigience. Pride. Overconfidence. Ignorance. As for the so-called 'leaders' of Greece, the Greeks will decide what to do with them and their idle promises and deception. Unfortunately the tax-dodgers, the 'well-connected', and so on have no doubt spirited their money abroad. They will follow their ill-gotten loot, leaving the old, foolish and gullible to suffer.
1
It's time to understand that the EU beancounter's recipe of austerity, austerity, and more asuterity is not a livable solution, for Greece or any other country.
The Euro zone countries will either need to find a better solution, or else accept the consequences: A peeling off from the economic union of countries like Greece with an educated populace, that will be ready to compete outside of the EU if need be.
The Euro zone countries will either need to find a better solution, or else accept the consequences: A peeling off from the economic union of countries like Greece with an educated populace, that will be ready to compete outside of the EU if need be.
Here's a grossly simplified metaphor that sums up my point-of-view on this situation, based on the information I've received from Western mass media:
If I go down to the street corner and lend a homeless junkie $100K, do I have any reasonable expectation of getting my money back?
An intelligent person would assume that the junkie will never re-pay. Either the European banking system is run by short-sighted morons and greed-headed losers (entirely possible), or there was some other agenda behind these "loans."
Let's say the junkie's grandmother owns a farm that's worth $900K and somehow my loan was structured around grabbing grandma's farm and enslaving the junkie and his whole family into working 24 hours per day with only a few breadcrumbs in compensation. Is that a solid basis for a loan?
We can reasonably conclude that the EU economic system is being run either by incompetents or deranged people with enslavement fantasies, or both.
There is another possibility: we're not receiving enough real information about what happened here to draw a reasonable conclusion.
If I go down to the street corner and lend a homeless junkie $100K, do I have any reasonable expectation of getting my money back?
An intelligent person would assume that the junkie will never re-pay. Either the European banking system is run by short-sighted morons and greed-headed losers (entirely possible), or there was some other agenda behind these "loans."
Let's say the junkie's grandmother owns a farm that's worth $900K and somehow my loan was structured around grabbing grandma's farm and enslaving the junkie and his whole family into working 24 hours per day with only a few breadcrumbs in compensation. Is that a solid basis for a loan?
We can reasonably conclude that the EU economic system is being run either by incompetents or deranged people with enslavement fantasies, or both.
There is another possibility: we're not receiving enough real information about what happened here to draw a reasonable conclusion.
1
And so this endless Greek drama, which is the tragedy of a confused and dishonest people, continues. I like how all of the pictures last week were of worried elderly pensioners standing around waiting for their banks to give them money, but today, the pictures are all of happy, young people celebrating their defiance of European authorities. The Greeks will live to regret this decision, as they are out of options and have no way of recovering their broken economy other than their own self-imposed austerity measures, which will fall disproportionately on their poorest members. We are talking about 25% unemployment numbers in Greece, and few paths forward to any sort of sustaining prosperity. The country is, and wants to continue to be, an international charity case. This is what the left in Greece and America is celebrating. It's like a party celebrating stupidity. Wake up, leftists. This is not the way out of the Greek mess.
5
I am sort of glad that the majority of people of Greece have decided to reject this deal. But what I do not understand is what their PM saying that this does not mean it is a rejection of EU participation of Greece. I hope the EU now does what it needs to and honors the verdict of people of Greece, let them resolve their problem the hard way on their own. I really hope that the EU government decides to remove Greece from the European Union.
1
Greece could be in fairly decent shape if all those fine upstanding Greek citizens in the professional classes such as doctors, engineers, accountants and lawyers paid their taxes, which they do not. The Greek banks could be resuscitated if all those patriotic Greek citizens who sent over 100 billion Euros out of the country over the last five years brought that money back. If the Greeks who have the wherewithal do not pay taxes and ship their money abroad indicating they could care less about their own country, why should the rest of Europe concern themselves?
1
Last year, as icing on the austerity cake, Bankers and Germany demanded an increase in home heating oil tax of 450% in Greece, which was so astronomical that people could not heat their homes.
It was also counterproductive and stupid, since hardly anyone could afford the increase, net taxes collected actually fell from the prior year. People froze for nothing, just as people are suffering with no hope for a better future in endless, wrongheaded austerity.
Greece did its part now. They suffered five brutal years. Now it's our turn to stand up against banker greed and neoliberal tyranny.
I am waiting for President Obama to give Merkel cover to strike a satisfactory deal with Greece. She has stepped in it so deeply at this point that her Parliament may refuse to ameliorate Greece's debt, which is remarkable given that Germany has been forgiven more debt throughout its history (and defaulted from debt several times), that any other country on earth.
President Obama, pick up that phone and help Greece. The world is watching.
It was also counterproductive and stupid, since hardly anyone could afford the increase, net taxes collected actually fell from the prior year. People froze for nothing, just as people are suffering with no hope for a better future in endless, wrongheaded austerity.
Greece did its part now. They suffered five brutal years. Now it's our turn to stand up against banker greed and neoliberal tyranny.
I am waiting for President Obama to give Merkel cover to strike a satisfactory deal with Greece. She has stepped in it so deeply at this point that her Parliament may refuse to ameliorate Greece's debt, which is remarkable given that Germany has been forgiven more debt throughout its history (and defaulted from debt several times), that any other country on earth.
President Obama, pick up that phone and help Greece. The world is watching.
3
Its simple, austerity equals a shrinking economy which in turn requires further austerity. Rather than choosing this death spiral, the Greeks are opting for something different. The recipe for salvation is a combination of inflation, a negotiated settlement with the financiers, and some degree of fiscal restructuring. The challenge of course is how to accomplish the inflationary policy in one country and not in the rest of Europe.
The Greek people have made abundantly clear to the IMF, European Central Bank and the European Commission their election of the Tspairs government meanr an end to their being sold out by poltical and economic elites. No one is more ready to reform their country than the Greek people, and while there is still much to do they will not starve themselves or their children to pay for the greed of foreign banks in over lending to previous administrations.
Chancellor Merkel has reached out for as another path of resolution through France backed by the United States. What is undeniable is the tyranny of austerity is over. The people of Spain should be next to express their will on the question of whether their recovery should continue to be made more punitive than restorative.
This is not only a great day for the people of Greece, but people everywhere left behind in thev worldwide recovery of the few at the expense of the many.
Chancellor Merkel has reached out for as another path of resolution through France backed by the United States. What is undeniable is the tyranny of austerity is over. The people of Spain should be next to express their will on the question of whether their recovery should continue to be made more punitive than restorative.
This is not only a great day for the people of Greece, but people everywhere left behind in thev worldwide recovery of the few at the expense of the many.
2
The idea that expulsion from the Euro is some sort of threat is bizarre. The Euro was a terrible idea, and, while breaking up will be painful in the short term, it has to be done. It's a cliche at this point that currency union in a huge and unequal society only works with significant transfer payments (like from Connecticut to Mississippi), yet Europe continues to cling to this misbegotten single currency.
Monetary autonomy and a rapidly devalued Drachma is the only way back to competitiveness--other than cutting wages until Greece becomes a third world country.
Monetary autonomy and a rapidly devalued Drachma is the only way back to competitiveness--other than cutting wages until Greece becomes a third world country.
1
Today the idea of national sovereignty won. While the Greek people are clearly not ready for Angela Merkel and the members of the "European Central Planning Committee" to dictate their economic future, Europe is equally unprepared to allow the voters of any member country to have a say in their own future. How dare anyone allow the voters to have a say in their own national destiny? Today the Greeks dared, and they have sent a lear message: unless Europe becomes less autocratic, the minute austerity measures are imposed by outsiders other nations will follow Greece's lead, and the Euro will ultimately pay the price.
1
There is no word for "imperfection" in Greek. This simple fact reveals the issue better than the thousands of articles that attempt to do so...and that's coming from a liberal. You can't have your Greece and eat it too.
No one wins with the Greek vote.
Europe cannot possibly fold now, and its taxpayers -who have lent Greeks those billions -will be enraged.
Tsipras has come to the end of his bluffs and epistemological salt mortales. He will negotiate but the referendum tied his hands as well. That means we may be getting to the outcome that no one wants, that evertbody tried to avoid, and that Greeks used as their final bargaining chip.
By winning the poker game - they lost.
Europe cannot possibly fold now, and its taxpayers -who have lent Greeks those billions -will be enraged.
Tsipras has come to the end of his bluffs and epistemological salt mortales. He will negotiate but the referendum tied his hands as well. That means we may be getting to the outcome that no one wants, that evertbody tried to avoid, and that Greeks used as their final bargaining chip.
By winning the poker game - they lost.
1
It is new government and that new government deserves a chance to make changes in there tax system. To sit and blame the new government and put deadlines on them is not my idea of Democracy. Greece needs time to make the the changes needed. You comment is no different than the Republican Party trying to blame President Obama for all the problems that he inherited.
I support the people of Greece and am glad they turned down what is not bigger problem but making a the right choice. It is what Democracy is suppose to be about.
I support the people of Greece and am glad they turned down what is not bigger problem but making a the right choice. It is what Democracy is suppose to be about.
The bail out in 2010 was not for the Greeks. It was for Greece's creditors. The Greek people have been suffering massively. The loan money that Greece receives goes mostly straight back to the banks. Just like the bail out in the US. The banks that made the loans got bailed out. The people who took the loans are left to suffer.
This was pure and simply a vote against the pro-finance powerhouses. The Greeks have said, "We will not starve quietly."
This was pure and simply a vote against the pro-finance powerhouses. The Greeks have said, "We will not starve quietly."
1
Hopefully Greece will no longer be in the Zone and we can move on and leave them to fend for themselves. I'm sick of all of this; it's disturbed and angered me too much.
2
I admire Greeks that held their heads high against iMF and EU demands that essentially are unachievable.
Now, it is time to reflect and do the right things.
Pursue your dreams; be hardworking, be capitalists. No handouts. Work with USA, Japan, china, Russia to improve productivity, tourism.
Best wishes.
Now, it is time to reflect and do the right things.
Pursue your dreams; be hardworking, be capitalists. No handouts. Work with USA, Japan, china, Russia to improve productivity, tourism.
Best wishes.
I am no economist and certainly don't know what is actually prompting Greece's current economic problems. Whether it is Greece where everyone apparently believes in a "free lunch" or China where unregulated markets run amuck, it is obvious that in a "global economy," when one nation gets pneumonia, everyone else catches a cold!
The US has its own Greece, Mississippi and Alabama, maybe we should cut them loose
Interesting when the person said they are not a society of beggars..
What do you think Greece is doing as they have nothing of value to negotiate with.. They are beggars who are demanding more money that they cannot pay back. I say cut them off.
What do you think Greece is doing as they have nothing of value to negotiate with.. They are beggars who are demanding more money that they cannot pay back. I say cut them off.
1
So the Greeks think that they will again be bailed out because other countries do not want another worldwide economic disaster? How long must the world take care of Greece since Greece will not take care of itself? The Greeks want to be on world welfare forever.
1
Congratulations are in order for this showing by the Greek people. The manipulation of its leadership through the temptation of easy money was, for the ECB, certainly like shooting fish in a barrel. But culpability of that sort is shared by all nations. The Greeks are blessed with what are perhaps the most beautiful lands in creation. In the last analysis, these lands belong to them. And the world will have spent more than a century chastising German ambition.
1
Yew, Greece gave a great sign of pride and a rare example of democracy, so the NO vote to the shameful austerity won.
What will happen next, nobody knows.
European Leaders is a doubtful definition, because they have no spine and they follow Ms Merkel as chicks follow their brood-hen, thinking that she knows where is going and what is doing.
Anyway every Leader follow its own Nationalism, as the brood-hen follows its one and its dream to replicate the Bismark's Great Germany dominating Europe.
EU is dead with the Greek vote and the previous EU bullying actions to boycott it, showed that “The King is necked!”, as the story tells.
Now it is time to demolish this house of cards and shut down this useless and costly EU.
Everybody by himself and let win the best, but no more cheat fictions!
What will happen next, nobody knows.
European Leaders is a doubtful definition, because they have no spine and they follow Ms Merkel as chicks follow their brood-hen, thinking that she knows where is going and what is doing.
Anyway every Leader follow its own Nationalism, as the brood-hen follows its one and its dream to replicate the Bismark's Great Germany dominating Europe.
EU is dead with the Greek vote and the previous EU bullying actions to boycott it, showed that “The King is necked!”, as the story tells.
Now it is time to demolish this house of cards and shut down this useless and costly EU.
Everybody by himself and let win the best, but no more cheat fictions!
1
Lending money is a risk. Hence different interest rates.
Creditors should lick their wounds, and skulk away.
Creditors should lick their wounds, and skulk away.
Good for Greece! And while they're at it, they can ask the Germans to return all the treasures they plundered during WWII.
3
Didn't realize how strong the anti-Greece sentiment is here. I suppose it's all Greece's fault? Hm.
The people will always exhibit reason, when they are queried.
There are lessons to be learned as to what is really occuring. What few don't realize is - the trade off would lead to privatization of water, electirictiy, p.o. and all media-not to mention a lot more. Strong support by the Greek voters of XIO (NO) demonstrated the Greek citizens value "Democracy."
Thus, it's not suprising that Sen. Bernie Sanders would make the following statement.
“At a time of grotesque wealth inequality, the pensions of the people in Greece should not be cut even further to pay back some of the largest banks and wealthiest financiers in the world.”
Thus, it's not suprising that Sen. Bernie Sanders would make the following statement.
“At a time of grotesque wealth inequality, the pensions of the people in Greece should not be cut even further to pay back some of the largest banks and wealthiest financiers in the world.”
1
The last five years have been a ridiculous charade of lending European taxpayer money to Greece so that it can pay it´s debts (plus interests!) to European banks and institutions. The time has come for European banks and politicians to tell their clients and taxpayers that they have lost them a ton of money. Greece will have to leave the Euro. The big question now is what is going to happen with the British referendum and Portugal. Is this going to be the beginning of the end for the European Union? Or an important lesson learnt? And are the communist and radical right parties of Europe going to feel empowered and frame this as an extreme left wing/extreme right wing success?. Is this going to help Podemos in Spain and Le Pen in France?
1
I really hope this works out for Greece, but I fear an entire nation jut drank the Kool Aid.
What does life look like for a people that are corrupt and who elect a government of corrupt and/or less than competent ideologues time after time, and who wish to shirk international obligations and ties unless it comes in the form of aid or soft loans? Look next door to Albania for a view of Greece's future, or to Venezuela or to Puerto Rico. Look closer to home, to Greece in 1966 and the living standards then compared to the US or the rest of Europe. There is a very great distance for Greece yet to fall, and all of Europe will be able to hear the falling of Greek tears and the gnashing of Greek teeth.
1
Thank God the Greeks finally saw the light! The White Collar banking mafia in Germany, France, and the U.K. have bled the Hellenes white for years. The Tsipras regime needs to act quickly and unilaterally reduce the face value of all outstanding Greek government bonds to 10 cents on the dollar/euro. Then announce their immediate withdrawal from the euro and return to the drachma. Of course they cannot go it alone. Russia will be happy to furnish cheap or free gas and oil until they can get back on their feet, China can easily provide them with plenty of nearly free clothes, shoes, toys, appliances, electronics, etc. out of the "seconds" in her thousands of factories that are okay but did not meet "quality control", and Argentina, which defaulted a few years ago herself on unpayable debt, and Brazil both are producing huge agricultural surpluses that will keep the 10 million Greeks fed. No one need go without any longer to satisfy the endless blood sucking banksters and crapitalists in western Europe. Long term the Greeks must raise taxes, especially on the wealthy and the shipping lines, cut spending and balance their annual budgets and raise retirement ages and tighten up on disability pensions. They must also rebuild their economy with business innovation and investment from millions of Greeks living worldwide. It will be a long and hard climb, but at least the Greeks will once again be "masters in their own house"--- free, sovereign, and independent, not indebted serfs!
1
It is easier to point a finger at a defaulting country than to open the eyes of those who do not want to see.
The essence of the 'European idea' was to form an association of independent countries, protecting their cultures and yet provoking co-operation between formerly warring nations.
The Greek vote is a resounding condemnation, from the people, that the politicians in this Union have been failing in their duty and their responsibility.
Complain all you like about Greek profligacy, I see little difference between that and German and French abuse of the rules. Complain all you like about poor Greek management, I see little between poor German accounting standards that managed to lose - then rediscover (after getting an ECB bailout for just 1 bank of Euro 175 billion) Euro 55 Billion!
Greece has not been asking that it's debt be cancelled/forgiven - as the Greeks did for Germany in 1953. It is asking that it's population should not suffer longer this mythical God of austerity and that debt repayments be rescheduled to reflect a more sensible appreciation of it's domestic circumstance.
The European Union should be aiding in this scenario, not obstructing. A nation state must have the right to control - or even miscontrol - it's own finances.
It is well to remember pots and kettles, for Germany has itself gone bankrupt more times than Greece. With what expertise,therefore, should such leaders lecture another nation?
The essence of the 'European idea' was to form an association of independent countries, protecting their cultures and yet provoking co-operation between formerly warring nations.
The Greek vote is a resounding condemnation, from the people, that the politicians in this Union have been failing in their duty and their responsibility.
Complain all you like about Greek profligacy, I see little difference between that and German and French abuse of the rules. Complain all you like about poor Greek management, I see little between poor German accounting standards that managed to lose - then rediscover (after getting an ECB bailout for just 1 bank of Euro 175 billion) Euro 55 Billion!
Greece has not been asking that it's debt be cancelled/forgiven - as the Greeks did for Germany in 1953. It is asking that it's population should not suffer longer this mythical God of austerity and that debt repayments be rescheduled to reflect a more sensible appreciation of it's domestic circumstance.
The European Union should be aiding in this scenario, not obstructing. A nation state must have the right to control - or even miscontrol - it's own finances.
It is well to remember pots and kettles, for Germany has itself gone bankrupt more times than Greece. With what expertise,therefore, should such leaders lecture another nation?
4
As is the case with most of life, the results and the interpretation of what they mean is purely in the mind of the individual.
I am sure that to the Greeks this is a victory and for some in other parts of the EU it is seen as a continuing attempt at blackmailing your partners.
In truth it is more the latter than the former.
What this referendum result is at it´s very best is a demonstration of just how far politicians are prepared to take their citizens in an attempt to gain advantage both with their home country electorate as well as in other states where they can garner influence and sympathy. This is not nor can ever be considered a victory.
The EU leaders should reply to Greece´s "no" with their own "no" to further financing and transfers of hard earned responsible EU citizens in other nations that try to remain fiscally responsible and with concern for the EU and currency.
Greece never had a place in the EU and it does not have a place today, moreso given the vote of yesterday.
If the EU members give in to this manipulation they will have allowed Greece to turn what is supposed to be a socialist union of mutual benefit into a transfer system where certain responsible member nations transfer portions at ever increasing levels of their patrimony and savings to those nations that like Greece have determined that their membership pledges and agreements are nothing more that statements of convenience in order to gain access to the treasuries of the other member nations.
I am sure that to the Greeks this is a victory and for some in other parts of the EU it is seen as a continuing attempt at blackmailing your partners.
In truth it is more the latter than the former.
What this referendum result is at it´s very best is a demonstration of just how far politicians are prepared to take their citizens in an attempt to gain advantage both with their home country electorate as well as in other states where they can garner influence and sympathy. This is not nor can ever be considered a victory.
The EU leaders should reply to Greece´s "no" with their own "no" to further financing and transfers of hard earned responsible EU citizens in other nations that try to remain fiscally responsible and with concern for the EU and currency.
Greece never had a place in the EU and it does not have a place today, moreso given the vote of yesterday.
If the EU members give in to this manipulation they will have allowed Greece to turn what is supposed to be a socialist union of mutual benefit into a transfer system where certain responsible member nations transfer portions at ever increasing levels of their patrimony and savings to those nations that like Greece have determined that their membership pledges and agreements are nothing more that statements of convenience in order to gain access to the treasuries of the other member nations.
1
"The vote took place under what some analysts called a financial carpet bombing. The European Central Bank severely limited financial assistance to Greek banks, forcing them to close a week before the referendum, making it hard for retirees to get their money and raising widespread fear here that people would lose their deposits."
Money is the root cause of all problems. It creates poverty, unemployment, austerity, removes freedom and democracy. Yet money is not an object of nature, because it does not grow in a tree, nor it can be mined from underneath the earth. Therefore money is false, free, and abundant for the ECB.
If Greece can run an economy using false money then it is easy to understand that Greece can run the same economy without any kind of money. Now that they have the power of "NO" vote Greece should try to get rid of money altogether and create a money-less economy (MLE). It is easy to understand that the same economy can be maintained in the same way without any kind of money. And yet give full democracy, and any lifestyle anyone wants. MLE will remove poverty completely, there will be no unemployment. Greece should not bring back drachma, if it has to get out of EU. Greece must do it very quickly before EU destroys Greece completely and forces Tsipras out of office.
Money is the root cause of all problems. It creates poverty, unemployment, austerity, removes freedom and democracy. Yet money is not an object of nature, because it does not grow in a tree, nor it can be mined from underneath the earth. Therefore money is false, free, and abundant for the ECB.
If Greece can run an economy using false money then it is easy to understand that Greece can run the same economy without any kind of money. Now that they have the power of "NO" vote Greece should try to get rid of money altogether and create a money-less economy (MLE). It is easy to understand that the same economy can be maintained in the same way without any kind of money. And yet give full democracy, and any lifestyle anyone wants. MLE will remove poverty completely, there will be no unemployment. Greece should not bring back drachma, if it has to get out of EU. Greece must do it very quickly before EU destroys Greece completely and forces Tsipras out of office.
For a couple of years now, Greek products that my family has for decades been purchasing here in America have been disappearing. What's been happening, of course, is that, given the financial situation, banks have not been lending Greek businessmen money for exporting. And now that the banks have closed and will open eventually only on a shaky footing, other exports will not be funded. This isn't good for Greece.
And it isn't good for businesses here in America that do business with Greece. Our favorite Greek "pantopoleion" in Astoria, for example, will finds its shelves empty soon.
Very sad. For many, many years, Greeks were doing pretty well in their way. Easy Euros and easy loans from Europe, however, spoiled a formerly hard-working, pragmatic people. No doubt there was something in it for the Europeans.
And while some Greeks made out like bandits, others didn't. What a terrible pity.
And it isn't good for businesses here in America that do business with Greece. Our favorite Greek "pantopoleion" in Astoria, for example, will finds its shelves empty soon.
Very sad. For many, many years, Greeks were doing pretty well in their way. Easy Euros and easy loans from Europe, however, spoiled a formerly hard-working, pragmatic people. No doubt there was something in it for the Europeans.
And while some Greeks made out like bandits, others didn't. What a terrible pity.
When Germany lie in ruins after World War I, and the victorious Allies demanded reparations that could not be repaid, the currency collapsed, the economy imploded and it led to the rise of political extremism - directly to Hitler and the Nazis.
When Germany lie in ruins after World War II, instead of demands for reparations for damages, the victorious Allies came with an outstretched hand to help rebuild Germany's economy and help restore prosperity for the common good.
Germany was able to repay the reparations they defaulted on from World War I after 92 years, once their economy was strong and healthy.
Greece is suffering through a Depression, with 26% unemployment and an economy 25% smaller since fiscal austerity was imposed after the global financial crash.
Fiscal austerity has never rescued an economy from a Depression. Keynes and FDR showed that in the face of a collapse in domestic demand, fiscal stimulus is warranted.
Aren't the Greek people entitled to the same hand of assistance as a member state of an economic union for a fiscal crisis as the Germans received after attacking much of Europe?
It is possible to ensure economic reforms are made at the same time fiscal and monetary stimulus is provided to people suffering.
Egos need to be put aside and history needs to be remembered for the common good of the EU.
When Germany lie in ruins after World War II, instead of demands for reparations for damages, the victorious Allies came with an outstretched hand to help rebuild Germany's economy and help restore prosperity for the common good.
Germany was able to repay the reparations they defaulted on from World War I after 92 years, once their economy was strong and healthy.
Greece is suffering through a Depression, with 26% unemployment and an economy 25% smaller since fiscal austerity was imposed after the global financial crash.
Fiscal austerity has never rescued an economy from a Depression. Keynes and FDR showed that in the face of a collapse in domestic demand, fiscal stimulus is warranted.
Aren't the Greek people entitled to the same hand of assistance as a member state of an economic union for a fiscal crisis as the Germans received after attacking much of Europe?
It is possible to ensure economic reforms are made at the same time fiscal and monetary stimulus is provided to people suffering.
Egos need to be put aside and history needs to be remembered for the common good of the EU.
I have been a pro-integration European citizen all my life, but if the EU succumbs to Greece's outrageous demands, I cannot help but sympathize with the Eurosceptics. Yes, they voted not to repay their debts - big surprise there, but let's not kid ourselves that this is about European 'solidarity'. Solidarity is a two way street, and Greece has done nothing for the EU. I am not talking about just being the recipient of EU funds here - many nations are net recipients of EU funds just by virtue of being poorer such as the former Communist countries. But let's not forget, Greece cheated into way into joining the Euro to begin with, while the few East European countries that have made it into the Eurozone by now implemented tough financial discipline measures and it will be a slap in the face to all of them and their people, if we now appease Greece thanks to its populist government. Let them exit the Euro and good riddance. Greece cannot be a part of the EU before this government of amateurs and armchair revolutionaries is gone. If any of you who now cheer for Syriza had any intellectual honesty left in you, you would admit that the austerity experienced by Greece is half as much of what other EU member states have been experiencing for years. I sympathize with the Greek people but there is no way on earth any deal with the current government would be seen as fair by the rest of the EU nations. Syriza has to go, or no debt forgiveness.
1
In the past two days, I made two comments in response to Paul Krugman's essay, "Europe's Many Economic Disaster." My comments were extemporaneous "foolish ideas" -- "foolish" but not frivolous, because they are drawn from certain serious thinking. Let me explain. I has been said that in cases of conflict, we often find three sides --"my side," "your side," and the "right side." We also note that a contentious conflict strongly tend to degenerate into acrimonious accusations and exacerbating blaming --
which are not likely to lead to satisfactory outcomes. My comments represent a pragmatic or "problem-solving" approach to the conflict. Let us take the following steps. 1. Get a brutally "objective" account (warts-and-all
Thucydides mode) of the cause and effects of the Greek debt crises; 2. Search for the most promising approaches to the problems;. 3. Do what is right and just. "Right" also in the pragmatic sense of problem-resolution.
Here are some of my other thoughts in connection with the Greek debt
crises. I hope EU and Greece can resolve their issues by doing what is right and just; otherwise the Tsipras Administration may consider playing "the Chinese card" -- a bold move that I have been mulling but hesitate to recommend. "Capitalism" and "Democracy" are not static but dynamic systems. In some countries,"financial" capitalism has become more dominant then industrial capitalism -- with significant consequences on income distribution and employment.
which are not likely to lead to satisfactory outcomes. My comments represent a pragmatic or "problem-solving" approach to the conflict. Let us take the following steps. 1. Get a brutally "objective" account (warts-and-all
Thucydides mode) of the cause and effects of the Greek debt crises; 2. Search for the most promising approaches to the problems;. 3. Do what is right and just. "Right" also in the pragmatic sense of problem-resolution.
Here are some of my other thoughts in connection with the Greek debt
crises. I hope EU and Greece can resolve their issues by doing what is right and just; otherwise the Tsipras Administration may consider playing "the Chinese card" -- a bold move that I have been mulling but hesitate to recommend. "Capitalism" and "Democracy" are not static but dynamic systems. In some countries,"financial" capitalism has become more dominant then industrial capitalism -- with significant consequences on income distribution and employment.
When all is said and done Greece will be the canary in the coal mine. Spain is next. Poetugal to follow....
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For sure Greeks have allot of house cleaning to do, and Tsipras should have used the pressure from abroad to fix some of the chronically broken parts of the Greek system (ie tax collection & rampant fraud of every assistance program in existence). The pressure from the IMF, ECB & EC would have been great cover for politically untouchable reforms. Possibly opportunity lost.
The northern European taxpayers should be furious at Merkel for putting them on the hook with all this bad debt, just to make incompetent bankers whole.
One last note for those that say Greece did not have to borrow all this money. That is actually not true. In the preparations to join the EU and later to adopt the Euro, there were mandates with respect to infrastructure that had to be met. In effect partially unfunded mandates. for Euro spec roads, ports & transportation (think interstate highway system of the USA). While the EU bankrolled a substantial portion, allot had to be done on borrowed money (think state/federal funding for a road project). Add an enormous layer of graft & fraud, and the billions pile up.
.
For sure Greeks have allot of house cleaning to do, and Tsipras should have used the pressure from abroad to fix some of the chronically broken parts of the Greek system (ie tax collection & rampant fraud of every assistance program in existence). The pressure from the IMF, ECB & EC would have been great cover for politically untouchable reforms. Possibly opportunity lost.
The northern European taxpayers should be furious at Merkel for putting them on the hook with all this bad debt, just to make incompetent bankers whole.
One last note for those that say Greece did not have to borrow all this money. That is actually not true. In the preparations to join the EU and later to adopt the Euro, there were mandates with respect to infrastructure that had to be met. In effect partially unfunded mandates. for Euro spec roads, ports & transportation (think interstate highway system of the USA). While the EU bankrolled a substantial portion, allot had to be done on borrowed money (think state/federal funding for a road project). Add an enormous layer of graft & fraud, and the billions pile up.
Good for the Greeks for saying no! For the last several years Merkel, the ECB, and the IMF have forced Greece into enacting "austerity" that hundreds of top economists would only cause the situation to deteriorate, yet they continued. You can't expect someone to go on a diet and start exercising when they have a broken leg and are bleeding profusely! When you do something harmful, in spite of experts saying that it is harmful, it is obvious that harm is the intent.
What I cannot fathom is the disgusting reaction of German politicians of almost all stripes to the Greek "no" vote. Merkel has destroyed Greece with her policy of punishing the 99% for the sins of the 1% while making sure the (German) bankers and the 0.1% always get richer. Germany destroyed Greece the first time during WWII and never repaid. Now we should push that Germany take on the burden of rebuilding Greece, paying every single euro that is owed by Greece because it is about the same amount that Germany still owes Greece in war reparations. That would include taking on the responsibility of helping set up a functioning government that can make the upper middle class and rich in Greece finally pay their part in taxes.
What I cannot fathom is the disgusting reaction of German politicians of almost all stripes to the Greek "no" vote. Merkel has destroyed Greece with her policy of punishing the 99% for the sins of the 1% while making sure the (German) bankers and the 0.1% always get richer. Germany destroyed Greece the first time during WWII and never repaid. Now we should push that Germany take on the burden of rebuilding Greece, paying every single euro that is owed by Greece because it is about the same amount that Germany still owes Greece in war reparations. That would include taking on the responsibility of helping set up a functioning government that can make the upper middle class and rich in Greece finally pay their part in taxes.
1
The Puritanical response by the European Union, increased taxes and pension cuts, seem more punitive than palliative. When the country is facing a 20 percent unemployment rate, how much cash can a tax increase raise? Similarly, cutting pensions won't kickstart the Greek economy in the short term.
Granted, Greece has created this problem, but Draconian austerity won't revive a failing economy any more than laudanum can revive a tuberculosis patient. If the EU really wants to maintain its membership and stature, the rest of the countries need to behave more responsibly than abusive parents, and look for long-term solutions rather than short-term punishment.
Granted, Greece has created this problem, but Draconian austerity won't revive a failing economy any more than laudanum can revive a tuberculosis patient. If the EU really wants to maintain its membership and stature, the rest of the countries need to behave more responsibly than abusive parents, and look for long-term solutions rather than short-term punishment.
What is happening in Europe, in terms of financially responsible countries such as Germany being manipulated into paying for financially irresponsible countries such as Greece, is happening in the US with responsible middle-class families shouldering the burden of an ever enlarging entitlement class. This is a global phenomenon.
The politicians use class warfare and pretend to blame the rich while taking their donor money and putting the burden on the trusting middle-class. Obama-care being a great example. An insurance agent just told me yesterday how a huge percentage of his recent signups are families that were paying insurance and slowly making their way to financial independence. Maybe not the best "Obama insurance" covering pregnancy for men, or sex changes, and drug addiction therapy, but covering major emergencies and adequate for their needs. Now they are all on the expanded free Medicaid. The incentive to become financially independent is gone. Middle-class, the guys and gals in the bracket right above them, will foot that bill.
Let Greece loose. Let them prance and sing in the streets until they realize that the free suckling; the pensions, the social programs, the hedonistic entitlement fantasy; is over. Then the real tantrum will begin. Let them be an example to the world, like the weening of a spoiled child, of what happens when the parent finally says "no."
Maybe there is still some hope for us as well as we are suckled down to a third world country.
The politicians use class warfare and pretend to blame the rich while taking their donor money and putting the burden on the trusting middle-class. Obama-care being a great example. An insurance agent just told me yesterday how a huge percentage of his recent signups are families that were paying insurance and slowly making their way to financial independence. Maybe not the best "Obama insurance" covering pregnancy for men, or sex changes, and drug addiction therapy, but covering major emergencies and adequate for their needs. Now they are all on the expanded free Medicaid. The incentive to become financially independent is gone. Middle-class, the guys and gals in the bracket right above them, will foot that bill.
Let Greece loose. Let them prance and sing in the streets until they realize that the free suckling; the pensions, the social programs, the hedonistic entitlement fantasy; is over. Then the real tantrum will begin. Let them be an example to the world, like the weening of a spoiled child, of what happens when the parent finally says "no."
Maybe there is still some hope for us as well as we are suckled down to a third world country.
1
Hopefully, the Eurozone creditors would relent and propose an acceptable debt relief for Greece with extended repayment, with moderate "haircut" on the principal and close to cost of borrowing for the best creditors in interest so that Greece can realistically meet its obligation. In return Greece ought to accept more taxes on the upper income and wealth groups. It is counterproductive to offer nor accept any further cuts in spending. In fact Eurozone ought to tolerate more, not less spending to raise Greece's GDP and resultant rise in tax revenue.
Kicking Greece out of the Eurozone is dangerous. It may not be any more consequential to Greece than it has already been but it could be disastrous to Eurozone, rest of Europe and a little less so to other countries. Cooler heads must prevail.
Kicking Greece out of the Eurozone is dangerous. It may not be any more consequential to Greece than it has already been but it could be disastrous to Eurozone, rest of Europe and a little less so to other countries. Cooler heads must prevail.
2
The Europeans and IMF completely mismanaged this. The Greeks are bankrupt. So are the Portuguese and Spaniards. No matter how much the bankers want their money, these countries (and some others) will never be in a position to finance, let alone repay their debts. The Europeans need a new policy that takes into consideration the reality of bankruptcy in their midst, or all of these countries may eventually abandon the Euro and repudiate some or all of their debts. They need this new policy...now.
It is way past time for recriminations. Europe needs to consider moving to a two currency zone - the Euro for solvent countries, and a new "Pooro" for bankrupt ones. The Pooro could be set a a fraction of the value of the Euro - maybe 60% - allowing any country that adopted the Pooro to benefit from devaluation immediately, hopefully addressing some of the chronic unemployment brought on by mindless austerity. Euro debt could also be paid in Pooros, providing immediate debt relief as well. However, any country adopting the new currency would have an immediate drop in standard of living equivalent to the difference between the Euro and the Pooro...the price of living beyond one's means for decades, and a disincentive to any solvent country taking the same approach. It is not a perfect solution, but it is better than just stumbling from crisis to crisis.
It is way past time for recriminations. Europe needs to consider moving to a two currency zone - the Euro for solvent countries, and a new "Pooro" for bankrupt ones. The Pooro could be set a a fraction of the value of the Euro - maybe 60% - allowing any country that adopted the Pooro to benefit from devaluation immediately, hopefully addressing some of the chronic unemployment brought on by mindless austerity. Euro debt could also be paid in Pooros, providing immediate debt relief as well. However, any country adopting the new currency would have an immediate drop in standard of living equivalent to the difference between the Euro and the Pooro...the price of living beyond one's means for decades, and a disincentive to any solvent country taking the same approach. It is not a perfect solution, but it is better than just stumbling from crisis to crisis.
As unattractive and erratic as the leaders of Syriza appear to be, and as risky as the referendum ‘No’ vote is, a ‘Yes’ vote would simply have kept Greece at the mercy of a group of predatory lenders led by Germany.
The sloppy governance of Greece began years ago, long before election of the Syriza leaders in January. There are tough times ahead for Greek citizens, but that would also have been true if the vote had gone the other way.
For now, the role of Greece in international trade can be only as a seller, and payment for its goods and services will need be in euros, dollars or pounds. In order to import needed food, medicine and energy, Greece will have to rely upon charitable donations or barter.
The United States, alone and as the dominant force behind the International Monetary Fund, should take the lead in assuring that Greeks receive basic life-sustaining food and other necessities without expectation of repayment. United Nations relief organizations, of course, should be involved.
It will be vital that any attempts by the heavy-handed creditors to seize Greek assets, including goods being exported for sale or barter, be opposed firmly by the United States and by other countries outside the European Union.
This is the only hope for Greece to break out of years of an existence not much better than involuntary servitude. During this difficult period, Greece must attempt the reforms in tax collection and other government operations necessary to build a treasury.
The sloppy governance of Greece began years ago, long before election of the Syriza leaders in January. There are tough times ahead for Greek citizens, but that would also have been true if the vote had gone the other way.
For now, the role of Greece in international trade can be only as a seller, and payment for its goods and services will need be in euros, dollars or pounds. In order to import needed food, medicine and energy, Greece will have to rely upon charitable donations or barter.
The United States, alone and as the dominant force behind the International Monetary Fund, should take the lead in assuring that Greeks receive basic life-sustaining food and other necessities without expectation of repayment. United Nations relief organizations, of course, should be involved.
It will be vital that any attempts by the heavy-handed creditors to seize Greek assets, including goods being exported for sale or barter, be opposed firmly by the United States and by other countries outside the European Union.
This is the only hope for Greece to break out of years of an existence not much better than involuntary servitude. During this difficult period, Greece must attempt the reforms in tax collection and other government operations necessary to build a treasury.
The insincerity of Europe is boundless. The Europeans did not build Europe, we built it. It was built with the sacrifices of and on the backs of the Greeks, for example, just as in the US the unemployed, and those on the dole are the real builders of the economy. Obama told us so.
When Germany invents a new product, or a new manufacturing method, they are doing so based on everything made possible by the Greeks. Germany must share its output with Greece.
The Greeks were right to reject austerity. Europe should continue to pay Greece for all it contributes.
When Germany invents a new product, or a new manufacturing method, they are doing so based on everything made possible by the Greeks. Germany must share its output with Greece.
The Greeks were right to reject austerity. Europe should continue to pay Greece for all it contributes.
Many countries faced a dilemma: They spent more money than they received from selling goods and services. Even with relatively high taxes, there simply wasn't enough money to pay for all the services people needed and wanted. So governments borrowed and borrowed. Alas, borrowing implied you will have future growth that gives you more money to pay what you owe. If the money was not being used for growth, but to expand services, the end result would be not just an inability to pay, but a need to borrow more.
The bills came due, and there was no money to pay them. But before the Euro, not to worry. The government could always print more money. Walla, they triumphantly went back to the creditors and said they have the money to repay. The resulting inflation kept the currency value down and tourists pouring in. Everyone was happy.
With the Euro, the governments' instinct to run to the printing press was no longer an option. So now they are forced to reckon with the underlying reasons they do not have the money to pay their bills. One question is if the country is producing enough, producing efficiently, and if not, why. If it is producing at a maximum feasible level, the next question is why the demand for services far exceeds the country's ability to produce, and what can be done about it.
The bills came due, and there was no money to pay them. But before the Euro, not to worry. The government could always print more money. Walla, they triumphantly went back to the creditors and said they have the money to repay. The resulting inflation kept the currency value down and tourists pouring in. Everyone was happy.
With the Euro, the governments' instinct to run to the printing press was no longer an option. So now they are forced to reckon with the underlying reasons they do not have the money to pay their bills. One question is if the country is producing enough, producing efficiently, and if not, why. If it is producing at a maximum feasible level, the next question is why the demand for services far exceeds the country's ability to produce, and what can be done about it.
If nothing else, dropping out of the Euro and having their own currency will force the Greeks to actually collect taxes and take those actions required to make their safety net sustainable. A separate problem is that the only Greek industries are tourism and olive oil, along with the export of some refined petroleum products. Perhaps a "cheap" drachma will invite foreign investment in some form of manufacturing, so that the entire Greek economy stands a better chance of improvement. Five years of bailouts have not worked, it is time to try a different approach.
1
Truth be told, I expected the vote to go the other way with people voting their fears rather than their anger at the EU and the ECB. If there is a lesson in this debacle, it would have to be that both the EU and the ECB greatly overplayed their hands and offered little more than the standpat position that would simply continue Greece's economic misery indefinitely. In essence, today's referendum simply called the EU's bluff.
As the saying goes, it's time for some adult supervision. That means putting the posturing aside and negotiating a workable outcome in which both sides benefit. It also means that the EU's and ECB's heavy-handed bullying has to stop, and the Tsipras government will need to offer some realistic proposals for repaying a reasonable portion of the outstanding debt. "Reasonable" means, in my view, something that would eliminate Greece's outstanding indebtedness whether through loan forgiveness or repayment within five years of its implementation. Forget about what happened in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Iceland, or elsewhere. Whatever deal the EU strikes with Greece has to succeed on its own merits. "Reasonable" also means that Greece's moneyed classes will need to be made much more accountable by paying their full and fair share of taxes, something which has been conspicuously lacking heretofore.
There also needs to be someone of stature to mediate the dispute, and who can bang heads together if necessary. Someone, say, of George Mitchell's stature.
As the saying goes, it's time for some adult supervision. That means putting the posturing aside and negotiating a workable outcome in which both sides benefit. It also means that the EU's and ECB's heavy-handed bullying has to stop, and the Tsipras government will need to offer some realistic proposals for repaying a reasonable portion of the outstanding debt. "Reasonable" means, in my view, something that would eliminate Greece's outstanding indebtedness whether through loan forgiveness or repayment within five years of its implementation. Forget about what happened in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Iceland, or elsewhere. Whatever deal the EU strikes with Greece has to succeed on its own merits. "Reasonable" also means that Greece's moneyed classes will need to be made much more accountable by paying their full and fair share of taxes, something which has been conspicuously lacking heretofore.
There also needs to be someone of stature to mediate the dispute, and who can bang heads together if necessary. Someone, say, of George Mitchell's stature.
1
Mark Thomason says that Greece or rather the Greek government has a 'primary surplus, that is it gets enough revenue from taxes etc to pay its current obligations exclusive of interest on its debt and repayment of that debt, so it can default on the debt and be just fine. And if Mark were right, he would be right. But I rather suspect that the Greek government does not have a primary surplus. I suspect it is running a rather large primary deficit and therefore it needs more money from somebody to keep on truckin'. And the EU was apparently willing to give i more money provided only that it imposed some measures to shrink that deficit. Greece rejected its offer and so unless the EU sweetens its offer, and I for the life of me can not understand why it would, Greece is going to have to get along with less money to cover deficit and so will have to impose even harsher austerity on its people than the EU was demanding. And if it leaves leaves the euro, and starts printing drachmas, it will probably impose still harsher austerity because those drachmas will soon lose their value relative to the euro and will buy less from the world and probably less from their fellow Greeks. Of course, the Greeks that work in the private sector might be able to raise their prices for their products and their labor to compensate for inflation. But the Greeks that work for the government and the government's pensioners will get hammered. But that is probably as it should be.
The US fought a dearly costly civil war over the concept of what "union" means. If a union can be democratically or civilly undone it does not really exist except for the whim of a current mood. Lincoln realized this. This had made the United States an extremely powerful union. Confederations of the sort contemplated by the former Soviet states just after 1990 or Micronesia or the like, are loose and cosmetic, if anything.
The European Union has always been an lovely ideal. But the idea that thousands of years of linguistic, cultural history to say nothing of civil strife, could be set aside to form a political, economic and ultimately pan-European cultural union is laughable.
Europe is a loose confederation, not one worthy of a currency. Now we learn it the hard way. But I think Europe will learn too that once you embark on a currency you must defend it to the death. In this sense, I think the Greeks have just voted themselves out of the Eurozone. The EU will likely coalesce around the idea of Greece retaining membership in the non-Eurozone groups as a compromise and the Greeks will return with convulsions to the drachma.
Year ahead when people look to today, the vote will be seen as a was a false choice and that Greece, no matter the outcome of a referendum, was on a path of privation, pain, destitution, and squalor for a decade or more. But at least Greece will, after a few months, control its own economic future. But it will never be high-status member of Europe.
The European Union has always been an lovely ideal. But the idea that thousands of years of linguistic, cultural history to say nothing of civil strife, could be set aside to form a political, economic and ultimately pan-European cultural union is laughable.
Europe is a loose confederation, not one worthy of a currency. Now we learn it the hard way. But I think Europe will learn too that once you embark on a currency you must defend it to the death. In this sense, I think the Greeks have just voted themselves out of the Eurozone. The EU will likely coalesce around the idea of Greece retaining membership in the non-Eurozone groups as a compromise and the Greeks will return with convulsions to the drachma.
Year ahead when people look to today, the vote will be seen as a was a false choice and that Greece, no matter the outcome of a referendum, was on a path of privation, pain, destitution, and squalor for a decade or more. But at least Greece will, after a few months, control its own economic future. But it will never be high-status member of Europe.
Greece has acted with courage and sense.
The medicine that the team of doctors led by Dr.Merkel has been administering was poison as the economy started shrinking right from the start.
In a rational world, the doctors would have changed the medicine and also consulted the patient.
Instead, in their eyes, Greece had sinned, should appear in sack cloth and ashes, and the creditor-inflicted suffering was the wages of sin.
Even now, we cannot say that Merkel will recognize her folly. She should remember what Einstein said:
Insanity is doing again and again the same thing and expecting a different result.
The medicine that the team of doctors led by Dr.Merkel has been administering was poison as the economy started shrinking right from the start.
In a rational world, the doctors would have changed the medicine and also consulted the patient.
Instead, in their eyes, Greece had sinned, should appear in sack cloth and ashes, and the creditor-inflicted suffering was the wages of sin.
Even now, we cannot say that Merkel will recognize her folly. She should remember what Einstein said:
Insanity is doing again and again the same thing and expecting a different result.
"Greeks delivered a shocking rebuff"? I don't see what's so shocking about it. It was obvious they would. The EU and the others who funded the ailing country should have learned by past experience that this would be the outcome. And the fact they kept pouring money into it was inane. The austerity measures were too draconian and the Greek economy is unsustainable.
They should hurry up and jetsam Greece and let them find their own way. If countries want to recoup on debts owed, instead of restructuring Greece's debt they should let Greece go back to a devalued drachma and when they start exporting the living daylights out of their products, just slap a tariff on exports from Greece until the debts are paid off.
They should hurry up and jetsam Greece and let them find their own way. If countries want to recoup on debts owed, instead of restructuring Greece's debt they should let Greece go back to a devalued drachma and when they start exporting the living daylights out of their products, just slap a tariff on exports from Greece until the debts are paid off.
What are the chances the Greeks will repay the millions they owe the ExIm Bank. Or are the taxpayers paying that?
The problem isn't Greece; it's how to unwind the euro without plunging the entire world economy into chaos.
Germany bargained hard and smart when the euro was formed and got a framework particularly suited to the German economy; one so suited to the German economy that the only other country that could possibly compete was France and that was only a slight possibility. Whether the euro fails now, or five years from now or twenty or thirty years from now, is a matter of politics and external economics, but it will fail. No system can sustain itself when one player has such a distinct advantage that all the other players are destined to lose.
Greece may be the first, but all the other countries will follow without structural changes that allow individual nations to use their currency to stimulate their economies and make adjustments when necessary. If the euro can't be changed to allow that, or effectively allow it through some transfer mechanism, then it is gone. I don't see how national politics will ever allow that sort of mechanism to be established or operate in a meaningful manner. Then the only question is: when?
Germany bargained hard and smart when the euro was formed and got a framework particularly suited to the German economy; one so suited to the German economy that the only other country that could possibly compete was France and that was only a slight possibility. Whether the euro fails now, or five years from now or twenty or thirty years from now, is a matter of politics and external economics, but it will fail. No system can sustain itself when one player has such a distinct advantage that all the other players are destined to lose.
Greece may be the first, but all the other countries will follow without structural changes that allow individual nations to use their currency to stimulate their economies and make adjustments when necessary. If the euro can't be changed to allow that, or effectively allow it through some transfer mechanism, then it is gone. I don't see how national politics will ever allow that sort of mechanism to be established or operate in a meaningful manner. Then the only question is: when?
1
If Greece agreed to fix itself, the money would come pouring in. Greece has a laughable tax collection system, no reliable way to register property, and a completely outsized military and civil service that is practically the poster child for crony capitalism in a western country. I would give Greece foreign aid, but I wouldn't give them a dime to sustain the current system of government. Unfortunately, by rejecting the EU proposals, the Greeks have doomed themselves to far deeper levels of austerity, but it will be an austerity imposed on them by their country's own inefficiency and corruption.
3
So, for Greek voters, self-interest won out over national interest. Given the choice of keeping all their extravagant state benefits and not having to pay for them versus a Greek economy that is more likely to survive in the future, voters went for the first, much more short-term, option. Greeks now fully deserve the monumental disaster Greece is about to become. Kudos to the Greek government for passing on the blame.
And the band played as Titanic sank. Greece celebrates and no one cares who will pay the bill.
Both sides are right:
- greece can't live on permanent funding of other nations tax-payers
- greece will starve without it
The real problem is, that greece is highly dysfunctional and corrupt, and economics101 don't apply on a corrupt nation. Europe and Greece should have started to make this dystopia work again long ago and not to act like this is just an economic problem. They should have admitted, that this goes deeper than just some liquidity problems. Now both will pay dearly for this procrastination.
And if greece get's their drachma back, and everything get's worse - this is not because they rejected austerity, but because the time was wasted with austerity. That doesn't let the greeks of the hook, they have been considerable consilient in resisting meaningful reforms.
Both sides are right, because they focused on an issue, where they both have a point. Their failure is not on austerity or stimulus, but on challenging the real problems, and to me it looks like nobody will adress this real issue because noone want's an european nation to be called like this - greece is a failed state.
- greece can't live on permanent funding of other nations tax-payers
- greece will starve without it
The real problem is, that greece is highly dysfunctional and corrupt, and economics101 don't apply on a corrupt nation. Europe and Greece should have started to make this dystopia work again long ago and not to act like this is just an economic problem. They should have admitted, that this goes deeper than just some liquidity problems. Now both will pay dearly for this procrastination.
And if greece get's their drachma back, and everything get's worse - this is not because they rejected austerity, but because the time was wasted with austerity. That doesn't let the greeks of the hook, they have been considerable consilient in resisting meaningful reforms.
Both sides are right, because they focused on an issue, where they both have a point. Their failure is not on austerity or stimulus, but on challenging the real problems, and to me it looks like nobody will adress this real issue because noone want's an european nation to be called like this - greece is a failed state.
17
The EU as a kind of United States of Europe was a mistake from the beginning, and trying to make a functioning currency union out of a bunch of countries with vastly differing economies an even bigger one. Greece should never have been admitted; everyone knew it was under false pretenses and ignored the fact. Now the chickens are coming home to roost. Europe should have remained the common market it started out as. On top of everything else, the top-heavy EU bureaucracy with its regulation mania is an enormous waste of taxpayers' money. The greatest beneficiaries are the feckless EU politicians with their fat sinecures.
1
It is new government and that new government deserves a chance to make changes in there tax system. To sit and blame the new government and put deadlines on them is not my idea of Democracy. Greece needs time to make the the changes needed. You comment is no different than the Republican Party trying to blame President Obama for all the problems that he inherited.
I support the people of Greece and am glad they turned down what is not bigger problem but making a the right choice. It is what Democracy is suppost to be about.
I support the people of Greece and am glad they turned down what is not bigger problem but making a the right choice. It is what Democracy is suppost to be about.
Mathias: "Greece is a failed state" - I hope not. They were capable of balancing budget as I understand (without debt payments) as of the beginning of this year.
The problem was that
- there were not enough revenues to cover debt payments
- people of Greece felt squeezed
Greece apparently has reserves in "fixing up the system" (tax collection etc). These reserves, when used, should get them through. But fixing old ways is painful. Unfortunately, they focused on "this is forced on us by evil bankers". OK, not much point in discussing this, it is their sweat versus "bankers money" (actually other's people sweat) - easy to argue ad nauseam. So they will not "fix under dictate".
So now they had chosen to be responsible themselves for their current bills. Might work for the better. They will go through the same (or greater) pain, but all decisions will be theirs, so they might actually implement good governance better and faster. Let's hope.
The downside is huge loss for all EU taxpayers. But maybe the cost of having an EU nation seeing themselves as slaves of "evil bankers of EU" would be long-time worse. And EU/euro rules have to be appropriately corrected so in the future such waste would be less likely to happen.
A positive thing I see is more or less consensus among the rest of EU populace that EU/ECB should not go overboard with free lunches. This consensus I think bodes well for euro.
The problem was that
- there were not enough revenues to cover debt payments
- people of Greece felt squeezed
Greece apparently has reserves in "fixing up the system" (tax collection etc). These reserves, when used, should get them through. But fixing old ways is painful. Unfortunately, they focused on "this is forced on us by evil bankers". OK, not much point in discussing this, it is their sweat versus "bankers money" (actually other's people sweat) - easy to argue ad nauseam. So they will not "fix under dictate".
So now they had chosen to be responsible themselves for their current bills. Might work for the better. They will go through the same (or greater) pain, but all decisions will be theirs, so they might actually implement good governance better and faster. Let's hope.
The downside is huge loss for all EU taxpayers. But maybe the cost of having an EU nation seeing themselves as slaves of "evil bankers of EU" would be long-time worse. And EU/euro rules have to be appropriately corrected so in the future such waste would be less likely to happen.
A positive thing I see is more or less consensus among the rest of EU populace that EU/ECB should not go overboard with free lunches. This consensus I think bodes well for euro.
Well, Greece. Laugh now. Weep later. Sooner or later the euphoria will wear off and the reality will set in -- You're not out of deep water, and your chances of borrowing more are practically null. The victory your claim on this referendum may taste sweet, but it in the end it won't fill your stomachs.
53
They have no need to borrow, except to pay creditors. All of the negotiations were to roll over old debt, not for new debt.
If the creditors won't negotiate with Greece, then they'll lose everything.
Greece will have issues of a new currency and shifting over its banks, but it won't have trouble finding people willing to sell to it for ready cash on current account.
It would be better if it did not come to this, but it is not Greece alone at risk, nor is the greatest risk to Greece.
If the creditors won't negotiate with Greece, then they'll lose everything.
Greece will have issues of a new currency and shifting over its banks, but it won't have trouble finding people willing to sell to it for ready cash on current account.
It would be better if it did not come to this, but it is not Greece alone at risk, nor is the greatest risk to Greece.
40
Given the issues that Argentina has had dealing with non-sovereign hedge funds, Germany and Europe could clearly cause great grief. Greece is clearly not going to be able to just waltz off.
I say, 'flog 'em'! How dare they stand up to the elite European Union and banisters. Five years of crippling austerity~not enough! Yeah, laugh now~cry later!
Austerity is code for bondholders/corporate interests seeking profits with little risk and forcing Greeks to support it through poverty, joblessness and no future. Unless Greece gets out of this moribund Eurozone, they will see generations with no future.
37
Um, I dont think anyone was holding a gun to greece's head when they borrowed billions of dollars. I agree with you though -- better to cut out the dead wood and let Greece fail itself instead of bringing down everyone else.
In other words, you hate savers and retirees who seek good, safe investments and hope they lose money through a Greek default. Nice fellow you.
Now the greeks are masters of their own fate, congratulations.
As one of these "darned austerians" i am really pleased with this outcome.
At least i hope this tiring blame game will stop, and the greeks get a fresh start, outside the Euro.
My saving will be safer, greeks get their stimulus in drachma - everything will be fine.
As one of these "darned austerians" i am really pleased with this outcome.
At least i hope this tiring blame game will stop, and the greeks get a fresh start, outside the Euro.
My saving will be safer, greeks get their stimulus in drachma - everything will be fine.
45
So you are an austerian? Interesting, few people call themselves that. Perhaps you are just taking the standard rhetorical technique of claiming "I'm on the other side, but ..."
Mathias it is not the Greeks that ate your savings but the kleptocratic plutocracy that rules you. Smell the aroma of Greek coffee and wake up.
Decades of politicians buying votes with unfounded promises (sound familiar?). At least the Greeks have knowingly signed up to their demise. They'll 'cancel' a large portion of their debts and just spend their savings and learn nothing. As with Argentina, Detroit and many more to come, it will be the most needy; the most vulnerable who will suffer immeasurably. Deficits cost future generations their future. So sad.
33
And economically just so, so wrong.
Baloney
Yes there was some mismanagement by the govt, and the Greek tax system is not robust with evasion rampant.
But the deals previously provided were the international equivalent of payday loans which keep increasing debt no matter how hard it is to dig out.
Austerity is a proven failure of a policy PERIOD. It has NOT worked in any place it's been tried. Not with nations nor with states in the USA
Yes there was some mismanagement by the govt, and the Greek tax system is not robust with evasion rampant.
But the deals previously provided were the international equivalent of payday loans which keep increasing debt no matter how hard it is to dig out.
Austerity is a proven failure of a policy PERIOD. It has NOT worked in any place it's been tried. Not with nations nor with states in the USA
“We’ve reached our limit,” Mr. Chryssochoidis said. “This is not a society of beggars.”
Yes, but they soon will be. Europe has reached its limit too.
Yes, but they soon will be. Europe has reached its limit too.
51
This is not a Greed VS Europe problem. It is a world problem and climate change is part of it.
Grotesque income inequality is accelerating in Europe. The engine of Capitalism is markets that need a middle class. Europe will return to Feudalism where it crawled from under with a lot of blood and social convulsions. The limit you are talking about is a limit of depravation that Greece is rising against.
Grotesque income inequality is accelerating in Europe. The engine of Capitalism is markets that need a middle class. Europe will return to Feudalism where it crawled from under with a lot of blood and social convulsions. The limit you are talking about is a limit of depravation that Greece is rising against.
1
So Greece has all but defaulted on multiple billions of dollars in loans and they have the nerve to ask for a better deal from the EU? Is the whole country on glue? The best word I can think of to describe this behavior comes from the Greek language itself. Hubris.
54
Gee, and you're saying that without irony? Coming from the USA, that lives off of the hocus pocus of petro dollars and "too big to fail"? You crack me up!
The IMF reported on Thursday that the Greek debt is unsustainable. With the GDP shrinking by 25% because of austerity measures there was simply no way for Greece to repay their debts. Tsipras was insisting on debt negotiations on top of fiscal policy measures. The German leaders have been ideologically stuck and did not want to listen to actual numbers.
Well, with a loud, brave NO, they should decide to stop the threats and the blackmails. It was despicable for the European Central Bank to stop providing liquidity to Greek banks. But fear did not deter Greeks from voting for dignity.
Well, with a loud, brave NO, they should decide to stop the threats and the blackmails. It was despicable for the European Central Bank to stop providing liquidity to Greek banks. But fear did not deter Greeks from voting for dignity.
41
Actually, the IMF is stuck as well. They cannot forgive any debt. Neither can the ECB. So when the IMF asks for debt forgiveness, it is asking other countries to forgive debt so that its own can be repaid in full.
The Greeks borrowed hundreds of billions of dollars so that people could retire at the age of 52 with lofty pensions and unsustainable benefits and you call them courageous for defaulting on their debt? That is sheer lunacy. Greece should be a cautionary tale to the rest of the world, including the U.S. No country can sustain deficit spending forever. In the end, math is math.
If dignity you mean bankruptcy, exit from the euro and the EU, and reverting to their own Greek currency, which they will then have to hyperinflate to pay their bills. Hyperinflation is the opposite of dignity to me, but that is what the Greek people have indirectly chosen. I promise you the EU is not going to fiance the deficit spending Greek state if it refuses to reform.
Concerning the highly polarized nature of the comments, I think the reality is that both sides here are wrong. The Greeks really do have a problem with inefficient, sclerotic government, corruption, and business-hostile red tape. And the European Union really does have a monetary policy which is powerfully regressive, in the sense that it is advantageous for its richer economies and disadvantageous for the weaker ones. To get out of their respective messes, both the EU and Greece would need to change, but as pointed out by the Times ("A Fearless Cutlure Fuels U.S. Tech Giants"), there is very strongly held aversion to admitting mistakes in Europe. This is a Shay's Rebellion moment for the EU, where their economic union is shown to be fundamentally broken. The U.S. states had a learning moment and devised a new and enduring constitutional structure in response to initial mistakes, but I fear Europe is not going to be able to do this. For now, I think we can say that a monetary union which can only offer its "sick men" a choice between permanent depression or economic collapse, is not very well conceived, and reflects both a regressive economic viewpoint as well as a toxic economic chauvinism.
54
Interesting how history repeats itself. The US required a Shay's Rebellion to make the move from a weakly governed confederation to a strong federal union. We were lucky. We had men like Madison, Hamilton, Washington and Jay with the vision and chutzpah to push us the Constitutional Federal Union and overcome the prevailing Montesque Republicanism ideology of the day. Who does the EU have? The EU is a failed structure. The Articles of Confederation failed. So will the EU.
1
One of the best comments I've read tonight! Thank you.
Once the intoxication of adolescent defiance wanes, the hangover for the Greeks will be unbearable. And there will almost certainly be no one there to provide them with pain relief. I predict the hangover begins in earnest later this week when the banks run out of money. Perhaps those here celebrating the Greeks decision could wire them some money. Good luck getting it back.
37
They get repaid with hyperinflated drachma, as will all of Greek's creditors and their pensioners.
What I do not understand is why Syriza has not gone after the tax-cheating oligarchs who control the Greek economy. From what I've read, understanding that the info is murky and to some extent controlled by those same one thousand (1 in 10,000) Greeks, Syriza has done little or nothing to enhance tax collection. They have also apparently done what previous parties in power have done: Hire their own for the cushy public jobs.
I have spent time in Greece, have done some business there. Greece is not a nation-state. For better or for worse (and it is surely worse right now), it is a place inhabited by ten million Greeks, each inhabiting his or her own independent country. This is a blessing and a curse.
I have to think that Greece will now leave the Euro. I cannot imagine a reason why it should leave the European Union, when many other countries are members without the Euro. If it happens, the immediate results will be horrific, but soon the pitiful new Drachma will help Greece regain export ability. However until the country can come together to bring tax collection to normal levels, it will continue to struggle.
Dan Kravitz
Greece is too far in debt to ever pay it off. The first bailout was not of Greece, but of fat, lazy German and French bankers who made loans to a corrupt and bankrupt country without due diligence.
I have spent time in Greece, have done some business there. Greece is not a nation-state. For better or for worse (and it is surely worse right now), it is a place inhabited by ten million Greeks, each inhabiting his or her own independent country. This is a blessing and a curse.
I have to think that Greece will now leave the Euro. I cannot imagine a reason why it should leave the European Union, when many other countries are members without the Euro. If it happens, the immediate results will be horrific, but soon the pitiful new Drachma will help Greece regain export ability. However until the country can come together to bring tax collection to normal levels, it will continue to struggle.
Dan Kravitz
Greece is too far in debt to ever pay it off. The first bailout was not of Greece, but of fat, lazy German and French bankers who made loans to a corrupt and bankrupt country without due diligence.
38
Greeks showed yesterday they're capable of democratic decisions.
Under the same democracy they've implicitly or explicitly approved all those loans.
Double standards much?
There are other countries with the same problems, austerity, corruption etc but even if they blame outside factors, they'll still work on their side of the problem first.
Under the same democracy they've implicitly or explicitly approved all those loans.
Double standards much?
There are other countries with the same problems, austerity, corruption etc but even if they blame outside factors, they'll still work on their side of the problem first.
Same could be said about U.S. I can't wait for this country to face reality, living off of slave labor, financial shenanigans and military bullying. Be careful pointing fingers, cause we have it coming.
The Maastricht treaty requires all EU members to join the euro, other than Britain and Denmark, which negotiated exemptions. The only one who defies this is Sweden. Thus, exactly three of 28 EU members do not have the euro and do not plan on getting it.
Nothing ambiguous about the results of the referendum. It wasn't even close.
Next move is from the EU and all the creditors.
Should be more than interesting.
I feel sorry for the Greeks who are stuck in the middle and will be the worst hit. The creditors can well afford to lose a few billion; their investments in Greece are less than 4% of their total EU investments. They wanted to make a few million euros in interest and on the Greek bonds.
Well, guys, this time you lost.
Now time to go out and screw someone else.
No problem for them. It is what they love doing. Just deduct from your operating expenses and move on.
But the Greek people will really feel the impact while their creditors continue to drink champagne and live the good life.
Next move is from the EU and all the creditors.
Should be more than interesting.
I feel sorry for the Greeks who are stuck in the middle and will be the worst hit. The creditors can well afford to lose a few billion; their investments in Greece are less than 4% of their total EU investments. They wanted to make a few million euros in interest and on the Greek bonds.
Well, guys, this time you lost.
Now time to go out and screw someone else.
No problem for them. It is what they love doing. Just deduct from your operating expenses and move on.
But the Greek people will really feel the impact while their creditors continue to drink champagne and live the good life.
17
"The creditors can well afford to lose a few billion"? What a concept! No wonder Greece is going bankrupt!
What about all of the Greeks who retired at the age of 52 with pensions and benefits most of us Americans can only dream about? The Greeks bought into the government being able to take care of them forever and they never bothered to check the arithmetic.
If the referendum was free and fair, why was it necessary to put the "no" option first?
okay, great. Greece has done stood up to Germany, the IMF, and their creditors. hooray.
i just have this one nagging little question: so where's the money they need to run the country going to come from now?
i just have this one nagging little question: so where's the money they need to run the country going to come from now?
33
They have a primary surplus. That means they have the money to run the country.
What they don't have is enough money to pay back those loans incurred by past governments, much of it purely corrupt.
They can go forward just fine. Plenty of people will be found to sell what they need for ready cash.
The creditors? Well, they lost everything. Unless of course they can now re-negotiate in ways they refused so far.
What they don't have is enough money to pay back those loans incurred by past governments, much of it purely corrupt.
They can go forward just fine. Plenty of people will be found to sell what they need for ready cash.
The creditors? Well, they lost everything. Unless of course they can now re-negotiate in ways they refused so far.
17
I am afraid they don't have the money at least not the banks. The Greeks have withdrawn billions of euros in recents weeks each day from the banks and transferred huge sums to forein accounts. That's why the European Central Bank had to stop pumping billions of euros into Greece each day (without a real political mandate) sooner or longer. Greece has no effective tax collection system and they do not seem to be willing to change that.
Going on like this forever only means supporting the wealthy Greeks. The European Union needs to switch to providing humanitarian support like providing and distributing medicine and food to the needy.
Well just at the moment I have heard news reports that Varoufakis resigns in spite of the glorious Ochi. What a pathetic coward.
Going on like this forever only means supporting the wealthy Greeks. The European Union needs to switch to providing humanitarian support like providing and distributing medicine and food to the needy.
Well just at the moment I have heard news reports that Varoufakis resigns in spite of the glorious Ochi. What a pathetic coward.
The Greek government is running a primary surplus because no one, besides risk-loving hedge funds managers, is willing to lend this government any money. That is, since the government cannot borrow money they must more or less balance their books and, since they need to make payment on their debt, they are by definition running a primary surplus.
Tell the NeoLiberal Banksters to go pound sand. When our Fed was bailing out European banks-including central banks- we did not ask for a pound of flesh like these vultures.
Austerity is, like was recently said by Noam Chomsky, simply class warfare. Tell the Eurocrats to stuff their money and their refugees where the sun does not shine.
Austerity is, like was recently said by Noam Chomsky, simply class warfare. Tell the Eurocrats to stuff their money and their refugees where the sun does not shine.
26
"When our Fed was bailing out European banks-including central banks- we did not ask for a pound of flesh like these vultures."
But that's exactly the point. Greece is not a European central bank. The central banks were good for the money. Greece is a much higher risk borrower, as today's referendum shows.
But that's exactly the point. Greece is not a European central bank. The central banks were good for the money. Greece is a much higher risk borrower, as today's referendum shows.
Blind austerity from creditors and lack of disciple from Greece have collided and created a tragedy for both the EU and Greece. Tsipras will return to Germany/EU and say his people have given him a mandate not to make any more reforms and then demand more money. But Germany and the EU will be forced to say no or else their citizens will be upset (polls heavily favor not giving Greece more money even before the referendum) and other indebted countries will demand forgiveness too. What a sad day.
12
Nobody's giving Greece any money. It's all going to Greece's creditors. This is not a bailout of Greece. It's a bailout of French and German banks.
Dr Krugman on the opinion page provides a beautifully clear and simple explanation of what Greece ought to do next:
"Imagine, for a moment, that Greece had never adopted the euro, that it had merely fixed the value of the drachma in terms of euros. What would basic economic analysis say it should do now? The answer, overwhelmingly, would be that it should devalue — let the drachma’s value drop . . . the biggest costs of euro exit have been paid. Why, then, not go for the benefits?"
I can't say if those in charge will find the courage to go for it this way, but it seems very clear they should.
"Imagine, for a moment, that Greece had never adopted the euro, that it had merely fixed the value of the drachma in terms of euros. What would basic economic analysis say it should do now? The answer, overwhelmingly, would be that it should devalue — let the drachma’s value drop . . . the biggest costs of euro exit have been paid. Why, then, not go for the benefits?"
I can't say if those in charge will find the courage to go for it this way, but it seems very clear they should.
22
Krugman[1] is vague about where those drachmas would come from (and "a printing press" is not the answer). His examples of Iceland and Argentina are not entirely relevant, because both countries had their own currencies.
[1] Ending Greece’s Bleeding
Paul Krugman
JULY 5, 2015
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/06/opinion/paul-krugman-ending-greeces-bl...
[1] Ending Greece’s Bleeding
Paul Krugman
JULY 5, 2015
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/06/opinion/paul-krugman-ending-greeces-bl...
Then again all imports will skyrocket in price.
The current Greek drama is a tragic yet valuable lesson for all the democratic nations of the world. Only balanced – give and take solutions will even come close to solving complex socio-economic problems like this. The Greek nation clearly had indulged in ruinous spending and even blatant corruption (such as rampant tax evasion by the wealthy). This, however, doesn’t excuse the punitive and economically unwise actions by the European financial community over the last 5 years. The extremely harsh measures (already in place) should have actually produced budget surpluses but instead the economy is in a near depression state. This should be no surprise. A wide range of economists predicted this. Austerity? Yes but not at punitive counter- productive levels. In other words both the Greek government and its European creditors should be negotiating for sensible middle ground where there is some hope of a viable Greek economy and some level of debt repayment.
Rigid, ideological thinking has dominated both camps and breaking through this obstacle is the greatest challenge of all. As for the rest of the democratic world, this harsh lesson should convince everyone that cooperative, non-stereotyped thinking is the powerful force needed to address our increasingly complex world.
Rigid, ideological thinking has dominated both camps and breaking through this obstacle is the greatest challenge of all. As for the rest of the democratic world, this harsh lesson should convince everyone that cooperative, non-stereotyped thinking is the powerful force needed to address our increasingly complex world.
11
This vote is the international finance equivalent of my kids telling my wife and I that they voted to have ice cream for dinner.
56
Condescending and false analogy. Minors do not have the right to secede from parental control. Participation in the EU and NATO is consensual.
To those celebrating the Greeks' "no vote" a question. Why should anyone ever repay a loan, fulfill an obligation or live up to a commitment?
39
I only am permitted to take loans that I am likely to be able to repay. My credit score, income, expenses, other outstanding credit obligations, etc. all go into a lender's decision to extend me further credit.
Perhaps a better question should be, once they started looking like a bad risk, why did lenders lend them so much more so that they were certain to be a terrible risk?
Perhaps a better question should be, once they started looking like a bad risk, why did lenders lend them so much more so that they were certain to be a terrible risk?
15
I agree Tony. the world has gone mad. Everyone has a reason for not honoring their commitments.
...because the European governments needed the Greeks to repay the European banks that lent them the money in the first place. The bailout money is just going to Greece, where the Greeks are keeping 10% and adding the interest they owe, and it is going back to Europe to pay their debt. It´s a stupid charade. The time has come for European banks and institutions to tell their clients and taxpayers that they have lost them a ton of money!
Soooooo... Greece is not a European country. It is a Balkan country, always has been, where negotiations are endless, means and ends are confused, and family/regional/political feuds are long remembered. Europe needs to provide a bailout and discipline simultaneously. The social and political consequences of not doing so for Europe and the Atlantic Alliance are very serious. Russian naval bases in Greece would yield a very lucrative rent - - - Is this what Europe wants?
16
@Copse: "Soooooo... Greece is not a European country."
That's not entirely clear. Another news site[1] has two quotes from Mr. Tsipras that don't seem entirely consistent:
* "Together we have written a bright page in modern European history," he said.
* "This is not an mandate of rupture with Europe, but a mandate that bolsters our negotiating strength to achieve a viable deal."
@Copse: "Russian naval bases in Greece ..."
Remember that Greece is a NATO member.
[1] http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/07/06/03/30/polls-close-in-momentous-...
That's not entirely clear. Another news site[1] has two quotes from Mr. Tsipras that don't seem entirely consistent:
* "Together we have written a bright page in modern European history," he said.
* "This is not an mandate of rupture with Europe, but a mandate that bolsters our negotiating strength to achieve a viable deal."
@Copse: "Russian naval bases in Greece ..."
Remember that Greece is a NATO member.
[1] http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/07/06/03/30/polls-close-in-momentous-...
What an idiotic comment.
What makes a country European, except for being in Europe, AND, in this case, being the cradle of European culture?
What makes a country European, except for being in Europe, AND, in this case, being the cradle of European culture?
Finally, Greece has stood up to the demeaning and economically futile imposition of austerity, sending European Union technocrats and leaders a resounding message. It has been so easy over the last several years for officials of the IMF, the ECB, the European Commission, and the Euro Group to mete out brutal economic prescriptions with no concern about the hardship and the misery they have engendered: after all, their jobs are not at stake, and they drive home every night in well-appointed cars to comfortable homes and fully-stocked refrigerators. Their lack of empathy has been appalling. Hopefully things will start to change thanks to the courage of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and the Greek people.
19
Your posting demonstrates a lot more than some of the others knolwlegde occuring in Greece. Thanks for your good points made.
"Their lack of empathy has been appalling." You can say that again and again!!! Suicides are sky high, people desperate, and European leaders want to punish them more. Can't stomach it!
Bravo... blame everyone except the deadbeat government who took loans with no plan or intention of ever repaying them.
Bravo Greece! IMF is evil and makes a fortune off of interest on poor countries around the world. Greece has issues to work out such paying taxes and corruption (feed each other) but there is no reason to punish the millions or retirees who worked for 30-40 years and paid into the pension plans! Shame on you IMF and Germany for not compromising on this important factor. The same way America carries poor southern states based on historical geopolitical reasons - the rich Northern countries in Europe will have to do the same until the Southern cultures gets their acts' together. We are all in this world economy together for better or worse. The creepy big multinational banks are like vultures praying on small poor countries since their inception. The people of Greece stood up to unfair/unreasonable terms and the average middle class person throughout the world should support them as all of our retirement monies are at risk of being eliminated by the greedy 1% - WE ARE the 99%!
18
Our southern states have not established lucrative and unsustainable social welfare schemes, and do not borrow money they can never repay to maintain themselves in a lifestyle beyond their means. BTW, you might notice that the southern states are aggressively growing in population and enterprise, and that their low-tax, right-to-work model is succeeding.
Why is it that we always blame imprudent borrowers, without ever saying a word about the poor judgement and culpability of imprudent lenders?
And who was the genius who ever thought that Greece could function on the same currency as Germany?
And who was the genius who ever thought that Greece could function on the same currency as Germany?
46
Thank you! Moral hazard works both ways: while some argue that isolating Greeks from the consequences of their profligate ways ensures that history repeat itself (as though the last five years haven't been punishment enough), why is it not true that lenders need to assume the consequences of their bad lending decisions? I'm reminded of the Argentinean default last year, when a handful of "vulture capitalists" refused a restructuring deal that 98% of their co-lenders had agreed to, forcing Argentina into default. As for the German and French banks, it must be nice to have the EU and IMF as collection agencies.
Greeks have now twice in the span of 7 months rejected the forces of austerity. At what point does a no mean no? When do the technocrats at the EU and ECB empathize with the Greeks; recognize that keeping a foot on the throat of growth only works for as long as the other states remain heedless to the economic cliff's edge upon which they've been tottering for six years?
And when do the sloppy risk takers get told officially that they made their foolish bets and lost? There's not much talk of this nature among the likes of Ms. Merkel, tho keeping in the awkward Gaston-and-Alphonse world of j'en sais rien, she'll soon be off to demand solidarity with that paragon of courage M. Hollande. I don't suppose the conversation - or any other discussion at that level - will ever turn away from its safe singular preoccupation with Greece and its left-wing renegades too proud to play the part of glorified beggars. The nerve of them!
I don't suppose the conversation will ever round on the banks, though some amount of equilibrium regarding culprits and their liabilities would do negotiations with the Greeks a world of good. Interesting as always in this ongoing crisis how the pain is inflicted on debtor nations and their citizens but never (never!) on the banks and the public institutions that now understand action against or criticism of the banks to be the third rail of political careers.
(BTW, my advice to the Poles: hang onto your zlotys!! There's a lesson in this for you.)
And when do the sloppy risk takers get told officially that they made their foolish bets and lost? There's not much talk of this nature among the likes of Ms. Merkel, tho keeping in the awkward Gaston-and-Alphonse world of j'en sais rien, she'll soon be off to demand solidarity with that paragon of courage M. Hollande. I don't suppose the conversation - or any other discussion at that level - will ever turn away from its safe singular preoccupation with Greece and its left-wing renegades too proud to play the part of glorified beggars. The nerve of them!
I don't suppose the conversation will ever round on the banks, though some amount of equilibrium regarding culprits and their liabilities would do negotiations with the Greeks a world of good. Interesting as always in this ongoing crisis how the pain is inflicted on debtor nations and their citizens but never (never!) on the banks and the public institutions that now understand action against or criticism of the banks to be the third rail of political careers.
(BTW, my advice to the Poles: hang onto your zlotys!! There's a lesson in this for you.)
18
I think would be better for Greece to leave the euro it quite obvious that they just want to impose endless austerity on Greece. If they did their currency would get downgraded but the would regain control over there own soverning economy
8
The Wall Street-dominated global financial cartel (IMF, ECB) resembles a racketeering organization. We are witnessing a global awakening, where people from different countries are realizing that that "austerity" is basically a mechanism by which the global financial elite squeezes more and more productivity and profit from dwindling human and natural resources, due to natural limits when it comes to the voracious demands of the corporatocracy (rapid quarterly growth and profits).
In a nutshell, this scam of global proportions works like this... The global financial elite "creates" money out of thin air (i.e., secret loans of trillions of dollars from the FED to Wall Street). Flush with "money," these institution push it (like drug pushers) unto countries, institution, and "consumers."
To create demand for this money, they push for policies that undermine and underfund the public sector. Also, in a sort of legal bribery scheme, lobbyists get public officials to implement these policies (using revolving door-type bribery, campaign contributions, etc.).
The stage being set, the money is pushed as "loans." Those who devise these policies know that eventually the loans won't be paid and once they go into default, this global financial elite moves in for the kill: taking possession of real assets, and forcing governments to implement "austerity measures," i.e., squeeze more productivity out of workers.
It is a scam through and through!
In a nutshell, this scam of global proportions works like this... The global financial elite "creates" money out of thin air (i.e., secret loans of trillions of dollars from the FED to Wall Street). Flush with "money," these institution push it (like drug pushers) unto countries, institution, and "consumers."
To create demand for this money, they push for policies that undermine and underfund the public sector. Also, in a sort of legal bribery scheme, lobbyists get public officials to implement these policies (using revolving door-type bribery, campaign contributions, etc.).
The stage being set, the money is pushed as "loans." Those who devise these policies know that eventually the loans won't be paid and once they go into default, this global financial elite moves in for the kill: taking possession of real assets, and forcing governments to implement "austerity measures," i.e., squeeze more productivity out of workers.
It is a scam through and through!
31
Your global awakening will quickly become a long dark nightmare when the citizens of Greece realize they have no way to pay for anything, and a government whose policies are 100 years old. Look on the brightside - given Greece's history of instability and terrorism they make an excellent candidate for Putin and other oligarchs.
Socialism is the system whereby greed and economic equality duke it out, each inflicting as much damage to themselves as they do to the other.
4
Finally, people have said "no" to greedy oligarchs and their puppets who love austerity for everyone but themselves.
21
Germany should (and will) hold a hard line because today they are negotiating with Greece, but tomorrow they could be negotiating with Spain or Italy when the stakes are much greater.
15
German taxpayers need to figure out that they are bailing out their own bankster class, not the Greeks.
Pretty cold hearted, don't you think?
However it goes from now on, sadly, the greek people will lose. Either in or out of the EU, they are gonna face hard times, and they only have their deceiving and corrupted government to blame
13
The Greeks have themselves to blame. They are the ones who elected their deceiving and corrupt government.
Expulsion is in order. What is the EU waiting for?
10
"The news media, dominated by Greek oligarchs, saturated the airwaves and the newspapers with stories about losing gasoline and medicines, while the plight of elderly pensioners was afforded far more attention than in the past, media experts said."
But isn't this an EU-Greece crisis? You wonder if the Greek people are tiring of more than the Troika. It may be that they have grown angry and weary at their own "oligarchs."
And as an aside, isn't it time, NYT, that we characterize our own media overlords of Fox, CBS, ABC and NBC as oligarchs as well? If it's good for Greece...
But isn't this an EU-Greece crisis? You wonder if the Greek people are tiring of more than the Troika. It may be that they have grown angry and weary at their own "oligarchs."
And as an aside, isn't it time, NYT, that we characterize our own media overlords of Fox, CBS, ABC and NBC as oligarchs as well? If it's good for Greece...
11
Good for the Greek people. They said "enough" to being slaves to global finance.
Would that Americans had the same courage.
Would that Americans had the same courage.
17
Such is the power of ideas that even after moderate Keynesian stimulus policies averted a depression in 2008-2009 in the United States and Europe, the European Central Bank maintains policies based on the assumption that economies are self-adjusting and that if countries tighten their belts, even when they are gasping for breath, and avoid increasing budget deficits, their economies will right themselves in the long run. Keynes, alas, showed that such economies will attain equilbrium at a high level of unemployment.
The mainstream economics profession has never forgiven him for this radical notion. Not only the Greeks but other countries in Europe,as Paul Krugman
pointed out, will continue to suffer from their willfulness.
The mainstream economics profession has never forgiven him for this radical notion. Not only the Greeks but other countries in Europe,as Paul Krugman
pointed out, will continue to suffer from their willfulness.
9
Now that Greece has voted no, the other involved European populations should be given an opportunity to vote on whether or not they wish to further support Greece. It can be scheduled for July 19, in two weeks. A no vote by the voters should be respected by the other European governments and financial institutions. If a deal could be consummated before July 19, it would hold. Otherwise, unless the other Europeans voted yes, negotiations are over and the Greece can return to the drachma and the temporary (?) turmoil it will bring.
15
After he was defeated for re-election in 1989, New York Mayor Ed Koch was asked if he would ever run for office again. “No,” Koch replied. “The people have spoken … and they must be punished.”
Now it is the turn of the Greek people.
If they truly burn with fierce patriotic pride, then something may come of the "no" vote. With luck that new-found pride will lead the Greeks to take responsibility for their own fate instead of sponging off their neighbors.
Let's hope the Greeks will start paying their taxes and their fares on public transportation. Let's hope they will reform their social security (public pension) system so that 50 year-olds don't retire on the public dole. Let's hope they will finally toughen up and take away the monopolies of lawyers, pharmacists, truckers and just about every other occupation that strangle their economy. Let's hope they find the will to drastically cut their bloated and politicized public bureaucracy. Let's hope they break their awful habit of voting for corrupt politicians,
If Greek pride stood in the way of the Greeks from doing the right things because they were told to do so by foreign creditors, just possibly the Greeks will now have the gumption to see for themselves the need to do these things.
If the Greeks don't seize this opportunity to fumigate their economy and stand on their own feet, then they will deserve the world's jeers and catcalls that they will undoubtedly hear.
Now it is the turn of the Greek people.
If they truly burn with fierce patriotic pride, then something may come of the "no" vote. With luck that new-found pride will lead the Greeks to take responsibility for their own fate instead of sponging off their neighbors.
Let's hope the Greeks will start paying their taxes and their fares on public transportation. Let's hope they will reform their social security (public pension) system so that 50 year-olds don't retire on the public dole. Let's hope they will finally toughen up and take away the monopolies of lawyers, pharmacists, truckers and just about every other occupation that strangle their economy. Let's hope they find the will to drastically cut their bloated and politicized public bureaucracy. Let's hope they break their awful habit of voting for corrupt politicians,
If Greek pride stood in the way of the Greeks from doing the right things because they were told to do so by foreign creditors, just possibly the Greeks will now have the gumption to see for themselves the need to do these things.
If the Greeks don't seize this opportunity to fumigate their economy and stand on their own feet, then they will deserve the world's jeers and catcalls that they will undoubtedly hear.
23
Great note. Of course, it is almost certain that none of these behavioral reforms will ever happen there. Entitlement has its privileges.
1
The Greeks will have a rough time in the near future but will recover more quickly than most people expect. Why?
There are millions of Greeks and people of Greek ancestry who will send support.
There will be swarms of tourists looking for a cheap vacation.
Barter systems and an underground economy will keep people in the necessities.
The Russians will come snooping around and NATO will be obliged to outbid them.
Socialist know how to collect taxes. A collective sense of struggle might even move the ordinary Greek to pay them.
There are millions of Greeks and people of Greek ancestry who will send support.
There will be swarms of tourists looking for a cheap vacation.
Barter systems and an underground economy will keep people in the necessities.
The Russians will come snooping around and NATO will be obliged to outbid them.
Socialist know how to collect taxes. A collective sense of struggle might even move the ordinary Greek to pay them.
6
You're right about the Russians, which is an ace card for Tsipras.
We should be aware that:1) Goldman Sachs helped to cause this when it developed derivatives for Greece and then shorted them to break even. This, in 2010 , typical of huge banks helped to bring us to this point; 2) It is the western banks (creditors) that control the people in the U.S. and Europe. Andrew Jackson, in 1832 warned us in his veto of the Second National Bank, the danger of the central banks and their influence on government; 3) Greece will be helped. The question is who and what this will do to the East -West relationship in that region of the world.
As an aside of history relating to this: Bismark in a famous statement in the late 19th Century stated on war, "It will be because of some thing in the Balkans." Yes, Greece is in the Balkans.
As an aside of history relating to this: Bismark in a famous statement in the late 19th Century stated on war, "It will be because of some thing in the Balkans." Yes, Greece is in the Balkans.
10
what are these "oxi"-morons celebrating? They're about to have the rudest awakening of their lives!
16
I can sum up all the comments here in one:
"It doesn't matter if the Greeks defaulted. They're not rich like Germany, so they're automatically not to blame for failing to pay their obligations. Someone should should pay, as long as it's only 'the rich'."
This "blame-the-rich-no-matter-what" mantra is straight garbage. I understand that leftists can't abide the injustice of someone having more money than they do, but being poor(er) does not automatically absolve you of all personal responsibility.
"It doesn't matter if the Greeks defaulted. They're not rich like Germany, so they're automatically not to blame for failing to pay their obligations. Someone should should pay, as long as it's only 'the rich'."
This "blame-the-rich-no-matter-what" mantra is straight garbage. I understand that leftists can't abide the injustice of someone having more money than they do, but being poor(er) does not automatically absolve you of all personal responsibility.
27
Unfortunately this small country, but rich in heritage does not have a Federal reserve like the US to print more money to mitigate fiscal deficit while forever increasing the debt ceiling.
No, it's not the money difference - it's the lack of jobs. It's the real issue here and it's the real issue in Greece.
Good, shove it down the hedge fund, banks and speculators throats that feed on misery. And say stuff it to the IMF and the rest of the financial cabal that is ruling the world thru central bank monetary manipulation and outright financial blackmail as they sip champagne at their next breakfast buffet in Davos, Zurich, Hong Kong, Jackson Hole, etc.
And tell 'ol Yeller at our Fed that monetary muppets aren't cool......
And tell 'ol Yeller at our Fed that monetary muppets aren't cool......
9
… and when my retirement money takes a hit tomorrow, I will have these Greeks who retire at 53, pay no taxes, and take 4 hour lunches to thank.
31
It's interesting, isn't it? You retirement money is at risk. But the bank executives keep getting raises. Why isn't it the other way around? That's what the Greek "NO" was all about.
If a country is allows itself to accumulate debt that it can not pay it is not the responsibility of other countries to remove that debt. If other countries choose to help then it is those countries right to set the parameters of that help. If Greece can not accept that, Greece has a personal problem. The USA should use this example to review its own ways. Congress and the administration are doing nothing of significance to reduce the huge debt and control spending. This will result in the same issues confronting Greece. Then the entitled masses here will have a temper tantrum. If there is no leadership to properly put in context the seriousness of our situation, we shall also flounder. It is time to tell Congress that spending beyond revenue has to stop.. It is time to ask the 2016 candidates to explain in detail their plans for debt reduction and controlling spending. There is no one big enough to bail the USA out. You can take all the assets of top 3% and still need much more. If you take all the assets of the top 3% the collapse will happen much faster as those assets provide millions of jobs. The debt is a middle class problem. The middle class needs to speak up and they can not take from the top 3% to fix it as that fix will not work. The middle class needs to demand Congress fix the problem. Its our ball. Have you written your Congressperson about the debt?
12
There are virtually no parallels between the US and Greece. You should stop getting your information from Fox.
Let's hope for the best - that the bankers match the estimated 30% writedown of Greek bank accounts with a writedown of the excessive amount of debt - to something that Greece actually has some chance of being able to pay back.
6
Dunno what the Greeks in the photos are celebrating. It's now VE Day, it's All Hope Is Lost Day.
14
Good riddance. The Greeks, with pensions at 50, an economy that produces nothing but government jobs, limited agricultural goods and tourist attractions, and elects--literally--a Stalinist Prime Minister, and now thinks they hold some bargaining chips? I look forward to visiting--it's going to be a bargain for a long time as it moves back to the Drachma. In Iceland, in contrast, it became the norm for people to work two jobs, willing to do anything, to move overseas, and to live with capital controls since 2008 that make Greece's look like child's play. All the Greeks working in the EU can plan to move back to Stalingrad on the Agean.
23
This is laughable. They will be out of the EU and off the backs of productive countries like Germany. They produce nothing and will be poor for the foreseeable future. That's what you get when socialists rule.
27
Uh, the socialists were not elected until 2015, 6 years into this disastrous austerity plan. Same right wing philosophy which is gutting the US.
what happened to all the money that was borrowed? Some of it was used to pay back prior loans but it would be good to know exactly what happened to all the billions already spent. If it turns out they were hijacked into various pockets, it should be recovered.
6
I just can not understand why so many readers do not get it. The Greeks borrowed money from Europe, and failed to pay it back. They have had a free ride for the last ten years. If you read http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/05/as-greece-vot... you will see that Greece fails to collect 89.5 percent of its incoming tax revenue. No country can survive under these conditions, yet the government continued to pay out, with borrowed money. If the Greeks citizens can not even pay their own government, how will they ever pay foreigners their money back. The only conclusion that I can draw is that the Greeks never had any intention of paying anyone. You can blame the banks and the Germans as much as you want, but Greece borrowed these funds at the same preferred rate that Germany gets, and Germany is an economic powerhouse, while Greece has a third world economy. Greece should be paying 5 times the interest rate, but due to the economic power of the European Union, Greece gets a pass. This should be enough reason to want to stay in the Euro Zone, but obviously, the Greek people don't get it either. The people of Greece need to learn a hard lesson and now they are going to get back it in Spades...
31
It is time for EU nations to seriously begin thinking about the purpose and future of EU. Carefully examined, EU appears to be nothing more than an excuse for Germany and France to exercise neo- (economic) imperialsm on the rest of Europe.
6
When people are compassionate about Greek's situation, we should remind ourselves how Greek was able to join EU in the first place. Greece government made a series of lies and deceits about their solvency, and they continued to lie several times when they're on the edge of a financial collapse.
11
Good, leave the Euro and make it on your own. You can't expect loans to which no conditions are tied. If you want to receive free money, well folks, the spigot is closed. Hard-working European tax papers d not want to support you forever!
17
I flew from Istanbul to Athens at night. When I reached the airport, I asked about the exchange rate. I was told by two currency exchangers that $100 would amount to 72.5 euros. The metro from the airport to the city costs 8 euros, but was free. I got no impression that people on the subways were anxious or depressed. Rather many looked rather happy. The traffic around Omonia was controlled. When I turned on TV, the BBC was reporting that Greeks voted against the EU bailout agreement by a large margin. We are living in an interesting time.
8
Two things have to happen
1. Angela Merkel and cohorts have to recognize that most of the Greek debt is unrecoverable
2. Alexis Tsipras and 80% of Greece have to come to terms with the need to leave the Eurozone.
Either this can happen chaotically or efforts can be devoted to making it happen as smoothly as possible.
1. Angela Merkel and cohorts have to recognize that most of the Greek debt is unrecoverable
2. Alexis Tsipras and 80% of Greece have to come to terms with the need to leave the Eurozone.
Either this can happen chaotically or efforts can be devoted to making it happen as smoothly as possible.
6
If, if, if the Greeks did this, that or the other thing. If the EU didnt like the deal years ago they could have opted out. But they didn;'t, because politically Europe needs Greece and vice versa. Own up to it. Let's go.
5
Good Job, Good People of Greece! Thank you for showing the courage to put a stop to the economic strangulation being forced on the small European countries so the top 1% global financial elite can take over your governments for personal profit when you can't pay back their usurious mafia-model interest rates. Stand Strong. You have excellent leaders in Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and your finance minister. Thanks to you and the Good People of other EU countries, it's a New Day and a New World where average people will no longer be robbed by the wealthiest.
20
Sorry but the portrayal you write about is as if Google is trying to force a buyout of Apple. The European Union did not force the Greeks to squander their money on loans so Greeks could retire at 50 years or to reduce unemployment by the government hiring every college graduate nor did they say they would ever pay for their debt. So now the Greeks will have to find their own money to pay their debts, & not rely Europe or for that matter any other entity if they cannot even make a payment. Yes democracy has been demonstrated in the plebiscite, but the decision to negotiate with countries who bought Greek debt without a payment schedules being met means they have no credit. Spain, Portugal & Italy have made great strides to improve their future. Keeping your credit rating means you have a better lending capability & a chance for improving your wealth,but you cannot expect not to pay your debts & recieve more credit. That is what Europe has said to Greece. Even the World Bank or IMF cannot help Greece now. They rejected austerity but they also rejected a helping hand,too. So now they are self imposing austerity on themselves . Can you imagine if the countries who leant Greece money, were to stop all future aid? Good luck with the drachma. Even Greeks most likely will only accept Euros ,Dollars or pounds.
Do you even know what you are saying: average people will no longer be robbed by the wealthiest? What part of "Greece is broke and has no money" is difficult to comprehend?
The Greek population has collectively flipped the bird at the European Union. All that is left for us to say is: Well done and good luck. You're on your own now.
24
I am reminded of this quote attributed to Alexander Fraser Tyler:
"A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."
He also said regarding Athenian democracy: "They were perpetually divided into factions, which servilely ranked themselves under the banners of the contending demagogues; and these maintained their influence over their partisans by the most shameful corruption and bribery, of which the means were supplied alone by the plunder of the public money."
"A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."
He also said regarding Athenian democracy: "They were perpetually divided into factions, which servilely ranked themselves under the banners of the contending demagogues; and these maintained their influence over their partisans by the most shameful corruption and bribery, of which the means were supplied alone by the plunder of the public money."
21
It truly said that the endgame being playing out between Greece and its creditors is beginning to reveal the true nature of the ongoing debt is not about money and economics but of power.
Carthaginian Peace terms by imposing very brutal 'peace' by completely crushing Greece, the lending troika left with no choice but say no by the proud Greek.
The lenders ought have learnt the lessons of The Treaty of Versailles, the peace treaty ending the end of World War I imposing reparations at 132 billion Marks on Germany sowing the seeds of WW2
Joseph Stiglitze recently writing in The Guardian said " We should be clear: almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there. It has gone to pay out private-sector creditors – including German and French banks. Greece has gotten but a pittance, but it has paid a high price to preserve these countries’ banking systems. The IMF and the other “official” creditors do not need the money that is being demanded. Under a business-as-usual scenario, the money received would most likely just be lent out again to Greece.
But, again, it’s not about the money. It’s about using “deadlines” to force Greece to knuckle under, and to accept the unacceptable – not only austerity measures, but other regressive and punitive policies".
It not for nothing Aldous Huxley said that "That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
Carthaginian Peace terms by imposing very brutal 'peace' by completely crushing Greece, the lending troika left with no choice but say no by the proud Greek.
The lenders ought have learnt the lessons of The Treaty of Versailles, the peace treaty ending the end of World War I imposing reparations at 132 billion Marks on Germany sowing the seeds of WW2
Joseph Stiglitze recently writing in The Guardian said " We should be clear: almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there. It has gone to pay out private-sector creditors – including German and French banks. Greece has gotten but a pittance, but it has paid a high price to preserve these countries’ banking systems. The IMF and the other “official” creditors do not need the money that is being demanded. Under a business-as-usual scenario, the money received would most likely just be lent out again to Greece.
But, again, it’s not about the money. It’s about using “deadlines” to force Greece to knuckle under, and to accept the unacceptable – not only austerity measures, but other regressive and punitive policies".
It not for nothing Aldous Huxley said that "That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
11
Good for Europe, EU, and Euro. Can finally say good bye to a country that lied to get into Euro, reaping all the benefits, while taking no financial responsibilities.
14
Well, democracy has spoken! I guess there is nothing left to do but to loan them as many billions of euros as necessary without any preconditions or expectations that it will ever be repaid; lest we be called blackmailers, fascists, or worst names.
Germans and other EU countries will just have to raise their retirement age by 2 or 3 years to pay for it. What's a few extra years of work amongst friends.
Germans and other EU countries will just have to raise their retirement age by 2 or 3 years to pay for it. What's a few extra years of work amongst friends.
24
When you spend and spend without caution or wanting to give up anything, it is bound to catch up to you.
1
The U.S. bailed Germany out after World War II with the Marshal Plan. Why is Germany so opposed now to letting Greece be helped in a similar situation? Most people in Greece had not control over the factors which created Greece's economic crisis in the first place.
10
Thank you for having a compassionate heart, unlike many commenters here.
It is possible for a person to be against austerity as a strategy in times of depression, and to also think that Greece has been very badly governed. A lot of people making comments appear not to appreciate that the money Greece owes is not to fat cat private investors and banks. They got out long ago. The money is primarily owed to the people of the EU, whose governments and institutions own almost all of the Greek bonds and largely worthless "collateral". Countries within the EU that are far poorer than Greece will now not see that investment if and when it is wiped off the books. This is not a glorious day for the poor and powerless. It is a very bad day.
12
Queue up Krugman--lead him to the precipice--and make him a witness to what his philosophy has wrought. You see....these are the inevitable consequences of living beyond your means--in this case--of voting yourself benefits your economy cannot support. While I feel compassion for Greek citizens--this type of behavior is running rampant around the globe--and someone had to be made "first example". U.S. take notice. We also have a government we cannot afford--and trying to balance the books by confiscating private wealth is not the solution.
15
Taxation is not confiscation of private wealth but the sharing of wealth that was created with public money's . Name an industry in the US that has not benefited from taxpayer money! Even banks cannot & have not stay solvent without government intervention & money. Since George Washington & Alexander Hamilton , this has proven so. There is not an American alive who has not benefitted from wealth creation fed by the government! We will only have small government when people are perfect,rich or poor.
They may have just voted to throw their country back into the 19th century.
13
If the EU allows Greece to skip out on the debt, next Spain, then Portugal, then Ireland, then Italy will pull the same gambit. Why would they not?
I personally plan to buy an ocen front villa in Greece for $10 grand in gold, and I will get a willing seller.
I personally plan to buy an ocen front villa in Greece for $10 grand in gold, and I will get a willing seller.
4
This will mark the beginning for democratic socialism in Europe and the Western world. The European spring has begun: next stop in the fall will be Spain.
7
They say the voting public knows what they want, and they deserve to get it good and hard. The Greeks have voted against austerity. And now they will see economic ruin that will make austerity look like paradise. This is what happens when you don't pay your bills.
14
I read the Times article about the involvement of Goldman Sachs in this mess, apparently a previous Greek government paid them $300 million dollars for some very bad advice. It seems that most of this problem resulted from the 2008 meltdown, so another set of horrible circumstances resulting from the Wall Street casino. The Greek economy appears to be the macro version of what happened here with home foreclosures, upside down loans, no way you can pay back the principal with whatever else the banks are heaping on top of that. Moral of story, keep a close eye on the financial sector, because all they care about are their fees and commissions for the deal and their bonuses for being brilliant. It seems that the person on the street in Athens is similar to the Romney 47percent guinea pig here in America, minding their own business, trying to live your life, and the masters of the universe think they know better.
18
Carol lee - "...Romney 47percent guinea pig here in America, minding their own business, trying to live your life,"
The 47 percent that Romney referred to were not the ones "minding their own business, trying to live your life" they were the ones on the government dole living their lives through the largess of the taxpaying citizens of the US. A very big difference, wouldn't you say?
The 47 percent that Romney referred to were not the ones "minding their own business, trying to live your life" they were the ones on the government dole living their lives through the largess of the taxpaying citizens of the US. A very big difference, wouldn't you say?
Yeah , Romney who got a $120 million dollar loan from the government , paid out $80 million in bonuses to himself , said it was not enough money & threatened to take the business to bankruptcy. Sounds a little like Greece , huh? Rodney's 47 % mind their own bu$$ine$$ is correct at the taxpayers expense, another similarity to Greece!
It was decades of wanting something for nothing (who gets to retire on a pension at 40 in any other country?) that led Greece into this mess and now they want to continue to have the rest of Europe pay for their benefits indefinitely with a bill never coming due.
As the Greeks dance in the streets to "no more austerity", the question still remains: Who is going to pay Greece's debt bill now that Greece refuses to, and how do the Greeks expect to survive on printed drachmas that are not backed by anything other than desire, fantasy and national pride?
Let's fast forward a year from now, and see if the greek people are still dancing in the streets....
As the Greeks dance in the streets to "no more austerity", the question still remains: Who is going to pay Greece's debt bill now that Greece refuses to, and how do the Greeks expect to survive on printed drachmas that are not backed by anything other than desire, fantasy and national pride?
Let's fast forward a year from now, and see if the greek people are still dancing in the streets....
19
And the U.S. dollar is backed by....?
With austerity bringing catastrophic unemployment to Greece, you really don'y have to worry about when Greeks retire. Many will have crippled careers, and work until they are dead just to get by. Their pensions have already been cut by 40%.
Many commenters here have been continually lowering Greek's supposed retirement age, from mid 50's, to 50, and now 40.
Do I hear 30 from the peanut gallery? And, the Greeks will dance no matter what. Is it called perseverance.
With austerity bringing catastrophic unemployment to Greece, you really don'y have to worry about when Greeks retire. Many will have crippled careers, and work until they are dead just to get by. Their pensions have already been cut by 40%.
Many commenters here have been continually lowering Greek's supposed retirement age, from mid 50's, to 50, and now 40.
Do I hear 30 from the peanut gallery? And, the Greeks will dance no matter what. Is it called perseverance.
1
No sure that it's retirement at 40 but it' some ridiculous age 50ish. 40% of those that are employed are employed by the government.
Having read Paul Krugman's columns on Greece vs. Germany and the bailouts, I'm thrilled with this result -- but I know the Greeks are in for a very, very tough time in the immediate future. I wish them all well.
11
I don't know who's gonna win or lose, by my sense is to not bail anyone out!
5
The "no vote" is heartening. The Greeks are rejecting the notion that they should have conditions of austerity imposed on them from abroad for actions that are the responsibility of a few corrupt politicians and business leaders in their country, as well as the foreign lenders who were so willing to supply credit when things looked good. As Noam Chomsky has pointed out, it really is a case of class warfare, of the poor having to pay for the rich. This result is also a strong rejection of the moralizing coming from people like Angela Merkel, and worse, the frequent racism underlying comments about the Greek stereotype. I hope this result can lead to a stronger and eventually more prosperous Greek society.
17
Pride returneth before the fall, it would seem.
The Greeks voted NO to an offer that was no longer on the table past last Tuesday. What were they thinking?
The Greeks voted NO to an offer that was no longer on the table past last Tuesday. What were they thinking?
11
It should be noted that the 61% of Greeks voting 'No" was far higher than the percentage who voted for Syriza this winter.
8
and roughly equal to the percentage of children who voted to stay up late and have ice cream for dinner
I hear a lot of reports about how corrupt Greece is, about how it fails to collect taxes. I have yet to see concrete examples shown to me (I'm not counting anecdotes). But if it's is true then this referendum gives cover to the government to actually collect those taxes and jail the swindlers.
6
Can't say I blame them. There seemed to be no limit on austerity measure pancaked on top of austerity measure, just to get the latest package of credit extensions. And when that cannot be paid on time, yet another round of austerity. Voting yes meant a death spiral for Greek economic life.
When there are bad loans or extensions of credit, it is just as much the fault of the creditor extending the credit as the borrower. I never heard anything about creditor write offs of loans to balance Greek austerity, and bring finality to this process.
Tomorrow's European markets will nosedive, with a secondary effect on markets outside of Europe. The total economic harm outside of Greece will be greater than that inside Greece. But that seems to be the way Germany wants it.
A yes vote meant Greece living under depression like conditions with certainty. Can't blame the Greeks for voting no, and hoping the rest of the financial world ultimately returns to sanity.
When there are bad loans or extensions of credit, it is just as much the fault of the creditor extending the credit as the borrower. I never heard anything about creditor write offs of loans to balance Greek austerity, and bring finality to this process.
Tomorrow's European markets will nosedive, with a secondary effect on markets outside of Europe. The total economic harm outside of Greece will be greater than that inside Greece. But that seems to be the way Germany wants it.
A yes vote meant Greece living under depression like conditions with certainty. Can't blame the Greeks for voting no, and hoping the rest of the financial world ultimately returns to sanity.
14
I never understood the vitriol that people have against Greece. The Greek people are trying to do what they think is best to save their economic future.
People in the comment section are calling the Greeks lazy - dead beat socialist. That's a very narrow world view. It's easy to de-humanize people by name calling. It's harder to understand the suffering and hopelessness of unemployment; which is one of the greatest evils of our time. To me the Greeks today voted for hope and rejected fear. So why all the hate?
People in the comment section are calling the Greeks lazy - dead beat socialist. That's a very narrow world view. It's easy to de-humanize people by name calling. It's harder to understand the suffering and hopelessness of unemployment; which is one of the greatest evils of our time. To me the Greeks today voted for hope and rejected fear. So why all the hate?
28
Lend me $10,000 and then I will explain
RE: dead beat. That's what people who don't pay their bill are.
No hate at all here - but now they own the issue - how to pay off their debts and how to grow their economy. The easy part is now behind them, the challenging work ahead. with little space for error or delay.
Ordinary Greeks have been defrauded over the years by their own elites and their political servants. Though the degree to which books had been cooked only became public with the election of the Papandreou government in 2009, which imposed austerity measures in an attempt to deal with the situation - by which time it was too late. But the fraudulent bookkeeping was well known to the bankers who extended loans anyway when Greece joined the Eurozone in 2001, anticipating a killing with debt servicing. Just as in the US mortgage crisis, it took to make bad debt, an irresponsible borrower and an irresponsible lender.
So now, the Greek people were required to shoulder all of the responsibility while the bankers remained whole, and this is what the referendum was all about. Greek voters insisted they can no longer be abused without their consent, which they rightly refused to give. Here's the message they sent the bankers: we don't accept that you can drive us into penury while escaping any sacrifice yourselves. Good for them.
So now, the Greek people were required to shoulder all of the responsibility while the bankers remained whole, and this is what the referendum was all about. Greek voters insisted they can no longer be abused without their consent, which they rightly refused to give. Here's the message they sent the bankers: we don't accept that you can drive us into penury while escaping any sacrifice yourselves. Good for them.
160
I don't see how bankers have remained whole. They took a 50% haircut in 2011. As you have alluded to, the original sin of the bankers was masking Greece's true debt, thereby allowing an unqualified country into the Eurozone. However, private institutions have largely left the Greek bond market, leaving the IMF, ECB and Eurozone central banks as the majority debt holders. If Greece is to default, the cost would be borne by European citizens, many who are pensioners themselves.
Yeah! Let the banks burn. Those bums lent Greece money they knew it couldn't pay. It's going to be fun to see those banks go under! Evil bankers!
Of course it will largely be Greek banks who were stuffed with Greek debt. The Greek people will be forced to bail-out their banks and deposits will be haircut. Greece and its banks will be cut off from international finance, and will be forced to tackle a primary deficit with no access to capital. Krugman wins! The Greek people go backward 40 years and the Eurozone holds ranks and buys Greece on the cheap for vacations.
Of course it will largely be Greek banks who were stuffed with Greek debt. The Greek people will be forced to bail-out their banks and deposits will be haircut. Greece and its banks will be cut off from international finance, and will be forced to tackle a primary deficit with no access to capital. Krugman wins! The Greek people go backward 40 years and the Eurozone holds ranks and buys Greece on the cheap for vacations.
What bankers? Do you mean the ordinary citizens of the EU through their institutions? The private bankers left long ago. What is owed is owed to the people of the EU now.
".....European leaders began making efforts to contain the potential damage..."
Damage **to what** ??
A prepositional phrase might add some clarity to assessments about the situation.
To the prospect of German and French banks squeezing blood from a Greek corpse for the next 30 years?
Damage **to what** ??
A prepositional phrase might add some clarity to assessments about the situation.
To the prospect of German and French banks squeezing blood from a Greek corpse for the next 30 years?
55
No banks involved but the central bank.
Only 5-10% is held in privita hands anymore, the rest is eiither european taxpayers, or world taxpayers(via the IMF)
Only 5-10% is held in privita hands anymore, the rest is eiither european taxpayers, or world taxpayers(via the IMF)
So, to those who applaud the results of this vote, i ask one question.
How do you propose Greece is able to fund their bloated welfare state?
How do you propose Greece is able to fund their bloated welfare state?
What happens next is really unknown. Greece was destined for difficult times regardless of the vote. Europe appears to have forgotten their history - war reparations imposed on Germany after WW I were not payable, and the resulting economic chaos and hardship were a large factor in the political instability that lead to the Third Reich. While Greece certainly is to blame in part for their situation (too much tax evasion, retiring too early, bloated and inefficient government for example), the mindset that increasing austerity will somehow result in growth and improving the situation is difficult to understand. Additionally, the banks kept lending - Greece's problems haven't been a secret. Everyone needs to share some pain. Creditors are going to have to suffer losses. In addition, one of the big problems with the Euro Zone is that individual members have no ability to devalue their currency, which would have been appropriate in Greece's situation. Instead, member countries are left to the mercy of other member states to essentially make monetary policy for sovereign nations. Once can understand why the Greek people voted the way they did.
26
I just about fell off my sofa laughing at the thought of the Greeks being even vaguely capable of creating the sort of manufacturing economy that Hitler had at his disposal. Face it, Greece should NEVER have had the same currency as France and Italy, much less Germany. They're only lucky the UK isn't in the mix...
I hope the Greeks get what they voted for.
18
Now, the question is will both sides negotiate a solution that actually resolves the problem? Yes, Greece should not have borrowed so much, BUT why were the lenders willing to continue making loans? Recognizing that Greece did not have the economic capaicity to repay was not rocket science. Finance involves risk--that is, sometimes investors lose money. If there was no possility of loses, then the anticipated returns on investments would not be justified.
So, it is time that the lenders, as well as Greece, except their share in the losses of this fiasco. Greece needs an economic plan capable of generating revenues that exceed obligations, and the resources to implenement that plan. Because almost all of the creditors are poitical entities, the politicians involved must forego idealogy and face economic reality. Greece will continue to feel squeezed economically, but the rest of the EU must necessarily take a "haircuut" as well.
So, it is time that the lenders, as well as Greece, except their share in the losses of this fiasco. Greece needs an economic plan capable of generating revenues that exceed obligations, and the resources to implenement that plan. Because almost all of the creditors are poitical entities, the politicians involved must forego idealogy and face economic reality. Greece will continue to feel squeezed economically, but the rest of the EU must necessarily take a "haircuut" as well.
12
Well yes, your solution is right but it is simplistic. Easily said, rolling trippingly from the tongue, but how? Greece has no industry, no large production of agro-goods (OK, olive oil) but nothing on the horizon that creates value added products that can generate cash for exports.
The time for talking is over. Europe and the banks will walk away from Greece and write off 100% of their prior financial assistance. The Greeks are on their own.
I think Chancellor Merkel et al ought to find a more constructive way to make their (moralistic) point and get on with a deal that can allow Greece's economy to recover. They can deal with moral hazard some other way than worsening Greece's problems, it seems to me.
20
It would be interesting to hear what Chancellor Merkel has to say on lending to European countries in distress, and whether this foreign economic policy is going to continue. For some reason, it reminds this person of being approached by a financial adviser who cautioned not to be emotional when making a transaction. The one you are promoting with your fee, is far more expensive than the moderate one I have in heart and mind, was my reply.
I've had dealings with the Germans, in Germany, and I come from that stock, as well -- attenuated now by about 145 years n America, but despite that remove my father's family still held to a lot of the folkways. I certainly wouldn't ever presume to lecture them on "moral" behavior, because they have their very definite ideas of what constitutes such behavior (quite despite at least one notable exception). What you regard as "more constructive", and even what I may, doesn't affect their worldview a whole lot.
Refusing to tax Germans, French, Dutch, Finnish taxpayers to rescue Greece yet again is not a "moralistic" point. The "moral hazard" is that if more industrious and responsible taxpayers have to foot the bills of others, what is to stop other EU countries from doing exactly the same as Greece. Float bonds you have no intention of honoring assuming you can vote for other countries to bail you out repeatedly.
Thanks to the Greek voters -- for showing us how it's done.
46
Yup, they really showed EU how it's done.
Grit your teeth and keep up a bare minimum of fiscal discipline in order to get into EU. Once in, splurge like there is no tomorrow, celebrate by holding the Olympics -- all the while dodging taxes and electing governments that cooked the books systematically. Once it's clear that they can never pay back what they have borrowed, "democratically" choose the path to default all the while blaming Germany for lending them the money. The implication is EU should have had special treatment for Greece as an irresponsible junior member and slapped them from time to time when they came to borrow mo' money -- like the drunk at the bar.
Yes, Greece really showed those poor fools in Eastern Europe how it's done, those East Europeans who are poorer than the Greeks and were happy to join EU to get a chance to work hard towards prosperity.
Grit your teeth and keep up a bare minimum of fiscal discipline in order to get into EU. Once in, splurge like there is no tomorrow, celebrate by holding the Olympics -- all the while dodging taxes and electing governments that cooked the books systematically. Once it's clear that they can never pay back what they have borrowed, "democratically" choose the path to default all the while blaming Germany for lending them the money. The implication is EU should have had special treatment for Greece as an irresponsible junior member and slapped them from time to time when they came to borrow mo' money -- like the drunk at the bar.
Yes, Greece really showed those poor fools in Eastern Europe how it's done, those East Europeans who are poorer than the Greeks and were happy to join EU to get a chance to work hard towards prosperity.
33
You're wrong in as much as you blame only Greek politicians and not the EU politicians (the lenders) who share responsibility. But regardless of the past the reality today is that austerity wrecks economies and makes repayment economically impossible. Trickle down is voodoo and doesn't work. Merkel was really proposing putting every Greek in debtor's prison for life and causing a situation where no goverment of any party could rule the anarchy.
For showing how *what* is done? Making their stay in the Eurozone even more of a gift from other European countries / lenders .. or leaving it entirely? Seems like the nations that pay their bills end up being the bad guys every time.
This referendum, is akin to asking the frogs in a pond if the pond should be drained. At one time, democracy was by voting limited to the intelligentsia. What Tsipras promises, nobody can deliver, and yet the country votes for him and for his ideas. I am really sorry to say this, but the Greeks deserve what their country has become.
By all means, stay in the euro. But buy your money on the open market, rather than demanding it from the more responsible citizens of Europe.
By all means, stay in the euro. But buy your money on the open market, rather than demanding it from the more responsible citizens of Europe.
25
I love Greek civilization...it's history, style of government, philosophy, science, food and it's people. If only they could put to practice what they gave the rest of the world.
17
This is so true. They seem to have lost all of that!
Worth remembering that their major contributions were all well over 2,000 years ago. It's actually remarkable how little they've done on any front since.
The ball is in Merkel's court. Will she save Europe or cater to German banks?
20
The "German banks" are actually the Central banks of Germany, France, UK, EU, and even the IMF. In other words, the bond holders are taxpayers outside of Greece. So the real question is will Merkel do the EU's bidding or will she respect her constituents' position on how much more money they are expected to hand over to Greece? My guess is that she will respect the wishes of those she governs over the elitists in Brussels.
What? German banks don't hold any Greek government debt anymore. Almost no non-Greek banks have much business there anymore. There are no German banks to save. The question is - will Merkel send more German taxpayer money after the one she already sent there without any hope of getting it back. And the democracy question: Will the German people be asked about what should be done?
The banks are owed almost nothing. All of this debt is to countries and to the EU citizens. The banks left long ago. Through solidarity the EU bought up the debt and kept financing it. Now the people of the EU are stuck with this.
Frankly, you have to admire the Greeks giving Angela Merkel the collective finger.
55
It would be more admirable if the other hand wasn't held out waiting for free money.
And thereby solving all their financial and economic problems. I am lifting a glass of White Zinfandel to those clever Greeks who know how to solve a problem when they see it !
Hopefully this will drive the UK to leave the EU completely. No country has dragged down the EU more than the UK.
2
Why do you say that? The UK is not part of the Eurozone (for once Mrs Thatcher was right).
The Greeks' rejection of austerity is the first nail in the coffin of monetary union. A single currency among independent states is a fallacy in spite of the governing body of the EU whose foundation is now shaken to the core.
Greece should now prepare to be outside of the euro zone. Renegotiation for a better bailout terms is foolhardy.
Greece should now prepare to be outside of the euro zone. Renegotiation for a better bailout terms is foolhardy.
19
Yippee! The Greeks told the banksters where to put their loan papers. Come what may in the short term, Greece will be better off. Now if the rest of the "PIGS" countries (Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain) — as they are so arrogantly referred to by the European neoliberals and the American neoccons — will follow suit, the economic bullying will stop and democracy can be reborn, not steadily eroded by the 0.01%.
Here's two ideas: 1) A Nobel prize for Tsirpas (never happen, although it should) and 2) a Mare Nostrum Mediterranean Union of the GIPS (could happen). Maybe if France is really nice, it could be invited into the Mare Nostrum. Germany? Belgium? England? Yneh!
Here's two ideas: 1) A Nobel prize for Tsirpas (never happen, although it should) and 2) a Mare Nostrum Mediterranean Union of the GIPS (could happen). Maybe if France is really nice, it could be invited into the Mare Nostrum. Germany? Belgium? England? Yneh!
22
Yee haa. The people of the EU gave Greece 500 billion since it joined, in convergence funds, subsidies, and haircuts. That does not count the bonds that the EU bought. Now tens of millions of EU citizens that are poorer than the average Greek will never see that investment in them. It is a real victory for something. I am not sure what.
this is a ridiculous post. the Greeks have essentially voted to be allocated money generated by Germans and the other productive members of the Euro. They say: we've already reached our credit limits, we will not pay back what we've borrowed, but keep giving us money so we can retire at 50 while you work into your 60s.
I think you are really out of touch. I'm not a fan of European "austerity" but so the Greeks told the "banksters" where to put their loan papers? Maybe the Greeks should not have agreed to the loans in the first place.
Regardless how the vote went down the Greeks still need massive funds to just feed themselves. Where is this new money going to come from? There isn't a banker in the world that will allow the Greeks to borrow money on a continuing basis without it being ever paid back.
36
The cradle of democracy will probably turn to communism now. I mean, people have to eat somehow.
I think Greece went by the wayside when it ENTERED the Eurozone. Best thing that can happen is they go back to the drachma.
12
But what will the drachma buy? Oil? Food? They'll get no more credit and they import everything. If they do borrow again inn another currency and the drachma is devalued, they will owe more than they do now.
The drachma would not be a convertible currency. They can't operated in a trade union with soft money.
Really?? Their debt to GDP ratio was the highest of ALL EU countries BEFORE they entered the Eurozone.
We shouldn't be too self-satisfied about the Greek's economic problems. The U.S. is the largest debtor nation in the world. It may be sooner than later when other countries that buy our bonds demand payment - and not in our freshly printed fiat dollars, but gold. See what happens when that hits the fan...
12
The U.S. holds little gold. The Germans asked for theirs back several times, the excuses given as to why this could not happen were laughable.
A Greek default could well be a trigger event with serious implications for the world economy.
You can't print trust.
A Greek default could well be a trigger event with serious implications for the world economy.
You can't print trust.
Debt bad...gold good...run government like a country store...be afraid...really afraid...think barter economy, subsistence farming...stockpile cigarettes and bourbon...that's the only thing that will be worth anything "when it hits the fan"
Our per capita debt is not nearly as bad as Greece.
Could it be in the interest of both, The United States and Europe’s economies, including Greece’s, for the U.S. to consider opening up Free Trade between the continents? Perhaps based on the fact that Europe has similar Minimum Wage as the U.S., or a certain percentage of it, which would lead to more fair business competition between all sizes businesses in both regions?
You have to love the Greeks and Puerto Ricans for finally doing what is right. They called out investors and creditors for what they really are at times, predators. This isn't to say that they did not borrow and spend irresponsibly, but like the United States did just before the mortgage crisis, banks were too inclined to lend almost anyone the easy money that government provided recklessly. Both are equally at fault. Would you lend $10,000 to someone in distress? If you did, and they didn't pay you back, who is really to blame? I applaud Greeks who rejected the vote. The European Union enabled Greek debt to spiral out of control and is complicit at the very least. Expect an agreement to be reached, Europe as a whole will absorb some losses on the debt, and the common currency will survive. The lesson learned? All lending and investing involves risk.
39
The predatory citizens of the EU gave Greece 600 billion in gifts such as the cohesion funds, subsidies, and took a haircut (forgave loans). The private banks left in 2010 and the EU took over propping up bonds on top of that 600 billion in free money. You have to hate the predatory EU citizens. It is wonderful to see 5 million voters in Greece stick it to the 300 million other members of the EU, many of whom are poorer than the average Greek. Go Greece!
The lesson is going to be learned when anyone with a savings watches it half, as it did in Cypress. There will be no medicine or food on the shelves, as that will require euros. The system of employing 40% of the population by the Greek government is over as well. In your rush to point the finger at the big bad banks, you overlooked these details. The real risk is the one the Greeks took both voting for Syriza originally and voting No today.
Both are equally at fault. Would you lend $10,000 to someone in distress? If you did, and they didn't pay you back, who is really to blame?
Both are equally at fault? That right there is the root of the insanity. Who is to blame? The one who borrowed the money and knew they couldn't pay it is to blame! There are always people offering us things we can't afford. What "distress?" No one was starving and dying of hunger. People looked around them at those who were wealthier and said "I want what they have." Someone dangled money in front of them and like fools they grabbed it. Now they have to pay the price.
Both are equally at fault? That right there is the root of the insanity. Who is to blame? The one who borrowed the money and knew they couldn't pay it is to blame! There are always people offering us things we can't afford. What "distress?" No one was starving and dying of hunger. People looked around them at those who were wealthier and said "I want what they have." Someone dangled money in front of them and like fools they grabbed it. Now they have to pay the price.
Hhmmm, have been thinking about traveling to Greece, maybe next summer. Prices should be dirt cheap. Like vacationing in Central America....
6
Society of beggars, that explains it all. Think about it, the Greeks have come by the idea that if you borrow money, you need not pay it back. On Monday, I will call my mortgage banker, claiming I am Greek and therefore entitled to have the bank cancel my mortgage. Do you think they will agree to cancel my debt?
44
Yes, if you can't pay your debt your protected by US bankruptcy law.
Of course not--they already sold your loan to someone else...someone who didn't see the risk lending you involved.
Better, I suppose, to subscribe to the idea that you can lend money to whomever you like, not caring whether they can pay you back, because you'll make a fortune off the interest and your too-big-to-fail bank can use its lackeys in the government to squeeze every last penny out of the debtor, even though you were just as irresponsible in making the loan as the debtor was in taking it. Whatever happened to responsible banking--and to the idea that banks should assume some of the risk in making loans to parties who may not be able to pay it back?
Lemme get this straight: Greece lied about it's financials to get into the EU, borrowed more money than it could ever hope to pay back, had to be bailed out twice - but the EU is the bad guy??? My sympathies for the actual Greek people affected by this but stop demonizing the people paying Greece's bills.
87
Finally a voice of reason. Alas though I believe we are out numbered. God help this country survive the next twenty years if the comments posted here are a reflection of how the average voter thinks.
3
Good for Greece.
I am glad that many of my fellow commenters are reminding everyone else of the forgiveness of German debt, and the failure of Germany to make full financial restitution--since no other restitution is possible--for the horrors inflicted on Greece in WWII.
I am sorry that so many commenters seem to forget or be unaware of what the Greeks suffered postwar, and how long it takes to rebuild a country when there is no Marshall Plan for it.
I*m glad Germany is a strong, prosperous, democratic nation now, with excellent social values. But I value the strength, courage and resiliency of the Greek people, and think they deserve a little more than to owe their collective souls to the bankers of the world forever.
If the American people had to pay for the crimes and stupidities of our leaders over the decades, we*d all be roasting in hell. Remember that when you excoriate the Greeks for refusing to bear those burdens now.
I am glad that many of my fellow commenters are reminding everyone else of the forgiveness of German debt, and the failure of Germany to make full financial restitution--since no other restitution is possible--for the horrors inflicted on Greece in WWII.
I am sorry that so many commenters seem to forget or be unaware of what the Greeks suffered postwar, and how long it takes to rebuild a country when there is no Marshall Plan for it.
I*m glad Germany is a strong, prosperous, democratic nation now, with excellent social values. But I value the strength, courage and resiliency of the Greek people, and think they deserve a little more than to owe their collective souls to the bankers of the world forever.
If the American people had to pay for the crimes and stupidities of our leaders over the decades, we*d all be roasting in hell. Remember that when you excoriate the Greeks for refusing to bear those burdens now.
54
What are you referring to? Greece and Turkey were the first major recipients of Marshall Plan aid and were already getting aid from the Truman administration.
What has WWII got to do with anything? Today's Germans have no more responsibility for WWII than you do, unless you harbor some pretty bizarre (racist?) theory of collective guilt.
And if you are going to bring WWII into the story, at least get it right. You say: "so many commenters seem to forget or be unaware of what the Greeks suffered postwar, and how long it takes to rebuild a country when there is no Marshall Plan for it."
No Marshall Plan? The first substantial aid under the Marshall Plan went to Greece and Turkey in January 1947.
And if you are going to bring WWII into the story, at least get it right. You say: "so many commenters seem to forget or be unaware of what the Greeks suffered postwar, and how long it takes to rebuild a country when there is no Marshall Plan for it."
No Marshall Plan? The first substantial aid under the Marshall Plan went to Greece and Turkey in January 1947.
If you were an American (or German or Brazilian) exporter selling widgets to the Greeks, would you take worthless drachmas in payment? What would you do with them? Where can you offload them? When Greece wants foreign oil, or medical supplies, or food products, they will have to pay in US dollars or euros. And they will get those currencies .... where?
34
I hoped for a yes if only to spare the Greek people from what comes next.
austerity was terrible and should have been relaxed, true, but it was a walk in the park compared to the process of extracting themselves from the Euro.
Someone in a previous comment compared it to the crisis in Iceland. Well, let's think about that. During the height of that crisis I had a friend working with the Icelandic government to manage the day to day fall-out of the freeze on currency transactions with the Icelandic crown. There were literally top level government meetings to debate how to use the dwindling supply of foreign currency. "yes, we will buy petrol, but do we buy toothpaste? Or beef? Or diapers?" (Iceland, even smaller than Greece, must import a large fraction of the goods consumed by the populace)
Now imagine that the freeze takes far longer and in the process you need to introduce a new currency which is likely to be heavily devalued initially. Their ability to import the many critical supplies they do not make locally will be almost non-existent. Will the diabetics die for lack of insulin? No, I don't think so because basic humanitarian aid will be sent. For the same reason, I do not believe we will see starvation (there is already hunger in Greece), but the pain and deprivation likely during the readjustment may make mere austerity seem the kinder path.
austerity was terrible and should have been relaxed, true, but it was a walk in the park compared to the process of extracting themselves from the Euro.
Someone in a previous comment compared it to the crisis in Iceland. Well, let's think about that. During the height of that crisis I had a friend working with the Icelandic government to manage the day to day fall-out of the freeze on currency transactions with the Icelandic crown. There were literally top level government meetings to debate how to use the dwindling supply of foreign currency. "yes, we will buy petrol, but do we buy toothpaste? Or beef? Or diapers?" (Iceland, even smaller than Greece, must import a large fraction of the goods consumed by the populace)
Now imagine that the freeze takes far longer and in the process you need to introduce a new currency which is likely to be heavily devalued initially. Their ability to import the many critical supplies they do not make locally will be almost non-existent. Will the diabetics die for lack of insulin? No, I don't think so because basic humanitarian aid will be sent. For the same reason, I do not believe we will see starvation (there is already hunger in Greece), but the pain and deprivation likely during the readjustment may make mere austerity seem the kinder path.
14
Except that the "kinder path" would go on and on and on and on ...with no end is that kind? ...what does the Islandic economy look like now?
It is a victory of the rules (kratos) of the common people (demos) :democracy !
"The sun is new each day" ( Heraclitus).
"The sun is new each day" ( Heraclitus).
7
A lot of the comments seem to think that it is the "bankers" that are going to suffer from a default. This is not the case. Since the last bail-out the EU has bought out the bankers, as part of a strategy to minimize future contagion. Almost all of the liability of the Greek government is either owed internally to its own companies or banks, or to the people of the EU. The primary victims to be ripped off either in a default or in a restructuring of Greek debt are the citizens of the EU, including tens of millions who are poorer than the average Greek and will never see this money invested in them. This is no glorious day for socialism or democracy.
36
The Greeks are finished.
Before this is over Greece will join Syria; another failed state destroyed by anarchy.
Before this is over Greece will join Syria; another failed state destroyed by anarchy.
Did the poorest West Germans benefit from reunification? That wasn't cheap either, was it?
Time for the Greece's creditors to write off their loans, and time for Greeks to live within their means. Who will lend them money now?
But it will be the European taxpayer, not the banks that pays for this. The banks sold their debt (with a haircut) to the ECB and European governments a long time ago.
For the Greeks, the government will only be able to spend money that it collects in taxes. Maybe the patriotic Greeks will finally stop evading taxes! Good luck with that. I think the Greeks are about to find out what real austerity looks like.
But it will be the European taxpayer, not the banks that pays for this. The banks sold their debt (with a haircut) to the ECB and European governments a long time ago.
For the Greeks, the government will only be able to spend money that it collects in taxes. Maybe the patriotic Greeks will finally stop evading taxes! Good luck with that. I think the Greeks are about to find out what real austerity looks like.
35
The greeks have decided to keep their heads high with dignity and said no to the financial corporations. Something the americans should have done in 2008.
15
Yes, pride and arrogance have won out. The temper tantrum continues. But who's going to pay? Good time to buy an island or two, maybe.
1
The Greeks were put into this unsustainable situation (of having a debt of 180% of GDP) by the Eurozone's in 2010, under the pretense of saving Greece they actually saved the Euro (which would have probably collapsed if Greece left in 2010).
The sad result was an unsustainable debt and a crushed economy (over 50% youth unemployment).
But now comes the crucial decision, will the ECB withhold funds and actively cause a member state to become a failed state, with no money for food or medicine.
If they do withhold funds from Greek banks it will really be the sign that the moral disintegration of the Eurozone has come.
My guess is that Mario Draghi will not agree to become the executioner of Greece, he will begrudge them enough to stagger on and allow proper negotiated settlement which will include debt restructuring.
The sad result was an unsustainable debt and a crushed economy (over 50% youth unemployment).
But now comes the crucial decision, will the ECB withhold funds and actively cause a member state to become a failed state, with no money for food or medicine.
If they do withhold funds from Greek banks it will really be the sign that the moral disintegration of the Eurozone has come.
My guess is that Mario Draghi will not agree to become the executioner of Greece, he will begrudge them enough to stagger on and allow proper negotiated settlement which will include debt restructuring.
5
"The Greeks were put into this unsustainable situation..."
I often hear that one from my students when they don't submit their homework on time.
I often hear that one from my students when they don't submit their homework on time.
What the IMF, ECB and EU do for one member state, like Greece, they must do for all, including Portugal, Spain, Italy and France. If they did that, they would be instantly bankrupt. How can they let Greece off the hook without setting a disastrous precedent ?
I wonder when the citizens of the European Union will wake up to the fact that over a period of years no attempt has been made by Angela Merkel and the IMF to bail out Greece. The real goal of the forced bailouts was to transfer Greek Debt from the Banks to the taxpayers of EU countries, and it has worked. The downside of course is that now all of the citizens of Europe are on the hook for debt which Greece can never pay back, and of course said debt has grown dramatically, while the banks saved themselves.
It doesn't matter in the least to Europe if Greece votes yes or no on the referendum because Greece is now as broke as Puertorico. It should matter to the citizens of the European Nations, that although Greece will be the first to leave, it may not be the last.
Currency Union without political Union was a hairbrained scheme, which only a team of Saints could have pulled off. These taxpayers of Europe, when they do wake up, will as their first conscious act want to punish Greece, then it will probably be just a matter of time before they recognize the anti democratic nature of the beast which is the Troika, and conclude that this is not what they bargained for when they surrendered their national currencies to Brussels.
Angela Merkel and the IMF may have been a tad short sighted in their handling of Greece, but bankers count for a lot more than people in the grand scheme of things. It's just that the hoi polloi aren't supposed to recognize the true nature of the game.
It doesn't matter in the least to Europe if Greece votes yes or no on the referendum because Greece is now as broke as Puertorico. It should matter to the citizens of the European Nations, that although Greece will be the first to leave, it may not be the last.
Currency Union without political Union was a hairbrained scheme, which only a team of Saints could have pulled off. These taxpayers of Europe, when they do wake up, will as their first conscious act want to punish Greece, then it will probably be just a matter of time before they recognize the anti democratic nature of the beast which is the Troika, and conclude that this is not what they bargained for when they surrendered their national currencies to Brussels.
Angela Merkel and the IMF may have been a tad short sighted in their handling of Greece, but bankers count for a lot more than people in the grand scheme of things. It's just that the hoi polloi aren't supposed to recognize the true nature of the game.
10
Greece needs to default, leave the monetary union, reestablish the drachma, and devalue the it to restore competitiveness and eventually growth to this broken economy. Make Greece the cheapest place in the world to travel and do business and you'll see how quickly capital flows back into the country.
Oh yeah, one more thing: they need to figure out how to collect taxes too.
Oh yeah, one more thing: they need to figure out how to collect taxes too.
To all who hail the referendum as the quintessential democratic measure that legitimizes the current Greek government. There are 18 other countries in the Eurozone. Now lets have a referendum in the Netherlands and Germany for example and see what the people and tax payers of those countries say about bankrolling a country that has no functioning tax system.
The NYT on 1/5/13:
One study by researchers from the University of Chicago and Virginia Tech estimated that tax evasion costs Greece about $37 billion a year, equivalent to nearly 15 percent of economic output. The study found that doctors, engineers, accountants and lawyers were “the primary tax-evading occupations.”
This was a referendum that played to the emotions of the people by invoking national pride and was void of any self criticism.
A debt restructuring has to come but only if the Greek government and the people do their part as well.
The NYT on 1/5/13:
One study by researchers from the University of Chicago and Virginia Tech estimated that tax evasion costs Greece about $37 billion a year, equivalent to nearly 15 percent of economic output. The study found that doctors, engineers, accountants and lawyers were “the primary tax-evading occupations.”
This was a referendum that played to the emotions of the people by invoking national pride and was void of any self criticism.
A debt restructuring has to come but only if the Greek government and the people do their part as well.
213
Ironically, those you cite as the tax evaders are the ones who predominately voted yes. They weren't the ones being squeezed.
Maybe if the European powers showed the slightest concern about the Greek economy and the Greek people, the situation would improve.
No one is doubting that Greece has been irresponsible with their debt and their tax system. Their political system and their civic culture has been broken for a long time.
But it seems like the greatest need right now is to stop the hemorrhaging of the Greek economy. When their debt has increased almost 100% since the start of the austerity program and unemployment has become stratospheric, it's clear that whatever benefits austerity was supposed to bring about are not showing up. Let's do whatever is necessary to get the economy stabilized -- and then maybe the appetite for reform will make an appearance in Greece.
No one is doubting that Greece has been irresponsible with their debt and their tax system. Their political system and their civic culture has been broken for a long time.
But it seems like the greatest need right now is to stop the hemorrhaging of the Greek economy. When their debt has increased almost 100% since the start of the austerity program and unemployment has become stratospheric, it's clear that whatever benefits austerity was supposed to bring about are not showing up. Let's do whatever is necessary to get the economy stabilized -- and then maybe the appetite for reform will make an appearance in Greece.
"Now lets have a referendum in the Netherlands and Germany for example and see what the people and tax payers of those countries say about bankrolling a country that has no functioning tax system."
No doubt they will vote: "Quick them out" - which will precipitate the already endemic debacle of the Euro. Whatever the soo-smart Eurocrats decide will be watched closely by Italy, Spain and Portugal.
No doubt they will vote: "Quick them out" - which will precipitate the already endemic debacle of the Euro. Whatever the soo-smart Eurocrats decide will be watched closely by Italy, Spain and Portugal.
Don't like the rules "imposed by the outside"....but lack qualms about taking the euros provided by the same "outside". Spain, Ireland etc lived with austerity and made significant progress in fixing their respective economies. So, what makes the Greeks special? Perhaps its this sort of belligerence that got them in this predicament?
15
belligerence and the active and substantial presence of communists in their midst
Great.
So, they don't need to borrow money to stay solvent anymore?
So, they don't need to borrow money to stay solvent anymore?
20
I think you meant "liquid," not "solvent." We passed "solvent" quite a while back.
good for Greece! Above all, good for them in rejecting the creditors' efforts to change their government, and to micromanage their tax policies in a way that coincides with the "international consensus" against taxes on "job creators".
perhaps now, debt relief can start -- and a good starting point would be writing off all debt derived from or related to the Olympics. or perhaps the IOC, Comcast/NBC, and Olympic sponsors would, in a gesture of healing, agree to assume and repay it. after all, they -- not the Greek people -- were its primary beneficiaries.
perhaps now, debt relief can start -- and a good starting point would be writing off all debt derived from or related to the Olympics. or perhaps the IOC, Comcast/NBC, and Olympic sponsors would, in a gesture of healing, agree to assume and repay it. after all, they -- not the Greek people -- were its primary beneficiaries.
5
Wow, finally we will get a real world example of how well progressive economic policies, Democrat policies, of spend spend spend and blame the rich (in this case Germany) works. The Greeks will be drastically short of food and living in refugee camps by the end of the summer.
13
Not really what happened, of course.
1
Another voice of sanity! Thank goodness I am not alone.
Greece prefers to demand additional borrowing from taxpayers outside the country rather than collect taxes from their own people. The rejection of the bailout is just the latest expression of the misguided idea that there is a free lunch out there.
115
It's called "socialism": what's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable.
1
Wait a second - I have no problem with getting people to pay taxes if in fact they aren't paying their fair share. And as others have commented there's evidence that wealthier Greeks are not paying their fair share of taxes.
That said, there is real pain among the people of Greece. Austerity has resulted in double digit unemployment, a stagnant economy. Pictures of old people crying in the streets, stories of hunger and despair do not reflect well on Europe as a whole.
Continuing to inflict misery on people who have nothing to give is cruel as well as counterproductive, and it's also totally uncivilized.
That said, there is real pain among the people of Greece. Austerity has resulted in double digit unemployment, a stagnant economy. Pictures of old people crying in the streets, stories of hunger and despair do not reflect well on Europe as a whole.
Continuing to inflict misery on people who have nothing to give is cruel as well as counterproductive, and it's also totally uncivilized.
Additional borrowing? They don't need more borrowed money - nor will they get any. They should just tell their creditors to sod off.
Greeks reject austerity, and also EU? When does the Greek government address their own serious issues of fraud on social services, tax evasion and tax fraud, "brown envelope" fraud? When do they tell the people of Greece that as a nation we have to become law abiding good citizens? When to they tell the guy still working at 83 to support his unemployed grown children that he's not in it alone?
I am more sorrier for Greece today than I was yesterday. I fear they are being led by a very immature and inexperienced leadership down the wrong path. Rhetoric and sloganism only get you so far, and for Greece, this is as far as that takes them, their No vote. Greek leadership have promised new better deal within 48 hours. I hope they're right, but I have large doubts.
I am more sorrier for Greece today than I was yesterday. I fear they are being led by a very immature and inexperienced leadership down the wrong path. Rhetoric and sloganism only get you so far, and for Greece, this is as far as that takes them, their No vote. Greek leadership have promised new better deal within 48 hours. I hope they're right, but I have large doubts.
89
When? Never.
What happens next is political fragmentation and institutional paralysis as the edifice of the state, and Greek society itself, dissolve in an ocean of want; no credit, extreme poverty.
What happens next is political fragmentation and institutional paralysis as the edifice of the state, and Greek society itself, dissolve in an ocean of want; no credit, extreme poverty.
Correction: Roosevelt DIED before Potsdam. Who excluded Greece from behind the Iron Curtain? Just a legend...
I do now see how they can stay with the Euro now, and I have absolutely no idea how conversion to their own currency would work. And, their PM does not think that the 'no' vote meant they would have to exit the Euro.
Whatever happens, somehow I think that they will prevail and not become a third world country. In any case I think that with less (or no) austerity, the people themselves will live better.
The key is the government. Will they steer things whatever the conditions towards the peoples' welfare as best they can? With a government like that, resources will get allocated in that direction and the people will be a well off as possible to the degree of the governments capabilities. I think this is a likely scenario. One thing is for sure, most of the voters are happy now.
Whatever happens, somehow I think that they will prevail and not become a third world country. In any case I think that with less (or no) austerity, the people themselves will live better.
The key is the government. Will they steer things whatever the conditions towards the peoples' welfare as best they can? With a government like that, resources will get allocated in that direction and the people will be a well off as possible to the degree of the governments capabilities. I think this is a likely scenario. One thing is for sure, most of the voters are happy now.
2
It seems the Greek people (at least 60 percent of them) don't know or have forgotten their beloved Aesop's story of the ant and the grasshopper. I think the younger folks commenting also need to read that story. Alot of wisdom in it.
Ed Burchianti
Ed Burchianti
14
Ed wrote: "It seems the Greek people (at least 60 percent of them) don't know or have forgotten their beloved Aesop's story of the ant and the grasshopper. I think the younger folks commenting also need to read that story. Alot of wisdom in it."
Ed, you need to do more resarch on The Grasshopper and The Ant. Aesop had a counter-fable, in which the ant got to be a ant by being a greedy human farmer, who, not satisfied with his own farm's output, plundered the crops of his neighbors and was punished by the gods by being turned into an ant.
The counter-narratives to this fable has existed for hundreds of years, as the scholarship on The Grasshopper and the Ant attests. Most of these fables reject the simplistic view of the fable that Ed and the other moralists want us to believe and explain that improvidence is far from the only, or even the most important cause of poverty. (We hear this in Republican candidates constantly contrasting the supposedly hard-working rich and the lazy poor.) For example, Jacob Lawrence's drawing features a weeping grasshopper before an ant going to lock his storeroom. Somerset Maugham, James Joyce, and John Ciardi all wrote versions of the fable where the grasshopper is shown as more "human" than the soulless ant.
The story ends with the grasshopper dying of hunger, which gives the ant his moral satisfaction. Apparently there are a number of people who take pleasure in watching fellow human beings suffer. Those people love this fable.
Ed, you need to do more resarch on The Grasshopper and The Ant. Aesop had a counter-fable, in which the ant got to be a ant by being a greedy human farmer, who, not satisfied with his own farm's output, plundered the crops of his neighbors and was punished by the gods by being turned into an ant.
The counter-narratives to this fable has existed for hundreds of years, as the scholarship on The Grasshopper and the Ant attests. Most of these fables reject the simplistic view of the fable that Ed and the other moralists want us to believe and explain that improvidence is far from the only, or even the most important cause of poverty. (We hear this in Republican candidates constantly contrasting the supposedly hard-working rich and the lazy poor.) For example, Jacob Lawrence's drawing features a weeping grasshopper before an ant going to lock his storeroom. Somerset Maugham, James Joyce, and John Ciardi all wrote versions of the fable where the grasshopper is shown as more "human" than the soulless ant.
The story ends with the grasshopper dying of hunger, which gives the ant his moral satisfaction. Apparently there are a number of people who take pleasure in watching fellow human beings suffer. Those people love this fable.
At school in France, our young heads were crammed with poetry and drama from 7 to 17, and it is the most curious thing but the ant and the grasshopper is the only tale I remember, and it is the grasshopper that keeps my sympathy in this moral tale.
The only remaining banks that need to be bailed out are the Greek ones, and the Greek government has no money to do so. It's a bankster-hater's dream come true.
17
While the solution to Greece's problems are complex, it seems to me that the responsibility for the current turmoil fall heavily on the country's creditors. Like a person who's unable to live within a set budget, the creditors provided fast cash well beyond the ability of Greece to repay without practically destroying the country's economy. Just imagine that the growth rate has shrunk 25% since 2008! That is a number indicating full-on DEPRESSION. To expect them to go on cutting public expenditures while their tax base shrinks and their repayments grow is simply absurd. Of course the Greeks are partly to blame but, as happened in this country with easy cash, bad loans usually result in bankruptcy. The only hope for extricating themselves out of this mess is for the Greeks to forgo the euro and reintroduce a currency that they can devalue which will begin to stimulate growth once more. In the very short term further hardships might be expected but in the long run I think it's the only way for Greece to emerge with a semblance of normalcy and health. PS - SHAME on the Europeans (Germans and French especially) for allowing the fantasy of European UNITY to disintegrate before the eyes of the world. Now it's clear that a Greek and a German have about as much in common with each other as they do with the man in the moon.
11
You seem to suffer from the misconception that an unstable, inflation-and-devaluation-prone currency is a good thing for the Greeks. It surely won't be to Greek savers, investors, pensioners and retirees. It is a way of robbing them.
I'm completely stoked by the decisiveness of the decision. The Troika was clearly shoving it down their throats with an intransigent negotiating style and locked-in positions. Why can't the powerful finally realize that you can't break the will of a people and carpet bomb them into submission, and that there is a limit to the foreign intrusion that a proud people will accept.
Our press in the US ran with stories that placed the blame directly on Syriza and Tsipras. For the most part, the folly of Troika and the wealthiest of the Eurozone nations was overlooked by our media. But no surprise, as Troika and the mega-corporate controlled US media are on the same side.
Joseph in Missoula
Our press in the US ran with stories that placed the blame directly on Syriza and Tsipras. For the most part, the folly of Troika and the wealthiest of the Eurozone nations was overlooked by our media. But no surprise, as Troika and the mega-corporate controlled US media are on the same side.
Joseph in Missoula
19
So I guess "no more foreign intrusion" means no more funds from the rest of Europe, and no more lifeline for the Greek banks from the European Central Bank? Remember that the negotiations over the past months have not been over whether Greece was to get debt relief and how much, but of how much more bailout money Greece was going to get.
I'm fine with Greece going it on its own - but I don't understand the argument that now Europe has to give Greece better terms because the Greeks have voted. Surely what would be required for a "triumph of democracy" is that the Germans, Dutch, Finns, Latvians, etc should now also be allowed to vote on how much more money they want to extend to Greece.
I'm fine with Greece going it on its own - but I don't understand the argument that now Europe has to give Greece better terms because the Greeks have voted. Surely what would be required for a "triumph of democracy" is that the Germans, Dutch, Finns, Latvians, etc should now also be allowed to vote on how much more money they want to extend to Greece.
Is a limit to the foreign money that a proud people will accept, too?
It appears not.
It appears not.
To the Greeks:
I didn't think you would vote this way, though I hoped you might. The whole world should take pride in your courage. You have stood up to the austerity freaks and their vicious, defeating theories.
It is obvious that the debt burden was too much for a small country to ever pay. And attempting to force the payment of these debts through austerity just made matters so much worse. It was time to say, "Enough is enough!" I commend your bold stand on principle. Even the IMF maintains that debt forgiveness is the right policy.
I hope that now the rest of the euro zone will realize that things have to change, that austerity must be thrown out as a tool for economic development and progress. May you prosper in the future.
I didn't think you would vote this way, though I hoped you might. The whole world should take pride in your courage. You have stood up to the austerity freaks and their vicious, defeating theories.
It is obvious that the debt burden was too much for a small country to ever pay. And attempting to force the payment of these debts through austerity just made matters so much worse. It was time to say, "Enough is enough!" I commend your bold stand on principle. Even the IMF maintains that debt forgiveness is the right policy.
I hope that now the rest of the euro zone will realize that things have to change, that austerity must be thrown out as a tool for economic development and progress. May you prosper in the future.
27
..."in their vicious, defeating theories. Please include the IMF, an American institution, in your accusations! The only reason the IMF wants Europe to forgive the debt is so IT can collect the debt from Greece. What a joke!
The EU should play hardball if Greece doesn't agree to a payment plan. Let's watch how well it works if all Greek flagged ships get stopped and held as collateral for loans.
10
Yeah give the banks the money! Starve the people!
1
Greek flagged ship means no more than California registration for a car. If it meant more than that then Liberia would be a wealthy country instead of the cheapest least regulated place to register a ship.
1
Angela Merkel made the same mistake as the French with the Germans after World War 1: not to allow a desperate country to repay its debt as rapidly as she decided they should. As a condition of the treaty between England, France, and Germany following WW1, Germany was to pay reparations to the British and French for the war the Germans had started.
The Germans had been devastated by the war, so no matter whose fault it was, their economy could not generate enough money to pay the strict reparations insisted upon. The result was that the German economy crashed and led to Hitler's rise in power. The French never seem to learn from their enormous economic mistakes, as they support Merkel's stiff penalities on the Greek government right now. The Greeks cannot cut spending further without causing their limping economy to crash. So the Greeks are right to go off the Euro, and Merkel has missed her chance to be a great leader, as Franklin D. Roosevelt was. Franklin was wise enough to listen to Keynesian economic theory and realize that the best way for the US and England - and France - was to help Germany rebuild its physical infrastructure and economy by assistance from the Allies. Roosevelt's Marshall Plan even went further - saving countless people from starving after the peace. Angela has proved herself most of all a German House Frau, penny wise and pound foolish. Too bad USSR physicists were not required to study history and economics in the USSR when Angela went to college.
The Germans had been devastated by the war, so no matter whose fault it was, their economy could not generate enough money to pay the strict reparations insisted upon. The result was that the German economy crashed and led to Hitler's rise in power. The French never seem to learn from their enormous economic mistakes, as they support Merkel's stiff penalities on the Greek government right now. The Greeks cannot cut spending further without causing their limping economy to crash. So the Greeks are right to go off the Euro, and Merkel has missed her chance to be a great leader, as Franklin D. Roosevelt was. Franklin was wise enough to listen to Keynesian economic theory and realize that the best way for the US and England - and France - was to help Germany rebuild its physical infrastructure and economy by assistance from the Allies. Roosevelt's Marshall Plan even went further - saving countless people from starving after the peace. Angela has proved herself most of all a German House Frau, penny wise and pound foolish. Too bad USSR physicists were not required to study history and economics in the USSR when Angela went to college.
16
I agree with your criticism of Merkel, but I must correct your flawed understanding of what transpired, financially, in the aftermath of WW One.
Very simply, the demand that Germany pay reparations payments to FRance and Britain did not wreck the German economy and give rise to Hitler. The problem with the reparations payments was solved, pursuant to the Dawes Plan, in 1924 or 1925. Per this plan America loaned money to Germany to enable her to pay Britain and France. The crisis was resolved. The German economy, in the late Twenties, was booming. Germany's economy eventually did collapse, but this was triggered by the 29 Wall Street Crash and the ensuing World Wide depression.
Very simply, the demand that Germany pay reparations payments to FRance and Britain did not wreck the German economy and give rise to Hitler. The problem with the reparations payments was solved, pursuant to the Dawes Plan, in 1924 or 1925. Per this plan America loaned money to Germany to enable her to pay Britain and France. The crisis was resolved. The German economy, in the late Twenties, was booming. Germany's economy eventually did collapse, but this was triggered by the 29 Wall Street Crash and the ensuing World Wide depression.
(Mostly) German and French banks lent to the Greeks without doing their due diligence evaluating risk. The complaints we hear today of Greece having (among) the lowest tax collection rates in Europe and the "overly generous" retirement plans were there when these banks made the loans.
In 2010 the Troika (Euro Community, IMF, ECB) chose to underwrite the banks 100% for the bad loans that they made instead of holding banks (bank managers and shareholders that hired them) accountable by making them take a significant discount as was suggested by some of the smaller countries in the IMF. But Merkel, the French, and major IMF shareholders insisted on not holding the banks accountable and paid the 100%.
All this accomplished was to transfer the bad decisions of the French and German banks onto taxpayers. German taxpayers should be angry, but not at the Greeks, but at Merkel for not holding bankers accountable and for making taxpayers cover the bad decisions of bank managers 100%.
Winners: French and German bank managers and shareholders.
Losers: German and other taxpayers.
The only thing for the German people to do is to fire Merkel and elect someone who protects taxpayer interests over those of incompetent bank management and the shareholders that hired them.
In 2010 the Troika (Euro Community, IMF, ECB) chose to underwrite the banks 100% for the bad loans that they made instead of holding banks (bank managers and shareholders that hired them) accountable by making them take a significant discount as was suggested by some of the smaller countries in the IMF. But Merkel, the French, and major IMF shareholders insisted on not holding the banks accountable and paid the 100%.
All this accomplished was to transfer the bad decisions of the French and German banks onto taxpayers. German taxpayers should be angry, but not at the Greeks, but at Merkel for not holding bankers accountable and for making taxpayers cover the bad decisions of bank managers 100%.
Winners: French and German bank managers and shareholders.
Losers: German and other taxpayers.
The only thing for the German people to do is to fire Merkel and elect someone who protects taxpayer interests over those of incompetent bank management and the shareholders that hired them.
147
German taxpayers should be angry, but not at the Greeks, but at Merkel for not holding bankers accountable and for making taxpayers cover the bad decisions of bank managers 100%.
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You seem to be forgetting that the Germans have their monies in the German banks, and any action of stiffing the banks by Merkel would hurt them just the same. You appear to be a medical doctor who knows not much about finance. I am a certified financial planner and can see where Merkel was going with her decisions. She is not a doctor of philosophy for naught.
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You seem to be forgetting that the Germans have their monies in the German banks, and any action of stiffing the banks by Merkel would hurt them just the same. You appear to be a medical doctor who knows not much about finance. I am a certified financial planner and can see where Merkel was going with her decisions. She is not a doctor of philosophy for naught.
David,
What is it about the law of supply and demand that you fail to understand. We live in a world where countries like Germany and China must extend credit to provide any kind of demand for their goods. Our economic system is broken beyond repair and the Greeks are simply the canary in the mine. If there were enough Greeks with enough money to purchase all the excess Mercedes the Germans produce we would not be having this discussion, Greece's crime is that it didn't have the capacity to triple or quadruple its debt because of the nature of its economy.
What is it about the law of supply and demand that you fail to understand. We live in a world where countries like Germany and China must extend credit to provide any kind of demand for their goods. Our economic system is broken beyond repair and the Greeks are simply the canary in the mine. If there were enough Greeks with enough money to purchase all the excess Mercedes the Germans produce we would not be having this discussion, Greece's crime is that it didn't have the capacity to triple or quadruple its debt because of the nature of its economy.
Agreed. Once again, banks make poor bets and taxpayers (at least outside of Greece) pay their bills. Why are countries always negotiating on behalf of banks and taking over their losses?
How can we spend 1.5 trillion dollars with more yet to come in the middle east and not come to the aid of Greece. Have the German bankers really won World War II for them with their typical rule based rigidity. We help our states, like Kentucky, and Alabama. Shame on the Europeans for not doing the same.
10
Actually, the Europeans HAVE done the same. True, Greece's debt is the equivalent of 180% of its GDP, but in 2 previous bailouts the troika reduced interest rates and extended repayment dates so that the cost of Greece's debt service is among the lowest in Germany.
If the Europeans don't go on and on doing the same thing, it's because they know they are shoveling more money down a rathole.
How is the weather in Athens?
If the Europeans don't go on and on doing the same thing, it's because they know they are shoveling more money down a rathole.
How is the weather in Athens?
Over the years, the people of the EU has given Greece about $500 billion of gifts in the form of the cohesion fund, subsidies, and a haircut on loans to Greece. This amount does not include the lesser sum that was lost by private bankers and investors. It also does not include the bonds that the EU holds because no-one else wants them. The people of the EU are entitled to ask their leaders what did they get for this money? Why was it spent on Greece, when there are poorer regions of the EU? It is hard to see how the governments of the Eurozone or the EU, all of which would have to approve a new bailout, are going to show the required unanimity. It is a disaster for the people of Greece who are largely hard-working and honest, and poorly served by a series of dysfunctional governments, of which this one adds the feature of being delusional.....unless this government intended all along to exit the Euro, in which case my hat is off. It was executed brilliantly.
11
Michael, you are aware, aren't you, that the vast majority of this money did not go to Greece, but circulated back into the hands of the banks and rich investors. The purpose of much of this spending was to keep the banking system solvent and avoid a collapse of the bond market.
1
Under EU demands, Greeks had reduced pensions from $1,350 to $924, but had offered to reduce them by .5% ($4.60/mo) in the latest round of negotiations while the EU had requested a reduction of $9.24/mo. Given that most of Greece's youthful unemployed could seek jobs in the EU as long as Greece remains a member, this vote to save $4.60/mo onpensions may have been penny-wise but pound foolish.
5
While the Greek vote may hurt my 401k and other market investments, I laud the Greeks for telling the banksters to go to hell.
Its too bad that we don't have politicians with similar backbone.
Its too bad that we don't have politicians with similar backbone.
15
They haven't told bankers to go to hell at all. In fact - Tsipras will be talking to the EU and the ECB on Monday negotiating a bank-bail out for Greece right away.
1
Good for the Greeks. Austerity only benefits the wealthy.
17
I am not sure why the Greeks look so happy about their NO vote in the referendum. They may have just voted themselves out of the Eurozone and maybe the EU. The result itself is hardly surprising (or particularly noble). What do you expect people to say if you ask them whether the should repay their debts?
10
@Ajs3, London
Finally... A comment from someone with the big picture in mind ....
Finally... A comment from someone with the big picture in mind ....
Bravo Greece! Let the IMF take a hike! They enslave countries around the world with interest payments alone! When the .01% possess 50% of the wealth of the planet - austerity is an insult! Sure some of the Greeks don't pay taxes and there is corruption (feed each other) but what about the millions who worked hard for 30-40 years, paid into the pension system - you are going to punish them in the their last years on earth? Horrible and sadly typical of the cold greedy corporate culture that are big banks and multinational corporations that are taking over the world but the cradle of Western civilization has now said - no - we will not accept your unfair conditions of austerity for further help out of a crisis. God bless Greece and all who rebel against the evil greedy corporate culture!
16
As one comment said, we should thank them for showing the rest of us how to do it.
The .01%ters are trembling at the possibility of the Greek rebellion going viral, causing nations to demand better deals from the corrupt lenders.
The .01%ters are trembling at the possibility of the Greek rebellion going viral, causing nations to demand better deals from the corrupt lenders.
It looks that giving any more money to Greece would be now insanity. The Greek Nation proudly announced to the World that they are always eager to take money but will never pay the debt back.
22
No, this blanket accusation is not true.
Greek wages have been cut, pensions have been cut, budgets for public services have been cut and taxes have been increased for the past 4 years... all to service the national debt and interest payments to creditors. Youth unemployment is approaching 50% and pensioners pay utilities and taxes for their unemployed adult children. Add to this, waves of refugees from collapsing communists countries in the 1990s and from middle east conflict countries for the past decade. And yes, Greece, like all nations has had corrupt leaders who manipulate rules to enrich and empower themselves at the expense of society.
Perhaps the Greek citizens are saying that austerity, corruption and outsiders' manipulation of their economy is not working. Perhaps they wish to try something else that may work better.
Greek wages have been cut, pensions have been cut, budgets for public services have been cut and taxes have been increased for the past 4 years... all to service the national debt and interest payments to creditors. Youth unemployment is approaching 50% and pensioners pay utilities and taxes for their unemployed adult children. Add to this, waves of refugees from collapsing communists countries in the 1990s and from middle east conflict countries for the past decade. And yes, Greece, like all nations has had corrupt leaders who manipulate rules to enrich and empower themselves at the expense of society.
Perhaps the Greek citizens are saying that austerity, corruption and outsiders' manipulation of their economy is not working. Perhaps they wish to try something else that may work better.
Throughout this crisis, I'v been waiting for a facts about and an analysis of what Greece's alleged financial irresponsibility is about. We've heard that lots don't bother paying taxes, but that's about all. There's been lots of reportage about pensioners only getting dribs of their pensions, but there's been no reportage on what these pensions are for. Are the pensioners mostly government retirees, or are they from across the economic board? At what age were these pensioners permitted to retire, in their early or mid-50's or 10 years later, as in the US? The press' reportage on the economics behind the current crisis has been woefully inadequate, and that, unfortunately, includes The Times.
14
The real tragedy here is the number of comments castigating Greece that display a shocking ignorance of basic economics and history.
13
It isn't a problem that you borrow money, lie about it, and then decide not to pay it back?
2
The Greek people didn't do that, and the creditors bear some responsibility too. The fact is Greece can't pay it back. Period. The IMF admits as much.
What about that European country that racked up enormous debt trying to conquer Europe militarily, and yet after the war, the creditors, including Greece, forgave it so that country wouldn't fall apart in endless depression? Does that ring a bell?
What about that European country that racked up enormous debt trying to conquer Europe militarily, and yet after the war, the creditors, including Greece, forgave it so that country wouldn't fall apart in endless depression? Does that ring a bell?
I can't believe that people call this a victory for democracy. Yes, Greece voted - but what about the other 18 member states of the Euro? Greece citizens say they want the money with less restrictions - but again - what about the citizens of the 18 other Euro countries? Don't their citizens also get a vote? Or do some people understand under democracy that only those countries get to vote who happen to agree with you?
And by the way - there isn't really a need to have a referendum about the Greek bailout in e.g. Germany. Any proposal by the government for additional funding would so soundly be defeated that they would never put this to a vote. Everyone who calls this a democratic victory seems to ignore that if the people of the other countries were asked - they would have stopped the money long ago.
The question of money for Greece was never one that could be answered by a referendum. Especially not with the question that was asked that boiled down to: Do you want money under the conditions of the EU or the same amount of money with fewer strings attached (at least if you believe Tsipras). But that is not a valid question - of course people want the money with less requirements.
Sometimes I really wonder what is wrong with many people.
And by the way - there isn't really a need to have a referendum about the Greek bailout in e.g. Germany. Any proposal by the government for additional funding would so soundly be defeated that they would never put this to a vote. Everyone who calls this a democratic victory seems to ignore that if the people of the other countries were asked - they would have stopped the money long ago.
The question of money for Greece was never one that could be answered by a referendum. Especially not with the question that was asked that boiled down to: Do you want money under the conditions of the EU or the same amount of money with fewer strings attached (at least if you believe Tsipras). But that is not a valid question - of course people want the money with less requirements.
Sometimes I really wonder what is wrong with many people.
20
Thank you Greece! As usual, you are leading the way to democracy! This time it's economic democracy! Demand that the rich of Europe and the rest of the world pay their fair share.
9
What about slovenia and other countries that are poorer then greece yet still have to pay?
3
Greece can demand all they want, but who would lend them money, when they have no intention of repaying it?
Or is freeloading off others now a part of democracy?
Or is freeloading off others now a part of democracy?
And if you read the Times' typically elites-biased pre-election coverage you would have thunk the Greeks were polarized but leaning yes for years more of austerity.
7
I am amazed at these comments that somehow the EU shoved all this money down the unwilling throats of the Greeks. It amazing how the guy who kept the money can see himself as the total victim
22
This always happens whenever people become dependent upon the state. That old quote about running out of other people's money is as true now as when it was first said.
3
I don't know if this was fortunate or unfortunate, because I don't know what those terms can mean at this point. But millions of Greeks voted courageously and proudly against further humiliation at the hands of the global 1% in the forms of the ECB, the IMF and various other external creditors. And I have to salute that. In the end, I suspect, it will become an important turning point toward greater democracy in Europe -- whether Greece stays in the Union or not. I extend a hand to the Greeks on our own Independence Day weekend.
11
Why against the 1%? You think the 1% will pay for the money that is not repaid by Greece? Much more likely are budget cuts in the other 18 member states. Everyday people in the other 18 countries will pay for it, not the 1%.
1
A tiny nation like Greece, showing the world, and the charlatans, who want us to believe we can't live without them, just found out that when the people are cornered, they can be very dangerous.
At this moment, Merkel, along with several others, including the United States government, are huddling trying to develop a stratedgy to contain the disaster and prevent fear from roiling the markets.
Europe miscalculated by thinking it could sway the Greeks by castigating the only leader who sought to give them back the pride Germany and the bankers stole from them.
Times are a changing, and the thieves currently in control are finding out that their plans are no longer as secret as they would like them to be.
There is cold hard fear in the ranks of the ruling elites, especially in Europe, fear, that the fear, they have been creating in the ranks of the masses, has been found to be no more than a paper tiger, toothless, aghast, that it has been exposed.
At this moment, Merkel, along with several others, including the United States government, are huddling trying to develop a stratedgy to contain the disaster and prevent fear from roiling the markets.
Europe miscalculated by thinking it could sway the Greeks by castigating the only leader who sought to give them back the pride Germany and the bankers stole from them.
Times are a changing, and the thieves currently in control are finding out that their plans are no longer as secret as they would like them to be.
There is cold hard fear in the ranks of the ruling elites, especially in Europe, fear, that the fear, they have been creating in the ranks of the masses, has been found to be no more than a paper tiger, toothless, aghast, that it has been exposed.
11
Mel
You write that the elites are now experiencing "cold, hard fear."
They are not experiencing any such thing.
This is not a tremendous surprise; it is just considered part of the price of doing business and they will move on. If the Greeks refuse to cooperate on their terms then they will keep on changing terms until finally, the Greek people are ground down and so pulverized with the economic disaster they have brought upon themselves, that they will beg for relief.
I don't like this scenario but I know these people. They never, ever lose.
As long as they are in charge of everything, which they long ago arranged to be, then they will never feel the pain that the Greeks or others are feeling and will continue to feel.
When the banks close in Greece, when their credit cards cease to function, when there is no more food, gasoline, no more money to pay workers, no more people who can afford to pay for goods and services, the creditors, like vultures will keep on circling back, again and again, with their hirelings, until they get Greek resources, properties, gold, anything.
They are much bigger and more powerful than this tiny nation and ultimately they will get their way.
This is just a tiny gnat waiting to be squashed, in their eyes.
You write that the elites are now experiencing "cold, hard fear."
They are not experiencing any such thing.
This is not a tremendous surprise; it is just considered part of the price of doing business and they will move on. If the Greeks refuse to cooperate on their terms then they will keep on changing terms until finally, the Greek people are ground down and so pulverized with the economic disaster they have brought upon themselves, that they will beg for relief.
I don't like this scenario but I know these people. They never, ever lose.
As long as they are in charge of everything, which they long ago arranged to be, then they will never feel the pain that the Greeks or others are feeling and will continue to feel.
When the banks close in Greece, when their credit cards cease to function, when there is no more food, gasoline, no more money to pay workers, no more people who can afford to pay for goods and services, the creditors, like vultures will keep on circling back, again and again, with their hirelings, until they get Greek resources, properties, gold, anything.
They are much bigger and more powerful than this tiny nation and ultimately they will get their way.
This is just a tiny gnat waiting to be squashed, in their eyes.
The best thing for Greece was exactly how the Greek people voted: no. Yes, they will see hardship, but they would anyway. Now, at least the Greek people have reclaimed their dignity and in a way, their soul which will make bearing the financial burden tolerable by virtue of their national commitment and reclaiming their place as human beings, not beggars or debtors. Very few can function rationally when squeezed under a boot. Because of this vote, they are standing. Greece has a long and wonderful history. It's the western birthplace of the humanities and democracy itself, which in character, makes her less inclined to value hard, cold capitalistic cash over human concerns. The Greek people will manage and ultimately prevail, poorer but ultimately, more content within their own culture and national concerns. I wish Spain would follow suit.
61
The Greeks borrowing irresponsibly and then defaulting is dignity? Have I entered Bizarro world?
2
Greece has a long and wonderful history...of five previous bankruptcies.
The idea of a Unites States of Europe was ridiculous from the outset, adhered to only by countries lacking in self-respect.
Well the people have spoken and taken the advice of the government that they elected. They should make the plans and run their own country. It's like getting in shape, if you want the gain you have to suffer the pain.
10
The Greeks can't compete in the global economy with the same currency values as Germany and other northern European economies. The only way Greece can compete is get out of the EU currency alignment, live with high inflation while there domestic currency seeks economic value to allow the nation to participate in the global economy. Staying with the Euro would never allow that to happen.
11
We should all boycott German goods for a while. Angela Merkel, she who walked over the bridge with nothing in hand, of all people should know what it means to for a nation to be great -- much is given but much is also asked for -- she would not have been walking that bridge had US for decades spent money and blood.
To lead Europe, requires more than being just a bill collector or a banker. Looking at Ukraine and Greece, something she utterly lacks. Where she should have been leading she gives the impression she being dragged into.
In the end, even if Germany will have to give, the process by which it is going to get there, no one is going to thank them for that.
To lead Europe, requires more than being just a bill collector or a banker. Looking at Ukraine and Greece, something she utterly lacks. Where she should have been leading she gives the impression she being dragged into.
In the end, even if Germany will have to give, the process by which it is going to get there, no one is going to thank them for that.
5
Sorry.
I already boycott all German goods...but mostly because Germans just don't sell anything I wish to buy.
I have passed through Germany a couple of times, and spent a couple of nights there.
It was okay, but it's not on my list of future vacation destinations.
I already boycott all German goods...but mostly because Germans just don't sell anything I wish to buy.
I have passed through Germany a couple of times, and spent a couple of nights there.
It was okay, but it's not on my list of future vacation destinations.
You go right ahead. I have been wanting to buy a new German car, and lowered demand from people who think like you might allow me to get a better price.
1
I've been following this ghastly story from afar. To posters praising the No vote, I've read this weekend that 75% of Greeks retire before the age of 61, 35% between 51 and 55, and then they get "off the book" jobs to live high on the hog on borrowed money; In another piece, I read that two other poor Euro countries have much less generous social benefits, and they're in effect subsidizing the Greeks, one of which was Slovakia.
I think Chancellor Merkel should now call her own referendum to let German voters decide whether they want to keep subsidizing Greeks. I'll bet posters praising Greek democracy would be outraged by this move.
I think Chancellor Merkel should now call her own referendum to let German voters decide whether they want to keep subsidizing Greeks. I'll bet posters praising Greek democracy would be outraged by this move.
35
Some European countries have social programs that dwarf those in US, paid vacations/leave and retirement age/benefits come to mind. I read recently that a recent Greek "bailout" was to the tune of $64 Billion USD. Now, "bailout" may not be the best choice of words but with Greek people voting to resist demands from their legitimate creditors, ... I fear for the upcoming economic turmoil in world markets starting tomorrow morning in New York. And someone commented about lenders not doing their 'due diligence' and, Yup but if the funds had not been forthcoming those bankers would have been castigated and blamed for everything up to the assassination of Caesar!
Has anyone else noticed that in polls published in mainstream media organs (including this one), as with the general election in Britain in May, said polls were totally and completely off-base in their projections? They all said it was "too close to call" when in fact the NO vote was well ahead. In the UK election, polls also declared the result too close to call and the UK was heading for a hung Parliament. The Tories instead won an outright majority and Labour was crushed possibly for a generation.
One begins to suspect that the polling organisations, and the media who report the polls, have formulated a process designed to shape results rather than report them.
Either the polls aren't listening to the voters, or are in desperate denial after hearing them.
As for Greece: Spain, Portugal, Ireland . . . they are all in very much the same boat. Perhaps they should hold referenda, also.
The EEC was a very decent idea; the EU was an abysmal one.
Possibly the polls in Britain are also wide of the mark in reporting that the IN vote for the Brexit referendum in 2017 has a comfortable majority. Le Pen in France is already jumping on this, is running for election in 2017, and if that election were held today, would easily be at Hollande. The Danes just gave the Danish nationalist, Eurosceptic, anti-immigration party double the vote share it got five years ago. Hungary is ignoring the EU and building a border fence.
Greece is the first small domino to fall.
One begins to suspect that the polling organisations, and the media who report the polls, have formulated a process designed to shape results rather than report them.
Either the polls aren't listening to the voters, or are in desperate denial after hearing them.
As for Greece: Spain, Portugal, Ireland . . . they are all in very much the same boat. Perhaps they should hold referenda, also.
The EEC was a very decent idea; the EU was an abysmal one.
Possibly the polls in Britain are also wide of the mark in reporting that the IN vote for the Brexit referendum in 2017 has a comfortable majority. Le Pen in France is already jumping on this, is running for election in 2017, and if that election were held today, would easily be at Hollande. The Danes just gave the Danish nationalist, Eurosceptic, anti-immigration party double the vote share it got five years ago. Hungary is ignoring the EU and building a border fence.
Greece is the first small domino to fall.
6
"As for Greece: Spain, Portugal, Ireland . . . they are all in very much the same boat. Perhaps they should hold referenda, also."
Spain did. In regional elections the extreme-right ruling party went from controlling most regional governments, to controlling about half.
Meanwhile two new parties broke the stranglehold of the two traditional parties.
In November Spaniards will elect a new national government. The latest poll is:
Ruling conservatives 22%
Opposition socialists 21%
New Left 20%
New Right 15%
Real democracy has come to Spain. The bankers will not be pleased.
Spain did. In regional elections the extreme-right ruling party went from controlling most regional governments, to controlling about half.
Meanwhile two new parties broke the stranglehold of the two traditional parties.
In November Spaniards will elect a new national government. The latest poll is:
Ruling conservatives 22%
Opposition socialists 21%
New Left 20%
New Right 15%
Real democracy has come to Spain. The bankers will not be pleased.
Today, Greece has another "Oxi Day" to celebrate. It's nice to see the little guy standing up for what's right against an immovable and unaccountable gaggle of EUrocrats for a change. Hope Spain and Portugal follow suit.
7
So, you see it as 'right' for a government to borrow more than they can ever hope to pay back, so they can maintain their welfare state, and then tell those who loaned them the money that it's too bad, but they can't have it?
1
Spain's problems weren't caused by government spending.
Spain's problems were caused by bad loan practices in the private sector and the massive corruption of Spanish politicians, especially in the ruling conservative Popular Party.
However, Spain's conservatives did use the need for austerity to destroy Spain's once world-class health care and educational system.
In regional elections, the two traditional parties got less than 40% of the combined vote.
In current polls, the anti-austerity Podemos (new left) and the anti-corruption (new right) Parties are polling at 35% together, enough to give them a say at the table.
Spain's problems were caused by bad loan practices in the private sector and the massive corruption of Spanish politicians, especially in the ruling conservative Popular Party.
However, Spain's conservatives did use the need for austerity to destroy Spain's once world-class health care and educational system.
In regional elections, the two traditional parties got less than 40% of the combined vote.
In current polls, the anti-austerity Podemos (new left) and the anti-corruption (new right) Parties are polling at 35% together, enough to give them a say at the table.
Its the EZ taxpayer paying for the folly of several Greek governments. Do the citizens of France, Germany and rest get to vote on the Greek bailout? I don't see the results as a win for democracy, I see them as a win for Tsipras. Greeks will now be much poorer, Tsipras will be in power "forever" (because of the "bold" referendum) and Greece will remain a financial train wreck (also forever).
23
How soon the those beholden to the oligarch's forget. Maybe this will jostle Merkel's short memory of how Germany's own powerhouse economy was born through debt relief after WWII.
Time to get out from under the tyranny Greece has been living under. Well done, Greek citizens. You give me hope for my country.
Time to get out from under the tyranny Greece has been living under. Well done, Greek citizens. You give me hope for my country.
11
A historic day. The Greek people have said no to stubborn dogmatic demands from its creditors. Now Tsipras has the power to turn back to Germany and set terms. Greece's offer to creditors should be:
"As the Preliminary Draft Debt Sustainability Analysis (DSA) of the IMF shows, the Greek debt is unpayable. We will offer, only once, to pay 20 cents on the dollar on all our stock of debt. We will make reforms, but only those that allow the Greek economy to grow. This includes productivity enhancement reforms on all input markets, and the strengthening of Greek institutions and the rule of law, not additional austerity. It is in the interest of Europe and the World to have a stable a viable Greece. For this we need to grow, and that will be the sole focus of economic policy in the next five years".
"As the Preliminary Draft Debt Sustainability Analysis (DSA) of the IMF shows, the Greek debt is unpayable. We will offer, only once, to pay 20 cents on the dollar on all our stock of debt. We will make reforms, but only those that allow the Greek economy to grow. This includes productivity enhancement reforms on all input markets, and the strengthening of Greek institutions and the rule of law, not additional austerity. It is in the interest of Europe and the World to have a stable a viable Greece. For this we need to grow, and that will be the sole focus of economic policy in the next five years".
66
'The Greek people have said no to stubborn dogmatic demands from its creditors. Now Tsipras has the power to turn back to Germany and set terms. Greece's offer to creditors should be'
So, you believe that the deadbeat borrower should have the power to set terms of repayment?
So, you believe that the deadbeat borrower should have the power to set terms of repayment?
3
And I would hope the creditors would respond with "we will not advance you another cent until you have paid back 100% of what you borrowed, along with all accrued interest. When that happens, com see us."
1
You should think of the Greeks as thieves. They came into the EU and were able to borrow and live far beyond their means. Far beyond, especially public sector employees. If they can be called that. Absurd pay for the effort. Short hours and early retirement at unsustainable pensions. Then the bills come home and they want to set the terms of restructuring. The bankers - - really the EU itself continued to loan. Really, it is hard to have sympathy for the Greeks. At this point, they should go on their own. Repudiate the debt. Set and devalue the drachma and get used to working from the bottom back up. If they have a work ethic left. Better that than 40 years of penury.
I hope the Bankers who loaned Greece bundles of money thinking they would get it back with interest loose a bundle. I liken it to giving a lung cancer victim a pack of cigarettes.
4
The Greeks did the right thing voting no and ending this 7 year long tragedy in slow motion. Germany should have been wiser and realized this would be the outcome, now Germany is facing the dissolution of the Euro and the end of the "German Economic Miracle" which was based on it adopting a weaker currency while the Southern Euro countries got stuck with a much stronger one.
5
With the referendum under his belt, I suggest that the Greek Prime Minister should now make a counter-offer to the Troika:
(1) A 50% haircut
(2) The remaining 50% of the debt to be paid off over 30 years
(3) That debt to be paid only in those years that Greece runs a trade surplus
(4) Repayments to be limited to 3% of export earnings
If this seems outrageous, these are the exact terms that Greece (and other allies) gave to Germany in the London Agreement of 1953, to cover that latter’s WWI debts and some of its post-WWII debt.
It is widely agreed that this generous German debt agreement was a major factor in the growth of Germany after 1953.
(1) A 50% haircut
(2) The remaining 50% of the debt to be paid off over 30 years
(3) That debt to be paid only in those years that Greece runs a trade surplus
(4) Repayments to be limited to 3% of export earnings
If this seems outrageous, these are the exact terms that Greece (and other allies) gave to Germany in the London Agreement of 1953, to cover that latter’s WWI debts and some of its post-WWII debt.
It is widely agreed that this generous German debt agreement was a major factor in the growth of Germany after 1953.
16
thanks for your post. the "leaders" of the countries count on the people of their countries having no idea of the terms given to the Germans after WWII
Maybe I can go to my bank on Monday and get the same deal - after all - I can argue that Germany got it 70 years ago.
1
'With the referendum under his belt, I suggest that the Greek Prime Minister should now make a counter-offer to the Troika:
(1) A 50% haircut
(2) The remaining 50% of the debt to be paid off over 30 years
(3) That debt to be paid only in those years that Greece runs a trade surplus
(4) Repayments to be limited to 3% of export earnings'
There are major differences.
First, Germany had an industrial base on which to build.
Greece has no such industrial base..
Second, it took far longer than 30 years to pay off, even after the ;haircut' Additionally, only WEST Germany was held responsible for the debt, at least until the reunification of Germany. East Germany paid nothing.
(1) A 50% haircut
(2) The remaining 50% of the debt to be paid off over 30 years
(3) That debt to be paid only in those years that Greece runs a trade surplus
(4) Repayments to be limited to 3% of export earnings'
There are major differences.
First, Germany had an industrial base on which to build.
Greece has no such industrial base..
Second, it took far longer than 30 years to pay off, even after the ;haircut' Additionally, only WEST Germany was held responsible for the debt, at least until the reunification of Germany. East Germany paid nothing.
The Greeks enter a crucible in which a sustainable economy can be forged if they work together. The vote ought also to be a reprimand to bankers and investors who take advantage of corrupt politicians that there are risks and consequences to blindly pursuing only a financial bottom line. Good investments consider the well being of more than just the shareholders.
3
GREEKS just gave the Germans and the Euro the "Perfect Excuse" to Expel them from Euro and hopefully from the EU.
THE Greeks Lied to join the Euro and kept Lying till the Music Stopped.
THEY already have had Major Debt Writedowns, are the Largest Recipient of the EU Aid and Shame on them for mooching off some Poor East European Countries so to keep their Culture of Corruption and Tax Evasion Alive.
GERMANS and the Eurozone countries "Must End this Greek Circus", Take A Loss and Move On.
THE Greeks Lied to join the Euro and kept Lying till the Music Stopped.
THEY already have had Major Debt Writedowns, are the Largest Recipient of the EU Aid and Shame on them for mooching off some Poor East European Countries so to keep their Culture of Corruption and Tax Evasion Alive.
GERMANS and the Eurozone countries "Must End this Greek Circus", Take A Loss and Move On.
23
Except there are some bleeding hearts in Germany that want to hand Greece free money regardless. Maybe the German taxpayers who have to work until August until the money is theirs, can throw out the liberal rascals?
Agree with most of what you say, with one exception. There MUST be punishment for defaulting else there is no reason for any country to pay back its debts.
Freezing the overseas assets of all Greeks is a good place to start.
Freezing the overseas assets of all Greeks is a good place to start.
Christine Lagarde said it best -- she has more sympathy with African children than tax evaders in Greece.
The Greek people have rejected the loan shark terms of the banks: We own you and you will pay forever without hope of ever recovering. We have seen so often in recent history that strangling an economy in the throes of depression is a formula for economic disaster. The downside for the Eurozone is that Greece may be showing the way for other countries who are in a very similar position. For the banks this may make no difference, but the political leaders of the Eurozone have a far greater responsibility and they have failed miserably.
68
They rejected the loan shark terms of the banks?
Sorry, but the terms were in no way akin to that of a loan shark.
The creditors wanted Greece to make changes, so that the loans that they would continue to need would not default.
Greece wants the money, but does not want to change the way they do things.
And that will simply lead them to default again.
So, let Greece figure how they are going to afford their welfare state.
The words of Margaret Thatcher ring true, again.
Sorry, but the terms were in no way akin to that of a loan shark.
The creditors wanted Greece to make changes, so that the loans that they would continue to need would not default.
Greece wants the money, but does not want to change the way they do things.
And that will simply lead them to default again.
So, let Greece figure how they are going to afford their welfare state.
The words of Margaret Thatcher ring true, again.
1
We forgave the enormous loan to the Brits and French in the beginning of the 1930's. President Calvin Coolidge famously said, "They hired the money, didn't they?" Later administrations said we would forgive the loan which was tied to the debt owed by Germany for damages in WWI. Germany collapsed under the debt from France and Britain. Out of that collapse came Hitler. And the rest, as they say, was history. After WWII, we helped our former enemy AND all of western Europe. That's one of the reasons there has been no war today. We helped Europe, didn't expand the destruction.
So easy to say the Greeks should go back to the drachma. Does anyone have any idea what that means? So easy also to say you want an end to 'austerity'. But what does that mean? I sympathise totally with the ground-down Greek people. If I were Greek (and lived in Greece, unlike most of the Greeks I know) I might have voted No. But the European position, badly promoted as it has been, isn't wholly stupid or incomprehensible. I've yet to see any American, eminent economist or not, try to figure out what it means to be Slovak or Latvian or indeed Irish - countries poorer than Greece that put themselves through the wringer and are now being asked to grant what they regard as indulgence to the Greeks. It won't be easy to secure their assent to debt forgiveness - this is not an abstract economic problem, but a difficult political one. No-one would now wish the euro into existence, but no-one wants to leave it. No-one has any idea how to abolish it. So the Greeks and the Europeans with find themselves across a table discussing the same things. Maybe technocratic elites are awful. But maybe democracy, and what we now call 'populism' do sometime produce dumb outcomes. Maybe in the end some form of compromise, however disguised, will get us through. Maybe that';s a kind of wisdom -but not one appealing to the crowds in Syntagma Square. Let's hope wisdom is not in short supply - otherwise there will be much more misery in Europe, not just in Greece.
12
If Germany and the rest of the European Union decline to be their sugar daddies, Greeks very soon will be asking one another, "Remember those days of plenty under the austerity conditions?"
25
I hope Merkel and Hollande plus the Austrian PM, latter who has very little skin in the game should Greece default paying to the Europeans, finally realize that they are dealing with perennial dead-beats. Try to get money here when you don't have a job and so no way to repay? Good luck on that. But Greece has been living off others for many years now. Yes, common people suffer. What else is new? Americans who lost their jobs suffer too. Does anyone remember them? Greece is a third world country, as such it has no place in Europe.
If there was ever an example of how countries are not corporations and can't be negotiated with as if they were, it is Greece's referendum and subsequent "No" vote. I don't remember that covered in "Getting To Yes".
7
Let Greece figure their own way.
Greece is soon to be Europe's Venezuela
Greece is soon to be Europe's Venezuela
Ok. Amazing. Courageous!!!! Thank you for calling the bluff.
We are in!!! So... How can we stand behind the Greek people???
We are in!!! So... How can we stand behind the Greek people???
10
Seriously - PR is in a bigger hole than Greek - currently their debt to GDP is 68% or over two-thirds.
PR will stand behind Greek all right - in the soup kitchen line.
PR will stand behind Greek all right - in the soup kitchen line.
Loan them your own personal funds!
Much of the US is willing to let Puerto Rico go its own way, as the country is a burden to taxpayers and nothing has changed in more than 100 years.
When you arrive with hat in hand begging for money, best not to spit on those willing to lend to you.
When you arrive with hat in hand begging for money, best not to spit on those willing to lend to you.
Another Greek tragedy in the making
9
Another Greek tragedy?
What is the previous Greek tragedy to which you are referring?
What is the previous Greek tragedy to which you are referring?
If Greece had restructured (privitization, get rid of business red tape, get rid of excess civil servants and early retirement ages), the Germans would have given them the debt relief.
28
Spain went through painful times but now they are on the mend. Why should the European community give more money to a country that is unwilling to make necessary changes to get its own house in order? Let them go. They need to be on their own.
P.S. Try to pull these stunts with the Chinese!
P.S. Try to pull these stunts with the Chinese!
I rejoice at the news. The Greeks are rediscovering their valor and nobility.
The no vote was a vote against German economic imperialism, against a sick sort of Globalism that is sweeping the world in the form of TPP and other horrendous trade agreements, against the reign of the ugly oligarchs and their usurpation of democratic rights.
As I wrote in one of my poems:
Their money is all stolen
Their work is all bogus
My hate is quite molten
My gun is in focus
The no vote was a vote against German economic imperialism, against a sick sort of Globalism that is sweeping the world in the form of TPP and other horrendous trade agreements, against the reign of the ugly oligarchs and their usurpation of democratic rights.
As I wrote in one of my poems:
Their money is all stolen
Their work is all bogus
My hate is quite molten
My gun is in focus
8
And this was a no vote to economic stability and realism.
They cannot afford to support the welfare state that they want.
And other nations are no longer going to pay for it.
They cannot afford to support the welfare state that they want.
And other nations are no longer going to pay for it.
1
Really? It seems your beggar man (Greece) has turned thief.
To quote Rhett Butler in Gone With the Wind: “All we (The South) have is cotton and slaves and arrogance.” All the Greeks have is Figs, Cheese and Tourism. They have sealed their fate with this “No” vote. I have no sympathy for the EU devil but this is a “Fort Sumter” moment for Greece. The Greeks will rue this “No” vote for years if not decades to come.
22
Let the Greeks go their own way! Europeans work too hard and too long to continue to bail out lazy left leaning people who seem to think that they have some type of right to continued support. As for the danger that Greece will move into the Russian sphere, western naval bases are becoming less vital given more modern war technology. As for the danger that Greece will cause financial panic in the rest of the EU if it is expelled from the euro, if not the EU, the rest of Europe will prosper even more without this continued drag on its finances.
75
"As for the danger that Greece will move into the Russian sphere, western naval bases are becoming less vital given more modern war technology."
Oh yes. The war with ISIS is being won...because of modern war technology.
No allies are needed.
Really?
Oh yes. The war with ISIS is being won...because of modern war technology.
No allies are needed.
Really?
From the polo club no less...
1
Who will prosper, the Germans? Will Portugal, Spain or Italy prosper? Will Slovakia prosper, will Ireland prosper? Let us see...
It would be interesting to see what happens if tomorrow Angela Merkel asks for a referendum asking the German people if they want to continue bailing out the Greeks. Would that be an expression of democracy too?
22
She can't do that because the German people would say no to bailouts but Obama wants her to say yes..for selfish geopolitical reason
Great idea.
What's ahead? Political chaos and another Regime of the Colonels?
3
To vote 'yes' was to give into fear of the unknown; to vote 'no' was to hope for the future. The people of Greece have shown great courage in the face of crushing adversity. I sincerely wish them all the best.
13
Ok, allow me to ask a question.
How do the Greeks hope to pay for the welfare state they seemingly want to continue into the future?
How do the Greeks hope to pay for the welfare state they seemingly want to continue into the future?
1
The inventors of democracy have demonstrated, unequivocally, that the ballot-box is more powerful than the combined might of capitalist financial institutions. Perhaps we in this country can take the Greeks' example and vote for a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, when 2016 rolls around.
10
This should be the international day to celebrate freedom in the future
The parallel is not accurate. A slightly closer parallel would be that Mississippi has just said it will not pay what it owes to the federal government while insisting that the federal government continue to transfer the tens of billions that it currently transfers to this relatively poor state. In the case of Greece, almost all the external debt is to the other people of the EU.
However, our country could decide to vote for people who have an expansionist agenda because we own the printing presses for our money. We would have to decide how much money to print without undermining the value of the currency.
However, our country could decide to vote for people who have an expansionist agenda because we own the printing presses for our money. We would have to decide how much money to print without undermining the value of the currency.
No, rather, they have once again demonstrated that democracy tainted by demagoguery descends to ochlocracy -- mob rule.
How paradoxical, Greece is being hammered because it cannot earn enough money to repay its loans whilst the ECB prints as much unearned money as it wants, gives it away like confetti and has the audacity to call it money!
Well done Greece!
Well done Greece!
8
A lot of that confetti is sent to Greece. Also, every country including the US prints money to cover its debts. It is standard practice.
Once again the Greeks have demonstrated they are irresponsible and reckless. Their judgment remains clouded by their hubris. Yes, there were once the cradle of western civilization; but that was more than two thousand years ago. In the intervening two millennia what have the Greeks done for the benefit of Western Europe to merit the largess they demand.
And, then, there are the raft of stupid, ill informed comments such as Greece 1, Bankers 0 -- as if the banks will suffer. Most of Greece's government debt is either held by its own banks or by the ECB, other European governments or special purpose vehicles (controlled by the EU) to assist the Greek government. By urging the public to vote no, Tsipras has guaranteed Greece's banking system will collapse. And the public's refusal to compel its politicians to enact the micro-economic, regulatory, tax and entitlement reforms agreed upon is tantamount to flipping the bird to the other EU citizens. Since much of the ownership of Greek government debt has been effectively socialized it is the average man and woman on the streets of Paris, Bonn, Helsinki, Amsterdam and other large cities and small villages across the continent who will bear the ultimate cost if the Greeks refuse to honor their obligations.
Is this fair? No. Anyone who believes otherwise is a slave to the demagoguery Syriza is peddling. Greece may have shown it is not a nation of beggars, but it is becoming a nation of thieves.
And, then, there are the raft of stupid, ill informed comments such as Greece 1, Bankers 0 -- as if the banks will suffer. Most of Greece's government debt is either held by its own banks or by the ECB, other European governments or special purpose vehicles (controlled by the EU) to assist the Greek government. By urging the public to vote no, Tsipras has guaranteed Greece's banking system will collapse. And the public's refusal to compel its politicians to enact the micro-economic, regulatory, tax and entitlement reforms agreed upon is tantamount to flipping the bird to the other EU citizens. Since much of the ownership of Greek government debt has been effectively socialized it is the average man and woman on the streets of Paris, Bonn, Helsinki, Amsterdam and other large cities and small villages across the continent who will bear the ultimate cost if the Greeks refuse to honor their obligations.
Is this fair? No. Anyone who believes otherwise is a slave to the demagoguery Syriza is peddling. Greece may have shown it is not a nation of beggars, but it is becoming a nation of thieves.
29
Should a country which has 25% unemployment ( the amount in the U.S. Depression of the 1930's) still have more unemployment and more cuts to the pensions of those to old to work? What would you suggest? Sounds like more austerity.
"This is not a society of beggars. "We will not be blackmailed."
I have always admired the Greeks. At this point, that feeling is soaring. They are standing up not only for themselves, but for the other beleaguered countries of Southern Europe.
I have always admired the Greeks. At this point, that feeling is soaring. They are standing up not only for themselves, but for the other beleaguered countries of Southern Europe.
21
It just seems like they are standing up for not paying their debts. Not something to be proud of.
The money is owed almost exclusively to the people of the EU. The private bankers got out long ago. It is a funny sort of "standing up" to demand more bail-outs at the expense of these other southern neighbors.
1
The Greeks want a free lunch and the EU refuses to give it to them. I side with the EU.
Well Greece must now be the favourite holiday destination, because when the bill comes, You can just say no.
And its another bailout for the wealthy, because Greece could pay off their debt, if everyone paid their taxes. But now the bill has come, and the rich have moved their money out of the country, and left the rest to take the fall.
And its another bailout for the wealthy, because Greece could pay off their debt, if everyone paid their taxes. But now the bill has come, and the rich have moved their money out of the country, and left the rest to take the fall.
65
Greece is not on the top of my list. But someone I may visit Greece; nothing about a NO vote would cause me to NOT go there. Millions of western tourists visit dictatorships like Egypt and Thailand. But somehow defying the bankers is THE worst possible sin, worse than mass murder or genocide, to the typical westerner.
The US Left here must be quietly shaking at the prospect of this vivid example of what big government and ridiculous borrowing and spending can do being shown on the sheeple's TV for all to see
Now there is a comment that is "spot on." The rich!!! No kidding. The 1% of Greece. Is there is moral there? Me thinks there is.
Now, more than ever I wish to visit the cradle of democracy and see a poorer, but prouder people. Plus, they could use the money. Yassas!
19
More than 30 Britons and Germans are dead because they decided to vacation in Tunisia, which is in the middle of a civil war.
Condolences to their families. They didn't deserve their fates.
I'm sure most went to Tunisia simply because it was cheaper than going to Portugal, Italy, Greece or Spain. But many Germans and Britons simply didn't want to help out a fellow European country with their business...even though if they had vacationed in Portugal, Italy, Greece or Spain, they would still be alive today.
The European Community, faced with threats from Russia, the collapse of Ukraine, ISIS attacks from within, and immigrants pouring across the southern border, have decided that the only things were saving are the bankers' profits.
The EU, not Greece, is dead.
Condolences to their families. They didn't deserve their fates.
I'm sure most went to Tunisia simply because it was cheaper than going to Portugal, Italy, Greece or Spain. But many Germans and Britons simply didn't want to help out a fellow European country with their business...even though if they had vacationed in Portugal, Italy, Greece or Spain, they would still be alive today.
The European Community, faced with threats from Russia, the collapse of Ukraine, ISIS attacks from within, and immigrants pouring across the southern border, have decided that the only things were saving are the bankers' profits.
The EU, not Greece, is dead.
Well, feel free to take your money to Greece.
But do not put it in the bank.
The government is about to take 30-40% from everyone
But do not put it in the bank.
The government is about to take 30-40% from everyone
The whole debt overhang with European countries needs to be re-negotiated. Aside from Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Cyprus, Italy, Ukraine, and probably other countries have unsustainable debt levels with various banks. It is clear that other countries are going to get into the same situation as Greece so that the sooner the Eurozone countries and the IMF figure out a fair solution, the better.
The Greek 'bailouts' (of 2010 and 2012) were nothing more than ways for the Troika to shift the burden of debt from the banks to the taxpayers. It doesn't appear that the banks took much of a loss in getting that shift. What is clear is that the Greek government got very little of that money and, instead, increased its debt. Consequently its economy continued to shrink with unemployment increasing. The 'No' vote was simply the Greek people saying 'enough' to this strategy.
It's not just austerity which is being rejected but austerity dominated by banks. The German government position has been to protect its banks no matter what. That cannot continue. The members of the EU who are financially weak need to have their economies stimulated, not restricted. Debt write-off is essential. Without that, it becomes a 'lose-lose' proposition for everyone involved because default will become the norm, not the exception.
The Greek 'bailouts' (of 2010 and 2012) were nothing more than ways for the Troika to shift the burden of debt from the banks to the taxpayers. It doesn't appear that the banks took much of a loss in getting that shift. What is clear is that the Greek government got very little of that money and, instead, increased its debt. Consequently its economy continued to shrink with unemployment increasing. The 'No' vote was simply the Greek people saying 'enough' to this strategy.
It's not just austerity which is being rejected but austerity dominated by banks. The German government position has been to protect its banks no matter what. That cannot continue. The members of the EU who are financially weak need to have their economies stimulated, not restricted. Debt write-off is essential. Without that, it becomes a 'lose-lose' proposition for everyone involved because default will become the norm, not the exception.
97
Ukraine is not part of the EU although shares some of the same corruption issues that have plagued Greece throughout this prolonged ordeal. It is not a black and white issue with all the blame resting solely upon the more functional Northern countries calling all of the shots. They just wanted Greece to clean up the corruption, put together some well thought out reforms instead of just spending. Greece has a bad reputation for major tax evasion by the business classes as well as little guys and generous pension funding including allowing people to fully retire at 61 while Germany increased the age to 67. Greece should just cut ties with all of the EU, turn to Russia for a new sugar daddy and see what happens when that big guy asks them for certain favors in the future. Dysfunctional governments need to clean up their act for the health and viability of the entire EU.
1
Mac - no. Big government promised nirvana for the people. Let's see them deliver.
Big Greek government borrowed the money. Let's see them pay up.
The revolution will be televised. Good for the Greeks. They stopped the banks when no one else seemed able to. Now let's see what happens. Hint, the sun will rise tomorrow.
183
The sun may rise but there may be no money in the Greek banks.
1
The sun will rise but there may be no food on the table.
1
The Argentineans said no to the banks already in 2001... They were the first country to claim their dignity.
2
Bravo Greece. And the rest of us can appreciate what a killer austerity is . Hopefully this is the end of the Chicago school of economics and a return to Keynesian principles.
51
The Chicago School is certainly drawing its final breaths. Austerity does not work, standard Keynesian textbook macro policy has worked much better, and reality has discredited absurd theories that were really just a facade for right wing policy opinions. The sad part, of course, has been the incalculable suffering imposed on millions because of stubborn dogma.
I don't think you get it.
Their application of Keynesian principles (spend, and spend some more) is what put them into the point where austerity or default was the only choice.
Their application of Keynesian principles (spend, and spend some more) is what put them into the point where austerity or default was the only choice.
2
...and just when was Keynes abandoned? We've been borrowing and borrowing some more and running deficits in good times and bad.
...and Keynes said the borrowing and the deficits were only for the bad times.
...and Keynes said the borrowing and the deficits were only for the bad times.
I'm so confused by what I'm reading here. Someone please explain to me. How will this vote result in the rest of Europe turning around and saying... hey! The Greeks don't want to pay what they owe! We should just... forgive their debt!... Just... not... sure... that's... how it works...
45
It's easy. The Greeks were given a choice:
1) Accept austerity and high unemployment in perpetuity in order to stabilize European banks and markets (YES), or
2) Accept the possibility of the same austerity and high unemployment, except now the bankers who drove the crisis of 2008 would lose a little, and Greece could chart a new path since obviously, from the Greek standpoint, membership in the eurozone has been a failure. (NO).
NO was the only logical choice.
1) Accept austerity and high unemployment in perpetuity in order to stabilize European banks and markets (YES), or
2) Accept the possibility of the same austerity and high unemployment, except now the bankers who drove the crisis of 2008 would lose a little, and Greece could chart a new path since obviously, from the Greek standpoint, membership in the eurozone has been a failure. (NO).
NO was the only logical choice.
2
Same .... way ... it ... worked ... uh ... here. Two words: jingle mail.
...it doesn't work, except in liberal-socialist fantasyland.
The Greeks don't want to lay their debts, but they still want the creditors to give them more money.
The Greeks don't want to lay their debts, but they still want the creditors to give them more money.
3
Wow - the Greek debtors voted to refuse any more loans from the creditor countries unless those countries abandon attempts to collect the loans they made to Greece during 2010-12 crisis.
I wonder what the German voters would say if offered the chance to lend another 10-15 billion to Greece in exchange for Germans having to pay off most of the 50 billion they previously loaned Greece?
I wonder what the German voters would say if offered the chance to lend another 10-15 billion to Greece in exchange for Germans having to pay off most of the 50 billion they previously loaned Greece?
40
Greece forgave Germany's debt in 1953.
The "loans" Greece was being asked to agree to would have all gone to the creditor banks.
The germans invaded, killed and denigrated the greek society during world war II. The owe them 300 billions in war debt restitutions...
1
I am so glad for the Greeks. I am hopeful the people will live a better lives in the future. I hope in Germany, the employed people get more share in the reward of their high productivity so that there are less capital to look for returns by lending to the Greeks, or the Spanish people or others.
13
The Greek financial crisis has shown the flaw of a single monetary system imposed on countries with very different economies, laws and practices. After watching the failure of austerity programs elsewhere, they did the only thing possible to avoid endless austerity and no growth. By leaving the Euro and devaluing their currency, they have a chance to get back on their feet.
18
Yes and not bring the rest of Euro currency countries down. Good point but the fact is they NEED to leave ....for the betterment of all.
Very glad to see Greeks has decided to go out on their own. They deserve the problems they have made for themselves.
The EU leaders' offer was too good for Greece. Now the EU leaders need to let Greece go. No bailout, just humanitarian aid when the Greeks try to sleep in the bed they have made.
The EU leaders' offer was too good for Greece. Now the EU leaders need to let Greece go. No bailout, just humanitarian aid when the Greeks try to sleep in the bed they have made.
40
Yes, let them go it alone, for it they do not, all of Europe will expect a bailout.
Asking the average Greek citizen to vote "yes" or "no" on this referendum was akin to asking a condemned man: "Do you want to be executed by hanging or by facing the firing squad?" A "no" vote increases the likelihood that the Greek financial system collapses in the very near future whereas a "yes" vote meant kicking the can down the road another 6 to 12 months before financial collapse. The "no" vote probably made more sense because adding on more debt that can never be repaid is pointless.
The larger problem is that the Greek economy cannot sustain an independent country - it does not manufacture anything, even the most basic items. I was quite surprised to find out (after the banks and ATMs were frozen) that nearly all of their medicines and much of their food supply is imported. When civil service jobs comprise nearly 40% of employment in a country you know it is in trouble. These are "make work" jobs that are thoroughly unnecessary and 2/3 of them could probably be eliminated. The early retirements and unrealistic pension promises to these civil servants certainly do not help matters.
The best part of the "no" vote?? It will force Greece and its citizens to look inward and decide if it wants to make the necessary changes that will insure an independent country. My guess? Greece is too fragmented politically for this to happen as part of a democratic process.
The larger problem is that the Greek economy cannot sustain an independent country - it does not manufacture anything, even the most basic items. I was quite surprised to find out (after the banks and ATMs were frozen) that nearly all of their medicines and much of their food supply is imported. When civil service jobs comprise nearly 40% of employment in a country you know it is in trouble. These are "make work" jobs that are thoroughly unnecessary and 2/3 of them could probably be eliminated. The early retirements and unrealistic pension promises to these civil servants certainly do not help matters.
The best part of the "no" vote?? It will force Greece and its citizens to look inward and decide if it wants to make the necessary changes that will insure an independent country. My guess? Greece is too fragmented politically for this to happen as part of a democratic process.
164
Well said
Greece has the world's largest merchant marine, is an exporter of pharmaceuticals, textiles, minerals, a vast array of agricultural products and processed foods, and has a thriving tourism industry.
Greece existed for thousands of years under a drachma and 13 years under a euro. I think Greece will function much better as an independent country, without jobs and opportunities being shifted to Germany under a skewed economic system.
Greece existed for thousands of years under a drachma and 13 years under a euro. I think Greece will function much better as an independent country, without jobs and opportunities being shifted to Germany under a skewed economic system.
Whatever merits/faults of possible deals with creditors, it is most important that Greeks do with their country what they want to do. It is theirs. Living under terms "imposed from outside" might not work, good terms or not.
But this also means they have to sort out their problems themselves. This is what I see they voted for. I see nothing tragic in it. People voted that they want to be responsible themselves. Good.
Will be tough for them - they will have to pay all these pensions etc without external credit.
And Euro zone has to come up with some rules/procedures so it does not get suckered into debts being walked away from next time. Also, all this "solidarity" talk (fund Greece) is fine (I actually agree), just that then the tax policy, tax collection/enforcement, pension rules, health care subsidy rules, energy tax prices etc etc would have to be centrally enforced/decided just as the Euro would be centrally printed/given away. Any takers?
But this also means they have to sort out their problems themselves. This is what I see they voted for. I see nothing tragic in it. People voted that they want to be responsible themselves. Good.
Will be tough for them - they will have to pay all these pensions etc without external credit.
And Euro zone has to come up with some rules/procedures so it does not get suckered into debts being walked away from next time. Also, all this "solidarity" talk (fund Greece) is fine (I actually agree), just that then the tax policy, tax collection/enforcement, pension rules, health care subsidy rules, energy tax prices etc etc would have to be centrally enforced/decided just as the Euro would be centrally printed/given away. Any takers?
13
You mean pay for their pensions with out any money...period!
Who says they'll pay pensions?
Ed: "pay for their pensions with out any money." - Not so bad I think. Greece had (aside loan payments) I believe stabilized budget when Siriza took over. I do not know how hard will be to run Greek economy "cash only" after defaulting internationally, but maybe doable.
Funny thing, Siriza took over the moment Greek budget was breaking even, under slogans "too much of a sacrifice". Now they WILL have to run it at a break-even point - no money from outside. Maybe worse, as there was and will be probably a considerable capital flight. So things will be worse. But maybe not so psychologically - they will run it their own way. This is important - work/sacrifices will be not "for predatory bankers" but certainly for their own. Might work better.
Funny thing, Siriza took over the moment Greek budget was breaking even, under slogans "too much of a sacrifice". Now they WILL have to run it at a break-even point - no money from outside. Maybe worse, as there was and will be probably a considerable capital flight. So things will be worse. But maybe not so psychologically - they will run it their own way. This is important - work/sacrifices will be not "for predatory bankers" but certainly for their own. Might work better.
Nobody should be surprised that the Greeks, who have a habit of borrowing money and not paying it back, voted to try to stiff Europe.
Nor am I surprised that the majority of comments here support them, for NY Times readers always seem to favor the deadbeats over the responsible borrowers.
Nor am I surprised that the majority of comments here support them, for NY Times readers always seem to favor the deadbeats over the responsible borrowers.
72
No kidding. It was only a few weeks ago when that guy came out declaring that he will not pay his student loans. He was cheered here.
Concerned Reader, please consider that responsible—possibly even moral—wealthy people, bankers especially, do not take advantage of borrowers in difficult situations so as to make even more money. I, and I believe many other NYT readers, happen to not favor the deadbeat bankers who are too often leeches sucking money from societies.
The United States did not float the Marshall Plan to Germany because of a deep and abiding love for that country and its people, we did it because the decision-makers knew that it would be integral to that region's long-term stability. If Germany wants fully assume its desired role as economic hegemon it must act similarly on Greece. The bailout isn't an act of kindness, there's a bailout because you can't afford that kind of instability on the fringe of your continent.
Germany weaseled its way out of fully repaying WWII reparations to Greece by signing the two-plus-four agreement in 1990. Then the world let Germany have almost 100 years to pay back its WWI debts. For the last century, that country has been the root of more human death and financial destruction than any other. Throwing Greece out of the EU because of its track record for the last five years hardly seems defensible. But I suppose that Greece isn't a strong market for German exports so from that perspective...........
Germany weaseled its way out of fully repaying WWII reparations to Greece by signing the two-plus-four agreement in 1990. Then the world let Germany have almost 100 years to pay back its WWI debts. For the last century, that country has been the root of more human death and financial destruction than any other. Throwing Greece out of the EU because of its track record for the last five years hardly seems defensible. But I suppose that Greece isn't a strong market for German exports so from that perspective...........
46
I can think of another country that has been the root of more human death and destruction than Germany. Much more.
Both Russia and China have killed more in the past century than Germany.
But throwing Greece out of the EU because of the fact that they lied to get into the EU in first place is very defensible.
Fool me once...
Fool me once...
The Allies, including Greece, forgave Germany much of its WW II debt in 1953, and restructured the rest. That debt has now come due for Germany. It is a long-term debt that Germany owes the rest of Europe. If it defaults on its moral debt, the Euro is weakened, perhaps fatally, the EU totters, markets crash, and Germany will once again held be held to account and in very ill repute.
38
True, but Germany has faithfully paid back the restructured loan. Greece voted against doing just that.
2
Oh........ so now it's Germany's fault for being the juggernaut of Europe economiclly. All Germany is doing is seeking justice. Most of the times addicts need a good dose of detox.......as do the Greeks ...who are like addicts ...in denial.
This is incorrect. Germany paid reparations to Greece, then did so again.
3
Long before there was a Europe or a Germany or an EU there was a Greece. They will prevail. They have done so for 5,000 years.
I have know idea how they will prevail and have absolutely no advice to give them on the matter but, long after most of us are gone, there will be a Greece.
I have know idea how they will prevail and have absolutely no advice to give them on the matter but, long after most of us are gone, there will be a Greece.
19
Yet the greece of 5000 years ago was not dependent on loans from other nations in order to afford their bloated civil service rolls and welfare state.
Greece has had five bankruptcies in less than 200 years.
There will be a Greece, but it will be a Second World country, just as it was before they lied to get into the EU.
There will be a Greece, but it will be a Second World country, just as it was before they lied to get into the EU.
so they've run out of other peoples' money?
be careful what you wish, er vote, for...
be careful what you wish, er vote, for...
59
Are the Greek people willing to downsize their government and do without some outrageous entitlements in order to have a balanced budget? You can't have it both ways.
28
So good. No more austerity. No more rescue loans. We got it. Do you get it, voters of Greece?
41
The voters of Greece get it, dont worry. The question is do you get the whole picture?
It is very unfortunate that this happened.
But countries, like people, must be in some way accountable for the debts they incur. It was Greece itself that assumed these obligations, and that agreed to their terms. Greece cannot afford the luxury of what they have done, snubbing their collective noses at their creditors. It may feel good at first, but the outcome of the election has the potential to do enormous harm, a bit to the world economy as a whole, but mostly to Greece.
Perhaps the rest of the Eurozone's financial institutions, as well as the IMF, will blink and grant Greece more leeway, as Tsipras has wishfully predicted. But more likely Greece will be forced out of the Euro, and, indeed out of the mainstream economy of the world. They will have to reinstate the drachma, and it will quickly become a currency with relatively little value in world markets. No one will lend the country and its institutions money. Failed banks and empty ATM's will be the norm in Greece, and it will be difficult or impossible for Greeks to buy pharmaceuticals and many other world products.
These are dismal predictions, and I hope they will not come to pass, and if they do that they will not last long. Perhaps the Greek economy can recover. But it was not too long ago that Greeks lived under a military Junta. I hope these times do not return to the country that is the birthplace of democracy.
But countries, like people, must be in some way accountable for the debts they incur. It was Greece itself that assumed these obligations, and that agreed to their terms. Greece cannot afford the luxury of what they have done, snubbing their collective noses at their creditors. It may feel good at first, but the outcome of the election has the potential to do enormous harm, a bit to the world economy as a whole, but mostly to Greece.
Perhaps the rest of the Eurozone's financial institutions, as well as the IMF, will blink and grant Greece more leeway, as Tsipras has wishfully predicted. But more likely Greece will be forced out of the Euro, and, indeed out of the mainstream economy of the world. They will have to reinstate the drachma, and it will quickly become a currency with relatively little value in world markets. No one will lend the country and its institutions money. Failed banks and empty ATM's will be the norm in Greece, and it will be difficult or impossible for Greeks to buy pharmaceuticals and many other world products.
These are dismal predictions, and I hope they will not come to pass, and if they do that they will not last long. Perhaps the Greek economy can recover. But it was not too long ago that Greeks lived under a military Junta. I hope these times do not return to the country that is the birthplace of democracy.
61
No, tourists will buy the drachma, it will not be a worthless currency.
I just don't see how the rest of Europe can allow to let Greece slip out of the EU and perhaps come under a Russian sphere of influence or become a rogue state. Fighting future wars over this would be a heck of a lot more expensive. And by the way, there is no way anyone can convince me that the international bankers of Europe did not know about all the tax shenanigans and stuff that was/is going on in Greece. Yet, they still lent them money - they gambled - and now they want the working stiffs of Europe to pitch in and pay for their high stakes 'poker' losses. Makes my head spin!
2
The Yes vote would have continued austerity and massive unemployment for a generation for the benefits of bankers and markets.
The No vote doesn't solve the problem, it simply means that bankers and markets *may* have to share a little of the pain the bankers caused by their poor lending practices.
When you offer people, including all the Greek people who did NOT cause the problem, a future without any hope, they lose hope.
The bail-out was never designed to help Greece, it was designed to help banks and markets.
So it failed.
The No vote doesn't solve the problem, it simply means that bankers and markets *may* have to share a little of the pain the bankers caused by their poor lending practices.
When you offer people, including all the Greek people who did NOT cause the problem, a future without any hope, they lose hope.
The bail-out was never designed to help Greece, it was designed to help banks and markets.
So it failed.
359
The banks dont hold the greek debt anymore, the institutions do. SO no they wont share the pain
Well, the unemployment rate will rise to about 75%. What is that sign the is at the entrance to Greek hell, I thing it reads all ye who enter have not hope.
Hmmm? Most of Greece's government debt is in the form of bonds successive Greek governments have authorized and issued. Very little of the central government debt is in the form of loans solicited by bankers.
Greek governments -- past and present -- knew the debt was unsustainable. Indeed they cooked their own government accounts to hid the magnitude of the debt mountain. So, according to your rather faulty logic, they are not culpable. In most legal systems, their behavior would be deemed a willful fraud.
Yes, they could have been honest with the Greek populace. But like Hillary Clinton Greece's political class seems to be afflicted with an inability to tell the whole truth.
Greek governments -- past and present -- knew the debt was unsustainable. Indeed they cooked their own government accounts to hid the magnitude of the debt mountain. So, according to your rather faulty logic, they are not culpable. In most legal systems, their behavior would be deemed a willful fraud.
Yes, they could have been honest with the Greek populace. But like Hillary Clinton Greece's political class seems to be afflicted with an inability to tell the whole truth.
The real tragedy here is that before syrizia came to power six months ago, Greece was beginning to turn the corner. Growth was expected to be a respectable 2%, and indeed new car sales were up 10%. Look at the destruction after six months of these amateur socialists. Greece is about to be dragged out of the euro and into depression.
I don't see creditor countries in the rest of Europe sending more taxpayer money. This is quite serious now. Greece in the euro is going to seem like heaven compared to Greece under the drachma. The Greek people will get exactly what they deserve. The rest of Europe will be just fine in fact I predict the euro will strengthen.
I don't see creditor countries in the rest of Europe sending more taxpayer money. This is quite serious now. Greece in the euro is going to seem like heaven compared to Greece under the drachma. The Greek people will get exactly what they deserve. The rest of Europe will be just fine in fact I predict the euro will strengthen.
127
Knowing how slow governments work, I don't buy the argument that Syrizia's policies had little, if any, impact on the current situation in Greece. It took Obama a few years to undo the mess Bush left behind. The situation in Greece is similar.
The real impact came from the Eurozone and IMF's reaction to the new socialist government which caused the momentum in the economicy to come to a stop, not the new socialist government itself.
The real impact came from the Eurozone and IMF's reaction to the new socialist government which caused the momentum in the economicy to come to a stop, not the new socialist government itself.
Greece is in depression 5 years now
It's hard to judge how much Syriza or the Troika are to blame for how things have gone during these past 5 months. The Troika has evidently played a rough game to oust the Greek government, using every means at hand.
The Greeks have not done anything evil or unnatural these days, they simply voted to deny being forced to take super-recessionary measures, and that if they receive any economic support they are allowed to spend it on growth rather than in paying creditors.
Instead of playing a blame game, we should think about the best solutions. By all objective measures Greece needs a debt relief if they are to survive this crisis. Happily the IMF has accepted this a few days ago. Unless EU insists on kicking Greece out of the Euro for political reasons, this (and a good government) can allow Greece to someday become a productive member of the community.
The Greeks have not done anything evil or unnatural these days, they simply voted to deny being forced to take super-recessionary measures, and that if they receive any economic support they are allowed to spend it on growth rather than in paying creditors.
Instead of playing a blame game, we should think about the best solutions. By all objective measures Greece needs a debt relief if they are to survive this crisis. Happily the IMF has accepted this a few days ago. Unless EU insists on kicking Greece out of the Euro for political reasons, this (and a good government) can allow Greece to someday become a productive member of the community.
Athens airport may as well put up a sign reading "You are now entering the Soviet Sector." Europe isn't going to give Greece another chance. But Russia will.
24
That's worked out so well in the past.
The Soviet Union is SO last Tuesday. Or make that, last century.
If Europe cannot afford Greece, Russia cannot either.
Well, lets let the experiment run its course.
Lets let Tsipras, Syriza and the Greeks run their affairs with no further interference from the Troika and the EU.
Lets let them run their banks the way they want it. Lets let them increase pensions, dole out more no-show government jobs. Whatever they think is best.
The OXI vote let the EU off the hook. Lets home Germany, France et al have the courage to say of the hook, and simply be hands off Greece from now on. Greece has taken too much of everyone's time. It is their country, lets let them run it, as they apparently chose to.
Lets let Tsipras, Syriza and the Greeks run their affairs with no further interference from the Troika and the EU.
Lets let them run their banks the way they want it. Lets let them increase pensions, dole out more no-show government jobs. Whatever they think is best.
The OXI vote let the EU off the hook. Lets home Germany, France et al have the courage to say of the hook, and simply be hands off Greece from now on. Greece has taken too much of everyone's time. It is their country, lets let them run it, as they apparently chose to.
35
I am personally convinced that the Greeks are better out of the Euro. They have never fit the pattern required of fiscal restraint. They only collect about 50% of their taxes so higher taxes might not help much. The population is in revolt over austerity. They need to go back to the drachma and deal with the pain of being a poor country again. If they can keep order, tourism will help. I have plans to go there in September but am watching to see what happens. If the anarchists behave as they did in November 2012, they will sink the country completely. I hope not.
38
The chief tax evaders are the 1%. Why do you hate rich people?
When you visit Greece, just refuse to pay any hotel, restaurant or tourism bills that you may incur. I'm sure they will be very understanding and admire your bravery for stiffing them.
1
I never understood how the Europeans thought that they could have monetary union without political union (Yes, only one sovereign) and expect it to work. It didn't - and it's not. Austerity is not the way out for Greece. I agree with them. However, the Germans don't want to pay for the governmental spending that needs to take place. I agree with them, too. Monetary union without political union cannot work. Unfortunately, we are not ready for political union. Greece needs to go back to the drachma, so that they can control their own monetary policy.
27
Upside: There may be some good deals ahead for those seeking to travel to Greece for vacation, provided the country doesn't sink into anarchy.
The Greeks are demonstrating the political unity which the European Union lacks.
12
As Ukraine collapses into civil war, as ISIS threatens Europe from Tunisia and Russia threatens Europe from the north, as immigrants pour over the southern border, the only thing that concerns Europe's bankers are their bank deposits and the need to punish the Greeks to protect the bankers. The European Union stands for nothing but the interests of the bankers, just as the U.S. stands for nothing but the interests of Wall Street.
2
The banks already got almost completely out in 2010. It is the people of the EU to whom the money is now owed. How is that democracy when 11 million decide for 300 million?
1
Without a solvent government of their own with sources of income other than that which comes from lenders, to spit in the face of those offering to reorganize and regroup is as foolish a concept as I can imagine. Pride and prejudice is a dangerous combination. Greeks should have had a reality check long before now. Don't come to the US with your hands out, crying in your soup. You've made your own bed, now lay in it.
114
Those offering reorganization and regrouping are basically loan sharks. It's a pretty bad deal. If you're going to be saddled with a bad situation, better one of your own making than one that makes you a slave to another.
1
Oh, I am sure the Russians or the Chinese will be glad to help out, and we will have to sit here and wipe the egg off our faces!
Remember the sin in the Garden was pride. Truly it will be deadly for the Greek people.
1
What was it that Bob Dylan said?
" If you ain't got nothin' you got nothin to lose".
The people got hosed by the government they put in place. By the same token the politicians sold them a major bill of goods that they could never deliver on.
Oh, wait a minute.... that sounds a bit familiar.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain- move along please. Move along.
" If you ain't got nothin' you got nothin to lose".
The people got hosed by the government they put in place. By the same token the politicians sold them a major bill of goods that they could never deliver on.
Oh, wait a minute.... that sounds a bit familiar.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain- move along please. Move along.
14
They have a lot to lose and the pain is only beginning. When there is no medicine, no food and no fuel the people might find out what real austerity is.
Congratulations to Tsipiras who got what he wanted! I think Greece is likely to drop the euro and restore the drachma. It will certainly reduce their debt burden and give them the chance to steer their own economic destiny (but painful days lie ahead). Can Tspiras convince folks to support the economy for the greater good (i.e., will future tax evasion decrease by ordinary citizens and wealthy Greeks who have purchased real estate abroad)? We shall see.
36
Their economic destiny, right, which is to become a middle eastern country without oil or something like that. For the Southern European countries the hope was that entering the euro would have forced them to enact the reforms that would have made them competitive, hence able to survive the modern financial landscape: reform of labor laws, reform of justice, reform of education, reform of public administration. It could not be helped, they would not do it.Then austerity came when the cat was out of the barn, a useless patch. The truth is, those countries don't have in themselves, they will necessarily drift down. It took this referendum to find out.
1
I think this will mean the end of Euro for Greece, but i don' think it's what the people voting No had in mind. They have fundamentally miscalculated their bargaining position and will soon see the harsh reality that awaits them. In the long run the move back to the drachma is probably a good thing but it's going to be very painful.
Ooops! Yes, Tspiras and his cronies can certainly repudiate the debt. Good luck to the Greeks. They will have little chance of raising a cent overseas. And, then there is their existing debt which is denominated in Euros. They can attempt to force a debt swap, compelling EU governments to accept drachma bonds. But I doubt the EU, IMF, ECB and the other agencies holding the majority of its debt will be in any rush to trade in one set of worthless obligations for another. And, then, Greece's banks -- the other large holder of Greek government debt -- will hold worthless assets on their books. For the banks it is a short trip over the edge to insolvency.
In the Odyssey, Homer speaks of sailing between the perils of Scylla and Charybdis. Well the electorate has given Tspiras the helm. I doubt he will be able to navigate a safe passage for his countrymen.
In the Odyssey, Homer speaks of sailing between the perils of Scylla and Charybdis. Well the electorate has given Tspiras the helm. I doubt he will be able to navigate a safe passage for his countrymen.
Congratulations to the Greeks as they bravely stand up for democracy.
17
Some say that democracy is a suicide pact, the Greeks are about to test that idea.
1
So, I can skip out on paying my bills and call it democracy? Cool!
3
So the choice was being slaves to the banks or working harder to stand alone on their own feet. I would pick the latter. In the meantime, the world now enters into the uncharted territory of relationships because short-sighted bankers, once again, dictate the day.
31
The choice was between borrowing or living within their means.
The Greeks have chosen.
The Greeks have chosen.
If given an opportunity to vote whether I should pay my bills or not, of course I would vote no. Wouldn't you?
38
Responsible people pay their bills.
1
that isn't what they voted on
Maybe you missed the part that said the vote was not about whether to pay their bills, it was about whether to accept another draconian loan, sans wiggle room, or accept it, and thereby reject Tsipras and his government.
Merkel et al, will either make Tsipras a sweeter offer, or possibly put the EU and maybe even the Western world in grave peril. If so, then it's also in the best interest of the USA to help Merkal, et al, loosen her grip from Greece's neck, allowing it to breath.
Merkel et al, will either make Tsipras a sweeter offer, or possibly put the EU and maybe even the Western world in grave peril. If so, then it's also in the best interest of the USA to help Merkal, et al, loosen her grip from Greece's neck, allowing it to breath.
1
I can acknowledge I lack a full understanding of the hardships the Greeks are facing. Yet it seems to me the majority has said, "Hey Europe. Don't tell us how to spend your money."
43
This should make for an interesting summer. Greek democracy "1", European bankers and financial system "0". Time for bankers and investors to finally have a haircut? Maybe. You borrow money from a loan shark and don't pay, it's your kneecaps that pay the price. Europe's bankers may be aiming for the Greek's knees but it will likely themselves that will feel the most pain and somewhat higher than their knees. This is why wise old Ben Franklin advised,"Never a borrower nor a lender be." In the end this will be worked out and the Greeks accommodated.
6
Greece is will punished viciously for its audacity by the bankers, even as Russia threatens from the north, Ukraine collapses to the east, ISIS attack from Tunisia and from within France, and even as immigrants pour over the southern border. Nothing matters to the bankers who run Europe...except protecting the bankers. Christine Lagarde is Dominique Strauss-Kahn in a skirt. Otherwise there is no difference between the two.
1
Private investor did have a haircut in 2012 worth about 107 bn€.
Now the vast majority of remaining debt is held by the institutions aka. other countries taxpayers.
Now the vast majority of remaining debt is held by the institutions aka. other countries taxpayers.
1
That was Shakespeare- Polonius's advice to Laertes in "Hamlet."
If the UK can be in the EU but not in the euro, so can the Greeks. Be the masters of your fate. But put those tax dodgers in jail!
20
Yes, let's raise taxes and build more prisons.
The UK is planning on a referendum to decide whether to stay in the EU. It will be interesting to see how Greece gets on, and speculate whether the result of the UK referendum was affected by the Greek saga.
Putting the tax dodgers in jail wouldn't help, unless they also pay the taxes they owe. They probably already have the money hidden away in Swiss bank accounts. Just a thought - I wonder what percentage of potential US taxes is actually collected? Probably more than 50%, but does anyone really know?
Putting the tax dodgers in jail wouldn't help, unless they also pay the taxes they owe. They probably already have the money hidden away in Swiss bank accounts. Just a thought - I wonder what percentage of potential US taxes is actually collected? Probably more than 50%, but does anyone really know?
I just hope Mr. Putin doesn't step in to save Greece with economic survival, Russian style.
8
I don't think even Russia can afford to "save" Greece. Greece is an incredibly large money pit given its size.
The Greek's have called the ROEEG's (Rest of Europe's Especially Germany's) bluff. Now the ball is in the ROEEG's court. Will they call the Greek's bluff or bail out their bankers? The bankers will be bailed out, I think. Because that's what government's do - bail out the wealthy.
8
The 'bankers' have already been paid off from the previous bailouts - a Greek default would be straight out of the pocket of other Eurozone taxpayers.
1
There are no bankers to be bailed out, vast majority of debt is in public hands. Also there was a haircut for private investors in 2012 ofc that was only 107 billion €, so its no wonder a 2nd haircut is needed.
Winners:
The "no" vote is a victory for democracy over rule-by-unelected-banks and stateless corporations; a victory for Keynesian economics over insane Hooverite austerity; and an affirmation of the wisdom of the United Kingdom in keeping the pound sterling as its currency and rejecting the Euro.
Losers:
It's a defeat for Angela Merkel, whose own country defaulted on a billion debt to Greece incurred by theft from Greek vaults during W.W. II.
Yes, hard times face Greece for awhile; but it will recover much faster now -- either with the new drachma or because this vote brings the troika to its senses and they finally dump the austerity program for European nations in deep depression.
The "no" vote is a victory for democracy over rule-by-unelected-banks and stateless corporations; a victory for Keynesian economics over insane Hooverite austerity; and an affirmation of the wisdom of the United Kingdom in keeping the pound sterling as its currency and rejecting the Euro.
Losers:
It's a defeat for Angela Merkel, whose own country defaulted on a billion debt to Greece incurred by theft from Greek vaults during W.W. II.
Yes, hard times face Greece for awhile; but it will recover much faster now -- either with the new drachma or because this vote brings the troika to its senses and they finally dump the austerity program for European nations in deep depression.
244
You and alot of greek i talked to seem to forget something. I very much liked the ida of a referendum, although this couldve been done in a much better way.
But at the other side of the negotiating table aren unelected bureacrats, but the finance minsters and heads of state/government of 18 other DEMOCARCIES. Each and everyone of those elected by a majority of their own voters.
Greece is a sovereign nation with all the right in the world to say NO. So are the others.
So when Varoufakis say there will be a deal on Monday he is plainly lying, because at least 5 parliaments now have to be asked if negotiation should even begin.
But at the other side of the negotiating table aren unelected bureacrats, but the finance minsters and heads of state/government of 18 other DEMOCARCIES. Each and everyone of those elected by a majority of their own voters.
Greece is a sovereign nation with all the right in the world to say NO. So are the others.
So when Varoufakis say there will be a deal on Monday he is plainly lying, because at least 5 parliaments now have to be asked if negotiation should even begin.
Germany paid reparations to Greece, not once but twice. And it is simply false that the money is owed to stateless banks. They got out years ago. The money is now owed to the people of the EU who own the vast majority of the debt. This was done to protect against contagion in the private market.
3
The Greek people did the right thing. You can't continue bleeding the patient. Presidential candidate Bernie Sanders made the following comments earlier this week:
“It is unacceptable that the IMF and European policymakers have refused to work with the Greek government on a sensible plan to improve its economy and pay back its debt. At a time of grotesque wealth inequality, the pensions of the people in Greece should not be cut even further to pay back some of the largest banks and wealthiest financiers in the world.
“If Greece’s economy is going to succeed, these austerity policies must end. Instead of trying to force the Greek government and its people into even more economic pain and suffering, international leaders throughout the world, including the U.S., should enable Greece to enact pro-growth policies that improve the lives of all of its people, not just the wealthy few."
“It is unacceptable that the IMF and European policymakers have refused to work with the Greek government on a sensible plan to improve its economy and pay back its debt. At a time of grotesque wealth inequality, the pensions of the people in Greece should not be cut even further to pay back some of the largest banks and wealthiest financiers in the world.
“If Greece’s economy is going to succeed, these austerity policies must end. Instead of trying to force the Greek government and its people into even more economic pain and suffering, international leaders throughout the world, including the U.S., should enable Greece to enact pro-growth policies that improve the lives of all of its people, not just the wealthy few."
126
Well this just goes to show's Bernie's ineptitude extends beyond domestic policy.
1
Concerned Reader,
The Greek economy has shrunk 25 percent since the start of the Eurozone crisis. Greece can't pay its creditors if its economy keeps shrinking. Austerity doesn't work. Growth policies are needed. Think, please.
The Greek economy has shrunk 25 percent since the start of the Eurozone crisis. Greece can't pay its creditors if its economy keeps shrinking. Austerity doesn't work. Growth policies are needed. Think, please.
3
At least Bernie Sanders realizes it is not the banks that are in danger here but "international lenders" which translates as the governments and peoples of the countries that are owed the money.
Greeks want something for nothing; they will keep going down financially until they want to become self reliant individually.
78
It's hard to become self-reliant when banksters and their accomplices in politics are flooding your country with easy money. When said money is being dilapidated by the politicians on gifts to their electoral base and doesn't create any growth, the taxpayer foots the bill. "Trickle up" economy.
The pensioners and the middle class did not make the deals with the banker.
A discredited government did. Let the banker go find those discredited pols and ask them for their money. Good luck to them getting it.
A discredited government did. Let the banker go find those discredited pols and ask them for their money. Good luck to them getting it.
Good for your Greece. Now its time to take on the Fascist rich Americans.
7
The Greeks are living in a fantasy world. The money they are withdrawing from the banks as their "pensions"? That's money from other citizens of Europe, most of whom have smaller pensions and later retirement ages. Now the Greeks decide that it is *they*, who have borrowed the money but don't wish to pay it back, who are the victims. And so many are willing to go along with it, because rather than educate yourselves about what has happened, you raise a fist of anarchy.
As always, "someone should pay, as long as its no me".
As always, "someone should pay, as long as its no me".
217
It is the usurious INTEREST tacked onto the debt that is the problem, Bob Roberts. The "lenders" aka mafia want to "foreclose" and own Greece, not get the money back. That is why the Good People of Greece voted NO. That is why the rest of us must wrest control from the corporate and "investment" godfathers.
2
Greedy banks made "high risk/high reward" loans out of pure unadulterated greed to people who couldn't pay them back. So the German government used taxpayer money to bail out the banks. The people to be mad at are not the Greeks, who the German government squeezed to pay them back, but the banks and the government that bailed them out.
3
Those who lost money in 2007 live in a fantasy world if they think they lost money to the Greeks.
The Greek pensions where earned through hard work and were stolen by the bankers, the same bankers who stole the pension money in the US. Bank robbery is now an inside job with computer aided fanciful derivative math. As always catching those thieves is a political as much as a police problem.
The Greek pensions where earned through hard work and were stolen by the bankers, the same bankers who stole the pension money in the US. Bank robbery is now an inside job with computer aided fanciful derivative math. As always catching those thieves is a political as much as a police problem.
Yes, Germany...so serious about the austerity and hardship they wish to impose so that they themselves bear little financial losses, even though they can afford to.
I wonder where the Fatherland would be today, had the United States not BAILED THEM OUT BY REBUILDING THEIR NATION after all the pain in lives lost and treasure wasted from World War II? And that was caused by being serious about what...oh yeah, world domination.
I wonder where the Fatherland would be today, had the United States not BAILED THEM OUT BY REBUILDING THEIR NATION after all the pain in lives lost and treasure wasted from World War II? And that was caused by being serious about what...oh yeah, world domination.
159
Don't overestimate yourselves. The Marshall plan was a relatively small amount and more cash flowed the other direction as war reparations.
2
The US is STILL supporting Europe. Of course they have money for high speed rail, no tuition higher ed, maternity leave, socialized medicine etc.. They spend next to nothing on the defense because the US spends so much. Let's cut our defense budget and let Europe pay its own way for change. Europeans love socialism because they're always on the receiving end courtesy of US taxpayers.
3
"United States . . . bailed them out by rebuilding their nation"? Read Theodore White on what that rebuilding required of the Germans: General Lucius Clay "thought the Germans should be forced to work, and work hard, to pay for the food, fiber, and raw material that American humanitarians believed we must ship in. , , , a forty-eight-hour week, and work they did."
2
It has been often said one problem with a capitalism economy as when funds dry up, whatever the reason, a downward cycle of the economy begins. The decline in funds flow inevitably leads to greater unemployment, lower wages, close of businesses, etc., etc. We saw this in the 1930s in the U.S. Austerity on the part of the central financiers has exacerbated the problem to the extent the Greeks moved to the radical left. Europe appears to have the option of making changes or it may begin a swing of similar nations to the ast toward Russia and China.
3
And we all know what a study in success Russia has been.
The Greeks have spoken. It is a resounding NO! Now what?
2
Economic suicide.
1
If Greece obtains better terms from this rebuff to austerity, then the leftist parties will surge in Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Cyprus, etc to revolt against austerity. The EU might be forced to let Greece die, in an attempt to survive---maybe this is for the best for everyone, Greece included.
12
Then if Greece does well, what will the other countries do?
I am not sympathetic to the tax cheats of Greece. Why should Europe bail out people who don't pay there taxes and a government that can't collect them? You never hear about the tax issue there.
37
It's the tax cheats who wanted to vote yes. It's all about enriching an elite, and keeping people in power. Even the Syriza team probably has people who are in it for their own selfish goals. The real selfless people are those who work to help others without desiring recognition, fame, or money.
Ah, yes. The old Pyrrhic Victory....But believe it or not, you won't find it so hot
If you ain't got the do re mi.
If you ain't got the do re mi.
6
"Believe it or not, you won't find it so hot If you ain't got the do re mi"
The Woody Guthrie song from which that line comes is about the plight of people from the mid-west heading to California to escape the dust bowl in the 1930's ("California is the garden of Eden, a paradise to look at and see, but believe it or not...") and being turned away. If Greece quits the euro but stays in the EU, the more enterprising will still be able to go work in other EU countries (and get paid in euros, which will probably be worth quite a few drachma).
The Woody Guthrie song from which that line comes is about the plight of people from the mid-west heading to California to escape the dust bowl in the 1930's ("California is the garden of Eden, a paradise to look at and see, but believe it or not...") and being turned away. If Greece quits the euro but stays in the EU, the more enterprising will still be able to go work in other EU countries (and get paid in euros, which will probably be worth quite a few drachma).
A beautiful day. Greece is the cradle of western civilization and democracy, and today they have resoundingly rejected the nightmare that has descended over the planet-- neo-liberal orthodoxy. An orthodoxy whose spell we have been under for three decades and by whose logic trillions can be found to bailout investment banks that are run like back street casinos but that compel countries to cut social services for the elderly, the poor and workers. And then after your economy is in a depression with 25-30% unemployed they demand that you cut some more. Thank you Syriza and the Greek People for helping us to imagine that empathy is what defines our humanity- not a cooked balance sheet.
454
They borrowed the money. They will have to pay back. Those are the rules of the financial world. If you have a credit card, you know the rules. If you can't pay, the credit is taken away from you. And...if you have children, you teach them these rules. Greece is like a teenager who cannot live within his/her allowance and so pouts and threatens to get more. No one forced Greece to borrow money. No one forced Greece to have a bloated civil service payroll. No one forced Greece to allow scofflaws not to pay their taxes (it is a game that Greeks --of all levels -- play and play well). This is a financial tsunami of their own making. As my sainted mother used to say...you made your bed, now go sleep in it.
110
It's nice how you blame the banks for something that was caused by years of profligate spending by the Greek government.
11
Sorry. But you comment is quite ill informed. It was not liberal orthodox economics which put Greece in its current bind; it was unbridled Keynesian economics with a socialist slant.
So hardly a beautiful day, unless you are blinded by the same hubris afflicting the Greeks. Yes, Greece was once the cradle of western civilization. But that was more than two thousand years ago. In the intervening two millennia they have not made any stellar contribution equal to the largess they demand of their fellow EU citizens today. And, to your point about Greece and its social security system, well, their current plight is,one, of their own making, and, two, a ringing denunciation of its misguided post-war socialism.
No one forced the Greek government to borrow the debt. They incurred the debt because to a man, most Greek politicians were too craven to educate their electorate that the social security system was unsustainable. Like the best of con men, they played a confidence game with the rest of Europe and their fellow citizens. Guess what? The rest of Europe is no longer confident of the Greeks' ability to face the truth. Only their compatriots still buy the nonsense Tsipras is peddling.
So hardly a beautiful day, unless you are blinded by the same hubris afflicting the Greeks. Yes, Greece was once the cradle of western civilization. But that was more than two thousand years ago. In the intervening two millennia they have not made any stellar contribution equal to the largess they demand of their fellow EU citizens today. And, to your point about Greece and its social security system, well, their current plight is,one, of their own making, and, two, a ringing denunciation of its misguided post-war socialism.
No one forced the Greek government to borrow the debt. They incurred the debt because to a man, most Greek politicians were too craven to educate their electorate that the social security system was unsustainable. Like the best of con men, they played a confidence game with the rest of Europe and their fellow citizens. Guess what? The rest of Europe is no longer confident of the Greeks' ability to face the truth. Only their compatriots still buy the nonsense Tsipras is peddling.
10
It is way past time to stop letting the banksters run amok. Iceland has shown what is possible. Now perhaps Greece will.
Unfortunately our own rich country is in thrall to these crooks. They were President Obama's best friends. They already own Hillary -- bought and paid for.
Unfortunately our own rich country is in thrall to these crooks. They were President Obama's best friends. They already own Hillary -- bought and paid for.
247
You certainly don't know what your talking about. Obama didn't get us into the recession that we have just gone through. Republicans deregulated the financial industry which as you should remember started the whole down fall.
As a 12 year expatriate, I voted
with my feet to reject the violent gun culture in America and the cynicism that allows all 3 branches of government to be controlled by the banksters.
with my feet to reject the violent gun culture in America and the cynicism that allows all 3 branches of government to be controlled by the banksters.
1
Hate to inform you: Iceland was bailed out by the same "banksters" --the IMF. Difference is: Icelanders know what it means to do something called "work." They don't retire at 50, either. Or cheat on their taxes to the tune of $30 billion. Like the Greeks.
The Greek people have made themselves clear in the strongest possible manner. Their message to Germany: "As a proud people, we will not accept your conditions. Now, open the money tap wide - immediately."
16
Yep Greece is just like every other deadbeat.
2
Greece simply could never pay back all that it owed. A yes vote had no end-game - it would have simply punted the problem down the road with more bailouts, more austerity, a shrinking GDP - then rinse and repeat. With a no vote, things will likely worsen in the short run as Greece is eventually booted off the Euro and returns to the drachma. Greeks better buckle up for a tough couple of more years. But beyond the rough transition period, there will be daylight at the end of the tunnel. No was the only realistic and reasonable vote, and those who expected a yes vote were fooling themselves.
151
"Greece simply CAN never pay back all that it owed." Present tense. The IMF has admitted that their proposals for Greece can never been met.
What the IMF would like to do is agree to an accord with Greece and then announced "Mission Accomplished" so that markets and bankers will feel safe.
But nothing will actually change.
What the IMF would like to do is agree to an accord with Greece and then announced "Mission Accomplished" so that markets and bankers will feel safe.
But nothing will actually change.
1
Loan sharks beware: irresponsible lending may result in losing your investment.
46
Not when your accomplice in politics promise to repay any unproductive loans with taxpayer's money! ;)
Once again Greece has shown that democracy works. Now let's hope the "troika" of the European Central Bank, European Commission and International Monetary Fund will finally back away from harsh austerity to some debt forgiveness and economic revitalization. It's time--once and for ALL--to stop the recriminations and blame, and decide whether the principle of unity embodied in the Euro and the EU will hold. The economics are much simpler than the politics. The IMF has just acknowledged that the Greek debt is "unsustainable." It's time now for reality to replace ideology and for stimulus to replace austerity. Greece has spoken for all those who who are still suffering from the failed policy of austerity; I hope the German-led EU, and the world are listening and join them in saying "Oxi" to continued austerity.
140
Yes, as the deadbeat debtors, the Greeks have spoken. "We don't want to pay back the money European countries loaned to us. We've already spent it."
I believe that democracy requires that we hear from the taxpayers on the other side of the transaction - those Germans, French, Dutch, Spaniards, etc who will never get their money back.
I believe that democracy requires that we hear from the taxpayers on the other side of the transaction - those Germans, French, Dutch, Spaniards, etc who will never get their money back.
5
I guess you have no problem with moral hazard? Let the lender beware if I lie to secure a loan.
It is very important to understand that the structural adjustment program imposed upon Greece is identical to that which has been imposed on many countries of the global Southover the past several decades.The Greek people havedemocratically said they are not going to roll over and play dead in the name of fiscal austerity. This is what real democracy democratically said they are not going to roll over and play dead in the name of fiscal austerity. This is what real democracy actually looks like.let us now go after the real villains in this drama, namely the too big to fail banks.these banks are the outgrowth of the so-called free-market form of capitalism. Let us not for a moment forget that these very banks were bailed out by their governments, which is otherwise known as socialism for the banks and austerity for the 99%.
2
Can you believe it, borrowers are expected to pay back the money? No way, just say no!
38
It's just paper. One person's income is another person's spending. What did Greece do with the money it borrowed? (Yes, it went to pensions, etc. whatever but what did the people who received the money allegedly do with it? Save it? Spend it?)
Bill Arizona 19 minutes ago
"Can you believe it, borrowers are expected to pay back the money? No way, just say no!"
For every complex problem, there is a simple solution...that won't work. However, you should donate to Donald the Trump.
He'll fix everything.
Darn Greek rapists and murderers!
"Can you believe it, borrowers are expected to pay back the money? No way, just say no!"
For every complex problem, there is a simple solution...that won't work. However, you should donate to Donald the Trump.
He'll fix everything.
Darn Greek rapists and murderers!
Expected to and able to are two different things. Sometimes loans go bad.
If I was Greek, I would have voted No too.
242
I lost my pension in 2007 and I would vote NO if I could. I am thankful to the Greeks for doing so on my behalf.
As more US States face budget problems, the voters in those States may be confronted with similar referendums. That voter response will send a clear message to creditors and Congress about the trillion dollar US deficit.
6
@Elizabeth re: US States with budget problems
Puerto Rico, a close American territory that has considered statehood in the past, is already in a similar debt crisis.
Puerto Rico, a close American territory that has considered statehood in the past, is already in a similar debt crisis.
4
No, Elizabeth. It's not even remotely similar.
And so now, as the psychiatrist said in "Portnoy's Complaint," we can begin.
3
"Greeks delivered a shocking rebuff "
Shocking only because the pollsters got it wrong, again. They have very little credibility left.
Shocking only because the pollsters got it wrong, again. They have very little credibility left.
49
The Greeks have decisively rejected being screwed into the ground by the EU. Good for them. They need to go back to the drachma, devalue their currency and start rebuilding their economy the old fashioned way.
464
Bless their hearts for sticking it to the EU, but the old fashioned way is "they earn it," which has never been in the Greek playbook. They are about living life to the fullest. I wish them well, and maybe there's a lesson here for the rest of us.
3
It takes money to rebuild, pay bills, pensions, etc.
Where does that come from? Who lends them the money and, more importantly, why should anyone?
You can be a deadbeat only once...
Where does that come from? Who lends them the money and, more importantly, why should anyone?
You can be a deadbeat only once...
3
Yes the lesson is "If you incur a debt pay it off as early as you can"
I am with the people of Greece, the heck with imperially imposed austerity. Greece is no colony of Germany or France but a free nation voting for economic recovery with proper European assistance. Prime Minister Tsipras has done well for Greece.
338
How is it imperially imposed when 1) Greece voluntarily joined the EU 2) Greece got into financial trouble because of their own actions 3) Greece gladly took on massive loans and 4) Greece also agreed to the terms?
Will we be saying Tsipras has done well for Greece when the people are eating out of garbage dumpsters?
Will we be saying Tsipras has done well for Greece when the people are eating out of garbage dumpsters?
A question that should be on
Your mind this evening is why?
Why are the people of Greece--
Why is the nation of Greece--getting
Spanked & punished by their EU
German & French economic overlords?
We should be saluting tonight’s
Referendum NO vote results,
The Greek electorate voting against another
Devastating round of economic sanctions,
Voting NO on more years of austere living.
In fact, it should be U.S. foreign policy to
Support complete Greek withdrawal from
The European Union. That’s right:
“Euro No, Drachma naí!”
The EU is fiscal tyranny,
Led by the EU autocrats,
Angela Merkel & whomever is sitting in the
French baby’s high chair these days.