It's said the sentiment/polls in Greece are 50-50 on the referendum. I think the Greek people are smart and will know what is best for Greece is not the present government, Tsipras has done nothing to improve the economy, he has brought the country to default and economic chaos. If the referendum is held on Sunday Greeks will decide which path to follow. The long delay by avoiding the payment of loans is over and the EU is forced to bring this to a head. A small country like Greece and some ego driven politicians think they can be in the world spotlight while ruining their countries.
These "debts" are not debts of gratitude for gifts and favors by benefactors to beneficiaries.
The other side to the story is "creditors" are investors seeking a profit, not benefactors deserving credit as good Samaritans.
Looks like they didn't do their homework--as greedy Ponzi scheme suckers rarely do.
But Greece was no more a Ponzi-artist than US home buyers opting for subpar mortgages--creating the "housing bubble". Those were offered because secondary investors were making a fortune selling mysterious derivatives--even profiting from subpar failures. They were the real Ponzi-artists.
So we now wonder who'll profit from Greek default. And we wonder about the need for regulations curbing Ponzi-artists and quasi-Ponzi-artists at all levels.
The monied--after all--didn't get it off a tree. It's the result of property and tax law--as well as the rest of the political order. That's the other side of the "liar-poker" story.
The other side to the story is "creditors" are investors seeking a profit, not benefactors deserving credit as good Samaritans.
Looks like they didn't do their homework--as greedy Ponzi scheme suckers rarely do.
But Greece was no more a Ponzi-artist than US home buyers opting for subpar mortgages--creating the "housing bubble". Those were offered because secondary investors were making a fortune selling mysterious derivatives--even profiting from subpar failures. They were the real Ponzi-artists.
So we now wonder who'll profit from Greek default. And we wonder about the need for regulations curbing Ponzi-artists and quasi-Ponzi-artists at all levels.
The monied--after all--didn't get it off a tree. It's the result of property and tax law--as well as the rest of the political order. That's the other side of the "liar-poker" story.
3
The oucome of the referendum is a foregone conclusion. It's hardly a horse race when "More Austerity" lies dead in the starting gate.
Greece will drop out of the Eurozone and try to go it alone, and Germany and its allies will only have themselves to blame.
Greece will drop out of the Eurozone and try to go it alone, and Germany and its allies will only have themselves to blame.
1
What a fascinating "Which side are you on?" moment. Money people see only money, debt, contract. Humanitarians see only human suffering. Economists see only a needlessly hobbled economy. Political junkies see populists jockeying against Very Serious People. Political analysts see Southern Europe interests asserting themselves against Central Europe domination and threatening to attach to other blocs, namely Russia or China. Conspiracy theorists see banking interests forcing anti-democratic regime change because Greece voted in a government that's further left than usual, who won't sit and take the same financial abuse that previous Greek governments have.
Let's face it, this is all Kabuki. The real story is that the central banks bailed out the banks, again, for $300B of knowingly bad bets on Greece, because they had to in order to prevent financial calamity, and since that was indefensible from a governance perspective, now they're trying to make Greece the fall guy. But as that story becomes more and more transparently self-serving they find themselves painted into a corner and unmasked, with no plausible fallback position.
Blame and punish the banksters, not the pensioners. Which side are you on?
Let's face it, this is all Kabuki. The real story is that the central banks bailed out the banks, again, for $300B of knowingly bad bets on Greece, because they had to in order to prevent financial calamity, and since that was indefensible from a governance perspective, now they're trying to make Greece the fall guy. But as that story becomes more and more transparently self-serving they find themselves painted into a corner and unmasked, with no plausible fallback position.
Blame and punish the banksters, not the pensioners. Which side are you on?
1
The referendum, so-called demonstration of democracy, was ill-timed, ill-conceived and with virtually no preparation for its consequences which are already dire and will worsen. That Mr. Tsipras would precipitously bring on such a referendum bodes poorly for his performance as a leader regardless of the last-minute negotiations occurring. Not being reported in American media is marked difference of opinion in Greece; the Greek people are not all of one mind and the possibility that Mr. Tsipras' coalition may fragment in coming days as key ministers leave in disagreement with his direction. Predictions that, once out of the EU, Greece will gradually flourish, are hard to fit with the current observed reality.
1
Listen to Sigmar Gabriel. Europe is counting on Greece to absorb the migrant population along with Italy. The social upheaval is coming.
1
Greece has far too many "public servants", serving a welfare state, where the people are "rewarded" for not working.
Without a strong private sector to "pay the taxes", the welfare state collapses on itself.
You are watching it happen now in real time.-Greece. The soon Europe.
Without a strong private sector to "pay the taxes", the welfare state collapses on itself.
You are watching it happen now in real time.-Greece. The soon Europe.
No denying it, when anything stops money's circulation, an economy derails. This 'anything' includes war, hyperinflation, and loss of credit.
Yet isn't Greece's economy ALREADY derailing as more common makeshift face-to-face measures like barter, IOU's, and other de-specialization show.
Why do alarmists howl about Greece's leaving the Euro? Its GDP is just 1.3% of total Eurozone GDP. Its debt repudiation and Euro exit would be hard on the rest of the Eurozone, but more like a brief headache than any crippling stroke. If Greece's debt is partly or wholly forgiven, forgiveness's effect on other Eurozone spendthrifts will be huge.
Forgiving Greece's debt would in fact transmute non-confidence in Greece's management into non-confidence in Eurozone management. Then voters in other fiscally lax countries would surely pick up on the meaninglessness of debt agreements and demand that their politicians stretch out their palms too.
The klepht spirit animates more than one Greek political party, but likely none more than Syriza. To join the EU, Greek politicians claiming fiscal soundness really crossed their fingers, figuring what the EU did not know would not hurt Greece. So now Greece's pigeons have come home to roost.
If Greece left the Euro and had to face reality, it is hard to believe that politicians of all its parties would not learn a lesson and voters would quit electing thieves.
After trying everything else, only responsibility would be left.
Yet isn't Greece's economy ALREADY derailing as more common makeshift face-to-face measures like barter, IOU's, and other de-specialization show.
Why do alarmists howl about Greece's leaving the Euro? Its GDP is just 1.3% of total Eurozone GDP. Its debt repudiation and Euro exit would be hard on the rest of the Eurozone, but more like a brief headache than any crippling stroke. If Greece's debt is partly or wholly forgiven, forgiveness's effect on other Eurozone spendthrifts will be huge.
Forgiving Greece's debt would in fact transmute non-confidence in Greece's management into non-confidence in Eurozone management. Then voters in other fiscally lax countries would surely pick up on the meaninglessness of debt agreements and demand that their politicians stretch out their palms too.
The klepht spirit animates more than one Greek political party, but likely none more than Syriza. To join the EU, Greek politicians claiming fiscal soundness really crossed their fingers, figuring what the EU did not know would not hurt Greece. So now Greece's pigeons have come home to roost.
If Greece left the Euro and had to face reality, it is hard to believe that politicians of all its parties would not learn a lesson and voters would quit electing thieves.
After trying everything else, only responsibility would be left.
1
And there's no mention of Goldman Sachs, who sold the conservative Greek government on the idea of building up their tourist industry; and then advised them on how to hide their debt load (a la Enron); and then started betting against Greece's ability to pay off those loans. Somebody who lives in New York should be in jail and Greece should be given a break.
4
Brussels and the IFM can do more and better for the fragile economies in Europe they will have to resolve these differences in competitiviness among EU countries the only way is to tember the austerity and create serious plan to increase employment in the fragile economies of the Eurozone once that the dept is repait
It's obvious Greece holds all the cards. It's time for Europe to see it and realize like any creditor, Greece does not have the resources to pay and austerity they are imposing, is the wrong way to proceed. Greece knows it and Europe does also. Europe has been hoping that a miracle will come and then they will somehow win. It isn't happening. Forgive a large part of the debt, don't borrow to Greece based on GDP, and maybe this won't happen again. The US every year forgives debt to Israel and there is a win for both sides. Grow up Europe.
2
Europe must "give permanent financial aid with no conditions" if, in fact, it is to be one union. As I read it, that does make Greece part of Europe. As long as the northern European states see their southern neighbors as distinct countries, failure is inevitable.
1
Why is there never a quote from Greek leaders? Luckily, you have Paul Krugman to speak for them, since most of the words in your stories are from the creditors, not the Greek debtors, who I imagine have quite a bit to say on the other side.
1
Germany and the EU are responible for Grece's problems. And their unwillingness to seek solutition are coming home to roost and the blame will follow. How can the Greek government pay their debt and provide for their pople? The EU's amswer is to reduce pensions. What world do these folks libe I'm ?
2
This new deal, like previous ones is based on a faulty premise. When a bank lends money it is responsible for screening the credit worthiness of the borrower. A loan, like any investment is made for the purpose of generating profits for the bank shareholders.
But when the bank miscalculates, it like any other investor may loose money. This is the way the capitalist system is supposed to operate. There are some borrowers that are better risks than others and some banks that are willing to make more speculative loans than others in exchange for higher interests rates.
When they choose wisely they make money. When they don't they loose. But Europe's central bank has decided to change the rules of the financial game. They want to make risky loans and reap the profits when things go well, but when they don't they want to be indemnified by the Greek people. This is not capitalism this is international blackmail. Why should Greek retiree's have to sacrifice their pensions to insure that a bank in Germany makes a profit from a loan they never should have made in the first place?
The citizens of Greece should vote no to these "heads I win tales you loose schemes" by the big banks. Greece will pay what it can afford, just as any corporation that is reorganized under Chapter 11. Argentina did and recovered as did Iceland and so should Greece.
But when the bank miscalculates, it like any other investor may loose money. This is the way the capitalist system is supposed to operate. There are some borrowers that are better risks than others and some banks that are willing to make more speculative loans than others in exchange for higher interests rates.
When they choose wisely they make money. When they don't they loose. But Europe's central bank has decided to change the rules of the financial game. They want to make risky loans and reap the profits when things go well, but when they don't they want to be indemnified by the Greek people. This is not capitalism this is international blackmail. Why should Greek retiree's have to sacrifice their pensions to insure that a bank in Germany makes a profit from a loan they never should have made in the first place?
The citizens of Greece should vote no to these "heads I win tales you loose schemes" by the big banks. Greece will pay what it can afford, just as any corporation that is reorganized under Chapter 11. Argentina did and recovered as did Iceland and so should Greece.
1
So far, the 18 Eurozone countries have given Greece over $270 billion during the past five years. And yet, here we are, and once again Greece has no money and is broke.
There is now very little sympathy left for the Greeks in Europe. There are about a half a dozen countries in the Eurozone that have a lower standard of living and a higher retirement age than Greece. In addition, Ireland, Lithuania, Spain and Portugal are particularly wary of a debt deal because their citizens have already weathered years of reform and restructuring, and are making significant progress in becoming economically more competitive.
Just because the Greek government decides to have a snap referendum on Sunday, and tells its citizens to reject the bailout terms, doesn't mean that the rest of Europe will, ipso facto, suddenly agree to their demands. And, just as in Greece, the parliaments of a number of Eurozone countries will also first have to give their consent to any new debt deal.
As the president of Lithuania said the other day, the Greeks want to party and expect the Europeans to pay the bill. The question is, when will the party stop? When will the Greeks accept responsibility and finally begin the difficult task of reforming and restructuring their economy, and, hopefully, stop blaming others for their many selfinflicted problems?
Just my two cents.
There is now very little sympathy left for the Greeks in Europe. There are about a half a dozen countries in the Eurozone that have a lower standard of living and a higher retirement age than Greece. In addition, Ireland, Lithuania, Spain and Portugal are particularly wary of a debt deal because their citizens have already weathered years of reform and restructuring, and are making significant progress in becoming economically more competitive.
Just because the Greek government decides to have a snap referendum on Sunday, and tells its citizens to reject the bailout terms, doesn't mean that the rest of Europe will, ipso facto, suddenly agree to their demands. And, just as in Greece, the parliaments of a number of Eurozone countries will also first have to give their consent to any new debt deal.
As the president of Lithuania said the other day, the Greeks want to party and expect the Europeans to pay the bill. The question is, when will the party stop? When will the Greeks accept responsibility and finally begin the difficult task of reforming and restructuring their economy, and, hopefully, stop blaming others for their many selfinflicted problems?
Just my two cents.
3
The silver ling in this cloud as far as Germany is concerned is that the cheap euro means that the Germans can continue to sell lots of Mercedes and Porsches.
Sigmar Gabriel's comment that “Europe cannot give permanent financial aid with no conditions” misses the mark. If Europe is going to achieve unity and nationhood as an integrated whole, it is going to have to put up with some of the profligacy that the Germans see in the way the Greeks are behaving. Otherwise, the EU is going to gradually dissolve and disappear.
2
I'm sad to say that successive Greek governments have made the bed of thorns for their citizens, and now they're forced to sleep on it. Mr. Tsipras is playing the populist game (reminds us of someone else in the States...wink, wink) by putting the onus on ECB for the country's financial morass. When Greeks believe they have a right to retire at 50 from hazardous jobs (work at beauty parlors is hazardous) to collect a pension for the rest of their lives, when they rampantly cheat on taxes, when labor unions hobble the government from governing effectively, and when the kleptocratic cabal of businessmen game the system with impunity, you have a government that's completely hollowed out inside while the face looks flush with health. Why exactly should the citizens of EU countries pay for the reckless, Bacchanalian (I mean it figuratively) excesses of the Greek people so they can live the dolce vita at the expense of others? Where exactly is fairness and equity in this scenario?
While I empathize with the poorest pensioners who're likely to be forced to eke out a hard life if the "No" referendum passes, it's also true they've had no compunction to exploit the system and evade their responsibility as regular, tax-paying citizens. The specter of an authoritarian Germany leading the EU in "pauperizing" the Greek nation and inflicting hardship on its citizens is a false story line -- and in their hearts, if not their tongues, the Greeks know it too. Pride alone is holding them back.
While I empathize with the poorest pensioners who're likely to be forced to eke out a hard life if the "No" referendum passes, it's also true they've had no compunction to exploit the system and evade their responsibility as regular, tax-paying citizens. The specter of an authoritarian Germany leading the EU in "pauperizing" the Greek nation and inflicting hardship on its citizens is a false story line -- and in their hearts, if not their tongues, the Greeks know it too. Pride alone is holding them back.
3
The EU tries to put all the burdens on the Greek pensioners, not on their own banks and parties like Goldman Sachs.
This is the exact same sentiment that says the poor are only poor because they're lazy.
What is never mentioned in the one sided reports about Greece:
- Greece has no unemployment benefits, nor child benefits, Greece social security system is overwhelmingly just pensions.
- Greece has ALREADY cut massively into pensions and is expect to lower them 20 times faster than others (1% in 1 year vs Belgium's 0.2% in FOUR years)
- Greece has ALREADY fired thousands of government workers and is expected to fire even more until about 20-30% is fired in total.
- Greece can't be thrown out of the EU nor the Euro, they have to leave themselves, but the ECB can bankrupt the Greek banks, if they really want to.
- Greek aid goes 90% from EU taxpayers to EU banks, so these do not default on their loans. It's a de facto 240 billion Euro bailout of French and German banks.
- if the EU wants rich Greek tax avoiders to cough up billions, they can force Switzerland to reveal these people
In short: This is 440 million rich Europeans telling 7 million Greeks to go f--- themselves.
This is the exact same sentiment that says the poor are only poor because they're lazy.
What is never mentioned in the one sided reports about Greece:
- Greece has no unemployment benefits, nor child benefits, Greece social security system is overwhelmingly just pensions.
- Greece has ALREADY cut massively into pensions and is expect to lower them 20 times faster than others (1% in 1 year vs Belgium's 0.2% in FOUR years)
- Greece has ALREADY fired thousands of government workers and is expected to fire even more until about 20-30% is fired in total.
- Greece can't be thrown out of the EU nor the Euro, they have to leave themselves, but the ECB can bankrupt the Greek banks, if they really want to.
- Greek aid goes 90% from EU taxpayers to EU banks, so these do not default on their loans. It's a de facto 240 billion Euro bailout of French and German banks.
- if the EU wants rich Greek tax avoiders to cough up billions, they can force Switzerland to reveal these people
In short: This is 440 million rich Europeans telling 7 million Greeks to go f--- themselves.
6
You conveniently forget, or don't know, that there are a half a dozen countries in the Eurozone that have a lower standard of living and a higher retirement age than Greece. For obvious reasons, there is very little sympathy in those countries for Greece since, under Eurozone rules, all 18 countries will have to contribute to yet another bailout package.
In short, your statement that "This is 440 million rich Europeans telling 7 million Greeks to go ...." has a significant element of exaggeration in it, or, perhaps, we disagree on the definition of who is "rich" in this context.
In short, your statement that "This is 440 million rich Europeans telling 7 million Greeks to go ...." has a significant element of exaggeration in it, or, perhaps, we disagree on the definition of who is "rich" in this context.
1
Thanks for providing another perspective -- especially since I happen to have a great fondness for Greece and its people, having spent many a happy Summer there in my younger years.
But you don't have to be an economist or a political science major to see that Tsipras, giddy with his unexpected victory, has behaved from day one like a bratty, nose-thumbing child rather than a serious and responsible adult, doing the absolute minimum he could get away with to secure the loans he needed, and then having the gall to turn around and slap Germany in the face by demanding war reparations that he had no chance of getting at this point -- his only 'long term fiscal plan', it would appear! I have NOT been impressed.
But you don't have to be an economist or a political science major to see that Tsipras, giddy with his unexpected victory, has behaved from day one like a bratty, nose-thumbing child rather than a serious and responsible adult, doing the absolute minimum he could get away with to secure the loans he needed, and then having the gall to turn around and slap Germany in the face by demanding war reparations that he had no chance of getting at this point -- his only 'long term fiscal plan', it would appear! I have NOT been impressed.
1
Austerity and the lack of banking regulations has driven up the cost for all those in trouble. Get off your idea that you can impose deadlines and it will fix essentially the problems you started..
1
Funny how lots of reactions to this article speak of socialism and even Marxism when the right-wing government of the US (George Bush's) was responsible for the 2008 world-wide financial disaster.
5
Mr Juncker lies saying that this kind of democracy is not appropriate to great Greek Nation.
The Greek vote is a clear demonstration of democracy, as in the ancient “Polis”, where all the people was called to vote to validate important government's decisions.
A methodology which is at the basis of the western democracy.
Also Ms Merkel is making pure Propaganda, saying that the Greek vote will be devastating for Greece, while it will be such for EU.
The vote is very simple:
YES means accepting the Troika's SLAVERY and return to the 2014 socioeconomic conditions,
NO means rejecting the Troika's blackmails and choosing FREEDOM to self-decide its future.
What is CERTAIN is that the EU and the Eurozone will not be the same after the Greek vote, whatever will be the result.
Yesterday Mr Paul Krugman wrote in his column that the Greek crisis would have never happened in USA, because there if a State has heavy problems, the Central Government and the FED would intervene jointly and immediately.
But EU is not a Nation and doesn't want to be, so has no Central Government which can deal with the Central Bank to compensate the losses of a State with the surplus of the other States.
In those conditions the Greek crisis highlighted the usefulness of the whole EU, a bunch of Nationalistic and Egoistic Countries with no Solidarity, which should be shut down ASAP, while the ECB makes its last plan to let return softly all the Eurozone Countries to their previous floating Currencies.
The Greek vote is a clear demonstration of democracy, as in the ancient “Polis”, where all the people was called to vote to validate important government's decisions.
A methodology which is at the basis of the western democracy.
Also Ms Merkel is making pure Propaganda, saying that the Greek vote will be devastating for Greece, while it will be such for EU.
The vote is very simple:
YES means accepting the Troika's SLAVERY and return to the 2014 socioeconomic conditions,
NO means rejecting the Troika's blackmails and choosing FREEDOM to self-decide its future.
What is CERTAIN is that the EU and the Eurozone will not be the same after the Greek vote, whatever will be the result.
Yesterday Mr Paul Krugman wrote in his column that the Greek crisis would have never happened in USA, because there if a State has heavy problems, the Central Government and the FED would intervene jointly and immediately.
But EU is not a Nation and doesn't want to be, so has no Central Government which can deal with the Central Bank to compensate the losses of a State with the surplus of the other States.
In those conditions the Greek crisis highlighted the usefulness of the whole EU, a bunch of Nationalistic and Egoistic Countries with no Solidarity, which should be shut down ASAP, while the ECB makes its last plan to let return softly all the Eurozone Countries to their previous floating Currencies.
2
A growth strategy for Greece is not credible. Based on the past, Greece has been inflating the economy (superficial growth) for many years with borrowed money. If it hasn’t been successful in the past, it won’t be successful in the future as long as they stay within the Eurozone. There is no sudden evidence for improved competitiveness that would allow a growth without expanding the public sector.
Years of mismanagement and corruption have created a system that in the end will fail. Austerity would be a “lean” strategy focusing on removing dysfunctional entities within the economy and to build new ones that could be part of a competitive economy. There is not enough support or will to embrace austerity as a strategy forward.
Historically, Greece has defaulted many times before. This “learned helplessness” is a behavior that surface even today. You could see the unwillingness to address corruption and obsolete legislation. Everyone sees it but embarrassing little is done to change it.
Leaving the Eurozone will allow Greece to get back to a level of competitiveness that would allow growth. The people in Greece would be affected and imported goods would be very expensive for most people. Still, this might be the only way to get back while accepting corruption and mismanagement to continue. The Greek people have voted for non-austerity. They probably see the dysfunctional economy but don’t know how change it. They want something else and the Eurozone cannot provide that.
Years of mismanagement and corruption have created a system that in the end will fail. Austerity would be a “lean” strategy focusing on removing dysfunctional entities within the economy and to build new ones that could be part of a competitive economy. There is not enough support or will to embrace austerity as a strategy forward.
Historically, Greece has defaulted many times before. This “learned helplessness” is a behavior that surface even today. You could see the unwillingness to address corruption and obsolete legislation. Everyone sees it but embarrassing little is done to change it.
Leaving the Eurozone will allow Greece to get back to a level of competitiveness that would allow growth. The people in Greece would be affected and imported goods would be very expensive for most people. Still, this might be the only way to get back while accepting corruption and mismanagement to continue. The Greek people have voted for non-austerity. They probably see the dysfunctional economy but don’t know how change it. They want something else and the Eurozone cannot provide that.
2
From news reports, the Greek politicians have convinced the citizens that other countries and businesses "owe" Greece the right to default on loans. Uh, the economy is going to collapse there and cause more turmoil in other countries from defaults on those loans.
See the man who claims to lead Europe talking about feeling betrayed because his efforts weren't valued - instead of coming with arguments - I only felt contempt. This is not a leader - it is man playing poker.
I'm getting tired of this media narrative of "deep fissures in European unity". There's no evidence of any fissures. Europe is united, against Greece. The only question is how far do we go in pushing Greece to pay back the money its been given.
Also, merkels comment is just stupid. If Greece fails to stay in the euro, that says nothing about the euro or Europe. It does say a lot about Greece and their incompetence.
Also, merkels comment is just stupid. If Greece fails to stay in the euro, that says nothing about the euro or Europe. It does say a lot about Greece and their incompetence.
1
@ Caezar
Merkel's comment is not stupid, it's just neutral like most of her statements. However, you are right about the deep fissures nonsense. In fact the reverse is true. What has been significant during these talks is the unity of the Eurogroup and isolation of Greece.
Merkel's comment is not stupid, it's just neutral like most of her statements. However, you are right about the deep fissures nonsense. In fact the reverse is true. What has been significant during these talks is the unity of the Eurogroup and isolation of Greece.
1
The EU is an artificial union envolving the nations that have only two things in common:they are located in non-English speaking Europe in terms of geography and speak English if they want to understand each other.
@nikolai
russia
How are things in Putin's troll center today?
russia
How are things in Putin's troll center today?
i support zuyganov rather than putin
The truth of this proposition seems to have escaped notice until now. Greece is a Ponzi Scheme and the rest of the Eurozone the mark.
Enough.
As a national leader Tsipras is a failure. His failure means the Greek state itself has failed.
At some point in the not-too-distant future another military dictatorship will rise to replace Syriza, if only to keep order. It's inevitable. Not only is Syriza bankrupt in terms of ideas about how to save Greece, its leadership lacks courage and is delusional.
Under the new government's auspices order will be maintained at whatever cost to civil liberties (unimaginable, probably) and the drachma will return. The new currency won't be accepted beyond Greece's borders. Hyperinflation will then burn the Greek nation to the ground.
Then, having sown the wind and reaped the whirlwind and now thoroughly impoverished by their own pig-headed arrogance and incompetence dire circumstances will finally force the Greek people to confront the basic choice they've avoided all this time: modernize, or die. Either build a modern economy and administrative systems of government or disappear into civilization-eclipsing barbarity.
Enough.
As a national leader Tsipras is a failure. His failure means the Greek state itself has failed.
At some point in the not-too-distant future another military dictatorship will rise to replace Syriza, if only to keep order. It's inevitable. Not only is Syriza bankrupt in terms of ideas about how to save Greece, its leadership lacks courage and is delusional.
Under the new government's auspices order will be maintained at whatever cost to civil liberties (unimaginable, probably) and the drachma will return. The new currency won't be accepted beyond Greece's borders. Hyperinflation will then burn the Greek nation to the ground.
Then, having sown the wind and reaped the whirlwind and now thoroughly impoverished by their own pig-headed arrogance and incompetence dire circumstances will finally force the Greek people to confront the basic choice they've avoided all this time: modernize, or die. Either build a modern economy and administrative systems of government or disappear into civilization-eclipsing barbarity.
2
It's almost a cliche in how far the average person, entitled Americans especially, will go to avoid responsibility and play the victim. Nobody forces a fully grown man to borrow money nor will all the protests and defaults he can muster absolve him of his reality.
Alexis Tsipras has announced that he would step down, should the Greeks opt for a "yes" vote on Sunday! For him it's a matter of hubris to persuade the Greeks to say "no" to the bailout deal.
He shouldn't be too over-confident that he has the support of the Greek majority and the vulnerability of the political situation in Europe.
He thinks he can defy Greece's creditors and the EU leaders, knowing the crises we face.
He shouldn't be too over-confident that he has the support of the Greek majority and the vulnerability of the political situation in Europe.
He thinks he can defy Greece's creditors and the EU leaders, knowing the crises we face.
Tsipras is a bungling, amateur, Marxist, manipulator. He is willing to bring Greece back into the Ottoman domain. His five month reign is comparable to the Asia Minor Catastrophe of the 1920's.
6
Ridiculous; he recognizes that the seriously corrupt, well-appointed oligarchs who created this situation want to foist the pain of the solution on ordinary people. His budget is sound, with significant cuts, just not to the weakest and most vulnerable. His proposals would be no worse than what has decidedly failed to work since 2009. Every single government prior to his has capitulated to their connected cronies; finally someone is acting in the interests of the average citizen.
3
This is what happens when governments spend money they don't have or borrow without any plan for how they will pay it back. Shame on the Greeks for doing it, but also shame on the rest of Europe for letting them do it.
The negotiation fiasco is what happens when politicians conduct bisiness. It also happens when people are more interested in what they get out of a deal than those whom they represent. It is very difficult to strike a fair and honest agreement when everyone in the room is a liar.
Oh sorry. I'm redundant. Those second and third statements in the above paragraph say exactly the same thing as the first.
The negotiation fiasco is what happens when politicians conduct bisiness. It also happens when people are more interested in what they get out of a deal than those whom they represent. It is very difficult to strike a fair and honest agreement when everyone in the room is a liar.
Oh sorry. I'm redundant. Those second and third statements in the above paragraph say exactly the same thing as the first.
2
Apparently democratic decision making is anathema to the powers that be in European finance (of course that is also true in the US).
We will see what the Greeks decide but at least it will be the Greeks, not some "technocrat" all of whom, BTW, have political agendas - usually those of their masters as has been fully demonstrated by the farce of the Troika pretending to negotiate.
We will see what the Greeks decide but at least it will be the Greeks, not some "technocrat" all of whom, BTW, have political agendas - usually those of their masters as has been fully demonstrated by the farce of the Troika pretending to negotiate.
4
Greece is offered a last-minute deal... before the next last-minute deal that is.. and on and on... Sounds like somebody has blinked already.
2
Let the dominoes begin my friends. First start with the most socialist countries, all the way to the socialist lite countries. Leftism = Death, one way or another.
1
Who cares, the brainwashing leaders get away rich.
Imagine what might have been if the Troika had gone into the negotiation with an open mind, a spirit of collaboration and pragmatism, and at least a minimal regard for ordinary Greek citizens.
3
I like Tsipras. Sorry to say that the only leaders here that are in the same league are Sanders and Warren, and possibly Biden.
4
The Greek crisis has reached a point of no return. Any additional bailout money will only prolong the social agony taking place since the crisis started five years ago.
So far, Greece and the Troika have been engaged into endless negotiations without addressing the main problem. That is, Greece cannot grow out of a draconian fiscal adjustment program at the current level of public indebtedness.
The question is whether Berlin/Brussels are ready to accept huge financial losses to their banks - ECB from a haircut on Greece's debt.
So far, Greece and the Troika have been engaged into endless negotiations without addressing the main problem. That is, Greece cannot grow out of a draconian fiscal adjustment program at the current level of public indebtedness.
The question is whether Berlin/Brussels are ready to accept huge financial losses to their banks - ECB from a haircut on Greece's debt.
4
...and just who are the morons (analysts) who kept lending to Greece despite it all? We can only guess a pretty penny beckoned. Those lenders should've plugged their ears and sailed on. Or maybe instead if the loans were collateralized we'd soon be seeing the Parthenon reunited with the Elgin Marbles in their new home at the British Museum.
Hoverwver we get there, the story at the end will just devolve into another gripe from the Greeks -- a Euro zone country in good albeit somewhat diminished standing -- about being saved, savaged and salvaged once again by their neighbors to the north.
Hoverwver we get there, the story at the end will just devolve into another gripe from the Greeks -- a Euro zone country in good albeit somewhat diminished standing -- about being saved, savaged and salvaged once again by their neighbors to the north.
1
Greece is a nation of beggars without a bowl. Europe should cut them loose, strengthen the Euro and restore international fiscal comity and markets.
The Greeks owe $300 billion. It is time they realized they are a pauper nation and that it is their own fault. Time to pay the piper.
The Greeks owe $300 billion. It is time they realized they are a pauper nation and that it is their own fault. Time to pay the piper.
9
Bravo to Tsipras for this bold move. George Papandreou tried to call a referendum in 2012 and he was shot down immediately by the technocrats who were ruling at the time. As a result he fell on his own sword and the farce of a bail-out loans continued. Nothing has changed, no progress has been made. Austerity has done nothing but create more debt and poverty. You do not help someone in debt by providing them with more debt. But this is obviously the way the EU operates. This is effectively what the EU is saying to Greece:
You stuffed up.
The only way out is if you accept our loans
The only way we will give you our loans is if you do what we say.
If this is not a take-over I do not know what is...Problem is this is not a company or a household. This is a country and what the EU is proposing is nothing short of an occupation.
You stuffed up.
The only way out is if you accept our loans
The only way we will give you our loans is if you do what we say.
If this is not a take-over I do not know what is...Problem is this is not a company or a household. This is a country and what the EU is proposing is nothing short of an occupation.
10
The issue is simple Greece wants free money but the creditors wants to be paid back. Thus it is inevitable that Greece will default and will leave the EU.
8
The present Greek government does appear amateurish - well, not quite "with it." Had it made clear @ start of negotiations that any "deal" would be subject to a national referendum, a delay in debt due dates at least might have been possible. Apparently immune to the basic notions of diplomacy, Tsipras has decided to play by his own rule book (as well as increase the Geek debt what with thecosts involved in organizing a referendum.)
3
And he is counting on tow things for the referendum: the no voters are either immature - for they can not conceive the chaos that will follow - or they have enough money stashed away (which is true) so they just play the act.
Six years and counting. Looks like a deal is just around the corner.
2
The 'game' Tsipras is playing is deadly serious. It is the shot across the bow of those two big to fail, whose flunkies fill out the ranks of the Troika and most European (and US) governments. I stand with the Greek people. It is time for banks and bankers to take a haircut and time for people to have provenance over corporations. It is time for the winds of change to blow austerity governments out, and socialist, populist governments in, lest we all end up with law and order fascist governments instead.
5
They already took a haircut a couple of years ago, 50%. Another haircut would lead most reasonable people to come to the conclusion it is not real smart to lend money to Greece. Would you buy a Greek sovereign bond if there was the excellent possibility you would only get half back?
6
Tsipras is a principled leader standing by his convictions and pushing forward a platform he was democratically elected to implement. Wow. If only we had more politicians on the left like that.
6
Tsipras can't even stand next to any Canadian politician's picture my friend.
Sure enough there is always a possibility and this would to perpetuate the fundamentally flawed economic system. In the case of Greece the best option would to impound the money of all the rich and elite who all hoard their money in offshore banks and tax havens. The Greek Government should publish all the creditors and the world should note if some debt should be forgiven . I can bet that it is the money of only the poor and needy that they cannot withdraw, all the while all the bankers live high on the hog.
9
I dunno. Every criticism my fellow commenters hurl at the Greeks seems to be a low-tech version of what goes on here all the time. Instead of wealthy Athenians pretending they don't have swimming pools, we have mega-corporations pretending they have little US income...
People are reviling the Greeks for wanting a modestly decent life and the time to enjoy it. Exactly how much money do you think all those wicked pensioners have, or earned over their lifetimes? As a veteran of NYC commutes to Manhattan from Queens for most of my life, I can damn well understand the desire to retire at 50 while one*s body and mind are still reasonably functional, so there can be a little enjoyment from books and a nice meal and the grandchildren.
I thought as an American I ought to be entitled to that too. I know what it*s like to be the victim of a profligate spender who runs with the assets you've so painfully tried to accumulate, and to pay, for the rest of one*s life, for someone else*s perfidy.
The Greeks are like me. We don't want to dine every day on Brie and lobster. We just want to be able to afford that can of salmon and the store brand of cranberry-pomegranate juice. It*s unworthy of all of you to mock that simple dream.
People are reviling the Greeks for wanting a modestly decent life and the time to enjoy it. Exactly how much money do you think all those wicked pensioners have, or earned over their lifetimes? As a veteran of NYC commutes to Manhattan from Queens for most of my life, I can damn well understand the desire to retire at 50 while one*s body and mind are still reasonably functional, so there can be a little enjoyment from books and a nice meal and the grandchildren.
I thought as an American I ought to be entitled to that too. I know what it*s like to be the victim of a profligate spender who runs with the assets you've so painfully tried to accumulate, and to pay, for the rest of one*s life, for someone else*s perfidy.
The Greeks are like me. We don't want to dine every day on Brie and lobster. We just want to be able to afford that can of salmon and the store brand of cranberry-pomegranate juice. It*s unworthy of all of you to mock that simple dream.
11
And if you haven't saved enough by the age of 50 to afford the lifestyle you crave, who do you think should make up the difference?
4
That's one of the reasons our country has been the envy of the world SCA! We don't retire at 50, so can have real salmon, we don't own 2-3 houses untaxed so our country offers social support and security and protection only dreamed off elsewhere, we don't cheat on the IRS so that we don't borrow from Europe to go on vacation.
Is Greece one of Dennis Hastert's lobby clients.
Enough is enough. Goodbye Greece.
4
Amen. They are beggars without a bowl.
That's an interesting new notion or concept. Did you coin it? Just for my curiosity.
On can only surmise that the credit grantors are less interested in credit-worthiness them the prospect of actually recouping their investment through interest payments and considerations of principle repayment is far down the list. Let's do the math and we might discover that interest payments actually repaid a sum equal to principle. And that's how the game is played.
2
The only thing that Greece could perhaps do something about ... seems to be the one thing that they won't do anything about: clientelism, and not paying taxes.
The Greek economy is dominated by a very small nomenclatura ... which enriches itself. It's a place where "the climate suits my clothes" ... one can be poor without the problems of being poor farther north. Is this why clientelism is common in southern european cultures and not in the north?
(See Clientelism, Interests, and Representation ... Simona Piattoni)
From a New York Times article in 2010: " In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.
So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools."
Later the article goes on to say "He said there were only a few thousand citizens in this country of 11 million who last year declared an income of more than $132,000."
Greece is going to default to protect people who lie about whether they have a swimming pool in the wealthy neighborhoods of Athensl, and claim they make less than $130 k$
On the otherhand, just why do greek taxes ask whether you have a swimming pool? Particularly as everybody lies ... with impunity?
The Greek economy is dominated by a very small nomenclatura ... which enriches itself. It's a place where "the climate suits my clothes" ... one can be poor without the problems of being poor farther north. Is this why clientelism is common in southern european cultures and not in the north?
(See Clientelism, Interests, and Representation ... Simona Piattoni)
From a New York Times article in 2010: " In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.
So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools."
Later the article goes on to say "He said there were only a few thousand citizens in this country of 11 million who last year declared an income of more than $132,000."
Greece is going to default to protect people who lie about whether they have a swimming pool in the wealthy neighborhoods of Athensl, and claim they make less than $130 k$
On the otherhand, just why do greek taxes ask whether you have a swimming pool? Particularly as everybody lies ... with impunity?
8
Let's look the future for the Greece.
It seems Greece will let go from Eurozone but not EU. This at least give some hope to Greece.
However, with this level of debt load, even it s own money decades will pass to reach the surface or out of the woods.
Greek people meanwhile demand confrontation with the past politicians and their party's , how they old the nation?
we are talking here lost decades 2 decades minimum.
Meanwhile young generation of Greek's will emigrate all over the Europe and world, because of this very long dark prospect.
Greece will understand and correct herself never doing this fatal mistake.
Politicians will pay this very dearly, Bot Syriza previous center left and right because they sacked the nation.
It seems Greece will let go from Eurozone but not EU. This at least give some hope to Greece.
However, with this level of debt load, even it s own money decades will pass to reach the surface or out of the woods.
Greek people meanwhile demand confrontation with the past politicians and their party's , how they old the nation?
we are talking here lost decades 2 decades minimum.
Meanwhile young generation of Greek's will emigrate all over the Europe and world, because of this very long dark prospect.
Greece will understand and correct herself never doing this fatal mistake.
Politicians will pay this very dearly, Bot Syriza previous center left and right because they sacked the nation.
3
The people of Greece never wanted the Euro, never got the Euro, and don't want it now.
1
Thanks to Paul Krugman for pointing out what nobody else has dared to say. The Brussels game here is a political one: to discredit and destroy the current Greek government.
Prime Minister Tsipras called their bluff with his democratic referendum. Since the Greek government has no mandate to agree to what Brussels was demanding, the only democratic solution is to submit the question to Greek voters. It was amusing to watch the Brussels gang react in panic.
Brussels has long operated on the line that Brussels knows best, and that democracy (or "democracy") is too important to be left to the voters.
Prime Minister Tsipras called their bluff with his democratic referendum. Since the Greek government has no mandate to agree to what Brussels was demanding, the only democratic solution is to submit the question to Greek voters. It was amusing to watch the Brussels gang react in panic.
Brussels has long operated on the line that Brussels knows best, and that democracy (or "democracy") is too important to be left to the voters.
8
Poppycock. They are a pauper nation by their own choices. The retire at 50 expecting a pension the rest of their lives, evade taxes, work half a day at made up jobs, borrowed $300 billion to pay for it all and now can't and won't pay. Europe should let them drown in their thoughtless, slovenly economy.
6
The creditors are not trying to destroy the current Greek government. They are treating the current Greek government the same way that they treated the last Greek government five months ago.
2
Notafan, the venom you excrete, the lies about many good people you don't know and can't know, in a land far from yours, says more of you than of them. The very virulence of your malice suggests some problem that is not of a political nature; you need to consider what that may be.
3
Economics, austerity, ECB, EU, etc, ctc. One topic touched upon was the EU's immigration problem with the rise of nationalism. That bares fixing over all.
1
The Greeks are, of course, historically famous for concocting the "Trojan horse" stratagem. Their current ploy to bamboozle the EU with stalling, temper tantrums, indefensible logic, victimization, et al could well be dubbed the "Trojan horses--t" tactic.
These Syriza guys are clowns who want free lunch while simultaneously biting the financial hand that feeds them. Some debt relief may be in order but their adolescent, intractable behavior in light of their precarious straits is tiresome, insufferable, and extremely dangerous to their citizens' well-being .
Hopefully, some accommodation will be reached betwixt Greece & the EU and the long-term suffering (should default occur) on the part of the great majority of Greeks can be tempered.
Just to teach Tsipras & Varoufakis a little lesson, in addition to various structural reforms, the EU should, as a condition of their further financial support of Greece, insist that the terrible twosome wear ties to subsequent negotiations. The Greek dynamic duo (?) are very much like irascible schoolboys so a dose of discipline would serve them and their nation well. A certain amount of socialism is necessary in every country but these Syriza people are nut-jobs in the extreme.
These Syriza guys are clowns who want free lunch while simultaneously biting the financial hand that feeds them. Some debt relief may be in order but their adolescent, intractable behavior in light of their precarious straits is tiresome, insufferable, and extremely dangerous to their citizens' well-being .
Hopefully, some accommodation will be reached betwixt Greece & the EU and the long-term suffering (should default occur) on the part of the great majority of Greeks can be tempered.
Just to teach Tsipras & Varoufakis a little lesson, in addition to various structural reforms, the EU should, as a condition of their further financial support of Greece, insist that the terrible twosome wear ties to subsequent negotiations. The Greek dynamic duo (?) are very much like irascible schoolboys so a dose of discipline would serve them and their nation well. A certain amount of socialism is necessary in every country but these Syriza people are nut-jobs in the extreme.
2
The idea that Greece's economy has been reduced by harsh conditions imposed by outsiders is nonsense. Five years ago Greece had a GDP level far higher than its actual ability to create wealth. Greece faced the unpleasant choice of either staying in the Euro and reducing its GDP via unemployment or exiting the Euro and reducing its GDP via a reduced currency value. Greece choose the former. Austerity had nothing to do with it.
Three years ago private bond holders were hit with an effective 60% haircut on their holdings http://iie.com/publications/wp/wp13-8.pdf. Now its the turn for the public sector bond holders to get their haircut. With such a track record, who on earth would lend Greece more money? Yet this is what the likes of Paul Krugman are demanding take place. If Krugman offers to be the first one to stand in line to lend more money to the Greeks and put his wealth on the line in the process I'll take him more seriously.
This is a bad marriage that should never have taken place. The divorce will, as always, be painful at first but in the end everyone will be happier. The Greeks will get their "freedom" and the Europeans will get lower-risk cheap Mediterranean holidays. Happy days.
Three years ago private bond holders were hit with an effective 60% haircut on their holdings http://iie.com/publications/wp/wp13-8.pdf. Now its the turn for the public sector bond holders to get their haircut. With such a track record, who on earth would lend Greece more money? Yet this is what the likes of Paul Krugman are demanding take place. If Krugman offers to be the first one to stand in line to lend more money to the Greeks and put his wealth on the line in the process I'll take him more seriously.
This is a bad marriage that should never have taken place. The divorce will, as always, be painful at first but in the end everyone will be happier. The Greeks will get their "freedom" and the Europeans will get lower-risk cheap Mediterranean holidays. Happy days.
14
Very good points. I stopped paying attention to Krugman as his opinions seem totally based on the ideology of the person or leader of country he is writing about rather than the facts.
3
This is agonizing, and most of all to Greece. It's like watching doctors bleed a patient first, then restore just enough blood so the patient is still breathing--but not a teaspoon more. Not enough to get the patient well, or even ambulatory, but just enough to keep the patient alive and crawling. And no end in sight. Greece should get out while it still has any strength left in it.
7
The problem with Greece is that it not only demands the forgiving of its past debt, but also demands new debt to make the country run. It is a country that is simply not self-sustaining.
8
Oh, come on already. There is NO hope for a deal. The Greeks are adamant about demanding their free lunch and will never do what the Troika demands. Tsipris is a 3rd rater and will never rise to the occasion. Wish it were otherwise. Let's move on already.
5
We've created a financial system that privileges and raises above all others the worst people possible. Is it so insane, that after five years of having the life and hope choked out of you, to vote whether you might abandon this global financial capitalism and start anew? In the next five years, the world will continue to profoundly change and we'll all look back at the rise of Reagan, Thatcher and this predatory sociopathy called neoliberalism and shudder. I'm surprised it's gone on this long and the TPP will prove to be its final downfall.
3
The problems with Greece and the Euro started when they joined, because the Greeks were not truthful about their balance sheet, with many off-sheet items which in fact were major debt obligations. Many in the EU were aware of some of this but "let it go by".
It will probably be better for Greece and the EU to part financial ways. It will be painful, but the cheap drachma will result in much trade, and more tourism.
Of course, the pensioners will suffer a great deal. The banks will have no credit outside of Greece, and the exodus of young people will continue. But, like the demise of Lehman Brothers, this will be a signal event which will prompt more sensible resolution of the issues which face Ireland, Iberia and Italy. It will also result in more intelligent arrangements with the countries, such as Croatia and Rumania, which seek to join the Euro and Schengen groups.
It will probably be better for Greece and the EU to part financial ways. It will be painful, but the cheap drachma will result in much trade, and more tourism.
Of course, the pensioners will suffer a great deal. The banks will have no credit outside of Greece, and the exodus of young people will continue. But, like the demise of Lehman Brothers, this will be a signal event which will prompt more sensible resolution of the issues which face Ireland, Iberia and Italy. It will also result in more intelligent arrangements with the countries, such as Croatia and Rumania, which seek to join the Euro and Schengen groups.
6
Don't you just love all the letters from Liberals, a.k.a. Socialists, Progressives, that just like to blame everyone but the actual culprit that brought the current problems on themselves - da ta !!! - duh, the Greeks.
Who spent all the money, who gave out ridiculous pensions, who established ridiculously low retirement ages, who did not collect taxes, who doesn't produce significant products the world needs, who did not establish societal norms promoting education, democracy, ad naseum...
Tragic that the liberal writers like to blame anyone but the perpetrator, I.e. EU, austerity, etc., etc. Just like they do with their kids today - no losers, everyone is a winner, give a trophy to everyone. Too bad that when they all get out into the real world without their momies and daddies they'll be in for a rude awakening as the real world will demand - either follow orders and be successful or hit the road.
Who spent all the money, who gave out ridiculous pensions, who established ridiculously low retirement ages, who did not collect taxes, who doesn't produce significant products the world needs, who did not establish societal norms promoting education, democracy, ad naseum...
Tragic that the liberal writers like to blame anyone but the perpetrator, I.e. EU, austerity, etc., etc. Just like they do with their kids today - no losers, everyone is a winner, give a trophy to everyone. Too bad that when they all get out into the real world without their momies and daddies they'll be in for a rude awakening as the real world will demand - either follow orders and be successful or hit the road.
4
I am a liberal and I agree with you entirely. This is not about liberals and conservatives. It is about paying what you owe.
1
Looks like Tspiras' hardball (hilarious that threatening a democratic referendum is seen as hardball, isn't it?) is scaring the EU into doing some real negotiating instead of bullying.
It seems clear that the EU 'negotiators' are really afraid of a referendum and their intransigence toward the nation they indebted has been intended to get rid of Tspiras.
Didn't work. "Juncker feels betrayed by Greece"? surely the reverse is truer.
It seems clear that the EU 'negotiators' are really afraid of a referendum and their intransigence toward the nation they indebted has been intended to get rid of Tspiras.
Didn't work. "Juncker feels betrayed by Greece"? surely the reverse is truer.
4
From a German's perspective:
Due to the fact that Greece owes a big part of its dept to Germany and is paid from German taxes news coverage of the Greek crysis in German media has been huge since the beginning. If a referendum would take place in Germany today it could be taken for granted that Germany would not agree to any help for Greece. This puts pressure on German politics too and will make it very difficult for Merkel to agree to anymore compromises. Greece is known for beeing a country with little industry, big corruption and huge tax evasion issues. After lending over €360 Billion (€80 Billion) to a country with just 11 Million people and still little to no solutions those issues there is little confidence in German population that those are loans well invested. People in Germany feel mostely sorry for the people who suffer in Greece but there is no trust in the Greek government nor in the EU that anything will change with further loans.
Due to the fact that Greece owes a big part of its dept to Germany and is paid from German taxes news coverage of the Greek crysis in German media has been huge since the beginning. If a referendum would take place in Germany today it could be taken for granted that Germany would not agree to any help for Greece. This puts pressure on German politics too and will make it very difficult for Merkel to agree to anymore compromises. Greece is known for beeing a country with little industry, big corruption and huge tax evasion issues. After lending over €360 Billion (€80 Billion) to a country with just 11 Million people and still little to no solutions those issues there is little confidence in German population that those are loans well invested. People in Germany feel mostely sorry for the people who suffer in Greece but there is no trust in the Greek government nor in the EU that anything will change with further loans.
20
I believe you are really naïve at best.
in your own words "Greece is known for beeing a country with little industry, big corruption and huge tax evasion issues. After lending over €360 Billion (€80 Billion) to a country with just 11 Million people and still little to no solutions"
You are claiming that Greece Corruption, tax evasion problems was tried to solve with German tax payers money. Who does such a thing? for what reason?
You gave 11 million people 360 billion euro is equal blind approval 5 million USD home loan to who works for wall mart 15 usd/hour. Which is happened in USA but Everybody understood that it is a fraud by lender side not only the loaner side.
Germany and others predatory lending to Greece cannot be explain your naïve and good intention words. This is a financial felony minimum.
in your own words "Greece is known for beeing a country with little industry, big corruption and huge tax evasion issues. After lending over €360 Billion (€80 Billion) to a country with just 11 Million people and still little to no solutions"
You are claiming that Greece Corruption, tax evasion problems was tried to solve with German tax payers money. Who does such a thing? for what reason?
You gave 11 million people 360 billion euro is equal blind approval 5 million USD home loan to who works for wall mart 15 usd/hour. Which is happened in USA but Everybody understood that it is a fraud by lender side not only the loaner side.
Germany and others predatory lending to Greece cannot be explain your naïve and good intention words. This is a financial felony minimum.
4
All of that's true with one big omission: Nazi Germany; 150,000 dead Greek Jews; a thousand Greek villages destroyed with hundreds of thousands murdered or made slaves. I hold no brief for the Greeks. This is their fault. But no German, no German should date criticize them. Germany will owe the rest of Europe for the next 100 years. Greece should pay its debts. So should Germany and you can start by cutting a deal that will save Europe.
2
But SD George, yes before Greece had its first bailout much of the debt was indeed to private banks, including Germany.
But rather than do what capitalism demands, where both debtor and lender come crashing down when one borrows irrationally and the other lends irrationally to the point where payment is impossible, the ECB and the IMF (and Merkel's government) orchestrated a bailout (not of Greece mind you, but of German banks in reality) that swapped Greek debts to private investors with new debts to central banks and governments.
This meant, of course, that these private investors escaped their bad loans, and Greece's debt ballooned to 246billion euro, with only 11% of the increase actually going to Greece. This means, as well, that Merkel's decisions imposed losses on the people of Germany in general, as opposed to the private bankers that made bad loans in the first place.
But rather than do what capitalism demands, where both debtor and lender come crashing down when one borrows irrationally and the other lends irrationally to the point where payment is impossible, the ECB and the IMF (and Merkel's government) orchestrated a bailout (not of Greece mind you, but of German banks in reality) that swapped Greek debts to private investors with new debts to central banks and governments.
This meant, of course, that these private investors escaped their bad loans, and Greece's debt ballooned to 246billion euro, with only 11% of the increase actually going to Greece. This means, as well, that Merkel's decisions imposed losses on the people of Germany in general, as opposed to the private bankers that made bad loans in the first place.
2
It is really hard to take seriously the position of the creditors of Greece, after it followed its recommendation for last few years to the point of economical catastrophe. The debt was created by the need of the countries, like Germany, that needed to sell its industrial output, ... who artificially lowered Deutschmark, and then its exchange to Euro, and offered the generous credit to rather corrupt political class to buy all the things the modern European country needs ( including very expensive Olympic games).
At this point, it is quite clear to anyone that by reducing population's income, a solution that has been applied for quite some time, the economical recovery is not the objective... It is absurd to demand acceptance of loans ( in exchange for more austerity, social reforms, and privatization of state assets) designed to be installments payments, and argue that such is a sound policy of European economic unity and Greece is an irresponsible brat for not accepting it.
At this point, it is quite clear to anyone that by reducing population's income, a solution that has been applied for quite some time, the economical recovery is not the objective... It is absurd to demand acceptance of loans ( in exchange for more austerity, social reforms, and privatization of state assets) designed to be installments payments, and argue that such is a sound policy of European economic unity and Greece is an irresponsible brat for not accepting it.
31
Isn't it true that the Greece economy had finally turned the corner late last year, and that the election of Syriza is what turned it right back around? I see Germany as the responsible adult, telling a child that they need to be responsible with their money and learn to create a responsibly solid base, which will ultimately lead to a stronger country years down the road. Its easy to just ask for money, but when you train people that they need to save, they need to be frugal, they will not make the same mistake twice. Interestingly, in countries like Norway, they didn't have a recession. Why? they don't like credit. if they don't have the money in their bank, then they can't afford it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, is it a bad thing that Germany is trying to train Greece to behave more responsibly?
An what would you have done had you known the population were already rich beyond imagination?
How odd that the Greek leaders say they cannot accept the EU proposal unless their citizens vote for it, while giving no weight at all to whether the citizens of Germany or France would vote for bailing the Greeks out again so that Greek hairdressers can receive pensions at age 50.
17
I've heard that "hairdresser" business for so long and so often now that I have to wonder what the heck is going on. Or just why DSM is outraged about that in particular while rich men in great suits demand that nations gut themselves, bleed themselves so they can never recover, and have no way out ever. I don't know how hard life is in Westfield, but doubt that the misery of many in Europe matters much to DSM as long as one hairdresser might retire after 30 years of breathing noxious chemicals. But we've all heard it now, DSM; you can retire it now.
7
It is a good symbol of how out of control the Greek benefits system is. Are Greek hair dressing chemicals any more noxious than Dutch chemicals?
But I agree that "rich men in great suits" are are also worthy of scorn--such as the Greek rich men in great suits who have not paid taxes for years, because the government is so corrupted by the rich and so lax in collecting taxes from them.
But I agree that "rich men in great suits" are are also worthy of scorn--such as the Greek rich men in great suits who have not paid taxes for years, because the government is so corrupted by the rich and so lax in collecting taxes from them.
If Mr. Juncker represents Europe, then by all means expect Greece to vote NO! (Loudly.) European leaders have made every effort to prevent Europe from recovering from the 2008 debacle. They will find that trying to blame it all on Greece will dismantle the EU completely, in the long run and perhaps even sooner. Then they can enjoy being a Putin''s mercy since they will be divided and easy to conquer.
1
Europe had Greece, we have our Puerto Rico. The similarities are many: both entities have long gorged at the trough of subsidies of the richer, far more disciplined rich uncles. Paying taxes is for chumps, pandering to public sector unions is a great way to get re-elected. Pay for it all with borrowings which are snapped up by sap investors with more money than sense.
It is high time that someone called the bluffs of these two profligate political con artists.
It is high time that someone called the bluffs of these two profligate political con artists.
6
Greek politicians, elected by the people, borrowed money to pay for programs that got them voter support.
I sympathize with Greek pensioners in particular, but when one borrows to pay for things one cannot afford, there is always a reckoning.
The creditors need to work with Greece: some repayment is preferable to total loss: harsh austerity programs kill the golden goose. Both sides have responsibilities and should compromise to meet them.
I sympathize with Greek pensioners in particular, but when one borrows to pay for things one cannot afford, there is always a reckoning.
The creditors need to work with Greece: some repayment is preferable to total loss: harsh austerity programs kill the golden goose. Both sides have responsibilities and should compromise to meet them.
1
Prediction: if Grexit happens, which looks increasingly likely:
After an extremely painful period of adjustment, Greece, released from the incompetent and corrupt common monetary system, will begin to thrive. Her tourist industry alone will help enormously, with the lure of a weak drachma, as will cheap exports. Other indebted nations will consider following the Greek lead - watch Portugal and Spain first (eventually) - both are in a strong left wing populist and hate austerity. Watch Italy. I think Europe will eventually say goodbye to the euro. No one really knows if this means the end of Europe, as Merkel claims, or what exactly that would mean, but it does signify the end of the iron grip of the troika, and that creates an opening for good things as well as disastrous ones.
After an extremely painful period of adjustment, Greece, released from the incompetent and corrupt common monetary system, will begin to thrive. Her tourist industry alone will help enormously, with the lure of a weak drachma, as will cheap exports. Other indebted nations will consider following the Greek lead - watch Portugal and Spain first (eventually) - both are in a strong left wing populist and hate austerity. Watch Italy. I think Europe will eventually say goodbye to the euro. No one really knows if this means the end of Europe, as Merkel claims, or what exactly that would mean, but it does signify the end of the iron grip of the troika, and that creates an opening for good things as well as disastrous ones.
9
Has Greece ever been prosperous?
I can't wait to go visit Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain, and leave them some drachmas, lira, whatever and whatever!
The disparity between the economic strengths of the various countries in the Eurozone is too great for a shared currency. They all tried both valiantly and foolishly but it's failing and should be let go. Admitting defeat will be painful but better an abrupt end than this agonizing, endless Greek tragedy.
2
This is good for Greece, plenty of pain but they have a lot of problems that need to be fixed.
1
What's plain to me is that Germany and its allies are trying to overthrow the Greek government and crush the nation's independence, using fear tactics to sway the Greek electorate into taking back their votes that put Syriza in power.
Austerity plainly hasn't worked - unless the purpose was to inflict economic depression on Greece. And sometimes I get the sense that depression was exactly what the puritanical, ego-driven German government had in mind all along. Greece, after all, is such a lazy and foolish and stupid little country.
Well, it's all those inferior countries that have enabled Germany to run huge trade surpluses for years, and who borrowed the money Germans offered to lend them just so they could buy German exports. Germany's economy was built in part on the backs of Greeks and other lower-income countries.
Well, now Germany doesn't like the little monster it created. I hope the Greek people tell Germany and the rest of its northern European moralizers to shove it. The Greeks got along without the rest of Europe, and the euro, for centuries, beginning when northern tribes were still slaughtering each other and wearing horns. I'm sure Greece can survive on its own terms again.
Austerity plainly hasn't worked - unless the purpose was to inflict economic depression on Greece. And sometimes I get the sense that depression was exactly what the puritanical, ego-driven German government had in mind all along. Greece, after all, is such a lazy and foolish and stupid little country.
Well, it's all those inferior countries that have enabled Germany to run huge trade surpluses for years, and who borrowed the money Germans offered to lend them just so they could buy German exports. Germany's economy was built in part on the backs of Greeks and other lower-income countries.
Well, now Germany doesn't like the little monster it created. I hope the Greek people tell Germany and the rest of its northern European moralizers to shove it. The Greeks got along without the rest of Europe, and the euro, for centuries, beginning when northern tribes were still slaughtering each other and wearing horns. I'm sure Greece can survive on its own terms again.
21
Is anyone really surprised? The Global Economy was doomed from the start, and this Greco farce is just the beginning.
5
Let me get this straight, President Juncker feels betrayed? Right! After 5 months of marathonian negotiations, while the GR government has already abandoned a lot of the red lines it had drawn before the elections in order to reach an agreement, the institutions gave the GR government a painfully asphyxiating "take it or leave it" ultimatum. Now, the government decided to take it to the people and hold a national referendum before issuing the legislation and the EC/ECB guys refused to extend the bailout for one week, in order for the referendum to take place and the Greeks to remain unaffected and unencumbered and HE feels betrayed. Wow! And for a moment there I was really worried about those guys! I was worried whether it is moral or not to vote NO, because let's be honest it's like pulling the trigger to a gun which is pointed at them too. Well, after the last few hours and their reactions towards this DEMOCRATIC decision of the GR government, next Sunday I will definitely vote NO!
10
Coin a $5 billion coin. Nobody sees the Euro anyhow, so they should join planet earth and use the gold standard.
Greece needs to default asap. No more needless, endless nightmares of double digit unemployment, grinding poverty, business bankruptcies, etc. to pay blood money to the banksters and crapitalists in northern Europe. The Greek people need an end to their "long, national nightmare". I am calling on the Greek government to do what they were elected to do and salvage the freedom, independence, and sovereignty of the cradle of Western civilization from the rapacious money lenders. "Drive the loan sharks from the Parthenon". Default on all these crushing, unpayable debts, go back to the drachma and seek aid and help from Russia, the Oil states, and China. They are all flush with either money or resources or both and this would give them an economic entree into the Western world. Hopefully this default will begin the unraveling of this banking and financial criminal conspiracy known as the European Union, European Central Bank and euro "fiat" currency. Other nations will hopefully follow suit including Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland and various Slavic nations now being bled white by the "loan shark" Western financial elite. This victimization of the common people must not just be stopped but reversed worldwide and Greece is a good place to start, being one of the centers of Western civilization and culture who led the way from barbarism to civilization. The eyes of Europe and the world are now looking towards Athens to see if they are the worthy inheritors of classical Greece.
6
Key to dealing with the crisis of Greece is developing the means for growing its economy and key to that goal is improving its competitiveness in the proximate global markets. Regrettably, this is not the focus of the proposals to Greece by its lenders in the EU. It is inconceivable that Chancellor Angela Merkel and the political leaders of other EU nations financially burdened by the Greek crisis fail to recognize this reality. Yet there is essentially zero evidence of any analysis by any of them that growth of the economy of Greece has been considered, even peripherally, in their calculations. For five years of the accelerating collapse of the economy of Greece, driven firmly by EU austerity measures, nothing has been said on how these measures will help Greece become economically self-sustaining. The Tsipras government has been both wrong and inept in many regards but, by far the gravest failing, has been the EU’s utter failure to include in any of its proposals since 2009 any measures for growing the economy of Greece as the governing principle.
10
EU officials claim to believe that a deal with Greece is still possible, and that they are willing to resume negotiations after the Greek referendum has been held. It takes two sides to negotiate, though. It is not yet clear whether Greece will be willing to continue negotiations after the referendum.
Historically, even when there has been cause (for example, World War I), nations which have treated other nations with harsh, punitive economic measures have often later had reason to regret doing so. This is not to suggest that Greece today is like Germany in the 1930s, but merely to point out that harsh, punitive economic policies can backfire spectacularly, and that more than economic issues are at stake.
For example, what would happen if Greece decided not simply to leave the Euro, but to leave the European Union altogether, ally itself with Russia, and grant Russia long-term leases to naval bases in the Mediterranean in return for economic support? Would that be a productive outcome for the European Union (or for the United States)? Is the EU quite sure that Greek leaders are not giving active consideration to such possibilities while awaiting the outcome of the referendum?
The IMF and the ECB have the potential to cause enormous diplomatic and military problems for the EU, and for NATO and the US as well, with little potential benefit to show for this beyond imposing ever more draconian austerity policies on the most vulnerable portions of Greek society.
Historically, even when there has been cause (for example, World War I), nations which have treated other nations with harsh, punitive economic measures have often later had reason to regret doing so. This is not to suggest that Greece today is like Germany in the 1930s, but merely to point out that harsh, punitive economic policies can backfire spectacularly, and that more than economic issues are at stake.
For example, what would happen if Greece decided not simply to leave the Euro, but to leave the European Union altogether, ally itself with Russia, and grant Russia long-term leases to naval bases in the Mediterranean in return for economic support? Would that be a productive outcome for the European Union (or for the United States)? Is the EU quite sure that Greek leaders are not giving active consideration to such possibilities while awaiting the outcome of the referendum?
The IMF and the ECB have the potential to cause enormous diplomatic and military problems for the EU, and for NATO and the US as well, with little potential benefit to show for this beyond imposing ever more draconian austerity policies on the most vulnerable portions of Greek society.
45
Russia is broke. It has no real banking system, no money and nothing that can help the Greeks. And they know it, we know it, Europe knows it and the Greeks know it. So it ain't happening.
pshawhan1 is right. Greece can do all that, become Russia's pawn, and then be treated as well as Europe and the United States treat, say, Crimea or Russia's other vassal states. If the Greek pensioners are complaining now that they do not want to give up the right to retire at age 51, and that they deserve to get 3x or more the pensions paid to pensioners in the poorest E.U. countries - well, then, let their Marxist government feed them cake.
1
Tsipras may be thinking along those lines hoping that every world power would come to his rescue with hands full of offers, but offers which will not be such.
The EU is a family. Some of the family members share a house. One of the last to move in was crazy Uncle Gus, despite some clear indications that money burns a hole in his pockets. Your apprehensions were correct, and Gus is now late - again - with his share of the rent. Yes, it's an annoyance, but the household as a whole is secure. Do you kick him to the curb? He is family, remember?
1
When the Greeks have control over the money supply in their country they will have control over the price of labor and they will be able to put people to work. The unemployment rate is 25% in Greece. That's what the unemployment rate was in the US in 1933. When FDR came to power he pledged, first and foremost, to put people to work and to take strict control over the banking and financial sectors. Similarly extreme measures are required now in Greece if the country is ever going to escape this depression, and they cannot do that if Athens does not have control over monetary policy. End of story!
17
These statements from European leaders make it even more clear that Professor Krugman has been right all along. They are just trying to use their power to avoid admitting the austerity policy they forced on the last Greek government has done much more harm than good. Krugman hasn't said this, but I think they are also hope to avoid blame for losing the $300 billion they loaned to Greece when they knew how much debt Greece already had.
I don't absolve Greece of wrongdoing, but their new leaders seem like adults schooling children. The EU leaders' bluff about threats has been called, so they think a tantrum will cover up failure and get their marbles back.
I don't absolve Greece of wrongdoing, but their new leaders seem like adults schooling children. The EU leaders' bluff about threats has been called, so they think a tantrum will cover up failure and get their marbles back.
58
Time to review the movie "Rollover."
1
I really think it's "Ghost" with actors Patrick Swayze, Tony Goldwyn and Demi Moore.
There are multiple Carl Bruner characters in every country, probably at every bank and stock exchange.
There are multiple Carl Bruner characters in every country, probably at every bank and stock exchange.
Far too little attention has been paid to the darkest cloud on the horizon, the rise of right-wing extremism in Europe. As a result of austerity measures forced on Greek workers, such as reducing the standard minimum wage of $750 by 22 percent, people are increasingly, and quite rightly, bitter and angry. Punishing the working class and ignoring its 25 percent unemployment rate energizes destructive political forces in Greece such as the Golden Dawn party, which channels working class rage into rage against the "other", such as minority citizens and immigrants. This is a particularly bad time for anti-immigrant sentiment to take hold. It is worrisome to watch European leaders in this debt crisis fueling such nationalist and racist extremism.
54
I add to this: Either the "mainstream" political parties and "leftist" regimes stop this outrageous and endless invasion of the European homeland "cold" with blockades of Libya, swift deportation of illegal aliens, and no shelter for illegal immigrants or the "Far Right" will take power in many European countries and do the job they lack the brains and backbone to do. We will see shortly what happens. If the globalists have any sense they will order their political puppets and henchmen to do this before their criminal conspiracy comes undone. We'll see.
The worthless globalist puppets in power are fueling all this so called "racism" and "xenophobia" by not adopting a "zero tolerance" policy towards any and all illegal immigrants and repatriating them to their homelands or in the case of the handful of genuine refugees from war not sending them to the oil rich Gulf states and Saudi Arabia which are similar culturally, ethnically and religiously. To the contrary they have deliberately violated international agreements and national laws by not blockading the coast of Africa and stopping these migrants at the point of departure and created ever more illegals wanting to invade Europe.The longer these worthless thugs and henchmen of the One World Order allow the continued invasion of Europe by these interlopers the more the average European is turning to what the corporatist media term the "Far Right" as the only viable vehicle to try and prevent Europe from being overrun with "proles". The corrupt and spineless EU "leaders" ignore the righteous wrath and genuine fear of their subjects at their own peril and the peril of their bankster and crapitalist masters. If what the leftists refer to as the "far right" come to power in many "front line" European countries the globalists will only have themselves to blame because they were traitors and did not uphold the constitutions and laws of their native lands and follow the people's wishes and send these interlopers back from whence they illegally invaded the European homelands.
History repeats itself. Did that happen before not too long ago in a country called Germany? And did Germans repay all these loans and for all other destruction they caused in TWO World Wars? Of course not and it was right NOT to force them to do so.
Wow! No provision in European treaties for a nation to leave the monetary union. No plan B! Shortages of food and gas coming, along with little medicine in hospitals. Salaries will be paid in a much weaker currency if at all. Retirees take a hit. Sounds like Russia, doesn't it? Welcome to Socialism.
2
Last week the Troika insisted that Greece further cut pension benefits and not raise taxes, If Syriza had agreed to that, they would have been discredited by their own electorate. One wonders if that wasn't the real goal of Europe's leaders- to send a message to the Spanish who vote in November and can express their opinion of austerity by giving power to Podemos. Now they're shocked and petrified that the Greeks will vote on their own destiny and say they are willing to compromise. But in the end, the neo-liberals running Europe have too much to lose by giving the Greeks a break-- especially the 'socialists' who have acquiesced in the suffering of their traditional supporters since the economic crisis began in 2007
6
It's unfortunate that the European Union will dissolve simply because European oligarchs refuse to pay higher taxes. This type of sickness that has occurred in the U.S. has apparently spread overseas.
Sad to say, but even the rich are so blind to know that they won't have a pot to urinate in if the earth is burning up and the people are in revolt. Austerity worked in this country, meaning it worked to keep America in a prolonged depression after they first tried it in 1937. Will we ever learn? If history is a guide, the quick answer is 'no'.
Sad to say, but even the rich are so blind to know that they won't have a pot to urinate in if the earth is burning up and the people are in revolt. Austerity worked in this country, meaning it worked to keep America in a prolonged depression after they first tried it in 1937. Will we ever learn? If history is a guide, the quick answer is 'no'.
12
Dissolve, pfft. Greece will leave, a few others may get people centric governments and leave, but Germany and France will be better off even if they are the only ones with a joint currency (eh, kemosabe Holland?)
When Merkel and Juncker say "compromise", it means " do what we tell you" .
Tsipras recognizes that the creditor nations have a double standard and is calling it.
The EU leaders are not happy. Unclear why. It's only Greek pensioners who'll have to eke out a misery on $250 a month.
Tsipras recognizes that the creditor nations have a double standard and is calling it.
The EU leaders are not happy. Unclear why. It's only Greek pensioners who'll have to eke out a misery on $250 a month.
22
"“Europe cannot give permanent financial aid with no conditions,” he said."
But, they aren't asking for that. They are asking for a specific amount of aid with different conditions than what you want.
But, they aren't asking for that. They are asking for a specific amount of aid with different conditions than what you want.
8
I'm afraid today's slump in the markets has cost much much more than the money expected from Greece. Ideology has overcome economics in this instance, but pointing the finger at Ms. Merkel is not fair: the worst seem to be the visionless technocrats of the Eurogroup, not mentioning the IMF
7
German Chancellor Angela Merkel rules the roost, if mostly behind-the-scenes, in the Greek bail-out negotiations. She wishes to keep Greece in the Euro, as noted in her oft-repeated comment: “If the euro fails, Europe fails.” This means, she said, that “we have principles” that reflect “the trust we have in each other,” but also that “we must always seek compromise.”
Right now, the good old-fashioned horse-trading is taking place, with each side trying to weaken the other's position. But, in the end, a Grexit would set a precedent, which other countries may wish, at least at some point, to follow. The Eurozone cannot accept that.
The real question is: when will the political haggling end, and the true economic realities rise to the fore?
http://thetruthoncommonsense.com
Right now, the good old-fashioned horse-trading is taking place, with each side trying to weaken the other's position. But, in the end, a Grexit would set a precedent, which other countries may wish, at least at some point, to follow. The Eurozone cannot accept that.
The real question is: when will the political haggling end, and the true economic realities rise to the fore?
http://thetruthoncommonsense.com
10
Perhaps you've discovered the revived form of German hegemony over Europe.
Austerity is precisely the opposite of policies required to revitalize a depressed economy. But it is exactly what a predatory financial cabal uses to squeeze the lifeblood out of victims it manages to snare with its promises of money now, pay later.
American homeowners suckered with teasers to purchase balloon mortgages that cost them their homes; college students roped into lifelong indebtedness with student loans issued by financial institutions that never in a million years would pay their fair share of taxes to fund free public education; third world countries driven to financial ruin by the tried-and-true strategy being employed in Greece: transnational PayDay loans on which interest payments are only made possible by rolling them over in perpetuity and loaning just enough to pay that interest every time another tranche is issued.
Sharpies in expensive suits take three-martini lunches at the expense of millions of people ensnared in their delightful little game and suffering to fund their luxuries for them. Debt is such a wonderful product. The gift that keeps on giving. You can even blame your victims by waging a moralistic finger at them: "You never should have borrowed the money in the first place!"
What a rotten, selfish, greedy, antisocial game.
American homeowners suckered with teasers to purchase balloon mortgages that cost them their homes; college students roped into lifelong indebtedness with student loans issued by financial institutions that never in a million years would pay their fair share of taxes to fund free public education; third world countries driven to financial ruin by the tried-and-true strategy being employed in Greece: transnational PayDay loans on which interest payments are only made possible by rolling them over in perpetuity and loaning just enough to pay that interest every time another tranche is issued.
Sharpies in expensive suits take three-martini lunches at the expense of millions of people ensnared in their delightful little game and suffering to fund their luxuries for them. Debt is such a wonderful product. The gift that keeps on giving. You can even blame your victims by waging a moralistic finger at them: "You never should have borrowed the money in the first place!"
What a rotten, selfish, greedy, antisocial game.
53
Best comment. Vicious and unconscionable - we're all sweating under the same plutocratic thumb. That power over everyone's every day life is so deeply entrenched that taking it down would/will be enormously costly. Don't expect to see that happen in my lifetime. Greece - vote NO. That's the sort of costly precedent that might turn history around everywhere.
5
Very well put. Thank you, Bill.
4
It's always the lenders fault, never the borrowers. If the norm for lenders is to never be repaid and to be demonized, why lend at all? There are many other opportunities for investors. Perhaps all these indebted victims would be better off on their own.
Watch carefully. We are all Greeks.
39
Exactly.
3
Are we that careless and gullible? Greece does not have the money to pay today or at the end of the year. Kicking the can down the road is only for political reasons. Economically nothing will change.
The Europeans are looking for something to stem the fallout, something they themselves created. The best for the Eurozone is for Greece to quietly exit from the group. The fallout will be less damaging for all if the Europeans are willing to make a simple but hard choice.
That Greece will exit, should not be seen as a failure on the part of the Group. That is exactly what they are making this crisis to be.
The Europeans are looking for something to stem the fallout, something they themselves created. The best for the Eurozone is for Greece to quietly exit from the group. The fallout will be less damaging for all if the Europeans are willing to make a simple but hard choice.
That Greece will exit, should not be seen as a failure on the part of the Group. That is exactly what they are making this crisis to be.
4
The Capitalist West lent billions of Dollars, for Greece to realize its Olympic Games, knowing that it was a risk, as Greece is one of the poorest country in EU.
Now they demand their money back? Seems unrealistic.
If Greece has no more money to pay its obligations, then someone should have transferred it to foreign banks. Money cannot evaporate like smoke.
Billions of Dollars were driven by European and American money-men and invested in their banks.
Now they demand their money back? Seems unrealistic.
If Greece has no more money to pay its obligations, then someone should have transferred it to foreign banks. Money cannot evaporate like smoke.
Billions of Dollars were driven by European and American money-men and invested in their banks.
3
Money can evaporate. Recall the Great Depression where stock prices plummeted between 1930 and 1932. That's when people jumped out of high-rise buildings, not 1929-1930.
1
But they did the contrary, they transferred the debt from the banks to the European people...
When the current awards run out, IOC should establish Athens as the permanent home of the Summer Olympics.
Just as the NFL should return the Super Bowl to New Orleans and keep it there.
There. Problems solved.
Now where do we park the World Cup?
Just as the NFL should return the Super Bowl to New Orleans and keep it there.
There. Problems solved.
Now where do we park the World Cup?
At least Merkel gets that berating/telling the Greek people what to vote in their own referendum proooobably won't help. The rich, angry technocrats doing the berating? Er, not so much.
3
I really don't understand what the big deal is about keeping Greece in the Eurozone...their economy only makes up 2%. They can still stay in the EU along with 9 other countries who don't trade the euro dollar.
If the EZ gives in to Greece, it set a precedence for others like Italy and Spain, etc., to not have to pay their dues.
If the EZ gives in to Greece, it set a precedence for others like Italy and Spain, etc., to not have to pay their dues.
5
"If the EZ gives in to Greece..."
Exactly...all those countries should be conquered, not treated like they were part of an equal union.
Exactly...all those countries should be conquered, not treated like they were part of an equal union.
4
As if you are the main lender like, you are talking.
"it set a precedence for others like Italy and Spain, etc., to not have to pay their dues."
Who you are? Schauble's henchman.
"it set a precedence for others like Italy and Spain, etc., to not have to pay their dues."
Who you are? Schauble's henchman.
1
1, the other EZ members cannot oust Greece from the EMU, such are the laws within the EU and Greece would have to leave on its own. That is not going to happen at this point.
2, if the EZ members decide to illegally oust Greece, what will that say about solidarity and credibility of the EZ in general? What will make of that the Spaniards, or Portuguese or Italians? What will make of that the rest of the world of the credibility and strength of the EU and EZ?
3, Germany is well aware that they did not bail out Greece, but they bailed out the European banking system, without asking for permission from their own people. What do you think will happen when this becomes clear to the Europeans? Do you believe they will no revolt? Do you believe they will not feel duped?
4, finally, what do you think will happen to the Euro if it is only back by Germany's economy? SKyrocket against the US dollar.
2, if the EZ members decide to illegally oust Greece, what will that say about solidarity and credibility of the EZ in general? What will make of that the Spaniards, or Portuguese or Italians? What will make of that the rest of the world of the credibility and strength of the EU and EZ?
3, Germany is well aware that they did not bail out Greece, but they bailed out the European banking system, without asking for permission from their own people. What do you think will happen when this becomes clear to the Europeans? Do you believe they will no revolt? Do you believe they will not feel duped?
4, finally, what do you think will happen to the Euro if it is only back by Germany's economy? SKyrocket against the US dollar.
1
Also, Greece government needs to continually maintain and manage clean banking systems and never fall into this trap in the future. As well as all countries.
1
As of today, If Greece leaves Eurozone, Greece some part of population will leave Greece permanently too. so Meanwhile EU incompetent bureaucrats couldn't even figure out how to deal with Mediterranean immigrants, now in their hand there is a legitimate prospective millions immigrant Greek people.
EU is showing it's inner workings and that say only one thing :INCOMPETENT.
EU is showing it's inner workings and that say only one thing :INCOMPETENT.
6
Heather, a civil war would add MORE problems! Who wants more problems?
I'm surprised no one has in-depth investigated a population of 11M people has over 350B euro debt in its euro lifespan. I believe savvier crooks have left them with their debts also.
If Cyprus was offshore Asset banking, Greece appears to be offshore Debt banking. Not fair for 11M people to live like they abused the EMU by the decisions of a few. What is the history of Greek financials? Were they solvent before entering the Euro?
What if crooks got Greece into the Euro, performed numerous financial crimes, used Greece, robbed Greece, deposited the money into Cyprus and crooked banks of Greece and Cyprus. In recent years Europe has confiscated illegal money and closed illegal banks. Greek bankers and businessmen look crooked also. So they play the part, while others ran off with over 300B euros. If you were to balance the funds, where did the 350B euros go? Each Greek should be a billionaire on the average. Only the average citizen suffers. THIS is a recurring pattern.
I'm surprised no one has in-depth investigated a population of 11M people has over 350B euro debt in its euro lifespan. I believe savvier crooks have left them with their debts also.
If Cyprus was offshore Asset banking, Greece appears to be offshore Debt banking. Not fair for 11M people to live like they abused the EMU by the decisions of a few. What is the history of Greek financials? Were they solvent before entering the Euro?
What if crooks got Greece into the Euro, performed numerous financial crimes, used Greece, robbed Greece, deposited the money into Cyprus and crooked banks of Greece and Cyprus. In recent years Europe has confiscated illegal money and closed illegal banks. Greek bankers and businessmen look crooked also. So they play the part, while others ran off with over 300B euros. If you were to balance the funds, where did the 350B euros go? Each Greek should be a billionaire on the average. Only the average citizen suffers. THIS is a recurring pattern.
7
Greek banks did not 'overlend'. The excessive lending to the Greek government was by non-Greek banks (perhaps the Greek banks knew better?).
The Greek government used the money to double state worker's salaries over less than ten years and greatly expand the headcount. Some money was left over for benefits to the public.
The Greek people, not surprisingly, apparently see their State as hopelessly corrupt and avoid funding it if at all possible. Now, other Europeans have come to the same conclusion.
So the question was, and remains, what will the Greek people do about their State? That question does not go away regardless of whether they stick with the Euro or devalue with the Drachma. Either way the State cannot fund itself and has run our of people willing to plug the gap, whether Greek or non-Greek.
The Greek government used the money to double state worker's salaries over less than ten years and greatly expand the headcount. Some money was left over for benefits to the public.
The Greek people, not surprisingly, apparently see their State as hopelessly corrupt and avoid funding it if at all possible. Now, other Europeans have come to the same conclusion.
So the question was, and remains, what will the Greek people do about their State? That question does not go away regardless of whether they stick with the Euro or devalue with the Drachma. Either way the State cannot fund itself and has run our of people willing to plug the gap, whether Greek or non-Greek.
1
Much of Spain's big debt was acquired from German banks.
Spanish construction companies built entire cities that were never finished and which will never be occupied, as well as airports at which no airplane has ever landed.
NONE of this was debt acquired by the Spanish government.
Rather in the Spanish federal system the national government has little power over what goes on in the autonomous regions (states).
And although corruption runs rampant all over Spain, Spain's ruling Popular Party is the most corrupt government of all of Spanish history, going back to 1492 A.D. when Spain was founded.
Spanish construction companies built entire cities that were never finished and which will never be occupied, as well as airports at which no airplane has ever landed.
NONE of this was debt acquired by the Spanish government.
Rather in the Spanish federal system the national government has little power over what goes on in the autonomous regions (states).
And although corruption runs rampant all over Spain, Spain's ruling Popular Party is the most corrupt government of all of Spanish history, going back to 1492 A.D. when Spain was founded.
If Europe confiscated illegal money that was originally stolen money from the Greek Treasury, then the loans have been wasting their time and Greece would be entitled to debt relief of at least 50% plus interest of all funds that were stolen. Independent teams would have to investigate. Unfortunately how criminals have been working is to plant ringers in each scammable target location: two points A and B criminal people gladly perform the scam together. So if ringers were planted inside the Greek government years ago (people believe Greek government is corrupt--the government could have at least been policing this), this would be something to avoid in the future. Also so much has happened that it is all mixed up and confusing (probably intentional by the scammers), it is difficult but not impossible to identify if Greece has been severely robbed then forced to carry massive loans that is damaging the people and the country of Greece. They would have to gather evidence and present it in Criminal Court.
Years ago while we were one of Argentina's largest frozen fruit exporters, we assembled a huge processing line to export frozen peaches to the US food industry, since prices were convenient and our quality outstanding. Following season when everything was all set, we couldn't even start, as the competence from Greece selling at dumping prices, put an end to all our dreams . Finding out then, it turned that the European Commision subsidies to Greece were so big that they disrupted the market . When you start manipulating Capitalism so much , nothing good happens.
8
If Greece has no more money to pay its obligations, then someone should have transfered it to foreign banks. Money can not evaporate like water.
Billions of Dollars were driven by European and American Wall Street money-men and invested in their banks.
Billions of Dollars were driven by European and American Wall Street money-men and invested in their banks.
4
Eh? The obligations were owned by foreign banks and now are owned by other EU states (in other words, taxpayers).
Loans are not gifts you know.
Loans are not gifts you know.
2
I truly believe multiple megacrimes have occurred in the last 15 years. If someone were to balance the books where did the money losses come from and where are the profits? Who has the profits? What are they doing with the profits?
Maybe investigating smaller crimes is easier for law enforcement these days. Maybe EU investigates Ferguson, MO and the U.S. investigates FIFA.
They need to apply the Sherman Anti-Trust Act on conglomerate banks and corporations. They look like the biggest consumers of money-money-money.
Hopefully in the 21st century, the general population is not headed toward 100% corruption.
Maybe investigating smaller crimes is easier for law enforcement these days. Maybe EU investigates Ferguson, MO and the U.S. investigates FIFA.
They need to apply the Sherman Anti-Trust Act on conglomerate banks and corporations. They look like the biggest consumers of money-money-money.
Hopefully in the 21st century, the general population is not headed toward 100% corruption.
No body in the world can say that 500 billion USD credit is given with under normal banking and financial procedures to 10,815.000 population country.
That is not right.
EU cannot wash its hands, this is entirely Greek's problem, EU and it's lenders are in this game and they did this to Greece knowingly and intentionally and now they are trying to capitulate a nation in pretext of World War one time Europe mentality.
This is a very nasty game and power play, nothing else.
German's bankers and Greek politicians collaborative work nothing else.
P.S: some credit in this scheme also goes to Goldman Sachs.
That is not right.
EU cannot wash its hands, this is entirely Greek's problem, EU and it's lenders are in this game and they did this to Greece knowingly and intentionally and now they are trying to capitulate a nation in pretext of World War one time Europe mentality.
This is a very nasty game and power play, nothing else.
German's bankers and Greek politicians collaborative work nothing else.
P.S: some credit in this scheme also goes to Goldman Sachs.
8
Greece is a text book case for EU's mistakes. It is not that Greece deceived them, how much they were lenient and looking other side. Greece is not a newcomer, As of today its foundations should be the same as all members same age. Spain, Ireland etc.
Instead, EU never paid attention to Greece, never audited, never tested. It has only one thing done in Greece, it is the land of the fraudulent financial practices, such as
1- Half trillion USD credit a nation even not 20 million population. In any financial transaction this would fall in the zone of predatory lending and scheming.
2- How is that money utilized, where is the economy, what has been done to equalization of EU. apparently there is nothing done or done in very fraudulent way.
I believe the time of beating Greece over, Greece has seen the end.
Greece story shattered the trust and confidence towards the EU. This is not a union which takes care of their own business, letting banks and creditors play with the junior members politicians financial games and send the bill to main street people.
It happened in USA and worse happened in EU.
I was once also in allure of EU but Greece story open my eyes, Europe in its complacency very clearly signaling that 2 World war is not enough , they can do more.
We supposed that last 40 years there is a very strenuous effort spent for maturating the idea of unified Europe, instead we found our selves exactly the same of pre WWI.
Instead, EU never paid attention to Greece, never audited, never tested. It has only one thing done in Greece, it is the land of the fraudulent financial practices, such as
1- Half trillion USD credit a nation even not 20 million population. In any financial transaction this would fall in the zone of predatory lending and scheming.
2- How is that money utilized, where is the economy, what has been done to equalization of EU. apparently there is nothing done or done in very fraudulent way.
I believe the time of beating Greece over, Greece has seen the end.
Greece story shattered the trust and confidence towards the EU. This is not a union which takes care of their own business, letting banks and creditors play with the junior members politicians financial games and send the bill to main street people.
It happened in USA and worse happened in EU.
I was once also in allure of EU but Greece story open my eyes, Europe in its complacency very clearly signaling that 2 World war is not enough , they can do more.
We supposed that last 40 years there is a very strenuous effort spent for maturating the idea of unified Europe, instead we found our selves exactly the same of pre WWI.
So what you are saying is that the fact that the Greek state is corrupt is the fault of other Europeans?
That some kind of supranational agency should supervise their every move since they cannot be trusted or display childish incompetence?
But wait, that is the IMF! But the IMF is at fault since it should have taken over Greece before there was a crisis?
That some kind of supranational agency should supervise their every move since they cannot be trusted or display childish incompetence?
But wait, that is the IMF! But the IMF is at fault since it should have taken over Greece before there was a crisis?
1
The only difference between the disgraced IMF lead Dominique Strauss-Kahn and the current IMF head Christine Lagarde is that one of them chases skirts and the other wears a skirt.
Keith NJ, exactly, EU must have been auditing Greece, like others.
Tsipras responded to their 'take it or else' ultimatum with a referendum; what's wrong with it? What are the EU leaders afraid off? I would said that after 5 years of austerity that only shrunk their economy, Greek people have a good reason to say no more.
They will go into a very bad couple of years but even that is better than eternal austerity with no economic growth. After the economy stabilizes, they will start growing and will do better. Just look what happened in Argentina.
They will go into a very bad couple of years but even that is better than eternal austerity with no economic growth. After the economy stabilizes, they will start growing and will do better. Just look what happened in Argentina.
81
Well if the past is any guide, the referendum will produce a "yes" vote forcing negotiations to resume. The Greek populace is of two minds: on the one hand they loathe the austerity programs; but, on the other, they love the Euro. Well, if the Greeks wants the Euro so badly, then they need to suck it up and put their fiscal house in order. Who can blame the rest of Europe for Greek farce fatigue?
2
"What are the EU leaders afraid off?"
1. That they might catch some of the blame they deserve instead of convincing everyone it's all Syriza's fault.
2. That anything good happening for Greece at this point might encourage confrontational, anti-troika political parties in other countries.
1. That they might catch some of the blame they deserve instead of convincing everyone it's all Syriza's fault.
2. That anything good happening for Greece at this point might encourage confrontational, anti-troika political parties in other countries.
4
SO basic the greek created a mess by lying in the first place to get into the EU
and have done nothing to help themselves no.
Just kick them out of the EU and be done with it
and have done nothing to help themselves no.
Just kick them out of the EU and be done with it
The Greeks need to call it a day and reject the Trioka's blackmail.
28
The Greeks need to exit the euro, align themselves economically with Russia, and lead NATO but remain neutral. Let the rest of Europe worry about Ukraine, ISIS and the flood of immigrants into southern Europe via Spain and Italy.
6
Welcome to Socialism, with its attendant shortages of food, gas, medicine and payments to retirees. Yeah, Russia is a fine example.
Tsipras just called Merkel's bluff. By closing the Greek banks and stock exchange, Tsipras is signaling that he is willing to take great risk to get a deal that he and his voters can live with. Merkel, on the other hand, maybe was assuming that the Greeks would never risk an EU membership and accept further cuts.
Caveat to Merkel: the Chinese have a old saying: "Those wear shoes are better off not stepping on the barefooted ones." Watch out, Ms. Merkel, the Greeks may have been pushed to a point that they have nothing to lose.
Caveat to Merkel: the Chinese have a old saying: "Those wear shoes are better off not stepping on the barefooted ones." Watch out, Ms. Merkel, the Greeks may have been pushed to a point that they have nothing to lose.
24
Millions of us hope so.
Greece can't pay all its debts and the "deal" they are talking about is for a short term extension until around the end of the year. But by all accounts any proposal beyond that is not going to be agreeable. This "negotiation" is a farce... if the great thing that is being decided is whether Greece defaults now or at Christmas.
Greek citizens should be able to transfer their accounts to other EU banks and the government can pay as it can and issue IOUs in the meantime.
Greek citizens should be able to transfer their accounts to other EU banks and the government can pay as it can and issue IOUs in the meantime.
3
There is no money in the Greek banks to support transfers of accounts to other EU banks.
Suck it up Greece. Iceland did it. Don't expect another bailout. Europe should not have to pay for the tab if you simply ignore the terms you negotiated. You can't keep coming back asking for more time.
18
Iceland bankruptcy is not same as Greece.
Iceland at the dawn of 2008 crisis holding 50 billion Euro debt, it is huge for Iceland population for 330,000. But one safe fail mechanism, Iceland is a sovereign currency, and total debt is large for Iceland but world economy is a drop.
Greece , is a core Eurozone country is not main country but core country, Currency union makes almost impossible to declare bankruptcy however it is going that direction.
So Iceland did it, argentine did it, but Greece cannot do it. Because they do not have sovereign currency. It must be a mutual declaration, EU and Greece.
And that say s a lot.
Iceland at the dawn of 2008 crisis holding 50 billion Euro debt, it is huge for Iceland population for 330,000. But one safe fail mechanism, Iceland is a sovereign currency, and total debt is large for Iceland but world economy is a drop.
Greece , is a core Eurozone country is not main country but core country, Currency union makes almost impossible to declare bankruptcy however it is going that direction.
So Iceland did it, argentine did it, but Greece cannot do it. Because they do not have sovereign currency. It must be a mutual declaration, EU and Greece.
And that say s a lot.
7
Iceland didn't do it. They let their banks fail, rather than borrow money to rescue foreign bankers as Greece did.
2
Iceland did it because they let the banking system collapse. The Greek bailout was really a bailout of the European banks, where the other European states bought the Greek bonds owned by the European banks and then the IMF gave more money to the Greek government so that the Greek government could bailout the Greek banks. From the money that the Greek government received as bailout none of it went to the Greek people. In April 2012 35 billion Euros were given to the Greek banks, then in October 2012 another 50 billion, that is already 85 billion out of the total 300 billion Greece ows...
2
European bankers can't stand the idea of a democratic vote on economic problems that impact millions of people. Neo-liberalism is a zombie economic policy, alive long after it should be dead. How much more suffering must the Greek people endure before anti-austerity policies are accepted as the only way out of the crisis?
30
these anti-austerity policies have an impact on other democracies, and if other democracies, like britain, hold an referendum on not funding greece anymore, would you accept this ?
2
Bankers are about as democratic as the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party, which explains why our bankers have sold us out to the Chinese.
18
Of course, that is democracy. Isn't that what the UK intends to do in 2016? But just like UK is given the courtesy to perform a referendum, the same courtesy should be given to the Greek people. Democracy is not measured by the nationality. If you're British, or German you're allowed to it, but not if you're Greek...
You should also take into account that the British will decide to remain in the EU or not, which doesn't affect them that much. The Greeks on the other hand, are not choosing with this referendum to stay or leave in the EZ, they're choosing if they want to accept the suffocating measures the EZ leaders propose. If the Greeks are suffocated further, where will they find the money to pay back the loans? And if they can't pay back after the austerity measures, what should happen then? Should Germany confiscate the whole country????
You should also take into account that the British will decide to remain in the EU or not, which doesn't affect them that much. The Greeks on the other hand, are not choosing with this referendum to stay or leave in the EZ, they're choosing if they want to accept the suffocating measures the EZ leaders propose. If the Greeks are suffocated further, where will they find the money to pay back the loans? And if they can't pay back after the austerity measures, what should happen then? Should Germany confiscate the whole country????
2
The elephant in the room is the possibility of civil war in Greece. We could see something similar to what happened in the Ukraine, with the country fracturing over whether to stay with Europe or not.
That is always a danger when a nation's economy collapses. The collapse sets off a chain of events where old animosities are revived and national unity fractures.
We have been seeing a tsunami of national collapse, starting in the Middle East and now moving toward Europe. In Greece, there are extremist groups of all stripes that could take advantage of social and economic chaos. And as we have seen in the Middle East, the genie of destruction is virtually impossible to put back into the bottle once it breaks out.
EU nations have to keep in mind that allowing Greece to drown may mean that the drowning nation may reach out, like a person cast into the sea, and pull other nations off the life raft that is the EU.
So it's not only financial solvency and responsibility that is at stake; it is civil order. I imagine that ISIS would be willing to step into any vacuum created if other EU nations step away...
That is always a danger when a nation's economy collapses. The collapse sets off a chain of events where old animosities are revived and national unity fractures.
We have been seeing a tsunami of national collapse, starting in the Middle East and now moving toward Europe. In Greece, there are extremist groups of all stripes that could take advantage of social and economic chaos. And as we have seen in the Middle East, the genie of destruction is virtually impossible to put back into the bottle once it breaks out.
EU nations have to keep in mind that allowing Greece to drown may mean that the drowning nation may reach out, like a person cast into the sea, and pull other nations off the life raft that is the EU.
So it's not only financial solvency and responsibility that is at stake; it is civil order. I imagine that ISIS would be willing to step into any vacuum created if other EU nations step away...
18
In following a politically expedient course that utterly ruins a country considered "expendable," the European Community sowed the wind. And as you suggest, it may reap the whirlwind.
Europe's leaders are apparently no wiser or better than they were in 1919, when they imposed the same sort of austerity on -- Germany. Whose leaders also seem curiously blank on the matter.
Europe's leaders are apparently no wiser or better than they were in 1919, when they imposed the same sort of austerity on -- Germany. Whose leaders also seem curiously blank on the matter.
16
I imagine that ISIS would be willing to step into any vacuum created if other EU nations step away...? Wrong!
Greece is not Islamic. It is Orthodox State.
Greece is not Islamic. It is Orthodox State.
4
Greece defends the border between the EU and the Islamic world, which includes ISIS.
Driving Greece out of Europe is just plain stupid.
But the invasion of Iraq was also just plain stupid.
Driving Greece out of Europe is just plain stupid.
But the invasion of Iraq was also just plain stupid.
5
It seems that Krugman, in his op-ed today, must be right: it's not about analysis but about power. Analysis of the problem would yield a solution that, while not ideal, minimizes losses for all parties involved -- or, equivalently, maximizes the ultimate payout to creditors over time. That alternative dictates setting up a situation facilitating the eventual regrowth of the Greek economy, to the point where it can (a) provide for its own citizens' well-being, and (b) repay as much as possible of its outside debts. Instead, Merkel and company, ostensibly representing the interests of their citizens, lay down terms that, as Krugman says, lead to endless Greek austerity and a depression of unforeseeable duration, which also harms the interests of the very citizens Merkel is presuming to protect. And all for what? To assert the moral upper hand? It's counterproductive to the point of craziness; and Merkel, as a physicist and problem-solver, used to dealing with quantitative data, should know better: perhaps better than some of her economic advisers.
79
Yes, the point IS power. Even today, as the market slowly tanks, there is a sense of the whole thing being rigged. To think how little is owed by Greece for the payment due tomorrow, is one measurement of the extremes that the neoliberals will go to, to maintain their power.
8
She is German
Greece will never be able to pay it's debt with an unemployment rate of 25%. Young Greeks are leaving in droves to find opportunity elsewhere. While it's true that Greek still needs to implement some economic reforms, like cutting down on tax evasion and cutting back on pensions, it's also clear that purpose of austerity is punishment without regard to viability.
Austerity will be the end of the Greek Economy, so why not exit?
If the Europeans are serious about keeping Greece (and Spain, and Portugal) in the EU, they need to temper Austerity with a serious plan to raise employment and give the younger generation a reason to stay in their home country.
Austerity will be the end of the Greek Economy, so why not exit?
If the Europeans are serious about keeping Greece (and Spain, and Portugal) in the EU, they need to temper Austerity with a serious plan to raise employment and give the younger generation a reason to stay in their home country.
138
Indeed - Greece has suffered through a full-on depression for 5 years, and all the Troika said in response was "more of the same." To my mind, the whole purpose of this exercise is to force massive social safety net cuts and privatization not only upon Greece, but upon all of Europe - including Germany.
This is not merely a European perspective - look at the way pensioners were treated in Detroit, and how the Governor of Illinois proposes to treat Chicago city workers' pensions: bankruptcy, and then massive pension cuts. The thory seems to be that competing with Third World workers requires the 99% to accept Third World salaries and conditions... how else can the 0.1% keep their multi-billion dollar lifestyles?
This is not merely a European perspective - look at the way pensioners were treated in Detroit, and how the Governor of Illinois proposes to treat Chicago city workers' pensions: bankruptcy, and then massive pension cuts. The thory seems to be that competing with Third World workers requires the 99% to accept Third World salaries and conditions... how else can the 0.1% keep their multi-billion dollar lifestyles?
63
Trying to compare a city like Detroit's profligacy with that of a country like Greece shows a basic lack economics understanding. One might as well compare the economics of a city to that of an individual. Politically the problems may be similar, but the economic solutions are not.
1
Your last question is the key to all major economic movements today, including the Pacific trade pact that Obama wants to push through. The American workers have lost in all these free trade agreements since Bill Clinton started it all.
German Finance Minister Sigmar Gabriel said the vote would be "yes or no to the euro;4
I wonder where you get your news. The State Dept.?
Grexit would be the best thing for Greece since they joined.
I wonder where you get your news. The State Dept.?
Grexit would be the best thing for Greece since they joined.
25
Greece has been hampered by a variety of issues.
First, Greece needs to fix its own house but this has to be done by the Greeks themselves. Mr. Juncker needs to stop interfering in INTERNAL Greek affairs. He has NO right to suggest to Greek people how to vote; he has essentially failed in his position and he needs to resign rather than shift the blame in his colossal failure to act.
Second, the current economic measures are brain dead ad have destroyed an entire country, while the ones who profit form all this, mostly Germany, sit on the side passing lesson n moral hazard. Enough lessons from Germany. They have managed to destroy Europe for the third time, after they castrated France and Italy.
First, Greece needs to fix its own house but this has to be done by the Greeks themselves. Mr. Juncker needs to stop interfering in INTERNAL Greek affairs. He has NO right to suggest to Greek people how to vote; he has essentially failed in his position and he needs to resign rather than shift the blame in his colossal failure to act.
Second, the current economic measures are brain dead ad have destroyed an entire country, while the ones who profit form all this, mostly Germany, sit on the side passing lesson n moral hazard. Enough lessons from Germany. They have managed to destroy Europe for the third time, after they castrated France and Italy.
12
I agree. The biggest economy in Greece has been and and will forever be tourism and agriculture. Both of these will benefit when the Euro straight jacket has been lifted
2
Welcome to Socialism.
2