Yeah that will change everything! Oh yeah---good move--- We will all get along better and this will fix everything after this eh? Good luck- keep looking to blame something else for your problems like this country does with everything else. Take it down who cares----? It will just prove it didn't mean anything one way or the other anyway and you'll have to look for the next thing to blame for whatever your issues are- oh yeah after they take it down how bout getting jobs and paying your taxes....? Thanks to Lincoln you have no 40 acres and a mule and you have to pay taxes--- isn't life ironic? Put your energy to helping the man next to you and and his family as well as yours and forget all your anger as well-- can you do that? Well can you? Or will there be another campaign we have to suffer through and ignore as part of our history---or lost history? Thanks for all of your consideration- we love you too! Thanks for considering the honest people who don't hate but want to have a meaningful past whether viewed as good or bad.
Boycott until all rebel flags and monuments are removed.
1
Call me cynical, but I think that the eagerness of so many Republican politicians to distance themselves from Confederate imagery is all about trying to ingratiate themselves with African-American voters prior to next year's election.
2
Thanks you! Finally some hopeful signs of progress; God bless!
1
Consider the report on lynching by the Equal Justice Initiative http://www.eji.org/lynchinginamerica The report describes occasions when thousands of southerners, including women and children, would turn out in a festive atmosphere to watch black men dismembered and burned alive as part of a terrorist campaign in the Jim Crow south that continued as late as 1950. The Civil War was fought at horrific cost because the sort of thinking that gave rise to such behavior had to be eradicated. The Confederate Flag is the symbol of those who killed to perpetuate this "Southern Culture" rather than recognize that it was an atrocity. Hopefully the South is finally ending its long period of denial and removing this despicable symbol is a good start.
3
America has changed. The era of endless, misguided comparison of Blacks with Whites is finally disappearing. Black/White comparison has never been valid or based on reality. Any continued Black comparison in America will likely be how Blacks fare in comparison to Asians, Hispanics, Indians, etc.
Because early American Whites had Black slaves, Whites (ironically) found themselves enslaved, held responsible for this terrible state of affairs. American Whites were subsequently charged with responsibility to provide support and employment opportunity for Blacks. With radical change in American demographics, American culture and society inevitably fragmented. The American social compact has changed. Whites are now not responsible for anyone but Whites. Asians are not responsible for anyone but Asians. Hispanics are not responsible for anyone but Hispanics. Blacks are not responsible for anyone but Blacks. This is what America has come to. Everyone is responsible for their own. Peaceful coexistence is required. The present future is quite different than the recent past. In the new America, there is no one left to blame. The old culture of false comparison and victimhood no longer exist. Americans (may) be in it together, yet responsible for their own. Patronizing, misguided policies interfering with private affairs of others has ended. Americans simply want to be left alone, to be with their own, to live their lives in freedom. We wish everyone the best. Good luck and Good-bye..
Because early American Whites had Black slaves, Whites (ironically) found themselves enslaved, held responsible for this terrible state of affairs. American Whites were subsequently charged with responsibility to provide support and employment opportunity for Blacks. With radical change in American demographics, American culture and society inevitably fragmented. The American social compact has changed. Whites are now not responsible for anyone but Whites. Asians are not responsible for anyone but Asians. Hispanics are not responsible for anyone but Hispanics. Blacks are not responsible for anyone but Blacks. This is what America has come to. Everyone is responsible for their own. Peaceful coexistence is required. The present future is quite different than the recent past. In the new America, there is no one left to blame. The old culture of false comparison and victimhood no longer exist. Americans (may) be in it together, yet responsible for their own. Patronizing, misguided policies interfering with private affairs of others has ended. Americans simply want to be left alone, to be with their own, to live their lives in freedom. We wish everyone the best. Good luck and Good-bye..
1
I agree 100% with taking the flag down. It is a symbol of slavery, and therefore a symbol of something evil. That said, I do not believe every American with Confederate ancestors is evil or racist as some of these comments tacitly imply. Now I have nothing to do with this historically as I am a child of immigrants who came here in the 1950’s, and I am fortunate that none of my ancestors engaged in the brutality of slavery anywhere in the world, so it’s not an issue I have to grapple with personally. But please remember: we are not our ancestors, and their history is not our history; and their mistakes are not our mistakes; and their evil is not our evil. We are the sum of OUR thoughts and actions and beliefs. Another point: I feel the critical issue being side-stepped with this flag debate is guns. The sad reality of humanity is there will always be evil humans in every society. There will always be racists, and pedophiles, and rapists, and murderers. There will always be evil. As a society we need to focus on ways to prevent those evil people from doing harm of such magnitude. It’s too easy for them to get guns.
1
In addition to removing the confederate flag from state owned properties, statues of the war criminal and post war terrorist Nathan Bedford Forrest that are on are public lands need to be pulled down, and public buildings that are named after him ( of which there are many) need to be renamed.
3
Even the Citadel, South Carolina's 173-year-old military academy, voted, 9 to 3, to remove the Confederate Naval Jack from the campus chapel.
Public displays of the flag may be considered as a matter of regional pride.
But the whole nation seems to be against it.
Public displays of the flag may be considered as a matter of regional pride.
But the whole nation seems to be against it.
1
Germany had the resolve to outlaw the use of Nazi symbols (flags, etc) for the obvious reasons even though it is part of their history. The confederate flag is no different; it represents slavery, murder, rape and hatred of an ethnic group, no different than the horror that occurred in Germany by the Nazi's. The confederate flag needs to be gone for good as it only serves as fuel for hatred.
4
There are many things that can be said about the Confederate Battle Flag. There are those, already, screaming about the "slippery slope" if states and groups are told to NOT FLY that flag. However there is one thing that history will NOT ALLOW to be changed. That thing is that the battle flag is the symbol of hate, discrimination, and racism. For those who have their doubts allow me to point out the THE founding Grand Wizard of the K.K.K a Mr. Nathan Bedford Forest stood UNDER that flag when he announced the formation of the group. Nuf said.
5
I propose we also ban any of Joseph Haydn's works from being played in any concert hall supported by tax dollars as Haydn wrote "Deutschland Uber Alles" -- who cares if he had no idea his melody would later be co-opted by the Nazis.
And while we're at it, why not ban Beethoven and Bach and of course Wagner. I suppose we can give Mozart a pass as he was Austrian... but I'm not in much of a forgiving mood.
Symbols are powerful and we must erase from our history the symbols and songs of oppression. Who knows what barbarous ideas the rhythmic impulses of Beethoven's music instigated in the formative minds of Goring, Himmler and the big bad guy himself, A. Hitler. The power of the 9nth symphony might have instilled in the German people a longing for conquest. I know my blood stirs when I hear it.
And the mathematical precision of Bach -- the rare appeal to emotion -- why, that must have incited many Germans to expand their horizons --and their borders.
And let us not forget, Hannibal Lecter loved the Goldbergs, the link between Bach's music and mayhem is clear.
And the myth of Germanic superiority as told through Wagnerian opera. Well, I'd say we should tear down German concert halls before they are played to audiences there again. I suppose Walmart and others should ban such recordings. Apple as well.
What say you good people? Let us not allow this feel good moment to be lost. Let's strike down every symbol of oppression we can find. On to victory!!!!!
And while we're at it, why not ban Beethoven and Bach and of course Wagner. I suppose we can give Mozart a pass as he was Austrian... but I'm not in much of a forgiving mood.
Symbols are powerful and we must erase from our history the symbols and songs of oppression. Who knows what barbarous ideas the rhythmic impulses of Beethoven's music instigated in the formative minds of Goring, Himmler and the big bad guy himself, A. Hitler. The power of the 9nth symphony might have instilled in the German people a longing for conquest. I know my blood stirs when I hear it.
And the mathematical precision of Bach -- the rare appeal to emotion -- why, that must have incited many Germans to expand their horizons --and their borders.
And let us not forget, Hannibal Lecter loved the Goldbergs, the link between Bach's music and mayhem is clear.
And the myth of Germanic superiority as told through Wagnerian opera. Well, I'd say we should tear down German concert halls before they are played to audiences there again. I suppose Walmart and others should ban such recordings. Apple as well.
What say you good people? Let us not allow this feel good moment to be lost. Let's strike down every symbol of oppression we can find. On to victory!!!!!
2
How about making a real argument instead of this assortment of lazy equivalences? The Confederate flag had a simple and clear set of meanings (slavery, white supremacy, inequality) that the founding Confederates explicitly said it stood for. Repeatedly. So it's not actually something that was appropriated, misunderstood, or otherwise stripped of its original meaning. That's why segregationists revived it in the 1950s--because they knew and agreed with what it stood for.
1
I live in SC and i believe the Confederare Flag should be removed only because we are the United States not the confederate states but the Civil War was not fought over slaverly and racism it was over states rights and tarrifs places on the southern states. Leading generals in the southern army didnt even believe in slavary... And when Abraham Lincoln emancipated the slaves he did it to the slaves of the south not the north there where even blacks that fought for true reason of the civil war. History is being rewritten
http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofca...
Sure seems to me, from reading their own words, that the treasonous insurrection was explicitly to maintain a white supremacist regime. The only revision is the one trying to remove that indisputable fact!
Sure seems to me, from reading their own words, that the treasonous insurrection was explicitly to maintain a white supremacist regime. The only revision is the one trying to remove that indisputable fact!
1
The South Carolinians who explicitly cited the defense of slavery as the reason for secession in the declaration of same would disagree with you.
2
If an attempt to rewrite history is being made, the makers (of the last 150 years and now) are the apologists for the farcically misnamed "glorious cause," which was 100% dedicated to: preservation of a hideous system of race based human slavery in the states where it had not yet been made illegal; then expansion of that hateful and inhuman system into the states in which it had been made illegal; and then into Mexico, Central and South America, most of the nations of which had already abolished slavery. If you doubt this, look at the rebellion's own foundational documents.
History is based on verifiable facts, not faith based assertions which reject verified facts in favor of comforting beliefs. The southern US people of today owe nothing positive to that hideous system and the insurgents whose rebellion led to the extirpation of that system. There was nothing humane or honorable about that system. There was no more honor in fighting, killing and dying to preserve that system than there was in German soldiers doing so to preserve the concentration camps of Nazi Germany. Modern Germans have understood Nazi oppression for what it was and revile it. Why should some modern southerners continue to refuse to understand the horror of the Old South's peculiar institution for what it was?
Suggest you read Allan Nevins' great survey The Ordeal of The Union, to understand what was really going on 1847-1866.
History is based on verifiable facts, not faith based assertions which reject verified facts in favor of comforting beliefs. The southern US people of today owe nothing positive to that hideous system and the insurgents whose rebellion led to the extirpation of that system. There was nothing humane or honorable about that system. There was no more honor in fighting, killing and dying to preserve that system than there was in German soldiers doing so to preserve the concentration camps of Nazi Germany. Modern Germans have understood Nazi oppression for what it was and revile it. Why should some modern southerners continue to refuse to understand the horror of the Old South's peculiar institution for what it was?
Suggest you read Allan Nevins' great survey The Ordeal of The Union, to understand what was really going on 1847-1866.
1
The day we openly acknowledge that the great founding fathers of the United States of America were slave owners themselves from Washington to Jefferson ( one even bred with them) that will be a day of reckoning, celebration and light.
Out of the ugly history of this nation we have progressed, but have so so far to go.
Praise the brave leaders who have - no matter how unreasonably long it has taken them - at last stood up and taken a stand of integrity, using a voice of humanity. - against the flag that flies as a shameful symbols of un-Christian ways.
Bravo!
Out of the ugly history of this nation we have progressed, but have so so far to go.
Praise the brave leaders who have - no matter how unreasonably long it has taken them - at last stood up and taken a stand of integrity, using a voice of humanity. - against the flag that flies as a shameful symbols of un-Christian ways.
Bravo!
3
Well said and a very salient point.
Another gun tragedy and we get a swift debate about a cloth flag, but still nothing is done, not even a debate, about the guns?
Just the other day in Mississippi, a man carried a rifle into a Wal-Mart, bought ammunition there and loaded and cocked the gun right there in the store - and the police were unable to arrest him because now laws were broken....!?
I'm all for freedom, but gun rights in this country are far more lenient than is remotely reasonable.
Just the other day in Mississippi, a man carried a rifle into a Wal-Mart, bought ammunition there and loaded and cocked the gun right there in the store - and the police were unable to arrest him because now laws were broken....!?
I'm all for freedom, but gun rights in this country are far more lenient than is remotely reasonable.
3
Yes, they do read Shakespeare in the South.
To many the confederate flag symbolizes a fight for independence during the Civil War, much as the United States did during the Revolutionary War and the Confederate Flag has always had connotations of rebellion, patriotism, self-determination, dissent, freedom, and liberty.
And for those people that feel this way, removing it will be offensive.
Yet in the racially divided and perpetually offended society that we have since Mr. Obama has been president; because American Blacks cannot or will not appreciate the freedom that it represents to others and only see what they want to see - slavery, oppression, etc - they are only offended - under the laws of political correctness and offense prevention, the first amendment rights of people and sanctity of state governance will be violated.
All of this while ISIS murders Christians, Jews and the wrong kind of Muslims and we let it happen and we are not doing anything about it.
Unbelievable.
And for those people that feel this way, removing it will be offensive.
Yet in the racially divided and perpetually offended society that we have since Mr. Obama has been president; because American Blacks cannot or will not appreciate the freedom that it represents to others and only see what they want to see - slavery, oppression, etc - they are only offended - under the laws of political correctness and offense prevention, the first amendment rights of people and sanctity of state governance will be violated.
All of this while ISIS murders Christians, Jews and the wrong kind of Muslims and we let it happen and we are not doing anything about it.
Unbelievable.
Seems to me that you must read up on the fact that the Confederates were explicitly fighting to maintain a white supremacist regime. Their claiming to fight for liberty is the utmost in hypocrisy.
4
This whole flag issue pales in comparison to real problems facing the average American citizen on a day-to-day basis. For example, Alabama took some confederate flags down today (or yesterday) and has anything changed racially in a single Alabaman as a result. Our leaders, and I use the term loosely, focus on hot-button issues driven by the media rather than actually tackling problems that can make a difference.
1
I'm in favor of removing the Confederate flag from government property. Beyond that I think things should be handled case by case in order to balance freedom of expression with desire to remove all traces of our sometimes ugly history.
2
I am NOT in favor of removing it it should stay its been there for a while it has nothing to do with RACE I think we wrote it in this country go down hill it's really ridiculous
In the midst of all of the talk etc. about removing the flag, let's not forget that this nation, north, south, east and west, is awash in guns with far too easy access to them which ulrimately accounts for the countless deaths of thousands of fellow citizens every year. Where is the outrage and will in Congress to deal with the all powerful NRA and other pro-gun groups? Then, again, if the slaughter of Connecticut elementary school children barely raised an eyebrow, it is probably very naïve of me to think what happened in Charleston will result in change.
5
Maggie2,
Instead of trying to pass an amendment to the constitution ending the rights of the 2nd amendment, we would have, I believe, an easier time amending the constitution where it creates the "rights" of lobbyists and influence, therefore, of wealthy special interest groups and PACs. I believe that it's time to put the government back into the hands of people and NOT into the hands of rich and powerful groups that don't particularly express the views of the majority of American people.
Instead of trying to pass an amendment to the constitution ending the rights of the 2nd amendment, we would have, I believe, an easier time amending the constitution where it creates the "rights" of lobbyists and influence, therefore, of wealthy special interest groups and PACs. I believe that it's time to put the government back into the hands of people and NOT into the hands of rich and powerful groups that don't particularly express the views of the majority of American people.
While there are points in the favor of the anti Confederate flag contingent, I think they should also worry about their morally (if not politically) based demands backfiring after they've had their feel good moment.
Certainly, Southern politicians who are willing to cave in to the demand that the flag be removed from government buildings are doing so under pressure and certainly there is little to be gained politically at this moment from defending the flag. But eventually there may be a backlash. Even moderates (or gasp, some dems) may begin to think that perhaps this was over reaching. Just because the KKK co-opted this flag as a symbol of its hatred does not alter its honorable history. And this could be polarizing, not unifying. I could easily foresee a reaction where more and more of those in the South choose to display the flag on their property. But, radical northerners have never cared about the long term implications of their policies.
And I continue to ask the greater question -- if we remove this symbol, why not other symbols of past American brutality. Certainly, Native Americans cannot view the US Flag with much warmth.
In my mind, this is a simply a feel good moment for those who congratulate themselves on being more enlightened. We can all lock hands and sing kumbaya now -- but it will accomplish nothing to bring down these flags other than allowing this moment.
Certainly, Southern politicians who are willing to cave in to the demand that the flag be removed from government buildings are doing so under pressure and certainly there is little to be gained politically at this moment from defending the flag. But eventually there may be a backlash. Even moderates (or gasp, some dems) may begin to think that perhaps this was over reaching. Just because the KKK co-opted this flag as a symbol of its hatred does not alter its honorable history. And this could be polarizing, not unifying. I could easily foresee a reaction where more and more of those in the South choose to display the flag on their property. But, radical northerners have never cared about the long term implications of their policies.
And I continue to ask the greater question -- if we remove this symbol, why not other symbols of past American brutality. Certainly, Native Americans cannot view the US Flag with much warmth.
In my mind, this is a simply a feel good moment for those who congratulate themselves on being more enlightened. We can all lock hands and sing kumbaya now -- but it will accomplish nothing to bring down these flags other than allowing this moment.
2
There is no honorable history to the battle flag of the minority cabal who wished to perpetuate and expand across the rest of the Western Hemisphere a race based system of imprisoning, working and abusing human beings whose skin happened to be black (or various shades of brown if their mothers, grandmothers and great-grandmothers had been subjected to sexual abuse) as if they were bipedal cattle with, as SCOTUS chief justice Roger Taney (of Maryland, then a slave state) suggested, no rights with which a white man need be concerned. Those who fought under that flag, and I grant that the great majority who fought did not hold other humans in involuntary servitude and were in various degrees being swindled by those who did, fought, took lives, and lost their own for a hideous cause which was evil beyond any redeeming aspects its apologists argued for it, then or now.
If the war of the rebellion is to be memorialized by flags, then flags appropriate to it would be the US national colors of that time and those of the 54th Massachusetts and other regiments of loyal citizen and/or freed African American composition who suppressed the rebellion. The rebel battle flag is no more entitled to honor than the Swastika flag of Germany under the Nazis, or the colors of 3rd Waffen SS Division Totenkopf, most of the original EM of which were drawn from concentration camp guards units.
If the war of the rebellion is to be memorialized by flags, then flags appropriate to it would be the US national colors of that time and those of the 54th Massachusetts and other regiments of loyal citizen and/or freed African American composition who suppressed the rebellion. The rebel battle flag is no more entitled to honor than the Swastika flag of Germany under the Nazis, or the colors of 3rd Waffen SS Division Totenkopf, most of the original EM of which were drawn from concentration camp guards units.
5
It's time to take them all down... Maybe we can cleanse this country and start over again, valuing our diversity and the contributions African Americans and other people of color have made to our country. Take them all down!
3
That's right we need to cleanse the country of whiteness and rebuild it based on minorities. Pretty much says it all.
As American companies race to end their sales of the rebel flag, like minded Americans will now be able to draw conclusions about their neighbors, who still want to display it.
3
Would like to hear from a biographer of Gen. Robert E. Lee. Perhaps bring gentility worthy of the NYT into the debate. As is, this nonsense is going to result in significant recruitment opportunity for the very same, comparatively small criminal element which you have painted an entire culture as being part of.
1
But the recruits, of which I don't believe there will be many, will be underground the way the KKK is. They'll have meetings and talk trash among themselves, and put forth literature that no one wants, and that will be it. No one will be able to convince himself, as Roof apparently did, that he can inspire an uprising by an act of violence, after this resounding repudiation.
2
No, you will be feeding them in prison where the vast majority will be inculcated with more that Southern history as you lobby for their early parole.
1
I like how Republican "strategists" are hailing Nikki Haley for her "courage".
As I see it, she ( and Lindsay Graham also ), have been "leading" their states for years and did absolutely nothing until this last Monday. Instead she and her colleagues spoke about the rights of her state and the will of the people.
I wonder if she will now perform a thorough review of every state policy and see which tend towards racism and discrimination, or will she just take a Sunday morning victory lap, high five herself, and go on with business as usual.
As I see it, she ( and Lindsay Graham also ), have been "leading" their states for years and did absolutely nothing until this last Monday. Instead she and her colleagues spoke about the rights of her state and the will of the people.
I wonder if she will now perform a thorough review of every state policy and see which tend towards racism and discrimination, or will she just take a Sunday morning victory lap, high five herself, and go on with business as usual.
4
She should certainly review the bust of the founder of the Ku klux clan at the state legislature
4
There was a time I could not understand the anger and outrage against the Confederate battle flag, but now I can. In the 1950's and after the this flag was co-opted to symbol against integration. Mississippi and Georgia changed their state flags to incorporate it. In recent years this flag has been shamed by its use by racists and worse like this evil young man who senseless committed mass murder of people far more worthy to walk this planet than he.
Even those who respected the flag for the heritage& courage of the men and women of the South during the War Between the States as did I, must now recognize this symbol has been perverted by evil people and it is time to let it be gone from public display, save for civil war films and re-enactments and museums.
If compromise is needed for public monuments and cemeteries then I join those who urge South Carolina to use the real Stars and Bars, the first Confederate flag, which has not been morally soiled modern day bigots, killers and terrorists.
Even those who respected the flag for the heritage& courage of the men and women of the South during the War Between the States as did I, must now recognize this symbol has been perverted by evil people and it is time to let it be gone from public display, save for civil war films and re-enactments and museums.
If compromise is needed for public monuments and cemeteries then I join those who urge South Carolina to use the real Stars and Bars, the first Confederate flag, which has not been morally soiled modern day bigots, killers and terrorists.
1
Any condederate flag is a flag of treason.
2
Who says that change is impossible? The groundswell on this is enormous as it is poignant. People can still put Confederate flags in their backyards or basements or attics or living rooms. The state capital, however, is a symbol for an entire state, and as such isn't private. It does not express the opininions of the bulk of South Carolina citizens. At least so I hope.
The movement against this flag (by the way I am watching the television coverage from Italy where most people find the statement of racism longed for--or so it seems--appears grotesque) for me has the connotation of letting us know that public opinion can still change things.
The movement against this flag (by the way I am watching the television coverage from Italy where most people find the statement of racism longed for--or so it seems--appears grotesque) for me has the connotation of letting us know that public opinion can still change things.
3
Hey Southerners - those of you reacting so strongly on this issue - do you think that everyone who wants to see the end of that flag also wants you to throw away all the other aspects of your culture and heritage, including the love of liberty and independence? I think it’s just the racist part of it that most reasonable people want to see you fess up to and let go of.
Those out there who don’t see that there’s SO much more to Southern culture than just the history of slavery, and the overlooking or acceptance of it, are probably those ‘liberals’ you all don’t like, and a pox on them.
But if you think that getting rid of that symbol ‘removes’ such a significant part of who you are, then y’all are just agreeing with them, aren’t you?
And while I can also well understand how much you don’t like having outsiders/Northerners tell you what you should do, where else is it going to come from? Obviously not from yourselves – been that way for a long, long time.
Those out there who don’t see that there’s SO much more to Southern culture than just the history of slavery, and the overlooking or acceptance of it, are probably those ‘liberals’ you all don’t like, and a pox on them.
But if you think that getting rid of that symbol ‘removes’ such a significant part of who you are, then y’all are just agreeing with them, aren’t you?
And while I can also well understand how much you don’t like having outsiders/Northerners tell you what you should do, where else is it going to come from? Obviously not from yourselves – been that way for a long, long time.
3
There is some overlap of "Southerners" and "people who want to keep this flag visible". Neither group is fully a subset of the other. Plenty of us white Southerners want the thing gone, and have wanted that for years. I suppose even more black Southerners have.
2
The racist part of the flag did not occur until circa 1948 with the formation of the State's Rights Party (aka the Dixiecrats) an offshoot of the Democratic Party opposed to forced desegregation. For the VAST MAJORITY of (educated) southerners, it has NO RELATION to slavery or racism in the slightest.
It's important to separate the battle flag from all other ways to honor Southern history including the Confederacy. The battle flag has been hi-jacked first by the KKK but since then by any number of groups and individuals, including non-Southerners, who are racist haters. It has become a rallying symbol for those kinds of people, and for that reason it must be stripped from its currently common use. However, the Confederacy itself and the people who served it, were honorable however much a person may disagree with their support of slavery. Blacks and others in America need to accept that. If reminders of the civil war upset them, perhaps they should view them as reminders that hundreds of thousands of people fought and died to successfully establish their civil rights in this country. So, in my mind the John C. Calhoun lake should stay as should the statue to Jefferson Davis in Austin, Texas. But the flag should not.
1
Honorable? They were as honorable as any other evil people. Should Germany erect statues of Hitler? He lasted a lot longer than the Confederacy.
3
Isn't odd that Mitt Romney was the "first" to bring up the Confederate flag issue as the main culprit over in Charleston. Great it ones want to bark the words "Take It Down" as one race considers as racism then why not take down the NACCP flag too as it represents racism. Anyone got an issue to comply to the US Constitution - "We the people in equality and fairness...Or is it that only one race is allowed to speak in public now politicians? You all are destroying principles this country was built upon, but you want God to Bless you all when you all act like animals instead of humans. Why should He Bless anyone who will not honor His name. Politicians in past wanted to remove "In God We Trust", be nice if we had "one" political leader who was not thinking about oneself, and think about this country wholly.
1
To me as a 'northern boy' growing up in the 1960s, the Stars & Bars was awlays a symbiol of the historic period linked forever with the U.S. Civil War. For 'some southerners', it was a political and social statement of a romatic past that probbaly had more of a foundation in the false memories of the present than it actual historic fact. While it is true that the war was coupled with states rights, it was the primray issue of slavery and the political and economic power derived from that linkage with slavery that drove the country to Civil War. In fact, President Lincoln initially desired to deal with southern slavery through a 'dying on the vine appraoch' in which slavery could be preserved in those states where it was coodified in existing laws and practice, but no further for any new state admitted unto the union via the existing construct in `1860 of admitting both a 'free' and 'slave' state into the union. Lincoln knew that sooner or later, slavery would be eliminated where it so existed through technology and the advance through the taming of the west. Yet the south wanted and needed new 'slave states' in order to preserve the future staus quo of statehood representation in both house of Congress, lest over time as the westward expansion continued, the south would find itself i a political minority in just a mere generation. Thus the table was set for war.
2
Please....the Rebel Flag that is the subject of this debate is NOT the "Stars and Bars". That name applies to the first national flag of the CSA which looked similar to the U.S. Flag.
1
Funny, you should say this because that is not so much of what's in the constitution of the Confederate States of America. That constitution says nothing of the spread of slavery but DOES say that NO MORE SLAVES can be brought into the CSA. I think that even in the South, people realized the end of slavery was near.
You're one of the few I've seen, though, that has realized and brave enough to express that Lincoln and the Republicans had MOT called for the END of slavery but to the end of the SPREAD of slavery. Like spoiled children, I think the people of the South just didn't want it FORCED on them.
You're one of the few I've seen, though, that has realized and brave enough to express that Lincoln and the Republicans had MOT called for the END of slavery but to the end of the SPREAD of slavery. Like spoiled children, I think the people of the South just didn't want it FORCED on them.
The battle flag represents the soldiers who fought for their state. Nothing more, nothing less. It was the Democrat Party and the KLAN that have used the flag for racial division. Now they complain of division they have caused !?
1
Southern Strategy. But you already knew that didn't you? Not even a nice try - no one in the DemocratIC party is buying it.
3
better ban the Christian cross too..... since it's used as the insignia for kkk uniforms.....and cell phones- people texting and driving, and cars- people on our roads driving drunk..... and the pornographic movies and filth being sold in retail stores... and anything that comes from that country that butilizes its people.....china!! and t-shirts that are sold at walmarts with Charlie mansons picture on them.....it's all offensive to someone! Where will it end?
1
Boy ol boy I can't wait to see the reaction when people realize that the Texas state flag aka the lone star flag was flown as a confederate battles flag.... Can't wait for them to try and take that flag down... This issue is people give things bad reps they make it be somthing and stand for somthing it never really did. I do understand the fear and uneasy feeling it gives people but you judge it cause you only look at it one way if it was because of slavery which the battle was never fought for that reason then you should hate the American flag which slaves were under and any other flag from that stand point. Cause let's be honest if it was a flag that had rainbows on it which make me feel uncomfortable does that give me the right to say take it down? No? Why? The flag doesn't harm anything right? So I wouldn't entertain the idea of throwing a big ordeal about getting it off the streets. I believe people can't be proud for what they stand for. So let's not get side tracked and make it a ploblicity stunt cause some kid clamid he was a rebel and flew the flag and it's the reason why he did it you want to get real on the subject get rid of red and blue bandanas, man wearing the wrong color in the wrong nabor hood can get you shot but it's ok to bang you click and all that and no one says anything about it but yet I bet there have been more killing cause of bandanas then there are cause of that flag start looking for truth and not the fast answer
1
We don't tolerate the Nazi flag. Nor should we tolerate the confederate flag.
1
Strange as it may seem, I think it would be good if African Americans co-opted this symbol and made it into a more ambiguous symbol. Similarly, we have invested the "N-word" with so much power that we cannot even utter it anymore (although President Obama seems to be trying to divest this word of some of its power by using it when he was interviewed by Marc Maron on June 22, 2015). Perhaps it is time for Americans of all colors to stop being cowed by symbols that were set up to subjugate blacks.
1
Freedictionary.com defines treason as: "The betrayal of allegiance toward one's own country, especially by committing hostile acts against it . . . ". Under this definition the confederate flag would represent acts of treason against the United States. We are supposed to publicly honor such acts by flying it at houses of government?
2
There should be no argument over the fact that this "flag" should never fly on any government building or property within the United States, nor should it be allowed on any government issued items such as license plates. Other than that, I don't care what they do with it or who sells or does not sell it. We understand that the insane who are inspired by it to commit murder will continue to do that but nevertheless---removal from anything connected to government is appropriate.
2
Those who claim what is erroneously called the "Stars and Bars" represents the South's heritage need to review their history. The flag being debated and that is emblazoned on modern merchandise, is most properly called the Rebel Flag and was rejected in 1861 as a proposed national flag. It was adopted as the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia under Lee.
The true Stars and Bars, the original flag of the Southern States after succession, was so close the the US flag that it caused confusion on the battle field. The design was revised twice during the war but never looked like the Rebel Flag. The crossed starry bars were on the flag, but were small, replacing the the US flag's familiar star field, and emblazoned on an initially pure white flag. A blood red bar was added at the right edge in 1865 as the final and rarely seen flag.
Many complained at the time that the CSA flag looked like a battle flag overlain on a white flag of truce or surrender. Perhaps a foreshadowing the South's unsuccessful campaign?
The true Stars and Bars, the original flag of the Southern States after succession, was so close the the US flag that it caused confusion on the battle field. The design was revised twice during the war but never looked like the Rebel Flag. The crossed starry bars were on the flag, but were small, replacing the the US flag's familiar star field, and emblazoned on an initially pure white flag. A blood red bar was added at the right edge in 1865 as the final and rarely seen flag.
Many complained at the time that the CSA flag looked like a battle flag overlain on a white flag of truce or surrender. Perhaps a foreshadowing the South's unsuccessful campaign?
2
The term "stainless" was used to describe the flag and, yes, for all you blood thirsty, Wall and Pearl street slave historians, it did have connotations of White supremacy according to sources familiar with its designer.
You're missing the point. The flag in question is the one adopted by the anti-civil rights movement during the '60s. That's why it has no place on government buildings in the "new" South. The fact that the movement to remove it has been so swift tells me lawmakers are (finally) aware of this.
1
Uh,duh. That was exactly my point. The flag that is causing the debate has less to do with Southern history and more to do with 20th century ideas. The argument that it represents Southern heritage is over stated.
And y'all say Southerners are slow!
And y'all say Southerners are slow!
My grandmother's father was born in New Jersey in 1860. At the age of 16, he was apprenticed to a cotton broker in Mobile, Alabama. In 1862 he joined the 2nd Regiment of the Alabama Volunteer Militia. Was HE fighting for Slavery? Was HE any more racist than Washington or Jefferson?
Slavery was the explicit cause of the war, no matter what individual soldiers thought. The perpetuation of slavery is mentioned in various articles of secession, in the cornerstone speech of Alexander Stephens, the vice president of the Confederacy, etc. Even a so-called compromise (Crittendom) was one in which several states would be allowed to have slavery in perpetuity.
So, yes, your great great grandfather was identified with racism, albeit it was a cultural value of the south at the time. There are many good people caught up in bad wars, and no one questions the heroism of the soldiers involved. Honor their memory, but not their lost cause of slavery. Put Confederate flags on their graves along with the CSA marker, but don't raise these over the state house.
So, yes, your great great grandfather was identified with racism, albeit it was a cultural value of the south at the time. There are many good people caught up in bad wars, and no one questions the heroism of the soldiers involved. Honor their memory, but not their lost cause of slavery. Put Confederate flags on their graves along with the CSA marker, but don't raise these over the state house.
2
How is it that after this horrific event, the national debate centers around a flag instead of gun control? How will flags being removed from Southern state capitols help the next victims of a delusional gun owner? Yes, I understand the symbolic importance of this gesture as it pertains to race relations and I support that, but I feel that it is distracting us as a country from the real issue--how to prevent future, homegrown, gun-related terrorism, be it in a church, school, or movie theater.
4
Ok, so the South Carolina legislature voted overwhelmingly to DEBATE removing the Confederate flag from is State House grounds. DEBATE being the operative word. They'll continue debating ad infinitum hoping the issue goes away. Looks like we're getting nowhere with them.
2
If they vote to take it down, will you come back and apologize?
Laura, to whom do I owe an apology? What should I apologize for? For demanding that a symbol of hate and racism be taken down? Taking down the Confederate flag should not even be debated. As it is so hurtful to so many Americans, especially descendants of enslaved Americans, to even debate the issue is an insult. I think you've confused just to whom the apology is owed.
1
Laura, shed the powerful swift sword and control thingy. We are all big boys and girls now.
I'm an older white man, and I've always been not only offended, but frankly intimidated/angered by the Confederate flag on someone's car or truck, tattooed on someone's arm or worn on their clothing.. This flag has always felt aggressive to me, letting me know that I'd better watch what I say or be ready to run or fight. Good riddance to it.
9
That is the exact purpose of the Confederate flag. However, it is not intended for you or the American people. It is intended to remind our government of what the American people are willing and capable to do to defend our rights
1
Frank, well done, thanks.
Isn't this what ISIS is trying to do? ISIS did not invent iconoclasm. It has a long and ancient tradition. But ISIS is certainly exercising leadership by reminding us that there is always evil in the past and that the past should therefore not be remembered. That is the point of its attempt to cleanse history of injustice by destroying the monuments designed to assist us in remembering events and people riddled by error and injustice. There have been many such iconoclastic movements over the course of history. Get rid of all the symbols and all of the statues. Let's begin with George Washington who was an oppressor of native Americans off our money and off our postage stamps. There is no limit to the memories we can get rid of after that. As Zinn has pointed out in his history of the US, our whole history is a history of injustice. I cannot think of a single politician or even states-person in our history with whom I do not have radical disagreement on key-points. We should destroy all their statues and erase the memory of all of them by destroying the historical monuments that are always monuments to injustice. Think of all the evil things that have been done by people carrying the American flag. It is a symbol of real evil and injustice to many people in the world. Get rid of it. Then we will be in a position to help other nations cleanse themselves. That will give us many lifetimes of work.
1
I believe that the Confederate Flag is the Geiger Counter of crazy. It should remain on the back of every truck, household, headband and tee-shirt. If you were to see Charles Manson face-to-face, what would his tattoo tell you?
2
That he's a Buckeye...just kidding.
At the end of the day I believe what the Confederate Flag represents is that that it easier for people to hold contradictory beliefs in their mind than it is for them to admit that they made a mistake.
You either want to be part of the United States of America and repudiate rebellions against the government or you don't. In either cases it is not acceptable for state governments to fly a flag which asserts that they are not fully loyal to the U.S.A.
You either want to be part of the United States of America and repudiate rebellions against the government or you don't. In either cases it is not acceptable for state governments to fly a flag which asserts that they are not fully loyal to the U.S.A.
4
Getting rid of the Confederate flag is like trying to forget about our individual state rights. That was what the Civil War was fought over and without those rights, that the Confederates were defending, this country would be very different. South Carolina should be proud to fly that flag. It is a symbol of the American people and what makes this the greatest country in the world. As for the flag being a symbol of racism, I have three words: President Barack Obama. If we can have a black president then obviously more than half of this country is not racist. Maybe we should stop worrying about racist freaks and worry about things like world hunger and climate change. Racism is not going to end the human race, climate change will. I hope everyone can be as worried about a flag when the East Coast is under 20 feet of water.
States' rights to do what? That's right, states' rights to maintain a barbaric system of human bondage. States don't have the right to keep human chattel.
2
Whose "heritage" is the Confederate flag supposed to represent? At the time of the Civil War, there were more slaves in many Confederate states than whites. Certainly, none of them are represented by this flag. Flying that flag on a statehouse is a way of saying, "we whites own all the power in this state, just as we always did." Calling this flag a symbol of heritage is akin to calling to fight to preserve slavery "the glorious cause." What was glorious about that "Cause" or that "Heritage?" for that matter, how was the Civil War a "War of Northern Aggression" when the South initiated it with a merciless bombardment of Fort Sumter? You really can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse simply by renaming it.
6
Remove a flag and racism is dead, right? Racism is alive in 2015 in South Carolina and across the U.S.A. Just because a Black man sits in the oval office doesn’t mean bigotry and racism is dead in America. South Carolina is home to 19 known racist groups – including two factions of the Ku Klux Klan and four “White Nationalist” organizations according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. White 21 year old racist bigoted homicidal butcher, Dylann Roof, is in jail awaiting trial, there are many more white racists out there eager and ready to commit these horrible senseless inhuman murders.......we just don’t know who they are or where they live. While the framers of the Constitution were creative in painting freedom and liberty, somehow Blacks were captured in Africa and brought to America and made slaves. Black American slaves were not considered sanctioned beings, rather they were considered property. American Blacks have been the target of White racist groups such as the KKK and the American Nazis. Racism and discrimination continues to be practiced by select American White citizens who do not belong to any hate group yet remain racists. The U.S. system was created to segregate American Blacks in Ghettos, Mexican Americans in Barrios, American Indians in Reservations, and American Orientals in China towns. The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream.....is still just a dream in 2015. More than 240 years of bigotry and racism in America the beautiful.
1
Let's not get loose with masculine characterizations here, sitting on hands in the Oval office does not warrant such credential.
How about a Fourth of July float, with a Confederate Battle Flag, A Nazi swastika flag, and a bunch of gun being dragged in the dirt behind the float?
On the float a placard that says Freedom for All
On the float a placard that says Freedom for All
4
Some say the real issue here is gun control, others make it about confederate symbols. I'm all for strong gun control - keeping guns out of he hands of crazies and terrorists (sic), required training, registry, background checks even at gun shows - but this guy could have done damage even without a gun, e.g., using a bomb, setting a fire etc. Better gun control? Yes. Remove the daily affront to blacks in particular on public property in SC? Yes. But, we're still left with the hatred.
3
I think that removing the flag from public prominence is a good idea. There is no need to have the government endorse what it means for those whose ancestors suffered from the horrible oppression by the States represented by it. However, I know I am in the minority, but I believe that banning the flag completely will give it more symbolic power for those who choose to see it as a symbol of white supremacy than it does now. We should not forget that many home grown terrorists espousing their love for this country wrap themselves in the the Stars and Stripes. Not every person who has affection for the flag is a racist or even views it as a symbol of white supremacy. I am sure there are those who see it as a symbol of a way of life that they see as distinct from other regions of this country that they wish to preserve. While I am not among those that feel that way, I believe they have the right to fly the flag if they wish without being classified as racists.
Modern, solvent, always loyal Blue-States can no longer be saddled with paying their own bills as well as having to pay the bills of backward, insolvent confederate states.
These proud Dixie Land states always prance and preen about how "Merica' t'ain't no socialist country" but then they turn around and bilk modern blue states out of our hard earned money via our unfair federal tax system.
Ironically the fitst in treason state of south carolina gets back and astonishing $7.82 for every $1 it sends in.
This has to end so I suggest we let the confederacy secede again.
I mean they hate America anyway and we real Americans have no more use for the dixie land parasites so let's go our own ways.
America into the future, the sad confederacy into the past.
These proud Dixie Land states always prance and preen about how "Merica' t'ain't no socialist country" but then they turn around and bilk modern blue states out of our hard earned money via our unfair federal tax system.
Ironically the fitst in treason state of south carolina gets back and astonishing $7.82 for every $1 it sends in.
This has to end so I suggest we let the confederacy secede again.
I mean they hate America anyway and we real Americans have no more use for the dixie land parasites so let's go our own ways.
America into the future, the sad confederacy into the past.
4
If the Supreme Court rules in favor of States Rights regarding the ACA we should fly it over the SC building. Someone should remind Justice Scalia that the Constitution was amended after its original structure almost destroyed our country.
This flag isn't just about race, it's about all of the citizens of the United States.
This flag isn't just about race, it's about all of the citizens of the United States.
2
If anyone thinks that removing a flag would have changed what Roof did then I suppose we should remove it, but individuals like Roof who are losers and mentally sick on drugs will unfortunately find something else to use. We so often find something or someone else to blame for our failures instead of looking at ourselves. Unfortunately Roof found blacks and took the lives of 9 good citizens. Are we encouraging the 'blame' mentality?
2
Flying the Confederate Flag denies the immorality of slavery. It's time to put it in a museum where children can learn from our past mistakes.
3
The Confederate flag must inspire the same disgust among African-Americans as the swastika does among Jews.
6
Obviously removing this flag will not by itself end racism & hatred. But because we cannot do everything at once is no reason not to do something. We take the steps we can when we can take them. The widespread call to remove the flag is itself a symbol of a growing desire to change. This flag is hurtful & clings to a shameful past. At the same time, the South does have an enormously rich & varied & deep heritage, esp. in the arts, within which Southerners of all backgrounds have grappled with who they are & how to live in the world honorably & justly. I appreciate & respect enormously that part of Southern heritage - which has so often taken as its subject a self-examination of its own racial past - and count it among the best that the US has to offer. As an old English major, I cut my teeth on Southern poets & fiction writers & essayists & playwrights & there's a crop of filmmakers making their mark too. I abhor the rebel flag & want it taken down everywhere. But we know that's not the end of the story.
2
Hallelujah! My husband and I were looking at buying a home in Hilton Head S. Carolina two months ago, and when a friend told me that S. Carolina still flew the Confederate flag in front of the capitol, I was horrified. I told my husband I'd never consider living in a state that glorified a tragic and unconscionable part of our past. My husband is a white south african and has lived through both the apartheid era and the unification brought about Mandela only to see his native country crumble under the current system of bribery and corruption. We have so much going for us in the United States and we all need to pull together as one nation striving for a better future for all, rather than living in the troubled, divisive and unfathomable past. Dylan Roof's actions had unintended consequences, but it sparked a nerve in this nation to bring about much needed change. It's high time!
4
@ Debra L
I've been going to the SC coast since I was small child in the late 40's. I clearly remember the segregated bathrooms and drinking fountains at the stations with their signs (we travelled by train). In the 50's my parents built a house there (we finally disposed of it about 7 years ago) after decades of not unpleasant vacations. However, I'm under no illusions about the nature of race relations in the South and the role they play in Republican politics. It is good to see Republicans finally moving even if I suspect it's at least partially for pecuniary motives and because as a party they don't want Republican candidates having to take a position on the flag during the presidential election. Never look a gift horse in the mouth?
I've been going to the SC coast since I was small child in the late 40's. I clearly remember the segregated bathrooms and drinking fountains at the stations with their signs (we travelled by train). In the 50's my parents built a house there (we finally disposed of it about 7 years ago) after decades of not unpleasant vacations. However, I'm under no illusions about the nature of race relations in the South and the role they play in Republican politics. It is good to see Republicans finally moving even if I suspect it's at least partially for pecuniary motives and because as a party they don't want Republican candidates having to take a position on the flag during the presidential election. Never look a gift horse in the mouth?
I was born in NC in 1952 and have lived in South Carolina since 1988. My great great grandfather, Corporal Lewis Tompkins, was a member of the Ohio National Guard and fought in the Civil War in 1864. I would be very surprised if the South Carolina Legislature approves the removal of the Confederate flag from the Capitol grounds. A large majority of SC legislators care about 3 things - themselves, getting elected and getting reelected. If they vote to remove the flag and it is placed in its proper place (a museum), they face defeat in their next election. Racism, bigotry and prejudice is alive and well in South Carolina. On this date, the body of a great man, Pastor and Senator Clementa Pickney, lies in state at the Capitol Building while the Confederate flag flies nearby. How sad.
4
This seems to be just the beginning of a release of pent up emotions. One wonders how far it will go. I worry about it.
1
People in the south forget that all members of the CSA were traitors, having waged war against the United States. By the way, the Civil War was caused by the failure to resolve the Slavery issue. And as to Sam Smith's comment, I'm sure there were very brave men who carried the rising sun flag of the Imperial Japanese Army who had the exact same feelings as did your ancestors, in such places as Okinawa, where there was no place to run, no surrender, just fight until death. Think you can find that flag in Japan today?
3
While I agree completely with your comment, I must point out that the Hinomaru (national) and the rising sun (Imperial Japanese Navy) have not changed; they are the same flags today that they were in WWII. Germany, on the other hand, is a much better example of your point.
1
It would be great if this debate shifted from the historical meaning of this flag to the statement people want to make *today*. Because the flag stands for different things to different people, we'll probably never reach consensus about its "real" significance. But *removing* the flag from broad public display would be a powerful and much-needed statement of conciliation. Wouldn't it be amazing if people of conscience who are (also!) proud of their Confederate ancestors and heritage decided that this is a gesture worth making?
1
The problem with the flag is that some of us actively promote and keep alive the values of what was called the Confederacy, saying the South will rise again. It is a symbol of defiance against federal control. Ever wonder why Republican Politicians are against the EPA, IRS and ACA? That flag is symbolic of their constituency and by removing one flag on statehouse grounds will do nothing to end racism.
2
The kids and grand-kids enjoyed the '6 Flags over Texas' theme park. So did I.
Flags: Spain, France, Mexico, Republic of Texas, Confederate & USA.
The Ferris wheel is not an endorsement of the Spanish Inquisition or the French Reign of Terror.
Flags: Spain, France, Mexico, Republic of Texas, Confederate & USA.
The Ferris wheel is not an endorsement of the Spanish Inquisition or the French Reign of Terror.
A Confederste flag should not fly in a government of the USA building, only an American flag.
The Confederate flag is a powerful symbol for a constellation of ideas that are superseded or illegal, such as white supremacy and slavery. Its power has been proven by the tragedy we have witnessed. Those persons that say they are honoring their grandfather should find another way of doing it. We do not hear the Germans condoning the use if the svastika because some want to honor their misguided ancestors. Those who insist on holding on to the Confederate flag forget that the Civil War had consequences, especially, upholding the dignity of all human beings.
The Confederate flag is a powerful symbol for a constellation of ideas that are superseded or illegal, such as white supremacy and slavery. Its power has been proven by the tragedy we have witnessed. Those persons that say they are honoring their grandfather should find another way of doing it. We do not hear the Germans condoning the use if the svastika because some want to honor their misguided ancestors. Those who insist on holding on to the Confederate flag forget that the Civil War had consequences, especially, upholding the dignity of all human beings.
1
We are one country. We have one flag. That's the only flag other than a state flag that should fly on a public building. Period.
But if we can let Mexican immigrants wear Cinco de Mayo t-shirts in Arizona, then people should be allowed to express their opinion wearing a confederate flag or flying one on private property. Period. I'm sorry if free speech offends people. That's the beauty of free speech.
I'm not a supporter of the confederacy or its tenets other than states' rights. However, I will support anyone who wants to use it as an emblem, regardless of how offensive it is.
But if we can let Mexican immigrants wear Cinco de Mayo t-shirts in Arizona, then people should be allowed to express their opinion wearing a confederate flag or flying one on private property. Period. I'm sorry if free speech offends people. That's the beauty of free speech.
I'm not a supporter of the confederacy or its tenets other than states' rights. However, I will support anyone who wants to use it as an emblem, regardless of how offensive it is.
3
Well said!
Mr. Reeves went on: “Flags and emblems are chosen by a group of people as a symbol of all that unites and ties the group together. The good and bad in our shared history, and all that we have learned from it, is something that ties us together.”
The confederate flag defies this description. It was "chosen" not by all people but by the select group who were considered citizens at the time. Next, a flag that symbolizes a need for white supremacy does not tie people together, at least not in any healthy manner. It ties us through a hierarchy.
I agree, though, that the flag symbolizes the good and bad. It symbolizes the state as a whole, in this case a failed state. It's only logical, then, that people not be required to pay allegiance to a symbol of a nation-state when life in said nation-state is far from good. The same goes for the American flag. Flag burning is the most rational response to the Charleston tragedy, given that the flag symbolizes all the bad and all that defines us hierarchically.
The confederate flag defies this description. It was "chosen" not by all people but by the select group who were considered citizens at the time. Next, a flag that symbolizes a need for white supremacy does not tie people together, at least not in any healthy manner. It ties us through a hierarchy.
I agree, though, that the flag symbolizes the good and bad. It symbolizes the state as a whole, in this case a failed state. It's only logical, then, that people not be required to pay allegiance to a symbol of a nation-state when life in said nation-state is far from good. The same goes for the American flag. Flag burning is the most rational response to the Charleston tragedy, given that the flag symbolizes all the bad and all that defines us hierarchically.
3
Since we are getting rid of symbols of racism, maybe it is time the get rid of the ones that belittle, and humiliate Native Americans. Lets start with all the sport teams that use derogatory names.
4
If there were fewer publicly displayed symbols of racism and hatred there would be less anger, and less racist hatred. It has been proven that symbols of hate are the logos of racism.
If there was strict national gun control and regulation, there would be far fewer deaths annually by guns.
The argument that people just have to kill and resort to using other means is simply untrue, a lie.
The argument that we need guns to protect ourselves from invasion when we have nukes, a multi-trillion dollar army, and navy, is lunatic and stupid.
The argument that people will get guns anyway is patently and demonstrably false and provable by comparing our nation with democratic countries where guns were previously plentiful and such laws enacted: England; Australia, etc.
The only loser in massive gun regulation and control would be the civilian arms manufacturers who have been selling guns and manufacturing all guns used both legally and illegally. Guns aren't like pot. There will be no 'underground gun manufacturers,' or they would be one-offs - like the guns that would be produced by a 3-D printer.
If it wasn't for the gun, we probably wouldn't be having this debate about the emblems of the Confederacy. But, now that we are, it's high time we got them off the shelf of Walmart and shunned by our society as the traitorous legacy of racial violence and enslavement it embodies.
If there was strict national gun control and regulation, there would be far fewer deaths annually by guns.
The argument that people just have to kill and resort to using other means is simply untrue, a lie.
The argument that we need guns to protect ourselves from invasion when we have nukes, a multi-trillion dollar army, and navy, is lunatic and stupid.
The argument that people will get guns anyway is patently and demonstrably false and provable by comparing our nation with democratic countries where guns were previously plentiful and such laws enacted: England; Australia, etc.
The only loser in massive gun regulation and control would be the civilian arms manufacturers who have been selling guns and manufacturing all guns used both legally and illegally. Guns aren't like pot. There will be no 'underground gun manufacturers,' or they would be one-offs - like the guns that would be produced by a 3-D printer.
If it wasn't for the gun, we probably wouldn't be having this debate about the emblems of the Confederacy. But, now that we are, it's high time we got them off the shelf of Walmart and shunned by our society as the traitorous legacy of racial violence and enslavement it embodies.
5
The confederacy was a government which believed in state"s rights and the institution of slavery. If the confederate flag reminds people of America's past sins, should not the images of our founding fathers be removed as a majority of them were slave holders?
2
There are across the United States several communities and sections within other communities known as "Germantown." NONE DO. But what if they did: Hoist atop various public and private buildings the swastika emblazoned flag of the Third Reich as a symbol recalling the heroic fighting by German soldiers in World War II? What if the citizens insisted the flag had nothing to do with the atrocities committed, rather that flying the flag was intended only to recognize the bravery just cited? And then, as has Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, justified the flag as it's "Who we are"? Christmas eve, 1860, South Carolina posted its Declaration of Secession; a 2-page document (http://www.civil-war.net/pages/southcarolina_declaration.asp) that cited sixteen times the defense of slavery as its only reason for seceding from the union, and then in April the following year the state militia, preceded the Empire of Japan by a mere 80 years, wholly unprovoked, fired on and laid siege to a United States military post, Fort Sumter. In the name of all that may be called civil, what possibly can there be that is the least to be proud of in those behaviors and the symbols that recall them to mind? If there is any lesson to be learned here it is that the failure to teach history honestly, or to learn it and be a student of it, has the most dire consequences for a society that would move forward, out of a dismal, tawdry past into a brighter more civil and just future. -- EJT
4
The Christian Cross is next. Do you really think we are all that stupid? Liberal/Democrat/Progressive/Fascist/Communist/ et al! They all hate the success of America. Jesus gave us Personal Responsibility and Individual Freedom. The Magna Carta recorded it. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution ensconced it in the Law of the Land. Everything Liberals hate.
Read the Constitution of the Confederate States. Then tell us why the flag represents "states' rights" (which is never mentioned), or heritage and culture.
Link: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp
Article I Sec. 9. (I) The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; ... .
(2) Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy.
(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.
ARTICLE IV Sec. 2. (I) The citizens of each State ... shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.
(3) No slave or other person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the Confederate States, ... shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs, ...
Sec. 3. (3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; ... In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; ...
Link: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp
Article I Sec. 9. (I) The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; ... .
(2) Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy.
(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.
ARTICLE IV Sec. 2. (I) The citizens of each State ... shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.
(3) No slave or other person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the Confederate States, ... shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs, ...
Sec. 3. (3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; ... In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; ...
10
Look, that flag has been OVER-protected for many years. It is time to take it down.
Those who grieve the flag coming down, you are not grieving a loved one. And you can hang that flag in every room of your house, if you choose.
There's a principle, when it comes to abuse or harassment. It says, "The thinnest skin governs." And that means if someone feels intimidated, not just offended but INTIMIDATED, then you are crossing a line and that line is called abuse or harassment, be it sexual abuse or racism.
That flag has been used to INTIMIDATE. And I'm sorry if it pains you to have the flag eliminated from government-sanctioned raising and flying. But those days must end for that is a flag, which represents suppression and intimidation of a minority group brought to these shores against their will, sold, overworked, beaten, tortured, lynched.
Slavery ended long ago. Segregation ended long ago. Now is a time for healing. And that healing depends on the removal - from public places - of signs and symbols of oppression.
Those who grieve the flag coming down, you are not grieving a loved one. And you can hang that flag in every room of your house, if you choose.
There's a principle, when it comes to abuse or harassment. It says, "The thinnest skin governs." And that means if someone feels intimidated, not just offended but INTIMIDATED, then you are crossing a line and that line is called abuse or harassment, be it sexual abuse or racism.
That flag has been used to INTIMIDATE. And I'm sorry if it pains you to have the flag eliminated from government-sanctioned raising and flying. But those days must end for that is a flag, which represents suppression and intimidation of a minority group brought to these shores against their will, sold, overworked, beaten, tortured, lynched.
Slavery ended long ago. Segregation ended long ago. Now is a time for healing. And that healing depends on the removal - from public places - of signs and symbols of oppression.
8
The way in which the liberal media attempts to govern the delivery of information in our country intimidates me.
I am amazed at how many people, (lot of New Yorkers) are attempting to draw parallels between Nazi Germany, and the Confederacy. TOTALLY DIFFERENT idealogy folks! Time to stop spewing what you think you know, and go back and study what really happened…. But you won't, will you?
1
Please clue us in. What really happened? I choose to learn this by reading the words of the Confederate secession commissioners and the Confederate Constitution. Pretty clear what those stood for, since they said it over and over.
The Confederate flag is America and it is a symbol of our collective guilt and shame as a nation. Slavery was wrong and it had to end but the North did not participate in a fair and equitable compensation that would made it easier for the South to transition to a free wage based or individual based economy. The North was good wanting to free the slaves but left an unfair burden on the South to pay for it. If the north had offered 50% compensation to Southern plantation owners for each slave freed there would have been no reason for a war or for the animosity that exists today. The plantation owners could have used the money to pay wages and transform the south overnight. This did not happen. The North demanded an end to slavery but did not help pay for it so the South was unfairly punished for this progressive ideal.
The Confederate flag to me is about sorrow and loss and a nation that still needs to heal from this mistake. Slavery was wrong and it had to end but the war was not the way to do it and the flag to me is a symbol of this missed opportunity and the pain and sorrow that it caused. The Confederate flag is as American as the Stars and Stripes. Taking the flag down or not selling Confederate Flag Images will not alleviate the collective guilt of this nation for our brutal and unfair history within our own boarders towards our own people.
The Confederate flag to me is about sorrow and loss and a nation that still needs to heal from this mistake. Slavery was wrong and it had to end but the war was not the way to do it and the flag to me is a symbol of this missed opportunity and the pain and sorrow that it caused. The Confederate flag is as American as the Stars and Stripes. Taking the flag down or not selling Confederate Flag Images will not alleviate the collective guilt of this nation for our brutal and unfair history within our own boarders towards our own people.
Nonsense. Southern plantation owners were enormously wealthy because they has profited from free slave labor for generations. Many slaves were abused and died across those generations. Women were raped, children were sold, and both men and women were whipped, etc. Why should slave owners have been compensated? It is the slaves who were due compensation.
2
Roky I'm kind of with you... But "collective guilt?"
Let's move on. I never owned slaves, and you didn't either. We both agree it was wrong.
But my ancestors ( and maybe yours) were in Europe back then. Regardless... It is 2015 and I don't see feeling guilty for something none of us ever had anything to do with...
Let's move on. I never owned slaves, and you didn't either. We both agree it was wrong.
But my ancestors ( and maybe yours) were in Europe back then. Regardless... It is 2015 and I don't see feeling guilty for something none of us ever had anything to do with...
In Germany there are no statues of Hitler, no swaztikas flying from government buildings and no tolerance for Nazi ideology. There is nothing to honor, no one to celebrate. They know their history in this regard, and it represents a collective guilt.
So those who defend the Confederate flag are both denying what it is a symbol of and failing to grasp what Germans understand so readily. No matter how much some Americans try to spin the meaning of the flag, it only represents this country's shameful history of racism and slavery, and a war those in the South fought to retain slavery. There is no honor to be found in this symbol or those who refuse to accept the shame it represents.
The long shadow of racism and slavery remains today, with obvious signs of racism even now. The Confederate flag has to go, along with the statues and plaques that represent its values. Replace them with symbols of those who have fought for equality for all.
Eclectic Pragmatist — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
So those who defend the Confederate flag are both denying what it is a symbol of and failing to grasp what Germans understand so readily. No matter how much some Americans try to spin the meaning of the flag, it only represents this country's shameful history of racism and slavery, and a war those in the South fought to retain slavery. There is no honor to be found in this symbol or those who refuse to accept the shame it represents.
The long shadow of racism and slavery remains today, with obvious signs of racism even now. The Confederate flag has to go, along with the statues and plaques that represent its values. Replace them with symbols of those who have fought for equality for all.
Eclectic Pragmatist — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
8
That is because Germany does not have the tradition of Freedom of Speech that we in the US supposedly maintain. I fully support any measure taken by the majority to put up or take down any symbol in a public building. I fully support the right of any merchant to either sell or not sell any merchandise they see fit. I do not support in any way any attempt to criminalize expression of any ideology, no matter if I find it repugnant or marvelous.
For those who have read history, you know slavery was an American, not Southern institution. You know the Civil War was fought over much more complex issues than slavery, although slavery was certainly a key factor. You also know many Southern leaders were not large scale slave owners. You also know that many of the Southern commanders had formerly been US Army officers but resigned when their states seceded.
You also know at the time the idea of the supremacy of the federal government was in question and the primary loyalty of many in both North and South was to their state.
And you also know that the Southern armies were led by many brilliant generals and soldiered by brave men who fought for their homeland against what they perceived as an invader.
Ultimately, the South lost, which was a good thing, but the War of Northern Aggression continues. The north has sought to destroy the South and denigrate Southerners for he last 150 years. So I am not surprised that the deaths of nine innocents is being used for political gain.
You should respect the exploits of Confederate armies, their bravery against long odds. It is part of our collective history and southerners have fought with distinction in many wars before and since the Civil War to defend the US.
As for you who called confederates traitors and called for renaming streets and removal of statues of their generals, how dare you. You wouldn't have been worthy of polishing Bobby Lee's boots.
You also know at the time the idea of the supremacy of the federal government was in question and the primary loyalty of many in both North and South was to their state.
And you also know that the Southern armies were led by many brilliant generals and soldiered by brave men who fought for their homeland against what they perceived as an invader.
Ultimately, the South lost, which was a good thing, but the War of Northern Aggression continues. The north has sought to destroy the South and denigrate Southerners for he last 150 years. So I am not surprised that the deaths of nine innocents is being used for political gain.
You should respect the exploits of Confederate armies, their bravery against long odds. It is part of our collective history and southerners have fought with distinction in many wars before and since the Civil War to defend the US.
As for you who called confederates traitors and called for renaming streets and removal of statues of their generals, how dare you. You wouldn't have been worthy of polishing Bobby Lee's boots.
6
"As for you who called confederates traitors and called for renaming streets and removal of statues of their generals, how dare you."
How dare you rewrite American history. The South brought the Civil War on itself, and then continued to treat African-Americans with contempt, placing no value on their lives or their rights. It resisted all attempts to bring equality to the lives of African-Americans living in the South. It's still doing so when it comes to voting rights.
Would you apply your historical revisionism to Nazi Germany as well? Let's take your assertion "You should respect the exploits of Confederate armies, their bravery against long odds" and replace Confederate with Nazi. In reality, neither one deserves respect or honor.
The death of nine innocents has nothing to do with political gain and everything to do with the continuing racism and the continued presence of know-nothing white supremacists in this country (particularly in the South.) Stop trying to make history conform to your personal biases and see it for what it actually is.
Eclectic Pragmatist — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
How dare you rewrite American history. The South brought the Civil War on itself, and then continued to treat African-Americans with contempt, placing no value on their lives or their rights. It resisted all attempts to bring equality to the lives of African-Americans living in the South. It's still doing so when it comes to voting rights.
Would you apply your historical revisionism to Nazi Germany as well? Let's take your assertion "You should respect the exploits of Confederate armies, their bravery against long odds" and replace Confederate with Nazi. In reality, neither one deserves respect or honor.
The death of nine innocents has nothing to do with political gain and everything to do with the continuing racism and the continued presence of know-nothing white supremacists in this country (particularly in the South.) Stop trying to make history conform to your personal biases and see it for what it actually is.
Eclectic Pragmatist — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
8
"As for you who called confederates traitors and called for renaming streets and removal of statues of their generals, how dare you. You wouldn't have been worthy of polishing Bobby Lee's boots."
You were doing a pretty good job of presenting your case until you got to this part.
You were doing a pretty good job of presenting your case until you got to this part.
3
I am southern born and bred and a former officer in the United States Army. You can keep trying to shine the turd all you like; it's not working. Taking up arms against these United States is treason. And as for "Bobby Lee's" boots, I would have spit on them, but I wouldn't have had the lowest private in my command shine the boots of a traitor.
6
Let me start by saying that I respect Southern pride, and acknowledge and credit much of the rich history of the southern US. At the same time, I am interested, but saddened, by attempts to deflect the Confederate flag's meaning, and its current use as a symbol. All one need do is to read the writings of the Secession Commissioners sent throughout the South to encourage secession, or to read the actual secession declarations of most of the confederate states, to know that the driving force behind secession was the protection of slavery. While that can be called States' Rights, it is, nonetheless, a protection of an inhuman institution. The fact that the flag was not used for decades after the Civil War only serves to make its modern usage more pointed: It began to reappear first as a symbol of the KKK, and then in public during the Civil Rights movement. This makes it a clear symbol of intimidation. If for no other reason, its blatant and aggressive use by white supremacist organizations and individuals should make all reasonable people of good will shy away from its use. It has been 100 years since the end of The War. Let us move forward together as one nation, with the symbols of our former division put firmly in the past. Let this land be your land, just as it is my land, and let us care for and protect the "life, liberty, and. . .happiness" of ALL of our citizens.
3
What will be the next flag to be removed from public view?
2
After all references of God and the fact that this country was founded on freedom...AND Christian princies...are also erased...
New York, before you rail against Mississippi's flag, check your own. In today's Times, there's also an article about the 100th anniversary of New York City's flag, the colors of the Dutch national flag, with a seal with a settler and Native American. This is a celebration of colonialism and genocide, just as abhorrent as slavery. Let's set an example and change it.
My candidate: the Statue of Liberty, a universal symbol of freedom. Perhaps over a city skyline. On a rainbow field, to celebrate New York's diversity.
Henry Lieberman
My candidate: the Statue of Liberty, a universal symbol of freedom. Perhaps over a city skyline. On a rainbow field, to celebrate New York's diversity.
Henry Lieberman
3
As with all things the "Stars and Bars" of the Confederate Battle Flag is just a symbol. It only has power in the minds of the actors in this drama. A far more effective end to this particular racist symbol would be for all to say, "So what, fly it if you like, it is just trash to me."
Much like the news coverage that goes to school shooters we only feed the beast when we yell at the sorry excuses that revel in flying this rag.
Much like the news coverage that goes to school shooters we only feed the beast when we yell at the sorry excuses that revel in flying this rag.
1
Didn't the U.S. win that war? I really think it was a mistake not to treat confederates like traitors. I know that the political will wasn't exactly there at their at the time, and it is not like the Radical Republicans (the far left liberals of the day) didn't advocate for it, more or less, but just look at all the problems it has caused the U.S. The south should have been treated as what they were a vanquished foreign nation.
There is no legitimacy to the Confederate flag within the U.S. It is a flag of a foreign sovereignty and should not be allowed to fly on U.S. soil irrespective of the issues of slavery and white supremacy.
I realize this is a minority view and that Lincoln himself was eager not to have the war couched in these terms during the Civil War. However I think not doing so has caused us nothing but problems that were worse then the other problems we would have had had we not left this issue an open wound to fester.
There is no legitimacy to the Confederate flag within the U.S. It is a flag of a foreign sovereignty and should not be allowed to fly on U.S. soil irrespective of the issues of slavery and white supremacy.
I realize this is a minority view and that Lincoln himself was eager not to have the war couched in these terms during the Civil War. However I think not doing so has caused us nothing but problems that were worse then the other problems we would have had had we not left this issue an open wound to fester.
6
The goal and objectives of the Republican party are the same as the Confederacy with the exception of slavery, which is now in the form of illegal immigrant labor, with no rights.
8
My Grandfather was one to point out the families participation in the War Between the States and talked happily with whoever would listen about the fact that his side of the family tree supported and contributed to the Confederate cause . As a child I listened and knew nothing of the misery of war , of any kind , let alone the Civil War. I went through most of my youth content that my family had supported a cause allowing land owners to do as they saw fit on their own property and saw no reason then to find any of the symbols of that conflict distasteful or obscene . Since , and learning much about that time in history , I have come to understand how others saw the war and it's misery.
Anyone that would want to glorify the ugliness of that time in the middle 1800's is misrepresenting the truth out of ignorance or arrogance and needs to take a long and fresh look at the War ; it's causes and legacy.
That deadly mistake needs to dwell in history books as reference ; not revived as justification to destroy more life than it had then and subversively continues to do now .
Anyone that would want to glorify the ugliness of that time in the middle 1800's is misrepresenting the truth out of ignorance or arrogance and needs to take a long and fresh look at the War ; it's causes and legacy.
That deadly mistake needs to dwell in history books as reference ; not revived as justification to destroy more life than it had then and subversively continues to do now .
8
Southern heritage?!? The people who marched and fought under the Stars and Bars were traitors. Only by the graces (reluctantly granted) of Andrew Johnson's grant of amnesty were these terrorists allowed to regain their citizenship. The fraud of southern heritage needs to identified for what it truly is - politically acceptable terms for racial disharmony and a refusal to accept that their ancestors' treason was defeated.
10
If you're going to call the Confederates traitors then you better be prepared to call yourself one as well. If you're not comfortable with that then you can go back to Great Britain which is where they call Americans traitors. If Britain had won our war of independence it would have been known as a British civil war. So next time you decide to call someone a traitor, look at where you come from. You may be surprised
The confederate flag is a symbol of slavery and the dissolution of America. There is a profound relationship between an American displaying the confederate flag and a German displaying the Nazi flag. The only way to ride us of this un-American symbol is to follow the German’s and make the flag illegal. As for the people who call it their heritage, why would anyone want to be remembered for being duped into fighting for the property of a handful of rich slave-holders?
8
"The only way to ride us of this un-American symbol is to follow the German’s and make the flag illegal."
I'd be happy seeing it made exactly as illegal in the United States as the Nazi flag is.
I'd be happy seeing it made exactly as illegal in the United States as the Nazi flag is.
3
If SC is serious about taking down the flag and it is more than public pressure that's behind it, it should be done ceremoniously with a proclamation by State and federal leaders that this symbol should be removed everywhere as an act of decency and respect. This flag has several meanings, but above all, it is a mark of disrespect and defiance to the Union that we call the United States of America.
18
"Share your thoughts"? Here are a few:
1. It's not that members of Confederate veterans' organizations are "misunderstood"; it's that they *willfully ignore* the validity of the reasons for taking that flag down.
2. The reasons for taking down this flag shouldn't be personal (the Citadel), or religious (I do believe most who espoused slavery in this country were Christians, no? Mr. Gunn and others, please, drop the religious aspect of it.) This flag represents the deliberate abrogation of human rights.
3. Those of you who want to fly that flag, do so at your home, so the rest of us know your stance from the comfortable distance of the road.
4. Ben Jones, your grandpappy believed in a system that did MUCH worse than insulting and demeaning human beings. Grandpappy's politics MUST be cleansed from our national culture.
5. What happened in Charleston was not "irrational." STOP SAYING THAT. Such willful ignorance and misdirection is unconscionable. Roof was not "evil on his own."
6. Bravo and thanks to all companies, politicians and citizens who have supported the takedown of these Confederate flags, statues and other monuments. It is the right and necessary thing to do.
1. It's not that members of Confederate veterans' organizations are "misunderstood"; it's that they *willfully ignore* the validity of the reasons for taking that flag down.
2. The reasons for taking down this flag shouldn't be personal (the Citadel), or religious (I do believe most who espoused slavery in this country were Christians, no? Mr. Gunn and others, please, drop the religious aspect of it.) This flag represents the deliberate abrogation of human rights.
3. Those of you who want to fly that flag, do so at your home, so the rest of us know your stance from the comfortable distance of the road.
4. Ben Jones, your grandpappy believed in a system that did MUCH worse than insulting and demeaning human beings. Grandpappy's politics MUST be cleansed from our national culture.
5. What happened in Charleston was not "irrational." STOP SAYING THAT. Such willful ignorance and misdirection is unconscionable. Roof was not "evil on his own."
6. Bravo and thanks to all companies, politicians and citizens who have supported the takedown of these Confederate flags, statues and other monuments. It is the right and necessary thing to do.
9
Why doesn't Wal-Mart stop selling guns and bullets? That would be real progress!
2
What do they represent to you that you don't like?
Defenders of the Lost Cause defend the public flying of their flag because it's all they've got. The wealth, the economic success, the great houses of the South were based upon one thing - the enslavement of their fellow man. Once that was lost, the South collapsed like a pricked bubble because there was nothing else left to sustain it.
Those who talk glowingly today about Southern chivalry and Southern honour, about the Ante-Bellum era, those who weep for the lost grandeur of the South, are little different from the ageing grandchildren of the senior Nazis who secretly still come together commemorate the glory days of the Third Reich. Or to those who nostalgically raise a toast to Stalin and Lenin, to Mussolini and to Franco.
I grew up with many such folks. Over time, I have learned to recognise them and to call them what they are. They are not conservatives. Rather, they are first and foremost fascists, who will believe to their dying day in the supremacy over reason and over science of the iron fist in the velvet glove, and who believe that someone with a white skin, whatever their faults, must be inherently superior to a human with a black one whatever their merits.
Those who talk glowingly today about Southern chivalry and Southern honour, about the Ante-Bellum era, those who weep for the lost grandeur of the South, are little different from the ageing grandchildren of the senior Nazis who secretly still come together commemorate the glory days of the Third Reich. Or to those who nostalgically raise a toast to Stalin and Lenin, to Mussolini and to Franco.
I grew up with many such folks. Over time, I have learned to recognise them and to call them what they are. They are not conservatives. Rather, they are first and foremost fascists, who will believe to their dying day in the supremacy over reason and over science of the iron fist in the velvet glove, and who believe that someone with a white skin, whatever their faults, must be inherently superior to a human with a black one whatever their merits.
10
I have started texting Lindsey Graham, Nikki Haley & Tim Scott for taking the first step in healing old wounds. It is time to put the past behind us and unite this country. What better way to honor innocent victims to ignorant racist terrorism?
1
This is "one nation", not two. Those of you that cannot accept that need to look for another place to live. There is no one keeping you in this country, let me please be the first to ask you to leave or the last to ask you to pledge your allegiance to the "United States of America".
3
We're not going far enough with this issue, people. It should be a crime to even own a Confederate flag. Punishable by hanging, uhhh, wait too close to lynching. Ok, let's get rid of all rope, since that too can be a symbol. Why we're at it, let's go ahead and destroy all books, tv shows, movies, (GWTW) and all public reference to that period in time. Great-great-great-grandad was a Confederate?? Ohh, you can't live here, shop here, eat here… What goes around, comes around, folks.
2
Tim Wise says it better than I ever could:
http://www.timwise.org/2015/06/heritage-of-hate-dylann-roof-white-suprem...
http://www.timwise.org/2015/06/heritage-of-hate-dylann-roof-white-suprem...
3
People of the South were U.S. citizens for many years before the civil war and ever since it ended. Why the emphasis on those 4 years of rebellion and loss? It stokes resentment in the hearts of white southerners, disgust and fear in black southerners and bemusement in northerners - especially those families whose folks immigrated to this country after the war.
I lived in Texas for 10 years and spent a lot of time in Virgina, Georgia and North Carolina. I found that most CSA battle flags were displayed by angry youth in ridiculously large and threatening trucks. To be honest, I felt very uncomfortable in the company of such young men - especially if they displayed that flag. I'm white. I can only imagine the dread that fills the hearts of black folk in the company of such men.
I see no harm in flying the CSA battle flag in graveyards where the honored Southern soldiers and sailors are interred. That is truly a beautiful thing. I just don't agree that it should fly or be displayed in every available public space or flag south of the Mason-Dixon line. It may be a point of pride for those who lost kin in the war, but it's a symbol of persecution a large portion of the population of the South - American blacks.
I lived in Texas for 10 years and spent a lot of time in Virgina, Georgia and North Carolina. I found that most CSA battle flags were displayed by angry youth in ridiculously large and threatening trucks. To be honest, I felt very uncomfortable in the company of such young men - especially if they displayed that flag. I'm white. I can only imagine the dread that fills the hearts of black folk in the company of such men.
I see no harm in flying the CSA battle flag in graveyards where the honored Southern soldiers and sailors are interred. That is truly a beautiful thing. I just don't agree that it should fly or be displayed in every available public space or flag south of the Mason-Dixon line. It may be a point of pride for those who lost kin in the war, but it's a symbol of persecution a large portion of the population of the South - American blacks.
22
The National Parks, especially the Civil War battlefield parks in the South, sell in their gift shops much Confederate memorabilia, including Battle Flags and other merchandize with the Confederate flag imprinted on it. Has the National Park Service decided to remove all this offensive stuff from the shelves of their shops? I have not heard this discussed in any of the coverage of this issue so far.
4
The tidal wave of calls to remove the Confederate battle flag after the symbol was displayed in photos of the alleged assailant Mr. Roof may be the begining of a reexamination of race in America. A symbol can mean different things to different people. The symbol of the Confederacy's seccession and attack upon the Constitution and the principles of federal governance should not be flying next to the flag of the United States.
Removal of the Confederate battle flag isn't enough if the remnants of colossal hubris, racial superiority and religious hypocricy are not excised from the America as well. It was these and other mental and emotional maladjustments which acted like a dormant virulent virus within the symbol of the Confederate flag that infected the mind of Mr. Roof and incited racial hatred and depraved indifference for the rights and lives of citizens of color over a century later.
While Mr. Roof's alleged hate crimes are his alone, he is not alone in being infected and a carrier of this virulent and deadly mental disease embedded in the symbol of the Confederacy. We have recently witnessed the tragic actions of the infected wearing police uniforms or sitting in grand juries tacity justifying the murder of citizens of color in locations far removed from Charleston and the south.
America as a whole not just the south should honor the tragic deaths of nine citizens with a pledge that the disease of racial hatred, not just a symbol will be taken down from its soul.
Removal of the Confederate battle flag isn't enough if the remnants of colossal hubris, racial superiority and religious hypocricy are not excised from the America as well. It was these and other mental and emotional maladjustments which acted like a dormant virulent virus within the symbol of the Confederate flag that infected the mind of Mr. Roof and incited racial hatred and depraved indifference for the rights and lives of citizens of color over a century later.
While Mr. Roof's alleged hate crimes are his alone, he is not alone in being infected and a carrier of this virulent and deadly mental disease embedded in the symbol of the Confederacy. We have recently witnessed the tragic actions of the infected wearing police uniforms or sitting in grand juries tacity justifying the murder of citizens of color in locations far removed from Charleston and the south.
America as a whole not just the south should honor the tragic deaths of nine citizens with a pledge that the disease of racial hatred, not just a symbol will be taken down from its soul.
2
Flags are powerful symbols. Some are more powerful than others. In the US, most of us will see the Stars and Stripes or the Stars and Bars at a glance and have an immediate recognition of what that means to us. The place where the flag flies quickly gives another recognition of how important that flag is. When we see flags at public places, there is even more recognition of what that flag means to the people who fly it.
I believe that for most Americans the Confederate flag has connotations that are negative because it reminds all of us that it marks a nadir in the history of our nation where some went to fight to end slavery and others went to fight to save it. I also think, that in the context of their times, those who fought truly believed that they were right, on both sides.
Thank goodness that times have changed.
Today, people's attitudes are, for the most part, very different from what they were 150 years ago. For most of us, slavery is an unspeakable, evil practice that has no place in our world.
For some, the battles are not over. Racism still exists despite the huge progress that has been made. However, it is our duty now to put slavery "in a museum," and that includes the flag, the symbol of what was wrong in our world back then and whose effects still linger so many years later.
Making this choice will not end racism, but it is another symbol, reminding us that government at any level should not lionize a symbol of the fight to preserve it.
I believe that for most Americans the Confederate flag has connotations that are negative because it reminds all of us that it marks a nadir in the history of our nation where some went to fight to end slavery and others went to fight to save it. I also think, that in the context of their times, those who fought truly believed that they were right, on both sides.
Thank goodness that times have changed.
Today, people's attitudes are, for the most part, very different from what they were 150 years ago. For most of us, slavery is an unspeakable, evil practice that has no place in our world.
For some, the battles are not over. Racism still exists despite the huge progress that has been made. However, it is our duty now to put slavery "in a museum," and that includes the flag, the symbol of what was wrong in our world back then and whose effects still linger so many years later.
Making this choice will not end racism, but it is another symbol, reminding us that government at any level should not lionize a symbol of the fight to preserve it.
2
I think the men and women who who feel so aggrieved by the calls to banish their precious flag from public spaces, should realize that their ancestors have already gotten much underserved consideration (in my opinion) by the fact that these people were not executed as criminals. The sort of justice meted out to their human property.
4
I, Like most Americans agree that the confederate battle flag should be removed from the state houses, rotundas, etc... Its a rare display of bi-partisanship that we should be embracing. And while the importance of removing the flag is relatively minor when compared with other big national issues, this asccomplishment is no mean feat.
Unfortunatelty, there are some on the left who who are ouraged that this doesn't lead to changes on other fiercely debated policy issues like gun control, taxes, and poverty.
Despite this new consensus on this previously divisive issue (especially for southern whites) our country still has two major parties with different policy prescritptions. So lets appreciate the common ground we found on this issue, and not makie unrealistic demands that the republican party embrace the democratic platform.
Unfortunatelty, there are some on the left who who are ouraged that this doesn't lead to changes on other fiercely debated policy issues like gun control, taxes, and poverty.
Despite this new consensus on this previously divisive issue (especially for southern whites) our country still has two major parties with different policy prescritptions. So lets appreciate the common ground we found on this issue, and not makie unrealistic demands that the republican party embrace the democratic platform.
The Confederate Flag represents a belief in the righteousness of the enslavement of black people. Anyone who defends flying this flag is a fool, a racist, or both.
Don Francis
Portland, Oregon
Don Francis
Portland, Oregon
5
I'm appalled to read the comments in this article attributed to backwards Republicans, including the "Dukes of Hazzard" actor who affiliates himself with a clearly racist organization. He may revere what his "grandpappy" stood for, but that's no excuse for his own racism and bigotry. Our history as a country is exactly what it is, and that flag symbolizes a disgraceful chapter in our early evolution in the United States. That flag stands for treason, pure and simple.
The exceedingly bright spot yesterday was the speech given on the Floor in South Carolina by the son of one of the biggest segregationists of the 20th Century in America. I'm proud of Rep. Thurmond for escaping the putrid upbringing he must have experienced as the son of Strom Thurmond.
The exceedingly bright spot yesterday was the speech given on the Floor in South Carolina by the son of one of the biggest segregationists of the 20th Century in America. I'm proud of Rep. Thurmond for escaping the putrid upbringing he must have experienced as the son of Strom Thurmond.
28
I'm a half-breed. My mom was from Vermont, my dad from Virginia. They got along quite well, thank you, otherwise I wouldn't be here. I am neither northern or southern.
The battle flag must go. Years ago, my small hometown resolved the issue without even knowing it was one: The Confederate portion of the town cemetery flies the Confederate national flag, which looks so much like the U.S. flag, inherently ignorant racists don't even know the difference.
Nevertheless, history has been rewritten by both sides. After the Civil War, for example, textbooks were rewritten to excise mention of Jamestown, Va., as the first permanent English settlement, in favor of Plymouth, Mass. Union General David Hunter's troops torched homes and poured kerosene on foodstuffs in this small town to starve civilians. Confederate General Jubal Early retaliated in Chambersburg, Pa., was declared a war criminal and exiled. Many educated southerners object to the canonization of Abraham Lincoln, whose motives were clearly political rather than humanitarian. Please read "Lincoln and the Power of The Press" by Harold Holzer. From a NYT review: "Holzer is a respected and influential Lincoln scholar who does not come to bury Lincoln ... but to wonder how a man could swim so well through the sewer and come out (relatively) clean."
In short, hypocrisy, not hated, is the issue for many southerners.
The battle flag must go. Years ago, my small hometown resolved the issue without even knowing it was one: The Confederate portion of the town cemetery flies the Confederate national flag, which looks so much like the U.S. flag, inherently ignorant racists don't even know the difference.
Nevertheless, history has been rewritten by both sides. After the Civil War, for example, textbooks were rewritten to excise mention of Jamestown, Va., as the first permanent English settlement, in favor of Plymouth, Mass. Union General David Hunter's troops torched homes and poured kerosene on foodstuffs in this small town to starve civilians. Confederate General Jubal Early retaliated in Chambersburg, Pa., was declared a war criminal and exiled. Many educated southerners object to the canonization of Abraham Lincoln, whose motives were clearly political rather than humanitarian. Please read "Lincoln and the Power of The Press" by Harold Holzer. From a NYT review: "Holzer is a respected and influential Lincoln scholar who does not come to bury Lincoln ... but to wonder how a man could swim so well through the sewer and come out (relatively) clean."
In short, hypocrisy, not hated, is the issue for many southerners.
1
For many white southerns, the meaning of the flag has changed. To them, it simply represents pride in where they come from, and a love of the south. But these southerns need to understand that the meaning of the confederate flag hasn't changed for black southerners. To them it still represents a long a terrible history of hatred and oppression of black people in the south. This should be enough to make southern whites (who are not racist) want to discard the flag.
The swastika was once a symbol of peace in Hinduism. But you won't find any Hindus wearing a swastika in Europe and trying to insist that it means something different to them.
The swastika was once a symbol of peace in Hinduism. But you won't find any Hindus wearing a swastika in Europe and trying to insist that it means something different to them.
7
Fundamental causes of the War between the States r badly understood by the public.Emotional calls for lowering the flag come, by and large, from those who could not name the 11 states of the CSA, and r unable to distinguish between primary and secondary causes of the conflict. Slavery was a decadent institution by the time the war broke out, and the abolition thereof was not President Lincoln's preoccupation. His priority was the preservation of the Union, and he and was willing to tolerate slavery in states where it existed, but opposed its expansion. The south had a valid argument: Since they had joined he Union voluntarily; they claimed the sovereign right to withdraw. The legality of their argument was never tested in the courts, but setttled on the battlefield. Moreover, the south, due to the protectionist policies of northern states, was kept from selling its cotton to foreign nations at a fair market price.a major economic cause of the war.I call for an intellectual debate involving experts on southern, regional history--Thomas Sowell and Shelby Foote are jut two examples--to inform us on the subject of the flag and the war.Those who exploit the issue for political reasons, and their numbers r legion, should refrain from making emotional calls for its removal until they have proven that they know what they r talking about.No offense intended, but let the decision re the Confederate flag in S.C.be the result of an intelligent debate, not demagoguery.
As far as the late great writer Shelby Foote is concerned, there is no debate. He stated many times in interviews before his death that the South's desire to preserve the institution of slavery was the primary cause of the Civil War.
2
This is quite a lot of revisionist history. Essentially all of the documents about secession are about the right to own human beings as property in perpetuity. I've lived in the South for many years and am a historian.
1
Would we allow the public display of any other traitorous flags in any of our State Capitols? Why should this one be an exception? We would never tolerate the public display of the flags of the Third Reich, the Islamic State, North Korea, or others of that ilk on the grounds of any State Capitol!!
Here is a suggestion for the Governor and State Legislature of South Carolina: If you want to honor the military heritage of South Carolinians, replace that flag with the following five flags, those of the U.S. Army, the U.S. Navy, the U.S. Marine Corps, the U.S. Air Force and the U.S. Coast Guard. South Carolinians, not to mention citizens of the other 49 states, proudly serve their country as members of those services, whose flags merit public display on the grounds of any State Capitol!
Here is a suggestion for the Governor and State Legislature of South Carolina: If you want to honor the military heritage of South Carolinians, replace that flag with the following five flags, those of the U.S. Army, the U.S. Navy, the U.S. Marine Corps, the U.S. Air Force and the U.S. Coast Guard. South Carolinians, not to mention citizens of the other 49 states, proudly serve their country as members of those services, whose flags merit public display on the grounds of any State Capitol!
4
The leaders of the Confederacy were most probably guilty of treason and were let off very lightly. It is high time that all things relating to the confederacy should be reclassified to the same category as Naziism and the symbols treated legally accordingly. No more "healing" of the misguided southerners is needed and a national crackdown on treasonous acts and the historical treatment of the criminal "heros" that committed them is highly in order.
8
My disgust with that Confederate Flag is what it perpetuated for generations: disrespect for men and women who fought under the Stars and Stripes, were killed or maimed all to continue the freedoms we all enjoy.
Unwittingly, the red states have proven one thing all too clearly. They NEVER wanted to be part of the USA. They were still operating under a Confederacy. Which begs one question: Why do they need Yankee tax dollars?
Once again, these red states take more in federal tax subsidies than they pay. Once again, the "Yankee" states are paying our own state taxes and that of Confederate states who hoodwinked all of us into believing they were all Americans under one flag.
By their thinking, all of us in the Revolutionary War states should still act as Colonials under a Revolutionary War flag. Yet, we are paying dearly to allow a bunch of red state segregationist bigots to live off our hard earned tax dollars.
If they are a Confederacy, perhaps, it's time to cut off all Yankee tax revenues?
Unwittingly, the red states have proven one thing all too clearly. They NEVER wanted to be part of the USA. They were still operating under a Confederacy. Which begs one question: Why do they need Yankee tax dollars?
Once again, these red states take more in federal tax subsidies than they pay. Once again, the "Yankee" states are paying our own state taxes and that of Confederate states who hoodwinked all of us into believing they were all Americans under one flag.
By their thinking, all of us in the Revolutionary War states should still act as Colonials under a Revolutionary War flag. Yet, we are paying dearly to allow a bunch of red state segregationist bigots to live off our hard earned tax dollars.
If they are a Confederacy, perhaps, it's time to cut off all Yankee tax revenues?
9
Lots of talk about "pride"coming from Confederate flag enthusiasts, as if it we're a saving grace, rather than the catalyst for prejudice, and racial murder. Talk about tone deaf.
6
Would that Governor Haley and others would move so expeditiously on gun control.
3
After decades of debate over whether the Confederate battle flag is a proud symbol of regional heritage or a shameful emblem of our country's most grievous sins, the argument may finally be nearing an end.
South Carolina is leading the way for other states, as it considers removing the flag from its capitol grounds in the wake of the terrible racial hate crime.
The flag was long considered politically sacrosanct in the South, at least among conservative whites. It now appears that a rush is on to banish it, along with other images that evoke the Confederacy and sow racial divisiveness.
It's about time. After all, the South lost the Civil War 150 years ago.
Too bad it took the killings of 9 innocent people to move people to come to this decision. A lot of innocent people were also killed in the last 150 years because of such symbols of hate - by hangings, beatings, blowing up churches, fire-bombing and burning homes.
T Well, better late than never.
Take down that Confederate battle flag, quit selling it and remove it forever from public display. Hang it - if you must - in a museum - but in a room far away and out-of-sight.
South Carolina is leading the way for other states, as it considers removing the flag from its capitol grounds in the wake of the terrible racial hate crime.
The flag was long considered politically sacrosanct in the South, at least among conservative whites. It now appears that a rush is on to banish it, along with other images that evoke the Confederacy and sow racial divisiveness.
It's about time. After all, the South lost the Civil War 150 years ago.
Too bad it took the killings of 9 innocent people to move people to come to this decision. A lot of innocent people were also killed in the last 150 years because of such symbols of hate - by hangings, beatings, blowing up churches, fire-bombing and burning homes.
T Well, better late than never.
Take down that Confederate battle flag, quit selling it and remove it forever from public display. Hang it - if you must - in a museum - but in a room far away and out-of-sight.
6
The obvious issue here is, or ought to be, easy access to guns, the sole purpose of which is to kill or maim. Finally, let's get our priorities straight and tackle the real problem which is that guns kill too many people in this country on a daily basis.
As for the confederate flag, when in the long history of warfare, has the losing side been allowed to keep and display the battle flags symbolizing the cause for which it fought? When Lincoln instructed his generals to "let them down easy" he meant southern soldiers could keep their horses and muskets, not their battle flags for display at some later date. The war undertaken by the south against the legitimate authority of the United States was a civil insurrection; the confederate flag is a symbol of what many of us consider an act of treason.
As for the confederate flag, when in the long history of warfare, has the losing side been allowed to keep and display the battle flags symbolizing the cause for which it fought? When Lincoln instructed his generals to "let them down easy" he meant southern soldiers could keep their horses and muskets, not their battle flags for display at some later date. The war undertaken by the south against the legitimate authority of the United States was a civil insurrection; the confederate flag is a symbol of what many of us consider an act of treason.
2
What other nation allows rebels, traitors and losers of a civil war in such high regard as to allow their heroes and symbols to be on public display superseding the legitimate government that suppressed the revolt? Please tell me
5
Well, I can't believe you would say that about people in modern day. It's just wrong. What do they call classifying an entire people for the actions of one again?
This flag is a relic of a 4 year bloody battle that took place 150 years ago in a divide about slavery and states rights.
It's taken 150 years to have the movement to take it down on public buildings is a statement to our commitment to racism.
If some PBR swilling in nutball wants to have one in their house or garage while cleaning their guns and shouting out the N word then no law will change their primitive nationalism any time soon.
Nonetheless we as a nation have yet to adopt freedom for all. Perhaps it will take 100s of years to actually implement democracy.
It's not just a flag but a strong symbol of entrenched racial divide and the individual right to be a bigoted moron. You can't legislate stupidity away.
It's taken 150 years to have the movement to take it down on public buildings is a statement to our commitment to racism.
If some PBR swilling in nutball wants to have one in their house or garage while cleaning their guns and shouting out the N word then no law will change their primitive nationalism any time soon.
Nonetheless we as a nation have yet to adopt freedom for all. Perhaps it will take 100s of years to actually implement democracy.
It's not just a flag but a strong symbol of entrenched racial divide and the individual right to be a bigoted moron. You can't legislate stupidity away.
1
This is the "United" states of America. Fly that flag. We have states rights, fly your state flag, on your state house. Do not fly the flag of those who would rather see you dead. Stop the whining and do the right, honorable thing. One unique nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all.
1
It has bothered me for years that the South is pockmarked -- and I use that word deliberately -- with statues of Confederate soldiers. They were put there in the 1870s through the fundraising efforts of the Daughters of the Confederacy.
Modern Germany is not covered with statues depicting the soldiers of the Third Reich. That would be the equivalent of those Confederate statues.
Frankly, I am amazed at how quickly this is happening. I wish it would happen with guns too.
Modern Germany is not covered with statues depicting the soldiers of the Third Reich. That would be the equivalent of those Confederate statues.
Frankly, I am amazed at how quickly this is happening. I wish it would happen with guns too.
31
Republican candidates' inability to come out strongly against hate symbols shows that they are wooing the racist vote. Does America need a president who is interested in catering to racists?
21
Every single Republican president since Richard Nixon has catered to the racists. This was Kevin Phillips' "Southern Strategy," so blatantly fleshed out by Lee Atwater. Why do you think George Bush I harped on Willie Horton? Why did Ronald Reagan begin his campaign in the town (or close to it) where the three Civil Rights workers were murdered? Why did Jeb Bush disinfrancise black voters in Florida?
They can keep the flag if they agree to meaningful gun control.
1
The focus on the flag is misdirection. The real target must be guns. Gun control NOW!
1
I disagree with Tate Reeves.The various Confederate flags are linked were,during the Confederacy's existence,flown in defense of that violence that was slavery;they were flown in battle ,during a war that killed more than 600,000 Americans.Few emblems are as closely linked to violence as are the stars and bars.And in this case Reeves and other defenders of continuing to defend the display on tax funded property the flags,appear to be out of touch with a changing South,because a large proportion of Southerners protesting against their continued display are white southerners.And when the son of Strom Thurman calls for their removal,Reeves,etc., have already lost their fight.
1
The confederate flag should have stopped flying after the South lost the Civil War. Without a doubt, it is a symbol of racism and white supremacy. I've often wondered why, in our country, we are always reactive instead of proactive? And this, again, is an example of just that. Why did nine people have to die before we acknowledged that flying that flag everywhere in the South encourages the mindset we were trying to eliminate by fighting the Civil War?
2
How is it possible to tackle the racism which still permeates American culture when there are people out there who still have a problem with the removal of the Confederate flag.
Yes, the question's rhetorical.
DD
Manhattan
Yes, the question's rhetorical.
DD
Manhattan
3
What a dumb focus when it comes to the prejudice of so many Americans. Those who want the flags removed are either ignorant or proven hypocrites. If they really wanted to point their fingers at the real problem from the past they would go to the churches which supported segregation for so many generations. If the flag from the past is to be challenged then so must the religious groups which supported not only slavery but also segregation. If properly addressed every white based church in the south older than 50 years should be removed either though sales to non-religion individuals or be torn down. Now how many of those who want the flags removed are willing to properly address the real issue here?
Let's go all the way and declare as a society that the confederacy represents an evil institution of slavery and expunge all of its symbols from public use. Of course we can't control private use of those symbols but they will be reserved for those redneck outliers driving pick up trucks with rebel flags. Take down the statues at the courthouses across the south.
1
The intolerance of the left is indeed spreading. They have become a cult-like enterprise. They feverishly work to classify ALL aspects of life by race, gender, sexual preference, and class. They work to stamp out everything they consider racist or offensive. Racism and offensiveness now include everything that dares to question or rebut their cause. Its coming to your church, your business, your wallet, your health care, your education, indeed your very thoughts. What will they find offensive next? Can fair-minded American people please get a leader...ASAP?
1
Racism using the Confederate Battle Flag as its symbol just came to a church and killed 9 people. Explain that away. I read the comments in this newspaper every day, and I am continually impressed by the intelligence and breadth of knowledge expressed by the majority of commentators. I take the time to read the comments precisely to consider alternative points of view. I recommend that you review the numerous well reasoned arguments put forth by your fellow citizens for removing this symbol of intolerance. As far as I am concerned fair-minded American people elected a leader. Small minded people have spent the last 7 years lying about and disrespecting him.
1
My ancestors carried a flag like that one. It gave them hope and faith and strength in more than a dozen battles. When it pierced the choking gunsmoke rising above a quaint farm field in southern Maryland, when my ancestors were told that they must hold the line without ammunition in order to keep the rest of the army alive, that flag was not waving, in that moment, for the perpetuation of slavery. It was waving to remind the young men of the true virtues of duty, honor, courage, and self-sacrifice, in the face of their sternest trial. Their response: “We’ll hold here, by J.C., if we must all go to hell together!”
That flag makes me think of those men in that moment, but it does not make most people think that way.
However much I may cherish the memory of my ancestors and that flag, I must concede that another person could feel as deeply or much more so in the other direction—revolted, offended, nauseated—by the memory of their ancestors and their brutal enslavement and oppression as insured by that flag. In this case, the bad clearly outweighs the good. When such a symbol flies on public property, it waves people away from the civic engagement that we all desire. So take it down, South Carolina, and wish you had done it sooner.
That flag makes me think of those men in that moment, but it does not make most people think that way.
However much I may cherish the memory of my ancestors and that flag, I must concede that another person could feel as deeply or much more so in the other direction—revolted, offended, nauseated—by the memory of their ancestors and their brutal enslavement and oppression as insured by that flag. In this case, the bad clearly outweighs the good. When such a symbol flies on public property, it waves people away from the civic engagement that we all desire. So take it down, South Carolina, and wish you had done it sooner.
34
Mr. Smith,
I have to shake my head at your post.
Because, I have a suspicion that if your ancestors were black or morally enlightened human beings that they would ever think it is "virtuous" to defend the right of state-sponsored enslavement.
Moreover, I have to question anyone who "cherishes" the type of action you described, because I suspect that the terms that would come to mind for most people who had ancestors that fought to defend slavery would be "embarrassment" and "regret."
I have to shake my head at your post.
Because, I have a suspicion that if your ancestors were black or morally enlightened human beings that they would ever think it is "virtuous" to defend the right of state-sponsored enslavement.
Moreover, I have to question anyone who "cherishes" the type of action you described, because I suspect that the terms that would come to mind for most people who had ancestors that fought to defend slavery would be "embarrassment" and "regret."
1
The proponents of Confederate symbols continue to proclaim the mantra “Heritage not hate.” Let’s consider the cornerstone speech given in 1861 by Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederacy. “Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.” From: http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/cornerstone-speech/ . So the proponents of Confederate symbols are technically correct in the mantra “Heritage not hate.” What they truly mean is let us keep our “Heritage of White Superiority.” Why are we surprised that “monsters” embrace confederate symbols? Why are we to maintain and fund symbols of "White Superiority"? Why should a state celebrate and fund symbols that denigrate a subset of its constituents?
The First Amendment protects individuals expressing their views from governmental retribution. It does not say the government must embrace and fund every viewpoint.
Let the confederates display their symbols of white superiority on their own properties. Just stop displaying them on properties shared with others.
Certainly stop expecting taxpayers to continue unwittingly funding those symbols.
The First Amendment protects individuals expressing their views from governmental retribution. It does not say the government must embrace and fund every viewpoint.
Let the confederates display their symbols of white superiority on their own properties. Just stop displaying them on properties shared with others.
Certainly stop expecting taxpayers to continue unwittingly funding those symbols.
3
Yea, but even if the racist overtones weren't part of the issue the fact is that it is a flag of rebellion against the U.S.A and it certainly should not be allowed to fly on buildings of government whose allegiance is to the U.S.A.
To me it is a no brainer.
To me it is a no brainer.
1
This is an excellent rebuttal to the post of San Smith from Tennessee who somehow sees "virtue" in the actions of his ancestors who defended the Confederacy and their government's abhorrent belief in the inferiority of the black race.
1
It's as offensive as a state flag as a swastika would be. While an individual has aright to wear what ever he/she wants, a government should not use an emblem of oppression.
1
While I agree that the Confederate flag has no business flying over any government buildings, comparing it to the Nazi swastika flag is beyond absurd.
It seems the general idea is that abolishing racial icons like the Confederate Flag will abolish racism. If so, we need to get rid of all Robert Byrd named facilities and places in W. Virginia. He was instrumental in the KKK. Edward Kennedy and Bill Clinton named structures need to be taken down due to the racial comments they made when Obama was elected. Hillary Clinton needs to drop out of the Presidential race due to her mocking Black church-goers with her fake lingo when addressing African-Americans. The Democrat Party needs to change its name due to its sordid voting record during Civil Rights era turmoils when they backed segregation. Al Gore needs to change his last name for the same reasons due to his father's racist history. The list of liberal Democrat offenses is too long but to attain racial harmony and to kill racism, these changes need to be made.
Of course abolishing symbols of racism won't abolish racism, but to compare the symbolism of the Confederate flag to buildings dedicated to politicians like Kennedy, the Clintons, or Byrd is sophistry, pure and simple. Those buildings don't commemorate racism any more than the Confederate flag (not flown at the South Carolina capitol until 1961) is flown to commemorate the war dead.
And even allowing that some might be operating under the delusion that the Confederate flag is flown to honor the war dead, how is that different than Germans honoring their war dead?
When the dead have died fighting for a cause that is vile and repugnant, it seems to me that they are best honored by being left in peace, rather than dredged out in support of more that is vile and repugnant.
And even allowing that some might be operating under the delusion that the Confederate flag is flown to honor the war dead, how is that different than Germans honoring their war dead?
When the dead have died fighting for a cause that is vile and repugnant, it seems to me that they are best honored by being left in peace, rather than dredged out in support of more that is vile and repugnant.
1
THIS IS MY SECOND ATTEMPT TO HAVE THIS SUBMISSION POSTED. IS THERE SOME REASON David's submission is "fit to post" and my response is not???
Of course abolishing symbols of racism won't abolish racism, but to compare the symbolism of the Confederate flag to buildings dedicated to politicians like Kennedy, the Clintons, or Byrd is sophistry, pure and simple. Those buildings don't commemorate racism any more than the Confederate flag (not flown at the South Carolina capitol until 1961) is flown to commemorate the war dead.
And even allowing that some might be operating under the delusion that the Confederate flag is flown to honor the war dead, how is that different than Germans honoring their war dead?
When the dead have died fighting for a cause that is vile and repugnant, it seems to me that they are best honored by being left in peace, rather than dredged out in support of more that is vile and repugnant.
Of course abolishing symbols of racism won't abolish racism, but to compare the symbolism of the Confederate flag to buildings dedicated to politicians like Kennedy, the Clintons, or Byrd is sophistry, pure and simple. Those buildings don't commemorate racism any more than the Confederate flag (not flown at the South Carolina capitol until 1961) is flown to commemorate the war dead.
And even allowing that some might be operating under the delusion that the Confederate flag is flown to honor the war dead, how is that different than Germans honoring their war dead?
When the dead have died fighting for a cause that is vile and repugnant, it seems to me that they are best honored by being left in peace, rather than dredged out in support of more that is vile and repugnant.
1
This is long overdue! I live up north and I find the Tea Party folks find it in their best interest to fly the annoying flag right under the American flag. I don't think that is cute at all - as a matter of fact, it's time to respect our country and support it. It is offensive and demeaning! It is not cool. And it speaks volumes of your lack of integrity -
1
Dear President Obama:
The discontinuance of the production and display of the Confederate flag is a good first step in the elimination of racism in our country. You are capable of doing more.
Numerous military installations in the southern part of this nation are named for treasonous generals who led troops who killed hundreds of thousands of our countrymen in the effort to maintain the institution of slavery. For instance, there is Fort Lee and Camp Pickett in Virginia, Fort Bragg in North Carolina and Fort Jackson in South Carolina. GIs of color assigned to these posts must suffer an insult to their dignity.
You should immediately sign an Executive Order, renaming all military forts, camps, bases, etc. that honor racist traitors.
The discontinuance of the production and display of the Confederate flag is a good first step in the elimination of racism in our country. You are capable of doing more.
Numerous military installations in the southern part of this nation are named for treasonous generals who led troops who killed hundreds of thousands of our countrymen in the effort to maintain the institution of slavery. For instance, there is Fort Lee and Camp Pickett in Virginia, Fort Bragg in North Carolina and Fort Jackson in South Carolina. GIs of color assigned to these posts must suffer an insult to their dignity.
You should immediately sign an Executive Order, renaming all military forts, camps, bases, etc. that honor racist traitors.
3
Had this horrific slaughter of nine human beings at their place of worship not occured this topic wouldnt even be being discussed.
Even Senator Lindsay Graham herself said that when asked on CNN.
Even Senator Lindsay Graham herself said that when asked on CNN.
1
However odd, Lindsey Graham remains a male of our species.
What is the difference between flying the confederate flag and having some people in Germany wanting to fly the nazi flag to commemorate the lives of the people who died during WWII?
1
Wow! Comparing the Confederate flag to the Nazi swastika flag? Neither flag should be flying anywhere, but using that as a comparison is beyond comprehension.
1
No difference except that we are all against Nazi's whereas here, some of us promote and keep alive the values of what was called the Confederacy.
If anything this movement should be benefit the South itself. They need to let go of such nostalgia about the past if they want to move on and join the rest of the country. These states are our "third world" siblings, refusing to let go and grow up. They should be ashamed of the fact that they are so behind the rest of the country when it comes to education, economic development and social policies thanks to those despicable politicians they keep electing that manipulate them into thinking about "the good old days" while they continue to enrich their supporters.
2
My family has been here since early Jamestown and the Mayflower. We've much to be proud of but also have much for which to answer. Some owned slaves. Some fought with Native Americans. Some were also anti-violent, anti-war Quakers. Some fought on both sides of the Civil War, which given the nature of the cultural and economic divide between northern and southern states at the time of the American Revolution was probably inevitable. It was a tragedy of immense proportions which left horrendous scars on our society. Only 87 years after we won our independence we were torn apart by the cultural divide between North and South. Let us remember that "red states" by and large were states devastated by being the battleground of that war. Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg is the furthest north the Confederacy ever reached. To some extent, reallocation of resources by the federal government from "blue" to "red" states is a form of on-going reparations. It has now been 150 years since the Civil War but it is still being fought by a small minority of extremists against the best interests of the rest of us: to escape the illusion of racial inequality, strive against economic inequality, and found a more perfect union grounded in tolerance of private individual differences. Display of the Confederate Flag by government at any level-- municipal to state--- is counter to our best interests, but even more importantly, institutionalized discrimination rooted in Confederate politics must end.
1
While I'm in absolute agreement that this flag should not be displayed on government buildings or on license plates I'm reminded of South Park episodes where mobs of people race from place to place muttering"rabble,rabble,rabble" in some uninformed frenzy. Knee jerk reactions rarely end well.
I was thinking though,that the same folks who proudly display this symbol of misplaced pride might be the ones who criticize immigrants who display the flags of the legitimate governments in their birth countries.
I was thinking though,that the same folks who proudly display this symbol of misplaced pride might be the ones who criticize immigrants who display the flags of the legitimate governments in their birth countries.
1
Right, and the difference is those people are displaying those flags as private citizens and those flags don't represent a rebellion against government of which they are presently citizens--assuming that in your scenario these immigrants have or are on the path to become citizens of the U.S.A.
That's what I can't get over and can't believe isn't the first and foremost issue here. The Confederate flag represents armed rebellion against the U.S.A. To fly it as an citizen of the U.S.A is obvious contradiction of loyalty.
Those immigrants chose to come here and become U.S citizens displaying the flag of the nation of their birth is not such a contradiction as people can hold different loyalties--but holding loyalties that are direct contradictions of each other is just nuts and in different category altogether.
That's what I can't get over and can't believe isn't the first and foremost issue here. The Confederate flag represents armed rebellion against the U.S.A. To fly it as an citizen of the U.S.A is obvious contradiction of loyalty.
Those immigrants chose to come here and become U.S citizens displaying the flag of the nation of their birth is not such a contradiction as people can hold different loyalties--but holding loyalties that are direct contradictions of each other is just nuts and in different category altogether.
Yes, of course, take down the flag. However, I fear that the justified outcry over the flag will allow Republicans, the NRA and retailers like Walmart off the hook for the real problem, which is NO gun control in this country. "See, we did something, kthxbai"....
28
The KKK figures prominently in Indiana's history, but we don't fly its banners on the state house lawn.
3
Gov. Nikki R. Haley stuck her finger in the air to see which way the wind was blowing and reversed her position on the flag. Just a couple of days ago she that NOW was not the time to talk about removing the flag.
Get rid of her SC.
Get rid of her SC.
4
That flag represented states' rights, a gracious way of life, and traditions, but it was founded on slavery. But so was Ancient Greece and nobody is taking down Plato and Socrates. The Revolutionary War left slavery in place, but nobody is taking down Jefferson and Washington. WW1 and WW2 were wars of a segregated America. How about Lincoln? He made plenty of racist comments, why keep the Lincoln Memorial, or Lincoln in public? For that matter, the North was against slavery but was just racist. Taking down the Confederate flag, when billions are made by rappers who refresh the N-word, and the president repeats it casually, refreshing slavery and racism everytime they sing and speak, this word is a LIVING relic of racism and slavery but it is resplendent in rap, and cool. Can the politicians stop making hay out of a tragedy perpetuated by a racist terrorist? Gone with the Wind will be thrown out too, as well as demolishing the historic plantation houses...Monticello, Mount Vernon...It is impossible to do a 1984 revisionist whitewash of history. Might as well close Gettysburg and all the other battlefields including those in France...and Arlington has to go as it was the home of Robert E Lee...who was to go too...erase it all.
8
@ quartz
Spare us all this reductio ad absurdum nonsense. By 1861 slavery was recognized as anachronism in the entire civilized world. They were even abolishing serfdom in Russia. A very costly great war was fought in order to end what was (along with Jim Crow) the only case of real generalized tyranny that has ever existed in the US. No one is going erase slavery and its aftermath from US history any more than we're going to erase WW 2 but that is hardly an argument for the public endorsement of a symbol of that generalized tyranny and which is a huge affront to a large section of Americans.
Spare us all this reductio ad absurdum nonsense. By 1861 slavery was recognized as anachronism in the entire civilized world. They were even abolishing serfdom in Russia. A very costly great war was fought in order to end what was (along with Jim Crow) the only case of real generalized tyranny that has ever existed in the US. No one is going erase slavery and its aftermath from US history any more than we're going to erase WW 2 but that is hardly an argument for the public endorsement of a symbol of that generalized tyranny and which is a huge affront to a large section of Americans.
3
My reading of History is that slavery in Ancient Greece was not race based or race justified.
1
There is a huge difference between the chattel slavery of the South and the slavery of the ancient world. This is essentially a fallacy of equivocation because the word slavery means two different things here.
Most people entered Rome as slaves where they subsequently were put to work and learned the trades of their "master" becoming the process part of the family. Usually in about 10 years were given their freedom and their citizenship having by that time become Roman in attitude.
Had this been the slavery of the south we never would have had a Civil War.
Most people entered Rome as slaves where they subsequently were put to work and learned the trades of their "master" becoming the process part of the family. Usually in about 10 years were given their freedom and their citizenship having by that time become Roman in attitude.
Had this been the slavery of the south we never would have had a Civil War.
1
Yes, blame the flag. Blame this picture for killing, for hate, for inequality. Don't blame people, don't blame their stupidity, don't try to find a compromise between pro- and anti-gun people. Just point your displease to the emblem, it won't stand against you, anyway...
People need symbols. And it those symbols that keep common causes alive. Taking down the confederate flag is symbolic of a lost cause, but it is only on State grounds. How about all those that keep the symbol on their own property and are proud to show it? The debate about this particular flag is only a diversion. The flag and what it means is deeply routed in the South as is racism.
From another article in today's nytimes:
Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims: 48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center.
Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims: 48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center.
3
THE FINAL BATTLE OF THE CIVIL WAR? The fact that the Confederate flag is displayed on public buildings, including government buildings, in the South is evidence that the Civil War, as well as the battles, while having been won by the Yankees, has not convinced a certain group of citizenry that the live in the United States of America and not in the Confederated States of America. What's hypocritical about their position is that we most often hear howls of outrage about what, in the hyper-patriotic south about integrity, morality, traditional values and a gruesome litany of varied and assorted extremist claims. So, what I say is, Dump or Get Off The Pot. Take down the flag of the Confederacy and acknowledge the nation where you live!
3
Dear NYTimes,
Personally, I have no attachment whatsoever to the confederate flag. If it ceased to exist tomorrow, I wouldn’t lose a moment of sleep. Although my family is southern, we have never given a damn about brandishing any flag save the American flag. However, in reading your editorial push to “take down” the confederate flag, I am surprised at your lack of philosophical consistency. Is it really necessary for the NYTimes editorial board to meddle in the affairs of other states when the state of New York has such a troubled history of its’ own? Shouldn’t you first take inventory of what happens in your own backyard? Are you also recommending that the NY Coat of Arms be taken down? The coat of arms of New York was adopted in 1778. Slavery was alive and well in New York in 1778 and flourished in Manhattan in particular. Not to mention, the coat of arms of NY certainly doesn’t look very inclusive with only two white women depicted. Where is the Native American or black women on New York's flag?
Many would contend that your corporate headquarters at 620 Eight Avenue is the rightful property of the descendants of the Canarsee Native Americans. Are you paying them a land lease? Why is the NYTimes so fixated on the South? Doesn’t NY’s untidy past warrant a little of that fervor and attention? Perhaps, New Yorkers feel a bit better about themselves because their state merely financed the slave trade and they got out of the business a few years earlier.
Personally, I have no attachment whatsoever to the confederate flag. If it ceased to exist tomorrow, I wouldn’t lose a moment of sleep. Although my family is southern, we have never given a damn about brandishing any flag save the American flag. However, in reading your editorial push to “take down” the confederate flag, I am surprised at your lack of philosophical consistency. Is it really necessary for the NYTimes editorial board to meddle in the affairs of other states when the state of New York has such a troubled history of its’ own? Shouldn’t you first take inventory of what happens in your own backyard? Are you also recommending that the NY Coat of Arms be taken down? The coat of arms of New York was adopted in 1778. Slavery was alive and well in New York in 1778 and flourished in Manhattan in particular. Not to mention, the coat of arms of NY certainly doesn’t look very inclusive with only two white women depicted. Where is the Native American or black women on New York's flag?
Many would contend that your corporate headquarters at 620 Eight Avenue is the rightful property of the descendants of the Canarsee Native Americans. Are you paying them a land lease? Why is the NYTimes so fixated on the South? Doesn’t NY’s untidy past warrant a little of that fervor and attention? Perhaps, New Yorkers feel a bit better about themselves because their state merely financed the slave trade and they got out of the business a few years earlier.
3
New York State didn't declare war against the USA and tried secede.........
1
Lol.
Joshua
Please cite me a situation where the NYC emblem resulted in a mass murder by someone whose manifesto rants and fb photos include the images of the Confederate flag and references to it in writing.
If you can, we up here in NYC will take your specious argument under advisement.
Please cite me a situation where the NYC emblem resulted in a mass murder by someone whose manifesto rants and fb photos include the images of the Confederate flag and references to it in writing.
If you can, we up here in NYC will take your specious argument under advisement.
1
How might you feel about a flag with a swastika?
According to the Holocaust Encyclopedia: The swastika has an extensive history. It was used at least 5,000 years before Adolf Hitler designed the Nazi flag. The word swastika comes from the Sanskrit svastika, which means “good fortune” or “well-being." The motif (a hooked cross) appears to have first been used in Neolithic Eurasia, perhaps representing the movement of the sun through the sky. To this day it is a sacred symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Odinism. It is a common sight on temples or houses in India or Indonesia. Swastikas also have an ancient history in Europe, appearing on artifacts from pre-Christian European cultures.
Band-aid and blather and band-aid.
How about spreading calls to ban the guns that empower people inspired by "Confederate Emblems" to kill.
“For every problem there is a solution which is simple, clean and wrong.”
~ H.L. MENCKEN
Try "dropping" racism.
How about spreading calls to ban the guns that empower people inspired by "Confederate Emblems" to kill.
“For every problem there is a solution which is simple, clean and wrong.”
~ H.L. MENCKEN
Try "dropping" racism.
2
Yes, flying the symbol of the Confederacy should not be allowed. But more importantly, the realization that Roof did not kill with a flag, but with a gun, should be uppermost. IT'S THE GUN THAT KILLS.
4
But inspired by the flag and what it means.
To those who say that the confederate flag honors ancestors who fought valiantly in the civil war, I say, as the daughter of an officer killed in Vietnam, that the best way to honor those who fought and lost their lives for destructive and morally bankrupt causes, is to make sure that the wrongs are not repeated. For the south, this means accepting the enduring racial animus engendered by the civil war and represented by its treasonous flag and working to erase that moral stain. In the case of Vietnam, I had always hoped that the US would honor my father's sacrifice by learning from the mistakes of the misguided war. Unfortunately, the US involvement in Iraq has dissolved this hope for now, but I hope I live to see the country engage in earnest introspection about the Vietnam misadventure. Southerners have this opportunity right now and have the potential to cure a long-standing collective illness.
59
There are still believers that the holocaust is nothing more than "media hype" and that Hitler is misunderstood and under appreciated for the political wizard he was and the good he did for his nation - all to coddle namby pamby Jews. So a few got skinny and died righteously for the financial sin they committed. So, lets preserve the swastika for the historic value and the "real" value it stands for, not the inaccurate historical demonization it suffers. Likewise, I learned in Texas that American slavery is misunderstood historically, and its "too bad it had to be guvmint-overreach-abolished, when it was really the best thing for "those folks" who don't know how to take care of themselves and were so much better off being cared for by their owners." They try very hard to alter history there and make the Civil War all about whatever "states rights" are in the souther mind, but it was a horrific vileness against a disempowered kidnapped group of people period. There is not enough soap to wash some of this filth off.
5
Can any of the commenters expressing sneering condescention toward the South please explain why blacks are fleeing Northern states to live here?
2
It's time to take it down. I shouldn't have been there as long as it has. I represents something evil and wrong and should be gone. True it's part of the South's history but hopefully we have learned from that. Move it to a museum where history is kept.
1
This is all empty symbolism and a very covenient distraction from real issues: Want to help blacks? Forget about the old flag; improve housing, schools, etc.
While the president and congress enter a cabal to screw American workers with TPP, we are focusing on an inanimate piece of cloth. Silly us.
While the president and congress enter a cabal to screw American workers with TPP, we are focusing on an inanimate piece of cloth. Silly us.
4
"In Tennessee, political leaders from both parties said a bust of Nathan Bedford Forrest, a Confederate general and an early Ku Klux Klan leader, should be moved out of the State House."
So if the Confederate flag controversy hadn't erupted, the honoring of the Klan leader would've continued, business as usual, in Nashville?
So if the Confederate flag controversy hadn't erupted, the honoring of the Klan leader would've continued, business as usual, in Nashville?
3
My great "granpappy" actually fought in the war under the stars and bars, and he would be embarrassed to see it used to represent hatred and bigotry. Take it down.
4
While I am very happy the flag is coming down, I cannot help but think this was a distraction so politicians, especially the President, does not have to address issues of gun control. We have had an elementary school and church massacres-yet no action. What will it take?
4
The confederate flag issue is not a distraction. The gun issue is to come without a doubt. But at first it is important to get rid of a flag that symbolizes much more negative aspects of history. The flag belongs in a museum where families with a history of confederate soldiers can be remembered in the proper context. Today the flag is associated with anti-black, anti-government and more. In a museum it can be seen for what it was a battle flag for the Confederate army. Trying to rewrite history by flying this flag is not a good thing.
At the end of Tony Kushner's brilliant "Caroline or Change" the daughter, Emmie, of a maid, Caroline, sings about change and taking part in the removal of a racist statue in the 60s. Change comes fast and change comes slow she tells us. But change comes. I hope we are at a moment of change. Here are her words near the end of that wonderful show.
EMMIE
Just one last thing left unsaid:
Who was there when that statue fell?
Who knows where they put his head?
That ole copper nightmare man?
Who can say what happened that night at the courthouse?
I can.
I was there that night; I saw,
I watched it topple like a tree.
We were scared to death to break the law!
Scared we'd fail, scared of jail.
But still we stayed?
And I said
statue, statue,
you are through!
Statue answer: well who are you?
I said: Evil, you got to go!
Evil answer: who says so?
I say
Emmie
Emmie Thibodeaux!
I'm the daughter of a maid,
in her uniform, crisp and clean!
Nothing can ever make me afraid!
you can't hold on, you nightmare men,
your time is past now on your way
get gone and never come again!
For change come fast and change come slow,
but
everything changes!
And you got to go!
Shout, shout, Devil on out!
I think we are here again, Caroline!
EMMIE
Just one last thing left unsaid:
Who was there when that statue fell?
Who knows where they put his head?
That ole copper nightmare man?
Who can say what happened that night at the courthouse?
I can.
I was there that night; I saw,
I watched it topple like a tree.
We were scared to death to break the law!
Scared we'd fail, scared of jail.
But still we stayed?
And I said
statue, statue,
you are through!
Statue answer: well who are you?
I said: Evil, you got to go!
Evil answer: who says so?
I say
Emmie
Emmie Thibodeaux!
I'm the daughter of a maid,
in her uniform, crisp and clean!
Nothing can ever make me afraid!
you can't hold on, you nightmare men,
your time is past now on your way
get gone and never come again!
For change come fast and change come slow,
but
everything changes!
And you got to go!
Shout, shout, Devil on out!
I think we are here again, Caroline!
2
The 9 murdered in AME Church in Charleston S. C. deserve justice. The constant hate speech by those like Fox News, the Republican Presidential candidates and the Republican Governors advocating open carry gun laws; should be indicted as accessories to murder. Racism advocated through voter suppression and intimidation are all acts that can and have and has affected this senseless murder Fox News is the worst offender of this. Take Fox Fake News broadcast license away! Getting rid of the flag is not enough,
6
Fox News is the only station that reports the truth. Everyone else attempts to hide reality. If they didn't politicians like Obama and Hilary couldn't get elected. All the other stations are garbage. Sorry if the truth offends you, but I wouldn't expect anything else from those of your purported ilk. And frankly why is Fox News the most widely watched cable network? Because those who do watch are not afraid of truth and aren't trying to get a "sugar coated" version. Have a nice life in your ivory tower world.
1
The fringe right wing bloggosphere is currently awash with Brightbart-meme faux-confrontations of white people having Sunday brunch being harassed by protestors and stories that Gold's Gym (as opposed to the innumerable outlets for Confederate Flag symbol merchandise) is being 'hassled.' This is part and parcel of the Rush Limbaugh narrative of fabricated white persecution that erupts when 'random lone wolf' incidents target and kill innocent people and the killer is a white person inspired by Klan or Koch brother inspired rhetoric or what all the money in the world can buy in terms of web-sites and elections through mass-cultural manipulation. This is the type of Faux News designed particularly for those who are predisposed to believe anything that reinforces a world-view that's delusional persecution. It is a dangerous and ingenuous game that the Koch brothers have been fueling for decades, and their father, co-founder of the John Birch Society did before them. Perhaps it's time for the Kochs to put their money where their mouth isn't and contribute loudly and spectacularly to an organization that promotes racial tolerance and equality.
12
What would we think if a German flew a Nazi flag and claimed they were honoring their ancestors?
4
Ask yourself this question: If Dylann Storm Roof was named ''Mohammad Akbar Salim'' and had shot 9 whites in a church service to ''send a message to America'' would the police have stopped off at Burger King and bought him a meal after arresting him? Would you car be more likely to be pulled over with a rebel flag or Black Panther Party Flag?
Now on eBay:
REBEL FLAGS
REBEL FLAG ITEMS
CONFEDERATE CSA FLAGS
ALL STICKERS AND DECALS
LEATHER WALLETS
CONFEDERATE CAR FLAGS
SUNGLASSES AND NECK STRAPS
SHOPPING/BEACH BAGS
SHOWER CURTAINS
600 D CONFEDERATE FLAGS
DOO RAG ,BANDANAS,SKULL CAPS
GADSDEN FLAGS
USA FLAGS
GADSDEN T SHIRTS
REBEL FLIP FLOPS
PIRATE FLAGS AND OTHER ITEMS
SPRING ASIST & SURVIVAL KNIVES
REBEL FLAG KNIVES
HATS AND CAPS
POW MIA ITEMS AND FLAGS
REBEL JEWERY RINGS,NECKLACES
MENS NECK TIES
SHOWER CURTAINS REBEL&GADSDEN
BLANKETS AND THROWS
REBEL WRIST WATCH
FLIP FLOPS AND WATER SHOES
Yes, those are Confederate Flip Flops and Water Shoes, Shower Curtains, Blankets and Throws. Among the 621 variations of Confederate Flags available, the 'Smiley Face Flag' - ''If this flag offends you it made my day.''
Our nation is way overdue for a tsunami of revulsion and backlash against haters who function under the social delusion that embrace of a traitorous, racist, lost-cause will either be tolerated by others, or promote their beliefs. High time to shut it down.
Now on eBay:
REBEL FLAGS
REBEL FLAG ITEMS
CONFEDERATE CSA FLAGS
ALL STICKERS AND DECALS
LEATHER WALLETS
CONFEDERATE CAR FLAGS
SUNGLASSES AND NECK STRAPS
SHOPPING/BEACH BAGS
SHOWER CURTAINS
600 D CONFEDERATE FLAGS
DOO RAG ,BANDANAS,SKULL CAPS
GADSDEN FLAGS
USA FLAGS
GADSDEN T SHIRTS
REBEL FLIP FLOPS
PIRATE FLAGS AND OTHER ITEMS
SPRING ASIST & SURVIVAL KNIVES
REBEL FLAG KNIVES
HATS AND CAPS
POW MIA ITEMS AND FLAGS
REBEL JEWERY RINGS,NECKLACES
MENS NECK TIES
SHOWER CURTAINS REBEL&GADSDEN
BLANKETS AND THROWS
REBEL WRIST WATCH
FLIP FLOPS AND WATER SHOES
Yes, those are Confederate Flip Flops and Water Shoes, Shower Curtains, Blankets and Throws. Among the 621 variations of Confederate Flags available, the 'Smiley Face Flag' - ''If this flag offends you it made my day.''
Our nation is way overdue for a tsunami of revulsion and backlash against haters who function under the social delusion that embrace of a traitorous, racist, lost-cause will either be tolerated by others, or promote their beliefs. High time to shut it down.
7
Saw a campaign button...Clinton Gore 1992.
Guess what the inscription was on? Yep, Bill and Albert are Rebels too!
Guess what the inscription was on? Yep, Bill and Albert are Rebels too!
this is nothing but politics and pc'ers trying to continue to destroy southern history. the majority folding to the minority and no politician with the nerve to fight it.
1
More like finally the momentum of the population of the USA is sick and tired of the racism this symbol stands for, divisiveness and white supremacy.
The Republican poltians are jumping on the bandwagon even if they prefer to support the bigots who vote for them.
The Republican poltians are jumping on the bandwagon even if they prefer to support the bigots who vote for them.
It's very difficult for people to say that their ancestors were wrong. The Civil War was misnamed as it wasn't a war but a rebellion, an insurrection. The slave owners (a small majority) were successful in convincing the general population (mostly not slave owners) that their fight was over states' rights. That the Yankees were coming to destroy their homes.
To enslave a entire group of people one must degrade them into subhuman forms. Even the Supreme Court deemed that slaves were property, not human beings with rights. This attitude persisted after Reconstruction as well. The Jim Crow laws are evidence of that. And more recently for those who are just entering the ranks of senior citizens we can remember how the South resisted Civil Rights.
Think of all those who saluted the flag of the U.S. and recited the pledge, paying no attention to the last six words.
To enslave a entire group of people one must degrade them into subhuman forms. Even the Supreme Court deemed that slaves were property, not human beings with rights. This attitude persisted after Reconstruction as well. The Jim Crow laws are evidence of that. And more recently for those who are just entering the ranks of senior citizens we can remember how the South resisted Civil Rights.
Think of all those who saluted the flag of the U.S. and recited the pledge, paying no attention to the last six words.
38
It's fine with me to remove the Confederate flag from government buildings and for companies to prohibit products with that symbol on their shelves. . .but removing a symbol will not change the heart of a person who feels superior to another. If it were that easy, desegregation would have produced amazing results over the past 60 years. There is a culture in this country, not just the South, that is founded on superiority of the white man. If you doubt that, look back at the insults that have been leveled at our President over the past seven years. It has been shameful.
I agree with others that this issue deflects attention from the issues of gun violence, healthcare, and the economic conditions of the middle class in this country. Our politicians will answer a public outcry for no more Confederate flag symbols, that's easy to do, but they will ignore the issue that brought this to the forefront. . . gun control. Don't be placated by this!
I agree with others that this issue deflects attention from the issues of gun violence, healthcare, and the economic conditions of the middle class in this country. Our politicians will answer a public outcry for no more Confederate flag symbols, that's easy to do, but they will ignore the issue that brought this to the forefront. . . gun control. Don't be placated by this!
43
"removing a symbol will not change the heart of a person who feels superior to another."..... I believe there is a often a mob mentality. It has been my observation that people collectively in a group are able to believe and do things that they would not occur to them as individuals. Racists are not heavy thinkers to begin with, and if they are not surrounded by other like minded people and symbols to reinforce their aberrant beliefs, they and their impact on society will fade away.
In our capitalist society, I'm sure some enterprising individual will fill that niche market.
That symbol of hate is going nowhere.
But let's get it off government "for the people, by the people" official property.
That symbol of hate is going nowhere.
But let's get it off government "for the people, by the people" official property.
The issue of the Confederate flag is a real, important and vital discussion that needs to be had, no doubt about that. For me there are two things at play - the first is the Confederate flag, and the enormous amount of pain, suffering and hardship it represents for too many American citizens. The second is, again, guns in America. Why cannot I not help but think that some, perhaps disingenuous, politicians are all too happy to shift the focus to the flag (and change their life long opinions about it suddenly in a matter of days) in order to avoid dealing with the too easy access to fire arms that plague the United States. We are our own ISIS. I'm not an expert, but from the facts I've seen it seems our own guns are killing us much more than an foreign terrorist group. Why cannot we not face these two important issues with the same fervor and resolve - racism AND guns. We are killing each other all the time with hate and violence and it deeply saddens me to the core.
6
Why would Southerners -- and Republican Southerners in particular -- be so concerned about whether or not to take down or remove a flag that celebrates a heritage of treason, for that is what the stars and bars represents. Possible answer: Without the support of segregationists, who still haven't gotten over losing a war their ancestors started -- and lost -- over 150 years ago, they'd just be another party of Yankees in a section of the country that hates Yankees.
2
Former U.S. Representative Jones, in defending the continuation of flying the Confederate flag against those demanding it's removal asks "Where does it end?" Simply stated Sir: When this symbol of a protracted holocaust perpetuated against fellow Americans is eradicated.
4
At issue for me is the argument suggesting that flying the CSA battle flag is protected by the First Amendment. In point of fact, that flag stood for rejection of the U.S. Constitution. The leadership of the CSA dodged the hangman's noose for the war crimes and treason they committed. Those who claim heritage as the reason for its public display today are forgetting how their ancestors participated in perpetrating this treason. That is their true "heritage". Rich white Southern planters considered themselves as aristocrats. They are the ones who brought enslaved Africans to this country and created a caste system in an already class specific social structure. How they convinced poor white southern men to fight to maintain a system that kept them impoverished is beyond me. Sic semper tyrannis.
5
Those who say that the symbolic gesture of removing flags from state buildings will not solve the race problem in this country are right. The delusional banner of "state's rights" and "heritage" in which many southerners wrap themselves, telling themselves that the confederate flag has no relation to our disgraceful history, is what needs to be dismantled. I grew up in the south and remember vividly the proud display of confederate flags that was never associated with a call for unity or true brotherhood. We all need to do some honest soul-searching and face up to the truth of what these symbols mean to us and our community. When removing the flag becomes a symbol of this acknowledgment, that will be real progress. To those who believe there are more pressing issues in this country: think about the underlying cultural issues that make some of them seem so intractable. This is not an either/or situation.
2
Removing the flag or not removing the flag is a call to choose sides. Those who may have racist views will find it much more difficult to persist in their opinion if they find that they have to stand alone.
"For decades, images of the Confederacy have been opposed by people who viewed them as painful symbols of slavery, racism and white dominance, and supported by those who saw them as historical emblems from the Civil War, reminders of generations-long Southern pride. "
he flag is/was also supported by: people who viewed them as painful symbols of slavery, racism and white dominance
he flag is/was also supported by: people who viewed them as painful symbols of slavery, racism and white dominance
1
There are many ways to honor those Southerners who perished in the Civil War without displaying the flag under which they fought just as Germany has found ways to honor its WWII dead without displaying a swastika.
2
The Civil War ended over 150 years ago. No veterans live. Why would they need a confederate veterans group anywhere?
It is a disgrace to honor the Criminals of that tragic time. They enslaved, beat, starved, tortured and killed millions, and want flags, statues, and streets to commemorate the criminals. Sick. I was appalled to hear racial epithets spoken in a work environment recently while in Tennessee. Thank God I don't live in there.
It is a disgrace to honor the Criminals of that tragic time. They enslaved, beat, starved, tortured and killed millions, and want flags, statues, and streets to commemorate the criminals. Sick. I was appalled to hear racial epithets spoken in a work environment recently while in Tennessee. Thank God I don't live in there.
8
“But at the end of the day, there are much bigger issues in Tennessee and in the Capitol,” he said in an interview. “What’s disturbing to me is that there are members of the Democratic Party who are seeking to use a tragedy to lead to distracting issues when we have big questions like education reform and job growth.”
And I would reply-
The big questions- education reform and job growth- are linked to the racism that pervades this country. Removing the the flag is a good start.
And I would reply-
The big questions- education reform and job growth- are linked to the racism that pervades this country. Removing the the flag is a good start.
7
Can you imagine American reaction to hearing the following news from abroad?
The Bavarian regional government wants to fly the Nazi flag at all state offices to demonstrate its pride in its ancestors?
The prefecture of Fukushima wants to show the Rising Sun flag at all official ceremonies to show its respect for its heritage?
The fact that so many Americans will not or cannot see that their demonstration hurts others still is testament to the tenacious legacy of slavery.
The Bavarian regional government wants to fly the Nazi flag at all state offices to demonstrate its pride in its ancestors?
The prefecture of Fukushima wants to show the Rising Sun flag at all official ceremonies to show its respect for its heritage?
The fact that so many Americans will not or cannot see that their demonstration hurts others still is testament to the tenacious legacy of slavery.
60
The slave ships that brought their human cargo from Africa were built in Northern shipyards, insured by Hartford CT companies, and they flew the Stars and Stripes, not the Confederate ensign.
Slavery was an American problem, not a Southern one alone. In 1861 not a single political party of significance favored emancipation.
Today,the Confederate flag is flown to honor war dead. May they rest in peace.
Slavery was an American problem, not a Southern one alone. In 1861 not a single political party of significance favored emancipation.
Today,the Confederate flag is flown to honor war dead. May they rest in peace.
15
No, it is not flown to remember the war dead. It is flown to object to civil rights, to stand stubbornly on the side of a past that we should all be ashamed of, no matter which state. It is flown by those who wish to make it clear that they do not want a modern, integrated society in which people of all races, creeds and colors are equal.
Yes, slavery was an American problem and yes racism is an American problem and an indelible stain on the honor of this country.
But the North did not go to war to preserve slavery, and there is just as much honor in "honoring" the Confederate war dead as there is in "honoring" the German war dead.
But the North did not go to war to preserve slavery, and there is just as much honor in "honoring" the Confederate war dead as there is in "honoring" the German war dead.
Most slave traders were Spanish and Portuguese, African, or stateless. Their activities predated Columbus' voyages.
In 1861, like today, events moving the country to a new awareness were sudden.
The confederate flag is flown by some to honor war dead, and by others to reveal their undying devotion to evil.
In 1861, like today, events moving the country to a new awareness were sudden.
The confederate flag is flown by some to honor war dead, and by others to reveal their undying devotion to evil.
2
The enslavement and torture of an entire race is nothing to celebrate. The flag is the living symbol of this evil. Put it in a museum but keep it out of public spaces. For black people this is equivalent of a Jewish person in Germany having to parade by a Nazi flag on his/her way to work. Wrong there and wrong in this country.
23
Black people please support the Confederate flag as it remains. See it is important to follow the logic of our white counterparts, which rather "ask for mercy than grant forgiveness." GOD's mercy is abundant, so let's test HIM so instead of asking to taking down that flag, we ourselves will not only remove it, but burn it to the ground. Thank you Dylan Roof as the catalyst for this long awaited moment of freedom.
First we as black people are asked to support the Confederate flag as it remains, then you thank a 21 year old kid who has admitted to shooting 9 people to death in cold blood, for being a catalyst in the debate over the flag. I don't know what's more appalling.. Roof's killing of innocent people, or you applauding him for raising flag consciousness.
Is this really the best we can do in response to yet another unspeakable and senseless horror? Nine people are ruthlessly murdered in a sanctuary and the best we can do is demand that a state legislature take down a flag? Have we truly capitulated on the demands for gun control? This is such a sad farce masquerading as a demand of justice. What will it take to wrest the obliviousness from this acquiescence to darkness?
19
First you learn to crawl, then you learn to walk, and then finally you run. At least we are making some progress.
No one has given up on gun control, but this is a very important historic step. People have had enough - enough of racism, enough of tolerating emblems of hatred, and yes, enough of endless guns. Despite Haley and many other governors, including my own, weakening gun laws to a ridiculous degree, Americans in the latest PPP poll still agree by 90% that universal background checks are needed, and that guns should be kept out of the hands of the dangerous and the mentally unstable. The same poll showed that only 20% wanted the Confederate flag on public property.
Maybe there will be a similar collapse in right wing politician and NRA opposition to this, as there has been to flags. Senators Manchin and Toomey are trying to put together a new gun control measure but the GOP Senate will probably block it.
Maybe there will be a similar collapse in right wing politician and NRA opposition to this, as there has been to flags. Senators Manchin and Toomey are trying to put together a new gun control measure but the GOP Senate will probably block it.
It's a good first step to stop recognizing this symbol of hate and oppression to be accepted by everyone. It needs to go
SC Senator Lee Bright, who is not very, ran for US Representative and raffled off an AR-15 to supporters. He lost badly, thank goodness.
12
The state of TN still proudly displays a statue of the Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest, a white southerner who was also the first KKK leader.
"This is a feeding frenzy of cultural cleansing,” said Ben Jones, the chief of heritage operations for the Sons of Confederate Veterans”. Yes, it is Mr. Jones and it is high time the Good People of America stood up and shouted NO MORE to your party and organizations of fear, anger, hate and racism. The article also says, "Ryan Haynes, the Republican Party chairman in Tennessee says, “What’s disturbing to me is that there are members of the Democratic Party who are seeking to use a tragedy to lead to distracting issues when we have big questions like education reform and job growth.” What a joke as his party cuts social programs for average and poor people at every level and gives their wealthy benefactors even more tax breaks. Time to send them all home - or back to their proud countries of origin - and restore democracy in America.
28
In the pictures on the web site, Dylan Roof is shown wearing a Gold's Gym t-shirt.
Protestors are now calling for a boycott of Gold's Gym. I guess we can't do too much to stamp out evil racism.
Perhaps we should look in our hearts, and not at pieces of cloth?
Protestors are now calling for a boycott of Gold's Gym. I guess we can't do too much to stamp out evil racism.
Perhaps we should look in our hearts, and not at pieces of cloth?
17
@ Jonathon
The Gold's Gym story sounds like your own invention. Would you provide a link to any reports of such protests or I might have to draw an obvious conclusion about your probity. As I would have thought obvious Gold's Gym's logo isn't the symbol of a war about slavery and 100 years of oppression during the Jim Crow era, and one would have to be remarkably obtuse not to understand the role of flags as symbols.
The Gold's Gym story sounds like your own invention. Would you provide a link to any reports of such protests or I might have to draw an obvious conclusion about your probity. As I would have thought obvious Gold's Gym's logo isn't the symbol of a war about slavery and 100 years of oppression during the Jim Crow era, and one would have to be remarkably obtuse not to understand the role of flags as symbols.
27
If you woke up tomorrow in a town hung with swastikas, swastika flags, and the symbols of a totalitarian ideology, would you wonder if all that came from someones (or a group's) "heart"?
9
A governmental decision to ban Confederate memorials and symbols from government buildings is one thing -- and a very good thing, too. The government is supposed to respect the rights of all, equally, while those symbols clearly celebrate the opposite.
A wave of purging of anything associated with the Confederacy, however, is the opposite of the government's interest in protecting equality of rights. Political correctness, run amok, tramples the 1st Amendment.
Protestors may be defacing monuments at present -- and they should face the legal consequences for their action. But government must resist the temptation to turn a wave of hooliganism into a rationale for legally-sanctioned iconoclasm.
A wave of purging of anything associated with the Confederacy, however, is the opposite of the government's interest in protecting equality of rights. Political correctness, run amok, tramples the 1st Amendment.
Protestors may be defacing monuments at present -- and they should face the legal consequences for their action. But government must resist the temptation to turn a wave of hooliganism into a rationale for legally-sanctioned iconoclasm.
16
Another aspect of your comment is that when governments drive dissent underground (even disgusting dissent), then they (we) no longer have a clear picture of what the dissenters believe or intend.
Why does 'the obvious' take so ridiculously long to be corrected here?
Indulging the nastily stubborn South has been a huge mistake.
Indulging the nastily stubborn South has been a huge mistake.
48
Why? Because everybody has been so scared of offending white Southerners, the heart and core of the Republican Party.
2
Poorly educated folks and their republican representatives who can get them to vote against their own best interest.
T H Beyer, you paint with a LARGE BRUSH.
It wasn't that long ago Canadians were paying bounties for Scalps.
We indulge their behaviors today. Is that also a huge mistake?
It wasn't that long ago Canadians were paying bounties for Scalps.
We indulge their behaviors today. Is that also a huge mistake?
Regardless of the cultural significance of the Confederate flag to some southern whites the time to display it is long past. It represents their misguided attempt to hold onto the immoral institution of slavery. Owning and exploiting other humans out of greed and cruelty should not be something that any thinking American would want to celebrate or remember.
40
Not just slavery, but the continuation of the oppression of African Americans.
And while the flag defenders are talking about "respecting their heritage" by displaying the Confederate battle flag, they are ignoring the fact that it was only in active use for four and a half years. Why do you only respect that tiny chunk of your heritage vs. the other 400 years of it?
Let's *really* celebrate Southern heritage and plaster the pre-Louisiana Purchase flag of France all over the South, or at least those states that were part of it? Why don't we do the same in the original Southern colonies with the appropriate English flag? Oops, not to forget an early Spanish flag for Florida! After all, the oldest white settlement in the US is St. Augustine!
If you want "heritage", there it is. But that's not what they are actually celebrating, now is it?
Let's *really* celebrate Southern heritage and plaster the pre-Louisiana Purchase flag of France all over the South, or at least those states that were part of it? Why don't we do the same in the original Southern colonies with the appropriate English flag? Oops, not to forget an early Spanish flag for Florida! After all, the oldest white settlement in the US is St. Augustine!
If you want "heritage", there it is. But that's not what they are actually celebrating, now is it?
Republicans want to confront racism at long last? No they don't. If they did they would call off their dogs in trying to destroy the Affordable Care Act. They hate it because they hate that the president is a black man.
So all the rest of this is so much filthy hypocrisy.
If the Supreme Court wrecks the ACA next week let's see the Republicans abandon their race hate and pass a simple fix to a law that has delivered health coverage and cafe to millions of black Americans.
Otherwise we will know again and for sure that when it comes to race the Republicans and their party are a pack of liars.
So all the rest of this is so much filthy hypocrisy.
If the Supreme Court wrecks the ACA next week let's see the Republicans abandon their race hate and pass a simple fix to a law that has delivered health coverage and cafe to millions of black Americans.
Otherwise we will know again and for sure that when it comes to race the Republicans and their party are a pack of liars.
31
Yes, anyone who is against paying $1400 a month with a $6500 deductible must be an evil racist!
12
You will know for sure. The rest of us won't be silly enough to equate all republicans with "racism" just because they believe in different things.
The left's intolerance has become unhinged. Everyone who disagrees is now a "racist".
The left's intolerance has become unhinged. Everyone who disagrees is now a "racist".
9
No. Just woefully misinformed.
3
The Confederate battle flag is just the most visible and portable symbol of the South's historic slave-based racism. No one I've heard has yet noted what is engraved on that monument in Charleston (hint: it appears to be a tribute to those who committed treason against the federal government in defense of the right to keep slaves):
The world shall yet decide
in truth's clear far off light
that the soldiers
who wore the gray and died
with Lee were in the right.
The world shall yet decide
in truth's clear far off light
that the soldiers
who wore the gray and died
with Lee were in the right.
41
People sure like to keep the Pot boiling.
It's a nice thought for those of us with southern roots.
Thank you.
I remember that it was Black Slavers who sold their brethren into slavery.
I also think that it is hypocritical to use tobacco and cotton products while ranting about the south. Everyone wants the cream and no cares about the poor cows. ha ha
It's a nice thought for those of us with southern roots.
Thank you.
I remember that it was Black Slavers who sold their brethren into slavery.
I also think that it is hypocritical to use tobacco and cotton products while ranting about the south. Everyone wants the cream and no cares about the poor cows. ha ha
Americans wake up!!
You have lost most of your privacy rights, through the Patriot Act. You have allowed corporations to buy elections. The US military budget takes food and infrastructure out of your mouths and spends it on military adventures that are failures. Fifty Americans have died from terrorism since 9/11 but 400,000 Americans have been shot to death by fellow Americans in the same time period. Your 'bought' politicians just passed another 'free trade' bill that will further strangle your middle class. Your inner cities are on the verge of revolt. Your long term spending obligations -around a 200 trillion deficit- is a over $1 MM per citizen.
And you are worried about a stupid flag?
That's the big concern?
Wake up!!!!
You have lost most of your privacy rights, through the Patriot Act. You have allowed corporations to buy elections. The US military budget takes food and infrastructure out of your mouths and spends it on military adventures that are failures. Fifty Americans have died from terrorism since 9/11 but 400,000 Americans have been shot to death by fellow Americans in the same time period. Your 'bought' politicians just passed another 'free trade' bill that will further strangle your middle class. Your inner cities are on the verge of revolt. Your long term spending obligations -around a 200 trillion deficit- is a over $1 MM per citizen.
And you are worried about a stupid flag?
That's the big concern?
Wake up!!!!
24
Worrying about the flag is not "stupid."
The US has many problems and many reprehensible policies. And many of us are working on addressing them.
Indeed, many citizens in our cities are "on the verge of revolt." Almost all of them are black and poor. Making a change in South Carolina and across the South in the official display of racist symbols is smart and necessary and none too soon!
The US has many problems and many reprehensible policies. And many of us are working on addressing them.
Indeed, many citizens in our cities are "on the verge of revolt." Almost all of them are black and poor. Making a change in South Carolina and across the South in the official display of racist symbols is smart and necessary and none too soon!
23
Sometimes you got to strike while the irons hot. The confederate celebration is toast.
1
Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims: 48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center.
We need to address our own home grown issues which will hopefully help unite us to then address these worldly issue of importance.
We need to address our own home grown issues which will hopefully help unite us to then address these worldly issue of importance.
The debate's focus to date--racism and slavery--though on point ignores an issue of at least equal import--celebrating the battle to to dissolve the union of states that define who we all are today--Americans. The question of states' rights today are legitimately defined by the courts not on battlefields. As a veteran, I do not dishonor the men who answered the Southern call to arms. I do dishonor the cause for which they fought.
21
They were terrorist, not soldiers.
1
I agree. The flag is a representation of people who chose to overthrow our government. I thought that was considered to be treason. Displaying the Confederate flag is a statement of dissatisfaction with our government. That right is supported by the first amendment but has no place in state capitals or any other government building.
Thank you 06Gladiator. Statues of Generals and War Winning Politicians speckle our landscapes. Why the fervor to honor successful Warriors still is ingrained remains beyond my beliefs. I too am a veteran of foreign wars. But, I've learned that War in any case is simply bad news.
These United States have slipped into the wrong direction. Since Truman, we've left Freedom behind, we are quickly become slaves ourselves, regardless of color.
To argue about a Battle Flag atop a State Capital is insane. Those people must have little in their lives to do. Could we justify this by blaming those 10,000 Atomic Bomb Tests in the atmosphere?
These United States have slipped into the wrong direction. Since Truman, we've left Freedom behind, we are quickly become slaves ourselves, regardless of color.
To argue about a Battle Flag atop a State Capital is insane. Those people must have little in their lives to do. Could we justify this by blaming those 10,000 Atomic Bomb Tests in the atmosphere?
There seems to be a lot of cynicism concerning Republicans true motives here. Whether this stand against the Confederate battle flag is for political expediency or a sincere effort doesn't matter. I've lived in the south most of my life. This is a big deal and a really good thing.
23
If the NRA were to step in and demand the rebel flag be put back up, our spineless senators would immediately do so. What is happening here is merely because there is no central authority dictating the use of the flag. Now, try the same level of the flag removing efforts on sensible gun control and background checks. I thought not.
28
I have been reading that there are people (white) in the south who want to use "history" rather than racism as a reason for keeping that flag up. Don't they realize that the "history" they are talking about is a history of slavery. Don't they know that the confederate states and flag were instituted to protect slavery? They separated from the USA, formed their own government and designed a flag for the only purpose of retaining their rights to own slaves and because those whites thought they were superior to black people.
Give me a break. History? I think not.
Give me a break. History? I think not.
26
Flag defenders say they are proud of “their” southern culture and history. Well there are other “theirs.” Southern history is also the property of southern blacks. Clear your minds defenders, Brett and Scarlett and other quaint movie images about the south are not real.
They didn't know it when the civil war was fought and most choose not to realize it now.
Education is not top priority in the south. Education cuts have proven its point.
If the white majority of the U.S.A. had welcomed our black brothers and sisters into full citizenship, supporting their ambitions to education and employment, then the flag could be displayed as a historical relic. But we didn't welcome African-Americans as full members of our nation. Instead we resisted full integration. In the l950's, as a kid of 12, I remember hearing an official of the St Louis Missouri government describe "colored" neighborhoods this way: "We don't send the police in there. We don't care if they kill each other." That's an exact quote remembered for over 60 years. We didn't provide public safety for black Americans. We didn't provide good and equal education. We didn't provide equal opportunity in employment. Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act requiring equal opportunity in voting (yes, voting!) and said this would lose the South for the Democrats. The Federal Government of the U.S.A became anathema to many by forcing integration in education. Our public schools have been systematically starved of funds and support ever since Kennedy sent in the federal marshals in Mississippi. We wonder what is wrong with our schools: well that's it: Racism killed not only many blacks but the beacon of education for all our kids except the wealthy. Charter schools are a hidden relic of racism while the flag is an open symbol of racism. Take down the flag but that's not enough. Please reply: what else should we do?
35
As a teenager, early 1960s, I applied for a summer job at the county government(didn't get one) but the personnel officer quickly told me(I'm caucasian), that applications of blacks were put at the bottom of what appeared to be a stack of applications about one foot hight.
Maybe a national appology.
Sir,
There is no questioning thwe damage wrought by racism in this country. I do disagree with you on charter schools however. Charter schools were initially a conservative idea that has been widely embraced by minority parents wose chidlren attend those schools. Charter schools present a thorny issue for some democrats because it pits inner city chikldren against the teachers's union, a key democratic ally, The president himself is a fan of school choice.
It certainly is true that some kids will still be forced to stay in failing schools. But the wing of the democratic party who sies with the teachers union would rather leave all the children in the fasiling schools and argue that we should make improvements to them. tMaybe those improvements can be made over time, but thats of little consolation to today's generation of children stuck in them.
There is no questioning thwe damage wrought by racism in this country. I do disagree with you on charter schools however. Charter schools were initially a conservative idea that has been widely embraced by minority parents wose chidlren attend those schools. Charter schools present a thorny issue for some democrats because it pits inner city chikldren against the teachers's union, a key democratic ally, The president himself is a fan of school choice.
It certainly is true that some kids will still be forced to stay in failing schools. But the wing of the democratic party who sies with the teachers union would rather leave all the children in the fasiling schools and argue that we should make improvements to them. tMaybe those improvements can be made over time, but thats of little consolation to today's generation of children stuck in them.
It's so sad that the actions of a fringe group can deprive thousands, possibly millions of proud people from the Southern States of an emblem that they fought so hard for and sacrificed so much.
4
I was born and raised in the southern United States. I still live here. Some of my ancestors fought under the confederate battle flag. The flag symbolizes treason and a horrible part of our nation's history. It doesn't belong anywhere except in a museum. I am southern, but that flag represents a part of our history of which I am most certainly not proud.
11
You are confusing racism with pride.
"THEY'RE" not a fringe group. and if there a need to be sensitive to one side's emblem, we must be equally sensitive to the other sides.
Gun related violence and mass killing needs to stop with the emergency of now and anything and everything that will achieve this goal is worth considering. Mass hysteria and political nonsense will once again dilute this issue of non law enforcement gun owners who intend to kill not in self defense but for all the wrong criminal reasons.
3
Girish, you've won the HITS THE NAIL ON THE HEAD award.
Thank you for explaining the truth.
Thank you for explaining the truth.
The Times has an article "Hillary Clinton Says Confederate Flag ‘Shouldn’t Fly Anywhere’
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/24/us/politics/hillary-clinton-says-confe...
This implies that Hillary is objecting to people's freedom of expression as guaranteed by the First Amendment.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/24/us/politics/hillary-clinton-says-confe...
This implies that Hillary is objecting to people's freedom of expression as guaranteed by the First Amendment.
5
There now been several cases of Hillary making proposals that are probably illegal in order to score political points. We saw another example of it when she said that she would go further than Obama on immigration while Obama insisted that he had gone as far as he could legally go. The word for such proposals by Hillary is demagoguery.
2
Saying the Confederate battle flag should fly anywhere is like saying racism shouldn't exist anywhere. It's a hope. Hilary can't go onto people's lawns and yank down flags any more than she can make people change their pig-headed, hate-driven beliefs. What she CAN do is put enough pressure on public institutions to have them, of their own volition, finally understand the toxic message sent by that symbol of oppression, and take them down.
6
"shouldn't" doesn't mean "can't"!
Hillary would never agree with your perception of her opinion.
Hillary would never agree with your perception of her opinion.
Now that the flag thing seems to be settled, can we please have a rational discussion about gun control?
26
In other words can we just ban guns and call everyone who opposes that a bigot racist? After all those people are responsible for the collapse of the black family right? Please, all you want to do is take away conservatives AR-15s. I mean liberals want to end stop and frisk - a measure that gets illegal guns off the streets and saves hundreds of lives. Oh but they want to ban AR-15s a rifle that is responsible for virtually no murders. Im sure the discussion will be rational.
It's not settled until that flag comes DOWN!!...
Here we go again!
What is happening to our country. Up until this tragedy happened, everyone supporting the flag was spewing First Amendment rights, and people's rights to remember their past (and IMHO rightfully so). Suddenly, our First Amendment rights are being trampled all over because one deranged person used a GUN to shoot 9 people. The symbol did not kill anyone; it is a man wielding a GUN who did that.
Republicans now have joined the chorus (like the turncoats they are) to take a symbol down. Republicans would do much better by supporting gun control laws.
Walmart, probably the biggest seller of arms and ammunition, is also taking down the merchandise related to civil war. Walmart, stop selling GUNS and problem will be less. Amazon, which squeezes every ounce of human dignity from its warehouse workers has also joined the bandwagon.
Shame on all of them and to all the people who want to take a symbol down. We should be strong to tolerate hateful speech and hateful imagery. Otherwise we are no different from many other countries where politically "incorrect" speech is not tolerated.
Come on America, you can do better than that.
What is happening to our country. Up until this tragedy happened, everyone supporting the flag was spewing First Amendment rights, and people's rights to remember their past (and IMHO rightfully so). Suddenly, our First Amendment rights are being trampled all over because one deranged person used a GUN to shoot 9 people. The symbol did not kill anyone; it is a man wielding a GUN who did that.
Republicans now have joined the chorus (like the turncoats they are) to take a symbol down. Republicans would do much better by supporting gun control laws.
Walmart, probably the biggest seller of arms and ammunition, is also taking down the merchandise related to civil war. Walmart, stop selling GUNS and problem will be less. Amazon, which squeezes every ounce of human dignity from its warehouse workers has also joined the bandwagon.
Shame on all of them and to all the people who want to take a symbol down. We should be strong to tolerate hateful speech and hateful imagery. Otherwise we are no different from many other countries where politically "incorrect" speech is not tolerated.
Come on America, you can do better than that.
6
It's not to be tolerated on government facilities.
But you have the right - no, the moral obligation! - to drape your mailbox with the rebel flag, just to teach "those people" the tolerance they so badly need.
Do I state the position correctly?
But you have the right - no, the moral obligation! - to drape your mailbox with the rebel flag, just to teach "those people" the tolerance they so badly need.
Do I state the position correctly?
5
Nonsense. No one's rights are being trampled on. If you want to buy that flag and display it, you have that right. What you really want is for government to endorse a symbol of racism. You have the right to argue for that cause, but you don't have the right to have your views prevail over others.
Let's rid ourselves of People with Guns and COPS with GUNS and the NSA, CIA, FBI, DHS, the Nuclear Arsenal, and the Military Budget. Otherwise, humanity will be living SOONER THAN YOU THINK only in Antarctica.
I have never seen such an outpouring of hatred, and in the name of being against hatefulness ... as in the majority of the comments. Sadly, a terrible amount of further divisiveness is being planted. Our leaders, our journalists have been furthering worse prejudice, by condoning all this. Our politicians are craven villains for going against the principles of the Bill of Rights, the very foundations of democracy itself. There is no freedom in being craven hypocrites who so readily cave into a mob spirit. The mob spirit is not what inspired this nation, is not what freed us from the oppressions of the Old World.
So shame, double and triple shame be upon the craven politicians and the most foolish journalists, who do the bidding of the real haters, the real perpetrators of injustice in America today.
So shame, double and triple shame be upon the craven politicians and the most foolish journalists, who do the bidding of the real haters, the real perpetrators of injustice in America today.
4
" The mob spirit is not what inspired this nation,"
Nonsense.
Three words: Boston Tea Party.
Your teapeople venerate a mob - disguised as Indians, no less - who dumped private property into Boston Harbor.
Nonsense.
Three words: Boston Tea Party.
Your teapeople venerate a mob - disguised as Indians, no less - who dumped private property into Boston Harbor.
We would much rather deal with a "symbol" than deal with what truly creates the socio-economic divide.
Standing up fro what is right is not hatred. You are projecting
The Confederate flag is a symbol of complete and total failure and only bitter-enders cling to it, I guess as a symbol of their failure to join the human race.
17
Let us also change the names of military bases honoring confederate traitors - such as Fort Bragg.
The Confederate flag is a refusal to accept defeat of the principles of the enemy nation for which it stood - indivisible in its belief in the supremacy of the white male over black chattel. It fought and died a war in which it was the aggressor from the first shots at Fort Sumter, and it viewed the kindness of the North and the call for reconciliation as weakness. It is a symbol of refusing to admit that that war was lost by the South, and it is a symbol of the bad faith and passive hostility of those that embrace it.
I agree 100% with the company's that will stop selling the confederate battle flag I light of the tragic event in Charlston. Maybe they could stop selling guns as well, that action could prevent another mass shooting event in the future.
21
There are plenty of outdoor sports type stores and some are outright huge palace like structures that will love to sell the Confederate flags and their parking lots will be full.(Unfortunately).
It's ironic that the issues that were used by the right, Republicans and conservatives not too long ago as wedge issues to divide people have turned against them. Lee Atwater must be rolling in his grave.
12
Since the tragedy in SC, the media & politicians have focused their attention on the confederate flag. An easy target, the removal of which will do nothing to stop the next gun related crime. Instead of passing reasonable gun legislation, lets all focus on the flag. I was born in the north but have lived in the south for 20 + years. In my opinion, this will only make relations between the races worse. Southerns are very proud of their confederate ancestors and do not view the war as a quest to maintain slavery, they view it as a response to northern aggression. The vast majority of their ancestors who fought in the war did not own slaves. I am not an advocate of the confederate flag, but I do believe banning it will make matters worse and only allow leaders to brag they did something instead of taking on the difficult issues of gun control, mental health, etc. The U.S. wants to solve all the problems in the middle east, a culture vastly different from our own, yet many don't even understand the mind set of their fellow countrymen in the south.
5
Many black people are also Southerners, and the Confederate flag is a source of pain to them. One quarter of all the people in South Carolina are black. Since 1962, they have had to live under the shadow of the flag of rebellion, racism and slavery flying on statehouse grounds.
You are misinformed. The issue is not about banning that flag; it's about government endorsement of it. Your argument that it isn't about slavery is also misinformed. The Confederacy fought to preserve the institution of slavery, and to deny human rights to African slaves. Even though most of them didn't own slaves, they believed in slavery. Whatever other issues they had with the U.S.A., that was the principal issue. The rest of it is just a smokescreen.
Symbols send messages. When the state government supports a flag that represents racism and rebellion, it must not stand.
Thomas Jefferson , who wrote the Declaration of Independence and James Madison who was chiefly responsible for the Constitution of the United States , both owned slaves . To head down the Jefferson Memorial
2
@ Joseph Zilvinskis
So did George Washington. The difference is that they weren't involved in a war to destroy the union over the issue of George Washington. In the late 18th century slavery in various forms (serfdom etc.) was common across the world. By 1861 it was an anachronism.
So did George Washington. The difference is that they weren't involved in a war to destroy the union over the issue of George Washington. In the late 18th century slavery in various forms (serfdom etc.) was common across the world. By 1861 it was an anachronism.
7
In his first draft of the Declaration, Jefferson wrote about the misdeeds of the British king,
"he has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating it's most sacred rights of life & liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. this piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the CHRISTIAN king of Great Britain. determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce: and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die,..."
This part of the declaration was removed so as not to offend the Southern colonies like South Carolina.
"he has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating it's most sacred rights of life & liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. this piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the CHRISTIAN king of Great Britain. determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce: and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die,..."
This part of the declaration was removed so as not to offend the Southern colonies like South Carolina.
It's amazing that those who favor keeping the flag ignore that it represented that of a foreign country that lost the war to keep people enslaved. Their ruse is essentially to keep it as a memento of their families past association of inhumanity towards their fellow human beings while citing the bible and done in the name of Jesus.
Here's something to remember. Remember the millions dead, the destruction and disruption of cultures that flag symbolizes. Remember the racist conditioning symbolized by that flag of white privilege. Remember the foreign country and institution of racism it harkened. Remember the wealth gains generated by the oppressed that the banner was flown over. Ahh the memories...
So the nostalgia of paying "tribute" to those who fought to preserve the institution and culture of a foreign, slave owning country needs to wither and die like raisins in the sun.
Here's something to remember. Remember the millions dead, the destruction and disruption of cultures that flag symbolizes. Remember the racist conditioning symbolized by that flag of white privilege. Remember the foreign country and institution of racism it harkened. Remember the wealth gains generated by the oppressed that the banner was flown over. Ahh the memories...
So the nostalgia of paying "tribute" to those who fought to preserve the institution and culture of a foreign, slave owning country needs to wither and die like raisins in the sun.
20
Can the NYT tell us how many (and which) states allow some kind of vanity or affinity plate that includes the image of a confederate flag? This would be useful information to know, as this debate takes shape.
3
We relinquished the stars and bars to the bigots and segregationists many decades ago. Take it down.
4
I associate the stars and bars with the rural working man, the countryside, religion, personal freedom, Southern Rock and Jack Daniels. Moreover, the Confederate flag represents resistance against soulless corporate America and domination of our American culture by New York, Washington, and Hollywood.
1
At the same time that Dylann Roof made history, two black men in a typical urban setting opened fire on a block party, killing or wounding ten people, including a three-year-old. There were no protests, crying governors or pontificating presidents, and few people even know it happened because they only read the headlines before rushing to react. The casualties inflicted on the black community by police or white racists is miniscule compared to the carnage that blacks inflict upon themselves. Fear of racism has gotten so ingrained in the national psyche -- it seems as trendy as the hula hoop once was -- that the real problems are ignored in favor of grandstanding, posturing and counterproductive protests (see Baltimore murder rate spike since their internationally-reported incident).
8
Beyond the hope must be the change I support this worthy cause overthrow the Confederate symbols America united will never be defeated
4
I find it a bit comical that these people have been poking the rest of the nation in the eye for decades with their confederate symbols and who have been quite comfortable as long as it is "the other" who is insulted and divided from supposed mainstream America, have discovered newly found sensitivities.
Now, that the shoe is, quite appropriately, on the correct foot, it is they who feel "insulted" and who lament that it is "dividing people like crazy."
Evidently they have all along been oblivious to the fact that their symbols of "heritage" and honoring "grandpappy" (seriously?) have long been viewed by many Americans as hateful, racist, and divisive.
Now, that the shoe is, quite appropriately, on the correct foot, it is they who feel "insulted" and who lament that it is "dividing people like crazy."
Evidently they have all along been oblivious to the fact that their symbols of "heritage" and honoring "grandpappy" (seriously?) have long been viewed by many Americans as hateful, racist, and divisive.
12
Americans...this makes me proud for you! Next step is to rid your society of guns!
7
It is not about flags, it is about guns.
3
It is both. We can fight against both.
The Confederate flag needed to be taken down at Charleston,this was necessitated as an symbol of our empathy with the innocent Nine felled by the Hate Bullets of Roof,an sympathiser of the Confederators.
That this lowering of one flag has catapulted into an nation wide frenzy of lowering of Flag,Renaming of lakes,Pulling down statues...
Is precisely the need to avoid.
We are swinging from one extreme to another & that needs to be avoided,a middle ground is always the best policy in life.
That this lowering of one flag has catapulted into an nation wide frenzy of lowering of Flag,Renaming of lakes,Pulling down statues...
Is precisely the need to avoid.
We are swinging from one extreme to another & that needs to be avoided,a middle ground is always the best policy in life.
1
Just awhile ago this evening, I saw a pickup truck go by with a confederate flag fully waving off the back. This was in Westerville, a suburb in Columbus, Ohio. Not even south Columbus. You don't have to go very far in America to find racist. Ohio the swing state that doesn't swing.
10
All this attention to banning or eliminating the Confederate flag implies that the racism of the the US is centered in the South. Nothing can be further from the truth. Racism is a fact of life throughout the US. Years ago we saw anti black actions in Philadelphia and other places. Before then and even now if we paid attention we could hear the problems of the blacks in the North. We can even look at he black ghettos and see the upwardly mobile blacks turning their backs there. We look at the problems of the Vietnamese and think that this isn't part of the racism. It is. New immigrant groups came to the is country and got shunned until they worked their way out of poverty if they were white Christians. The hatred of people being different will never end by segments of the population, through banning the Confederate flag. The racially motivated jargon coming from all segments of the population is there and even can be coming from people who are victims of racial problems themselves. Simplifying the problem of banning the Confederate flag will not solve anything. Racism is well entrenched in the US and needs more than a quick legislative fix to start curing the problem if there even is a cure. The Confederate flag is part of our history like it or not. It is what is in people's hearts that counts and just keeping them from showing the Confederate flag will do nothing in the long run. Many proud men died defending that flag.
5
No one died defending that flag. They died to protect the institution of slavery and later generations flew the flag in defiance of civil rights.
3
It's part of history all right. A shameful, tragic and embarrassing past that should be remembered as such, not elevated to hero status. Display the relics in a museum, not from the state capital.
Yes, because the real issue is not that 9 people were killed by a racist nutcase - it's that we need different colors on the piece of fabric that we stick on a flagpole.
Jeez! I mean, can we never stick to the issue? Does everything have to be turned into a straw man?
What is it with Americans and flags? Flags don't matter - they aren't important.
Jeez! I mean, can we never stick to the issue? Does everything have to be turned into a straw man?
What is it with Americans and flags? Flags don't matter - they aren't important.
3
Where was I?
I had no idea the confederate flag was lying at any statehouse in this ountry.
I cannot believe that in 1962 a stte in this union got away with this
treasonous travesty ---so through the LBJ years ---there was no fight
against this ? wht about MLK no fight? not even the black panthers ?
no fight from al Sharpton? the NAACP?
no one fought this since 1962 ?????????? amazing absence of
courage
I had no idea the confederate flag was lying at any statehouse in this ountry.
I cannot believe that in 1962 a stte in this union got away with this
treasonous travesty ---so through the LBJ years ---there was no fight
against this ? wht about MLK no fight? not even the black panthers ?
no fight from al Sharpton? the NAACP?
no one fought this since 1962 ?????????? amazing absence of
courage
4
We had a vote in Mississippi years ago to replace using the Confederate flag as the State flag. Many of us fought to replace it, even though we lost.
To suggest that there could ever be any honor in the archetypal symbol of slavery is of course both revolting and absurd.
But removing a hateful symbol from government seems to this white progressive to be just that, symbolic. It gives the false impression that something has been done to end what has for centuries been an indelible stain on the honor (using that word in a proper sense) of this country while paradoxically making it easier for racists to both fester and hide.
A substantive attack on racism cannot begin until we have driven a stake through the Jim Crow drug laws that are written in facially neutral language but have routinely been applied in a blatantly racist fashion to imprison, disenfranchise and render unemployable generations of African Americans.
But removing a hateful symbol from government seems to this white progressive to be just that, symbolic. It gives the false impression that something has been done to end what has for centuries been an indelible stain on the honor (using that word in a proper sense) of this country while paradoxically making it easier for racists to both fester and hide.
A substantive attack on racism cannot begin until we have driven a stake through the Jim Crow drug laws that are written in facially neutral language but have routinely been applied in a blatantly racist fashion to imprison, disenfranchise and render unemployable generations of African Americans.
6
Why I Can’t Forgive Dylann Roof
Is Special Education Racist?
Calls to Drop Confederate Emblem
Are these articles going to stop? I don't even read them now. I ready the Daily Telegraph for real news. I keep hoping this newspaper will go back to way it used to be just a few short years ago - before this dysfunctional obsession with black people began. There are other very serious issues in this country affecting all of us. Rather than solving them, this newspaper has only increased the divide by creating a sense of self-entitlement. You certainly didn't carry on this way about the Sikh temple massacre in Wisconsin. Just another symptom that the Democratic party will not assist the American middle-class and will only focus groups which will and issues which will garner an emotional vote.
Is Special Education Racist?
Calls to Drop Confederate Emblem
Are these articles going to stop? I don't even read them now. I ready the Daily Telegraph for real news. I keep hoping this newspaper will go back to way it used to be just a few short years ago - before this dysfunctional obsession with black people began. There are other very serious issues in this country affecting all of us. Rather than solving them, this newspaper has only increased the divide by creating a sense of self-entitlement. You certainly didn't carry on this way about the Sikh temple massacre in Wisconsin. Just another symptom that the Democratic party will not assist the American middle-class and will only focus groups which will and issues which will garner an emotional vote.
2
It's amazing how the main stream media will only report one side of an issue. No where do you see on main stream news interviews with southerners who grew up with the confederate flag and how it does not represent slavery to them but southern heritage. It is the same with race relations and climate change. Only one side of the story gets reported and an agenda advanced.
4
And what about the Black s who grew up with it?
What heritage? The right to own people as chattel?
With in a week Fox news will announce that with all the stars and bars taken down there is no more racism in the USA.
6
I have less respect for the public figures who, well aware of which way the wind is blowing, are suddenly adding their voices to the call to drop Confederate symbols than I do for Confederate flag-wavers themselves.
3
Let's make that call to take the Confederate battle flag down international. I say that it's removal is long overdue. The American Civil War, along with slavery ended long ago. That flag is nothing more that a symbol of brutality, oppression and a lost cause. It is an anachronism that clearly belongs in a museum.
Interestingly, it is a symbol used by an outlaw motorcycle gang here in Australia. It is time that they got rid of it too.
My deepest condolences to the victims of the recent shootings at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church.
Interestingly, it is a symbol used by an outlaw motorcycle gang here in Australia. It is time that they got rid of it too.
My deepest condolences to the victims of the recent shootings at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church.
7
I agree that the Confederate flag should not be flown on any government grounds or property.
I only wish that politicians and retailers would show as much fervor, determination and resolve to eliminate easy access to guns.
I only wish that politicians and retailers would show as much fervor, determination and resolve to eliminate easy access to guns.
7
But for its foundation in slavery, the states of the United States would just be adminisrative precincts, not a bunch of competing feifdoms undermining each other with unequal protection of law.
2
Over the years the United States existed as a nation, a minority was often abused by the judicial system, and by people who even took up extra-judicial means, like lynchings against that minority.
However today there is a reverse bigotry being foisted. It is not against a minority. It is against the very soul and heart of this nation.
It has been operating undercover for the most part, and because of liberal antagonists, and before that, doubtless, it was stated by communist infiltrators whose aim was to destroy the very heart of our democratic and free system where liberty is supposed to prevail.
Liberty was not supposed to be only for blacks. But that's the way they would like it of course.
Whites and especially whites who were 100% for a white America, didn't want any integration of the races of course. And actually did the blacks really want the integration that much, before the Civil Rights years when it was talked about, and then desegregation was done as a result of laws passed. The agents were on the streets for years before, setting the stage for this, querying people most intrusively, and testing their susceptibilities.
So who is winning this new civil war, while losing the battles?
The most hateful Islamists are allowed their symbols, flags, and rights of expression, but no one is allowed any ground to stand on, if they aren't 100% for everything the black leaders, and only the black leaders, want.
However today there is a reverse bigotry being foisted. It is not against a minority. It is against the very soul and heart of this nation.
It has been operating undercover for the most part, and because of liberal antagonists, and before that, doubtless, it was stated by communist infiltrators whose aim was to destroy the very heart of our democratic and free system where liberty is supposed to prevail.
Liberty was not supposed to be only for blacks. But that's the way they would like it of course.
Whites and especially whites who were 100% for a white America, didn't want any integration of the races of course. And actually did the blacks really want the integration that much, before the Civil Rights years when it was talked about, and then desegregation was done as a result of laws passed. The agents were on the streets for years before, setting the stage for this, querying people most intrusively, and testing their susceptibilities.
So who is winning this new civil war, while losing the battles?
The most hateful Islamists are allowed their symbols, flags, and rights of expression, but no one is allowed any ground to stand on, if they aren't 100% for everything the black leaders, and only the black leaders, want.
1
We will now see more confederate flags than we ever thought possible.
Just as Obama brought every racist out of their outhouse, this issue will bring every racist out too.
Just as Obama brought every racist out of their outhouse, this issue will bring every racist out too.
6
Great news. Glory, glory, Hallelujah.
5
Don't be fooled by conservatives suddenly seeing the light on the Confederate flag. They've had decades to do the right thing, but they preferred to defend the display of the offensive flag under the banner of the south's "heritage" or freedom of expression or some such sophistry.
Why the change now? It's not the massacre in Charleston, since other atrocities (the murder of James Byrd) carried out under the cover of the flag didn't budge them.
But the exposure of the GOP's support among white supremacists and unreconstructed racists - that is a different matter. The Republican racist dog whistle has always drawn such people to their ranks but it best operates under the radar. It becomes an embarrassment when it is front-page news that, for instance, white supremacists contribute large sums to the GOP's campaign coffers.
So now it's suddenly time to act on the flag issue, to seek cover from the searchlights of exposure.
But that doesn't alter the fundamentally racist nature of so much of the GOP's platform and rhetoric: their demonizing African-Americans and thugs and criminals and lazy leeches on society; their open contempt for Mexicans (some of whom, as Trump graciously acknowledged, aren't rapists) and Muslims and gays and immigrants and anyone who is different and vulnerable.
They had decades to act on the Confederate flag and did nothing, and the movement of some of them on the issue now does not change the racist nature of the GOP beast.
Why the change now? It's not the massacre in Charleston, since other atrocities (the murder of James Byrd) carried out under the cover of the flag didn't budge them.
But the exposure of the GOP's support among white supremacists and unreconstructed racists - that is a different matter. The Republican racist dog whistle has always drawn such people to their ranks but it best operates under the radar. It becomes an embarrassment when it is front-page news that, for instance, white supremacists contribute large sums to the GOP's campaign coffers.
So now it's suddenly time to act on the flag issue, to seek cover from the searchlights of exposure.
But that doesn't alter the fundamentally racist nature of so much of the GOP's platform and rhetoric: their demonizing African-Americans and thugs and criminals and lazy leeches on society; their open contempt for Mexicans (some of whom, as Trump graciously acknowledged, aren't rapists) and Muslims and gays and immigrants and anyone who is different and vulnerable.
They had decades to act on the Confederate flag and did nothing, and the movement of some of them on the issue now does not change the racist nature of the GOP beast.
8
1. Everyone's flag has ben associated with shameful deeds -- or your country is too young So let's not rewrite others' history unless we are ready to rewrite our own -- to take down the US flag because it flew over many, many instances of oppression.
2. But to have a state flag be so protected that it can't be flown at half mast - come on, folks!
3. There were great opponents on the other dides whose memories deservies to be honored even if we thing that they were very wrong. Let's leave it alone.
.
2. But to have a state flag be so protected that it can't be flown at half mast - come on, folks!
3. There were great opponents on the other dides whose memories deservies to be honored even if we thing that they were very wrong. Let's leave it alone.
.
4
People need to get over themselves.
By pushing your own thoughts and agendas onto others you are doing exactly the same things you are supposedly fighting against.
The cycle then continues. Over and Over again. Uprising, fight back etc.
People are not the same, People are different.
People think differently.
That will never change....it should be embraced.
By pushing your own thoughts and agendas onto others you are doing exactly the same things you are supposedly fighting against.
The cycle then continues. Over and Over again. Uprising, fight back etc.
People are not the same, People are different.
People think differently.
That will never change....it should be embraced.
2
The Confederacy is one of the most important mortal enemies of the United States in our history; it would be perfectly reasonable to see the vaunting of their flag and therefore their values as an act of treason; but, I agree, however contemptible the cause, the right of free speech (in the United States, not the Confederacy) prevails; just as it prevails if sympathizers of ISIL or Naziism want to parade their flags. But don't fly them over the buildings of our government; it's our government, not theirs.
8
Some Conservatives, cowardly Presidential candidates and other politicians were forced from behind to this position of finally seeing and now removing odious symbols of oppression and degradation lead by the dead bodies of 9 people simply living out their faith in Christ in their church.
Sometimes the arc of justice is finally tilted by a singular event. Bull Connor and unleashed fire hoses were the unknowing finger on the scale of justice cried out for by millions over hundreds of years. May Roof never see the light of day again in our society, but he has played an important part in the tilt toward justice.
Sometimes the arc of justice is finally tilted by a singular event. Bull Connor and unleashed fire hoses were the unknowing finger on the scale of justice cried out for by millions over hundreds of years. May Roof never see the light of day again in our society, but he has played an important part in the tilt toward justice.
5
This clueless American thought the Confederate flag was a relic of The Civil War seen at a museum. Our English teacher in France did tell us of the 'End of Slavery' and even if I had known at the time, I would not have piped up that my ancestors were fighting as far back as the Maryland Colonial Wars.
There is an old photo here of my great-grandfather at 19 who went to war, under Stonewall Jackson. By the time you finish listening to your parent, an amateur historian, your ancestor was General Lee's right-hand man, and the biographies written at the end of the 19th century are flamboyant.
There is no reason not to believe after reading the above that this ancestor was an honorable man who sent later in life his 3 daughters to Bryn Mawr, among the first women to graduate as doctors in 1907, one as a scientist who is cited as an notable American woman of the 20th Century.
There is no mention of slavery. I do not know the opinion of my ancestors from Baltimore but I know mine since the early days of childhood. Any form of oppression, slavery, human-trafficking is 'out' for this person who continues volunteer work for an international children's agency where friends are working on mission in 'Red Zones' around the globe.
Hard enough to look at the American Flag at the moment, please drop these Confederate Emblems. Hard work begins now, not in the Graveyards of the Past to bring our Country together. Let us rise and try. There is a War going on.
There is an old photo here of my great-grandfather at 19 who went to war, under Stonewall Jackson. By the time you finish listening to your parent, an amateur historian, your ancestor was General Lee's right-hand man, and the biographies written at the end of the 19th century are flamboyant.
There is no reason not to believe after reading the above that this ancestor was an honorable man who sent later in life his 3 daughters to Bryn Mawr, among the first women to graduate as doctors in 1907, one as a scientist who is cited as an notable American woman of the 20th Century.
There is no mention of slavery. I do not know the opinion of my ancestors from Baltimore but I know mine since the early days of childhood. Any form of oppression, slavery, human-trafficking is 'out' for this person who continues volunteer work for an international children's agency where friends are working on mission in 'Red Zones' around the globe.
Hard enough to look at the American Flag at the moment, please drop these Confederate Emblems. Hard work begins now, not in the Graveyards of the Past to bring our Country together. Let us rise and try. There is a War going on.
6
Thanks so much for your comments. However, I must note that your great grandfather was able to send 3 daughters to college in 1907.
Black daughters certainly were not going to college in 1907. Many are still not going to college.
Black daughters certainly were not going to college in 1907. Many are still not going to college.
1
esp
A good and true point on your part and he worked hard to become an eminent woman's doctor in Baltimore after being wounded four times and released as a hostage.
Let us take up the banner and continue with the 'No Girl Left Behind' program starting here in America in an international children's agency and let us listen to the President of the United States of America, as he goes forth to make sure that affordable education becomes available to all of the people.
I never went to college but I plan to learn for the rest of my life.
A good and true point on your part and he worked hard to become an eminent woman's doctor in Baltimore after being wounded four times and released as a hostage.
Let us take up the banner and continue with the 'No Girl Left Behind' program starting here in America in an international children's agency and let us listen to the President of the United States of America, as he goes forth to make sure that affordable education becomes available to all of the people.
I never went to college but I plan to learn for the rest of my life.
One thing we now know with certainty, Yankees are the sorest and least gracious winners in all of history. By the way, Slavery ended in the Confederacy before it did in the Union. The last Confederate general to surrender was an Indian Chieftain .. Indian tribes were part of the Confederacy as they too wanted to secede from the Union.
3
"... Slavery ended in the Confederacy before it did in the Union..." So the confederacy still had it, didn't they? It was disgraceful then and it's disgraceful now. I don't care who ended it first. It was wrong then and any reminder of it now is wrong, too.
A misreading of history in the extreme. Slavery was not voluntarily abandoned in what had been the Confederacy and certainly not be any law passed by the Confederacy itself. The end of slavery in the Confederacy was a result of the Emancipation Proclamation -- which outlawed slavery in those states still in rebellion against the Union, aka the Confederate States, which were legally still part of the United States. It took passage of the 13th Amendment to end slavery throughout the entire nation. The Confederates risked everything in an effort to keep slavery alive and extend it, and they lost and they were verrrrry unhappy about it, as evidenced by the Jim Crow laws that lasted until the 1960s. The Confederates were very sore losers.
That would be:
arbitrot nyc Pending Approval
"In Minnesota, activists demanded that a lake named after John C. Calhoun, a senator and vice president from South Carolina who was a proponent of slavery, be renamed."
Hmm. I wonder if a similar sentiment will be expressed about Calhoun ('04) College at one Deep South University, aka Yale, and be efficacious in having it renamed?
arbitrot nyc Pending Approval
"In Minnesota, activists demanded that a lake named after John C. Calhoun, a senator and vice president from South Carolina who was a proponent of slavery, be renamed."
Hmm. I wonder if a similar sentiment will be expressed about Calhoun ('04) College at one Deep South University, aka Yale, and be efficacious in having it renamed?
3
For those wishing to evoke state's rights and pride in one ancestors I suggest reading the December 1860 Crittenden compromise, which was the last attempt to stop the Civil War from happening. If you still want to talk about the cause of the war and pride, after reading that, then remember to say what the South wanted and the North refused. Try it.
4
Yes, an attempt to protect slavery indefinitely, a genuine compromise. We also should have compromised with the Nazis and Japanese Imperialists and let them conquer and kill everyone they wanted to just to avoid getting ourselves involved in any unpleasantness. (I am being sarcastic, if that's not obvious).
While I certainly have no sentiment for the confederate flag, nonetheless, in the aftermath of the Charleston shooting, this flag debate is a rip-off, if not a ham handed orchestration of misdirected public focus. Plain and simple, the issue is guns and gun violence, and the fact that guns too easy to get ahold of. But we already know that. A debate about the confederate flag is just a flimsy excuse to pretend otherwise. We don't need a discussion about the symbolism of flags. we need to do something about guns.
5
both need to go: the flag and guns.
Interesting headline considering I just read an article that Confederate flag sales are up over 2,000 percent at Amazon. The popular vote seems to be to purchase in bulk anything with a confederate emblem on it.
2
As long as Britain's Union flag flies, Saint Andrew's cross saltire will also fly. Symbols appeal to the illiterate. The wish to eradicate hated symbols is just as stupid as the wish to adorate them.
1
I'm no fan of hate symbols which, for many, the flag represents including myself. However, I am dismayed about the overwhelming focus on form over substance. There is so much being written about the CSA battle flag but hardly any conversation of drug addled racist murderous maniacs and their ilk and how they were able to obtain weapons and were not being monitored for their potential violence. If we are not going to ban weapons altogether (and this was not even an assault weapon but a .45 pistol) then we are going to have to formulate an effective procedure for keeping guns out of the wrong hands. It's not impossible. It could have stopped the Virginia Tech madness. It could have stopped the Connecticut travesty, as well as many others. We are overly focused on barking up the wrong tree.
4
All four of my mother’s great grandfathers were members of the Army of Northern Virginia from the beginning of the Civil War. One died in a Yankee death camp. The other three fought until General Lee surrendered to General Grant. Those men came home, took off their uniforms, went back to work, and apparently never paraded or celebrated after the war. They got on with their lives. We need to do the same thing.
Whatever meaning the flag once had as the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, the Klan polluted that meaning and modern racists have done the same thing. Let it go to museums. Honor my ancestors properly, not by promoting hatred.
The Confederacy lost the war. Let it go. I for one am glad we lost.
Whatever meaning the flag once had as the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, the Klan polluted that meaning and modern racists have done the same thing. Let it go to museums. Honor my ancestors properly, not by promoting hatred.
The Confederacy lost the war. Let it go. I for one am glad we lost.
15
Well said.
Flags should be about a shared heritage and a shared future, not a symbol of pride for a few.
5
Only some of the commenters to this article (and many previous articles) are lamenting even screaming why arent we demanding gun control after this tradgedy?? Every single tragedy it is the obvious answer and it is ignored pushed under the national rug of "oh no we cant go there, the NRA will crush us". Spineless legislators and many gun owners prefer to believe silly ideas such as "guns dont kill people people kill people". What will it take? It wasnt 20 children in Connecticut.
5
Only a few commenters are speaking of gun control because the others all know it is a useless fight. IF they didn't do something about gun control after those 20 children were killed, NOTHING will be done. You are correct when you mention spineless legislators, but those legislators DID NOT become legislators to do what is right. They became spineless legislators because it is more important to get reelected.
Yes, the symbol is too offensive but removing a piece of cloth from a flagpole may be easier than requiring some basic safeguards on obtaining guns. And that is sad.
The country may need rebels but the noxious nationalism of the white supremacist movement is simply a destructive force that builds a fantasy holy war on a foundation of class and cultural resentment. Divide & Conquer & Mission Accomplished!
The country may need rebels but the noxious nationalism of the white supremacist movement is simply a destructive force that builds a fantasy holy war on a foundation of class and cultural resentment. Divide & Conquer & Mission Accomplished!
3
After all the confederate symbols have been expurgated, American racists from every part of the country will still know that the GOP is the party most likely to pursue their wants and wishes. Anyone who thinks otherwise is truly delusional.
5
Racist flags don't kill people. A racist killed people.
I'm all for the removal of the Battle Flag of the Confederacy. But I fear change in our country will go no further than that and that our energies and will to change will have been expended on this symbolic change.
It is racism in America itself that lives on, unlike the Confederacy, which died. And it is racism that needs to go.
I'm all for the removal of the Battle Flag of the Confederacy. But I fear change in our country will go no further than that and that our energies and will to change will have been expended on this symbolic change.
It is racism in America itself that lives on, unlike the Confederacy, which died. And it is racism that needs to go.
6
If any doubts what the Confederate Battle Flag represents, I urge all thinking humans to read TA-Nehisi Coates' fascinating and numbing article (June 22) in "The Atlantic". This is not an "opinion" piece but a diary of some of the key players in the near destruction of the Fragile America. Each Southern State represents itself in its own words; their positions explanations and rationale. This "strange" institution of African bondage was envisioned to go beyond A.merica's borders: Statesmen salivated at the prospect of taking Cuba militarily to expand Slavery (because Africans were the only products fit for such climate). Or the benevolence of whites in redeeming Africans from their "free" jungle life- to a life of ease and happiness as Slaves. The desire to expand the African Slave economic engine to Central America was also viewed as a viable reality to a number of states: If THIS is your heritage that you hold so gingerly with fond memories or sympathetic to; I ask you to read this article in its entirety.
6
Let us also focus on the other issue of importance in this tragic episode.
Governor Haley has called for the removal of the Confederate flag.
Now it is up to Governor Haley to tell the legislature of South Carolina exactly what it must do regarding the matter of strong gun laws for their State.
Or she can go down as a feeble leader, as well as a person with little regard for the welfare of All its citizens.
After the Newtown tragedy the state of Connecticut strengthened its gun laws.
South Carolina must do the same.
Or it can go down in infamy as a state of feeble governance with little regard for the welfare of ALL its citizens.
Governor Haley has called for the removal of the Confederate flag.
Now it is up to Governor Haley to tell the legislature of South Carolina exactly what it must do regarding the matter of strong gun laws for their State.
Or she can go down as a feeble leader, as well as a person with little regard for the welfare of All its citizens.
After the Newtown tragedy the state of Connecticut strengthened its gun laws.
South Carolina must do the same.
Or it can go down in infamy as a state of feeble governance with little regard for the welfare of ALL its citizens.
6
Mitch McConnell, one of the biggest racists in congress, now calling for removal of civil war glorification… what a hypocrite!
4
Please remember that slavery was an institution for thousands of years not just the 300 or so years cited by Obama and others. Subjugation of one race by another is indeed part of the story of civilization. Obama used the metaphor of DNA to evoke the embedded nature of the vice but then he skipped a beat when he misrepresented how long racial subjugation has been around. If we really want to eradicate this vice then we need to examine the whole of its history. The so-called white race is only one of many races - including the so-called black race - who have employed the slavery system to achieve culural/economic goal. By all means, put that flag in a museum but make sure that the museum put the American experience in proper context. Only then will that flag really lose its glamour and potency.
3
How one is different from someone else has always been the story of humanity on this planet. We are better than you, my God is better than yours, my religion is better than yours, capitalists vs. socialists, sports competition, competition in general. Competition is what it's all about! I am better than you. Humans love competition in all its forms! Is it not time to get over that, if possible?
I think much too much is being made over a flag. Certainly it's being used nowadays as a banner of hate, but banning the flag is only a feel-good act with absolutely no effect on the real issue at hand. In fact, the NRA probably loves the fixation on the Confederate flag. It diverts attention from the real issues, including ineffective gun control and pervasive prejudice and bigotry in our society.
We forget about the murdered in a frenzy of anti-flag rhetoric that will not prevent or lessen the likelihood of something similar in the future.
We forget about the murdered in a frenzy of anti-flag rhetoric that will not prevent or lessen the likelihood of something similar in the future.
8
Those who see the flag as a positive cultural symbol of the south but with no hate or racism, need to remind themselves that people are calling for the flag to come down precisely because it has been used to this day as a symbol of hatred and racism. That said, going further than the stars'n'bars may be counterproductive and create a backlash from some who have minded their own business up until now - after all, nobody is using statues of Jefferson Davis or others as symbols of hate and racism.
2
Less Guns= More Peace! How about a nationwide call to ban guns except when strictly regulated?
9
I think South Carolina State Sen. Paul Thurmond got it exactly right when he said that the Civil War was about the South's determination to protect and maintain slavery at whatever cost. The public display of the Confederate battle flag in its contemporary guise is entirely a product of southern resistance to federal civil rights initiatives. It is indeed regrettable that the Times' article did not quote Sen. Thurman's speech before the South Carolina Senate more extensively. All in all, it is a stunning indictment of contemporary racism, and by none other than the youngest son of Strom Thurmond, the late South Carolina senator and arch segregationist who ran for president on the Dixiecrat ticket in 1948, pledging segregation then and forevermore.
South Carolina's governor, Nikki Haley, had to walk a fine line between reactionary conservatives in her own state's Republican Party, and younger, and perhaps more recently arrived South Carolinians, who viewed that flag in an entirely different light. Understandably, Gov. Haley is in an awkward position, and she certainly lacks the gravitas that the Thurmond name brings to the conversation, and particularly where Sen. Thurmond's voice was the clearest and most compelling statement of reasons why the old flag is considered an abomination by many.
Making that speech must have been extraordinarily painful for Sen. Thurmond, given his family history and place of honor in South Carolina society, and for that he deserves our respect.
South Carolina's governor, Nikki Haley, had to walk a fine line between reactionary conservatives in her own state's Republican Party, and younger, and perhaps more recently arrived South Carolinians, who viewed that flag in an entirely different light. Understandably, Gov. Haley is in an awkward position, and she certainly lacks the gravitas that the Thurmond name brings to the conversation, and particularly where Sen. Thurmond's voice was the clearest and most compelling statement of reasons why the old flag is considered an abomination by many.
Making that speech must have been extraordinarily painful for Sen. Thurmond, given his family history and place of honor in South Carolina society, and for that he deserves our respect.
12
Impressive acting by Nikki Haley and amazing that she can cry on cue. Many professional actors have trouble with that.
And no, I don't see any sincerity on this "wave of conscience" by Republicans. They had a meeting and decided that since it is always "too soon" to talk about racism or about gun violence in America, they had to do something. The smartest and most politically expedient thing they could do was to make a "concession" on the these symbols of the racist, treasonous Confederacy. It costs them little compared to the harm of appearing to defend white supremacy.
And no, I don't see any sincerity on this "wave of conscience" by Republicans. They had a meeting and decided that since it is always "too soon" to talk about racism or about gun violence in America, they had to do something. The smartest and most politically expedient thing they could do was to make a "concession" on the these symbols of the racist, treasonous Confederacy. It costs them little compared to the harm of appearing to defend white supremacy.
3
To Mr. Ben Jones who claims the flying of the Confederate Flag is in honor of ancestors who fought in the Civil War I say the flag is the embodiment of the traitors your relatives were.
8
Well, this is progress, and should be greeted and encouraged as such.
But watch very closely the various legislative debates which take place, especially in Red States, and you'll see the NRA and ALEC lobbies, noisily in the case of the NRA, quietly in the case of ALEC, trying to steer the discussion so that it does not tread on the sacred ground of "An anti-tank gun in every garage" and "Shoot first and ask questions later" best practices, also known as "Stand your ground" laws.
And let's see how far so-called conservative enlightenment (actually, shame and political concern) gets when it comes to killing them softly with no Medicaid expansion -- because they're just takers.
But watch very closely the various legislative debates which take place, especially in Red States, and you'll see the NRA and ALEC lobbies, noisily in the case of the NRA, quietly in the case of ALEC, trying to steer the discussion so that it does not tread on the sacred ground of "An anti-tank gun in every garage" and "Shoot first and ask questions later" best practices, also known as "Stand your ground" laws.
And let's see how far so-called conservative enlightenment (actually, shame and political concern) gets when it comes to killing them softly with no Medicaid expansion -- because they're just takers.
1
I'm all for pulling the flag down, removing it as a symbol that is an affront every day to blacks in particular, and in the long term the widespread support for removing the flag and the widespread condemnation of bigotry is likely to lessen the political influence of bigotry. However, anyone who thinks it will stop the racism and hate are mistaken - in the short term, removing the flag will also increase the sense of victimhood and "losing their country" for the bigots and likely increase the racism and hate.
5
Lindsay Graham and Hillary Clinton have a lot common--they both pander as required to the center.
The number of African-American youth who die everyday in gun violence on the streets of Chicago, Detroit, and Oakland, to name a couple, should trouble us far more than a flag pole in South Carolina. You want to see a lot of death, go to our large cities, not in churches but on the streets where the lost congregations meet these days and nights.
This--flying the Confederate flag--is just another bourgeoisie distraction that makes all those center-left and -right members feel good about themselves. And how much have Amazon and Walmart really given up to the bottom line? Bet the former sells more iPhone accessories in a minute and the latter more Doritos on a weekend than Confederate flags anything in a decade. Smooth business move, actually.
How decadent and delusional we have become since Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr. were assassinated. Now, where's that latte?
The number of African-American youth who die everyday in gun violence on the streets of Chicago, Detroit, and Oakland, to name a couple, should trouble us far more than a flag pole in South Carolina. You want to see a lot of death, go to our large cities, not in churches but on the streets where the lost congregations meet these days and nights.
This--flying the Confederate flag--is just another bourgeoisie distraction that makes all those center-left and -right members feel good about themselves. And how much have Amazon and Walmart really given up to the bottom line? Bet the former sells more iPhone accessories in a minute and the latter more Doritos on a weekend than Confederate flags anything in a decade. Smooth business move, actually.
How decadent and delusional we have become since Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr. were assassinated. Now, where's that latte?
3
I can't help but think that the calls for removal of the confederate flag from public displays, and the decisions of stores not to sell it, none of which were taken as recently as last week, is a smoke screen--a deliberate distraction from the more pressing issue of gun violence and gun sales.
6
“It’s an hysteria — we just want to fly this flag for family, for Grandpappy. This whole thing is basically insulting and demeaning our respect for our ancestors.”
Wow. Of course the only way someone could say something like this is if they had no respect whatsoever for the ancestors of either Black Americans or anyone whose ancestors died to end the abomination that was slavery.
Statements like this really capture the mindset of a racist.
Wow. Of course the only way someone could say something like this is if they had no respect whatsoever for the ancestors of either Black Americans or anyone whose ancestors died to end the abomination that was slavery.
Statements like this really capture the mindset of a racist.
8
Are Democrats calling for the removal of Robert Byrd's name and picture from the Senate? Didn't think so.
Phillip Gunn of Mississippi has shown great courage and demonstrated genuine leadership in calling for a new flag in Mississippi. Tate Reeves, on the other hand, is a coward and seeks to reinforce white privilege on all those who despise a symbol that is unequivocally racist in Mississippi.
5
If is time for a national conversation, as many have called for, then how do we propose to do that? Didn't we just hear what roof had to say? I'd say the "conversation" is pretty much over. I don't want to hear what they have to say. It's time to stop protecting hate speech and gun peddlers. Charge them with incitement, conspiracy, bad breath, anything but
4
***You guys are far worse than Fox/WSJ when it comes to on-line censor bias. Wonder if Obama knows that, or cares? For the second time:
Let's not get too wound up about this flag business. We must remember the American flag flew on fighting ships that provided protection and safe passage for many of the slave ships that brought the human cargo to our shores. And let’s not forget the many thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians who died with the American flag flying over them.
But here the tyranny of the center continues to wage war on free speech–the real threat we face, not this flag. What the center demands is submission until the last tooth is pulled by the victim himself.
Was it the nine deaths as opposed to one, was it the place, a church, was it the young man’s terribly misguided and obsessive behavior, or was it self-serving political expedience that now forces the flag down? If it is and never sold through Amazon or Walmart–a good business move given the pounding of the center–, then will our society be more civil on this issue? Will the center feel more righteous because it makes it easier to forget that the nation was, in fact, divided where brother fought against brother?
Or will this be, as it seems, just another ethically shallow, politically pandering, culturally convenient fix to an issue that goes far deeper and beyond a flag pole in South Carolina, to the streets of Chicago, Baltimore, and Detroit–where this flag has never flown?
Let's not get too wound up about this flag business. We must remember the American flag flew on fighting ships that provided protection and safe passage for many of the slave ships that brought the human cargo to our shores. And let’s not forget the many thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians who died with the American flag flying over them.
But here the tyranny of the center continues to wage war on free speech–the real threat we face, not this flag. What the center demands is submission until the last tooth is pulled by the victim himself.
Was it the nine deaths as opposed to one, was it the place, a church, was it the young man’s terribly misguided and obsessive behavior, or was it self-serving political expedience that now forces the flag down? If it is and never sold through Amazon or Walmart–a good business move given the pounding of the center–, then will our society be more civil on this issue? Will the center feel more righteous because it makes it easier to forget that the nation was, in fact, divided where brother fought against brother?
Or will this be, as it seems, just another ethically shallow, politically pandering, culturally convenient fix to an issue that goes far deeper and beyond a flag pole in South Carolina, to the streets of Chicago, Baltimore, and Detroit–where this flag has never flown?
5
It's time that the states act on the Confederate Flag, but how did that cause the murder of the nine Christians in Charleston?
1
Drop this tired rag once and for all. Show some respect for our black brothers and sisters.
8
As a boy in NYC in the 50s it briefly puzzled me (undocumented, a fleeting thought) why the Confederate symbols were out there - the Blue-Gray Football Classic, gray rebel caps, etc. Then in the 70s, the Dukes of Hazard, then the whimsical Ken Burns series about the war, it was part of our culture, a symbol of how we became who we are. Maybe at one time that was all OK, but not now -
5
Sandy Hook did not change *one thing.* Only a fool would think that the openly racist slaughter of nine black Christians would change anything.
Oh, except now, the flags will go underground, too, like the n-word and some other pieces of America's racist past, present, and future...
Oh, except now, the flags will go underground, too, like the n-word and some other pieces of America's racist past, present, and future...
3
My incessant advice to all the black people in America: Do not drop the Confederate Flag - take it as YOUR OWN. You paid a very high price for it! With a few minor modifications: In each of the four empty triangular red shapes on the sides, place in BOLD black letters the initials MLK. And as the only other requirement, place a 5 inch wide white stripe along the top edge, and in even bolder letters place in that white field the phrase: WE HAVE OVERCOME !
This time, the power of the Right Wing to excuse racial hate was crushed by a mouth that wouldn't, or couldn't, get with the program.
This time, the power of the media to spread the lies of the Right Wing was crushed by people of all races who have had enough of the insanity of hating people because of their race.
This time, apathy lost, and a modicum of social justice is triumphing. May it long continue, and not be the last.
The civil war has been over for 150 years. It is time to put it to rest.
This time, the power of the media to spread the lies of the Right Wing was crushed by people of all races who have had enough of the insanity of hating people because of their race.
This time, apathy lost, and a modicum of social justice is triumphing. May it long continue, and not be the last.
The civil war has been over for 150 years. It is time to put it to rest.
8
If this does happen and many or all Southern states take down Confederate symbols, this will be the first time Americans have come together for a worthy cause. One does not have to be African-American or Jewish to recognize that certain symbols like the swastika are symbols of deep hatred and discrimination. Just because Grandpappy fought for it, doesn't mean it was a just war. People need to evolve. Republican Conservatives are finally starting to move away from this deeply offensive symbol after over a century of fighting for it.
And if Conservatives are using this to deflect from gun control, then I say take one step at a time because this country has become racially divided and is hurting this country. If this evil act can help start some healing, then the death of these innocent victims could be a turning point in this country. Keep in mind that the deaths of a majority of "White" innocent little school children or Trayvon Martin couldn't move the hearts and minds of the NRA, this by no means will either. So let's embrace this one good thing coming from the Right even if it's for the wrong reason, and let's hope the power of prayer can do the same for gun control.
And if Conservatives are using this to deflect from gun control, then I say take one step at a time because this country has become racially divided and is hurting this country. If this evil act can help start some healing, then the death of these innocent victims could be a turning point in this country. Keep in mind that the deaths of a majority of "White" innocent little school children or Trayvon Martin couldn't move the hearts and minds of the NRA, this by no means will either. So let's embrace this one good thing coming from the Right even if it's for the wrong reason, and let's hope the power of prayer can do the same for gun control.
8
"It is not enough to discontinue the sell and use of capital confederate/rebel flags, over Southern Capitol Buildings or online. We must not be lost enmasse through marching black nationalist but we must actively kill those who are killing us, white racist and otherwise. Shall we forget that nine black people we murdered, in church, by a young white racist facist. So much deaths of our people past, present, and future. The race war is now but you grope in the day as though in the night!" Dr. Mauricelm-Lei Millere - African American Defense League.
It's amazing that some southerners think the debate over *removing* the Confederate flag is "divisive," but never thought for a moment that its mere presence has been divisive all along. It and other related symbols prevent a centuries-old wound from healing.
Confederate proponents of all stripes may have knowledge of our history but they have no understanding of its *meaning* whatsoever.
It is time for us to divest ourselves of the symbols of the most divisive struggle in our past so we can finally move toward a long-overdue reconciliation.
Confederate proponents of all stripes may have knowledge of our history but they have no understanding of its *meaning* whatsoever.
It is time for us to divest ourselves of the symbols of the most divisive struggle in our past so we can finally move toward a long-overdue reconciliation.
8
The fellow quoted in this article may interpret the confederate flag as the symbol of respect for his ancestors and Southern history. Hundreds and thousands of lynched, bullied, beaten and assassinated Americans who were set upon by mobs and killers flying the same flag as well as these victims' survivors and descendants probably interpreted or still interpret the ol' Stars & Bars as conveying a less exalted message.
46
And thousands of Indians were murdered by the US Army, not to mention that their land was stolen and the were confined to reservations or sent to virtual priso in Oklahoma.
1
Because he is a human being, the fellow in this article has a name. Unlike you, Ben has a dog in the race and he hasn't lynched anyone. He was probably asked a few questions by a media probe and answered them in his own way. He is not you and if offered most likely would pass on the opportunity. Stay relevant but please stop trying to cull the herd for us.
The "Stars & Bars" is not the confederate battle flag. it's a different flag.
1
Let's not forget the ten US Army bases named after Confederate leaders, that's equally unacceptable and reprehensible let's get on with the business at hand and rename those US military installations after some great American women and men who paid the ultimate price in defense of the USA---not the CSA (Confederate States of America).
Lieutenant Governor Reeves we don't want to share that racist history or symbols. Enough with the perpetuation of this racist ecosystem. The Union soldiers fought died and won get over it. Even Nazis had to get used to it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/opinion/sunday/misplaced-honor.html
Lieutenant Governor Reeves we don't want to share that racist history or symbols. Enough with the perpetuation of this racist ecosystem. The Union soldiers fought died and won get over it. Even Nazis had to get used to it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/opinion/sunday/misplaced-honor.html
33
Oh did they? Hmmm.
How about the call to take down the stars and stripes? There are way more people in this world that despise what that flag stands for then the confederate flag. Personally I have a thing about palmettos so lets take down the SC state flag too......
9
Obama's buddy, William Ayers, has a penchant for standing on flags. Maybe he could go to Charleston and stand on this one. I'll run the video until its over.
There are hardly any people in this world who despise what the U.S. Flag stands for. What they despise are the American foreign policies which are in contradiction to what that flag stands for such as policies dictated by energy dependency, and invading countries based on false intelligence.
Flags don't kill people. Guns kill people.
19
Guns DO NOT kill people! PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE!!!
3
Yes, well, Americans like killing people so it's gonna be flags, not guns, that get regulated.
1
That is technically true Marc but flags are symbols that incite people to act out their patriotism (like enlisting in the armed forces) or act out their delusions (like using guns to eliminate the folks who prevent purity of the white race).
I am sure the NRA would not even agree with your pronouncement.
I am sure the NRA would not even agree with your pronouncement.
1
I hear folks asking for a referendum in the southern states to decide whether the confederate flag should be displayed on public property, or on license plates, or in general good taste-- well it seems to me the public spoke VERY loudly in a de facto referendum about gun control (background checks) a while back after Sandyhook and an overwhelming majority (around 95%) found in favor of some level of gun control. What happened, the NRA, our politicians and other vested interests sold us out.
It is ironic that the primary argument for keeping the confederate flag is an argument about freedom of expression when (in very real terms) it symbolizes the precise opposite.
TAKE IT DOWN NOW.
It is ironic that the primary argument for keeping the confederate flag is an argument about freedom of expression when (in very real terms) it symbolizes the precise opposite.
TAKE IT DOWN NOW.
26
While Conservatives are on the subject of being respectful of people's ancestors, don't they owe some kind of reparations to the ancestors of African-American slaves, and their descendants? That should be the next conversation.
18
How do we calculate these reparations , and should the decendats of the thousands of blacks who owned slaves pay into this or should they even be able to receive the funds? Would recommend reading some of John Hope Franklins work on slavery in the South. He was the Africa American prof of history at Duke that spent a major part of his career studying and writing about slavery.
Perhaps you have not noticed; no one seems able to shut up about it. That is not so much conversation as noise.
It is high time this ideologically divides, polarized and beguiled nation that is no a fast track of self destruction form within, wakes up and reflects its own bigoted and racist past. Makes amends for a resolve within its own conscience the evils of symbol of hate, bigotry, racism, malignant narcissism, chronic scapegoating, perversity of inequality and indifference of white supremacy. All practiced by one too many misfits, who are in fact still fighting the lost cause, the civil war. Which was and nothing more then acts of terrorism and treason. Precisely why the confederate flag should be banned not only as offensive, but as an instrument of treason. For those who it is their historical past, it should be limited to museums, to illustrate is violent passed in this nations marred history. Those who insist on its glory and use as some bigoted defiance should be prosecuted for treason. It is by no means South's heritage but rather an absurdity.
7
In 20 or 30 years when whites are a minority population in the US we the white people better hope the new majority is totally ignorant of what white people did to them for centuries......If they're as mean to us.....whew....
Drop the Confederate Emblems fine but it was the gun that killed those people. Wouldn't it be nice if we put those in a museum too?
36
If the flag is coming down, that must mean that the war is over.
So now the next step is to disarm the people who used to fly that flag--you know, the people who didn't win the war.
So now the next step is to disarm the people who used to fly that flag--you know, the people who didn't win the war.
19
I don't understand- all this outrage over outlets selling a flag but nothing about it selling weapons!
25
Keir: Perhaps if you were an ancestor of that flag's repression ( I am a mere 4 generations removed)- you would understand.
It has nothing to do with outlets selling a flag.. It has EVERYTHING to do with that flag itself, and what it represents. And if you want a better understanding about that -- I suggest you turn to the American History books.
As Colbert said, the Confederate flag should be limited to tattoos and bumper stickers -- that way we'll know who the really awful people are.
30
My mind numbs trying to comprehend why individuals have dulled their humanity and are "ok" with revering a flag representing the goal of owning other human beings? This war was solely about the South maintaining its economic power by holding on to its Free labor pool. What is so complex about that reality? Have we become so removed or rather UNMOVED by what that all means?
I give conservatives zero credit here. Those Republicans who declared that South Carolina's Confederate flag was a "state's rights" issue have found themselves "leading from behind," as they so often have unjustly accused our black President. They also have been not-so-subtly channeling the self-serving Republican party line that the Federal government is somehow a threat to freedom. But white supremacy groups and their racial hatreds are confined to no state borders, especially in a world so connected by the internet. Claiming -- as did Rubio, Bush, Huckabee, Fiorina, and Walker -- that it's all South Carolina's business -- but of course hoping "they will do the right thing" or some such other pabulum -- was self-serving political calculus, and a spineless, mealy-mouthed cop-out. The symbol of the rebel Confederacy deserves no place in any state's pantheon of official symbols. It should be removed from any state government flag or any state grounds on which it appears. Real leaders would have been saying so on day one, and even before. Real leaders also would have been moving swiftly on the other issue so conveniently being hidden behind the rebel battle flag -- gun control. There is no real leader in the entire Republican pantheon, all of whom have in fact been very happy for years to stoke simmering "rebel" sentiments of all sorts in service to the ideological mantra that government is bad. They loved that flag. It was loaded with "conservative" votes.
21
It is the Democrats that put up the flags .. it was the Republicans who defeated the South and ended slavery. That is why MLK, Jr was a Republican.
Plenty of Germans died in WW II but you don't see any sane person saying that the Nazi flag should be flying high because to take it down demeans their ancestors who supported Nazi persecution and aggression. Claiming that the confederate battle flag should be flown to memorialize ancestors who supported slavery is completely analogous. Anyone who thinks otherwise has a serious cognitive deficit.
52
If that's your argument it isn't a good one. The American flag is hated and has blood on it as well. Might as well remove that to huh?
Well done everyone. Get rid of this clear symbol of injustice, slavery, segregation and the KKK; next why not tackle the guns, maybe then bring health care to South Carolina and the rest of the Republican old south, then consider a little economic democracy, fair wages, better schools and infrastructure. This might help make America a little less exceptional in the modern world!
31
The President when elected told us that America had two wars raging overseas and a recession. Historically, this was unprecedented. He told us that a Peace-Corps mission would be needed for those able to go across the States to get our Country working again.
He was hoping to be a Domestic President and this did not happen, but today he continues relentlessly to implement affordable health and educational programs for all people, while leaning heavily on rebuilding our Nation's Infrastructure and creating new jobs. Let's get moving and for those standing who care, let us join him.
He was hoping to be a Domestic President and this did not happen, but today he continues relentlessly to implement affordable health and educational programs for all people, while leaning heavily on rebuilding our Nation's Infrastructure and creating new jobs. Let's get moving and for those standing who care, let us join him.
The KKK must be freaking out right about now.
5
Let's save our tax dollars and send our legislators back home. Walmart is showing more effective leadership than any of them. The next step for Walmart is to establish their own standards for gun purchases and registration. Keep it up Walmart and you will have more customers than you could keep up with.
11
The problem, of course, is that it's not just the Confederate flag that belongs in a museum (not in a section of pride of the south, but rather in the shameful company of swastikas, in my opinion). It's the whole problem of racism that needs to be relegated to the museum of human ideas and activities. That won't be so easy, because it affects all of us, to one degree or another: fear of the "other" (immigrants, foreigners), discomfort with those who are "different" from us (LGBT; Muslims), divisive political strategies. But we Americans have a history of both suffering from and tackling these problems directly, and we can do it again.
4
I'm sorry it took the deaths of nine innocent people to bring an end to the Civil War and the symbols of hate associated with it. But I welcome the end none the less.
10
As a 'yankee', I probably don't fully understand the feelings the flag represents in the South. However, many people in the South don't realize how disgusting much of the country feels about any confederate relics.
11
Sore winner you are.
The confederate flag is surely an abhorrent blaze, pointing back to a trail of human misery and degradation. Hopefully, sometime very soon we will come to see unfettered access to guns as a similar shame.
11
I'm wondering where does this 'cleansing' stop?
Will, for example, 'The Dukes of Hazard' be banned from broadcast? Or 'Gone With The Wind'? Should 'The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn/Tom Sawyer' be expurgated or removed from libraries? Maybe editing out Leo Dicaprio's savage performance as a slave trader in 'Django Unchained' fits this approach.
And musically, should 'Dixie' be isolated and banned from broadcast? And perhaps too The Band's and Joan Baez' 'The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down' - and lets not forget Claude King's 'The Burning of Atlanta'. And is 'Old Man River' just a touch too 'Uncle Tom' for modern consumption?
The Confederate flag is not the USA's equivalent of Nazi Germany's loathsome banner - as it is being treated. Far from it. It's no more a symbol of slavery than the Union Jack is a symbol of a lost Empire.
Slavery in the USA is not unique to the South. It existed post Declaration of Independence and racial discrimination has been manifest across the contiguous USA ever since.
That a confused, unstable and disturbed young man should drape himself in the Confederate flag before committing an act of horrific racism - is not the fault of the flag.
The SC legislature were clearly at fault for not immediately lowering the Confederate flag to half mast as a show of respect and condolence - had they done so it's possible this firestorm of political correctness would not be the 'cleansing' witch-hunt is has become.
Tom Storm
Will, for example, 'The Dukes of Hazard' be banned from broadcast? Or 'Gone With The Wind'? Should 'The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn/Tom Sawyer' be expurgated or removed from libraries? Maybe editing out Leo Dicaprio's savage performance as a slave trader in 'Django Unchained' fits this approach.
And musically, should 'Dixie' be isolated and banned from broadcast? And perhaps too The Band's and Joan Baez' 'The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down' - and lets not forget Claude King's 'The Burning of Atlanta'. And is 'Old Man River' just a touch too 'Uncle Tom' for modern consumption?
The Confederate flag is not the USA's equivalent of Nazi Germany's loathsome banner - as it is being treated. Far from it. It's no more a symbol of slavery than the Union Jack is a symbol of a lost Empire.
Slavery in the USA is not unique to the South. It existed post Declaration of Independence and racial discrimination has been manifest across the contiguous USA ever since.
That a confused, unstable and disturbed young man should drape himself in the Confederate flag before committing an act of horrific racism - is not the fault of the flag.
The SC legislature were clearly at fault for not immediately lowering the Confederate flag to half mast as a show of respect and condolence - had they done so it's possible this firestorm of political correctness would not be the 'cleansing' witch-hunt is has become.
Tom Storm
13
Yes that was a mistake .. they would have violated the law, but they still should have done that.
Mr. Storm, perhaps you've forgotten the basic distinction between private and government action under the American constitutional order. It's one thing for government to support a symbol of slavery, racism, and oppression. It's another thing for private individuals to do so. Accordingly, none of your analogies hold true. A citizen can display the confederate flag on his car (well, pickup) and even on his front lawn. But the government cannot treat its citizens unequally.
1
Mr. Storm
Placing this old symbol of glory in a museum is a beginning, and gives hope that the people who died tragically while at prayer, will be remembered. It will show that America can take non-violent steps to remedy the exploitation of such historical relics. A Candle of Hope for Justice, Liberty and Equality has now been lit, and it should be handled with respect.
Placing this old symbol of glory in a museum is a beginning, and gives hope that the people who died tragically while at prayer, will be remembered. It will show that America can take non-violent steps to remedy the exploitation of such historical relics. A Candle of Hope for Justice, Liberty and Equality has now been lit, and it should be handled with respect.
Reality check by focusing on flag confederate its bacislly enabled what people doing. As for selling stuff government woud be better off in stopping flow drugs comng into this country that's poisoning minds of our people including prescription or illegal
2
I applaud and support the removal of the confederate flag from all government property. However, the removal of the flag and confederate merchandise from large retailers might have the opposite effect than the one intended. The whole modern mythos of the confederacy is one of exile and loss. People who reminiscence of the "good 'ol days" tell themselves a romantic story of the loss of their way of life and culture (one built upon slavery and brutality - but that is often glossed over). The more the notion of exile and defeat becomes real through making their symbol the target of outrage, the more powerful the myth of the exiled southerner will become. Instead of making the symbol more powerful by fixating on it, perhaps we should be having a conversation about the forms of structural violence which are enacted upon people of color through defunding of public services in low-income neighborhoods, and let people keep buying their confederate flag - at least that way we know who they are.
3
Such ancestral historical pride, regardless of color, has been our downfall and we should be keeping a vision of what legacy we are planning to leave our next generation.
The Confederate flag represents slavery exactly to the same extent the American flag represents the genocide of Native Americans.
15
Ah, here we go. The problem must be South Carolina and that wretched racist flag. Solution in the works.
I am reminded of a Pogo cartoon from 1971 (the year my son was born): "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
When will we ever learn?
I am reminded of a Pogo cartoon from 1971 (the year my son was born): "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
When will we ever learn?
2
This is known further as 'The Enemy Within' and it has been a rough American historical passage. The time for sighing was yesterday. We will never learn, if we keep asking 'when will we ever learn?' and tomorrow is another day.
"For decades, images of the Confederacy have been opposed by people who viewed them as painful symbols of slavery, racism and white dominance . . . "
The NY Times still can't bring itself to to utter the words white supremacy. Who are you afraid of offending? Why are you mincing words?
Be a part of the solution, NY Times. Call white supremacy by its name.
Refer to it as what it is.
The NY Times still can't bring itself to to utter the words white supremacy. Who are you afraid of offending? Why are you mincing words?
Be a part of the solution, NY Times. Call white supremacy by its name.
Refer to it as what it is.
7
For the first time in several years I feel optimistic about change. The horror of Dylan Roof's cold blooded murder of members of a congregation that let him join them for prayer before he mowed them down shocked consciences nationwide, especially after pictures of him posing with Confederate symbols went viral. A few days ago white South Carolinians were defending the flying of the Confederate flag in front of their capitol. Suddenly there's been a change of heart. Sen. Lindsay Graham with whom I've never agreed on anything as far as I can remember, suddenly was speaking thoughtfully and at some length today about why the flag should come down. There's been a sea change, and none too soon. All over the South there's a recognition of the offense that Confederate symbols convey to the rest of the country.
It's late, but never too late. We can't undo the past but those of us who've been horrified in the past year or two about the wanton shooting of young black men should be willing to recognize that maybe the apologists for wanton police power have maybe had enough themselves.
It's late, but never too late. We can't undo the past but those of us who've been horrified in the past year or two about the wanton shooting of young black men should be willing to recognize that maybe the apologists for wanton police power have maybe had enough themselves.
27
What does removing the flag do? Doesn't make a difference if the flag is there or not. The change has to start with the people. Not the Flag.
Symbols are important. Why should any governmental body display this symbol of armed rebellion against the US government in the name of keeping ownership of human beings legal? And the South Carolina practice of flying this flag officially started only in the 1960's, apparently as a statement of defiance, if not disobedience, to the civil rights movement.
And haven't we all had a reeducation in how blacks all over the country are harassed and even outright murdered by the police? Isn't it time for all of us to agree that this must stop?
And haven't we all had a reeducation in how blacks all over the country are harassed and even outright murdered by the police? Isn't it time for all of us to agree that this must stop?
1
"...we just want to fly this flag for family, for Grandpappy."
Who fought for the right to own slaves. Read the document (below) that explains why South Carolina seceded from the Union. It starts out as a manifesto for state sovereignty, but goes on to say that threatening sovereignty threatens the right to keep slaves. Nothing more than that.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp
Who fought for the right to own slaves. Read the document (below) that explains why South Carolina seceded from the Union. It starts out as a manifesto for state sovereignty, but goes on to say that threatening sovereignty threatens the right to keep slaves. Nothing more than that.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp
15
"Just honoring our ancestors" doesn't work for me. Should we have statues, flags and more boulevards named for Klan members? They're part of our history, aren't they? In Germany, what about statues of Hitler and Goering? They're part of history. ... Meaning, let's think with some depth about who we enshrine and what they represent. There are so many black leaders -- and others -- we could honor as we dismantle the influence of whites who repel us now, who taught the hatred and inferiority of others while they had power.
12
If your referring to N.B. Forrest you should do a bit more reading about him. He left the Klan because he disagreed with them and he was one of the first to advocate voting rights and integration of blacks into society. Would recommend reading his speach to the group that evolved into the NAACP when he was given an award for being a friend of the black man. When he passed away over 3000 blacks came to pay their respect. If you ever get the chance to hear Nelson Winbush speak would recommend it. His grandfather was one of the black confederates that rode with Forrest during the war.
Guess we better remove the American flag to!! We don't want to offend anyone now
My grandpappy fought for the Nazis in Germany. That doesn't mean I want to see the Nazi flag hanging next to the German flag in cities around Germany.
24
The Confederacy considered itself to be a foreign nation, alien to the USA. Why would any American State choose to fly the flag of a foreign nation, even a defeated, extinct one?
14
Political correctness has taken this country completely off the rails. Expelling 1st graders for arranging their mashed potatoes in the shape of a gun, arresting mothers for leaving their sleeping children in a car for two minutes while they mail a letter, shutting down a lemonade stand run by two sisters 8 & 7 because they didn't have a permit, suspending a high school student for bringing an extra spicy pepper to the school lunch because someone might burn their tongue.
Listen to yourselves. Vilify the Confederate Battle Flag because of one deranged 21 year old killer. Now I read in these comments that some want to rename streets named after Confederate soldiers. What is next, jail or exile the Daughters of the Confederacy or anyone else that had a confederate soldier in their family. Maybe we should make them wear a small confederate flag pinned to their shirts so we know they are racists by heritage. May be we should annex all the slave states and rewrite the history books so no one that owned slaves can be acknowledged or better yet tear up the Constitution because it was written by slave holders.
Paranoia is sweeping over our country like a plague. If it weren't so sad it would be laughable.
Listen to yourselves. Vilify the Confederate Battle Flag because of one deranged 21 year old killer. Now I read in these comments that some want to rename streets named after Confederate soldiers. What is next, jail or exile the Daughters of the Confederacy or anyone else that had a confederate soldier in their family. Maybe we should make them wear a small confederate flag pinned to their shirts so we know they are racists by heritage. May be we should annex all the slave states and rewrite the history books so no one that owned slaves can be acknowledged or better yet tear up the Constitution because it was written by slave holders.
Paranoia is sweeping over our country like a plague. If it weren't so sad it would be laughable.
10
Having a symbol of slavery as a state's official or semiofficial logo is offensive.
You're the one that sounds paranoid.
It's just an old flag that most people don't like anymore.
Let it go.
It's just an old flag that most people don't like anymore.
Let it go.
Finally, a reasoned comment.
Wow, just look how fast our 'leaders' can move when they feel some urgency, and act in a bipartisan manner.
Now if they only could do that on the other 100 or so urgent issues of the day, like the one that the Pope mentioned recently.
Now if they only could do that on the other 100 or so urgent issues of the day, like the one that the Pope mentioned recently.
31
“People are calling for removing monuments and boulevard names in the name of racial sensitivity? Where does this end?” said Mr. Jones, who was a member of the United States House of Representatives and an actor on “The Dukes of Hazzard” television show. “This is just dividing people like crazy.”
No I will tell you what has been dividing people like crazy, bigotry, hate, white supremacy, suppression of voters rights, that's what is dividing people.
We remember how Jeb! And Katherine Harris purged 92,000 black voters off the voting lists so Jeb! could give his state of Florida to his brother in 2000.
That divided people.
No I will tell you what has been dividing people like crazy, bigotry, hate, white supremacy, suppression of voters rights, that's what is dividing people.
We remember how Jeb! And Katherine Harris purged 92,000 black voters off the voting lists so Jeb! could give his state of Florida to his brother in 2000.
That divided people.
50
Once and for all, Jeb! should be investigated - before he gets anywhere near the White House.
That "election" was a travesty and Jeb! helped enable it.
One shudders to think of the horror and pain that resulted.
That "election" was a travesty and Jeb! helped enable it.
One shudders to think of the horror and pain that resulted.
2
I'm no fan of the Confederate flag, but it didn't kill anyone. A gun did. Shouldn't the national conversation be about gun violence? And why don't these stores who will stop selling the flag do something courageous and real and stop selling guns?
31
I wish it could. But as long as we have Republican presidential cretins who placed ideologues on the Supreme Court to block any reasonable gun control laws, there isn't much chance of ever getting anything done.
This is one case where I'll take my progress where I can get it.
If nothing else, it has tongue tied all the Republican candidates and exposed them as if not haters themselves, tolerators of haters. And all this talk about the Civil War should clarify what it was all about to all the modern-day Southerners who have been lied to who were told anything but that the Civil War was about SLAVERY.
That too would be great progress. It is time we put the Civil War to rest. It has only been 150 years.
This is one case where I'll take my progress where I can get it.
If nothing else, it has tongue tied all the Republican candidates and exposed them as if not haters themselves, tolerators of haters. And all this talk about the Civil War should clarify what it was all about to all the modern-day Southerners who have been lied to who were told anything but that the Civil War was about SLAVERY.
That too would be great progress. It is time we put the Civil War to rest. It has only been 150 years.
1
Republicans have said that it is "too soon" to talk about racism or gun violence.
There are hundreds, if not thousands, of Confederate memorials all around the South. Those memorials arguably represent all the bad things critics of the Confederate Battle Flag say it represents.
Are we supposed to destroy them all?
In any event, it will never happen.
Are we supposed to destroy them all?
In any event, it will never happen.
5
Memorials are not the problem. The problem is the symbolism of the confederate flag and the way it has been used by state governments of the south to keep a war alive that has been dead for 150 years.
Go to your monuments and memorials, but they can offer nothing but cold solace for a cause that by all accounts was one of the most dastardly affairs of humanity.
Slavery. Good god, y'all, what in blazes were you thinking???
Go to your monuments and memorials, but they can offer nothing but cold solace for a cause that by all accounts was one of the most dastardly affairs of humanity.
Slavery. Good god, y'all, what in blazes were you thinking???
1
"There are hundreds, if not thousands, of Confederate memorials all around the South. Those memorials arguably represent all the bad things critics of the Confederate Battle Flag say it represents.
Are we supposed to destroy them all?"
Yes.
Are we supposed to destroy them all?"
Yes.
1
No, we are not and probably wouldn't have destroyed the Confederate Flag if these murders didn't give interest groups a reason to mention it. The Flag killed no one.
This claim, "I had a relative who fought for the South" is meaningless. I too had a great-great-great grandfather, an immigrant from Ireland, who fought for the South in the 1st Tennessee regiment. My other great-great-great-grandfather for the Union in the 151st New York infantry. Their children got together, married, and the result was me, a Southerner, two generations later. Their military service cancels each other out. Most Southerners had relatives who fought for the Union, too. Wonder why they choose to forget that?
7
One military service cannot cancel out another. No one ever said that Southerners want to forget ancestors that fought for the Union, and someone's military service shouldn't be discredited because they are on one side or the other. Leadership and bravery appeared on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line.
Also some who have deep roots in the south view this as a dishonor to their family's sacrifices.
Also some who have deep roots in the south view this as a dishonor to their family's sacrifices.
3
I didn't have any ancestors who fought for the North and I'd be ashamed if I did.
Not so long ago this New Yorker had the visit of a young technician from Alabama and just as I was about to mention that some of my ancestors were from the South, I decided this might be tactless and instead added that I was hoping to visit some day.
True, the only time I felt moved by American history in a more personal familial way was watching the extraordinary PBS series that attracted the attention of many American viewers in the 90s. It was brilliantly researched, haunting, and gave us some valuable insight into the Civil War.
True, the only time I felt moved by American history in a more personal familial way was watching the extraordinary PBS series that attracted the attention of many American viewers in the 90s. It was brilliantly researched, haunting, and gave us some valuable insight into the Civil War.
Well, let's not rush into things. It's only been 150 years.
32
Now that Nikki Haley is leading the fight, we can expect it to get done. She's a great governor!
3
A great governor who last week said she wouldn't raise the question of the flag until after the funerals, because she "wouldn't put the people of South Carolina through that" while they're grieving. A great governor who said last year that she had no interest in removing the flag because "not one CEO" had mentioned it to her. She may or may not be a great politician, but she's a lousy leader.
1
You have a remarkably low standard for "great". Though I daresay that from the perspective of Texas, almost anything would be an improvement.
The Confederate Flag is the equivalent of a Dixie swastika. Germany prohibited the swastika years ago. What's wrong with the Americans who want to keep a symbol of slavery?
42
I am all for removal of the confederate flag and symbol wherever it exists, but I fear that all focus on the confederate flag is a distraction from the issue of gun control. It's much easier for our politicians to focus on the flag than on meaningful steps to prevent future massacres.
38
Yes, the point of this "flag" theater is to distract from the questions of racism and gun violence. Republicans have determined that it is "too soon" to discuss those issues. Guess we have to wait 150 years.
This is a feeding frenzy of cultural cleansing,” said Ben Jones, the chief of heritage operations for the Sons of Confederate Veterans, a Tennessee-based group. “It’s an hysteria — we just want to fly this flag for family, for Grandpappy. This whole thing is basically insulting and demeaning our respect for our ancestors.”
Ben, your culture needs cleaning. Desperately.
Your ancestors fought to maintain slavery.
Not really sure why that's ok with you or why you think state governments should go along with it.
Ben, your culture needs cleaning. Desperately.
Your ancestors fought to maintain slavery.
Not really sure why that's ok with you or why you think state governments should go along with it.
34
Plain and simple after 150 years it's time to take it down and move on. Nothing good can come of keeping it flying, anywhere in this country
24
What does it change if it comes down? Nothing.. Lol all of this is stupid. Might as well take down the American flag to. Since its hated by many people And countries right?
After the 1961 Civil Rights Act, Southern Democrats became Republicans.
Ronald Reagon had nothing to do with this. He was an actor back then and not elected President for another 20 years.
The South has always Despised President Lincoln for freeing their free economic way of life..Slavery
There are NO Statues of President Lincoln in the South.
Ronald Reagon had nothing to do with this. He was an actor back then and not elected President for another 20 years.
The South has always Despised President Lincoln for freeing their free economic way of life..Slavery
There are NO Statues of President Lincoln in the South.
11
Reagan actually was vociferously against the Civil Rights Act when it passed in 1964 as a private citizen and as governor of CA. Somewhere there exists a phonograph record he made on the topic long before he was president. As president he tried to relax some of it's provisions citing that favorite right wing canard about states rights. Definitely not a lot if any monuments to Lincoln in the south.
I am a native Mississippian and currently a professor of political science, and this is my argument for why it's time to change the Mississippi state flag: http://www.clarionledger.com/videos/news/2015/06/23/29172915/
2
"...reminders of generations-long Southern pride"
Reminders of what exactly? Mint juleps? Spanish moss? Tarheels? Alligators? Cotton? Humidity? Deep fried turkey?
The battle flag of the Confederate States of America is the most potent symbol of racism that country has to offer. It memorializes the dissolution of the union, a bloody war to defend a perverse right to keep slaves, and a long history of racism and repression following the war, the fruits of which the south - and the nation - are still reaping. There is nothing warm and fuzzy about it.
Reminders of what exactly? Mint juleps? Spanish moss? Tarheels? Alligators? Cotton? Humidity? Deep fried turkey?
The battle flag of the Confederate States of America is the most potent symbol of racism that country has to offer. It memorializes the dissolution of the union, a bloody war to defend a perverse right to keep slaves, and a long history of racism and repression following the war, the fruits of which the south - and the nation - are still reaping. There is nothing warm and fuzzy about it.
14
Ask the American Indians how they feel about the US flag .
It is probably a potent symbol of racism to them.
It is probably a potent symbol of racism to them.
This is way too simple. We are only removing a symbol. Hearts and minds are another matter.
4
Polls show that the confederate flag is not a big issue for most Americans. It's primarily an issue for blacks and liberals.
Moving the flag in South Carolina is a symbolic gesture but one that will convey empathy and respect after this tragedy. That makes its move far more significant than if it had been done through a nasty bruising legal battle or potentially bankrupting boycotts.
Moving the flag in South Carolina is a symbolic gesture but one that will convey empathy and respect after this tragedy. That makes its move far more significant than if it had been done through a nasty bruising legal battle or potentially bankrupting boycotts.
4
Even neo-cons feel some empathy for blacks this week. It's good to see.
1
David Henry
It may seem simple, but even removing a symbol that today is representative of hate is not easy. It is a first step, it is a beginning, and it is up to us to continue to go forth in the light of the day.
It may seem simple, but even removing a symbol that today is representative of hate is not easy. It is a first step, it is a beginning, and it is up to us to continue to go forth in the light of the day.
"It is surprising in the sense that there have been calls for this for years. But it took this tragedy to spur this type of change.”
while I applaud the change of heart, I wish the same outpouring of outrage and grief after the Newtown massacre of innocent children, had produced the same outcome - remove the availability of guns from ordinary citizens.
Enough killing of innocents.
Enough senseless murders.
Enough with Second Amendment arguments - guns are for police and military in this day and age.
while I applaud the change of heart, I wish the same outpouring of outrage and grief after the Newtown massacre of innocent children, had produced the same outcome - remove the availability of guns from ordinary citizens.
Enough killing of innocents.
Enough senseless murders.
Enough with Second Amendment arguments - guns are for police and military in this day and age.
16
People keep asking: once the confederate flag is Eli instead from government buildings, from a state flag, from stores and license plates, then what?
1. Keep up the pressure till the Confederate flags on public property are gone.
2. Next a campaign to rollback voter suppression laws and enact voting reforms: voting holidays, especially for national office; early voting; voting by mail; easier registration; short lines at all polling places' etc. ALL of these are civil rights issues. Vote suppression is another form of racism, so it has to go!
3. VOTE! The racist, terrorist murders of nine prayerful people meeting on hallowed ground MUST not be forgotten or have been in vain. Make their martyrdom matter on every Election Day. They can no longer vote. Make sure you do! Make sure 9 others vote too!
4. Once we regain and expand voting rights and End Vote Suppression, then we may be in better shape to tackle gun control. Make the goals clear.
5. Keep up the pressure. Boycott if necessary. Keep your eye on the ball.
6. Make sure we are inclusive. Every step of the way.
Some of us are old, like myself. But among the nine who died, one was 87. The youngest who died was 26. Our black brothers and sisters must not have died in vain.
1. Keep up the pressure till the Confederate flags on public property are gone.
2. Next a campaign to rollback voter suppression laws and enact voting reforms: voting holidays, especially for national office; early voting; voting by mail; easier registration; short lines at all polling places' etc. ALL of these are civil rights issues. Vote suppression is another form of racism, so it has to go!
3. VOTE! The racist, terrorist murders of nine prayerful people meeting on hallowed ground MUST not be forgotten or have been in vain. Make their martyrdom matter on every Election Day. They can no longer vote. Make sure you do! Make sure 9 others vote too!
4. Once we regain and expand voting rights and End Vote Suppression, then we may be in better shape to tackle gun control. Make the goals clear.
5. Keep up the pressure. Boycott if necessary. Keep your eye on the ball.
6. Make sure we are inclusive. Every step of the way.
Some of us are old, like myself. But among the nine who died, one was 87. The youngest who died was 26. Our black brothers and sisters must not have died in vain.
30
Or just out work and out educate your children to beat the competition?
Nine people have been murdered. Their death is not in vain, and let us remember their families and loved ones during this time of loss.
1
Wisdom from an elder's life experience MUST be seriously considered and acted on.
1
I hope this "rebel flag" debate isn't a distraction from the more important discussion of how to address the racial divide in our country...
6
There's not much difference in what the Stars and Bars represent and what the Swastika represents (in fact many white supremacist groups have adopted both standards as their symbol). You can't fly the flag of the Third Reich in Germany and you shouldn't be able to fly the flag of the Confederacy here. It' just as offensive and it only represents those who at the time, espoused the same evil with the flimsy disguise of fighting for "State's Rights". It's time for the South to rise again but this time by doing the right thing.
22
Once again, it took threats by megacorporations to pull out to actually prompt action. *shrugs* Whatever it takes, I guess... I sure wish people would do the right thing even when a financial interest isn't involved.
7
Take down a symbol of treason and man's inhumanity to man? What's the hurry?
3
Let us PLEASE do something concrete, not just symbolic: gun control
6
Take away the guns from criminals then I will give up mine
1
Inasmuch as there is no one around today who lived in the Confederacy or fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War I don't see the fascination with flying the Confederate flag unless you have a problem with black people.
I don't see descendants of the nazi Germans flying the Swastika.
I don't see descendants of the nazi Germans flying the Swastika.
14
Should France eliminate all remnants of Napoleon? After all, he was defeated, and his conquerors believe he was responsible for continent-wide war that killed millions. Moreover, trans-Atlantic slavery was invented and carried out mostly by Europeans not Americans. Should the UK, Spain, Portugal, and France eliminate all symbols of the monarchies that ruled during those times?
This whole thing is the PC witch-hunt du jour.
This whole thing is the PC witch-hunt du jour.
9
Food for thought, though!
Please tell me you're kidding. You don't see any difference between a Confederate battle flag and the fleur de lis? This isn't a witch hunt du jour, it's a reckoning that is long overdue. And - in case it matters - I'd lay money on it: my Confederate ancestor outranked yours.
PC witch-hunt du jour. Says it all. Thank you.
The South Shall Never Rise Again. Period. Almost one million Americans died ensuring that the South didn't have it's way when it came to cessation and slavery and they shouldn't have the racist banner they fought under either. It's true time heals all wounds. Turns out time when speaking of our civil war is over 150 years plus now. Hopefully we'll have the North/South divide and racism behind us by the time we reach 250 years post civil war. Truly we as a Nation are going through a healing process until this day.
7
Many folks in the Deep South and in rural areas of the border states are not fond of Northerners. They think Northerners are obnoxious, think they know everything, think they're superior, and are inclined to lecture Southerners about how they should live their lives. Reviewing the comments here, these Southerners are absolutely right.
11
Yes, their insufferable attitude toward southerners just makes the flag problem worse. They should just be quiet. They do more harm than good and are of no help to southerners who do actually have an interest in the flag's removal.
5
Northerners are not flying the flag symbolizing the failed attempted to break up the United States and the right t own human beings. That says it all.
'...Many folks in the Deep South and in rural areas of the border states are not fond of Northerners...'
They just like our money and, like all freeloaders, spend their energy biting the hand that feeds them, rather than taking care of their own business.
They just like our money and, like all freeloaders, spend their energy biting the hand that feeds them, rather than taking care of their own business.
2
The official measures and the decisions by the large retailers will have no effect on the individual's choice to display the flag. Indeed the backlash is certain. More people will display it. More of them say openly that they're flying this banner because it's disturbing to people who view it as an emblem of hate. They'll say that's exactly the message they want to send.
These open displays of malice will be like ugly lesions on the GOP. The embarrassed Republican leaders will be required to explain, embrace, or rationalize them, but they can't pretend any longer. They have to admit that that significant numbers of furious Conservative voters are filled with rancor towards other Americans, and that the worst of them like Dylann Roof are acting on the rage that the Right has cultivated for years.
Let the sales of these flags multiply. Let us see the face of the far Right. Let us hear its voice. Let the dog whistle be taken from them and let Republican leaders be judged for the clear candid expressions of their base.
These open displays of malice will be like ugly lesions on the GOP. The embarrassed Republican leaders will be required to explain, embrace, or rationalize them, but they can't pretend any longer. They have to admit that that significant numbers of furious Conservative voters are filled with rancor towards other Americans, and that the worst of them like Dylann Roof are acting on the rage that the Right has cultivated for years.
Let the sales of these flags multiply. Let us see the face of the far Right. Let us hear its voice. Let the dog whistle be taken from them and let Republican leaders be judged for the clear candid expressions of their base.
9
I think the word you want is "reactionary" or "ultraconservative" or "ultra-right-wing" or "extremist" as opposed to regular, traditional free-market conservatives in the tradition of William F Buckley, Bush senior, Reagan, Goldwater, Romney. I'm no expert, but the term "conservative" just doesn't describe Roof or the man in Norway four years ago who shot 70 teens.
When was the last time anyone has seen a confederate flag at Walmart --or anywhere, its a national movement against a couple of monuments and the never before heard of until now sons now grandpas of confederate veterans -- the protesters may as well be holding advertising signs as the sale of flags on the internet are at "unprecedented" levels
1
I'm so sick of seeing the Confederate battle flag referred to as the symbol of a noble heritage. States rights? Sure, the right to own slaves. Exactly how were the Confederate soldiers more noble than the millions of German soldiers who bravely fought and died for their homeland in WWII? The Third Reich built the first modern superhighways and advanced rocket science so that we can have the modern space program. Yet no one, except for a few characters about as savory as Mr. Roof, suggests that Germany should fly the swastika flag to celebrate their noble heritage. The Confederate flag should join the Nazi flag in the dustbin of history.
26
Put the US flag in there too.
Why are you all so upset by slavery but not the genocide of the American Indian? Why doesn't that matter?
Why are you all so upset by slavery but not the genocide of the American Indian? Why doesn't that matter?
Open Letter to Volvo !!!
Volvo recent;y announced plans to build a Multi-Million Dollar auto plant in South Carolina !!!
We URGE Volvo to re-consider this move until the Confederate Flag is removed from the South Carolina State Capitol.
Potential Volvo car buyers citywide,statewide,nationwide and worldwide will be Watching.
The FIRST shot in the Civil War was fired in the State of South Carolina.
Volvo recent;y announced plans to build a Multi-Million Dollar auto plant in South Carolina !!!
We URGE Volvo to re-consider this move until the Confederate Flag is removed from the South Carolina State Capitol.
Potential Volvo car buyers citywide,statewide,nationwide and worldwide will be Watching.
The FIRST shot in the Civil War was fired in the State of South Carolina.
14
All good- testament to the power of of the people. At the same time we Americans excel at putting up stop signs after someone has been run over. I'm tired of the roadkill: this carnage must stop. Amend the Second Amendment: ban all assault weapons and handguns. Stop the bloodbath that is Americans shooting Americans. If we can vanquish Dixie in a week, anything is possible.
12
Isn't the larger issue the availability of guns without any sort of scrutiny? There will always be disenfranchised people, but they needn't be armed. Doesn't everyone have a favorite cause or emotional attachment to something without entertaining the notion of shooting and killing the opposition? And as far as the symbolism of the "southern flag" is concerned, I think its abolition is a convenient and simplistic diversion. I'll bet the NRA and their congressional supporters love it. The massacre at Sandy Hook was never appropriately addressed...no flags were involved, conveniently, to blame for such a tragedy.
8
If we examine what the Republican Party believes in it is quite similar to what the Confederacy believed in: from states rights versus federalism to maintaining the plantation mentality; i.e. a large undereducated labor force - to do the dirty work, and a small group of power brokers that call the shots. This explains why the Republican Party is against raising the minimum wage, against welfare, against the ACA, and against unions. It also explains why they believe that less taxes for the rich will somehow trickle down to the poor, the workers. It explains why corporations like slave owners should have the authority to determine wage, equal or unequal pay for equal work, who gets educated and who can't afford it and who gets health care and who pays. So, the Confederate flag is really a symbol that the south intends to rise again and reclaim the values they fought and died for 150 years ago.
9
The Confederste flag symbolizes an illegal and unconstitutional attempt to seceede from the Union in order to preserve the immoral ,evil institution of Slavery this symbol belongs not in a museum. But in the gutter
4
I am sure many Indians think the US flag should be in the gutter too.
I am not sure that slavery really surpasses the wholesale slaughter and stealing of land from the Indians.
I am not sure that slavery really surpasses the wholesale slaughter and stealing of land from the Indians.
1
The American flag will come next. Wearing an American Flag lapel pin is already considered a "micro-aggression" in any liberal work setting.
2
Simply not true, sir.
1
Yes. That's right: next thing you know, Mitt Romney will argue that the US flag has to go.
Please.
Please.
1
“Our ancestors were literally fighting to keep human beings as slaves, and to continue the unimaginable acts that occur when someone is held against their will,” said State Senator Paul Thurmond, a Republican, explaining that he would vote to remove the flag.
“I am not proud of this heritage,” said Mr. Thurmond, the son of Strom Thurmond, the former governor and United States senator who was a segregationist candidate for president in 1948.
And in Mississippi, the state’s House speaker, Philip Gunn, a Republican, called for taking a Confederate battle cross off the upper corner of his state’s flag, the only remaining state banner to display the emblem.
“We must always remember our past, but that does not mean we must let it define us,” Mr. Gunn said in a statement that stunned many in Jackson, the capital, and was seen as adding a highly fraught issue with statewide elections there this year. “As a Christian, I believe our state’s flag has become a point of offense that needs to be removed,” Mr. Gunn said.
“I am not proud of this heritage,” said Mr. Thurmond, the son of Strom Thurmond, the former governor and United States senator who was a segregationist candidate for president in 1948.
And in Mississippi, the state’s House speaker, Philip Gunn, a Republican, called for taking a Confederate battle cross off the upper corner of his state’s flag, the only remaining state banner to display the emblem.
“We must always remember our past, but that does not mean we must let it define us,” Mr. Gunn said in a statement that stunned many in Jackson, the capital, and was seen as adding a highly fraught issue with statewide elections there this year. “As a Christian, I believe our state’s flag has become a point of offense that needs to be removed,” Mr. Gunn said.
8
Nathan Hale would be very proud of this republic. Americans are resilient and by voting to remove this awful flag, we're telling the world we can work things out favorably.
5
The Confederacy lost the war and put away their flag only to dust it off and erect it again 200 years later as an afront. Can you tell me what other country would allow that to happen without consequences?
3
Um, it hasn't been two hundred years since the Civil War. I think you mean one hundred years later (ninety, actually...), when Civil Rights legislation began to pass.
So people want the confederate flag placed in museums because of what it represents. Well why don't we take down all the USA flags and put them in museums. After all, to Native Americans that flag represents the nation that not only took over their land and forced them onto reservations, but massacred them numerous times, and decimated their population. What happened to Native Americans has even been called a holocaust by some historians. So why aren't we pushing to take down the flag that was responsible for so many deaths. And we are forgetting the union, while against slavery, considered black people to be lower then white people. But we don't complain about that, or the fact that the union fought under the American flag. Some people couldn't use common sense if you hit them in the face with a guide book.
1
The Native Indians do not want our shallow pity. They need money and are the poorest in our Nation. Let us not use these buried hearts at Wounded Knee as a hollow reminder of atrocities of the past. It is talking turkey and although I know little of American history, I believe we have a national stamp of the first woman who unfolded the first American Flag.
America latching onto an issue that has nothing to do with the shooting. Surprise, surprise.
Does anyone actually think this mass shooting was made possible because of a piece of fabric? What has happened to reason and logic?
The flag shouldn't be flown on governmental buildings, but this also should not be the story.
Does anyone actually think this mass shooting was made possible because of a piece of fabric? What has happened to reason and logic?
The flag shouldn't be flown on governmental buildings, but this also should not be the story.
6
Now let's follow with calls to drop the NRA emblem on our national and state capital.
9
That flag is a symbol of racial slavery; of violently forcing other human beings to be your property and do work for you for free, against their will. It is abhorrent and shameful beyond belief. No reasonable person can be proud of that history.
If you want to honor your ancestors, buy an Ancestry.com membership and print out a book or a family tree posted. Leave the terrorist symbols of the darkest time of Southern history buried -where they belong.
If you want to honor your ancestors, buy an Ancestry.com membership and print out a book or a family tree posted. Leave the terrorist symbols of the darkest time of Southern history buried -where they belong.
7
Finally America has seen the light. Ban the banners, problem solved.
3
As long as that flag is prominently and proudly displayed, the road to peace is still blocked. There can only be ONE American Flag. Live with it.
5
“This is just dividing people like crazy.”
The funny thing is, Mr. Jones is dead wrong. This is UNITING people like crazy -- people from all of the country saying, "Yeah, we agree: it's time for this symbol to go." I never would have expected it, but this is something we as a country have finally come together on.
The funny thing is, Mr. Jones is dead wrong. This is UNITING people like crazy -- people from all of the country saying, "Yeah, we agree: it's time for this symbol to go." I never would have expected it, but this is something we as a country have finally come together on.
9
I grew up in North Carolina. In the North Carolina history course I was required to take in the '50's our state's contribution to the confederacy was glorified/mythologized by the quote "First (to die) at Manassas, farthest (to penetrate Northern lines) at Gettysburg, last (to lay down arms) at Appomattox." And there was further glorification for NC providing one-seventh of all the confederate soldiers (thanks to the efforts of war governor Z.B. Vance), which came about in part due to conscription of primarily poor rural men who had no dog in that fight. My great-great grandfather was murdered by a conscription gang flying the same flag that he refused to fight under.
That flag represents one thing: treason against the United States of America in order to preserve an economy built on the back of human bondage. Calling the war one to preserve "states' rights" or saying the flag honors those who died changes not a word of that representation. Damn that flag and all it represents.
That flag represents one thing: treason against the United States of America in order to preserve an economy built on the back of human bondage. Calling the war one to preserve "states' rights" or saying the flag honors those who died changes not a word of that representation. Damn that flag and all it represents.
31
Also a native tarheel now far away--I remember learning the same history in the 70s and 80s. Couldn't agree more, though I've always seen our state as a step ahead of our neighbors across the line.
The removal of the flag in South Carolina would be an act of solidarity with, and respect for, those black families and their fellow parishioners mourning their dead. It would be an act of compassion meeting their own acts of great dignity and grace, a coming together of the state's residents.
If only the interference from, and politicization by, outsiders, who have no interest and little understanding of the flag and its heritage, could cease. This meddling produces the exact opposite effect, stiffening the resolve of the flag supporters.
If only the interference from, and politicization by, outsiders, who have no interest and little understanding of the flag and its heritage, could cease. This meddling produces the exact opposite effect, stiffening the resolve of the flag supporters.
2
Everyone understands this flag's history.
That's why there is a rush to get rid of it.
It carries the stink of slavery, death, destruction, whippings, insurrection, treason, war, Jim Crow, the KKK, the poll tax, lynchings and now murders.
Your plea for outsiders to stop meddling is the same delay tactic southerners have whined for decades, hoping it would blow over.
You're a Confederate apologist.
We get it.
That's why there is a rush to get rid of it.
It carries the stink of slavery, death, destruction, whippings, insurrection, treason, war, Jim Crow, the KKK, the poll tax, lynchings and now murders.
Your plea for outsiders to stop meddling is the same delay tactic southerners have whined for decades, hoping it would blow over.
You're a Confederate apologist.
We get it.
Dave T.:
I'm not a Confederate apologist. Just someone observing how the barrage of insults does more harm than good.
Nor am I calling for a delay but, rather, applauding progress and recognizing that it is occurring precisely because parties are coming together, with compassion and respect, rather than being further divided by ugly charges of "racism", "KKK", etc.
I'm not a Confederate apologist. Just someone observing how the barrage of insults does more harm than good.
Nor am I calling for a delay but, rather, applauding progress and recognizing that it is occurring precisely because parties are coming together, with compassion and respect, rather than being further divided by ugly charges of "racism", "KKK", etc.
2
It is interesting to note that one of the greatest President's in America was Abraham Lincoln, a Republican. However he is rarely mentioned by Republicans in todays political campaigns - why? If you didn't know your history you would think Ronald Reagan was the founder of the party. In fact, Ronald Reagan probably marks the time when the two parties swapped ideologies. The tragedy that took place in Charlestown is exposing today's Republican Party for what it is and what it represents, and today's party is surely not the party of Lincoln, but more likely the party of Jefferson Davis.
30
Lincoln was a long time ago. The republican part of Lincoln is not connected in any way with the republican party of Ted Cruz and Dylann Roof. In fact, it has very little connection with the republican party of Eisenhower or Rockefeller. The current party is a mutant that stole the name.
@ Stevenz I think it's wrong to say Cruz and Roof in the same breath. And I say this as an old liberal. That kind of exaggerating does
nothing to raise the level of the debate. Nowhere in the "manifesto" does Roof praise Republicans. This is the same kind of distortion that leads Cruz and Pallin to call Obama a Kenyan and a Bolshevik.
nothing to raise the level of the debate. Nowhere in the "manifesto" does Roof praise Republicans. This is the same kind of distortion that leads Cruz and Pallin to call Obama a Kenyan and a Bolshevik.
"we just want to fly this flag for family, for grandpappy"
Grandpappy? The war ended 150 years ago!
Grandpappy? The war ended 150 years ago!
13
He means "grandfather". He refers to "ancestors" in the next sentence. So what is your point?
Quote from article for context: '[Ben Jones said,] “It’s an hysteria — we just want to fly this flag for family, for Grandpappy. This whole thing is basically insulting and demeaning our respect for our ancestors.”'
Quote from article for context: '[Ben Jones said,] “It’s an hysteria — we just want to fly this flag for family, for Grandpappy. This whole thing is basically insulting and demeaning our respect for our ancestors.”'
Being a German American, I have many family members who were Nazis. I would never fly a Nazi flag to honor them. I see my progenitors' bigotry as something to avoid, not to celebrate. It's not just about when an event occurred, but also what that event inherently means--particularly in terms of human rights.
2
Grandpappy is the one who put it up there on the Capital in 1962 in the first place as a white supremacist message to resist the civil rights and votering rights movement.
3
When my family moved to the South a couple of decades ago, there was still a lot of talk about North and South as though they were separate countries and, yes, there was still resentment of Yankees. This I found surprising, since the South hadn't much occupied the thoughts of my neighbors in the North. Over time, I've come to love the New South for its friendly people and more temperate (at least where I live) climate. As a Southern resident, if not a Southerner, I've tired of the weary media caricatures of the South that little resemble the way things are now and hope that that will eventually change. To most of us, it will make no difference because we don't own one, let alone fly it or display it, but the Confederate flag has been transformed from a heritage symbol, if it ever was just that, to a symbol of hatred and disunity, and should be consigned to the past.
12
You've grown tired of the weary media caricatures of the South? Well nine African Americans were shot dead by a White supremacist at their church. That's not a caricature. That is murder.
@CM: "To most of us, it will make no difference because we don't own one, let alone fly it or display it, ..."
Display of the Confederate flag by individuals is protected by the First Amendment. The removals affect displays at state capitol buildings and on state flags.
Display of the Confederate flag by individuals is protected by the First Amendment. The removals affect displays at state capitol buildings and on state flags.
I'm not attached to the issue of the Confederate flag, but I do know that a lot of people like to rewrite history.
3
Taking that flag down will heal our hearts after this senseless and truly thoughtless act.
The confederate flag has now become the symbol of thoughtless, selfish, unthinking, irrational hatred. It's time to put the flag in a museum.
The confederate flag has now become the symbol of thoughtless, selfish, unthinking, irrational hatred. It's time to put the flag in a museum.
1
Those who support the Confederate Flag say it's to preserve their heritage. What heritage? The "heritage" the flag represents is the one built on the backs of slaves. Without slaves the south would still be a sleepy swampland. Southerners would do well to remember that when they sit on their verandas and sip their mint juleps.
10
Please understand this. The action against flying the Battle Flag of the Confederacy will insure those that support the principles that it represents will turn out at the polls. If you really want to bury those principles, please, please, please register and vote in 2016.
8
Unfortunately, the flag, no matter how offensive, is a freedom of expression, and if South Carolina wishes to fly it, South Carolina is free to express their history, which includes slavery.
That is the sticky part about the constitution: one cannot nit-pick what parts he or she doesn't like. Expression is expression. However, with that freedom, South Carolina also takes on a lot of responsibility when events like this happen. If they choose to continue to fly it.
Walmart, etc, should not quiet expression by removing the products from their stores. If I wish to buy the confederate flag and wear it I should have that right.
That is the sticky part about the constitution: one cannot nit-pick what parts he or she doesn't like. Expression is expression. However, with that freedom, South Carolina also takes on a lot of responsibility when events like this happen. If they choose to continue to fly it.
Walmart, etc, should not quiet expression by removing the products from their stores. If I wish to buy the confederate flag and wear it I should have that right.
5
@scott-
I don't know where you went to school, but this has nothing to do with freedom of expression or speech, no one is legally telling South Carolina, and I wish you and the other types that cry 'freedom of speech' when something is controversial would read what the first amendment is about, if someone made it a crime to display the flag then yes, it would be, but here people are pressuring the government to take down the flag, which is a constitutional right, known as redress of grievances. South Carolina has the right to fly the flag, but not the right to fly it and not be criticized for it.
As far as Walmart goes, while I think their decision reeks of PR, especially since the Walton family are notorious for their support of "states rights' and 'southern pride' and whatnot, but stores have the right to determine what is appropriate to sell, whether it is cigarettes or certain types of clothing, and not selling it has nothing to do with your right to wear the flag or whatnot, you can always find some place to buy it or make your own.
I don't know where you went to school, but this has nothing to do with freedom of expression or speech, no one is legally telling South Carolina, and I wish you and the other types that cry 'freedom of speech' when something is controversial would read what the first amendment is about, if someone made it a crime to display the flag then yes, it would be, but here people are pressuring the government to take down the flag, which is a constitutional right, known as redress of grievances. South Carolina has the right to fly the flag, but not the right to fly it and not be criticized for it.
As far as Walmart goes, while I think their decision reeks of PR, especially since the Walton family are notorious for their support of "states rights' and 'southern pride' and whatnot, but stores have the right to determine what is appropriate to sell, whether it is cigarettes or certain types of clothing, and not selling it has nothing to do with your right to wear the flag or whatnot, you can always find some place to buy it or make your own.
3
And if they don't want to sell it, they have that right.
Individuals should be free to fly the confederate flag, but not state govts. Govts represent all the people, which just happens to include minorities oppressed in the past and/or present.
1
This shouldn't even be a matter of debate. That is its importance. Yes, it's 'just' a symbol. A symbol of denial even of the fact that the shooter wears its color and claims its ideals as his own. It's a symbol that the Republicans are running away from like an accident involving their clown car primary that accepted maximum contributions from Holt III right along with Koch.
The racists are right, the violence shouldn't be linked to the flag - their use of the flag as a symbol consciously to seduce and incite the violence every bit as much as ISIS uses its symbols and rhetoric should be linked to them and they should be held accountable. The flag is the flag of a defeated and moribund evil nation that was vanquished in 1865.
The racists are right, the violence shouldn't be linked to the flag - their use of the flag as a symbol consciously to seduce and incite the violence every bit as much as ISIS uses its symbols and rhetoric should be linked to them and they should be held accountable. The flag is the flag of a defeated and moribund evil nation that was vanquished in 1865.
14
A true Southerner - one who is proud of and honored by the multitude of intellectual achievements, cultural legacies, culinary contributions, artistic, musical and literary heritage of the incredible cities, towns, people and landscapes of this diverse region - has always been disgusted by the Confederate flag and those who fly it, as doing so simply lacks class and taste.
16
The confederate flag is a disguise for promoting slavery. The Grand No Party aka today's KKk blocked elimination of of the flag or related symbols for many years. Rather they made the pathetic KKK criminals national heroes. Now we are close to the 2016 Pesidential election and we are hearing a different tune. One would wonder where they were hiding all these years. Hope people won't fall for crocodile tears. The best lesson for them is to give them a landslide defeat in 2016.
4
I would be more impressed if I hear these pro-Confederate flag arguments from real veterans. But then they would have to be almost 200 years old. Clearly, in the South, being connected to Confederate causes benefits some people. They need to be shown the cost will be too high. You want to do business with the Yankees then drop the racism.
3
I support removing the Confederate battle flag from South Carolina's Capitol grounds. But where do we stop: Do we need to rename the state and city of Washington, given his involvement with slavery?
8
Surely you can use reason and logic better than that.
False equivalency. While Washington was a slave owner, he was also our first president. The confederate flag, on the other hand, symbolizes an act of sedition against our country. I would hardly call banning the confederate flag the same thing as banning our country's forefathers from being geographic namesakes.
“This is a feeding frenzy of cultural cleansing,” said Ben Jones, the chief of heritage operations for the Sons of Confederate Veterans, a Tennessee-based group.
To the above I say: "live with it". History is written by the victors. And that which is written survives if it is indeed right. Otherwise it dies in the next round. But this won't.
To the above I say: "live with it". History is written by the victors. And that which is written survives if it is indeed right. Otherwise it dies in the next round. But this won't.
1
I support this, but it's beginning to remind me of a campaign that gives legitimacy to "trigger warnings". It's awfully hypocritical for businesses to drop the now unpopular confederate flag, but still sell other flags that are largely offensive.
3
@TC: "[Businesses] still sell other flags that are largely offensive."
Such as?
Such as?
It's great to get rid of the symbols of racism. Let's clean our hearts and minds of bigotry.
7
"...the state’s lieutenant governor, Tate Reeves, asserted in a statement that the violence in Charleston should not be linked to a flag. 'What happened in Charleston is simply pure irrational evil,' he said. 'There is no other description for this monster’s actions. ...'"
When white people commit acts of terrorism, the right gets their nickers in a twist and ascribe all manner of metaphysical and psychological explanations, but never the one that is right under their nose, even as, in this case, the killer expressly and specifically said what the reason was: an adherence to a systemic ideology of racial superiority, symbolized most prominently by the Confederate flag.
Those why say that the flag is a symbol of cultural heritage are myopically disingenuous at best: would Germany ever say that a display of the Nazi flag on government property is a "display of cultural heritage"?
We won the Civil War: in my view, the display of the flag is an invitation to terrorize and therefore treasonous. Dylann Roof accepted the invitation. The only wonder s that it did not happen sooner.
When white people commit acts of terrorism, the right gets their nickers in a twist and ascribe all manner of metaphysical and psychological explanations, but never the one that is right under their nose, even as, in this case, the killer expressly and specifically said what the reason was: an adherence to a systemic ideology of racial superiority, symbolized most prominently by the Confederate flag.
Those why say that the flag is a symbol of cultural heritage are myopically disingenuous at best: would Germany ever say that a display of the Nazi flag on government property is a "display of cultural heritage"?
We won the Civil War: in my view, the display of the flag is an invitation to terrorize and therefore treasonous. Dylann Roof accepted the invitation. The only wonder s that it did not happen sooner.
26
The same could be said for the left in defensive reaction to any islamic linked terrorism.
We need to stop being so divisive to one another, particularly left and right. Recognize that both sides have faults and commit basically the same errors.
We need to stop being so divisive to one another, particularly left and right. Recognize that both sides have faults and commit basically the same errors.
2
I don't see a systemic defense on the left of Islamic terrorism, the way the right is systemically and on cue deploying all manner of talking points to try to say that this young man's acts have nothing to do with beliefs that they may actually hold themselves.
1
I welcome the removal of the Stars and Bars from public places. Unfortunately it does little in the fight against racism and the easy access to guns.
9
I understand how this flag means many things to Southern people. Being an American citizen is not easy. There are many sides to our history. I feel that America may be a testing ground for what it takes, and what it mens, to be engaged in a democratic republic. Our Constitution is challenged, and challenges us, every day, across time and through history. Perhaps this battle flag is best privately displayed. Maybe African Americans need to hold to the idea that the past has been proved, and the flag is just a printed fabric. As citizens, they have a say about their lives, which should be steady and clear. In time, we all will hear, and heed.
5
Our Constitution was broken completely by the present President of the United States. Unfortunately, we citizens have to obey all laws, but the White House Occupants have, and do, break any laws they wish.
The people (aka Presidential candidates) that are saying that it is up to the people of South Carolina or any other state to decide what they should do with a Confederate flag are just aiding and abetting the racism and the values that the Confederacy tried to foster (slavery, militaristic practices and oppression). Saying the Civil War was fought for states rights and not for slavery is just a veiled argument for defending the existence of slavery. States rights have been used to defend slavery, segregation and voter suppression. Yet those who defend this practice continue to use the states rights argument as a rationale for keeping the flag.
The South is still fighting the "war of northern aggression"...
The flag should have been retired a long time ago...but ignorance and social values still are stuck in the 19th century.
Shame on us....
The South is still fighting the "war of northern aggression"...
The flag should have been retired a long time ago...but ignorance and social values still are stuck in the 19th century.
Shame on us....
15
The flag should not be retired, it should be buried. Every street name in every city in the South with the name of a confederate leader should be renamed. Every military base holding the name of a confederate leader should be renamed.
3
You can't deny that objectively, there are a lot of historical evidence that points to the fact that it was in part due to states rights.
Some examples:
1) Emancipation did not free northern slaves.
2) Northern states did not abolish slavery on their own
3) The state of WV broke off from VA but still maintained slavery
4) It was not uncommon for citizens of northern border states to fight for the south, and vice versa.
I'm not sure why you disagree on why it was about states rights. It was in fact about states rights, these confederate states fought for their state's right to own slaves. As horrible as that is, it's still an accurate statement, and accurately shows the savagery in the south's motives. Think about that.
Some examples:
1) Emancipation did not free northern slaves.
2) Northern states did not abolish slavery on their own
3) The state of WV broke off from VA but still maintained slavery
4) It was not uncommon for citizens of northern border states to fight for the south, and vice versa.
I'm not sure why you disagree on why it was about states rights. It was in fact about states rights, these confederate states fought for their state's right to own slaves. As horrible as that is, it's still an accurate statement, and accurately shows the savagery in the south's motives. Think about that.
It wasn't about States rights, fundamentally the civil war boiled down not just to slavery in the old south, but the expansion of slavery, What the confederacy was fighting for was the expansion of slavery, because a lot more money was made selling slaves into new territories then in producing crops with them. Once the emancipation proclamation was signed it was totally about slavery, by that point the only requirement for the southern states to return to the union was to swear allegiance to the union and give up slavery.
As far as nothern states having slavery, there were union states that had slavery, they were border states though, the northern states that were not border states had abolished slavery before the civil war.
States rights was also a smokescreen for something bigger. The South was not a democracy per se, it was an aristocracy, the well off planter class not only controlled the economic wealth, they also controlled the government, the Confederacy was run by the well off and their scions, and the civil war represented a battle between the blue bloods of the south versus those all so crass plebians from the north (interesting, isn't it, that the fighting down south was done by the poor folk, not the well off). States rights was always a smoke screen, pure and simple, and when Reagan opened his campaign in Philadelphia, Miss, with 'states rights", it was more of the same.
As far as nothern states having slavery, there were union states that had slavery, they were border states though, the northern states that were not border states had abolished slavery before the civil war.
States rights was also a smokescreen for something bigger. The South was not a democracy per se, it was an aristocracy, the well off planter class not only controlled the economic wealth, they also controlled the government, the Confederacy was run by the well off and their scions, and the civil war represented a battle between the blue bloods of the south versus those all so crass plebians from the north (interesting, isn't it, that the fighting down south was done by the poor folk, not the well off). States rights was always a smoke screen, pure and simple, and when Reagan opened his campaign in Philadelphia, Miss, with 'states rights", it was more of the same.
2
Great piece of American music that SC native white boy John Hiatt wrote on this subject 15 years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa3uuj0gx4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa3uuj0gx4g
3
Love your name. And you're right that is a great song.
Ive seen google news hundreds of stories related to EBAY's banning of the flag yet its still there on EBAY with countless sales and "unprecedented" internet sales, they will ban it when the fad ($$$$) passes
2
The problem is the white supremacist movement, not their flag.
5
The flag is the flag of white supremacists. Its their symbol.
1
The confederate battle flag was flown by men fighting against the government of the United States for the cause of slavery. No matter how current southerners try to distort history that flag is symbolic of treason and white supremacy. Therefore while a private citizen may choose to display this symbol and may choose to say that it has a different meaning to them, it is wrong for any governmental organization in the United States, federal or state or local, to allow the public display on government property of a symbol of white supremacy and past treason. To do so is to give that symbol official support and no government body in the USA has the right to give symbolic support to white supremacists.
12
Well, we can't do anything about gun control so let's at least have a symbolic victory.
5
I am a high school teacher in the South and I notice that the few young men who display the Confederate battle flag are not trying to offend Black people but making a statement that they are rebels. They just want to give the "middle finger" to "the man" - "the man" to them are people who, like me, live in suburbs and don't get their culture and traditions.
9
Apparently "the man," is Frederick Douglass.
1
Rup, Thanks for sharing that perspective. Had it not been for an incident at the dinner table last night, I probably would have been one of those people dismissing your comment as naive or disingenuous. I'm an African-American and my husband is White. We just celebrated our 28th wedding anniversary this weekend. In any case, we were having dinner when I mentioned how elated I was that the Confederate flag and emblem was beginning to come down all over the place. He shrugged his shoulder and said: I used to wear a jacket with a confederate flag on the back." Well, I almost fell out of my chair. And then he said essentially the same thing you had observed. He and his friends thought it was cool, because it meant that they were rebels, i.e. presumably independent of their families except at mealtimes. Slavery never crossed his mind, which might have alot to do with the fact that he
and his buddies had slept through American History in high school. Bytheway he grew up in California. Now I'm not as quick to judge the motives of everyone displaying that flag but it really is time to let that emblem go. Thanks again for sharing that perspective.
and his buddies had slept through American History in high school. Bytheway he grew up in California. Now I'm not as quick to judge the motives of everyone displaying that flag but it really is time to let that emblem go. Thanks again for sharing that perspective.
6
OK, they're acting-out rebellion. In a few years they will be applying for a job in the local police force where they can act out on the job with a real gun and real black people. Surely, you can't want that!
2
This is the only good thing that could come out of such a tragedy.
3
Yes. And yet, the cost is still too high.
2
Better late than never. Of course 150 years is more than a little late but I'll take it.
6
Sure, get rid of the confederate flag. But while the Dylann Roofs are walking around with pistols in their pockets, flagpoles are the least of our problem. Many of these retailers who garnering publicity for their no-flag policy are still selling guns, aren't they? Flags don't kill people; guns do.
14
Actually, people kill people...using guns
Similarly, people terrorize people ...using confederate flags
It's time te regulate both
Similarly, people terrorize people ...using confederate flags
It's time te regulate both
take the guns from gangbangers,criminals .Stop and frisk
If the people who insist on keeping the flag can't understand why flying it is so offensive, perhaps they should consider this: 110,000 soldiers died on the Union side to defeat the Confederates. By flying the flag, they're desecrating the memory of those soldiers. Who were (the vast majority) white.
4
It is heartening to see the nationwide support for removing this symbol. But it will be more gratifying to see the disappearance of the underlying racial attitudes completely.
6
Amen, brother.
Governor Haley should have ordered a state police officer to get in a bucket, cut that lock, and take down the flag. Surely she cannot be afraid of anything that the legislature might do? Impeach her? How would the optics of that play out?
3
Haley probably swore to uphold the law when she took office.
1
Should Germany revere Nazis?
3
The German government outlawed all mention of Hitler or Nazis and made flying the flag of the 3rd Reich a felony offense. Consequently, the succeeding generations of Germans had no ties at all to the Nazi movement and have no ties to any of the horrible ideology that spawned it.
The same will happen when the confederate flag (a symbol of slavery, Jim Crow and segregation) disappears from the public consciousness. It will go a long way toward curing the disease of racism in the United States.
The same will happen when the confederate flag (a symbol of slavery, Jim Crow and segregation) disappears from the public consciousness. It will go a long way toward curing the disease of racism in the United States.
Though they were giddy when Citizens United resulted in the corporations are people too, it looks like it might turn out to be their worst enemy.
Corporations are about as PC as you can be today.
Their influence has fallen like a hammer on the use of the confederate flag.
Similarly, big business is supporting same sex marriages in statements to the supreme court, and even exxonmobil has said something needs to be done about climate change.
Like on most issues, the GOP can't see past the tip of their nose. They see only how it will benefit themselves, never how it might benefit another, especially the opposition.
I think we will see big business start leading the way on issues that completely conflict with their platform, unanticipated by their lack of foresight on anything.
Much as they were surprised by the backlash of the Indiana so-called religious freedom bill, or how they've turned Kansas from a "real live experiment" to an example of economic policy to run from.
I know that I'm giddy about watching the wheels fall off their clown car as the primaries approach. And all I have to do is listen to them speak.
i love this country!
Corporations are about as PC as you can be today.
Their influence has fallen like a hammer on the use of the confederate flag.
Similarly, big business is supporting same sex marriages in statements to the supreme court, and even exxonmobil has said something needs to be done about climate change.
Like on most issues, the GOP can't see past the tip of their nose. They see only how it will benefit themselves, never how it might benefit another, especially the opposition.
I think we will see big business start leading the way on issues that completely conflict with their platform, unanticipated by their lack of foresight on anything.
Much as they were surprised by the backlash of the Indiana so-called religious freedom bill, or how they've turned Kansas from a "real live experiment" to an example of economic policy to run from.
I know that I'm giddy about watching the wheels fall off their clown car as the primaries approach. And all I have to do is listen to them speak.
i love this country!
9
Imagine the outcry if the Nazi flag were displayed anywhere in the world, not as a symbol of hate but as a representation of the German heritage or to commemorate the brave German soldiers that died fighting for their country.
34
As a German citizen I can't rule out the possibility that my grandfather was a Nazi. The correct response of future generations is to say loudly and clearly "Never Again!" The mistakes of our ancestors are our cross to bear, not a culture/heritage to celebrate.
It is the proper role of people in my position to warn others that being evil is often much easier than you would imagine. All it takes is a difficult situation and a willingness to look away from and not ask the difficult questions.
The Sons of Confederate Veterans would do well to study how modern Germany has atoned for the evils in its past. You guys are blowing it and it makes you look far worse than you realize!
It is the proper role of people in my position to warn others that being evil is often much easier than you would imagine. All it takes is a difficult situation and a willingness to look away from and not ask the difficult questions.
The Sons of Confederate Veterans would do well to study how modern Germany has atoned for the evils in its past. You guys are blowing it and it makes you look far worse than you realize!
8
Nazi concentration camps were the death penalty. Southern plantations were life in prison. If you think they're the same, you aren't thinking clearly.
Michjas, for many a slave, the plantation was a death sentence. Your ignorance on this point is apalling and chilling
1
It's not about the flag, it's about the attitude
11
Yes, but getting rid of the symbols of hate helps to dispel hatred in future generations.
1
So removing the Stars & Bars would insult White Confederate Southerners - but it's use has not insulted Northerners or Blacks. It is the United States - the Union won - Southerners & the Dixiecrats (now the GOP) have continued this outrage long enough. Germany allow flying the Nazi flag - why do we allow the stars & bars in public places? .
4
Learn some history, kid. The Dixiecrats were and still are Democrats. The Democrats are the party that is trying to keep minorities "in their place" and keep them poor and downtrodden so they will fall for the lies the Democrats tell them and the empty promises of free everything that they constantly hold forth.
If I were advising the southern states - I would tell them to stand up for their rights - they should secede - this time permanently.
9
So you want to expel all southerners from the USA. Even we southerners who detest the flag and want it to go away? Even black southerners?
The problem is too many of them depend on Washington money, or in other words they are the taker states. Hope your advice touches on how to stand on their feet too in addition to standing up for their rights.
Voter suppression, exploiting immigrants, how many deaths will these each take? Once the flag of treason and racism is gone, we should be bold enough to demand an end of other manifestations of racism.
5
I am an immigrant I was not exploited but given opportunity to do well.Maybe you are talking about law breakers who come here illegally taking jobs and benefits
How many people are killed by Confederate flags each year?
9
Moght wanna read Twain and Dos Passos before he cracked up; "Underneath the starry Flag/Civilize 'em with a Krag."
None. How many people are killed by racists who revere the Confederate flag and the hatred and racism it stands for each year?
1
Confederate imagery of yesterday now promotes racist evil. I'm looking forward to the day when it no longer disgraces our landscape.
8
The Confederate Flag is just a piece of cloth that we say has meaning. Just taking it down won't solve anything. We can try to become as equal as we want, but it will never solve anything. The world is a place where fear and terror not only tear us apart, but it also brings us together. This flag has a meaning to some, and another meaning to others, and removing it will never make us equal. Can you all not see that Everything we do is bringing us further apart? If you feel what I am saying is wrong, email me at [email protected]
6
NO, the flag can still be in your house, and in museums. Respect African Americans and how that battle flag reminds them of slavery, segregation and white supremacy.
1
Gun bans too, please!
30
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
1
Not true Russell, only law enforcement would legally have guns. The number of outlaws and criminals and terrorists with guns would steadily decrease to a number similar to other developed nations, which would in turn reduce the number of gun related deaths and violent crimes by the tens of thousands per year. And we would then join the rest of civilization
How about gun control?
Isn't that the relevant debate here?
Nothing would have happened if he waved that flag in the church but a lot happened because he had a GUN.
Isn't that the relevant debate here?
Nothing would have happened if he waved that flag in the church but a lot happened because he had a GUN.
30
I recall passing a small gas station in the south with a stars and bars flying out front. I think you should keep it. It spoke loudly, 'don't stop here'. I am amazed at how the conversation has stayed clear of...dare I say it...GUNS!
11
Guns don't kill people; people kill people. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
1
Russell Johnson: in the UK (just to give one example), guns are outlawed in most cases. And yet, for the most part, the outlaws in the UK have...knives. Please explain.
1
The South lost the Civil War and the slaves were freed 150 years ago, no matter how much they would like to deny it.
What is wrong with them?
What is wrong with them?
7
Maybe we can work on Fort Bragg, Fort Hood, and the other institutions named after Confederates. (Bragg and Hood were total failures as Confederate generals, too.)
4
So were Union Generals Hooker, Burnside, McClellan, Fremont, Sigel, Banks, and you might check out Grant's actions as Second Cold Harbor where his troops finally defied orders to attack.
I would like to see some installations named after Indian War Generals "worked on" too. Maybe we can start with Fort Sheridan.
I would like to see some installations named after Indian War Generals "worked on" too. Maybe we can start with Fort Sheridan.
"Do you have a flag?"
- Eddie Izzard
It's at least something we CAN do.
- Eddie Izzard
It's at least something we CAN do.
5
The Confederate flags in any form are about treason. To say it is about protecting a way of life is a tacit code for the suppression of African Americans. Denominate it as a states rights issue if you want or a matter of one's heritage. But no American governmental entity should ever display the Confederate flags in any manner whatsoever.
I am against burning things as a political statement. But I might be persuaded to make an exception here.
I am against burning things as a political statement. But I might be persuaded to make an exception here.
21
How about flying Old Glory instead ? Why is this still a topic.
4
I suggest all flag "experts" take a history lesson from Saint Andrew who's cross was the X. Also Saint Peter was Andrews brother who also was crucified upside down. So just maybe a deeper meaning and understanding may reveal something more spiritual then we all realize. After all, "I am in this world but not of it". You all are in it, of it, and can't escape it, so I "Pray for all of you".
Do you have a point? You're clearly no poet, so just say what you mean.
3
Nice try, but the Stars and Bars is the symbol of the KKK, not of Saint Andrew. Saints Peter and Andrew would have nothing to do with the racism, hatred and murder carried out under that banner.
I am absolutely dumbstruck that a man so young and so disturbed could capture the heart of America and hold it hostage with such bizarre intent. I think today - more than any other day - is one of the worst I've seen in American subterfuge and distortion, dishonesty and flat out silliness.
I'm a northerner with northern ancestors that fought in the Civil War under Lincoln, but I want to say I bought a confederate flag today. Nobody has the right to take away the dignity of the majority non-slave-owning southern men and women who lost their lives as Americans - that is, after all, what Lincoln said - by eliminating the flag that they fought under. The Civil War was not just about slavery. It was also about states rights and now it's a heritage with plenty of regret about the slavery part of it. But no, I'm not going to let hysteria and a deranged, very young man destroy even the memory of people who lived and died as Americans. This is a question of freedom, honor and memory of Americans - all of them - not symbolism. Of course, the NYT will probably not print this.
I'm a northerner with northern ancestors that fought in the Civil War under Lincoln, but I want to say I bought a confederate flag today. Nobody has the right to take away the dignity of the majority non-slave-owning southern men and women who lost their lives as Americans - that is, after all, what Lincoln said - by eliminating the flag that they fought under. The Civil War was not just about slavery. It was also about states rights and now it's a heritage with plenty of regret about the slavery part of it. But no, I'm not going to let hysteria and a deranged, very young man destroy even the memory of people who lived and died as Americans. This is a question of freedom, honor and memory of Americans - all of them - not symbolism. Of course, the NYT will probably not print this.
11
Keep the flag heritage in museums and private property, it has no business being on government property when it is such a symbol of hate, repression and racist ideology.
3
You are quite simply wrong, for African -Americans it is akin to the swastika, for the rest of us it symbolizes, treason, and ignorance, the fallacy about honoring grand pappy is just that a fallacy,grand pappy was fighting to enslave fellow human beings and all the revisionist history isn't going to change that a whit. It is time for that rag to be consigned to the dustbin , we are 150 years overdue.
2
Southern men and women who "lost their lives as Americans" were in fact fighting to secede from the United States of America. They were fighting to no longer be Americans. The actions of a deranged young man does not change that fact! Not does your mistaken interpretation of what the Civil War was about. It was about seceding from the Union.
In my living memory as a 47 year old, I cannot remember another day in modern American history, where the edifices of the slavery-driven Confederacy have been so fundamentally shaken, and we have made more progress in banishing the Confederacy in the public domain as in all the 150 years before. We have state governments throughout the deep South seeking to remove the Confederate flag. We have major retailers eliminating all Confederate items for sale. We have license plates being withdrawn. We have state flags being reconsidered in their design. This is much, much more than symbolism or than what a political poll can capture. What you are seeing are deeply ingrained values of multiculturalism, inclusion, democracy coming out and taking the nation back from ignorance, hatred, and white supremacy. When times are toughest, we see the strength of our nation. And that is great sight to behold.
19
You are correct, but I can't help but notice that the sun set again today with the flag on the South Carolina capitol grounds flying. They haven't even turned off the floodlight that illuminates it at night.
I would indeed derive a measure of satisfaction if a member of the South Carolina legislature remarked that something I wrote in the comments of articles on this subject was instrumental in his or her vote to remove the Confederate flag from that state's capitol grounds. That is not the case, of course, but still, there is satisfaction knowing "my side" prevailed for once, and in a southern city in a southern state.
4
SC has had a controversial history during the Civil War. They were the first to secede from the Union. They fired the first shot at Ft. Sumter that started the War. When T. Sheridan marched through the South, he was known to show mercy to many plantations realizing they were necessary during the Reconstruction. However, when he marched through SC he spared none as punishment for starting the War. Does anyone wonder why the Confederate Flag has 13 stars? In reality CSA only consisted of 11 states. My guess is CSA believed MO and KY should have been part of CSA.
4
Difficult to understand the world view of people that support public display of the Confederate Flag. The Civil War divided the nation and arguably came close to ending the Great Experiment. The Confederate Flag represents the worst of this nation leading up to the Civil War. Are lynchings, segregation and economic disadvantage of Black citizens of the U.S.A. noble efforts? In a different world the roles and consequences of skin color would be reversed.
I believe the display of the Confederate Flag, or its derivative, should be banned by Federal law. Living in the past is not good. Living in the past ~155 years before the present is insane.
I believe the display of the Confederate Flag, or its derivative, should be banned by Federal law. Living in the past is not good. Living in the past ~155 years before the present is insane.
6
Obviously no government body should display it, which is what this is about. But for private parties, we should treat it like the swastika: not banned by law, but shamed by all.
1
The essential conundrum of the American Experiment,is the comprehension or contamination of its soul.Calculated contrivance,combined with incredible comment,is now confirmed to cast aside the confederate 'battle flag,as it now commemorates nothing more than the battle Lost.Argumentative assertion of 'States Rights,have been shown to be nothing more than sham and shout.If all fifty states pronounced allegiance to their individual states 'rights,our so-called 'super power,status would a figment of imagination comparable to the super hero glee that now infests 'Hollywood.The true spiritual component of America is its' investment in the theology of Freedom.As represented by the abomination of American Slavery,the confederate flag,in any defilement,is a correction in painful progress,as we as a nation push ahead to our destiny.
1
In other words, americans are being distracted with flags while the real issues of race and gun control will be swept under the carpet yet again.
14
this is all show and no go...this symbol should have been ruled treasonous in 1865. Once again, this country puts a band-aid where open heart surgery is needed. Incredibly predictable...failing to address the REAL problem.
8
I just saw a picture of a rainbow flag over city hall in Boston. We shoul work to change all that and what it symbolizes.
There how does that sound? Careful what you ask/demand/pressure/force of others.
There how does that sound? Careful what you ask/demand/pressure/force of others.
4
That comparison is literally hilarious.
11
The rainbow flag represents inclusion and community. The confederate flag--do I need to explain this?--is the primary symbol of secessionists who rebelled against this country over the right to own humans as chattel. The comparison is insulting and ignorant.
12
How does that sound, you ask? Specious, inane and vapid!
3
It's about time for the South to finally commit and go all in on the Union of these United States and scrap these symbols of a long ago rebellion and the repugnant system that spawned it.
5
I'm proud of the citizens of South Carolina and their protests against the flag. I hope it's removed quickly. I'm wondering why no one in the press has mentioned that the president of the College of Charleston, Glenn McConnell, is a Confederate re-enacter and his family ran a Confederate souvenir shop. That's certainly newsworthy.
4
Confederate re-enactor fine. Confederate souvenir shop fine. Confederate monuments and flags on us government grounds....no
2
Mississippi needs to remove the Comfederate flag from the upper left quadrant of their state flag. I don't know how that flag has escaped this and recent controversies, especially considering that states negative history in the fight for civil rights.
4
I moved to south carolina when I was 14 in 1961 from California. It was a total shock. Confederate symbols on license plates like the cartoon confederate soldier who says, "Fergit Hell!" The white only bathrooms and drinking fountains. The white only private clubs. I wanted to vomit. I annoyed my racist father by using the "colored" drinking fountain. They thought I was crazy. Black maids in quarters like solitary confinement cells kept from their children except on weekends. This ugly display of racist iconography must end. In my lifetime please!
10
I'm really thankful for retailers who will stop selling it, especially Amazon, where I do a lot of shopping. Count me "another satisfied customer."
12
Mr. Davis told the demonstrators that while he was with them, “there are some very good and decent people up there in that General Assembly, without a racist bone in their body, who revere that flag.”
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They are welcome to revere it on private property.
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They are welcome to revere it on private property.
5
I want to see the vote on C-SPAN this could be entertaining.
Voted overwhelmingly to consider removing a flag.....Tepid. That flag is an abhorrent symbol, but politically it's pretty easy. What about the deeper causes? The guns? The income disparity? The difference in education? What about access to health care? What about a living wage? What about social services for troubled people?
The flag should come down. It should have come down decades ago. All this focus on the flag gives our elected leaders an easy out.
The flag should come down. It should have come down decades ago. All this focus on the flag gives our elected leaders an easy out.
13
Now that the confederate flag is being taken down from the SC state capital, there won't be any more racism or racial violence or mass killings. Not bad for a day's works, gov haley.
4
The Confederate flag is rightly tied to contemporary racism as well as to our "exceptional" history of chattel slavery and the post-Civil War resistance. But it also represents the only major attempt to effect the violent overthrow of the United States. It is thus doubly bad. We would not think to display the flag of Nazi Germany or of the Soviet Union in both of these respects and I think the same applies to Confederate symbolism. Of course, just as the German must and do remember what they did in the Nazi times, we must remember and work to erase the effects of what the country has done. This is "positive remembrance," which is a duty for all of us.
7
They voted to consider..
that's ridiculous....they need to vote to remove!!
that's ridiculous....they need to vote to remove!!
5
Governor Haley could and should simply order a state police officer to cut that lock and remove the flag. If that provoked the legislature into action, the optics would be horrible for them.
Let them vote, do they want out of the Union or do they want to stay?
In the UK, it's called devolution, it's part of democracy.
In the UK, it's called devolution, it's part of democracy.
3
Why should they vote? Why should it be that easy, even if they did vote to secede? It would trivialize the deaths of 600,000. We won the war. Period.
And we are not the UK. Flying the confederate flag is no better than flying the swastika.
And we are not the UK. Flying the confederate flag is no better than flying the swastika.
I predict that the flag, heretofore rarely seen, will become much more frequently seen on vehicle bumpers, clothing, &c.
5
I've seen the Confederate battle flag frequently in Savannah - on pickup trucks, yards, clothing, etc.
I suspect you are correct, unfortunately. However, that is their constitutional right under the 1st amendment. I strongly support free speech, even when it offends me. I also strongly support all of our other rights under the constitution. That said, there is no reason for government to fly the flag.
2
Whew. Now mentally ill jerks won't be able to murder innocent people with the Confederate flag anymore. Way to address the real problem as usual, America.
4
This killing has brought out into the light the clearly racist, hatred and sickness of the republican supporters.
4
This is a lame, hollow, meaningless gesture. It costs us nothing to take down the Confederate flag, and it allows people to comfort themselves that they did something, when they really didn't.
6
All true, and yet the flag's proponents have successfully resisted its removal for 150 years. Not a giant step by any means, and certainly not the most important step, but a step. I am grateful.
3
They didn't even take down the flag. They didn't even turn off the floodlight that illuminates the flag at night. People are taking comfort from something that they didn't actually do!
Lets ask a very clear question. Will removing an historical artifact change the endemic racism, homophobia and class divides that make the south the most unequal, poverty stricken part of the nation? Absolutely not. A cheap way to again shove the reality of the South under the bed and avoid real change.
2
See comment above yours.
1
The shooting last week, and the increasing number of mass shootings in our Nation makes us feel powerless. Like our society is spiraling downward. We who are outraged over the government sanctioning of a symbol of racism and treasonous rebellion, don't expect that the removal of the Confederate flag will stop racism. However, people need a small token of something positive to remind us that goodness will overcome evil.
Anyone that considers themselves a leader, should recognize the flag's message that is being conveyed. If they fail to see that, and fail to speak out, they are not fit to lead, but are pandering to bigots for votes.
The flag removal is a very small step in saying that we will not tolerate racism in our society. Until we stop the increasingly hateful propaganda that is being promoted daily by so-called news sources and professional hate-mongers and get our firearms proliferation under control, we will just continue to allow these horrific incidents to continue. And we will continue to feel powerless and desperate after each event
Anyone that considers themselves a leader, should recognize the flag's message that is being conveyed. If they fail to see that, and fail to speak out, they are not fit to lead, but are pandering to bigots for votes.
The flag removal is a very small step in saying that we will not tolerate racism in our society. Until we stop the increasingly hateful propaganda that is being promoted daily by so-called news sources and professional hate-mongers and get our firearms proliferation under control, we will just continue to allow these horrific incidents to continue. And we will continue to feel powerless and desperate after each event
6
What a nation.
Young children slaughtered at school and we pass laws to make it easier to get and brandish guns.
More people killed in multiple incidents and we talk about mental health and ease gun restrictions further.
Now 9 people murdered at church and we talk about how terrible the confederate flag is!!!
Wake up!!! It is guns and bullets that are causing all these deaths.
Young children slaughtered at school and we pass laws to make it easier to get and brandish guns.
More people killed in multiple incidents and we talk about mental health and ease gun restrictions further.
Now 9 people murdered at church and we talk about how terrible the confederate flag is!!!
Wake up!!! It is guns and bullets that are causing all these deaths.
18
And don't forget the ignorance, racism and hate --They also pull the trigger.
While taking down the Confederate flag is a sound idea, and long overdue--it still doesn't address the REAL problem, which is the mentality that brought it about in the first place. Simply said, it's time for America to face the fact that it was built by, and on racism. Period. And the sooner we recognize this as a Nation, the better chance we have of eradicating it.
3
This issue should have been taken up 150 years ago.The Confederate flag should have been purged from use as a condition of surrender at the end of the Civil War. Just what does it stand for that is so admirable and worthy of honor? Slavery? Anarchy? If it means so much to its admirers, they can buy a keychain, if they can find one.
5
The flags and other insignia of the confederacy were outlawed during post-war occupation. But when they returned to the union, things like flags once again fell under protections including the First Amendment. It's pretty hard to word a statute that would ban "the" confederate flag without being worded in a way that failed to pass First Amendment muster or worded so as to be interpreted in some unintentionally broad fashion. It's a harder problem than you might think.
I'm shocked, shocked to know that the flag of the slave states was offensive to the descendants of slaves, and loved by a racist murderer. Who'd have thought???
8
There is a modicum of satisfaction that the racist murderer's heinous acts are bringing greater understanding as well as change that is quite the reverse of what he stood for.
28
I am afraid that there is a certain class of race problem solvers who don’t want the patient to get well, because as long as the disease holds out they have not only an easy means of making a living, but also an easy medium through which to make themselves prominent before the public.
6
Oh my, Tyreese. I never thought I could encounter such brilliance with the boldness to say it!! You couldn't be more right. A heartfelt thank you.
"There is a class
of colored people
who make a business
of keeping the troubles,
the wrongs and the
hardships of the Negro race
before the public.
Some of these people
do not want the Negro
to lose his grievances
because they do not want
to lose their jobs.
There is a certain class
of race-problem solvers
who don't want the patient
to get well. " Booker t. Washington
of colored people
who make a business
of keeping the troubles,
the wrongs and the
hardships of the Negro race
before the public.
Some of these people
do not want the Negro
to lose his grievances
because they do not want
to lose their jobs.
There is a certain class
of race-problem solvers
who don't want the patient
to get well. " Booker t. Washington
2
Maybe this will put an end to the "War of Northern Aggression " hogwash. And finally we can say, "The South Will Not Rise Again." At least as separate from the rest of the country.
12
I find the righteous fuss about the Confederate flag to be a way of expressing outrage while avoiding the real issue: we have too many guns, too easily accessible. Public figures go on and on, but nobody's talking about guns. Yes, Walmart will discontinue sales of the flags. But one wonders how much money Walmart makes on gun sales.
67
There are some 305,000,000 (est) guns in the U.S. right now, with another 5 million or so added each year.
They won't be going anywhere soon.
They won't be going anywhere soon.
1
Guns are legal and ownership of guns is a constitutionally protected right. So no, I don't wonder how much money Walmart makes on gun sales.
I am sorry, did you say it was 2015? I thought for a minute it was still 1865. Come on America....let's tear down this awful chapter in our history and move on.
13
We've had these moments before, where nothing much has happened except maybe a monument or a flag was moved a hundred yards this way or that, but was still erected with the blessing of government officials and institutions.
So if what we are seeing here, is the final end to that fool's business of "proudly" erecting symbols and tributes to a bloody and immoral Cause, and twisting history into pretzels as it does so, I'm a happy dude today.
It's not complicated. The Confederacy was profoundly and grievously wrong. It should no longer haunt or have any business with, any of us. Let's all move in that direction.
So if what we are seeing here, is the final end to that fool's business of "proudly" erecting symbols and tributes to a bloody and immoral Cause, and twisting history into pretzels as it does so, I'm a happy dude today.
It's not complicated. The Confederacy was profoundly and grievously wrong. It should no longer haunt or have any business with, any of us. Let's all move in that direction.
6
It seems brilliant that the heat of the event has transformed itself into a movement to get rid of the confederate flag. Nothing wrong with that, but I somehow feel that we were redirected to a peripheral issue. I can imagine the NRA laughing up its sleeve. Is it possible for us to join together to amend or repeal the second amendment, and find the means of restricting firearms?
15
There is a procedure in place for amending the Constitution.
Before you begin, though, you might want to know that 80% of new state gun legislation in the last couple of years has expanded and strengthened gun owner rights.
Before you begin, though, you might want to know that 80% of new state gun legislation in the last couple of years has expanded and strengthened gun owner rights.
Yes... The NRA has the politicians wonderfully trained to talk anything but gun control.
Since the Left is hyping this tragedy here and elsewhere in the hopes that such race-baiting and "divide and conquer" rhetoric will swing the 2016 election to the Democrats, it's time for a reality check.
The 2016 election will be first and foremost about the economy, which is currently contracting and looks to be on a 1% GDP growth rate at best. By 2016 we could be headed for another financial crisis, replete with "bail-ins."
Of this happens, the GOP wins. And add to that the following:
A judge has just ordered that the Clinton Foundation racketeering case go to trial--Jury trial will begin January 26, 2016, just as primaries start. So Hillary will be dragged through a RICO trial during the primaries. By the way, it's Obama's DOJ bringing the charges.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/federal-court-orders-clintons-to...
The 2016 election will be first and foremost about the economy, which is currently contracting and looks to be on a 1% GDP growth rate at best. By 2016 we could be headed for another financial crisis, replete with "bail-ins."
Of this happens, the GOP wins. And add to that the following:
A judge has just ordered that the Clinton Foundation racketeering case go to trial--Jury trial will begin January 26, 2016, just as primaries start. So Hillary will be dragged through a RICO trial during the primaries. By the way, it's Obama's DOJ bringing the charges.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/federal-court-orders-clintons-to...
You wish.
"Race baiting," as you choose to call it, is far preferable to racist murder.
1
Well, Mickey you just keep telling yourself that. The rest of us await the election of the first female president. And, by the way, if all those Republicans can forgive that torturer president who was responsible for the worst foreign policy decision in this nation's history, well, any Clinton Foundation irregularities seem pretty small when compared to THOSE abuses.
3
All southerners, and I consider myself one because of my ancestral ties to Texas, a state that made the horrid mistake of coming into the Union as a slave state**, have to admit one thing above all others: whatever they think of the Confederate battle flag, it has been adopted and deeply embraced to promote racism, hatred and ideas of white superiority. While southerners sat around celebrating those who fought on the southern side in the Civil War as if they were eternal heroes and talking about "heritage", the battle flag was hijacked.
The flag at this point stands for resistance to the modern world, turning back the pages to the time when whites ruled everything, not just most things. It stands, frankly, for uneducated southern men who want to play at being tough and rebellious, weak men who imagine they are strong, who embrace the sacrifices of their ancestors 150 yrs. ago who have little or nothing to offer now. It is not just the flag of those defeated back then, it is a flag of those who are defeated today, those who sit on the margins of our times and imagine they are important. It is a flag for losers who imagine they are winners while the tides of history bury them
The south will gain by retiring this symbol, just as it gained much from the civil rights movement while it kicked and screamed against the march of history.
**The reason Oklahoma has that long panhandle in the west is that Texas gave up that territory to Oklahoma so it could come in as a slave state.
The flag at this point stands for resistance to the modern world, turning back the pages to the time when whites ruled everything, not just most things. It stands, frankly, for uneducated southern men who want to play at being tough and rebellious, weak men who imagine they are strong, who embrace the sacrifices of their ancestors 150 yrs. ago who have little or nothing to offer now. It is not just the flag of those defeated back then, it is a flag of those who are defeated today, those who sit on the margins of our times and imagine they are important. It is a flag for losers who imagine they are winners while the tides of history bury them
The south will gain by retiring this symbol, just as it gained much from the civil rights movement while it kicked and screamed against the march of history.
**The reason Oklahoma has that long panhandle in the west is that Texas gave up that territory to Oklahoma so it could come in as a slave state.
30
Wow! You hit the nail on the head and the nerve where it hurts. Truth!
2
The Confederate flag is a symbol of Southern culture, a culture that fought a war against fellow Americans to defend slavery, to defend the indefensible.
People forget that State's Rights does not give us the right to do wrong.
I hope people remember these things when they look at the Confederate flag.
People forget that State's Rights does not give us the right to do wrong.
I hope people remember these things when they look at the Confederate flag.
9
Do you really believe the Clinton's have honestly changed their views? If they have it is only posturing for political gain...
http://www.aol.com/article/2015/06/23/clinton-gore-confederate-campaign-...
http://www.aol.com/article/2015/06/23/clinton-gore-confederate-campaign-...
1
People don't know the pervasiveness of this;e.g., that slavery did not end after the Civil War; that it did not end with the signing of the Civil Rights Act of 1965 etc.
1. You THINK that the fact that the Stars and Bars happens to fly at the Statehouse in S. Carolina is some sort of anomaly - but you'd be wrong.
I know for a fact that as late as 1975, in Florida, at a city park where I umpired games there at a certain time during that year, the Stars and Bars was prominently and clearly on display, hoist upon the same flagpole that the United States flag flew on just below the federal flag.
In order for that to have happened, the municipal entity would've had to have aurhorized that.
2. In November of 1973, I traveled by bus from a town called Hollywood.
When I got on the bus I observed a considerable amount of African Americans sitting in the rear of the bus.
Since I knew about the Rosa Parks incident at first I took no particular notice, and decided to sit towards the rear of the bus myself; whereupon the driver chastized me - and the blacks also - for sitting in the incorrect section.
These comments speak for themselves and need no further embellishment.
Just as people don't REALLY understand what goes on in Washington D.C., people north of the Mason-Dixon Line don't necessarily know about how long this nonsense has gone on, and is STILL going on.
1. You THINK that the fact that the Stars and Bars happens to fly at the Statehouse in S. Carolina is some sort of anomaly - but you'd be wrong.
I know for a fact that as late as 1975, in Florida, at a city park where I umpired games there at a certain time during that year, the Stars and Bars was prominently and clearly on display, hoist upon the same flagpole that the United States flag flew on just below the federal flag.
In order for that to have happened, the municipal entity would've had to have aurhorized that.
2. In November of 1973, I traveled by bus from a town called Hollywood.
When I got on the bus I observed a considerable amount of African Americans sitting in the rear of the bus.
Since I knew about the Rosa Parks incident at first I took no particular notice, and decided to sit towards the rear of the bus myself; whereupon the driver chastized me - and the blacks also - for sitting in the incorrect section.
These comments speak for themselves and need no further embellishment.
Just as people don't REALLY understand what goes on in Washington D.C., people north of the Mason-Dixon Line don't necessarily know about how long this nonsense has gone on, and is STILL going on.
9
The question for me is simple: Why did it take the mass murder of 9 people in a church to change the minds of conservative Southerners about what was not an inspirational symbol of some kind of honorable history but rather a repulsive symbol of slavery, murder, terrorism, rape, treason, bigotry, and hate?
If conservative Southerners are finally emerging from centuries of denial about what the South and the Confederacy really stood for, well, bully for them. But I have a well-earned cynicism about their motives - they really have been a politically and morally nasty bunch for decades, and an embarrassing one - so forgive me if I attribute their change of mind not to some kind of enlightenment but to a political realization that continuing to fly this despicable symbol of despicable Southern history can only lose them votes in 2016.
If conservative Southerners are finally emerging from centuries of denial about what the South and the Confederacy really stood for, well, bully for them. But I have a well-earned cynicism about their motives - they really have been a politically and morally nasty bunch for decades, and an embarrassing one - so forgive me if I attribute their change of mind not to some kind of enlightenment but to a political realization that continuing to fly this despicable symbol of despicable Southern history can only lose them votes in 2016.
32
This is about electability in 2016, not about a change of heart that might improve the lot of people of color in SC.
2
Removing the Confederate flag is a nice gesture, but I prefer to "keep my eyes on the prize." I include the frequent police murders of black people, the fact that blacks are the most frequently targeted for stop-and-frisk and receive heavier sentences for the same offenses, that certain banks specifically targeted the black community for subprime loans, that etc. America has a long way to go before we make a dent in institutionalized racism, or the racism that infects our souls.
16
Perhaps, but one takes victories where one finds them. The flags and the statues coming down is a start. Babies born born in the deep south after this incident can grow up without this abhorrent symbol as a part of their consciousness. I'll take that for now.
4
...meanwhile back at the ranch...the handgun assembly lines are running at top speed while the GOP is patting itself on the back for creating a clever diversion.
25
An easy change that will make everyone feel like they've made progress but will actually accomplish nothing. I don't know why we constantly think that ridding ourselves of a symbol or a word will have any impact on the thought or behavior associated with it. Yes, I agree with this protest, but racism will not end, nor even be diminished. More likely you'll see a lot more Confederate flags in front lawns across the south.
3
SC legislators say it will take weeks to make a decision on the battle flag during which time, they will prepare speeches to deliver that quote the following from the state's heritage:
"I hold that in the present state of civilization, where two races of different origin, and distinguished by color, as well as intellectual, are brought together, the relation now existing in the slaveholding States between the two, is, instead of an evil, a good–a positive good." - John C Calhoun, famous SC Senator in 1836
"Our new Government cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." - Alexander Stephens, VP of Confederate States of America
"I wanna tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that there's not enough troops in the army to force the southern people to break down segregation and admit the n.g..r race into our theatres into our swimming pools into our homes and into our churches." - Strom Thurmond, SC Senator during his 1948 presidential campaign
YUP, Folks. This is the heritage underwriting the Confederate Battle Flag. One of vile, violent, racist ideology and intimidation.
Best to retire it to a museum. If South Carlina wants to commemorate the soldiers who fought and died in the Civil War, they should build a shrine with an eternal flame or a tomb to the unknown soldier.
"I hold that in the present state of civilization, where two races of different origin, and distinguished by color, as well as intellectual, are brought together, the relation now existing in the slaveholding States between the two, is, instead of an evil, a good–a positive good." - John C Calhoun, famous SC Senator in 1836
"Our new Government cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." - Alexander Stephens, VP of Confederate States of America
"I wanna tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that there's not enough troops in the army to force the southern people to break down segregation and admit the n.g..r race into our theatres into our swimming pools into our homes and into our churches." - Strom Thurmond, SC Senator during his 1948 presidential campaign
YUP, Folks. This is the heritage underwriting the Confederate Battle Flag. One of vile, violent, racist ideology and intimidation.
Best to retire it to a museum. If South Carlina wants to commemorate the soldiers who fought and died in the Civil War, they should build a shrine with an eternal flame or a tomb to the unknown soldier.
7
Why retire it to a museum? Bury it for good, where it will never be seen again.
It would take the Governor thirty seconds or less to order a state police officer to get up there, cut the lock, and bring down the flag.
And even if she weren't brave enough to take that initiative, she would be completely within her legal rights to turn off the floodlight that illuminates the flag at night. That floodlight isn't part of the legislative order that keeps the flag flying. But she hasn't even turned off the light. I'm giving her absolutely zero acknowledgement until that flag is down.
And even if she weren't brave enough to take that initiative, she would be completely within her legal rights to turn off the floodlight that illuminates the flag at night. That floodlight isn't part of the legislative order that keeps the flag flying. But she hasn't even turned off the light. I'm giving her absolutely zero acknowledgement until that flag is down.
Immediately after that horrible massacre in SC, nearly all the current Republican candidates either supported KEEPING the flag or were non-committal about removing it. Cruz, Graham, Walker, Santorum ALL sat on the fence. NOW that the momentum is inexorably against them low and behold!! The Republican apologists have found a cause to rally around.....racial harmony! Problem for me is that I'm NOT buying what they're selling. It's so clear that they're not in the least interested in delving deeply into the roots of racial disharmony in this country but still they will try to spin the story in their favor. I, for one, will not be fooled. I know a crooked used-car salesman when I see one.
18
How ridiculous to think that removing a flag would alleviate the racial violence and hatred in this country. It's a cop out for doing something meaningful.
2
Let's just take down those nasty flags and everything will be just so much better. Next week, let's start revising the text books. But it feels good. But it feels so righteous. And that's the most important (vote-getting) thing.
2
Let's not get too wound up about this flag business. We must remember the American flag flew on fighting ships that provided protection and safe passage for many of the slave ships that brought the human cargo to our shores. And let’s not forget the many thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians who died with the American flag flying over them.
But here the tyranny of the center continues to wage war on free speech–the real threat we face, not this flag. What the center demands is submission until the last tooth is pulled by the victim himself.
Was it the nine deaths as opposed to one, was it the place, a church, was it the young man’s terribly misguided and obsessive behavior, or was it self-serving political expedience that now forces the flag down? If it is, while at the same time never again sold through Amazon or Walmart–a good business move, for sure–, then will our society be more civil on this issue? Will the center feel more righteous because it makes it easier to forget that the nation was, in fact, divided, where brother fought against brother?
Or will this be, as it seems, just another shallow, pandering, easy fix to an issue that goes far beyond a flag pole in South Carolina, to the streets of Chicago, Baltimore, and Detroit–where this flag has never flown?
But here the tyranny of the center continues to wage war on free speech–the real threat we face, not this flag. What the center demands is submission until the last tooth is pulled by the victim himself.
Was it the nine deaths as opposed to one, was it the place, a church, was it the young man’s terribly misguided and obsessive behavior, or was it self-serving political expedience that now forces the flag down? If it is, while at the same time never again sold through Amazon or Walmart–a good business move, for sure–, then will our society be more civil on this issue? Will the center feel more righteous because it makes it easier to forget that the nation was, in fact, divided, where brother fought against brother?
Or will this be, as it seems, just another shallow, pandering, easy fix to an issue that goes far beyond a flag pole in South Carolina, to the streets of Chicago, Baltimore, and Detroit–where this flag has never flown?
8
The Charleston shooter's aim was to divide the nation. Game. Set.Match
2
it's the Second Amendment, not a flag that dignifies treason that needs to be the focus of this conversation.
3
I always wanted to know what they meant when they'd proclaim, "The south will rise again!" And then what? - Was my reply.
4
Then we'll put it in the oven and bake it like the loaf of sour dough that it really is
1
Listening to the speech of Ms Halley, I couldn't help but think of VEEP like performance...
"yes at this momentous moment its worth remember that um...
Guns dont kill people,...
... bullets do..... And so on this day we bravely ban a piece of fabric, and so give oxygen to those who wish to misappropriate for for their twisted reasons this flag of our forefathers' Thank you and goodnight"
"yes at this momentous moment its worth remember that um...
Guns dont kill people,...
... bullets do..... And so on this day we bravely ban a piece of fabric, and so give oxygen to those who wish to misappropriate for for their twisted reasons this flag of our forefathers' Thank you and goodnight"
3
Whose flag and constitution protected slavery from 1776 to 1863? Just wondering.
5
A good cause certainly.
But one can imagine the NRA sharing high fives that the discussion has been reduced to this flag and. It gun control.
And liberals will share high fives for banishing the flag of racism.
And really little will change - people will continue to die.
Just like the drought in California has been reduced to almonds;'the slaughter in Charleston has been reduced to symbol.
However, symbols can be powerful. Perhaps this will play out better than I think.
But one can imagine the NRA sharing high fives that the discussion has been reduced to this flag and. It gun control.
And liberals will share high fives for banishing the flag of racism.
And really little will change - people will continue to die.
Just like the drought in California has been reduced to almonds;'the slaughter in Charleston has been reduced to symbol.
However, symbols can be powerful. Perhaps this will play out better than I think.
2
Out of something tragic a beautiful action has come, time to relegate the flag to a museum. Please folks don't make this ugly by injecting politics into this.
3
You mean it has taken 150 years since the end of the Civil War for Republican legislators in all the Southern states to realize that the Confederate flag is a flag of divisiveness, of hatred, of slavery? And the shame that it took the horrific killings last week to open their eyes? Next on the agenda: working to change the mind-set of Southerners who, symbols of the Confederacy or no, still think in in terms of hatred of blacks and other minorities. Now that can't be legislated, but it has to happen, sooner rather than later.
4
There is no document of civilization which is not, at the same time, a document of barbarism. oh, and behind every great fortune, there is a great crime.
1
One of the Constitutional definitions of treason is levying war against the United States. The Confederate flag is, thus, a symbol of treason. What nobility is a part of treason? Why should treason be venerated?
7
Having lived through many "pivotal" events in America, often having to do with race, I am witnessing another. When the son of Strom Thurmond says he is not proud of "this heritage," that is meaningful to me. I remember his father well. He personified that heritage. I do not expect an abrupt about-face. Racial attitudes are strongly held and a process of enlightenment will be lengthy. Yet what is happening in just a few days is hopeful. Senator Thurmond also included in his remarks that human beings were kept against their will while experiencing unimaginable acts. Once the flags and other symbols fall, it's the human beings that need our concern. I hope that those whose devotion to a flag has fallen can invest their devotion in them.
5
Why did it take Hillary Clinton so long to speak out against this? Seems that the water must be tempered before she even tips a toe in the water on most issues...
2
Slavery was America's holocaust.
Over one million human beings died while being transported to the America's.
Once kidnapped from Africa, the slaves were chained below decks for a month at a time, lying naked in their own excrement and other bodily wastes, chained by the hundreds, almost stacked like cord wood. Details of this, the middle passage, can be found in The Slave Trade by Hugh Thomas.
On these shores, they were sold like prized cattle. Husband and wife relationships, children with parents, all that meant nothing. Buy and you owned and you could do with as you pleased, including killing disobedient slaves and, for white masters, using slave women for personal sexual gratification at will.
My family is from the south. Surely, it is not only the southern states that were guilty in this horrid drama. Brown University was founded on wealth from the slave trade. The White House was built with slave labor. But, it was the south, protecting its dollar wealth in human flesh, that held out and would have held out another 100 yrs.
We are facing the very same issues in different form today that led to the Civil War. The southern states are the hotbed of those who want to turn back and defeat democracy itself. Indeed, there are those who claim WE AREN'T A DEMOCRACY, because the founders presented a Republic and a very weak start at democratic rule.
The impact of slavery can be seen at the Sandy Spring Slavery Museum in Maryland.
http://www.sandyspringslavemuseum.org/
Over one million human beings died while being transported to the America's.
Once kidnapped from Africa, the slaves were chained below decks for a month at a time, lying naked in their own excrement and other bodily wastes, chained by the hundreds, almost stacked like cord wood. Details of this, the middle passage, can be found in The Slave Trade by Hugh Thomas.
On these shores, they were sold like prized cattle. Husband and wife relationships, children with parents, all that meant nothing. Buy and you owned and you could do with as you pleased, including killing disobedient slaves and, for white masters, using slave women for personal sexual gratification at will.
My family is from the south. Surely, it is not only the southern states that were guilty in this horrid drama. Brown University was founded on wealth from the slave trade. The White House was built with slave labor. But, it was the south, protecting its dollar wealth in human flesh, that held out and would have held out another 100 yrs.
We are facing the very same issues in different form today that led to the Civil War. The southern states are the hotbed of those who want to turn back and defeat democracy itself. Indeed, there are those who claim WE AREN'T A DEMOCRACY, because the founders presented a Republic and a very weak start at democratic rule.
The impact of slavery can be seen at the Sandy Spring Slavery Museum in Maryland.
http://www.sandyspringslavemuseum.org/
5
OK - Confederate battle flag issue - check.... Now how about that gun control thingie?
9
In truth, I am glad. Flags are powerful symbols. States may finally stop condoning what should be condemned. When these flags are removed it will send a powerful signal to our children and throughout society that racism is wrong, and it will be banished to the fringe where it belongs. It will lessen hatred and violence, I think, because hatred will be less socially acceptable. Yes, it is far too late. Yes, we must also get guns under control. But however late it is a sea change, and I want to note and appreciate the courage of Republicans who are standing up and doing the right thing. Because while some Southerners complain about tyranny of the Yankees telling them what to do, the real tyrants have been the racists. Those tyrants have been demanding that we judge people, including our very own President, on the color of their skin instead of the content of their character. Those tyrants claim "states' right" to mistreat blacks however they please, and then blame blacks for their failures. Yes, we can question Republicans' motives, and it's long overdue, but it takes some real moral courage, which in truth I did not think they had, to stand up to the tyrants in their party, and I applaud them.
2
'For generations, conservative Southerners defended the symbols of the Confederacy as standing for their history,"
It is a symbol of insurrection, not just racism and slavery, but a war upon the country and a repudiation of the American Constitution.
It is a symbol of insurrection, not just racism and slavery, but a war upon the country and a repudiation of the American Constitution.
6
The nationwide protests against a flag is the sort of mob mentality our founders worried about. The flag is dumb; the left-wing faux outrage fueled by this newspaper is even dumber. Meanwhile, America has decided it can peacefully coexist with the violently mentally ill.
8
I don't usually agree with Republicans, but this is a meaningless, easy feel-good gesture that doesn't address the actual problem. That flag didn't shoot anyone. Retailers will be taking this off their taxes, no sacrifice has actually been done.
1
You're not a Lonely Republican. You have lots of people of intelligence of both parties who agree with you. Doing something about the mentally ill and guns is the real issue.
Haiku
Confederate flag...
Does Berlin fly swastikas?
Not since World War II.
Confederate flag...
Does Berlin fly swastikas?
Not since World War II.
3
Wow. Tennessee has a bust of Nathan Bedford Forrest in the state Capitol. Forrest was not just a early leader of the Klan, but also the perpetrator of the Fort Pillow massacre. Forrest's troops murdered in cold blood dozens of black Union soldiers who had surrendered, shooting them down as they begged for their lives.
You can watch Youtube videos of U.S. soldiers shooting at firing squad German officers and civilians, executing them for the war crime of killing prisoners.
A bust of such a man in a state capitol? Unbelievable.
Fort Benning, Camp Lejune, Fort Hood. Why are so many U.S. Army and Marine bases named after the traitors who rose in rebellion against their government? Ft. Gordon, named after Georgia's John Gordon, a Confederate general, but, like Forrest, one of the founders of the KKK. Fort Bragg, Fort Polk, Fort Pickett, Fort A.P. Hill and Camp Beauregard.
Why not a Camp Rommel or a Fort Guderian?
Granting these traitors amnesty was one thing. Glorifying them is completely another.
You can watch Youtube videos of U.S. soldiers shooting at firing squad German officers and civilians, executing them for the war crime of killing prisoners.
A bust of such a man in a state capitol? Unbelievable.
Fort Benning, Camp Lejune, Fort Hood. Why are so many U.S. Army and Marine bases named after the traitors who rose in rebellion against their government? Ft. Gordon, named after Georgia's John Gordon, a Confederate general, but, like Forrest, one of the founders of the KKK. Fort Bragg, Fort Polk, Fort Pickett, Fort A.P. Hill and Camp Beauregard.
Why not a Camp Rommel or a Fort Guderian?
Granting these traitors amnesty was one thing. Glorifying them is completely another.
4
Flags and statues may be symbols, but symbols are important - especially those with the potent history of these symbols of rebellion and slavery. There is something important and unprecedented going on here, and, after wishing for it my entire adult life, I'm awed at how fast it's happening.
The American business establishment is turning decisively against the Confederate flag - some of our biggest retailers won't sell it any more and at least one manufacturer won't make it any more. Southern conservatives are saying that the flag it is a harmful, racially divisive, and even "shameful" symbol that should not be flown on government grounds and buildings.
Of all people, Strom Thurmond's son eloquently condemns "the unimaginable acts" that accompanied American slavery and declares, "I am not proud of this heritage.” Tennessee Republicans call for removal of Nathan Bedford Forrest's bust from their capitol; the Kentucky governor calls for removal of Jefferson Davis's statue from his capitol.
I wonder if we may finally be seeing the end of the Civil War. If the South is at last willing to welcome our African-American citizens into its family, let all of America be willing to welcome the South back into ours.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
The American business establishment is turning decisively against the Confederate flag - some of our biggest retailers won't sell it any more and at least one manufacturer won't make it any more. Southern conservatives are saying that the flag it is a harmful, racially divisive, and even "shameful" symbol that should not be flown on government grounds and buildings.
Of all people, Strom Thurmond's son eloquently condemns "the unimaginable acts" that accompanied American slavery and declares, "I am not proud of this heritage.” Tennessee Republicans call for removal of Nathan Bedford Forrest's bust from their capitol; the Kentucky governor calls for removal of Jefferson Davis's statue from his capitol.
I wonder if we may finally be seeing the end of the Civil War. If the South is at last willing to welcome our African-American citizens into its family, let all of America be willing to welcome the South back into ours.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
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To those Southerner's who revere their "battle" flag: The battle is over, the United States were kept united 150 years ago. It's a symbol of a tragedy both in terms of huge human loses in a war, a nation divided that is and will remain united (ok, maybe the weird snarky people in Texas should split away in a subdivision), and a stinging reminder of slave cultures that this MODERN world is working so hard to eliminate. Take a solemn moment to bury your battle flag and move up in an enlightened world. If you continue to want a divisive American culture we will all suffer the fates of others that remain divisive: Shia/Sunni, England/Scotland, Ukraine/Donetsk, on and on. What a waste of time and resources fighting a losing battle.
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The difference between revolution and oppression is who is OFFICIALLY in power. The official defeat of the South by the North is denied by flying the Confederate Flag.
In light of world conflicts it is still not decided that Capitalism (the Northeastern banks in the time of the Civil War dependent on Northern manufacturing) and its machine has yet won the World. America is an expression of a never-ending battle between the forces of Capitalism and the forces of indigenous local culture (which the South represented) - and to say that the forces of Capitalism have won over culture is premature at this point of the World's unfolding.
Racism is purely reprehensible, and is resolved by the modernity of post-tribalism. But we still have the Middle East embroiled in pre-modern tribal cultural conflicts and wars and capitalist profits that support that ideology within the US economy.
So there is no clear path into the future devoid of resistance - indeed we do not know whether the "modern world" of nations and supranational organizations can rule or not over pre-modern societies.
The significant detail of the event in South Carolina this week and the message of our Black President is that we have not yet overcome primal prejudices.
This is complicated by the failure of New World Order leaders to provide for a society in which everybody can be content that there is equality under the laws of nations worldwide.
Without Equality of Spirit in America we cannot represent it worldwide.
In light of world conflicts it is still not decided that Capitalism (the Northeastern banks in the time of the Civil War dependent on Northern manufacturing) and its machine has yet won the World. America is an expression of a never-ending battle between the forces of Capitalism and the forces of indigenous local culture (which the South represented) - and to say that the forces of Capitalism have won over culture is premature at this point of the World's unfolding.
Racism is purely reprehensible, and is resolved by the modernity of post-tribalism. But we still have the Middle East embroiled in pre-modern tribal cultural conflicts and wars and capitalist profits that support that ideology within the US economy.
So there is no clear path into the future devoid of resistance - indeed we do not know whether the "modern world" of nations and supranational organizations can rule or not over pre-modern societies.
The significant detail of the event in South Carolina this week and the message of our Black President is that we have not yet overcome primal prejudices.
This is complicated by the failure of New World Order leaders to provide for a society in which everybody can be content that there is equality under the laws of nations worldwide.
Without Equality of Spirit in America we cannot represent it worldwide.
I suppose it's possible to see this as the decent people in the GOP seizing their moment, but I'm afraid that this looks a lot more like a gutless Republican Party buying its way out as cheaply as possible in advance of 2016.
Oh, and we need to start running Barack Obama for Illinois Senate as soon as possible.
Oh, and we need to start running Barack Obama for Illinois Senate as soon as possible.
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This week the dog whistle of slavery, Jim Crow and continuing inequality became so audible that almost no one could deny its ugly meaning. I did not think that would happen in my lifetime and I'm sorry for the loss of lives that served as the catalyst. I hope it also leads to change that is more than the symbolic, doing away with the public display of the confederate battle flag.
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Call me a cynic but I think this Republican change of heart has more to do with the upcoming presidential election.
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This is terrific news.
I wish another headline read: "Protests Against Unfettered Access to Guns Spread Nationwide"
I wish another headline read: "Protests Against Unfettered Access to Guns Spread Nationwide"
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Nice start. But won't it be grand when the day arrives where all men are judged "not by the color of their skin, but the content of their character" (MLK).
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Absolutely. But ban guns in the meantime.
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Opposition to gay marriage has crumbled seemingly overnight and the confederate flag is now crumbling in a matter of days.
America is far, far more progressive and kind-hearted than the controversy loving media would have us think.
America is far, far more progressive and kind-hearted than the controversy loving media would have us think.
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The Confederate flag is literally Antiamerican. It is the banner used to proclaim that you are no longer a citizen of the USA and you will fight for that.
It's also a symbol of the desire to withhold the freedom of others, slaves. Something that goes against the principles laid out by the Founding Fathers.
It's nobody's heritage.
Unless the heritage you want people to identify you with is the desire to use violence to withhold freedoms from others, and to remove yourself from the USA.
It's also a symbol of the desire to withhold the freedom of others, slaves. Something that goes against the principles laid out by the Founding Fathers.
It's nobody's heritage.
Unless the heritage you want people to identify you with is the desire to use violence to withhold freedoms from others, and to remove yourself from the USA.
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In Germany the Nazi flag, swastikas and other SS memorabilia are forbidden since the end of WWII. Why is it that in this country we lack the memory of our tragic and violent histories; including how we anialated the Native Americans? We have blood on our hands and are no better. The hypocrisy needs to be acknowledged.
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This is real "progress" that many often claim in their rhetoric but rarely deliver on. As a libertarian, I applaud the arrival of the South to the 21st Century.
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"There are some very good and decent people up there in that General Assembly, without a racist bone in their body, who revere that flag." I suppose you could say the same about Germans who still revere the Nazi flag. After all, from the standpoint of the inexcusable oppression and brutality that American slaveowners and German National Socialists perpetrated on their victims, what is really the difference? Thank God Republicans and reasonable conservatives like Lindsay Graham and Nikki Haley have finally come to their senses. It's about time.
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There are Confederate war memorials in every single town in the south. We have monuments, cemeteries, museums, battlefields, and any number of historical markers placed to honor those fallen in that horrible war 150 years ago. In such places, the rebel battle flag often appears, but that tends to be in proper context as a symbolic reminder.
There are no dead soldiers buried outside the SC statehouse; in short, the only context is the pure, simple vein of stubborn pride that was the rebel cause and which certain constituents cling to still with "traditional" arrogance and ignorance.
It's long past time for regular southerners to understand the Civil War for what it truly was: millions of commoners sent to slaughter for elite financial interests. Most of those who fought and died did so like most any soldiers in history: for their friends and families and in striving for glory and spoils. Very few on either side died with the issue of slavery or even nation foremost in his heart or mind.
The dead are buried, along with the cause. Let it all rest in context within the museums, etc.
There are no dead soldiers buried outside the SC statehouse; in short, the only context is the pure, simple vein of stubborn pride that was the rebel cause and which certain constituents cling to still with "traditional" arrogance and ignorance.
It's long past time for regular southerners to understand the Civil War for what it truly was: millions of commoners sent to slaughter for elite financial interests. Most of those who fought and died did so like most any soldiers in history: for their friends and families and in striving for glory and spoils. Very few on either side died with the issue of slavery or even nation foremost in his heart or mind.
The dead are buried, along with the cause. Let it all rest in context within the museums, etc.
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What's even more galling is that all the southern states who wish to continue flying their rebel battle flag actually receive much money in federal spending than they contribute in taxes. In South Carolina the ratio is $1.92 in federal spending in the state for every $1.00 they pay in taxes. So the law-abiding Union states are financially supporting all this antebellum nostalgia and racial hatred.
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You're supporting poor people with your taxes, proffexpert, the overwhelming majority of whom are black in South Carolina. Exactly how is removing federal support such as welfare supporting racial hatred? And by the way, the southern states, with a heritage of cotton farming and not much else, such as manufacturing, don't have the technology that allows you in California to have such a high income that you are then privileged to be able to PAY income tax rather than COLLECT welfare. Be careful what you wish for.
A friend I worked with from upstate New York said he knew of folks up there that flew the Confederate Flag on their private property. I thought that only happened in the Southern States what a surprise.
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Hate knows no geographic limit.
With Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, AM Radio, and so many Republican Politicians (e.g. the ones who willingly took money from the Council of Conservative Citizens) as conduits of race baiting and hate mongering, I suspect this is all part of the plan. I suspect that they are working for the Plutocrats who think they have better odds inciting a race war to keep the people from realizing they are already the casualties of the class war. I know this sounds like crazy conspiracy theory, but really, shouldn't we "follow the money"? Who benefits by all the race-based hatred currently being fomented by these people?
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This is a key moment for the GOP and its historic embrace of inherently racist policies including, notably, voter suppression laws at the state level as well as the demonization of 'the other'. As a progressive, I look forward to a reformed GOP which embraces national policies which can be rationally and morally debated without the spectacle of pandering to a too powerful, minority racist constituency.
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I am less hopeful for a reformed GOP. I suspect this is a one-off issue they couldn't ignore.
My father's family arrived on the Mayflower, All my ancestors fought for the Confederacy during the Civil War. They owned few slaves amongst them, like most Southerners, they just didn't want to be invaded and told what to do.
But the war was about slavery and it's economic import, and the Battle Flag is the most potent symbol.
The comparison to the Nazi swastika is fitting.
The difference is the Nazis killed their victims outright. American slaveowners stole the entire lives of millions and in doing so, subjected them to endless psychological and often physical torment. There was nothing "benign" about it. The "lost cause" is a fiction.
Take it down, it is reprehensible. I cringe every time I see it.
But the war was about slavery and it's economic import, and the Battle Flag is the most potent symbol.
The comparison to the Nazi swastika is fitting.
The difference is the Nazis killed their victims outright. American slaveowners stole the entire lives of millions and in doing so, subjected them to endless psychological and often physical torment. There was nothing "benign" about it. The "lost cause" is a fiction.
Take it down, it is reprehensible. I cringe every time I see it.
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As a foreigner is very difficult to me understand why still many american people like the symbol of so indefensible cause. ¿ Is there many differences between the confederate flag and the nazi flag ?
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I'm not going to defend the confederate flag, but I think that it came to represent the Rebel, as in the person who is counter establishment and skirts the law - you may have heard of an old TV show, the Dukes of Hazzard, for example, where two white guys drove very fast in an orange car with a confederate flag decal on it, always one speedy maneuver ahead of the sheriff. Now, the symbol seems to have reverted to something very bad, you're right, very much equivalent to the nazi flag.
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if you had started a rebellion against your own country, initiated a war that claimed 600,000 lives, for the cause to perpetuate slavery, how hard would you try to pretend that those things were not true?
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One shouldn't expect the portraits of Albert Sydney Johnson or Jefferson Davis to disappear from the Texas State Senate Chamber in Austin, Texas any time soon.
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Indeed, there is every reason to remember the fools who came before us in portraiture.
I read that "Black Lives Matter" has been scribbled on statues there, that's helpful.
All I need to know about the flag I learned from my former neighbor. He flew it and displayed a lot of other Confederate regalia one day a year, the day we celebrate the life of Dr. Martin Luther King.
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Keeping the Confederate flag in the headlines for three consecutive days is some kind of a record. It's just a flag. It's red, white, and blue, just a different design. Remove it and things will get better. Or not. The group thinking here is scary. Nothing short of a Stalinian purge of all things Southern will satisfy.
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Whatever people do, I certainly hope they don't give any consideration to the other side's opinions. Those against it should not consider that those for it might be deeply attached to the flag because of history, heritage, ancestors and states rights. Those for it should not consider that those against it might be deeply offended by any symbolism remind them of a government which protected slavery long after the rest of the country. Because when you consider what the other side thinks, you might change your mind or think they might have a point. Better to find away so that the other side doesn't get a chance to even state its opinion, which seems like half of politics sometimes. And, don't worry, if you think this might apply to you, it only applies to the other guys.
Sarcasm aside, I would personally take it down. But, I'm a Yankee who thinks they had a right to succeed and the war should have been over slavery. I don't have the attachments to the Confederate flag that some others do. But, I lived in the south for almost 5 years and some people who displayed it were great people too. Lots of bigotry to go around.
Sarcasm aside, I would personally take it down. But, I'm a Yankee who thinks they had a right to succeed and the war should have been over slavery. I don't have the attachments to the Confederate flag that some others do. But, I lived in the south for almost 5 years and some people who displayed it were great people too. Lots of bigotry to go around.
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Mr. Eisenberg, you write, "...I'm a Yankee who thinks they had a right to succeed and the war should..." Are you saying that they southern states were entitled to "succeed" in their principal endeavor, which was slavery, or did you really mean that they had a right to SECEDE? Perhaps before indulging yourself as an historian, it might be a worthwhile idea to learn some essential terminology.
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It is time to remove the confederate flag from any public buildings. To many it is a symbol of hate and prejudice. I see people writing about free speech, but I have not seen someone suggest that a person cannot have a Confederate flag, the issue is should a state be flying the flag at public buildings. The fact that it is flown is a symbol that that state thinks it is acceptable when in fact a significant portion of their citizens may not agree. I just do not understand how a state can endorse flying the flag when to many it is a visible symbol that reminds us that these states thought it was moral to enslave other human beings.
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Fact: Before Amazon eliminated Confederate flags from its website today, there was a 2,500% INCREASE in Confederate flag sales in just 24 hours. Sadly, this will not go away quietly in the night. Like wounded animals, subversives are most dangerous when they feel isolated and cornered. Let's stand vigilant against lone wolves whenever possible.
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Good, reminds me of what happens when someone mentions gun control. There will always be a company willing to bake a cake with Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia on it.
A monster commits a crime so savage and unthinkable that we are wholly consumed by shock and grief. When that wears off, we are consumed by a need to act. What can we do? The monster carried a symbol, one that also flies over seat of government power in South Carolina. So we take up the cause to banish the flag---we must do something, after all.
But what happens when we turn inward? The monster who commits the massacre is born of a thousand monsters and our country, one that was built on the backs of Black slaves. Shootings in Black churches are part of our history. Yes, the Confederate flag represents our legacy of racism and should be removed, but look around; our legacy of racial exploitation (initially) and exclusion (that came later) is legible in our economy and built environment. Our schools may be integrated, but I invite you to take a tour of our country's inner-city public schools. Our cities are disparate patchworks of development and pockets of concentrated poverty. We are all participants in our national legacy of racial brutality because every single one of us has either profited from it (however indirectly) or been harmed by it (don't get me started on the police).
I think Obama knows this, based on his recent speech. Many more are just now waking up to this reality. I don't know if it can be fixed, but we need to try. What should we do? (After the flag?)
But what happens when we turn inward? The monster who commits the massacre is born of a thousand monsters and our country, one that was built on the backs of Black slaves. Shootings in Black churches are part of our history. Yes, the Confederate flag represents our legacy of racism and should be removed, but look around; our legacy of racial exploitation (initially) and exclusion (that came later) is legible in our economy and built environment. Our schools may be integrated, but I invite you to take a tour of our country's inner-city public schools. Our cities are disparate patchworks of development and pockets of concentrated poverty. We are all participants in our national legacy of racial brutality because every single one of us has either profited from it (however indirectly) or been harmed by it (don't get me started on the police).
I think Obama knows this, based on his recent speech. Many more are just now waking up to this reality. I don't know if it can be fixed, but we need to try. What should we do? (After the flag?)
2
It is completely telling that in South Carolina the Codfederate flag started flying over the Captiol in 1962. That was the height of southern backlash to Brown versus. For a century before that, that symbol didn't really matter than much, but all of sudden it was "heritage". Right. It was racist backlash. The timing of it cant be denied.
It is time for it to go. It is time for it to go. Everywhere. Museums? OK. On official state property as an emblem? Never again.
It is time for it to go. It is time for it to go. Everywhere. Museums? OK. On official state property as an emblem? Never again.
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Roof did not kill because of racism, he killed who he killed on account of race and others have done the same, but nobody does as he did unless they were already of a mind to kill somebody a long time before it came into his mind to kill who he did. People who relate, empathize, in a normal way must convince themselves that anyone to who they do great harm they must dehumanize first or they just cannot do that harm. Anyone who sits and observes people for an hour or more loses that distance, that lack of recognizing other people with their similarities to themselves and others they care greatly about which inhibits the intent to harm them. It takes a stone cold killer to kill anyway, and a twenty one year old who picked up his negative attitudes on the internet is not going to develop that kind of callousness. Roof is one of those people who have grown up to want to kill others and will do so no matter the apparent proximate motivation seems to be. Racist white supremacy was just a convenient narrative for him to explain what he was compelled to do but which he did not really understand himself.
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Finally, someone who understands that Roof picked racism as the reason to rationalize murder.
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Faced with a momentous decision on whether to retire the Confederate Battle Flag to a museum, SC legislators say it will take weeks to make a decision. During this time, we can expect them to reach back in the state's heritage to prepare speeches to deliver that quote the following:
"I hold that in the present state of civilization, where two races of different origin, and distinguished by color, and other physical differences, as well as intellectual, are brought together, the relation now existing in the slaveholding States between the two, is, instead of an evil, a good–a positive good." - John C Calhoun, famous SC Senator in 1836
"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." - Alexander Stephens, VP of Confederate States of America
"I wanna tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that there's not enough troops in the army to force the southern people to break down segregation and admit the n..... race into our theatres into our swimming pools into our homes and into our churches." - Strom Thurmond, SC Senator during his 1948 presidential campaign
"I hold that in the present state of civilization, where two races of different origin, and distinguished by color, and other physical differences, as well as intellectual, are brought together, the relation now existing in the slaveholding States between the two, is, instead of an evil, a good–a positive good." - John C Calhoun, famous SC Senator in 1836
"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." - Alexander Stephens, VP of Confederate States of America
"I wanna tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that there's not enough troops in the army to force the southern people to break down segregation and admit the n..... race into our theatres into our swimming pools into our homes and into our churches." - Strom Thurmond, SC Senator during his 1948 presidential campaign
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