The Confederate flag is the symbol of treason flying over the Capitol grounds of the birthplace of secession. The people of South Carolina committed treason against the United States in 1861. If they wish to hew to their "heritage", then it is time for them to depart the Union forevermore. Good riddance.
4
Unless the GOP figures out a way not to be divisive, patronizing and condescending towards anyone who is not a white male voter, they will never win the White House again, (unless they steal it like Jeb! did for his brother in 2000.)
7
Echo chambers abound. I saw four guests - three black, one Latino - on the Nightly show with Larry Wilmore leave unchallenged claims that DSR's father bought him the gun he used, not acknowledging that the father has denied this; and also citing the fact that DSR drove pass several churches as supporting the notion he carefully chose his targeted church; though he obviously chose that church you can not drive anywhere in the 'Holy City' without passing churches.
South Caroling is one of the three states I have never visited. It will rmain such until the confederate flag is removed fro public display at the capitol
10
South Carolina has no trouble in accepting $1.92 in Federal spending for every $1.00 it pays in taxes. Maybe we should just ask them how much they are willing to lose in order to fly the rebel flag.
32
Southern republicans who are looking to keep flying that divisive rag of hate are, backwards now, backwards tomorrow, and backwards forever, (thanks George Wallace.)
14
I can't beleive in the year 2014 that this is even a discussion. The confederate flag is a symbol of racism and hate. It shouldn't be flown anywhere let alone on a capitol building or government property!
17
The Confederate battle flag is seen as a symbol of defiance and southern heritage. Defiance of what?
The popular myth in the south is that the "north", the nation to which the south belonged, ordered that the slaves be put free, but the south, being strong willed, determined and insistent on doing things its own way, refused. This is total myth that, when told by people who should know better, becomes an outright lie.
What was at stake in the years up to and beyond the war was the political balance of the country. The south had used slaves, counting each as 3/4s of a human being in our Constitution, to maintain influence in Congress, especially the House. This was clearly coming to an end as western states would gradually entered the Union. The power to order the end of slavery by legislation was approaching. So, the wealthy, slave owning southerners convinced the poor, working class citizens to go off and fight and die for their cause and now, 150 yrs. later, the descendants of those soldiers are still trying to find ways to justify their deaths.
Why weren't the southerners treated as traitors after the war? Why didn't the killing they did for a treasonous cause get treated as murder? Because Lincoln and others valued keeping the nation whole more.
The factors that led to the Civil War are problems we face RIGHT NOW in America as the hard right tries, by every means imaginable, to hang on to power and get more. They seek the defeat of democracy in many varied ways.
20
The GOP candidates "do not want to risk offending the conservative white voters........."
At the risk of being offensive: One: This does not exactly sound like a profile in courage when presidential candidates are reluctant to do the right thing. Two: Those white voters who venerate the confederate flag are part of the problem and denouncing this symbol of hate and enslavement would be more than appropriate and praiseworthy.
Courage and strong convictions should not be a stranger to our leaders. Sadly, that is exactly where we find ourselves today.
At the risk of being offensive: One: This does not exactly sound like a profile in courage when presidential candidates are reluctant to do the right thing. Two: Those white voters who venerate the confederate flag are part of the problem and denouncing this symbol of hate and enslavement would be more than appropriate and praiseworthy.
Courage and strong convictions should not be a stranger to our leaders. Sadly, that is exactly where we find ourselves today.
15
Sad that so many think of the confederate flag as racist. Recall these southerners are mostly democrats and it was the party of Lincoln (wigs at the time, now the GOP) that waged war, won and freed American Blacks.
Regardless, there is slavery all around us today, just look at the entitlement system created by progressive liberals that ensnares so many American Blacks (and other races) to a lifetime of dependence (aka, slavery) yet those that support such a system feel good for themselves that they are helping when in fact they have created a massive government bureaucracy that no longer serves its fundamental purpose, rather now serves itself to become even larger at the expense of enslaving those that it is supposed to free. How ironic and hypocritical.
The confederate flag - it is not about slavery as many in this comment section believe, in this day and age, it is about freedom. Get it and move on.
Regardless, there is slavery all around us today, just look at the entitlement system created by progressive liberals that ensnares so many American Blacks (and other races) to a lifetime of dependence (aka, slavery) yet those that support such a system feel good for themselves that they are helping when in fact they have created a massive government bureaucracy that no longer serves its fundamental purpose, rather now serves itself to become even larger at the expense of enslaving those that it is supposed to free. How ironic and hypocritical.
The confederate flag - it is not about slavery as many in this comment section believe, in this day and age, it is about freedom. Get it and move on.
The Confederacy was founded by states that seceded because they wanted to preserve their ability to keep black slaves. This is a historical fact amply documented by historical evidence. Here is the South Carolina declaration of secession which says that it is seceding so that the US government will not interfere with South Carolina's institutions of slavery. It cannot be any clearer than that...unless, of course, you are determined to throw facts under the bus so you don't have to face up to the painful reality of your racist past. http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp
20
I can't imagine why "real Americans" like the Republicans have trouble understanding that 1. the confederacy seperated from the United States and violently opposed it. 2. The United States defeated them. 3. We would no more tolerate the flag of Germany, or Japan, or Afganistan or any other nation we defeated to be flown over any of our state capitals.
So what's the issue? The Confederacy lost, take down the flag!
So what's the issue? The Confederacy lost, take down the flag!
22
They "Tread Carefully" because their racist base pays a lot of their salaries and campaign donations.
18
If it’s true Republican candidates do not want to “risk offending conservative white voters” regarding the Confederate flag, then I can only assume Republican candidates find no objection in offending the Black community and any other community in South Carolina who vehemently opposes that flag. The only thing symbolic in the Confederate flag is the constant display of hate and racism as well as a racial divider. The removal of that flag is not only the right thing to do; it is also the first step of many necessary to help foster tolerance, understanding and respect in a community that is grieving. I am ashamed and embarrassed to call myself a Republican.
17
Defenders of the flag who champion it as "celebrating Southern heritage" should me more ingenuous and clarify that it celebrates "WHITE Southern heritage," or rather "the heritage of white Southerners who believe in the Lost Cause Myth of the Confederacy." That reframes the debate completely, because in no way does the Confederate battle flag represent the large proportion of the South that isn't white, or indeed all Southern whites.
20
Confederate flag is America's swastika, there is no other way to put it. A warped
sense of values wrapped up in ignorance, hate and paranoia.
sense of values wrapped up in ignorance, hate and paranoia.
31
The Confederate Battle Flag may come down, but it won't disappear from trucks, cars, and motorcycles. In fact, once it's been retired, it will gain prestige as a "banned" symbol of "heritage". It represents a lost cause, and nothing thrives like failure in South Carolina.
10
To clear up an apparent lack of understanding and education that readers here are demonstrating.
The Confederate States were many things, but they were not certainly NOT traitors. They simply wanted to leave the Union. A union which they voluntarily entered and which no law forbade them from leaving. The north invaded the south to force the Confederacy to stay in the Union. Fort Sumpter happened because the Union troops there would not leave after months of requests that they do so following South Carolina's secession. The area could reasonably have been considered South Carolina territory at this time. The act of secession, whatever it was, was definitely not treason.
Sad that the so called erudite readers of the NYT, who I thought had a higher level of understanding, are so ignorant. Read a book!
The Confederate States were many things, but they were not certainly NOT traitors. They simply wanted to leave the Union. A union which they voluntarily entered and which no law forbade them from leaving. The north invaded the south to force the Confederacy to stay in the Union. Fort Sumpter happened because the Union troops there would not leave after months of requests that they do so following South Carolina's secession. The area could reasonably have been considered South Carolina territory at this time. The act of secession, whatever it was, was definitely not treason.
Sad that the so called erudite readers of the NYT, who I thought had a higher level of understanding, are so ignorant. Read a book!
1
Further to my comment a few seconds earlier:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/21/dylann-roof-manifesto-cha...
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/21/dylann-roof-manifesto-cha...
I feel for those poor Republican candidates for the 2016 presidency. At present they must show some type of support or deference to the confederate flag, and later (post primaries) run as far away from it so that they can appeal to normal, mainstream Americans.
A true elasticity test: how far can you stretch, appeal to fringe and mainstream people, and not break in the process?
A true elasticity test: how far can you stretch, appeal to fringe and mainstream people, and not break in the process?
6
Governor Charlie Baker (R) of Massachusetts forgot who elected him and immediately made the statement the Flag should be left up the States. When he got his memory back he spent the weekend apologizing and back-peddling. The Flag is a symbol of hatred and should not be allowed to fly.
9
The Charleston Post and Courier is reporting this afternoon, in the East, that Gov. Haley will announce at 4PM today a request that the Confederate flag on the grounds of the state capital building be taken down. To do so, apparently, requires a vote of the legislature in her state, by two thirds.
If it happens, a very long overdue gesture will, in itself, be inadequate to deal with racist attitudes in America which Mr. Obama says are in our DNA. But heinous murders should not be the catalyst for change.
If it happens, a very long overdue gesture will, in itself, be inadequate to deal with racist attitudes in America which Mr. Obama says are in our DNA. But heinous murders should not be the catalyst for change.
11
I fully support the right of people to fly the Confederate Battle Flag. It makes it MUCH easier to tell who the racists are. Political correctness makes it easy for racists to hide their real feelings and agenda, as it takes away the words that enable others to identify them. But, where this flag flies, the racists are literally advertising themselves. Keep this flag flying!
9
"The carefully calibrated answers were a vivid illustration of the difficulties Republicans face in trying to broaden their party’s appeal to minorities while also energizing white conservatives."
"energizing white conservatives"? "energizing"?
"energizing white conservatives"? "energizing"?
6
Many candidates have simply ignored the issue concerning the Confederate flag and now they can not immediately answer the question of their attitude to the problem of racism, is it ok?
2
These political offspring of Republican Richard Nixon's Southern Strategy are hopeless.
8
The Republicans are masters at talking out of both sides of their collective mouth. They've been playing a "Southern strategy" for nearly 50 years, while attempting to deny that this attempt at courting Southern white voters is in any way racist. Their rhetoric about the Confederate flag -- that it is grounded in "Southern Pride" or, per Lindsey Graham, that it is part of their Southern "heritage" and part of who they are, is indeed transparently doublespeak: "Southern Pride" is an oxymoron -- the Confederacy should elicit shame -- as should this "heritage." Germany has banned open displays of the Nazi flag, and has worked hard to reconcile the shameful behavior of their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. While such outright bans on symbols of the Confederacy might not sit well with our instinctive urge to protect private speech, there is no reason why such a hateful symbol needs to receive government sanction at any level of government.
So, to the Republican elected officials of South Carolina (especially the likes of Joe Wilson), I say, tear down that flag! And to the rest of us, I suggest that if they don't do it, WE should.
So, to the Republican elected officials of South Carolina (especially the likes of Joe Wilson), I say, tear down that flag! And to the rest of us, I suggest that if they don't do it, WE should.
9
It's a symbol of hatred that has no place in this country.
It's got to go.
There is no doubt in anyone's mind about what it really means.
Any presidential candidate that doesn't agree with that is racist and irrelevant.
It's got to go.
There is no doubt in anyone's mind about what it really means.
Any presidential candidate that doesn't agree with that is racist and irrelevant.
12
The Confederate Flag conveys the idea "we were proud of owning slaves and wish we could still own all black people." Unfortunately, many in the South seem to understand and support this by the mere fact these Confederate flags still fly in 2015.
9
In 1987 in act 116 the Clinton's added a star to Arkansas flag to commemorate the Confederacy,
1
Ask the parishioners of that church how they feel about the confederate flag. Those parishioners will present the true "feel" of the flag. If they believe it's not a symbol of racism but of southern values, then let it fly and drop the issue. If they feel it is a reminder of the slave era in the South then legally ban it forever. Put it in a museum.
1
"They do not want to risk offending the conservative white voters who venerate the most recognizable emblem of the Confederacy and who say it is a symbol of their heritage."
The one word wrong in your description: "conservative." These are racist voters, right-wing voters, white supremacist voters, neo-Confederate voters; they are not conservative. I am a liberal Democrat, a southerner, and a conservative--because I believe in the premise and the promises of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both of which founding documents elevate liberty and equality as enlightenment principles (whether or not carried out in practice).
A true conservative voter loves this country and works to make it a better place for all. The voters being pandered to by GOP candidates are not conservatives.
The one word wrong in your description: "conservative." These are racist voters, right-wing voters, white supremacist voters, neo-Confederate voters; they are not conservative. I am a liberal Democrat, a southerner, and a conservative--because I believe in the premise and the promises of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both of which founding documents elevate liberty and equality as enlightenment principles (whether or not carried out in practice).
A true conservative voter loves this country and works to make it a better place for all. The voters being pandered to by GOP candidates are not conservatives.
4
The GOP has created a problem for themselves. They butter up the racists while they limit the African American populations' ability to vote. Uhm. Both horrible choices. But it is not a workable formula. Why can't they see that? They are so fearful of their own skin (re-election), that they can't see the forest for the trees.
And then there is the moral compass. When are they going to ever do what is right and just and moral? A confederacy of dunces.
And then there is the moral compass. When are they going to ever do what is right and just and moral? A confederacy of dunces.
9
Republicans = white racists
Confederate flag = slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings, racism
Confederate flag = slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings, racism
5
I say the South Carolina legislature should 86 it. Why are we trying to save a flag created by a bunch of southern DEMOCRATS? Democrats have been in favor of slavery and a class system since the ratification of the constitution. They are no different today. Republicans and demomcrats should stop trying to defend this democrat symbol of racism.
Well, the Confederate battle flag is indeed a symbol of South Carolina's heritage.
So are hoop skirts, mules, mud roads and malaria.
I don't imagine that more than a tiny oddball percentage of the state's residents cling to those formerly ubiquitous vestiges of the past. With South Carolinians eager to ditch these reminders of their heritage in favor of shorts, automobiles, asphalt and modern medicine - to say nothing of air conditioning - their death embrace of the battle flag is confounding.
Unless, of course, it stands for something else entirely.
So are hoop skirts, mules, mud roads and malaria.
I don't imagine that more than a tiny oddball percentage of the state's residents cling to those formerly ubiquitous vestiges of the past. With South Carolinians eager to ditch these reminders of their heritage in favor of shorts, automobiles, asphalt and modern medicine - to say nothing of air conditioning - their death embrace of the battle flag is confounding.
Unless, of course, it stands for something else entirely.
27
Thank you, Representative Brannon. Algae is a great image, not only for the Confederate flag, but also for other instances of entrenched and creepily unacknowledged racism I saw when I lived in the Charleston area for 2 years.
5
Without the Deep South -- basically Texas across to Georgia (and yes South Carolina) -- the GOP is finished, both in control of Congress and the White House.
Why? Those states tend to vote GOP as a block (gee, I wonder if race is a factor). Of course, other Southern states are important too -- but these are the core of the GOP and deeply influence other Southern states in the sense of similar voting patterns.
Outside the South, many/most red states have relatively large land masses but small population, e.g., Montana, Idaho.
So the GOP *must* hold the Deep South to survive -- it is the key to the rest of the South, the South is the GOP stronghold for the US -- and racism (and its symbol, the Confederate flag) is in the DNA of the Deep South.
Roof is just an example of it.
Put another way, the GOP has given up on winning black votes -- but thinks it needs the racist vote to have even a shot at the White House. Too bad the train left the station. The Reagan Coalition (white Evangelicals, white working class and business groups) won the popular vote for the White House exactly *once* since *1988* -- in 2004 -- and that was with the help of an anti-gay-marriage initiative in Ohio and 44% of the Latino vote (Romney got 27% of this growing vote).
The anti-gay issue no longer works well and the Latino vote is even bigger. But hey, hold on to that shrinking white racist vote and Confederate flag, GOP...
Why? Those states tend to vote GOP as a block (gee, I wonder if race is a factor). Of course, other Southern states are important too -- but these are the core of the GOP and deeply influence other Southern states in the sense of similar voting patterns.
Outside the South, many/most red states have relatively large land masses but small population, e.g., Montana, Idaho.
So the GOP *must* hold the Deep South to survive -- it is the key to the rest of the South, the South is the GOP stronghold for the US -- and racism (and its symbol, the Confederate flag) is in the DNA of the Deep South.
Roof is just an example of it.
Put another way, the GOP has given up on winning black votes -- but thinks it needs the racist vote to have even a shot at the White House. Too bad the train left the station. The Reagan Coalition (white Evangelicals, white working class and business groups) won the popular vote for the White House exactly *once* since *1988* -- in 2004 -- and that was with the help of an anti-gay-marriage initiative in Ohio and 44% of the Latino vote (Romney got 27% of this growing vote).
The anti-gay issue no longer works well and the Latino vote is even bigger. But hey, hold on to that shrinking white racist vote and Confederate flag, GOP...
6
What's most shaming is the quote from a black S. Carolina Senator, Tim Scott who's "voice will be clear" on the confederate flag issue after he mourns. Where are the voices of Condoleezza Rice, Armstrong Williams and the other black Republicans? Absolutely disgusting.
9
The weasel worded comments of most of the republican presidential wannabes called to mind Ronald Reagan's statement about the Berlin wall to USSR's Gorbachev-- "tear down that wall Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall "
Take down that flag Governor Haley, take down that flag.
Take down that flag Governor Haley, take down that flag.
3
Why do the white supremacists feel it necessary to tell everyone that they are superior except that down deep inside they apparently realize that far from being superior they are actually run of the mill human beings if not actually inferior themselves? Going around trying to put down non-whites in an effort to make yourself feel like somebody who is superior because he or she was born with a particular skin color is a pretty childish game that only someone who is not too bright could make themselves believe. Where are the Lindsey Grahams and other South Carolina leaders when they should be educating their followers that the Civil War should be left to history and not kept alive by bigots with a need for kidding themselves. There are probably just as many inferior whites as there are inferiors of any other skin color so let us wake up all those still trying to live in slave days and bring them into the 21st century with freedom for all. How about speaking out for the democratic equality we all want Lindsey Graham and other South Carolina and southern state leaders! It's certainly about time to hear you stand up for all our citizens.
5
Nice to know that the SC Chamber of Commerce will take the issue up at the next meeting next month. The SC Chamber of Commerce has supported this symbol of racial hatred and slavery for all these years? The SC Chamber have tolerated and encouraged the voters of SC to believe that this is a symbol of their heritage rather than symbol of treason? Nice to see capitalism at work and may I encourage anyone doing business with SC business to boycott them until the SC Chamber to figure they are supporting racial hatred.
7
No matter what they say the Republicans will win no votes over the flag issue. That boat has sailed. The Democrats own all the ant-flag vote and always have.
2
To the elite 1% of the day the Civil War was a way to maintain slavery in order to keep their private profits high through free labor.
To the soldiers who fought and died in the Civil War it was sold as a fight for "freedom" against an oppressive northern presence.
Nothing new under the sun there, yet some people will always buy the rhetoric of the 1%, and will fight and die for their cause.
To the soldiers who fought and died in the Civil War it was sold as a fight for "freedom" against an oppressive northern presence.
Nothing new under the sun there, yet some people will always buy the rhetoric of the 1%, and will fight and die for their cause.
2
This flag is the legacy of the notion, motivated by a desire for national reconciliation, that there was a moral equivalence between the side that fought to preserve slavery, and the side that ended it. It wasn't true then, and it isn't true now. It will remain flying so long as white South Carolinians refuse to face up to the evil inherent in the Confederate cause.
6
How terribly sad that the party of Abraham Lincoln has fallen to such depths of cowardice and hypocrisy -- but with the likes of Cruz, Bachman, Santorum, Bush, and the rest of the disgusting loathsome pack -- it certainly isn't surprising!
8
This is not your parents' GOP. We former GOP voters are appalled at today's racists and haters in the Republican Party. When they can't even denounce a racist flag, that's unforgivable.
7
As a Muslim African-American citizen and author of the book "We Fundamentalists," I am not surprise of the level of racism that we have here in America! For 48 years millions of white Americans had thought this era of hate was behind them as a Western secular society! Yet, we Afro-Americans knows that this event in Charleston church massacre only mirrors that inconvenient truth of whats hidden in the hearts of millions of white people who are our neighbors! To blame this act on the gun is an illusory by our deceitful politicians. Yes, to say this hateful murderous racist act and that Confederate flag meaning of oppression upon blacks and other minorities is a a pragmatic truth that racism is alive and growing in our American society, regardless of our worthless Republican and Democrat parties, despite an African-American president in the White House just talking about change!
2
The Union had different battle flags representing each regiment. I have yet to see any of them flying. I would say that it is a bit anachronistic of South Carolina flying the Confederate Battle Flag, since the war ended 150 years ago. It is way past time to retire it in a museum.
4
Do not forget, the last flag of the confederacy was...wait for it...white. Grant was right happy to take custody of it, unconditionally
1
I too had no idea that the flying of the Confederate flag in South Carolina was in response to the Civil Rights movement becoming prominent in 1962. How awful.
4
Republicans can try all they want, but they made their bed with conservative racists, and now they can sleep in it. Talk is cheap, but we know where the Republicans stand. We know.
7
This just in - Haley gets at last that it looks well, awkward to have a man who was murdered by hate, lying in state feet from that full masted flag of hate, and is asking really nice if the nice folk in the legislature would you know, take it down - no doubt until the heat of off.
http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/remove-the-confederate-3
517,000+
http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/remove-the-confederate-3
517,000+
3
Wednesday Pastor Pinckney, also an elected representaive will lie in state at the Capitol, the distance between his body, murdered by a racist who wrapped himself in it, and that flag flying at full mast will be measureed in feet. What a cruel and petty bunch the people of South Carolina are to allow that. http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/remove-the-confederate-3 516,000 + have let them know.
7
Same as a Swastika flying over courthouse in Bavaria. The difference being, the Germans have more sense of decency than to allow it. Imagine that.
6
The Confederate flag represents slavery, lynchings and Jim Crow, the South's "peculiar" institutions. Would we tolerate flying a swastika above a state Capitol?
10
It must indeed be difficult for republican candidates to tread carefully in criticism of the confederate flag, when that flag symbolizes the strategy the Republican party has purposefully employed for getting votes- pander to prejudice and hate. Republicans are shameless in the lengths to which they will go to help the rich get richer.
7
What ever happened to the party of "moral values" the Republicans claim they are? Well, since they've claimed nearly every war opportunity that comes along as their "moral" obligation to fight, why not support the treason and remember on southern flagstaffs the subsequent War against the States?
5
I have another idea. How about us "Dam- Yankees" taking South Carolina off our vacation list. I have been there, once, and enjoyed the trip . Charleston was charming and the natives were polite. We were ignored in a boutique-I imagine our Yankee inflections offended their tender southern ears. Altho it
is a nice place to visit , you will not miss a thing if you decide to boycott them. Visit Kentucky, Louisana or North Carolina. If they want your tourist dollars, you will be treated well and see some interesting places. I think if the northerners skipped S.C. and spent their Yankee dollars in another state, the business folks in S.C. might use their influence to turn S.C. into a state of the United States, instead of the heart of the Old Dominion. The flag is just a reminder of their disloyalty to their country and the fact that their ancestors were responsible for the deaths of thousands of young men, for what purpose. To continue to enslave humor beings. What a high minded bunch of rednecks they are!
is a nice place to visit , you will not miss a thing if you decide to boycott them. Visit Kentucky, Louisana or North Carolina. If they want your tourist dollars, you will be treated well and see some interesting places. I think if the northerners skipped S.C. and spent their Yankee dollars in another state, the business folks in S.C. might use their influence to turn S.C. into a state of the United States, instead of the heart of the Old Dominion. The flag is just a reminder of their disloyalty to their country and the fact that their ancestors were responsible for the deaths of thousands of young men, for what purpose. To continue to enslave humor beings. What a high minded bunch of rednecks they are!
7
If a state insists on flying the flag of the CSA, then let the CSA finance their public works. Stop Federal funding to upgrade Charleston harbor.
1
We were persuaded to go to supposedly the best "comedy" club there a couple of years ago and left in disgust at the blatantly racist and anti-Obama "jokes" that the warm-up and headliner "comedians" relied on to whip the local yokels in a frenzy of guffawing hilarity. Not to mention that Myrtle Beach is beyond tacky and the carriage horses in Charleston are abused and corralled in the blazing sun when they aren't pulling tons of overweight tourist in their buggies. We won't be spending our vacation dollars there again any time soon.
2
This is the flag of Conspiracy,treachery,treason and assassination. It should not fly over any public building in this country.
7
Just in case we needed any confirmation that Bush, Rubio and Walker are spineless cowards with no moral compass, we just got it. They *want* more African American votes but they don't have the courage to simply do the right thing in a case as clear-cut as this. It's not a matter of states' rights here either because of the First Amendment: they're well within their rights to say that they think the flag should be removed. They simply don't have the backbone to do it.
If they are paralyzed by a case as simple as this, heaven help us if any of them ever came to power and had to make some actual important decisions.
If they are paralyzed by a case as simple as this, heaven help us if any of them ever came to power and had to make some actual important decisions.
8
As a former German Citizen would it be ok for me to fly the swastika because 'after all, it IS part of my heritage"? It's a symbol of hate and intolerance, just like the Confederate Flag. None of them should be flown, anywhere again, ever.
7
The only pleasure in this "debate" are the pretzels these Republicans are twisted. On issue after issue, they are twisted up in hypocrisy. Anti science, anti reason, anti compromise, anti economics and now anti racism.
6
Republicans have cultivated hatred for government as they seek to govern. Their constituents include voters who say that "our guns are in our hands for people like those in our government right now that think they wanna go tyrannical on us, we’ve got something for ‘em. That’s what it’s all about."
Treading carefully? They're rightly worried that every crowd they face includes someone who thinks like this.
Treading carefully? They're rightly worried that every crowd they face includes someone who thinks like this.
4
Americans deserve presidential candidates who demonstrate a capacity for discernment.
"After Friday, when Mr. Bush initially seemed reluctant to ascribe the killings to race, his rivals were blunt on the question."
Instead Jeb Bush stumbles and fumbles on matters that were literally life-or-death: an obviously racially-motivated massacre last week and the invade-Iraq issue two months ago.
Whether the "get it wrong" then "get it right" response is natural or contrived, Mr. Bush is telling us a lot about himself.
"After Friday, when Mr. Bush initially seemed reluctant to ascribe the killings to race, his rivals were blunt on the question."
Instead Jeb Bush stumbles and fumbles on matters that were literally life-or-death: an obviously racially-motivated massacre last week and the invade-Iraq issue two months ago.
Whether the "get it wrong" then "get it right" response is natural or contrived, Mr. Bush is telling us a lot about himself.
27
As a white southern male I have been exposed to the real attitudes of white citizens when they think everyone in the room already agrees with them. And let me be clear. They make no bones about their racism, their hatred. They may hem and haw and use coded language when the broader public is watching, but we who live here know exactly what many, many white southerners think. The only progress made in the last 40 years is that racism has been forced underground and into various codes (heritage, states' rights). Its subterranean existence makes it no less dangerous to all citizens.
8
The confederate flag is a symbol of hatred and should be removed from the South Carolina Capitol building. Those who continue to claim the flag as part of their heritage can display it privately if they so desire. It is astounding why anyone will want to be affiliated with a symbol that represent the Inhumanity of slavery.
8
The republicans will prattle on and on about this flag thing doing what they've always done about situations that they're afraid will lose them votes. The gerrymandering and vote suppression hasn't been enough for them now we have this despicable flag that flies it's glorified hatred for all to see. The racists will whine about their freedom of speech. The republicans will cowardly whine that the decision belongs to the state, all except for Romney who is saying to take it down. Never thought I'd ever agree with that man but he's right. The bottom line is - that rag of a flag shows the world how hatred has been carefully nurtured in our country and there are those who simply cannot get over the fact that the south lost the Civil War (1861-65). It's not a part of cultural history it's abject hatred. Take that despicable rag down!
5
The reason that no Republican candidates are calling for South Carolina to take down its Confederate flags is because Republicans know they have to count on the votes of racists to win the presidency. Without the racist vote, no Republican candidate is going to the White House--racists, homophobes, misogynists and the uneducated are all the Republicans can count on. This is the same guiding principle that requires Republican candidates who were previously in favor of immigration reform to flip-flop on the issue once they decide to run for president. And standing up to racists takes guts, apparently which none of the Republican candidates has very much of.
8
The official statement of the states who rebelled against the federal government is just that: it was a rebellion and the culprits must be punished. The flag itself, unlike what politicians say, is not a state of SC issue, but one of national import because it is a symbol of rebellion, unless the state of SC is calling for another rebellion, and requisite punishment again, the national government must act to declare flying the flag an act of terrorism. If a person were to commit an act of terror and sow a flag of a jihadist of one strip or another, it wold be labeled an act of terror. Flying the rebellion fag, should ipso facto, be national crime and punished by severe jail time for an person or state official to fly or own the flag. Enough nonsense has been said about the culture of the south as a positive force; we must now view flying or possessing it is a criminal act.
2
Freedom of speech has no bearing here? States rights also mean nothing anymore? The South was partly fighting for an immoral issue but also partly on state sovereignty issue. Not all southerns held slaves and many detested the institution just as millions of us American's detest child labor and slave wage labor but still exist within the realm of the benefits if offers us at the checkout counter. The Klan used the burning cross as a symbol to invoke fear. The Nazi's used the Buddhist/Hindu Swastika as a symbol of fascist Germany did they remove the symbolism from their iconography. Seems like this is a political ploy to ensure the death of states rights at a time when the federal government is bearing down hard on state/citizen power to the point of omnipotence. There are those of the mind that oligarchy is gonna be the last call on America's fate. Maybe they are right. But of course they must rid the nation of it's guns, independent psychology, and any history or future thought of rebellion against the Washington free trade dictators who hypocritically claim to stand by America while allowing corporate to stack their loot over seas and take employment with them. In the best of worlds we would not recognize race, religion, nation, ethnicity, or any other difference; unfortunately we are not there and the greed mongers will ensure we stay divisive. You see if we were a real nation we wouldn't throw our own by the wayside. Hypocrisy & internal imperialism.
American patriots fought so hard to gain freedom from England. But then after losing to America, the British turned around and banned slavery without a civil war. That's what the Confederate flag means to me. It means Americans had to fight a bloody war to accomplish what our former colonial overlords accomplished using Parliament and rule of law. That's not something Americans should really feel proud about. The British people should feel proud instead. They beat us to it by a long shot and didn't have to rip their country in half to get it done.
4
I grew up in Texas, so grew up with positive notions of "The South" and the Confederate Flag. Looking at it as a grownup, it boils down to who won the Civil War. Having laws saying the Confederate Flat should fly on your State grounds, falls to the level of treason. THE SOUTH LOST THE CIVIL WAR!!! Put that flag in a museum. Otherwise, put it away. It does not belong!
7
Gee, those poor G.O.P. presidential candidates, trying to formulate a campaign platform that will attract both minorities and people who think it is a good idea to discriminate against and kill minorities, What a quandary.
Heaven forbid that they do the right thing - that could be political suicide.
Heaven forbid that they do the right thing - that could be political suicide.
3
The hypocrisy amazes me. If someone in Getmany wanted to fly a Nazi flag as "a part of their heritage" - what would be said???? The fact that people even want to fly it says a lot.
3
I see no difference between anyone flying the ISIS flag or a Confederate flag. Both acts are of traitors who have sought or are seeking the overthrow of America and everything it stands for.
5
The United States is a federal republic with significant powers vested at the state level. Don't like the choices South Carolina makes regarding a Confederate battle flag? Exercise your right not to visit.
Also exercise your right to express your feelings to elected officials such as:
Governor Nikki Haley (R) , an Indian-American, and Senator Tim Scott (R), an African-American.
I am sure they will be interested in hearing how racist you think their state is.
Also exercise your right to express your feelings to elected officials such as:
Governor Nikki Haley (R) , an Indian-American, and Senator Tim Scott (R), an African-American.
I am sure they will be interested in hearing how racist you think their state is.
2
The photo of "a black jacket adorned" with patch flags of Pre-Socialist ("modern day") Republic of South Africa and Post Productive Rhodesia was dumped for another "Dixie" photo (a la Michael Brown's liquor, guns and money selfie). A perfect pivot for an exhausted narrative into a recycled presidential election debate and the further fading of American history about 'Beauregard's Flag' of Robert E. Lee's, Army of Northern Virgina.
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2013/11/03/kanye-west-wears-confede...
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2013/11/03/kanye-west-wears-confede...
1
Even when someone who just killed 6 god fearing African Americans and used the flag as part of his racist hate monger beliefs, you can't even take down that very same flag off a Government building and presidential candidates "struggle" with any mention /opinion on it at all...
What is wrong with You?
Why won't you give even the smallest of concessions to African Americans who are demeaned and even denied their lives on a daily basis for some of the most insidiously weak and wrong excuses/reasons.
The Survivors of the massacre somehow had hearts so big, they forgave the Murderer...
Yet you and your supposed leaders can't even decide, talk about and ultimately take down a Defunct (except to supremacists, racists and hate groups) Flag.
What a petty , spiteful, unemphatic people you show yourselves to be.
So unworthy & lacking in moral fiber, it defies belief.
And shows just how little you will give the Black Americans of ANYTHING.
What is wrong with You?
Why won't you give even the smallest of concessions to African Americans who are demeaned and even denied their lives on a daily basis for some of the most insidiously weak and wrong excuses/reasons.
The Survivors of the massacre somehow had hearts so big, they forgave the Murderer...
Yet you and your supposed leaders can't even decide, talk about and ultimately take down a Defunct (except to supremacists, racists and hate groups) Flag.
What a petty , spiteful, unemphatic people you show yourselves to be.
So unworthy & lacking in moral fiber, it defies belief.
And shows just how little you will give the Black Americans of ANYTHING.
5
Hatred, ignorance, treason and secession are for losers. The South traded our Constitutional ideals for their own material well-being and comfort, and Northern complicity is of course not a matter of controversy. However, Confederate symbols are as degenerate as any that represent opposition to American rights and freedom. Bloodshed and mortal sacrifice to preserve a state of bondage of fellow men cast as inferior... sounds a little ISIS-like.
3
I agree with all who want the flag taken down. It is a permanent symbol of the lack of reconciliation between the north and the south. I don't think all the people in the south support having the flag visible but the ones who do separate themselves from other Americans by this act.
16
What disturbs me is the idea that for Republican candidates the "politics of race" must come second to the appeal to white conservatives. Is that a way of acknowledging that white conservatives embrace a politics of hate?
4
The debate should be about the prevalence of gun violence in this country, the gun lobbyists, and the politicians who benefit from their contributions.
Concentrating the argument about the whether the Confederate flag should be flying on state house grounds plays into the republican strategy of obfuscation and mis-direction.
When the flag comes down, hey, that's over. On to the next mass shooting of innocent people, and the pesky task of further diversion of the public conversation away from the grotesque worship of guns in this country and the victims who pay the price for it. Have we forgotten about Sandy Hook?
Concentrating the argument about the whether the Confederate flag should be flying on state house grounds plays into the republican strategy of obfuscation and mis-direction.
When the flag comes down, hey, that's over. On to the next mass shooting of innocent people, and the pesky task of further diversion of the public conversation away from the grotesque worship of guns in this country and the victims who pay the price for it. Have we forgotten about Sandy Hook?
5
It's an outmoded, outdated and discredited Flag for Pete's sake!
No one in the last 50 years ever fought or were alive when it was an official representation of ANYTHING.
Except for supremacists, haters and racists , including the murderer of those parishioners...
Tear it down and burn it!
Why is there even discussion on this? How come Presidential candidates struggle with this?
What is wrong with any of you who think otherwise?
Madness.
And a callous disregard for victims murdered in that flags name/spirit over any person's supposed belief it should remain aloft...it is NOT more valuable or important than a single victims life.
How come so few of you don't know the basics of common decency respect and empathy?
It's such a no brainer I can only conclude too many American's have no brain whatsoever.
Ensuring that the disappointment you are causing so many also extends to any potential Zombie in any apocalypse to come.
No one in the last 50 years ever fought or were alive when it was an official representation of ANYTHING.
Except for supremacists, haters and racists , including the murderer of those parishioners...
Tear it down and burn it!
Why is there even discussion on this? How come Presidential candidates struggle with this?
What is wrong with any of you who think otherwise?
Madness.
And a callous disregard for victims murdered in that flags name/spirit over any person's supposed belief it should remain aloft...it is NOT more valuable or important than a single victims life.
How come so few of you don't know the basics of common decency respect and empathy?
It's such a no brainer I can only conclude too many American's have no brain whatsoever.
Ensuring that the disappointment you are causing so many also extends to any potential Zombie in any apocalypse to come.
9
The flag could be the next 1st amendment issue for the SCOTUS, for now, any Republican candidate who simply refuses to demand it's removal needs to openly admit that campaign money is way too important and alienating white male bigots who make those contributions far too risky at this point in the campaign to start acting like a real human being and start caring for anyone but yourself.....
4
My 3x's great grandfather lost part of his face fighting in war for the North. Our family was involved in the Underground Railroad. The confederate flag is a stain on America. The confederate flag stands for oppression of minorities as well as the atrocity that my family sought to end. My grandfather always talked about how that flag was considered to be disrespectful to the history of America. He talked about how proud he was to have a grandfather who fought for what was right. His serving in this country led to everyone of my grandfathers serving in a war to fight for freedom of ALL AMERICANS. How shameful to know a terrorist flag is allowed to hang at a capital in American. We need to stop this and respect those who fought for what the real flag of America represents, the flag of the United States of America. Not a terroristic confederacy.
11
It was the hotheads in Charleston who started it all, driving the country toward ruin and possible dissolution. Call it treason or a horrible miscalculation on a grand scale; it is time to quit "celebrating" the most painful period of our history.
7
It is and was treason, not a miscalculation
2
I understand that the Confederate flag, like it or not, became a symbol of the despicable and racist white supremacist movement.
It's interesting though, that so many people have such a simplistic view of the American Civil War. Anyone would think that the average American has never never read a scholarly book about the civil war outside of their high school textbook.
It's interesting though, that so many people have such a simplistic view of the American Civil War. Anyone would think that the average American has never never read a scholarly book about the civil war outside of their high school textbook.
1
The Confederate flag was never the Republicans flag. It was the southern democrats flag during the War Between the States. It the South's democrats that wanted to keep slavery. Read the Confederate Constitution. Furthermore, the KKK was started by angry democrats. Democrats have a poor history of advancing the African American.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/gran...
http://www.nationalblackrepublicans.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pages.DYKKK...
https://realdemocrathistory.wordpress.com/category/kkk/
http://www.wnd.com/2007/10/44171/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/gran...
http://www.nationalblackrepublicans.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pages.DYKKK...
https://realdemocrathistory.wordpress.com/category/kkk/
http://www.wnd.com/2007/10/44171/
2
Now tell me about Strom Thurmond.
3
Do some reading about desegregation and Nixon's Southern Strategy and get back to us.
Let's continue with the story...the Democrats and Republicans switched their constituencies during the Civil Right Era. The Dixie-crat Dems went to the GOP and continue to thrive there today.
Today's Republicans exhibit all the characteristics of yesterday's Democrats.
Today's Republicans exhibit all the characteristics of yesterday's Democrats.
2
In the South it's obviously cool to be anti-fed--even the state government does it. Kids grow up with those values. Sanctioned Southern Punk. For God's sake realize the Civil War was not civil at all--they fought for slavery, a dehumanized and dehumanizing objective. Besides--it's over.
And even more generally--"anti-fedism"--a form of anarchism is pushed even by Senate majority leader McConnell--due to the truly stupid American glorification of "freedom." It is not an elixir; but a complex relation--your freedom means the unfreedom of everyone else to put up with your often childish and uncivilized lifestyle choices--as though you were alone in the wilderness.
At first "freedom/liberty" meant--freedom from taxation and control by a foreign government--autonomy--the end of colonization. But then "land of the free" became free from government itself--anarchy became cool.
But it is also the end of civilization. The USA is degenerating into a wilderness--for what? Stupid rhetoric; Careless logic.
And even more generally--"anti-fedism"--a form of anarchism is pushed even by Senate majority leader McConnell--due to the truly stupid American glorification of "freedom." It is not an elixir; but a complex relation--your freedom means the unfreedom of everyone else to put up with your often childish and uncivilized lifestyle choices--as though you were alone in the wilderness.
At first "freedom/liberty" meant--freedom from taxation and control by a foreign government--autonomy--the end of colonization. But then "land of the free" became free from government itself--anarchy became cool.
But it is also the end of civilization. The USA is degenerating into a wilderness--for what? Stupid rhetoric; Careless logic.
6
"As though you were alone in the wildnerness" -- pefectly said. People live in communities, even in the U.S,, and "freedom" can't mean I do what I want and to hell with everyone else when you're inside a community (or depend on that community in any way).
A symbol of conservative white voter's heritage? If by that the useless Republican candidates for President mean that the Confederate flag is anything but a symbol of slavery, bigotry and hatred they are seriously misguided and are not worthy of any leadership position. Ask any Jew whose family members were gassed in Hitler's death camps whether they would like to see a Nazi flag flying on public buildings in Germany. The Confederate flag is nothing but a symbol of the vicious, depraved subjugation of one group of people by another. It needs to be wiped from the face of the earth now and forever.
11
True... Most of the former Conderates were Democrats (Dixie-) until Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Rights Bill
2
"They do not want to risk offending the conservative white voters who venerate the most recognizable emblem of the Confederacy and who say it is a symbol of their heritage." Which means they don't want to offend the racist wing of their base. Their heritage is centered on the enslavement of human beings and needs to be recognized as such.
5
You do realize those words are the opinion of the writer of this piece? Unfortunately, this article was not marked as an "Analysis" to denote the heavy opinion within it.
Let's not get too wound up about this flag business. We must remember the American flag flew on ships that provided protection and safe passage for many of the slave ships that brought the human cargo to our shores.
I suppose what bothers the modern liberal so much is that the Confederate Flag is an in-your-face symbol of refusal no matter the reason for owning or flying it. But bottom line--it's the past, time to move on. What matters is tomorrow and how we, as a nation, see ourselves today.
I suppose what bothers the modern liberal so much is that the Confederate Flag is an in-your-face symbol of refusal no matter the reason for owning or flying it. But bottom line--it's the past, time to move on. What matters is tomorrow and how we, as a nation, see ourselves today.
1
The NRA is pleased, I'm sure, that the national conversation has been directed toward the Confederate flag, and not on guns. While it seems the flag will likely be taken down at the Capitol, it'll be several months before it happens...several months of which guns will not be central to the conversation.
6
How can we (conservative or liberal) vote for any candidate that won't speak plainly and honestly. These candidates who are willing to bend their words for votes and popularity will surely only go on to act out their own whims (or others) as they see fit. They are, in other words, liars, and serve only themselves (or whomever paid the tab for their election).
40
Representative Brannon will find out, at the next election, how many of his constituents will accept that he has a buddy of a different race.
What white South Carolinians will have to accept is that their nonslaveholding ancestors fought and died bravely and valiantly for an economic system that put them at a disadvantage by forcing them to compete with slave labor and that ran counter to the philosophy (at the time virtually unique) on which their country had been founded. Pretending that the battle flag of Lee's army, first flown over the statehouse during the struggle for desegregation, has nothing to do with racism or treason is the sort of doublethink and self-brainwashing that is deeply embedded in the Southern soul. It represents a defiant refusal to seek and deal with the truth, the convoluted truth, about reality.
What white South Carolinians will have to accept is that their nonslaveholding ancestors fought and died bravely and valiantly for an economic system that put them at a disadvantage by forcing them to compete with slave labor and that ran counter to the philosophy (at the time virtually unique) on which their country had been founded. Pretending that the battle flag of Lee's army, first flown over the statehouse during the struggle for desegregation, has nothing to do with racism or treason is the sort of doublethink and self-brainwashing that is deeply embedded in the Southern soul. It represents a defiant refusal to seek and deal with the truth, the convoluted truth, about reality.
7
It's the equivalent of flag burning and as such is political speech protected by the First Amendment. I'm sorry it's offensive, but it's not really the flag that offends. It's that government officials in the state of South Carolina still believe in the values that the flag represents. Let's just be blunt about that. And taking the flag down won't change the hearts and minds of racist, rebellious individuals. What can accomplish that - that's what we need to try to focus on.
1
You can fly the flag personally, but as a symbol of state government -- a state that at present is still part of the United States -- it's not "political speech" but a state misrepresenting the country it's part of.
Any confederate flag is a symbol of treason. That is unarguable and is more than sufficient reason to remove it. It is odd to have all of these self-proclaimed patriots unable to come out forcefully for ending public and publicly sponsored display of a symbol of treason against these United States they want us to believe are so exceptional. It is of course also a symbol of racism, slavery, and terrorism.
4
Treading no more carefully than the Obama White House and the NYTIMES did when Nidal Malik Hasan, a U.S. Army major and psychiatrist, and advisor to the Obama campaign fatally shot 13 people. Hasan's captivity and association with the Muslim religion as a motivating factor were 'stage managed' by both of you for years. Your hypocrisy is, once again, noted.
Whatever ones feelings about displaying the Confederate flag, the saddest thing about this entire "debate" is its focus on the symbolic gesture as opposed to the concrete problem: how was Roof able to post crazy racist sentiments on line, yet still be approved to purchase a gun?
4
I believe the gun was a gift from stupid parents.
Every single Republican presidential candidate should have come out immediately and forcefully against flying the Confederate flag. They should have condemned the Charleston massacre as a racist hate crime and as white terrorism.
It is truly sad that their ambition to be president outweighs any understanding of the history of slavery in this country, and any sense of true morality.
These candidates are more than just an embarrassment for the United States. They further the racist, white supremacist agenda of the worst elements of society. By not strongly denouncing the flag and the hate behind it, by hemming and hawing, they give cover to an evil that remains a potent force in America.
It is truly sad that their ambition to be president outweighs any understanding of the history of slavery in this country, and any sense of true morality.
These candidates are more than just an embarrassment for the United States. They further the racist, white supremacist agenda of the worst elements of society. By not strongly denouncing the flag and the hate behind it, by hemming and hawing, they give cover to an evil that remains a potent force in America.
5
The GOP is a dying party because it shows that it cannot even reconcile the basic fact that the Confederate flag is a symbol of a disgraceful part of US history. For South Carolina to state that they want the flag flown as it is a part of their heritage only goes to show that racism is not dead in the South, rather it's being perpetuated from generation to generation.
The good people of South Carolina must come together to ban the state sponsored display of the Confederate flag and show the rest of the world that the Civil War is over and that we are a united country against racism of any kind.
The good people of South Carolina must come together to ban the state sponsored display of the Confederate flag and show the rest of the world that the Civil War is over and that we are a united country against racism of any kind.
8
Gutless. And no wonder.
3
I am sure the GOP is proud of their greatest president in history Abraham Lincoln; Ahem, I mean ashamed.
4
What do the stars and bars stand for? Slavery and all the generally brutality of it, rape of slave women -- none of this called to account by southern authorities -- the deaths of countless young southern men because of their leadership, and, oh yes, treasonous secession, igniting a war which it justly loss. Have I missed anything?
8
Mr. Governor, take that flag down! (To the tune of "Mr. Gorbachev...")
3
Ronald Reagan told Gorbachev "Tear down this wall" but apparently didn't notice that South Carolina is still flying a Confederate battle flag. Today's Republican presidential hopefuls need to step up and get this flag tore down.
7
Conservative thinkers are in overdrive trying to create soothing words that allow their politicians to paper over the Pope's encyclical, the attack in Charleston, and the flag at the capital in South Carolina. You can see from the scattershot comments here that they haven't agreed on a single unified response. And it's likely they won't be able to create one that appeals to more than the most ignorant sliver among us.
After Katrina, it took about 4 days for the conservative message machine to align on a response. We are four days into the above issues and still no response. That's good news. Retreating with their tails between their legs in next.
After Katrina, it took about 4 days for the conservative message machine to align on a response. We are four days into the above issues and still no response. That's good news. Retreating with their tails between their legs in next.
5
Southerners claim they need this flag to remind them of their heritage. A mint julep and some pulled pork should do the trick. The flag should go.
9
All this debate about the confederate flag masks the real issue. A mentally ill person was not flagged early enough for his racial hatred and allowed to roam free in society until he committed this massacre. We need better ways to identify whether someone is going to turn violent and carry out actions they have threatened in online forums and postings. Does the flag really matter in this case?
Let me ask you this ... if the flag was not displayed anywhere, would it have changed the behavior of Mr. Roof? Would he have not killed those people?
Let me ask you this ... if the flag was not displayed anywhere, would it have changed the behavior of Mr. Roof? Would he have not killed those people?
2
Do the victims of his actions not have the right to not see the symbolism of his hatred flying over their capitol?
1
Its origin and design signify secession. Its history celebrates hatred. Neither idea belongs in government. Why is this hard for our leaders to express?
6
Although most GOP contenders are reticent to directly confront the SC flag question, they are much more reluctant to discuss the real issue: guns in America.
As each of these tragedies unfolds, there always seems to be that convenient "diversion issue" with which the politicians can dazzle the public. Most often, it's the care of the mentally ill in America.
The GOP would certainly rather us discuss the appropriateness of the SC flag than discuss how they put the profits of gun and ammunition manufacturers above the safety of the nation's citizenry.
As each of these tragedies unfolds, there always seems to be that convenient "diversion issue" with which the politicians can dazzle the public. Most often, it's the care of the mentally ill in America.
The GOP would certainly rather us discuss the appropriateness of the SC flag than discuss how they put the profits of gun and ammunition manufacturers above the safety of the nation's citizenry.
3
It's tough to be the republican party when you are part of a political party that openly welcomes racists and intolerant people. How can they tread softly when it is their base.
6
Mr. Martin and Readers: A little economics may help to help to add perspective to this issue. In the days of slavery, as today, the demand for white and black labor could be viewed as substitutes for each other. As the price of black labor dives or approaches a market determined minimal amount due to the economic conditions prevailing during slavery; the price of its fungible substitute, white labor, will similarly be driven downward. The reasoning behind this economic concept describing this phenomenon is simply that the cross price elasticity of substitute goods is positive; meaning that a downward (negative) price movement by one good will generate a downward (negative) move in the price of the substitute good. The economic repercussions of this simple economic concept for whites is quite telling. Since whites' family disposable incomes would largely be determined by their wages, the incomes of white fathers, brothers, husbands, etc. would all be negatively impacted by the near zero wage-level for slaves. So the broad collateral damage arising from the protection of the economic right to own slaves included reduced wages to the majority of white wage earners with the reduced familial disposable incomes of such wages; all incurred, in order to generate economic rents for the slave-owning minority. [Monday, June 22, 2015, 1:05 p.m.; Greenville, NC]
1
If Republican candidates do not want to “risk offending conservative white voters” regarding the removal of the Confederate flag, then can it be assumed they find no objection in offending the Black community and any other community in South Carolina who vehemently opposes that flag? The only thing symbolic with the Confederate flag is the reminder of what it represents - hate and racism. The removal of that flag is the long overdue and right thing to do; it is also the first step to help cultivate tolerance, understanding and respect in a community that is grieving. I am ashamed and embarrassed to call myself a Republican.
4
In 2015, in a racially diverse country like the USA, there is no place for a flag which represents a disgraceful past, namely the deliberate and brutal subjugation of one race of people by another. The Confederate flag and slavery are inexorably linked and if there was ever a case for burning a flag, one could certainly be made for burning that one.
3
The flag represents an act of treason against the United States of America. The people who committed this treason did so in order the perpetuate slavery. This led to a war that killed 300 times as many Americans than were killed on September 11, 2001. If this was my heritage I would not be proud.
5
I'm tired of hearing/reading that the flag is a symbol of their "heritage." They say it without recognizing that their "heritage" is one of hate, repression, slavery and cowardice.
Take that flag down, now! Let's all boycott South Carolina the same way we boycotted Indiana for their hateful "religious freedom" law.
Take that flag down, now! Let's all boycott South Carolina the same way we boycotted Indiana for their hateful "religious freedom" law.
7
I can’t tell you how angry it makes me that in the face of nine murdered in South Carolina all we are talking about today is taking down a flag. It is like throwing a Band-Aid, one of the really tiny ones, at a man with a broken leg. In the face of so many problems, so many needs, all we can do is talk about doing something symbolic like taking down a flag, a flag that should have been taken down decades ago. And it isn’t even certain we will do it.
While Republican in Congress block gun control, job programs, infrastructure reform or any other reform that will alleviate inequality and the tensions it causes in the country today, we think removing the confederate flag will make everything all right. If we do it, it will be forgotten in a week.
No matter how many times people say it is just a start, the truth is if we do it, it will be all we do. It is disgusting that we will all pat ourselves on the back for it, think we are enlightened and have made progress, go back to watching America’s Got Talent and Game of Thrones and waiting for the next massacre.
While Republican in Congress block gun control, job programs, infrastructure reform or any other reform that will alleviate inequality and the tensions it causes in the country today, we think removing the confederate flag will make everything all right. If we do it, it will be forgotten in a week.
No matter how many times people say it is just a start, the truth is if we do it, it will be all we do. It is disgusting that we will all pat ourselves on the back for it, think we are enlightened and have made progress, go back to watching America’s Got Talent and Game of Thrones and waiting for the next massacre.
4
I cannot wait to hear that debate. Proposing the removal of the flag we have Don Trump, well known actor, financier and hotelier. Opposing the motion is Rush Limmbow, broadcaster and pharmaceutical engineer. It will be moderated by Mr. Duke, an accomplished explainer of things Republican.
1
483,026 American casualties occurred under the Confederate Flag. That they were Americans cannot be reversed nor should it be denied because of the act of a deranged Hater. The South's slave-based economy is long gone - a result paid for by 642,427 Union Soldiers whose flag we fly everywhere. Assuming that the Confederate flag only stands for race based hating trivializes the Civil War and denies history. Expunging the Confederate flag in a politically correct frenzy will do nothing to prevent Haters from hating.
1
Putting race aside for a minute, there is absolutely no reason for an outdated an flag that is no longer relevant to be flying over any State Government building. The Confederate flag should be moved to a museum where it belongs and replaced with the Stars and Stripes or office South Carolina flag.
2
Gov. Nikki Haley was born in an Indian Sikh family. Three years ago in Wisconsin, a white- supremacist killed 6 people in a Sikh temple. Now a similar incident has happened in her own state. If she had any sense, she should pull the flag down.
5
How many death threats do you think she routinely receives even without that?
The Confederate flag, a symbol of armed insurrection against the US Government, should not be displayed on any public property. To do so should have always been considered an act of treason, and therefore illegal and unconstitutional. Lindsay Graham's contention that the flag's association with this latest killer somehow changes the debate is laughable. This is only the latest chapter in a long, gruesome, incredibly cruel and violent history, all symbolized by that flag.
4
Thank you, New York Times, for keeping this comments list open. American citizens are expressing themselves pretty clearly, and it is very important to see citizen comments as compared to what candidates for President are saying, and not saying.
7
Mr. Romney is correct, the flag needs to be placed in a history museum of South Carolina. Something good must come out of this attack on Black Christians and the best would be to end the symbol of racial hatred flying over South Carolina's government grounds.
4
It was unfair to ask Scott Walker what he thought about the flag issue. He didn't have time to call the Koch brothers to ask them what he thought.
7
I agree that the flag needs to go - it is long, long overdue. I would guess the NYT intentionally used this somewhat blurry photo of the flag, as well, which was the correct decision IMO, as this flag does not need any further "glorification."
2
The Confederate flag controversy is a 1st Amendment issue. People take pride in the flag for many reasons, most of which have no racist overtones at all. I tend to associate the Confederate flag with historic significance, and with a defeated slave-holding almost-state from 1865. I understand how others may associate it with southern pride, or as a symbol of their heritage. I abhor the sight of burning the American flag, but will advocate for the right to do so.
5
If you live in Charleston (as I used to), you will understand that there are undeniable racial overtones there in the popularity of this flag. 1st amendment also allows you to fly a swastika flag over your house, but don't put it over my state house.
2
The free speech right belongs to individuals. A government should not pick sides and fly a flag that at least 28% of the state's population sees as hatefully oppressive. You should feel free to fly your heritage flag anytime you want--just don't ask the state's black population to pay taxes to support the maintenance of your symbol.
2
They're nine *people* who happen to be African-American. Omitting that key word deprives them of some of their humanity and portrays them as one-dimensional defined by race. Pretty sloppy journalism, that.
2
Talk about people who just don't get it:
http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/HaireoftheDog/archives/2015/06/22/sc-...
http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/HaireoftheDog/archives/2015/06/22/sc-...
Gee Pat, what are you talking about?
David H. Wilkins, a Republican former speaker of the State House who played a critical role in brokering the compromise to take the flag off the Capitol dome, said corporate executives would start a dialogue about the flag.
“I’m hearing already that many chambers of commerce around the state are planning to discuss the issue,” he said, predicting “a meaningful discussion after people have had a chance to grieve and heal.”
And ultimately that's how the GOP/TP, the party of business, will settle the issue: not over morality but over money and the negative impact the flag will have on South Carolina's economy.
“I’m hearing already that many chambers of commerce around the state are planning to discuss the issue,” he said, predicting “a meaningful discussion after people have had a chance to grieve and heal.”
And ultimately that's how the GOP/TP, the party of business, will settle the issue: not over morality but over money and the negative impact the flag will have on South Carolina's economy.
5
Want to know how South Carolina would remove the flag in five seconds?
If their mainly EUROPEAN Automotive plants (Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, Michelin, Continental, Bridgestone) told them to, that's how...
If their mainly EUROPEAN Automotive plants (Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, Michelin, Continental, Bridgestone) told them to, that's how...
4
In Georgia and Alabama the folks still refer to the CONTINUING War of Northern Aggression. They openly talk about how much they HATE all Yankees.
They are bitter people who cling to their guns and are absolutely certain that Obama is going to declare martial law thus not allowing any Republican to take office. When George Zimmerman was declared innocent, huge tractor-trailers carried bumper stickers that said “Honk if you think Trayvon Martin was a criminal.” Oh white folks thought it was hilarious.
When Obama said that he could have had a son who looked like Trayvon, people went CRAZY down here with anger. Racism and hatred bubble barely below the surface and explodes with seemingly innocent comments by our POTUS with Fox News egging them on.
So many trucks and carsv carry flags of their favorite SEC schools along with confederate flags EVERYWHERE. One particularly low information, low educated family has the Stars and Bars in every window with a battalion sized Confederate Battle flag flying over their home. A nice black family lives across from them. The flags did NOT go up until this family moved in.
These pathetic jerks think it’s hilarious. They were talking about burning a cross in their yard. I called the Deputy Sheriff who saw no problem. “Oh they’re good ole boys..they won’t hurt anyone.” They’re hurting them RIGHT NOW!
Can you imagine how terrified this family is everyday? They have two daughters 8 and 10.
They are bitter people who cling to their guns and are absolutely certain that Obama is going to declare martial law thus not allowing any Republican to take office. When George Zimmerman was declared innocent, huge tractor-trailers carried bumper stickers that said “Honk if you think Trayvon Martin was a criminal.” Oh white folks thought it was hilarious.
When Obama said that he could have had a son who looked like Trayvon, people went CRAZY down here with anger. Racism and hatred bubble barely below the surface and explodes with seemingly innocent comments by our POTUS with Fox News egging them on.
So many trucks and carsv carry flags of their favorite SEC schools along with confederate flags EVERYWHERE. One particularly low information, low educated family has the Stars and Bars in every window with a battalion sized Confederate Battle flag flying over their home. A nice black family lives across from them. The flags did NOT go up until this family moved in.
These pathetic jerks think it’s hilarious. They were talking about burning a cross in their yard. I called the Deputy Sheriff who saw no problem. “Oh they’re good ole boys..they won’t hurt anyone.” They’re hurting them RIGHT NOW!
Can you imagine how terrified this family is everyday? They have two daughters 8 and 10.
11
Thanks for giving some on-the-ground reality to this discussion. I think most people who haven't spent much time in the South don't really realize how completely acceptable nonchalant, everyday racism is in many parts of the South.
"They are bitter people who cling to their guns and are absolutely certain that Obama is going to declare martial law thus not allowing any Republican to take office."
LOL. Thanks for sharing, I hadn't heard that one. These people need tranquilizers - they were freaked out like it was Armageddon when Obama took office, the sky was falling, and they'll be freaked out when he leaves. (Something about tunnels under Walmart in Texas?) The apocalypse, disappointingly, did not happen while he was in office (well, I guess there's still a year to go! They're liked End Times fanatics - oh, wait, some of them ARE End Times fanatics.)
Maybe they need to realize Obama does not take them seriously enough to impose martial law on them.
"They are bitter people who cling to their guns and are absolutely certain that Obama is going to declare martial law thus not allowing any Republican to take office."
LOL. Thanks for sharing, I hadn't heard that one. These people need tranquilizers - they were freaked out like it was Armageddon when Obama took office, the sky was falling, and they'll be freaked out when he leaves. (Something about tunnels under Walmart in Texas?) The apocalypse, disappointingly, did not happen while he was in office (well, I guess there's still a year to go! They're liked End Times fanatics - oh, wait, some of them ARE End Times fanatics.)
Maybe they need to realize Obama does not take them seriously enough to impose martial law on them.
3
Odd that the Germans know not to venerate the Nazi's swastika but that some of our Southern states want to perpetuate a divisive symbol of racial hate, fear and national rebellion. Is it because they just don't get it or do they just want to keep announcing that they just want their slaves back. It's probably some of both.
6
This flag issue is a diversion. Unless we break the grip of NRA on this country we will never be safe.
48
The confederate flag represents slavery, rebellion, treason war, and death.
Exactly what a swastika represents. Would anyone in their right mind fly a swastika?
If politicians on both sides cannot state a real opinion on this, then they are all cowards.
This is a no brainer, show some courage! Please!
Exactly what a swastika represents. Would anyone in their right mind fly a swastika?
If politicians on both sides cannot state a real opinion on this, then they are all cowards.
This is a no brainer, show some courage! Please!
7
The Democrats put it up there. They resisted the civil rights legislation to the bitter end. The Democrats should stop howling over the issue and own up to the fact that they as a party made this mess-------not the current crop of GOP candidates. For too long the Democrats with media help have run from their history in the South. In fact one of Mr. Clinton's earliest political hero's was segregationist Senator William Fulbright. So for the Democrats to claim clean hands is historically incorrect. Perhaps the GOP can now respond to the pain of black folk and place this battle flag in a museum.
You might want to do some reading about desegregation and Nixon's Southern strategy. You might also want to check out the story on the racist donor to three of the Republican candidates campaigns.
1
(Sigh) this gets so tiresome. Look up Nixon's Southern Strategy. Yesterday's Dixiecrats are today's Republicans.
1
Written just like an ignorant fool. You know absolutely nothing about political Southern history of the last 50 years. Please go read up on how the Dixiecrats switched their party allegiance to the GOP after the Civil Rights Act was passed.
1
I have been traveling I 95 from NY to FLA for the last 18 years - I do not stop in So. Carolina for anything - on general principle. Any state that reveres the symbol of oppression so much that it has to fly the flag of the oppressor does not deserve my "tourist" dollars. Boycotting the symbol of hatred by withholding commerce on a massive scale is one way the So. Carolina public can effect change.
6
If the Confederate flag doesn't arrogantly stand for racism, what does it stand for?
It is historic but should not be a prominent fixture in any aspect of America today. To cavalierly display it in on license plates (as is done in Georgia), only fans the flame of hatred and resistance.
It is historic but should not be a prominent fixture in any aspect of America today. To cavalierly display it in on license plates (as is done in Georgia), only fans the flame of hatred and resistance.
6
The confederate battle flag is...
1) A nation wide rallying point for white supremacists and racists.
2) An ever present reminder to South Carolina Blacks that those in power in their state view them as less than equal.
3) An extended middle finger to Washington and the north.
Given the entrenched nature of these attitudes and the cowardice of the majority of Republican office holders it is unrealistic to expect a political solution. An economic boycott would make sense if only there were a business in South Carolina significant enough to be worthy of a boycott!
1) A nation wide rallying point for white supremacists and racists.
2) An ever present reminder to South Carolina Blacks that those in power in their state view them as less than equal.
3) An extended middle finger to Washington and the north.
Given the entrenched nature of these attitudes and the cowardice of the majority of Republican office holders it is unrealistic to expect a political solution. An economic boycott would make sense if only there were a business in South Carolina significant enough to be worthy of a boycott!
6
Boycott South Carolina until they retire the Confederate flag.
8
I learned last night that the Confederate Flag only started flying over the State Capitol in 1961 once the Federal Government started to desegregation. Somehow I thought it was always flying over the Capitol, going back 150 years.
Most politicians are cowards; they stand for everything and nothing. An article in today's paper mentions donations given to some Republicans that has been linked to a white supremacist groups.
Most politicians are cowards; they stand for everything and nothing. An article in today's paper mentions donations given to some Republicans that has been linked to a white supremacist groups.
5
The Confederates flag should have been burned and buried in 1865. The Confederates lost a war they never should have started - get over it and stop flying the loser flag.
6
The Republicans running for president are afraid to offend their base of racists? Well they've been offending everything I believe in forever. Flying the confederate flag shows that they have no qualm about insulting everyone who isn't a racist. There is a fast track way to get the leaders of SC to remove the flag from state property. Stop all federal funding to the state until the flag is removed.
4
Given that Republicans, for the most part, have shown a level of racism against the sitting President that has to have us as the laughing stock of every country in the world, that flag is nothing compared to what's been going on for the last six plus years. I'm certainly not surprised at the attitudes of those candidates. They've been clear on their racism all along and have not done anything to hide it. Voters, take note.
1
It is morally disgusting that the flag of the racist killer -- the Confederate Battle Flag -- remains at the top of its pole while the Flag of the United State of America is at half-staff in mourning.
And it is wretch-inducing for every person of basic moral character to hear the candidates for Republican nomination to the presidency -- the Coiners of Weasel Words -- dance around the topic, trying to keep their racist supporters satisfied while failing to appear to possess for themselves normally formed moral characters.
And it is wretch-inducing for every person of basic moral character to hear the candidates for Republican nomination to the presidency -- the Coiners of Weasel Words -- dance around the topic, trying to keep their racist supporters satisfied while failing to appear to possess for themselves normally formed moral characters.
3
Wanna make sure not to insult those rich racist types!
5
The claim that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of heritage of its supporters does not convince me of flag being flown proudly and high.
What if a person of German descent raise a flag bearing a swastika and claimed that it was his heritage. Would you accept that rationale?
Not I.
What if a person of German descent raise a flag bearing a swastika and claimed that it was his heritage. Would you accept that rationale?
Not I.
9
Lincoln is rolling over in his grave. What's next, flying a swastika in Albany ? These narrow-lived so-called Republican candidates should be thrown out of the GOP. This is - and has always been - a "no brainer"
5
The Times left out the rest of the quote which is too humorous for words, right out of a John Stewart Daily Show patter.
"The next president of the United States will not make that decision. That's up for the people of South Carolina to make, and I think they'll make the right one like they've made them in the past."
Yes, South Carolina has always made the "right" choices. lol
"The next president of the United States will not make that decision. That's up for the people of South Carolina to make, and I think they'll make the right one like they've made them in the past."
Yes, South Carolina has always made the "right" choices. lol
9
I would like to see an article on how Limbaugh, Hannity and Beck contribute to the radicalism of the right wing. If one listens to them it is a brain wahsing mantra of the same hateful messages over and over again. The shear intensity and repetition has to change a persons mind for the worse.
4
As an America veteran, I seethe every time someone defends the right to fly an emblem of my beloved country's ENEMY, an enemy that lost a war to the United States and was still treated better than the slaves that enemy owned.
I am also disgusted that the legislative body of South Carolina has not been impeached or tried by the Department of Homeland Security for treason and terrorist acts - swearing an oath (a state resolution) to keep another country's flag flying, flying that country's hateful emblem in precedence above Old Glory. There have been greater invasions of privacy for Americans with way less instigation; why are these hatemongers treated any differently?
I am also disgusted that the legislative body of South Carolina has not been impeached or tried by the Department of Homeland Security for treason and terrorist acts - swearing an oath (a state resolution) to keep another country's flag flying, flying that country's hateful emblem in precedence above Old Glory. There have been greater invasions of privacy for Americans with way less instigation; why are these hatemongers treated any differently?
68
Thank you for your service and for speaking up.
What a shame that a moral issue as clear-cut as this is reduced to a political calculation. There is only one right side to this: the flag must be taken down!
6
While the confederate flag is part of our national history and should be remembered (never forget history) but nevertheless it is still the flag of traitors. If you consider yourself and American then remember the stars and bars for what it was and is and that is the flag of traitors and proponents of slavery not the flag of some glorious past.
8
The battle flag is not the issue. It is a symbol of southern defiance and a wordless repudiation of the humanity and citizenship of black Americans. Those whose insistence on keeping and proudly displaying it are well aware of it's meaning, both to white American supremacists, as well as to black American descendants of slaves and we cannot allow a symbol to distract us from the underlying disease festering in this country. It's time for us, as a society, to honestly deal with the mental illness called "racism" but whether or not we succeed in reaching an accord, that battle flag of a failed and inhumane society must go.
7
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Companies_based_in_South_Carolina
Money is speech. Here is a list of businesses based in South Carolina (best list I could find). If you don't like South Carolina flying the Confederate Battle Flag, say so by not doing business with these companies.
Money is speech. Here is a list of businesses based in South Carolina (best list I could find). If you don't like South Carolina flying the Confederate Battle Flag, say so by not doing business with these companies.
4
Has the moment finally arrived when the modern Republican Party will pay a real price for its 50-year alliance with racist voters?
If the modern Republican Party was actually the 'Party of Lincoln,' its candidates could easily and quickly answer questions about the Confederate Battle Flag -- that it belongs to history, and to private individuals who want to ruin their reputations by displaying it, but it has no part as an official or tacit symbol of any state government that is part of the American Union.
That is because that flag is the flag of the enemy of the United States Army and United State Navy.
Legitimate state governments don't fly the flags of the enemies of our Armed Forces, from today or yesterday.
If the modern Republican Party was actually the 'Party of Lincoln,' its candidates could easily and quickly answer questions about the Confederate Battle Flag -- that it belongs to history, and to private individuals who want to ruin their reputations by displaying it, but it has no part as an official or tacit symbol of any state government that is part of the American Union.
That is because that flag is the flag of the enemy of the United States Army and United State Navy.
Legitimate state governments don't fly the flags of the enemies of our Armed Forces, from today or yesterday.
12
Neither party corners the market on race-relation morality or non-racist public policy. The talking point is, I'll grant you, a long-standing plank in the Democratic platform over the past 50 years - but words and deeds are different things.
I remind you, the "Dixie-crats," as their self-described label suggested, were Democrats. ...And Robert Byrd, who was the ranking Democrat in the US Senate until his death (just five years ago, during the Obama Admininstration), was a card-carrying member of the KKK.
I remind you, the "Dixie-crats," as their self-described label suggested, were Democrats. ...And Robert Byrd, who was the ranking Democrat in the US Senate until his death (just five years ago, during the Obama Admininstration), was a card-carrying member of the KKK.
They have to placate the racists. what more is there to say?
9
Yes, but that's a little soft, still. To believe you have to placate racists means you ARE a racist. At the very least, the person is saying that the sensibilities of the minority are not as important as those of the majority, and that the history of persecution of the minority doesn't much matter.
1
Rather than "tread carefully" the right term is "weasel".
7
To all those who claim that the confederate flag merely represents southern pride and heritage I say" I believe that when I see black people flying it over their houses.
13
Exactly. Remember, Dylan Roof apparently persuaded himself, from reading slave narratives, that most slaves were "happy."
'What is the correct thing to do' v. 'What is the Right (Wing) thing to do'. It's unfortunate that a political party does not merely frame the internal debate as 'What's best for our country as a whole'? The answer is easy. Take it down. Keep it down.
4
The flag is not the real problem, it is an addendum, and in some sense a diversion from the core issues surrounding the horrific act.
Taking the Confederate flag down will not remove or diminish the prejudice, the long standing racial enmity and divide that afflicts this southern state.
It is also a problem that belongs to South Carolina. The people of South Carolina are the ones who must deal with it, or not.
There is much harder work waiting to be done in order for America to make real progress in dealing with our persistent and dysfunctional racial divisiveness.
Taking the Confederate flag down will not remove or diminish the prejudice, the long standing racial enmity and divide that afflicts this southern state.
It is also a problem that belongs to South Carolina. The people of South Carolina are the ones who must deal with it, or not.
There is much harder work waiting to be done in order for America to make real progress in dealing with our persistent and dysfunctional racial divisiveness.
South Carolina is not the only southern state to fly the Confederate Battle flag. They must come down from every state house in the country! They belong in museums.
1
The Confederate Battle Flag honors the brave Southern soldiers who despite being undermanned and out gunned, defeated the Yankees in battle after battle until Grant finally wore them down by throwing wave after wave of immigrants at the Southern line with no regard for life while Sherman burned and pillaged his way to Atlanta. Most Southerners didn't own slaves and were not fighting for slavery but against the northern invader. Most Union soldiers weren't fighting to emancipate the slaves either.
The Union flag of that time, 35 stars, later 38 is a symbol of genocide as that is the flag the US Cavalry flew in their battles to eradicate and enslave Native Americans of the plain states.
And who were the leaders of this genocidal effort? Mostly union officers. Grant was president, Sherman head of the US army, Sheridan head of the army fighting the Plains Tribes and of course Custer. The commanding officers at Wounded Knee were former Union officers.
The genocidal policy of the US against Native Americans was primarily a northern affair. The southern states only comprised from 1/3 to less than half of the US prior to the Civil War, were not in congress during the war and the last Confederate states were not allowed in congress until 1870.
So be careful when you condemn a flag as representing some hated ideology.
The Union flag of that time, 35 stars, later 38 is a symbol of genocide as that is the flag the US Cavalry flew in their battles to eradicate and enslave Native Americans of the plain states.
And who were the leaders of this genocidal effort? Mostly union officers. Grant was president, Sherman head of the US army, Sheridan head of the army fighting the Plains Tribes and of course Custer. The commanding officers at Wounded Knee were former Union officers.
The genocidal policy of the US against Native Americans was primarily a northern affair. The southern states only comprised from 1/3 to less than half of the US prior to the Civil War, were not in congress during the war and the last Confederate states were not allowed in congress until 1870.
So be careful when you condemn a flag as representing some hated ideology.
1
Even better than one commenter's idea of flying 1000 confederate flags at GOP candidate rallies: fly 500 of them plus 500 nazi flags, to make the protest loud and clear.
5
The battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia is the most recognizable symbol of the southern Confederacy, regardless of one's personal opinions on the subject. Original artifacts (actual "battle flags") and scholarly discussions about the Confederacy's politics are the business of well-respected universities and museums around the country.
The re-emergence of the battle flag as a symbol of massive resistance in the 1950s and 60s is now part of the flag's history, too, and must be appreciated for all that it means. In this sense, my opinion is that it should be removed from the grounds of the South Carolina state house.
I agree with Congressman Clyburn's assessment that other, more historically appropriate, Confederate flags that were not (and have not been) used to push racial separatism or hatred might be better choices for any monuments that acknowledge the history of the state.
What is clear from this past week's catastrophe is that we as a nation need to find new ways to collectively heal our wounds and continue the effort to get on the same page as fellow citizens.
---
...and although the article give Mrs. Clinton credit for weighing in in on this issue (once) in 2007, she has not said a word about or taken a single question about the Confederate flag in the past week. Those fair and tough questions have only been asked of the GOP candidates, thus far. Why don't we level the playing field by putting her on the spot to answer the question, too.
The re-emergence of the battle flag as a symbol of massive resistance in the 1950s and 60s is now part of the flag's history, too, and must be appreciated for all that it means. In this sense, my opinion is that it should be removed from the grounds of the South Carolina state house.
I agree with Congressman Clyburn's assessment that other, more historically appropriate, Confederate flags that were not (and have not been) used to push racial separatism or hatred might be better choices for any monuments that acknowledge the history of the state.
What is clear from this past week's catastrophe is that we as a nation need to find new ways to collectively heal our wounds and continue the effort to get on the same page as fellow citizens.
---
...and although the article give Mrs. Clinton credit for weighing in in on this issue (once) in 2007, she has not said a word about or taken a single question about the Confederate flag in the past week. Those fair and tough questions have only been asked of the GOP candidates, thus far. Why don't we level the playing field by putting her on the spot to answer the question, too.
2
Bernie Sanders has come out unequivocally on this issue. State governments should not be flying a flag that was part of treason against our country and especially one that symbolizes hatred. I am eligible for both the DAR and the UDC. There are many things I love about the South but slavery or its current climate of racism are not among them.
If Republicans were smart then one big financier like the Koch brothers would pull them all together and tell them that they must ALL denounce the slavery flag and call for its removal. That way no one would gain a political advantage individually. Anyone who isn't part of the group doesn't get Koch money and in fact money will go to campaign against them.
But alas, the Koch's will put their money into supporting coal-fired plants and don't really care about the health of our country.
But alas, the Koch's will put their money into supporting coal-fired plants and don't really care about the health of our country.
5
Lest we forget, the Koch brothers father was very supportive and involved in the John Birch Society. The Koch brothers now support other efforts to tear our country apart or destroy it one way or another. Supporting racism is just another tool in their toolbox.
Dear South:
You lost the war, the flag you fly is that of another time and country, please face facts and take it down and start living in the present.
Thank you,
You lost the war, the flag you fly is that of another time and country, please face facts and take it down and start living in the present.
Thank you,
10
Republicans aren't "treading carefully". They are cowards. It's a flag. If this goes towards helping the healing, then remove it. At this rate, Republicans probably wouldn't remove a flaming cross from someone's yard either.
8
One word is missing from this article: terrorism. The act was a terrorist act with the battle flag of country defeated long ago. Take down the flag now!
9
Just imagine if Germans allowed the swastika to fly over the graves of those who died to defend it.
6
I challenge the confederate flag supporters to find any other symbol that more completely represents "violent overthrow of the government" more than this flag.
9
The Confederate flag might have always flown over the state capitol of South Carolina but it wasn't present on bumper stickers, license plates, and peoples' skins until the Dixiecrats came along in 1948 and adopted it as their symbol, which was of racism and segregation. Protesting Civil Rights it was waved throughout the 50s and 60s. Sad to say it is still a strong symbol.
7
The flag is simply a symbol of treason. It was the banner of people who tried to overthrow the constitutional government of the US. It has no other history. It is a symbol of unlawful defiance, and a reminder of the massive loss of life needed to preserve our country. It's racist connotations are secondary but profound.
11
Well, gee. So--what do the flags of every state in the Union represent? The decimation of Native populations and the supremacy of immigrant European populations. As does the Stars and Stripes.
Please let us not be so smug. Staten Island and various neighborhoods in Brooklyn could be transplanted without tears into any Southern state.
People join hate groups because they find no meaningful place for themselves anywhere else. They turn their personal failures into a cause.
Its astonishing to me that the same people who revile Dylann Roof and do not look at the roots of his own individual failures would be the first to find every possible excuse for a black inner-city gang member committing equally reprehensible crimes. Not long ago, a NY Times commenter asked me where my compassion was for the guys who mugged me...
The South is full of young white men whose very existence is a punchline for Northern comics; whose social and educational struggles are ignored or minimized by schools and families until no meaningful remediation is possible; who are desperate for purpose but don't know where to find it. And many of them, like Dylann Roof, grow up with black neighbors and classmates; have friendly personal relationships with individual blacks and whose hatred for the other is a sort of schizophrenic compartmentalization.
Every life matters.
Please let us not be so smug. Staten Island and various neighborhoods in Brooklyn could be transplanted without tears into any Southern state.
People join hate groups because they find no meaningful place for themselves anywhere else. They turn their personal failures into a cause.
Its astonishing to me that the same people who revile Dylann Roof and do not look at the roots of his own individual failures would be the first to find every possible excuse for a black inner-city gang member committing equally reprehensible crimes. Not long ago, a NY Times commenter asked me where my compassion was for the guys who mugged me...
The South is full of young white men whose very existence is a punchline for Northern comics; whose social and educational struggles are ignored or minimized by schools and families until no meaningful remediation is possible; who are desperate for purpose but don't know where to find it. And many of them, like Dylann Roof, grow up with black neighbors and classmates; have friendly personal relationships with individual blacks and whose hatred for the other is a sort of schizophrenic compartmentalization.
Every life matters.
1
Regarding the confederate flag: It was a flag of a group formed specifically to retain slavery. State flags, although many are historically part of decimation of Native populations, are not representations of something specifically formed with the purpose of the decimation. Therein lies a big distinction.
The flag will remain, because the legislature and the presidential candidates will continue to dance around the issue and utter platitudes and "wait for the right time". What they are all waiting for is the furor to die down and it slips into the background, when it can be ignored. After all, the attention span of the American public is so short, that won't take long, so why bother. Certainly our governor will never do anything. She has never shown leadership on anything else: Why does anyone think she will on this?
3
“I’m hearing already that many chambers of commerce around the state are planning to discuss the issue,” he said, predicting “a meaningful discussion after people have had a chance to grieve and heal.”
Taking down that flag would be a good start on the healing. Why wait?
Taking down that flag would be a good start on the healing. Why wait?
4
"Republican candidates for 2016 are treading delicately. They do not want to risk offending the conservative white voters who venerate the most recognizable emblem of the Confederacy and who say it is a symbol of their heritage. "
I can't repeat this any less. The 9 murdered in AME Church in Charleston S. C. deserve justice. The constant hate speech by those like Fox News, the Republican Presidential candidates and the Republican Governors advocating open carry gun laws; should be indicted as accessories to murder. Racism advocated through voter suppression and intimidation are all acts that can and have and has affected this senseless murder Fox News is the worst offender of this. Take Fox Fake News broadcast license away!
I can't repeat this any less. The 9 murdered in AME Church in Charleston S. C. deserve justice. The constant hate speech by those like Fox News, the Republican Presidential candidates and the Republican Governors advocating open carry gun laws; should be indicted as accessories to murder. Racism advocated through voter suppression and intimidation are all acts that can and have and has affected this senseless murder Fox News is the worst offender of this. Take Fox Fake News broadcast license away!
3
I'm a conservative white voter who has no use for the battle flag. My ancestors fought for the Army of the Potomac. They defeated the Confederacy. Some died. Why the U.S. has allowed that flag to see the light of day is beyond me.
But I digress. The statements you make in your comment may be the most ridiculous I have ever read on these pages.
While you are indicting Fox News and the GOP Presidential candidates for unspecified (& unsubstantiated) crimes, you might want to repeal the First Amendment.
But I digress. The statements you make in your comment may be the most ridiculous I have ever read on these pages.
While you are indicting Fox News and the GOP Presidential candidates for unspecified (& unsubstantiated) crimes, you might want to repeal the First Amendment.
1
Huh? So you're saying, point blank, that Fox News is to blame for the murders?
I think your commentary says more about you than it does about them. Ridiculous.
I think your commentary says more about you than it does about them. Ridiculous.
1
Take down that flag.
6
If the flag is removed, it will be for the threat of business interests , not moral ones. Sufficient rational and a proper decision, but not right reason.
2
I think one can decide whether the confederate flag atop the SC State House represents "heritage" or racism based on the history of the flag's exalted placement there.
The confederate flag has not, of course, flown continuously atop the SC State House since 1861 when the state seceded. When the Civil War ended, the flag was removed.
When did it go back up? During the Civil Rights Movement, to protest the notion of equal rights for Blacks. Yes, that flag is part of history, so display it in a museum, right next to whips and chains once used on slaves.
The confederate flag has not, of course, flown continuously atop the SC State House since 1861 when the state seceded. When the Civil War ended, the flag was removed.
When did it go back up? During the Civil Rights Movement, to protest the notion of equal rights for Blacks. Yes, that flag is part of history, so display it in a museum, right next to whips and chains once used on slaves.
66
Take the flag down. But the real issue is education, and the lack of attention by our leaders and the people to demand a better education program in the state of SC.
This is why Bernie Sanders is going to upset the 2016 presidential election. He does not hesitate, and he speaks his mind. However (read below) most of the candidates have to stick their finger in the air before giving an opinion.
"Even after online pictures of the suspect in the massacre, Dylann Roof, holding the Confederate flag and a gun surfaced on Saturday, none of the candidates who appeared on Sunday’s political television programs were willing to say flatly whether it should continue to fly at the South Carolina Capitol."
"Even after online pictures of the suspect in the massacre, Dylann Roof, holding the Confederate flag and a gun surfaced on Saturday, none of the candidates who appeared on Sunday’s political television programs were willing to say flatly whether it should continue to fly at the South Carolina Capitol."
3
Confederate memorials in the form of life size statues of Confederate soldiers often with musket at the ready or at rest adorn many if not most courthouses in the South. What message does that say to Black citizens? The problem here in the South is that White Southerners generally deny that slavery had anything to do with the Civil War. They need to be called on that just as those who deny the Holocost are rightly called bigots.
5
"Gov. Scott Walker of Wisconsin begged off from questions about what to do with the flag in South Carolina or whether it represents racism, saying he would not address any such matters until the..." Koch brothers told him what his position is.
5
We would be appalled if the Nazi flag would fly over Frankfurt in honor of the fallen Germans who fought the war. It is not about the fallen, it's about what they fell for. The Confederate flag is no different. It should have been removed 150 years ago.
4
What is lost here is that the Confederacy didn't fight for slavery; they fought for states' rights. I many ways the Civil War was similar to the Revolutionary War with the North replacing England as the oppressor. I am not opposed to the removal of the flag but I will leave that up to the voters in South Carolina.
Why should they stand on their personal ethics when their party merely spouts rhetoric on the subject? See, that is the difference between an Independent Politician such as Bernie Sanders and a Party Patsy such as the Republican field has presented. When you are an independent you can follow your heart, when you are a Party member you must follow your ears.
As Winston Churchill once said, "Some men change their party for the sake of their principles; others their principles for the sake of their party."
As Winston Churchill once said, "Some men change their party for the sake of their principles; others their principles for the sake of their party."
3
The confederate flag is an obsolete reminder that South Carolina once fought to maintain an economic system that was based on slavery. It has no place in current life in America. The only reason it stays is political: "I won't be elected if I want the confederate flag removed". All politicians have to understand that Americans have changed and we are becoming a blended society that no longer dwells on our differences, but on our common humanity. To all current candidates: be strong and courageous, recognize how your voting public is changing, state your truths clearly. Americans are listening.
2
They are violating the terms of their surrender. And one more thing: why is nobody official pointing out that this attack took place in Vesey's church on the anniversary of Vesey's rebellion? Or do I have the dates wrong? In any case, this is no longer the flag of the CSA, which no longer exists; it is the flag of the Klan, which should not exist.
3
Really don't understand how this society places so much power in a piece of cloth. We have free speech in this country and unfortunately that is only relevant when it's uncomfortable speech. I would venture to say there were probably some southern soldiers who detested slavery and were fighting to save their home the same way some in this country have sympathy for insurgents or even isis. That sympathy is not met with the same disgust.
It ain't "free speech" when its official government speech .... free speech is a civil right protecting individuals from government action.
1
Freedom of speech in this case should not apply in the public square; that represents endorsement by the government. I've got no problem with people that want to fly this flag on their private property. But put it in the public commons and we've got a problem.
Then fly the flag on private property. State property is no place for it to be displayed, let alone glorified.
Politicians who may argue that racism, no matter how vile, is personal liberty issue in order to protect funding streams from racist organizations should have no place in government. This is not leadership; rather, a gross display of cowardice hiding behind the illegitimate banner of states' rights.
3
I'd feel a whole lot better if politicians were able to "find religion" within themselves regarding things like condemning the confederate flag as an obvious racist symbol, or discrimination against gays, without it taking the death of a "dear friend", or outing of their own child. Happy to accept them at the party, just wish they'd gotten their sooner, without being dragged there.
3
"Republicans Tread Carefully....? When have the Republicans tread "carefully" in the past several decades--especially when it comes to offending individuals, entire groups, decency, and common sense?
They know flags are symbolic and engender strong emotional responses. To me, belligerently flying that Confederate flag (with all it stands for) on top of South Carolinas's capitol is as offensive as the photo of smug-face Dylann Roof burning the American flag.
Despite what Republicans say, their strategy seems to be why promote healing and common sense when you can promote divisiveness, insult, ignorance, and indifference. And, sadly, based on turnout at election time, it appears to be a winning strategy.
So don't expect the strategy of Republicans or Confederate-obsessed southerners to change until they are no longer rewarded for it.
They know flags are symbolic and engender strong emotional responses. To me, belligerently flying that Confederate flag (with all it stands for) on top of South Carolinas's capitol is as offensive as the photo of smug-face Dylann Roof burning the American flag.
Despite what Republicans say, their strategy seems to be why promote healing and common sense when you can promote divisiveness, insult, ignorance, and indifference. And, sadly, based on turnout at election time, it appears to be a winning strategy.
So don't expect the strategy of Republicans or Confederate-obsessed southerners to change until they are no longer rewarded for it.
3
Slavery ultimately damaged the slavers as much is it did the slaves. It altered the course of evolution of both groups, selecting attitudes that conduced survival on both ends of the whip.
1
The governor of SC says that she has not heard from a single business that the flag is a problem (not voter--business). So, Denny's, Hitachi and Michellin, she needs to hear from you asap. Especially Denny's which has its own recent history of discrimination.
3
So the bar for removing the flag depends upon CEO types....
Once again corporate mone talks. Or not!
Once again corporate mone talks. Or not!
1
Republicans who defend "states rights" and the Confederate flag are racists. The "southern strategy" is and has always been a racist strategy to exploit the race hatred in the south.
Toleration of intolerance is ignorant. Politicians who side with the intolerance worn proudly as a banner or flown as a flag are no different than Klan members and Neo Nazi, and Nazi organizations who band together to arouse hatred and exploit hatred. All Americans know this is true and those who don't will find out soon. In the meanwhile, it would be interesting to circulate a petition in the Congress and in both parties to identify the rejection of all racist symbols and those who do not. Americans deserve to know those politicians and elected officials who are paid with tax dollars who are racists and race hatred tolerant.
Toleration of intolerance is ignorant. Politicians who side with the intolerance worn proudly as a banner or flown as a flag are no different than Klan members and Neo Nazi, and Nazi organizations who band together to arouse hatred and exploit hatred. All Americans know this is true and those who don't will find out soon. In the meanwhile, it would be interesting to circulate a petition in the Congress and in both parties to identify the rejection of all racist symbols and those who do not. Americans deserve to know those politicians and elected officials who are paid with tax dollars who are racists and race hatred tolerant.
4
It must be tough being a Republican today, constantly having to defend the indefensible—or just sidestep it. Whether to fly a racist flag, whether to acknowledge human-driven global warming, whether to admit that unrestricted access to guns equals more gun deaths, whether to defend tax cuts for the rich....the list goes on and on.
8
Of course, they're threading carefully. They don't want to offend their racist base. They already know that nonwhites have figured them out, so they're trying to cling to their most loyal constituents.
The GOP isn't 94 percent white by accident.
They made a pact with the devil by nominating Barry Goldwater for president just three months after he voted against the Civil Rights Act in 1964. He lost the election in a landslide but became the first Republican to win the Deep South since the Civil War. Racist southern whites have voted for the party of "the hated yankee" Lincoln ever since. You don't see liberals flying the confederate flag of racism and treason around... It's the conservative Bubbas doing it.
Black people have noticed it too: The GOP share of the black vote went from 34 percent for Nixon in 1960 to just 4 percent for Goldwater in 1964. That's when they lost the black vote for good.
The GOP isn't 94 percent white by accident.
They made a pact with the devil by nominating Barry Goldwater for president just three months after he voted against the Civil Rights Act in 1964. He lost the election in a landslide but became the first Republican to win the Deep South since the Civil War. Racist southern whites have voted for the party of "the hated yankee" Lincoln ever since. You don't see liberals flying the confederate flag of racism and treason around... It's the conservative Bubbas doing it.
Black people have noticed it too: The GOP share of the black vote went from 34 percent for Nixon in 1960 to just 4 percent for Goldwater in 1964. That's when they lost the black vote for good.
7
Bubbas are Bubbas, not conservatives. but then, there are no conservatives anymore, so, why not let the bubbas be conservatives
I am not a Southerner. I have no relationship to the Confederate flag,but I greatly appreciate the power of symbols.
What reasonable person cannot understand the horrible symbolism of that flag?
It has long been the most potent symbol of white supremacy.
What civilized 21st century American can argue for it's active public use?
What reasonable person cannot understand the horrible symbolism of that flag?
It has long been the most potent symbol of white supremacy.
What civilized 21st century American can argue for it's active public use?
5
Sometimes, I wish that republicans would just flat out state: I want to go back to a white america that made me less afraid... and get it over with. The skirting around the issue, the code language... it is almost too painful to witness.
3
Does their base consist of that many racists? This should put to rest any question about whether the Republicans are motivated by hatred (or an equally vile level of unconcern) for black people.
4
The Confederate battle flag in question is part of a WAR MEMORIAL honoring Confederate dead. It does not have any significance beyond that. To the oft repeated claim that it is the flag of treason to the United States,be it noted that in 1861 there was no such entity as "the United States" this country being commonly described as "these United States". As this issue could not be peacefully resolved,a terrible trial of strength decided the matter in favor of the former--a strong federal government and weak states rights. But those who fought for "these United States" did so honorably and with courage and their sacrifice should be noted. Breaking all union was a last resort. The North never believed that the South would break away and the South thought there would be a period of negotiation before a settlement. These mutual delusions plunged the country into war.
In war, the victors get to write the history---Faced with the appalling casualty numbers, Yankee historians gradually but forcefully convinced the world that the war had been a moral crusade against slavery thus justifying the carnage.
We are not parading this flag through the streets---it never leaves the shadow of the fallen. RIP
In war, the victors get to write the history---Faced with the appalling casualty numbers, Yankee historians gradually but forcefully convinced the world that the war had been a moral crusade against slavery thus justifying the carnage.
We are not parading this flag through the streets---it never leaves the shadow of the fallen. RIP
3
The saddest aspect of this tragic shooting is how it propels race and guns into our political future in such a major way. America is falling apart around us: Americans don't need nor should they support such barbaric issues.
1
While there are many aspects of Southern heritage and culture that people are entitled to remember, the Confederate Flag has come to symbolize the fight to preserve slavery. To argue differently is nearly (not quite in my opinion) the same as arguing that the swastika is an ancient Indian symbol and its display does not represent the Nazi era. We have all sorts of Federal laws designed to avoid the promotion of hate. If necessary, adopt one about not allowing the display of a symbol of hatred and oppression on public facilities. Time to find another symbol of Southern heritage and move on.
35
better symbol for southern heritage: Deep fried Peanut Butter Sandwich on a field of Elvises.
2
After civil rights legislation was passed in the early 1960s, LBJ foresaw that the Democrats will have lost the southern vote for 50 years. Johnson's prediction seems to be holding. 2015 marks the 50 year anniversary of the passing of the Voting Rights Act, and the descendants of slave owners and southern racists continue to migrate to the Republican party.
35
Removing the Confederate battle flag from the S.C. statehouse probably would not have prevented this tragedy. Stronger gun control laws very well might have done so.
46
It still needs to come down.
1
Let's do both.
1
As a strong advocate for gun control, I have to disagree. Mr. Roof had no history of mental illness and no history of violence. He legally obtained his weapon. Short of banning handguns, which is never going to happen in the US, nothing could have kept him from obtaining a firearm.
1
Flags mean different things at different times. I feel like that when I was growing up, the confederate flag represented party goers - hard drinking, reveling in their country western music, driving pick up trucks and riding motorcycles. It was the rebel flag, meaning: the person who stuck that decal on his truck was not going to wear a suit or have a 9 to 5 job. But, as I grew older, the flag seemed to turn nastier in its meaning, and the people I see around who now have it on their trucks and homes are just nasty, not fun loving anymore.
32
Mary , they always were, at bottom, racist. sorry but Good O'L boys were not marching for civil rights. The people who support that symbol know exactly whet it stands for, and so do they
2
It is long past time that this regressive symbol of hate and treason is removed, once and for all, from any and all public buildings. It would be nice to retire it altogether to the museums where it belongs.
1
"Republicans Tread Carefully in Criticism of Confederate Flag"
Cowards! Every single one of them. Do people with character and courage not run for office anymore?
Cowards! Every single one of them. Do people with character and courage not run for office anymore?
5
There is no point in removing the flag because nothing will appease the Left.
Next, they will want to demolish Stone Mountain in Georgia.
Next, they will want to demolish Stone Mountain in Georgia.
2
Careful, Eric, you're projecting again. Which "the Left" would you demolish?
Nice straw man - try to stay on topic.
Frankly I don't see this flag issue as a Republican or Democratic issue, it's an American issue. Slavery and its justification, racism, is at the very foundation of American capitalism. In the twenty first century there should be no debate in a seventh century understanding of the world. "The moral arc is wide but it always bends towards justice".
2
When openly racist people cannot find mainstream politicians to pander to their delicate sensibilities, the nation will be better off.
5
No surprise that these gutless candidates, who seem to be more interested in winning than in condemning a divisive and undemocratic symbol, are waiting to see which way the win-d blows South Carolina's Confederate flag. How can they possibly claim to have the integrity or values or moral compass to lead this nation?
2
Coincidentally, a novel (2013) by a former South Carolinian is specifically on the subject of the Confederate flag and its controversy in the late 1990s. Dixie Autumn by Jerry Shinn treats the discussion sensitively from both sides but comes down hard on the side of removing the flag. The parallels to today's discussion are amazing. I happened to be reading this when the recent killings took place. It's painfully obvious that SC needs something more current than the Civil War to celebrate!
4
"They do not want to risk offending the conservative white voters who venerate the most recognizable emblem of the Confederacy and who say it is a symbol of their heritage. "
And once again, those who run for the highest office in the land cannot stand up for what is right for fear of offending potential voters. The lack of character and conviction should be astounding; sadly, it is has become the norm in politics.
The Party of Lincoln? What a dishonor to his legacy.
And once again, those who run for the highest office in the land cannot stand up for what is right for fear of offending potential voters. The lack of character and conviction should be astounding; sadly, it is has become the norm in politics.
The Party of Lincoln? What a dishonor to his legacy.
4
This isn't just about the flag. The Republicans seems willing to pander to people who hold a variety of awful, uninformed, nasty positions.
They pander to the people who wanted that 21 year old unstable bigot to be able to get a gun for his birthday...because guns.
They pander to the people that want to deny climate change because they get a lot of money from oil and gas...even though carbon emissions are harming the entire country in the process.
They pander to the bigots who are proud of their family history of enslaving others.
They pander to what people feel ought to be true, rather than what is true. It's not surprising that works as a political strategy, but it is depressing to watch the shamelessness of it.
They pander to the people who wanted that 21 year old unstable bigot to be able to get a gun for his birthday...because guns.
They pander to the people that want to deny climate change because they get a lot of money from oil and gas...even though carbon emissions are harming the entire country in the process.
They pander to the bigots who are proud of their family history of enslaving others.
They pander to what people feel ought to be true, rather than what is true. It's not surprising that works as a political strategy, but it is depressing to watch the shamelessness of it.
6
I think displaying and/or not forcefully rejecting the Confederate flag tells us something about people and even more about politicians. At best, they are uncaring about the effect it has on many of us - like displaying the Nazi flag in Israel. At worst, they are White supremacists - 150 years after slavery was abolished by a horrendous civil war. Politicians who do not flatly reject flying of that flag are supporting that continuum of shame. And it says something about politicians, like Cruz, Santorum, Rand, Bachmann, King, Akin, Flake, etc. to whom white supremacists make campaign contributions.
We don't need to see them return contributions from racists or gingerly suggest the racists might think about the Confederate flag to know what they stand for.
We don't need to see them return contributions from racists or gingerly suggest the racists might think about the Confederate flag to know what they stand for.
5
The Nazi battle flag is a part of Germany's heritage as well. They, unlike others, do not to flaunt it on a flag pole in front of their Reichstag.
8
Not only do they not flaunt it, display of the swastika in Germany is illegal everywhere.
GOP Nominees - Either lead and be part of the solution or stay quiet, complicit, non-committal and remain integral to the race problem.
4
Beyond the flag, today there are 10 U.S. military bases named after Confederate officers including Lee, Hood, Benning, Gordon, etc. Why is that OK?
2
Those officers surrendered and stopped being racists and they did not continue treasonous acts. Furthermore, their military strategies did not include wholesale slaughter and destruction as did Grant's and others.
Cruz and company have demonstrated comardice.
For such ardent "patriots", that they have any tolerance for anti-union, anti-federal, anti-star and stripes confederates is digusting.
For such ardent "patriots", that they have any tolerance for anti-union, anti-federal, anti-star and stripes confederates is digusting.
3
Perhaps the most telling fact about this symbol of the slavocracy is that the powers that be in So. Carolina kept that flag flying high while the state and US flags were at half mast. After all, the folks who are inspired by that flag have no reason to mourn.
7
The flag issue is but one of many GOP pandering efforts all of which add
up to helping incite weak biased minds.
From voter rights tied to racism, to preposterous outbursts from the floor by
GOP legislators, to daily gnawing at the first black president's respect, to
radio and TV executives getting filthy rich on biased reporting, to middle
class Americans and religious folk buying into it all; it adds up to
bearing responsibility for divisiveness; and even tragic, senseless acts.
up to helping incite weak biased minds.
From voter rights tied to racism, to preposterous outbursts from the floor by
GOP legislators, to daily gnawing at the first black president's respect, to
radio and TV executives getting filthy rich on biased reporting, to middle
class Americans and religious folk buying into it all; it adds up to
bearing responsibility for divisiveness; and even tragic, senseless acts.
3
If South Carolina wants to Keep the memory of the old south alive , let them do it without any support from the federal government.
4
Should a state in the USA have the "right" to fly a flag that was meant to say, "We oppose civil rights for black people," when it was raised in 1962? Should a state have the "right" to display a flag on its capitol grounds that represents armed insurrection against the legally established federal government?
Governor Haley reportedly said that no CEO ever raised the issue of the flag inn discussions about investments in South Carolina. I think it's time that all of us said, "No more." No more racist dog whistles. No more veiled insults to people who have different skin colors. If economic pressure is what it takes, let's organize to tell South Carolina that their "heritage" is offensive and we will avoid doing business there until they reform.
Let's challenge the assertion that the federal government threatens our liberty. For millions of Americans the federal government has been an advocate for equality under the law, for education that is not separate, but equal, for programs that help address injustice and oppression. If states rights means that South Carolina should be free to fly a flag that insults all of us in the Union and many of its own citizens, it's time to rethink the concept.
Governor Haley reportedly said that no CEO ever raised the issue of the flag inn discussions about investments in South Carolina. I think it's time that all of us said, "No more." No more racist dog whistles. No more veiled insults to people who have different skin colors. If economic pressure is what it takes, let's organize to tell South Carolina that their "heritage" is offensive and we will avoid doing business there until they reform.
Let's challenge the assertion that the federal government threatens our liberty. For millions of Americans the federal government has been an advocate for equality under the law, for education that is not separate, but equal, for programs that help address injustice and oppression. If states rights means that South Carolina should be free to fly a flag that insults all of us in the Union and many of its own citizens, it's time to rethink the concept.
3
Like it or not, the Confederate Flag is part of our history. Just because one racist crazy person decides to take a picture of himself with the Confederate Flag and then goes out and murders 9 Black people in a church doesn't mean we should let the Confederate Flag should suffer the same fate as some of words have suffered and be banned from our lives. Things are getting way out of hand with political correctness. How many more symbols and words or references offend black people that eventually must be eliminated from our history and culture? I think it is time we have a list prepared so we have some idea of what to expect and those of us who are not Black, and that would be the vast majority of Americans, have some idea of what not to say for fear of offending Black people.
1
Black people aren't the only ones offended by the Confederate flag. White people can be, and often are, offended by treason, insurrection, sanitized and self-serving versions of "history," distorted thinking, absurd levels of denial, and rank aggression.
1
Seems we need to stop focusing on the "Black" problem and start on the "White" problem.
90
David Anderson
And what is the "white problem?"
And what is the "white problem?"
The old Southern excuse for flying the Confederate Battle Flag over state government buildings as a symbol of historical tradition needs to be dealt with head on.
The Confederate Battle Flag represents the violent division and separatism over politics, the destruction of the United States, the starting of a war that cost the United States over a 1/2 million American lives and the continued enslavement of black people. That is not a "historical tradition" that belongs flying above state capital buildings and this Confederate Battle Flag is an anti-American symbol that should not ever be used in official manners.
Nobody will stop Americans from flying the Confederate Flag from their personal flag poles or on the backs of their trucks because the US stands for freedom of speech and expression even if we do not like it, but it has no place being used to represent a state governments in 2015. It is plainly inappropriate on a racial level as well as a historical level, given what it stood for and what we, as Americans in the United States, are today in 2015.
The Confederate Battle Flag represents the violent division and separatism over politics, the destruction of the United States, the starting of a war that cost the United States over a 1/2 million American lives and the continued enslavement of black people. That is not a "historical tradition" that belongs flying above state capital buildings and this Confederate Battle Flag is an anti-American symbol that should not ever be used in official manners.
Nobody will stop Americans from flying the Confederate Flag from their personal flag poles or on the backs of their trucks because the US stands for freedom of speech and expression even if we do not like it, but it has no place being used to represent a state governments in 2015. It is plainly inappropriate on a racial level as well as a historical level, given what it stood for and what we, as Americans in the United States, are today in 2015.
92
Right. It is in fact an anti-American symbol.
1
Racism is like bad breath: the afflicted seldom realize they have it but those around them are quite aware of the affliction.
That is why it is up to all of us, as the community, to make the call, and the community says that the confederate flag represents oppression of African Americans.
That is why it is up to all of us, as the community, to make the call, and the community says that the confederate flag represents oppression of African Americans.
10
Gov, Nimrata Randawa Haley does not feel it is safe for her to use her real name in her immigrant parent's adopted state of South Carolina. The banner of the slavers would-be slave empire still sends out a message.
10
Alexander Stephens, The Vice President of the former Confederate States of America said the cornerstone of the Confederacy is White Supremecy and the upholding of Black slavery and that their government was founded upon these beliefs. No ambivalence in those statements at all and from the horse's mouth. Supporters of the flag are either ignorant, feigning ignorance, or agree with what it stands for.
108
The Confederate flag is history. It was a symbol used by a group of rebels and slavery approvaing militants. It represents a way of thinking that is no longer acceptable. It attracts a fringe of crazies, very much like the ISIS symbols, and it encourages violence and terror. Each Southern state has a right to its own individ ual flag but flying the Confederate flag is analogous to other hate grouops flying the Nazi flag.
10
Simple arguments rarely change made-up minds, but they may help to sharpen correct views already held. Flying a flag is a society's statement of its values; it cannot be a mere historical reminder of a romantic past. Would the flying of the Nazi flag be seen as a quaint remnant of a bygone past or as an advertisement of a surviving neo-Nazi world view? And continuing to fly the Confederate flag is a statement that enslaving blacks and killing those who seek to be free remains a belief to be lived by.
11
This symbol of treason committed so it's benefactors could enslave, torture, rape and kill fellow black Americans should only be put in a holocaust museum depicting such atrocities. They were the ISIS of their time - only on a greater scale. Ask any supporter of the Confederate Flag if they feel the South was victimized by "The War of Northern Agression" to discover their true allegiance. Shame on any current Presidential aspirant who equivercates, spins, pivots or otherwise avoids demanding this symbol of evil be taken down on public property
18
Confederate General Robert E. Lee surrendered at Appomattox on April 9, 1865. The Confederate flag does not belong padlocked on flag poles outside of government buildings, but on display as a museum artifact.
13
I don't think we would have ever come even this far in the discussion anyone's human rights, gays, minorities, or women's, had Obama not been elected President. Our awareness of his presence and the change he has brought to an otherwise bland and stagnant Democracy has left us to consider the possibilities, and explore more diverse forms of leadership.
Does Rand Paul believe a private corporation can sell slaves as long as the it's private ownership and not government services? He said in the past on numerous occasions that the government should not be permitted to regulate private business whatsoever? So if the West India Trading Company decided to reform tomorrow he'd be fine with them selling slaves to profit their shareholders?
2
In the 1960s, even though Republican elected officials did at last their share to pass civil rights legislation, which was indeed opposed by a substantial number of Democratic elected officials, Republicans as a party decided to make a broad and concerted appeal to white racist voters who abandoned the Democrats.
Now, a half century later, the Republicans are largely dependent on white racist voters, and least to maintain majorities sufficient to keep them in many if not most offices they occupy.
But I would ask Republicans this: Where will white racist voters go if Republicans make a principled stand against white racist policies? It is doubtful that white racists will flock to the Democrats. It's possible that white racists might attempt to form their own party. They have a history of seceding, after all. Most likely they will choose not to vote at all, at least immediately.
And yet, Republicans would likely lose elections. But Republicans could then free themselves to run on sound, truly conservative policies, instead of racist policies pretending to be conservative. Republicans could still run on a platform of lower taxes, less government, strong defense. But such a platform does not have to target minorities. That platform could be built to attract a rational constituency.
Racism will still, tragically, have a constituency. Responsible, truly patriotic political parties owe such a constituency as little space as possible. Racism needs to be disempowered.
Now, a half century later, the Republicans are largely dependent on white racist voters, and least to maintain majorities sufficient to keep them in many if not most offices they occupy.
But I would ask Republicans this: Where will white racist voters go if Republicans make a principled stand against white racist policies? It is doubtful that white racists will flock to the Democrats. It's possible that white racists might attempt to form their own party. They have a history of seceding, after all. Most likely they will choose not to vote at all, at least immediately.
And yet, Republicans would likely lose elections. But Republicans could then free themselves to run on sound, truly conservative policies, instead of racist policies pretending to be conservative. Republicans could still run on a platform of lower taxes, less government, strong defense. But such a platform does not have to target minorities. That platform could be built to attract a rational constituency.
Racism will still, tragically, have a constituency. Responsible, truly patriotic political parties owe such a constituency as little space as possible. Racism needs to be disempowered.
9
Robert,
As a northern conservative I would like to see the flag removed and put in a museum. I also wish the republican party was not reliant on some white racists for their vote, and of course your plan might work in the long run. Unfortunately, I cannot imagine any sizable group of politicians sacrifinc their own hinds so that their party may have more electoral success later.
As a northern conservative I would like to see the flag removed and put in a museum. I also wish the republican party was not reliant on some white racists for their vote, and of course your plan might work in the long run. Unfortunately, I cannot imagine any sizable group of politicians sacrifinc their own hinds so that their party may have more electoral success later.
1
The GOP politicians seem to be all about not letting even 1 vote escape them - that's all they are about ... oh & $$$$. I wonder how they sleep at night because they seem to not have any humanity. My opinion of the Confederate Flag is that it belongs the museums & history books - not flown today, esp anywhere need state & federal buildings. It has become a symbol of rebellion & now hate. Not to lump all of the GOP together, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that Ted Cruz returned $8,500 to Texas donor, Earl Holt III, who lists himself as president of the Council of Conservative Citizens, a known a white supremacist extremist organization, & where the Dylann Roof visited. Rand Paul is also getting rid of the $$$ contributions made by Earl Holt.
4
This is not a state issue. The flag flew over an area of this country that was governed by people who committed treason against the United States of America. They decided to steal our land and water so that they could continue to rake in huge amounts of money on the backs of unpaid labor who were viciously held in slavery. Their treason resulted in the deaths of over 700,000 people. Today, they proudly fly this abomination as a daily warning to our black citizens.
And they want to continue to flaunt this atrocity on the entire country?
And they want to continue to flaunt this atrocity on the entire country?
18
Racial tyranny symbols and laws, as well as religious tyranny symbols and laws will be promoted and protected by pandering politicians. All blood is red, but blood spilled almost two hundred and two thousand years ago counts more.
1
All those not calling for it to be removed are cowards.
A democratic governor of South Carolina took the flag down but as soon as a republican got in office he put it right back up.
That is all you need to know about republicans and who they really are.
A democratic governor of South Carolina took the flag down but as soon as a republican got in office he put it right back up.
That is all you need to know about republicans and who they really are.
17
The Civil War is over, and has been for slightly more than 150 years. It is certainly time to put aside the violence, hatred, and intolerance that has been manifest since in the continuing "last gasp" of those who believe the Confederate States of America should still exist. Let go! Move on! And live in peace.
5
Comment all you want, but politicians only do what's politically expedient and will gain them some advantage. Doing the morally correct thing is never the motive in politics. If the members of the SC legislature feels it's in their best interests and they will profit from it somehow, the flag will come down. If, on the other hand, the outrage dies down after a while (as it always does after a mass killing) and we all move on to other things and they see no advantage, the flag will stay.
8
The fact that there needs to be a vote in the SC legislature to lower or take down the Confederate flag is preposterous. In fact, to me, it seems that the Confederate flag has a higher rank above the US flag. I think it's almost treasonous to put a flag with such horrible and dark history above our flag.
11
A couple of thoughts on this issue. First, the GOP has a needle to thread on this issue. To touch this means to "offend" it's most reliable portion of its base. On the other hand, to ignore it sends a message that while unspoken, will be clearly heard.
The second is the symbol of a pad locked Stars and Bars flying in front of the South Carolina Capital. The representation of the locked in place/frozen in time hold which the Lost Cause maintains on the Palmeto State.
The second is the symbol of a pad locked Stars and Bars flying in front of the South Carolina Capital. The representation of the locked in place/frozen in time hold which the Lost Cause maintains on the Palmeto State.
5
So if a majority sees it as a symbol of championing American slavery, a shared American history North and South, which was a loosing economic system that always ends in rebellion and blood, even for the French, then that's what it is? Pshaw.
To many, it's about facing down uber alles stomping, i.e., the Federal government and its ominous, continuous, forever, it seems, will to manage every moment of the citizen's life. To others, it's a cool flag. To others, obviously, it's Mein Kampf marching about.
So, let them vote for public display, but citizens still, for a time it seems, have the constitutional right to display it at will, whatever it might mean.
But you have to ask yourself the question: if the South had won--would they have been so free with free speech?
To many, it's about facing down uber alles stomping, i.e., the Federal government and its ominous, continuous, forever, it seems, will to manage every moment of the citizen's life. To others, it's a cool flag. To others, obviously, it's Mein Kampf marching about.
So, let them vote for public display, but citizens still, for a time it seems, have the constitutional right to display it at will, whatever it might mean.
But you have to ask yourself the question: if the South had won--would they have been so free with free speech?
2
It they had won, their free speech would be gone and so would ours in the North considering how many Southern men and women gave their all to defend the United States in WWI and WWII. Without the sacrifices of those men and women our nation would not be here today. But if they won, one thing would be true, the rebels would have still had their slaves, at least until those in bondage rose in their own rebellion and slay their masters.
There is nothing "complex" about the issue of the Confederate flag, nothing any true American should tread lightly round. It represents not only the losing side of the Civil War, but the wrong side of the most basic moral issue: Does one race of humans have the right to own/abuse/subjugate another race of humans? The answer is no. Anyone who flies the Confederate flag is saying the answer is yes.
I understand that many people living in the South are descendants of those who fought on the Confederate side, and they have to come to terms with the fact that they were on the wrong side of history. Period. They were wrong; their cause was wrong. Own it and move on. There are many Germans whose ancestors fought for the Nazis; that does not make it okay for them to proudly display a Swastika.
That we have not yet recovered and moved on from a war that ended 150 years ago speaks volumes about our country, and nothing it says is good.
I understand that many people living in the South are descendants of those who fought on the Confederate side, and they have to come to terms with the fact that they were on the wrong side of history. Period. They were wrong; their cause was wrong. Own it and move on. There are many Germans whose ancestors fought for the Nazis; that does not make it okay for them to proudly display a Swastika.
That we have not yet recovered and moved on from a war that ended 150 years ago speaks volumes about our country, and nothing it says is good.
32
I travel through South Carolina several times a year between Georgia and Pennsylvania. I always stay at a hotel in SC and eat dinner and breakfast there. I just got a coupon from the hotel and let them know, whatever obfuscations the Republican presidential candidates present, that I will no longer do anything except drive through the state on I-95. No more of my money to support this state. I am also not at all proud that I am eligible for membership in the United Daughters of the Confederacy. It's more like an insult.
21
Your letter suggests that you are planning on hurting the people who run a business without having any idea of what their position on this issue is? If that's the case, in my eyes that would make you a bully.
The flag went up after segregation was ended. Defiance by the ruling race.
5
Just cancelled a long-awaited vacation to the South Carolina coast. Send an economic message about your disgust with the confederate flag. To that, the state residents will understand and respond.
On a related subject.....BMW management, what were you thinking about when you decided to locate your United States assembly plant in Greer, South Carolina? Did you realize the type of hidden message that you are sending to your customers? Perhaps it's time to rethink your decision.
On a related subject.....BMW management, what were you thinking about when you decided to locate your United States assembly plant in Greer, South Carolina? Did you realize the type of hidden message that you are sending to your customers? Perhaps it's time to rethink your decision.
13
You're suggesting that we deliberately hurt individual business owners in South Carolina by boycotting their business, even if we know nothing about their owners personally? Even if they are innocent of any racism? Even if they're Black?
In my opinion that would make us bullies.
In my opinion that would make us bullies.
My "vote" is for presidential candidates collectively to come forth with one unified statement for Confederate Flag removal. It's time. The impact from this unified statement will be quite powerful.
This is to openly and clearly speak out against the Confederate Flag and for it's removal from all State public grounds and properties.
A problem symbol of divisive hate has no place in our society or our government.
This is to openly and clearly speak out against the Confederate Flag and for it's removal from all State public grounds and properties.
A problem symbol of divisive hate has no place in our society or our government.
6
White southern conservatives would like us to believe that the Confederate flag is a completely benign representation of their southern heritage, not a symbol of their latent racism or a reminder of the South's less honorable past ... including long periods of slavery, secession, and segregation.
The Third Reich believed that the Nazi flag represented honorable character traits such as strength, loyalty, struggle, and creativity ... but even the post-war German government had enough sense not to continue to fly the Nazi swastika on government buildings, as the rest of the world knew well that it actually symbolized maniacal world domination, oppression, and genocide.
The Third Reich believed that the Nazi flag represented honorable character traits such as strength, loyalty, struggle, and creativity ... but even the post-war German government had enough sense not to continue to fly the Nazi swastika on government buildings, as the rest of the world knew well that it actually symbolized maniacal world domination, oppression, and genocide.
6
Hi,
Symbols of hate have no place in our government.
The Confederate flag is not a symbol of southern pride but rather a symbol of rebellion and racism. On the heels of the brutal killing of nine Black people in a South Carolina church by a racist terrorist, it's time to put that symbol of rebellion and racism behind us and move toward healing and a better United States of America!
That's why I signed a petition to The South Carolina State House, The South Carolina State Senate, and Governor Nikki Haley, which says:
"Symbols of hate and division have no place in our government. It's time to stand up for what's right and take down the Confederate flag!"
Will you sign this petition? Click here:
http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/remove-the-confederate-3?source=s.em.mt...
Symbols of hate have no place in our government.
The Confederate flag is not a symbol of southern pride but rather a symbol of rebellion and racism. On the heels of the brutal killing of nine Black people in a South Carolina church by a racist terrorist, it's time to put that symbol of rebellion and racism behind us and move toward healing and a better United States of America!
That's why I signed a petition to The South Carolina State House, The South Carolina State Senate, and Governor Nikki Haley, which says:
"Symbols of hate and division have no place in our government. It's time to stand up for what's right and take down the Confederate flag!"
Will you sign this petition? Click here:
http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/remove-the-confederate-3?source=s.em.mt...
2
Now, we find out, they have to avoid offending white supremacist donors too!
Either they failed to vet these people or thought they fluke get away with it. Neither hypothesis bodes well for their judgment.
How sad that a British paper has to bring this to light. Does our national media have a spine anymore? The best excuse I can make is that they'd rather avoid a self-appointed NRA militia from massing around Midtown. Big Viokence really does own this country.
Either they failed to vet these people or thought they fluke get away with it. Neither hypothesis bodes well for their judgment.
How sad that a British paper has to bring this to light. Does our national media have a spine anymore? The best excuse I can make is that they'd rather avoid a self-appointed NRA militia from massing around Midtown. Big Viokence really does own this country.
1
No matter what is said to justify the flying of the Confederate flag at the SC statehouse, it pales to all that it symbolizes. It is a sign that the Confederate South and all that it represented never died, it is the embellishment of the phrase, "the South will rise again", it is at the center of the battle between states rights and federalism, and it represents the rejection of almost every law proposed by Obama as well as being at the heart of the ACA controversy, gun control and reluctance to expose a system rigged against minorities. It favors those that started a war so that they could impose their own morality, twisted as it was, on their people in their own way. If we seriously look at politics today, that mentality still exists today and although it is called by different names, depending on the issue, it is gaining in popularity. Now is the time to call it what it is and bring America back to the people, all the people.
3
Now, we find out, they have to avoid offending white supremacist donors too!
Either they failed to vet these people or thought they fluke get away with it. Neither hypothesis bodes well for their judgment.
How sad that a British paper has to bring this to light. Does our national media have a spine anymore? The best excuse I can make is that they'd rather avoid a self-appointed NRA militia from massing around Midtown. Big Violence really does own this country.
Either they failed to vet these people or thought they fluke get away with it. Neither hypothesis bodes well for their judgment.
How sad that a British paper has to bring this to light. Does our national media have a spine anymore? The best excuse I can make is that they'd rather avoid a self-appointed NRA militia from massing around Midtown. Big Violence really does own this country.
1
Jeb Bush did the correct thing as Governor of Florida and gives a legitimate course of action to S.C. This symbol of hate and treason belongs in a museum. Preferably one no one wants to visit. This debate will make the anti-gun control/NRA crowd look tame.
1
"...Afraid of offending the base." We hear that statement repeatedly. How is it that the lowest common denominator of a political party drives the agenda? Lack of Leadership? Lack of Vision? Lack of Courage to speak out? Lack of Principle? Have American politics become so derisive that the leaders we need will not subject themselves to a gauntlet of hatred, corporate greed and ignorance in order to serve in office? To paraphrase, "We have a problem Houston!"
1
"it is a symbol of their heritage"
Which would what, exactly? Slavery, hookworm, and treason?
Which would what, exactly? Slavery, hookworm, and treason?
4
What did you expect when you elect republicans? They are all supported by the gun lobby; they are responsible to the senseless killing of too many to count.
What is sensible about allowing people to roam the streets, parks, schools, churches 'bearing arms'? What a laugh - the right to 'bear arms' in our society today where violence and gore penetrate every form of entertainment
and our society is inundated with senseless and boring media? We all sit in wait for the next instance of blood being shed while republicans dodge the current bullet on race relations. They would fly the confederate flag in their own states if allowed - all racists - old, rich, white men allowing blood to run in the streets.
5
This country has lived with the tyranny of racism long enough. For the last six years the Republican party has been taking cheap political advantage of it in their loathsome treatment of our President. Instead of giving him some modicum of courtesy and respect, and compromising with him on laws that would have helped the working class like raising the minimum wage, Republicans have blocked him and mocked him at every turn. Republicans have been willing to throw us under the bus for six years because they didn't want to be caught on camera smiling and shaking his hand. It is a pity, because if Republicans had treated this black President with some respect, they could have improved race relations in this country immeasurably. Instead, they set race relations afire and inspired this massacre. The refusal of Republicans running for President to criticize the state sanctioned flying of the Confederate flag is just one more example of their lack of moral courage and basic decency to disavow the racist tyrants among them.
11
How about removing the Confederate flag not because it will play into a re-election bid because it's the right thing to do? That flag is a symbol of ignorance and hatred. The Civil War ended 150 years ago. The South was justly defeated. The trappings of the Confederacy's twisted attempt to defend slavery should be relegated to the dustbin of history where they belong.
3
While the flag undoubtedly needs to be removed, it's merely a symbol of lasting racism in the south. What really needs to be addressed is the racism, and making the flag an issue is detracting from the real issue here.
3
Some of the flag supporters say this is about preserving heritage, but we all should be asking what heritage they're espousing. The economy of the South rested on the backs of brutally enslaved people and that slavery was justified on the grounds of the so-called 'inferiority and deficiency' of the enslaved. When the slave owning states joined the Confederacy, their statements of secession were plain; not only did they want to remain slave owners, they also wanted non-slave owning states to sanction their evil.
The flag is currently used by hate groups which believe in the ideals those secessionist states espoused long ago: the inferiority of non-white, but especially black, people. Prior to the Civil War, this flag didn't exist and though it's part of history, it shouldn't be flying proudly anywhere. It belongs in a museum, where people can reflect and remember our country's original sin.
The flag is currently used by hate groups which believe in the ideals those secessionist states espoused long ago: the inferiority of non-white, but especially black, people. Prior to the Civil War, this flag didn't exist and though it's part of history, it shouldn't be flying proudly anywhere. It belongs in a museum, where people can reflect and remember our country's original sin.
12
For how long are these people going to insist on being on the wrong side of history? Slavery? Desegregation? Voting Rights? Inter-racial marriage? Same-sex marriage? They're like a bunch of bratty children that can't share on the playground. Stop it NOW! GROW UP!
8
"For how long are these people going to insist on being on the wrong side of history?"
We US has been consistently in the wrong side of the history since we became a superpower after WWII, by supporting dictators (chile, Iran) , by destabilizing democratic countries (Iran), by invading countries which did not threatened us (Iraq). I think this is mostly due to our local politicians running the country and having no experience in world affairs.
We US has been consistently in the wrong side of the history since we became a superpower after WWII, by supporting dictators (chile, Iran) , by destabilizing democratic countries (Iran), by invading countries which did not threatened us (Iraq). I think this is mostly due to our local politicians running the country and having no experience in world affairs.
There is no such thing as "the wrong side of history"; unless you're a Marxist who believes in predestination.
There is, however, codified myth that we call "his" "story". Like all stories, it has a point of view, symbolism and philosophical subtexts.
And its mostly about "him".
There is, however, codified myth that we call "his" "story". Like all stories, it has a point of view, symbolism and philosophical subtexts.
And its mostly about "him".
In war, if one country loses to the other, the winner gets to put their flag down to establish their power over the vanquished. Those are still the ground rules of war just as in centuries past. So why is South Carolina allowed to keep this Confederate flag which represents evil, great evil? In case they don't know the South lost and they laid down their arms to join the Union which is the United States of America. So that makes it not a South Carolina matter. The Federal Government has the right to bring down the Confederate flag down over the SC Capitol and allow only our flag,the flag of the U.S.A. If south Carolina secedes let them. But the rest of the country does not have to pander to their wishes. Kudos to Mitt Romney for his principled stand but then he is not running for office. However, it is disgusting to see the Politicians trying weasel their way out just to get a few votes. These guys are as guilty as the South Carolinians by commission and ommission.
8
I am just an American. Stars and stripes for me. But I'd feel something lost if the Confederate Flag were lost,,,, it is part of our history,,, and even a statement of diverse opinion.,, history.
Okay,, but if flags are to be lowered to half staff as a sign of morning, reverence,,, all flags should be lowered to half staff.
The fact that many or all Confederate Flags were not lowered to half staff,,, I find disturbing. I don't care if you are North, South, black, white, pink, purple, or Martian green. Respect for life, liberty,,, and a detesting of stupidity and terrorism,, should be the creed of all,,, All flags should have been lowered. Those that were not, should be taken down for good,,, and all.
Okay,, but if flags are to be lowered to half staff as a sign of morning, reverence,,, all flags should be lowered to half staff.
The fact that many or all Confederate Flags were not lowered to half staff,,, I find disturbing. I don't care if you are North, South, black, white, pink, purple, or Martian green. Respect for life, liberty,,, and a detesting of stupidity and terrorism,, should be the creed of all,,, All flags should have been lowered. Those that were not, should be taken down for good,,, and all.
1
Did somebody say boycott? And then we see how deep their beliefs are?
To paraphrase Mr. Reagan, "tear down this flag,"
To paraphrase Mr. Reagan, "tear down this flag,"
2
A few years ago there was a modest flap about flying the Mexican flag as a symbol of support for immigration reform. The City of Pahrump (a conservative and Tea Party haven) passed an ordinance that made it illegal to fly any but the United States flag. When they realized that the ordinance would prevent them from flying the Confederate battle flag, they quickly repealed the ordinance. While the impetus to fly the battle flag was probably simply anti-government, subrosa racism can't be discounted.
The current battle flag flap is somewhat of a red herring. It should have been taken down in SC long ago. But, if the current controversy results in it's prominent demise, the danger is that people will pat themselves on the back and claim 'problem solved.' Nothing will have been solved to stem the tide of gun violence. Most non-racial mass killlings have no roots in a Confederate flag - Sandy Hook, Aurora, etc, etc. The flag diverts attention from the effort to keep so many from being killed by a widespread gun violence culture. As MLK said, keep your eye on the prize.
The current battle flag flap is somewhat of a red herring. It should have been taken down in SC long ago. But, if the current controversy results in it's prominent demise, the danger is that people will pat themselves on the back and claim 'problem solved.' Nothing will have been solved to stem the tide of gun violence. Most non-racial mass killlings have no roots in a Confederate flag - Sandy Hook, Aurora, etc, etc. The flag diverts attention from the effort to keep so many from being killed by a widespread gun violence culture. As MLK said, keep your eye on the prize.
4
The fact the Republicans have a challenge with their support of the confederate flag Americans need to ask themselves why the Republican Party seems to be the home of racists, anarchists, gun nuts, science deniers, unenlightened evangelicals who think the bible is an accurate book of anything, and the list goes on.
Southerners need to give up their infatuation with the civil war. We are one nation united and it is time to for Southerners to start thinking of themselves as Americans first and Southerners second. To be proud of fighting a war in support of slavery makes no sense to the rest of us.
Southerners need to give up their infatuation with the civil war. We are one nation united and it is time to for Southerners to start thinking of themselves as Americans first and Southerners second. To be proud of fighting a war in support of slavery makes no sense to the rest of us.
7
I am a Native New Yorker living for the past 14 years in Franklin, Tn a suburb of Nashville. I have decried the presence of a confederate flag flying on the grounds of a public park a couple of miles from my home since then. Yes, the grounds of the park are purported to be a battleground where confederate soldiers bled and died, but why are they not flying the American Flag? It is an affront to decency and if it offends anyone it should be removed. I have always maintained it is part of history and is a relic that should be displayed in a museum just like the Nazi flag. Or perhaps we should fly that one too in all it's glory. They stand for similar, if not identical, ideals. Not only this but I recall now that in "progressive" Nashville there are many streets named after confederate generals i.e. Robert E. Lee Dr. and Jefferson Davis blvd....Yet, there is not one republican that will call for the removal of the flag. None have the moral decency or courage to do so. One last thought. This flag flies a mile down the road from one of the oldest African American churches in Franklin that I had the honor of attending yesterday in solidarity and love....and I am not even a church goer.
12
The consensus of fools continue to show their totally cowardly ways.
3
While South Carolina's confederate flag may be the most visible commemorative of the confederacy, such government-sponsored commemoratives populate the south. I was shocked some years ago to find that the United States Patent and Trademark Office was located on Jefferson Davis Highway, a major road in Virginia (still there today). Jefferson Davis was the president of the confederacy. Why does Virginia honor him with a highway? I think these other commemoratives should be re-thought just as S. Carolina's confederate flag is now being debated.
9
When the geniuses that run the State of Indiana decided to enshrine anti-LGBT bigotry in the RFRA, a good number of people and organizations across the rest of the country decided it was fair-play to express their displeasure by boycotting the State of Indiana. What’s needed now, and has been needed since the confederate flag was raised in opposition to the enforcement of basic civil rights in South Carolina in 1962, is a similar national boycott. No state, organization, or politician who doesn’t speak boldly against this “conservative heritage” sham and advocate for the removal of this symbol of hate and treason will ever get a nickel or a vote from me.
6
This issue regarding the Confederate flag is illuminating an even deeper issue regarding our democracy.
The way we determine our leaders is often enormously misaligned with what the country needs to do in order to move forward.
Being electable, within the framework set by our democracy, and creating progress, as is needed for our country to remain a global leader, are at odds.
The New York Times should write about this. To me, the Confederate flag issue makes it clear as day.
The way we determine our leaders is often enormously misaligned with what the country needs to do in order to move forward.
Being electable, within the framework set by our democracy, and creating progress, as is needed for our country to remain a global leader, are at odds.
The New York Times should write about this. To me, the Confederate flag issue makes it clear as day.
2
The confederate flag is what the individual’s experience and perception associated with that symbol is. For some it is a symbol of states’ rights and view the civil war as a heroic effort in preserving it! To others, it is a symbol comparable to the swastika of Nazi Germany. Regardless of the point of view it still remains as a symbol on how divisive our nation still is and how historically myopic our nation has become.
2
Take the flag down! The confederacy lost the war!
10
In case all you history mavens don't remember, the Japanese still fly the flag they used in WW2. Should they ban it?
Or should we ban the US Flag that our US cavalry -- primarily composed of former union soldiers -- flew as they purposefully went about the business of exterminating native Americans (led by former union generals Custer, Sheridan, Sherman and many others and overseen by Grant as president and a primarily northern congress)?
Or should we ban the US Flag that our US cavalry -- primarily composed of former union soldiers -- flew as they purposefully went about the business of exterminating native Americans (led by former union generals Custer, Sheridan, Sherman and many others and overseen by Grant as president and a primarily northern congress)?
2
Haven't seen many (any) flags displaying the Nazi swastika.
How is a Confederate battle flag much different?
A "symbol of our heritage"? Really?
Don't you mean a symbol of how self-righteous racists fought to defend what they saw as their right to own other humans as slaves?
"We were just following social orders, y'all!"
Can't abide politicians who don't have an ounce of courage.
How is a Confederate battle flag much different?
A "symbol of our heritage"? Really?
Don't you mean a symbol of how self-righteous racists fought to defend what they saw as their right to own other humans as slaves?
"We were just following social orders, y'all!"
Can't abide politicians who don't have an ounce of courage.
8
Flags are loaded with symbolism revealing more than mere national identity.
Now that I can see it up close, thanks to the photograph, the flag flown at the memorial actually isn't the Beauregard-designed battleflag used to identify maneuvering Confederate units on a smoke-shrouded battlefield; its original purpose. Beauregard's was the second flag and a bonafide weapon of war. The first, the "Stars and Bars", resembled the Stars and Stripes too closely to be used safely and was retired in haste.
The Memorial Flag is actually a cheat of the "Stainless Banner", the flag of the Confederate States of America itself. That flag incorporated Beauregard's blue Saint Andrews Cross on a blood red field, thirteen white stars inside that cross symbolizing its States although the Confederacy actually numbered eleven. Kentucky and Maryland were represented in the hope Confederate victory could break them free of Federal control. Beauregard's flag symbolizes the Confederate Army itself, why it occupies the place of honor in the flag's upper right hand corner. On the United States flag that honor goes to the States. The white star grid symbolizes the equal union of States in the Federal Union. Southern elites rejected such equality, believing themselves to be superior.
The rest of that flag was lily-white, symbolizing the purity of the white race itself. The cheat reduces its size to hide that symbolism.
That flag proclaims "we never surrendered and never will!" It should come down.
Now that I can see it up close, thanks to the photograph, the flag flown at the memorial actually isn't the Beauregard-designed battleflag used to identify maneuvering Confederate units on a smoke-shrouded battlefield; its original purpose. Beauregard's was the second flag and a bonafide weapon of war. The first, the "Stars and Bars", resembled the Stars and Stripes too closely to be used safely and was retired in haste.
The Memorial Flag is actually a cheat of the "Stainless Banner", the flag of the Confederate States of America itself. That flag incorporated Beauregard's blue Saint Andrews Cross on a blood red field, thirteen white stars inside that cross symbolizing its States although the Confederacy actually numbered eleven. Kentucky and Maryland were represented in the hope Confederate victory could break them free of Federal control. Beauregard's flag symbolizes the Confederate Army itself, why it occupies the place of honor in the flag's upper right hand corner. On the United States flag that honor goes to the States. The white star grid symbolizes the equal union of States in the Federal Union. Southern elites rejected such equality, believing themselves to be superior.
The rest of that flag was lily-white, symbolizing the purity of the white race itself. The cheat reduces its size to hide that symbolism.
That flag proclaims "we never surrendered and never will!" It should come down.
7
When talking about the heritage of South Carolina, one also opens up the question of who's heritage? Not the heritage of the majority of the residents in South Carolina at that time! The figures I see show nearly 60% of the population was African American during the time of the civil war (free blacks and slaves). So if heritage is being discussed, one cannot eliminate the fact that it was the heritage of a minority of the population; so not only are issues of racism raised, it also honors a strongly anti-democratic heritage. I think only the irrational do not recognize that the flag represents many things that are hateful and that we do not agree with these days. This is a completely separate issue from recognizing there are personal histories in the South and in South Carolina that, at the individual and family levels, deserve respect. The flag dishonors them also.
8
And at least one out of every four people in South Carolina is black. How can their fellow citizens fly an emblem of hatred that causes pain? There are probably many immigrants as well who have zero attachment to the flag of treason.
1
Slavery is a state's rights issue. Do these GOP candidates support a state's right to enact slavery?
2
Excuse me, but how in the world can people be surprised at the recent turn of events such as was recently exhibited in Charleston? One only has to look back to when Bill Clinton was President to see a similar amount of vitrol, spite and vailed threats of insurrection eminating out of a Conservative Congress and the Far Right to remember how such talk was only toned down in public and the media after the horrendous tragidy of the Oklahoma City Bombing. Please, look at the recent and repeated warnings from Civil Rights organizations all over the country who track active threats of violence from White Power and Neo Nazi organizations, and try to remember that violence and acts of hate and intolerance do not arise in a vacuum.
5
The rebel flag is not a swastika, in that it is a flag that stands for racism. And the people of SC do not fly that flag as a symbol of racism, nor is that what it symbolizes flying on the state capital.
It is the flag of the south, and it is meant to symbolize the south as its own unique region, with its own history, within the US. This is why that flag has significance to them, and this is why they want it flying from the state capital.
Therefore it is not the place of outsiders to tell the people of SC what statement they are making by flying that flag, its up to the people that are actually flying the flag to say what it symbolizes to them.
If there are those who mistake the statement and significance that the people of SC see in that flag, and as a result of that mistake they are offended, it is up to them to find out what that flag means in SC. And not to tell the people in SC what that flag stands for in SC.
In addition the south does not see the civil was as being over the right to hold slaves, but over the right to be free from the dictates of Washington, and the right to recede from the union. In fact Abraham Lincoln in the Gettysburg Address also spoke only of the country that was established not perishing, he spoke not a word about the issue of slavery, which people today are claiming the war was about.
Therefore it is for SC to say what the flag they are flying stands for, not for others to impose their interpretation on them.
It is the flag of the south, and it is meant to symbolize the south as its own unique region, with its own history, within the US. This is why that flag has significance to them, and this is why they want it flying from the state capital.
Therefore it is not the place of outsiders to tell the people of SC what statement they are making by flying that flag, its up to the people that are actually flying the flag to say what it symbolizes to them.
If there are those who mistake the statement and significance that the people of SC see in that flag, and as a result of that mistake they are offended, it is up to them to find out what that flag means in SC. And not to tell the people in SC what that flag stands for in SC.
In addition the south does not see the civil was as being over the right to hold slaves, but over the right to be free from the dictates of Washington, and the right to recede from the union. In fact Abraham Lincoln in the Gettysburg Address also spoke only of the country that was established not perishing, he spoke not a word about the issue of slavery, which people today are claiming the war was about.
Therefore it is for SC to say what the flag they are flying stands for, not for others to impose their interpretation on them.
1
And they put it up in 1962 why exactly? Hmmm. What was going on in the South in 1962?
It was that mean old federal government again, saying they couldn't have separate water fountains.
The South knows exactly what that flag represents.
It was that mean old federal government again, saying they couldn't have separate water fountains.
The South knows exactly what that flag represents.
1
Excuse me, Mr. Brooklyn.
Don't tell me what "the south" is, sees, or does. I am from the South, a native of NC, and "the south" comprises many views and many opinions. People in the South who venerate the rebel flag venerate the rebellion it symbolized; it is the flag of secession and of dissolution of the union, and the flag of slavery and oppression.
The self-serving claims that the Civil War was not about slavery are belied by the statements made by the legislatures of the states that seceded from the union (look 'em up). The similar claim that the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of veneration of heritage is true only to the extent that that heritage is one of venerating slavery.
I grew up here, and though I lived in Brooklyn and Manhattan myself for many years, I returned here to the South. I know this part of the country; clearly you don't.
Don't tell me what "the south" is, sees, or does. I am from the South, a native of NC, and "the south" comprises many views and many opinions. People in the South who venerate the rebel flag venerate the rebellion it symbolized; it is the flag of secession and of dissolution of the union, and the flag of slavery and oppression.
The self-serving claims that the Civil War was not about slavery are belied by the statements made by the legislatures of the states that seceded from the union (look 'em up). The similar claim that the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of veneration of heritage is true only to the extent that that heritage is one of venerating slavery.
I grew up here, and though I lived in Brooklyn and Manhattan myself for many years, I returned here to the South. I know this part of the country; clearly you don't.
2
No. I have lived in the South most of my life. The Confederate flag means zero to me. It flew for four years as a flag of rebellion against the United States, for a Confederate nation. The vice president of the Confederacy said at its foundation in 1861 about the new government: "its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition".
That is racism from the beginning. This flag was revived in South Carolina in 1962 against Civil Rights, renewing the racist meaning. This is not an interpretation but the truth.
That is racism from the beginning. This flag was revived in South Carolina in 1962 against Civil Rights, renewing the racist meaning. This is not an interpretation but the truth.
1
We live in a time where public off is not entered to serve the public but to enrich oneself. When most of your time in office is needed to raise funds for the the next election, you're going to end up afraid to make any statement that might offend your financial puppet masters.
Public financing of elections, stronger control of who gets a gun , better education and mental health would all contribute greatly to prevent these things.
Public financing of elections, stronger control of who gets a gun , better education and mental health would all contribute greatly to prevent these things.
2
I'm so amazed that a flag, a gun, a religon, a race are the causes for these events. What ever happened to the person and the personal reposnsibility saga? People are ragging about the ISIS flag and the Mexican flag and they are surely doing more to destroy the American Fiber......
The Confederacy surrendered because they were out-numbered and out-gunned, unrepentant and still fervently believing in the way of life for which they fought. The resentment of their defeat lives on.
6
How anyone with any sense of American history can deny that the Confederate battle flag is a symbol that supports institutionalized slavery is beyond comprehension. But, putting aside for a moment the still prevalent racism in this country, there is another good reason for the flag to come down: The war is over and the rebels lost. Since the secessionists lost, the only proper location for their war flag is a museum.
5
I've seen many comparisons of Germany's swastika to the U.S. Confederate flag of the south, and I believe it is somewhat inaccurate. The German nation perpetuated large-scale atrocities against humanity, and they accept the collective shame and responsibility of this. The southern Confederacy did not carry out or seek to sustain such horrific acts as genocide or invade other countries for that purpose. So the two acts may not congruous, but the two flags should probably suffer the same fate at some level.
Most supporters of the Confederate flag may see it as a symbol of regional identity and pride, and not really so much about race. I view the Confederate flag as a symbol of what once defined the south at its worst with its history of racial slavery and segregation, and now as an overt cultural symbol of white supremacy, racism and intolerance (and ignorance).
And let's not forget how our U.S. flag proudly flew over our nation as it massacred scores of Native Americans, and waved over states that embraced slavery and segregation long before the Confederate flag (or states) came into existence. How do we reconcile this? There are no easy answers.
Woodrow Wilson said, "The flag is the embodiment, not of sentiment, but of history." With this in mind, all the flags of the Confederacy have a rightful place in the history of our nation--for better or worse--but have no place in any government establishment, function, or memorial because of the sentiment attached to it.
Most supporters of the Confederate flag may see it as a symbol of regional identity and pride, and not really so much about race. I view the Confederate flag as a symbol of what once defined the south at its worst with its history of racial slavery and segregation, and now as an overt cultural symbol of white supremacy, racism and intolerance (and ignorance).
And let's not forget how our U.S. flag proudly flew over our nation as it massacred scores of Native Americans, and waved over states that embraced slavery and segregation long before the Confederate flag (or states) came into existence. How do we reconcile this? There are no easy answers.
Woodrow Wilson said, "The flag is the embodiment, not of sentiment, but of history." With this in mind, all the flags of the Confederacy have a rightful place in the history of our nation--for better or worse--but have no place in any government establishment, function, or memorial because of the sentiment attached to it.
1
You are wrong. My 3x's great grandfather fought for the north. He lost part of his face. Our family past down his story and he fought for the freedom of the others. The Confederacy does not have a place in this country, it was a terroristic attempt at takeover through intimidation and treason. The flag flying over our country is not the flag of the confederacy it is the fight for equality and we still have people with the same mentality as they did during the Civil War and war against the Native Americans. All races in America fly the true flag the confederacy is not a flag that can be flown by anyone else but members of KKK and those who wish to oppress America. You may leave if you hate the current America.
I think that you have not read much about the history of slavery: it was an atrocity in which millions of people died, were kept in sexual slavery, were abused, and were sold including children torn from their families for generations.
Atrocity is atrocity.
Atrocity is atrocity.
1
One just has to look at the states that are trying to limit voting by African-Americans to see that racism is still prevalent in U.S. society and where it is prevalent. It is Republican legislators passing these laws. There is a lot more the candidates for President should be addressing, and apologizing for, about racism than a battle flag in S.C.
3
Republicans stir up their constituency with their (literal) flag-waving patriotism and then somehow manage to justify flying that thing, full staff, on the property of a government building. Please explain.
1
Boycott until they do the right thing.
9
The Civil War is still a hot button issue 150 years later. It is like the Shiite-Sunni controversy, though that has lasted 1500 years and continues to be considerably bloodier.
I have little issue with Confederate War Memorials, statues, museums and the like. But I feel that when the state sponsors such displays directly at the seat of governance, they are ignoring a substantial portion of the citizens and taxpayers who see that flag as divisive, threatening and insulting.
The cause of the Civil War has been studied and analyzed as much as any other significant part of our history. Yet the fact remains it was primarily the institution of slavery. And the flag represents the side that essentially started the conflict with secession in order to preserve that institution. Read the various states' declarations of secession and the primary reason given was the preservation of an economic system dependent upon forced labor.
" …a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization." Mississippi Declaration of Secession
It doesn't get any clearer than that.
So to have a flag that represented those ideals flying in an official capacity at the center of a representative government for all of South Carolina's residents is, to put it bluntly, outrageous.
I have little issue with Confederate War Memorials, statues, museums and the like. But I feel that when the state sponsors such displays directly at the seat of governance, they are ignoring a substantial portion of the citizens and taxpayers who see that flag as divisive, threatening and insulting.
The cause of the Civil War has been studied and analyzed as much as any other significant part of our history. Yet the fact remains it was primarily the institution of slavery. And the flag represents the side that essentially started the conflict with secession in order to preserve that institution. Read the various states' declarations of secession and the primary reason given was the preservation of an economic system dependent upon forced labor.
" …a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization." Mississippi Declaration of Secession
It doesn't get any clearer than that.
So to have a flag that represented those ideals flying in an official capacity at the center of a representative government for all of South Carolina's residents is, to put it bluntly, outrageous.
10
Since the end of the Civil War we as a nation have hoped that, as a nation, we would grow out of the hatred of racism. We have progressed, glacially. There are those not only in the south but around the country who continue to fight the Civil War. The confederate flag( small case intentional) gives these people hope that the fight is still alive. It is the Maypole around which they swing. The Republican Party has fostered this view. When The Democrat, LBJ, signed the Civil Rights Legislation in the 60's the South had been solidly Democratic since the end of the Civil War. With the signing of that legislation virtually overnight the entire south turned republican and national GOP leaders smile and keep the home fires burning.
5
There really is nothing to debate. The Confederate flag should not be displayed publicly (except for museum purposes and history). The Confederacy started a war, and LOST. It's been 150 years. While the symbol has mutated in meaning of the years, most of that shift has been negative. How anyone can currently defend public display of the Confederate flag (except again for a museum or a Civil War reenactment) is unfathomable.
6
I see no difference between the Confederate flag and the Nazi flag - they are both symbols of defeated regimes, they are both tied to thousands / millions of deaths (including the result of war), they are both tied to the subjugation of other peoples, they are both tied to ideals that are anathema.
We don't allow display of the Nazi flag, but some how the Confederate flag is a symbol of pride.
Pride in what?
We don't allow display of the Nazi flag, but some how the Confederate flag is a symbol of pride.
Pride in what?
9
There is no pride in defeat. Confederate flag supporters should be charged with treason.
1
The confederate flag is a disgrace and has no place in America.
1
Enough! Enough of the facile, deterministic arguments! I am quite certain that not every person who attaches their heritage to the symbol of the Confederate flag is a racist who extols the South's return to slavery... just as not every person wearing a turban is a terrorist (shocking, I know). How many people / groups / religions use the cross as a symbol? How many different meanings can one conjure from the cross? We need to think carefully before we go removing symbols every time some whacko does something horrible. What would be left? Do we really think racism was born of the flag? How stupid can we possibly allow ourselves to be? And stop likening the Confederate flag to the swastiska - that's ahistorical and it's also very stupid. If you don't understand the difference then take a basic European history course. If you're still confused, make a venn diagram to highlight the differences versus similarities. Systematic genocide of millions of people is quite different from the history of SC, where a tiny percentage of the population owned slaves. We need to learn to be uncomfortable while also asking nuanced, intelligent questions that help solve complex and challenging sociopolitical issues. How does the Confederate flag touted by racists lend them legitimacy? Is helping facilitate this legitimacy more costly than the lost sense of history and heritage others may feel once the flag is removed? Name-calling does not help. Let's use our noggins.
1
It is consistent with a particular political party's ideology and composite spiritual profile to show a lack of spine and tread like a pusillanimous creature when it comes to that outrageous symbol of a heritage linked with brutality, recalcitrance, a willingness to openly embrace and implement slavery on a regional and national scale.
That certain presidential hopefuls would rather cling to a symbol that stands for a willingness to start a war that claimed nearly a million lives on the battlefield alone(not to mention the widows and orphans left behind), which stands for bigotry, and which represents a longing for a twisted notion of idyllic times(i.e., sipping mint juleps in the shade under mimosa trees, watching the slaves toil in the fields while overseers wielded whips(ahhh, what a delightful moment in history) ) only throws into sharper relief the moribund and decadent character of said hopefuls. That mental visage that the cave-dwellers of the New South hold dear to their hearts and which soothes their unrepentant minds only serves to prod them on down a road of perdition.
Therefore, the cowards who are slithering on their bellies in regards to the question of this vile flag in order to curry the votes in a most undignified fashion, would rather "punt" and leave it to the states to resolve the matter rather than stand upright and say what the flag's supporters don't want to hear. Such is the ignominy of the American Electoral process.
That certain presidential hopefuls would rather cling to a symbol that stands for a willingness to start a war that claimed nearly a million lives on the battlefield alone(not to mention the widows and orphans left behind), which stands for bigotry, and which represents a longing for a twisted notion of idyllic times(i.e., sipping mint juleps in the shade under mimosa trees, watching the slaves toil in the fields while overseers wielded whips(ahhh, what a delightful moment in history) ) only throws into sharper relief the moribund and decadent character of said hopefuls. That mental visage that the cave-dwellers of the New South hold dear to their hearts and which soothes their unrepentant minds only serves to prod them on down a road of perdition.
Therefore, the cowards who are slithering on their bellies in regards to the question of this vile flag in order to curry the votes in a most undignified fashion, would rather "punt" and leave it to the states to resolve the matter rather than stand upright and say what the flag's supporters don't want to hear. Such is the ignominy of the American Electoral process.
5
Dear Commenters,
There are several notable changes in this column since the online version was released last night. Gone the comment about "political correctness", gone the opinionating about Sec. Clinton's motives for her statement to the conference of mayors. While some will see this as an example of "political correctness", the favorite trope of many, I do not. It is not the job of straight reporters to editorialize about motives and I welcome the changes. We would be better informed if that was more common.
There are several notable changes in this column since the online version was released last night. Gone the comment about "political correctness", gone the opinionating about Sec. Clinton's motives for her statement to the conference of mayors. While some will see this as an example of "political correctness", the favorite trope of many, I do not. It is not the job of straight reporters to editorialize about motives and I welcome the changes. We would be better informed if that was more common.
3
For the Southern mainstream the flag is an expression of regionalism against perceived Northern aggression. Aggressive Northerners seeking to ban the flag tend to affirm the very sentiment they attack. By forcing elimination of a symbol of regionalism they affirm the belief that the North aggressively overreaches. The anti-flag movement is self-defeating. Self righteous champions of the cause seek to aggressively remake the South rather than to address their own racism. The Southern mainstream correctly views that as misguided Northern provincialism.
2
This may not be relevant, but I find it interesting that the state congressional body is off until January. How many days do they work a year? And how much money do they get. From the end of June until January is 5 months. I wish Ihad a job like that.
4
It is inevitable that the flag will come down and I do not think that there are many who will be all that upset. Most people around here could care less.
5
The Senators Republicans take a step forward to take the of racism social inequalities economic decay and urban uneployment poverty crime and the lack of opportunities affecting the most vulnerable in social class in Communities of American
Germany would never allow a Nazi flag being shown anywhere in public. Likewise, all fascist symbols have been banned and torn down from historical buildings all over Italy. Even in Russia, the symbols of Stalinism were torn down shortly after the dictator's death, even when the Soviet Union remained a communist country. In Spain, you'll find virtually nothing suggesting that until 1976 the country was ruled by an iron-fisted dictator.
No country in the world ever allows the open display of symbols of past terror and oppression. That the USA would allow South Carolina this exception (especially considering the flag was put up as a reaction to the civil rights movement!) goes beyond any logical reasoning. That some politicians would avoid the issue altogether speaks volumes about their character and integrity.
No country in the world ever allows the open display of symbols of past terror and oppression. That the USA would allow South Carolina this exception (especially considering the flag was put up as a reaction to the civil rights movement!) goes beyond any logical reasoning. That some politicians would avoid the issue altogether speaks volumes about their character and integrity.
16
What, you spend seven years tearing down a presidency because the president is black, pass laws in over 30 states to make guns easier to get and use and in two dozen states you pass laws to prevent black people from voting and anyone is surprised? You spend 50 years appealing to race in the south where it is the evil seed of an evil way of life and anyone is surprised.
The Confederate Flag is no longer the flag of a lost cause, it is the flag of the Republican Party. Well the R in Republican is for racist because that is what the Party of Lincoln has become. There is a reason its base is old, angry, ignorant and 99.9 percent white. It is because of what it is selling and that is racial animosity and hate.
The Confederate Flag is no longer the flag of a lost cause, it is the flag of the Republican Party. Well the R in Republican is for racist because that is what the Party of Lincoln has become. There is a reason its base is old, angry, ignorant and 99.9 percent white. It is because of what it is selling and that is racial animosity and hate.
12
The candidates are right to leave a South Carolina issue up to that state to decide. Because while many see the rebel flag as a symbol of racism the fact is that this is not what that flag stands for to the people of S.C., and they do not fly it from their state capital because it is a symbol of racism, and for the purpose of stating that their state officially approves of racism.
When they say that it stands for their heritage they are telling the truth. And the heritage they are referring to is the unique heritage of the south, in that the south has its own history, culture, values and way of life, which gives it its own identity that sets it apart from the rest of the US till this day.
And the fact is that there is no symbol or flag that represents the south as a whole as being different than the rest of the US, and being a sub nation within a nation, than the rebel flag. This is why many in S.C want to keep that flag flying, not because they are racists and so they insist on making that clear by flying the flag of racism from their state capital.
As such it is simple arrogance for outsiders to 1. tell the people of SC what their flag stands for and what they are expressing by flying that flag and 2 ordering them to remove it.
If people believe that something is offensive based on the fact that they are mistaken in what that thing means, it is their duty to recognize their mistake and not to be offended.
When they say that it stands for their heritage they are telling the truth. And the heritage they are referring to is the unique heritage of the south, in that the south has its own history, culture, values and way of life, which gives it its own identity that sets it apart from the rest of the US till this day.
And the fact is that there is no symbol or flag that represents the south as a whole as being different than the rest of the US, and being a sub nation within a nation, than the rebel flag. This is why many in S.C want to keep that flag flying, not because they are racists and so they insist on making that clear by flying the flag of racism from their state capital.
As such it is simple arrogance for outsiders to 1. tell the people of SC what their flag stands for and what they are expressing by flying that flag and 2 ordering them to remove it.
If people believe that something is offensive based on the fact that they are mistaken in what that thing means, it is their duty to recognize their mistake and not to be offended.
2
Even if I concede to your argument, the fact remains that the confederate flag is the flag of traitors. It is the flag of the losing side of the Civil War. What country, (and yes, even though the South is rather distinct, it is still part of the U.S.) would let the losing side continue to fly their flag in any official capacity?
2
For politicians who must pander to a certain demographic, it's political suicide to call for removal of the Confederate battle flag. The best they can do is deflect the question: "We shouldn't let people in other states dictate what we do" seems to be a popular straw man these days.
4
Some people in South Carolina are concerned about the effect this will have on tourism and business.
Here's an idea.
Perhaps the United States federal government and the Pentagon should consider moving the very large Naval Presence from the state as long as South Carolina continues to promote confederacy.
Here's an idea.
Perhaps the United States federal government and the Pentagon should consider moving the very large Naval Presence from the state as long as South Carolina continues to promote confederacy.
12
According to Sen. Graham, the bipartisan agreement to place the Confederate flag at a Confederate memorial near the SC Capitoll "has to be revisited because the shooter is so associated with the flag.” IMHO, the Senator needs to be reminded that the Confederate dead, who were also American soldiers, have a significantly deeper association with that flag which should continue to memorialize their sacrifice, especially at Veterans and Memorial Day celebrations. To deny this is to rob the state and its honored dead of their heritage. The misuse of the flag by the shooter is a poor excuse for such robbery. We do not villify the flag of the United States of America because the American Nazi Party makes use of it!
1
Two things:
1) What about the democrats and their stance on this issue? Don't tie this issue to "country club republicans"
2) Let's not forget the sanctity of the Constitution and the 1st Amendment. You may not like the Confederate Flag, but don't deny someones right to fly it.
1) What about the democrats and their stance on this issue? Don't tie this issue to "country club republicans"
2) Let's not forget the sanctity of the Constitution and the 1st Amendment. You may not like the Confederate Flag, but don't deny someones right to fly it.
1
The state of South Carolina is not "Someone" It is the government of the state. If an individual wants to fly it, fine, they a right to show their colors. But the state is different.
With regards to your 2), it's not about denying an individual's right to fly it. It's about flying it over a government building. No one is forgetting the Constitution and the 1st Amendment.
It took the Dems, and their stenographers in the media, two days to play the race card.
"The blue star above the word “ARKANSAS” is to commemorate the Confederate States of America.." per Bill Clinton (Act 116) when he was Governor of Arkansas.
Will the NYTimes run a story saying Hilliary treads carefully in face of criticism of the 'racist' flag in Arkansas that her husband endorsed?
"The blue star above the word “ARKANSAS” is to commemorate the Confederate States of America.." per Bill Clinton (Act 116) when he was Governor of Arkansas.
Will the NYTimes run a story saying Hilliary treads carefully in face of criticism of the 'racist' flag in Arkansas that her husband endorsed?
Let me point out the following. If you drive pass the intersection of Route 75 and Route 4 in the State of Florida you will see the largest confederate flag in the country. When I go by it, I always ask why is it there. White people in the South use all kinds of symbolism to maintain a legacy of racism, which began when Americans said no to slavery. That said, Americans need to have confederate flag burning days. They should start now.
6
Of course they tread carefully. They don't want to lose the support of the haters on whose support they depend.
9
Have and Democrats namely the dems candidates currently vying for the nod spoken out? Hillary's been awfully quiet on this subject. Why single out republicans?
Their Jeffersonian, agrarian, state rights, confederation objective lost over the Northerns strong central Hamiltonian government policy, so there!
1
It amazes me that every time Republicans find themselves in an awkward situation because they've said or done something stupid, they hunker down and say or do something even stupider to defend themselves The response to climate change is "we're no scientists" yet when the pope states that humans are in part responsible for climate change you get idiots like Santorum saying the pope should stay out of the discussion because the pope isn't a scientist. Problem for Santorum is that the one DOES have a science degree. When they are exposed for accepting money from racist groups they immediately go into denial and try to deflect the issue by saying it's up to the States to determine which flag to fly, as if the issues are even remotely or logically linked. They say they are the party that recognizes the sanctity of life, let they're the first ones to divert money from social services and education so that money can be sued to bomb the hell out of other countries. They say government should not impede civil or personal rights yet they support eminent domain for the Keystone pipeline, oppose marriage equality, and impose restrictions on women's reproductive rights.
Either way they prove they're not ready for prime time, either because they are either so incredibly ignorant or so incredibly sleazy. At this point I'm not which applies.
Either way they prove they're not ready for prime time, either because they are either so incredibly ignorant or so incredibly sleazy. At this point I'm not which applies.
11
The ignorance of even Southerner's on the issue of the Confederate flag is staggering. That flag that Dylan Roof draped himself in, that white segregationists carried in an effort to thwart the Civil Rights movement, that has been associated with the Klan since Reconstruction is a symbol of hate. But, it is not the real "stars and bars" adopted by the Confederacy as their flag (google "stars and bars" and you'll find an example of what the Confederate flag actually looked like). IF, as a southerner, you feel it necessary to celebrate the existence of the treason of the South against the United States by displaying the Confederate flag at least fly the real flag of the Confederacy. Why Southerners chose to celebrate an absolute military defeat, the collapse of their chosen form of government, and a war against human freedom is a mystery to me.
BTW (I am an eighth generation Southerner whose ancestors fought for the Confederacy as a part of the Army of Northern Virginia, 38th Georgia Infantry, Company B, Milton County Volunteers)
BTW (I am an eighth generation Southerner whose ancestors fought for the Confederacy as a part of the Army of Northern Virginia, 38th Georgia Infantry, Company B, Milton County Volunteers)
5
There is no much difference between Charlies Hebdo massacre and this one. But I do no not see anything like like solemn march in the Paris boulevards including our representatives. Our feelings now petered out to discuss this petty confederate flag problem instead of showing our support of the African-Americans in every American city organizing marches to display our indignation to the world.
3
Since SC wants to remain part of the Confederacy as evidenced by their flag, I suggest they do not receive one dime of federal funds from the United States of America. Let's see how fast the flag comes down after that.
12
I remember, once, when I was in high school in the 70's I saw the confederate flag on the statehouse dome above the American and state flags. As an American and a southerner, I was deeply offended by that. Thank goodness I never saw that again.
3
That despicable and treasonous Confederate flag, THE symbol of white racists, should not be put in a museum. It should be burned where it stands: on the flagpole at the grounds of the South Carolina Capitol, the first state to ever try to secede from the United States of America.
7
The reason I support it being in a museum is that it is dangerous to erase our history.
1
I don't think the Republicans are having any trouble at all "energizing" the base of racists that support flying that flag. Their problem is attracting anyone else with a grain of sense. I'd voted Republican for most of my adult life, but finally read their platform during the last Presidential election, and realized that it didn't represent me or my beliefs at all....and I ended up voting for Barack Obama and would do it again. I really, really don't want to vote for Hillary Clinton, but feel like I will be faced with wishing there were a "none of the above" button on the voting machine. What's a moderate to do?
6
Janie,
Then let's support Bernie Sanders, who has not minced words one bit on this issue.
Then let's support Bernie Sanders, who has not minced words one bit on this issue.
You can always vote for Bernie Sanders. What's preventing you from looking outisde what the party wants you to do?
Hillary will do fine. That said, I wish someone like Mitt Romney who came out against the flag were running. I still wouldn't vote for him, but I'd feel more comfortable if there were someone like that who got the Republican nomination. It doesn't seem like there is, so welcome.
1
The Confederate flag is a visible political dog whistle. Enough.
4
I tend to agree with the southern white conservatives who say that the Confederate flag is a cultural symbol, "a symbol of their heritage". It is a heritage of white supremacy and slavery. And any time someone makes that vague claim that it symbolizes a culture and a heritage (I have never heard any white conservative southerner say exactly what the content of that "culture" and "heritage" is), I remind them that it is a culture and heritage of slavery and white supremacy, and violent rebellion intended to prolong that culture and heritage of slavery and white supremacy (it is always good to repeat that phrase, to drive home the truth).
If that is what they want to celebrate, fine; but they need to be honest and vocal about it (after all, when have conservatives ever failed to be vocal about anything?), and admit that they love their culture and heritage of slavery and white supremacy (there, I repeated it again! drive home the truth!).
Robert Coane: great Bonhoffer quote. Inaction speaks volumes.
If that is what they want to celebrate, fine; but they need to be honest and vocal about it (after all, when have conservatives ever failed to be vocal about anything?), and admit that they love their culture and heritage of slavery and white supremacy (there, I repeated it again! drive home the truth!).
Robert Coane: great Bonhoffer quote. Inaction speaks volumes.
10
Its not very clear to me why this matter is relevant in a national debate, whether its Republicans or Democrats. The matter is not a national one, its a state matter, and it is up to the people of South Carolina to make their own decision.
Personally, if I lived there, I'd choose to eliminate it, but my point of view is not germane. Aren't there a lot more important national matters to discuss?
Personally, if I lived there, I'd choose to eliminate it, but my point of view is not germane. Aren't there a lot more important national matters to discuss?
More important than institutionalized racism? Not many.
Nine solid citizens of the South were born, raised, and died as Americans first and foremost, under the Stars and Stripes of the flag of the United States of America, in a mean and senseless slaughter with a gun given as a birthday present.
The flag of the United States, and the flag of the Palmetto State are flying at half staff over the Capitol in Columbia. This is done as an official act of respect to the nine solid citizens of the South, murderd while they prayed for deliverance from evil. Yet even today, the confederate stars and bars flag is locked in place at the top of an adjoining flag pole.
What respect does this demonstrate, and why is it that none of those seeking the Republican nomination for President of the United States can't grasp this simple and yet highly fraught fact.
The flag of the United States, and the flag of the Palmetto State are flying at half staff over the Capitol in Columbia. This is done as an official act of respect to the nine solid citizens of the South, murderd while they prayed for deliverance from evil. Yet even today, the confederate stars and bars flag is locked in place at the top of an adjoining flag pole.
What respect does this demonstrate, and why is it that none of those seeking the Republican nomination for President of the United States can't grasp this simple and yet highly fraught fact.
5
So we learned that the Confederate flag over the state capitol in S.C. can't be lowered to half-mast - or anything else done with it, apparently - without a vote by a particular margin in the state Senate. - Unlike the US flag, which goes up or down on particular occasions just because the governor orders it.
In other words, the Confederate flag is not just "there," hanging around symbolically, South Carolina actually grants it higher status than the US flag.
So: think this through, because it is diabolical. It isn't by accident that they made it so difficult to lower that flag. Of course they knew many people didn't like it, so they wanted to make it hard to get rid of. But they must have also realized that this arrangement would create situations where the Confederate flag flew HIGHER than the US flag.
In other words, the Confederate flag is not just "there," hanging around symbolically, South Carolina actually grants it higher status than the US flag.
So: think this through, because it is diabolical. It isn't by accident that they made it so difficult to lower that flag. Of course they knew many people didn't like it, so they wanted to make it hard to get rid of. But they must have also realized that this arrangement would create situations where the Confederate flag flew HIGHER than the US flag.
14
Republicans made those laws about the confederate flag because a democrat had taken it down and a republican put it back up, they did not want any democrat getting in office and taking it down ever again.
Republicans can write some of the most convoluted, dishonest, unethical laws that you will ever see in defense of all of their indefensible positions.
Republicans can write some of the most convoluted, dishonest, unethical laws that you will ever see in defense of all of their indefensible positions.
1
I'm fairly conservative and definitely will be voting Republican next year. I have some libertarian tendencies so it would be hypocritical for me to demand SC replace the flag. Having said that, it saddens me to see the flag still flying. Even if you're a SC white and don't have any racist beliefs, clearly there is a group within SC that have usurped the symbol, so personally, I think it's time to remove the symbol altogether. Too many died to move the country forward - the flag is a symbol, which whether intentionally or not, seems to drag the country backwards.
As a side note, I'm not a Bush fan, but his stock just went up when I read he removed it from FL.
As a side note, I'm not a Bush fan, but his stock just went up when I read he removed it from FL.
Here's a compromise that should suit everyone -- fly the flag at half-mast.
How would that make it any less a symbol of racism?
The Confederate Flag is one which offends a large part of the population in South Carolina. I don't see it serving any purpose unless it's to alienate that population and keep them "in their place". That's what Hitler did, that's what has been done in the past in other nations/regions of the world to keep conquered or enslaved people properly submissive.
17
Watch how the GOP is looking to suppress the vote too.
2
Why?
Republicans openly condone racism, openly accepts support from bigots, so how did any of them get elected?
Republicans openly condone racism, openly accepts support from bigots, so how did any of them get elected?
14
@JPM08, Most of their voters are ill informed, poorly educated and believe in magic so are easily deceived. Then there are those who know full well what they are voting for.
Anyone who can see them as clearly as you do does not vote for them. They have been very effective at getting out the vote.
Anyone who can see them as clearly as you do does not vote for them. They have been very effective at getting out the vote.
1
Because bigots vote.
1
They cheat... simple as that.
1
Gov. Walker is the most clever of this new batch of GOP hopefuls with the regard to his use of coded language and policies to keep African Americans down.
His attacks on public sector unions and this non-sensible stance on addressing the issue of the flag are proof of this.
His attacks on public sector unions and this non-sensible stance on addressing the issue of the flag are proof of this.
8
Actually, it's increasingly clear that the Civil War never really ended, it just switched to combat by other, less-conventional means. In fact, looking at the current composition of our government with its bellicose, often-racist actions, its hatred of the less-fortunate, its constant efforts to re-establish the United States a Christian theocracy, and its dominance by Confederate politicians, one could argue that the South actually won the peace even if they lost the overt war.
8
The secessionist Democrats, who began the Civil War by attacking Fort Sumpter in Charleston harbor after the Republican Lincoln was elected president, must be laughing in their graves, both because there are any white Republicans in South Carolina today, and because these white SC Republicans are the very ones trying to keep the Stars and Bars flying next to the State House in Columbia!
2
Stupid gun policy really is the root of American insanity. It is denial of the whole concept of contracts where no right is unconditional.
5
"After Friday, when Mr. Bush initially seemed reluctant to ascribe the killings to race, his rivals were blunt on the question."
Americans deserve presidential candidates who demonstrate a capacity to discern right from wrong. Even at age 62 Mr. Jeb Bush stumbles and fumbles on matters that were literally life-or-death: an obvious racially-motivated massacre last week or the invade-Iraq issue two months ago.
Whether the "get it wrong" then "get it right" response is natural or contrived, Mr. Bush is telling us a lot about himself.
Americans deserve presidential candidates who demonstrate a capacity to discern right from wrong. Even at age 62 Mr. Jeb Bush stumbles and fumbles on matters that were literally life-or-death: an obvious racially-motivated massacre last week or the invade-Iraq issue two months ago.
Whether the "get it wrong" then "get it right" response is natural or contrived, Mr. Bush is telling us a lot about himself.
10
Those symbols do more than hurt people's feelings. They create an environment in which racism can take root and flourish. They indicate that racism is good and something that should be lauded and memorialized. They are the seeds of an evil that will grow inside a weak person's mind and heart and turn him or her into someone like Roof. Add in the lies and vitriol of Fox News and you have a soup that will poison the land.
12
Hello, GOP? Republicans? You really did it this time. Waffling between knowing what is right and being afraid to upset any constituents who support this symbol of sedition and pro-slavery, means you have questionable standards. It's almost like revisiting WWII and saying that "the Nazis weren't all that bad--look at all the innovations they pioneered!"
You may have cost yourselves a real chance at the Whitehouse for 2016. I hope you remember why. Because it's really not about the Confederate flag, but the attitudes in people's minds that see no wrong in actively flying it today.
You may have cost yourselves a real chance at the Whitehouse for 2016. I hope you remember why. Because it's really not about the Confederate flag, but the attitudes in people's minds that see no wrong in actively flying it today.
9
We now know why the 2016 Goop presidential wannabees are having such a hard time with the issue.
Dylann Roof cited racist screed on his website published by Earl Holt III, a notorious Texas racist from whom Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, and Rick Santorum have accepted campaign donations.
Generally, politicians are reluctant to criticize the hand that feeds them.
Dylann Roof cited racist screed on his website published by Earl Holt III, a notorious Texas racist from whom Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, and Rick Santorum have accepted campaign donations.
Generally, politicians are reluctant to criticize the hand that feeds them.
9
Don't tread carefully on me.
3
The power of the media must not be used to relegate to political campaigns an issue as important as whether to fly the Confederate flag on government spaces. The power of the media must be used to compel an immediate decision to prohibit flying the Confederate flag on any government space. The incumbents should not be allowed to shy away from making a decision that is imminent to the health of our country. The Confederate flag is not a tradition for southern white conservatives in the 21st century. It is a symbol of empowerment for all white supremacists, whether liberal or conservative, northern or southern. Not all white conservatives are white supremacists and not all white liberals are against racial discrimination. One thing is certain, whatever sociopolitical label is preferred, anyone who supports flying the Confederate flag in this day and age cannot claim to be against racial discrimination.
4
There is no such thing as a liberal white supremacist and you know it. The very act of being liberal precludes it. It is only conservatives and republicans, the word conservative is defined as, "one who is unwilling or unable to change" the white supremacist cannot change from seeing themselves as the supreme race.
There have been exactly ZERO liberals calling for the flag to be flown!
A democrat governor of SC already took the darn thing down once...then a republican put it back up and made laws so that it could never be taken down again.
That is who republicans are, that is their party and their policies and no matter how dishonest you are, you can't say with a clear conscience that democrats are doing the same.
There have been exactly ZERO liberals calling for the flag to be flown!
A democrat governor of SC already took the darn thing down once...then a republican put it back up and made laws so that it could never be taken down again.
That is who republicans are, that is their party and their policies and no matter how dishonest you are, you can't say with a clear conscience that democrats are doing the same.
1
Conservative (especially southern) Republicans have always walked a tightrope in condoning the racist views of many of their constituents while pretending otherwise to independents and minorities. It's what speaking in "code" is all about.
14
Many of my fellow Southerners argue that the flag stands for pride in the south and not racism. They say the flag has been hijacked by racist like Roof. (I know the feeling - I've kept my rattlesnake flag in my closet ever since it was taken as a symbol by the tea party.) However, a quick search of historical records reveals that the people who originally put up the flag in 1862 did so for reasons of deep seated racism. One prominent S.C. secessionist said, without a hint of irony, "Give me slavery or give me death."
20
SC started the Civil War, attacking the Federal base on Ft. Sumter, which is right out in the harbor in front of Charleston. Attachment to the flag by white Southerners comes from a sentimental feeling about their past and their ancestors,who fought and died in the war, which is understandable. I have (at least) two direct forebears who fought in the war, one of whom was wounded in it. To my mind, this kind of attachment to the past has to be trumped by the fact that the flag is the quintessential symbol of a society which thrived on slavery. To coyly pretend that the Rebel flag does not stand for a regime supported by slavery is intellectually dishonest, and there is *plenty* of contemporary evidence from the time to show that the "states' rights" argument is disingenuous, to put it mildly. Why don't these people hanker for whatever flag SC flew during the American Revolution, if it's tradition they're backing? The flag might be appropriate in Confederate cemeteries, but it was put up in the modern era as a rebuke to anti-segregation legislation, as a slap in the face to the black citizens of SC. It has to come down from the state house in SC, it just has to come down.
to come down from the SC state house, it just has to come down from there.
to come down from the SC state house, it just has to come down from there.
1
Why are the Republicans recognizing a defunct flag. They lost the war get over it. It makes as much sense as having a Mickey Mouse flag at their state capital.
11
A Mickey Mouse flag might be a fitting one for many states. I like that idea.
1
They know the right thing to do, but votes trump doing the right thing. The GOP has proved that for the last 25 years.
12
By now it should be clear that America has a problem, a problem that was not corrected by a civil war, by a voter rights Act, by affirmative action or by Martin Luther King. It is time for every family to have a conversation about how to fix it, not couch it with politically correct language, but actually fix it. No family should allow any racial slurs to be uttered in their household nor racial symbols to be displayed, and every family should take action to speak out against those that adhere to a racist mentality, including those that carry guns as a second amendment right. Finally as a nation we need to hold government accountable for it's inaction and question the actual motives of those for not doing the right thing for the common good for political reasons. Racism is deeply imbedded in out society and to root it out is everybody's responsibility.
8
A Call for Debate: Should the South Carolina Confederate flag be hacked?
I'm basically a freedom loving person, especially when it comes to freedom of thought and freedom of expression.
As far as I'm concerned, if someone wants to fly a Confederate Flag, a Nazi Flag, or even the modern American Imperial Flag (I personally prefer the old Betsy Ross flag of 1776 when this county was fighting against imperialism and not actively practicing it), that’s fine with me.
I do have a problem when States and Government impose flags on me. I can understand why many people in South Carolina would object to a flag that stands not only for heritage, but often for hate and racism. There are many people in South Carolina who choose not to personally fly this flag. But the State imposes it on them. If Governor Haley wants to fly her own personal Confederate Flag, that’s fine with me. But when she imposes it as representing the consensus of the people of her State, she has gone to far.
Fortunately, there is something that can be done about this problem. The flag can be hacked.
As makers and hackers know, it is possible to take out flags with simple tools. We all have access to modified drones, high power lasers, and other equipment that could fix this flag. People of good will could simply take out this ugly symbol with a bit of skilled making and hacking. No human being needs to be harmed or injured during the process. The question is, should we?
I'm basically a freedom loving person, especially when it comes to freedom of thought and freedom of expression.
As far as I'm concerned, if someone wants to fly a Confederate Flag, a Nazi Flag, or even the modern American Imperial Flag (I personally prefer the old Betsy Ross flag of 1776 when this county was fighting against imperialism and not actively practicing it), that’s fine with me.
I do have a problem when States and Government impose flags on me. I can understand why many people in South Carolina would object to a flag that stands not only for heritage, but often for hate and racism. There are many people in South Carolina who choose not to personally fly this flag. But the State imposes it on them. If Governor Haley wants to fly her own personal Confederate Flag, that’s fine with me. But when she imposes it as representing the consensus of the people of her State, she has gone to far.
Fortunately, there is something that can be done about this problem. The flag can be hacked.
As makers and hackers know, it is possible to take out flags with simple tools. We all have access to modified drones, high power lasers, and other equipment that could fix this flag. People of good will could simply take out this ugly symbol with a bit of skilled making and hacking. No human being needs to be harmed or injured during the process. The question is, should we?
3
These purported leaders of the party of Lincoln is afraid to speak out against the Confederate flag????!!! What a perversion!
3
I was curious about the laws on the confederate flag and found a few states ban desecration along with the US flag. Makes me feel like the war is still raging.
2
I Just Love To Solve Problems
I admit that the collective mentality of the residents of a state that fought removal of the Confederate flag from its statehouse dome and settled for flying it on its own staff on the front lawn of the capitol escapes me.
But I visit friends and family in the South Carolina Upstate with some frequency, and I'm confident corporations that should know better could bring an end to this nonsense practically overnight. BMW, Baldor Electric, Michelin, Sonoco Plastics and Products, Volvo (soon), and others -- and should I mention the administrations of the University of South Carolina and Clemson University should make a joint statement to the effect, ""Look, you want us to be central to bringing South Carolina into the twenty-first century or not? If so, (1) get rid of those damned rebel flags and the nineteenth century mentality they represent, (2) start paying waaay more attention to the education of South Carolinians than you ever have before, and (3) if you want automobile companies and their suppliers to be part of your future, raise the state gasoline tax and make a significant investments in your infrastructure."
"Otherwise, don't count on our expansion taking place in South Carolina."
You can bet your bottom dollar that such a joint statement would result in those flags disappearing in short order from all but the bumpers and rear windows of pick-up trucks and the front yards of mindless right-wingers.
I admit that the collective mentality of the residents of a state that fought removal of the Confederate flag from its statehouse dome and settled for flying it on its own staff on the front lawn of the capitol escapes me.
But I visit friends and family in the South Carolina Upstate with some frequency, and I'm confident corporations that should know better could bring an end to this nonsense practically overnight. BMW, Baldor Electric, Michelin, Sonoco Plastics and Products, Volvo (soon), and others -- and should I mention the administrations of the University of South Carolina and Clemson University should make a joint statement to the effect, ""Look, you want us to be central to bringing South Carolina into the twenty-first century or not? If so, (1) get rid of those damned rebel flags and the nineteenth century mentality they represent, (2) start paying waaay more attention to the education of South Carolinians than you ever have before, and (3) if you want automobile companies and their suppliers to be part of your future, raise the state gasoline tax and make a significant investments in your infrastructure."
"Otherwise, don't count on our expansion taking place in South Carolina."
You can bet your bottom dollar that such a joint statement would result in those flags disappearing in short order from all but the bumpers and rear windows of pick-up trucks and the front yards of mindless right-wingers.
5
Not to give up, but we must recognize that the south is to a great extent a heavely racists society that continues to fight the Civil War; and that flag is their standard. It is the flag of a treasonous country and it has no place flying over any part of the United States.
4
It's not the flag of our nation, it's not the flag of the state - it's the flag of a failed attempt to secede in desperate attempt to maintain an economic system built largely on inhumanity. How anyone who claims to be an American could fly such a symbol is beyond credulity.
It's a piece of our history - a tragic chapter in our nation that should serve as a perpetual warning of the dangers of unassailable division. It belongs in a museum, like the flag of the Third Reich - not as a testament to our advancement, but as a warning for all to come.
It's a piece of our history - a tragic chapter in our nation that should serve as a perpetual warning of the dangers of unassailable division. It belongs in a museum, like the flag of the Third Reich - not as a testament to our advancement, but as a warning for all to come.
13
Hmm, why would Republicans -- especially the presidential contenders -- tread so carefully about the Confederate flag? Maybe this has something to do with it: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/22/us/campaign-donations-linked-to-white-...®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
5
Boycott all States that continue to fly the Confederate Flag on Governmental levels. No tourism, no purchasing of products manufactured there and no supporting of sports teams or colleges from those States.
9
It is hard to believe that a symbol of treason and racism, the Confederate flag, is still viable in the US south over 150 years after the Civil War? The Washington Post showed in a recent article that parts of the Confederate flag are woven into 8 or 9 southern states flags. What I find really ironic, is that these states are "moochers" from the rest of the nation. They bring in more Federal benefits than they pay in taxes.
5
There is absolutely zero reason for "preserving the heritage of the Confederacy" or whatever anyone wants to call it. A war was fought in the name of keeping people slaves based on their skin color. Germany doesn't fly the swastika any more because it is a stark reminder of a dark time in its history of which it is not proud. The only reason the Confederate flag is displayed is to display pride. Pride in what, fighting a war to preserve the right to keep slaves who just happened to be black? Ergo, the only purpose that flag has is to legitimize claims that Blacks are inferior, which is basically a wink that racism is really OK.
The eradication of that flag would at least send the message that no government institution supports racism in any way.
The eradication of that flag would at least send the message that no government institution supports racism in any way.
4
If you have a Confederate flag, please don't join the rest of us at Fourth of July parades and fireworks. The Fourth of July is for proud Americans who believe in a truly United States of America, not Confederate sympathizers. Have the courage to stay home and mourn instead.
11
Amazing the amount of hate and vitriol expressed by commenters for Whites, Southerners, South Carolina, Republicans, the Confederacy, Tea Party, etc.
by, hmmmm, those crying for justice and equality.
Pardon, your disdain for groups you don't care for is showing.
by, hmmmm, those crying for justice and equality.
Pardon, your disdain for groups you don't care for is showing.
2
"Amazing the amount of hate and vitriol expressed by commenters for Whites, Southerners, South Carolina, Republicans, the Confederacy, Tea Party, etc.".....Did you intend to imply that White Southerners, South Carolina, Republicans, The Tea Party etc., should be fairly grouped with the Confederacy? Because if you did, you have answered your own question.
I find no inconsistency in being utterly intolerant of those who espouse intolerance. Not that hard to figure out really. Stop being so disingenuous.
1
Intolerance of intolerance is no vice.
1
I have no problem with a congressional bill affirming the American flag as the only American flag and that the Confederate flag, being the symbol of insurrection against the United States of America, its raising within the United States should always be regarded as an act of contempt for and insurrection against the United States of America.
14
Republicans seem to be having some problems keeping their monsters in check. The wink wink they gave southern bigots to get them to vote R, the attention paid to tea partistas, and the looney tunes they have played regarding Pres. Obama's Americanism, race, college education, etc., now are off the scale and should be giving every independent and conservative democrat pause before voting for any of these clowns. Or any republican for decades to come.
The confederate battle flag is a symbol, to those of us on the winning side of that conflict/state of mind, of a traitorous act, of treason, of despoiling the ideals of this great Country in a pathetic attempt to maintain ownership of people.
The confederate flag is as abhorrent to me as the nazi flag. Or the hammer and sickle.
The confederate battle flag is a symbol, to those of us on the winning side of that conflict/state of mind, of a traitorous act, of treason, of despoiling the ideals of this great Country in a pathetic attempt to maintain ownership of people.
The confederate flag is as abhorrent to me as the nazi flag. Or the hammer and sickle.
14
Can you really trust any politician who can't make a principled stand on such a simple issue? The flag represents the secession of southern states, an attempt to divide our nation in order to profit off the back of black slaves. If you want to advocate for secession and slavery, start doing so immediately in your campaign so that voters can be aware of your beliefs. Otherwise you must demand that this be relegated to the dustbin of history, or at least a museum. There is no middle ground.
22
Is this what southern confederates are celebrating? According to Wikipedia, "It (the U.S. civil war) remains the deadliest war in American history, resulting in the deaths of an estimated 750,000 soldiers and an undetermined number of civilian casualties.[N 2] One estimate of the death toll is that ten percent (1 in 10) of all Northern males 20–45 years old, and 30 percent (nearly 1 in 3) of all Southern white males aged 18–40 died.[11]" From 1861 to 1865 about 620,000 soldiers lost their lives.[12]" This does not include civilian deaths or the 10 and 12 year old boys they sent to die after their older male relatives had died. It does not measure the destruction of property or the near demise of OUR United States of America. It is time for the death of the "confederacy" and racism in America NOW! OUR votes is what will change it. Vote November 8 - a little over 4 months from now - only for democrats and others who truly want to restore democracy in America and tell the financial elite that WE run OUR country - not them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War
14
Isn't flying the Confederate flag tantamount to treason? Do they 'pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America' or not? Why isn't there an organized boycott of everything in S.C. until they remove this treasonous symbol of hate and disunion?
20
No matter what is said to justify the flying of the Confederate flag at the SC statehouse, it pales to all that it symbolizes. It is a sign that the Confederate South and all that it represented never died, it is the embellishment of the phrase, "the South will rise again", it is at the center of the battle between states rights and federalism, and it represents the rejection of almost every law proposed by Obama as well as being at the heart of the ACA controversy, gun control and reluctance to expose a system rigged against minorities. It favors those that started a war so that they could impose their own morality, twisted as it was, on their people in their own way. If we seriously look at politics today, that mentality still exists today and although it is called by different names, depending on the issue, it is gaining in popularity. Now is the time to call it what it is and bring America back to the people, all the people.
2
To fly on public property the flag of a defeated country that was the enemy of the United States of America is TREASON. Fly it in your yard if it is important to you, as you have that right which our country will defend to the death. But take it down from public property... unless the state wants to fight that battle again of course.
15
Why is this even a debate? Germany - which is made up of a patchwork of distinct states - owned up to the incredible cruelty of Nazism and agreed as a nation to bury that flag. Surely the US can do the same.
18
Time to take out the trash. It's piling up and it stinks.
The issue is a no-brainer, which would seem to make it understandable even to a Southerner.
The issue is a no-brainer, which would seem to make it understandable even to a Southerner.
24
The Republican politicians are worried about offending a bunch of unapologetic racists. One wonders how this political party even continues to survive, let alone prosper.
22
Over 150 years later, it seems the GOP has firmly locked up the Confederate vote.
The only person with any guts on the matter has been Mitt Romney.
Marco Rubio's response shows him to be the weasley politician he is.
Really unseemly.
Nikki Haley is a total crocodile tears hypocrite.
The only person with any guts on the matter has been Mitt Romney.
Marco Rubio's response shows him to be the weasley politician he is.
Really unseemly.
Nikki Haley is a total crocodile tears hypocrite.
17
Leadership is stating what needs to be done and taking the steps necessary to move the process along. The current crop of Republican candidates have all failed on this issue. To his credit, Governor Bush did the right thing in Florida but he needs to tell South Carolina explicitly what the right path is.
As long as we tolerate politicians whose first thought is "how will this affect me", we will never advance on issues such as this.
As long as we tolerate politicians whose first thought is "how will this affect me", we will never advance on issues such as this.
10
The Confederate Flag represents treason. It is a battle flag honoring a war fought to keep human trafficking legal in the South. It should be in a museum. There is no place for it, or what it represents, in modern government.
20
Anyone remember the Clinton/Gore campaign button that was a Rebel flag?
I do.
http://www.antiquesnavigator.com/ebay/images/2011/180685486471.jpg
I do.
http://www.antiquesnavigator.com/ebay/images/2011/180685486471.jpg
4
Mistake then, bigger mistake now.
1
I'm having trouble understanding this one.
Do the Germans still fly the flag of the Third Reich?
The only place for this flag is in a museum or on the History Channel. It's racist, repulsive and in my mind stands for ignorance and a hateful past. Get rid of it.
Can't post without saying my thoughts and prayers go out to all those affected by the Charleston terrorism of last week. Very few things move me to tears...that did.
Do the Germans still fly the flag of the Third Reich?
The only place for this flag is in a museum or on the History Channel. It's racist, repulsive and in my mind stands for ignorance and a hateful past. Get rid of it.
Can't post without saying my thoughts and prayers go out to all those affected by the Charleston terrorism of last week. Very few things move me to tears...that did.
22
Exactly. The Swastika is a symbol of the culture of the Third Reich, which is part of German history and culture. Fortunately, the vast majority of Germans, have the basic human decency to reject this part of their history and culture as wrong. Unlike Southerns, who refuse to repudiate a part of their culture which is literally saturated in the blood, sweat and tears of African slaves. Absolutely disgraceful.
4
I support those who wish to fly a Confederate States flag, for whatever reason. Ditto a Black Panthers flag.
For me, it is protected speech under the First Amendment.
For me, it is protected speech under the First Amendment.
1
Not if it is the government flying it. Then it is government-endorsed racism.
25
Then be true to your beliefs and stay home on the Fourth of July, no matter how tempting those parades, barbecues, and fireworks look.
2
Fine. But the flag of racist traitors who committed an act of treason by waging war against the United States over the right to own people as slaves has no business flying on public property.
If people want to fly it in their own homes, affix the image to their bumpers, etc., they can have their free speech. But the rest of us have free speech to call them what they are -- worthless, ignorant white supremacist trash.
If people want to fly it in their own homes, affix the image to their bumpers, etc., they can have their free speech. But the rest of us have free speech to call them what they are -- worthless, ignorant white supremacist trash.
3
The confederate flag is a symbol of treason against the United States Of America and any presidential candidate who does not explicitly say so is clearly not holding our nations principles as important.
22
"Oh, no, we aren't racists!"
Then why are y'all so afraid of losing racist white votes? If you pander to racists, you are, de facto, a racist.
Then why are y'all so afraid of losing racist white votes? If you pander to racists, you are, de facto, a racist.
19
And from the NYT, for those who did not read;
"And writing about the man accused of the Charleston shooting, The Guardian reports, “The leader of a right-wing group that Dylann Roof allegedly credits with helping to radicalise him against black people before the Charleston church massacre has donated tens of thousands of dollars to Republicans such as presidential candidates Ted Cruz, Rand Paul and Rick Santorum.”
So Republicans, can you tread on this, please?
"And writing about the man accused of the Charleston shooting, The Guardian reports, “The leader of a right-wing group that Dylann Roof allegedly credits with helping to radicalise him against black people before the Charleston church massacre has donated tens of thousands of dollars to Republicans such as presidential candidates Ted Cruz, Rand Paul and Rick Santorum.”
So Republicans, can you tread on this, please?
12
Well, the article also states that the candidates had no idea that such a person was making the donations. Perhaps folks should read the whole article, not just the parts that fulfill one's pre-existing partisan prejudices.
But *something* about those candidates, their rhetoric and their platform *attracted* that kind of support in the first place. Care to comment on what that might have been, Chris? What could Cruz et al *possibly* have been saying to make the Council of Conservative Citizens want to vote for them?
1
The rainbow flag flying at our embassies offends just as many; what should be done about those? Lincoln stated it best, “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”
They are flags people and they are not the root of racism any more so than the rainbow flag is the root of homosexuality. Does the peace sign really cause peace?
They are flags people and they are not the root of racism any more so than the rainbow flag is the root of homosexuality. Does the peace sign really cause peace?
1
Do you really know so little about the South?
4
That's a moronic association, since the rainbow stands for tolerance and acceptance and the Confederate flag for intolerance and oppression.
You cannot possibly compare the rainbow flag with a battle flag that represented the ultimate treasonous act...that's just foolish.
1
“for hateful people like Roof, it’s an affirmation because they have appropriated something and used it as a symbol of hatred..."
The problem is that it always represented hate in the form of racism. Today, there are those who understand that, those who won't acknowledge it, and sadly, those who embrace it.
The problem is that it always represented hate in the form of racism. Today, there are those who understand that, those who won't acknowledge it, and sadly, those who embrace it.
10
What if all "99" Republican presidential candidates got together and said, "We each declare that we think the Confederate Flag is a symbol of racism, brutality, and oppression and we feel that it has no place in American public or political life?
What if each of them took a stand against racism rather than waiting to see the outcome of the polls?
That would be too much like LEADERSHIP, wouldn't it? Cause you wouldn't want to lose South Carolina!
What if each of them took a stand against racism rather than waiting to see the outcome of the polls?
That would be too much like LEADERSHIP, wouldn't it? Cause you wouldn't want to lose South Carolina!
12
They don't want to have to send the money back to Council of Conservative Citizens, we'll see if Cruz really does.
1
How's that minority reach-out program that was started after another big Obama victory in 2012 working out for the GOP? Speaking out against a symbol of slavery and racism should be a no-brainer and the fact that the GOP can't even get this one right and uses the same justification the South used for slavery-- states' rights-- tells you all you need to know about the GOP. They are still, as Gov Jindal said in a moment of uncharacteristic sanity, "the party of stupid".
12
Leadership? Integrity? Ha!
8
Listening to the talking heads on the Sunday morning news interview programs, it struck me that the political rhetoric during the Obama years has heightened and exacerbated racial attitudes. That may seem counterintuitive given the apparent “hope” of a post racial society expressed by so many citizens when he was first elected. However, in too many communities in the nation, north and south, east and west, lots of ordinary citizens, already seeing their economic futures threatened, somehow transferred those fears to the election of a non-white President of the United States. Add that to a lingering base of racist white voters and the Republican Party found a rhetoric that helped them either stay in office or get elected to office. Prominent in that rhetoric was the phrase “take back our country.”
What indeed does that phrase mean, especially in light of a non-white President? And how does it translate into the behaviors of a wide assortment of American citizens?
• Does that explain a Congressman shouting at the President during the State of the Union speech, “You’re a liar”?
• Does that explain the exaggerated violence of police with African-American citizens in confrontational situations?
• Does that explain the shooting of African-Americans in a church during Bible study?
• Does that explain the deft rhetoric to avoid an unambiguous statement about the removal of a Confederate battle flag at the South Carolina state capital?
What indeed does that phrase mean, especially in light of a non-white President? And how does it translate into the behaviors of a wide assortment of American citizens?
• Does that explain a Congressman shouting at the President during the State of the Union speech, “You’re a liar”?
• Does that explain the exaggerated violence of police with African-American citizens in confrontational situations?
• Does that explain the shooting of African-Americans in a church during Bible study?
• Does that explain the deft rhetoric to avoid an unambiguous statement about the removal of a Confederate battle flag at the South Carolina state capital?
12
And to put this cherry on this toxic sundae, the representative who shouted, "You lie!" is from South Carolina.
His name is Addison Graves Wilson Sr., but he identifies as "Joe."
His name is Addison Graves Wilson Sr., but he identifies as "Joe."
1
The Confederate flag represents open armed rebellion and chest thumping endorsement of slavery and racism. It is akin to the Nazi swastika. To embrace it is to embrace the above horrors.
Get over it SC, join the 21st century. You embarrass yourselves on the global stage.
Get over it SC, join the 21st century. You embarrass yourselves on the global stage.
23
Let me put this in perspective as a white Southerner..suppose I was a white person in Germany. Would I seriously defend the Nazi flag as part of my heritage when it symbolizes the deaths of so many other white people? Now...make those people black. That flag is a symbol of racism pure and simple. Burn it.
16
If the governor was a real leader, she would take it down TODAY...before the lying in state of the slain Senator on Wednesday.
What will happen to her? Will she be thrown in jail? Lose a few votes the next time she runs? Whatever happens if she removes the flag will come back to her ten fold in support from good people all over the United States of America.
It's time to bring it down. Now.
What will happen to her? Will she be thrown in jail? Lose a few votes the next time she runs? Whatever happens if she removes the flag will come back to her ten fold in support from good people all over the United States of America.
It's time to bring it down. Now.
15
Funny thing. When I saw the fact that the Senator was to be placed in the Senate for his lying-in, I immediately thought of the mother of Emmet Till (who was the same age as I when he was murdered), who, on seeing her son's face, told the undertaker, "Don't touch his face. I want the world to see what they did to my child."
I imagined, momentarily, placing the coffin under or next to that flag with a statement regarding the relationship between the Reverend Pinckney and the Confederate flag.
I imagined, momentarily, placing the coffin under or next to that flag with a statement regarding the relationship between the Reverend Pinckney and the Confederate flag.
Is there any surprise now, when we have been looking at the electoral map for the past decades viewing that "solid South"? To whom did you think the dog whistles were speaking? Did you really believe that those screeching against our President were really just opposing his policies?
23
Those were not dog whistles, they were baying hounds on Obama's trail.
Huh. For once I agree with Mitt Romney.
The rest of them are just a bunch of triangulating twits
The rest of them are just a bunch of triangulating twits
18
Maybe. But don't forget that Mitt Romney, because he is a Mormon, depends less on the Bible Belt Republicans -- many of whom regard Mormons as barely Christian -- than some of these other yo-yos. In other words, Romney can better afford to take a correct position on the Confederate flag than Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio or Rick Perry or Ted Cruz can.
Flag debates? Dear politicians, don't you think you are busy with wrong business?
Authorities should stop to blame terrorists and racists. I mean not to cry out loud: 'What a shame, how terrible is it!'. But authorities should answer the question: 'What if?', 'What exactly to do if we want to solve the problem?'
Also they should take care of NRA lawlessness. Our nation is ''gun-addicted'', this is like drug addiction. Despite the fact that most do not know how to handle weapons.
Authorities should stop to blame terrorists and racists. I mean not to cry out loud: 'What a shame, how terrible is it!'. But authorities should answer the question: 'What if?', 'What exactly to do if we want to solve the problem?'
Also they should take care of NRA lawlessness. Our nation is ''gun-addicted'', this is like drug addiction. Despite the fact that most do not know how to handle weapons.
11
We are no meaner or kinder than before...we simply have access to better weapons and transportation.
Repeal the 2nd amendment and allow the states to determine gun regulations.
Oh, and please do not fly the flag over public property unless it is a cemetery.
Repeal the 2nd amendment and allow the states to determine gun regulations.
Oh, and please do not fly the flag over public property unless it is a cemetery.
6
While the Democratic Party has been also guilty in the use of bigotry in wedge issues the Republican Party uses this strategy far more often and is very skilled at it. It is not surprising that they are reluctant to admit to or cease using it. After all it got them the Southern vote.
13
One thing that confuses me with all this Confederate heritage nonsense is the fact that the colony of South Carolina was founded in 1663. Its palmetto flag has existed since 1775.
Why do the people and politicians cling to a Confederate battle flag that was only used officially for four years in a place that has a 350 year-old history?
That is the big Neo-Confederate lie here. There is no heritage for a 4-year flag of treason except for a nostalgia for slavery days and rebellion against the United States. And white supremacy.
Why do the people and politicians cling to a Confederate battle flag that was only used officially for four years in a place that has a 350 year-old history?
That is the big Neo-Confederate lie here. There is no heritage for a 4-year flag of treason except for a nostalgia for slavery days and rebellion against the United States. And white supremacy.
43
Governor Haley...tear down that flag!
23
I am old enough to remember the "Segregation now and forever" speech.
It's a beacon of hatred. "The noble lost cause" was the enslavement of human beings.
It's cousin and kin today to swastika flags.
It flew at the head of parades of men and women in white sheets.
It was the symbol of night riders, and those that murdered for no reason other than a mans color.
Let it sit in glass cases or be played with by reenactors.
It's a beacon of hatred. "The noble lost cause" was the enslavement of human beings.
It's cousin and kin today to swastika flags.
It flew at the head of parades of men and women in white sheets.
It was the symbol of night riders, and those that murdered for no reason other than a mans color.
Let it sit in glass cases or be played with by reenactors.
27
@Lawrence,
I like your post but I think the rhetoric of slavery making it seem the most unhuman of things is false. The fact is that slavery existed in Africa long before The Roman Empire and still does to this very day. There are slaves in Asia in all nations. In India alone 300+ millions of the people are born into hereditary slavery. It is the main function of the Caste System which so many pretend is gone yet strictly follow.
Slavery is wrong, it is evil. It is many things but most of all it is very human to enslave people. In the west we still do it but we use contracts and legalese to entrap people and constantly tell them they have a choice I guess to make it hurt more. I'm sure you have heard the complaints.
I like your post but I think the rhetoric of slavery making it seem the most unhuman of things is false. The fact is that slavery existed in Africa long before The Roman Empire and still does to this very day. There are slaves in Asia in all nations. In India alone 300+ millions of the people are born into hereditary slavery. It is the main function of the Caste System which so many pretend is gone yet strictly follow.
Slavery is wrong, it is evil. It is many things but most of all it is very human to enslave people. In the west we still do it but we use contracts and legalese to entrap people and constantly tell them they have a choice I guess to make it hurt more. I'm sure you have heard the complaints.
Republicans running for the nomination must parse their words: they know they must attract the Republican primary voting base, and I would venture that a significant percentage of these voters are racist. It is that simple and that appalling.
12
The successful "Southern Strategy" of winning elections is based on racism & continues to be used across the country today. The confederate flag is just one symbol of it, but focusing on the flag diverts attention from the NRA & how they own our legislators.
14
Agreement on the Southern-Strategy; but it could not work- and still work, EXCEPT for millions of willing participant voters.
Like a Rorschach test, what comes to my mind when I see the confederate flag is: Racism, KKK, criminality, violence, intolerance, xenophobia, prideful ignorance, fear. The last thing it would ever bring to my mind would be warm and fuzzy Southern hospitality and pride.
23
I grew up in the Northeast but hail from a family with deep southern roots. My great great grandfather owned a munitions factory, among other businesses, during the Civil War and supplied the Confederacy. Today, I'm a Yankee transplant living in South Carolina and loving it. I had accepted the Confederate flag as part of our heritage and have never considered it a symbol of racism. However, have come to believe that it should be in a museum and not on state grounds. It's part of our past, not our future. Having said that, please do not try to force or shame South Carolinians into removing it. That most definitely will not work. Courtesy, polite discussion and reason could prevail far more easily and less bitterly.
2
Politeness and reason have not worked for 150 years in South Carolina. How many more centuries should people try to reason about a symbol of hatred, treason and slavery?
8
The fact that you accepted the Confederate flag as part of your heritage, never considered it a symbol of racism and expect its display to be debated in a courteous, polite manner as if one was sipping iced tea on the front porch of their plantation is astounding.
1
Sorry, but a war was fought over the promulgation of the ideas behind that flag.
Not interested in polite discussion over the matter, just as I wouldn't be interested to know what my parents thought if I were to have married a black person. Not a topic of either interest or discussion.
Get rid of the flag.
The South long ago wore out the approach of civility on this matter.
Not interested in polite discussion over the matter, just as I wouldn't be interested to know what my parents thought if I were to have married a black person. Not a topic of either interest or discussion.
Get rid of the flag.
The South long ago wore out the approach of civility on this matter.
1
When flown over a government building, the Confederate flag gives an ambiguous state endorsement to the violent overthrow of the US government, and a possible state rejection of the supremacy of the federally-protected civil rights. Just as with the display of the 10 Commandments in a courthouse, it communicates a message that is antithetical to the rule of law and the equality of citizens.
When flown in other venues, such as a cemetery -- whether private or state-owned -- it may be a legitimate way of honoring the history of another generation, and an acknowledgement that ideas of right and wrong sometimes lead to apocalyptic clashes between good and evil.
Excluding the flag from certain state uses does not mean banning it, nor does it have to infringe on the freedom of citizens who might wish to display it.
When flown in other venues, such as a cemetery -- whether private or state-owned -- it may be a legitimate way of honoring the history of another generation, and an acknowledgement that ideas of right and wrong sometimes lead to apocalyptic clashes between good and evil.
Excluding the flag from certain state uses does not mean banning it, nor does it have to infringe on the freedom of citizens who might wish to display it.
11
Sequel, Boston: It seems you mean,"......the Confederate flag gives unambiguous state endorsement..."
It is just not Confederate flag alone. Streets are named after Confederate generals. There are statues in South Carolina public places of racist whites who tortured black Americans, and many more symbols all of which have to be removed.
I hope there will be a petition drive which will be signed by all 320 million Americans so the state of South Carolina takes notice.
It is just not Confederate flag alone. Streets are named after Confederate generals. There are statues in South Carolina public places of racist whites who tortured black Americans, and many more symbols all of which have to be removed.
I hope there will be a petition drive which will be signed by all 320 million Americans so the state of South Carolina takes notice.
@R Murty K: Actually, I did mean "ambiguous" -- because not everyone who sees that flag equates it with an endorsement of the Confederacy, slavery, or secession. Unfortunately, the existence of people who do see it as a government endorsement of those monstrosities of American history are precisely the reason that flying it over the capitol is a violation of government's role as guardian of the constitution, and of the civil liberties that are defended only by the federal government that that flag tried to topple.
For many millions of people of southern descent, like myself, the flag can demonstrate honor and respect for ancestors who found themselves trapped in a civilizational struggle -- apparently between ultimate Good and Evil -- in which innocence was extinguished, and civilization itself briefly vanished. The need for that respect transcends religion, or contemporary, or even historical politics. And that is why that flag may be appropriate in certain cemeteries and museums ... but absolutely never in places where the government transacts the public's business for the people of today.
For many millions of people of southern descent, like myself, the flag can demonstrate honor and respect for ancestors who found themselves trapped in a civilizational struggle -- apparently between ultimate Good and Evil -- in which innocence was extinguished, and civilization itself briefly vanished. The need for that respect transcends religion, or contemporary, or even historical politics. And that is why that flag may be appropriate in certain cemeteries and museums ... but absolutely never in places where the government transacts the public's business for the people of today.
1
Wait for it...not a few of the GOP beauty pagent contestants have been receiving campaign donations from Roof's spiritual leaders. Now that the Guardian has outed them, they will of course rush to return it: Cruz, Santorum, Rand. Shocked I tell you just shocked.
15
The Confederate flag is a the flag of a foreign government, albeit a defunct one.
How can it be legal in any way to fly the flag of a foreign government at a state capitol? Isn't that treason?
How can it be legal in any way to fly the flag of a foreign government at a state capitol? Isn't that treason?
26
Call me crazy, but I find it very odd to be discussing a flag when nine people have just died tragic deaths. Is there nothing more directly relevant to their deaths we can discuss? Nice deflection form the actual issue.
That said, South Carolina has a black senator, and an Indian governor. In many respects, the state is more "progressive" than most northern states. Northerners have a history of moral superiority on the issue of race that is largely undeserved, and my sense is that is one of the reasons the south is so stubborn on the issue of the flag.
Clean up your own houses, northerners, then preach to the South about its racial failures.
That said, South Carolina has a black senator, and an Indian governor. In many respects, the state is more "progressive" than most northern states. Northerners have a history of moral superiority on the issue of race that is largely undeserved, and my sense is that is one of the reasons the south is so stubborn on the issue of the flag.
Clean up your own houses, northerners, then preach to the South about its racial failures.
2
Ok. Lets all clean up our own houses at the same time and end racism in all its forms now.
Not every Republican is racist, but every racist is a Republican. Let's ask Dylann Roof who he wants to see in the White House!
23
Quite ironic - the party of Lincoln fighting to keep the Confederate flag flying over government buildings.
30
The "Party of Lincoln" was hijacked by southern Bubbas when the GOP nominated Barry Goldwater in 1964, three months after he voted against the Civil Rights Act. He lost the election but became the first republican to win the South since the Civil War.
That alliance worked well in presidential elections for 40 years (1964-2008), until Obama relegated it to irrelevance (he won easily twice despite losing white southerners by comical margins).
The GOP is not the "party of Lincoln" anymore, it's the party of Jefferson Davis.
That alliance worked well in presidential elections for 40 years (1964-2008), until Obama relegated it to irrelevance (he won easily twice despite losing white southerners by comical margins).
The GOP is not the "party of Lincoln" anymore, it's the party of Jefferson Davis.
1
So now the debate has turned into a debate on the flag. Did the flag kill anyone? No. It's a piece of cloth. It's meaningless. Burn it, cut it down, abolish it, or leave it up. Either way, nothing will have changed in terms of the real problem here.
Let's be clear: this is a problem of racism and psychopathy. It's not a problem of fricken printed fabric!
I mean, what the hell is wrong with people?
Let's be clear: this is a problem of racism and psychopathy. It's not a problem of fricken printed fabric!
I mean, what the hell is wrong with people?
2
......manifest in nothing so much as the Stars and Bars
No, the shooter was part of an active political movement with a history of targeting black churches (especially that particular church), and he said his goal was to re-start the Civil War. To re-start the Civil War, in a state that still proudly waves the banner of the South in the Civil War.
The flag isn't just a flag.
The flag isn't just a flag.
1
I totally agree on the basic point. Most US flags are made in China. Yet so many revere the symbol and consider themselves patriotic Americans. I don't know about the production of Confederate flags, but I wouldn't be surprised if the same were true. The most important point is that they are just symbols. Just like these words I am typing, they are representative of action, not action itself. (The action of typing is not the same as the the meanings the words convey, because, except for this sentence, the words are not about typing.) I am not impressed by either the waving or burning of flags. They are protected political speech, but neither the wavers nor the burners help people find jobs or win unwise wars fought in Iraq. But some people, a lot of people, are enamored of symbols or hate them as if they were more important than our fellow human beings. Making fun of the prophets of one or another religion in a cartoon is not the same as hurting the prophets, all of whom are beyond being hurt by anyone or anything. Yet a massacre in France occurred because of such cartoons. We cannot discount the power these symbols hold over large groups of people. As for this debate, it is much easier to debate what to do with a symbol than it is to debate how to solve the problems of the country, including why so many Dylan Roofs seem to exist, waiting for the trigger that propels them to commit such premeditated murders with seeming ease.
The confederate flag honors people who fought for the preservation of slavery. No amount of discussion regarding heritage can undo that fact. Anyone who honors that flag honors the fight for the preservation of slavery. The flag needs to go.
30
“G.O.P. Treads Carefully in Confederate Flag Criticism” synopsizes the Party’s moral ineptitude. This Party associates with care only when care is foolhardy. Treading carefully on this issue is morally opposite of reason and ethics. This Party would maintain moral standing by calling itself the Fort Sumter Party or, because it continually hunts absurdity, The Hunting Party. Aptly it has become the Low Common Denominator Party. It creates issues it ought not to have created and minces on issues that if it were bona fide it could have resolved decades ago. It is the party of American tragedy.
19
A French American was so proud of her Southern Ancestry and it was a bit of a family joke. 'She has sent enough documents to paper the walls of Penn Station!', her son would shout.
We nearly got ambushed into a bus ride by our parent to visit our 'Cousins of Baltimore' until I reminded my brother that we were now the grown-ups in this ancestral story.
The fierce arguments she and I would have when in adolescence I had plans to abolish slavery single-handed when returning to America. 'Go spend a year in Mississippi first, before you form an opinion!' was her retort, and she had a point. But it is the welcome that I might receive from White Southerners that remains simmering in the quiet embers here.
Yesterday I apologized for bumping into a young man with the looks of Denzel Washington and the height of the athlete Chamberlain. 'I nearly knocked you over', and we both started to laugh, but afterwards on walking home, I believe a metaphor may have taken place in this brief encounter.
All flags are lowered in this household until further notice, while my thoughts remain with the families of the Charleston victims and their loved ones.
We nearly got ambushed into a bus ride by our parent to visit our 'Cousins of Baltimore' until I reminded my brother that we were now the grown-ups in this ancestral story.
The fierce arguments she and I would have when in adolescence I had plans to abolish slavery single-handed when returning to America. 'Go spend a year in Mississippi first, before you form an opinion!' was her retort, and she had a point. But it is the welcome that I might receive from White Southerners that remains simmering in the quiet embers here.
Yesterday I apologized for bumping into a young man with the looks of Denzel Washington and the height of the athlete Chamberlain. 'I nearly knocked you over', and we both started to laugh, but afterwards on walking home, I believe a metaphor may have taken place in this brief encounter.
All flags are lowered in this household until further notice, while my thoughts remain with the families of the Charleston victims and their loved ones.
5
"Republicans Tread Carefully ..." as well they should.
Take a look at the list of Republicans who have received support from just one representative white supremacist group leader and you'll understand why: Ted Cruz, Rick Santorum, Rand Paul, Michelle Bachmann, Jeff Flake, Rob Portman, Todd Akin, and of course Steve King. It's a virtual who's who of the Republican Party.
www.nytimes.com/2015/06/22/us/campaign-donations-linked-to-white-suprema...
And it's not just the white supremacists who support them. These are the politicians people all across America elect to represent them.
This is not a South Carolina problem. It's an American problem. America heal thyself.
Take a look at the list of Republicans who have received support from just one representative white supremacist group leader and you'll understand why: Ted Cruz, Rick Santorum, Rand Paul, Michelle Bachmann, Jeff Flake, Rob Portman, Todd Akin, and of course Steve King. It's a virtual who's who of the Republican Party.
www.nytimes.com/2015/06/22/us/campaign-donations-linked-to-white-suprema...
And it's not just the white supremacists who support them. These are the politicians people all across America elect to represent them.
This is not a South Carolina problem. It's an American problem. America heal thyself.
17
It's time to seriously fight the war on terror. Use whatever means we need to fight those anti American terrorists.
We need to start with SC not AStan.
We need to start with SC not AStan.
14
When Mr. Bannon (a S.C. GOP lawmaker) says that lit a fire under him was the death of his friend, we get to see a deep reality in the politics of those who want to see the Confederate Flag still fly in S.C.
The reality is that most of those supporters of the rag probably do not have a single black friend. They probably do not interact, except at the most superficial level, with blacks. They probably never invited a black friend to a BBQ or a party. These are people who probably never think of the hurt blacks feel when they see that rag, flying high atop its mast while our National Flag is at half-mast! These are people who never think about looking at a 5-year old little girl or boy and only think of them in terms of property. Having no qualm about selling that child or his/her parents away. And that is exactly what their ancestors did. Their ancestors fought a civil war in order to continue perpetrating this atrocity. And yet, they want to honor that. This is as if descendants of Nazis wanted to fly the Nazi flag in order to honor their "Heritage". 150 years after the Civil War we have changed so much. There is so much that unifies us as Americans or even as Citizens of the World. Why are some people keen on cherishing a symbol that can only divide us along the lines of lovers of Freedom and lovers of Slavery?
The reality is that most of those supporters of the rag probably do not have a single black friend. They probably do not interact, except at the most superficial level, with blacks. They probably never invited a black friend to a BBQ or a party. These are people who probably never think of the hurt blacks feel when they see that rag, flying high atop its mast while our National Flag is at half-mast! These are people who never think about looking at a 5-year old little girl or boy and only think of them in terms of property. Having no qualm about selling that child or his/her parents away. And that is exactly what their ancestors did. Their ancestors fought a civil war in order to continue perpetrating this atrocity. And yet, they want to honor that. This is as if descendants of Nazis wanted to fly the Nazi flag in order to honor their "Heritage". 150 years after the Civil War we have changed so much. There is so much that unifies us as Americans or even as Citizens of the World. Why are some people keen on cherishing a symbol that can only divide us along the lines of lovers of Freedom and lovers of Slavery?
12
Perhaps someday the US Civil War will be recognized for what it was, a cartel of wealthy industrialized agro-business owners who could not envision their survival without subjecting other humans to slavery. It was not some theoretical "states rights" issue that drove people to war. It was slavery, and that is about as shameful a cause as was ever pursued. Ban that rotten flag.
11
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Any political leader or candidate that does not explicitly support removal of the Confederate flag from government is a co-conspirator in this and any other racially motivated terrorist attack. Past and future.
As a conscientious South Carolina resident, I am appalled that this symbol of hatred still persists.
Any political leader or candidate that does not explicitly support removal of the Confederate flag from government is a co-conspirator in this and any other racially motivated terrorist attack. Past and future.
As a conscientious South Carolina resident, I am appalled that this symbol of hatred still persists.
10
There's free speech and hate speech, which should NOT be considered free speech. When I read this morning about "Concerned Conservative Citizens," a group linked to Mr. Roof, and its donations to right-wing "conservative" candidates, I realize that "conservative" is indeed the wrong word for GOP antonymland. The correct word is "authoritarian," and am reminded yet again of a sociological study published in 1950 entitled "The Authoritarian Personality."
While the mindset of that study reflected the (we thought) recently-defeated Third Reich, with its Master Race and blind followers, not to mention victim classes, it seems that this cancer has found a new home in these United States in what calls itself "conservative" or "people of faith," but is really just a locally mutated version of the same sort of hate.
If racism is obvious, what will follow. We've seen the use of another terrorist attack (whose occurrence was known as quite possible but for which NOTHING was done in the line of prevention) callously used as a means to political power: 9/11. We now see the demonization of Muslims. Which group is next to be labelled "un-American"?
While the mindset of that study reflected the (we thought) recently-defeated Third Reich, with its Master Race and blind followers, not to mention victim classes, it seems that this cancer has found a new home in these United States in what calls itself "conservative" or "people of faith," but is really just a locally mutated version of the same sort of hate.
If racism is obvious, what will follow. We've seen the use of another terrorist attack (whose occurrence was known as quite possible but for which NOTHING was done in the line of prevention) callously used as a means to political power: 9/11. We now see the demonization of Muslims. Which group is next to be labelled "un-American"?
8
Just wonder what the late Strom Thurmond - the Face of South Carolina's visceral hatred of Blacks would say [now] about the flag after this massacre? (Even his heart was changed). South Carolina is the only State in this Union still officially flying the Confederate Flag; Heritage or Hate? The latter cannot be extricated from the former This flag represents a Heritage OF Hate.
8
I thought of something today, and just wanted to ask it on a public forum. I must say first that, thinking of something does not mean I believe it. I understand the separate argument that it is state property so the flag shouldn't fly, my question ignores that.
Often times I hear people say the Confederate Flag should not fly anywhere, even on private property. The argument behind not flying it is, "The flag has a history of oppression behind it." So my question is, in all fairness, shouldn't all crosses be pulled down and churches be made nondescript? The church has a well documented history of oppression, death, and subjugation. Why are we okay with one symbol with a bloody history being easily seen everywhere but, not another? How about the current American Flag? America has committed many atrocities. Is it okay because in some way those symbols have been "redeemed?" If they are redeemable, why can't the current Sons of the Confederacy, who often understand the short comings of the Confederacy, redeem a symbol of their history?
Often times I hear people say the Confederate Flag should not fly anywhere, even on private property. The argument behind not flying it is, "The flag has a history of oppression behind it." So my question is, in all fairness, shouldn't all crosses be pulled down and churches be made nondescript? The church has a well documented history of oppression, death, and subjugation. Why are we okay with one symbol with a bloody history being easily seen everywhere but, not another? How about the current American Flag? America has committed many atrocities. Is it okay because in some way those symbols have been "redeemed?" If they are redeemable, why can't the current Sons of the Confederacy, who often understand the short comings of the Confederacy, redeem a symbol of their history?
Not all churches conducted witch trials, etc., so your argument is false, while the Stars 'n Bars was the flag my southern ancestors fought under, in a war that killed hundreds of thousands. And yes, they owned a slave or two. Do the research, dig deep, put the flag in a museum - don't fly it from a state house.
The confederate battle flag (for that is what this flag is) represents a treasonous nation that seceded from the US. Somewhat different. Even if there are significant people who think that this represents more than pro-slavery, it still represents treason for the sheer act of seceding from your country is treason. A flag representing treason should not fly.
The Confederate battle flag, the stars and bars, needs to go. It is not a symbol of heritage. Whatever positive or proud meaning it once had has been perverted by those who cling to it as a symbol of white supremacy. The time has come to relegate it to museums. The stars and bars now represent the past. I am very interested in seeing how Hillary Clinton skates on this issue. If she can not articulate a clear statement declaring the battle flag must come down off the State House grounds then she really is the phony baloney I thought. As to the Republican candidates, same goes for them: speak clearly and truthfully or go home and take your campaign with you. The more they twist themselves into verbal knots trying to obfuscate, the worse they look. (Double for Huckabee, a former southern state governor.)
1
Getting rid of the flag won't get rid of the pervasive racism in South Carolina. That doesn't mean that the flag should still be flown but expecting a sudden shift in attitudes simply by taking the symbol down is unrealistic.
2
Taking the flag down isn't a cure. It is a start.
A large part of South Carolina's population finds the Confederate battle flag offensive, and sadly it has become for some a symbol of racial hatred. For those reasons, I would agree that South Carolina, after a deliberate process, should remove the flag from the state capitol grounds and as a symbol of state government.
But there is a place for the battle flag, which honors an extraordinary sacrifice by the people of that time, most of whom did not own slaves.
The price paid by the South in the Civil War was incredibly high. Perhaps 50 percent of males of military age in the North fought in the war. In the South, roughly 80 percent of white males of military age (14-43) fought, perhaps 20 percent of those were killed or otherwise died in the conflict (in the early 20s age group, the percent who died was higher). And then there are many who were seriously wounded, and the economically devastated region.
Slavery and the Civil War are our history. We have a national capital and a state named after a slave owner, and if we start taking the names off schools and cities and highways of people who owned slaves, or who economically grew wealthy off slavery, or endorsed a constitution that recognized slavery, we will be removing many names.
The sacrifice and courage of those who fought should not be forgotten. And that they fought and died in a war they lost and for a reason as simple as they were called to fight only underscores their sacrifice and courage.
But there is a place for the battle flag, which honors an extraordinary sacrifice by the people of that time, most of whom did not own slaves.
The price paid by the South in the Civil War was incredibly high. Perhaps 50 percent of males of military age in the North fought in the war. In the South, roughly 80 percent of white males of military age (14-43) fought, perhaps 20 percent of those were killed or otherwise died in the conflict (in the early 20s age group, the percent who died was higher). And then there are many who were seriously wounded, and the economically devastated region.
Slavery and the Civil War are our history. We have a national capital and a state named after a slave owner, and if we start taking the names off schools and cities and highways of people who owned slaves, or who economically grew wealthy off slavery, or endorsed a constitution that recognized slavery, we will be removing many names.
The sacrifice and courage of those who fought should not be forgotten. And that they fought and died in a war they lost and for a reason as simple as they were called to fight only underscores their sacrifice and courage.
Let me make you think about something. Do you think we are all equal as Americans? Now, before you answer that question, let me ask you this:
Should Black Americans honor the memory of those who fought to keep Black people in bondage?
Now that you have answered that question (and there is only one correct answer), the next question is this:
Removing the word "Black" from the last question, what should the answer be? In other words: Should Americans honor the memory of those who fought to keep people in bondage?
If you believe that there are only Americans and not hyphenated Americans you know what the answers should be.
Should Black Americans honor the memory of those who fought to keep Black people in bondage?
Now that you have answered that question (and there is only one correct answer), the next question is this:
Removing the word "Black" from the last question, what should the answer be? In other words: Should Americans honor the memory of those who fought to keep people in bondage?
If you believe that there are only Americans and not hyphenated Americans you know what the answers should be.
With their "Don't tread on me" States Rights philosophy, conservative Republicans find themselves in a sticky wicket. How does the GOP placate their Southern White majority base who view the Confederate flag as some racist badge of courage and more important than the American flag while realizing the longer they hold onto this shrinking stinking thinking, they are doomed into any hope of them ever winning the only national office in the land, the Presidency.
South Carolina was at the forefront of secession from the Union. Though more than a century has passed the Southern White voting bloc remains beholden to not only a symbol of Slavery but of Treason. It is the Losers flag, and because racism still exists, now masking itself as some homage to those who fought for the Confederacy, it remains flying high above the Capitol.
This is an insult not only to Blacks but all of US who are outraged the Losers of the Civil War could continue to have such clout and harbor such hatred toward Black folk. it is an embarrassment to a so-called civilized society. But maybe we are really not that civilized to begin with.
At least not within White South Carolina and the States Rights Republican Party. That is why I'm voting Democrat.
DD
Manhattan
South Carolina was at the forefront of secession from the Union. Though more than a century has passed the Southern White voting bloc remains beholden to not only a symbol of Slavery but of Treason. It is the Losers flag, and because racism still exists, now masking itself as some homage to those who fought for the Confederacy, it remains flying high above the Capitol.
This is an insult not only to Blacks but all of US who are outraged the Losers of the Civil War could continue to have such clout and harbor such hatred toward Black folk. it is an embarrassment to a so-called civilized society. But maybe we are really not that civilized to begin with.
At least not within White South Carolina and the States Rights Republican Party. That is why I'm voting Democrat.
DD
Manhattan
10
The South is the sick man of the United States. It lags behind the rest of the country in every measure of human progress: health, education, welfare, justice, equality, and opportunity. It's sickness has spread north to Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin. Maybe it is time to consider giving the original states of the Confederacy what they want. Let them secede and keep their flag. Imagine how much better the rest of the country would be without them. We could make real progress on health care, income inequality, the environment, educational achievement, science, and more. They don't want our help and they hold us back. How much longer are we going to let this go on?
8
It ain't history. It's support for treason and racism.
10
Interesting that southerners, today, consider that flag a sign of their refusal to be subjugated, while liberals are busily demanding they remove it because they only see the historical significance of it.
And while liberals use the flag as a cudgel against every group they dislike (ex., GOP, southerners) and have managed to politicize it, it is poor African-Americans who have to contend with its negative significance. They are really the only ones who have a legitimate complaint.
I hope the South Carolina legislature and all residents can feel their pain after this tragic event, stand with them and do the right thing with this flag. Good luck, Governor Haley. Hope you can do what Governor Bush was able to do in Florida. Retire it to a museum.
And while liberals use the flag as a cudgel against every group they dislike (ex., GOP, southerners) and have managed to politicize it, it is poor African-Americans who have to contend with its negative significance. They are really the only ones who have a legitimate complaint.
I hope the South Carolina legislature and all residents can feel their pain after this tragic event, stand with them and do the right thing with this flag. Good luck, Governor Haley. Hope you can do what Governor Bush was able to do in Florida. Retire it to a museum.
1
Yet hundreds of thousands of white Union soldiers died in the Civil War. Perhaps their descendants also have a right to complain. The war was a rebellion against the United States and was treason. It was about disunity and slavery. All Americans should be deeply offended. This isn't only a black and white issue.
1
If Dylan Roof had held the American flag, what then? If he had held the Gadsden flag, what then? I would bet my house, that you would be able to perform a "find and replace" of the words Confederate and Tea Party. I'm certain many here already consider the two synonymous. If S.C. put the original flag of the Confederate States of America in place of the “stars and bars”, then no one commenting here would know any better. But that's how politically motivated entities like the NYT and others engage the lowest common denominator of the voting populous: redirect the focus from things that matter to things that don't; such as inanimate objects. Like a flag, and ‘what does it mean to you?’.
Flags are symbols. Symbols mean different things to different people. For example, Asian cultures still adorn themselves/temples with swastikas (ex. South Korea). So do we banish all symbols that have any historical association with wrongdoing, ignorance, and hate? Are we that weak-minded? It's the thing that matters, and it's the thing Roof believed in/thought that is the actual problem. I'm certain that my assertion that the American voting populous would be better served critiquing their own personal ignorance in place of conjecture over a flag will be greeted with ‘racist’ or ‘romanticizing about an era of hate.’ So sure, take the flag down. Congratulations, you took down a flag. There are still ignorant people out there, and the flag that upsets you so much still exists elsewhere.
Flags are symbols. Symbols mean different things to different people. For example, Asian cultures still adorn themselves/temples with swastikas (ex. South Korea). So do we banish all symbols that have any historical association with wrongdoing, ignorance, and hate? Are we that weak-minded? It's the thing that matters, and it's the thing Roof believed in/thought that is the actual problem. I'm certain that my assertion that the American voting populous would be better served critiquing their own personal ignorance in place of conjecture over a flag will be greeted with ‘racist’ or ‘romanticizing about an era of hate.’ So sure, take the flag down. Congratulations, you took down a flag. There are still ignorant people out there, and the flag that upsets you so much still exists elsewhere.
1
You need to start somewhere. And stopping state sanctioning of the confederate flag is as good a place as any.
2
I kindly disagree. We can start in our homes, with our children. We can start in our schools, with our children. We can start in our churches/places of worship, with our children and each other. We can start when we're sitting at our local bar, restaurant, or other public place that we freuqent often enough to speak to others kindly and openly. We can start in our communities at community events - talking with one another; learning from one another. Perhaps if more folks did that, then kids like Dylan wouldn't do what he did/think the way he thought. That, my friend, will mean infinitely more than taking down a flag - which even if it were to happen as it's own symbol, the comments here show such a symbol would do little to nothing in terms of concordance with liberals/democrats; who state things like "all republicans are racist." Take down the ignorance, and whether the flag remains will take care of itself. It's just easier to take down a flag because it's the path of least resistance.
It's time to give up the old canard that Republican=Racist. We will never move beyond this until we accept that human dignity is more important than political rhetoric.
2
Republican Pols are not necessarily racist, but they engage in coded language "Obama is not one of us" to motivate (anger, enrage) members of their base who are. Without conservative racists Republicans would not have the numbers to get elected.
2
???? A canard of your own making.
Living in Texas, I am constantly bombarded with images and depictions of the Confederate battle ensign (not the Confederate flag). That is the flag that flies in South Carolina. I wonder how many people in this state know that the greatest Texan of them all, Sam Houston, was opposed to secession, and died in 1863 lamenting the fact that Texas had left the Union?
14
Every time I tell a fellow Texan that they seem shocked and nearly refuse to believe it. It is humorous.
3
What people typically display is not a flag of the confederacy, it is the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.
It's not just the flag flying on the grounds of a State Capitol.
It's the Confederate battle flag flying over the grounds of the State Capitol of South Carolina. The State that deliberately, and determinedly fired the first shots of the Civil War. What other reason could there be for continuing to fly a battle flag with a specific history over the grounds of an existing legislature, except as a reminder that what happened once, could happen again? And for the same reason.
And, in the end, what was the young Charleston murderer doing, if not trying to fire the first shots of another civil war?
It's the Confederate battle flag flying over the grounds of the State Capitol of South Carolina. The State that deliberately, and determinedly fired the first shots of the Civil War. What other reason could there be for continuing to fly a battle flag with a specific history over the grounds of an existing legislature, except as a reminder that what happened once, could happen again? And for the same reason.
And, in the end, what was the young Charleston murderer doing, if not trying to fire the first shots of another civil war?
22
Republicans say they are too busy mourning to make a simple statement: The star and bars need to be gone; relegated to museum status, or left for radical racists to flaunt and memorialize. The Confederate flag has no place in any official governmental area. It may well represent heritage and symbolize a courageous past, but it is also the banner of racist and killers of hate mongers. Its time is past.
If a presidential candidate cannot acknowledge the simple truth of what this flag means, and what needs to be done, he or she really is not ready to lead our nation.
If a presidential candidate cannot acknowledge the simple truth of what this flag means, and what needs to be done, he or she really is not ready to lead our nation.
27
You are absolutely correct. Let me support your view.
A Presidential candidate who cannot acknowledge the simple truth represented by this flag and who cannot unambiguously state that this was a racially motivated crime, is NOT READY to LEAD this NATION!
A Presidential candidate who cannot acknowledge the simple truth represented by this flag and who cannot unambiguously state that this was a racially motivated crime, is NOT READY to LEAD this NATION!
2
The Museum of Communism in Prague details the horrors of the Soviet occupation with clear eyes and damning evidence on every wall, screen and table, and the giant statues of Lenin look very small in that context. Perhaps it's time the United States had its own Museum of Racism, where citizens and tourists alike could confront our nations's ugly history--a history that's still being written.
23
Actually, there is the Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia at Ferris State U that has some of the saddest examples of our nation's culture you can find. I would also recommend diving deep into your family's past. If they were in the South - or even in the North - there could be some real links to that part of our history.
This flag is the US equivalent of the swastika, and should be relegated to a museum describing the hundreds of years of racism that it represents.
43
@ Bill
Essentially true but another one of the huge American paradoxes or hypocrisies if you like. The stars and bars is the symbol of the only generalized tyranny (that lasted for about 350 years in total) that has existed in the US and yet it is venerated across the South and Republican politicians well aware of the opinions of their voters avoid like the plague.
Essentially true but another one of the huge American paradoxes or hypocrisies if you like. The stars and bars is the symbol of the only generalized tyranny (that lasted for about 350 years in total) that has existed in the US and yet it is venerated across the South and Republican politicians well aware of the opinions of their voters avoid like the plague.
3
While I can comprehend a smattering of logic in allowing the state of SC to fix its own problems, I do not believe the issues and social environment that caused the tragic death of 9 Americans is restricted to SC. It is an American illness and we as Americans, regardless of the state in which we reside, our color, religious beliefs or political preference must speak up in support of what is simply the "right thing to do."
If nothing else, we must teach our children by what we say and what we do that respecting and valuing human life, dignity and responsible behavior is paramount and we hold nothing, nothing in higher regard!
We can start by holding our elected representatives accountable for leadership that is in the best interest of America not in their supposed interest to get elected or reelected.
For too long we have all been guilty of these heinous acts against our fellow men, women and children by our silence.
Enough! It is time to reinstate Dr. King's philosophy of non violent protest. May our voices be loud and clear to all elected officials and others in positions of authority: if you do not have the backbone to do what is right, to protect us all as American citizens, and to enact laws that proclaim to the world that we are a safe, fair and just nation, then find another line of work.
Together e can live in Peace and Prosper.
If nothing else, we must teach our children by what we say and what we do that respecting and valuing human life, dignity and responsible behavior is paramount and we hold nothing, nothing in higher regard!
We can start by holding our elected representatives accountable for leadership that is in the best interest of America not in their supposed interest to get elected or reelected.
For too long we have all been guilty of these heinous acts against our fellow men, women and children by our silence.
Enough! It is time to reinstate Dr. King's philosophy of non violent protest. May our voices be loud and clear to all elected officials and others in positions of authority: if you do not have the backbone to do what is right, to protect us all as American citizens, and to enact laws that proclaim to the world that we are a safe, fair and just nation, then find another line of work.
Together e can live in Peace and Prosper.
13
Some republicans over stepped their grand standing in a hysterical frenzy against the history of our country and the bravery of our citizens. Normally, this has been done by neo-phites like B'Hillerary Clinton as they move from the trailer parks to financial foundation status stealing. Now that both parties are so lame as to be running so fast a voter can't put his money or ideals into their pockets. We need new parties. A real wester country has many funtional parties and a system of government that makes it happen. The Corporation control kinda takes a more crooked and expensive route to control then.
The Confederate flag as an honorable symbol and its associated notion of "the South will rise again" is just a fantasy, one that's no more justified that my dreams of unicorns and winning the lottery. People who fly the flag are honoring a heritage of hatred, criminality, rape, violence, and treason. To hold onto such a past is a sign of mental illness, seeding a continuation of 19th century failures.
16
Until South Carolina stops electing legislators and executives who enact policies that are detrimental to the lives of African-Americans, until they enforce equal rights and anti-discrimination laws, until those who are nostalgic for Southern slavery culture no longer have any power or influence in state or local government, until South Carolina grows out of its deeply ingrained culture of racism, they may as well keep flying the Confederate flag. It's truth in advertising, and a clear signal that African-Americans and their sympathizers are not welcome in the state. In fact, we should fly the flag over every state in the union as a mark of shame until that government has earned the right to be free of it by ensuring that its citizens are safe from brutality and persecution and live in a society with equal opportunity for all.
8
The Confederate flag and the Nazi flag are the same they represent hate and intolerance and can only lead to mass bloodshed as in the past. The Confederate flag should be outlawed as a first step towards a truly civilised society where everyone is equal.
13
Ah, the 21st century of the Republican Party. The party of Lincoln not repudiating symbols of racism and hate. Gutless wonders.
19
Why must they "tread carefully"? The flag was put up for racist reasons and racists use it as a racist symbol. Anyone who cannot bring themselves to say "Governor Haley, tear this flag down!" is not fit to lead this nation.
17
Well, unfortunately, Gov. Haley said that she was unprepared to address it because she hadn't yet heard from the business community. The business community! If you need to know anything more about who the Republicans feel are their constituents, that should tell you.
Stir up the "rabble", of course, but listen to their corporate masters.
Stir up the "rabble", of course, but listen to their corporate masters.
It apparently didn't bother Republicans that Sarah Palin's husband had been associated with an Alaska secessionist organization. That's an organization advocating secession from the United States NOW, not 150 years ago. And we're talking about the husband of someone who, had she been elected, would have been the proverbial heartbeat away from the presidency - in other words, they were saying they would have trusted her with the nuclear codes: a person who shouldn't by rights have passed a security clearance. So why should a little Confederate flag waving bother them?
9
Acts of secession and treason generally do not bother the GOP, as long as it is done by their guys.
Lincoln rolls in his grave this week.
Lincoln rolls in his grave this week.
6
Getting rid of the flag is very, very simple. Knowing that people will always choose the green flag they can stick in their wallet over the rag currently flying atop its mast while our National Flag flies at half mast.
Use economic sanctions. Send an email to the hotel in S.C. where you were planning to stay and explain why you plans have changes.
Send an email to that Bed and Breakfast stating that you won't be going there until that rag is removed.
If you are the CEO of a company, inform the Chamber of Commerce of S.C. that you will no longer have conventions or business functions in S.C. until the rag is removed.
If you are a tourist. Go visit another state. North Carolina is Beautiful. I recommend Ashville, the Biltmore. Kitty Hawk is History! And let S.C.'s Tourism Department know how sorry you are to have changed your plans to visit and why you did it.
Heck, even if you never intended to set foot out there, send an email to all these places telling them that you were planning on visiting and spending your U.S. Dollars but just can't agree with seeing that rag flying high on that post and anyway, you do not have Confederate States Of America Dollars.
Now, see how quickly the powers that be in S.C. (businesses) scramble to have that rag taken down and put in its proper place, a museum.
Use economic sanctions. Send an email to the hotel in S.C. where you were planning to stay and explain why you plans have changes.
Send an email to that Bed and Breakfast stating that you won't be going there until that rag is removed.
If you are the CEO of a company, inform the Chamber of Commerce of S.C. that you will no longer have conventions or business functions in S.C. until the rag is removed.
If you are a tourist. Go visit another state. North Carolina is Beautiful. I recommend Ashville, the Biltmore. Kitty Hawk is History! And let S.C.'s Tourism Department know how sorry you are to have changed your plans to visit and why you did it.
Heck, even if you never intended to set foot out there, send an email to all these places telling them that you were planning on visiting and spending your U.S. Dollars but just can't agree with seeing that rag flying high on that post and anyway, you do not have Confederate States Of America Dollars.
Now, see how quickly the powers that be in S.C. (businesses) scramble to have that rag taken down and put in its proper place, a museum.
19
The Confederate flag that is offensive is a blue collar symbol of racist hate. But the flag has more meaning than that. To Southerners of more sophistication, it symbolizes what they consider a heroic battle for regional hegemony. Robert E. Lee is a Southern icon who is seldom sullied by the ugliness of slavery. The flag is a tribute to Lee and his ilk and to countless soldiers who died in the war. The better arguments don't address the flag as a blue collar symbol -- that has no meaningful political support. The more difficult question is whether hundreds of thousands of Southern soldiers can be honored with a flag or whether they are to be dismissed as emissaries of an evil empire.
1
And the sad truth, of course, is that Lee was a traitor who could have been rightly hung for treason.
He was also not a moral man, refusing to acknowledge the fundamental ugliness of his bloody quest.
He was also not a moral man, refusing to acknowledge the fundamental ugliness of his bloody quest.
No flag, no honor?
False dichotomy. Utter mishegas.
False dichotomy. Utter mishegas.
Blue collar symbol or not - the flag's display legitimizes the hateful feelings of many. As others have said the Swastika flag can also be seen as a symbol to the many who died in the war. But let's not forget in either case what system they died for. Southern soldiers can be honored without the representation of a flag - not belonging to the United States.
1
Maybe the confederate flag should fly - as a warning. It would be similar to flying the yellow jack flag notifying others of contagious infections present.
If you do see it, stay away. Stay far away.
If you do see it, stay away. Stay far away.
5
Perfect! The star spangled banner of the emerging Feral Republic of North America.
1
Ludicrous! There is no Southern Strategy in the Republican Party of President Lincoln, the Union, which sustains the emblem of the defeated Confederacy - the Confederate States of America. South Carolina has one state flag. Fire, arrest, prosecute the mal-feasors who denigrated the state of South Carolina by raising a foul emblem over her capitol. The CSA, the Confederacy of the South SHALL NOT rise again. Nor shall a symbol of preservation of racial enslavement be raised to be-soil the costly humanizing lessons of the Civil War. That flag stood for slavery, and anti-constitutional neo-feudalism. And Republicans tread softly on the issue? Cowards if they do.
3
Sen McCain used to be one of the finest US Senators and will always be a war hero. That said, his comments on the terrorist strike at Emanuel AME church in Charleston ring hollow when viewed in the context of his unceasing attacks on our first African-American US President beginning shortly after he lost the election. While he does have legitimate issues on which to disagree with and even attack the President, his sometimes angry rants against him seem more to do with the President being African-American rather than issue-based.
7
How heartwarming to see these candidates asked the question by various media talking heads from the time of the shooting through the Sunday talk shows. However, as usual, these "Americans" were allowed to perform their oh so common rhetorical statements with little questioning or any real effort to make them commit to the basis of what that flag represents!
We speak of the atrocity and the causes and the healing, but where our nation is stuck is not as much with the issues, but with the press not doing it's job in making supposedly responsible people who are running for the presidency of the US, not take a stand publicly on this and so many other important issues of our time. We just cannot seem to get it that unless the press assumes its responsibility as not only messenger, but also in some ways, arbitrator, these horrific events will continue to occur. This extends to the discussions regarding climate change, to voting rights, to corporations becoming people; aggressive reporting is the foundation of any possible democracy!
We speak of the atrocity and the causes and the healing, but where our nation is stuck is not as much with the issues, but with the press not doing it's job in making supposedly responsible people who are running for the presidency of the US, not take a stand publicly on this and so many other important issues of our time. We just cannot seem to get it that unless the press assumes its responsibility as not only messenger, but also in some ways, arbitrator, these horrific events will continue to occur. This extends to the discussions regarding climate change, to voting rights, to corporations becoming people; aggressive reporting is the foundation of any possible democracy!
6
Very well said!
The swastika is part of the German "heritage" whether they like it or not. The "stars and bars" is likewise the "heritage" of a history no one should in the least bit be proud of. Neither flag should ever be flown, anywhere.
10
The heritage of the Confederacy is that they owned slaves, they are proud of that fact and would like to return to those days. It is also quite clear that the Republican candidates for president either support a return to a slave society, or are so power hungry and lack any sort of morality that they would rather be silent about the ownership of slaves and the symbol that represents it and get elected than to stand up and shout "No this is wrong and the flag must must go."
6
Why is it RepubliCAN?
How about RepubliCAN'T (as in doing anything morally correct)?
How about RepubliCAN'T (as in doing anything morally correct)?
2
As long as the media continues to focus on racism and guns instead of mental illness, these kinds of shootings will continue.
1
Wrong. There will always be crazy people, but even crazy people are constrained by the accepted standards of the society in which they live. When racism and the indiscriminant distribution of firearms are accepted norms, than society is simply giving the crazy people a free pass to follow their delusions.
8
This guy--the shooter--wasn't mentally ill.
He was angry.
And he was able to get a gun and express his anger.
That's the whole point.
If guns made people safer (as the NRA and others who are wrongfully like-minded love to say) the US would be the safest developed country in the world.
Guess what?
We ain't.
Our violent crime rate (involving guns) is through the roof compared to England, Germany, Australia, etc.
So enough with the pro-gun propaganda.
Fewer guns means a safer society.
Period.
He was angry.
And he was able to get a gun and express his anger.
That's the whole point.
If guns made people safer (as the NRA and others who are wrongfully like-minded love to say) the US would be the safest developed country in the world.
Guess what?
We ain't.
Our violent crime rate (involving guns) is through the roof compared to England, Germany, Australia, etc.
So enough with the pro-gun propaganda.
Fewer guns means a safer society.
Period.
3
Exactly!
Slavery thrived and was protected under the stars and stripes for far longer than the stars and bars of the four year experiment of the Confederacy.
2
Saying that the Confederate flag is part of your heritage is quite similar to saying that the Nazi flag is part of your heritage. This is factually true but morally repellent. Take it down.
17
Flags don't kill people -- Guns kill people.
1
The ideology BEHIND that flag provides the impetus to place the bullets- IN THE GUN-to shoot people-lynch people-bomb churches- spew daily hatred and find like-minded souls and sympathizers.
2
What elephant?
5
Boycotting SC is an interesting idea...anybody willing to give up their BMW? If corps like BMW and the hotel industry feel the pinch, things might change quickly.
5
Politically opportunistic cowards all, except Mitt Romney, who of course is not a candidate.
7
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross". No truer words were ever said of the GOP. Maybe we need to add the word "gun" too.
12
This circle cannot be squared, You either support publicly revering a symbol of treason and slavery or you don't. Whatever one's position, at least have the courage and stand up and declare it. Hillary finally gets a point, as for the othes, um ... not so much.
5
It's amazing that Southern conservatives would hold on to a legacy as losers! Spoiler alert: the Confederate States lost the Civil War!!!!
8
I see no difference between the Confederate flag and the Swastika flag of Nazi Germany.
10
I am not suprised to see the inspiration for Roof is a republican donor. What party do you think attracts racists, I'll give you a hint, it begins with an R.
11
The flag does not need to be removed. BUT, another flag honoring the roles played by African Americans needs to be flown right next to it. What could possibly be wrong with that?
2
Tim Scott is waiting until the grieving is over to make a statement on the confederate flag??? He's just stalling to try to come up with a way to say he supports the flag that somehow doesn't expose him as the mealy-mouthed accessory to South Carolina's ugly traditions.
Word to Tim: the people who love that flag hate black people, or didn't you notice? The haters didn't put you in the Senate, and they'll be happy to see you and "your kind" go.
Word to Tim: the people who love that flag hate black people, or didn't you notice? The haters didn't put you in the Senate, and they'll be happy to see you and "your kind" go.
11
Is Bobby Jindal too stupid, too foolish, or just too dishonest to recognize that under apartheid he would be denied the right to accommodation, to vote and freedom to live or work where he pleased? He couldn't use the sidewalks.
And what is that flag a symbol of today Bobby?
And what is that flag a symbol of today Bobby?
9
One begins to wonder whether the repetition of this story in column 1, page 1 of the "Times" isn't a scarcely concealed attack on any and all GOP candidates. It appears to create an association, more, an unbreakable link between the issue of the Confederate flag and the hideous racist murders in Charleston with the Republican brand. Of course the confederate flag should come down. The flag of traitors and an emblem of white supremacy has no place anywhere in America on any government building. Further, it makes an ugly statement wherever it flies. To raise the question once, and forcefully, is appropriate. GOP candidates need to respond to the question of the flag and the larger questions it raises. Fair enough. But maintain it as a leitmotif is to use it as part of a clearly partisan political project, and that is simply wrong.
3
Of course, it is. Judging from the way the flag has eclipsed the murders as the source of the left's outrage, it was well done. Now come the "links" to the group and the GOP. The "racism" charges are always ready to find their object.
Politician's behavior regarding this issue falls along clear partisan lines. What about the article do you find inaccurate or misleading? Do you think there's a reason why Republican politicians might be hesitant to take a stand? Perhaps a base made up of ignorant yahoos?
2
Well, it's rather telling that white supremacists in the US tend to vote Republican and are supporting the most extreme candidates, is it not? Surely that is news that ought to be trumpeted, loudly and often- if you are a conservative Republican, the candidates you like are the candidates of choice of some other people with exceptionally heinous views. Are you* sure you don't want to reconsider your support, given that truth? Maybe they know something you don't about the policies and ideologies of those candidates.
*Generic you, not you particularly, Dr. Svetistephen
*Generic you, not you particularly, Dr. Svetistephen
1
GOP is the party of the past. They are trying to hold on to the racist past at the same time trying (halfheartly) to court new minority votes. They do not understand that haters and the hated do not want to be co-exist under the same party. I laugh at the cowardly GOP candidates who has to wait for their handlers or the media response to know what to say. What a bunch of clowns.
8
"And like some of their predecessors seeking to win the state’s primary, the first in the South, the leading Republican candidates for 2016 are treading delicately. They do not want to risk offending the conservative white voters who venerate the most recognizable emblem of the Confederacy and who say it is a symbol of their heritage."
Yes, it does limit your options when you take as your constituents certain small segments of the population, rather than the public overall. The GOP may talk all it likes about "broadening its tent," but on both social and economic issues, we can see quite clearly where they stand: with regressive out-of-date attitudes about ethnic groups, women, LGBT people, and with the tiny economic elite (1 %). If you have to ponder whether slavery should be celebrated or condemned, you should just stay home - don't run for president.
Yes, it does limit your options when you take as your constituents certain small segments of the population, rather than the public overall. The GOP may talk all it likes about "broadening its tent," but on both social and economic issues, we can see quite clearly where they stand: with regressive out-of-date attitudes about ethnic groups, women, LGBT people, and with the tiny economic elite (1 %). If you have to ponder whether slavery should be celebrated or condemned, you should just stay home - don't run for president.
2
Rep. Brannon is the only Republican I have read about in this senseless tragedy that has a heart and a soul. His statement about being ashamed that he did not introduce a bill earlier to remove the racist flag of oppression is the only honest thing I have heard the lot of them say. Please inform the losers that clinging to the flag that represents staggering failure on every front is not a path forward.
1
I always find it amusing how northern liberals like to bloviate how the South is a bunch of redneck racists, still desiring segregation. Have you taken notice how southerners handle tragedies like what happened in Charleston. Do you see people rioting and demanding justice, no, instead you see people joining together in prayer for healing. Cities like New York, Chicago and Boston are some of the most racially segregated cities on the planet. Only in places like New York, Baltimore, St. Louis and Oakland do you see people rioting and looting and burning in fits of rage. So, who are the ignorant ones ?
You are creating a false equivalency sir.
1
Tut-tutters who decry "demeaning justice" as unseemly are the ones I consider ignorant. Thanks for asking - have a blessed day!
Sorry - make that "demanding" justice. My error.
Imagine being a grieving relative of one of the church victims walking into Charleston County Courthouse for the trial of Dylann Roof, where flying high and proud is the Confederate flag. How about the family of Walter Scott, killed by a policeman in North Charleston? Would the flag inspire confidence the cases will be adjudicated fairly?
1
The main point is "yes" this flag is a nasty symbol (history or not) and it should be taken down. It is offensive to many people and it does not represent the United States of America today. A Confederate flag does not represent "unity" of any sort.
2
My understanding of the civil war had to do with the south wanting to protect the business of slavery and seceding from the union. Why South Carolina would want to remind everyone of that war which was fought for bad values and that the South is somehow not part of overall America- beats me. If you want to honor the soldiers who fought that war, hang the flag from your individual homes in the south. That would be freedom of speech as individual expression not institutional acknowledgement that only helps to perpetuate the idea of white values over black society. Symbols are powerful things and any society should be aware of what they represent. The swastika is a good example! Even though German soldiers lost their lives in that war, we don't see the swastika flown next to the German flag. Why is that?
65
Because the Germans learned from their mistake. Germany is one of the most democratic societies in the free world, yet it is against the law to display or even own symbols of the Third Reich. The Germans understand the power of the hateful symbols of their past; maybe we could learn from them.
1
Exactly. Southerners are always claiming they need this flag to remind them of their heritage. A mint julep and some pulled pork should do the trick. The flag should go.
The swastika is not flown in Germany because the symbol was outlawed after World War II. It can only be used as a Buddhist, Hindu or Jain religious symbol. Otherwise, it is illegal to use the swastika in any form in Germany.
1
Saying that this decision is up to the state of South Carolina is ridiculous and cowardly. The state of Bavaria cannot opt to fly the swastika while Hanover does not. The confederate flag is no different and it should be illegal to display it anywhere - period! Put the damn thing in a museum.
3
In 2015, at its core, the confederate flag is neither a political or constitutional issue. It is a civility issue, a common decency, a showing of core beliefs and values detector.
It is a sign of hatred, of danger, of psychological intimidation, of supremacy and it actually allows us, we who do not live with the “If then, go to hatred” logarithm within, the variable preceding in this case of course is African American/Black, to see exactly who these flag flying folks are, how they think, what they are more than likely capable of and what supremacist belief(s) lives and lingers always in the recesses of their minds.
In the most callous of ways it serves as a statement, that if you are black and if you do x, I will find or fabricate a way and reason to harm you.
I wish pedophiles flew a flag. I wish rapists, murderers across the board, domestic abusers and many others all had one too.
If we step out of the ideology and begin flipping these things the landscape and the shift in power aligns with what is right and good. Not what I say is “right” but what the divine says is so.
Emotional and mental intimidation on a human to human basis is/should be punishable and that’s the only way anything can ever first be experienced, one human to another, secondary to a group, culture and race.
Break it down. Every single person go to an authority, an attorney and file a mental/emotional intimidation complaint and let’s see what happens. It might be really good. Step away from ideology.
It is a sign of hatred, of danger, of psychological intimidation, of supremacy and it actually allows us, we who do not live with the “If then, go to hatred” logarithm within, the variable preceding in this case of course is African American/Black, to see exactly who these flag flying folks are, how they think, what they are more than likely capable of and what supremacist belief(s) lives and lingers always in the recesses of their minds.
In the most callous of ways it serves as a statement, that if you are black and if you do x, I will find or fabricate a way and reason to harm you.
I wish pedophiles flew a flag. I wish rapists, murderers across the board, domestic abusers and many others all had one too.
If we step out of the ideology and begin flipping these things the landscape and the shift in power aligns with what is right and good. Not what I say is “right” but what the divine says is so.
Emotional and mental intimidation on a human to human basis is/should be punishable and that’s the only way anything can ever first be experienced, one human to another, secondary to a group, culture and race.
Break it down. Every single person go to an authority, an attorney and file a mental/emotional intimidation complaint and let’s see what happens. It might be really good. Step away from ideology.
In Europe not only would it be unthinkable for someone to fly or display the NAZI flag or any other NAZI symbol in any manner, but in many places it is a criminal offense to deny that the holocaust occurred or make other inflammatory statements regarding that horrific tragedy (some may argue that this goes too far).
By the logic of those that support keeping the flag raised (or using it on license plates, or hanging it outside their homes), why wouldn't it be acceptable Germany to hang the NAZI flag on public buildings, or outside their homes, or on their car license plates as recognition and nostalgic remembrance of their past heritage without this being seen as supporting or glorifying hatred, or extermination, of the Jewish people?
I would like to directly ask those politicians that say they "understand" the position of the Confederate flag supporters whether they would also support or understand a German person that held the same views with regard tot he NAZI flag, and if not, why not (same goes for the Confederate flag supports on this site)
I also find it interesting that certain Republicans, who are supposed to be so patriotic and protective of "American values", can understand and tacitly support a flag that, aside from its racist overtones, symbolizes the most obvious and destructive example of treason and treachery against the United States, the war in which more American lives were lost than in any other war.
By the logic of those that support keeping the flag raised (or using it on license plates, or hanging it outside their homes), why wouldn't it be acceptable Germany to hang the NAZI flag on public buildings, or outside their homes, or on their car license plates as recognition and nostalgic remembrance of their past heritage without this being seen as supporting or glorifying hatred, or extermination, of the Jewish people?
I would like to directly ask those politicians that say they "understand" the position of the Confederate flag supporters whether they would also support or understand a German person that held the same views with regard tot he NAZI flag, and if not, why not (same goes for the Confederate flag supports on this site)
I also find it interesting that certain Republicans, who are supposed to be so patriotic and protective of "American values", can understand and tacitly support a flag that, aside from its racist overtones, symbolizes the most obvious and destructive example of treason and treachery against the United States, the war in which more American lives were lost than in any other war.
4
It's only fitting that the problem of whether to display the flag or not has come home to roost with the Republican Party. Democrats are not ambivalent; the vast majority of us want it to be taken down, and have for years. Republicans have resisted. Of course, racially bigoted whites are a significant part of the Republican base, so the challenge for Republicans is to coach their comments in such a way as to keep bigots in the fold while not alienating non-whites.
This disgusting flag is an outdated, in-your-face reminder to Blacks what the Confederacy fought for in the war. There may be some things to be proud of in the South, but the flag isn't one of them. Neither are the streets named after Confederate officers.
To the South, I say, "You lost. Deal with it. It's time to move on."
This disgusting flag is an outdated, in-your-face reminder to Blacks what the Confederacy fought for in the war. There may be some things to be proud of in the South, but the flag isn't one of them. Neither are the streets named after Confederate officers.
To the South, I say, "You lost. Deal with it. It's time to move on."
4
The Republicans have blood on their hands!
7
It is no surprise that the North and the South see the Civil War so differently. Aside from the soldiers that suffered on both sides, the citizens of the north were relatively untouched by the hardship of war and they considered the war over in 1865. The south was brutalized by hardships and Sherman during the war years and further mistreated during reconstruction. It wasn’t until the economic impact and mobility of WWII that the agrarian south could say that the Civil War was really over.
Believe it or not, for a lot of white southerners the Confederate battle flag doesn’t represent slavery or racism but a battle against an intrusive federal government. The resentments of mistreatment by the U.S. government were carried well into the twentieth century and many southerners today were raised by those who held those views. The passage of time is erasing these animosities with every generation so there is hope for tomorrow.
We can see in the Mideast conflicts that family and tribal hatreds can last for hundreds or even thousands of years. It is not surprising that the Civil War is not forgotten in the South.
Believe it or not, for a lot of white southerners the Confederate battle flag doesn’t represent slavery or racism but a battle against an intrusive federal government. The resentments of mistreatment by the U.S. government were carried well into the twentieth century and many southerners today were raised by those who held those views. The passage of time is erasing these animosities with every generation so there is hope for tomorrow.
We can see in the Mideast conflicts that family and tribal hatreds can last for hundreds or even thousands of years. It is not surprising that the Civil War is not forgotten in the South.
2
Please, stop.
The idea that the Civil War was not first, foremost, and 100% about the rights of slave-holders is an argument that has been dispelled time and time again.
There is NO factual basis for it.
The assault on Federal troops in Charleston was about keeping the right to own slaves and expand slavery.
End of story.
The idea that the Civil War was not first, foremost, and 100% about the rights of slave-holders is an argument that has been dispelled time and time again.
There is NO factual basis for it.
The assault on Federal troops in Charleston was about keeping the right to own slaves and expand slavery.
End of story.
Don't forget that the Civil War was found because the South wanted to preserve slavery. Alexander Stephens' cornerstone speech at the founding of the Confederacy said it was because black people were not equal to whites, and therefore were supposed to be slaves. The South rebelled against the United States, and hundreds of thousands of Union soldiers died as well. Plantation economy and slaves were at the heart of the Civil War as everyone admitted at the time.
If there is any doubt about what that flag stands for look, apart form South Carolina's statehouse grounds, at where it's displayed.
You'll find it on the back windows of vehicles along with something about guns and "cold, dead hands." Every armed-to-the-teeth, racist, anti-Catholic, anti-Jewish, and otherwise dangerous, treasonous and clownish militia-group has one prominently displayed.
It's on the leather coats of many a lawless outlaw, drug-running and gun-running motorcycle group. It's proudly displayed by lone-wolf, racists who are consumed with hate and, thanks to the Republican Party, well-armed as well.
They are all ticking time-bombs waiting to go off and, I have to say, abetted by the Republicans who, in this time in our nation's history, are a bunch of cowards who allow these tragedies to continue.
You'll find it on the back windows of vehicles along with something about guns and "cold, dead hands." Every armed-to-the-teeth, racist, anti-Catholic, anti-Jewish, and otherwise dangerous, treasonous and clownish militia-group has one prominently displayed.
It's on the leather coats of many a lawless outlaw, drug-running and gun-running motorcycle group. It's proudly displayed by lone-wolf, racists who are consumed with hate and, thanks to the Republican Party, well-armed as well.
They are all ticking time-bombs waiting to go off and, I have to say, abetted by the Republicans who, in this time in our nation's history, are a bunch of cowards who allow these tragedies to continue.
14
I listened to the recording of the families of the murder victims in S.C. telling the murderer of their pain, and their forgiveness of him in the name of something larger than the values of this world.
What values do these candidates claim to espouse as they dissemble and evade and bluff and refuse to repudiate this flag, a symbol that now only means one thing and one thing only: hatred.
May the families of the murder victims teach these hypocrites something about authentic, radical forgiveness and love.
What values do these candidates claim to espouse as they dissemble and evade and bluff and refuse to repudiate this flag, a symbol that now only means one thing and one thing only: hatred.
May the families of the murder victims teach these hypocrites something about authentic, radical forgiveness and love.
9
To Mr. Graham,
You've got it backwards, Mr. Graham. The flag is associated with the shooter. The flag is part of a culture that nourishes people like Dylann Roof and others.
Read about the research done by Philip Zimbardo at Stanford about the effect of systems on the individuals within them. Fox news, the NRA, Republicans, and others create a culture, a system, that empowers people receptive to its message. Broadcast fear and diviseness to win campaigns; reap the whirlwind.
Mr. Graham -- you and others made Dylann Roof possible. He is you and you are he.
You've got it backwards, Mr. Graham. The flag is associated with the shooter. The flag is part of a culture that nourishes people like Dylann Roof and others.
Read about the research done by Philip Zimbardo at Stanford about the effect of systems on the individuals within them. Fox news, the NRA, Republicans, and others create a culture, a system, that empowers people receptive to its message. Broadcast fear and diviseness to win campaigns; reap the whirlwind.
Mr. Graham -- you and others made Dylann Roof possible. He is you and you are he.
12
Why would anyone want to fly this flag on a public building? Imagine Angela Merkel flying the swastika on the Reichstag in Berlin and saying "it represents part of our heritage".
19
The Republicans, originally the party of Lincoln, first abandoned the former slaves to the "mercy" of southern white supremacy at the end of Reconstruction after Grant left the presidency, becoming instead the party of big business. The transformation became complete as part of Nixon's "southern strategy" to woo southerners, erstwhile democrats resentful of the passage of the Voting Rights Act, to the Republican Party. Ever since, the Republican party has been the go to party for white supremacists who are doing what they can to put stumbling blocks in the way of blacks. This goes all the way from the "republican" dominated southern legislatures to the Republican- dominated Roberts Court, which recently gutted the Voting Rights Act. So of course, these Republican candidates by and large fail to see the truth about the Confederate battle flag, the symbol of the Jim Crow South long after the Civil War ended.
4
And do not forget the grand masters of strategic cynicism, with a smile: Ronald Reagan.
Following Nixon, Reagan was the most polarizing with respect to starting the 'our America' attitude.
Following Nixon, Reagan was the most polarizing with respect to starting the 'our America' attitude.
Republicans "should have tread carefully" before several of them, along with members of Congress willingly accepted donations from the white supermacist group. How will they backtrack on that ugly truth?
4
The unwillingness of any current GOP Presidential candidate to clearly call for the flag's removal is bringing the party closer to being the party of old white men,and few others.And not even all of us will support such racist enabling candidates.I'm 67 and white and consider the display of the Confederate flag a renunciation of U.S. citizenship.And because they symbolize white supremacy the "stars and bars " on that flag are our nation's equivalent to the swastika.So much for the GOP's post -2012 election "autopsy" noting it's need to reach out more effectively to African-Americans and other non whites.
Huckabee in continuing to insist that this just South Carolina's decision to make apparenly forgets he's running for a national office and that with by taking such position by itself loses any chance of being supported by a voter such as me " from outside the state of South Carolina.
Huckabee in continuing to insist that this just South Carolina's decision to make apparenly forgets he's running for a national office and that with by taking such position by itself loses any chance of being supported by a voter such as me " from outside the state of South Carolina.
It's not that they aren't saying anything about the Confederate flag flying over the South Carolina capitol, they've already made their positions very clear. When it comes to race they are snake-oil salesmen. Of course, the trouble with that is they live in the 21st century and not the 19th century, where there is no such thing as talking to a local crowd, saying what they want to hear, and knowing nobody else in the next town will hear them. They're stuck in the Catch-22 of trying to please their voters while a dozen microphones are shoved in their faces. Well, too bad. At this point, it's too late to say anything else about this. If they didn't call for the immediate removal of that symbol of hate, they are not fit to be the President of the United States. The campaign is over.
2
South Carolinians are right--it is a symbol of their heritage--it is their Heritage of Slavery and Racial Hatred. And when they spout "states' rights," that is exactly what it is code for--the right of the state to protect its symbol of its Heritage of Slavery and Racial Hatred, Do they really think we are idiots?
6
They think we're just like them. Make of that what you will.
That's also the dodgy premise behind the "liberal media" canard. Jesse Helms couldn't keep politics and journalism separate, so no one else must be able to either.
That's also the dodgy premise behind the "liberal media" canard. Jesse Helms couldn't keep politics and journalism separate, so no one else must be able to either.
Maybe the Legislature might also agree to a Bronz plaque at ever location/spot where an African-American was mob lynched along with the names of every S.C. elected offical who was a proud member of the KKK.
3
Funny how the Republicans just love those flags. They frame every argument and cause between a flag and a crucifix . They do it wether they are selling cars or wars. And since Nixon's "Southern Strategy" they've sorta/kinda embraced the Stars and Bars by code talking to the
lower common denominators and now they really can't back track without
inflaming a rather large base. I hope the pressure will kept on them in the upcoming debates to disown a symbol no American should be proud of and to distance themselves from those who are.
lower common denominators and now they really can't back track without
inflaming a rather large base. I hope the pressure will kept on them in the upcoming debates to disown a symbol no American should be proud of and to distance themselves from those who are.
5
What does it say about your party when you need to tread lightly, lest you offend racists?
11
How is this any different from flying a Nazi flag?
7
What would you say if some Lander in Germany decided to float the Nazi flag just because of free speech ? or because of some old memories of a foregone time ?
Yeah.... , and though it is very similar :
- there was a war fought and lost
- a side won, and part of the losers are nostalgic
- a lot of people were killed because of what they were, not what they did
- one difference is time : one was in the 18's the other one in the 19's
So if you look at it from afar : free speech is OK for the individual citizen, but for a State Capitol, it seems to me that no such things can be allowed, especially when you want to use symbols of targeted killings, being black people or jewish people in those two cases.
You cannot rewrite History over and over again just because you don't like how it went.
Deal with it. And look forward, not backward.
Yeah.... , and though it is very similar :
- there was a war fought and lost
- a side won, and part of the losers are nostalgic
- a lot of people were killed because of what they were, not what they did
- one difference is time : one was in the 18's the other one in the 19's
So if you look at it from afar : free speech is OK for the individual citizen, but for a State Capitol, it seems to me that no such things can be allowed, especially when you want to use symbols of targeted killings, being black people or jewish people in those two cases.
You cannot rewrite History over and over again just because you don't like how it went.
Deal with it. And look forward, not backward.
6
Lots of good comments about the 1962 flag as a symbol protesting the Civil Rights Act. How about a new flag or bumper sticker for all of us to protest that flag: "BOYCOTT SOUTH CAROLINA". Am sure many of us would be glad to display it to get their attention!
9
You don't see German-Americans flying the Nazi flag as 'a symbol of their heritage'. Take a hint, South Carolina.
9
Peter Mulvey wrote a powerful song calling on Charleston to "Take down your flag to half mast"; Ani DiFranco sang it at Clearwater yesterday. Seems like that would be something that lawmakers could call for too -- a little show of respect would go a long way. . . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=risegdmMVlg
1
This does it for me! GOP Presidential candidates who are ALL wishy-washy about an issue of a "Loser" flag symbol that has evolved in this country from some lost heritage to a symbol of slavery & racism & hate & evil. When you must tread "carefully" on such an obvious decision, then you have lost ALL courage & decency! Put the flag in a museum, where it belongs. If & when I see the Germans fly a swastika flag on a pole in Berlin all day long, then you will have some lunatic companions; but then the Germans are a lot smarter than South Carolinian politicians and the GOP.
19
You don't see it in Germany, because Germans do not have a Constitutional Right to Freedom of Speech.
They're such wusses. Not one of them has a backbone to stand up to what is right. It's all about lies and pandering. Hey GOP candidates - it's 2015. The 21st century. Wish you were here. That said, take the flag down and BURN IT!
8
Okay Mr. Jeb!, what say you?
3
Imagine Bavaria wanting to fly the Nazi flag at its capital....
Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean doing it is the right thing.
Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean doing it is the right thing.
5
I cannot BELIEVE this is actually an issue and that those who love that abomination of a flag are so cavalier in their responses to the issue stating: "I suppose maybe sorta someday kinda perhaps we could maybe I dunno revisit the issue and maybe sorta but NOT have a dialogue, cause it like totally is kinda super awesome". It stands for EVIL, period, and simply cannot be tolerated any longer. I think our country's black citizens have shown remarkable and superhuman restraint throughout the pile-up of issues and incidents over the last couple of years. I just drove from Texas to New York via Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, West Virginia, Kentucky & Virginia and saw that vile thing all over the place. We cannot continue to insult, disrepect and just plain let down our black brothers and sisters any longer. HOW is this not 100% clear?
9
Mr. Brannon said. “It took my buddy’s death to get me to do this. I should feel ashamed of myself.”
You certainly should feel ashamed of yourself, but do you? When you wave the flag of racists you support their right to hate and trumpet their history of violence. Anything for a vote.
You certainly should feel ashamed of yourself, but do you? When you wave the flag of racists you support their right to hate and trumpet their history of violence. Anything for a vote.
7
That egg on one's face can really stick sometimes. And in the hot sun, becomes unbearably itchy. Such is the price for waffling between what is right and being supportive of constituents with questionable priorities.
While no official poll has been taken nationwide, from all you see in expressed public opinions, the sense is that a majority of people find the Confederate Flag a relic of the pro-slavery era. Which means ACTIVELY FLYING IT is an insult to many. I'll bet if you poll only African Americans, you'll get a 95% or higher condemnation of this flag. This means... to paraphrase a Reagan quote: "Mr. Southerner, TAKE DOWN THAT FLAG!"
While no official poll has been taken nationwide, from all you see in expressed public opinions, the sense is that a majority of people find the Confederate Flag a relic of the pro-slavery era. Which means ACTIVELY FLYING IT is an insult to many. I'll bet if you poll only African Americans, you'll get a 95% or higher condemnation of this flag. This means... to paraphrase a Reagan quote: "Mr. Southerner, TAKE DOWN THAT FLAG!"
14
As an interested observer - the public opinions you refer to are those of the readership of the NYT and other big city newspapers and the black community. I'm not sure this applies all over the country. It makes me nervous, being someone who is neither black nor white, to see one segment of the population (12-15%, yes?) exert so much influence over the country - to the extent of defining acceptable police behavior, permissible language, the books our children are allowed to read in school, and the revision of history.
Freedom of speech does not correlate with polls or popularity contests.
I have no roots in the South. My ancestors came to the US 70 years after the Civil War and all settled in the Midwest. None ever owned slaves. I have no sympathy nor allegiance to Confederacy, and consider slavery an abomination against humanity.
But I also don't believe in censorship or thought control. I don't care what flag OTHER PEOPLE display -- not even a Nazi flag -- and I had ancestors who died in concentration camps.
I have no roots in the South. My ancestors came to the US 70 years after the Civil War and all settled in the Midwest. None ever owned slaves. I have no sympathy nor allegiance to Confederacy, and consider slavery an abomination against humanity.
But I also don't believe in censorship or thought control. I don't care what flag OTHER PEOPLE display -- not even a Nazi flag -- and I had ancestors who died in concentration camps.
• David H. Wilkins, a Republican former speaker of the State House who played a critical role in brokering the compromise to take the flag off the Capitol dome, said CORPORATE EXECUTIVES would start a dialogue about the flag.*
A flag for the 1%!
"Corporate executives"??? How about the state's elected officials?!? What's their role? Is South Carolina a "corporatist" state"?
"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act." ~ DIETRICH BONHOEFER (1906 – 1945) German Lutheran pastor, theologian, anti-Nazi dissident.
* EMPHASIS mine
** Corporate statism or state corporatism is a political culture and a form of corporatism whose adherents hold that the corporate group is the basis of society is the state.
A flag for the 1%!
"Corporate executives"??? How about the state's elected officials?!? What's their role? Is South Carolina a "corporatist" state"?
"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act." ~ DIETRICH BONHOEFER (1906 – 1945) German Lutheran pastor, theologian, anti-Nazi dissident.
* EMPHASIS mine
** Corporate statism or state corporatism is a political culture and a form of corporatism whose adherents hold that the corporate group is the basis of society is the state.
18
The proverbial Man from Mars would find it strange that, 150 years after the Civil War, Americans still argue as to whether it’s “appropriate” for the Flag of the side that lost the Civil War to be flown from a State Capital. (I thought they had placed the Flag in a Garden.)
The South lost, and the Confederate Flag, a symbol of Slavery, should be relegated to a Museum. It took Germany no time to stop giving the Nazi Swastika any respect in Germany.
It’s somewhat inexplicable to see most Republican Candidates trip all over themselves and twist themselves into knots over the “Confederate Flag Issue”. Just as Republicans were initially very slow to call Dylann Storm Roof (is that a real name?) a White Racist, even as they claim it’s hard for President Obama to utter the words “Islamic Terrorism”. All the evidence, in what he wrote, points to Roof being a “Racist” who hated Black people, and not someone who was just out “to attack Christians”.
BTW, I am typing this while I’m being White and while I’m being a Born-Again Christian.
Of course, there is always that percentage of Southerners who think that the “South will rise again”, and want to refight the Civil War. Imagine if the South had “won” and Slavery had continued into the 20th and 21st Centuries? It boggles the mind.
The South lost, and the Confederate Flag, a symbol of Slavery, should be relegated to a Museum. It took Germany no time to stop giving the Nazi Swastika any respect in Germany.
It’s somewhat inexplicable to see most Republican Candidates trip all over themselves and twist themselves into knots over the “Confederate Flag Issue”. Just as Republicans were initially very slow to call Dylann Storm Roof (is that a real name?) a White Racist, even as they claim it’s hard for President Obama to utter the words “Islamic Terrorism”. All the evidence, in what he wrote, points to Roof being a “Racist” who hated Black people, and not someone who was just out “to attack Christians”.
BTW, I am typing this while I’m being White and while I’m being a Born-Again Christian.
Of course, there is always that percentage of Southerners who think that the “South will rise again”, and want to refight the Civil War. Imagine if the South had “won” and Slavery had continued into the 20th and 21st Centuries? It boggles the mind.
25
Don't bother boggling your mind. Slavery would have ended before long due to economic factors including steam machinery coming to the farms.
Pandering to white bigots while trying to appear statesman-like to minorities is not working. It looks as fake as it is.
44
I think perhaps you overestimate the distinction between said "statesmen" and the white bigots they pander to. I see no reason to suspect these particular statesmen disagree with the white bigots. After all they take donations from white supremacist groups.
This is a fit issue for a referendum. The results may well surprise everyone, not least the republicans.
12
Indeed, I think you will be surprised how many want to keep it, which would be very educational to those who want to believe the "good people" of South Carolina will ever do the right thing on their own accord.
1
The result would surprise because this moral issue is not a fit one for a popularity contest.