It's just amazing how the right can be so hypocritical. They are the same one who argues about second amendment rights and also the same who have rushed through crazy laws like open carry law in Ohio. Yet here they all come to justify the killing of a 12 year old black boy who was openly carrying a toy gun. How outrageous can these people get.
3
Which is it? It's been reported both as a "toy" and as a "pellet" or "bebe" gun.
The officer murdered a twelve year old. What kind of human being does that?
1
The equivalent of this case medically would be a trained surgeon having been told you had a mass in your belly by the hospital clerk (who also states the mass may or may not be there) rushes you into laparoscopic surgery without investigation (physical exam, ultrasound, CT scan, blood count, blood chemistry etc) then blindly and with excessive force and without the due care involved in the procedure kills you by pushing the trochar into your aorta. Your sister realizing what has happened and is running towards the OR is violently tackled and cuffed by the hospital police.
We would never tolerate this degree of negligence by Doctors, Nurses, Firefighters or other professions that deal with life and death. Why do we tolerate this from trained police officers.
We would never tolerate this degree of negligence by Doctors, Nurses, Firefighters or other professions that deal with life and death. Why do we tolerate this from trained police officers.
1
This was a tragedy, no doubt. But this 12 year old child was 5 foot 9 inches and weighed 195 pounds. The dispatcher that sent the police did not indicate anything other than they received a call that someone with a gun (not toy gun, but gun) was in the park pointing it at people.
The dispatcher should be investigated for withholding all the details, details that are pretty critical when talking about 'someone with a gun.'
I'm not saying that the police didn't over react, but when driving up on a person waving and pointing a gun who weighs 195 pounds (and you are responding to a 911 call from residents that are afraid) what would you do in the blink of an eye?
The dispatcher should be investigated for withholding all the details, details that are pretty critical when talking about 'someone with a gun.'
I'm not saying that the police didn't over react, but when driving up on a person waving and pointing a gun who weighs 195 pounds (and you are responding to a 911 call from residents that are afraid) what would you do in the blink of an eye?
3
Probably the only way to get control over misconduct by law enforcement officers is for communities to have wholly independent citizen review boards with full jurisdiction over all law enforcement departments and personnel operating in the community. This should include the power to empanel grand juries, file charges, and order district attorneys to vigorously prosecute these cases.
2
According to some of the comments, the Judge in question is Black. Is that true? The Time's article makes no mention of the Judge's race, which seems a little odd since the race of the "victim" (and usually the cop) is always mentioned, here and in other shootings. Please clarify.
3
How can there be any doubt in the mind of the prosecutor - after viewing the video - that there is probable cause to prosecute?
Why does a grand jury need to be involved, and how is it possible that it took seven months, and the prosecutor is still asking for more time.
Nobody is asking the prosecutor to convict the officers without due process, but there can be no question in the mind of a reasonable person who saw the video that there is probable cause to charge the officers and that there has to be a trial.
Why does a grand jury need to be involved, and how is it possible that it took seven months, and the prosecutor is still asking for more time.
Nobody is asking the prosecutor to convict the officers without due process, but there can be no question in the mind of a reasonable person who saw the video that there is probable cause to charge the officers and that there has to be a trial.
A pure police execution of a young boy. Those officers should hang.
The cops really didn't have a choice but to fire when they did under the circumstances that they found themselves, in Cleveland's most dangerous neighborhood. I suppose that the judge feared if he issued a ruling that would further anger the irrational mob, supported as it is by the president and his AG office which has demonstrated eagerness in shutting down municipalities and taking scalps at the beckoning of this roving, permanent mob. Let's hope that the prosecutor and grand jurists display courage.
This kid's parents are delinquent criminals with no work histories. The mother is a drug dealer.
This kid's parents are delinquent criminals with no work histories. The mother is a drug dealer.
3
This article states that Tamir Rice was "playing in a park” when, in fact, he'd actually been pointing a realistic-looking toy gun at people on the sidewalk, including an older black woman who was obviously very scared (in the 10-minute long videotape of the incident released by the City, you could clearly see the old woman’s reaction---they’ve since “greyed-out” her image, I guess to protect her privacy).
This poor woman is one of the victims the NYT doesn't care to talk about: The people who live in crime-filled neighborhoods & have to deal every day with random & senseless gunfire and violence -- this time the gun was fake, most times they are not. According to the 911 transcript, the caller, who sounds like an older black man, told the operator: "The guy keeps pulling it out. It's probably fake, but you know what, he's scaring the (expletive) out of (inaudible). ... He's sitting on the swing right now, but he keeps pulling it in and out of his pants and pointing it at people…..”
This article also fails to mention that the 911 operator did NOT tell the cops that the caller said the gun might be fake & that the person might be a juvenile. So the cops thought they were responding to another one of the numerous violent gun incidents that plague that neighborhood.
No, I'm not blaming Tamir. I'm providing sorely lacking context.
Full video:
http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/cleveland/2014/11/26/tamir-rice-sho...
This poor woman is one of the victims the NYT doesn't care to talk about: The people who live in crime-filled neighborhoods & have to deal every day with random & senseless gunfire and violence -- this time the gun was fake, most times they are not. According to the 911 transcript, the caller, who sounds like an older black man, told the operator: "The guy keeps pulling it out. It's probably fake, but you know what, he's scaring the (expletive) out of (inaudible). ... He's sitting on the swing right now, but he keeps pulling it in and out of his pants and pointing it at people…..”
This article also fails to mention that the 911 operator did NOT tell the cops that the caller said the gun might be fake & that the person might be a juvenile. So the cops thought they were responding to another one of the numerous violent gun incidents that plague that neighborhood.
No, I'm not blaming Tamir. I'm providing sorely lacking context.
Full video:
http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/cleveland/2014/11/26/tamir-rice-sho...
5
"Justice delayed is Justice Denied."
7 months after the fact of a killing by police of a child in a park seen repeatedly ad nauseous across the world and the prosecutor's office responds to a judge's conclusion with a "terse statement" indicating that Prosecutor McGinty would not be rushed into filing a criminal complaint."
7+ months as a time frame is a fraudulent and obscene definition of the term "rushed into filing" in a case like this. There is no preplanned conspiracy. There is no underlying cause requiring tedious investigation. The only thing that could take this much time is constructing a conspiracy to attempt to obstruct justice.
No wonder this nation has a problem that is about to explode. Do we have to repeat the riots of the 60s to get things fixed in this country.
As astronauts might say looking down on us from on high: Houston, America has a problem. And as with the Apollo mission that went bad fast, the problem is a lot more severe than that terse but simple statement implies.
7 months after the fact of a killing by police of a child in a park seen repeatedly ad nauseous across the world and the prosecutor's office responds to a judge's conclusion with a "terse statement" indicating that Prosecutor McGinty would not be rushed into filing a criminal complaint."
7+ months as a time frame is a fraudulent and obscene definition of the term "rushed into filing" in a case like this. There is no preplanned conspiracy. There is no underlying cause requiring tedious investigation. The only thing that could take this much time is constructing a conspiracy to attempt to obstruct justice.
No wonder this nation has a problem that is about to explode. Do we have to repeat the riots of the 60s to get things fixed in this country.
As astronauts might say looking down on us from on high: Houston, America has a problem. And as with the Apollo mission that went bad fast, the problem is a lot more severe than that terse but simple statement implies.
3
You can almost understand the shooting, fear and adrenaline affecting reason, but the standing by and not offering any first aid while a child lies dying, that is chilling. And it's happened in nearly every one of these cases. It's as if it's not a human being lying there. So telling of the policemen's disregard for their lives.
1
Even with this latest small victory, even with comments from police officers themselves saying this was "reckless and negligent", even with the video that directly refuted the police officers report; I'm not confident that the grand jury will return with an indictment to move to trial.
How sad is this state of affairs?
How sad is this state of affairs?
6
If the prosecutor, Mr. McGinty, could not imagine himself the father of a child that this happened to, and is not able to find a way to prosecute these officers, allowing them to get off scott free, this prosecutor should be looking for a different profession.
Tamir Rice did nothing wrong and is dead - because of these officers. If not for them, this boy would still be playing freely instead of laying in a grave.
Tamir Rice did nothing wrong and is dead - because of these officers. If not for them, this boy would still be playing freely instead of laying in a grave.
8
I have more questions.
1) Is Timothy Loehmann still an armed police officer in Cleveland, Ohio?
2) Who manufactured and profited from the sale of the "toy gun?"
3) (Hypothetical) Does anyone think or believe that Tamir Rice would have been gunned down by these officers if he was a 12 year old white child?
Charging the police officers with murder would be a "giant leap" toward change, but will it end up solving the problems that lead to Tamir's tragic death? Maybe we could take other steps in Ohio?
Can our civic leaders in the city of Cleveland assure us that they have removed the gun from Loehmann's holster? Would the NRA be opposed if a legislator in the state of Ohio proposed a law that only allowed the sale of facsimile "toy" weapons in bright orange and green colors? Could some intrepid university researcher in Ohio begin to study actual responses that current police officers have to the race of possible suspects,and turn this into useful knowledge?
I do not know if charging the officers with murder will make anything better in the future. But can we begin taking other steps toward a better future for children in Ohio?
1) Is Timothy Loehmann still an armed police officer in Cleveland, Ohio?
2) Who manufactured and profited from the sale of the "toy gun?"
3) (Hypothetical) Does anyone think or believe that Tamir Rice would have been gunned down by these officers if he was a 12 year old white child?
Charging the police officers with murder would be a "giant leap" toward change, but will it end up solving the problems that lead to Tamir's tragic death? Maybe we could take other steps in Ohio?
Can our civic leaders in the city of Cleveland assure us that they have removed the gun from Loehmann's holster? Would the NRA be opposed if a legislator in the state of Ohio proposed a law that only allowed the sale of facsimile "toy" weapons in bright orange and green colors? Could some intrepid university researcher in Ohio begin to study actual responses that current police officers have to the race of possible suspects,and turn this into useful knowledge?
I do not know if charging the officers with murder will make anything better in the future. But can we begin taking other steps toward a better future for children in Ohio?
2
I white kid waving around a gun and reaching for it in his waistband after ignoring three orders to raise his hands in Cleveland's most dangerous neighborhood? Yes I do.
4
A seven month investigation and the prosecutor says he will not be rushed?!!!!
6
I do not know if these officers used the exact proper procedures before charging in like they did. That action could be construed as a bit aggressive.
But I certainly would have dropped any gun and reached for the sky, so to speak, if a big police car rolled up on me like that.
But I can tell you a brain, at lest most of us, reacts almost on auto-pilot when faced with what is perceived as an immediate threat. Someone points a gun and there is no time to think. You protect. You fire.
We all think we will be perfect, alert and constrained in a similar situation...until the bullets start flying.
But I certainly would have dropped any gun and reached for the sky, so to speak, if a big police car rolled up on me like that.
But I can tell you a brain, at lest most of us, reacts almost on auto-pilot when faced with what is perceived as an immediate threat. Someone points a gun and there is no time to think. You protect. You fire.
We all think we will be perfect, alert and constrained in a similar situation...until the bullets start flying.
2
You talk about the brain to justify killing a child, apparently unaware of the irony that in your previous sentence you express the expectation that a 12 year old brain faced with the sudden appearance of a police cruiser should have done what your (presumably) adult brain, with months to reflect on your hypothetical presence in the exact same situation, thinks is most reasonable. Of course this completely leaves aside the fact that the 12 year old child literally did not have time to lower his toy gun before the police bullets destroyed him.
1
McGinty continues to prove himself to be another prosecutor in thrall to the police, to exert no effort to make the case for charges, and thus to pretend to be the Pontius Pilate heading the grand jury (like his fellow prosecutor in Ferguson, MO). A prosecutor who takes over 6 months and counting in a case like this is not being careful; he is being cowardly and conniving, trying to find a way to appear to be doing his job while undermining it so that he can win re-election. Not a chance.
15
Prosecutor has only had the case for a month. The sheriffs office had it for 5-6 months.
A 12 year old boy was allowed to visit a public park without adult supervision. That 12 year old boy was in possession of and displayed a realistic toy gun without distinctive markings. That 12 year old boy had not been taught not to point even toy weapons at people.
The tragedy that ensured was easily foreseeable. Blaming the officer(s) is inappropriate.
The tragedy that ensured was easily foreseeable. Blaming the officer(s) is inappropriate.
6
The officers were trained how to handle a person with a gun. They ignored all of than and just drove right up and shot the kid before their patrol car even came to a stop. They offered him no medical aid, but just walked around while he slowly died. They handcuffed his sister and put her threw her in the patrol car. They lied on a police report calming the kid caused them injuries. They refuse to cooperate with the investigation.
This tragedy was easily avoidable if the police officers had approached the situation as they were trained and not drove up guns blazing. Blaming the officers is completely appropriate.
This tragedy was easily avoidable if the police officers had approached the situation as they were trained and not drove up guns blazing. Blaming the officers is completely appropriate.
1
That is so pathetic. You are saying there is more onus on the 12 year old than the two adult police officers whose duty is to serve and protect?
2
Just what planet are you from?
Throughout this nation, millions of 12 year olds are at public parks without adult supervision, engaging in things that 12 year olds do, whether that’s playing soccer, skate boarding, or even playing with a toy gun.
To infer that a 12 year old child is held to a higher standard than one sworn to protect, serve, and uphold the law reeks of the highest order of insanity.
Throughout this nation, millions of 12 year olds are at public parks without adult supervision, engaging in things that 12 year olds do, whether that’s playing soccer, skate boarding, or even playing with a toy gun.
To infer that a 12 year old child is held to a higher standard than one sworn to protect, serve, and uphold the law reeks of the highest order of insanity.
2
The cops arrived in a squad car, right? They couldn't have pinned in Tamir with the car and ordered him to drop the weapon before getting out of the car and shooting him dead? I don't double police put their lives on the line every day for us civilians, but I can't believe police don't get training on how to disarm people without shooting them dead. And the fact that the cops manhandled Tamir's teenage sister after Tamir was shot and did not provide first aid for at "least 4 minutes" does not say much for them either.
17
Those commenters who feel the officer's shooting of the boy was justified are also implicitly saying that, given the same circumstances, the police would be justified in taking the same action.
But, if it were their 12-year old son in the same circumstances, I can't imagine those same commenters saying the police should have done nothing differently.
But, if it were their 12-year old son in the same circumstances, I can't imagine those same commenters saying the police should have done nothing differently.
8
If my 12 year old son were unattended in a park in Cleveland's worst neighborhood waiving around an object that looks indistinguishable from an automatic sidearm and disregarded three commands to put his hands on his head, yes, I would expect him to get shot. That is why I fulfil my parental duties.
3
The police are one of the limbs of the body of the justice system. They should trust in the system of arrest, trial and conviction or acquittal. The video would seem like a drive by shooting if the shooter wasn't a police officer.
8
In a drive by shooting the shooters drive away without stopping. They don't stop and order the subject to put his hands up and only shoot after failing to obtain compliance and the subject reaches for a weapon.
2
What could possibly take seven months to prepare for a Grand Jury hearing? The delay is tantamount to the outcome. These officers will never be indicted. The police and the DA work too closely together on a day to day basis to risk blowing up their alliance over a single, if abhorrent, bad outcome.
6
The boy was scared, obviously the cops once again fail to control the situation.
5
Since he has no authority to issue a warrant, he should have kept his mouth shut.
4
Many concerned lovers of America are watching this case worldwide. We have all seen the video and cannot understand the delay in bringing at least one of these officers to trial so that it may be decided, by a jury of his peers, whether his actions were reasonable under all the circumstances.
It will be extremely difficult for observers to conclude that there is freedom or justice in the USA should this case not come to trial and a conviction be obtained.
It will be extremely difficult for observers to conclude that there is freedom or justice in the USA should this case not come to trial and a conviction be obtained.
5
Other portions of the justice system must first decide before a judge and jury can. I've seen the tape and I side with the officers.
1
There is a lesson here for cops.
Stay in the car and let nature take its course.
It will all sort itself out without your interference and the public will be happy.
Stay in the car and let nature take its course.
It will all sort itself out without your interference and the public will be happy.
4
The incompetence of prosecutors are hitting us full face, and we see the corruption pf the criminal Justice system. There were over 400 police killings last year and only three are indicted and none convicted so far. People do not appear to realize that Ohio is an open carry state, but not for African Americans, not even carrying toy guns.
11
Bastards! Nothing less is appropriate to describe the authors of this screed.
"....a series of killings of unarmed black males by police officers...." This was not an unarmed black male, this was an obviously armed black male.
Only after he was shot could it be determined that the gun was a replica. By the same reasoning, shooting an armed felon whose gun misfired is also a crime as is shooting a criminal who has run out of ammunition.
Only in the NYT could this drivel be published and lauded by the ignoramuses who take this blather seriously.
"....a series of killings of unarmed black males by police officers...." This was not an unarmed black male, this was an obviously armed black male.
Only after he was shot could it be determined that the gun was a replica. By the same reasoning, shooting an armed felon whose gun misfired is also a crime as is shooting a criminal who has run out of ammunition.
Only in the NYT could this drivel be published and lauded by the ignoramuses who take this blather seriously.
6
He was 12 years old. Not threatening anyone. No one was around. They could have asked questions first rather than jump to conclusions. Others are given the benefit of the doubt. Why did he have to be shot first? The help that arrived was slow in coming. Tragic all around.
6
Actually, this WAS an unarmed black male. Unless you'd now like us to consider every child holding a toy gun as armed and dangerous. Maybe just the black or brown ones. You say, "Only after he was shot could it be determined that the gun was a replica". Really??!! That's an absurd statement. My 8-year old kid has a prop sword in his hand right now. Is he a danger?? There's no telling whether he's going to snap -- so I'd better knock the sword out of his hand, I guess. Or shoot him. There is a universe of possibilities to determine whether the police, or anyone, is an ACTUAL danger beyond just shooting kid. Just like there are a number of ways to tell if your house has electricity besides sticking your tongue in an open circuit. Absurd.
This was a kid playing. The cops not only had a fatal miscommunication from the 911 operator, but they themselves responded as if they'd been trained for warfare, and not community protection and service.
I think your comments -- and the clear police culture -- point to quite a larger conversation. It's time for our police force and police state to transform and join civilization.
This was a kid playing. The cops not only had a fatal miscommunication from the 911 operator, but they themselves responded as if they'd been trained for warfare, and not community protection and service.
I think your comments -- and the clear police culture -- point to quite a larger conversation. It's time for our police force and police state to transform and join civilization.
This is a sad occurrence only after it was learned that the gun was a "toy" (research, see below, shows it is actually a step above a toy) (and the marker - orange, indicating that it was had been removed - earlier news article).
"Tamir was holding an airsoft-type gun that had its orange safety cap removed when the officer shot him Saturday, according to police. Airsoft guns are not designed to kill or seriously injure."
"They're recreational products. I wouldn't call it a toy," Hunnicutt said."
I would only imagine that there could have been another solution - staying in the car - calmly talking to the boy to ask him to put the "gun" down. Children do shoot others all the time (usually accidents as they do not understand the danger of guns).
Ultimately there needs to be work on both ends - gun makers, parents, (why give a child such a realistic play toy in this day and age - any child)... and obviously the response of first responders. There is no ONE single factor involved.
....................................
CLEVELAND, Ohio – In the moments before a Cleveland police officer shot and fatally injured 12-year-old Tamir Rice, police say the child grabbed for a fake weapon designed to look like the real thing.
The novelty guns shoot small plastic pellets and come in all shapes and sizes, including pistols and rifles, said Chip Hunnicutt, Marketing Manager for Crosman, a New York-based company and one of many manufacturers that produce the guns.
"Tamir was holding an airsoft-type gun that had its orange safety cap removed when the officer shot him Saturday, according to police. Airsoft guns are not designed to kill or seriously injure."
"They're recreational products. I wouldn't call it a toy," Hunnicutt said."
I would only imagine that there could have been another solution - staying in the car - calmly talking to the boy to ask him to put the "gun" down. Children do shoot others all the time (usually accidents as they do not understand the danger of guns).
Ultimately there needs to be work on both ends - gun makers, parents, (why give a child such a realistic play toy in this day and age - any child)... and obviously the response of first responders. There is no ONE single factor involved.
....................................
CLEVELAND, Ohio – In the moments before a Cleveland police officer shot and fatally injured 12-year-old Tamir Rice, police say the child grabbed for a fake weapon designed to look like the real thing.
The novelty guns shoot small plastic pellets and come in all shapes and sizes, including pistols and rifles, said Chip Hunnicutt, Marketing Manager for Crosman, a New York-based company and one of many manufacturers that produce the guns.
I`m sure that clashes between cops and citizens must stop. Law should matter to both cops and citizens. Today people prefer to violate law rather than obeying it. Cops` duty must be to serve and protect and citizens must follow it. Until it happens we will face horrible situations very often.
1
Justice will be done when the killer cop is publicly tried and publicly hanged.
3
No coincidence that it was a black judge in a vity where the black mayor did a public "I stand with you" appearance with Rice's mother (no lawsuit yet so no father surfacing).
The part about Rice pointing the weapon (as it was believed to be until recovered from hsi body) being left out of your coverage parallels your use of the picture of Rice as a smiling little boy - just as was done with Michael Brown and Traytvon Martin. You might try a more current photo of a very large boy - 5'8" & 195 pounds.
And the big problem of these situations is that the police officers had handguns and were dealing with someone who apparently had an assault rifle. That forces the officers to get close and act fast - if they stop 20 ye=ards away, their handguns are largely useless and they are dead meat to a rifleman.
The part about Rice pointing the weapon (as it was believed to be until recovered from hsi body) being left out of your coverage parallels your use of the picture of Rice as a smiling little boy - just as was done with Michael Brown and Traytvon Martin. You might try a more current photo of a very large boy - 5'8" & 195 pounds.
And the big problem of these situations is that the police officers had handguns and were dealing with someone who apparently had an assault rifle. That forces the officers to get close and act fast - if they stop 20 ye=ards away, their handguns are largely useless and they are dead meat to a rifleman.
1
Not that it matters at this point, but the "gun" in question was an Airsoft pistol…not a rifle - so your argument is ridiculous. As a people, we have to STOP vilifying black culture and making monsters out of people because they happen to be, as you say, 5'8" and 195…And, oh yeah, black! Your argument is exactly like Darren Wilson saying "I thought he would run through a hail of bullets". Black people are not monsters with super-human strength no matter their size, they are just people that have historically been considered as such. We must stop this if we are to advance.
6
So if the police are charging in and we Know they are armed and have a history of indiscriminate shootings . We can open fire in total confidence that it will be judged self defence.
It's been seven months, and this hasn't even gone to a grand jury yet. Obviously prosecutors are dragging their feet. And if a judge has already determined probable cause exists, why does this have to go through a grand jury? Send it on to a real jury to decide.
2
While sad, the police did what they needed to do. Perhaps with a father figure and a value system the outcome would have been different.
I wonder if you would feel the same if it had been your child who had been shot by the police - for carrying a toy gun.
kid playing with a toy gun in a park. "father figure"? "value system"? cut and paste fox tropes and racist dog whistles.
First of all, Tamir's father is in his life and has been interviewed by reporters and spoken about his son. Second of all, you have no inkling about the family's value system, you're making a judgment based on assumptions because it is a black family living in the inner city of Cleveland. And furthermore, Tamir was playing by himself at the park across the street from his house when these out of control cops decided to roll up on him and shoot him dead in 2 seconds. But in your mind they "did what they needed to do"? What's that...execute a 12 year old in front of his sister?
If the local prosecutor fails to take action, bring in an outside prosecutor to do the job. I think Mike Nifong is ready, willing and able to take over. And the NY Times loves the guy.
1
I keep reading and hearing, most recently on CNN, that tthey got a call of a person with a gun and when they arrived they found a person with a gun. Supposedly intellegent reporters and "experts" are saying this. There is no way, based on the video evidence, that they could have reasonably assumed that the child had a gun as the toy, which may have been mistaken for a gun, was not visible to them as it was covered by his clothing. It is bad enough that a 12 year old child is killed, the lies are almost too much to bear.
2
The Dispatcher recording reveal that the callers also said, "...it looks like it's a toy gun." 2 second after the police arrived on the scene a boy with a toy gun is dead. The culture of antipathy, intolerance and brutality of the police dept. does not support the potential for innocence of these officers or the dispatcher.
These police will not be convicted. I don't know how much longer we can put up with this police state. How much can we stand? Do we
want to live like this? Can we live like this? People are feeling the hatred of police welling up in them. Many people are really on the edge at this point. Suspicionless checkpoints, abuse at the hands of police, running drug dogs around our cars at checkpoints, making us get out of our cars at these damn checkpoints. DUI checkpoints. "Driver's license checkpoints." "Safety checkpoints. Asking all these questions - where are you coming from? Where are you going? I can't stand this. I feel like telling them to shove it, but of course, then I'll be arrested. American police and the "justice system" are out of control, and many people are having trouble putting up with it. I'm fed up. I am really feeling the hatred.
want to live like this? Can we live like this? People are feeling the hatred of police welling up in them. Many people are really on the edge at this point. Suspicionless checkpoints, abuse at the hands of police, running drug dogs around our cars at checkpoints, making us get out of our cars at these damn checkpoints. DUI checkpoints. "Driver's license checkpoints." "Safety checkpoints. Asking all these questions - where are you coming from? Where are you going? I can't stand this. I feel like telling them to shove it, but of course, then I'll be arrested. American police and the "justice system" are out of control, and many people are having trouble putting up with it. I'm fed up. I am really feeling the hatred.
7
ABOUT TIME . . .
...wouldn't you say?
...wouldn't you say?
1
A fair and impartial judiciary? Doesn't seem so.
1
A fair and impartial criminal investigation of the police by IAs and DA? Doesn't seem possible in the U.S.. Take them out of the equation, for the sake of ending a code of no consequence for undisciplined policing resulting in insupportable violence or loss of life.
5
Americans should study why European police seem to kill people at a much lower rate. There are criminals in Europe, including some very violent people, but they seem to almost always end up alive, intact, and in jail rather than in the morgue.
6
Yet, a guy can walk into a theater armed to the teeth and kill 12 people in Colorado and some how he only gets ARRESTED... smh
And you guys do not see the problem here??
And you guys do not see the problem here??
46
ya, thats how law works, the police are not executioners.
INNOCENT until proven GUILTY means...
the that a police officer who kills an alleged criminal is GUILTY until proven innocent
INNOCENT until proven GUILTY means...
the that a police officer who kills an alleged criminal is GUILTY until proven innocent
Update...I didn't see the Times video footage when I originally posted. It seems like more appropriate footage than what i saw on Youtube and, yet, I don't feel that i can draw conclusions about what happened (and didn't happen) from the footage. One thing that is missing from the Times' footage is what appears to be Tamir, on several occasions, pointing a gun at pedestrians, which was noted by the police dispatcher.
5
What is extremely clear that Loehmann, a policeman who was so sub-standard that he was forced out of his earlier job, shot Tamir Rice within two seconds of arriving at the scene.
Then his partner Garmback, instead of helping Tamir, bravely handcuffed Tamir's sister as she tried to rush to Tamir's aid.
Neither of these two 'policemen' tried to administer any kind aid to Tamir.
And yet you say that you can't draw any conclusions from the video footage!
No wonder the police get away with such shocking behaviour - there's an apologist hiding behind every tree.
Then his partner Garmback, instead of helping Tamir, bravely handcuffed Tamir's sister as she tried to rush to Tamir's aid.
Neither of these two 'policemen' tried to administer any kind aid to Tamir.
And yet you say that you can't draw any conclusions from the video footage!
No wonder the police get away with such shocking behaviour - there's an apologist hiding behind every tree.
3
It seems you would forgive the police anything. It is obvious that he is not point the "weapon" at anyone at the time he is shot and killed. People like you are why cops routinely get away with murder. If Tamir was your brother (I know, unlikely as he was black) you might feel differently.
2
Really. So even if not pointing the gun at the cops, the kid gets mowed down and by the way one caller did say he thought it was a toy. That would be a toy.
2
As to the alleged danger of cops day-to-day work, allow a public defender to speak to that:
I am noticing that every discussion of police tactics in this country, even discussions that are critical of the police, includes a caveat along the lines of, "Police put their lives on the line every day." Police are certainly trained to see their work this way - they're the only people in the world who routinely insist that everyone they interact with take his hands out of his pockets because he might be hiding a weapon. If we're going to have a serious conversation about changing police practices, we need to stop this line of reasoning, because it's inaccurate and destructive. Police do not have one of the most dangerous jobs, but they are trained to believe that they do. As a result, they end up having one of the most stressful jobs, which affects them and the people they interact with negatively. The vast majority (like 99%, according to a major study) of police-civilian interactions don't involve any injury or force at all, but police are trained to view all interactions with civilians through a tactical lens. That's a miserable way to spend your working days.
I am noticing that every discussion of police tactics in this country, even discussions that are critical of the police, includes a caveat along the lines of, "Police put their lives on the line every day." Police are certainly trained to see their work this way - they're the only people in the world who routinely insist that everyone they interact with take his hands out of his pockets because he might be hiding a weapon. If we're going to have a serious conversation about changing police practices, we need to stop this line of reasoning, because it's inaccurate and destructive. Police do not have one of the most dangerous jobs, but they are trained to believe that they do. As a result, they end up having one of the most stressful jobs, which affects them and the people they interact with negatively. The vast majority (like 99%, according to a major study) of police-civilian interactions don't involve any injury or force at all, but police are trained to view all interactions with civilians through a tactical lens. That's a miserable way to spend your working days.
40
Firemen, loggers and commercial fishermen are just three out of at least ten professions more dangerous than being a policeman.
2
A very interesting and informative comment. The idea that the goal of the police officer is to quote, go home safely, unquote, sure does differ from when I was younger and police usually talked about it as quote, wanting to do good for people, unquote. The emphasis on safety at all costs and safety first has led to officers drawing weapons frequently, and thinking of interactions in an "us vs. them" paradigm.
Officers are not supposed to worry so much about going home safe, but are sworn to protect and to serve and to give up their life if necessary.
Where did that approach go?
Officers are not supposed to worry so much about going home safe, but are sworn to protect and to serve and to give up their life if necessary.
Where did that approach go?
1
"Mr. McGinty released a terse statement indicating that he would not be rushed into filing a criminal complaint". Right 7 months since the event, he certainly isn't being rushed.
50
Let's for a moment rewind and assume there is no video and few details are known. All we know is a simple fact: A 12 years old is shot dead walking alone in a park with something that looked like a pistol by somebody; further it is known who that somebody is, but not his/her role but that the somebody is an adult.
Is it imaginable that there could be conditions under which that somebody is not indicted considering that the victim is by four years a minor? The adult has the responsibility to act like an adult, not the child. I rest my case.
Is it imaginable that there could be conditions under which that somebody is not indicted considering that the victim is by four years a minor? The adult has the responsibility to act like an adult, not the child. I rest my case.
15
This sounds more than a little like Marbury v. Madison where Marshall answered the question of the case and then decided he didn't actually have the power to decide it. As with that case, the judge here should have simply said he didn't have the ability to order an arrest rather than opine about a case he had no jurisdiction to hear.
Ultimately, the police had to make a very split-second decision without the knowledge that the victim was either a minor or didn't have an actual weapon. All they knew was that someone was waving a gun around in a threatening manor in a public space and that he choose not to flee or drop the weapon when they approached.
Was it reasonable then for them to fear for their lives being in such close range to the victim with the information they had? I think the answer is clearly yes.
Ultimately, the police had to make a very split-second decision without the knowledge that the victim was either a minor or didn't have an actual weapon. All they knew was that someone was waving a gun around in a threatening manor in a public space and that he choose not to flee or drop the weapon when they approached.
Was it reasonable then for them to fear for their lives being in such close range to the victim with the information they had? I think the answer is clearly yes.
4
Well Jack, I think it would have been much more reasonable for the cop to take at least 10 seconds to assess what was going on from a reasonable distance in the safety of the cruiser instead of immediately jumping out of a rolling vehicle and firing at a child from 8 feet
3
I think the answer is clearly no. You said it yourself. Why were they in such close range? And from close range. anyone who can't tell the difference between an adult and a 12-year-old boy isn't really looking hard enough.
3
Why did they get so close if they feared him? Why not do it so they are far enough away, behind a car, and then yell through a megaphone?
I think in these incidents, like in Texas, New York stairwell shooting, or the cop jumping on the car and unloading his gun, etc. the cops are amped up for some reason or another, with an itchy trigger finger. Even though the vast majority of my interactions with cops has been polite and nonthreatening, I've come across cops who are angry for some external reason, and I've seen them behave unprofessionally. In the videos, the language the cops use is inexcusable. In my view, professionals shouldn't be using the word "fuck" when they are doing their job interacting with the public. Let's start with that --- learn some discipline and self control. It is not easy, but it is necessary for this job. I've seen a LOT of cops do this - so anyone who doesn't repeatedly should be dismissed and not protected.
I think in these incidents, like in Texas, New York stairwell shooting, or the cop jumping on the car and unloading his gun, etc. the cops are amped up for some reason or another, with an itchy trigger finger. Even though the vast majority of my interactions with cops has been polite and nonthreatening, I've come across cops who are angry for some external reason, and I've seen them behave unprofessionally. In the videos, the language the cops use is inexcusable. In my view, professionals shouldn't be using the word "fuck" when they are doing their job interacting with the public. Let's start with that --- learn some discipline and self control. It is not easy, but it is necessary for this job. I've seen a LOT of cops do this - so anyone who doesn't repeatedly should be dismissed and not protected.
1
The boy was 12 and of reasonable age to know right from wrong besides him taking the orange tag off of the gun to make it look more like a real gun. People in the case are just looking for a "guilty" verdict of the police.
4
The toy gun did not belong to Tamir and there is no evidence that he removed the identifying mark that it was a toy. As the video is not in color one cannot tell it if had already been removed by the owner of the toy or if the police removed it to hide evidence. Something I am sure you never acknowledge that they do.
The cop who killed the kid is guilty. The question is of what. I'd say manslaughter.
1
Jannis would feel very differently if her 12 year old had been playing with a toy gun and got gunned down this way. Of course she would - but then this kid was just a poor black kid from Cleavland - should have known better - after all - those black kids are practically grown up at 12, right Jannis.
Please.
Please.
3
It's a good start, but still a long way from indictments and convictions.
4
I have looked at two videos that were posted on Youtube by "Noticias Youtube" that claims that one can definitively determine that the police murdered the boy. There is no sound and therefore, no way to determine whether there was or wasn't dialogue between the police and the boy and no way to determine innocence or guilt on the police's part. Is anyone aware of footage that clearly demonstrated that the police murdered the boy? The footage seems to support the police radio communications that reports the boy aiming the gun at people.
7
What are you talking about? In the videos you saw he is never seen pointing the gun at anyone at the time of the encounter.
The videos that were available on Youtube show him pointing a gun at people. The NYT one does not. Regarding the final, fatal encounter, we cannot completely see what takes place because of obstructions such as the police car.
"Community activists" watch a grainy video, declare that they have "knowledge of the facts" obtained only through watching the video, and ask a Municipal Court (no less) Judge to issue a probable cause finding. The acts of the deceased in the seconds before his death are not observable because the video is of poor quality and because the position of the patrol car blocks observation of his actions. Let the proper authority, grand jury and prosecutor, do their proper job. Anyone watching the video would have no way of knowing the age of the person walking through a public park brandishing, and pointing, what appears as a lethal handgun. "Activist" hype - no more, no less.
9
So the judge is a "community activist"? Since when?
2
I give up. All you rationalizers finding ways to try to justify killing this kid just blow me away. Almost every post on here so far supports the police. There is not justice in the United States.
2
No criticism of the police to be fund from Mr. Boyle. Nope - two seconds was way too long to wait to shoot this twelve year old menace down - CF would have started shooting from inside the car like a real cop!
4
Street Roots in Portland Or. just published a nice local synopsis of the fulcrum of our system and the rot inside of the triangle. Its de ja vue all over again ...
The laws as lobbied by our attorney generals to keep past cases from being overturned by cops ... would be a significant reason for the slop and hatred allowed in the system. Sadly our legislators knowing full well - participate. Putting bad cops with good ones protects someone, but not the mentally ill, hard of hearing or the black guy. Perhaps just a goofy interpretation of what's needed to protect the good. But this case is just another of several hundred this past 5 years to not be pursued by those elected to help society correct recurrent evil doing and sadly will not find real justice in the city it occurred. Interested ? Check it out on this level, you'll see the rot.
The laws as lobbied by our attorney generals to keep past cases from being overturned by cops ... would be a significant reason for the slop and hatred allowed in the system. Sadly our legislators knowing full well - participate. Putting bad cops with good ones protects someone, but not the mentally ill, hard of hearing or the black guy. Perhaps just a goofy interpretation of what's needed to protect the good. But this case is just another of several hundred this past 5 years to not be pursued by those elected to help society correct recurrent evil doing and sadly will not find real justice in the city it occurred. Interested ? Check it out on this level, you'll see the rot.
5
The judge should also have ruled that probable cause existed to charge the prosecutor for dereliction and non-performance of his duties.
27
presumably mcginty's grand jury will not be informed of judge adrine's order, so that it can be impartially informed by the impartial prosecutor of how difficult it is to interpret a grainy surveillance video, and will decline to find probable cause for a manslaughter charge.
grand jury as prosecutorial fig leaf and expedient excuse. it worked in ferguson, it worked in staten island; it can work in cleveland too.
grand jury as prosecutorial fig leaf and expedient excuse. it worked in ferguson, it worked in staten island; it can work in cleveland too.
10
First, Tamir Rice was pointing a realistic-looking toy gun at people walking on the sidewalk, precipitating the call to 911 from a concerned man (his concern was that people were being scared by having what looked to be a real gun pointed at them).
Second, the cops were NOT told by the 911 dispatcher that the man had said the gun was probably fake & that it might be a juvenile. They thought they were responding to a male with a gun in a neighborhood that is tragically affected by much gun violence.
Third, the cops said they expected the subject (Tamir) to run as they approached, as many perpetrators do. When he didn't, the driver hit the brakes but the car slid many feet due to the slushy snow & mud conditions (I think you can actually see the skid marks in the photo). They ended up way too close to Tamir and when he approached them with his hand reaching toward his waistband...well, you know the rest.
Conclusions: The 911 Operator should be fired for gross incompetence. The cops should also be fired for the same reason (driving up on the grass like that was stupid--ironically, they could've gotten shot if it had been a guy with a real gun). But this was not murder. It's not even reckless endangerment since they were responding to a call of a "guy" pointing a gun at people. Had this happened in a high-crime white area (e.g., rural areas filled with meth dealers) this would be seen as the tragedy it is. But it wouldn't be on the national news.
Second, the cops were NOT told by the 911 dispatcher that the man had said the gun was probably fake & that it might be a juvenile. They thought they were responding to a male with a gun in a neighborhood that is tragically affected by much gun violence.
Third, the cops said they expected the subject (Tamir) to run as they approached, as many perpetrators do. When he didn't, the driver hit the brakes but the car slid many feet due to the slushy snow & mud conditions (I think you can actually see the skid marks in the photo). They ended up way too close to Tamir and when he approached them with his hand reaching toward his waistband...well, you know the rest.
Conclusions: The 911 Operator should be fired for gross incompetence. The cops should also be fired for the same reason (driving up on the grass like that was stupid--ironically, they could've gotten shot if it had been a guy with a real gun). But this was not murder. It's not even reckless endangerment since they were responding to a call of a "guy" pointing a gun at people. Had this happened in a high-crime white area (e.g., rural areas filled with meth dealers) this would be seen as the tragedy it is. But it wouldn't be on the national news.
7
If the cops truly believed their lives were in danger, they would NOT have driven up to within two feet of the boy. They obviously knew there was no real danger. And they made no effort to defuse the situation: they came out of the car and killed the boy within two seconds. This was murder by any definition.
45
Hi Mark, that was one of my points: They didn't mean to come that close. They figured he'd see them coming and assumed he'd run. They slammed on the brakes and then--because the driver very stupidly didn't take the mushy ground conditions into account--skidded several dozen feet closer to poor Tamir Rice than they intended.
So yes, they thought their lives might potentially be in danger--because the call was for a "guy pointing a gun at people". But I think people should consider the context--they didn't mean to be so close to him. It was a tragic mistake, not purposeful.
So yes, they thought their lives might potentially be in danger--because the call was for a "guy pointing a gun at people". But I think people should consider the context--they didn't mean to be so close to him. It was a tragic mistake, not purposeful.
We saw the video. He never pointed the gun at anyone and the gun had been put away when the cops showed up. No one else ever appeared to be in the park. The caller lied and the dispatch never cleared up his age to the cops. The cop shot him in 1.5-2 seconds. Tamir had no chance to react or comprehend what was happening. He never reached for the gun to point it at the cops (why would he anyway? It's fake and he knows it). How can he put the toy gun away without reaching for it since he wasn't holding it? You're blaming anyine and everyone but the cop who handled this terribly. And you're lying to defend him. Why?
4
Situation in the Cleveland is complicated, but very clear, the boy was holding a copy of military weapons, which accordingly must have a special identification red cap, but it for some reason was absent. I'm not defending the COP, but I believe that there are too many aspects that still need to be addressed in court.
6
He was in an open carry state so simply holding the weapon, even if it was real, was not necessarily a crime.
35
Unless Anon, you are black. THen in that case in those same open carry states, you can be shot. Remember the Walmart scene?
2
Stupid move. Unless you have been a prosecutor you have no idea how difficult it is to prosecute bad police, and how hard it is to build a case against them. Now they have to do it with a judge's gun to their heads, with speedy trial clocks ticking, and the cops' lawyers— and they are always the best— will rush this thing to trial. This is not a cause— this is the justice system, and it takes more time to get some things right than others. My guess is the prosecutor's office is overworked and underfunded too, which frost sthe cake handed the likely defendants.
My guess is that the prosecutor would charge a ham sandwich with murder before he'd charge a cop with anything. It's probably just taking this long to impanel a sufficiently racist Grand Jury to assure no bill.
And if you think that's cynical of me - than (presuming you're a prosecutor) go out and change my mind - do your job - stop overcharging poor people to get promoted, and giving cops a pass. Then maybe you'll earn some respect.
And if you think that's cynical of me - than (presuming you're a prosecutor) go out and change my mind - do your job - stop overcharging poor people to get promoted, and giving cops a pass. Then maybe you'll earn some respect.
1
Here is what we do know. We know that a judge has found probable cause to arrest these officers and that the DA need only file a complaint to arrest them as was done in Baltimore.
The officers pull up to a guy holding a gun. They can't possibly know he's only 12 years old and they can't possibly know for certain the gun is not real.
I don't know what they said to him but he didn't put his hands up, didn't drop his gun, didn't get on the ground, didn't do anything to indicate he was not a threat.
It's very easy to sit back and watch these videos in slow motion and get outraged. It's very different to be on the ground confronting real threats in real time and having to make split second life or death decisions.
I don't know what they said to him but he didn't put his hands up, didn't drop his gun, didn't get on the ground, didn't do anything to indicate he was not a threat.
It's very easy to sit back and watch these videos in slow motion and get outraged. It's very different to be on the ground confronting real threats in real time and having to make split second life or death decisions.
9
Oh my god, stop peddling this nonsense. How on earth could could they have said anything to him in the 2 seconds it took them to drive up and shoot him dead? The car had barely stopped moving for pete's sake.
26
The boy was shot in less than 2 seconds after the cops arrived, before the patrol car had even come to a halt, yet you are suggesting that there was plenty of time for the police to issue an order and for Tamir to respond appropriately. You seem to be implying that the fact that he did nothing warrants the shooting death of this 12 year old boy. I'm sure it is different to be on the ground and confronting real threats, but that's the point. This was NOT a real threat, just a kid with a toy gun. Timothy Loemann, the officer who shot the boy had been judged unfit for police service in 2012 and had been released from service. Think about it.
34
Wrong, the caller to 911 said the gun was probably fake and that the person was a juvenile.
The cops never ordered him to drop his gun, or put his hands up or anything before they shot, they didn't have the time to do that, as they came out of the car and shot him.
The cops never ordered him to drop his gun, or put his hands up or anything before they shot, they didn't have the time to do that, as they came out of the car and shot him.
20
To those who claim that the cops in this case (or the windshield case) were fearing for their lives: all 3 cops deliberately put themselves into positions where they could make that claim. One climbed onto a car, and the other two parked right next to a "suspect."
First, who, exactly, was Tamir threatening before they arrived, given that he was ALONE? Answer: no one.
Second, given that he wasn't posing a threat to anyone, the gun being real or not is irrelevant, and they had no reason to rush him. Have these guys never heard of stopping at a safe distance and observing? Or were they just bathed in adrenaline and looking to shoot someone?
The cop who shot this child appears to have jumped out of the car with his weapon ready to fire. This screams, "I had already made up my mind before I got there."
Disgusting.
Mr. or Ms. Prosecutor, we're waiting.
First, who, exactly, was Tamir threatening before they arrived, given that he was ALONE? Answer: no one.
Second, given that he wasn't posing a threat to anyone, the gun being real or not is irrelevant, and they had no reason to rush him. Have these guys never heard of stopping at a safe distance and observing? Or were they just bathed in adrenaline and looking to shoot someone?
The cop who shot this child appears to have jumped out of the car with his weapon ready to fire. This screams, "I had already made up my mind before I got there."
Disgusting.
Mr. or Ms. Prosecutor, we're waiting.
85
Note that it did not take this highly respected judge 6 months to a year to determine whether probable cause existed in this case. What the police and prosecutor are doing is stalling--for what reason? Should we interpret their foot dragging as an endorsement of killing children in this manner?
Note that what horrified the judge almost as much as the instant killing was the indifference of the police to offer any medical help, to let the boy bleed out, and to manhandle his distraught sister who ran to his aid.
Note that what horrified the judge almost as much as the instant killing was the indifference of the police to offer any medical help, to let the boy bleed out, and to manhandle his distraught sister who ran to his aid.
57
Cliven Bundy and a gang of thugs can threaten federal agents and police with military style guns. They are not even arrested, let alone being shot in two seconds. But a twelve year old gets no such tolerance. Go figure what the difference in the two situations is.
108
Could it be, I don't know, maybe the child's color?
16
Even if there is, ultimately, a conviction against the officers, the victory would be bittersweet, as a child's life can't be returned and Tamir's sister will carry the memory of helplessly watching him die. Tamir Rice's death will not have been in vain, though, if this case causes law enforcement nationwide to see that they cannot act with impunity and that no civilian life is cheap.
74
This is one of the clearest example of police negligence bordering on malice that I have ever seen. I was sickened by recent reports that the driver was not under investigation for wrongdoing. He placed the police vehicle almost on top of the boy with the toy gun, creating a deadly close-quarters situation. Who knows what the officers were thinking? Like the cowards they are, both have refused to be interviewed. Good for whoever realized that that the investigation was shaping up to to be a whitewash. More states should allow citizens to directly petition a judge.
54
This of course was a tragic event like all recent similar events that appear to be race related. But was it?
Cops must daily cope with varying degrees of threatening situations that I would imagine at times feels like being in a war zone. And even though trained for this high stress; high pressured job in law enforcement--that most of us would avoid like the plague--in the final analysis they are humans; imperfect humans with lots yet to learn.
That said, however, the gun this unfortunate young man was pointing at police (sans consideration of consequences due to his youth and perhaps also sans parental warnings about such things) was apparently life like.
So it doesn't seem far fetched (does it?) that an automatic response by police called to the scene because someone was pointing "a gun" at passers by might involve shooting first irregardless of the skin color of the one aiming the gun to avoid getting shot by what looked like a real firearm.
Of course re considering this tragedy from that perspective and context doesn't restore the life of this young boy nor normalcy to the police involved. But if something important can be learned all around regarding actions and common reactions maybe another similar incident can be prevented in the future regardless of potential legal ramifications.
Cops must daily cope with varying degrees of threatening situations that I would imagine at times feels like being in a war zone. And even though trained for this high stress; high pressured job in law enforcement--that most of us would avoid like the plague--in the final analysis they are humans; imperfect humans with lots yet to learn.
That said, however, the gun this unfortunate young man was pointing at police (sans consideration of consequences due to his youth and perhaps also sans parental warnings about such things) was apparently life like.
So it doesn't seem far fetched (does it?) that an automatic response by police called to the scene because someone was pointing "a gun" at passers by might involve shooting first irregardless of the skin color of the one aiming the gun to avoid getting shot by what looked like a real firearm.
Of course re considering this tragedy from that perspective and context doesn't restore the life of this young boy nor normalcy to the police involved. But if something important can be learned all around regarding actions and common reactions maybe another similar incident can be prevented in the future regardless of potential legal ramifications.
7
Yes, it seems far-fetched. They shot him before getting out of their car.
13
When was he pointing the toy at the police? What passersby were threatened by his behavior? What makes this case worthy of "reconsideration" vs. any other? How about we reconsider why police don't shoot on sight white gun rights advocates who take their dumb guns to get a burrito?
15
Baloney, the caller to 911 said the gun was probably fake and that it was a juvenile.
The kid didn't point the gun at the cops, nor was he given warning by the cops to drop the weapon, they just shot to kill.
Funny how you are so quick to excuse the cops of clearly not performing their duty.
The kid didn't point the gun at the cops, nor was he given warning by the cops to drop the weapon, they just shot to kill.
Funny how you are so quick to excuse the cops of clearly not performing their duty.
28
I have zero hope that the child murderers will be brought to justice by McGinty. He is trying to find enough holes so that we can have a repeat of Eric Garner case. If he had any intention to prosecute he would have done so by now like Baltimore/Charleston. He has zero integrity.
48
High time the DOJ start charging these bigoted and racist prosecutors. This case and one in Ferguson. MO are two where the DA's are complicit , culpable and criminally negligent.
30
Interesting, isn't it, that the racist DOJ declined to bring charges in Ferguson after an exhaustive investigation? The "Hands up, don't shoot" narrative just didn't hold up.
I would hope that this case goes to court and the officers are found guilty of murdering Tamir, however I have my doubts that will happen based on past cases and the cops being exonerated for their actions. Cleveland police officer Michael Brelo was just recently found not guilty by a judge (no jury trial). There were many who shared their opinions in the local papers that the judge made the right decision. Ever since Tamir was killed there are those who are trying this case in the court of public opinion and they blame his mother for not parenting properly, saying the family is looking for a payday and they call Tamir a thug who got what he deserved. The comments that are made about this young boy are despicable. There are too many people who do not want police officers held accountable for their actions and are given a pass when they kill someone. I'm not sure this will get to trial or if there is a trial what the outcome will be, but I'm not all that hopeful that the Rice family will get justice for their son being killed at the hands of a cop.
29
We live in a country where a significant percentage of the population believes that everyone should be armed 24/7, but a child with a toy gun is the result of poor parenting. The hypocrisy is stunning. Guns, guns, guns but ban toys?
4
Nothing says "our justice system is broken" quite like ordinary citizens having to "end-run" the prosecutors office to hold people accountable to the law.
82
It is very sad that this kid was killed by what appears to be reckless policeman. Now parents should warn their young kids not to walk around in today's environment with what can look like a firearm. I had toy guns during my youth, but things were different and I lived in another country.
11
How many white parents have to tell their kids that?
6
Parents of black children have been warning their kids forever to be as careful as possible of the killer cops who occupy their neighborhoods. It doesn't protect them, especially because the cops pretty much have immunity, as Darren Wilson, Daniel Pantaleo and Michael Brelo can testify.
The law is on the side of the cops:
“Why did you draw your gun?” How the law encourages police brutality
www.salon.com/2014/10/31/why_did_you_draw_your_gun”_how_the_law_encourages_police_brutality/
The law is on the side of the cops:
“Why did you draw your gun?” How the law encourages police brutality
www.salon.com/2014/10/31/why_did_you_draw_your_gun”_how_the_law_encourages_police_brutality/
7
Bill Michton: we keep hearing that black parents warn their children to be careful around police, but they don't seem to be getting the message. In most of these highly publicized cases, the initial response of the black (not apparently, Tamir Rice) is to resist lawful authority - tragedy then ensues. It has become a self-fulfilling prophecy: as blacks are endlessly told that any encounter with police is an example of oppression by whitey, they are more prone to resist - and bad stuff happens.
Wait a minute. The prosecutor says the case WILL go to a grand jury. Why on earth hasn't it gone there yet? In light of the Justice Department's findings about the Cleveland police, this suggests horribly bad faith and little chance these officers will be indicted. Since Justice is already involved in Cleveland, can't something be done?
33
One way to prevent this type of thing from happening again is to ban ALL toy guns. Once that's done, any future emergency call saying that someone's waving a gun around can only mean one thing.
Withal, the notion of a 'toy gun' borders on the oxymoronic in any case.
Withal, the notion of a 'toy gun' borders on the oxymoronic in any case.
7
If it's not a toy gun, it's a toy knife. Or it's a suspicious bulge or suspicious manner. The only way to keep police safe and unafraid is to simply stay home out of their view. The only lives they care about are their own.
16
Only in the U.S. could someone want "toy" guns banned, but actual guns unregulated. Amazing.
37
I said I wanted toy guns banned. I made no comment about 'real' guns and their regulation. And yet, despite your having put words into my mouth, over thirty readers agree with you. Bizarre.
Oh, by the way, I am Canadian and live in Toronto. Possibly the reason I made no mention to the regulation of guns is that here in Ontario, their sale and possession are already extremely well (and tightly) regulated. Amazing.
Oh, by the way, I am Canadian and live in Toronto. Possibly the reason I made no mention to the regulation of guns is that here in Ontario, their sale and possession are already extremely well (and tightly) regulated. Amazing.
If I wanted to assure my record pleases cops, and to appear to want justice for the grieving public, I would have ruled just as the Judge did.
Yes, you can have it both ways and make everyone happy.
The cops have a very good chance of walking on this killing.
Yes, you can have it both ways and make everyone happy.
The cops have a very good chance of walking on this killing.
3
Why is no one mentioning- I too have seen the video- that the Police DO NOT EVER drive up to within two feet of a presumably armed and dangerous suspect? NEVER would they commit such a reckless act if they had true cause to believe life-threatening mayhem might occur. So, what were they thinking?
103
I've been a police officer for over twenty years. You are correct; we are NOT trained to approach an armed suspect in that manner. The driver of the patrol car was reckless and negligent in my opinion. He created an exigency where none would have existed had he positioned the car a safe distance away and attempted to communicate with Tamir.
98
After 20 years in policing, I also was amazed that the two cops in this case would get so close to a suspect who was holding what appeared to be a deadly weapon. Training and experience dictate challenging an armed suspect from behind cover whenever it is humanly possible.
Years ago, I responded to a burglary in progress of a jewelry store in the middle of the night. I guarded the dimly-lit back entrance using my patrol car as cover. A man exited the back door carrying what looked to be a large-frame semi-automatic pistol in his hand. Only after two or three warnings did he finally drop what I later found to be a cordless electric drill which he and other workmen had been using to dismantle the shelves of the CLOSED and empty [not known to us or 911!) jewelry store. I'm certain to this day that if I hadn't had adequate cover which gave me the few extra seconds to assess the situation, I would have had no choice but to shoot the workman after he did not comply with my initial orders to drop what he was carrying.
Years ago, I responded to a burglary in progress of a jewelry store in the middle of the night. I guarded the dimly-lit back entrance using my patrol car as cover. A man exited the back door carrying what looked to be a large-frame semi-automatic pistol in his hand. Only after two or three warnings did he finally drop what I later found to be a cordless electric drill which he and other workmen had been using to dismantle the shelves of the CLOSED and empty [not known to us or 911!) jewelry store. I'm certain to this day that if I hadn't had adequate cover which gave me the few extra seconds to assess the situation, I would have had no choice but to shoot the workman after he did not comply with my initial orders to drop what he was carrying.
21
That's something I have wondered about as well. The fact that they drive right up to the boy suggests to me that the knew full well that he didn't represent a threat.
6
This smells. The judge's common-sense finding appears to give Cuyahoga County/City of Cleveland prosecutor Timothy McGinty the cowardly "out" to pass this case on to a grand jury. The cops' lawyers will try to persuade the grand jury that the arriving policemen determined that their lives were at risk and opened fire because they "feared for their lives." Mr. McGinty, were he interested in the service of the law, wouldn't require a grand jury's findings to bring charges. Ferguson and Staten Island grand juries declined to find for the plaintiffs last year. Cleveland is to be next?
18
And if there's no indictment after the grand jury, then what?
Will a higher court take a look at the issue of how the law being used to go before this judge and "the rules laid down from the State Supreme Court" intersect?
Will a higher court take a look at the issue of how the law being used to go before this judge and "the rules laid down from the State Supreme Court" intersect?
15
Does the criminal procedure rule cited by the court actually address the procedure created by the statute under which citizens bring affidavits to a judge? The fact that it talks about complaints and affidavits accompanying complaints -- does its mention of those tell us what the procedure is under the statute, when there are only affidavits?
1
What investigation did Judge Adrine undertake to come to this conclusion? I hope it wasn't just what he saw in the newspaper. The case will go to a Grand Jury. Why the attempt at this runaround which is kind of sketchy?
4
Why is it sketchy? It's part of the Ohio Administrative Code, a perfectly valid avenue for seeking justice. Tamir was killed in November of last year. We can all see the video. Why has it taken so long to file charges (or not)? Sounds to me like this law serves to put needed pressure on a foot-dragging system that often ignores marginalized communities.
64
Grand juries are only advisory in any case. Irrespective of their findings, a prosecutor may choose, or not, to prosecute a case.
2
The Grand Jury process is designed to assure that only the right people get prosecuted. We wouldn't want nice rich white kids getting prosecuted, so we let a nice white prosecutor present a weak case to a completely anonymous group of people he or she personally selected reach the "right" conclusion.
As here - the prosecutor will explain that the evidence is weak, that police officers must always be given the benefit of the doubt, and that reckless incompetence isn't tantamount to murder (unless, you know, you're poor and/or black).
Oh - and let's let some trial judge, elected by a bunch of midwestern red necks, decide facts in these matters.
Yes ladies and gentlemen, that's "justice" in America - something we can all be truly ashamed of.
As here - the prosecutor will explain that the evidence is weak, that police officers must always be given the benefit of the doubt, and that reckless incompetence isn't tantamount to murder (unless, you know, you're poor and/or black).
Oh - and let's let some trial judge, elected by a bunch of midwestern red necks, decide facts in these matters.
Yes ladies and gentlemen, that's "justice" in America - something we can all be truly ashamed of.
2
As a native Clevelander who has been following this case closely, this seems to me to be guardedly hopeful news. I cannot imagine that any investigation -- internal by the Cleveland Police, or by the County prosecutor -- could possibly have taken this long. They have been dragging their feet deliberately, and this should give them a good kick in the a**.
103
Hopefully Cleveland has a prosecutor with integrity.
44
I think the prosecutor is looking for outs, i.e: the grand jury, and will only bring charges if they indict, and thus he's dragged kicking and screaming to the arena to do his job. Rules that the judge cited conflict with the law, so the rules. by definition, are illegal. The prosecutor must also know that if he doesn't bring charges the fed will step in and he will become a party to the action, on the wrong side, for dereliction, hindering prosecution and conspiracy to commit a hate crime. However reluctant he might be to charge these officers, he's got to be more reluctant to go down with them. He's not there to make friends he's there to protect the interests of the people.
20
I hope you are right. At the very least there is the perception of collusion between the Prosecutor and the Police. For the sake of everyone involved, especially the Police, the family, and the community, the case demands to be fully aired in a court of law.
14
That is not perception, Peter L. That is documented over decades.
See, for instance, The Injustice System, by Clive Stafford Smith. He "uncovered improper conduct by police, prosecutors, and the judge, giving Smith the basis for critically analyzing the frailties of the justice system. He shines a harsh light on the conventional belief that the innocent rarely go as far as trial and are seldom convicted, and the immunity of prosecutors from accusations of wrongdoing, including withholding evidence that could prove defendants innocent."
See, for instance, The Injustice System, by Clive Stafford Smith. He "uncovered improper conduct by police, prosecutors, and the judge, giving Smith the basis for critically analyzing the frailties of the justice system. He shines a harsh light on the conventional belief that the innocent rarely go as far as trial and are seldom convicted, and the immunity of prosecutors from accusations of wrongdoing, including withholding evidence that could prove defendants innocent."
4
The death of Tamir Rice is a tragedy -- for all involved. It must be kept in mind that the toy he was carrying -- and, it is suggested, aimed in the general direction of the officers, probably just as he turned in response to their arrival -- was very realistic, indeed, indistinguishable in appearance from an actual weapon.
But the officers were not told by the dispatcher that it was a toy gun; just that it was a gun -- and in the first instant of arrival saw it being turned towards them.
Honestly: If you arrived at a scene having been advised there was an armed person to be investigated, and saw that person start to turn his "weapon" on you --- what would you have done?
I expect that the officers themselves are in deep despair over what they did.
But the officers were not told by the dispatcher that it was a toy gun; just that it was a gun -- and in the first instant of arrival saw it being turned towards them.
Honestly: If you arrived at a scene having been advised there was an armed person to be investigated, and saw that person start to turn his "weapon" on you --- what would you have done?
I expect that the officers themselves are in deep despair over what they did.
15
Their despair will be deeper when they are tried for murder. (If they are; now it's up to the prosecutor.)
27
Your argument appears reasonable, but it is not. Beyond the recognized facts that Cleveland PD is well known for incompetent police work and the facts that surround Officer Timothy Loehmann, namely that he was known and documented to be critically immature and unable to perform the duties of a police officer, there is the event itself. These police drove up and immediately shot a child, emphasis on the word immediately. You also use your own lies to protect the police, namely that the child, emphasis on the word child, turn and surprised the officers. He did not. You also ignore the facts, emphasis on the word facts, that the police have the responsibility to not put themselves, emphasis on put themselves, into the position where they needed to shoot without assessment.
This case, more than any other in current history begs for justice. The justice includes the jailing of the police and long sentences. Just as with many crimes this case needs to send a message. In this case the message is to the officer that shot a child, to those that hired him and to the incompetent police department in which he worked.
This case, more than any other in current history begs for justice. The justice includes the jailing of the police and long sentences. Just as with many crimes this case needs to send a message. In this case the message is to the officer that shot a child, to those that hired him and to the incompetent police department in which he worked.
79
Had the officers followed protocol, they'd have stopped 7 or more yards from the suspect, taken cover, drawn their weapons and given warning and orders to drop the weapon and get on the ground. The claim of imminent harm was created by their close approach, totally against any departments procedures and training. Coupled with what ensued shortly after the shooting, I can't see how these guys are not charged and convicted, but stranger things have happened. If they get off, the riots in Ferguson look like a sewing circle or book club by comparison, and they should.
122
Good. Not only did the police officer perform murder in the matter of seconds, they pinned down Tamir's sister and would not allow her near him.
Police officers, even though their job is risky, need to be accountable to the law.
Clearly this boy was doing nothing wrong.
Police officers, even though their job is risky, need to be accountable to the law.
Clearly this boy was doing nothing wrong.
94
He was threatening people in the park, with a gun that appeared to be completely real. That's why the 911 call was placed.
Clearly this boy was doing something wrong.
Clearly this boy was doing something wrong.
1
The 911 caller clearly stated that he saw a kid with a gun, and the gun was probably a toy. There was no mention of anyone being threatened. It helps to know the facts.
15
But not so wrong that he should be summarily executed...nobody deserves that!
1