I don't quite have the courage to default on my student loans, fearful of how it might affect my future. But I agree with your sentiment — it's absurd a modern, industrialized society that you can accrue debt by making a responsible choice and get a higher education. It's just another example of the corrupting influence of money in just about anything — politics, sports and even education. Because the banks can make money on you, our government and "institutions" of higher learning are all too happy to sign away your future even before you step on campus. I'm more fearful of the banks than I am the government, because in the end, their the ones who pull the purse strings.
I also don't buy the argument that you should look at price when choosing a school. It's easy to say that as a man of means (who probably came from means) in his 40s. It's a lot tougher to say that when you're a 17 year old kid and your parents want what they think you want (even if it's probably more than they can afford).
60 years ago, all that was really, truly essential to live a middle-class life was a high school degree. So we made a huge investment in public education. Now, in today's economy, some kind of higher degree is essential. And yet we've gone backwards, and divested from public education, shifting more of the burden to kids and their families. Why have our priorities changed so much?
I also don't buy the argument that you should look at price when choosing a school. It's easy to say that as a man of means (who probably came from means) in his 40s. It's a lot tougher to say that when you're a 17 year old kid and your parents want what they think you want (even if it's probably more than they can afford).
60 years ago, all that was really, truly essential to live a middle-class life was a high school degree. So we made a huge investment in public education. Now, in today's economy, some kind of higher degree is essential. And yet we've gone backwards, and divested from public education, shifting more of the burden to kids and their families. Why have our priorities changed so much?
124
It won't go down alongside "Letters from the Birmingham Jail" or "Civil Disobedience."
A summary of the rationalizations:
"My modest origins were a misfortune."
"When a system is immoral, it is not only not immoral, but moral to behave immorally in that system."
"Everyone is dead now, they won't care/notice."
"The fees were unjustly high."
"The balance was too much, beyond what I borrowed."
"Lucrative careers are immortal, self-disgusting, destructive of precious young life, and unhappy."
"The road to character requires money."
"Rich people default too."
There is injustice in our tax policy and, yes, the rich do have it easier, and, yes, many rich behave immorally (bailouts and bonuses anyone?). But an act of civil disobedience while actively endeavoring to skirt the consequences is not civil disobedience. Writing an opinion piece urging others to do the same does not cut it either (if everyone does it, the system will collapse and we'll institute better policies -- I am guessing the writer's area is fiction?)
May I suggest to other young and not-so-young readers mired in debt, as was until very recently...
Serve your country or state teaching or nursing or other. They have programs of loan forgiveness when you put your talent to use in service, although I doubt they will help if you simply want to drink camomile tea with your pet cat and write "feel my aura" poetry.
And to young readers considering heavy loans:
Go to a state school.
A summary of the rationalizations:
"My modest origins were a misfortune."
"When a system is immoral, it is not only not immoral, but moral to behave immorally in that system."
"Everyone is dead now, they won't care/notice."
"The fees were unjustly high."
"The balance was too much, beyond what I borrowed."
"Lucrative careers are immortal, self-disgusting, destructive of precious young life, and unhappy."
"The road to character requires money."
"Rich people default too."
There is injustice in our tax policy and, yes, the rich do have it easier, and, yes, many rich behave immorally (bailouts and bonuses anyone?). But an act of civil disobedience while actively endeavoring to skirt the consequences is not civil disobedience. Writing an opinion piece urging others to do the same does not cut it either (if everyone does it, the system will collapse and we'll institute better policies -- I am guessing the writer's area is fiction?)
May I suggest to other young and not-so-young readers mired in debt, as was until very recently...
Serve your country or state teaching or nursing or other. They have programs of loan forgiveness when you put your talent to use in service, although I doubt they will help if you simply want to drink camomile tea with your pet cat and write "feel my aura" poetry.
And to young readers considering heavy loans:
Go to a state school.
380
Irresponsible, rationalizing, disgusting, selfish, self-centered, self-serving behavior. I have absolutely no sympathy/empathy for this person. A total leech on society.
643
What was wrong with a community college or someplace that was affordable? Maybe not everyone needs to attend prestigious schools for a career in writing. Would your talents have shined through attending a less expensive school? We have a housing bubble that burst still visible in our rearview mirror. People were given mortgages they couldn't hope to repay with the misbegotten notion that they could sell their house and pay off the mortgage if things got tight. Didn't the amount of the loans you were taking out give you pause? How many highly paid authors do you know? Once again, because of the banks not bearing the risk of the loans they make, the cost will be foisted onto the rest of society. Well as it was pointed out in "Caddyshack", "The world needs ditch diggers too, Danny."
289
Good for you!
I had to declare bankruptcy about 20 years ago. It took me about 6 months to decide to do it. The determining factor in pushing me to make that decision was reading the business section of the paper every day.
It quickly became apparent to me that there was one set of rules for everyday people and another set of rules for wealthy people in business.
I decided to adopt the rules and morality of the business class.
I declared bankruptcy and have never regretted it.
Sure, had I gone without for 10 to 15 years I could have eventually paid off my debts. But why should I? Every day the people in the business class were walking away from debts, and in the process, ruining the lives of everyday people like me. Then they would wave the flag and say what a wonderful country is this America.
So this American decided it was time to get my share.
Within 7 years my credit was golden. To this day I receive a constant stream of invitations from business to loan me money.
So, good for you. I hope thousands of others follow in your footsteps. The student loan system is immoral. It needs to be torn down.
I had to declare bankruptcy about 20 years ago. It took me about 6 months to decide to do it. The determining factor in pushing me to make that decision was reading the business section of the paper every day.
It quickly became apparent to me that there was one set of rules for everyday people and another set of rules for wealthy people in business.
I decided to adopt the rules and morality of the business class.
I declared bankruptcy and have never regretted it.
Sure, had I gone without for 10 to 15 years I could have eventually paid off my debts. But why should I? Every day the people in the business class were walking away from debts, and in the process, ruining the lives of everyday people like me. Then they would wave the flag and say what a wonderful country is this America.
So this American decided it was time to get my share.
Within 7 years my credit was golden. To this day I receive a constant stream of invitations from business to loan me money.
So, good for you. I hope thousands of others follow in your footsteps. The student loan system is immoral. It needs to be torn down.
160
Congratulations, you did the right thing! It's the American higher education system that is unethical and actully outright un- American favoring only the rich and banks while betraying millions of young people to live up to their full potential. In this situation resistance is even a moral duty not only to yourself but also for the greater good and a better future for this country.
89
I went to an EDMC run college, & now I'm in a stupid amount of debt for a worthless degree. EDMC is being sued by the federal government for 11 BILLION dollars for fraud. Corinthian was able to file bankruptcy and discharge their debt. But what about the students? We cannot file bankruptcy on our debts. I have been unemployed or underemployed since I graduated. The only job I had in my field, I was underqualified for, my interns were more skilled than I was as a department manager, & I was subsequently fired after 3 months (two weeks before Christmas.) I am a mother, I cannot afford to work. What do I mean? Well, If I was to work, I would have to pay back over $1500 a month for my student loans, plus child care. I have only been able to find minimum wage positions, or positions that are no more than $10/hr. So I don't work. My childs father does, and I stay at home and watch my kid. I never wanted to be a stay at home mom. I am the kind of person who wants to work and wants to make an income for myself. Before attending college, my credit was awesome. I was always able to pay my bills and my rent, but I felt there was no room for advancement in my occupation, so I went to look for information at some schools. I went into the Illinois Institute of Arts Schaumburg to get info & after they lied and showed me their fraudulent materials, I signed myself up for a life of debt slavery. I filed bankruptcy, but couldn't discharge my loan debts, but the schools can discharge theirs
99
Why didn't you just go to a university you could actually afford?
(You know, like very good one where you actually wound up.)
Far easier to criticize unnamed people with "family connections" than your own stupid decision.
(You know, like very good one where you actually wound up.)
Far easier to criticize unnamed people with "family connections" than your own stupid decision.
338
I have lived this same reality. Thank you so much for giving eloquent voice to this too-common plight.
75
In most of the developed world college is extremely low-cost or free compared to the US. Maybe that's a hint that something needs to be done.
99
Does one really need 4+ years of college and then graduate school to become a - writer? Like, I learned to write by 8th grade or so. Even had decent grammar by then (BTW Mr. Siegel needs to understand when and when not to use "whose").
The fact is that undergraduate and graduate enrollment makes little sense if the programs do not involve necessarily cumulative learning, as in the natural sciences, history, economics etc. I always thought it farcical that the largest major in my alma mater was (& probably still is) - ready? - English!
On the other hand, I do agree with him that it's outrageous how the 1% class can choose crime with total impunity. Our judicial system is totally corrupt, no question about it, exactly as he describes. Got the money, do what you like, just pay the expensive lawyers and lobbyists.
The fact is that undergraduate and graduate enrollment makes little sense if the programs do not involve necessarily cumulative learning, as in the natural sciences, history, economics etc. I always thought it farcical that the largest major in my alma mater was (& probably still is) - ready? - English!
On the other hand, I do agree with him that it's outrageous how the 1% class can choose crime with total impunity. Our judicial system is totally corrupt, no question about it, exactly as he describes. Got the money, do what you like, just pay the expensive lawyers and lobbyists.
50
This is the first comment I've written on a NYT article or commentary. I'm puzzled why someone would write this article or why the NYT would publish it. Like others, I paid off my debt in full, as did my wife. Both of us are from middle-class families (my parents didn't go to college) and it took us years to pay off the loans. But, it was the right thing to do. If we were going to reap the benefits of a college education thanks to the US government, then we should pay off the debt we accrued. While I found the article offensive, I'm also disappointed in the NYT, a newspaper I love, for publishing it. Its value, as far as I can tell, is in the author clearing his conscience, rather than discussing the student loan system. Unfortunately, it feels narcissistic and self-serving, and diminishes the hard work and morality of all those people who have paid off their debts.
948
We moved to France for work and my wife wanted to finish her degree: she has a two-year AA degree but wanted a BA. She checked out online programs from reputable US schools. One, a well known University in NY, offered a program to finish. The cost would have been about $37,000, a deep discount to the in-person program. Then we decided to check local programs. Tuition for a public French University is 345 euros per year for people who have money. For more traditional students it is free, and sometimes comes with a living stipend. Private schools cost more, usually about 9,500 euros per year.
I paid off my student loans thanks to selling a computer program I wrote. So the loans were worth it .. right? Wrong. I'm a self-taught programmer (well, I actually had great teachers, just not in college). My worthless degree is in an entirely different field.
Student loans, even private loans the government has no liability for, can't be discharged in bankruptcy. They are immoral and also a macro and micro economic drag. They're a toxic product peddled to uneducated naive young people by institutions that promise to teach and who oftentimes know those loans will be a terrible burden. Even worse, they cause tuition inflation: the more loans available the higher tuition rises.
The "financial aid" offices of American schools are like something out of a dark myth, where young people have their futures siphoned off by immoral, greedy, self serving adults they wrongfully trust.
I paid off my student loans thanks to selling a computer program I wrote. So the loans were worth it .. right? Wrong. I'm a self-taught programmer (well, I actually had great teachers, just not in college). My worthless degree is in an entirely different field.
Student loans, even private loans the government has no liability for, can't be discharged in bankruptcy. They are immoral and also a macro and micro economic drag. They're a toxic product peddled to uneducated naive young people by institutions that promise to teach and who oftentimes know those loans will be a terrible burden. Even worse, they cause tuition inflation: the more loans available the higher tuition rises.
The "financial aid" offices of American schools are like something out of a dark myth, where young people have their futures siphoned off by immoral, greedy, self serving adults they wrongfully trust.
166
Yes, you're a deadbeat. I, too had student loans, as did my wife. It took us many years to pay them back, but we did. If you couldn't afford it, well....gee, maybe you shouldn't have assumed that massive debt for a liberal arts degree. You think? Not that a liberal arts degree isn't desirable or necessary, but one can be obtained just as readily at a University that doesn't cost 40K - 50K/year. SUNY Stony Brook is a good example.
450
You could have done what the rest of us working class kids did 40 years ago: forget about the expensive private school, go to a public university, manage costs with financial aid and a job, and then pay back whatever loans you accrue after graduation. You are worse than a deadbeat. You are a thief and an elitist thief at that.
684
The poor/middle class listen to a story meant for the rich. The old narrative of the American Dream persists even as the dynamic as shifted. When everyone has something it loses its value. Everyone has a degree now. What matters is from where. And if it's not from the bottom (University of Phoenix for example) or the top (an ivy league) it's just a gray area. College is college. I never got anything out of my liberal arts major that I didn't get better out of joining Americorps or traveling the country. When everyone reads books and blogs experience becomes the valued thing over intelligence.
Government is not the problem here. More college for more people is not the answer here. The problem is the outdated narrative that too many people follow. And if you hate that system than stop picking at the easy scapegoats.
Government is not the problem here. More college for more people is not the answer here. The problem is the outdated narrative that too many people follow. And if you hate that system than stop picking at the easy scapegoats.
33
It is time to change the laws and allow individual to write off student loans in bankruptcy. The loans are bad, and the process is corrupt, and needs to change.
On a side note, if I had a bunch of student loans, I would just move permanently overseas and start over.
On a side note, if I had a bunch of student loans, I would just move permanently overseas and start over.
64
I defaulted on my student loans as well. Today I am worth millions and James Franco has made a movie from my memoirs. The public has been sold a lot of bunk about the dangers of default and bankruptcy, but in fact all that happens is that the banks offer you new loans at a slightly higher interest rate.
48
Agreed, everyone should pay their debt.
Now the student loan program can kill ones ability to achieve the moral thing of paying those debts off. For myself, I went to a technical school using loans to get through to earn my degree in mechanical design technology. Graduated and the bottom fell out of engineering, period. NO JOBS... Fully licensed engineers could be hired for about $1 more per hour than someone with an associates degree. On to college for computer science while working full time. Dad's health goes downhill, return back to my home state to help with my parents... Back to tech school, get a degree in architecture. 2001, bottom falls out of architecture, get a degree in computer science.... Still working with this degree...
Raised a family during this time also.... Still paying those loans that are now 30 years old. Time off work, low wages while getting an education, family and other circumstances gave me some hardships... Today I still owe around $15k... Reality is, it is amazing how quickly those penalties add up when there are circumstances beyond your control and suddenly your buried and can't get out...
Right now I went the right way. I paid back, then problems struck, worked through tried to pay more. Faced a bankruptcy and asked for them to forgive my interest and I would pay in full within a year... They rejected my offer.
Today I can pay interest...
Tell me again how I should "pick cheaper" educational opportunities to help this situation?
Now the student loan program can kill ones ability to achieve the moral thing of paying those debts off. For myself, I went to a technical school using loans to get through to earn my degree in mechanical design technology. Graduated and the bottom fell out of engineering, period. NO JOBS... Fully licensed engineers could be hired for about $1 more per hour than someone with an associates degree. On to college for computer science while working full time. Dad's health goes downhill, return back to my home state to help with my parents... Back to tech school, get a degree in architecture. 2001, bottom falls out of architecture, get a degree in computer science.... Still working with this degree...
Raised a family during this time also.... Still paying those loans that are now 30 years old. Time off work, low wages while getting an education, family and other circumstances gave me some hardships... Today I still owe around $15k... Reality is, it is amazing how quickly those penalties add up when there are circumstances beyond your control and suddenly your buried and can't get out...
Right now I went the right way. I paid back, then problems struck, worked through tried to pay more. Faced a bankruptcy and asked for them to forgive my interest and I would pay in full within a year... They rejected my offer.
Today I can pay interest...
Tell me again how I should "pick cheaper" educational opportunities to help this situation?
87
I, too, came from a working class background and a family that did not have the means to send me to a four-year college. So I worked in construction and attended a community college for 2 years, did well enough to get a partial scholarship to complete my BA at a private university in Wisconsin. Another academic scholarship to grad school for my MA. I had $20K+ in student loans -- not a massive debt in 2015 terms, but pretty heavy for 1983. So I enlisted in the Army, and because of their loan repayment program my debt was gone within three years. I'm not suggesting the military is for everyone. But that course of action worked for me, and I've always been grateful for the opportunity to continue with my life (and career) without massive debt. And I ended up spending 30 years in the Army Reserves. There is a crisis in the economics of higher education. It is too expensive, with increases in tuition far outstripping inflation. Young people signing away their lives for a four-year degree and then starting their careers with staggering debt is not acceptable. There has to be a better way.
157
One of my sons, faced with a very similar decision coming out of high school, chose to join the Air Force for four years to gain the benefit of the GI Bill. He's now a sophomore at Columbia taking out very modest loans to cover the small funding gap his work during school and the GI Bill don't cover. He will be able to pay this back easily whatever job he decides to pursue. Like most of us, he made sacrifices to pursue his dreams while acting within the social contract that keeps our society going. The author is like a four year old throwing a tantrum, but instead of just bothering his parents, his bad behavior impacts us all. Disgusting.
387
Yes, you are a deadbeat, and your selfishness makes it harder for anyone else to get student loans so they can better themselves. Don't couch your lack of commitment or aversion to sacrifice in terms that glorify yourself as some type of revolutionary or patron saint (piety indeed). I am 52 years old and still repaying my debt. I will complete that task as soon as possible and feel good about it.
No doubt the system needs a real overhaul, and I worry about my kids and what we will do to get them all through college. However, I suspect that you would also complain about the tax burden that would be necessary to accomplish the task of providing 'free' higher education for all once you saw the reality and magnitude of the necessary contributions.
Nothing in this world is free.
No doubt the system needs a real overhaul, and I worry about my kids and what we will do to get them all through college. However, I suspect that you would also complain about the tax burden that would be necessary to accomplish the task of providing 'free' higher education for all once you saw the reality and magnitude of the necessary contributions.
Nothing in this world is free.
318
I am with you brother! The economy crashed when I graduated - I could only get low paying jobs. It was a terrible personal depression. When the economy picked up a bit a few years later, I was then told my degree was too old for me to be considered for employment. I have lived at the poverty level ever since and now MOHELA is calling my workplace. What's next - debtors prison by the nation that supposedly got rid of imprisoning debtors? In this wealthiest of nations, higher education should be FREE (placement still dependent on ones g.p.a.). What is 1/3+ of my income going to anyway? Why don't the wealthy pay 1/3+ of their income? That would be a level playing field.
73
The irony is that Mr. Siegel's talent for rationalization would have been a good match for a career in one of the big management consulting firms. In just a few years he could have paid off his loans, built up a nice nest egg, then gone off to pursue his “particular usefulness to society”.
148
If you had been sucked in by a for-profit "college" like the University of Phoenix or Corinthian Colleges, I might be sympathetic.
But instead, you made a poor choice in the first place to attend a private, over priced liberal arts college to pursue a degree that you knew would prepare you for a field that did not pay well. And it was only after your parents hit rock bottom did that you decided to attend a state college that was more affordable for your parents.
I wonder, given your age, did you even work while you were in college to help defray your tuition cost? There was a time when working part time while in college allowed people to graduate debt free. You appear to have gone to college during that time. Maybe you are simply a dead beat or just plain lazy, you lived off your parents in college and live off the government now.
So your story isn't about freeing yourself of crippling debt, it's about freeing yourself of years of bad choices and attending schools that were outside of your means.
Basically, you are no different than the many people who bought real estate at the top of the market knowing they really couldn't afford it. Those same people now believe the government should bail them out.
But instead, you made a poor choice in the first place to attend a private, over priced liberal arts college to pursue a degree that you knew would prepare you for a field that did not pay well. And it was only after your parents hit rock bottom did that you decided to attend a state college that was more affordable for your parents.
I wonder, given your age, did you even work while you were in college to help defray your tuition cost? There was a time when working part time while in college allowed people to graduate debt free. You appear to have gone to college during that time. Maybe you are simply a dead beat or just plain lazy, you lived off your parents in college and live off the government now.
So your story isn't about freeing yourself of crippling debt, it's about freeing yourself of years of bad choices and attending schools that were outside of your means.
Basically, you are no different than the many people who bought real estate at the top of the market knowing they really couldn't afford it. Those same people now believe the government should bail them out.
269
Maybe now that you have written five books and have a memoir on the way, you have the financial ability and can make some effort to return some money that you borrowed for your education. Perhaps this will be a way of rectifying your "lapse."
131
Wow. If you are not financially bankrupt, you certainly are morally bankrupt. You signed a contract and refused to honor it because life did not turn out exactly as you dreamed it would? We all live with our mistakes. Adults take responsibility. Whiny children pout and throw tantrums. Ick.
256
This woman is not making an appropriate choice by doing so. Very strong feelings on this. Yes, college is expensive, but to purposely not pay on a debt that one is responsible for is morally unacceptable. "I doubt that anyone can even find the promissory notes. The accrued interest, combined with the collection agencies’ opulent fees, is now several times the principal." We can not have everyone play this game. Borrow responsibly. We live in a country with high tuition and yes it hard, but considering this writer is writing for the New York Times, I bet she could afford the payments just like billions of other Americans.
59
You have succeeded in one arena:
Forfeiting on your student loans in private is bad
Doing so in the public form is breathtakingly arrogant... but I sense you get that a lot.
Just in passing - if enough people say 'enough' - there will be no revolution - it will just signal the end of all student loans - including for those folks with the ethos to actually remain a productive and honest member of society.
Forfeiting on your student loans in private is bad
Doing so in the public form is breathtakingly arrogant... but I sense you get that a lot.
Just in passing - if enough people say 'enough' - there will be no revolution - it will just signal the end of all student loans - including for those folks with the ethos to actually remain a productive and honest member of society.
102
Usury is always nasty and predictable in a predatory culture. Like guns and genocide. Muslims have a thing about not charging usury; and, some of us were raised to neither be a lender or borrower. I, for example, have never owned or used a credit card. But I'm the odd one, to be sure. However, back in the mid-eighties I did have a PEW grant in graduate college for a few thousand. There were still jobs available then, so a little debt was possible, even a good thing for some. I don't blame the author for escaping his loan. Hopefully, it was a lesson learned. I see his behavior as expedient and self-serving in a corrosive and corrupt culture that teaches us all to take care of number 1. That's what he did. Bravo!
26
Student loans should be dischargeable in bankruptcy after 7 years. It only makes sense. Even the Bible says debtors should get a fresh start. I definitely empathize with the author. It sounds like it's been a really long and torturous road to her decision to default. I don't think she lacks character at all; she did what her conscience dictated. She didn't murder anyone. If the Bible counsels forgiveness, so should the government with regard to these loans that some people simply cannot pay back.
31
If Germany and other countries can offer free university education, why can't we?
Compounding the student loan payback problem is that -- while student debt is increasing -- starting salaries for college graduates are dropping.
In 2000, college graduates earned an inflation-adjusted average of $18.41 an hour. Today, that figure is $17.94, a 2.5 percent drop, even as student loan debt has mushroomed.
Financial planners consistently underscore the importance of starting to save for retirement in one's 20s. But how are young people supposed to save for a house and retirement while meeting living expenses and paying student debt -- all on starting wages that are declining? Something has to give.
Compounding the student loan payback problem is that -- while student debt is increasing -- starting salaries for college graduates are dropping.
In 2000, college graduates earned an inflation-adjusted average of $18.41 an hour. Today, that figure is $17.94, a 2.5 percent drop, even as student loan debt has mushroomed.
Financial planners consistently underscore the importance of starting to save for retirement in one's 20s. But how are young people supposed to save for a house and retirement while meeting living expenses and paying student debt -- all on starting wages that are declining? Something has to give.
58
I couldn't afford to go away to a liberal arts college either. Know what I did? I lived at home, worked and went to Queens College, CUNY as a commuter student. Then after graduation and getting a job, I worked and got tuition reimbursement from my employer, worked my butt off and graduated from NYU with a MBA in 2 years and no debt. There are ways to do it if you are responsible and don't act like an immature child. Shame on you!
185
What a stupid thing to do, give up on repaying your student loans. There is no debt forgiveness, no bankruptcy option, and no running away from this type of debt. If you choose to borrow money to pay for college, you are obligated to pay it back. Why are college students putting themselves in these types of situations? There are plenty of colleges that are less expensive.
62
My wife and I are people of modest origins, and thanks to deadbeats like you we have to pick up the cost of your bad debt through higher taxes. You remind me of a man I used to work with who took out a car loan for a pile of junk VW Beetle, and then whined when the bill collectors came calling because he chose to spend his money on booze instead of making car payments. It's too bad your education can't be repossessed like a car can.
You chose to go to a liberal arts college to get a worthless degree, and now you blame everyone else for your bad choices. If you wanted a free education, you should have gone to a Norwegian university where that country is stupid enough to educate anyone in the world for free paid for by the Norse taxpayer.
Grow up, the world doesn't owe you anything.
You chose to go to a liberal arts college to get a worthless degree, and now you blame everyone else for your bad choices. If you wanted a free education, you should have gone to a Norwegian university where that country is stupid enough to educate anyone in the world for free paid for by the Norse taxpayer.
Grow up, the world doesn't owe you anything.
111
I cannot condone not even trying to pay off debts.
However, something is also very seriously wrong with education in the US when a humble education is impossible for a citizen to receive if he/she sucks in some pride, works and goes to school.
However, something is also very seriously wrong with education in the US when a humble education is impossible for a citizen to receive if he/she sucks in some pride, works and goes to school.
17
"I am sharply aware of the strongest objection to my lapse into default. If everyone acted as I did, chaos would result. The entire structure of American higher education would change."
Kant's Categorical Imperative is a bludgeon that institutions enjoy wielding for their own ends. It is ironic that it can also be used by their victims. Let's not just stop paying back student loans, let's all stop paying taxes too. Burn it all to the ground.
Kant's Categorical Imperative is a bludgeon that institutions enjoy wielding for their own ends. It is ironic that it can also be used by their victims. Let's not just stop paying back student loans, let's all stop paying taxes too. Burn it all to the ground.
21
I worked through college. That was back in the 1960's. Tuition at CCNY was non-existent. We just had to pay a couple of hundred dollars per semester in fees. The current system is worse than exploitative--it is the bankers eating the seed corn of our future.
85
After making a series of poor life decisions concerning your college choice (too expensive, beyond your family's means), educational major (English lit?), and unwilling to get a job that would support you and your obligation to repay your college loans, you've thrown in the towel and decided that all non-wealthy taxpayers should bail you out. You fit the description of the proverbial dead beat who thinks the world owes you a living. I went to law school and graduated in a year that coincided with the largest economic recession since the "Great Depression." Despite my massive educational debt, lack of a job practicing law, and lack of any full-time permanent job, I am still today repaying my law school loans made possible by my determination to avoid bankruptcy and financial failure by taking any work available at the time. I worked three temp jobs averaging a 12-14 hour work day for two years until the economy improved enough to allow me to find a modest full time job again with benefits. I have never been able to realize my dream of practicing law to assist individuals needing a legal advocate, yet I have managed to stay gainfully employed in something I personally find mearningless but that pays my bills including the large law school loan. There is no excuse for abandoning your obligation to the US taxpayers to repay your educational debt unless you had the misfortune of becoming physically unable to working. Laziness isn't an excuse!
130
You know, they just print that stuff--money. If they print too much, inflation will follow; if they print too little, deflation will occur. The Federal Reserve Board has their hand on the controls, I think.
Let's not get all out of shape about this stuff, it's only money.
Let's not get all out of shape about this stuff, it's only money.
13
No, Mr. Siegel, one doesn't need to go to college to become a writer. If you have the talent to begin with, your time is better spent honing it rather than taking courses that bear absolutely no relation to your "dream."
43
While I realize a lot of what he said was in a joking manor(including the marrying comment) I also realize that student loans have crippled young people today. getting a college education used to ensure your ability to get a higher paying job but that is no longer the case. millions of college graduates are unable to find employment in their chosen fields. Also, the cost of going to college even state ones has just simply gone out of sight. Many families struggle and yet they want their children to be able to get an education. The answer is to make college more affordable. And also those who offer student loans should require some 'counseling to the student' and parents to determine the student is making the right choices so their debt is not over whelming but something they can pay off after graduation. To get a reverse mortgage in NC you have to go through counseling first, to get a student loan no such requirement. So what seems like a good idea maybe the worst decision you can make. More students than ever go to college every year and tuition and fees just keep going up.
22
How nice that you, as a 57 year old successful author (as a result of the college and post graduate degrees you earned) should decide it's ok to lay the financial responsibility onto someone else because you would rather spend your money elsewhere. You are a deadbeat whose actions simply contribute to the economic state you despise and write about regularly. Let's all go get a fancy education while living it up and not working for it, then ignore the costs as being "too expensive". Lots of us come from a lower to middle class upbringing and we still teach ourselves and our children to be responsible adults.
157
Lee chose the college. Lee chose to get the loans to attend that college. Those loans were guaranteed by you and by me -- the taxpayers of this nation. Like Lee, I took out student loans to cover the shortfall between my scholarships and the actual cost of the college I attended (University of the Pacific, and, later, UCLA). But unlike Lee, I repaid every penny of that debt.
I can understand some of where Lee is coming from. The reason college costs so much is because of the ease of getting loans. As a result, college tuition has increased over the years at a rate several times that of the average rate of inflation, because colleges know that if they raise their tuition and fees, the Government will cover the increase, and students will grumble but get the necessary loans. Because poor students get fee waivers and special scholarships, and the rich can afford the cost without a loan, that reduces any child of the middle class to indentured servitude for some period of their life. They are the ones who are overwhelmingly paying for the fee wavers given to the poor. And everyone is paying for the inflated salaries of academia.
Kind of sad, but this is the world the progressives have built for us.
I can understand some of where Lee is coming from. The reason college costs so much is because of the ease of getting loans. As a result, college tuition has increased over the years at a rate several times that of the average rate of inflation, because colleges know that if they raise their tuition and fees, the Government will cover the increase, and students will grumble but get the necessary loans. Because poor students get fee waivers and special scholarships, and the rich can afford the cost without a loan, that reduces any child of the middle class to indentured servitude for some period of their life. They are the ones who are overwhelmingly paying for the fee wavers given to the poor. And everyone is paying for the inflated salaries of academia.
Kind of sad, but this is the world the progressives have built for us.
27
"I am sharply aware of the strongest objection to my lapse into default. If everyone acted as I did, chaos would result. The entire structure of American higher education would change."
And it needs to change, because what we have now is a vestige of a different time and a fraudulent system that enriches everyone but the people taking on the most risk. But everyone is profiting too much to do anything about it, except waxing poetic about "the duty to pay debt" and "back in my day I worked six jobs.." negating the realities of now.
As usual, Boomers win and everyone else loses. Thanks gang.
And it needs to change, because what we have now is a vestige of a different time and a fraudulent system that enriches everyone but the people taking on the most risk. But everyone is profiting too much to do anything about it, except waxing poetic about "the duty to pay debt" and "back in my day I worked six jobs.." negating the realities of now.
As usual, Boomers win and everyone else loses. Thanks gang.
36
It's not the 'banksters' that will have to pay for this. Rather it is being offset by other students who take responsibility for their loans.
I would say this is a perfect example of why some people think Millennials dont take personal responsibility.
I would say this is a perfect example of why some people think Millennials dont take personal responsibility.
50
Congratulations on the wisdom and courage to walk off the plantation. I see that that the proud serfs who stay are quite angry with you. That is to be expected.
59
So I paid back my $15,000 in student loans in time to qualify for a mortgage, which I also paid faithfully.
My goal was always to support myself and maintain financial independence, so I pursued a career (technology) that paid well. Even though I wanted to, I didn't drop out and write the great American novel--and now I'm glad I didn't.
By working, I learned discipline, focus, and the ability to push myself to achieve goals.
Guess I'm a chump, huh?
My goal was always to support myself and maintain financial independence, so I pursued a career (technology) that paid well. Even though I wanted to, I didn't drop out and write the great American novel--and now I'm glad I didn't.
By working, I learned discipline, focus, and the ability to push myself to achieve goals.
Guess I'm a chump, huh?
105
Ah, but here is the flaw in the argument:
"It struck me as absurd that one could amass crippling debt as a result, not of drug addiction or reckless borrowing and spending,"
The author did indeed amass crippling debt as a function of reckless borrowing and spending.
He didn't borrow that money from some amorphous 'bank', he borrowed if from people like you and me - hard working people who put their life savings into that bank. That was the money that he borrowed and now refuses to repay.
And why does he refuse to repay it?
Because, more than anything else, he just doesn't want to.
When he (and his mother) borrowed the money from us, he undertook an obligation to repay it. Time for him to grow up, even 40 years. Grow up.
"It struck me as absurd that one could amass crippling debt as a result, not of drug addiction or reckless borrowing and spending,"
The author did indeed amass crippling debt as a function of reckless borrowing and spending.
He didn't borrow that money from some amorphous 'bank', he borrowed if from people like you and me - hard working people who put their life savings into that bank. That was the money that he borrowed and now refuses to repay.
And why does he refuse to repay it?
Because, more than anything else, he just doesn't want to.
When he (and his mother) borrowed the money from us, he undertook an obligation to repay it. Time for him to grow up, even 40 years. Grow up.
117
I think all the feel sorry debtors ought to listen to the Dave Ramsey Show. He tells grads: your first responsibility is to pay off your loans. You borrowed the money. Maybe you made bad choices but it's yours to pay. And every day people call in who buckled down for 2, 3, 5 years, living like students, working 2 jobs, and paid off their 60,000 or 100,000 that they borrowed because they were too good to go to a school they could afford. I do not feel sorry for Mr. Siegel. He's kidding himself. I feel sorry for the kids suckered into for profit false promise schools, but even they have a debt to pay. I'm a writer, too, and I couldn't "afford" until I was in my 40's, and that's when i finally was able to build a career. But I don't owe anybody a dime, and I resent owning the debt of all the poor me students who didn't work while in school, didn't go to a state school, didn't settle for what was reasonable in their case. This is one sorry article. If it had been about the bad lending practices, about how we might making paying back easier; or if it had been about how choosing a school you can afford is a better route and you wish you had; or if it was about how hard you had to work to pay what you owed, and you didn't have a car or Netflix, I'd applaud it. But, I'm an artist, I deserve better?
59
The essay is great until near the end when we get virtually no detail about the aftermath of defaulting for the writer. "Dont be afraid" whatever that means and it sounds like something that would be said in a Self Help book.
The writer makes some good points but I feel like we are getting half of the story.
The writer makes some good points but I feel like we are getting half of the story.
17
Or you may pay in the future, perhaps? http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/24/news/economy/social-security-student-deb...
1
The author asks, "Am I a deadbeat? In the eyes of the law I am." No, you're a deadbeat in the eyes of anyone who actually takes responsibility for their decisions. It's called being an adult. That you see your default as legally, but not morally, wrong is downright baffling. It's not morally wrong to live beyond your means and then walk away from the bill? That's a nice lesson for my children. I guess you believe your literary contributions, your "particular usefulness to society," more than cover your actual debts or you wouldn't be broadcasting your behavior in the New York Times. Sickening.
188
These were loans that were taken out when the author was 18, hardly an adult. This is the problem with student loans - people get them when they're still children and have high hopes and dreams for lucrative careers. Once we actually become adults we realize the stupidity of some of these choices and have to deal with the consequences.
6
Mr. Siegel, repaying one's student loans is not "the road to character." It is an indicator of character. Yours, sadly, is blemished--and now the whole world knows it. You are clearly not a man of honor--all the more so for your foul attempt to convince others to follow your disreputable path.
59
I found this to be one of the most appalling and intellectually shallow op-eds in years at the Times. Yes, higher education is too expensive, but several of the author's points really rankled me:
1) Taking a job that was not in his chosen field was somehow beneath him. Welcome to reality, sir! Do you sneer too at the waiters and waitresses who serve you your food?
2) Marry someone with their credit score in mind. Did he really write that?
I can understand what you have done, Mr. Siegel. But, you should have the courage to admit that there is nothing noble in taking something and not paying for it. After all, if I shoplifted your 5 books because I didn't want to work at my regular job just to pay for it, would you support that too? If you can truly answer "yes", then at least I can give you honorable mention for consistency.
1) Taking a job that was not in his chosen field was somehow beneath him. Welcome to reality, sir! Do you sneer too at the waiters and waitresses who serve you your food?
2) Marry someone with their credit score in mind. Did he really write that?
I can understand what you have done, Mr. Siegel. But, you should have the courage to admit that there is nothing noble in taking something and not paying for it. After all, if I shoplifted your 5 books because I didn't want to work at my regular job just to pay for it, would you support that too? If you can truly answer "yes", then at least I can give you honorable mention for consistency.
110
"Self-disgust and lifelong unhappiness, destroying a precious young life — all this is a small price to pay for meeting your student loan obligations."
News flash: Your life is not "precious." And if this is an example of your writing style, you'd be better off working in a shoe store or wherever it was that you rejected as beneath your talents.
You are a deadbeat. Millions from circumstances like yours have spent two decades repaying their loans. Millions who have character, something that is not--as you so desperately pretend--built on "family money."
Congratulations to the Department of Education for doing its job. And, by the way, if you went to school 30-40 years ago, the tuition was not exorbitant and the interest rates were reasonable. Don't try riding on the backs of kids today who have serious debt burdens.
Stop using and abusing so many adjectives and adverbs.
News flash: Your life is not "precious." And if this is an example of your writing style, you'd be better off working in a shoe store or wherever it was that you rejected as beneath your talents.
You are a deadbeat. Millions from circumstances like yours have spent two decades repaying their loans. Millions who have character, something that is not--as you so desperately pretend--built on "family money."
Congratulations to the Department of Education for doing its job. And, by the way, if you went to school 30-40 years ago, the tuition was not exorbitant and the interest rates were reasonable. Don't try riding on the backs of kids today who have serious debt burdens.
Stop using and abusing so many adjectives and adverbs.
97
I found myself getting more and more upset as I read this "opinion". You have taken out loans and attended college and now find yourself unable to repay them. You find fault with everything and everyone but yourself with your twisted logic: your modest means and millionaires paying only 14% effective tax rates to name only two. You then provide advice on how to navigate through life after officially becoming a deadbeat. I am equally disgusted with the NY Times for printing this.
103
Wow give away higher education for free?
How about our own president saying after he was elected that he was still paying off his college loans many years after graduation.
I still have a problem understanding how people get loans to increase their earning potential and get high paying jobs and then default on the repayment of the money that enabled them to do so because it is hard to do so. And who can take away an education?
I know many a person who did just that and proudly tell of how they beat the government out of money by defaulting on the loan to do so. But when I ask the question of them "WHO IS THE GOVERNMENT" they look at me and say "Big Business, Corporations, and Rich People". And yes they are partly correct.
But those mom and dads who both work to educate, cloth and feed those children would disagree with you about taxes they pay to educate you the person who is defaulting on your loans because you disagree with being charged for getting a higher education that will give you a advantage in getting a job or career with a greater salary than most receive. And by not repaying the loan you are denying their children of an education.
You are the person who promised to repay those mom and dads the dollars they borrowed to get that American dream of a better job. But who will suffer? The borrower, No. The Corporation NO. We already know the Corporations the rich, big business, do not pay their fair share of tax so who? Those Mom and Dads! THINK!!
How about our own president saying after he was elected that he was still paying off his college loans many years after graduation.
I still have a problem understanding how people get loans to increase their earning potential and get high paying jobs and then default on the repayment of the money that enabled them to do so because it is hard to do so. And who can take away an education?
I know many a person who did just that and proudly tell of how they beat the government out of money by defaulting on the loan to do so. But when I ask the question of them "WHO IS THE GOVERNMENT" they look at me and say "Big Business, Corporations, and Rich People". And yes they are partly correct.
But those mom and dads who both work to educate, cloth and feed those children would disagree with you about taxes they pay to educate you the person who is defaulting on your loans because you disagree with being charged for getting a higher education that will give you a advantage in getting a job or career with a greater salary than most receive. And by not repaying the loan you are denying their children of an education.
You are the person who promised to repay those mom and dads the dollars they borrowed to get that American dream of a better job. But who will suffer? The borrower, No. The Corporation NO. We already know the Corporations the rich, big business, do not pay their fair share of tax so who? Those Mom and Dads! THINK!!
21
You are a deadbeat, as is everyone else who takes on a debt they have no realistic plan to repay.
70
Those self-entitled jerks that politicians are always complaining about? Case in point. While you, Mr. Siegel, may feel that you didn't get any value for the money you borrowed and spent, you are still legally (not to mention morally) bound to repay those loans. If you don't feel that the money was well spent, then you need to learn to make better financial decisions. All you have shown (and shared with the world) is that you are narcissistic and lack integrity.
You comment that corporations do this all the time and that there are no consequences. That may be true but that has no bearing on the fact that you borrowed money and you chose not to repay it. According to the blurb at the end of the article, you have published five books and are working on a memoir. Quit being a whiny jerk and pay back those loans.
I also went to a small, liberal arts college and majored in biology. I didn't continue past my BA and left the workforce to raise a family (which certainly didn't require a degree). Even so, I paid back every dime of my student loan. In 2004, I went back to get a Master's degree. I got another loan and paid it back. That's what ADULTS do.
Mr. Siegel, I hope you will quite sponging off the taxpayers like me and grow up. YOU and YOUR behavior choices are one of the problems in this country.
You comment that corporations do this all the time and that there are no consequences. That may be true but that has no bearing on the fact that you borrowed money and you chose not to repay it. According to the blurb at the end of the article, you have published five books and are working on a memoir. Quit being a whiny jerk and pay back those loans.
I also went to a small, liberal arts college and majored in biology. I didn't continue past my BA and left the workforce to raise a family (which certainly didn't require a degree). Even so, I paid back every dime of my student loan. In 2004, I went back to get a Master's degree. I got another loan and paid it back. That's what ADULTS do.
Mr. Siegel, I hope you will quite sponging off the taxpayers like me and grow up. YOU and YOUR behavior choices are one of the problems in this country.
106
Moral and ethical issues aside, there's no evidence here of great writing skills. Oh, the irony!
76
No one cracks me up as much as writers who decide to become writers to complain and preach. Having an English degree doesn't make you a smarty pants in anything but the English language.
35
What a useless individual you are. You incurred a debt. You knowingly took the money from the bank. Not once but twice you took other people's money to fund your lifestyle - college. Now you tell the people who lent you the money to stuff it, you are not going to pay them. I hope the articles you write get published and the company tells you to stuff it, they are not paying you. You are a result of 50+ years of a Liberal education whereby too many believe they owe nothing to any body and deserve to live as they like. No ethics, morals or honor. You are a member of the entitled generation at its worst. Just yesterday we had the remembrance of the men who landed on the beaches of Normandy in the attempt to free a continent from oppression. You would have been counted int he "I don't want to go and do that. But when you finish see what is there for me to take for myself." What a sorry excuse for a person.
84
There is the option of service to your country via serving in the military for a few short years to either earn mony for college or to pay off your student loans. Of course this would involve serving a purpose other than your own self interest. It might also mean learning something about the world outside of your cloister. Sacrifice for your country? Nah! What's the fun in that.
67
What a sad little man you are. You signed and accepted the terms of the contract. You were given the money because you agreed to the terms. There were, and are today, other options to taking out the crippling loans. In your particular circumstances, according to what you have written, would have made you eligible for grants and what about work study programs? They were bountiful when you took out your loan. This is one of the most arrogant and privileged pieces of drivel I have ever read on this subject. I'm 50, on disability with a terminal illness, and I pay my loan each and every mont, because I took the loan and accepted the terms. Buyers remorse is no excuse for being a deadbeat. And you, with 5 books and a sixth on the way, and national articles as laid out in your bio, have ample means to repay what you owe at this time. You think your being a deadbeat is somehow a noble cause. You are sadly mistaken, all it makes you is a delusional deadbeat that makes rates higher for those who will pay back what they owe...
167
He borrowed money. Didn't pay it back because he wanted a job that's fun and didn't want to be beholden to a debt. And rationalizes he living daylights out of it. Now preaches this is the best path. I really hope you don't raise children.
157
As someone who took out numerous loans and repaid them all in full I find this article absolutely disgusting. Wiki says you live in Monclair, NJ and received not one but two degrees from Columbia. You also appear to be otherwise accomplished. Pay your debt, what kind of example are you to your two children? Not a good one, in my opinion. Omg and the advice to find a credit worthy spouse! Beyond words. P.S. Darling, word is you are 57, I would not count on social security, I hope they garish every last dime.
175
I think this piece describes the situation much better: America as Ponzi scheme. http://www.salon.com/2015/06/05/america_is_a_ponzi_scheme_a_commencement...
15
This is reprehensible, and I'm dismayed that you can write about this to the world. I was one of those unfortunate souls who struggled to pay back my loans. I worked as a waitress at night to do it - I wasn't able to immediately follow my life's dreams, because I had BORROWED money. Hence, I had a responsibility to repay it. You can thank all of us with a conscience for fulfilling our obligations.
122
"It struck me as absurd that one could amass crippling debt as a result, not of drug addiction or reckless borrowing and spending, but of going to college."
No. You amassed crippling debt because you chose to attend a college that apparently necessitated you taking out excessive college loans .... not just going to college. You might have chosen a less expensive school whose debt requirement you might have better been able to manage, something thousands of us did to avoid the very situation you found yourself in at the end.
No. You amassed crippling debt because you chose to attend a college that apparently necessitated you taking out excessive college loans .... not just going to college. You might have chosen a less expensive school whose debt requirement you might have better been able to manage, something thousands of us did to avoid the very situation you found yourself in at the end.
72
Morally and legally reprehensible. Absolutely correct.
45
Question: since Mr Siegel's credentials -- gained through his attendance at a prestigious college -- (and apparently some talent) have allowed him to have "written for Harper's, The Nation, The New Republic, The New Yorker, The New York Review of Books, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Slate, and many other publications" (per Wikipedia), not to mention having published five books, he is clearly not struggling financially now. What, other than perhaps a sense of extraordinary entitlement and disregard for ethical behavior, is preventing him from paying back his student loans now?
His is not an example worthy of emulation.
His is not an example worthy of emulation.
191
I have lots of sympathy for students today, but not much for the author. Tuition, room and board at a private school were around $5k in 1975. The author does not mention how much debt he had, or how many years he was actually in school or if he had a fellowship/TA-ship during grad school, etc.
4
You are setting a very poor example for others with student loan obligations. This is a form of thievery and I would consider this a felony. Others have been locked up for doing far less. Don't you have a conscience? Your sense of entitlement is horrifying and what do you plan to do next? Default on your home mortgage loans? Just wondering.
61
If you go the loans ending 30 years ago, they were still reasonable. Also, I believe you could have discharged them in bankruptcy until sometime in the eighties.
You had a decent choices before you. Today's students do not.
You are going much too easy on yourself by equating your situation with today's.
You had a decent choices before you. Today's students do not.
You are going much too easy on yourself by equating your situation with today's.
57
So he took out Loans to an expensive school where he studied a vocation that doesn't pay sufficiently and then he complains that he can't pay back? It's a long chain of entitlement (It was not your right to study at an expansive school nor your right to study whatever it was you did) that ends with a decision that you don't feel that you deserve to pay the consequences. Well done. Perhaps you should have just skipped the whole thing and demand that the government just GIVE you money every month.
Americans are guaranteed the right to act freely; they seem to have forgotten that you are not free from the consequences of those actions. Shameful example of entitlement.
Americans are guaranteed the right to act freely; they seem to have forgotten that you are not free from the consequences of those actions. Shameful example of entitlement.
50
Well, well. You made a bad decision in choosing an expensive private school over a state school and left the bill on the taxpayers doorstep. The fact that much of the student loan industry is morally bankrupt doesn't mitigate your own moral transgression. The bottom line is that you owe a debt to the taxpayers who helped finance your education and should seek to repay it in some way.
Your debt was written off long ago and the debt collectors seeking money today have already factored in the odds that they'll never get money from you. It's unsatisfying to pay them. However, I'd like you to settle with me. I'm one of those taxpayers who helped finance your education and I'd like you to pay me back.
Let's forget about the dollars and agree that paying them back now would be pointless. Instead let me suggest that you do some sort of community service and explicitly tell people you're doing it as a way of repaying the debt you defaulted on. Then maybe you can write about it and set a positive example for others who have defaulted or are considering doing so.
Your debt was written off long ago and the debt collectors seeking money today have already factored in the odds that they'll never get money from you. It's unsatisfying to pay them. However, I'd like you to settle with me. I'm one of those taxpayers who helped finance your education and I'd like you to pay me back.
Let's forget about the dollars and agree that paying them back now would be pointless. Instead let me suggest that you do some sort of community service and explicitly tell people you're doing it as a way of repaying the debt you defaulted on. Then maybe you can write about it and set a positive example for others who have defaulted or are considering doing so.
32
There are many points to quibble with in this article, but none of the detractors consider that the situation students faced 30 or more years ago are just not the same as today. The usual cranks are out in droves here saying they worked hard and paid mine back so you must too. To those people I ask:
Have you spent the majority of waking hours doing something that does not turn you stomach or use your body or mind like a machine or laboring farm animal?
Do you make enough to pay your loans and save for a rainy day and retirement?
Do you make enough for your kids to be able to get the education they will need to do the same for their children?
Have you been plumb lucky to have not experienced any one of many events that will knock you down financially like an accident or illness that exceeds the resources of insurance and what you earn; loss of a job in a field that has disappeared or now compensated at minimum wage because there are so many competing for the work?
And last, have you made mistakes that you were fortunate enough to have had some help recovering from?
Being able to say no to any of these makes you a lucky person through no effort on your part and profit from it. Most of those who default cannot say the same.
Have you spent the majority of waking hours doing something that does not turn you stomach or use your body or mind like a machine or laboring farm animal?
Do you make enough to pay your loans and save for a rainy day and retirement?
Do you make enough for your kids to be able to get the education they will need to do the same for their children?
Have you been plumb lucky to have not experienced any one of many events that will knock you down financially like an accident or illness that exceeds the resources of insurance and what you earn; loss of a job in a field that has disappeared or now compensated at minimum wage because there are so many competing for the work?
And last, have you made mistakes that you were fortunate enough to have had some help recovering from?
Being able to say no to any of these makes you a lucky person through no effort on your part and profit from it. Most of those who default cannot say the same.
27
Why do I feel anger at this writer? Well for one I see this individual like one of many who violate reasonable social norms [in this case paying off obligation] and then justify their actions by pointing to others who violate theirs as well. . But as many here have pointed out you have made the world a little more difficult for those who seek loans after you. Your world class rationalizations does not change what you already imply you are: a deadbeat.
52
It is one thing if you can't pay, it is another if you just don't feel like it. Nobody held a gun to your head and made you take out a loan. What he doesn't mention is that the government backstops all these student loans so it isn't some "long defunct bank" that is eating these losses from deadbeats like him, it is you and I as taxpayers. This is a person with zero character, a complete parasite on society. Certainly not someone to be respected.
What are the five books that he authored? Probably "How to be a Low-life" Volumes one through five.
What are the five books that he authored? Probably "How to be a Low-life" Volumes one through five.
52
He just forgot to add the part that if you are not self-employed and like most people work for a paycheck to live, file taxes each year, and need a bank account for direct deposit and paying your bills, the bank/debtor will get a judgement against you and garnish your pay through your employer, freeze your bank accounts, and seize your tax returns. You will never own a house, qualify for another loan, or be able to buy a new car. And if your student loan is owed to the federal government, there is no escape from them unless you live wholly under the table, completely dependent on that spouse or significant other with good credit and a good job the author wants you to latch onto for support, and they never leave you for all your life. What he describes is an ideal situation attainable by very few. A better choice would be to get the credit cards, save as much as you can, and leave the country for good.
22
No, a better choice would be for the cowering sheep to grow the nards to stand up to this industrial money-maker for the banks...and this is just one of their schemes. banks need to be broken up and brought to heel worldwide, and their profit-making turned to the public good, rather than its ill.
The author is correct; if everyone just defaulted, the entire system (including the subsystems you mention) would simply collapse of the weight. Change would happen immediately.
The author is correct; if everyone just defaulted, the entire system (including the subsystems you mention) would simply collapse of the weight. Change would happen immediately.
6
Before people start doing that, what this writer fails to mention is that they will garnish 15% of your wages at just about every job you hold as long as your income is being reported and there is backup withholding. Not to mention every tax return gets confiscated by the dept of Ed student loan collectors, which changes every 6 months or so, and who will refuse to work with you in a repayment schedule by giving you the run around. It's not worth it to default. Consolidate and get the longest repayment term possible, but for cripe's sake, don't default! They're worse than the mafia in how they jack up your life!
16
It's not that I disagree with how ridiculous college costs, or the fact that students and their parents have to assume some serious debt to get a viable degree. And the horrid practices of loan collections. Or the fact that corporate America makes hay with debt. Yeah, the world is unfair. But really, is that what this article is about? Isn't it really about someone who thought they were entitled to get or waste every gift their parents gave them? This person laid debt on her mother and then acts like it's someone else's fault. Now they freeload off a spouse. He or she is a singular piece of work. There have been plenty of folks who took soul sucking jobs, not to pay student loans off, but to feed their kids and support a family. But being far to high for such a sacrifice, they defaulted on loans (which means the government absorbed those loans by the way - that's you and me taxpayers.) Well, whether you got your degree, oh wait, you didn't. Anyway, you lack character and you are a first class D bag. May you get all you are entitled to.
29
Perhaps this published author could take some of the proceeds from his many published books and pay some of his debt.
66
I agree that the system is broken and morally reprehensible. But Lee Siegel, don't think for a second the Department of Justice won't sue you to collect, even all these years later. If you have any income the government can garnish, or any assets the government can put a lien on, they'll sue -- and all they need to prove you owe the money is your original note. And I guaranty they DO have it. People get sued on government loans they defaulted on decades ago all the time. There is no statute of limitations for federal student loan debt lawsuits. And when it comes time to collect Social Security, your checks will be garnished. The government doesn't even have to file a lawsuit against you to do this! I support you whole-heartedly in your righteous rebellion, but I also worry that you haven't really escaped the worst consequences of default yet...
35
It sounds to me that the writer of this article is merely looking for someone to say I don't blame you for not paying. Of course not paying back money you borrowed now seems to be the thing to do. It's a shame we no longer have a sense of self respect and feel we should pay back what we borrow but articles like this endorse the feel good and it's all about me society we live in now.
14
"Maybe the problem was that I had reached beyond my lower-middle-class origins and taken out loans to attend a small private college to begin with." Sounds right to me. How about a state school or community college to start with, or a private school with comparable tuition— they're out there, and were there forty years ago, when you and I went to school. As to the collection companies, those are taxpayers dollars they are collecting— I helped pay for your default. I agree that since the time I went to college the terms for loans have become ridiculously outrageous, and government support for higher education shamefully small, but you made a deal. Maybe you should have taken that job in " finance, or some other lucrative career" until you paid down your debts, and then started writing. There is no shame, and considerable reward in self image, in that.
27
All part of their agenda. Banks seem to be at the root of most of today's problems. If not all.
6
So, this author of five books does not see the irony in not paying for the education that has given him his vocation? Where does he think the money comes from for his education? It comes from the rest of us - those of us who pay OUR student loans, and those of us who pays taxes. Why did the Times give a platform to this deadbeat?
43
Nowhere in your whiny rant do you indicate you are working to make college more affordable--nowhere do you challenge state legislators and taxpayers to agree to the social compact that once had states supporting higher education with reasonable subsidies, making it more affordable for all. I take from this that you are a highly selfish person with a gargantuan sense of entitlement combined with an attitude of personal injury big as a Frisco seal. As one who grew up poor, yet nonetheless managed to pay off her student loans for three degrees and, after some personal sacrifice, achieve my dream job (with a humanities degree) I buy and read a lot of books. But I won't be buying or reading the work of someone so completely self-absorbed but yet completely un-self-aware as you.
48
It amuses me to no need the level of arrogance the author exhibits. I took out loans and took a job that I knew would allow me to be responsible and pay them off. I was really smart about it and paid what I owed off. Then I took a job I love. Spending a few years being responsible instead of being an idealist paid off for me. What you are suggesting is falsely representing yourself. We are supposed to hold ourselves to a decent standard. You Sir, did not do that here.
31
Companies declare bankruptcy all the time and stiff their creditors. Where is the outcry when that happens? Debt has nothing to do with morality. If the system is set up to allow people to borrow huge amounts of money with no analysis of whether they can pay it back....then whose problem is it? The borrower or the lender? Seems like the lender has the problem.
29
"Someone with character would have paid off those loans and let the chips fall where they may." Yup. They were loans, not grants. There's a word for you; thief.
55
Great.
Who do you think is going to pay the difference? The need for the revenue is still there, it is not simply "written off." Your reckless behavior will result in everyone else paying more, including the poor that you claim to care so much about.
For shame. Your precious college education was a waste of money, for you have learned nothing.
Who do you think is going to pay the difference? The need for the revenue is still there, it is not simply "written off." Your reckless behavior will result in everyone else paying more, including the poor that you claim to care so much about.
For shame. Your precious college education was a waste of money, for you have learned nothing.
23
What's missing? The amount owed and the interest rate. Somehow I think that disclosure would further weaken Siegel's already flawed argument.
22
Why would anyone go to college to become a writer? If you want to be a writer go to the library and read how to books. College is for those who want to learn to persue a career in something that they like and will be more likely obtain a job in.
According to the author I can default on my mortgage and go happily on with my life and maybe become a writer.
According to the author I can default on my mortgage and go happily on with my life and maybe become a writer.
13
Thank you, Mr. Seigel. It may seem the wrong word to use, yet I delighted in your criticism. Many decades ago, while I was earning around $50 a week as an elementary school teacher, I paid the student loan. It was a crazy thing to do. As forcing Greece to pay back money that debtors lent the country knowing it will not be able to do. Capitalism kills life.
15
Statements like this are totally irresponsible. That is like saying, when I bought the car/house I thought it was neat, but after a few years I didn't want to continue paying for it. Only they can repo the car or house - but they can't repo your mind. Off to debtors prison for you!
18
There are over 4,000 higher educational institutions I this country and he couldn't find one that was affordable for him to study English? No offense, but you don't need a bachelors or a master's degree to be a professional reader. And don't blame the lenders because you chose to take out a loan too high for you to repay. The writer should've stayed at his shoe store job and not went to school at all.
21
As someone who did pay off their student loans, I congratulate you. You have played the long game, and won. You were unafraid to take the big gamble, and you made the right choice. Having said that, I don't know if it makes sense to suggest that others do the same ... for every winner after the gamble, there are hundreds who don't make it.
I think there is something very American in breaking a few rules to win the big game. If you are the winner, the cheating might be forgotten if there are no direct links to the win (thinking about the Tour de France here). So don't default on your loans and then try to be a successful banker.
Your point is golden, however. Why should we be forced to make a deal with Mr Scratch for 7 years of prosperity? Not all of us will have Daniel Webster to defend us.
I think there is something very American in breaking a few rules to win the big game. If you are the winner, the cheating might be forgotten if there are no direct links to the win (thinking about the Tour de France here). So don't default on your loans and then try to be a successful banker.
Your point is golden, however. Why should we be forced to make a deal with Mr Scratch for 7 years of prosperity? Not all of us will have Daniel Webster to defend us.
131
This "writer" (and execrable writing it is) had decent tuition and decent loans back in the 70s. He is nothing like the kids today who have huge tuition bills and bad loan rates. Yet he decided, early on, that his spirit required that he default on his loans to pursue his passion. Well that didn't work out well, if this example is any guide.
6
Nothing about this decision has any bearing on "ethics" or "morals" or anything other than a cold, hard, financial facts. Do you think that Disney was concerned about ethics when it brought in H1-B visa immigrants to replace American workers? Do you think any company ever has cared about its moral responsibility to its workers when offered cheaper labor somewhere else? People need to stop looking at decisions like this as an ethical issue; it is down to the numbers, period. The originator of the loan knew there was a risk of default; that's why they got to write the terms of the loan. That's why they spelled out penalties for defaulting.
As Tessio said in the Godfather, "it was only business, nothing personal".
As Tessio said in the Godfather, "it was only business, nothing personal".
15
The author says he chose life and decided to default on his student loans.It seems to me that he,rather.chose the easy way out.
14
Bravo Bravo
A 1 Trillion dollar debt to be paid by students is unthinkable.
It was the banks who wrote the laws that the Politicians quickly signed into law without a second thought to the students who were to pay for this disgrace.
Bravo Mr. Siegel, I hope more will do the same.
A 1 Trillion dollar debt to be paid by students is unthinkable.
It was the banks who wrote the laws that the Politicians quickly signed into law without a second thought to the students who were to pay for this disgrace.
Bravo Mr. Siegel, I hope more will do the same.
14
how selfish! it's not because you came from modest origins that you are required to pay off your loans. it's because of the choices you made - choosing an expensive liberal arts college that didn't justify the return on investment in terms of future earnings. it's because you took on adult responsibilities and should live up to them. it saddens me to read such a self-centered tripe. i hope other people ignore your advice despite your wishes -- America is about following through on promises and obligations, pursuing dreams but also learning from and paying the price for failure.
16
Perhaps, the writer is seeking absolution? If so, I'd suggest seeking an empty confessional. Chances are that the priest will respond, "say 10 Hail Mary's, and repay your loans."
8
The author conveniently avoids discussing whether she couldn't pay the debt. Instead the author rationalizes this type of theft on the grounds that his job has "nothing to do with my particular usefulness to society," which means nothing. Using this grossly flawed logic, everyone should default on all their debt. The banks are NOT social workers. Defaulting on debt makes it MORE expensive for the rest of us who DO pay.
12
I once bought a chainsaw a couple of hours from my house. The place didn't take credit cards and I didn't have a check. I asked him to hold it till I went back the next week. The owner said take the saw and pay me next week. I said, are you sure and he responded it's worth a few hundred dollars to know if a man is good for his word. Unfortunately it cost a little more to get that answer about the author. Greed is borrowing and keeping what isn't yours, not a bank or the government trying to get paid that some money back. All I just read was a lot self serving drivel to justify one person's view of why the rules shouldn't apply to them.
12
The same law that calls Lee Siegel a deadbeat, also made millions of people lose their homes when they were unable to sell them after the 2008 crash caused by Wall Street and the banks who make student loans. The government, OUR government gave the banks and Wall Street billions of dollars and let the people suffer. The same government, OUR government, is causing the student loan debacle, forcing out unions, stopping raising the minimum wage, destroying public schools, allowing the national infrastructure to fall into ruin, and so on and on. So America, what can be done? The answer is blowing in the wind!
26
There is an income based repayment program which helps right this perceived wrong. You give them. Documentation and the figure out what you can afford to pay. I believe it's 10% of your income over poverty level or maybe 1.5 of poverty level. So it ends up being less than 10%.
7
The author's not a hero; he's an opportunist! He comes forward with this now after 40 years realizing that this issue is a hotbed and is his "out" in having to repay this debt. If after 40 yrs. (& a college degree) later, he doesn't have the money to repay these; he's a bigger failure than if he had become a shoe sales clerk and much less honorable. If he doesn't pay it back, it's sad that his father's legacy (spend the money and go bankrupt) becomes his legacy (don't pay, after all, his father didn't have to pay). And then, he tries to pass that sad legacy out there to the whole universe!
16
You take a loan you can't pay it back there are consequences. Your credit takes a hit and other people who take loans pay a fraction more to cover your debt.
The reason to pay back loans or not is about credit rating not morality. If you pay back your loans you can borrow more at a later date and if it may get you better terms. This may actually benefit you and your family financially. If you don't it might hurt you and your family financially.
You made a decision that has nothing to do with the big bad banks or your personal morality. That doesn't mean there aren't real consequences to your actions.
No need for the author to strike out at a system he engaged to personally benefit him that had consequences when he couldn't live up to the deal. He doesn't need to feel guilt there were real consequences to him for his failure to live up to an agreement he freely made.
Personally I think it's time that college education and even post graduate education should be part of a solid public education paid for by taxpayers pretty much like roads and bridges and other infrastructure.
Civil society depends on sharing in order to build a better future for everyone. That doesn't mean that their aren't consequences for individuals not living up to their contracts. We need a better public institutions funded and maintained with taxes and personal responsibility for our actions.
The reason to pay back loans or not is about credit rating not morality. If you pay back your loans you can borrow more at a later date and if it may get you better terms. This may actually benefit you and your family financially. If you don't it might hurt you and your family financially.
You made a decision that has nothing to do with the big bad banks or your personal morality. That doesn't mean there aren't real consequences to your actions.
No need for the author to strike out at a system he engaged to personally benefit him that had consequences when he couldn't live up to the deal. He doesn't need to feel guilt there were real consequences to him for his failure to live up to an agreement he freely made.
Personally I think it's time that college education and even post graduate education should be part of a solid public education paid for by taxpayers pretty much like roads and bridges and other infrastructure.
Civil society depends on sharing in order to build a better future for everyone. That doesn't mean that their aren't consequences for individuals not living up to their contracts. We need a better public institutions funded and maintained with taxes and personal responsibility for our actions.
9
That's great that this guy wants to default on his legal/moral obligation, and even better his co-signer is dead, but if she were still alive would he be so flip about putting this obligation on her. I'm a co-signer for two individuals and am paying for one currently all the while trying to put two of my own kids thru college....if any relief comes, let it be for co-signers!
10
If the loan your mom co-signed for isn't paid back you have damaged her as well. They can take her tax refunds, 25% of her social security if she is retired, garnish her wages and now her credit is severely damaged. You need to pay off the loans co-signed by your mom. She is an innocent victim in this. She either better be dead or never need anything that requires a good credit rating. You have just wrecked your mother's financial life as well as well as your own.
Least you don't think I don't understand the problem - I am also struggling with student loan debt and cancer. I was fired from my job for cancer (have an eeoc complaint pending) and I would guess my debt load is far higher than yours as I am on my third cancer - the first was while in school with student health insurance that had no out of pocket limits so I had to take out loans to pay medical bills. I live in a state that didn't expand medicaid so I am paying nearly all of what I do make on health insurance at the moment (a gofundme helps on occasion put /78d3nc after their url if you are interesting in reading about my mess).
They have changed the law so that you can change over to one of the many income based/dependent repayment plans. If your income is low enough you pay nothing. Eventually the rest of your loan is forgiven. They take 10-15% of your disposable (not gross) income depending on the plan.
Eventually they will get you and your mom. Taking tax refunds, 25% of social security, wage garnishment.
Least you don't think I don't understand the problem - I am also struggling with student loan debt and cancer. I was fired from my job for cancer (have an eeoc complaint pending) and I would guess my debt load is far higher than yours as I am on my third cancer - the first was while in school with student health insurance that had no out of pocket limits so I had to take out loans to pay medical bills. I live in a state that didn't expand medicaid so I am paying nearly all of what I do make on health insurance at the moment (a gofundme helps on occasion put /78d3nc after their url if you are interesting in reading about my mess).
They have changed the law so that you can change over to one of the many income based/dependent repayment plans. If your income is low enough you pay nothing. Eventually the rest of your loan is forgiven. They take 10-15% of your disposable (not gross) income depending on the plan.
Eventually they will get you and your mom. Taking tax refunds, 25% of social security, wage garnishment.
8
Proof that people don't read. His mom's dead :(
7
Why weren't the banks and other financial institutions prohibited from using bankruptcy during the great recession? Are they not subject to the same morality issues?
11
It took me 10 years to get my BFA and MFA. My parents had no money to send me to school, so I did it myself. I worked part-time through the school year and full time between semesters. The college wouldn't give me my degree until I paid what was owed, which was a big motivating factor for getting the debt dealt with as soon as possible. I just thought that that was my responsibility.
Yes, Lee. You are a deadbeat.
Yes, Lee. You are a deadbeat.
7
So what you are saying is that while the system of college loans takes advantage of folks, you also took advantage of the system -- accepting government money in good faith to pursue the degree you wanted in the college and graduate schools of your choice. You conveniently forgot to disclose that your graduate school of choice was Columbia U., one of the more expensive private universities.
Rather than arguing two wrongs don't make a right, you further instead imply that the ends justify the means. Your actions in taking and defaulting on tax payer money to pursue your dreams at one of the more expensive and elite universities in the the US were correct, and others should consider doing the same. It's fortunate your degree wasn't in ethics. Ironically, you seem to have come to the same Wall Street notions of moral equivalency in your current career without the benefit of a soul-crushing finance degree you so eschewed.
I agree the current system of college loans is usurious for the "millions of young people" of this generation, and should be changed. However, you are of my generation (half a decade older in fact) when tuitions were 50%+ lower and scholarships more widely available for boomers in your circumstance. So although you are a highly successful writer, you must have decided to default long ago to accumulate the kind of crushing debt you refer to.
Bottom line - Right message on college loans today, seriously wrong messenger.
Rather than arguing two wrongs don't make a right, you further instead imply that the ends justify the means. Your actions in taking and defaulting on tax payer money to pursue your dreams at one of the more expensive and elite universities in the the US were correct, and others should consider doing the same. It's fortunate your degree wasn't in ethics. Ironically, you seem to have come to the same Wall Street notions of moral equivalency in your current career without the benefit of a soul-crushing finance degree you so eschewed.
I agree the current system of college loans is usurious for the "millions of young people" of this generation, and should be changed. However, you are of my generation (half a decade older in fact) when tuitions were 50%+ lower and scholarships more widely available for boomers in your circumstance. So although you are a highly successful writer, you must have decided to default long ago to accumulate the kind of crushing debt you refer to.
Bottom line - Right message on college loans today, seriously wrong messenger.
12
Debt is a massive problem in America, be it for autos or education. You didn't need to drive a Mercedes- a Chevy also works as you have proven. Why not start out at a community college, or state university if money is an issue?
It is hard to blame a seventeen year old, or a loving, deceased parent, but there is accountability to be had. Being flippant because you got away with it , is not an answer or example. At least admit some responsibility.
It is hard to blame a seventeen year old, or a loving, deceased parent, but there is accountability to be had. Being flippant because you got away with it , is not an answer or example. At least admit some responsibility.
7
i don't see how this is that easy -- your wages/tax refunds can be garnished, as well as social security checks. Lenders don't make it easy to simply walk away. It's not kids' faults that they take out huge loans at age 17 -- but it's a dumb system.
4
Whatever the issues about the student loan system and college tuition, if you knowingly take on a loan you figure out a way to pay it back. Period.
I I had 8 years of higher education as a musician---not a hugely remunerative profession unless you're Taylor Swift--and took on what were then big loans. I deferred, re-arranged, etc etc. and finally finished paying them all back in my early 40s. I did not own a place to live until I was in my mid-40s. I did not have children. I did have the career I wanted, even if I didn't make a huge amount of money doing it, and I don't regret the decision to take out loans.
You choose and you take responsibility for your choices. That IS "character".
I I had 8 years of higher education as a musician---not a hugely remunerative profession unless you're Taylor Swift--and took on what were then big loans. I deferred, re-arranged, etc etc. and finally finished paying them all back in my early 40s. I did not own a place to live until I was in my mid-40s. I did not have children. I did have the career I wanted, even if I didn't make a huge amount of money doing it, and I don't regret the decision to take out loans.
You choose and you take responsibility for your choices. That IS "character".
19
Good article and another illustration of why we no longer live in a democracy. A good education is now only available to the 1%. Most of us no longer have the freedom to pursue a good education due to the enormous increases in college tuition in the past 20 years. Financial pressures are slowly decreasing our accesses and freedoms on a daily basis [for the 99%]. The GOP prattle on about "freedom" that is a mere shell game and propaganda stunt while they cut freedoms for decent health care and education rights for most of us at every opportunity under ALEC sponsored laws and the ideas from conservative think-thinks whose only agenda is to help the very rich get richer.
12
"Am I a deadbeat?"
Lee,
Let me help you with the question you have posed today. Yes. Much like unwed fathers who refuse to take responsibilty for their own actions, deadbeat debtors walk away from their own poor choics and then expect someone else (anyone but themselves) to pay for mistake.
Grow up, will you son.
Lee,
Let me help you with the question you have posed today. Yes. Much like unwed fathers who refuse to take responsibilty for their own actions, deadbeat debtors walk away from their own poor choics and then expect someone else (anyone but themselves) to pay for mistake.
Grow up, will you son.
25
Hulking student loan debt is a ‘gift’ from the Reagan administration, part of Reagan’s marriage to the banking industry. I remember getting my first graduate school loan. I asked the bank officer why the amount on the check was actually less than what I had borrowed. He explained that ‘points’ were deducted up front to essentially prepay the bank for handling the loan. He also explained that the bank would immediately be selling the loan to another lender. As this exchange was taking place, college administration salaries and tuitions were in the midst of a steep ascent that continues to this day, in the absence of any reasonable explanation, namely inflation. This has simply been a prolonged feeding frenzy started by an administration of a man who probably paid something like $50 a year college tuition himself.The great irony here? Students educate themselves into higher incomes and higher tax brackets.
19
Is the writer of this column the same greatly acclaimed as well as occasionally reviled Lee Siegel who won a National Magazine Award for Reviews and Criticism in 2002 and who was suspended by The New Republic in 2007 for faux message responses on his official New Republic blog?
If so, he received both undergraduate and master's degrees from Columbia, historically among the most pricey of the platinum ivy league. With that pedigree he weeps that it was impossible to find suitable employment to pay off his loans since his "vocation" was being a writer of undefined and unlimited focus. Evidently he refused to find a "job" writing just anything less than art.
If so, he received both undergraduate and master's degrees from Columbia, historically among the most pricey of the platinum ivy league. With that pedigree he weeps that it was impossible to find suitable employment to pay off his loans since his "vocation" was being a writer of undefined and unlimited focus. Evidently he refused to find a "job" writing just anything less than art.
20
One measure of a successful society ought to be what percentage of young people get to spend their lives in pursuit of something meaningful to them. Every time I hear the nagging voice of our intellectual leadership exhorting young people to study STEM, regardless of their interests, because that's the only way to get out of poverty and live a satisfying life, I think: America feels more like a poor, desperate country than the rich democracy we make ourselves out to be.
I say this as a STEM professional and true engineering geek myself. Too many of the people I went to school with, and work with, would have been happier doing something else with their lives. And our society would have been better off.
I say this as a STEM professional and true engineering geek myself. Too many of the people I went to school with, and work with, would have been happier doing something else with their lives. And our society would have been better off.
15
Well I paid off my student loans but someone stole my identity, not my SS# but my Federal Tax ID and used that number to get student loans.I can not get this fixed even though the Dept. Of Ed knows its not me who took out the student loans.
The Feds are now garnishing my wages, medicare payments due to me from my business. I am told them may take 15% of my social security and if I was owned a Tax refund they'd take that also.
So please tell me how you are getting away with this maybe I'l find a way to get my money back?
The Feds are now garnishing my wages, medicare payments due to me from my business. I am told them may take 15% of my social security and if I was owned a Tax refund they'd take that also.
So please tell me how you are getting away with this maybe I'l find a way to get my money back?
11
How Arrogant, To equate child support with student loans is amazing. Yes, default is handled by debt collectors, but feeding and clothing your own child isn't even close to student loans.
11
No one should have to work 25 hours per week while going to university just to live, but nearly everyone I knew in college did, including me, out of necessity. When you say you're on a full scholarship to a top world university, some people tend to think that means you're set. It doesn't; it just means you don't owe anything for the actual tuition. If you'd like to live somewhere and eat things from time to time, that money needs to come from somewhere. So, when I transferred, after working full-time in retail jobs while also attending CC full-time, I decided that in my senior year I would find a job, but for my first year school would be my only job. I don't think that's an unreasonable choice.
So I took out 20k in loans to cover that first year of housing and living expenses, which I still owe and never had any intention of paying back. Actually, I did start paying it back when I graduated and it became due, 200/month for about a year and the principle still hasn't been touched. I now deliberately lowered my income to the point where I don't have monthly payments on the loan, and I'm using that 'extra' cash in my pocket to go back to school for another certification. I've always assumed that something in this system has got to give soon, so I'm going to wait it out at least a few more years before paying anything on it.
So I took out 20k in loans to cover that first year of housing and living expenses, which I still owe and never had any intention of paying back. Actually, I did start paying it back when I graduated and it became due, 200/month for about a year and the principle still hasn't been touched. I now deliberately lowered my income to the point where I don't have monthly payments on the loan, and I'm using that 'extra' cash in my pocket to go back to school for another certification. I've always assumed that something in this system has got to give soon, so I'm going to wait it out at least a few more years before paying anything on it.
8
This whole article basically says "I made poor life decisions and am now paying the consequences".
3
Student loans are no less a scam than the loans that caused the mortgage crisis. It's time for our often well bought and paid for government to step in and actually do something to help the people. Maybe we need a month where no one pays for them to get the message.
5
Good for you for taking a stand. How can other industrialized countries provide free college education? We can as well, but there is no incentive to do so with our current structure.
4
A couple of thoughts: 1) I guess mom has her credit ruined too now since she co-signed. I couldn't do that to my mom. 2) These bad loans are worse than the ones made in the housing crisis because there's literally no collateral.
6
Wow. I paid off $40,000 in student loans before I turned 26 (on a teacher's salary). I guess I should have just purposely defaulted instead of working hard and living below my means right? *sigh*
Thank goodness I started a financial education company to keep this kind of nonsense from happening.
Thank goodness I started a financial education company to keep this kind of nonsense from happening.
13
the problems are real. the author is a narcissist. I can't imagine paying for a book for his thoughts on money. I wonder if he would be fine if his publisher did not pay him. he seems as if he spent more time in picking the proper wife
14
Clearly this man should have gone to a state school and not an expensive private school. He probably should have worked for a while before getting that masters degree.
That said, why was it so easy for him to borrow these sums and make such a bad choice?
Department of ED, get your house in order. You were compared unfavorably to the IRS. That is an accomplishment.
That said, why was it so easy for him to borrow these sums and make such a bad choice?
Department of ED, get your house in order. You were compared unfavorably to the IRS. That is an accomplishment.
5
Let other people waste their lives earning the money to pay the taxes to pay for my education.
9
Yes, somehow the price of college has become scandalous. It's not fair that rich kids can attend college without the same sacrifices those of lesser means face. But life has never been fair & all of us are confronted with hard choices in this unfair world. As the single mom of a handicapped child. I made the decision that I didn't want to model for her a life funded by welfare or dead-end jobs. I knew my choice to go to college would mean sacrifices & hardships but I forged ahead. Yes, I had to take out school loans to attend college. I worked very hard & after graduation, I was awarded a full scholarship for graduate school at Notre Dame. Even with that scholarship, I had to work AND take out more student loans to pay our living expenses while I attended 3 years of grad school. After ND, I chose to live near family in a rural area with low paying jobs because I felt it was more important for my child to be close to extended family than to have more money. Again, life is full of decisions & few of them are easy. We choose our consequences. I could have easily rationalized not paying my student loans. I had a daughter who required - still does - ongoing health care including numerous surgeries. It was a huge struggle to pay those student loans. It took years to pay them off but it never occurred to me to default on them. It's a matter of honor & responsibility. I understood they were LOANS not GIFTS. The consequence of accepting a loan is that you must pay it off. Period.
10
I have a hard time understanding those who rationalize what is basically theft from the taxpayers on the grounds that the loans Mr. Siegel freely signed for are "unfair". What has happened to us as a nation?
13
he mentioned the banker who issued the loan was balding so perhaps it would have been better if the banker had used that money for a hair transplant rather than loaning to the deadbeat college student
8
I want an answer regarding why government loans charge upwards of 7% while the Fed loans to banks remain at zero .
How is it that this most egregious loan cannot be discharged?
We have an opportunity to do here what we failed to do for the homeowners when the banks collapsed.
Stop making billions and stop crushing the ability of our economy to fully recover. You need income to buy goods and services and pay rent , marry, have children!
Reset the principal lower interests rates to 1 or 2% and let's all get on with the business of living !
How is it that this most egregious loan cannot be discharged?
We have an opportunity to do here what we failed to do for the homeowners when the banks collapsed.
Stop making billions and stop crushing the ability of our economy to fully recover. You need income to buy goods and services and pay rent , marry, have children!
Reset the principal lower interests rates to 1 or 2% and let's all get on with the business of living !
9
Moral and legal sophistry. A community college or state school would have been affordable. No one is entitled to the best college education money can buy.
7
Scotland offers free university education and Britain does not -- one of the reasons the Scots are tempted to vote nationalist. It can be done.
6
Nobody forced the author to attend an expensive, private college. Nobody forced him to take out the loan. Choices come with consequences. Pay up.
14
I had multiple jobs while working as an actor in nyc so that I could pay my debts. Several of my friends complained that it was hard to pursue acting while paying rent, loans, etc. It is hard. But I believe that you must meet your obligations.
10
So this essay illustrates A reason why student loan lenders should consider the applicant's ability to repay the loans based on their planned profession. How insane is it that a bank will lend $100,000 or more to someone whose mid-career earning potential is $50,000. No that all will default but certainly there is a higher potential for default.
4
So this reads to me as: "I borrowed money and decided not to pay it back. I rationalize this decision by deciding that the people who loaned me the money that I asked for were actually evil to do as I asked. (And we know they're evil because the author describes them as in their 50s and balding.) "
I would have had more respect for the author if they had been more intellectually honest and not tried to portray themselves as a hero. They decided to welch on their promise to pay back the money and used a legal process to get out of it. You're no crook, but you're no hero either.
I would have had more respect for the author if they had been more intellectually honest and not tried to portray themselves as a hero. They decided to welch on their promise to pay back the money and used a legal process to get out of it. You're no crook, but you're no hero either.
8
The foundation of this story is the myth that one gets a better education at a very expensive, very small liberal arts college rather than at a state university in a department (e.g., English) of the college of liberal arts.
6
My daughter, a public school teacher with a masters degree, graduated with her bachelors degree and started working about 14 years ago. She is still paying back her loans.
America would be a better stronger country if college was free for anyone qualified to go.
But instead we preserve low taxes, or almost no taxes, for the extremely rich and waste money on weapons. You wouldn't expect this to happen in a country where its "one person, one vote" but of course that's not really where we live. Your congressman has been purchased by the rich and will do their bidding and to heck with America.
America would be a better stronger country if college was free for anyone qualified to go.
But instead we preserve low taxes, or almost no taxes, for the extremely rich and waste money on weapons. You wouldn't expect this to happen in a country where its "one person, one vote" but of course that's not really where we live. Your congressman has been purchased by the rich and will do their bidding and to heck with America.
10
Of course higher education ought to be heavily subsidized - it's surreal that the only way students can access America's wealth of knowledge by putting themselves tens of thousands of dollars in debt. But it's fair to say that in such a world that small private liberal arts college might not have existed, and you might not have gotten in. You can't just reap the benefits of a capitalist institution and then denounce it right afterwards.
4
It's not as if anyone didn't know these were "loans" in the first place. Although it's hard to pay things back in trying circumstances, it is still a commitment. There are lots of other ways to success than through expensive private colleges or any college for that matter. I can see both sides, but many who are not mentioned in this article just say screw it, I'm just going on with my life and not paying back what I borrowed and so much for good faith and enlarging their sense of entitlement. It's a loan, it's not a gift. (and yes, it would be great if there was a free option for higher level education) Can you imagine how great our education system might be if we were not spending money poking our nose in other countries' business?
4
Accountability and responsibility for ones actions and decisions seem to be lacking in spades in today’s world. I came from a blue collar background. I had no college savings. My parents had limped along financially after a bankruptcy. No one had the financial acumen to sit me down and walk me through the financial and personal costs of attending a private liberal arts college and then pursuing a law degree. The debt has been crippling at times. Once I finished law school my monthly student loan payment came to roughly $2,000 a month. I had no choice but to pursue a career in the finance industry. As a result I used bonuses and any extra money I had to pay things down faster, starting with the loans that had the highest interest rate. One by one the loans fell away. I have never missed one payment. I have 10 months lefts and then I will finally be done paying off the $200,000 I had in student loans.
You are not a rallying cry for more accessible, affordable education. You are an example of someone who feels they can easily shed their obligations and responsibilities so you can dedicate yourself to your “true calling” in life. You should be ashamed of yourself. Not only will your lenders follow you to your grave, they can and likely will go after those you leave behind since private student loans don’t disappear after death.
You are not a rallying cry for more accessible, affordable education. You are an example of someone who feels they can easily shed their obligations and responsibilities so you can dedicate yourself to your “true calling” in life. You should be ashamed of yourself. Not only will your lenders follow you to your grave, they can and likely will go after those you leave behind since private student loans don’t disappear after death.
20
Instead of going to a fancy expensive school, you should have stayed in a state school and worked hard to make the most of it, as I and many others have done. I also came from modest means. I chose a state school. I paid for it. And I have been very successful for 30 years in a career that I love. I resent your choice to saddle the rest of us with your debt, because a state school wasn't good enough for you.
14
As someone from a similar socioeconomic background and about the same age as Mr. Siegel who actually did pay back his student loans, I strongly believe a better thesis for his rant would have been de-stigmatizing a state college education rather than encouraging defaults. I greatly value and have benefited from my private college and grad school experience; however, some of my similarly situated high school friends achieved as much or even greater career success by taking the public higher ed route – without the daunting student debt. It sounds cliché, but we make choices and there are consequences to those choices, some desirable and some difficult. It is indeed irresponsible to accept only the desirable and ignore the difficult. Mr. Siegel’s writing prowess and accompanying CV demonstrates that he was not held back by transferring “to a state college in New Jersey, closer to home.”
7
you were willing to take the money and let it enrich your future....but when it comes to living up to your obligation you decided not to. Tough!
39
I did exactly the same thing & have lived a cash-only life for the past decade after foolishly believing that a masters degree from an Ivy League school would pay off. I have no hope of cracking that debt & to equate making back-breaking payments with character is insane. CHOOSE LIFE! But also: be aware you will never see a tax return ever, nor collect social security. Don't worry, you Moral Mollies, they take it out of your hide one way or another.
25
When the recent coalition government in the UK increased the cost of a university education (to £9,000) there were riots in the streets. I too thought the increase wrongheaded and unfair, but at least they took a humane approach to student loans. You owe no repayments until your income exceeds a threshold. Above that threshold, you pay a percentage of your income, never to exceed 9%. If after 30 years there is a balance due, it is forgiven. I think this approach recognises there is a value to a quality education and that quality education should not force a teacher (or a writer) into bankruptcy.
Like many aspects of America's "free market", student loans are an area where the private sector has made outsized returns with federal government support where heads, the private sector wins, tails, the government (and all of us) lose.
Like many aspects of America's "free market", student loans are an area where the private sector has made outsized returns with federal government support where heads, the private sector wins, tails, the government (and all of us) lose.
18
As someone who amassed a very large amount of student loans (over 100k), and someone teaching in the public sector, I will be paying my loans off in full. Most loans have programs that allow a person to pay at a portion of their AGI. Once I was allowed to enter this program, as most borrowers are, I breathed a huge sigh of relief. I knew my loan payments would at least be manageable. I would be paying them for the rest of my life (25 years) before forgiveness set in, but I could do it, and it was my responsibility to do so. In the end, I will have paid back all the principal plus more. If I made less income I would not be able to pay off the whole amount, but I'd be responsible for what I could instead of throwing in the towel.
What needs to happen is borrowers need to be able to consolidate private student or parent borrowed loans into a federal one. Then they can be eligible for payment plans. With the current payment plans and ability for forbearance in economic hardship, no one should have a reason to default, except selfishness and irresponsibility.
I drive an older car and my house is an old, cheap foreclosure, but I have a great, stable career with enough to live comfortably. You don't always get everything.
We do need to stop for-profit institutions from gouging borrowers and providing poor education though. That is just corporate welfare at student and taxpayer expense.
What needs to happen is borrowers need to be able to consolidate private student or parent borrowed loans into a federal one. Then they can be eligible for payment plans. With the current payment plans and ability for forbearance in economic hardship, no one should have a reason to default, except selfishness and irresponsibility.
I drive an older car and my house is an old, cheap foreclosure, but I have a great, stable career with enough to live comfortably. You don't always get everything.
We do need to stop for-profit institutions from gouging borrowers and providing poor education though. That is just corporate welfare at student and taxpayer expense.
18
As a former college professor, I have told my students that I believe they have no moral obligation to repay student loans. Several intelligent nations provide free university education so their youth will be better citizens.
The corporations which they would repay have stolen their futures, by destroying America's industrial and financial base, while MediCare and Social Security are drained.
It is the obligation of elders to communicate essential knowledge to new generations painlessly, so that society may progress.
Therefore, rather than worry about loan repayments, graduates have a greater moral obligation to do with their lives what is best for themselves, their families, communities, the nation and the planet.
Ordinarily we are obliged to honor contracts. This contract, however, chains graduates to decades of debt servitude which they must repay often by doing work they dislike and which damages their future.
When the alternative to signing such a malicious bond is having no college education, it is made under duress and should be broken. Both education and health care are rights to be enjoyed by all, not just the rich.
The game is rigged by bankers and Wall Street, who are screwing an entire generation. Their mismanagement of the economy has broken the implied contract between college diplomas and dignified jobs.
The corporations which they would repay have stolen their futures, by destroying America's industrial and financial base, while MediCare and Social Security are drained.
It is the obligation of elders to communicate essential knowledge to new generations painlessly, so that society may progress.
Therefore, rather than worry about loan repayments, graduates have a greater moral obligation to do with their lives what is best for themselves, their families, communities, the nation and the planet.
Ordinarily we are obliged to honor contracts. This contract, however, chains graduates to decades of debt servitude which they must repay often by doing work they dislike and which damages their future.
When the alternative to signing such a malicious bond is having no college education, it is made under duress and should be broken. Both education and health care are rights to be enjoyed by all, not just the rich.
The game is rigged by bankers and Wall Street, who are screwing an entire generation. Their mismanagement of the economy has broken the implied contract between college diplomas and dignified jobs.
13
My story is all to familiar. After graduation it was impossible to make full payment on my student loans. I worked full time in an unrelated field and as a single parent qualified for subsidized housing. I had fallen in arrears because of making only partial payments. President Reagan decided to make a huge push to collect all loan money in arrears no matter the circumstances of the borrower. I was so niave I did not obtain a partial payment agreement in writing. The collection calls and letters began with this being before current collection laws were enacted. I was threatened, harassed, and called a liar. Then I gave up trying to reach any compromises with the collectors and defaulted. The entire situation was very humiliating because I felt trapped. At this point, many years later, I know my education is internal and it was the best thing I ever did for myself by breaking me away from a family cycle or ignorance and intolerance. I learned how to learn which had not happened in public schools. I was the first person in my family history to attend college and have no regrets.
11
This is what it has come to, the lack of a moral compass is truly heartbreaking. The United States had a short run at being the greatest show on earth and now we are slowly falling behind. Our youth have lost the integrity that their grandparents so highly valued.
Somehow this ignorant fool thinks its OK to force me to foot the bill for his inability to think through his life plan and pay his way through a cushy life as a private school student. Worse yet, he will likely be a parasite on our our society, never making a meaningful contribution but always demaning handouts because he somehow thisnks he deserves them.
For some reason I am to blame because I studied, worked hard and made inumberable personal sacrifices to save money, to pay taxes, pay for my own children's educations and plan for my old age while this selfish individual took money from me and others who truly deserved to have the scholarships.
Why would anyone celebrate this lack of ethical behaviour and work ethic?
When I struggled to find my way as a new high school graduate I dug ditches and washed dishes while earning a wage that somehow paid the rent. The farthest thing from my mind was looking for public assistance or handouts that I did not deserve.......
Please do not celebrate or validate this selfish person for stealing money from the people who truly cannot work or are disabled and really need and deserve public assiatance....
So tremendously sad to see our young people acting so selfishly.
Somehow this ignorant fool thinks its OK to force me to foot the bill for his inability to think through his life plan and pay his way through a cushy life as a private school student. Worse yet, he will likely be a parasite on our our society, never making a meaningful contribution but always demaning handouts because he somehow thisnks he deserves them.
For some reason I am to blame because I studied, worked hard and made inumberable personal sacrifices to save money, to pay taxes, pay for my own children's educations and plan for my old age while this selfish individual took money from me and others who truly deserved to have the scholarships.
Why would anyone celebrate this lack of ethical behaviour and work ethic?
When I struggled to find my way as a new high school graduate I dug ditches and washed dishes while earning a wage that somehow paid the rent. The farthest thing from my mind was looking for public assistance or handouts that I did not deserve.......
Please do not celebrate or validate this selfish person for stealing money from the people who truly cannot work or are disabled and really need and deserve public assiatance....
So tremendously sad to see our young people acting so selfishly.
34
In my early 20's I got involved in a business that failed. I was bankrupt. I had credit card debt, commercial debt, tax debt, and those pesky student loans you mentioned. While the bankruptcy process can cleanse you of most debt it is very difficult to shed student loans and begin anew.
So I did what you did. I ignored it and moved on. I got my brother to get me a credit card and slowly but surely I rebuilt my financial life. Then one day a letter came in the mail from my alma mater informing me that I still had this outstanding loan. You know what I did? I repaid it.
The simple fact is that I owed the debt. Further, whatever success in life I've enjoyed, the education that that debt afforded played a large role. You can equivocate and rationalize all you want but it doesn't change the fact that you've chosen not to repay your loans not because of any true hardship but because they are preventing you from living the life you want to live; others be damned.
So I did what you did. I ignored it and moved on. I got my brother to get me a credit card and slowly but surely I rebuilt my financial life. Then one day a letter came in the mail from my alma mater informing me that I still had this outstanding loan. You know what I did? I repaid it.
The simple fact is that I owed the debt. Further, whatever success in life I've enjoyed, the education that that debt afforded played a large role. You can equivocate and rationalize all you want but it doesn't change the fact that you've chosen not to repay your loans not because of any true hardship but because they are preventing you from living the life you want to live; others be damned.
45
I'm not a fan of debt at all, and I'm not fan of universities and colleges charging what they do - rapacity is a good word choice there. I could argue both sides of this, but I have an issue with one key statement: "To my mind, they have learned to live with a social arrangement that is legal, but not moral."
Disagree - they read (or should have read) and signed the loan and payment details, their parents co-signed, and they entered a binding contract. Period. It is a moral obligation to fulfill one's commitments.
Collection agencies suck, in general, but defaulting on DoE loans costs everyone else money. I don't care about your credit score - I care about the next kid (maybe someone I've coached) who comes along and needs help and can't get it because more people do what you did and change the availability or cost of money.
Disagree - they read (or should have read) and signed the loan and payment details, their parents co-signed, and they entered a binding contract. Period. It is a moral obligation to fulfill one's commitments.
Collection agencies suck, in general, but defaulting on DoE loans costs everyone else money. I don't care about your credit score - I care about the next kid (maybe someone I've coached) who comes along and needs help and can't get it because more people do what you did and change the availability or cost of money.
21
I understand the desire to be rid of your loans -- but you are talking about the loans of 30 to 40 years ago. Costs were so much lower and, I dare say, I rather think this DOES look bad on you. If you were 29 and had escaped college within the last 7 years, that would be one thing. Prices are up by absurd amounts. As it stands, this is a very sad piece. 30 or 40 years ago you took out to much? Back when a summer's job would pay for tuition? Lastly, the big problem going forward is how to be fair to those who pay verse those who don't pay. I think we all know the student loan bubble will not be paid -the question is how to make it fair to those who can and do paid in full, rather than borrowed from the bank and then default. Also, just from an observational standpoint, some fairly significant percentage of those who take out loans live dramatically beyond their means at the time. Yet, when we decide to forgive student loans in the future, will we take this phenomenon into account? Probably not. The forward looking student loan mess will be rife with moral ambiguity and those who are "responsible" will likely be punished for their responsibility.
24
The fact that the loans are not dischargeable is Dickensian. Our own little bit of English Victorian debtors prison here in America. It is positively unAmerican. I have already paid back more than I borrowed to begin with and I still owe just about as much as I started with...20 years and much accrued interest later. I DID do bankruptcy 17 years ago, but thanks to our super enlightened congress owned by the banks I can be sure I will be paying student loans off until I am dead.
11
Sorry, I don't buy your weak excuses. I, too, was from a lower economic class. Went to the local state university. Worked 20 hrs/week throughout school(full-time summers). No car. No 'Spring Breaks'. Dropped out 2 quarters to work full-time (factory job)) and live at home, and then returned. Worked. Back to graduate school/law school at night. Payed back every cent owed over time. It was what one did.
45
I was an English major and earned an MA. There are so many great writers who worked full-time jobs to support themselves until, and even after, they were successful. Wallace Stevens worked in the insurance industry, George Saunders, William Carlos Williams was a pediatrician, etc. There is no actual argument in your op-ed piece. You claim that this was a moral decision (based on the above unwarranted grounds) but then claim to be a nihilist. This is really disappointing.
22
Stunning comments. It's one thing to think it, another to do it, and still another to brag about it. The thing is, the rest of us have to pay for Lee's failure to pay. After all, that small private college he went to still has the money.
26
Let's see, he knew at the start what were the ramifications of signing up for the loan, but chose to do so anyway. How was the system "immoral?" No one forced him to sign for it. He willingly did so. This is called theft, pure and simple. He got something of value (his education, regardless of what he thinks of it now) and refused to pay for it. He should indeed pay a high price for it, not be rewarded for his criminality.
28
OK, a few points:
1) Yes the author made a mistake not going to a state school. But I'd consider that his parents' fault: as adults with life experience and hopefully some basic understanding of finances, they should have made that decision for him, rather than left such a decision to a 17 or 18 year old.
2) The system is utterly rigged. Citizens (that is, human beings) of limited means are supposed to play by the rules that the Big Guys (corps and the rich elite) utterly ignore, because THEY are "too big to fail" or have connections to same. When mere humans try the same tactics, they face the kind of judgement we see here. Really? I strongly disagree. If you can game the system, go for it. I applaud the author's approach.
3) WHERE do people get the idea that writers can't make a decent living? This is not true! Perhaps fictional writers (novelists, short story writers) have a hard time of it - but there are many writers who make very good livings: as grant writers, technical writers, marketers/advertisers, writing for magazines, screenwriters, etc etc. (Note that I left out "journalists.") These are corporate and non-profit jobs that can pay very solid middle class wages ($50K-$100K and more). If the writer chooses to work as a freelancer, s/he also has the advantages of incorporating as a business, with the tax benefits that affords.
1) Yes the author made a mistake not going to a state school. But I'd consider that his parents' fault: as adults with life experience and hopefully some basic understanding of finances, they should have made that decision for him, rather than left such a decision to a 17 or 18 year old.
2) The system is utterly rigged. Citizens (that is, human beings) of limited means are supposed to play by the rules that the Big Guys (corps and the rich elite) utterly ignore, because THEY are "too big to fail" or have connections to same. When mere humans try the same tactics, they face the kind of judgement we see here. Really? I strongly disagree. If you can game the system, go for it. I applaud the author's approach.
3) WHERE do people get the idea that writers can't make a decent living? This is not true! Perhaps fictional writers (novelists, short story writers) have a hard time of it - but there are many writers who make very good livings: as grant writers, technical writers, marketers/advertisers, writing for magazines, screenwriters, etc etc. (Note that I left out "journalists.") These are corporate and non-profit jobs that can pay very solid middle class wages ($50K-$100K and more). If the writer chooses to work as a freelancer, s/he also has the advantages of incorporating as a business, with the tax benefits that affords.
9
You could have written this much more clearly without waxing poetic. Something like this would have sufficed:
I didn't like the choices I made, so instead of being a responsible adult and taking ownership for my decisions, I decided to let others pay for my poor choices.
While I know I have no legal, let alone moral, leg to stand on to justify my behavior, let me blame everyone and everything else. Makes me feel better about my lack of judgment. Oh, and don't think that now that I'm actually earning a living I am making good on my debts. No, not me.
I didn't like the choices I made, so instead of being a responsible adult and taking ownership for my decisions, I decided to let others pay for my poor choices.
While I know I have no legal, let alone moral, leg to stand on to justify my behavior, let me blame everyone and everything else. Makes me feel better about my lack of judgment. Oh, and don't think that now that I'm actually earning a living I am making good on my debts. No, not me.
40
It was always my dream to go to college one day, as no one in my family had ever done so...I would be the first. When I discussed this with my high school counselor, he laughed, stating, "the best you can ever hope for is to get married and have kids." In a family of eight kids, support for going to college was nonexistent. So, I got married and had kids. Once my daughters were grown, I applied to college and was accepted...I was ecstatic! I applied for student loans and received them with no problem. While attending college full-time, I also was working for a law firm full time. I went on to obtain my master's degree, on student loans, with the hope of going to law school. By the time I was applying for law school, my first month's bill came for my student loans. I remember thinking that there must be some mistake, because in order to make the monthly payment, on the statement, I would have to either win the lottery, or work 24/7. Any quality of life would cease to exist. My dream was now becoming my nightmare. The cost of education in the United States is outrageous, with unrealistic payments being the end result. If your children, or you, are considering college, check into moving to Germany...all universities there are now free for Americans (CBS News, Oct 3, 2014). How ironic that as Americans, we have to leave our own country if we want to get an education, without selling our souls to the devil...our government.
10
I borrowed up to my eyeballs in the course of earning two expensive degrees - a B.A. and a J.D. My first job was a Wall Street job that I hated, day in and day out, every single day for more than two years. Despite earning Wall Street pay, I continued to live like a student - paying my bills and my loans, and saving more than half my net salary.
Twenty-six months after taking that job, I left, took a huge pay cut and began a long and rewarding career in New York State and City government.
Educational loans got me an education my parents could not possibly have afforded. Without that education, I could not have had the great career that I have had.
I have never regarded my brief time on Wall Street - as much as I disliked it - as an unfair price to pay for the opportunities that those loans gave me.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
Twenty-six months after taking that job, I left, took a huge pay cut and began a long and rewarding career in New York State and City government.
Educational loans got me an education my parents could not possibly have afforded. Without that education, I could not have had the great career that I have had.
I have never regarded my brief time on Wall Street - as much as I disliked it - as an unfair price to pay for the opportunities that those loans gave me.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
32
I defaulted on my loan, and the collection agency garnished my wages. The kicker is that I was working at a nonprofit, and did so for 7 years. Then Obama passed rules that said your debt would be forgiven if you worked in the nonprofit sector for 10 years. But it was NOT retroactive. I'd borrowed $22,000 and ended up paying $50,000. It has been crippling. Here I am in my 40s and still owe $7,000. Every extra dime has gone to paying back my loan. I have no health insurance. I have no retirement or property. And I didn't go to grad school because it was unaffordable. Bachelor's degrees should be a public right, especially considering corporations get ridiculous subsidies.
14
There are now many liberal arts small colleges that have as their policy that no student will graduate with a student loan balance beyond a specific percentage of their four years of tuition. This is accomplished by appropriate levels of financial aid. I advise future students to seek out these progressive, moral schools.
10
I don't get it.
You are now a succesful writer, having fulfilled your life dream.
Why don't you want to pay the loan that allowed you to become what you wanted to be? Too many accrued expenses and interest? I'm sure they, whoever the creditors are, would accept if you at least paid back the principal.
Or do you feel like you are so important to humankind that normal laws and obligations don't apply to you?
You are now a succesful writer, having fulfilled your life dream.
Why don't you want to pay the loan that allowed you to become what you wanted to be? Too many accrued expenses and interest? I'm sure they, whoever the creditors are, would accept if you at least paid back the principal.
Or do you feel like you are so important to humankind that normal laws and obligations don't apply to you?
54
You made a choice to attend expensive schools. You made a choice to borrow the money. You should have honored the responsibility to repay the loans. Somehow justifying not doing so makes you selfish at the least. If everyone did this, as you point out, the entire credit system collapses. In effect, you have unilaterally chosen to give yourself thousands of dollars of other peoples money. Words fail me. Hope you can sleep at night.
35
Rationalize it anyway you want. You borrowed money and failed to pay it back. You didn't want to do work that wasn't meaningful to you. I believe the designation "deadbeat" fits you.
35
why do you get to walk away from your decisions and make the rest of us responsible for them? how selfishness and irresponsible and presumably now you could pay some of it back
25
If you borrow money, pay it back. That is what my parents taught me. With all of the people who HAVE paid back their loans, why should YOU not have to?
15
It is urgent for parents to save every penny for their children's
college education. Families have to do everything they can to stay out
of the student loan mess. We are of modest means yet we have saved
enough to send our daughter to grad school and beyond with no loans.
We haven't been on a real vacation in 25 years to save up... it has been
well worth it. She is our best investment.
college education. Families have to do everything they can to stay out
of the student loan mess. We are of modest means yet we have saved
enough to send our daughter to grad school and beyond with no loans.
We haven't been on a real vacation in 25 years to save up... it has been
well worth it. She is our best investment.
3
I just remember taking on three part time jobs while going to full time college and graduated in four years and paying off my loans the first year that I worked. At the time, the starting salaries were around $15,000. Therefore, if you choose wrong or want public assistance, then go to a state school. You just can't have it both ways. It ruins it for other people who want the private education and are willing to pay off their debts.
7
I have zero sympathy for people with huge student loans. If these people could not afford an out of state school they should have stayed home and gone to a local school that they could afford. Why should the government pay so they could have that 4 year out of stare college experience? I'm sure that the writer had many other options; he should have taken one.
9
I'm old and retired. Got my education in pieces up to a Masters degree without loans. But I couldn't do it today. And these people are paying off massive loans when they should be saving for retirement. Greed has overcome the system.
11
He's got a pretty good point. At first I was somewhat leery, but it's a sound argument---this is one structurally unsound system.
Anyone who has had their education paid for by their parents is in no position to judge these choices.
Anyone who has had their education paid for by their parents is in no position to judge these choices.
11
Excellent opinion piece! It is unthinkable that young people would have to enter into deep debt just to get an education. This writer was absolutely correct to default on his loans and I would encourage all borrowers to do the same. I personally paid off 40k worth of loans andi sure feel like a "sucker". Education is a fundamental right and should not cost American students a penny.
8
"The end justifies the means" appears to be the moral of this pathetic little tale, where the victim/writer seeks to outwit the Snidely Whiplash-like holders of his debt. As for his advice - my personal favorite, cohabiting with someone with good credit - it is both worthless and disposable, unlike his debt. Nowhere in this plaintive whine is there the notion of trying to pay something back. He admits he borrowed the money, and this is where I get stuck.
What he should have done, and young borrowers everywhere should do: recognize that life is a series of changes and detours and take the financially rewarding and soul-crushing job (really? If you are lucky enough to have been offered such a job, despite your 98-pound weakling of a soul, the remedy is friends and hobbies) until the debt is paid and savings are accumulated. Then quit and pursue whatever it is he thought he really wanted at the beginning - which probably morphed into something else in the meantime, from the sounds of things.
What he can do now: pay it off. Because that was the deal and he can afford it now. Is it a lousy deal in a screwed up system? Sure. So what?
Where he has ended up: In a spiritual heap, from my read. I predict that when he writes the check and ends this 40-year psychodrama the feelings of relief and power over his circumstances will bring him more healing than writing these types of victimized rants have. And then maybe he can write something interesting and helpful.
What he should have done, and young borrowers everywhere should do: recognize that life is a series of changes and detours and take the financially rewarding and soul-crushing job (really? If you are lucky enough to have been offered such a job, despite your 98-pound weakling of a soul, the remedy is friends and hobbies) until the debt is paid and savings are accumulated. Then quit and pursue whatever it is he thought he really wanted at the beginning - which probably morphed into something else in the meantime, from the sounds of things.
What he can do now: pay it off. Because that was the deal and he can afford it now. Is it a lousy deal in a screwed up system? Sure. So what?
Where he has ended up: In a spiritual heap, from my read. I predict that when he writes the check and ends this 40-year psychodrama the feelings of relief and power over his circumstances will bring him more healing than writing these types of victimized rants have. And then maybe he can write something interesting and helpful.
6
Unburdening one's life is always tempting. But consider the causes and repercussions and there may be a different picture that comes to view. Choosing a college one can afford is the first step, and keeping one's word is another. The only thing the Lee did was cause more hardship for others who choose to honor their debt as he smugly declares he scored one against the machine.
8
I looked up Mr Siegal on Wikpedia. He left out some educational background. After dropping out of the small state college - I guess because he deserved better - he earned undergraduate and graduate degrees from Columbia, using student loans. Now he is a well established author living in Montclair, NJ. Sounds like he is financially sound enough to repay, he just doesn't want to, he deserves it. Talk about entitled.
26
Hmmmm.... I went to expensive schools with loans in the 70's and 80's and my loan payments were only about $38 a month. I have never made much money and had no trouble paying them off - all though I was in my mid 40's by the time I finished (2 Master's degrees.)
I have tremendous sympathy for the CURRENT generation who often graduate with $30,000 in debt. I feel sorry for the students who were naive enough to run up $100,000 debts at for-profit schools -they were scammed. I agree that student loans should be treated like any other debt if people declare bankruptcy.
But this author is rationalizing, and as others have pointed out, may discover the loans have to be paid back out of social security.
I have tremendous sympathy for the CURRENT generation who often graduate with $30,000 in debt. I feel sorry for the students who were naive enough to run up $100,000 debts at for-profit schools -they were scammed. I agree that student loans should be treated like any other debt if people declare bankruptcy.
But this author is rationalizing, and as others have pointed out, may discover the loans have to be paid back out of social security.
11
A Master's degree to be a writer? I'm pretty sure you can do that without ANY degree (lookatme! I'm writing!). Taking on college debt requires personal responsibility and a NEED for a college degree (for a profession or for intense personal fulfillment). Which is why this year we decided our daughter, who graduated last week and whose passion is musical theatre, would not be attending college. The debt we would all have to take on didn't make sense. But we will support her to pursue her dream. http://thebrokeandbeautifullife.com/should-you-go-to-college-for-acting/
3
An even more modest policy goal: get rid of the unique exemption that prevents student loans from being discharged through bankruptcy proceedings.
6
I agree but I think it should be a national movement, not an individual gesture. Occupy would be a good group for this - create a nation wide campaign to offer banks some set figure - say 10% against the original principle. Or nothing. Take it or leave it. That's the sort of change that can come about by mass agitation.
6
"defaulting on my student loans, which was the only way I could survive without wasting my life in a job that had nothing to do with my particular usefulness to society."
This writer has a strange definition of usefulness. He certainly has USEd the system to its FULLest advantage, then dropped the bill on other people so he can be "happy".
How nice, yet, not really very useful for the rest of us picking up his tab - using the more traditional definition of useful, of course.
This writer has a strange definition of usefulness. He certainly has USEd the system to its FULLest advantage, then dropped the bill on other people so he can be "happy".
How nice, yet, not really very useful for the rest of us picking up his tab - using the more traditional definition of useful, of course.
14
You have covered all the bases here. Unfortunately those with the power to change this dreadful system did not earn their own education. Having bought it they represent the problem itself rather than any possible solution.
3
Well now that the author has written 5 books and obviously has attained a certain level of professional success you would think that now he may be able to start paying that old debt back?
Does he not owe something? He writes very well. Much better than an individual who did not take advantage of the educational loans .So I think it's obvious .The educational opportunities he took advantage of were financed by the government and he has an obligation to pay that back.Very simple.
Does he not owe something? He writes very well. Much better than an individual who did not take advantage of the educational loans .So I think it's obvious .The educational opportunities he took advantage of were financed by the government and he has an obligation to pay that back.Very simple.
12
I have a problem with Mr. Siegel's decision, mainly because when he began taking loans out, college did not cost nearly what it does now.
Today, I agree the game is totally rigged and young people come out of school with debt that can approach the size of a mortgage, and no guarantee of a job that will be able to support it. I see my siblings and friends struggling to help their children avoid this burden.
But in the 70s, college did not cost what it does today. And if the writer (and his family) had thought rationally about what they could reasonably afford, he could have borrowed a great deal less, gone to a good state school, and ended up with a debt that he could afford to pay.
Or, if he believed he wanted to be a writer and so could not reasonably anticipate an income stream that could support a loan payoff, he could have opted not to borrow the money. I'd like to drive an expensive sports car and live in a mansion, but I don't go borrow money that I won't be able to pay back, for things I can't afford.
I am still paying back loans, from undergraduate school, graduate school, and law school. I make a respectable income, I'm not a 'master of the universe.' But I am still paying back all of these loans, because that's what I agreed to do when I borrowed the money. I guess that makes me stupid; why not just claim the system is rigged against me, and someone else should have to foot the bill?
Today, I agree the game is totally rigged and young people come out of school with debt that can approach the size of a mortgage, and no guarantee of a job that will be able to support it. I see my siblings and friends struggling to help their children avoid this burden.
But in the 70s, college did not cost what it does today. And if the writer (and his family) had thought rationally about what they could reasonably afford, he could have borrowed a great deal less, gone to a good state school, and ended up with a debt that he could afford to pay.
Or, if he believed he wanted to be a writer and so could not reasonably anticipate an income stream that could support a loan payoff, he could have opted not to borrow the money. I'd like to drive an expensive sports car and live in a mansion, but I don't go borrow money that I won't be able to pay back, for things I can't afford.
I am still paying back loans, from undergraduate school, graduate school, and law school. I make a respectable income, I'm not a 'master of the universe.' But I am still paying back all of these loans, because that's what I agreed to do when I borrowed the money. I guess that makes me stupid; why not just claim the system is rigged against me, and someone else should have to foot the bill?
13
The moral basis for his default seems to be that he believes education should be free. Why? Those with college educations make at least double the money as those without, so why should we pay them to have this privilege? Almost all rich kids go to college, and a much greater portion of middle class kids than poor kids. Do they get the free rides too? Only a slither of kids from poor and dysfunctional backgrounds are making it to college and don't say it's just about money - you can see the test scores, high drop out rates and poor performance in poor-area schools. Our tax dollars are not infinite - focus aid on helping the poor not the privileged.
6
I came from a very modest family, started working and saving at the age of 15, attended a state university, pursued a career as a writer and paid off my student loan, which was only $500. How can someone claim the moral high ground when they borrow money, promise to pay it back and then later change their minds because it would require taking a real job?
15
My path: Two years U.S. Army, 2 years community college (on the GI Bill), 2 years state college. Worked for about a dozen years, then (state) law school. I worked, mostly factories and warehouses, during all my time in school.
After law school, I had some student debt, but it was minimal -- mid five-figures. Went to work in the public sector, so it took a while to pay it off but I did. Now I'm debt-free and fairly well off.
Let's just say, my sympathy for this writer is limited.
After law school, I had some student debt, but it was minimal -- mid five-figures. Went to work in the public sector, so it took a while to pay it off but I did. Now I'm debt-free and fairly well off.
Let's just say, my sympathy for this writer is limited.
18
This is a wonderful and useful op-ed piece. It shows how corrupt the system is. These are our children, our families, that are being destroyed by pernicious lenders and an uncaring government. I think Bernie Sanders is the only politician saying that college should be free. Let's stop spending trillions on the military and make it happen.
8
I had a superb education at a state university in the days when tuition was $100 a semester for in state students. No loans necessary or available then. Any family could afford to send their children to college or you could work your way through college as I did. I had excellent professors and opportunities for good jobs when I graduated. All that has changed. Now if you want to be in tech, you have to go to Stanford or Berkeley. If you want to be in business you have to have an MBA from an elite grad school. How did this happen?
I am so sorry for the hardworking student who gambles a financial future on a college education and finds him or herself reduced to debtor class upon graduation. This must change and I encourage all students to vote in the next election for the candidate who promises to change it.
I am so sorry for the hardworking student who gambles a financial future on a college education and finds him or herself reduced to debtor class upon graduation. This must change and I encourage all students to vote in the next election for the candidate who promises to change it.
6
The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.
His argument would be better spoken and defended by someone who actually repaid their student loan. Such an argument would avoid the self-serving taint that this piece unfortunately presents.
His argument would be better spoken and defended by someone who actually repaid their student loan. Such an argument would avoid the self-serving taint that this piece unfortunately presents.
9
Lee's choice of not Wanting to repay is not the biggert problem here, it is the underlying problem when students as a whole can't ( and in some instances ) won't repay. The consequenses that these actions might trigger another major banking crises are real.
As we know it is society as a whole that pays, not just the lenders.
It is in the country's interest to insure that it's citizens can get a good education while being able to pay for it as well.
As we know it is society as a whole that pays, not just the lenders.
It is in the country's interest to insure that it's citizens can get a good education while being able to pay for it as well.
3
however one feels about the choices, to pay or not, the loan industry, the commodifiers of student debt are not exactly honest brokers; faulty record keeping includes gaps in time lines and currency of accounts, created as they are sold from one to another...federal oversight of these barracudas is for practical purposes, nil.
4
I went to law school and raked up huge student loans compounded by interest. While I paid them off when I hit 59, I have absolutely no problem with course the author has taken.
The whole student loan program is nothing more than racketeering supported by Congress.
The whole student loan program is nothing more than racketeering supported by Congress.
6
Because most college loan paybacks are guaranteed by the federal goverment they can not be forgiven through bancruptcy. This was a special law passed a decade ago to make sure that of all the deadbeats in this country, the college student was the only category that would never receive a new start. In the meantime, when Sally Mae, the quasi govermental student loan company was disolved, their executives received golden parachute payouts in the tens of millions of dollars. What a racket, Capitalism with a goverment guarantee. Elizabeth Warren is right , the system is rigged and until Washington is changed the midle class and below is going to keep taking it on the chin.
7
"defaulting on my student loans, ...was the only way I could survive without wasting my life in a job that had nothing to do with my particular usefulness to society."
So many people choose the other path: They pay their bills, work hard and still find time to write. I'd argue that the author is the one who is wasting his life, in self indulgence. Not to mention illegality. In what way is this useful to society?
So many people choose the other path: They pay their bills, work hard and still find time to write. I'd argue that the author is the one who is wasting his life, in self indulgence. Not to mention illegality. In what way is this useful to society?
9
It seems a lot of people feel entitled to go to a private university or out of state school. Most instate fees are at a level where ruinous felt is not required. Fancy undergrad is overrated. I'd help my kids out for a top shelf grad school, but spending a quarter million or more on undergrad is not justified by any available data. Anecdotally, I know struggling ivy leaguers and many successful people who did undergrad at SUNY or PA state schools etc.
4
I just defaulted, not as a choice but because I couldn't keep up even with a job paying $12.75 per hour. I don't make enough to cover rent below average for my area. Losing SNAP's $197 and an insurance premium that quadrupled while my gross income only doubled, I simply don't have anything left over after basic shelter, food and healthcare.
My chief problem is timeframes. It's not that I don't want to do the right thing but that while effectively my hands and feed are tied behind my back in poor employment, there has been no requesite lengthening of time for those knocked to the bottom to recover. It takes months to save even $100 dollars but there has been no similar lengthening of time by banks, student loans, hospitals and bill collectors. They were bailed out and now making big bucks off of those who weren' BECAUSE they weren't.
The student loans I took out were predicated on employment that would allow me to pay it back. I'm not even picky about it being in my field of expertise. There are NO jobs paying well enough. As I see it, the system has renigged on their side of the bargain while holding me to mine.
The finance industry that came roaring back should work together to refinance the student loans they are now forcing into default by those who did nothing more than what they were supposed to do.
My chief problem is timeframes. It's not that I don't want to do the right thing but that while effectively my hands and feed are tied behind my back in poor employment, there has been no requesite lengthening of time for those knocked to the bottom to recover. It takes months to save even $100 dollars but there has been no similar lengthening of time by banks, student loans, hospitals and bill collectors. They were bailed out and now making big bucks off of those who weren' BECAUSE they weren't.
The student loans I took out were predicated on employment that would allow me to pay it back. I'm not even picky about it being in my field of expertise. There are NO jobs paying well enough. As I see it, the system has renigged on their side of the bargain while holding me to mine.
The finance industry that came roaring back should work together to refinance the student loans they are now forcing into default by those who did nothing more than what they were supposed to do.
8
It isn't piety to expect people to pay their debts. It isn't piety to think that higher education is valuable. The writer lost me in the last paragraph.
It is a rotten system but the solution is for everyone to be irresponsible? That leads to free government-paid higher education somehow? All the people getting rich will be humbled and all will be well. That's not the likely outcome.
It is a rotten system but the solution is for everyone to be irresponsible? That leads to free government-paid higher education somehow? All the people getting rich will be humbled and all will be well. That's not the likely outcome.
1
There are many good arguments for student loan reform. This is not one of them. The writer does not even acknowledge recent legislation that makes most student loans survive bankruptcy. The writer does not realize that most people are taking out loans underwritten by banks that have not failed and have robust enforcement divisions. The writer casts his decision not to default as a moral decision in his favor, when in fact it is a business decision--neither moral nor immoral--and uses the morality he has assumed for himself as an argument in his favor.
Times editors, please find someone who will make a stronger argument.
Times editors, please find someone who will make a stronger argument.
8
I paid off my student loans fairly easily by going into the advertising industry. To me this is less respectable than Lee defaulting.
5
I consider myself both lucky and fortunate that, at the age of 50, my student loans were completely paid-off. Lucky because I was able to find a teaching job that allowed me to make ends meet. Fortunate because, in California, there was a grant that assisted me with student debt repayment IF I taught in a low-income neighborhood school as a Bilingual or Special Education teacher- and I did. Honestly, considering how expensive college tuition has become AND how difficult finding good employment is, I feel lucky and fortunate that I'm not a young person trying to cope with these same issues today. It isn't fair and it hurts both individuals and Society.
2
Every day, thousands of people take out car loans for automobiles that often do not meet their hopes and expectations. After a few years, it becomes apparent that their loans of between 20 and 50 thousand dollars went for a purchase that, to say the least, has become a disappointment. Here's the thing: they still are obligated to repay the loan.
Yes, it would be nice if college was free for everyone. And, yes, the loan system is somewhat predatory. But this writer is engaging in a massive exercise of denial. And he doesn't stop there. He is enlisting others to sign on to narcissism. Perhaps he hopes that after he surrounds himself with thousands (or even millions) of like minded individuals, he will be able to live with himself.
Yes, it would be nice if college was free for everyone. And, yes, the loan system is somewhat predatory. But this writer is engaging in a massive exercise of denial. And he doesn't stop there. He is enlisting others to sign on to narcissism. Perhaps he hopes that after he surrounds himself with thousands (or even millions) of like minded individuals, he will be able to live with himself.
5
I'm not convinced with the nobility of Lee Siegel's reason for not paying off his student loan debt.
I also have enormous student loan debt, but this is almost entirely due to my second master's degree at a private university, USC.
Like Siegel, I could not depend upon my father to help. My father, however, died from a long-term illness (MS). He had become disabled when I was in elementary school and died when I was in junior high.
My mother did not help me through college. I paid whatever loans did not cover by working, sometimes two jobs. I saw my fellow students who didn't have to work at all--not because they had good grades but because they had parents who could support them through college. That is always the story of the haves and have-nots.
I suffered several career setbacks--escaping domestic abuse and being stalked, two medical surgeries and a minor workers comp injury that left me permanently partially disabled. In this economy and considering the extreme pressure by my former company Yahoo Search Marketing to not report my workers comp case, it is hard for me to find a job with my partial disability.
Yet my husband and I are talking about how I will repay my student loans.
Since college, I have not published several books nor am I writing a memoir about my life and money like Siegel. I find Siegel's rationalization that "I chose life" to be self-indulgent and egotistical. My life is easier than my parents and I've heard hardship builds character.
I also have enormous student loan debt, but this is almost entirely due to my second master's degree at a private university, USC.
Like Siegel, I could not depend upon my father to help. My father, however, died from a long-term illness (MS). He had become disabled when I was in elementary school and died when I was in junior high.
My mother did not help me through college. I paid whatever loans did not cover by working, sometimes two jobs. I saw my fellow students who didn't have to work at all--not because they had good grades but because they had parents who could support them through college. That is always the story of the haves and have-nots.
I suffered several career setbacks--escaping domestic abuse and being stalked, two medical surgeries and a minor workers comp injury that left me permanently partially disabled. In this economy and considering the extreme pressure by my former company Yahoo Search Marketing to not report my workers comp case, it is hard for me to find a job with my partial disability.
Yet my husband and I are talking about how I will repay my student loans.
Since college, I have not published several books nor am I writing a memoir about my life and money like Siegel. I find Siegel's rationalization that "I chose life" to be self-indulgent and egotistical. My life is easier than my parents and I've heard hardship builds character.
9
I worked for a higher education coordinating board for several decades, and watched the rapacity of higher education institutions, who used the revenue from constant and massive tuition increases to pay more and more unneeded administrators, to create useless curricula like ethnic studies, and to reward faculty who taught less and performed increasingly useless (and sometimes fraudulent) research. The federal and state governments have been complicit in this theft of funds from students and parents, and so I agree with Mr. Siegel that defaulting on student loans, a form of civil disobedience, may be the only answer.
In addition, far too many students attend four-year institutions, and about half of them enter with academic deficiencies. This also should end, and would force students either to develop adequate math/English skills, or to attend a vocational institution that would give them real skills.
Allowing ill-prepared students to attend a research university, accumulate $30,000 in debt, and graduate with a degree in sociology, is insane.
In addition, far too many students attend four-year institutions, and about half of them enter with academic deficiencies. This also should end, and would force students either to develop adequate math/English skills, or to attend a vocational institution that would give them real skills.
Allowing ill-prepared students to attend a research university, accumulate $30,000 in debt, and graduate with a degree in sociology, is insane.
7
The writer would be more sympathetic if she were doing something less self-involved than being a writer, like being a social worker or public health professional working with low-income families. Then again, if she did that, she would have been able to take advantage of Public Service Loan Forgiveness, which would have expunged the remaining loan balance after 10 years of public service with a nonprofit or government agency.
Also, for those who think college is more expensive because professors are paid more, this is totally wrong. Universities cost more because education can't really be "scaled" and still needs a highly educated professional to teach classes and conduct research; because government support for universities has been gutted for decades, especially since the recession, meaning there are fewer subsidies for tuition; because universities are heavily regulated and thus have to keep hiring administrators; and because built infrastructure keeps falling apart and has to be rebuilt. If anything, professors get paid less than they should considering they have PhDs and years of experience, and considering *many* are now essentially temps with no benefits (i.e. adjuncts).
Also, for those who think college is more expensive because professors are paid more, this is totally wrong. Universities cost more because education can't really be "scaled" and still needs a highly educated professional to teach classes and conduct research; because government support for universities has been gutted for decades, especially since the recession, meaning there are fewer subsidies for tuition; because universities are heavily regulated and thus have to keep hiring administrators; and because built infrastructure keeps falling apart and has to be rebuilt. If anything, professors get paid less than they should considering they have PhDs and years of experience, and considering *many* are now essentially temps with no benefits (i.e. adjuncts).
2
Nothing reveals the entitlement mentality of the 21st century progressive quite like the comments section of any NYTimes piece about college admissions or the cost of attending college.
At 50 years of age, I am in a position to send my "privileged" children to college without taking out student loans because I took advantage of the opportunity to finance my own education with student loans.
Like the author, I attended a private university as an undergrad and earned a degree in English while accumulating $17,000 in student loan debt over four years, which was about as much as one could borrow as an undergrad in those years. A few years later, I attended law school at a public university, borrowing a total of about $45,000 over three years. With two parents working full time who earned less than $50,000 a year combined and four younger siblings, I would not have been able to pursue and obtain my education without the federal student loan program.
It took 15 years to do it, but I paid off my student loan debt in full while getting married and raising a young family. It wasn't always easy, but with good health, good luck, and good decisions, the income I earned in the respectable career I have been able to pursue as a direct benefit of the federal student loan program made it possible. That is how the system is supposed to work.
Lee Siegel should be ashamed of himself.
At 50 years of age, I am in a position to send my "privileged" children to college without taking out student loans because I took advantage of the opportunity to finance my own education with student loans.
Like the author, I attended a private university as an undergrad and earned a degree in English while accumulating $17,000 in student loan debt over four years, which was about as much as one could borrow as an undergrad in those years. A few years later, I attended law school at a public university, borrowing a total of about $45,000 over three years. With two parents working full time who earned less than $50,000 a year combined and four younger siblings, I would not have been able to pursue and obtain my education without the federal student loan program.
It took 15 years to do it, but I paid off my student loan debt in full while getting married and raising a young family. It wasn't always easy, but with good health, good luck, and good decisions, the income I earned in the respectable career I have been able to pursue as a direct benefit of the federal student loan program made it possible. That is how the system is supposed to work.
Lee Siegel should be ashamed of himself.
22
You are not more hardworking than the next generation; you simply benefitted from an era of lower tuition rates. Today, you can't go to law school anywhere (not an elite school, not a terrible school, not a public school...) and graduate with only $45k in debt, unless you get a full ride. The price of admission is more like $150k . No one can work their way through law school and afford that.
1
Why can't a default on student loans be seen as a consumer reaction to a particular product, which requires the provider to adjust their business practices in order to remain competitive within the market?
3
Basic universal test of ethics, which the writer hints at, is to ask "if everyone acted this way, what would happen?" The writer claims that the system would break down and then the US would decide to fund education with higher taxes.
More likely, ever fewer lower and middle income students would receive the opportunity that the author was given. Lending, borrowing are essential functions of society. You can argue for more redistribution, lower tuition, lower interest rates, larger grants. But claiming that defaulting on your student loans is ethical is absurd. Income based repayment plans exist. You are arguing to harm the next generation of would be students. Default increases the interest rates of everyone else, and you have basically stolen thousands of dollars from society.
More likely, ever fewer lower and middle income students would receive the opportunity that the author was given. Lending, borrowing are essential functions of society. You can argue for more redistribution, lower tuition, lower interest rates, larger grants. But claiming that defaulting on your student loans is ethical is absurd. Income based repayment plans exist. You are arguing to harm the next generation of would be students. Default increases the interest rates of everyone else, and you have basically stolen thousands of dollars from society.
2
I have more sympathy for today's kids than I do for the author.
40 years ago he could have easily done what I did 20 odd years ago.
Which is to say, work my way through college and not take out loans at all.
You decided you wanted something and were unwilling to do the work to get it. Cry me a river. There were plenty of alternative paths you could have
taken but you chose not to. "Your" plight does not merit much sympathy at all. You call others greedy, but want something for nothing. Except nothing is free, you are just taking from others.
There is something immoral in granting loans to kids for college degrees that will not enable them to pay those loans back in a timely fashion. It needs to
stop. True, it will likely cripple any number of "studies" programs which appear to do little other than teach the students to regurgitate the professor's belief system. That means that they too can become a "teacher", except that job is already filled, isn't it.
The sad truth is, is that government loans and grants have caused an explosion in the size of the schools with much of the tuition money not going to the teachers. As long as we keep increasing what we as a society are willing to pay, there is no reason to expect that, that trend will not continue.
There are a number of private schools that are little more than diploma mills that provide promises, but that's it. Loans to schools like that need to be voidable.
40 years ago he could have easily done what I did 20 odd years ago.
Which is to say, work my way through college and not take out loans at all.
You decided you wanted something and were unwilling to do the work to get it. Cry me a river. There were plenty of alternative paths you could have
taken but you chose not to. "Your" plight does not merit much sympathy at all. You call others greedy, but want something for nothing. Except nothing is free, you are just taking from others.
There is something immoral in granting loans to kids for college degrees that will not enable them to pay those loans back in a timely fashion. It needs to
stop. True, it will likely cripple any number of "studies" programs which appear to do little other than teach the students to regurgitate the professor's belief system. That means that they too can become a "teacher", except that job is already filled, isn't it.
The sad truth is, is that government loans and grants have caused an explosion in the size of the schools with much of the tuition money not going to the teachers. As long as we keep increasing what we as a society are willing to pay, there is no reason to expect that, that trend will not continue.
There are a number of private schools that are little more than diploma mills that provide promises, but that's it. Loans to schools like that need to be voidable.
If this is what qualifies as "critical thinking" by an "educated" person (that even repaying the low tuition rates that prevailed decades ago is too much to ask), then maybe we have too much "education" going on in American society.
2
There is also the factor that in certain fields, such as IT, savvy and experience are equal to a college degree, although that is not a failsafe observation. My friend's older son opted out of college, and after high school applied directly to Apple Genius Bar, was hired over a body of college graduates, some from quite tony schools, and that was his ticket to a good professional career. He stayed 5 years, then was hired by a major ad firm as Tech Support Manager. Last year they offered him the Directorship. I am sure there are other alternatives to college as well.
Nobody held a gun to her head to make her take the loan. If the argument is that as a minor, the consequences of long-term debt were not understood (even though an adult co-signed), then logical would dictate enacting legislation disallowing anybody under 21 from applying for any loan. Then we can shut down all the colleges. And if banks are all bloodsuckers for requiring repayment then let's just shutdown all banks. That would do wonders for the economy! (Yes, the banksters are evil, not because they give loans, but because they rig currency rates, rig interest rates, sell junk mortgage bundles without honest disclosure, etc, etc, etc. But that's another matter).
2
In many European countries, universities are publicly funded. Here in Geneva, students pay a fee of less than $600 per semester, and this can be waived in cases of financial hardship. The actual cost per student, to the state, is high; it's similar to the actual cost per student of a top American university. A burden to the taxpayer - but I've been living here over 40 years and have NEVER heard anyone complain that it is a waste of public money.
AND the young people here begin their working lives without debt. I graduated from Columbia decades ago - i and most of my friends were scholarship students; private and public scholarships were available; we all had to earn during the summers, but I did not know anyone then who had had to borrow money. The situation now is unacceptable - student debt is the shame of the nation.
Public education is a public good - an abandoned mantra. Now the trend is "Don''t send the poor kids to school, Don't tax the rich, Don't pay a living wage." Why is America going in the wrong direction?
AND the young people here begin their working lives without debt. I graduated from Columbia decades ago - i and most of my friends were scholarship students; private and public scholarships were available; we all had to earn during the summers, but I did not know anyone then who had had to borrow money. The situation now is unacceptable - student debt is the shame of the nation.
Public education is a public good - an abandoned mantra. Now the trend is "Don''t send the poor kids to school, Don't tax the rich, Don't pay a living wage." Why is America going in the wrong direction?
8
I get the drift of those who advise the author to "Man up" and pay his debt. But I sense that they don't understand the various factors that go into the student loan industry.
1. When you are 18, chances are not only do you not understand the ramifications of what you are doing, but based on the American Dream meme, you expect it will all work out fine.
2. The student loan industry is partner to the private college businesses. The ones that may, or most likely do not, give an education by field or quality to pay back loans.
3. Payback is still predicated on a ten year term, just like it was decades ago. Unrealistic with even middle of the road state colleges costing $40-$60K for four years. Remember, it isn't just tuition, you have to eat, too. Loans need to have payback terms that cover one's working life.
4. I know from personal experience that a debtor is in the hands of the servicing companies. I've had good ones, and a bad one severely damaged my credit as I spent MONTHS showing them how I qualified for a deferment. Finally, they gave it to me. My advice is always write letters and keep copies.
5. Unlike any other kind of debt, consumer or of nations, there is no escape hatch. My income is now only Social Security - I got my masters rather late in life - and I am bound for the annual paperwork reaming for the rest of my life. Death will be my escape hatch, I guess.
1. When you are 18, chances are not only do you not understand the ramifications of what you are doing, but based on the American Dream meme, you expect it will all work out fine.
2. The student loan industry is partner to the private college businesses. The ones that may, or most likely do not, give an education by field or quality to pay back loans.
3. Payback is still predicated on a ten year term, just like it was decades ago. Unrealistic with even middle of the road state colleges costing $40-$60K for four years. Remember, it isn't just tuition, you have to eat, too. Loans need to have payback terms that cover one's working life.
4. I know from personal experience that a debtor is in the hands of the servicing companies. I've had good ones, and a bad one severely damaged my credit as I spent MONTHS showing them how I qualified for a deferment. Finally, they gave it to me. My advice is always write letters and keep copies.
5. Unlike any other kind of debt, consumer or of nations, there is no escape hatch. My income is now only Social Security - I got my masters rather late in life - and I am bound for the annual paperwork reaming for the rest of my life. Death will be my escape hatch, I guess.
7
I f a college wants my taxpayer money or my guarantee, then regulate the cost of college and the salaries that professors and administrators are paid. Better yet, lets take a look at the billions of dollars that these colleges and Universities have in endowments. Are they being used to help students?
Typical liberal excuse - I'm a victim! Its not my fault! Its the evil bankers who engage in predatory lending! (What exactly is predatory lending.)
Typical liberal excuse - I'm a victim! Its not my fault! Its the evil bankers who engage in predatory lending! (What exactly is predatory lending.)
1
The social security receivers (me) have watched as university presidents created empires and drove the cost of college through the roof. Great football team, Prez!
We got medicare and subsidized prescription drugs. Young people got exorbitantly priced "higher" education largely taught by adjunct professors who make doodle.
We voted for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan at a cost of trillions of dollars instead of helping young people get a start in life. We dumped the cost of the wars into the national debt.
We bailed out banks instead of helping young people.
We give tax breaks to billionaire hedge fun managers and don't help young people.
We put huge numbers of young people in prison instead of vocational schools, community colleges and universities.
We build aircraft carriers instead of helping young people.
My generation has been shameful in its greed and what we have done to young people is the economic and social equivalent of child abuse.
We got medicare and subsidized prescription drugs. Young people got exorbitantly priced "higher" education largely taught by adjunct professors who make doodle.
We voted for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan at a cost of trillions of dollars instead of helping young people get a start in life. We dumped the cost of the wars into the national debt.
We bailed out banks instead of helping young people.
We give tax breaks to billionaire hedge fun managers and don't help young people.
We put huge numbers of young people in prison instead of vocational schools, community colleges and universities.
We build aircraft carriers instead of helping young people.
My generation has been shameful in its greed and what we have done to young people is the economic and social equivalent of child abuse.
6
The writer was irresponsible in not repaying his or her loan, especially since the institution in question was not a preatory for profit school. The school provided goods & services for which it deserves to be paid. Life is about choices and the writer chose poorly - with regard to their initial school and possibly their profession - since the latter cannot help the writer meet their obligations. They should have chosen a more affordable school to begin with. Given the countless millions NYT has made in advertising from educational institutions, publishing this piece is both hypocritical and irresponsible.
6
My niece's husband is a high end carpenter in Massachussetts. A few years ago I asked him what he was workng on. He replied that he was working on a 10 million dollar house on the waterfront in Marblehead. As that is a really pricey bit of real estate, I asked him what his client did. He told me he was a banker specializing in student loans. He told me the name of the bank and banker. I looked up the property in the real estate records and also the name of the bank. Yep, the property existed and the bank was extolling it expertise in student loans. Made me sick.
Default away kids or go to Germany. College is free there.
Default away kids or go to Germany. College is free there.
8
The author started school forty years ago when college cost much less than it does today. He should do the right thing and pay off his college loans. Even today a student can earn a low-cost college degree by going to community college for two years and transferring to a state college for two years. People who choose to go to more expensive private colleges cannot cry about high tuition later. Yes the author was young, but young adults are responsible for their decisions. If they buy a car, they have to pay for it. The same is true for education. The debts they do not pay are paid by others. Is that fair?
8
He has written five books which I assume means he has sufficient income to pay his loan in full. He took hist last loan out over forty years ago when college was certainly far more affordable. Tuition did not start to soar until the eighties and nineties. So now he essentially wants a free ride on the education system that made it possible to live the life he now has.
10
I am appalled that this guy thinks he is the poster child for student loan debt. Presumably he could have gone to a public university in his home state and incurred considerably less debt than his small private liberal arts school. And plenty of aspiring writers spend time working at another job to support their aspirations until they make it. But no, Mr. Siegel is too good for those mundane pursuits.
If you want to make a case for the misery of student debt, how about pick someone who couldn't even consider the private liberal arts school? Someone who had to take out loans for the state university and the chance for a career that would allow them to support their families? Possibly because those everyday folks would never consider defaulting on their loans?
If you want to make a case for the misery of student debt, how about pick someone who couldn't even consider the private liberal arts school? Someone who had to take out loans for the state university and the chance for a career that would allow them to support their families? Possibly because those everyday folks would never consider defaulting on their loans?
11
The author Lee Siegel has tried to rationalize his dishonesty, and failed. Paying back loans does take character, and grit. It means not going to fancy restaurants or taking expensive vacations.
Of course, the banksters are crooks, and higher education wastes a ton of money, especially on sports and exorbitant administrative expenses. But why should two wrongs make a right?
Many Americans have suffered as a consequence of capitalism. Should we rise up and rob the rich? Should we stop at theft? Rich people have harmed the masses for millennia. Does that justify murder? I don't think so.
What about the equally poor, or even poorer, folks who paid back their college debt? Are they a bunch of suckers? No, they are not. They merely have what Siegel lacks: good character. He is a jerk.
Of course, the banksters are crooks, and higher education wastes a ton of money, especially on sports and exorbitant administrative expenses. But why should two wrongs make a right?
Many Americans have suffered as a consequence of capitalism. Should we rise up and rob the rich? Should we stop at theft? Rich people have harmed the masses for millennia. Does that justify murder? I don't think so.
What about the equally poor, or even poorer, folks who paid back their college debt? Are they a bunch of suckers? No, they are not. They merely have what Siegel lacks: good character. He is a jerk.
11
Over 30 years ago, I graduated from a small liberal arts college with about $20K in debt and then got a masters degree, racking up another $15K, which in today's dollar would be about $75K. (I also received a Pell grant, a generous grant from the college, and worked during college.) I chose the other route, and got a job in a field that I probably would not otherwise have chosen and paid off my loans. It was one of the proudest days of my life.
I agree that we urgently need to address the cost of a private college in the US, and why it is way beyond the reach of most of our citizens. But in the meantime, we need practical financial education to help families to make an informed decision upfront about the alternatives available to them --community college, state schools, apprenticeships, etc. -- and how to compare the expected monthly payments of a loan with what they can expect to earn afterwards in a given field. I volunteer for a local nonprofit that gives need-based tuition grants, and I see many low- to middle-income families who qualify for a modest amount of federal or state aid and grants from a private college (or for-profit vocational school), but they still have gaps of tens of thousands of dollars a year, which will end up being financed, one way or another. If they had chosen a public college (or vocational school), they could either avoid or drastically reduce their debt loads.
I agree that we urgently need to address the cost of a private college in the US, and why it is way beyond the reach of most of our citizens. But in the meantime, we need practical financial education to help families to make an informed decision upfront about the alternatives available to them --community college, state schools, apprenticeships, etc. -- and how to compare the expected monthly payments of a loan with what they can expect to earn afterwards in a given field. I volunteer for a local nonprofit that gives need-based tuition grants, and I see many low- to middle-income families who qualify for a modest amount of federal or state aid and grants from a private college (or for-profit vocational school), but they still have gaps of tens of thousands of dollars a year, which will end up being financed, one way or another. If they had chosen a public college (or vocational school), they could either avoid or drastically reduce their debt loads.
4
Student loans, being debt bondage, have a system where if you default, another company will pick up your loan. The collection fees and interest are added to principal, which is why many in default owe multiples of the base debt. Credit cards have nothing on student loansharks. Defaulted student loans result in nonjudicial wage garnishment...much like IRS, they don't have to actually sue you for the balance, just drop a garnishment on you. The interest rates reflect the lack of any lienable property, but in an age where the discount window gives away free money, how we still hit our students for 10% is a scandal.
The other problem is that tuition has gone nuts. I'm spending more, adjusted for inflation, than my parents did to send my child to school. Indeed, she was admitted to my private Boston alma mater, but the cost was three times what my parents spent for me. The $5k loans I got helped most of the way, with a summer job and some parental support. Now, we have a doubled mortgage payment for a well regarded public university.
I consider the best gift I can give her is "no loan" when she gets out. This might also be called "why retirement savings are almost nonexistent", or "being a good parent".
One thing is for sure, the system has morphed into a horror show.
The other problem is that tuition has gone nuts. I'm spending more, adjusted for inflation, than my parents did to send my child to school. Indeed, she was admitted to my private Boston alma mater, but the cost was three times what my parents spent for me. The $5k loans I got helped most of the way, with a summer job and some parental support. Now, we have a doubled mortgage payment for a well regarded public university.
I consider the best gift I can give her is "no loan" when she gets out. This might also be called "why retirement savings are almost nonexistent", or "being a good parent".
One thing is for sure, the system has morphed into a horror show.
10
As a psychologist, I've worked with several patients with stories similar to ones described in the article and in comments here. One was, a teenager to a single parent with extremely poor judgement. Neither the parent nor the student had a clue about the debt that was being incurred, which will take 3 decades or more to pay off. And this patient is employed earning a good salary. Some pay only the minimum required with no idea about when the loan will be paid off, which is after they are deceased.
5
I am a registered nurse that returned to college at the age of fifty to obtain my BSN and Master's degree. My employer paid very little of the college tuition costs. I took out college loans for thousands of dollars with the expectation that I would pay the money back. I am now approaching sixty, still paying my monthly college loan payments which amount to half of one paycheck. I still have four years of payments before the loans are paid in entirety. My hope is that I stay employed long enough to pay the loans off. My fear is that I become sick or incapacitated and am force to stop working. In which case my husband will be saddled with the paying off my college debt. If I had to do it all over again, knowing what I know now, there's no way I would have returned to school. The college loan companies make if very easy to obtain the money. Most young people have no idea of how a $600 (or more) month college loan payment can impact their life.
428
In 2009 my daughter was exploring college options. I was exploring financing those options. I was outraged to find that in a time when the government was lending the "too big to fail" banks money @ close to .04% - Mortgages were around 4.5 %. Unsubsidized student loans were around 6.8% - if you were "lucky" you could get a subsidized loan for 6%.
That should tell us about our country's priorities and give lie to the mantra that debt to go to college is worth it. Apparently - the powers that be - who set the rate are more concerned with lining their pockets than improving the minds of America's future.
That should tell us about our country's priorities and give lie to the mantra that debt to go to college is worth it. Apparently - the powers that be - who set the rate are more concerned with lining their pockets than improving the minds of America's future.
13
Higher education is free in Germany and other advanced countries, but America is going in the opposite direction. There are three unfortunate causes of the soaring cost of college, and of college loans, listed in order of importance: (1) pandering politicians, who cut state support for higher education so they could lower taxes, have required schools to impose tuition increases to remain afloat. (2) government student loan programs started under Bush and continued by Obama charge students excessively high rates of interest to pay for tax cuts and other programs. (3) government regulations that require university compliance, such as Title IX, required the hiring of more administrators to do the paperwork. Those administrators then hire even more staff. Universities now pay for more administrators than professors, so it is more difficult for students to get a good education, or complete their degrees in 4 years. The solution is higher taxes on financial transactions and corporate profits to finance higher education.
28
People always point to free education in Europe but it is a bit of a misnomer. It is free if you get in but the number of free spots are not limitless. Europe has a vastly different education system than the US. It is decided fairly early on in one's academic career whether they are "college material" or not. Far fewer people go to university in a place like Germany than do in the US.
And that isn't such a bad thing. Germany does a very good job of providing vocational and technical training and does a pretty good job of providing decent jobs for non-university educated people.
But you can't just throw out that education is free in Europe without reminding people that many people who go to university in the US, wouldn't be going there in Europe. Generally speaking, the more "free" that an education is, the more selective they are in who is allowed to get it. The US is the land of second chances. You can be a screw-up in school but go to community college and find your way to university. That just doesn't happen in a lot of places.
And that isn't such a bad thing. Germany does a very good job of providing vocational and technical training and does a pretty good job of providing decent jobs for non-university educated people.
But you can't just throw out that education is free in Europe without reminding people that many people who go to university in the US, wouldn't be going there in Europe. Generally speaking, the more "free" that an education is, the more selective they are in who is allowed to get it. The US is the land of second chances. You can be a screw-up in school but go to community college and find your way to university. That just doesn't happen in a lot of places.
4
Even Third World countries offer their citizens free tertiary education. Give the constant harping here about the importance of education, why aren't we doing the same?
Nothing is free. Someone is paying for it, usually in the form of higher taxes that are paid even by those who do not go on to higher education. How fair is that?
1
I am intrigued how a mix of selfishness, weak moral character, and an outsize sense of entitlement can whip up such a froth of self-justification. After college graduation, I served 5 voluntary years in the military during the Vietnam Nam era, paid off 2 student loans, and worked hard making a valuable contribution to society for 46 years. Thus I feel good about myself, rather than living in a sea of guilt that moves me to justify a life of theft and fraud-driven delusion to the readership of the New York Times. Lee Siegel will bear this albatross until the debts are rightfully paid.
12
The educational system has become another form of organized crime, designed to rip off the poor and middle classes who are just trying to get an education. So anyone who is considering defaulting on their student loans should ignore the sanctimonious comments of many of the readers here who claim to be shocked and offended by the selfishness of the writer.
Or better yet, you should consider filing for bankruptcy and discharging your debt altogether, just like those pillars of society over on Wall Street do whenever it suits their needs. Of course, every know-nothing (including most bankruptcy lawyers) will tell you that student loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy, because they are too lazy to read the bankruptcy statute. Student loans may be discharged in bankruptcy, as long as they are more than 10 years past due and the debtor can show financial hardship. I know this is true because I filed for bankruptcy and discharged over $70,000 in student loan debt and interest in the mid 1990s. And yes, my debt was discharged by the bankruptcy court. Although congress has made it slightly more difficult to discharge student loan debt, it can still be done. And if anyone is burdened with crushing student loan debt that is 10 years past due, they may and should file a chapter 7 bankruptcy and get a fresh start, just like corporate America does on a regular basis. And ignore the Puritan busybodies shaking their fingers in moral outrage because they are idiots.
Or better yet, you should consider filing for bankruptcy and discharging your debt altogether, just like those pillars of society over on Wall Street do whenever it suits their needs. Of course, every know-nothing (including most bankruptcy lawyers) will tell you that student loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy, because they are too lazy to read the bankruptcy statute. Student loans may be discharged in bankruptcy, as long as they are more than 10 years past due and the debtor can show financial hardship. I know this is true because I filed for bankruptcy and discharged over $70,000 in student loan debt and interest in the mid 1990s. And yes, my debt was discharged by the bankruptcy court. Although congress has made it slightly more difficult to discharge student loan debt, it can still be done. And if anyone is burdened with crushing student loan debt that is 10 years past due, they may and should file a chapter 7 bankruptcy and get a fresh start, just like corporate America does on a regular basis. And ignore the Puritan busybodies shaking their fingers in moral outrage because they are idiots.
4
It's nice to propose that the government pay for a college education. Some countries do, and it's paid for by much higher taxes than we have in the U.S. I'd be all for that as an educated populace is a competitive advantage and the whole culture does better when more people are educated. However, until that day comes, you're still responsible for the choices you made. This level of selfish entitlement is nothing short of disgusting. You were 17 when you made the commitment--old enough to know what you were doing. And by defaulting, you make it more difficult for others to get loans, contribute to rising interest rates and make. Ironically, my college loans did play a role in my abounding a career in fine arts to be able to pay them. In the process, I found a fulfilling career, a level of financial security and the time to publish five books, with a sixth on the way. The utter lack of character and integrity the writer displays should make a "memoir about money" (memoir! sheesh!!) particularly amusing.
6
Anyone who can get into an expensive, high-quality private college can also get into a campus of a high-quality state university system. So borrowing a lot of money for private education is foolish and unnecessary.
However, I don't see why students borrowing for their education should have to pay the higher interest rates than banks have to pay to engage in casino capitalism. Playing games with exotic financial products does less for society than getting a high-quality education.
However, I don't see why students borrowing for their education should have to pay the higher interest rates than banks have to pay to engage in casino capitalism. Playing games with exotic financial products does less for society than getting a high-quality education.
6
Like our President, I believe a minimum of free Community College should be provided for all High School graduates with a GPA of 3.25 or above. Those grads with a 4.00 should be eligible for a Federally sponsored scholarship to a State College. Our politician all seem to spout that education is the road to a healthy economy and well being in general. It is time for us to put our money where our mouths are in this government of the people, for the people. Pay for it by taxing the millionaires and corporations that can afford to pay their CEOs outrageously.
17
Moved overseas and went into default because the Department of Education would not accept bank transfers from abroad. For 20 years, I have paid nothing and they cannot collect from me because I live overseas. We even have family jokes about the collection agency calls. Would like to have moved back to the US a few years ago. But I am successful here and see no reason to take the hit on bad credit, being chased all over the place, and generally having a miserable existence over there because they refused to accept my payment method in 1995. Looked at my account and my $12,000 loan now has a balance of $52,000. Since I am eligible for Social Security from my work as a teenager and in college, I will pay off the student loans a few years time after I retire. If the private sector held those loans, they would have accepted any payment offered and I would be free of the loans by now.....insane system....
13
Lee Siegel's cogent observation: "But I have found, after some decades on this earth, that the road to character is often paved with family money and family connections, not to mention 14 percent effective tax rates on seven-figure incomes."
One's education is of one's own making, but one's connections are what counts when it comes to surviving in the real world. It's harder to make connections when life is hustling from job to job… those of us who shower at night. We miss many of the opportunities presented to those with money and time. Those with the luxury to mingle with the gilded class in the Ivy League and to attend the right dinner parties get the gold ring.
What I find funny is how so many of the privileged set think they are part of the same world that the rest of us are in. "Born on third thinking they hit a triple." …thinking that a 3.5 at Columbia-Harvard-Yale is educationally meaningful.
Mr. Siegel is correct but braver than I… or maybe he has a few more connections for support. You use what you got. Most of us got the short end of the stick, even those of us who actually do good in the world. Our system is corrupt and rotting from the inside. Our system rewards speculators and usurers and punishes the real creators and curators. This can't go on forever, but I suspect the fall will be horrible and the Ivies will somehow land on their feet as the nouveau-oligarchs… which is more or less what we have now. We are still in the denial stage.
One's education is of one's own making, but one's connections are what counts when it comes to surviving in the real world. It's harder to make connections when life is hustling from job to job… those of us who shower at night. We miss many of the opportunities presented to those with money and time. Those with the luxury to mingle with the gilded class in the Ivy League and to attend the right dinner parties get the gold ring.
What I find funny is how so many of the privileged set think they are part of the same world that the rest of us are in. "Born on third thinking they hit a triple." …thinking that a 3.5 at Columbia-Harvard-Yale is educationally meaningful.
Mr. Siegel is correct but braver than I… or maybe he has a few more connections for support. You use what you got. Most of us got the short end of the stick, even those of us who actually do good in the world. Our system is corrupt and rotting from the inside. Our system rewards speculators and usurers and punishes the real creators and curators. This can't go on forever, but I suspect the fall will be horrible and the Ivies will somehow land on their feet as the nouveau-oligarchs… which is more or less what we have now. We are still in the denial stage.
14
Students these days struggle under a truly staggering load of debt. It took me many years to pay back my 10K of student-loan debt. Many of my students have close to 100K in debt (one student told me a couple of years ago that she had 80K of student-loan debt from her undergraduate education and that she would have to borrow even more money to get through law school). We cannot burden an entire generation with that kind of debilitating debt. We are either going to have to have a federal student-loan debt forgiveness program or we are going to have a revolution on our hands.
11
Another sad example of a situation that only exists in the US due to a system that fails to provide adequately for basic needs of its population - higher education, health, and pensions. Wealthy nations ask their rich to pay a slightly higher tax in order that everyone has reasonable fair access to these needs. We need to do the same.
20
The cost of a university education in America is now a luxury good accessible only to the privileged few, or those willing to bury themselves in debt. It's unsustainable though and as "video killed the radio star", the web will soon send higher education fees into free fall, re-balancing this unfortunate distortion and redistributing education more equitably and affordably.
6
How did the professors, administrators, custodial help get paid ? Because studenets paid to go to a college/university. There is an economic issue here. At one point can we expect people to live up to their responsibilities? I'm proud that I paid mine and my wife's student debt. At an early age it taught me to accept the fact that I owed money in return for a good education. What example is this author setting for students today. Her comments and suggestions that others might follow are another step towards all of us living in a welfare state.
6
Our leaders have created this situation where we, as a society, prefer that young people incur massive debt rather than have society invest in them as we did in our most prosperous times after WWII. This is foolish and short sighted. We are limiting the options and opportunities for our next generations, with the result that we America will continue to decline relative to other advanced societies, including Canada and most of Europe.
33
I don't "prefer that young people incur massive debt" at all. The fact is that today, many are unable to afford to pay for others when they are struggling to pay for themselves.
On top of that, there are ways to obtain a college degree that don't include high priced schools, the 'dorm experience' and all the other things that inflate the cost even higher. But people don't want that. They want the school that they want just because, the dorm and party life because that is the "real" college experience. To them, anything less is not a "real" college experience.
Like it or not-- and I've seen this with my own relatives and friends-- many (note that I did not say all) of today's young people have been raised by parents who did everything humanly possible to prevent their kids from being disappointed in any way or forced to go without, or make sacrifices. This is likely why this author and others have no guilt whatsoever at taking something they want and intentionally not paying for it. Sacrifice and frustration and everything else that doesn't make them "happy" are foreign concepts. Instead it's all about the infantile argument of "Well, THEY did X!" and use others' misdeeds to deflect the spotlight from themselves. Sad.
On top of that, there are ways to obtain a college degree that don't include high priced schools, the 'dorm experience' and all the other things that inflate the cost even higher. But people don't want that. They want the school that they want just because, the dorm and party life because that is the "real" college experience. To them, anything less is not a "real" college experience.
Like it or not-- and I've seen this with my own relatives and friends-- many (note that I did not say all) of today's young people have been raised by parents who did everything humanly possible to prevent their kids from being disappointed in any way or forced to go without, or make sacrifices. This is likely why this author and others have no guilt whatsoever at taking something they want and intentionally not paying for it. Sacrifice and frustration and everything else that doesn't make them "happy" are foreign concepts. Instead it's all about the infantile argument of "Well, THEY did X!" and use others' misdeeds to deflect the spotlight from themselves. Sad.
The Congressional decree/law making education debt the only debt impossible to declare bankruptcy from was done as a favor to the banks... you know, those institutions who were bailed out by the taxpayers (including former students laboring under the "no-default" law) rather than see banks fail. I guess the lesson here is that banks and education institutions (even those predatory "for profit" professional pocket-pickers) have lobbyists; students do not. Consider the lot of the student-borrower whose academic record is solid, but whose parent is laid off; the parent is no longer eligible to be a co-signer leaving the student ineligible to borrow to bet on his/her education. If the government guaranteed the student's eligibility, rather than act as guarantor that the student WOULD repay, there might be a realignment of interests. The government could be on the side of the students rather than the lobbyists for the institutions. Oh wait...that might make sense... never mind.
11
False... and a fairly irresponsible and ignorant comment. Student loans are guaranteed by the state, therefore the banks can suffer no losses on them to begin with. It is FURTHER worth noting that banks would never do this lending if they had to suffer losses, since about 15%+ of loans default, and interest rates are only 6%. Further, since those loans lack collateral, they cannot enter bankruptcy. No banker conspiracy here, please. It is a conspiracy of the federal state to use credit to support students, instead of outright grants. You see, the latter would be politically impossible, but guaranteeing student debt is an undercover way of doing the same thing, though through the conduit of the commercial banking system. Because our political system is so against transfer payments, the political class employed credit to advance their educational goals. I am not making this up and it is hardly debatable.
1
No, it was done to protect the taxpayers, since they are the ultimate guarantors of the loan. Think about it, a hardworking blue collar laborer who never went to college and incurred no debt being forced to cover for the likes of Mr. Siegel, who got the benefit of a grand education but forces others to pay for it.
2
"If everyone acted as I did, chaos would result. The entire structure of American higher education would change."
What would actually happen is no bank would ever make another student loan, leaving college only for the wealthy. A small price to pay so the writer can pursue his dream. He feigns guild and then provides a brief primer on how to do the same.
He reminds me of the people who sign up for the armed services to learn a career and get college paid for, but if called on to serve in combat suddenly develop a conscious objection. Reprehensible.
What would actually happen is no bank would ever make another student loan, leaving college only for the wealthy. A small price to pay so the writer can pursue his dream. He feigns guild and then provides a brief primer on how to do the same.
He reminds me of the people who sign up for the armed services to learn a career and get college paid for, but if called on to serve in combat suddenly develop a conscious objection. Reprehensible.
12
Most straightforward solution: end the bankruptcy 'exception' for student loans. Wall street firms can go bankrupt. Large corporations can go bankrupt. Even municipalities can go bankrupt yet student loaners cannot. Makes no sense and goes against the American tradition and culture of 'starting over' and renewal. If student loan bankruptcy was permitted it would force colleges and universities to reform their scandalous business model. It would force creditors to reexamine their predatory loan policies. It would end lifelong servitude for millions of former students and their families.
42
Your proposal would not force colleges to do anything, since they've already been paid, and in the end it wouldn't reform the banks, either, since the loans are guaranteed by Uncle Sam. The only ones hurt by your proposal are the taxpayers, including those who did not borrow money for higher education and got no benefit from Mr. Siegel's fecklessness.
If you want to go bankrupt and discharge student loans, then the degree should be revoked. Why should you get to keep something you did not pay for? Great message to send to those who scrimped to pay off their own loans...
As for businesses that are allowed to go bankrupt, the conditions of that situation-- if unfair-- should be addressed and changed to disallow them, not the other way around. The level of selfishness and irresponsibility is both astonishing and appalling.
As for businesses that are allowed to go bankrupt, the conditions of that situation-- if unfair-- should be addressed and changed to disallow them, not the other way around. The level of selfishness and irresponsibility is both astonishing and appalling.
1
Using the author's logic, if I buy a Ferrari using a bank loan, then wake up one day worried about the effects of auto emissions on global warming, it would be ok to default on the loan.
The author and his parents chose the elite private college, other options were available.
By the way, I wonder if the author is the Lee Siegel who had some issues over at the New Republic? It is my understanding that "that" Lee Siegel earned a degree or two from Columbia, hardly the cheap state college referenced in the opinion piece.
The author and his parents chose the elite private college, other options were available.
By the way, I wonder if the author is the Lee Siegel who had some issues over at the New Republic? It is my understanding that "that" Lee Siegel earned a degree or two from Columbia, hardly the cheap state college referenced in the opinion piece.
22
Except if you want to sell the Ferrari, you are able to, thusly reducing the debt of the loan if not paying it off entirely. Your apples-to-oranges comparison is probably fine in your mind, but the fact is that debt from student loans is unique in the landscape of financial dealings. If I could sell the piece of paper that my degree turned out to be worth and eliminate my loan and all of the professional gains I've made with it, the only difference in my life would be that I'd be debt-free. My job in the military as a diesel mechanic helped me more in my adult life than schooling did and I am a network engineer now.
The 'college loan industry' doesn't only target private to community college students, but entices young people looking at trade school carers whose graduates(or dropouts) face much poorer job security and lower earnings potential. Imagine the kid with a GED getting $60,000 in debt borrowed to go to culinary school and entering the restaurant industry in a recessionary economy. The industry doesn't lose with government guaranteed loans, and while a young entry level cook may make more than minimum wage of $7.50, there is little chance of making mortgage level student loan payments in addition to rent. Even low income graduates deal with the dilemma of guilt/frustration/shame from their inability to meet this obligation. The system doesn't support achievement.
11
Then the system should be changed to accommodate the earnings of the borrower. Means testing every year and adjustments as necessary up or down. Ditch the interest entirely. Or something. But no one, no one should be free from paying back the principal or their degree should be revoked.
2
A mixed bag, albeit a well written mixed bag. Certainly hits some high points with the avaricious assaults of the money lenders and their collection of cohorts and minions, including our vaunted federal government and the colleges and universities who milk this system with outrageous pricing for questionable gains. But at the same time the self-indulgent rationalization by Seigle is astounding ! He blithely just dumps the morality of his word and responsibility on to the wallets of the rest of us to chase and corral to pay his debt. That degree of hubris and outlandish attitude is truly astounding. He may write well, and be successful, but I rather think I don't like him.
32
There are quite a few examples of people who have spent years paying off loans like these, and still owe more than the original loan. In fact, they have paid more than the amount, and yet owe as much as twice that. This not "his debt", but a creation of a perverse and predatory financial system. Are taxpayers liable for the trillions of dollars of student debt. I doubt it. Unless the debt has all been bought up by banks that are "too big to fail." Let their shareholders eat it.
Banks love it when people default on their government backed student loans. At the time of default they are paid in full by the government and then they are able to turn around and sell that debt to collection agencies. Nice racket. Wonder why tuition is sky high? It's so easy to borrow large sums of money so the colleges just keep raising prices. Get rid of subsidized student loans and watch college tuition fees plummet. Then people would be able to work their way through school like they did a generation ago. (Working your way through school is impossible these days) And if you feel that these non-payers of student loans are letting the American tax payer down, you need to tell your congressman to change the laws instead of blaming the defaulters. Defaulters didn't create the system of government subsidized student loans. Why is it when a corporation goes through bankruptcy it's seen as a wise business decision, but when an individual does likewise it's a morality issue?
837
Well, to be fair, my father, WWII vet had all his paid for outright by the GI bill. My Boomer generation had loan packages. The two jobs I worked during school covered my books and board only, no tuition, in the 70's
"The lady doth protest too much."
3
Some actual, if anecdotal, numbers
The last job that I had paid, with benefits, and full time (40 hours) work:
$10/hour
After taxes and premiums my net income:
$14,400
Cost of instate tuition at a local state college with very low tuition after books, fees, levies, etc. BUT NOT housing or food
$4,500/semester - $9,000/annum
$14,400 - $9,000 = $5,400
Cheap rent in my area after utilities NOT INCLUDING cable/TV/Internet
$500/month = $6,000/annum
So after paying tuition and rent, working what is a good full time job in the area for people without a college degree I can expect to be $600 dollars in the hole, assuming that I don’t spend anything on food, transportation, a doctor of any kind, clothes...etc.
They tell me I can reasonably expect to earn after a college degree
$45,000
https://www.naceweb.org/s04022014/starting-salary-class-2014.aspx
This is a little over 3x as much as the non-college job.
College is a necessity for social mobility- that there are exceptions to this rule does not matter
You can not work full time to pay off college (for a BA/BS) - those jobs don’t exist in the US
You can not work full time while in college and not need loans or family money
A college degree does not entitle the degree holder to employment
So in short, you need it, you can’t afford it, you can’t work for it unless you have it, and once you get it, it might be worthless.
If I can’t afford to pay back the society that gave me this particular deal, I won’t lose sleep at night.
The last job that I had paid, with benefits, and full time (40 hours) work:
$10/hour
After taxes and premiums my net income:
$14,400
Cost of instate tuition at a local state college with very low tuition after books, fees, levies, etc. BUT NOT housing or food
$4,500/semester - $9,000/annum
$14,400 - $9,000 = $5,400
Cheap rent in my area after utilities NOT INCLUDING cable/TV/Internet
$500/month = $6,000/annum
So after paying tuition and rent, working what is a good full time job in the area for people without a college degree I can expect to be $600 dollars in the hole, assuming that I don’t spend anything on food, transportation, a doctor of any kind, clothes...etc.
They tell me I can reasonably expect to earn after a college degree
$45,000
https://www.naceweb.org/s04022014/starting-salary-class-2014.aspx
This is a little over 3x as much as the non-college job.
College is a necessity for social mobility- that there are exceptions to this rule does not matter
You can not work full time to pay off college (for a BA/BS) - those jobs don’t exist in the US
You can not work full time while in college and not need loans or family money
A college degree does not entitle the degree holder to employment
So in short, you need it, you can’t afford it, you can’t work for it unless you have it, and once you get it, it might be worthless.
If I can’t afford to pay back the society that gave me this particular deal, I won’t lose sleep at night.
15
I'm sorry, but "society" woukd not be the victim of your unwillingness to pay back your loans, individual taxpayers would be. This is the epitome of "moral hazard".
These comments appear to fall in three categories: sanctimonious moralists willing to excoriate the author because he broke the rules, even if the rules are unfair; contrarians who applaud and support him for breaking those same rules; and pragmatists who understand that the student loan system is not only broken, but rigged to maintain the unfairness, and so should be reformed in some manner. If congress does absolutely nothing to resolve this issue, my prediction is that within a few years many more people will chose to identify with categories 2 and 3.
19
I would be curious to see what your idea of reform is. People often allude to the fact that in places like Europe, that education is basically free. That is true, in many countries the tuition is perhaps five hundred euros a semester and students usually receive a stipend. But there are not very many of those places. Students who fail to get into university on those terms are either out in the cold or have to get in someplace as commercial students where education is not free. Free education limits access.
I'll be the first to admit that the price of education is rising to ridiculous levels. There is little doubt that the availability of student loans is a major cause. The other one is the proliferation of administrators at most universities. At a time when faculty salaries are basically flat and more and more courses are being taught by lower paid adjuncts, the amount of overhead continues to grow at an exponential rate.
But what is the answer? If student loans are the driver of the problem should we just abolish them? Before World War II and the GI Bill of Rights far fewer people went to college and the cost was quite reasonable. I'm not sure we want to go back to those days. But on the other hand I also think that this notion that everybody should go to university is a little misguided. There are non-university programs of shorter duration that train people for decent paying careers.
I'll be the first to admit that the price of education is rising to ridiculous levels. There is little doubt that the availability of student loans is a major cause. The other one is the proliferation of administrators at most universities. At a time when faculty salaries are basically flat and more and more courses are being taught by lower paid adjuncts, the amount of overhead continues to grow at an exponential rate.
But what is the answer? If student loans are the driver of the problem should we just abolish them? Before World War II and the GI Bill of Rights far fewer people went to college and the cost was quite reasonable. I'm not sure we want to go back to those days. But on the other hand I also think that this notion that everybody should go to university is a little misguided. There are non-university programs of shorter duration that train people for decent paying careers.
3
Wow. I too got my first federal student loan at age 17, but without a parental cosigner, forced to do so by my father in conjunction with a banker who did not ask my age. Some months later when I turned 18, my father stopped all support, and that loan set a higher interest rate for all subsequent loans. I proceeded to get my own education, sometimes living on far less than financial aid offices calculated because I had no family support and was unwilling to take out loans at 18% interest. It was grindingly hard to pay back my student loans, and I lacked for material comforts and markers of status. But I did it.
4
It sounds very much like someone wants a free lunch. The writer tells us they applied for their first student loan forty years ago; i.e. 1975 when tuition and fees were substantially lower. It is interesting that the comments from readers allude to a 1.0-1.3 trillion dollars of outstanding student loans (and interest) for 40-million students which is an average of $25K - $32K (the balance on a lot of car loans).
It's wonderful that the writer wanted to pursue his/her dreams without the need to worry about having to pay for it. How perceptive would they be if someone said their dream was to live rent-free with zero food costs in the writer's residence?
It's wonderful that the writer wanted to pursue his/her dreams without the need to worry about having to pay for it. How perceptive would they be if someone said their dream was to live rent-free with zero food costs in the writer's residence?
5
It is amazing to note that tuition across the top-200 universities is about the same. It does not matter whether the university is in expensive Manhattan or a small college town in the Mid-West where the costs should be a lot lower. One could probably make a case for price collusion. Why does it happen? Because thanks to easy access to credit the price-point is not a factor when the consumer (student) makes his choice.
Universities that claim tax exemption should be better regulated to ensure that tuition is not increasing at a rate much higher than inflation (CPI).
If tuition increases are capped or regulated by a PUC-like structure, universities will find ways to save money. Would the quality of education or research suffer - unlikely.
Universities that claim tax exemption should be better regulated to ensure that tuition is not increasing at a rate much higher than inflation (CPI).
If tuition increases are capped or regulated by a PUC-like structure, universities will find ways to save money. Would the quality of education or research suffer - unlikely.
The student loan system is a racket generating a life-time of indebtedness and debt-peonage, homo-indebted-economicus. The financial system is the new King George. Pick up your pitch forks and fit back!
Each year's new data shows an increase in the percentage of 65 year olds still paying college school loans. Today Federal Reserve economists have shown it to be approximately 3 percent of 65 year olds retiring with student loan debt. But the school loan program really takes off in the 1990s. By the time the current generation of college age students begins to retire, economists are predicting 20 - 40 percent will still have student loans!
Bottom-line: Default on school loans is a virtue.
Each year's new data shows an increase in the percentage of 65 year olds still paying college school loans. Today Federal Reserve economists have shown it to be approximately 3 percent of 65 year olds retiring with student loan debt. But the school loan program really takes off in the 1990s. By the time the current generation of college age students begins to retire, economists are predicting 20 - 40 percent will still have student loans!
Bottom-line: Default on school loans is a virtue.
6
It is inexcusable that education costs so much more here than in Europe, where if youu have the smarts you can go through doctorate courtesy of the taxpayers.
If education were totally a state responsibility, Red State students would be disadvantaged because their state government regards education as a support structure for the football team. It must be Federal, and financed by an increase in the progressive income tax.
Will that happen with the present Tea Party government? The question answers itself.
If education were totally a state responsibility, Red State students would be disadvantaged because their state government regards education as a support structure for the football team. It must be Federal, and financed by an increase in the progressive income tax.
Will that happen with the present Tea Party government? The question answers itself.
1
The student loan racket is making debt a necessity for getting into college.
Consider graduation (keeping in mind 40 percent of young people entering a four-year college fail to graduate):
Economists at the Federal Reserve of New York have demonstrated that more than 50 percent of recent college graduates are underemployed (i.e. unemployed + part-time + a job that does not require a college degree), and most jobs today are low-income/little or no benefits.
Default is not only a virtue, for many young people today it is a necessity.
Consider graduation (keeping in mind 40 percent of young people entering a four-year college fail to graduate):
Economists at the Federal Reserve of New York have demonstrated that more than 50 percent of recent college graduates are underemployed (i.e. unemployed + part-time + a job that does not require a college degree), and most jobs today are low-income/little or no benefits.
Default is not only a virtue, for many young people today it is a necessity.
8
Good story. I agree. I am from Australia and we have become more and more like your country in the pursuit of education. A smart country will be one that provides education to all. There should never be any class distinction that currently exists or is being promoted in our country.
I hope you can start a change as our current parliamentarians seem to want to follow the US type of education type model which I do believe is flawed and wrong.
We would be surprised in the benefits from a free education, that most of the current legislators in this country enjoyed.
I hope you can start a change as our current parliamentarians seem to want to follow the US type of education type model which I do believe is flawed and wrong.
We would be surprised in the benefits from a free education, that most of the current legislators in this country enjoyed.
1
"There would be a national shaming of colleges and universities for charging soaring tuition rates that are reaching lunatic levels." And why has the cost of college tuition increased 400% greater than the rate of inflation over the past 4 decades? : administrative fat. Not professor salaries which have been stagnant of this same period. Administrators do no teach. They'd very little to the central mission of colleges. The housing mortgage bubble broke in 2008. The college tuition bubble will soon break and lead to the closing of colleges that refuse to trim administrative fat.
3
So, Lee, just take the easy way out, stiff other students who are trying do to the right thing! Wait, you mean I am expected to pay my debts, what kind of capitalist plot is this! You can put this on your resume, I stiffed my school!
On the other side of the fence, the college administrations of today could care less about the average student, their job is to raise money from donors who want to have a building on campus named after them. Unfortunately college administrators are judged more on how much money they raise, versus the quality, or the cost effectiveness of the education provided! They hire people who don't want to teach these needy students, they just want to do "research," mostly for their own resume.
Somebody ought to develop a rating of schools based upon the success of the graduates versus the cost of the education received, the university bureaucracy appears to have become more bloated and insular, than the federal government.
On the other side of the fence, the college administrations of today could care less about the average student, their job is to raise money from donors who want to have a building on campus named after them. Unfortunately college administrators are judged more on how much money they raise, versus the quality, or the cost effectiveness of the education provided! They hire people who don't want to teach these needy students, they just want to do "research," mostly for their own resume.
Somebody ought to develop a rating of schools based upon the success of the graduates versus the cost of the education received, the university bureaucracy appears to have become more bloated and insular, than the federal government.
1
The comments page is almost as interesting as the editorial column. Everyone picks a side - Lee Siegel is a winning defaulter, who went in with his eyes wide open, and the outcome was ruinous, or, the student loan idea is adding to the bankruptcy of our society. I agree with the latter. Since the average age of entering college is 18, these young adults cannot possibly image the life long burden a loan will have on them. They rely on the reliability of two American institutions, banking and higher ed, to ensure that taking out this load is a good idea. How can they possibly think otherwise? This is only one of the crises facing my generation. It is disheartening. Even more so, it saddens me to read the comments of those who blame the author for the hard choice he made.
5
It sort of goes without saying that there is a tremendous difference in the viewpoint of an 18-year-old and the perspective of a 50-year-old, even given that the individual is the same person. Lee Siegel may have chosen differently if her older self were available for consultation thirty-some-odd years ago. In that light her important observations and experience, as charted in this piece of writing, should be handed to every person applying for a student loan along with the blank paperwork that urges signature. Longer range, let's transform the system so that people who yearn for college can get there without having to live like sharecroppers, unable to breathe, for decades after graduation.
2
The student loan situation is an outrage. It is equivalent to loansharking and forces many to take jobs they wouldn't otherwise have chosen.In effect they have become indentured servants. The writer is a hero to be emulated.
In a related matter, one of the most common causes of bankruptcy is unaffordable medical bills. All this does not occur in Canada or Europe. We are no longer the land of the free. The neoliberal economic model is enslaving us.
It is time to move. Our grandchildren need to live in a country where freedom is real.
In a related matter, one of the most common causes of bankruptcy is unaffordable medical bills. All this does not occur in Canada or Europe. We are no longer the land of the free. The neoliberal economic model is enslaving us.
It is time to move. Our grandchildren need to live in a country where freedom is real.
7
"The entire structure of American higher education would change." And so it should. It's largely a farce. It's more about athletics or partying than about education. How can partying in an atmosphere of greed prepare people to take up the mantle of leadership?
Colleges employ about 35,000 coaches. Scholarships are available in dozens of sports areas. Colleges function as farms for the NFL--the NFL draft is a bigger graduation ceremony for many than is the real, routine thing. Other sports that now attract scholarships... archery, bowling, skateboarding...
Even so, the vast majority at college have family money or debt. The whole charade is a disgrace. Too many decry the failings of public schools for the very young, but stand by the national rip-off that is Higher Ed.
Colleges employ about 35,000 coaches. Scholarships are available in dozens of sports areas. Colleges function as farms for the NFL--the NFL draft is a bigger graduation ceremony for many than is the real, routine thing. Other sports that now attract scholarships... archery, bowling, skateboarding...
Even so, the vast majority at college have family money or debt. The whole charade is a disgrace. Too many decry the failings of public schools for the very young, but stand by the national rip-off that is Higher Ed.
2
I think it's shameful that we live in a country where so many students have to take on a massive debt in order to get an education. That being said, it's not as though there are no other options. The author chose to go to an expensive private school and chose to take on a massive debt in order to do so. Why not a state school? I was fortunate enough to have parents that could afford to pay for my college education but I chose a state school (a very good one at that) as the cost less than half of a private. Nobody forced that choice on me and nobody forced taking on loans on the author either.
4
Lee feels entitled to a life of fun rather than productive work.
Borrowing money and refusing to repay it was "The only way I could survive without wasting my life in a job"
Rather than accepting that most people have to work for a living, Lee decided he was entitled to a life of fun, and borrowed money he couldn't repay in order to receive the benefits he wanted without offering something of equal value in return to society.
Rather than remaining bitter towards those who are more fortunate than himself and defrauding his creditors, Lee should have been grateful for his many blessings.
He chose to think "I'm entitled to more" rather than understand "I'm so lucky to have been born in America, where I can work hard, earn money and still have time to pursue my passions outside of work."
Borrowing money and refusing to repay it was "The only way I could survive without wasting my life in a job"
Rather than accepting that most people have to work for a living, Lee decided he was entitled to a life of fun, and borrowed money he couldn't repay in order to receive the benefits he wanted without offering something of equal value in return to society.
Rather than remaining bitter towards those who are more fortunate than himself and defrauding his creditors, Lee should have been grateful for his many blessings.
He chose to think "I'm entitled to more" rather than understand "I'm so lucky to have been born in America, where I can work hard, earn money and still have time to pursue my passions outside of work."
13
One way or the other, the government is going to get its money from the author. I applaud the Robin Hood sensibility, I really do, but this is a dangerous financial path.
It is interesting that this country constantly preaches higher education as a path to success, but want to consign young people to abject misery when they graduate.
I have friends who have absolutely astronomical student loan payments. I for one chose to attend a school that was not my dream, but offered me a full ride. I am eternally thankful for not having the burden of the debt. But deep down I always regretted not attending my dream school. It has lead to a life filled with what ifs?
It is interesting that this country constantly preaches higher education as a path to success, but want to consign young people to abject misery when they graduate.
I have friends who have absolutely astronomical student loan payments. I for one chose to attend a school that was not my dream, but offered me a full ride. I am eternally thankful for not having the burden of the debt. But deep down I always regretted not attending my dream school. It has lead to a life filled with what ifs?
1
The one thing that bothers me about Siegel's essay comes at the end, when he hopes for a national shaming of colleges due to tuition hikes. It's there that he needs more nuance. While private schools have been escalating tuition for decades in a perverse race to seem most exclusive, the rise of tuition in public institutions has been driven primarily by the lack of support from state legislatures. Neither Siegel or President Obama, who demagogued this issue two state-of-the-union speeches ago, casts sufficient attention on the divergent forces driving higher tuition. The private school story is different from the public school story. That needs greater attention from everyone, including the NYT.
1
Amazing article and powerful comments. I'm a teacher that just considered law school because even with income based repayment plans I barely have $600 to my name to pay for rent. After being accepted to law school I'm afraid of more student debt so I'm not going. What if I'm not in the top 5% of my law class? I'll have double the debt and republicans are looking to get rid of the 10% income repayment cap that currently exists for federal loans... My private loans have to be payed for full value each month. Luckily I'm dating someone that allows me to live for free so I can be a teacher and have that $600/ month so I won't have to rely on credit cards for groceries. Instead of law school maybe I should work nights as one of my colleagues does to pay down her student loans. I'm proud of my education I worked hard for and proud I can continue my education but due to the struggle of living pay check to pay check because I'm trying to be responsible and pay back my loans... I feel like a leech off the person in dating and a failure for making the decision of going to college and getting an education that will keep me confined for the next 25-30 years living paycheck to paycheck. For the middle class that desires to work in the public service sector, there rarely is a reward for going to college, more of a life of poverty. Furthering one's education again to reach potentially new salary levels is another 100,000 and additional 15-20 year gamble on trying to survive.
6
Glad you didn't add to the problem by going to law school. You made the right choice there, as the legal profession and legal education are in turmoil -- and not in a way that would benefit you as a new law graduate, assuming you were able to finish. Even graduates of top 20 law schools can end up regretting their choice when they face a dismal job market and extreme student debt.
When I read the beginning of this article I honestly thought I was reading my own story. I was fine with attending a state school but my mom insisted I attend the expensive, private school, as they would be " paying the bill". After 3 yrs at private univ, my father called and said, I can't afford to send you there anymore. In my case, I entered college at 18 and had signed for all loans without a co signer.
I ended up having to file a Ch 13 bankruptcy which meant I paid most of the debt off, but was in manageable payments, all interest was stopped from further accruing and my credit was restored in 7 years. However, I would not recommend defaulting or filing bankruptcy as a first means - this was a last resort for me.
The problem is that universities are so anxious to get their enrollment numbers up, they keep offering loan after loan without regard to if these kids will be able to repay after graduation.
What these kids really need are Financial Counsellors at the HS level, who would work along side Guidance Counselors to assess family ability to contribute and expected salary of anticipated career after graduation. Once understanding this, the financial and guidance counselors can guide them on what types of schools or majors would be the best fit for their situations.
I ended up having to file a Ch 13 bankruptcy which meant I paid most of the debt off, but was in manageable payments, all interest was stopped from further accruing and my credit was restored in 7 years. However, I would not recommend defaulting or filing bankruptcy as a first means - this was a last resort for me.
The problem is that universities are so anxious to get their enrollment numbers up, they keep offering loan after loan without regard to if these kids will be able to repay after graduation.
What these kids really need are Financial Counsellors at the HS level, who would work along side Guidance Counselors to assess family ability to contribute and expected salary of anticipated career after graduation. Once understanding this, the financial and guidance counselors can guide them on what types of schools or majors would be the best fit for their situations.
4
Mr. Siegel could be my son. I co-signed on four years of private student loans for my son who has since similarly decided not to repay his loans. Now those loans are in default, resulting in my own once perfect credit score being trashed. My son lives under the radar, similarly with a woman who allows him to live without the threat of collection. As a result of his behavior, now the state of Michigan is now going after my retirement income in spite of my own inability to earn my way out of this dilemma. My son has long since broken off our relationship and divorce has exposed my assets. And like Mr. Siegel, it all started in a private college admissions department with the promise that upon graduation my son would have no problems repaying the loans and the streets for everyone involved would be paved with the gold earned from the job he would never get. Yes, the system is a total failure and our so-called political leaders could not care less. And this in a country that once was the envy of the world. Shame on us all.
1180
What a terrible story. However, I have to say that you did expose yourself to this difficulty.
2
Thank god somebody said this. The reason tuition costs are rising at almost triple the rate of inflation year after year is because the government backs student loans. The banks will literally give student loans to anybody because there is no risk for them. As horrible as it sounds, the government needs to stop backing student loans, that's the only way tuition will ever come back down.
4
No, your son chose not to pay his loans. You bear the brunt. I assume that you read the loan notes at the time you signed?
Are you asking us to believe that the only reason you did so was that you--an adult--fell victim to the siren song of a college administrator?
Are you asking us to believe that the only reason you did so was that you--an adult--fell victim to the siren song of a college administrator?
1
Good on you, Lee for having the courage to do what you did! As a 67-year old I remember the days when courageous young men in your country and in mine, burnt their draft cards rather than fight a hideous and totally unjustified war in Vietnam. In a strange way I thought of them when I read your article.
As a democratic socialist, I regard education (along with health care) as a fundamental and inalienable right of all citizens and not just a privilege for the rich few. Free higher education is not unknown in a number of countries around the world. This gives those from poorer backgrounds who wish to take advantage of the opportunity a greater chance in life. And yes, education (and heath) services should be paid for through a progressive taxation system, as would be the expectation in any civilized and fair country.
Unfortunately in Australia, education and health are now both being run more and more as 'businesses' which provide services only to those able to pay. The trend whereby essential services are increasingly only available to the rich is utterly lamentable.
As a democratic socialist, I regard education (along with health care) as a fundamental and inalienable right of all citizens and not just a privilege for the rich few. Free higher education is not unknown in a number of countries around the world. This gives those from poorer backgrounds who wish to take advantage of the opportunity a greater chance in life. And yes, education (and heath) services should be paid for through a progressive taxation system, as would be the expectation in any civilized and fair country.
Unfortunately in Australia, education and health are now both being run more and more as 'businesses' which provide services only to those able to pay. The trend whereby essential services are increasingly only available to the rich is utterly lamentable.
1
Student loans are a form of unconscionable contract, a legal and philosophical concept that many of Mr. Siegel's critics are obviously unfamiliar with, and therefore morally unenforceable and (in my opinion, of course) null and void. It strikes me as unreasonable in the extreme to ask an 18 year old man to enter into a contractual obligation spanning many decades of his future life and tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of his future earnings, and the nature of which no person of that age is equipped to fully understand or evaluate.
Thus, I can only conclude that the student loan system in the U.S. is rotten to the core and is in fact a form of indentured servitude. The author of this piece, while perhaps not a saint or a paragon of virtue, makes an entirely valid and correct point. This was an important article that needed to be written (and a valuable example of the kind of service Mr. Lee can provide to society in his chosen career as a writer).
Thus, I can only conclude that the student loan system in the U.S. is rotten to the core and is in fact a form of indentured servitude. The author of this piece, while perhaps not a saint or a paragon of virtue, makes an entirely valid and correct point. This was an important article that needed to be written (and a valuable example of the kind of service Mr. Lee can provide to society in his chosen career as a writer).
10
It seems to me that the discussion has gone the wrong way and only concerns money. I consider that the real issue is that the economic reality is that jobs will only be available for people with higher education. Just as we eventually made it mandatory for states to provide free primary and secondary education, because without education your population is useless towards your economy, so we will need to provide free or nearly free higher education if we do not want to be left with masses of unemployable people. Investing in education is just like investing in infrastructure: no one wants to pay for it, but we all benefit. That is what taxes and government are for.
2
Strange how many commentators seem to really see 'paying your debts' as the highest of moral values. In a country that is increasingly built on debt, and on impoverishment of the many (including much of the middle class), the wealthy pay ever less taxes, and politicians (and the Supreme Court) legalize corruption.
Higher education should be given to those who can use it, not afford it, and student debt should repaid by ability. Either opportunity is a civil right, or our 'democracy' becomes an oligarchy and a plutocracy (which it already has).
We pay ridiculous amounts in taxes to 'fight terrorism', even though it is statistically less of a threat than random lightning strikes. This money could be better spent on education, on opportunity, on a democratic future for our country, one that is unfortunately slipping away into a morass of corruption and greed, created by Washington and Wall Street, enabled by the naive morality of who complain about the writer's choice.
Higher education should be given to those who can use it, not afford it, and student debt should repaid by ability. Either opportunity is a civil right, or our 'democracy' becomes an oligarchy and a plutocracy (which it already has).
We pay ridiculous amounts in taxes to 'fight terrorism', even though it is statistically less of a threat than random lightning strikes. This money could be better spent on education, on opportunity, on a democratic future for our country, one that is unfortunately slipping away into a morass of corruption and greed, created by Washington and Wall Street, enabled by the naive morality of who complain about the writer's choice.
7
Student debt is a complex issue of growing concern for Americans. It's easy to pass judgement especially as the author failed to address the facts contributing to increasing rates of student loan default. Increasing debt load as tuition rises, less state funding since 2008, and more private loan funding which is far less regulated compared to government backed loans are just some of the contibuting factors. Indeed at age 17, what teenager can appreciate the implications of what they are potentially signing up for without sound guidance from financially savvy parents and concerned professionals. TICAS dot org is the institute for college access and success provides a wealth of information and in depth analysis on this topic, including the annually published Project on Student Debt, covering average debt levels for each state and lists identifying notably high- and low-debt colleges.
Private college tuitions are one thing; much worse are the increasingly expensive state university tuitions. In the course of 40 years the tuition at the state college where I went in the U.S. has become 12 times more expensive. I seriously doubt incomes have risen that much in the same period.
State universities were supposed to help average people get a higher education; now many can't even afford them. How are people supposed to break out of poverty or be successful in life? That’s the real tragedy. And at the same time, the U.S. is competing with countries where college tuition at public universities is either free or strongly subsidized.
State universities were supposed to help average people get a higher education; now many can't even afford them. How are people supposed to break out of poverty or be successful in life? That’s the real tragedy. And at the same time, the U.S. is competing with countries where college tuition at public universities is either free or strongly subsidized.
5
The author has a strong sense of entitlement. Many of us taxpayers whose earnings support the availability of student loans, which allow many young people to pursue their educations and their own dreams, have higher incomes because of the jobs that our educations (and repaid student loans) made possible. Do we owe Lee Siegel, or does Lee Siegel owe us? Education at a small private liberal arts college is a luxury that, as it turns out, Lee's family couldn't afford. But Lee was able to get a good education at a taxpayer-supported state college. I agree that there is much wrong with the student loan system, including the usurious interest rates and the for-profit schools that push students into loans for worthless programs. But no one "owed" Lee a deluxe private education, which wasn't needed to pursue the dream of being a writer, any more than anyone "owes" Lee an upper middle-class lifestyle. And a lot of middle-income taxpayers are footing the bill for choices made by Lee and family.
5
Who was it that said, "When someone says its not the money, it's the principal of the thing; it's the money."?
The writer never divulges the amounts taken out in loans and how much was for actual tuition. As one who attended college in that same time frame mentioned and took out 2 semester loans my last year I recall the cost of tuition was much much lower and the max loan available for me in 1985 was $8500. This should not be compared to the astronomical sums being charged for tuition today and the situation that exists with millions of overburdened students and predatory lenders and their congress cronies that allow them free rein.
My degree was in Math so when the writer says the the balance is several times the principal now of course it would be after 40 years. Its hard to be sympathetic when you are only talking about 10-20 thousand compared to the 100 to 150k balances of today. In all fairness to the readers you should publish the amounts involved in the interest of journalistic integrity. Exactly how much of your loans went for tuition as opposed to whatever else you used it for?
The writer never divulges the amounts taken out in loans and how much was for actual tuition. As one who attended college in that same time frame mentioned and took out 2 semester loans my last year I recall the cost of tuition was much much lower and the max loan available for me in 1985 was $8500. This should not be compared to the astronomical sums being charged for tuition today and the situation that exists with millions of overburdened students and predatory lenders and their congress cronies that allow them free rein.
My degree was in Math so when the writer says the the balance is several times the principal now of course it would be after 40 years. Its hard to be sympathetic when you are only talking about 10-20 thousand compared to the 100 to 150k balances of today. In all fairness to the readers you should publish the amounts involved in the interest of journalistic integrity. Exactly how much of your loans went for tuition as opposed to whatever else you used it for?
4
For starters higher education in the US is one of the very few sectors of our vast economy where not only has productivity not improved, but instead has steadily declined. OK, what is productivity in higher education? I define it as producing bachelor degree holders. One can argue that quality of those degrees should enter in the equation – right; but I doubt that many would argue that the quality has gone up; so let’s just say it has stayed the same.
Then we find that over the last 50 years the real cost of this degree has more than doubled!
There are many reasons for this: tenure, an obsolete form of employment; ballooning admin staffs; hugely increased reporting requirements; but certainly one major factor has been the easy availability of credit to the purchasers of these services – students.
Clearly our student loan system is bad broken & needs urgently to be fixed. However, I do not condone Mr. Siegel’s decision to default on his loans. He made the decision to consume a product significantly more expensive that he could afford, it was not imposed upon him.
Yes, I too took out student loans to allow me to attend one of the top universities in the country. And paying it all back was at times painful. But I did it. Defaulters just pass the cost of their reneging on their obligations on to the majority of borrowers who do pay.
Then we find that over the last 50 years the real cost of this degree has more than doubled!
There are many reasons for this: tenure, an obsolete form of employment; ballooning admin staffs; hugely increased reporting requirements; but certainly one major factor has been the easy availability of credit to the purchasers of these services – students.
Clearly our student loan system is bad broken & needs urgently to be fixed. However, I do not condone Mr. Siegel’s decision to default on his loans. He made the decision to consume a product significantly more expensive that he could afford, it was not imposed upon him.
Yes, I too took out student loans to allow me to attend one of the top universities in the country. And paying it all back was at times painful. But I did it. Defaulters just pass the cost of their reneging on their obligations on to the majority of borrowers who do pay.
3
The comments here abusing Mr. Siegel are an example of the frenzies of moral outrage that the Internet allows small-minded people to engage in: they form a digital lynching party until they forget about it a few hours later and then get to indulge their supposed moral superiority.
Fact: People and corporations (who may or may not be people) default on debts every day of the year.
The United States has a bankruptcy system in place precisely because our government understands the need for businesses and individuals to get out of debt.
Before 1976, student loans could be discharged in bankruptcy proceedings. But that year, a law put a ban on bankruptcy discharges for the first 5 years after a federal student loan was originated. It did include an undue hardship allowance that could discharge the debt earlier.
Two years later, lawmakers proposed a bill that would have returned bankruptcy rights to student loan borrowers. However, that legislation failed, and discharging federal loans through bankruptcy continued to be prohibited during the first five years after loan origination.
In 1990, the five-year rule was extended to seven years. In 1998, the law was revised again to remove any time frame for allowable discharges, leaving undue hardship as the only way out. At the time, this only applied to federal student loans, but in 2005, a new law included private student loan debt.
Let's again make student loans as dischargeable in bankruptcy as mortgages and credit card debt.
Fact: People and corporations (who may or may not be people) default on debts every day of the year.
The United States has a bankruptcy system in place precisely because our government understands the need for businesses and individuals to get out of debt.
Before 1976, student loans could be discharged in bankruptcy proceedings. But that year, a law put a ban on bankruptcy discharges for the first 5 years after a federal student loan was originated. It did include an undue hardship allowance that could discharge the debt earlier.
Two years later, lawmakers proposed a bill that would have returned bankruptcy rights to student loan borrowers. However, that legislation failed, and discharging federal loans through bankruptcy continued to be prohibited during the first five years after loan origination.
In 1990, the five-year rule was extended to seven years. In 1998, the law was revised again to remove any time frame for allowable discharges, leaving undue hardship as the only way out. At the time, this only applied to federal student loans, but in 2005, a new law included private student loan debt.
Let's again make student loans as dischargeable in bankruptcy as mortgages and credit card debt.
5
The tone of Lee Siegel's is disturbing. I agree that most college undergraduates are too young to understand the full meaning a lifetime of debt before they're even begun to live, however they are still responsible to make a good faith effort to repay their loans.
Having said that the system is stacked against students in favor of the banks. Banks have carte blanche to do whatever they like to borrowers and the Department of Education claims to have no power to restrict them or protect students. In my instance, many years ago as a 4th year graduate student, the bank defaulted 4 of my student loans. I submitted the necessary paperwork for deferment and each time I called them to check the status I was told the forms were received and being processed. After 6 or 7 months this I was told I was fine. I then got a letter saying I was in default. Keep in mind I had other loans that had accepted the deferment requests and were in good standing. Shortly after the defaults the harassing phone calls from the collection agency began. I told them I was still in school and didn't have the money. They told me I was a horrible person because I didn't pay my bills. One man at the collection agency had the nerve to insult me by saying my mother must be ashamed of me for defaulting on the loans. CONT.
Having said that the system is stacked against students in favor of the banks. Banks have carte blanche to do whatever they like to borrowers and the Department of Education claims to have no power to restrict them or protect students. In my instance, many years ago as a 4th year graduate student, the bank defaulted 4 of my student loans. I submitted the necessary paperwork for deferment and each time I called them to check the status I was told the forms were received and being processed. After 6 or 7 months this I was told I was fine. I then got a letter saying I was in default. Keep in mind I had other loans that had accepted the deferment requests and were in good standing. Shortly after the defaults the harassing phone calls from the collection agency began. I told them I was still in school and didn't have the money. They told me I was a horrible person because I didn't pay my bills. One man at the collection agency had the nerve to insult me by saying my mother must be ashamed of me for defaulting on the loans. CONT.
This article highlights a lot of wrong with our society today: People refusing to take responsibility for their own actions and instead blaming someone (i.e. the "1%") or something (the government) for their woes.
Yes, I feel for people who have crippling financial debt, and as has been loosely alluded to in this article, there are measures that can be instituted to help them dig their way out. But, the callousness of this piece obscures those points.
Attending a "small liberal arts college" is neither a God-given right nor a societal standard; it is a personal decision. The author certainly knew the costs up front and was clearly aware that other less expensive options were available.
Subsequently choosing a career without a clear path to repayment of his accumulated debt is also suspect. Again, the author may think he has provided a great service to his country by writing, but that has been mitigated by the disservice created by his default, as well as his subsequent popularization of it. Somebody is paying for that default - and that somebody is you and I. We are all financial supporters of the government, and also, indirectly of the banks that wrote these loans.
We have taught our children to: 1) Be responsible for the choices they freely make, 2) Choose careers wisely. It is great to follow your passion, but make sure your passion can support your lifestyle, 3) Own up to your mistakes instead of blaming nebulous "others" for them.
Yes, I feel for people who have crippling financial debt, and as has been loosely alluded to in this article, there are measures that can be instituted to help them dig their way out. But, the callousness of this piece obscures those points.
Attending a "small liberal arts college" is neither a God-given right nor a societal standard; it is a personal decision. The author certainly knew the costs up front and was clearly aware that other less expensive options were available.
Subsequently choosing a career without a clear path to repayment of his accumulated debt is also suspect. Again, the author may think he has provided a great service to his country by writing, but that has been mitigated by the disservice created by his default, as well as his subsequent popularization of it. Somebody is paying for that default - and that somebody is you and I. We are all financial supporters of the government, and also, indirectly of the banks that wrote these loans.
We have taught our children to: 1) Be responsible for the choices they freely make, 2) Choose careers wisely. It is great to follow your passion, but make sure your passion can support your lifestyle, 3) Own up to your mistakes instead of blaming nebulous "others" for them.
9
The student loan system is a rigged scam of epic proportion. Rather than making loans directly the government must guarantee loans made at private institutions (no risk for lenders), student borrowers cannot declare bankruptcy to get a new start as all corporations and other individual forms of debtors can do and private collection agencies are used to harass students (more fees to private companies) for the rest of their lives. Why would a government that sees a college education as a good thing for the economy and the individual support such a system? The answer is that congress is filled with self interested individuals who serve the interests of their corporate backers and enriching themselves more than doing what is right for the public. Things like college education funding, renewable energy support, infrastructure support and the like which have clear future benefits can be safely demagogued and short changed without putting their election at risk. The american media is failing at its duty to make the public see what's going on right under their noses.
2
There is only one point missing from this much needed essay. It is a critical point, though. Today's college don't just take students' money; they take their shot at an education, something they didn't do in the author's day.
I'm a former professor. I know. But forget what I know. Just look at two facts from the "Academically Adrift" by Arum and Roksa.
In the 60's students studied 25 hours a week out of class and, after 2 years, their scores on a critical learning assessment test increased, on average, one standard deviation.
In the 2000's, the corresponding numbers are 13 and close to zero.
As shocking as those numbers are, they are just numbers. When you see young people being deprived of the education they need, and deserve, it gets much uglier. Here is some of what I have personally seen.
A professor at an "elite" school get a large grant for his department to produce American PhDs in an area of "national need", then proceed to grant doctorates to candidates who are so unqualified that they should not ever teach at the college level - anywhere. (An example is on my blog.)
PhDs like those just described teach at regional state schools where future high school teachers don't have a chance to learn from them. (Explanations and examples are on my blog.)
Deans (of Student Academic Integrity) emailing, in response to a letter describing cheating, that they want "retention". (This documented story is also on my, blog inside-higher-ed )
Something must be done.
I'm a former professor. I know. But forget what I know. Just look at two facts from the "Academically Adrift" by Arum and Roksa.
In the 60's students studied 25 hours a week out of class and, after 2 years, their scores on a critical learning assessment test increased, on average, one standard deviation.
In the 2000's, the corresponding numbers are 13 and close to zero.
As shocking as those numbers are, they are just numbers. When you see young people being deprived of the education they need, and deserve, it gets much uglier. Here is some of what I have personally seen.
A professor at an "elite" school get a large grant for his department to produce American PhDs in an area of "national need", then proceed to grant doctorates to candidates who are so unqualified that they should not ever teach at the college level - anywhere. (An example is on my blog.)
PhDs like those just described teach at regional state schools where future high school teachers don't have a chance to learn from them. (Explanations and examples are on my blog.)
Deans (of Student Academic Integrity) emailing, in response to a letter describing cheating, that they want "retention". (This documented story is also on my, blog inside-higher-ed )
Something must be done.
4
When I left graduate school, I chose the highest paying career path specifically to pay off my college and grad school loans. Three years and $180k later, I am still living "modestly" (compared to my other highly compensated colleagues) and concentrating on paying off my loans. However, I do not begrudge the author or anyone else who make a principled stance for intentionally defaulting on student loans. There is nothing sacrosanct about student loans or other personal loans. Institutions and even countries default on their loans all the time - the only difference is, the lenders are generally much more willing to renegotiate the terms and waive certain obligations before they default. The debt collector who is relentlessly pursuing the author probably paid ten cents on the dollar for his debt. When some of the most predatory and least ethical players in the market can buy your debt on the cheap, why should you be required to pay the full amount, plus hefty fees? I made my choice (which I was lucky to have), and I will continue to reap ample benefits from that choice. The author made a different choice and while I am sure his path brought him the kind of happiness one can't find at an investment firm or a law firm, he is also paying for that choice.
4
There are two gigantic involuntary transfers of wealth in process in the US. The first is the epic healthcare bill we as a country are racking up, and the second is the massive higher education bill. Unfortunately both are result of highly dysfunctional systems that have promoted excessive spending, and both will be paid by taxpayers and/or similarly by citizens in the form of higher interest rates and premiums when they come due.
It stinks that higher education has become so expensive, but I disagree with the stance that the answer is to self-destructively "stick it to the man". The man is all of us. As a free market society we need to find alternatives to broken systems so we don't perpetuate them (I do not plan to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on my childrens' education--and I will encourage them not to either). In the meantime, I as a taxpayer would appreciate it if everyone would continue to at least try to pay their bills.
It stinks that higher education has become so expensive, but I disagree with the stance that the answer is to self-destructively "stick it to the man". The man is all of us. As a free market society we need to find alternatives to broken systems so we don't perpetuate them (I do not plan to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on my childrens' education--and I will encourage them not to either). In the meantime, I as a taxpayer would appreciate it if everyone would continue to at least try to pay their bills.
it has become an acceptable right-of-passage for college students to take high denomination loans that, at best, will saddle them with debt for much of their lives. the debt, in turn, makes these students less price-sensitive in their choices of colleges to attend. the reduced price sensitivity, in turn, encourages universities to raise their prices (because demand is relatively price insensitive). the writer clearly makes this point in choice to attend a small, liberal arts private institution. they only later switched to a public university when a parent experienced financial hardship. even more obtusely, the writer later implies that their only two choices were taking massive loans to attend the private college or forgoing college, all together, rather than shopping for universities based on price, which would have inevitably landed them at a public university.
one reason that that many states have cut back support for their public universities is that the relative price insensitivity of college students with loans also allows public universities to raise their tuition rates without a drop-off in number of applications.
all to say, it should be clear that the well-intended federal policy of subsidized student loans has created a massive distortion in the market for higher education and is, in part, responsible for driving the rapid increase in tuition. the loan programs should be modified to encourage price competition among universities.
one reason that that many states have cut back support for their public universities is that the relative price insensitivity of college students with loans also allows public universities to raise their tuition rates without a drop-off in number of applications.
all to say, it should be clear that the well-intended federal policy of subsidized student loans has created a massive distortion in the market for higher education and is, in part, responsible for driving the rapid increase in tuition. the loan programs should be modified to encourage price competition among universities.
The author is writing a book about money? Do we need criminal types lecturing us on fiscal responsibility? I made the choice opposite Mr. Siegel's. I studied a field that virtually assured me of a good paying job when I graduated, even though I loved humanities.
I, too, attended a relatively expensive private college. Had I planned well, I might have graduated nearly debt free, thanks to a federal grant program. Instead I had debt, debt which I paid off in its entirety. I drove an old car, worked hard, lucked into an unexpected small inheritance.
I can't imagine I would have ever defaulted on my loans simply so I could do what pleased me. I decided against more education when I discovered that it would do little to increase my earning capacity and would put me further into debt due to tuition and lost wages. I was already qualified to earn a decent salary, which I did. I made double payments on my loan.
There's a lot of negativity attached to that money that Mr. Siegel stole from taxpayers. Unlikely I'll buy one of his books.
I, too, attended a relatively expensive private college. Had I planned well, I might have graduated nearly debt free, thanks to a federal grant program. Instead I had debt, debt which I paid off in its entirety. I drove an old car, worked hard, lucked into an unexpected small inheritance.
I can't imagine I would have ever defaulted on my loans simply so I could do what pleased me. I decided against more education when I discovered that it would do little to increase my earning capacity and would put me further into debt due to tuition and lost wages. I was already qualified to earn a decent salary, which I did. I made double payments on my loan.
There's a lot of negativity attached to that money that Mr. Siegel stole from taxpayers. Unlikely I'll buy one of his books.
11
I'm with Mr. Blake here. I did the exact same thing for the same reasons. When I make a promise, I keep it. Loans come with a promise to pay the money back.
Not particularly respectable behavior but, not unexpected either. The student loan process is almost like dealing with loan sharks. It is a classic example of unintended consequences. The government wanting to advance the education levels of it's people, despite what their economic situation, develops a low cost student loan program. Now everybody can "afford" to get a college education: only Adam Smith's invisible hand is at work. The colleges and universities raise their tuition because there it is easier for the student to pay. Were that not enough colleges now often require ridiculous requisites for majors, i.e. advanced chemistry courses for a interior design major. This I have seen with my own eyes. In many places the universities, not appreciating the competition from the JCs, have acquired or formed partnerships offering a "smooth transition" from JC to university. U of DE has done this causing JC rates to be equal to the university.
Now there is talk of free college for everyone. Of course with the government (the tax payer) paying, the government will then have determine the appropriate curriculum.
Now there is talk of free college for everyone. Of course with the government (the tax payer) paying, the government will then have determine the appropriate curriculum.
80
What makes you think that the consequences were unintended?
1
Other countires can do it, so why can't we when we're supposed to be the 'biggest and best'?
1
When I was a young man, my late father used to tell me that the world was my oyster. These days, when I talk to my older brother's 18 year old son, I ask him if he understands the concept of nondischargeable debt.
When I graduated from college 30 years ago, I had student loans totalling $2800. My payment was $50 a month. There is another element to this that people are not discussing. Most people my age (I'm 55) have less than $15,000 in retirement savings. There is a very large cohort of people who are going to be living on social security (among them, my older brother). Every year, people cash out almost $60 billion from their 401k accounts (the total yearly 401k investment in payroll deductions is about $300 billion according to the NYT).
What is social security? It is a vast system of transfer payments. We levy taxes on younger adults and write social security checks to retirees. We are laying the ground work for a disaster. In 20 years, this indentured generation will be supporting us. If they are deeply in debt, they will not be able to accumulate the wealth, start families and buy homes which will enable them to do so.
Thus, the $1.2 trillion in outstanding student loans poses an existential threat to long term well being of the baby boom generation.
Pete White
When I graduated from college 30 years ago, I had student loans totalling $2800. My payment was $50 a month. There is another element to this that people are not discussing. Most people my age (I'm 55) have less than $15,000 in retirement savings. There is a very large cohort of people who are going to be living on social security (among them, my older brother). Every year, people cash out almost $60 billion from their 401k accounts (the total yearly 401k investment in payroll deductions is about $300 billion according to the NYT).
What is social security? It is a vast system of transfer payments. We levy taxes on younger adults and write social security checks to retirees. We are laying the ground work for a disaster. In 20 years, this indentured generation will be supporting us. If they are deeply in debt, they will not be able to accumulate the wealth, start families and buy homes which will enable them to do so.
Thus, the $1.2 trillion in outstanding student loans poses an existential threat to long term well being of the baby boom generation.
Pete White
7
@Pete White New Haven
So the typical retiree hasn't spent 45 years paying FICA contributions? And the wider problem you're describing is not student loans but the low American propensity to save for retirement.
So the typical retiree hasn't spent 45 years paying FICA contributions? And the wider problem you're describing is not student loans but the low American propensity to save for retirement.
This scumbag, because that's what he is, is proud of his irresponsibility. Unfortunately actions have consequences. If everyone followed his example the availability of student loans would simply disappear or interest rates on this type of loan skyrocket thus putting further education beyond the reach of many lower and middle income people. Even as it is, his irresponsibility has already imposed a cost. Good borrowers pay for the defaults of bad borrowers like Siegel. Thus the unintended consequence of his irresponsibility would be to reinforce economic inequality. Easy says Siegel, the government should just provide free further education to everyone. And when does this happen? There's some merit in the argument that the cost of further education has been driven up by private and public universities which is a problem that needs to be addressed. The solution is not reckless destruction of the educational finance system.
27
You sound like someone firmly entrenched in the status quo. Which of course why it's so hard to improve education policies in the USA: folks invested in the status quo... and probably exploiting it. I think we can do better than that. Words like "scumbag" show you are not ready. But if we do not change, it is folks like you who are
reckless.
reckless.
2
@ Christopher
If you mean I'm opposed to anarchy then yes I'm entrenched in the status quo. Anarchy usually ends in tears. And yes this guy is a scumbag, he's certainly not some sort of Robin Hood as he thinks he is and he's duped you into believing.
If you mean I'm opposed to anarchy then yes I'm entrenched in the status quo. Anarchy usually ends in tears. And yes this guy is a scumbag, he's certainly not some sort of Robin Hood as he thinks he is and he's duped you into believing.
Bravo Lee Siegle for having the guts to 1, do what you did and 2, to write about it. I am stil paying student loans on my 2 kids education's while my own recession gutted retirment income, caused by the conduct of these same corrupt lending institutions is driving me into considering things like refinancing my nearly paid for home or declaring bankruptcy. Until I read this I did not even consider defaut on these loans that have been providing a subsidized / insured income stream to the moguls and 1%ers complete with a paltry taxbreak for me.
I just may reconsider.
What have these institutions done for me? That is debatable but one thing is for sure...after over 15 years and still paying, they have made their "reasonable" ROI in excess of the principal I borrowed. I AM SICK AND TIRED OF IT and resent being used as the teat of the monied class. I just may follow your lead and not take this absurd situation any longer.
I just may reconsider.
What have these institutions done for me? That is debatable but one thing is for sure...after over 15 years and still paying, they have made their "reasonable" ROI in excess of the principal I borrowed. I AM SICK AND TIRED OF IT and resent being used as the teat of the monied class. I just may follow your lead and not take this absurd situation any longer.
50
i'm sorry for your financial hardship, but your comments show little awareness that you took the decisions that, in part, led to your present state; for example, could you have lived more frugally and saved when your children were growing up such that the loan balances may have been reduced? perhaps not, but something to consider. did you children attend lower cost public universities, like the University of Houston? even if not their first choice, lots of research shows that choosing to attend high quality public institutions is a smart choice. lastly, perhaps the prevailing culture of borrowing now and paying (or defaulting) later encouraged your children to seek loans. as an experienced adult, however, perhaps you might have advised your children differently. i've witnessed so much arrogance and irresponsibility among my cohort of students who take large dollar student loans to support a nice, upper middle class lifestyle at some university with nice amenities.
lastly, i find it distasteful to see comments that seek to deflect one's own responsibilities by blaming the so-called 1% because one thinks they need to pay more taxes. we would best to separate public policy decisions - for example, should we restructure the student loan program and how we tax citizens - from one's personal responsibility for their decisions and actions.
lastly, i find it distasteful to see comments that seek to deflect one's own responsibilities by blaming the so-called 1% because one thinks they need to pay more taxes. we would best to separate public policy decisions - for example, should we restructure the student loan program and how we tax citizens - from one's personal responsibility for their decisions and actions.
1
If you were a corporation, you would transfer your debts to your subsidiary, and then shed it --and the result would be a wonderful tax advantage, and of course, a great credit rating, without the debt. The very same banks that loaned originally, will likely love to lend to you anew. Bonuses and executive perks, galore and conserved, of course.
And if you are a "too big to fail" corporation, you would also get free money from uncle Sam, and your very own window at the Federal Reserve, to borrow at ultra low interests, to reward you for your troubles and for your lack of business sense.
It is certainly lovely to be a corporation!
And if you are a "too big to fail" corporation, you would also get free money from uncle Sam, and your very own window at the Federal Reserve, to borrow at ultra low interests, to reward you for your troubles and for your lack of business sense.
It is certainly lovely to be a corporation!
118
Bravo! I applaud the authors mettle and courageous stance! Although many private educational institutions provide a fine education, they are elitist institutions that continue to generate an elite, privileged class. Yes, access to all institutions of higher education needs to be tuition free and with the goal of offering equal access to equal resources. We need to get over the idea that some people deserve a "better" education when in large measure private education offers a "better" network. Let state and federal governments fully fund higher education based on factors including the social need of a profession (teachers, doctors, artists) and the contributions to society of its graduates and teachers. Where to get the money? Tax existing endowments and gifts, yes, institute an education tax. Or just expand Harvard to be able to accept all qualified applicants. Good luck!
13
It would have been useful to include the writer's balance sheet and income statement in this article about money.
Instead it is simply propaganda bemoaning a $1+ Trillion dollar national student loan problem (part of a much larger US debt-liabilities time bomb) and a paean to either personal irresponsibility and incompetence, or both.
Instead it is simply propaganda bemoaning a $1+ Trillion dollar national student loan problem (part of a much larger US debt-liabilities time bomb) and a paean to either personal irresponsibility and incompetence, or both.
32
This opinion reminds me of the Jim Crow "company store" financial system and as owners of peoples souls.
1
Is "Self-disgust and lifelong unhappiness, destroying a precious young life" really a fair description of choosing a livelihood at least partly for financial considerations? Much (most, actually) of the world's population does things that they would rather not do, for financial/material reasons.
Most "elevated" fields of endeavor/study have some application that Is economically valued by one's fellow citizens. Practice law instead of philosophizing about ethics; practice engineering if you can't meet your financial obligations in ivory-tower science; etc., etc. You might be surprised at the satisfaction you find.
Most "elevated" fields of endeavor/study have some application that Is economically valued by one's fellow citizens. Practice law instead of philosophizing about ethics; practice engineering if you can't meet your financial obligations in ivory-tower science; etc., etc. You might be surprised at the satisfaction you find.
26
Why is education not free?
Why would it not be within the country's interest to educate its people?
Is education not the crux of a country's opportunity?
Are educated people not the backbone of civilisation? And why is education not available to all?
How can a young person fulfil his/her full potential and hence be useful to society when his/her start in life is marred by the ball and chain of debt?
Why would it not be within the country's interest to educate its people?
Is education not the crux of a country's opportunity?
Are educated people not the backbone of civilisation? And why is education not available to all?
How can a young person fulfil his/her full potential and hence be useful to society when his/her start in life is marred by the ball and chain of debt?
52
The Federal government lends our tax money to lying bankers at zero interest while it charges students more than ten percent for student loans. My daughter's senior year loan from Federal agency Sallie Mae was at 11%.
Senator Warren introduced a bill to require that both groups pay the same rate. Good idea but it went nowhere. Write your senator, and your future President (possibly Hillary).
To see other simple ideas to make America fair, go to YouTube and watch Comedy Party Platform (2 min 9 sec) and invite me to speak to your group. Thank you.
Senator Warren introduced a bill to require that both groups pay the same rate. Good idea but it went nowhere. Write your senator, and your future President (possibly Hillary).
To see other simple ideas to make America fair, go to YouTube and watch Comedy Party Platform (2 min 9 sec) and invite me to speak to your group. Thank you.
28
@ Bill Benton
I find it very hard to believe anyone is paying 11% on a student loan
I find it very hard to believe anyone is paying 11% on a student loan
1
john, if she went to school in the late 90's or early 2000's it was 10%
1
@ John from Hartford.
One of my student loans form Sallie Mae is at 15%. The govt needs to put regulations on private lenders offering student loans.
One of my student loans form Sallie Mae is at 15%. The govt needs to put regulations on private lenders offering student loans.
1
To those criticizing the author: there is a direct contradiction between saying 'taking a loan is a choice' and 'everyone should have access to education.' If you are going to criticize the working poor (not the author, but most people who default) for being irresponsible for taking a loan they cannot afford to go to college, then you are saying there is no right to education especially for those who can contribute best to fields that do not pay well (i.e. humanities), that the working poor should not educate themselves. If education should be a right, then taking a loan is not a choice.
51
The financial costs of higher education should be scaled according to income levels.
Yes, the easy availability of student loans has fostered the high cost of a private liberal arts education. But the writer's arrogance -- to summarize: I'm not responsible for my decisions -- is stupefying. Buck up, pay your student debt, [like I and the most of the rest of us did], and try to become a contributing member of society.
65
While I do think student loans should be at a nominal interest rate to cover administrative fees, I do not think it fair to borrow money having agreed to pay it back, and then just opt out of the repayment. Could have gone to communtiy college for far less, but that was not the choice the writer made. Could have become a "writer" on your own - for free! Also not the choice made. Live with your own choices. Be responsible.
This is the single best opinion article I have ever read in the NYT.
54
Also, one of the worst. Callous, indifferent, self-serving. In a real way, insuring that someone else doesn't get a loan that he or she needs.
I paid off my student loans, but I had to cash in but my kids' college savings accounts to do it. Now I'm in the clear... but they're screwed.
Fortunately they're dual U.S.-German citizens and speak German, so we're seriously considering sending them to university in Germany. Just as good an education, if not better, at a tiny fraction of the cost.
If, after graduating, they chose to settle in Europe, who could blame them? My kids will still prosper, although the U.S. would lose two bright young people.
It's not as if this is how I wanted their future to go, but it's shaping up to be inevitable.
Fortunately they're dual U.S.-German citizens and speak German, so we're seriously considering sending them to university in Germany. Just as good an education, if not better, at a tiny fraction of the cost.
If, after graduating, they chose to settle in Europe, who could blame them? My kids will still prosper, although the U.S. would lose two bright young people.
It's not as if this is how I wanted their future to go, but it's shaping up to be inevitable.
143
That's a wonderful choice for your children! With German health care & diploma they can't go wrong! As their world expands they will be globally advantaged. The "inevitable" sounds good. It's a win-win for them and sadly a great lose for the US.
2
Send them! We are considering doing the same, and our kids aren't even dual citizens! We do speak German and love Germany... and to my mind there are worse things than having grown kids in Europe down the line.
1
I know a young woman who did exactly that - go to Germany for her education. Worked for her.
1
I am totally supportive of this. I was able to pay back by law school loans, which totaled $90,000 before the interest, and which I accumulated in the late 80s and early 90s. I thought, and still believe, that law school is a con (and yes, I passed the California bar, first time) and that it is just a pass through mechanism to pay the instructors. Horse-you-know-what.
17
The instructors aren't the ones being paid ridiculous salaries. It's the administrators and coaches who get high 6 and 7-figure salaries.
When I went to university (Portland State, OR) 1967-71, I remember paying $169 per term and books were about $100. I worked summers for the US Forest Service on a fire suppression crew and made more than enough to graduate without any college debt, had a car and lived at home while I went to PSU. What happened in the last 40 years to saddle the American middle class with $1 Trillion in debt? Oh, that is the same middle class that pays for Medicaid and food stamps so that Walmart and numerous other corporations can pay sub-living wages. My son went to Portland Community College for 2 years, graduated with a associate degree in welding with a 3.8 average and the best job he could get was $14.75/hr. So, we have a couple of generations of middle class Americans paying ever more for a college education, going deeply in debt and getting paid ever less. We still have 400+ to 1 CEO to lowest paid worker compensation ratios while Germans set the ratio at 10, the French at 12 and education is free in both countries. The whole education debt default debate obscures the real issues that underlie the origins of this massive debt. Maybe we should be looking at Europe and asking "why not here?"
473
Re: ' Maybe we should be looking at Europe and asking "why not here?"'
Definitely, not "maybe".
Europe will bury us.
Definitely, not "maybe".
Europe will bury us.
2
In "Ancient Iraq" Dr. Georges Roux describes how every seven years or so debts were completely forgiven so everyone could get a fresh start--and so business not frozen by debts.
How can a civilization of 4,000 years ago be more enlightened than our own society?
In any case, education through four years of college should be covered by society, and same as some countries in Europe, students should be paid to go to school, enabled to study and learn. Good for individuals, good for our society.
How can a civilization of 4,000 years ago be more enlightened than our own society?
In any case, education through four years of college should be covered by society, and same as some countries in Europe, students should be paid to go to school, enabled to study and learn. Good for individuals, good for our society.
28
Yeah, yeah, talk about greed, call the banks greedy because they want their money back. Did you try to negotiate a settlement with them?
As the author points out, it sure is lucky most people don't have this deliberate deadbeat attitude.
As the author points out, it sure is lucky most people don't have this deliberate deadbeat attitude.
17
I agree with the spirit of this article, and I am horrified by all the comments saying we should just accept the system for what it is. You know, because we don't get to choose the system we live in or anything democratic like that.
I have a modest amount of student debt myself, but with the way the system works now, my payments are based on my income (Thanks, OBAMA!), and all debt is forgiven after ten years of income-contingent payments. Based on my current income and living expenses, my monthly payment is currently zero. There's a good chance I'll get away with paying only the principal on my loans by the time the ten years is up.
Even so, tuition in this country is an absolute scandal, and no amount of student loan reform will fix that. We have to go deeper than that.
I have a modest amount of student debt myself, but with the way the system works now, my payments are based on my income (Thanks, OBAMA!), and all debt is forgiven after ten years of income-contingent payments. Based on my current income and living expenses, my monthly payment is currently zero. There's a good chance I'll get away with paying only the principal on my loans by the time the ten years is up.
Even so, tuition in this country is an absolute scandal, and no amount of student loan reform will fix that. We have to go deeper than that.
114
"Even so, tuition in this country is an absolute scandal, and no amount of student loan reform will fix that. We have to go deeper than that."
Tuitions are a scandal because of government-backed student loans. The ability of people to pay for a college education has made it easy for colleges to raise their prices. A little like the way subsidies for women with children have allowed at least some women to have more children than they can ever rear properly.
Tuitions are a scandal because of government-backed student loans. The ability of people to pay for a college education has made it easy for colleges to raise their prices. A little like the way subsidies for women with children have allowed at least some women to have more children than they can ever rear properly.
Here in Canada compared to the US college tuition is much less expensive, loans are more regulated and after 8 years you can write them off in bankruptcy. And the student loan programs at the major banks are still profitable. The US system is insane. I would not begrudge anyone who makes a decision similar to the authors.
104
Brave moves and excellent op-ed, Lee.
You encourage the millions of young student debtors to consider your example. I would, too, though I'd advocate that the same kind of resistance you have modeled will be much more effective when executed in a collective, organized fashion. For more on that, those interested should look at the Debt Collective's website (debtcollective.org – see the blog) and the Debt Resister's Operations Manual (strikedebt.org/DROM – see the intro chapter and student debt chapter).
You encourage the millions of young student debtors to consider your example. I would, too, though I'd advocate that the same kind of resistance you have modeled will be much more effective when executed in a collective, organized fashion. For more on that, those interested should look at the Debt Collective's website (debtcollective.org – see the blog) and the Debt Resister's Operations Manual (strikedebt.org/DROM – see the intro chapter and student debt chapter).
23
You partly answered the question yourself: "Maybe the problem was that I had reached beyond my lower-middle-class origins and taken out loans to attend a small private college to begin with." Yes, a person from the middle class should not invest a huge sum of money in a degree in literature, a field well known to not pay well, even if you do get a job as a writer.
When I enrolled in engineering school, I learned that a much larger proportion of my fellow engineers than those in the school of literature were the first in their families to go to college. Evidently, us working class kids were picking fields more likely to yield well paid work.
We do not want to encourage large numbers of people to get expensive degrees, with no hope of finding work. And then stick the rest of us with the bill. At least attend a less expensive state school, if you must follow your dream.
When I enrolled in engineering school, I learned that a much larger proportion of my fellow engineers than those in the school of literature were the first in their families to go to college. Evidently, us working class kids were picking fields more likely to yield well paid work.
We do not want to encourage large numbers of people to get expensive degrees, with no hope of finding work. And then stick the rest of us with the bill. At least attend a less expensive state school, if you must follow your dream.
37
Hydraulic Engineer, let's try to separate these things. As a first-generation lower income person who went to college to earn a humanities degree--and paid back her loans from (eventually) well paid work--I differ from you here: There is monetary value in a humanities degree. Where the author of this essay went wrong is in trying to live educationally beyond his means. He made selfish choices and now blames everyone else for his deadbeat status. Clearly he didn't learn much from his education. I went to an affordable state school, not a private liberal arts college, and I worked a number of tedious jobs while in school for three degrees to pay down my debt while it was accruing. Then I lived well below my income in order to pay them off so others could go to school. The world needs engineers, true. But it also needs ethicists, artists, classicists and educators, or it's not a world worth living in.
"Yes, a person from the middle class should not invest a huge sum of money in a degree in literature, a field well known to not pay well, even if you do get a job as a writer."
Wow. Only the moneyed elites get to pursue their dreams in America?
Over the last 50 years every field has seen a large group of first time collegians from their families, and "us working class kids" like the author chose fields that appealed to our souls and sensibilities, regardless of upper income potential.
That is how it should be. Education (all education, not just for engineers and MBA's) is the key to happiness and prosperity and societal progress. It should never be discouraged or limited.
The key question is why have we let the elites maneuver upper education out of the effective reach of the rest of us? The better question is why are we standing by and letting the elites dismantle the public education system that we "working class" folks depend on to get to the upper tiers?
Wow. Only the moneyed elites get to pursue their dreams in America?
Over the last 50 years every field has seen a large group of first time collegians from their families, and "us working class kids" like the author chose fields that appealed to our souls and sensibilities, regardless of upper income potential.
That is how it should be. Education (all education, not just for engineers and MBA's) is the key to happiness and prosperity and societal progress. It should never be discouraged or limited.
The key question is why have we let the elites maneuver upper education out of the effective reach of the rest of us? The better question is why are we standing by and letting the elites dismantle the public education system that we "working class" folks depend on to get to the upper tiers?
1
Even you may recognize the names Homer, Aristotle, Plato, and Thucydides and Herodotus. Now name one banker or oligarch from that time. Culture is literature, philosophy, music and art. Bankers become forgotten corpses when they die.
3
I accrued ten times my college debt attending a law school that promised an employment rate that was an outright lie When I attempted to arrange a loan repayment plan that allowed me to still pay rent and eat on the low-wage job that I got after earning that law degree, I was told that my loans had been sold, then sold again, and that it was my responsibility to track who owned those loans. Interest rates changed without warning, and interest accrued despite my efforts to arrange an income-based forbearance. Loan forgiveness for public interest employment was only available if I worked full-time, and full-time teaching positions at colleges are essentially non-existent. I was encourage by my school and by loan companies to borrow money that I was assured I would be able to earn back, yet when that assurance was proven fraudulent, I had no recourse.
An indebted educated population is no threat to corporate interests, so long as we live in fear that our debt circumscribes our lives. Therefore, companies that own debt will continue to threaten and harangue, to garnish wages, to destroy credit reports to the extent that we are seen as unemployable and therefore perpetually unable to address the debt that we were strenuously encouraged to accumulate. Debt is worth more that productivity, and until that changes, all of us who are unable to discharge our educational debts are simply SOL.
An indebted educated population is no threat to corporate interests, so long as we live in fear that our debt circumscribes our lives. Therefore, companies that own debt will continue to threaten and harangue, to garnish wages, to destroy credit reports to the extent that we are seen as unemployable and therefore perpetually unable to address the debt that we were strenuously encouraged to accumulate. Debt is worth more that productivity, and until that changes, all of us who are unable to discharge our educational debts are simply SOL.
52
So, your seriously going to tell us that it's OK, to just default on money YOU borrowed and legitimately owe the bank? It's not like the held a gun to your head and forced you to borrow the money. You could have NOT taken on debt and paid cash for your schooling, and just taken longer to finish.
Point is, you borrowed the money, you owe the money. You should pay it. I married into $40k worth of student loan debt, had about $20k worth of car loan debt myself, AND owed $85k on a rental property, and you know what. We paid it ALL off in THREE years making less than what most teachers make in a year. We got serious about paying our debts, we lived on rice and beans, we sold stuff, we used our tax returns to pay on the debts. We got agressive and paid what we owed by living BELOW our means.
Shame on you for encouraging people to walk away from taking responsibility for their mistakes.
Point is, you borrowed the money, you owe the money. You should pay it. I married into $40k worth of student loan debt, had about $20k worth of car loan debt myself, AND owed $85k on a rental property, and you know what. We paid it ALL off in THREE years making less than what most teachers make in a year. We got serious about paying our debts, we lived on rice and beans, we sold stuff, we used our tax returns to pay on the debts. We got agressive and paid what we owed by living BELOW our means.
Shame on you for encouraging people to walk away from taking responsibility for their mistakes.
190
Actually, try practical. Businesses default on loan obligations all the time; they call it 'strategic default'. In fact, the status of default is written into the language of business contracts all the time, and furthermore, default is a common way for homeowners to attain better cash flow in the case that their mortgages are no longer affordable. This is why businesses count on a certain amount of loss every year due to defaults, and why the government allows a tax break for those losses. Statistically, there will be people that default, and the financial system validates that need. Without it, we'd be screwing a lot of businesses in this country as well. So, sorry, your 'shaming' on defaulters is not only misplaced, but detrimental to our country and society.
Why doesn't the author 'lend' their own money to aspiring students. And let's see how they feel when the now graduated student defaults and accuses them of being a vulture.
21
What about sticking your mother with the loans she cosigned so you could go to the college of your choice? Is there something glorious and highly moral above leaving her with that obligation? Because if they can't get you to pay they will get it from her. Disgusting.
23
You missed something -- the author's mother is deceased and cannot be called upon to repay. Her estate is most likely probated in completion. The moral of this is that no parent should co-sign on a child's loan unless the parent is willing to acknowledge that repayment is solely on the parent in the end. And, no parent should allow a child to bankrupt the household.
1
His mother is DEAD and the author clearly states this in the article above.
2
Me, did you not read the author's article in full?? He stated that his mother had passed away; possibly before he decided to default on his loans. Without knowing the sequence of events, it is also 'disgusting' to assume one scenario over another.
1
I see the author's point, truly, I do. I also think that student loan rates and terms are absurd and that massive reforms are needed, especially if we continue to preach to young people that an education is a ticket to advancement. That said, knowingly blowing off responsibility is a poor way to protest and is not laudatory- no, not even when "corporations do it too." I remember singing the dotted line for my loans. I remember the effort and budgetary management skills- and the time- it took to pay them off. My debt may have been far less than the author's, but I suspect my position in life was, too, and it was certainly significant for me. But I did it, even at a low paying job that I actually love. The choice is not between college or no college; it is between priorities- a big name school, to which I certainly would have been accepted, or a state school I could afford. I went overseas for graduate school, even though it was more expensive. I did this with my eyes open to the debt. By contrast, a colleague chose to rack up $120K for undergrad alone, even though he had a free ride at a different school. Am I better than he? No. Wiser? Perhaps. So, while I understand Lee, I do not agree and it angers me to see yet one more person be rewarded for skating a basic and self- imposed responsiblity.
18
It is irresponsible to pursue a career as a writer unless one has quick financial success (fewer than 1% of would-be writers do). That's self-indulgence. All able-bodied people have an obligation to contribute to society, and if no one wants to read what you write (or too few to make it pay a moderate income), you're not contributing.
16
No. There are many many industries that require writers. I don't know where you got that 1% figure but I've been writing for a living for a couple of decades and making a good living doing so. But no, I don't write fiction (although some of my clients would like me to).
May I point out that you not only read this article, but felt compelled to comment on it. As such, this writer's mission succeeded. Kudos to him!
The problem here is Lee's choice of occupation. We encourage young people to "follow their dreams", but realty is: jobs that are "fun", such as writing, very often don't pay well. Many students want to pursue this career, but so do many others--and there's an over supply of qualified people. If Lee has been able to survive and prosper as a writer, well, congratulations!
Students of Asian ethnicity often choose occupations that aren't much "fun", but which are lucrative, such as doctor, nurse, accountant or engineer. Alas, these require rigorous training, lots of dedication and hard work.
Before taking on any debt, you should consider your chances of paying it off. If your choice is writing, you may struggle. You may want to consider accounting.
Students of Asian ethnicity often choose occupations that aren't much "fun", but which are lucrative, such as doctor, nurse, accountant or engineer. Alas, these require rigorous training, lots of dedication and hard work.
Before taking on any debt, you should consider your chances of paying it off. If your choice is writing, you may struggle. You may want to consider accounting.
18
So are we supposed to do what we love only when it's feasible? Are all writers wealthy before they write? I'm only passable at math - should I have become an accountant anyway because it pays more than the library/museum degree I now hold, despite the fact that I love my work and happen to be good at it? The world needs writers from all backgrounds to expose people to various experiences, and the world needs librarians to bring those books to future readers and writers. The world does not need a bad accountant who only got the degree for financial reasons. I'm repaying my debt now on IBR and grateful for the option, but I am definitely still struggling.
I defaulted on my student loans due to my husband's illness. The collection agency did not care, and threatened to garnish my wages. So, I enrolled in a payment plan I could not afford, and they took my money each month even while I was not paying my mortgage or other bills. Then, after going through the "rehabilitation period" without missing a payment, the collection agency (General Revenue) invalidated the agreement and defaulted me again because I had written something on the form, when they said could not be altered. (What I had written was that they should not contact me at my workplace, since they were harassing me there) I complained to the BBB and Salliemae and ultimately got my agreement reinstated. The collection methods they use are brutal. My husband ultimately died, leaving me to raise 3 kids alone. I am currently able to pay on my own loans which are current. As for his loans, he had gone back to school later in life, and had not planned on getting a fatal lung disease. I sent paperwork many times while he was still alive to try and get him qualified for total and permanent disability. They kept refusing until he was finally dead.
People should repay their debts, but the system is rigged to often make that impossible. Why should someone pay for years and barely make a dent in the principal? Why should an education be limited to people who come from means? I think the author is correct to stand up to a system that is morally wrong.
People should repay their debts, but the system is rigged to often make that impossible. Why should someone pay for years and barely make a dent in the principal? Why should an education be limited to people who come from means? I think the author is correct to stand up to a system that is morally wrong.
1316
Thank you for sharing your experience. We should all be standing up to a system that treats people like you in such a reprehensible way. Our moral position in such a struggle would be stronger and the potential solutions would be simpler, however, were it not for the actions of irresponsible, whiny deadbeats like Lee Siegel, who simply decide for no legitimate reason that they no longer feel obligated to live up to their commitments.
6
This is MRS. The principle adjudicated in the Cleveland Municipal Court case entitled Discover Card v. Owens is one that should be explored. The judge was Robert Triozzi. Mrs. Owens had paid and paid on that credit card but never made much of a dent in the principal. He ruled that she had paid enough and his ruling against Discover Card should be explored in your case.
2
I cannot even see why the NY Times printed this essay and gave the author an audience for this nonsense. If you enter into a contract you are bound by the conditions. Simple as that. Someone lent you money, then pay it back. If you were not lucky enough to be born wealthy, well, life is not fair. You'll just have to become a self-made man or woman. If you were indeed born wealthy, you would undoubtedly have other problems, just not money problems. Does this author also feel entitled to drive a fancy car, wear a Rolex, live in a mansion, etc? Grow up!
78
If you took out a loan for let's say a car, paid for it to find that two wheels just fell off on the highway injuring you and many others, that's breech of contract. This is the true picture of student loans. Student loans were taken out in good faith to enter a market that has NOT shown good faith in return. Look at ALL the facts, not just the ones you find convenient and ignoring the rest.
1
Default is a term of the contract of many loans, and therefore an option, so technically, the author adhered to the terms of the contract. Learn to read.
1
Disgraceful! What a lack of responsibility. Maybe the author can find a nice forum in the NY Times but just imagine what society would became if he had his way. He may write beautifully, as being published in the Times' op-ed pages is well nearly impossible. Yet, this article is rubbish. Other people's tax brackets and personal circumstances are none of his concern. He hired the money. No one forced him to. Pay it back and show that you have integrity for heaven's sake.
32
Perhaps you should have attended the less expensive (and probably very good) state school from the very beginning? It looks like you bit off more than you could chew.
I agree that higher education has become too expensive. The answer, then, is to consider the price when you decide where to study.
Consider this paraphrasing of your piece: I chose an expensive school, borrowed to pay for it, chose a career that doesn't pay well, and now I'm upset. I'm sympathetic but I don't agree with the implication that you've been swindled.
Lastly - I don't agree with folks who reprimand you for defaulting. You should be free to do that if you decide it makes more sense to.
I agree that higher education has become too expensive. The answer, then, is to consider the price when you decide where to study.
Consider this paraphrasing of your piece: I chose an expensive school, borrowed to pay for it, chose a career that doesn't pay well, and now I'm upset. I'm sympathetic but I don't agree with the implication that you've been swindled.
Lastly - I don't agree with folks who reprimand you for defaulting. You should be free to do that if you decide it makes more sense to.
664
This does not take into consideration those who are in the same boat having gone to a state school. And what of a student whose state school does not have a strong or any program in what they want to do.
This also ignores the fact of students who do find jobs in their field, now so insecurely employed and poorly compensated they can't support themselves.
It also ignores the overall errosion of education if everyone, regardless of interest and sensibility are forced to just take what happens to be having entries when they need a positon.
The market works by there being a pool of workers to supply their needs but employment is not making the conditions for that pool to exist.
There is a disproportionate amount of risk heaped on students that is not shared by those who are demanding that risk that needs to be rebalanced before students can fairly be held responsible. As it is, students are left holding the dripping sack made leaky by those who have not felt the economic squeeze but only briefly and were bailed out. Not only are students not bailed out at all, they are the sole group whose feet are held to the bankruptcy fire, student loans being the only debt categorically exempt from any kind of forgiveness.
This also ignores the fact of students who do find jobs in their field, now so insecurely employed and poorly compensated they can't support themselves.
It also ignores the overall errosion of education if everyone, regardless of interest and sensibility are forced to just take what happens to be having entries when they need a positon.
The market works by there being a pool of workers to supply their needs but employment is not making the conditions for that pool to exist.
There is a disproportionate amount of risk heaped on students that is not shared by those who are demanding that risk that needs to be rebalanced before students can fairly be held responsible. As it is, students are left holding the dripping sack made leaky by those who have not felt the economic squeeze but only briefly and were bailed out. Not only are students not bailed out at all, they are the sole group whose feet are held to the bankruptcy fire, student loans being the only debt categorically exempt from any kind of forgiveness.
3
Except that his defaulting has now trashed his mother's credit. The government can take her tax refunds, garnish her wages, take 25% of her social security income. His mom is an innocent victim in this. Had she not co-signed then I would agree with you - he could make his own decisions and suffer the consequences. Instead he has victimized his mother (well presuming she is alive) and that action then becomes supremely self-centered and reprehensible.
7
Good paraphrasing, unless one subscribes to the idea that higher education in general should not put a person underwater, no matter what. Interest rates on higher ed loans should not be usurious.
I agree with you that the writer's outcome was predictable, but I object to the system that makes it so.
I agree with you that the writer's outcome was predictable, but I object to the system that makes it so.
2
You do know they will garnish your Social Security payments one day, don't you? http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/24/news/economy/social-security-student-debt/
7
The colleges and universities should carry their own paper and take the loss when students default. The taxpayer needs to get off the hook.
17
The author displays justifiable frustration. That being said this situation could have been avoided by doing some research. There is an insanse amount of unclaimed scholarship money earmarked by private donors for those of modest means and those from single parent situations. There are also many schools that have very large chunks of their endowments earmarked for scholarships. I graduated this year from a private school that has a sticker price over four years that costs almost 140k. No one pays that price. Unless you were a lost cause in high school you easily get almost half of that remitted through automatic scholarships. Also why would a writer who would struggle to pay for the experience they wanted, in this case private school, need to go to college before they could afford it. I understand that a degree is the price of admission for many jobs but surely not for admittedly poor paying freelance that could be carried out on the side of another job? Essentially the author complains about a situation they brought upon themselves.
7
Thanks to you, lower income people who need loans to pursue their careers and intend to pay it back like responsible members of society will find it more challenging. So bravo for stepping on lower class people on your way to some perverse sense of heroism.
91
I'm torn on this one. I worked during college, I lived in the cheapest of dorms, I housed with up to seven people, and I took out college loans. I know what the loans would cost and I paid them back. However, the colleges are definitely complicit I pushing kids into loans they cannot afford. No child should graduate from high school without being able to understand the terms of a loan, how to balance check book, what credit cards really cost, etc. There is a huge need for personal responsibility here. There is also a huge need for an affordable college experience.
23
With high numbers of college graduates having difficulty in finding employment one wonders if a college degree is all its cracked up to be. We may be suffering from an over supply of degrees of diminished value, worth no more than a high school diploma was a generation ago.
By demanding higher levels of academic credentials we have created a monster. We have bloated colleges and universities. The sheepskin matters more than education it certifies. In the process we subtract years from productive life while adding years of expense and debt while prolonging adolescence. We have "party schools" where Animal House thrives and sexual assaults are becoming commonplace. And we have college athletics, notably football and basketball, that indenture student athletes to unpaid service to over paid coaches for the purpose of filling stadiums with paying customers and alumni donors.
Not the least of our educational problem is the specter of debt that hangs over so many students by a system rigged to maximize profits for lending institutions. Is anyone happy with this?
Perhaps if instead of college we put the money into home and family we might live with less debt. There should be alternatives to ready our students for the real world.
As for you, Lee, why did you go to college to be a writer? All you really had to do was write, rewrite and keep writing until you sold something! Or did you need the permission a degree presumably confers?
By demanding higher levels of academic credentials we have created a monster. We have bloated colleges and universities. The sheepskin matters more than education it certifies. In the process we subtract years from productive life while adding years of expense and debt while prolonging adolescence. We have "party schools" where Animal House thrives and sexual assaults are becoming commonplace. And we have college athletics, notably football and basketball, that indenture student athletes to unpaid service to over paid coaches for the purpose of filling stadiums with paying customers and alumni donors.
Not the least of our educational problem is the specter of debt that hangs over so many students by a system rigged to maximize profits for lending institutions. Is anyone happy with this?
Perhaps if instead of college we put the money into home and family we might live with less debt. There should be alternatives to ready our students for the real world.
As for you, Lee, why did you go to college to be a writer? All you really had to do was write, rewrite and keep writing until you sold something! Or did you need the permission a degree presumably confers?
7
"We may be suffering from an over supply of degrees of diminished value, worth no more than a high school diploma was a generation ago."
There is no "may" about this. The first year of college has turned into the last year of high school from 30 years ago. Universities have themselves to blame for this. It is one thing to admit students who have promise and have been academically deprived, while it is another to lower what needs to be accomplished for a degree in order to take in more and more unprepared students. I am curious how much college debt is accrued because students are unprepared to finish a degree in 4 years.
There is no "may" about this. The first year of college has turned into the last year of high school from 30 years ago. Universities have themselves to blame for this. It is one thing to admit students who have promise and have been academically deprived, while it is another to lower what needs to be accomplished for a degree in order to take in more and more unprepared students. I am curious how much college debt is accrued because students are unprepared to finish a degree in 4 years.
Perfectly reasonable tactical decision. Corporations do it every day, going in and out of bankruptcy with nobody lecturing them about morality. Lenders love it when the peanut gallery helps enforce their student loan scams.
32
There was a article here in the NYTIMES about a person who defaulted on their student loan and when they applied for Social Security about 25 percent od their SS chaeck was withheld for payment for that loan. Through the years you can calculate your SS payment but they do not factor in the debt you own until the first check is processed and sent to you. What a surprise eh?
The amount taken from these checks isn't small. The average Social Security monthly check is $1200, the typical amount taken is $180.
According to the government data, the total amount garnished from social security checks last year came to $150 million.
The amount taken from these checks isn't small. The average Social Security monthly check is $1200, the typical amount taken is $180.
According to the government data, the total amount garnished from social security checks last year came to $150 million.
8
Congrats on a remarkably exhaustive and petulant rationalization. There is nothing noble in your shirking the responsibility. From what I can see the debt you claim to have liberated yourself from appears to have defined you...talk about irony.
126
For this author to forget that even though not personally paying debts someone with no college education is paying them. My other question is why did he go back to finish school!
Wow, I really feel worse now for having forgone college to live a life of soul-sucking jobs and an insecure career.
I could have followed my dream and left the bills for others to pay.
I'm glad that the world has another writer. I'm sure we're all better off.
I could have followed my dream and left the bills for others to pay.
I'm glad that the world has another writer. I'm sure we're all better off.
94
Where did all the money the colleges got go? This whole mess should have been called the college administrators bailout and enrichment plan. They made out like bandits, and Reagan, who ok'd it is long dead. Privatization works!
2
I borrowed and repaid my loans long ago when college for a middle-class student was still possible. I do recall, however, the credit card companies lining up to get new grads to sign up for their first credit cards. Start out right away owing money. It seemed to me the new version of the company store, "St. Peter don't call me cause I can't go, I owe my soul to Visa and MasterCard..." I thus chose to live abroad, living without many of the what man in the US consider "necessities", a car among the biggest. I am now in my fifties, have zero debt, substantial savings and travel the world...the best decision I ever made was not to get sucked into a consumer lifestyle as well as to do graduate studies abroad where the costs are low...
12
The writer should have a lien put on her book advances by the appropriate parties so we don't continue to pay (with our tax dollars) for her selfish irresponsibility.
31
This is a tough issue. I agree that young people have it much worse than I did when it comes to education costs. When I started in 1969, just about anyone could afford college. You could end up with some debt, to be sure, but most people could pay the loans in a reasonable amount of time. People do have to put some thought into where they go to college. Kids should receive financial counseling in high school to help them through the process. It does seem wrong that young and foolish people can run up big debts for many things, but that college debts are treated differently under the bankruptcy laws. The big lesson is to think hard before you run up a ton of debt. It may be OK if you are a medical student, but most people should opt for an affordable school.
7
What school is affordable these days? It is shameful.
Very interesting. Most of us agree that an individual person must be held accountable for being "responsible for individual choices," and should face public shame for failing in that obligation. But when a corporate person (as defined by the Supreme Court majority) uses bankruptcy as a strategic tool to "unlock shareholder value" by freeing itself of burdensome creditors, union contracts, employees, and non-executive pensions, its executives face little consequence and may even be rewarded with entitled bonuses?
But I digress. The fact is that the choice Lee Siegel made is dishonorable. On the other hand, it's an unconscionable disgrace that so many Americans must assume a debt that amounts to indentured servitude as a condition for obtaining what is supposed to be a necessary prerequisite to middle-class life. And it's an unconscionable disgrace that's unique to the United States. Along with world-leading rates of incarceration and income inequality, it's another example of what American Exceptionalism means today.
Given the true unfairness of college finance as the only debt from which there is no legal means of escape, perhaps default is sometimes a rational choice-- especially since the ascendancy of greed and Shareholder Value Capitalism has sundered the very notion of a "social contract" in this country. Indeed, the chaos from numerous indentured slaves severing their bonds maybe the only way to end the inequity.
But I digress. The fact is that the choice Lee Siegel made is dishonorable. On the other hand, it's an unconscionable disgrace that so many Americans must assume a debt that amounts to indentured servitude as a condition for obtaining what is supposed to be a necessary prerequisite to middle-class life. And it's an unconscionable disgrace that's unique to the United States. Along with world-leading rates of incarceration and income inequality, it's another example of what American Exceptionalism means today.
Given the true unfairness of college finance as the only debt from which there is no legal means of escape, perhaps default is sometimes a rational choice-- especially since the ascendancy of greed and Shareholder Value Capitalism has sundered the very notion of a "social contract" in this country. Indeed, the chaos from numerous indentured slaves severing their bonds maybe the only way to end the inequity.
25
Every day I am grateful for the student loans enabled me to go to college. It took me ten years of scrimping and working in a job I didn't love to repay those loans early. But I am grateful. I accepted money knowing it wasn't a gift, and I accepted my commitment to repay it. As an eighteen-year-old with no credit history, no assets, and no one to co-sign, I was able to pay for an invaluable education at an excellent college. Yes, the loans available to me came with more restrictions because I was a higher credit risk. But they came. And I needed them. Lee Siegel seems to think she's entitled to money without obligations and is the reason why those loans comes with higher burdens.
62
Oh what a fool I was for actually paying off my student loans! I'd be $45k richer and content with the knowledge that I really stuck it those taxpayer-backed loan guarantors.
But maybe the author can forgive my irrational need to fulfill the promises I've made. You see I was one of those simple, pitiable souls that felt compelled to weigh such plebeian considerations like pay scale and job stability into my career decision.
I guess we can't all be brave like him and follow our dreams while shamelessly stiffing fellow citizens. For that I harbor no ill will, after all he has so generously graced us with his talents.
But maybe the author can forgive my irrational need to fulfill the promises I've made. You see I was one of those simple, pitiable souls that felt compelled to weigh such plebeian considerations like pay scale and job stability into my career decision.
I guess we can't all be brave like him and follow our dreams while shamelessly stiffing fellow citizens. For that I harbor no ill will, after all he has so generously graced us with his talents.
39
You made a deal, then decided you didn't care and ignored what you promised to do.
If everyone would decide to also renege on all agreements and simply do as they want the world would be better, right? I mean this is the "right thing to do" isn't it?
Just imagine, your landlord finds a better renter, ignores the deal you have, and throws your stuff out on the curb tomorrow. HOORAY for ignoring a deal for personal benefit. This is good too, right?
Your bank decides they don't care about your balance, and steals all your money. Hooray?
YOur boss decides to pretend you never worked there and keep your last two paychecks for himself... Hooray again?
Hey, why not? Reneging on a deal for personal gain at the expense of others is a good thing, therefore we should all do it.
OH, you think this is only good when YOU do it? Yeah, things don't work like that.
Encourage a world where everyone skips out on deals they've made for personal gain if you want... I'm sure it'll be wonderful.
If everyone would decide to also renege on all agreements and simply do as they want the world would be better, right? I mean this is the "right thing to do" isn't it?
Just imagine, your landlord finds a better renter, ignores the deal you have, and throws your stuff out on the curb tomorrow. HOORAY for ignoring a deal for personal benefit. This is good too, right?
Your bank decides they don't care about your balance, and steals all your money. Hooray?
YOur boss decides to pretend you never worked there and keep your last two paychecks for himself... Hooray again?
Hey, why not? Reneging on a deal for personal gain at the expense of others is a good thing, therefore we should all do it.
OH, you think this is only good when YOU do it? Yeah, things don't work like that.
Encourage a world where everyone skips out on deals they've made for personal gain if you want... I'm sure it'll be wonderful.
59
In a perfect world there would be a pathway for repayment.
Let's allow individuals the same rights as corporations. I believe that SCOTUS supported that ruling. If plans don't work out, file, discharge the debt and move on.
Let's allow individuals the same rights as corporations. I believe that SCOTUS supported that ruling. If plans don't work out, file, discharge the debt and move on.
While the plight of many against the student loan load is real, there is a lot of rationalization and not a hint of responsibility in this column. It is sad in many respects. This is not about vultures or shaming, since two wrongs don't make one right. Perhaps the first college education starts with the choice of college. Incurring a huge loan with little prospect of repayment makes no sense. This is not to say everyone should go into S.T.E.M. education. Society needs people with a liberal art education. But there are plenty of affordable colleges providing a solid education. Worse, a liberal art education means a platform for a reflective life, not blaming others for one's problems. No, this is not moralizing. There are plenty of villains to go around; but heroes don't blame villains or join their rank, they lead by example. Perhaps the author needs to go back to college
33
Why can't US college be free or almost free -- as it is in the other industrialized countries? I was just speaking with a student at a Canadian college today. He pays $1000 a semester -- affordable.
Why are student loan interest rates so high? Why can't interest rate be 1% -- instead of 8%? The banks would still make money. Savings accounts don't get more than 1% interest.
Our young are overburdened with student loans -- every dime they earn after graduation has to be shoveled back to banks. This affects our economy - -badly. No money for anything but banks.
Why are student loan interest rates so high? Why can't interest rate be 1% -- instead of 8%? The banks would still make money. Savings accounts don't get more than 1% interest.
Our young are overburdened with student loans -- every dime they earn after graduation has to be shoveled back to banks. This affects our economy - -badly. No money for anything but banks.
1340
I would be careful about using the $1000 a semester costs as the Canadian student may have been referring to a two year institution (community college, in US terminology) not university (as most Canadians call a 4 year institution that would confer a bachelors degree). My friends who have children in Canadian universities pay about the same for their tuition as Americans pay for state universities (I am an American whose family all have children at various stages of the education process in the US).
2
You're right -- the people who benefit most from this rigged game are, again, the banksters. But prospective students can and should vote with their feet and look at more affordable options like starting at a community college and transferring to a state university. We've all been sold a bill of goods by publications like US News, that use ridiculous formulas to "rank" colleges and other higher ed programs. Parts of those formulas depend on massive numbers of students applying to the most elite programs and getting turned down, thereby boosting the "selectivity" number. If parents of high school students help their children make more affordable decisions, applying to affordable public schools, and discourage them from becoming more cannon fodder for student loan issuers, US News and elite private universities chasing rankings, this house of cards will start coming down.
4
Hello, I am a Canadian university student, as well, and I would love to know where this person pays 1000 a semester for tuition? Unless he attends Memorial University or is from Quebec and attends school in Quebec, the rest of the country does not have such low rates. My current 2 year post-degree BSW program will cost me about $20,000. I understand that it is not as insane as it is in the States, but I wanted to clarify that tuition is not the same cost across Canada, or even in the same province, and we do not all pay $1000/semester.
I also wish the best for your students crippled by amazing amounts of debt because of the cost of tuition at many American universities and colleges is simply unmanageable and unattainable.
I also wish the best for your students crippled by amazing amounts of debt because of the cost of tuition at many American universities and colleges is simply unmanageable and unattainable.
4
Don't go into long-term debt, people, I say...that sword of Damocles will be hanging around your neck all the rest of your life. Learn a skill that the world needs...and will always need. Buy a house that you can afford and not speculate with...unless you have the big balls to wait out the housing market upturn...Don't forget this waiting takes money and maybe, your sanity too!
2
Just another example of the downfall of our society. There are many options to make higher education affordable. Why, oh why did the author attend a private liberal arts college if she had to borrow money to do so? At the very least, choose a state school, or even better attend the local community college for the first few years, and get the general education requirements out of the way while living at home and paying a very reasonable tuition. My kids aren't happy about having to do this, but at least I know they won't be choosing to default on student loans later on.
19
Bravo to Mr. Siegel for thumbing his nose at the unfair and diabolical student loan system that sentences students to a lifetime of debt and indentured servitude. Bankruptcy protections must be restored and colleges must share the default risk. If more student debtors did this, we could bring the system to its knees and bring about real change.
23
I find it interesting that most who disagree with the writer's position do so from a "I did it, my children did it, so you better do it...or you're morally flawed." Have people understood the inherently dishonest, if not criminal practices of loan-making, selling, collecting, and ballooning interest rates? Speak of flawed morality once the truth is told about the part that financial institutions played in the great mortgage implosion of 2008. You've made your choice; Mr. Siegel has made his, and accepted the consequences. Falling in line with legal but unethical rules doesn't make one moral; it makes one compliant. And they are not the same.
19
Student loans are issued to people who are basically children. These kids have *no idea* what they're getting themselves into. American adults, e.g.,parents, are typically financial tyros themselves, never mind their children.
Meanwhile, every child is brainwashed from birth by parents, teachers and the media with the false message that college is some sort of requirement for a successful life.
Student loans and mortgages are part and parcel to a rotten system of extraction. The banks that make these loans should be held accountable for them when they prove unsound in large numbers, which they will...trust me.
Read my lips...no more bailouts!
Meanwhile, every child is brainwashed from birth by parents, teachers and the media with the false message that college is some sort of requirement for a successful life.
Student loans and mortgages are part and parcel to a rotten system of extraction. The banks that make these loans should be held accountable for them when they prove unsound in large numbers, which they will...trust me.
Read my lips...no more bailouts!
16
I don't get why the Times is publishing this piece. The author is basically using the situation of today's students as the reason she defaulted on her loans 30 years ago. The connections made in this piece are very convenient and really weak.
Life is a series of decisions, some good or some bad. But part of being an adult is taking responsibility for choices you make and figuring it out. Grow up.
Life is a series of decisions, some good or some bad. But part of being an adult is taking responsibility for choices you make and figuring it out. Grow up.
34
This column is a homerun.
5
The loan officer at the bank didn't force you to sign for your college loan. No one forced you to go to a private school, when you could have started out at a state school and received an excellent education for a lot less money. You could have found a part time job to help finance your education while in school.
You appeared to give little thought to making choices based on your family's financial situation at the time, signed a loan agreement, and decided to forgo all responsibility. That behavior is reminiscent of the people who were greedy and wanted a bigger house than they could afford, then walked away when they couldn't pay the mortgage. They contributed to the financial meltdown along with the predatory banks.
Banks are not friends and care only about themselves, but that doesn't entitle any of us to completely abrogate our financial obligations. Yet you seem to want to place all the blame on financial and academic institutions and the wealthy, yet refuse to accept any responsibility for your own decisions that have created the situation you're now in. Take a good look in the mirror.
You appeared to give little thought to making choices based on your family's financial situation at the time, signed a loan agreement, and decided to forgo all responsibility. That behavior is reminiscent of the people who were greedy and wanted a bigger house than they could afford, then walked away when they couldn't pay the mortgage. They contributed to the financial meltdown along with the predatory banks.
Banks are not friends and care only about themselves, but that doesn't entitle any of us to completely abrogate our financial obligations. Yet you seem to want to place all the blame on financial and academic institutions and the wealthy, yet refuse to accept any responsibility for your own decisions that have created the situation you're now in. Take a good look in the mirror.
27
Indenturing young people with massive unsecured debts before they've acquired any assets or means of repayment while preemptively rendering that debt virtually impossible to discharge in bankruptcy is nothing less than a legal form of enslavement...unconscionable.
Ethics does not necessarily dictate loan repayment. That will entirely depend upon the motives and circumstances of the borrower. Ethics does, however, make it wrong to profit from an abusive system of indentured servitude.
Ethics does not necessarily dictate loan repayment. That will entirely depend upon the motives and circumstances of the borrower. Ethics does, however, make it wrong to profit from an abusive system of indentured servitude.
14
Unless the author dies penniless, I hope the lender will be able to colllect what is owed by the author from his or her estate.
2
I was a divorced mother of three in the late 1980's. I wanted to finish college in hope of bettering my family’s circumstances. I signed a note for $5000. Just $5000.
I quit school when I was laid off in the early 90's during a recession that shut down the government for a few weeks. I paid on the loan for a while, but defaulted when the only work I could find was as a temp secretary. My ex-husband decided that this merited a custody battle for my children (which I won) further depleting my financial and emotional resources.
It was the blackest time of my life.
With default, penalties and interest continue to accrue; collection agencies hounded me relentlessly. I have never fully recovered.
My debt is now over $25000 with penalties and interest. 12 years ago, I arranged loan for $8000 that I offered as settlement on the then $15000 debt. I felt a $3000 penalty on the default was reasonable and fair. The collection agency turned it down.
Unlike other debt, student loans never “age out.”. My credit is permanently ruined. With a monthly payment plan, penalties and interest continue to accrue making paying off the debt impossible. I'm over 60, and have no hope of ever restoring my credit or my life. All for $5000.
The student loan program puts other predatory lenders to shame. The author is right - it’s legal but immoral, and I no longer feel any obligation to submit to such a system. My life is worth more than $5000, whatever the government thinks
I quit school when I was laid off in the early 90's during a recession that shut down the government for a few weeks. I paid on the loan for a while, but defaulted when the only work I could find was as a temp secretary. My ex-husband decided that this merited a custody battle for my children (which I won) further depleting my financial and emotional resources.
It was the blackest time of my life.
With default, penalties and interest continue to accrue; collection agencies hounded me relentlessly. I have never fully recovered.
My debt is now over $25000 with penalties and interest. 12 years ago, I arranged loan for $8000 that I offered as settlement on the then $15000 debt. I felt a $3000 penalty on the default was reasonable and fair. The collection agency turned it down.
Unlike other debt, student loans never “age out.”. My credit is permanently ruined. With a monthly payment plan, penalties and interest continue to accrue making paying off the debt impossible. I'm over 60, and have no hope of ever restoring my credit or my life. All for $5000.
The student loan program puts other predatory lenders to shame. The author is right - it’s legal but immoral, and I no longer feel any obligation to submit to such a system. My life is worth more than $5000, whatever the government thinks
2013
It's not a student loan program that afflicts you. It is a student loansharking program.
4
What made you think that the $3000 penalty on the default was fair and reasonable?
1
One of the big issues about Student Loans is when you're 18 years old and so excited about finally starting on the road to adulthood, you honestly have no idea what you're signing up for. I remember the application process for a student loan back in 1978 which was on 3 part paper (remember that?) in tiny font with barely enough room to actually write anything let alone read what you're getting yourself into. Couple that with an almost insane repayment process - my loan was sold and repackaged so many times, I had no clue who actually owned it anymore as every 6 months or so a new payment booklet would appear with a different name on it. At one point, the booklets stopped coming and after nearly a year of fruitless hunting (bank was long gone, state agency kept referring me to the university who referred me back to the state), I gave up and actually asked a friend who worked in collections to hunt it down (it took him 8 months). The author's attitude and justifications are unacceptable - you made a promise to repay and sorry your life isn't all wine and roses you are still obligated especially since that money comes from your fellow tax payers. The entire student loan process needs a total overhaul but the most important thing it needs to begin with making sure that that 18 year old fully understands what they're getting themselves into along with the ramifications in terms they will understand.
6
I'm afraid the result of this proposal will not be a fairy tale where everyone can go to college and study ancient Nepalese art for free. Instead, it will be a place where the elite universities provide almost exclusively STEM and business degrees, since these are what enable students to pay back their debts, and the vast majority of the middle class are denied access to college as funding dries up due to the inability of financiers to recoup their money.
I decided to take a different path. I went to a state school with dirt cheap tuition, studied business and math to prepare myself for a good job after college, and now have plenty of disposable income to spend on my life-long love of music, art, and literature. Contrary to the author's claim, this has not lead to a life of self-disgust and lifelong unhappiness. I found a way to fulfill society's goals as well as my own. Unfortunately, the author seems to care about only one of these.
I decided to take a different path. I went to a state school with dirt cheap tuition, studied business and math to prepare myself for a good job after college, and now have plenty of disposable income to spend on my life-long love of music, art, and literature. Contrary to the author's claim, this has not lead to a life of self-disgust and lifelong unhappiness. I found a way to fulfill society's goals as well as my own. Unfortunately, the author seems to care about only one of these.
12
There are no dirt cheap public institutions anymore. The died with the advent of Reaganism.
Five books and counting. I'm wondering at what point the author might think his degrees did enough for him that he might be willing to actually pay for them.
19
Who do you think pays the price for your "moral" standing? I agree that the system is broken. I believe college should be free for everyone who has the grades to get in. I do not agree with your selfish way of taking a stand. You are taking funds away from everyone else; other students, taxpayers who follow the rules because it's the right things to do in a civilized society. This is not the way to affect change. I will finish paying my loans 6 months before retirement and I GLADLY pay them for the opportunities it gave me. If you've chosen opportunities that don't pay as well, that isn't the government, the bank, or new students fault so suck it up buttercup. You signed for it, you pay it.
15
"Instead of guaranteeing loans, the government would have to guarantee a college education. "
Very relevant article- is an educated, skilled, competitive, content populace important to the USA? Charging impossible fees to go to college/uni is not the way to get there, it is becoming a club for the rich, so many left on the sidelines... Look at the Europeans- they are abolishing tuition and have taken steps to invite all interested to rise higher, smarter, more knowledgeable, more skilled, more motivated, more committed. A Americans we are not used to being the loser, but let's face it, there is so much that needs to be fixed in this great country. The US education system is broken in so many respects, even the experts don't know where to begin!
Very relevant article- is an educated, skilled, competitive, content populace important to the USA? Charging impossible fees to go to college/uni is not the way to get there, it is becoming a club for the rich, so many left on the sidelines... Look at the Europeans- they are abolishing tuition and have taken steps to invite all interested to rise higher, smarter, more knowledgeable, more skilled, more motivated, more committed. A Americans we are not used to being the loser, but let's face it, there is so much that needs to be fixed in this great country. The US education system is broken in so many respects, even the experts don't know where to begin!
20
There are many, many former students who need relief from their student debt -- this is documented in many places, by credible sources, including Senator Warren's office -- and they also need advocates, but I would like to respectfully suggest that Mr. Siegel is not going to be one of them. Anti-student and anti-relief advocates -- those who keep bankruptcy relief off the table, for example, while it is available to every other kind of debtor in the US, will now be able to use Mr. Siegel's essay for support.
3
Lee Siegel represents all who experience the insane debt created by college tuition and the near state of slavery it casts.
Lee states, "Instead of guaranteeing loans, the government would have to guarantee a college education." I agree and would like tax revenue funneled away from our bloated defense budget for pumping billions more into funding education. Even doubling the current $70 B Education budget would barely make a dent in the enormous $599B Defense budget.
Cmon, throw the dog a bone.
Lee states, "Instead of guaranteeing loans, the government would have to guarantee a college education." I agree and would like tax revenue funneled away from our bloated defense budget for pumping billions more into funding education. Even doubling the current $70 B Education budget would barely make a dent in the enormous $599B Defense budget.
Cmon, throw the dog a bone.
16
How ironic you complain about paying into a funding system that was successful in providing you with an education. You made the choice of colleges or degrees those funds were used for, yet you blame the government and system for the resulting career that cant support your debt. You are no different than Greece or any other deadbeat borrower who fails to pay after enjoying the benefits of borrowing.
6
I never understood why people feel they need to go to college for a liberal arts degree. If you want to be a painter, paint. If you want to write, write.
Regardless, you chose to go to a liberal arts school and get a degree that frankly isn't the strongest for learning marketable skills. Furthermore, you chose to fund that education with student loans. When it's time to actually be a responsible person and pay your debt, you opt out and have the US government pay for you (I'm thinking you have federal loans since you mention the DoE.) It's pretty sickening to me that you're suggesting that people just not pay for their obligations.
Regardless, you chose to go to a liberal arts school and get a degree that frankly isn't the strongest for learning marketable skills. Furthermore, you chose to fund that education with student loans. When it's time to actually be a responsible person and pay your debt, you opt out and have the US government pay for you (I'm thinking you have federal loans since you mention the DoE.) It's pretty sickening to me that you're suggesting that people just not pay for their obligations.
6
After more than 6 hours, there are only 2 comments to this piece? Probably because so many people are just plain speechless. Society does not owe Mr. Siegel - or anyone - a college education. And if you "take" one, you pay for it. Go to a fancy restaurant in New York, eat a fabulously expensive meal, then try to walk out because you believe the prices were too high.
Many of us worked while in college. My undergrad degree took 8 years, my master's degree another 7. I worked difficult but interesting jobs in medicine and IT, and, oh, by the way, managed to become a published writer in the meantime. I still have a soul, not to mention self-respect.
Many of us worked while in college. My undergrad degree took 8 years, my master's degree another 7. I worked difficult but interesting jobs in medicine and IT, and, oh, by the way, managed to become a published writer in the meantime. I still have a soul, not to mention self-respect.
18
If you are proud of not living up to your financial responsibilities, be happy, but keep quiet! Never needed a credit rating?
1
Did you think through how you would pay back the loans before you took them or just fantasize that it would be alright?
1
College costs today are absurdly high, unlike when I started college at a state school 40 years ago, when all four years, room, board, and tuition, cost me about $10,000 total. Not per year: Total. By working summers at a job I hated, and working part-time on campus, I was able to cover most of those costs. The remainder I paid off within a year or two of graduating.
But wait, why are you complaining about today's college costs when explaining why you don't pay your debt? You started college the same time I did. The costs back then were very reasonable.
I thought I was going to read a meaningful article about someone who graduated a few years ago and was hopelessly in debt. Instead I find a 'writer', who stop paying his debt because work was beneath him.
And they say millennials are whiners.
But wait, why are you complaining about today's college costs when explaining why you don't pay your debt? You started college the same time I did. The costs back then were very reasonable.
I thought I was going to read a meaningful article about someone who graduated a few years ago and was hopelessly in debt. Instead I find a 'writer', who stop paying his debt because work was beneath him.
And they say millennials are whiners.
16
Although failure to pay-off his debts neither serves the welfare of a broader society nor of himself, Lee Siegel's salient points shouldn't be ignored.
With an effective tax rate below 15% for oligarchs and well above 20% for most middle class taxpayers, combined with the political abandonment of public higher education, all but the financially elite are reduced to trade schools for their higher education, if they are plucky and lucky.
Like so many of his GOP counterparts, proudly parades his ignorance by his effort to gut one of the best public university systems in the country. This won't hurt the fat cats but it devastates not only everyone else but also the intellectual fiber of Wisconsin.
(See http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/05/us/politics/unions-subdued-scott-walke....
As for the truly indigent, if they can find any work at all, pumping gas and flipping burgers beckons them forever on their one-rung mobility ladders. This is what we call "The Land of Opportunity."
Lee, honor the obligations you voluntarily assumed, no matter how much it grates. The fact that our political class wouldn't ever voluntarily cover their own debts hardly justifies your refusal to do so. We're all paying for your recalcitrance.
With an effective tax rate below 15% for oligarchs and well above 20% for most middle class taxpayers, combined with the political abandonment of public higher education, all but the financially elite are reduced to trade schools for their higher education, if they are plucky and lucky.
Like so many of his GOP counterparts, proudly parades his ignorance by his effort to gut one of the best public university systems in the country. This won't hurt the fat cats but it devastates not only everyone else but also the intellectual fiber of Wisconsin.
(See http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/05/us/politics/unions-subdued-scott-walke....
As for the truly indigent, if they can find any work at all, pumping gas and flipping burgers beckons them forever on their one-rung mobility ladders. This is what we call "The Land of Opportunity."
Lee, honor the obligations you voluntarily assumed, no matter how much it grates. The fact that our political class wouldn't ever voluntarily cover their own debts hardly justifies your refusal to do so. We're all paying for your recalcitrance.
2
There are significant problems with the student loan and higher education industry - sham private colleges and trade schools, higher education and tuition costs that have exceeded inflation year after year largely made possible by the large influx of federal funds in the form of loans, etc.
While Lee Siegel is an excellent writer, I so wish the NYT would have chosen a different columnist to address these issues. Student loan debt is crushing, but the advice offered on how to deal with it is naive and can haunt someone for decades. There are government programs, like tiered payments and loan forgiveness for community service, that do help, although not enough. And not for all.
Unfortunately, Siegel, for better or worse, comes off an elitist snob advocating default as a way to shake a fist at "the man" under the guise of pursuing a purer life. Please! There are better ways to rebel, and contribute to society and own's self than those being advocated here.
While Lee Siegel is an excellent writer, I so wish the NYT would have chosen a different columnist to address these issues. Student loan debt is crushing, but the advice offered on how to deal with it is naive and can haunt someone for decades. There are government programs, like tiered payments and loan forgiveness for community service, that do help, although not enough. And not for all.
Unfortunately, Siegel, for better or worse, comes off an elitist snob advocating default as a way to shake a fist at "the man" under the guise of pursuing a purer life. Please! There are better ways to rebel, and contribute to society and own's self than those being advocated here.
7
There are two other alternatives: (1) For federal loans (not private loans), you can check your eligibility for Income-Based Repayment; or (2) move to another country, because the D.o.E. and its credit collection agencies have no power abroad. Either way, the schools and banks are made whole, while the U.S taxpayers remain on the hook.
3
College is supposed to be an investment in the American capital world - meaning when you invest your young years in getting an education, you are intended to be rewarded with a profitable career. Even after the collapse we were told to get more education so we could be more productive to society. Instead, we got Glorified Debt. Let's call it that, Glorified Debt. That Glorified Debt is no longer an investment in society. It is Bad Debt. American corporations write off bad debt. Obama allowed the write-off of bad debt for GM and many other biggies. It seems only logical - and right - for the Dept. of Education to write off the Glorified Debt, aka, Bad Debt of student loans that will not be repaid. It is unlikely someone in his/her 50's will be able to repay Glorified Debt. It is unlikely someone making $15,000 a year will be able to repay Glorified Debt. The Dept. of Education is throwing good money after bad money on this game. Another solution would be to make student loans with one percent interest and use a payment incentive plan (meaning for every on-time payment of $100, another $15.00 is taken off the debt.
10
Bravo, Lee Siegel, an intelligent, morally scrupulous, and altogether wonderful writer who calls attention to the madness of American college funding, which demands those who need it most sacrifice, in all too many cases, what's best about them. By that, to be sure, I mean what's best for the country, for society at large, not just for their own interests. Reform the college funding system now!
11
The fact that people do what you did, is exactly part of the reason student loans are so expensive to begin with. Shame on you, your benefit was at others expense.
People do have the opportunity to say 'enough'.....by not accepting student loans in the first place. Nobody puts a gun to your head and says you have to take them. There are many other options; don't attend, work to save up then attend later, or attend a less expensive institution.
Having access to the best school in the best place at no cost just because you want it, is not your right.
When I sought out higher education, I worked summers to contain costs, went to local university, and also took some loans (paid back within a few years). You explanation is nothing more than a grotesque attempt at moralizing your selfish choices.
People do have the opportunity to say 'enough'.....by not accepting student loans in the first place. Nobody puts a gun to your head and says you have to take them. There are many other options; don't attend, work to save up then attend later, or attend a less expensive institution.
Having access to the best school in the best place at no cost just because you want it, is not your right.
When I sought out higher education, I worked summers to contain costs, went to local university, and also took some loans (paid back within a few years). You explanation is nothing more than a grotesque attempt at moralizing your selfish choices.
7
"I could give up what had become my vocation (in my case, being a writer) and take a job that I didn’t want in order to repay the huge debt I had accumulated in college and graduate school. Or I could take what I had been led to believe was both the morally and legally reprehensible step of defaulting on my student loans, which was the only way I could survive without wasting my life in a job that had nothing to do with my particular usefulness to society."
so let me understand. You have chosen, with a taxpayer backed loan, to obtain a bachelors degree. Then you decide, voluntarily, to pursue a career that pays practically nothing. This insures you cannot pay the loans back or, for that matter, to even make a living. Then you blame "vultures"? As a taxpayer I blame you instead.
so let me understand. You have chosen, with a taxpayer backed loan, to obtain a bachelors degree. Then you decide, voluntarily, to pursue a career that pays practically nothing. This insures you cannot pay the loans back or, for that matter, to even make a living. Then you blame "vultures"? As a taxpayer I blame you instead.
16
Sadly as a cosigner to a girlfriend's student loans (yes I'm an idiot) twenty yer ago I am still on the line for her loan... And I am the one paying for years as she has been unable to... And by having my checks the agency does not accept releasing me from the loan as I'm the only one paying now, even though I've not seen her in a decade!!
I can understand the idea of defaulting but in my case doing so, for a loan that was not to benefit me, is absurd. I rather pay and get the consequences away from me. Sadly it also makes my ex not deal with the reality of her no paying. She benefits from my desire to not have my credit damaged. All in all it a ridiculous system.
How can a loan taken out 20 years ago for studying STILL not be paid!!!? Our system is broken for sure.
I can understand the idea of defaulting but in my case doing so, for a loan that was not to benefit me, is absurd. I rather pay and get the consequences away from me. Sadly it also makes my ex not deal with the reality of her no paying. She benefits from my desire to not have my credit damaged. All in all it a ridiculous system.
How can a loan taken out 20 years ago for studying STILL not be paid!!!? Our system is broken for sure.
1
Yeah dude, don't let your bad decisions cost you anything!!! Typical of a certain segment of society.
11
I agree the writer does sound a bit selfish. I didn't get any help from my parents and earned a degree in mechanical engineering and have always paid my student loans on time.
However, the bigger point to me is that the value to cost ratio of a college education isn't very fair to the student. The problem is that especially for liberal arts degrees, the banks giving the loan are being backed to do so. In a normal credit situation, the risk would be way too high. And it's because students can get loans like this that educational institutions can charge way too much for the value of what they are proving.
She's being as self serving as many of the educational institutions, but they aren't being shamed.
However, the bigger point to me is that the value to cost ratio of a college education isn't very fair to the student. The problem is that especially for liberal arts degrees, the banks giving the loan are being backed to do so. In a normal credit situation, the risk would be way too high. And it's because students can get loans like this that educational institutions can charge way too much for the value of what they are proving.
She's being as self serving as many of the educational institutions, but they aren't being shamed.
3
I tend to sympathize with Siegel, but I wonder: has he made money with those five books he wrote? Enough to pay his debt?
4
What a hoot. And a memoir about money in the works. That's gotta be a great read. Borrow what you want from the system, default, and blame that nasty system.
14
Elegant prose to justify freeloading on the rest of us. He probably didn't vaccinate his children either.
14
This country was founded on the concepts of indentured servitude and slavery. In the colonial days, there were white slaves and some blacks who also owned slaves. Once the concept became racially codified, the poor whites were assigned the job of fighting for the rights of the slaveholders. Today, private, for-profit prisons are making a living off the poor unfortunates who run afoul of our many, many, many laws and those who foolishly cross our borders looking for "opportunity." With the aging of our prison population, for-profit prison operators are free to abandon their contracts at any time in search for a younger, less costly demographic. I think the next move of the Republican Party will be to create for-profit debtors' prisons for young people who foolishly took the bait of student loan debt. The inmates will generally be young and healthy, requiring less medical care and can be forced to do penance through free labor for wealthy plutocrats. In the process, they can be indoctrinated into a belief system that will always leave them in a subservient role! It's a Win-Win!
2
How I wish this were satire and how I dread thinking that it probably isn't.
Shirking responsibilities is the mantra of the liberalProgressiveDemocrats. Don't like a decision you made? Blame: Your parents, banks (a popular one), schools, friends, whatever, do not under any circumstances accept your decisions, shirk, blow off, Blame, ignore... But never accept what you've done. The Keft has done this and yes it is the ruin of our country. Enjoy decline.
Http://www.periodictablet.com
Http://www.periodictablet.com
5
I have substantial sympathy for Mr. Siegel. Education should be provided by the state. Mine was.
2
Very interesting article. Is a college education an entitlement that government (eg everyone) should pay for, regardless of the cost of the institution or the earning power (apparently a matter of personal choice)? Should one choose one's vocation based on educational choices (and expenditures and debt), or should one choose the educational institution with an eye to one's future vocation? If you follow the author's logic then college graduates shouldn't be barristas. Regardless, there should be a cap on the maximum cumulative amount of interest and fees that can be added to a student loan. Without a cap then default does become the rational (and just) choice.
3
everyone's fault but my own. others with greater sins are not punished. perhaps there should be a universal tax so college would be free. Well there are no free rides. Someone pays. That trillion in debt will be whittled down by people who follow the course recommended here. Perhaps the cost of education will come down, certainly the universities like those in the health professions have long been on the edge of total unaffordability.
Still more want education and need to get it. How will they pay and/or who is supposed to be the ultimate sugar daddy???
Still more want education and need to get it. How will they pay and/or who is supposed to be the ultimate sugar daddy???
2
So he says "It struck me as absurd that one could amass crippling debt as a result, not of ...... reckless borrowing and spending," That is how all crippling debt is amassed. People making stupid decisions and then continuing to make stupid decisions even though the know their decisions are stupid. This is exactly why this country will go belly up. The penchant for so many of the voters to want to have their cake and eat it too has been playing out in the public sector for over 50 years and now has been playing out in the private sector for a number of years. You cannot make poor financial decisions miraculously dematerialize. They always represent someone else's money.
4
Not disagreeing but want to point out that many people get crippling debt due to chronic or catastrophic health problems...
1
I was having a conversation with a wealthy friend post 2008 about sub-prime mortgages and the mounting foreclosure problem, and the closest thing I could get to sympathy for the millions who were losing their homes was a comment about how he felt sorry for those who didn't know what they were getting into when they signed the mortgage papers. That stunned me a little, because I thought the facts about predatory lending and the behavior of the big Banks was such that a more fair treatment of the victims was needed.
But the moral of that story for me was that it is improbable that anyone will help you out when you're down the tubes economically in this country, or if you overextend and make a mistake because you have a belief in what you want to do as an adult. Sadly, it's much more likely that if you don't have a wealthy family member willing to help, you're in for a long road, as Mr. Siegel has found out.
Sometimes people in this country who have made mistakes are vilified for choosing to default on a loan or foreclose on a house. The facts are that in the aftermath of 2008, it wasn't that hard for things to go wrong for millions of people. The government didn't do enough to help, and the banks weren't honest either. Even now they aren't honest, as evidenced with the currency manipulations practiced. Those are the indisputable facts.
This country needs politics that treat the young, talented people as our future, not baristas, Vote for whomever favors that.
But the moral of that story for me was that it is improbable that anyone will help you out when you're down the tubes economically in this country, or if you overextend and make a mistake because you have a belief in what you want to do as an adult. Sadly, it's much more likely that if you don't have a wealthy family member willing to help, you're in for a long road, as Mr. Siegel has found out.
Sometimes people in this country who have made mistakes are vilified for choosing to default on a loan or foreclose on a house. The facts are that in the aftermath of 2008, it wasn't that hard for things to go wrong for millions of people. The government didn't do enough to help, and the banks weren't honest either. Even now they aren't honest, as evidenced with the currency manipulations practiced. Those are the indisputable facts.
This country needs politics that treat the young, talented people as our future, not baristas, Vote for whomever favors that.
10
"Maybe the problem was that I had reached beyond my lower-middle-class origins and taken out loans to attend a small private college to begin with. "
Exactly! You should have gone to a community college for two years and a state school after that. You would've had a good education and no debt! Going to a private expensive school is not the only way.
Exactly! You should have gone to a community college for two years and a state school after that. You would've had a good education and no debt! Going to a private expensive school is not the only way.
15
Time for this revolution - perhaps it will be televised.
2
I guess I gave in and "crushed my dreams" and worked construction, so I could help people like the author satisfy his dreams.
Ya know - many people get jobs that pay the bills, and then WRITE on the side, or later in life to satisfy themselves.
Ya know - many people get jobs that pay the bills, and then WRITE on the side, or later in life to satisfy themselves.
7
Thanks for the tip Lee! I think I'll just go and post your books on the internet - this way I can help people acquire knowledge for free, just like you. Hope you and your publishers don't mind the inconvenience.
32
Was the debt mainly from the private college or from the affordable State university? The article does not explain.
Dude, you need to work out an honorable restructuring of your loans after an honest appraisal of your debt with a decent financial counselor. Default is fraud. Your education is priceless, but it has been costly. As a society we will certainly benefit from your education, but we should not be saddled with its full expense. You are deluding yourself. Repaying a school loan with modest monthly payments is taking responsibility for your life and showing maturity.
5
More people need to follow Mr. Siegel's example. Student loans should be able to be discharged in bankruptcy the way they were before that nation-destroying monster Ronald Reagan came along and started the U.S.'s race to the bottom.
8
He's writing a memoir about money? A delightful irony.
What's next, NYT--a Manual on how to cheat the system and live irresponsibly?
What's next, NYT--a Manual on how to cheat the system and live irresponsibly?
7
He borrowed the money. When one borrows money, whether from a bank risking the money of its depositors, or from a little old lady or a pensioner, you should repay the money you borrowed. Capital cannot be formed or invested if people do not pay their debts.
Except for Mr. Siegel, who apparently, believes he is special, and the proceeds from his five books should not go to repay his debt. He is entitled to whatever he wants -- a free college education, not to have to work in a dreary job selling shoes -- unlike the rest of us, who will always be forced to do things we don't want to do to keep paying taxes so Mr. Siegel can live his selfish life.
Except for Mr. Siegel, who apparently, believes he is special, and the proceeds from his five books should not go to repay his debt. He is entitled to whatever he wants -- a free college education, not to have to work in a dreary job selling shoes -- unlike the rest of us, who will always be forced to do things we don't want to do to keep paying taxes so Mr. Siegel can live his selfish life.
18
The 0.1% get to discharge their debts in bankruptcy while keeping the assets they have carefully sequestered. You can check with Donald Trump about how that works. Not so the poor student.
No need finishing the 'memoir on money'. I think we've got the picture. Paying ones debts is not for self-important types like Siegel.
3
A few years before he was elected President of the United States, Ohio's William Mc Kinley declared bankruptcy. He was a conservative with lots of wealthy friends, so the action did not prevent his being elected by a landslide in 1896. Somehow, it is okay for the rich not to pay their bills.
For middle class and poor people to abandon their debts, however, is considered reprehensible.
You should not need a degree in political economy to see that capitalists have written their values into the legal system, and the vast majority of people of modest means have pledged allegiance to an economic system that is stacked against them.
Running out on your education bills will not bring down the capitalist system, but it does strike a symbolic blow. Please remember that we had a draft in this country until lots of people started refusing to serve.
A people's revolution does not require guns; it does not require violence. But it does require the public to drop the values that further enrich the .01%
The class struggle is real; it is with us every day. But only when the poor fight back do people get upset. We do not need a Great Emancipator. But we do need a great number of people to emancipate themselves and further expose an economic system shot through with inequities.
Until then, Lee Siegel will be considered a parasite while the big, defaulting banks will be considered respected pillars of the community.
For middle class and poor people to abandon their debts, however, is considered reprehensible.
You should not need a degree in political economy to see that capitalists have written their values into the legal system, and the vast majority of people of modest means have pledged allegiance to an economic system that is stacked against them.
Running out on your education bills will not bring down the capitalist system, but it does strike a symbolic blow. Please remember that we had a draft in this country until lots of people started refusing to serve.
A people's revolution does not require guns; it does not require violence. But it does require the public to drop the values that further enrich the .01%
The class struggle is real; it is with us every day. But only when the poor fight back do people get upset. We do not need a Great Emancipator. But we do need a great number of people to emancipate themselves and further expose an economic system shot through with inequities.
Until then, Lee Siegel will be considered a parasite while the big, defaulting banks will be considered respected pillars of the community.
This woman's irresponsibility, sense of entitlement, and brazen disregard for ethics made actually made me feel a little ill. It shows that depravity is not constrained to the most recent generation of college students.
7
>
Indebted students unite!!! You have nothing to lose but your debt.
Indebted students unite!!! You have nothing to lose but your debt.
3
"If people groaning under the weight of student loans simply said, 'Enough,' then all the pieties about debt that have become absorbed into all the pieties about higher education might be brought into alignment with reality."
Let's take this a step further. Let's apply this suggestion not just to student loans, but to everything else. Stop paying your car payments. If we all did it, the repo men couldn't do much about it, as they'd never be able to keep up with all the re-possesions. Stop paying your mortgage for you house, Same thing: If done by enough people there's not much the banks could do about it. Stop paying to ride the bus or the train. Public transit should be free. That will get people out of their cars and it's hard to believe that anything else will even though we're already strangling on car pollution and we all know it. In fact, let's stop cooperating with all of the madness that's supporting incessant wars, environmental destruction, and the whole lot of it that we all know amounts to utter suicidal disaster. If we stop playing along with it there's not much the politicians, the police, the bankers, and all the kings horses and all the kings men can do about putting it back together again.
Let's take this a step further. Let's apply this suggestion not just to student loans, but to everything else. Stop paying your car payments. If we all did it, the repo men couldn't do much about it, as they'd never be able to keep up with all the re-possesions. Stop paying your mortgage for you house, Same thing: If done by enough people there's not much the banks could do about it. Stop paying to ride the bus or the train. Public transit should be free. That will get people out of their cars and it's hard to believe that anything else will even though we're already strangling on car pollution and we all know it. In fact, let's stop cooperating with all of the madness that's supporting incessant wars, environmental destruction, and the whole lot of it that we all know amounts to utter suicidal disaster. If we stop playing along with it there's not much the politicians, the police, the bankers, and all the kings horses and all the kings men can do about putting it back together again.
2
What is truly sad about your post, Che, is that many probably think this is a great idea.
The bottom line is that you are responsible for your own situation. If you are robbed by someone who takes your property by force, then you are a victim. If you were given papers to read before signing and chose either not to read them or signed them even though you did not understand them, then that's too bad. If you took on loans for anything (house, car, student loans) and had little to no means when you signed, you took a gamble that it would all work out later. That it did not is called poor planning, not victimhood.
It's all about "I just feel like this costs too much so I shouldn't have to pay for it, but I should get to keep it" or "This isn't working out the way I want it to so I just feel like it should be changed to accommodate my wants." It's astonishing.
The bottom line is that you are responsible for your own situation. If you are robbed by someone who takes your property by force, then you are a victim. If you were given papers to read before signing and chose either not to read them or signed them even though you did not understand them, then that's too bad. If you took on loans for anything (house, car, student loans) and had little to no means when you signed, you took a gamble that it would all work out later. That it did not is called poor planning, not victimhood.
It's all about "I just feel like this costs too much so I shouldn't have to pay for it, but I should get to keep it" or "This isn't working out the way I want it to so I just feel like it should be changed to accommodate my wants." It's astonishing.
Um, YES!!! This is spot on. I didn't graduate with student loans; instead, I graduated at 22 with no job and eight credit cards. I had no idea what would be required of me to repay all the debt I had amassed in college, but the credit companies who gave a student card after card after card CERTAINLY knew that I would not be in great standing to pay for anything for quite awhile. In fact, I am pretty sure that that's exactly how these companies make their money--just like tobacco companies, banks know that, if they can get you while you're young, they've got you FOR LIFE. After years of jumping through hoop after hoop, reading books about paying off debt and coming oh-so-close to having no balance, I slipped up and missed some payments while working overseas, and saw my interest rate rise to 33%. I decided to throw in the towel and stop playing by bank rules. I let all of my balances go into collection, and settled the balance about a year later. It's been about 4 years, and I have no regrets. I have one credit card with a low limit, which means I can't charge much, but I also can't owe much, either. While many readers will surely disagree, debt is a form of voluntary slavery, and I prefer my freedom to my "stuff." It's too bad that an education in this country is considered "stuff," but so it will remain until more people choose the path that you have.
11
Lots of people take jobs they don't like in order to earn money to repay debts. That's part of being a responsible adult.
Perhaps you never grew up.
Perhaps you never grew up.
23
You're probably part of a large hidden iceberg. The situation is absurd and many other students must be walking away from it. The brokers for these loans have long been the real financial beneficiaries of these programs. When they make their cost-benefit analysis, which is what you did, they don't get morally judged.
6
So a person decided to take out loans to go to an expensive school and when unfortunate circumstances hit, decided that having to do undesirable work in order to pay back one's debt was not what they "wanted" so they simply walked away. Sounds similar to the people who faced a job loss and decided that even so, they should be able to keep their house for free or get a deep discount rather than pay what they agreed. Or, those who saw the value of their home drop and felt entitled to get the price they agreed to pay lowered.
How sad. What will be even sadder are the posts that agree with what this person did because college is just "so expensive now." There are options to obtain higher education. That one chooses not to avail themselves of those options because they are not brag-worthy or whatever is on them.
What I don't understand is the writer's belief that attending a college that stayed within their "working class" roots was just a terrible insult and they deserved the expensive, private college. That's like saying how dare you say I should drive a Honda when I wanna Jaguar. If you want the more expensive option, then pay for it.
How sad. What will be even sadder are the posts that agree with what this person did because college is just "so expensive now." There are options to obtain higher education. That one chooses not to avail themselves of those options because they are not brag-worthy or whatever is on them.
What I don't understand is the writer's belief that attending a college that stayed within their "working class" roots was just a terrible insult and they deserved the expensive, private college. That's like saying how dare you say I should drive a Honda when I wanna Jaguar. If you want the more expensive option, then pay for it.
9
20/20 hindsight.
Let's see what the indebted generation says about their choices 30 years out.
I certainly hope they have the courage to change the system that enslaved them.
Let's see what the indebted generation says about their choices 30 years out.
I certainly hope they have the courage to change the system that enslaved them.
Too many young people do not fully understand the responsibility that they're taking on where they get a student loan. This isn't like a car or home loan, where there is tangible property to secure the loan, and if you don't pay then the collateral can be repossessed and the loan discharged. It's not like conventional unsecured debt, like a credit card, where it can be discharged in bankruptcy, if necessary.
There are only a handful of situations where that student loan can be discharged without paying it off. Dropping out of college is not one of them. Only rarely can a student loan be discharged in a bankruptcy. You should have laid out a plan for your life, you should have included the repayment of that loan into your plan, and you should be 100% committed to carrying through with that plan, come hell or high water. If you're the least bit wishy washy about what you're going to do with your life, or aren't absolutely committed to repaying that loan and know with certainty how you're going to do it, then don't borrow the money.
Don't blame the people who loaned you the money, nor the collection agencies that are trying to recover it. Nobody put a gun to your head and made you sign the loan agreement.
There are only a handful of situations where that student loan can be discharged without paying it off. Dropping out of college is not one of them. Only rarely can a student loan be discharged in a bankruptcy. You should have laid out a plan for your life, you should have included the repayment of that loan into your plan, and you should be 100% committed to carrying through with that plan, come hell or high water. If you're the least bit wishy washy about what you're going to do with your life, or aren't absolutely committed to repaying that loan and know with certainty how you're going to do it, then don't borrow the money.
Don't blame the people who loaned you the money, nor the collection agencies that are trying to recover it. Nobody put a gun to your head and made you sign the loan agreement.
6
While the author chides and shames those with means, citing nepotism and entitlement, he is guilty of something very similar. Lee chose to pursue a degree in a field with little monetary return and expected his parents/the government to shoulder the economic burden that comes with such. What makes Lee so special? There are millions of people from all backgrounds that work to survive and pay their debts, including student loans; they also make time for things they love, such as writing. If Lee truly loved writing so much, he would find a way to do so without compromising his moral obligation to pay back money that he voluntarily borrowed. Yes, tuition rates are absurd and our educational loan system is broken, but that does not absolve people from their responsibilities. Maybe Lee should take his own advice and realize that he is not above reproach when his sense of entitlement and self-importance breed moral and character problems in the form of a lack of accountability.
13
This brings up another point. If a corporation borrowed 100K to invest (let's say in new machines, buildings, etc.) they are then allowed to have certain tax-deductions from their income over the next n years. Individuals have no such right. So, if a college education, or a professional carreer such as a going to medical school had a cost of 100K (and more), during the first (and subsequent) years after college, one is taxed on the income of that year and cannot claim tax deductions from huge expenses during years with zero income. The least Congress can do is allow tax deductions for expenses done earlier as an investment in himself or herself (just like the tax code already provides for corporations).
10
It is obscene to pay back, in my case, $106,000 interest on a $14,000 loan. Once you ask for a deferment, the interest compounds daily and one never gets out of the hoe until death. my sympathy and support. It was a difficult decision to go into default. Maybe someday the USDOE will get a heart.
15
Oh - HE's the one, the author of five books who is writing a memoir about money. I'd been wondering who that was. (IOW, edit!)
More important - pretty much everyone who goes to a decent accredited college is getting services that cost more than he or she is paying. Yes, society should be paying for college education, through taxes not loans. But someone has to pay, and there has to be a mechanism for getting them to pay. Loans are one, taxes another. And the problem with taxes and education is kind of well known.
More important - pretty much everyone who goes to a decent accredited college is getting services that cost more than he or she is paying. Yes, society should be paying for college education, through taxes not loans. But someone has to pay, and there has to be a mechanism for getting them to pay. Loans are one, taxes another. And the problem with taxes and education is kind of well known.
1
holy molly the victim mentality is strong with this one, this guy is one of the reasons why our nation has degenerated so much. Where does responsibility and accountability in this article? Nowhere to be found! Oh I forget its always someone else's fault, right how foolish I am...
16
The author seems to have a large sense of entitlement and no sense of responsibility.
22
The table is tilted; the game is rigged. And it's rigged against people without money. During the mortgage meltdown, I thought that if borrowers all got together and simply stopped paying their mortgages en masse, the banks would have to change the terms of the loans. I believe this about student debt, as well. Our system is highly unjust and, almost worse, incredibly stupid. Some sort of revolution is in order.
6
I was lucky and had a love for cars and working on them great carrer for me. My son on the other hand has a love for tech and has a degree in Comp scienc. I could not afford to pay the tuition. My sone did not get any student loans and had to work his way through colleg. It took him an extra two yeas to get that degree. Other friends of his took the path of student loans and patents money and never have recived their degree. The point is if you have to earn it you will respect it. When all these students choose not to pay their debt, the people who did earn it have to pay for it, now is that fair?
6
If you default on your student loans they can take your entire tax return until your paid up, so be careful. They took my $12,000 refund last year.
2
If you had a $12K refund, you should have been able to be making some level of payments on your student loan.
I am willing to entertain that this argument might have some force in terms of the current costs of higher education, but even so, it does not follow that the same argument applies to the costs of education 40 to 30 years ago. Somewhere, some poor or middle class taxpayer helped to pay for the author's education. Surely, the author owes such people some attempt to repay at least some of that debt, unless, of course, if he is bankrupt. And, yes, it is a fault that the author, given his circumstances, did not take advantage of public higher education at the time. Taxpayers have no reason to finance private education, and the government should not have lent the author one dime to get it. Certainly, this much is true, the government has good reasons to charge a greater rate for attending private than public universities.
4
Yes, this guy is a low life and a deadbeat, but I blame the loan agencies more for giving loans to people who major in things that can't possibly make them a living. Yes, one should be obligated to major in pre-med, or finance, or architecture to get a loan from ANYONE, including the gov. Want to major in women's studies or English lit? Do it on your own dime.
2
This is a sincere open-ended question: what were you thinking when you borrowed the money?
4
He wasn't thinking, he was seventeen.
The US private universities are some of the most expensive in the world. The interesting thing is except a few top ones, graduates from other institutes have not much market value. Like the health care system, education is also a sinking hole. As long as loan industry will remain as it is now, there will be chaos everywhere. Oh! And the Americans must stop believing that they have the best of this and that.
2
This article cements it: debtor's prison should be brought back. The nerve of this author to think that a bank that lent its depositors' money--ultimately repaid by innocent taxpayers--is immoral for wanting it back.
10
Why did Lee default on his student loans? Because he could and so he did. And in his mind it's ok because "I chose life". Fortunately, the vast majority of student loan borrowers don't use lame excuses and default on their loans.
8
Your story is valuable to many yet in debt similarly considering expensive educations. They might, forgetaboutit and remain uneducated, ignorant and poor (but not indebted). Maybe move to Wisconsin and think good thoughts about Governor Walker.
1
Being unable to repay a debt (student loan or any other) is one thing, but simply choosing to not repay a debt is unethical and immoral. If a debt repayment obligation can be rationalized away, how much of a stretch is it to rationalize away other issues of trust, like marriage fidelity or plagiarism?
17
So, since you should not be held responsible for the loans, please explain who should pay them off for you?
8
Our financial system and economy will work wonderfully as folks like you renege on the debts you incurred in good faith. My young son has a name for those like yourself, low-quality people.
3
I do think that the government has failed us - by us I mean Generation Y (millennials). Our whole lives we have been told that in order to make something of ourselves we needed to get a degree. At the time it was true, especially if you come from poverty. If you come from poverty, it's even more true now.
How did they fail us? By guaranteeing student loans to universities that have inflated the cost of education. To make matters worse the government charges very high interest rates, especially if you get a professional degree. There should have never been a student loan program unless the government made it a condition on all universities to keep education costs at a certain level and increase only a certain percent every year. Now universities are oil rich - Professors get paid ridiculous amounts - Presidents of universities get paid as much as CEO's of billion dollar companies.
Now, the problem is that we will be more of a burden on the economy. Instead of buying our first house we will be renting until we are 40. Instead of having a family we will be single until our late 30's. Because, unlike the author of this article, most students pay their loans back. If we don't pay government student loans back then the amount of remedies the government has against us is scary. Certainly, in this day and age, you cannot have bad credit, especially if you grew up in poverty. But bad credit is not even the worst when it comes to their remedies. Hopefully they do something soon.
How did they fail us? By guaranteeing student loans to universities that have inflated the cost of education. To make matters worse the government charges very high interest rates, especially if you get a professional degree. There should have never been a student loan program unless the government made it a condition on all universities to keep education costs at a certain level and increase only a certain percent every year. Now universities are oil rich - Professors get paid ridiculous amounts - Presidents of universities get paid as much as CEO's of billion dollar companies.
Now, the problem is that we will be more of a burden on the economy. Instead of buying our first house we will be renting until we are 40. Instead of having a family we will be single until our late 30's. Because, unlike the author of this article, most students pay their loans back. If we don't pay government student loans back then the amount of remedies the government has against us is scary. Certainly, in this day and age, you cannot have bad credit, especially if you grew up in poverty. But bad credit is not even the worst when it comes to their remedies. Hopefully they do something soon.
570
Well said, but one fact you cite is a common misconception: outside the three big professions, the inflation adjusted wages of professors have been close to flat for decades. Professors themselves seem to think their paid more, but statistically it doesn't bear out. Part of it may be that they do now make a lot compared to their adjunct faculty brethren who are increasingly numerous and visible. I can't find the numbers at the moment, but I think even law and medicine were modest in their wage increases. Business is the outlier and even it lags administration. Most data is limited to public institutions where professors salary is a matter of public record. But private institutions can be inferred to some degree by examining competitive hiring practices.
4
"Professors get paid ridiculous amounts" - just a note, around 40% of undergraduate professors across the country are now adjuncts, meaning temporary workers without a salary and benefits like healthcare. The average salary for an adjunct nationally is around $25,000 and this usually means teaching about 3 - 4 courses a semester. Class pay is on average about $2700. While some adjuncts are professionals teaching for fun at night, this is not the norm. Many have PhDs.
see Lydia dePillis for Wash Post Feb 6 or NYT room for debate on "when teaching comes cheap".
Even tenured professors have had wage stagnation since the late 1970’s. For state schools you can search salaries; you may be surprised to find that assistant professors on the tenure track often make around $50,000 - $60,000 in the humanities or social sciences and this is a good living but it's not oil rich. In law schools or business schools for JD or MBA they do make more.
see Lydia dePillis for Wash Post Feb 6 or NYT room for debate on "when teaching comes cheap".
Even tenured professors have had wage stagnation since the late 1970’s. For state schools you can search salaries; you may be surprised to find that assistant professors on the tenure track often make around $50,000 - $60,000 in the humanities or social sciences and this is a good living but it's not oil rich. In law schools or business schools for JD or MBA they do make more.
6
"Now universities are oil rich - Professors get paid ridiculous amounts." No statement in your post could possibly better demonstrate your ignorance of the economics of higher education.
9
There is no way that 17 - 19 year olds can fully understand the implications of borrowing several hundred thousand dollars to pay for college. It is ludicrous for banks to lend this much money to kids that ordinarily wouldn't qualify for a use car load let alone the equivalent of a home mortgage. It is socially immortal to burden a generation of students with crushing debt or the sigma of bad credit. There has to be a better way to help students fund higher education.
3
While you tell us "There is no way that 17 - 19 year olds can fully understand the implications of borrowing several hundred thousand dollars to pay for college.", a second group of 17 - 19 year olds is capable of making the decision of volunteering to serve in harm's way in the U.S. Armed Forces (fully aware that they may be subject to grievous injuries and death). Perhaps the first group is not capable of learning anything in a college program as well.
We've chosen to ignore the coming tsunami of student debt problems for some time. And still, the awful truth from within academia is that enticing ever more students to sign up or continue to enroll, loan balances (and job prospects) be damned, is the name of the game. An endless cycle of increasing enrollment is the holy grail of every state university, and student loans are the ticket for most. And this doesn't even begin to address the predatory "for profit" sector of vocational higher ed.
Thirty years ago the financial aid director at Florida State sat me down to explain why he was recommending denial of my loan (about 1500, a paltry amount by todays standards), his reason being I could probably get by withou tit and the institution didn't want to see its graduates go into the world financially strapped. Probably not many caring conversations like that happening these days.
Thirty years ago the financial aid director at Florida State sat me down to explain why he was recommending denial of my loan (about 1500, a paltry amount by todays standards), his reason being I could probably get by withou tit and the institution didn't want to see its graduates go into the world financially strapped. Probably not many caring conversations like that happening these days.
4
Ahmed Zayat declared bankruptcy three times. Look where he's at now.
If you default on your student loans, the debt collectors can garnish a certain percentage of your wages and collect in other disruptive ways. It is much easier now for the government to find a defaulter then back before most loans were made by the government instead of just guaranteed by an governmental agency.
The author is preaching a life of "living off the grid" and that is fine, "going underground" and escaping debts is as old as the first credit granted.
What confuses me is why the author is so self righteous about skipping out on his loans, as if somehow he is taking the moral high ground. The author's sense of entitlement and grandiosity truly amuses me. No one owes him a career as a writer, or a debt free life, and after reading his pompous article, I do not agree with the author's inflated self assessment that making him change majors would have deprived society of art, truth and enlightenment.
The author is preaching a life of "living off the grid" and that is fine, "going underground" and escaping debts is as old as the first credit granted.
What confuses me is why the author is so self righteous about skipping out on his loans, as if somehow he is taking the moral high ground. The author's sense of entitlement and grandiosity truly amuses me. No one owes him a career as a writer, or a debt free life, and after reading his pompous article, I do not agree with the author's inflated self assessment that making him change majors would have deprived society of art, truth and enlightenment.
10
In my case, I struggled my way through Junior College by working and using my GI Bill. That got me through the first two years debt free. My academic performance garnered me a full academic scholarship to a private college for my Junior year, majoring in Electrical Engineering. But the scholarship only lasted one year and I felt like they had baited me in with it. So I needed student loans to get though the rest. Unfortunately during spring break of my senior year I got into a traumatic auto accident that took nearly a year for me to learn to walk again and has left me disabled today. I had to drop out of school and never graduated. Although my student loans weren't excessive, I still did not earn enough money to pay them back and the government started garnishing my income tax returns forever. That was barely enough to keep the interest from overwhelming me thorough the years. And here I am today at 60 years old and totally disabled, still sitting on a student loan that has more than doubled over the years from the accrued interest charges (and still rising) and no way to pay it off in sight. It's not a matter of choice in my circumstances.
9
Thanks for having us taxpayers pick up the tab for your luxury in life of not working a job to pay back your legitimate debts --
The lingering question in my mind is, just what is your 'particular usefulness to society' besides being a person who breaks contracts at will, without regards to the morality of doing so?
Again, Lee --- thanks for letting We The People Of The United States clean up after you and assume the debts that you chose freely and without coercion.
The lingering question in my mind is, just what is your 'particular usefulness to society' besides being a person who breaks contracts at will, without regards to the morality of doing so?
Again, Lee --- thanks for letting We The People Of The United States clean up after you and assume the debts that you chose freely and without coercion.
15
Bravo. Give it to the Man
2
To an extent, he is correct. Once one owns a home (as long as one doesn't want to upgrade later and take out a mortgage for a much more expensive house) and has an established career with insurance, and buys cars with cash, the idea of having a good credit score can be overrated.
2
When you default on student loans can't they just start taking it out of your paycheck or your bank account? They can't force you to pay more than 15% of your income on student loans and you can always put them in forbearance. I can understand not wanting to worry about them anymore and defaulting for that purpose. Once you default it's basically out of your hands. I don't think the argument made here makes any sense though.
1
Absolutely! Just say no! There's nothing moral or right about student loans - usury is a sin and unjust laws are not laws - Just say no!
3
There is nothing selfish about wanting to be able to be educated without being shackled with debt. Does nothing in our society have intrinsic value? Can people not see that the commodification of all services and rank anti-intellectualism that permeates our political discourse parallels a complete decline in understanding of the liberal arts, literature and classical music is directly connected to these flippant and idiotic ideologies about getting a more "useful" degree? Should everyone just become doctors and police officers, or are we going to wake up and realize that these stupid survival or the fittest capitalist bromides may bode well in Ayn Rand novels, but have precious little to do with reality? Perhaps we should zoom out a bit and ask ourselves which people even go to college in the first place. The beneficiary of an educated populace is supposed to be society at large, not just individuals who must pick a handful of careers whose utility is determined solely by their ability to rake in dough at all costs. But as was the case with the idea of a universal health care plan, most Americans would rather wag their fingers at the "greedy" poor people for not forking over their hard earned cash every month than recognizing that the system is entirely corrupt and divorced from the public interest. Seems to be the standard formula; yell at the people rolling around in the dirt next to you, but pay no mind to the rich crooks who pushed you down there. God bless America.
12
Student debt is going to cause a major financial crisis. It isn't "if" but "when". Lee chose to default to preserve his ability to pursue his love, writing. But defaults will sky rocket whenever we have an economic down turn, from now until we stop this catastrophe. The question is, who is going to suffer the most? Will we institute debtor prison again? Will investors take serious haircuts? Will the taxpayer absorb a vast amount of debt, eventually maybe a trillion dollars? Next to no effort is made to force the student to look at the consequences of their debt before they sign the loans. No HUD like statement required for home mortgages. This is a uniquely American shame.
5
You have free will. You accepted the money. You incurred an obligation. The rest of us should not pay for you.
8
Defaulting on your loans IS morally and legally reprehensible, sir. And if writing risible twaddle like this is what you have been led to believe is your "particular usefulness to society" you have indeed been misled.
20
I feel the overweing burden of my student loans and would love to work out a resonable payment plan. Asking for a payment that is as much as my rent is redicolous. My Loans have been sold to other companies. My loans total are over way over the amount of the original loans or the amount allowed by the government. I have consolidated and it doesn't seem to make a difference. Credit cards charge interest and late fees and harass. The difference is eventually they will offer the balance of what you really owe. When student loans offer similar programs, I think they will have a better chance of repayment. Getting back to what we really took out not a for profit scheme.
Why should you pay back your student loans? How about "because you promised you would." Banks and lenders build into their loans the costs of defaulters. So by refusing to honor your promise, you make things more expensive for those who are trying to do the right thing. If you were deceived by the bank, that's one thing. But the bank did not promise you a fulfilling, lucrative job. It merely said here's some money, you'll need to pay it back. You said you would. Apparently, you lied.
9
Uh, M. Siegel, after you are finished with that Pity-Pot you're sitting on, may I borrow it? One of my favorite activities is whining; I'm the non-literary version of Holden Caulfield.
Oh, and M. Siegel, please remember that what you default on has to be paid back by someone.
Oh, and M. Siegel, please remember that what you default on has to be paid back by someone.
9
This is ridiculous. The delusion and entitlement in this article is frightening. Is this satire? Was this supposed to be published in The Onion??
11
Lets see you opted to go to a private school then transfer to a state school to earn a degree paid for by debt, including your poor parents and yours and now whine you have to pay the debt back and can't.
The government did pay for your education K-12 if you opted to use it and if not then it was available to your family to use, plus public libraries another fine source of education to use. Then you wanted to go to college well not everyone can afford it did you think about this debt and what career you could get with a given degree while you were making plans? College is fine but is not always the best option.
You had a job if your earned an associates in business, worked and focused on saving money you would likely be better off and have a marketable degree with relevant experience, maybe moving up in the company. And if you went to a State school likely could have earned an associates degree t a State community college for under $10k total debt.
This debt is never going away until its paid.
The government did pay for your education K-12 if you opted to use it and if not then it was available to your family to use, plus public libraries another fine source of education to use. Then you wanted to go to college well not everyone can afford it did you think about this debt and what career you could get with a given degree while you were making plans? College is fine but is not always the best option.
You had a job if your earned an associates in business, worked and focused on saving money you would likely be better off and have a marketable degree with relevant experience, maybe moving up in the company. And if you went to a State school likely could have earned an associates degree t a State community college for under $10k total debt.
This debt is never going away until its paid.
1
Wow. If there was ever an article to show how NOT to produce sympathy for the author, this is it. So you chose an unremunerated career, turned down and now sneer at other people's (incl many reader's) everyday jobs as beneath you, and continue somehow with delusion it is the bank's fault they agreed to loan you money you asked and signed for?
And this was decades before the recent spike in tuition raises, fueled in part by flowing govt loans...
Get over yourself.
And this was decades before the recent spike in tuition raises, fueled in part by flowing govt loans...
Get over yourself.
18
"It's not fairrrrrr.... It's not my fauuulllllt.... The mean rich people did it....."
Welcome to Obama's America. Pajama Boy is our future.
Welcome to Obama's America. Pajama Boy is our future.
9
The problem is the history of loaning money to students who pursue majors with little likelihood of gainful employment.
The financial institutions lobbied congress to make student debt non-dischargeable in bankruptcy and then proceeded to loan money to any student for any field of study.
Too many students have been told over the years, "Do what you love and the money will come." Banks loved this kind of wishful thinking because they could make loans to students insured by the federal government, non-dischargeable in bankruptcy and then sit back and think they would eventually get paid by someone, who in many cases turned out to be the U.S. taxpayer.
This is what should have happened: Students should have received federal stipends to attend college, but only to study subjects that would lead to gainful employment. If you wanted to study music history, you paid for it out of your own pocket. If you want to study engineering, the gov would pick up the tab.
And if you didn't have the smarts to study engineering, you could attend community college (paid by gov) and become an electrician, plumber, or air conditioning tech (probably making the most money).
Why didn't our college financing system follow this path? Because big financial institutions wanted a guaranteed source of income and they got it.
The only answer now is to stop the drag on the U.S. economy and forgive the overwhelming student debt while only lending money for students to acquire viable skillsets.
The financial institutions lobbied congress to make student debt non-dischargeable in bankruptcy and then proceeded to loan money to any student for any field of study.
Too many students have been told over the years, "Do what you love and the money will come." Banks loved this kind of wishful thinking because they could make loans to students insured by the federal government, non-dischargeable in bankruptcy and then sit back and think they would eventually get paid by someone, who in many cases turned out to be the U.S. taxpayer.
This is what should have happened: Students should have received federal stipends to attend college, but only to study subjects that would lead to gainful employment. If you wanted to study music history, you paid for it out of your own pocket. If you want to study engineering, the gov would pick up the tab.
And if you didn't have the smarts to study engineering, you could attend community college (paid by gov) and become an electrician, plumber, or air conditioning tech (probably making the most money).
Why didn't our college financing system follow this path? Because big financial institutions wanted a guaranteed source of income and they got it.
The only answer now is to stop the drag on the U.S. economy and forgive the overwhelming student debt while only lending money for students to acquire viable skillsets.
3
How does it make sense to default on a loan, ruin your credit, and then become dependent on usurious interest rates for credit cards or mortgages?
6
It makes no sense - that's the point. The system lards unpaid principal with fees and interest which continue to accrue no matter whether you pay or not. Your debt continues to grow and grow and grow and any payments you make are applied to the fees and interest - which never stop - before being applied to the original debt. It's a hopeless situation.
2
While one may disagree with the author's rationale for defaulting on his loans, the fact remains that there are now 40 million Americans with $1.3 TRILLION in student loan debt. That's not the odd, random screwup with a master's degree who can't hold down a job. Forty million people is nearly one in seven Americans.
The real, lifetime default rate of approximately 30% means that at some point millions of people are subjected to the abusive, unregulated, and illegal collection tactics of politically well-connected private collection agencies -- for-profit businesses that do little more in most cases than verify information the government already has by means of our drivers' licenses, voter registration, and tax returns.
Student loan debt is unprecedented in American consumer financial history. No other consumer debt has had ALL protections stripped away: bankruptcy, refinancing, statutes of limitations, and fair debt collection practices. While federal student debt may have "benefits" like forbearance and deferment, those are ultimately meaningless as they only postpone the inevitable and grow the original balance due.
The real, lifetime default rate of approximately 30% means that at some point millions of people are subjected to the abusive, unregulated, and illegal collection tactics of politically well-connected private collection agencies -- for-profit businesses that do little more in most cases than verify information the government already has by means of our drivers' licenses, voter registration, and tax returns.
Student loan debt is unprecedented in American consumer financial history. No other consumer debt has had ALL protections stripped away: bankruptcy, refinancing, statutes of limitations, and fair debt collection practices. While federal student debt may have "benefits" like forbearance and deferment, those are ultimately meaningless as they only postpone the inevitable and grow the original balance due.
19
A generation of indentured students may or may not build character. Is education a public or private good? We may know all of this better with GDP figures over the next 10 years. Whatever our students are paying for, the statistics suggest the outcomes, in terms of test scores, are not as good as other systems. Education, being a credence good, is a great thing to sell: kind of like vitamins and religion. Did the education prepare a student for the economy? If he or she fails was it the education, or the student's character? And then there is the debt. It is complicated.
1
Way to go, Lee. My story is similar. At 34 I married a woman who was smarter about these things than I was. I had stopped answering the bill collectors' phone calls, but she took them. She said, "We will be happy to pay in full at once, as soon as you provide us with a means to view the ORIGINAL note with my husband's signature. Not a copy." It took a while, six years, but the calls stopped and my credit report stopped showing the "default."
10
I have read this piece twice, in the hopes of finding some redeeming nugget to justify Siegel's casual dismissal of obligations he freely undertook. I couldn't find a one.
16
How about considering your integrity?
Every student signs a contract that says the interest rate, amount etc. regardless of age, you agree to borrow that amount to get an education that you otherwise could not. No one forced you to. No one has to go to a private liberal arts school. Whether or not you find it "worth it" or not after is irrelevant.
You are not entitled to live anywhere you want, work any job you want or have any specific standard of living. You earn those things and for many of us you have to pick and choose - you can't have it all.
Every student signs a contract that says the interest rate, amount etc. regardless of age, you agree to borrow that amount to get an education that you otherwise could not. No one forced you to. No one has to go to a private liberal arts school. Whether or not you find it "worth it" or not after is irrelevant.
You are not entitled to live anywhere you want, work any job you want or have any specific standard of living. You earn those things and for many of us you have to pick and choose - you can't have it all.
14
What does he think he was being promised for in return for the money? I suspect he was promised one thing -- an education. And it sounds like he is benefiting from that education. He probably will for his whole life. Oh, but he just doesn't want to actually pay for it like he agreed to... That would cause him "lifelong unhappiness." So he'd rather not.
Most people would be ashamed to admit something like this. He writes this article as if he's almost proud?
Most people would be ashamed to admit something like this. He writes this article as if he's almost proud?
22
This article holds particular fascination for me because yesterday I paid off my student loans. They were for a Doctorate of Ministry, a degree that helped not one bit with my income stream but which enriched my life and work immensely. Yeah I would have enjoyed using that money for something else, especially as I am now retired and on a fixed income. But it was the right thing to do and that matters.
17
We are living in a global economy. The cost of education is astronomical compared to some other countries. Whole sections of our country are cut out of the pool of people who can get higher education entirely. Those who are educated have their potential jobs filled by those whose education was a fraction of the cost and can be hired at a fraction of the cost. Defaulting on a student loan will give a poor credit rating, Looking at the big picture, Is the high cost of that education really something that the country should be proud of? That cost eliminates a whole section of the country from getting the eduction to contribute to the country. Someone said a mind is a terrible thing to waste. How many minds are wasted by the higher eduction industry's cost structure road block?
8
Poor confused soul. Unlike the medical system the cost of college is known upfront. You are going in with full knowledge and making a decision to not pay for what you got. How is that okay?
18
The more that don't pay, the quicker we can end this dream the banks seem to have (that this debt will ever be paid back) and the dream the public has (that incurring massive debt for school is prudent). Neither is true.
The whole system needs to change. Starving it seems to be the only method of ending the denial.
The whole system needs to change. Starving it seems to be the only method of ending the denial.
11
I am so disgusted by this. This article reeks of selfishness. Don't borrow money if you can't pay it back.
21
Benefit to society is not ultimately measured in dollars.
2
Education, especially higher education like college and technical schools, lead to better trained professionals and well rounded individuals. Going to higher education should be a right paid for by the government, not a privilege. Everyone benefits when the populace is more educated. The economy would benefit if each new incoming college generation wasn't saddled by debt.
12
Big G does not get money out of thin air, someone will have to pay for it. There is nothing free out there, someone is always paying for someone else.
So you were able to pull this off because your wife has good credit? How very brave of you, sir. The unfairly debt-ridden among us certainly need a voice. Just not sure you're it. Good start overall, though.
7
This is ridiculous. It's a "straw man" article, an almost completely inept argument against a system that is, in very point of fact, actually broken. One that only serves to make people in the same situation as the author look like imbeciiles.
The problem she is talking about is very real. The loan burden on low-income students is so high these days that one wonders how they are gaining any long term benefits from their education. Sure, they can get the same middle class jobs as their fellow--upper class--students. But, unlike those well off students, low income students will be crippled with a high debt that will, in fact, lower the standard of living they were trying so hard to improve by going to college.
Yet this article offers no real solution, instead the article seeks to make a virtue of ignoring your debts (does the author feel the same entitlement about rent/clothing/car payments/food?) It's almost like the article is designed to convince people who don't want to fix this problem feel justified in doing so. It makes fixing the actual issue all the harder as a result.
I empathize with the author, but in the final analysis, this article does far more to hurt the cause of low-income higher education than it does to help.
The problem she is talking about is very real. The loan burden on low-income students is so high these days that one wonders how they are gaining any long term benefits from their education. Sure, they can get the same middle class jobs as their fellow--upper class--students. But, unlike those well off students, low income students will be crippled with a high debt that will, in fact, lower the standard of living they were trying so hard to improve by going to college.
Yet this article offers no real solution, instead the article seeks to make a virtue of ignoring your debts (does the author feel the same entitlement about rent/clothing/car payments/food?) It's almost like the article is designed to convince people who don't want to fix this problem feel justified in doing so. It makes fixing the actual issue all the harder as a result.
I empathize with the author, but in the final analysis, this article does far more to hurt the cause of low-income higher education than it does to help.
6
article made me rage I had nj state scholarship started college got pregnant got married got separated but kept going to school had undiagnosed postpartum depression resulting in complete nervous breakdown hospitalization in 1969 school never advised my mother to drop my classes ergo when I returned to school had to get a loan had to work really crapppy jobs nj wouldn't let me do student teaching stole my career years later heard from irs salary was going to be garnished over loan 15 yrs later contacted congressman and soon met the man I married he paid it off my daughter who was murdered her student loans were paid by her estate this guy I hope he gets tagged by irs why not he's lucky I didn't get to teach til my job paid for my ma I did student teaching got certificates got another's scholarship got ph.d husband and I because I left good paying Union protected stupid job to teach had money troubles we had to use my daughters ins money blood money as I call it to pay our debts this writer should pay his debt
1
As someone who graduated with nearly 60k in loans and has decided - against all practical and rational advice - to be a self-employed person in a creative field (going on 6 years now) that in a good year affords me a bottom tier middle class income I can't help but feel indignance towards the writer.
I hate my loans, I hate them and they are a shackle - but I would not be where I am without them. College and graduate school afforded me the opportunity to pursue an income in following my passion and I pay my bills every month and maintain a very good credit score regardless. I live in a way where I can invest in the work I care about, pay my bills, save what little I can and that's it. It is possible. It's the deal I made and I take responsibility for it. One can complain about universities and lenders all they want, and I would agree that there is a desperate need for reform, but that doesn't change the fact that the writer is simply excusing himself of responsibility for the situation because he feels above it. Not to mention that when the author went to school prices were much more reasonable than when I was in school.
This writer and ones like him are going to make it worse for the rest of us that respect the agreement we've made and do our best to live up to it, even if we later think it's not so fair. We need to take responsibility for our actions.
I hate my loans, I hate them and they are a shackle - but I would not be where I am without them. College and graduate school afforded me the opportunity to pursue an income in following my passion and I pay my bills every month and maintain a very good credit score regardless. I live in a way where I can invest in the work I care about, pay my bills, save what little I can and that's it. It is possible. It's the deal I made and I take responsibility for it. One can complain about universities and lenders all they want, and I would agree that there is a desperate need for reform, but that doesn't change the fact that the writer is simply excusing himself of responsibility for the situation because he feels above it. Not to mention that when the author went to school prices were much more reasonable than when I was in school.
This writer and ones like him are going to make it worse for the rest of us that respect the agreement we've made and do our best to live up to it, even if we later think it's not so fair. We need to take responsibility for our actions.
30
Of course, his decision to not repay his loans *is* morally and legally reprehensible, and yet, to me at least, forgivable. A decision that you make at 17—a decision made as a minor—should not have to affect the rest of your life so drastically. If he truly could not imagine any life than one where he is working in his favorite career, he probably couldn't make himself do it for long. If you hate being banker, there is no way you are going to make yourself work as a banker for *decades*. It's just not going to happen. Your only options would be suicide or to quit. And neither of those options includes repayment of loans, so you might as well save a man's life and allow him to contribute to society in some way. Obviously, to stop this sort of thing from occurring in the future, we need much more regulation of the student loans market.
4
I defaulted on my student loans in 2010. I was unemployed and was diagnosed with cancer. I owed and still owe a sizable balance. The default tanked my credit scores which affects all kinds of other things such as interest rates on credit cards, car loans, utility deposits, and car insurance premiums. It's nobody's responsibility but mine as I pursued undergraduate and grading degrees. While I could have and should have requested a hardship forbearance, it was the last thing I was thinking about while juggling doctor visits, surgery, paying rent, eating, and keeping the lights on. It was also my daughter's senior year in high school which is full of expenses. Thankfully I was able to participate in the federal student loan rehabilitation program which put me back on track, removed the default status, and wiped the slate clean credit wise. I now have a modest income based repayment plan and am working towards completing 10 years in the non-profit/public sector after which the balance owed after 10 years of payments will be forgiven. While I understand the inclination to default on student, it's not the answer to the issues of high tuition, stagnant earnings, uncooperative loan servicers, and few avenues of relief or debt forgiveness.
9
Not an option for those us that require a license to practice trees that are useful to society. BTW since when does US society value writers, advocates, therapists, teachers, spiritual leaders or others who care about others as much as they do themselves and do the work rewarded by the mission rather than the cash?
2
Emily, I agree it's not an option when a license is needed. But I have to say that I am grateful that someone has been able to do what Lee has done and write about it. Not everyone can. Period. But those who can, should. It really is one way to make the profiteers listen. I've tried all the others--
Would you like some cheese with that whine, sir? Why are we publishing this self-important, delusional drivel? Give the column inches to someone who accomplished something.
42
The larger issue here is a society that looks at the need for education as first and foremost an opportunity for third party profiteering. It’s the same society that looks at illness and injury as first and foremost as an opportunity for third party profiteering. An inevitable precipitate from this will be education bankruptcies rising to the level of medical bankruptcies.
69
Not true 40 years ago, when the first loan was taken out, in Siegel's telling.
What would Ms Siegel think if publications for which she writes contractually said they would pay her for her work and then withheld payment once her work had been published. Would she have a different perspective on responsibility and obligations?
37
I find it interesting that you assume this person is a "she". Not saying you don't have a point, but interesting that the automatic assumption is that it was a woman who wrote the article.
I have assumed incorrectly. Before posting this comment, I was also reading facebook comments on this article, and at the time, most commenters there where using the pronoun she. I should have researched before commenting. (My middle name is Lee so it seemed reasonable that she was the correct pronoun to use.)
I am an active investor/lender on Lending Club which was set up to cut out the middle man of banks and other high interest lenders. It is the power of people coming together via technology for 1) borrowers getting lower interest rates on their borrowings, 2) investors receiving higher interest rates over bank CD's and the little to no interest on checking accounts, savings accounts, and money markets. While I can invest in individual loans on Lending Club, I just do it as a "bucket" of investors. There are no names involved, investors trust LC to identify good borrowers who will pay us back.
The model relies in part on a borrowers credit score. You could have been proactive to find a better solution at a lower interest rate available at LC. My tax payer dollars bailed out the banks (all of our tax payer dollars, including you), so I stopped letting banks pay me little or no interest. So far I am very very pleased with LC.
Moving forward, you should be banned from Lending Club and similar programs. Nothing personal, these markets are fluid and the market now needs to deal with you accordingly. Being intellectually lazy to find a solution is not a real reason to not pay your debts.
The model relies in part on a borrowers credit score. You could have been proactive to find a better solution at a lower interest rate available at LC. My tax payer dollars bailed out the banks (all of our tax payer dollars, including you), so I stopped letting banks pay me little or no interest. So far I am very very pleased with LC.
Moving forward, you should be banned from Lending Club and similar programs. Nothing personal, these markets are fluid and the market now needs to deal with you accordingly. Being intellectually lazy to find a solution is not a real reason to not pay your debts.
5
"Live with or marry someone with good credit (preferably someone who shares your desperate nihilism)." Never mind love, or having a soul mate. It's all about credit? How is that different than compromising one's vocation? Life, hopefully, is relatively long with many stages over a life course. There may be time to take an abhorrent job and work toward a writing career later. What isn't mentioned here is what sometimes proves true - a lack of credit, speculative loans, and one or two misfortunes can end up in bankruptcy; all that's been worked for becomes subject to liens in legal proceedings with debtors lining up, including, I would guess, the DOE. I am not saying that the practices of inflated tuition and loans that inflate the way students go to college, and live toward startling debt are good ones -- but default doesn't seem the best option. I worked my way through school in the days when one could do that reasonably. Surely there are still more ways to make college attainable today, and to repay our debts so others can advance toward what they wish in life. Students should reckon their debt to success in life quotient before buying into a college scheme, as good consumers. Only then will colleges take notice. We've inflated everything, driven by expectations of parents, especially. The pressure cooker is unsustainable.
244
"Students should reckon their debt to success in life quotient before buying into a college scheme, as good consumers."
Jo, the problem here is that education is not simply a private good, and students are not merely "consumers."
Education is to a significant degree a public good and the expansion of the mind and the obtainment of knowledge and understanding cannot be reduced to an act of consumerism.
Banks now control access to college for most American families. This is a problem. The job markets are terrible. This is a problem. Millions of people are accruing a lifetime of debt (i.e. debt-peonage) to obtain an education. This is a problem
Socially we want as many people obtaining a college degree as wants to. We no longer have such as system.
Suggesting individuals to be "good consumers" is a social and political copout.
Jo, the problem here is that education is not simply a private good, and students are not merely "consumers."
Education is to a significant degree a public good and the expansion of the mind and the obtainment of knowledge and understanding cannot be reduced to an act of consumerism.
Banks now control access to college for most American families. This is a problem. The job markets are terrible. This is a problem. Millions of people are accruing a lifetime of debt (i.e. debt-peonage) to obtain an education. This is a problem
Socially we want as many people obtaining a college degree as wants to. We no longer have such as system.
Suggesting individuals to be "good consumers" is a social and political copout.
6
Bankruptcy and a fresh start is one of the best parts of the American social structure. It is wrong that students can not practically avail themselves of this good idea. If enabling bankruptcy means the student loan program is cut back, so be it. Nobody wins when people spend their entire lives running from creditors.
28
When you choose to do graduate work at an incredibly expensive college such as Columbia University you know you are taking on 80K in debt. This is a bad choice for someone for whom a lucrative career means self-disgust and lifelong unhappiness. If you are more suited to being an artist, writer, teacher, or social worker (all admirable choices) then you should factor you future earning potential into you choice of schools. The author states that his education opened a new life for him. Shouldn't one pay the debts they make, even if they feel later that they made a bad choice?
27
What ever happened to personal responsibility? I went to college, and worked. My 3 kids went to college and worked. Yet for one reason, or another some people think they deserve something free, that most of us had to pay to get. I agree that a lot of schools have taken advantage of easy school loans, and that door should be closed. Everyone, and I do mean everyone deserves an education, but when you have to work for something, and pay for it yourself, it will always have more value.
335
Whatever happened to affordable tuition, whatever happened to good paying jobs?
7
I went to a California State University back in the 70's. The tuition was $180 a year. In other words, the tuition was virtually free, because the government and the tax payers of that era believed in quality education for all. Then came the "Reagan Revolution" and people like you who believe that "some people think they deserve something free". What sad times we live in.
2
Says a person of privilege about a time when school cost much less, compared to minimum wage.
1
Take it from someone who has been paying on their student loan for 15 years and has spent time thinking about this subject... no one is really interested. Sorry.
61
A continuation from previous comment:
A few years later my cancer came back and this time it was worse but fortunately I was able to get disability because of the ongoing treatment for the next 5 – forever years and the effects of the chemo are sickening and the surgeries in-between. Guess what? The government will garnish your disability checks as well! Thankfully I stumbled across information and was able to discharge my loans because of total and permanent disability but I still have to claim them on my taxes.
So you see it’s not all wine and roses if you decide to default on your student loans I personally think the writer made this story up just to have something submitted for copy and unfortunately the copy editors did not fact check.
A few years later my cancer came back and this time it was worse but fortunately I was able to get disability because of the ongoing treatment for the next 5 – forever years and the effects of the chemo are sickening and the surgeries in-between. Guess what? The government will garnish your disability checks as well! Thankfully I stumbled across information and was able to discharge my loans because of total and permanent disability but I still have to claim them on my taxes.
So you see it’s not all wine and roses if you decide to default on your student loans I personally think the writer made this story up just to have something submitted for copy and unfortunately the copy editors did not fact check.
41
Agreed, and the Feds will come after Social Security retirement checks, as well. Defaulting probably isn't worth it, and it certainly isn't the ethical thing to do. Income-based repayment is available for publicly-sourced loans, to ensure that payments do not represent too heavy a monthly burden, and the loans are forgiven after 10 years of public/non-profit service or 25 years of payments. Relief is already available to those who need it. That said, schools are charging too much for a college education.
1
This article is nonsense! I have personally gone through a lot of this and it’s not as the writer has described. I graduated college when the government was handing out the H1B Visas like they were candy claiming there were no educated Americans to fill the jobs, funny myself and fellow graduates had a heck of a time getting jobs some were still unemployed 6 months to a year after graduation. We were not looking to make a million dollars a year, just a wage where we could live and pay back our loans. Second the divorce and then thirdly the cancer.
After a few deferments on my loans they wanted payment and as I struggled to keep a roof over my head and feed and clothe my child I defaulted. Tried to work things out but it was useless and then came the repercussions. Credit cards I had (2) which had no balances but were for emergencies were rescinded from the bank which left me without a safety net. Forget about tax refunds they get confiscated to pay the loans. My bank closed and had to open another checking account, forget that too with a default on your credit report you are not getting a checking account even though I had bounced 3 checks in my lifetime. When I was recovering from cancer and the surgeries I went back to work only to find the government garnishing my wages to go to the student loans. If you are looking for a job, if the company is considering you they will run criminal and financial background check and if it is poor forget about getting the job.
After a few deferments on my loans they wanted payment and as I struggled to keep a roof over my head and feed and clothe my child I defaulted. Tried to work things out but it was useless and then came the repercussions. Credit cards I had (2) which had no balances but were for emergencies were rescinded from the bank which left me without a safety net. Forget about tax refunds they get confiscated to pay the loans. My bank closed and had to open another checking account, forget that too with a default on your credit report you are not getting a checking account even though I had bounced 3 checks in my lifetime. When I was recovering from cancer and the surgeries I went back to work only to find the government garnishing my wages to go to the student loans. If you are looking for a job, if the company is considering you they will run criminal and financial background check and if it is poor forget about getting the job.
47
thank you Carol for sharing the reality, people like you are my true heroes
the other self-righteous commentators here seem to think they have personally paid the author's student loans out of their tax dollars. In fact, the banks, who he pointed out have gone out of business, absorbed part of the loss, and the rest of the loans remain on the books of the collection agencies who make a handsome profit from collecting them.
The selfish, entitled ones are the taxxpayers who imagine that they should be the ones getting a free ride from a healthy, educated population - people like you, Carol, who have contributed far more than their fair share, and are not only not recognized for their contribution to society, but are reviled as deadbeats.
Don't know how a society can get more sick and self-destructive than that, frankly.
the other self-righteous commentators here seem to think they have personally paid the author's student loans out of their tax dollars. In fact, the banks, who he pointed out have gone out of business, absorbed part of the loss, and the rest of the loans remain on the books of the collection agencies who make a handsome profit from collecting them.
The selfish, entitled ones are the taxxpayers who imagine that they should be the ones getting a free ride from a healthy, educated population - people like you, Carol, who have contributed far more than their fair share, and are not only not recognized for their contribution to society, but are reviled as deadbeats.
Don't know how a society can get more sick and self-destructive than that, frankly.
6
If education were "guaranteed" it would be a lot more selective, and less liberal, like it is in Europe. I'm not saying that's wrong, but free education as it is known in other parts of the world, IS a lot more pragmatic than university education as we know it in the US.
The idea that we can all study whatever we want and charge it to the taxpayers is just absurd. Think it through. You pay, you study whatever you want. We pay, then we train you to do a job.
The idea that we can all study whatever we want and charge it to the taxpayers is just absurd. Think it through. You pay, you study whatever you want. We pay, then we train you to do a job.
189
Yes, but the European model then would also tend to heighten a lengthy road to a degree and have more options for students that didn't meet a university level.
The assumption of this article, while not stated, is that there is an unhealthy idea with education here in the US. This is quite true. You are taught you are a failure if you go to a trade, or you are a failure if you can't pay your debt.
For the underprivileged, this glimmer of privilege is what animates them to do well in school. Yet it is a completely false reality to the job situation.
The assumption of this article, while not stated, is that there is an unhealthy idea with education here in the US. This is quite true. You are taught you are a failure if you go to a trade, or you are a failure if you can't pay your debt.
For the underprivileged, this glimmer of privilege is what animates them to do well in school. Yet it is a completely false reality to the job situation.
5
Agree. In graduate school I did a semester abroad. I had always thought that free/almost free education was more humane than the US system. Then I got there and there were no poor, lower middle or even middle class kids at the university!
Also I felt that the students took their studies less seriously if they didn't have to pay for it.
Also I felt that the students took their studies less seriously if they didn't have to pay for it.
6
Very good post. And don't forget the "Universities of Phoenix" and their ilk, hard-selling their useless programs to their gullible victims, with full corrupt government support.
4
Wow. Astoundingly arrogant. I can see saying no to outrageous interest rates and penalties, but to not at least pay the principal is truly immoral and wrong.
528
In this system, there is no "paying the principal." Even if you pay on default, penalties and interest continue to accrue and your payments are applied to Those - not the principal. It's indebtedness for life. If paying off the principal and a just penalty were possible, I would have done it years ago.
10
Even if it was a contract you were led to as a minor when you had no real understanding of the lifelong ramifications of signing it?
5
You CAN'T just "pay the principal." The loan people (?) take the interest first--then the principal. And yes, the loan people who look like humans are indeed "Immoral and wrong."
12
Gosh, Lee, if everyone did that, the whole system of allowing smart kids from working-class families to indenture themselves would collapse, and where would we be then?
Thank you for saying it out loud: Default is survivable, it's not a crime, and you should never have been put in that position. Nor I, nor my wife, nor my brother-in-law...and we've all contributed to society after not being able to make those payments after a bit of bad luck.
Thank you for saying it out loud: Default is survivable, it's not a crime, and you should never have been put in that position. Nor I, nor my wife, nor my brother-in-law...and we've all contributed to society after not being able to make those payments after a bit of bad luck.
158
Uh, Lee wasn't put in that position. He put himself in it. I wonder to what extent you, yourself, and your brother-in-law did as well...it's hard to tell what "bad luck" means.
7
Here. Here.
I agree that we need to take the moral judgment out of such fact-based decisions. This woman sized up the pros and cons and made a perfectly legal decision based on the data in front of her. Corporations do this all the time, to the tunes of billions (and sometimes trillions) of dollars when it comes to shifting money around, storing it off shore, and defaulting on debts, usually with little backlash.
I once knew a woman who (at her husband's behest) intentionally got Botox, collagen injections, boob job, and eyelift... the works... knowing full well that the following week she and her husband would be declaring bankruptcy. One may consider such an act immoral. Fair enough. However, you cannot begin to compare this case to the author's. I don't think the author took out the debt intending to never repay it. Hence, no moral judgment from me. She tried and failed to pay it back. Call that a failure, but not a moral failure.
I once knew a woman who (at her husband's behest) intentionally got Botox, collagen injections, boob job, and eyelift... the works... knowing full well that the following week she and her husband would be declaring bankruptcy. One may consider such an act immoral. Fair enough. However, you cannot begin to compare this case to the author's. I don't think the author took out the debt intending to never repay it. Hence, no moral judgment from me. She tried and failed to pay it back. Call that a failure, but not a moral failure.
74
I don't at all disagree with the author's justifications for defaulting on his student loans. I in fact came to much the same conclusion about my own loans years ago and agree wholeheartedly that the system is corrupt, exploitative, and needs to be reformed. The problem I have is with his blithe assurances that it is possible to default on your student loans indefinitely. I can tell you from personal experience that it is not. They will eventually track you down and hound you til you pay. If you somehow manage to elude them by getting an under the table job (much harder these days than it once was), you'd better hope it lasts til you die, because the second you get an above- board job, your wages will be garnished, your tax return (if eligible for one) will be claimed, you will be constantly harassed at home and at work, and you will never ever receive your Social Security if and when you get to retirement age. I ultimately found it less stressful to deal with them and pay the minimum through an income-based repayment plan which is, actually easier now than it was when I was originally trying to negotiate my repayment. The author and anyone who follows his advice will need much stamina and fortitude and be willing to live in a constant state of anxiety. Or maybe you'll win the lottery and all your worries will be over! Good luck.
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One of the only debts that can't be forgiven by bankruptcy or debt. When we make it a burden to learn, it's a great sign of a rapidly-declining nation.
I'm looking at you, Mr. Walker, slicing already-meager teacher compensation and eviscerating higher education.
We ought to be more like Lee, and more like Greece, refusing to service debt we were assigned unfairly.
I'm looking at you, Mr. Walker, slicing already-meager teacher compensation and eviscerating higher education.
We ought to be more like Lee, and more like Greece, refusing to service debt we were assigned unfairly.
229
"We ought to be more like Lee, and more like Greece, refusing to service debt we were assigned unfairly."
Ok, so when you signed; it was unfair that you agreed to the deal?
It's unfair to take you at your word and expect you to honor your agreement?
I'll hire you; for whatever wage you want... but come first payday remember it's unfair to expect ME to honor MY word as well. I'm pretending I never hired you.
What? Wouldn't it be unfair to expect me to keep my word too? Why not?
Ok, so when you signed; it was unfair that you agreed to the deal?
It's unfair to take you at your word and expect you to honor your agreement?
I'll hire you; for whatever wage you want... but come first payday remember it's unfair to expect ME to honor MY word as well. I'm pretending I never hired you.
What? Wouldn't it be unfair to expect me to keep my word too? Why not?
11
Have no fear, the corporations are hard at work lobbying for ever more exclusions from bankruptcy; often under the guise of benefits to society.
4
It's way past time for all the "kids" with all this debt to organize and use the debt as leverage to get a better deal. I had to work at a horrible job (wall street) for 15 years in order to pay off mine. It set me back those 15 years from doing what a should have been doing all along.
77
If you had quantified your efforts to pay back the loans, showing that you had covered principal plus normally-reasonable amounts of interest, and also showing that the system, as it is, allows too much interest to accumulate when people make only minimum payments, and that people are often prohibited from renegotiating, refinancing or paying down their loans quickly to reduce their interest outlay, and that thereby the system, as it is, is rigged in favor of bankers, then I'd understand your argument. But all you seem to be saying is that in 30 years, you could or would not pay off your loan, so wth.
Hey. For me, it was a privilege to have gotten a loan, and a privilege to pay it off.
Nothing is free. When you sign up for a rules-based transaction, you should do your best to follow the rules, and not resent or undermine the deal you made.
If I were living your life, I would find some way to finish paying the loan. I think this piece is about despair, and guilt, and only incidentally about the unfairness of the system as it is now. Best of luck to you. In writing this, you're finding ways of facing it.
Hey. For me, it was a privilege to have gotten a loan, and a privilege to pay it off.
Nothing is free. When you sign up for a rules-based transaction, you should do your best to follow the rules, and not resent or undermine the deal you made.
If I were living your life, I would find some way to finish paying the loan. I think this piece is about despair, and guilt, and only incidentally about the unfairness of the system as it is now. Best of luck to you. In writing this, you're finding ways of facing it.
61
I think this piece is about entitlement and exceptionalism -- and if it stands as an example of Siegel's "particular usefulness to society," I'm not impressed.
8
Wow, Heather. You think this piece is about despair and guilt and only "incidentally"about the unfairness of the system? Where is the despair, the guilt? You are imagining something that isn't there, like telling someone they aren't REALLY angry--they are sad, or frightened or whatever. Now that is arrogant--or is it? Perhaps you are imposing what you might feel in her place. And this article is not "incidentally" about a corrupt system built to exploit those who use it--it's completely about that system that effectively silences dissent from people who have learned to feel guilt and despair rather than stand up to the immoral financial despots who control this country.
7
Constance,
The Author is the problem here not the system. If you don't like the terms don't borrow the money. Additionally I don't understand how a people who select a career which offers them an uncertain or no choice of earning an income expect to feed themselves let alone pay back a loan.
This sounds a lot like the rest of you owe me a living! How is that different than just robbing a convenience store?
The Author is the problem here not the system. If you don't like the terms don't borrow the money. Additionally I don't understand how a people who select a career which offers them an uncertain or no choice of earning an income expect to feed themselves let alone pay back a loan.
This sounds a lot like the rest of you owe me a living! How is that different than just robbing a convenience store?
7
Since your bio says you are the author of five books - and if it's the right Lee Siegel - your work appears in major publications - why don't you start paying back the debt now? You could pay it in small increments with your writing fees, advances or royalties. You're doing what you want to do, so you no longer have the excuse that you'd have to take a horrible soul-crushing job. You could have protested the laws and college fees instead of signing legal documents that make you a liar and deadbeat. Instead of being proud of this, you have a chance to correct it. It's never too late to do the right thing.
1079
Good observation, Susan Shapiro. I applaud your saying it as it is. BTW, you're a good writer and teacher, too.
17
The present system iis corrupt and needs to be overthrown. The sheeple going along with this outrage are guilty of perpetrating an evil akin to slavery.
8
Hipocrit! Now it is easy to conclude everything you had conclude. That the job isn't worth anymore and also the loan.
Why you didn't write this text before the loan and deliver it to the banker. And , then, asked for the money?
All the intricated reasons that you now invent and pretend of why you aren't immoral in defaulting. RIDICULOUS!
You are just adding statistics for other people that came from a humble situation like you and doesn't have any money and won't have access to that loan that you didn't pay. But if he did, he would fulfill his debts and pay his loan.
You are a shame. A guy that doesn't have word and will hurt other people that were in the same situation as you, and won't get their dreams near with a loan like the one you got and default.
Be a man. And assume your responsibilities.
Why you didn't write this text before the loan and deliver it to the banker. And , then, asked for the money?
All the intricated reasons that you now invent and pretend of why you aren't immoral in defaulting. RIDICULOUS!
You are just adding statistics for other people that came from a humble situation like you and doesn't have any money and won't have access to that loan that you didn't pay. But if he did, he would fulfill his debts and pay his loan.
You are a shame. A guy that doesn't have word and will hurt other people that were in the same situation as you, and won't get their dreams near with a loan like the one you got and default.
Be a man. And assume your responsibilities.
23
Yes, it is high time for the paid education system and the education loan system to change. I agree with the general message here. The only way to force the necessary changes is for citizens to no longer cooperate with those whom have convinced us to pay for what should be ours by right.
82
When did you develop the "right" to the labor of others, to benefit you, at no cost to you?
8
A system charging above market interest rates and laying the risk on the taxpayer is already bankrupt. I applaud the author.
286
Was the interest charged above market? Maybe not, since the guy did turn out to be less than reliable.
6
Good lord, the egotism is breathtaking. I am now re-thinking my long-standing opposition to going after student loan defaulters.
406
They spell it j-o-b, not f-u-n for a reason. You don't have to love your work, but you do have a moral obligation to pay your debts. The wool might have been pulled over this writer's eyes for undergrad (it happened to me, too), but presumably they knew exactly what they were doing taking on grad school debt and did it anyway.
One doesn't get to decide how society should value them; it goes the other way around. I'm guessing debts paid might rank higher in value than yet another gen-y memoir on the shelves.
One doesn't get to decide how society should value them; it goes the other way around. I'm guessing debts paid might rank higher in value than yet another gen-y memoir on the shelves.
181
How long since you've looked for a job, Rlees? I mean right out of college, with no experience.
The number of jobs paying a living wage plus enough to meet you debt obligations are few and getting fewer.
The implicit contract you make with your college when you take on your debt is that they will equip you to work, and you will pay them back out of the wages you earn.
Then you graduate, and find out there are no jobs. What then?
The number of jobs paying a living wage plus enough to meet you debt obligations are few and getting fewer.
The implicit contract you make with your college when you take on your debt is that they will equip you to work, and you will pay them back out of the wages you earn.
Then you graduate, and find out there are no jobs. What then?
11
About one thing, he's absolutely right: the government should not be in the business of lending (or guaranteeing, or collecting) loans. It should get out of the student loan biz, out of the mortgage biz, etc. People should pay for the things they want; the taxpayers should not be involved.
And he's also right that colleges are often dens of thieves. They pay Paul Krugman and Robert Reich a cool quarter million per annum to teach one course. Maybe. Harvard paid Senator Warren about $350K, again to hardly teach anything. Perhaps if the schools weren't paying leftists huge sums not to teach, and providing dozens of fluff courses in which the word "gender" appears, college could be affordable AND meaningful.
The idea that any adult is entitled to anything -- let alone a taxpayer subsidized ticket to living in Montclair and writing for Slate -- is utter nonsense.
College is a great idea, but it's like anything else: if you want it, pay for it.