The Bill of Rights is more important.
Also, Spying is not security. Instead of doing the hard work, they take the easy path by wasting time tracking grandma. It is security theater. Smoke and mirrors.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~ Benjamin Franklin
Also, Spying is not security. Instead of doing the hard work, they take the easy path by wasting time tracking grandma. It is security theater. Smoke and mirrors.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~ Benjamin Franklin
2
So, a massive bureaucracy, that they can't show to be effective is still in place, but a little limited. Forgive me if I don't show any sympathy. Homeland Security is a farce. TSA is a farce. It's all security theatre.
2
“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
― Benjamin Franklin
This was said in 1755 during the French and Indian War in a letter. Mr. Franklin's words ring just as true then as they do now.
The security state that the US government has built is not for our protection. The DOJ Inspector General has already declared the meta data gathering method has not produced one terrorist threat.
A conservative Republican from Ronald Reagan's AG office Bruce Fein has warned us to be wary of this surveillance.
Why does the NSA have to scoop up data on it's citizens. It's justification is to protect us from attack from foreign enemies and provide intelligence on foreign governments, their citizens and our potential adversaries or real adversaries. Since when are 300 million citizens of the US considered a threat?
― Benjamin Franklin
This was said in 1755 during the French and Indian War in a letter. Mr. Franklin's words ring just as true then as they do now.
The security state that the US government has built is not for our protection. The DOJ Inspector General has already declared the meta data gathering method has not produced one terrorist threat.
A conservative Republican from Ronald Reagan's AG office Bruce Fein has warned us to be wary of this surveillance.
Why does the NSA have to scoop up data on it's citizens. It's justification is to protect us from attack from foreign enemies and provide intelligence on foreign governments, their citizens and our potential adversaries or real adversaries. Since when are 300 million citizens of the US considered a threat?
5
How would you like it if the government kept a record of everyone who mailed you a letter or to whom you mailed a letter? Wouldn't that be the same as keeping a record of everyone you telephoned or telephoned you? Don't forget, all governments are naturally inclined toward tyranny. In the U.S., the constitution is our best defense against governmental tyranny. Use it!
5
This is for the best. Collecting relevant metadata is much more likely to lead to successful detection of wrongdoing than collecting a mountain of useless information and then chasing through it all looking for clues - even though computers are capable of storing all the information and searching them using brute force methods. This also eliminates the moral hazards associated with having sensitive information lying around, ripe for misuse. What is not clear to me is whether project PRISM is still in force, and allowed to operate. This is where government agencies were allowed to intimidate companies like Google to give them direct access to their servers, so the agencies could siphon off sensitive information like mail archives, URL search histories, and such. It seems to me that project PRISM is the more dangerous of the two, and needs to be curtailed along the same lines as collection of telephone metadata. Hope congress did the right thing regarding PRISM as well.
2
Obama's Freedom Act, which revives unwanted, unnecessary, and unconstitutional intrusions into all of our lives by continuing to read, snoop, gather and compile every single thing any American citizen of any age does on a computer, cell phone or digital device is for the best?
Yeah, for the best if you're a lobbyist or CEO of these companies who backdoor into the Obama WH constantly to line Obama's pockets with cash as they sip cognac in the Oval Office.
Yeah, for the best if you're a lobbyist or CEO of these companies who backdoor into the Obama WH constantly to line Obama's pockets with cash as they sip cognac in the Oval Office.
@DCBarrister: No, you got me wrong. The fact that they are curtailing the collection of metadata to what is allowed by due process (public court ruling) is for the best, is what I meant. Read what I have said regarding the PRISM project carefully. I am against any sort of illegal/unconstitutional data collection.
This began under the Bush administration but use any excuse you can to blame Obama. His fault is in not getting rid of it.
These small changes don't inhibit the bigger/permanent invasions of our privacy by government agencies.
Fortunately, encryption does work very well to protect privacy.
I would urge all technology companies to accelerate their implementation of encryption in their products. Please turn it on by default. This is the only way we'll regain our privacy in the digital age. Governments aren't going to protect our rights, so we're relying on you.
Fortunately, encryption does work very well to protect privacy.
I would urge all technology companies to accelerate their implementation of encryption in their products. Please turn it on by default. This is the only way we'll regain our privacy in the digital age. Governments aren't going to protect our rights, so we're relying on you.
3
Aside from the surveillance hoopla, what this sorry episode finally revealed is what a totally ineffectual so-called "leader" Mitch McConnell is. No wonder Republicans in Congress are in such disarray. Here is an individual who is totally out of his depth.
7
Requiring a court approval to look at a citizen phone and data records is exactly how a democracy of checks and balances should work. This is a victory for all American citizens.
Now, if we could just get corporate lobbyists out of government, we'd really take a step back in the direction our forefathers intended when the wrote the United States Constitution.
Now, if we could just get corporate lobbyists out of government, we'd really take a step back in the direction our forefathers intended when the wrote the United States Constitution.
5
Way over the top pontifications here about "free society" and "free speech" and "privacy" and love that Rand Paul rhetoric.
Seems to me that commenters don't realize that the original surveillance act only allowed viewing of addresses, phone numbers---not the contents of them. These should have been continued and not made into a political football by Paul and other Presidential candidates. They're playing with fire and I hope we don't get burned.
Seems to me that commenters don't realize that the original surveillance act only allowed viewing of addresses, phone numbers---not the contents of them. These should have been continued and not made into a political football by Paul and other Presidential candidates. They're playing with fire and I hope we don't get burned.
3
The Revised Obama Presidential Legacy:
100 million Americans out of the workforce, likely forever.
Skyrocketing Obamacare costs driving doctors out of the profession and patients into worse health scenarios with gov't controlled, rationed healthcare.
Poverty rates in the Black community higher under Obama in 6 years than under either Bush or Clinton in the previous 12.
Obama working WITH GOP to expand Patriot Act abuses.
Obama bailing out banks and giving aid and comfort to Wall Street elite.
Obama freeing terrorist leaders to circumvent the law on GITMO.
Obama lying about his faith and belief in marriage from 2007-2012 when he "evolved" on both.
National debt under Obama higher than all previous Presidents combined.
More division, distrust and disrespect of the USA around the world.
Obama has met more times with late night comedians than GOP leaders in the last two years.
What a historic day.
100 million Americans out of the workforce, likely forever.
Skyrocketing Obamacare costs driving doctors out of the profession and patients into worse health scenarios with gov't controlled, rationed healthcare.
Poverty rates in the Black community higher under Obama in 6 years than under either Bush or Clinton in the previous 12.
Obama working WITH GOP to expand Patriot Act abuses.
Obama bailing out banks and giving aid and comfort to Wall Street elite.
Obama freeing terrorist leaders to circumvent the law on GITMO.
Obama lying about his faith and belief in marriage from 2007-2012 when he "evolved" on both.
National debt under Obama higher than all previous Presidents combined.
More division, distrust and disrespect of the USA around the world.
Obama has met more times with late night comedians than GOP leaders in the last two years.
What a historic day.
5
Don't forget, He's also responsible for your middle-aged love handles, psoriasis, and high cholesterol.
3
The one thing I am celebrating today?
In today's NY Times, an article by Michael D. Shear which the Times will probably delete after angry calls from Obama WH de-facto POTUS Valerie Jarrett says that Barack Obama "owns" the NSA domestic spy program.
For the first time in the Obama presidency, the NY Times held Obama accountable for years of lies and doublespeak. This is a historic occasion.
Obama revived the Patriot Act provisions that allow the US Gov't to monitor, hear and see everything all of us do on our computers and phones. And Obama expanded the data sweep more in 4 years than Bush did in 8.
It is about time the truth was a guest at the Obama presidency fiesta. It hasn't been for 6 years.
In today's NY Times, an article by Michael D. Shear which the Times will probably delete after angry calls from Obama WH de-facto POTUS Valerie Jarrett says that Barack Obama "owns" the NSA domestic spy program.
For the first time in the Obama presidency, the NY Times held Obama accountable for years of lies and doublespeak. This is a historic occasion.
Obama revived the Patriot Act provisions that allow the US Gov't to monitor, hear and see everything all of us do on our computers and phones. And Obama expanded the data sweep more in 4 years than Bush did in 8.
It is about time the truth was a guest at the Obama presidency fiesta. It hasn't been for 6 years.
4
Could it be that the reason for the NSA to miss the Boston bombers in spite of being warned about them and in spite of the older brother actually going on line to get instructions on how to build a bomb, isn't the reason that any useful information is burried under billions of records that were gathered not only illegally in breach of our constitution but as well it turns out needlessly?
I suspect "somebvody" (aka "some corporation") must be making money out of this program?
Pardon Edward Snowden already!
I suspect "somebvody" (aka "some corporation") must be making money out of this program?
Pardon Edward Snowden already!
4
Congress needs to review and amend the FISA laws, the Patriot Act, the USA Freedom Act.
These laws contain many unconstitutional provisions, inconsistent with our system of law and jurisprudence.
These laws contain many unconstitutional provisions, inconsistent with our system of law and jurisprudence.
2
Is the US still giving "raw data" to Israel?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/11/nsa-americans-personal-data...
Since Israeli intelligence plainly built the NSA networks
http://www.wired.com/2012/04/shady-companies-nsa/
and an unnamed Us official described Israeli spying against the Us as having reached "terrifying levels" - how confident are you that every email you send isn't being routed to Israel no matter what Congress claims to do?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/11/nsa-americans-personal-data...
Since Israeli intelligence plainly built the NSA networks
http://www.wired.com/2012/04/shady-companies-nsa/
and an unnamed Us official described Israeli spying against the Us as having reached "terrifying levels" - how confident are you that every email you send isn't being routed to Israel no matter what Congress claims to do?
2
Anything that Mitch doesn't like is fine by me - although "significant scaling back" is a huge overstatement. Our government simply cannot be trusted in any way, and I am sure that - just like the bankers - it will be business as usual for the "intelligence" community.
6
@Spook
Sadly, I tend to agree with you. In spite of the headlines and handwringing, I suspect an EO is being drawn up somewhere quietly, authorizing continued monitoring in spite of Congress' paroxysms to the contrary. And in a few months, or a few years time, the next Snowden will tell us the details. By then, Obama will be a private citizen.
Sadly, I tend to agree with you. In spite of the headlines and handwringing, I suspect an EO is being drawn up somewhere quietly, authorizing continued monitoring in spite of Congress' paroxysms to the contrary. And in a few months, or a few years time, the next Snowden will tell us the details. By then, Obama will be a private citizen.
1
Is what people are celebrating here really a victory for the 4th Amendment or the American people - or just for *corporate* America?
Why is it better for *corporations* to be the only ones who have all the metadata re: phone calls & emails. And not those who are responsible - & answerable to us - for preventing terrorist attacks here? It’s not as though all this information will be more *private* now- it’ll just be only in the hands of those who profit from it, & are answerable only to their stockholders. Do you believe they’re *not* mining this data, themselves? And, aren’t more phone calls made & more emails sent – don’t their profits, along with the defense industry’s, zoom after terrible things happen?
After 9/11, US intelligence was criticized for not 'connecting the dots.' Why is it good to make it harder for them to *find* the dots? If the data hasn’t helped the NSA to prevent any terrorist attacks, could this be because terrorists here & elsewhere have been hobbled by fear to communicate the way the rest of us do, knowing what data the NSA was collecting?
What parts of the Patriot Act that *will be* extended? Does anyone know? Or care?
Why is it better for *corporations* to be the only ones who have all the metadata re: phone calls & emails. And not those who are responsible - & answerable to us - for preventing terrorist attacks here? It’s not as though all this information will be more *private* now- it’ll just be only in the hands of those who profit from it, & are answerable only to their stockholders. Do you believe they’re *not* mining this data, themselves? And, aren’t more phone calls made & more emails sent – don’t their profits, along with the defense industry’s, zoom after terrible things happen?
After 9/11, US intelligence was criticized for not 'connecting the dots.' Why is it good to make it harder for them to *find* the dots? If the data hasn’t helped the NSA to prevent any terrorist attacks, could this be because terrorists here & elsewhere have been hobbled by fear to communicate the way the rest of us do, knowing what data the NSA was collecting?
What parts of the Patriot Act that *will be* extended? Does anyone know? Or care?
1
"Why is it better for *corporations* to be the only ones who have all the metadata re: phone calls & emails."
My thoughts exactly.
This is the peculiar strain of American libertariansim in action. The same one that has the SCOTUS declaring corporations have the legal protections of people, and that money is speech. While the rest of the world rightly holds both power centers of the modern world, government AND corporations, suspect, only Americans worry about one but rarely the other. Even when that 'other' is allowed to fleece Americans of pensions, life, and limb, in the name of (corporate) 'freedom' and 'liberty'. And this so-called 'significant scaling back' of NSA surveillance is but the latest example of our myopia about who the real actors in our society are.
My thoughts exactly.
This is the peculiar strain of American libertariansim in action. The same one that has the SCOTUS declaring corporations have the legal protections of people, and that money is speech. While the rest of the world rightly holds both power centers of the modern world, government AND corporations, suspect, only Americans worry about one but rarely the other. Even when that 'other' is allowed to fleece Americans of pensions, life, and limb, in the name of (corporate) 'freedom' and 'liberty'. And this so-called 'significant scaling back' of NSA surveillance is but the latest example of our myopia about who the real actors in our society are.
2
I am sure this era in time will be looked back the same way we view other breaches of the constitution, out of fear. The McCarthy witch hunts, the Japanese interment camps of WWII. All shameful, all fear-driven, all unconstitutional. Be brave and stick to the plan, it's a good one.
4
I hope you are right. That we can look back on this era, period [.] And, by implication, that we don't have an existential crisis, which could have been prevented by heightened surveillance.
But, it's the President's nickel now. We'll see. If it were I, I'd rather be safe than sorry. After all, I would have taken an oath to protect my countrymen and women.
One thing is for sure. The instances of home grown, or home influenced, sympathizers are on the up tick. I hope this was taken into consideration and that the new act isn't based on past facts. But I fear it was.
But, it's the President's nickel now. We'll see. If it were I, I'd rather be safe than sorry. After all, I would have taken an oath to protect my countrymen and women.
One thing is for sure. The instances of home grown, or home influenced, sympathizers are on the up tick. I hope this was taken into consideration and that the new act isn't based on past facts. But I fear it was.
1
@leftcoast
Sadly, I fear American governance was taken much more seriously in those days than today. Just look at the klown-car of the GOtP today, together with the 30 years of Democratic complicity and obfuscation with the dismantlement of the Rooseveltian safety net, labor protections, and banking regulations. Washington has been infected with a disease that will take a MUCH more sustained effort to turn around than the passage of a single bill involving the nation's security apparatus. Bernie Sanders is 73 years old. What we need is a new generation of Bernie Sanders' to carry the banner of serious institutional cooperation and accountability forward. Where does the inspiration for that hardest of projects come from in a world ruled by immortal, supranational, corporations?
Sadly, I fear American governance was taken much more seriously in those days than today. Just look at the klown-car of the GOtP today, together with the 30 years of Democratic complicity and obfuscation with the dismantlement of the Rooseveltian safety net, labor protections, and banking regulations. Washington has been infected with a disease that will take a MUCH more sustained effort to turn around than the passage of a single bill involving the nation's security apparatus. Bernie Sanders is 73 years old. What we need is a new generation of Bernie Sanders' to carry the banner of serious institutional cooperation and accountability forward. Where does the inspiration for that hardest of projects come from in a world ruled by immortal, supranational, corporations?
1
Snowden is a true hero. Sacrificing yourself for the good of your fellow citizens is the most honorable thing anyone can do.
6
As the least-competent President this country had had in my lifetime (I was born in 1932). Obama has more than a lot of chutzpah in scolding his opponents and coming out 4-squre in favor of government spying and prying on any and all of us. Shame on you. Mr. President. Why don't you try to be a real leader?
1
@OldDoc
How on earth do you get to 'least competent'? The previous president lied you into two wars, costing trillions, before leaving office with the global economy going down in flames. But Obama is 'least competent??
With a few exceptions, I think he's been the most stabilizing force in American politics since Kennedy, talking about serious issues with serious language and a demeanor that treats voters like adults, rather than whiney teenagers made to feel like they don't know what they're talking about.
I think you're confusing Obama being a lightening-rod, for manufactured controversy by his opponents who WANT and NEED him to appear incompetent, rather than an actual incompetent. Perhaps watching something other than FOX News would help?
How on earth do you get to 'least competent'? The previous president lied you into two wars, costing trillions, before leaving office with the global economy going down in flames. But Obama is 'least competent??
With a few exceptions, I think he's been the most stabilizing force in American politics since Kennedy, talking about serious issues with serious language and a demeanor that treats voters like adults, rather than whiney teenagers made to feel like they don't know what they're talking about.
I think you're confusing Obama being a lightening-rod, for manufactured controversy by his opponents who WANT and NEED him to appear incompetent, rather than an actual incompetent. Perhaps watching something other than FOX News would help?
7
What about the TSA and the Secret Service? The lapses into seeming unconsciousness by these two arms of our national security at home are incredulous.
I have seen this happen time and again in large bureaucracies over 40 year period. They lapse into rule-following-behavior and they go to sleep.
Example: Amsterdam Airport Schiphol -- is one of the biggest airports in Europe and also one of the most secure. The Dutch did not fall for over reliance on Tech Fix after 9/11 despite the fact that so many of the direct flights from Europe to America go through Schiphol. The Dutch place their reliance on the human factor -- I was flying from Berlin to Amsterdam and then on to America, 5 years ago. Our plane was delayed in our arrival at Schipholn, The airport was closed and we had no way of getting to airport hotel in the middle of the airport.
They sent a security person to take us in. -- He knew who we were where we were going. So I asked him -- how so -- his job was to know who was getting on planes coming into Schiplon before they got on their inbound flight.
That is the way to run an airport.
Like the technology required for the NSA surveillance programs, we place too much reliance on technology. They assume that all information can be reduced to explicit terms. The Dutch rely on tacit information as well, that only human beings have the capacity to handle.
I have seen this happen time and again in large bureaucracies over 40 year period. They lapse into rule-following-behavior and they go to sleep.
Example: Amsterdam Airport Schiphol -- is one of the biggest airports in Europe and also one of the most secure. The Dutch did not fall for over reliance on Tech Fix after 9/11 despite the fact that so many of the direct flights from Europe to America go through Schiphol. The Dutch place their reliance on the human factor -- I was flying from Berlin to Amsterdam and then on to America, 5 years ago. Our plane was delayed in our arrival at Schipholn, The airport was closed and we had no way of getting to airport hotel in the middle of the airport.
They sent a security person to take us in. -- He knew who we were where we were going. So I asked him -- how so -- his job was to know who was getting on planes coming into Schiplon before they got on their inbound flight.
That is the way to run an airport.
Like the technology required for the NSA surveillance programs, we place too much reliance on technology. They assume that all information can be reduced to explicit terms. The Dutch rely on tacit information as well, that only human beings have the capacity to handle.
1
It is encouraging for Senate Republicans to align their support more consistently with their expressed positions on big government and individual rights outside of fiscal austirity. Acknowlegement also extended to Senator Paul for making good on his pledge to filibuster Senate Majority leader McConnell's attempt to reinstitute a government domestic surrvelliance program of dangerous intrusive scope and unconfirmed effectiveness. I certainly want to express appreciation to the Democratic caucus of our Senate for being a vanguard in protecting individual Constitutional freedoms from unreasonable intrusions into the private lives of citizens.
9-11 is this generation's Pearl Harbor, another tragic day which will live in infamy. The murder of hundreds of US citizens on our soil was an unprecedented shock to our sense of national security. In retrospect, the passage of the Patriot Act was a far more egregious wound to our secruity and Constitutional freedoms than any foreign terrorist could ever achieve. In our collective horror and anger we legislated a series of extralegal and extrajudicial powers only the enemies of liberty would love.
If 9-11 is our generation's Pearl Harbour, the Patriot Act is this generation's post attack internment. The Patroit Act has placed all Americans into a internment camp of electronic surveillance and warrantless searches and intrusion. Sacrificing liberty to the false god of national secruity has invariably been a grevious mistake.
9-11 is this generation's Pearl Harbor, another tragic day which will live in infamy. The murder of hundreds of US citizens on our soil was an unprecedented shock to our sense of national security. In retrospect, the passage of the Patriot Act was a far more egregious wound to our secruity and Constitutional freedoms than any foreign terrorist could ever achieve. In our collective horror and anger we legislated a series of extralegal and extrajudicial powers only the enemies of liberty would love.
If 9-11 is our generation's Pearl Harbour, the Patriot Act is this generation's post attack internment. The Patroit Act has placed all Americans into a internment camp of electronic surveillance and warrantless searches and intrusion. Sacrificing liberty to the false god of national secruity has invariably been a grevious mistake.
3
To JD and others, who think that these programs failed... You do not know if they did or not. I am a former French Journalist. I lived in a France that in the 80's, lived under a permanent threat and had terrorists placing bombs in front of my former magazine (7 deads), in the Paris Metro... Programs like these might not be pleasant to admit. But there would have been many more victims had we not taken certain measures. Until now I felt safe in the States, knowing that the authorities could listen, and decide to take action rapidly. I am not paranoid about being "watched"... as we have nothing to hide. We are a democracy therefore not at immediate danger of experiencing a severe reduction of our liberties. Calm down. And say thank you for all the people alive which would have been dead. The furture does not show any sign that it's evolving in the right direction. So... more than ever, we need a security system that is strong. Very, very strong.
2
Suzanne, let me explain something to you about our American Left. They make these grand pronouncements about civil liberties because, chances are, no harm will come their way if they are wrong.
If their lives become endangered, they'll be the first ones in line demanding better intelligence gathering - to heck with the Constitution.
It's called hypocracy and extreme narcissism. I first noticed it as a young man. These folks didn't give a hoot about the Vietnamese -- until they were called upon to serve in the war. Then it became a huge issue.
If their lives become endangered, they'll be the first ones in line demanding better intelligence gathering - to heck with the Constitution.
It's called hypocracy and extreme narcissism. I first noticed it as a young man. These folks didn't give a hoot about the Vietnamese -- until they were called upon to serve in the war. Then it became a huge issue.
2
You are wrong about everything you say, including your spelling of the word "hypocrisy".
1
in "1984" George Orwell said "We know what no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me.”
First, no government ever takes control & power of anything only to relinquish it later on. Second, many a fortune has been made by spying on people and those who have (and will continue to profit from it) are not likely to give them up readily and without a fight. 9/11 gave the spooks that want to rule the world the excuse they needed to take over and no phoney legislation is going to change that.
So, I'll believe that that the US surveillance madness has been limited/curtailed when I see it. Just because the government says it, doesn't make it so.
First, no government ever takes control & power of anything only to relinquish it later on. Second, many a fortune has been made by spying on people and those who have (and will continue to profit from it) are not likely to give them up readily and without a fight. 9/11 gave the spooks that want to rule the world the excuse they needed to take over and no phoney legislation is going to change that.
So, I'll believe that that the US surveillance madness has been limited/curtailed when I see it. Just because the government says it, doesn't make it so.
16
Your last statement, all too common, is one of the best arguments against runaway government surveillance: what they actually do with the info, if anything, is not the point. The point is it is one more reason citizens do not trust their own government. Once that happens, they're up for grabs by the most persuasive and persistent nutcases.
2
What has never been explained is the fact that only meta data is saved, however if it is deemed necessary a warrant for the contents can be issued. The question is, if only meta data was captured, where are the contents coming from? The only conclusion is that contents are capturned along with the meta data. But, that's not what we are being told.
NSA is wasting Nation's money we can use this money in education /health etc
why NSA never release any document detail about its achievements etc ,
example where were NSA when Boston Booming happened, they got fail ...
this department should close down ... legislation is not the answer for this ..
i demand to close NSA ..
why NSA never release any document detail about its achievements etc ,
example where were NSA when Boston Booming happened, they got fail ...
this department should close down ... legislation is not the answer for this ..
i demand to close NSA ..
1
"After six months, the phone companies, not the N.S.A., will hold the bulk phone records — logs of calls placed from one number to another, and the time and the duration of those contacts, but not the content of what was said."
Then the government is still collecting our information. And instead of holding onto all that information themselves, the 5 or 6 major telecommunications companies are holding onto that information. The passage of this act changes very little as our information is still being stored by the government for six months, and then by the phone companies in perpetuity. Touting this as a celebration in the name of the fourth amendment is misleading.
Then the government is still collecting our information. And instead of holding onto all that information themselves, the 5 or 6 major telecommunications companies are holding onto that information. The passage of this act changes very little as our information is still being stored by the government for six months, and then by the phone companies in perpetuity. Touting this as a celebration in the name of the fourth amendment is misleading.
2
I've noticed a recent push on the interwebs to revise history and show favorable ratings of the previous two Bush presidents (64% for the first, 52% for the second) even though HW couldn't win a second term and W's second term ended with a job approval below 30%.
7
"The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, for the first time, will be required to declassify SOME of its most significant decisions, and outside voices will be allowed to argue for privacy rights before the court in CERTAIN cases."
"Some", "certain" - sounds like more window-dressing reform from Washington. As for our media, expecting a bit of clarification of the "somes" and "certains" is expecting too much.
"The battle over the legislation, the USA Freedom Act, made for unusual alliances. Mr. Boehner joined forces with Mr. Obama..."
Actually, Obama joining forces with Republicans has been de rigueur in Washington for the past 6+ years.
"Some", "certain" - sounds like more window-dressing reform from Washington. As for our media, expecting a bit of clarification of the "somes" and "certains" is expecting too much.
"The battle over the legislation, the USA Freedom Act, made for unusual alliances. Mr. Boehner joined forces with Mr. Obama..."
Actually, Obama joining forces with Republicans has been de rigueur in Washington for the past 6+ years.
4
I never believed that I would be part of a political group led by Republican Senator McConnell. I am an octogenarian who remembers the road to World War II and the cultural wars of the 196os vividly. I live in sight of roads that terrorists used in their nefarious work even before 9/11. My kids went to school in a town that lost seven fathers on 9/11. I know Reinhold Niebuhr who discarded his Christian pacifism when considering the Nazi threat to western civilization in the 1930s.
Instead the soupy ideologues of both the left and right have come together to create a political coalition that jeopardizes the power of the greatest democratic homeland. Ideologues get itchy when the political process is serene; their ideological juices can't stand prosperity.
Rand Paul and his father go back to the right wing isolationism of the 1930's and their leader Robert Taft who hated FDR liberalism and his interventionism while the Nazis took over Europe and Japanese militarists threatened Asia. Today's far left has its roots in the New Left of the 1960s who used the Vietnam quagmire as the reason for tossing bombs around colleges campuses. This is not Vietnam II.
Meanwhile a deadly and confounding non-state is turning the volatile middle east topsy-turvy with a powerful political, financial and political base that all the talented guests on CNN, Fox and MSNBC can't figure out and neither can I. Right & Left, have your day in the ideological sun.
Instead the soupy ideologues of both the left and right have come together to create a political coalition that jeopardizes the power of the greatest democratic homeland. Ideologues get itchy when the political process is serene; their ideological juices can't stand prosperity.
Rand Paul and his father go back to the right wing isolationism of the 1930's and their leader Robert Taft who hated FDR liberalism and his interventionism while the Nazis took over Europe and Japanese militarists threatened Asia. Today's far left has its roots in the New Left of the 1960s who used the Vietnam quagmire as the reason for tossing bombs around colleges campuses. This is not Vietnam II.
Meanwhile a deadly and confounding non-state is turning the volatile middle east topsy-turvy with a powerful political, financial and political base that all the talented guests on CNN, Fox and MSNBC can't figure out and neither can I. Right & Left, have your day in the ideological sun.
2
So now that phone companies will be required to store masses of bulk data, they'll no doubt be raising their rates to cover the cost.
4
For a good evaluation of whether these programs have benefits, and maybe they do, or whether innocent people are being harmed due to this spying, and I have not heard of any specific cases, please see NPRs Frontline American Terrorist. I do think the Patriot act has protected us but this is hard to measure, and I don't think it has hurt us and overall this is much ado about nothing.
I am more concerned that our security and our freedom are being used for political purposes without regard to the realities of the world. With that said, the new legislation storing records with the phone companies seems sensible.
I am more concerned that our security and our freedom are being used for political purposes without regard to the realities of the world. With that said, the new legislation storing records with the phone companies seems sensible.
1
"Repeated studies found no evidence of intentional abuse for personal or political gain, but also found no evidence that it had ever thwarted a terrorist attack."
Repeated studies? By whom? The NSA? We have no clue what's being done with all the collected data. This statement is beyond disingenuous. "Intentional?" How about some context for this equivocation?
Snowden's revelations showed that NSA employees performed surveillance on spouses and people they were involved with romantically.
Repeated studies? By whom? The NSA? We have no clue what's being done with all the collected data. This statement is beyond disingenuous. "Intentional?" How about some context for this equivocation?
Snowden's revelations showed that NSA employees performed surveillance on spouses and people they were involved with romantically.
4
If you believe the headline reflect the truth of NSA operations then I've got some ocean-front property for sale in North Dakota for you.
3
Call me cynical, but does anyone really believe this? The article itself states that the government will still retain broad surveillance power. So this is all just an act of pageantry?
4
Just curious what ever happened to the spying on Merkel, Bibi, EU, UN and industrial espionage against, believe it was, Airbus and other foreign companies?.
2
The usual. As long as the US promised not to do it to certain particular (and powerful) individual, the spying continued unfettered with the permission (and help) of said powerful individuals. Governments are the same all over the world, only to protect the rich and powerful and for what's in it for themselves.
1
and who of the 535 sent a thank you note to ed snowden for exposing the mess in the first place?
6
Unless I am mistaken, none of this applies to American surveillance of non-Americans. But maybe a coalition of the fed up governments of American allies will change that situation.
3
Why do the majority of us distrust our own government? Why do we believe those involved are out to do us harm? Isn't it fair to say that "government R us." And if we believe (if accurate) that we can trust those who manage telephone companies more than those who manage our "of the people by the people" institutions that's a serious indictment. Thus maybe it's time we do some self-evaluation regarding the values and ideology of those we vote for plus whatever else might be necessary to regain trust in an institution we install with our own votes rather than bypassing the issue in favor of outsourcing to outside corporations believing they will better serve us.
7
Instead of a long, boring "he-said-she-said" article about the political rhetoric surrounding this legislation, it would be nice to have a real news article that describes the substantive provisions of the legislation, how they differ from the prior version of the law, and what the practical impact is.
18
I seem to recall liberals going berserk when the Patriot Act was signed into law because it allowed, in their words, the government to spy on which library books you check out. The media demonized Bush/Cheney and made the usual right-wing accusations. We now know that the NSA is spying on everything and everyone with Obama's blessing. Add now drones to the list. And not a single peep of criticism from the Hollywood/Media axis. Hypocrisy at it's worth!
6
@Rich
Nobody went berserk when the Patriot Act was first passed and it was broadly supported which is not surprising given the atmosphere of the time after the September 11th attacks. There was only a single Senator in 2001 that had not voted for the Patriot Act and that vote of his probably cost him his office in the next election. That was Russ Feingold of Wisconsin.
Nobody went berserk when the Patriot Act was first passed and it was broadly supported which is not surprising given the atmosphere of the time after the September 11th attacks. There was only a single Senator in 2001 that had not voted for the Patriot Act and that vote of his probably cost him his office in the next election. That was Russ Feingold of Wisconsin.
6
If this program is meant to catch "terrorists" then why does the FBI have to go out and create them by inciting Muslim_Americans into acting out in cooked up FBI plots. If there are genuine plots to be found, then this Panopticon NSA machine should be keeping the FBI very busy stopping them. Let's get real.....9-11 and a bunch of these other events are all cooked up inside jobs that are full of holes re their official narratives. This whole NSA business is aimed at regular citizens, not terrorists. William Binney, the former NSA cryptographer who blew the whistle on this stuff before Snowden did, created a REAL program that actually looked for REAL terrorists and the whole thing fit into a 20x20 room, not acres of land down in Bluffdale, UT. You only need that kind of memory storage if you plan on enslaving millions. Wake up America.
6
The article doesn't mention the government's continued authority to obtain phone records of non-citizens. I assume that part of the legislation remains in place. That is why we were able to find out information about other heads of state, for example, Chancellor Merkel.
2
There is often intense criticism of massive legislation (TARP, Obamacare) that is passed in a hurry with a minimum of public discussion and oversight. So finally, post-Snowden, the Patriot Act has been examined closely and found to be severely flawed.
But now voices from Obama to McConnell cry out that our security is immediately threatened by limiting any of the powers that were either given in the act or taken in secret based on dubious legal interpretations of cloudy language in that panicked legislative package. McCain declares that we are no safer today than we were without the Act after 9/11.
Exactly. And we were no safer while our phone records were being swept up by the Patriot Act's "general warrant" (expressly forbidden by the 4th Amendment) that was used in secret by the NSA. They just did it because they could.
Spying on the innocent activities of decent Americans does not make us safer. And shame on any fear-monger who says it does.
But now voices from Obama to McConnell cry out that our security is immediately threatened by limiting any of the powers that were either given in the act or taken in secret based on dubious legal interpretations of cloudy language in that panicked legislative package. McCain declares that we are no safer today than we were without the Act after 9/11.
Exactly. And we were no safer while our phone records were being swept up by the Patriot Act's "general warrant" (expressly forbidden by the 4th Amendment) that was used in secret by the NSA. They just did it because they could.
Spying on the innocent activities of decent Americans does not make us safer. And shame on any fear-monger who says it does.
6
Snowdon 1
Republicans 0
Clearly a win for Snowdon but the real problem is a mindset that tells Congress that it can get away with anything. They usually do. The list of government boondoggles and misadventures from Vietnam to Afhganstan continues to grow while the people of this country are denied a single payer health care system, as well as denied meaningful education reforms from a government that only excels at imprisoning it's own people. This is outrageous, it is a democracy gone wild.
Republicans 0
Clearly a win for Snowdon but the real problem is a mindset that tells Congress that it can get away with anything. They usually do. The list of government boondoggles and misadventures from Vietnam to Afhganstan continues to grow while the people of this country are denied a single payer health care system, as well as denied meaningful education reforms from a government that only excels at imprisoning it's own people. This is outrageous, it is a democracy gone wild.
5
My Senator, Feinstein, is/was an ardent supporter of the bulk surveillance program. In fact I doubt it could have existed without her support. I believe you need to add "Democrats 0" to your post.
Here is her closing paragraph to me in a 2013 response to my contacting her and objecting to the NSA's programs. --Both parties sold us out. Personally I am in favor of Pardoning Snowden. None of this would have come out without his disclosure of these unconstitutional programs.
"Again, please know that although we may not agree on this subject, your correspondence is important to me and I value your contribution to the ongoing debate about U.S. national security programs. If you have any additional comments or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact my Washington, D.C. office at (202) 224-3841.
Sincerely yours, Dianne Feinstein United States Senator" 9/20/2013.
Here is her closing paragraph to me in a 2013 response to my contacting her and objecting to the NSA's programs. --Both parties sold us out. Personally I am in favor of Pardoning Snowden. None of this would have come out without his disclosure of these unconstitutional programs.
"Again, please know that although we may not agree on this subject, your correspondence is important to me and I value your contribution to the ongoing debate about U.S. national security programs. If you have any additional comments or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact my Washington, D.C. office at (202) 224-3841.
Sincerely yours, Dianne Feinstein United States Senator" 9/20/2013.
1
This is no democracy. This has long been a corporatocracy. Today more than ever.
Did you notice that 98% of the Senate Democrats voted FOR this bill? Did you also notice that well over half of Senate Republicans voted AGAINST this bill?
1
"... companies that have felt manhandled by government prying..."
OR, accessories to the government's violating of the US Constitution. (Keep it up, Times!)
This is clearly Rand Paul's moment, the question is: does he want to continue to be a politician, or does he take advantage of this moment and, now, become a leader. He has the American people squarely behind him; will that be enough for him to take on the Israel lobby? Or, will Paul have the sense and strength to realize that it is?
OR, accessories to the government's violating of the US Constitution. (Keep it up, Times!)
This is clearly Rand Paul's moment, the question is: does he want to continue to be a politician, or does he take advantage of this moment and, now, become a leader. He has the American people squarely behind him; will that be enough for him to take on the Israel lobby? Or, will Paul have the sense and strength to realize that it is?
1
Nothing will change.
First, there's a classified body of law that the public has no access to. Anything and everything can be hidden from the public by the classification system. Things can even be hidden from the vast majority of members of congress, the executive, and the judiciary by classification.
Second, there's no mechanism for making the NSA not do what it has the technical capability to do. This is an egg that cannot be unscrambled.
Finally, nobody who benefits from or thinks they might possibly benefit from NSA products has any interest in getting less.
This is all political theater to get the public to believe anyone in power cares at all about their rights. That's laughable. Nobody in power cares about anything but exploiting those over who they rule.
First, there's a classified body of law that the public has no access to. Anything and everything can be hidden from the public by the classification system. Things can even be hidden from the vast majority of members of congress, the executive, and the judiciary by classification.
Second, there's no mechanism for making the NSA not do what it has the technical capability to do. This is an egg that cannot be unscrambled.
Finally, nobody who benefits from or thinks they might possibly benefit from NSA products has any interest in getting less.
This is all political theater to get the public to believe anyone in power cares at all about their rights. That's laughable. Nobody in power cares about anything but exploiting those over who they rule.
6
I find it shocking to read in the times the statement:
"Repeated studies found no evidence of intentional abuse for personal or political gain"
Even according to the NSA's own internal oversight committee, employees break the rules thousands of times a year:
https://www.nsa.gov/public_info/declass/IntelligenceOversightBoard.shtml
If LOVEINT, that is so common an abuse pattern that it warrants it's own designation within the reports, isn't a manipulation of the surveillance system for personal interests I really don't know what would meet the Times litmus test for abuse for personal gain.
"Repeated studies found no evidence of intentional abuse for personal or political gain"
Even according to the NSA's own internal oversight committee, employees break the rules thousands of times a year:
https://www.nsa.gov/public_info/declass/IntelligenceOversightBoard.shtml
If LOVEINT, that is so common an abuse pattern that it warrants it's own designation within the reports, isn't a manipulation of the surveillance system for personal interests I really don't know what would meet the Times litmus test for abuse for personal gain.
4
A good first step, but-will the NSA find a way to comply without complying?
6
Bring back Edward Snowden and acknowledge he told us all what we had a right to know.
10
I hope the debate moderators will ask each presidential candidate in both parties if they will offer Mr. Snowden a pardon and invitation to return to the US when they assume office.
According to the senate tally, Senator Paul did not vote yea on H.R. 2048.
1
So finally Republicans see good in big government when it comes to what we have to say and think..... it's a start!
3
This scaling back really scares me. I want everything done to screen potential terrorists. I hope this does not lead to another 9/11.
3
The problem is that under the PATRIOT act each and every American citizen is predesignated as a "potential terrorist" and treated as such.
Is that really the country you want to live in?
Is that really the country you want to live in?
Google and FB track every move you make on the Internet, and sell the info to anyone who will pay, and no one raises a peep.
4
Google and Facebook cannot arrest, prosecute, incarcerate and execute you.
NSA CIA & FBI all use Google, FB, etc to know who to watch more closely.
NSA CIA & FBI all use Google, FB, etc to know who to watch more closely.
You do know that as long as the word "government" isn't involved it's OK. We the "self serving" people of America feel that we do not need to be governed. That is unless it suits are opinions.
Google and Facebook don't have police or taxation powers, and instead provide free information services. The government is a whole different animal.
1
We tried these "restrictions." The FISA court turns down less than 1% of all requests by the FBI and CIA. There is no over-view of the courts.
How is this anything but caving in to the powerful Military-Industrial-Intelligence Complex (MIIC)?
How is this anything but caving in to the powerful Military-Industrial-Intelligence Complex (MIIC)?
5
Pray not forget, our Government is not anymore “Government of the people, by the people, for the people”. It is run by special interests, domestic and foreign and the moral fiber of our congress as now at a historically low point. Unless we change our antiquated electoral system it will be getting worse and worse.
8
Hey sports fans, here's an update:
Edward Snowden 1
Mitch McConnell 0
Edward Snowden 1
Mitch McConnell 0
8
Don't forget to add your beloved Dems to your tally.
Get rid of DHS, DEA, TSA. Then when our nation goes on without crumbling as many predict, they will have no say on these matters ever again.
The fear mongering doesn't work anymore, GOP!!
The fear mongering doesn't work anymore, GOP!!
6
Typical! You must have forgot that the Democrats want the same thing as the GOP. But hey, it's always the GOP's fault! That's what the media tells you.
If you believe anything has changed at the NSA, you are a fool. The NSA will continue to do whatever they want because they have the goods on all those clowns in D.C. who supposedly represent us.
7
Our politicians name a bill authorizing the government to spy on its citizens the "USA Freedom Act".
Kafkaesque.
Kafkaesque.
8
“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
When the Hart-Rudman Report was published in Jan 2001, predicting a high likelihood of a major terrorist attack, our local discussion group predicted that the report was probably correct, but would be ignored in high power circles; but that rural America wouldn't be a target and a disaster would possibly be a Pearl Harbor wake-up call.
Read the report. It's all quite accurate in its predictions. Hopefully some will heed it this time.
Read the report. It's all quite accurate in its predictions. Hopefully some will heed it this time.
2
This is the appropriate downgrade of the surveillance and security policies, with the expectation that as the threats from terror groups continues to recede, these policies will also continue to shrink.
There is some national amnesia regarding this matter to when, why and how these security procedures became into being. The attacks that took place on September 11, 2001 were absolutely horrific as Al Qaeda's war on America was brought to our nation in the murder of thousands of completely innocent people going about their normal lives. American's supported these measures strongly because it was obvious - America was at war. Our country has a tradition in war time to pass extraordinary laws during war time providing the government with increased powers but we also have in that same tradition the lifting of such powers as wars end. The difficulty in this conflict is that it is not as black and white as the wars of the past and hard to pin down when war ends but the threat continues to shrink as the Iraq War has ended, Osama bin Laden has been eliminated, the Afghanistan War is coming to a close and terror groups seem to be more focused on the Middle East than on the US homeland which means the extraordinary war powers should shrink accordingly and I believe Americans have the expectation these powers will be completely lifted in the near future assuming the terror threat continues to ease.
There is some national amnesia regarding this matter to when, why and how these security procedures became into being. The attacks that took place on September 11, 2001 were absolutely horrific as Al Qaeda's war on America was brought to our nation in the murder of thousands of completely innocent people going about their normal lives. American's supported these measures strongly because it was obvious - America was at war. Our country has a tradition in war time to pass extraordinary laws during war time providing the government with increased powers but we also have in that same tradition the lifting of such powers as wars end. The difficulty in this conflict is that it is not as black and white as the wars of the past and hard to pin down when war ends but the threat continues to shrink as the Iraq War has ended, Osama bin Laden has been eliminated, the Afghanistan War is coming to a close and terror groups seem to be more focused on the Middle East than on the US homeland which means the extraordinary war powers should shrink accordingly and I believe Americans have the expectation these powers will be completely lifted in the near future assuming the terror threat continues to ease.
3
The flaw in your reasoning is when you say " America was at war." America's always at war. Hence the idea that these "powers" will some day be lifted .... as real as Utopian as Shangri La.
1
@abie normal
America is not always at war and you are forgetting that there is a historical precedent in the United States during war time in the passing of war powers during conflict and the repeal of war powers after the end of the conflict starting with the War of 1812.
America is not always at war and you are forgetting that there is a historical precedent in the United States during war time in the passing of war powers during conflict and the repeal of war powers after the end of the conflict starting with the War of 1812.
1
Remind me again, when is Edward Snowden's ticker tape parade?
8
@Mike
Never when you consider the vast majority of the information he stole and released had nothing to do at all with US domestic policies but were focused on US foreign policies and programs that have been a great aid to American enemies and problematic nations like Russia and China.
Never when you consider the vast majority of the information he stole and released had nothing to do at all with US domestic policies but were focused on US foreign policies and programs that have been a great aid to American enemies and problematic nations like Russia and China.
and when you consider the filtering and extensive editing he had done to not present any of the sensitive information you mention above, and the fact that he tried to address the problem internally several times before going public, then you ought to give the man his due.
@Mike
I would not hold my breath given the amount of unrelated classified documents to the domestic activities of the NSA Snowden stole and shared with journalists and possibly foreign governments.
I would not hold my breath given the amount of unrelated classified documents to the domestic activities of the NSA Snowden stole and shared with journalists and possibly foreign governments.
The article is titled: US Surveillance in Place since 9/11 Sharply Limited.
Well maybe a little.
But, the passage of the USA Freedom Act is not much of an improvement over the previous, hugely illegal and unconstitutional NSA metadata collections.
Per this bill which just passed, to obtain someone's private communications, you file a request for a warrant with the FISA court.
Which is a deceptive description that appears on its face to comply with the 4th amendment, but does not.
Because the "FISA Court" is not a court at all. It is an agency, or a bureau, or a department of an agency or bureau.
What it is not, is a court of law.
Requiring a warrant to obtain private information about someone, signed by a judge, would only comply with the 4th Amendment if the warrant were signed by an actual judge in an actual court.
But the "FISA Court" is not a court. And even though the chief justice of the Supremes gets to unilaterally appoint the "FISA Court" members, and is unlikely to rule that the FISA Court is in fact not a court, it is not.
The USA Freedom Act is per se unconstitutional, insofar at it allows searches and seizures absent a specific warrant signed by an actual judge from an actual court.
But don't worry.
Because the administrative bureau which "approves" these "warrants" is called the FISA Court, almost no one will notice.
Slicker than slick, and pathetically dishonest.
Well maybe a little.
But, the passage of the USA Freedom Act is not much of an improvement over the previous, hugely illegal and unconstitutional NSA metadata collections.
Per this bill which just passed, to obtain someone's private communications, you file a request for a warrant with the FISA court.
Which is a deceptive description that appears on its face to comply with the 4th amendment, but does not.
Because the "FISA Court" is not a court at all. It is an agency, or a bureau, or a department of an agency or bureau.
What it is not, is a court of law.
Requiring a warrant to obtain private information about someone, signed by a judge, would only comply with the 4th Amendment if the warrant were signed by an actual judge in an actual court.
But the "FISA Court" is not a court. And even though the chief justice of the Supremes gets to unilaterally appoint the "FISA Court" members, and is unlikely to rule that the FISA Court is in fact not a court, it is not.
The USA Freedom Act is per se unconstitutional, insofar at it allows searches and seizures absent a specific warrant signed by an actual judge from an actual court.
But don't worry.
Because the administrative bureau which "approves" these "warrants" is called the FISA Court, almost no one will notice.
Slicker than slick, and pathetically dishonest.
7
"Mr. Obama was quick to praise passage of the legislation and to scold those who opposed it."
We're talking about the same guy who has pursued more whistle blowers than any other president in history? Riiiiight.
We're talking about the same guy who has pursued more whistle blowers than any other president in history? Riiiiight.
4
I live in a War Mongering Police State, and I don't like it at all.
9
Disgraceful.
The mockingly sarcastically named "Freedom Act" does just the opposite, reinstating the very NSA domestic spy programs that this controversy is about.
Part time US Senator and full time Turtle Impersonator Mitch McConnell snuggled with Barack Obama and pushed through legislation that America simply does not want. Again.
It is time to vote all the bums out. In both parties.
The Obama presidency cannot end fast enough.
The mockingly sarcastically named "Freedom Act" does just the opposite, reinstating the very NSA domestic spy programs that this controversy is about.
Part time US Senator and full time Turtle Impersonator Mitch McConnell snuggled with Barack Obama and pushed through legislation that America simply does not want. Again.
It is time to vote all the bums out. In both parties.
The Obama presidency cannot end fast enough.
3
"Repeated studies found no evidence that it had ever thwarted a terrorist attack."
Chalk one up for the Harry Tuttles and Sam Lowrys of the fiction world of the movie "Brazil". The "bureaucracy" lost this one.
Snowden deserves the medal of honor.
Chalk one up for the Harry Tuttles and Sam Lowrys of the fiction world of the movie "Brazil". The "bureaucracy" lost this one.
Snowden deserves the medal of honor.
7
When Brer Rabbit asks you not to throw him into the briar patch...
For once, and it pleases my weary heart to say this, God bless the Congress, the House and Senate both.
To see them do the right thing by the American people does a weary heart, so frequently disappointed, good. God bless them both.
The best quote: "It's not the end," -- Senator Susan Collins. God bless them.
Now we've taken the message but want to shoot the messenger. Can we acknowledge that sometimes one must break the law to pursue justice? Can we acknowledge that this was the case with our Countryman, Edward Snowden?
To see them do the right thing by the American people does a weary heart, so frequently disappointed, good. God bless them both.
The best quote: "It's not the end," -- Senator Susan Collins. God bless them.
Now we've taken the message but want to shoot the messenger. Can we acknowledge that sometimes one must break the law to pursue justice? Can we acknowledge that this was the case with our Countryman, Edward Snowden?
1
I do not remember the last time a bill was passed over the objection of the Senate Majority Leader or of the Speaker of the House. I would like to see this occur when the leadership has not been backed into a corner.
2
Nice to see a bi-partisan Congress finally working together. The only problem is that they've jointly threatened national security. And next time something happens, who will they have to blame? Each other, of course.
3
No, Obama will be blamed.
This is a necessary and welcome first step toward curtailing the excessive and unconstitutional overreach of our government and intelligence agencies in the wake of 9-11.
But there is still much to be done. Our officials have yet to reign in the insane NSA practice of vacuuming up every element of our online activity. This is Orwellian in the extreme, and will no doubt be used in the future for political or personal blackmail.
Additionally, I have no comfort whatsoever that corporations should have access to any of this information or data. I trust unaccountable, sociopathic corporations even less than our government, and as our nation slides even more into a blatant oligarchy by the day, this concern becomes more crucial and alarming.
If our elected officials will not act we need more patriots like Edward Snowden to act instead.
But there is still much to be done. Our officials have yet to reign in the insane NSA practice of vacuuming up every element of our online activity. This is Orwellian in the extreme, and will no doubt be used in the future for political or personal blackmail.
Additionally, I have no comfort whatsoever that corporations should have access to any of this information or data. I trust unaccountable, sociopathic corporations even less than our government, and as our nation slides even more into a blatant oligarchy by the day, this concern becomes more crucial and alarming.
If our elected officials will not act we need more patriots like Edward Snowden to act instead.
3
I guess Rand Paul walks the walk despite coming off as a bit quirky.
I am very happy to be living in a slightly less Orwellian country this morning..
I am very happy to be living in a slightly less Orwellian country this morning..
All thanks to Edward Snowden. When will the cowards in Congress acknowledge this powerful fact? We are constantly overusing the word hero but it's appropriate in Snowden's case. Bring him home.
5
The fact that Senator Rand Paul supports a range of anti-civil liberties, such as his opposition to gay marriage, to women's rights, to immigration (including his support for an end to birthright citizenship), and other retrograde views, means that his grand standing in opposition to a reform of the surveillance programs is suspect.
A recent article analyzed why the views of Timothy McVeigh have gone mainstream in the right wing Republican Party, views that used to be purely fringe militia perspectives.
Anti-government paranoia is alive and well in this country. The hyped up panic about this program is one such example. Who is trolling all of this? An end to bulk collection of data, tools to identify the lone wolf terrorists that ISIS is recruiting aggressively in this country, tools to stay with the 21st century digital and cell phone era when terrorists and criminals move between communication devices -- these are serious reforms to the Patriot Act.
People (including the New York Times editors) should examine whether they have contributed to the current anti-government extremism that has such dangerous consequences in this country. This was a strongly bipartisan reform bill and has been very misrepresented.
A recent article analyzed why the views of Timothy McVeigh have gone mainstream in the right wing Republican Party, views that used to be purely fringe militia perspectives.
Anti-government paranoia is alive and well in this country. The hyped up panic about this program is one such example. Who is trolling all of this? An end to bulk collection of data, tools to identify the lone wolf terrorists that ISIS is recruiting aggressively in this country, tools to stay with the 21st century digital and cell phone era when terrorists and criminals move between communication devices -- these are serious reforms to the Patriot Act.
People (including the New York Times editors) should examine whether they have contributed to the current anti-government extremism that has such dangerous consequences in this country. This was a strongly bipartisan reform bill and has been very misrepresented.
2
Google is much more dangerous than the NSA ever was. They simply collect more Abd their use of the data is totally unregulated thanks to massive contributions to Obama.
Please remind us how many people Google has droned to death due to their illegal collection of data. And don't take me wrong, my comment is not in support of uber-corporations every bit as hideous as the government they own and operate.
Some of the long term Senators including Senator McConnell have tone deaf they have become to the public. This is a form of arrogance that is a death knell for a politician
2
Something interesting on CNN, before the approval of the Surveillance act, the CNN polls showed majority of people approve it. Then after it was approved this morning showing new polls that 75% disapprove, what a swing in less than 24 hours! How can this be explained?
3
Now what will the bloated "intelligence" industry do? Someone needs to put a tap on all their phones and read their emails. I think they are a clear and present danger!
2
“After a needless delay and inexcusable lapse in important national security authorities, my administration will work expeditiously to ensure our national security professionals again have the full set of vital tools they need to continue protecting the country,” Mr. Obama said.
Obama has now fully morphed into Bush.
Obama has now fully morphed into Bush.
5
It seems abundantly clear that there's time for a new majority leader election in the U.S. Senate; it also seems clear who should wear that mantle of leadership. Move aside, Mitch, your use by date has expired.
2
You may live in a post 9/11 Age but the Age of Terrorism has yet to expire. Politicians playing with Vital Assets and Tools seeking Political Leverage is unacceptable behavior. But I doubt anyone will be punished for it. In fact for their irresponsible and reckless stunts some of them will be awarded with additional campaign contributions- too sad.
2
Changes should have been planned when Mr. Snowden’s revelations became public. If the president got his hands on Snowden he would be chained in a solitary confinement cell when in fact he did this nation a great service. In the argument as to whether he was a hero or a traitor, this man informed the public and the law has been changed as the result of a public outcry. I don’t say that Ed Snowden should be given a medal but he should be granted immunity from prosecution so he can return home.
As to the effectiveness of our security programs the question is not how many attacks they stopped, the question should be how many and how badly would those attacks have been if we did not have an effective security apparatus. If we cannot have a security apparatus that respects the constitutional rights of our citizens, thus diminishing our freedom, the terrorists have been handed a substantial victory. On and after 9-11 who damaged America more, OBL or GWB? OLB destroyed some buildings and murdered 4000 plus Americans, GWB ran a secret government and made tortures heroes with renditions and black sites and horror prisons. 9-11 was an excuse for war in Iraq which killed 100,000 people and created ISIS. The Patriot Act made the U.S, a surveillance state and it is time get right with our Constitution.
As to the effectiveness of our security programs the question is not how many attacks they stopped, the question should be how many and how badly would those attacks have been if we did not have an effective security apparatus. If we cannot have a security apparatus that respects the constitutional rights of our citizens, thus diminishing our freedom, the terrorists have been handed a substantial victory. On and after 9-11 who damaged America more, OBL or GWB? OLB destroyed some buildings and murdered 4000 plus Americans, GWB ran a secret government and made tortures heroes with renditions and black sites and horror prisons. 9-11 was an excuse for war in Iraq which killed 100,000 people and created ISIS. The Patriot Act made the U.S, a surveillance state and it is time get right with our Constitution.
3
I'm sorry, but Sen. McConnell has proven to be an incompetent "leader" as he has problems in getting all of his own party members to follow his inclinations, let alone routinely getting the Senate to agree with him. He had better luck in getting the GOP members to be unanimous in obstructing the Democrats and President Obama. Now that he is responsible for actually DOING something, his weaknesses are apparent. The GOP clearly has a number of competing factions who disagree with each other. As others are pointing out, on the security issue those in the security establishment are fond of telling us that the programs are useful but usually cannot point to specific accomplishments. "Just trust us" cannot cut the mustard these days, for they are demanding that they know essentially anything about citizens but the citizens cannot find out what the government knows about them :-( The compromise of needing to ask the FISA court for a warrant is meaningless given how rarely that court denies a government request. The court is as useless as is the so-called 'Federal Elections Commission".
1
One of President Obama's final acts before he retired should be to pardon Mr. Snowden and welcome him back to his country not as a whistle blower but as someone who genuinely believed that he was helping the United States.
2
Since this broadly supported change in the bulk collection program arises from Snowden's illegal revelation of its existence, where is broad Congressional support for pardoning this patriot who ruined his life to let us all know about it.
2
I just wish congress would start labeling these acts to better indicate the purpose of the legislation. Instead of "The Patriot Act" or "The USA Freedom Act," call it what it is: The National Surveillance Act.
2
As we have seen our laws don't matter to the powers that be. Nothing will change except perhaps names of departments. Our gov't is more afraid of it's citizens finding out what they really do while in office than terrorists. Why else create such hatred?
2
I am very tired of fearful men running this country. I am also tired of this colossal waste of money that could be better used to support education, the 25% of our children who grow up in poverty, etc.
3
Just a question and an observation: If we had a GOP President, would this same repeal of NSA suveillance powers have passed Congress? I'd guess the answer is no. I also believe that an event such as the explosion of a nuclear device and the deaths that would ensue would cause a groundswell in support of surveillance that would make your head spin.
2
Missing from this article is a clear description of what this bill does. There are vague allusions to "new restrictions," the continuation of "robust surveillance power," "surveillance reform," "changes," "controls on government spying," and the "legislation's goals," but no clear, concise comparison of this bill to the Patriot Act. Exactly what surveillance of American citizens does this bill allow and how does it change the government's surveillance powers? Vague, vague, vague. Journalism 101 course grade: D
5
Good morning fellow Americans. Today we begin living under The Freedom Act. What did we learn by going through the fight to get here? Rand Paul grandstands against something that, acording to CNN, six out of ten Americans are for. Our elected officials are supposed to reflect our wishes. He most certainly did not. Also, we learned that he is irresponsible enough to make the comment that some people in Washington secretly hoped for a terrorist attack so he would be embarrassed. Oh, and that he already has a campaign commercial showing his grandstanding efforts. He could not have done a better job of proving he is unfit for the Presidency if he tried. He showed us what a true political opportunist looks like so I guess we do owe him for that.
2
Rand Paul embarrasses himself. He needs no help from people in Washington or elsewhere.
To my complete surprise and dismay I stand with Rand. Nicely done senator Paul. This is a big win for the south, especially southern conservatives. There are many issues the left and the right agree upon and can move forward with. Let's hope this is a model for the future.
1
Maybe portions of the USA Freedom Act, and the Privacy Act can help protect America with a stretch of the imagination. I doubt it.
So far, the policies of non-stop preemptive wars, and a buildup of military might greater than All Other Nations Combined, has brought America 'Trickle Down' Deadly Enforcement by Cop, and ten times the number of Prisoners held behind Prison walls than makes good sense.
Republican and Democrat Politicians replicate at will, having convinced the Salted Supreme Court that 'to Buy your Politician' is Constitutionally correct.
Americans have found themselves Slave to an out-of-control President and their Congress producing only half-measures designed to placate only.
So far, the policies of non-stop preemptive wars, and a buildup of military might greater than All Other Nations Combined, has brought America 'Trickle Down' Deadly Enforcement by Cop, and ten times the number of Prisoners held behind Prison walls than makes good sense.
Republican and Democrat Politicians replicate at will, having convinced the Salted Supreme Court that 'to Buy your Politician' is Constitutionally correct.
Americans have found themselves Slave to an out-of-control President and their Congress producing only half-measures designed to placate only.
3
The whole NSA data collecting program would give a free college degree to all Americans who go to college. Needless to say, it started up as a sidekick of the scam called democracy in which the rich and connected buy themselves posts in return for government contracts for friends-and-family corporations (not unlike in the case of installing more middlemen into health care with the ACA). Then it turned out, those who have access to it can collect data about everyone and use it against them, just in case. Your Skype conversations are now transcribed. Update to Windows 10 for free and you will give up even more privacy than with the jump from Windows 7 to 8. Your only protection can come from not being present or, if you have to, disseminate a lot of false information about yourself (which, by the way, is against the law under certain circumstances). Certain versions of Linux can also enhance your security, but not even US-made hard disks are hardware-bugged. I am not sure about Korean and Japanese hard disks, but experience suggests that if something can be done, it usually gets done, like getting rid of overpopulation by creating artificial pandemics.
2
We've not had a terrorist attack in our country for 14 years, so these security measures aren't necessary, so seems the logic of the privacy zealots. Most of the congressional supporters of repeal were elected since the 911 attacks.
I have no idea what so many have to hide? They x-ray our bodies in the airports in the name of security. Banks keep detailed records of our finances, but keeping phone call lists is invasive? Are some wanting to hide their activities behind a screen of privacy rights?
I have no idea what so many have to hide? They x-ray our bodies in the airports in the name of security. Banks keep detailed records of our finances, but keeping phone call lists is invasive? Are some wanting to hide their activities behind a screen of privacy rights?
2
What's the big deal about the 4th Amendment? If you have nothing to hide, we don't need it
A Kabuki dance, that's all there is. These organizations make their own laws. They are a government inside the government. Snowden revealed a lot and people still do not grasp what was revealed. It's not national security but personal security, power. Sure is nice to catch a terrorist once in a while to rationalize these programs but is this what is going on? Nothing will change except the words.
3
A culture dies when its maintaining ideology implodes. Now that both our media and our government are owned by corporate interests (yes, even politicians have relatives, friends, and yes, they invest their money), we are witnessing the systematic destruction of what the USA used to be. Social mobility in Europe surpassed the US already in 2005. Americans' health condition is the 28th, the welfare of mothers is 32nd, we have no retirement, no vacation, and some people think this is the best place to live in in the world. The only mortar, the Constitution, that used to keep our country together has become a useless script.
7
This is just a sop. Serious problems began earlier than 9/11; you should be asking questions like: "why does the government claim it has the right to examine my banking information without a warrant?"
One canned, brainless answer is "drug war", but face it: The government *created* the drug war. If your personal choices were not illegal (as with alcohol), and the drugs were OTC entertainment, regulated, taxed and produced using quality control (as with alcohol), there would be no drug war and very little drug marketplace criminality, just as there is no "alcohol war" and very little alcohol marketplace criminality.
Another, up-and-coming brainless answer is the "sexual trafficking war." Aside from the thing being "warred" upon being almost entirely a figment of the overheated imaginations of those who want to stir up the pearl-clutchers among us, the government's blatant and violent intrusion into personal, consensual choice -- most definitely informed -- is a pernicious corruption of what the word "freedom" means. None of this stops congress, of course, who is under the very, very mistaken impression that they "know what's best for us" or at least for them in turns of fetching the votes of the sexually repressed.
It will be a long, hard road trying to rein in government over-reach into the personal lives and affairs of its citizens. The first thing to do is research what you've been told. Looking at the real numbers for "sex trafficking" is a good way to start.
One canned, brainless answer is "drug war", but face it: The government *created* the drug war. If your personal choices were not illegal (as with alcohol), and the drugs were OTC entertainment, regulated, taxed and produced using quality control (as with alcohol), there would be no drug war and very little drug marketplace criminality, just as there is no "alcohol war" and very little alcohol marketplace criminality.
Another, up-and-coming brainless answer is the "sexual trafficking war." Aside from the thing being "warred" upon being almost entirely a figment of the overheated imaginations of those who want to stir up the pearl-clutchers among us, the government's blatant and violent intrusion into personal, consensual choice -- most definitely informed -- is a pernicious corruption of what the word "freedom" means. None of this stops congress, of course, who is under the very, very mistaken impression that they "know what's best for us" or at least for them in turns of fetching the votes of the sexually repressed.
It will be a long, hard road trying to rein in government over-reach into the personal lives and affairs of its citizens. The first thing to do is research what you've been told. Looking at the real numbers for "sex trafficking" is a good way to start.
5
I suppose these "restrictions" are better than nothing, but not by much. The fact that the phone companies will now store the bulk data, and it can only be accessed by the government after they seek permission from the FISA Court to do so, is pretty cold comfort. Anyone who knows how that court operates is aware that their track record is such that there's no reason to believe that they will turn down any request made by government agents. The standard appears not to be "probable cause" or even the reduced standard of "reasonable suspicion" but rather simply that the government says they need the information.
Secret courts issuing "secret warrants" to government agents, with the proceedings in that court not being subject to review in any future criminal proceeding brought against a U.S. citizen, is not consistent with the 4th amendment or the general principles of our constitutional republic. Anyone who imagines the use of these records is confined to the NSA for "terrorism" issues is naive. We already know that the DEA has tapped into these records in drug cases and has been allowed to withhold that information from criminal defendants. It's scary stuff.
I'm a strong admirer of the battle Rand Paul fought on this issue. Sadly, he fought it, for the most part, as a lonely voice in the wilderness.
Secret courts issuing "secret warrants" to government agents, with the proceedings in that court not being subject to review in any future criminal proceeding brought against a U.S. citizen, is not consistent with the 4th amendment or the general principles of our constitutional republic. Anyone who imagines the use of these records is confined to the NSA for "terrorism" issues is naive. We already know that the DEA has tapped into these records in drug cases and has been allowed to withhold that information from criminal defendants. It's scary stuff.
I'm a strong admirer of the battle Rand Paul fought on this issue. Sadly, he fought it, for the most part, as a lonely voice in the wilderness.
5
Most Americans will never have enough information to know where on the security/privacy continuum America really stands, and where they would want it to be given the threats and our potential defenses.
Our elected representatives and security-responsible federal leaders are so compromised by political ambition, and the risk to their careers of a security breach, that their statements are never helpful.
I want to hear from the judges who, with full knowledge of the constitution, the laws, and the actual day-to-day workings of these programs, are charged with making fateful daily decisions about what is legal, and what is not.
They can and should be able to tell us in general terms where along the security/privacy continuum America really is compared with where it has been in the past, and where, based on their understanding of threats and defenses, they believe it could and should be today.
Like Baby Boomers did with the more understandable
Bomb and Cold War, future generations will live with the fear of multiple undefinable security threats no matter how extensive our security measures, because America will always be the Great Satan to many of the the disaffected here and abroad.
Americans crave counsel from calm voices of people within the system, even from brave future Snowdens, who share both their love of liberty and their dread of attack. Let's find a way for them to get it.
Our elected representatives and security-responsible federal leaders are so compromised by political ambition, and the risk to their careers of a security breach, that their statements are never helpful.
I want to hear from the judges who, with full knowledge of the constitution, the laws, and the actual day-to-day workings of these programs, are charged with making fateful daily decisions about what is legal, and what is not.
They can and should be able to tell us in general terms where along the security/privacy continuum America really is compared with where it has been in the past, and where, based on their understanding of threats and defenses, they believe it could and should be today.
Like Baby Boomers did with the more understandable
Bomb and Cold War, future generations will live with the fear of multiple undefinable security threats no matter how extensive our security measures, because America will always be the Great Satan to many of the the disaffected here and abroad.
Americans crave counsel from calm voices of people within the system, even from brave future Snowdens, who share both their love of liberty and their dread of attack. Let's find a way for them to get it.
2
This is cynical corrupt triumph of form over substance. The incompetence of our national defense security intelligence infrastructure was exposed on 9/11/01 as reported by the 9/11 Commission. There was enough information intelligence available to detect and stop the attacks. But there was a dearth of qualified analysis and coordination.
Rather than accepting accountability by resignation, apology, termination or losing an election our leaders chose to make excuses and to frighten us. Kidnapping, torture, indefinite detention and targeted killings followed. Along with surrendering our Constitutional right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures without a judicially sanctioned reasonable suspicion or probable cause and our right to privacy to a cowardly so-called Patriot Act.
Preserving, protecting and defending our Constitution is the faithful sworn oath of every American President. There is nothing patriotic about the Patriot Act. Nor free about the Freedom Act. Neither has any credible connection to ever being able to detect or thwart any terrorist attacks on the homeland.
Civilians have been more diligent and effective than the NSA/CIA etc. A bipartisan failure of legislative oversight by a feckless Congress has not helped. Nor has a biased obsequious judiciary been effective in it's mediation role. Big Brother Obama has been spying on us in defiance of the Constitution along with targeting and killing American citizens without due process.
Rather than accepting accountability by resignation, apology, termination or losing an election our leaders chose to make excuses and to frighten us. Kidnapping, torture, indefinite detention and targeted killings followed. Along with surrendering our Constitutional right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures without a judicially sanctioned reasonable suspicion or probable cause and our right to privacy to a cowardly so-called Patriot Act.
Preserving, protecting and defending our Constitution is the faithful sworn oath of every American President. There is nothing patriotic about the Patriot Act. Nor free about the Freedom Act. Neither has any credible connection to ever being able to detect or thwart any terrorist attacks on the homeland.
Civilians have been more diligent and effective than the NSA/CIA etc. A bipartisan failure of legislative oversight by a feckless Congress has not helped. Nor has a biased obsequious judiciary been effective in it's mediation role. Big Brother Obama has been spying on us in defiance of the Constitution along with targeting and killing American citizens without due process.
2
"Bin Laden poised to strike" was the title of the security analyst's report on GW Bush's desk one month before the attack.
There was plenty of warning. What has never been fully explored is why Bush and Cheney chose to ignore it.
There was plenty of warning. What has never been fully explored is why Bush and Cheney chose to ignore it.
1
However distasteful and illegal Mr. Snowdon's actions, the very fact that what was hidden in the bureaucratic dark has now come into the light permitting abuses to be reined in while still protecting national security is certainly in the public interest.
Perhaps we ought to be thanking Mr. Snowdon.
Perhaps we ought to be thanking Mr. Snowdon.
14
Looks like Senator Mc's "Sing-Along With Mitch" program has come totally off the rails.
His whine that the vote for curtailing metadata oversight was a "victory for Snowden" clearly shows that he was more concerned with his viewpoint prevailing than protecting privacy rights guaranteed by our Constitution - not to mention the spectacular failure and ineffectiveness of the metadata program in the first place.
For the good of the Senate and the country, Senator Mc should step down from his "leadership" position -- he has clearly demonstrated that he is not up to the job.
His whine that the vote for curtailing metadata oversight was a "victory for Snowden" clearly shows that he was more concerned with his viewpoint prevailing than protecting privacy rights guaranteed by our Constitution - not to mention the spectacular failure and ineffectiveness of the metadata program in the first place.
For the good of the Senate and the country, Senator Mc should step down from his "leadership" position -- he has clearly demonstrated that he is not up to the job.
5
What has been lost in all this discussion of phone records is a detailed perspective on what other electronic records the government is collecting. I remember from the time of the Snowden revelations that the federal government is using its computerized snoopers to sift through every bit of data passing over the Internet. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. That translates to all of our emails, Web browsing, online forms, cell phone Internet use, skype, and Google Earth. This is not an exhaustive list. Private home security data passes over the Internet too. You know that webcam your dad has set up in his living room? Starting to feel like Big Brother to you? You betcha. I look forward to more coverage in The New York Times and other reputable venues about the current state of electronic government snooping, aside from the phone records, and the efforts to rein it in or do away with it.
8
Last year it was announced that a huge "metadata" center would be built in a suburb of our city. It is privately-owned and not associated with any "phone company."
Ostensibly, the data they collect will be sold to retailers so that they can tailor their sales to each of us. Their collection of data (how it's done is a mystery) is accomplished without a warrant.
So what data will they be collecting that will be of use to retailers? Of course it will be the websites we visit, the things we buy online. Is this anybody's business but my own? Will such data, personalized to ME, include whom I bank with, whom I communicate with, what I watch on Netflix?
Who can see my information? Anybody who pays a monthly fee?
This USA Freedom Act is simply another Patriot Act with yet another great-sounding name.
Let's make it illegal to collect any data on any U.S. Citizen without a warrant.
Ostensibly, the data they collect will be sold to retailers so that they can tailor their sales to each of us. Their collection of data (how it's done is a mystery) is accomplished without a warrant.
So what data will they be collecting that will be of use to retailers? Of course it will be the websites we visit, the things we buy online. Is this anybody's business but my own? Will such data, personalized to ME, include whom I bank with, whom I communicate with, what I watch on Netflix?
Who can see my information? Anybody who pays a monthly fee?
This USA Freedom Act is simply another Patriot Act with yet another great-sounding name.
Let's make it illegal to collect any data on any U.S. Citizen without a warrant.
9
Congratulations to the many people in this column who are standing up for our freedoms under the Constitution and a reminder that the fight to preserve those freedoms never ends. While the government and press have everyone focused on phone data, what about the Internet and our email?
6
"Repeated studies found no evidence of intentional abuse for personal or political gain."
Repeated studies by whom? Ed Snowden revealed plenty of abuse for just those exact reasons, and the Times should be ashamed of itself for printing the sentence above without qualifying it. Studies, by, presumably people at the NSA or other three letter rogue-government agencies?
The naivety of this paper is extremely discouraging. You're supposed to be the fourth estate, not a water boy for liars. Considering the papers abysmal record of cheerleading going into the last Iraq war, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Repeated studies by whom? Ed Snowden revealed plenty of abuse for just those exact reasons, and the Times should be ashamed of itself for printing the sentence above without qualifying it. Studies, by, presumably people at the NSA or other three letter rogue-government agencies?
The naivety of this paper is extremely discouraging. You're supposed to be the fourth estate, not a water boy for liars. Considering the papers abysmal record of cheerleading going into the last Iraq war, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
9
OK,Wink,Wink.
2
I agree with many who voted for the current POTUS, but disagree with him on this.
Maybe this will create a national forum for these programs for the 2016 election cycle, but then again, it may not....the media, the "4th Estate" could help, if they stop coddling the establishment that loves these control programs
Maybe this will create a national forum for these programs for the 2016 election cycle, but then again, it may not....the media, the "4th Estate" could help, if they stop coddling the establishment that loves these control programs
5
Given the amount of people whom willingly share their private lives over social media: facebook, instagram, twitter, etc... Why does our government need to collect all of our phone call metadata, text messages, and electronic communications?
I personally dont think its an accident that social media has exploded since 9/11.
I also think that the bigger issue that will need to be discussed is not the overreaching arm of government . But the overreaching arm of corporations. Google, Facebook, Twitter, Sony, Microsoft, Samsung, and Apple. Whom force users to accept EULA's that take away any semblence of privacy and voluntarily hand over that information to Government agencies or sell it to other corporations.
Do people pay attention to the fact that the only way to opt out of the programs is to basically not use cell phones or smart technology or the internet. Its truly disturbing.
I personally dont think its an accident that social media has exploded since 9/11.
I also think that the bigger issue that will need to be discussed is not the overreaching arm of government . But the overreaching arm of corporations. Google, Facebook, Twitter, Sony, Microsoft, Samsung, and Apple. Whom force users to accept EULA's that take away any semblence of privacy and voluntarily hand over that information to Government agencies or sell it to other corporations.
Do people pay attention to the fact that the only way to opt out of the programs is to basically not use cell phones or smart technology or the internet. Its truly disturbing.
2
We have not had a terrorist attack in ny since 911
Something seems to be working
It it ain't broke don't fix it.
Something seems to be working
It it ain't broke don't fix it.
2
The surveillance laws and the Patriot Act were all enacted in a panic after 9/11 -- at this point, the panic is past and some people are willing to think and realize that those acts and laws haven't protected us they've just infringed on our privacy. Most phone calls made by citizens are innocuous as are most citizens. Pre-9/11 a lone female FBI agent in Minnesota ID'd a man as a potential terrorist, he was but she was ignored and because the FBI and the other intelligence gatherers were asleep at the wheel pre-9/11 including Condolezza Rice and Pres. Bush -- there was an over correction -- now we are finally moving back into the realm of sanity in regard to intelligence gathering by ending the blanket approach to the phone conversations of citizens.
4
Folks please.
The new "limits" barely change anything except the physical location where the USA citizen data will be stored and the change touches SOLELY the USA domestic cell phone data collection -- and not the 2 dozen other personal data collection programs that will start right up again at the NSA. Yes. Really.
99% of what the NSA does with USA citizens' personal data is unchanged
This whole event was mostly spin, sanctioned by Obama, who is VERY vocally pro-NSA and for Rand who is running for president and rec'd epic amounts of media attention for standing for citizen "liberties". Quite a sham all around.
Net result -- Politically in Wash DC, everyone got what they wanted and saved face -- well almost everyone except McConnell who didnt lose much but showed no little power as the Majority Leader.
The new "limits" barely change anything except the physical location where the USA citizen data will be stored and the change touches SOLELY the USA domestic cell phone data collection -- and not the 2 dozen other personal data collection programs that will start right up again at the NSA. Yes. Really.
99% of what the NSA does with USA citizens' personal data is unchanged
This whole event was mostly spin, sanctioned by Obama, who is VERY vocally pro-NSA and for Rand who is running for president and rec'd epic amounts of media attention for standing for citizen "liberties". Quite a sham all around.
Net result -- Politically in Wash DC, everyone got what they wanted and saved face -- well almost everyone except McConnell who didnt lose much but showed no little power as the Majority Leader.
7
Requiring a warrant to merely mine telephone numbers and locations of calls is a mistake we will regret. The controls should have merely focused on the content, i.e., only require a warrant to get it.
There is far more info than that in modern cellular metadata.
Since we have no knowledge of what other tools the Intelligence Community has to protect us, it is not possible for us to understand the gravity of taking away this authority. Hopefully the privacy zealots are correct that NSA does not need to gather the phone information to adequately prevent terrorists attacks. Personally, I have some difficulty believing their privacy is more important than my security. In terms of the court, I hope it does not become a procedural jungle which eliminates the ability to make prompt decisions.
3
those who sacrifice liberty for security end up with neither
Yes, big brother is here and displaced our privacy and potentially our freedom.
Ironically, all of this palls in comparison to our open border policy - the clear and present threat to our country by way of terrorism and by diluting our society with those that have stolen citizenship and therefore have no appreciation of America and its values.
Ironically, all of this palls in comparison to our open border policy - the clear and present threat to our country by way of terrorism and by diluting our society with those that have stolen citizenship and therefore have no appreciation of America and its values.
3
This is a classic example of why this sort of program is bad. Once you give up a right to the government for any reason, it is always difficult to get it back. There is no evidence that this program has been effective, yet, look at the controversy when people want to terminate an ineffective program that seriously impacts their rights. Just because there is no evidence of intentional abuse is no justification for the government to want to retain these extraordinary rights.
10
One has to wonder just why the majority leader was so adamant about saving programs where repeated "studies...found no [none, nada] evidence that it had ever thwarted a terrorist attack." Well, surprise, surprise.
Absent any honest straightforward answers from the horse's...mouth, one is left with assuming, considering the ideology the majority leader advocates, only the worst.
Absent any honest straightforward answers from the horse's...mouth, one is left with assuming, considering the ideology the majority leader advocates, only the worst.
5
It will be interesting to see how people react when the US institutes a real surveillance state such as the Stasi which operated in the former East Germany. NSA collection of phone metadata is child's play compared to the Stasi.
1
Since it is now a proven fact that Edward Snowden did this country a great service, is not time to bring him back in from the cold?
7
“I think Congress is misreading the public mood if they think Americans are concerned about the privacy implications.”
If McConnel and Richard Burr think too few of us are upset over the outrage to our privacy then they can poll us. I believe it is they who are misreading us.
If McConnel and Richard Burr think too few of us are upset over the outrage to our privacy then they can poll us. I believe it is they who are misreading us.
11
I didn't know the NSA was collecting my phone records before Snowden, and I won't know now if they've really stopped. We need Snowden again.
5
It was public information that they collected this information. The law giving them authority was public and publicly debated. Snowdon did not reveal this. It was already known.
1
Edward Snowden took what would have been paranoid rantings of conspiracy nuts and PROVED that Obama was lying to the American people and that at Obama's request, the NSA was conducting sweeps of every single thing any American does on an electronic data device in this country 24 hours a day.
It was NOT already known. If it were known, there would be no basis to charge Snowden with revealing classified information, which is one of the charges he faces.
I know you worship Barack Obama, but try to be honest at some point in your life.
It was NOT already known. If it were known, there would be no basis to charge Snowden with revealing classified information, which is one of the charges he faces.
I know you worship Barack Obama, but try to be honest at some point in your life.
"So This Is How Liberty Dies...With Thunderous Applause" once again
5
National security of the U.S. against terrorism starts with foreign policy. Bad foreign policy in the past has caused this hatred against America. Furthermore, the past decisions of the previous two Presidents has made it worse by the poor decision of removing troops before the region was stabilized and not involving enough ground troops during the initial invasion, along with poor choices of administrators of the region. The people should not be burdened with a loss of privacy, rather the leaders of this great country have miscalculated many decisions or have been led by politics as opposed to pragmatic solutions and exit strategies. Our leaders tend to wash their hands of situations rather take responsibilities for their decisions.
Giving the government a powerful mechanism without checking that power will always be a horrible idea as it weakens the power of the people and the liberties they should have under any form of government.
National security is extremely important as there are unethical institutions and groups of people. When a leader decides to fix the laws within America that causes unethical behavior in business, then we will have a similar policy for foreign affairs. (Hold individuals responsible as opposed to institutions. One only has to look at the corruption in politics and the allowed behavior of certain greedy individuals in the banking sector. This corruption and unethical behavior is a worse terrorism for the people in America as a whole.)
Giving the government a powerful mechanism without checking that power will always be a horrible idea as it weakens the power of the people and the liberties they should have under any form of government.
National security is extremely important as there are unethical institutions and groups of people. When a leader decides to fix the laws within America that causes unethical behavior in business, then we will have a similar policy for foreign affairs. (Hold individuals responsible as opposed to institutions. One only has to look at the corruption in politics and the allowed behavior of certain greedy individuals in the banking sector. This corruption and unethical behavior is a worse terrorism for the people in America as a whole.)
1
All this suggests that McConnell was good at blocking things when he was minority leader, but he doesn't have the skills to actually run the Senate. Maybe he should give the leadership job to someone who knows what he's doing, and take it back when the Republicans are back in the minority. (If things continue like this, that won't take long).
4
>
The Devil is in the details. One will find very little change.
The Devil is in the details. One will find very little change.
1
I support our government's action here. This is America, and in America the government should not be allowed to spy on people, only corporations. I feel much better knowing that all my data collection will be outsourced to AT&T.
2
The powers of the US Government are far less than most countries and for those American readers who aren't aware, over 95% of the world's population lives outside of the USA.
I believe part of the reason for the fierce opposition to parts of the Patriot Act was the fact that Americans were lied to - again. It demonstrated that we just can't trust our government to be straight with us. Maybe if they had, things would have been different. I hope this is the start of Americans attempting to reassert a commitment to protecting their Fourth Amendment rights. As an aside, I am grateful to Senator Paul for having the guts to lead this fight when so many others were cowered by being labeled soft on terrorism or some other such nonsense.
1
What a dark day for freedom in America. I am ashamed to have voted for President Obama and for having naively thought he would end our wars and these police state activities. I can't wait to see what president Cruz will do with these capabilities. After spending the last 10 years calling democrats all manner of names like terrorists and criminals, they will surely have the tools they need to finish the job of destroying the democratic party should they ever win the presidency. We'll deserve it.
4
The US spy industry is big business. Eavesdropping on and foiling or catching bombers is not the issue. The privacy of every day folk is not the issue. The issue is who benefits from the lucrative contracts, and who pays and how much. It's all about the money.
4
It seems that the President is Commander-in-chief of the US military not Congress. So hopefully he will use his Constitutional authority to direct the NSA to continue doing what it takes to defend the nation, even if that rankles the privacy loony toons in Congress and the liberal media.
Of course the information could be used to spy on our businesses and bring forth a covert take-over, but we are assured the information won't be used for that purpose or are we. The media narrative prevents the discussion.
1
I love my freedom wish good luck to American taxpayers in this new democracy of electronic I´m all for it
Worse than the Patriot Act itself is the fact the only person who had the guts to stand up and blow the whistle on the illegal activities of the NSA was/is labelled a traitor. With all the talk about the spying and drone-browsing and broken promises of liberty, I heard no one thank Edward Snowden for revealing the truth. I am not an impetuous fan of Mr. Snowden but, I am a seasoned disciple of the truth. Our government should not be conducting covert operations against its own citizens. I thought we had reached that conclusion during the Church Commission in the 70's. As for the new "Freedom" act or whatever it is called, the only person who didn't rubber stamp that was Bernie Sanders. I don't think the American people know enough about it to give it the green light. I don't think Congress thought about it long enough to assure the American public it isn't Patriot Act #II. I fear we will all have to wait and hope another "traitor" shows up to tell us what is really going on.
4
The FBI has been surveilling random innocent American citizens for years using aircraft with fake corporate logos. These latest bills from Congress are supposed to limit mass NSA surveillance of innocent American phone calls and e-mails and texts, but does anyone really believe the NSA is going to stop what they have been doing for many years ? WHO is going to insure the NSA curtails their mass surveillance activities ? The FBI and NSA will most certainly continue their mass spying on American citizens. These latest bills from Congress are just a smoke screen to quiet the Constitutionalists and allow the NSA and FBI to continue their mass spying activities that clearly violate the 4th Amendment.
3
This entire episode is symptomatic of a country that lost its collective mind - not to say, values.
2
Poor Mr. McConnnell, he didn't get his way, so now he pouts. Too bad. Our government needs to collect data on situations that really matter, such as the failure of infrastructure, education, bloated elected officials salaries, lack of healthcare that is equal for all.
2
The massively counterproductive overreacting and overdistracting after 9-11 was stupid from Day 1. Let's hope that 14 years later a return to common sense has begun.
4
More protection of privacy will do little good to those cheering it on in a world where a weak president may as well have put up a sign saying "Open to bad guys" for the perusal of the likes of ISIS, Putin, Assad and Kim. Between those issues and the administration's pathetic weakness in foreign affairs, a staggering economy burdened by prosecuters run amok, government regulation growing like kudzu and incompetence in screening airports for would be terrorists the decline of the U.S. appears to have commenced. The Chinese century has begun and it won't be pretty.
Now that we have this charade behind us, could someone please reinstate the Fourth Amendment?
2
The government needs first to check whether people in high places are vulnerable to blackmail by our enemies. What is the difference between my home being searched, my letters being read without a warrant and the government reading my emails and track my surfing of the Internet? Private companies do this latter and like aggressive beggars follow and bother me with their advertisement for weeks. Our government should do better.
Wait. What? The government can read emails 6 months old? I have proprietary, confidential emails detailing intellectual property between my company and its suppliers and customers. How is this information being protected, if it is read? Are the brains that read it bring erased?
THIS is way more important to me than all the rest of this theatrical debate.
THIS is way more important to me than all the rest of this theatrical debate.
2
The irony is delicious. We condemn a man for being a traitor yet use his revelations as a tool to rethink our laws. Unfortunately for Mr. Snowden the laws will not be relaxed for his contribution to our civil liberties.
1
While concern for the bulk collection of American metadata is warranted, the coverage of the debate surrounding revision of the Patriot Act seems worryingly limited to this one aspect of the NSAs expanded abilities. Where is the discussion about XKeyscore, Prism, Dishfire and other programs revealed in Snowden's cache of documents? Where is the discussion of overseeing the NSAs access to GHCQ's trove of eavesdropped communications? The NYTimes would be doing Americans a service if they poked below the metadata debate and provided a real analysis of the Freedom Act, what it changes and more importantly what it leaves wholly unchanged.
2
What is going to happen to the billion dollar facility that is under construction in the Western U.S.? This facility was to have housed this data, in particular. Are the so-called private companies going to rent storage space from the NSA. The future of this complex will demonstrate whether this "curtailing" is just another myth designed by the intelligence community and supported by a president who loves to use armed drones. Why is any of this data still being gathered by any entity, anywhere. What is going to prevent the "FISA" court from repeating its past practice of blanket approvals. Who will be watching?Why are the majority of Americans so unconcerned about the loss of their fourth amendmant protections? As a result of this decision, will the NSA scale back its labor force or will the private companies pay their salaries, as probably has already happenend.
2
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." (Ben Franklin.) 'Nuff said.
2
Just cancel the whole thing.
4
Despite right warnings of its misuse, the security phobia of the Obama administration and its surveillance obsession do ultimately triumph over the values of liberty and democracy. Who says the Orwellion Big Brother was a mere myth?
5
hmmm too little too late.
having campaigned I stopped voting after the FISA debacle shortly after Obamas inauguration
having campaigned I stopped voting after the FISA debacle shortly after Obamas inauguration
2
Does anyone think the NSA actually stopped doing anything at 12:01am? I doubt it. This is an out of control agency, who believe themselves to be above the law. Only defunding will reign them in.
12
Our President considers himself above the law, why shouldn't his agencies?
And still not one complaint about Corporations maintaining data bases on all of us...Anybody needs to gather that info Im sure will hack them and could care less about the US Govt....Feel Free
7
The NSA is certainly spying on people in other countries, and has been doing it since a long time before 9/11, but is having a computer look for terrorists' phone numbers in US call records, after getting a warrant from a court, really spying?
Anyone who thinks these limits are significant or substantial is mistaken. The number of government agencies intruding into Americans personal lives and the methods and tools they have to do that is so great and effective that these restrictions are near meaningless.
4
This is laughable. The new bill, already signed into Law, is little more than a formalization of the powers previously granted under the lapsed sections of the Patriot Act, don't let anyone tell you any different. Now now there exists no renewal cycle, and the claim that the private sector are going to keep and maintain the records is nothing more than a smoke screen- it is an irrelevant (distracting) point.
Your Government can watch, will watch, and is watching EVERYTHING YOU DO. Our Government have let us down, our media have let us down, and more importantly WE HAVE LET OURSELVES DOWN.
How easily the sheeple are distracted by theater. Sorry my fellow citizens, but I am angry. I am angry at you (and I include myself), I am angry at my government, and I am angry at the media.
History will show the folly we have become. A sad day for democracy.
THINK.
Your Government can watch, will watch, and is watching EVERYTHING YOU DO. Our Government have let us down, our media have let us down, and more importantly WE HAVE LET OURSELVES DOWN.
How easily the sheeple are distracted by theater. Sorry my fellow citizens, but I am angry. I am angry at you (and I include myself), I am angry at my government, and I am angry at the media.
History will show the folly we have become. A sad day for democracy.
THINK.
12
All that's missing is the two way television placed in our homes that can never be turned off. London, England has 20,000 cameras watching every person all the time in the city. Is that what we want?
I couldn't agree more.
Just a few years short of 70 years, and never ever, would I have entertained the thought that our supposedly democratic nation could become a police state.
And the Americanhero of our time, Edward Snowden, who willingly sacrificed his own liberty, so we might know such, is considered a criminal.
How did we let get this bad ?
Just a few years short of 70 years, and never ever, would I have entertained the thought that our supposedly democratic nation could become a police state.
And the Americanhero of our time, Edward Snowden, who willingly sacrificed his own liberty, so we might know such, is considered a criminal.
How did we let get this bad ?
1
This congressional action is simply CYI much like the 1908 action that curtailed the law informant agencies ability to investigate crimes and make arrests after a sensational congressionally involved land scandal erupted to the embarrassment of the esteemed, and very corrupt congress. So what did congress do. They stopped the ability of the law to investigate congress. Nothing has changed except it has gotten worse. What made matters worse was this action endangered national security at the beginning of WWI when no US law enforcement had the authority (thanks to congress) to investigate the German led sabotage of American ships, and factories to help the English, French and Russian. Same deal today, only now Congress is endangering the country's security against Islamic terrorists as a trade off so their doings won't be listened to. You'd think they have something to hide?
2
This was a direct result of the chain of events set by Mr. Snowden's revelations. He may be an absconding fugitive, a traitor etc but his actions did bring about this major change (albeit small) to the post 9-11 security setup. It is ironic to see senators and house members, who had earlier denounced Mr. Snowden, vote for this bill. The various alphabet soup security agencies who had things going so well for them over a decade should brace themselves for more changes in the future which would not be to their liking. It is a big change in the mentality of Americans of all stripes who are questioning the surveillance state which was setup post 9-11. Also, this shows that the American public might be finally shaking off the fear/insecurity mentality after the 9-11 terrorist attacks that made them accept big brother restrictions on privacy so easily, that is good news!
3
Snowden deserves a presidential pardon and the Nobel Peace Prize.
2
WE are reaching the point where we have more to fear from our government than any enemy outside our borders. Snowden is a hero and should be allowed to return home now.
We have a government that works for the very rich who are only getting richer while the vast majority are only getting poorer.
Anyone who thinks the spying is anything other than our government for the rich keeping tabs on the rest of us looking for signs of revolt is a fool.
Anyone who thinks the spying is anything other than our government for the rich keeping tabs on the rest of us looking for signs of revolt is a fool.
17
Thank you, Chris. I do so agree with what you say re. "Anyone who thinks the spying is anything other than our government for the rich keeping tabs on the rest of us looking for signs of revolt is a fool."
So very thankful I am for Bernie Sanders. This longtime people server and protector of rights shows one more proof certain of his support of liberty and justice for all in his public reaction to this anything but 'free' or freedom protecting loose as a goose continuation of the anything but patriotic Patriot Act.
Ugh, what an evil greed and need for power over all mess we are in. Bernie is so correct when saying that it is time for a political revolt.
So very thankful I am for Bernie Sanders. This longtime people server and protector of rights shows one more proof certain of his support of liberty and justice for all in his public reaction to this anything but 'free' or freedom protecting loose as a goose continuation of the anything but patriotic Patriot Act.
Ugh, what an evil greed and need for power over all mess we are in. Bernie is so correct when saying that it is time for a political revolt.
Nowhere in this argument has any authority come near ruling the NSA work unconstitutional. The Circuit Court ruled the stature too loosely written, and suggested it would be rewritten. Therefore, and obviously, data collection is not unconstitutional. Q. So, where exactly is the rights violation? A. It's in the head of the beholder. If you can find a person not wearing a foil hat that changed their data life because of the temporary suspension, I'd love to hear about it.
Populist outrage created a bogeyman, raised it to "spying" and a "rights violation," and now the whole process has been rearranged without any substantive change. The NSA will do paperwork to get the data they need from companies that hold it. Personally I trust the NSA before I trust corporations.
The collation was a brilliant intelligence idea, uniquely American because we are the only nation capable of it. Those who'd toss it out are more interested the social camaraderie of the outrage hobby than national security.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat." Confucius
Populist outrage created a bogeyman, raised it to "spying" and a "rights violation," and now the whole process has been rearranged without any substantive change. The NSA will do paperwork to get the data they need from companies that hold it. Personally I trust the NSA before I trust corporations.
The collation was a brilliant intelligence idea, uniquely American because we are the only nation capable of it. Those who'd toss it out are more interested the social camaraderie of the outrage hobby than national security.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat." Confucius
7
Federal Judge Richard Leon ruled the program likely unconstitutional on Dec 16, 2013. Therefore it should have been shut down years ago. Or never started in the first place.
And other lawsuits have been tossed for lack of "standing". It was ruled that since the plaintiffs couldn't prove a priori that they'd been spied upon by a secret program, the suit couldn't proceed.
And other lawsuits have been tossed for lack of "standing". It was ruled that since the plaintiffs couldn't prove a priori that they'd been spied upon by a secret program, the suit couldn't proceed.
1
Agree. Likes of Facebook and Google are far more dangerous.
14 years...that's how long it took to forget 9/11, the day when we got an idea of what it might feel like to be around when the world ends.
The collection of meta-data into a database (as opposed to the content of the conversations) and the querying of that database with the oversight of a court and with the involvement of the legislative and executive branches, when weighed against the prospect of a 9/11 redux with WMD, is an acceptable trade-off in my book.
If someone frequently calls known terrorists abroad, for instance, I would not only want our government to know that, but I would also want our government to have the ability to query a database (one that preferably goes back years) to find out who else such a person is talking to - and who those people are talking to, and so on and thereby have the ability to reconstruct the web of relationships. Libertarians and some Liberals, however, fear our own government more than radical extremists who wouldn't flinch at the opportunity to take out one of our major cities.
The collection of meta-data into a database (as opposed to the content of the conversations) and the querying of that database with the oversight of a court and with the involvement of the legislative and executive branches, when weighed against the prospect of a 9/11 redux with WMD, is an acceptable trade-off in my book.
If someone frequently calls known terrorists abroad, for instance, I would not only want our government to know that, but I would also want our government to have the ability to query a database (one that preferably goes back years) to find out who else such a person is talking to - and who those people are talking to, and so on and thereby have the ability to reconstruct the web of relationships. Libertarians and some Liberals, however, fear our own government more than radical extremists who wouldn't flinch at the opportunity to take out one of our major cities.
4
Your book is your book. Call up the NSA and ask them to please record everything you do. My records, however, are private and as per the fourth amendment require proper warrant. You do not have the right to give up my constitutional rights because you have fear.
3
Hi, Amstel: Several studies show that massive data collection has not helped catch a single terrorist since this law was enacted. I am confident that terrorists cannot take us down. I am certain that our own government could, though. Our Founders knew from experience that civil liberties were critical to a free and democratic society so they enshrined them in the Constitution. Chipping away at them destroys our country from within as sure as any terrorist attack from outside forces. So does Citizens United and voter suppression and infringements on gay rights to marriage equality and women's rights to govern their own health. I understand your need to feel safe but constant, massive spying on our own citizens hasn't helped keep us safe and it puts us at risk of losing our democracy in the long run.
1
History suggests that people have more to fear from their
own governments than from terrorists, freelance criminals
or even declared, belligerent enemies.
Which is why there was such resistance to even establishing
a federal government and such efforts extended to ensure that
its powers were *limited*.
You might want to acquaint yourself with the terrifying track record
of government "democide" before you decide to hand over all power
to the state:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
own governments than from terrorists, freelance criminals
or even declared, belligerent enemies.
Which is why there was such resistance to even establishing
a federal government and such efforts extended to ensure that
its powers were *limited*.
You might want to acquaint yourself with the terrifying track record
of government "democide" before you decide to hand over all power
to the state:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
1
The patriot act had sunset clauses that had to be renewed to keep. If the senate did not renew that would have been curtailing. This is the NYT dressing up a pig, and calling it a grand champion.
5
Can there be any lingering doubt that we have a government at war with its own people? I am disgusted by the President and ashamed at having voted for him.
6
Don't be ashamed that you voted for President Barack Obama. That's what the Republicans want you to feel. Would you have preferred Bush III (John McCain), Bush IV (Mitt Romney), Bush V (Jeb Bush)? Those are all bad choices.
1
Don't feel bad; I supported him twice, much to my regret.
Nothing more than an excuse to violate several fundamental principles of our constitutions and law, this was a national security policy, like much of the homeland security airport nonsense that has recently been proven ineffective and a waste of billions, that did nothing to protect us, and certainly nothing worth handing the government power to survey its citizens indiscrimately. Shame on us for allowing it to happen in the climate of fear and cowardice. So much overraction: a needless war that killed hundreds of thousands and wasted trillions, a surveillance system that dwarfs anything imaginable, a home security apparatus that actually increased travel related deaths (more people died from car accidents from increased driving to avoid getting on planes and dealing with pointless security checks). Underlines just how irrational and stupid our government and our people are capable of when driven by fear and nonsense. I can't imagine what we will do if some actual real threat to our existence materialized.
5
Shame on us, indeed. The Patriot Act and the suspension of habeus corpus at Guantanamo Bay were knee jerk reactions stoked by the fearmongers and hawks. We, the people, folded like cheap chairs and continue, even now, to allow the government to keep people at G Bay indefinitely, without formal charges, without access to U.S. courts or any of their protections--because we are "afraid" to bring them stateside. Afraid? It makes me ill. Our Founders would roll over in their graves. First they came for the terrorists, then they came for people involved in Occupy Wall Street, how long until the come for you and me? Fear is a dangerous emotion.
Reality check look brite side least they have jobs for useless security failed to detect weapons at air ports. Every one needs a job even if not qualified to do the job. Another prime example of spending out of control with reality. But congress just keeps adding trillions to our kids debt ceiling allowing president to spend spend spend.
4
I would sooner eat a live frog than vote for a Republican, but I am sending $50 to the Rand Paul for President fund.
6
Bernie Sanders voted against the Patriot Act everytime it came up for a vote.He also is the only person in Congress who opposed the new "Son- of -Patriot Act" passed yesterday.
1
67 to 32 - please provide the names of those who voted for and against!
5
Go to senate.gov and click on the Votes tab. Details of votes usually post 1-2 hours after each vote.
1
The fabulously wealthy 1% know that the revolution is coming. and with so many more of us against them, they also know that universal surveillance--backed by a police state--is the only way they can hold onto their power and their wealth. Hard times are coming. I'm sticking around because I can't wait to see the heads of the 1% roll.
8
President Obama is a progressive Democrat and former Constitutional Law professor. He is not at all pre-disposed to support this program. The only reason he supports it is because he sees it as an essential part of our National Security program.
2
Progressive democrats can enjoy the power of the state as much as anyone else WHEN THEY ARE IN POWER
Isn't ironic that the people advocating for the protection of their privacy, are many of the same people advocating for the right to know.,,
In other words, you do not have the right to know my Business.,..but I have the "right" to know your Business...
In other words, you do not have the right to know my Business.,..but I have the "right" to know your Business...
1
The Atlantic reports tonight on the massive failures of the TSA. Undercover agents were able to sneak weapons past screeners in 95% of the cases. If we extrapolate from the government we can see to the dark side of the government that cannot be examined, it's not hard to image that a lot of money is being wasted in the NSA purportedly keeping us safe. More likely it is lining the pockets of many defense contractors. Our government is increasingly out of touch and out of reach. We need to change this in 2016.
11
Too little too late. The industrial-surveillance complex is already an entity with a life of its own, well defined sales channels and revenue streams mature enough to allow for forecasting and (why not?) even securitization. This means it's not going to go away no matter how Congress tries to legislate against it. The right people have found the right way to make the right kind of money from spying on Americans and people all over the world. They're not going to let a bunch of clueless politicians threaten their livelihood.
9
We have not had an attack on American soil since 911, so the government must have been doing something right.
4
Boston Marathon bombing? The one where the Russians tried to tell our government that Tsarnaev the elder was a threat?
9
With the exception of the Boston bombing the only plots were fouled by the perpetrators themselves. The Boston brothers probably only spoke in private and were undetectable.
1
Check your reasoning, Paul. Studies show that this invasive program has not helped us identify and capture one terrorist. Not one. Meanwhile, there HAVE been attacks on American soil since 9/11 and we HAVE lost civil liberties. For what? To pump up the military-industrial-corporate contractor complex. Eisenhower was right. Follow the money.
1
But the "special federal court" ALWAYS approves more surveillance, so what's the difference?
4
I can't say that I am particularly reassured by the fact that every corporation and their hackers will continue to have access to my data and only the Feds will have to go through a third party to gain access.
6
The USA just became a better place to live. But one imagines that the NSA will find a way to subvert the law. It is very encouraging to watch the legal system actually function for the betterment of the whole country. That is what we see here with this new law.
Dr. Rand Paul is shaking Washington and waking the nation in so doing by his fearless oratory and superb articulation. Dr. Paul stands out of the Republican pack. It does not matter that from now until election day, a new Republican will pop up wanting to fulfill their lifetime ambition to become the incumbent of the white house. Dr. Paul has ceased the torch of liberty, equality and leadership of the Republican party and is running with it. Stand with Rand is gaining steam by the hour and post 911 Bushism is finally getting buried by the minute and those who continue to believe in it will find themselves clustered at the bottom in single digits. Americans have no patience for fear mongers and war mongers. A new vision and direction for America is on the horizon.
2
Though I'm glad the program has been ended, let's cut the lies about "didn't catch any terrorists"; no one piece of intelligence "catches terrorists"; it's always a lot of work and a lot of sources. Now they'll have to do legitimate work to intrude on privacies instead of merely querying a database.
1
One day Mitch is defending the Constitution and the next he is wanted to strip out safeguards to privacy.
2
In an honest state, this would be called the Edward Snowden Act.
6
You can't say you are Free and have a Constitution when Govt is taking those Rights and Freedoms away. Govt's job is to Serve it's people and not treat them like "suspects". Billions to Trillions of dollars are spent on this spy program that does not work and has never worked.
3
Obviously this country needs another 911 to wake themselves up to the dangers of domestic and foreign terrorists.
Being that I predicted 911 two weeks before it happened, and the failings of the Iraq "regime change", and the rise of ISIS, I will tell my next prediction:
Disable our power grid in the right spots which creates a widespread power outage across several cities (enviros have made this weakness possible), after a few days people will become anarchic, chaos/looting will happen, then some domestic terrorists will strike targets of their choice, within the blacked out areas, using AK's or M16's to "terrorize" our society. Law enforcement will not be very responsive nor effective initially.
And don't even think your smart phones will work during a power outage, you will not have internet access either.
There you go, my next prediction.
Being that I predicted 911 two weeks before it happened, and the failings of the Iraq "regime change", and the rise of ISIS, I will tell my next prediction:
Disable our power grid in the right spots which creates a widespread power outage across several cities (enviros have made this weakness possible), after a few days people will become anarchic, chaos/looting will happen, then some domestic terrorists will strike targets of their choice, within the blacked out areas, using AK's or M16's to "terrorize" our society. Law enforcement will not be very responsive nor effective initially.
And don't even think your smart phones will work during a power outage, you will not have internet access either.
There you go, my next prediction.
Summary of who/what Senator McConnell was opposing:
388 members of the House,
67 U.S. Senators,
the President,
a decision from a U.S. Circuit Court that a portion of the Patriot Act was unconstitutional,
findings of multiple reviews that bulk collection of phone records had never stopped an act of terrorism after 10 or more years of bulk collection.
Summary of what Senator McConnell was supporting:
the fear-mongering, security-industrial complex.
Some "leadership".
388 members of the House,
67 U.S. Senators,
the President,
a decision from a U.S. Circuit Court that a portion of the Patriot Act was unconstitutional,
findings of multiple reviews that bulk collection of phone records had never stopped an act of terrorism after 10 or more years of bulk collection.
Summary of what Senator McConnell was supporting:
the fear-mongering, security-industrial complex.
Some "leadership".
3
What a shame for our nation-- and an embarrassment for President Obama and the Congress-- that it took this long for us to begin clawing back some liberty lost in the rush to panic and profit from our irrational but national fear of "terrorism".
2
I'm a little surprised and somewhat disappointed in this paranoid fear of government. Who is the government that everyone seems to be afraid of? It's made of ordinary citizens that go home to families like every one of us. We are a country of over 300 million people how do they expect our government to protects us from terrorist that are willing to do anything to inflict pain and suffering on our citizens without giving it the tools it needs to do that job?
The paranoia that I'm hearing suggests that people are being dragged out of their homes for questioning about something that they may have said over the phone or texted. As far as I know this hasn't happened to any of our citizens. We have an electoral process that gives us freedom to vote, we have 24 hour news coverage and social technologies that people put every nuance of their lives out in public and all I hear is concern the government is looking at aggregate phone contacts to find connections to terrorists.
This is the age of mass communication. The government that has been elected to protect us needs the tools to do that job.
The paranoia that I'm hearing suggests that people are being dragged out of their homes for questioning about something that they may have said over the phone or texted. As far as I know this hasn't happened to any of our citizens. We have an electoral process that gives us freedom to vote, we have 24 hour news coverage and social technologies that people put every nuance of their lives out in public and all I hear is concern the government is looking at aggregate phone contacts to find connections to terrorists.
This is the age of mass communication. The government that has been elected to protect us needs the tools to do that job.
5
This article doesn't do something very simple, but very crucial -- tell me who voted which way. There's no link to a tally of the vote.
3
Now, what about Mr Snowden?
3
I look back with dismay at the time when millions of Americans were against the Patriot Act when it was first proposed and passed, and yet the media did not pay attention to our voices. Then we marched against the invasion of Iraq and the potentially criminal motives for it, and the media did not pay attention to our voices. Then Snowdon exposed government overreach and millions of us said 'told you so,' and still the media did not pay attention to our voices. And now Congress has decided that the government went too far all those years ago and so many of us are saying 'where the heck were you all those years ago?' It's because the media didn't pay attention to our voices; they still aren't.
12
Here in L.A, . the LAPD has this huge Big Brother center, just finished a couple of years ago. An undercover cop can snap a pic of you with his iphone and transfer it to Scotland Yard, and, one has to imagine, anywhere else on Earth. This is the LAPD! Can you imagine what the FBI, CIA, military etc. can do? I doubt this bill really means anything to those who run these programs, and know they won't be caught spying until WAY AFTER the fact.
1
Very few have fought for our privacy, like Sen Paul. And I'm a Democrat! Have not heard diddly from the either declared or prospective Democrat candidates. There is no reason why this should continue - as it has not provided one - single - case of terrorism. But a couple GS14s indicated a few years back that: (a) it did allow the Government to spy on folks most intimate moments, and (b) it had been going on before it was allowed, as a black program. For nearly three decades. It is time to reassess where are resources are going - Defense, Intel, and Homeland Security - all greater than the next 24 developed nations combined - all need something more than a haircut. How about a number 1 razor? Sen McCain: it is not the US job to be the world's policeman - particularly when we have so many infrastructure needs here at home. It is time for people to rise up and say - No More.
2
I have no confidence in government institutions. The Secret Service is a joke. The TSA performance is horrific. The IRS is hacked. And we are in the process of losing two major wars.
4
Most of the emphasis and the headlines have been about the monitoring of email and phone calls -- and almost NONE have been about the loss of habeas corpus (which the Founding Fathers fought and bled for) and rendition. Rendition is an obscenity waged against the U.S. Constitution and has to go. If the feds really want to hold someone, let them show cause and get a warrant -- then let them either charge the person and make their case, or let him go. That's how the constitution works. Getting a warrant worked before, and it'll work now. Nuts to all those hotheads who think habeas corpus is expendable; they left their brains under the bed. These are *not* the people I want in government! I want my civil liberties back. And I can see Tom Paine and John Adams supporting me on that, among others.
4
It's all good and fine to oppose the NSA Surveillance Program when you're simply going about your routine life in Toledo or New York or Oakland and not sitting in President Obama's chair and hearing those CIA terrorism briefings every single morning.
5
Would you say George Bush had same situation??
Of course you're correct that it must be difficult to be in the seats of power... but our elected leaders must balance security and liberty, that is part of the job they signed up for... and they've been completely mismanaging that balance.
"Terrorism" is close to the bottom on a rational list of real and present dangers facing our American populace. Where are the wars on crumbling infrastructure, distracted driving, gun safety, industrial accidents, etc. etc. etc? President Obama should be able to listen to the CIA briefings and then move on to vastly more pressing problems.
"Terrorism" is close to the bottom on a rational list of real and present dangers facing our American populace. Where are the wars on crumbling infrastructure, distracted driving, gun safety, industrial accidents, etc. etc. etc? President Obama should be able to listen to the CIA briefings and then move on to vastly more pressing problems.
3
Personally I think those surveillance programs won't end. Think about it. It's all privatized. Done in the dark and it will continue. The infrastructure is in place. The essence of such structures, and corporations, is just to get bigger. With the labor force as it is, few jobs to be had, fear and fear pushed down our throats, I expect further political manipulations from our elites to solidify their positions. To belive anything else is to have amnesia.
7
About time... now can we deal with the other 800 lb elephant in the room, the TSA? It's even more useless than the NSA's phone snooping.
3
Do they really think that a new name will be enough to deceive the Americans? USA Freedom Act is another illegal surveillance program letting the government spy on us.
5
Yes. Americans will be deceived. It's what we're good at.
1
You know, I am of two minds on this -- but as Annie Ross once observed, "two heads are better than one."
When I was about sixteen (I am now 68) my views would have been called "libertarian," but for the fact that the word hadn't even come into the political lexicon back then. I would never call myself a "Libertarian" today for the very basic fact that I have come to loathe Libertarians -- note my subtle shift from the lower case "l" in the first sentence to the upper case "L" in this one. What I have learned since the days of my all-or-nothing adolescent individualism is that "Libertarianism" carries with it a whole wagon train if ideological baggage -- and again, note my anything-but-subtle use of the phrase "wagon train."
Sure, government poses a threat to personal liberty, but not so great a threat as that posed by private business -- and I include both the "Mom and Pop" and the corporate sectors. But the greatest threat to personal liberty is not that posed by government or by private business. The greatest threat to personal liberty is that posed by what we euphemistically call "civil society."
When I was about sixteen (I am now 68) my views would have been called "libertarian," but for the fact that the word hadn't even come into the political lexicon back then. I would never call myself a "Libertarian" today for the very basic fact that I have come to loathe Libertarians -- note my subtle shift from the lower case "l" in the first sentence to the upper case "L" in this one. What I have learned since the days of my all-or-nothing adolescent individualism is that "Libertarianism" carries with it a whole wagon train if ideological baggage -- and again, note my anything-but-subtle use of the phrase "wagon train."
Sure, government poses a threat to personal liberty, but not so great a threat as that posed by private business -- and I include both the "Mom and Pop" and the corporate sectors. But the greatest threat to personal liberty is not that posed by government or by private business. The greatest threat to personal liberty is that posed by what we euphemistically call "civil society."
2
As a Democrat, I have to congratulate that narrow libertarian strain in the GOP under the leadership of Rand Paul for the courage to speak out despite getting hammered by many in his party.
Democrats need to take notice and President Obama should use the rest of his time in office to realistically deal with the excesses of the post 9/11 period. The NSA can be helpful in suppressing terrorism but the leadership of this country must ask, "But at what cost?"
Democrats need to take notice and President Obama should use the rest of his time in office to realistically deal with the excesses of the post 9/11 period. The NSA can be helpful in suppressing terrorism but the leadership of this country must ask, "But at what cost?"
4
This seems to be on balance a move in the right direction. Our entire security and law enforcement establishment from the top down, have taken way to much power unto themselves in the last 15 years. It's time to push back and this is a start.
4
While on general principles I would never support Rand Paul, I applaud his efforts against the Patriot Act, a sad relic from the Cheney/Bush national security state. That Majority Leader McConnell would say that this revised act "takes away one more tool" shows how he and his ilk have no real concept of what truly defending the Constitution is about.
2
I believe true freedom in life, comes only from complete transparency. To hide something, is to not be free.
Health and voting records are best kept confidential, of course.
How have innocents been harmed by the NSA program? I can think of nothing.
This discussion must continue, we cannot let our guard down as a nation.
Health and voting records are best kept confidential, of course.
How have innocents been harmed by the NSA program? I can think of nothing.
This discussion must continue, we cannot let our guard down as a nation.
2
With passage of the "Freedom Act", all the phone companies are under the direct influence of the federal government and their traditional relationship of assisting the government is now formally recognized. All the phone companies are now an extension of the government much like one might find in a communist nation. I make particular note of the fact that those phone companies made no attempts to protect the privacy and security of all Americans phone records as they fully cooperated very secretly with the government to conceal the cooperation and records dragnet. The phone companies also kept the dragnet of records secret and did not advise the public of the government surveillance. We the people paid the phone companies for the phone service with a reasonable expectation of privacy and loyalty to the paying customers. The phone companies made billions from the very public they betrayed to the government. I propose that a powerful assembly of enterprising lawyers institute a class action lawsuit on behalf of all Americans to retrieve all monies paid to those phone companies for failure to protect the rights to privacy and service to all customers. Our phone records were divulged to the federal government, specifically the military spy apparatus known as the N.S.A.
I paid almost 9,000 dollars for my Verizon phone service in the last 12 years.
I want it back.
I paid almost 9,000 dollars for my Verizon phone service in the last 12 years.
I want it back.
5
Maybe this will give pause to the phone companies about cooperating with the government in the future.
Why did not the Times report this as: 'Senate votes to continue Mass Surveillance'?
This is precisely what they did. Calling it: 'Reining In' - with the records now with the telephone companies but easily accessible via the sham FISA 'Court' - is a deceitful sham.
This is precisely what they did. Calling it: 'Reining In' - with the records now with the telephone companies but easily accessible via the sham FISA 'Court' - is a deceitful sham.
24
Judging by these comments, NYT readers are outraged that the government was spying on them, but are all fine and dandy with the fact that the telecom giants have been doing the same thing. Now the government has to go to Court to get permission, but the telecoms are still free to continue to spy away as much as they'd like and people are here celebrating this as some kind of victory for privacy. You people are fools.
8
Read at PBS "With or Without The Patriot Act,Here's How the NSA Can Still Spy On Americans" June 1,2015 Then Watch the Related Film: "United States of Secrets" MOST MOST Very Interesting! I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THIS!
1
A lot of commenters have rightly mentioned Edward Snowden, without whom this bill would not have been passed. He has acted selflessly for freedom from Big Brother, but it is interesting to me that the Times did not mention him, unlike the Guardian, which made the connection. The Times has also marginalized Bernie Sanders , but it's interesting that the crowds for him in Iowa are bigger than for anyone else. Like Snowden, he is addressing important issues that others are side-stepping. I don't think the Times even covered his announcement to run.
16
Many of the lawmakers who voted to approve the spying legislation in 2001-02 are now congratulating themselves for voting to curtail it. I am quite liberal in most of my views, and dubious about the uses to which government will put some of the information gathered, but I think this move, while politically a no brainer, is actually quite foolish. We have had no major attack since 9/11. No Charlie Hebdo, no London bus bombs, no subway bombs no truck bombs. Are all the commenters here sure that the information gathered via these invasive channels has had nothing to do with this remarkable fact?
The minute another major attack occurs, those congratulating themselves today will vote all the same laws back into effect, and they will be more invasive. I am not willing to sacrifice freedom for security, but I am willing to sacrifice a good deal of privacy.
The minute another major attack occurs, those congratulating themselves today will vote all the same laws back into effect, and they will be more invasive. I am not willing to sacrifice freedom for security, but I am willing to sacrifice a good deal of privacy.
3
Today's Senate vote on NSA's surveillance of telephone records was correct. The telephone companies are the reposkitoris
First of all, and probably always, thank you, Edward Snowden. Time to come home, the home that you protected.
Secondly, what does it mean if I agree with Rand Paul (in the first clip)? Second clip, someone should tell Rand Paul that when he spreads his arms out like that while speaking, he looks like a Catholic priest. His arm spread is a bit greater than what they are trained to do, but it might hold some significance none-the-less.
Thirdly, fear mongering has had its day, one hopes. Terrorism, as a term, has almost become meaningless in its overuse.
Fourth, did we just drive them (NSA, et al) further underground? I only half believe they will stop.
Secondly, what does it mean if I agree with Rand Paul (in the first clip)? Second clip, someone should tell Rand Paul that when he spreads his arms out like that while speaking, he looks like a Catholic priest. His arm spread is a bit greater than what they are trained to do, but it might hold some significance none-the-less.
Thirdly, fear mongering has had its day, one hopes. Terrorism, as a term, has almost become meaningless in its overuse.
Fourth, did we just drive them (NSA, et al) further underground? I only half believe they will stop.
4
Huge defeat for the American people.
2
Today's Senate approval to curtail NSA's surveillance of telephone records was correct. The telephone companies maintain all telephone records. The NSA can have access to these records with a court order. Benjamin Franklin reminded us that to sacrifice liberty in the name of security will deprive us of both.
2
Reality check congress must stop spending ,these programs amount to nothing but a lot wasted time an nenergy period .Apparently congress found way to justify just about anything in its quest drive country to being broke an leave this debt to our kids future
3
Say what you will about Rand Paul, he was out front on this issue, stuck his neck out, and got barraged by party elders for his stance. I can't stand him in general, but for this, I applaud him heartily.
3
The political circus is now over and the spying that never ended can continue.
8
I can’t believe how many people think the government is spying on them, as if it had the resources to track every single phone call made by every single citizen. Those who are complaining must feel that what they talk about on the phone is deemed important enough to devote the time and resources. Are there that many people here doing nefarious things via the phone that they think the government will find out and send a team of FBI agents to break down their doors? Nobody is that worried about terrorism anymore, I guess. That reminds me of the old story of the snake in the hen house. An experiment was done in which a hungry boa constrictor was placed in a hen house full of chickens. The hungry snake attacked one chicken, as all the other chickens flapped and squawked and tried to get away. Once the snake had its chicken, it stopped moving and just lay on the floor, slowly digesting its meal. Gradually, the other chickens forgot all about the imminent danger, and went about their business, pecking at their grain. Some even perched on the snakes back. After a day or so, the snake got hungry again, attacked another chicken, the rest all got terrified again, flapping and squawking, until they once again forgot all about the danger, and returned to complacency. And once a terror cell manages to blow up, say, Times Square, we will all be screaming for better surveillance again – that is, for a while, until we no longer remember what happens when we let our guard down.
3
Great comment, thank you.
Considering that 96%, per our own inept government measuring agency which is also inept, lots dangerous stuff passes through TSA I am not sure what this all means.
The focus on phone data is disingenuous; phone data collection is just the tip of the surveillance iceberg. All unconstitutional surveillance needs to be addressed.
13
I fail to see how government surveillance has been checked. Bulk data collection remains. FISA remains. The will of USG, especially Obama, to spy on the American people remains. Simply transfer the storage arrangement means nothing. Sorry, but The Times can do better. Too much is at stake.
12
"The will of USG, especially Obama, to spy on the American people remains"
Sorry to burst your bubble but the Patriot Act predated the Obama administration. In fact, Obama returned more FBI and NSA surveillance to FISA review that the Bush/Cheney administration had tried to avoid. So your "especially" comment is unfounded.
Sorry to burst your bubble but the Patriot Act predated the Obama administration. In fact, Obama returned more FBI and NSA surveillance to FISA review that the Bush/Cheney administration had tried to avoid. So your "especially" comment is unfounded.
So let me get this straight.
the same Republican Party that caused the deaths of thousands of US service members,
Are now saying, "well, we really don't care about terrorists."
the same Republican Party that caused the deaths of thousands of US service members,
Are now saying, "well, we really don't care about terrorists."
1
Take a good look at how many Democrats voted for the invasion of Iraq, the surge in Iraq and the surge in Afghanistan. Both parties (led by a Republican and Democratic Presidents) put the bodies of those boys and girls in Section 60 at Arlington
What happened?
Please someone read the freedom act carefully.
Last one the author exclaimed that's not what he meant.
Please someone read the freedom act carefully.
Last one the author exclaimed that's not what he meant.
1
Does the passage of the Freedom Act vindicate Edward Snowden?
1
It's just the beginning of the vindication of patriot Snowden. We need to go a lot further as many of these good comments point out.
1
Not at all. It just means too many people aren't thinking right, like he. (Happens all the time eh?).
Yes.
Obama will agree to the "reining in," and perhaps even offer pious pontification about "balancing liberty and privacy" when he signs it. He will do so only because he knows it's an empty charade, intended to extinguish an unwanted spotlight and put an end to a public debate that two administrations sought to avoid.
The new bill cracks down on one well-publicized surveillance program that is clearly unconstitutional. But it does nothing to address the underlying belief, promulgated by Bush/Cheney and affirmed by Obama, that after 9/11 intelligence agencies must operate above the law, unencumbered by the burdensome restrictions of the Bill of Rights. I have no doubt that there are numerous other highly intrusive (and very costly) mass surveillance programs that broadly vacuum up all manner of data about American citizens, for use in ways that would outrage us if we knew about them. They're authorized by classified memorandums through which the Executive Branch asserts the power to supersede and nullify the constitution at will, perhaps with a veneer of classified legal respectability provided by the kangaroo FISA Court.
That said, the constitution did win a small victory. For the first time since John Ashcroft bullied Congress to rubber-stamp the Patriot Act, Congress has hesitated to rubber-stamp a periodic renewal. That's encouraging-- unless they did it only because they also knew it would be an empty gesture to mollify people outraged by Snowden's revelations.
The new bill cracks down on one well-publicized surveillance program that is clearly unconstitutional. But it does nothing to address the underlying belief, promulgated by Bush/Cheney and affirmed by Obama, that after 9/11 intelligence agencies must operate above the law, unencumbered by the burdensome restrictions of the Bill of Rights. I have no doubt that there are numerous other highly intrusive (and very costly) mass surveillance programs that broadly vacuum up all manner of data about American citizens, for use in ways that would outrage us if we knew about them. They're authorized by classified memorandums through which the Executive Branch asserts the power to supersede and nullify the constitution at will, perhaps with a veneer of classified legal respectability provided by the kangaroo FISA Court.
That said, the constitution did win a small victory. For the first time since John Ashcroft bullied Congress to rubber-stamp the Patriot Act, Congress has hesitated to rubber-stamp a periodic renewal. That's encouraging-- unless they did it only because they also knew it would be an empty gesture to mollify people outraged by Snowden's revelations.
7
Don't be deceived by the name "Freedom Act". It was devised after the government spying was exposed by Snowden. The Congress acted surprised after they were caught. You can bet the government still has unbridled power to spy on the public. Now that power is embodied in different words, a grand deception. You can bet if the perpetrators call it the "Freedom Act", it is anything but. The simple fact remains that the Congress and the President still want to spy on Americans, just on a different path.
8
Why did your story omit the important bi-partisan amendments proposed by Senators Ron Wyden & Rand Paul but which Senator McConnell refused to allow considered? Specifically-
Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., and Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., announced nine amendments to reform U.S. surveillance programs, enhance protections for American’s personal information and improve transparency regarding intelligence activities. Wyden and Paul called on Republican leaders to allow votes on amendments to strengthen privacy protections, rather than forcing votes on amendments that would water down the USA Freedom Act.
The joint amendments would:
Amendment 1446: Require the government to get a warrant before collecting personal information from third parties
Amendment 1441: Raise the standard for government collection of call records under FISA from “reasonable grounds” to “probable cause”
Amendment 1442: Limit the government’s ability to use information gathered under intelligence authorities in unrelated criminal cases
Amendment 1443: Make it easier to challenge the use of illegally obtained surveillance information in criminal proceedings
Amendment 1454: Prohibit the government from requiring hardware and software companies to deliberately weaken encryption and other security features
Amendment 1444: Clarify the bill’s definition of “specific selection terms”
Amendment 1445: Require court approval for National Security Letters.
Etc.
Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., and Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., announced nine amendments to reform U.S. surveillance programs, enhance protections for American’s personal information and improve transparency regarding intelligence activities. Wyden and Paul called on Republican leaders to allow votes on amendments to strengthen privacy protections, rather than forcing votes on amendments that would water down the USA Freedom Act.
The joint amendments would:
Amendment 1446: Require the government to get a warrant before collecting personal information from third parties
Amendment 1441: Raise the standard for government collection of call records under FISA from “reasonable grounds” to “probable cause”
Amendment 1442: Limit the government’s ability to use information gathered under intelligence authorities in unrelated criminal cases
Amendment 1443: Make it easier to challenge the use of illegally obtained surveillance information in criminal proceedings
Amendment 1454: Prohibit the government from requiring hardware and software companies to deliberately weaken encryption and other security features
Amendment 1444: Clarify the bill’s definition of “specific selection terms”
Amendment 1445: Require court approval for National Security Letters.
Etc.
14
Thank you, Rand Paul.
7
ISIS, Al Queda, and Hamas must be breaking out the champagne.
I fear we will rue the decimation of the Patriot Act.
I fear we will rue the decimation of the Patriot Act.
3
Huh? It would have to be non-alcoholic "champagne."
The battle over phone metadata seems trivial when compared to the larger problems with our government, problems that directly affect Americans such as police militarization, big money in politics, and the stranglehold that the financial industry and the corporate boardroom has on political king-making.
Whether or not the NSA or AT&T has my data, if the government decide it wants it, it gets it. This fight is a meaningless distraction.
Whether or not the NSA or AT&T has my data, if the government decide it wants it, it gets it. This fight is a meaningless distraction.
2
No one in government will admit it, of course, but this obviously vindicates Edward Snowden.
9
I wonder how much the Rand Paul super PAC made off of the sun-setting of the Patriot Act.
Well, NSA has built up a metadata sweep infrastructure, and it is naïve to think that it is going to dismantle it and put the defense contractors like CSC out of business now that this measure has cleared the senate. A recent court opinion held that dragnet collection of metadata was not authorized in the Patriot Act and the NSA did it anyway. I wonder if anything is going to change now that we have rechristened Patriot, Freedom. Ironically, it is freedom to do whatever NSA wants to do in the name of protecting homeland.
The more things change, the more they WILL stay the same.
The more things change, the more they WILL stay the same.
2
The Boston bombing happened when Patriot Act was in place and law enforcement has every tool in its possession it needed to prevent such acts, but it could not by not using the resources it already has at its disposal. When law enforcement is diluting its resources on snooping everything relevant and irrelevant, it will be hard to stay focused on acts that it is supposed to prevent. Asking for more tools that chip away at civil liberties is the usual excuse used after every unfortunate incidence. Good for congress to reverse the course.
1
"WASHINGTON — In a remarkable reversal of national security policy formed after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the Senate voted on Tuesday to curtail the federal government’s sweeping surveillance of American phone records, sending the legislation to President Obama’s desk for his signature.
"The passage of the measure, achieved after a vigorous debate on the Senate floor, will lead to the reinstatement of government surveillance efforts that were blacked out on Monday after Senator Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky, blocked their extension."
I was looking forward to the immediate resolution of the paradox created by two apparently contradictory paragraphs, but it seems I'll have to look for that in another news outlet.
"The passage of the measure, achieved after a vigorous debate on the Senate floor, will lead to the reinstatement of government surveillance efforts that were blacked out on Monday after Senator Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky, blocked their extension."
I was looking forward to the immediate resolution of the paradox created by two apparently contradictory paragraphs, but it seems I'll have to look for that in another news outlet.
10
Thank you! I read it 4x thinking I had forgotten how to read. I turn to the Times to explain what this all means, but I am scratching my head.
What's in the House version? What are the curtailments? What surveillance was reinstated? What has been curtailed if surveillance was reinstated?
What's in the House version? What are the curtailments? What surveillance was reinstated? What has been curtailed if surveillance was reinstated?
1
Usually I am liberal. When this was began people were screaming for it. I watch with concern now. If problems arise, what will the will of the people be next?
I've never thought that exercising reasonable precaution to protect America against a terrorist attack was intrusive upon my civil liberties. I'm more concerned that my personal finances are going to be compromised every time I swipe my credit card or make an electronic transaction on line. The way I see it I've got a 1 in 319 million (population of the US) chance of the government drilling through my personal information. We don't know and won't be told by the government how effective it's surveillance efforts may have been. The natural public reaction has to be that it hasn't been. I guess the real question for me is, how many Americans have been hurt by our government surveillance?
2
USA exposed!
Despite the fact that most of the comments may disagree , I strongly feel some sort of surveillance is mandatory for the security of the nation.
Show me one country which is not monitoring its people in these age and times.
Are we waiting for another 9/11?
Despite the fact that most of the comments may disagree , I strongly feel some sort of surveillance is mandatory for the security of the nation.
Show me one country which is not monitoring its people in these age and times.
Are we waiting for another 9/11?
3
Don't call it the "Freedom Act," don't call it the "Patriot Act." We know what it's about, and it has nothing to do with freedom or patriotism. To wrap it in the flag is insulting.
10
Thank you, Rand Paul. You made it happen. Now I think we gave you a second look or a third.
1
U.S. taxpayers just shelled out $1 Billion dollars for a digital storage facility [in Utah] to archive our metadata. So what happens to that place now? Does it shutter down and sit idle? Doubt it! It would be very naive to think the NSA is going to curtail its’ programs just because of some senate rumblings. Metadata is still being collected and the recent antics in the senate between McConnell and Rand was just “White Man Kabuki.”
5
It was illegal to begin with, but they did it anyway. It violated the constitution, but they did it anyway. They told congress it didn’t exist, and then continued doing it.
But now they’re just going to flip the switch because congress tells them to?
I wonder if Edward Snowden is advising his family and friends that their phones are totally safe now that this bill has passed?
But now they’re just going to flip the switch because congress tells them to?
I wonder if Edward Snowden is advising his family and friends that their phones are totally safe now that this bill has passed?
8
Now can we pardon Edward Snowden?
15
Oh, The Freedom Act! How dumb do they think we are?
24
Pretty dumb.
3
Can we abolish the TSA next? I seriously doubt taking off my shoes and getting groped prevents terrorism.
9
I was at the top of the WTC exactly one month before 9/11 and I have ALWAYS been against the resultant increase in security and surveillance of ordinary citizens. It's always been pretty clear to me what a democracy is and isn't. It isn't a spy state like North Korea or the former East Germany. The world I grew up in was MUCH more dangerous than 9/11 (try Cold War circa 1963-83) and we had way less security and surveillance. So I never bought the dumbed-down argument that we needed to sacrifice our freedoms and rights for security. RUBBISH!
11
Hillary Clinton would continue Obama’s policy of allowing the NSA to continue their illegal and unconstitutional spying on Americans.
Bernie Sanders would rein in NSA abuses. Sanders voted against today’s legislation.
Sanders: “We must keep our country safe and protect ourselves from terrorists, but we can do that WITHOUT UNDERMINING THE CONSTITUTIONAL AND PRIVACY RIGHTS which make us a free nation. This bill is an improvement over the USA Patriot Act but there are still too many opportunities for the government to collect information on innocent people.”
“This is not just the government. It’s corporate America too. Technology has significantly outpaced public policy. There is a huge amount of information being collected on our individual lives ranging from where we go to the books we buy and the magazines we read. We need to have a discussion about that.”
Bernie 2016!
Bernie Sanders would rein in NSA abuses. Sanders voted against today’s legislation.
Sanders: “We must keep our country safe and protect ourselves from terrorists, but we can do that WITHOUT UNDERMINING THE CONSTITUTIONAL AND PRIVACY RIGHTS which make us a free nation. This bill is an improvement over the USA Patriot Act but there are still too many opportunities for the government to collect information on innocent people.”
“This is not just the government. It’s corporate America too. Technology has significantly outpaced public policy. There is a huge amount of information being collected on our individual lives ranging from where we go to the books we buy and the magazines we read. We need to have a discussion about that.”
Bernie 2016!
16
This bill highlights our country's need to have an informed and wide-ranging conversation on the balancing of liberty and national security. That conversation is not over -- in fact it is just beginning. I salute Edward Snowden and Rand Paul for helping to bring this conversation about.
9
Bravo, the US is regaining its collective sanity. A step in the right direction.
1
The Freedom Act is another misleading name. As I understand it it hands over the responsibility to collect the data NSA has been collecting to the telecom companies who will have to turn it over whenever the government asks. Not much in term of getting the American STASI off our back and out of our business.
8
Measures which curtail the rights of citizens should be put in place only upon the direst of emergencies, and then for a specific period. The threat from terrorists is real but it is not so overwhelming that we must abandon our rights to privacy. The reason is simple: all laws can and are abused, from Edgar Hoover to top secret designations that cover errors, to the need for enhanced interrogation of prisoners.
The claim of national security is ever abused. There simply are people for whom not enough will ever be spent on armaments, not enough restrictions put on people, not enough security to be displayed. I am not negating the potential dangers, but I am not willing to pay the high price that some would exact from us.
The claim of national security is ever abused. There simply are people for whom not enough will ever be spent on armaments, not enough restrictions put on people, not enough security to be displayed. I am not negating the potential dangers, but I am not willing to pay the high price that some would exact from us.
4
There isn't anybody who knows what the result will be. If ISIS and its American adherents use the new freedom to kill a large number of Americans everyone will be clamoring for new protections, and calling out those who opposed surveillance.
America has many opponents with a presence in our country. In addition many of our enemies are actively recruiting here. Will this facilitate their victories? Only time will tell. We all hope for the best.
America has many opponents with a presence in our country. In addition many of our enemies are actively recruiting here. Will this facilitate their victories? Only time will tell. We all hope for the best.
5
Perhaps America could try to figure precisely why so many people hate it and change that?
Hint - it's not because you are "a shining beacon of freedom for the world".
Hint - it's not because you are "a shining beacon of freedom for the world".
5
I'm with you, jb. If you have nothing to hide or fear, what harm will it cause me if the government hears me on my cell phone tell my wife I love her, or some other personal phone comments. I relinquish my rights of this kind of freedom, opting for safeguarding our country and fellow citizens from terrorists. It is my understanding that they 'listen' for key words that pertain to terroristic talk. Not caring what we say in normal conversation. If we have some kind of major terrorist strike (God forbid!), then it will be easy to blame those who killed this surveillance.
Rand Paul is my neighbor, and I love him to death, but I told him recently I can not agree with him on killing these laws. I hope they come together and knit a very functional and successful Homeland Security/Patriot Act.
Rand Paul is my neighbor, and I love him to death, but I told him recently I can not agree with him on killing these laws. I hope they come together and knit a very functional and successful Homeland Security/Patriot Act.
The fact that "so many people hate [America]" doesn't make them right, it just means they hate. America actually is a shining beacon of freedom for the world which is why millions clamour to enter the country vs. say (or in anywhere near the same numbers) the many hating, dubious or fence-sitting countries out there.
More often than not Australia has joined the U.S. when the chips were down and I'd think its solid good sense - as a whole - will ensure that continues.
If anything jb has understated the situation.
More often than not Australia has joined the U.S. when the chips were down and I'd think its solid good sense - as a whole - will ensure that continues.
If anything jb has understated the situation.
1
This law is meaningless and mostly a great deal of grandstanding by all on both sides of the issue. The fact remains that the FBI, CIA, NSA, DEA, DIA, etc. will continue the surveillance as long as they have cover from the President of the United States or from the FISA court. The illegality of spying on Americans has NEVER prevented these agencies from doing so since the 1950's. Hoover thumbed his nose repeatedly at Congress and the White House when ordered to stop illegal surveillance.
15
I am so done with America I want to get out of this nation. We need a revolution desperately.
4
There are two types of people: Those who say they're going to do something on Internet commenting boards; and those who actually do it.
if you were serious about leaving, you would leave, instead of just venting.
if you were serious about leaving, you would leave, instead of just venting.
For those interested the final vote to send the USA Freedom Act, intact, to the president's desk...
Of the 32 senators who voted against this bill only two, Bernie Sanders (VT) and Tammy Baldwin (WI) came from the minority side of the house.
In addition, among those who voted for the final bill was a liberal Democratic Party lawmaker named Elizabeth Warren (MA) who said earlier how "concerned" she was about the lobbying to get this bill passed.
So ask yourself, who do you really trust to protect one of our basic freedoms in our country - to be free from government tyranny?
Should you place your trust in some mealy-mouth, lightweight liberal politician or cowardly Democratic Party and GOP lawmakers or some of our so-called "wing-nut" lawmakers, like Rand Paul, who might have a clue that a surveillance state is someone that needs to be detested in a free and open society?
FYI - For the record, I am neither a conspiracy "wing-nut" nor a GOP supporter by any stretch of the imagination but someone who doesn't live in perpetual fear and values what our nation should stand for.
Of the 32 senators who voted against this bill only two, Bernie Sanders (VT) and Tammy Baldwin (WI) came from the minority side of the house.
In addition, among those who voted for the final bill was a liberal Democratic Party lawmaker named Elizabeth Warren (MA) who said earlier how "concerned" she was about the lobbying to get this bill passed.
So ask yourself, who do you really trust to protect one of our basic freedoms in our country - to be free from government tyranny?
Should you place your trust in some mealy-mouth, lightweight liberal politician or cowardly Democratic Party and GOP lawmakers or some of our so-called "wing-nut" lawmakers, like Rand Paul, who might have a clue that a surveillance state is someone that needs to be detested in a free and open society?
FYI - For the record, I am neither a conspiracy "wing-nut" nor a GOP supporter by any stretch of the imagination but someone who doesn't live in perpetual fear and values what our nation should stand for.
4
If you read "Artha Shastra" a book on state craft written thousands of years ago, it clearly states no government should pursue policies that sets Majority of population against them, or in other word not pursue unpopular policies.
3
No one wants to praise Sen. Rand Paul's successful effort to rescue the Fourth Amendment, but as a longtime Democrat with a strong liberal bent who disagrees with Sen. Paul on many issues, I salute him. I cannot understand why it took the U.S. Senate so long to voice its opposition to general warrants that violate the Fourth Amendment and that the courts have said are illegal. One would think that this great body, once the home of greater patriots who guarded our civil rights with diligence and unabashed enthusiasm, would have more quickly supported Sen. Paul's arguments against bulk collection of phone data that violate rights granted by the Constitution they are sworn to protect.
3
I feel the same way. Liberal Democrat here, and I salute Paul for taking a brave, lonely stand against the elders of both parties.
There is surveillance, and there is also a Congress that by and large appears to works for banks, the military industrial/security complex, and Israel's fascist right.
Which means they hold the American people in growing contempt.
Which makes the US government increasingly dangerous to Americans.
Which means they hold the American people in growing contempt.
Which makes the US government increasingly dangerous to Americans.
13
How does Congress work for "Israel's fascist right"? Please elaborate and support this statement.
There couldn't be more proof that our government is an oligarchy than what transpired today. The spy operation pitted against Americans is back in business. What a disgrace.
4
The supreme irony about this whole matter is that the clever folks at the NSA had invented a way, prior to 9/11, to monitor phone networks without the bulk data collection which is against our Constitution. In the rush to prevent another 9/11, however, the folks in charge of that program were sidelined in favor of the much more aggressive eavesdropping favored by the Bush administration. We could have been safe without having our rights trampled. This was explained in Frontline's award-winning documentary, "The United States of Secrets."
4
Anyone else get the feeling that, one way or another, the surveillance state will continue unabated in some form regardless of legislative debate -- or permissions granted or denied?
15
What makes anyone think anything has changed? The NSA is accountable to nobody - and they know it. They didn't just build that monstrosity in the Utah desert for nuthin'.
8
Thank you Senator Paul. We don't have the full story behind this Government power grab and entrenchment against the people, but you instinctively knew the right course of action. You did the right thing and I'm abundantly grateful.
Thank you sir.
Thank you sir.
7
Why on earth has it taken FOURTEEN years to do this? What kind of country have we become?
13
Surveillance programs initiated after 9/11 were the proper responses at that time. As we have evolved from that horrendous day these programs have now outlived their usefulness and need to be terminated. The blatant abuse of these initiatives by the current administration and its appointees only serves to demonstrate the immediate need to end to these measures.
3
Surveillance programs in the US were never the proper response.
The proper response would have been a standard and thorough criminal investigation into the largest mass murder in the history of the US.
Not only was there not even, a standard arson investigation into fires which we were told brought down WTC 1, 2, and 7, but there was no NTSB investigation of the crash sites as required by law. The FBI did not secure the crime scenes, but instead assisted in the destruction of most of the evidence which was cleared by waste haulers and loaded on ships for recycling in China.
The criminal investigation of the largest mass murder in the history of the US still needs to be completed, and those responsible prosecuted.
Unfortunately, there is insufficient leadership in law enforcement and Congress to undertake this difficult and necessary task.
The proper response would have been a standard and thorough criminal investigation into the largest mass murder in the history of the US.
Not only was there not even, a standard arson investigation into fires which we were told brought down WTC 1, 2, and 7, but there was no NTSB investigation of the crash sites as required by law. The FBI did not secure the crime scenes, but instead assisted in the destruction of most of the evidence which was cleared by waste haulers and loaded on ships for recycling in China.
The criminal investigation of the largest mass murder in the history of the US still needs to be completed, and those responsible prosecuted.
Unfortunately, there is insufficient leadership in law enforcement and Congress to undertake this difficult and necessary task.
4
On the merits, Senator McConnell was right. The NSA program, in the form that existed until May 31, was a valuable tool in our battle with terrorists. And the intrusion it made on civil liberties was imaginary. As the Supreme Court pointed out 36 years ago, one does not have a right or legitimate expectation of privacy in phone records (as distinguished from phone conversations).
Nevertheless, Senator McConnell was uncharacteristically inept in his strategy. As pointed out in RINOcracy.com and elsewhere, it had been clear for sometime that continuation of the program in its previous form was not going to be possible. All that McConnell's efforts yielded was a brief but unfortunate interruption of the program.
As for Senator Paul, this sad episode will have proved to be of some value if his antics serve, as they should, to rule him out from serious consideration as a Republican nominee for President.
Nevertheless, Senator McConnell was uncharacteristically inept in his strategy. As pointed out in RINOcracy.com and elsewhere, it had been clear for sometime that continuation of the program in its previous form was not going to be possible. All that McConnell's efforts yielded was a brief but unfortunate interruption of the program.
As for Senator Paul, this sad episode will have proved to be of some value if his antics serve, as they should, to rule him out from serious consideration as a Republican nominee for President.
3
Valuable tool? You must be joking.
Those commenting that it is no biggee dealee that the gov scoops up all your communications, just in case...are clueless as to the significance of this action.
Our entire judicial system rests on assumptions of a logical sequence....a crime committed ....evidence gathered according to a prescribed legal procedure .....prosecution with respect for the rules of evidence ....individual protections in the process, such as the right to confront your accuser, the right to a speedy trial or habeus corpus, the right to legal counsel, right to be secure in your person papers and effects unless a judge authorized, specific warrant....
For the government to collect all manner of communication between people in this country, citizens of the USA, and then to review all those private communications, and look for a evidence of a crime, or evidence of intent to commit a future crime, completely subverts our system of law and justice.
We would have to redesign our government, its underlying philosophy, its three branches, its separation of powers, etc., if were to go down the road desired by those who want to make the US look more like East Germany, a surveillance state.
These "tools" which so many refer to are not tools which protect us, but are the tools with which we self destruct.
Those commenting that it is no biggee dealee that the gov scoops up all your communications, just in case...are clueless as to the significance of this action.
Our entire judicial system rests on assumptions of a logical sequence....a crime committed ....evidence gathered according to a prescribed legal procedure .....prosecution with respect for the rules of evidence ....individual protections in the process, such as the right to confront your accuser, the right to a speedy trial or habeus corpus, the right to legal counsel, right to be secure in your person papers and effects unless a judge authorized, specific warrant....
For the government to collect all manner of communication between people in this country, citizens of the USA, and then to review all those private communications, and look for a evidence of a crime, or evidence of intent to commit a future crime, completely subverts our system of law and justice.
We would have to redesign our government, its underlying philosophy, its three branches, its separation of powers, etc., if were to go down the road desired by those who want to make the US look more like East Germany, a surveillance state.
These "tools" which so many refer to are not tools which protect us, but are the tools with which we self destruct.
2
I am frankly disturbed by this Bill. Since I don't get too many phone calls and those that I do get are pretty dull, it would be personally exciting to think that a government spy operation for which we pay dearly would be listening. All that I ask is that the "surveiller" reveal his/her identity so we could chat and would afford me the opportunity to fabricate creatively. I can just imagine the excitement my life would now be imbued with, poundings on doors, armed guards, carried away without any protest, the ensuing interrogations, while I refuse to crack under pressure. I would cancel my subscription to cable TV.
4
The new law, he said, would “take one more tool away from those who defend our country every day.”
There are those who defend our country from threats to our lives, and then there are those who defend our country from threats to our liberties. This decision is a win for the latter.
There are those who defend our country from threats to our lives, and then there are those who defend our country from threats to our liberties. This decision is a win for the latter.
3
I've seen people spy on our Canadian neighbors on the St. Clair River in Port Huron, Michigan on Thomas Edison Parkway from the view of their car through their binoculars.
I've seen my dad stare out towards Lake Huron at Ipperwash Beach in Ontario, Canada from our front lake property through his binoculars.
If it wasn't for surviellance of everyday citizens spying on neighbors be in in a neighborhood or from under an International Bridge Crossing as the Blue Water Bridge where would we be?
Would we be less safe and would it be invasion of privacy set forth from individuals that are not sanctioned to perform such activites? Is it related to drugs or is it that we have become a country in the United States and in other countries that fought together as allies during WWII that we don't trust our own family anymore?
I've seen my dad stare out towards Lake Huron at Ipperwash Beach in Ontario, Canada from our front lake property through his binoculars.
If it wasn't for surviellance of everyday citizens spying on neighbors be in in a neighborhood or from under an International Bridge Crossing as the Blue Water Bridge where would we be?
Would we be less safe and would it be invasion of privacy set forth from individuals that are not sanctioned to perform such activites? Is it related to drugs or is it that we have become a country in the United States and in other countries that fought together as allies during WWII that we don't trust our own family anymore?
And how will we actually know if metadata collection is halted? Who will verify that fact? How will they verify that fact? To whom will they report that fact?
To me this whole circus is just an exercise in grandstanding and self-congratulatory back-slapping. Is there another Ed Snowden with the integrity to report the truth?
We've seen all the "directors" of NSA, FBI, CIA etc., lie to Congress when asked directly if they've spied on Americans. How is that possibly going to change? We still have a president who has the gall to suggest this unconstitutional spying is, somehow, and in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, beneficial to "national security".
We should demand verifiable evidence of compliance. I'm not holding my breath.
To me this whole circus is just an exercise in grandstanding and self-congratulatory back-slapping. Is there another Ed Snowden with the integrity to report the truth?
We've seen all the "directors" of NSA, FBI, CIA etc., lie to Congress when asked directly if they've spied on Americans. How is that possibly going to change? We still have a president who has the gall to suggest this unconstitutional spying is, somehow, and in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, beneficial to "national security".
We should demand verifiable evidence of compliance. I'm not holding my breath.
23
I can't figure out what happened: "lawmakers beat back a series of amendments that he sought that would have rolled back proposed controls on government spying." Obfuscation mission accomplished.
4
The bill places restraints on the government, McConnell proposed amendments to the bill cancelling those restraints. -- But you do have a point about the writing.
I do find it curious that we are so concerned about GOVERNMENT spying..... but it is OK for private companies, some with foreign links to gather it instead.... and with little or no oversight. (oh that's right, private industry can do no wrong). The government collection could not be attributed to any successes, perhaps because of the bureaucracy. Do I really want private companies, with immunity and profit motive collecting data? How about banning it all.
8
The headline "Senate Approves Bill to Rein In N.S.A. Surveillance" is 180 degrees from the truth.
The Senate acted to reauthorize N.S.A Surveillance.
Had they done nothing, then the unconstitutional USA PATRIOT Act would have expired. Instead, they breathed new life into it.
The Senate acted to reauthorize N.S.A Surveillance.
Had they done nothing, then the unconstitutional USA PATRIOT Act would have expired. Instead, they breathed new life into it.
13
Funny how almost everyone missed that most salient point. Nothing was "reined in".
5
The headline, plus the following, had me utterly confused:" The passage of the measure, achieved after a vigorous debate on the Senate floor, will lead to the reinstatement of government surveillance efforts that were blacked out on Monday after Senator Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky, blocked their extension."
Mainstream media, the Times, the Washington Post, and others, including broadcast television, all adhere to a government orchestrated method of reporting, one that is generally known as "perception management", a very clever weapon in their arsenal, that is designed over time to cause the listener to unwittingly accept outright lying as truth.
It's been used for decades, by all parties, with the aid of such entities as The Rendon Group, Rendon.com a company that proudly lists the United States Government, as one of its clients.
Check the services they provide to their international government clients, and be amazed.
http://www.rendon.com/services/
Move around in their site and examine their "Thought Leadership" section.
Rendon vetted and rewrote every report out of Iraq, before any media ran it, especially during the first campaign.
It's been used for decades, by all parties, with the aid of such entities as The Rendon Group, Rendon.com a company that proudly lists the United States Government, as one of its clients.
Check the services they provide to their international government clients, and be amazed.
http://www.rendon.com/services/
Move around in their site and examine their "Thought Leadership" section.
Rendon vetted and rewrote every report out of Iraq, before any media ran it, especially during the first campaign.
Today, Congress made more dates that "will live in infamy" -- future Pearl Harbor and 9/11 attacks more likely.
Integrated signals intelligence, traffic analysis, and crypto efforts played a very large role in defeating the Axis powers in World War II. Then, communications pipelines were orders of magnitude smaller, slower, and less complex than today's global nets. Moreover, unlike then, today we face a threat environment in which enemy communications activities and networks are comingled with commercial and personal interchanges.
Unfortunately, Senator Paul, many of the commenters here, and a good part of the public appear to be unwilling to understand the very great difference between eavesdropping and analytical activities curtailed.
Integrated signals intelligence, traffic analysis, and crypto efforts played a very large role in defeating the Axis powers in World War II. Then, communications pipelines were orders of magnitude smaller, slower, and less complex than today's global nets. Moreover, unlike then, today we face a threat environment in which enemy communications activities and networks are comingled with commercial and personal interchanges.
Unfortunately, Senator Paul, many of the commenters here, and a good part of the public appear to be unwilling to understand the very great difference between eavesdropping and analytical activities curtailed.
5
The size, scope, and cost of the new hidden government charged with "protecting our security" has been well documented, although the cost maybe hidden. Now it has taken on a life of its own in search of real or imagined enemies. Without real unbiased oversight and transparency, how are we to judge the value and what proof is there that we are really safer? Claims in the past have been fabricated and officials, Mr. Clapper for one, have lied to Congress, without any real repercussions. This is the mark of a country that is only able to exhibit paranoia and ignore core values.
12
Further evidence, if any was needed, that the Republicans may be good at obstruction, but they can't govern at all.
The terrorist threats that we suffer today are from the past U.S. foreign policy.
Focus on fixing the real problem as opposed to making band-aids that allows individuals in the government to have more power over ordinary citizens. ( The abuse-of-power of police officers is a prime example of what happens when you give too much power to a government entities or government employees. There needs to be stronger checks on corruption and individuals working in government. )
( Most of these Senators are part of the mob. The original intent of the Senate was too have intelligent men, who are also well-educated be a check on the mob. The structure of government/constitution needs to be changed to put in place the proper check on the mob. )
Focus on fixing the real problem as opposed to making band-aids that allows individuals in the government to have more power over ordinary citizens. ( The abuse-of-power of police officers is a prime example of what happens when you give too much power to a government entities or government employees. There needs to be stronger checks on corruption and individuals working in government. )
( Most of these Senators are part of the mob. The original intent of the Senate was too have intelligent men, who are also well-educated be a check on the mob. The structure of government/constitution needs to be changed to put in place the proper check on the mob. )
1
This would not have been possible without the debate that was set in motion by Edward Snowden's revelations.
Time to pardon him.
Time to pardon him.
185
Pardon implies that he committed a crime. He didn't. And if one suggests that he did, then so did Clapper and Patraeus. Why do they get favorable treatment?
US needs to drop all charges against Snowden and invite him back to the US. Of course that will never happen. As much as I would like that, I am holding out a slim sliver of hope that Obama will pardon him fully on his last day in office. But given Obama's zeal in prosecuting whistleblowers, it's a very very tall order.
US needs to drop all charges against Snowden and invite him back to the US. Of course that will never happen. As much as I would like that, I am holding out a slim sliver of hope that Obama will pardon him fully on his last day in office. But given Obama's zeal in prosecuting whistleblowers, it's a very very tall order.
1
We should all fully support Snowden's return to the United States to face the charges against him. Let's talk about pardoning him after he is convicted, which he almost certainly will be.
He hasn't been convicted or tried in absentia - yet. Let him return a free man to the country whose constitution he tried to defend.
I have had very conflicted feelings about this issue from the start. On the one hand (as someone who lived through 9/11 and saw the second tower collapse) I am grateful that we have been able to prevent further attacks by those monsters and realize that living in the ever more dangerous modern world comes with the price of having to sacrifice some degree of liberty. That is a clear fact and one that I am more than willing to bear. Conversely, I worry about the misuse of this information by the government. Long gone are the days of my youth when I believed that our government was ONLY interested in maintaining a benevolent control of "we, the people". I DO feel that there are opportunities for this private information which has nothing to do with government interests in being privy to to be misused by unscrupulous officials. This may not be the "rule" but it IS, alas, an all too frequent "exception". In the final analysis, I think an amendment to the previous policy which adds some strong guidelines and limits to the surveillance is probably a good thing. As I've always said, those with nothing to hide SHOULD NOT HAVE anything to fear from a MODICUM of surveillance in the name of providing safety to us all. Some "reining in" of the surveillance should allow for us to maintain adequate systems to combat possible terrorists while sending a signal to the NSA that any abuse of private records which have no bearing on the war on terror will not be tolerated.
35
If you consider government misuse of the data NSA collected and managed "an all too frequent 'exception'" it would be good to mention one or two examples (beyond known instances of employee misbehavior that the agency handled as discipline problems).
The corrections in the USA FREEDOM Act are reasonable ones, but should not be viewed as a significant change in terms of privacy. Communication metadata will continue to be available from the carriers when the government requires it, and the principal effect will be to degrade the performance of the logical call database by 90% or more. It is possible, although unlikely, that the degradation will result in one or more intelligence "failures" analogous to that alleged to have preceded the 9/11 attack.
The corrections in the USA FREEDOM Act are reasonable ones, but should not be viewed as a significant change in terms of privacy. Communication metadata will continue to be available from the carriers when the government requires it, and the principal effect will be to degrade the performance of the logical call database by 90% or more. It is possible, although unlikely, that the degradation will result in one or more intelligence "failures" analogous to that alleged to have preceded the 9/11 attack.
Have you been paying attention to the news for the last eight years? The whole thing is an anarchic riot of eavesdropping, lack of oversight, and abuse of 4th amendment rights.
They've already shown they can't handle the power, and they aren't even elected officials setting up the tapping, etc.
Seriously, do some research on the all the whistleblowers punished for exposing the abuses for starters.
They've already shown they can't handle the power, and they aren't even elected officials setting up the tapping, etc.
Seriously, do some research on the all the whistleblowers punished for exposing the abuses for starters.
5
Have you, Brendan, not lived in a country that has been spared another devastating terrorist attack since 9/11? Do you not realize that living in a safer (not safe but at least safer) society requires some very intense intelligence gathering? "Seriously, do some..." THINKING about how we are supposed to live in a safer society without gathering intelligence on those terrorist that live among us.
1
No protracted war can fail to endanger the freedom of a democratic nation.
-Alexis de Tocqueville
Interesting that he wrote about this long before there was the vague concept of a telephone. This "war on terror" has served only to enrich a select few, at the expense of the public. Or to bring to bear another de Tocqueville quote:
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money
-Alexis de Tocqueville
Interesting that he wrote about this long before there was the vague concept of a telephone. This "war on terror" has served only to enrich a select few, at the expense of the public. Or to bring to bear another de Tocqueville quote:
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money
8
A little sarcasm is warranted, and that is to call the GOP soft on terrorism and defense. That said, I am skeptical that the bill will do much to preserve our civil liberties.
8
It's rather amusing to watch the GOP break into the "paranoid of Muslims" vs "paranoid of Washington" debate.
8
Lovers of freedom should be ashamed today. All this spying has not produced one tangible result - it's just another way of the government scaring us into spending more money.
22
So now I guess the repository for our national phone calls, those we will be obtaining through search warrants, will be the phone companies and employees thereof who do not have a security clearance and can play with the data anytime they want, just for fun...terrific toy.
5
That may be the case; it would be nice if the article had said something about the actual content of the bill :-(
7
There is not an American out there who believes the government will stop spying on its own people regardless of legislative changes.
Alas, we will never know because it's impossible to prove that the government isn't spying on us.
Government is in a lose-lose position in this battle. So are Americans.
Alas, we will never know because it's impossible to prove that the government isn't spying on us.
Government is in a lose-lose position in this battle. So are Americans.
82
Then we owe a large debt to Edward Snowden. That's how we found out the extent of the information sweeping.
I'm trying get this picked comment straight. We can't prove that government will not still spy on us. But government is in a lose-lose position.
What am I missing here?
Apart from this, how can we know that government will do anything they are supposed to do on this or any other issue? You trust the patrolman down the street to do his job. You trust those who assess and collect our taxes to do theirs with probity and impartiality. Why mistrust government gnomes in Washington on this one issue?
What am I missing here?
Apart from this, how can we know that government will do anything they are supposed to do on this or any other issue? You trust the patrolman down the street to do his job. You trust those who assess and collect our taxes to do theirs with probity and impartiality. Why mistrust government gnomes in Washington on this one issue?
With local police agencies using programs like ERICA feeding back into the Federal system, this shift is a non-issue. Nothing has changed.
9
All hail Edward Snowden!
32
Time to declare Snowden a hero for exposing the farce and starting the debate. Will the President pardon him so he can return home and live a free man in his own country that owes him?
37
I'm tired of hearing defenders of these vast surveillance efforts insist that they are necessary to our security, but refuse to provide any examples of situations in which they have actually made us safer. Can they come up with even one example? Just one? No, because the information is "classified." So how do we know these efforts are of any value? We don't.
Bill O'Reilly, of all people, once asked Bush a relevant question. He asked how, if the methods we use to interrogate prisoners are kept secret, voters are supposed to decide whether they approve of what our government is doing in this area. The same question applies to electronic surveillance operations. If we don't know what government is actually doing or don't have any facts to let us judge whether an operation is working, then how are we as voters supposed to decide whether we approve of it and of the leaders who back it? Answer: We can't. Democracy just doesn't work in this situation.
Bill O'Reilly, of all people, once asked Bush a relevant question. He asked how, if the methods we use to interrogate prisoners are kept secret, voters are supposed to decide whether they approve of what our government is doing in this area. The same question applies to electronic surveillance operations. If we don't know what government is actually doing or don't have any facts to let us judge whether an operation is working, then how are we as voters supposed to decide whether we approve of it and of the leaders who back it? Answer: We can't. Democracy just doesn't work in this situation.
9
Anyone who believes the headline is easily manipulated by the media. Private companies can collect more data on citizens than the government can - then sell it to the government. That's why Edward Snowden was working for a private security company (Booz Allen Hamilton). This company collected all communications without any warrants and contractors kept collections of sexual pictures and messages to trade around.
All your data is still being collected. This bill has done nothing to stop data collection. Make sure you understand what is happening. This is the "Military-Industrial Complex" that Eisenhower warned us about. Only now, they're also "Military-Industrial-Surveillance Complex".
All your data is still being collected. This bill has done nothing to stop data collection. Make sure you understand what is happening. This is the "Military-Industrial Complex" that Eisenhower warned us about. Only now, they're also "Military-Industrial-Surveillance Complex".
38
Although I believe that the Patriot Act should have been allowed to expire completely, I suppose half a loaf is better than none. The right-wing hawks (as opposed to the libertarians) were moving the nation toward an intrusive Big Brother state. The NSA was operating illegally and the FISA court was a joke--it never turned down a single application to spy on Americans on American soil. What is wrong with getting a subpoena for a legitimate cause? I shudder to think how this mass collection of records might be used under a Lindsay Graham (or similar repressive Republican) administration.
27
Worried about Big Brother? How about the "Grand Caliph"?
You do realize that the NSA is an Executive Branch department that has been run lock, stock and barrel by President Obama for the last six years.
1
If the tool is illegal, it's not a tool - it's a weapon.
Do whatever you have to do within the limits of the law to protect America. Just stop trampling on our RIGHTS. It's illegal, incredibly disrespectful, and completely un-American.
Do whatever you have to do within the limits of the law to protect America. Just stop trampling on our RIGHTS. It's illegal, incredibly disrespectful, and completely un-American.
14
Coverage of this story on TV has been awful. Spokesmen for the billion-dollar military intelligence complex and defenders of government snooping are interviewed, one after the other, but Constitutional issues are never brought up.
15
The Patriots act bill might as well die. The Patriots act passed under panic conditions and in a hurry without really thinking. Therefore it deserves to die. I wonder what bills the Congress would pass if they are under more serious panic situation. The 9/11 is not that serious where the members of Congress can't take a deep breath and count ten before making their decisions. They behaved like a bunch of panic kids ran to the exit door. Now a days, the Republicans doesn't seem to stand for anything. It is very difficult for McConnell to lead such a chaos group. I am not sorry for him. He asked for it.
4
'9/11 is not that serious"? How could can one possibly respond to that? Go talk to the families of the 3,000 victims and see if they agree with you.
God! I wish people were actually understand what they are against. The NSA does not read people's cherished emails! Do any of you think there are people employed to read ALL the email of 300 plus million Americans sent daily??
Just as with so many things, Americans never actually bother to be informed about what they are for or against, but just push their pet peeves that mostly have nothing to do with the actual legislation.
And of course, when it is time to vote, can't be bothered!
Just as with so many things, Americans never actually bother to be informed about what they are for or against, but just push their pet peeves that mostly have nothing to do with the actual legislation.
And of course, when it is time to vote, can't be bothered!
6
Excuse me, but maybe we're not as dumb as you suspect. The point isn't whether the government is reading all of our emails, listening to all of our phone calls, etc. Instead, it's whether the government has the right to collect these types of information in violation of the 4th amendment ("unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause…"). Moreover, it's a reaction to the fact the government was collecting the information in secret until Edward Snowden let us know.
6
"Do any of you think there are people employed to read ALL the email of 300 plus million Americans sent daily??"
No, which is one reason to get rid of this - a lot can/will fall through their hands from too much information, just as 9/11 did despite many signs, but any one of the hired help can/do read a random private email. The database can also be stolen/hacked and its information used then by various parties for other than "national security".
As for what the legislation actually does, not much, just posturing like much legislation these days.
No, which is one reason to get rid of this - a lot can/will fall through their hands from too much information, just as 9/11 did despite many signs, but any one of the hired help can/do read a random private email. The database can also be stolen/hacked and its information used then by various parties for other than "national security".
As for what the legislation actually does, not much, just posturing like much legislation these days.
1
I agree the NSA thing is passe and should be terminated because it's useless, but that's not my point. The point is most people have no clue just as they don't realize the Government can still do what it wants and this new bill or whatever means nothing. If they would only READ! (Including what I actually post) But, that is too much to ask of the American people these days.
While they're at it, would they please rein in the TSA.
Rampant violation of our 4th amendment rights has been going on in every airport for nearly 14 years now. I've never understood why the ACLU isn't kicking and screaming about this.
Will some candidate be courageous enough to run for Congress on a "personal grooming" platform (for crissake let us bring more than 3 oz of shampoo, body lotion, etc. in our carryons)?
Rampant violation of our 4th amendment rights has been going on in every airport for nearly 14 years now. I've never understood why the ACLU isn't kicking and screaming about this.
Will some candidate be courageous enough to run for Congress on a "personal grooming" platform (for crissake let us bring more than 3 oz of shampoo, body lotion, etc. in our carryons)?
3
Gee, don't you remember how the terrorists boarded those 4 planes on 9/11/01? Just walked right on with a minimal search for bombs or guns. When George Bush shortly thereafter advised us of the new controls, he acknowledged that they would cause delays in air travel but asked that the nation cooperate. Where were you? Even the ACLU had enough common sense not to touch this one.
3
Have you been through a TSA line lately? If you have precheck, the exam isn't much different than pre 9/11.
1
Tsa, hmmm... aren't they the ones busted for selecting specific male customers/fliers for a special pat down by a homosexual employee?
Pretty amazing. We have chickenhawks obstructing passage of a bill that would give the government authority to continue its surveillance capabilities, to give the government extra powers and more secrecy that the courts have ruled are unconstitutional, and that both the White House, the NSA, and the American people have all said they do not need or want.
McConnell and the chickenhawks want the NSA to continue being able to spy on the American people.... w-what? Then pass the bill! You have the votes to do it!
We have McConnell saying he's going to run the Senate responsibly and get something done.... w-what? He could have had this wrapped up MONTHS ago if he had stopped playing brinkmanship games and had obeyed the will of the the majority of his colleagues, the entire House, the NSA, and the White House.
We have Republicans saying the Obama administration has become too powerful and unaccountable to the American people.... w-what? At least in this case it's Republicans, not the government, that are trying to avoid accountability.
The hypocrisy is truly stunning. How the chickenhawks are going to justify this to their constituents, I have no idea. Their election opponents are going to have a field day with this.
McConnell and the chickenhawks want the NSA to continue being able to spy on the American people.... w-what? Then pass the bill! You have the votes to do it!
We have McConnell saying he's going to run the Senate responsibly and get something done.... w-what? He could have had this wrapped up MONTHS ago if he had stopped playing brinkmanship games and had obeyed the will of the the majority of his colleagues, the entire House, the NSA, and the White House.
We have Republicans saying the Obama administration has become too powerful and unaccountable to the American people.... w-what? At least in this case it's Republicans, not the government, that are trying to avoid accountability.
The hypocrisy is truly stunning. How the chickenhawks are going to justify this to their constituents, I have no idea. Their election opponents are going to have a field day with this.
8
One correction: courts have not ruled that the telephone metadata program is unconstitutional. One judge stated a belief that it probably was unconstitutional, a finding at odd with other decisions that support a claim that it is. A second court ruled a few weeks ago that it is not permissible under the existing law, but that the Congress could correct that problem. Because the second court found the program illegal, it never considered the question of whether it was constitutional.
The claim that the American people have said they do not need or want it, presumably based on surveys, probably is false.
The claim that the American people have said they do not need or want it, presumably based on surveys, probably is false.
The fact that Democratic politicians are fairly united about this should give pause to the anti-government folks who are siding with the Tea Party crazy Rand Paul. When pretty much every other issue he espouses is something very backwards - like fetal personhood, Religious Freedom to discriminate, and is against gay marriage, minimum wage, and immigration (he wanted to end birthright citizenship) - you should think why your ideas are close to his.
This is a reform bill that would end bulk data collection. It has already passed the House and could actually pass the Senate since the Democrats all support it.
Why are so many commenters against a reform bill?
Why are they falling into the camp of the anti-government crazies who are suspicious of FEMA stockpiling caskets and food, who watch the skies for federal helicopters, and think the federal government is invading Texas soon?
This grandstanding by Rand Paul is just an anti-government crazy tactic to get attention for his presidential campaign.
This is a reform bill that would end bulk data collection. It has already passed the House and could actually pass the Senate since the Democrats all support it.
Why are so many commenters against a reform bill?
Why are they falling into the camp of the anti-government crazies who are suspicious of FEMA stockpiling caskets and food, who watch the skies for federal helicopters, and think the federal government is invading Texas soon?
This grandstanding by Rand Paul is just an anti-government crazy tactic to get attention for his presidential campaign.
1
re: SMB from Savanna
Maybe before you applaud the Democratic Party lawmaker's effort and blasting the Tea Party "crazies" maybe you might take a look at one key provision of the USA Freedom Act concerning the bulk collection of phone records - a provision that now requires private companies, like Verizon, to maintain those records.
And don't think for a minute with this trove of information that the government cannot easily get hold of these records at a moments notice.
Concerning other forms of surveillance - such as electronic - in the USA Freedom Act nothing really changes in this bill since the FISA provisions don't expire for another two years.
So, you tell me, is this bill really "reform" or simply more of the same, but under a different name?
Because, from this non-crazy, non-Tea Party moderate voter who consistently votes for those with a (D) after their name, I see nothing that changes the abuses that we have seen from today's surveillance state and I see nothing that changes my opinion that the vast majority of lawmakers, especially those from the Democratic Party, are cowards that have lost the capacity to understand the concept of freedom.
Maybe before you applaud the Democratic Party lawmaker's effort and blasting the Tea Party "crazies" maybe you might take a look at one key provision of the USA Freedom Act concerning the bulk collection of phone records - a provision that now requires private companies, like Verizon, to maintain those records.
And don't think for a minute with this trove of information that the government cannot easily get hold of these records at a moments notice.
Concerning other forms of surveillance - such as electronic - in the USA Freedom Act nothing really changes in this bill since the FISA provisions don't expire for another two years.
So, you tell me, is this bill really "reform" or simply more of the same, but under a different name?
Because, from this non-crazy, non-Tea Party moderate voter who consistently votes for those with a (D) after their name, I see nothing that changes the abuses that we have seen from today's surveillance state and I see nothing that changes my opinion that the vast majority of lawmakers, especially those from the Democratic Party, are cowards that have lost the capacity to understand the concept of freedom.
they made the Tea Party the Left's Emmanuel Goldstein, and they continued stripping away your Constitutional rights, and you cheered them on as they did so, because the Tea Party was your enemy, though not in power.
We've always been at war with the Tea Party.
We've always been at war with the Tea Party.
Why? Because nothing is different in the "new" bill. The phone companies will still collect bulk data and the government can still access that data. It has nothing to do with Americans being paranoid or siding with the loonies. Its the trickery and charlatanism that many people like me are outraged about.
3
Only the gullible believe the NSA will stop collecting all these data, law or no law. It is fittingly ironic that our Constitutionally trained lawyer-President is in office to oversee the shredding of that Constitution. RIP, democracy.
9
New news; edited article. Old comments.
1
I am one of millions of Americans who would rather keep our rights against federal Big Brother snooping into our private communications. I'm as far to the left as Rand Paul is to the right. Sacrificing rights as the price for security is sham perpetrated by authoritarian governments for millennia.
331
Exactly. They had all the resources in the world and they still couldn't stop 9/11.
1
Rand Paul is against unnecessary wars. What is far right about that?
If there is one thing the military is very good at doing, it is creating enemies so they can justify their existence and empire building. Now they wish to create internal enemies by spying on all Americans which is simply playing the odds. The Pentagon has Senators and Congressmen in Congress doing their bidding and enabling that empire building while President Obama turned out to be a military yes-man puppet of his close "Advisers". The bust of Lincoln in his office was very telling. Just like Lincoln, Obama would kill his own countrymen. You know when Obama and McCain agree on spying on the country, something is going on.
22
Do you even care that the NSA is a non-military organization?
Even the NSA itself has been wondering why they are gathering all of this mega telephone tap information as it has not led to a single terrorist or potential terrorist act, besides costing a bundle of money.
For the answer to that look at your Fed Burr of Eye, the legacy of J. Edgarina, the pharaoh of fascists.
FB-Eye wants this mega-tapping as they have a back door into that data base so every day, as an unwarranted addition to their fascist “name checking,” they tap a couple hundred various phones beyond the three days they are allowed without a warrant.
First, say you, the applicant right out of law school apply for a job to clerk in a federal, state, or county court. You get a letter from the Burr of Eye volks suggesting that for name check purposes they’d like an interview.
The day before you get their letter every phone you own is being listened to live and recorded for FB committee review.
Then at the interview, based on the fruits of invasion, in case you sound really broke cause of law school debt, etc., based on their view of you as a devil’s advocate bureaucrat, as opposed to a Tom Paine patriot, they offer you additional money to keep your ears open for cases they might be interested in—the beginning of your corruption.
FBi doesn’t want to cease their back way into the data for the above reason, regardless of NSA. They are behind this.
Upon election to president I plan to pardon Ed Snowden and have him work in The White House
http://mchaelslevinson.com
For the answer to that look at your Fed Burr of Eye, the legacy of J. Edgarina, the pharaoh of fascists.
FB-Eye wants this mega-tapping as they have a back door into that data base so every day, as an unwarranted addition to their fascist “name checking,” they tap a couple hundred various phones beyond the three days they are allowed without a warrant.
First, say you, the applicant right out of law school apply for a job to clerk in a federal, state, or county court. You get a letter from the Burr of Eye volks suggesting that for name check purposes they’d like an interview.
The day before you get their letter every phone you own is being listened to live and recorded for FB committee review.
Then at the interview, based on the fruits of invasion, in case you sound really broke cause of law school debt, etc., based on their view of you as a devil’s advocate bureaucrat, as opposed to a Tom Paine patriot, they offer you additional money to keep your ears open for cases they might be interested in—the beginning of your corruption.
FBi doesn’t want to cease their back way into the data for the above reason, regardless of NSA. They are behind this.
Upon election to president I plan to pardon Ed Snowden and have him work in The White House
http://mchaelslevinson.com
9
" look at your Fed Burr of Eye, the legacy of J. Edgarina, the pharaoh of fascists."
I can not understand why Hoover's name was not removed from the FBI building long ago considering how corrupt he was.
I can not understand why Hoover's name was not removed from the FBI building long ago considering how corrupt he was.
1
Hoover kept a 4000 page file on none other than Eleanor Roosevelt because of her political views.
1
"Most senators seemed unaware of the significance of the provision that would curtail the ability of outside legal experts to weigh in on the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and block declassification of court rulings."
Our clueless congress.
Our clueless congress.
16
Let's all remember that obstruction cuts both ways. Mr. Paul has made it clear he will use procedural tactics to block funding for the U.S. Government and to allow us to default on the full faith and credit of the United States of America.
Get ready.
Get ready.
6
What Mr. Paul does is designed to benefit Mr. Paul. I don't believe he cares about the Constitution or the American people. He thinks this issue will make him seem like the leader he really isn't. He thinks it makes him look "courageous". He does these things to gain attention, and sadly, it works.
2
This may be a little off-topic but who names these bills anyway? The USA Freedom Act has about as much to do with our freedoms as The Patriot Act had to do with our patriotism. Every act enacted by this Republican Congress should begin with The Cynical..blah blah blah Act or end with the word Not.
33
Somehow, I don't think the "Shredding the Constitution Act" or the "We're Rescinding the Fourth Amendment Act" would have quite the same ring.
McConnell appears to have less control over his own party than even last year, but his real problem is his failure to anticipate and understand the Left-Right alliance that developed based upon collective disgust with NSA domestic spying. Rand Paul is a shameless opportunist but he McConnell's lunch on this one. McConnell does not merely appear clueless, but he genuinely is clueless and all those vaunted legislative skills he supposedly has are just so much hot air. Ineffective and incompetent do not make a pretty combination.
4
Its better than incompetent and effective.
1
Funny about all the scorn that is being heaped on the GOP when the only lawmakers from the other side of the aisle was a single democratic party lawmaker and a certain independent from Vermont.
Instead of mindlessly bashing the GOP we should be asking why the overwhelming majority of our elected representatives, including self-appointed liberal heroes like Elizabeth Warren, want to continue "Big Brother" spying on all of us.
Instead of mindlessly bashing the GOP we should be asking why the overwhelming majority of our elected representatives, including self-appointed liberal heroes like Elizabeth Warren, want to continue "Big Brother" spying on all of us.
74
The Senate Dems want the house bill. I would say this supports the Rep view.
4
Go to PBS .ORG and watch 'United States of Secrets'.Not a bashing of anyone just the politics/business behind this bill from it's inception...in 2001
The far right and the far left BOTH want dictatorial powers. It is up to the sane in the middle to prevent them from achieving their goals.
1
Politics have totally been turned on its head when the Tea Party is the group pushing for and succeeding in rolling back the Big Brother component of the Federal government. I guess that old saying "I thought I've seen everything," is certainly appropriate today.
3
Has anyone caught the Boston Herald article about the man being undersurveillance as a terror suspect? And we don't need any part of the Patriot act? Guess the police should have left him alone to do whatever or stab the police officers and the agents when they caught up with him?
1
That this made sense to you as you wrote it is alarming.
Hey, this is America. You are free to be as alarmed as you want.
Shame on Obama for asking that the Patriot Act be kept largely intact.
38
The defense hawks should move to North Korea where they can spy without any checks and balances whatsoever.
75
Obama first.
7
We need to rein in the NSA spying and stop creating a police state secretly. One should require a court order to gain access to phone records. This is what one of the courts said recently, that the NSA spying program is illegal. There is no reason that when you text someone, that who you texted be sent to the NSA. If we need to wiretap a terrorist, say Al Queda, ISIS, etc it would be easy to get a court order to wiretap and then have the information send to the NSA, military, FBI, local police, etc. Ordinary citizens should have privacy. In my opinion, secrecy and classification should not be used to cover up breaking the law. I am glad for people over the years who revealed this and stood up for the american people like Thomas Tamm, Mark Klein, Edward Snowden, Rand Paul, and others. I call for letting this illegal surveillance die and a pardon of Edward Snowden.
31
"pardon of Edward Snowden."
and erect a statue of him in front of the Congress building.
and erect a statue of him in front of the Congress building.
clear that mr. McConnell is the head of the senate but hardly a leader
watching republicans fight with each other should seal the notion that their's an opposition party. they oppose first and foremost and it doesn't matter who what and where.
watching republicans fight with each other should seal the notion that their's an opposition party. they oppose first and foremost and it doesn't matter who what and where.
3
So the surveillance bill is supposed to protect us from terrorism.
Two glaring, and totally different, reasons in today's news illustrate the NSA's failure to do what was intended.
First, the test of airport TSA screeners reported 95% failure of TSA screeners to correctly identify simulated explosives or other dangerous devices.
Second, the indictment of Dennis Hastert was enabled by the Patriot Act even though his alleged crime had nothing to do with terrorism.
My takeaway- the Patriot Act does not do what it is intended to do and also is being used for purposes other than preventing terrorism.
Two glaring, and totally different, reasons in today's news illustrate the NSA's failure to do what was intended.
First, the test of airport TSA screeners reported 95% failure of TSA screeners to correctly identify simulated explosives or other dangerous devices.
Second, the indictment of Dennis Hastert was enabled by the Patriot Act even though his alleged crime had nothing to do with terrorism.
My takeaway- the Patriot Act does not do what it is intended to do and also is being used for purposes other than preventing terrorism.
37
If we go back to 1999, there will be lots of guffaws in the radical Islam community. How long do you suppose it will take them to take advantage of us?
McConnell's desire to "strike a provision" reminds me of people who just don't know when to quit -- getting not quite as much of what he wants but getting something, he might find himself having preferred.
4
We have confronted with a paradox. The bill of rights 1789 is
inadequate when contemplating how to maintain freedoms and intercept rabid terrorists. On the one hand we are being stampeded into Orwell's nightmare of "the thought police" versus trying to catch terrorists before they can execute.
All of this is happening in the context of our imperfect government, absolute power corrupts.
Do nothing pretend it's 1789, and the terrorists win. Destroy our
privacy and rights and eventually the government will enslave us with this power.
inadequate when contemplating how to maintain freedoms and intercept rabid terrorists. On the one hand we are being stampeded into Orwell's nightmare of "the thought police" versus trying to catch terrorists before they can execute.
All of this is happening in the context of our imperfect government, absolute power corrupts.
Do nothing pretend it's 1789, and the terrorists win. Destroy our
privacy and rights and eventually the government will enslave us with this power.
1
Excuse me, but amending a "must pass bill?" So Senators have found a problem in a bill sent over by the House... But aren't our Senators arguing "too bad, the Senate must pass this as is, given what the House gave us?"
That is exactly what the Senate has argued at nauseam before --that they were powerless, powerless (!) when the House sent bills that had Food Stamps extensions removed, when financial aid to students was reduced, when unemployment assistance extensions expired, when consumer protections were weakened... and that the poor Senators had no choice than to take what the House gave them.
So the Senate is "powerless" when House bills throw ordinary Americans under the bus, but the Senate steps in hurried and frenetically when the military-intelligence-industrial complex has a minuscule amount of its revenue reduced! Oh my! We do know who owns the Senate!
That is exactly what the Senate has argued at nauseam before --that they were powerless, powerless (!) when the House sent bills that had Food Stamps extensions removed, when financial aid to students was reduced, when unemployment assistance extensions expired, when consumer protections were weakened... and that the poor Senators had no choice than to take what the House gave them.
So the Senate is "powerless" when House bills throw ordinary Americans under the bus, but the Senate steps in hurried and frenetically when the military-intelligence-industrial complex has a minuscule amount of its revenue reduced! Oh my! We do know who owns the Senate!
69
Rand Paul doesn't get it. He needs a wake up call and this just might be his Waterloo. I'll take my chances on the government listening in. I'd rather they err on the side of caution. In this case the safety of American citizens trumps personal privacy. Besides, there is no privacy in today's world. Every time I do a search on Google, I know my privacy has been usurped by a corporation Senator Paul seems more preoccupied with garnering votes by his actions, than really caring our privacy. Either he's clueless or just doesn't care. Perhaps he needs a step ladder to see the real world
3
Today's ABC News poll has Rand Paul tied for the lead. Try reading more, and hurling fewer insults.
5
You're welcome to give up your own privacy. You're not welcome to give up mine.
33
Senator Paul is finally standing up for what the U.S. is supposed to stand for a democracy that protects the rights of its citizens.
It is long overdue to debate and push back on the thought and police state.
When you ask the police and the NSA how much control they should have the answer will always be more.... if you want that go live in North Korea (just be careful not to fall asleep in front of the "dear leader"
It is long overdue to debate and push back on the thought and police state.
When you ask the police and the NSA how much control they should have the answer will always be more.... if you want that go live in North Korea (just be careful not to fall asleep in front of the "dear leader"
6
This is ridiculous - amendments in the House backed USA Freedom Act to keeping secret Court proceeding from outside Legal consultation and forever in "lock and key" - possibly outside the reach of the Public Information Act?
If Mitch McConnell was President pro tempore of the United States Senate, I would go out on a limb that Mitch McConnell is really Darth Sidious in disguise - biding his time before he took over Washington DC, a la Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith.
This article should have listed down the other names of these idiots in the Senate who would support these amendment - so the people in these states, they represent, could wake up and question if the terms of these clowns need to be cut short now before they "Jar Jar Binks" our Liberty away.
If Mitch McConnell was President pro tempore of the United States Senate, I would go out on a limb that Mitch McConnell is really Darth Sidious in disguise - biding his time before he took over Washington DC, a la Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith.
This article should have listed down the other names of these idiots in the Senate who would support these amendment - so the people in these states, they represent, could wake up and question if the terms of these clowns need to be cut short now before they "Jar Jar Binks" our Liberty away.
4
All of us who value our freedom and independence should be concerned about these surveillance laws, especially when viewed in the context of other dramatic changes that have taken place on a variety of levels, both political and socio-economic.
99% of all wealth in the United States is now concentrated at the very top of our economic pyramid. The top one percent now absorb 99% of all income produced in the United States. This is a radical departure from what existed just 25 years ago.
We've already witnessed the disastrous consequences of the Supreme Court's Citizens United decision, shaking the very foundation of our democracy. Could the wealthy elite be looking to solidify its position via further political manipulation?
The USA (anti-)Freedom Act, if allowed to largely remain intact, would also potentially give this same group the additional ability to use the federal apparatus in ways that could coercively control those who are identified as threats to the "status quo". Under such a web, constructive political change for the majority could become nearly impossible.
We must tread very carefully as we are now on very dangerous ground. We are giving the "few" far too much power to create a world that conforms only to their liking. This is clearly not the America that we have come to know and love.
99% of all wealth in the United States is now concentrated at the very top of our economic pyramid. The top one percent now absorb 99% of all income produced in the United States. This is a radical departure from what existed just 25 years ago.
We've already witnessed the disastrous consequences of the Supreme Court's Citizens United decision, shaking the very foundation of our democracy. Could the wealthy elite be looking to solidify its position via further political manipulation?
The USA (anti-)Freedom Act, if allowed to largely remain intact, would also potentially give this same group the additional ability to use the federal apparatus in ways that could coercively control those who are identified as threats to the "status quo". Under such a web, constructive political change for the majority could become nearly impossible.
We must tread very carefully as we are now on very dangerous ground. We are giving the "few" far too much power to create a world that conforms only to their liking. This is clearly not the America that we have come to know and love.
157
Agree with your point but not your stats:
the top 1%ers have 40% of US wealth and receive 20% of income. That would compare with 10% of income in Canada. Still bad, but 99%? Come on.
the top 1%ers have 40% of US wealth and receive 20% of income. That would compare with 10% of income in Canada. Still bad, but 99%? Come on.
The deliberately misnamed 'Patriot' Act has more in it than surveillance permits. It nullified habeas corpus! THAT's what everyone ought to worry about. I could live with a tiny bit of surveillance if it meant that rendition stopped and habeas corpus was once again whole and undamaged.
Mike B.
Your post is excelllent including your conclusion:
"We must tread very carefully as we are now on very dangerous ground. We are giving the "few" far too much power to create a world that conforms only to their liking. This is clearly not the America that we have come to know and love."
Your post is excelllent including your conclusion:
"We must tread very carefully as we are now on very dangerous ground. We are giving the "few" far too much power to create a world that conforms only to their liking. This is clearly not the America that we have come to know and love."
Can anyone seriously doubt the real motive behind these secret unconstitutional programs is to protect the illegitimate ruling plutocracy from the growing resistance of the American People?
42
This is the real problem, using terrorism as ab excuse to control people at the benefit not of our oligarchy but at the benefit of our "friends". Calling everybody terrorist indiscriminately and confuse the people.
The 4th amendment is important. It protects justice and allows for a more fair treatment of people. There is a huge danger in allowing the government to trample on this essential right.
19
A lot harder to actually govern and accomplish things than it is criticizing, obstructing and having just one goal - to defeat President Obama at every turn, isn't Senator McConnell?
23
It is far past time to run on about the Congress governing the country. That is the President's job, not theirs. It also is past time to criticize the Congress for not passing laws (or, as commonly, failure to pass laws the critic wants).
Under the Constitution, it is up to the Congress to pass laws that they think necessary to carry out the constitutional powers granted to the federal government. The sole criterion for "necessary" appears to be a majority (or in some cases, 2/3) vote. A bill that cannot collect at least a majority in each house is, by definition, not necessary in the Congress's combined view. Voters, if they think otherwise at the next election, can change the membership and perhaps get a result they like better.
Under the Constitution, it is up to the Congress to pass laws that they think necessary to carry out the constitutional powers granted to the federal government. The sole criterion for "necessary" appears to be a majority (or in some cases, 2/3) vote. A bill that cannot collect at least a majority in each house is, by definition, not necessary in the Congress's combined view. Voters, if they think otherwise at the next election, can change the membership and perhaps get a result they like better.
The defense hawks in the Senate, under the feckless "leadership" of Senator McConnell, are only playing to their future campaign efforts not America's security.
The Senate needs to get out of the way and do what they do best: absolutely nothing.
The Senate needs to get out of the way and do what they do best: absolutely nothing.
10
The US Government has had 14 years to amend the law and fix the known flaws. Congress hasn't done that, or even tried to fix it. We now have elected officials who have no qualms about shutting down the government if that furthers their political ends. Little wonder that We the People have little regard for our elected officials.
That being said, We the People have largely abdicated our responsibilities as the body that "Ordains the Government." The majority of voters do not vote and most of us vote our emotions not our intellect. Franklin warned us that we only have a democracy: "if we can keep it."
That being said, We the People have largely abdicated our responsibilities as the body that "Ordains the Government." The majority of voters do not vote and most of us vote our emotions not our intellect. Franklin warned us that we only have a democracy: "if we can keep it."
13
This is a VERY important issue that will potentially impact every American's life.
Unlike a gender change sideshow which seems to capture the imagination of ordinary citizens more than privacy/freedom. None of this is good for our nation.
It's a sorry state of priorities and double digit IQs.
Unlike a gender change sideshow which seems to capture the imagination of ordinary citizens more than privacy/freedom. None of this is good for our nation.
It's a sorry state of priorities and double digit IQs.
16
We don't need this, we don't want, and it's time for it to go.
Remember how all this got started by Bush, it's Third Reich stuff. He learned it from his GrandPa Prescott, the notorious financier of Hilter's regime.
Also please know that before Bush the title was National Security but afterwards it was Homeland Security; the same terminology used by the Third Reich.
Remember how all this got started by Bush, it's Third Reich stuff. He learned it from his GrandPa Prescott, the notorious financier of Hilter's regime.
Also please know that before Bush the title was National Security but afterwards it was Homeland Security; the same terminology used by the Third Reich.
7
And Obama signed the extension and expansion of these same abuses, via RoboPen.
1
"All of this got state by Bush" - really?
Ever hear about the WW I Cypher Bureau, Alexander Michelle Palmer, censorship during WW I and WW II, Joe McCarthy, the founding of the NSA in 1952, J. Edgar Hoover - and that is just a sample from the 20th century.
Because Rabbi, the fact is that domestic spying has been going on a lot longer than the last decade and a half and few of us were ever concerned about this until it became fashionable for the political left and libertarian set to make it into political fodder.
Ever hear about the WW I Cypher Bureau, Alexander Michelle Palmer, censorship during WW I and WW II, Joe McCarthy, the founding of the NSA in 1952, J. Edgar Hoover - and that is just a sample from the 20th century.
Because Rabbi, the fact is that domestic spying has been going on a lot longer than the last decade and a half and few of us were ever concerned about this until it became fashionable for the political left and libertarian set to make it into political fodder.
"All of this got started by Bush" - really?
Ever hear about the WW I Cypher Bureau, Alexander Michelle Palmer, censorship during WW I and WW II, Joe McCarthy, the founding of the NSA in 1952, J. Edgar Hoover - and that is just a sample from the 20th century.
Because Rabbi, the fact is that domestic spying has been going on a lot longer than the last decade and a half and few of us were ever concerned about this until it became fashionable for the political left and libertarian set to make it into political fodder.
Ever hear about the WW I Cypher Bureau, Alexander Michelle Palmer, censorship during WW I and WW II, Joe McCarthy, the founding of the NSA in 1952, J. Edgar Hoover - and that is just a sample from the 20th century.
Because Rabbi, the fact is that domestic spying has been going on a lot longer than the last decade and a half and few of us were ever concerned about this until it became fashionable for the political left and libertarian set to make it into political fodder.
2
All of us who value our freedom and independence should be concerned about these surveillance laws. There have been dramatic changes on a variety of levels, both political and socio-economic.
99% of all wealth in the United States is now concentrated at the very top of our economic pyramid. The top one-tenth of one percent now possess more wealth than the bottom eighty percent. The top one percent now absorb 99% of all income produced in the United States. This is a radical departure from what existed just 25 years ago.
Now that the wealth has been redistributed in the manner described above, could the wealthy elite be looking to solidify its position via political manipulation? The wealthy elite now can exert enormous influence over the political system, further enhancing their political and economic advantages.
We've already seen the disastrous consequences of the Supreme Court's Citizens United decision, shaking the very foundation of our democracy.
The USA Freedom Act, if allowed to largely remain intact, would potentially give this same group the additional ability to use the federal apparatus in ways that could coercively control those who are identified as threats to the "status quo", thereby perhaps preventing our political system of producing the kind of political change that its citizens demand.
We must tread very carefully. We are now on very dangerous ground. We are giving the "few" far too much power to create a world that conforms only to their liking.
99% of all wealth in the United States is now concentrated at the very top of our economic pyramid. The top one-tenth of one percent now possess more wealth than the bottom eighty percent. The top one percent now absorb 99% of all income produced in the United States. This is a radical departure from what existed just 25 years ago.
Now that the wealth has been redistributed in the manner described above, could the wealthy elite be looking to solidify its position via political manipulation? The wealthy elite now can exert enormous influence over the political system, further enhancing their political and economic advantages.
We've already seen the disastrous consequences of the Supreme Court's Citizens United decision, shaking the very foundation of our democracy.
The USA Freedom Act, if allowed to largely remain intact, would potentially give this same group the additional ability to use the federal apparatus in ways that could coercively control those who are identified as threats to the "status quo", thereby perhaps preventing our political system of producing the kind of political change that its citizens demand.
We must tread very carefully. We are now on very dangerous ground. We are giving the "few" far too much power to create a world that conforms only to their liking.
17
Another "showdown"? In the Senate? Good grief, what will they do next? Can you imagine how many "showdowns" are going to take place between now and the election? I believe we are being punished.......
4
Sen. Paul is handing Sen. McConnell a gift on a silver, albeit cocaine encrusted, platter, and McConnell is laughing all the way to the den where he keeps his inlaws away from prying eyes and surveillance of out anti drug crusaders. It is a bit disingenuous for McConnell to act like he does not want to end the oversight. I am sure the Chows are heaving big sighs of relief while they count their monies from their nefarious shipping connections. How much did they pay into Sen. Paul's presidential campaign to make sure this issue goes away
Collection of phone data is no different than collecting footage from a camera in a store. The information, which is infinite in quantity, will be sorted when an occasion arises. The paranoia about our govt is just that. We need government, we need law, we need social responsibility, taxes and the FDA. And we have a court system and constitution to protect us if needed. Most people I talk to seem to understand the importance of using these records for protecting us. We are the people, we are the government, Of the people, by the people and for the people. (with apologies for occasional mess ups)
Wrong. Stores are in public places. My phone calls, email messages, texts are private. You are not allowed to see them, nor should the Government. The Internet was not invented so we could be more easily spied on by our Government.
As for the constitution protecting us-- it has a 4th Amendment that states searches cannot be made without probable cause. That means unless you are suspected of a crime no one can be compelled to collect or stop your data.
The government is paranoid. The People merely expect the Government to follow the Constitution.
As for the constitution protecting us-- it has a 4th Amendment that states searches cannot be made without probable cause. That means unless you are suspected of a crime no one can be compelled to collect or stop your data.
The government is paranoid. The People merely expect the Government to follow the Constitution.
15
Let's face it. This is all about domestic surveillance of Americans. The rich guys and their govt. lackeys are figuring out that they might have overplayed their hand and they need to keep their weapons to preempt any citizen movements that may sprout. The last thing they want is the left and right talking to each other and figuring out who the enemy truly is.
16
For libertarians, it’s the middle-class version of stop and frisk.
8
The one glimmer of hope that I see today is that at last there is at least some focus on the FISA Court, which should be abolished. Federal District judges are perfectly capable of issuing warrants that will become poublic after they have been served.
The whole notion of a secret court consisting of secret federal judges who issue secret rulings that can never appealed is as much an assault on the Constitution as the NSA digging through the private communications of every American.
The whole notion of a secret court consisting of secret federal judges who issue secret rulings that can never appealed is as much an assault on the Constitution as the NSA digging through the private communications of every American.
19
"'My advice is, take the bill and pass it, and send it to the president to keep America safe,' Mr. McCarthy said."
In other words, let's maintain blanket surveillance on the American people in spite of their Constitutional rights, and in spite of the fact that none of this intrusion over the past fourteen years has thwarted even one single criminal act.
I'd say its time for the people to stop indulging the fear mongers. We are free, and life is safe enough already. We need to tell these politicians to get lost.
In other words, let's maintain blanket surveillance on the American people in spite of their Constitutional rights, and in spite of the fact that none of this intrusion over the past fourteen years has thwarted even one single criminal act.
I'd say its time for the people to stop indulging the fear mongers. We are free, and life is safe enough already. We need to tell these politicians to get lost.
15
I wonder if the "security agencies" had warrants when they bugged J. Robert Oppenheimer? Law enforcement agencies are themselves lawless so whatever expires or is put in place the spying will continue. If there's something "they" want to know about you they already do.
5
Looks like the best that defenders of Liberty can hope for is that the amendments pass and the bill stalls in conference committee. Even if most of Congress won't overtly stand up for a restoration of Liberty by opposing the USA Freedom Act the least they can do is let it die quietly and posture all they want.
21
Curious if this congress would put half the effort into repatriating some of the oversees jobs lost and creating incentives designed to help the working class as the effort they are putting into keeping power over surveilling the working class in this country, where we would actually be? Sadly, im afraid that their constituents are no longer the focus; its about power over the constituency they're more interested in.... all under the guise of "security".
27
Its all 'smoke and mirrors.'
4
What a circus. The whole meta data issue should be a nonissue. It's pointless, useless, expensive and invasive. It's an attempt to inject a slow poison into the vein of a free country, and every citizen in the U.S. should resist it by demanding the end to it.
180
I'm a liberal Democrat, and I love our President, but on this issue I'm with Senator Paul. It's great to have someone who remembers what the Fourth Amendment says. Thanks, Rand.
448
Given the fact that Barack Obama lied to you from 2007-2015 about his opposition to NSA spying and the Patriot Act, clearly the one thing you don't love about Barack Obama is his integrity.
Because the President doesn't have any.
Because the President doesn't have any.
6
It is sad when one see that the only ones who are truly concerned about domestic spying are 12 GOP lawmakers, a single independent and a lone Democratic Party senator.
4
You can't be a liberal Democrat, that party is as corporate and conservative as the Republicans. I was once a Democrat, for many years, but no more. If you are as you say, liberal, come on over and support Bernie.
7
Supporting domestic blanket spying on US citizens does not make one a "defense hawk"; it makes one a Constitution-shredding authoritarian.
339
Does any serious objective person really believe that President Obama is a "Constitution-shredding authoritarian?"
If you spent just two weeks listening to those CIA briefings every morning you would most likely agree with President Obama and support this program.
If you spent just two weeks listening to those CIA briefings every morning you would most likely agree with President Obama and support this program.
1
Nicely put, Jim. You are right.
All I can think is "The Terrorists Won"
Look at what we've become because of one act of terror.
They supposedly hated us because we are so free.
Well, Congress took a hell of a lot of freedom away with the "Patriot" Act. I wonder how many more freedoms will be taken with the "Freedom" Act.
Look at what we've become because of one act of terror.
They supposedly hated us because we are so free.
Well, Congress took a hell of a lot of freedom away with the "Patriot" Act. I wonder how many more freedoms will be taken with the "Freedom" Act.
166
"They supposedly hated us because we are so free."
and freely meddle in the affairs of their countries.
and freely meddle in the affairs of their countries.
Maybe the tough guys the Senate can explain how mass gathering of data from all Americans, without reasonable suspicion of a crime, or a search warrant, squares with the 4th Amendment to the Constitution. Until that happens, I'll just assume they're being paid by someone to subvert our liberties.
187
We are all considered guilty until proven innocent. We are all suspects, we just haven't been arrested yet.
These laws are about government control of us. The agencies abuse of these powers remains unchecked. Congress is the lap dog of Big Brother (Corporate -Government interests) and seek to justify this control for our "safety".
86
The Republicans look like the keystone cops.
Leadership offering solutions is hard.
Complaining and fear mongering on cable news ...not so much. Looks like the GOP's true colors are showing. All hat and no cattle.
Leadership offering solutions is hard.
Complaining and fear mongering on cable news ...not so much. Looks like the GOP's true colors are showing. All hat and no cattle.
50
How can we call ourselves a free nation yet we have the govt intruding on our lives. We are no better than Putin Russia. Come on Americans let's wake up and get our freedom back like our founding fathers fought for please Americans.
28
Actually, Putin wishes his autocratic regime could spy on its own citizens with the capabilities of the NSA. The USA has so far outpaced the Russians, and the only difference is, the US lies to its citizens about its true nature.
No longer a government by and for the people, indeed, the exact opposite. Good work, sheeple.
No longer a government by and for the people, indeed, the exact opposite. Good work, sheeple.
3
There is a terrific upside to this current debate. We have Republicans fighting Republicans to see who can take away the most liberty from the American people. Long live the hypocrisy of small government espoused by the right.
98
Obama is putting a lot of pressure on Congress to maintain this constitutionally intense level of pervasive surveillance. Does that make him a Republican?
6
Did you even examine the vote?
98% of Democratic Senators voted FOR this.
56% of Republican Senators voted AGAINST this.
98% of Democratic Senators voted FOR this.
56% of Republican Senators voted AGAINST this.
It's good to see that at least some Republicans have principles and care about democratic process. If we put security above all else this will no longer be the United States.
22
"Get smart". Time to bring back the "Cone of Silence". Investors get your money out.
4
The Senate Republican hawks like Lindsey Graham are basically prostitutes
for Israel Lobby billionaire Sheldon Adelson, who dumped $150 million into the 2012 campaign. With his massive ego, casino owner and self-educated foreign policy guru Sheldon thinks every terrorist is after him-- especially after he publicly called for the Pentagon to nuke Iran to protect Israel.
Sheldon is the one the hawks are protecting --not America. And they will happily destroy the US Constitution if it will get them a few more $million of his donations. The same hypocrites who appeal to rural voters with two-faced claims of supporting the Second Amendment are at the same time creating a tyranny behind the scenes.Their unrestrained corruption is a far bigger threat to the American People than a foreign enemy could ever hope to be.
for Israel Lobby billionaire Sheldon Adelson, who dumped $150 million into the 2012 campaign. With his massive ego, casino owner and self-educated foreign policy guru Sheldon thinks every terrorist is after him-- especially after he publicly called for the Pentagon to nuke Iran to protect Israel.
Sheldon is the one the hawks are protecting --not America. And they will happily destroy the US Constitution if it will get them a few more $million of his donations. The same hypocrites who appeal to rural voters with two-faced claims of supporting the Second Amendment are at the same time creating a tyranny behind the scenes.Their unrestrained corruption is a far bigger threat to the American People than a foreign enemy could ever hope to be.
120
I can't wait to watch Miss Lindsay debate Mr. Fiorina.
Imagine if Sheldon Adelson had less money. Who would pay attention to his opinions? Would presidential candidates fee the need to hear from him and express their agreement? So what is it that his money buys? Clearly it is that agreement. It's not that money is speech; money is a bribe accompanying speech.
2
"which would rein in surveillance authority" lies... damn lies
11
If it weren't such a deadly serious topic - government spying on citizens - I would be getting much more pleasure in seeing the Republicans fighting against each other, with the democrats sitting on the sidelines cackling.
Hawks will be hawks. It is always easier for an extremist (i.e. hawk) to defend an absolutist position, than it is to defend a nuanced approach. That's true in politics, religion, and lots of other places.
The problem for the Republican party leadership is that they have gotten used to extremism and cannot abide even a whiff of nuance.
Hawks will be hawks. It is always easier for an extremist (i.e. hawk) to defend an absolutist position, than it is to defend a nuanced approach. That's true in politics, religion, and lots of other places.
The problem for the Republican party leadership is that they have gotten used to extremism and cannot abide even a whiff of nuance.
8
Does that make Obama a Republican with his love of surveillance and killing people with drone strikes?
The Liberal Left got fooled with Obama and just cannot admit it.
The Liberal Left got fooled with Obama and just cannot admit it.
4
The Boston Marathon bombing proves we cannot be everywhere to prevent terror. Someone with a tiny hsndhelf laser pointer can crash more airliners than with s box cutter.
13
ENOUGH. We're supposed to be living in a free society, yet people are screaming to allow our government to spy on us. Allowing spying on American citizens doesn't make us safer, and I refuse to surrender precious liberties simply to pacify the unwarranted fears of the masses.
This and all the other treasonous legislation passed since 9/11/2001 needs to be repealed ASAP, and the supporting legislators arrested and tried for treason against the United States and the American people.
This and all the other treasonous legislation passed since 9/11/2001 needs to be repealed ASAP, and the supporting legislators arrested and tried for treason against the United States and the American people.
276
They aren't spying on us. They are spying on those who they believe to be a terror threat. They collect data from everyone, but can only access that which is related to their investigation, and they need a judge to approve that.
You and so many others are very misinformed.
If you aren't engaged in terrorism you have nothing to worry about...
You and so many others are very misinformed.
If you aren't engaged in terrorism you have nothing to worry about...
1
I'd settle for convicting for violating their oath of office and then banned for life from holding public office...
1
The majority of people are screaming to STOP our government from spying on us.
Our government has used 9/11 and the paid Media to create a "Need to Protect" and their idea of what constitutes "Fear", to quickly create a series of legislative actions, and political maneuverers that were shoved through the Congress and signed into law. We blame George W. Bush. But the real culprits can be found in the Nixon-Ford administrations. History 101.
Our government has used 9/11 and the paid Media to create a "Need to Protect" and their idea of what constitutes "Fear", to quickly create a series of legislative actions, and political maneuverers that were shoved through the Congress and signed into law. We blame George W. Bush. But the real culprits can be found in the Nixon-Ford administrations. History 101.
As I've repeatedly said, there is one way and one way only, to pass a surveillance bill, and each and every member of Congress, and our President knows it; pass a Bill that enshrines within it, absolute adherence to our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.
Anything less is an illegal act perpetrated by our government, and would be a clear statement that our government and its executive, our President, is not interested in representing the people.
At that point we would be subjects in a dictatorship, a form of government in which one person or a small group possesses absolute power without effective constitutional limitations.
No other way to say it.
Anything less is an illegal act perpetrated by our government, and would be a clear statement that our government and its executive, our President, is not interested in representing the people.
At that point we would be subjects in a dictatorship, a form of government in which one person or a small group possesses absolute power without effective constitutional limitations.
No other way to say it.
165
Are you saying that the Bill of Rights and the Constitution must be read, in your context, literally? Or are Supreme Court interpretations also to be part of your idea. What does "absolute adherence" mean? Are you espousing Scalia's, et al originalist insanity?
The Republicans blamed the dysfunctional government on Obama. Now that they have both the House and Senate who will they blame the current dysfunction on? Great way to convince the American public that we also need a Republican president. Good luck with that one.
66
What 'extension of the blackout of surveillance ' they are talking about? Is it possible to spy more than they do? If it is than what national security may even exist if any advanced hacker has an opportunity to find out the data about all US citizens?
8
Is this bill a "gravy train" bill or does anyone have the voters interest in mind?
10
So now it appears that the FBI is flying surveillance planes across thirty cities intercepting cel-phone traffic. Any debate in congress must include this intrusion into the lives of all of us. Is the US out of public control and does this government have any sense of decency left?
187
Left and right need to come together on this. Yes, we both love the 4th amendment and miss it terribly. Yes, we are of one mind on this as Americans.
Too late, and this bill is smoke and mirrors, they'll still do what they do now.
1
But wait the Senate just passed the Freedom Act, a phony bill that changes nothing at all. All your info will still be amassed, but you will be protected by the Secret Court. Just call it the Freedom act and all is will. By the way i do have a bridge for sale. You want it?
4
Why are laws of such importance drafted with so little public debate? Maybe it's us. We love to talk about whether or not Snowden is a traitor, but we find it actually rather boring to discuss the details of specific laws.
26
DOA. If this thing had any chance, it never would have come to this. Now that it has expired, the sense of immediacy is eroding and the whole debate is devolving into finger pointing and grand standing. There is no way forward from here. In a couple of weeks they'll be sweeping up the pieces as they consider ways to reauthorize the less contentious provisions. Bulk collection of phone data is over for good, and good riddance.
83
I would like to believe that, but I don't think I can.
Look what our corrupt government achieved since 9/11, with essentially everyone in Congress, both parties, and Presidents in full agreement.
They did it in secret, all of it, and from what I can glean, there are several other deeply secret programs, that nearly no one, except for a select few know about, one such being the FBI's National Security Awareness Center.
This one is truly scary, and few know about it -
See excerpt and link from Wired:
"Headquartered in Crystal City, Virginia, just outside Washington, the FBI’s National Security Branch Analysis Center (NSAC) maintains a hodgepodge of data sets packed with more than 1.5 billion government and private-sector records about citizens and foreigners, the documents show, bringing the government closer than ever to implementing the “Total Information Awareness” system first dreamed up by the Pentagon in the days following the Sept. 11 attacks."
http://www.wired.com/2009/09/fbi-nsac/
Look what our corrupt government achieved since 9/11, with essentially everyone in Congress, both parties, and Presidents in full agreement.
They did it in secret, all of it, and from what I can glean, there are several other deeply secret programs, that nearly no one, except for a select few know about, one such being the FBI's National Security Awareness Center.
This one is truly scary, and few know about it -
See excerpt and link from Wired:
"Headquartered in Crystal City, Virginia, just outside Washington, the FBI’s National Security Branch Analysis Center (NSAC) maintains a hodgepodge of data sets packed with more than 1.5 billion government and private-sector records about citizens and foreigners, the documents show, bringing the government closer than ever to implementing the “Total Information Awareness” system first dreamed up by the Pentagon in the days following the Sept. 11 attacks."
http://www.wired.com/2009/09/fbi-nsac/
4
I so hope you are right!
What assurance do we have for that? The NSA operates completely in the dark, managed by people who think they know what is best for the security of our country. I don't believe that there is any way to be sure that they are not spying on American citizens short of dismantling their organization.
5
These programs have not only failed to catch terrorists, they have failed to catch terrorists in the act. This is not a trade-off between privacy and security, because it has not gained us any security at all. Only undermined our rights.
The USA Freedom act has been significantly watered down from its original version. We'd be better off if the Senate didn't pass anything at all. I hold out some slim hope that failing to do anything is one of the few things that Congress seems to be good at lately.
I note that other agencies, such as the DEA, have long been getting their phone metadata from AT&T -- as reported by the NYT -- without warrants and without any access to this particular program. Instead of trying to invent new authorizations for new access, we should be looking at overstepping. Why does the FBI need to hide its aerial surveillance behind shell companies? Why did the US Marshals Service need to seize Stingray (cell site simulator) documents from local police to prevent them from being handed over under a court order? Why do local prosecutors have to drop cases rather than allow testimony about Stingray use? Why is the DEA able to get phone metadata without warrants?
There are a lot of serious issues that need oversight and public discussion, instead of giving credence to administration fearmongering about the loss of this program that has never saved a single life.
The USA Freedom act has been significantly watered down from its original version. We'd be better off if the Senate didn't pass anything at all. I hold out some slim hope that failing to do anything is one of the few things that Congress seems to be good at lately.
I note that other agencies, such as the DEA, have long been getting their phone metadata from AT&T -- as reported by the NYT -- without warrants and without any access to this particular program. Instead of trying to invent new authorizations for new access, we should be looking at overstepping. Why does the FBI need to hide its aerial surveillance behind shell companies? Why did the US Marshals Service need to seize Stingray (cell site simulator) documents from local police to prevent them from being handed over under a court order? Why do local prosecutors have to drop cases rather than allow testimony about Stingray use? Why is the DEA able to get phone metadata without warrants?
There are a lot of serious issues that need oversight and public discussion, instead of giving credence to administration fearmongering about the loss of this program that has never saved a single life.
418
These programs are not intended to catch terrorists -- 9/11 was on the radar but no one was looking. They're intended to create a STASI state in America. Just take a look at the Will Smith/Gene Hackman movie "Enemy of the State" or "The Lives of Others".
2
As I read it, nothing is changed except that intelligence agencies will now spend a lot of money on employees tasked to ask judges to allow them to see records held by private companies. No change, just increased costs.
Did one person in America not make a phone call last week that they'd make yesterday while the system was down? Yes, terrorists.
Did one person in America not make a phone call last week that they'd make yesterday while the system was down? Yes, terrorists.
2
"These programs have not only failed to catch terrorists, they have failed to catch terrorists in the act."
Sorry but you have absolutely no way of knowing this and I have heard reports that multiple attacks have been prevented both here and overseas.
I don't think the TSA has found single terrorist!
Sorry but you have absolutely no way of knowing this and I have heard reports that multiple attacks have been prevented both here and overseas.
I don't think the TSA has found single terrorist!
1
I have read the 9 amendments to the Freedom Act proposed by Sen Wyden and Sen Paul. They all make sense to me.
14
Where can they be found?
I thought Republicans love liberty and limited government.
Defense hawks who love government spying are hypocrites.
Defense hawks who love government spying are hypocrites.
222
They do, in the House. The Senators appear to be mostly RINOs.
2
@David: You think Republicans love liberty and limited government? Except for 100% spying on the American people and getting themselves involved in every woman's uterus, yeah, they're for limited government. I agree, they are hypocrites.
5
Hypocracy in the hallowed halls of congress? Oh the nerve of them!
Does anyone else feel that the Senate's real constituency is Booz Allen?
I hope everyone keeps track and is willing to vote for the individuals who actually care about what the American people want and need.
I hope everyone keeps track and is willing to vote for the individuals who actually care about what the American people want and need.
124
The latest breaking story concerns FBI over flying citizens and trolling for cell phone activity.
When are we going to say "Enough"!
We also hear that TSA is an unmitigated failure and hat millions of innocent citizens have been subject to invasive searches for basically nothing. And no one is accountable.
It is seeming more and more like an us versus them relationship between citizens and the government.
Bad bad bad
When are we going to say "Enough"!
We also hear that TSA is an unmitigated failure and hat millions of innocent citizens have been subject to invasive searches for basically nothing. And no one is accountable.
It is seeming more and more like an us versus them relationship between citizens and the government.
Bad bad bad
233
The whole "Homeland Defense" act is noting more than another Federal Jobs Program the costs billions and produces nothing of value.
13
No kidding. All they seem to do in DC is to build troughs for political hacks to feast at.
3
Where is Custer when we need him?
1
The "Defense Hawks" are former (?) Military personnel in Congress attempting to empower the expansive Military Empire from within. The N.S.A. is Military.
17
Most of those pushing for more spying and limitations of our Constitutional rights are not former military, but "chicken hawks", that is those who want wars to profit from, but who either won't serve (Cheney) or influence their children serve (Clinton). Then there are the dustbowl nut cases like Sen Cotton.
5
McCain and the new Presidential Candidate Graham come to mind as energetic proponents of extreme military power and they are military veterans in powerful positions in Congress.
Pardon me but Obama could close the spying thing down with a pen stroke. No conspiracies necessary here.
This is what government is all about: pounding it out. This sort of debate is something America seems to shun, which is almost always a bad thing.
Just imagine if Obamacare had been subject to the same sort of back-and-forth instead of being rammed through the house and senate by the Democrats.
Just imagine if Obamacare had been subject to the same sort of back-and-forth instead of being rammed through the house and senate by the Democrats.
3
yes, here are democrats discussing ideas supported by republicans. When did the republicans attempt to discuss Obamacare or even the need for serious healthcare modification? Never! Their only interest was destroying anything the president wanted. They got out in front of any discussion and poured gasoline and lit a match. From that point on, Americans were denied proper understanding of the bill; all they heard was death-panels and socialist healthcare.
15
'“My advice is, take the bill and pass it, and send it to the president to keep America safe,” Mr. McCarthy said.'
And that is a Republican who just wants to pass the bill under the guise of "protecting America" and apparently without due diligence.
And that is a Republican who just wants to pass the bill under the guise of "protecting America" and apparently without due diligence.
2
What if single-payer had been allowed to stand? -- rather than murdered on the alter of "hey, the folks across the aisle aren't going to go for anything makes the already-too-rich insurance companies compete."
Both sides can play this game.
Both sides can play this game.
9
Nothing could be better for all Americans than to extend the surveillance blackout permanently. The NDSA, the White House and Congressional hawks need to get over their paranoia.
153
You have to wonder how much of the activity going on is related to corporate lobbyists who are trying to protect lucrative contracts for data gathering and the like. Elizabeth Warren said lobbyists are at every meeting concerning Congress and Senate bills, and go through every bill with a fine tooth comb. This bill can't be an exception.
342
So if your hero Elizabeth Warren was so "concerned" about lobbyist influence why was she among the 83 senators that voted for cloture which will send this thoroughly misguided bill to a likely passage?
Just for the record here is the list from this morning vote - from the senate.gov website - that shows who are the real heroes that are truely concerned about our government spying on Americans:
Barrasso (R-WY) Cotton (R-AR) Crapo (R-ID) Enzi (R-WY)
Ernst (R-IA) Moran (R-KS) Paul (R-KY) Risch (R-ID)
Roberts (R-KS) Rubio (R-FL) Sanders (I-VT) Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL) Udall (D-NM)
Also, my dear poster from California, you might notice how many of those "concerned" lawmakers with a (D) after their name or who caucus with the Democratic Party are on the above list.
So Poet McTeagle, you might want to hold your praise for Elizabeth Warren who is neither courageous or wise to the ways of being an effective lawmaker in the U.S. Senate.
Just for the record here is the list from this morning vote - from the senate.gov website - that shows who are the real heroes that are truely concerned about our government spying on Americans:
Barrasso (R-WY) Cotton (R-AR) Crapo (R-ID) Enzi (R-WY)
Ernst (R-IA) Moran (R-KS) Paul (R-KY) Risch (R-ID)
Roberts (R-KS) Rubio (R-FL) Sanders (I-VT) Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL) Udall (D-NM)
Also, my dear poster from California, you might notice how many of those "concerned" lawmakers with a (D) after their name or who caucus with the Democratic Party are on the above list.
So Poet McTeagle, you might want to hold your praise for Elizabeth Warren who is neither courageous or wise to the ways of being an effective lawmaker in the U.S. Senate.
6
continuous activity......
The US Government is the enemy of its citizens.
5
It is rather amusing to witness Senate Majority "Leader" Mitch McConnell being schooled by senators with far less seniority, particularly his fellow-Kentuckian Rand Paul. What the erudite and accomplished senior senator from Kentucky is finding out is that Sen. Paul is far less concerned with the government's collection of citizens' telecommunications data than he is in marking territory to distinguish his presidential candidacy from his rivals'. Sen. McConnell is being played, used by so-called defenders of free speech who are now painting him into a corner and casting him as weak on national security. It isn't true, of course, but who's listening? This is all about next year's campaign.
8
You joking, right? "Erudite and accomplished" would never be in the same sentence with "the senior senator from Kentucky" if you hadn't just made it all up.
7
I wonder where this issue ranked in the concerns listed by their respective constituents.
2
It will be very insightful to all who are interested in this topic and by the comments there are many who are,and I feel we all are.We are all interested in how and why our governing body operates in the manner they do.
This program will insight . It will make you ask yourself questions about this topic/issue from 2001 to 2015.
For me I ask the question 'Is Edward Snowden Guilty Of treason/espionage?' Watch this program.....you'll learn somethings you may not have known(or perhaps you do).