After 9/11, the real freak out was the anthrax mailed to congress, media and just folks that killed five people. It was the weaponizing of our mail that got the Patriot Act passed without even being read. The Patriot Act has nothing to do with stopping the next attack. It has everything to do with monitoring and controlling US citizen behavior. If the US wanted to stop the next attack it would confront Saudi Arabia, stop the divide and rule strategy to contain the Shias, stop the funding of moderate "rebels" in Syria, Libya, Yemen or wherever, stop the support of Chechen "rebels" and of groups like the Azov battalion in Ukraine. But since each of these groups represents a strategic interest-oil, shipping, pipeline, whatever- we will continue to use terrorists around the world to further our goals guaranteeing that events like the Boston Marathon bombing will happen in the future. The FBI knew Tsaernov and it didn't make any difference. Instead we have 175,000 pages of law on the federal register growing every day and a great big police state.
2
Are not many of these same hawks the ones who wanted sainthood for Edward Snowden? I am so sick of politics and professional egos in the race for power. There really is no patriotic representation any longer in our elected bodies.
The danger is mission creep with the spy agencies. Had it not been for leaks we would not know how the Patriot Act was secretly and illegally expanded to collect mass data. If that Act is simply extended, as Senator McConnell wants, this will be a green light to secretly increase those agencies violations of our privacy.
The NY Times was right on the money with its call to let the Patriot Act expire. Now, let's not resurrect it as it was.
The NY Times was right on the money with its call to let the Patriot Act expire. Now, let's not resurrect it as it was.
Oh goody, can't wait to see how many and what kind of last minute/second unrelated amendments get snuck into this bill that virtually no one in Congress will have time to read or vote on.
1
In 1993 the first trade center bombing was solved though old fashion police work, not super surveillance. Since 9/11 massive surveillance has not solved any crimes or prevented any that we are aware of. Of course the government says that it has, but we can't know the details. Trust us they say, the government would never lie or mislead the people.
The FISA court has approved every single surveillance request by the government, in effect becoming simply a rubber stamp. We were told that only phone numbers were being collected. Then it came out that the contents of calls were also being stored. Then we were told that no one would listen to that content without a court order. Then we discover that this was a true statement, but a misleading one. Computer programs sweep content and and are programed to focus on certain words. So the machine listens, not a person.
It's amazing that so many Americans who condemned the spying on its citizens by the East German STAZI readily accept similar measures here. The East Germans spied on their citizens because they feared internal unrest. These various domestic spy programs in the US are initiated under the guise of protection from terrorism, but the real reason is to control domestic unrest from a population that is in a slow downward economic spiral and may one day wake up to why that is. But for the Snowden revelations we wouldn't even know as much as we do now, and this from an administration that pledged openness and transparency.
The FISA court has approved every single surveillance request by the government, in effect becoming simply a rubber stamp. We were told that only phone numbers were being collected. Then it came out that the contents of calls were also being stored. Then we were told that no one would listen to that content without a court order. Then we discover that this was a true statement, but a misleading one. Computer programs sweep content and and are programed to focus on certain words. So the machine listens, not a person.
It's amazing that so many Americans who condemned the spying on its citizens by the East German STAZI readily accept similar measures here. The East Germans spied on their citizens because they feared internal unrest. These various domestic spy programs in the US are initiated under the guise of protection from terrorism, but the real reason is to control domestic unrest from a population that is in a slow downward economic spiral and may one day wake up to why that is. But for the Snowden revelations we wouldn't even know as much as we do now, and this from an administration that pledged openness and transparency.
1
Prior to 9-11 our rights to privacy against unlimited surveillance were protected. The FBI and other domestic law enforcement had to have probable cause to suspect that a citizen had committed a crime to get a court order permitting surveillance. Evidence admissible in court had to be shown to a judge.
The CIA, previously operating exclusively outside the US, does not and did not concern itself with evidence of crime (already committed). It was, and is, concerned with prevention, not prosecution. Therefore, actions taken by the CIA are motivated by the desire to prevent future events.
This difference in focus came into conflict after 9-11 because fear dominated over justice. Unlimited surveillance against citizens and approval of torture and assassination to prevent crime was the result of the struggle between the two different goals--justice for acts already committed, and prevention of future acts.
Retired CIA officer, Henry Crumpton, discusses this conflict in his book. When asked if unlimited surveillance should be continued he dodged and offered a hypothetical scenario: A terrorist with the motive and means comes to your community, intent on killing everyone in town. Another terrorist, already apprehended, has knowledge that could prevent the mass murder. Would you want enhanced interrogation techniques used to extract this knowledge?
Look at his focus. It’s the omniscient Big Brother, our loving protector, at work.
The CIA, previously operating exclusively outside the US, does not and did not concern itself with evidence of crime (already committed). It was, and is, concerned with prevention, not prosecution. Therefore, actions taken by the CIA are motivated by the desire to prevent future events.
This difference in focus came into conflict after 9-11 because fear dominated over justice. Unlimited surveillance against citizens and approval of torture and assassination to prevent crime was the result of the struggle between the two different goals--justice for acts already committed, and prevention of future acts.
Retired CIA officer, Henry Crumpton, discusses this conflict in his book. When asked if unlimited surveillance should be continued he dodged and offered a hypothetical scenario: A terrorist with the motive and means comes to your community, intent on killing everyone in town. Another terrorist, already apprehended, has knowledge that could prevent the mass murder. Would you want enhanced interrogation techniques used to extract this knowledge?
Look at his focus. It’s the omniscient Big Brother, our loving protector, at work.
I don't favor access to our phone records by security agencies, but if granting said access will prevent us from another invade and occupy scenario, where the intent is to convert an Islamic country to a Western democracy, please, take my phone records.
I suggest every American send their monthly phone bill to Senator McConnell and President Obama. For the cost of a postage stamp and an envelope the problem goes away, not to mention that it improves the USPS bottom line.
These ninnies act like they can't do anything now. If they need to spy on a U.S. Citizen, all they have to do is get a warrant, just as our constitutional protections dictate. Plus, they can spy on foreigners at will.
What bothers me is that these politicians have cleverly limited any debate to phone records. They conveniently forget to mention that the government is also gathering data on your travel, your banking, your internet use, etc.
If what Rand Paul says is true, that in 99% of the cases the phone data was used for investigating domestic crimes, not terrorism - something they promised they would not do - it should be shut down just for that reason alone.
All of this vacuuming of data about US citizens should be illegal without just cause.
What bothers me is that these politicians have cleverly limited any debate to phone records. They conveniently forget to mention that the government is also gathering data on your travel, your banking, your internet use, etc.
If what Rand Paul says is true, that in 99% of the cases the phone data was used for investigating domestic crimes, not terrorism - something they promised they would not do - it should be shut down just for that reason alone.
All of this vacuuming of data about US citizens should be illegal without just cause.
2
The only aim of this bill is to have the possibility to bring into court the data that was collected by surveillance or other sorts of spying.
It's too naive to think that the NSA won't be using it's secret resources if it has such possibility. There are dozens of international and inner American programs that were created to develop spying.
It's too naive to think that the NSA won't be using it's secret resources if it has such possibility. There are dozens of international and inner American programs that were created to develop spying.
CYBERWARFARE Nowhere in the debates about the NSA have I read anything that addresses what is an ongoing form of warfare. The Pentagon and National Nuclear Security Agency both are the targets of 10 million cyber attacks per day. What will it take to get people to realize that to defend the country in cyberspace, the strategies are proactive. After all, the number of attacks on government websites is a bit less than 500,00 per Hour! 24/7! I think that given the number of attacks, the President, as Commander in Chief, could define NSA activities as military defense and place the NSA under the authority of the military. That's something that everyone should want to avoid! Beware the military-industrial complex! Congress, in this matter, has, once again, demonstrated that its activities have little if anything to do with national security; nor, for that matter, with basic governance. Relying upon governmental institutions designed for the speed of things in the 18th century won't cut it in the 21st. I'd just love to hear the howling and watch the frothing at the mouth if the President were to assert his authority and define the problem as a matter of national defense. But guess what--he doesn't have to announce anything. The President can deem the use of NSA data collection to be top secret. Where would that leave us? The absurdity of the current gridlock rivals Monicagate for its irrelevance to defense. And we all remember what was one outcome. 9/11!
Why don't the President and the hawks propose to do away with the 4th amendment (unreasonable searches and seizures) through the constitutional amendment process?
Or is the Constitution and the whole notion of "We, the People" passe?
Or is the Constitution and the whole notion of "We, the People" passe?
a cowering fearful people, are getting to get what they richly deserve. a war mongering police state, a shameful place with a dark future.
I'm certainly not a hawk, far from it, as war is an abomination and never a thing that ever needs declared, but participation in warfare only as defense as I surely believe my family, my friends, my society needs to be preserved, kept safe, but it is an insanity to not use whatever devices are available to prevent an attack by the insanity that infests the world. Infest is the right word as it is like a virus, an abominable thing hard to eliminate! The Patriot Act needs reformed but the bedlam over "metadata" collected is absurd. Also it might be useful to change the title of the Act. What does patriotism have to do with it all anyway? The government is not looking at the millions upon millions of emails or listening to phone calls a day. Just imagine!!! People need to get a grip on reality! If collection of such data is left up to communications providers or commercial corporations, It is more likely we would be more at risk! They already watch our buying habits!!! I'm more in favor of stopping that! But if calls and emails are passing between terrorists who would do us harm, then they need to be found out!
We are all Guilty before having to prove our innocence.
Haste makes waste.
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but there is always time to do it over.
Now I understand why the people hate Obama so much. I don't, but I sure don't like him anymore. Ya on ya own there prez.
Haste makes waste.
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but there is always time to do it over.
Now I understand why the people hate Obama so much. I don't, but I sure don't like him anymore. Ya on ya own there prez.
As I've repeatedly said, there is one way and one way only, to pass a surveillance bill, and each and every member of Congress, and our President knows it; pass a Bill that enshrines within it, absolute adherence to our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.
Anything less is an illegal act perpetrated by our government, and would be a clear statement that our government and its executive, our President, is not interested in representing the people.
At that point we would be subjects in a dictatorship, a form of government in which one person or a small group possesses absolute power without effective constitutional limitations.
No other way to say it.
Anything less is an illegal act perpetrated by our government, and would be a clear statement that our government and its executive, our President, is not interested in representing the people.
At that point we would be subjects in a dictatorship, a form of government in which one person or a small group possesses absolute power without effective constitutional limitations.
No other way to say it.
What's too seldom mentioned is that the phone metadata collection program historically hasn't helped stop terrorists. One reads about the program's effectiveness occasionally, but it ought to be front and center in the debate. If it's not effective in achieving its goals, and is unconstitutional as one court has decided, why continue it? The same sort of argument applies to the use of torture. Another article was bemoaning what was perceived to be a conflict in a poll concerning what Americans think about surveillance. They don't want the phone surveillance, but think that the government isn't doing enough to protect them. That is not a conflict - it's a reflection of the judgement that phone surveillance doesn't help.
1
Why does anyone think that turning this data over to private telecoms is a positive alternative? I don't want AT&T and Verizon et al to have this information even for one second. I have never believed that collecting massive amounts of data was the most efficient way to get information on possible terrorist acts. Edward Snowden was right to expose the actions of our country and I think it is time to stop labelling him a traitor and to allow him to come home. I would even go so far as to suggest a ticker tape
parade. In the meantime, let's not create another blunder within this blunder by giving the results of this surveillance to big business.
parade. In the meantime, let's not create another blunder within this blunder by giving the results of this surveillance to big business.
1
Bernie Sanders' position on the Patriot Act and illegal surveillance is consistent, Patriotic and courageous and the Times ignores him. No more needs to be said about how nonsensical news media coverage of this debate has become in our country. Our news media is either terrified of the intelligence community or terrified of the actual debate.
1
This is a Kabuki dance because what congress does is really theater for the public. It doesn't mean anything. Snowden revealed that the NSA operated above the law. The hearing on CIA torture revealed that no one significant got punished and the psychologists involved got rewarded to the tune of 83 million for using Communist Chinese practices from the Korean War. It is not government by the people for the people. You do not have to fool all the people all the time, just the flag waving majority who are oblivious to who really runs things. It's friends and family, similar to Communist China.
So let me get this straight, Americans trust corporations more than their own government when it comes to surveillance even with all the checks and balances on that government while corporations have no restrictions to speak of.
1
Every click of your mouse and every purchase made on a credit card is tracked and logged. Your facial features are now accurately cataloged if you've ever been tagged in a picture. Safeway, Giant, and Harris Teeter could all send you a grocery bag every week with exactly what you want in it based on what they know of your purchases. You've been convinced that GPS is a good thing in your phone and your camera, and now you're an unpaid map-making worker and a collector of free images and their locations, all while being tracked on an hourly basis. An ever expanding list of businesses gets your address from a place you ordered something, and your junk mail mysteriously grows and grows to include places you never knew existed. But they know very about your existence, and no one minds because it's all for the sake of that Great American Sacred Cow, commerce.
This is Federalizing all the Phone Companies. Do you realize that?
Senate Hawks are former (?) Military empowering a military N.S.A. to spy on all Americans. Do you all have your ears to the rails like I do?
Remember, the last survey for TSA, 94% of devices got through, you read about how surprised the CIA is about ISIS, all the billions we spend on security...gone for naught.....people are not doing their jobs, no accountability, zip, nada. The CIA is now another Army, not an intelligence service
As tragic as 911 was, most of those people were on no-fly lists and were still allowed on the planes.....and just in the past few days the threat propaganda is everywhere, bomb threats, this and that...keep the gravey train going, keep everyone is fear of what? You....
What a mess we have allowed our country to become, and it's not O'bama's fault either...
As tragic as 911 was, most of those people were on no-fly lists and were still allowed on the planes.....and just in the past few days the threat propaganda is everywhere, bomb threats, this and that...keep the gravey train going, keep everyone is fear of what? You....
What a mess we have allowed our country to become, and it's not O'bama's fault either...
the three Joes again - McCarthy, Stalin, Goebbels - all laughing in their graves
Thank God for Presidential term limits. The greatest president in my generation has lost his way. Authentic Democrats want nothing to do with TPP and the hegemonic income inequality police state America has become. Enjoy your mass surveillance and corporate fixation, Mr. President.
Will be glad to see you go, Mr. President. Every day you're losing the confidence of millions of progressives and doing damage to the Democratic Party. Can't wait for your exit stage right Mr. President. What you have become is not what you once were. Your mother would not be proud of you - now. Nor your father.
Will be glad to see you go, Mr. President. Every day you're losing the confidence of millions of progressives and doing damage to the Democratic Party. Can't wait for your exit stage right Mr. President. What you have become is not what you once were. Your mother would not be proud of you - now. Nor your father.
On The Media has an excellent and brief segment on how The (odious) Patriot Act was passed. I suggest anyone who cares about the country listen to it. Also watch Independeent Lens' "1971".
The Phone Companies are being formally Nationalized, you know, like in Communism.
1
Why is Bernie Sanders featured among 'what other candidates have said' below Rand 'flip/flop' Paul, Billary "War Hawk" Clinton, and Jeb "I'm not my brother, but I am just the same" Bush?
Senator Sanders voted against the original USA Patriot Act as a congressman and has consistently voted against it in the House and Senate. Why then does the paper or record put him below the digital fold as it were?
Senator Sanders is being treated like a second class candidate despite outdrawing and out fundraising the clown car gang of unlikely wannabes that get treated like serious candidates by the DC Villagers and the establishment talking heads.
It is the job of the newspapers to report the news- not shape it.
Senator Sanders voted against the original USA Patriot Act as a congressman and has consistently voted against it in the House and Senate. Why then does the paper or record put him below the digital fold as it were?
Senator Sanders is being treated like a second class candidate despite outdrawing and out fundraising the clown car gang of unlikely wannabes that get treated like serious candidates by the DC Villagers and the establishment talking heads.
It is the job of the newspapers to report the news- not shape it.
13
why are we discussing Bernie sanders? Most don't know who he is other than some old guy trying to put his name in the media in order to enhance his legacy
It sickens me the way that these spy-mongers are using fear to take away our constitutional rights to privacy and freedom. Our parents and grandparents and all the generations before them faced far worse threats than ISIS and Al Qaeda. They bravely fought epic wars against tyranny where millions died in the fight for liberty. We on the other hand have ONE terrorist attack in 2001 and here we are 14 years later still in a constant state of hysterical fear that another attack MIGHT happen. We sign away our rights to privacy like a bunch of cowards. KEEP CALM, CARRY ON people.
10
"National security" has become the prelude to, and code for, fascism. Rather than drastically reassess and rearrange American foreign policy, largely responsible for the international hostility generated against America, the policy invites still further terrorism and still further suppression of civil liberties at home.
Listen to our leaders, from Obama on down, a shrillness no longer detectible because of the atmosphere built up! This is a frightening period, one far worse than McCarthyism, that America as we once knew it may not survive. Yes, Republicans and their Neanderthal ways are acting as expected. But now Obama with his bulldozing of opponents bears all the earmarks of a dictator. Heaven help us in future.
Listen to our leaders, from Obama on down, a shrillness no longer detectible because of the atmosphere built up! This is a frightening period, one far worse than McCarthyism, that America as we once knew it may not survive. Yes, Republicans and their Neanderthal ways are acting as expected. But now Obama with his bulldozing of opponents bears all the earmarks of a dictator. Heaven help us in future.
8
Yes he is for all intents and purposes, a dictator, and he now has all the tools in place to ensure he and his successors remain so.
And to think the above statement is from a former supporter, who supported him twice, in both elections, and financially too ...
Unless sanity prevails, and the few clear thinking individuals left in government resist being co-opted, our goose is cooked.
And to think the above statement is from a former supporter, who supported him twice, in both elections, and financially too ...
Unless sanity prevails, and the few clear thinking individuals left in government resist being co-opted, our goose is cooked.
Keep the program closed.
NSA domestic espionage serves absolutely no purpose other than to eviscerate the Fourth Amendment, undermine the US Constitution, empower NSA criminals, and enrich NSA contractors.
NSA domestic espionage serves absolutely no purpose other than to eviscerate the Fourth Amendment, undermine the US Constitution, empower NSA criminals, and enrich NSA contractors.
5
None of the major publications have published polls on what Americans think. The economist poll showed 60% of Americans are against mass data collection of American citizens. But the media both liberal (NYT) and Conservative (WJS) are all for the patriot act. what gives?
4
"Lawmakerss In France Move to Vastly expand Serviellance" is the title of an article published by this paper on May 5,2015. Revisit it and you will see that even a European (Read Liberal) country reacted in exactly the way the U.S. did when attacked by terrorists.
3
A Republican Senator (Rand Paul) once again grandstanding government to a halt, with a Republican Senate Majority Leader (Mitch McConnell) once again failing on his promise "to govern," all regarding a flawed, overzealous bill that emerged from the last Republican Administration.
Connect the dots.
Connect the dots.
8
Rand Paul appears to represent the country, on this surveillance issue -- not on gay marriage, not on abortion, not on many other things perhaps -- but on surveillance. So why don't the others in DC -- senators, representatives, the President -- understand this? The gulf between DC and the nation is receiving a lot of comment -- Mitch McConnell is a leading poster-boy for that. This surveillance-chaos on Capitol Hill, Paul appearing as the lone profile-in-courage standing up for us-against-the-fearmongers, shows that gulf has become a chasm. DC needs to listen better.
19
The same Rand Paul who was going to look into whether the federal government planned to take over Texas since it was having military exercises down there. The same Rand Paul who believes in the religious freedom to discriminate and considers gay marriage a moral crisis. The same Rand Paul who tried to attach an amendment on fetal personhood to a flood bill and cares nothing about women's basic right to medical privacy.
A loon is a loon is a loon, and there are very ugly consequences to all the anti-government rhetoric and paranoia that is being propagated. Tinfoil hats come in all sizes. Bulk collection of data will end in the bill that Rand Paul is opposing.
A loon is a loon is a loon, and there are very ugly consequences to all the anti-government rhetoric and paranoia that is being propagated. Tinfoil hats come in all sizes. Bulk collection of data will end in the bill that Rand Paul is opposing.
This appears to be political theater without any substance. It is almost inconceivable that the Federal government is not maintaining its surveillance systems in place with alternative statutory authorities, while the Senators go on with their oratory. I mean, really!
5
Really !!
Surely you can't believe that the all-encompassing surveillance stopped in accordance with the unlawful secret laws they enacted to satisfy themselves; they've been breaking the laws of our land from the beginning, and they continue to do so.
Power is now concentrated in the hands of the corporate / government alliance, and that will never be allowed to change, unless the people take to the streets in tens of millions and show this government where the power really exists.
Surely you can't believe that the all-encompassing surveillance stopped in accordance with the unlawful secret laws they enacted to satisfy themselves; they've been breaking the laws of our land from the beginning, and they continue to do so.
Power is now concentrated in the hands of the corporate / government alliance, and that will never be allowed to change, unless the people take to the streets in tens of millions and show this government where the power really exists.
Yes, in fact one Diane Roark (Google same) was on C-Span last night fully informed on the nonsense Kabuki aspect of this histrionic attempt to shut down one small aspect of one known NSA program while similar insults to the Fourth Amendment and the American people have been perpetrated by an assortment of spy agencies known and unknown over no less than the past twenty years. The cancer has metastasized throughout the body politic, democracy is dying and current elected officialdom has collectively no interest in saving the nation as once conceived in liberty, etc . . .
Have we not gone tire of hearing the same ole same ole?
It's about the money. I say leave us ordinary folks alone and send under cover agents to get the bad guy over seas. Sounds silly that we are not trying to do this first.
It's about the money. I say leave us ordinary folks alone and send under cover agents to get the bad guy over seas. Sounds silly that we are not trying to do this first.
6
Yes, the money is exactly what it's about, not good detective work and interagency cooperation which would have cracked nearly all the terror cases. There's billions to be made from the government spooks who rotate to Booz Allen/Carlyle and others and then back again cheerleading for more useless toys and ineffective programs.
Regardless on how this turns out, in addition to the so called "Senate Hawks", out Nobel peace Prize winning President was also for renewal of all provisions of the Patriot act. Another disappointment as part of a growing list of disappointments.
Honestly, I do not see the reason why the GOP, and its supporters, are so against Mr. Obama. With few exceptions, he has towed the GOP line. From the Affordable Care Act, the so called "stimulus", so called "Wall Street reform", conducting drone warfare, and embracing the Patriot Act.
In the end, we got the worse of both the Clinton and Bush Administrations (going back to 1989). To make this worse, his administration still has 19 months to go. And to think, voters may put another Bush or Clinton in the White House to continue the damage. but, at least the wealthy, and welll connected, will have a field day.
Honestly, I do not see the reason why the GOP, and its supporters, are so against Mr. Obama. With few exceptions, he has towed the GOP line. From the Affordable Care Act, the so called "stimulus", so called "Wall Street reform", conducting drone warfare, and embracing the Patriot Act.
In the end, we got the worse of both the Clinton and Bush Administrations (going back to 1989). To make this worse, his administration still has 19 months to go. And to think, voters may put another Bush or Clinton in the White House to continue the damage. but, at least the wealthy, and welll connected, will have a field day.
11
While I agree that President Obama has been relatively hawkish in the national security arena, I find it difficult to understand your statement that the he has "towed a GOP line" with regards to ACA. What did you mean by that? Also, what is your contention with the Patriot Act or more narrowly the N.S.A. surveillance powers that are currently being debated in the Senate?
4
Here let's listen to Obama's Contention out of his own mouth before he was elected.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RQvKQGzcoc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RQvKQGzcoc
1
"Clowns to the Left of me, Jokers to the Right. . . ."
This is all about a few hundred employees of the NSA carrying out a Congressionally authorized statute, all the while never disclosing the secrets of any citizens.
How many more millions of Americans committed the Federal felony of bank fraud by lying on their mortgage applications? Time to round them up while we've still got them all on tape laughing about it with their friends and families. Let me be the first to suggest hard time on the rock pile with a forty pound sledge hammer and no mercy.
How many more millions of Americans committed the Federal felony of bank fraud by lying on their mortgage applications? Time to round them up while we've still got them all on tape laughing about it with their friends and families. Let me be the first to suggest hard time on the rock pile with a forty pound sledge hammer and no mercy.
2
Carmel, CA is pretty upscale san diego suburb. How did you get so rich to live there? Wait let me guess, you got the guy who knows the guy that gave you the competitive edge to bring you the money you'd need to live where you are.
You should know about favor trading by now and you should know about profiling a client to get cooperation and favor. I'm just guessing with phone records I could prolly find someone that you'd believe what they tell you.
You should know about favor trading by now and you should know about profiling a client to get cooperation and favor. I'm just guessing with phone records I could prolly find someone that you'd believe what they tell you.
9
How many terrorist plots has bulk data collection disrupted?
Bulk data collection, roving wiretaps?
The FBI all but ignored two warnings from Russia about suspect #1 in the Boston Marathon terror attack.
The system wasn't just blinking red for God's sake!
Now, Comey thinks it might be a good idea to partner with local law enforcement. Ya mean like what Mueller should have done with the Boston PD?
I'm convinced that the FBI has devolved since 911.
Bulk data collection, roving wiretaps?
The FBI all but ignored two warnings from Russia about suspect #1 in the Boston Marathon terror attack.
The system wasn't just blinking red for God's sake!
Now, Comey thinks it might be a good idea to partner with local law enforcement. Ya mean like what Mueller should have done with the Boston PD?
I'm convinced that the FBI has devolved since 911.
10
President Obama said in 2013 over the Patriot Act: "If people cant trust the executive branch, but also don't trust Congress and don't trust federal judges ...
then we're going to have some problems here."
We the People have now learned that all three branches of government have furtively conspired for seven years to violate our privacy,so, no, we don't trust any of them. And, yes, that is a Huge problem.
then we're going to have some problems here."
We the People have now learned that all three branches of government have furtively conspired for seven years to violate our privacy,so, no, we don't trust any of them. And, yes, that is a Huge problem.
15
I second your opinion.
Never thought I would have reason to praise a Republican, but kudos to Rand Paul on this one and shame on the President....
20
Unless you're a terrorist, you have no reason to worry about the NSA looking at the meta-data from your cell phone calls. Edward Snowden is a traitor deluded into thinking he's some kind of libertarian hero.
7
Rand Paul was successful at one thing only, and that was using his position as Senator and using the hungry media platforms to campaign for his bid for presidency without having to spend a dime of his own money. And he insults the American people by assuming that we do not recognize his insulting scheme. He doesn't give a damn about anything except self-promotion.
5
You don't know much about the Paul's, father or son, do you?
Why is it the non-establishment candidates are ignored by the media? Fox doesn't even include Rand Paul in their polls. The NYT refuses to even acknowledge Bernie Sanders.
We need to elect a person that is not completely beholden to the entrenched parties and donors. If their name is Bush or Clinton, it just means they are proven to tow the line. Either one would be the last thing this country needs.
Why is it the non-establishment candidates are ignored by the media? Fox doesn't even include Rand Paul in their polls. The NYT refuses to even acknowledge Bernie Sanders.
We need to elect a person that is not completely beholden to the entrenched parties and donors. If their name is Bush or Clinton, it just means they are proven to tow the line. Either one would be the last thing this country needs.
I am a librarian, and I have been appalled by the USA PATRIOT Act since it was first passed. Section 512 is especially onerous, but there are so many other vaguely defined portions that almost anything done by a U.S. citizen can be defined as a "terrorist act" should the government so desire. I disagree with Rand Paul on many points, but on this, we're completely in agreement. It's time to drive a wooden stake through the heart of this monstrosity.
30
I for one am far more worried about how extemists will use explosives for acts of terrorism than I am about how the NSA might use metadata from my cell phone calls.
10
"Give me Liberty or give me death". I guess that sentiment is a bit passe. Of course if you prize your life over your liberty you will end up with neither.
9
Misdirecting the issue and posing false alternatives doesn't work. The capabilities were in place and the Boston bombings still happened. When you run across individuals who obviously have gone beyond their law enforcement duties and start digging around because someone's attitudes and social standing don't match up with what they find acceptable, usually meaning it causes them to go to some trouble and it annoys them, the person whose liberties are violated up to and including unjust incarceration, could be you.
8
What is the big deal with the NSA collecting times, numbers, and duration of calls? Also, just because a specific case cannot be cited to justify the use of these surveillance powers does not directly imply that they have no value. And the occurrence of the Boston Marathon bombings isn't in of itself something that can justly repudiate the use of metadata collection.
2
It is really amazing how easy those in power can manipulate societies with cheap propaganda. This whole charade we are witnessing is noting more than kabuki theater.
Bottom line: The surveillance police state (which is intertwined with private, for-profit corporations) will not only continue to function, but it will in fact expand and become more entrenched.
Mass collection of data will continue apace. The data will be stored in massive databases which will be mined by the national security state. Aside from the purported reason for the collection of this data, "fighting terrorism," the data will also be used to keep building dossiers on more and more individuals and groups, including anti-corruption and social justice activists.
Those dossiers are going to be used for illegal surveillance of groups exercising their constitutionally-protected rights, if activities by these groups threatened corporate profits.
This is already happening (right now), and has been happening for a long time. National security and corporate representatives currently share information from Fusion centers all over the country. There have been many leaks and reports on how social justice activists have been targeted for surveillance by national security and corporate collaborative groups.
Bottom line: The surveillance police state (which is intertwined with private, for-profit corporations) will not only continue to function, but it will in fact expand and become more entrenched.
Mass collection of data will continue apace. The data will be stored in massive databases which will be mined by the national security state. Aside from the purported reason for the collection of this data, "fighting terrorism," the data will also be used to keep building dossiers on more and more individuals and groups, including anti-corruption and social justice activists.
Those dossiers are going to be used for illegal surveillance of groups exercising their constitutionally-protected rights, if activities by these groups threatened corporate profits.
This is already happening (right now), and has been happening for a long time. National security and corporate representatives currently share information from Fusion centers all over the country. There have been many leaks and reports on how social justice activists have been targeted for surveillance by national security and corporate collaborative groups.
10
Cite examples please, with conclusive proof the NSA leaked this info.
3
You are absolutely correct, and for Cheri, Chicago, there have been several examples, the first we were told of was the spying on Petrobras, to gain access to their proprietary deep sea drilling technology, for the benefit of American oil companies.
And take a look at the following "internal audit", performed by the NSA itself, reported in the Washington Post, August 8, 2013.
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/national/nsa-report-on-privacy-vio...
The recent unanimous finding by the three judge appeals court that the all-all-encompassing surveillance is illegal, is all the proof we need.
And take a look at the following "internal audit", performed by the NSA itself, reported in the Washington Post, August 8, 2013.
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/national/nsa-report-on-privacy-vio...
The recent unanimous finding by the three judge appeals court that the all-all-encompassing surveillance is illegal, is all the proof we need.
So much extreme political rhetoric, lets just hope the terrorists never start working with the hackers who seem to own any piece of the internet they want!!
3
Frankly, many of the commenters appear to be ignorant of the provisions of the amended Patriot Act. There will no longer be bulk collections of data and there are a number of other provisions that limit or end other considerations.
Some of this is just anti-government paranoia. The fact that Rand Paul is the lead ranter given his super conservative views should serve as a warning. Pretty soon people will be rushing down to protect Texas from the federal government's military exercises, and be watching for the black helicopters and blue helmets.
Denial is all very well, but ISIS is actively recruiting in this country, including lone wolf terrorists. That is factual. I am generally a liberal on most issues and strongly opposed many of the Patriot Acts past provisions, such as torture and other violations, but this is moving into crazy territory. Look at your phone bill list of numbers called: that is ALL that would be collected. No one cares about your conversations unless you are a terrorist.
Some of this is just anti-government paranoia. The fact that Rand Paul is the lead ranter given his super conservative views should serve as a warning. Pretty soon people will be rushing down to protect Texas from the federal government's military exercises, and be watching for the black helicopters and blue helmets.
Denial is all very well, but ISIS is actively recruiting in this country, including lone wolf terrorists. That is factual. I am generally a liberal on most issues and strongly opposed many of the Patriot Acts past provisions, such as torture and other violations, but this is moving into crazy territory. Look at your phone bill list of numbers called: that is ALL that would be collected. No one cares about your conversations unless you are a terrorist.
5
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist..."
Because I was not a Socialist..."
1
who are the terrorists? do they not include our government that
has done such atrocities world wide that we now feel fearful?
Not in my name thankyou.Yet who asked me when these meglo
maniacs invaded the globe in order to get oil or whatever...gold ,diamonds
water in Figi .Give me a break.we are many and many are
disgusted with the old rhetoric .It's like the wizard of oz, wow it's just
an old tiny man behind that curtain.
has done such atrocities world wide that we now feel fearful?
Not in my name thankyou.Yet who asked me when these meglo
maniacs invaded the globe in order to get oil or whatever...gold ,diamonds
water in Figi .Give me a break.we are many and many are
disgusted with the old rhetoric .It's like the wizard of oz, wow it's just
an old tiny man behind that curtain.
I keep wondering about the part that goes "...and the land of the brave."
Just how brave are we in the U.S.? Having gotten rid of the draft so nobody (certainly, nobody with much money) has to fight, we're quickly heading towards no privacy (except, of course, for the NSA and other government agencies).
Just how brave are we in the U.S.? Having gotten rid of the draft so nobody (certainly, nobody with much money) has to fight, we're quickly heading towards no privacy (except, of course, for the NSA and other government agencies).
7
Like a stopped clock shows the correct time twice a day, Rand Paul is wrong on almost every major issue except for two:
1. The Patriot Act has nothing to do with Patriotism and everything to do with compromising our right to privacy.
2. The role of American Military should be limited to acts that defend our nation's safety and security-----not policing the world as a business plan supporting neocon fantasies and/or the criminal war profiteers.
Pretty much everything else Rand Paul says proves that he is ignorant of macro economics and world affairs. On the two points above, he seems to have stumbled upon the truth. Occasionally, the truth comes from strange sources.....
1. The Patriot Act has nothing to do with Patriotism and everything to do with compromising our right to privacy.
2. The role of American Military should be limited to acts that defend our nation's safety and security-----not policing the world as a business plan supporting neocon fantasies and/or the criminal war profiteers.
Pretty much everything else Rand Paul says proves that he is ignorant of macro economics and world affairs. On the two points above, he seems to have stumbled upon the truth. Occasionally, the truth comes from strange sources.....
14
Interesting that a Republican "stumbled on the truth", while President Obama happily allowed the NSA to continue spying on citizens.
You do know that the NSA answers to, and must follow the orders of the President, right?
You do know that the NSA answers to, and must follow the orders of the President, right?
7
@James -- Your comment reflects my own view precisely. I believe the majority of the country shares it: we are built upon our civil liberties, they are our most important values. My chief concern is why our political leadership -- both parties -- does not appear to appreciate this, now. Why must we fall back upon an extremist, like Rand Paul, to represent our views on this surveillance issue? Why haven't our other political leaders spoken up?
Reminds me of Churchill's comment, about a fellow politician:
"He occasionally stumbles on the truth, but he quickly picks himself up and proceeds as if nothing had happened."
"He occasionally stumbles on the truth, but he quickly picks himself up and proceeds as if nothing had happened."
I lived 20 years in DC, from Kennedy to Carter. I know about pretty much everything that exists in politics...a lot more than the pundits, I would like to think.
Yet, aside from all that, both Paul and Sanders intrigue me to no end. Clinton is an interminable bore. So are all the "other" Republicans, who were so appropriately characterized by Harry Reid as "all losers".
I wish I could have my druthers. A presidency commanded in creative dissonant synchronization by both Sanders and Paul. I like business - and socialism too. How can we meld the two?
Such is life, as it is in America. I am only a small reflection of it. And I live 100 miles south! HA!
Sigh.
Yet, aside from all that, both Paul and Sanders intrigue me to no end. Clinton is an interminable bore. So are all the "other" Republicans, who were so appropriately characterized by Harry Reid as "all losers".
I wish I could have my druthers. A presidency commanded in creative dissonant synchronization by both Sanders and Paul. I like business - and socialism too. How can we meld the two?
Such is life, as it is in America. I am only a small reflection of it. And I live 100 miles south! HA!
Sigh.
5
How long has the Patriot Act been in existence and during that time how many cases of abuse or misuse have occurred? I've always thought it a very good idea not to yell ouch until it hurt!
1
"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance."
The patriot act should have been called"operation barn door" and the house measure should be called "operation little barn door" . W. Used to say "they hate us for our freedom". We allassumed he was talking about Al-Qaeda. It turns out he was talking about the N.S.A.
13
Did W. actually say that? It can be quite revealing of his strategy. If they hate us for our freedom, they'd love us when we don't have it any more.
But I guess reality has proven it wrong. They still behead our citizens, after we borrowed trillions to mimic them. Time to restore American confidence and be a leader?
But I guess reality has proven it wrong. They still behead our citizens, after we borrowed trillions to mimic them. Time to restore American confidence and be a leader?
What the heck are you talking about?
our freedoms ? they the infidel teehee didn't care for being
destroyed : ie homes, land ,family et al.
Answer is don't invade a sovereign nation .Just don't do that.
our freedoms ? they the infidel teehee didn't care for being
destroyed : ie homes, land ,family et al.
Answer is don't invade a sovereign nation .Just don't do that.
This is breathtaking that the United States Senate is actually attempting to do something!
4
There are many here who would say it is necessary in order for us to feel safe. I wouldn't surrender my constitutional freedoms like some conservatives seem all to willing and ready to do in order to "Feel Safe". I find is extremely odd that if asked you would hear the average conservative espouse extreme mistrust of Government and yet most are perfectly willing to give up the simple act of obtaining a warrant, especially the rubber stamp on of the FISA court to allow the government to collect their personal data and trust it won't be misused. By making us give up our freedoms the terrorists that we would stop have already won.
17
1. Rand got the media exposure he wanted.
2. Let's remind ourselves that our President vocally embraces the questionable practices of the NSA too.
2. Let's remind ourselves that our President vocally embraces the questionable practices of the NSA too.
6
Indeed. Violating the Constitution in the name of homeland security has bipartisan support.
8
No, let _us_ remind the _President_ of that.
If, in fact, as President Obama has said, some (unspecified) provisions of the egregiously mis-named Patriot Act are necessary, then let's debate them, one by one -- not hide them in a massive package that Congress should pass wholesale. What is so important that it can't be evaluated and debated? Isn't that American Constitutional liberty exactly what any "Patriot Act" should be designed to encourage and protect?
17
jim emerson - You've got to pass it before you know what's inside it.
2
The secrecy is Mitch McConnell: he scuttled the trade bill because of that, by mistake -- now he is using it again to try to sneak this bill through -- the Senate needs to dump him and his tactics.
@tired of hypocrisy:
Your also probably too tired to read the act contents on Wikipedia like the rest of us do.
Your also probably too tired to read the act contents on Wikipedia like the rest of us do.
Thank you Senator Paul. Let Section 215 of the Patriot Act expire.
10
How will liberals accumulate intelligence? What agencies will conduct itelligence and will they only use methods approved by the Courts? How will they coordinate with other agencies? Who determinates who leads in an investigation? Do they work in concert with overseas intelligence and if not are they empowered to act in a covert operations? How will
funding be determined? Will this be considered law enforcement agency and if so is the head a cabinet level position?
Next, if you don't want collection of data what specific methods would you use to gather it? Search warrants? Since they are based on probable cause evidence how is it presented to the court? And since this is the case just what are you willing to do to gather it? Who pays for these investigators?
Finally just how would YOU keep us safe? What methods would you ploy to ensure we are safer in the future? You're all full of criticism and complaining about the 4th Amendment. Fine, do it better and specifically tell me how. Prove it. Otherwise give it a rest
funding be determined? Will this be considered law enforcement agency and if so is the head a cabinet level position?
Next, if you don't want collection of data what specific methods would you use to gather it? Search warrants? Since they are based on probable cause evidence how is it presented to the court? And since this is the case just what are you willing to do to gather it? Who pays for these investigators?
Finally just how would YOU keep us safe? What methods would you ploy to ensure we are safer in the future? You're all full of criticism and complaining about the 4th Amendment. Fine, do it better and specifically tell me how. Prove it. Otherwise give it a rest
1
Why, HealedByGod, are you worried about liberals? Why did you "take your eye off the ball" -- Sen. Rand Paul, a Kentucky ultra-conservative?
9
.
Just a reminder, "HealedByGod": 9/11 happened during a REpublican Administration, an Administration which ignored the intelligence handed to them by the immediately previous liberals.
Just so you can identify them, remember the guys with the balanced budget?
-dlj.
Just a reminder, "HealedByGod": 9/11 happened during a REpublican Administration, an Administration which ignored the intelligence handed to them by the immediately previous liberals.
Just so you can identify them, remember the guys with the balanced budget?
-dlj.
7
The burden is on you, not where you place it -- the voters do not have to prove that repressive legislation is _not_ needed, Congress must prove to the voters that it _is_... and it must prove it to the courts... Your concern for "safety" appears to be overriding your belief in civil liberties: but, "a nation that would sacrifice its liberty for its security will have neither".
For once in a long while a Senator, acting on principle, single-handedly held up a vote to protect the interests of all Americans, rather than just the very wealthy and powerful. I would never vote for Rand Paul in a million years, but in this case my hat's off to him. Thank you Senator Paul.
21
Were we safe before 9/11? This is just "Operation Barn Door"
2
Boehner's statement is laughable at best. Neither he nor the POTUS has done anything constructive about terrorism. ISIS has grown into a major middle-east threat and our government is doing almost nothing about it. They can't get a decent defense budget passed, the POTUS has NO plan to stop and eliminate ISIS. His fear, or lack of capacity, inability, experience, or ignorance in how to lead in that situation, or his complete indulgence in his , arrogance, precludes him from deigning to deal with it. I'm not sure which is the case. But, the citizens of the country and the world also see it this same way. And a sad majority give him a pass? The comments of DCBarrister below are spot on! I do not agree with Rand Paul on many things, but he is absolutely correct on this one. I applaud him for having the spine to step up! The majority of the remaining so called reps, are pathetic, both sides of the isle. Their "service" and methods are disgusting!
8
Remember the late Osama bin Laden? And all the other late Al Qaeda leadership? And the recent late ISIS financial leader? Everything is not just an opportunity for more Obama Derangement Syndrome.
4
I've never voted for a republican but want to say 'thank you' to Rand Paul for putting the brakes on this illegal government overreach. Now let's hope they can roll back these programs forever.
"Patriot Act", "Freedom Act"
Enough, already, with the dystopian names that are clearly designed to snooker the public.
"Patriot Act", "Freedom Act"
Enough, already, with the dystopian names that are clearly designed to snooker the public.
9
Kudos to Rand Paul. He is the one candidate I could vote on the Republican party. If he succeeds to get rid of the Patriots act and replace it with Freedom act, then the Unites States has defended its constitution against the onslaught of terrorists. If you want big government, support patriots act otherwise tear it and throw it into the dust bin. The big government does not mean how many government employees are there, but how intrusive it is. The Republicans love big government. The government can develop software that grows organically based on the leads rather than collecting all data and filtering down. We need to teach all these three letter agencies how to be efficient and do a good job. The approach is cut the budget for these agencies. The bigger the budget the lesser you think.
8
Edward Snowden must be pleased with Rand Paul! Even if Paul doesn't prevail, he has received maximum publicity. Will Mitch McConnell still endorse Paul's presidential campaign?
What we have learned from the circus in the Senate is that if Republicans can't agree among themselves, how can there be unanimity across the partisan divide.
What we have learned from the circus in the Senate is that if Republicans can't agree among themselves, how can there be unanimity across the partisan divide.
3
Ed Snowden would be pleased with anyone defending our Constitutional rights and privacy. Which is not most of our so called representatives in Congress. Snowden will be recognized as a hero and true Patriot long after the names of the cowards in Congress and the grifters in the security-corporation-government-establishment fascism are long forgotten.
3
the senate has returned to being a private club ... only interested in its sponsors ...... god bless america.
4
“I’ve said on many occasions that I believe he would be the worst candidate we could put forward" said McCain of Paul. And John McCain is an expert on putting the worst candidate forward.
19
To those commenters who consider corporations benign and the government always the boogyman under your bed at night, I would suggest you speak with families of those who have died from smoking caused lung cancer or the former residents of Love Canal or the loved ones of those killed by shrapnel from faulty airbags or those who found themselves homeless due to mortgage lender deception and fraud.
There is no publicly elected Board of Directors at Google, Facebook, Apple, et al to make transparent, let alone reign in, the actions of Brin, Zuckerberg, Cook, et al. There are no articles about internal public debates, no filibusters, no opportunities for us to hold Boards and C.E.O.s accountable, as we can with Members of Congress and the Administrations, as imperfect as such accountability may be.
As one who has been the documented object of government action because of my political beliefs and activities, I have no illusions regarding what the Feds (and some locals) are capable of. That said, I still consider the unaccountable private sector a greater danger, if for no other reason (and there are obviously others) than that it has less motivation and ability to protect collected info from hackers. I have no doubt the N.S.A. is better equipped to protect my data, however collected, from a hacker in Russia or China or America that is any of the referenced corporations.
There is no publicly elected Board of Directors at Google, Facebook, Apple, et al to make transparent, let alone reign in, the actions of Brin, Zuckerberg, Cook, et al. There are no articles about internal public debates, no filibusters, no opportunities for us to hold Boards and C.E.O.s accountable, as we can with Members of Congress and the Administrations, as imperfect as such accountability may be.
As one who has been the documented object of government action because of my political beliefs and activities, I have no illusions regarding what the Feds (and some locals) are capable of. That said, I still consider the unaccountable private sector a greater danger, if for no other reason (and there are obviously others) than that it has less motivation and ability to protect collected info from hackers. I have no doubt the N.S.A. is better equipped to protect my data, however collected, from a hacker in Russia or China or America that is any of the referenced corporations.
7
To what extent is the NSA controlled by corporate interests?
All the NSA provides is another potential data stream for hackers, their possession of the data makes nothing "more secure". In fact, I'd argue that having data amassed in some place is an enormous security no-no.
Sorry, the Government simply cannot be trusted.
Sorry, the Government simply cannot be trusted.
1
In a dictatorship, the government watches the citizens.
In a democracy, the citizens watch the government.
Any questions?
In a democracy, the citizens watch the government.
Any questions?
13
Yes: What is your point? In a democracy, the citizens ARE the government.
2
Yes, I have a question for your Manichean mind:
what do you call it when (a) certain branches of government watch the citizenry (the IRS and DOT as well as NSA), (b) the citizenry watches the government (as when their representatives holding public hearings that roast government officials and when they vote for their representatives), (c) corporations exploit information gathered from their customers for their own private interests, and (d) millions of members of the public watch corporations, with an eye to suing some of them as well as to buy the stock of others?
Please don't use the "watches" metaphor for the sake of a simplistic alternative A or alternative B choice. Like most industrial/post-industrial societies, the contemporary U.S. is neither a dictatorship nor a democracy.
what do you call it when (a) certain branches of government watch the citizenry (the IRS and DOT as well as NSA), (b) the citizenry watches the government (as when their representatives holding public hearings that roast government officials and when they vote for their representatives), (c) corporations exploit information gathered from their customers for their own private interests, and (d) millions of members of the public watch corporations, with an eye to suing some of them as well as to buy the stock of others?
Please don't use the "watches" metaphor for the sake of a simplistic alternative A or alternative B choice. Like most industrial/post-industrial societies, the contemporary U.S. is neither a dictatorship nor a democracy.
3
We're not THIS gov't--it's not a real democracy. It's a corporatocracy
2
For the record, most business/investment articles that I read are calling attention to bad data. That being the case, perhaps the Patriot Act can be expanded to determine why all of our data is getting bad. Anyway, it seems to me that the Federal Reserve needs help !
Anyone suggesting that Paul took this stand as a political move is way off base and must not be familiar with GOP party politics. Paul took this principled stand and now his reward will be to savaged by the Neocon /war hawk establishment of his own party. John Mccain's Mini me, Lindsay Graham, has already thrown himself into the fray for the sole purpose of attacking Paul, his sin apparently being to dare to challenge the Neocon orthodoxy of his dying party.
Considering the current state of the GOP base, and the nature of what passes for "conservative" media, i have little doubt that they will succeed in crushing Paul and any chance he may have had at the GOP nomination. Ironically, in so doing they will also be destroying the best chance their party has to take back the WH in 2016. Paul's libertarian based conservatism is where the future rests with respect to political opposition to the left. The Neocon crowd is just to dimwitted, or stubborn, to see it.
On many levels, the Neocon/ war hawk GOP establishment would actually prefer Mrs. Clinton in the WH over Rand. She's one of them. and they know it.
Considering the current state of the GOP base, and the nature of what passes for "conservative" media, i have little doubt that they will succeed in crushing Paul and any chance he may have had at the GOP nomination. Ironically, in so doing they will also be destroying the best chance their party has to take back the WH in 2016. Paul's libertarian based conservatism is where the future rests with respect to political opposition to the left. The Neocon crowd is just to dimwitted, or stubborn, to see it.
On many levels, the Neocon/ war hawk GOP establishment would actually prefer Mrs. Clinton in the WH over Rand. She's one of them. and they know it.
4
The Patriot Act is a disgrace to the principals of this nation. It violates the 4th amendment rights of law abiding citizens on a daily basis and must be stopped. There is no proof that the bulk collection of records has stopped any attacks, and this will always be the case. The real danger that this law presents is how it can be abused in the future, indiscriminate collection of data was used before against the civil rights movement and anti-war protesters, and it may be abused again. This "War on terror" has been costing us not only billions of dollars, but has also cost us the values that we used to stand for. I hope the people of this nation continue to fight this abuse of our liberties.
21
For the love of Pete, If you are going to steal away our basic freedoms, have the decency to call it something other than the Patriot act. Perhaps Congress should consult with our Chinese friends, and come up with an appropriate name. Certainly, their intent and that of Congress is basically the same.
13
Libertarians/Liberals are closing the loop on civil liberties, but some die hard party apparatchiks just can't seem to get their heads around the idea of teaming up with a person in the other party.
Rand Paul is speaking for liberals all over the county --- on this issue. Why can't a Democrat take the lead like Paul on civil liberties? Good question and another reason for depressed turnout -- for Democrats -- in midterm elections.
Rand Paul is speaking for liberals all over the county --- on this issue. Why can't a Democrat take the lead like Paul on civil liberties? Good question and another reason for depressed turnout -- for Democrats -- in midterm elections.
18
Principia, my guess is that they won't take the lead because a Democrat currently sits in the WH who, to the consternation of many liberals who supported him, seems not all that uncomfortable presiding over the post 9/11 surveillance apparatus that he previously was so critical of. Like most politicians, they don't want to be seen as crossing the titular head of their party. That's what makes Rand's stand so admirable- he's not only correct on the merits but he's rattling the cage of his own party establishment.
To be fair, there have been some Democrats who have spoken up on the issue. Ron Wyden of Oregon comes to mind as does Bernie Sanders. All we've gotten from the Clinton camp, however, is the usual sound of crickets chirping.
To be fair, there have been some Democrats who have spoken up on the issue. Ron Wyden of Oregon comes to mind as does Bernie Sanders. All we've gotten from the Clinton camp, however, is the usual sound of crickets chirping.
4
Whate4ver else I may think of him, on this issue Mr. Paul is connecting to his libertarian roots. Unlike the liberals, we have always been opposed to government data collection, especially without open judicial oversight.
It would be nice if congresscritters on both side of the aisle would follow his lead and realize that warrentless searches are dangerous to all of us, not just the wrongdoers.
It would be nice if congresscritters on both side of the aisle would follow his lead and realize that warrentless searches are dangerous to all of us, not just the wrongdoers.
1
And in a nutshell, your explained the two dysfunctional and corrupt major parties, the Dems and Repugs. They are loyal to their party, but disloyal to the citizens who elected them. They care more about having power than crafting good legislation. And they are so hypocritical, that they will stay loyal to a POTUS who has reversed course, and would be more appropriate as a member of the opposition party. I'll never be voting for any of them again. It's third party, write in Snowden-Manning, or stay home. I'm done with them forever.
I would like to graciously thank the Commonwealth of Kentucky and it's involved citizenry for Rand Paul. We have a voice, even if it's a lonely one.
15
Agree with the majority of readers to let it expire. No more violations of our 4th amendment rights.
11
It is simply not necessary to have total bulk seizure of all phone, email, etc. records in the country to protect the national security. We the People and the federal authorities know who are enemies are. And there should be no problem using special judicial bodies for the acquisition of warrants to obtain such information from people suspected or reasonably believed to be involved in terrorism activity. And the standard should be reasonable suspicion not full blown 4th Amendment probable cause - just something actual as opposed to something purely speculative. I think Americans can live with that kind of low standard given the things at stake which include wmds, but bulk collection of everybody's everything is simply not acceptable in a constitutional federal republic.
7
I can't believe I agree with Rand Paul on anything, but on this issue I do and I think he shows courage for standing up to his peers in the senate.
18
Thank god for Rand Paul, he has won my vote. This kind of illegal garbage must stop. Either there is a 4th amendment and we wiok respect it, or we should just shred the constitution once and for all. You're not selling me an ounce of imaginary "safety" for ten pounds of freedom. The so called "patriot" act has done more to harm my freedom than all the terrorists on earth.
8
Isn't it interesting that Lindsey Graham goes out in public to declare his candidacy on the first day parts of the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act expired? One would think Senator Graham would be assuming the posture he has been advising the nation to take for the past two weeks should the Act expire: locked in our homes cowering under the bed.
12
Fortunately, the US Government can cooperate with MSN & GOOGLE & sift data as their marketeers do. Same as a peek at a hotel register, or old telephone pin register. The specific person surveillance, (and business enterprises too) may require and will be the objective of a warranted search. And as an old government idiot this reader once worked with used to think as his green light protection (for partisan rackets), no, the Government does not have to disclose its warranted activity to you.
So now the "phone companies" (corporations) will be the stewards of all that meta data, instead of the NSA. Somehow, I do not feel more secure. By the way, Snowden did not "blow the whistle" on anything that thinking people had not already figured out. His actions were cowardly and traitorous.
5
Although I agree with the first part of your statement, I take strong issue with the second part. On the contrary, Edward Snowden did a very patriotic thing in reminding us all what is going on behind our backs, in full violation of the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution.
9
You might be correct about many people having figure that out beforehand. But I can't help comparing it to the recent attention to police shootings caused by that video of the cop shooting a guy in the back. Many of us already knew the cops do whatever it takes to protect a cop from being prosecuted for murder, but it took a video to cause actual meaningful discussion about it. I find myself migrating towards the position that Snowden's actions are quite similar to that video.
5
By the way, Barack Obama was perfectly willing to LIE to you for the rest of his presidency about NSA spying. If Snowden hadn't produced proof, what "thinking people" had already figured out would just be wacky comic book nerd conspiracy theories. Snowden is more of a leader than Obama. And easier to believe.
3
Again the NY Times doesn't even mention Barack Obama, despite these facts:
1. Obama revived the Patriot Act provisions that are abusing our rights and liberties after campaigning against them in 2008 & ridiculing Bush for NSA spying in several stump speeches.
2. Obama expanded the Patriot Act to allow the NSA to collect every second of every email, phone call and keystroke of computer activity of every American...Bush didn't.
3. Obama is siding with McCain, McConnell and the same GOP leaders he accused of hating America and called domestic terrorists during the govt shutdown.
It's simple. Either Obama lied to all of us to get elected in 2008 (i.e. Con artist) or he's lying now. Either way we lose as a nation.
1. Obama revived the Patriot Act provisions that are abusing our rights and liberties after campaigning against them in 2008 & ridiculing Bush for NSA spying in several stump speeches.
2. Obama expanded the Patriot Act to allow the NSA to collect every second of every email, phone call and keystroke of computer activity of every American...Bush didn't.
3. Obama is siding with McCain, McConnell and the same GOP leaders he accused of hating America and called domestic terrorists during the govt shutdown.
It's simple. Either Obama lied to all of us to get elected in 2008 (i.e. Con artist) or he's lying now. Either way we lose as a nation.
17
Safety, security, what a joke.. It's all about companies such as Booz Allen making oodles of dough...
11
Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, who sparred with Mr. Paul on the floor over procedure, said later that Mr. Paul was not fit for the White House job he seeks. “I’ve said on many occasions that I believe he would be the worst candidate we could put forward,” he said.
Who let the dogs out? A rather incredible remark from the man who gave us Sarah Palen.
Who let the dogs out? A rather incredible remark from the man who gave us Sarah Palen.
12
Those that created a world-wide program of torture, sexual abuse and murder of innocent civilians and then lied to the entire world and their own elected leaders about the program's existence, rationale and results, have only themselves to blame for a complete loss of trust or credibility. They are only worthy of disgust. Even for those of us who believe they are necessary, that is a horrifying betrayal.
6
"My kind of loyalty was loyalty to one's country, not to its institutions or its office-holders." Mark Twain.
In the aftermath of breakdowns in national security, disaster relief in New Orleans, intelligence on Iraqi WMD, and regulatory controls in banking, revelations surfaced about secret domestic surveillance. Freedom of expression is one of the few things Americans agree is inviolate, and rightly so. Without it, there is little hope of forging the new solutions needed to repair the middle class, health care, education, infrastructure, and the environment. A brighter future depends on bolstering the spirit of democracy, not on parsing the letter of reactive laws like the Patriot Act, which fetter it.
In the aftermath of breakdowns in national security, disaster relief in New Orleans, intelligence on Iraqi WMD, and regulatory controls in banking, revelations surfaced about secret domestic surveillance. Freedom of expression is one of the few things Americans agree is inviolate, and rightly so. Without it, there is little hope of forging the new solutions needed to repair the middle class, health care, education, infrastructure, and the environment. A brighter future depends on bolstering the spirit of democracy, not on parsing the letter of reactive laws like the Patriot Act, which fetter it.
14
With a cowardly fearful lying politically partisan Congress unwilling to exercise reasonable legislative oversight and a feckless federal judiciary unable to meaningfully mediate disputes matched with an incompetent deceitful corrupt military- industrial complex executive branch willing to shred our Constitution on behalf of corporate plutocrats the worst demons of our nature are winning.
The gravest threat to our freedoms and liberties arises from within our own borders and governmental institutions. The barbarian danger that we face is in the nearest mirror and within the echo of our voices.
The gravest threat to our freedoms and liberties arises from within our own borders and governmental institutions. The barbarian danger that we face is in the nearest mirror and within the echo of our voices.
7
McConnell epitomizes how out of touch the Senate is with privacy concerns. The Patriot Act was and still is, an invasion of our rights as Americans. Let it die...
10
"... and there are additional workarounds investigators may use to overcome the lapse in the authorizations."
Is "overcome" the right word here?
Shouldn't it be "ignore"?
Is "overcome" the right word here?
Shouldn't it be "ignore"?
7
Somehow I have a feeling that the "USA Freedom Act" will have as much relationship to our freedom as the "Patriot Act" had to our patriotism. For once, this knee-jerk liberal actually agrees with Rand Paul...
12
I wonder if the question should be: "Will Rand Paul's obstruction to the Patriot Act and collecting phone data ever lead to a 9/11 type attack again on the USA? Will Rand Paul and all of us live to regret this?
2
Good on ya, Rand!
7
The vast ocean of information that the gov't thinks its entitled to because there are dangerous people out in the world is self defeating in its theory. But it has given a major boost to national security inc. High paid gov't funded consultancies would love to keep the Patriot Act intact. The counter terrorism world is a self promoting ever expanding nihilistic never ending effort to sell the idea that the US is very insecure and without them god knows what would happen to the US.
7
Except for the roving phone warrant program, the rest of section 215 should be left to expire. It's time for the federal government to spend it's time and money on other items such as road construction and back into the national defense. Just imagine all the bridges, roads and extra items useful to the DOD we could purchase with all of that 'data storage' and spy money that's used to collect the data on the nation's thirteen year old girl's whose phone calls with their friends are to talk about how cute the neighborhood boy's eyes really are? I mean - enough is enough. But the NSA Contractors and their generous campaign contributions have control over the Congress - so privacy, civil rights and the Constitution have been sold off so that McCain, Graham, McConnell and the like can get re-elected. Look: 911 was a while ago - let's grow up and act like the rest of the world and just get back to work keeping our country safe by using the tools we have that seem to have worked for two hundred years - even during two world wars. Enough is enough.
16
Senator Paul's grandstanding to shut down the Patriot Act would be more effective if it wasn't so similar to Senator Cruz's grandstanding to shut down the government. This is more about presidential ambitions than about the actual cause.
The amended bill is widely supported, and would collect no more data than the phone companies normally do -- the numbers called, length of call, etc. Perhaps the reform should go deeper but this was actually a bipartisan compromise which is a rara avis these days.
Cuckoo birds abound however. This would all be much more convincing if those who are ranting about privacy ever put the same energy into blocking the outrageous government-mandated invasion of women's medical privacy and indeed their physical bodies with transvaginal probes in many states. Rand is one who tried to attach a fetal personhood bill to a totally unrelated flood bill. His concern for individual privacy certainly did not extend to the women who make up half of the population of this country.
Nor do any senators seem to care about the much broader corporate invasions of consumer privacy, or the security cameras in stores everywhere, etc. This is a tempest in a tea pot.
The amended bill is widely supported, and would collect no more data than the phone companies normally do -- the numbers called, length of call, etc. Perhaps the reform should go deeper but this was actually a bipartisan compromise which is a rara avis these days.
Cuckoo birds abound however. This would all be much more convincing if those who are ranting about privacy ever put the same energy into blocking the outrageous government-mandated invasion of women's medical privacy and indeed their physical bodies with transvaginal probes in many states. Rand is one who tried to attach a fetal personhood bill to a totally unrelated flood bill. His concern for individual privacy certainly did not extend to the women who make up half of the population of this country.
Nor do any senators seem to care about the much broader corporate invasions of consumer privacy, or the security cameras in stores everywhere, etc. This is a tempest in a tea pot.
13
I disagree. Paul's opposition to the Patriot Act is likely to cost him conservative support he needs to get the Republican nomination. Saying otherwise is like saying that Ron Paul's opposition to the Iraq War was more about presidential ambition.
Seriously, there is no "privacy" in this digital age. It doesn't exist. And, if, God forbid, there were another terrorist attack, the president will be the one to blame, and so I don't blame him for wanting to extend the Patriot Act.
9
The current president is lame duck at this point. Your argument doesnt work for about 6 different reasons but that is for starters.
Repressive laws should not be made so some empty suit politician doesn't get blamed for something. Although the Bush Administration was warned about impending attacks, it did nothing and no one, not a single person, lost their job or got demoted for that failure. In fact some were promoted and given awards. Privacy can exist if there is the will to put limits and controls on access to personal information. It can be done, but the corruption of the capitalists, and the politicians they buy, are the obstacles to Constitutional government.
In the pass decade we've all seen what we've got for militarizing a police job. Thousands of US troops killed, tens of thousands injured. We dug a deep hole in our checkbook, and the number is still running when ISIS roams around with spanking new US weapons. Our government managed to alienate almost every ally we used to have. And now, it's alienating US people.
A great nation needs to demonstrate its ability to correct mistakes. The stage is now set up by a national hero who woke up the world but is still kept away from home. An exciting page in US history is about to turn and a new star is about to be born.
I can hear the drum rolls, and I can't wait...
A great nation needs to demonstrate its ability to correct mistakes. The stage is now set up by a national hero who woke up the world but is still kept away from home. An exciting page in US history is about to turn and a new star is about to be born.
I can hear the drum rolls, and I can't wait...
5
Scrap the whole thing. Enough of emulating North Korea.
13
People seem to forget (or else overlook) the fundamental principle of terrorism: It is not to kill a relatively small number of people: it is to cause a vast herd of people to panic and act in ways that are inimical to their own interests and instead act in ways that further the goals of the terrorists.
I do genuinely mourn the deaths of the thousands of innocents who died on 911 and in its aftermath. And I mourn actively as best I can: by persistence in seeking the truth regarding my own government’s doings.
Thus I read and I recommend the comments of people who speak out in this venue and in others, for I believe in Thomas More’s maxim that my silence would imply assent.
I do genuinely mourn the deaths of the thousands of innocents who died on 911 and in its aftermath. And I mourn actively as best I can: by persistence in seeking the truth regarding my own government’s doings.
Thus I read and I recommend the comments of people who speak out in this venue and in others, for I believe in Thomas More’s maxim that my silence would imply assent.
12
I'm not just cynical but this Freedom Act is yet another example of one branch of Government empowering another in the name of the people.............that it spies on.
5
On this ONE point alone I will vote for Paul...Much as I suppose women who only vote for pro-abortion candidates, and are never maligned, I think voting for the only man to stand up for America's REAL freedoms, and against destructive wars is as about as good as we can get in today's, contrived political reality. He is not perfect, but I already voted for perfection in the last two elections, and Obama has proved to be the greatest disappointment of my voting life, and I voted for the first Clinton, so that is saying something.
7
Same here.
It remains to be seen whether; Sanders, Webb, or Paul will be the first to rise above the mere 'issue level' of denouncing spying, and actually have the brains and guts to 'out' the broader cancer of the Empire -- which is the proximate CAUSE of all spying, wars, looting, tyranny, inequality of income, environmental destruction, et al.
The prime and only "compelling" reason that Bernie could become president, if he wants to, would be for him to 'expose', publicly 'call-out' and commit to confront this Disguised Global (crony) Capitalist EMPIRE --- which has now captured, controls, and "Occupies" our formerly proud democratic Republic, by hiding behind the dual-party Vichy facade which both the neocon 'R' Vichy party and the neoliberal-con 'D' Vichy party front and shill for.
Another candidate who may well have the brains, historical wisdom, and guts to 'come-out' against this Disguised Global Capitalist Empire merely 'posing' as, and HQed in, the U.S., is Jim Webb.
As I wrote, more than 8 years ago:
OpEdNews Op Eds 1/31/2007 "The most important question for '08 candidates ---- Where do you stand on EMPIRE?"
Whoever, raises the truth about Empire first and credibly will be the almost certain winner of this delayed 2016 start of a real "revolution" (as Bernie says) against Empire.
The prime and only "compelling" reason that Bernie could become president, if he wants to, would be for him to 'expose', publicly 'call-out' and commit to confront this Disguised Global (crony) Capitalist EMPIRE --- which has now captured, controls, and "Occupies" our formerly proud democratic Republic, by hiding behind the dual-party Vichy facade which both the neocon 'R' Vichy party and the neoliberal-con 'D' Vichy party front and shill for.
Another candidate who may well have the brains, historical wisdom, and guts to 'come-out' against this Disguised Global Capitalist Empire merely 'posing' as, and HQed in, the U.S., is Jim Webb.
As I wrote, more than 8 years ago:
OpEdNews Op Eds 1/31/2007 "The most important question for '08 candidates ---- Where do you stand on EMPIRE?"
Whoever, raises the truth about Empire first and credibly will be the almost certain winner of this delayed 2016 start of a real "revolution" (as Bernie says) against Empire.
2
"The expiration of surveillance authority demonstrates a profound shift in American attitudes since the days after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, when national security was pre-eminent in both parties." ?
This statement so profoundly mis-states things that it's hard to know where to start!
1) National security is STILL "preeminent in both parties. Some (and only a few!) are merely questioning the abuse of spying and wholesale surrendering of basic freedoms to a surveillance-state in the name of false security!
2) "Security" doesn't mean totally surrendering any pretense of freedoms for citizens themselves to a surveillance state. (That's tyranny!)
3) "Security" should be defined, not a blanket epithet that gets invoked endlessly. The press has a responsibility to define terms and write about just what they mean, not invoke labels like "security," "liberal: etc.
4) After any terrible event, attack, or war, it's normal for societies to react with emotion and make mistakes. (cf. World War II and internment of Japanese citizens) It should be normal to address these excesses in the rational calm light of day too. That doesn't mean people don't value "security"!
5) Years of past experience--including but not limited to the Snowdon expose--have uncovered all the abuses made in the name of "security," often by nameless, faceless bureaucrats or spying technology run amok! Wanting to identify and address those suggests doesn't mean lack of concern for "security"
This statement so profoundly mis-states things that it's hard to know where to start!
1) National security is STILL "preeminent in both parties. Some (and only a few!) are merely questioning the abuse of spying and wholesale surrendering of basic freedoms to a surveillance-state in the name of false security!
2) "Security" doesn't mean totally surrendering any pretense of freedoms for citizens themselves to a surveillance state. (That's tyranny!)
3) "Security" should be defined, not a blanket epithet that gets invoked endlessly. The press has a responsibility to define terms and write about just what they mean, not invoke labels like "security," "liberal: etc.
4) After any terrible event, attack, or war, it's normal for societies to react with emotion and make mistakes. (cf. World War II and internment of Japanese citizens) It should be normal to address these excesses in the rational calm light of day too. That doesn't mean people don't value "security"!
5) Years of past experience--including but not limited to the Snowdon expose--have uncovered all the abuses made in the name of "security," often by nameless, faceless bureaucrats or spying technology run amok! Wanting to identify and address those suggests doesn't mean lack of concern for "security"
5
It wasn't long ago that Obama labelled the Patriot Act as right wing extremism. Now he wants to extend it and strengthen it. Candidate Obama is a whole lot different than President Obama. Hypocrisy in action.
7
No, not Hypcocrisy in action - candidate Obama was ill in formed on the status of the world and just trying to et elected any way he could. President Obama has had to face the realities that other more intelligent people knew all along. They hate us and will try to do us in in whatever means and however they can. there have been terrorist plots uncovered - but we missed Boston - a few military bases, etc. we cannot afford not to be vigilent.
1
Even if Rand Paul fails, AT&T still will collect your call to the pizza service and charge you 92 bucks a month to be the monitor of the privatization of the intelligence Supermarket. It doesn't matter that you use Virgin Mobile at 1/3 rd the price, that fake tree on your mountain is a cell tower owned by the family of Alexander Graham Bell.
Why do we say 'Gray-Ham Bell'? Can't we just say Gram Bell and be done with it?
Why do we say 'Gray-Ham Bell'? Can't we just say Gram Bell and be done with it?
2
Tricky subject - one of those two-handed ones. On the one hand, it seems prudent to engage in wide-ranging surveillance to identify, track, and prevent terrorist attacks against America or its allies. On the other hand if America has to implement deep surveillance of its citizens in contravention of any common law rights to privacy, then the terrorists have won a famous victory by eliminating the openness and freedom that is America.
On the whole I think Rand Paul did the right thing. It might have changed the debate if there were some reliable statistics that said "as a direct result of this program we have been able to prevent 'n' number of attacks" without the need to divulge details of each one. If there were such cases I haven't read about them. America needs to remain America or the terrorists will run it by remote control.
On the whole I think Rand Paul did the right thing. It might have changed the debate if there were some reliable statistics that said "as a direct result of this program we have been able to prevent 'n' number of attacks" without the need to divulge details of each one. If there were such cases I haven't read about them. America needs to remain America or the terrorists will run it by remote control.
5
Let the Patriot Act expire.
Another reminder of the ongoing war that keeps
the gun lobby and defense corporations happy.
Apparently, subjugation of other Countries
and our own Citizenry is a priority
in keeping the Homeland safe.
Another reminder of the ongoing war that keeps
the gun lobby and defense corporations happy.
Apparently, subjugation of other Countries
and our own Citizenry is a priority
in keeping the Homeland safe.
5
It's very difficult to keep a pack of lies alive after 14 years of aging. They are the opposite of fine wine. They get poisoned by the truthy bits stippled within the untrue brew. They are best frozen, cryogenics for a future civilization is the only safe way out of this cavern of what hit the pentagon where is flight 93 pull building 7 professional witnesses war games same day coincidence video of bin laden imposter stealth chopper buried at sea. It seems an awful lot to monitor my Aunt who works at Kohls and has knee problems.
1
From the Gingrich "Contract on America" to this farce. When will America learn that Republicans not only do not know how to govern, they don't want to govern?
Does America even care?
“What experience and history teaches us is that people and governments have never learned anything from history.” Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
Does America even care?
“What experience and history teaches us is that people and governments have never learned anything from history.” Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
4
These are the same scare tactics we endured while a lot of us were still teenagers in the 1960's when Joseph McCarthy ruled the Congress and all of us with his wildly exaggerated scare tactics. We all had air raid drills and learned that our schools were equipped with kits from Civil Defense that included geiger counters. We even sang \"640 - 1240 Conelrad\" as our memory device for tuning into special alert stations on our AM radios. We built bomb shelters and maintained a fresh rotation of canned goods. Even before that, our parents were duped into believing all the Japanese in this country were our enemies. If you closely examine the speeches George W. Bush and his associates used, we were all coerced into that same fear - the \"mushroom cloud\", tubes to make nuclear weapons.... We've got to remove those fear mongers from public office. The only way to do that, unfortunately, will take another six years. The first step is to repeal the Patriot Act and rid our airports of all the surveillance.
If fear is the only method of stimulating our war-based economy and making our leaders in DC into fascist military dictators, we've got much more serious problems to face if we want our nation to survive as a democratic republic.
If fear is the only method of stimulating our war-based economy and making our leaders in DC into fascist military dictators, we've got much more serious problems to face if we want our nation to survive as a democratic republic.
2
Does any one person actually believe that the NSA or any part of the government is actually going to stop spying on citizens? No one but the ignorant sheep who believe everything they are told will buy this.
8
Don't know how to read your name, but yes, many people believe in this nonsense. They'll remove Patriot act and replace it with Freedom act, which isn't really different. But who wants to think about that? People have all they need, let those big guys in suits decide for them.
Its illegal, does not do any good, can not prevent anything!!! may as close the shop and save 42 Billion....used the money to built some schools or something useful...
5
NSA has made Israel an extraterritorial power in their country -- it routinely shares the data it collects with this "ally."
That's your information, kiddies.
Happy?
theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/11/nsa-americans-personal-data-israel-doc...
• Secret deal places no legal limits on use of data by Israelis
• Only official US government communications protected
• Agency insists it complies with rules governing privacy
Hey, kiddies, here's the bill of sale for your "right" to privacy
theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/sep/11/nsa-israel-intelligence-me...
Feel safer now?
This is an issue where we left and right "extremists"can collaborate. rather than directed.
That's your information, kiddies.
Happy?
theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/11/nsa-americans-personal-data-israel-doc...
• Secret deal places no legal limits on use of data by Israelis
• Only official US government communications protected
• Agency insists it complies with rules governing privacy
Hey, kiddies, here's the bill of sale for your "right" to privacy
theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/sep/11/nsa-israel-intelligence-me...
Feel safer now?
This is an issue where we left and right "extremists"can collaborate. rather than directed.
6
Why does Senator Paul consider this a freedom issue? No one's freedom is affected unless the government uses the data for something other than national security. It's a data protection issue and the US, as seems increasingly to be the case, lags behind many other countries in that area. The amount of electronic data is growing exponentially and telephone call records are a drop in the ocean.
1
It's a "freedom issue" because the most precious right you may have is privacy as enshrined in the disappearing Fourth Amendment. There's a lot to be said for being simply left alone.
4
It appears the PJ has never read the 4th Amendment, nor is PJ familiar with the role that "general warrants" played in fomenting the American Revolution.
The fourth amendment forbids "unreasonable searches" and says that "probably cause" is required for a warrant. Looking for people who have called a phone number known to belong to a terrorist doesn't seem unreasonable. One could argue that the court which issues the warrants allows too much generality, but that's why we need data protection laws, to define rules for what data can be accessed, and in what circumstances. Obviously those rules have to conform to the constitution, but that's what it's for - to provide a framework for laws. It's not a substitute for laws; it's deliberately generalized so as not to prevent future generations making the laws to fit their circumstances, which the framers of the constitution were wise enough to know they couldn't predict.
1
It is an understandable sacrifice for the Patriot Act to be installed during the initial period against an unknown enemy due to the magnitude of destruction. However, since 9/11, the gov't has failed to at least decimate the strength of Al Qaeda, and then created the blossoming of ISIS (with weaponry and known funding; no Domino Theory here). The more recent propaganda of an "Arab Spring" demonstrates the ineptitude of a gov't that is dysfunctional in achieving success. The old guard of McCain, Clinton, McConnel, Obama is obviously defunct. This pettiness of politics has diminished the resolve of the United States. This next Presidential election is crucial to end the obfuscation that currently presides.
2
According to the comments, we either have to shiver at the mention of AlQaida and ISIS, or fear our own government. When did Americans become so gutless?
4
Our Founders took on a force infinitely stronger than ISIS or Al-Qaeda, and did it precisely because that government was behaving as this one is now.
When did NY Times commenters forget their heritage?
When did NY Times commenters forget their heritage?
1
Our government did build a giant data storage center in Utah. The NSA, CIA and FBI will not suddenly stop monitoring email, texts, Twitter accounts and cell phones. Rand Paul, like all good politicians, will always seize the moment, ISIS, al-Qaeda, Boko Harum and Hezbollah will continue to murder and plot against us. Do we really think anything is going to change?
1
Do you really think that by accepting the status quo, anything will change?
Interesting that Senators are fearmongering overseas groups as a reason to spy on Americans at home. It's a smoke screen. I really hope Americans are pushovers on their constitutional rights.
2
The drones over my house just phoned and asked me if I have any oil. I said, "No." Then they called me back and told me I bought some at Home Depot in 2009. They say it's on a shelf in the garage, in back of the 'Invisible Glass'.
Now they are dropping coupons. Pitiful.
"It's still No!"
Now they are dropping coupons. Pitiful.
"It's still No!"
3
Here is what we have re-learned: 1. Rand Paul is a shameless opportunist and grandstander, 2. Mitch McConnell is neither particularly smart nor good at his job, 3. thanks to Edward Snowden many people are no longer enamored with the idea of putting our Constitutional protections in the unaccountable hands of NSA.
6
Rand Paul may actually believe in "freedom". It's tough stuff because is has real costs and risks.
5
The main thing this surveillance bill issue proves is that Rand Paul is not just a typical politician. He's willing to stand up a battle the neo-cons in congress. Anytime someone can standup against and beat the so called establishment has my attention.
12
If government wants to spy, they should get a warrant. If there is a reason to spy on a suspected terrorist, what judge would deny that warrant? Spying on everybody is the stuff of fascists.
12
The article does a serious disservice by casting the issue as a conflict between national security and civil liberties. NSA surveillance has done practically nothing to enhance national security, so really it's a conflict between civil liberties and paranoid government overreach. Even for this Congress it should be an easy call: let the Act expire and stay expired.
7
The only way to take something that is deeply, fundamentally unconstitutional and make it legal is through a constitutional amendment. No amount of legal memos, lower court decisions, secret FISA courts, evasive language in legislation, or executive orders will make such practices fit the plain language of the 4th Amendment.
"The right of the people to be secure ... against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause ... particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Beautiful language, carefully considered. No General Warrants. Clear intent of the Founders.
Just sweep up everybody's data because we can??? Not constitutional. There is a difference between being able to do something and it being right to do that thing. To my surprise, Ron Paul finally stood up for one of his principles. His father always did.
"The right of the people to be secure ... against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause ... particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Beautiful language, carefully considered. No General Warrants. Clear intent of the Founders.
Just sweep up everybody's data because we can??? Not constitutional. There is a difference between being able to do something and it being right to do that thing. To my surprise, Ron Paul finally stood up for one of his principles. His father always did.
8
I hope that they continue the surveillance without letting the world know that they are continuing their surveillance.
As a non-sequitur, I would prefer that international communications be monitored than that we increase our military budget with unnecessary mechanical tools like rockets and planes and ships. And, I'm in favor of a universal military draft. Why should only those who volunteer get all the glory?
As a non-sequitur, I would prefer that international communications be monitored than that we increase our military budget with unnecessary mechanical tools like rockets and planes and ships. And, I'm in favor of a universal military draft. Why should only those who volunteer get all the glory?
2
Legislative sloth is not always a bad thing.
1
"Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, who sparred with Mr. Paul on the floor over procedure, said later that Mr. Paul was not fit for the White House job he seeks."
____________
Pot, meet Kettle.
____________
Pot, meet Kettle.
7
I agree with Rand Paul, and don't believe this was a bill that should never have been passed in the first place. According to the experts we got nothing out of it. But on the other hand, maybe the phone companies always had the power to access our phone records. Also, if you think about it, there is no more privacy - so what are we protecting? We see surveillance cameras everywhere, and there is google street view, tracking devices in cell phones and cars, spy satellites and drones that can see anything, Facebook and social media that tell people who we are, tracking of charge card purchases, and who knows, maybe turning on your computer webcam without you knowing it. Big Brother is everywhere so why worry about your phone data.
2
McConnell's insistence on renewing all the unpopular and unconstitutional parts of the Patriot Act is the sole reason why the Patriot Act expired. Good riddence.
6
Certainly, we cannot defend our freedom by taking our freedom away.
Sometimes, the simplest solution is the best solution - if we stop medley in the affairs of other counties, the terrorist problem will go away.
How often is Switzerland attacked by Terrorists? For them, September 11th was a day like any other day - not an accident, but the result of a neutral foreign policy.
Sometimes, the simplest solution is the best solution - if we stop medley in the affairs of other counties, the terrorist problem will go away.
How often is Switzerland attacked by Terrorists? For them, September 11th was a day like any other day - not an accident, but the result of a neutral foreign policy.
8
Elected officials get paid (campaign contributions, bribes) to "defend' our "allies", nothing else matters at this point....
I'm especially sorry that Rand Paul was the one who stopped this stupid "PATRIOT" act in its tracks. He is deserving of some admiration for that, and yet it's so very clear that women do not count as real people for him, let alone the poor in general. Why is it only someone like him that will stand up to government? I'm at a loss to answer that, I'm afraid, but I hope it doesn't make people vote for him for president. One would have to say goodbye to a lot of good things (like Choice) but I do think he's antiwar, isn't he?
3
I do not understand how one senator can stop the entire political process. In today's world it is a given that none of us should ever think any of our records are private (hackers stealing info all the time). It is pretty simple if you are doing something that is suspect don't do it or expect that it may well be tracked.
Paul is no hero and Snowden is a traitor.
Paul is no hero and Snowden is a traitor.
3
I think most of the writers here have no idea what kind of data is being collected. If you want to get a taste of a government intrusion on your private life try going through an income tax audit. Every check you have written, every bill you have paid, every charge you have made is read by a government agent.
That the government should have data to know that my phone was used to call someone else is miniscule in comparison. Rand has really riled up the government paranoids.
That the government should have data to know that my phone was used to call someone else is miniscule in comparison. Rand has really riled up the government paranoids.
3
Agreed.
Almost all of the opponents to this particular issue, the gathering of metadata of numeric phone data, have little idea of the size of the gathered data involved. Or the nature of most of the people involved in how this is gathered and saved.
And their is no indication that it has ever been purposefully used in a bad way. But OK, I won't argue about another layer of protection about who this data is legally used.
Many of the same who scream about this being a Constitutional violation are the same who say if you don't want to be tased or shot, just do what the officer is asking you to do.
Almost all of the opponents to this particular issue, the gathering of metadata of numeric phone data, have little idea of the size of the gathered data involved. Or the nature of most of the people involved in how this is gathered and saved.
And their is no indication that it has ever been purposefully used in a bad way. But OK, I won't argue about another layer of protection about who this data is legally used.
Many of the same who scream about this being a Constitutional violation are the same who say if you don't want to be tased or shot, just do what the officer is asking you to do.
1
And, uh, how do we know the NSA has actually stopped? Serious question: how would we know?
11
That is right Doug. Why believe ANYTHING the government says? Rand is probably a double agent for the CIA! And by the why Doug-who are you really?????
Putting aside the merits of whether to extend the program or not, if they knew they had a Sunday deadline looming, why did the Senate go ahead with a week-long recess when it was still unresolved?
They sure do seem to enjoy their vacations, even if national security - as proponents claim - is at risk.
They sure do seem to enjoy their vacations, even if national security - as proponents claim - is at risk.
5
Let me get this straight ... way too many people on here are now fluttering their lashes and swooning over Rand Paul. All because he is "standing up" for our freedom. Wake up, people. He is running for office. He will say anything. He's just a tad smarter than the rest of the clown car occupants, who haven't yet figured out an "angle" on differentiating themselves from the pack. His party is still the one that invented the so-called "Patriot Act." (And, before anyone else says it, yes, and the other party is still the one that refused to fight it. Like they refused to fight for public option, etc.)
5
My sentiments exactly.
Lol, you must not know who Rand Paul is. That family stands up for what is right, even when it is to popular.
I am well aware of his family's various stances politically. They're only "libertarian" when it suits their ambitions.
1
I will not be voting for Rand Paul in the GOP primaries or as a candidate should he get the nomination because I believe the U.S. Senate needs Rand Paul right where he is.
I live and work in Washington DC, on Capitol Hill and it is refreshing to see Sen. Paul taking on the entrenched GOP and Democratic elite in this town who serve themselves instead of the public.
As a lawyer I cringe at Sen. Paul's rhetoric when he tries to talk shop, but generally he gets the privacy issue 100%. This isn't about how best to help the US Government or some private entity to collect all of our personal information, this is about stopping that practice completely.
I live and work in Washington DC, on Capitol Hill and it is refreshing to see Sen. Paul taking on the entrenched GOP and Democratic elite in this town who serve themselves instead of the public.
As a lawyer I cringe at Sen. Paul's rhetoric when he tries to talk shop, but generally he gets the privacy issue 100%. This isn't about how best to help the US Government or some private entity to collect all of our personal information, this is about stopping that practice completely.
4
My main objection to all my phone data Constitutional,the 4th and 5th Amendment guarantees against search and seizure without due process of the law,and without suspicion of a crime or crimes beyond a reasonable doubt.In the second respect there's nothing in my phone calls I fear anyone knowing.My objection is(1) phone calls in this case are supposed to be private,with only the parties to the phone having the right to decide who else knows about them,and(2) because I'm not involved in terrorist activities,nor are those my phone calls to,my phone data is of no use to government agencies,their collection and storage a waste of time and space by them.Multiply this useless data collection by over 300 million,and it likely so overwhelms the ability of intelligence gatherers to process-in effect the "noise" drowning out the "signals "-that this bulk collection harms national security.
4
No, it's the next logical step that should worry you. When someone tries to "Privatize" the enterprise and wants to make a profit by selling your data to the unscrupulous. Like selling to thieves the fact that you are calling travel agencies for booking a vacation so that you may be robbed while you are away on vacation! Or when you are placing your cell phone call your location is hours away from your home zone! (of course the sellers of your information would be immune to being sued for telling the thieves you were on vacation.) Or even more annoying, gasp, using this info to target you for telemarketing calls.
I guess I don't think this is all about National Security, 9-11 was not because we did not have the intelligence. The intelligence was given it was not heeded! For whatever reason huge mistakes were made on the part of the George Bush's administration. We no longer have the right to privately live our lives without the intrusion of government, and the corrupt corporations!
7
At last, Kim, someone has said id. We did have the "intelligence"; it just wasn't used. So clearly we don't need these horrible surveillance laws, we just need slight more "intelligent" people (also people who are not more into politics than security)--that seems pretty clear. We need more whistleblowers and louder ones but of course that's not the way it's going. That lesson has never been learned. And we suffer because of it.
“Trust Me” does not work for this long a period of time in a Democratic Republic. I want to see unambiguous irrefutable proof that this “program” has done anything helpful for us. I do not agree with Senator Paul on much but in this he has my full support.
We should have been given the proof that the Trust was or wasn’t well given within a year of its starting. If not then the program stopped if so then reviewed biannually with publicly disclosed new proofs it was still necessary. As far as I know this program has never given us one single thing that could not have been gotten by honest police work.
Mr Clapper is a proven liar and will say anything to get what he wants.
McCain is a joke. Virtually a comical cartoonish “The Onion” version of himself and has been since before his last run for POTUS.
The POTUS seems to me to have been hoodwinked by those he relies on to report to him or he has conned me again.
We should have been given the proof that the Trust was or wasn’t well given within a year of its starting. If not then the program stopped if so then reviewed biannually with publicly disclosed new proofs it was still necessary. As far as I know this program has never given us one single thing that could not have been gotten by honest police work.
Mr Clapper is a proven liar and will say anything to get what he wants.
McCain is a joke. Virtually a comical cartoonish “The Onion” version of himself and has been since before his last run for POTUS.
The POTUS seems to me to have been hoodwinked by those he relies on to report to him or he has conned me again.
3
The lede: "The Senate will reconvene at midday on Monday to consider changes to a House bill that would curtail the government’s authority to sweep up vast quantities of telephone records after the program, which began after the 2001 terrorist attacks, expired at 12:01 a.m."
And then: "Mr. Paul’s stand may have forced the temporary expiration of parts of the U.S.A. Patriot Act used by the National Security Agency ..."
With both the Times and its sister company, NPR, there is never any addressing the real issue: the clear violation of the Fourth Amendment of the US Constitution carried out daily by the NSA, no discussion at all of why the people responsible for these impeachable acts -- Congress -- aren't being impeached.
As forthe White House's "The American people deserve nothing less" -- Really. Has there ever been a president as shameless as this one?
And then: "Mr. Paul’s stand may have forced the temporary expiration of parts of the U.S.A. Patriot Act used by the National Security Agency ..."
With both the Times and its sister company, NPR, there is never any addressing the real issue: the clear violation of the Fourth Amendment of the US Constitution carried out daily by the NSA, no discussion at all of why the people responsible for these impeachable acts -- Congress -- aren't being impeached.
As forthe White House's "The American people deserve nothing less" -- Really. Has there ever been a president as shameless as this one?
7
It's interestnng that CIA Director Brennan warned about the damage to the FBI --- not part of his portfoliio --- due to the lapse of sections of the PATRIOT Act. I'm guessing that he thinks the damage to the FBI will be as auser of NSA product, not as a fellow-collector with the NSA, which itself is not part of Brenna's purview.
Former Rep. Barney Frank, as ardent a leftist as there is, said on MSNBC this morning that he thinks public aarguments over this issue are exaggerated on both sides. He said he's not aware of anybody's Fourth Amendments rights being violated by the Section 215 provisions, but also he's not aware of any existgentially important successes the programs have achieved. If he's right, the arguments are much more heat than light.
Former Rep. Barney Frank, as ardent a leftist as there is, said on MSNBC this morning that he thinks public aarguments over this issue are exaggerated on both sides. He said he's not aware of anybody's Fourth Amendments rights being violated by the Section 215 provisions, but also he's not aware of any existgentially important successes the programs have achieved. If he's right, the arguments are much more heat than light.
The Patriot Act is another tool of propaganda trying to get citizens to believe if the Government does not collect data on every innocent American, we might somehow be at risk of foreign attack. None of us are suspected of committing any crime or posing any risk to national security, but we are all potential future suspects in crime. "I know I have done nothing wrong, but I must allow collection of my data because maybe you will be accused of a crime sometime in the future."
The Patriot Act was originally peddled as needed for stopping another 9/11--an attack organized by foreigners. It has unlawfully morphed into a spying device turned on the citizens. We were not responsible for 9/11, so how can laws supposedly meant to stop another 9/11 be turned against us?
And that is why the Patriot Act is so horrible. It gives a group of men the ability to pick and choose what private facts they believe pose a threat to . . . what? The power elite? Corporate power? The status quo?
This has nothing to do with stopping another 9/11 and everything to do with a Country concerned its citizens might some day decide a second revolution is in order. And it won't matter if that revolution is peaceful or violent. The reaction will be to crush it by whatever means are necessary and to effectively do that the government needs to know everything about its citizens.
The Patriot Act was originally peddled as needed for stopping another 9/11--an attack organized by foreigners. It has unlawfully morphed into a spying device turned on the citizens. We were not responsible for 9/11, so how can laws supposedly meant to stop another 9/11 be turned against us?
And that is why the Patriot Act is so horrible. It gives a group of men the ability to pick and choose what private facts they believe pose a threat to . . . what? The power elite? Corporate power? The status quo?
This has nothing to do with stopping another 9/11 and everything to do with a Country concerned its citizens might some day decide a second revolution is in order. And it won't matter if that revolution is peaceful or violent. The reaction will be to crush it by whatever means are necessary and to effectively do that the government needs to know everything about its citizens.
6
Many factors led the American Revolution, but one of them was great disgust and hatred of British "Writs of Assistance" in Colonial America.
A general Writ of Assistance allowed customs officers the ability to search any ship, house, or place of business, at any time, for any reason.
Sound familiar?
These Writs of Assistance led directly to the Fourth Amendment, why we have a clear, unambiguous statement against unreasonable search and seizure amongst the fundamental enumerated points in the founding documents of our national identity.
And the Patriot Act, by allowing the NSA to simply record all conversations, by anyone, all the time, is in direct gross violation of the Fourth Amendment, and therefore in direct conflict with the bedrock founding principles of this country.
Anyone who calls themselves an American must, on principle, reject the Patriot Act.
Simply put, the Patriot Act is UnAmerican, in the strictest legal, moral, and patriotic (irony) sense, by clearly and grossly defying American values.
I agree we live in a new era with new technology and new threats.
But the NSA (and FBI) are going to have to find a better way, period. They should never be allowed to defile American principles and our national identity and the rights that make this country great, no matter what the threat. For then, by defiling our principles, we have become less of a country.
Are we really so fragile that 9/11 permanently reduces our moral stature and American identity?
A general Writ of Assistance allowed customs officers the ability to search any ship, house, or place of business, at any time, for any reason.
Sound familiar?
These Writs of Assistance led directly to the Fourth Amendment, why we have a clear, unambiguous statement against unreasonable search and seizure amongst the fundamental enumerated points in the founding documents of our national identity.
And the Patriot Act, by allowing the NSA to simply record all conversations, by anyone, all the time, is in direct gross violation of the Fourth Amendment, and therefore in direct conflict with the bedrock founding principles of this country.
Anyone who calls themselves an American must, on principle, reject the Patriot Act.
Simply put, the Patriot Act is UnAmerican, in the strictest legal, moral, and patriotic (irony) sense, by clearly and grossly defying American values.
I agree we live in a new era with new technology and new threats.
But the NSA (and FBI) are going to have to find a better way, period. They should never be allowed to defile American principles and our national identity and the rights that make this country great, no matter what the threat. For then, by defiling our principles, we have become less of a country.
Are we really so fragile that 9/11 permanently reduces our moral stature and American identity?
7
Just the name of the Patriot Act suggests to any sophisticated observer that Orwellian language control is the absolute norm in the land of the free. The vast size and unchecked/able remit of the NSA and other agencies far outstrips the actual level of threat to America. This was never about effective threat management, it was always primarily about exploding purchase budgets to gleeful contractors in Big Security, and all supporting Congressmen would be indulged with fat campaign donations or other quid-pro-quo.
The fact that the US, of all nations, has built the largest, most intrusive global and domestic spying apparatus in human history, further reduces its strained credibility concerning principles of freedom and democracy in the world. The fall of the Patriot act is welcome step to freeing the USA from its addiction to authoritarianism.
But its a small step because the NSA still has free reign to spy in all sorts of other ways - every aspect of your digital life is theirs to rummage through, no real oversight, no real questions asked.
The fact that the US, of all nations, has built the largest, most intrusive global and domestic spying apparatus in human history, further reduces its strained credibility concerning principles of freedom and democracy in the world. The fall of the Patriot act is welcome step to freeing the USA from its addiction to authoritarianism.
But its a small step because the NSA still has free reign to spy in all sorts of other ways - every aspect of your digital life is theirs to rummage through, no real oversight, no real questions asked.
2
What a mad world we live in: Rand Paul wants this bill stopped, and Obama wants to continue spying on us all.
28
Rand Paul is an idiot of the first degree. Wait until we have another terrorist attack like 9/11 then everyone will be in favor of the government spying. If you are not planning an attack why are you afraid of the government spying on you?
It's definitely not that simple. The POTUS has a prerogative to protect the nation, i.e. give surveillance agencies the tools needed to keep us secure. He is simply fulfilling the obligations of his office, and I'd be willing to bet that even he believes it needs to be reformed. But the republicans - including Rand Paul - can only govern from manufactured crisis to manufactured crisis. McConnell's incompetence as seen by (1) his willingness to again play Russian roulette, as well as (2) his underestimation of Rand Paul as the one all to happy to throw a terd into the punchbowl just to give him cred in his run for POTUS, is really to blame. And, in case you are wondering just how genuine Paul is in his opposition, just look at how he lies through his teeth when he tells reporters yesterday that this program was started under Obama. He is either insulting the average intelligence of republican base voters (easy to do), or he is just part of the revision of history over the Bush presidency that is taking place on a massive scale by many in the military-industrial complex. I do agree with John McCain on one thing only: he and I both agree that Rand Paul is the worst candidate the republicans can put forth.
"The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
19
First, this proves that the Republicans are incapable of governing -- something we knew from the Bush years. Second, it demonstrates the totally irresponsibility of the legislative branch. In what world do you go on a week long vacation when you have not acted on major pending legislation? In the private sector which the Republicans love to venerate, you would be fired for going on vacation and then failing to meet the deadline on a major project.
30
Oh, puleeze, no one in the private world gets fired for missing a deadline. And there must be something about the words "bi-partisan" that you don't understand.
So that is what you get from this? As a democrat, I am far more interested in MY elected officials, in this case Obama, are doing what HE promised to do when I voted for HIM. Americans have become far too comfortable with focusing on the "other parties" wrong doings, and never your own.
Melech18 should not buy into the Republican-entrepreneur line of we deserve it because we are smart and work hard and create jobs. The only thing they know how to do successfully is to make Americans buy that line of poo and all the rest of the malarky about capitalism, free markets, investors, etc. so they can continue to enjoy the life God has chosen them to enjoy.
In the 242 years since the theft of America's Revolution by 53 white, male, and slave and land owners over 40% (97) have been marked by economists as Great/small Depressions, Panics, inflations, stagflations, and mostly 3% growth. The wealth of the then rich only got greater as slaves, women, poor white males and immigrants built the country as the Wall street crowd figured out how to best steal it from those who made that wealth. They call it a free market. Others call is class warfare as they transfer the natural resources from Native Americans to themselves. Along with this is the production of laws ensuring what they got they get to keep.
What the Republicans show:
(A) they want more wealth and income because "Too much of a good thing isn't enough.",
(B) there is nothing they will not do to keep and expand their wealth at any cost even if it means sending some one else's children and grandchildren to die for "their way of life", and,
(C) their only project is to gain total control. The 1% members will eventally form blocks as they try to win their game of "Class, Social and Economic Monopoly."
In the 242 years since the theft of America's Revolution by 53 white, male, and slave and land owners over 40% (97) have been marked by economists as Great/small Depressions, Panics, inflations, stagflations, and mostly 3% growth. The wealth of the then rich only got greater as slaves, women, poor white males and immigrants built the country as the Wall street crowd figured out how to best steal it from those who made that wealth. They call it a free market. Others call is class warfare as they transfer the natural resources from Native Americans to themselves. Along with this is the production of laws ensuring what they got they get to keep.
What the Republicans show:
(A) they want more wealth and income because "Too much of a good thing isn't enough.",
(B) there is nothing they will not do to keep and expand their wealth at any cost even if it means sending some one else's children and grandchildren to die for "their way of life", and,
(C) their only project is to gain total control. The 1% members will eventally form blocks as they try to win their game of "Class, Social and Economic Monopoly."
1
Remember when the PATRIOT ACT was the worst thing in the world? Remember when Obama said Bush had destroyed our way of life?
And now Obama supports it. What a fool.
And now Obama supports it. What a fool.
28
We are the fools for supporting Obama.
10
We can consider this metamorphosis from two perspectives: either Obama has been wooed by power to seek more power or, in the years since he became president and has had access to the "highlights" of all that intelligence gathering, he has learned a thing or two about the dark side of the world that scares the bleep out of him.
The corporate media hates this guy, and instead of Americans being more savvy and appreciating why, they buy into their propaganda, and hate him too. Don't get me wrong, I would vote for Elizabeth Warren given the chance, but in this field of corporate sycophants and war mongers, I will vote for those who stand for my real freedoms, and not just bumper sticker politicians, who tell me what I want to hear, but will do nothing of the kind once elected...Obama.
Everyone says "look at the Boston Marathon bombing, the NSA didn't stop that". Well guess what? The police don't stop or solve every murder or bank robber either. And "that there is no proof the NSA stopped an attack." Does anyone honestly think the NSA or FBI is going to tell the public which ones the did or didn't stop? No. And they shouldn't.
Unfortunately this will be a similar 9/11, sooner or later. Then it will be "shoulda, coulda, woulda."
Labeling Obama as “judge, jury and executioner” is his critics’ prerogative. But defending the country is not their responsibility. It is easy for those without executive authority to dismiss risks that are prospective. After a terrorist attack on America, the critics would likely be silent, hoping that no one recalled their complacency.
Unfortunately this will be a similar 9/11, sooner or later. Then it will be "shoulda, coulda, woulda."
Labeling Obama as “judge, jury and executioner” is his critics’ prerogative. But defending the country is not their responsibility. It is easy for those without executive authority to dismiss risks that are prospective. After a terrorist attack on America, the critics would likely be silent, hoping that no one recalled their complacency.
9
There actually has been considerable criticism of both the FBI and the CIA for failing to prevent the events of 9/11. Remember the reports of student pilots who shunned learning how to land an airplane, only wanting to know how to fly one already in the air that were overlooked by the FBI? There were numerous lapses and they have been publicly aired for years now.
The FBI has not been the least bit reticent about claiming to have prevented a number of attacks, but closer inspection reveals that most of
these "successes" were the result of the entrapment of individual who were picked out from their Internet comments.
Regarding drone attacks, Obama is killing American citizens with no clear mandate, judicial or otherwise, that much is known. Mr. Transparency has been anything but since taking office.
The FBI has not been the least bit reticent about claiming to have prevented a number of attacks, but closer inspection reveals that most of
these "successes" were the result of the entrapment of individual who were picked out from their Internet comments.
Regarding drone attacks, Obama is killing American citizens with no clear mandate, judicial or otherwise, that much is known. Mr. Transparency has been anything but since taking office.
Don't worry, the NSA ain't gonna stop spying, whether it is legal or not. There is no down-side for breaking them breaking the law, no enforcement by the Justice Department, not even disapproval from the White House or Congress, no sanctions by the Supremes. Game over.
16
It wasn't unconstitutional. If it were, they wouldn't be working on extending it.
I for one will take my chances with the terrorists. We have more to fear from the police state our local and national politicians seem determined to empower and fund. In case you hadn't noticed, the armored vehicles and paramilitary police armed with automatic weapons that rolled on the residents of Ferguson were supplied by the U. S. military that is all too willing to give away military equipment to be used to "police" our neighborhoods.
27
What do you fear from the "police state"? Most of us haven't done anything wrong.
Are you serious with this reply? You are alright with giving away your freedoms because you haven't done anything wrong? You then deserve to have those same freedoms stripped from you as they are slowly doing now. There is no excuse, especially in the name of percevied safety, that we should give away our individual freedoms because the government says that it's in our best interest.
The Patriot Act was set to expire on this date when the last extsion was put in 3 or 4 years ago, so stop complaining about it
7
that was prior to ISIS....a legitimate threat...should we wait for another 3500 Americans to perish before we come up with new Patriot Law acts to stop further terrorist violent acts?
Don't worry, Big Brother is Watching.
7
Solipsism of the first order.
I struggle to see Senator Paul's perspective that the Patriot Act infringes on the freedom of Americans. The NSA protects my family. The Cyber War is 5 years along, and is very real. Cyber attack vectors take place on American "soil" daily. Aggregate data collection is intuitively valuable to pre-emptive and post-event analysis.
I agree Americans deserve privacy protections from prejudice and discrimination for their beliefs or medical history. This is separate and distinct from granting the NSA, FBI and the American Military Cyber War authority and capabilities.
The NSA, FBI and American Military protect us, and understand they are accountable to Congress and the American People. So why would we distrust them?
I agree Americans deserve privacy protections from prejudice and discrimination for their beliefs or medical history. This is separate and distinct from granting the NSA, FBI and the American Military Cyber War authority and capabilities.
The NSA, FBI and American Military protect us, and understand they are accountable to Congress and the American People. So why would we distrust them?
5
The NSA, FBI and military are accountable to who? Our Congress is not OUR Congress, but a group of money grubbing cowards who concern themselves only with reelection, NOT the welfare of the people. This is the fox guarding the hen house. Freedom is not given, it is demanded, and your acquiescence to the ever growing power of the state for our "safety", is exactly what is eroding our REAL freedoms. Your's is the scariest statement I have read on the internet for some time.
In sincerity, I would suggest you research the multitude of ways and incidents in which our military, security apparatus, and law enforcement agencies have trampled our rights and lives in the past. No agency in a democracy deserves blanket trust without strict oversight and accountability.
Russell writes: "The NSA, FBI and American Military protect us, and understand they are accountable to Congress and the American People. So why would we distrust them?"
Because, among many other things, the director of the NSA flat out lied to Congress about its activities.
Contrary to your claim, there is zero accountability. None.
The NSA can and does scoop up every byte of online data your family generates, from Web searches to emails to physical location of phones and the contents of phone calls. The claim that spying is limited to metadata and non US citizens is incorrect, as Snowden has amply demonstrated.
The NSA, FBI, and CIA are the ones you need protection FROM.
Because, among many other things, the director of the NSA flat out lied to Congress about its activities.
Contrary to your claim, there is zero accountability. None.
The NSA can and does scoop up every byte of online data your family generates, from Web searches to emails to physical location of phones and the contents of phone calls. The claim that spying is limited to metadata and non US citizens is incorrect, as Snowden has amply demonstrated.
The NSA, FBI, and CIA are the ones you need protection FROM.
I don't think the Patriot Act is clearly communicated to the American People, and it must be subject to fuzzy interpretation because some GOP and DEM senators say one thing and some say the other. Either they can get at private info about people who are not suspects or they can't; Either there is a fuzzy place for abuse of data collection or their isn't.
The House has written a new bill for this, can we PLEASE hear the details and find out why Obama doesn't like it? so we can make our own decisions? There is always something secret or something fishy or some opportunity for someone somewhere that makes citizens curious.
The Clintons had FBI files at the White House to read up on people in the Senate. Without any Patriot Act, they went and got the paper files. Someone was spying on Sheryl Atkisson, who wasn't doing anything wrong. And Who was it spying on Diane Feinstein and the House and Senate phones?
I do want the ability to track the Lone Wolfs and non citizens phoning, emailing and texting into our country from suspicious places. Can we get the law right? can we get it basically against terror activity? Can we shut down "free speech" from terror harboring countries? I think its legal, they are not citizens. Ask what is in that House bill, and get something passed.
The House has written a new bill for this, can we PLEASE hear the details and find out why Obama doesn't like it? so we can make our own decisions? There is always something secret or something fishy or some opportunity for someone somewhere that makes citizens curious.
The Clintons had FBI files at the White House to read up on people in the Senate. Without any Patriot Act, they went and got the paper files. Someone was spying on Sheryl Atkisson, who wasn't doing anything wrong. And Who was it spying on Diane Feinstein and the House and Senate phones?
I do want the ability to track the Lone Wolfs and non citizens phoning, emailing and texting into our country from suspicious places. Can we get the law right? can we get it basically against terror activity? Can we shut down "free speech" from terror harboring countries? I think its legal, they are not citizens. Ask what is in that House bill, and get something passed.
Have you simply given up reporting for promoting? This article like a number of them treats a United States Senator who has both courage and conviction as though he was inferior to the wisdom of the NYT editorial staff. If you want to be pro-America you should demean people like McConnell, Obama, McCain, Brennan, Clapper and those who are pushing us dangerously right as a nation. Instead you show disdain for the Rand Pauls, Sanders, Snowdens.
Either just report objectively or pick a side that your readers support. You may notice the great gap between your Reader Picks & NYT Picks in the comments columns. They should be in harmony not conflict.
I think Senator Paul is being heroic on this issue and so do millions of other Americans.
Either just report objectively or pick a side that your readers support. You may notice the great gap between your Reader Picks & NYT Picks in the comments columns. They should be in harmony not conflict.
I think Senator Paul is being heroic on this issue and so do millions of other Americans.
10
First of all, we must understand that the government has no right to spy on the private lives of citizens. This isn't about national security but about collecting personal data.
17
Funny we have no problem sending our kids to fight for "freedom" around the world, but here at home, we will gladly sacrifice those same freedoms for OUR security...seems rather cowardly and un-American.
Why is Rand Paul the only person crazy enough to take a sane position on this.
To get phone records you should need a warrant. If the warrant process is too slow, then find solutions to expedite that vs. gathering everyone's data.
To get phone records you should need a warrant. If the warrant process is too slow, then find solutions to expedite that vs. gathering everyone's data.
77
A close family member was walking directly under the Towers when the second plane hit on 9/11 and she will tell you that an act of terror like that is the ultimate curtailment of freedom.
Demanding the absolute freedom to make calls, send e-mails and engage with total freedom in other forms of communication with absolutely no monitoring whatever in today's milieu of asymmetric terrorism -- including hundreds of "sleepers" living within our borders -- is analogous to the unmonitored "freedom" to drive the streets of New York City as fast as you want with no red lights, stop signs or "intrusive" police officers "sticking their noses" into the drivers' freedoms. Ludicrous, right? But not nearly as ludicrous as thinking that we can safely eliminate all the provisions of the Patriot Act that -- with the exception of the terrible Boston bombings -- has kept our people safe for a decade and a half -- during one of the most dangerous eras in our homeland's history. Red lights and police traffic control curtail freedom but they also reduce deaths substantially -- So too does the Patriot Act.
Demanding the absolute freedom to make calls, send e-mails and engage with total freedom in other forms of communication with absolutely no monitoring whatever in today's milieu of asymmetric terrorism -- including hundreds of "sleepers" living within our borders -- is analogous to the unmonitored "freedom" to drive the streets of New York City as fast as you want with no red lights, stop signs or "intrusive" police officers "sticking their noses" into the drivers' freedoms. Ludicrous, right? But not nearly as ludicrous as thinking that we can safely eliminate all the provisions of the Patriot Act that -- with the exception of the terrible Boston bombings -- has kept our people safe for a decade and a half -- during one of the most dangerous eras in our homeland's history. Red lights and police traffic control curtail freedom but they also reduce deaths substantially -- So too does the Patriot Act.
5
"Demanding the absolute freedom to make calls, send e-mails and engage with total freedom in other forms of communication with absolutely no monitoring ... is analogous to the unmonitored "freedom" to drive the streets of New York City as fast as you want"
Uhh -- Freedom of speech and freedom to drive are not exactly the equivalent. The former is a founding right; indeed, it is a right codified in the First Amendment of our Constitution; upon this freedom the existence of the United States as a democracy is based. Driving, on the other hand, is a privilege, an important privilege, true, but not a right. Moreover freedom of speech is regulated, to some degree, as driving is, to prevent harm. You cannot libel under the First Amendment; you cannot shout fire in a crowded theater as a hoax.
Surveillance of communications under the Patriot Act inhibited free speech. When you know someone is watching what you say, you also watch what you say, and you may decide not to say something, even if you believe it is true and important. Inhibition of that kind would inevitably stifle our democracy.
Uhh -- Freedom of speech and freedom to drive are not exactly the equivalent. The former is a founding right; indeed, it is a right codified in the First Amendment of our Constitution; upon this freedom the existence of the United States as a democracy is based. Driving, on the other hand, is a privilege, an important privilege, true, but not a right. Moreover freedom of speech is regulated, to some degree, as driving is, to prevent harm. You cannot libel under the First Amendment; you cannot shout fire in a crowded theater as a hoax.
Surveillance of communications under the Patriot Act inhibited free speech. When you know someone is watching what you say, you also watch what you say, and you may decide not to say something, even if you believe it is true and important. Inhibition of that kind would inevitably stifle our democracy.
1
This is absolutely not the most dangerous time to live in our nation - by nearly all measures we are safer than ever before. I also don't see an existential threat to our nation from terrorists, be they ISIS, al Qaeda, or domestic disgruntles - automobiles are more dangerous than these miscreants. I also don't see anything in our behavior indicative that we are the home of the brave - quite the contrary, evidenced by opinions like yours.
1
You are delusional to think that the Patriot Act would have stopped 9/11. 9/11 would never have happened if the US government didn't enrage hundreds of millions of people in the middle east by causing horrific suffering of innocent people. Good policy and being a good global citizen prevents people from wanting to kill you. Spying en masse on every person on the globe is a futile attempt to prevent real grievances.
Equating red light cameras which automates something police are legally allowed to do to government illegally peering into your emails, phone calls, hard drives, online files, your banking and tracking every place you go and with no oversight or accountability is a ludicrous comparison. Get your head out of the sand.
Equating red light cameras which automates something police are legally allowed to do to government illegally peering into your emails, phone calls, hard drives, online files, your banking and tracking every place you go and with no oversight or accountability is a ludicrous comparison. Get your head out of the sand.
The so-called "Patriot" Act should die a horrible death, with no resurrection.
11
I would like to know why the Republican population is always crying out loud about FREEDOM and now, they want the government going through evrything they do with a phone. What is it?
5
Whether or not one supports the Patriot Act ( I was against it way back when), there is a serious flaw in the system when a single individual ( in this case not the President, though one hoping to become the next President) can stop dead in its tracks whatever national security system the country with the initial consent of the Congress has adopted. If anything, the Senate should learn from this debacle and consider revising its rules to ensure that the democratic process is not uprooted by a single person whom the national electorate has not chosen to lead the nation.
4
Clearly you're not familiar with the working of your own senate or your own government for that matter. Rand Paul on his own did not cause the Patriot Act to expire. The lack of votes caused it to expire. He was the champion who rallied enough support from like minded democrats and republicans to result a lack of votes to push the legislation through. Those votes represent a heck of a lot of Americans, not just Rand Paul.
"However, the Justice Department may invoke a so-called grandfather clause to keep using those powers for investigations that had started before June 1, and there are additional workarounds investigators may use to overcome the lapse in the authorization"
The problem with this statement is that the Supreme Court already found that it was unlawful to do this, and so they cannot continue under any unlawful grandfather authorization. They must stop.
Do we want China, Russia and North Korea to be able to hack into a central database and have access to all our emails and phone records? Or do we want the records encrypted and stored offline, accessible only by court order? I like the later.
The problem with this statement is that the Supreme Court already found that it was unlawful to do this, and so they cannot continue under any unlawful grandfather authorization. They must stop.
Do we want China, Russia and North Korea to be able to hack into a central database and have access to all our emails and phone records? Or do we want the records encrypted and stored offline, accessible only by court order? I like the later.
Bravo for Rand Paul, even though his move is a delaying tactic and will not stop the NSA from its institutionalized paranoia. But the larger picture is this: super-patriots in competing state-corporate nationalisms around the globe will continue to combat one another by every means possible. Which means an extenuation of an "enemies everywhere" mindset leading power-mad thugs like the rulers of China and Russia and -- yes -- the USA to sacrifice everything in the pursuit of the ongoing mirage of so-called security.
6
Isn't it ironic that the very politicians who run against government, and pretend to be Libertarians are solidly in favor of allowing that same government to spy upon all of us? Who is kidding who here? Then to add insult to injury, the Democrat President who is also Nobel Laureate, and damned by them for being a socialist cosmopolitan is allied with them against us...the People to be spied upon! How can it possibly get any sillier, and we are stuck with having to watch all of this nonsense as a mute, but captive, peanut gallery.
5
So, now they can't do what they said they wouldn't do, but did?
I see no difference. I still believe in our rights even though big government does not. It's already been admitted that the phone "spying" has NOT resulted in any terrorist threats, only the dis-trust of the citizens of this once great country.
I see no difference. I still believe in our rights even though big government does not. It's already been admitted that the phone "spying" has NOT resulted in any terrorist threats, only the dis-trust of the citizens of this once great country.
3
Good morning. The time is 9:20 PM. The date is June 1st, 2015. In other news, freedom draws a breath.
Let's not be so quick to choke it this time.
Let's not be so quick to choke it this time.
6
Wars over, move on.
1
Officials like President Obama, McConnell, McCain, and Clapper (who should be prosecuted for perjury, btw) are so influenced and co-opted by the endless fear-stoking of the Military Industrial Complex that they are willing to let our Fourth Amendment rights to die the death of a thousand cuts. Thankfully individuals like this were not tasked with forming our nation -we would likely have no Bill of Rights at all.
I am astonished, and pleased- as a lifelong Democrat and proud progressive and liberal- to be so encouraged by Senator Paul's stand on privacy. On this issue he appears to be a true patriot. How shameful that he would meet such a headwind of opposition on an issue of basic freedom that should be no controversy at all.
I am astonished, and pleased- as a lifelong Democrat and proud progressive and liberal- to be so encouraged by Senator Paul's stand on privacy. On this issue he appears to be a true patriot. How shameful that he would meet such a headwind of opposition on an issue of basic freedom that should be no controversy at all.
9
Now tell me, did the NSA shut down?
Really. Did this shut down the NSA?
Or is it still up and running illegally at this very moment?
The public will never be told. The surveillance state probably can't be shut down, only be pushed into hiding.
Really. Did this shut down the NSA?
Or is it still up and running illegally at this very moment?
The public will never be told. The surveillance state probably can't be shut down, only be pushed into hiding.
8
Rand Paul for President! - the rest are just communists.
6
Where does Hillary stand? Why no probing of her position on this critical issue?
6
No US citizen should be subject to 24/7 surveillance, no US citizen should be considered a suspect until a crime has been committed
Comments like, "If you are not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" defeat the purpose of a free society, allow the government to spy on you, save the records and then use them against you...many times for no reason
The CIA, NSA are simply tools for paranoid elected officials who live off fear, period
Good luck to us all
Comments like, "If you are not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" defeat the purpose of a free society, allow the government to spy on you, save the records and then use them against you...many times for no reason
The CIA, NSA are simply tools for paranoid elected officials who live off fear, period
Good luck to us all
8
Whether it is this specific issue or another, what we have in this country is a completely disfunctional govt with no checks and balances. When 1 person can stall any govt program we are fooling ourselves that we are represented, that our country is not for sale, that we have any civil protections. Time for everyone to start shouting from the rooftops that we want a responsible assemble of representatives that look out for civil interests collectively. Lone wolfs need not apply.
Sometimes it takes a lone voice in the wilderness to arouse us to see what is happening around us, but you are correct that this should be an issue that engages the entire Congress in preserving our rights under the Constitution.
I am a staunch Progressive and Senator Paul is the one of a very small number of heroes in the Senate, right now. Most of them, including our own Senators from New York, are acting like cowardly scoundrels. But you wouldn't know that from reading this article, which indirectly endorses the idea that ending the massive and illegal spying on American citizens will somehow raise the threat of terror. That is an insulting idea that came out of the fevered imagination of Dick Cheney and deserves nothing but scorn. Instead, it's being defended by President Obama, of all people, who railed against it prior to being elected. Where is Hillary at this historic moment? Why is the Times not excoriating politicians on both sides of the aisle for either their fear-mongering idiocy or their cowardly silence?
8
A lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about the NSA phone number data collection is in the media and public. The whole idea is for the NSA to identify terrorists BEFORE they commit some heinous act NOT after the act has occurred. This confusion is because the rand paul & oboma crowd and many liberals believe the war on terror is not a war, but is ordinary police work in which the perp is arrested after committing the crime not crime prevention. Conclusion is, liberals, oboma and rand paul would rather have a terror act occur first so they can arrest the terrorists rather than identifying them beforehand and preventing the crime from occurring. Truth is, liberalism is a crime.
Poor leftists.
They hate the Patriot Act, but they also hate the GOP so much that they have to bash the law without giving credit to Rand Paul (who I do not support for president).
They hate the Patriot Act, but they also hate the GOP so much that they have to bash the law without giving credit to Rand Paul (who I do not support for president).
3
McConnell and the republicans love the Patriot Act not for what it does, but for the kickbacks they received from the "industry of survalience" they created. Once again republicans putting themselves first ahead of the United States and the people.
9
Rand Paul is a Republican, but okay.
1
Really! And Democrats such as Diane Feinstein are not part of the problem?
Although you may be shocked by my attitude, I must write that I am in favor of extrajudicial action against confirmed imminent threats to America, but regarding the wholesale surveillance of the entire innocent American public, I am heartily opposed. The feds are hamstrung too much with regard to the real threats while they wrongly fish for suspects among innocents.
1
"However, the Justice Department may invoke a so-called grandfather clause to keep using those powers for investigations that had started before June 1, and there are additional workarounds investigators may use to overcome the lapse in the authorizations."
LOL. So essentially the government can continue its mass gathering of data, this time clearly outside the law, by using several "workarounds." If that's the case why extend the Patriot Act (or the even more ridiculously-named USA Freedom Act) at all? The government is going to do what it wants to do, why the charade?
LOL. So essentially the government can continue its mass gathering of data, this time clearly outside the law, by using several "workarounds." If that's the case why extend the Patriot Act (or the even more ridiculously-named USA Freedom Act) at all? The government is going to do what it wants to do, why the charade?
4
Does anyone seriously believe that the concept of privacy actually exists anymore -- Patriot Act or no?
There is a curious but futile desire to return to a past that is completely gone and will never return. Never will we be safe from nuclear weapons. Never will the climate be the same. And never will you be able to escape the relentless fact that computers will track everything you do all the time. If not the government, then corporate marketers. If not them, then political functionaries.
Better to work on "public and accountable" than "secret". Bring all of your secrets and my secrets out in the open and let everybody decide on a more level field.
There is a curious but futile desire to return to a past that is completely gone and will never return. Never will we be safe from nuclear weapons. Never will the climate be the same. And never will you be able to escape the relentless fact that computers will track everything you do all the time. If not the government, then corporate marketers. If not them, then political functionaries.
Better to work on "public and accountable" than "secret". Bring all of your secrets and my secrets out in the open and let everybody decide on a more level field.
4
@ Dan Mabutt,
You are incorrect sir. Computers are designed to be as they are. They could just as easily be designed to function independently and not exchange as much info as they do when they network. There is no necessity to track us or data mine us.
The design was based on avarice not the feigned altruism those designers wish to be given credit for. Just as google likes to tell us how wonderful they are and how much better are lives are because of them the proof is in the pudding, they do as they please because the real driver is avarice.
Pursuit of a profitable business is not avarice. Pursuit of profit by any means necessary is.
You are incorrect sir. Computers are designed to be as they are. They could just as easily be designed to function independently and not exchange as much info as they do when they network. There is no necessity to track us or data mine us.
The design was based on avarice not the feigned altruism those designers wish to be given credit for. Just as google likes to tell us how wonderful they are and how much better are lives are because of them the proof is in the pudding, they do as they please because the real driver is avarice.
Pursuit of a profitable business is not avarice. Pursuit of profit by any means necessary is.
2
Your secrets are already out there for consumption by those willing to pay for them.
Don't you wonder why Facebook and Google don't charge you for using them? Could it be because they are gathering and selling your information as their business model? Everyone from college admission officers to prospective employers now examine your Facebook postings looking for various personal qualities. Commercial concerns use your Google searches to direct pinpointed advertising directly to you, so your secrets are not your own if your postings and web searches are discoverable by anyone willing to pay for them. Remember, if two people know something, it is not a secret!
Don't you wonder why Facebook and Google don't charge you for using them? Could it be because they are gathering and selling your information as their business model? Everyone from college admission officers to prospective employers now examine your Facebook postings looking for various personal qualities. Commercial concerns use your Google searches to direct pinpointed advertising directly to you, so your secrets are not your own if your postings and web searches are discoverable by anyone willing to pay for them. Remember, if two people know something, it is not a secret!
You missed the point entirely. Of course it's avarice. It always has been and will continue to be. The only question is, "What should we do about it." You want to try to spoon back the tide with a teacup. I want move to higher ground.
Thank you, Senator Paul. I know in the end, nothing much will change from Big Brother's ability to track us all and know our lives through metadata, but I am grateful that Sen. Paul tried to bring Americans' attention to the loss of our civil liberties. So many people care so passionately about the 2nd Amendment. I know the 4th to be the most important to our freedom.
The question I have about the Patriot Act is, how was it rolled out so fast after 9/11? Who was ready for it to become law so quickly? Who wrote it ahead of time?
Perhaps if I had been in New York or Washington on 9/11, I would feel that it is ok to take away our civil liberties, the most extreme protection being necessary. All I could see (at the time and now) was the set-up for Big Brother surveillance. And that I abhor. East Germany, USSR anyone? All my life I have been told how lucky I am to live in a country which would never, ever do what those two countries did. And yet....some people in power were immediately ready to destroy the 4th Amendment. Well, I'm with Ben Franklin on this.
Again, thank you Sen. Paul. I feel some relief from what you have done.
The question I have about the Patriot Act is, how was it rolled out so fast after 9/11? Who was ready for it to become law so quickly? Who wrote it ahead of time?
Perhaps if I had been in New York or Washington on 9/11, I would feel that it is ok to take away our civil liberties, the most extreme protection being necessary. All I could see (at the time and now) was the set-up for Big Brother surveillance. And that I abhor. East Germany, USSR anyone? All my life I have been told how lucky I am to live in a country which would never, ever do what those two countries did. And yet....some people in power were immediately ready to destroy the 4th Amendment. Well, I'm with Ben Franklin on this.
Again, thank you Sen. Paul. I feel some relief from what you have done.
6
It's real easy for the arm chair quarterbacks to second guess the Patriot Act. Since they make wild accusations I would ask this. What intelligence did you personally gather in the first few weeks that would allow you to come to a different conclusion than what trained professionals decided
Second, what would you do as far as
1) Coordinating with the intelligence agencies of our allies?
2) What changes would you have done to secure potential sites?
3) what would you do to ensure our water was not poisonedor smart bombs potentially detonated?
4) How would you instruct our embassies to proceed?
5) Would you have restricted overseas travel?
6) Would you have increased security at airports?
7) Would you create a terrorist watch list? If not, why not?
One final question. Where were all your positive suggestions and ideas? You're smarter than the pros, heck you might get the Congressional Medal of Freedom . It's the least we can do for those of you who walk on water
Second, what would you do as far as
1) Coordinating with the intelligence agencies of our allies?
2) What changes would you have done to secure potential sites?
3) what would you do to ensure our water was not poisonedor smart bombs potentially detonated?
4) How would you instruct our embassies to proceed?
5) Would you have restricted overseas travel?
6) Would you have increased security at airports?
7) Would you create a terrorist watch list? If not, why not?
One final question. Where were all your positive suggestions and ideas? You're smarter than the pros, heck you might get the Congressional Medal of Freedom . It's the least we can do for those of you who walk on water
You're ignoring that the system the NSA operates is total and indiscriminate. Far beyond what is needed.
1
@ HealedByGod,
Yours is a false premise based in the assumption that we were never lied to. The proof of how deceitful and manipulative the W admin was should be enough for any one to question every single action of his administration.
The correct standard to apply here is "Show me the proof that this program has given us anything that doing honest police work would not have."
To answer the rest of your post, everything necessary to deal with September 11th already existed and was in place on September 10th.
Yours is a false premise based in the assumption that we were never lied to. The proof of how deceitful and manipulative the W admin was should be enough for any one to question every single action of his administration.
The correct standard to apply here is "Show me the proof that this program has given us anything that doing honest police work would not have."
To answer the rest of your post, everything necessary to deal with September 11th already existed and was in place on September 10th.
2
We're not the people swearing up and down that our leaders walk on water.
2
So Mr. Reid says Mr. McConnell failed because McConnell didn't give Mr. Obama what Mr. Obama wanted? hmmm.
I guess Mr. Reid think success means always getting your own way.
I guess Mr. Reid think success means always getting your own way.
4
Mr. McConnell failed because r McConnell did not get what Mr. McConnell wanted.
Don't be too sanguine about the effect of this temporary hiatus - I am sure the temporary gaps in US suveillance can easily be filled by British surveillance who work as permanent fully fledged subcontractors to the US, who have always been capable of surveillance that would be forbidden under US law. This will also give the British government the opportunity to show it can be useful to the US when serious doubts are arising concerning the usefulness of the GB-US collaboration other than as a cat's paw in relations with the European Union.
3
According to NYTimes the NSA has an over cite board which has found no wrong doing with evidence to support it. When was the last time public relied on this board to protect America's privacy. And still no details of any investigations have been released. Let me guess it's classified to protect the investigator's identity.
3
Beyond the privacy rights issues, which are the most important ones in this matter and which have been well articulated by others, is the irksome attitude of the intelligence community that it knows better what is good for the public than the public does. The public wants its privacy rights respected and it knows that is good for them.
7
Whether or not one supports the Patriot Act ( I was against it way back when), there is a serious flaw in the system when a single individual ( in this case not the President, though one hoping to become the next President) can stop dead in its tracks whatever national security system the country with the initial consent of the Congress has adopted. If anything, the Senate should learn from this debacle and consider revising its rules to ensure that the democratic process is not uprooted by a single individual whom the national electorate has not chosen to lead the nation. Whatever happened to appropriate checks and balances within the legislative branch ?
2
Why is it a serious problem that the rights of minorities (in this case, political minorities) are protected from being overridden by the majority?
We do not have to go far from where we are now to the point where the government will collect all private communications and store them for future reference in case someone is later implicated in the commission of a crime at which time the government could then inspect all that person's communications to see if there is any useful evidence regarding the commission of the crime.
This is not a question of protecting criminals, it is a question of protecting basic privacy rights from an overly intrusive government. We see what can happen with anti-money laundering laws that were initially passed to deal with terrorism and drug dealing. They are now being used for much broader purposes that, initially, were not intended.
This is not a question of protecting criminals, it is a question of protecting basic privacy rights from an overly intrusive government. We see what can happen with anti-money laundering laws that were initially passed to deal with terrorism and drug dealing. They are now being used for much broader purposes that, initially, were not intended.
7
Having a hard time adjusting to the modern age, guy? Sorry, but Rand Paul reveals himself an enemy of the state by trying to consort with our enemies. Your own pathological paranoia is nothing short of arrogant, as if the government was interested in your calls to the pizza parlor. Unless you are hooking up with an Islamic terrorist, we are not interested. Your wife, maybe, but not us.
Rand Paul - HERO
When the history is written on the political and cultural implications of the Patriot Act it will be noted that a lone Senator came forth and defended the civil liberties of the silent majority. The constitution at work protecting the free speech rights of the minority to defend against the tyranny of the majority.
When the history is written on the political and cultural implications of the Patriot Act it will be noted that a lone Senator came forth and defended the civil liberties of the silent majority. The constitution at work protecting the free speech rights of the minority to defend against the tyranny of the majority.
11
Nah, not really. He is an enemy of America, willing to put our people at risk by promoting his archaic ideas of privacy. As difficult as it may be, we are living in a different day. Try adjusting.
No, John McCain, Sarah Palin was the worst candidate the Republicans have put forward in recent memory, and you John, made that happen. No, John, you lost your way awhile ago; it's time for you to begin to collect your pension.
15
John McCain is ample evidence that military people should not be allowed to seek political office. They just might get in office and fulfill the oxymoron "military intelligence." John was nearly washed out of the military, had it not been for his influential parents who came to his rescue. He need to retire to arid Arizona and shut up. Please?
Do these clowns even realize this act goes against the Constitution?????? If this act is extended I hope the NSA goes after Mitch McConnell and John McCain. I'm certain they both have a lot to hide. And President Obama has been a great disappointment on this. He should know better. Kudos to Rand Paul for blocking this.
9
I'm a life-long republican, and CT/NS professional. I wrote to both my US Senators asking them to oppose the euphemistic USA Freedom Act, and the bulk surveillance collection provisions. We need to reign in government encroachment disguised as national security. Everything, from license plate readers and facial recognition technology, should be strictly regulated, and bulk data collection isn't the key to stopping terrorism in the US, but like in every case since 9/11, observant persons providing tips to law enforcement who used standard investigative methodology and laws to bring down terror cells.
7
Do private corporations record and keep your digital records? Why is it that you are not at all concerned about that? It is stunning to see a "life-long Republican" begging for regulations. How quaint. But only when he thinks he has skin in the game - which you don't, if you are not talking with terrorists.
The very notion that there is privacy on smart phones is laughable. Can I smash every cell phone in public who might be violating my "privacy?" Think for a minute [I know this is a lot to ask]. You don't HAVE such an idealistic freedom, really. How about simply assuring that there are adequate safeguards in place to limit the use of such data? Surprisingly, I am for much smaller regulations than you, a right wing Republican.
The very notion that there is privacy on smart phones is laughable. Can I smash every cell phone in public who might be violating my "privacy?" Think for a minute [I know this is a lot to ask]. You don't HAVE such an idealistic freedom, really. How about simply assuring that there are adequate safeguards in place to limit the use of such data? Surprisingly, I am for much smaller regulations than you, a right wing Republican.
The evidence shows that the Patriot Act is no threat to any of us. Despite the concerns of civil libertarians, not one conversation or text between Wall Street traders who profited illegally from insider trading has been uncovered. Not a single bank official who approved false mortgage applications, collaborated in money laundering schemes for drug kingpins or U.S. business trading with iran has been indicted or convicted on the basis of intercepted conversations. Certainly, if the Patriot Act were effective, once--please God!, just once--one of these financial terrorists would have been apprehended. So, law-abiding Americans clearly have nothing to be concerned about, unless you have paranoid bent, in which case it's time to be extremely fearful either about the program's incompetence or those it protects, rather than detects.
5
I fully agree. But in the hands of Republicans, I fear that even that could be expanded to assist and protect Wall Street firms and corporations who already violate freedoms 100 time more than the government ever does. We need to rein in corporate snooping into the lives of Americans and provide adequate safeguards for government surveillance. But get rid of the program? That is absolutely nuts.
Of course not - this surveillance is for political "crimes", not financial ones.
Fantastic! what a courageous action by Rand Paul. He has won my vote and my financial support until his Presidential victory. The jokes of the evening are on McConnell as always and also "Lindsey" (eye-roll) Graham. Obama should take a long hard look at real American Leadership. In fact, he should resign in shame tomorrow morning.
6
Rand Paul is the only patriot here. McConnell, Obama, Clapper and McCain are exposing themselves as ignorant and well, un-American. They have been corrupted by power and just don't get it. You cannot fight ignorant and backward fundamentalists with ignorant and backward policies.
And thank you, Edward Snowden.
And thank you, Edward Snowden.
8
The Stasi mindset is firmly entrenched in the government of the United States, and within the governmens of their four partners in the Five Eyes Alliance.
This "expiration" is simply theatre for the masses, another wining card played as a diversionary tactic.
For anyone to presume that a government that hid, illegally, with no qualms whatsoever, the most historic shredding of our Constitution and our Bill of Rights, would now restore our liberties, is pure folly.
I guarantee McConnell, and his cabal slept soundly last night, knowing full well, the American people were as comatose as ever.
This "expiration" is simply theatre for the masses, another wining card played as a diversionary tactic.
For anyone to presume that a government that hid, illegally, with no qualms whatsoever, the most historic shredding of our Constitution and our Bill of Rights, would now restore our liberties, is pure folly.
I guarantee McConnell, and his cabal slept soundly last night, knowing full well, the American people were as comatose as ever.
7
At a minimum, we as a country should be weighing the costs of foregone privacy against the benefits of greater security. Evidence for the former exists; evidence for the latter is skimpy... to say the least. Let a reasoned discussion begin.
4
What's wrong with me? I am not the least bit concerned that my phone records are being kept. My life is that boring, I guess. I am much more concerned that we are leaving ourselves open to attack.
Wait just a minute, a pop-up ad is appearing on my screen because yesterday I Googled something. How did they know that?
Something's not right here.
Wait just a minute, a pop-up ad is appearing on my screen because yesterday I Googled something. How did they know that?
Something's not right here.
4
Exactly. That is unfettered corporate spying, and who can trust them, those non-taxpaying corporations who consort with any enemy who is able to help their profits. Seems no one seems to be concerned about how they are monitoring your very keystrokes, but no one cares about THAT! I do.
2
Do you really think America's rogue agencies care what Congress authorizes?
Voyeurism and fear of the unknownable - aren't these drivers that trump any concerns about incomprehensible rules and laws, toothless enforcement and a corrupt and corruptible AG and judiciary?
Voyeurism and fear of the unknownable - aren't these drivers that trump any concerns about incomprehensible rules and laws, toothless enforcement and a corrupt and corruptible AG and judiciary?
6
It took Rand Paul and 14 years to get this abomination off the books! Way to go Rand! Someone who lost but won - it is Edward Snowden.
7
So we've got a democratic president pushing bad surveillance legislation along with a republican senate leader pushing it too. Thank goodness Rand Paul stood up for common sense and the constitution freedoms we are supposed to enjoy.
I'm giving to Paul's campaign even if I don't think he's the ideal candidate. At least he stands up for something important, unlike the puppets in charge at the White House, Senate and House.
I'm giving to Paul's campaign even if I don't think he's the ideal candidate. At least he stands up for something important, unlike the puppets in charge at the White House, Senate and House.
6
Paul must believe he'll win a great deal of support from the young (who don't participate in voting too much). However these are the same young citizens who spend vast amounts of time online, on the internet and using free services that collect personal information, habits, living styles and connections to others. That's who they trust while Paul and his libertarians want to eviscerate the federal government. Really, do states do a better job protecting citizens? It's variable. I always think twice before considering the next state I may visit.
1
OK, a small victory. Let's keep moving forward. Get rid of the TSA at all airports and send them to the docks. They are a bloated, sloth-like agency that does more harm than good where they are now.
After that, let's get rid of Richard Nixon's DEA.
Then, let's break up the DHS and go back to the infighting that existed for decades among those agencies.
That would be progress.
After that, let's get rid of Richard Nixon's DEA.
Then, let's break up the DHS and go back to the infighting that existed for decades among those agencies.
That would be progress.
8
Obama and the administration lost all credibility on surveillance and intelligence when James Clapper lied to Congress, and Obama did not then immediately fire him. People of good will can reasonably disagree about the need to collect metadata, but lying to Congress and the American people is inexcusable. Let the Patriot Act expire, all of it. Then Obama can make his case to America, openly and transparently.
11
The Fourth Amendment was written before the days of covert, sophisticated, terrorism, capable of destroying thousands of innocent Americans. I doubt very much if the founders meant to compromise our national security by writing the Fourth Amendment. The Amendment reads, that the people should be protected against "unreasonable searches." In view of the present situation of incipient mass terrorism, I think that such searches as the NSA needs are not at all "unreasonable" and should not be proscribed.
And the part about probable cause?
Oh that!!
Oh that!!
The Patriot Act, another measure Hillary Clinton supported when she was U.S. Senator: does she still oppose the Senate expiration of NSA bulk data collection of our communications this weekend? In her campaign, Hillary Clinton's stump speeches open with the preposterous claim "This is about you," while her State Dept. emails from mega million dollar donors to her Clinton Foundation scream, "This is about me!" Sen. Rand Paul's question, "Who will defend our security and privacy from our rogue defenders?" has never bothered her. Why should it? She has her own security; and she can afford her own private internet server.
3
The fact that Senator McCain believes him to be unfit for the presidency is making seriously consider--for the first time--voting for Senator Paul.
4
the entire disastrous act should die, never to resurrect.
4
Between President Obama's furious push for the TPP - even running over Elizabeth Warren - and his demand to maintain the spy-on-Americans un-Patriotic Act, he's looking more and more like a Republican. Have you noticed lately that he's lost that little bounce in his step and that he's stiffer?? In fact his stride is now identical to Mitch McConnell's. They're like a team of harnessed horses.
And the claim is - despite this little setback - that they will continue to work together to find a way to keep spying on Average Americans and shipping their jobs and futures overseas.
Yes, they sure are quite a team: all hitched up and ready to do the one percent's bidding. I love the smell of an oligarchy in the morning. It makes me feel. . . vindicated.
And the claim is - despite this little setback - that they will continue to work together to find a way to keep spying on Average Americans and shipping their jobs and futures overseas.
Yes, they sure are quite a team: all hitched up and ready to do the one percent's bidding. I love the smell of an oligarchy in the morning. It makes me feel. . . vindicated.
7
"Key Parts of Patriot Act Expire Temporarily as Senate Moves Toward Limits on Spying" Says that Steinhauer and Weisman favor the Patriot Act as they think this is temporary. Let's see if the American people want it anymore. It may be permanent. Given the dysfunction created by Republicans in Congress, many members may feel compelled to act in the interests of their constituents and abandon their leaders who have earned an 80% disapproval rating. Yup, McConnell and Boehner scold Obama for his 46% approval rating are less than 50% of Obama's approval.
Where will leadership come from? Rand Paul?
America, the land of the free and home of the brave, doesn't countenance our government spying on us. Bush and Cheney terrorized us with terror, frightened Americans with lies, to attack Iraq. We are ashamed of succumbing to their exploitation. The Patriot Act, and Homeland Security always had a Third Reich ring to them. It is time to terminate them.
Where will leadership come from? Rand Paul?
America, the land of the free and home of the brave, doesn't countenance our government spying on us. Bush and Cheney terrorized us with terror, frightened Americans with lies, to attack Iraq. We are ashamed of succumbing to their exploitation. The Patriot Act, and Homeland Security always had a Third Reich ring to them. It is time to terminate them.
2
This is very encouraging: The ruling class will now shift its storage of all our communications from the predatory NSA to the predatory monopolists of the 2-3 remaining cell phone companies. I feel so much better!
2
Why does President Obama support the Patriot Act when Senator Obama was so clearly against it? The NSA has him so thoroughly blackmailed that he will do whatever they ask. You cannot give this much unchecked power to an organization and not realistically expect that it will use every resource it has to further its own growth. We already know they have been spying on Congress members. If they are spying on citizens why on earth would you think Obama is immune?
2
This is awesome. I am a reliable conservative voter that either votes Republican or doesn't vote at all. I am hackish on national security. Still, I am appalled that many conservative politicians and pundits alike fail to understand the massive invasion of privacy that represents letting the NSA store on its own terms any information it wants to collect about our communications, including the phone metadata. These politicians and pundits should take some graph theory classes to understand how misguided they are. Perhaps they should move to China if trading security for civil liberties is what they want. I am happy that Snowden's leaks finally bore fruit.
5
The opponents of the bill are setting a new record for smarmy posturing. There is no privacy left in this country and beating up an NSA straw man doesn't change that. If you want privacy, give up your smart phone and stop using the internet.
The European Union has a real right to privacy. None here.
1
• “I’ve said on many occasions that I believe he would be the worst candidate we could put forward,” [Senator John McCain] said.
I guess the senator would suggest another hawk like himself to continue the havoc and chaos.
If not for his stands on abortion and same sex marriage, he's a breath of fresh air and just might be the best thing that's happened in American politics since the now flayed and contorted Constitution was ratified in 1788.
Those are contrary to the libertarian position he purports to adhere to.
“Little by little, we’ve allowed our freedom to slip away.” ~ RAND PAUL
I guess the senator would suggest another hawk like himself to continue the havoc and chaos.
If not for his stands on abortion and same sex marriage, he's a breath of fresh air and just might be the best thing that's happened in American politics since the now flayed and contorted Constitution was ratified in 1788.
Those are contrary to the libertarian position he purports to adhere to.
“Little by little, we’ve allowed our freedom to slip away.” ~ RAND PAUL
2
Senator McConnell would do himself a great service as well as the Senate to read Robert A Caro's "Master of the Senate." Also, if this piece of security legislation was so important (and it is) why did he allow senators to go home for a week while the clock was ticking?
As I stated more than three weeks ago here...not to worry, the American people will in the end get a Snow-den job... nothing will change. Fear and suspicion of us, the American public will continue as always while nothing or little is done to go after the real terrorists.
I don't understand why we allow to deceive ourselves over and over again. We must get rid of the cheaters who want to control every our move.
Good Morning my terrified Americans, no more mass spying. Can you stand it? Or will fear prevail?
5
Why didn't the author put in the exact language from the statute that has expired? We are condemning or extolling one side or the other without any awareness and knowledge of the exact code sections that are being debated. This train has left the station regards of Rand Paul's meager efforts. A New slightly modified law will be enacted and the NSA will turn the lights back on shortly!!!
Remember, the "Patriot Act" was Dick Chaney's, & Rummy's golden child pushed through the Senate all those trillion of dollars of defense appropriation off budget years ago during the days we were looking for weapons of mass destruction as the basis for invading Iraq. We all would not invade Iraq knowing now what we do, and so I guess 'probable cause' and judicial process in the light of day via affidavits can be trusted in a criminal courts of law in order to get appropriate search warrants.
Remember, the "Patriot Act" was Dick Chaney's, & Rummy's golden child pushed through the Senate all those trillion of dollars of defense appropriation off budget years ago during the days we were looking for weapons of mass destruction as the basis for invading Iraq. We all would not invade Iraq knowing now what we do, and so I guess 'probable cause' and judicial process in the light of day via affidavits can be trusted in a criminal courts of law in order to get appropriate search warrants.
I agree. When the terrorist with the briefcase nuclear bomb switches cell phones, we should wait 24 hours to get approval from a judge. Oh shoot! Phone already discarded and you have to watch your wife and kids slowly die of radiation poisoning, not to mention the economy collapses and your retirement savings is gone. Then we will really see government control as martial law is declared. But no complaints please! This is what you wanted.
Hope more people will start supporting Rand Paul. While you may not agree with him on every issue, it's far more important to vote for somebody whom you agree with on most things.
“Little by little, we’ve allowed our freedom to slip away,” Mr. Paul said during a lengthy floor soliloquy.
Freedom is not like suds going down the drain, or air escaping from a tire. It's a complex relation--one man's freedom to do this or that is the unfreedom--the constraint--of EVERYONE else not to interfere--to put up with it, to tolerate it.
Your freedom to own guns and ammo means everyone else must suck up the increased chances of getting shot.
The US suffers from a naive and sentimental elixir conception of freedom--as a magic potion. Its due to linguistic carelessness. The revolutionary war was about freedom-from control and taxation by a foreign government enabling freedom-to use taxes for the public good of the colonies. .
Linguistic shorthand changed "Freedom from foreign government" into "freedom-from government"-- being free-to do whatever you want. Forgetting that your freedom is everyone else's unfreedom.
That Americans might buy the elixir conception--freedom as a magic potion--electing a president championing this logical nonsense is scary.
It can only get worse from there. "Freedom-from government" (even good government) is, after all, anarchy.
Freedom is not like suds going down the drain, or air escaping from a tire. It's a complex relation--one man's freedom to do this or that is the unfreedom--the constraint--of EVERYONE else not to interfere--to put up with it, to tolerate it.
Your freedom to own guns and ammo means everyone else must suck up the increased chances of getting shot.
The US suffers from a naive and sentimental elixir conception of freedom--as a magic potion. Its due to linguistic carelessness. The revolutionary war was about freedom-from control and taxation by a foreign government enabling freedom-to use taxes for the public good of the colonies. .
Linguistic shorthand changed "Freedom from foreign government" into "freedom-from government"-- being free-to do whatever you want. Forgetting that your freedom is everyone else's unfreedom.
That Americans might buy the elixir conception--freedom as a magic potion--electing a president championing this logical nonsense is scary.
It can only get worse from there. "Freedom-from government" (even good government) is, after all, anarchy.
2
As we are all aware of, this specific intrusion into the privacy of the American citizen as well as others have no real effect on curtailing terrorism in America. A simple search of the numbers shows that there is no need for such laws.
When deaths caused by terrorism reaches only the hundreds in nearly 15 years and gun violence is at about 30,000 a year, a child can see where regulation and laws would be most helpful.
When deaths caused by terrorism reaches only the hundreds in nearly 15 years and gun violence is at about 30,000 a year, a child can see where regulation and laws would be most helpful.
2
There are over 300 million firearms in civilian hands in our country and the number you quote is conflated by the high percentage of those deaths being suicides. And, if you cull out the gun deaths from a handful of those cities run for decades by liberal Democrats, the United States is one of the safest countries in the world as measured by firearm deaths.
If you really want to prevent unwarranted deaths, cut down on medical malpractice and the over/mis-prescribing of potentially dangerous drugs.
If you really want to prevent unwarranted deaths, cut down on medical malpractice and the over/mis-prescribing of potentially dangerous drugs.
The one thing that keeps playing over and over in my mind is: "Thank God that John McCain is not our president."
2
Apparently the grand rush to get out of Foggy Bottom was a major factor affecting this minor league comedy of errors. Funny, i must have missed the strident calls by major players to "stay here until we get this crucial issue decided."
Let's face it: Congress wanted to go on vacation more than anything....
Let's face it: Congress wanted to go on vacation more than anything....
Let fear expire. If my government wants to tap my phone, record my meta data, collect my emails and more... I want to see a court order in daylight, no FISA approvals in the dark. If my government wants to collect the same information about my next door neighbor, again... I want to see a court order in daylight.
This is America, don't allow a new bill to pass. Let this be a corner turned. Let fear expire.
This is America, don't allow a new bill to pass. Let this be a corner turned. Let fear expire.
5
Bravo, Senator Paul.
1
The thing I find most amusing about all of this is the idea that the "legality" of the program means anything at all to the NSA. As if.
Anyone who thinks the NSA stopped collecting phone records at midnight because some law wasn't renewed is a fool.
Anyone who thinks the NSA stopped collecting phone records at midnight because some law wasn't renewed is a fool.
2
It is a truism in security work that protecting against spies, saboteurs, and terrorists is much easier in war than in peace time. The renewal of the Patriot Act is a case in point. There are complex security and political issues involved, and the bill to renew deserves extended consideration. What's particularly galling then is the fact that the GOP Senate took off a week last week to do what--make speeches, wave flags, raise campaign funds, chat with the folks? Meanwhile debate on the bill is truncated and the security authorization lapses. Looks like dereliction of duty to me.
1
Thanks you Edward Snowden...the Paul Revere of our day.
1
Paul Revere is only remembered because we won. Snowden is already forgotten because he lost to Obama.
1
The GOP does not consider personal liberty to be of much importance unless they can somehow that social programs are restricting it. But they are consistant with this.
It is the Dms that are maddening. Tey must wet a finger and hold it out of a window to try to judge that days public opinion before casting a vote. They acted like hawks after 9-11 and now they are becoming doves as the national mood swings. They no longer have any standards or platform, and should be completely ashamed of themselves.
It is the Dms that are maddening. Tey must wet a finger and hold it out of a window to try to judge that days public opinion before casting a vote. They acted like hawks after 9-11 and now they are becoming doves as the national mood swings. They no longer have any standards or platform, and should be completely ashamed of themselves.
The Big Brother approach to spying on its citizens is not only unconstitutional, it is unamerican - one of the reasons we rebelled against England. But aside from this core issue, when will we be told how much these programs cost? Can't the money be used to actually save lives? Where is the cost benefit analysis? Why is it necessary to hide the cost?
1
Why weren't any Democrats mentioned as opponents of domestic spying? Were any Democrats opposed?
I don't see any reason to compel the phone companies to do more than they are already doing. They already retain phone records for lengthy periods of time, for ATT, I understand it's seven years which in and of itself is absurd. And there is legitimate concern about the freedom of Americans versus the expensive technological boondoggles that the NSA and FBI have presented as worthwhile when there isn't a single legitimate example of thwarting an attack thanks to the appalling privacy invasion.
Rand Paul has done this country a great service, and his fight against "Big Brother" is not only a worthy fight, but that alone is a reason to consider him presidential material. He certainly is heads and shoulders above the rest of the Republican pack. I applaud his courage. I'm sure it's not easy to withstand the oligarchic pressure on Capitol Hill.
Rand Paul has done this country a great service, and his fight against "Big Brother" is not only a worthy fight, but that alone is a reason to consider him presidential material. He certainly is heads and shoulders above the rest of the Republican pack. I applaud his courage. I'm sure it's not easy to withstand the oligarchic pressure on Capitol Hill.
2
The American People should not let the NSA trample on what their forefathers fought for and built.
It is really sad that the American Constitution is being ignored and their own people are being spied on.
It is really sad that the American Constitution is being ignored and their own people are being spied on.
2
Good Morning my terrified Americans. You have been condemned to freedom. Scary, isn't it. Free societies take guts. Let's see if you can stand it. I doubt it.
1
Freedom is scary, but not nearly as scary as an intrusive government. A citizen's business is her business. We are a free people, and that's worth fighting for.
I don't have to agree with a politician on everything to appreciate efforts in this area. Thank you Senators Paul and Wyden.
I don't have to agree with a politician on everything to appreciate efforts in this area. Thank you Senators Paul and Wyden.
Once again, the F.B.I. spends more time inventing names than catching criminals. Don't be fooled by the name calling. A "Lone Wolf Terrorist" means a suspect. Name calling helps in court and that is why it is used.
I don't hate the feds. I just think they are too powerful and victimizing innocent people. Otherwise, I definitely recognize the need to defend the nation and especially in the heat of the moment, above the law if need be.
I don't hate the feds. I just think they are too powerful and victimizing innocent people. Otherwise, I definitely recognize the need to defend the nation and especially in the heat of the moment, above the law if need be.
Contrary the the claims of Senator McConnell, it is not the civil libertarians who are conducting a campaign of demagoguery, but rather the military industrial complex and intelligence community. Their failure to use information legally available using pre-9/11 laws to prevent 9/11 and other attacks such as the Boston Marathon bombing has been convincingly documented by the independent press. There is no need for the Patriot act or the Freedom act, which are neither patriotic nor freedom promoting. What is required is independent thinking, willingness to change our approach to terrorism, and receptiveness to information coming from outside sources. Sadly, no legislative action could ever bring any of these about.
3
Rand Paul did a good thing tonight. Not only did he restore some freedoms taken from us but also helped reveal the true colors of the Democrat and Republican party. I’m ashamed of the Republican party who is supposed to stand for freedom and liberty, so they say. The two parties are much alike and the big picture is revealing itself.
We need to get Obama out of office and not let another Wall St. Warmonger take his place. No Hillary. No Bush… Let’s go for Rand Paul 2016! I’m glad he stood up for Americans but I’m sad because I know how deceitful our government is.
The middle class is shrinking in Obama-America because Obama is taxing them to oblivion and taking away their healthcare. To be middle class in today’s America is to be poor.
A large percentage of us are on public welfare programs like food stamps, section 8 housing, and SSI, because of low wages. Health insurance is unaffordable (mine is $450/month… contrast this to my $24/month auto insurance from Insurance Panda… or my $11/month renters insurance from Gotham). Two thirds of young adults have student loans to which they cannot pay back due to lack of good jobs in the community.
It is a shame what the government of the greatest country in the world has become.
I like how Rand doesn’t allow himself to be steamrollered by media types and won’t meekly accept their characterizations of his positions like some other Republican doormats of the past.
We need to get Obama out of office and not let another Wall St. Warmonger take his place. No Hillary. No Bush… Let’s go for Rand Paul 2016! I’m glad he stood up for Americans but I’m sad because I know how deceitful our government is.
The middle class is shrinking in Obama-America because Obama is taxing them to oblivion and taking away their healthcare. To be middle class in today’s America is to be poor.
A large percentage of us are on public welfare programs like food stamps, section 8 housing, and SSI, because of low wages. Health insurance is unaffordable (mine is $450/month… contrast this to my $24/month auto insurance from Insurance Panda… or my $11/month renters insurance from Gotham). Two thirds of young adults have student loans to which they cannot pay back due to lack of good jobs in the community.
It is a shame what the government of the greatest country in the world has become.
I like how Rand doesn’t allow himself to be steamrollered by media types and won’t meekly accept their characterizations of his positions like some other Republican doormats of the past.
2
You got what you wanted. Prediction: if Republicans gain control of the White House in 2016 and a major terrorist incident occurs because this legislation is allowed to expire, the level of bile and venom from the left about Republicans not being able to protect this country will be enormous.
1
You are right but isn't up to the rest of us not to play into that sports metaphor (my team right or wrong). Once we stop they will have to stop also.
@Jordan, the Republicans control the House and the Senate and President Obama is pushing them to approve this. You have to stop and update you rhetoric from time to time.
that may be, but the "you got what you wanted" applies to most NYT commenters and I suspect you count yourself among them.
John McCain says Rand Paul is the worst possible candidate for President. But John McCain picked Sarah Palin for his running mate. Who takes that man seriously apart from the press?
4
This is what happens when two senators from Kentucky try to do what is best for America. Not surprised.
As Einstein said. The universe and stupidity are infinite and I am not sure about the universe.
As Einstein said. The universe and stupidity are infinite and I am not sure about the universe.
I enjoy what Ben Franklin said many many years ago: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." A commentator about this article and the Patriot Act spoke of how this "name" seemed to be a slap in the face of what a true patriot was/is. I agree.
1
"The Patriot Act", "Homeland Security" could they have come up with any less Russian communist sounding names?
This was a knee jerk reaction to 9-11 instead of a rationale approach to our dealing with the evolving terrorist movement.
This was a knee jerk reaction to 9-11 instead of a rationale approach to our dealing with the evolving terrorist movement.
2
Now more than ever the US needs these surveillance programs. I have never had a problem with them. I don’t communicate with the bad guys, I don’t use my phone to arrange drug deals; in fact, I use my phone only when I have to and answer it only if I feel like it. When the next terrorist attack occurs, and it will occur, the spineless liberals, led by Rand Paul, will ask why didn’t the nation do something to protect us? Well it did, but you disagreed with it so you could talk and text your superficial lives away. Snowden is the perfect hero for today’s smart phone obsessed generation. A generation unbound by rules and responsibility, free to do their own thing regardless of the consequences to themselves and others, including the nation that provides them safety and security. Snowden, like those who worship him, is a coward; a real man, and those are far and few between these days, would have stood his ground against that which he opposed, but instead he fled. A true coward not a hero; but a hero for the selfish, self absorbed, do your own thing generation. I never thought America would devolve to such a shameful state. RIP America.
2
The word "surveillance" is among the dirtiest, most menacing to civil liberties in the English language, yet it is used banally and automatically--a sure indicator of where we stand as a democratic nation. Fascism is just around the corner. The current debate is overshoe keeps the bulk collection of data, the government or private telecom companies, but NOT whether said collection continues. And the arbiter? A FISA court wholly discredited by its one-sided actions.
The world is watching. Perhaps if the US had not meddled/intervened in the Middle East in the first place, there would be no ISIS. Imperialism has its blowback, only here affecting not only America but the nations we have harmed with our enthusiastic militarism. We've come quite far; there is now no end in sight: continued extremism abroad, matched by growing curtailment of freedom at home.
The world is watching. Perhaps if the US had not meddled/intervened in the Middle East in the first place, there would be no ISIS. Imperialism has its blowback, only here affecting not only America but the nations we have harmed with our enthusiastic militarism. We've come quite far; there is now no end in sight: continued extremism abroad, matched by growing curtailment of freedom at home.
Of course, Senator Paul is right. And wrong. Eletronic surveillance can be useful if used properly. However, celluar phone "metadata" is useless, as those with ill intent use "burner" phones, and toss them in the trash can after use. If this program were as successful as they claim, there would not have been a Boston Marathon bombing or a gun battle in Texas. Which is the point, if they were actually looking to find terrorists, they would have spotted those two without effort, for they were not very cautious in their use of the Internet or social media. This of course means, if they were not fishing for terrorists, who or what are they looking for?
2
Kill the Patriot Act totally.
1
My love-hate feelings towards Senator Paul have now tilted in the love direction. I have to give him credit for taking the lead in protecting us from our own government. The illegal, secret snooping on Americans was only recently disclosed, thanks to the whistle blower Mr. Snowden. While Snowden faces arrest for exposing the criminal behavior of our government, Mr. Clapper is free after lying (excuse me, "telling the least untruth") to congress under oath about the program. Now we can discuss this issue without deadlines, and come up with a plan that works, is constitutional, and cannot be abused.
49
We have become prisoners of labels that preclude any good idea of ever being adopted if it's promoted by someone from the opposite camp. Perhaps Bernie Sanders and Rand Paul should found the Socialist-Libertarian Party.
2
They may agree on foreign policy and a few other things, but Rand is the capitalist senator par excellence and Bernie hates capitalism.
I believe this at least partially vindicates Snowden and we now have an obligation to show him mercy.
1
'The Patriot Act'. If we survive this whole sordid era of lying government, caught by a whistleblower who ran to Russia to escape American Soviet persecution (ya can't make this stuff up), some young student in first grade at the spaceport will ask, "What was the patriot act', and the anti-gravity floating teacher will answer, "Timmy, that's when bad men funded hate and distrust and de-funded the space program, in which we now exalt. Look. I'm floating, for Pete's sake! Watch this, a flip. Wheeee!"
2
It is an amazing moment when a vital civil liberty issue causes chaos within the majority party and strange non-partisan relationships to form. The "status quo" White House only offers scare tactics as diversions, and of course a political "grandstanding" excuse. The "status quo" -- the untargeted mass collection and storage of metadata of American citizens, so much so the government can't even find real terrorist threats within it (David Coleman Headley) -- is ripe for disruption. The government cannot be trusted to gather and hold this information, at will and without open court proceedings, nor can they be trusted to utilize it when it matters the most! The "status quo" is a sham that our children should never get used to.
1
This is the party that thinks they should be in power?
thank you rand et. al.
now they can't pretend to be reauthorizing a law created in fear ,
but legislators granting the federal government the authority to violate their constituents privacy
now they can't pretend to be reauthorizing a law created in fear ,
but legislators granting the federal government the authority to violate their constituents privacy
Underneath all the corporate money and all the political demagoguery is the fact that people aren't as stupid as often assumed. They experience cognitive dissonance when a nation founded upon liberty is governed by people who appear to believe that it only applies to themselves.
2
So we can trust our government with our money but not the metadata needed to keep us safe?
2
Collection of meta data has relatively nothing to do with keeping your money safe.,
1
You cannot trust the government. Period. That's why we have a Bill of Rights!
2
1. Not completely, but more.
2. The metadata are not needed to keep us safe.
2. The metadata are not needed to keep us safe.
A small step toward restoring our civil liberties, but much work is left to be done. I urge everyone to make civil liberties a priority in deciding their vote.
7
Dear Mitch McConnell, et al: Edward Snowden is a Hero and a Patriot. You are certainly not.
9
Snowden is no patriot or hero; he is a coward, or he would have stayed in this country.
1
I agree about the Patriot Act, however the could of been worked on for the last six months, again the GOP has made the US a joke by making every important action by Congress into a last minute circus.
8
More cloak and dagger legislation considered for hasty passage just as the original 2001 "Patriot Act" was passed in haste........with many later learned of surprises. Hurry up and vote for anything. It's called "Shock and Awe".
1
Does anyone believe that the bulk collection actually stopped at midnight? I don't, and I wouldn't believe NSA assurances that the collection did in fact cease. (Why would anyone believe the NSA?)
The Senate will come up with some compromise this week, no doubt, which will be closer to the House version. So in that respect, the absolutist hawks will not get what they want. On the other hand, the NSA will still have other means to get this data - maybe with a bit more difficulty - so I'm not sure how much this matters.
But no government willingly gives up intelligence gathering (can you say KGB? NKVD, Stasi, etc.) unless it is overthrown. History tells us that.
The Senate will come up with some compromise this week, no doubt, which will be closer to the House version. So in that respect, the absolutist hawks will not get what they want. On the other hand, the NSA will still have other means to get this data - maybe with a bit more difficulty - so I'm not sure how much this matters.
But no government willingly gives up intelligence gathering (can you say KGB? NKVD, Stasi, etc.) unless it is overthrown. History tells us that.
6
The NSA should be required to help fix internet vulnerabilities instead of exploiting them. Fixing the vulnerabilities would do far more for security than does bulk data collection!
6
The only reason any Republican is against this is that Obama is for it. I'm glad to see that toxic reflex is having some positive effects
2
Senator McCain: Paul a worse candidate than you?
6
After the attacks of 2001, spy agencies conflated monitoring violent maniacs to a dragnet of monitoring ordinary Americans. This was purposely done to expand the national security state where the individual matters little and the purpose of government is to expand corporate profits and conduct war.
Osama bin Laden and his followers needed to be pursued until captured, but expanding wars to several countries has done nothing to enhance security in the U.S., or maintain the tradition of individual rights in the U.S. that government surveillance threatens.
Osama bin Laden and his followers needed to be pursued until captured, but expanding wars to several countries has done nothing to enhance security in the U.S., or maintain the tradition of individual rights in the U.S. that government surveillance threatens.
3
I never thought I would say this, but I begrudgingly agree with Senator Paul.We cannot let our fear dictate to our better judgement & give uo our right to privacy no matter what the consequences, to do that is to lose the war against terrorism.
15
I too am a bleeding-heart (New York raised) ultraliberal. *But* in a real world we cannot have complete privacy and maximal security. Sometimes principles conflict, and a middle ground must be found.
It is becoming clear that Mr. Snowden is an American hero, not a villain. The federal courts, though not the FISA Court, and Mr. Paul are also heroes.
The real villains seem to be the intelligence officials, who lied to the Congress and to the public. Another set of villains are senators who yesterday lied on the floor of the Senate, one of whom declared that six levels of oversight had prevented the NSA and the FBI from the abusive use of the Patriot Act.
I have never before supported a Republican running for a major office, but it is now likely that I will work for the election of Rand Paul.
The real villains seem to be the intelligence officials, who lied to the Congress and to the public. Another set of villains are senators who yesterday lied on the floor of the Senate, one of whom declared that six levels of oversight had prevented the NSA and the FBI from the abusive use of the Patriot Act.
I have never before supported a Republican running for a major office, but it is now likely that I will work for the election of Rand Paul.
15
Joel:
Agreeing with the thoughts you have posted may I suggest you rethink VOTING for Mr.Rand?
Mr. Snowden is certainly a "hero" however Mr. Rand.......
just saying
Agreeing with the thoughts you have posted may I suggest you rethink VOTING for Mr.Rand?
Mr. Snowden is certainly a "hero" however Mr. Rand.......
just saying
6
Me too, sadly. What happened to Obama, the anti-war guy? He turned on us as soon as he obtained power.
1
I as a Republican am very disappointed in many of those Republicans i the Senate who do not see the un-American quality to spying and collecting US citizen's communications. I am especially angry at my own Senator, Richard Burr who is head of the committee on this.
5
Does anyone think because certain provisions of the Patriot Act have expired that the NSA will simply shut off the switch to bulk data collecting? If they do have them contact me I have a bridge that connects Brooklyn and Manhattan for sale cheap.
3
I stand with Rand, Lee, Amash and others on this. I wish there were more instances of the GOP standing up to the Obama Regime. Since January, the GOP establishment ruling elites have given Obama everything he has wanted...and then some.
The metadata program did not stop the Tsarnaev brothers in Boston, did it?
The metadata program did not stop the Tsarnaev brothers in Boston, did it?
3
Evil is not done by bad people seeking aggrement for a common goal. Evil is much better served by convincing good people to suspend their better judgements to achieve temporary goals that seems important at the time.
This is the way people are conquered. Not from without but from within, when basic long standing principles of duty, trust and honor and most importantly courage are put aside because of the shouting of a few so called "experts".
A favorite tool of these experts is the instilling of fear into decision makers that they alone will be responsible for the calamities that will surely result from their reluctance to throw away the basic principles that have guided this nation for almost 300 years.
What is required is courage. Courage in the knowledge that we are fully capable and able to meet the disasters that are presented to us as unavoidable if we do not follow a preset path by letting go of all basic human rights.
We have come too far, suffered too much, accomplished too much to give away the rights of our people that have been hard won from the battlefields of Lexington to Normandy to appease self appointed experts in the next tragedy to befall us.
There is no substitute for courage to face down the angry stupid devoted fools that are so driven their own fear and panic that they alone know what is best for all of us.
We are in charge of our futures.
This is the way people are conquered. Not from without but from within, when basic long standing principles of duty, trust and honor and most importantly courage are put aside because of the shouting of a few so called "experts".
A favorite tool of these experts is the instilling of fear into decision makers that they alone will be responsible for the calamities that will surely result from their reluctance to throw away the basic principles that have guided this nation for almost 300 years.
What is required is courage. Courage in the knowledge that we are fully capable and able to meet the disasters that are presented to us as unavoidable if we do not follow a preset path by letting go of all basic human rights.
We have come too far, suffered too much, accomplished too much to give away the rights of our people that have been hard won from the battlefields of Lexington to Normandy to appease self appointed experts in the next tragedy to befall us.
There is no substitute for courage to face down the angry stupid devoted fools that are so driven their own fear and panic that they alone know what is best for all of us.
We are in charge of our futures.
4
The Patriot Act is decidedly unpatriotic. It goes against everything that America stands for. The proof is that nobody is calling Rand Paul unpatriotic because everybody knows deep within their hearts that the Patriot Act is wrong. Let it die.
6
Now let's have a similar debate about Google et al.
3
I willingly use Google. If a government entity wishes to gather data on me from Google, they should get a warrant.
Think about it. Considering context, Is it the actual collection of phone data by our government that's a genuine threat to us? If so what might our government do with that data to personally harm us. Or is it more the idea of that that's a concern of those like Paul and others who are against it. In other words, what's the worst thing that might happen if our government continues to collect and store phone data? What's the worst that might happen if they don't? Why would it be better if storage of telephone records is in the hands of the phone companies rather than our government? It's not unusual for human reactions to spontaneously lean toward the emotional component of something, coming from the gut, rather than from well thought out considerations of real consequences.
3
The Patriot act makes really no sense. The only purpose of it is to declassify the fact that the USA is spying not only after some countries and terrorists but also after its own citizens.
NSA has a plenty of spying programs such as ICREACH, PRISM, XKeyscore etc,
the NSA has created an international organization to control the foreign affairs of the partner countries and the opposition.
To be more specific, for example ICREACH is a data base designed to systematize the info about millions of foreigners, living in the USA and its citizens. It archives the info about the phone calls, SMS, GPS tracking by a smart phone, personal connections, religious beliefs and other personal info about millions of Americans and residents.
Do you still believe in a possibility of a private life of yours?
NSA has a plenty of spying programs such as ICREACH, PRISM, XKeyscore etc,
the NSA has created an international organization to control the foreign affairs of the partner countries and the opposition.
To be more specific, for example ICREACH is a data base designed to systematize the info about millions of foreigners, living in the USA and its citizens. It archives the info about the phone calls, SMS, GPS tracking by a smart phone, personal connections, religious beliefs and other personal info about millions of Americans and residents.
Do you still believe in a possibility of a private life of yours?
1
The real lesson here is that republicans can't govern.
3
Recently just got back from China. This country being label as Commi , true Facebook or Gmail none of it is working but at least they don't put me into a X-ray scanner everytime I goes to the airport....
2
As an average citizen who has absolutely nothing to hide, I do not understand the furor generated by this issue. There are lots of bad people who want to harm the citizens of America and if this NSA program can help protect us, I say continue the program. If some safeguards are needed, fine. Put them in there. Just don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Sen. Paul is wrong on this, in my opinion.
5
Don't sacrifice my rights just because you do not want yours!
Just wait until someone with a similar name has something to hide - and they come for you instead because the quality of the "metadata" intelligence is so poor. That might get your attention - and yes, it has happened.
I have reached the age when my children and grandchildren are no longer interested in what I have to say. So I was thrilled to think that someone from the government was listening in. I only wish they would talk back so we could talk about football.
8
What's with naming all these nefarious Acts with pleasant and flattering sounding names?
USA Patriot Act, an act that suspends due process and allows for torture.
USA Freedom Act, an act that implements Orwellian style surveillance.
Will the next Act that suspends Congress and institutes martial law be entitled the Fuzzy Kittens Act?
USA Patriot Act, an act that suspends due process and allows for torture.
USA Freedom Act, an act that implements Orwellian style surveillance.
Will the next Act that suspends Congress and institutes martial law be entitled the Fuzzy Kittens Act?
7
It is galling to hear McCain lambaste Sen. Paul as the worst candidate the GOP could put forward when he and his abysmally poor choice for a running mate are the reason Obama was elected in the first place. Sen. Paul is the only one standing up for true constitutional liberties, regardless of what the "Manchurian candidate" has to say about him.
If you really want to see Americans consent willingly to curtailing their liberty, just wait for the aftermath of any future mass death terrorist attack on this nation.
The nation will convulse.
The demagoguery, xenophobia, hysteria and calls for tighter security and surveillance will make your head spin.
Politicians will milk the moment, fingers will be pointed and those under suspicion will expand. The masses happily, even gratefully consent to their liberties being compromised in the name of safety. I don't doubt this for a second.
Let's have balance in our present struggle to head off crazy people intent on harm. And I'll add the present threat will subside at some point - the world moves on.
For now, some amount of reasonable monitoring of the most fringe elements in an effort to head off a culture-altering attack might just save us from even worse knee-jerk acceptance of limits on our freedom.
Surveillance may infringe on some part of our freedom but allowing a bad attack would be much worse.
The nation will convulse.
The demagoguery, xenophobia, hysteria and calls for tighter security and surveillance will make your head spin.
Politicians will milk the moment, fingers will be pointed and those under suspicion will expand. The masses happily, even gratefully consent to their liberties being compromised in the name of safety. I don't doubt this for a second.
Let's have balance in our present struggle to head off crazy people intent on harm. And I'll add the present threat will subside at some point - the world moves on.
For now, some amount of reasonable monitoring of the most fringe elements in an effort to head off a culture-altering attack might just save us from even worse knee-jerk acceptance of limits on our freedom.
Surveillance may infringe on some part of our freedom but allowing a bad attack would be much worse.
2
I think it's a disgrace that the Democratic Party is not "out in front" on this issue and seriously working on a solution that introduces oversight by civilians of such extraordinary surveillance practices. The so-called "Freedom" Act will result in a dangerous concentration of power in the hands of individuals who might wield the info gathered under it for either personal gain or political agenda. We need to enlist a rotating panel of vetted civilian observers who can confidentially report back to Congress and the courts when they see a problematic violation of the principles of 1) a presumption of innocence for Americans, and 2) a lack of accountability to all Americans, not just an administration, by law enforcement wielding such extraordinary powers.
The position of the administration and many in Congress (including many Republicans) on this legislation is one of cowardice and shows an overarching concern for their political longevity to the detriment of all our civil liberties. They are convinced that the political victor after a terrorist strike will be the one who supported the suppression of civil liberties.That attitude is telling as to most of Congress's conviction that Americans don't give a care about civil liberties.
Will Americans now finally realize that sacrificing their due process is not going to make them any safer?
The position of the administration and many in Congress (including many Republicans) on this legislation is one of cowardice and shows an overarching concern for their political longevity to the detriment of all our civil liberties. They are convinced that the political victor after a terrorist strike will be the one who supported the suppression of civil liberties.That attitude is telling as to most of Congress's conviction that Americans don't give a care about civil liberties.
Will Americans now finally realize that sacrificing their due process is not going to make them any safer?
2
The "Patriot Act" was a misnamed, knee-jerk, cynical and an-American assault on the U.S. Constitution, exactly what Osama bin Laden hoped for. Any and all who approved it should be ashamed of themselves. Hurrah for Rand Paul for standing up for true American principles. And I'm the hardest of hard core liberals. I feel completely betrayed by the Obama Administration on this one.
3
The NSA is a secret agency with a secret program run by a secret court with a secret budget. I don't see how anyone could accuse Rand Paul of running a "campaign of misinformation", when we manage our democracy with no information.
Why don't I believe the NSA has turned off their call logging. Illegal spying and lying to congress seems to be a tradition.
Why don't I believe the NSA has turned off their call logging. Illegal spying and lying to congress seems to be a tradition.
3
As this debate proves, dismantling the national security state is near impossible. The Soviets, Saddam, Al Qaeda, North Korea. Thank God ISIS now poses an existential threat or else there could be cuts in the Defense or CIA budget. Thank God there has always been some country or group for us to deathly fear (whether real, imagined or fabricated).
2
The pace of innovation in cyberspace far exceeds our legislators' abilities to write or re-write laws which provide the legal basis for some intelligence gathering activities. I'm not concerned about letting down the guard from this perspective, and I have faith in the vast majority of our sworn intelligence professionals doing the right thing. I have some experience with them from my 24 years in the military. System's and procedural changes sometimes pre-date the laws that make them legal, when not doing so puts the infrastructure at unacceptable risk. However, I do not have the same confidence in our congress and executive branch, and I'm quickly losing confidence in the judicial as well. Many or most of those clowns need to be tossed out and replaced with people who 1) know a bit of science, and 2) aren't in it for the money and power. Our electorate doesn't get this, however, and takes the spoon-fed ideologies at face value instead of thinking for themselves and doing a bit of research. That's why so many incumbents are re-elected. One comment mentioned "we didn't ask for this cyberwar", which may be true, but we did invent (with physics research) the integrated circuit (1972), and later the internet (DARPA). We dominated the industry during the 70's and 80's in the run-up to the modern internet, which blew everything wide open. Complete privacy has been dead for decades (at least). We now argue over the DEGREE of privacy invasion, not the fact of it.
1
I think the issue here is not so much that data collection is going on. Most people recognize that national security may require some capacity by intelligence agencies to monitor incoming and outgoing telephone and email communication in order to detect threats. Instead, the issue seems to me to be one of accountability. The FISA court is not subject to enough public scrutiny, it may not be applying applicable constitutional law precedent in a particularly consistent manner, and the public is only faintly aware, if at all, of its existence, let alone the identity or qualifications of its judges.
Congress should mandate that the FISA court should have to provide for a reasonable level of "sunshine" operation. Sure, some requests for surveillance have to involve secrecy. But that's not different in concept than situations where prosecutors or police seek warrants in run-of-the-mill criminal cases but need to make the request "in camera." The warrants are available later for public review because they are in the police record or in the court record.
The other issue that I think is not focused on enough is the question of clear limits to the use of surveillance techniques. Congress should not permit limitless surveillance. Instead, there should be a clear requirement, set forth in the statute, of some reasonable basis for individualized suspicion. Probable cause is too much to ask, but there must be a less demanding standard that still provides some privacy protection.
Congress should mandate that the FISA court should have to provide for a reasonable level of "sunshine" operation. Sure, some requests for surveillance have to involve secrecy. But that's not different in concept than situations where prosecutors or police seek warrants in run-of-the-mill criminal cases but need to make the request "in camera." The warrants are available later for public review because they are in the police record or in the court record.
The other issue that I think is not focused on enough is the question of clear limits to the use of surveillance techniques. Congress should not permit limitless surveillance. Instead, there should be a clear requirement, set forth in the statute, of some reasonable basis for individualized suspicion. Probable cause is too much to ask, but there must be a less demanding standard that still provides some privacy protection.
The legislation wouldn't put "limits" on the surveillance state as the Times' headline suggests, but salvage it. Plain English would not describe the resuscitation of an expired law that granted increased powers to the state to be an action that "limited" state power, regardless of the changes made to that expired law.
If a doctor managed to revive a patient who was clinically dead, but thereafter the patient had to live a life confined to a wheelchair, no one would say that the doctor "limited" the patient's mobility. The doctor brought an otherwise dead person back to life! Similarly with what the Senate is considering doing with the expired surveillance program.
Please lose the misleading language, New York Times.
If a doctor managed to revive a patient who was clinically dead, but thereafter the patient had to live a life confined to a wheelchair, no one would say that the doctor "limited" the patient's mobility. The doctor brought an otherwise dead person back to life! Similarly with what the Senate is considering doing with the expired surveillance program.
Please lose the misleading language, New York Times.
5
As a nation we aren't frightened enough any more. If the fear mongers want to scare us into giving up more of our freedoms they're going to have to concoct another 9-11.
12
I am so glad some Republicans have taken a patriotic stand on a topic of substance and importance. I had almost lost hope.
6
Unfortunately, as many have predicted, he will not come within a mile of the Republican nomination due to cannibalism of hawks on the right. Government surveillance may provide an additional layer for intelligence, but how much of personal liberties should we surrender before our illusion of freedom becomes more farcical? This is a tough decision. Mr Rand Paul, if anything, has shown a lot of courage sticking to core libertarian principle.
4
If you watched a recent episode of PBS Frontline called "American Terrorist", you know all our intelligence agencies are pretty much useless, sucking 100s of billions with no real result.
6
The majority leader "miscalculated" again? So has the Speaker, more than once. Is this party ready to govern?
2
Occupy, I love your name, but I would suggest that 'Occupy the Empire' is more accurate than 'Occupy Government' since this Disguised Global (crony) Capitalist Empire only 'posing' as, and HQed in, our former country is the source of all our 'symptom problems' in our entire "ailing social order".
As Zygmunt Bauman hauntingly puts it, “In the case of an ailing social order, the absence of an adequate diagnosis…is a crucial, perhaps decisive, part of the disease.”13
Berman, Morris 2011 "Dark Ages America; the Final Phase of Empire"
Empire is the Cancer of all Maladies in our body politic
As Zygmunt Bauman hauntingly puts it, “In the case of an ailing social order, the absence of an adequate diagnosis…is a crucial, perhaps decisive, part of the disease.”13
Berman, Morris 2011 "Dark Ages America; the Final Phase of Empire"
Empire is the Cancer of all Maladies in our body politic
Rand Paul is an American Hero - standing for reason and freedom and not the perpetuated fear mongering that persists. Reminds me of a famous quote "Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself". McConnell and the Republicans want Big Brother NSA to continue forever and play the fear card to the American people. Thank You Edward Snowden, Thank You Rand Paul, sometimes it takes brave individuals of principal to stand for what is a normal and basic human right - the right to privacy.
12
Too much money at risk for our government to end any part of the illegal 24/7/375 all-encompassing surveillance.
The corporate / government alliance is all about control of every aspect of our lives.
Nothing, short of the removal of the leaders and lackeys in this unholy alliance, will restore our rights guaranteed in accordance with the terms of our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.
The corporate / government alliance is all about control of every aspect of our lives.
Nothing, short of the removal of the leaders and lackeys in this unholy alliance, will restore our rights guaranteed in accordance with the terms of our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.
Why is it you never hear of the senate staying late to debate or vote on issues that so many American people are passionate about ie. climate change, healthcare, poverty, iRS corruption? Instead, when a bill giving the government copious amounts of unchecked power is at risk of lapsing the senate decides to work with the utmost diligence. Thank you Sen. Rand Paul for standing up for the freedom and privacy of the American people.
6
I think Rand Paul would be a terrible President, but on this issue, we are in full agreement. The Patriot Act is un-American and wrong. It should have never been passed.
Thank you Senator Paul.
Thank you Senator Paul.
7
Defund the NSA.
They are not working for the American people.
They are not working for the American people.
7
I voted for Obama, twice. I was planning to vote for whoever the Democrats run in 2016. But Rand Paul, if he runs, has my vote. He spoke truth to power over this last week. The Republican Hawks, like John McCain, Lindsey Graham and the the Bush bunch, not only created the void that allowed ISIS and other terrorist groups to flourish, but also they have armed them as well. Mr. Paul, rightly said that we have over-reacted to the terrorist threat. After 9/11, we gave Al Qaeda a victory far greater than they anticipated with the adoption of the Patriot Act. And we are less safe for it. Color-coded terror alerts and duct tape for our windows made us behave like sheep. As it was intended to do. Just look at us at the airport, standing in line like Russians at a bakery and removing our shoes for God's sake! Doesn't that embarrass anyone else? It's a reminder, more than any other, that we lost our way of life after 9/11. Rand Paul is the only person in Washington to recognize this. Voting for anyone else will be business as usual.
8
There are pros and CNN of the Patriot Act, like many other legislation. That the elected congress-members cannot figure out how to sit and craft a compromise when our personal safety is involved is due to the immature influence of Libertarians and tea partners who would be happy to destroy the social contract. Scary times and I sometimes think these immature cry babies are as bad as those who want to do us in.
The NSA stopped collecting the affected data at 12:01 a.m. Monday. Would this short lapse make the world insecure? Hardly! There's still snooping conducted behind this frenzy in the Congress! The US will never wean itself off its habits.
The "Patriot Act" will be replaced by the White-House backed "Freedom Act", which is just old wine in a new bottle!
The "Patriot Act" will be replaced by the White-House backed "Freedom Act", which is just old wine in a new bottle!
5
The Congress stole our vital freedoms with the 2001 "Patriot Act" and now they want us to believe they are giving us freedom with the "Freedom Act" after they were exposed by Snowden. Indeed, it's all an "Act".
9
Senators did the right thing, great day for America, democracy and fundamental rights.
1
This vote is such a joke. Let's see NSA broke the law and continues to do so, they set people up to bust here in the USA but can't come up with one person busted outside the US with this system. Do you really still believe??? . They're not going to stop, this is about control, power and greed. Some of you need to wake up.
5
So what I see is that every turn, Democrats are forcing the issue and trying to do backroom deals to get the spying program reinstated. It looks like they need this program for something, wonder what that is? Could it be that they use the NSA program to spy on political opponents? Could it be that they would be at a loss if they didn't have that tool and hand to defeat the opposition by knowing what they're talking about, what they're saying, what they're thinking, where they are, what they're doing? Oh I understand, this has nothing to do with spying, terrorism, or anything other than politics. We don't need the NSA, we don't need spies spying on us, and we don't need to live in 1984.
2
Simon Black very recently stated the following:
"Unfortunately most people in the West are caged birds. It might be a nice cage with plenty of Starbucks and Bed, Bath, and Beyond megastores. But it’s a cage… filled with clueless birds chirping away about how free they are."
It's quite sad to read so many of these comments, where people still believe our government has only a pure, noble interest in keeping us safe and "free". It only proves how effective and complete the propaganda machine is at convincing us that "they hate us for our freedoms", and we must kill them before they kill us. We are so afraid of the boogie-man terrorists, that we fail to see who the real terrorists are - those in power, who want to remain power, and will continue to expand their power and control over us at any cost.
From our hero and patriot Edward Snowden: "Arguing that you don’t care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don’t care about free speech because you have nothing to say."
"Unfortunately most people in the West are caged birds. It might be a nice cage with plenty of Starbucks and Bed, Bath, and Beyond megastores. But it’s a cage… filled with clueless birds chirping away about how free they are."
It's quite sad to read so many of these comments, where people still believe our government has only a pure, noble interest in keeping us safe and "free". It only proves how effective and complete the propaganda machine is at convincing us that "they hate us for our freedoms", and we must kill them before they kill us. We are so afraid of the boogie-man terrorists, that we fail to see who the real terrorists are - those in power, who want to remain power, and will continue to expand their power and control over us at any cost.
From our hero and patriot Edward Snowden: "Arguing that you don’t care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don’t care about free speech because you have nothing to say."
11
Well said.
Mitch and Rand: Now will you keep your 'surveillance' out of our bedrooms, women's right to choose, and relationship choices? Thanks!
3
Do FBI and NSA agents act with human curiosity when they wiretap or place under surveillance suspects without a court warrant in order to obtain information to obtain one? As local police often do? Often the surveillance information leads nowhere, merely "filed." But government invasion of privacy has occurred, a violation of our 4th Amendment protection from unlawful search and seizure. Anyone who doubts this occurs ought to read the 2nd District Court ruling and comments from the bench in the case of the Drimals last month suing 16 FBI agents accused of violating the so-called "2-minute" listening rule in surveillance. https://ecf.ctd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public.doc?2012cv0717-31 The Judges agreed that the FBI agents acted unprofessionally in jokes disseminated among the bureau about the Drimal intimate marital conversations.
1
Finally – some pushback, after all the fear-mongering of the last 14 years (What color is the "threat level", Kenneth?"
How about this: let's starve the military-industrial-surveillance complex back to a healthy size. And let's spend the savings on projects which actually help Americans, not on these drama queen "terrorism experts".
How about this: let's starve the military-industrial-surveillance complex back to a healthy size. And let's spend the savings on projects which actually help Americans, not on these drama queen "terrorism experts".
10
Perish the thought ...
Deny the Haliburtons of our world their right to subjugate us !!!
It will likely never occur.
All an act, every last scene.
Deny the Haliburtons of our world their right to subjugate us !!!
It will likely never occur.
All an act, every last scene.
It's about time. Now bring Snowden home and give him the Freedom Medal. This is America, not North Korea.
7
Let it expire. And while your at it repeal the patriot Act and terminate Homeland Security.
7
I'd say a good part of the problem in getting somewhere with this act is the way the Senate manages to gum up anything it does with procedural votes and cloture rules and on and on. Time to reorganize that body along the lines of getting things done.
Who, exactly, has been harmed by the surveillance?
1
Liberty.
9
Hmmm....America suddenly feels better against my skin! We're tired of war, we're tired of spy vs spy, the government knows what color of underwear I'm currently wearing. Our enemies still hate us & there are days I understand why.
9-11 is almost 14 years ago, never forget but it's way past time we move on. The way to peace isn't war, isn't harsh treatment, isn't Gitmo, isn't putting US troops in every nook & cranny around the world.
Bring our troops home, spend the war money on infrastructure, do some nation building IN the USA. We can go back to the carefree days of Lassie pulling Timmy out of the well.
We need to tamp down religion, politicians, put truth into Free Trade, make NAFTA a good deal for someone other than the Oligarchs. Retire the old dinosaurs out of Congress. Build a fence around Sen. Tom Cotton, Sen. Ted Cruz & a host of others who ruin the quality of life around the planet while stuffing more cash in their pockets while only serving the 1%.
Take a breath & DO BETTER! I'm sick of Amerika & long for America. The words Patriot Act & Homeland Security should be relegated to history. This is China's century & we can't do a thing about it...we aren't Number 1 anymore & good! We better learn to be a great Number 2 & be exceptionally good at liking it!.
9-11 is almost 14 years ago, never forget but it's way past time we move on. The way to peace isn't war, isn't harsh treatment, isn't Gitmo, isn't putting US troops in every nook & cranny around the world.
Bring our troops home, spend the war money on infrastructure, do some nation building IN the USA. We can go back to the carefree days of Lassie pulling Timmy out of the well.
We need to tamp down religion, politicians, put truth into Free Trade, make NAFTA a good deal for someone other than the Oligarchs. Retire the old dinosaurs out of Congress. Build a fence around Sen. Tom Cotton, Sen. Ted Cruz & a host of others who ruin the quality of life around the planet while stuffing more cash in their pockets while only serving the 1%.
Take a breath & DO BETTER! I'm sick of Amerika & long for America. The words Patriot Act & Homeland Security should be relegated to history. This is China's century & we can't do a thing about it...we aren't Number 1 anymore & good! We better learn to be a great Number 2 & be exceptionally good at liking it!.
"never forget but it's way past time we move on." Never move on from a false flag until it's identified.
Better that Rand Paul raise campaign funds for himself, as some Senators have accused him of doing, than many of these same Senators - who mostly vote to shove money to the defense contractors to wage wars all over the world in the name of protecting OUR Freedom, while spreading chaos in other parts of the world which would call for MORE spending of US TAXPAYER money to bring us even more "freedom".
1
Rand Paul for prez 2016 !
And give Snowden a welcome back ticker tape parade on B'way ! The guy deserves it.
And give Snowden a welcome back ticker tape parade on B'way ! The guy deserves it.
1
Even without compromising the national security, ways could be found to rework the Patriot Act while also making the state surveillance less intrusive, provided national security issue is depoliticised and viewed genuinely a national concern.
"He asked senators to consider a two-week continuation of the federal authority to track a “lone wolf” terrorism suspect not connected to a state sponsor and to conduct “roving” surveillance of a suspect, rather than of a phone number alone, to combat terrorists who frequently discard cellphones."
Does anyone really believe that if the NSA or FBI had actual knowledge of a "terrorism suspect" that they could not get a warrant to follow the "terrorism suspect" even if they discard cellphones? Of course not. What the NSA is asking for is carte blanch authority to gather ALL of the records of ALL people in the vicinity of a suspect for whom they have no probable cause to get a warrant. That means they want to go through phone records and recordings of totally bystanders (Americans) so the feds can use their ham-handed techniques to figure out if the supposed suspect is doing anything wrong. This is akin to stopping and searching all of our cars to determine whether the bank down the street was just robbed.
Does anyone really believe that if the NSA or FBI had actual knowledge of a "terrorism suspect" that they could not get a warrant to follow the "terrorism suspect" even if they discard cellphones? Of course not. What the NSA is asking for is carte blanch authority to gather ALL of the records of ALL people in the vicinity of a suspect for whom they have no probable cause to get a warrant. That means they want to go through phone records and recordings of totally bystanders (Americans) so the feds can use their ham-handed techniques to figure out if the supposed suspect is doing anything wrong. This is akin to stopping and searching all of our cars to determine whether the bank down the street was just robbed.
1
If anyone seriously believes the intel community is going to suddenly stop eavesdropping on us... you may also believe in the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, and my all time fave the troll living under the bridge...
1
It's amazing to me how many "citizens" are truly not appalled by this governmental snooping without warrant (pun intended). I guess it's illustrative of how weak we have become when it comes to our personal freedoms. I remember polls taken right after 9/11 asking if people would be willing to give up some civil rights for more safety. Well, I don't think we will get either. STOP the NSA!
2
Spying on Americans has nothing to do with Islamic militant attacks.
Look back at who were in the FBI's cross hairs when "communism" was corporate America's faux bete noir: civil rights activists, anti-war activists, labor activists -- anti-establishment thorns in the side of the American ruling class.
Fast forward to today. Who do multinational corporations' lackeys in Washington want to keep tabs on, to "defeat, and disrupt?" Anti-globalization activists, environmentalists, Occupy activists -- dissidents of all stripes supposedly protected by the 1st and 4th Amendments.
The so-called "Patriot" Act has one and only one objective: criminalize dissent. Where were Washington's spies when the Tsarnaev brothers plotted to bomb Boston? How many mass shootings have the spies prevented?
That anybody even discusses these patently authoritarian programs with a straight face amazes me. Clapper lies to Congress and goes scot free, Patraeus gives his lover state secrets and gets a slap on the wrist. But Chelsea Manning goes to jail for 35 years, Ed Snowden is holed up in Russia, Julian Assange is holed up in the Ecuadoran embassy in London.
What has the USA become? The USSR?
Look back at who were in the FBI's cross hairs when "communism" was corporate America's faux bete noir: civil rights activists, anti-war activists, labor activists -- anti-establishment thorns in the side of the American ruling class.
Fast forward to today. Who do multinational corporations' lackeys in Washington want to keep tabs on, to "defeat, and disrupt?" Anti-globalization activists, environmentalists, Occupy activists -- dissidents of all stripes supposedly protected by the 1st and 4th Amendments.
The so-called "Patriot" Act has one and only one objective: criminalize dissent. Where were Washington's spies when the Tsarnaev brothers plotted to bomb Boston? How many mass shootings have the spies prevented?
That anybody even discusses these patently authoritarian programs with a straight face amazes me. Clapper lies to Congress and goes scot free, Patraeus gives his lover state secrets and gets a slap on the wrist. But Chelsea Manning goes to jail for 35 years, Ed Snowden is holed up in Russia, Julian Assange is holed up in the Ecuadoran embassy in London.
What has the USA become? The USSR?
24
Bill Appledorf:
Spying on Americans has nothing to do with Islamic militant attacks.
****
This is simply not true. Of course it does. It is precisely this kind of talk that has made this into a political crusade versus a rational discussion about overseeing a data collection process with tremendous privacy implications.
Do you really believe they're going to catch the bad guys without looking at the broad swaths of data? The world is moving toward "big data", but those in our government responsible for national security should revert to "little data"? To which decade or century would you like to return?
Your wrath should be directed at our elected officials who have failed to keep pace and create the proper oversight, the need for which didn't even exist a few years ago, not the people trying to do the analysis.
Spying on Americans has nothing to do with Islamic militant attacks.
****
This is simply not true. Of course it does. It is precisely this kind of talk that has made this into a political crusade versus a rational discussion about overseeing a data collection process with tremendous privacy implications.
Do you really believe they're going to catch the bad guys without looking at the broad swaths of data? The world is moving toward "big data", but those in our government responsible for national security should revert to "little data"? To which decade or century would you like to return?
Your wrath should be directed at our elected officials who have failed to keep pace and create the proper oversight, the need for which didn't even exist a few years ago, not the people trying to do the analysis.
3
Dear AACNY - there's a "bad guy" who lives in my town. How much should my community spend to catch him? Would it be OK to conduct a warrantless house to house search of every home in the community to catch him? Yes we need to catch bad guys, but that's not an excuse to throw the constitution out the window, nor to write a blank check to spend an unlimited amount.
Saying the purpose of the Patriot Act is not based on any factual evidence but an inherent bias on your part,. Where is your evidence that the government is targeting these specific groups? What independent investigative bodies do you have that can substantiate your claims? If you're going to put it out there then back it up and you fail to do this.
And can you factually prove that the Patriot Act has not prevented any attacks? Again, where's you proof
You repeatedly make baseless accusations that have no basis in fact whatsoever. That is wreck less and irresponsible. You sound like a conspiracy theorist
And can you factually prove that the Patriot Act has not prevented any attacks? Again, where's you proof
You repeatedly make baseless accusations that have no basis in fact whatsoever. That is wreck less and irresponsible. You sound like a conspiracy theorist
The security services lost the American people when it became painfully obvious that with all the billions spent and privacy lost they have never caught one terrorist through the use of these extraordinary powers. If congress eventually passes a new law why don't we be honest about it and call it the Boondoggle Act?
14
The only one capable of analyzing big data and coming up with accurate conclusions at this point is IBM's "Watson".
1
Stop spying on me and other Americans who like me can teach what honesty means! You Congressmen and Congresswomen, who sell yourselves to the highest bidder, are the criminals.
19
Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders are among the rare representatives looking out for the people instead of themselves.
Thank you to both of them!
Thank you to both of them!
1
After 30 years in the private sector I now work in state government. It has been shocking to see how the left hand won't speak to the right. I am not at all surprised that the FBI and the CIA did not collaborate to prevent 9/11. The answer? Create another bureaucracy (um, agency) - Homeland Security.
Sweeping our telecommunications data is the height of laziness. We can be much smarter and much more efficient.
Sweeping our telecommunications data is the height of laziness. We can be much smarter and much more efficient.
15
In this debate, Senator Paul has been on the side of the Founding Fathers when they were at their best, limiting Federal power in the interest of our experiment in self-governance.
His stand may also turn out to be as politically significant as then Senator Obama's original opposition to the Iraq War.
His stand may also turn out to be as politically significant as then Senator Obama's original opposition to the Iraq War.
21
I would much rather government entities keep data about my telephone calls than the telephone companies themselves.
4
ATT and Verizon cannot arrest, indict and imprison you. The most they they can do is follow you around as you talk and type and try to sell you "interesting" things.
1
Why is it that Hillary can keep her personal e-mails private, but I can't?
And why should the government keep data about your telephone calls in the first place, Sue? Are you in the process of committing any crime? Should a warrant be issued to search your private premises? Or are you under the impression that we derive our rights from the consent of the government?
He's using it to grandstand politically, but for once I do agree with Mr. Paul. Let's be careful not to overinterpret, because government does have a role and his wanton budget cuts (to the EPA, NASA, and so forth) will not have the beneficial effect of curtailing government intrusion.
6
In the future, all or any of this captured data can and possibly will be used against us all in ways that we don't even know of yet.
Who will be our leaders 25 to 50 years from now? We don't know do we.
Europeans already know this, (especially Germany) and don't permit all of this collection of private information. They've been down that road already.
Most Americans are blissfully ignorant, just the malleable way they want us.
Nothing to see here folks, move along. This midnight voting charade is nothing but a dog and pony show. Soon all of the senators will be on summer break and it will be business as usual.
Who will be our leaders 25 to 50 years from now? We don't know do we.
Europeans already know this, (especially Germany) and don't permit all of this collection of private information. They've been down that road already.
Most Americans are blissfully ignorant, just the malleable way they want us.
Nothing to see here folks, move along. This midnight voting charade is nothing but a dog and pony show. Soon all of the senators will be on summer break and it will be business as usual.
18
While the public may dislike government encroachment, with Patriot they fear less terrorism. The present administration to its credit has used the patriot powers well in some important ways to make us safer, their execution has been excellent IMO. Now and not surprisingly some republicans want to get rid of it. Rand Paul--he is unelectable---is a side show intended to distract from real GOP goals. So, while making it appear that republicans are being responsive to widespread objections to government surveillance, more thoughtful about personal freedoms, they are working to create what in their view may be a more sustainable political environment for themselves (read more public fear, fewer protections) and in the end probably making the world less safe. Talk about flip-flops.
2
You managed to turn unconstitutional domestic spying on its head, and reverse the role of fear in motivation. You may not flip flop, but your view is certainly polarized 180 degrees from the purpose of our Bill of Rights.
I wasn't aware of any things that came to light to make us safer due to The Patriot Act. Could you please enlightne me so I can change my opionon and support it?
Shifting the bulk collection of data from the government to the phone companies does nothing to safeguard our privacy or civil liberties. It is just a pretend fix, a PR job. It continues the telecommunications companies' collusion with government spying, which was going on illegally during the Bush administration, and which was retroactively legalized with the support of then Senator Obama. Under this so-called "Freedom Act," officials will be able to dip into the phone companies' trove of information whenever they want, trumping up whatever pretext to investigate dissenters or protestors.
Government spying on dissenters, socialists, union organizers, civil rights activists, etc., has been going on since the early days of J. Edgar Hoover. The only change has been an improvement in technology.
Government spying on dissenters, socialists, union organizers, civil rights activists, etc., has been going on since the early days of J. Edgar Hoover. The only change has been an improvement in technology.
8
Thanks for the reminder that Rand Paul is running for POTUS.
4
If Mitch would check the data the NSA has trawled, he'd see that quite
a few of his constituents have the WORK on Sundays and for them it isn't
rare. It's common. They work nights, too. Surveil that!
a few of his constituents have the WORK on Sundays and for them it isn't
rare. It's common. They work nights, too. Surveil that!
4
When Rand suggests that Hawks caused the rise of ISIS, he's not far off the truth. It was the Hawks to talked Bush into pulling the cork out of the bottle. Once Saddam was gone, the whole thing fell apart.
14
All this spying on people around the world did not prevent the Boston Marathon bombing. It did not stop the anthrax attacks shortly after 9/11, or the Times Square attack in NYC.
If you actually look at the supposed successes, they are all against people the US set up, primarily young, alienated loners who would have done nothing if they hadn't be helped and funded by the FBI.
If you actually look at the supposed successes, they are all against people the US set up, primarily young, alienated loners who would have done nothing if they hadn't be helped and funded by the FBI.
14
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety” - Benjamin Franklin
16
If this is so important, then both parties should agree to just repeal the fourth amendment.
If we respect the wisdom of the founders, they REALLY wanted to protect their citizens from unreasonable search by government. The so-called "Patriot" acts stand this principle on its head. Everyone is always a suspect and can be (rather IS) always searched.
If you have nothing to hide... and think the government will always act within the law... https://reframes.wordpress.com/2014/11/03/fbi-fourthamendment-oh-that/ or watch the PBS Independent Lens program on the Media Pa break-in that exposed FBI projects to intimidate any American who questioned the government about the Vietnam war. http://video.pbs.org/video/2365475451/
If we respect the wisdom of the founders, they REALLY wanted to protect their citizens from unreasonable search by government. The so-called "Patriot" acts stand this principle on its head. Everyone is always a suspect and can be (rather IS) always searched.
If you have nothing to hide... and think the government will always act within the law... https://reframes.wordpress.com/2014/11/03/fbi-fourthamendment-oh-that/ or watch the PBS Independent Lens program on the Media Pa break-in that exposed FBI projects to intimidate any American who questioned the government about the Vietnam war. http://video.pbs.org/video/2365475451/
13
Just think, if the Senate had been coming in for work each day, 5 days a week, Monday thru Friday, like the majority of Americans do for their jobs, then they wouldn't be working Sunday, would they? If nothing else, one would think a piece of legislation about a NATIONAL SURVEILLANCE PROGRAM would have deemed that sort of time and focus? But no, lets scramble at the 11th hour to, once again, put half-worked-out legislation into place for the very Americans that voted these politicians into Public Service. Deeply disappointing.
16
Blame that on Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. He is the one who plans the Senate Calendar.
Remember the Animal House movie? "They're now on DOUBLE SECRET probation!"
The thing I worry about most in these situations is what we've seen time and again: "Yes, the law said we had to stop that program, but we ALSO had a DOUBLE SECRET program that we kept going, doing the exact same thing, but it was so vital to the national security that we couldn't tell the Congress or the American people. But don't worry -- we had a secret panel -- we can't give you the names of course -- that reviewed what we were doing and they said it was OK." Ugh.
The thing I worry about most in these situations is what we've seen time and again: "Yes, the law said we had to stop that program, but we ALSO had a DOUBLE SECRET program that we kept going, doing the exact same thing, but it was so vital to the national security that we couldn't tell the Congress or the American people. But don't worry -- we had a secret panel -- we can't give you the names of course -- that reviewed what we were doing and they said it was OK." Ugh.
10
So the patriot act's abuses save lives? This is repeated several times in the piece by important government officials.
Unmentioned FACT: No where has it been proven or determined that the phone records in question were the deciding factor in an investigation.
Unmentioned FACT: No where has it been proven or determined that the phone records in question were the deciding factor in an investigation.
7
Op-ed in today's Los Angeles Times is a warning about official state spying on citizens from former Chilean journalist Ariel Dorfman who, in the 1970's, had supported President Salvador Allende and was imprisoned by the opposition military junta for his views. Many other Chilean Allende democrats were imprisoned, tortured, murdered and "disappeared." Dorfman now lives in the United States and deplores, in the strongest terms, the NSA intrusion into Americans privacy that has bloomed since he moved here years ago.
9
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
What part of this do they not understand?
What part of this do they not understand?
9
Really? A Sunday session on NSA spying on American citizens? How about giving the same priority to global warming or to poor kids getting left out of the American dream, or the increasing divide between rich and poor, or the undue influence of large corporations on our democracy. Our government is screwing around with rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and all the while the ship is sinking.
10
"Our government is screwing around with rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and all the while the ship is sinking."
Great writing Mr. Jack McHenry!! (of Charlotte,NC)
Great writing Mr. Jack McHenry!! (of Charlotte,NC)
3
Too many police, too many heroes, rendering, torturing, the invasion of Iraq and all the fun that ensued and imbued. Too many contractors making money and too many politicians taking it. I long for yesterday.
8
It is such an intrusion. The notion that our government deserves our phone records without any reasonably articulated and individualized suspicion is a joke. Perhaps McConnell wants to live in Soviet Russia. I don't. I want control. I want police and detectives and special agents to do their job. But I don't want some NSA staffer mining our phone records. That isn't their job.
9
Fear mongering by the politicians finally loses. It's about time. I can't say that there is anything in politics that is worse than giving our own government so much power that it can be turned on anyone at any time. ...and it is and will be further.
Look at the media, and the abuses used by our government against reporters who had unpopular stories about our current administration. Or didn't you hear about that? Or did you just sweep it under the carpet?
There has also been no known terrorist plot uncovered by such a program to date. Ever. Admitted by the FBI.
Warrants for private information still exists. They exist for a reason.
The downfall of any civilization in history can often be traced by its leaders having far too much power against its own citizens. We were (and are) on that track, and it's time to stop.
Terrorism against us is inevitable. Spying on our own people hasn't stopped anything yet. Our once great country is only weakened by the control we give to our government.
Look at the media, and the abuses used by our government against reporters who had unpopular stories about our current administration. Or didn't you hear about that? Or did you just sweep it under the carpet?
There has also been no known terrorist plot uncovered by such a program to date. Ever. Admitted by the FBI.
Warrants for private information still exists. They exist for a reason.
The downfall of any civilization in history can often be traced by its leaders having far too much power against its own citizens. We were (and are) on that track, and it's time to stop.
Terrorism against us is inevitable. Spying on our own people hasn't stopped anything yet. Our once great country is only weakened by the control we give to our government.
12
"The Senate action pointed toward a compromise that would maintain aspects of the bulk collection of telephone records, transferring custody to phone companies rather than the government."
Really? Since we do we trust the private sector with personal information? We are talking about the 'Phone Company(s)' after all - once a government sanctioned monopoly and now a thorn in the side of the public interest.
Really? Since we do we trust the private sector with personal information? We are talking about the 'Phone Company(s)' after all - once a government sanctioned monopoly and now a thorn in the side of the public interest.
6
The US govt has become a racist hypocrytical bully. They hate Arabs, but sleep with Saudies. Question authority.
Rich
DHS
Rich
DHS
One of the main things to remember about the wholesale abdication of the 4th Amendment and the rise of the Security State is that all these laws and powers have not deterred a single terrorist incident. Even the most rabid defenders of the law can only point to one "success" where a cab driver was convicted of sending a few thousand dollars to a Somalia group.
Meanwhile, FBI law enforcement ignored calls from flight schools that Saudis were taking flight lessons but didn't care about taking off or landing a plane.
No one sought to investigate the Boston Bomber despite training in Chechnya. No one sought to investigate the Fort Hood killer despite his face book posts.
Every terrorist attack to date has been a failure of law enforcement to heed ample warnings.
The Patriot Act is the result of hysteria and spineless politicians, it accomplishes nothing except to provide the infrastructure for a future Big Brother.
While I disagree with Senator Paul on just about every other issue, I thank God for him on this one.
America is in big trouble when out of 485 legislators only one is willing to stand up for the 'freedom' they all pay lip service to.
Meanwhile, FBI law enforcement ignored calls from flight schools that Saudis were taking flight lessons but didn't care about taking off or landing a plane.
No one sought to investigate the Boston Bomber despite training in Chechnya. No one sought to investigate the Fort Hood killer despite his face book posts.
Every terrorist attack to date has been a failure of law enforcement to heed ample warnings.
The Patriot Act is the result of hysteria and spineless politicians, it accomplishes nothing except to provide the infrastructure for a future Big Brother.
While I disagree with Senator Paul on just about every other issue, I thank God for him on this one.
America is in big trouble when out of 485 legislators only one is willing to stand up for the 'freedom' they all pay lip service to.
34
Sadly the debate is all an act; both political parties are owned and controlled by the same corporate special interests who want the spying, and especially the industrial spying on the World to continue. In short order some "resolution" will appear out of thin air.
10
But, you keep electing the same people who never listen to the American people. So, in honesty, it is YOUR fault for electing these same politicians who have no desire to get rid of lobbyists or Citizens United. In fact, every Republican in congress has signed a pledge to Grover Norquist that they will not vote to raise taxes or even remove subsidies given to the wealthy. Heck, I thought they should have a pledge to their constituents to raise taxes if needed and cut taxes when needed - that is called "governing" and Ronald Reagan did that many times. Instead, you have Grover Norquist leading the republicans.
What is 'meta-data collection' difference
to phone company's currently preserving records of my incoming and outgoing calls?
to phone company's currently preserving records of my incoming and outgoing calls?
3
The phone company lacks the vast power of government. It cant issue an arrest warrant, it cant take away your civil rights, it cant make u disappear, assasinate u or put u in Guantanamo because of some trumped up charge against which u cannot have a jury of your peers, etc etc
The difference is that with the phone company holding them the government needs a warrant to get at it. You throw your landline records, in with mobile phone/gps records, email records, etc...and you give the government a way to reconstruct your life. If they are forced to get a warrant based on probable cause of terrorism its great, but when they had unfettered access the concern is that they could start using it for blackmail (similar to the way Hoover's FBI used their access to phone taps and other records).
NSA contracts are billions of dollars that are spent on contracts and some of it is recycled back to the politicians on the hill. With tons of money involved this will get passed one way or the other. No doubt NSA had no clue on the Boston bombing nor of the millions of American citizen data and credit card information stolen from Target, Home Depot and many others. It is time to say no more spying on American citizens. Finally, when will the media put out a poll showing 0 support for continued spying on Americans? Why is the media complicit with the politicians on this one? I have no clue. This is on topic where Americans both liberal and conservative stand together and say no more spying. No more Kangaroo court that runs like Saddam Hussein's court with no lawyer for citizens and all judgements are secret. What a shame that our country is now become like Turkey or Iraq. The supreme court has kept silent.
21
First, we were duped into a false sense of security by the biggest protection racket in history when the Congress wrote and passed the Unpatriotic Patriot act.
Now we are being duped by the "Freedom Act". So what's in a name? Pure deception by the protection racket.
Now we are being duped by the "Freedom Act". So what's in a name? Pure deception by the protection racket.
14
Even after the Republican promise "to govern" after gaining control of both houses of Congress (an admission that they had not been governing for years, really), Republicans continue to force America to lurch from one crisis to the next. The current impasse is entirely of their own making. My conclusion, recalling their historically disastrous turn in the White House in 2001-2008, is that Republicans are wholly unable to govern no matter what the electorate give them a shot at.
10
Sen. McConnell, whose only reported ambition was to lead the Senate, has shown what a failure he is at leading the Senate. But his true ambition is to delivery for those who own him, and not the taxpayers who fund his salary. He truly is, beneath contempt.
18
I am opposed to the mass surveillance programs, but I'm puzzled by the fuss about the "roving survellance" provision (seems perfectly sensible, getting warrants for each number a suspect might use is just more red tape) and the lone wolf provision (don't we care about lone wolves?).
More importantly, I'm disappointed that the phone records program is considered the most invasive, when in fact it is probably the least concerning of the NSA's domestic surveillance programs. Much more concerning is the dragnet internet collection, which stores contains not just metadata but actual content. The phone records are an okay start, but just scratching the surface of the reforms needed.
More importantly, I'm disappointed that the phone records program is considered the most invasive, when in fact it is probably the least concerning of the NSA's domestic surveillance programs. Much more concerning is the dragnet internet collection, which stores contains not just metadata but actual content. The phone records are an okay start, but just scratching the surface of the reforms needed.
65
While I appreciate Rand Paul's position on freedom and privacy, I think the real problem is that technology has surpassed (actually leapfrogged) our ability to balance national security and privacy.
Data capture has taken off like a rocket. Big data factors into everything we do today. Every field using big data is just beginning its struggle with privacy (or should be). It's no different for national security.
Data collection should not be shut down. Privacy protections need to catch up.
Data capture has taken off like a rocket. Big data factors into everything we do today. Every field using big data is just beginning its struggle with privacy (or should be). It's no different for national security.
Data collection should not be shut down. Privacy protections need to catch up.
3
The politicians who are responsible for wasting billions of taxpayer dollars on practically useless and unconstitutional domestic surveillance should be held accountable. The money could be used much more productively to ensure the security of our country.
15
It is like the old saying from Benjamin Franklin " If you give up your freedoms for the sense of security you deserve neither one ". Obama is just another Bush in my eyes.
18
77 Senators voting for this thing at this point?
Next election, they should all go... Democrat and Republican... Every one...
Next election, they should all go... Democrat and Republican... Every one...
13
What good is Freedom if it is a lie? Billions spent that NEVER stopped a single Terrorist and instead of looking out, the CIA is looking in! This spy program is illegal and threatens extortion to private industry to "hack" Private networks. We put people in jail for what the NSA is doing to the American Citizens.
The real truth is this; there is no Security- how many incidents have happened and how many were stopped because of the NSA? ZERO
You are better off concealed carrying than putting blind faith in a program that spends Billions+ of your tax money with no security only 20/20 hindsight. The American People deserve Freedom and without it or Civil Liberties, the Terrorists have won. They forced the USA to become Russia and China! NO- security comes within the people and the Govt is there to Serve them, not spy on them. What is next? Showing up at your house with no Warrant for arrest? No rights read? If you don't stop this program right now, that is where it is headed in the next 10 years- no end to what they can and will do- a Police State.
The real truth is this; there is no Security- how many incidents have happened and how many were stopped because of the NSA? ZERO
You are better off concealed carrying than putting blind faith in a program that spends Billions+ of your tax money with no security only 20/20 hindsight. The American People deserve Freedom and without it or Civil Liberties, the Terrorists have won. They forced the USA to become Russia and China! NO- security comes within the people and the Govt is there to Serve them, not spy on them. What is next? Showing up at your house with no Warrant for arrest? No rights read? If you don't stop this program right now, that is where it is headed in the next 10 years- no end to what they can and will do- a Police State.
18
Keeping us safe is a pretext. The aim of the massive security state is to have control over the people. And it’s in the interest of private industry to maintain bloated surveillance programs when 70 percent of the intelligence budget is outsourced.
NSA Whistleblower Thomas Drake: Snowden Saw What I Saw: Surveillance Criminally Subverting the Constitution
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/12/snowden-surveillanc...
“This executive fiat of 2001 violated not just the fourth amendment, but also Fisa rules at the time, which made it a felony – carrying a penalty of $10,000 and five years in prison for each and every instance. The supposed oversight, combined with enabling legislation – the Fisa court, the congressional committees – is all a KABUKI DANCE, predicated on the national security claim that we need to ‘find a threat.’
“The reality is, they just want it all, period.
“To an NSA with these unwarranted powers, we're all potentially guilty; we're all potential suspects until we prove otherwise. That is what happens when the government has all the data.
“The NSA is wiring the world; they want to own internet. I didn't want to be part of the dark blanket that covers the world, and Edward Snowden didn't either.
“What Edward Snowden has done is an amazingly brave and courageous act of civil disobedience.”
NSA Whistleblower Thomas Drake: Snowden Saw What I Saw: Surveillance Criminally Subverting the Constitution
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/12/snowden-surveillanc...
“This executive fiat of 2001 violated not just the fourth amendment, but also Fisa rules at the time, which made it a felony – carrying a penalty of $10,000 and five years in prison for each and every instance. The supposed oversight, combined with enabling legislation – the Fisa court, the congressional committees – is all a KABUKI DANCE, predicated on the national security claim that we need to ‘find a threat.’
“The reality is, they just want it all, period.
“To an NSA with these unwarranted powers, we're all potentially guilty; we're all potential suspects until we prove otherwise. That is what happens when the government has all the data.
“The NSA is wiring the world; they want to own internet. I didn't want to be part of the dark blanket that covers the world, and Edward Snowden didn't either.
“What Edward Snowden has done is an amazingly brave and courageous act of civil disobedience.”
26
He broke the law in defense of the constitution and is to be admired.
Enjoy the freedom while you can the RINO Mr. McConnell is against freedom
6
Should not be collected if only because you can't trust anyone of any party just to much power to corrupt.-> Don't forget the founding fathers view on the subject “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” ”Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.” Ben Franklin
8
It's too bad that Rand Paul, with his legitimate stand against government overreach, is locked into an ideological straightjacket. For as he has admitted, his rigid belief system would have also led him to vote against provisions of the Voting Rights Act, which made it illegal to discriminate in public accommodations. Ah yes, businessmen and corporations must have the "freedom" to do whatever they want, but the terrible terrible government (us) must be starved and shrunk and "drowned in a bathtub". What is wrong with that scenario? I wholeheartedly agree with Rand Paul: no wholesale eavesdropping on the masses. But --- his ideology also proclaims that it's OK to turn black people, and others, away from your lunch-counter. I would rather not order from that rigid libertarian menu!
As Dylan once sang:
Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats Too noble to neglect . Deceived me into thinking I had something to protect . Good and bad, I defined these terms. Quite clear, no doubt, somehow. Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now.....
As Dylan once sang:
Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats Too noble to neglect . Deceived me into thinking I had something to protect . Good and bad, I defined these terms. Quite clear, no doubt, somehow. Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now.....
7
No way I believe this... It's a look at my left hand, while my right hand does the trick...You really, really think they are letting this expire. Like at midnight... The NSA is just shutting down the machine??? LMAO!!! HAHAHA! Ok sheeple!
7
I think the text below written by James Madison in Federalist 51 relates well to the need of Fourth Amendment type limits on government.
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."
The Federalist Papers were published in NY to explain the constitution then being considered. You can read Federalist #51 in its entirety here:
http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa51.htm
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."
The Federalist Papers were published in NY to explain the constitution then being considered. You can read Federalist #51 in its entirety here:
http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa51.htm
14
Every phone company keeps records of the numbers you call and how long you talk. Jeopardizing America's security to protect a privacy that does not exist is not worth it. This is a false choice. The amended bill does not encroach more on citizen's privacy that many companies already do. The fact that organized crime entities and foreign citizens may own phone companies means that the government under legal scrutiny is a safer option.
Women have lost far more privacy in recent years when Republicans have placed government mandates for non-medically necessary, invasive transvaginal probes before receiving legal medical procedures, but there aren't many men who care about that half of the population. The Hobby Lobby decision means women's prescription drug coverage is no longer between women and their doctors, but that their bosses get to decide. Rand Paul is not on the Senate floor advocating for privacy for women's bodies against mandated invasions.
ISIS is aggressively recruiting Americans and encouraging lone wolf attacks. National security is not a plaything, and if any one out there cares about real physical invasions of privacy, they would care also about women's rights.
Women have lost far more privacy in recent years when Republicans have placed government mandates for non-medically necessary, invasive transvaginal probes before receiving legal medical procedures, but there aren't many men who care about that half of the population. The Hobby Lobby decision means women's prescription drug coverage is no longer between women and their doctors, but that their bosses get to decide. Rand Paul is not on the Senate floor advocating for privacy for women's bodies against mandated invasions.
ISIS is aggressively recruiting Americans and encouraging lone wolf attacks. National security is not a plaything, and if any one out there cares about real physical invasions of privacy, they would care also about women's rights.
2
Like the obsessive, the alcoholic, the compulsive gambler we have hundreds of military/intelligence agencies which keep doing the same things over and over while apparently expecting different outcomes. The drug of choice here is how big a slice of the 55% of all our annual discretionary tax dollars each of these bureaucratic entities can obtain to maintain their existence. At what point in the "we have to investigate everything, in order to defend against anything" absurdity can some adults just say Stop! Kudos to Senator Paul. Where are the Progressive Democrats who should be making common cause with him to end at least one part of this whole shameful enterprise?
12
Great question. Where was the uber liberal Bernie Sanders?
You know, the Presidential campaign process is messy, corrupt, too long, sometimes absurd, and unworthy of our country. But sometimes, it does produce a great result. Thanks to Sen. Paul for standing up for the rights of Americans to privacy.
19
It is scary and at the same time illuminating to see how politicians are scrambling to generate justification for the wholesale domestic spying enabled by the expiring sections of the so-called "Patriot Act". There is little patriotic and nothing constitutional about these provisions, however they have some strong hold on the military/surveillance/political cabal that holds the real power in Washington, such that vigorous fearmongering is being employed to make us all feel that without these surveillance programs our safety will vanish. Yet ask the surveillance hounds to provide evidence that they have used any of the data collected, even once, to intervene and prevent a terrorist attack from otherwise occurring, and they can provide no evidence of the usefulness of these programs. Despite this broad, wholesale and unconstitutional surveillance, there have been no evidence that the billions spent, and the gutting of our civil liberties in the name of 'safety' has provided any real safety at all. Its time to get focused on finding the real terrorist suspects, without adding massive amounts of unproductive data to an already daunting task of finding 'needles in a haystack'. The last productive thing to do is make the haystack ever bigger.
106
Fear and money make the Republican world go 'round.
I agree with all but one reference in your comment. Describing individuals suspected of plotting to do damage to people, places or things in America as "terrorists" does nothing to facilitate their capture. Indeed, it may give these criminals the appearance of revolutionary political or religious warriors to whom other disturbed criminal types might be attracted. If the co-conspirators of the 911 suicidal hijackers had been treated like the criminals they were and dealt with in the criminal justice system rather than as state actors justifying war against Afghanistan and Iraq, none of the reactive anti-democratic legislation would have been necessary. RICO and its international equivalents could have been employed to involve the FBI, Interpol and the criminal justice systems of other countries to deal with the murderous criminals. When a bank robber in Kentucky flourishes a gun or knife, his purpose is to cause terror (aka, fear) in the minds of those present. Do we call hi. A terrorist? No. Anytime a person uses the threat of violence or violence itself to get what he or she wants, they are "terrorists" in the literal sense. But for some reason, criminal hijackers, bombers and the like from the Middle East have been given their own scary sounding designation: Terrorists. We dealt successfully with the mafia using criminal conspiracy, tax and other laws. I believe we and the international community can do the same with our more recent tormentors.
I just wish Commenters -- and Americans in general -- showed as much concern about the corporate invasion of our privacy as they do about the government's invasion. As the current article clearly demonstrates, there is some public debate, transparency, and control over what the government does. No such transparency, let alone accountability, exists when it comes to transgressions by Facebook, Apple, Google, Twitter, and the endless data outfits whose names are not household words, but in whose servers and bank accounts your life resides.
247
Do Facebook and Google arrest people, kill people, ruin the lives of people? People are understandably more concerned about being persecuted by the government than getting customized ads from Google.
118
People have little comprehension of the technical issues involved. It's like shouting at big data analysts in the medical field, "Have you actually saved a life yet??" No one would stop the medical profession from its pursuit of medical advances in all that data despite the fact that they are only starting to see the possibilities.
The ability to look at large amounts of information and try to glean something from it is in its nascency. The NSA must also develop this ability and should not be prevented from taking advantage of this technology. If anything, even more data will be available to the NSA that could keep our country safe. What then? Disconnect all its computers? This is backwards thinking.
The ability to look at large amounts of information and try to glean something from it is in its nascency. The NSA must also develop this ability and should not be prevented from taking advantage of this technology. If anything, even more data will be available to the NSA that could keep our country safe. What then? Disconnect all its computers? This is backwards thinking.
3
Private corporations do not have the ability to come to your house armed and charge you with a crime. People are concerned that the government is eventually going to build circumstantial cases uses metadata to target political rivals/dissenters.
5
I cannot stand Senator Rand Paul - but on this issue I wholeheartedly agree with him. We should NEVER give up freedom for security. A dog can be well fed - but will be very unhappy if he is not allowed to bark.
9
okay ... no more seat belts in cars, or speed limits. no more identity checks at airports. no more age limits for drinking. this can be fun, getting rid of everything that helps keep us from killing ourselves ... and one another. FREEDOM!
The word "freedom", as John Szalkay used it above, does not mean what you imply. I'll get off your lawn now.
An interesting week when a Republican wages battle against the "Patriot Act" and the GOP State of Nebraska ends capitol punishment. Perhaps we are going to realize Norman Mailer's "libertarian socialism" in our lifetime.
3
An Ounce of Prevention is worth a Pound of Cure... That is true of the Enola issue as well as this Act.
Just think if there is a Terrorist Act that could have been prevented by having the ability to monitor people fully - it would be definitely worth it...
Remember 9/11 - it really happened - I know I was there...
Just think if there is a Terrorist Act that could have been prevented by having the ability to monitor people fully - it would be definitely worth it...
Remember 9/11 - it really happened - I know I was there...
1
How do these Senators have find time to debate renewal of the Stasi Act(In Orwellian terms it is called the 'Patriot' Act), while they are so busy giving away the sacred lands of our Native Americans to foreign mining interests? Let the Stasi Act die, and revoke the recent amendment that corrupt Senators McCain and Flake added to a Defense Bill(the giveaway of Oak Flats in Arizona to MCain's campaign contributor).
19
Wish I could have a hero other than Senator Paul. But, as the saying goes, beggars can't be choosers. And when it comes to Washington insider National Security politics, we the American people are beggars. Most "serious" politicians would be willing to light the Bill of Rights on fire and dance upon its ashes before they'd risk being blamed in a media feeding frenzy over some future terrorist attack, for defending our rights. For them it is neither policy nor principle, but just CYA politics as usual. Senator Mitch McConnell calls it "a campaign of demagoguery," but out of his mouth that's a synonym for political courage. Rand Paul may make it from crackpot to statesman, yet.
16
I think he just did. If you add to it the opposition to drone strikes (remember that filibuster, when he wasn't running for POTUS btw) his campaign to reform the criminal justice system and expunge records of non-violent juvenile offenses so the kids can have a life some day, his efforts to end militarization of local police and end the War on Drugs, well, if it walks like a hero and quacks like a hero, it just might be one.
It is easy to be "for" freedom and civil liberties…who is not? But it would be fascinating to see how many citizens who are righteously indignant at the thought of "intelligence gathering" click "Agree" to any and all privacy agreements ...without reading them. It would seem that there is almost a giddy eagerness to give away personal information --so long as it is to those beacons of benevolence--companies.
6
Your comment is on the money. We are our own worst enemies... after
Mitch McConnell, Sergei Brin and Mark Zuckerberg.
Mitch McConnell, Sergei Brin and Mark Zuckerberg.
1
I would MUCH rather have a my personal information exposed to Google than the government. The government throws people in a jail, sends SWAT teams into people's homes, takes people's possessions, and even kills people, including American citizens. Google gives me ads customized to my interests.
I think it is constitutional. It just needs to done wisely. Use has to be limited and carefully scrutinized. It also has to be limited to combatting terrorism, not domestic crime.
2
And how do you propose to do that? A deaf ear filter? This entire business of the government at all levels monitoring our calls, emails, Internet activity, and even collecting all our license plates at the local level has to stop, and stop now!
8
That sounds great, Phil, when you put it like that. Except, based on the "deaf ear filter" comment I have to ask if you realize that the program is not about listening to calls, which is still illegal, but obtaining information about the calls like who called whom and when. That's problematic enough, but the hysteria to completely stop any form of the program reminds me of the hysteria after 9/11 when so many people on both sides of the aisle were calling for some form of torture of prisoners, far greater security measures and believing in Iraqi WPM despite an absence of credible evidence. As with most things, I believe we will come to a rational balance, given time and cool heads.
With all due respect to Senator McConnell, how could there be a campaign of disinformation for the bill? We don't know what the intelligence agencies *really* do, hence the public's skepticism, as opposed to the blind faith for which the bill's proponents ask.
The ideal of intelligence is to acquire *all* of the data. That sounds bad, so there is a token relinquishment of that policy. Their response is, "trust us". It is only natural that intelligent people are going to greet this bill circumspectly.
This bill originated in the mindless panic of 2001. But it was passed by congressmen for whom people voted. Some people are moved by fear, uncertainty and doubt, and there are agencies in government that can leverage that fear to get funding.
As far as I know, the proverbial cat is out of the bag. An intelligence agency will be impossible to monitor. It could subcontract internet and phone surveillance work to another government agency with big data capability. How would we ever know?
Thorough surveillance is going to happen. We are all dependent on the ethical qualities of our intelligence organizations. So when Senator McConnel is upset at the push-back he receives on this bill, he needs to understand that he cannot assuage the strong suspicion of detractors that the ethics of the intelligence agencies could falter.
The ideal of intelligence is to acquire *all* of the data. That sounds bad, so there is a token relinquishment of that policy. Their response is, "trust us". It is only natural that intelligent people are going to greet this bill circumspectly.
This bill originated in the mindless panic of 2001. But it was passed by congressmen for whom people voted. Some people are moved by fear, uncertainty and doubt, and there are agencies in government that can leverage that fear to get funding.
As far as I know, the proverbial cat is out of the bag. An intelligence agency will be impossible to monitor. It could subcontract internet and phone surveillance work to another government agency with big data capability. How would we ever know?
Thorough surveillance is going to happen. We are all dependent on the ethical qualities of our intelligence organizations. So when Senator McConnel is upset at the push-back he receives on this bill, he needs to understand that he cannot assuage the strong suspicion of detractors that the ethics of the intelligence agencies could falter.
10
McConnell is clearly the enemy. He wants to spy on us 24/7 and give away the few remaining decent jobs through the TPP.
I still say the only way to stop this runaway government is simply to get off our collective butts, go to the polls, and re-elect no one. This is the only path left to us to clean house and one we should follow while we still have the right to vote.
I still say the only way to stop this runaway government is simply to get off our collective butts, go to the polls, and re-elect no one. This is the only path left to us to clean house and one we should follow while we still have the right to vote.
5
"Eisenhower's Farewell Address" - heed it well...
Next, it is long past due to vote every incumbent out, regardless of party. Career politicians are evil personified.
5
Exactly! We all need to shut down our gadgets for a few hours and go to the polls and have a real House (and Senate) cleaning while we still can.
1
I am so sick and tired of these - words fail - obstreperous, incompetent, reckless children posing as adult legislators, hurtling this country from one unnecessary crisis or near-crisis after another while so many citizens suffer daily indignities, our infrastructure crumbles, our planet further deteriorates and our national security gets compromised. All unnecessary. All because our elected officials lack depth and integrity and sell out to the highest bidder. Makes one despair.
26
Senators coming in to work on a Sunday night, such travails.
Maybe after this fails some will get the courage to look into the budget of NSA that, along with our 'muscular' Defense Dept, is siphoning off everything but Jamie Dimon's bonuses.
Maybe this can save some money out of the budget--- small gov't, right Mitch? All about the deficit, so this should help, right Republicans? Keep the gov't out of our freedoms?
So much cognitive dissonance!
Pardon a lot of us for being intensely cynical, dear Congress, but your unholy acts revealed by Snowden don't go away just b/c you yell national security anymore.
Maybe after this fails some will get the courage to look into the budget of NSA that, along with our 'muscular' Defense Dept, is siphoning off everything but Jamie Dimon's bonuses.
Maybe this can save some money out of the budget--- small gov't, right Mitch? All about the deficit, so this should help, right Republicans? Keep the gov't out of our freedoms?
So much cognitive dissonance!
Pardon a lot of us for being intensely cynical, dear Congress, but your unholy acts revealed by Snowden don't go away just b/c you yell national security anymore.
45
It won't change nuthin'. They'll jest keep right on spyin'. I must confest to a bit of ambivalence about it all. The lying sacks in Washington versus not wanting folks who do not wish us well catching us with our pants down.
Regardless of anybody's politics, we have to give credit to Sen. Paul. How often do we see a Senator cowering down, rather than simply object to programs he or she feels repugnant, just to allow the majority sail unimpeded via unanimous consent and pass all manner of defective laws, simply under a false cover of expediency and necessity?
Precisely, it is unanimous consent what allows party leaders to ram through "must pass" legislation, including abject riders --such as, just last December, the one that Sen. McCain slipped in to remove parkland sacred to the Apache, and give it to Rio Tinto mining as part of the bill funding the military just last December.
It is high time that Senators vote their conscience, and their beliefs. Sen. Paul has indeed shown something that is so very lacking in all of the other Presidential Candidates: courage and a respect of the Constitution.
Precisely, it is unanimous consent what allows party leaders to ram through "must pass" legislation, including abject riders --such as, just last December, the one that Sen. McCain slipped in to remove parkland sacred to the Apache, and give it to Rio Tinto mining as part of the bill funding the military just last December.
It is high time that Senators vote their conscience, and their beliefs. Sen. Paul has indeed shown something that is so very lacking in all of the other Presidential Candidates: courage and a respect of the Constitution.
11
It's a farce upon a farce. The "Freedom Act" is just that; an Act.
For very long, all the phone companies were in the cops and governments pockets. There was a separation of the governments and the companies and their cooperation was not widely known or forgotten. Now the Act will legitimize a direct link between the government and the phone companies with the farcical notion that somehow the secret court will assure the rights of the target callers, or the population in it's entirety. This is all smoke and mirrors from a Congress and their government that finds it so easy to dupe the American public.
For very long, all the phone companies were in the cops and governments pockets. There was a separation of the governments and the companies and their cooperation was not widely known or forgotten. Now the Act will legitimize a direct link between the government and the phone companies with the farcical notion that somehow the secret court will assure the rights of the target callers, or the population in it's entirety. This is all smoke and mirrors from a Congress and their government that finds it so easy to dupe the American public.
3
We are always a bit jaded when we talk about how politicians are just for the corporations and never do anything for the people. Here ladies and gentlemen, one stood up and defended all of us. I really hope the liberty streak in Rand Paul catches fire with more politicians and we can go back to trying to be a free people again.
10
Rand Paul was using this issue for campaign donations which he made painfully obvious, so let's not get carried away with support for Paul. He likes to be a contrarian and sometimes it works for the people....but he also voted to shut down our government and deny women control over their own bodies and equal pay, which is a little worse than listening to my phone calls.
Sad when the only person championing civil liberties in the Senate is Rand Paul.
22
Senator Paul is out in front on this, but he isn't alone. Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon is definitely on the correct side of this issue as is the other Senator from Oregon, Merkley, and there are others.
This whole thing has been overblown. We need this as much as a mandate to torcher. The psychopaths administering these programs have all the integrity of the inquisition. We are supposed to be afraid of everything but nobody is paying any attention to the banksters. Good distraction, just how much money is spent on all this and what has it accomplished, other than to make the oligarchy richer and more powerful. The East German Staci would be watering at the mouth. Why do they need this legislated, they are doing anything they want anyway? The thing comes across as a cartoon. It's really a government inside the government.
10
The idea of bulk collection and storage does not both me nearly as much as the Court safe guards that should be in place. The FISA court, in my opinion does not have sufficient safe guards or oversight to ensure that they have not be come a rubber stamp for the collection and storage. Do we form a 3 justice panel to look at each of the decisions of the court and to the validity of the warrants. Do we require that the FISA court produce a report to a select group of senators and representatives. The Collection and Storage is important as it give the US a leg up on who is trying to conduct Terror Campaigns in the US. We need more controls.
30
A vote to suspend NSAs operations weakens our protection against foreign cyber threats.
I wish to take this opportunity to support the NSA and their recommendations to protect my family and this nation. The good, hard working men and women of the NSA deserve our utmost respect and support. In no way, do I consider their use of technology for surveillance as harming my individual freedoms, or violating constitutional protections.
We did not choose this Cyberwar, it came to our doorstep. And therefore, the threat does not go away by a democratic vote. Defending our country in the next 20 years requires trusting the NSA recommendations, and not standing in their way as they continuously innovate to protect us. In the world of technology, hardware and software, today’s effective tactics and methods are leapfrogged by the next innovation every 6 months.
Interrupting, or suspending, this cyber warfare innovation cycle, will put us behind foreign nations’ abilities by an order of magnitude. Watch a Stanley Cup Playoff game at 10X speed, and you will begin to appreciate the pace at which the NAS must compete with other nations. Foreign cyber threats wait for openings of just one millisecond. Letting our guard down for any duration, would be regrettable.
We must offer our competitors and enemies no openings, and no corner to hide. Senators and Congressmen have my respect as well. And I hope they can reach a common understanding with the NSA that protects us all.
I wish to take this opportunity to support the NSA and their recommendations to protect my family and this nation. The good, hard working men and women of the NSA deserve our utmost respect and support. In no way, do I consider their use of technology for surveillance as harming my individual freedoms, or violating constitutional protections.
We did not choose this Cyberwar, it came to our doorstep. And therefore, the threat does not go away by a democratic vote. Defending our country in the next 20 years requires trusting the NSA recommendations, and not standing in their way as they continuously innovate to protect us. In the world of technology, hardware and software, today’s effective tactics and methods are leapfrogged by the next innovation every 6 months.
Interrupting, or suspending, this cyber warfare innovation cycle, will put us behind foreign nations’ abilities by an order of magnitude. Watch a Stanley Cup Playoff game at 10X speed, and you will begin to appreciate the pace at which the NAS must compete with other nations. Foreign cyber threats wait for openings of just one millisecond. Letting our guard down for any duration, would be regrettable.
We must offer our competitors and enemies no openings, and no corner to hide. Senators and Congressmen have my respect as well. And I hope they can reach a common understanding with the NSA that protects us all.
36
"We must offer our competitors and enemies no openings, and no corner to hide."
Yes, but are you saying the same for ordinary citizens of the U.S.? Other than trust in the intelligence organizations, what measures do you propose that safeguard against abuse of the system?
Yes, but are you saying the same for ordinary citizens of the U.S.? Other than trust in the intelligence organizations, what measures do you propose that safeguard against abuse of the system?
3
But see, you're presenting a false dichotomy. It doesn't have to be either we support the program as-is or we open the door for cyber criminals and those that would wish to do us harm.
Side note, you are conflating the original intended purpose of these programs, i.e. to "protect" us from terrorists, with the newest threat our government has attached to these programs in order to justify their continued existence, i.e. the threat of cyber warfare. This alone should be evidence of how the powers that be will continue to contort their reasoning to protect us from the threat de jour in an effort to continue these violations of our privacy indefinitely while expanding their surveillance on the flimsiest of justifications.
Had our leaders shown any sort of restraint or respect for the Constitution, the rule of law, due process, or our privacy in the decade-and-a-half since first conceiving of these programs, I would be more willing to trust their judgements and defer to their recommendations. However, they have continually shown their disregard for our privacy and the constitution, lied to our faces, and demonstrated time and again their inability to exercise these great powers with any sort of restraint.
My issue is not necessarily with the career operators at the NSA, my issue is with the leadership that has designed these systems that run rough-shod over our liberties and lied to our faces the whole way.
Side note, you are conflating the original intended purpose of these programs, i.e. to "protect" us from terrorists, with the newest threat our government has attached to these programs in order to justify their continued existence, i.e. the threat of cyber warfare. This alone should be evidence of how the powers that be will continue to contort their reasoning to protect us from the threat de jour in an effort to continue these violations of our privacy indefinitely while expanding their surveillance on the flimsiest of justifications.
Had our leaders shown any sort of restraint or respect for the Constitution, the rule of law, due process, or our privacy in the decade-and-a-half since first conceiving of these programs, I would be more willing to trust their judgements and defer to their recommendations. However, they have continually shown their disregard for our privacy and the constitution, lied to our faces, and demonstrated time and again their inability to exercise these great powers with any sort of restraint.
My issue is not necessarily with the career operators at the NSA, my issue is with the leadership that has designed these systems that run rough-shod over our liberties and lied to our faces the whole way.
2
Are you serious? "Hope they can reach a common understanding....?"
And, our Criminal Congress has your respect? Surely you jest?
And, our Criminal Congress has your respect? Surely you jest?
1
I agree with President Obama that this is not about politics. That is why I support Rand Paul in his efforts to stop the so-called patriot and freedom acts, which are anything but patriotic or free.
I also call upon all Senators to admit that they wouldn't even be having this debate, nor would Americans even know about it, if it hadn't been for Edward Snowden. It's time to grant him full immunity from the power of the governnment and allow him to come home.
I also call upon all Senators to admit that they wouldn't even be having this debate, nor would Americans even know about it, if it hadn't been for Edward Snowden. It's time to grant him full immunity from the power of the governnment and allow him to come home.
39
Fear not our so called leaders will let us down they always do and tell us it's good for us.
10
It is deeply disturbing that our leaders regard this issue so critical to "national security". All without a shred of supporting evidence to support its efficacy, shades of Cheney's continued support of torture,
and how it "protected the nation".
Our government, and too many of those at the top, have been corrupted by power. Clapper and the CIA blatantly lying to Congress is just the tip of the iceberg.
Hurrah to Snowden who deserves a medal for his actions, the only real patriot in this tawdry scenario.
and how it "protected the nation".
Our government, and too many of those at the top, have been corrupted by power. Clapper and the CIA blatantly lying to Congress is just the tip of the iceberg.
Hurrah to Snowden who deserves a medal for his actions, the only real patriot in this tawdry scenario.
20
I grew up in the late fifties and earlt sixties, and I was raised in a working-class, extended family of European immigrants. And I've consequently leaned to the left in my politics ever since I started voting as a young man.. But I admire Sen. Rand Paul. He stood up for our Bill of Rights. I hope this survwilnce bill(s) today crashes and burns and goes down to defeat. It will strike "a blow for freedom" as President Harry Truman used to like to say when he had sneaked an early afternoon "beverage." We all owe Sen. Rand Paul a great deal of thanks for his courageous stand. This country was supposedly founded upon the principle that we are a nation of laws rather than elected officilals who are mnore concerned about doing what is politically expendient to win elections and appear to voters that they are "patriotic." Sen. Rand Paul acted as a true patriot for our country in his recent mini-filibuster in the Senate.
16
Senator Paul is acting as a true grand-stander in trying to turn off the alarm system without having anything -- not even a barking dog -- to replace it.
1
David, that "barking dog" of yours has had a muzzle put on its mouth so it doesn't take a bite out of our Bill of RIghts. Thanks to Sen. Rand Paul's stand. And that dog of yours? Well, it's been consigned to the kennel where all reactionary animals really belong. And, please tell me, David, in all honesty, what politician in either party doesn't grandstand? But Sen. Rand Paul did the right thing during his grandstanding. That's what really counts at the end of the day. Ruff, ruff!
No. Let it expire. Let it ALL expire. Then we can witness the republicans try to put something together and it will be another textbook example of the fact that they are incapable of governing.
They cannot (and have not) kept our nation safe. We have witnessed that they will sit back and do nothing, even when warned in advance of an attack.
We all know they will slash funds for anything and everything and then act surprised when things go wrong, or deliberately slash funds to destroy the government (see IRS) and then complain that it doesn't work.
Again - VOTE NO!
They cannot (and have not) kept our nation safe. We have witnessed that they will sit back and do nothing, even when warned in advance of an attack.
We all know they will slash funds for anything and everything and then act surprised when things go wrong, or deliberately slash funds to destroy the government (see IRS) and then complain that it doesn't work.
Again - VOTE NO!
32
I almost completely agree -- except that the fools, in their incompetence to craft a substitute, might get us all killed.
1
This seems to be led by the immature movement called Libertarianism which is all too happy to destroy the social contract that our government has with its people. There are pros and cons to the Patriot Act, like all comprehensive legislation. But to show the unprecedented mistrust of government, some members of Congress feel that sitting down with their opponents to craft compromise is a betrayal of their ill-defined logic.
1
Perhaps the constitution should be regarded as our social contract. It specifies what the government can do, and just as importantly what it can not. The fourth Amendment part of that contact allows government Search and Seizure, but only when certain considerations are met.
The 1st amendment part of that social contract asserts our right to free assembly and association. We now assemble electronically and perhaps that freedom is infringed when those assemblies are being monitored, whether social media, telephone, or text.
The 1st amendment part of that social contract asserts our right to free assembly and association. We now assemble electronically and perhaps that freedom is infringed when those assemblies are being monitored, whether social media, telephone, or text.
6
The Patriot Act is not exactly "the social contract" between the government and its people. It is best summarized by Orwell's slogan, "Big Brother is watching you."
4
If Obama and all other conservative pols insist that the surveillance program is critical to keeping us safe, they need to explain to us how Boston marathon bombing, Fort Hood shooting, failed Times Square bombing, et all took place despite the "vital tools" the program provided and despite the bulk collection of data?
41
Because they'll probably use the information to blackmail future politicians and business leaders 10, 20, 30 years from now. Kids today should know that if they want to run for office someday, they pretty much have to stay off the internet.
1
Nothing is going to keep every bit of America safe from every frustrated angry fool. The fact that you can't stop every one -- particularly ones that are done like the lone wolves of your examples -- doesn't mean you give up the tools that are stopping (maybe) 95% of potential attacks. And there's no way to know how many speeders are deterred by the very existence of the highway patrol.
1
Nearly all the attacks "stopped" were the result of FBI entrapment.
Why should a decision of such magnitude and importance to the security of our nation and to people’s civil liberties be allowed to be decided in this manner? It seems reckless and irresponsible that something has not been agreed upon before this time.
How sound are decisions made while in various states of heightened emotion, fatigue, resignation and stress? No way to do business.
Tack on an automatic 30 day extension if the work is not completed within x number of days prior to deadline.
Businesses don’t survive long when run in constant crisis mode. Neither does our nation.
Too much to expect our congress act like grown-ups and just do their jobs?
How sound are decisions made while in various states of heightened emotion, fatigue, resignation and stress? No way to do business.
Tack on an automatic 30 day extension if the work is not completed within x number of days prior to deadline.
Businesses don’t survive long when run in constant crisis mode. Neither does our nation.
Too much to expect our congress act like grown-ups and just do their jobs?
8
I am glad to see people (in the comments) on the left and right not just instinctively defending their masters, or opposing their ideological opposition, and opposing this egregious violation of everything that is America and America stands for.
28
Senator Paul is the only decent American left in the Senate, apparently, and I say that as a lifelong Democrat.
41
I think that there are number of players in this debate and each have their own viewpoint:
A) NSA folks\contractors - These are employed by the government and are earning huge dollar amounts. Who knows what happens under the tables, but probably there is a lot of corruption as with all secretive institutions. Edward Snowden might have been unhappy at the workplace so he decided to revolt (an exception). There are always some bad apples but in general these guy are making a good livelihood.
B) American people - we don't want anyone spying on us or on our daily activities. But on the other hand we also don't want any act of terrorism in our country. It is still unclear if NSA activities deter or prevent any act of terrorism: an cogent argument can be made on both sides. A better question to ask is: if we are willing to take some terrorism risk by letting the NSA die? It is not even clear what the risk is. Remember statistics is an another way to tell a lie.
C) Politicians - Clearly, GOP want to use every issue to gain more support of the American populace so that they can win the presidency in 2016. President Obama probably don't want to take any imaginary or real risk of terrorism, so he wants to keep the program alive.
Don't blame the president. It's our decision what kind of society we want to live in.
A) NSA folks\contractors - These are employed by the government and are earning huge dollar amounts. Who knows what happens under the tables, but probably there is a lot of corruption as with all secretive institutions. Edward Snowden might have been unhappy at the workplace so he decided to revolt (an exception). There are always some bad apples but in general these guy are making a good livelihood.
B) American people - we don't want anyone spying on us or on our daily activities. But on the other hand we also don't want any act of terrorism in our country. It is still unclear if NSA activities deter or prevent any act of terrorism: an cogent argument can be made on both sides. A better question to ask is: if we are willing to take some terrorism risk by letting the NSA die? It is not even clear what the risk is. Remember statistics is an another way to tell a lie.
C) Politicians - Clearly, GOP want to use every issue to gain more support of the American populace so that they can win the presidency in 2016. President Obama probably don't want to take any imaginary or real risk of terrorism, so he wants to keep the program alive.
Don't blame the president. It's our decision what kind of society we want to live in.
35
"B) American people - we don't want anyone spying on us or on our daily activities."
I do not have a problem with surveillance provided it is authorized by a warrant based"upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." I think its blanket surveillance of innocent citizens that most object to.
Our founders recognized the need to limit government. In Federalist Paper #51 James Madison wrote"
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."
How about you?
I do not have a problem with surveillance provided it is authorized by a warrant based"upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." I think its blanket surveillance of innocent citizens that most object to.
Our founders recognized the need to limit government. In Federalist Paper #51 James Madison wrote"
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."
How about you?
Astonishing response.
Either you sincerely believe the American people have control over government, and who the next President will be, or you are simply another shill for those who, with clear consciense, who willfully set out to destroy our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.
Are you not aware, that just a couple of weeks ago, a three judge panel, in a Court of Law, unanimously found this all-encompassing surveillance to be illegal, but did not order it ended, in deference to Congress and the President, presuming either would issue the order to cease this gross attack on our liberties.
Our President once again, failed the people who believed in him.
Either you sincerely believe the American people have control over government, and who the next President will be, or you are simply another shill for those who, with clear consciense, who willfully set out to destroy our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.
Are you not aware, that just a couple of weeks ago, a three judge panel, in a Court of Law, unanimously found this all-encompassing surveillance to be illegal, but did not order it ended, in deference to Congress and the President, presuming either would issue the order to cease this gross attack on our liberties.
Our President once again, failed the people who believed in him.
just exactly who has suffered because of surveillance, Randyboy? nobody but criminals and terrorists. this stunt to please the koch boys and get their criminal funding must end.
3
You don't need no stinkin' rights, 'cause you've got nothing to hide. Only evil-doers need rights. That's the American way. Right?
31
Oh, so it's only bad if someone "suffers"? There's no other reason to limit government intrusion aside of "suffering"?
5
Sorry, Ned. After spending untold (because secret) amounts of your taxes and mine, the NSA cannot point to ONE terrorist or criminal caught by the program. There's a constitutional amendment (#4) against searches without cause, so the law is also unconstitutional. Time to let it go, and good riddance.
3
This is the kind of time when I really wonder if a president does what he really wants to do or what he is told to do by some other person or people. Why would a constitutional lawyer do this? I'm so disappointed in him. He was supposed to return the rule of law to America. That's why I voted for him. And he has only continued the Bush illegalities and just call them legal. "Oh, they're legal, my team says so".
And Rand Paul? I'd never vote for him because of abortion/women's rights, but on this I give him my thanks. My true thanks. For at least trying to do the right thing by Americans. Our civil liberties are gone and Obama helped them go away. Rand Paul is trying to give them back to us.
And Rand Paul? I'd never vote for him because of abortion/women's rights, but on this I give him my thanks. My true thanks. For at least trying to do the right thing by Americans. Our civil liberties are gone and Obama helped them go away. Rand Paul is trying to give them back to us.
119
"And Rand Paul? I'd never vote for him because of abortion/women's rights, "
I don't know Rand Paul's specific positions but I think most Libertarians view things like Abortion as a state, not Federal issues based on the Tenth Amendment. I expect most states today would allow abortion but to varying degrees.
Amendment X: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."
I don't know Rand Paul's specific positions but I think most Libertarians view things like Abortion as a state, not Federal issues based on the Tenth Amendment. I expect most states today would allow abortion but to varying degrees.
Amendment X: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."
Perfectly said, sophia.
Like you I voted for the man who keeps helping to give our civil liberties away and I am ashamed for and of him
Like you I voted for the man who keeps helping to give our civil liberties away and I am ashamed for and of him
1
Sometimes in life, very rarely albeit, there comes a time, when you should just let it die.
Born of bastardized "Presidency" that was never elected, fostered on a duped citizenry, kept alive by coward politicians looking to keep their jobs, and never caught a single terrorists by the Government's own admission, this direct attack upon our Constitutional Rights and Liberties is just better left for dead like an empty beer can along side the road.
Born of bastardized "Presidency" that was never elected, fostered on a duped citizenry, kept alive by coward politicians looking to keep their jobs, and never caught a single terrorists by the Government's own admission, this direct attack upon our Constitutional Rights and Liberties is just better left for dead like an empty beer can along side the road.
52
And you can be sure they'll recover that beer can and get their 5 cent deposit.
1
And, as today's values would have it, this now becomes a moment to glorify Rand Paul rather than debate what was always a bad law engineered by fear and loathing... It matters little. as eventually The Supreme Court will don their partisan cloaks and show that it was Bush's appointments that endanger our Constitution more than any misnamed law...
13
We got the Patriot Act with the establishment congress, Judiciary, and executives we have. Rand Paul has stood consistently against it. On this issue he deserves praise.
1
I have an ugly feeling that Rand Paul is looking for votes. Tell me I am wrong...
9
I have an ugly feeling we owe something to a guy I could never support. Tell me I'm wrong, please.
12
If he kills the patriot act he's got my vote.
He's a politician and that's what ALL politicians do. What did you expect?
1
“This shouldn’t and can’t be about politics,” Mr. Obama said in his weekly radio address. “This is a matter of national security.”’
--------------------------------------
Wasn't Obama the senator guy who was uber-critical of Patriot Act and said that "we worship the same awesome God in the red and blue states, and we don't like Federal agents poking around in libraries in red and blue states"?
Unprincipled short-changer.
--------------------------------------
Wasn't Obama the senator guy who was uber-critical of Patriot Act and said that "we worship the same awesome God in the red and blue states, and we don't like Federal agents poking around in libraries in red and blue states"?
Unprincipled short-changer.
17
End this illegal, ineffective, waste of taxpayer money tonight.
What surprises me is that no-one is asking how much we have spent at the NSA, violating the 4th amendment, without being able to site a single case where the program stopped an attack.
What surprises me is that no-one is asking how much we have spent at the NSA, violating the 4th amendment, without being able to site a single case where the program stopped an attack.
48
Good question. And how much have we spent (or how much has it cost us) to fill Denny's bank account with enough money to offer 3.4 million to cover up sexual abuse scandals?
1
What about the Fourth Amendment? Clapper, McConnell, Reid, and Obama all swore to defend and protect the Constitution. How can they justify collecting bulk records of the American people, clearly a breach of that amendment? Does anyone honestly believe our forefathers would have approved of secret courts, secret judges, and secret decisions, some of which our senators and representatives didn't even know about? This all stinks to high heaven. Rand Paul may not be right about everything, but this time he is right on. Go, Rand!
46
I can't believe that people aren't willing for their old phone bills to be examined by the government after a court order has been issued. In 67 years, I never dreamed that my phone bill—a text created and owned by my phone company, not by me—could be considered to be as private as my own personal papers—as my diary, for example. I really feel that there is a kind of bandwagon effect here, that people are being swept up by a bad but popular idea that they haven't adequately thought through.
Well, for what it's worth, I hope that the Senate passes the House bill and that President Obama signs it into law later today.
Well, for what it's worth, I hope that the Senate passes the House bill and that President Obama signs it into law later today.
50
It's not that your "old phone bills" should be "as private" as your diary. consider what could be extrapolated from such metatdata when combined with other publicly available databases: who you call, how frequently, where you call from, when you call that person. To gather such data several decades ago, you would have to follow someone around like a private detective, but now it can be done anonymously through algorithms and one can reasonably infer much else about a person from whom they associate, how they spend their time. You may not care, but many Americans do, and many more would if they stopped to actually think about how intrusive this really is.
You might also consider the concept of "mission creep": you may be okay with the current level of surveillance..but give the NSA a cookie..and soon our grandchildren will be as nonchalant about giving up privacy in their bedroom; "Well, they already track us everywhere else...what's the difference?"
You might also consider the concept of "mission creep": you may be okay with the current level of surveillance..but give the NSA a cookie..and soon our grandchildren will be as nonchalant about giving up privacy in their bedroom; "Well, they already track us everywhere else...what's the difference?"
1
That's not how the "law" works. They don't get a court order to look at phone records that the phone company has. They have phone recordings "on file" for every telephone call made in the USA and probably from the USA to anywhere and probably from anywhere to the USA. If you don't think some low level Government employee is going to "sneak a peek" at a phone call that might be interesting you're living in the past. At 67 maybe you are, but I'm 74 and I try to keep up with the times.
1
Its not just the phone bills, its provisions that allow the government to declare your email to be outside of privacy protection after 6 months and similar provisions.
Keep your gubmint hands off my phone calls.
10
A stopped clock and Rand Paul are occasionally correct.
20
"These tools are important to American lives."
Well then, find some other tools that don't compromise citizens' privacy rights. Privacy rights are far more important and far more worth defending.
Well then, find some other tools that don't compromise citizens' privacy rights. Privacy rights are far more important and far more worth defending.
36
And if this ain't a soft coup d'etat I don't know what is. This is PRECISELY the sort of spurious disgusting propaganda campaign a corrupt leadership and rabid military colluding with that corrupt leadership would bring about.
A moribund, stacked, spineless, rubber-stamp judiciary, check. A perverse, narcissistic, self-serving, pedantic legislature, check. A corporate press defense-run monopoly almost completely in control of the message, check. A protected, over-reaching, ferociously invasive and fascist surveillance apparatus, check. A narcotically addictive run-away military budget replete with paramilitary and secret expenditure, check. Top down private contractor/government quid pro quo revolving door collusion in every facet of our civil society, check. Gerrymandering and non-representational district-fixing, check. Repressive domestic enforcement of unfair resource and income distribution, check. Hurray!!! History in the making!!
Oh no now I'm probably suspect lol
A moribund, stacked, spineless, rubber-stamp judiciary, check. A perverse, narcissistic, self-serving, pedantic legislature, check. A corporate press defense-run monopoly almost completely in control of the message, check. A protected, over-reaching, ferociously invasive and fascist surveillance apparatus, check. A narcotically addictive run-away military budget replete with paramilitary and secret expenditure, check. Top down private contractor/government quid pro quo revolving door collusion in every facet of our civil society, check. Gerrymandering and non-representational district-fixing, check. Repressive domestic enforcement of unfair resource and income distribution, check. Hurray!!! History in the making!!
Oh no now I'm probably suspect lol
18
Wow! Just wow! Did you write the on-the-fly, or have you rehearsed that (i.e. c/p from elsewhere). I wish I could recall each of these points so succinctly when I try to explain why our government is anything but noble and selfless. +10000...
The so-called "compromise" requiring approval by the FISA court is only a public relations gimmick. Available records show that the FISA court turns down government requests much more rarely than a blue moon occurs. We are unfortunately in a position where the government demands to know everything about it's citizens and we are not allowed to know what it is doing. The government will only cite "national security" as the reason it will not disclose details on whether these measures are effective or not. Who will trust the guardians, and we are not permitted to know?
10
I am so disappointed in Obama and Feinstein. Obama is supposed to a champion of the people, but he has proven time and time again that he is a closet Republican. He wants to spy on the people. He wants to kill innocent people in other countries. There was an article in the New York Times recently about the Scythians which contained excellent advise against involving the country against an enemy you can't even engage, but my bet is he did not read it. The security of our country DOES NOT depend on spying on the population's communications. Stop it and stop it now!
43
This is far more revealing of Obama's pro-NSA machinations than the Repubs (who are acting predictably on the matter).
11
Predictably? Never would I have dreamt that in 2015, the Republican Party in the Senate would be ripped to pieces by this legislation which has been passed with the support of both parties in the House with the support of the President: McConnell and his faction, who want to keep open the collection by the NSA of metadata (this is probably moot since the Federal Courts have actually already declared the relevant section of the Patriot Act illegal, though they issued a stay on their decision); Rand Paul, who wants a repeal of all provisions of the Patriot Act; and the rest, who support the bill passed by the House of Representatives.
Snowden and Paul are heroes. I'm sure that Obama is correct that this legislation has essential features not connected with snooping on the entire US population, but the terrible aspects shouldn't have been combined with the rest. I would never vote for Paul in a million years, but the abuses Snowden revealed cannot be forgotten or forgiven. The American people run the government, not the other way around.
445
Gene, the American people do not run this government now or ever, not with those crooked 545 imbeciles that run this country. They make up all the rules and regulations for you and me, and mainly for themselves and their back pockets. We need the likes of more Pauls and Snowdens around to set the record straight.
Snowden is not a hero - he is a traitor. As president, Rand Paul would leave our country open for attack - make no bones about it. He has no care for our security and neither did his traitor friend, Edward Snowden.
What we can do, if we don't vote for Paul, is to not vote for an Obama, McConnell or anyone else who wants wholesale snooping. It's time to abandon party lines and vote strictly on the issues.
When someone with Brennan's track record says something unsubstantiated, indeed contrary to all previous known facts, like "these tools are important to American lives", I would hope the NY Times would take the opportunity to qualify it with something like:
"Brennan, who has most recently faced criticism for publicly making false statements about the extent of the CIA spying on its own Senate overseers, contracted two previous investigative panels when he made the unsupported statement "these tools are important to American lives"."
"Brennan, who has most recently faced criticism for publicly making false statements about the extent of the CIA spying on its own Senate overseers, contracted two previous investigative panels when he made the unsupported statement "these tools are important to American lives"."
12
I am so grateful that we have a Rand Paul in the mix up there defying the "we the powerful versus the those that elected us" Capitol platform. Let the onerous, ineffective and gross violation of our civil rights called - disgustingly enough - the Patriot Act perish the way any real threat to our freedom should. The United States should never have been - nor never should be - reduced to such gross "misjudgment," to put is tactfully.
7
The NSA should be required to help fix the internet vulnerabilities that they find instead of exploiting them! This requirement should be part of any extension of surveillance.
3
I command Rand Paul to have courage to stand up to nonsense
12
These politicians are a laughing stock. They had months to figure out how to remedy an unpopular and probably illegal act and now grandstand at the last minute to try and get something done. It's about time to have congress people that can work together and uphold the laws of our country. Perhaps if we were not conducting torture and wars all over the world there would be no terrorists. The real Patriot Act should be protecting Americans against their congress folks and politicians.
17
there should be no deal unless the US government satisfactorily explains abuses such as why it spied on ban ki moon, angela merkel, and the occupy movement. if the abuses cannot be explained, it means that the US government is lying and fully intends to continue lying.
decades ago FBI director J edgar hoover spied on americans illegally with much less technology, for example viciously smearing MLK jr. his misdeeds were uncovered, yet hoover remained in office until his death. the US government wants to repeat the same mistake, pretending that there are no abuses. to this day, FBI hq is the J edgar hoover building.
decades ago FBI director J edgar hoover spied on americans illegally with much less technology, for example viciously smearing MLK jr. his misdeeds were uncovered, yet hoover remained in office until his death. the US government wants to repeat the same mistake, pretending that there are no abuses. to this day, FBI hq is the J edgar hoover building.
15
Paul Rand is virtually alone in his action, not because he is wrong, or because the majority of Americans want the Patriot [sic] /Freedom [sic] act passed or extended, but rather because unlike most of his colleagues, he has the courage to stand up for his convictions.
The so-called conservatives are seen to be just as much in favor of a big brother state as the so-called liberals. By their behavior, both groups have demonstrated that they are not conservative or liberal, but rather corporatist, in the sense of the famous Mussolini quote.
The so-called conservatives are seen to be just as much in favor of a big brother state as the so-called liberals. By their behavior, both groups have demonstrated that they are not conservative or liberal, but rather corporatist, in the sense of the famous Mussolini quote.
42
As I wrote the other day - It doesn't matter whether the Senate passes the Surveillance Law or not - due to a little known and never discussed "secret interpretation" of the Patriot Act which allows the government to commit mass surveillance on every American - even IF the law is left to expire.
So this is nothing but a phony debate that each side of the Corporate-dominated Senate and House get to use against each other to dupe their constituents into thinking that these political hacks have their best interests - as well as that of the country - at heart. The secret interpretations of the "law" by other government authorities give it the same power it would have had under the current "secret interpretation" of this and other areas of the USA PATRIOT Act.
What no one - including this media outlet (NYTimes) - is talking about is the slush fund that's been created by the corporations that profit from the misnomer of a PATRIOT Act - to buy off the politicians to vote in favor of the renewal of the Act, and, what is the actual and true cost to the "Own Your Own Politician in America Act" - the OYOPA…
If we actually knew what dollar figure was needed to sway their votes in favor of the people of this once great land, then we could all get together and form a public corporation and buy the votes for ourselves - and actually get something done to benefit the public.
But, y'all come in to the Sunday media circus and pretend to do something that was going to be done anyway.
So this is nothing but a phony debate that each side of the Corporate-dominated Senate and House get to use against each other to dupe their constituents into thinking that these political hacks have their best interests - as well as that of the country - at heart. The secret interpretations of the "law" by other government authorities give it the same power it would have had under the current "secret interpretation" of this and other areas of the USA PATRIOT Act.
What no one - including this media outlet (NYTimes) - is talking about is the slush fund that's been created by the corporations that profit from the misnomer of a PATRIOT Act - to buy off the politicians to vote in favor of the renewal of the Act, and, what is the actual and true cost to the "Own Your Own Politician in America Act" - the OYOPA…
If we actually knew what dollar figure was needed to sway their votes in favor of the people of this once great land, then we could all get together and form a public corporation and buy the votes for ourselves - and actually get something done to benefit the public.
But, y'all come in to the Sunday media circus and pretend to do something that was going to be done anyway.
1
There is zero evidence that collecting data on all emails and phone calls all the time has any significant value for national security. In fact, the opposite is true.
Shame on our President and Congressional Members that seek to scare the public into giving up their constitutional rights for nothing.
Shame on our President and Congressional Members that seek to scare the public into giving up their constitutional rights for nothing.
58
Pity. I expected more from Pres. Obama a purported constitutional lawyer. This law and the more onerous Executive orders 12333 and 13355 by Ron Reagan gives all law enforcement the ability to castrate the 4th Amendment. Most Senators when asked about these rules don't have a clue what is in the document. To further darken the picture, local police forces are now about to purchase the same technologies as the federals. Something the laws never intended.
I've worked in police states and dictatorships around the globe I never thought I'd see it at home.
I think 14 years into the future we should go back to warrants and reasonable searches and good police work. Just because a computer makes it easy; it doesn't mean it should be done.
I've worked in police states and dictatorships around the globe I never thought I'd see it at home.
I think 14 years into the future we should go back to warrants and reasonable searches and good police work. Just because a computer makes it easy; it doesn't mean it should be done.
46
And then watch The Supreme Court apply their political whim? For all their talk about protecting The Constitution, the right has never walked the walk...
Once again, Mr. McConnell shows his leadership not by offering something constructive, but by obstructing a bill with significant support from other members of Congress and the American people. I sincerely hope there will be a reckoning in next year's elections, and the Republicans come to realize that Senator No has become a symbol of all that's wrong with the party over the past six years.
16
I am having a problem settling in to a POV for or against enhanced surveillance to maintain the nation's security. I am unnerved by those who simplify security in the 21st century by declaring the need only for "efficiency and brains" or just "...find out how it was accomplished, learn and execute it." Are those those realistic answers or simplistic thinking run amok?
It should tell us something about the challenge of maintaining our security (cyber and otherwise) when the usually divided Democrats and Republicans are all intertwined on this issue.
It should tell us something about the challenge of maintaining our security (cyber and otherwise) when the usually divided Democrats and Republicans are all intertwined on this issue.
36
The meta-data of your every correspondence has been collected by the government for years and no one seems to care. It's called an envelope, and it tells the govt. exactly who you're communicating with and who's communicating with you by mail. Phone meta-data is no different; simply a record of one phone number connection to another - but without the names attached (unlike a letter). This is the hypocrisy of the current furor over Snowden's leaks and the twisted desire by many to make him some kind of hero instead of the calculating traitor that he is.
Rand Paul is correct on this issue. The question is whether one live in a "free" society or one lives in a "STASI" state. The exchange of liberty for security means (I may be quoting) that you end up with neither.
123
Yes, you're quoting:
“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
Benjamin Franklin
“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
Benjamin Franklin
Does anyone still believe mass surveillance by the NSA actually protects the US or the world? I don't.
I hope this law expires.
I find it incredible that seemingly behind every US / FBI "terrorist" case, is a paid sketchy informant entrapping half-wits, the gullible, and young men with little perceived future wanting to be part of something bigger and grander than the lives they see unfolding in front of them.
Just tired of seeing bureaucrats manufacturing laws, cases, bogeymen and budgets just to keep the funds flowing.
Let it expire.
Still waiting, hoping, preying for real leadership on this, and so many issues.
I hope this law expires.
I find it incredible that seemingly behind every US / FBI "terrorist" case, is a paid sketchy informant entrapping half-wits, the gullible, and young men with little perceived future wanting to be part of something bigger and grander than the lives they see unfolding in front of them.
Just tired of seeing bureaucrats manufacturing laws, cases, bogeymen and budgets just to keep the funds flowing.
Let it expire.
Still waiting, hoping, preying for real leadership on this, and so many issues.
139
You are absolutely right! They do stings in Portland, OR, offering $50,000 cash to homeless guys with no future to grab the money and show up to push the button to a 22year federal prison term.
It is like the only thing these people can plan and get right is when to go on vacation.
Everything else has to be done at the last minute.
Everything else has to be done at the last minute.
25
No wonder my students do the same thing, they are just emulating our leaders.
1
We can trust government with knowing every telephone number we dial, but we can't trust government to maintain a national firearm registry. To put it another way, we need to know who Aunt Edna's been calling, but we don't want to know how many convertible to full auto firearms are being sold to terrorists at gun shows. American conservative policy making = dangerous stupidity. Do the math.
27
"We can trust government with knowing every telephone number we dial, but we can't trust government to maintain a national firearm registry."
Thank you to Mike S. of Atlanta for not just thinking for yourself--but thinking, period. Unfortunately, contrary to what too many earnest Democrats believe, guess who wins in a Logic vs. Patho-logic contest?
At least we now know not to mistake ideologues for persons of principle.
Thank you to Mike S. of Atlanta for not just thinking for yourself--but thinking, period. Unfortunately, contrary to what too many earnest Democrats believe, guess who wins in a Logic vs. Patho-logic contest?
At least we now know not to mistake ideologues for persons of principle.
It seems in my thus far short life of 70 years this county was able to gather just about any information it needed to protect the people without violating their civil liberties. Find out how it was accomplished, learn and execute it. Let the the Patriot Act die. Among other things, the name embarrasses our true patriots.
574
Government, whether acting lawfully or not, does what it wills in secret because there's nothing to stop it.
11
I agree. It is the most unpatriotic act ever.
1
Nobody has yet come forward with a credible case that their rights have been violated by the Patriot Act. I find it interesting that the people that complain the most about the act are ones who have never read it.
Never mind the heat and dust of demagoguery, I am unclear about the evidence in this regard to vote one way or another. Here are some confounding issues that deserve evidence-based evaluation:
a. If someone is listening to ALL phone calls, do we have the capacity to analyze them without going crazy with false positives? Do we have too many false positives that waste our resources and hurt our focus?
b. Is there any evidence that listening this way has hurt someone, or has been falsely prosecuted.
c. Has listening helped? I am aware there is no way to assess this (i.e., estimate the damage that did not occur), but even anecdotal evidence would help.
Just like all discussion about nuclear energy stopped after Fukushima, all discussion on this will stop if we ever get some lone wolf or organized degenerate succeeding in hurting Americans. I am not clear whether we are spending our way to a has-been country without infrastructure or educational institutions because of our unmitigated, unjustified paranoia; or whether we are playing it safe and it is worth it.
I don't know. I suspect our elected leaders don't know either. But ideological positions - that they have a plenty. And I have total faith in the military industrial complex to keep the paranoia going.
Kalidan
a. If someone is listening to ALL phone calls, do we have the capacity to analyze them without going crazy with false positives? Do we have too many false positives that waste our resources and hurt our focus?
b. Is there any evidence that listening this way has hurt someone, or has been falsely prosecuted.
c. Has listening helped? I am aware there is no way to assess this (i.e., estimate the damage that did not occur), but even anecdotal evidence would help.
Just like all discussion about nuclear energy stopped after Fukushima, all discussion on this will stop if we ever get some lone wolf or organized degenerate succeeding in hurting Americans. I am not clear whether we are spending our way to a has-been country without infrastructure or educational institutions because of our unmitigated, unjustified paranoia; or whether we are playing it safe and it is worth it.
I don't know. I suspect our elected leaders don't know either. But ideological positions - that they have a plenty. And I have total faith in the military industrial complex to keep the paranoia going.
Kalidan
6
Amen. This is why we have all those pesky civil liberties and constitutional protections. Somehow, and I think I know how, sedition and cowardice have become patriotism and courage. Wow.
What makes me laugh is the fact that the NSA can NOT come up with one instance that an attack was averted with their illegal surveillance. Yet as some Americans are convinced by the government that they will be in danger if the government is not allowed to spy without a court order, the citizens cowl, hide and go along with a government they usually don't trust, Americans are by definition gullible fools and followers, not leaders.
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While I do not support the so-called Patriot Act, it is hard to prove a negative. It is conceivable that the existence of the surveillance provisions themselves prevented some terrorist plots in that they were not set in motion at all. Otherwise I agree with you, and maybe this time around there will be more Senators than just Senator Feingold to protect the people of this country from their elected fear-mongers.
1
If national security and stopping terrorism is so important, stop policies that breed hate for the U.S. Most of these terrorist organizations that have sprung up can be traced to some U.S. policy in the past, or some decision by a U.S. President that was not thought through.
A check on government entities is important. ( A system of checks and balances is important in government affairs. ) The argument ought to be on the role of government. ( Not breeding hate and creating unstable governments would be a good start. )
A check on government entities is important. ( A system of checks and balances is important in government affairs. ) The argument ought to be on the role of government. ( Not breeding hate and creating unstable governments would be a good start. )
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Hannah Arnedt certainly had it right when she warned, based on her experience with the Nazi Empire, that, "Empire abroad entails tyranny at home" --- and we are certainly seeing both in spades.
But, Baetoven, you are correct in also saying that 'Empire abroad "breeds hatred" of the metropole of that Empire'!
But, Baetoven, you are correct in also saying that 'Empire abroad "breeds hatred" of the metropole of that Empire'!
Radical new Constitutional Amendment proposed by libertarian radicals. Few in the US House or Senate expected to support the move. The President of the US was quoted as saying if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about. The text of the Amendment follows::
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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.... .... Ooh right, That's already in the Constitution.
Naah, that's just outmoded.
Naah, that's just outmoded.
Amen.
Isis captured 2300 humvees in Mosul They need to spy on Americans to keep us safe give me a break. Go Rand Go
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let it die or I wont vote for you is what id like them to hear.
Its illegal and a breach of public trust as well as an illegal use of tax's which should be a CRIME.
Let make a law that says we can hold them accountable and charge them with a crime if they pass a law that is found to be unconstitutional. We have "branches" of government for a reason and obviously one branch has consolidated too much power and we need to balance the scales but this time I say we empower the people and create accountability to the people.
It should be a crime to misguide the public the way this and past administrations have done.
America has the largest prison population IN THE WORLD. When will we wake up and realize these people running our government need more checks and balances than we do.
Its illegal and a breach of public trust as well as an illegal use of tax's which should be a CRIME.
Let make a law that says we can hold them accountable and charge them with a crime if they pass a law that is found to be unconstitutional. We have "branches" of government for a reason and obviously one branch has consolidated too much power and we need to balance the scales but this time I say we empower the people and create accountability to the people.
It should be a crime to misguide the public the way this and past administrations have done.
America has the largest prison population IN THE WORLD. When will we wake up and realize these people running our government need more checks and balances than we do.
11
Well, they all - every man and woman jack of them - have violated their Oaths of Office and the Constitution, and probably broken numerous laws that were written to prevent this very type of felonious activity. The last time I recall a breech of public trust as odious this, and one that shatters the Constitution as this does, it justified a call for Impeachment. And, any politician in public office who has enabled these illegal acts, should be imprisoned as well. It's well past time to have them all removed from office and a troop of more intelligent simians from the Washington DC Zoo take over and run things in their place. They couldn't do any worse than the cretins we have taking up air and floor space in DC.
Well cited, Boehner, Brennan and Obama, the leaders of America's right wing.
If Brennan would pull his department together, all of the laws needed to track real terrorist exist just as they did before the 2 WTC and the Boston and Oklahoma bombings. High tech gadgetry and Gestapo methods are not what make the difference, efficiency and brains do.
If Brennan would pull his department together, all of the laws needed to track real terrorist exist just as they did before the 2 WTC and the Boston and Oklahoma bombings. High tech gadgetry and Gestapo methods are not what make the difference, efficiency and brains do.
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Do we honestly still believe that ISIS/ISIL - - the group tactically smart enough to mount their attack on Ramadi using the cover of a sandstorm, thus thwarting the U.S.'s airstrike capability - - is going to discuss their plans over the telephone and consequently be tripped up by the bulk collection of phone records? We are probably monitoring their communications in ways so hidden that even Snowden's revelations couldn't reveal them. I smell a red herring.
52
Who know? Maybe the NSA et al will come up with better ways to protect Americans should the Patriot Act die.
6
The Lib NYT readers railed tooth and nail against this program when George Bush was President. What has changed?
7
Nothing has changed really. We have a better President. Unemployment is 1/3 of what it was. The stock markets are making historic record highs, and we have the first meaningful start to healthcare reform in our nation's history. Other than that, nothing's really changed as far as "libs" are concerned.
The first African-American president operating the most transparent administration in our history, is what has happened. Just ask Edward Snowden, and Julian Assange, and all the whistleblowers who have been imprisoned or threatened with imprisonment…or the Senators threatened with jail time for revealing the contents of the TPP…
Looks like nothing has changed. From the tone of most of the responses I've read, Times readers are still mostly against the unpatriotic Patriot (sic) Act.
4
Let it expire!!
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Go Rand! Kill it dead, dead, dead...
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We now have the proof (if any was needed) that our government is hopelessly deadlocked. Had this condition been present in December 1941 we would still be debating (in Japanese or German) how to respond to Pearl Harbor.
We need to elect politicians who understand what politics is - the art of compromise. Not "my way or the highway."
We need to elect politicians who understand what politics is - the art of compromise. Not "my way or the highway."
Not when it comes to civil liberties -- "a nation willing to give up its liberty for a little security will have neither".
Better hurry up Senate, those campaign donation favors to the defense industry won't pay themselves.
16
I called my Mom twice last week, my kids at college three times, work every day on off hours, my mechanic twice, dentist once, etc. Go ahead and tally those calls to monitor phone traffic patterns. No one is listening in, but whatever.
What does everyone have to hide??? that's so very private that phone traffic patterns can't be recorded.
What does everyone have to hide??? that's so very private that phone traffic patterns can't be recorded.
1
Are you one of the people who is constantly complaining about how government imposes upon citizens? Or is it only when the imposition is between a woman and her doctor or between LGBT people and the Constitution?
Read the Constitution, because you clearly have NO idea what's in it and what its purpose is.
Read the Constitution, because you clearly have NO idea what's in it and what its purpose is.
8
This is not about "phone traffic patterns", don't kid yourself... Our political and many other opinions need protecting, without that protection our system will not work. If we allow government to snoop broadly we will surrender that.
If we are going to police the world it would be better if we got out of the car and learned the neighborhood first hand.
4
“these tools are important to American lives.”
Yes - their continued presence is a threat to our democracy, one that has not uncovered any terror plot.
Please run out the clock, let 215 expire and do not pass the not much better misnamed "Freedom Act."
A much better use of the Senate's time would be passing a motion to honor Snowden.
Yes - their continued presence is a threat to our democracy, one that has not uncovered any terror plot.
Please run out the clock, let 215 expire and do not pass the not much better misnamed "Freedom Act."
A much better use of the Senate's time would be passing a motion to honor Snowden.
58
They are important to American lives all right. They give a small number of people a great deal of money.
Their existence also give a large number of politicians another way to engender fear and scoff up votes.
Their existence also give a large number of politicians another way to engender fear and scoff up votes.
3
Rand Paul the only civil rights champion left in America. Maybe we can use our phones again, because of him alone. The rest of the senate is consumed with fear of the bogyman.
29
While I am delighted that Rand Paul is blocking this disgusting growth on the Constitution, something that both the administration and the Senate pretend protects us from terrorists, this is the only thing Mr. Paul does that is not totally wack.
His economics are based on delusional fantasies. See http://www.salon.com/2010/05/21/libertarianism_who_needs_it/
His economics are based on delusional fantasies. See http://www.salon.com/2010/05/21/libertarianism_who_needs_it/
6
Agreed: I oppose Rand Paul, too, for several reasons -- I am online here because he seems to be the only leader we have who is in touch with us on this surveillance-issue, about which most Americans feel very strongly -- why don't our other leaders understand this, is Rand Paul really the only one?
I am being asked to trust the surveillance as needed for protection, but have not been presented with evidence of such. I will not accept that the mass intrusions of data (having an unknown quality at that!) are for my own good. No more business as usual.
38
Given Director of National Intelligence James Clapper's record of lying to Congress, it's surprising that any legislators take the administration's entreaties seriously.
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Unfortunately, based on Congress's record, there is nothing surprising about its--or the administration's--behavior.
It looks like the executive branch was generally OK with Mr. Clapper's statements in that there seems to be no obvious actions to the contrary.
1
Internet tracking of web surfing is a much greater invasion of privacy, if we're all so very private. Suddenly this week I get pop-up adds for running shoes and for Bahamas cruises, both topics I surfed last week.
Unlike phone traffic monitoring which does not listen to content of calls, this web monitoring reads and responds to the content of my browsing. I don't care, but to some this may be a privacy invasion worthy of congressional debate?
Unlike phone traffic monitoring which does not listen to content of calls, this web monitoring reads and responds to the content of my browsing. I don't care, but to some this may be a privacy invasion worthy of congressional debate?
14
you greatly misunderstand the depth and breadth of what the fed govt collects within the USA. Go to UK Guardian and read more.
6
While your ISP is able to keep records of your browsing, most ISPs will not disseminate that history to third parties, except by specific request of law enforcement or the courts.
You, however, have all of the tools you need at your immediate disposal to prevent third parties from following you around the Web. You have the ability to block advertisements, cookies, trackers, beacons, widgets, and all manner of intrusive scripts from being placed on your computer by individual Web sites, advertisers, and big data collection firms.
You can't prevent the government from accessing your computer through back doors, but you most certainly can stop 99.99% of the other spies from monitoring your browsing at absolutely no cost to you.
You, however, have all of the tools you need at your immediate disposal to prevent third parties from following you around the Web. You have the ability to block advertisements, cookies, trackers, beacons, widgets, and all manner of intrusive scripts from being placed on your computer by individual Web sites, advertisers, and big data collection firms.
You can't prevent the government from accessing your computer through back doors, but you most certainly can stop 99.99% of the other spies from monitoring your browsing at absolutely no cost to you.
3
Robert writes: "Unlike phone traffic monitoring which does not listen to content of calls,"
Seriously? You believe that?
The claim that ONLY "metadata" is collected is an out-and-out lie. The NSA collects and searches the contents of ALL electronic communications, not just telephone calls.
Seriously? You believe that?
The claim that ONLY "metadata" is collected is an out-and-out lie. The NSA collects and searches the contents of ALL electronic communications, not just telephone calls.
3
I'm quite liberal on social matters, but I believe strongly in individual rights and protections. As surprising as it is to me, Rand Paul is my man of the moment. We're on the same side and he's acting like a great Senator, in my opinon.
162
"I'm quite liberal on social matters, but I believe strongly in individual rights and protections." Why do you think these are incompatible notions?
6
He probably thinks so because everything else that Paul advocates is horrific and delusional.
See http://www.salon.com/2010/05/21/libertarianism_who_needs_it/
See http://www.salon.com/2010/05/21/libertarianism_who_needs_it/
3
I'll agree with your opinion that he is a great Senator when he applies the same zeal to protection of a woman's right to privacy and self determination. He falls far short now.
2
On a political level, the surveillance controversy is forcing Republicans to pick a 2016 theme: to be the party against government encroachment, or of national security at all costs. The fact that a candidate so unlikely as Rand Paul has struck a chord across the spectrum with his defense of civil liberties shows that citizens seek a champion of their rights.
341
No it doesnt show that at all: it shows Rand running for president and picking a topic that makes his stand out from the rest. Showmanship with a tad of ego is what it shows.
Hello K Henderson,
Well, my statement came from seeing Senator Paul's message against privacy intrusions actually resonate with liberals, too. Other Republicans like Rick Santorum and Michelle Bachmann are showmen with a tad of ego, also with topics that stand out, but never did or will gain traction as Rand Paul is. Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. Best regards.
Well, my statement came from seeing Senator Paul's message against privacy intrusions actually resonate with liberals, too. Other Republicans like Rick Santorum and Michelle Bachmann are showmen with a tad of ego, also with topics that stand out, but never did or will gain traction as Rand Paul is. Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. Best regards.
1
Even Paul doesn't care about government intrusion when it's a woman's uterus.
So much for the GOP being against "government encroachment'.
They're only against it when it suits them.
So much for the GOP being against "government encroachment'.
They're only against it when it suits them.
6
Thank God for the courage and patriotism of Mr. Snowden.
I wish the 57 (s)enators who voted to support those who trash the Constitution would remember their oaths of office to support and defend it against even domestic enemies!
I wish the 57 (s)enators who voted to support those who trash the Constitution would remember their oaths of office to support and defend it against even domestic enemies!
259
If any demonstrable proof that the constant wiretapping of US citizens has thwarted pending (or 'actual' in-depth planning) of an actual terrorist plot were presented, that would be one thing. But the approach of total secrecy and the 'trust us' attitude of our elected officials makes this hard to support.
If this approach is critical to national defense (as claimed), then some evidence of it could be presented to the people on whom they expect this trust. And 'some evidence' does not mean giving away the ability (technical or otherwise) to continue the practice. Our government has done this on more than once occasion; for example, twice at the UN, once during the Cuban Missile Crises and again prior to invading Iraq.
If this approach is critical to national defense (as claimed), then some evidence of it could be presented to the people on whom they expect this trust. And 'some evidence' does not mean giving away the ability (technical or otherwise) to continue the practice. Our government has done this on more than once occasion; for example, twice at the UN, once during the Cuban Missile Crises and again prior to invading Iraq.
22
Well the "evidence" to invade Iraq was all lies, so we are best off not trusting the government at all. In fact, in my whole life the only consistency I have noticed about our government is that it always seems to lie to us. Always.
3
Dear Senate & Pres. Obama: How about having a Sunday night session on an issue or two that really effects Americans. You know. Like deteriorating infrastructure, increasing the minimum wage, single payer healthcare, debt free higher education.
Let the Patriot Act expire!
Let the Patriot Act expire!
628
That affects Americans too!
These so-called representatives are so out of touch, many bought and paid for by 1% billionaires. Time for the people to take back our government; Obama too is out of the loop on this.
8
Amen, Scott. The terrorists have won a few with the insanity in our government after 9/11. Fear and paranoia to control the masses. Color red today?
2
Senators Hatfiled and McCoy from Kentucky exemplify perfectly the Hillbillyization of the US Congress.
80
That's a bigoted comment.
8
… and effete coastal liberals wonder why they can't get the benighted white working class voters of Flyover County to vote for them…...
4
Let's see. Republicans have majorities in both chambers. The deadline is Sunday at midnight to pass an amended NSA law. Monday is June 1, 6 1/2 months after the GOP took the Senate. New Majority leader Mitch McConnell, who so lusted for the job, finds that his empty promises to "govern responsibly" have been torpedoed by his own side. For once, House Speaker John Boehner is cooling his heels while his friend Mitch plays the fool. And, as has become the GOP's way, nothing gets done. On Monday, a failure will be laid on the doorstep of the White House. Both McConnell and Boehner will blame the president.
174
If the so-called PATRIOT Act expires, that will be a triumph of the US Constitution over criminal behavior by our government--NOT a failure.
4
Fascinating. Not one word about Obama's spying on all of us as well as on the leaders of Germany and Brazil. And not one word about that, ahem, Republican, Rand Paul who is standing in Obama's way.
It seems anything whatever can be turned into an anti-Republican screed. I congratulate you on your ingenuity.
It seems anything whatever can be turned into an anti-Republican screed. I congratulate you on your ingenuity.
3
How about blaming the poorly written, rushed law that was foisted upon a frightened public. We simply are not frightened enough any more.
1
Thank you, Rand Paul.
206
Thank you, Edward Snowden.
16
It's so odd that THIS awakens in our leaders a sense of urgency. Working on a Sunday tells the tale. If only they felt the same passion about our crumbling bridges, or decaying environment.
554
David,
this is all about Rand Paul manipulating for attention to win presidency. You're right, if our congress really cared about our welfare, they would be working Sunday's to focus on issues you brought up.
this is all about Rand Paul manipulating for attention to win presidency. You're right, if our congress really cared about our welfare, they would be working Sunday's to focus on issues you brought up.
6
The surveillance issue is one on which Rand Paul has been consistent. I don't agree with him on other things, but to me government surveillance is an issue more important than most others. DC appears not to understand this. Wouldn't you put your civil liberties before your bridges?
There are more important things happening right now. Stop the drama, extend it for 30 days and get your head’s right. The Vice President has just lost his dear, sweet son.
Rand Paul is a narcissist.
Rand Paul is a narcissist.
17
Sorry, but such an obvious non sequitur doesn't suffice to make me want to give up an essential freedom.
17
Get your heads right and stop spying on Americans. To advocate for continued illegal government activities is the result of buying into silly propaganda.
Get your head right please, before it's too late.
If we destroy Liberty in the hope of being secure, Americans lose, terrorists win, the Corporate military industrial complex wins.
Get your head right please, before it's too late.
If we destroy Liberty in the hope of being secure, Americans lose, terrorists win, the Corporate military industrial complex wins.
19
Can’t have it both ways. So you’ll be good if something happens that could have been prevented by current methods?
When it comes down to, do I care more about my privacy or my family’s ability to continue living bc so far so good, I choose the latter.
It’s good enough and an honor to just be alive and have the freedoms we have.
When it comes down to, do I care more about my privacy or my family’s ability to continue living bc so far so good, I choose the latter.
It’s good enough and an honor to just be alive and have the freedoms we have.
1
Once again, we see the underlying Libertarianism of of the many liberals. The clear attitude here is just to keep the Government out of each individual's life.
11
This resemblance of liberalism and libertarianism is superficial.
Liberals don't object to the government getting involved in people's lives, and regulating important aspects of our lives. Liberals just want government to get involved in ways they believe do good things for people, especially for the more vulnerable and needy among us.
Liberals don't want to government to get involved in ways that have the potential to do bad things - in this instance, by keeping track of who communicates with whom - no matter who, no matter why, no matter whether entirely innocent and unobjectionable. That kind of surveillance carries the potential to inhibit free communication among us all, and lead to persecution and dictatorship.
Liberals don't object to the government getting involved in people's lives, and regulating important aspects of our lives. Liberals just want government to get involved in ways they believe do good things for people, especially for the more vulnerable and needy among us.
Liberals don't want to government to get involved in ways that have the potential to do bad things - in this instance, by keeping track of who communicates with whom - no matter who, no matter why, no matter whether entirely innocent and unobjectionable. That kind of surveillance carries the potential to inhibit free communication among us all, and lead to persecution and dictatorship.
13
I would agree with you if you substituted "politicians" for "liberals". Doesn't abortion fall into the category of unwarranted government intrusion into personal lives?
5
Once again, we see the underlying liberalism in many Libertarians. Now if they could only agree to let women control their own bodies, we might see a new alliance at least on controlling the surveillance state and military industrial complex.
1
Bulk data collection circumvents due process of the law and is a costly way of finding a needle in a haystack. The point is not to let critical intelligence to go dark, but to make it see better in the dark.
90
Congress' inability to fix this is mond boggling, In a few months we will have the next Benghazi, Ft. Hood, or whatever, and there will be hearings to make the Administration explain how it failed to thwart that. Of course, the Republicans will not blame their own disfunction for any lapses in failing to monitor phone traffic that would have led to something being prevented or someone being caught after the fact. All this too because of a twenty something year old who now lives in and extolls the virtues of a country dedicated to the daily violation of every single one of its citizens' civil rights.
9
"extolls the virtues"?? source please.
2
Right back at you. http://www.nationaljournal.com/tech/edward-snowden-living-in-russia-is-g...
3
Um, we experienced Benghazi, Ft Hood and the Boston marathon bombing while we had full use of the so-called Patriot Act. What could make anyone think its continued violations of the 4th amendment could prevent the next and inevitable attack of this sort?
3
I just love the nerve of the antonymic name for the "PATRIOT" Act's successor, the "Freedom" Act, as in "freedom is slavery" from 1984.
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Well said!
Remember the similarly Orwellian "Freedom Fries"?
And all along, it's freedom itself that's toast!
Remember the similarly Orwellian "Freedom Fries"?
And all along, it's freedom itself that's toast!
1
Let it expire. The United States of America doesn't need mass surveillance, it's against everything we're supposed to stand for. The proper authorities simply need probable cause to get a warrant and they can get whatever info they require.
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I agree. Furthermore, NYTimes claim they don't know how meta data can be used to harm Americans. Violation of privacy is the only extent of the harm that can be achieved, so they think. I think NYTimes is lying. With the phone records the NSA can create a database of who knows who intimately. This can create a database of every social circle of influence on the planet. They got to the guy who knows the guy. You can profile any guy and leverage influence by exchaning favors. This is an artificial means to circumvent the normal way to gain cooperation in humanity that is to invest time to gaining trust. But with phone records, you alway know who the subject knows intimately.
3
"The terrorists are falling. The terrorists are falling."
Chicken Little, 2015.
Chicken Little, 2015.
44