I as a Republican am very disappointed in many of those Republicans i the Senate who do not see the un-American quality to spying and collecting US citizen's communications. I am especially angry at my own Senator, Richard Burr who is head of the committee on this.
6
Does anyone think because certain provisions of the Patriot Act have expired that the NSA will simply shut off the switch to bulk data collecting? If they do have them contact me I have a bridge that connects Brooklyn and Manhattan for sale cheap.
5
I stand with Rand, Lee, Amash and others on this. I wish there were more instances of the GOP standing up to the Obama Regime. Since January, the GOP establishment ruling elites have given Obama everything he has wanted...and then some.
The metadata program did not stop the Tsarnaev brothers in Boston, did it?
The metadata program did not stop the Tsarnaev brothers in Boston, did it?
5
Evil is not done by bad people seeking aggrement for a common goal. Evil is much better served by convincing good people to suspend their better judgements to achieve temporary goals that seems important at the time.
This is the way people are conquered. Not from without but from within, when basic long standing principles of duty, trust and honor and most importantly courage are put aside because of the shouting of a few so called "experts".
A favorite tool of these experts is the instilling of fear into decision makers that they alone will be responsible for the calamities that will surely result from their reluctance to throw away the basic principles that have guided this nation for almost 300 years.
What is required is courage. Courage in the knowledge that we are fully capable and able to meet the disasters that are presented to us as unavoidable if we do not follow a preset path by letting go of all basic human rights.
We have come too far, suffered too much, accomplished too much to give away the rights of our people that have been hard won from the battlefields of Lexington to Normandy to appease self appointed experts in the next tragedy to befall us.
There is no substitute for courage to face down the angry stupid devoted fools that are so driven their own fear and panic that they alone know what is best for all of us.
We are in charge of our futures.
This is the way people are conquered. Not from without but from within, when basic long standing principles of duty, trust and honor and most importantly courage are put aside because of the shouting of a few so called "experts".
A favorite tool of these experts is the instilling of fear into decision makers that they alone will be responsible for the calamities that will surely result from their reluctance to throw away the basic principles that have guided this nation for almost 300 years.
What is required is courage. Courage in the knowledge that we are fully capable and able to meet the disasters that are presented to us as unavoidable if we do not follow a preset path by letting go of all basic human rights.
We have come too far, suffered too much, accomplished too much to give away the rights of our people that have been hard won from the battlefields of Lexington to Normandy to appease self appointed experts in the next tragedy to befall us.
There is no substitute for courage to face down the angry stupid devoted fools that are so driven their own fear and panic that they alone know what is best for all of us.
We are in charge of our futures.
7
The Patriot Act is decidedly unpatriotic. It goes against everything that America stands for. The proof is that nobody is calling Rand Paul unpatriotic because everybody knows deep within their hearts that the Patriot Act is wrong. Let it die.
10
Now let's have a similar debate about Google et al.
4
Think about it. Considering context, Is it the actual collection of phone data by our government that's a genuine threat to us? If so what might our government do with that data to personally harm us. Or is it more the idea of that that's a concern of those like Paul and others who are against it. In other words, what's the worst thing that might happen if our government continues to collect and store phone data? What's the worst that might happen if they don't? Why would it be better if storage of telephone records is in the hands of the phone companies rather than our government? It's not unusual for human reactions to spontaneously lean toward the emotional component of something, coming from the gut, rather than from well thought out considerations of real consequences.
4
The Patriot act makes really no sense. The only purpose of it is to declassify the fact that the USA is spying not only after some countries and terrorists but also after its own citizens.
NSA has a plenty of spying programs such as ICREACH, PRISM, XKeyscore etc,
the NSA has created an international organization to control the foreign affairs of the partner countries and the opposition.
To be more specific, for example ICREACH is a data base designed to systematize the info about millions of foreigners, living in the USA and its citizens. It archives the info about the phone calls, SMS, GPS tracking by a smart phone, personal connections, religious beliefs and other personal info about millions of Americans and residents.
Do you still believe in a possibility of a private life of yours?
NSA has a plenty of spying programs such as ICREACH, PRISM, XKeyscore etc,
the NSA has created an international organization to control the foreign affairs of the partner countries and the opposition.
To be more specific, for example ICREACH is a data base designed to systematize the info about millions of foreigners, living in the USA and its citizens. It archives the info about the phone calls, SMS, GPS tracking by a smart phone, personal connections, religious beliefs and other personal info about millions of Americans and residents.
Do you still believe in a possibility of a private life of yours?
1
The real lesson here is that republicans can't govern.
4
Recently just got back from China. This country being label as Commi , true Facebook or Gmail none of it is working but at least they don't put me into a X-ray scanner everytime I goes to the airport....
2
As an average citizen who has absolutely nothing to hide, I do not understand the furor generated by this issue. There are lots of bad people who want to harm the citizens of America and if this NSA program can help protect us, I say continue the program. If some safeguards are needed, fine. Put them in there. Just don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Sen. Paul is wrong on this, in my opinion.
3
I have reached the age when my children and grandchildren are no longer interested in what I have to say. So I was thrilled to think that someone from the government was listening in. I only wish they would talk back so we could talk about football.
9
What's with naming all these nefarious Acts with pleasant and flattering sounding names?
USA Patriot Act, an act that suspends due process and allows for torture.
USA Freedom Act, an act that implements Orwellian style surveillance.
Will the next Act that suspends Congress and institutes martial law be entitled the Fuzzy Kittens Act?
USA Patriot Act, an act that suspends due process and allows for torture.
USA Freedom Act, an act that implements Orwellian style surveillance.
Will the next Act that suspends Congress and institutes martial law be entitled the Fuzzy Kittens Act?
8
It is galling to hear McCain lambaste Sen. Paul as the worst candidate the GOP could put forward when he and his abysmally poor choice for a running mate are the reason Obama was elected in the first place. Sen. Paul is the only one standing up for true constitutional liberties, regardless of what the "Manchurian candidate" has to say about him.
4
If you really want to see Americans consent willingly to curtailing their liberty, just wait for the aftermath of any future mass death terrorist attack on this nation.
The nation will convulse.
The demagoguery, xenophobia, hysteria and calls for tighter security and surveillance will make your head spin.
Politicians will milk the moment, fingers will be pointed and those under suspicion will expand. The masses happily, even gratefully consent to their liberties being compromised in the name of safety. I don't doubt this for a second.
Let's have balance in our present struggle to head off crazy people intent on harm. And I'll add the present threat will subside at some point - the world moves on.
For now, some amount of reasonable monitoring of the most fringe elements in an effort to head off a culture-altering attack might just save us from even worse knee-jerk acceptance of limits on our freedom.
Surveillance may infringe on some part of our freedom but allowing a bad attack would be much worse.
The nation will convulse.
The demagoguery, xenophobia, hysteria and calls for tighter security and surveillance will make your head spin.
Politicians will milk the moment, fingers will be pointed and those under suspicion will expand. The masses happily, even gratefully consent to their liberties being compromised in the name of safety. I don't doubt this for a second.
Let's have balance in our present struggle to head off crazy people intent on harm. And I'll add the present threat will subside at some point - the world moves on.
For now, some amount of reasonable monitoring of the most fringe elements in an effort to head off a culture-altering attack might just save us from even worse knee-jerk acceptance of limits on our freedom.
Surveillance may infringe on some part of our freedom but allowing a bad attack would be much worse.
3
I think it's a disgrace that the Democratic Party is not "out in front" on this issue and seriously working on a solution that introduces oversight by civilians of such extraordinary surveillance practices. The so-called "Freedom" Act will result in a dangerous concentration of power in the hands of individuals who might wield the info gathered under it for either personal gain or political agenda. We need to enlist a rotating panel of vetted civilian observers who can confidentially report back to Congress and the courts when they see a problematic violation of the principles of 1) a presumption of innocence for Americans, and 2) a lack of accountability to all Americans, not just an administration, by law enforcement wielding such extraordinary powers.
The position of the administration and many in Congress (including many Republicans) on this legislation is one of cowardice and shows an overarching concern for their political longevity to the detriment of all our civil liberties. They are convinced that the political victor after a terrorist strike will be the one who supported the suppression of civil liberties.That attitude is telling as to most of Congress's conviction that Americans don't give a care about civil liberties.
Will Americans now finally realize that sacrificing their due process is not going to make them any safer?
The position of the administration and many in Congress (including many Republicans) on this legislation is one of cowardice and shows an overarching concern for their political longevity to the detriment of all our civil liberties. They are convinced that the political victor after a terrorist strike will be the one who supported the suppression of civil liberties.That attitude is telling as to most of Congress's conviction that Americans don't give a care about civil liberties.
Will Americans now finally realize that sacrificing their due process is not going to make them any safer?
4
The "Patriot Act" was a misnamed, knee-jerk, cynical and an-American assault on the U.S. Constitution, exactly what Osama bin Laden hoped for. Any and all who approved it should be ashamed of themselves. Hurrah for Rand Paul for standing up for true American principles. And I'm the hardest of hard core liberals. I feel completely betrayed by the Obama Administration on this one.
4
The NSA is a secret agency with a secret program run by a secret court with a secret budget. I don't see how anyone could accuse Rand Paul of running a "campaign of misinformation", when we manage our democracy with no information.
Why don't I believe the NSA has turned off their call logging. Illegal spying and lying to congress seems to be a tradition.
Why don't I believe the NSA has turned off their call logging. Illegal spying and lying to congress seems to be a tradition.
8
As this debate proves, dismantling the national security state is near impossible. The Soviets, Saddam, Al Qaeda, North Korea. Thank God ISIS now poses an existential threat or else there could be cuts in the Defense or CIA budget. Thank God there has always been some country or group for us to deathly fear (whether real, imagined or fabricated).
3
The pace of innovation in cyberspace far exceeds our legislators' abilities to write or re-write laws which provide the legal basis for some intelligence gathering activities. I'm not concerned about letting down the guard from this perspective, and I have faith in the vast majority of our sworn intelligence professionals doing the right thing. I have some experience with them from my 24 years in the military. System's and procedural changes sometimes pre-date the laws that make them legal, when not doing so puts the infrastructure at unacceptable risk. However, I do not have the same confidence in our congress and executive branch, and I'm quickly losing confidence in the judicial as well. Many or most of those clowns need to be tossed out and replaced with people who 1) know a bit of science, and 2) aren't in it for the money and power. Our electorate doesn't get this, however, and takes the spoon-fed ideologies at face value instead of thinking for themselves and doing a bit of research. That's why so many incumbents are re-elected. One comment mentioned "we didn't ask for this cyberwar", which may be true, but we did invent (with physics research) the integrated circuit (1972), and later the internet (DARPA). We dominated the industry during the 70's and 80's in the run-up to the modern internet, which blew everything wide open. Complete privacy has been dead for decades (at least). We now argue over the DEGREE of privacy invasion, not the fact of it.
3
I think the issue here is not so much that data collection is going on. Most people recognize that national security may require some capacity by intelligence agencies to monitor incoming and outgoing telephone and email communication in order to detect threats. Instead, the issue seems to me to be one of accountability. The FISA court is not subject to enough public scrutiny, it may not be applying applicable constitutional law precedent in a particularly consistent manner, and the public is only faintly aware, if at all, of its existence, let alone the identity or qualifications of its judges.
Congress should mandate that the FISA court should have to provide for a reasonable level of "sunshine" operation. Sure, some requests for surveillance have to involve secrecy. But that's not different in concept than situations where prosecutors or police seek warrants in run-of-the-mill criminal cases but need to make the request "in camera." The warrants are available later for public review because they are in the police record or in the court record.
The other issue that I think is not focused on enough is the question of clear limits to the use of surveillance techniques. Congress should not permit limitless surveillance. Instead, there should be a clear requirement, set forth in the statute, of some reasonable basis for individualized suspicion. Probable cause is too much to ask, but there must be a less demanding standard that still provides some privacy protection.
Congress should mandate that the FISA court should have to provide for a reasonable level of "sunshine" operation. Sure, some requests for surveillance have to involve secrecy. But that's not different in concept than situations where prosecutors or police seek warrants in run-of-the-mill criminal cases but need to make the request "in camera." The warrants are available later for public review because they are in the police record or in the court record.
The other issue that I think is not focused on enough is the question of clear limits to the use of surveillance techniques. Congress should not permit limitless surveillance. Instead, there should be a clear requirement, set forth in the statute, of some reasonable basis for individualized suspicion. Probable cause is too much to ask, but there must be a less demanding standard that still provides some privacy protection.
1
The legislation wouldn't put "limits" on the surveillance state as the Times' headline suggests, but salvage it. Plain English would not describe the resuscitation of an expired law that granted increased powers to the state to be an action that "limited" state power, regardless of the changes made to that expired law.
If a doctor managed to revive a patient who was clinically dead, but thereafter the patient had to live a life confined to a wheelchair, no one would say that the doctor "limited" the patient's mobility. The doctor brought an otherwise dead person back to life! Similarly with what the Senate is considering doing with the expired surveillance program.
Please lose the misleading language, New York Times.
If a doctor managed to revive a patient who was clinically dead, but thereafter the patient had to live a life confined to a wheelchair, no one would say that the doctor "limited" the patient's mobility. The doctor brought an otherwise dead person back to life! Similarly with what the Senate is considering doing with the expired surveillance program.
Please lose the misleading language, New York Times.
6
As a nation we aren't frightened enough any more. If the fear mongers want to scare us into giving up more of our freedoms they're going to have to concoct another 9-11.
12
I am so glad some Republicans have taken a patriotic stand on a topic of substance and importance. I had almost lost hope.
6
Unfortunately, as many have predicted, he will not come within a mile of the Republican nomination due to cannibalism of hawks on the right. Government surveillance may provide an additional layer for intelligence, but how much of personal liberties should we surrender before our illusion of freedom becomes more farcical? This is a tough decision. Mr Rand Paul, if anything, has shown a lot of courage sticking to core libertarian principle.
5
If you watched a recent episode of PBS Frontline called "American Terrorist", you know all our intelligence agencies are pretty much useless, sucking 100s of billions with no real result.
8
The majority leader "miscalculated" again? So has the Speaker, more than once. Is this party ready to govern?
2
Rand Paul is an American Hero - standing for reason and freedom and not the perpetuated fear mongering that persists. Reminds me of a famous quote "Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself". McConnell and the Republicans want Big Brother NSA to continue forever and play the fear card to the American people. Thank You Edward Snowden, Thank You Rand Paul, sometimes it takes brave individuals of principal to stand for what is a normal and basic human right - the right to privacy.
14
Why is it you never hear of the senate staying late to debate or vote on issues that so many American people are passionate about ie. climate change, healthcare, poverty, iRS corruption? Instead, when a bill giving the government copious amounts of unchecked power is at risk of lapsing the senate decides to work with the utmost diligence. Thank you Sen. Rand Paul for standing up for the freedom and privacy of the American people.
8
I think Rand Paul would be a terrible President, but on this issue, we are in full agreement. The Patriot Act is un-American and wrong. It should have never been passed.
Thank you Senator Paul.
Thank you Senator Paul.
8
Defund the NSA.
They are not working for the American people.
They are not working for the American people.
7
I voted for Obama, twice. I was planning to vote for whoever the Democrats run in 2016. But Rand Paul, if he runs, has my vote. He spoke truth to power over this last week. The Republican Hawks, like John McCain, Lindsey Graham and the the Bush bunch, not only created the void that allowed ISIS and other terrorist groups to flourish, but also they have armed them as well. Mr. Paul, rightly said that we have over-reacted to the terrorist threat. After 9/11, we gave Al Qaeda a victory far greater than they anticipated with the adoption of the Patriot Act. And we are less safe for it. Color-coded terror alerts and duct tape for our windows made us behave like sheep. As it was intended to do. Just look at us at the airport, standing in line like Russians at a bakery and removing our shoes for God's sake! Doesn't that embarrass anyone else? It's a reminder, more than any other, that we lost our way of life after 9/11. Rand Paul is the only person in Washington to recognize this. Voting for anyone else will be business as usual.
10
There are pros and CNN of the Patriot Act, like many other legislation. That the elected congress-members cannot figure out how to sit and craft a compromise when our personal safety is involved is due to the immature influence of Libertarians and tea partners who would be happy to destroy the social contract. Scary times and I sometimes think these immature cry babies are as bad as those who want to do us in.
The NSA stopped collecting the affected data at 12:01 a.m. Monday. Would this short lapse make the world insecure? Hardly! There's still snooping conducted behind this frenzy in the Congress! The US will never wean itself off its habits.
The "Patriot Act" will be replaced by the White-House backed "Freedom Act", which is just old wine in a new bottle!
The "Patriot Act" will be replaced by the White-House backed "Freedom Act", which is just old wine in a new bottle!
8
The Congress stole our vital freedoms with the 2001 "Patriot Act" and now they want us to believe they are giving us freedom with the "Freedom Act" after they were exposed by Snowden. Indeed, it's all an "Act".
11
Senators did the right thing, great day for America, democracy and fundamental rights.
1
This vote is such a joke. Let's see NSA broke the law and continues to do so, they set people up to bust here in the USA but can't come up with one person busted outside the US with this system. Do you really still believe??? . They're not going to stop, this is about control, power and greed. Some of you need to wake up.
7
So what I see is that every turn, Democrats are forcing the issue and trying to do backroom deals to get the spying program reinstated. It looks like they need this program for something, wonder what that is? Could it be that they use the NSA program to spy on political opponents? Could it be that they would be at a loss if they didn't have that tool and hand to defeat the opposition by knowing what they're talking about, what they're saying, what they're thinking, where they are, what they're doing? Oh I understand, this has nothing to do with spying, terrorism, or anything other than politics. We don't need the NSA, we don't need spies spying on us, and we don't need to live in 1984.
2
Simon Black very recently stated the following:
"Unfortunately most people in the West are caged birds. It might be a nice cage with plenty of Starbucks and Bed, Bath, and Beyond megastores. But it’s a cage… filled with clueless birds chirping away about how free they are."
It's quite sad to read so many of these comments, where people still believe our government has only a pure, noble interest in keeping us safe and "free". It only proves how effective and complete the propaganda machine is at convincing us that "they hate us for our freedoms", and we must kill them before they kill us. We are so afraid of the boogie-man terrorists, that we fail to see who the real terrorists are - those in power, who want to remain power, and will continue to expand their power and control over us at any cost.
From our hero and patriot Edward Snowden: "Arguing that you don’t care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don’t care about free speech because you have nothing to say."
"Unfortunately most people in the West are caged birds. It might be a nice cage with plenty of Starbucks and Bed, Bath, and Beyond megastores. But it’s a cage… filled with clueless birds chirping away about how free they are."
It's quite sad to read so many of these comments, where people still believe our government has only a pure, noble interest in keeping us safe and "free". It only proves how effective and complete the propaganda machine is at convincing us that "they hate us for our freedoms", and we must kill them before they kill us. We are so afraid of the boogie-man terrorists, that we fail to see who the real terrorists are - those in power, who want to remain power, and will continue to expand their power and control over us at any cost.
From our hero and patriot Edward Snowden: "Arguing that you don’t care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don’t care about free speech because you have nothing to say."
13
Mitch and Rand: Now will you keep your 'surveillance' out of our bedrooms, women's right to choose, and relationship choices? Thanks!
4
Do FBI and NSA agents act with human curiosity when they wiretap or place under surveillance suspects without a court warrant in order to obtain information to obtain one? As local police often do? Often the surveillance information leads nowhere, merely "filed." But government invasion of privacy has occurred, a violation of our 4th Amendment protection from unlawful search and seizure. Anyone who doubts this occurs ought to read the 2nd District Court ruling and comments from the bench in the case of the Drimals last month suing 16 FBI agents accused of violating the so-called "2-minute" listening rule in surveillance. https://ecf.ctd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public.doc?2012cv0717-31 The Judges agreed that the FBI agents acted unprofessionally in jokes disseminated among the bureau about the Drimal intimate marital conversations.
2
Finally – some pushback, after all the fear-mongering of the last 14 years (What color is the "threat level", Kenneth?"
How about this: let's starve the military-industrial-surveillance complex back to a healthy size. And let's spend the savings on projects which actually help Americans, not on these drama queen "terrorism experts".
How about this: let's starve the military-industrial-surveillance complex back to a healthy size. And let's spend the savings on projects which actually help Americans, not on these drama queen "terrorism experts".
10
It's about time. Now bring Snowden home and give him the Freedom Medal. This is America, not North Korea.
6
Let it expire. And while your at it repeal the patriot Act and terminate Homeland Security.
4
I'd say a good part of the problem in getting somewhere with this act is the way the Senate manages to gum up anything it does with procedural votes and cloture rules and on and on. Time to reorganize that body along the lines of getting things done.
Who, exactly, has been harmed by the surveillance?
2
Liberty.
9
Hmmm....America suddenly feels better against my skin! We're tired of war, we're tired of spy vs spy, the government knows what color of underwear I'm currently wearing. Our enemies still hate us & there are days I understand why.
9-11 is almost 14 years ago, never forget but it's way past time we move on. The way to peace isn't war, isn't harsh treatment, isn't Gitmo, isn't putting US troops in every nook & cranny around the world.
Bring our troops home, spend the war money on infrastructure, do some nation building IN the USA. We can go back to the carefree days of Lassie pulling Timmy out of the well.
We need to tamp down religion, politicians, put truth into Free Trade, make NAFTA a good deal for someone other than the Oligarchs. Retire the old dinosaurs out of Congress. Build a fence around Sen. Tom Cotton, Sen. Ted Cruz & a host of others who ruin the quality of life around the planet while stuffing more cash in their pockets while only serving the 1%.
Take a breath & DO BETTER! I'm sick of Amerika & long for America. The words Patriot Act & Homeland Security should be relegated to history. This is China's century & we can't do a thing about it...we aren't Number 1 anymore & good! We better learn to be a great Number 2 & be exceptionally good at liking it!.
9-11 is almost 14 years ago, never forget but it's way past time we move on. The way to peace isn't war, isn't harsh treatment, isn't Gitmo, isn't putting US troops in every nook & cranny around the world.
Bring our troops home, spend the war money on infrastructure, do some nation building IN the USA. We can go back to the carefree days of Lassie pulling Timmy out of the well.
We need to tamp down religion, politicians, put truth into Free Trade, make NAFTA a good deal for someone other than the Oligarchs. Retire the old dinosaurs out of Congress. Build a fence around Sen. Tom Cotton, Sen. Ted Cruz & a host of others who ruin the quality of life around the planet while stuffing more cash in their pockets while only serving the 1%.
Take a breath & DO BETTER! I'm sick of Amerika & long for America. The words Patriot Act & Homeland Security should be relegated to history. This is China's century & we can't do a thing about it...we aren't Number 1 anymore & good! We better learn to be a great Number 2 & be exceptionally good at liking it!.
2
"never forget but it's way past time we move on." Never move on from a false flag until it's identified.
1
Better that Rand Paul raise campaign funds for himself, as some Senators have accused him of doing, than many of these same Senators - who mostly vote to shove money to the defense contractors to wage wars all over the world in the name of protecting OUR Freedom, while spreading chaos in other parts of the world which would call for MORE spending of US TAXPAYER money to bring us even more "freedom".
1
Rand Paul for prez 2016 !
And give Snowden a welcome back ticker tape parade on B'way ! The guy deserves it.
And give Snowden a welcome back ticker tape parade on B'way ! The guy deserves it.
2
Even without compromising the national security, ways could be found to rework the Patriot Act while also making the state surveillance less intrusive, provided national security issue is depoliticised and viewed genuinely a national concern.
1
"He asked senators to consider a two-week continuation of the federal authority to track a “lone wolf” terrorism suspect not connected to a state sponsor and to conduct “roving” surveillance of a suspect, rather than of a phone number alone, to combat terrorists who frequently discard cellphones."
Does anyone really believe that if the NSA or FBI had actual knowledge of a "terrorism suspect" that they could not get a warrant to follow the "terrorism suspect" even if they discard cellphones? Of course not. What the NSA is asking for is carte blanch authority to gather ALL of the records of ALL people in the vicinity of a suspect for whom they have no probable cause to get a warrant. That means they want to go through phone records and recordings of totally bystanders (Americans) so the feds can use their ham-handed techniques to figure out if the supposed suspect is doing anything wrong. This is akin to stopping and searching all of our cars to determine whether the bank down the street was just robbed.
Does anyone really believe that if the NSA or FBI had actual knowledge of a "terrorism suspect" that they could not get a warrant to follow the "terrorism suspect" even if they discard cellphones? Of course not. What the NSA is asking for is carte blanch authority to gather ALL of the records of ALL people in the vicinity of a suspect for whom they have no probable cause to get a warrant. That means they want to go through phone records and recordings of totally bystanders (Americans) so the feds can use their ham-handed techniques to figure out if the supposed suspect is doing anything wrong. This is akin to stopping and searching all of our cars to determine whether the bank down the street was just robbed.
1
If anyone seriously believes the intel community is going to suddenly stop eavesdropping on us... you may also believe in the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, and my all time fave the troll living under the bridge...
1
It's amazing to me how many "citizens" are truly not appalled by this governmental snooping without warrant (pun intended). I guess it's illustrative of how weak we have become when it comes to our personal freedoms. I remember polls taken right after 9/11 asking if people would be willing to give up some civil rights for more safety. Well, I don't think we will get either. STOP the NSA!
1
Spying on Americans has nothing to do with Islamic militant attacks.
Look back at who were in the FBI's cross hairs when "communism" was corporate America's faux bete noir: civil rights activists, anti-war activists, labor activists -- anti-establishment thorns in the side of the American ruling class.
Fast forward to today. Who do multinational corporations' lackeys in Washington want to keep tabs on, to "defeat, and disrupt?" Anti-globalization activists, environmentalists, Occupy activists -- dissidents of all stripes supposedly protected by the 1st and 4th Amendments.
The so-called "Patriot" Act has one and only one objective: criminalize dissent. Where were Washington's spies when the Tsarnaev brothers plotted to bomb Boston? How many mass shootings have the spies prevented?
That anybody even discusses these patently authoritarian programs with a straight face amazes me. Clapper lies to Congress and goes scot free, Patraeus gives his lover state secrets and gets a slap on the wrist. But Chelsea Manning goes to jail for 35 years, Ed Snowden is holed up in Russia, Julian Assange is holed up in the Ecuadoran embassy in London.
What has the USA become? The USSR?
Look back at who were in the FBI's cross hairs when "communism" was corporate America's faux bete noir: civil rights activists, anti-war activists, labor activists -- anti-establishment thorns in the side of the American ruling class.
Fast forward to today. Who do multinational corporations' lackeys in Washington want to keep tabs on, to "defeat, and disrupt?" Anti-globalization activists, environmentalists, Occupy activists -- dissidents of all stripes supposedly protected by the 1st and 4th Amendments.
The so-called "Patriot" Act has one and only one objective: criminalize dissent. Where were Washington's spies when the Tsarnaev brothers plotted to bomb Boston? How many mass shootings have the spies prevented?
That anybody even discusses these patently authoritarian programs with a straight face amazes me. Clapper lies to Congress and goes scot free, Patraeus gives his lover state secrets and gets a slap on the wrist. But Chelsea Manning goes to jail for 35 years, Ed Snowden is holed up in Russia, Julian Assange is holed up in the Ecuadoran embassy in London.
What has the USA become? The USSR?
25
Bill Appledorf:
Spying on Americans has nothing to do with Islamic militant attacks.
****
This is simply not true. Of course it does. It is precisely this kind of talk that has made this into a political crusade versus a rational discussion about overseeing a data collection process with tremendous privacy implications.
Do you really believe they're going to catch the bad guys without looking at the broad swaths of data? The world is moving toward "big data", but those in our government responsible for national security should revert to "little data"? To which decade or century would you like to return?
Your wrath should be directed at our elected officials who have failed to keep pace and create the proper oversight, the need for which didn't even exist a few years ago, not the people trying to do the analysis.
Spying on Americans has nothing to do with Islamic militant attacks.
****
This is simply not true. Of course it does. It is precisely this kind of talk that has made this into a political crusade versus a rational discussion about overseeing a data collection process with tremendous privacy implications.
Do you really believe they're going to catch the bad guys without looking at the broad swaths of data? The world is moving toward "big data", but those in our government responsible for national security should revert to "little data"? To which decade or century would you like to return?
Your wrath should be directed at our elected officials who have failed to keep pace and create the proper oversight, the need for which didn't even exist a few years ago, not the people trying to do the analysis.
3
The security services lost the American people when it became painfully obvious that with all the billions spent and privacy lost they have never caught one terrorist through the use of these extraordinary powers. If congress eventually passes a new law why don't we be honest about it and call it the Boondoggle Act?
15
The only one capable of analyzing big data and coming up with accurate conclusions at this point is IBM's "Watson".
1
Stop spying on me and other Americans who like me can teach what honesty means! You Congressmen and Congresswomen, who sell yourselves to the highest bidder, are the criminals.
19
Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders are among the rare representatives looking out for the people instead of themselves.
Thank you to both of them!
Thank you to both of them!
2
After 30 years in the private sector I now work in state government. It has been shocking to see how the left hand won't speak to the right. I am not at all surprised that the FBI and the CIA did not collaborate to prevent 9/11. The answer? Create another bureaucracy (um, agency) - Homeland Security.
Sweeping our telecommunications data is the height of laziness. We can be much smarter and much more efficient.
Sweeping our telecommunications data is the height of laziness. We can be much smarter and much more efficient.
14
In this debate, Senator Paul has been on the side of the Founding Fathers when they were at their best, limiting Federal power in the interest of our experiment in self-governance.
His stand may also turn out to be as politically significant as then Senator Obama's original opposition to the Iraq War.
His stand may also turn out to be as politically significant as then Senator Obama's original opposition to the Iraq War.
21
I would much rather government entities keep data about my telephone calls than the telephone companies themselves.
4
ATT and Verizon cannot arrest, indict and imprison you. The most they they can do is follow you around as you talk and type and try to sell you "interesting" things.
1
He's using it to grandstand politically, but for once I do agree with Mr. Paul. Let's be careful not to overinterpret, because government does have a role and his wanton budget cuts (to the EPA, NASA, and so forth) will not have the beneficial effect of curtailing government intrusion.
5
In the future, all or any of this captured data can and possibly will be used against us all in ways that we don't even know of yet.
Who will be our leaders 25 to 50 years from now? We don't know do we.
Europeans already know this, (especially Germany) and don't permit all of this collection of private information. They've been down that road already.
Most Americans are blissfully ignorant, just the malleable way they want us.
Nothing to see here folks, move along. This midnight voting charade is nothing but a dog and pony show. Soon all of the senators will be on summer break and it will be business as usual.
Who will be our leaders 25 to 50 years from now? We don't know do we.
Europeans already know this, (especially Germany) and don't permit all of this collection of private information. They've been down that road already.
Most Americans are blissfully ignorant, just the malleable way they want us.
Nothing to see here folks, move along. This midnight voting charade is nothing but a dog and pony show. Soon all of the senators will be on summer break and it will be business as usual.
20
While the public may dislike government encroachment, with Patriot they fear less terrorism. The present administration to its credit has used the patriot powers well in some important ways to make us safer, their execution has been excellent IMO. Now and not surprisingly some republicans want to get rid of it. Rand Paul--he is unelectable---is a side show intended to distract from real GOP goals. So, while making it appear that republicans are being responsive to widespread objections to government surveillance, more thoughtful about personal freedoms, they are working to create what in their view may be a more sustainable political environment for themselves (read more public fear, fewer protections) and in the end probably making the world less safe. Talk about flip-flops.
2
You managed to turn unconstitutional domestic spying on its head, and reverse the role of fear in motivation. You may not flip flop, but your view is certainly polarized 180 degrees from the purpose of our Bill of Rights.
Shifting the bulk collection of data from the government to the phone companies does nothing to safeguard our privacy or civil liberties. It is just a pretend fix, a PR job. It continues the telecommunications companies' collusion with government spying, which was going on illegally during the Bush administration, and which was retroactively legalized with the support of then Senator Obama. Under this so-called "Freedom Act," officials will be able to dip into the phone companies' trove of information whenever they want, trumping up whatever pretext to investigate dissenters or protestors.
Government spying on dissenters, socialists, union organizers, civil rights activists, etc., has been going on since the early days of J. Edgar Hoover. The only change has been an improvement in technology.
Government spying on dissenters, socialists, union organizers, civil rights activists, etc., has been going on since the early days of J. Edgar Hoover. The only change has been an improvement in technology.
9
Thanks for the reminder that Rand Paul is running for POTUS.
4
If Mitch would check the data the NSA has trawled, he'd see that quite
a few of his constituents have the WORK on Sundays and for them it isn't
rare. It's common. They work nights, too. Surveil that!
a few of his constituents have the WORK on Sundays and for them it isn't
rare. It's common. They work nights, too. Surveil that!
4
When Rand suggests that Hawks caused the rise of ISIS, he's not far off the truth. It was the Hawks to talked Bush into pulling the cork out of the bottle. Once Saddam was gone, the whole thing fell apart.
15
All this spying on people around the world did not prevent the Boston Marathon bombing. It did not stop the anthrax attacks shortly after 9/11, or the Times Square attack in NYC.
If you actually look at the supposed successes, they are all against people the US set up, primarily young, alienated loners who would have done nothing if they hadn't be helped and funded by the FBI.
If you actually look at the supposed successes, they are all against people the US set up, primarily young, alienated loners who would have done nothing if they hadn't be helped and funded by the FBI.
17
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety” - Benjamin Franklin
16
If this is so important, then both parties should agree to just repeal the fourth amendment.
If we respect the wisdom of the founders, they REALLY wanted to protect their citizens from unreasonable search by government. The so-called "Patriot" acts stand this principle on its head. Everyone is always a suspect and can be (rather IS) always searched.
If you have nothing to hide... and think the government will always act within the law... https://reframes.wordpress.com/2014/11/03/fbi-fourthamendment-oh-that/ or watch the PBS Independent Lens program on the Media Pa break-in that exposed FBI projects to intimidate any American who questioned the government about the Vietnam war. http://video.pbs.org/video/2365475451/
If we respect the wisdom of the founders, they REALLY wanted to protect their citizens from unreasonable search by government. The so-called "Patriot" acts stand this principle on its head. Everyone is always a suspect and can be (rather IS) always searched.
If you have nothing to hide... and think the government will always act within the law... https://reframes.wordpress.com/2014/11/03/fbi-fourthamendment-oh-that/ or watch the PBS Independent Lens program on the Media Pa break-in that exposed FBI projects to intimidate any American who questioned the government about the Vietnam war. http://video.pbs.org/video/2365475451/
13
Just think, if the Senate had been coming in for work each day, 5 days a week, Monday thru Friday, like the majority of Americans do for their jobs, then they wouldn't be working Sunday, would they? If nothing else, one would think a piece of legislation about a NATIONAL SURVEILLANCE PROGRAM would have deemed that sort of time and focus? But no, lets scramble at the 11th hour to, once again, put half-worked-out legislation into place for the very Americans that voted these politicians into Public Service. Deeply disappointing.
17
Blame that on Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. He is the one who plans the Senate Calendar.
Remember the Animal House movie? "They're now on DOUBLE SECRET probation!"
The thing I worry about most in these situations is what we've seen time and again: "Yes, the law said we had to stop that program, but we ALSO had a DOUBLE SECRET program that we kept going, doing the exact same thing, but it was so vital to the national security that we couldn't tell the Congress or the American people. But don't worry -- we had a secret panel -- we can't give you the names of course -- that reviewed what we were doing and they said it was OK." Ugh.
The thing I worry about most in these situations is what we've seen time and again: "Yes, the law said we had to stop that program, but we ALSO had a DOUBLE SECRET program that we kept going, doing the exact same thing, but it was so vital to the national security that we couldn't tell the Congress or the American people. But don't worry -- we had a secret panel -- we can't give you the names of course -- that reviewed what we were doing and they said it was OK." Ugh.
10
So the patriot act's abuses save lives? This is repeated several times in the piece by important government officials.
Unmentioned FACT: No where has it been proven or determined that the phone records in question were the deciding factor in an investigation.
Unmentioned FACT: No where has it been proven or determined that the phone records in question were the deciding factor in an investigation.
8
Op-ed in today's Los Angeles Times is a warning about official state spying on citizens from former Chilean journalist Ariel Dorfman who, in the 1970's, had supported President Salvador Allende and was imprisoned by the opposition military junta for his views. Many other Chilean Allende democrats were imprisoned, tortured, murdered and "disappeared." Dorfman now lives in the United States and deplores, in the strongest terms, the NSA intrusion into Americans privacy that has bloomed since he moved here years ago.
9
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
What part of this do they not understand?
What part of this do they not understand?
9
Really? A Sunday session on NSA spying on American citizens? How about giving the same priority to global warming or to poor kids getting left out of the American dream, or the increasing divide between rich and poor, or the undue influence of large corporations on our democracy. Our government is screwing around with rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and all the while the ship is sinking.
10
"Our government is screwing around with rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and all the while the ship is sinking."
Great writing Mr. Jack McHenry!! (of Charlotte,NC)
Great writing Mr. Jack McHenry!! (of Charlotte,NC)
3
Too many police, too many heroes, rendering, torturing, the invasion of Iraq and all the fun that ensued and imbued. Too many contractors making money and too many politicians taking it. I long for yesterday.
8
It is such an intrusion. The notion that our government deserves our phone records without any reasonably articulated and individualized suspicion is a joke. Perhaps McConnell wants to live in Soviet Russia. I don't. I want control. I want police and detectives and special agents to do their job. But I don't want some NSA staffer mining our phone records. That isn't their job.
8
Fear mongering by the politicians finally loses. It's about time. I can't say that there is anything in politics that is worse than giving our own government so much power that it can be turned on anyone at any time. ...and it is and will be further.
Look at the media, and the abuses used by our government against reporters who had unpopular stories about our current administration. Or didn't you hear about that? Or did you just sweep it under the carpet?
There has also been no known terrorist plot uncovered by such a program to date. Ever. Admitted by the FBI.
Warrants for private information still exists. They exist for a reason.
The downfall of any civilization in history can often be traced by its leaders having far too much power against its own citizens. We were (and are) on that track, and it's time to stop.
Terrorism against us is inevitable. Spying on our own people hasn't stopped anything yet. Our once great country is only weakened by the control we give to our government.
Look at the media, and the abuses used by our government against reporters who had unpopular stories about our current administration. Or didn't you hear about that? Or did you just sweep it under the carpet?
There has also been no known terrorist plot uncovered by such a program to date. Ever. Admitted by the FBI.
Warrants for private information still exists. They exist for a reason.
The downfall of any civilization in history can often be traced by its leaders having far too much power against its own citizens. We were (and are) on that track, and it's time to stop.
Terrorism against us is inevitable. Spying on our own people hasn't stopped anything yet. Our once great country is only weakened by the control we give to our government.
12
"The Senate action pointed toward a compromise that would maintain aspects of the bulk collection of telephone records, transferring custody to phone companies rather than the government."
Really? Since we do we trust the private sector with personal information? We are talking about the 'Phone Company(s)' after all - once a government sanctioned monopoly and now a thorn in the side of the public interest.
Really? Since we do we trust the private sector with personal information? We are talking about the 'Phone Company(s)' after all - once a government sanctioned monopoly and now a thorn in the side of the public interest.
7
The US govt has become a racist hypocrytical bully. They hate Arabs, but sleep with Saudies. Question authority.
Rich
DHS
Rich
DHS
One of the main things to remember about the wholesale abdication of the 4th Amendment and the rise of the Security State is that all these laws and powers have not deterred a single terrorist incident. Even the most rabid defenders of the law can only point to one "success" where a cab driver was convicted of sending a few thousand dollars to a Somalia group.
Meanwhile, FBI law enforcement ignored calls from flight schools that Saudis were taking flight lessons but didn't care about taking off or landing a plane.
No one sought to investigate the Boston Bomber despite training in Chechnya. No one sought to investigate the Fort Hood killer despite his face book posts.
Every terrorist attack to date has been a failure of law enforcement to heed ample warnings.
The Patriot Act is the result of hysteria and spineless politicians, it accomplishes nothing except to provide the infrastructure for a future Big Brother.
While I disagree with Senator Paul on just about every other issue, I thank God for him on this one.
America is in big trouble when out of 485 legislators only one is willing to stand up for the 'freedom' they all pay lip service to.
Meanwhile, FBI law enforcement ignored calls from flight schools that Saudis were taking flight lessons but didn't care about taking off or landing a plane.
No one sought to investigate the Boston Bomber despite training in Chechnya. No one sought to investigate the Fort Hood killer despite his face book posts.
Every terrorist attack to date has been a failure of law enforcement to heed ample warnings.
The Patriot Act is the result of hysteria and spineless politicians, it accomplishes nothing except to provide the infrastructure for a future Big Brother.
While I disagree with Senator Paul on just about every other issue, I thank God for him on this one.
America is in big trouble when out of 485 legislators only one is willing to stand up for the 'freedom' they all pay lip service to.
31
Sadly the debate is all an act; both political parties are owned and controlled by the same corporate special interests who want the spying, and especially the industrial spying on the World to continue. In short order some "resolution" will appear out of thin air.
10
What is 'meta-data collection' difference
to phone company's currently preserving records of my incoming and outgoing calls?
to phone company's currently preserving records of my incoming and outgoing calls?
3
The phone company lacks the vast power of government. It cant issue an arrest warrant, it cant take away your civil rights, it cant make u disappear, assasinate u or put u in Guantanamo because of some trumped up charge against which u cannot have a jury of your peers, etc etc
The difference is that with the phone company holding them the government needs a warrant to get at it. You throw your landline records, in with mobile phone/gps records, email records, etc...and you give the government a way to reconstruct your life. If they are forced to get a warrant based on probable cause of terrorism its great, but when they had unfettered access the concern is that they could start using it for blackmail (similar to the way Hoover's FBI used their access to phone taps and other records).
NSA contracts are billions of dollars that are spent on contracts and some of it is recycled back to the politicians on the hill. With tons of money involved this will get passed one way or the other. No doubt NSA had no clue on the Boston bombing nor of the millions of American citizen data and credit card information stolen from Target, Home Depot and many others. It is time to say no more spying on American citizens. Finally, when will the media put out a poll showing 0 support for continued spying on Americans? Why is the media complicit with the politicians on this one? I have no clue. This is on topic where Americans both liberal and conservative stand together and say no more spying. No more Kangaroo court that runs like Saddam Hussein's court with no lawyer for citizens and all judgements are secret. What a shame that our country is now become like Turkey or Iraq. The supreme court has kept silent.
20
First, we were duped into a false sense of security by the biggest protection racket in history when the Congress wrote and passed the Unpatriotic Patriot act.
Now we are being duped by the "Freedom Act". So what's in a name? Pure deception by the protection racket.
Now we are being duped by the "Freedom Act". So what's in a name? Pure deception by the protection racket.
17
Even after the Republican promise "to govern" after gaining control of both houses of Congress (an admission that they had not been governing for years, really), Republicans continue to force America to lurch from one crisis to the next. The current impasse is entirely of their own making. My conclusion, recalling their historically disastrous turn in the White House in 2001-2008, is that Republicans are wholly unable to govern no matter what the electorate give them a shot at.
10
Sen. McConnell, whose only reported ambition was to lead the Senate, has shown what a failure he is at leading the Senate. But his true ambition is to delivery for those who own him, and not the taxpayers who fund his salary. He truly is, beneath contempt.
19
I am opposed to the mass surveillance programs, but I'm puzzled by the fuss about the "roving survellance" provision (seems perfectly sensible, getting warrants for each number a suspect might use is just more red tape) and the lone wolf provision (don't we care about lone wolves?).
More importantly, I'm disappointed that the phone records program is considered the most invasive, when in fact it is probably the least concerning of the NSA's domestic surveillance programs. Much more concerning is the dragnet internet collection, which stores contains not just metadata but actual content. The phone records are an okay start, but just scratching the surface of the reforms needed.
More importantly, I'm disappointed that the phone records program is considered the most invasive, when in fact it is probably the least concerning of the NSA's domestic surveillance programs. Much more concerning is the dragnet internet collection, which stores contains not just metadata but actual content. The phone records are an okay start, but just scratching the surface of the reforms needed.
31
While I appreciate Rand Paul's position on freedom and privacy, I think the real problem is that technology has surpassed (actually leapfrogged) our ability to balance national security and privacy.
Data capture has taken off like a rocket. Big data factors into everything we do today. Every field using big data is just beginning its struggle with privacy (or should be). It's no different for national security.
Data collection should not be shut down. Privacy protections need to catch up.
Data capture has taken off like a rocket. Big data factors into everything we do today. Every field using big data is just beginning its struggle with privacy (or should be). It's no different for national security.
Data collection should not be shut down. Privacy protections need to catch up.
3
The politicians who are responsible for wasting billions of taxpayer dollars on practically useless and unconstitutional domestic surveillance should be held accountable. The money could be used much more productively to ensure the security of our country.
16
It is like the old saying from Benjamin Franklin " If you give up your freedoms for the sense of security you deserve neither one ". Obama is just another Bush in my eyes.
19
77 Senators voting for this thing at this point?
Next election, they should all go... Democrat and Republican... Every one...
Next election, they should all go... Democrat and Republican... Every one...
13
What good is Freedom if it is a lie? Billions spent that NEVER stopped a single Terrorist and instead of looking out, the CIA is looking in! This spy program is illegal and threatens extortion to private industry to "hack" Private networks. We put people in jail for what the NSA is doing to the American Citizens.
The real truth is this; there is no Security- how many incidents have happened and how many were stopped because of the NSA? ZERO
You are better off concealed carrying than putting blind faith in a program that spends Billions+ of your tax money with no security only 20/20 hindsight. The American People deserve Freedom and without it or Civil Liberties, the Terrorists have won. They forced the USA to become Russia and China! NO- security comes within the people and the Govt is there to Serve them, not spy on them. What is next? Showing up at your house with no Warrant for arrest? No rights read? If you don't stop this program right now, that is where it is headed in the next 10 years- no end to what they can and will do- a Police State.
The real truth is this; there is no Security- how many incidents have happened and how many were stopped because of the NSA? ZERO
You are better off concealed carrying than putting blind faith in a program that spends Billions+ of your tax money with no security only 20/20 hindsight. The American People deserve Freedom and without it or Civil Liberties, the Terrorists have won. They forced the USA to become Russia and China! NO- security comes within the people and the Govt is there to Serve them, not spy on them. What is next? Showing up at your house with no Warrant for arrest? No rights read? If you don't stop this program right now, that is where it is headed in the next 10 years- no end to what they can and will do- a Police State.
20
Keeping us safe is a pretext. The aim of the massive security state is to have control over the people. And it’s in the interest of private industry to maintain bloated surveillance programs when 70 percent of the intelligence budget is outsourced.
NSA Whistleblower Thomas Drake: Snowden Saw What I Saw: Surveillance Criminally Subverting the Constitution
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/12/snowden-surveillanc...
“This executive fiat of 2001 violated not just the fourth amendment, but also Fisa rules at the time, which made it a felony – carrying a penalty of $10,000 and five years in prison for each and every instance. The supposed oversight, combined with enabling legislation – the Fisa court, the congressional committees – is all a KABUKI DANCE, predicated on the national security claim that we need to ‘find a threat.’
“The reality is, they just want it all, period.
“To an NSA with these unwarranted powers, we're all potentially guilty; we're all potential suspects until we prove otherwise. That is what happens when the government has all the data.
“The NSA is wiring the world; they want to own internet. I didn't want to be part of the dark blanket that covers the world, and Edward Snowden didn't either.
“What Edward Snowden has done is an amazingly brave and courageous act of civil disobedience.”
NSA Whistleblower Thomas Drake: Snowden Saw What I Saw: Surveillance Criminally Subverting the Constitution
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/12/snowden-surveillanc...
“This executive fiat of 2001 violated not just the fourth amendment, but also Fisa rules at the time, which made it a felony – carrying a penalty of $10,000 and five years in prison for each and every instance. The supposed oversight, combined with enabling legislation – the Fisa court, the congressional committees – is all a KABUKI DANCE, predicated on the national security claim that we need to ‘find a threat.’
“The reality is, they just want it all, period.
“To an NSA with these unwarranted powers, we're all potentially guilty; we're all potential suspects until we prove otherwise. That is what happens when the government has all the data.
“The NSA is wiring the world; they want to own internet. I didn't want to be part of the dark blanket that covers the world, and Edward Snowden didn't either.
“What Edward Snowden has done is an amazingly brave and courageous act of civil disobedience.”
26
He broke the law in defense of the constitution and is to be admired.
Enjoy the freedom while you can the RINO Mr. McConnell is against freedom
7
Should not be collected if only because you can't trust anyone of any party just to much power to corrupt.-> Don't forget the founding fathers view on the subject “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” ”Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.” Ben Franklin
8
It's too bad that Rand Paul, with his legitimate stand against government overreach, is locked into an ideological straightjacket. For as he has admitted, his rigid belief system would have also led him to vote against provisions of the Voting Rights Act, which made it illegal to discriminate in public accommodations. Ah yes, businessmen and corporations must have the "freedom" to do whatever they want, but the terrible terrible government (us) must be starved and shrunk and "drowned in a bathtub". What is wrong with that scenario? I wholeheartedly agree with Rand Paul: no wholesale eavesdropping on the masses. But --- his ideology also proclaims that it's OK to turn black people, and others, away from your lunch-counter. I would rather not order from that rigid libertarian menu!
As Dylan once sang:
Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats Too noble to neglect . Deceived me into thinking I had something to protect . Good and bad, I defined these terms. Quite clear, no doubt, somehow. Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now.....
As Dylan once sang:
Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats Too noble to neglect . Deceived me into thinking I had something to protect . Good and bad, I defined these terms. Quite clear, no doubt, somehow. Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now.....
7
No way I believe this... It's a look at my left hand, while my right hand does the trick...You really, really think they are letting this expire. Like at midnight... The NSA is just shutting down the machine??? LMAO!!! HAHAHA! Ok sheeple!
8
I think the text below written by James Madison in Federalist 51 relates well to the need of Fourth Amendment type limits on government.
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."
The Federalist Papers were published in NY to explain the constitution then being considered. You can read Federalist #51 in its entirety here:
http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa51.htm
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."
The Federalist Papers were published in NY to explain the constitution then being considered. You can read Federalist #51 in its entirety here:
http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa51.htm
15
Every phone company keeps records of the numbers you call and how long you talk. Jeopardizing America's security to protect a privacy that does not exist is not worth it. This is a false choice. The amended bill does not encroach more on citizen's privacy that many companies already do. The fact that organized crime entities and foreign citizens may own phone companies means that the government under legal scrutiny is a safer option.
Women have lost far more privacy in recent years when Republicans have placed government mandates for non-medically necessary, invasive transvaginal probes before receiving legal medical procedures, but there aren't many men who care about that half of the population. The Hobby Lobby decision means women's prescription drug coverage is no longer between women and their doctors, but that their bosses get to decide. Rand Paul is not on the Senate floor advocating for privacy for women's bodies against mandated invasions.
ISIS is aggressively recruiting Americans and encouraging lone wolf attacks. National security is not a plaything, and if any one out there cares about real physical invasions of privacy, they would care also about women's rights.
Women have lost far more privacy in recent years when Republicans have placed government mandates for non-medically necessary, invasive transvaginal probes before receiving legal medical procedures, but there aren't many men who care about that half of the population. The Hobby Lobby decision means women's prescription drug coverage is no longer between women and their doctors, but that their bosses get to decide. Rand Paul is not on the Senate floor advocating for privacy for women's bodies against mandated invasions.
ISIS is aggressively recruiting Americans and encouraging lone wolf attacks. National security is not a plaything, and if any one out there cares about real physical invasions of privacy, they would care also about women's rights.
2
Like the obsessive, the alcoholic, the compulsive gambler we have hundreds of military/intelligence agencies which keep doing the same things over and over while apparently expecting different outcomes. The drug of choice here is how big a slice of the 55% of all our annual discretionary tax dollars each of these bureaucratic entities can obtain to maintain their existence. At what point in the "we have to investigate everything, in order to defend against anything" absurdity can some adults just say Stop! Kudos to Senator Paul. Where are the Progressive Democrats who should be making common cause with him to end at least one part of this whole shameful enterprise?
14
Great question. Where was the uber liberal Bernie Sanders?
You know, the Presidential campaign process is messy, corrupt, too long, sometimes absurd, and unworthy of our country. But sometimes, it does produce a great result. Thanks to Sen. Paul for standing up for the rights of Americans to privacy.
19
It is scary and at the same time illuminating to see how politicians are scrambling to generate justification for the wholesale domestic spying enabled by the expiring sections of the so-called "Patriot Act". There is little patriotic and nothing constitutional about these provisions, however they have some strong hold on the military/surveillance/political cabal that holds the real power in Washington, such that vigorous fearmongering is being employed to make us all feel that without these surveillance programs our safety will vanish. Yet ask the surveillance hounds to provide evidence that they have used any of the data collected, even once, to intervene and prevent a terrorist attack from otherwise occurring, and they can provide no evidence of the usefulness of these programs. Despite this broad, wholesale and unconstitutional surveillance, there have been no evidence that the billions spent, and the gutting of our civil liberties in the name of 'safety' has provided any real safety at all. Its time to get focused on finding the real terrorist suspects, without adding massive amounts of unproductive data to an already daunting task of finding 'needles in a haystack'. The last productive thing to do is make the haystack ever bigger.
49
I just wish Commenters -- and Americans in general -- showed as much concern about the corporate invasion of our privacy as they do about the government's invasion. As the current article clearly demonstrates, there is some public debate, transparency, and control over what the government does. No such transparency, let alone accountability, exists when it comes to transgressions by Facebook, Apple, Google, Twitter, and the endless data outfits whose names are not household words, but in whose servers and bank accounts your life resides.
128
Do Facebook and Google arrest people, kill people, ruin the lives of people? People are understandably more concerned about being persecuted by the government than getting customized ads from Google.
68
People have little comprehension of the technical issues involved. It's like shouting at big data analysts in the medical field, "Have you actually saved a life yet??" No one would stop the medical profession from its pursuit of medical advances in all that data despite the fact that they are only starting to see the possibilities.
The ability to look at large amounts of information and try to glean something from it is in its nascency. The NSA must also develop this ability and should not be prevented from taking advantage of this technology. If anything, even more data will be available to the NSA that could keep our country safe. What then? Disconnect all its computers? This is backwards thinking.
The ability to look at large amounts of information and try to glean something from it is in its nascency. The NSA must also develop this ability and should not be prevented from taking advantage of this technology. If anything, even more data will be available to the NSA that could keep our country safe. What then? Disconnect all its computers? This is backwards thinking.
Private corporations do not have the ability to come to your house armed and charge you with a crime. People are concerned that the government is eventually going to build circumstantial cases uses metadata to target political rivals/dissenters.
3
I cannot stand Senator Rand Paul - but on this issue I wholeheartedly agree with him. We should NEVER give up freedom for security. A dog can be well fed - but will be very unhappy if he is not allowed to bark.
8
okay ... no more seat belts in cars, or speed limits. no more identity checks at airports. no more age limits for drinking. this can be fun, getting rid of everything that helps keep us from killing ourselves ... and one another. FREEDOM!
The word "freedom", as John Szalkay used it above, does not mean what you imply. I'll get off your lawn now.
An interesting week when a Republican wages battle against the "Patriot Act" and the GOP State of Nebraska ends capitol punishment. Perhaps we are going to realize Norman Mailer's "libertarian socialism" in our lifetime.
3
An Ounce of Prevention is worth a Pound of Cure... That is true of the Enola issue as well as this Act.
Just think if there is a Terrorist Act that could have been prevented by having the ability to monitor people fully - it would be definitely worth it...
Remember 9/11 - it really happened - I know I was there...
Just think if there is a Terrorist Act that could have been prevented by having the ability to monitor people fully - it would be definitely worth it...
Remember 9/11 - it really happened - I know I was there...
1
How do these Senators have find time to debate renewal of the Stasi Act(In Orwellian terms it is called the 'Patriot' Act), while they are so busy giving away the sacred lands of our Native Americans to foreign mining interests? Let the Stasi Act die, and revoke the recent amendment that corrupt Senators McCain and Flake added to a Defense Bill(the giveaway of Oak Flats in Arizona to MCain's campaign contributor).
20
Wish I could have a hero other than Senator Paul. But, as the saying goes, beggars can't be choosers. And when it comes to Washington insider National Security politics, we the American people are beggars. Most "serious" politicians would be willing to light the Bill of Rights on fire and dance upon its ashes before they'd risk being blamed in a media feeding frenzy over some future terrorist attack, for defending our rights. For them it is neither policy nor principle, but just CYA politics as usual. Senator Mitch McConnell calls it "a campaign of demagoguery," but out of his mouth that's a synonym for political courage. Rand Paul may make it from crackpot to statesman, yet.
18
I think he just did. If you add to it the opposition to drone strikes (remember that filibuster, when he wasn't running for POTUS btw) his campaign to reform the criminal justice system and expunge records of non-violent juvenile offenses so the kids can have a life some day, his efforts to end militarization of local police and end the War on Drugs, well, if it walks like a hero and quacks like a hero, it just might be one.
It is easy to be "for" freedom and civil liberties…who is not? But it would be fascinating to see how many citizens who are righteously indignant at the thought of "intelligence gathering" click "Agree" to any and all privacy agreements ...without reading them. It would seem that there is almost a giddy eagerness to give away personal information --so long as it is to those beacons of benevolence--companies.
6
Your comment is on the money. We are our own worst enemies... after
Mitch McConnell, Sergei Brin and Mark Zuckerberg.
Mitch McConnell, Sergei Brin and Mark Zuckerberg.
1
I would MUCH rather have a my personal information exposed to Google than the government. The government throws people in a jail, sends SWAT teams into people's homes, takes people's possessions, and even kills people, including American citizens. Google gives me ads customized to my interests.
I think it is constitutional. It just needs to done wisely. Use has to be limited and carefully scrutinized. It also has to be limited to combatting terrorism, not domestic crime.
2
And how do you propose to do that? A deaf ear filter? This entire business of the government at all levels monitoring our calls, emails, Internet activity, and even collecting all our license plates at the local level has to stop, and stop now!
8
With all due respect to Senator McConnell, how could there be a campaign of disinformation for the bill? We don't know what the intelligence agencies *really* do, hence the public's skepticism, as opposed to the blind faith for which the bill's proponents ask.
The ideal of intelligence is to acquire *all* of the data. That sounds bad, so there is a token relinquishment of that policy. Their response is, "trust us". It is only natural that intelligent people are going to greet this bill circumspectly.
This bill originated in the mindless panic of 2001. But it was passed by congressmen for whom people voted. Some people are moved by fear, uncertainty and doubt, and there are agencies in government that can leverage that fear to get funding.
As far as I know, the proverbial cat is out of the bag. An intelligence agency will be impossible to monitor. It could subcontract internet and phone surveillance work to another government agency with big data capability. How would we ever know?
Thorough surveillance is going to happen. We are all dependent on the ethical qualities of our intelligence organizations. So when Senator McConnel is upset at the push-back he receives on this bill, he needs to understand that he cannot assuage the strong suspicion of detractors that the ethics of the intelligence agencies could falter.
The ideal of intelligence is to acquire *all* of the data. That sounds bad, so there is a token relinquishment of that policy. Their response is, "trust us". It is only natural that intelligent people are going to greet this bill circumspectly.
This bill originated in the mindless panic of 2001. But it was passed by congressmen for whom people voted. Some people are moved by fear, uncertainty and doubt, and there are agencies in government that can leverage that fear to get funding.
As far as I know, the proverbial cat is out of the bag. An intelligence agency will be impossible to monitor. It could subcontract internet and phone surveillance work to another government agency with big data capability. How would we ever know?
Thorough surveillance is going to happen. We are all dependent on the ethical qualities of our intelligence organizations. So when Senator McConnel is upset at the push-back he receives on this bill, he needs to understand that he cannot assuage the strong suspicion of detractors that the ethics of the intelligence agencies could falter.
10
McConnell is clearly the enemy. He wants to spy on us 24/7 and give away the few remaining decent jobs through the TPP.
I still say the only way to stop this runaway government is simply to get off our collective butts, go to the polls, and re-elect no one. This is the only path left to us to clean house and one we should follow while we still have the right to vote.
I still say the only way to stop this runaway government is simply to get off our collective butts, go to the polls, and re-elect no one. This is the only path left to us to clean house and one we should follow while we still have the right to vote.
5
"Eisenhower's Farewell Address" - heed it well...
Next, it is long past due to vote every incumbent out, regardless of party. Career politicians are evil personified.
5
Exactly! We all need to shut down our gadgets for a few hours and go to the polls and have a real House (and Senate) cleaning while we still can.
1
I am so sick and tired of these - words fail - obstreperous, incompetent, reckless children posing as adult legislators, hurtling this country from one unnecessary crisis or near-crisis after another while so many citizens suffer daily indignities, our infrastructure crumbles, our planet further deteriorates and our national security gets compromised. All unnecessary. All because our elected officials lack depth and integrity and sell out to the highest bidder. Makes one despair.
24
Senators coming in to work on a Sunday night, such travails.
Maybe after this fails some will get the courage to look into the budget of NSA that, along with our 'muscular' Defense Dept, is siphoning off everything but Jamie Dimon's bonuses.
Maybe this can save some money out of the budget--- small gov't, right Mitch? All about the deficit, so this should help, right Republicans? Keep the gov't out of our freedoms?
So much cognitive dissonance!
Pardon a lot of us for being intensely cynical, dear Congress, but your unholy acts revealed by Snowden don't go away just b/c you yell national security anymore.
Maybe after this fails some will get the courage to look into the budget of NSA that, along with our 'muscular' Defense Dept, is siphoning off everything but Jamie Dimon's bonuses.
Maybe this can save some money out of the budget--- small gov't, right Mitch? All about the deficit, so this should help, right Republicans? Keep the gov't out of our freedoms?
So much cognitive dissonance!
Pardon a lot of us for being intensely cynical, dear Congress, but your unholy acts revealed by Snowden don't go away just b/c you yell national security anymore.
40
It won't change nuthin'. They'll jest keep right on spyin'. I must confest to a bit of ambivalence about it all. The lying sacks in Washington versus not wanting folks who do not wish us well catching us with our pants down.
Regardless of anybody's politics, we have to give credit to Sen. Paul. How often do we see a Senator cowering down, rather than simply object to programs he or she feels repugnant, just to allow the majority sail unimpeded via unanimous consent and pass all manner of defective laws, simply under a false cover of expediency and necessity?
Precisely, it is unanimous consent what allows party leaders to ram through "must pass" legislation, including abject riders --such as, just last December, the one that Sen. McCain slipped in to remove parkland sacred to the Apache, and give it to Rio Tinto mining as part of the bill funding the military just last December.
It is high time that Senators vote their conscience, and their beliefs. Sen. Paul has indeed shown something that is so very lacking in all of the other Presidential Candidates: courage and a respect of the Constitution.
Precisely, it is unanimous consent what allows party leaders to ram through "must pass" legislation, including abject riders --such as, just last December, the one that Sen. McCain slipped in to remove parkland sacred to the Apache, and give it to Rio Tinto mining as part of the bill funding the military just last December.
It is high time that Senators vote their conscience, and their beliefs. Sen. Paul has indeed shown something that is so very lacking in all of the other Presidential Candidates: courage and a respect of the Constitution.
12
It's a farce upon a farce. The "Freedom Act" is just that; an Act.
For very long, all the phone companies were in the cops and governments pockets. There was a separation of the governments and the companies and their cooperation was not widely known or forgotten. Now the Act will legitimize a direct link between the government and the phone companies with the farcical notion that somehow the secret court will assure the rights of the target callers, or the population in it's entirety. This is all smoke and mirrors from a Congress and their government that finds it so easy to dupe the American public.
For very long, all the phone companies were in the cops and governments pockets. There was a separation of the governments and the companies and their cooperation was not widely known or forgotten. Now the Act will legitimize a direct link between the government and the phone companies with the farcical notion that somehow the secret court will assure the rights of the target callers, or the population in it's entirety. This is all smoke and mirrors from a Congress and their government that finds it so easy to dupe the American public.
3
We are always a bit jaded when we talk about how politicians are just for the corporations and never do anything for the people. Here ladies and gentlemen, one stood up and defended all of us. I really hope the liberty streak in Rand Paul catches fire with more politicians and we can go back to trying to be a free people again.
11
Rand Paul was using this issue for campaign donations which he made painfully obvious, so let's not get carried away with support for Paul. He likes to be a contrarian and sometimes it works for the people....but he also voted to shut down our government and deny women control over their own bodies and equal pay, which is a little worse than listening to my phone calls.
Sad when the only person championing civil liberties in the Senate is Rand Paul.
25
Senator Paul is out in front on this, but he isn't alone. Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon is definitely on the correct side of this issue as is the other Senator from Oregon, Merkley, and there are others.
This whole thing has been overblown. We need this as much as a mandate to torcher. The psychopaths administering these programs have all the integrity of the inquisition. We are supposed to be afraid of everything but nobody is paying any attention to the banksters. Good distraction, just how much money is spent on all this and what has it accomplished, other than to make the oligarchy richer and more powerful. The East German Staci would be watering at the mouth. Why do they need this legislated, they are doing anything they want anyway? The thing comes across as a cartoon. It's really a government inside the government.
10
The idea of bulk collection and storage does not both me nearly as much as the Court safe guards that should be in place. The FISA court, in my opinion does not have sufficient safe guards or oversight to ensure that they have not be come a rubber stamp for the collection and storage. Do we form a 3 justice panel to look at each of the decisions of the court and to the validity of the warrants. Do we require that the FISA court produce a report to a select group of senators and representatives. The Collection and Storage is important as it give the US a leg up on who is trying to conduct Terror Campaigns in the US. We need more controls.
22
A vote to suspend NSAs operations weakens our protection against foreign cyber threats.
I wish to take this opportunity to support the NSA and their recommendations to protect my family and this nation. The good, hard working men and women of the NSA deserve our utmost respect and support. In no way, do I consider their use of technology for surveillance as harming my individual freedoms, or violating constitutional protections.
We did not choose this Cyberwar, it came to our doorstep. And therefore, the threat does not go away by a democratic vote. Defending our country in the next 20 years requires trusting the NSA recommendations, and not standing in their way as they continuously innovate to protect us. In the world of technology, hardware and software, today’s effective tactics and methods are leapfrogged by the next innovation every 6 months.
Interrupting, or suspending, this cyber warfare innovation cycle, will put us behind foreign nations’ abilities by an order of magnitude. Watch a Stanley Cup Playoff game at 10X speed, and you will begin to appreciate the pace at which the NAS must compete with other nations. Foreign cyber threats wait for openings of just one millisecond. Letting our guard down for any duration, would be regrettable.
We must offer our competitors and enemies no openings, and no corner to hide. Senators and Congressmen have my respect as well. And I hope they can reach a common understanding with the NSA that protects us all.
I wish to take this opportunity to support the NSA and their recommendations to protect my family and this nation. The good, hard working men and women of the NSA deserve our utmost respect and support. In no way, do I consider their use of technology for surveillance as harming my individual freedoms, or violating constitutional protections.
We did not choose this Cyberwar, it came to our doorstep. And therefore, the threat does not go away by a democratic vote. Defending our country in the next 20 years requires trusting the NSA recommendations, and not standing in their way as they continuously innovate to protect us. In the world of technology, hardware and software, today’s effective tactics and methods are leapfrogged by the next innovation every 6 months.
Interrupting, or suspending, this cyber warfare innovation cycle, will put us behind foreign nations’ abilities by an order of magnitude. Watch a Stanley Cup Playoff game at 10X speed, and you will begin to appreciate the pace at which the NAS must compete with other nations. Foreign cyber threats wait for openings of just one millisecond. Letting our guard down for any duration, would be regrettable.
We must offer our competitors and enemies no openings, and no corner to hide. Senators and Congressmen have my respect as well. And I hope they can reach a common understanding with the NSA that protects us all.
32
"We must offer our competitors and enemies no openings, and no corner to hide."
Yes, but are you saying the same for ordinary citizens of the U.S.? Other than trust in the intelligence organizations, what measures do you propose that safeguard against abuse of the system?
Yes, but are you saying the same for ordinary citizens of the U.S.? Other than trust in the intelligence organizations, what measures do you propose that safeguard against abuse of the system?
3
But see, you're presenting a false dichotomy. It doesn't have to be either we support the program as-is or we open the door for cyber criminals and those that would wish to do us harm.
Side note, you are conflating the original intended purpose of these programs, i.e. to "protect" us from terrorists, with the newest threat our government has attached to these programs in order to justify their continued existence, i.e. the threat of cyber warfare. This alone should be evidence of how the powers that be will continue to contort their reasoning to protect us from the threat de jour in an effort to continue these violations of our privacy indefinitely while expanding their surveillance on the flimsiest of justifications.
Had our leaders shown any sort of restraint or respect for the Constitution, the rule of law, due process, or our privacy in the decade-and-a-half since first conceiving of these programs, I would be more willing to trust their judgements and defer to their recommendations. However, they have continually shown their disregard for our privacy and the constitution, lied to our faces, and demonstrated time and again their inability to exercise these great powers with any sort of restraint.
My issue is not necessarily with the career operators at the NSA, my issue is with the leadership that has designed these systems that run rough-shod over our liberties and lied to our faces the whole way.
Side note, you are conflating the original intended purpose of these programs, i.e. to "protect" us from terrorists, with the newest threat our government has attached to these programs in order to justify their continued existence, i.e. the threat of cyber warfare. This alone should be evidence of how the powers that be will continue to contort their reasoning to protect us from the threat de jour in an effort to continue these violations of our privacy indefinitely while expanding their surveillance on the flimsiest of justifications.
Had our leaders shown any sort of restraint or respect for the Constitution, the rule of law, due process, or our privacy in the decade-and-a-half since first conceiving of these programs, I would be more willing to trust their judgements and defer to their recommendations. However, they have continually shown their disregard for our privacy and the constitution, lied to our faces, and demonstrated time and again their inability to exercise these great powers with any sort of restraint.
My issue is not necessarily with the career operators at the NSA, my issue is with the leadership that has designed these systems that run rough-shod over our liberties and lied to our faces the whole way.
2
Are you serious? "Hope they can reach a common understanding....?"
And, our Criminal Congress has your respect? Surely you jest?
And, our Criminal Congress has your respect? Surely you jest?
1
I agree with President Obama that this is not about politics. That is why I support Rand Paul in his efforts to stop the so-called patriot and freedom acts, which are anything but patriotic or free.
I also call upon all Senators to admit that they wouldn't even be having this debate, nor would Americans even know about it, if it hadn't been for Edward Snowden. It's time to grant him full immunity from the power of the governnment and allow him to come home.
I also call upon all Senators to admit that they wouldn't even be having this debate, nor would Americans even know about it, if it hadn't been for Edward Snowden. It's time to grant him full immunity from the power of the governnment and allow him to come home.
35
Fear not our so called leaders will let us down they always do and tell us it's good for us.
10
It is deeply disturbing that our leaders regard this issue so critical to "national security". All without a shred of supporting evidence to support its efficacy, shades of Cheney's continued support of torture,
and how it "protected the nation".
Our government, and too many of those at the top, have been corrupted by power. Clapper and the CIA blatantly lying to Congress is just the tip of the iceberg.
Hurrah to Snowden who deserves a medal for his actions, the only real patriot in this tawdry scenario.
and how it "protected the nation".
Our government, and too many of those at the top, have been corrupted by power. Clapper and the CIA blatantly lying to Congress is just the tip of the iceberg.
Hurrah to Snowden who deserves a medal for his actions, the only real patriot in this tawdry scenario.
22
I grew up in the late fifties and earlt sixties, and I was raised in a working-class, extended family of European immigrants. And I've consequently leaned to the left in my politics ever since I started voting as a young man.. But I admire Sen. Rand Paul. He stood up for our Bill of Rights. I hope this survwilnce bill(s) today crashes and burns and goes down to defeat. It will strike "a blow for freedom" as President Harry Truman used to like to say when he had sneaked an early afternoon "beverage." We all owe Sen. Rand Paul a great deal of thanks for his courageous stand. This country was supposedly founded upon the principle that we are a nation of laws rather than elected officilals who are mnore concerned about doing what is politically expendient to win elections and appear to voters that they are "patriotic." Sen. Rand Paul acted as a true patriot for our country in his recent mini-filibuster in the Senate.
18
Senator Paul is acting as a true grand-stander in trying to turn off the alarm system without having anything -- not even a barking dog -- to replace it.
1
David, that "barking dog" of yours has had a muzzle put on its mouth so it doesn't take a bite out of our Bill of RIghts. Thanks to Sen. Rand Paul's stand. And that dog of yours? Well, it's been consigned to the kennel where all reactionary animals really belong. And, please tell me, David, in all honesty, what politician in either party doesn't grandstand? But Sen. Rand Paul did the right thing during his grandstanding. That's what really counts at the end of the day. Ruff, ruff!
No. Let it expire. Let it ALL expire. Then we can witness the republicans try to put something together and it will be another textbook example of the fact that they are incapable of governing.
They cannot (and have not) kept our nation safe. We have witnessed that they will sit back and do nothing, even when warned in advance of an attack.
We all know they will slash funds for anything and everything and then act surprised when things go wrong, or deliberately slash funds to destroy the government (see IRS) and then complain that it doesn't work.
Again - VOTE NO!
They cannot (and have not) kept our nation safe. We have witnessed that they will sit back and do nothing, even when warned in advance of an attack.
We all know they will slash funds for anything and everything and then act surprised when things go wrong, or deliberately slash funds to destroy the government (see IRS) and then complain that it doesn't work.
Again - VOTE NO!
35
I almost completely agree -- except that the fools, in their incompetence to craft a substitute, might get us all killed.
1
This seems to be led by the immature movement called Libertarianism which is all too happy to destroy the social contract that our government has with its people. There are pros and cons to the Patriot Act, like all comprehensive legislation. But to show the unprecedented mistrust of government, some members of Congress feel that sitting down with their opponents to craft compromise is a betrayal of their ill-defined logic.
1
Perhaps the constitution should be regarded as our social contract. It specifies what the government can do, and just as importantly what it can not. The fourth Amendment part of that contact allows government Search and Seizure, but only when certain considerations are met.
The 1st amendment part of that social contract asserts our right to free assembly and association. We now assemble electronically and perhaps that freedom is infringed when those assemblies are being monitored, whether social media, telephone, or text.
The 1st amendment part of that social contract asserts our right to free assembly and association. We now assemble electronically and perhaps that freedom is infringed when those assemblies are being monitored, whether social media, telephone, or text.
6
The Patriot Act is not exactly "the social contract" between the government and its people. It is best summarized by Orwell's slogan, "Big Brother is watching you."
4
If Obama and all other conservative pols insist that the surveillance program is critical to keeping us safe, they need to explain to us how Boston marathon bombing, Fort Hood shooting, failed Times Square bombing, et all took place despite the "vital tools" the program provided and despite the bulk collection of data?
38
Because they'll probably use the information to blackmail future politicians and business leaders 10, 20, 30 years from now. Kids today should know that if they want to run for office someday, they pretty much have to stay off the internet.
1
Nothing is going to keep every bit of America safe from every frustrated angry fool. The fact that you can't stop every one -- particularly ones that are done like the lone wolves of your examples -- doesn't mean you give up the tools that are stopping (maybe) 95% of potential attacks. And there's no way to know how many speeders are deterred by the very existence of the highway patrol.
1
Nearly all the attacks "stopped" were the result of FBI entrapment.
Why should a decision of such magnitude and importance to the security of our nation and to people’s civil liberties be allowed to be decided in this manner? It seems reckless and irresponsible that something has not been agreed upon before this time.
How sound are decisions made while in various states of heightened emotion, fatigue, resignation and stress? No way to do business.
Tack on an automatic 30 day extension if the work is not completed within x number of days prior to deadline.
Businesses don’t survive long when run in constant crisis mode. Neither does our nation.
Too much to expect our congress act like grown-ups and just do their jobs?
How sound are decisions made while in various states of heightened emotion, fatigue, resignation and stress? No way to do business.
Tack on an automatic 30 day extension if the work is not completed within x number of days prior to deadline.
Businesses don’t survive long when run in constant crisis mode. Neither does our nation.
Too much to expect our congress act like grown-ups and just do their jobs?
8
I am glad to see people (in the comments) on the left and right not just instinctively defending their masters, or opposing their ideological opposition, and opposing this egregious violation of everything that is America and America stands for.
29
Senator Paul is the only decent American left in the Senate, apparently, and I say that as a lifelong Democrat.
39
I think that there are number of players in this debate and each have their own viewpoint:
A) NSA folks\contractors - These are employed by the government and are earning huge dollar amounts. Who knows what happens under the tables, but probably there is a lot of corruption as with all secretive institutions. Edward Snowden might have been unhappy at the workplace so he decided to revolt (an exception). There are always some bad apples but in general these guy are making a good livelihood.
B) American people - we don't want anyone spying on us or on our daily activities. But on the other hand we also don't want any act of terrorism in our country. It is still unclear if NSA activities deter or prevent any act of terrorism: an cogent argument can be made on both sides. A better question to ask is: if we are willing to take some terrorism risk by letting the NSA die? It is not even clear what the risk is. Remember statistics is an another way to tell a lie.
C) Politicians - Clearly, GOP want to use every issue to gain more support of the American populace so that they can win the presidency in 2016. President Obama probably don't want to take any imaginary or real risk of terrorism, so he wants to keep the program alive.
Don't blame the president. It's our decision what kind of society we want to live in.
A) NSA folks\contractors - These are employed by the government and are earning huge dollar amounts. Who knows what happens under the tables, but probably there is a lot of corruption as with all secretive institutions. Edward Snowden might have been unhappy at the workplace so he decided to revolt (an exception). There are always some bad apples but in general these guy are making a good livelihood.
B) American people - we don't want anyone spying on us or on our daily activities. But on the other hand we also don't want any act of terrorism in our country. It is still unclear if NSA activities deter or prevent any act of terrorism: an cogent argument can be made on both sides. A better question to ask is: if we are willing to take some terrorism risk by letting the NSA die? It is not even clear what the risk is. Remember statistics is an another way to tell a lie.
C) Politicians - Clearly, GOP want to use every issue to gain more support of the American populace so that they can win the presidency in 2016. President Obama probably don't want to take any imaginary or real risk of terrorism, so he wants to keep the program alive.
Don't blame the president. It's our decision what kind of society we want to live in.
33
"B) American people - we don't want anyone spying on us or on our daily activities."
I do not have a problem with surveillance provided it is authorized by a warrant based"upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." I think its blanket surveillance of innocent citizens that most object to.
Our founders recognized the need to limit government. In Federalist Paper #51 James Madison wrote"
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."
How about you?
I do not have a problem with surveillance provided it is authorized by a warrant based"upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." I think its blanket surveillance of innocent citizens that most object to.
Our founders recognized the need to limit government. In Federalist Paper #51 James Madison wrote"
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."
How about you?
just exactly who has suffered because of surveillance, Randyboy? nobody but criminals and terrorists. this stunt to please the koch boys and get their criminal funding must end.
3
You don't need no stinkin' rights, 'cause you've got nothing to hide. Only evil-doers need rights. That's the American way. Right?
28
Oh, so it's only bad if someone "suffers"? There's no other reason to limit government intrusion aside of "suffering"?
5
Sorry, Ned. After spending untold (because secret) amounts of your taxes and mine, the NSA cannot point to ONE terrorist or criminal caught by the program. There's a constitutional amendment (#4) against searches without cause, so the law is also unconstitutional. Time to let it go, and good riddance.
4
This is the kind of time when I really wonder if a president does what he really wants to do or what he is told to do by some other person or people. Why would a constitutional lawyer do this? I'm so disappointed in him. He was supposed to return the rule of law to America. That's why I voted for him. And he has only continued the Bush illegalities and just call them legal. "Oh, they're legal, my team says so".
And Rand Paul? I'd never vote for him because of abortion/women's rights, but on this I give him my thanks. My true thanks. For at least trying to do the right thing by Americans. Our civil liberties are gone and Obama helped them go away. Rand Paul is trying to give them back to us.
And Rand Paul? I'd never vote for him because of abortion/women's rights, but on this I give him my thanks. My true thanks. For at least trying to do the right thing by Americans. Our civil liberties are gone and Obama helped them go away. Rand Paul is trying to give them back to us.
84
"And Rand Paul? I'd never vote for him because of abortion/women's rights, "
I don't know Rand Paul's specific positions but I think most Libertarians view things like Abortion as a state, not Federal issues based on the Tenth Amendment. I expect most states today would allow abortion but to varying degrees.
Amendment X: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."
I don't know Rand Paul's specific positions but I think most Libertarians view things like Abortion as a state, not Federal issues based on the Tenth Amendment. I expect most states today would allow abortion but to varying degrees.
Amendment X: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."
Sometimes in life, very rarely albeit, there comes a time, when you should just let it die.
Born of bastardized "Presidency" that was never elected, fostered on a duped citizenry, kept alive by coward politicians looking to keep their jobs, and never caught a single terrorists by the Government's own admission, this direct attack upon our Constitutional Rights and Liberties is just better left for dead like an empty beer can along side the road.
Born of bastardized "Presidency" that was never elected, fostered on a duped citizenry, kept alive by coward politicians looking to keep their jobs, and never caught a single terrorists by the Government's own admission, this direct attack upon our Constitutional Rights and Liberties is just better left for dead like an empty beer can along side the road.
49
And you can be sure they'll recover that beer can and get their 5 cent deposit.
1
And, as today's values would have it, this now becomes a moment to glorify Rand Paul rather than debate what was always a bad law engineered by fear and loathing... It matters little. as eventually The Supreme Court will don their partisan cloaks and show that it was Bush's appointments that endanger our Constitution more than any misnamed law...
13
We got the Patriot Act with the establishment congress, Judiciary, and executives we have. Rand Paul has stood consistently against it. On this issue he deserves praise.
1
I have an ugly feeling that Rand Paul is looking for votes. Tell me I am wrong...
9
I have an ugly feeling we owe something to a guy I could never support. Tell me I'm wrong, please.
11
If he kills the patriot act he's got my vote.
He's a politician and that's what ALL politicians do. What did you expect?
1
“This shouldn’t and can’t be about politics,” Mr. Obama said in his weekly radio address. “This is a matter of national security.”’
--------------------------------------
Wasn't Obama the senator guy who was uber-critical of Patriot Act and said that "we worship the same awesome God in the red and blue states, and we don't like Federal agents poking around in libraries in red and blue states"?
Unprincipled short-changer.
--------------------------------------
Wasn't Obama the senator guy who was uber-critical of Patriot Act and said that "we worship the same awesome God in the red and blue states, and we don't like Federal agents poking around in libraries in red and blue states"?
Unprincipled short-changer.
20
End this illegal, ineffective, waste of taxpayer money tonight.
What surprises me is that no-one is asking how much we have spent at the NSA, violating the 4th amendment, without being able to site a single case where the program stopped an attack.
What surprises me is that no-one is asking how much we have spent at the NSA, violating the 4th amendment, without being able to site a single case where the program stopped an attack.
45
Good question. And how much have we spent (or how much has it cost us) to fill Denny's bank account with enough money to offer 3.4 million to cover up sexual abuse scandals?
1
What about the Fourth Amendment? Clapper, McConnell, Reid, and Obama all swore to defend and protect the Constitution. How can they justify collecting bulk records of the American people, clearly a breach of that amendment? Does anyone honestly believe our forefathers would have approved of secret courts, secret judges, and secret decisions, some of which our senators and representatives didn't even know about? This all stinks to high heaven. Rand Paul may not be right about everything, but this time he is right on. Go, Rand!
43
I can't believe that people aren't willing for their old phone bills to be examined by the government after a court order has been issued. In 67 years, I never dreamed that my phone bill—a text created and owned by my phone company, not by me—could be considered to be as private as my own personal papers—as my diary, for example. I really feel that there is a kind of bandwagon effect here, that people are being swept up by a bad but popular idea that they haven't adequately thought through.
Well, for what it's worth, I hope that the Senate passes the House bill and that President Obama signs it into law later today.
Well, for what it's worth, I hope that the Senate passes the House bill and that President Obama signs it into law later today.
42
It's not that your "old phone bills" should be "as private" as your diary. consider what could be extrapolated from such metatdata when combined with other publicly available databases: who you call, how frequently, where you call from, when you call that person. To gather such data several decades ago, you would have to follow someone around like a private detective, but now it can be done anonymously through algorithms and one can reasonably infer much else about a person from whom they associate, how they spend their time. You may not care, but many Americans do, and many more would if they stopped to actually think about how intrusive this really is.
You might also consider the concept of "mission creep": you may be okay with the current level of surveillance..but give the NSA a cookie..and soon our grandchildren will be as nonchalant about giving up privacy in their bedroom; "Well, they already track us everywhere else...what's the difference?"
You might also consider the concept of "mission creep": you may be okay with the current level of surveillance..but give the NSA a cookie..and soon our grandchildren will be as nonchalant about giving up privacy in their bedroom; "Well, they already track us everywhere else...what's the difference?"
2
That's not how the "law" works. They don't get a court order to look at phone records that the phone company has. They have phone recordings "on file" for every telephone call made in the USA and probably from the USA to anywhere and probably from anywhere to the USA. If you don't think some low level Government employee is going to "sneak a peek" at a phone call that might be interesting you're living in the past. At 67 maybe you are, but I'm 74 and I try to keep up with the times.
1
Its not just the phone bills, its provisions that allow the government to declare your email to be outside of privacy protection after 6 months and similar provisions.
Keep your gubmint hands off my phone calls.
10
A stopped clock and Rand Paul are occasionally correct.
22
"These tools are important to American lives."
Well then, find some other tools that don't compromise citizens' privacy rights. Privacy rights are far more important and far more worth defending.
Well then, find some other tools that don't compromise citizens' privacy rights. Privacy rights are far more important and far more worth defending.
34
And if this ain't a soft coup d'etat I don't know what is. This is PRECISELY the sort of spurious disgusting propaganda campaign a corrupt leadership and rabid military colluding with that corrupt leadership would bring about.
A moribund, stacked, spineless, rubber-stamp judiciary, check. A perverse, narcissistic, self-serving, pedantic legislature, check. A corporate press defense-run monopoly almost completely in control of the message, check. A protected, over-reaching, ferociously invasive and fascist surveillance apparatus, check. A narcotically addictive run-away military budget replete with paramilitary and secret expenditure, check. Top down private contractor/government quid pro quo revolving door collusion in every facet of our civil society, check. Gerrymandering and non-representational district-fixing, check. Repressive domestic enforcement of unfair resource and income distribution, check. Hurray!!! History in the making!!
Oh no now I'm probably suspect lol
A moribund, stacked, spineless, rubber-stamp judiciary, check. A perverse, narcissistic, self-serving, pedantic legislature, check. A corporate press defense-run monopoly almost completely in control of the message, check. A protected, over-reaching, ferociously invasive and fascist surveillance apparatus, check. A narcotically addictive run-away military budget replete with paramilitary and secret expenditure, check. Top down private contractor/government quid pro quo revolving door collusion in every facet of our civil society, check. Gerrymandering and non-representational district-fixing, check. Repressive domestic enforcement of unfair resource and income distribution, check. Hurray!!! History in the making!!
Oh no now I'm probably suspect lol
20
Wow! Just wow! Did you write the on-the-fly, or have you rehearsed that (i.e. c/p from elsewhere). I wish I could recall each of these points so succinctly when I try to explain why our government is anything but noble and selfless. +10000...
The so-called "compromise" requiring approval by the FISA court is only a public relations gimmick. Available records show that the FISA court turns down government requests much more rarely than a blue moon occurs. We are unfortunately in a position where the government demands to know everything about it's citizens and we are not allowed to know what it is doing. The government will only cite "national security" as the reason it will not disclose details on whether these measures are effective or not. Who will trust the guardians, and we are not permitted to know?
11
I am so disappointed in Obama and Feinstein. Obama is supposed to a champion of the people, but he has proven time and time again that he is a closet Republican. He wants to spy on the people. He wants to kill innocent people in other countries. There was an article in the New York Times recently about the Scythians which contained excellent advise against involving the country against an enemy you can't even engage, but my bet is he did not read it. The security of our country DOES NOT depend on spying on the population's communications. Stop it and stop it now!
38
This is far more revealing of Obama's pro-NSA machinations than the Repubs (who are acting predictably on the matter).
11
Predictably? Never would I have dreamt that in 2015, the Republican Party in the Senate would be ripped to pieces by this legislation which has been passed with the support of both parties in the House with the support of the President: McConnell and his faction, who want to keep open the collection by the NSA of metadata (this is probably moot since the Federal Courts have actually already declared the relevant section of the Patriot Act illegal, though they issued a stay on their decision); Rand Paul, who wants a repeal of all provisions of the Patriot Act; and the rest, who support the bill passed by the House of Representatives.
Snowden and Paul are heroes. I'm sure that Obama is correct that this legislation has essential features not connected with snooping on the entire US population, but the terrible aspects shouldn't have been combined with the rest. I would never vote for Paul in a million years, but the abuses Snowden revealed cannot be forgotten or forgiven. The American people run the government, not the other way around.
295
Gene, the American people do not run this government now or ever, not with those crooked 545 imbeciles that run this country. They make up all the rules and regulations for you and me, and mainly for themselves and their back pockets. We need the likes of more Pauls and Snowdens around to set the record straight.
When someone with Brennan's track record says something unsubstantiated, indeed contrary to all previous known facts, like "these tools are important to American lives", I would hope the NY Times would take the opportunity to qualify it with something like:
"Brennan, who has most recently faced criticism for publicly making false statements about the extent of the CIA spying on its own Senate overseers, contracted two previous investigative panels when he made the unsupported statement "these tools are important to American lives"."
"Brennan, who has most recently faced criticism for publicly making false statements about the extent of the CIA spying on its own Senate overseers, contracted two previous investigative panels when he made the unsupported statement "these tools are important to American lives"."
13
I am so grateful that we have a Rand Paul in the mix up there defying the "we the powerful versus the those that elected us" Capitol platform. Let the onerous, ineffective and gross violation of our civil rights called - disgustingly enough - the Patriot Act perish the way any real threat to our freedom should. The United States should never have been - nor never should be - reduced to such gross "misjudgment," to put is tactfully.
8
The NSA should be required to help fix the internet vulnerabilities that they find instead of exploiting them! This requirement should be part of any extension of surveillance.
3
I command Rand Paul to have courage to stand up to nonsense
14
These politicians are a laughing stock. They had months to figure out how to remedy an unpopular and probably illegal act and now grandstand at the last minute to try and get something done. It's about time to have congress people that can work together and uphold the laws of our country. Perhaps if we were not conducting torture and wars all over the world there would be no terrorists. The real Patriot Act should be protecting Americans against their congress folks and politicians.
17
there should be no deal unless the US government satisfactorily explains abuses such as why it spied on ban ki moon, angela merkel, and the occupy movement. if the abuses cannot be explained, it means that the US government is lying and fully intends to continue lying.
decades ago FBI director J edgar hoover spied on americans illegally with much less technology, for example viciously smearing MLK jr. his misdeeds were uncovered, yet hoover remained in office until his death. the US government wants to repeat the same mistake, pretending that there are no abuses. to this day, FBI hq is the J edgar hoover building.
decades ago FBI director J edgar hoover spied on americans illegally with much less technology, for example viciously smearing MLK jr. his misdeeds were uncovered, yet hoover remained in office until his death. the US government wants to repeat the same mistake, pretending that there are no abuses. to this day, FBI hq is the J edgar hoover building.
17
Paul Rand is virtually alone in his action, not because he is wrong, or because the majority of Americans want the Patriot [sic] /Freedom [sic] act passed or extended, but rather because unlike most of his colleagues, he has the courage to stand up for his convictions.
The so-called conservatives are seen to be just as much in favor of a big brother state as the so-called liberals. By their behavior, both groups have demonstrated that they are not conservative or liberal, but rather corporatist, in the sense of the famous Mussolini quote.
The so-called conservatives are seen to be just as much in favor of a big brother state as the so-called liberals. By their behavior, both groups have demonstrated that they are not conservative or liberal, but rather corporatist, in the sense of the famous Mussolini quote.
40
As I wrote the other day - It doesn't matter whether the Senate passes the Surveillance Law or not - due to a little known and never discussed "secret interpretation" of the Patriot Act which allows the government to commit mass surveillance on every American - even IF the law is left to expire.
So this is nothing but a phony debate that each side of the Corporate-dominated Senate and House get to use against each other to dupe their constituents into thinking that these political hacks have their best interests - as well as that of the country - at heart. The secret interpretations of the "law" by other government authorities give it the same power it would have had under the current "secret interpretation" of this and other areas of the USA PATRIOT Act.
What no one - including this media outlet (NYTimes) - is talking about is the slush fund that's been created by the corporations that profit from the misnomer of a PATRIOT Act - to buy off the politicians to vote in favor of the renewal of the Act, and, what is the actual and true cost to the "Own Your Own Politician in America Act" - the OYOPA…
If we actually knew what dollar figure was needed to sway their votes in favor of the people of this once great land, then we could all get together and form a public corporation and buy the votes for ourselves - and actually get something done to benefit the public.
But, y'all come in to the Sunday media circus and pretend to do something that was going to be done anyway.
So this is nothing but a phony debate that each side of the Corporate-dominated Senate and House get to use against each other to dupe their constituents into thinking that these political hacks have their best interests - as well as that of the country - at heart. The secret interpretations of the "law" by other government authorities give it the same power it would have had under the current "secret interpretation" of this and other areas of the USA PATRIOT Act.
What no one - including this media outlet (NYTimes) - is talking about is the slush fund that's been created by the corporations that profit from the misnomer of a PATRIOT Act - to buy off the politicians to vote in favor of the renewal of the Act, and, what is the actual and true cost to the "Own Your Own Politician in America Act" - the OYOPA…
If we actually knew what dollar figure was needed to sway their votes in favor of the people of this once great land, then we could all get together and form a public corporation and buy the votes for ourselves - and actually get something done to benefit the public.
But, y'all come in to the Sunday media circus and pretend to do something that was going to be done anyway.
2
There is zero evidence that collecting data on all emails and phone calls all the time has any significant value for national security. In fact, the opposite is true.
Shame on our President and Congressional Members that seek to scare the public into giving up their constitutional rights for nothing.
Shame on our President and Congressional Members that seek to scare the public into giving up their constitutional rights for nothing.
51
Pity. I expected more from Pres. Obama a purported constitutional lawyer. This law and the more onerous Executive orders 12333 and 13355 by Ron Reagan gives all law enforcement the ability to castrate the 4th Amendment. Most Senators when asked about these rules don't have a clue what is in the document. To further darken the picture, local police forces are now about to purchase the same technologies as the federals. Something the laws never intended.
I've worked in police states and dictatorships around the globe I never thought I'd see it at home.
I think 14 years into the future we should go back to warrants and reasonable searches and good police work. Just because a computer makes it easy; it doesn't mean it should be done.
I've worked in police states and dictatorships around the globe I never thought I'd see it at home.
I think 14 years into the future we should go back to warrants and reasonable searches and good police work. Just because a computer makes it easy; it doesn't mean it should be done.
48
And then watch The Supreme Court apply their political whim? For all their talk about protecting The Constitution, the right has never walked the walk...
Once again, Mr. McConnell shows his leadership not by offering something constructive, but by obstructing a bill with significant support from other members of Congress and the American people. I sincerely hope there will be a reckoning in next year's elections, and the Republicans come to realize that Senator No has become a symbol of all that's wrong with the party over the past six years.
16
I am having a problem settling in to a POV for or against enhanced surveillance to maintain the nation's security. I am unnerved by those who simplify security in the 21st century by declaring the need only for "efficiency and brains" or just "...find out how it was accomplished, learn and execute it." Are those those realistic answers or simplistic thinking run amok?
It should tell us something about the challenge of maintaining our security (cyber and otherwise) when the usually divided Democrats and Republicans are all intertwined on this issue.
It should tell us something about the challenge of maintaining our security (cyber and otherwise) when the usually divided Democrats and Republicans are all intertwined on this issue.
37
The meta-data of your every correspondence has been collected by the government for years and no one seems to care. It's called an envelope, and it tells the govt. exactly who you're communicating with and who's communicating with you by mail. Phone meta-data is no different; simply a record of one phone number connection to another - but without the names attached (unlike a letter). This is the hypocrisy of the current furor over Snowden's leaks and the twisted desire by many to make him some kind of hero instead of the calculating traitor that he is.
Rand Paul is correct on this issue. The question is whether one live in a "free" society or one lives in a "STASI" state. The exchange of liberty for security means (I may be quoting) that you end up with neither.
94
Yes, you're quoting:
“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
Benjamin Franklin
“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
Benjamin Franklin
Does anyone still believe mass surveillance by the NSA actually protects the US or the world? I don't.
I hope this law expires.
I find it incredible that seemingly behind every US / FBI "terrorist" case, is a paid sketchy informant entrapping half-wits, the gullible, and young men with little perceived future wanting to be part of something bigger and grander than the lives they see unfolding in front of them.
Just tired of seeing bureaucrats manufacturing laws, cases, bogeymen and budgets just to keep the funds flowing.
Let it expire.
Still waiting, hoping, preying for real leadership on this, and so many issues.
I hope this law expires.
I find it incredible that seemingly behind every US / FBI "terrorist" case, is a paid sketchy informant entrapping half-wits, the gullible, and young men with little perceived future wanting to be part of something bigger and grander than the lives they see unfolding in front of them.
Just tired of seeing bureaucrats manufacturing laws, cases, bogeymen and budgets just to keep the funds flowing.
Let it expire.
Still waiting, hoping, preying for real leadership on this, and so many issues.
95
You are absolutely right! They do stings in Portland, OR, offering $50,000 cash to homeless guys with no future to grab the money and show up to push the button to a 22year federal prison term.
It is like the only thing these people can plan and get right is when to go on vacation.
Everything else has to be done at the last minute.
Everything else has to be done at the last minute.
24
No wonder my students do the same thing, they are just emulating our leaders.
1
We can trust government with knowing every telephone number we dial, but we can't trust government to maintain a national firearm registry. To put it another way, we need to know who Aunt Edna's been calling, but we don't want to know how many convertible to full auto firearms are being sold to terrorists at gun shows. American conservative policy making = dangerous stupidity. Do the math.
25
"We can trust government with knowing every telephone number we dial, but we can't trust government to maintain a national firearm registry."
Thank you to Mike S. of Atlanta for not just thinking for yourself--but thinking, period. Unfortunately, contrary to what too many earnest Democrats believe, guess who wins in a Logic vs. Patho-logic contest?
At least we now know not to mistake ideologues for persons of principle.
Thank you to Mike S. of Atlanta for not just thinking for yourself--but thinking, period. Unfortunately, contrary to what too many earnest Democrats believe, guess who wins in a Logic vs. Patho-logic contest?
At least we now know not to mistake ideologues for persons of principle.
It seems in my thus far short life of 70 years this county was able to gather just about any information it needed to protect the people without violating their civil liberties. Find out how it was accomplished, learn and execute it. Let the the Patriot Act die. Among other things, the name embarrasses our true patriots.
375
Government, whether acting lawfully or not, does what it wills in secret because there's nothing to stop it.
11
I agree. It is the most unpatriotic act ever.
2
Nobody has yet come forward with a credible case that their rights have been violated by the Patriot Act. I find it interesting that the people that complain the most about the act are ones who have never read it.
Never mind the heat and dust of demagoguery, I am unclear about the evidence in this regard to vote one way or another. Here are some confounding issues that deserve evidence-based evaluation:
a. If someone is listening to ALL phone calls, do we have the capacity to analyze them without going crazy with false positives? Do we have too many false positives that waste our resources and hurt our focus?
b. Is there any evidence that listening this way has hurt someone, or has been falsely prosecuted.
c. Has listening helped? I am aware there is no way to assess this (i.e., estimate the damage that did not occur), but even anecdotal evidence would help.
Just like all discussion about nuclear energy stopped after Fukushima, all discussion on this will stop if we ever get some lone wolf or organized degenerate succeeding in hurting Americans. I am not clear whether we are spending our way to a has-been country without infrastructure or educational institutions because of our unmitigated, unjustified paranoia; or whether we are playing it safe and it is worth it.
I don't know. I suspect our elected leaders don't know either. But ideological positions - that they have a plenty. And I have total faith in the military industrial complex to keep the paranoia going.
Kalidan
a. If someone is listening to ALL phone calls, do we have the capacity to analyze them without going crazy with false positives? Do we have too many false positives that waste our resources and hurt our focus?
b. Is there any evidence that listening this way has hurt someone, or has been falsely prosecuted.
c. Has listening helped? I am aware there is no way to assess this (i.e., estimate the damage that did not occur), but even anecdotal evidence would help.
Just like all discussion about nuclear energy stopped after Fukushima, all discussion on this will stop if we ever get some lone wolf or organized degenerate succeeding in hurting Americans. I am not clear whether we are spending our way to a has-been country without infrastructure or educational institutions because of our unmitigated, unjustified paranoia; or whether we are playing it safe and it is worth it.
I don't know. I suspect our elected leaders don't know either. But ideological positions - that they have a plenty. And I have total faith in the military industrial complex to keep the paranoia going.
Kalidan
5
Amen. This is why we have all those pesky civil liberties and constitutional protections. Somehow, and I think I know how, sedition and cowardice have become patriotism and courage. Wow.
What makes me laugh is the fact that the NSA can NOT come up with one instance that an attack was averted with their illegal surveillance. Yet as some Americans are convinced by the government that they will be in danger if the government is not allowed to spy without a court order, the citizens cowl, hide and go along with a government they usually don't trust, Americans are by definition gullible fools and followers, not leaders.
76
While I do not support the so-called Patriot Act, it is hard to prove a negative. It is conceivable that the existence of the surveillance provisions themselves prevented some terrorist plots in that they were not set in motion at all. Otherwise I agree with you, and maybe this time around there will be more Senators than just Senator Feingold to protect the people of this country from their elected fear-mongers.
1
If national security and stopping terrorism is so important, stop policies that breed hate for the U.S. Most of these terrorist organizations that have sprung up can be traced to some U.S. policy in the past, or some decision by a U.S. President that was not thought through.
A check on government entities is important. ( A system of checks and balances is important in government affairs. ) The argument ought to be on the role of government. ( Not breeding hate and creating unstable governments would be a good start. )
A check on government entities is important. ( A system of checks and balances is important in government affairs. ) The argument ought to be on the role of government. ( Not breeding hate and creating unstable governments would be a good start. )
60
Hannah Arnedt certainly had it right when she warned, based on her experience with the Nazi Empire, that, "Empire abroad entails tyranny at home" --- and we are certainly seeing both in spades.
But, Baetoven, you are correct in also saying that 'Empire abroad "breeds hatred" of the metropole of that Empire'!
But, Baetoven, you are correct in also saying that 'Empire abroad "breeds hatred" of the metropole of that Empire'!
Radical new Constitutional Amendment proposed by libertarian radicals. Few in the US House or Senate expected to support the move. The President of the US was quoted as saying if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about. The text of the Amendment follows::
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
130
.... .... Ooh right, That's already in the Constitution.
Naah, that's just outmoded.
Naah, that's just outmoded.
Isis captured 2300 humvees in Mosul They need to spy on Americans to keep us safe give me a break. Go Rand Go
48
let it die or I wont vote for you is what id like them to hear.
Its illegal and a breach of public trust as well as an illegal use of tax's which should be a CRIME.
Let make a law that says we can hold them accountable and charge them with a crime if they pass a law that is found to be unconstitutional. We have "branches" of government for a reason and obviously one branch has consolidated too much power and we need to balance the scales but this time I say we empower the people and create accountability to the people.
It should be a crime to misguide the public the way this and past administrations have done.
America has the largest prison population IN THE WORLD. When will we wake up and realize these people running our government need more checks and balances than we do.
Its illegal and a breach of public trust as well as an illegal use of tax's which should be a CRIME.
Let make a law that says we can hold them accountable and charge them with a crime if they pass a law that is found to be unconstitutional. We have "branches" of government for a reason and obviously one branch has consolidated too much power and we need to balance the scales but this time I say we empower the people and create accountability to the people.
It should be a crime to misguide the public the way this and past administrations have done.
America has the largest prison population IN THE WORLD. When will we wake up and realize these people running our government need more checks and balances than we do.
11
Well, they all - every man and woman jack of them - have violated their Oaths of Office and the Constitution, and probably broken numerous laws that were written to prevent this very type of felonious activity. The last time I recall a breech of public trust as odious this, and one that shatters the Constitution as this does, it justified a call for Impeachment. And, any politician in public office who has enabled these illegal acts, should be imprisoned as well. It's well past time to have them all removed from office and a troop of more intelligent simians from the Washington DC Zoo take over and run things in their place. They couldn't do any worse than the cretins we have taking up air and floor space in DC.
Well cited, Boehner, Brennan and Obama, the leaders of America's right wing.
If Brennan would pull his department together, all of the laws needed to track real terrorist exist just as they did before the 2 WTC and the Boston and Oklahoma bombings. High tech gadgetry and Gestapo methods are not what make the difference, efficiency and brains do.
If Brennan would pull his department together, all of the laws needed to track real terrorist exist just as they did before the 2 WTC and the Boston and Oklahoma bombings. High tech gadgetry and Gestapo methods are not what make the difference, efficiency and brains do.
201
Do we honestly still believe that ISIS/ISIL - - the group tactically smart enough to mount their attack on Ramadi using the cover of a sandstorm, thus thwarting the U.S.'s airstrike capability - - is going to discuss their plans over the telephone and consequently be tripped up by the bulk collection of phone records? We are probably monitoring their communications in ways so hidden that even Snowden's revelations couldn't reveal them. I smell a red herring.
49
Who know? Maybe the NSA et al will come up with better ways to protect Americans should the Patriot Act die.
6
The Lib NYT readers railed tooth and nail against this program when George Bush was President. What has changed?
7
Nothing has changed really. We have a better President. Unemployment is 1/3 of what it was. The stock markets are making historic record highs, and we have the first meaningful start to healthcare reform in our nation's history. Other than that, nothing's really changed as far as "libs" are concerned.
The first African-American president operating the most transparent administration in our history, is what has happened. Just ask Edward Snowden, and Julian Assange, and all the whistleblowers who have been imprisoned or threatened with imprisonment…or the Senators threatened with jail time for revealing the contents of the TPP…
Looks like nothing has changed. From the tone of most of the responses I've read, Times readers are still mostly against the unpatriotic Patriot (sic) Act.
4
Let it expire!!
71
Go Rand! Kill it dead, dead, dead...
64
We now have the proof (if any was needed) that our government is hopelessly deadlocked. Had this condition been present in December 1941 we would still be debating (in Japanese or German) how to respond to Pearl Harbor.
We need to elect politicians who understand what politics is - the art of compromise. Not "my way or the highway."
We need to elect politicians who understand what politics is - the art of compromise. Not "my way or the highway."
Better hurry up Senate, those campaign donation favors to the defense industry won't pay themselves.
13
I called my Mom twice last week, my kids at college three times, work every day on off hours, my mechanic twice, dentist once, etc. Go ahead and tally those calls to monitor phone traffic patterns. No one is listening in, but whatever.
What does everyone have to hide??? that's so very private that phone traffic patterns can't be recorded.
What does everyone have to hide??? that's so very private that phone traffic patterns can't be recorded.
1
Are you one of the people who is constantly complaining about how government imposes upon citizens? Or is it only when the imposition is between a woman and her doctor or between LGBT people and the Constitution?
Read the Constitution, because you clearly have NO idea what's in it and what its purpose is.
Read the Constitution, because you clearly have NO idea what's in it and what its purpose is.
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If we are going to police the world it would be better if we got out of the car and learned the neighborhood first hand.
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“these tools are important to American lives.”
Yes - their continued presence is a threat to our democracy, one that has not uncovered any terror plot.
Please run out the clock, let 215 expire and do not pass the not much better misnamed "Freedom Act."
A much better use of the Senate's time would be passing a motion to honor Snowden.
Yes - their continued presence is a threat to our democracy, one that has not uncovered any terror plot.
Please run out the clock, let 215 expire and do not pass the not much better misnamed "Freedom Act."
A much better use of the Senate's time would be passing a motion to honor Snowden.
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Rand Paul the only civil rights champion left in America. Maybe we can use our phones again, because of him alone. The rest of the senate is consumed with fear of the bogyman.
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While I am delighted that Rand Paul is blocking this disgusting growth on the Constitution, something that both the administration and the Senate pretend protects us from terrorists, this is the only thing Mr. Paul does that is not totally wack.
His economics are based on delusional fantasies. See http://www.salon.com/2010/05/21/libertarianism_who_needs_it/
His economics are based on delusional fantasies. See http://www.salon.com/2010/05/21/libertarianism_who_needs_it/
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I am being asked to trust the surveillance as needed for protection, but have not been presented with evidence of such. I will not accept that the mass intrusions of data (having an unknown quality at that!) are for my own good. No more business as usual.
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Given Director of National Intelligence James Clapper's record of lying to Congress, it's surprising that any legislators take the administration's entreaties seriously.
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Unfortunately, based on Congress's record, there is nothing surprising about its--or the administration's--behavior.
Internet tracking of web surfing is a much greater invasion of privacy, if we're all so very private. Suddenly this week I get pop-up adds for running shoes and for Bahamas cruises, both topics I surfed last week.
Unlike phone traffic monitoring which does not listen to content of calls, this web monitoring reads and responds to the content of my browsing. I don't care, but to some this may be a privacy invasion worthy of congressional debate?
Unlike phone traffic monitoring which does not listen to content of calls, this web monitoring reads and responds to the content of my browsing. I don't care, but to some this may be a privacy invasion worthy of congressional debate?
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you greatly misunderstand the depth and breadth of what the fed govt collects within the USA. Go to UK Guardian and read more.
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While your ISP is able to keep records of your browsing, most ISPs will not disseminate that history to third parties, except by specific request of law enforcement or the courts.
You, however, have all of the tools you need at your immediate disposal to prevent third parties from following you around the Web. You have the ability to block advertisements, cookies, trackers, beacons, widgets, and all manner of intrusive scripts from being placed on your computer by individual Web sites, advertisers, and big data collection firms.
You can't prevent the government from accessing your computer through back doors, but you most certainly can stop 99.99% of the other spies from monitoring your browsing at absolutely no cost to you.
You, however, have all of the tools you need at your immediate disposal to prevent third parties from following you around the Web. You have the ability to block advertisements, cookies, trackers, beacons, widgets, and all manner of intrusive scripts from being placed on your computer by individual Web sites, advertisers, and big data collection firms.
You can't prevent the government from accessing your computer through back doors, but you most certainly can stop 99.99% of the other spies from monitoring your browsing at absolutely no cost to you.
Robert writes: "Unlike phone traffic monitoring which does not listen to content of calls,"
Seriously? You believe that?
The claim that ONLY "metadata" is collected is an out-and-out lie. The NSA collects and searches the contents of ALL electronic communications, not just telephone calls.
Seriously? You believe that?
The claim that ONLY "metadata" is collected is an out-and-out lie. The NSA collects and searches the contents of ALL electronic communications, not just telephone calls.
I'm quite liberal on social matters, but I believe strongly in individual rights and protections. As surprising as it is to me, Rand Paul is my man of the moment. We're on the same side and he's acting like a great Senator, in my opinon.
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"I'm quite liberal on social matters, but I believe strongly in individual rights and protections." Why do you think these are incompatible notions?
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He probably thinks so because everything else that Paul advocates is horrific and delusional.
See http://www.salon.com/2010/05/21/libertarianism_who_needs_it/
See http://www.salon.com/2010/05/21/libertarianism_who_needs_it/
I'll agree with your opinion that he is a great Senator when he applies the same zeal to protection of a woman's right to privacy and self determination. He falls far short now.
On a political level, the surveillance controversy is forcing Republicans to pick a 2016 theme: to be the party against government encroachment, or of national security at all costs. The fact that a candidate so unlikely as Rand Paul has struck a chord across the spectrum with his defense of civil liberties shows that citizens seek a champion of their rights.
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No it doesnt show that at all: it shows Rand running for president and picking a topic that makes his stand out from the rest. Showmanship with a tad of ego is what it shows.
Hello K Henderson,
Well, my statement came from seeing Senator Paul's message against privacy intrusions actually resonate with liberals, too. Other Republicans like Rick Santorum and Michelle Bachmann are showmen with a tad of ego, also with topics that stand out, but never did or will gain traction as Rand Paul is. Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. Best regards.
Well, my statement came from seeing Senator Paul's message against privacy intrusions actually resonate with liberals, too. Other Republicans like Rick Santorum and Michelle Bachmann are showmen with a tad of ego, also with topics that stand out, but never did or will gain traction as Rand Paul is. Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. Best regards.
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Even Paul doesn't care about government intrusion when it's a woman's uterus.
So much for the GOP being against "government encroachment'.
They're only against it when it suits them.
So much for the GOP being against "government encroachment'.
They're only against it when it suits them.
Thank God for the courage and patriotism of Mr. Snowden.
I wish the 57 (s)enators who voted to support those who trash the Constitution would remember their oaths of office to support and defend it against even domestic enemies!
I wish the 57 (s)enators who voted to support those who trash the Constitution would remember their oaths of office to support and defend it against even domestic enemies!
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If any demonstrable proof that the constant wiretapping of US citizens has thwarted pending (or 'actual' in-depth planning) of an actual terrorist plot were presented, that would be one thing. But the approach of total secrecy and the 'trust us' attitude of our elected officials makes this hard to support.
If this approach is critical to national defense (as claimed), then some evidence of it could be presented to the people on whom they expect this trust. And 'some evidence' does not mean giving away the ability (technical or otherwise) to continue the practice. Our government has done this on more than once occasion; for example, twice at the UN, once during the Cuban Missile Crises and again prior to invading Iraq.
If this approach is critical to national defense (as claimed), then some evidence of it could be presented to the people on whom they expect this trust. And 'some evidence' does not mean giving away the ability (technical or otherwise) to continue the practice. Our government has done this on more than once occasion; for example, twice at the UN, once during the Cuban Missile Crises and again prior to invading Iraq.
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Well the "evidence" to invade Iraq was all lies, so we are best off not trusting the government at all. In fact, in my whole life the only consistency I have noticed about our government is that it always seems to lie to us. Always.
Dear Senate & Pres. Obama: How about having a Sunday night session on an issue or two that really effects Americans. You know. Like deteriorating infrastructure, increasing the minimum wage, single payer healthcare, debt free higher education.
Let the Patriot Act expire!
Let the Patriot Act expire!
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That affects Americans too!
These so-called representatives are so out of touch, many bought and paid for by 1% billionaires. Time for the people to take back our government; Obama too is out of the loop on this.
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Amen, Scott. The terrorists have won a few with the insanity in our government after 9/11. Fear and paranoia to control the masses. Color red today?
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Senators Hatfiled and McCoy from Kentucky exemplify perfectly the Hillbillyization of the US Congress.
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That's a bigoted comment.
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… and effete coastal liberals wonder why they can't get the benighted white working class voters of Flyover County to vote for them…...
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Let's see. Republicans have majorities in both chambers. The deadline is Sunday at midnight to pass an amended NSA law. Monday is June 1, 6 1/2 months after the GOP took the Senate. New Majority leader Mitch McConnell, who so lusted for the job, finds that his empty promises to "govern responsibly" have been torpedoed by his own side. For once, House Speaker John Boehner is cooling his heels while his friend Mitch plays the fool. And, as has become the GOP's way, nothing gets done. On Monday, a failure will be laid on the doorstep of the White House. Both McConnell and Boehner will blame the president.
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If the so-called PATRIOT Act expires, that will be a triumph of the US Constitution over criminal behavior by our government--NOT a failure.
Fascinating. Not one word about Obama's spying on all of us as well as on the leaders of Germany and Brazil. And not one word about that, ahem, Republican, Rand Paul who is standing in Obama's way.
It seems anything whatever can be turned into an anti-Republican screed. I congratulate you on your ingenuity.
It seems anything whatever can be turned into an anti-Republican screed. I congratulate you on your ingenuity.
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How about blaming the poorly written, rushed law that was foisted upon a frightened public. We simply are not frightened enough any more.
Thank you, Rand Paul.
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Thank you, Edward Snowden.
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It's so odd that THIS awakens in our leaders a sense of urgency. Working on a Sunday tells the tale. If only they felt the same passion about our crumbling bridges, or decaying environment.
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David,
this is all about Rand Paul manipulating for attention to win presidency. You're right, if our congress really cared about our welfare, they would be working Sunday's to focus on issues you brought up.
this is all about Rand Paul manipulating for attention to win presidency. You're right, if our congress really cared about our welfare, they would be working Sunday's to focus on issues you brought up.
There are more important things happening right now. Stop the drama, extend it for 30 days and get your head’s right. The Vice President has just lost his dear, sweet son.
Rand Paul is a narcissist.
Rand Paul is a narcissist.
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Sorry, but such an obvious non sequitur doesn't suffice to make me want to give up an essential freedom.
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Get your heads right and stop spying on Americans. To advocate for continued illegal government activities is the result of buying into silly propaganda.
Get your head right please, before it's too late.
If we destroy Liberty in the hope of being secure, Americans lose, terrorists win, the Corporate military industrial complex wins.
Get your head right please, before it's too late.
If we destroy Liberty in the hope of being secure, Americans lose, terrorists win, the Corporate military industrial complex wins.
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Can’t have it both ways. So you’ll be good if something happens that could have been prevented by current methods?
When it comes down to, do I care more about my privacy or my family’s ability to continue living bc so far so good, I choose the latter.
It’s good enough and an honor to just be alive and have the freedoms we have.
When it comes down to, do I care more about my privacy or my family’s ability to continue living bc so far so good, I choose the latter.
It’s good enough and an honor to just be alive and have the freedoms we have.
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Once again, we see the underlying Libertarianism of of the many liberals. The clear attitude here is just to keep the Government out of each individual's life.
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This resemblance of liberalism and libertarianism is superficial.
Liberals don't object to the government getting involved in people's lives, and regulating important aspects of our lives. Liberals just want government to get involved in ways they believe do good things for people, especially for the more vulnerable and needy among us.
Liberals don't want to government to get involved in ways that have the potential to do bad things - in this instance, by keeping track of who communicates with whom - no matter who, no matter why, no matter whether entirely innocent and unobjectionable. That kind of surveillance carries the potential to inhibit free communication among us all, and lead to persecution and dictatorship.
Liberals don't object to the government getting involved in people's lives, and regulating important aspects of our lives. Liberals just want government to get involved in ways they believe do good things for people, especially for the more vulnerable and needy among us.
Liberals don't want to government to get involved in ways that have the potential to do bad things - in this instance, by keeping track of who communicates with whom - no matter who, no matter why, no matter whether entirely innocent and unobjectionable. That kind of surveillance carries the potential to inhibit free communication among us all, and lead to persecution and dictatorship.
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I would agree with you if you substituted "politicians" for "liberals". Doesn't abortion fall into the category of unwarranted government intrusion into personal lives?
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Once again, we see the underlying liberalism in many Libertarians. Now if they could only agree to let women control their own bodies, we might see a new alliance at least on controlling the surveillance state and military industrial complex.
Bulk data collection circumvents due process of the law and is a costly way of finding a needle in a haystack. The point is not to let critical intelligence to go dark, but to make it see better in the dark.
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Congress' inability to fix this is mond boggling, In a few months we will have the next Benghazi, Ft. Hood, or whatever, and there will be hearings to make the Administration explain how it failed to thwart that. Of course, the Republicans will not blame their own disfunction for any lapses in failing to monitor phone traffic that would have led to something being prevented or someone being caught after the fact. All this too because of a twenty something year old who now lives in and extolls the virtues of a country dedicated to the daily violation of every single one of its citizens' civil rights.
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"extolls the virtues"?? source please.
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Right back at you. http://www.nationaljournal.com/tech/edward-snowden-living-in-russia-is-g...
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I just love the nerve of the antonymic name for the "PATRIOT" Act's successor, the "Freedom" Act, as in "freedom is slavery" from 1984.
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Let it expire. The United States of America doesn't need mass surveillance, it's against everything we're supposed to stand for. The proper authorities simply need probable cause to get a warrant and they can get whatever info they require.
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"The terrorists are falling. The terrorists are falling."
Chicken Little, 2015.
Chicken Little, 2015.
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