This is a great feature. Could you incorporate this into some of your educational tools? It makes for a much more effective takeaway.
Sorry to run contrary to the trend, but when I saw the "You Draw It: How Family Income Affects Children's College Chances" my immediate reaction was not to draw the chart. I simply thought, "Of course the higher the income the better the chances." And I went on to other stories. So I never learned that the curve was a straight line.
For me, the time needed to go through the interaction was not worth the potential to learn more than the headline.
For me, the time needed to go through the interaction was not worth the potential to learn more than the headline.
I see your point, however, your thought was simply an assmption, and thats the beauty of it. The draw it feature allows the beliefs you hold to be tested against the truth in a visually represntative way. And as you remarked, you did not know it was a straight line, so you would have learned something. The idea behind this story is great, and despite sharing your well educated guess that the percet of kids who attended college would increase with family income, the graph offered me insights I dont believe a story could have.
I love the interactive graphics generally found in The Upshot section. And I am happy NYT resources are budgeted to produce features which take advantage of the unique capabilities of the digital edition.
The content of this "You Draw It" game brought to mind the experiences of a generation which benefited from a GI bill which paid for full time education at established colleges and universities not at for-profit schools created to receive government benefits for veteran education. My father received his college degree and was able to have a long career teaching high school science and math because of his GI benefits earned when he enlisted to serve in WWII out of high school. His family income would not have allowed him to go to college.
The significant inequality in who attends college in the US can be traced directly to a current lack of programs which actually pay for the real expenses of attending college and don't leave graduates with large loans. This is another example of the lack of investment in what benefits the whole community for which the Reagan Revolution and subsequent GOP platforms should be held accountable.
The content of this "You Draw It" game brought to mind the experiences of a generation which benefited from a GI bill which paid for full time education at established colleges and universities not at for-profit schools created to receive government benefits for veteran education. My father received his college degree and was able to have a long career teaching high school science and math because of his GI benefits earned when he enlisted to serve in WWII out of high school. His family income would not have allowed him to go to college.
The significant inequality in who attends college in the US can be traced directly to a current lack of programs which actually pay for the real expenses of attending college and don't leave graduates with large loans. This is another example of the lack of investment in what benefits the whole community for which the Reagan Revolution and subsequent GOP platforms should be held accountable.
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How about plotting the actual data points instead of showing a regression line, which has to be straight? Then we'll see how linear the relationship really is.
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It shouldn't come as any surprise that the richer a young person's parents are, the more likely it is that s/he will have access to many more opportunities and experiences than those who come from families with lesser incomes. My spouse and I are both professionals who own our own business. Our income places us in the 'upper middle class' category. We have friends - parents of our child's friends - whose incomes far surpass ours.
Our daughter's friends, who have parents in the 'wealthy and affluent' income category, regularly take vacations for weeks at a time to exotic locales - on a houseboat in South America, summer internships abroad, holidays out of the country. They drive luxury cars, live in bigger homes and have staff. They can afford to send their many children to private colleges and pay for the expenses of all of their children, without worrying about any detrimental effect on their own lifestyle.
My spouse and I are fortunate, I suppose, that we had only one child. We can afford to send our one and only to an Ivy League college. If we had more than one, I doubt we would be able to do so.
The more important question is whether this fact is even a problem to begin with. If it is, then, what should be done to fix it?
Our daughter's friends, who have parents in the 'wealthy and affluent' income category, regularly take vacations for weeks at a time to exotic locales - on a houseboat in South America, summer internships abroad, holidays out of the country. They drive luxury cars, live in bigger homes and have staff. They can afford to send their many children to private colleges and pay for the expenses of all of their children, without worrying about any detrimental effect on their own lifestyle.
My spouse and I are fortunate, I suppose, that we had only one child. We can afford to send our one and only to an Ivy League college. If we had more than one, I doubt we would be able to do so.
The more important question is whether this fact is even a problem to begin with. If it is, then, what should be done to fix it?
@Think, in Wisconsin. It might be food for thought to read the post above from Lynda in Gulfport. Her father was able to become a science and math teacher b/c of the GI Bill. An entire middle class was created by that program and extended its positive effects into the next generations. Govt thought lack of access to higher ed was a problem to solve, strange as it may seem today, to some.
She says, "The significant inequality in who attends college in the US can be traced directly to a current lack of programs which actually pay for the real expenses of attending college and don't leave graduates with large loans."
Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
The rich always have more chances but in modern democracies education has been thought well worth subsidizing for the non rich. If not, the society does have serious problems. Today most other advanced countries have low cost or free higher ed, and even medical school. I wonder why they would do this! Does it come as a surprise? Check google and get surprised.
She says, "The significant inequality in who attends college in the US can be traced directly to a current lack of programs which actually pay for the real expenses of attending college and don't leave graduates with large loans."
Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
The rich always have more chances but in modern democracies education has been thought well worth subsidizing for the non rich. If not, the society does have serious problems. Today most other advanced countries have low cost or free higher ed, and even medical school. I wonder why they would do this! Does it come as a surprise? Check google and get surprised.
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I paid my own way through college for multiple degrees. It took me longer to finish college than the average. I helped pay the way for my first husband to finish two degrees. I raised two kids as a single mom, one is an attorney, one is a non completer of college. I have worked since I was 14 years old. I am a Chicago native. My parents believed boys should go to college, not girls. I am a female. My family was middle class, not upper middle, smack dab in the middle. Upshot, do a long term study on some are completers and others not.
jal333....you are indeed deserving of a halo for all you've done. Must have been hard on you. You say of your kids, one is an attorney, one is a non completer of college. I feel sorry for any child labeled a 'non completer', by a mom, whether of college or anything else. Please convey my sympathy, and best wishes for this child.
I worked my way through college too and paid back loans. So what.
I worked my way through college too and paid back loans. So what.
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Your Draw It page didn't work on my Mac (10.10.3) with Firefox. I can draw the line but the "I'm done" button doesn't work.
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It did not work on my Windows 7/Firefox either. Just a blank space with no ability to draw anything. The boxes at the bottom appeared but were not operational.
I get two print newspapers each day and am able to entertain myself without resorting to my "smart" phone; however, the opportunity to interact with the chart is one way that the online "paper" can be engaging. I enjoyed this as well as other such features. All things new are not good and all good things are not new--but some are!
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Consider please the childhood separation in economic "quality of life" between a slum kid or borderline slum kid or just a very poor kid living in a poor place and hoping to go to college or those kids in a neighborhood like Evanston Township in Illinois, a semi-affluent place where going to college is simple and done for most -- and consider that a number of those poor kids are smart enough to see that college is best for a future unlike their poor parents -- so they (and their parents) take out their only option: student loans. Not all these "poor" grads with get jobs to pay off anywhere near their loans, unlike the affluent kids, who may have family resources. So the poorer kids may spend their lives enslaved to the banks, no hope of bankruptcy for student loans -- so there are thousands of educated suffering redos of poverty unending, a trap set by the "Blue Dogs" in Congress under Ellen Tauscher's leadership years ago. There should be the same rights to bankruptcy for student loans as any other debt in the US. But the nation double-downs on the poor. For shame. Change the law. Do research on how the poor can wind up in jail for failure to pay those debts made so much in earnest, for the sake of an education, for gods sake. www.williamrichert.com.
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So there is a straight line connection between a family's income and their children's attendance in college. Are there any other straight line connections to a family's income, or this is a notable exception.
What about intelligence? What about family stability? What about the number of books read per year or the amount of television watched? My guess is that a family's income is indicative of many things and educational achievement of the working members of the family and of their children are just some of them.
Does one really expect that low achieving families, often single earner with a minimum wage, is going to have a high achieving child destined for entrance to a highly selective college? What about a technical college? Are all colleges the same in this study? Genetics plays a major role in one's success in life to the extent that money, stability, and power over others are signs of success. The twin studies pretty much prove that genetics account for 75% of a person's personality, I.Q. motivation, and now we know, even their tendencies to have extra-marital affairs.
What about intelligence? What about family stability? What about the number of books read per year or the amount of television watched? My guess is that a family's income is indicative of many things and educational achievement of the working members of the family and of their children are just some of them.
Does one really expect that low achieving families, often single earner with a minimum wage, is going to have a high achieving child destined for entrance to a highly selective college? What about a technical college? Are all colleges the same in this study? Genetics plays a major role in one's success in life to the extent that money, stability, and power over others are signs of success. The twin studies pretty much prove that genetics account for 75% of a person's personality, I.Q. motivation, and now we know, even their tendencies to have extra-marital affairs.
Does no one think the absolute purity of the observed relationship is - how to put this - a bit sad? Discouraging? Soul-crushing? One of those terrible glimpses into reality that people are so good at avoiding?
One apparent definition of innovative journalism is how to keep reporting these same dreary, brutal facts decade after decade, while lightening the atmosphere with "exciting innovations" and "interactive features."
One apparent definition of innovative journalism is how to keep reporting these same dreary, brutal facts decade after decade, while lightening the atmosphere with "exciting innovations" and "interactive features."
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I appreciated this feature and did the graph twice, the second time trying to think of my country. I think we all stand to gain if we are more familiar with statistics and charts, and having to draw a chart oneself is a good hands-on way to grasp the concepts better. I'd like to see more of this, e.g. draw a chart comparing the U.S. with other countries in different areas of attainment. Or using one of Picketty's charts.
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I agree with the letter that this approach "draws" us in.
It still is so focused on this big numbers understanding of truth; graphs, lines, charts and numbers, that must be the truth, huh?
There are stories in recent issues of the times that amend the dialogue around this issue: the college essays about money, the Op-Ed "Long Odds in the Game of Life."
Not one single story, whether a big numbers story or a narrative, is "the" story on this or any issue.
It still is so focused on this big numbers understanding of truth; graphs, lines, charts and numbers, that must be the truth, huh?
There are stories in recent issues of the times that amend the dialogue around this issue: the college essays about money, the Op-Ed "Long Odds in the Game of Life."
Not one single story, whether a big numbers story or a narrative, is "the" story on this or any issue.
I think NYT is very innovative and has a marvelous design, but didnt find this exercise very illuminating. I dont like contents made by readers, I like good journalism made by good professionals.
I want to add something about college attendance: the chart would have the same curve here in my country where college is completely free for everyone. Inequity is not only about money, its about "local" culture, location of you house, transport infrastracture and many others facts.
I want to add something about college attendance: the chart would have the same curve here in my country where college is completely free for everyone. Inequity is not only about money, its about "local" culture, location of you house, transport infrastracture and many others facts.
How do you know a priori that the chart would look the same in Buenos Aires? You need to do the research first (and then chart the results!).
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Luis....please give us a hint on how they finance free college in your country. We need comments to enlighten us a bit, since the news doesn't report how this is done in so many countries, while it's deemed impossible here.
Good topic for the Upshot-- how do most other countries pay for free or low cost college? And for apprenticeships and job training for the non college bound, that gives them some skills and confidence for the future? This results in better equality and less poverty. What a concept.
Good topic for the Upshot-- how do most other countries pay for free or low cost college? And for apprenticeships and job training for the non college bound, that gives them some skills and confidence for the future? This results in better equality and less poverty. What a concept.
I thought this was a terrific feature! It necessarily requires both thought and action to get to the punchline. It challenges the reader to make a little bit of effort. Keep innovating!
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I'd like the possibilities of having interactive features like this. A great way for parents to teach children how to work with graphs (e.g. follow the stock market, analyze data, chart price changes). It would be a great weekend feature to engage parents and children.
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Sorry, this didn't serve the readers well. If you couldn't figure out how to use the technology to draw the figure, or didn't have the dexterity, or simply didn't have that much time or interest, you didn't get to learn the facts. Authors should not pat themselves on the back for this fail.
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Does this linear relationship between family income and "college" attendance mean that inequality between families will be defeated any time soon? I don't think so. And neither does Thomas Piketty.
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I propose 100 charts of this type to expose ourselves to our own giant, leaping, boundless ignorance. No joke.
Yet, what do we conclude from the fact that there is something like a 1 to 1 correlation between income and increasing college enrollment? The nit and the grit of the outcome (enrollment) is in the details of why this occurs.
Some of the correlation is surely due to mom, dad and other relatives: they went to college, they are making more money than average and, by their life example, not just income, they encourage their kids to step up to the plate. Likewise, someone who is doing well economically but who did not attend college might have a special desire to see their kids complete this social milestone.
There's more: More money in the family means that college is more easily attainable. I was the first in my family to go to college and my father was very leery of the expense (he made plenty of money to afford it, however). The result was that after my first year, I paid for virtually all of my final three years. My father either didn't see the value or was greatly influenced by the stories of "wasted youth" that spew forth from campuses. I had decided at the age of five that I would attend college and told my parents, but I suppose my father failed to note this lifelong ambition or give it much importance.
Being able to pay for college is of vital importance. Likewise, not having enough money, or having doubts about paying for it, can block the pathway.
Yet, what do we conclude from the fact that there is something like a 1 to 1 correlation between income and increasing college enrollment? The nit and the grit of the outcome (enrollment) is in the details of why this occurs.
Some of the correlation is surely due to mom, dad and other relatives: they went to college, they are making more money than average and, by their life example, not just income, they encourage their kids to step up to the plate. Likewise, someone who is doing well economically but who did not attend college might have a special desire to see their kids complete this social milestone.
There's more: More money in the family means that college is more easily attainable. I was the first in my family to go to college and my father was very leery of the expense (he made plenty of money to afford it, however). The result was that after my first year, I paid for virtually all of my final three years. My father either didn't see the value or was greatly influenced by the stories of "wasted youth" that spew forth from campuses. I had decided at the age of five that I would attend college and told my parents, but I suppose my father failed to note this lifelong ambition or give it much importance.
Being able to pay for college is of vital importance. Likewise, not having enough money, or having doubts about paying for it, can block the pathway.
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There is a big difference between attending college and completing college. I think that if this graph was used to correlate income and college completion (even allowing 10 years to get a BA or BS) you would see a much different curve.
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I was about to offer a similar comment before I found yours. Coming from a dead-solid middle class existence, I went directly to college (a Big 8 university) out of high school, got side-tracked by the Vietnam War (a very long story), muddled through nearly a decade before getting the first of three associate degrees (welding technology, followed by registered nurse, then computer technology), before finally getting a BS in Computer Science...at the age of 53. I have made a living, at one time or another, as a Licensed Practical Nurse, furniture mover, city bus driver, construction laborer/carpenter, newspaper reporter, RN, community college adjunct instructor, computer programmer. I had returned to nursing before I retired. I guess my graph would resemble a medieval maze. Of the four of us kids in the family, three have bachelor's degrees. The one without a degree has had the highest yearly income over the past two decades, as an auto mechanic.
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If only there were an innovative alternative to the bulky old Classified ad sections that used to raise enough revenue to adequately pay the journalists who produce all the innovative content, but alas ...
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There are innovative ways to save the "newspaper" industry, but so far I haven't been able to get anyone in a position of power at a major newspaper to listen. The normal way in American business is to spend several million dollars producing slick brochures and video presentations, but not everyone has that ready cash available. Besides, getting to the future for what previously were exclusively print operations is a process, not just a single leap forward.
Not at all. Your graph showed a linear relationship between family income *ranking* and college attendance. Since the relationship between income and ranking (percentile) in this country is exponential, a graph that plotted actual income would indeed flatten out at the top end, exactly as predicted.
Given the mandate of The Upshot you should really be more precise.