But really that doesn't make any sense, none at all. Four Seasons was new at one time and ironically stood its ground on a resolutely modernistic framework, both decor and food. Seagram Building replaced something which came before. Another developer stood before its buildings with a 'dozer, why is Aby Rosen worse than they?
Everything was new, once. If we preserve all of the old, nothing new can be built to become old, the city will look like a museum piece and become a playground for the rich only as parts of London and Paris have become.
Four Seasons is a valuable socio-cultural artifact but it is not timeless!
Everything was new, once. If we preserve all of the old, nothing new can be built to become old, the city will look like a museum piece and become a playground for the rich only as parts of London and Paris have become.
Four Seasons is a valuable socio-cultural artifact but it is not timeless!
I've never been able to afford the Four Seasons, and now that I probably could, I'd rather spend that money on an evening in a pub in Ireland. There are so many places all over the world I'd rather be than in a pretentious NY restaurant where I will likely be looked down on because I'm not famous enough to be this black in an establishment this "upper crust".
You can keep the Four Seasons or do away with it as you please. It will make absolutely no difference in my life, whatsoever.
You can keep the Four Seasons or do away with it as you please. It will make absolutely no difference in my life, whatsoever.
Un-American and greed is what this is. Shame on you, Aby Rosen. The times is doing you a favor giving you the courtesy of "Mr."
1
The last time I visited Four Seasons was in 2009 at my grandfather's invitation who has been a regular. Even then I found the establishment and the menu dated. The service was up to the standards to be expected, but honestly there wasn't much going on that could have captured new customers. I have to agree that sometimes tradition and history alone are insufficient.
2
One of the most expensive cities in the world will always favor the highest bidder over culture and tradition. Even the great unwashed have their memories:
Wikipedia: "At one time there were 40 Horn & Hardart automats in New York City alone. The last one closed in 1991. Horn and Hardart converted most of its New York City locations to Burger Kings. At the time, the quality of the food was described by some customers as on the decline."
Wikipedia: "At one time there were 40 Horn & Hardart automats in New York City alone. The last one closed in 1991. Horn and Hardart converted most of its New York City locations to Burger Kings. At the time, the quality of the food was described by some customers as on the decline."
Having dined there again just yesterday -- it was on a summer Friday night -- and despite the week-end country pilgrimages, it was teeming with people, wonderful buzz, people enjoying the evening and occasion. The food continues to be very enjoyable, even if the menu is more adorned with "classics" than "innovations." There is a sense of space, and place, and civility, without sacrificing energy, vitality and engagement. My father and mother first brought me here in the 70's, and I have visited countless times since, including at numerous life milestones. Leaving aside aesthetic differences, I am fascinated to see given the 'landmark' status of the space, what operator will be able to imprint a compelling personality on it in a way that will even remotely equal the business done currently by this hardy perennial? I agree transplanting 'The Four Seasons' to another space, is a great challenge, perhaps insuperable, though I shall continue to hope not -- particularly if another iconic space is located. But grafting another operator onto this venerable space who can leverage the surroundings profitably and memorably, may be a challenge of at least equal magnitude. This could be a massive lose/lose situation all around, and you have to wonder how much peevishness and ego driven chest pounding from the owner as opposed to business sense is driving what may prove to be zero sum rancor.
2
I dined there half a dozen times in the sixties during visits to NYC mainly as guests of colleagues in the fine jewelty trade with whom I did some business . My initial impression was that while wildly over the top in design and atmosphere , the food and service was exceptional . As for references to "club house" status , I innocently assumed that it was simply the canteen for wise guys from 47th street and 608 5th Ave (Swiss-Air Bldg.) . Until I came across this NY times piece on it's potential move I didn't know that it still existed and had vanished along with the Russian Tea Room , Jim Downey's and other favourites of the fifties and sixties .
"...said the influential lawyer David Boies, who estimates that he has dined at the Four Seasons more than 500 times, sometimes for lunch and dinner on the same day."
This is so vain, particularly for someone who keeps count on how many times they have dined at the place.
The post-modern, neo-minimalist decor might seem chic in the 1950s, but anyone who's coming of age, seeing as we all do of the very many restaurants and get-ups have over the years, would find the Four Seasons decor tired and dated. Then again, these days the draw isn't about the decor or the food, but *who* dines there. And for those wannabes like Boies (yes, I wouldn't have thought I would write this guy off as a wannabe, but such as it is), I'm sure they would follow the "cathedral" where it fancies relocating itself to. Again, vain. I'll find more bangs for my bucks elsewhere, thank you very much.
This is so vain, particularly for someone who keeps count on how many times they have dined at the place.
The post-modern, neo-minimalist decor might seem chic in the 1950s, but anyone who's coming of age, seeing as we all do of the very many restaurants and get-ups have over the years, would find the Four Seasons decor tired and dated. Then again, these days the draw isn't about the decor or the food, but *who* dines there. And for those wannabes like Boies (yes, I wouldn't have thought I would write this guy off as a wannabe, but such as it is), I'm sure they would follow the "cathedral" where it fancies relocating itself to. Again, vain. I'll find more bangs for my bucks elsewhere, thank you very much.
5
Whether one liked the Four Seasons or not, it is a symptom of a much larger problem. That market rents have skyrocketed to the point that even expensive, well regarded restaurants with long histories in the area get priced out. That neighborhoods that used to be marked with unique and distinctive restaurants and stores are becoming homogenized as every corner now seems to hold a bank, a Duane Reed or a Starbucks. Independent stores and restaurants can't keep up with franchises and the character of the city suffers as a result. New York is losing a lot more than a famous restaurant - we're losing another chunk of our unique history and culture.
2
Indeed. This is what has been happening to the rest of the plebes for the last twenty years. South Lake Tahoe used to be a quaint little town full of independent shops once one walked off the end of casino row. All of them were razed for a huge plastic mall-like edifice filled with high-end "sportswear".
While I understand the chagrin, it is far too little and far too late for empathy that finally the .1% is feeling what the rest of the country has been going through for decades.
While I understand the chagrin, it is far too little and far too late for empathy that finally the .1% is feeling what the rest of the country has been going through for decades.
1
It's people like Aby Rosen who are destroying this city and its storied history! Everywhere you look, residential buildings are going up and they all look alike. Tradition and history mean nothing and in a city with hundreds of years of history (good and bad), that's a very sad statement.
1
Let me speak for the Hoi Polloi I was in New York with college students on a singing tour from Miami University. I talked several students into going to The Four Seasons for lunch on February 28,1986, the menu hangs in my kitchen. The food was wonderful, but I will never forget the staff. They made all of us feel that we were the most important people in the room and we were as comfortable as though we were home. That will always be the paragon of what a great restaurant should be, and I felt a real pang of loss to think this wonderful and special place will be no more. Poor deluded Mr Rosen.
6
I only ate at the Four Seasons three times...twice in 1975 and 1976...with a much older lover who also took me to another old-line (by today's standards) New York institution, the Russian Tea Room, and once for a professional reception.
Frank and I dined in the Pool Room, and I still remember the dessert--the coffee cup soufflé. Everything was wonderful: the company, the place, and the time.
The only thing constant about New York...and life...seems to be change. Lives and places are like ships, slipping their moorings and voyaging on to other destinations or to memory. The grand liners of yore no longer traverse the Atlantic regularly. Frank sailed off in 1983 to the final destination for us all. The clientele of the Four Seasons is aging, and its "clubhouse" seems to be sailing off towards somewhere new.
But the memory lingers...and those of my dinners at the Four Seasons will glow on until I, too, slip my moorings...
Frank and I dined in the Pool Room, and I still remember the dessert--the coffee cup soufflé. Everything was wonderful: the company, the place, and the time.
The only thing constant about New York...and life...seems to be change. Lives and places are like ships, slipping their moorings and voyaging on to other destinations or to memory. The grand liners of yore no longer traverse the Atlantic regularly. Frank sailed off in 1983 to the final destination for us all. The clientele of the Four Seasons is aging, and its "clubhouse" seems to be sailing off towards somewhere new.
But the memory lingers...and those of my dinners at the Four Seasons will glow on until I, too, slip my moorings...
2
David Boies is a smart guy. Does he realize what he sounds like when he calls this a "tragedy" and says "It's very depressing...I mean, where am I going to go?"
5
I understand the issues around the loss of important architecture, and the loss of important elements in the physical city. But someone is quoted as saying this would be "a tragedy". Tragedy in the context our our physical city is the relentless loss of texture, variety and human scale in our neighborhoods -- all of them, even the rich ones. Tragedy is something that causes great suffering, destruction, and distress. Destroying the fabric of our micro-communities, reducing the complex human interaction that occurs in the course of everyday life....that is much closer to tragedy. Losing just another rich playpen, affecting, ummm, say 1% of our population (not even; say .1%?) is not even a bat of the eyelash. If architects today design such places, they should be prepared for their eventual demise when the rich get bored (or some other rich want to use it for something else). How much does our city lose if this goes away? How much does it lose when all of Manhattan is glass towers, chain stores and designer shrines? But, perhaps we should save the word "tragedy" for the real thing.
7
Funny how all the rich 1% who frequent this place are the liberal elites. And yes to some it would be a tragedy, the city is soon becoming a canvas of high rises that only the upper echelon can live, no sunlight, and destruction of architectural landmarks.
1
In 4 years the pool area will be the island kitchen of a Chipotle
4
It is the room, not the restaurant. There are a good number of restaurants in this city where the food is better, and lately much better. One goes to the Four Seasons for the ambiance and the unique architecture that is part and parcel thereof. If Mr. Rosen does not destroy the overall ambiance and installs a restaurant with a top quality chef and menu in the space it will be fine (a big if on the ambiance bit as he has expressed displeasure with it). So it will not be called the Four Seasons -a rose by another name... By the same token the Four Seasons located other than in the Seagram Building will not be the Four Seasons, sorry.
3
Aby J. Rosen proves that grownup life is just high school with much more money.
4
So now we know where the next '5 Napkin Burger' franchise is opening.
3
Mr. Rosen has confused two different subjects: restaurant and architecture. If the restaurant owners relocate, the architecture is still the thing that makes the space special. It won't go away when the restaurant leaves. A new restaurant can go in, and make the space its own. But to alter the space is akin to taking an architectural gem (a Renaissance church, the lobby/plaza of the Seagram building itself, or the Woolworth building lobby, as examples) and mashing it up in ruinous fashion. For a man who spends a lot of money on art, Mr. Rosen is surprisingly ignorant about the value of one-of-a-kind architecture. He will lower the value of his investment in the building if he eventually gets away with tampering with the space.
9
Mr. Rosen understand ownership, not art. He will buy and hang a Justin Bieber poster for $1 million if he can resell it for $2 million in a year.
1
The Four Seasons is more than a restaurant, it is an institution. It is sad that Mr. Rosen fails to grasp that fact and puts money above all else. The ignorance of those who fail to appreciate the meaning and value of places and spaces like the Four Seasons is a scourge on society. I wish the Four Seasons all the best.
5
How many, among the Times readers, call themselves “regulars” at this lavish joint?
My eyes are getting misty. Please pass me a hanky!
My eyes are getting misty. Please pass me a hanky!
4
I think you are correct: not many people could be regulars. Isnt that the point made over and over in these comments? It's not a "regular" place for most of us, but a special-occasion place, like a beautiful dress you wear to mark a big night. That's why it's loss will be felt so keenly. It's an extraordinary, shimmering, quiet place you inhabit just for the great moments, and remember forever.
12
Sir/madam
I work for living. I live paycheck to paycheck.
If/when I have a "very special-occasion", I will invite folks home, chill some bud/miller, fire up the grill, and call it a day.
I work for living. I live paycheck to paycheck.
If/when I have a "very special-occasion", I will invite folks home, chill some bud/miller, fire up the grill, and call it a day.
4
An you know what? Your experience is no less special, and maybe more, than the major domos in their gilded cage. I've had the chance to dine a la Four Seasons occasionally in my life, and I've enjoyed it (usually) - I won't say no. But I can have a great beer at Rattle 'n Hum on 33rd Street and walk down to Papaya for two dogs (I specify the well-grilled ones in the corner) and have as much fun, maybe more, depending whom I'm with, or not. And I mean that.
3
The Times devotes considerable space to income inequality. And in that light, why should we be concerned that a restaurant of the 1% (0.1%) is moving to a new location?
9
One factor omitted in the pub. comments is the relative abstinence of many restaurant patrons, whether at the FOUR SEASONS or elsewhere. It is a hard and fast rule that an establishment loses money on the food, but makes up for that loss through the sale of hard liquor. I am not talking about the symbolic bottle of wine for a table of two or four, but hard liquor as aperitifs, followed by two or three bottles of wine for a party say, of five or six,with brandies all around with one's post prandial coffee. I don't know whether this is the case for FOUR SEASONS, but it is true for most other eating places, whether modest or fancy. The health craze that hit New York and Paris among other major cities in the world spelled disaster for many restaurant owners. All of a sudden they had lost the cushion, the profitability in meals served, but preceded by hard liquor before and after the meal. This is where the profit lies. Even if you double the price of a bottle of wine for a party of diners, you are still running a deficit unless your party indulges in aperitifs On my return to Paris in the 1970's I I saw a party of diners having lunch in a café What were they drinking? Vichy water! Unfortunately, for those in the restaurant business today, the avoidance of hard booze is still the preoccupation of many diners, but I think this health craze is beginning to wear off. I wonder how FOUR SEASONS has coped. What are the their relative profit percentages?
I'm not sure what restaurant(s) you owned or worked in that bestowed upon you this "hard and fast" rule, but the ones I have owned, operated and worked in have all been quite profitable across the board - food and beverage. It is true that the *margins* are deeper with liquor, but outside of a very small percentage of bars, most places that serve food can't rely solely on alcohol sales. The standard "rule" is to keep your food costs in under about 25%. There is no possible way the Four Seasons "loses" money on their food and makes up for it with their bar and wine list.
Have you looked at a Four Seasons menu? The prices are among the highest, if not the highest, in the city. They also have an incredible wine cellar, and their clientele can afford to pay high prices for those bottles. The Grill Room at the restaurant has a great bar, and it does a huge business as well.
Maybe is should just be a TD Bank branch.
I don't think there is one on that end of that side of that block, yet.
I don't think there is one on that end of that side of that block, yet.
10
As a Canadian, I can only agree. :) At least the T-D's green motif fits in, sort of..
1
I worked at the Four Seasons as a host, during college, three summers in the late '70s and early '80s. There are few experiences, as I was privileged to be part of, that reflect so fully and clearly the vitality, elegance and exuberance of New York City, which is timeless. Again, timeless. Change is often good -- not always. Anyone who lets a phenomenon like this go is astoundingly myopic. Good luck, Alex and Julian.
10
Mr. Rosen owns the building. It is his property. He has chosen to lease it to the restaurant and how chooses to no longer lease it to them. That is his right.
If Mr. Bronfman and the Seagram company wanted the Four Season to remain in perpetuity in the Seagram building, he had every opportunity to do so. He chose not to do so.
If Messrs. Niccoloni and von Bidder wanted to remain in the space in perpetuity they had every opportunity to either buy the building, buy a percentage of the building or negotiate a better lease. They did not.
This is what happens when you rent. The landlord owns it. The tenant just rents it.
New Yorkers - even the ultra wealthy - are so used to rent control and rent stabilization that they can't recognize a market transaction even when it snatches the shad roe off of their collective plates.
Now, if this were only the case for all rentals in New York, if an actual market were established, there might be affordable rents for commercial and residential tenants. What we have under rent control is some people subsidizing rent controlled tenants, and a bank, chain drug store, chain fast food restaurant and chain donut shop on every corner.
If Mr. Bronfman and the Seagram company wanted the Four Season to remain in perpetuity in the Seagram building, he had every opportunity to do so. He chose not to do so.
If Messrs. Niccoloni and von Bidder wanted to remain in the space in perpetuity they had every opportunity to either buy the building, buy a percentage of the building or negotiate a better lease. They did not.
This is what happens when you rent. The landlord owns it. The tenant just rents it.
New Yorkers - even the ultra wealthy - are so used to rent control and rent stabilization that they can't recognize a market transaction even when it snatches the shad roe off of their collective plates.
Now, if this were only the case for all rentals in New York, if an actual market were established, there might be affordable rents for commercial and residential tenants. What we have under rent control is some people subsidizing rent controlled tenants, and a bank, chain drug store, chain fast food restaurant and chain donut shop on every corner.
1
Actually, a fund that Mr. Rosen controls owns the building. There are many owners in that fund. This is the problem with diversified ownership. Some clown gets to call the shots without a material financial stake.
5
Yes. That is usually the case with a large real estate asset - it is owned by a group of investors organized as a fund or a trust or other structure.
If he controls the fund that means he has the largest stake... he has the most skin in the game and he controls the assets the fund holds.
That doesn't make him a clown. That makes him an owner. There are countless examples of funds, trusts, and companies that are controlled by majority or "special" shareholders. You are reading a newspaper produced by one such company.
You own it, you get to decide what gets done with it. Not too complicated.
If he controls the fund that means he has the largest stake... he has the most skin in the game and he controls the assets the fund holds.
That doesn't make him a clown. That makes him an owner. There are countless examples of funds, trusts, and companies that are controlled by majority or "special" shareholders. You are reading a newspaper produced by one such company.
You own it, you get to decide what gets done with it. Not too complicated.
2
As I understand it, Seagram Building is owned by RFR Realty which is an arm of Rosen's and Fuch's RFR Holding. There were other partners when Seagram Building was acquired in 2000 but they have been bought out. So Rosen and Fuchs own it completely, I believe. (Even if a fund did and Rosen has the say on operations, the fund members had to agree to that by a vote or in some way to represent their interest, so it all comes down to the same thing in my view).
The Gordinier of a generation ago, Frank Prial, memorialized the famous Luchow's:
http://www.nytimes.com/1982/03/24/garden/luchow-s-symbol-of-the-good-old...
Plus ca change, eh? The difference this time is, the Four Seasons is still operating and has a fighting chance to re-establish itself as bigger and better elsewhere. Eaters of all stripes should do everything they can to support it, both now and in (hopefully) its new incarnation.
Who was it who said there are no second acts in American life? Don't believe it.
http://www.nytimes.com/1982/03/24/garden/luchow-s-symbol-of-the-good-old...
Plus ca change, eh? The difference this time is, the Four Seasons is still operating and has a fighting chance to re-establish itself as bigger and better elsewhere. Eaters of all stripes should do everything they can to support it, both now and in (hopefully) its new incarnation.
Who was it who said there are no second acts in American life? Don't believe it.
1
re IRWAN ILLIANS's comment on the Four Seasons, my response is, with all due respect, "What bloody nonsense," or, in his native French tongue,"Quelle foutaise(What b------t)!" No developers are more greedy, avaricious than those in Europe, who, like their contemporaries everywhere, seek to rationalize every square inch of real estate they own.The Four Seasons has had its day, it has lived. Who cares today if Jacqueline Kennedy had lunch there with Prince Radziwill? The present generation, including Rosen, may have never heard of them, and could care less. As for plumbers frequenting this once great restaurant and paying the price of its "haute cuisine,"well, I will bet you could count on the fingers of one hand the number of working class folk who could afford to dine there, and actually did so. When I arrived in Paris in 1960, there was the beautiful neighborhood of Menilmontant, which overlooked the city:gone in favor of a housing development. There was the Gare MONTPARNASSE, mysterious and majestic, also gone, replaced by an indoor shopping mall.There were the charming l cafes on the RUE DE LA GAITE, demolished in favor of fast food restaurants. The GRANDES AVENUES sprouting outward from l'ETOILE at the Champs ELYSEES now look like a carbon copy, architecturally speaking, of Queens Boulevard. Dakar, once so charming it was called the "petit Paris,"now resembles a huge building block .Again, with respect, the contributor, appears to be spinning a false narrative.
5
On a cultural and architectural level, Aby Rosen is an absolute philistine (and a few other words the NY Times would not print), and I look forward to when his time is past and he has to go. He's a good example of someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
30
I agree with you -- but the problem is, after his time is long gone, he'll still have the riches amassed by being such a colossal putz. and, even if we (those of us who have a sense of history, humility, and lovers of haute cuisine) can look at ourselves in the mirror, do you think he cares what's staring back at him? He's laughing all the way to the bank, fattening up his wallet. And not with fois gras.
2
Value is determined by price in business. That's how it works. He is not a philanthropist, as a director of his company he is required in fact to maximize shareholder value. Just curious but do you regularly grant a two-thirds discount to people who claim special entitlement on goods or services you sell? If you earn a salary, would you grant a deep reduction to an employer who says his business has cultural significance?
2
RE L :Unfair to Rosen and other landlords in the city. As I have indicated, landlords are businessmen who seek to rationalize every square foot of space that they own. They are not known for being sentimentalists. Otherwise , they would not be in business for long.To call Rosen a "philistine," is absurd on its face. In the half century that I have lived in Manhattan, I have seen so many restaurants which I loved go under.(See my two other published comments on the article.)Enjoy the restaurants that you favor while they are still there, and , as we would say back on the playground,"Quit yer squawking!" (No disrespect intended).
1
They should move to New Orleans where chefs still get a chance to actually cook for people without needing to cater to "real estate tycoons."
1
I am not surprised at what appears to be the imminent closing of the FOUR SEASONS. So many good restaurants have closed their doors over the past half century that I have lived in the city such as Le Pavillon, l'Aiglon, the original Luchows on 14th street, that string of restaurants along 49th and 50th Streets on the East Side, as well as old standbys like the Madison Pub, Moby Dick Beggis, Jaeger House, Little Finland and so many others. Their passing is mourned by us "old men and women from the old school." Once a restaurant closes, and even if it tries to re open elsewhere, it is almost an article of faith, axiomatic, that it will not be successful.It's like trying to recussitate an old love affair.They seldom succeed the second time around either.
From the day the Four Seasons opened it was beautiful No need for any change
9
RE TANGO ::See my comment on the economics of what the French call, "la restauration,"or the restaurant business The last thing that any "restaurateur" needs or wants is the stiff who comes in, orders a copious meal, and then washes it down with a bottle of vittel or a single glass of wine. Later for compliments on the beautiful décor. That doesn't pay the bills. The beau ideal for any restaurant owner is a room or rooms full of Winston Churchills, or those who, like "Winnie,"shared his appreciation of the "grape and the grain." It has been said that when Churchill passed away, his liver was given a separate funeral.
I continue to be amazed at the number of comments here of the bemoaning type, as if a pillar of New York's socio-cultural heritage will crumble because this one restaurant may not be able successfully to re-locate, greed is the cause and legion today, Mr. R doesn't get it, etc., etc.
Ever heard of the Robber Barons? Todays capitalists are paragons of virtue compared to the really bad old days. Anyway, some of you must be in business or must at least sell your labour for a wage: would you discount your return by 2/3rds because a customer claims a unique status which in your mind understandably has no special claim?
This just in: it's an eatery. High-class with an acknowledged history of some social significance, but that's all. There have been, are and always will be thousands of excellent restaurants in town. If a new restaurant goes into the space to be vacated at the Seagram Building by the Four Seasons, it may yet reach new frontiers of culinary excellence and a whole new social history will commence. Think about it...
Ever heard of the Robber Barons? Todays capitalists are paragons of virtue compared to the really bad old days. Anyway, some of you must be in business or must at least sell your labour for a wage: would you discount your return by 2/3rds because a customer claims a unique status which in your mind understandably has no special claim?
This just in: it's an eatery. High-class with an acknowledged history of some social significance, but that's all. There have been, are and always will be thousands of excellent restaurants in town. If a new restaurant goes into the space to be vacated at the Seagram Building by the Four Seasons, it may yet reach new frontiers of culinary excellence and a whole new social history will commence. Think about it...
3
Clearly your sense (and sensibility) is off the mark with your comments.
You have no sense of continuity; of an institution; of the impression this restaurant has made on NYC and elsewhere; the cuisine; the fact that it's class act to it's core; It's not about the "thousands of excellent restaurants." It's about it being The FOUR SEASONS and what it represents; what's it's been, and where it's going.
The landlord is already filthy rich. Greed is propelling him. What MORE does he need? Another private jet? another house in London? Come on.
You have no sense of continuity; of an institution; of the impression this restaurant has made on NYC and elsewhere; the cuisine; the fact that it's class act to it's core; It's not about the "thousands of excellent restaurants." It's about it being The FOUR SEASONS and what it represents; what's it's been, and where it's going.
The landlord is already filthy rich. Greed is propelling him. What MORE does he need? Another private jet? another house in London? Come on.
9
Wow. I see no warrant whatsoever for limiting a person in what he can earn due to the status you and some people accord this particular restaurant. The restaurant started as and remains a private venture, just as operation of the building it is housed in always has been. What should the landlord subsidize it and the tiny percentage of people who patronize it? This seems deeply anti-democratic to me. And not that I'm one, but if every time the building owner had regard to sensibilities which have nothing to do with market value, he'd probably not have the money he does. If the Four Seasons is so valuable culturally, etc., let its patrons invest in it to allow it to pay market rent.
1
Some unsolicited advice to the Four Seasons co-owners: guys, if you succeed in re-establishing the restaurant downtown, you should change a couple of other things as well but in a creative direction. Everything must change over time a little, and the move can be a catalyst for this. Why not devote some weeks to re-creating the menus of some great disappeared New York restaurants? Their menus are available online frequently for nothing, e.g., Luchow's menus from different periods are there. You'd have to check the legals of it but once past that, this would be both a bow to Manhattan culinary history and something to attract the older and newer crowds, something different. Lots of possibilities.
1
Aby Rosen is proving to live up to the perfect Yiddish idiom: shmuck.
17
To every thing there is a season.
2
Why in the world don't they leave good (possibly great) things alone? If they decide to move Four Seasons, it will never be the same. Speaking of great things, I turned the TV on the other nightly to see Felix and Oscar in a new
program. I grew up loving F&O. Why did some dolt approve a new sitcom?
I believe they tried a black version a few years back. Dreadful.
program. I grew up loving F&O. Why did some dolt approve a new sitcom?
I believe they tried a black version a few years back. Dreadful.
3
Speaking of famous restaurants now gone, what's become of the Café des Artistes space?
2
My husband and I lunched there on our 7th wedding anniversary - we couldn't afford dinner. We were seated by the pool and treated like VIPs despite the fact that we were 20-something nobodies. Upon hearing that we were celebrating a special day, the restaurant sent over the most beautiful beehive of cotton candy decorated with violet candies and ice cream hidden in the center. Even after all these years, it remains one of our most favorite anniversary celebrations. I am sure this is one of a thousand similar stories.
Mr. Rosen, no matter how much money you have or how hard you try, you will never repeat the magic of the Four Seasons once it's gone.
Mr. Rosen, no matter how much money you have or how hard you try, you will never repeat the magic of the Four Seasons once it's gone.
10
Have all of the intelligent New York lawyers who "love the Four Seasons" forgotten that a leasehold estate can be condemned through the power of eminent domain, just like a plot of dirt for a highway offramp can be condemned.
All the the City of New York has to do, if it wants to, is condemn a long leasehold estate for the restaurant, at the real as opposed to b.s. fair market rent, and then rent the restaurant space to someone who will operate the Four Seasons as a restaurant whose interior design is aesthetically appealing to and approved by the landmark commission. The city would have to put the concession up for bid, so there could be several potential operators of the restaurant vying to take it over.
Think creatively people!
All the the City of New York has to do, if it wants to, is condemn a long leasehold estate for the restaurant, at the real as opposed to b.s. fair market rent, and then rent the restaurant space to someone who will operate the Four Seasons as a restaurant whose interior design is aesthetically appealing to and approved by the landmark commission. The city would have to put the concession up for bid, so there could be several potential operators of the restaurant vying to take it over.
Think creatively people!
2
Given the predictions of failure at a new location, the restaurant can be named Winter of my Discontent.
I only went twice to the Four Seasons. Definitely magical and soothing environment.
I only went twice to the Four Seasons. Definitely magical and soothing environment.
5
It strikes me that this is a case of biting off one's nose to spite one's face. Or, Mr. Rosen, "If I can't have it, nobody can."
12
Let the ghouls come. Any successor restaurant will fail. Unable to evoke the same awe one has on their first visit, especially on their first book sale. Maybe they can put a HM in there, a Forever 21. Imagine a texting hipster stumbling into the pool. Aber, es ist NICHT "hipster." another unique piece of new york sacrificed to the mall society.
10
When I moved to Rome, Italy in 1978, I was then enlightened to the idea of seasonal food and not just fruits and vegetables, but also meat, fish and pasta courses...Growing up in the USA in the '50's and '60's, nobody thought or cared about that...I am rather surprised that nobody here has mentioned Antonio Vivaldi's "Le Quattro Stagioni", a masterpiece of four Baroque violin concerti....
2
Oh, those poor poor rich people will have to embrace change like the rest of us lowly human beings who have watched our once bohemian, artist-friendly neighborhoods be taken over by the uber-wealthy. My heart is breaking into a million pieces.
11
What is going to be interesting, is Mr. Rosen's vision for this classic space. He is setting himself up for the most critical style and artistic review in some time.
It will be very amusing !
It will be very amusing !
9
New York City is the capital of whole world. Every time something like this is taken away, you're taking it away from everyone in the world, not just New Yorkers. Removing the Four Seasons from its home is like saying it's OK to drive a species into extinction.
14
I doubt that kids growing up in refugee camps in Kenya feel "ownership" over the Four Seasons. Hyperbole is not always best bole.
The gall of Aby Rosen, to say "their time has passed"--as if some cosmic fate, rather than his own greed, has determined this outcome.
Perhaps Rosen could have taken a cue from a fellow billionaire, Si Newhouse, and his handling of The New Yorker magazine. Some cultural institutions should be preserved, regardless of the balance sheet. Then again, Mr. Newhouse is actually from this city, and understands and appreciates such subtleties.
Perhaps Rosen could have taken a cue from a fellow billionaire, Si Newhouse, and his handling of The New Yorker magazine. Some cultural institutions should be preserved, regardless of the balance sheet. Then again, Mr. Newhouse is actually from this city, and understands and appreciates such subtleties.
26
While I am not a defender of the super rich, an iconic establishment like the Four Seasons in many ways is what NYC is all about. But sadly greedy individuals like Mr. Rosen are a perfect example of what is wrong in NYC. Greed is his middle name. Perhaps Mr. Rosen is mad because of some slight at the restaurant like not be greeted "Welcome your greatness" etc. Guys like Mr. Rosen will turn grandma into road pizza for a dollar! Perhaps the site will become a Disney store or M & M store, maybe a flag Subway. Bottom line Mr. Rosen go away, go back to Miami or maybe move to Russia, hang out with Mr. Putin. Good bye
26
Aby Rosen. Another example - if we needed one - of a person with money, but no taste.
27
There is nowhere in New York city where establishment is so inextricably linked to location as the Four Seasons Restaurant and the Seagram Building. Nowhere. (Sure, Rockefeller Center, but you can't move the RCA Building.) The City has always been about change, and the ever-shifting balance in the struggle between real estate and culture. You move here, learn quickly, adjust, and learn how to take your hits. Every once it a while, though, one hits you hard. Sad, but true, so I'm heading to 99 E. 52nd and raising a glass to Mies, Philip, Phyllis, Edgars both, Ada, Garth, Richard, Joe, Tom, Paul, Alex, Julian, Trideep, Lorenzo, WeeLouie, Pedro, Hank, Italo, Albert, Seppi, Hitch, Pecko, staffs countless, son and even ex-wife. A love letter from a New Yorker.
13
I don't understand people dismissing this gorgeous PUBLIC place as an elitist enclave. It's a beautiful, civilized, unpretentious landmark. The reason it's still going is because it has a timeless perfection and radiance. What a crazy, vulgar time we live in, when people (with and without money) confuse real elegance with snobbish luxury, or everlasting good design as something outmoded. It will be replaced with something its landlord deserves.
23
I think it's called envy.
I call it "having actual values that matter to real Americans".
don't feel so bad, new yorkers, about this tragedy fueled by greed, ego and plain old bad taste. the storied wrigley building restaurant on chicago's michigan avenue, with its raymond loewy-like interior and the little sign commanding, 'gentlemen ... jackets please,' a gorgeous place once brimming with newspapermen and advertising execs, is now a walgreen's.
9
Weird, that such a place is operating at a lost, but the financial speaks for itself, close the place, and staunch the lost. No reason why such a purported high end restaurant cannot sustain market rate rent. The landlord should not have to subsidize the restaurant.
Lots of folks reminiscing about the restaurant, but obviously they are spending their cash elsewhere, speaks volumes.
Lots of folks reminiscing about the restaurant, but obviously they are spending their cash elsewhere, speaks volumes.
1
Capitalism run amuck.
The Four Seasons is the type of place that makes New York unique, and the type of place that is rapidly disappearing from New York.
Capitalism run amuck.
The Four Seasons is the type of place that makes New York unique, and the type of place that is rapidly disappearing from New York.
Capitalism run amuck.
24
Excellent article on the warp and woof of haute dining in New York.
A check of Zagat confirms that there is a surprising number of restaurants in Manhattan dating back to the earlier 1900's and 1800's: Ike's era is a relative newbie by which to date restaurants.
As I'm a beer bar and sausage emporium kind of guy, Four Seasons and similar eateries are not a regular resort for me. Still, it is enjoyable to read of the reasons for its eminence, the experience may well rival actually being there. (I'm in no position to confirm, as yet).
All hail to the owners for seeking a new location and leaving Mr. R behind. The Four Seasons is, I have every reason to believe, bigger than the Seagram Building.
A check of Zagat confirms that there is a surprising number of restaurants in Manhattan dating back to the earlier 1900's and 1800's: Ike's era is a relative newbie by which to date restaurants.
As I'm a beer bar and sausage emporium kind of guy, Four Seasons and similar eateries are not a regular resort for me. Still, it is enjoyable to read of the reasons for its eminence, the experience may well rival actually being there. (I'm in no position to confirm, as yet).
All hail to the owners for seeking a new location and leaving Mr. R behind. The Four Seasons is, I have every reason to believe, bigger than the Seagram Building.
3
Losing the Four Seasons at its traditional location would be a shame. That said, it is certainly not unique in having been around for as long as it has -- there are around 100 restaurants and bars (maybe more, depending on what one includes) in NYC still operating that are even older, most of them neighborhood joints and near holes-in-the-wall spread out over all the boroughs, but many famous ones too (e.g. Peter Luger, Keens, Sardi's, McSorley's, Bemelmans Bar in the Carlyle, Oyster Bar, and the list goes on). Like the Four Seasons, many are imperiled by real estate values. They are all part of the historic fabric of the City and deserve patronage.
5
How about Gage & Tollner? Loved the place, and it probably is a bodega
1
I think it is the unbelievable design, no? That makes it a special kind of special.....and worthy of its place as an icon. Seems the owner doesn't worry about such things which is his right but doesn't make him correct....
He is from out of town?
He is from out of town?
2
Philip Johnson, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis; "...any Manhattan restaurant that has remained in operation since the Eisenhower administration..."
Note the names, Johnson, Eisenhower, Kennedy. How did this museum last so long; and why did landlords subsidize it for the past thirty years? When your "Red Carpet" names are people who are either dead; or nearly so (i.e., in their 80s), you really need to rethink the idea that its the job of a landlord, to subsidize memory lane.
It is, in truth not, the landlords responsibility. Any commercial lease holder has the responsibility to seek, as an objective; to use his landlord's spaces in a manner that will maximize rents and or royalties.
Of course Four Seasons was/is failing in this regard. its overbuilt and under priced. It gives its patrons too much space per person; for which they are not paying the current or future market rate, for what that space really worth. Four Seasons should have a "tour" premium that patrons pay (and it should be about equal to either lunch or dinner for four) to the museum tour that is a luncheon or a dinner at the restaurant. Or they could reduce the floor space by 30 - 40 percent; while increasing the number of patrons they serve each day.
In any case the patrons are not paying for their museum tour. And unless and until they do, the venue should close.
Note the names, Johnson, Eisenhower, Kennedy. How did this museum last so long; and why did landlords subsidize it for the past thirty years? When your "Red Carpet" names are people who are either dead; or nearly so (i.e., in their 80s), you really need to rethink the idea that its the job of a landlord, to subsidize memory lane.
It is, in truth not, the landlords responsibility. Any commercial lease holder has the responsibility to seek, as an objective; to use his landlord's spaces in a manner that will maximize rents and or royalties.
Of course Four Seasons was/is failing in this regard. its overbuilt and under priced. It gives its patrons too much space per person; for which they are not paying the current or future market rate, for what that space really worth. Four Seasons should have a "tour" premium that patrons pay (and it should be about equal to either lunch or dinner for four) to the museum tour that is a luncheon or a dinner at the restaurant. Or they could reduce the floor space by 30 - 40 percent; while increasing the number of patrons they serve each day.
In any case the patrons are not paying for their museum tour. And unless and until they do, the venue should close.
1
Oscar Wilde's words for Lord Darlington never rang truer: a cynic is "a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing."
13
Greed has spoken.
12
you sound bitter. It is one of the only places that you are not sitting ontop of other people trying to have a private conversation without the uncomfortable sense that others are paying attention, far enough apart that the manners of other diners - the smacking lips because they don't chew with their mouth closed - are not in your face, and there isn't music blasting at a high volume so you HAVE TO YELL to have a conversation. The place you describe is exactly the reason for negative dining experiences.
2
My first job after graduating law school was at a law firm housed in the Seagram Building. I was taken to the Four Seasons for my interview lunch.
Silly me, I thought EVERY Park Avenue building had a ground floor restaurant, like the Four Seasons, as their "cafeteria".
It was a wonderful lunch and I ate there several other times. I didn't realize I was eating with the 0.01% crowd.
Silly me, I thought EVERY Park Avenue building had a ground floor restaurant, like the Four Seasons, as their "cafeteria".
It was a wonderful lunch and I ate there several other times. I didn't realize I was eating with the 0.01% crowd.
13
The Rosens of the world - the power and money hungry all over the globe - respect only their obsessions. Consider the impact the mega-wealthy Chinese are having everywhere. And we are complicit with every heedless purchase we make.
37
All I can say is that, as a native New Yorker, this article reads as an encapsulated explanation of everything about New York City currently that is broken. Greedy landlords, a total lack of respect for tradition and history, the loss of discerning dining, the list goes on. We all know that NYC is about change BUT that has never before meant the total destruction of all vestiges of what came before. We don't need 100 establishments like The Four Seasons BUT WE DO need at least one. Alas, looks like we're not going to have even that for much longer. Like The Plaza Hotel, unscrupulous owners have plundered a grand space and are about to take away part of our cultural heritage. That is NOT progress in any sense of the word, it's merely depressing.
94
Oh come on. It's just business and was ever thus. Luchow's is gone and so many other greats in their day. Something replaces them. Hopefully Four Seasons will find a way to survive and the best way will be strong continued support from its custom when it reopens hopefully.
2
@ManhattanWilliam. As the inexorable excising of bastions of elegance, graciousness, and beauty--such as The Four Seasons--from the NYC landscape continues, how long will it be before the concept of "elegance, graciousness, and beauty" is unknown in our city? country? universe? This is not "merely depressing" but cultural genocide.
2
Gerry from Toronto. Notice how William from Manhattan, native New Yorker, has 60 recommends and you have only 2 ? That should explain to you how important a cultural landmark the Four Seasons is to us. We only have few institutions like this left. ie: our hearts broke when the 2nd Avenue Deli closed. Sad.
The New New York is not nearly as good as the old New York.
The New New York is not nearly as good as the old New York.
3
I had lunch at The Four Seasons with my Dad and my brother in December, 1985 to celebrate his 81st birthday. Dined in the Grill Room. I paid. Last time I had lunch with my Dad before he passed away the next summer.
December, 1989 went with my wife, my 2 children, and my brother to celebrate my wife's birthday. We dined in the Pool Room.
These are fond memories.
December, 1989 went with my wife, my 2 children, and my brother to celebrate my wife's birthday. We dined in the Pool Room.
These are fond memories.
10
Why does one buy an iconic space and then want to change it? EGO!
I'm surprised Mr. Rosen hasn't tried to rename the building fom the Seagrams Building to The Rosen Building. Or maybe that's the next step.
I'm surprised Mr. Rosen hasn't tried to rename the building fom the Seagrams Building to The Rosen Building. Or maybe that's the next step.
47
It's a gorgeous restaurant and a New York City landmark that is iconic to its time. There is no other restaurant like it and it deserves to remain. For you envious masses who insist on bashing the 1%, hey, look at the place and take an art history course. Maybe then you will understand what a special place the restaurant is. The 1% or 5% are entitled to eat where they want.
As for Mr. Rosen, Edgar Bronfman got it right. Mr. Rosen is an arrogant boor who tries to impose his poor taste on this city. Perhaps he would like to move to Miami. I think that his invitations to New York events have just dried up.
As for Mr. Rosen, Edgar Bronfman got it right. Mr. Rosen is an arrogant boor who tries to impose his poor taste on this city. Perhaps he would like to move to Miami. I think that his invitations to New York events have just dried up.
50
I liked the place, but it's become an elistist has been, New York is a great place because it keeps on changing, and let's hope it always does.
This isn't change and growth - this is slash and burn. There's a difference.
3
At first, I thought the title of the article referred to the singing group, something I might care about.
7
I take it only one has to go; so I pick Winter.
3
The food once was some of the city's best. I have the cookbook, courtesy of my grandmother. It is from the early years of the restaurant and features amazing amounts of butter and cream. Hard work, artery clogging, but entirely delicious! And with ingredients about which even many well off people in the 1960s had hardly heard.
1
A tempest in the teapot of the super-rich.
11
Ugh! Rich people problems. Maybe they could put another Chase bank, Starbucks or Duane Reade in there. I guess it will suffer the same fate as many of my treasured locations of yore.
11
Beauty belongs to everyone. The Four Seasons was a temple, the Cathedral as Jackie Onassis said. As a young man working in the restaurant business in New York, it represented the every best. Unlike France where I come from, one could make a living as a plumber and go to the Four Seasons and be lifted to heaven. It is not because the rich and powerful went there that its grace, perfectionism, elegance, should be diminished or stained. It is greed that will destroy it though. Good old fashioned American greed. One of the pleasures of going to Europe is find those old salons still standing, coffee shops in Austria, bars in Amsterdam, trattorias in Italy, and the list goes on and on, still there, holding their value, their charms to everyone. It informs the society, it makes it more human.
5
No, Subway is the latest to take over. Put in a Subway to showcase the "fresh" ingredients they use.
1
For what you get at this place it really is quite a bargain. Especially when you compare to all the new wave schlock out there. Not only great food at real persons portions, but a great sense of history. You just cannot replicate the Mad Men vibe of the place. It is one of my favorite things in the city. It cool and quiet!!
6
had lunch with my girlfriend there one day in the mid-70's. long island sound seafood platter, still remember the mignonette, veal with morels and salsify. don't quite remember dessert, but the highlight was someone coming through the pool room paging Joseph E. Levine. i have a copy of the first Four Seasons cookbook and i studied that book...i love the photo essay of the puff pastry dessert and i finally got a point in my career where i can make it.
10
And this is the sad future of this city where nothing is sacred, except the almighty dollar. Doubtless, the space will give way to yet another multi-billion dollar luxury something or the other. But there's one thing money can't buy -- and that's class.
53
The Four Seasons in some ways reminds me of the Rainbow Room. And in both cases, what changed first? The restaurant or the patrons?
1
@peter c: The landlord changed first in both cases.
2
The Four Seasons celebrates the era of Mad Men. Some bemoan the loss of that era. In the guise of Aby Rosen, it is clear that at least one truly Mad Man still survives.
6
I remember when I went to Paris as an exchange student, on the last night of our stay, our program director took us to a lavish dinner at La Coupole. There, we, a group of American teenagers, were in awe sitting and eating in the same building that Matisse, and Simone de Beauvoir and Picasso had once sat at ate. We lamented that in our country there was nothing like this. Turns out there probably was, but we so easily throw away such things in America before they get old enough to awe future generations. Never been to the Four Seasons, but sad to see it go.
52
Immediately after I was escorted by the stiff strutting attendant to our table I
realized that I was completely out of my element at the Four Seasons. Seated adjacent to the famous pool I had to admit to my wife and a friend couple that I was impressed. That lasted until we were handed our menus - then I approached something near shock.
Not only were the selections priced astronomically mine was the only one of the four which even listed those prices. How did they know to which diner the tab would fall? Holding the menu tightly I didn't realize it was layered over the table setting's brightly burning candle. Soon enough I noticed the middle of the menu turning black, then glowing red followed by full flame. So there I was in the Four Seasons, next to the world famous pool, in terror holding a torch until a quick thinking waiting pulled it from my hands and dunked it into the famous pool.
Never returned to the Four Seasons. Miss the Rainbow Room a lot more.
realized that I was completely out of my element at the Four Seasons. Seated adjacent to the famous pool I had to admit to my wife and a friend couple that I was impressed. That lasted until we were handed our menus - then I approached something near shock.
Not only were the selections priced astronomically mine was the only one of the four which even listed those prices. How did they know to which diner the tab would fall? Holding the menu tightly I didn't realize it was layered over the table setting's brightly burning candle. Soon enough I noticed the middle of the menu turning black, then glowing red followed by full flame. So there I was in the Four Seasons, next to the world famous pool, in terror holding a torch until a quick thinking waiting pulled it from my hands and dunked it into the famous pool.
Never returned to the Four Seasons. Miss the Rainbow Room a lot more.
26
I do think it is incumbent upon the diner to check that he/she can afford the restaurant they have chosen, much as it important to check that the cuisine will be something enjoyed by all of their party; undoubtedly you got the menu with the prices because you made the reservation or acted like you were in charge of the party. I like taking guests to restaurants where they do not need to worry over what they can choose, and having them receiving a menu without prices removes that problem.
I hate to be the one to tell you, but if the Four Seasons in New York is out of your price range, then a lot of other restaurants will be too, including in Chicago, not to mention in big cities all across the US and the Globe.
Personally, even when I could not afford to eat at high end restaurants regularly, I still saved up for a treat, and almost always was delighted.
I hate to be the one to tell you, but if the Four Seasons in New York is out of your price range, then a lot of other restaurants will be too, including in Chicago, not to mention in big cities all across the US and the Globe.
Personally, even when I could not afford to eat at high end restaurants regularly, I still saved up for a treat, and almost always was delighted.
4
To Ken: have you ever seen a woman given a menu with the prices? I assure you that if a woman made the reservations and marched ahead of the rest of the party, she still would not be given that menu (unless the party only included women) unless she asked for it. That trend is archaic and sexist. Not a fan.
1
Talk about the emperor's new clothes! It's a cold, ugly, soulless space, notable only as the harbinger of bad architecture to come. They can turn it into a McDonald's for all I care.
9
My small wedding party was held on the Saturday after Thanksgiving in 1977 and consisted primarily of our two large families. Alex Von Bidder was young and in charge of parties. He and his staff were extraordinarily kind to all of us including my sister-in-law with her new son carried on her back, and my youngest sister who was only 11. We were not famous nor rich, but all of us will never forget the serene yet spectacular space and the staff's most generous and elegant service. We came many months later with my parents for dinner, and Alex immediately recognized us and greeted us warmly. In 2006 we took our son to dinner there for his graduation from Cooper Union. Memories were made at The Four Seasons.
72
Felt strangely like a lament over "Mad Men" coming to a close. The dining room had not one person of color (except for the unidentified gentleman sitting next to Brooke Astor).
Charming place but from an era long gone. Mr. Rosen is right, their time has come,. Season to celebrate.
Charming place but from an era long gone. Mr. Rosen is right, their time has come,. Season to celebrate.
5
The reporter says it is unusual to find any Manhattan restaurant that has remained in operation since the Eisenhower administration (1952-60). True. However, Delmonico's, Downtown, has remained in operation since the administration of John Quincy Adams (1824-28).
3
Alas, not. Periods, including recently, when there was no Delmonico's.
1
So, is there a problem with the term "unusual" then?
The Veau d'Or? Not Delmonico's, but a charming vestige of another New York.
1
I remember when it first opened. And I recall the accolades over the years. I've been there three or four times for dinners. Food was quite fine.
But, I never got the alleged allure for its interior space. It always seemed cold and uninteresting. (I do like contemporary, clean, sleek architecture)— yet this was never a memorable experience for me.
It feels & looks like a big open cafeteria, albeit with better chairs from Knoll
and linen tablecloths.
Looking at the main slide, it would appear obvious it is for people who wish to be seen by others who wish to be seen by others who wish to be.........seen (as evidenced by one seating chart slide). Meh.
But, I never got the alleged allure for its interior space. It always seemed cold and uninteresting. (I do like contemporary, clean, sleek architecture)— yet this was never a memorable experience for me.
It feels & looks like a big open cafeteria, albeit with better chairs from Knoll
and linen tablecloths.
Looking at the main slide, it would appear obvious it is for people who wish to be seen by others who wish to be seen by others who wish to be.........seen (as evidenced by one seating chart slide). Meh.
7
There was no "alleged allure" about the room---it IS one of the most elegant spaces ever designed, in the finest tall building ever built. Power was the whole point of it and if you have a problem with that, don't bother visiting the Parthenon or the Tower of London.
14
Sometime in the late 1990s, my father had proudly arranged for an evening at the Four Seasons for his extended family in celebration of several birthdays and an anniversary. He had made reservations a month in advance, asked for special seating as it was his anniversary and called to confirm so there would be no issues upon our arrival. Once there, the management treated us horribly, initially giving us seating near the rear of the restaurant. My father, wanting this to be a special occasion for us, was willing to wait for good seating, which took about an hour an a half. When we finally sat, the waitstaff were imperious, the food overpriced and mediocre. The experience was remembered years later with anger and a certain sadness that such a positive family event was ruined by this restaurant. What comes around, goes around. Good riddance, I say!
16
Having lived in New York since 1978 and frequenting many of our city's
best dining establishments at every price point, the Four Seasons seemed
like the dining establishment of the "powerful" but more importantly
the wanna be powerful. Neither group is ever much fun to hang out with.
best dining establishments at every price point, the Four Seasons seemed
like the dining establishment of the "powerful" but more importantly
the wanna be powerful. Neither group is ever much fun to hang out with.
13
From an architect who gets to the city maybe twice a year, its a bad trip if I don't lunch at the four seasons once. It is the Piazza san Marco internalized.
32
Who cares about the restaurant? What is going to happen to that gorgeous space?
11
The restaurant and the space are one; they were designed as one; they have embodied the glamour of New York City as one for decades.
5
Glory days memory of turning heads while gliding through the restaurant many years ago.
10
Every time I read an article about Mr. Rosen and the Four Seasons, I think it would have made a good sitcom. Successful restaurateurs being harrassed and annoyed by a grumpy landlord. Being a sitcom, of course, you don't ever find out why the landlord is so single-minded in his hatred, or why he bought a building known for the very thing he wants to destroy.
57
Perhaps Mr. Rosen has too much money and he needs soemthing to do with it, I bet he'd find something to "fix" at the Roman Coliseum or the Anciet Ruins in Greece.
14
Mr. Rosen is a new/old breed of "developer" this great city can do without. As for his own aesthetic and culture-it can be summed up in one word "green". He would tear down the iconic space the Four Seasons occupies in a New York minute if he could. He cares not one bit about legacy, architecture or what it is that made New York great. It's a pity that he bought a building he barely understands. He can't do in Europe what he can do here-which is why there still is a Roman Coliseum or the Ancient Ruins in Greece. Not so for New York, well on its way to becoming the Dubai of the West, as long as tasteless, narcissistic masters of the universe run the show.
16
I find it amusing that a restaurant used by the 0.1% can't afford market rent, and when the landlord, who probably is not wealthier than the clientele, asks to raise the rent, we get all these complaints.
Here's an idea, how about the clientele form a consortium and buy the property for market value, and do whatever they want?
Here's an idea, how about the clientele form a consortium and buy the property for market value, and do whatever they want?
22
Henry's comment is absurd, the owners have to make a profit, the landlord is a jerk, and would probably raise the rent again.
Having a buyer's strike on leasing in the building could be a solution and put the landlord off his price gouging horse; and why did the Seagram family need to sell it?
This is very sad for anyone who loved great restaurants
Having a buyer's strike on leasing in the building could be a solution and put the landlord off his price gouging horse; and why did the Seagram family need to sell it?
This is very sad for anyone who loved great restaurants
3
It is interesting that people fail to notice the ravages of inequality, and are so terribly shocked when it finally comes for them.
1
Wow! I'm 52 years old and remember a few special day trips up from DC on Amtrak for a day in the city that included a meal there. I was hoping... next time I made it to New York, to share that experience with my own family and take my daughter.
It's really sad that business can't just be business. Pettiness and paternalism is what will have undone what has been one of New York's gems. After all, why couldn't Mr. Rosen just be happy to negotiate a rent amount that is satisfactory and leave it at that? It isn't as if Four Seasons isn't successful. Right?
It's really sad that business can't just be business. Pettiness and paternalism is what will have undone what has been one of New York's gems. After all, why couldn't Mr. Rosen just be happy to negotiate a rent amount that is satisfactory and leave it at that? It isn't as if Four Seasons isn't successful. Right?
38
The institutional aspects of The Four Seasons are unquantifiable and mysterious. When doing business in the city the reliability quotient of The Four Seasons was unmatched anywhere. When taking your wife to dinner nothing comes close and today, week long visits to the city requires two dinner minimum.
5
Every article I read in the NYT highlights income disparity and how horrible the "1 percent" are. Now you run a piece about a restaurant that even a guy making $500K per year would think twice about entering. Lets put a low cost restaurant to feed the poor in the place. Be true to your beliefs NYT!!!
9
Sure Bill, let's turn it into a Micky D's it's not about the food it's about the place itself, it is a landmark and is being admired as such. Let's board up the windows and install a factory corporation driven restaurant.
15
And while we're at it, we should recast the Ritz Carlton and maybe even Rockefeller Center into homeless shelters, right? Most famous NYC places could receive a similar do over.
Frankly, I couldn't care less if the 1% loses a gathering spot. But New York is a city of many architecturally significant, singular places and the Four Seasons happens to be one of them. It may not be the most well known outside of Manhattan, but many worthwhile places in other cities are not that known outside of those cities, either. Whether in Rome, Paris or Des Moines, it is worth recognizing places that have a special history or design.
You don't have to actually go in the Four Seasons or every other famous NYC place to know that individually and collectively, they make the difference and they are worth preserving whenever possible.
Frankly, I couldn't care less if the 1% loses a gathering spot. But New York is a city of many architecturally significant, singular places and the Four Seasons happens to be one of them. It may not be the most well known outside of Manhattan, but many worthwhile places in other cities are not that known outside of those cities, either. Whether in Rome, Paris or Des Moines, it is worth recognizing places that have a special history or design.
You don't have to actually go in the Four Seasons or every other famous NYC place to know that individually and collectively, they make the difference and they are worth preserving whenever possible.
18
>
Geeeez I'm going to cry. If you are worried about this you need a complete psychological workup.
Geeeez I'm going to cry. If you are worried about this you need a complete psychological workup.
11
Wow! My husband and I had a pre-theater dinner at The Four Seasons last night in the Pool Room and we were so happy to be in such a serene and beautiful space. The service and the food matched the elegant decor and we were thinking about having our next celebration there with our family. How sad to think that experience will be missed. We will follow The Four Seasons wherever they alight next.
14
Come on Aby, be the big man and do something right for NYC -- a city that has certainly done right by you -- and let the Four Seasons stay.
52
The Four Seasons is a rare space. The level of clam, grace and peacefulness in the Pool Room is unmatched by any other space in New York. I doubt it can be replicated. I will miss it.
34
To everything there is a season--turn turn turn. That sad picture in the slideshow of Brooke Astor celebrating her 101st birthday is a perfect metaphor for the restaurant. Besides, it was the Seagram building itself that made the space grand--not the restaurant.
3
And the level of calm is sweet, too. But maybe that's where the term "happy as a clam" came from. It's such a special place even clams are happy to die there.
2
I have not been a regular at either the Pool Room or the Grill Room, but there are plenty of people there who are neither regulars nor .1% ers. It is a special place for celebrations for us and our children, to marvel at the elegance and clarity of International Style architecture brought indoors. Also, to enjoy truly professional, attentive service for all (no first names, no 'no problem's). Perhaps the menu has gone trendy, but I am sure classics, that one wouldn't have every day, remain available. I could do without the complimentary cotton candy at desert, but it has become a tradition. Rosen is a boor, while von Bidder and Niccolini are unrealistic to think they can re-create The Four Seasons without the mid-century design, which is about as democratic as it could be. The sour, arrogant comments from the left are completely inappropriate.
56
I believe it is Mr. Rosen who needs to go.
77
If Mr. Rosen thinks he can replace this grand space and atmosphere with a restaurant of his making, he's as foolish as he seems to be. Guys like this, it's only about the money. Good luck keeping a viable replacement in that space with triple the rent. Ugh.
90
At least Mr. Rosen doesn't talk about "tradition" or "conservatism" in shoving the Four Seasons from its space. It's just money and not ideology (or idiotology).
New York landlords have a tradition of being penny-wise and pound foolish. A great example from my time is Sutter's on West 10th in Greenwich Village. Around 1965 my parents drove me down to see "The Fantasticks" (now also gone from its long-term home), and they waited at a "French bakery" across from the (now gone) Women's House of Detention. Two years later the House of Detention was demolished and the neighboring courthouse was transformed into a marvelous neighborhood library. Sutter's landlord raised the rent some fantastic amount, so Sutter's left--and the lot remained vacant for some ten years.
Restaurants--even prestigious, historic luxury establishments--are a difficult business. I can only anticipate that the successor to the Four Seasons space will have a much shorter run.
New York landlords have a tradition of being penny-wise and pound foolish. A great example from my time is Sutter's on West 10th in Greenwich Village. Around 1965 my parents drove me down to see "The Fantasticks" (now also gone from its long-term home), and they waited at a "French bakery" across from the (now gone) Women's House of Detention. Two years later the House of Detention was demolished and the neighboring courthouse was transformed into a marvelous neighborhood library. Sutter's landlord raised the rent some fantastic amount, so Sutter's left--and the lot remained vacant for some ten years.
Restaurants--even prestigious, historic luxury establishments--are a difficult business. I can only anticipate that the successor to the Four Seasons space will have a much shorter run.
Preservation Commission got this one right. And Rosen sounds like a child.
90
While I'm not a genius like Mark Rothko was, I agree with him that this restaurant is still pretentious and inappropriate. David Boies can eat there seven days a week for all I care. Mike Whitman must spend all day looking at himself in a mirror.
I ate there once. Once was enough. I prefer to give my money to charity, rather than sit around with a bunch of self-important people who spend most of their lives stealing, and give back Rockefeller dimes.
I ate there once. Once was enough. I prefer to give my money to charity, rather than sit around with a bunch of self-important people who spend most of their lives stealing, and give back Rockefeller dimes.
25
There are 2 kitchens, george, 1 for the people they care about and 1 for the ones they don't - the ones the put out side the main theater. I, like you, ate there once and by the end had to endure my boyfriend marching the maitre'd through the entire restaurant going off on a tirade about how awful just about every aspect of our evening was. Nothing was good. Treated like tourists - given an ASHTRAY souvenir. Ugh. Still gives my shudders. But I'm convinced certain other "beautiful" people were having an entirely different experience. Ironically, tho, we probably actually paid more for our meal then they did. Never again.
7
99.9% of New Yorkers neither know nor care about the Four Seasons. Spare us the tribulations of the .1%.
20
Hey Ray, I am part of that 99.99% so you do not speak for me, it is an architectural dream. Your envy is showing. It is not a tribulation of the 1% and if you took the time to get off your smartphone and take a look around the city in which you live you'd appreciate the space for what it is. Nevermind, go back to your selfies and texting that's much more important.
62
I am an architect in the city, and I care more about the interior architecture than the restaurant as a business or a place where deals are made by the wealthy. The space is a beautiful, modernist interior which is going to be destroyed because of a greedy landlord. I find this sad. I also wonder where he is going to find a restaurateur who can make the finances work at $3M/year in rent. It simply is not viable. If a restaurant like Four Seasons cannot make it work, no one can.
27
Le Grand Vefour is arguably the Four Seasons of Paris. It's been around since the time Napoleon was First Consul, perhaps even a bit earlier. I describe it to friends as the most beautiful restaurant in the world. This being Paris, the place is of course protected. I've been eating there for decades, always more for the place than the food, which has varied from very good to mediocre to great and even sublime. The last time I ate there I sat at Jean Cocteau's table, gazing out at the noble colonnade of Palais Royale. No small part of my deep satisfaction with the experience was the knowledge that--again, this being Paris--all of this, that all of this would endure.
2
Who are these New Yorkers crying their eyes out over the Four Seasons? I cannot say I know a single person who lives here who has ever set foot in there. Then again, I do not know many elderly Upper East Siders.
9
So, because you and no one in your circle of friends has ever been there you cannot see why the closing of such a storied and revered institution is noteworthy?
Believe it or not, it's not just about you.
Believe it or not, it's not just about you.
77
It's just an article, take it easy..
6
I am not sure why you think jumping to bizarre conclusions or personal attacks is useful or appropriate in this situation, Roger Binion. I agree, it is not just about me, or my circle of friends for that matter. I never said it was.
2
For crying out loud, what a waste of newsprint or digital ink this article is. Dow e seriously care if this place closes? Moves? I don't, and I'll
bet the earthquake victims in Nepal don't either. On to something important!
bet the earthquake victims in Nepal don't either. On to something important!
15
It's an architectural and cultural landmark in NYC. We should care.
72
And yet you took the time to read the article and to comment on it.
The people who work at the Four Seasons, I'm sure, are rather interested in the fate of their work place. The owners as well. The people who supply the restaurant with food. Take care of the linens. Provide the dinner ware and cutlery. The florists who provide the flowers.
One can lament the possible closing of a New York City institution while also reading about, and donating funds to help the victims, the Nepal earthquake.
The people who work at the Four Seasons, I'm sure, are rather interested in the fate of their work place. The owners as well. The people who supply the restaurant with food. Take care of the linens. Provide the dinner ware and cutlery. The florists who provide the flowers.
One can lament the possible closing of a New York City institution while also reading about, and donating funds to help the victims, the Nepal earthquake.
40
@ NYCJS, at last a voice of reason.
6
It is sad when New York treasures are neither understood nor appreciated by the newcomers whose values are purely driven by money. Isn't Mr Rosen the developer who wanted to build a residential tower across from The Carlyle? Will always remember a celebration given by Joel A. Rosenthal at the Four Seasons for his glorious exhibit at the Met...the food, the wine and the hot dogs. New York simplicity in surroundings of pure luxury. That's the Four Seasons!
26
"Newcomers"? I was born and raised in the Bronx. Spent most of my 82 years on the Upper West Side. Never ate at the Four Seasons or even thought about it and most likely couldn't afford it. Anyway my current diverse, middle class, safe, clean, reasonably priced, retirement community, central Riverdale, has many excellent, moderately priced restaurants of varied cuisines, and we can walk to all of them.
No, I'm not suggesting that y'all move here. It's pretty much full up thanks.
No, I'm not suggesting that y'all move here. It's pretty much full up thanks.
6
atdcom
In agreement, newbies to the city are far too busy checking their texts and posting to fb and think that they are important, they are deluded. They think they're special. They don't see what's around them in this once beautiful city. The transplants are too concerned with social media to take an interest in works of art and amazing architecture around them. Feel pity for they are so ensconced it their tiny little worlds to care about anything but themselves.
In agreement, newbies to the city are far too busy checking their texts and posting to fb and think that they are important, they are deluded. They think they're special. They don't see what's around them in this once beautiful city. The transplants are too concerned with social media to take an interest in works of art and amazing architecture around them. Feel pity for they are so ensconced it their tiny little worlds to care about anything but themselves.
14
Puhleeze. Perhaps a spot next to Fraunces Tavern would suit.
In 1959 new world cooking was perhaps a gleam in the eye of a few teenage chefs. The culinary world is a much evolved one since then.
The folks who are losing this clubhouse surely must have others. And I would be surprised if a goodly number of the heartbroken haven't at some time decided that a perfectly fine old house out east was nothing more than a tear down.
In 1959 new world cooking was perhaps a gleam in the eye of a few teenage chefs. The culinary world is a much evolved one since then.
The folks who are losing this clubhouse surely must have others. And I would be surprised if a goodly number of the heartbroken haven't at some time decided that a perfectly fine old house out east was nothing more than a tear down.
7
When one wonders why America seems to have little respect for tradition or anything old, why we need to constantly tear down and rebuild, it's in part because there's always some guy like Mr Rosen standing next to a bulldozer, eager to replace the old with the new regardless of the former's timeless qualities.