Well the Syrian Army already took Tadmor(Arabic for Palmyra) back, And I'm very much sure that the US will be 'bombing the terrorists' very shortly, but of course it will miss as always and another oil sites will be destroyed instead.
2
Cradle of civilization is being overrun, looted and destroyed. It is a loss for the whole of humanity. The impotence of our civilization and taking sides with the wrong side is the reason for such an iunfathomable loss.
8
A relatively strong argument in favor of not repatriating artworks to the countries of their origin. Museums need to have diverse collections to represent the history of civilization, so that those who would destroy it can be thwarted.
8
We were told that ISIS had 6000 fighters. Now it is 22,000. Can someone explains to me how with US Iraq support and Russian and Iran Syria support, ISIS seems able to defeat the armies of these countries. Something is wrong is wrong with this picture.
15
The Saudi lobby is very powerful in Washington and it is sabotaging the effort to fight ISIS at every step. There is always an excuse not to do more in Iraq and there are always suggestions that the problem is not as bad as it is.
Since the end of the Cold War the US has had no real adversary and to fill up the vacuum the neocons have resorted to inventing enemies. It is no longer enough that a government is not hostile to the US: instead it has to actively obey US demands. In Syria we see the limits of this policy as there is both an appointed enemy and a real one. Until now Obama has stuck to the neocons who don't want to solve this dilemma.
Since the end of the Cold War the US has had no real adversary and to fill up the vacuum the neocons have resorted to inventing enemies. It is no longer enough that a government is not hostile to the US: instead it has to actively obey US demands. In Syria we see the limits of this policy as there is both an appointed enemy and a real one. Until now Obama has stuck to the neocons who don't want to solve this dilemma.
10
Why I have to repeat myself but if someone doesn't we will end up in the same mess the George W Bush and Dick Cheney brought us with their lies.
History and science tells us that for every action there is a reaction and those actions and reactions have an indefinite shelf life.
We are seeing the reaction right now with ISIS and what is happening all over the middle east and far east.
History and science tells us that for every action there is a reaction and those actions and reactions have an indefinite shelf life.
We are seeing the reaction right now with ISIS and what is happening all over the middle east and far east.
6
Anne Barnard and Hwaida Saad lose no opportunity to politicize this event. Not one mention of the heroic resistance by the Syrian army and local defense units to oppose IS during the last 4 days in which some 100 lives were lost. The US role in the destruction of Syria has been criminal. Recall the US forces protected the oil ministry in Iraq while leaving the museum in Baghdad open to massive looting and destruction.
6
Looks like our western and eastern leaders will wake up only when destruction in their own Home starts . When ISIS get hold of IRAQ ,Syria then all followers of ISlam will rise up as ISIS your area and will do same what they are doing IN IRAQ. When our leaders will understand Its evil i culture of arabs where they don't like to work and learn loot under the name of their GOD is way of life.
2
The last successful wartime Democratic president was FDR (aided by future Republican president Dwight Eisenhower). Since then, especially in Vietnam, when the Commander in Chief is a Democrat, the results are disasterous.
5
So you think the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as conducted by the Bush Administration, were well run? Interesting.
10
Yeah, right. Lets hear it for that brilliant commander in chief, George W. Let's have more GOP warmongers, please. We're not in enough of a mess already.
11
Thank you Bush family, for liberating Iraq from its former awful stability.
14
I think we can all agree that we have seen enough of the Bushes in public life!
19
My takeaway from this article, what caught my eye, is the point that Daesh is selling artifacts from the sites they destroy to finance their operations.
Wouldn't that make anyone who purchases and gets caught with these things abettors of Daesh and therefore supporters of Terrorism?
Those opposing Daesh have regulations about such things and supporting terrorism is punishable by law (at least here in the USA).
Wouldn't that make anyone who purchases and gets caught with these things abettors of Daesh and therefore supporters of Terrorism?
Those opposing Daesh have regulations about such things and supporting terrorism is punishable by law (at least here in the USA).
2
Really? You'll be amazed to find out how many of these artifacts are been sold in the US soil by US soldiers and citizens alike.
‘US illegally obtained and kept thousands of Iraq’s cultural treasures’
http://rt.com/op-edge/iraq-war-cultural-artifacts-553/
Spoils of War:
The Antiquities Trade and the Looting of Iraq
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ELI401A.html
‘US illegally obtained and kept thousands of Iraq’s cultural treasures’
http://rt.com/op-edge/iraq-war-cultural-artifacts-553/
Spoils of War:
The Antiquities Trade and the Looting of Iraq
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ELI401A.html
3
Man's inhumanity to man cannot be 'understood" we say it when there are no words to describe pure evil
ISIS behavior is pure evil and they are not leaders. They are followers Followers of the extremes of Islamic writings
If they take hatchets and hammers and bombs to palmyra will the Assad government step in and stop them To destroy these and other ancient temples and remains is to destroy history and remake it in their image. And they will not stop
ISIS behavior is pure evil and they are not leaders. They are followers Followers of the extremes of Islamic writings
If they take hatchets and hammers and bombs to palmyra will the Assad government step in and stop them To destroy these and other ancient temples and remains is to destroy history and remake it in their image. And they will not stop
3
It is a shame that this great historic site is under threat of destruction by a bunch of thugs. There is nothing we can do about it. It is too bad that we did not think through the possibilities before we drove Iraq back to the dark ages with our shock and awe, thereby creating this mass of human destruction in the Mideast. Too bad.
8
Don'y worry 1400 yrs and they have destroyed 20 great cultures of the world already many languages and many cities . All converts to islam had better life and different culture. 300,000 temples in india were destroyed many indian University burned in india as book had no mention of ISlam and their God .
3
If you think the US has a problem think about Turkey.
1
Turkey is not innocent. It did open his borders to foreign fighters to fight Assad.
3
First of all, we must understand that Obama's inaction led to the destruction of the world's values although he claimed that he would fight against global terrorism repeatedly. It's interesting to know he did it intentionally or not.
5
President Obama will always be awake to the destruction of Humanity, while we drag our heels and impede his every action in his fight to hound these global terrorists into the ground. We remain idle and choose to stay in a rut, but the President continues to go forth and is not planning to look back at those of us who are living in the graveyards of Prophets and the Past.
The Saudis must be confronted by America and all western nations, all civilized nations to stop the barbarity of their minions: ISIS. We have all had enough of this charade.
8
Another disappointing article about the Syrian conflict. Anne Barnard and Hwaida Saad essentially blames the Asad government for the disaster that is now Syria. Here’s a thought, prior to March 2011, how was Syria any different from our good friends in the Gulf? Or, just think how much better Syria is now than prior to March 2011. Our destruction of Saddam Hussein did not accomplish any of the goals used to rationalize the invasion. The present Gulf kingdoms war on Iran through the proxy war in Syria came about because Iran appeared to gain an advantage with the Shiite controlled Baghdad. The extremists that now are set to topple Asad promises to bring only further troubles.
5
If Assad falls, Lebanon is next and maybe Jordan.
4
One of the main advantages ISIS has in relation to its enemies, is its simple and clear set of values however bad they might be, something the West lacks, and that’s why it talks, talks and talks.
Comparing today’s West with that of the mid 1940s, there is a big difference, since from then on it has abandoned the values it had, considering them outdated, but without putting anything to replace them, so Westerners simply lost the firm basis to part from for decisionmaking, and this handicap spilled over to other nations, like Syria. It is the other side of the coin.
Comparing today’s West with that of the mid 1940s, there is a big difference, since from then on it has abandoned the values it had, considering them outdated, but without putting anything to replace them, so Westerners simply lost the firm basis to part from for decisionmaking, and this handicap spilled over to other nations, like Syria. It is the other side of the coin.
5
When does Obama take responsibility for Isis being allowed to run amok everywhere with impunity? At commencement for the Coast Guard Obama went on and on about global warming!! Sure it's easy to keep blaming Bush/Cheney for the on going trainwreck but isn't this Obama's headache now? It's time to put up or shut up!!
7
ISIS has no sense of human civilisation and sees everything that pre-dates Islam as nothing of significance. It enjoyed the publicity it received, when it demolished ancient sites in Iraq not long ago. Now this acute concern from UNESCO over Palmyra would only prompt the savages to make the destruction of its ancient ruins a priority, as they take pride in challenging and horrifying the international community.
9
I don't know what fighting ISIS would look like. At this point that would involve one or all of these: American boots on the ground by the thousands in Iraq and maybe parts of Syria; bombing and killing many civilians as well as destroying historic sites; maybe going it alone or with only a few allies coming along; the US paying out billions for another costly war with unclear lines to define victory or even come to some kind of stability. Blaming Mr. Obama for not having a good and workable and doable (and presumably clean, non-deadly, and not expensive) plan is nonsense. I haven't yet heard any good answers out of anyone.
13
We created the instability. We now step up with thousands of U.S. soldiers, defeat ISIS and occupy the area for at least 50 years.
Anne-Marie Hislop
Not only do we have a 'lone' President but we may be seeing our 'last' one.
Not only do we have a 'lone' President but we may be seeing our 'last' one.
1
In terms of the Ruins of Palmyra, the world and the United States must step up to protect this historic world landmark if nothing else. It would be a terrible and shameful reflection on worldly inaction to stand by and do nothing.
2
Aspen
There is no stopping these gangsters and thugs who have a lust for bloodshed, and who will destroy for the pleasure of destroying anything of beauty, anything human that stands in their way. They have no real name, or ideology or faith that is recognizable in our civilization. They will continue to loot and plunder, while the world watches in fear. Unless, unless we wake up to the harsh reality that a concerted effort needs to be taken by humanity to put an end to this great evil, one not seen since fascism rose to power in the 30s and it nearly took over everything that makes us human. A call has been launched across the borders of our earth to rise and fight this mob. Never is history have so many been needed to put an end to these terrorists.
There is no stopping these gangsters and thugs who have a lust for bloodshed, and who will destroy for the pleasure of destroying anything of beauty, anything human that stands in their way. They have no real name, or ideology or faith that is recognizable in our civilization. They will continue to loot and plunder, while the world watches in fear. Unless, unless we wake up to the harsh reality that a concerted effort needs to be taken by humanity to put an end to this great evil, one not seen since fascism rose to power in the 30s and it nearly took over everything that makes us human. A call has been launched across the borders of our earth to rise and fight this mob. Never is history have so many been needed to put an end to these terrorists.
5
Please explain how the United States should accomplish this and how much money and how many lives would this be worth?
4
Excue but wasn't it Obama's promise to end our involvement in Iraq during his 2008 campaign for the White House that sealed the deal for so many voters? So why all the long faces? You got what you wanted--no more American boots on the ground in Iraq. No one ever heard of ISIS until the first horrific beheading became page one news. Besides a majority of you seem to want Iraq to fall apart into its pre World War I religious and ethnic subdivisions. It's a little too late for buyers remorse now.
6
ISIS is largely lead by the Sunni's who were thrown out of the Iraq government during Bush's removal of the Bath party for the US government. The Shia we installed accomplished a massive campaign of revenge and marginalization against the Sunni's achieved by a campaign with many similarities to the ISIS activities. This was a result of Bush's actions not Obama's. And of course we could have continued to prop up the Shia's for eternity and allow them to exterminate and marginalized the Sunni's but do you think that was the right thing to do?
2
Consequently you're also complaining the fact why the US militaries went to Irak in 2003? The best answers would probably come from M. G.W. Bush or M. Collin Powell. In any case they opened the terrific Pandora's box which results are still going on to-day!
1
The behaviour of Obama was predictable from the people he hung around with before is election. Membership in a hater church for 20 years and his known and persistent outreach to our enemies and desertion of our friends. No foreign leaders respect him and have been waiting for years for the US to show weakness so they could exploit it. He is by far the worst president ever elected.
5
The Obama plan for defeating ISIS in Iraq, but in particular in Syria, is like a spoiled child that that despite the difficulty of the situation insists on having things done exactly to his liking. In Syria this meant a strategy to ignore and dismiss all the effective fighting groups there that were already fighting, and instead to build from scratch America's own personal fighting force.
And in Iraq it was almost the same thing. To build from scratch a force based on arming Sunni tribes despite the fact that they have yet to fight a day and many hate the Iraqi government.
And spoiled children for whom nothing but the ideal will do, also believe that that things actually working as they wish is a real possibility and not just a pipe dream.
And this is exactly what the Syrian strategy was. To build from scratch a "moderate" fighting force that will serve the objectives of the US and more than two years down the road they are first training the first 3000 fighters in a force that they admit won't be ready for a few years.
And its almost the same in Iraq where the US will not fight together with the most competent forces, the Shiite militias and they are willing for the battle to be lost rather than to have Iran take any part in the battle.
So the objective is not to defeat ISIS, and certainly not at all costs, but to try to defeat them based on non existent forces in Syria and something pretty close to that in Iraq. Which in effect is a strategy to actually allow ISIS to win.
And in Iraq it was almost the same thing. To build from scratch a force based on arming Sunni tribes despite the fact that they have yet to fight a day and many hate the Iraqi government.
And spoiled children for whom nothing but the ideal will do, also believe that that things actually working as they wish is a real possibility and not just a pipe dream.
And this is exactly what the Syrian strategy was. To build from scratch a "moderate" fighting force that will serve the objectives of the US and more than two years down the road they are first training the first 3000 fighters in a force that they admit won't be ready for a few years.
And its almost the same in Iraq where the US will not fight together with the most competent forces, the Shiite militias and they are willing for the battle to be lost rather than to have Iran take any part in the battle.
So the objective is not to defeat ISIS, and certainly not at all costs, but to try to defeat them based on non existent forces in Syria and something pretty close to that in Iraq. Which in effect is a strategy to actually allow ISIS to win.
6
The problem with supporting some of "the various fighting groups" in Syria, i.e., what folks called "the good guys" is there is no score card to tell who they are. In the 1970s we supported the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan - armed and trained them - then after the Soviets pulled out, out of the group we had supported arose the Taliban and al Qaeda including bin Laden. Look how well that turned out.
7
Unfortunate as it may be, we are all linked together when it comes to watching this blot on humanity put an end to anything that is civilized. Nothing pleases these dead souls to be called by a name, given a label because they thrive on being recognized as a group.
In listening to my depressed Iraqi friend now at an elderly age sound so forlorn over the loss of Ramadi, who wonders if it is going to take these thugs to destroy America for us to wake up, there were few words of comfort to offer her, as she nears the end of her life.
Now Palmyra where I will call her again, to remind her that she is my 'family', that we are in this together and that while she believes we are seeing the end of Christianity, we are still human. She no longer knows where her relatives are in this world of ours today, and I can only remind her of the impact she has shown towards our friends and colleagues in the humanitarian community. The impact of her life well led, her courage, her faith and her willingness to always go a further mile to help those in need over the many decades. Words, you will say, but from the heart while thinking of her late brother, an eminent scholar of the Middle East who left an important legacy behind.
In listening to my depressed Iraqi friend now at an elderly age sound so forlorn over the loss of Ramadi, who wonders if it is going to take these thugs to destroy America for us to wake up, there were few words of comfort to offer her, as she nears the end of her life.
Now Palmyra where I will call her again, to remind her that she is my 'family', that we are in this together and that while she believes we are seeing the end of Christianity, we are still human. She no longer knows where her relatives are in this world of ours today, and I can only remind her of the impact she has shown towards our friends and colleagues in the humanitarian community. The impact of her life well led, her courage, her faith and her willingness to always go a further mile to help those in need over the many decades. Words, you will say, but from the heart while thinking of her late brother, an eminent scholar of the Middle East who left an important legacy behind.
2
When you do not stay the course bad things happen. I am glad Putin does not control Afghanistan and neither does the taliban thanks to Bush.
1
Only way this will work is if the US occupies the middle east. The US will NOT get the military of IRAQ and Syria to fight for US ideals. Getting rid of ISIS is something the US cares about more than middle easterners care about. The middle easterners don't have it in them to fight for US ideals.....even if it benefits them in the end
2
ibeetb
Perhaps the Middle East will not fight for US ideals, but this American still remembers an Arab woman holding in her arms her young son who died, calling on the name of Obama, while she sat on a mountain far away, asking for his help, her last hope.
Perhaps the Middle East will not fight for US ideals, but this American still remembers an Arab woman holding in her arms her young son who died, calling on the name of Obama, while she sat on a mountain far away, asking for his help, her last hope.
Whatever your feelings about ISIS, Syria, Iran, Iraq, etc., it remains that precious antiquities are at risk. ISIS may destroy those antiquities, and this must be prevented for the benefit of humanity.
5
No. Not worth the loss of American lives.
1
No time to think if Assad should be helped or not in Syrian, Mr Obama, it is time to interfere just now. Palmyra has to be saved!
2
President Obama asked that we help to save the lives of Syrian children not so long ago, but we did not want to hear what he had to say, and turned our backs on him once again.
He will never forget the 'Sparrows of Gaza' in the Middle East, nor will this American when we put our children in the line of fire.
He will never forget the 'Sparrows of Gaza' in the Middle East, nor will this American when we put our children in the line of fire.
No one seems to be asking who is behind these successes. We now can see that the result of the new alliance between Saudi Arabia and Turkey under the new king Salman is bearing fruit. Since they decided to increase support, training and funding for various terrorist groups, some like al-Nusra Front are also supported by Israel, we have seen a series of successes both in Syria and Iraq. The Saudis are now spreading their extreme Wahhabi version of Islam on two fronts, by bombing Yemen and intensifying assistance to terrorists in Iraq and Syria.
Those who think that if the terrorists win and Assad is removed the conflict will stop are sadly mistaken. Initially, Western leaders imagined that if the Taliban conquered the whole of Afghanistan everything would be rosy and pipelines would bring oil and gas from Central Asia to Karachi, but once the terrorists succeed they have other ambitions as we saw with the Al Qaeda atrocity on 9/11.
Instead of keeping quiet about Saudi, Turkish and Israeli plan to destroy Syria and Iraq, the West should tell its "allies" to stop their murderous campaigns. Otherwise, soon the whole of Europe and even the United States will face a much greater danger. It is time to stop this madness. Enough is enough.
Those who think that if the terrorists win and Assad is removed the conflict will stop are sadly mistaken. Initially, Western leaders imagined that if the Taliban conquered the whole of Afghanistan everything would be rosy and pipelines would bring oil and gas from Central Asia to Karachi, but once the terrorists succeed they have other ambitions as we saw with the Al Qaeda atrocity on 9/11.
Instead of keeping quiet about Saudi, Turkish and Israeli plan to destroy Syria and Iraq, the West should tell its "allies" to stop their murderous campaigns. Otherwise, soon the whole of Europe and even the United States will face a much greater danger. It is time to stop this madness. Enough is enough.
6
It appears that those neighbors in the region are not too concerned. Surely the middle eastern neighborhood could form a coalition to defeat ISIS. Or maybe ISIS is the coalition.
7
Now we are giving the army of Iraq rockets, soon to be abandoned, and used by Isis against them and cultural treasures.
stop the money, stop the insanity.
stop the money, stop the insanity.
8
We have two failed presidential policies in a row. Bush for not figuring that over throwing Saddam was going to be easy. Two, Obama doubling down on defeat when he skedaddled out of Iraq before it's government was ready to leave the nest......both were told otherwise but both were blinded by ideology.
3
While President Obama may not be blind to the power of ideology, he remains foremost a humanitarian and a visionary; one with little support and deemed weak by the greater majority, which fails to understand that the weakness is to be found in its people who have rarely supported him, and never will, in a concerted effort to achieve peace among the nations of this world who remain more divided and conflicted than ever in front of this great evil for which there is no name, while we watch the spread of global terrorism.
1
If we think that the situation is bad now, wait for what will happen in five to ten years. If the world sits back and does nothing, ISIL will take over Damascus/Syria and perhaps even Baghdad. At that point they will be ready for their ultimate nemesis and the enemy of all Arabs: Israel. When that day comes, a total transformation will happen: ALL Arab countries and Iran will want ISIL to succeed. Bibi, will have to launch.
At that point, Bush will have what he wants: It will be the day of the second coming.
Here Bush's schedule back in November 2013:
"Next week, former President George W. Bush is scheduled to keynote a fundraiser in Irving, Texas, for the Messianic Jewish Bible Institute, a group that trains people in the United States, Israel, and around the world to convince Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah. The organization's goal: to "restore" Israel and the Jews and bring about about the second coming of Christ."
Mission accomplished.
At that point, Bush will have what he wants: It will be the day of the second coming.
Here Bush's schedule back in November 2013:
"Next week, former President George W. Bush is scheduled to keynote a fundraiser in Irving, Texas, for the Messianic Jewish Bible Institute, a group that trains people in the United States, Israel, and around the world to convince Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah. The organization's goal: to "restore" Israel and the Jews and bring about about the second coming of Christ."
Mission accomplished.
2
Very frankly, I believe we are in for a real international coalition to stop the madness. As ISIS advances, creating greater regional instability, the likelihood becomes greater.
Surely even the most idiotic GOP presidential hopeful - or indeed a Cheney - can say that Iraq/Syria is better off without Saddam. I'll make it simple for them. Saddam was bad, this is worse. Much worse. Now, apologise.
7
ISIL needs to be exterminated. Too bad no one has the guts to do something so necessary. So I guess we can say goodbye to yet more cultural treasures thanks to the Caliphate of Filth.
2
Why are US and EU so sticky to remove Assad from power? It is mess everywhere. Look what happened to Libya, Yemen, Syria, Iraq!
Very bad US formula:
FRA>ISLAMIC FRONT>ASSAD>ISIS
Egypt has quickly rolled back to authoritarian regime, because the people are not ready for democracy there (yes it is so!). The transition should be gradual in the line with changes in all sphere of societies: economy, education at first.
Very bad US formula:
FRA>ISLAMIC FRONT>ASSAD>ISIS
Egypt has quickly rolled back to authoritarian regime, because the people are not ready for democracy there (yes it is so!). The transition should be gradual in the line with changes in all sphere of societies: economy, education at first.
4
It's almost certain that ISIS will destroy another global cultural heritage in Palmyra, as they have done elsewhere. What a tragic loss for everyone. But what is most tragic are the irrational conclusions that religions enforce upon their believers whether it's Galileo or Copernicus being persecuted for telling the truth or ISIS destroying treasured artifacts that will be gone forever. No religion is free from its own misinformed biases based upon "interpretation" of its true tenets.
2
Our tax dollars at work.
Lies about “weapons of mass destruction” and Iraq being a haven for terrorists in 2003 have led to the collapse and chaos of Iraq and Syria in 2015.
ISIS comes from that US-instigated collapse and chaos.
Now as a side effect, our tax dollars are about to destroy Palmyra, as they did Nimrud in Iraq.
ISIS and US foreign policy make me think of the scary Old Testament deity in Genesis 11:1-9, “The Tower of Babel” (New International Version): “Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar [Mesopotamia] and settled there.
…Then they said, ‘Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.’
But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, ‘If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.’
So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it was called Babel—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world…”
Lies about “weapons of mass destruction” and Iraq being a haven for terrorists in 2003 have led to the collapse and chaos of Iraq and Syria in 2015.
ISIS comes from that US-instigated collapse and chaos.
Now as a side effect, our tax dollars are about to destroy Palmyra, as they did Nimrud in Iraq.
ISIS and US foreign policy make me think of the scary Old Testament deity in Genesis 11:1-9, “The Tower of Babel” (New International Version): “Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar [Mesopotamia] and settled there.
…Then they said, ‘Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.’
But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, ‘If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.’
So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it was called Babel—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world…”
EDG
In the Old Testament it was the Prophet Moses who was on the mountain listening to the Ten Commandments of God which he inscribed on a tablet. In his absence, the people built the Tower of Babel to worship a corrupt idol of pagentry. On descending the Mountain, Moses was to destroy this Tower given to this hedonistic idol, one which they had mistaken for God, and he put an end to their babble.
In the Old Testament it was the Prophet Moses who was on the mountain listening to the Ten Commandments of God which he inscribed on a tablet. In his absence, the people built the Tower of Babel to worship a corrupt idol of pagentry. On descending the Mountain, Moses was to destroy this Tower given to this hedonistic idol, one which they had mistaken for God, and he put an end to their babble.
The barbarians also destroyed Rome and Athens. And so it goes.
3
Those who blame Obama are completely wrong. All this is the fault of Nixon, Reagan, & Bush.
Besides how essential is it that we have the ruins of Palmyra when we can look forward to the Obama library in Chicago?
Besides how essential is it that we have the ruins of Palmyra when we can look forward to the Obama library in Chicago?
3
It is difficult to support/defend people who are not willing/able to organize and defend themselves. A massive "protectorate" operation, which would restore order, would be probably seen as recolonization, with locals probably shooting the protection forces in the back. Doing nothing means letting horrors to happen, while we (the West) have all the resources to (short-term) establish order and safety there.
Do we have a practical guiding philosophy for such a situation? The "help people to fight for their freedom" worked well in Europe. Outside - seems we are baffled.
"The White Man's Burden" debate all over again (sorry for the "white" - as I understand parts of Africa are today policed - in a good sense - by neighbor countries, this "burden" is not a racial thing, just the question of how much it makes sense to try to help others by assuming responsibility...).
Do we have a practical guiding philosophy for such a situation? The "help people to fight for their freedom" worked well in Europe. Outside - seems we are baffled.
"The White Man's Burden" debate all over again (sorry for the "white" - as I understand parts of Africa are today policed - in a good sense - by neighbor countries, this "burden" is not a racial thing, just the question of how much it makes sense to try to help others by assuming responsibility...).
3
Maybe we need to get over our idea of good guys and bad guys. Anybody ever think Isis is gaining because no one really wants to stop them. After the second world war in both France and Italy collaborators where killed and jailed Mussolini was hung. Arming militias is only creating future warlords. Do will really think they are going to return our arms if they win. We in most things we do recently never think of the next move. If the militias we arm do win do we think they are going to disarm and go home and live in everlasting peace? This region has thousand year grudges and animosity to deal with. As we bomb Isis takes land. You can't win like that. If the locals hated Isis so much why aren't they demanding the Iraqi army stand and fight? When Europe draw the map of this region a hundred years ago it was with no sense of history. We invaded also with no sense of history now we are attempting to fix the unfixable. Anyone ever think why the fake royalty in the region is looking the other way. Saudi Arabia who up to this point military was just a plaything for the princes is bombing Yemen but not Isis. This complicated mess will not be sorted out by us. Ever wonder where the UN stands in this mess? We are trying to play both ends against the middle with little chance of success. As we debate the wisdom of going and the wisdom of leaving Isis grows stronger. Isis is growing stronger because the people on the ground really want them to succeed. As we search for proxy warriors?
1
So who are the bad guys? ISIS? Hezballah? Assad? All of the above? I realize that the Time's readers like to blame Bush and Cheney for all of the world's ills. But is it possible that things have gotten worse after six plus years of Obama?
1
One generally blames the ones who lit the match that started the fire, not the brave volunteers who strive, sometimes with little success, to extinguish it.
1
Caught in the multifront war the civilians in the cities of Iraq and Syria have perhaps no choice but to support the ISIS monster. For, given the heavy air power and military presence of the US led allies, the fall of the Iraqi city Ramadi earlier and now the ancient Syrian city of Palmyra was not possible unless the Islamic State militants had some support, willing or otherwise, of the civilians, as they found themselves between the hardrock of their respective local insensitive authoritarian dispensations and the deep sea
3
They have the support of many Sunni because they have been deserted by Obama and left in the hands of Iranian backed Shia militia.
The people who believe that ISIS just sprang out of nowhere two years ago must also believe that the founding fathers of our country just sprang into existence on July 4, 1776.
12
ISIS/ISIL was originally a part of Al Quaeda in Iraq (AQI). AQI pledged allegiance to Al Quaeda years before Bin Ladin was killed. Al Quaeda's philosophy derives from Wahhabi Sunni Fundamentalism. Wahhabis are the chief Islamic movement in Saudi Arabia.
When Osama Bin Ladin, the founder of Al Quaeda, originally declared war on the United States in 1996, he did so in part because he believed the House of Saud, having established and maintained a military alliance with the US, appeared to permanently betray the beliefs he had absorbed growing up in Saudi Arabia.
There is plenty of blame to go around for the current situation. But more than any other reason, and there are other reasons, the current circumstances surrounding Islamic fundamentalist violence against all things non-Islamic fundamentalist, derives from the ancient enmity for all things non-Islamic found in ancient Islamic tradition, and unreformed dogma. Such as is part of Sunni Wahhabis theology, and Shia 12er theology.
When Osama Bin Ladin, the founder of Al Quaeda, originally declared war on the United States in 1996, he did so in part because he believed the House of Saud, having established and maintained a military alliance with the US, appeared to permanently betray the beliefs he had absorbed growing up in Saudi Arabia.
There is plenty of blame to go around for the current situation. But more than any other reason, and there are other reasons, the current circumstances surrounding Islamic fundamentalist violence against all things non-Islamic fundamentalist, derives from the ancient enmity for all things non-Islamic found in ancient Islamic tradition, and unreformed dogma. Such as is part of Sunni Wahhabis theology, and Shia 12er theology.
2
Anybody ever wonder why the "islamic state" doesn't try to march into Turkey or Iran. Because they probably wouldn't make it one mile over border without being annihilated. In those countries there is a national understanding that the central government in spite of its problems, theocracy in iran creeping authoritarianism in Turkey, IS the government of the entire country. The fragile states of Mesopotamia and the Arabian peninsula were created out of whole cloth by the imperialist Europeans at the close of the first world war.
Isis is reaping the bitter fruit of 1919, weak central governments attempting to rule disparate tribes and religious sects that never in nearly 100 years were willing to submit to a central authority. If Isis isn't stopped there is fertile ground for it as far south as Yemen and Oman, Saudi Arabia could fall so could the sunni monarchs of the gulf. This is what should scare them more than Iran's nuclear program.
Isis is reaping the bitter fruit of 1919, weak central governments attempting to rule disparate tribes and religious sects that never in nearly 100 years were willing to submit to a central authority. If Isis isn't stopped there is fertile ground for it as far south as Yemen and Oman, Saudi Arabia could fall so could the sunni monarchs of the gulf. This is what should scare them more than Iran's nuclear program.
26
As Turkey seems to support ISIS there would be no god reason for "The Islamic State" to try to march into Turkey..
You are absolutely correct. Its time the West admitted the facts that Iraq and Syria no longer exist. We need to work with real entities like Iran and the Kurds. Its time to recognize Kurdistan and give them some heavy weapons.
2
Who is suppling them them the war gear may be both .
None of the international players who have instigated major horrific wars, profited from them, and more recently, assisted in creating Isis by their actions, give a tinker's damn about architectural/historical treasures and records. In fact they have a great deal in common with those who would destroy such wonders. Both factions know that destruction is far easier than creating a thing of timeless beauty.
8
I have to laugh at all the crowing over the loss of old ruins. I would guess that under 1000 Americans have seem them in any given year, fewer know much about them. Sure, they are special. But if they are destroyed records of them will not be, & life continues. All of a sudden everyone is an art appreciation specialist with a broken heart. Where are these people when some habit is threatened by an oil pipeline?
I could get around to worrying about ruins in Syria but I'm more concerned with my fellow Americans who don't accept evolution, or appreciate non representational art, believe in superstitions, think too much education is a bad thing, and have no honest grasp of how little they know about science. Heartbroken observers of other parts of the world are very low on my concern list.
I could get around to worrying about ruins in Syria but I'm more concerned with my fellow Americans who don't accept evolution, or appreciate non representational art, believe in superstitions, think too much education is a bad thing, and have no honest grasp of how little they know about science. Heartbroken observers of other parts of the world are very low on my concern list.
13
I am an American, and I was lucky enough to backpack through the Middle East in 1999. I got to see a live concert staged in those ruins - a number of Middle Eastern singers, with live bands, and a crowd of thousands. I was allowed to sit on the stage - which itself was one of the ancient ruins. It was undoubtedly the most spectacular setting for a concert I have ever seen. Life will go on if they are destroyed, and they do not exist there for my or any other Americans' enjoyment. Along with the people of the region, they deserve our support. Have some compassion and don't think that only the U.S. matters.
12
Aldo asks why it is that Iraq's and Syria's Arab neighbors don't intervene to stop ISIS, the al-Nusra Front (Jabhat al-Nusra) and other such ultraconservative militant groups. Well, the fact is they are intervening in the form of substantial funding provided by Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar and the Gulf emirates. Of course, officially Saudi leaders will tell you that is is provided by private individuals, wealthy business men, etc., but given the level of corruption in all these autocracies, it is more than a little difficult to believe that the governments of those absolute monarchies don't know where the money comes from and are simply unable to control its flow. Moreover, the ideology of ISIS and its cohorts stems precisely from the ultraconservative version of Islam promoted by the Saudi monarchy.
Question: If the United States sees ISIS as such a national security threat, why does Washington turn a blind eye to the key promoters and funders of these movements? I suspect that there are many reasons, not least amongst them the need of the National Security State for an external enemy to justify its existence, and the fact that the military-industrial complex reaps enormous profits from the endless wars which are the spawn of their existence.
Question: If the United States sees ISIS as such a national security threat, why does Washington turn a blind eye to the key promoters and funders of these movements? I suspect that there are many reasons, not least amongst them the need of the National Security State for an external enemy to justify its existence, and the fact that the military-industrial complex reaps enormous profits from the endless wars which are the spawn of their existence.
12
Correct. So unfortunately correct.
Time to get concerned about ISIS. These guys truly believe in their work. US needs to send in troops and overpower them. Wipe the ISIS out. ISIS are just killing people as they have no agenda but to kill more. ISIS should be eradicated and it should be NATO effort to crush ISIS.
2
Call me a cynic or even a conspiracy theorist but i am having a hard time accepting the victories of isis. This organization, a band of zealots made up mostly of malcontents from across the Arabian peninsula and Europe has managed to not only defeat the armies of two governments, Syria and Iraq, but has also been able to effectively evade if not neutralize the air bombing campaign being waged by the united states military. Its time for a serious investigation into who is funding, training, organizing, and directing what has become the most successful military/terrorist campaign in modern history.
I have a feeling that such an investigation would lead to the doorsteps of some governments that the united states and other western countries insist are its friends and allies.
I have a feeling that such an investigation would lead to the doorsteps of some governments that the united states and other western countries insist are its friends and allies.
17
In the middle East the prevailing theory is that they are our creation
2
Read the article. The malcontents number 20,000 from 100 countries who have left their homelands to join ISIS. Don't be fooled into thinking there are no malcontents leaving the shores of the U.S. There are many and documented cases turn up in the news constantly. It's not widely broadcast in mainstream media probably out of concern it will incite more rash and disillusioned teens to get on the bandwagon. There are hosts of recruitment sites online. Even women recruiting women to come serve as 'wives' cooks etc. And, yes, as the response above states, popular opinion is that we helped create them. Frontline has a very good expose that details their inception and growth.
1
There are no shortage of conspiracy theories in the Middle East, Mr. Cuddy.
1
How to tell a friend that we are seeing WWIII when her country and civilization are being swept up in the sands? Silence. It was not so long ago that we went to a museum in New York and she showed a couple of her friends some beautiful artifacts that went back to the Mesopotamia era. All gone, all gone with only her memories left, and there are no words of comfort to offer at times. We turn into statues with some sorrow in our heart.
Long ago I saw on the screen the last man on earth lying on a beach while the tide ebbed and flowed. He is staring at a stone head with a crown next to him, and it is the Statue of Liberty. May all the countries of the world unite against these destroyers of life who call themselves ISIS, for they are in reality nameless lost souls without a country, without a name.
Let the nations on earth put an end to this rubble and stamp out the lingering and malevolent embers of these aliens that are not recognized by humans on this planet of ours.
Long ago I saw on the screen the last man on earth lying on a beach while the tide ebbed and flowed. He is staring at a stone head with a crown next to him, and it is the Statue of Liberty. May all the countries of the world unite against these destroyers of life who call themselves ISIS, for they are in reality nameless lost souls without a country, without a name.
Let the nations on earth put an end to this rubble and stamp out the lingering and malevolent embers of these aliens that are not recognized by humans on this planet of ours.
3
Some artefacts are going to be destroyed, and ISIS will soon capture this destruction in their slick video campaign for everyone to see. It’s a two-pronged, effective PR strategy because they know the (secular) Western media and their audiences will voice more outrage over the destruction of ancient buildings than the continued slaughter of innocent civilians. It is doubly demoralizing for the survivors of Palmyra who will feel that not only is their heritage being smashed, but the world appears to be indifferent to their suffering.
However, let’s not be naive, similar to other conflicts over the years, the best artefacts are going to find their way to collectors.
If governments really want to make a dent in ISIS, stop the revenue being generated by illegal oil sales, human trafficking and, amongst others, from the sale of stolen artefacts. In this day and age, the banks and authorities should be more proactive in blocking transfers of money, and secured storage facilities ought to question what “souvenirs” are being sent over from the Middle East.
However, let’s not be naive, similar to other conflicts over the years, the best artefacts are going to find their way to collectors.
If governments really want to make a dent in ISIS, stop the revenue being generated by illegal oil sales, human trafficking and, amongst others, from the sale of stolen artefacts. In this day and age, the banks and authorities should be more proactive in blocking transfers of money, and secured storage facilities ought to question what “souvenirs” are being sent over from the Middle East.
8
This is all clearly the result of our premature and rushed withdrawal from Iraq, an Iraq that we succeeded in stabilizing after the surge. By 2009 the country was largely stabilized and the US troops were seen as the most honest brokers of any parties involved.
Had our troops stayed there in force (but in their barracks), we could have been active behind the scenes as Maliki withdrew; we could have effectively countered Iran's influence and maintained a peace between the Sunni and Shia by making sure the Sunni population's interests were respected. This would have kept out the Jihadis and tamped down the Mehdi Army (Shia militias) ambitions.
Obama was over-anxious to pull out and be credited as the president who "ended" the Iraq War. Too many Americans thought they could wish away the problem.
Had our troops stayed there in force (but in their barracks), we could have been active behind the scenes as Maliki withdrew; we could have effectively countered Iran's influence and maintained a peace between the Sunni and Shia by making sure the Sunni population's interests were respected. This would have kept out the Jihadis and tamped down the Mehdi Army (Shia militias) ambitions.
Obama was over-anxious to pull out and be credited as the president who "ended" the Iraq War. Too many Americans thought they could wish away the problem.
5
It is truly sad that not a single Republican seems to know that Bush signed the Status of Forces Agreement that set the date for the withdrawal of our troops. That this agreement was with the democratic Iraqi government that Bush installed. That that same Iraqi government denied Obama's requests to keep more troops in Iraq unless he agreed to subject our troops to local prosecution. Something no POTUS has done or would do.
But I guess that's what happens when you learn history from Fox News.
But I guess that's what happens when you learn history from Fox News.
33
Never forget that Bush destabilized the MidEast by his invasion...of the wrong country too.
HE created ISIS/ISIL, not President Obama.
HE created ISIS/ISIL, not President Obama.
1
The U.S. state department spokesperson is downplaying the offensive city takeovers of ISIS. Is the American public being misled? ISIS is going to outmaneuver us one sandstorm at a time.
5
Perhaps one day we'll be buying our oil from them, possibly as contentedly as we buy from Saudi Arabia.
3
When are the civilized nations of the region and world going to wake-up and appreciate the threat posed by these barbarians and rally the forces necessary to eliminate this entity which has no desire for peace under any circumstances?
Which civilized nations? The Americans who killed 2 million in Vietnam for no explainable reason? The French who created hell in Algeria? The Germans with their lovely military history? Shall the English revisit colonialism? Should the Japanese re militarize? You must mean China.
18
Always ask yourself. Would you, a civilized human being, offer to fight the barbarians. If you won't walk the walk in sand, then you can't recommend that others enter the fray.
6
China? Mao murdered tens of millions of his countrymen. And Mao's political party still rules China with an iron fist. The Chinese are no better than anybody on your list, CK.
ISIS is showing the world that their barbarity has no limits. We know all too well that they have no respect for human life. They have created a culture of depravity that begins and ends with them. Their depravity is so self-centered, so self-aggrandizing that they have decoupled from human history. The legacy of humanity begins and ends with their warped ideology, their corruption of Islam.
By destroying these priceless, irreplaceable antiquities, they demonstrate that human heritage, the heritage of their own ancestors, is considered by them as blasphemous. In doing so, they have embraced a level of ignorance that is only exceeded by their cruelty. Only the burning of the Library of Alexandria exceeded this level of cultural loss.
ISIS has reached heights of barbarity not seen in thousands of years. Not only do they snuff out human life, they snuff out human history and with it, the essence of humanity itself.
By destroying these priceless, irreplaceable antiquities, they demonstrate that human heritage, the heritage of their own ancestors, is considered by them as blasphemous. In doing so, they have embraced a level of ignorance that is only exceeded by their cruelty. Only the burning of the Library of Alexandria exceeded this level of cultural loss.
ISIS has reached heights of barbarity not seen in thousands of years. Not only do they snuff out human life, they snuff out human history and with it, the essence of humanity itself.
10
OK, we agree with you that "ISIS has reached heights of barbarity not seen in thousands of years." Now you must tell us what we should do. Should we send troops when none of the established and wealthy Middle East countries themselves seemed to feel threatened and are not committing their massive military forces to fight ISIS? You want to send your son?
One of the most famous rulers of Palmyra was Queen Zenobia in the mid 3rd century CE. She led a revolt against Rome and set up rule and ruled as far as Egypt until 271 when defeated by the Romans and taken prisoner.
She was of Semitic stock, her family had names in Aramaic, was fluent in many languages and had a working knowledge of many more. She was cultured and "supported the arts". She compared herself to Dido of Carthage and Cleopatra.
One might say that she represents the feminist antithesis of ISIS.
As for Palmyra, sic transit gloria mundi.
She was of Semitic stock, her family had names in Aramaic, was fluent in many languages and had a working knowledge of many more. She was cultured and "supported the arts". She compared herself to Dido of Carthage and Cleopatra.
One might say that she represents the feminist antithesis of ISIS.
As for Palmyra, sic transit gloria mundi.
11
If the world cannot come together to stop this world-wide atrocity, we have no hope of saving the material history of western civilization. And we will have so many die later, trying to catch up with what we , citizens of earth, should have taken care of when we could/should have.
I'm guessing people from the middle east would take issue with referring to eastern antiquities as materials of western civilization.
The divide between east and west is so great that these unconscious biases work their way into our language and we don't even realize it. Hopefully one day we will all get past this ancient divide and refer to ourselves as citizens of earth as you have.
The divide between east and west is so great that these unconscious biases work their way into our language and we don't even realize it. Hopefully one day we will all get past this ancient divide and refer to ourselves as citizens of earth as you have.
1
These countries will protect their patrimony, or they won't. If they won't, they won't, and we can't.
I love these Iraqi "forces". We train them, they train themselves, they are attacked, they fall apart and run.
I love these Iraqi "forces". We train them, they train themselves, they are attacked, they fall apart and run.
11
Smartest statement on the forum.
We didn't train anyone, we bribed them. Bribed soldiers just show up to take the bribes, it's no surprise they aren't around to fight. Civil society in Iraq is tribal, the men don't fight for the nation. This is why Saddam's accomplishments there mattered, he did the impossible.
We didn't train anyone, we bribed them. Bribed soldiers just show up to take the bribes, it's no surprise they aren't around to fight. Civil society in Iraq is tribal, the men don't fight for the nation. This is why Saddam's accomplishments there mattered, he did the impossible.
8
Well, the powerful Iraqis that Bremer displaced went off to develop Isis.
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/views/news/middle-east/2015/04/18/The-er...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-hidden-hand-behind-t...
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/views/news/middle-east/2015/04/18/The-er...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-hidden-hand-behind-t...
4
If American efforts in Iraq were graded it would get an "F" since the fall of Saddam. Yet we continue, and continue with performance that, by even generous standards, would get an "F" in any school in our country. Billions (with a B) disappear yet generals get promoted. Iraq armies run at the slightest gunshot, leaving their uniforms and million-dollar equipment behind for the enemy. Generals get promoted. Abraham Lincoln knew better and fired them until he got U. S. Grant. The acceptance of failure is at the heart of our Middle East policy.
The architects of the 2003 invasion of Iraq as well as the short-sighted supporters of the overrated 2011 Arab 'Spring' are the psychopathic pyromaniacs responsible for the fiery whirlwind laying waste to wide swaths of North Africa and the Middle East. Bush, Blair, Obama, Sarkozy, Cameron : all miserably failed to imagine a viable and acceptable alternative to the entrenched dictatorships in the Arab world whose 'utility' suddenly came to naught to the eyes of Western powers under the influence of the ethically bankrupt energy industry. Who really knows where this will take us?
4
When you talk about the architects of the 2003 invasion, you are, of course, talking about the current and possibly future advisers and cabinet members of Jeb Bush.
Uh oh.
Uh oh.
2
Obama, Clinton, and company can't be absolved for a passive foreign policy, masked by tough talk, which sat by while Syria degenerated into chaos, with more than a hundred thousand dead. The "Arab Spring" turned out to be little more than a campaign slogan for the 2012 election. Libya went from the frying pan to the fire, and Russia was allowed to feast on the carrion.
1
It's truly amazing when looking back how devastating and costly the decision by the Bush/Cheney administration to invade Iraq has become. This one atrocious idea of invading a sovereign nation, which had nothing to do with 9/11, made before 9/11 and not because of bad intelligence, did not bring stability to the region but has caused the creation of ISIS and the conditions there much worse.
It is safe to say this article would not exist if we had left the tyrannical dictator Saddam Hussein in control of Iraq (which was the first clue of our total ignorance of the Middle East). The world is NOT a better place without him. By not invading Iraq, this would have eliminated all of the other sequential bad decisions to follow with no clear solution to this problem in sight.
Just as amazing is the ones that made this terrible decision, which they never apologized for, are the ones wanting to do the very same thing all over again when blaming Obama for not placing more American troops on the ground in the Middle East.
If these Pub politicians and neocons want to go to war, then they literally should have to go to war with the troops. Let's test their resolve.
It is safe to say this article would not exist if we had left the tyrannical dictator Saddam Hussein in control of Iraq (which was the first clue of our total ignorance of the Middle East). The world is NOT a better place without him. By not invading Iraq, this would have eliminated all of the other sequential bad decisions to follow with no clear solution to this problem in sight.
Just as amazing is the ones that made this terrible decision, which they never apologized for, are the ones wanting to do the very same thing all over again when blaming Obama for not placing more American troops on the ground in the Middle East.
If these Pub politicians and neocons want to go to war, then they literally should have to go to war with the troops. Let's test their resolve.
13
I thought it was amazing before it happened. I thought it patently obvious what horrors would unfold. Watching the country's rush to war (I watched from abroad) made me ill on a daily basis. The country seemed deranged, or living in some sort of strange bubble. (I lived then in an Islamic country where Bush was despised and where folks gleefully wore t-shirts showing Osama Bin Ladin arguing with George Bush.)
I got the news well in advance from some excited security person from the US embassy, who was adamant maybe 10 months before the invasion, that it would happen. I was incredulous and sick for months. This country will apparently go along with anything, lives in some a state of passive denial of reality. I wholly blame Tony Blair, the great enabler. And of course the Neocons, Cheney, Rumsfeld -- Bush was a mere puppet, a child.
I got the news well in advance from some excited security person from the US embassy, who was adamant maybe 10 months before the invasion, that it would happen. I was incredulous and sick for months. This country will apparently go along with anything, lives in some a state of passive denial of reality. I wholly blame Tony Blair, the great enabler. And of course the Neocons, Cheney, Rumsfeld -- Bush was a mere puppet, a child.
8
I do not believe for a second that the U.S. military, or even the French one, for crying out loud, could not take care of this ragtag group of yippering ISIS idiots in a matter of days if they wanted to. I do not think they want to, however, for reasons that are beyond me. I am not one for conspiracy theories, but now that Osama is dead, ISIS has been designated as the Orwellian Enemy of the State.
7
Why so confident of this? It was that confidence that got us into this mess.
4
Kiss these ruins, bye-bye. ISIS will surely destroy them. You see, the ruins, not
being Islamic in any way, are offensive to them. If only the ruins hadn't provoked ISIS they would leave them alone. But like Western civilization itself, Palmyra is offensive and provocative, just because it exists.
being Islamic in any way, are offensive to them. If only the ruins hadn't provoked ISIS they would leave them alone. But like Western civilization itself, Palmyra is offensive and provocative, just because it exists.
10
So why should destruction of antiquities be any concern to the United States considering that we and our allies blew up everything we could during WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam wars? It didn’t particularly matter then if libraries, homes, museums, cathedrals, mosques, synagogues, hospitals were blow away; it’s simply just what all nations and humans do. We build and then we destroy. The Pyramids would long ago been turned to dust and parking lots if the Romans or Alexander had had nukes.
7
Imagine what these lunatics would do if they took over Egypt: they'd dynamite the Great Pyramid of Giza and every tomb in Luxor. At some point the Arab rulers, secular and otherwise, are going to have to deal with these people or they'll be joining the region's architectural treasures in the ashcan of history.
11
How much better off we'd be had the 2000 SCOTUS not awarded the presidency to George W. Bush, easily the worst president the nation has ever known, responsible for the worst foreign policy decision in modern US history.
Meanwhile, conservative logic, such as it were, is telling: the problem isn't the purposeful invasion of Iraq under known false pretenses, but the next president who has to clean up a mess he didn't begin or create. Yeah, brilliant.
Besides, Obama followed what George W. Bush called for: a withdrawal of all US troops from Iraq by December 2011. Would the GOP have preferred Obama to not follow the law by keeping US troops there?
Meanwhile, conservative logic, such as it were, is telling: the problem isn't the purposeful invasion of Iraq under known false pretenses, but the next president who has to clean up a mess he didn't begin or create. Yeah, brilliant.
Besides, Obama followed what George W. Bush called for: a withdrawal of all US troops from Iraq by December 2011. Would the GOP have preferred Obama to not follow the law by keeping US troops there?
13
The GOP does not appear to care what is destroyed, or how many lives are lost, as long as they can bring the President down. He warned us of the dangers of ISIL but we did not listen or hear or care, because we were too busy squabbling in a sand-box while he continues to go forward. A tragedy of great magnitude, and whether we can save what is left, will depend on us now.
6
September 11th 2001,
15 saudis,2 citizens from the United Arab Emirates,one egiptian and one lebanese,kill almost 3000 innocent americans.
Reaction of the Bush administration?Invading Irak.
Why?Because they wanted to control those huge oil reserves.
Did Irak have weapons of mass destruction?No.
How many iraki civilians have died since?Hundreds of thousands.
The Bush family,Chenney and the lot are now even richer and the world is a much unsafer place.
This is only the beginning.
15 saudis,2 citizens from the United Arab Emirates,one egiptian and one lebanese,kill almost 3000 innocent americans.
Reaction of the Bush administration?Invading Irak.
Why?Because they wanted to control those huge oil reserves.
Did Irak have weapons of mass destruction?No.
How many iraki civilians have died since?Hundreds of thousands.
The Bush family,Chenney and the lot are now even richer and the world is a much unsafer place.
This is only the beginning.
16
Since ISiS has established unrivaled authority over vast parts of Iraq & Syria, why not recognize this reality and give them what they ask for, a nation-state, with world recognized borders and recognition!
The U.N. created Israel, the E.U. has welcomed and recognized many new nations in the post-cold-war era, and nationalistic independence movements continue to demand recognition.
So, give ISIS what they want - world recognized Caliphate, and recognize ISIS as the legitimate ruler of a new nation! Then maybe, the violence will end!
The U.N. created Israel, the E.U. has welcomed and recognized many new nations in the post-cold-war era, and nationalistic independence movements continue to demand recognition.
So, give ISIS what they want - world recognized Caliphate, and recognize ISIS as the legitimate ruler of a new nation! Then maybe, the violence will end!
2
"Then, maybe, the violence will end." Are you joking? They'd go on to kill every Christian, Yazdi, Kurd, Shiite and Alawite in the region- not to mention every Sunni Arab who doesn't bow to their "caliph" and grow out their beard. It shouldn't be up to the U.S. to get rid of this band of lunatics but nor should we recognize them as a legitimate government.
11
"...maybe the violence will end." And what IF the violence doesn't end? What possible reason do you have to believe they have any desire to stop conquering more countries? Isn't that their agenda?
This is going to be heartbreaking to watch.
Of course, ISIS aren't the only barbarians responsible for destroying ancient treasures. I still remember Donald Rumsfeld and the Bush administration arrogantly dismissing the firestorm that erupted as the world watched Iraq's museums being looted.
America, we caused this. We allowed our own barbarians to destroy Iraq. We created ISIS.
We should consider that the last time civilization faced a barbarism this evil, this bloodthirsty, the barbarians won. The period afterwards lasted 600 years and was called the Dark Ages.
The question is, what are we going to do about it? We have a responsibility to act. We caused this.
Of course, ISIS aren't the only barbarians responsible for destroying ancient treasures. I still remember Donald Rumsfeld and the Bush administration arrogantly dismissing the firestorm that erupted as the world watched Iraq's museums being looted.
America, we caused this. We allowed our own barbarians to destroy Iraq. We created ISIS.
We should consider that the last time civilization faced a barbarism this evil, this bloodthirsty, the barbarians won. The period afterwards lasted 600 years and was called the Dark Ages.
The question is, what are we going to do about it? We have a responsibility to act. We caused this.
9
While I like the thrust of the post, the last time the barbarians were at the gate was in WWII. The world, or at least some parts of it stood up, fought and defeated the enemy that would have otherwise destroyed civilization. No less is at stake.
3
Sean
The answer may be that we are not going to change and will continue to quarrel about this in fast-food restaurants.
The answer may be that we are not going to change and will continue to quarrel about this in fast-food restaurants.
You have a point. Of course, those barbarians lost. But, yes, they were just as evil as ISIS. I stand corrected.
To all the Internet Tough Guys here:
How many troops do we send? How many years do we fight? How many decades do we stay? Do you favor the return of the draft to maintain troop strength and are you will to pay the taxes to sustain a decades long project?
Anyone?
How many troops do we send? How many years do we fight? How many decades do we stay? Do you favor the return of the draft to maintain troop strength and are you will to pay the taxes to sustain a decades long project?
Anyone?
9
BT
Whether we like it or not, it is quite possible that the return of the Draft is being considered as an option but it is also a possibility that we are going to start to close our borders.
Whether we like it or not, it is quite possible that the return of the Draft is being considered as an option but it is also a possibility that we are going to start to close our borders.
Why do people suddenly care about Syria? Assad has been gassing, bombing and starving his own citizens for four years. 100s of thousands homeless. And now republicans care. More like they care about winning some stupid war and not losing face. If we were going to be big guns we should have done it a long time ago in Syria. Many Syrians turned to Isis when Assad kept beating them down and no one came to their assistance.
Too late, world. I can only imagine what a Syrian can be thinking reading the comments about these relics. Personally, if we NOW go into Syria, I would be sick to stomach. The Palmyran ruins are beautiful, but not as beautiful as the faces of all the children Assad has killed.
Too late, world. I can only imagine what a Syrian can be thinking reading the comments about these relics. Personally, if we NOW go into Syria, I would be sick to stomach. The Palmyran ruins are beautiful, but not as beautiful as the faces of all the children Assad has killed.
6
Lil50
You brought the memory of watching the President lower his head and cover his eyes when told of the fate of Syrian children. It is a portrait of 'America' weeping.
You brought the memory of watching the President lower his head and cover his eyes when told of the fate of Syrian children. It is a portrait of 'America' weeping.
1
First, everyone (including the Times) should adopt the approach of calling these guys "Daesh" instead, as others have. I understand there is a play on words that is most appropriate, especially as yet another historic treasure likely to be destroyed. (They won't be able to resist at least some destruction, since they know how much it irks the rest of the world.)
Second, this is also a product of the Arab Spring. Weeds also grow in Spring and what popped up in Syria included this weed. Sometimes, somehow weeds seem to get away from you. We need to spend less time laying blame and more time figuring out how to deal with this.
Wars cost money! Lots! As we learned from the last war, the ones that aren't paid for with taxes are the worst. Our debt skyrocketed! You need to talk taxes when then talk "boots on the ground". Otherwise it's more debt, that will eventually be laid at the feet of the shrinking middle class. If you follow the dominos, military action there is a blow to middle America here. With no thanks and probably more Islamic radical coming after us for revenge someday. What is that about "Fool me once...?"
The whole "get them there before the come here" policy has to be questioned, and replaced with a cold (sorry) calculation of spending there vs. the odds attack and value of lost lives here. The days where we can act on our morals are sadly over. We can't just go stop the bad guys. We'd be justified in pounding Daesh to dust, but can we afford it?
Second, this is also a product of the Arab Spring. Weeds also grow in Spring and what popped up in Syria included this weed. Sometimes, somehow weeds seem to get away from you. We need to spend less time laying blame and more time figuring out how to deal with this.
Wars cost money! Lots! As we learned from the last war, the ones that aren't paid for with taxes are the worst. Our debt skyrocketed! You need to talk taxes when then talk "boots on the ground". Otherwise it's more debt, that will eventually be laid at the feet of the shrinking middle class. If you follow the dominos, military action there is a blow to middle America here. With no thanks and probably more Islamic radical coming after us for revenge someday. What is that about "Fool me once...?"
The whole "get them there before the come here" policy has to be questioned, and replaced with a cold (sorry) calculation of spending there vs. the odds attack and value of lost lives here. The days where we can act on our morals are sadly over. We can't just go stop the bad guys. We'd be justified in pounding Daesh to dust, but can we afford it?
2
The museum workers in Syria are owed a tremendous debt of gratitude for what they are doing.
10
Anyone remember the King of Jordan being so peeved after Isis burned the pilot in the cage. He put on his flying suit and vowed to take the fight to these Barbarians. That lasted until the cameras were turned off. Maybe we will wake up one day and realize Isis didn't happen in a vacuum. Maybe the Iraqi Army keeps running in the wrong direction because they really don't care! Since the Iraqi Army really shows us daily that beating Isis is not high up on their list of things to do. When do we wake up and smell the coffee. Saddam knew these people and he knew the only way to keep them from killing each other is for them to fear him more than they do each other. We knocked Saddam off and now we want them to sing Cum Bye Here? Do we really think Isis is taking towns that don't want to be taken? They are eighty miles from the seat of government if they were really so unwelcomed the population would be fighting them with pitchforks if that’s was all they had. Someone needs to sort out the players and keep a scorecard. Isis may be brutal to us but to the locals they are just settling old scores. What a mess we have let the Neocons get us into. The faulty intelligence lie is giving them cover for this mistake. One must ask if the CIA told them Haiti had WMD would we have invaded Haiti. The intelligence was what the hawks wanted to make it. It gave them the excuse to do what they wanted to do.
8
Thank you G.W.B.! How will the current crop of Republican candidates flee from the responsibilities he has left us.? Obama has tried to some extent to deal with the legacy left him, and the Republican response has been that of an ostrich.
6
Say good by to Palmyra and hello to radical militants who have no understanding of the value of history-- because it does not weigh in their favor. Already mourning.
4
The United States has interfered for the worse in the attempt to export American-style democracy. In the WWI experiment in Germany wiping out the "old order" created chaos and Hitler. In WWII wiping out Hitler caused 80 years of Cold War and the enslavement of Eastern Europe. In toppling an impotent Saddam (whose gross oppression affected largely his own people) the Middle East became destabilized and, as with Weimar Germany, chaos has ensued and terrorist fundamentalism enlarged and empowered. The same sort of mindless destruction that saw book-burning in Hitler Germany is duplicated by ISIS destroying human heritage sites and artifacts. While the prime actors in today's Middle East tragedy are Bush, Cheney, et.al., assisted by a Government passion for lying to the American people and, perhaps more dangerously, lying to itself.
4
Not one more drop of our children's blood, nor one more red cent needs to be wasted in that forsaken land.
You want to be the hero, grab the next flight to Turkey.
No more sending other peoples kids to be dismembered.
Every arm we give to the Iraqi's makes Isis stronger after it is abandoned and the Iraq army turns tail and runs.
We have not yet heard of one Iraq's finest being shot for desertion, which seems to be the national pastime.
You want to be the hero, grab the next flight to Turkey.
No more sending other peoples kids to be dismembered.
Every arm we give to the Iraqi's makes Isis stronger after it is abandoned and the Iraq army turns tail and runs.
We have not yet heard of one Iraq's finest being shot for desertion, which seems to be the national pastime.
8
It's sad. It's tragic. It's avoidable, but even most of us in the West soften once people start talking about respect for faith. Why? This is what organized religion leads to. It's a will so strong that the mightiest militaries in the West can't quite figure out what to do. Innocent people die, the world is unstable, all in the name of someone's imaginary god.
Foe everyone who has all the answers and heavy criticism for Western countries not ruled by religion, how about we start with, even the victims in the smallest of villages would defend their religion over humanity. So, what really are we amongst us to do who believe any and all human life comes first, before religion, before terror?
Foe everyone who has all the answers and heavy criticism for Western countries not ruled by religion, how about we start with, even the victims in the smallest of villages would defend their religion over humanity. So, what really are we amongst us to do who believe any and all human life comes first, before religion, before terror?
4
Calm down. Iran will neutralize them. The US is powerless.
2
Iran is run by Shia fundamentalist fanatics, just like ISIS is run by Sunni fundamentalist fanatics. They have more in common, when it comes to all things non-Islamic, than they have separating them. Witness how Shia and Sunni get along during the annual Hajj.
The more fully you embrace Islam, the more you literally interpret the Koran and the Caliphs, the more strictly you enforce Sharia, the more your culture deteriorates into the abyss. Even to the point where an entire generation wipes out ancient relics instead of preserving them for the future.
2
All nations should join together with the United States to defeat ISIS and not just with token participation. The combined militaries of countries like England, France, Germany, Italy, Israel, Spain, Saudi Arabia and the United States could quickly restore order in Iraq and Syria.
President Obama’s greatest legacy could be forming a coalition of countries with the goal of restoring peace in the Middle East and preventing Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons.
President Obama’s greatest legacy could be forming a coalition of countries with the goal of restoring peace in the Middle East and preventing Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons.
1
We'll all be paying for the decisions made in the Bush- Cheney administration for a long time. Yes, Republicans will protest how President Obama has handled it, but logic destroys them. Are Republicans angry that Barack Obama has failed to correct the horrible mistakes that were made in the Bush and Cheney administration?
Even today, GOP presidential primary candidates can't decide if Budh and Cheney's war was worth the cost. And you Republicans will nominate one of them.
I don't know what we do. Do we drop a few trillion dollars more into that war? Jeb Bush and others are implying that we do. Other GOP primary candidates, maybe only one, state they would not. It's a bad problem that originated in Republican policy, and Republicans today are fractured by it.
I think that it's going to take another major military intervention. Ten thousand troops won't be enough. But do we end up with a stable Iraq after that? Cheney, blessed by Republican voters, failed the first time. Will you Republicans pay taxes to do it again?
Even today, GOP presidential primary candidates can't decide if Budh and Cheney's war was worth the cost. And you Republicans will nominate one of them.
I don't know what we do. Do we drop a few trillion dollars more into that war? Jeb Bush and others are implying that we do. Other GOP primary candidates, maybe only one, state they would not. It's a bad problem that originated in Republican policy, and Republicans today are fractured by it.
I think that it's going to take another major military intervention. Ten thousand troops won't be enough. But do we end up with a stable Iraq after that? Cheney, blessed by Republican voters, failed the first time. Will you Republicans pay taxes to do it again?
17
"Will you Republicans pay taxes to do it again?"
They didn't pay taxes last time, so I doubt they think they'll have to do it again. They'll just grab more food stamps and unemployment benefits. And when all that is gone, they'll raid social security and raise the retirement age to 75. Meanwhile our infrastructure crumbles and they blame it all on the democrats.
They didn't pay taxes last time, so I doubt they think they'll have to do it again. They'll just grab more food stamps and unemployment benefits. And when all that is gone, they'll raid social security and raise the retirement age to 75. Meanwhile our infrastructure crumbles and they blame it all on the democrats.
4
I feel bad for you because you can't get over the past. ISIS rampaging across civilisation is the present.
1
"Time is a violent torrent; no sooner is a thing brought to sight than it is swept by and another takes its place."
--Marcus Aurelius
Thousands of years to run its course, but Palmyra will be washed over, too, I'm afraid. And a horror story takes its place. In IS I witness the worst scourge of my lifetime. Worse than I imagined it would be, and all signs point to it becoming worse still.
--Marcus Aurelius
Thousands of years to run its course, but Palmyra will be washed over, too, I'm afraid. And a horror story takes its place. In IS I witness the worst scourge of my lifetime. Worse than I imagined it would be, and all signs point to it becoming worse still.
8
Not that bad, mford, but yes, it's a mess. We'll continue to trickle troops over there. No one here will care so long as we can get our Chinese-made goods. Life will go on.
I volunteered in the Vietnam war. The Vietnam war was the first major war that we forgot about when it was over. Iraq is the first major war that we forgot about while ti was still going on.
I volunteered in the Vietnam war. The Vietnam war was the first major war that we forgot about when it was over. Iraq is the first major war that we forgot about while ti was still going on.
6
Agreed; from another Vietnam volunteer.
Sad; all the people got is the pain and the debt for our kids and grandkids. And for some the knowledge that the suffering is the consequences of our unrestrained 'defense' industry.
This shaft was given to us from the political hacks we elect.
Sad; all the people got is the pain and the debt for our kids and grandkids. And for some the knowledge that the suffering is the consequences of our unrestrained 'defense' industry.
This shaft was given to us from the political hacks we elect.
My culture is being destroyed. My culture is a product of the Greeks, Romans and Persians, and Islam.
I am angry at the ignorance of it all. One of the slides says that Paymyra sits at the crossroads of Greek, Roman, Persian and Islamic culture. Mohammed was born 600 years after these ruins were built. However, it was the Moors who brought an enlightenment to dark-ages Europe as the result of their occupation of Spain. They had kept alive literacy, numeracy, philosophy and science, the things that had been lost in Europe.
What would they think of their progeny now? I know what I think of mindless but malevolent and willful ignorance and destruction.
I am angry at the ignorance of it all. One of the slides says that Paymyra sits at the crossroads of Greek, Roman, Persian and Islamic culture. Mohammed was born 600 years after these ruins were built. However, it was the Moors who brought an enlightenment to dark-ages Europe as the result of their occupation of Spain. They had kept alive literacy, numeracy, philosophy and science, the things that had been lost in Europe.
What would they think of their progeny now? I know what I think of mindless but malevolent and willful ignorance and destruction.
24
Unless a concrete action is taken at the earliest, the world will witness blood bath in the coming years. ISIS has proved that it is a more sophisticated, well organized and well trained unit. Unlike Al-Qaeda, whose main tactics is hit and run or involve suicide bombers, ISIS is determined to have its own empire, which is a bad sign for the rest of the world.
Fall of Palmyra is bad on many counts. Apart from ISIS conquering yet another city, ancient ruins are going to be destroyed, given ISIS's thirst to do away with anything idolatry.
If ISIS is pushed one step backward, they bounce back with more vigor and take two steps forward. Given the tactics, intelligence and brutal force exhibited by ISIS, military victory will take a long time. They should be attacked psychologically. Top leadership should be wiped out first. This will help in reducing the morale of the cadre.
Fall of Palmyra is bad on many counts. Apart from ISIS conquering yet another city, ancient ruins are going to be destroyed, given ISIS's thirst to do away with anything idolatry.
If ISIS is pushed one step backward, they bounce back with more vigor and take two steps forward. Given the tactics, intelligence and brutal force exhibited by ISIS, military victory will take a long time. They should be attacked psychologically. Top leadership should be wiped out first. This will help in reducing the morale of the cadre.
6
IS is still a minor nuisance. For perspective, think of WW2--The USSR lost 26 million killed and 2.5 million (not a few hundred) men were pouring into Berlin from the east in April 1945 with 10s of thosands of Guns and tanks. The tank battle of Kursk involved 4,000 main battle tanks. I could go on.
Isis could be annialated with one WW2 quality tank Division, and do so under the Geneva Convention (partisans have no protection and can be legally dispatched on the spot).
The media, tool of the MIC & mercenaries has turned IS into a threat to sell arms. period. If we want to finally get serious, on the cheap, a couple of low yield tactical nukes would eradicate IS in a nanosecond together with its collaboraters (e.g., the citizenry ogf Mosul--how does a lightly armed force of 2,000 hold a city of 1 million without whole scale collaboation). Of course, winning is not the goal, perpetual war is. I barely lift my eyes to read about IS except I'm angry about their cultural vandalism.
Isis could be annialated with one WW2 quality tank Division, and do so under the Geneva Convention (partisans have no protection and can be legally dispatched on the spot).
The media, tool of the MIC & mercenaries has turned IS into a threat to sell arms. period. If we want to finally get serious, on the cheap, a couple of low yield tactical nukes would eradicate IS in a nanosecond together with its collaboraters (e.g., the citizenry ogf Mosul--how does a lightly armed force of 2,000 hold a city of 1 million without whole scale collaboation). Of course, winning is not the goal, perpetual war is. I barely lift my eyes to read about IS except I'm angry about their cultural vandalism.
2
Isis is winning the war. Given the US lackluster attempts to stop ISIS, it is not surprising that Iran believes we are supporting ISIS, which is overruning a number of countries. After listening g to Obama's excuses today, like blaming it on the weather, one can only wonder whether the Iranians are right and Obama is helping ISIS.
12
Kenneth Lindsey
Some of us have never trusted President Obama and some of us never will, but it is he who has lost his trust perhaps in the People whom he represents.
Some of us have never trusted President Obama and some of us never will, but it is he who has lost his trust perhaps in the People whom he represents.
Everyone keeps talking about these priceless relics ... How many of *your* children are you willing to put in harms way to protect a bunch of old pillars? I thought as much.
1
How protecting innocent women from sexual slavery, children from watching their fathers killed (crucified) in front of them, thousands of Christians murdered for their faith, millions running away from villages where their ancestors have lived for centuries and minorities killed, relocated and persecuted because of their religion?
1
ISIS is improving almost daily in the eyes of the world media. ISIS started out as terrorists. Then became insurgents. Then fighters. Now they are Islamic State Militants. Fast improvement wouldn't you say, especially since they started our beheading prisoners in public? Just watch.....soon they will declare ISIS to be a country and then demand a seat at the U.N. And it will probably be granted. Then, as usual, we will begin sending "foreign aid".........
8
Palmyra is a priceless treasure, but all of Palmyra and all of the rest of antiquity that we appreciate so much as part of our evolving heritage is not worth one single human life - and there will be a lot of human lives lost when IS takes control of Syria and what is left of Iraq. Yesterday, Ramadi was lost to IS and there is little, if anything, left of Anbar province, where so many U.S. lives were lost a few short years ago. Why is it that we sent our good people in uniform to Iraq and for what, exactly, did we ask them to die or suffer horrific woulds of the body and mind? IS can have Palmyra and all of antiquity but I would rather have all of our U.S. and coalition forces that we sent to the ME, Iraq and Afghanistan back with us alive and well and unhurt.
8
We all die. We leave our legacies behind with hopes that they continue to survive long after we are gone. These were the legacies of an entire civilization, and we will be here to witness their destruction.
An assault on art is an assault on the highest of human aspirations and achievement. I'm saving this slide show. I'm afraid this is the last we'll ever see of these.
9
Well, we don't want an iranian backed regime in power in syria so we undermine the regime and support a civil war. The last thing assad wants to do is devote forces to fighting in the estern desert. This is what comes of that policy. Either iran or saudi arabia is going to dominate the region - we are backing the wrong horse.
1
It seems like they are perfectly capable of staging attacks in the US. They are however smart enough not to force Obama to take action while he is busy fighting the war on climate change. Based on his speech today at the Coast Guard Academy Commencement this is his top concern and priority.
Meanwhile they are busy acquiring more land and expanding their military capabilities.
Meanwhile they are busy acquiring more land and expanding their military capabilities.
10
Obama is right. IS is a unserious, and not worthy of the attention it gets. It's just a game in the ME ammong a bunch of tribes, Iran being the only serious country in the area.
1
I guess it's like Bush telling Americans to go shopping after starting an unnecessary war and being the first POTUS to cut taxes in wartime.
1
Supporting an ineffectual, cowardly army, (the Iraqi Shiite Army), with air support and guidance alone has proven to be an ineffective strategy. The Shiites appear to be only capable of manning checkpoints (poorly given their belief in mahgic wands for bomb detection), or acting as a militia. They will fall all the way back to their ethnic lands. Thus ends the nation of Iraq, and so begins the formation of three new countries. The US should then support a second Sunni awakiening, but tell them that they will be given all of the lands ISIS has seized as their new country. And no tribal lines ever need be crossed again.
2
What I can't understand is: If the tombs and columns were left standing when Muhammad himself was alive and later during the golden age of the Caliphate, why are they so offensive now? ISIS says they want to go back in time; but the truest Islam there ever was or possibly could be left the site undamaged.
It's just a shame that the ruins should have lasted all these years and then these guys come along on our watch (literally). I'm afraid it's a harbinger of a future when food and clean water and good land become something something scarce to fight over. In other words: I'm afraid that a lot of things that never happened before are just around the corner.
P.S I seems like Jimmy Carter got a lot of thing right. He tried to wean us off imported oil by asking people to put on a sweater and with his solar panels. And in retrospect he hit the "malaise" nail right on the head too.. People just didn't want to hear about it. Thank you, American exceptionalism.
You know when I was a kid in the 1950's, I think American exceptionalism was a true thing. But after Vietnam and Iraq, our reputation was ruined.
It's just a shame that the ruins should have lasted all these years and then these guys come along on our watch (literally). I'm afraid it's a harbinger of a future when food and clean water and good land become something something scarce to fight over. In other words: I'm afraid that a lot of things that never happened before are just around the corner.
P.S I seems like Jimmy Carter got a lot of thing right. He tried to wean us off imported oil by asking people to put on a sweater and with his solar panels. And in retrospect he hit the "malaise" nail right on the head too.. People just didn't want to hear about it. Thank you, American exceptionalism.
You know when I was a kid in the 1950's, I think American exceptionalism was a true thing. But after Vietnam and Iraq, our reputation was ruined.
31
I am so sorry.
I can barely muster a sigh for the ruins of Palmyra, which is a pity, as clearly they are a world treasure.
But so are the lives of the people of Syria and Iraq and Afghanistan. So too the lives of thousands of Americans killed in the war.
And trillions of dollars spent with nothing to show for it, and billions of armaments now being used by ISIS.
Twelve years and it is all crumbling. Some blame Bush, some blame Obama, and the bad guy is Saddam. Or Assad. Or Malaki. Or whoever is the current president of Afghanistan.
I'm sorry, but I'm done with this mess.
I get flashes of desperate people trying to climb aboard a departing helicopter from the roof of a building in Saigon . . .
I can barely muster a sigh for the ruins of Palmyra, which is a pity, as clearly they are a world treasure.
But so are the lives of the people of Syria and Iraq and Afghanistan. So too the lives of thousands of Americans killed in the war.
And trillions of dollars spent with nothing to show for it, and billions of armaments now being used by ISIS.
Twelve years and it is all crumbling. Some blame Bush, some blame Obama, and the bad guy is Saddam. Or Assad. Or Malaki. Or whoever is the current president of Afghanistan.
I'm sorry, but I'm done with this mess.
I get flashes of desperate people trying to climb aboard a departing helicopter from the roof of a building in Saigon . . .
8
I totally agree.
How can you really be done? You can ignore it, and this is what we've been doing, really, just as we ignore climate change. Our privileged time will end -- not that I wish to sound like a prophet of doom, but the Middle East may collapse. Is Daesh's goal not Saudi Arabia? And of course the oceans will claim Miami and then New York, maybe DC. It's a helluva mess.
1
The possible destruction of the antiquities is certianly dreadful. However, what is more disgusting is our urge to get up an arms about the war in Syria (or Iraq) only when there is a threat to the ruins. Ruins! Stones! When humans are pleading for help and hopelessly dying, a whole quarter of a million of them by now, we idly stand by and do nothing. But when ruins are under threat, that's game changer and call for action.
Disgusting!
Disgusting!
6
We must step in. Yes, boots on the ground. This is a world heritage.
2
You and your family's boots.
When is the last time you took incomiong?
When is the last time you took incomiong?
Richard Humphrey
When Egypt was on fire, I listened to an exchange between an American professor excavating a temple in the desert near Luxor and a humanitarian relief worker who was nearly assassinated and worried for the safety of colleagues. Both of these people were linked together in preserving the Human Condition.
When Egypt was on fire, I listened to an exchange between an American professor excavating a temple in the desert near Luxor and a humanitarian relief worker who was nearly assassinated and worried for the safety of colleagues. Both of these people were linked together in preserving the Human Condition.
As perhaps only a footnote to the likely doom of Palmyra, there is the story of the final destruction of the Library of Alexandria in Egypt, which had been much damaged by invaders, and Roman Emperors, from Julius Caesar to the Christian Theodosius.
The final destruction was reportedly ordered by the Caliph Omar in the 7th century CE. The much abused Library was ordered completely demolished, and its contents burned, because there was nothing in it exalting the Prophet, or Islam, as the final divine revelation to mankind.
When Luciano Canfora told the story in his book, "The Vanished Library" his work was lambasted by Bernard Lewis for pointing the finger at ancient Islam with such claims, no matter how adequately documented. Apparently liberal intellectuals know best.
For years we have heard from liberals, and leftists, how Al Quaeda does not represent Islam, how Boko Haram does not represent Islam, or how ISIS does not represent Islam. How the Afghan Taliban's destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas did not represent Islam. It goes on and on. And yet, who in the Wahabbist movement, the predominant Sunni Saudi theology, denounces the destruction of non-Islamic heritage? Who in the Twelver Shia theologic tradition, which is predominant in Iran, defends the culture of the world outside Islam?
The Western Left, so long in denial about fundamentalist Islam, has clearly helped enable religious fanatics. Despite the fact the enemies of their enemies are still their enemies.
The final destruction was reportedly ordered by the Caliph Omar in the 7th century CE. The much abused Library was ordered completely demolished, and its contents burned, because there was nothing in it exalting the Prophet, or Islam, as the final divine revelation to mankind.
When Luciano Canfora told the story in his book, "The Vanished Library" his work was lambasted by Bernard Lewis for pointing the finger at ancient Islam with such claims, no matter how adequately documented. Apparently liberal intellectuals know best.
For years we have heard from liberals, and leftists, how Al Quaeda does not represent Islam, how Boko Haram does not represent Islam, or how ISIS does not represent Islam. How the Afghan Taliban's destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas did not represent Islam. It goes on and on. And yet, who in the Wahabbist movement, the predominant Sunni Saudi theology, denounces the destruction of non-Islamic heritage? Who in the Twelver Shia theologic tradition, which is predominant in Iran, defends the culture of the world outside Islam?
The Western Left, so long in denial about fundamentalist Islam, has clearly helped enable religious fanatics. Despite the fact the enemies of their enemies are still their enemies.
22
I would say that the right wingers, oil profiteers, have done much more than the left to enable these religious fanatics. Given that the US Oil Companies are heavily invested in Saudi oil, and given that even your laptop case is derived from oil products or was shipped to your home by oil consuming vehicles, we've all enabled what you call "fundamentalist Islam." Clearly, it's been Western dollars through Saudi sheikhs (and Western dollars stolen from Iraqi banks) that have enabled "fundamentalist Islam." Finally, I would propose that what you call "fundamentalist Islam" is nothing more than an organized crime entity, using "Islam" as a recruiting tool. So don't blame the liberals for this mess. Blame it on a gullible American electorate manipulated by those who are invested in the military industrial complex.
I would be far more outraged if ISIS were in Africa killing the worlds last Rhino, or in Brazil burning down the rain forest - natural features of our planet which took millions of years to create and which would be a shame to lose. What is in Palmyra are stones, carved by men, and in the last 2000 years. In the grand scheme of the earth, they are not so significant.
Stay out America, Stay out. Eventually this will get big enough to attract the big boys - Turkey, Egypt, Israel and they will settle it.
Stay out America, Stay out. Eventually this will get big enough to attract the big boys - Turkey, Egypt, Israel and they will settle it.
6
How about protecting innocent women from sexual slavery, children from watching their fathers killed (crucified) in front of them, thousands of Christians murdered for their faith, millions running away from villages where their ancestors have lived for centuries and minorities killed, relocated and persecuted because of their religion? How does this compare to your rhinos and Brazilian forest?
We must begrudgingly recognize the resolve and prowess of ruthless barbarians !
Now is the perfect time and opportunity for America to EXTERMINATE them with SUDDEN OVERWHELMING force and equally merciless resolve !
This will restore America's respect in the World and regain her glory when noble deeds prevail !
Isis MUST be exterminated BEFORE they can advance another step and only America has the TRUE GRIT to accomplish this as Iraqi soldiers have abandoned their posts and run like scared rabbits !
Now is the perfect time and opportunity for America to EXTERMINATE them with SUDDEN OVERWHELMING force and equally merciless resolve !
This will restore America's respect in the World and regain her glory when noble deeds prevail !
Isis MUST be exterminated BEFORE they can advance another step and only America has the TRUE GRIT to accomplish this as Iraqi soldiers have abandoned their posts and run like scared rabbits !
3
Have you signed up yet?
4
Hey, the barbarians took over Rome. In hindsight, it will perhaps be seen as the march of history.
In terms of trying to stop the events that are happening, our coffers are not overflowing, and then there are the soldiers -- they all come back mad. We really cannot keep this up.
In terms of trying to stop the events that are happening, our coffers are not overflowing, and then there are the soldiers -- they all come back mad. We really cannot keep this up.
The loss of historic heritage is heart-breaking, but the question is what can be done?
Will the US, or any other Western power, be willing to commit to full scale military operations to combat ISIS? What would that look like, when the Syrian government is still hostile to us and ISIS is not the only military faction on the ground in Syria and Iraq? Would it provoke Russian intervention, who may see this as a decision to displace their ally in Damascus? If US troops operate only in Iraq, will that accomplish anything when ISIS need only retreat across a line in the sand?
What will happen once US troops deploy on the ground? Will ISIS turn into asymmetric warfare and we will end re-fighting the Iraq occupation of the 2000's all over again? Will the Shiites turn against us once the US are viewed as occupiers once again , as Iraqi Shiites like Muqtada al-Sadr did in the 2000's?
Most importantly, ISIS is now focused on conquering Syria and Iraq. But if that goal becomes impossible and the US becomes their main opponent, will they re-focus their operations on terrorist attacks on US soil?
Will the US, or any other Western power, be willing to commit to full scale military operations to combat ISIS? What would that look like, when the Syrian government is still hostile to us and ISIS is not the only military faction on the ground in Syria and Iraq? Would it provoke Russian intervention, who may see this as a decision to displace their ally in Damascus? If US troops operate only in Iraq, will that accomplish anything when ISIS need only retreat across a line in the sand?
What will happen once US troops deploy on the ground? Will ISIS turn into asymmetric warfare and we will end re-fighting the Iraq occupation of the 2000's all over again? Will the Shiites turn against us once the US are viewed as occupiers once again , as Iraqi Shiites like Muqtada al-Sadr did in the 2000's?
Most importantly, ISIS is now focused on conquering Syria and Iraq. But if that goal becomes impossible and the US becomes their main opponent, will they re-focus their operations on terrorist attacks on US soil?
2
Send our well-regulated militia NRA members to do the fighting. Their magazines hold more ammo than the Marines' do anyway. And have their heroic Generals Bush, Cheney, Bremer, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity, Wolfowitz, Bundy, LaPierre etc. lead from the front. Why...just hearing that these brave and brilliant war-fighters will be leading the charge will no doubt be enough to make ISIS surrender.
35
Hey, Cowboy Marine: Thanks for the perfect solution!!
7
The GOP wants more US troops deployed.. Why?.. History tells us that "our' Koreans could not defeat those No. Koreans. "our Vietnamese could not defeat the other Vietnamese, Our Afghans can't defeat the other Afghans. 'Our' Cubans lost badly against Castro's Cubans. So our Iraqis throw down their long and well trained arms in the sand when ISIS shows up.
GOP draft dodgers listen up... no foreigners want to die for or under the US Flag.. Soldiers are willing to fight and die for their own country under their own flag. .. Ask an Israeli .. what's so difficult to learn?
GOP draft dodgers listen up... no foreigners want to die for or under the US Flag.. Soldiers are willing to fight and die for their own country under their own flag. .. Ask an Israeli .. what's so difficult to learn?
5
They're not our Iraqi's. The problem is that they are Sunni, Shiite and Kurd before they are Iraqi citizens. Although the Kurds seem to have it together a lot more then the other tribes. Don't know your heritage, but I would assume you consider yourself a American first.
WE unleashed the ancient simmering hatreds between these groups and dozens more, and now the fire is destroying the historical heritage of mankind. Untold numbers will die before the fire burns out.
Clearly, we have no intention of stopping any of it. Why should we? We've given our own barbarians who started it by invading Iraq a pass. We have no honor. No decency. Not any more. We will pay a terrible price for our arrogance.
Clearly, we have no intention of stopping any of it. Why should we? We've given our own barbarians who started it by invading Iraq a pass. We have no honor. No decency. Not any more. We will pay a terrible price for our arrogance.
Obama's strategy regarding ISIS is going real well isn't it?
Air power failed in Vietnam, ultimately failed in Iraq and Afghanistan and failed in Libya, but Obama thinks "surgical" airstrikes and training our feckless "allies" will do the job to defeat ISIS.
What a fool. We have learned nothing in 70 years (with 1 exception, George H. W. Bush). If you go to war, you go to win and you go all out. Otherwise you are doomed to failure. The first President Bush knew this, did what he set out to do and got out.
Air power failed in Vietnam, ultimately failed in Iraq and Afghanistan and failed in Libya, but Obama thinks "surgical" airstrikes and training our feckless "allies" will do the job to defeat ISIS.
What a fool. We have learned nothing in 70 years (with 1 exception, George H. W. Bush). If you go to war, you go to win and you go all out. Otherwise you are doomed to failure. The first President Bush knew this, did what he set out to do and got out.
5
In a related development, to show their gratitude for the gift of toppling Saddam, ISIS has decided to rename the place "Bushabad".
7
After the fall of Ramadi apparently there was a massive victory parade involving hundreds of Isis vehicles and fighters. I am curious as to why this massive confluence of enemy force was not met with a massive airstrike from the 60 Nation coalition? These ISIS belligerents seem pretty comfortable......comfortable enough to celebrate in broad daylight.
Makes you wonder.........lots of unanswered questions come to mind.
Makes you wonder.........lots of unanswered questions come to mind.
19
Think about them crossing the desert from city to city with a line of vehicles, fighters, etc.. A clear target in the desert? Seems there is desert surrounding this ancient Syrian City of Palmyra. No doubt the Syrian government is weak after fighting over 4 years and are fighting elsewhere. Where is our illustrious coalition?
Why were we intent on undermining the government of Syria when it was clear the government was struggling against the most dangerous fighters?
2
This is not just a Shia and Sunni war this is a conflict that is a direct threat to our security. If we believe that Al Qaida and ISIS are threats to our security than it is ludicrous to fight ISIS with one hand tied behind our back.
Obama has restrained our fighting force because he believes in a ridiculous notion that one can segment the rebels. All our Islamic and all are extremists.
Thus it is high time that Obama stop supporting our enemies and start supporting Assad on the fight against ISIS and al Nusra front. it might also be a good idea to not rely on our so called friend Saudia Arabia, Qatar and Turkey all of whom are supporters of Islamic extremism.
By failing to do so, ISIS has only gotten stronger and has every other Islamic extremist group.
It begs the question; DId Osama win in the end?
Obama has restrained our fighting force because he believes in a ridiculous notion that one can segment the rebels. All our Islamic and all are extremists.
Thus it is high time that Obama stop supporting our enemies and start supporting Assad on the fight against ISIS and al Nusra front. it might also be a good idea to not rely on our so called friend Saudia Arabia, Qatar and Turkey all of whom are supporters of Islamic extremism.
By failing to do so, ISIS has only gotten stronger and has every other Islamic extremist group.
It begs the question; DId Osama win in the end?
5
No, neither al Qaeda or ISIS are serious threats to American security in a significant way since they do not have transcontinental ballistic capacity.
The mid-East nations will destroy themselves as they choose - they are not significant trading partners when importing oil is taken out of the equation, as well they should be. Our focus should be on our relations with Europe and Asia, not the sordid squabbles of the failed nations of the mid-East.
The mid-East nations will destroy themselves as they choose - they are not significant trading partners when importing oil is taken out of the equation, as well they should be. Our focus should be on our relations with Europe and Asia, not the sordid squabbles of the failed nations of the mid-East.
When you look at the costs of asymmetric warfare, the answer is that he did win.
In his book "China 1945," Richard Bernstein writes that at one point Truman faced three options with China: "Bad,” “worse” and “terrible"--and, in Bernstein' words, "Truman wisely chose 'bad.'”
With ISIS, we face terrible, horrible and horrific. Here's hoping Obama chooses "terrible."
With ISIS, we face terrible, horrible and horrific. Here's hoping Obama chooses "terrible."
40
What would "terrible" look like?
Clearly between the US, Iraq, and stable ME countries the will, intelligence, and an appreciation of practical reality is no where near the level of the hollow rhetoric we are fed. If resources, force, and cooperation were marshaled and unified Isis as an effective military force would be over in short order.
Come on, we can't track Isis as it moves its forces to and fro on the few highways in the region. What ever happened to the mother of all targets? I suspect something smells in the approach the US and other powers involved are taking to the Isis conflict. Could it be that those powers want things to unfold along the lines of least resistance?
Isis moves freely from city to city unmolested while the regional governments the US and western media wrings it hands? I don't believe it.
Come on, we can't track Isis as it moves its forces to and fro on the few highways in the region. What ever happened to the mother of all targets? I suspect something smells in the approach the US and other powers involved are taking to the Isis conflict. Could it be that those powers want things to unfold along the lines of least resistance?
Isis moves freely from city to city unmolested while the regional governments the US and western media wrings it hands? I don't believe it.
14
Are you OK with sending in US ground troops?
1
yes, and I wonder just how it is the IS is able to extract and sell oil from the seized fields. If nothing else, couldn't the air forces of the U.S. and its allies pick off trucks, trains or boats transporting the stuff? The IS barbarians can't be carrying the oil in buckets to sell, can they?
1
Not suggested or implied.
This is still a Shia-Sunni civil war, stretched across several Arab Muslim countries. While it is tragic that ISIS destroys every bit of culture it captures, this is still an Arab issue that we in the U.S. cannot really do anything about.
7
We could but ppl thinking this isn't our issue is making it harder for us to do what's needed. Take note... Isis is already made clear now and in the future america is on their list. And not the bottom. We stepped into this and got so deep we can't just walk away. Maybe not today but one day if we don't stop them america will have them here I garentee
Yes, and speaking of that, people should realize that in most Mideast nations. Shi'a are the minority, and have historically been in the lower classes and persecuted by Sunni. The main exceptions are Iran, which is mostly Sh'ia and ruled by Sh'ia leaders, and Syria, which is most Sunni but yet is ruled by a sect of Shi'a -- Alawites, hence Iran's support of Bashar al-Assad.
In Iraq, the Muslim population of Iraq is approximately 60-70 percent Shi'a, 20-30 percent Sunni and 10 percent Kurdish. Yet historically the Shi'a majority has long been excluded from power and persecuted, and the Sunni -- including Saddam Hussein -- have ruled despite being a minority.
In Iraq, the Muslim population of Iraq is approximately 60-70 percent Shi'a, 20-30 percent Sunni and 10 percent Kurdish. Yet historically the Shi'a majority has long been excluded from power and persecuted, and the Sunni -- including Saddam Hussein -- have ruled despite being a minority.
1
Another victory for ISIS; and another defeat for invaluable relics of antiquity and the priceless lives of modernity living in Palmyra. The question that no one seems to be able to answer is: How long and how far will this fanatical horde be allowed to go before there is an adequate mobilization of "boots on the ground" to halt it. It's clear that no matter how much training and how much military hardware we provide to the Iraqi army, they are not up to the task. So far, it's been left to the Iranians, the Kurds and some Shiite militias, but they have been mostly protecting areas in the Kurdish north and the Shiite south. You would think that the Sunni Gulf states and Sunni Egypt and others in the Arab League of which Iraq is a member would be willing to come to the rescue of their coreligionists in the Sunni areas now controlled by ISIS would rush to their aid. If their so-called allies in the neighborhood are only willing to put their foot down in silence rather than their boots in support, then the U.S. should extricate itself from the region and only offer diplomatic assistance in restoring peace.
9
Seems Saudi Arabia and Gulf allies are more interested in bombing Yemen with our support.
1
Please let's hope they don't tear those structures apart, at the very least.
It is somewhat ironic that if they do go to the site to destroy the ruins they will only see what is remnants that they themselves might become in time.
It is somewhat ironic that if they do go to the site to destroy the ruins they will only see what is remnants that they themselves might become in time.
you can be sure they will destroy those ruins -- if they haven't done so already
Mission Accomplished.
Thanks Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney.
The world owe you both a debt of gratitude.
Thanks Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney.
The world owe you both a debt of gratitude.
31
Obama was warned about ISIS in 2013 and did nothing.
2
But what does the U.S hope to achieve in the Middle East? Are we dropping bombs in Yemen, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Somalia etc...so that when the dust settles, they can have a democratic system to govern their nations? Look what happened to the first democratically elected President of the most populous Arab nation in the world. He is languishing in prison and we are pouring billions into the hands of the military junta that placed him there.
The only people being fooled by the powers that be are Americans themselves. ISIS is strong and gaining more power because of American deceit and treachery.
The only people being fooled by the powers that be are Americans themselves. ISIS is strong and gaining more power because of American deceit and treachery.
21
Let us weep. This is the beginning of the end of an irreplaceable World treasure.
9
Wasn't this part of the world much more stable before we invaded Iraq?
62
No. Did you forget the Iran-Iraq War already?
1
Let us not forget the Arab Spring, dictatorships taken down, all while the current president looked on.
This is only the second decade of Bush's Hundred Year war.
32
Get off it, this is Obama's failed policy, remember the "red line" and Obama telling us ISIS is JV. The President frankly doesn't know how to respond to a problem he created by insisting on withdrawing all our troops. He created ISIS.
5
Obama was bound by a treaty bush signed requiring withdrawal of the troops. Try to at least get facts straight. Not everything is Obama's fault. If you think the root of this lies somewhere besides bush's misadventures, you are deluding yourself.
5
No tompe, Bush created it, and it was Bush who signed the agreement to withdraw. What's more, both Bush and Obama did want to leave some residual troops (not that I think they could have prevented these developments) but both presidents rightly insisted that American troops be under American law and Iraq insisted they be under Iraq law, hence the complete withdrawal. Frankly, we could have stayed there another 30 years and things would not change. Indeed they would probably get worse, because we would be seen as an occupying power.
1
I traveled to Syria in 1993 when Hafez Al Assad was in power. I remember visiting an ancient site somewhere in a desert and noting that Assad had excavated part of the site so that he could annex it with a monument to his own rule, a la Lenin or Mao. I'm not sure which is worse: expropriating priceless history to enlarge one's reputation, or destroying such antiquities to erase history itself. We might rewrite the words of Ozymandias: "Without my works, the mighty will despair." History is sacred. Wiping it out is a crime.
4
From these photos, it appears to me that it would be easy to target and eliminate any advancing destructive forces. Where is the world while this priceless cultural patrimony is on the eve of evaporation?
8
Given the immediate history of ISIS we can assume that these ancient buildings of Palmyra will be completely destroyed forever within days, perhaps hours. The Syrians will demolish their own heritage either through aggression or the failure to stop aggression. For those of us who study history and admire the achievements of ancient architects, this is deeply saddening.
Although such sites are categorized as UNESCO World Heritage Sites, they are nonetheless owned by the countries in which the exist, and we cannot stop their destruction.
Both Christians and Muslims have a long and shameless history of willfully destroying the art and architecture of previous civilizations.
Although such sites are categorized as UNESCO World Heritage Sites, they are nonetheless owned by the countries in which the exist, and we cannot stop their destruction.
Both Christians and Muslims have a long and shameless history of willfully destroying the art and architecture of previous civilizations.
9
Should the great ancient ruins of the past be under our watch?
I believe the answer is clearly yes, once one understands what is at stake.
My reasoning is, the children of tomorrow have a right to the past, to be able to walk among what remains of it as much as they have a right to walk alongside our great rivers or through pristine forests, and these things are, therefore, our duty to protect.
To destroy such things is barbarism, and must not be allowed to happen. Not under our watch.
I believe the answer is clearly yes, once one understands what is at stake.
My reasoning is, the children of tomorrow have a right to the past, to be able to walk among what remains of it as much as they have a right to walk alongside our great rivers or through pristine forests, and these things are, therefore, our duty to protect.
To destroy such things is barbarism, and must not be allowed to happen. Not under our watch.
10
Three friends and I had the immense privilege of touring Palmyra in late 2010, four months before the war in Syria began. The photographs cannot do justice to the majesty of the site. That ISI controls and may destroy this precious world treasure is unspeakably heart-breaking. I am deeply worried as well for the Syrian people we met there, some of whom still live in the site.
18
there are ways of protecting these valuable cultural relics from barbarism. Does anyone have the guts to use them?
7
What jm? Are you volunteering to lead some commandos to guard the site? Air power alone certainly would do the trick. Empty rhetoric on your part.
The gutsy choice is to stay out of the Middle East because the stupid Iraq war tore a hole in the region that made things infinitely worse. Our government only vaguely understands - if it understands at all -what drives tribal and religious conflicts there and what the consequences will be if we continue to interfere. We don't have a clue what to do there, we never did. At least we're figuring that out.
The region will pay for many generations for Bush/Cheney's stupidity. Let's just regret and stop thinking we can fix it.
The region will pay for many generations for Bush/Cheney's stupidity. Let's just regret and stop thinking we can fix it.
How does it keep happening that ISIS is much more capable on the offense than all our Pentagon thinkers are on the defense? And this a dozen years after George W. Bush and his followers foolishly rushed into Iraq only to find themselves completely unprepared for what they found or for what they have precipitated in the years since then. Not only have they had twelve years to become aware of their inept handling of the Iraq invasion but they have spent billions in the process. And the key question we now have is: Why is this bunch allowed to continue their ineffective and costly handling of the country's resources and lives that they continue to waste? Has anyone heard a word of remorse from the Bush/Cheney/Powell/Rumsfeld ringleaders that have brought our country into the crippled condition we find ourselves in as ISIS runs rings around us?
50
"Inept handling of Iraq"??? My dear chap, have you never heard of Blackwater, Aegis, KBR, or the 100,000 US civilian contractors who were in Iraq at the height of the golden age, sorry, war. There was nothing inept in the handling of Iraq. These companies made money by the truckful. From their point of view, the whole binge was a splendid success.
Does that answer your questions?
Does that answer your questions?
There is nothing the U.S. can do.
14
I suppose that the defense of such a magnificent and precious site doesn't qualify as a good reason for providing military support, like economical interests usually do. Let's cover the ruins with OIL and hope that they look more appealing and worth protection.
Disgusting.
Disgusting.
11
This is a really tragic development from a cultural perspective. Palmyra is of course one of the most important sites from the Ancient World in the whole Middle East. One can only hope that horrific cultural vandalism will not now ensue.
3
What a tragedy? Unfortunately with the spread of Saudi funded Wahhabi Islam over the last three decades, there may be further destruction of important historic sites in future. Palmyra, Khorsabad and Nineveh are only the most recent examples of such crimes. The founder of Saudi monarchy, King Abdulaziz, started his reign by destroying several historic monuments in Medina in early twentieth century. This practice has continued ever since. More recently the magnificent ancient Buddha statues in Bamyan, Afghanistan were destroyed by Saudi funded extremist groups.
The only solution to such destruction is for the local populations to take greater pride and care of such historic jewels. They should not be just regarded as tourist destinations, but rather as part of the cultural heritage, identity and DNA of the nations even if they were created before those nations adopted Islam. Imagine Stonehenge or the Roman Pantheon, two pre-Christian monuments which are very much part of the cultural heritage.
Looking at the Middle East, only in few countries such as Israel, Iran and perhaps Egypt, do the citizens feel such attachment and pride in the ancient monuments in their midst. In most other countries, from Turkey to North Africa such monuments tend to be regarded as the remnants of a different culture, religion or people. It is this perception that needs to change.
The only solution to such destruction is for the local populations to take greater pride and care of such historic jewels. They should not be just regarded as tourist destinations, but rather as part of the cultural heritage, identity and DNA of the nations even if they were created before those nations adopted Islam. Imagine Stonehenge or the Roman Pantheon, two pre-Christian monuments which are very much part of the cultural heritage.
Looking at the Middle East, only in few countries such as Israel, Iran and perhaps Egypt, do the citizens feel such attachment and pride in the ancient monuments in their midst. In most other countries, from Turkey to North Africa such monuments tend to be regarded as the remnants of a different culture, religion or people. It is this perception that needs to change.
15
Personally, I was glad to see the fall of ramadi, just as I would love to see the fall of baghdad. That will cause the breakup of iraq into its constituent parts, which will include a much deserving establishment of Kurdistan. The iraqi govt has been a failure on so many grounds it is impossible to list them all. It is great that they are seen for the embarrassment that they are.
While our invasion of iraq was wrong, it did give the iraqis a chance to create any kind of country they wanted. Clearly, they chose religious civil war and settling old scores over civil society; now, they are reaping what they have sown.
We lost 5,000 priceless American lives and dumped over a trillion dollars in part to create an armed forces which would protect iraq. Another failure on the iraqi govt's part: tens of thousands of them can't hold off a few thousand clowns who train on the monkey bars.
Keep U.S. troops completely out, these clowns are no threat to us. not even a threat to anyone in the region outside of iraq and syria. What they control might look impressive on a map, but it is mostly empty desert. This is part of a proxy war between sunni and shia; clearly, the saudis and turks support isis - so why would we put one American life at risk for this?
While our invasion of iraq was wrong, it did give the iraqis a chance to create any kind of country they wanted. Clearly, they chose religious civil war and settling old scores over civil society; now, they are reaping what they have sown.
We lost 5,000 priceless American lives and dumped over a trillion dollars in part to create an armed forces which would protect iraq. Another failure on the iraqi govt's part: tens of thousands of them can't hold off a few thousand clowns who train on the monkey bars.
Keep U.S. troops completely out, these clowns are no threat to us. not even a threat to anyone in the region outside of iraq and syria. What they control might look impressive on a map, but it is mostly empty desert. This is part of a proxy war between sunni and shia; clearly, the saudis and turks support isis - so why would we put one American life at risk for this?
66
The break-up of Iraq will not be the end of bloodshed. It will only usher in a new phase. The break-up of Yugoslavia did not result in the ethnic groups all going their merry, peaceful way. It presaged huge ethnic cleansing campaigns. Iraq will have the same with different sects and ethnicity, once all pretense of having to live together is gone. The worst-off will be the likes of the small minorities like Yazidis.
1
As we dither Isis marches on. We broke it and really whose fault its broke means nothing now. No boots on the ground is not working. We kidnap one woman and they take cities. Drones is not going to win this one. Our nation building adventure is really a bust. Not willing to use our military is costing us big time. Waiting on the Iraqi army to grow a spine is like watching paint dry. If our army is only for defensive purposes then we need to bring them home and build a moot. Someone needs to stand up to the bully and so far no one is answering the call. No one wants to fight but when a fight is warranted how do we explain having the best army in the world and being too timid to use it. This trying to find militias to arm is crazy. Our arms are being left on the field of battle only to be recycled by the bad guys. We can't just stick our toes in the water and hope for a champion to materialize. We need to either get in the fight or pack it in and accept whatever happens. Training the Iraqi army has only taught them how to run faster. Problem is they always run in the wrong direction. I wonder if the 47 senators who advocate bombing Iran to keep them from getting a nuke ever read the papers? Our daily bombing is really turning the tide against Isis. Yea right!
20
If "timid" is the word you choose then I'm glad we're timid. I tend to think the word is "wise."
11
Tim so true your comment. So let’s bring them home and use that money to raise and educate our children. Wise would have been to not go in the first place. Wiser is to cut your losses and accept the fact we are not always the wisest. Thousands of years of animosity is not going to be resolved by us. Playing the Little Dutch Boy is not working. The dam is breaking and we have not enough fingers to plug it. We bombed Hanoi until it was nothing left to bomb we lost fifty thousand troops playing the limited war game and we lost. Wise people know when you are in a hole you need to stop digging.
13
Well, as we wisely sit on our hands, the world burns. So much for our wisdom.
2
So much for the argument that the world is better off without Saddam. Jeb's brother is indeed responsible for creating ISIS. According to the Bush narrative, democracy should be breaking out all over the Middle East by now. How's that working out?
218
The true Bush narrative is, an attempt was made in good faith to encourage democracy in the Middle East where it has failed to take root except for Israel, Tunisia and partly in Turkey. American blood and treasure was sacrificed to this end, with little thanks from the intended beneficiaries. ISIS is a product purely of local conditions and to say America created it is ludicrous. Saddam was his own special kind of torturer and killer, no better and potentially even worse than the SS-style ISIS: who knows today what malign legacy would exist from him and his progeny but for being taken out by American and other allied arms, a fate he richly deserved? That guy could have bought 1000 atomic bombs even had he finally given up his do-it-your own nuclear hubris.
It's not "working out" great, but it's manageable for now and with real resolution in the White House - it will probably take the next one, or the one after - a lot more could be done.
It's not "working out" great, but it's manageable for now and with real resolution in the White House - it will probably take the next one, or the one after - a lot more could be done.
3
What about the intervening cause of President Obama's blatant disregard of the advice of every General not to withdraw troops from Iraq. He was told what would happen and it happened. But the President knew better. What arrogance!
You can blame Bush and you should. But Obama does not get a free pass here. He's accountable.
You can blame Bush and you should. But Obama does not get a free pass here. He's accountable.
5
Even though Clinton and Kerry supported President Bush and voted for the Iraq war, a huge mistake based on inaccurate intelligence, the fact is the war was won in 2007. The surge worked, al Qaeda in Iraq was defeated, and from 2008 to 2011 violence was essentially non existent.
Present Obama's failure, either by design or not, didn't get a statis of force agreement and turned victory into defeat. It gave rise to ISIS in Iraq And the mess we witness today. And sorry Ben Rose and Sanan Rice are incapable of putting together a viable strategy.
Present Obama's failure, either by design or not, didn't get a statis of force agreement and turned victory into defeat. It gave rise to ISIS in Iraq And the mess we witness today. And sorry Ben Rose and Sanan Rice are incapable of putting together a viable strategy.
1
Why should ISIS forces in Palmyra pose any problem for bombing them out of the city? U.S. airstrikes by jets, drones and cruise missiles are renowned for and touted as precision guided weapons. Why else are there so few civilian casualties by U.S. military power throughout the Muslim world?
4
That depends on your definition of the word "few." Since the U.S. invaded Iraq the estimates of deaths are anywhere from a couple of hundred thousands to one-half million, most of those civilians. The reality is no one knows how many have died, let alone become casualties. Probably if you or your loved ones were living in or around Palmyra you wouldn't be so eager to employ lethal force.
3
@boson777
I was being facetious. I agree with you 10,000%
I was being facetious. I agree with you 10,000%
2
Anyone who cares about the preservation of human cultural history, not to mention contemporary culture, is just sickened by this radical turn toward inchoate, mindless, violent darkness.
73
Never mind the 200,000 killed and millions displaced. When they attack museum artifacts they have crossed the line.
5
This behavior has long been part of the history of Islamic conquests - don't forget the loss of the Alexandria libraries and more as they swept across north Africa.
Well, we are unable to preserve nature and our environment (consider the insane greedy lust for such polluting filth as gas fracking or the extraction and spillage of the black toxic ooze and smut of the underground) so why would preservation of human cultural history be any different? I know that an enormous amount of cultural history has been destroyed right here in North America.
Looks like they ran out of gas when they needed it the most.
I think more and more people are going to realize if they haven't already, that ISIS has far better leadership and planning than America does.
16
The other 99.99% of us realize that once the US president is legitimately elected, and not imposed on us against the will of the people as per the popular vote, then we have a chance of true government. However, where the leadership is imposed on us, such as in 2000, then nothing that follows is in line with the will of the people, but is treason write large.
12
No it doesn't, not by a long shot. What ISIS has, currently, is more resolve. That will change one day when Americans and all decent people wake up to what is really going on. Think 1941-1942...
3
They are one and the same.
Yet another historical monument falls into ISIS hands. That terrorist organization is famous for hating history and culture. I hope the UN will do something about it. Destruction of such places should not be allowed.
11
Is this the outcome that America and its western Europe allies were after when they fostered the destabilization of Syria and Libya by toppling Muammar al-Gaddafi and Bashar al-Assad? Was the turmoil and suffering visited on the region an unintended outcome, or was it expected and intentional? Could the western democracies be that naive, or that evil?
27
Assad remains entirely in place because Russia kept him there check mating the west. Syrians started this. Not the U.S.
2
A great question. I vote for "naive".
Syria's Assad has not been toppled. He is fighting ISIS and other violent extremists whose rise in Syria began with Assad's war against political dissenters and ordinary citizens. Western nations have done little in response to this mass slaughter of civilians - in large part because Russia, one of Assad's few friends, has stymied almost every effort by the Security Council to act.
And to think that 70 some odd years ago, when confronted with an evil whos' depth was still unknown, we sent a green and untested Army (most who had not even traveled to the next county!) 1/2 way around the world; set them upon a determined enemy, learned about war the hard way, and in less than 5 years crushed them. The surviving citizen soldiers then returned home to build this country. Those that paid the ultimate price we remember daily.
Today, no one wants to make a decision concerning right/wrong. Everything needs to be "means tested". Foreign policy does not exist. The national consensus is "let's talk about it". We have no national goals. The best we seem capable of doing is posting rants to newspaper columns.
Today, no one wants to make a decision concerning right/wrong. Everything needs to be "means tested". Foreign policy does not exist. The national consensus is "let's talk about it". We have no national goals. The best we seem capable of doing is posting rants to newspaper columns.
34
Hmmm... it's important not to leave out that there were serious blunders committed by military leaders that sent US soldiers into harm's way needlessly, and that there were multiple countries fighting in that war- the Europeans and the Australians who fought and died deserve credit too. The soldiers who returned were strangely insistent on pushing women aside, pretending that the women who really built this nation and kept it alive through 2 World Wars were not important - have we evolved beyond that mindless sexism? Not sure. And after 8 years of reckless, lie-based hatred destroying the US at home and abroad from 2000-2008, when our government was stolen from us by trickery, treason and fraud, and a fake war based on lies destroyed our morale, we finally have a White House that we can be proud of again. The US is alive and well, and has regained our respect and standing around the world - but you have to want to know the truth to see that. We have suffered again and again from lies - including the evil "swift-boating" fabrications launched at John Kerry, costing us another great president for one of the worst ever, but we have even survived that, and we are ever vigilant now to root out liars and the billionaires who use them. Be warned, liars and frauds, we are on to you, particularly in the comments section.
8
I hate to point out that those guys, they were mostly guys, became the leaders of this country and send us full tilt on the slippery slope to uncalled for dubious interventions in foreign lands, from Korea to Vietnam and beyond.
3
Not remotely comparable situations.
4
I worked on eighteenth century drawings of this site when I was in college. My heart is breaking because of the risk to its beautiful stones, but above all for the people who have been abandoned to such impending horror. But let us not forget that the comparable horrors of the last century were almost all the work of the west and many of the Allies: Dresden and Hiroshima besides the German destruction of so much as well . . . If we really cared about heritage we would never have bombed Iraq. I still remember watching the propaganda about how accurate our pinpoint aim was, but a great deal of the fundamental heritage of humankind was lost.
26
I believe we have on purpose created ISIS and are supplying it with armaments. We do this by pretending to train the Iraqi "army" provide them with weapons which they abandon as ISIS closes in.
5
Our "leaders" are not that clever. You give them way too much credit.
Well, the Daesh will surely vandalize, destroy, and sell bits of these archaeological sites, because that's what they do. If people would prefer to save them, then the Daesh will need to be destroyed, by which I mean kill enough of them that the rest disperse and make no more trouble. Since nobody seems particularly interested in or capable of doing that, it's time to say goodbye to Palmyra for good, and be thankful for the fact that archaeologists removed some parts of it beforehand.
Also one can take solace in the fact that plenty of brand-new ruins are being produced in Syria and the surrounding area by these barbarians, for later archaeologists to pore over and wonder exactly how savage current humans were.
Also one can take solace in the fact that plenty of brand-new ruins are being produced in Syria and the surrounding area by these barbarians, for later archaeologists to pore over and wonder exactly how savage current humans were.
23
It's true we're creating ruins. But are we creating anything like the art of Palmyra or the Hittites? Those winged bulls?
I think it is safe to say that no westerners will visit these places for a generation. It seems to me, we're losing and they're losing. They will have no economy without us. So in other words, they will extinguish themselves.
8
Had Obama listened to the Russians on this issue the Islamic state fighters would have lost by now but Obama cannot even control 3rd world rioters in our own cities how will he save heritage sites overseas, and we cannot count on helplessly liberal European governments to do anything they can't even deal with north African junk boats, so many ancient relics have been destroyed either by fog of war or deliberately its an outright disaster
10
I'm reading the comments just to see how many people are crying over the loss of ancient artifacts and I wasn't disappointed. Priorities people! There are thousands of people being slaughtered! Ruins is the least important thing in this story!
19
We can always make more people, and we are, to the point where the planet is grossly overpopulated. We can't make any more historical sites like these.I disagree with your priorities.
4
As an inappropriate but simplified analogy, one needs air and water to survive. Neither is less important than or gets prioritized over the other.
Sorry, the ruins are more valuable than the people involved. Palmyra is not populated, it's a historical artifact that ISIS wants to destroy just to prove a point. ISIS is a nihilistic cult that will stop at nothing until it's completely destroyed. Just imagine what Europe would look like had all ancient architecture been destroyed during the Second World War. Keep them away, all gloves off.
3
If you've voted for the President, as I have, and want to see a Democratic President, and maybe Senate, come 2017, you better be vocal now and make it clear that you want foreign and defense policies that are squarely facing and dealing with reality.
If you don't, you're going to end up with one of the motley crew seeking the GOP nomination as President.
And we can't afford that.
If you don't, you're going to end up with one of the motley crew seeking the GOP nomination as President.
And we can't afford that.
15
... And as the Mid-East decends into Chaos... All that Obama does is talk about Global Warming and the Environment ...
Fyi... former Sec. of Defense, Bill Gates said yesterday that the U.S. has no policy for the Middle East ...
Well "Kumbaya" in action
Fyi... former Sec. of Defense, Bill Gates said yesterday that the U.S. has no policy for the Middle East ...
Well "Kumbaya" in action
10
So that's your great insight ... it's Obama's fault?
Instead of blowing on the dog whistle with the same tired, racist clichés, how about sharing some real ideas? Oh, but the right doesn't have any.
And, a reality check ... isis controls a whole bunch of desert. Yawn ...
Instead of blowing on the dog whistle with the same tired, racist clichés, how about sharing some real ideas? Oh, but the right doesn't have any.
And, a reality check ... isis controls a whole bunch of desert. Yawn ...
4
and so mr Kissinger, you're recommending what exactly?
14
Global warming and the environment is a lot more important than Mideast chaos. Mideast chaos has always existed, since the beginning of history it's been a war-torn region. But global warming and environmental degradation will undoubtedly make the entire region devoid of human life through desertification, much as nobody lives in the middle of the Gobi desert today. So the Mideast is just a temporary phenomenon now, but global warming is going to continue to reshape the planet for centuries and is thus far more important.
37
Those syrian army who used chemical weapons against innocent poulation will be now helped by USA with airstrikes. Those syrian army who killed 100 daily since 2011 for 3 years with millions displaced and prisoners and hundred of thousands killed long ago the appearance of ISIS, will now be helped by USA airstrikes to help bashar assad,the chemical weapons user, will be helped by democracy champion,obama to help dictator stay. Ignoring this facts that for 3 years, innocent protestors were killed and when those people brothers took arms,now they are terrorists. Syrian democracy struggle started in 2011 and ISIS created in 2014. Reason. The world helped the worst chemical weapon user dictator badhar assad by just remaing spectator. Still remains spectator
4
Saddam Hussein is certainly laughing in his grave, stretched neck and all. He alone possessed the characteristics required to rule a country comprised of three completely different 7th century peoples (Sunni, Kurdish, and Shiite). Ruthless as he appeared, only as ruthless as required to keep "peace" where none will ever exist again. Saddam Hussein is responsible for killing only a fraction of those who died in Mr. Bush's shock and awe. Oh, wishing for the good old days of containment!
120
Suggestions like yours confuse cause with cure. Do you really believe the average Iraqi is so interested (or even well-informed) about disagreements of religious doctrine that they will wreck their own lives just to kill somebody of another sect?
The bad blood between Shiites and Sunnis is Iraq are due to the privileged position minority Sunnis always had over the majority Shiites. The Sunnis were privileged under the Ottomans, and during the British mandate a select group of Sunni officers were left to control the majority of Sunnis, following the British imperial policy of divide-and-govern.
Saddam continued this policy. He privileged Sunnis while suppressing the Shiite majority. The more brutal his suppression, the deeper the sectarian resentment. The result was a pressure cooker that was getting ready to explode. The 2003 US invasion took the lid off, and unsurprisingly many Shiites took the opportunity to get payback.
More brutality is not the answer. Look at Syria and Libya. These were countries where strong men rules through iron-fisted tactics, which creates the illusion of normality right up to the point where everything explodes.
The bad blood between Shiites and Sunnis is Iraq are due to the privileged position minority Sunnis always had over the majority Shiites. The Sunnis were privileged under the Ottomans, and during the British mandate a select group of Sunni officers were left to control the majority of Sunnis, following the British imperial policy of divide-and-govern.
Saddam continued this policy. He privileged Sunnis while suppressing the Shiite majority. The more brutal his suppression, the deeper the sectarian resentment. The result was a pressure cooker that was getting ready to explode. The 2003 US invasion took the lid off, and unsurprisingly many Shiites took the opportunity to get payback.
More brutality is not the answer. Look at Syria and Libya. These were countries where strong men rules through iron-fisted tactics, which creates the illusion of normality right up to the point where everything explodes.
1
Any day now we are going to find those weapons of mass destruction and the George W. Bush/Dick Cheney fiasco in Iraq which spawned ISIS will be justified, right? Of course that will never happen. Saddam Hussein's cronies are hugely involved in ISIS. And the rush to war in Iraq by the Bush administration will go down as one of the most destructive and downright stupid things that our country has ever done.
113
True. Have we ever seen an accounting of where those trillions of dollars went, who profited from the fake war in Iraq? We need to follow the money - but somehow, we never get that accounting. Why?
5
I think Bush's appointment by the Supreme Court in 2000 was the dumbest thing this country has ever done. How he got elected in 2004 is still a mystery to me.
As Republicans are busy defending that stupid action by Dick Cheney to invade Iraq, bear in mind: Those who do not learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.
Paul Wolfowitz, anyone?
As Republicans are busy defending that stupid action by Dick Cheney to invade Iraq, bear in mind: Those who do not learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.
Paul Wolfowitz, anyone?
10
He got elected by winning Ohio, which he did because Karl Rove -- you've heard of him? -- engineered getting an anti gay marriage question on the state ballot and in those days, a mere 11 years ago, seems like the dark ages, it brought out the crazy fundamentalist vote, who on the way to voting against gay marriage voted for Bush and so he narrowly got reelected.
1
NATO and other nations should put down this ISIS. They care for nothing except the killing and raping. It's time that the whole world to get involved with these people who have no respect for humans. Wake up all of the people of the world.
11
While unfortunate, it's important that the U.S. does not get dragged into this any further. Let the middle east sort out their own garbage.
58
This argument is or isn't specious depending on what role is assigned to the US for geopolitical goings on in the Middle East. As far as being "dragged in further", how did the US get dragged in to begin with; was it as a non-consenting adult? Is/was the US the adult in the room or a bull in a china shop? Is the garbage they must sort out exclusively of their doing or as hegemon did the US throw them into the garbage? Did we break it, can't fix it and now renege on the purchase?
It's not that life isn't fair as some say. Fairness is a choice. So let's choose.
It's not that life isn't fair as some say. Fairness is a choice. So let's choose.
I can find no words. It is not just beauty that has been vanquished, but also truth.
9
I blame us for destabilizing the whole middle east with our unjust war into Iraq, has to be one of the worst examples of hubris ever!!
184
Do yourself and everyone else a favor; read some history. The various factions in the Middle East have been at odds for centuries now and there is no place in this mess for the United States.
It doesn't fit with a lot of the rhetoric in these comments, but Bush did NOT start this 1,400 year old conflict.
It doesn't fit with a lot of the rhetoric in these comments, but Bush did NOT start this 1,400 year old conflict.
3
What even more galling to me is the shameless, continuing arrogance of the neo-con figures who created the de-stabilization in the first place. And now they want more. Their new banner-carrier is a man called "Jeb."
124
Dear Kim,
It's tempting, but the Mideast was never stable. Before our idiotic invasion of Iraq, Iraq went to war on Kuwait, unprovoked. Before that, Iraq went to war with Iran, a couple of times. At various times, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Israel, and other smaller states, all went to war with eachother. There has not been a single peaceful year for the region, as far as I can recall, since history began. So blaming us seems a little misplaced, the true problem is most likely religious fundamentalism and tribal feuds.
It's tempting, but the Mideast was never stable. Before our idiotic invasion of Iraq, Iraq went to war on Kuwait, unprovoked. Before that, Iraq went to war with Iran, a couple of times. At various times, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Israel, and other smaller states, all went to war with eachother. There has not been a single peaceful year for the region, as far as I can recall, since history began. So blaming us seems a little misplaced, the true problem is most likely religious fundamentalism and tribal feuds.
14
I'm disgusted by all of this. We pulled out of Iraq too soon, and some might say that has led to ISIS. Of course, the other side...we should have never gone into Iraq. But this beautiful city is in Syria. And ISIS started in Syria not Iraq.
I'm just so utterly disgusted at the loss of life and loss of antiquities. It's so disheartening. A handful of absolute idiots bringing this much death and destruction...crazy!
I'm just so utterly disgusted at the loss of life and loss of antiquities. It's so disheartening. A handful of absolute idiots bringing this much death and destruction...crazy!
6
Iran & Shiism
isis did not start in syria. isis made its first major victory in seizing rakkah in syria.
but the islamic state was originaly al qaeda in iraq.
when the syrian civil war started al badhdadi sent a money, arms and men in to syria and founded the al nusra front.
after the fall of mosul, al baghdadi anounced that there was no longer any iraq or syria, and demanded that al nusra front return to the fold in the islamic state.
around the same time ayman al zwahiri made a declaration stating that the islamic state should only focus on iraq and leave syria to al nusra.
al baghdadi renounced this since he does not recognize the border between these countries.
the leadership of the islamic state are iraqi baathist, as well as islamist iraqi sunni who got to meet eachother and hang out while they were all in american prisons in iraq.
but the islamic state was originaly al qaeda in iraq.
when the syrian civil war started al badhdadi sent a money, arms and men in to syria and founded the al nusra front.
after the fall of mosul, al baghdadi anounced that there was no longer any iraq or syria, and demanded that al nusra front return to the fold in the islamic state.
around the same time ayman al zwahiri made a declaration stating that the islamic state should only focus on iraq and leave syria to al nusra.
al baghdadi renounced this since he does not recognize the border between these countries.
the leadership of the islamic state are iraqi baathist, as well as islamist iraqi sunni who got to meet eachother and hang out while they were all in american prisons in iraq.
7
Then you need to blame Bush and Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice. The "pull out" followed the schedule that they developed, and seeing as it was the only planning they ever did for the fake war, we are grateful that the trillions of our tax dollars that should have gone to educate us, heal us, and replace our crumbling infrastructure stopped flowing into Iraq. We are grateful NOT to be in the Middle East any more - let them sort themselves out. We only pray that they stop screaming "death to America" to deflect their poor and uneducated populations from seeing the mass failure of their own governments.
1
Assad, and his neighboring leaders, are squarely to blame for the advances made by ISIS and their unwillingness to cooperate in such a way as to present a unified force against ISIS. They have been watching this coming, bickered rather than organized, put up little fight, and can not expect anything but what is transpiring. It is shameful, it is cruel, and it is the world they have chosen to give to their next generation.
43
"Assad, and his neighboring leaders, are squarely to blame for the advances made by ISIS" Really??? So Bush has nothing to do with creating mayhem in the Middle East? So Obama has nothing to do with providing false hopes of an Arab Spring?
That Arab Spring was a real act of genius and foresight. Still, despite his shortcomings, Bush didn't start that either.
Can the rhetoric and place the blame where it belongs.
Can the rhetoric and place the blame where it belongs.
3
the largest number of deaths in the syrian civil war is not civilian deaths, but pro Assad fighters and government soldiers.
so instead of blaming the ones who have sacrificed the most in fighting the islamic state for the rise of the islamic state.
why not blame the countries that have been supporting the rebels
Saudi arabia and the gcc, Turkey. Jordan. israel. and the united states.
so instead of blaming the ones who have sacrificed the most in fighting the islamic state for the rise of the islamic state.
why not blame the countries that have been supporting the rebels
Saudi arabia and the gcc, Turkey. Jordan. israel. and the united states.
5
What an unmitigated disaster! Palmyra is priceless. It is like Ephesus or Carthage.
We should have been supporting Assad for months now as he is the least of all evils. The once moderate opposition has metamorphosed in the "Army of Conquest" - an Islamist coalition including AQ, and supported by Turkey and Saudi Arabia - both Islamist themselves.
We should have been supporting Assad for months now as he is the least of all evils. The once moderate opposition has metamorphosed in the "Army of Conquest" - an Islamist coalition including AQ, and supported by Turkey and Saudi Arabia - both Islamist themselves.
58
"We should have been supporting Assad for months now as he is the least of all evils." That is like suggesting that we should have allied ourselves with Nazi Germany on the rationale that Stalin was worse. The suggestion is so utterly twisted that it's impossible to confront rationally.
This "least of all evils" gasses babies for the sole purpose of clinging to his totally illegitimate hold on dictatorial power.
Where's the moral ambiguity about this?
This "least of all evils" gasses babies for the sole purpose of clinging to his totally illegitimate hold on dictatorial power.
Where's the moral ambiguity about this?
8
Brutality breeds brutality. We can support Assad as he stamps his boot back down on the Sunni majority in Syria. But unless something changes, it will only be a decade or two before another civil war breaks out.
1
Assad did not start this carnage in Syria. We have been supporting the anti-Assad rebels since 2006 with the help of millions.
This is one of the saddest and most depressing news stories I've ever read. The loss of the antiquities of Palmyra would be one of the most devastating blows to the material culture of humankind in recent memory.
135
The sickness attendant to Islamic extremism has been manifest in the destruction of great pre-Koranic antiquities ranging all the way from Libya to Afghanistan. Can you imagine what might happen to the great Jewish legacies of the past found in Israel were the likes of fundamentalist Hamas to ever control that region?
5
Oh cheer up, it's not that bad. The antiquities of Palmyra tell us nothing about how to establish colonies on Mars. They point to no philosophical bent which would result in world peace. They have nothing to say about reducing our birthrate and living in harmony with the planet and eachother. They're just a batch of buildings and artifacts put together by people centuries ago, who were even more violent and ignorant than people are today. Really it's no big loss, and if this bothers you, I hate to tell you but well over 99% of all the structures and artifacts humans built before this century have been destroyed already.
4
Sorry, but I cannot get on-board with your critique here, Dan S. From what I can see, you are comparing apples to oranges, a classic mistake in discourse, for sure. You also appear to be advocating for a cultural relativism. I would point to the fact that these ancient artifacts cannot be replaced in any meaningful way. These antiquities are as much a part of us as we are a part of them. It's about identity, and the human project. It's about the unique in culture and history.
4
The fight is a Sunni (Saudi) v. Shia (Iran) fight and there is nothing the US can do about it but continue to waste our lives and money interfering.
The Saudis are cheered by ISIS victories so long as they are at a cost to Iran, just as Iran is pleased with its proxies' gains in Yemen. Let them fight while we wait for them both to tire.
The Saudis are cheered by ISIS victories so long as they are at a cost to Iran, just as Iran is pleased with its proxies' gains in Yemen. Let them fight while we wait for them both to tire.
45
there is no evidence that the houties are proxies of iran.
4
If the Arab neighbors are ok with this, then why must my heart bleed?
I place blame on those who turn their heads; not the US, but those in the region who look away and hope for someone else to intervene.
I place blame on those who turn their heads; not the US, but those in the region who look away and hope for someone else to intervene.
132
I am curious about some facts. In this, or the loss of Ramadi, what are the estimates of the number of ISIS fighters involved?
Are the defending troops out numbered or just "out scared"?
Are the defending troops out numbered or just "out scared"?
8
Scared and with no cause to fight for except self survival they flee. We think they shud fight for a democracy they never had, won't have, can't have and don't want anyway. They have nothing to fight for and soldiers with nothing to believe in, good or bad, don't fight - they run from the fight.
1
They have no will to fight. They want us to do it.
3
This still doesn't call for American boots on the ground. However, the current US policy of opposing ISIS as well as Assad is weird; while both are despicable, the two are fighting each other, and there is no viable alternative to them. There's got be a better solution -- such as a multinational force agreeing to help Assad weed out ISIS, and in return democracy would be phased in, and the multinational force will remain there until that happens.
4
What is this insistence on democracy about? There is no history of democracy in the Middle East, so why try to impose our system there?
This 'nation building' fetish is a waste of lives, our money, and time that could be better spent rebuilding our own rundown country. Enough already, as they say in NYC!
This 'nation building' fetish is a waste of lives, our money, and time that could be better spent rebuilding our own rundown country. Enough already, as they say in NYC!
5
the iraqi military is not an originization built to fight anyone or defend anything.
it is nothing more than a partonage system currupt from the lowest grunt to the highest general.
there are only about 3 units (10,000) men the iraqi army can deploy with some expectation of them performing like a modern military.
all other gains made by the central government are made possible by the 150,000 - 200,000 shia militia men
it is nothing more than a partonage system currupt from the lowest grunt to the highest general.
there are only about 3 units (10,000) men the iraqi army can deploy with some expectation of them performing like a modern military.
all other gains made by the central government are made possible by the 150,000 - 200,000 shia militia men
1
Lets hear it from all those in Washington who agreed to send our troops into harms way, for what? Nothing! And those responsible? We won't hear from them at all. Wasted taxpayer dollars without accountability.
74
Questions got to be ask why there wasn't round the clock bombing by the coalition forces to save this city.
5
Forget about the city. What about a concerted effort to prevent little children from being murdered, raped, enslaved impressed into military service & taken as brides at the tender age of 9? (Wait, I think the Prophet Muhammad did that. Forget about that one. Don't want to insult the religion of peace.)
I like my antiquities as much as the next guy, but these savages have been doing all of the above since the President allowed them to metastize. And hardly a peep from the commenters on the rare occasions these atrocities are reported in detail. (Abu Gahrib got more coverage.
Throw an old ruin into the mix and every one is outraged. Where are our values? We've broken this thing twice. Once by Mr. Bush and once by Mr. Obama.
Time to face facts folks. Last year ISIS WAS the JV. Now, the varsity. They are starting to look like the NFL All-Stars.
We can take care of a big problem now or a huge problem later. They haven't gotten nukes yet. (We know that because they haven't used them.) But, based on the NYTimes article yesterday, the ISIS balance sheet and cash flow are looking pretty pretty good!
I like my antiquities as much as the next guy, but these savages have been doing all of the above since the President allowed them to metastize. And hardly a peep from the commenters on the rare occasions these atrocities are reported in detail. (Abu Gahrib got more coverage.
Throw an old ruin into the mix and every one is outraged. Where are our values? We've broken this thing twice. Once by Mr. Bush and once by Mr. Obama.
Time to face facts folks. Last year ISIS WAS the JV. Now, the varsity. They are starting to look like the NFL All-Stars.
We can take care of a big problem now or a huge problem later. They haven't gotten nukes yet. (We know that because they haven't used them.) But, based on the NYTimes article yesterday, the ISIS balance sheet and cash flow are looking pretty pretty good!
11
There's no oil there, no Saudi real estate there, no billionaires with bank accounts there.
2
If they destroy these antiquities the loss will be to the whole world and it will be profound. But even financially, these are major potential tourist draws worth huge income in the future, which points to the fact the ISIS has no plans EVER to run the country or they would do all in their power to save these not destroy them. Destruction is all they know, they will never build anything.
170
Oh now that's just silly. Syria isn't going to be a tourist destination again in my lifetime, and actually global warming trends indicate it'll be swept clean of humanity by 2100.
2
If you want too identify 'absolute evil' just watch ISIS: killing, raping, destroying everything in their path.
It is not a Caliphate they are claiming to resurrect but rather to destroy all that millennia of human progress has achieved.
( The irony is that, they are using the very weapons that modern technology has handed to them to perform such acts of nihilism)
It is not a Caliphate they are claiming to resurrect but rather to destroy all that millennia of human progress has achieved.
( The irony is that, they are using the very weapons that modern technology has handed to them to perform such acts of nihilism)
1
"comes even as the United States is scrambling to come up with a response to the loss of Ramadi,"... United States scrambling? Turkey and Saudi Arabia should be scrambling, that's IS future target and yet they continue to blindly support them.
57
This is heartbreaking. I visited Palmyra with friends in 2010 and it was one of the most beautiful places in the world that I'd been to, with some of the warmest and friendliest people.
There's unfortunately no good solution in this conflict - all we can hope for is that soldiers on all sides respect civilians and the antiquities.
There's unfortunately no good solution in this conflict - all we can hope for is that soldiers on all sides respect civilians and the antiquities.
38
It is a type of magical thinking to "hope" for the opposite of what is already occurring.
8
Where have you been? Soldiers on both sides? More like five sides and none of them respect life or property.
2
Why doesn't Central Command have five or six drones circling the city?
6
Because once a bomb hits a 2,000 year old temple, there's no way to put it back together.
10
except if you looked at the map of the city you would have seen there are roads coming into and out of the city that they could have kept an eye on. thanks for playing though
4
I'm sure your both men!
1