I live in Italy now. One of my best friends is a conductor for the railroad. He is shocked that the US doesn't have safety control systems like those in use here in Italy. That type of recent accident is impossible in Italy. All trains have automated control systems that override dangerous situations. All trains. The Italian system is used in many other countries. And it is not nearly as expensive as the costs quoted in the article.
2
The rails through the curve where the derailment occurred are very well maintained with modern specs and tech. Sure, it would be nice if we would invest the billions needed to completely bypass the NEC with a new straighter line. Amtrak has increased rail passenger ridership yearly since its inception. Rail travel in the US is now greater than even in the 50's. Amtrak runs a good operation and has driven their operating deficit to all time lows. Keep in mind HWYS in a way subsidize trucks...Airlines are heavily subsidized. Yet freight railroads pay for their own physical plant with exceptions. However, other countries didn't build there fast trains over night. Even in France the famed TGV still uses conventional tracks at slower speeds...and it too must pass through tight turns and junctions as it leaves terminals and cities.
Also, when speaking of freight railroads, the USA has the best and the class 1's maintain their rails perfectly. The oil train crashes are making headlines but think of the many more trains full of chemicals that if leaked out would make crude oil look like syrup....yet these trains move daily without issue. Chlorine Gas, anhydrous ammonia...all of which moves by rail for the long haul. Europe has a freight system pushed aside for passenger rail...stuck in the early 1900's. Their freight trains are no where near as big and fast as ours. There are lots of facts people overlook in a highly complex industry.
Also, when speaking of freight railroads, the USA has the best and the class 1's maintain their rails perfectly. The oil train crashes are making headlines but think of the many more trains full of chemicals that if leaked out would make crude oil look like syrup....yet these trains move daily without issue. Chlorine Gas, anhydrous ammonia...all of which moves by rail for the long haul. Europe has a freight system pushed aside for passenger rail...stuck in the early 1900's. Their freight trains are no where near as big and fast as ours. There are lots of facts people overlook in a highly complex industry.
Please explain why this needs to be so difficult. An iPhone app should be able to tell if a train is exceeding the speed limit at any point on any rail system in the country.
We need to quit over engineering systems to solve every conceivable worst case scenario, and focus on simple solutions that can be quickly deployed to fix the easy to fix problems, and then implement further enhancements incrementally as funding and technology permits.
We wouldn't be having these problems if we had less lawyers and more engineers and people with technical skills in leadership positions in our society.
We need to quit over engineering systems to solve every conceivable worst case scenario, and focus on simple solutions that can be quickly deployed to fix the easy to fix problems, and then implement further enhancements incrementally as funding and technology permits.
We wouldn't be having these problems if we had less lawyers and more engineers and people with technical skills in leadership positions in our society.
1
What kind of stupidity is this? Isn't that what the engineer is supposed to be there for, to run the train at the correct speed for the conditions? If you put all kinds of automation in, you wouldn't even need an engineer. Sound very similar to trying to put safeguards in a plane to keep the co-pilot from crashing it into a mountain.
2
Let's get it out there shall we?
Americans cannot organize themselves out of a paper bag. The American economy and political system is so ridiculously fragmented, it cannot ever accomplish anything. If it is simple, Americans will make it complicated because it can.
The Europeans, Japanese and the new-comer Chinese have been running advanced systems for years.
Americans cannot organize themselves out of a paper bag. The American economy and political system is so ridiculously fragmented, it cannot ever accomplish anything. If it is simple, Americans will make it complicated because it can.
The Europeans, Japanese and the new-comer Chinese have been running advanced systems for years.
2
The units I am thinking of would detect if the train was pushing too many G's in it's side-motion. If your starting to go around a curve too fast you will see high G's rising in the trains side-motion. If the detector sees rising side-motion G's, it would automatically tell the train's speed controller to slow down until the G's were again in an acceptable range. This would work in any and all conditions with no need for thousands of transmitter units placed on each section of track and subject to high maintenance. This detector unit could also sound an audible and visible alarm so that the train engineer would become immediately aware of curve speed danger. The engineer can slow the train down himself before the train speed controller does it automatically.
I have the knowledge right now to build this type of unit in my garage in a few hours, so let's get an experienced company to build a few hundred bullet proof devices of this nature for may be 10 to 20 grand a train, instead of millions for these expensive transmitter/receiver units I've been hearing about in the news.
These side-motion detector units could be used in every train (beyond Amtrak) on any track without any modification or installation of devices on any section of track.
The device that I am thinking of is an easy device to build today. Any first year electronic major could easily produces one in a matter of hours.
I have the knowledge right now to build this type of unit in my garage in a few hours, so let's get an experienced company to build a few hundred bullet proof devices of this nature for may be 10 to 20 grand a train, instead of millions for these expensive transmitter/receiver units I've been hearing about in the news.
These side-motion detector units could be used in every train (beyond Amtrak) on any track without any modification or installation of devices on any section of track.
The device that I am thinking of is an easy device to build today. Any first year electronic major could easily produces one in a matter of hours.
It's not just about electronics. It's also about mass. Once you're in the curve, it's too late.
2
The problem with this is it would detect the excessive G Force after the train already is past the point of slowing down sufficiently enough to negotiate the curve safely. The technology that currently exists, known as cab signaling, could've prevented this accident by enforcing a Limited Speed of 45mph on the tracks before the curve. But of course no one can answer why this simple readily available solution was not in place on the eastbound tracks but was in place on the westbound tracks.
1
Sorry Greg, but by the time you're in the curve at too high a lateral speed, it's too late to slam on the brakes. However, a GPS based system with knowledge of train maps could do easily do speed control much like many aftermarket GPS for cars that have a database of speed limits. What they're actually implementing (slowly, much too slowly) is much more complicated and expensive because it involves central control of trains rather than just limiting excessive speed.
1
Why aren't there 'train traffic controllers' who are in contact with engineers as each important section of track approaches? And why the heck was this guy going 107mph? Was he a Lionel enthusiast as a kid and wanted to see how fast it could go before wrecking?
1
there are traffic controllers that communicate with the train, that has been in place for many years, the PTC system will be able to take over the engineer in the locomotive should something go wrong... but as the article says it is very complex and expensive, it will take time to implement as the system is in its infancy.....
1
Why should the system be in its infancy? In Japan, China, and Europe they have it down pat. It's a matter of money - if we want to have a working system, we can easily have it but it's like other infrastructure issues, we don't want to spend the necessary money on it. You get what you pay for - or what you refuse to pay for.
2
Yes, there are little empires and pecking orders, foot-dragging and intransigence.
But because human lives have been lost -- are many more are at stake -- some heads need to be cracked together to make this happen. That is the job of Congress -- if we had a responsible Congress that was not on the take.
But because human lives have been lost -- are many more are at stake -- some heads need to be cracked together to make this happen. That is the job of Congress -- if we had a responsible Congress that was not on the take.
4
The article wholly disregards the human factor. Previous NYT articles made the engineer out as a hero: "Isn't it wonderful that he's so much in love with trains?" The message I got, however, is that he's an immature twerp fantasizing that he's still a kid playing with his toy trains at home. It's perfectly clear to me that he just couldn't resist the thrill of racing around that curve at over twice the posted speed. Pennsylvania needs to prosecute him for manslaughter, at the very least, just like we prosecute motor vehicle operators who drive recklessly. This incident is a perfect replay of the NYMTA train's derailment, a few months ago, where, as here, the engineer just couldn't resist racing around a curve.
And what business does this engineer have gossiping with other engineers
about their experience with rock throwing? He ought to be paying attention to his work. A previous NYT article reports that the engineer's cell phone was packed away and not being used But him being distracted by his blabbing over the Amtrak radio is A-OK?
Does AMTRAK maintain and examine any records that would have shown if this operator has done a lot of speeding in the past? For all we know, he's been traversing this curve at +2X maximum speed for years. Many truck and bus lines maintain black-box type speed recording equipment. Why not AMTRAK?
And what business does this engineer have gossiping with other engineers
about their experience with rock throwing? He ought to be paying attention to his work. A previous NYT article reports that the engineer's cell phone was packed away and not being used But him being distracted by his blabbing over the Amtrak radio is A-OK?
Does AMTRAK maintain and examine any records that would have shown if this operator has done a lot of speeding in the past? For all we know, he's been traversing this curve at +2X maximum speed for years. Many truck and bus lines maintain black-box type speed recording equipment. Why not AMTRAK?
2
Ouch! Kinda 'judgy', no?, absent any evidence to back up your somewhat 'youthist' theories!!
What if, at the other extreme of unsupported theories, he was startled by a rock hitting the windshield, hit his head, and briefly blacked-out while applying pressure to the accelerator before coming-to a minute or so later and slamming on the brakes?
What if, at the other extreme of unsupported theories, he was startled by a rock hitting the windshield, hit his head, and briefly blacked-out while applying pressure to the accelerator before coming-to a minute or so later and slamming on the brakes?
4
My GPS knows within 20 yards where my car is and how fast it is moving.
To avoid high speed derailment, nothing more is required than a GPS linked to the trains brake system and some programming.
Positive train control can do much more, but even if it is eventually implemented, a system not dependent on track sensor and RF transmission is a valuable back up.
So why not install it now ?
To avoid high speed derailment, nothing more is required than a GPS linked to the trains brake system and some programming.
Positive train control can do much more, but even if it is eventually implemented, a system not dependent on track sensor and RF transmission is a valuable back up.
So why not install it now ?
3
Pay for the rail infrastructure by charging an appropriate charge to each rail tank car carrying highly volatile low flash point crude oil through the villages, towns and cities of The United States. Last I heard the cost of transporting High Explosives is quite considerable. With all this ongoing as I type this, the money should be flowing to the rail upgrades in no time. After all, right now American citizens along these rail rights of way, are already living with these grave dangers.
2
Its ludicrous that speed control systems need to require specialized radio frequencies, federal and state approvals and expensive equipment, when a GPS-based system could be easily built that could limit train speeds based upon the location and direction of the engine. Ultimately, a basic system would cost less than $100 per train, with all the map information in a computer memory rather than expensive signage. Some simple settings per train would be required to be manually entered, such as the length of the train and braking parameters, but it's certain that train engineers would have to know such information.
But a system such as this would have some limitations, as it does nothing to avoid collisions, so rather than the simple and obvious solution, train systems are building some expensive nightmare that is taking decades to complete. This brings to mind the allegory of the US Space pen vs the pencil.
But a system such as this would have some limitations, as it does nothing to avoid collisions, so rather than the simple and obvious solution, train systems are building some expensive nightmare that is taking decades to complete. This brings to mind the allegory of the US Space pen vs the pencil.
3
As the article suggests, accident rates have been trending down since 2005, no thanks to PTC. Furthermore, no comparable implementations of PTC exist, including our favorite look-to continent, Europe.
All of which make PTC an expensive, untested, half-baked, fantasy-solution, looking for a problem that statistically speaking, doesn’t exist anymore. To make matters worse, if and when PTC matures, it promises more problems than solutions.
How on earth does spending upwards of $10b make any sense? Especially if its main justification is to do the job that a Railroad Engineer is paid to do but neglects? There are roughly 40,000 of these in employ, earning a mean salary of $54,500 (2012, Bureau of Labor Statistics). A 5% raise works out to $109m annual, little over $2b total, spread over 20 years. Peanuts compared to PTC.
Point's this: the human element is critical for safe operation. It is also the least expensive, and it seems, most neglected. Put this discussion back on track, it has derailed enough already. Not just allocate money for raises, but for bridges, track, upgrades, and switches. Everyday operations stuff with guaranteed payback. To top it off, everything's already funded. No stealing from Peter, no paying Paul, no PTC. All aboard?
All of which make PTC an expensive, untested, half-baked, fantasy-solution, looking for a problem that statistically speaking, doesn’t exist anymore. To make matters worse, if and when PTC matures, it promises more problems than solutions.
How on earth does spending upwards of $10b make any sense? Especially if its main justification is to do the job that a Railroad Engineer is paid to do but neglects? There are roughly 40,000 of these in employ, earning a mean salary of $54,500 (2012, Bureau of Labor Statistics). A 5% raise works out to $109m annual, little over $2b total, spread over 20 years. Peanuts compared to PTC.
Point's this: the human element is critical for safe operation. It is also the least expensive, and it seems, most neglected. Put this discussion back on track, it has derailed enough already. Not just allocate money for raises, but for bridges, track, upgrades, and switches. Everyday operations stuff with guaranteed payback. To top it off, everything's already funded. No stealing from Peter, no paying Paul, no PTC. All aboard?
1
Actually European railroads have had train control systems in place since the 1980's.
2
So has the US. The reference was to PTC, lack of which should not be confused with lack of automation/ATC. No comparable PTC implementation using wireless exists in size or scope. Almost all PTC tech is being developed from scratch. Even accident fatalities are not comparable. In 2013 a Spanish train derailed because of reckless overspeeding (yes, on a curve at twice the speed), killing 79.
1
Instead of Americans, Brazil has China build an across-South America railway cutting through the Amazons forest to haul materials and people to two seaports on the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. I found the map in the link below:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/16/amazon-china-railway-plan
China’s Amazonian railway ‘threatens uncontacted tribes’ and the rainforest
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-32747454
China to invest $50bn in Brazil infrastructure
And, I bet you this railway will be built in metric units, which we should have converted to long ago.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/16/amazon-china-railway-plan
China’s Amazonian railway ‘threatens uncontacted tribes’ and the rainforest
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-32747454
China to invest $50bn in Brazil infrastructure
And, I bet you this railway will be built in metric units, which we should have converted to long ago.
1
Looking forward to the gov't mandate for positive automobile control. Given how many die or are injured every year on our streets and roads, I think it is time.
1
What has never been discussed in the aftermath of this MINOR rail accident is the reality of what could have happened. The Crude oil trains carrying 100+ cars that are filled to the brim with Low Flash Point highly volatile crude oil in rail cars NOT designed to contained such highly dangerous contents. We have already seen areas along the rail right of way devastated by crashes of these rolling 100 car bombs. Yet in the aftermath of the far less dangerous crash, not a word is said of this far greater peril Americans face. Why has the topic been avoided ?
Then we need to remind everyone that the major rail companies currently MUST assign 2 workers to each of these freight trains, and the rail company management wants, and is currently battling the unions, to make it only One Employee per 100 car rolling bomb, or freight train. Hmmm, now lets say the engineer alone in his cab, has a sudden case of diarrhea and dashes into the toilet for maybe 10 minutes. No problem here ? I don't think so.
Then we need to remind everyone that the major rail companies currently MUST assign 2 workers to each of these freight trains, and the rail company management wants, and is currently battling the unions, to make it only One Employee per 100 car rolling bomb, or freight train. Hmmm, now lets say the engineer alone in his cab, has a sudden case of diarrhea and dashes into the toilet for maybe 10 minutes. No problem here ? I don't think so.
3
I don't know who to contact about simple solutions that can be implemented now with on devices on tracks.
A simple GPS device knows the train's location within 100 meters. A preprogrammed software control that stores all maximum and recommended speeds at any track in the nation is easy to create and distribute to all rail operators. In addition, one can install an autonomous control system to enforce those speeds automatically.
This is doable today! There is no need for wireless sensors and controls on any tracks!
A simple GPS device knows the train's location within 100 meters. A preprogrammed software control that stores all maximum and recommended speeds at any track in the nation is easy to create and distribute to all rail operators. In addition, one can install an autonomous control system to enforce those speeds automatically.
This is doable today! There is no need for wireless sensors and controls on any tracks!
2
Typo in first sentence. It should say "A simple solution that can be implemented now with NO devices on tracks."
With such a tragic train accident, do you think any foreign countries will want us to build their railway and trains for them? I wouldn't. This is also a tragedy for our country, which gradually grows into a third world country for the majority. If you don't believe me, please visit Europe, China, or Japan this summer and see it for yourself. We have fallen behind in the dust.
3
In many countries the buses and taxis have systems that make annoying beeping sounds if the vehicle is exceeding the speed limit. These cost almost nothing. Its very easy for a GPS device tell if a train on a given route is exceeding the speed limit and easy to to connect that to an escalating alarm that alerts all employees (and eventually even passengers) to pull the emergency brake. This may not be as elegant or perfect as the multi billion dollar "positive train control" but probably does the job in 95% of cases. Sad if it turns out the conductor just drifted off into sleep or daydream when little more than an easily programed Garmin or iPhone app could have brought him back. I think Amtrak does;t want cheap solutions.
If I can't afford a Tesla that can drive itself, does that I mean I "don't want "one?
All this, but we have plenty of money for a 4 trillion plus endless war waged in countries that most Americans will never visit in their lifetimes (unless of course they are among the many who serve in the armed forces).
Who cares if things are falling apart at home as long as we can continue to exert American machismo overseas?
Who cares if things are falling apart at home as long as we can continue to exert American machismo overseas?
10
"Rail safety experts have noted that far less costly upgrades, including an older braking system found on tracks opposite the site of last week’s crash in Philadelphia, would have prevented high-speed derailments like this one."
The tragedy of the wreck of Amtrak 188 is that it would have cost nothing and would have taken a signal maintainer about 20 minutes to speed-restrict eastbound trains at Frankford Curve when the signals were modified to speed-restrict westbound trains there -- and trains in both directions at the Elizabeth S-curve -- thirty years ago.
Cab signals and automatic train stop -- for failure to reduce speed for restrictive signal indications (for a train ahead or a switch in reverse position -- have been in place on this line since the 1930's. It was not deemed needed -- then -- to use ATS for speed restrictions for curves, because locomotive-hauled trains had two people in the cab and the multiple-unit electric trains of the day (with just a "motorman") would not have derailed at either location at top speed.
The tragedy of the wreck of Amtrak 188 is that it would have cost nothing and would have taken a signal maintainer about 20 minutes to speed-restrict eastbound trains at Frankford Curve when the signals were modified to speed-restrict westbound trains there -- and trains in both directions at the Elizabeth S-curve -- thirty years ago.
Cab signals and automatic train stop -- for failure to reduce speed for restrictive signal indications (for a train ahead or a switch in reverse position -- have been in place on this line since the 1930's. It was not deemed needed -- then -- to use ATS for speed restrictions for curves, because locomotive-hauled trains had two people in the cab and the multiple-unit electric trains of the day (with just a "motorman") would not have derailed at either location at top speed.
2
What I never saw addressed in recent news stories was...there was talk a day or two ago that the train had been hit by something prior to the crash...perhaps by a rock ...but even so, how could this explain the fact that the train was going twice as fast as it should have been in that stretch of track? It almost sounded to me like Amtrak was trying to look for an excuse, but I don't see how the train getting hit by something (which wasn't enough to affect the actual performance of the train) would then cause it to go faster...unless the idea was that the sound of the hit caused the conductor to become temporarily distracted?...but even then it would seem to me that a good conductor, upon realizing the train was not hugely impacted by the hit, would still realize his most important area of attention should have been the speed of the train as it was heading into this section of track...
2
According to newspaper reports Amtrak has admitted it has been working on speed control for this section of the track since 1990. They say they have had many problems installing the speed controls. I am amazed why thy cannot get the controls installed
Our infrastructure is a disgrace and I am ashamed of how our country looks compared to Europe, China and Japan. Come on Americans let's rebuild America to the greatest that our grandparents worked hard for please.
11
As long as you have 32 year old Engineers, with limited experience, running these trains twice the speed limit we are barking up the wrong tree. Remember that German pilot crashing his plane on purpose and killing some 150 passengers! Where there is a will to destroy etc., etc.
2
A hurdle is something you can't get over because you're unable physically, not something that's in your way that your just not willing to try and get over, and not for lack of means rather for lack of caring to. They can investigate this crash till the cows come home and chase every wild lead that they feel will distract from the obvious real cause . . . and that's the unwillingness to pay for what one expects to get. That doesn't magically just happen by wishing it so or passing a law saying it should be so, someone has to actually pay for it and do the work. And if some can't bear to put themselves out enough in order to do that, then when it's time to assign blame that place is obvious.
1
Major obstacle is Congressional funding. There is all the money in the world for airports and to support for-profit airlines (remember the $15 BILLION bailout after 9/11? source: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/9-11-airline-bailout-so-who-got-what/).
Since 1971, the year of Amtrak's inception, the airlines through direct and indirect subsidies (security-OHS, FAA, CAB, etc) has received $1.89 TRILLION tax dollars versus $40 billion for Amtrak.
Somehow, Amtrak is supposed to come up with state-of-the art trains, security, safety, and service on a shoestring budget. How does that work? And service in the East and the NEC in particular is far superior to anything California or the Midwest enjoys.
For Speaker Boehner to ignore the question linking Amtrak funding and safety tells us how ignorant he and his fellow anti-public transit colleagues are about the connections between money and safety. This is an issue for both parties to resolve by fully funding Amtrak and its long-term capital improvements-including safety.
Since 1971, the year of Amtrak's inception, the airlines through direct and indirect subsidies (security-OHS, FAA, CAB, etc) has received $1.89 TRILLION tax dollars versus $40 billion for Amtrak.
Somehow, Amtrak is supposed to come up with state-of-the art trains, security, safety, and service on a shoestring budget. How does that work? And service in the East and the NEC in particular is far superior to anything California or the Midwest enjoys.
For Speaker Boehner to ignore the question linking Amtrak funding and safety tells us how ignorant he and his fellow anti-public transit colleagues are about the connections between money and safety. This is an issue for both parties to resolve by fully funding Amtrak and its long-term capital improvements-including safety.
15
And think of all of the money (taxpayer money, money from the paychecks of all Americans) being funneled into security, defense, and warfare, much of this not going to the federal government but to private firms that have ballooned since 9/11, making a profit on all of this technology, much of it technology that kills or keeps the rest of the world in a state of fear (think of drones). So, while Americans die on American trains, security and defense firms profit by killing foreigners--aka "collateral damage" abroad. That's how I understand the current lay of the land.
2
So Congress instructs the railroads to install safety features, while at the same time slashing their budget. Enough with the subsidies, let the market decide. This is what happens when you let the market decide. Safety is a luxury. Profit is all that's important. What's few lives as long as the bottom line looks good.
3
Both federal and state governments fund roads and highway maintenance and improvements used by cars and trucks and airport improvement used by commercial and private flyers. Should not federal and state governments help fund commercial trains infrastructure needs? Especially when use of trains lessens cars and trucks use on busy streets in cities
4
Conservative friends of mine say that (one reason) PTC isn't in place is that the FCC hasn't allocated radio bandwidth the system requires. None of the stories I've been reading say anything about this; I don't know if it's true or not. But it's clear we'll never have world-class passenger service without a major upgrad of trackbeds. History tells us the long-haul rights of way were acquired by eminent-domain takings by the USG and fire-sale prices to tycoons like Cornelius Vanderbilt, Leland Stanford, and the Harrimans. It may be time to take those railbeds by eminent domain proceedings, if that's what is necessaray to get modern trackage.
3
How many people rode how many miles on AMTRAK last year? How many died?
3
Just another instance of profits being regarded as sacrosanct, and safety being little more than an afterthought. Of course, this country is wealthy enough to make safety paramount, but much of the wealth is sitting in the Cayman Islands and other tax shelters - proof that allowing the wealthy to hold inordinate political power is ruining our country, along with the integrity deficit among our politicians.
And this includes both parties, as Dianne Feinstein's ridiculous claim that a five year extension is "reckless" while her proposal for a three year extension is not.
There is a good argument to be made that democracy and capitalism cannot coexist, and this sad affair buttresses that argument.
And this includes both parties, as Dianne Feinstein's ridiculous claim that a five year extension is "reckless" while her proposal for a three year extension is not.
There is a good argument to be made that democracy and capitalism cannot coexist, and this sad affair buttresses that argument.
2
For decades, the NYC subway has used a pretty simple and relatively cheap signal timer system to slow down trains, or stop them completely if they fail to slow down. Commuters likely know of spots on their routes where they think, "Why do we always go so slow here?" It's timed signals slowing the train down.
NYC subways rarely reach 50 mph, but I will use 50 for my example because that's the speed we'd like the Amtrak to go when it reaches the curve in Philadelphia.
50 mph breaks down to 1,467 feet every 20 seconds. At the entrance to the curve would be a red signal with the usual mechanism to put apply the trains emergency brakes if the signal is passed while red. When the existing rail circuitry detects a train approaching 1,467 feet away, the 20 second timer starts. If the train gets to the red signal in less than 20 seconds it is going too fast and will be stopped by the emergency mechanism. If the 20 seconds passes, then the train is moving at a safe speed and the signal/mechanism clears, allowing the train to proceed.
Old time subway buffs tell me that years ago you could hear the ticking of the timer if it was far enough away from train noise - it was the same technology used in old fashioned kitchen timers. I think they've gone digital now though.
Anyway, with all this talk about fledgling, multi-billion dollar complicated tech, I haven't seen this "kitchen-timer" system mentioned and have been looking for a reason why it wouldn't work on other railroads.
NYC subways rarely reach 50 mph, but I will use 50 for my example because that's the speed we'd like the Amtrak to go when it reaches the curve in Philadelphia.
50 mph breaks down to 1,467 feet every 20 seconds. At the entrance to the curve would be a red signal with the usual mechanism to put apply the trains emergency brakes if the signal is passed while red. When the existing rail circuitry detects a train approaching 1,467 feet away, the 20 second timer starts. If the train gets to the red signal in less than 20 seconds it is going too fast and will be stopped by the emergency mechanism. If the 20 seconds passes, then the train is moving at a safe speed and the signal/mechanism clears, allowing the train to proceed.
Old time subway buffs tell me that years ago you could hear the ticking of the timer if it was far enough away from train noise - it was the same technology used in old fashioned kitchen timers. I think they've gone digital now though.
Anyway, with all this talk about fledgling, multi-billion dollar complicated tech, I haven't seen this "kitchen-timer" system mentioned and have been looking for a reason why it wouldn't work on other railroads.
1
Why isn't rail transport enjoying more patronage outside of a select few commuters in cities like New York and Chicago and business customers in the North-East? Improve ridership and let those costs help pay for some of the improvements. Let's give cars and trains the same financial benefits. It also pains me to see that we judge our politicians on basis of their war mongering, but on their plans for public works projects.
4
The last sentence should read, "It also pains me to see that we judge our politicians on basis of their war mongering, but NOT on their plans for public works projects.
1
Because we are too busy spending $2B per nuclear sub to fight a war we never hope to fight. Because we are spending $250M apiece for each F-35. Because we are still spending more than $125M a year in Iraq.
And, that's just the top of the iceberg. We have PE managers and hedge fund managers making $400M to $1.5B A YEAR. Gee, I wonder if we could have found a better use for those fees besides Ackman buying a $90M condo in Manhattan.
The amount of waste juxtaposed next to obvious need makes the U.S. look like some sort of banana republic.
And, that's just the top of the iceberg. We have PE managers and hedge fund managers making $400M to $1.5B A YEAR. Gee, I wonder if we could have found a better use for those fees besides Ackman buying a $90M condo in Manhattan.
The amount of waste juxtaposed next to obvious need makes the U.S. look like some sort of banana republic.
More congressional mandates without funding. Poor reporting job that there's no mention of it. Congress telling agencies what to do without paying for it.
Thanks, Congress.
Thanks, Congress.
3
US infrastructures are going down.
US is going down with it.
US is going down with it.
4
With 90% of the people having no confidence in the US Congress, that fact of the matter is that congress is irrelevant. The yahoo that run the legislative body are self interest, self righteous, corrupt to the hilt, who care not for the nation or the people. They are considered lesser then roaches. It is just Amtrak that has serious problem, this ideologically divided, polarized nations that is on a fast track of self destruction from within has far worst problems with the rest of the infrastructure.
3
I am not a railroad expert, but I am experienced in aerospace engineering.
It seems that it should not be difficult to implement automatic speed control on each locomotive, without interfacing with the track or dispatch systems. I believe each locomotive already has GPS, so it knows where it is and how fast it is going. If the on-board mapping system includes speed limit data for each section of track, then the locomotive should be able to apply the brakes automatically if it exceeds the speed limit.
This approach should be very fast and cheap to implement. It may not have all the bells and whistles (pardon the pun) of the full system, but it surely would have avoided the Philly crash.
It seems that it should not be difficult to implement automatic speed control on each locomotive, without interfacing with the track or dispatch systems. I believe each locomotive already has GPS, so it knows where it is and how fast it is going. If the on-board mapping system includes speed limit data for each section of track, then the locomotive should be able to apply the brakes automatically if it exceeds the speed limit.
This approach should be very fast and cheap to implement. It may not have all the bells and whistles (pardon the pun) of the full system, but it surely would have avoided the Philly crash.
12
Or even just a GPS activated alarm to alert the conductor and then all the employees to manually pull the emergency brakes. Costs almost nothing and might actually have a better success rate than an entirely automatic system.
Amtrak has the funds but chooses not to use them for safety. They run trains no one rides around the US and lose millions selling food no one can eat.
1
Hey, you forgot to say "boondoggle"! They don't make railfans like they useta.
That's funny. The trains I ride out west are not empty. Sometimes they are so crowded we can't sit together.
2
A national disgrace. It is clear that as far as our politicians are concerned--and both parties must take responsibility--passenger rail service in this country can fall to the fate of trolley service and just disappear. Far from upgrading our rail systems to match those of other developed nations, we have disinvested in the railroads to the point that we refuse even to take the necessary safety measures to protect current users. Anti-public service, anti-government, anti-regulation, the Republican Party is greasing the skids to our becoming a third-class nation. Trillions for the military and its hundreds of bases all over the globe, but what is our military protecting? An empire in serious decline while the one percent reesort to their limousines and private jets.
22
A quick but enlightening analysis of why Republicans tend to oppose infrastructure investment can be found at http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/05/15/1383149/-Why-do-Republicans-rea...
It certainly opened my eyes.
It certainly opened my eyes.
1
The military is protecting its own economic complex, they control so much money and jobs that any reduction in their budget/expenses has great economic impact in the cities and States where manufacturing plants exist.
So unless we find somthing else for these for these companies to manufacture nothing will change..(Boeing, Hughes, Lockheed, etc..)
So unless we find somthing else for these for these companies to manufacture nothing will change..(Boeing, Hughes, Lockheed, etc..)
Proper Fixes: First, hire a second conductor for every train and do this in the next 30 days. They do not have to be controlling the train as the existing conductors can continue but they can watch for every sign highlighting such things as speed limits. Next, prepare for the full automation of the existing systems. If Goggle can get a car to run via automation in heavy traffic the train industry could do the same for far lower costs. Finally, in about 50 or 60 years have the US rail industry at least match the European and Asian industry of today.
2
The additional staff would cost money and Congress would rather "save" money every day and have a $200 million payout every 20 years.
1
"Comparatively sleepy"? That's a cheap shot, isn't it?
Michigan trains operate at peak speeds of 110 mph on the stretch of track that has positive train control.
http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-271644--,00.html
Michigan trains operate at peak speeds of 110 mph on the stretch of track that has positive train control.
http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9620_11057-271644--,00.html
Is it unreasonable to expect those who use this rail facility to pay for it? All of this talk about insufficient funding seems to me to be beside the point. If I want a certain kind a service, I should have to pay for it, and not expect the rest of the country to subsidize it.
3
I would love to use rail service in lieu of our dysfunctional airline service. It is not available. The Interstate Highway System was created by the Federal Government (partially justified to enhance military preparedness) in the 1950s in the Eisenhower Administration. It continues to be maintained and funded through government administered programs even though funding is becoming a problem. The Air transportation network in this country is regulated by the FAA with their systems and much of the airport infrastructure funded by government tax programs. Yet the latest philosophy we hear from the right is a passenger rail system should be self-funded. That is pure nonsense. It will take a comprehensive Federal program to develop the modern coast to coast passenger rail system we deserve and need. Our Congress is letting us down. I will pay my fair share but cannot pay for something that is not available!
8
Given that drivers only pay less than half of the costs of maintaining roads, I assume you'd be okay paying a lot more to drive?
http://www.uspirg.org/reports/usp/who-pays-roads
http://www.uspirg.org/reports/usp/who-pays-roads
2
There's an Amtrak station in Ashland, about 65 miles up U.S. 23 from Thelma, and another in Huntington, WV, where the closest regional airport is.
1
The "obstacles"/"hurdles" don't start 'til the 20th paragraph or so, and then I can only find 2-3. This article would be much more useful if it straightforwardly reported to the public what can be changed to make things better.
2
For that level of honesty in reporting, you need to go elsewhere:
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/15/wall-street-analyst-demand...
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/15/wall-street-analyst-demand...
Those arguing the US should have high speed trains like those found in other countries ignore a couple of things.
The US Northeast corridor could work, its not that far from Boston to DC, but straightening out rights of way to allow higher speeds would lead to 50 years of litigation over environmental, eminent domain and other matters - which the Euros largely don't have to deal with. I'd like faster NE corridor trains, but don't hold your breath.
They also ignore the size of the US compared to self contained, much smaller, EU countries. Does anybody really think a business traveler would take a train from NYC to Chicago? No matter how fast it might be? LA? Pretty funny, huh?
So improve safety, for sure, especially for local commuter nets, but don't expect massive shifts of business travel to trains from roads and air.
The US Northeast corridor could work, its not that far from Boston to DC, but straightening out rights of way to allow higher speeds would lead to 50 years of litigation over environmental, eminent domain and other matters - which the Euros largely don't have to deal with. I'd like faster NE corridor trains, but don't hold your breath.
They also ignore the size of the US compared to self contained, much smaller, EU countries. Does anybody really think a business traveler would take a train from NYC to Chicago? No matter how fast it might be? LA? Pretty funny, huh?
So improve safety, for sure, especially for local commuter nets, but don't expect massive shifts of business travel to trains from roads and air.
7
"They also ignore the size of the US compared to self contained, much smaller, EU countries. Does anybody really think a business traveler would take a train from NYC to Chicago?"
While you have a point about the size of the USA, what about Japan and China? (Not to mention longer distance Euro trains)
A current bullet train (topping our at about 200 mph) from Japan could make the 780 mile ride from NY to Chicago in about 3 hours! The new Maglev train under testing, topped out at 375 MPH in tests, which would reduce the time to 2 hrs. (And that's CITY CENTER-to-CITY CENTER, not 20 miles out of town).
Clearly, technology exists to drastically change train travel in the US, especially from the highly-traveled corridor from Boston to NY to Phila to DC and along the corridor from LA to SF, all totally congested with car/bus traffic and all subject with long delays and inconveniences for air travel.
It's a matter of national will and national priorities and the will to make plans, not just dismiss them as impossible! If US citizens allow for Third World Conditions and Republican slashing of resources, we'll keep going backward. Shameful!
If the president declared a race to a high-speed travel network as a way to honor the victims of the Amtrak crash, it would be a start.
I'd like to see the Repubs try to stand in the way of that...and take the political consequences!
While you have a point about the size of the USA, what about Japan and China? (Not to mention longer distance Euro trains)
A current bullet train (topping our at about 200 mph) from Japan could make the 780 mile ride from NY to Chicago in about 3 hours! The new Maglev train under testing, topped out at 375 MPH in tests, which would reduce the time to 2 hrs. (And that's CITY CENTER-to-CITY CENTER, not 20 miles out of town).
Clearly, technology exists to drastically change train travel in the US, especially from the highly-traveled corridor from Boston to NY to Phila to DC and along the corridor from LA to SF, all totally congested with car/bus traffic and all subject with long delays and inconveniences for air travel.
It's a matter of national will and national priorities and the will to make plans, not just dismiss them as impossible! If US citizens allow for Third World Conditions and Republican slashing of resources, we'll keep going backward. Shameful!
If the president declared a race to a high-speed travel network as a way to honor the victims of the Amtrak crash, it would be a start.
I'd like to see the Repubs try to stand in the way of that...and take the political consequences!
2
China is larger than the Continental U.S.
1
SEPTA has some funding because the state of Pennsylvania passed a bill (Act 89) that funds infrastructure. The federal government needs to copy this bill and pass it at the federal level. How many people have to die before we save our roads, bridges and public transit systems? Nobody can earn their living on their own without a way to get goods and services safely to market.
10
Interesting that the blame implies we don't fund the rails.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/amtrak-truth-and-politics-1431646437?KEYWORD...
Given the incredible funding and subsidies already in place, a more wise debate should be about focusing the rail system on routes that make sense - and investing there. At the same time, stopping wasteful lines that consume resources that are best allocated elsewhere. As the usage grows, then allocate accordingly.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/amtrak-truth-and-politics-1431646437?KEYWORD...
Given the incredible funding and subsidies already in place, a more wise debate should be about focusing the rail system on routes that make sense - and investing there. At the same time, stopping wasteful lines that consume resources that are best allocated elsewhere. As the usage grows, then allocate accordingly.
3
When members of Congress -- very commendably, I might add -- mandate the implementation of a complex and expensive safety system like PTC, it's surely incumbent upon them to help the railroads with both the funding and the logistics. Including when necessary, the cutting of bureaucratic red tape (especially the FCC's, it turns out!), and the equivalent of 'eminent domain' when it comes to providing them with the frequencies and radio towers they needed.
And had they had the courage and wit to include those provisions in the 2008 bill, I'm betting that all the railroads would have been able to meet the deadline, and many lives would have been saved and injuries avoided, both on the trains and on the tracks. To say nothing of all the money that would have been saved on clean-up costs that could have gone to all the urgent infrastructure upgrades that have had to be put on the back burner.
And this was our 'do-nothing Congress' actually doing something for once and being laudably pro-active -- just not proactive enough, alas.
And had they had the courage and wit to include those provisions in the 2008 bill, I'm betting that all the railroads would have been able to meet the deadline, and many lives would have been saved and injuries avoided, both on the trains and on the tracks. To say nothing of all the money that would have been saved on clean-up costs that could have gone to all the urgent infrastructure upgrades that have had to be put on the back burner.
And this was our 'do-nothing Congress' actually doing something for once and being laudably pro-active -- just not proactive enough, alas.
15
Well, it's all about priorities. The US taxpayer through the US Navy, awarded Electric Boat a contract valued at $17.6 billion for the construction and delivery of the next block, Block IV, of Virginia Class submarines. (Providence Journal, 28 APR 2014). I would argue that we could redirect EB and its 8000+ employees to retool, and contribute to a mass transit system that might rival those of our European allies.
27
The national train mess is analogous to the national healthcare mess, the national education mess, and the national lack of gun safety mess, the climate change mess, etc. The forms of systematic competence that other countries put into place as a matter of course elude us. Our brilliant representatives, especially on the Right, are forever telling us that it is impossible for us to have what other countries have (even though most of those other countries are, at least technically, less wealthy).
But you know what we have that they don't: massive tax cuts and giveaways to the richest of our people and corporations, and a huge military.
So the next time a train crashes, a bridge falls, or you spend two hours at work on hold to your insurance company over their refusal to cover a procedure they're supposed to pay for - console yourself with the comforting thought that David Koch just pulled in another $3 billion and our military spans the globe.
But you know what we have that they don't: massive tax cuts and giveaways to the richest of our people and corporations, and a huge military.
So the next time a train crashes, a bridge falls, or you spend two hours at work on hold to your insurance company over their refusal to cover a procedure they're supposed to pay for - console yourself with the comforting thought that David Koch just pulled in another $3 billion and our military spans the globe.
38
Europe, as well as many of our other "Allies", enjoy and advantage that those on the left in America conveniently forget: the massive military defensive umbrella shielding them for the last 70 years at no charge .
We need to stopping the world's policeman and, as an earlier poster noted, to redirect the huge military expenses to rebuilding the infrastructure of this country.
We need to stopping the world's policeman and, as an earlier poster noted, to redirect the huge military expenses to rebuilding the infrastructure of this country.
Tax the rich.
18
We are at the advent of driver-less cars on our roadways, but we can't fix the rail system? There seems to be a serious disconnect someplace.
11
The rich will have driverless cars. The rest will die at current rates.
it is my belief that the engineer of train 188 deliberately derailed the train in order to make a national issue out of rail safety. He was known as a vocal online critic of the government and railroads who frequently expressed frustration that the safety measures demanded by Congress were not being implemented quickly enough. There is no explanation for why he sped up the train to over 100 mph except that it was intentional. Is anybody looking into his past in terms of mental illness or psychiatric treatment? My guess is that like the Germanwings pilot, we will discover that the engineer had mental problems for a long time.
My belief.
My guess.
My goodness.
My guess.
My goodness.
We as society moved far too away from ideals we once held dear - Honesty, Dedication, Freedom for everyone. Instead of addressing the challenge of speed (and other attributes) control from within trains, the greed blew that up to a multi billion dollars project to install "speed controls" on tracks. Every little thing we have to address is always blown up to a multi billion dollar projects with pork funding.
Look at the security theater. We spent TRILLIONS in last 10 years and the threat is no less.
Our greed will be our own demise.
Look at the security theater. We spent TRILLIONS in last 10 years and the threat is no less.
Our greed will be our own demise.
2
The evidence that this train 'increased' in speed to 106 mph, approaching a curve and that the engineer was alert enough to apply the brakes (which worked), leaves a troublesome issue. If the train controls were functional and there was some deliberate action causing this event, the additional safety features would be a dubious improvement. Amtrak was already improving safety, so how did this become political?
1
It seems to me that instead of waiting 5 years for a perfect, automatic system, they could make a gps-driven device that knows where the train is, how fast it is going, and the speed limit, and sounds an alarm if the train is going too fast, and the engineer could respond. It could easily be programmed to figure out how far in advance of a curve to sound the alarm. Every engineer would simply have one and turn it on. This would be a matter of months, not years.
5
The Republican mantra of "job killing taxes" and "job killing regulations" is wearing thin. I'll take higher taxes and better regulations over people killing budget cuts any day.
30
If Congress is unwilling to properly fund the FDA, CDC, NIH, highway gas tax, early education, basic research, and etc.; why would anyone imagine they would fund railroad safety? Yet another example of American exceptionalism. Vote Republican and you too can enjoy all the amenities of the third world.
45
4 passengers have filed suits. 8 people are dead. When is this republican led congress going to accept the reality that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? That the clean-up from their austerity measures are far more costly (see: climate change) than simply dealing with a problem upon its outset? Like the Iraq war, poorly planned, went to pieces depriving millions of water, electricity and police protection while we here in the United States watch the seams split from a lack of any action recommended by the president to strengthen our infrastructure, or anything else he has brought up. I'd like a liberal amount of attention payed to the citizen's needs, not to the fat cats who now own us like sharecroppers.
45
Why didnt the Democrats fund infrastructure when they had total domination of the government for 2 years from 2008-2010? What happened to those shovel ready projects? Stop your silly nonsense. And dont get me started on that weakling Obama s epic failure in Iraq. Oh...one more reminder. Your hero Hillary voted for Iraq. Yeah, the one with all the fake emails and scandals and secret mega million dollar deals for herself.
When? That's easy: When all the fun goes out of bashing Amtrak and calling boondoggle. Priorities, people.
2
I'll answer your question about shovel ready projects, Jerry, in the spirit in which you responded to my post: Bush Tax Cuts.
4
How is it that the trains in other parts of the world surpass the American system? We must reexamine our priorities if indeed we are still an extremely wealthy country.
37
Jennifer, in America the wealth goes to the oligarchs for their sole benefit.
11
Trains in Europe and Japan operate on a rail system built after World War Two. In America some infrastructure, like tunnels, date back to the 19th century. You cannot compare America's rail system to those of other countries.
1