I appreciated the NYT article about the engineer. Let's not jump to castigate him. Whatever happened, it seems highly unlikely it was intentional. The evidence suggests that Brandon Bostian is a thoughtful young man with a lifelong love for trains who now finds himself responsible for exactly the type of accident he warned against. My heart goes out to him. It's possible to recognize responsibility and also have some compassion.
3
In this age of technology I would think a very simple answer to the problem of a public service vehicle exceeding a prescribed speed limit(such as a train) would be a simple GPS device attached to the controls, which using latitude and longitude, dictate the maximum speed at any given location.
The current rail system in the northeast corridor appears to require a costly and time consuming installation of infrastructure to govern the speed of trains and the resulting complexity will require maintenance also. Go figure.....
The current rail system in the northeast corridor appears to require a costly and time consuming installation of infrastructure to govern the speed of trains and the resulting complexity will require maintenance also. Go figure.....
Temple University Medical Center has been advertising the expertise of their lung doctors. This is a chance for Temple U Med. Center to live up to it's advertising. The only positive is that death toll is only 8 and the surviving passengers were close enough to several area hospitals to get medical care in time. As tragic as the loss of the 8 passengers and all the injuries are, it appears that Philadelphia's first responders and medical personnel have been doing their jobs well in the past 2 days.
1
Has no one asked why is there such a sharp curve in the middle of a high speed rail line? It appears that the curvature could have been mitigated without much disruption to the adjacent property
So the engineer has "no relocation" of the crash. Does he think that this advise from his lawyers will let him off the hook? Hello Amtrak: can you say "law suits"?
1
So why, with the earlier story of the engineer and his passion for trains, was there no place for comments as there is for this post? It seems like that, as his attorney advised, he has "no memory" of the crash. Will this be his position as we reach litigation? Are the family members of the victims already, at this early phase of the situation, locked out of closure?
I'm not a fan of wreckage and death and pain and certainly don't wish to dismiss the horror of what happened to those passengers, but the purpose of this comment is to offer my compliments to the writers/reporters of this piece. Excellent work, y'all.
1
I would think that the authorities in charge and especially the elected officials, would refrain form blaming the engineer, until all the facts are know.
To my knowledge the results from the black box, have not yet been disclosed.
To my knowledge the results from the black box, have not yet been disclosed.
2
A few thoughts come to mind on this horrible accident. The psychological impact on those in train when it crashed (and survived) cannot be calculated. They will "shoulder it" the rest of their lives. For the families of loved ones killed (children, spouses, brothers, sister, parents) the pain will be with them for the rest of their lives, particularly for the small children who will never see mom or dad again.
Will the engineer be found guilty of reckless disregard for safe operating procedures? May he will, maybe not. Perhaps it will be concluded that the cause was mechanical or something outside the control of the engineer. I don't know.
Regardless of the outcome, I suspect the NTSB investigation will be thorough and complete. I hope it offers suggestions for better train safety in the future.
I
Will the engineer be found guilty of reckless disregard for safe operating procedures? May he will, maybe not. Perhaps it will be concluded that the cause was mechanical or something outside the control of the engineer. I don't know.
Regardless of the outcome, I suspect the NTSB investigation will be thorough and complete. I hope it offers suggestions for better train safety in the future.
I
2
How sad that we consider 107 mph speeding in this country when other countries would consider that the slow train.
2
The turn was rated at 53 max.
The Engineer is at fault, Amtrak very likely does not own that track so do not blame them, if the speed limit on this curve is 50 MPH and he was going 102 MPH there is nothing to talk about or no one else to blame, let's put the blame where it belongs, human error!
3
The #1 definition of being liberal is to never blame the person responsible. So don't hold your breath.
1
Time will tell as the investigation unfolds, but this sure doesn't sound like a budget or lack-of-technology issue. Based on Amtrak's current scheduling, my rough calculation is that ~30,000 Amtrak trains travel through that curve every 12 months (40-50 trains going each way per day). Assuming this week's deadly crash is the only one in the past year, then that's a success (non-crash) rate of 99.997% and a failure (crash) rate of 0.003%. If it was the lack of budget or on-the-curve technology (which I would think apply to all trains more or less equally) then there surely would have been a LOT more accidents at that location. Time will tell of course, but if I were a betting I'd double down on operator error.
2
A few decades or 100 years from now, historians will ask the question:
Why did Americans elect politicians who destroyed America's government and future by underfunding public works like infrastructure in favor of funding non-winnable wars for oil? Why did America waste its resources when there was a clear choice?
Why did Americans elect politicians who destroyed America's government and future by underfunding public works like infrastructure in favor of funding non-winnable wars for oil? Why did America waste its resources when there was a clear choice?
8
Suzanne, you are so right. What is wrong with politicians, that they will not fund our infrastructure? How many more lives need to be lost?
2
A trillion (or more) spent to kill people around the world.
Ask your "representative" why they refuse to spend 1/1000 of that to save lives here.
Ask your "representative" why they refuse to spend 1/1000 of that to save lives here.
3
Did no one notice that the train was speeding? 100 miles an hour in a train car is MOVING! Surely some one said something prior to de railment?
1
It's deeply saddening that such an event has occurred. Thankfully the amount of deaths are low but it's heartbreaking that passengers lost their lives and that so many people were injured. There are many speculations as to why the train derailed but none are confirmed. Did the engineer really not know how fast the train was going? Did they alarms that should have warned the driver not work? Hopefully the police and investigators will soon find out a cause of this horrific crash.
2
Although I'm as interested as others in improving our failing infrastructure and understanding how this crash happenned, I'm more curious about the larger question: how do 230 people survive a 100+mph crash, and over 20 of them walk away without hospitalization. This seems to defy common sense when these folks were not wearing seatbelts, so they were likely thown around in train cars at 102 mph. Am I missing something? Will reporters dig into this and share the technical analysis that explains how it is possible?
Good Point, possibly the black boxes are wrong and the train was going slower. Not only human error, but also technology can fell. Have to consider also that technology can be tampered with by groups intending harm.
Well, you can see by these comments that we don't need to spend money on infrastructure or safety features that might have prevented this accident. It was a human error -- and we have to live with human errors. Preventing human error is too expensive.
2
As I read through some of the comments yesterday and noticed many blamed the Republicans for the catastrophe It amazed me how just so lame some people are. Blame some abstract identity that has absolutely nothing to do with the crash. Number one, leave everything out......the train was going over one hundred miles per hour, run by a driver that was clearly not paying attention to his job. That was the problem. Address that, because that is where it starts. I didn't even think Amtrak even ran trains that fast even if they could. Leave out all the safeguards, the driver can override, safeguards and that's exactly what it appears he did. In any case "common sense" did not prevail and innocent people died because of it. Period.
2
TWO people in every passenger train cab, beginning today!
Easy to blame the engineer because yes, he was speeding. Harder to look at WHY he was speeding - because when trains are late, people get mad and the trains are late slow because the infrastructure is not built for speed. No matter how many patches are made, no matter how slow the engineer goes, American trains are too old to go fast, and underfunded to stay that way. Demand for train travel in the Northeast is high - we should be building high-speed rail now. But Republicans block any and all improvements. So yes, it was the engineer in this instance. But overall, yes Republicans are to blame for a train system that is far substandard for the demands placed on it. History will judge Republican denial for what it is - deliberate destruction of a great country's progress and future.
No excuse for NOT having working speed governors of some sort on ALL trains in place NOW! Make the"officials" PERSONALLYFINANCIALLY LIABLE" for this type of travesty/tragedy and they may just forget the bribes they get to ignore safety.....
1
As tragic as this moment is, it is a microcosm of the decades of underfunding of Amtrak since its inception in 1971. This is not to absolve the engineer of potential guilt and complicity. Yet, that the NEC of the US still has a 50 mph curve dating from the PRR's construction of the line during the Civil War is a commentary on the sad state of passenger rail in the United States. Freight railroads have been investing tens of billions of dollars for decades as the economy of scale for railroads make trucking less profitable and attractive and the savings of rail obvious--either LCL or COFC/TOFC.
However, rail--Amtrak in particular--has been pathetically under funded with the ongoing expectations that it should show a profit despite its being a utility. The same expectation is not held for the private airlines who have received $1.89 Trillion dollars in direct and indirect subsidies since 1971 (including the Federal Government's portion of the FAA) compared to $40 billion for Amtrak over the last 44 years. In fact the airlines received billions of free money immediately after 9/11 to keep them afloat rather than watching them disappear like Sabena, Swiss Air, etc.
Japan's JNR and France's SNCF receive typical funding in upgrades for a single line greater than all of the money given to Amtrak, not just the NEC. It is almost surprising that Amtrak has performed as well as it has over the last four decades given its disownership by both parties. Trains are crucial!
However, rail--Amtrak in particular--has been pathetically under funded with the ongoing expectations that it should show a profit despite its being a utility. The same expectation is not held for the private airlines who have received $1.89 Trillion dollars in direct and indirect subsidies since 1971 (including the Federal Government's portion of the FAA) compared to $40 billion for Amtrak over the last 44 years. In fact the airlines received billions of free money immediately after 9/11 to keep them afloat rather than watching them disappear like Sabena, Swiss Air, etc.
Japan's JNR and France's SNCF receive typical funding in upgrades for a single line greater than all of the money given to Amtrak, not just the NEC. It is almost surprising that Amtrak has performed as well as it has over the last four decades given its disownership by both parties. Trains are crucial!
8
For over two decades I've lived across the street from railroad tracks for freight trains. This is also, what I call, an access area. So I see railroad workers all the time. From my experience, start with SUPERVISING the employees. Then talk money and refurbishing the railroad system.
Last July, an engine ran off the tracks over the Delaware Bridge in Easton, PA/Phillipsburg, NJ. Didn't make the news because they lucked out, this time.
REALLY sick of the political rhetoric. Are readers that stupid as to a) not realize that the conductor was speeding and the union is protecting him, and b) that Congress already gives out a billion dollars a year, a billion that none of us understand or can 'see' how it's being spent?
Even if you are a died in the wool progress on the far left of communism, certainly you have the sense to know what 50 mph vs. 106 mph means. Certainly you are not foolish enough to think a billion dollars a year is not sufficient. Hopefully you are not naive enough to believe that a billion dollars that disappears, unaccounted for doesn't require some kind of investigation itself. Or no, just print more money and give it out - no one is pocketing it or mis-spending - who would do such a thing?
Even if you are a died in the wool progress on the far left of communism, certainly you have the sense to know what 50 mph vs. 106 mph means. Certainly you are not foolish enough to think a billion dollars a year is not sufficient. Hopefully you are not naive enough to believe that a billion dollars that disappears, unaccounted for doesn't require some kind of investigation itself. Or no, just print more money and give it out - no one is pocketing it or mis-spending - who would do such a thing?
2
Human error happens. Technology exists to mitigate human error - -and we should take advantage of that technology. Yes I know it costs money. I travel in Europe and Japan several times a year -- and I can tell you, the railway system in Europe and Japan is lightyears ahead of ours. Why not try to improve?
7
REALLY sick of denial that US infrastructure is falling apart yet "politics" prevent us from updating. Instead we spend money on unwindable wars. REALLY sick of that.
Message to Congress and the American people: infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure. We need desperately to rebuild the roads, bridges, railways and ports to support the commerce that helped to make this a great country and that will keep us competitive globally. It will cost money. We have known this for a long time.
5
infrastructure is not much of a factor when people, for whatever reason, go twice the speed limit. You can have the best infrastructure and it makes no difference when you are going TWICE the speed limit.
It will cost money to rebuild our infrastructure, but look at the jobs it would create.
My thoughts and prayers are with families & friends of those passengers who were killed, and for those who have been injured, as well.
I am pleased that the Philly police had a blood sample taken from the engineer and they also took his cell phone.
My guess, as to the most important reason this disaster occurred, is that the engineers was texting.
I am pleased that the Philly police had a blood sample taken from the engineer and they also took his cell phone.
My guess, as to the most important reason this disaster occurred, is that the engineers was texting.
What was the engineer doing while the train got up to 106 mph? Why is the engineer refusing to talk to officials? How long should it take to 'read' the black box to determine when the train began accelerating to that 106 mph speed?
2
I am interested in the need for the engineer to "recover" before questioning. He is no doubt getting legal counsel. Unless the train decided to go 100+ miles an hour with the engineer trying to stop it, I think we have a pretty clear case of gross negligence and manslaughter. But hey, let's blame the tracks or the braking technology, and make sure this guy is given his right to be proven innocent. Maybe he'll get to sit next to Tsarnaev in prison. A fine pair.
3
This accident may or may not be a result of infrastructure failure. If it wasn't, that does not change the fact that America's infrastructure is failing and we need to do something about it. The price of gasoline has risen over 60 cents per gallon since its recent lows, and Americans have barely noticed. Yet our Congress won't even consider the idea that we raise the tax on gasoline by a few cents a gallon. It's hard to come up with a good reason why. If it's to placate the few who are against any sort of tax increase under any circumstances, then our legislatures must reconsider their priorities. The vast majority of Americans understand the need for a safe, reliable transportation system, and would be willing to pay a little more at the pump to fund it. Heck, given the wildly fluctuating price of gasoline, anyway, they wouldn't even notice it.
4
This was a preventable tragedy. So much is being made about positive train control, congressional funding, etc., but if the engineer had simply observed the speed limits none of us would now be discussing this. Seven people would be with their families on this day. He made a decision to ignore the limits. That's all there is to this. Why, then, doesn't this story discuss this most important of all factors more? The rest is distraction, and ignores the actual conditions of this event. A human made a bad decision. That's it. The big question is why.
4
Regardless of infrastructure issues, a train should not be allowed to go that fast in this area. Amtrak trains need to be upgraded so engineers cannot override the system so they can reach the destination faster.
Secondly, this engineer is saying he has no memory of the crash and the time preceding the crash. This may be a result of a concussion. However, when the NTSB investigation is concluded, this engineer should be charged with manslaughter times seven. No excuse for the train to have been going this fast. None.
Thirdly, congress does not give money to Amtrak because neither them, their family nor their big contributors ride the train. Politicians are mainly concerned with re-election---regardless of their political party. In Europe, a greater percentage of citizens ride trains, therefore European and UK train service is superior.
Charge this engineer with manslaughter!!!
Secondly, this engineer is saying he has no memory of the crash and the time preceding the crash. This may be a result of a concussion. However, when the NTSB investigation is concluded, this engineer should be charged with manslaughter times seven. No excuse for the train to have been going this fast. None.
Thirdly, congress does not give money to Amtrak because neither them, their family nor their big contributors ride the train. Politicians are mainly concerned with re-election---regardless of their political party. In Europe, a greater percentage of citizens ride trains, therefore European and UK train service is superior.
Charge this engineer with manslaughter!!!
1
Humans will always make bad decisions. Why not use the technology to mitigate the disasters caused by human error?
2
Message to Congress and the American people: infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure--we need to rebuild the highways, railways, bridges, and ports that made this country great in the first place and that are needed to remain competitive globally. It will cost money.
11
NO. Amtrak is the most inefficient, bureacracy driven 'company' ever. They recieve over a billion a year now. Where is that money going??
1
Perhaps we or the President should explain to Congress that more unwanted military bases are not "infrastructure". In fact, these bases are not even "job creators" when they are barely, or rarely used by the military, except to house military personnel who do not have a big war to fight.
2
I was born in Manhattan. I worked in Manhattan. When I got married I took the Long Island Railroad to my home in Far Rockaway.
The city the state has to take lives more seriously. Trains and buses must be in tip top shapeto operate. Rails from the trains have to be in tip top shape. We are living is 2015, the officials should know better than this, this did not have to happen. This was 100% neglegance.
The city the state has to take lives more seriously. Trains and buses must be in tip top shapeto operate. Rails from the trains have to be in tip top shape. We are living is 2015, the officials should know better than this, this did not have to happen. This was 100% neglegance.
1
Given the slowness of Amtrak in getting the required safety systems installed, could somebody not simply write a smartphone app that loudly notifies all company employees on the train that they are over the speed limit at any geographical point. That would be relatively easy to implement.
At least then there might be the chance of getting action taken by one of them.
At least then there might be the chance of getting action taken by one of them.
3
In all but the very newest and most expensive automobiles, there is no automatic limiting of speed. When a auto driver crashes at twice the speed limit, how often does the investigation look at anything but driver error (and likely intoxication).
It interesting to see the back box speed data at the moment of the crash, but it may be more telling to see the train speed at other points during the journey. i.e. was excessive speed habitual for this journey.
It interesting to see the back box speed data at the moment of the crash, but it may be more telling to see the train speed at other points during the journey. i.e. was excessive speed habitual for this journey.
2
This dreadful tragedy is so transparently about operator error. The engineer must have fallen asleep. Because if he doesn't know he's supposed to slow down drastically for a curve, he's not fit to ride a bicycle.
2
How many on the House Committee that derailed additional funding for Amtrak get significant income from the automobile industry and/or the oil/gas industry? Anybody that does has a major conflict of interest and deliberate incentive to destroy Amtrak, especially in the popular northeast corridor with the most ridership and most democrats. The GOP basically wants to kill Amtrak and what better way than to starve it to death, destroy enough equipment and track that will cost too much to fix well, and terrify potential users from riding again. Perhaps this is a domestic terrorism plot.
Back around 1900 the new automobile and gas/oil tycoons declared war against rail expansion. This war has not stopped.
Back around 1900 the new automobile and gas/oil tycoons declared war against rail expansion. This war has not stopped.
4
I take Amtrak between Boston and new York frequently. It's outrageously outmoded and feels unsafe. Much of the issue of funding comes from the hard facts that as a country rail travel never took off with the public. Our cities are too close to each other while others are too far. We rose to super power status just as Air travel caught on. We never were a train riding country. Air travel is faster and more reliable for business travelers. For others, it's cars.... a big part of American culture, everyone drives, or rents a car. Given the dilapidated state of the trains, the delays, and lacking modern necessities like wifi, it's not really the fault of a Republican congress being mean by rejecting further funding, rather than it's money thrown away. Tracks were laid at a time when high speed was a fantasy, much of the tacks in the east are literally in the backyards of suburban homes, speeds are reduced in these stretches, hence the delays. It's best if we simply accept high speed trains in the east will never happen.
1
Really? Train travel was used by all travelers before air travel became convenient for all travelers. There is nothing convenient about the constant delays due to bad weather. There is nothing convenient about Dulles airport located miles from DC. And, how many passengers walked off those rail cars, as opposed to passengers who don't when a plane crashes? I took the train from DC to NYC when I lived there; I never felt unsafe. The train tracks were there before those housing tracts were built.
Computerized control systems are not a panacea. On January 6, 1996, a train operator on the DC Metrorail system requested permission to override the computer system on his train because he felt the system was not responding properly to severe weather conditions. Permission was denied, possibly because of a directive that encouraged computerized braking because it lowered maintenance costs to the brake systems. A few minutes later, the computer failed to stop the train quickly enough to avoid a collision with a stopped train, and the train operator was killed. This was all widely reported at the time by the Washington Post.
1
And there was another accident, with multiple fatalities, on Washington Metro a few years back when it was operating automatically. For several years the automatic operation was not utilized so that retrofitting could be done. We need both humans with judgement and systems that can ameliorAte the risks of poor human judgement. I don't want a pilotness lane or an engineerless train but I do want the most up-to-date safety technology to minimize the chances of accidents and to enhance the likelihood that the human operating the mode of transport will perform optimally.
It seems obvious that a huge investment in our infrastructure is required and the polarized nature of the recent (at least since late 90s) politics is responsible for a failure of will. Both parties and many personalities are responsible. We are currently paying the price and the price will escalate with time. The human factor, no matter the technology or infrastructure, will always play a role. In this instance all indications, pending a full investigation, are that the engineer, for some reason, failed to adhere to established guidelines for speed in a severe curve. The consequences of this apparent human error have been catastrophic.
1
Why worry about other terrorist organizations killing our people at home, we have the US Congress the majority of whose members are more interested in cutting taxes than in providing for our health, safety and welfare.
Our vital infrastructure is desperately in need of maintanence and repair and expansion; including railroads, roads, bridges, tunnels, dams, airports and canals. This railroad accident can be linked to the stupidity and venality that has been on display in Washington and our state capitals for too many years.
Our vital infrastructure is desperately in need of maintanence and repair and expansion; including railroads, roads, bridges, tunnels, dams, airports and canals. This railroad accident can be linked to the stupidity and venality that has been on display in Washington and our state capitals for too many years.
8
How correct you are. The U. S. Congress is currently our worst enemy.
1
It wasn't that long ago in America when having two engineers in each locomotive and two police officers in each patrol car was the norm/standard.
4
While waiting for the NTSB results, almost everybody is vilifying the engineer as the most reasonable culprit. It appears he was not paying attention to "driving the train". We've seen suicidal pilots, sleeping engineers, texting while operating a train.
Almost all commercial aircraft require two pilots. Has anybody considered putting two engineers in the locomotive?
Almost all commercial aircraft require two pilots. Has anybody considered putting two engineers in the locomotive?
1
That's too expensive!
But that would be too expensive.
Wouldn't even have to be a highly paid engineer, just someone qualified to confirm signals and hit the stop button if something happened to the engineer.
1
Children killed by a lone shooter, gun control? Virtually nothing.
Passengers killed in train wrecks , train regulations/safety increased? Nothing
In fact, Republicans have been antagonistic towards any safety, reflected in Wednesday's vote...
Who do Republicans( many democrats) really work for?
Passengers killed in train wrecks , train regulations/safety increased? Nothing
In fact, Republicans have been antagonistic towards any safety, reflected in Wednesday's vote...
Who do Republicans( many democrats) really work for?
5
Well, they DON'T work for the 99% of us, that's for sure!
1
In programming, you build into good programs that mistakes happen, and you prepare to handle them. Of course, this wreck was human error. So you implement the system that has been implemented in other places (you don't need Google to invent driverless trains) and it forces the train to slow when it hits a curve like this. What happens if the engineer has a heart attach 1 min before? Not his fault. So build a better system. Quit praying. The praying won't do it.
4
After reading the comment from Brazil about the lack of responsible parties "in charge" while I agree somewhat I think it is too soon to make any comments. The engineer does "not remember" what happened: had he fallen asleep before the train sped up, or did he have a stroke or other disabling experience?
He made a big mistake, likely dosed off, but the union is protecting him. LIke the always do.
This accident needs to be laid squarely at the feet of an inept and myopic Congress that comes up with one lame excuse after another for not properly funding AMTRAK upgrades, maintenance and expansion. It is a vital service critical to the well being and future of the country. It doesn't matter if it never turns a profit! The military which Congress is wont to lavishly fund does not and is not expected to turn a profit either. Vital services are like that.
7
Maybe as an offset, they should increase the budget of the NTSB.
2
For over two decades I've lived across the street from railroad tracks for freight trains. This is also, what I call, an access area. So I see railroad workers all the time.
From my experience, start with SUPERVISING the employees. Then talk money and refurbishing the railroad system.
Last July, an engine ran off the tracks over the Delaware Bridge in Easton, PA/Phillipsburg, NJ. Didn't make the news because they lucked out, this time.
From my experience, start with SUPERVISING the employees. Then talk money and refurbishing the railroad system.
Last July, an engine ran off the tracks over the Delaware Bridge in Easton, PA/Phillipsburg, NJ. Didn't make the news because they lucked out, this time.
1
Big government people seem to have an affinity for rail. But what real advantage does it have over bus service in areas where usage is light?
The issue of lack of government subsidy funding has come up as a result of the accident. There are obvious solutions that do not require massive subsidies and dedicated rail infrastructure where usage is light. First eliminate routes that do not have enough volume to support the expensive rail infrastructure and substitute bus service. Second, on the remaining routes, raise fares to a level that make them entirely fare funded, or replace them with bus service as well. If trains service in an area costs more than customers will pay, then why not substitute bus service.
Unlike trains that travel a well defined route, buses can travel anywhere a road is and have multiple stops at convenient locations within the destination town or city. While trains may be more fuel efficient, I expect loaded buses do very well in terms of per person mile / gallon and total cost per passenger mile when volume is too low for a train.
John
The issue of lack of government subsidy funding has come up as a result of the accident. There are obvious solutions that do not require massive subsidies and dedicated rail infrastructure where usage is light. First eliminate routes that do not have enough volume to support the expensive rail infrastructure and substitute bus service. Second, on the remaining routes, raise fares to a level that make them entirely fare funded, or replace them with bus service as well. If trains service in an area costs more than customers will pay, then why not substitute bus service.
Unlike trains that travel a well defined route, buses can travel anywhere a road is and have multiple stops at convenient locations within the destination town or city. While trains may be more fuel efficient, I expect loaded buses do very well in terms of per person mile / gallon and total cost per passenger mile when volume is too low for a train.
John
2
The major drawback of buses is that they can't travel any faster than traffic will allow. Trains should be able to deliver faster service but be less expensive and less hassle than flying.
1
John, when is the last time you experienced a 3-hour bus trip? My guess is never, since your 25th birthday!!! So easy to promote a solution you would never have to use. I don't take seriously a solution proposed by someone who is not a likely consumer of that service.
This particular route is one that is uniquely well suited to train transit as it is between DC and Boston, the two ends of the NE megalopolis. Whether or not buses may be better in some other areas is besides the point when it comes to the needed transit upgrades on the most popular train route (not only for Amtrak, but it also includes NJ transit and probably a bunch of other trains).
1
I believe we will find that much like the accident in NY that it will be human error as opposed to technology or infrastructure. Ask your self the question, why now? when thousands of trains have negotiated the track without incident. The operators of these machines should be vetted and pass rigorous annual physical, health and mental checks. They should be monitored by video in the cabin and held to the highest standards of professionalism. As I said, I think we will find this will be a case of a distracted or otherwise incapacitated operator, bet on it the lawyers and unions aren't going to let this out without a fight. Oh yeah and get rid of any smart phones or PC's in the cabin.
1
Why do we need anything as complicated and expensive as PTC? Cab signaling has been around for probably about half a century, and with it the ability to easily enforce speed limits based on old-fashioned hard-wired signal systems. I know that the LIRR's electric commuter trains moo at the engineer whenever the train enters a speed-restricted (due to a train ahead, the layout of the tracks, or the setting of the track switches ahead) block, and I'm pretty sure there's something in place that will throw on the emergency brakes if he doesn't slow to the indicated limit. This has been in place for decades. Even our 1904-vintage subway signals have a crude but effective system called "grade time" to prevent this kind of accident.
2
I'm incredulous that this could have even happened...All trains should have automatic throttle control that prevents this based on location. Should be the law. Otherwise, physics becomes the only unbreakable law and as a result, people die needlessly.
3
If the tracks are like roadways (in suburbia and many cities) there's no longer enforcement of speed regulations. As you know, in some places if you jaywalk or sell a cigarette, you will be approached by the police or worse. IN others, enforcement is ignored.
Who's watching the speeding trains?
Who's watching the speeding trains?
1
Three facts: hours after the wreck, Congress was debating cutting nearly 20% out of the Amtrak budget, China has now built nearly 10,000 miles of high speed rail lines while the U.S. has built 0 and European trains are running at over twice the speed U.S. trains and Chinese trains can run at nearly 4 time the speed of U.S. trains.
The ability to move people and goods cheaply and quickly is a major factor in an economy being able to serve it citizens and compete in the world. Just where would our economy be without the building of our railroads, our canal and river system and interstate road system? How would we have responded to World War II without the ability to move troops and war materials across our country?
Members of Congress , in their zeal to get money from the super rich are openly wrecking the American economy and the ability of the American people to have a positive future.
The ability to move people and goods cheaply and quickly is a major factor in an economy being able to serve it citizens and compete in the world. Just where would our economy be without the building of our railroads, our canal and river system and interstate road system? How would we have responded to World War II without the ability to move troops and war materials across our country?
Members of Congress , in their zeal to get money from the super rich are openly wrecking the American economy and the ability of the American people to have a positive future.
4
I have ridden high speed trains in Europe and China, comfortable, convenient and on time. They are not beholden to fossil fuel dollars to pay for year long election campaigns. As for buses, spend some time in the NYC Port Authority.
1
The engineer's lawyer reported that the engineer "… finding his cell phone and dialing 911."
I'll bet good money that the guy had been talking or texting on it at the time of the crash.
I'll bet good money that the guy had been talking or texting on it at the time of the crash.
1
Why would any representative in the House or Senator in the Senate
vote to cripple our nation's ability to succeed....why because if costs
more money....well if we cannot transport our manufactured goods; or
our crude oil; on unsafe rails....and if we cannot export due to crumbling
pipe lines....and ports which cannot dock the newest global tankers..
well...then I guess those congressmen and women who vote to cripple
our nation are not representing our nation at all.
So who are these traitors...never mind the excuses...because if we cripple
our nation willfully...then these representatives must be invested in another
nation...not ours...so who are these representatives...Print their names !!!
vote to cripple our nation's ability to succeed....why because if costs
more money....well if we cannot transport our manufactured goods; or
our crude oil; on unsafe rails....and if we cannot export due to crumbling
pipe lines....and ports which cannot dock the newest global tankers..
well...then I guess those congressmen and women who vote to cripple
our nation are not representing our nation at all.
So who are these traitors...never mind the excuses...because if we cripple
our nation willfully...then these representatives must be invested in another
nation...not ours...so who are these representatives...Print their names !!!
1
Last February we took that train from Washington and NY. We were stopped on the raíls during two horus for "inspections". Expensive and bad service.
"He was already in the curve..."
"while coming up on a sharp left turn..."
Why a curve? Whay a sharp turn? Why a bend in the track?
Terrible US rail infrastructure. Terrible rail system.
High speed rail? No.
Not compared to Europe, Japan, China, etc...
Terrible US transportation infrastructure.
(But we have useless nuclear missiles, useless nuclear submarines, ...)
US is going down.
"while coming up on a sharp left turn..."
Why a curve? Whay a sharp turn? Why a bend in the track?
Terrible US rail infrastructure. Terrible rail system.
High speed rail? No.
Not compared to Europe, Japan, China, etc...
Terrible US transportation infrastructure.
(But we have useless nuclear missiles, useless nuclear submarines, ...)
US is going down.
5
Yes, and with all of the blame being dished at Republicans, this Democrat knows ObAma has kept us in Afghanisttan, maintained a presence in Iraq, continued with the terrorism furor.. what do we have? A militaristic police. A lousy infrastructure. And increasing bankruptcy. Not only is this accident preventable but so are the other misadventures at home and abroad.
1
What a tragedy. People are so quick to cast blame. Inject personal spin to justify political beliefs. Perhaps we could wait a few days while the seriously injured are tended too and the dead are mourned and buried. It will take at least that long to find out more of the facts of the case.
We know the train was excessively speeding going into a curve and hit the brakes at the last second. How people can blame republicans for not increasing a funding request for Amtrak that coincidently happened in Washington the same day is ludicrous. Crazy. Politically sensational. Opportunistic.
And before we throw the train engineer under the bus, we need to find out the facts. What happened in the drivers seat of the train. Was he trying to make up time as the train was late and became distracted? Fell asleep? Busy texting?? While there is no excuse for operating the train in a safe and responsible manner shouldn't we all hold our breath until some of the dust has cleared before attacking the easy targets as we deam appropriate:
Amtrack
Engineer
Track maintenance and design
Safety features and override (positive train control)
Politcal motivation/funding or lack thereof
There is no doubt that a serious review of train operation, track maintenance, safety feature implementation, operator training and oversight needs to take place. It is a shame that so many lives had to to seriously injured and lives lost to bring attention to a serious problem. The traveling public deserves better.
We know the train was excessively speeding going into a curve and hit the brakes at the last second. How people can blame republicans for not increasing a funding request for Amtrak that coincidently happened in Washington the same day is ludicrous. Crazy. Politically sensational. Opportunistic.
And before we throw the train engineer under the bus, we need to find out the facts. What happened in the drivers seat of the train. Was he trying to make up time as the train was late and became distracted? Fell asleep? Busy texting?? While there is no excuse for operating the train in a safe and responsible manner shouldn't we all hold our breath until some of the dust has cleared before attacking the easy targets as we deam appropriate:
Amtrack
Engineer
Track maintenance and design
Safety features and override (positive train control)
Politcal motivation/funding or lack thereof
There is no doubt that a serious review of train operation, track maintenance, safety feature implementation, operator training and oversight needs to take place. It is a shame that so many lives had to to seriously injured and lives lost to bring attention to a serious problem. The traveling public deserves better.
1
They run Amtrak on a shoestring budget and have the gall to try to make it smaller every year. Our rail system compared to Europe and Japan should be a national shame. Like Baltimore, our bridges, our highways and such have been neglected to the point of disgrace. We rebuild Iraq but can't rebuild our own infrastructure. The fact that high speed rail is not even on the drawing board is mind boggling. Rail tank cars just so old they fall apart spilling whatever toxic mix they have in them. Why not put people in towns like Baltimore to work rebuilding America? More than half the bridges in America is an accident waiting to happen. Getting ready for the old knee jerk reaction of this Amtrak tragedy someone will call for another study of the study of the study. Both sides of the aisle should be ashamed that while they fiddled America crumbled. Fifty votes to kill Obamacare how many votes to rebuild America? In truth it is our fault because we keep voting these bums into office. Anyone been to La Guardia airport recently? High speed rail would cut into the oil companies strangle hold on us the consumer. Better mass transit means less gasoline sold. That will be the day we think about the little guy. Cut taxes for the rich so they can buy more cars not us better trains!
4
And a Republican congress wants to cut Amtrak funding in half
4
Speed kills. If yet more money is needed to slow down trains from doubling the speed limit, take it from retired public employees receiving a pension in excess of $75,000 per year.
Yeah take it from the retired workers . Don't ever bother the 1%.
The engineer has no recollection of the events (and won't in the future) because of the lawsuits that will soon be initiated.
Anyone who has been to Western Europe knows that the American train system is a tragic joke. An embarrassment for an industrialized country like the U.S. I can recall whizzing along at 200 mph from nice to Paris, without any issues, while sitting in a clean, nicely appointed 2nd class cabin and for a reasonable price. Much lip service is done to upgrading our crumbling infrastructure, but nothing is done about it.
4
Two comments are appropriate to this story:
1. Symathies to those who survive the victims -- how very sad for everyone --and best wishes for healing to those who were hurt and are recovering.
2. Let's see what the investigation discloses.
Amtrak has gotten me to many wonderful adventures over my lifetime; inquiry is ongoing on how this has happened -- infrastructure, machine or human error.
1. Symathies to those who survive the victims -- how very sad for everyone --and best wishes for healing to those who were hurt and are recovering.
2. Let's see what the investigation discloses.
Amtrak has gotten me to many wonderful adventures over my lifetime; inquiry is ongoing on how this has happened -- infrastructure, machine or human error.
One would think that now that the Amtrak system can be reclassified as a killing machine the Republicans will go after it and make certain that it can get a lot more money.
1
Wow! Wow! 106 mph! OMG! Horrors! Meanwhile, in Tokyo, Paris, Dusseldorf, Oslo and London, high speed trains barrel through heavily congested cities at twice this speed. No trains derail. No people are killed needlessly.
Now we come down to it, don't we? Four or more decades of the northeast transportation corridor getting the shaft so our tax dollars can flush to Big Oil to Drill Baby Drill, frackola, mine coal, manufacture more guns, load up prisons for fat tax subsidsies...all in the red states.
Meanwhile, the northeast suffers a massive super storm and the southern rebels and midwestern cornballs scream to high heaven when its time to shell out for FEMA for our states. When NY, NJ and other northeastern states get back on average, 65 cents for every $1 we pay in federal taxes and these pork barrel states are averaging anywhere from $1.35 to $1.87 for their $1, you don't need a calculator to figure out which states get the shaft and why our need for state-of-the-art transit in the most heavily traveled region of the us should be No. 1 before one more oil rig is allowed to be built or one more red state prison fattens up to collect more of our tax dollars. Not to mention the red states lapping up 50% of the defense budget as military industrialists.
But then, you get cornpones like Corker saying how wonderful it is that his state pays for ALL of their infrastructure...what he doesn't say is WHERE that state funding comes from...northeastern taxpayers.
Now we come down to it, don't we? Four or more decades of the northeast transportation corridor getting the shaft so our tax dollars can flush to Big Oil to Drill Baby Drill, frackola, mine coal, manufacture more guns, load up prisons for fat tax subsidsies...all in the red states.
Meanwhile, the northeast suffers a massive super storm and the southern rebels and midwestern cornballs scream to high heaven when its time to shell out for FEMA for our states. When NY, NJ and other northeastern states get back on average, 65 cents for every $1 we pay in federal taxes and these pork barrel states are averaging anywhere from $1.35 to $1.87 for their $1, you don't need a calculator to figure out which states get the shaft and why our need for state-of-the-art transit in the most heavily traveled region of the us should be No. 1 before one more oil rig is allowed to be built or one more red state prison fattens up to collect more of our tax dollars. Not to mention the red states lapping up 50% of the defense budget as military industrialists.
But then, you get cornpones like Corker saying how wonderful it is that his state pays for ALL of their infrastructure...what he doesn't say is WHERE that state funding comes from...northeastern taxpayers.
4
A train engineer falls asleep at the wheel, train derails and people get killed. A woman ignores flashing lights, tries to drive through a track crossing, gets stuck and people get killed. This engineer inexcusably drives his train around a bend at 106 MPH, derails and people get killed. Human error, negligence and self absorption caused the deaths of these people, not signal systems or a lack of funding. Certainly safety improvements are desirable, but let's not (1) give a pass to the bad actors who cause these tragedies, or (2) pretend that every such occurrence is the fault of some political opponent.
4
The point is that human error happens -- for whatever reason. So shouldn't we use the technology to try to mitigate the disastrous effects of human error? Our politicians say "no."
1
What a horrible tragedy and testament to the USAs crumbling infrastructure. The GOP even cut funding for Amtrak. This horrible tragedy should be a wake up call to invest in our infrastructure. Anyone who has traveled abroad upon returning to the USA, cant help but think how far behind we are in providing a safely maintained infrastructure for our citizens.
3
From Gary Pang, Ray's father.
My first real job out of college was with the SLSF railroad, in St. Louis. Before that several generations of my family worked on the Illinois Central RR. When you hired on you were given a rule book and told to read it, learn it and understand it. There were classes on the rules, what the ramifications were, and in most instances why the rules existed. Everyone involved in train operations went through that. I worked as a telegrapher/operator. People involved in train operations took their jobs with a serious attitude. If you did not, you were aware that you could get killed, you could be responsible for killing others and at worst you could burn a small town down or kill lots of people. Some people are asserting that the accident could have been avoided had Positive Train Control (PTC) been in place. This is true, but the far more simple, assertion is that had this engineer followed the rules, this never would have happened, as it had not for over 70 years. In the absence of a finding of illness, this nothing short of murder. In a way. it is an insult to all of the railroad workers who toil, almost unnoticed throughout this country, until there is an accident.
My first real job out of college was with the SLSF railroad, in St. Louis. Before that several generations of my family worked on the Illinois Central RR. When you hired on you were given a rule book and told to read it, learn it and understand it. There were classes on the rules, what the ramifications were, and in most instances why the rules existed. Everyone involved in train operations went through that. I worked as a telegrapher/operator. People involved in train operations took their jobs with a serious attitude. If you did not, you were aware that you could get killed, you could be responsible for killing others and at worst you could burn a small town down or kill lots of people. Some people are asserting that the accident could have been avoided had Positive Train Control (PTC) been in place. This is true, but the far more simple, assertion is that had this engineer followed the rules, this never would have happened, as it had not for over 70 years. In the absence of a finding of illness, this nothing short of murder. In a way. it is an insult to all of the railroad workers who toil, almost unnoticed throughout this country, until there is an accident.
3
Can we please not ignore the fact that our train infrastructure is among the worst in the developed world? Compare us to Europe and Japan for example. The auto and oil companies long ago conspired to influence lawmakers to favor roads over train lines, and we continue to suffer the consequences of these policies. I hope citizens and lawmakers will now begin to recognize the folly of these ways and back efforts to at least improve our train lines, if not build new lines which can travel safely at the speeds this train was traveling.
23
With all respect, I am from England, and just under a week ago we had a derailment just outside Brighton Station (A minor one, luckily with no injuries) But I think it is a little generalised to say Europe has a better transport system. Over Winter 2014, Trains took 5 hours to perform a 3 mile stretch between Gatwick and Three Bridges because we weren't in a state to handle adverse weather conditions.
On a similar, but not quite as terrible note, Denmark also has issues with sending trains in the wrong directions from the wrong platforms, delaying customers on a daily basis.
I do agree, however, that Germany, Japan, and Switzerland all have above average transport systems. Germany, despite having a fulling functioning transit system, in fact pay 1/3 of what we do here in England. (It's approximately 40-60p/mile here)
And theirs is private owned, public invested.
On a similar, but not quite as terrible note, Denmark also has issues with sending trains in the wrong directions from the wrong platforms, delaying customers on a daily basis.
I do agree, however, that Germany, Japan, and Switzerland all have above average transport systems. Germany, despite having a fulling functioning transit system, in fact pay 1/3 of what we do here in England. (It's approximately 40-60p/mile here)
And theirs is private owned, public invested.
7
Has anyone wondered why our "leaders" haven't done the right thing by this country and improved the rail infrastructure? Could it be that they simply cannot go up against the Oil Cartel without committing political suicide?
3
Hmmm good point , along with gun cartel, insurance cartel , bomb factory cartel, etc. it's a rare leader who owes allegiance to just God and his constituents
1
In true Obama fashion, never let a fake crisis go to waste. This tragedy becomes politicized and turns into a budget battle over funding for the mismanaged Amtrak, and renewed debate over infrastructure. Sadly, these seven victims are about all that's shovel ready.
The article seems to be making excuses for the engineer, describing what advanced track and signal technology might have prevented the accident. Well, this technology hasn't been in place, and travel through this stretch of traffic hasn't been dangerous previously. Unless the train accelerated on its own, the engineer messed up. No excuses about Union complaints, too many hours, etc will bring these people back or heal the broken. Instead of excuses, barring mechanical failure, the engineer should be fired and charged with manslaughter and assault.
Perhaps Google should develop a driverless train,
The article seems to be making excuses for the engineer, describing what advanced track and signal technology might have prevented the accident. Well, this technology hasn't been in place, and travel through this stretch of traffic hasn't been dangerous previously. Unless the train accelerated on its own, the engineer messed up. No excuses about Union complaints, too many hours, etc will bring these people back or heal the broken. Instead of excuses, barring mechanical failure, the engineer should be fired and charged with manslaughter and assault.
Perhaps Google should develop a driverless train,
3
Blaming the train driver doesn't make trains any safer. No one cares what is most "just", they want to ride a train without dying. There is existing technology to make that happen, so it should be used.
1
Having the best safety systems does not preclude assigning responsibility or bringing charges.humans are humans and will make mistakes. We try to minimize or prevent these. Better positive train control had been in place and this accident prevented than charging the engineer after the fact. All the charges and trials in the world will not bring the dead back or heal the wounded.
1
These words are the best I've read here.
Some one is going to jail for a very long time soon, and should.
1
So many comments, so much criticism, so much analysis of our shortcomings.... the train was going over 100 mph in a 50 mph zone! That's the problem. The engineer has lawyered up and what is an open and shut case will be obfuscated by the clamor of more money, their fault, let's rebuild etc.
4
So we should not invest in technology that would mitigate the effect of human error -- even tho' we all know the possibility of human error is always present.
There is only one reason for this tragedy - the train was going way too fast. You cannot control excessive speed, which directly caused this horrible situation.
2
Excessive speed can be controlled. We have the technology to do so.
And once again Republicans blocked increased funding for Amtrak and the national infrastructure funding will probably have yet another temporary fix.
The other article here on technology that could have slowed the train, as well as comments on out-dated train cars without the protections of newer ones also exemplifies the dangerous state of the country's infrastructure: rail systems, airports, roads, bridges, and ports are in crisis conditions, and the country's spending on infrastructure is stalled at a level that is decades old.
Every life lost in these infrastructure disasters is on the heads of Republicans in Congress. There will be more and more disasters because they would rather spend millions on Benghazi witch hunt hearings and billions on pointless government shutdowns. Shame.
The other article here on technology that could have slowed the train, as well as comments on out-dated train cars without the protections of newer ones also exemplifies the dangerous state of the country's infrastructure: rail systems, airports, roads, bridges, and ports are in crisis conditions, and the country's spending on infrastructure is stalled at a level that is decades old.
Every life lost in these infrastructure disasters is on the heads of Republicans in Congress. There will be more and more disasters because they would rather spend millions on Benghazi witch hunt hearings and billions on pointless government shutdowns. Shame.
6
According to some figures, the US gives away around $40 billion a year in foreign aid, military assistance, etc. I support helping the world.
However, with the US infrastructure crumbling (age old bridges, roads, etc. that need repair) and implementation of safety systems delayed (like in the Amtrak accident), I can't help but wonder how many more people will die as a result of our country's failure to improve its systems. There seems to be a budget crises each year and these projects each year are delayed.
Yet the US seems to be the first one to pass out money to other countries with little regard to its own needs.
I'd vote for any person running for office...democrat, republican, independent...that would support reducing, for the next 10 years, our foreign give away by 10%.
With that money we could put people back to work and save lives.
Seems intuitive to me.
However, with the US infrastructure crumbling (age old bridges, roads, etc. that need repair) and implementation of safety systems delayed (like in the Amtrak accident), I can't help but wonder how many more people will die as a result of our country's failure to improve its systems. There seems to be a budget crises each year and these projects each year are delayed.
Yet the US seems to be the first one to pass out money to other countries with little regard to its own needs.
I'd vote for any person running for office...democrat, republican, independent...that would support reducing, for the next 10 years, our foreign give away by 10%.
With that money we could put people back to work and save lives.
Seems intuitive to me.
5
Amtrack is unsafe at any speed. Passenger safety is obviously not an important factor. It does not take a genius to figure out that going around a 90% turn at twice the regulated speed will cause a derailment.
This crash looks exactly like the crash in the Bronx in 2013. Four people died.The train was going around a 90 degree turn (coming off the main line) at 60 MPH. The engineer fell asleep. No one was held accountable and nothing was learned. So it happened again.
It could have been worse if the train hit the oil tankers standing nearby.
Shut down the entire system until it is safe.
This crash looks exactly like the crash in the Bronx in 2013. Four people died.The train was going around a 90 degree turn (coming off the main line) at 60 MPH. The engineer fell asleep. No one was held accountable and nothing was learned. So it happened again.
It could have been worse if the train hit the oil tankers standing nearby.
Shut down the entire system until it is safe.
2
Most disasters have multiple causes. While the speed of the train was to fast for the curve, why was the curve so sharp? Yesterday the NewYork Times had an editorial by two Mayors begging for funds to update transportation needs. The National Highway Fund was set up to assist states and cities meet there transportation needs. That fund is in trouble because it is based on gas tax and we use less gas as the fleet miles per gallon increases. Congress has not raised the gas tax for years or sought other sources of funds.
4
Great subject for students to examine. Meanwhile we each have to watch our every step to both survive and to be responsible
So tired of hearing every manmade tragedy blamed on funding. Funding did not cause that train to travel at 106MPH in a 50MPH speed zone on that curve. It was the train engineer who did that. Could technology stop it? Sure. But it takes time to put in technology. Each year there are about 50,000 deaths involving automobile "Accidents". Most deaths involve excess speed and/or drunken driving. We have the technology that will prevent cars from crashing, prevent cars from speeding and prevent cars from operating when the person behind the wheel is drunk. That technology is not mandated. Why not? Is the GOP responsible for that too? The technology should be paid for by those who use the product. When I travel over the Whitestone or Throgs Neck bridges that go from the Bronx to Queens in the NYC area it costs $15 round trip. It is a toll on me because I use the bridge even though no practical public transportation exists.The price for Amtrak updates should be borne by the riders. Tax exempt Bonds could finance the project and prices could be raised on all Amtrak riders to pay for it. It is like the usage toll I pay.
3
This sad incident is exactly the same to what happened in the Spanish region of Galicia a couple of years ago.
The driver did not do his job correctly and entered a curve arriving at a speed way higher than the correct one.
There are automatic speed controls, but they were not in place, I suppose to "save money".
Anyway really sad for the families and the injured travellers.
The driver did not do his job correctly and entered a curve arriving at a speed way higher than the correct one.
There are automatic speed controls, but they were not in place, I suppose to "save money".
Anyway really sad for the families and the injured travellers.
5
And yesterday, after this accident, Congress cut Amtrak's funding more. Enough with the Benghazi hearings. Let's have some hearings on how underfunding of Amtrak contributed to this accident and these deaths.
27
@everyone shamefully trying to make this political: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/14/us/technology-that-could-have-preve...
1
I think people are trying to suggest what can be done to prevent these accidents in the future. This requires politics.
All the talk about missing technology.... yes, just like our GPS - there should be an alarm.
But how about paying attention on the job?
Do we know if the engineer was on the phone, distracted, dozing?
Did he not know the route?
But how about paying attention on the job?
Do we know if the engineer was on the phone, distracted, dozing?
Did he not know the route?
3
What was the speed of the train from the time it left New York? Did the train leave on time? Were there any delays in route? (Surely, even some of the frequent passengers know if the train was speeding.)
The engineer has no recollection. Only his lawyer is talking. When did the engineer give the police a sample of his blood?
Amtrak is not talking. Why aren't they releasing what they know?
Based on 106 miles an hour and the momentum and weight of the train, how long before the curve would the engineer have had to apply the brakes to get down to 50 mph? (My bet is a minute or more, not seconds!)
(This smells like a train that was speeding along the way and an engineer who was asleep at the switch or high on something.)
Can't you put a governor on a train? If so, why not have them? (That is a lot cheaper than a system to take control.)
If the system is supposed to take control and run the train, what is the engineer supposed to be doing? Who makes the call?
If Amtrak has a system to take control along the route, just not in this section, if the train was speeding, why didn't it?
What was the basis of the priority of where the installed train control system was placed first?
Let's not rush to judgment but let's get some truthful answers to the real questions. Come on NYT!
The engineer has no recollection. Only his lawyer is talking. When did the engineer give the police a sample of his blood?
Amtrak is not talking. Why aren't they releasing what they know?
Based on 106 miles an hour and the momentum and weight of the train, how long before the curve would the engineer have had to apply the brakes to get down to 50 mph? (My bet is a minute or more, not seconds!)
(This smells like a train that was speeding along the way and an engineer who was asleep at the switch or high on something.)
Can't you put a governor on a train? If so, why not have them? (That is a lot cheaper than a system to take control.)
If the system is supposed to take control and run the train, what is the engineer supposed to be doing? Who makes the call?
If Amtrak has a system to take control along the route, just not in this section, if the train was speeding, why didn't it?
What was the basis of the priority of where the installed train control system was placed first?
Let's not rush to judgment but let's get some truthful answers to the real questions. Come on NYT!
6
The train was not too far out of Philadelphia's 30th Street Station when it crashed. It was something like five miles out and on the way to New York. Along the whole stretch of track he had traveled it doesn't seem that he should have been going that fast.
Agreed. The latest report says the train accelerated just before the crash. If the train was going 70 or 80 and the engineer pushed the lever hard the wrong way, that may explain what happened and how it could be going that fast.
When the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment 'Partnership' comes into force, will 'partners' like the UK be allowed bodies like the National Transportation Safety Board?
I won’t stop saying it, because with really every manmade disaster, the main cause is IRRESPONSIBILITY, one of the main human qualities. As these are no longer transmitted by parents after their authority and phyisical punishment have been taken away, the problem only gets worse.
Irresponsible people, thinking only of their own short-time interests, voted for irresponsible congressmen. Irresponsible figures select candidates for traindrivers, pilots and captains without looking at their human qualities. Only skills count, which is stupid and is leading to this kind of disasters. This is already the second recent case of a train derailing in the US due to speed, and the third worldwide (the other one was in Spain).
Irresponsible people, thinking only of their own short-time interests, voted for irresponsible congressmen. Irresponsible figures select candidates for traindrivers, pilots and captains without looking at their human qualities. Only skills count, which is stupid and is leading to this kind of disasters. This is already the second recent case of a train derailing in the US due to speed, and the third worldwide (the other one was in Spain).
3
I bought a USED car recently that has the capacity to automatically parallel park better than I can do manually. With all the technology at our disposal, why hasn't there long been some kind of "governor" to automatically prevent trains from going faster than is safe?
2
That kind of technology is used in the first world. Over here, we believe it's socialism to invest in technology that makes travel safer for the 99%.
1
Was the train running late?
Did the engineer feel pressured to catch up for lost time?
Why is Amtrak chronically late?
Why has the train infrastructure been so neglected?
Will we ever have sane people back in Congress who understand that regulated capitalism thrives on government money being pumped back into the system?
Did the engineer feel pressured to catch up for lost time?
Why is Amtrak chronically late?
Why has the train infrastructure been so neglected?
Will we ever have sane people back in Congress who understand that regulated capitalism thrives on government money being pumped back into the system?
4
All signs are that the engineer caused the crash and the equipment and track were fine. No reason for this to become a political event.
for those who want to use this accident as an excuse for more spending by the federal government, I note that there is nothing stopping NY, NJ, PA, DE and MD from spending more money to make rail service better on the corridor that runs thru their states. I would like them to do so. The costs of Amtrak tickets on the NE corridor could also be increased to pay for better service.
for those who want to use this accident as an excuse for more spending by the federal government, I note that there is nothing stopping NY, NJ, PA, DE and MD from spending more money to make rail service better on the corridor that runs thru their states. I would like them to do so. The costs of Amtrak tickets on the NE corridor could also be increased to pay for better service.
5
To Congress: You find ways to invest in military infrastructure, why do you find it so hard to invest in infrastructure serving the economy and people who the military are here to protect? If you can't bring yourselves to work together to find a way to continuously provide a well-planned infrastructure to the hard working people of this country, perhaps you should find another job, or at least tell us which infrastructure the country can't afford anymore, since (you seem to believe) we are no longer a vibrant country...take specific actions (publish lists: Amtrak no longer safe from here to here, etc.) that will allow us peons to avoid getting killed or maimed riding on trains that you were too ignorant to find a way to maintain.
While you are at it, also please imagine what those killed and grievously injured might have added to the life of this country, if they weren't so needlessly derailed.
While you are at it, also please imagine what those killed and grievously injured might have added to the life of this country, if they weren't so needlessly derailed.
9
My Garmin outputs speed limits and road features for a couple hundred dollars.
Add in Dr. Smith's voice from Lost in Space, "Danger will Robinson, Danger" for a dollar more.
For less than the cost of this wreck the same technology could be in the cab of every high speed locomotive on the Northeast corridor.
It would have a tattle tale feature and alert central control immediately over violations.
This cheap and quick.
If it isn't installed the argument next time will be over criminal negligence.
And how high up the management chain the charges reach.
Add in Dr. Smith's voice from Lost in Space, "Danger will Robinson, Danger" for a dollar more.
For less than the cost of this wreck the same technology could be in the cab of every high speed locomotive on the Northeast corridor.
It would have a tattle tale feature and alert central control immediately over violations.
This cheap and quick.
If it isn't installed the argument next time will be over criminal negligence.
And how high up the management chain the charges reach.
2
This is a human tragedy caused, apparently, by human error (engineer was doing 106 mph when the train hit a 50 mph curve).
This is but another in a long line of "Big Government" disasters. "Big Government" has repeatedly failed the American people, but when are "we, the people" going to learn? You don't fix it by throwing money at it.
Amtrak should be self-funded, privately run and kept as far away from bureaucrats and government regulation as possible. If the trains just ran where "we, the people" wanted the service and not the politicians, there would be more money for the remaining services and it might even be efficiently run!!
This is but another in a long line of "Big Government" disasters. "Big Government" has repeatedly failed the American people, but when are "we, the people" going to learn? You don't fix it by throwing money at it.
Amtrak should be self-funded, privately run and kept as far away from bureaucrats and government regulation as possible. If the trains just ran where "we, the people" wanted the service and not the politicians, there would be more money for the remaining services and it might even be efficiently run!!
4
Of course a positive-train-control system could have prevented this crash, but that would involve the government's spending tax-payer money for the public good, and that would be socialism!
7
This is part of the infrastructure problem in this country. Seems there is a safety system that could of prevented this however it was not installed on the sharpest curve in the NE corridor rail system, probable for lack of funding. I feel the US raises lots of money through taxes etc however we spend it wrong at all levels of government. Lets stop giving big business tax brakes, lets stop defending half the globe, spend this money on America. We do not need to raise taxes, just stop giving the money away.
8
No "technology" is needed to prevent this accident. What is needed is old-fashioned training , vigilance and responsibility on the part of the engineer. Period.
The traveling public has the right to expect better.
The traveling public has the right to expect better.
2
Could the primary responsibility for this accident be Amtrak policies?
Why was the train going double the speed limit?
Is there a policy which pressures engineers to keep to unreasonable on-time schedules which caused this engineer to speed up?
Why was the train going double the speed limit?
Is there a policy which pressures engineers to keep to unreasonable on-time schedules which caused this engineer to speed up?
1
Not Mark
I have a theory, and anyone who expands on the idea must quote me, and must give me credit for it. As we technologize more the kind of physical work, even focused work, needed to manage something like a plane, train, car, etc. reduces. This means, like the security guard who now sits for five hours looking at video panels losing his ability to check premises directly and chase vandals and criminals in person, we have workers who are merely sitting or standing gazing at computers and gadgets. And it is easy to fall asleep, to ignore warnings, to get a little lazy or laid back, to forget the details of one's work or the details of certain readings, etc....and suddenly there is an accident!
We either go full way and robotize everything (with some monitoring and limits, or we personalize & humanize everything and remove some of the technology so there is more involvement and more concentration on the part of the workers (including drivers, engineers and pilots...)...and having two people on the job might also reduce unemployment.
We are, at the moment, in the in-between stage where there is little technology...not enough in the way we need it or can be fully ensured by it, and, at the same time, we have too much technology when it comes to having advanced skills.
In that in-between stage one can only expect more of the same.
And, why is only three victims' profile given in most newspapers. Who are the other four victims?
I have a theory, and anyone who expands on the idea must quote me, and must give me credit for it. As we technologize more the kind of physical work, even focused work, needed to manage something like a plane, train, car, etc. reduces. This means, like the security guard who now sits for five hours looking at video panels losing his ability to check premises directly and chase vandals and criminals in person, we have workers who are merely sitting or standing gazing at computers and gadgets. And it is easy to fall asleep, to ignore warnings, to get a little lazy or laid back, to forget the details of one's work or the details of certain readings, etc....and suddenly there is an accident!
We either go full way and robotize everything (with some monitoring and limits, or we personalize & humanize everything and remove some of the technology so there is more involvement and more concentration on the part of the workers (including drivers, engineers and pilots...)...and having two people on the job might also reduce unemployment.
We are, at the moment, in the in-between stage where there is little technology...not enough in the way we need it or can be fully ensured by it, and, at the same time, we have too much technology when it comes to having advanced skills.
In that in-between stage one can only expect more of the same.
And, why is only three victims' profile given in most newspapers. Who are the other four victims?
2
The victims and families of victims of this "accident" need to sue the Congress for not funding obvious safety provisions for our citizens. I believe that many billionaires get obscene tax breaks. Not sure how many of them ride the train?
7
Did you miss the 106 MPH part? more than 50 MPH over the speed limit? Not everything is Congress' fault.
2
Time for trains to go "driverless" like cars do in CA and Zurich, CH. Servo-mechanic programs can be fully debugged before being put into service, while human engineers will always present a higher risk factor with hundreds of lives and hundreds of millions of dollars at stake in legal claims.
If the U.S. is going to be able to construct high-speed train systems like those in Japan, capable of reaching up to 300 m.p.h., then we need to invest in eliminating as many curves as possible in these heavily traveled stretches to make it less likely for such accidents to take place. This would cut down on commuting times making traveling between Washington, D.C. and NYC take less time, thus aiding U.S. economic growth.
If the U.S. is going to be able to construct high-speed train systems like those in Japan, capable of reaching up to 300 m.p.h., then we need to invest in eliminating as many curves as possible in these heavily traveled stretches to make it less likely for such accidents to take place. This would cut down on commuting times making traveling between Washington, D.C. and NYC take less time, thus aiding U.S. economic growth.
what could possibly go wrong?
Let's see now: 106 M. P. H. on a sharp curve and a 7 car train and brakes suddenly applied; sounds like simply physics or mathematics or laws of motion will solve. Oh, and a train engineer who shuts his mouth and lawyer's up. The truth is right around the corner.
8
Perhaps a poll of those in Congress who voted down spending to make our
nation's railroads safe is now in order: Just list those who vetoed spending
on making our infrastructure safe..
List those who would put our people at risk...then just vote them out of office
ASAP...make those who vote NO...on public safety accountable..
nation's railroads safe is now in order: Just list those who vetoed spending
on making our infrastructure safe..
List those who would put our people at risk...then just vote them out of office
ASAP...make those who vote NO...on public safety accountable..
6
The fault is with the personnel. The people who run the train system, at any level, are not doing the jobs they are paid to do. This looks like an attitude problem, and it is not restricted to running railroads. It is endemic, almost epidemic, & has seemed to get worse over the last several decades in the U.S.
People have been indoctrinated by politically-motivated groups, as to their rights to jobs and pay. Just because of the emphasis on idea people deserve jobs and a 'fair' wage, has translated, in peoples' outlooks and attitudes, into having the 'right' not to care enough about doing a good job, about the effects of an idea saying you can keep your job, your job is more to serve you by having it, than to serve anyone else particularly, or the country either.
It is not simply lack of training. It is almost a willful carelessness, that sets in because of the ideas prevalent now as to people's rights to pay and to having jobs. It is part of a general narcissism, and a selfishness too.
It is caused by the very politics that tries to distract us from the real problem, the bad political machinations, and idea its up to management to spend more money, even raise pay, and it's up to them to train them, even at taxpayers' expense, and instill any integrity, above and beyond almost the opposite, that's been happening, namely being instilled by the workers' proponents and thus having a careless and selfish attitude about their jobs.
People have been indoctrinated by politically-motivated groups, as to their rights to jobs and pay. Just because of the emphasis on idea people deserve jobs and a 'fair' wage, has translated, in peoples' outlooks and attitudes, into having the 'right' not to care enough about doing a good job, about the effects of an idea saying you can keep your job, your job is more to serve you by having it, than to serve anyone else particularly, or the country either.
It is not simply lack of training. It is almost a willful carelessness, that sets in because of the ideas prevalent now as to people's rights to pay and to having jobs. It is part of a general narcissism, and a selfishness too.
It is caused by the very politics that tries to distract us from the real problem, the bad political machinations, and idea its up to management to spend more money, even raise pay, and it's up to them to train them, even at taxpayers' expense, and instill any integrity, above and beyond almost the opposite, that's been happening, namely being instilled by the workers' proponents and thus having a careless and selfish attitude about their jobs.
6
The railroad unions have made it impossible for US passenger trains to operate within a legitimate budget. That's why most operate under as a quasi-government entity. All the usual traits associated with unions - the ones which brought down our automobile industry - are to be found in these "businesses" not subject to foreign competition.
Featherbedding, abuse of pensions, absurd work rules - on and on - are among the reasons commercial carriers abandoned these lines years ago. More money spent on Amtrak and the like - see the L.I.R.R. - simply flows to the workers rather than capital improvements. Sure - we'd are love to emulate the Japanese high speed systems - but in Japan the unions don't run the trains - and that has a lot to explain why they are so good. Fix that problem before seeking more money first.
Featherbedding, abuse of pensions, absurd work rules - on and on - are among the reasons commercial carriers abandoned these lines years ago. More money spent on Amtrak and the like - see the L.I.R.R. - simply flows to the workers rather than capital improvements. Sure - we'd are love to emulate the Japanese high speed systems - but in Japan the unions don't run the trains - and that has a lot to explain why they are so good. Fix that problem before seeking more money first.
6
yeah, it's unions's fault. never management, and definitely never Congress, who keeps defunding Amtrak and the maintenance to rest of our infrastructure.
So, a modern rail system with the proper sensors would have kept this from happening. If so, It is one more reason to redirect government spending to the real needs and safety of Americans. Had this been the result of terrorism congress would be shouting and spending billions, trillions, on drones, planes, troops and convert operations to get the 'bad guys'. But since this tragedy is the result of failing or outdated infrastructure and antiquated systems our congress does not care. There are no sound bites. There are no super packs demanding, There are apparently no rich lobbyists for safety. We love to shout and do and march and wave flags in this country, but only when we can fight the bad guys. Time for the American people to wave some flags at congress. What good is a mighty nation if its people are unsafe because of infrastructure. Perhaps we should tax all the private jets, and helicopters that ferry our elites about to pay for some upgrades to keep this from happening again.
11
"Had this been the result of terrorism congress would be shouting and spending billions, trillions"
Good point! Safety and infrastructure do not concern our legislators.
Good point! Safety and infrastructure do not concern our legislators.
Amtrak is accident-free between Los Angeles and San Francisco. That's because there is no through service. Westerners have little reason to support Amtrak funding increases that don't bring service to our part of the country. It seems to me that if Amtrak is basically a Northeastern service and if Northeasterners won't pay for service for us ... You can take it from there.
5
It's of no interest, if the engineer was eventually under influence of any drugs, or just distracted for a few seconds.
The point here is, that this accident is pretty similiar to the 2013 train disaster in spain.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago_de_Compostela_rail_disaster
I'm travelling trains a lot here in Germany, mostly the "ICE" which speeds up to 190mph (300 km/h).
I feel safe, because the technology of active train control (German "LZB" please look at > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linienzugbeeinflussung ) is mandatory for all tracks with a speed > 100mph.
Preventing train desasters will never be 100% possible. But at least the technology to make the ride as sure as the actual available safety systems allow should be mandatory and implemented.
It's a pain that we're writing the year 2015 now, and preventable accidents occur just because the available technology is not used.
Just my opinion, i'm feeling sad for all the insured / dead passengers on the Amtrak train. This horrible accident could've been prevented (like in Spain 2013) if the laws would've been adjusted to the actual level of security.
You may call it "German Angst", i would call it "common sense to use technology to save lives".
The point here is, that this accident is pretty similiar to the 2013 train disaster in spain.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago_de_Compostela_rail_disaster
I'm travelling trains a lot here in Germany, mostly the "ICE" which speeds up to 190mph (300 km/h).
I feel safe, because the technology of active train control (German "LZB" please look at > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linienzugbeeinflussung ) is mandatory for all tracks with a speed > 100mph.
Preventing train desasters will never be 100% possible. But at least the technology to make the ride as sure as the actual available safety systems allow should be mandatory and implemented.
It's a pain that we're writing the year 2015 now, and preventable accidents occur just because the available technology is not used.
Just my opinion, i'm feeling sad for all the insured / dead passengers on the Amtrak train. This horrible accident could've been prevented (like in Spain 2013) if the laws would've been adjusted to the actual level of security.
You may call it "German Angst", i would call it "common sense to use technology to save lives".
11
Yep, definitely a funding problem. Engineer drives train into 50 mph curve at 100+ mph and then slams on the breaks.
The best part of this story is the guy walks without giving an interview or blood as if his responsibility for all the lives in his charge does not carry the reasonable obligation to so.
Like the airline pilot's personal life is protected from disclosing that he has mental problems just before he flies his plane into a mountain.
Liberal mentality at work.
The best part of this story is the guy walks without giving an interview or blood as if his responsibility for all the lives in his charge does not carry the reasonable obligation to so.
Like the airline pilot's personal life is protected from disclosing that he has mental problems just before he flies his plane into a mountain.
Liberal mentality at work.
9
Bob, where is your heart this morning? Liberal or Conservative, Republican or Democrat, the fact on the ground is that seven people were killed and hundreds hurt in a terrifying train crash. Another fact that ought to be beyond partisan divide is that the U.S. has an aging infrastructure. What's up for debate is what /whether Americans want to do something about it. Meanwhile and most immediately, thoughts and prayers to all those riding that train Tuesday evening.
There is technology to help prevent these accidents. There are also engineering improvements to make train cars much safer for passengers, unlike the 30 year old cars used.
Conservative mentality at work -- never spend money on the safety or health of Americans. Reward the 1% with a continual flow of huge tax breaks.
Conservative mentality at work -- never spend money on the safety or health of Americans. Reward the 1% with a continual flow of huge tax breaks.
He did give blood and also his cell phone number. He claimed to not remember what happened or to have an explanation for the crash. The truth is we don't know what happened with the engineer. He could have had a medical issue. He could have been on the phone or texting. We don't know.
The price we all pay
when we neglect our railroads
and they don't run well
when we neglect our railroads
and they don't run well
6
How hauntingly familiar these images are to those of us still grieving for the lives of our loved ones who were taken from us in the Metro North crash of December 2013. Even more haunting is seeing the same story line and conversation. My family had a simple request following the derailment in 2013. Fully implement all the provisions of the Rail Safety Improvement Act of 2008. We learned through our own research that MTA had failed to implement provisions in this act and did so with out consequence. The result of MTA’s failure to screen for and treat sleep disorders took the life of our beloved Jim Lovell. We watched, in horror as the press and public eviscerated the engineer and no one talked about the failure of MTA to implement an Act of Congress. I thought we were citizens of a nation of laws. I had hope that our nations leaders would protect its citizens by following these laws. I had hope that eager journalists would report and spur action when leaders fail to follow laws. With this latest story I have lost that hope. This story will no doubt unfold in a similar manner, no in-depth reporting on the failures of rail officials in implementing federal laws, and all too soon the most of the public will lose interest in this story. Today I am truly ashamed that I am an American. I hold all the victims and their families in pray. I know what you are facing.
49
How terrible to lose a loved one and be left with grtief and questions. However....
"Today I am truly ashamed that I am an American."
You're kidding, I do hope -- this country, with all its great benefits and history, good people and many laws that do help many of us in all sorts of ways? Ashamed?
"Today I am truly ashamed that I am an American."
You're kidding, I do hope -- this country, with all its great benefits and history, good people and many laws that do help many of us in all sorts of ways? Ashamed?
Just another example of how Congress, our "elected officials" are killing us through their negligence. The technology is there to prevent this, and this and other transportation systems need upgrading now, not later. Money is cheap now. It will only cost more later. Does Congress have to be shamed in to doing their job. Well, here is something that could have been avoided, if they had acted responsibly.
12
Let's be real here: Our infrastructure is steadily deteriorating when it ought to be not only maintained but substantially improved if we are to remain a first world country. The commuter rail in Gloucester where I live has to slow to 10 mph to cross a bridge over open water because the bridge is in such disrepair, and there are hundreds of such examples around the country. We need to make significant investments to change this and to do that we need to pay higher taxes, like any other civilized nation. The rest is noise.
64
This accident appears to be shaping up to be a replay of the December 2013 Metro-North Railroad Hudson Line Spuyten Duyvil derailment. Positive Train Control would have prevented it. And a committee in the GOP Congress today votes to cut Amtrak funding.
17
Absolutely correct. Another transportation operator has fallen asleep (remember also the Staten Island Ferry accident ?). Implement Positive Train Control now, implement 21st century selection and management of transportation operators, and sufficiently fund infrastructure regulation, inspection, and improvements.
1
The article seems to avoid totally the question of free will. A train doesn't drive itself at twice the speed limit and if technology is the only way to correctly operate a train, then why employ engineers at all?
13
A better question is why we operate this money losing operation at all. The passenger operation of AMTRAK is subsidized by funds from the general fund. Every ticket is sold at a loss. Hamburgers cost $9 to the passengers while AMTRAK pays $16 to purchase them.
By all means keep CONRAIL since it is needed to supply the Northeast. Trucks could never carry enough to supply New York City and Boston but stop wasting money on the passenger service.
By all means keep CONRAIL since it is needed to supply the Northeast. Trucks could never carry enough to supply New York City and Boston but stop wasting money on the passenger service.
2
more money just allocated to more war
so no money for transportation and infrastructure
too busy making war and killing innocents to take care of our home
so no money for transportation and infrastructure
too busy making war and killing innocents to take care of our home
10
According to the Republicans in Congress we should rely on the "market" to figure out how to fund Amtrak. You know, like how we should be getting church donations to refurbish the rails and buy new rail cars. Because, you know, the government should stay out of the rail business and just focus on the war business.
14
Time for the American public to insist that wealthy US corporations bring back some of the trillions of dollars held overseas to reinvest in the US, and be taxed in the US.
17
We (or at least I) often hear talk about building "high-speed" rail lines in places like Texas and California, along the lines of the wonderful trains in places like France and Japan. Aside from the fact that I have never really believed people in those car-crazy states would actually use these new trains, why should we believe they would be safely operated and maintained if the money isn't available to safely operate and maintain the Amtrak lines already in the northeast? Are those proposed lines in Texas and Califonia to be privately operated, perhaps funded by deep pocketed high-tech high flyers or
hedge fund moguls?
hedge fund moguls?
2
California governor Jerry Brown's "Train To Nowhere" eats up $1 Million a day in subsidies.
2
This shouldn´t happen nowadays with all the technology we have. It looks like the spanish train crash that killed more than 70 people last year.
Rest in peace and less hope security is reinforced in trains
Rest in peace and less hope security is reinforced in trains
2
Unless the train operator has a valid excuse for exceeding the speed limit, like a hear attack or some such thing, he ought to be arrested and prosecuted for criminal homicide.
12
On the same day that the House Appropriations Committee rejected a funding increase for Amtrak this horrific train wreckage occurred.
How ironic **
The decaying infrastructures in this country is in dire need of repairs
so what is being done about it? Nothing. Not a very smart decision.
How ironic **
The decaying infrastructures in this country is in dire need of repairs
so what is being done about it? Nothing. Not a very smart decision.
20
My family is in the rail industry, and I believe that the Northeast Corridor tracks, at least that part from Philly to NYC, are owned and operated by Amtrak.
2
Speeding around a curve was likely human error. I don't understand why the U.S. passenger rail system cannot be automated. Humans should not be at the control of these systems. They should be operated by robots.
3
What was the engineer doing RIGHT BEFORE slamming on the brakes? Why didn't he do anything as the train was gaining speed?
10
Only a few have noted that there may be have scheduling pressures influencing the engineer's choice to exceed the limits for the area. If the engineer alleges that, Amtrak may find it has more critics and lawsuits.
5
Nearly every AMTRAK train runs late, some by hours even on the route from Raleigh to Charlotte, NC. You can make the trip in 3 hours or less by car.
1
What other plausible explanations are there?
---"under the influence"?
---joyriding?
Speeding up to keep to a schedule does seem the most likely cause. Especially because "on-schedule" arrivals/departures is the second most important function of a train. (The first being carrying passengers from place to place.)
---"under the influence"?
---joyriding?
Speeding up to keep to a schedule does seem the most likely cause. Especially because "on-schedule" arrivals/departures is the second most important function of a train. (The first being carrying passengers from place to place.)
The 1% do not need safe trains - so we do not have them.
47
And those that represent them in Congress.
It is not necessary for these types of crashes to occur just because there isn't a full system set up yet for "positive control" of trains. A system that could warn engineers when they are going too fast would be much easier and much simpler to set up and cost far less than the total of ten billion dollars as quoted in NY Times stories today.
How? First, GPS coordinates would feed information to a computerized system onboard the train at all times. A computerized map would be following along, so to speak, with the location of the train and each point of travel would recognize the posted speeds in relation to the train's actual speed. When the train exceeded posted limits, a voice would call out, CHECK SPEED, CHECK SPEED and, if the engineer did not respond, the voice when then say, SLOW DOWN AT ONCE several times. In certain situations, the computer could then be programmed to reduce the speed of the train to a minimum, unless the engineer were given authority to override.
This is not that complicated. It could be created for far less than the 10 billion dollars the news stories quoted as the cost of installing such a system nation wide. In fact, it could probably be put in place across the U.S. for less than 500 million, most likely for less than 250 million.
The current methods being established are intended to take the engineer, the human factor, out of the equation. As a first step, why not create something that would be excellent, leaving aside perfect?
Doug Terry
13
It's time we look at regressive train control...two engineers.
13
"Mr. Sumwalt said positive train control could have prevented the crash."
Faulty Automatic Train Controls resulted in 9 deaths and approximately 80 injuries in the June 2009 Washington, D.C. Metro Red Line Accident.
Faulty Automatic Train Controls resulted in 9 deaths and approximately 80 injuries in the June 2009 Washington, D.C. Metro Red Line Accident.
9
Rest in Peace to those lost and Heal to those that survived
Of cource it had to be a New Yorker from Queens who's the engineer
and why the need for speed with no emergency measures in place?
The federal government holds part of the blame here, AMTRAK trains and most trains operating are still using old equipment and no modern state of the art mechanisms in place to insure Speed reduction and Emergency Halts and so much more
Where is the funding for our railroads in this country? where and WHY NOT?
American Lives mean nothing to the fat cats who sit in Washington
Sure the federal government CHANGE the LAWS
Protect all human life it must be cherished and valued at all costs
SHAME on EVERYONE
Of cource it had to be a New Yorker from Queens who's the engineer
and why the need for speed with no emergency measures in place?
The federal government holds part of the blame here, AMTRAK trains and most trains operating are still using old equipment and no modern state of the art mechanisms in place to insure Speed reduction and Emergency Halts and so much more
Where is the funding for our railroads in this country? where and WHY NOT?
American Lives mean nothing to the fat cats who sit in Washington
Sure the federal government CHANGE the LAWS
Protect all human life it must be cherished and valued at all costs
SHAME on EVERYONE
14
THE FIRST TIME I HEARD 100+ MPH, I THOUGHT I WAS MISTAKEN . . .
...but, it was true. We here in the U. S. not only don't keep up with the early 19th Century infrastructure and keep it safe. We are now falling behind all the industrial nations and some that used to be called part of the 'third world' to lower the tax "burden" for the super wealthy.
Ergo, reactionary forces (e.g., the one-tenth of the "1%") are misleading the lumpen proletariat to vote for right wing forces which will destroy any progress and the U. S. will no longer be part of the 'first world.'
...but, it was true. We here in the U. S. not only don't keep up with the early 19th Century infrastructure and keep it safe. We are now falling behind all the industrial nations and some that used to be called part of the 'third world' to lower the tax "burden" for the super wealthy.
Ergo, reactionary forces (e.g., the one-tenth of the "1%") are misleading the lumpen proletariat to vote for right wing forces which will destroy any progress and the U. S. will no longer be part of the 'first world.'
26
An engineer or train Driver is supposed to drive train. They drive/travel same routes years & years. They know it by heart. They are not in a plane going through thickest of clouds. HE should reduce spped before he reaches a curve or whatever. Negligent drivers driving a train Millions or billions of US Dollars & any technology cannot replace human inefficiency/ negligence. Unless of course he tried to reduce speed but system failed.
9
Lack of funding? Careless politicians? The system? Please.
The train was being driven at twice the mandated speed limit by an obviously careless operator. If I drove my car in that fashion, I would expect the same result and I don't, employing cruise control set below the speed limits. Not every action can be regulated such that any transportation system is entirely safe and independent of human error. Lubitz and Germanwings anyone?
Speed kills and carelessness kills even quicker.
The train was being driven at twice the mandated speed limit by an obviously careless operator. If I drove my car in that fashion, I would expect the same result and I don't, employing cruise control set below the speed limits. Not every action can be regulated such that any transportation system is entirely safe and independent of human error. Lubitz and Germanwings anyone?
Speed kills and carelessness kills even quicker.
17
Reality check given present norm on safety all around no surprising when accidents happen .Look at how cars are inspected only one brake needs to be checked to pass new your state inspection for cars on road. Back in 19080 s usa had great quality work life where everyone shared in responsibility of safety .Now all we have system falling apart seems where good equipment is neglected an abused . PM programs cut to improve profits an returns to top in form of bonus perks. Blame is usally shifted to workers by forcing them to work harder for lest .No wonder we have accidents
5
Partisan politics claims more victims. Feed the war machine but starve America's infrastructure and transportation systems. Old, outdated technology that would be laughable were it not so deadly. The trains in Europe and Asia are exquisite and efficient and new. Way to go lawmakers- you refused to invest in this form of transportation and people are dead and forever injured. Shameful. Both sides.
27
fund the north east corridor period.
12
I'm astonished by the seeming majority of commenters here who are rushing to blame the lack of funding. What about the engineer who was operating the train at over twice the speed limit? What ever happened to personal accountability? I have yet to see a correlation between Amtrak's lack of funding and this particular tragedy.
Yes, there are safety upgrades available, and they should be installed in due time. But, again, it's clear at this point that the train was being operated in a reckless manner.
Yes, there are safety upgrades available, and they should be installed in due time. But, again, it's clear at this point that the train was being operated in a reckless manner.
29
All in due time - like never.
7
In this day and age, when modern trains in first world countries can travel at up to 280 kpm, lack of funding is indeed responsible for having an antiquated 50-mph curve on a track without any kind of speed regulation mechanism on the train. It's pretty clear that most congresspersons and senators have little interest in the lives and safety of those of us who travel by train.
12
I think that is ridiculous. These days there are electronic systems available for all kinds of safety operations but we expect a high speed train run exclusively by the competence of a single engineer? That is the attitude appropriate when steam engines at 50mph max ran
4
It appears that the speed of the train and the sharpness of the turn could very possibly have contributed to or caused the derailment. The statements concerning a late departure may possibly have been a factor in the engineer perhaps trying to make up time. The reluctance to fund our infrastructure and rail service by our Republican representatives in Congress is a disgrace. Positive train controls would have likely prevented this tragedy.
10
Infrastructure? 106 mph has nothing to do with infrastructure
7
Granted the infrastructure is seriously at fault, but why isn't anyone addressing the fact that the driver was going 106 mph in a 50mph zone and on a curve. If he were going 50mph, it's highly unlikely this accident would have happened, despite the poorly maintained rails.
Who on earth was this driver, in what condition was he in, what does he have to say for himself of herself, what kind of training and experience did he/she have, and wasn't he/she at least as much if not more responsible than the state of the rails?
Who on earth was this driver, in what condition was he in, what does he have to say for himself of herself, what kind of training and experience did he/she have, and wasn't he/she at least as much if not more responsible than the state of the rails?
21
Your assumptions are invalid with the information we have. Perhaps the operator had a heart-attack, or stroke? There was a series of highly unusual coincidental occurrences that led to the disaster? The brakes didn't brake? The electronics went out in the cab but the locomotive was still physically functional? I'm not saying the operator isn't partially or wholly responsible for this tragedy; but its a too early to point fingers at the operator. Just because you saw that Denzel movie doesn't mean Hollywood is reality.
2
My first question: 'Why didn't the train have a speed governor?' Every semi-truck I've ever driven during the last 15 years has had one, most limiting the truck to something between 62 and 70 mph.
My guess is that there are no Amtrak routes with speed limits over 70 mph. How do I know? I regularly parallel Amtrak and freight-train routes in my truck, and can't ever recall one running at over 65 mph. Thus, a governor set at 70 mph would have reduced impact speed 36 mph, and undoubtedly cost less than a couple hundred dollars - installed.
My guess is that there are no Amtrak routes with speed limits over 70 mph. How do I know? I regularly parallel Amtrak and freight-train routes in my truck, and can't ever recall one running at over 65 mph. Thus, a governor set at 70 mph would have reduced impact speed 36 mph, and undoubtedly cost less than a couple hundred dollars - installed.
15
Amtrak routinely runs at 100mph along the NE corridor depending on the location.
9
Actually, speeds of up to 150 mph are achievable in certain segments in NJ and MD. NJ Transit routinely runs at 100 mph over the same routes in NJ.
Other countries, France for example, have trains that routinely cruise at 175 mph. I've been on the TGV, zipping past cars on the parallel major highway at 3 times their speed. As much as I have traveled it and as much as I love Amtrak, it is sad to see the cars on I-95 passing you on segments through Philly where the routes are parallel.
Historical factoid: FWIW, not 20 years after the utter devastation of their infrastructure by American bombing and their consumate defeat in WW-II, Japan produced the original 130 mph "bullet train" in time for the 1964 Olympics.
Meanwhile the Republicans cut Amtrak funding as best they can yet again.
Other countries, France for example, have trains that routinely cruise at 175 mph. I've been on the TGV, zipping past cars on the parallel major highway at 3 times their speed. As much as I have traveled it and as much as I love Amtrak, it is sad to see the cars on I-95 passing you on segments through Philly where the routes are parallel.
Historical factoid: FWIW, not 20 years after the utter devastation of their infrastructure by American bombing and their consumate defeat in WW-II, Japan produced the original 130 mph "bullet train" in time for the 1964 Olympics.
Meanwhile the Republicans cut Amtrak funding as best they can yet again.
10
There are portions of this route on which trains regularly reach over 100 mph. The place where the accident occurred isn't one of them.
3
Accidents happen under the best of conditions, BUT lawmakers in the U.S. are hostile to public funding of public transportation. The result will be slower and less safe trains. While we know this train was going twice the maximum speed for this section of the track, we don't yet know why it was going this speed. But we do know that technology exists to prevent this from ever happening and the only thing stopping its implementation is a adequately-funded passenger rail network.
18
I wonder if a robust technology could be employed that did not rely on wayside electronics to limit speed around curves and other places where the train must slow. When I ride Amtrak, my cell phone GPS using Google Maps knows exactly where I am. Another app knows how fast I am moving. This type of technology could be the basis of speed limiting equipment.
Also, the article mentioned that there may have been an audible warning or warning lights in the engineer's cabin. That type of system could be tied into the train's control system to slow the train if the engineer didn't.
Since the Metro North accident in 2013, was caused by a sleeping engineer not slowing on a curve, there needs to be technology to ensure the engineer is awake and alert, as well as systems for slowing trains around curves.
Of course, congress needs to provide adequate funds to allow Amtrak and other passenger rail lines to provide essential safety upgrades.
Airline travel has become so safe and accidents so rare; there is no reason why train travel can't be as safe or safer.
Also, the article mentioned that there may have been an audible warning or warning lights in the engineer's cabin. That type of system could be tied into the train's control system to slow the train if the engineer didn't.
Since the Metro North accident in 2013, was caused by a sleeping engineer not slowing on a curve, there needs to be technology to ensure the engineer is awake and alert, as well as systems for slowing trains around curves.
Of course, congress needs to provide adequate funds to allow Amtrak and other passenger rail lines to provide essential safety upgrades.
Airline travel has become so safe and accidents so rare; there is no reason why train travel can't be as safe or safer.
10
This is a terrible tragedy, and my heart goes out to the victims and their families. What a nightmare to have a seemingly routine trip so suddenly erupt in such horror!
i think there's a lesson to learn, and a compromise to be had here. Republicans say that privatization would improve competition and competitiveness. Democrats say that infrastructure spending is necessary.
Compromise: have the Federal Government fund construction and maintenance of the rails, and private companies run trains on them. That's exactly the kind of public/private partnership which makes our trucks/buses and air travel work so well. You can very often get an air ticket cheaper than a train ticket, though train travel uses a fraction of the fuel.
Not enough votes? Extend the rails to all fifty states, and all 435 Congressional districts. That's what we do for highways.
i think there's a lesson to learn, and a compromise to be had here. Republicans say that privatization would improve competition and competitiveness. Democrats say that infrastructure spending is necessary.
Compromise: have the Federal Government fund construction and maintenance of the rails, and private companies run trains on them. That's exactly the kind of public/private partnership which makes our trucks/buses and air travel work so well. You can very often get an air ticket cheaper than a train ticket, though train travel uses a fraction of the fuel.
Not enough votes? Extend the rails to all fifty states, and all 435 Congressional districts. That's what we do for highways.
6
Our government is too poor to fund what you have in mind, and our private sector is too cautious to do so.
You need a strong AND rich government (think East Asian) to build a high speed rail network.
You need a strong AND rich government (think East Asian) to build a high speed rail network.
Ben, then how did most of Europe manage to build an excellent system?
1
There are likely several corporations who'd jump at the chance to PRIVATIZE the trains which run on the Amtrak system.
This could be why Congress underfunds Amtrak---to set up a situation where a corporate campaign contributor could prey on Amtrak.
This could be why Congress underfunds Amtrak---to set up a situation where a corporate campaign contributor could prey on Amtrak.
Expand safe, high-speed rail service throughout the country. Takes money and commitment.
7
What about accountability? Isn't it the responsibility of the operator that should be really addressed? Was blood testing done to this engineer after the crash? So many mentions in the news about investigative groups and no deeper mention earlier about the engineer.
9
Read the article. It clearly said the engineer gave a blood sample while being treated for his injuries.
We fund wars without any regard for possible fatalities. We defund Amtrak without any regard for possible fatalities.
30
I know that area of Philadelphia well. There's a 50 mph speed limit because there are a number of switches as well as a rather sharp left turn. It's a track alignment that hasn't changed since the 1920s at the most recent. How on earth a supposedly trained engineer could not know about that area is beyond me. Especially since even on the straightaway stretches the maximum speed allowed is considerably below the 102 mph (!) at which that train was traveling, according to the National Transportation Safety Board. The fact that a merely observant occasional passenger - yours truly - seemed to know that area better than the train crew is beyond mind-boggling.
It's things like this that make you wonder if anyone in charge even has a clue these days. And that's the scariest part of this whole sordid mess.
It's things like this that make you wonder if anyone in charge even has a clue these days. And that's the scariest part of this whole sordid mess.
22
Really? This is ridiculous. There was already a similar train accident a year or two ago. Technology has been at its peak where we can track an iPhone and still air crafts go missing. We are talking of the age of self driving cars and trains don't have basic equipment that in an engineering perspective is so damn simple to deploy to prevent such mishaps. How can companies like Amtrak lack common sense or is it cost saving methods to keep people at risk? I for one would never ever travel by train for long distances; its not that air accidents don't happen but because aircraft carriers are better at ensuring safety.
5
The engineer was speeding twice the speed limit. That is probably why it derailed. The Republicans have nothing to do with this crash. I thought the Stimulus Bill was going to fix everything.
8
That's ridiculous- the republicans have everything to do with it. You need funding to put in place the systems that can override operator error. There is a law in place to require it. The republicans refuse to fund it. Period. End of story.
3
Why did you think the stimulus bill was going to fix everything? I never heard that. All I heard was it would spiral the country into a black hole we'd never recover from. I never heard it would fix everything.
I'm really having trouble with this 5 billion dollar system that will reduce the speed of the train. As a ship board engineer 20 years ago I had 90 seconds to answer any engine room alarm. If I didn't acknowledge the alarm in the given time period, the ship, all 850 foot of it, would shut down. On my 30 foot sail boat I have a GPS tied to navigational software that alerts me to arrival at locations I've pre-programmed and I suppose if I wanted, I could get the alarm to trigger an engine shut down....So what's the reason the train's computer isn't tied to a GPS with speed limiting or total shutdown in the event of an out of perimeter operation and why in heavens name does this "system" depend on rail modification when it can be entirely housed in the engine...and you want more money?
12
Yes . . . "what's the reason the train's computer isn't tied to a GPS with speed limiting or total shutdown in the event of an out of perimeter operation and why in heavens name does this "system" depend on rail modification when it can be entirely housed in the engine".
It appears to be under funded, under managed, and under regulated 19th and 20th century standards in the 21st century.
It appears to be under funded, under managed, and under regulated 19th and 20th century standards in the 21st century.
If Amtrak needs more money to operate then the obvious solution is to raise fees in order to create the additional revenue. Those who are in charge of Amtrak could use the airline as a successful business model by implementing increased fares, fuel surcharges, and baggage fees to support additional revenue. It clearly has worked for the airline industry and therefore should also work for rail transportation.
4
Who pays to maintain the airports, roads and harbors...the carriers or us through taxes and infrastructure spending?
1
Amtrak is in a sad condition. Previous owners deferred maintaining the rails and equipment to give stockholders bigger dividends. This lack of concern for safety did not happen just "overnight"; in my personal experience, this was rampant in the early 1950s. On one trip alone, travelling beween Stamford, CT and Northampton, MA, there were two engine breakdowns. That trip took at least 8 hours. We're now stuck with playing "catchup" for over 60 years of "planned obsolesence".
9
what dividends are you talking about? Amtrak has been operated by the Federal government since the Nixon administration. Not only have there been no dividends, we've pumped billions of taxpayer dollars into Amtrak ever since. Every single ticket sold comes with a $50 taxpayer subsidy.
7
Edmund, he's talking about the private railways that ran the NEC before the creation of Amtrak. And as for the $50 taxpayer subsidy, the same is absolutely true for airline tickets and each drive you take on the highway.
4
You don't know what you are talking about. AMTRAK had no "previous owners" or shareholders. It has been government owned and run since its inception.
1
Needless militarism there is always money for, infrastructure money is increasingly lacking.
14
Positive train control.
I think the resistance to the mandate is that,, even though not finished, it is already obsolete.
A 140 Garmin, handheld GPS and a smart phone can do the same thing now with the writing of a new app.
There is no excuse not to have something in place, humans are humans. They will never be perfect. A fully automatic something, like the positive train control? Perhaps. But we could have something that at least alerts the engineer,,,, nearly tomorrow.
I think the resistance to the mandate is that,, even though not finished, it is already obsolete.
A 140 Garmin, handheld GPS and a smart phone can do the same thing now with the writing of a new app.
There is no excuse not to have something in place, humans are humans. They will never be perfect. A fully automatic something, like the positive train control? Perhaps. But we could have something that at least alerts the engineer,,,, nearly tomorrow.
10
How many people here commenting about train disrepair and Congress and taxes drive to work (alone)? But...some of the comments regarding jobs make tons of sense. I hope that out of this terrible wreckage comes a national conversation about rebuilding a national resource. It makes sense. We need to stop focusing on the neighbors and fix our own home.
Condolences to those affected by this accident.
Condolences to those affected by this accident.
8
Something I remember hearing from one of my profs at Cooper Union 50 or more years ago was that a railroad was only as good as its bed, particularly its ties. We've used light weight wooden ties (those things that hold the two rails together) for over 150 years. Look at the rails from the side as a train, particularly one going even moderately fast, passes by. You can see the rails, and, thus, the cars of the train, go up and down as the rails and ties go up and down. This makes walking through cars going fast like walking on a tightrope.
In China I noticed, starting in the early 2000s, that ALL of the wooden ties were being replaced by reinforced concrete ones (weighing almost ten times more). That has been done for almost every mile of rail in that country. When I take an overnight sleeper train - even in the cheap sections, I have no idea whether the train is moving or stopped, the ride is that smooth. The fact that our rails move up and down as trains pass over them wouldn't be important if all of our routes were straight line ones. But they're not!!
Our railroad beds are, as shown once again today, DANGEROUSLY out of date. Yes, the train was going too damn fast, but the extent of the crash wouldn't have been as nearly as serious if the bed had been built of heavy, high quality materials, which didn't move so easily.
This catastrophe would have been less catastrophic if we had spent money on building good railROADS before buying high-speed locomotives.
In China I noticed, starting in the early 2000s, that ALL of the wooden ties were being replaced by reinforced concrete ones (weighing almost ten times more). That has been done for almost every mile of rail in that country. When I take an overnight sleeper train - even in the cheap sections, I have no idea whether the train is moving or stopped, the ride is that smooth. The fact that our rails move up and down as trains pass over them wouldn't be important if all of our routes were straight line ones. But they're not!!
Our railroad beds are, as shown once again today, DANGEROUSLY out of date. Yes, the train was going too damn fast, but the extent of the crash wouldn't have been as nearly as serious if the bed had been built of heavy, high quality materials, which didn't move so easily.
This catastrophe would have been less catastrophic if we had spent money on building good railROADS before buying high-speed locomotives.
110
Correct, and this has been discussed and discussed and discussed...........engineering people know this, construction people know this but people who ride the trains relay on others to "run the railroad".......well folks it hasn't worked.
Stop using the trains tomorrow.....just stop. and while you're at it, elect someone with an engineering degree to Congress instead of another lawyer.............it may break up the log jam.
Stop using the trains tomorrow.....just stop. and while you're at it, elect someone with an engineering degree to Congress instead of another lawyer.............it may break up the log jam.
5
All four mainline tracks where this accident occurred are laid with highly-maintained, continuous-welded rail attached to concrete ties. Even on perfect roadbed, the laws of physics dictate the top speed a train can travel around a curve without centrifugal force causing it to fall over.
3
Anyway too many lawyers and accounts having the say in this country.
The China example is classic. They have by now the longest high speed rail system on this planet. But according to our politicians it does not make sense in this country. 'Only the private sectors can do....' Sigh.
The China example is classic. They have by now the longest high speed rail system on this planet. But according to our politicians it does not make sense in this country. 'Only the private sectors can do....' Sigh.
1
Freight trains on class one railroads have two people in the cab. The newest engines have a computer assisted cruise control that slows the train when approaching curves, fuel savings being the goal.
3
As much as this tragedy turned out to be - Notice the number of black tank cars in the background of the wreckage in the pictures on CNN and the other stations. How close were we to having to deal with the inferno as a result of those tank cars being breached? Is it a good idea to park those tankers so close to that curve? Just a thought.
15
Yes, I saw those also in the coverage, and when traveling Amtrak through that same location I noticed those tank cars and Non-Odorized Liquid Propane Gas tank cars.
So sad for the families of the dead, especially the young midshipman who was such a promising and bright young man. RIP.
5
My own experience travelling from Yamasi, SC to NY by Amtrak in April first week, 2015 --the train speeded up so much that it reached Penn about 35 minutes early even though there must have been poor visibility too as it was snowing badly that night
8
This is what happens when our nation spends money on wars and not on infrastructure.
21
Let's quit wasting tax dollars paying mercenaries in needless wars and rebuilt our infrastructure.
17
This is not important that I would take that Amtrak once a week to Wilmington. I always thought it was much better then driving. Nice ride. But from the statements I read in the news paper the engineer "slammed on the emergency brakes, seconds before train jumped the tracks" makes me wonder if he had only previously driven trains that had automated control of the train? Just wondering? Who is responsible for making sure all trains have this type of control? Anyway, a lot of blame will be going around here. Mostly from the politicians who only want to get re-elected. If this is MTA responsibility, then dig deep.
2
Parts of the Northeast corridor do have positive c control but parts don't. So he should have experienced both on the same route--this one. One wonders, though, about not prioritizing putting it on this curve since it is known as the worst. Crazy it was not there.
1
Also, is slamming on the breaks a contibuting factor in the crash????
3
You just can't blame the infrastructure! The tracks and train were probably just fine. You just can't barrel around a curve on a railroad with a train at twice the recommended speed. It's just plain stupid. Human error for sure.
10
Give me a break. How can there not be automatic speed limit control on a line like this? Human fallibility is inevitable and must be accounted for, but there's no excuse for the lack of infrastructure to do this. The blame lies with politicians and management.
2
It seems like all the blame is going to Amtrak and the government when it should be on one person and one person only. THE CONDUCTOR.
Why is he hitting a turn at 106MPH when the limit is 50?
Gravity will make it difficult to keep that train secured to the tracks.
This is the exact same reason the Metro North train went off the tracks.
Why are they hiring these conductors who are reckless?
Why is he hitting a turn at 106MPH when the limit is 50?
Gravity will make it difficult to keep that train secured to the tracks.
This is the exact same reason the Metro North train went off the tracks.
Why are they hiring these conductors who are reckless?
7
It's the engineer.he will be blamed. No question unless something else malfunctioned. The concern about infrastructure, first of all, is why positive control was not already in place on the curve. And the point about safety systems is that they are designed to be preventive--to compensate for or minimize human error. It is not to say that human error may have played some or most of the fault in this case.
2
The CONDUCTOR takes your ticket...he/she does not operate the train.
1
So our failure to fix our infrastructure is killing us as well as impoverishing labor?
5
Not to sound insensitive but if its 106 mph, its miracle that only 7 died. The families should sue the heck out of Amtrak. This is complete irresponsibility by a big company. Heads should roll because of this. They are nuts to let this happen.
5
It is negligent to run modern trains without readily available simple electronic programs to control speed in sensitive areas. The courts must deliver this message loud and clear through punitive damages so so that no railway will dare offer train passenger service without this basic safety feature.
Enough.
My condolences to the families of this tragedy. May your god hold you and keep you and give you strength.
Enough.
My condolences to the families of this tragedy. May your god hold you and keep you and give you strength.
6
Punitive damages accomplish nothing because they have no effect on the top executives of the offending corporation. The only way to deal with corporate misdeeds is to enact laws which require mandatory prison time for top brass if their corporations are found guilty. In other words, we should assume that they were totally aware of the crimes being committed by their companies. But this will never happen because our elected barnacles are wholly owned by corporations.
How is there not a central control center monitoring the tracks and trains? Why aren't there failsafe systems to override human error?
5
because then you wouldn't need the humans at all. the unions won't stand for that.
2
One of the stories published in the Times today said that it would take up to ten billion dollars to establish a system wide method of "positive control" of all trains in the U.S. to prevent crashes like the one in Philadelphia. (I am unsure if this includes freight as well as passenger trains.) There is no need to spend another 5 billion.
Here is an offer, no joke: I am willing oversee the design and implementation of a system that can prevent 96% of all such crashes at a savings of 4.75 billion dollars. In other words, the cost of the system would be 250 million. This system would use GPS and computerized mapping of train routes to give verbal warnings to engineers to reduce speed. If they did not respond in time, after perhaps 3 warnings, the system could automatically cut the speed. It is not that complicated.
This system could be built with no profit motive.
Engineers and designers for computerized controls often want to take ALL of the human element out of a complex operating system. They don't trust humans, having been trained in numbers, algorithms and hard science. Perfection should not be the goal.
The 96% figure for reduction of crashes mentioned above is arbitrary, but the other 4%, the risk factor, can be taken care of with better training, more careful supervision and, perhaps, yet another, back-up computer system. The back up would monitor the on-going actions of the train engineers and respond when problems were indicated.
This can be done.
Doug Terry
6
"This system could be built with no profit motive." What profit motive? The line is owned by the Federal government and loses money every year subsidizing money losing passenger service. Keep CONRAIL for the freight service and dump AMTRAK.
Had a positive train control system been installed on that section of the track, the accident would not have occurred. And yet the feckless Republican members of Congress in all of their vaulted wisdom and self-importance can't be moved to invest the necessary funds to improve our Amtrak system. This is beyond words shameful -- as we lose more ground to other countries with advanced train systems -- and Congress calls for adding billions more to the defense department. I am sad for the loss lof lives.
11
Faulty Automatic Train Controls resulted in 9 deaths and approximately 80 injuries in the June 2009 Washington, D.C. Metro Red Line Accident.
1
According to another NY Times article, apparently Congress granted the funds to install the positive train control system and mandated it be finished by 2015, but the Association of American Railroads argued in 2012 that they couldn't finish the conversion by 2015. It is not a funding problem, but slow implementation on the part of the railroads.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/14/us/technology-that-could-have-prevente...®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/14/us/technology-that-could-have-prevente...®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
1
Thank you, this should be a "NY Times Picks" comment.
It is fortunate those tank cars were parked south of the accident.
5
it's basic physics, you drive too fast in the curve, the train derails. of course, we can try to find other excuses, blame the budget cut, Republicans or Democrats, too long hours the engineers have to work(do you really know how many days in a month average railroad engineers work-some of the readers will be surprised) or the will of God? how about auto-piloted train? fat chance, it is against the union and we, humanoid, have to control the wheel. spending billions of dollars to modernize Amtrak?, I bet it is as good as winning lottery.
1
A serious country would arrest the engineer, charge him with withholding evidence and keep him in jail until he provided some explanation for what happened. It's very likely that people were murdered here.
7
We are all looking for someone or something to blame for this derailment. While we are faulting the poor infrastructure, Amtrak, the government, Republicans, et al., the fact is that the engineer was driving much too fast. Having safeguards like PTC in place does not negate the need for a responsible human being who adheres to speed limits and safety precautions. (And, obviously, who don't text or talk on cell phones.) Having trains automatically controlled by a switch or system from afar will not eliminate the human element! At least I hope not. My sympathy to the victims and their families.
4
"Having trains automatically controlled by a switch or system from afar will not eliminate the human element"
Simply False.
Sorry.
Simply False.
Sorry.
There have been several derailments leading to deaths attributable to high speed. It just seems the risks for human error are too great to rely solely on the driving skills of the engineer. It would seem that the technology should exist to place some sort of speed monitor sufficiently in advance of a dangerous curve or other area and the train be automatically slowed.
5
It does, and it is required but the rule hasn't been enforced because of the expense.
It seems too kind however to ascribe this to "human error" when a trained engineer goes 106 mph in a 50 mph zone. Poor training perhaps, poor supervision maybe but negligence bordering and malfeasance for sure.
It seems too kind however to ascribe this to "human error" when a trained engineer goes 106 mph in a 50 mph zone. Poor training perhaps, poor supervision maybe but negligence bordering and malfeasance for sure.
3
Not sure any amount of track maintenance would have mattered at double the speed limit.
3
“When you are depending entirely on a human being, the engineer in this case, then there is an opening for a human error and a tragedy like this one. "
Which just demonstrates the insanity of not moving to driverless cars as quickly as we possibly can.
Which just demonstrates the insanity of not moving to driverless cars as quickly as we possibly can.
1
Every major advance in railroad safety has come after first being resisted as "too expensive", followed by a disaster involving loss of life.
4
When I fly, I always roll my eyes re seat belts' efficacy in protecting me in the
event of a crash.
But I've wondered for years about the absence of seat belts on trains and buses -- even school buses, right? -- where seat belts could keep at least keep passengers from bouncing off the walls.
event of a crash.
But I've wondered for years about the absence of seat belts on trains and buses -- even school buses, right? -- where seat belts could keep at least keep passengers from bouncing off the walls.
6
I've seen cabin crew not wearing seatbelts bounce off the ceiling in the cabin of a passenger airliner during turbulence. Not to roll your eyes about.
1
Seat belts are worn in vehicles where a life threatening event could happen at any time. I think you'd have to log a million miles on a train before the probability danger would catch up to you.
When such a completely avoidable accident occurs, I am always reminded that such completely avoidable accidents seem to be, in fact, unavoidable and I am reminded of what Thoreau wrote in 1854: "Men have an indistinct notion that if they keep up this activity of joint stocks and spades long enough all at length will ride somewhere, in next to no time, and for nothing; but though a crowd rushes to the depot, and the conductor shouts "All aboard!" when the smoke is blown away and the vapor condensed, it will be perceived that a few are riding, but the rest are run over, - and it will be called, and will be, "A melancholy accident."
The infrastructure in this country is antiquated and disgraceful.
Bridges, trains, highways; streets; sidewalks, all need significant investment, not the patchwork spending we let local, state and federal governments get away with. Europe and Japan have bullet trains. We have creaking old engines on the Northeast corridor. Amtrak should be investing in safety and engineering instead of cushy business class and club cars. As citizens and voters we should insist that our governments ensure passenger, pedestrian and vehicle and airline safety with better infrastructure. I called my Congressman today because I regularly travel on Amtrak along the Northeast corridor.
Bridges, trains, highways; streets; sidewalks, all need significant investment, not the patchwork spending we let local, state and federal governments get away with. Europe and Japan have bullet trains. We have creaking old engines on the Northeast corridor. Amtrak should be investing in safety and engineering instead of cushy business class and club cars. As citizens and voters we should insist that our governments ensure passenger, pedestrian and vehicle and airline safety with better infrastructure. I called my Congressman today because I regularly travel on Amtrak along the Northeast corridor.
18
Um.. can you read? The train was speeding! This was not and infrastructure failure.
4
Unfortunately, my Congressman is Darrell Issa. Infrastructure spending is not even on his radar.
As usual, a rush to conclude fault here and there. Let the NTSB do its work and then speak out. But is has to be said that our passenger rail system is a joke, a part of our exceptional-ism, only the wrong way. An Amtrak train passes through my town every day. It is old, uses mismatched cars and engines, an embarrassment, and dribbles through at laughable speed. It reminds me of a documentary I saw in the UK some years ago about old Soviet railroads and the decay of infrastructure in that other exceptional union. But nothing will improve in this one until some already wealthy individual and friends can make yet more unearned cash from the idea.
5
The train had speed limiting equipment installed. One accident cause that is happening more often is when operators, in many industries, trust computers/safety equipment over their own good sense. Could it be that the driver was expecting the train to take care of it? Many people no longer look out for trouble in our increasing "safe" society.
The speed limiting equipment, per the Times, has to be in place on both train and tracks. It was only on the train.
1
Yes, exactly. The driver could possibly have been expecting it to be taken care of. Safety systems aren't always set up to tell you when they aren't in use.
As with everything in America lately (perhaps since forever ago but in my 70 years including the 60s, Vietnam and the Civil Rights upheavals) I don't remember the instant political polarization on everything that happens here, no matter what it is, into issues between "Red" and "Blue." Red used to stand for the Communist USSR and everything we feared when I was in college. I doubt either Republicans or Democrats would have been using it to identify today's Republican Party. Yes there were upheavals and issues; Democratic Convention riots, Kennedy shot dead, Bobby killed, MLK ambushed, Vietnam, the Draft, segregation, bussing, scandal, Watergate but they were not classed into political blame games as they always are now.
If the Nepal earthquake had happened in the ski resorts of Colorado we would by now be concentrating on politicizing both its causes (fracking, climate change, forest management, water management and all the rest) rather than working together to prepare for the future.
Give the NTSB a chance people! And then lets start looking at what it takes to fix this mess we seem to have in infrastructure or training or whatever led to this and other train and other national tragedies. If it requires technology or training that we have available to get it fixed, by God, Congress better make sure they fund it and then the regulators, the businesses and the rest of us better make sure it happens. Otherwise this country is a bunch of bluebloods with bloody red noses.
If the Nepal earthquake had happened in the ski resorts of Colorado we would by now be concentrating on politicizing both its causes (fracking, climate change, forest management, water management and all the rest) rather than working together to prepare for the future.
Give the NTSB a chance people! And then lets start looking at what it takes to fix this mess we seem to have in infrastructure or training or whatever led to this and other train and other national tragedies. If it requires technology or training that we have available to get it fixed, by God, Congress better make sure they fund it and then the regulators, the businesses and the rest of us better make sure it happens. Otherwise this country is a bunch of bluebloods with bloody red noses.
13
7 persons killed and more then 200 injured. This is very sad. At the end, I do not hope that this is the fault of a human. Luckily the National Transportation Safety Board must have good experts which can conclude the reason of this terrifying crash. If the maximum speed limit is 50 mph in that curve and the train was really going 106 mph, the company that owned the train will be in quite large problems. Regards, Hiranjgarbh K K Missier
3
It's all about money. How much money are these lost lives worth? Why did Congress mandate this positive train control and yet provide insufficient funding for the execution of the law.
"Railroads are under a congressional mandate to install the system on passenger routes and major freight lines by the end of the year, but they are seeking an extension because of the cost and complexity of the work." -NYTimes
"Railroads are under a congressional mandate to install the system on passenger routes and major freight lines by the end of the year, but they are seeking an extension because of the cost and complexity of the work." -NYTimes
10
NO federal funding was provided for implementing this hardware. It was up to the individual companies regardless of size to foot the bill for PTC.
Why not make the users pay for improving the tracks and train.
3
Why not make users pay for the highways? Oh - you are in LA, so that would never happen. We need more efficient ways to move freight and people around this nation, better ways that vehicles that depend on fossil fuels - that means more mass transit programs, more trains. The question is not "who pays" - the real question is "why have we not paid more attention and federal programs to our rail system until now?" The answer lies in the lobbyists, and those who fund them.... big oil lobbyists have ruled Washington for too long, it's long past time for infrastructure to be funded better than cronies' bank accounts.
2
I was just driving a road with a 50 mph speed limit. If I was going twice that:
1. I would certainly know it.
2. I would know it was wild and dangerous.
3. If I didn't know either 1 or 2, I would be distracted or impaired.
1. I would certainly know it.
2. I would know it was wild and dangerous.
3. If I didn't know either 1 or 2, I would be distracted or impaired.
14
If you are a train driver of a rail system where the monthly on-time percentage is public knowledge, like on the Long Island Railroad, then you might speed up to "make up the time" when the train you are driving is delayed.
106 mph on US infrastructure. What could go wrong?
7
Any loss of life is tragic. However, this is a sensational story that leaves one to believe that people are dying in scores of train accidents, and that train deaths are an epidemic. This is completely wrong. In is helpful to keep in mind just how incredibly safe train travel is compared to automobile travel. For example, 30 people every year die just on the NJ turnpike in auto accidents. 38,000 die annually in the U.S. in auto accidents. Yesterday, 4 people died in relatively rare event in the U.S. - a passenger train wreck. Passenger train travel in the U.S. is extremely safe when compared to almost all other modes of transportation. That should be reported too.
9
I find it remarkable that on planes you are forced to wear seatbelts until the plane completely stops at the terminal but you can ride on the NYC trains or Amtrak and be bounced around continually and even stand up through curving track at high speed and not be required to wear a seat belt.
8
You want seatbelts on the subway?
1
This just shows how dated the trains are in this country. Traveling at more than 100 MPH leads to train derailment? China, a third world country, has trains that travel at 300 MPH. When will we get our act together, and our wallets together and build a modern, truly high speed rail system in this country that won't fly off the tracks at 100MPH?
23
The train was going through a curve; i think even trains in china going through a curve at 106mph will run into trouble.
1
No, China has modern high speed rail. They take curves at 200+ MPH no problem. Japan's Shinkansen bullet trains only slow down a tiny bit around large curves, but still never goes slower than 180MPH.
So the train was going 100mph and there should be "systems" in place to govern the speed and prevent such accidents. I thought the "system" was the engineer, who ideally would know the route, the speed limits, track conditions, etc. This is clearly a case of negligence by the engineer, but we can't blame a person for such a tragedy. Its the lack of "investment", heartless politicians not spending enough money, the State not taking control through regulation or the need for some magical technological feature to protect us from harm. The accident is a terrible loss of life with significant personal and economic consequences for passengers, family members, associates and commuters. I may be simple minded, but how can the driver not be the one to blame? Attentive, qualified engineers have guided this train safely for years without incident until now.
8
Human error exists and just saying someone was negligent (if the engineer was negligent), isn't the end of the story. The idea is to put systems in place to minimize human error and minimize the result of human error. Much of our train technology in the US is more than 100 years old. Why can't we join the 21st century? Take a guess.
2
This accident was caused by excess speed, not infrastructure problems, as so many commenters have concluded. This was engineer error.
Given today's technology, the truth is these trains no longer need an engineer. They could be run from a remote location, using GPS to control speeds as the train moves through the system. This approach would be both cheaper and safer--why are we not using it?
Only 258 passengers spread over 6 cars? That wasn't a full load, was it.
If Amtrak can't develop a forward-looking, modern vision, we should just abolish it and save all the wasted subsidies.
Given today's technology, the truth is these trains no longer need an engineer. They could be run from a remote location, using GPS to control speeds as the train moves through the system. This approach would be both cheaper and safer--why are we not using it?
Only 258 passengers spread over 6 cars? That wasn't a full load, was it.
If Amtrak can't develop a forward-looking, modern vision, we should just abolish it and save all the wasted subsidies.
6
You mean like all the wasted subsidies that keep gasoline at $3/gal instead of $15/gal? Yes, I agree. Let's get rid of ALL wasteful subsidies.
BTW, the Northeast Corridor where this accident occurred makes money, and both the Shinkansen and the TGV have human engineers.
BTW, the Northeast Corridor where this accident occurred makes money, and both the Shinkansen and the TGV have human engineers.
1
how much does Amtrak profit from the NE Corridor? are you just looking at annual operating expense versus revenue, or are including the capital costs as well? i'm fine with shutting down all of Amtrak but the NE Corridor, if it means that the taxpayers in the rest of the country will finally stop subsidizing the New Englander's transportation choices. the train fares need to fully cover the costs of building, maintaining and operating the railroad.
The subsidies for highways are far less than you imagine, because they are funded by user fees, the state and federal gasoline taxes. A tremendous portion of the highway trust fund has been diverted to mass transit over the years, largely benefiting just six cities. If we dedicate all the gas tax revenue to highways as we should, the current gas tax is nearly sufficient.
Just because another system uses human engineers doesn't make them mandatory. What purpose will they serve?
The subsidies for highways are far less than you imagine, because they are funded by user fees, the state and federal gasoline taxes. A tremendous portion of the highway trust fund has been diverted to mass transit over the years, largely benefiting just six cities. If we dedicate all the gas tax revenue to highways as we should, the current gas tax is nearly sufficient.
Just because another system uses human engineers doesn't make them mandatory. What purpose will they serve?
1
That we do not have the sort of train transport system Japan has is a severe lack in infrastructure.
5
If self-driving cars are already hitting the road, shouldn't self-driving trains have already hit the rails?
5
Why do we need to spend $10B on something a conductor can do and is already supposed to do????
3
Conductors punch the tickets. Engineers drive the trains.
Why spend any money to put in blind spot detectors, rear facing cameras or even mirrors for that matter in cars? Isn't the driver supposed to be driving?
Why spend any money to put in blind spot detectors, rear facing cameras or even mirrors for that matter in cars? Isn't the driver supposed to be driving?
1
Good point; it would be cheaper to require 2 engineers in each train, and a giant alarm clock.
Having retired from the railroad industry after thirty years of service. I can tell you there is technology that would have prevented this accident. It would have also prevented the Metro North accident two years ago. Its called Positive Train Control. The old saying us you get what you pay for.is so true. When this news become old and the cameras are somewhere else we as usual will go back to ride at your own risk. We would rather build F 35 fighters for billions of dollars than make our railroads world class. The technology is out there to slow a speeding train and to stop an out of control train. Guess it’s no profit in it.
38
Much as the airline industry has not upgraded to an all seeing system as per airplane accidents (thought he tech is there), so has
AMTRAK not invested in even minimal safety either. If private companies can put out 'smart cars' with active accident prevention, how much easier technologically and cheaper (like a factor of 100 to 1000) when the vehicle is the ONLY ONE on the TRACK by using cheap GPS plus 'smart' technology to enforce proper speeds limits. This is a no brainer. I hope the lawsuits will cost a multiple of what it would cost to put in a proper safety system, that is the ONLY language that will be understood. Hope the plaintiffs attorneys are listening!
AMTRAK not invested in even minimal safety either. If private companies can put out 'smart cars' with active accident prevention, how much easier technologically and cheaper (like a factor of 100 to 1000) when the vehicle is the ONLY ONE on the TRACK by using cheap GPS plus 'smart' technology to enforce proper speeds limits. This is a no brainer. I hope the lawsuits will cost a multiple of what it would cost to put in a proper safety system, that is the ONLY language that will be understood. Hope the plaintiffs attorneys are listening!
8
The House cut the Amtrak budget today. Evidently Republicans do not ride trains. Amtrak should change the title of engineer to chauffeur to entice Republican ridership.
34
FIRST RESPONDERS ARE TO BE SALUTED! They are a ray of hope in the depths of tragedy! God help all who experienced this tragedy.
17
As a retired railroad employee, I am concerned about the major damage to the first car in the Amtrak train that derailed in Philadelphia. That car is probably where most of the fatalities occurred. Passenger cars in the United States are built to withstand major crash forces, and the standards here are much higher than on most European high speed lines, mostly because our trains have to share tracks with freight trains.
6
My $150 Garmin GPS tells me the speed limit of the road I am on. You tell me that the technology does not exist for the same on a train with a feedback governor to regulate train speed. Come ON. What kind of learning curve do we need before we have to keep hearing ' well we can learn from this accident'.
13
Instead of spending billions of dollars to prop up repressive regimes throughout the world (such as in Israel), the government should devote more resources to ensure that engineers have the proper skills and training to ensure that they can operate a train safely and not jeopardize the lives of innocent passengers by travelling at excessive speed.
12
I'm sure unions would really go for automation of their jobs - they have usually been so receptive to it in the past...
Out here, BART is completely automated - the motormen literally sit there and open and close the doors, the train is driven by computer. Doesn't stop the unions from claiming that motormen still have to be put on every train (at well above six-figure salaries) and read the paper while the train drives itself.
Out here, BART is completely automated - the motormen literally sit there and open and close the doors, the train is driven by computer. Doesn't stop the unions from claiming that motormen still have to be put on every train (at well above six-figure salaries) and read the paper while the train drives itself.
8
The railway unions stopped the country from running maglev trains so they can keep their jobs. So Japan and Germany embraced maglev trains long ago and we are still debating what to do with our railway safety decades later. How much more damage can we sustain to keep these jobs?
3
I may be mistaken since I've never ridden the BART system from end to end on every line, but isn't the entire system isolated, either underground or on platforms high above street level? If the system never crosses active intersections, there's little need for emergency human intervention. Not really a valid comparison, IMO.
Read about the accident several years ago in which the automated system malfunctioned and passengers died. You need a human as well as automated features.
2
One year after the Amtrak crash in Riverdale where the conductor took a 90-degree curve at 90 mph... don't these people ever learn?
15
That engineer had been texting prior to the Chatsworth accident, if memory serves.
4
Do *we* ever learn? If we voted into office people who take our safety as seriously as the financial well-being of the 1%, we would have positive train control, which, as the article states, would have prevented not only this accident but the one in Riverdale.
4
IF the engineer gets bored going long distance, the many distracting smart phones and i-whatever gadgets won't help enhance transportation safety on the highway and railway. I think we will need an autonomous driving system for trains with a human engineer who can override the computer system. And, all luggage needs to be tied down to the floor.
I would like to correct mayor Michael Nutter when he said we have not experienced anything like this in modern times. In 2008 a Metrolink train collided into a freight train in Chatsworth, Ca, near my home. Both were traveling over 40mph. There were 25 deaths and many seriously injured, with over 200 passengers onboard. I am sure these two tragedies share many similarities.
4
One I would bet they share is a distracted operator, going fast enough for a straight stretch of track with no obstructions, but not for a curve.
2
Amtrak has been writing checks it can't cash for over a decade. Now it's going to be writing a whole lot of them, putting itself into bankruptcy.
Those responsible must be held criminally accountable too.
Those responsible must be held criminally accountable too.
5
While the root cause won't be know for some time, the passenger train system in the US is clearly broken. Unless it was sabotage, an accident caused by human error or mechanical / infrastructure issues is a process failure. One only needs to visit Japan, and review it's safety record, to understand this. They have committed and organized their infrastructure, and created a robust process to support it; the result is a high speed train network that carries hundreds of millions of people annually at world-class speed and punctuality, with zero fatalities in 50 years. The US needs to decided what system it wants, and plan accordingly. This requires long-term planning, so unfortunately the chances are small this will be done. So, Amtrak will probably limp along for another 20 years in its present form...sigh.
12
Such a sad situation, and from the early reports on train speed, a needless tragedy. What can be done to prevent disasters such as this in the future? Controls to prevent speeding on curves or other speed restricted stretches of track? Better tracks in general so higher speeds can be safely achieved?
For passengers, what about seat belts? I wear seat belts on buses; was glad I had one on when a bus I was on was in an accident on a highway.
What about luggage?I find it astounding how many heavy big bags passengers bring on trains and stow on board; these all go flying and turn into dangerous projectiles in an accident. Perhaps either more restrictions on size, weight and kind of bags are needed, locking overhead cabins provided or? But I shudder to think of someones heavy hard sided suitcase flying at me.
And above all, I wish we put adequate funding into our trains and their infrastructure. Traveling over 200 mph in Europe on their frequent, comfortable trains, and then taking Amtrak, which lumbers along, and here in VT runs once/day each direction, is a disappointment. Glad to make it safely to my destination; indeed grateful for that, but sure wish we were willing to invest in our mass transit.
For passengers, what about seat belts? I wear seat belts on buses; was glad I had one on when a bus I was on was in an accident on a highway.
What about luggage?I find it astounding how many heavy big bags passengers bring on trains and stow on board; these all go flying and turn into dangerous projectiles in an accident. Perhaps either more restrictions on size, weight and kind of bags are needed, locking overhead cabins provided or? But I shudder to think of someones heavy hard sided suitcase flying at me.
And above all, I wish we put adequate funding into our trains and their infrastructure. Traveling over 200 mph in Europe on their frequent, comfortable trains, and then taking Amtrak, which lumbers along, and here in VT runs once/day each direction, is a disappointment. Glad to make it safely to my destination; indeed grateful for that, but sure wish we were willing to invest in our mass transit.
12
This is a terrible accident.
When Americans want great trains, and tell their representatives they do, they'll likely get them.
In the interim, the government will continue to subsidize those industries and demographics with the best lobbyists. Think Big Oil, the .1%, airports, etc. You know the list.
It's how politics works in this country. Turns out money can buy you love.
When Americans want great trains, and tell their representatives they do, they'll likely get them.
In the interim, the government will continue to subsidize those industries and demographics with the best lobbyists. Think Big Oil, the .1%, airports, etc. You know the list.
It's how politics works in this country. Turns out money can buy you love.
13
My thoughts are with the families of the injured and dead.
Let's leave aside the politics.
106 MPH in a 50 MPH zone? Seriously? How is that even possible?
Each one of us needs to be aware of the simple fact that our actions have consequences and act responsibly.
Let's leave aside the politics.
106 MPH in a 50 MPH zone? Seriously? How is that even possible?
Each one of us needs to be aware of the simple fact that our actions have consequences and act responsibly.
16
There's a lot of talk about infrastructure and how decrepit Amtrak is, and that is definitely warranted, but the question that begs to be answered is this: "why exactly was this train going that speed at that time?"
I suspect it was running behind schedule and the conductor did something massively stupid to try and catch up on time.
I suspect it was running behind schedule and the conductor did something massively stupid to try and catch up on time.
7
I would look into the sources of pressure that would make a conductor feel compelled to do so.
1
Why is it that we can't just add another engineer to the train crew. With two engineers in the cab, the likelihood of inattention to speed limit signs and light signals would be substantially lessened. Why are the train companies allowed to operate these trains with only one person in control? We don't need expensive new technology, just another crewman to help with the work load.
3
And the time between New York and Washington will remain the same.
Having just this morning taken the 6:25 AVE high-speed train from Toledo to Madrid to then go on to the airport (scheduled time of trip 32 minutes - we arrived 2 minutes early), I couldn't help comment to my wife about the contrast between our pathetic Acela, which we misnomer as high-speed, and the nation wide system that a supposedly poor country such as Spain has.
Of course it takes money! But we insist on having the cheapest gasoline of any country in the developed world (roughly half of what it costs Spaniards). How long will we stubbornly insist on having a third world land transportation system? The funding is staring us in the eye!
Of course it takes money! But we insist on having the cheapest gasoline of any country in the developed world (roughly half of what it costs Spaniards). How long will we stubbornly insist on having a third world land transportation system? The funding is staring us in the eye!
21
There was recently a derailment of a Spanish high-speed train due to the same cause - excessive speed on a tight curve where a speed restriction is normally in effect.
I believe that the majority of such horrendous and tragic train accidents are because of human "error" - or rather unbelievably irresponsible acts, meaning that the conductor was either napping, drunk, texting or just feeling adventurous by wanting to race a bit and see how it feels. If you compare it to car accidents and its cause, there is a similarity: speeding, drunk driving, texting or chatting on the phone. It might very well be that Amtrak needs an overhaul (am sure of it) but it is important to raise awareness on all other levels as well.
5
I just took a train from Paris to Le Mans, France. 209 kilometers, 55 minutes of a smooth, quiet, comfortable ride. No question that our infrastructure doesn't measure up. That being said, it seems that here the engineer must be at fault. If the road is designed for 50 miles per hour and I drive 106, is it the road's fault of I crash?
7
Speeding? I've taken that specific train, one of the last of the day, often, and have noticed that it goes at a pretty good clip and is rarely late, sometimes even early, unlike Amtrak operations more generally. Without prejudice to the present inquiry, I suspect the driver was at least subconsciously in a hurry to get home, "heading for the barn," as they used to say. I notice it often on evening trains and subways.
6
While Google is busy developing cars and trucks that drive themselves on busy highways and streets, why not focus instead on replacing incompetent and negligent and very well paid train engineers who are busy or distracted from the responsibility of transporting hundreds of innocent passengers? This accident is a travesty and the engineer, if negligent, should be charged with murder.
8
Our trains are horrible. Our roads are horrible. Our airports are horrible.
I am starting to see a trend here.
I am starting to see a trend here.
30
If I drove my car 100 mph in a 50 mph zone and killed seven people I'd be looking at some serious prison time. This is the second time in as many years that a train driver killed people by speeding on a dangerous curve.
If the driver had medical problems fire Amtrak management for having inadequate medical screening - it should be no less rigorous as that for pilots. If it's the drivers fault send him to prison as a warning to others.
If the driver had medical problems fire Amtrak management for having inadequate medical screening - it should be no less rigorous as that for pilots. If it's the drivers fault send him to prison as a warning to others.
12
If, if & if. Take a deep breath & wait for the results of the investigation to be completed.
5
What don't you understand about 106 mph in a 50 mph zone?
1
The current version of this article, as of this writing, has the train "black box(es)" reporting the speed as 106mph when the recording stops, just before the crash. The article also reports the recommended speed (limit) as being either 50mph or 70mph. If that is accurate, I'm with "Michael S".
Also, Google and others are reportedly testing self-driving cars. Controlling an auto has to be more of a challenge than controlling a train, since there's no track for the auto to follow, and the software has to figure out where the road is.
Get the humans out of the control loop on trains, ASAP...
Also, Google and others are reportedly testing self-driving cars. Controlling an auto has to be more of a challenge than controlling a train, since there's no track for the auto to follow, and the software has to figure out where the road is.
Get the humans out of the control loop on trains, ASAP...
1
I have found that traveling by train from DC to Boston extremely unpleasant. The only consolation being that one doesn't have to go through the hassle of long security lines and delayed flights. Amtrak reflects the very poor state of infrastructure in the USA. By contrast travel by train in Europe or Japan is a pleasant experience. Government needs to help Amtrak rehabilitate the rail lines by guaranteeing long term bonds to finance the investment. But it is also clear that Amtrak as a company needs significant operational improvement. Management needs to be made accountable. It is extremely surprising that the train was traveling supposedly at twice the safe speed for that section of track and no warning signals were recorded by the control office. There is plenty of technology to warn controllers when a train driver is exceeding the speed limit and Amtrak should be compelled to instal these without further delay. The investigation into this accident should be swift and if the train driver is found to be at fault, the punishment should be both severe and quick.
11
Spain had a similar accident two years ago with its high speed rail. Operator drove the train too fast through a turn. Four years ago, a high speed train accident in China killed 40. The head of the railroad was put to death. People who argue that Europe or Asia have better infrastructure than the US are misinformed.
4
I have: high speed from Bruges to Paris, high speed from Madrid to Lisbon and high speed from Beijing to Shanghai. What is your point? "Foreign rides"?!!
I suggest you take the shinkansen from Tokyo to Osaka and repeat your last sentence after that experience.
This ridiculous in the 21st century. A college senior project could easily make a pendulum governor that could automatically slow down trains going around curves, if the train is going too fast, producing centrifugal force to enact a control to slow down the train. This is not rocket science.
10
By the time the train has already entered a turn, safe braking becomes quite a complicated engineering problem. Automated braking like you describe would be as likely to exacerbate the problem as to correct it.
Braking by sensing centrifugal force wouldn't take effect until the train is actually IN the curve, and then additional time would be required for the deceleration. A better idea would be a wayside device that would actuate a sensor on the locomotive BEFORE the curve.
So what does THAT have to do with "not enough" taxpayer's money going to Amtrak?
2
I'm pretty sure that technology can provide a way to automatically slow down trains or prevent trains from going too fast.
1
The "conservative" argument (with allusion to Saint Ronald): "Who needs federal oversight? Let railroads be railroads!"
8
Yes, everything government does works so well that you think a government bureaucrat will make your life a paradise. So you believe you need an agency that will oversee and agency that will oversee agency? Brilliant!!!!!
2
Many comments point to our government - (which is barely able to function) - which has led to AMTRAK not having the money to install safe guards which might have prevented the engineer from speeding. BUT, have all of you forgotten just how these clowns made it into government? Yes, that is correct - we elected them! You, me, all of us! We have only ourselves to blame for the people (I use the term loosely) who make the decisions. And yes, Koch and associates certainly helped - a great deal. Irene
19
Is there no way to mechanically cap the speed? Does this train ever have to go over 100 mph. (or significantly less) on its route?
3
Yes, we do need higher speed rail. But positive control should have been on this curve. In Europe and China, there are much faster trains but we have not invested in them and the needed track and other systems. We are so far behind.
1
In the age of self-driving cars, a simple system that limits speed for trains has not yet been implemented?
5
So frustrating.
Congress could be creating jobs while simultaneously protecting public safety by allocating sorely needed funds devoted to improving public (transportation) infrastructure.
The derailment location, situated at the sharpest turn in the Amtrak route, surely was in need of the positive train control safety system described in this article.
Will the people's representatives ever be proactive instead of reactive. Time to stop preventable death and injury, while putting more Americans to work.
Congress could be creating jobs while simultaneously protecting public safety by allocating sorely needed funds devoted to improving public (transportation) infrastructure.
The derailment location, situated at the sharpest turn in the Amtrak route, surely was in need of the positive train control safety system described in this article.
Will the people's representatives ever be proactive instead of reactive. Time to stop preventable death and injury, while putting more Americans to work.
7
I have not heard any news on this issue, but I am sure the NTSB will look into it. Modern locomotives have computerized controls that produce greater energy efficiency and reduce wheel slippage. The computerized controls on some automobiles have malfunctioned and caused some accidents. There is some possibility, I suppose, that the locomotive's computer controls could have contributed to the accident.
The House Appropriations Committee just voted against an amendment to increase funding for Amtrak. Clearly the specifics of the horrible accident in Philadelphia have yet to be sorted out but it's clear that the majority party in Congress could give a hoot about this tragedy. What is obvious is that the the state of our national rail system is abysmal. This most recent reminder is scary, perhaps too scary for this weekly Amtrak commuter. My weekly roundtrip from Boston to New York is frequently punctuated by equipment failures, inordinate delays, often filthy restrooms, and late arrivals. The underfunding of what should be a national treasure is unacceptable. It's clear to me that the underlying narrative of those who wish to see Amtrak disappear is to make it so unpleasant to travel that there will be little objection to its disappearance and replacement by a private, for profit entity. Many of us depend on Amtrak and would like nothing more than dependable, fast, safe, and clean trains.
10
Why don't these trains have two engineers, like planes have a pilot and a co-pilot?
3
Who is going to pay for two engineers, when Congress keeps cutting Amtrak's funding?
The Republicans on the House Appropriations Committee just voted to cut Amtrak's funding again. President Obama had asked for $2.5 billion; they instead voted to cut it by $251 million to $1.1 billion. See:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/05/13/us/ap-us-travel-congress-amtr...
The Republicans on the House Appropriations Committee just voted to cut Amtrak's funding again. President Obama had asked for $2.5 billion; they instead voted to cut it by $251 million to $1.1 billion. See:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/05/13/us/ap-us-travel-congress-amtr...
2
One-person crews grew out of a desire to cut costs.
1
I believe in the past some trains did.
CNN and other news outlets ( including this one ) ought to be ashamed of themselves for citing the speed before the derailment occurred.
I just watched the NTSB press conference and at no point was it claimed that the train was going 100+ mph in a 50 mph zone. But this doesn't freak people out enough, so the press runs the story that the train was going 100+ mph before the derailment.
Without a detailed analysis of how fast the train was going at the moment of derailment, reporting how fast it was going before that point is intentionally misleading.
Why does the Times need to sink to the level of CNN ?
I just watched the NTSB press conference and at no point was it claimed that the train was going 100+ mph in a 50 mph zone. But this doesn't freak people out enough, so the press runs the story that the train was going 100+ mph before the derailment.
Without a detailed analysis of how fast the train was going at the moment of derailment, reporting how fast it was going before that point is intentionally misleading.
Why does the Times need to sink to the level of CNN ?
5
Google works on driver-less cars and we have people doing the trains? They're on tracks for heavens sake. Five (not so massively paralleled) 2015 cell phones could handle this.
4
I'm sure unions would really go for automation of their jobs - they have usually been so receptive to it in the past...
Out here, BART is completely automated - the motormen literally sit there and open and close the doors, the train is driven by computer. Doesn't stop the unions from claiming that motormen still have to be put on every train (at well above six-figure salaries) and read the paper while the train drives itself.
Out here, BART is completely automated - the motormen literally sit there and open and close the doors, the train is driven by computer. Doesn't stop the unions from claiming that motormen still have to be put on every train (at well above six-figure salaries) and read the paper while the train drives itself.
2
Way past time for the American people to wake up to the shredding of our vital infrastructure by the far right. This is insane.
28
The Fed Govt should mandate seat belts on trains. That and of course invest in upkeep of the track bed (hope springs eternal) and training and more training.
But in the meantime it is ridiculous that we have seat belts in cars planes and school buses but not trains. Now is the time to get it done.
But in the meantime it is ridiculous that we have seat belts in cars planes and school buses but not trains. Now is the time to get it done.
3
School buses do not havecseatbelts in all places. And intercity buses may have them on newer buses but passengers are not obligated to use them. I am one of the few who do...
Why was the train speeding through a sharp turn and why are there no automatic safety measures to slow a too fast train?
Why do we have such infrequent and slow train service in the northeast corridor? And why is our infrastructure in general falling apart throughout the US?
Boston has a mass transit system but many subway cars are 50 years old, the system is slow, archaic, prone to failure, poorly interconnected, and the trains don't have enough capacity.
I visited Switzerland last fall. They are light years ahead of us in public transportation, the quality of roads and bridges, and they enjoy a much overall higher standard of living than we do.
The US is "the best" we're always told. We're the best at blowing up people and waging war. However we don't adequately invest in our own people, their education, healthcare, providing equal economic opportunities, a living wage for about 50 million people, or supply basic standard of living metrics in our cities.
Government "of the people, by the people, for the people" can do all these things but we are constantly told that government is the problem, inept, and should do less. I think the people repeating this mantra are inept and ignorant of much of the rest of the "first" world. Eisenhower didn't build the interstate highway system by relying on the private sector, for instance.
Why do we have such infrequent and slow train service in the northeast corridor? And why is our infrastructure in general falling apart throughout the US?
Boston has a mass transit system but many subway cars are 50 years old, the system is slow, archaic, prone to failure, poorly interconnected, and the trains don't have enough capacity.
I visited Switzerland last fall. They are light years ahead of us in public transportation, the quality of roads and bridges, and they enjoy a much overall higher standard of living than we do.
The US is "the best" we're always told. We're the best at blowing up people and waging war. However we don't adequately invest in our own people, their education, healthcare, providing equal economic opportunities, a living wage for about 50 million people, or supply basic standard of living metrics in our cities.
Government "of the people, by the people, for the people" can do all these things but we are constantly told that government is the problem, inept, and should do less. I think the people repeating this mantra are inept and ignorant of much of the rest of the "first" world. Eisenhower didn't build the interstate highway system by relying on the private sector, for instance.
18
I am confused as to why ten billion dollars would be necessary to install positive train control. Why not GPS? It seems like the most expensive system is always chosen, causing vast expenses and long delays.
If nothing else, it seems GPS and satellites could be used as a back up system. If a speed too high were detected, the train could be set to automatically slowdown after two warnings were sent without a response. As one who works in satellites and communications technologies, it doesn't seem all that difficult, at least to use as a back-up or stand-in measure until a more complete system would be fully installed.
Even without direct or indirect control, a GPS system, using mapping of the train's route, could call out alerts along the way: CHECK SPEED, CHECK SPEED. Then, REDUCE SPEED, REDUCE SPEED. This is not that difficult.
I realize that this might not be as simple as it might appear to someone who isn't a train engineer, but, hey, this looks like a tragic and completely unnecessary loss of human life. I put my daughter on an Amtrak train for NY a little more than 24 hours before this crash and it certainly upsets me, as it would anyone, to realize it could have been her train.
We need to get smarter faster. This isn't the 19th century. We have digital tools at our disposal that could prevent crashes and setting up the very best system should not stop us from having one that is better than nothing, while a better system is installed over time.
Doug Terry
6
If we had updated our infrastructure and invested in Automatic Train Control (ATC), which, among other things, ensures that trains cannot exceed speed limits, this tragic accident would not have happened.
The rest of the developed world is laughing at us, while we argue about whether it's better to cut taxes on the wealthy or to upgrade our transportation systems.
The rest of the developed world is laughing at us, while we argue about whether it's better to cut taxes on the wealthy or to upgrade our transportation systems.
11
Actually, we have Automatic Train Control, and it is operational on the Acela corrridor.
Every form of transportation should be equipped with the latest safety equipment! To not do this is just inviting the kind of catastrophe we witness all to often! Money should never stand in the way of consumer safety...EVER. It is inviting these kinds of accidents to happen. I really can't imagine the grief that the victim's families are going through right now.
6
Infrastructure spending. Europe and China ride hi-speed trains that are incapable of 'human error'. Their manufacture, track construction and daily operation create jobs and get cars off the roads. Yes: government is necessary to accomplish this. So Washington-style capitalism precludes it.
11
Forget about infrastructure. It definitely has to be sleep apnea (sound familiar?). Upon hearing the recent press conference, I noticed that the NTSB spokesman did not answer the question about how long it would take from when the engineer applied the brakes to when the train slowed down. Sorry, I may be very cynical, but I cannot believe anything that I hear from the NTSB.
1
Techology exists that could have prevented this accident. I have a $150 car GPS that shows me the speed limit on every inch of numbered highway in the country. The same approach could be used in trains to map the speed limits along the entire train line, and tie a locomotive GPS to the train control system to limit the maximum speed. Fact is, humans make errors, and technology can often compensate.
On a secondary point, I am extremely impressed by Mayor Michael Nutter's calm, compassionate, and rational performance in this tragedy. There should be a place for him on a national ticket.
On a secondary point, I am extremely impressed by Mayor Michael Nutter's calm, compassionate, and rational performance in this tragedy. There should be a place for him on a national ticket.
10
At painful, lethal moments like this, federal oversight such as that provided by the National Transportation Safety Board seems very good and absolutely necessary.
9
After a few more years of republican policies we may no longer recognize the America we all know and love.
11
What on Earth does this comment have to do with the tragedy in Philadelphia?
3
Let's see...
The headline of the article reads:
"Amtrak Train That Derailed Was Going 100 M.P.H., Officials Say; 7 Killed"
Then - the first paragraphs say, in part...
"The Amtrak train that derailed in Philadelphia on Tuesday night, killing at least seven people, was barreling through a sharp turn at 100 miles an hour or more, at least twice the speed limit on that stretch of track...
The train’s speed was recorded in the “black box” data recorders that were recovered from the wreckage...
[...]
...The speed limit on that curve, in the Port Richmond section of the city, is 50 miles an hour, according to the Federal Railroad Administration, and on either side of the curve it is 70 m.p.h.
“When you are depending entirely on a human being, the engineer in this case, then there is an opening for a human error and a tragedy like this one,” said Russ Quimby, a retired rail crash investigator with the safety board."
But the NY Times commentors do not disappoint --
"It's the Republicans' fault -- blame them"
"The entire infrastructure of the country is crumbling and we need trillions of dollars to rebuild.:
And - of course --
"In Europe, they do it so much better than we do here - and they (whoever 'they' is) are laughing at us."
Funny - but what I read was the motorman was driving the train at twice the speed for safety --
One wonders what the commentors will say when it turns out he was high on marijuana...that it heightens the senses and improves awareness - ?
The headline of the article reads:
"Amtrak Train That Derailed Was Going 100 M.P.H., Officials Say; 7 Killed"
Then - the first paragraphs say, in part...
"The Amtrak train that derailed in Philadelphia on Tuesday night, killing at least seven people, was barreling through a sharp turn at 100 miles an hour or more, at least twice the speed limit on that stretch of track...
The train’s speed was recorded in the “black box” data recorders that were recovered from the wreckage...
[...]
...The speed limit on that curve, in the Port Richmond section of the city, is 50 miles an hour, according to the Federal Railroad Administration, and on either side of the curve it is 70 m.p.h.
“When you are depending entirely on a human being, the engineer in this case, then there is an opening for a human error and a tragedy like this one,” said Russ Quimby, a retired rail crash investigator with the safety board."
But the NY Times commentors do not disappoint --
"It's the Republicans' fault -- blame them"
"The entire infrastructure of the country is crumbling and we need trillions of dollars to rebuild.:
And - of course --
"In Europe, they do it so much better than we do here - and they (whoever 'they' is) are laughing at us."
Funny - but what I read was the motorman was driving the train at twice the speed for safety --
One wonders what the commentors will say when it turns out he was high on marijuana...that it heightens the senses and improves awareness - ?
12
Your comment reminds me of industrial safety reform legislation during the early Industrial Revolution. Workers were being killed and maimed by machines, including belt drive systems for machines that would take your arm off if you got too close. The factory owners said such laws were unnecessary, as the accidents were the result of the negligence of the workers, and not the fault of the factory owners.
9
To be fair, the comments have been here for hours and hours BEFORE this new info came to light.
However, you are correct about the knee-jerk reactions (before this info was known) of the liberal effete coastal upper middle class white 70 year old NYT readers.
Is that enough adjectives for you? If not, I am sure Fox "News" will come up with some more tonight.
However, you are correct about the knee-jerk reactions (before this info was known) of the liberal effete coastal upper middle class white 70 year old NYT readers.
Is that enough adjectives for you? If not, I am sure Fox "News" will come up with some more tonight.
2
How do you think Republicans feel about funding the safety devices that could have averted this tragedy? Just asking. Since it seems you might be familiar with a few of them.
4
from the article "Experts said the derailment might have been averted by a safety system called positive train control, that can, among other features, automatically reduce the speed of a train that is going too fast. To do that, the system must be installed on both the train and the route; the Amtrak train had it, but that stretch of track did not." So what is the point of it? just another fine example of our crumbling infrastructure and lack of spending in that direction. Thanks Congress!
11
What a disgrace. This country is falling apart and congress just doesn't care. I guess the 1% don't ride the trains much, so they just don't care. Our bridges and roads are also in terrible condition. What is happening to us?
13
The silver lining to this cloud is that Philadelphia has plenty of hospitals and medical centers, including CHOP (What locals call Children's Hospital of Philadelphia) so the survivors should have access to good medical care.
I've taken Amtrak but usually to Pittsburgh, as I have family in Western Pennsylvania.
R.I.P. fellow Amtrak riders.
I've taken Amtrak but usually to Pittsburgh, as I have family in Western Pennsylvania.
R.I.P. fellow Amtrak riders.
2
They were traveling, according to the report of the data, at twice the speed limit, and yet we got earlier today reports from passengers about how the ride was perfectly normal up until the derailment. Makes me want to know the speeds at which trains generally take such curves -- closer to the speed limit or closer to what this train was reported to have been going?
6
Diana, if a train is not accelerating and has been going more or less the same speed for a while, it is very difficult to sense the speed from being a passenger.
4
Yes! That was my thought exactly!
As much as we need infrastructure, there is something that can be done right now to improve safety, and that is to make sure the trains are going the right speed.
As much as we need infrastructure, there is something that can be done right now to improve safety, and that is to make sure the trains are going the right speed.
1
Makes me wonder about Amtrak's vetting process.
As long as there are humans driving the trains, this will continue to happen. Automated trains have a near perfect record and cost less to operate. The unions would have you believe otherwise but in regards to planes, trains and automobiles, the future is driverless. The technology is here and the sooner we adopt it the better. America's rail system is unfortunately only one step above the stagecoach--primitive at best.
6
If we cannot find the will and the dollars to allow our transportation system to serve its citizens with the best available safety devices, proper maintenance and well trained operators, then we all should stand ashamed for those who call themselves public servants. While presiding over a growing population that is more mobile than ever - we continue to hear the cliches of runaway spending and no new taxes from the private jet set. Someday I hope my children will experience the decency of applying resources where they will do the most good for We the people.
14
When I was driving to work this morning listening to NPR I heard about this accident, however no one was going to speculate on why the train derailed. My first thought was speed around the curve. My thoughts didn’t however digress to poorly maintained infrastructure or not enough money to Amtrak: Just the fact that this train was traveling twice the speed limit. Tragic and my heart goes out to all the families affect by this accident.
7
The train operator killed and injured more people than the Boston bomber. I hope in two years a jury is debating life imprisonment or the death penalty although it's more likely his union will be debating a desk job vs. early retirement. It's going to be a surprise to the families of casualties that Amtrak has a cap on its liabilities unlike airlines. The limited liability for Amtrak and the lack of culpability for the operator rather than infrastructure investment is the villain here.
6
Has the NTSC released the raw data? I don't trust them.
1
Nevada licensed an autonomous 18 wheeler for public highways, with a human co-pilot, this month. How much longer will it take Amtrak to join the 21st century?
3
How do you propose Amtrak pay for additional engineers and safety systems, when Congress keeps cutting its funding?
Note that Congress once again cut Amtrak's funding today, despite today's accident:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/05/13/us/ap-us-travel-congress-amtr...
Note that Congress once again cut Amtrak's funding today, despite today's accident:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/05/13/us/ap-us-travel-congress-amtr...
4
Anybody checked on the personal issues of the engineer. Suicide attempt perhaps.
5
It is amazing that at this era of technology advancement (drones, GPS every where, driver less trains at airports, etc.), there is no automatic braking when a train approaches a curve with speed limit!
9
Here's what 's going to happen as a result of this accident. Congress will call a hearing on this tragedy. Everyone will say how awful this is and how do we prevent it from happening again. Then we as a country will go back to building more aircraft carriers, jets, tanks, drones, ect. Does anyone remember the Minnesota bridge collapse? I suggest we take 100 billion out of the defense budget per year and put it into rebuilding our infrastructure. That will leave the Defense Department a paltry 700 billion to work with each year.
Amtrak is a pathetic excuse for a company. They get a billion and a half dollars subsidy and they still operate like they were being operated by the Clampetts! Congress needs to replace them. Look at the bloated salaries of their management. The rest of the world laughs at us everyday. None of these people had to die.
Amtrak is a pathetic excuse for a company. They get a billion and a half dollars subsidy and they still operate like they were being operated by the Clampetts! Congress needs to replace them. Look at the bloated salaries of their management. The rest of the world laughs at us everyday. None of these people had to die.
11
Just as ISIS has been focusing on disrupting Western communications, al-Quaeda has a history of focusing on transportation, from crashing planes on 9/11 to blowing up trains in Europe, even the Boston Marathon. We should be extra vigilant to be sure this horrible wreck--which seems inexplicable today--is not the work of terrorists. That includes possible martyrs on or near the derailed train.
4
100 mph. Double the speed limit. Think that this might be a Germanwings situation?
What do we know about the engineer?
What do we know about the engineer?
6
The results of this happened are not in but a few of the Amtrak accidents were caused by operator error. If we now have driver less cars, why not use the same technology for trains? Robots don't text or fall asleep, etc.
5
How about offering GOOGLE a chance at pro-bono development of railroad control equipment like their cars for automatic operation with an attendant engineer to override in an emergency. Google can pioneer and design equipment on trial trains that can be reproduced for all trains in the nation. Google loves advertising as it is now and they can reap the value of notoriety at minimal cost. It should be a more important objective than autonomous passenger cars.
2
Although we should spend more on infrastructure, a train going 107 MPH on a corner appears to be the cause. Still our congress is more concerned about funding the Joint Strike Fighter JSF135 that does not work and is a complete black hole of wasteful spending.
13
One of the sad things is that with one of the worst rail systems in the modern world, we have speed limits as slow as 50 mph at all.
11
An earlier commenter who apparently rides this train regularly says its standard and usual speed is about 100 mph.
2
It is. But this curve had a limit of 50mph according to the FRA.
After the 2008 election I thought our federal government was going to pour trillions into US infrastructure rather than continue pouring trillions into armaments.
Crazy me, huh?
Crazy me, huh?
21
So many of these comments decry our political system and its failure to repair and update the country's transportation systems. Does anyone think that this is a priority for Hillary? Haven't heard it. The "managers" of these political candidates don't even put public transportation of the Must Say list, much less the Must Do list.
5
Dlud of New York City wonders whether infrastructure is a priority for Hillary:
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/clinton-calls-for-more-spe...
Then-Senator Clinton urged $10 billion for infrastructure after the Minneapolis bridge collapse in 2007.
The issue also was mentioned in her April candidacy announcement.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/clinton-calls-for-more-spe...
Then-Senator Clinton urged $10 billion for infrastructure after the Minneapolis bridge collapse in 2007.
The issue also was mentioned in her April candidacy announcement.
2
If this country did not throw so much money at the military-industrial complex, we would have the funds to build fast, safe train service like that existing in other countries. Such horrible tragedies must be eradicated as much as is humanly possible.
14
Infrastructure aside (which yes, of course there needs to be more funding), the train was going almost 50 mph over the speed limit. Anyone who has traveled on along this part of the track (myself included) know that's insane given the curve. Why isn't anyone mentioning this?! Of course the investigation is still going on and we should not speculate, but we already know this piece of information regarding the spped, which is irrefutable. Are we really going to step around the bush about this driver and their accountability (or lack thereof)?
7
In reply to all those wondering why we don't spend more on train tracks and bridges: Forget it. We are too busy building aircraft carriers and fighting wars without end. There's no money left to pay for infrastructure.
We should have listened to Ike.
We should have listened to Ike.
31
Real shame of this tragic accident is that some part of Amtrak rail has to run 50 mile speed limit while the rest of developed world is racing on more than 200 miles per hour.
12
Very glib and concise response, good for you!
One more question....Have you ever ridden the TDG in Europe, bullet trains in Japan, or the high speed rail in China? If you have you quickly realize 200 mph rail requires dedicated, purposely built tracks.
Think of an American interstate, the width, the easements, bridges, limited access. These things take up real estate, real estate the government doesn't own. . Wanna build a rail track through Houston? How many houses/neighborhoods will be razed? Your house? Your buddies? I support eminent domain, but realize its limitations.
China has the advantage, they just evict people!
Think about the mechanics of implementing your ideas.
One more question....Have you ever ridden the TDG in Europe, bullet trains in Japan, or the high speed rail in China? If you have you quickly realize 200 mph rail requires dedicated, purposely built tracks.
Think of an American interstate, the width, the easements, bridges, limited access. These things take up real estate, real estate the government doesn't own. . Wanna build a rail track through Houston? How many houses/neighborhoods will be razed? Your house? Your buddies? I support eminent domain, but realize its limitations.
China has the advantage, they just evict people!
Think about the mechanics of implementing your ideas.
1
Amtrak does an amazing job with a penny-size budget. How ironic that the House of Representatives cut $100 million from Amtrak's already starved resources less than 18 hours after this awful accident.
The cause of this crash is an ideological handicapped Congress that refuses to provide the funds needed for upgrading and safety equipment on Amtrak, which handles 75 percent of the traffic between our Capitol in Washington and our national financial center in New York City.
We are governed by people who do not merit their jobs.
The cause of this crash is an ideological handicapped Congress that refuses to provide the funds needed for upgrading and safety equipment on Amtrak, which handles 75 percent of the traffic between our Capitol in Washington and our national financial center in New York City.
We are governed by people who do not merit their jobs.
47
Wondering what appropriations would be under discussion in Congress today if Congressmen and/or their families had been on that train. Just sayin'.
12
Naw, we can't adequately fund Amtrak or expand its services because, well, because that would take bread out of the mouths of the poor starving oil companies who rely on U.S. taxpayers to subsidize the building and maintenance of highways and roads and not railways so that every single American is compelled to own one, two, three of those precious gas-guzzling smog-spewing automobiles that require weekly trips to the gas station (ka-ching!). Exxon doesn't like Amtrak and so neither does Congress, and we all know who really runs this country, don't we?
25
Prosecute the conductor for manslaughter and depraved indifference.
5
Ms. Weiss: The Engineer, not the Conductor, operates the train.
2
Why is it that nothing ever gets done in this country unless there is a disaster? This is the infrastructure that the House of Representatives have been ignoring in order to embarass Obama.
9
So, was the Democrat controlled House of 2007-2011 ignoring him then as well?
1
There is no evidence that this derailment was caused by track-related infrastructure. As the photos show, all 4 tracks are equipped with modern concrete ties, and the speed limit for this train on both sides of the curve is 90 mph.
I do not understand why the NTSB never mandated seatbelts be installed on these vehicles that often travel in excess of 100 miles per hour. True, not everyone would have been saved had they been wearing a seatbelt, but at least the chances of becomming a projectile would me lessened. Seatbelts are found on European high-speed trains, and this is just sound common sense to reduce risk. Former NTSB Chair Debbie Hershman never championed this
3
I hope they (investigators) can truthfully rule out that controls was not electronically hijacked from a distance.
ummm... Just as they did when four refineries had out of control process's leading to fires and explosions all within roughly a 24 hour window a few months back... cough cough...
ummm... Just as they did when four refineries had out of control process's leading to fires and explosions all within roughly a 24 hour window a few months back... cough cough...
2
A train going over 100 mph when the speed limit is 50 mph points to human error- sorry for all the politically motivated folks who 'need' this to be a question of funding. What this may be (I don't know) is an engineer texting and not paying attention to his job. The most deadly train accident in history was in 2008 when an engineer was texting (he died). And some woman a few months ago walked into a freight train while texting (I swear that is true).
Whatever the cause of this crash, texting is just sitting there waiting to cause the next tragedy. We need to ban this idiocy- no train personnel should be allowed to operate or even have a cell phone in their possession on a train. And we have the technology to turn off all cell phone signals on trains. We should do this; if a few people addicted to this electric nonsense are mad about not being able to play their foolish games on the train- so be it. Read a book and keep people safe.
Whatever the cause of this crash, texting is just sitting there waiting to cause the next tragedy. We need to ban this idiocy- no train personnel should be allowed to operate or even have a cell phone in their possession on a train. And we have the technology to turn off all cell phone signals on trains. We should do this; if a few people addicted to this electric nonsense are mad about not being able to play their foolish games on the train- so be it. Read a book and keep people safe.
10
"That area, in the Port Richmond section of the city, does not have a safety system called Positive Train Control that can, among other features, automatically reduce the speed of a train that is going too fast."
The victims should sue Amtrak and Amtrak should send the bill to congress.
My sincere condolences to all injured and killed. What a disaster. And completely preventable.
The victims should sue Amtrak and Amtrak should send the bill to congress.
My sincere condolences to all injured and killed. What a disaster. And completely preventable.
6
"That area, in the Port Richmond section of the city, does not have a safety system called Positive Train Control that can, among other features, automatically reduce the speed of a train that is going too fast."
This is because the track is owned by CSX and CSX need to install the PTC trackside hardware. While Amtrak have installed it on the segments of the NEC they own they cannot force CSX to install the hardware and CSX amongst other rail operators have requested additional time to do so due to the cost.
I guess they can factor some loss of life claims into those costs and benefits now.
This is because the track is owned by CSX and CSX need to install the PTC trackside hardware. While Amtrak have installed it on the segments of the NEC they own they cannot force CSX to install the hardware and CSX amongst other rail operators have requested additional time to do so due to the cost.
I guess they can factor some loss of life claims into those costs and benefits now.
1
I heard yesterday about a smart sprinkler system that adjust watering across different zones according the weather report, season, maximum cost for watering the homeowner sets, and automated soil moisture measurements. If this is possible, how hard could it be to prevent trains from speeding by linking their throttles to GPS devices that slow them down according to their location on the track? Several of these speeding accidents have already occurred and could have been prevented if trains were so equipped.
3
The cost to develop and install Positive Train Control on required lines is between $8-10 billion. That's "how hard could it be to prevent trains from speeding by linking their throttles to GPS devices that slow them down according to their location on the track?" The effort to develop and install PTC has been underway for at least 4 years.
No doubt, budget cuts have played a part in the woes of Amtrak. But what exactly do cuts have to do with a train operator speeding at more than TWICE the limit when taking this corner? Let's not use the deaths of at least 7 people to take political potshots.
7
Forget the infrastructure. The engineer pumped the speed over 2x the limit on a curve. Would you do that in your car?
6
Let's wait to hear... No, I wouldn't do that in my car, and I am extremely doubtful that a presumably, well-trained and experienced engineer would deliberately do that with the train he was driving.
I hope this is not another case of an engineer talking on his cell phone, or texting, with an acquaintance and failing to be alert to warning signals. Silicon Valley has had a role in creating a vast wasteland of junk communication that contributes nothing useful to the common good, and increasingly distracts drivers from paying attention to hazards. Perhaps all prime public transportation employees should be required to put their electronic amusements aside while on duty to avoid being lulled into disasters from inattention..
5
Why is it, with all the computer power at our disposal, that we can't devise a system that slows trains down when they pass over rickety old tracks? I realize we won't spend the money on a modern rail system but better to arrive late than not at all.
3
Nothing "rickety old tracks" here - the speed limit on both sides of the curve is 90 mph. Look at the photos - all new concrete ties.
1
Amtrak has ongoing issues with proper funding. However, I believe that this accident occurred probably as a result of distracted driving. Any train driver should know that curves are to be taken at reduced speed especially when other tracks are running into the main line. My heart goes out to the passengers, the first responders, and condolences to the victims families.
5
Yes, but with positive train control, he wouldn't have been able to speed up that way. The railroads are fighting positive train control because it costs money. All of those executives have blood on their hands.
News story just said that Republicans are attempting to cut Amtrak funding again this year. They have indicated that they will consider the matter once they read the accident report on this event. They have been a hindrance as they do not believe in a national train policy.
If the train driver survived the crash, he should not be allowed to survive the legal action against him.
4
I guess there will be criminal charges filed.
3
This was a third world accident, and a a grim indication where the US is heading. A nation having the capabilities and resources to build a drone plane to kill a terrorist, can not implement a technology to authomatically stop a train going twice the speed limit. Shameful.
19
The various investigations will, no doubt, find out what caused this terrible accident. It should be noted however, last year there were 230 fatalities from 2100 rail accidents, according to a recent National Journal article on intercity passenger train travel. This includes all of the nation's commuter and subway lines. It should also be noted that, aside from the excellent and safe high speed rail networks in Europe and Japan (who launched their Bullet Trains in 1965), the People's Republic of China built, in just twenty years a safe, efficient high speed rail network throughout its five time zones. The Chinese Government continues to budget over 120 billion dollars annually for its rail system.
I take Amtrak everywhere and have stopped taking planes which have become school buses with wings, owing to the indifferent customer service, nickel and diming passengers with charges for everything, creating discord among its customers over reclining seat distances, etc. Amtrak is OK and if it was funded as the national asset it is and can be, it would be a powerful catalyst for tourism and economic development as well as a wonderful, safe traveling experience. Even without such improvements Amtrak's patronage has increased dramatically. The American people would gravitate in a heartbeat to a high speed and higher speed Amtrak just as they did to the Metroliner in the mid sixties.
I take Amtrak everywhere and have stopped taking planes which have become school buses with wings, owing to the indifferent customer service, nickel and diming passengers with charges for everything, creating discord among its customers over reclining seat distances, etc. Amtrak is OK and if it was funded as the national asset it is and can be, it would be a powerful catalyst for tourism and economic development as well as a wonderful, safe traveling experience. Even without such improvements Amtrak's patronage has increased dramatically. The American people would gravitate in a heartbeat to a high speed and higher speed Amtrak just as they did to the Metroliner in the mid sixties.
7
The derailment, regardless of the train traveling over the speed limit, is a tragic symptom of the crumbling infrastructure in the US. Instead of debating and passing bills to rebuild and invest in America's infrastructure and addressing growing income inequality and poverty in urban areas and police brutality, Obama and Congress are debating and trying to pass the trade bill (TPP) and the Iran nuclear bill. Clearly, both the president and congress do not care about those priorities matter most to Americans.
3
It was going twice the speed limit. Was the engineer drunk? Suicidal?
7
To those who dismiss complaints about our failing infrastructure: you are wrong.
Modern rail systems in Europe and Asia use satellites to control train speed. If the train starts to go too fast, the system slows it down. If there's unexpected traffic, the system alerts everyone who needs to know and can even divert traffic to avoid collisions. The system relays data to train drivers. And so on and so on.
If we had modern rail systems in this country, that Amtrak train wouldn't have been able to reach such a dangerously high speed. So yes, it's infrastructure.
Safety systems in European rail networks:
http://www.navipedia.net/index.php/Rail_Traffic_Management_and_Signaling...
Modern rail systems in Europe and Asia use satellites to control train speed. If the train starts to go too fast, the system slows it down. If there's unexpected traffic, the system alerts everyone who needs to know and can even divert traffic to avoid collisions. The system relays data to train drivers. And so on and so on.
If we had modern rail systems in this country, that Amtrak train wouldn't have been able to reach such a dangerously high speed. So yes, it's infrastructure.
Safety systems in European rail networks:
http://www.navipedia.net/index.php/Rail_Traffic_Management_and_Signaling...
30
I am tempted, yet again, to point a finger at our elected representatives in the US Congress who do not seem to represent us. A cursory examination of the unwillingness of the Republican side of the aisle indicates a lack of human concern and kindness in their unwillingness to step up the the plate and face the terrible infrastructure needs of our land, including our rail systems. Shame on them. How many more tragedies of this kind will we allow before getting our act together as a nation?
12
unbelievable that somehow you blame republicans for an accident that at first glance seems to be caused by human error...oh, i bet the engineer was a member of a union that supports democrats so lets go blame the democrats...or better yet, lets wait until a full report comes out before putting the blame on anyone...human error is not political
1
Public transportation doesn't have a good ROI like a war or three do. Jeez, don't you know where a representatives bread is buttered?
1
You guys at The Times should have made the connection between speed and Amtrak's promise to install PTC. PTC was all over the coverage of the recent Metro North Spuyten Duyvil accident, where over-speed was blamed, and as a result Metro North has committed to deploying PTC.
2
the *minimum" speed limit for european high speed rail is 155 miles per hour.
10
Just a note having lived in Europe for 7 years---not every line is high speed and yes, not even between major cities. Between East and West some tracks are not even the same gauge....people discussing AMTRAK's poor rail system need to do better research.
This train was going at twice the maximum speed in a curved corridor. This is not an "infrastructure" problem of poorly maintained tracks. It is a management and training issue. It should also be very simple to sound alerts tied to specific geographic locations -- even an iPhone has all the capability to do this. But technology backup is not a solution to poor training.
4
if we can have driverless cars, why not driveless trains? humans can spend their time fixing the tracks.
prayers for all those lost their lives or were injured.
prayers for all those lost their lives or were injured.
5
Once again, plenty of funds for war, but not enough for infrastructure.
31
I see quite a few comments about Congressional funding and additional taxes for Amtrak??? Why should tax dollars go towards a private business???
1
It's not a private business.
1
Because Amtrak really isn't a private business. Just because the government spins off something they don't want to pay for doesn't make it a normal private business.
1
Amtrak is not a private business, its a publicly owned business, like the Postal Service. And, I guess you could say that taxes need to go where they are needed to support safety and other public objectives. Your taxes go to all kinds of transportation oriented assets, from air navigation systems, to canals, to highways. Rail has the capability to be a rapid, safe and energy efficient way to transport people. But, not so much so with a third world mentality toward it by the public.
America has turned into a dump, right before our eyes.
23
It seems that a large number of commenters here have a limited knowledge of railroad operations. Many transit systems like SEPTA in Southeastern PA already have implemented PTC, and were one of the first to meet the 2015 deadline. Here's a link regarding PTC and SEPTA: http://www.gannettfleming.com/Projects/2015/02/24/13/49/septa-positive-t...
Some have been complaining that it should be up to the railroads and affected communities rather than a federally supported program. Very short-sighted and selfish it you ask me. We are supposed to be a civilized society, not an every man for himself dystopia. How about the vast federal support for the airline industry. Efficient, high speed rail could eliminate much of the waste associated with short haul airline traffic.
Don't be lulled into a false sense of complacency. Oil will not be cheap and plentiful forever, and it is up to the present generations to leave a viable society for our grandchildren.
Some have been complaining that it should be up to the railroads and affected communities rather than a federally supported program. Very short-sighted and selfish it you ask me. We are supposed to be a civilized society, not an every man for himself dystopia. How about the vast federal support for the airline industry. Efficient, high speed rail could eliminate much of the waste associated with short haul airline traffic.
Don't be lulled into a false sense of complacency. Oil will not be cheap and plentiful forever, and it is up to the present generations to leave a viable society for our grandchildren.
296
And on that note, do remember that electricity is generated by gas, coal or oil right now and that many engines (even outside the US) run on diesel.
You're right Jay, but trains use infinitely less fossil fuels than aircraft and automobiles.. Also diesel locomotives are actually diesel/electric, sort of like a hybrid Prius. The hard fact is that there isn't anything that can replace fossil fuels for the amount of energy they contain per unit, at least for the foreseeable future.
A great example of why we need Federal Government regulation of such things-I cannot vote with my pocketbook on which train lines I choose to ride on based on their individual track maintenance policies. If I buy a ticket from NY to SF how will I know which tracks I happen to be on are properly maintained?
We collectively pay more to fly because we have to take our shoes off at the airport so we will all fly safer. Shouldn't we collectively pay more to fund a safer more robust public transportation rail system?
We collectively pay more to fly because we have to take our shoes off at the airport so we will all fly safer. Shouldn't we collectively pay more to fund a safer more robust public transportation rail system?
I used to ride the Northeast corridor on Amtrak quite a bit. They were proud when they started having trains travel at 100 mph, and that was the Acela service. Now it is routine for regular passenger trains to hit those speeds. I was just back there 2 weeks ago, and measured the speed on my iPhone app. It ranged from 95 to 104 mph. And I thought, "if we ever had to decelerate suddenly, we are all pretty much toast."
Someone familiar with the NE corridor correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the train usually wait until past Trenton to hit max speed, when it is in rural NJ?
Someone familiar with the NE corridor correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the train usually wait until past Trenton to hit max speed, when it is in rural NJ?
8
This run is known for being fast but that doesn't mean there aren't places where the train must slow down. The driver should have slowed down at this curve. Any place that has multiple tracks is a "go slow" location because the train can go off the track at convergence points.
I wonder......would SEAT BELTS have saved the lives of those who died in this crash?
6
If you look on Amtrak's website, their press release says Positive Train Control (PTC) was to be installed throughout the NE Corridor by 2013. PTC prevents the train from being driven too fast through a controlled area. What gives?
13
We may not be able to fix all of the infrastructure quickly but what if, as seems likely, excess speed was the cause of the crash, we added a device that would limit the train's speed based on GPS coordinates. Already automotive units are capable of displaying speed limits based on current location so it should be simple to connect this to the "dead-man's switch" and automatically throttle back and/or apply the brakes if the speed were greater than appropriate for the current location.
7
Great idea, at least for a stopgap, and this does not even require an actual expenditure on the tracks or switches.
Bad math? Maybe its me but when I took math to find out the speed of an object its a rather simple equation. If the train traveled past a specific point in 5 seconds (rounded down) and the train was 662 feet long, that means the train is moving from point a to point be of the train at 132 ft per second. If we then multiply that distance times the number of seconds in an hour (3600) we get the distance traveled in an hour (476,640 ft). We then divide that by the number of feet in a mile (5380 ft) to arrive at the miles traveled in an hour (90.27 miles/per hour). This is more plausible but still a bit fast. My concern is that speculative reporting is not necessarily represented accurately by this reporters post. 90 mph is still 40 mph faster than conditions were rated and wrong but I'd rather see better fact check reporting.
1
Passenger rail travel presents an economic quandary in the U.S. The country is too big and spread out to make it economic compared to more densely populated areas like Europe or Japan (the Northeast corridor might be the sole exception). People use air travel much more. Passenger rail can't make it on ticket sales alone, so it requires hefty government subsidies, which run counter to the conservative free market philosophy. Yet Congress can't quite bring itself to chop passenger rail altogether, so it has fallen into a financial half-way place where it's not allowed to die, but also never properly financed so it can fully live. I think we should go one or way the other: either let it die, or cough up the dough so it can be run well.
8
I took a visit to the Soo locks on northern Michigan four years ago, and was surprised to see how little used they are now. There are only about 50 ships that frequent Lake Superior. Some days, even in summer, there not a single ship that uses the lock. Why I bring this up is that there is a plan afoot to upgrade these locks at a cost of $2 billion by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. The ships using the locks do no even pay a toll. So, why is it okay to use tax money to support such a small fleet of boats carrying raw materials, but not a rail network that can service millions of people? We, or at least our leadership, have come to weird political mindset in America in which its fine to subsidize businesses, but not people.
1
Why is there not an automatic control on all passenger trains that stops the driver from exceeding a certain speed limit? I have noticed in every subway system in North America I have been in that the drivers go way too fast. Why is there not a speed control? Someone needs to answer this question. Speed ocntrols need installing on every passenger, and even freight train, in the U.S.
4
Seriously. My bike has a speedometer on it, which costs $10. Why is this hard?
1
Does an NTSB officer accompany the black boxes that were brought to Amtrak's facility in Wilmington and assist with the findings?
2
Every time I read about a train hitting a car or truck on the tracks, they immediately drug test the engineer, which may or may not be necessary. In this story, nothing is mentioned at all about the engineer. Why? Has the engineer been drug-tested? My first thought is that the engineer allowed the train to go too fast. The train crew is supposed to have detailed knowledge of the route, they have signals to obey, and there may be other things like that to help them determine safe travel speeds. I'm curious to learn more. So sad to read about the deaths and injuries.
2
I am SURE he has been drug tested, having had that job once and retired from it. If the cab signal/Automatic Train Control system had been installed on this particular curve, which it wasn't, the accident would not have happened. This is a tragedy for all concerned including the locomotive engineer, who will relive this accident for the rest of his life. I feel sorrow for everyone involved.
Infrastructure investments are long overdue...an upgrade of the entire system: Trains, tracks, bridges and tunnels, especially a tunnel into NYC from Jersey: Christie's bigger folly than Bridgegate : cancellation of New Jersey's expected financial support to replace the 100 year old SINGLE Tunnel into Manhattan!!
Traveling in Europe by rail is sooo civilized!! Thus light years ahead of the US.
Traveling in Europe by rail is sooo civilized!! Thus light years ahead of the US.
10
Meanwhile the Japanese have operated an incredibly extensive network of Shinkansen high speed trains for over 50 years with not a single operational accident resulting in loss of life. Oh and in most years the average train arrives less than 60 seconds from the scheduled time.
Obviously the US and Japan are geographically different, but the US east and west coasts are incredibly similar in terms of population density (and the west coast in terms of terrain). I wish every member of congress would spend a week traveling Japan by train to see what a modern rail network can do for an advanced economy.
Someone needs to figure out how to frame this as a defense issue so Lockheed and Northrup Grummen lobbyists can help make this case - much as the Interstate Highway System was justified in part by the need to move people between cities in the event of an attack.
Obviously the US and Japan are geographically different, but the US east and west coasts are incredibly similar in terms of population density (and the west coast in terms of terrain). I wish every member of congress would spend a week traveling Japan by train to see what a modern rail network can do for an advanced economy.
Someone needs to figure out how to frame this as a defense issue so Lockheed and Northrup Grummen lobbyists can help make this case - much as the Interstate Highway System was justified in part by the need to move people between cities in the event of an attack.
9
Sometimes...yes, sometimes when I take Amtrak, I get the feeling that the train im riding on is similar in speed to the car Ms. Daisy was driven around in.
1
I thought the trains had some kind of governor on them so that they could go over a certain speed. Some railroad engineer. About twenty years in prison would be appropriate for this guy.
1
From the new headline, high speed was involved in the deadly derailment, just as it had been in a Metro North Hudson River Line deadly derailment. The message must be heeded - what counts is arriving alive; timing is a distant second consideration to safety.
5
They have plenty of train accidents in Europe despite plenty of infrastructure spending.
Infrastructure spending would certainly make this whole system more efficient, but short of wrapping each rail passenger in a bubble and moving at 20 mph, it won't make the system much safer.
Until yesterday, there were 36 rail passenger fatalities since 2006. Half of those years had no passenger fatalities at all while 30,000 Americans die in traffic accidents each year with 10,000 in accidents attributed to excessive speed. In comparison, 25 people a year are killed by lightening strikes.
The problem with high speed rail isn't the point to point - it's getting to your destination city and needing a car to get to your final destination. That's another expensive infrastructure problem.
Infrastructure spending would certainly make this whole system more efficient, but short of wrapping each rail passenger in a bubble and moving at 20 mph, it won't make the system much safer.
Until yesterday, there were 36 rail passenger fatalities since 2006. Half of those years had no passenger fatalities at all while 30,000 Americans die in traffic accidents each year with 10,000 in accidents attributed to excessive speed. In comparison, 25 people a year are killed by lightening strikes.
The problem with high speed rail isn't the point to point - it's getting to your destination city and needing a car to get to your final destination. That's another expensive infrastructure problem.
5
The Agenda-driven infrastructure blowhards who are doing most of the posting here have no use for your data. Their cherished Opinions have again been validated by an accident.
Allowing trains to run without automatic limits and controls is outrageous in this day and age. This appears to be like the Metro-North Hudson Line tragedy of last winter in which the safety of an entire train was left in the hands of one fallible human operator (who dozed). As I understand it, speed limit controls are available. There's no excuse for not using the latest proven technology. Public transportation infrastructure should be a priority, not an afterthought.
10
Looking at the coach crumpled up like a beer can I suggest its designers be charged with criminal negligence. Surely passenger cars can and should be designed to survive accidents such as this intact to protect passengers in it.
2
why are there no seatbelts on trains?
1
Trains pass this curve in the track dozens of times a day. Will we learn that the train operator was texting or otherwise distracted? Or, will we learn that another form of human error was involved?
5
Unlikely as those devices are prohibited on engines after the Metrolink texting accident a few years back.
Let's be clear: the Japanese have run the bullet train "Shinkansen" since 1964 WITHOUT ONE FATALITY since that time. That statistic clearly confirms that derailments are NOT "acts of God" or "unavoidable accidents". On the contrary, we have seen from the Japanese example that by providing 1) adequate resources to keep equipment up-to-date and in fine working order and 2) assuring that the CORRECT people, well trained and well paid are running the system, taken together, will provide a safe, efficient, environmentally friendly mode of transportation. In this country we have NEVER come to terms with the reality that to have a safe and efficient system one must PAY FOR IT. Such modes of transportation are NDISPENSABLE to the functioning of a modern economy for myriad reasons. Running ancient equipment as Amtrak does is just another sad confirmation of our declining standing in relation to our economic competitors.
834
well, true about the Bullet trains, but there was a very bad crash killing over 100 people in 2005. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_rail_crash
It, like this crash, was likely due to train speeds being in excess of stated limits.
It, like this crash, was likely due to train speeds being in excess of stated limits.
Shinkansen - 11 billion passenger journeys over the last 50 years, 0 fatalities.
Amtrak - approx 1 billion passenger journeys, 58 times total accident rate compared to the TGV in France (per American Enterprise Institute). Still safer than bus and much safer than auto travel, but could be so much faster and safer...
Amtrak - approx 1 billion passenger journeys, 58 times total accident rate compared to the TGV in France (per American Enterprise Institute). Still safer than bus and much safer than auto travel, but could be so much faster and safer...
There have been no passenger fatalities on the bullet trains, but people have been killed by the Shinkansen - in 2013 there was a bullet train-car collision with a fatality, and their have also been two bullet train derailments. The better question is to consider with the rest of the Japanese system. It still have an truly admirable record, but it is not perfect, and Japan too has had catastrophic rail accidents due to operator errors. The most recent was on April 25, 2005 when a commuter train derailed and crashed into an apartment complex, killing 107 people and injuring over 450 others.
Having travelled overseas on faster more frequent and safer trains many of us can point a finger at potential causes of this and other disasters: Poorly built and poorly maintained railbeds, inadequate safety training for train operators, inadequate oversight of operators, lack of automated speed governors on trains...etc, etc. All are true, because we have shorted rail travel in comparison to air and highway travel for much too long. Neither party has made safer, more efficient trains a priority. How could they, when we spend trillions on the military and its adventures all over the globe?
28
We need to decide what our priorities are as a society. So far those who can travel by private jet are setting our priorities.
I think it's clear that we have also shorted air and highway travel if you look at U.S. airports, roads and bridges.
City Trucker,
Automobiles and the travel requirements for those still rule our culture. Why would there be the latest technology for public transportation when people still
prefer to jump into their car and drive solo to wherever?
Automobiles and the travel requirements for those still rule our culture. Why would there be the latest technology for public transportation when people still
prefer to jump into their car and drive solo to wherever?
About 250 on board and over 200 affected, that would be at least 80%.
Amtrak has one big 100+% mess on their hands.
Our condolences to all those who indeed have been affected and will be for the time to come.
Amtrak has one big 100+% mess on their hands.
Our condolences to all those who indeed have been affected and will be for the time to come.
5
It's a problem, but sadly, paying off some lawsuits is a cheaper alternative than fixing the entire broken system.
It would be pretty easy to design a GPS based speed governor, limiting a train electronically to a maximum speed dependent on where it is at the moment.
A lot of these derailment accidents are based on excessive speed, (Europe as well) why has no one implemented such a device? Is it like the airbags, someone crunching numbers has determined a human life has less value than fixing the actual problem?
A lot of these derailment accidents are based on excessive speed, (Europe as well) why has no one implemented such a device? Is it like the airbags, someone crunching numbers has determined a human life has less value than fixing the actual problem?
9
I ride that route regularly and use my GPS speedometer to measure how fast the train is going, and between 100 and 120 mph is regular for the Northeast Direct. Probably because an Acela is right behind it and they have to run like crazy to keep out of the way.
17
The real problem: if 100 mph is twice the speed limit for that section the track, the whole track is old and useless — it needs to be replaced with modern technology.
Japan's maglev just broke the speed record at 374 mph, even if only experimental, they are looking to the future — while we are stuck in the past with horse and buggy.
China's maglev train remains the fastest in service, hitting 268 mph as it speeds through Shanghai. By comparison, Amtrak's Acela Express — call it Depress —can go as fast as 150 mph, but aging infrastructure means it averages only 65 mph..
Unfortunately our leaders are handcuffed by a bankrupt and corrupt political system, beholden to money grabbers and managers. Congress, in their 'wisdom' — read, zero IQ — are merely mouthpieces and puppets of vested interests and ready to vote today to slash $100 million fro Amtrak funding.
This is does not alleviate yesterday’s tragedy and justify the negligence of the train operators, but the most significant criminal blame lies with the politicians.
Japan's maglev just broke the speed record at 374 mph, even if only experimental, they are looking to the future — while we are stuck in the past with horse and buggy.
China's maglev train remains the fastest in service, hitting 268 mph as it speeds through Shanghai. By comparison, Amtrak's Acela Express — call it Depress —can go as fast as 150 mph, but aging infrastructure means it averages only 65 mph..
Unfortunately our leaders are handcuffed by a bankrupt and corrupt political system, beholden to money grabbers and managers. Congress, in their 'wisdom' — read, zero IQ — are merely mouthpieces and puppets of vested interests and ready to vote today to slash $100 million fro Amtrak funding.
This is does not alleviate yesterday’s tragedy and justify the negligence of the train operators, but the most significant criminal blame lies with the politicians.
91
Sorry but that does not make the track old and useless. It was designed for a train speed, given the area it must traverse, including rights of way that are not clear straight stretches (which high speed trains need more of). That's like saying your new Toyota is old and useless because it won't go as fast as a Ferrari.
Improving our rail system in the northeast is more complex than just buying new engines or cars. Your will have to displace a lot of other infrastructure in order to get dedicated rail beds. Not as easy as some pretend it is, especially when you consider that in America virtually anyone can (and will) sue to stop or hinder such plans, whether for environmental, NIMBY or other reasons, the politicians notwithstanding.
Improving our rail system in the northeast is more complex than just buying new engines or cars. Your will have to displace a lot of other infrastructure in order to get dedicated rail beds. Not as easy as some pretend it is, especially when you consider that in America virtually anyone can (and will) sue to stop or hinder such plans, whether for environmental, NIMBY or other reasons, the politicians notwithstanding.
Sorry the real problem is people are dead because the train was going to fast.
Age and what Japanese trains can do are irrelevant to that problem.
Don't confuse that with the gains that upgrading the tracks would bring.
Age and what Japanese trains can do are irrelevant to that problem.
Don't confuse that with the gains that upgrading the tracks would bring.
As long as we import so many important or otherwise coveted items, maybe we can import some patriots.
2
The GOP response to this will be to say that government doesn't work. Of course it doesn't work when you're busy not giving the correct amount of money and authority to the agencies involved. Of course it can't work when the elected officials are busy fighting everything that the president is trying to improve. But it's okay to prevent the government agencies from doing their jobs which involve keeping up our roads, our trains, our water routes, our food and medicine, and our work environments safe for us. It's okay to let people get sick, have accidents, and even die because the GOP doesn't want to pay for anything that makes Obama look good. It's okay to wait to fix something after it breaks and someone gets hurt. That gives our GOP congressional members something to rant about.
America has been neglecting to keep up its end of the bargain with its citizens for a long time. Constantly cutting taxes, increasing user fees, privatizing what the government should be doing have all led to the current malfunctions in our roads, bridges, railroads, airports, food safety system, drug approvals, OSHA, etc. Of course our elected thieves can pat themselves on their collective back because they've saved us money and they've kept their rich donors very happy. Death is a minor inconvenience when it comes to saving money.
America has been neglecting to keep up its end of the bargain with its citizens for a long time. Constantly cutting taxes, increasing user fees, privatizing what the government should be doing have all led to the current malfunctions in our roads, bridges, railroads, airports, food safety system, drug approvals, OSHA, etc. Of course our elected thieves can pat themselves on their collective back because they've saved us money and they've kept their rich donors very happy. Death is a minor inconvenience when it comes to saving money.
59
The right wingers will say to get rid of the passenger trains altogether even though the interstates and airways are at capacity. They might also counter with privatizing Amtrak although the railroads started losing money on their own passenger trains in the '20s and gave up in the '60s. The solution is employ mandatory voting which will disenfranchise the right wingers.
The infrastructure of this country is falling apart due to age. Unlike most of the advanced economies we are the only one that does not have true ultra high speed rail service. This country has to get its priorities straight. Right now, the total cost of our wars of aggression in the Muslim World is costing $10.54 million per hour.
69
you can have all the infrastructure you want, but when people approach a curve at twice the speed limit infrastructure hardly counts does it?
1
There's no indication that the track or train cars were defective. In the most recent similar case, micro-sleep and sleep apnea were the immediate culprits, with those perhaps being caused by the nature of the job (sitting still with not even momentary activity for nearly the entire work day).
Why don't you go on a one-man apology tour of the Muslim world? You can bring your infrastructure message there as well, I'm sure it will be well received.
Why don't you go on a one-man apology tour of the Muslim world? You can bring your infrastructure message there as well, I'm sure it will be well received.
1
Very simple. outside of the northeast Americans are not going to ride the train. They want the convenience and privacy of their private vehicles. You've got to consider the cultural differences between countries.
1
In addition to being a tragedy, this is a preventable, national embarrassment. Other countries must look at the US, with its ancient rail infrastructure, and see us as hopelessly mired in the mid-20th century - squabbling over the next way to rob the public coffers to reward the rich. Will we ever again invest in our country's infrastructure, or we will simply continue to ROT until we can no longer function, finally turning on ourselves as the only visible enemy? We wonder how ancient civilizations vanished, and yet we are in the midst of it ourselves and don't see our country crumbling before our very eyes.
74
Michael- You have made the wisest comments here. You are completely right that with America's continued trajectory of neglect we will "turn on ourselves as the only visible enemy. " That will be the endgame if we don't start fixing things. I bet people in other countries think we are already lost.
I was thinking the morning, when did we stop making things better? I'm not an historian but I think it was about 1970. We still had the momentum of NASA and the interstate highway system and NIH but I think we stopped adding new and keeping up with the current. I think that is when we started coasting and drifting. I think Vietnam took all the extra money and the energy and optimism and I don't think we ever got it back.
What are the new things that have been built--we should have such a vigorous nation that there should be too many accomplishments to count. As it is, some rebuilt hospitals look like hotels and many cities have new sports complexes. and that's about it.
I was thinking the morning, when did we stop making things better? I'm not an historian but I think it was about 1970. We still had the momentum of NASA and the interstate highway system and NIH but I think we stopped adding new and keeping up with the current. I think that is when we started coasting and drifting. I think Vietnam took all the extra money and the energy and optimism and I don't think we ever got it back.
What are the new things that have been built--we should have such a vigorous nation that there should be too many accomplishments to count. As it is, some rebuilt hospitals look like hotels and many cities have new sports complexes. and that's about it.
1
I'm sure this has been said but this is, what, the fourth tragic train derailment in the last 2 years? If ever there was a reason to update the country's infrastructure, these train derailments are it.
24
All the upgrading in the world won't stop accidents if the human driving the train goes twice the speed limit.
2
human error trumps infrastructure every time, and most of these wrecks have been human error.
1
How many of those were caused by failure of infrastructure versus human error/negligence?
It was actually 106.5 mph on stretch of track with only a 50 mph rating.
14
You've used numbers, making your comment incomprehensible to the crowd here.
1
When is the U.S. going to do something about the poor management at Amtrak? It seems every 8 months or so we experience an Amtrak accident due to human error––excessive speed, drug use, etc.––especially in the Eastern Corridor, and there are no consequences. The linked countries of the EU have excellent service (not always perfectly on time as one would imagine, but safe). Several years ago President Obama called for investment in a high speed rail system in the Northeast and it sounded quaint––necessary, but last century. But isn't it time we did something about Amtrak and transformed it into some other reliable entity before we have an accident of another magnitude? Condolences to the families who lost loved ones.
7
About when there's an official acknowledgement that the Iraq war was a management fiasco, run by criminal generals.
1
Are you willing to pay for three infrastructure? Amtrak cannot be responsible for the rails.
You would think that with all the technology we have, trains could be automatically controlled, slowed or stopped, as oppossed to relying on some overpaid union worker falling asleep at the switch.
7
Amtrak accidents in Lakeland are common around here.
Yet they continue to insist the drivers are at fault.
At least they made a partial admittance to the signal problem in January.
-
Amtrak Accident
http://michaelleekribbs.blogspot.com/2014/02/amtrak-accident.html
Yet they continue to insist the drivers are at fault.
At least they made a partial admittance to the signal problem in January.
-
Amtrak Accident
http://michaelleekribbs.blogspot.com/2014/02/amtrak-accident.html
3
I believe that train freight cars carry a RFID tag that can be read by sensors along the track to identify rolling stock. At ID tracking it is extremely accurate. If used with passenger cars, could it not be adopted easily to either notify train management that something is wrong or slow the darn thing down?
Force = Mass X Acceleration. A train has an enormous mass and 100 MPH is fast by human standards. That results in an amazing amount of force behind all that equipment. Simple physics dictate that a little imagination be used to recognize this and therefore reduce risks. The payoff would be immediate and high. There are good salaries floating around AMTRAK. Time to earn them.
Force = Mass X Acceleration. A train has an enormous mass and 100 MPH is fast by human standards. That results in an amazing amount of force behind all that equipment. Simple physics dictate that a little imagination be used to recognize this and therefore reduce risks. The payoff would be immediate and high. There are good salaries floating around AMTRAK. Time to earn them.
4
Let's control maximum train speeds automatically by computer. I know it can be done. All it takes is infrastructure improvement support. Congress - step up to the plate!
16
See this link: https://www.aar.org/policy/positive-train-control
As the site points out, Congress mandated Positive Train Control in 2008, however the technology is just starting to be available and reliable. Plus freight trains present an entirely different set of operational issues.
As the site points out, Congress mandated Positive Train Control in 2008, however the technology is just starting to be available and reliable. Plus freight trains present an entirely different set of operational issues.
The borrowed money wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan could have been used for infrastructure including modern government funded train service between say DC and NYC. But hey, Kabul and Baghdad are better than ever.
50
Once again, as with the Metro North tragedy over a year ago, there is the needless loss of life due to an engineer speeding into a dangerous and deadly curve. In this high-tech era, it is time to install systems to override such human error and automatically slow trains down well before they enter areas requiring much lower, safer speeds. Hopefully, such changes will be mandated until we ever get to high-speed dedicated rail system in the congested Northeast corridor. Whatever the costs, they are much less than that of another life.
17
There are many reasons to have a human in the driver's seat but I can see no reason for a speed of 100 mph in a 50 mile zone. Within congested city zones, trains should have overriding controls that prevent speeding.
9
and while we dream of the day those controls are installed we can, tonight, put two people in every passenger cab. used to be the fireman filled that role, confirming signals, knowing the route, e.t.c.
If the FAA determines that safety dictates certain changes to planes, the airlines that own/operate those planes are responsible for the costs.
I do not see why the rest of the country should pay the cost of upgrading the rail system used solely in one relatively small part of the U.S.. That should be the province of the states/communities actually served by that service.
Mandating speed governors on commuter rail sounds like it might be one of the more helpful steps -- several of the recent fatal accidents appear to have excessive speed as a cause or major contributing factor.
I do not see why the rest of the country should pay the cost of upgrading the rail system used solely in one relatively small part of the U.S.. That should be the province of the states/communities actually served by that service.
Mandating speed governors on commuter rail sounds like it might be one of the more helpful steps -- several of the recent fatal accidents appear to have excessive speed as a cause or major contributing factor.
3
For the same reason, people in cities have to pay for highways in Colorado. We are one country and one nation indivisible; or not???
41
I don't ride on the roads in your state; I've never even been there. Why should I help pay to maintain them?
4
"Small part of the US" - really? Geography is not taught well in the US - we know this because Europeans know more about our map than we do! As for the Northeastern Corridor of Amtrak - well, if you are not willing to contribute to the infrastructure that drives commerce and incomes here, then you are not entitled to the tax money generated by the same commerce and incomes. We'll be happy to keep it for use here, exclusively in the Northeast, and not allow less populated states to have it for their highways and 'homeland security' problems, imaginary as those are in the West. Seems that places like Wyoming get better funding for antiterrorism programs than New York, know, who coulda thought of that? We wonder...
3
How was the train already going 100 mph in the city so soon after ti left 30th st station?
7
The accident site is at least six miles north of 30th Street Station.
4
There aren't any back up safety measures for passengers---when motormen go too fast---because of budgetary constraints which is part of the overall dislike for non-auto transit alternatives by many in Congress.
11
For years, the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) insisted the reason for limited speeds on the NE Corridor is cause of the large trains. And that the reason for the large trains was to ensure was passenger safety in the event of accident.
One has to ask the question - If passenger safety is the first priority, how did one accident cause so many casualties?
One has to ask the question - If passenger safety is the first priority, how did one accident cause so many casualties?
2
The train was going twice the speed limit yet let's talk about infrastructure.
I fail to see the connection.
I fail to see the connection.
15
Brake failure? (40 year old equipment). Signal failure? (80 year old signal system). An inherently poor alignment of track (most other parts of the world with lines like this have straightened out these kinds of curves).
We don't know yet. But people can and will comment on infastructure because we know full well that since President Reagan cut the Northeast Corridor upgrades short of their original goal in the early 1980s, it's been essential repairs only. Well, the bill's due. The infrastructure is worn out. And I-95 and the airports don't have room for the overflow, and they're pretty worn out too.
I suppose we could always go back to walking or hitching a ride on a mule.
We don't know yet. But people can and will comment on infastructure because we know full well that since President Reagan cut the Northeast Corridor upgrades short of their original goal in the early 1980s, it's been essential repairs only. Well, the bill's due. The infrastructure is worn out. And I-95 and the airports don't have room for the overflow, and they're pretty worn out too.
I suppose we could always go back to walking or hitching a ride on a mule.
10
If the train had GPS mated with speed-control technology on board and the curve had a banking (retro-fitted) to permit the higher speed, this incident may not have happened. The infrastructure design can & should be be up-graded to allow operation at a higher and safe speed. We do not yet know exactly why it was exceeding the safe speed limit. Was it operator error or a mechanical failure?
That locomotive is less than 18 months old, and has probably been in service for less than one year.
There is 40 year old rail equipment in punishing daily service right now, and some of it outperforms the new stuff. If properly maintained, rail equipment can remain in service for over 50 years. Eventually, it becomes economically obsolete and should be replaced then, but not merely to satisfy some whim for novelty.
Signals can last 100 years; the New York subway used their original system for that long. It was built rater well to begin with. Throwing away capital equipment simply because it is old is pure waste, and the replacement is often of lower quality than the proven items.
There is 40 year old rail equipment in punishing daily service right now, and some of it outperforms the new stuff. If properly maintained, rail equipment can remain in service for over 50 years. Eventually, it becomes economically obsolete and should be replaced then, but not merely to satisfy some whim for novelty.
Signals can last 100 years; the New York subway used their original system for that long. It was built rater well to begin with. Throwing away capital equipment simply because it is old is pure waste, and the replacement is often of lower quality than the proven items.
I'm so shocked that this could happen after the recent tragedy in Spuyten Duyvil. This seems like an eerily similar crash.
2
Why do we allow humans drive these machines?
4
Union contracts.
How difficult would it be to install a governor in these trains so the engineer is not allowed to drive it at twice the speed limit?
18
100 mph in dangerous 50 mph zone and we blame Republicans in Congress. Wow. Facts are stubborn things.
18
when not enough money is allocated for upkeep and safety impovements, yes it is the Republicans fault.
37
Before suggesting that we let the Republicans in Congress off the hook for allowing our infrastructure to fall apart, please prove that decaying infrastructure does not cause accidents and is in fact a good thing.
24
First of all, both Republicans and Democrats have spent decades neglecting our infrastructure and yes, decaying infrastructure causes accidents. However, I am not directly attribute decaying infrastructure to this accident - especially when the facts say otherwise. To make this about Republicans in Congress is a partisan cheap shot.
In these days of inexpensive automation, it is a shame that the trains are not retrofitted with "auto-pilot" to adjust speeds according to the predetermined GPS locations. It doesn't even need to put any sensors and wireless communication devices all along the tracks. It is that simple.
168
Am I the only one who has found myself on a NYC subway train from time to time that seemed to be traveling at 100 miles per hour? What is the check point for this?
In our modern world, it no longerreasonable to expect the engineers who actually run our trains to be sober, not be under the influence of drugs and have the sense to not run a train at 100 mph in a 50 mph zone? Can we trust no employee to do a proper job, but instead must install technology that makes trains idiot proof? If thesis the case we have bigger Robles than one train crash, horrific as it is.
same could be said for cars.
May the engineer speak...
May we remember Freud's first defense: denial.
May we remember Freud's first defense: denial.
1
To everyone who is using this accident to "prove" their pet arguments about failing infrastructure or supposed problems with government funding of Amtrak, I invite you to compare deaths and injuries per passenger per mile between travelling on Amtrak and travelling by automobile to help yourself put this accident in some perspective. It is absolutely a tragedy, but we can be glad that the reason it is so disturbing is that it so rarely happens. Especially as my fellow drivers spend more and more time texting and talking on their smartphones, or even watching movies (!), while they drive, I will continue to feel a million times safer on the rails, including the Northeast Regional.
13
If we had a better rail infrastructure that was efficient, timely and cost-effective got us to where we wanted to go like to work every day, then automobile fatalities would decrease.
2
Tragic. Maybe the U.S. Congress will see how important infrastructure money is to maintaining all rail transit along with highways, airports, and bridges.
Republicans also drive and ride trains and planes. Not a partisan issue.
Republicans also drive and ride trains and planes. Not a partisan issue.
10
I'll bet this engineer is making north of $100 k. For that kind of money can we expect him to show up sober, rested, and attentive with his phone turned off?
It's terrible, granted. But some perspective: 90 people will die today in the US from automobile accidents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year
It is the fault of news media - and our inability to retain focus on what's important in the long term - that more minor minor (in the scheme of things) accidents take *massive* precedence over major, long-term problems.
It is the fault of news media - and our inability to retain focus on what's important in the long term - that more minor minor (in the scheme of things) accidents take *massive* precedence over major, long-term problems.
8
If engineer was alone, and this was human error, it needs to be corrected today by staffing with two persons in the cab. I thought they were looking into this after the engineer at the Spuyten Duyvil wreck blacked out and approached at too high a speed. A second person could have stopped the train if engineer became incapacitated.
10
The Spuyten Duvil crash was of an MTA Metro-North train, and in fact a rule was adopted to place a conductor or other worker in the cab whenever a train approaches a dangerous curve. That rule would not apply to Amtrak.
Thanks for correction. I say two person front end crews beginning today at all times, not just on curves.
Only projects that Congress pays for, which is none. By the way, the train was moving 100 mph in a 50mph zone.
3
If only some good could at least come from this tragedy with funds to make our rails safe, as well as our bridges (even politicians and the one percent need to use bridges), along with providing jobs in the process. I vote for raising the gasoline tax to pay for it.
www.confessionsofaworrywart.com
www.confessionsofaworrywart.com
10
No battery powered emergency lights in train cars? Say whatttttt?????
14
Lots of comments about seatbelts on trains, but the number of injuries and fatalities on trains is remarkably low. There's little evidence that requiring such modifications would be beneficial relative to the cost (and yes, that is actually relevant) or that people would use them. Additionally one of the pluses of the train is that you can create around, go to the diner or club car, etc. Nothing in life is without risk and rail travel is very, very safe. So are planes, where seatbelts are required and essential but the physical dynamics and movement are significantly different.
69
200 injuries and 7 dead is NOT a "remarkable low" number. Please reread the article. Seat belts would have made a difference. Just what is a human life worth to you? Are you a fiscally conservative Republican by chance?
1
One can say the same thing about air travel and seat belts (safe travel mode, freedom to move around -- when appropriate, on a plane, etc.) but having seat belts as a passenger safety option on trains and buses should be mandatory.
Oh, yeah... of course... what's a few deaths now and then, if Congress, which flies around in private jets and hired limousines, can keep nickle-and-diming any concept of public rail transportation? As always, Money, and seeing that it goes to those who already have the most of it... that's The American Way. Sickening.
I do not understand why train speed cannot be automatically regulated within certain limits so that speeding is almost impossible.
23
Call Japan. Amtrak should buy immediately the Mag/Lev train technology from the Japanese and begin to replace the rolling stock and railbed along the Atlantic corridor. The new high speed trains are safer and quieter than the old stuff that is simply worn out. Travel between NY and Phila. and Washington should be fast, safe, and inexpensive.
9
Sure thing... and I should be buying the crown jewels from Westminster tomorrow. Please write us both a check.
Being from FL, there is more than 50/50 odds that you would vote for austerity -- but please protect my Social Security and Medicare from the grabby hands of the government!
Being from FL, there is more than 50/50 odds that you would vote for austerity -- but please protect my Social Security and Medicare from the grabby hands of the government!
Congressional refusal to provide the necessary funding for infrastructure repair - purportedly because it would grow the government - is to blame. Not everyone can, or does, use a car to get around, nor should they.
24
Or, as is much more likely, going twice the appropriate speed limit on that section of track is to blame.
Plus the roads are terrible and overloaded as well. We need to spend on infrastructure while bond yields are low and materials and labor are low as well. Fund it with an increase in the gas tax, long overdue.
1
Whether the MTA in Mew York (Metro North, LIRR, NJ Transit) or AMTRAK, incompetent, inept, uncaring railroad management are killing Americans. Over the past two years, multiple railroad accidents have killed a dozen or more people. Imagine an airline with such a record. Chuck Shumer would be on his Sunday morning stump calling for heads to roll. Only governments can get away with such criminal negligence. Next time you're on Amtrak train heading south to DC, take a look at the rusting hulk of a railroad bridge underneath you in Newark. It literally scares me when I'm on it. When will they pay attention to that! It's more death toll waiting to occur and not one government bureaucrat gives a tinkers damn!
3
Oh you will hear the politicos tell you we are a national of car owners and drivers and that is why so much more of our budgets are dedicated towards highway infrastructure vs actually upgrading, repairing or replacing the 100 + year old infrastructure that supports the rail networks. When I've questioned this in the past I get answers like we are a nation of drivers or Americans prefer to fly. Yet, when I look at the state of our road and bridge network and the state of US airlines and our airports, I often think like Joe Biden did that we are in the 3rd world.
1
There are those in government who support a rigorous maintenance program for our rail network, highways, etc. Don't blame government in general. Blame the individual politicians who refuse to finance infrastructure projects, and who instead insist on lowering taxes for the extremely wealthy and the corporations. We can't have safe bridges without taxes - it's as simple as that. There IS a difference between good government and bad government, and the sooner we commit ourselves toward rebuilding our dilapidated infrastructure - which is a duty of a GOOD government - the sooner we can stop these tragedies from happening.
2
Story out that alleges train was going 100 mph at time of accident. This cries out for IMMEDIATE installation of Positive Train Control on all AMTRAK trains, which would have overrode engineer controls in speed zone. Don't know all facts yet, but is pointing to human error. Much more to come.
8
Amtrak and the Class I railroads are working on PTC but is estimated to cost up to $22 Billion. There were 11 train fatalities (including freight) attributed to excessive speed from 2000-2015. There are already less expensive systems in operation, and they work. Amtrak has one on the NE Corridor - something was not functioning for this train to have hit 100mph in a 50mph zone.
1
I've ridden the Philadelphia-NY train many times. The crew takes it pretty easy getting out of 30th St. station, to the N. Philadelphia station and then onward through the railyards and industrial areas. Where the wreck happened is about where the trains start picking up speed IIRC. Could have been a loose rail on that curve?
5
If it was, the NTSB will never say it was. The tracks belong to CSX, and the NTSB is stacked with former "favorite" CSX employees.
Pilot error - and Thanatos - are probable cause - whether on Amtrak at this same spot where 79 soldiers died in 1943, blaming a hot box, not more - or the Lufthansa jet flown into the ground. As some will say, accidents do not happen, they are caused. Bruno Bettelheim had a theory: we make mistakes for a reason that we will or cannot share... even with ourselves.
So, in a world were we can control a nuclear reaction, are we to believe that we cannot control the speed of a train going around a turn?
Please.
So, in a world were we can control a nuclear reaction, are we to believe that we cannot control the speed of a train going around a turn?
Please.
7
This is very sad. As with 99 per cent of plane crashes, this might be due to pilot (or train operator) error.
1
Positive Train Control is the name of the system, and it needs installed on all Amtrak trains, then on freights too. TODAY we need to put two persons in the cab because PTC is years away. Second person would not even have to be an engineer. just someone who can hit stop button if engineer blacks out, runs a signal or arrives for work drunk, drugged, e.t.c. Word is engineer in this case hit the curve at twice the speed limit. second person would have made a difference. Toxicology will be interesting, if not definitive.
Twice the speed limit? How could that possibly be?
22
IF the NTSB said it, without proof, I'm surprised they didn't say it was going 150 MPH. After all NTSB is a MAJOR fan of CSX, the track owners.
Asleep; blacked out; inattentive; drugged. TODAY a second person is needed in all Amtrak cabs!
It's easy! We just don't bother to invest in new technologies that introduce safe travel to our rail network. We get what we pay for.
4
100+mph into an infamously dangerous rail curve with 50mph limit. Wow.
7
Pause a bit with comments about personal grievances and biases which discussion of Amtrak always arouses. Some recognition is due for the effort of first responders, actually hundreds of them, and for the kindness shown by residents of the Philadelphia neighborhood who brought them water and snacks in the middle of the night. At this point, high speed is blamed, unofficially, as the cause. It's not surprising, seeing the mangled cars and imagining the enormous energy required to create such damage. A speed control system is planned but has not yet been installed in the area of the derailment. It could have saved some lives last night.
241
As could a second man in the cab. I'll assume there have been alcohol and drug tests.
I do cost benefit and financial analysis for a living. When doing these kind of calculations the government guidance says that the benefit of avoiding a fatality is about $6 million each.
So, in general when deciding where to allocate resources investing billions of dollars, saving a few lives does not generate enough "benefits" to justify the investment.
So, in general when deciding where to allocate resources investing billions of dollars, saving a few lives does not generate enough "benefits" to justify the investment.
My car cost 50K and has sensors to stop it or slow it down if necessary. If only Congress would fund mass transit as it should it would be easy to install sensors to stop or slow a train automatically if the train operator is incapacitated for any reason.
Our Congress is much more astute at spending billions to destroy than spending a dime to make our lives easier and safer.
Our Congress is much more astute at spending billions to destroy than spending a dime to make our lives easier and safer.
49
Forget Congress as they will do nothing. TODAY put a second man in the cab!
Maybe we could get rid of the union drivers and replace them with robots.
All major truck fleets use GPS governors to control and monitor vehicle speed. My car's GPS tells me when I am exceeding the speed limit and notifies me! WHY is that simple technology mandated on ALL trains?
If this turns out to be a speeding violation it is really a lack of proper management of the hardware that Amtrack is running on these public rights of way. They can easily limit speed without relying on the operator! Why isn't this required?
If this turns out to be a speeding violation it is really a lack of proper management of the hardware that Amtrack is running on these public rights of way. They can easily limit speed without relying on the operator! Why isn't this required?
4
positive Train Control needed, but, until that day, second man in the cab on all trains.
maybe he was texting or on the phone. That was the cause in a California train crash. Text messaging and missed a signal. Second person needed in all cabs.
I never thought I'd feel safer on the bolt bus than on Amtrak.
http://www.thecriticalmom.blogspot.com
http://www.thecriticalmom.blogspot.com
1
Seriously? Back in the fall, I had to drive to nearly to the NJ-Maryland line to rescue my daughter from an out-of-control Vamoose bus, contracted by Bolt, who was falling asleep at the wheel, barreling up the breakdown lane and weaving from lane to lane. Vamoose absolutely refused to tell us how or even if he was punished despite multiple reports by multiple passengers about his dangerous driving. So no, Bolt/Vamoose are not good alternatives for transit.
I know! The one time I took a Bolt bus the guy took off from Boston like a at out of hell, racing down I95 through pouring rain. As we tilted side to side, I was sure we were going to die. And yet I was safer on that ride than I would have been on this train. It is terrifying to imagine what other inevitable infrastructure failures lie in our future.
You may 'feel' safer on the bus right now, but you're not. Look it up, deaths per billion are far lower for Amtrak than car or bus travel.
1
Instead of funding mass transit, i.e., trains and their infrastructures at REASONABLE prices for the 99%, our U.S. government continues to fund the making of war and the Military Industrial Complex. Until people stop voting against their best interests, and government wakes up, poor transit systems here will continue to hobble along at extreme prices.
Yes, we can learn from the train system in Japan!
Yes, we can stop the destructive nature of our government.
Yes, we can learn from the train system in Japan!
Yes, we can stop the destructive nature of our government.
43
While I agree that we need faster trains, I'd point out that the accident has nothing to do with more infrastructure: there was a bend, there was a speed limit, and the train was going twice the speed limit and derailed.
Japan should have spent more on safe nuclear plants and less on trains,
Do we know why the driver was travelling at that speed? I thought there was a "dead man's hand" on the throttle ?
1
Train crews have been known to tape down or otherwise defeat these devices because they can be annoying. it has happened.
Before any data regarding the accident has been released, every commentator has NY Times seems to conclude that infrastructure investment is the problem. And one of those comments is featured as "NYT Picks", a little appalling before any evidence comes out. What if the engineer had been speeding? What if there was sabotage? What if...?
Never use a tragedy to advance your own political agenda, people!
Never use a tragedy to advance your own political agenda, people!
24
I disagree. If this were a highway accident, would you not mention the lack of a guard rail? Of course you wouldn’t. We're discussing relevant factors. In addition to looking at all other possibilities, we cannot not consider the role the shabby, overstressed and outdated state of our railway system may have played in this tragedy. This is exactly the time to highlight the fact that our railways (not to mention our highways and bridges) do not have the money for maintenance and repair, let alone upgrades and improvements -- improvements which might have mitigated the destruction this accident has wrought, regardless of whatever cause is concluded to be proximate -- and that is because Washington has continually brushed aside, unfunded and back-burnered projects to ‘fix it.’ Politics lie at the center of this issue, and when we see the bloody evidence of our government’s intransigence before our eyes, we have to remember that. It is a journalist’s job to keep us apprised of the back story even as we read about one individual accident. I do not feel the Times has been either inappropriate or insensitive in its commentary here. This is a matter of great urgency. We need Washington to get its act together. If we don't talk about it -- indeed, if we don't yell about it -- nothing will change.
The Obama administration has repeatedly ignored the request for devices that would automatically slow trains before they hit curves or areas which reduced speed is required. If this is another crash do to a train not slowing around a curve, the Obama administration should be held accountable and charges with depraved heart manslaughter.
1
I wonder if Obama should take the blame alone for this one alone ? In their fight to slash taxes on the wealthy the Republicans have reduced the amount of funding available for infrastructure. One has to wonder if other structures such as public roads and bridges are safe not to mention other Amtrak Lines and equipment. If people want safety you have to have the money to pay for it . Spending cuts are not always a good idea. Cutting taxes are not always a good idea.
1
Forget Obama! TODAY put a second person in all cabs! We can do that right now and hold the politics until later.
Excuse me, but the under-financing of Amtrak goes back at least to the early 1970's, when it was set up as a for-profit corporation - specifically to make it fail. Amtrak has been continually starved for nearly half a century. If you're going to blame a president, how about the Revered Ronald Reagan, who so wisely taught Americans that "Government IS the problem." Tell that to the Japanese, who have never experienced an accident on their government-financed bullet trains in the same half century.
I suppose Obama's "shovel ready" projects didn't include our aging rail lines. Does anyone even know whether there werany such projects?
7
Yeah, the new tunnels between New Jersey and New York that our governor axed.
6
As I recall, it was Chris Christie the genius of New Jersey who cancelled a new rail tunnel into Manhattan. I don't believe he is a Democrat.
17
Are you kidding- they hated on every project like that- this Congress can't get money for anything but shutting down Planned Parenthood.
6
Congress has blood on its hands!!!!!!
34
Heck this is nothing. Congress authorized the war in Iraq, causing about a third of a million times more deaths than this.
4
By "Congress" I assume you mean the fully Democrat controlled House and Senate from 2007-2011, and the Democrat controlled Senate from 2011 - 2015. Most of that time also with a Democrat President. That Congress, right?
4
NO he's referencing the greed Congress bought an paid for by the oligarchs who own the GOP. THe GOP who never met a fake war or a new piece of military equipment they wouldn't throw money at but can't manage to fund infrastructure in the US.
2
Train was going 100 mph is a 50 mph zone. Blame the driver and not the public and their reluctance to throw more money at a shoddy service.
14
How do you know this?
1
You have proof of this or are you just being a Republican and saying what ever sounds best to support your views regardless of the truth and what harm it will do to the nation by saying it?
1
It's shoddy because it has never been properly financed.
We had a severely cold winter. Yesterday temps in this area hit the 90's. would not be surprised if the rail split -pulled away from it's anchors causing the derailment.
7
I hear you but that's not exactly how rails work.
Um -- yeah it is.. I've ridden many a train, inspected many a track close up as a lifelong train buff and it you think that rails don't buckle and pull apart, then you haven't looked at rails very closely or realize the things that can happen to rails.
The Times reports: "Amtrak canceled service between New York and Philadelphia." At one time there was alternative train service between New York and Philadelphia, and on to Washington, via the Central of New Jersey, Reading, and Baltimore & Ohio railroads.
One could travel between New York and Philadelphia on the Reading "Crusader," and between New York and Washington on the B&O "Royal Blue."
With the consolidation of railroad operations (both passenger and freight) on fewer busy main routes, only limited options remain for maintaining service via detour routes in case of accidents.
One could travel between New York and Philadelphia on the Reading "Crusader," and between New York and Washington on the B&O "Royal Blue."
With the consolidation of railroad operations (both passenger and freight) on fewer busy main routes, only limited options remain for maintaining service via detour routes in case of accidents.
12
Railroads are extremely expensive to build and maintain. I dont think we need one as a backup because a railroad engineer was traveling at twice the speed limit.
I like Pres. Obama, voted for him and donated to his campaign funds.
But his lack of vision let alone execution when it comes to the massive infrastructure improvement programs he could have instigated, to create jobs and bring the U.S. into the 21st century, will be a lifelong disappointment. Roads, bridges, highways, the alternative energy infrastructure, railroads, airports, the list goes on. So sad and backward.
But his lack of vision let alone execution when it comes to the massive infrastructure improvement programs he could have instigated, to create jobs and bring the U.S. into the 21st century, will be a lifelong disappointment. Roads, bridges, highways, the alternative energy infrastructure, railroads, airports, the list goes on. So sad and backward.
34
"House Panel Votes to Cut Amtrak Budget
As investigators began working through the wreckage of a derailed train in Philadelphia, the House Appropriations Committee on Wednesday rejected an amendment to increase funding for Amtrak.
The amendment, offered by Representative Chaka Fattah, Democrat of Pennsylvania, would have increased funding an additional $1.31 billion to the level in President Obama’s budget request, increasing the amount available for Amtrak to $2.45 billion. It failed by a 21-30 vote."
Please educate yourself before you join the blame Obama crowd.
As investigators began working through the wreckage of a derailed train in Philadelphia, the House Appropriations Committee on Wednesday rejected an amendment to increase funding for Amtrak.
The amendment, offered by Representative Chaka Fattah, Democrat of Pennsylvania, would have increased funding an additional $1.31 billion to the level in President Obama’s budget request, increasing the amount available for Amtrak to $2.45 billion. It failed by a 21-30 vote."
Please educate yourself before you join the blame Obama crowd.
22
I guess you don't recall his proposals to fund infrastructure being greeted by the GOP-led House with enormous resistance?
19
I think it is the fault of the Congress rather than the fault of the President.
It is the House of Representatives that determines the expenditures required and allocates funding for the nation's necessities.
President Obama has called for - more than once - attention to be given to the infrastructure and the attendant needs of our society.
Have you considered taking a course in Civics 101.
It is the House of Representatives that determines the expenditures required and allocates funding for the nation's necessities.
President Obama has called for - more than once - attention to be given to the infrastructure and the attendant needs of our society.
Have you considered taking a course in Civics 101.
7
Perhaps let Amtrak run itself into ground so it's easier to convince the American people to privatize our national railroad system and the same applies to our Postal Services and Medicare Advantage.
12
Privatize a monopoly that the average person relies on and one guarantees pricing it out of reach of most of the middle class, nearly immediately. Spoken like a shortsighted Republican there.
30
Privatize? That's just what we need: more and bigger companies to enrich their CEOs on the backs of the middle class. By financially squeezing the USPS, Amtrak, and Medicare, the Republicans are trying their mightiest to strangle these fine services, which average people depend on, with an end toward privatization. And then watch fares and fees skyrocket! We need more money to strengthen these public resources to enhance their reliability, safety, and utility.
52
Amtrak inherited the PRR's mainline, where this occurred, in 1971 – but the PRR and its successor Penn Central last did any serious work on it in 1937 when they electrified it. So don't expect the private sector to do much better; it has already proved its unwillingness to do so.
19
NAW, Governments would never derail trains, would they?
I harken back to the Train Wrecks and Subway Disasters in Spain and England, blamed on Terrorists, and the "timing of them". The Obama administration has made "Timing" it's Hallmark.
May 7, 2015 By (The New York Times) Editorial Board
“The Illegal Phone-Data Sweeps” "There is a lot to praise in the powerful ruling issued by a three-judge federal appeals panel in New York on Thursday, which held that the government’s vast, continuing and, until recently, secret sweep of Americans’ phone records is illegal."
On June 1st, 2015 the US Congress might just renew the NSA’s authorities concerning these (now) determined to be—“illegal activities”.
Americans who wish to remain free from illegal spying and surveillances by the National Security Agency and other secret US government and sub-contracted agencies, should contact their Congressional Representatives to make their opinions known. To do nothing would be a tragedy.
Sometimes mere voting is just not enough.
18 days remain
I harken back to the Train Wrecks and Subway Disasters in Spain and England, blamed on Terrorists, and the "timing of them". The Obama administration has made "Timing" it's Hallmark.
May 7, 2015 By (The New York Times) Editorial Board
“The Illegal Phone-Data Sweeps” "There is a lot to praise in the powerful ruling issued by a three-judge federal appeals panel in New York on Thursday, which held that the government’s vast, continuing and, until recently, secret sweep of Americans’ phone records is illegal."
On June 1st, 2015 the US Congress might just renew the NSA’s authorities concerning these (now) determined to be—“illegal activities”.
Americans who wish to remain free from illegal spying and surveillances by the National Security Agency and other secret US government and sub-contracted agencies, should contact their Congressional Representatives to make their opinions known. To do nothing would be a tragedy.
Sometimes mere voting is just not enough.
18 days remain
1
One issue to consider is to open this rail line as soon as possible rather than to delay it too much. The reason being that each day the lines are closed there will be more car traffic and hence more car accidents with fatalities. This is a lesson from a big train accident in London Paddington where prolonged investigations led to a spike in car use and an increase in traffic fatalities by much more than the number of fatalities in the train accident.
8
As the rest of the world moves forward in modern transportation technology, (think The Jetsons), the US is stuck in time in the stone age, (think Flinstones).
Has anyone traveled outside of the country lately or over the past 10 years?
Our infrastructure is decrepit and disgraceful.
Get used to more of these sort of occurrences on a regular basis.
Remember, just this past winter when the city of Boston had to shut down its MBTA subway system because of SNOW! Yes, snow.
And be careful traveling over the Sagamore and Bourne bridges this summer to Cape Cod. The paint is holding the rust together. Seriously.
Has anyone traveled outside of the country lately or over the past 10 years?
Our infrastructure is decrepit and disgraceful.
Get used to more of these sort of occurrences on a regular basis.
Remember, just this past winter when the city of Boston had to shut down its MBTA subway system because of SNOW! Yes, snow.
And be careful traveling over the Sagamore and Bourne bridges this summer to Cape Cod. The paint is holding the rust together. Seriously.
159
Pilgrim we Congress can't possibly devote money to infrastructure. We need that 100 billion per year plus another 700 billion to wage war!
Our government specialty is in blowing things up, not building things.
Our government specialty is in blowing things up, not building things.
2
Thanks for letting me know about the conditions of the bridges leading to Cape Cod. Given these conditions, and given the fact that a town on the upper Cape gave me a $300 parking ticket for a momentary stop in a handicapped parking spot, my choice is clear: I will not go to the Cape this summer.
As far as Amtrak goes, years ago I used to take the train between Boston and my original hometown of Philadelphia. I loved the trip and never tired of looking at all the scenes as the train passed through. But then train tickets became so expensive that it was unaffordable to take the train.
It's sad that we live in a me-first society that doesn't value investing in public works. Yes, America has become a third-world country.
As far as Amtrak goes, years ago I used to take the train between Boston and my original hometown of Philadelphia. I loved the trip and never tired of looking at all the scenes as the train passed through. But then train tickets became so expensive that it was unaffordable to take the train.
It's sad that we live in a me-first society that doesn't value investing in public works. Yes, America has become a third-world country.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the families and friends who lost loved ones in this disaster.
If indeed this accident, like so many others in the US, is due to our failing infrastructure, we need to stop calling the US an exceptional country.
We have long ago stopped being an exceptional country on so many levels.
Just take our political system. The money that is spend on our elections would go along way repairing our infrastructure while at the same time creating jobs.
As far as the infrastructure is concerned most European countries and Japan are way ahead of the US. When will the public demand that our bridges, railroad tracks and its equipment, gas lines, water mains and sewer systems are repaired? I would think people in Congress care but it seems like not so much.
If indeed this accident, like so many others in the US, is due to our failing infrastructure, we need to stop calling the US an exceptional country.
We have long ago stopped being an exceptional country on so many levels.
Just take our political system. The money that is spend on our elections would go along way repairing our infrastructure while at the same time creating jobs.
As far as the infrastructure is concerned most European countries and Japan are way ahead of the US. When will the public demand that our bridges, railroad tracks and its equipment, gas lines, water mains and sewer systems are repaired? I would think people in Congress care but it seems like not so much.
734
But aren't we the best Update NY? Rep. Peter T. King (NY) is always telling us in his various sound-bites "we have the best this the best that... in the world". Politicians don't lie.
"... due to our failing infrastructure, we need to stop calling the US an exceptional country..."
"If indeed this accident, like so many others in the US, is due to our failing infrastructure"
It's indeed not due to failing infrastructure. It's because he was going way too fast -- it's in the headline, if you read it. If a driver of an SUV topples over taking a curve, you think it was because the roads were bad?
It's indeed not due to failing infrastructure. It's because he was going way too fast -- it's in the headline, if you read it. If a driver of an SUV topples over taking a curve, you think it was because the roads were bad?
IF nothing else is wrong, speed might have been a factor on that sharp turn. Amtrak has been hanging on the edge for decades. Mass transportation can help reduce emissions and slow down the extreme weather change we have seen recently. Not maintaining our infrastructure will come back to bite us sooner than we expect it. How can we make Congress responsible for these deaths? Vote the right people in.
47
I just traveled in Southern France and we used a tour bus regularly. We were required to wear seat belts and the engine of the bus wouldn't start until the driver took an automatic breathalyzer test. I have often wondered why seat belts aren't required on US busses, trains and school busses. I think they would eliminate injuries of people being "thrown around". But if Amtrak is loosing money from congress this year, I doubt that would happen. What a pity.
20
Statistically the incidence of fatalities in buses and trains are very, very low, making the mass installation of these restraints of dubious value. Compliance is another matter. On planes where they are required (for one thing the forces are much higher and you can move in different directions such as up and down) it's hard to get people to put them on, keep them on or wear them in the correct manner (i.e, tight, not just fastened but so loose you have inches of slack).
1
My condolences to all affected.
As compared to the Acela, the NE regional is still a good deal in some instances - $52 DC to NYC - but the equipment is old, some dating back to the 1970s. How can this be?
Europe and Japan, both with aging populations and shrinking economies, seem to prioritize mass transit differently than we do here in the land of the automobile.
From Wikipedia:
The passenger cars are the rebuilt Amfleet I series passenger cars built by the Budd Company in the mid to late 1970s.
Electric locomotives, including the AEM-7 class, built 1978–1987 with 5800 horsepower (4.3 MW), the rebuilt AEM-7AC with 7000 horsepower (5.2 MW), and the ACS-64 built 2012-2015 with 8600 horsepower (6.4 MW), the last of which is set to replace the previous two.
As compared to the Acela, the NE regional is still a good deal in some instances - $52 DC to NYC - but the equipment is old, some dating back to the 1970s. How can this be?
Europe and Japan, both with aging populations and shrinking economies, seem to prioritize mass transit differently than we do here in the land of the automobile.
From Wikipedia:
The passenger cars are the rebuilt Amfleet I series passenger cars built by the Budd Company in the mid to late 1970s.
Electric locomotives, including the AEM-7 class, built 1978–1987 with 5800 horsepower (4.3 MW), the rebuilt AEM-7AC with 7000 horsepower (5.2 MW), and the ACS-64 built 2012-2015 with 8600 horsepower (6.4 MW), the last of which is set to replace the previous two.
23
The age of the locomotive is of very little account here unless it can be established that there was component failure in the running gear. An electric locomotive is a box on wheels holding a transformer. controls and air brake compressors and feeding power to four traction motors. Not a lot of mechanical complexity - basically a more-powerful trolley car pulling coaches. A derailment at a stress point - curved track within yard limits - either has to do with a mis-set switch, a failed piece of rail, overspeed or some sort of wheel/axle failure. That's assuming nobody sabotaged the train by jamming something into the track, like a piece of wooden crosstie cut short and fit crosswise between the rails, which would flip the train right off the track.
1
Europe and Japan have much more dense populations, which make train service far more practical -- they historically have had lower car ownership, which means more riders (with few other choices) -- and they have very, very high taxes to pay for this. They can afford that, because we provide their military defense, for free, on our own dime.
I'm seeing all the usual comments about how in Europe every town is connected by train. But we have to consider two major differences. One is that Europe's gas taxes are astronomical, and that forces people to take the train for economic reasons. We should do the same, but, politically, there's no chance of that. The other is that America is a much larger country and much of it is suburban. Only in a few regions such as the Northeast Corridor does train travel fit the sweet spot between "too long to drive" and "too short to justify going to the airport." The Northeast Corridor badly needs high speed passenger rail, but in most areas of the nation, it just doesn't make economic sense to increase service or invest hugely in infrastructure.
If we really wanted to do something smart, we'd eliminate the subsidies for the long-distance passenger train lines that nobody uses and put the money into quality high speed service in commuter rail and lines like the Northeast Corridor, where they do make sense.
If we really wanted to do something smart, we'd eliminate the subsidies for the long-distance passenger train lines that nobody uses and put the money into quality high speed service in commuter rail and lines like the Northeast Corridor, where they do make sense.
49
Or we could have an infrastructure bank that prioritizes federal spending on infrastructure. A high speed train from Union Station steps from the Capitol to NYC via cities like Balto and Philly would make sense and could expand south around the horrendous traffic snarl in No.Va.
My guess is that Republicans are waiting for the unemployment rate to come down and interest rates to go up so the project can cost twice as much as it would have cost 5 years ago when we were desperate for investment. Why the discussion was about the "theory of stimulus" or other fad economic theories is beyond me.
My guess is that Republicans are waiting for the unemployment rate to come down and interest rates to go up so the project can cost twice as much as it would have cost 5 years ago when we were desperate for investment. Why the discussion was about the "theory of stimulus" or other fad economic theories is beyond me.
20
Josh your right there is no way that the type of rail network that operates in Europe will work in USA. High speed trains of the same type of design (which have crumple zones and other safety features) used across Europe, would work on the LA- San Fran route and other routes like but not on East-West routes
3
It is a myth spread by the Auto/Oil/Tire/Sprawl lobby for years that the US is somehow "too rural" for Green public transit. In fact even the Federal Highway Administration admits that 79% of Americans live in urbanized areas. Even more telling is the Brookings 2011 study which showed that in the top 100 US metro areas ALREADY 70% of working age people live only 3/4th mile from a transit stop! However only 30% of those people could reach a job even during peak hours in less than 90 minutes. This is due to infrequent service, over-reliance on buses when the US still has 233,000 miles of Rail, poor connections, no local-express services and no shuttles, bikepaths or sidewalks for the last mile.
Here is the Brookings Study which is of critical importance to study:
http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2011/05/12-jobs-and-transit
Just as the US did from 1942-45 we could solve this problem in short order for most Americans if we actually invested in Green Transit which would be cheaper, safer and greener and quadruple our Green transit ridership.
How?
1)restore the Operations funding to actually RUN trains and buses every 30 minutes
2)Add Tesla battery powered shuttles and buses to serve Rail hubs with charging stations at the endpoints
3)Add Express service along with Local service as the NY subway so successfully does
4)Add bicycle paths and bike programs
5)Add safe sidewalks for the last mile
After that restore sidings and Rail branch lines to service.
Here is the Brookings Study which is of critical importance to study:
http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2011/05/12-jobs-and-transit
Just as the US did from 1942-45 we could solve this problem in short order for most Americans if we actually invested in Green Transit which would be cheaper, safer and greener and quadruple our Green transit ridership.
How?
1)restore the Operations funding to actually RUN trains and buses every 30 minutes
2)Add Tesla battery powered shuttles and buses to serve Rail hubs with charging stations at the endpoints
3)Add Express service along with Local service as the NY subway so successfully does
4)Add bicycle paths and bike programs
5)Add safe sidewalks for the last mile
After that restore sidings and Rail branch lines to service.
2
I feel terribly for the people who lost their lives and who were injured. I have passed by that area on scam-trak many a time and the responsibility of who maintains that track falls to Amtrak, SEPTIC, er, SEPTA and the freight rail lines. Years ago when there was the big hoopla of Acela and low-speed rail travel, everyone knew this wouldnt work because they are using existing tracks with minimal upgrades (see concrete ties installed, then having to be ripped out, then having to be installed again). We are lucky if any amtrak train hits 85mph anywhere on the NorthEast Corrider route. Tell members of Congress that Amtrak needs more funding and the Republicans will try to cut more of what Amtrak already gets. When Amtrak then decides to cut the El Paso Texas Eagle or the Sunset Limited serving 3 or 4 people a day in the midwest, guys like Ted Cruz get on the phone and tell Amtrak to not mess with their unprofitable, Amtrak spur and tell them to cut something from the North East Corrider spur. Oh by the way, the North East Corrider spur is the most profitable region of the entire Amtrak train network.
70
serving 3 or 4 people a day
Is this an official statistic, or just your estimate of how many people there are out in the hinterlands? I have been on this train, and most of the seats and sleeping cars are full. And it is not used only by use 3 or 4 people in the Midwest - I have even met people from New Jersey on the train. Imagine that.
Is this an official statistic, or just your estimate of how many people there are out in the hinterlands? I have been on this train, and most of the seats and sleeping cars are full. And it is not used only by use 3 or 4 people in the Midwest - I have even met people from New Jersey on the train. Imagine that.
5
Quite frankly, I have never been able to get enthusiastic about Acela. The time differences on the northeast corridor are not all that great, and neither are the amenities on the train. And I believe it is for the reason you have stated: why would anyone put a new train on old track and consider this 'improvement?'
Makes no sense to me.
I sense that this disruption is going to be massively inconvenient, to say the very least. Non-east coast types may be unaware of how heavily used this particular route is. Sold out trains are the norm.
Makes no sense to me.
I sense that this disruption is going to be massively inconvenient, to say the very least. Non-east coast types may be unaware of how heavily used this particular route is. Sold out trains are the norm.
It was an exaggeration in comparison to the true official data of the North East Corridor of Amtrak being its most profitable and the people who would defund Amtrak playing the NIMBY or cut Amtrak but dont cut our train line.
Today the Republican-controlled U.S. House of Representatives was set to move forward a bill cutting $100 million from Amtrak. Perhaps they'll take infrastructure problems a little more seriously now.
413
They need the money for another bomber or battle ship hand out..er...I mean program.
5
Really? The cause has been determined to be infrastructure? You must be on the dole yourself.
they should cut it all. Why save a money loser? Whats the point? If people don't like the train enough to make it profitable, then why force other people to essentially pay their fare for them?
1
Thank you for the coverage of the train accident at Frankford Junction, where there is a sharp S curve and a speed restriction of 30 mph. However, your command of railroad terminology is sorely lacking. An engine is not a car, it is an engine. So the train had an engine and six cars, not seven cars. Railroad lines have curves, rivers have bends. The conductor is in charge of the train and collects tickets; he or she does not operate the train. The train is operated by the engineer. In the UK, the operator is called the engine driver, and on the old Pennsylvania Railroad, he was called the engineman. Both my father and grandfather were at the accident scene in 1943 as physicians. They said the cause was excess speed, but that could be wrong.
44
And the Appropriations Commitiee just voted to cut funding to Amtrak.
Brilliant!
Brilliant!
278
Maybe the Appropriations committee should be suspended for 4 games for brain deflate gate. Boy do we vote in the cream of the crop in the US.
20
That's what the Repugs mean by American "exceptionalism" as in -- exceptionally stupid so much so that the country that led the world in railroading and expanding a nation by building the railroad across the country now wishes to be a Third World country in regard to public transit and particularly trains.
I rode Scotrail two years ago -- absolutely no resemblance to any train in the US. We should be embarrassed by how far behind the rest of the first world that we are in train travel.
I rode Scotrail two years ago -- absolutely no resemblance to any train in the US. We should be embarrassed by how far behind the rest of the first world that we are in train travel.
22
I had hoped that on the heels of such a tragedy they would have thought about this a bit more, but apparently not.
Depressing.
Depressing.
4
Curious that everyone is rushing to judge the "infrastructure" in this case.. while the fact is, the train derailed on a very sharp curve. The Amtrak line in this area is also very well maintained. My (educated) guess at this point is to say the train was over speed. We will find out after the investigation.
That is not to say I disagree about the lack of infrastructure funding, and Amtrak specifically. A stronger national passenger system funded by government subsidies would be beneficial in many way. I just hate to see this incident used as a piece of evidence for the need.
That is not to say I disagree about the lack of infrastructure funding, and Amtrak specifically. A stronger national passenger system funded by government subsidies would be beneficial in many way. I just hate to see this incident used as a piece of evidence for the need.
18
It's about more than just this particular derailment. The consensus overwhelming among civil engineers that are tasked with inspecting and analyzing the status and needs of our national infrastructure is clear: we are failing and dangerously so.
Perhaps it does take using a tragedy like this is garner more focused attention on the needs of the nation in this area. Clearly, status quo hasn't worked.
Perhaps it does take using a tragedy like this is garner more focused attention on the needs of the nation in this area. Clearly, status quo hasn't worked.
53
Our infrastructure in general is a pathetic. Perhaps when another major bridge falls into a river killing many -- we'll find the money to "fix" our country.
10
My heart goes out to everyone who had family and friends on that train. My little girl and parents were on it two days before, and I can imagine the horror of waiting to hear and hoping with everything you have that they are ok. Please - please, please, please - install seatbelts on the trains.
18
It's obvious: Not enough money is being spent on the improvement of Amtrak, or even on its maintenance. Now that we're going to be spending less on building prisons for non-violent drug offenses (I hope), surely there should be some funds available for trains. I'd like to see a great expansion of the Amtrak network to give people an alternative to what we have now: travel in miserable conditions on oversold plane flights or congested highways.
20
Since we don't yet know the cause of the accident, how is any conclusion obvious?
1
Would have been a lot worse if the cars had careened into (what appears to be) the many crude oil tankers parked on the side track. The aerial photos showing the proximity to all that fuel are stunning and frightening.
26
I don't see OIL tankers, though I do see tank cars. The image shows tank cars without placards, therefore they're non hazardous or empty. Tank cars containing oil, or any other hazardous material, are required to be placarded on all four sides. Just because it's a tank car, doesn't mean it contains fuel or oil. Corn syrup, vegetable oil, clay slurry, and lignosulfonate are just some of the other products carried in tank cars.
5
Could have been corn syrup in those tank cars for all you know.
3
If it had been corn syrup, that would have been an extremely sticky situation.
2
I clicked on the hyperlink to the article about the crash in 1943 references in the story. What is remarkable about that story, published the day after the deadly crash on Sept. 7, 1943, is that the reporters had a full list of all those killed, their ages and addresses as well as all those injured, their full names, addresses, nature of injuries and hospital, as well as an account of why the crash happened. How is it that they had that much information, before the internet and all our newfangled digital tools and today's stories in all the various news sites, don't have an account of why the crash happened, who was injured and killed, etc.? Has our world just become overcomplicated, or was the reporting better then?
22
In some respects the reporting was better. In other ways, all the gadgets seem to be complicating things and there are fewer reporters and editors working for fewer papers. TV stations and the internet don't have the same personal knowledge of local situations or players.
1
They didn't have HIPA and privacy laws so hospitals would readily tell reporters who was admitted. Also people didn't sue at the drop of a hat like today so the media is often overly cautious in identifying victims lest someone complain, claim they were harmed or distressed by the disclosure, etc. We've done all that to ourselves.
1
I'm sure the police and hospital spokesmen in the "good ol' days" gave out victims' personal information freely to the reporters who asked. Today it's a criminal offense to do that.
I am all for spending on trains in the NE corridor but it has to be said:
Many of the current tracks would need to be moved and/or straightened to support hi-speed modern trains that we see in other parts of the industrialized world.
That means considerable use of eminent domain in some of the most densely populated and developed cities and towns in the USA. China for example can do that because China can just tell everyone to move and then build a track there. I want hi-speed trains to happen but I ride Amtrak along the NE corridor and I see all of those inclines and curves from tracks mapped out and dating back to the industrial revolution.
Many of the current tracks would need to be moved and/or straightened to support hi-speed modern trains that we see in other parts of the industrialized world.
That means considerable use of eminent domain in some of the most densely populated and developed cities and towns in the USA. China for example can do that because China can just tell everyone to move and then build a track there. I want hi-speed trains to happen but I ride Amtrak along the NE corridor and I see all of those inclines and curves from tracks mapped out and dating back to the industrial revolution.
344
Where's Robert Moses when you need him?
Yes, exactly. This is precisely what eminent domain should be used for.
3
It's just this simple: Except in the northeast corridor Americans are not going to ride trains. They prefer their private car, their own schedule and avoiding having to sit by someone like, uh, maybe me! it's really a culture thing.
1
It's time to consider seatbelts on all commuter trains.
9
Have you ever rode Amtrak? People are constantly moving around the train. You should wear seatbelts at the dinner table, there could be an earth quake.
7
They run Amtrak on a shoestring budget and have the gall to try to make it smaller every year. Our rail system compared to Europe and Japan should be a national shame. Like Baltimore, our bridges, our highways and such have been neglected to the point of disgrace. We rebuild Iraq but can't rebuild our own infrastructure. The fact that high speed rail is not even on the drawing board is mind boggling. Rail tank cars just so old they fall apart spilling whatever toxic mix they have in them. Why not put people in towns like Baltimore to work rebuilding America? More than half the bridges in America is an accident waiting to happen. Getting ready for the old knee jerk reaction of this Amtrak tragedy someone will call for another study of the study of the study. Both sides of the aisle should be ashamed that while they fiddled America crumbled. Fifty votes to kill Obamacare how many votes to rebuild America? In truth it is our fault because we keep voting these bums into office. Anyone been to La Guardia airport recently? High speed rail would cut into the oil companies strangle hold on us the consumer. Better mass transit means less gasoline sold. That will be the day we think about the little guy. Cut taxes for the rich so they can buy more cars not us better trains!
487
I don't think any person can truly appreciate the vast difference between our rail system and that of Europe or, say, Japan, unless and until they've traveled using all of them. It is astounding how far we, as Americans, lag behind other developed nations in this area. Frankly, it's embarrassing and there is simply no excuse. No excuse. No more excuses!
10
But just wait, you will hear the folks here say "awww shucks, we are a nation of car drivers and airline flyers", we don't use the trains. Then ask those same awww shuckser's why our roads and bridges are crumbling, and we have to fly 3rd world airlines that use 3rd world airports (borrowing that last line from Joe Biden).
You should try Shanghai, where they run a maglev train to the airport (430km/hour - above 260mph) and run high speed rail all over the country. I can't even imagine the US building a train that would compare to the train that runs at high altitude between Chengdu and Lhasa, Tibet. When it comes to infrastructure and transportation, the US is just what we used to call a third-world country.
Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure. We are allowing our infrastructure to deteriorate and building far too little new infrastructure.
189
Just got back from Europe where transportation facilities, including railroads and airports, surpasses much of what we have in our "third world" infrastructure. This is the real story behind the Philadelphia tragedy.
325
The loss of life is truly sad but it was preventable. If we had a decent train system this probably wouldn't have happened. After I return from periodic trips to Japan, where the train system is wonderful, and ride NJ Transit, I feel embarrased for my country.
136
How about if instead of using 1 Trillion dollars to go fight a made up war, we use even half of that to fix our infrastructure?
633
I think you meant to say THREE Trillion dollars, and counting.
1
This comment started as a reply to another comment.
How can blame, particularly as to a political party, be assessed when officials don't even know. Why not wait for the NTSB to conduct and complete its investigation. From all available evidence thus far, it appears speed was the primary, if not sole, cause (anecdotal reports state that the train was doing 104 mph in a 50 mph zone - I have no idea whether that is true or not, so I will not accept that as fact). This country is always trigger happy to assess blame based on mere speculation.
As to those commenters blaming Republican cuts: 1) wait until the investigation is complete, and 2) if more funding is needed, please propose where we are to obtain the money. As of this morning, our nation debt stood in excess of $18.2 TRILLION. If our national debt doesn't scare the living daylights out of every U.S. citizen, then there must be a short circuit in the brain's logic mechanism. Borrow, borrow, borrow . . . spend, spend, spend.
As mother always said, "money doesn't grow on trees."
How can blame, particularly as to a political party, be assessed when officials don't even know. Why not wait for the NTSB to conduct and complete its investigation. From all available evidence thus far, it appears speed was the primary, if not sole, cause (anecdotal reports state that the train was doing 104 mph in a 50 mph zone - I have no idea whether that is true or not, so I will not accept that as fact). This country is always trigger happy to assess blame based on mere speculation.
As to those commenters blaming Republican cuts: 1) wait until the investigation is complete, and 2) if more funding is needed, please propose where we are to obtain the money. As of this morning, our nation debt stood in excess of $18.2 TRILLION. If our national debt doesn't scare the living daylights out of every U.S. citizen, then there must be a short circuit in the brain's logic mechanism. Borrow, borrow, borrow . . . spend, spend, spend.
As mother always said, "money doesn't grow on trees."
89
Let me think ............ wherever would the money come from?
Infrastructure instead of military adventurism?
Infrastructure instead of military adventurism?
246
As to how to obtain the money to do the desperately needed infrastructure repair, we could easily take it from our military budget and just mothball some nuclear subs or the like. Or we could tax the rich a little better, I recall Romney with all his wealth paid about 17% in taxes whereas the middle class tends to pay at least twice that. And as for this being the Republicans' fault, it is, they're the ones that fight infrastructure repair all the time.
106
Speaking of looking at facts before making policy, I suggest you look into that debt number. It certainly sounds frightening, and utterly unsustainable. What does it represent; is it the national debt, federal, public, public and private, just what is it? Where's it come from, that is who calculated it? Is it larger than before; is it calculated the same way it has been previously?
In fact, it's a right wing bloody rag, a baseless slogan used to inflame and distract the gullible. It is the exact equivalent of their social policy of "keep the (other) down" which they brought with them when the racist south switched to the GOP in the 60's.
Your mother also told you to be careful who you listened to, and about death and taxes.
Better remember what your mother told you than to keep swallowing the line from FAUX News.
In fact, it's a right wing bloody rag, a baseless slogan used to inflame and distract the gullible. It is the exact equivalent of their social policy of "keep the (other) down" which they brought with them when the racist south switched to the GOP in the 60's.
Your mother also told you to be careful who you listened to, and about death and taxes.
Better remember what your mother told you than to keep swallowing the line from FAUX News.
16
Infrastructure is crumbling, funding continues to be cut, lives are lost.
Hedge fund managers take home bonuses exceeding $1 billion each, for skimming the economy, and not building or producing anything.
Wake up America!
Hedge fund managers take home bonuses exceeding $1 billion each, for skimming the economy, and not building or producing anything.
Wake up America!
803
I am up. Do you want me to fly commercial again? Or take the train and mingle with common folk? Money makes money. That's intrinsic to me!
1
I wonder if the fault will ultimately due to a union employee conductor and not an old track.
3
What is the relevance of the hedge fund managers here? We know absolutely nothing about why the crash happened. The two are completely unrelated.
This morning my neighbors dog died because the vet prescribed the wrong medication. I had pancakes for breakfast and put no eggs in them. Wake up America!
This morning my neighbors dog died because the vet prescribed the wrong medication. I had pancakes for breakfast and put no eggs in them. Wake up America!
4
Obviously the 1% do not take the train.
268
No. They would own them if they were a good investment though!
1
Not true. There are many 1% riding along that route on Acela. The NY to DC train is quicker and more convenient than flights.
8
Actually, in the NE, many 1% folks do take the train. A non-sequitur anyway...
9
I work for a public utility and have to negotiate with the railroads all the time regarding crossings and easements and license agreements. The railroads are horrible to deal with. It's their way or no way except we are rethinking our ways of dealing with them as the cost of permits and crossings are tripling as well as the red tape. We will begin condemning their property as necessary.
The RR couch their requirements on "safety concerns." What a joke. We have never been involved in a safety incident with them. Their concerns obviously lie elsewhere as they continue to be involved in one incident after another, making money at the public's expense. The RR think they are too big to be reckoned with, but I beg to differ because the utilities and other companies that must cross are preparing to use the courts.
The RR couch their requirements on "safety concerns." What a joke. We have never been involved in a safety incident with them. Their concerns obviously lie elsewhere as they continue to be involved in one incident after another, making money at the public's expense. The RR think they are too big to be reckoned with, but I beg to differ because the utilities and other companies that must cross are preparing to use the courts.
5
Public utilities can't touch railroads, let alone condemn their property. You're way outside of your jurisdiction as they're federally regulated.
4
Why are we still relying on humans to control trains that travel too fast that a mistake usually results in a tragedy such as this? With the current GPS and computer controlled technologies it would be impossible to go into a turn at too high a speed. It would also prevent trains from being on the same track at the same time.
There have been too many avoidable train wrecks in recent history and the time has come to update the technologies so that commuters going or returning from work don't have to fear for their lives.
There have been too many avoidable train wrecks in recent history and the time has come to update the technologies so that commuters going or returning from work don't have to fear for their lives.
10
You assume human error on the part of the engineer (aka driver).
At the moment unless you know otherwise this is an accident with unknown cause and a sad tragedy.
At the moment unless you know otherwise this is an accident with unknown cause and a sad tragedy.
5
We are still relying on humans in this country to operate our railroads because humans are the backbone of the railroad. Speaking on behalf of every locomotive engineer in our country, we will fight to keep our jobs at the throttle. I would never trust a computer to operate my locomotive and neither should it's passengers.
Terrible accident in Philadelphia; I have ridden this section of line many times. My prayers go out to the train crew, passengers, and their families.
Terrible accident in Philadelphia; I have ridden this section of line many times. My prayers go out to the train crew, passengers, and their families.
13
I agree, however I support the implementation of PTC.
Condolences and prayers for all involved.
When will this country get its priorities straight?
When will this country get its priorities straight?
53
After we fund the military with more money. Oh and lets not forget government pensions. And all those foreign countries that need our funding. I could go on and on but I have a soap opera to watch! Wait, come to think of it, I live in a soap opera.
5
My deepest condolences to the families who lost loved ones.
Our infrastructure, and especially our train system in the US is a complete joke. In Europe or Japan, you can travel to any small down by train OR take a 300 mile journey in under 2 hours. We can't even keep them on the rails.
Our infrastructure, and especially our train system in the US is a complete joke. In Europe or Japan, you can travel to any small down by train OR take a 300 mile journey in under 2 hours. We can't even keep them on the rails.
307
Why aren't there seat belts on these trains? It's not unusual for trains to come to a sudden stop. Thanks to rotten track beds, standing up or walking on the trains can be hazardous. Our intercity train service is disgusting compared to France, Germany, Switzerland, Japan and most of the developed world. I'd compare it to India where derailments and injuries by rail are common.
54
I've ridden trains dozens of times in those countries.
3
I've ridden trains in France, they are fast, clean and the ride is smooth. Can't even compare it to ours in any way.
2
There's no mystery at all to this derailment. Trains have a very narrow wheel base and can only rock so much, and Am-tracks are very poorly maintained because Congress nickel and dimes Amtrak's budget because American politicians couldn't care less about people who ride Amtrak, and a train
(There are two trains a day between Charleston and Savannah, one at 5:30 in the morning. Most places in Europe, you wouldn't bother even checking the train schedule before catching a train between cities comparably important.)
Several months back, when gas prices were plummeting, I called at least three congresspeople to recommend they recommend a six-month emergency 10-cent-per-gallon gas tax, to go straight to Amtrak. That would have raised five billion dollars. Needless to say, the people on the other end of the phone thought I was from a different planet.
(There are two trains a day between Charleston and Savannah, one at 5:30 in the morning. Most places in Europe, you wouldn't bother even checking the train schedule before catching a train between cities comparably important.)
Several months back, when gas prices were plummeting, I called at least three congresspeople to recommend they recommend a six-month emergency 10-cent-per-gallon gas tax, to go straight to Amtrak. That would have raised five billion dollars. Needless to say, the people on the other end of the phone thought I was from a different planet.
1629
The tracks don't belong to Amtrak, THEY belong to CSX!!!
6
Great idea about the temporary gas tax. I used to work for Amtrak HQ during the Bush Administration (which wanted the company to go bankrupt). The company is working with bandaids and duct tape to keep things working and they do a remarkable job given how little money they are allocated to make capital improvements. Unfortunately, politics doesn't allow them to cut unprofitable routes in the mid-west.
I still take Amtrak but am appalled by all of the cost cutting yet the numbers of riders continue to grow. In some cases, the tracks and infrastructure are over 100 years old and badly need to be updated. We can't keep building roads and the NYC airports are at maximum capacity. We need to invest in passenger rail now.
My condolences to the people who were hurt and the families of those who were killed.
I still take Amtrak but am appalled by all of the cost cutting yet the numbers of riders continue to grow. In some cases, the tracks and infrastructure are over 100 years old and badly need to be updated. We can't keep building roads and the NYC airports are at maximum capacity. We need to invest in passenger rail now.
My condolences to the people who were hurt and the families of those who were killed.
20
Gas taxes are very high in Europe, so people have to use the train. Also, Europe is a much smaller place. Trains make sense for the Nrotheast Corridor and a few other heavily-populated corridors, not much sense elsewhere.
6
This is a tragic and terrible way to pay for deferred maintenance.
175
Just Wait ! We'll have one of those 100 car Rolling Petroleum Trains derail, and the explosions and fires will end up wiping out a town or village, quite probably in New York or New Jersey. But then in America we only begin to Fix these things based on the actual body counts (see Air Disasters for proof)
The RR workers unions are battling to force the major rail companies to employ 2 workers per freight train, while the management wants it reduced to one person per train. Ask them who's running the locomotive when the one engineer is the head taking a dump ?
The RR workers unions are battling to force the major rail companies to employ 2 workers per freight train, while the management wants it reduced to one person per train. Ask them who's running the locomotive when the one engineer is the head taking a dump ?
15
What makes you so sure that "deferred maintenance" cause this crash?
6
The irony is that those travelers were likely avoiding taking the same route by air. Having priced it, you don't save a lot by going on Amtrak vs taking a commuter jet.
I am so sorry and pray for all the victims and their families.
I am so sorry and pray for all the victims and their families.
6
if these people had been on a "commuter jet" and it had crashed they would ALL be dead, not just 6 of them---Rail travel is the safest form of transportation anywhere. As to the tea party types complaining about a govt. "subsidy" for AMTRAK, EVERY form of transportation is tax supported, its just that Amtrak receives a direct subsidy and all the others indirect support which allows congressmen to posture about saving taxpayer money.
34
If $ cost is your only consideration then maybe you don't save much but rail travel is environmentally more conciencous and also saves you the indignity of a TSA patdown or a backscatter xray scan.
11
You save a long trip to the airport. You save parking fees. You save standing in line forever in "security" check lines. You save sardine-can seating, deep-vein thrombosis, unruly fellow passengers, unhealthy air, canceled flights, missed connections, inedible food (if offered at all) ... oh yeah, air travel is much preferable ...
22
"But officials have long complained that the agency needs more subsidies from Congress to improve the railroad’s deteriorating infrastructure and replace aging equipment."
Good luck with that with the Republicans controlling Congress.
http://www.vox.com/2015/5/13/8597849/amtrak-crash-funding-cuts
More Cuts..cuts..cuts. No jobs...jobs...jobs.
Good luck with that with the Republicans controlling Congress.
http://www.vox.com/2015/5/13/8597849/amtrak-crash-funding-cuts
More Cuts..cuts..cuts. No jobs...jobs...jobs.
334
But tax cuts for the 1%.
101
What a tragedy. My heart goes out to everyone affected. My heart does not go out to US Airways, which just charged me $737 for a round-trip ticket to Westchester, NY.
102
If you're flying to Westchester you can probably afford it.
We need higher air fares across the board, and re-regulation, to make flying a civilized form of transportation again.
We need higher air fares across the board, and re-regulation, to make flying a civilized form of transportation again.
7
America's freight carriers are responsible for this. Along with the Republicans in Congress. Either the freight carriers should fix the tracks or the railroads should be nationalized.
107
Oh, you can bet that the tracks won't be blamed----THEY belong to CSX, and the NTSB is LOADED with former CSX employees! And if you think you can believe ANYTHING that comes out of the NTSB, watch the movie "TWA:Flight 800" and you will understand. And it's not about the people that were involved in that coverup, it's the culture of the entire NTSB!!!!!!
8
The right of way in question is owned by Amtrak.
10
Actually the tracks between DC and NYC are owned and controlled by Amtrak (Congress provides the funding to maintain them however). Elsewhere the freights own and maintain the tracks and Amtrak pays the freights a user fee for riding on them.
That said, the tracks are in rough shape, the tunnels are way too narrow (thus not allowing trains cars to cantilever properly so speeds are by necessity reduced), and the tunnels under the Hudson River are over 100 years old and need to be refurbished and made safer.
A former Amtrak employee.
That said, the tracks are in rough shape, the tunnels are way too narrow (thus not allowing trains cars to cantilever properly so speeds are by necessity reduced), and the tunnels under the Hudson River are over 100 years old and need to be refurbished and made safer.
A former Amtrak employee.
553
Why are there no seat belts on trains?
20
Most rail cars in the US were built before passenger seatbelt laws came into effect, same for road motorcoaches.
1
And the point would be...? And where do you get data that most motor coaches were built prior to the 80's or 90's?
Perhaps America's infrastructure is more outdated and in worse shape than it appears? Pump the money in updating and improving it and create jobs while you're at it.
591
Just think of the prosperity that would flow from putting our money into a 21st Century infrastructure. All we have to do is shake the horded treasure out of the pockets of the undertaxed billionaires and we could be living in a modern country just like we did in the 1950's.
237
It is a great idea- bot the GOP will not approve of it as the workers are not part of the 1%.
28
Nope Republicans say we cannot do that. It will cost too much.
Yet, We the People (Government) have to give more tax cuts to the none job creators so they can build more factories overseas and bring stuff back to sell at 100 times its cost. While they keep their money off shore and not pay taxes in the Country that is a fores them to be rich.
See the pattern, the American People (the peasants) pay them but they do not pay or care about this Country. It is like having 400 or 500 families of Kings and Queens that want tribute. And have paid to have it put into our tax code.
I do believe we won a war to keep from doing just this very thing.
Yet, We the People (Government) have to give more tax cuts to the none job creators so they can build more factories overseas and bring stuff back to sell at 100 times its cost. While they keep their money off shore and not pay taxes in the Country that is a fores them to be rich.
See the pattern, the American People (the peasants) pay them but they do not pay or care about this Country. It is like having 400 or 500 families of Kings and Queens that want tribute. And have paid to have it put into our tax code.
I do believe we won a war to keep from doing just this very thing.
22
The entire network of track and machinery need to be brought up to date.
Our rail system and our trains are a very important part of our national defense.