"It's the economy, stupid." - Which is exclusively controlled by the wealthy and for the wealthy.
1
I daresay angry tourist in Muskogee, Thomas E., could send his child down the street to buy milk and expect her back in no time, totally at peace. Dare try that where Thomas reports for duty to the Party. Is it all about the class struggle any more?
Tell you what - your 15-year-old is stuck at the beach without a ride. There re two - only two! - options for her ride back to civilization:
a small foreign sedan sporting Obama stickers and a California or NYS liscense plate, and -
an old Ford/Merc with Romey stickers and an Oklahoma plate.
YOU tell ME which one she should try first. This debate is over.
Tell you what - your 15-year-old is stuck at the beach without a ride. There re two - only two! - options for her ride back to civilization:
a small foreign sedan sporting Obama stickers and a California or NYS liscense plate, and -
an old Ford/Merc with Romey stickers and an Oklahoma plate.
YOU tell ME which one she should try first. This debate is over.
What exactly are the "benefits" of "a world of radically diminished moral constraint" that the right is ignoring?
1
The numbers of white teen pregnancies, in the South and elsewhere pale compared to those of the black community. Furthermore, whites are not immune from the effects of "the Great Society". Whites too are suffering from poverty and the effects of the Governments "solutions". The south has been poor since the civil war and more subject to poverty and its ills, black or white. This is changing, but it is not over.
1
Just another washed up reporter who probably needed to muster up a story to save his job. Numbers and stats? A whole paragraph of Merle Haggards song from 1969? Seriously? Lets have a real story. Have you ever been to Muskogee Mr. Edsall? I guarantee you don't have any idea about "the current state of affairs" in our town. And to suggest we are mostly republican (red) is debatable. Baltimore has over 14% crimes per 1000 citizens, Muskogee, about 8%. how can you compare that? Get your facts straight before you publish next time.
2
Your statistics are really interesting; your analysis is pretty dubious. What you're seeing with low-income whites is what we saw with low-income blacks some decades ago, and it had nothing to do with elite values. It had to do with the absence of the sort of job that could support a family. The change in morality is an effect, not a cause. Blaming it on liberals is a convenient excuse, but I'm surprised to see you doing it.
2
when ragging on what the hippies out in san Francisco do, Merle also proudly says White Lightnin's Still The Biggest Thrill Of All. its a mean little song that says what you do is bad while my vices are OK.
1
Bottom line is, such is life in a largely 'post-Christian' American culture.
1
THis is similar to what Ross Douthat was saying. All of these freedoms from following the norm may have wqorked for the educated and fiancial elite, but in the hands of the masses has produced a catastophe in the lives of the children involved. Regarding the 249 churches in Baltimore, first you have to go to them for them to have an effect. Secondly, as bad behaviors became destigmatized, those 249 churches likely got swamped by what was happening outside their doors in the public at large.
1
Science based sex education, including a good dose of self worth training for young women, personal responsibility training for young men, would be a good place to start changing.
2
So we agree that our problems are caused by irresponsibility, having children we can't afford or don't have the discipline to raise plus drugs and alcohol. Since we get more of what we subsidize and less of what we punish (or tax), I do not see either side having a solution. Which is why I refer to modern politics as pro wrestling, they are only their to energize their side and live for the next event.
Ideologues pander to our prejudice. Simple minded sloganeering so prominent in our FOX NEWS driven media world substitutes for considered, evidence based, principled social policy initiatives that support and enhance the growth and development of children in stable intra familial environments that depend for their coherence and impact on the broader social surround. If neighborhoods and communities are in turmoil then families however constituted they may be with our evolving modes of partnering and parenting cannot thrive and foster the stability, growth and development of their children who might otherwise become competent and responsible adults. We cannot create such communities with the simple minded rhetoric of our political media and politicians who grasp not at all what it takes to raise a child. At the highest levels of political life we have women and men who offer simplistic slogans that disguise their real ambitions that not too often include the beneficial impact of social policy and governance to foster stability in communities to protect and facilitate the maturation of our children. We are a grossly dysfunctional Nation that needs so very badly to get our act together.
1
The Black, Hispanic and White out-of-wedlock birth rates have increased 25%, 125% and 200%, respectively, since 1980. Yet the self satisfied country club christians in the southern United States, where much of this increased cohabiting, drug usage and poverty are occurring, are having a tizzy fit over gays who want to wed. God protect us from the Pharisees and false prophets.
6
Blue or Red is irrelevant; if we empower people with equal resources, rights, respect and education, we set the stage for increased equity and consciousness that foster opportunity and improved outcomes.
Poverty and lack of meaningful societal access are what drive poor outcomes and despair. Unlike poverty, morality is not constant or material, rather it is an ever-changing fiction used to deflect the truth by those who benefit from the status quo. The central parable of the morality fiction is that the poor have character flaws, make bad choices, and are unwilling to work hard to pull themselves out of poverty. Moreover, those who live in comfort do so because they have worked hard, continue to work hard, and make good choices.
The problem with this essay is that it’s nothing more than a clever rebrand of the morality agenda to explain the production of poverty and protect the status quo. What better way to try and maintain the public's belief in this fiction than to disparage one’s old conservative moral agenda, while simultaneously reintroducing it as something new and data-driven. And what better time than when America is more closely examining poverty and race, and those who control it?
Poverty and lack of meaningful societal access are what drive poor outcomes and despair. Unlike poverty, morality is not constant or material, rather it is an ever-changing fiction used to deflect the truth by those who benefit from the status quo. The central parable of the morality fiction is that the poor have character flaws, make bad choices, and are unwilling to work hard to pull themselves out of poverty. Moreover, those who live in comfort do so because they have worked hard, continue to work hard, and make good choices.
The problem with this essay is that it’s nothing more than a clever rebrand of the morality agenda to explain the production of poverty and protect the status quo. What better way to try and maintain the public's belief in this fiction than to disparage one’s old conservative moral agenda, while simultaneously reintroducing it as something new and data-driven. And what better time than when America is more closely examining poverty and race, and those who control it?
2
Several things stick out to me in this post, primarily though the emphasis of a lack of role models. One, single mothers in Muskogee and surrounding areas are usually because the fathers are inept and do not want to be a part of the child(ren)'s life. Two, yes teenage pregnancy is an issue, but so is child abuse, negligence, suicides, crime, poverty, human trafficking, etc. is also an issue faced by all cities in this nation. Three, overall crime rates in Muskogee has dropped around 5%, but living in a town where the most damage comes from traffic accidents and bad weather. And lastly, comparing Baltimore's income to Muskogee's is comparing apples and oranges. Baltimore is up to 10 times larger than Muskogee, along with cost of living being significantly higher than Muskogee's nearly 30% lower than the national average compared to the nearly 6% high than the national average in Baltimore; which, in turn, increases average pay to meet the living costs. Yes, it is a tragedy, but believe me; Muskogee and all of Oklahoma will prove to stay strong and true and aim for the betterment of our future.
Gertrude Himmelbarb, who is, I think, Irving Kristol's wife, made the argument -- in her 1990's book Victorian Values -- that the author of the essay summarizes in the second to last paragraph: Sexual liberation and changing family mores are apt to have a more troubling impact on poorer families.
I think they are both correct.
I also think that the author is correct in concluding that the political process is ill-equipped to deal with these issues.
I think they are both correct.
I also think that the author is correct in concluding that the political process is ill-equipped to deal with these issues.
Wow, I feel as if I read a different article from many other commenters. I don't interpret Mr. Edsall's premise as the rapidly changing social fabric/decline in traditional morality has been the cause of poverty and violence at all. Rather he seems to be making a deliberate effort to stay away from questions of causality. More important to him in this column is fitting societal changes into the so-called culture wars between red and blue states, as he points out conservatives' focus on the problems of inner cities with predominantly African American populations (e.g., Baltimore). They blame such problems on liberal Democratic agendas and enacted policies, while conveniently ignoring similar social conditions in the so-called red states and among whites. That's the bulk of the column.
7
Tom, you can't "mix and match" your statistics to meet your needs without telling the full story. The percentage of white out of wedlock births has risen more from a percentage perspective but from a much smaller base and is still a MUCH lower percentage than african american births.
Second, you completely ignore socioeconomic class in these statistics. Many single white moms do so by choice, either because they are in a relationship that is "post-marriage" or because they made a choice (often as an older professional) to have a child on their own.
You can't ignore the values issues that many socioeconomically disadvantaged communities are dealing with - lack of a cohesive family unit, lack of values being passed from parents to children, and so on.
Second, you completely ignore socioeconomic class in these statistics. Many single white moms do so by choice, either because they are in a relationship that is "post-marriage" or because they made a choice (often as an older professional) to have a child on their own.
You can't ignore the values issues that many socioeconomically disadvantaged communities are dealing with - lack of a cohesive family unit, lack of values being passed from parents to children, and so on.
1
So the single white presumably wealthier (older professional) moms who decide to have a child on their own do "have the cohesive family unit" that the "socioeconomically disadvantaged communities" lack?
3
Just NOT seeing the riots in Muskogee.
4
As a long-time Muskogee resident, this article is disheartening and full of misinformation. If you click on the link to the drug treatment centers, NOT ONE of them is in Muskogee. If you click the link that shows 300 meth arrests, that is over a 10-year time period!
Muskogee is a friendly, thriving, low-cost-of-living community with construction on nearly every corner and a park more beuatiful than Central Park. (Google Honor Heights Park Azalea Festival.) Our schools have been recognized as National Schools of Character.
The author fails to mention that tragically, a young, African American male in Muskogee was recently killed by a police officer while resisting arrest. He was shot in the back while running away. It was heart-breaking for everyone in our town. But our community came together, analyzed the situation, and prayed together. There was no looting or rioting, only prayers for healing and peace.
In Muskogee, we respect our leaders, our elders, and our law enforcement professionals. We know we can't change things by setting bad examples or causing violence. Muskogee is a town anyone would be blessed to live in. Come visit us sometime, you just might stay forever.
Muskogee is a friendly, thriving, low-cost-of-living community with construction on nearly every corner and a park more beuatiful than Central Park. (Google Honor Heights Park Azalea Festival.) Our schools have been recognized as National Schools of Character.
The author fails to mention that tragically, a young, African American male in Muskogee was recently killed by a police officer while resisting arrest. He was shot in the back while running away. It was heart-breaking for everyone in our town. But our community came together, analyzed the situation, and prayed together. There was no looting or rioting, only prayers for healing and peace.
In Muskogee, we respect our leaders, our elders, and our law enforcement professionals. We know we can't change things by setting bad examples or causing violence. Muskogee is a town anyone would be blessed to live in. Come visit us sometime, you just might stay forever.
8
It was a bit disconcerting to read about the black man who was shot in the back while running away. However, once I learned that people prayed together it really doesn't seem so bad anymore.
1
I also clicked on the link provided. All of the drug treatment centers were listed as being in the Muskogee area, and not specifically Muskogee.
When I clicked on the link for the Unity Recovery Group, I was taken to a YellowPages.com webpage, which listed the address as: 1240 US Highway 1, North Palm Beach, FL 33408. Apparently this is near Muskogee, Florida and not Muskogee, Oklahoma.
When I clicked on the link for the Unity Recovery Group, I was taken to a YellowPages.com webpage, which listed the address as: 1240 US Highway 1, North Palm Beach, FL 33408. Apparently this is near Muskogee, Florida and not Muskogee, Oklahoma.
The paramount nonnegotiable liberty that the GOP delivered to its followers since 1976 is the freedom to self-mythologize. Forty years of this self-delusion has gutted the Right.
4
A better comparison to Baltimore would have been Ferguson, MO, which is embedded in a solidly red state and also experienced violence after police killed a black person. More than 75% of children born in that city are born out of wedlock, more than double the national rate, with 58% of white children born to unmarried mothers. The city has one of the highest crime rates in the U.S.
1
Poor people will always have children and be unable to properly care for them.
Rich people will always have children and hand over their care to someone else or just throw money at them. We just don't condemn them for it.
The solution is the middle-class.
Rich people will always have children and hand over their care to someone else or just throw money at them. We just don't condemn them for it.
The solution is the middle-class.
1
The cause of the problems that exist in Baltimore and Muskogee are far more complex than what is presented in this article. One of the most important factor in the decay these two societies seems to be omitted, A solid early education, to counterbalance the mindless extreme religious teachings that dominates the lives of neglected citizens.
For education to be effective there are some basic infrastructural elements that have to be in place.
1 – Basic food and shelter
2 – jobs
3 – turn churches into community centers minus religious preaching, ( we need action, not dictates. Commands are good for training dogs not humans.)
4 – create programs to help the citizens rebuild their communities which can sustain themselves.
How can we expect citizens to behave when some of our representative politicians are so pathetic and stupid, especially in the red states! We should replace politicians with technocrats better suited for problem-solving.
Not much will happen until we have a unifying government that doesn't bicker on everything under the sun while the country is falling apart.
And last but not least the disparity in falling incomes in every strata of society with the exception of the top 1%. is evident. I believe this is just the beginning of not such a good scenario unfolding before our eyes. Signs of decay are popping up everywhere in the US if we don't do something about it very soon, we will be in big trouble.
For education to be effective there are some basic infrastructural elements that have to be in place.
1 – Basic food and shelter
2 – jobs
3 – turn churches into community centers minus religious preaching, ( we need action, not dictates. Commands are good for training dogs not humans.)
4 – create programs to help the citizens rebuild their communities which can sustain themselves.
How can we expect citizens to behave when some of our representative politicians are so pathetic and stupid, especially in the red states! We should replace politicians with technocrats better suited for problem-solving.
Not much will happen until we have a unifying government that doesn't bicker on everything under the sun while the country is falling apart.
And last but not least the disparity in falling incomes in every strata of society with the exception of the top 1%. is evident. I believe this is just the beginning of not such a good scenario unfolding before our eyes. Signs of decay are popping up everywhere in the US if we don't do something about it very soon, we will be in big trouble.
3
I cannot express enough how necessary this article truly is. I am a 22 year old student at the University of Oklahoma, but was born and raised in Muskogee. My entire family actually still lives there, and has never understood why I have zero intentions of returning once I graduate. You have statistics that I have wanted to know for years. The town is getting out of hand, and it takes an article like this for people to genuinely realize that it's a lot worse than they think. I am actually a registered republican, and the only reason was because I felt like I should do what the majority was doing. I really hope that this makes people realize that the last thing this country needs, is an extremely conservative president. We are a generation of progression, and that will be hindered if a republican is elected.
7
Children deserve better than this article states and we should be stressing that married parents are superior to being born out of wedlock. Many will state that it is out of fashion but let's consider the well-being of our children first. The left-leaning liberals believe in doing what feels good and to heck with society.
Children generally thrive in a two-parent home where there is love and discipline. They want to know they are loved and valued. They learn self-respect and dignity. We had better wake up before it is too late and there is no turning back. I admire people like Juan Williams, Larry Eldridge and Dr. Ben Carson. They speak of family values and the importance of a two-parent home.
Children are precious and let's treat them as such. They are our future of tomorrow.
Children generally thrive in a two-parent home where there is love and discipline. They want to know they are loved and valued. They learn self-respect and dignity. We had better wake up before it is too late and there is no turning back. I admire people like Juan Williams, Larry Eldridge and Dr. Ben Carson. They speak of family values and the importance of a two-parent home.
Children are precious and let's treat them as such. They are our future of tomorrow.
1
There's another 60s pop song that explains the flight from marriage, for better and for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health. "People Got to Be Free" by The Rascals (1968). Part of that freedom is political but mostly it is personal. That personal freedom movement continues today through the gay and transgender rights movement and it's a good thing. Free to be the person you are in totality, the person God created you to be. Women rejected the idea that God only created them to "helpmates" to men, a rib from Adam's side, sexual servants, childbearers and financial dependents. Today, thanks to feminists, women can be whatever they want to be, constrained only by their choice of religion and the natural consequences of all their choices, just as men are. Conservatives talk a lot about political freedom and personal responsibility when it serves their purposes to keep the economic power of the overlords intact, but for them, personal freedom is a threat.
6
It is more that many working class and poor men, given their disposable status, do not want to get married. Why would they take on the added responsability when they themselves are struggling to just get by?
5
The increasing disparities in income and wealth and lack of livable wage jobs crosses racial lines and religions and results in drug abuse and family disruptions.
2
To a starving man, God appears as a loaf of bread.
When he has enough to eat and to provide for his family he can begin to contemplate God and religion.
Give people a good paying job and we will see families growing and prospering.
When he has enough to eat and to provide for his family he can begin to contemplate God and religion.
Give people a good paying job and we will see families growing and prospering.
8
Compare this editorial to the Nail Salon article in the NY section.
The nail salon in my town has workers that are bused in from Queens by the owner. The women I see are the same week after week. One day my manicurist was scheduling my next appointment and I told her, please make it later I work full time. She told me I didn't know what full time was as she and her husband worked 7 days a week so they can send money back to their families.
Here is what I found amazing. In her neighborhood there are 24 hour day care centers and enrichment programs that offer tutoring, music, dance and yes...math and yes english cramming. Her children will go to college and become middle class because the whole family is committed to the effort.
None of these programs are subsidized....She pays for them. But the neighborhood has created businesses that meet the need and the demand.
Neither she nor her husband are educated but they are incredibly hard workers and reliable.
This is their mantra...
Go to school every day
Do your homework every night
Be prepared...Don't be disruptive in school
Commitment.
No one does drugs. There is no time or tolerance for that.
The nail salon in my town has workers that are bused in from Queens by the owner. The women I see are the same week after week. One day my manicurist was scheduling my next appointment and I told her, please make it later I work full time. She told me I didn't know what full time was as she and her husband worked 7 days a week so they can send money back to their families.
Here is what I found amazing. In her neighborhood there are 24 hour day care centers and enrichment programs that offer tutoring, music, dance and yes...math and yes english cramming. Her children will go to college and become middle class because the whole family is committed to the effort.
None of these programs are subsidized....She pays for them. But the neighborhood has created businesses that meet the need and the demand.
Neither she nor her husband are educated but they are incredibly hard workers and reliable.
This is their mantra...
Go to school every day
Do your homework every night
Be prepared...Don't be disruptive in school
Commitment.
No one does drugs. There is no time or tolerance for that.
13
And it appears that it requires these poor folks to leave their idyllic neighbor hood with all those educational benefits and that sure path to the middle class, work long hours in a foreign place for low pay in order to send money back to people living in a better place than they are here the USA. It is admirable that they will do that but it is also revealing that it takes that kind of monumental effort to climb out of the evident poverty of their homeland and into the middle class. And even with that effort their neighborhoods may never change; they will just see their children leave for a college education in some western nation. How grateful we should be for the (still) free public education our children receive, even in the Red states.
it would take a dramatic shift in the foundation of this country's cultural values for this to become commonplace. america, for better or worse, is founded on the belief that if you disagree with something, you should question it, rather than accepting it out of obedience, and that leaves plenty of room for deviation from the norm-an individualist society. the cultural background of these dutiful salon workers is one of conformity and cohesion for the greater good, where the individual and the group must, for the survival of the society, accept its core tenets unquestioningly-a collectivist society. i'm not saying one is better than the other, just that cultural attitudes aren't always interchangeable.
2
Thank you! When parents---whether single or together---make a commitment to education and a work ethic, and they demand that of their children, kids succeed.
No one seems to want to talk about the immense toll meth, heroin, and prescription opiate abuse is taking in the poor white community.
The constant screeching while pointing the finger at "those people's problems" makes it easy to ignore the three fingers pointing back at the white community. If the Master can't clean his own house, what makes Him think he can clean anyone else's?
The constant screeching while pointing the finger at "those people's problems" makes it easy to ignore the three fingers pointing back at the white community. If the Master can't clean his own house, what makes Him think he can clean anyone else's?
2
Thomas B. Edsall, Paul Krugman made the same point in his May 4 Race, Class, and Neglect noting that the health of poor white mothers is declining dramatically.
If we are to begin first to acknowledge this, that poor health is an equal opportunity condition, available to all of the poor whatever the particular tone of their skin, then I believe we have to begin a national decision where we do not begin by referring to "race".
The road to making that possible has been laid out by former Census Bureau Director Kenneth Prewitt who proposes two first steps in 2020: 1) Eliminate race/ethnicity questions, 2) Draw on data such as that in the American Community Study, in other words provide a national SES data base and use it.
Kenneth Prewitt is troubled as I am by the lack of interest in this proposed change (email to me) so I ask you Edsall and readers do you see the merits of such a change? I do, since a real study of National Health in America would not be "race-based" but SES data based where one piece of data would be: "Measure of access to health care".
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
If we are to begin first to acknowledge this, that poor health is an equal opportunity condition, available to all of the poor whatever the particular tone of their skin, then I believe we have to begin a national decision where we do not begin by referring to "race".
The road to making that possible has been laid out by former Census Bureau Director Kenneth Prewitt who proposes two first steps in 2020: 1) Eliminate race/ethnicity questions, 2) Draw on data such as that in the American Community Study, in other words provide a national SES data base and use it.
Kenneth Prewitt is troubled as I am by the lack of interest in this proposed change (email to me) so I ask you Edsall and readers do you see the merits of such a change? I do, since a real study of National Health in America would not be "race-based" but SES data based where one piece of data would be: "Measure of access to health care".
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Wonderful, insightful, instructive article, Mr. Edsall. Thank you. Fox News and conservative commentators don't put their message into a box that's in effect, below the fold. This should be front and center, not "relegated" to the opinion pages. Take off the gloves, New York Times. It's time to fight back.
1
If you want to compound these problems in Muskogee and Baltimore, virtually guaranteed, pass the Trans Pacific Partnership trade agreement in its present form.
3
China has already shifted some of its manufacturing to other Asian bordering countries, further increasing its profits at the detriment of poorer nation's. Is it conceivable to assume that the US wants to sign the PPT to take away the voluminous business it is giving to China, to slowly it down?
It may be time, for the US and Europe to solidify their ties by signing new trade agreements that benefit each other, and put tariffs on all goods and cheap trinkets coming from China. As a US citizen I have dramatically reduced buying items made outside the US. If it's not made in the US or Canada I don't buy it. It is up to us citizens to put pressure on companies that take away our livelihood.
It may be time, for the US and Europe to solidify their ties by signing new trade agreements that benefit each other, and put tariffs on all goods and cheap trinkets coming from China. As a US citizen I have dramatically reduced buying items made outside the US. If it's not made in the US or Canada I don't buy it. It is up to us citizens to put pressure on companies that take away our livelihood.
1
Imagine living in a rundown place like Muskogee or Baltimore, you wake up look at the same dismal surrounding, boarded up shops and houses, old malls with pawnshops and check cashing shops. If money was spent changing the environment, tearing down boarded shops and houses, turning them to parks or urban gardens, planting trees, rebuilding customer friendly malls with walking areas. .. this why the best thing that can happen in the US is a massive new infrastructure program paid for by taxing big companies that see the most benefit from infrastructure improvement
6
Media, please stop calling what happened in Baltimore a riot, and instead call it what it is: the Baltimore Uprising.
3
Strange, but I seem to have missed the coverage of all the rioting, looting, and arson in Muskogee County.
6
I'm not sure this article really makes any kind od a point that would be surprising to anyone - left or right. Nothing it contains provides any kind of validation for the liberal social agenda of family breakdown...indeed, the only thing it comes close to proving is that liberal social policies and practices inflict dramatically worse harm on the poor than on those who are more capable of buying their way out of the consequences of their depravity.
You haven't refuted the Conservative social outlook, you've validated it.
You haven't refuted the Conservative social outlook, you've validated it.
1
Excellent post and I must say I am not shocked at all that none of the erudite New York Times readers clicked the recommend tab for your post. The contention that the liberal policies of the federal entitlement culture inflicts social chaos on all segments of society who succumb to it is, in their eyes, sacrilege.
1
So, for decades, Americans have bombarded with a liberal social agenda - one that taught that marriage was in no way a necessity for sex or childbirth, that marriage need not be permanent, that men need not be a significant part of a child's life, that drug use and experimentation were permissible, and that big government would be there to provide whatever you failed to provide yourself. After decades of this, said liberal social agenda has "won" some converts among otherwise Conservative populations. Now, those populations are beginning to suffer the same negative consequences that have been felt by liberal (disproportionately, minority) populations. Yet somehow this is a strike against the Conservative social agenda.
I don't think so. The only thing you've proved here is that the liberal social agenda is even more toxic for the lower classes than for everyone else. You haven't debunked the Conservative message, you've validated it.
I don't think so. The only thing you've proved here is that the liberal social agenda is even more toxic for the lower classes than for everyone else. You haven't debunked the Conservative message, you've validated it.
4
Some form of "mother" is used 6 times in this article. Some form of "birth" --a thing that only women do -- is used 8 times. "Pregnancy" (only happens to women) is mentioned 6 times. But "Father" is mentioned only once, and only because it is in a direct quote from Laura Ingrahm. Yet every single conception involved a father. A majority of children born without married parents are consigned to a life of poverty, yet rare is the acknowledgement of the role that these men play in directly causing the suffering of their own offspring. Why, in 2015, is that point still lost on every journalist? Why play this ridiculous game of blaming the Right or the Left for what is a failure of men that transcends religion and political leaning?
8
Your "failure of men" feminist spiel runs headlong into the fact that it is women, not men, who initiate most divorces. And it is women, not men, who talk about a lack of "marriageable" partners...though, apparently, not bedable partners. To attempt to pin the blame on men ignores the fact that women are the sex most responsible for the breakdown of the family based on their persistent attempts to cut men out of their lives.
1
C'mon, what planet are you on? That the majority of children are now born to unwed parents isn't because women initiated divorces or rejected marriage proposals. Male reluctance to commit in the first place is so common it's a cliche.
Our society has coddled a subset of men by expecting nothing of them. We've even enshrined it into federal law that the responsibility to pay for birth-control is not theirs, but that of their female partner's employer or her parent's employer if she is under age 26. Failing that, we (and he) expect society to pick up the tab. Pretty much anyone but him. So it's no wonder we've got a situation where tens of billions of child-support went unpaid last year. This is the problem Moynihan recognized, this is what Quayle was talking about with regard to Murphy Brown (Recall, in that storyline, the spouse of Ms. Brown split at the news he was to be a dad because there was some really important journalist stuff he needed to do.) Most notably, this is also what Obama was talking about in his 2008 Father's day speech, to which Jesse Jackson so viscerally and vulgarly responded. If agreeing with Obama makes me Feminist, I'll gladly carry that label. Why anyone would defend Jackson's view is absurd. Why keep giving irresponsible men a pass? It's a vicious cycle and Muskogee, like Baltimore, will reap what was sown.
Our society has coddled a subset of men by expecting nothing of them. We've even enshrined it into federal law that the responsibility to pay for birth-control is not theirs, but that of their female partner's employer or her parent's employer if she is under age 26. Failing that, we (and he) expect society to pick up the tab. Pretty much anyone but him. So it's no wonder we've got a situation where tens of billions of child-support went unpaid last year. This is the problem Moynihan recognized, this is what Quayle was talking about with regard to Murphy Brown (Recall, in that storyline, the spouse of Ms. Brown split at the news he was to be a dad because there was some really important journalist stuff he needed to do.) Most notably, this is also what Obama was talking about in his 2008 Father's day speech, to which Jesse Jackson so viscerally and vulgarly responded. If agreeing with Obama makes me Feminist, I'll gladly carry that label. Why anyone would defend Jackson's view is absurd. Why keep giving irresponsible men a pass? It's a vicious cycle and Muskogee, like Baltimore, will reap what was sown.
2
There are other nations that have very permissive moralities, lots of out of wedlock birth, fairly high rates of substance abuse, and so on.
But most of these nations also have universal health care, wide and deep social safety nets, strong minimum (and sometimes maximum) wage laws, and societal ethos that emphasizes "we" more acutely than "they".
Such nations (Scandinavian, Western European, Canada/Australia/New Zealand, and some others) are not without their problems, but they seem to be doing a considerably better job in the social cohesion department.
Perhaps there might be a connection.
But most of these nations also have universal health care, wide and deep social safety nets, strong minimum (and sometimes maximum) wage laws, and societal ethos that emphasizes "we" more acutely than "they".
Such nations (Scandinavian, Western European, Canada/Australia/New Zealand, and some others) are not without their problems, but they seem to be doing a considerably better job in the social cohesion department.
Perhaps there might be a connection.
10
I was with this analysis all the way until the last paragraph, where he labeled the family situation as "radically diminished moral constraint." I see the demise of the traditional family as without moral implications. It's a natural progression from women's further acceptance and empowerment. Women will have children in any situation now. Instead of paying for premarital sex with shame and hiding, we've accepted the reality of unwanted pregnancies. I find that, actually, a more enlightened moral response.
4
Then the high poverty rate of single mothers and their children must absolutely thrill you.
1
"The right willfully ignores the benefits, and the left willfully ignores the costs, of what is, for better or worse, a world of radically diminished moral constraint."
Someone please enlighten me. What is the benefit of a world of radically diminished moral constraint? Am I missing something?
Someone please enlighten me. What is the benefit of a world of radically diminished moral constraint? Am I missing something?
1
Jason
"For bettor wirse means "
Making no judgement but seeing the reality that it exists
"For bettor wirse means "
Making no judgement but seeing the reality that it exists
Isn't it common knowledge that children look to their parents for example?
If I had to endure my children's gaze while society humiliated me daily, I might be motivated to flee or self-destruct, too. Zero sum game; ouroboros; Baltimore.
If I had to endure my children's gaze while society humiliated me daily, I might be motivated to flee or self-destruct, too. Zero sum game; ouroboros; Baltimore.
6
This is the sort of researched measured response to the "conservative" attacks, but it isn't one that can be thrown out in 30 second soundbites. It also reflects a truth which those who vote right against their own interests do not want to hear -- that they themselves are falling into increasing poverty. They are vulnerable to political hype scapegoating another group - blacks, immigrants - for their increasingly shrinking opportunities. The drug abuse ( meth Use) reported most likely is similar to drug problems you would encounter in upstate NY and rural areas in non-Southern states.
7
No jobs = no hope. With the gutting of working class employment America has set the agenda for the destruction of 2nd tier cities like Baltimore while first tier cities like New York and San Francisco boom. Corpporations show more social responsibility in Africa than they do in their own backyards. We need more planning in the economy, mor taxing of the rich and corporations and less religion and arguing over who gets to married who. The social argument the Reublicans lead with is lost....the contry is so far ahead of them on almost every issue. The economic issues are harder because both Repubs and Dems are beholden to Wall Street and the corporate oligarchy. It would be nice if we had a labor party in this country but labor is dead even as an organizing principle. It's best that we just get ready for more Baltimore's and just try to containg the viloence. Welcome to the Brave New World of the U.S. A.
7
Don't ignore the economic reasons for changing family patterns. With so many men unable to find decent paying jobs (or any job at all), a woman's decision to have a child on her own is a rational one. Supporting 2 people is less expensive than supporting 3.
4
The reason red and consevative states have such a high rate of teenage pregnancies is quite clear to me: lack of acess to contraception, and it relates more to moral hypocrisy than to a lack of traditional values
11
Conservative areas have high rates of teen pregnancy and out-of-wedlock birth because they have eliminated meaningful sex education, restrict access to birth control, deny young women's sexuality, and have defined motherhood as the primary role of women. Sarah Palin's daughter is a prime example, she was not crticized from the right or the left.
Most of my left-leaning college age students intend on getting married - but only after establishing themselves in their career and becoming economically secure. For many that means late 20s, raising the marriage age and therefore reducing marriage rates. They don't intend to be celibate during this extended period of single life. It has nothing to do with being anti-marriage. It has everything to do with a world in which financial stress affects not just the working-class but also middle class young people.
Most of my left-leaning college age students intend on getting married - but only after establishing themselves in their career and becoming economically secure. For many that means late 20s, raising the marriage age and therefore reducing marriage rates. They don't intend to be celibate during this extended period of single life. It has nothing to do with being anti-marriage. It has everything to do with a world in which financial stress affects not just the working-class but also middle class young people.
12
a world of radically diminished moral constraint? But wait, didn't you state that crime rates are down in both red and blue states, for instance. Are you saying cohabitation is radically diminished constraint? Perhaps the Second Demographic Transition means changing morals, not less moral. This is backed up by the correlation you pointed out between religion that claims the moral high ground and out of wedlock births. It seem there is an indirect relationship between so called morality and fertility. Perhaps a more accurate measure of things moral and fertile, economic and political would be to look more deeply into these births. What are the ages of the parents of these births? How many are born into medicaid? How many are born to parents of ages when higher or vocational education is a major life task? How many are to working parents? What is the overlap among these categories?
The map is changing but not in the way conservatives think it is. It's not births out of wedlock but births into poverty and why that poverty exists that matters. Tracing that back will reveal conservative policies like third strike your're out, favoring big business over workers, tax breaks for the wealthy, and fragmentation of the responsibility business once had for workers including pensions and retirement, healthcare, living wages, policies and practices that gave their workers ease in lifestyle like a regular schedule.
The map is changing but not in the way conservatives think it is. It's not births out of wedlock but births into poverty and why that poverty exists that matters. Tracing that back will reveal conservative policies like third strike your're out, favoring big business over workers, tax breaks for the wealthy, and fragmentation of the responsibility business once had for workers including pensions and retirement, healthcare, living wages, policies and practices that gave their workers ease in lifestyle like a regular schedule.
8
Your litany of so-called conservative policies looks pretty liberal to me. Big Blue California, the Great Incarcerator, passed one of most stringent three strikes laws, then built the private prisons to hold the fruits of crime. Everybody's favorite progressive company, Apple, certainly has not let its $200,000,000,000 off-shore treasure chest slip into the bank accounts of its employees. Tax breaks for the wealthy? I haven't heard of any billionaire liberals returning their tax write-offs to the US Treasury, and Buffet and Gates didn't pledge to give their fortunes to the government.
Religion? Drugs? Declining "Family Values"?, which one??? Interestingly, Baltimore, I believe, is the largest port on the East Coast next to NYC. Without and meaningful wage jobs, the rising tide of economic prosperity that supposedly raises all ships, has disappeared. It has disappeared in many of the medium and smaller cities across the country. The sole economic engine for many cities and counties is the community hospital and associated RNs, LPNs, CNA, and work in all the "Nursing Homes" and rehab facilities that are satellites to the main health care establishments anchored in the inner cities. Keynesian economic theory (supply side economics) saved the US in the 2008-2012 depression. The shovel ready roads projects provide the greatest bang for the buck. We need that for the inner city schools, municipal buildings, colleges, old hospitals and on and on. The the rising tide of economic recovery needs to come back in and lift everyone!!!! Religious hold on conservative values is waining, and will continue to decline. The religion of the 21st century is economics and financial stability. With no jobs, no secondary education training, no hope, drugs domestic violence, and all the other ills that are touching every corner of society creep in and destroy our communities. Drugs, Economic despair, and poor education's success do not discriminate. Fox discriminates with their irresponsible perpetuation of stereotypes solely for their demographically ignorant viewers.
7
Sorry, but Keynesian economic theory CAUSED the 2008 depression, from which we have yet to recover.
"Supply side" is the opposite of Keynesian.
Key word here: ideology. Which is when people simply can't change their minds because reality is tough to swallow. It's when men stay the course, because they set the course, even if said course is heading for disaster.
When I look at that mad, I regret that the south lost the Civil War. It used to have some romantic aura about it, but that has long gone. HL Mencken even deplored its complete lack of sense and intellect, see his essay: "Sahara of the bozart." With apologies to my southern friends, who are, I must say, remarkable intellects and highly talented... and mostly in exile in the north.
When I look at that mad, I regret that the south lost the Civil War. It used to have some romantic aura about it, but that has long gone. HL Mencken even deplored its complete lack of sense and intellect, see his essay: "Sahara of the bozart." With apologies to my southern friends, who are, I must say, remarkable intellects and highly talented... and mostly in exile in the north.
3
The otherwise excellent analysis is marred by the excessive emphasis placed on cohabitation before marriage as the cause.
3
Great article! But not for all the reasons that the co-habitation and 'see, drugs don't hurt' crowd here. What the writer, perhaps unintentionally did, was unequivically make the evil/faux news watching/racists/bigoted/war on women (anything else forgotten, add here) Conservatives case, that indeed, traditional values, morals (God forbid!!!), avoiding drugs etc etc does make a difference in ones outlook, economic well being and so forth, and is seen indeed in both Baltimore and Oklahoma - therefore it is independent of race - that what all those crazy Puritan conservatives have been stressing is correct, and wasnt 'code' for racism, because when those values fails, they affect blacks, whites, and anyone else who has out of wedlock births and drug use etc, but dont worry, this comment is way down in the no 'likes' section, safe from the closed minds of the left who were hoping to hear that their values and policies actually are good, but instead saw that the more 'blue' one becomes, ie drug use = good and out of wedlock births = way up, yippie!! = hurt children, poorer families, worsened economic attainment, and reduced well being, but hey!, its time to keep hating on the right, go nyt commentators, go!!
1
No true Puritan conservative would ever have an out of wedlock birth or use drugs, amirite?
Mr Edsall. Please do not trouble the right with facts. We all know they are immune to them.
6
Two hundred and thirty eight years of slavery, wherein a black man could not function as a man, destroyed black fatherhood as we would wish it to be.
8
You might want to check the single mother rate of balcks in the US bewtween 1900 and 1967 which is when one of the "great" progressive solutions to poverty in America was enacted....LBJ's Great Society.
1
"It may be asking too much of the political process to resolve conflicts like these." --
Oh, really? Well, it's the political process that FEEDS on these conflicts. How about the politicians and the political process taking some responsibility for a change? And what a change that would be!
Oh, really? Well, it's the political process that FEEDS on these conflicts. How about the politicians and the political process taking some responsibility for a change? And what a change that would be!
1
Black men in Baltimore and white men in Muskogee have something in common and it's not being "ill equipped" to adjust to changes in behavior that they themselves chose to engage in. It's this: they can't find decent jobs.
Men who can't get decent jobs are a general threat to the social structure. They lie around, whining, watching TV, hanging out, playing video games and feeling sorry for themselves. They don't offer to take up all the housework and childcare. Women don't like to marry men like that because they don't have anything useful to contribute. The things they do have to contribute, women can get without getting married.
Sociologists know that marriage declines when men stop being marriageable, but child-rearing continues. If red state conservatives are serious about the nuclear family and kids having fathers, they should stop decimating the middle class and taking good paying jobs away from Americans.
If they opened a factory in Muskogee with decent wages, I bet you would see an immediate decline in negative behavior
Men who can't get decent jobs are a general threat to the social structure. They lie around, whining, watching TV, hanging out, playing video games and feeling sorry for themselves. They don't offer to take up all the housework and childcare. Women don't like to marry men like that because they don't have anything useful to contribute. The things they do have to contribute, women can get without getting married.
Sociologists know that marriage declines when men stop being marriageable, but child-rearing continues. If red state conservatives are serious about the nuclear family and kids having fathers, they should stop decimating the middle class and taking good paying jobs away from Americans.
If they opened a factory in Muskogee with decent wages, I bet you would see an immediate decline in negative behavior
13
Yes, destructive left wing policies destroy conservative families as well as families of liberals.
1
Hooey. It is the plutocratic statist policies endorsed and enacted by both "conservative" and "progressive" political oligarchs that have ruined the economy, and thus the ability of families to survive and flourish.
Unlike in the 1950's, when one wage-earner could support a family of six, the enormous tax burden and over regulated economy make it next to impossible for a traditional young family to exist, yet alone survive. Add to that the repressive, unconstitutional "drug prohibition" war on the American people that has decimated the family structure for decades and a perfect storm for societal breakdown is formulated.
Unlike in the 1950's, when one wage-earner could support a family of six, the enormous tax burden and over regulated economy make it next to impossible for a traditional young family to exist, yet alone survive. Add to that the repressive, unconstitutional "drug prohibition" war on the American people that has decimated the family structure for decades and a perfect storm for societal breakdown is formulated.
2
Really? Left wing business practices have removed employment opportunities from this nation, thus producing a cadre of un/under-employed males? Well, that explains everything. For an reference revisit the NYT article on the employment dynamic in Russell, AL. Obsolete and discarded white men.
Enjoy your cheap consumer goods from off-shored sources.
Enjoy your cheap consumer goods from off-shored sources.
Touché! So if you're conclusion is right and liberalism is destroying America, what is your big red solution? If it's Brownback's Kansas experiment, try again. If it's Kochian oligarchy concentrating wealth at the top .01% , I hope you're one of them. If it's unfettered capitalism and free trade, I hope you work on Wall Street or your job can't be off-shored. If it's less regulation, I hope you don't live near the toxic waste dump or get your water from a river or well. If it's Paul Ryan's bootstrapping I hope you have boots. The war on poverty was not and should not be evaluated as an all or nothing proposition. Millions were rescued from the grip of poverty and yes, millions weren't for lots of reasons. But without the social safety net and some albeit idealistic effort to help your neighbor out, the picture would be uglier than it is now. Just look at Dorothea Lange's dustbowl photos for an idea. Ironically it was a Texan (Johnson) who cared enough about his fellow man to try to address a problem that was bad and getting worse. Now it's every man for himself and the result is a return to the misery and despair detailed in the article.
Mr Edsall could have easily made this argument with drugs of a different kind.
The nytimes had a painful-to-read account of the HIV outbreak in Indiana due to needle sharing among opiate addicts. Entire families shooting up together; unable to leave their chairs or seats to retrieve clean needles. Indiana. . .white, salt of the earth 'real americans'. If you write that article about families in Baltimore, we picture them as black.
But they are all Americans. Just like these young mothers and their children. Poverty and despair harm all families.
The nytimes had a painful-to-read account of the HIV outbreak in Indiana due to needle sharing among opiate addicts. Entire families shooting up together; unable to leave their chairs or seats to retrieve clean needles. Indiana. . .white, salt of the earth 'real americans'. If you write that article about families in Baltimore, we picture them as black.
But they are all Americans. Just like these young mothers and their children. Poverty and despair harm all families.
5
The lack of traditional families may lead to poverty, crime and drug use among whites and blacks alike, but there is no disputing where the violent riots have occurred.... In mostly black inner cities in blue states.
1
The people of Muskogee don't blame the police for their problems, and they don't riot. End of the comparison.
2
I wouldn't speak so soon.
At some point, if they keep telling people, "you didn't build this and this isn't yours," they will see what comes of an entirely rootless society whose labor is counted as a non-contribution.
Hint: It's happened before, many times, around the world. People with nothing to lose (you're worthless, your work isn't worth enough to keep you alive) and everything to gain take risks that people who own things and think they have a stake in the future do not.
In Baltimore, they are keenly aware of what is theirs (nothing:"We built this, not you, it's ours, not yours"). When that sentiment spreads, and this is by no means a personal thread, because I don't intend to riot myself, but... watch out.
I have small children and I don't mean to try to scare anyone, but really--you have everything to lose. They have nothing. When that happens, cities burn.
At some point, if they keep telling people, "you didn't build this and this isn't yours," they will see what comes of an entirely rootless society whose labor is counted as a non-contribution.
Hint: It's happened before, many times, around the world. People with nothing to lose (you're worthless, your work isn't worth enough to keep you alive) and everything to gain take risks that people who own things and think they have a stake in the future do not.
In Baltimore, they are keenly aware of what is theirs (nothing:"We built this, not you, it's ours, not yours"). When that sentiment spreads, and this is by no means a personal thread, because I don't intend to riot myself, but... watch out.
I have small children and I don't mean to try to scare anyone, but really--you have everything to lose. They have nothing. When that happens, cities burn.
Red or blue, poverty in America is far worse than it should be, largely thanks to the War on... Poverty. At the end of the day the War on Poverty has been nothing short of a disaster. Not only has it sucked $40 trillion out of the hands of American workers and entrepreneurs, but it has also created an environment where tragic of circumstances have become the norm for tens of millions of Americans. More crime, more broken families and more broken dreams are the outcome of a half century of government failure.
www.imperfectamerica.com
www.imperfectamerica.com
Don't forget the war on drugs, creating criminals for petty crimes making them unemployable when they get out and who's supporting their families when they are in jail?
It's almost as if parts of the country that need stricter moral codes try to provide themselves with stricter moral codes.
1
Desperate flailings from the religulous, who have sought to convince people (forced, unforced) that their 'way' is the only way.
5
Republicans have the gut feeling that these numbers are wrong. Nobody can deduce or conclude anything from wrong statistics.
Let's remember Democrats controlled many of these states discussed for decades and the Republican takeovers are fairly new such as WV and AR have just changed hands in the last couple of election cycles. Democrat control of the big city politics is indisputable in the North and South. Let see a defense of that stewardship.
1
No words. I feel as if the world if finally catching up with me.
Just non-partisan facts that are totally unacceptable to those who believe the world is 6,000 years old and a woman's destiny is to be barefoot and pregnant.
5
Mr. Edsall mentions the large number of drug treatment facilities in Muskogee. It might have been more germane to his point to compare the incarceration rate of the arrested white drug offenders in Muskogee to the black arrested offenders in Baltimore, including length of sentences and time served. Prisons do nothing to promote responsible citizenship.
5
How can men support families when off shoring has affected every former manufacturing area of our country and will continue to break our working class until the only work available will be found in the military and defense contractors.
We won't need to rebuild our infrastructure.
Time to redefine the word traitor.
We won't need to rebuild our infrastructure.
Time to redefine the word traitor.
9
Even in a horrible time like this in Baltimore, I think it makes the most sense to focus on the strengths of these communities. A large number of people choose to continue a dysfunctional life. But many do not. Even in the worst parts of that city or any other city, in places where jobs are scarce and street violence is common, there are families where education is emphasized, where employment is sought, where drugs and criminality are avoided. What strength is must take amid such poverty to keep it together and to try to build a better life? What can we learn from such people, and how can we spotlight the personal qualities and choices these people exemplify so others can be inspired. Human nature is to be divided. We can be pushed, in the wrong direction or the right direction. Environment matters, clearly. Poverty matters, racism matters and, yes, family structure matters. But we should be role-modeling what it is that survivors of such communities do and think, and government should align itself behind strength-building practices.
2
The problem we are seeing is not restricted at all to black America, and it is perceptive of Edsall to point this out. It is a problem affecting blacks, whites, Hispanics, Asians, and Native Americans in the States, but It is not restricted to the USA. It affects South America, Europe, Africa, Asia, and Australasia.
What is this problem? It is the growing "lumpen-proletarianisation" of the young. To those who have not read Marx or Engels, the lumpen-proletariat are the semi-employed working class, with disordered, marginal lives occasioned by their semi-poverty.
The characteristics of the lumpen-proletariat include cohabitation, disorder, drink, violence, alienation from social institutions such as church, school, trade unions, and civic groups, and an ethos which favors "do your own thing" over traditional morality.
Since the victory of "youth peer culture" over "responsible adult culture" in the late '60s in the States, UK, and Europe, this lumpen culture has spread worldwide and can be found in every country, from Nepal to Chile.
It is highly resistant to any form of traditional "parental" culture. It rejects tradition. It emphasizes personal autonomy, regardless of the cost. It transcends race, culture, and geography.
What can we hope for? A new synthesis among global youth which embraces freedom and autonomy, but rejects sociopathy and sees the need for a moral code.
What is this problem? It is the growing "lumpen-proletarianisation" of the young. To those who have not read Marx or Engels, the lumpen-proletariat are the semi-employed working class, with disordered, marginal lives occasioned by their semi-poverty.
The characteristics of the lumpen-proletariat include cohabitation, disorder, drink, violence, alienation from social institutions such as church, school, trade unions, and civic groups, and an ethos which favors "do your own thing" over traditional morality.
Since the victory of "youth peer culture" over "responsible adult culture" in the late '60s in the States, UK, and Europe, this lumpen culture has spread worldwide and can be found in every country, from Nepal to Chile.
It is highly resistant to any form of traditional "parental" culture. It rejects tradition. It emphasizes personal autonomy, regardless of the cost. It transcends race, culture, and geography.
What can we hope for? A new synthesis among global youth which embraces freedom and autonomy, but rejects sociopathy and sees the need for a moral code.
2
Interesting observation, that race has little to do with it. The fact that locality does not really affect the core condition is also not a big revelation. Those of us who live "out here" could tell you as much.
Federal Government programs are not driven by race, so the enslavement is no respecter of persons. The same flawed applications are given to the poor, no matter their race.
The fire that was started with the "War on Poverty" and it's favor for fatherless families was a spark, and concentrated large housing projects insured that the tinder and kindling were all concentrated in one place.
It is well past time that the bias against a fathered family be removed, and provide a positive incentive for a married couple. Put that together with decentralization of public housing. Housing assistance should be limited by geographic area, and moving assistance be provided for all the poor.
Add in trades training programs, with basic job education programs, and a graduated drop in assistance to make sure that folks receive at least 50% of their earned income while their support is tapered off. Put a limit on the length of benefits available that can be waivered with difficulty, and you have a plan that would work for the poor rather than against them.
Federal Government programs are not driven by race, so the enslavement is no respecter of persons. The same flawed applications are given to the poor, no matter their race.
The fire that was started with the "War on Poverty" and it's favor for fatherless families was a spark, and concentrated large housing projects insured that the tinder and kindling were all concentrated in one place.
It is well past time that the bias against a fathered family be removed, and provide a positive incentive for a married couple. Put that together with decentralization of public housing. Housing assistance should be limited by geographic area, and moving assistance be provided for all the poor.
Add in trades training programs, with basic job education programs, and a graduated drop in assistance to make sure that folks receive at least 50% of their earned income while their support is tapered off. Put a limit on the length of benefits available that can be waivered with difficulty, and you have a plan that would work for the poor rather than against them.
1
This is an excellent, dispassionate article about the undeniable change in evolving social attitudes regarding sexuality, reproduction and marriage. I would like to disagree slightly, however, with the writer's assumption that values stressing personal autonomy must necessarily clash with, or preclude, values that stress family obligation. Having come of age in the 1960's, and believing resolutely in the primacy of personal autonomy, I can say, unequivocally, that being the father of a beautiful daughter and son is the greatest possible manifestation of my humanity. I have never experienced fatherhood as an obligation. It has been the most magical of all possible journeys.
5
Some other factors that might have an influence in Red States is their vilification of science education in the classroom, or for that matter just plain education.
7
The conservative red states are poorer, less educated, less tolerant, more overweight, heavier smokers, have more pregnant teenagers, and more bible thumpers.
Incredibly, they try to look down on the more liberal blue states.
Incredibly, they try to look down on the more liberal blue states.
17
A decline in traditional social norms clearly has been detrimental to American society. But the genie is out of the bottle. Will sexual norms return to what they were prior to the 1960s sexual revolution? Will cohabitation disappear?
Will widespread drug addiction, also a product of the 1960s, disappear? Cultural norms have changed and conservative religious based value systems are probably in irreversible decline. It would help if all Americans believed in God, and went to church, synagogue, mosque or temple on a weekly basis, abstained from extramarital and premarital sex, gave up various addictive behaviors including drugs, alcohol, tobacco, junk food, gambling and other behaviors indicative of widespread social and psychological pathology.
It would also help if real wages for the bottom 50 percent of the work force rose rather than declined and that job security, health insurance and other public goods were in robust shape and universally available.
Too bad we live in the real world.
Will widespread drug addiction, also a product of the 1960s, disappear? Cultural norms have changed and conservative religious based value systems are probably in irreversible decline. It would help if all Americans believed in God, and went to church, synagogue, mosque or temple on a weekly basis, abstained from extramarital and premarital sex, gave up various addictive behaviors including drugs, alcohol, tobacco, junk food, gambling and other behaviors indicative of widespread social and psychological pathology.
It would also help if real wages for the bottom 50 percent of the work force rose rather than declined and that job security, health insurance and other public goods were in robust shape and universally available.
Too bad we live in the real world.
7
Out of wedlock births in red states are not the result of the declining influence of the churches. Rather, lack of access to birth control, which the churches have caused as a result of their lobbying power, explains the difference between them and blue states.
19
Like any other entity, a marriage requires adequate resources to exist. The fact that the income and wealth of the bottom 90% is stagnating or going down, and the ranks of the poor are growing, while the middle class is shrinking, must have something to do with these trends. The goal of our society isn't to foster family values, but to make the rich richer.
3
Ignorance - insularity -bigotry and anti science and education are not conducive to producing remunerative and fulfilled lives!
These attributes seem to be the byproducts of all hard core Evangelical societies -from The Middle east to Oklahoma.
And it's ironic those states lead in welfare and food stamp recipients.
statistics for the Bible belt!
Nothing enhances cognitive dissonance like Evangelism!
These attributes seem to be the byproducts of all hard core Evangelical societies -from The Middle east to Oklahoma.
And it's ironic those states lead in welfare and food stamp recipients.
statistics for the Bible belt!
Nothing enhances cognitive dissonance like Evangelism!
13
It is instructive and useful to point out that teen-age pregnancy, one-parent families is not exclusively a black inner-city problem. At the same time, the value of that insight is entirely negated by concluding:
"changes in behavior driven by the sexual revolution and the second demographic transition"
I will allow that changing morality may be part of the picture, but the shift from one earner providing adequately for a family of four, to the necessity of 2 working parents, to today's scenario where 2 incomes are often not sufficient, render the Ozzie and Harriet model completely obsolete.
"changes in behavior driven by the sexual revolution and the second demographic transition"
I will allow that changing morality may be part of the picture, but the shift from one earner providing adequately for a family of four, to the necessity of 2 working parents, to today's scenario where 2 incomes are often not sufficient, render the Ozzie and Harriet model completely obsolete.
8
The problem with the red states illustrated in the article are in step with the problems in my own red state. Republican dominated legislatures oppose abortion while at the same time oppose family planning and sex education. Without accurate information for family planning, contraception and sex education, what did Republicans expect would happen? Republicans in glass houses shouldn't throw stones at the inner cities of blue states.
12
Marriage and other committed ongoing relationships are not disappearing. They still prevail for college educated parents who have decent incomes and prospects, and who have ambitions for their children that pretty much require a stable, two-parent, two-income, home. Mostly, they are not marrying for the sake of morality, but to improve their own and especially their children's prospects because they see a future. But many of the poor and poorly educated don't perceive much opportunity for improvement in our current economy and society, especially as the gap between professional two-earner families and themselves widens ever further. The problem tends to exacerbate itself because the absence of a supportive family structure increases isolation and makes people extremely vulnerable to any crisis.
7
I disagree. I did not get married because of some economic cost/benefit analysis. I got married and had children because I believed it was the right thing to do and because I believed that the social and psychological benefits of going through life with a legally committed partner and children would outweigh the sacrifice of individual fulfillment.
I think it goes the other way. Stable families do tend to enjoy more economic stability but people don't get married just because they are wealthy or they think marriage will make them wealthy.
I think it goes the other way. Stable families do tend to enjoy more economic stability but people don't get married just because they are wealthy or they think marriage will make them wealthy.
2
I was waiting for this comment. My children "professional class" as was I not "rich" but well off, are marrying people that are educated and :like" them, having children (less than my wife & I had) but two a piece seems rifght; I suspect that there would be more grand-children if their economic situation was more predictable.
And we are letting the ruling class destroy the aspirations, the real key to progress, by destroying opportunity for the next generastion. How can these graduates have so much debt?
The greed of the .001% is senseless and sociopathic. The professional classes, historically, lead the overthrow of the oligarchs. I ndon't see any other way than to "take the country back" for all, by force.
And we are letting the ruling class destroy the aspirations, the real key to progress, by destroying opportunity for the next generastion. How can these graduates have so much debt?
The greed of the .001% is senseless and sociopathic. The professional classes, historically, lead the overthrow of the oligarchs. I ndon't see any other way than to "take the country back" for all, by force.
4
The author of this well-documented article fails to mention one important element in the changes in sexual and reproductive behavior: the investment over this time frame of over $1 billion in federal abstinence-only and until marriage programs in the public schools. These programs have shown little or no sound research results and prevent young people from learning about the benefits of contraception as only the negative aspects of it can be taught if federal money is taken. Most schools in the states with the highest teen pregnancies rates, those in red states mostly in the south, take abstinence-only funds and the Congress keeps authorizing the expenditure year-after-year despite poor results. Better, more comprehensive sexuality education programs in red and blue states might deter some young men women and men from deciding to be single parents.
13
"rate, but below Muskogee’s 27.7 percent. The median household income in Baltimore is $41,385, $11,661 below the $53,046 national level, but $7,712 above Muskogee’s $33,664."
This is not a good comparison, using national rates. In this case the income level needs to be compared to the cost of living in the separate counties or communities. Just from anecdotal evidence I suspect the cost of living in Muskogee is lower also.
This is not a good comparison, using national rates. In this case the income level needs to be compared to the cost of living in the separate counties or communities. Just from anecdotal evidence I suspect the cost of living in Muskogee is lower also.
The enduring alliance of religious conservatives and the ultra-rich has been a two-point disaster for America.
First: The high teen pregnancy rates of the Southern-fundamentalist-dominated South are not a coincidence, but a predicted and tragic result of narrow moralism: virginity pledges, suppression of sex education, reliance on abstinence and conservative religion have not resulted in less pre-marital teen sex, but only in more unplanned and undesired pregnancy.
Second: The cultural wars have been a wonderful way to distract attention from the real causes of poverty and despair in America: globalization, the destruction of unions, the erosion of social support networks, and ever-rising income inequality, all in the interests of the unstoppable greed of the top hundredth of a percent of Americans.
First: The high teen pregnancy rates of the Southern-fundamentalist-dominated South are not a coincidence, but a predicted and tragic result of narrow moralism: virginity pledges, suppression of sex education, reliance on abstinence and conservative religion have not resulted in less pre-marital teen sex, but only in more unplanned and undesired pregnancy.
Second: The cultural wars have been a wonderful way to distract attention from the real causes of poverty and despair in America: globalization, the destruction of unions, the erosion of social support networks, and ever-rising income inequality, all in the interests of the unstoppable greed of the top hundredth of a percent of Americans.
19
"Insofar as conservatives identify the erosion of the traditional family as a cause of civic disorder, the erosion is not limited to minority communities in Democratic cities. These trends are increasingly characteristic of white communities in red states."
Yes they are. And they too will be left behind economically. Do you expect someone to say differently?
Yes they are. And they too will be left behind economically. Do you expect someone to say differently?
2
I would like to put two myths to rest here. First, having a father in the home and two parent household is not always a good thing. My Grandfather persistently physically abused my grandmother and his children. My grandmother couldn't leave him because society back then did not tolerate divorce as it does now and because she was a housewife with no skills for earning an independent living. When I speak to friends who practice psychology, they tell me that two parent households are not good for children if the two parents are fighting or even just quietly seething with discontent. Such family situations, according to my psychologist friends, are quite common. What is good for children is to see their parents content.
Which brings up the second myth, that the decline of two family household is an indication of a social ill. I know of many women, including myself, who are educated, earn a good living and have chosen to be single parents. I am in a much better place than my unhappily married Mother was at my age. My kids are doing pretty well by most standards and I am certain that my divorce was very good for everyone, especially my kids, in the long run.
Correlation does not entail causation. Our society is falling apart and this happens to coincide with a rise in single parenting. This does not mean one has caused the other; anyone who has had basic statistics know this. It is time to stop looking for simple, black and white explanations for complex situations.
Which brings up the second myth, that the decline of two family household is an indication of a social ill. I know of many women, including myself, who are educated, earn a good living and have chosen to be single parents. I am in a much better place than my unhappily married Mother was at my age. My kids are doing pretty well by most standards and I am certain that my divorce was very good for everyone, especially my kids, in the long run.
Correlation does not entail causation. Our society is falling apart and this happens to coincide with a rise in single parenting. This does not mean one has caused the other; anyone who has had basic statistics know this. It is time to stop looking for simple, black and white explanations for complex situations.
23
Well said! I get worried when social prescriptions for our current ills are presented based on marriage "incentives". It sounds like a return to miserable bondage for many, especially women. I really can't figure out any marriage incentives that wouldn't have an element of coercion that I find repellent.
4
you are in denial of statistical norms. that you have anecdotally been a successful single parent does not mean this is a preferred set up for most people. You sound smart and mature: how can you compare yourself to someone 14 of any race, deciding to become a baby-mama, and then doing it over and over and over again?
A few days ago some commenters were saying that the reason that blue states were subsidizing red states was because the blue states are inhabited by the really wealthy, e.g. Hollywood and East Coast elites. I guess there are no middle class people in blue states. How ridiculous. I recently saw a report that median income in Minnesota was approximately 60,000 versus an amount in the 20,000s in South Carolina. When you have a better educated populace with opportunity people make more money. From the beginning of time I am sure that various religions have tried to control human behavior. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. what makes more sense, if you want to encourage stability for adults and children, is to have policies in place to support them. The Republicans want to go back to the good old days, well the good old days in the 1950s included the GI Bill, housing programs, high tax rates for the rich, investment in infrastructure and schools etc. Denial, in the case of southern conservatives, is not just a river in Egypt.
19
Those who claim that the "solution" to poverty is the imposition of stable, supposedly "historically proven" two parent households on an impoverished and hopeless population are as unenlightened as to the true causes of poverty as are those who insist on additional government spending in the form of "new" programs.
Low-paying jobs with few, or no benefits serve only to keep caring and concerned parents working multiple jobs to make ends meet - leaving their children unsupervised and with no structured outlet for their energies. Illness, unemployment, increasing costs-of-living, and a host of other factors lead to the loss of jobs and security, thus worsening the cycle of poverty and hopelessness. This, in turn, leads to the destruction of two-parent families. Hopeless people soon stop pursuing employment, education or other avenues to upward economic mobility. This downward spiral of hopelessness cannot compete with the destructive forces (drug-trade, gangs, etc.) that run rampant in poor communities - both black and white, rural and urban.
Without the availability of, and training for, meaningful, well paying jobs in the impoverished communities - jobs that will allow the residents of these communities (urban, small-town, rural) to invest in, and successfully build upon, a firm economic foundation - there is little hope that any of the proposed "reforms" will, or can, successfully compete with the forces tearing our communities apart.
Low-paying jobs with few, or no benefits serve only to keep caring and concerned parents working multiple jobs to make ends meet - leaving their children unsupervised and with no structured outlet for their energies. Illness, unemployment, increasing costs-of-living, and a host of other factors lead to the loss of jobs and security, thus worsening the cycle of poverty and hopelessness. This, in turn, leads to the destruction of two-parent families. Hopeless people soon stop pursuing employment, education or other avenues to upward economic mobility. This downward spiral of hopelessness cannot compete with the destructive forces (drug-trade, gangs, etc.) that run rampant in poor communities - both black and white, rural and urban.
Without the availability of, and training for, meaningful, well paying jobs in the impoverished communities - jobs that will allow the residents of these communities (urban, small-town, rural) to invest in, and successfully build upon, a firm economic foundation - there is little hope that any of the proposed "reforms" will, or can, successfully compete with the forces tearing our communities apart.
9
There is no particular reason to use "percentage increase" as an indicator of the rise in births to unwed mothers. For instance, a rise from 1% to 2% would show a "percentage increase" of 100%, yet in real terms that's not a large increase at all.
If instead we used an alternative measure, namely the difference in percentage points over time (rather than the ratio), we get 19.7%, 29.6%, and 14.1% percentage point rise for the white, Hispanic, and black categories since 1980 — which paints a rather different picture.
There are probably even better indicators of the rise in births than either of these two.
If instead we used an alternative measure, namely the difference in percentage points over time (rather than the ratio), we get 19.7%, 29.6%, and 14.1% percentage point rise for the white, Hispanic, and black categories since 1980 — which paints a rather different picture.
There are probably even better indicators of the rise in births than either of these two.
2
Edsall does something rather odd. He uses a comparison of the rate of 'births to unwed mothers' between ostensibly socially liberal and socially conservative demographics to suggest that the conservative agenda has fared either no better or worse when it comes to promoting family.
Why is this odd? Because it's obvious to anyone who's paying attention that the conservatives have chosen to look at the phenomenon of unplanned pregnancy and put far greater emphasis on the pro-life agenda rather than on sexual abstinence. Teen pregnancy is a regrettable lapse, but unlike terminating the pregnancy it is eminently forgivable. Recall the drama with the Palin family during the '08 campaign, and how from a conservative perspective the Palin daughter was portrayed as flawed but noble. The contemporary conservative culture draws upon Juno and reality TV about teen moms and places it in opposition to Jenny Slate's Obvious Child or Dunham's Girls.
To assume that comparing rates of births to unwed mothers is a measure of the failure of family values either assumes a liberal perspective or ignores the conservative realignment (or both) which has resulted in lower abortion rates becoming much more profoundly important than lower teen pregnancy rates.
Why is this odd? Because it's obvious to anyone who's paying attention that the conservatives have chosen to look at the phenomenon of unplanned pregnancy and put far greater emphasis on the pro-life agenda rather than on sexual abstinence. Teen pregnancy is a regrettable lapse, but unlike terminating the pregnancy it is eminently forgivable. Recall the drama with the Palin family during the '08 campaign, and how from a conservative perspective the Palin daughter was portrayed as flawed but noble. The contemporary conservative culture draws upon Juno and reality TV about teen moms and places it in opposition to Jenny Slate's Obvious Child or Dunham's Girls.
To assume that comparing rates of births to unwed mothers is a measure of the failure of family values either assumes a liberal perspective or ignores the conservative realignment (or both) which has resulted in lower abortion rates becoming much more profoundly important than lower teen pregnancy rates.
1
Its funny how Latinos are praised for being the 'fastest growing ethnic group', when so much of that growth is due to teen pregnancies. Yet when white people show a tendency to breed, that is a national crisis. Fact is that the Latina teen pregnancy rate is higher in 'enlightened' states like California than the white teen pregnancy is 'white tr***" states. Why is 'Latina' teen pregnancy good -- and you all must think it so because you promote mass immigration from Latino countries with high teen pregnancy rates? Why are whites reproducing themselves bad?
3
My guess is that as the cities go so do the smaller towns. The small towns, thanks to the Internet and TV and the people who control those channels (CBS/Viacom and NBC) push forth lifestyles via its shows that make it acceptable. It is that people watch certain things play out on TV where it be celebrity lifestyles or accepted drug use and drug reform laws etc. does have an impact. If I see my neighbors or fellow citizens partying hard or having divorces and kids out of wedlock then we are more prone to accept and eventually embrace that. There is no right or wrong anymore - just relativism. It is good for me, don't judge me, but then this freedom leads to consequences which individuals and their media enablers don't want to accept. If single parenthood or motherhood is to be "celebrated" despite facts that they will most likely end up in poverty, government dependency, bad behaviors, etc., then if one goes forth there are consequences not just to the individuals but to society. How many fatherless boys are shooting others and end up incarcerated. Then why is it the fault of a "racist" society if their parents adhered to such reckless behavior.
1
I applaud Mr. Edsall's article on the hypocrisy and ignorance of right-wing politicians and media in only blaming Democrats for poverty and societal ills when red states have the higher rates of poverty, teenage births, single-parent households, and drug use . However, he makes no mention of important economic trends that have occurred in the United States since 1980. One has been the steep decline of manufacturing and "industrial" jobs that provided middle-class incomes. Another trend, which has happened simultaneously, has been the increase in part-time, low-wage jobs, such as those found in the fast-food and retail industries (especially big-box stores.) Add in Reaganomics which have given big tax breaks to large corporations and the wealthy, cuts in welfare spending and accessibility, and little investment in our country's infrastructure (which would produce middle-class-type jobs), and you have widening inequality and the decline of the middle class. There are other factors at work, too, which is the point. It's a complex issue and solely blaming the sexual revolution and a decline of morals is simplistic. Edsall is right to note that the Republicans' attempts to fix these deep-seeded problems with socially conservative policies has failed. Why have they failed? Because people need jobs that pay decent wages and that give them futures, not policies and messages that blame them for their own plights. It's still (mainly) the economy, stupid.
11
Thomas Edsall, when it comes to presenting data and insights, you are one of the best. I could feel in my bones the shift among evangelical Protestantism for decades. Remember, these Protestant churches are competing against each other and the secular world for members and funding and there's been a distinct slide in standards for the clergy and then the laity. There's also a subtle shift in emphasis away from personal 'sins', e.g. divorce, adultery and even drug and alcohol use. It's not as if they're condoned, just not as condemned as before. The shift has gone from the personal to the political. Abstentions around smoking, movies, dances, alcohol, divorce, adultery and drug use don't define evangelicals nearly as much as before. White evangelicals don't act any "better" than the general population and as Edsall has revealed in some ways much worse. What now defines them are their political beliefs and voting behavior on issues such as abortion and gays. Actually, among Protestants abortion before 1973 used to be okay but now being anti-abortion is part of the core identity of white evangelicals. With apologies to D. Brooks, it's really the evangelicals who may have become "undermoralized and overpoliticized."
8
It's not just about poverty. It is also about the choices available to these teenage mothers. These teenagers, black and white, might be uneducated and poor, with little prospect of ever reaching the middle class - but it shouldn't necessarily mean they also have to be saddled with children they don't want, or can't or won't care for (because they're too busy and stressed trying to make ends meet on minimum wage, or they have drug, alcohol or other problems.) At the very least these teenagers should have the choice as to when and whether to have kids, as well as access to medical care and information to avoid getting pregnant in the first place. These religious, red states are doing a real disservice to themselves and their "distressed citizens" by restricting access to birth control and abortions.
11
"The right willfully ignores the benefits, and the left willfully ignores the costs, of what is, for better or worse, a world of radically diminished moral constraint."
The pill started it all. Practical constraints fell and moral ones followed. Just what are the benefits, anyway, beyond female "empowerment"? Are children better off?
The pill started it all. Practical constraints fell and moral ones followed. Just what are the benefits, anyway, beyond female "empowerment"? Are children better off?
3
in the cases of good parents, of course the children are better off, because they are wanted and parented properly. The pill has been a fantastic tool for better parenting. It is the avoidance of the pill, or making it hard to get that has led to this disaster.
1
The main accomplishment of "just say no" social conservatives appears to be merely less responsible birth control rather than less extramarital sex:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/03/09/the-sex-lives...
Blue staters have not been following the libertine model they are allegedly preaching: their behavior proves to be conservative on divorce and child-rearing, egalitarian on gender roles, and liberal on social issues.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/02/how-to-save-marriage...
Republicans are fast becoming the party of white losers, in the literal and figurative sense, and the 1% that lives off of them. If that sounds harsh, let me explain: literally because blue collar jobs and wages have been shrinking since the union busting of the Reagan era; figuratively because they tend to blame people of a darker shade for their dilemma, if google maps on the n-word are any indication. Exhibit A: Owsley County, KY: 99.22% white, a national record 49% of the population on food stamps, 72.5% for McCain. And after Romney dissed them and the rest of the 47%? 81% Romney!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/03/09/the-sex-lives...
Blue staters have not been following the libertine model they are allegedly preaching: their behavior proves to be conservative on divorce and child-rearing, egalitarian on gender roles, and liberal on social issues.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/02/how-to-save-marriage...
Republicans are fast becoming the party of white losers, in the literal and figurative sense, and the 1% that lives off of them. If that sounds harsh, let me explain: literally because blue collar jobs and wages have been shrinking since the union busting of the Reagan era; figuratively because they tend to blame people of a darker shade for their dilemma, if google maps on the n-word are any indication. Exhibit A: Owsley County, KY: 99.22% white, a national record 49% of the population on food stamps, 72.5% for McCain. And after Romney dissed them and the rest of the 47%? 81% Romney!
21
A small per centage of the white population of the Confederacy owned slaves and the 90%+/- that did not, still fought on against their economic interests. Their (shakey, at times--class war sentiments rose throughout the war) loyalty was obtained by the fear of freed-slave labor competition and "social issues", i.e., you may be a poor farmner, but you have more social status than persons of color--you're one of us planters and may own slaves yourselves (aspiration). This is the same game played by the oligarchs today to get the majority of whites to vote againstn their economic interests.
1
Kudos to Thomas Edsall for his discussion of our country's social dysfunction, refusing to reduce himself to partisan or ideological labels and simpleminded blame-gaming cliches. Although I remain an unreconstructed, unreformed, card carrying, left wing/liberal fugitive of the sixties I have witnessed time and time again the devastation that broken families or, increasingly, what amounts to weak and fragile family relationships have on children, a problem that increases and becomes compounded over generations. This cuts across racial, religious and most certainly political boundaries. The sooner those on the right and left realize this the sooner we as Americans can work together to rebuilt our fractured families and society.
7
This is a completely bogus narrative. Family formation follows the economic ability to provide for children. Long-term secular decline in standards of living and employability for working class people, especially for African American males, militate against having children and forming traditional families. The extremely high rate of out of wedlock births and absent fathers among black Americans has been true for most of the 20th century due to active discrimination against and incarceration of black males. Thus single parenthood rates have always been higher among black women. This is now becoming more common among working class whites as poverty rates soar among them as well. The spread of more 'liberal' morality around cohabitation, non-traditional families and single-parenthood is largely an adjustment working class people in general have made to accommodate the reality of these economic trends. This is actually pretty simple sociology, but Mr. Edsall seems to have missed it, and like the cultural right has instead focused on 'morality' as the driver of this phenomenon. For them, the cart is driving the horse.
2
What about Asians?
With access to birth control, abortion providers, and education, I would assume that unwed pregnancies are even fewer than whites.
With access to birth control, abortion providers, and education, I would assume that unwed pregnancies are even fewer than whites.
1
What a great article! Mr. Edsall continues to hit home runs, packed with facts and useful insight.
We've got a vicious circle of poverty, offshoring and income inequality in the country. The top 1% is fine; they'll just move further away and build higher walls and continue to get the Red states to vote against their own economic interests by spreading nonsense via their owned media.
If we had 1950-1979 levels of income inequality, the bottom 80% would be getting $11,000 more per year in income. Let's start there.
We've got a vicious circle of poverty, offshoring and income inequality in the country. The top 1% is fine; they'll just move further away and build higher walls and continue to get the Red states to vote against their own economic interests by spreading nonsense via their owned media.
If we had 1950-1979 levels of income inequality, the bottom 80% would be getting $11,000 more per year in income. Let's start there.
9
Reagan once famously said that government is not the solution, rather it's actually part of the problem.
By asserting that republicans in red states cannot fix the problems either, Edsall actually underscores an important conservative principle, which is that government should be small and limited in power. Real conservatives don't believe that government can fix problems. They know that the solutions lie with the communities themselves, and the foundation of community is family, and that if families are broken then communities will be also broken.
It's no secret why Mormons generally raise healthy and well adjusted kids who by and large turn out successful. It's because they're raised with a solid moral foundation in an in-tact, traditional family . It's exactly why the pilgrims were able to build a vibrant society and culture out of the difficult New England wilderness, and this Protestant ethic has actually been much of the basis for the success of America.
America is hurtling toward a cliff at dangerously excessive speeds, and we desperately need to slam on the breaks.
By asserting that republicans in red states cannot fix the problems either, Edsall actually underscores an important conservative principle, which is that government should be small and limited in power. Real conservatives don't believe that government can fix problems. They know that the solutions lie with the communities themselves, and the foundation of community is family, and that if families are broken then communities will be also broken.
It's no secret why Mormons generally raise healthy and well adjusted kids who by and large turn out successful. It's because they're raised with a solid moral foundation in an in-tact, traditional family . It's exactly why the pilgrims were able to build a vibrant society and culture out of the difficult New England wilderness, and this Protestant ethic has actually been much of the basis for the success of America.
America is hurtling toward a cliff at dangerously excessive speeds, and we desperately need to slam on the breaks.
2
The pilgrims did not build a vibrant society. Unless you meant the vibrant colors of the flames that burned men and women as witches?
1
What about poverty? The top nine states the author lists as having the highest percentage of white teen mothers are in the bottom twelve states for income per capita. Poverty might be an effect of these trends, but it also seems likely to be a cause as well.
74
Poverty, and specifically lack of jobs (repeat: lack of jobs), is certainly a main cause of drug abuse, out-of-wedlock births, and decline of marriage. I have seen several articles about this recently in the Times and elsewhere that give reasons to believe lack of jobs is a root cause of "immorality", not the reverse.
2
Apologies, I should have stated that you're 4.5 times more likely to be murdered in Baltimore than Muskogee. Not 7 times.
1
This is an important and disturbing article, and hopefully reduces smug complacence among red-staters.
However, the misery factor is probably much higher in Baltimore than Muskogee because of how dangerous it is to live in Baltimore.
Mr. Edsall chose the following data to compare violent crime in the two cities:
"The violent crime rate in both cities has fallen over the past decade, just as it has nationwide, although the 22.3 percent drop in Baltimore is four times as large as the 5.6 percent decline in Muskogee."
But it would have been more intellectually honest if Mr. Edsall had noted that you're seven times more likely to be murdered in Baltimore than in Muskogee:
Homicide victim rate, per 100,000 residents
U.S. overall ~5.0 [2014]
Muskogee ~8.0 [ 2000-2010]
Baltimore ~35.0 [2014]
However, the misery factor is probably much higher in Baltimore than Muskogee because of how dangerous it is to live in Baltimore.
Mr. Edsall chose the following data to compare violent crime in the two cities:
"The violent crime rate in both cities has fallen over the past decade, just as it has nationwide, although the 22.3 percent drop in Baltimore is four times as large as the 5.6 percent decline in Muskogee."
But it would have been more intellectually honest if Mr. Edsall had noted that you're seven times more likely to be murdered in Baltimore than in Muskogee:
Homicide victim rate, per 100,000 residents
U.S. overall ~5.0 [2014]
Muskogee ~8.0 [ 2000-2010]
Baltimore ~35.0 [2014]
3
The root of societal dysfunction – whether it’s heavy drug use, violence, or anything else – is not attitudes toward premarital sex and cohabitation but rather poverty. If the causality went the other direction – in other words if it were primarily the changes in attitudes toward sex that caused societal breakdown and poverty – then you would expect Scandinavia, San Francisco, and Manhattan to be complete disaster areas. But that’s not the case. Technological advancement and globalization bring many benefits but have also concentrated wealth and opportunity at the top. Rather than put in place policies to help ensure that those benefits are more widespread, Republicans have engaged in a bait and switch. They collect votes by convincing people that social issues are at the root of their declining fortunes, only to turn around and put in place policies that make the situation worse. As the situation gets worse the societal dysfunction increases, adding even further strength to their false narrative. It’s a beautiful system, really, so long you don’t care about the country or its citizens.
155
I agree - but Scandinavia and liberal cities in liberal states also have different sexual attitudes. There is realistic, honest sex education, pro-choice health care access, and public health programs that provide low cost contraception.
This makes huge differences in women's pregnancy and poverty rates.
This makes huge differences in women's pregnancy and poverty rates.
2
Muskogee didn't ask to be chosen by Merle, and they spent a long time trying to live that one down. Muskogee never was the place Merle sang about.
2
Out of wedlock births are a problem? They only seem to be so when you want to raise the topic in terms of the white population.
When speaking of the African-American population liberals and progressive come forward and claim it isn't a problem.
BTW, if you show the change in out of wedlock births since 1960 then, well take a look at it.
When speaking of the African-American population liberals and progressive come forward and claim it isn't a problem.
BTW, if you show the change in out of wedlock births since 1960 then, well take a look at it.
You might want to clarify this. I don't understand. The rise in out of wedlock births has always been seen as a problem, neither white nor black notwithstanding.
In Baltimore, there is a strong Jewish religious community with conservative views - and that community is filled with young married couples with children. Religious values and right-wing views do protect this community from the social ills that afflict those who have given up on traditional morality and personal restraint.
5
Middle class values require middle class jobs.
5
It's worth noting that a central tenet of capitalism is that all works can and should pick up an move to follow employment.
Sure does destroy communities though, doesn't it?
Sure does destroy communities though, doesn't it?
4
I am glad that you nicely illustrated that the societal trends affecting portions of Black America are also affecting portions of White America though conservatives try to ignore it. I am sick of conservatives blaming Baltimore on the inferiority of Black culture. What is the reason for Muskogee - White culture??
4
As the black America went, so is heartland America going. When will we learn that the benign neglect of one group of Americans, adversely affects us all?
5
I’m going to claim a unique platform from which to comment on these problems. I grew up a repressed teenager in the fifties (No sideburns below the center of your ear or you are suspended.), then joined the freedom revolution of the 60’s-70’s. (If it feels good, do it.) From my point of view, the freedom revolution continues. We are discarding all of the old taboos I grew up with and we aren’t finished yet. Many people see a great coarsening of our culture and I agree. Our pop culture, especially, is abysmal. I just saw a movie where couples hopped into bed at the slightest provocation and the F-bomb was lobbed at me in nearly every sentence. But now that all the constraints have been loosened or abolished, we have to sort it out and invent a new kind of culture that values civility, equality, fraternity and love, values we have always given lip service to but rarely achieved. Churchill said the Americans always do the right thing—after we have exhausted all the wrong things. I think we are watching the messy part of the process as it unfolds.
88
We are in decline and soon in freefall, if not already. I am reading Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, and the parallels are stark.
Interesting. I read this as:
"Thirty years after destroying the culture our ancestors built, it’s time to maybe think about replacing it with something. Something befitting our “freedom revolution,” like speech codes and compete dependence on the state."
"Thirty years after destroying the culture our ancestors built, it’s time to maybe think about replacing it with something. Something befitting our “freedom revolution,” like speech codes and compete dependence on the state."
"It can't happen here!" (Frank Zappa & The Mothers of Invention, circa mid 1960's)
2
An excellent takedown of right-wing hyper-religious, sanctimonious, and just plain ridiculous orthodoxy. My compliments, sir.
9
"Okie from Muskogee" was as much an idealized fantasy when it was #1 on the C&W charts as it is today.
America is an 'exceptional' country alright--exceptional in its ability to lie to itself about itself and to believe the lie, and exceptional in the breadth and depth of its hypocrisy.
America is an 'exceptional' country alright--exceptional in its ability to lie to itself about itself and to believe the lie, and exceptional in the breadth and depth of its hypocrisy.
6
Muskogee has about 40,000 people and about 250 churches or about one church for every 180 people. What does this say about churches and disfunction?
7
My profession gives me a window into the world of poverty. Edsall is correct that the problems that effect the inner city African American are also rampant in the rural, poor, white. This is especially true in small and medium sized cities that were centered around a large manufacturing plant that has shuttered its doors. The only real difference is the extreme concentration of poverty in places like Baltimore lead to more violence and the racial overtones of our American caste system are more media worthy than the struggles of those living on the fringe in rural America.
The truth is we may be more connected by our socioeconomic status than our skin color. In areas of low socioeconomic status, single parenthood is rampant and the results are often devastating. Single girls are becoming parents without an education, maturity, career prospects, and often limited parenting skills. Even though they may want the best for their children, they lack the skills and resources to provide a future for their children. These kids start school behind academically and may lack mentorship to help them carve out a differnt path for themselves. Hence the "cycle of poverty".
Meanwhile, higher socioeconomic status couples are marrying and child bearing at a much later age. Often times financially stable, they have the resources to give their childen every advantage in life.
The greatest challenge of inequality is finding a way to bridge this gap.
The truth is we may be more connected by our socioeconomic status than our skin color. In areas of low socioeconomic status, single parenthood is rampant and the results are often devastating. Single girls are becoming parents without an education, maturity, career prospects, and often limited parenting skills. Even though they may want the best for their children, they lack the skills and resources to provide a future for their children. These kids start school behind academically and may lack mentorship to help them carve out a differnt path for themselves. Hence the "cycle of poverty".
Meanwhile, higher socioeconomic status couples are marrying and child bearing at a much later age. Often times financially stable, they have the resources to give their childen every advantage in life.
The greatest challenge of inequality is finding a way to bridge this gap.
5
The problem is, the right wing media portrays the black population as having loose morals, and a depraved culture. They actually get away with this propaganda. I think Mr. Edsell stands with you-- it is the economic system that is depraved for so many that is the problem. 2 Black college educated people move next door to a white college educated couple. both have babies at the same time. They have so much more in common-- including better parenting skills and outcomes-- than either would with the poor people of their own race.
1
Black, white or whatever, we have a real disaster on our hands.
3
The second chart is almost useless. There is a key labeled “Top nine states” that corresponds to nothing in the chart, which seems to portray only the distribution of Southern Baptist counties. You can eyeball the list of high white teenage pregnancy states from a few paragraphs higher and line it up with the map, but you can't get the information from reading the map alone.
I love Ole’ Merle Haggard, and I love America. It makes me sad sometimes to think of what has happened to our country due to all the pre-planned wars for profit, like the “War on Drugs.” All the statistics that are cited in this piece are the aftermath of innocent lives and casualties left behind due to this war that was designed to never win. It is only getting worse. Merle had it right in his lyrics from another song he took to the top of the charts long before it’s time: “Are the good times really over for good.” He sings: “Are we rolling downhill like a snowball headed for hell… With no kinda chance for the flag or the liberty bell… Wish a ford and a Chevy would still last ten years like they should… Is the best of the free life behind us now, are the good times really over for good?” Like a great American poet, through his lyrics and music, he gave us a glimpse of the future of our country long before it became a reality. I do believe that if we make some major changes in our approach and really go after those who are responsible for this mess, that it all can be straightened out. It's going to take a lot of work and willingness to take a look at and consider a different approach.
“Okie from Muskogee” was actually a parody. At the time, Muskogee had a robust pot crowd and counterculture movement.
2
Sooo - this transition away from traditional family is not just happening in urban black communities run by liberals, it's also happening in rural white communities run by conservatives. And what's happening - even though it might look really bad to some - is really no big deal because it's becoming more socially acceptable be born with no father in your life - who needs fathers - right? We really are such terrible people - us straight middle class couples with our houses and two children. We are the problem, but don't worry - soon we'll be a thing of the past. What a confused piece this is - trying desperately to make some point, which neither the writer or editor can even identify. What is the point of this piece? What is the argument? Can anyone answer?
1
The point is to absolve bad actors from their actions by showing that white people can live abysmally, too. To distract the constant focus on inner city residents by showing that Appalachia suffers from exactly the same problems! But the data, while showing an increase in deviancy, does not support the argument, because while the percentages have not increased among the white poor, they are nowhere near the level of social deviancy found among inner city government beneficiaries.
What the article does demonstrate is the baleful effect of Great Society handouts and programs. That they corrupt all who are too weak to withstand the temptation to do nothing to better themselves. Especially when the government gave them an incentive to dependency.
What the article does demonstrate is the baleful effect of Great Society handouts and programs. That they corrupt all who are too weak to withstand the temptation to do nothing to better themselves. Especially when the government gave them an incentive to dependency.
1
Blue states like Maryland should do better than red states like Oklahoma. We start with a sense of shared and public responsibility for each other that the red states reject.
Let us get to work solving our problems as best we can. Let the South go their own way.
Let us get to work solving our problems as best we can. Let the South go their own way.
4
Excellent column.
Bill Clinton used the slogan, "It's the economy stupid" to frame his 1992 presidential campaign. I hope that Hillary will re-cycle, as her own. The post recession economy has not served most Americans well. The social unrest is a reflection of our economic deterioration. We need a leader who will focus on getting well paying jobs.... back to America. It's not a black, white, gay, straight or religious question.... it's all about the economy.
Bill Clinton used the slogan, "It's the economy stupid" to frame his 1992 presidential campaign. I hope that Hillary will re-cycle, as her own. The post recession economy has not served most Americans well. The social unrest is a reflection of our economic deterioration. We need a leader who will focus on getting well paying jobs.... back to America. It's not a black, white, gay, straight or religious question.... it's all about the economy.
4
You could also have cited the HIV outbreak in Indiana. The article elsewhere in today's paper paints a bleak picture of lives ruined beyond repair by poverty, hopelessness and drug abuse. These white red state Americans are living the same nightmare as poor blacks in Baltimore.
Of course the image of white red state republicans prostituting their daughters for drugs (as described in the article) doesn't fit the Fox news/ Bible belt script that all our problems stem from east coast liberals and people of color.
I've got no easy answers, but one thing is clear: both sides of the political spectrum need to get down off their high horse and look for new solutions to what ails America
Of course the image of white red state republicans prostituting their daughters for drugs (as described in the article) doesn't fit the Fox news/ Bible belt script that all our problems stem from east coast liberals and people of color.
I've got no easy answers, but one thing is clear: both sides of the political spectrum need to get down off their high horse and look for new solutions to what ails America
4
One of the best articles I've read in a long time. There can be alot of hiding in statistics (including comparing rates of change vs. absolute rates) but this article has taken is a fairly neutral tone showing each side has issues.
I love this concluding sentance...."The right willfully ignores the benefits, and the left willfully ignores the costs, of what is....."
Nicely done.
I love this concluding sentance...."The right willfully ignores the benefits, and the left willfully ignores the costs, of what is....."
Nicely done.
1
Because comparing a small rural town which is only 55% white with a major city that is 63% black, and has been under full control of the black-liberal-Democrat machine for decades makes total sense.
How about comparing it to the Salt Lake City metro area, for example?
You would be shocked of how starting the contrast is.
Try it.
How about comparing it to the Salt Lake City metro area, for example?
You would be shocked of how starting the contrast is.
Try it.
4
Or the Vatican, for that matter!
Read the whole article, not just the headline. In particular, look at the map showing that eight of the nine states with the highest teenage pregnancy rates are also home of the Southern Baptist Convention, one of the most conservative of the Christian sects. I believe they are also all red states. So growing up under the influence of conservatives in a staunchly religious society with Republican governments does not seem to be the solution, does it? I wonder what the solution is.
Read the whole article, not just the headline. In particular, look at the map showing that eight of the nine states with the highest teenage pregnancy rates are also home of the Southern Baptist Convention, one of the most conservative of the Christian sects. I believe they are also all red states. So growing up under the influence of conservatives in a staunchly religious society with Republican governments does not seem to be the solution, does it? I wonder what the solution is.
1
@CLaudia
You are missing the point.
First of all, the southern states have only recently become Republican. They have been solidly Democratic for a century before that.
Secondly, they have the largest black populations in America, and those citizens live in primarily Democratic controlled areas like Atlanta.
If you want to compare red/white America vs black/Blue America, which is the premise of the article, then do it.
Compare Salt Lake to Baltimore. Compare Boise to Detroit. Etc.
You are missing the point.
First of all, the southern states have only recently become Republican. They have been solidly Democratic for a century before that.
Secondly, they have the largest black populations in America, and those citizens live in primarily Democratic controlled areas like Atlanta.
If you want to compare red/white America vs black/Blue America, which is the premise of the article, then do it.
Compare Salt Lake to Baltimore. Compare Boise to Detroit. Etc.
2
As other comments have noted: changes in social mores are not disconnected from increasing lack of jobs with liveable wages. Indeed they go in lock step with the decline of a true Middle Class
I wonder how West Baltimore would be with an infusion of 10,000 good jobs?
I wonder how West Baltimore would be with an infusion of 10,000 good jobs?
78
Exactly where it is today, because almost none of the current residents have the education to even fill out the online applications for those good-paying jobs.
Nicely done, and thanks. I agree with many of the commenters, though, that morality follows the money. It's lot easier to be virtuous when the heirarchy of needs is met. It's an economic thing, not a race thing.
3
I would think in both cases the marginalization of men, with their high un and under employment rate, also plays a large part
I've always found quite telling conservatives' utter silence regarding the fact that it's the religious South where the supposedly immoral behaviors like single motherhood they love to condemn are most prevalent.
5
These are interesting observations but the elephant in the room is racism. Right wing blather on Baltimore, Ferguson, etc. is not about ideological differences with "the left" or with democrats or even policy or demography. It's about racism.
2
once again FACTS shed a different and more real light on issues. it sad but the national republican movement and establishment has been hypocritical for some time. I say national because at the local level where republicans actually have to make things run they are much more reasonable. but the national, and increasing g state republicans simply react uninformed without real data and just seem to make it up truth or lie and then just keep repeating it.
reasonable republicans offer better ideas engage in finding compromise and want things to wor. yes they prefer their way but they want things to work. at the national level the republican clowns would prefer dysfunction to not getting it their way. and they make up data, ignore facts, avoid history and fail at basic math. if it weren't for the lack of focus democracy's would still run everything which is not good just slightly better than the uninformed national Republican Party.
reasonable republicans offer better ideas engage in finding compromise and want things to wor. yes they prefer their way but they want things to work. at the national level the republican clowns would prefer dysfunction to not getting it their way. and they make up data, ignore facts, avoid history and fail at basic math. if it weren't for the lack of focus democracy's would still run everything which is not good just slightly better than the uninformed national Republican Party.
Really interesting stuff. I had noticed the correlation between Red states and teenage birthrates. Unfortunately, this kind of information will not bee seen by or make any impact on the Sarah Palins, Mike Huckabees, religious ignoramuses and faux news viewers who make up the conservative base and wield disproportionate political power. Seems perverse that the Iowa caucuses are so important, given that Iowa is not at all representative of the nation.
1
Astonishing people who have money fail to understand - the powerlessness poverty, and the hopelessness in its prison-like grip. Meanwhile the predators grow stronger. Housing prices rise into the Zodiac as all the available wealth in all American communities is sucked into the vortex of banks and investors.
3
For some women, having a child out of wedlock is an alternative to getting married. For them, finding a suitable husband during their years of fertility is apparently too hard. Given how hard raising a child by yourself is, I would assume they don't take the decision lightly. In former times, these women might have been pressured to remain childless.
1
What red state areas and inner cities share in common is the most dangerous thing in the world, the loss of hope. For generations, people believed that their kids would do better than they did, that opportunity would be there. If you were blue collar, there were manufacturing jobs that paid a decent wage, if you were white collar, there were opportunities, and it showed in people's optimism.
Today, the only people who feel their kids will do better is the very well off, who have done tremendously well, and the upper middle class (and even there, there is pessimism). The Koch brothers and the GOP have been convincing the blue collar and rural voters that their ills are the fault of government, are the fault of minorities, of welfare and so forth, and they buy into that, despite the fact that with GOP tax policies their lot has only gotten worse in the last 40 years. What has happened is the people there might vote GOP, and be staunchly conservative, but their kids and grandkids are seeing what inner city kids have for a long time, despair, and lack of hope, and the ills we see come from that. The conservative churches are powerless, and worse, because of their alignment with the GOP, they tell their congregations that God wants them rich, that the rich are blessed by God, and if they are poor it is somehow their own fault, they have sold out the gospel of Christ to the Gospel of Ayn Rand. We pretend like the economy is getting better, when in fact it is simply sliding again.
Today, the only people who feel their kids will do better is the very well off, who have done tremendously well, and the upper middle class (and even there, there is pessimism). The Koch brothers and the GOP have been convincing the blue collar and rural voters that their ills are the fault of government, are the fault of minorities, of welfare and so forth, and they buy into that, despite the fact that with GOP tax policies their lot has only gotten worse in the last 40 years. What has happened is the people there might vote GOP, and be staunchly conservative, but their kids and grandkids are seeing what inner city kids have for a long time, despair, and lack of hope, and the ills we see come from that. The conservative churches are powerless, and worse, because of their alignment with the GOP, they tell their congregations that God wants them rich, that the rich are blessed by God, and if they are poor it is somehow their own fault, they have sold out the gospel of Christ to the Gospel of Ayn Rand. We pretend like the economy is getting better, when in fact it is simply sliding again.
4
"The right willfully ignores the benefits, and the left willfully ignores the costs,"
What were the benefits of fatherless children again?
I'd like to hear them. If it means the left will finally confront the damage they have wrought, I'm willing to concede these benefits.
What were the benefits of fatherless children again?
I'd like to hear them. If it means the left will finally confront the damage they have wrought, I'm willing to concede these benefits.
1
It's not simply the transformation of 'norms' or 'diminished moral constraint' it's the transformation of WORK that is at the root of poverty and the behaviors of people - black and white - that live in impovershed areas. There was a time when 'men' could find work in industries that did not require a college degree and which were in most towns and cities. These jobs were primarily union jobs and provided decent wages on which to build a family. This is nothing new. We all know those jobs no longer exist. The result though, is that fewer people can afford to marry which means fewer women have a good pool of solid partners from which to choose. Yet, the drive for motherhood is great in many. I know that in the black community, if a woman wants to have a baby she does. With or without the traditional partner. But our Story has roots in more than just the present day stats. That's another article.
We have seen articles in this paper that show where the men are and where they aren't. We've seen where the jobs are and where they aren't. All racial myths aside - poor people aren't going to stop having babies (though I really do wonder why) regardless of which group they belong to. What everyone needs is work. Substantial, good-paying, permanent work. Without jobs for people nothing is going to get better. Of course, the Republicans have their heads in the sand or 'elsewhere'. All of the blame is to distract from their satanic policies. Old story.
We have seen articles in this paper that show where the men are and where they aren't. We've seen where the jobs are and where they aren't. All racial myths aside - poor people aren't going to stop having babies (though I really do wonder why) regardless of which group they belong to. What everyone needs is work. Substantial, good-paying, permanent work. Without jobs for people nothing is going to get better. Of course, the Republicans have their heads in the sand or 'elsewhere'. All of the blame is to distract from their satanic policies. Old story.
3
It's been known for a long while that the red states, overall, are poorer than the blue states. They thus get more money from the feds that the blue states pay into. Yet, they don't like the government that feeds them. If Democrats are so wrong, why are the richest states the blue ones (Forbes lists MN as the 7th richest state; CA is number 9, Washington DC is #1). and they are majority blue states, while the poorest are primarily red states. MN is the only state that has voted for a Dem president every time since 1972. Out current Dem governor raised taxes on the top earners of our state. We have unions. We get 70 cents on every dollar we give to the feds, and that excess goes to the red states. Baltimore is not the only Democratic city. Democrats are why we have an almost $2 billion dollar surplus, while red states cut taxes and have huge deficits, affecting schools and services to all. Why the voters vote in the yahoos I'll never know. Those who didn't expand Medicaid are hurting their own constituents (of course we expanded it in MN)!
10
Out of wedlock childbirth is the greatest social crisis of the 21st Century. It is the #1 cause of poverty and the main cause of juvenile crime, young adult crime, teen pregnancy and kids dropping out of high school. Not to mention multi generational welfare dependency. And as this article notes, it affects whites as well as blacks.
All levels of govt, civic groups and religious organizations need to declare war on this problem. And to successfully wage that war the *root* causes of the problem have to be faced head on: the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s. Specifically, all the words, claims, isms and philosophies that advocate
"free love", premarital sex, women should act like men in the sex (dog) department, women are just sex objects for man's gratification, hedonism, radical feminism, self absorption me culture, etc. In other words, the rejection of common sense, common decency, common respect and traditional moral values.
Just increasing welfare and Medicaid, etc. will only further ingrain, increase and perpetuate the problem. It is time for tough love.
All levels of govt, civic groups and religious organizations need to declare war on this problem. And to successfully wage that war the *root* causes of the problem have to be faced head on: the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s. Specifically, all the words, claims, isms and philosophies that advocate
"free love", premarital sex, women should act like men in the sex (dog) department, women are just sex objects for man's gratification, hedonism, radical feminism, self absorption me culture, etc. In other words, the rejection of common sense, common decency, common respect and traditional moral values.
Just increasing welfare and Medicaid, etc. will only further ingrain, increase and perpetuate the problem. It is time for tough love.
3
Thanks for shining a bright light on the hypocrisy of red state religious conservatives, and their astonishing support of worthless abstinence programs. Facts and statistics don't count in a faith based conversation, when Rick Perry was interviewed recently about the high and rising rate of teen pregnancy in Texas, his response was simply to deny the facts with a dismissive personal account, "take it from me, abstinence works in Texas."
If there's one thing we know about older teens, it's that they really, really like sex. In this grand 50 state experiment in self government, let's focus on making the blue states as enlightened and progressive as we can, so that we can reduce teen pregnancy and promote safe, consensual and loving sexual relationships for our young people.
If there's one thing we know about older teens, it's that they really, really like sex. In this grand 50 state experiment in self government, let's focus on making the blue states as enlightened and progressive as we can, so that we can reduce teen pregnancy and promote safe, consensual and loving sexual relationships for our young people.
We have the same issues here in Lewis county Washington with high birth rates, drug abuse and poverty with high unemployment. Its highly conservative,scarlet red even. The problem seemed to escalate as the jobs for low skilled workers disappeared, since surrounding the city on the hills are homes of white collared professionals whose children get tracked into AP classes and can escape.
2
Birth control today is taught in public schools and that was not the case fifty years ago. Poverty will not be eliminated in America until people make more wise decisions about birth control. And when poverty continues crime continues and our tax burden continues. It is very unfair (and very sad) for a child to have a parent who cannot afford them now or in the future.
1
Rather than gloating over the fact that ghetto malaise -- family degeneration, drugs and crime -- has befallen rural America, Mr. Edsall should be lamenting how the nationalization of failed progressive policies has produced this result. We pursue job-killing national policies. We have national policies that undermine families. We nationalized the under-performance of our schools. Having done all of this, did anyone actually believe that interior America would be immune from disintegration simply because the people were predominantly white and rural?
At a time when the world economy is becoming more globalized, more interconnected and more technocratic, more and more Americans -- regardless of race or geography -- are seeking the protection of the illusionary federal safety net, rather than doing what is necessary to make America the winning competitor. And once again, we are being asked to put our heads in the sand and elect progressive politicians who will protect us from the forces of global competition.
We need to face the fact that WE are the cause of our economic decline.
At a time when the world economy is becoming more globalized, more interconnected and more technocratic, more and more Americans -- regardless of race or geography -- are seeking the protection of the illusionary federal safety net, rather than doing what is necessary to make America the winning competitor. And once again, we are being asked to put our heads in the sand and elect progressive politicians who will protect us from the forces of global competition.
We need to face the fact that WE are the cause of our economic decline.
2
To what failed progressive policies are you referring? Our lack of national health insurance? Our time limited welfare benefits? A student loan program that allows one to go to college? The height of hypocrisy is to say the south has failed because the rest of us are carrying you. The victimology of the south is getting really old. I read years ago that the school lunch program went into effect because so many were turned away from the military during WWII because of malnutrition. Yes, things were great Get up off your rears and figure it out. And closing down planned parenthood was not the answer.
We need to finally try a remedy that has been suggested before, perhaps on a limited scale in some community in either or both Baltimore and Muskogee:
Namely, paying people to dig holes in the ground and fill them in again.
Lets actually try it and track the results. They call this sort of thing an 'experiment', or a test of a hypothesis. Could it possibly be that an income would benefit those who earned one? Could one even observe changes for the better in their community?
Alas, I fear the possibility of doing this is a pipe dream. People will insist, as if that were important, on doing something 'useful', like filling in the already existing potholes in roads, and the whole experiment will never even get started because nobody will be able to agree on what the 'useful' work is.
They'll miss the point, in other words: people need jobs, and there are not enough of those to go around.
Never mind which is cause and which is effect in this 'chicken and egg' problem of what is the cause of poverty, lack of morals or lack of jobs. Social order requires as a prerequisite that jobs be available.
So lets at least try it as an experiment:
Wanted: persons to dig holes in the ground. No experience necessary.
Namely, paying people to dig holes in the ground and fill them in again.
Lets actually try it and track the results. They call this sort of thing an 'experiment', or a test of a hypothesis. Could it possibly be that an income would benefit those who earned one? Could one even observe changes for the better in their community?
Alas, I fear the possibility of doing this is a pipe dream. People will insist, as if that were important, on doing something 'useful', like filling in the already existing potholes in roads, and the whole experiment will never even get started because nobody will be able to agree on what the 'useful' work is.
They'll miss the point, in other words: people need jobs, and there are not enough of those to go around.
Never mind which is cause and which is effect in this 'chicken and egg' problem of what is the cause of poverty, lack of morals or lack of jobs. Social order requires as a prerequisite that jobs be available.
So lets at least try it as an experiment:
Wanted: persons to dig holes in the ground. No experience necessary.
2
I am the rector of Grace Episcopal Church in Muskogee OK. I have been here for five years. The unflattering picture the author paints of this community is unfortunately quite accurate. The author poses a valuable question about what role the 249 churches in Muskogee played in helping the city become a statistical high point of crime, drug addiction, poor education and teenage pregnancy. In my brief time here it appears to me that the problem is not one of political partisanship but it is simply greed, fear and ignorance. As long as churches sanctify this unholy trinity, the problems identified get worse.
One commentator earlier today implied that religions are the "amphetamine of the masses." My particular parish is marvelously diverse in practically every way. We are engaged in many ways trying to make a difference in this small town. We promote the idea that people should do things to help others and make a difference in this world rather than focusing on their own, narrow self-interest. Whether you call this religion or modernist ethics makes no difference to me or anyone in my parish. Just get involved and do something for somebody else.
One commentator earlier today implied that religions are the "amphetamine of the masses." My particular parish is marvelously diverse in practically every way. We are engaged in many ways trying to make a difference in this small town. We promote the idea that people should do things to help others and make a difference in this world rather than focusing on their own, narrow self-interest. Whether you call this religion or modernist ethics makes no difference to me or anyone in my parish. Just get involved and do something for somebody else.
23
"Those who seek to exploit the transformation of reproductive norms for short-term political gain are tearing at the social fabric."
What Edsall is ignoring is that big cities have high rates of abortion, even when birth control is given out for free. The liberal counter-culture has destroying the social norms and refuses to take responsibility.
It is sad that Tom Edsall uses a town of under 40,000 in order to off-set the problems in Baltimore, with a population over 600,000.
What Edsall is ignoring is that big cities have high rates of abortion, even when birth control is given out for free. The liberal counter-culture has destroying the social norms and refuses to take responsibility.
It is sad that Tom Edsall uses a town of under 40,000 in order to off-set the problems in Baltimore, with a population over 600,000.
It is fascinating to see how such very complex subject is handled through the prism of uncontrolled natural experiment (i.e. progressive- vs conservative- leaning cities), where there are so many inter-related variables that would make such insight inherently flawed. I guess when it comes to our political divide, the sky is the limit.
The correct approach is a controlled experiment, where you select a city that is economically comparable to Baltimore but predominantly conservative and white, except for the police force which is predominantly African Americans and Latinos. Next, give the police the power to profile, frisk and arrest whites without oversight or punitive measures (for accuracy, you also need to have other cities with predominant non-white police force doing the same thing over and over prior to that to set the representative scene). Finally, allow things to go really bad, in that a hopeless white citizen goes bust and loses his life in the midst of all that. Wait for the reaction and then compare the level of violence to that of Baltimore.
Of course, no one with a living brain cell would agree to such experiment, rightfully so. Back to square zero then.. Let's not link the success or the failure of public intervention to the bi-partisan ideological underpinnings. We are just perpetuating a fruitless demagogy. We are either all in it or not. I don't think we afford the latter.
The correct approach is a controlled experiment, where you select a city that is economically comparable to Baltimore but predominantly conservative and white, except for the police force which is predominantly African Americans and Latinos. Next, give the police the power to profile, frisk and arrest whites without oversight or punitive measures (for accuracy, you also need to have other cities with predominant non-white police force doing the same thing over and over prior to that to set the representative scene). Finally, allow things to go really bad, in that a hopeless white citizen goes bust and loses his life in the midst of all that. Wait for the reaction and then compare the level of violence to that of Baltimore.
Of course, no one with a living brain cell would agree to such experiment, rightfully so. Back to square zero then.. Let's not link the success or the failure of public intervention to the bi-partisan ideological underpinnings. We are just perpetuating a fruitless demagogy. We are either all in it or not. I don't think we afford the latter.
Personally, I don't believe unwed motherhood should be cast as an issue of "morality." But it is both ironic and telling that the incidence of unwed motherhood is rising in the Bible Belt, where it IS cast in moral terms.
4
Oh, come on Mr. Edsall. If the facts don't support the Republican ideology of unrestricted free enterprise, small government and fundamentalist religion, then there is clearly something wrong with the facts.
6
Bravo. Thank you for this article, Mr. Edsall.
Well I did find today's column to be excellent , I do think it is unconstitutional. One simply cannot own another person they way Edsal owned Nolte and Ingraham.
3
I absolutely love this! An objective look at hot button issues. What is needed, however, is a longer time line. I grew up in Memphis and went to high school a few blocks from the edge of Orange Mound, a large black middle class neighborhood that appeared to be thriving. Between the time I left for college in 1960 and 1974 when I took a job in Little Rock and had time on my visits to Memphis to look at my old digs, it appeared that middle class life in Orange Mound was largely over. Since then, we have been deconstructing white families in much the same way that we destroyed black families earlier. The number of children born to unwed mothers is probably the best single indicator, though more is involved. The problem is what is/are the most important casual factor(s). I vote for the lack of decent jobs as the critical factor. Remember, states that vote for Republicans also trend to be poor, relatively uneducated, and not generating, on average, a lot of good jobs. Economics trumps so-called conservative cultural values.
6
The answer is obvious -- free and ubiquitous contraception.
Promiscuity need not result in unplanned, unwanted, un-cared-for, and pre-criminal children! Conservatives need to stop trying to punish those of us who have low morals (by punishing our innocent children, no less!!) and start helping the country by providing the means to avoid heavy societal burdens such as unplanned pregnancies and their consequences.
Promiscuity need not result in unplanned, unwanted, un-cared-for, and pre-criminal children! Conservatives need to stop trying to punish those of us who have low morals (by punishing our innocent children, no less!!) and start helping the country by providing the means to avoid heavy societal burdens such as unplanned pregnancies and their consequences.
6
I'm thinking the same generational poverty that has degraded black culture is starting to kick in for poor whites. Segregation and discrimination gave the blacks a head start on "bad values" but trickle down economics has been an equal opportunity destroyer for a generation now so more are feeling the pain. Conservatives may have to give up their cherished myth of poor black values.
14
The author while pointing to the right wing agenda against abortion falls to mention the opposition of the most zealously religious to birth control. This and not lack of aces to abortion is what's behind the high teenage pregnancy rates. It also reflects a medieval attitude towards women in genral, where they belong to home and hearth, rather than out making a life for themselves in the working world. I am sure the church's dogma of making sex into forbidden fruit only enhances the charm for young unprepared kids to bite into it.
8
Pres.Obama, well meaning as he seems, doesn't address the issue of absentee fathers as a national issue, instead of just a black fault.
Whites can be just as dysfunctional. They have a complex issue, how do we address it if we won't admit it? If you are always pointing to blacks and latinos, praising Asians or Indians ( of course not native american) exempting whites, groups that are vilified become the source of attention, derision, and condemnation.
Hypocrisy has been an American characteristic going back to even when Haiti won its independence from France, the U.S. refused to support their liberty.
Why? African slaves had fought and won their freedom from a powerful nation. The U.S. in fact,suppressed and oppressed Haiti for the sake of "white supremacy". It was vital during that time not to let the spirit of liberty incite African slaves in America to revolt. No wild notions of freedom. To this very day Haiti is being exploited by the likes of the Clintons and other wealthy parasites, exploiting further vulnerability after the earthquake.
White America had and still does have a sort of "crack" epidemic with "meth".They also have an insurgence of heroin addicts. At one time black faces were shown to be the "all American dope fiend". Now we see it infects anyone,even those from middle class upbringing.
Can anyone say Staten Island?
Imagine the despair affecting poor folks, turning to drugs as a pain killer for social ills? Apathy...
America,home of the hypocrite...
Whites can be just as dysfunctional. They have a complex issue, how do we address it if we won't admit it? If you are always pointing to blacks and latinos, praising Asians or Indians ( of course not native american) exempting whites, groups that are vilified become the source of attention, derision, and condemnation.
Hypocrisy has been an American characteristic going back to even when Haiti won its independence from France, the U.S. refused to support their liberty.
Why? African slaves had fought and won their freedom from a powerful nation. The U.S. in fact,suppressed and oppressed Haiti for the sake of "white supremacy". It was vital during that time not to let the spirit of liberty incite African slaves in America to revolt. No wild notions of freedom. To this very day Haiti is being exploited by the likes of the Clintons and other wealthy parasites, exploiting further vulnerability after the earthquake.
White America had and still does have a sort of "crack" epidemic with "meth".They also have an insurgence of heroin addicts. At one time black faces were shown to be the "all American dope fiend". Now we see it infects anyone,even those from middle class upbringing.
Can anyone say Staten Island?
Imagine the despair affecting poor folks, turning to drugs as a pain killer for social ills? Apathy...
America,home of the hypocrite...
4
This excellent article by Mr. Edsall, with it's well thought out and presented facts, demonstrates again how conservatives just do not want to look at this country as a whole, but manipulate information simply to support their agenda of fear and misinformation.
4
This makes me sad. I lived in Muskogee from 3-5th grade (79-81), went to Saint Joseph's Catholic school and remember it being ok.
2
How about a 'jobs culture'? If you're able to obtain a job because of your initiative or good fortune that's great. If you're not able to find work for whatever reason how about society provides you with work (yes, conservatives, I mean the government). We have some experience with this, WPA, CCC, Workfare, etc. There's plenty to do at all levels.
7
I've been researching the types of statistics cited in this piece for years, so I'm not particularly surprised at these findings. What DOES surprise me, however, is the spineless reticence of the Democratic Party to expose conservativism for the failed agenda that it is. The talking points against the Republican agenda practically write themselves!
10
moral constraints fail when people cannot afford to marry, set up house and raise children. Children happen anyway, as they always do, but not in the context of a family. The main driver of this shift in morality is not the hippies in the sixties, but economic changes of the last thirty years. When a man can't earn a living wage, he doesn't marry. Doesn't matter the color of his skin or what church he goes to.
11
What I find missing, is what I think is the driving story: the disappearance of middle class jobs. People still go through the lifecycle and have kids whether there is a suitable mate or not. Grown ups unable to support a family, lose all moral authority, and provide a poor or no role model for kids. Want to see more out of wedlock single parent kids, more meth labs and more misery? Just make it harder on the lower 2 quintiles. Now about that TPP fast track issue.....
5
At the time Haggard recorded that god-awful song, either Life or Look did an expose on the town of Muskogee and whether or not it was true to the idyllic poster he painted with his lyrics. It wasn't. My favorite picture was the college students in the police station after being busted for pot.
I don't whose values were being represented in the song, but they sho' weren't Haggard's or any other country singer at that time.
(Damn! Tune's already started playing in my head where it'll stick like velcro for the rest of the day. Thank you very much, Mr Edsall.)
I don't whose values were being represented in the song, but they sho' weren't Haggard's or any other country singer at that time.
(Damn! Tune's already started playing in my head where it'll stick like velcro for the rest of the day. Thank you very much, Mr Edsall.)
2
The demographic shift that Mr. Edsall refers to is a result of the Industrial Revolution. None of this is new. The leading edge of the demographic shift was being written about and discussed in France in the late 19th Century.
Appalachia is almost all white and suffers from the same problems as black inner cities: welfare and drug dependency, broken families, high unemployment. The only difference is that Appalachia does not have the violent crime that the inner cities do. So how do we explain the similar outcomes? What is the common ground? Is it racism? No, that doesn't explain why white Appalachia should be so much like black Baltimore. The common ground seems to be welfare - the fruits of Lyndon Johnson's Great Society - and the dependency that it creates.
2
Whoa, that's quite a leap. You're saying that Appalachians don't touch any social support?
Study after study after points to poverty. Try that on for size. your criticism of social support programs is accurate in that regard: it cannot remove poverty, just decrease the impact.
Study after study after points to poverty. Try that on for size. your criticism of social support programs is accurate in that regard: it cannot remove poverty, just decrease the impact.
1
Nice try but people wouldn't be on welfare if they had good paying jobs.
Maybe low incomes is the common ground?
2
Twenty years ago, while serving in the Illinois State Legislature, I sponsored a bill which allowed a woman currently on welfare to collect increases in housing, food, and medical allowances for children conceived and birthed while on welfare, but not the increased $50 monthly cash allowance at the time. The legislation passed out of the Republican controlled Senate, and I became the Chief Sponsor in the Illinois House.
I sponsored the bill, even though I am a democrat, because I was tired of hearing “These welfare women keep having babies because they want to collect the extra welfare payments.” Welfare advocates had told me for years that was a false racist canard. So I thought I’d test it out. House Democratic Leadership sent the bill to a committee with many Chicago legislators.
When I presented the bill in committee the black women legislators went nuts, “How dare I propose taking money from mothers struggling to support her family. It was un-American!” Of course, women and families not on welfare don’t get a pay raise for having more children, but that was a concept completely foreign to many Chicago liberals and minorities.
The bill failed in committee. Afterwards a couple Chicago male legislators spoke with me and said “There’s no use talking personal responsibility to these women. Better just walk past it.” And so it goes.
I sponsored the bill, even though I am a democrat, because I was tired of hearing “These welfare women keep having babies because they want to collect the extra welfare payments.” Welfare advocates had told me for years that was a false racist canard. So I thought I’d test it out. House Democratic Leadership sent the bill to a committee with many Chicago legislators.
When I presented the bill in committee the black women legislators went nuts, “How dare I propose taking money from mothers struggling to support her family. It was un-American!” Of course, women and families not on welfare don’t get a pay raise for having more children, but that was a concept completely foreign to many Chicago liberals and minorities.
The bill failed in committee. Afterwards a couple Chicago male legislators spoke with me and said “There’s no use talking personal responsibility to these women. Better just walk past it.” And so it goes.
2
Very much appreciated this piece and plan to share it.
I for one am perfectly fine with the "new moral" directon our society appears to be taking. It should be kept in mind that rising birth rates among unwed mothers is not only taking place among women who are older but is frequently by choice.
And while teenage pregnancy is a problem –the numbers you site for various states is consistent with the huge decline in teenage pregnancies over the past 20 years. In other words – Between 1990 and 2010 (the most recent year for which data are available), the teen pregnancy rate declined by 51 percent—from 116.9 to 57.4 pregnancies per 1,000 teen girls. The highest teen pregnancy rate you site is in WVA at 64 – a number close to half of what it was 20 years ago and not much greater than the current national average. I pulled these numbers from a 2015 report by the U.S. Dept. of HHS.
I for one am perfectly fine with the "new moral" directon our society appears to be taking. It should be kept in mind that rising birth rates among unwed mothers is not only taking place among women who are older but is frequently by choice.
And while teenage pregnancy is a problem –the numbers you site for various states is consistent with the huge decline in teenage pregnancies over the past 20 years. In other words – Between 1990 and 2010 (the most recent year for which data are available), the teen pregnancy rate declined by 51 percent—from 116.9 to 57.4 pregnancies per 1,000 teen girls. The highest teen pregnancy rate you site is in WVA at 64 – a number close to half of what it was 20 years ago and not much greater than the current national average. I pulled these numbers from a 2015 report by the U.S. Dept. of HHS.
1
As aspects delineated in 'Sex, Drugs and Poverty in Red and Blue America' intersect the economic failure of states such as Kansas, to name but one, this appears to create a potential for intense public resistance. The Republican conservative agenda, led by twice elected governor Sam Brownback (with Arthur Laffer), is intent on forcing social and economic behavior on those not benefiting from his financial and social policies. Other states appear to be following this lead.
Not only will the so-called have-nots be in desperate economic condition, but also those marginalized by laws specifically designed to force social behavior under the threat of law. To quote from Policy.Mic;
'2 Years Since Cutting Taxes on the Rich, Here's What Happened to the Economy in Kansas', Policy.Mic, by Gregory Krieg, March 12, 2015 “. . . a promise to slash taxes for the state's highest earners and eliminate them almost entirely for nearly 200,000 private businesses — a program he would later call a "real live experiment" in conservative government.”
“On its current path, Kansas is expected to be in a $900 million hole by 2019. This year, the state is facing a $279 million budget gap — a stunning reversal for a government that had a $700 million surplus just two years ago.”
This may well be a formula for a repeat of riots such as those that have occurred in the United States over the past decades, such as Baltimore.
Once started, the tooth paste will not go back in the tube.
Not only will the so-called have-nots be in desperate economic condition, but also those marginalized by laws specifically designed to force social behavior under the threat of law. To quote from Policy.Mic;
'2 Years Since Cutting Taxes on the Rich, Here's What Happened to the Economy in Kansas', Policy.Mic, by Gregory Krieg, March 12, 2015 “. . . a promise to slash taxes for the state's highest earners and eliminate them almost entirely for nearly 200,000 private businesses — a program he would later call a "real live experiment" in conservative government.”
“On its current path, Kansas is expected to be in a $900 million hole by 2019. This year, the state is facing a $279 million budget gap — a stunning reversal for a government that had a $700 million surplus just two years ago.”
This may well be a formula for a repeat of riots such as those that have occurred in the United States over the past decades, such as Baltimore.
Once started, the tooth paste will not go back in the tube.
3
Another example of actual data not just trumping but completely obliterating right-wing 'talking points'!
Now what can be done to get the people who need it the most to actually LOOK at and ACCEPT the data??
The level of denial about any number of social issues in the USA is simply astounding. There's no way to effectively deal with realities to which huge portions of the population remain willfully blind.
I don't see any of this improving, let alone ending well, for our once-great country.
Now what can be done to get the people who need it the most to actually LOOK at and ACCEPT the data??
The level of denial about any number of social issues in the USA is simply astounding. There's no way to effectively deal with realities to which huge portions of the population remain willfully blind.
I don't see any of this improving, let alone ending well, for our once-great country.
3
This article doesn't address the issue of why immorality is increasing. Conservatives assert it is because it is subsidized by the welfare system. If that is wrong, it is the obligation of a liberal op-ed writer to show that it is wrong.
All this article shows is that traditional religion hasn't curbed immorality in Muskogee. But it doesn't tell us if traditional religion contributes to immorality or is a failed response to it.
All this article shows is that traditional religion hasn't curbed immorality in Muskogee. But it doesn't tell us if traditional religion contributes to immorality or is a failed response to it.
Traditional religious leaders have revealed themselves to be as corrupt and corruptible as the flock they're supposed to be tending but that's a red herring.
Jobs aren't the cure either. Plenty of people work jobs just to get a room, cigarettes and booze or drugs but even among the folks who want more out of life there is a sense of hopelessness; that the ship has sailed and they aren't on it. That's what starts the moral decay. Without hope, why bother?
Jobs aren't the cure either. Plenty of people work jobs just to get a room, cigarettes and booze or drugs but even among the folks who want more out of life there is a sense of hopelessness; that the ship has sailed and they aren't on it. That's what starts the moral decay. Without hope, why bother?
Of course areas where social conservatives are in the saddle politically are the areas where teen-age pregnancy and birth would by rising. This is because it's difficult, if not impossible, to obtain an abortion in those areas. And teen-agers usually don't have the resources to travel. They're stuck.
3
The self-styled "conservatives" (even Buckley is rolling in his grave) of today always talk about taking back "OUR COUNTRY." Seems they need to take it back from themselves.
99
Morals don't feed people. Abstinence only classes don't teach students what to do instead of intercourse. Being forced to have children they can't support, don't want, or both, doesn't make women better parents. Being unable to find a job that pays enough money does not turn one into a better person. Nor does being told that one ought to try harder, move somewhere else, go for training (and pay for it out of non existent monies) help. Telling people that being gay is unnatural never led to a person's changing their inborn sexual urges. Throwing someone in jail for stealing food when they are starving and can't pay for it because they don't have money, or because they are homeless doesn't solve the basic issue.
These are human problems and they will always be with us. We can lessen their occurrence by providing jobs with decent income to all who want to work and are able to work. We can have a better social safety net than one that says if you're out of luck, too bad. There's plenty of work that needs to be done. If the salaries were decent more people would do those jobs. If more "volunteer work" was paid more people would be working. But in America we believe in penalizing the unemployed, the single parent, the single adult, the sick and the handicapped. We can't always pull ourselves up without help. With the correct kind of help we might succeed and even contribute.
These are human problems and they will always be with us. We can lessen their occurrence by providing jobs with decent income to all who want to work and are able to work. We can have a better social safety net than one that says if you're out of luck, too bad. There's plenty of work that needs to be done. If the salaries were decent more people would do those jobs. If more "volunteer work" was paid more people would be working. But in America we believe in penalizing the unemployed, the single parent, the single adult, the sick and the handicapped. We can't always pull ourselves up without help. With the correct kind of help we might succeed and even contribute.
12
See this is what liberals do. Counter our opinions and beliefs with numbers, charts and reasoning. I didn't even bother reading past the first paragraph. Why read when you can have opinions.
5
"Sex, Drugs and Poverty in Red and Blue America"
i didn't see any mention of alcohol and tobacco in the article, which are far more pernicious and harmful than marijuana and LSD. alcohol fuels violence and increases the risk of (car) accidents; it also is often associated with (out of wedlock) sex. tobacco destroys the lungs.
alcohol and tobacco are equal opportunity poisons, although tobacco is favored by the poor and uneducated.
i didn't see any mention of alcohol and tobacco in the article, which are far more pernicious and harmful than marijuana and LSD. alcohol fuels violence and increases the risk of (car) accidents; it also is often associated with (out of wedlock) sex. tobacco destroys the lungs.
alcohol and tobacco are equal opportunity poisons, although tobacco is favored by the poor and uneducated.
In looking at the map of unwed mothers, I wonder if it provides additional proof that unwed motherhood is correlated with educational level in addition to poverty............
The article is proof that there are plenty of stupid white people too, and that their numbers appear to be rising :)
No surprises here.......
The article is proof that there are plenty of stupid white people too, and that their numbers appear to be rising :)
No surprises here.......
3
Let's not shoot the messenger. Things are a mess all over the place. In places where jobs are disappearing, the problems are only getting worse.
1
It's not a black or white issue, nor is it a red or blue state issue. It's a loss of morals issue. Society at large has become totally consumed with sex, drugs, self-conceit and money. To think that giving a person a job or government housing will cure his moral depravity is simply absurd. All you've done is provide money and a place to continue to engage in such behavior. What we have here is a crisis of morals and a loss of values. Restoring sanity to the world and promoting a healthy environment for all people regardless of race, gender or religion starts with the family. Moms & dads must parent and that means teaching their children about right from wrong, about sex and drugs, about finances and the virtues of hard work, and about consequences for bad decisions. This seems to be lacking more and more as time passes. Many parents have given up, relegating their responsibility to the TV or Internet. If we want to change things, parents need to reengage and begin promoting decent values that will ultimately protect their children and give them a fighting chance. The moral crisis in America is not a problem the gov't can spend its way out of and ever hope to fix because the problem lies within the very heart and soul of the people. In the end, what our society needs the most is a revival of good character that will ultimately lead to greater opportunities for those who are stuck in poverty or adversely impacted by current policies. But it all starts in the home!
1
That would be the homes where both parents are working trying to keep everyone fed with a roof over their head? Let go of the Leave it to Beaver fantasy and start advocating for a living wage for full time work and affordable health care.
1
I remember Merle singing that awful, divisive song, standing in a sea of flags (ironically, I think it was the Smothers Brothers show). Its important to remember that the campaign to divide America did not begin with Fox News.
I am waiting for a leader. Someone who, upon seeing what passes for leaders nowadays as they sign away hope with agreements like NAFTA, will stand up and say "Sir, at long last, you no decency?"
Of course education is crucial. But explain to me how a 40 year old with a high school education is going to learn cutting edge skills quickly, and to a degree where they can compete with younger people who are better suited and need those jobs too.
Sure, we need world class education. But the immediate need for the people discussed in this article is reasonable paying, low-skilled jobs. That's reality. At the very, very least we must do all we can to prevent the loss of even a single job that can be performed by an American with little education.
I am waiting for a leader. Someone who, upon seeing what passes for leaders nowadays as they sign away hope with agreements like NAFTA, will stand up and say "Sir, at long last, you no decency?"
Of course education is crucial. But explain to me how a 40 year old with a high school education is going to learn cutting edge skills quickly, and to a degree where they can compete with younger people who are better suited and need those jobs too.
Sure, we need world class education. But the immediate need for the people discussed in this article is reasonable paying, low-skilled jobs. That's reality. At the very, very least we must do all we can to prevent the loss of even a single job that can be performed by an American with little education.
2
The fact of life is that single parenthood is a dangerous path to poverty. Sadly it take two minimum wage jobs in America to get out of official poverty. These trends will rocket onward if the Trans Pacific Partnership is implemented and we lose more of our manufacturing base and completely eliminate unions in the private sector.
Who will stand for the middle class let alone the urban and rural poor?
Who will stand for the middle class let alone the urban and rural poor?
10
There's no reason for either Democrats or Republicans to feel superior about these issues. Working class Americans have been abandoned by the leadership class of our country for a couple of generations now, and the fruits of this abandonment litter our landscape, our work environments, our commerce, and the lives of our friends and neighbors.
Life outside our nationally recognized 'news making' areas is mostly ignored, and the economies of our towns and cities have been ravaged to the benefit of organizations with a national or worldwide scope. Our public schools graduate hordes of persons who think they have been educated, but in fact have only rudimentary reading and math skills.
This is mostly obvious to everyone who lives on or near the street, and has been for a decade or more.
Speaking of the 'street', I can say with experience that both in Baltimore and Muskogee -- and all points in between-- an overwhelming majority of our citizens act with respect, politeness, civility, and understanding when they are in the public sphere -- regardless of deeply held belief.
Its troubling that this civility and understanding seems to be nowhere reflected in our media -- blandly repeating lies as fact; our leadership, where compromise and efficiency take a back seat to pandering, fund raising, and blatant self aggrandizement; and our crumbling infrastructure, which provides a dismal symbolic backdrop to the crumbling of our society.
Life outside our nationally recognized 'news making' areas is mostly ignored, and the economies of our towns and cities have been ravaged to the benefit of organizations with a national or worldwide scope. Our public schools graduate hordes of persons who think they have been educated, but in fact have only rudimentary reading and math skills.
This is mostly obvious to everyone who lives on or near the street, and has been for a decade or more.
Speaking of the 'street', I can say with experience that both in Baltimore and Muskogee -- and all points in between-- an overwhelming majority of our citizens act with respect, politeness, civility, and understanding when they are in the public sphere -- regardless of deeply held belief.
Its troubling that this civility and understanding seems to be nowhere reflected in our media -- blandly repeating lies as fact; our leadership, where compromise and efficiency take a back seat to pandering, fund raising, and blatant self aggrandizement; and our crumbling infrastructure, which provides a dismal symbolic backdrop to the crumbling of our society.
10
I don't think the Republicans ever claimed that they could fix the problems brought on by the liberal revolutions of sex and marriage; they simply allow people to suffer the ill effects of poor choices. The Democrats, on the other hand, claimed that there would be no ill effects, and that their programs would fix poverty and the various problems of single parenthood. The Republican claim was never that they had the answer to the problems of the new liberal society; their claim was that the new liberal society was a bad thing, and that they didn't want to pay for Democratic solutions that haven't and won't work. There's nothing in Baltimore or Muskogee to counter that notion.
2
Without having much to say about the rest of the argument, someone should point out that the chart plotting single-parent births is horribly misleading. Not so much the data; but the "% changes", which would appear to be the increase in single parent births divided by what it used to be, and multiplied by 100%.
Problem is that the maximum is always 100%; so starting from 90% unwed mother births (hypothetically, of course), the maximum increase can only be 10%, to 100%, which the chart would call an 11% increase; whereas starting from 1% and increasing, say, to 11%--the same % increase--the chart would calculate an 1000% increase. So to say that the the increase is slower in the black community is to say little more than that they started at a much higher number. Whoever printed this chart either had an agenda, or didn't care what the data actually had to say.
More meaningful would be to plot what fraction of the previously two-parent children have been transformed into one-parent children. For the black population, it was 42.7% in 1980, and is now 28.6%; that means 1/3 of the two-parent children have disappeared. For the whites, it was 90.4% in 1980, is now 70.7; that means about 2/9 of those two-parent children are gone.
Which leads to the opposite conclusion...the black families--even though they are rarer to begin with--are still disappearing faster than white....(though the Hispanic two-parent families are disappearing faster than either black or white...).
Problem is that the maximum is always 100%; so starting from 90% unwed mother births (hypothetically, of course), the maximum increase can only be 10%, to 100%, which the chart would call an 11% increase; whereas starting from 1% and increasing, say, to 11%--the same % increase--the chart would calculate an 1000% increase. So to say that the the increase is slower in the black community is to say little more than that they started at a much higher number. Whoever printed this chart either had an agenda, or didn't care what the data actually had to say.
More meaningful would be to plot what fraction of the previously two-parent children have been transformed into one-parent children. For the black population, it was 42.7% in 1980, and is now 28.6%; that means 1/3 of the two-parent children have disappeared. For the whites, it was 90.4% in 1980, is now 70.7; that means about 2/9 of those two-parent children are gone.
Which leads to the opposite conclusion...the black families--even though they are rarer to begin with--are still disappearing faster than white....(though the Hispanic two-parent families are disappearing faster than either black or white...).
6
In Muskgokee, white drug addict criminals get their own dedicated court, in Baltimore they spend millions a year on beating innocent black citizens.
How many Muskgokee cops have shot unarmed civilians in the last several years?
Point is that Baltimore riots not because of the failure of a social program applied to it's citizens, but because it's Police regularly beat and kill citizens with impunity.
How many Muskgokee cops have shot unarmed civilians in the last several years?
Point is that Baltimore riots not because of the failure of a social program applied to it's citizens, but because it's Police regularly beat and kill citizens with impunity.
4
Thomas Edsall has basically rediscovered much of the approach and some of the conclusions published in Charles Murray's book, "Coming Apart", published in 2012. That book goes much further in depth and with much more rigorously accurate statistical analysis (statistics is badly mis-used in this article).
Where Murray and Edsall diverge strongly is on the importance of religion. Both viewpoints are useful to read, so you can form your own conclusions.
Where Murray and Edsall diverge strongly is on the importance of religion. Both viewpoints are useful to read, so you can form your own conclusions.
5
Mr. Edsall, with all his degrees and erudition, apparently is not aware that Merle Haggard (born in Oildale, CA, 1937, of Okie parents) wrote his famous song tongue-in-cheek.
51
tongue-in-cheek maybe or even true but that is not the point of the article. Sadly we focus on these points and miss the point or the elephant standing in the room.
1
Mr. Edsall has 1 degree and was a reporter for 25 years before becoming a professor.
Merle Haggard said he wrote Okee in remembrance of his dead father and in reaction to the arrogant hippies.
Merle Haggard said he wrote Okee in remembrance of his dead father and in reaction to the arrogant hippies.
1
Yes but people didn't take it that way.
1
Fewer jobs = fewer families.
More jobs = more familiies.
Red, Blue, Black, White — all the same.
More jobs = more familiies.
Red, Blue, Black, White — all the same.
2
Ah, the sticks: land of meth-heads, boozers, and pregnant 16-year-olds. The notion that cultural rot can be blamed on one political party and its economic policies is farfetched. And there's no way in hell we're headed back to the '50s, so I'm not sure what we're going to do. The exposure today's kids have to different ways of life makes it all but impossible to reinstitute moral codes -- were it desirable to do so -- that are seen as stuffy, repressive, antiquated.
What I don't want to see is reflexive liberal rejection of any moralizing whatsoever; I think that's destructive. We have to acknowledge that conservatives exist and are going to continue to exist and that, if we want to change things for the better, for everyone, we're going to have to work together, forge compromise, and discontinue the unending demonization (even when that's all we're getting from the other end).
I think if liberals would give some ground on the cultural issues, perhaps conservative voters would be more willing to stop thinking with their hearts and start using their brains, and see that there are issues under discussion besides God and family values, that economic policy matters a lot, and that there's a difference between social democracy and socialism. But maybe it's too late.
Workers have taken a hit or two or ten, but these problems don't all stem from impecuniousness. Conservatives are not wrong about everything, just almost everything.
What I don't want to see is reflexive liberal rejection of any moralizing whatsoever; I think that's destructive. We have to acknowledge that conservatives exist and are going to continue to exist and that, if we want to change things for the better, for everyone, we're going to have to work together, forge compromise, and discontinue the unending demonization (even when that's all we're getting from the other end).
I think if liberals would give some ground on the cultural issues, perhaps conservative voters would be more willing to stop thinking with their hearts and start using their brains, and see that there are issues under discussion besides God and family values, that economic policy matters a lot, and that there's a difference between social democracy and socialism. But maybe it's too late.
Workers have taken a hit or two or ten, but these problems don't all stem from impecuniousness. Conservatives are not wrong about everything, just almost everything.
3
"The fact is that the poor and working classes of both races were not well equipped to adjust to changes in behavior driven by the sexual revolution and the second demographic transition – a collection of forces that are inexorably changing the family, marriage patterns and child rearing worldwide"
Period. Mr. Edsall you forgot the period [.] at the end of your paragraph.
Period. Mr. Edsall you forgot the period [.] at the end of your paragraph.
Nice to see some facts for a change when discussing the problems facing society.
However, the author completely misses the point when discussing the underlying causes of these social ills. When the deck is stacked against the middle class, middle class jobs have gone overseas, the rich own Congress, the disparity in wealth between the rich and the poor is huge and growing, and when American is no longer the land of opportunity for poor and middle income America, you get Baltimore and Muskogee.
However, the author completely misses the point when discussing the underlying causes of these social ills. When the deck is stacked against the middle class, middle class jobs have gone overseas, the rich own Congress, the disparity in wealth between the rich and the poor is huge and growing, and when American is no longer the land of opportunity for poor and middle income America, you get Baltimore and Muskogee.
8
The problem in Baltimore, Muskogee and countless other cities is not moral decline but lack of anything constructive for people to do.
Here is what a good job paying a living wage does to a person: It makes that person anxious to keep that job, to maintain a steady income that covers the needs and a few "wants"—a better TV, nice shoes, etc.
Now there is a reason to get out of bed early—no late-night partying on weeknights! There's a reason to shower and shave—no more ambling around in dirty sweats and a t-shirt. Seeing themselves clean, tidy, and in nice clothes is a powerful motivator for most people.
Now it's important to apply oneself to one's responsibilities. It starts to make sense to limit family size, since new babies disrupt schedules and paychecks aren't fattened just because there's a new mouth to feed. And so on.
If the goddamned politicians took the energy they exert pointing fingers at each other and applied it to reducing under- and unemployment, you'd see a sharp decrease in undesirable behavior.
It's not as if there isn't enough work to be done. For example, many problems could be solved by repairing and maintaining US roads, bridges, dams, airports, etc. That's what adults would do. But too many elected representatives suffer from arrested development, and all we get from them is tantrums, blame-shifting, and name-calling. When will the grown-ups come back and run this country again?
Here is what a good job paying a living wage does to a person: It makes that person anxious to keep that job, to maintain a steady income that covers the needs and a few "wants"—a better TV, nice shoes, etc.
Now there is a reason to get out of bed early—no late-night partying on weeknights! There's a reason to shower and shave—no more ambling around in dirty sweats and a t-shirt. Seeing themselves clean, tidy, and in nice clothes is a powerful motivator for most people.
Now it's important to apply oneself to one's responsibilities. It starts to make sense to limit family size, since new babies disrupt schedules and paychecks aren't fattened just because there's a new mouth to feed. And so on.
If the goddamned politicians took the energy they exert pointing fingers at each other and applied it to reducing under- and unemployment, you'd see a sharp decrease in undesirable behavior.
It's not as if there isn't enough work to be done. For example, many problems could be solved by repairing and maintaining US roads, bridges, dams, airports, etc. That's what adults would do. But too many elected representatives suffer from arrested development, and all we get from them is tantrums, blame-shifting, and name-calling. When will the grown-ups come back and run this country again?
14
I especially like your description of too many politicians suffering from "arrested development"! That's hitting th nail on the head!
The point of all this is lost on me. Sounds like a lot of statistics marshaled to say, "nyah! nyah! your communities are crumbling, too!" So helpful to productive discourse on solutions to the massive collapse of the United States.
interesting link to country music....... "okie" and one or two flag wavers from the viet nam era are an anomaly. merle haggard is a true and articulate poet of blue collar life and he stands in stark contract to the country music of today. country music of today glorifies promiscuity, alcohol abuse, war and the virtues of just plain ignorance...... all for the benefit of large media corporations.
we'll know we've hit rock bottom when they put out a song glorifying meth use.
we'll know we've hit rock bottom when they put out a song glorifying meth use.
6
This proves that the Tea Party finds it very easy to point fingers about morality while ignoring whats going on in their own back yard. It also proves that churching up the people really is futile when no one listens and this finding show lots of young people are not listening. I never pushed my kids on religion, we let them make their own conclusions about it and to the one ( we have three ) they did not like the absolutism and proselytizing. They also make a point of some religions seem to want a partial or complete surrender of their thought process and don’t get any of them started on the revisionist history and science. It’s too bad that much of this is just a throwback to seventeenth century thinking trying to make sense in a twenty-first century environment. Black Baltimore and white Muskogee, two cities with the same problem but only one makes the news because it’s citizens are victims of those who are sworn to protect them. Is Fox News sending anyone to Muskogee to investigate any of this? Probably not, the Tea Party would object.
6
I think that religious conservatives are increasingly desperate. They see the trends. Their response is to enlist government to impose a particular moral standard. At the same time, they oppose government because they see as an outsider pushing its views onto them. The Federal government is the other.
While they condemn liberal anti poverty programs, their economist program is to "unleash" capitalism and eliminate dependence. Capitalism in an age of globalization and technological innovation is very disruptive, undermining the very social cohesion they desire. But this is the economics they support. As a result they look to government to restrict "undesirable" behaviors. But of course they don't like government. This cluster of antithetical beliefs will collapse and the tea party which includes a religious conservative aspect plus a popularity economist aspect is an example of these tensions being worked out.
While they condemn liberal anti poverty programs, their economist program is to "unleash" capitalism and eliminate dependence. Capitalism in an age of globalization and technological innovation is very disruptive, undermining the very social cohesion they desire. But this is the economics they support. As a result they look to government to restrict "undesirable" behaviors. But of course they don't like government. This cluster of antithetical beliefs will collapse and the tea party which includes a religious conservative aspect plus a popularity economist aspect is an example of these tensions being worked out.
2
Go read Christopher Lasch.
2
I wonder how many of the white ladies getting pregnant in these Red Southern states are doing so with Black men? That would be an interesting statistic to see & understand. And Muskogee is just one of many, many small towns in these United States that have this problem. Put them all together and they will make the black sections of Baltimore and other major inner city areas pale in comparison to the total numbers! Let's get real here, this country is in the toilet and politicians are not going to save it at all.
I love Ole’ Merle Haggard, and I love America. It makes me sad sometimes to think of what has happened to our country due to all the pre-planned wars for profit, like the “War on Drugs.” Merle had it right in his lyrics from another song he took to the top of the charts long before it’s time: “Are the good times really over for good.” He sings: “Are we rolling downhill like a snowball headed for hell… With no kinda chance for the flag or the liberty bell… Wish a ford and a Chevy would still last ten years like they should… Is the best of the free life behind us now, are the good times really over for good?” Like a great American poet, through his lyrics and music, he gave us a glimpse of the future of our country long before it became a reality.
The lesson I draw is that rigid adherence to religious and political ideologies does not outweigh attitudinal shift that is global in nature. A more productive approach is to channel such a sea change to socially and individually constructive outlets. That is really hard, but at least recognizing the challenge is the first step.
People who live in glass houses . . .
Anyone with eyes to see can perceive the relationship between meth (and meth culture) and lack of opportunity (i.e., poverty). Yes, the occasional child of wealth will fall into the meth culture (though usually such victims will also have big underlying psychological problems), but meth is a poor person's drug. Black Baltimore, white Muskogee, no diff. No future, no jobs, no opportunity. Once the (growing) population of impoverished Americans recognize who is responsible for keeping them in their condition, the red/blue silliness will disappear, the 1% will (to the extent they haven't already) move into gated, guarded enclaves (or private islands) and the lines will be drawn more clearly.
2
Mr. Edsall, you are making extensive reference to the content of one website, which is replete with the publications of one researcher, who has made an academic career of one point of view using one statistical approach. This lack of intellectual breadth in exchange for sociological alignment degrades the quality of your argument to such a degree that it exposes climate change denial as positively reasonable in comparison.
Turning now from critiquing the quality of the message to examining its content: Your argument relies upon comparison of percentages, and ignores the stronger signal of diversity in the population. There are real and really complex people behind those elementary statistics, yet you deny them their voice. In the only instance where you cite actual numbers (unmarried, cohabiting couples) it is revealed that the signature of the second demographic "transition" is writ by 7.9 million couples - call that 15.8 million individuals, thank you - which is less than 5% of the nation's population.
Your argument depends on ignoring 95% of the sample. Wow.
Turning now from critiquing the quality of the message to examining its content: Your argument relies upon comparison of percentages, and ignores the stronger signal of diversity in the population. There are real and really complex people behind those elementary statistics, yet you deny them their voice. In the only instance where you cite actual numbers (unmarried, cohabiting couples) it is revealed that the signature of the second demographic "transition" is writ by 7.9 million couples - call that 15.8 million individuals, thank you - which is less than 5% of the nation's population.
Your argument depends on ignoring 95% of the sample. Wow.
1
And what are the root causes? How about one of them being 30 years of de-industrialization and millions of jobs moved offshore combined with wage pressures from a wave of illegals?
This country is in serious trouble with not a leader in sight. I am afraid that it is going to take a major crisis, e.g. limited war with China, financial collapse, etc. for another Lincoln to appear and get us out of this mess.
This country is in serious trouble with not a leader in sight. I am afraid that it is going to take a major crisis, e.g. limited war with China, financial collapse, etc. for another Lincoln to appear and get us out of this mess.
"If conservatives place responsibility on liberal Democrats, feminism and the abandonment of traditional family values for Baltimore’s decay, what role did the 249 churches in and around Muskogee play in that city’s troubles?"
Church is the drug of Republicans, far removed from the meaning of Christianity. Sure, they may host a free meal for the homeless during the holiday season, or volunteer at a local charity, but it's for their own feeling of doing good, another jewel in their crown in heaven, so to speak, not to actually help people. And for every bit of true good they may do, they ruin it by advocating zombie economics, theocratic social policies, and general intolerance for people with differing views.
Church is the drug of Republicans, far removed from the meaning of Christianity. Sure, they may host a free meal for the homeless during the holiday season, or volunteer at a local charity, but it's for their own feeling of doing good, another jewel in their crown in heaven, so to speak, not to actually help people. And for every bit of true good they may do, they ruin it by advocating zombie economics, theocratic social policies, and general intolerance for people with differing views.
5
Don't you know it's the atheistic Democratic minorities in Muskogee that are causing the problem? That's why Republicans are busy writing legislation making it a requirement that everybody belong to the Southern Baptist Church, or at least live by its stated values, no abortion, no gay marriage, no welfare assistance, etc..
It is interesting to me that this is the Hometown of Senator Tom Coburn for 20 years. There has been little benefit from his tenure, It was always a blue-collar town, but now the factories have closed mostly, people are at loose ends, and there is hatred of police when your only way to live seems to be by selling drugs.
The roots of poverty, whether it be black or white, is having children you cannot afford to emotionally and financially support. It is really that simple, no other explanation necessary, red or blue.
6
The roots of poverty are being born into poverty. There are plenty of poor people who do not have children.
Really and what if you are poor and childless. What if you become poor as a result of circumstances that you find yourself in such as a medical bankruptcy. Your position is baseless.
The inability of human beings to exercise self-restraint accounts for almost all the imminent serious dangers to life on this planet. The right-wing's insistence upon "individual responsibility" is crippled by its failure to recognize the extent to which every individual's "self-interest" is inextricably intertwined with the "self-interest" of every other living thing. Whether the subject is Global Climate Change, Nuclear Warfare, rampant terrorism, human overpopulation, collapse of the family, Sex, Drugs, or Poverty, the sooner we all recognize that "we are all in this together, whether we like it or not," the sooner we may begin to reason together to find solutions to these problems.
6
I expect some thoughtful consideration from some of those on the left because of the implications that positions taken by the left have contributed to this situation, but as for the right there will be a wall of denial. This is the rights default position, denial. The highest rates of teen pregnancy in Red States highlights the denial that Abstinence Only doesn't work, that poverty and lack of a decent education leads to crime and drug abuse, not the colour of your shin.
4
You can substitute almost any small town in Ohio, or for that matter most small towns in the industrial midwest for Muskogee - the same poverty, despair and alienation. These communities have all been victimized by a crushing combination of outsourcing, technological change, de-unionization, and so-called free trade agreements. At the same time, the benefits of our society - wealth, privilege, educational opportunity, and status - all flow in the opposite direction. The real problem, as many comments have observed, is the absence of jobs that provide real opportunity, not only with respect to income but for self-respect. The poor and the working class simply have no power to influence the elites' decisions, and they know it. Bernie Sanders at least speaks the truth about the extraordinary concentration of wealth and power in this country. It's time for honest political discourse in this country about the state of our nation and the magnitude of our problems if we are going to ever start assembling solutions that actually work.
26
In doing stories like this, there is an inherent tendency to glorify the past. The fact is 18th and 19th century working class life for men and women was far more chaotic and then the myths and memes we tell ourselves. There is a reason literature like Theodore Dreiser's "Sister Carrie" and "An American Tragedy" ring so true or that one Wisconsin town and city in the 1890s could provide the material for "Wisconsin Death Trip." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_Death_Trip
The fact is the economic structures and Government social programs of the 1930s and 50s (the New Deal, Labor Unions, and managed captialism), with the support of mainline churches created the circumstances of that allowed for the flourishing of "two parent families" and the transition from a nation that FDR still characterized in 1936 as "one-third of a nation ill-housed, ill-clad, ill-nourished." to one that where that % had fallen to less than 1/6th by 1970, when the Great Reaction set in. The fact is that the policies Conservatives have attacked have been stopped or arrested or countered by laissez-faire economics for the last 45 years. For Kochs and the Hedge Fund titans, the 1/3rd in misery is a feature of their world view, not a bug. What Muskogee and Baltimore share in common is the gradual disappearance of blue collar work that provided a means to make a middle class living for working class people.
The fact is the economic structures and Government social programs of the 1930s and 50s (the New Deal, Labor Unions, and managed captialism), with the support of mainline churches created the circumstances of that allowed for the flourishing of "two parent families" and the transition from a nation that FDR still characterized in 1936 as "one-third of a nation ill-housed, ill-clad, ill-nourished." to one that where that % had fallen to less than 1/6th by 1970, when the Great Reaction set in. The fact is that the policies Conservatives have attacked have been stopped or arrested or countered by laissez-faire economics for the last 45 years. For Kochs and the Hedge Fund titans, the 1/3rd in misery is a feature of their world view, not a bug. What Muskogee and Baltimore share in common is the gradual disappearance of blue collar work that provided a means to make a middle class living for working class people.
21
Thank you, Sherpatrick, you hit the nail on the head. One of the problems we face today is that people only know recent history, they see the economic boom period of roughly 1946-1970, and tend to mythologize anything before that. Right wing talk radio is full of idiots who will tell you the Great Depression wasn't that bad, that people came together and that 'people helped themselves', when the reality was that the US was in dire straits, and while the New Deal didn't end the depression, it allowed the country to survive.
Likewise, especially the religious right and political conservatives, there is profound ignorance of what the 19th century was like, what it was like to be working class. They pretend like being working class in the 19th century was middle class, that people lived well, when the reality was that pre the unions, pre collective bargaining, life as a worker was poverty stricken, and often quite short. Republicans deny we ever had child labor, yet we did, and conservatives, both religious and political, argued that abolishing it was wrong.
The same people who see 1950's America as a golden age ignore the fact that the things they denounce, unions and fair tax policy, led to that golden age, that the GI Bill and VA mortgages and the interstate highway system and the government in general had a lot to do with it.
Likewise, especially the religious right and political conservatives, there is profound ignorance of what the 19th century was like, what it was like to be working class. They pretend like being working class in the 19th century was middle class, that people lived well, when the reality was that pre the unions, pre collective bargaining, life as a worker was poverty stricken, and often quite short. Republicans deny we ever had child labor, yet we did, and conservatives, both religious and political, argued that abolishing it was wrong.
The same people who see 1950's America as a golden age ignore the fact that the things they denounce, unions and fair tax policy, led to that golden age, that the GI Bill and VA mortgages and the interstate highway system and the government in general had a lot to do with it.
1
Sociologists have told us for decades that the basis of strong family life is economic, not moral. The revelations in this, another fine column by Mr. Edsall, were entirely predictable, and should come as no surprise.
Tte concept of "demographic transition" among demographers is the analog of "secular change" in the job market among economists. It's easy to talk breezily about these as permanent trends, just a folks did in the 1930's. In fact, no one knows, and there is no way of knowing.
Tte concept of "demographic transition" among demographers is the analog of "secular change" in the job market among economists. It's easy to talk breezily about these as permanent trends, just a folks did in the 1930's. In fact, no one knows, and there is no way of knowing.
6
Sociologists have also recommended all of the costly attempts to remedy poverty that have failed in Baltimore. Perhaps they were wrong.
1
Paul Krugman has basically covered this topic in his blog in a way which makes the most sense. If the higher rate of drug abuse, unwed mothers, etc, in the black population is not caused by weak moral values and immorality, but to joblessness and poverty, you would expect the same trends to show up among whites when they also suffer from rising joblessness and poverty. This is exactly what is happening in red America. The underlying poverty and hoplessness is manifesting itself the same way. People with no money and no prospects are not going to consider marriage as a viable option, and they are going to be more likely to turn to drugs and alcohol. Moral lectures and religion is not the answer in either case.
42
I've read a lot of the suggestions here on marriage, abortion, and rioting, posted by readers here, but I think that the main idea is that conservatives are unfairly biased when they say all of our societal problems lie with black people in urban areas. This piece proves that they don't. But, of course, conservative media will never mention that. What's the Matter with Kansas?
10
The answer is jobs, jobs and more jobs. The mass exporting of jobs overseas through free trade have favored and created multi-billionaires in our country. We need to revisit the Keynesian idea that it would be stimulative to tax or borrow money to pay people to dig ditches and fill them up again. Nothing is created, no one is better off for the labor, but there are incomes where there was unemployment and so multipliers kick in and growth happens. I would favor taxing the multi-billionaires to achieve this.
176
What ditches? There is plenty to do, plenty of caregiving needed, plenty of infrastructure built - only there should be a decent level of pay for these jobs. Let's borrow for that. But - is this sustainable?
Answer is education, education, and more education. Not just "give me a job". And that lies more in individual motivation, delayed gratification, and work/study ethic.
Blue collar jobs, for high-school educations are gone. People MUST adjust / adapt.
Blue collar jobs, for high-school educations are gone. People MUST adjust / adapt.
Better yet, instead of paying people to dig holes and filling them up again, pay people to do real useful work like repairing the infrastructure. You go to Europe and you see cities that are spick & span, clean streets, excellent public transportation, excellent health and education services for everybody. All of these services require jobs that are local and just can't be exported - manual jobs, skilled and semi-skilled jobs. This is such a no-brainer.
Mr. Edsall:
We can certainly use more reporting of the kind displayed here. I don't expect that there will be any acknowledgement of this problem from the right.Which means that any reasonable discussion of this problem will not occur.It would appear that a wholesale rejection of the family values of the right has led to this sad state of affairs. But why?
The obvious starting point would be the economy. Yet, that avenue of discussion is simply off the table for the conservatives in this country.
How we expect the younger generations to succeed without decent paying jobs shouldn't be a mystery to anyone.
The other glaring reason is the absolute disolution of the public education system. This is a national disgrace of massive proportions. But, we continue to allow our schools to disintegrate. Republican responses to this problem have consisted of demonizing unions and seeking profit through privatization.
There is no evidence that Republican lawmakers on any level have any knowledge of the problems in their own backyards. The red states have lived off of federal funding provided by the rest of the country. I fail to see how they can vote for people who want to shrink government.
Religion seems to be solution for them and it is not changing any of this anytime soon. Rather, it diseminates a uniquely American brand of ignorance
that adds to the problem. Only the truth will set us free. Thank you for providing it here.
We can certainly use more reporting of the kind displayed here. I don't expect that there will be any acknowledgement of this problem from the right.Which means that any reasonable discussion of this problem will not occur.It would appear that a wholesale rejection of the family values of the right has led to this sad state of affairs. But why?
The obvious starting point would be the economy. Yet, that avenue of discussion is simply off the table for the conservatives in this country.
How we expect the younger generations to succeed without decent paying jobs shouldn't be a mystery to anyone.
The other glaring reason is the absolute disolution of the public education system. This is a national disgrace of massive proportions. But, we continue to allow our schools to disintegrate. Republican responses to this problem have consisted of demonizing unions and seeking profit through privatization.
There is no evidence that Republican lawmakers on any level have any knowledge of the problems in their own backyards. The red states have lived off of federal funding provided by the rest of the country. I fail to see how they can vote for people who want to shrink government.
Religion seems to be solution for them and it is not changing any of this anytime soon. Rather, it diseminates a uniquely American brand of ignorance
that adds to the problem. Only the truth will set us free. Thank you for providing it here.
22
It has seemed to me that the republicans are still fighting the battles of 1975, as if the world and whatever influences it has not changed since then. In particular, they are apparently ignorant of the changes their own political programs have wrought, but still keep fighting old, long dead enemies...all the while not responding to current problems.
I disagree with Bemused that there is no evidence that Republican lawmakers have knowledge of the problems in their backyards. They're not stupid; they know perfectly well. But poor people are not their constituencies. The Koch brothers, Sheldon Adelson, Wall Street, etc., are their constituencies, and they (and, frankly, too many Democrats as well) serve that constituency just fine.
The author's indignation is misdirected -"The right willfully ignores the benefits, and the left willfully ignores the costs, of what is, for better or worse, a world of radically diminished moral constraint." The radically diminished moral restraint is to be found on Wall Street and in Washington DC and in major financial/political capitals around the globe - here the lords of finance and industry and their paid public servants have lost all constraint on their society destroying greed! Changing cohabitation patterns and the dissolution of families is the symptom not the cause of this terminal disease.
30
"...Conservative religions have proved powerless to halt unwed motherhood, cohabitation and other trends that defy traditional morality." Why? Shall we blame the 1960s again? Let's don't' take the easy way out here.
Southern Baptist and other conservative churches decree that there is One Right Way to do sex. You must marry first. Period. Abstinence is the only alternative. And if you're very young and having sex--you must marry right now. In my community, i see very young people pressured to marry when they have no way of supporting a family.
In the good old days (not that long ago), you could drop out of school and go to the factory. So if you married and had kids at 16, you got back in the good graces of Southern Baptists quickly by getting that job. Those days are gone.
Working class white people know that this formula doesn't work. Now working class white women view unemployed men as another mouth to feed. Their standards for marriage have not changed much since 1960. And yet, they're not going to forgo sex and children forever. (Because, who looks after you when you're old?)
And there is huge hypocrisy in rural communities over drugs. They bash urban folks (those dark people), but there's nothing to do for fun in Nutbush except get high.
Southern Baptists and other conservative faiths promote their adherence to the "old time religion" but they have failed to deal with the reality that we live: the inability of teenagers and other unskilled to find "adult" work.
Southern Baptist and other conservative churches decree that there is One Right Way to do sex. You must marry first. Period. Abstinence is the only alternative. And if you're very young and having sex--you must marry right now. In my community, i see very young people pressured to marry when they have no way of supporting a family.
In the good old days (not that long ago), you could drop out of school and go to the factory. So if you married and had kids at 16, you got back in the good graces of Southern Baptists quickly by getting that job. Those days are gone.
Working class white people know that this formula doesn't work. Now working class white women view unemployed men as another mouth to feed. Their standards for marriage have not changed much since 1960. And yet, they're not going to forgo sex and children forever. (Because, who looks after you when you're old?)
And there is huge hypocrisy in rural communities over drugs. They bash urban folks (those dark people), but there's nothing to do for fun in Nutbush except get high.
Southern Baptists and other conservative faiths promote their adherence to the "old time religion" but they have failed to deal with the reality that we live: the inability of teenagers and other unskilled to find "adult" work.
31
The paradox is that these southern, white communities suffering disproportional increases in poverty, joblessness, economic immobility, drug use, and associated ills as a function of conditions both in and out of their control remain inured to vote against their self interest. Paul Ryan's bootstrapping panacea is no less harmful in Muskogee than it is in any entrenched black community. So called big government initiatives like Obama's infrastructure proposals would not only economically boost these communities abandoned by globalization and monopoly but could well infuse a generation with hope thereby promoting good decisions and behavior in a way churches never will. No doubt however, these good ol' boys in Muskogee are waving the Stars and Bars in support of the Republican Senate which today passed a "budget" that increases defense spending while cutting domestic programs.
39
White poverty tends to fall below the news media radar. Social explosions such as in Ferguson and Baltimore by blacks tend to harden preconceived notions of white conservative commentators. So one situation though bad is never held up to media exposure. Ridicules ideas like ones religious freedom in impinged by not allowing one to discriminate against gay marriage or that free spending of money in political campaigns is a form of free speech are standard ideas of the conservative agenda. Providing free needles to poor white junkies to prevent aids is a different matter. The 2014 election was impacted by the Democrats fear of mentioning Ferguson because it would motivate whites against them. The crystal meth scourge of poor whites has led to social breakdown in such places as Muskogee but it doesn't fit into the narrative that the Wall Street Journal wants to promote.
9
And these red states are particularly fond of abstinence-only sex ed programs, which do not exactly have a stellar record. From the San Antonia Express News:
"Officials with the Crane Independent School District are meeting to discuss their sex education program after nearly two dozen cases of Chlamydia were reported among the high school student body...which totals about 300 students."
Instead of demonizing "urban" America (and, let's be blunt, we know what that is code for), these conservatives may want to take a closer look at their own backyard.
"Officials with the Crane Independent School District are meeting to discuss their sex education program after nearly two dozen cases of Chlamydia were reported among the high school student body...which totals about 300 students."
Instead of demonizing "urban" America (and, let's be blunt, we know what that is code for), these conservatives may want to take a closer look at their own backyard.
27
Afghanistan has "high moral values" and is a mess, so I am not so sure that direct conservative values are the answer. Sweden on the other hand, has what one might call "Liberal" values and avoids much of these problems. Perhaps a better solution might be to look at state and countries which have been more successful rather then focusing only on the problems.
13
Precisely. Scandinavia = progressive taxation + a high level of government services for all (free health, education, housing, child support services, etc.). Exploitive rich people do not dominate Scandinavian legislatures. It's not like that in Afghanistan, or in the USA.
Any chance that the real problem is being missed by both conservatives and progressives? Our society is increasingly a plutocracy run by the major corporations to whom most if not all politicians do obeisance. Conservatives and progressives fight over how to divide up the economic pie when that pie is nothing more than an industrially processed, artificially flavored cow patty. For example, why fight over a health-care system that has nothing to do with health and everything to do with profit? Why argue public vs. private sector when the door between the two revolves at a dizzying rate? The poor are struggling just to survive, mentally and emotionally as well as physically. The poliitical establishment isn't helping. Black or white? It doesn't matter.
13
The key issue, in black inner-city areas and in white rural and small-city areas, is jobs, or the lack of them. The exodus of heavy industry from northern cities after the '60s stranded the blacks who had come north in the Great Migration to work in those industries. Nothing has replaced those jobs. This wrenching economic transformation simply ripped apart black families and undermined the standards of black communities that once had an economic basis, but has it no longer.
Now, we see the same flight of jobs and economic hope from smaller, largely white, industrial cities, small farming and mining towns and rural areas, due to outsourcing, industrial consolidation and automation. The impact on the white populations that relied on this economy is, not surprisingly, the same as on the black inner city -- joblessness, high dropout rates, family disintegration, single-parent households, down-home religions and drugs.
The inner city blacks of Chicago and Baltimore would seem to be a whole different civilization from the whites of Muskogee. In fact, they are in the very same boat, and it's sinking in the same economic sea.
Now, we see the same flight of jobs and economic hope from smaller, largely white, industrial cities, small farming and mining towns and rural areas, due to outsourcing, industrial consolidation and automation. The impact on the white populations that relied on this economy is, not surprisingly, the same as on the black inner city -- joblessness, high dropout rates, family disintegration, single-parent households, down-home religions and drugs.
The inner city blacks of Chicago and Baltimore would seem to be a whole different civilization from the whites of Muskogee. In fact, they are in the very same boat, and it's sinking in the same economic sea.
25
A big factor in this trend is the Internet acting as a Church and moral guide to many young kids--and not just poor kids. Kids have immediate access to sub-cultures and street violence right there on their phones. Mix this with both parents working, or divorced parents working, or a single parent working, and kids have enormous free-time to create their own culture and value systems. Much of the underbelly of the net is based in the objectification of women, random violence, seemingly "cool" drug culture, weird "fail' videos, drinking and video games. It takes a very creative top-down parental force to combat that onslaught--most parents don't have the time or the energy or the money.
Twenty-year-olds on the cusp of raising families now have navigated this culture--and many have come out valuing individual freedoms rather than the confines of married family life. It's hard enough to make ends meet looking out for oneself, let alone a family.
So who's to blame? Number one: low wages, low benefits, long work hours, no union support--all of which stresses-out parents, causes financial burden, leads to separation. And deregulation of worker rights and pay is primarily supported by the right. If you want to empower parents and help them have and raise kids--pay them! supply the jobs, an easy mortgage, benefits, retirement, control over birth schedule. The right opposes these measures, and in this way does NOT support family values.
Twenty-year-olds on the cusp of raising families now have navigated this culture--and many have come out valuing individual freedoms rather than the confines of married family life. It's hard enough to make ends meet looking out for oneself, let alone a family.
So who's to blame? Number one: low wages, low benefits, long work hours, no union support--all of which stresses-out parents, causes financial burden, leads to separation. And deregulation of worker rights and pay is primarily supported by the right. If you want to empower parents and help them have and raise kids--pay them! supply the jobs, an easy mortgage, benefits, retirement, control over birth schedule. The right opposes these measures, and in this way does NOT support family values.
22
My father was born in Muskogee, Oklahoma, and while he could have been described as socially conservative, he was open, some, to the idea of change and development in human society (unlike that Merle Haggard song, which he detested, despite his affinity for old style country music.)
Religions draw much of their power from being ancient, something from the mystical past. There are ancient truths and ancient lies and, to the faithful and the leaders of religions, it doesn't really matter which is which. It is all part the admixture which adds up to obedience, attendance at rituals and contributions.
Yet, the most conservatived religions in America have failed to stem the tide of divorce, cohabitation and single parenthood. The reasons most likely lie in economic forces, not a moral breakdown or any sort of mental failure on the part of adherents. Men and women, economically free and with the capacity to have sexual relationship without the imposition of pregnancy, can see that marriage is fragile and perhaps unnecessary. Economics and the desire for individual fulfillment trumps the dutiful trudge through life that parenthood and family obligations require.
People these days also expect economic progress to come from a marriage. If they can't get it and other aspects are unsatisfactory, they leave. Knowing this, marriage becomes less useful, more of a test of endurance. If Republicans come up with a real solution, then they should speak up. So far, they haven't.
Doug Terry
Religions draw much of their power from being ancient, something from the mystical past. There are ancient truths and ancient lies and, to the faithful and the leaders of religions, it doesn't really matter which is which. It is all part the admixture which adds up to obedience, attendance at rituals and contributions.
Yet, the most conservatived religions in America have failed to stem the tide of divorce, cohabitation and single parenthood. The reasons most likely lie in economic forces, not a moral breakdown or any sort of mental failure on the part of adherents. Men and women, economically free and with the capacity to have sexual relationship without the imposition of pregnancy, can see that marriage is fragile and perhaps unnecessary. Economics and the desire for individual fulfillment trumps the dutiful trudge through life that parenthood and family obligations require.
People these days also expect economic progress to come from a marriage. If they can't get it and other aspects are unsatisfactory, they leave. Knowing this, marriage becomes less useful, more of a test of endurance. If Republicans come up with a real solution, then they should speak up. So far, they haven't.
Doug Terry
120
An excellent, insightful post. Thank you.
7
Is it the "conservative religions" that have failed to stem the tide of social decay or is it the fact that people have fallen away from practicing the tenets of these religions? You, just like Mr. Edsall, have failed to show a true cause and effect between conservative religious vlaues and the rise in social ills. Mr. Edsall's article doesn't support his premise at all. In fact, if he had done a little more research I can almost guarantee you that he would have discovered the rise in the social ills in Muskogee have closely trecked the decrease in the number of its citizens who actively participate in churches in the area.
No one on the right ever argued that antisocial and self-destructive behavior was peculiar to blacks--that it was a function of the melanin in one's skin.
The fact, though, is that these changes appeared first, and virulently, in blacks. Those who sounded an alarm, like Daniel Moynihan in 1969, were derided as blaming the victim or, even worse, racism.
The other fact is that unwed pregnancy, and copulation unfettered by moral restraint, is simply: easier. It requires no discipline, no delay of gratification. It would be very surprising if youth who have not been raised in 2 parent families, with little enforced discipline, did not behave in this way. Even in the reddest of states.
We must face it: years of challenge to authority and derision for traditional moral concepts about personal behavior have led us to this. And it's only going to get worse. These concepts require constant reinforcement, not constant snickering
Except for the well off and immigrant groups not here long enough to be infected by hat ails us, culturally. They know when someone peddles a scam.
You won.
The fact, though, is that these changes appeared first, and virulently, in blacks. Those who sounded an alarm, like Daniel Moynihan in 1969, were derided as blaming the victim or, even worse, racism.
The other fact is that unwed pregnancy, and copulation unfettered by moral restraint, is simply: easier. It requires no discipline, no delay of gratification. It would be very surprising if youth who have not been raised in 2 parent families, with little enforced discipline, did not behave in this way. Even in the reddest of states.
We must face it: years of challenge to authority and derision for traditional moral concepts about personal behavior have led us to this. And it's only going to get worse. These concepts require constant reinforcement, not constant snickering
Except for the well off and immigrant groups not here long enough to be infected by hat ails us, culturally. They know when someone peddles a scam.
You won.
1
The ACA and the Sandra Fluke/Rush Limbaugh debacle was an eye opening experience for me. I realized at that moment that the so called conservative red states weren't just against abortion but also against family planning, sex education and access to women's health. I was completely surprised and struck dumb by the willingness to punish and shame girls while at the same time blocking access to care and knowledge.
We need to move the conversation to responsible family planning. To supporting IUDs for every woman. To encourage women to begin birth control with puberty and to help them have a future of their choice by enabling them to complete their education and obtain job skills. Family planning and personal responsibility should be front an center in the conversation.
The fastest ticket to poverty is to begin a family when you are undereducated, under skilled and unemployed.
We need to move the conversation to responsible family planning. To supporting IUDs for every woman. To encourage women to begin birth control with puberty and to help them have a future of their choice by enabling them to complete their education and obtain job skills. Family planning and personal responsibility should be front an center in the conversation.
The fastest ticket to poverty is to begin a family when you are undereducated, under skilled and unemployed.
44
If you are a religious social conservative, a "traditional" marriage is about marrying young, which is seen as good. The idea is that you should both be virgins--but no blame if the boy has succumbed to a "bad girl." All the blame focuses on those bad girls who don't wait.
It's important to note that religious social conservatives despise higher education. They mistrust it--the kids come home believing in evolution and such. They will associate with liberals--or worse, dark people and foreigners--or worst of all, non-Christians. Or they might not come back to the hometown at all.
So what is a young high school grad supposed to do? The answer religious conservatives like is, get a job and get married. (It'll make a man of you!) But the reality is that the few jobs available won't pay anything close to a decent wage.
So young guys live with mom, work part-time for low wages, and get wasted every night. (The "good, conservative" young women, meanwhile, keep looking in vain for "husband material.") The local economy can't grow with everybody on Walmart wages, so the whole town declines.
It's important to note that religious social conservatives despise higher education. They mistrust it--the kids come home believing in evolution and such. They will associate with liberals--or worse, dark people and foreigners--or worst of all, non-Christians. Or they might not come back to the hometown at all.
So what is a young high school grad supposed to do? The answer religious conservatives like is, get a job and get married. (It'll make a man of you!) But the reality is that the few jobs available won't pay anything close to a decent wage.
So young guys live with mom, work part-time for low wages, and get wasted every night. (The "good, conservative" young women, meanwhile, keep looking in vain for "husband material.") The local economy can't grow with everybody on Walmart wages, so the whole town declines.
1
Not only free IUDs for women but also free *voluntary* vasectomy for men. Why is this cheap, quick and effective measure never mentioned, never offered as a regular health service? It's so unfair that all the burden of contraception is squarely put on women's backs.
Thank you for pointing out that Muskogee has lots of problems and that "a collection of forces...are changing the family, marriage patterns and child rearing worldwide." Marriage isn't valued as much as it used to be. Unwed mothers are not the cause of all of the problems on earth, however, despite the focus on that statistic. What causes abandonment of women when they become mothers? Many women want stable relationships with men. For every single or divorced mother there is a single or divorced and perhaps estranged father out there (unless he has died or she used IVF, for the nit pickers). And, in the African American community, there are very high incarceration and murder rates for young black men. This is correlational so cannot be scientifically cited as either a cause or effect of fathers being absent, or if it is totally unrelated. Poor men, of any race, who parent their children, often struggle to adequately support them. How many of our incarcerated and/or chronically unemployed men are fathers? How many are ever able to know their kids or pay child support? Why do some fathers duck their responsibilities and why do we mainly focus on the mothers? Are some fathers so bad that the mothers don't want them in the children's lives? The idea that most women prefer being alone to raise kids seems to be assumed, a priori, (mostly by conservatives) when I doubt that is true. Neither the left nor the right has the answers, only theories.
6
The second demographic transition "a collection of forces that are inexorably changing the family, marriage patterns and child rearing worldwide" are
too powerful to resist, but one can try one's all to attempt to
mitigate them by smart concerted social policies that come from
both public sphere, i.e. government programs at all levels, and private sphere, i.e. religious and cultural institutions.
The transition has been greatly
amplified by the economic dislocations that have hollowed out
most sources of reasonable income for less educated parts of the population, thereby undercutting any sense that there is such
a thing as a better future to aspire to and plan for. When this
happens, the divergence one sees between middle-upper middle
and lower middle and less behaviors in all personal realms
becomes very pronounced and deeply engrained in
individuals.
Rather than screaming at each other that it's my way
that works and yours can't, a pathology this country,
in particular, has been stuck with for far too long, it would
be much better to adopt the attitude that the underlying
economic structures need some tweaking so that more resources
can go to improve children's lives and encourage
self constructive - not destructive - behaviors.
Unfortunately, this is impossible as long as
the culture war, supported/reinforced by powerful
corporate media interests shows no sign of letting up, given
how useful it is for maintaining political power and profits.
too powerful to resist, but one can try one's all to attempt to
mitigate them by smart concerted social policies that come from
both public sphere, i.e. government programs at all levels, and private sphere, i.e. religious and cultural institutions.
The transition has been greatly
amplified by the economic dislocations that have hollowed out
most sources of reasonable income for less educated parts of the population, thereby undercutting any sense that there is such
a thing as a better future to aspire to and plan for. When this
happens, the divergence one sees between middle-upper middle
and lower middle and less behaviors in all personal realms
becomes very pronounced and deeply engrained in
individuals.
Rather than screaming at each other that it's my way
that works and yours can't, a pathology this country,
in particular, has been stuck with for far too long, it would
be much better to adopt the attitude that the underlying
economic structures need some tweaking so that more resources
can go to improve children's lives and encourage
self constructive - not destructive - behaviors.
Unfortunately, this is impossible as long as
the culture war, supported/reinforced by powerful
corporate media interests shows no sign of letting up, given
how useful it is for maintaining political power and profits.
22
The creation of the oral contraceptive by chemist Carl Djerassi, first marketed in 1960, is one of the most profound events to ever occur in the history of human culture. Future historians may well see history before and after it as two substantially different eras. For the first time ever, sexual activity could be unequivocally separated from reproduction. It should be of no surprise that it will take more than a few generations for this to fully ripple through society, even more so on a global level. One may of course expect conservatives to resist this incoming tide with all their might, but the tide will inevitably continue to come in. The genie cannot be put back in the bottle any more than the genie of the Internet, and all its societal changes can.
Any monumental change will take a couple of generations to absorb, but this is one of the biggest changes imaginable. And speaking of dealing with big changes, the US still hasn't fully come to terms with its legacy of African slavery, a mere 5 generations or so after its violent abolition.
Any monumental change will take a couple of generations to absorb, but this is one of the biggest changes imaginable. And speaking of dealing with big changes, the US still hasn't fully come to terms with its legacy of African slavery, a mere 5 generations or so after its violent abolition.
17
Except you don't see the same problems in many European countries.
Not sure what that means.
Not sure what that means.
In Baltimore, in Muskogee, in every town and city across America - and around the globe - there is one common denominator: the despair of an uncertain future from lack of knowledge about how to make one.
Education is the ONLY essential. Educating a child from Day One is the most important responsibility a parent will have; educating a child from Day One is the most important task a government can undertake. The consequences of not making education a top priority are on display everywhere around the globe, from the rise of radical fundamentalism to poverty and crime in the city to escapism in the Midwest which drug culture encapsulates.
The US spends 5% of its GDP on education; Botswana spends 10%. Guess in which country education levels are rising, not falling?
We must make the 21st Century the Education Era. Teach our children to test their intellectual boundaries, to elevate their sights, and to respect other living beings... and we will have far fewer outbreaks of violence. Within two generations, we could have world peace.
As adults, we need to start with ourselves, though. We have to wean ourselves from our consumerist fantasies, our dominance fantasies, and our bias fantasies, and make the hard decision to start the paradigm shift from a competitive to a cooperative world. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step: make education of all children THE top priority - worldwide - for 2020, spending as great a percentage of GDP on it as necessary. Begin.
Education is the ONLY essential. Educating a child from Day One is the most important responsibility a parent will have; educating a child from Day One is the most important task a government can undertake. The consequences of not making education a top priority are on display everywhere around the globe, from the rise of radical fundamentalism to poverty and crime in the city to escapism in the Midwest which drug culture encapsulates.
The US spends 5% of its GDP on education; Botswana spends 10%. Guess in which country education levels are rising, not falling?
We must make the 21st Century the Education Era. Teach our children to test their intellectual boundaries, to elevate their sights, and to respect other living beings... and we will have far fewer outbreaks of violence. Within two generations, we could have world peace.
As adults, we need to start with ourselves, though. We have to wean ourselves from our consumerist fantasies, our dominance fantasies, and our bias fantasies, and make the hard decision to start the paradigm shift from a competitive to a cooperative world. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step: make education of all children THE top priority - worldwide - for 2020, spending as great a percentage of GDP on it as necessary. Begin.
33
Professor Edsall,
This is a great essay and sheds light on an issue that should be addressed as honestly as possible. I see it as a problem set that it would serve the larger public interest if we gave priority to the set.
Full disclosure, I am the grandfather of beautiful unmarried grandchildren of child bearing age and I hope they marry, have a good life and raise my great grandchildren in a loving home that will let them grow-up & take their place as members of the community.
It is easy and natural to fall in love as a teen ager and to engage in sex. My generation did not have the benefit of birth-control but I think it would be wise for young women to have access to birth control "systems". Essentially, these systems should be "free"..
The big problem is just plain poverty. Our economy is simply net producing enough good paying jobs/careers for household formations. It is a great failing of our society. Un and under employment is a huge failure of our system.. The record shows that we started coming unglued in the 1970s and we have not been able to stop the slide. Our current free enterprise capitalism must adapt or the good life for most of our people will become extinct.
I suggest that we must rethink our pre-k-thru 16 system & make the changes required to give the young people in our society an equal opportunity to succeed.
We can do it. Liberals & Conservatives can survey the success stories of the World and initiate the changes required.
This is a great essay and sheds light on an issue that should be addressed as honestly as possible. I see it as a problem set that it would serve the larger public interest if we gave priority to the set.
Full disclosure, I am the grandfather of beautiful unmarried grandchildren of child bearing age and I hope they marry, have a good life and raise my great grandchildren in a loving home that will let them grow-up & take their place as members of the community.
It is easy and natural to fall in love as a teen ager and to engage in sex. My generation did not have the benefit of birth-control but I think it would be wise for young women to have access to birth control "systems". Essentially, these systems should be "free"..
The big problem is just plain poverty. Our economy is simply net producing enough good paying jobs/careers for household formations. It is a great failing of our society. Un and under employment is a huge failure of our system.. The record shows that we started coming unglued in the 1970s and we have not been able to stop the slide. Our current free enterprise capitalism must adapt or the good life for most of our people will become extinct.
I suggest that we must rethink our pre-k-thru 16 system & make the changes required to give the young people in our society an equal opportunity to succeed.
We can do it. Liberals & Conservatives can survey the success stories of the World and initiate the changes required.
14
Factual information is wonderful, but none of it matter when individuals choose to ignore and deny information that interferes with their belief system. Unfortunately that goes a long way toward explaining the 'geography of white teenage pregnancy and religion.' Objective truth and reason are the enemies of faith. Proclaim them loudly enough and folks like Mike Huckabee start wailing about the 'war on christianity,' and the left's intention to criminalize their beliefs.
17
There is a noticable absence of the impact of the shrinking middle class and the brutual realities of poverty in this article. Fact is marriage is a luxury service that increasingly is only affordable to the wealthy. Lack of married status when raising children is not an indicator of morality, but of income instability. The poor know that without money marriages are not going to work out most of the time. Our country's problems have more to do with income inequality than morality or idealogy, no matter what side of the political divide you are.
21
Please explain how struggling together, married in poverty, is harder and more expensive than a single mother trying to raise a family on her own?
An excellent piece. I realize that percentage comparisons between Baltimore and Muskogee can be misleading. Ten percent of 2 is a whopping .2 whereas ten percent of 1 million is 100,000, a huge difference if you are counting drug addicts, crack babies, or weighing other human consequences. But Edsall's point is a good one, and convincingly laid out.
The Fox News talking heads are spouting their "wisdom" based on easily perceived problems in a city where blackness is unmistakable. But anyone who has gotten off the freeway in the six red states that Edsall writes about, has seen the unmistakable decay of small cities, the litter of rotting mobile homes and falling down shacks, looked into the faces (white faces) of toothless forty year-olds whose command of the language (lack of command of the language) is appalling, knows that whatever political, social, or religious ethic is in command there has failed. Those who have bothered to drive through the cities-within-cities in the Red States know that blackness is just as prevalent there and that the white hierarchies of those cities are failing just as miserably to solve their urban problems as are those in any other state.
Edsall's final comment is a haunting challenge to both the religious and the political establishments. It may be that it is asking too much of the political process to resolve the conflicts in our morality. But politics has some role to play besides just saying, "No." And the religious establishments do too.
The Fox News talking heads are spouting their "wisdom" based on easily perceived problems in a city where blackness is unmistakable. But anyone who has gotten off the freeway in the six red states that Edsall writes about, has seen the unmistakable decay of small cities, the litter of rotting mobile homes and falling down shacks, looked into the faces (white faces) of toothless forty year-olds whose command of the language (lack of command of the language) is appalling, knows that whatever political, social, or religious ethic is in command there has failed. Those who have bothered to drive through the cities-within-cities in the Red States know that blackness is just as prevalent there and that the white hierarchies of those cities are failing just as miserably to solve their urban problems as are those in any other state.
Edsall's final comment is a haunting challenge to both the religious and the political establishments. It may be that it is asking too much of the political process to resolve the conflicts in our morality. But politics has some role to play besides just saying, "No." And the religious establishments do too.
33
Mr. Rapp, I found your intellectual observation to be devoid of emotional empathy nor solution to the plight of the increasing explosion of poverty. Your judgement that the the white faces with toothless mouth's lack of command of the English language was "appalling." I hope you realize that people like Eminem wrote songs that spoke to the heart of the despair of those individuals born into poverty. Rather than dismiss him as nothing more than "poor white trash" as so many luckier people born into a life of comfort are inclined to, it would be suggestive of a greater level of compassion to figure out a way to help rather than condemn them for their lack of initiative or society's dismissal of their mere existence. It might have started with an individual act of getting out of your car & asking them what you personally could do to help them. After all, progress starts with the acts of one person and ripples out like the waves of the everpresent sea.
And Carla, I find your reply devoid of understanding of what my position would be. As one raised in that kind of poverty, currently having relatives living in those kinds of conditions, I'm not ignorant of them, nor unsympathetic to their plight. My purpose was to simply point out, as the article did, the disingenuity of politicians in those states (and in the state I currently live in) in criticizing programs that could help people alleviate some of the misery, provide health care, improve education, raise wages, and create hope. But one has to get off the freeways of our nation with their tree-lined beauty in order to see the needs that exist. I wonder how often the politicians drive those routes. If they do they are drawing far different conclusions form what they see than I do when I drive those routes. I'm sorry I offended you. It is probably due to my inability to say what I actually mean.
Refreshing article, dicing up the numbers to expose the complete hypocrisy of conservatives. There is no doubt that the morals and values are in transition. Much gets lost in translation. The quintessential issue though points out how our society must adapt to the current wave of our social evolution, and not to whine about the "good old days." This requires both private and governmental action. This is the real message that conservatives drive home day in and day out to their listeners, viewers, and readers: Government is Bad, Churches and Charities are good. Acknowledging events in their own back yard is supposed to be a secret. Shush yourself.
18
Wonderful analysis as usual. One thing though, there were riots in Baltimore, there were no riots in Muskogee.
I looked up the violent crime rates you linked to because I thought it was peculiar that you compared percentage changes. The violent crime rates in Baltimore were 14.28 crimes per 1,000 residents. In Muskogee, it was 7.95 violent crimes per 1,000 residents.
While the two different approaches to moral guidance are not producing different results in poverty or births to unwed parents, there is a clear difference in violence.
With higher rates of drug use and poverty, fewer people are turning to violence as a response in Muskogee. How do we explain that?
I looked up the violent crime rates you linked to because I thought it was peculiar that you compared percentage changes. The violent crime rates in Baltimore were 14.28 crimes per 1,000 residents. In Muskogee, it was 7.95 violent crimes per 1,000 residents.
While the two different approaches to moral guidance are not producing different results in poverty or births to unwed parents, there is a clear difference in violence.
With higher rates of drug use and poverty, fewer people are turning to violence as a response in Muskogee. How do we explain that?
41
If whites in Muskogee where shot dead or their treatment by police led to shocking deaths of white people, they would become violent, too, even rioting, looting, and burning down the house. As far as your last point of less violence in the white community, perhaps drugs are just easier to get in smaller communities. The drug wars concentrate more resources in the big cities. So far this war has been a miserable failure. The fact that the African American is far more targeted, and whites are far more likely to get probation than their fellow black neighbors is another set of truths purposely avoided by both the conservative and mainstream media.
10
The population of Muskogee is roughly 39,000.
The population of Baltimore is roughly 622,000.
Population density has a lot to do with the intensity of violent response to despair, don't you think?
The population of Baltimore is roughly 622,000.
Population density has a lot to do with the intensity of violent response to despair, don't you think?
6
I think Mr. Edsall very clearly points out that the poverty, poor family structures, and drug use issues that are arrising are not exclusive to red or blue politically controlled areas.
My point was that the violence is specific to one area and not the other. Don't be so quick to assume that I meant the people of Baltimore are more likely to commit violence because they are African American or democrat. While I see how you would come to that assumption, it was an assumption.
The difference I would attribute it to is partly the one you point out -a group of people (African American males particularly but the impoverished generally) targeted and discriminated against by the authority. It's largely racism.
However, violence is wrong whether it is by a cop or a group of people that are experiencing violence unjustly. Listen to Ghandi or MLK or Jesus for guidance on how to respond when you are oppressed. Responding with violence and destruction only reinforces the perception that the citizens of Baltimore are violent and the cops probably have to deal with more dangerous people. I certainly think so now.
You can try to justify violence by saying they (the cops) did it first, but it's still wrong.
My point was that the violence is specific to one area and not the other. Don't be so quick to assume that I meant the people of Baltimore are more likely to commit violence because they are African American or democrat. While I see how you would come to that assumption, it was an assumption.
The difference I would attribute it to is partly the one you point out -a group of people (African American males particularly but the impoverished generally) targeted and discriminated against by the authority. It's largely racism.
However, violence is wrong whether it is by a cop or a group of people that are experiencing violence unjustly. Listen to Ghandi or MLK or Jesus for guidance on how to respond when you are oppressed. Responding with violence and destruction only reinforces the perception that the citizens of Baltimore are violent and the cops probably have to deal with more dangerous people. I certainly think so now.
You can try to justify violence by saying they (the cops) did it first, but it's still wrong.
The right wing religious machine's answer to the poverty, unemployment and addiction they cause is - no surprise - more religion and more extreme right wing policies. And these voters buy it. These are voters who hate the poor, even though they themselves are poor. They are told that their difficulties are due to secular values. So the answer isn't more compassionate government, but more Jesus. Republicans control these voters, not because they are successful at alleviating their problems, but because Republicans use Jesus as their mascot. "What's the Matter With Kansas" has become "What's the Matter with the Red States".
37
The poverty of low expectations in small towns across America.
The poverty of little education, little hope, and little opportunity.
That's what's the matter with Kansas. And Wisconsin. And every other state where education funding has been cut, education has been privatized, and education is the first area to be slashed in favor of highway maintenance, revenue shortfalls, snow removal, police overtime, stadium building... or any other cost over-run in the budget.
The shame of cutting off children from a future with any meaning or hope in favor of short-term political 'gains.'
The poverty of little education, little hope, and little opportunity.
That's what's the matter with Kansas. And Wisconsin. And every other state where education funding has been cut, education has been privatized, and education is the first area to be slashed in favor of highway maintenance, revenue shortfalls, snow removal, police overtime, stadium building... or any other cost over-run in the budget.
The shame of cutting off children from a future with any meaning or hope in favor of short-term political 'gains.'
8
@RoughAcres
Don't forget privatization of the jails and prisons in these states as well. Less education drives up crime rates for politicians to get contributions to convert public to private, in any and all things.
Don't forget privatization of the jails and prisons in these states as well. Less education drives up crime rates for politicians to get contributions to convert public to private, in any and all things.
Irresponsibility has no color – intellectually, sexually, chemically, or morally. Whether urban or rural the social rif never faces the societal wrath because these types rarely believe in anything existential; certainly do not practice constructs like religion; and often regretfully do not even believe in themselves.
Forged out of the fact factory- this piece argued disingenuously and juxtaposed inappropriately - suggests that black is white and red is blue, yet says nothing really; except - because anything goes and everything is acceptable, everywhere- today there are no points of morality on a graying social compass.
The myopic old goat needs to be put out to pasture to consume a bit more weed or take a deductive shot at this using a different religion by county in Maryland compared to Uncertian, Texas and Needmore, Florida.
Forged out of the fact factory- this piece argued disingenuously and juxtaposed inappropriately - suggests that black is white and red is blue, yet says nothing really; except - because anything goes and everything is acceptable, everywhere- today there are no points of morality on a graying social compass.
The myopic old goat needs to be put out to pasture to consume a bit more weed or take a deductive shot at this using a different religion by county in Maryland compared to Uncertian, Texas and Needmore, Florida.
An economy that cannot provide decent jobs for the majority of working people means that their is no stable basis for marriage and family life as we have known it and continue to imagine it. Phenomena that were formerly relegated to the class extremes of poverty and a drug addled under-class on the one hand and a tabloid uber-class of wealth and celebrity on the other, have gone mainstream as the middle-class has lost it's prospects and been replaced by the marginally working poor.
19
All this is reasonable and easy to understand. The reds are seeing that the earth does not open up and swallow same-sex couples, that adulterers and unwed parents are not struck by lightning right in the middle of the act.
What I do not understand is why those who find any liberalization of personal sexual mores so reprehensible are so accepting of humongous-scale theft and greed. In fact they are so accepting of it that it almost seems that they regard thievery and greed as virtues.
What I do not understand is why those who find any liberalization of personal sexual mores so reprehensible are so accepting of humongous-scale theft and greed. In fact they are so accepting of it that it almost seems that they regard thievery and greed as virtues.
29
... have you watched any of the popular 'reality' shows?
Thievery, greed, sloth, vanity, gluttony, envy.... they're all on display, and they're all equally celebrated. But they're great vehicles for selling you things you don't need and making you feel OK about it.
#ParadigmShiftNeeded
Thievery, greed, sloth, vanity, gluttony, envy.... they're all on display, and they're all equally celebrated. But they're great vehicles for selling you things you don't need and making you feel OK about it.
#ParadigmShiftNeeded
1
Ohter commenters have noted that the common note between Baltimore and Muskogee is poverty. That is true, but only to the extent that the *response* to that poverty is not taken into account. In the Republican narrative, Baltimore (read urban African-American) poverty is pathologized and demonized as moral failure, while Muskogee poverty is used to prove to Muskogee (and other similar) poor people that they have been victimized by a cabal of variously [nonwhite | educated elite | politically liberal | unlawful immigrants | et cetera].
This narrative is destructive if for no other reason than it divides the country on entirely artificial lines which benefit no one but the top of the economic pyramid. An ill-educated African-American living in Baltimore has far more in common in terms of needs and aspirations with an ill-educated white person from Muskogee than either has with the richest Americans who drive policy, but Fox and much of the right-wing noise machine seems bent on denying the truth of that statement.
For the first time since the second world war, the US exists in a world where it faces real competition....and we need to pull together and embrace the idea that we need every mind and every body working at their full ability to meet that competition. Educate locally, employ locally, put money into infrastructure, and accept that there is a commonweal, a common good, that is just as important as profit in terms of the long-term health of the society.
This narrative is destructive if for no other reason than it divides the country on entirely artificial lines which benefit no one but the top of the economic pyramid. An ill-educated African-American living in Baltimore has far more in common in terms of needs and aspirations with an ill-educated white person from Muskogee than either has with the richest Americans who drive policy, but Fox and much of the right-wing noise machine seems bent on denying the truth of that statement.
For the first time since the second world war, the US exists in a world where it faces real competition....and we need to pull together and embrace the idea that we need every mind and every body working at their full ability to meet that competition. Educate locally, employ locally, put money into infrastructure, and accept that there is a commonweal, a common good, that is just as important as profit in terms of the long-term health of the society.
76
no middle class jobs, no middle class values / Know middle class jobs, Know middle class values.
Remind me again, which party wanted to turn the US into a 'service economy'? Which party rigidly defends jobs working in coal mines, as if that's glamorous labor? Which party justifies and defends a majority of the wealth being controlled by .01% of the population?
Hopefully we will live to see the day when a black presidential candidate vilifies the white welfare queen mooching off the government teat.
Remind me again, which party wanted to turn the US into a 'service economy'? Which party rigidly defends jobs working in coal mines, as if that's glamorous labor? Which party justifies and defends a majority of the wealth being controlled by .01% of the population?
Hopefully we will live to see the day when a black presidential candidate vilifies the white welfare queen mooching off the government teat.
11
The numbers show there is not a Red America and a Blue America, but one America. The struggles are real and shared across this great nation. We have an incredibly prosperous elite - for whom the riches of this country are being concentrated at rates not seen for almost a century. And we have an incredibly challenged poor population - for who social structure and family structure has been torn to tatters. If we do not find real ways to improve the lot of the less fortunate, then even a casual look at the lessons of history will predict a grim future. Enough of the Red states and Blue states, we need again to think like a United States.
23
I don't see us being able to "think like a United States" for a long, long time to come. The Blue-Red divide in this country is very real and growing both in terms of visions for a healthy economy and well-being, and in social terms on, for example, the efficacy of sex-education programs vs abstinence only. We see that divide becoming a chasm on healthcare. Our divisions are widening, not diminishing.
5
Agreed. The divide has become nothing less than a second Civil War.
The fact (not opinion--stats!) of the disintegration of traditional "family values" is reddest states is no surprise; it's a reasonable explanation for the rise of Tea Party fundamentalism: "When the message isn't being heeded, shout louder."
In Muskogee and elsewhere, Tea Party Fundamentalism is a reaction to the social changes Edsall cites. Sermonizing, rather than scientific examination, is how quasi-rural folk try both to explain, and to effect, social and natural phenomena.
In turn, social trends follow economic trends, notably the steady export of middle-class manufacturing jobs. Don't blame China!. Our most valuable corporation (by stock price) pays big bucks to elitist engineers and programmers to design cool products and software, then employs cheaper Chinese labor to manufacture them. Wealth sent abroad.
This has led to the radical redistribution & concentration of wealth into the hands of a teeny sliver at the top, as well as to China's new-found economic strength. Outside the financial sector, which by itself produces nothing of value, its manufacturing that leads to wealth.
America is in the middle of a profound revolution, economic and social--and political (see Koch Bros). "Revolution" is usually associated with the Left, but this one comes from the Right: Reaganist social policy on the far right, Clintonist free trade on the near right. That's one reason the meaningful debate in 2015-16 is between H R Clinton on the right and Bernie Saunders on the left.
In Muskogee and elsewhere, Tea Party Fundamentalism is a reaction to the social changes Edsall cites. Sermonizing, rather than scientific examination, is how quasi-rural folk try both to explain, and to effect, social and natural phenomena.
In turn, social trends follow economic trends, notably the steady export of middle-class manufacturing jobs. Don't blame China!. Our most valuable corporation (by stock price) pays big bucks to elitist engineers and programmers to design cool products and software, then employs cheaper Chinese labor to manufacture them. Wealth sent abroad.
This has led to the radical redistribution & concentration of wealth into the hands of a teeny sliver at the top, as well as to China's new-found economic strength. Outside the financial sector, which by itself produces nothing of value, its manufacturing that leads to wealth.
America is in the middle of a profound revolution, economic and social--and political (see Koch Bros). "Revolution" is usually associated with the Left, but this one comes from the Right: Reaganist social policy on the far right, Clintonist free trade on the near right. That's one reason the meaningful debate in 2015-16 is between H R Clinton on the right and Bernie Saunders on the left.
30
The social trend of fatherless homes did NOT follow economic trends. As stated, it actually started with "an educated elite that opens the door."
It began before the Tea Party, before Reagan, before Koch, and all of the other boogeymen.
"The left willfully ignores the costs." Please ponder the costs, rather than continue to exploit them in the name of left-wing politics.
It began before the Tea Party, before Reagan, before Koch, and all of the other boogeymen.
"The left willfully ignores the costs." Please ponder the costs, rather than continue to exploit them in the name of left-wing politics.
2
I lived for a short time in a very rural area of a very red state, South Carolina. The growth industry there seemed to be crystal meth labs. The county had one of the highest domestic violence rates in the country and more churches than you could spit at. Most all of the locals were chain smokers. Unwed teen pregnancy was commonplace. But get a group of them around a dinner table and they talked of all those degenerate Yankee liberals.
225
You just made my day.
1
I am not a big fan of personal anecdotes being the basis for broad conclusions, but I would have to say my experience in Texas was very similar. The fossil fuel business was an alternative in terms of a growth industry, but the drug trade was vibrant as well.
I am OK with unmarried women having children if they can afford them. Marriages fail, so why base child welfare on a casual institution? The big issue is child abuse and neglect. When a political system champions faith as a solution, consider these expressions of morality.
How should we care for the elderly? Their children.
Is medical care for children a choice? Children are the possession of their parents, so that's a parent's choice.
Should kids be required to have a high school education? Only if its approved by the church and the kids deserve it.
What about pedophiles and sexual abuse? A clear case of seduction.
Should women be allowed to marry outside the church? ... A huge issue for those raised in the faith. Its really hard to leave 'the family.' You aren't suppose to listen to music that isn't approved by the church.
Politics by faith means, "Don't tread on my fantasy." They don't even have a definition of family and if there's a problem its due to the failure of children make the magic happen. If we punish the children more things will get better. It also means we need to be aggressive warriors and demand more from the world when we run short. The logic is social services is more oppressive than the church.
In Baltimore social services has failed. Is that failure worse than the old South? I'm waiting for the trail, but at least there is one.
How should we care for the elderly? Their children.
Is medical care for children a choice? Children are the possession of their parents, so that's a parent's choice.
Should kids be required to have a high school education? Only if its approved by the church and the kids deserve it.
What about pedophiles and sexual abuse? A clear case of seduction.
Should women be allowed to marry outside the church? ... A huge issue for those raised in the faith. Its really hard to leave 'the family.' You aren't suppose to listen to music that isn't approved by the church.
Politics by faith means, "Don't tread on my fantasy." They don't even have a definition of family and if there's a problem its due to the failure of children make the magic happen. If we punish the children more things will get better. It also means we need to be aggressive warriors and demand more from the world when we run short. The logic is social services is more oppressive than the church.
In Baltimore social services has failed. Is that failure worse than the old South? I'm waiting for the trail, but at least there is one.
1
huh?
Edsall's concentration on the sphere of private morality omits consideration of the complete collapse of public morality where the institutions of the greater society have become tools of private enrichment and societal indifference. "Leaders' who do little but assist the powerful in feathering their nests and who debase the needs of the commonwealth to move towards fostering and equitable and sustainable polity are little better and a damn sight more dangerous than gay marriage, single parenting or even meth addiction.
14
So cultural breakdown was caused by - and can be remedied by - politicians?
Marriage is "an institution of the greater society," and its destruction has nothing to do with evil forces impeding the march toward equity. The sexual revolution was not a matter of "private morality," it was an orchestrated movement, one that wishes very much that we not grade its results.
Marriage is "an institution of the greater society," and its destruction has nothing to do with evil forces impeding the march toward equity. The sexual revolution was not a matter of "private morality," it was an orchestrated movement, one that wishes very much that we not grade its results.
When we elect "leaders" (some of whom of physicians) who deny science, who openly pander to demonstrable nonsense and who openly kowtow to the monied it little matters who marries whom. What sort of morality elects a lying adulterer in South Carolina, a gynecologist who had sex with patients? Ultimately, you have the leadership you deserve and hell followed after...
8
What on earth do those MSNBC talking points have to do with the fact that the left ushered in a cultural change that - science/data tells us - produces more at-risk children every year?
How can anyone who professes to care about poverty, and hard facts, support a movement that slashed the number of potential income earners per household and then feigned surprise that it has an affect on household income?
Schools, taxes, child welfare, crime and dependency are all made worse by the left's social changes - demonstrably so. Deny science, indeed.
How can anyone who professes to care about poverty, and hard facts, support a movement that slashed the number of potential income earners per household and then feigned surprise that it has an affect on household income?
Schools, taxes, child welfare, crime and dependency are all made worse by the left's social changes - demonstrably so. Deny science, indeed.
Toward the end of his essay, Edsall seems to suggest that both liberals and conservatives are partially wrong.
Perhaps this is true.
Other societies have adopted different solutions.
China has for several decades adopted a one-child policy.
Americans tend to reject such a policy out of hand. Yet the "solutions" offered by both liberals and conservatives are not working.
The poor have too many children. The fathers of those children cannot compete with the welfare system. Effectively castrated by the welfare system which channels the vast majority of benefits to families with children, males in the ghetto are expelled from the family. This means that sons have no role models.
The results are staggering. The US has 13 times the per capita rate of incarceration of Japan. Men get caught in a cycle of paying child support for children they never see, then falling behind, becoming arrested for failure to pay, losing jobs as a result in a descending spiral.
Liberals seems unconcerned with the havoc they have wrought.
Yet the only reasonable alternative is denied by conservatives who proclaim that "abortion is murder."
Where do they get this notion? Are they not aware that that God told Abraham,
"Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love...and offer him...as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."
God apparently condoned infanticide (maybe in times of duress).
Commentators tend to forget that both sides in a debate can be wrong.
Perhaps this is true.
Other societies have adopted different solutions.
China has for several decades adopted a one-child policy.
Americans tend to reject such a policy out of hand. Yet the "solutions" offered by both liberals and conservatives are not working.
The poor have too many children. The fathers of those children cannot compete with the welfare system. Effectively castrated by the welfare system which channels the vast majority of benefits to families with children, males in the ghetto are expelled from the family. This means that sons have no role models.
The results are staggering. The US has 13 times the per capita rate of incarceration of Japan. Men get caught in a cycle of paying child support for children they never see, then falling behind, becoming arrested for failure to pay, losing jobs as a result in a descending spiral.
Liberals seems unconcerned with the havoc they have wrought.
Yet the only reasonable alternative is denied by conservatives who proclaim that "abortion is murder."
Where do they get this notion? Are they not aware that that God told Abraham,
"Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love...and offer him...as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."
God apparently condoned infanticide (maybe in times of duress).
Commentators tend to forget that both sides in a debate can be wrong.
5
You seem to be saying all men in jail are there for not paying their child support. I think the statistics would belie that belief. It is clear, however, that men in prison are not supporting or parenting their children and taxpayers are paying for the incarceration. The reasons for the breakup of family, both among poor people and rich people, are complex and are happening in many countries and cultures, both conservative and liberal. In Italy divorce was illegal until recently. So, people just lived together outside of marriage if their marriages were no longer viable. People often live the way they do in spite of, not because of, many of the "rules" foisted on them.
The author’s median income and poverty statistics are based on outdated poverty estimates that don’t take cost of living into account. The U.S. Census Bureau now releases an annual poverty report that, for the first time, takes regional differences in the cost of living into account. This new poverty report turns past assumptions about rich and poor states on their head. For example, it shows that California, with 23.5 percent of its population living below level, is by far the poorest state. The U.S. Census Bureau 2012 Supplemental Poverty Report also show that Maryland and Oklahoma have identical poverty rates, with 13.4 percent of their residents below poverty level. The 10 poorest states are (1) California (23.5%), (2) Arizona (19.8%), (3) Florida (19.5%), (4) Nevada (19.4%), (5) Georgia (19.0%), (6) New York (17.8%), (7) Hawaii (17.4%), (8)Texas (16.6%), (9) Louisiana (17.0%) and (10) Mississippi (15.8%). The national average is 16.0.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p60-247.pdf
http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p60-247.pdf
2
Why do we equate government statistics to the reality of life? One can be happy and poor or sad a rich, although neither is a given. There is a level at which one has enough to live. Anything above that is icing on the cake. There are many Americans who are not just in poverty but are without any income at all or almost nothing. You see them sleeping on the streets or pan handling. Statistics are meaningless without counting those people. There's big difference between being just below the government cut-off for "poverty," and living under a tree.
Muskogee County is 65% registered Democrat.
2
Registered Democrat, eh? Lots of 'em voted R in the last several elections.
That is because they haven't bothered to change their registration since the days of FDR. The country voted 57% for Romney in 2012, only 42% for Obama.
And yet, they voted 57% Republican / Mitt Romney in the last election.
http://www.politico.com/2012-election/results/president/oklahoma/
Seems like a pretty solid part of the Red State consensus to me.
http://www.politico.com/2012-election/results/president/oklahoma/
Seems like a pretty solid part of the Red State consensus to me.
An unstudied part of the social change is not mentioned, but could be having important consequences for both Muskogee and Baltimore.
They don't burn draft cards in Muskogee because they do not exist any more. When Nixon ended the draft, he also ended one of the most powerful and effective social bonds in this country... shared service. When we had the draft we had Okies, Baltimore ghetto blacks, Boston Irish, Brooklyn Jews, California Asians, Texan Latinos and Park Avenue bluebloods mingling. That doesn't happen now.
Is the seemingly callous response of the 1% to rampant inequality stem from a lack of empathy exacerbated by a lack of familiarity? Is it time to start on the (at least now) politically suicidal track of one year of obligatory national service (not necessarily military)?
Dan Kravitz
They don't burn draft cards in Muskogee because they do not exist any more. When Nixon ended the draft, he also ended one of the most powerful and effective social bonds in this country... shared service. When we had the draft we had Okies, Baltimore ghetto blacks, Boston Irish, Brooklyn Jews, California Asians, Texan Latinos and Park Avenue bluebloods mingling. That doesn't happen now.
Is the seemingly callous response of the 1% to rampant inequality stem from a lack of empathy exacerbated by a lack of familiarity? Is it time to start on the (at least now) politically suicidal track of one year of obligatory national service (not necessarily military)?
Dan Kravitz
11
I agree that the shared service and mingling of groups that was embodied in the military draft may have been culturally valuable. It doesn't seem politically viable to reinstitute the draft. Does anyone think that could happen? Would women be included this time? Interesting.
1
Not only did the draft offer shared service, it made people travel outside of their own backyard.
We increasingly exist in our own silos, some unable to leave their communities, others keeping themselves safe inside gated communities.
We increasingly exist in our own silos, some unable to leave their communities, others keeping themselves safe inside gated communities.
9 of the 10 poorest states, with the worst health care, and worst health, and highest homicide rates (etc etc) are RED states. For the right wing media to point fingers at the "liberal failures" is a disgusting lie. Blue states have a better quality of life in every way.
Let's hope Americans are well-informed enough not to fall for this FOX news make-believe land -"the left ruined us" 24/7 propoganda. Their "red-herring" news style--"welfare mother spends check on drugs" type storylines--are distorting the realities that are so well documented in this fine editorial.
Let's hope Americans are well-informed enough not to fall for this FOX news make-believe land -"the left ruined us" 24/7 propoganda. Their "red-herring" news style--"welfare mother spends check on drugs" type storylines--are distorting the realities that are so well documented in this fine editorial.
8
It's like the the kettle calling the pot black. In his excellent article, Thomas B. Edsall documents with statistics how conservative red states have declined even faster than many of the Liberal blue states. He points out that the decline of middle-class jobs shipped overseas and religious authority, plus social values (Woodstock?) have all contributed to this current state of affairs. And it does not look good in the near future until new jobs using "real people" instead of "robots" come back.
4
The entire jobs vs. automation question deserves a closer look. It has been predicted for years that robots would displace human workers and that has/is happening even in China with its huge labor pool. Like fresh water, there are not enough traditional jobs such as in manufacturing to go around. Germany got through the recent downturn partially by job sharing; five people shared the work done previously by four. Each may have made a bit less, but they all had real jobs. Likewise, the push to send everyone off to obtain at least an associate degree is a waste of time and money for many folks who end up with a useless degree and high levels of student debt that keeps them living in their parents' basement for years and keeps them from starting traditional two parent families of their own. Some big changes are long overdue and we need to address them now while we still can.
1
Woodstock? What exactly did Woodstock do to our Red States' culture that could compare to what was done by the Ku Klux Klan?
1
"We Kettles think you Pots are exceedingly black." (Don't Wright political cartoon circa mid 1990's)
Any time I see statistics used to support a political viewpoint, I wonder how valid they are. The correlation of Southern Baptist members to unwed white teenage pregnancies may possibly be correct, but without a deeper dive one could harbor doubts. There are less than 16M members of the SBC, and membership has been in decline for a number of years. Stating that 9 states are "largely" Southern Baptist and "dominant" is a deceptive since SBC members are still a relatively small percentage of the total population.
The statistic that I've never seen published (and would like to), is what percentage of unwed births are to mothers who vote Democratic vs. Republican.
But all that is neither here nor there. Being able to drill down the Muskogee statistics shows that race and poverty are the highest correlation for unwed births there. It is interesting though that only 10% of these were to mothers on public assistance.
Looking for a valid religion correlation you might point to the difficulty of obtaining an abortion in these states. I'd add the Catholic Church to the mix. If abortions were freely available then unwanted teenage births would surely decline signficantly.
The statistic that I've never seen published (and would like to), is what percentage of unwed births are to mothers who vote Democratic vs. Republican.
But all that is neither here nor there. Being able to drill down the Muskogee statistics shows that race and poverty are the highest correlation for unwed births there. It is interesting though that only 10% of these were to mothers on public assistance.
Looking for a valid religion correlation you might point to the difficulty of obtaining an abortion in these states. I'd add the Catholic Church to the mix. If abortions were freely available then unwanted teenage births would surely decline signficantly.
4
Some of those mothers might not vote at all!
Thoughtful article as usual from Mr. Edsall. I do, however, think it's interesting you compare a relatively small rural city to a major metropolitan city roughly 16 times its size. And you've characterized this as a majority-white vs. majority-black comparison. Clicking the links provided, you see that while Muskogee is indeed majority-white, it's actually much more diverse than Baltimore. Muskogee is only 55% white, with 16% black (twice the OK average), 15% Native American, and another roughly 15% Hispanic/mixed race. Compare this to Baltimore, which is 63% Black and 29% White.
2
My parents always said, "Education! Education! Education!" But the Republicans, representing, Big and Bigger Business said, "More H- 1Bs'"
After 'W' was elected I witnessed American engineers being walked out one door, and H -1Bs walked in another. When the programs first started and the number of immigrants was small, the quality was generally excellent. When the number of visas were jacked-up, some were just fakes!
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1017-820302.html
Too, we have 'W' and lower skilled imports.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/bush.immigration/
Don't you think this has been a least part of the problem?
After 'W' was elected I witnessed American engineers being walked out one door, and H -1Bs walked in another. When the programs first started and the number of immigrants was small, the quality was generally excellent. When the number of visas were jacked-up, some were just fakes!
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1017-820302.html
Too, we have 'W' and lower skilled imports.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/bush.immigration/
Don't you think this has been a least part of the problem?
6
"Facts are stubborn things," said John Adams, a Founding Father conservatives oft ignore.
7
I don't think 'Families in Red states are adopting Blue state morality with equally disastrous results' is a fact you want anyone to focus on.
Lies, damn lies and statistics, the saying goes. While I was a little disappointed with the statistics part of an otherwise good article, the part about religion was spot on.
Religions, and I mean ALL religions, survive through the indoctrination of children, before their brains have developed enough for critical thinking and logic. Implanted in a child's mind, it is so powerful, highly intelligent men still believe. I'm thinking of things like eating the body of a long dead religious zealot, a two bit con man who (thanks to his personal angel) discovered some golden plates, a prophet who rode a winged horse on a night journey to heaven and back. (The re-entry must have been spectacular.)
What a sorry indictment of our species. Evolution has rewarded us with the largest brain/body ratio among all mammals. The haunting question is whether we will learn to use them, or bring about our on extinction.
Dinosaurs with their relatively tiny brains survived for 200 million years. How far beyond 200 thousand can we expect to survive?
Our performance is somewhat analogous to having a brand new Lexus in our garage, which we pull around with a couple od donkeys.
Religions, and I mean ALL religions, survive through the indoctrination of children, before their brains have developed enough for critical thinking and logic. Implanted in a child's mind, it is so powerful, highly intelligent men still believe. I'm thinking of things like eating the body of a long dead religious zealot, a two bit con man who (thanks to his personal angel) discovered some golden plates, a prophet who rode a winged horse on a night journey to heaven and back. (The re-entry must have been spectacular.)
What a sorry indictment of our species. Evolution has rewarded us with the largest brain/body ratio among all mammals. The haunting question is whether we will learn to use them, or bring about our on extinction.
Dinosaurs with their relatively tiny brains survived for 200 million years. How far beyond 200 thousand can we expect to survive?
Our performance is somewhat analogous to having a brand new Lexus in our garage, which we pull around with a couple od donkeys.
11
The terms "babydaddy" and "baby momma" which have gained popular acceptance in all groups are representative of how irresponsible we have become about sex. Not only do people have and seek sex with people in whom they have no emotional investment, they aren't even responsible enough to use readily available birth control. If as an adult in the 21st Century you bring a child into existence that you do not want to parent with your partner you should be ashamed of yourself no matter your race, religion, or background. You are risking a child's future for your own sexual gratification.
You may dispute the social and individual damage done by our permissive attitude towards sex, but you cant dispute the real damage done to our kids by the breakdown of the family structure. We are genetically and chemically programmed to form pair bonds for the purpose of raising kids because nature knows that this is the best formula for success. Is it any wonder in a country in which so many kids grow up in single parent homes that we have significant problems with education, poverty, drug abuse, and hopelessness?
We have become a country that puts sex above love, money above, morals, self above family. This is not a problem the government caused or a problem the government can solve. It is a problem that can only be addressed by responsible individuals fighting against what society says is ok because its easy and choosing instead to do what is right.
You may dispute the social and individual damage done by our permissive attitude towards sex, but you cant dispute the real damage done to our kids by the breakdown of the family structure. We are genetically and chemically programmed to form pair bonds for the purpose of raising kids because nature knows that this is the best formula for success. Is it any wonder in a country in which so many kids grow up in single parent homes that we have significant problems with education, poverty, drug abuse, and hopelessness?
We have become a country that puts sex above love, money above, morals, self above family. This is not a problem the government caused or a problem the government can solve. It is a problem that can only be addressed by responsible individuals fighting against what society says is ok because its easy and choosing instead to do what is right.
4
I am not a country, so how I prioritize my life is individual, not collective. Clearly you would not do the things you chastise "the country" for doing, nor would some others. Moralizing in generalities doesn't seem to offer any solutions. Who is "society?" You say "society' says certain things are ok. I hear a din of messages, many of them mixed.
But with so much irresponsibility running amok, how do you expect
to change anything by what you "propose"? Your attitude towards the problem is not terribly constructive since you offer zero concrete
suggestions.
And what exactly do you mean by "fighting against what society says
is ok"??
To dismiss government programs is not going
to help one little bit. To dismiss private nonprofit programs with
limited means without support from government funding is hopelessly
naive about what the private sector can accomplish alone, given that
a fair amount of the private sector makes a lot of money off
selling as behavior models exactly what it is you deplore.
Another underlying problem you neglect to include is that
among the number of social breakdowns, you do not
mention the escape from social chaos and breakdown by
those with the means to support socially oriented programs but who
appear to feel justified in washing their hands of the
messes they see all around them. It is as much their
problem as those actually suffering all the syndromes of
these breakdowns.
to change anything by what you "propose"? Your attitude towards the problem is not terribly constructive since you offer zero concrete
suggestions.
And what exactly do you mean by "fighting against what society says
is ok"??
To dismiss government programs is not going
to help one little bit. To dismiss private nonprofit programs with
limited means without support from government funding is hopelessly
naive about what the private sector can accomplish alone, given that
a fair amount of the private sector makes a lot of money off
selling as behavior models exactly what it is you deplore.
Another underlying problem you neglect to include is that
among the number of social breakdowns, you do not
mention the escape from social chaos and breakdown by
those with the means to support socially oriented programs but who
appear to feel justified in washing their hands of the
messes they see all around them. It is as much their
problem as those actually suffering all the syndromes of
these breakdowns.
bl:
I do not, and did not, advocate ending government programs that blunt the effects of poverty and offer some hope. I was merely pointing out that the problem we face across racial and class lines is a failure to take individual responsibility. Imagine a nation where condoms were worn by people in non-committed sexual relationships twice as often as the are now. Fewer children born into single family homes where the odds are against them from day one. Fewer children born into poverty. Fewer children growing up in poverty. And all it takes is a little more personal responsibility.
Nothing will eliminate poverty for everyone struggling with it now. Poverty can only be eliminated over time. The government has a responsibility to help those in poverty now so that the children who grow up in poverty have a better chance of breaking free of it when they are adults.
But poverty that results from individual decisions, like deciding not to use a condom, can only be eliminated by individuals making more responsible decisions. A society that condones the conception of children by those who don't want them and have no intention of parenting them is encouraging irresponsible behavior. This requires a shift in societal thinking that the government can not legislate.
I do not, and did not, advocate ending government programs that blunt the effects of poverty and offer some hope. I was merely pointing out that the problem we face across racial and class lines is a failure to take individual responsibility. Imagine a nation where condoms were worn by people in non-committed sexual relationships twice as often as the are now. Fewer children born into single family homes where the odds are against them from day one. Fewer children born into poverty. Fewer children growing up in poverty. And all it takes is a little more personal responsibility.
Nothing will eliminate poverty for everyone struggling with it now. Poverty can only be eliminated over time. The government has a responsibility to help those in poverty now so that the children who grow up in poverty have a better chance of breaking free of it when they are adults.
But poverty that results from individual decisions, like deciding not to use a condom, can only be eliminated by individuals making more responsible decisions. A society that condones the conception of children by those who don't want them and have no intention of parenting them is encouraging irresponsible behavior. This requires a shift in societal thinking that the government can not legislate.
"what role did the 249 churches in and around Muskogee play in that city’s troubles?"
This question should be asked to every single Republican wanna be president in their current show. I would loved for any journalist to ask them at every possible forum. Even though this article shows the sad state of our country, it is illuminating in the fact that struggling families are not only African American or Hispanic ones. It only shows that it is difficult to pull a family well and together.
This question should be asked to every single Republican wanna be president in their current show. I would loved for any journalist to ask them at every possible forum. Even though this article shows the sad state of our country, it is illuminating in the fact that struggling families are not only African American or Hispanic ones. It only shows that it is difficult to pull a family well and together.
5
Here we get caught up in percentages. The 71% black women's rate of unwed mothers v. white women's 29% is all the republicans drag on about. They conveniently don't mention that white women outnumber black women by at least 5-1, which is a conservative number. African Americans are only 12-15% of the population, but the above ratio needs to reflect the larger number of Hispanic women. Otherwise the ratio would be much higher, around 8.5( non black) to 1(black woman)
1
Most racial statistics are presented as percentages rather than raw numbers to illustrate disparities. For example, the media reports that African Americans are disproportionately poor, but in raw numbers there are nearly three times as many poor whites than poor blacks. The most recent Census Bureau poverty report shows that in 2013 there were 29.9 million white Americans living below poverty level and 11 million black Americans living below poverty level. (Source: Table 3: People in Poverty by Selected Characteristics: 2012 and 2013, Income and Poverty in the United States: 2013.) However, blacks are "more likely" to be poor than whites and black mothers are more likely to be unwed mothers than whites. Similarly, the majority of people shot by police are white.
3
It is a great article documenting an inexorable revolution in our social and reproductive mores brought about by technology, globalization, secularization and other factors. My only problem is that Mr. Edsall refuses to see that much of the problem is that this revolution is incomplete. There is no reason why people should get married if they don't want to. But equally, there is no reason why they should procreate just because they are having sex. I agree that teenaged pregnancy is a terrible problem because it destroys the life of the mother just as much as it does the life of the child (somehow these girls who will be professionally and intellectually crippled for life are not counted in all the hypocritical blather about "our children"). But there are two simple solutions to prevent it: contraception and abortion. The real question is why these girls don't avail themselves of these solutions. I suspect that residual religiosity plays a large part. I am awaiting a more detailed study that actually asks those unwed mothers why they have chosen to destroy their lives by having a baby with no means to support it. I bet we will have some interesting results.
7
Maybe Republicans need to stop blamimg cities and states long run by Democrats for ( their ) "moral decay," and start assuming responsibility and accountability in their own.
In other words it's "time to turn the mirror around..."
In other words it's "time to turn the mirror around..."
1
"The violent crime rate in both cities has fallen over the past decade, just as it has nationwide, although the 22.3 percent drop in Baltimore is four times as large as the 5.6 percent decline in Muskogee."
Edsall fails to mention that the violent crime statistics for Baltimore are 80% higher than in Muskogee. Why lie with statistics, in an otherwise excellent op-ed?
Edsall fails to mention that the violent crime statistics for Baltimore are 80% higher than in Muskogee. Why lie with statistics, in an otherwise excellent op-ed?
2
I vividly remember attending a presentation by Dick Gregory back in the late 60's. He emphasized that we should care about drugs in the slums because that's exactly what will be coming in the suburbs a decade later. He was wrong only the the timing -- not in the outcome.
Our communities are more linked than rural conservatives like to believe.
Our communities are more linked than rural conservatives like to believe.
1
Thank you, Mr. Edsall. Excellent piece based on facts to debunk the scare-mongering put out by the radical right (which seems to be much of the once-great Republican party).
For some eye-opening data on why the political process may be the exact method to address these issues, please see The Sprit Level: Why Greater Equality Makes Societies Stronger, by Kate Pickett and Richard Wilkinson. It is a fantastic discussion of the affects of inequality on all aspects of society, backed up with solid data.
What happened in Baltimore was truly post-racial and was about inequality, including power (cops over citizens), but not limited to power.
For the political process to matter, however, we need to reclaim it from the moralistic, juvenile nonsense pedalled by the extreme right. Picket and Wilkinson go a long way toward providing just the kind of factual information needed to do that.
For some eye-opening data on why the political process may be the exact method to address these issues, please see The Sprit Level: Why Greater Equality Makes Societies Stronger, by Kate Pickett and Richard Wilkinson. It is a fantastic discussion of the affects of inequality on all aspects of society, backed up with solid data.
What happened in Baltimore was truly post-racial and was about inequality, including power (cops over citizens), but not limited to power.
For the political process to matter, however, we need to reclaim it from the moralistic, juvenile nonsense pedalled by the extreme right. Picket and Wilkinson go a long way toward providing just the kind of factual information needed to do that.
The major factor creating and maintaining poverty in America is the underfinancing of public education, particularly in GOP Bible Belt states where Sunday religious ignorance gets much greater emphasis than Monday-Friday reading-writing-arithmetic.
Once the Bible Belt has created their bumper crops of undereducated whites and blacks, their options are limited - hence the unsurprising decline into cheap drug use, fornicating, economic despair and poverty.
And both red and blue states remain heavily segregated, a testament to modern apartheid that America refuses to tackle, partly due to White Privilege and partly due to blacks not getting their own act together.
The answer will always be better public education, less religious ignorance, less racial segregation and a fairer distribution of income that the prevailing 350:1 CEO:worker pay psychopathy.
Those are tall orders, but can become reality if right-wing Randian trickle-down poverty economics were abandoned by America and replaced with the more civilized social democratic public policies of Canada, Northern Europe, Japan, Australia, Taiwan...none of which suffers from America's disgraceful levels of poverty, teenaged pregnancies and religious ignorance.
You can make a case that Great Society policies have had some failures, but the failure of GOP plantation economics, Whites R Us racism and religious ignorance is incontrovertible and damning beyond debate.
Fair pay, fair taxation and public education is the answer.
Once the Bible Belt has created their bumper crops of undereducated whites and blacks, their options are limited - hence the unsurprising decline into cheap drug use, fornicating, economic despair and poverty.
And both red and blue states remain heavily segregated, a testament to modern apartheid that America refuses to tackle, partly due to White Privilege and partly due to blacks not getting their own act together.
The answer will always be better public education, less religious ignorance, less racial segregation and a fairer distribution of income that the prevailing 350:1 CEO:worker pay psychopathy.
Those are tall orders, but can become reality if right-wing Randian trickle-down poverty economics were abandoned by America and replaced with the more civilized social democratic public policies of Canada, Northern Europe, Japan, Australia, Taiwan...none of which suffers from America's disgraceful levels of poverty, teenaged pregnancies and religious ignorance.
You can make a case that Great Society policies have had some failures, but the failure of GOP plantation economics, Whites R Us racism and religious ignorance is incontrovertible and damning beyond debate.
Fair pay, fair taxation and public education is the answer.
161
Washington DC and NYC spend about $20k per student -- with dismal results.
Baltimore spends $17k per student with equally poor performance, the second highest spending county in Maryland. Maryland has the highest per capita income of any state.
Yet you claim the major factor in poverty is underfinanced public education spending.
Baltimore spends $17k per student with equally poor performance, the second highest spending county in Maryland. Maryland has the highest per capita income of any state.
Yet you claim the major factor in poverty is underfinanced public education spending.
1
It has been a sociological fact of history in America for over 40 years that out of wedlock childbirth is the #1 cause of poverty - and crime, and teen pregnancy and welfare dependency. A real Socrates would know that because hundreds of sociological studies going back to the famous liberal Democrat Senator Patrick Moynihan study have shown that. It's real simple: have children out of wedlock and you are going to be poor. Have kids and then divorce and you are probably also going to be poor. Drop out of school and lay around doing nothing all day and guess what - your are going to be poor. Don't work and instead do drugs and alcohol all day and.....you are going to be poor.
1
Muskogee County is 18% Native American (61% white), and over 40% of votes were cast for President Obama in 2012. A valid point may exist, but this piece didn't tie facts to stereotypes.
Furthermore, I presume most individuals (red, blue, purple, or whatever), agree families are key to a healthy society.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/40/40101.html
http://www.politico.com/2012-election/results/president/oklahoma/
Furthermore, I presume most individuals (red, blue, purple, or whatever), agree families are key to a healthy society.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/40/40101.html
http://www.politico.com/2012-election/results/president/oklahoma/
1
To those of us who are grown and bother to be informed, the comparisons made by Edsall between Muskogee and Baltimore will not come as a surprise. Nor will the somewhat frenzied attempts of the right-wing punditry to demonize liberals and progressives over Baltimore.
I wonder, though, if the lunch-bucket conservatives who get their news from Fox and their opinions from Limbaugh have any idea that Muskogee and Baltimore are in the same boat. My guess is that they don't. Fox News is no respecter of facts; rather it exists for promoting the right-wing world-view, come Hell or high water. And, now that I think of it, with climate change happening, we may soon be seeing earthly versions of both.
I wonder, though, if the lunch-bucket conservatives who get their news from Fox and their opinions from Limbaugh have any idea that Muskogee and Baltimore are in the same boat. My guess is that they don't. Fox News is no respecter of facts; rather it exists for promoting the right-wing world-view, come Hell or high water. And, now that I think of it, with climate change happening, we may soon be seeing earthly versions of both.
3
Great column. I would also note the sad story of southern Indiana and its HIV epidemic reported recently in the NYTimes. The idea that "those" problems wouldn't occur in a good ole town is making these folks realize they require the same compassion (and level-headed egalitarian solutions) as "a Baltimore" or "a Ferguson".
3
Great column. Sometimes the issue is so complex and unwieldy that a focus on two distinct characters (towns) can help in its understanding. And, I'm interested as well because my grandpa was born in Muskogee in 1903 and I live less than an hour from much of the Native American territories of northeast Oklahoma.
I clued into this quote, 'the replacement of values stressing family obligation with values stressing personal autonomy'. And, I see the bigger picture being 'communal obligation' thrown-away for individualism (i.e. capitalism). We're told that we're 'rugged individualists', as Reagan put it, and not really part of a community. It's easy to accept obscene concentrations of wealth, as well as vast poverty, when we see it as 'personal choice' and good or bad 'personal decisions or actions'.
Many changes led us to the current growing inequity and poverty and control by the few. Talking clearly about it is one way to address it and move forwards. Many in the south like to talk about morality and values, but until they love their neighbors, strangers and even enemies by helping create systems that give us all good and decent living conditions, jobs and housing, that talk's nothing but noise.
I clued into this quote, 'the replacement of values stressing family obligation with values stressing personal autonomy'. And, I see the bigger picture being 'communal obligation' thrown-away for individualism (i.e. capitalism). We're told that we're 'rugged individualists', as Reagan put it, and not really part of a community. It's easy to accept obscene concentrations of wealth, as well as vast poverty, when we see it as 'personal choice' and good or bad 'personal decisions or actions'.
Many changes led us to the current growing inequity and poverty and control by the few. Talking clearly about it is one way to address it and move forwards. Many in the south like to talk about morality and values, but until they love their neighbors, strangers and even enemies by helping create systems that give us all good and decent living conditions, jobs and housing, that talk's nothing but noise.
4
Mr. Edsall, Why not trace the disintegration of the white family structure in Red State America back a few generations. I'm sure you'll find that loss of jobs and tax cuts have contributed to the rising meth and heroin epidemics saturating these states. The truth is that low-wage work, economic disinvestment, and poor educational opportunities are detrimental to all people, regardless of color. But for poor whites, being white assuages any deleterious effects wrought by unemployment and no health care. Because when you’re poor, white, addicted and infected with HIV, it’s a public health issue, not a crime, as it would be in Ferguson, Detroit, or Baltimore. At least, when you're poor and white you can take comfort in not being black, while blaming black and brown people for your woes. And the tea party politicians they send to state houses and Capitol Hill—Gohmert, Brownback, Pence, Abbott, Paul, Cruz, et al.—are happy to distract them with nonsense about Obama’s imminent Texas invasion, while, of course, ensuring that the Koch brothers are appeased.
12
Muskogee County is 57.5 percent non-Hispanic white while Baltimore County is 60.5 percent non-Hispanic white. Only 28 states participated in the teen pregnancy study the author cites. The study showed that “the birthrate in 2010 for non-Hispanic white teenagers (23.6) was about half the rate for black teenagers (51.4) and less than half the rate for Hispanic teenagers (55.6).” The study also showed that “the abortion rate among black teenagers (34.5) was more than three times the rate for non-Hispanic whites (8.5), while the rate among Hispanic teenagers (15.3) was almost twice that rate. It also showed that “Among non-Hispanic white teenagers, the pregnancy rate declined 56% between 1990 and 2010 (from 86.6 per 1,000 to 37.8).” The study also showed that “Teenage abortion rates in 2010 were highest in New York (32 abortions per 1,000 women), Delaware (28), New Jersey (24), Hawaii (23) and Maryland (22). As for political party affiliation, 59 percent of non-Hispanic whites voted Republican while 93 percent of blacks and 71 percent of Hispanics vote Democrat in the 2012 presidential election.
2
In the first 10 years that China was part of the World Trade Organization, 40,000 factories left the US for China. That's factories, not jobs. The factories and the jobs they represent have not been replaced. If you want to solve the social unrest in this country, make it possible for people to get jobs without having to go to college and go into big debt. The manufacturing sector made it possible for the people who are poor today to have a middle class life. We can't bring those factories back but we could make more jobs possible if government wasn't prevented from investing in desperately needed infrastructure projects and other social investments in, for instance, the environment and water management.
3
A valuable article that, regrettably, misses the most salient point: The Republican Party is only committed to blaming others not solving problems.
7
And the several generation rule of Democrats in Baltimore, Detroit, Chicago?
Look in the mirror, my progressive friends.
Look in the mirror, my progressive friends.
While it should be patently obvious that restricting abortion only results in more children born out of wedlock that fact seems to escape the conservatives. In addition, I'm sure the success rate of children raised in financially secure single parent homes enjoy a huge edge over their impoverished brethren. To give such scant attention to the economic link between success and failure is to miss the root cause of these communities malaise. And yet the right wing fervently oppose a living wage, affordable health care, expanded education and job training, or any measure that would improve the chances of the poor and working poor.
1
We should send a copy of your editorial to Mike Huckabee. He's selling a book based on the Muskogee myth. Something about God, Guns, Grit and Gnonsense.
1
I would add in the effects of natural selection, as the talented and motivated young people in either Muskogee or inner city Baltimore get education and move on to more affluent urban areas, whether for reasons economic or cultural. Those left behind raise another generation, and the same process repeats. Is it shocking that after a few generations one sees the effects of this selection process?
1
After reading this column, I've come to the realization that Conservatives base all of their analysis on the premise of bigotry. They are the kings of Misanthropy, and they have complete disdain for anyone that doesn't look, act, and think like themselves.
5
That's another way of explaining it. One that's just as true.
Northern European countries are experiencing the same demographic shift while mitigating much of the cost. How? By providing a strong safety net, supporting Mothers, providing quality childcare and requiring long paid maternity leave. I know it is crazy to suggest but perhaps **gasp** we might be able to learn something from another country.
6
THE PROBLEM WITH IDEOLOGIES is that, as proven by this article, they blind and polarize people, thereby eliminating the possibility of pragmatic problem solving as part of poiltical discourse. Many tend to consider the politics of the source of comments ahead of the information being presented. As an educator, I observe that the problem is the dumbing down of American politics. The reason that the Founding Fathers wanted universal public education was to produce citizens with sufficient knowledge to participate actively in the process of governance. In the US, at least in theory, voters give their assent to being governed, suggesting that the plan was for citizens and those in government were meant to work together to make things go well. There never has been, nor ever will there be, any objective gauge for morality. By contrast, there are plenty of objective gauges of rational political discourse and problem solving. As to so-called cohabitation, in the Bible, all that was required for a couples to marry was to present themselves as spouses and exchange something of value. The great majority of engaged in so-called cohabitation fall within the morality of the Bible. But for some that doesn't cut it. I think many women would marry if they were paid equally and given the same legal rights to make decisions about their bodies as men, whereas now, they view marriage as a vestige of male exploitation and having the Biblical status of being the property of the husband.
2
Edsall flatout rocks. The trenchancy of his journalism dissolves specious wedge issues and the narrowness of ideological concerns that so ruin prospect for politics continuing as the art of the possible.
9
Come on, if all those people demonizing Baltimore were to recognize reality they wouldn't be racists in the first place. And, of course, when a poor black woman becomes pregnant out of wedlock it shows a lack of moral turpitude; when it was Sarah Palin's daughter it showed a refreshing independence.
28
A very important and very well done article. These problems are too complicated and too widespread for the simple conservative response of 'we need to bring that old time religion and morality'. I believe digging deeper into these numbers finds that it is the well educated elites the populist Republicans rail against who stay married, have 'nuclear families' avoid drugs and even avoid churches.
The real problem that cuts across all geography and political parties is poverty. Our loss of middle class, loss of unions and high paid blue collar jobs, and the high wealth disparity all contribute. Adding religion through legislation and eliminating assistance to the needy won't solve that problem. What happened to the promise to provide retraining for workers displaced by free trade agreements? Where is the national commitment to education so our children can effectively compete in the rapidly changing world? Does anyone seriously believe all we need is less government assistance (lower funding for schools, etc.) and more negative consequences and then all the good folks of Muskogee and elsewhere will quit having children out of wedlock and quit taking drugs?
The real problem that cuts across all geography and political parties is poverty. Our loss of middle class, loss of unions and high paid blue collar jobs, and the high wealth disparity all contribute. Adding religion through legislation and eliminating assistance to the needy won't solve that problem. What happened to the promise to provide retraining for workers displaced by free trade agreements? Where is the national commitment to education so our children can effectively compete in the rapidly changing world? Does anyone seriously believe all we need is less government assistance (lower funding for schools, etc.) and more negative consequences and then all the good folks of Muskogee and elsewhere will quit having children out of wedlock and quit taking drugs?
1
Merle Haggard said it best in 1982 when he asked if the good times really over for good:
Are we rolling down hill
Like a snowball headed for Hell?
With no kind of chance
For the Flag or the Liberty Bell
Are we rolling down hill
Like a snowball headed for Hell?
With no kind of chance
For the Flag or the Liberty Bell
1
Manny working class whites have also bought into the government subsidy dependency mentality that has devastated so much of the Black community. The Liberal Progressive political class has been very successful at selling middle America on subsidy as opposed to opportunity. While this may work well for the political elites it is not good for the country as it will consign us to a reduced future and a two tier society.
2
Although I believe that the rise in single-parent households is socially unhealthy, that's a secondary issue not the primary one as Mr. Edsall treats it. What's primary is whether I'm being asked to support those households.
I happily pay taxes for schools (though I have no kids) and all sorts of other public infrastructure which benefit others more than me. I also happily pay taxes to assist those who fall on hard times. What I resent is paying taxes to support children who are born to people who cannot support themselves even as they bear/father those children.
Having children may be a human right but having me support them is not.
I happily pay taxes for schools (though I have no kids) and all sorts of other public infrastructure which benefit others more than me. I also happily pay taxes to assist those who fall on hard times. What I resent is paying taxes to support children who are born to people who cannot support themselves even as they bear/father those children.
Having children may be a human right but having me support them is not.
6
Poverty and hopelessness lies behind all of the social problems described in this piece. As poverty and hopelessness has increased in our inner cities and poor southern states we see an increase in all of these breakdowns in individuals and families.
End poverty and we will eliminate many of the social problems that are caused by poverty and hopelessness. That will be much easier than trying psychological and sociological interventions for all poor Americans and their communities.
End poverty and we will eliminate many of the social problems that are caused by poverty and hopelessness. That will be much easier than trying psychological and sociological interventions for all poor Americans and their communities.
63
Agree. But where / how do you turn around poverty? With Education. And that comes back to values. Look at Asians as mentioned numerous times in these comments. It's not just about family values - but about many other values, and ethics (work, study, etc.). Not sure these can be changed by political or religious leanings.
There seems to be an implicit assumption in this article, although I doubt the author intends it, that the "old morality" is better than the "new morality." I submit that there is nothing inherently immoral about cohabitation; it's just another family unit model. What is immoral is the failure to teach pubescent kids about birth control. Sex is not inherently immoral; it's the outcome of sex - children - that is the problem for society. Marriage is a contract of parental responsibility. If one doesn't plan to have children, it's really not a necessary ritual. However, anyone who thinks that societal prohibitions against premarital sex is going to prevent kids from engaging in it is naive. It's time to reevaluate what is the basis of moral distinctions and redefine problematic behavior.
11
I believe the author is contrasting the right's standard on "old morality" and the outcomes we see where they hold sway are very different.
He is holding their feet to the fire on their criticism of "libruls"
He is holding their feet to the fire on their criticism of "libruls"
Liberalism's main accomplishment is not helping the very poor, but is helping the middle class. I've lived long enough to see that neither liberalism nor conservatism is able to make long term improvements for those at the bottom of the ladder.
So many in the middle class see the failure to solve the problems of poor inner city life as a failure of liberalism, but completely fail to recognize their middle class life style springs from that very same ideology.
Conservatism is slowly eating away at the middle class. The cost of education is being transferred from society in general to the individual which serves to lock out a growing portion of the population from entry into the middle class. We are moving toward a society where the very rich reap all the benefits and the rest of us slowly descend into despair.
We've become so focused condemning any program that might give benefit to those we deem undeserving, that we fail to notice how much of the benefits of living in the richest country in the world, we have lost.
So many in the middle class see the failure to solve the problems of poor inner city life as a failure of liberalism, but completely fail to recognize their middle class life style springs from that very same ideology.
Conservatism is slowly eating away at the middle class. The cost of education is being transferred from society in general to the individual which serves to lock out a growing portion of the population from entry into the middle class. We are moving toward a society where the very rich reap all the benefits and the rest of us slowly descend into despair.
We've become so focused condemning any program that might give benefit to those we deem undeserving, that we fail to notice how much of the benefits of living in the richest country in the world, we have lost.
207
The political process, at least for the GOP, is not to "resolve conflicts" or mitigate problems, but to distort, prolong and exploit them to win elections. If the fabric, economy, morals and prosperity of the nation declines, they don't care, as long as there are Wall Street billionaires to fund the next campaign.
11
Thanks for this, Thomas.
Ignorance and despair lead to scapegoating. Southerners need to look in the mirror, and not at their preacher, who drives a Cadillac SUV.
Ignorance and despair lead to scapegoating. Southerners need to look in the mirror, and not at their preacher, who drives a Cadillac SUV.
23
The Republicans always acted as if this is due to moral failure, while Democrats have pointed to economic forces and the loss of good jobs in a community.
6
This is very disappointing. Mr Edsall martials a number of interesting and illuminating facts only to squander them on flabby moral posturing. The problem at hand is not a question of morality or the lack thereof. What we have here is quite obviously an economic problem, pure and simple.
The comonality between the troubled populations of Baltimore and Muskogee is clearly not their relative skin color; it is poverty and nothing more. An income based class analysis of both cities would doubtless find that stable families predominate among those citizens with stable upper middle class and above incomes.
It is a tired and intellectually lazy trope to blame the poor for their poverty. It is a moral outrage to blame the conditions into which society thrusts the poor on their moral failings. The only real moral issue here is the fact that the richest country in the world has allowed, over the last 30 plus years, the redistribution of an ever increasing share of the nations wealth upward from its lower and middle class to a tiny minority of the population.
The solution to poverty is not moral exhortation, it is jobs, living wage jobs for all who need them. Until such time as our populace demands of its politicians the moral backbone to address that central issue, and address it with deeds not words. until just that time, the disgrace of widespread poverty in America will remain, first and foremost, a moral failing of our political system.
The comonality between the troubled populations of Baltimore and Muskogee is clearly not their relative skin color; it is poverty and nothing more. An income based class analysis of both cities would doubtless find that stable families predominate among those citizens with stable upper middle class and above incomes.
It is a tired and intellectually lazy trope to blame the poor for their poverty. It is a moral outrage to blame the conditions into which society thrusts the poor on their moral failings. The only real moral issue here is the fact that the richest country in the world has allowed, over the last 30 plus years, the redistribution of an ever increasing share of the nations wealth upward from its lower and middle class to a tiny minority of the population.
The solution to poverty is not moral exhortation, it is jobs, living wage jobs for all who need them. Until such time as our populace demands of its politicians the moral backbone to address that central issue, and address it with deeds not words. until just that time, the disgrace of widespread poverty in America will remain, first and foremost, a moral failing of our political system.
15
It is more than poverty it is culture and class. Read Tuesdays WSJ oped by William McGurn. It is the failure of Progressive Liberalism to address societal problems. Tough love beats enabling when the consequences are considered. Victim hood supported by dependency on government subsidy leads to servitude.
That would be Progressive Liberalism as defined by Regressive Conservatism. Living wage jobs are not government subsidies although government policies can and should lay the groundwork, through infrastructure investment, for the extension of living wage jobs to all who need them. That's Progressive Liberalism.
Regressive Conservatism consists of heaping scorn on the victims of RC policies for failing to pull themselves up by bootstraps they don't have and which RC policies deny them access to. Regressive Conservatism is just a modern day patina on the same moral rot of the privileged that lay at the heart of the Confederacy.
Regressive Conservatism consists of heaping scorn on the victims of RC policies for failing to pull themselves up by bootstraps they don't have and which RC policies deny them access to. Regressive Conservatism is just a modern day patina on the same moral rot of the privileged that lay at the heart of the Confederacy.
Shall we state the obvious? "It may be asking too much of the political process to resolve conflicts like these."
The Democrats didn't start this revolution in the family and the Republicans can't stop it, but, in the latter case, they make political hay by pretending they can. Pretending is good enough for millions of voters.
Social trends and the overall situation in Baltimore have very little to with politics or even government generally. The jobs left Baltimore and the people stayed. That's the fundamental problem.Where'd they go? The steel mills shutdown, challenged by competition from around the world. The port operations, some of the largest in America, were increasingly automated. The use of big containers for shipping alone probably eliminated 100s of jobs at the port.
Some of the jobs went south, to places like Texas, where there is no fear of unions and business people can have breakfast, lunch and dinner with elected officials if they want to in order to plead their needs. The south offers lower taxes, tax incentives to move, slush fund payments for new job creation and air conditioning in the summer time to make it all possible. Plus, hundreds of old and new laws on the books that favor the ruling classes over workers.
The charge that the Dems made the Baltimore mess is totally specious. As for family breakdown in the south, it can be tied to the inability of many to establish a stable life through decent wages and steady employment.
Doug Terry
The Democrats didn't start this revolution in the family and the Republicans can't stop it, but, in the latter case, they make political hay by pretending they can. Pretending is good enough for millions of voters.
Social trends and the overall situation in Baltimore have very little to with politics or even government generally. The jobs left Baltimore and the people stayed. That's the fundamental problem.Where'd they go? The steel mills shutdown, challenged by competition from around the world. The port operations, some of the largest in America, were increasingly automated. The use of big containers for shipping alone probably eliminated 100s of jobs at the port.
Some of the jobs went south, to places like Texas, where there is no fear of unions and business people can have breakfast, lunch and dinner with elected officials if they want to in order to plead their needs. The south offers lower taxes, tax incentives to move, slush fund payments for new job creation and air conditioning in the summer time to make it all possible. Plus, hundreds of old and new laws on the books that favor the ruling classes over workers.
The charge that the Dems made the Baltimore mess is totally specious. As for family breakdown in the south, it can be tied to the inability of many to establish a stable life through decent wages and steady employment.
Doug Terry
10
Merle Haggard today likely would claim that RedLand generally were more thoroughly devastated by Blue values and outcomes than were ever imposed by our civil war and Reconstruction. If he did, he could have a point.
But you have to give it to RedLand -- they keep pitching traditional American values of self-reliance and moral fiber, even as these qualities are eroded by the universal availability of free cheese and Band-Aids. You don't see a lot of that resistance up north or back east.
Tom focuses today on the social dissolution one sees in our more conservative communities. I'd counter that when indigenous peoples in the Americas and elsewhere were exposed to European pathogens introduced by explorers and conquerors, they didn't fare much better. Like those pathogens, dependency, then the programs that embody and perpetuate it, decimate even those who fight against it. Conservative communities didn't invent the pathogens, they had them forced onto their communities; and, not surprisingly, the weaker succumbed to them -- are still succumbing.
The interesting thing in Tom's argument is that he doesn't effectively answer Nolte, Ingraham or even the WSJ. They were commenting on the EFFECTS of progressive programs everywhere, not on the exclusivity of those effects to Baltimore.
Feminism, the sexual revolution, all the excuses given here for our reduction as a people, don't amount to a hill of beans when compared to what excessive dependency has done to us -- ALL of us.
But you have to give it to RedLand -- they keep pitching traditional American values of self-reliance and moral fiber, even as these qualities are eroded by the universal availability of free cheese and Band-Aids. You don't see a lot of that resistance up north or back east.
Tom focuses today on the social dissolution one sees in our more conservative communities. I'd counter that when indigenous peoples in the Americas and elsewhere were exposed to European pathogens introduced by explorers and conquerors, they didn't fare much better. Like those pathogens, dependency, then the programs that embody and perpetuate it, decimate even those who fight against it. Conservative communities didn't invent the pathogens, they had them forced onto their communities; and, not surprisingly, the weaker succumbed to them -- are still succumbing.
The interesting thing in Tom's argument is that he doesn't effectively answer Nolte, Ingraham or even the WSJ. They were commenting on the EFFECTS of progressive programs everywhere, not on the exclusivity of those effects to Baltimore.
Feminism, the sexual revolution, all the excuses given here for our reduction as a people, don't amount to a hill of beans when compared to what excessive dependency has done to us -- ALL of us.
2
I hope youre referring to every state govt in the deep south who, unable to make their own expenses, live off the socialism provided by the more vital blue states.
Even the degradation and ignorance of the red staters is the fault of "libruls"
Even the degradation and ignorance of the red staters is the fault of "libruls"
1
Richard, my real dependency is on the $9 service industry job I have, where I don't get breaks, health insurance, sick days, or full time hours if I want them. Meanwhile the cost of a higher education is far out of my reach, because I have no savings and little disposable income. The only reason I was able to get off your dreaded dependency-inducing moral pit of food stamps is because my second job--which I worked for 5 years to get--provides health insurance. And that's probably only because it's legally required now.
I'm already regularly working 60 hours per week, between the two jobs, and thank goodness I haven't had the misfortune of getting pregnant. But then again, that's probably only because a state-subsidized family planning program footed the bill for my birth control for years. But go ahead, call me dependent and morally bankrupt.
I don't get it. The tipped minimum wage hasn't risen since the 90s, 52% of fast food workers are on public assistance, paid maternity leave isn't a thing, paid sick time isn't even a thing, and meanwhile the S&P 500 did better in 2014 than at any previous point in history? And I was making $2.65 an hour? You gotta be kiddin me.
I'm already regularly working 60 hours per week, between the two jobs, and thank goodness I haven't had the misfortune of getting pregnant. But then again, that's probably only because a state-subsidized family planning program footed the bill for my birth control for years. But go ahead, call me dependent and morally bankrupt.
I don't get it. The tipped minimum wage hasn't risen since the 90s, 52% of fast food workers are on public assistance, paid maternity leave isn't a thing, paid sick time isn't even a thing, and meanwhile the S&P 500 did better in 2014 than at any previous point in history? And I was making $2.65 an hour? You gotta be kiddin me.
2
Dependency is to blame for the increase of drug use and births out of wedlock? So all these rednecks in Muskogee are getting high on meth and crack because of the pervasive amount of dependency?
Utter nonsense.
Utter nonsense.
1
When African Americans engage in dysfunctional behavior, it is a "black problem," but when white Americans do exactly the same thing, it is just "a problem." When there is crime, illegal drugs, low school attendance, and family breakdown in a place like Baltimore, the "black community" is faulted, and even castigated. But when there is a very similar dynamic in a place like Austin, Indiana, where AIDS is spreading due to dirty needles shared among addicts, no one says anything about the failure of the "white community."
I want to say I was dismayed by the number and intensity of the comments in the Times ripping apart the "black community." It was all: "they" have to get their act together, "they" have to get their men to be better role models, etc. Never "we."
Too many white Americans conceive of their black neighbors as some kind of alien species that have landed in their midst - rather than a diverse population that largely arrived in America several 100 years before most white people did - and who also largely built the place in the 17th-19th centuries with their forced labor. Maybe a little understanding, or at least a lowering of the volume, would be in order.
I want to say I was dismayed by the number and intensity of the comments in the Times ripping apart the "black community." It was all: "they" have to get their act together, "they" have to get their men to be better role models, etc. Never "we."
Too many white Americans conceive of their black neighbors as some kind of alien species that have landed in their midst - rather than a diverse population that largely arrived in America several 100 years before most white people did - and who also largely built the place in the 17th-19th centuries with their forced labor. Maybe a little understanding, or at least a lowering of the volume, would be in order.
285
Thanks.
When people talk about black culture, where do they think black culture comes from? Does it not come in part from black interaction with whites? Cultures that occupy contiguous areas, where members are interspersed and share the same language, history, money, food, entertainment, and physical space can't be distinct. It's all one culture.
When people talk about black culture, where do they think black culture comes from? Does it not come in part from black interaction with whites? Cultures that occupy contiguous areas, where members are interspersed and share the same language, history, money, food, entertainment, and physical space can't be distinct. It's all one culture.
2
Well said. But of course, for this to happen people need to be educated about the history of this place and its peoples. Not happening. Not going to happen.
1
Stacy "Too many white Americans conceive of their black neighbors as some kind of alien species that have landed in their midst..."
You unwittingly highlight an important issue. Too many blacks assume that fatherless families, high crime rates and drug usage, and receipt of government benefits are the norm. What kind of culture would tolerate significant numbers of people within it who would disparage and insult those members of the black community that aspire to academic achievement? (Academically motivated black youth are often accused of acting White) What kind of culture raises children who dream up the knock out game?
So, yes Stacy I am quite often confounded by what I see in the black community that is not representative of what I see as a white person in white communities.
JD
You unwittingly highlight an important issue. Too many blacks assume that fatherless families, high crime rates and drug usage, and receipt of government benefits are the norm. What kind of culture would tolerate significant numbers of people within it who would disparage and insult those members of the black community that aspire to academic achievement? (Academically motivated black youth are often accused of acting White) What kind of culture raises children who dream up the knock out game?
So, yes Stacy I am quite often confounded by what I see in the black community that is not representative of what I see as a white person in white communities.
JD
1
The article makes a very important point. Political parties capitalize on social forces that have no real political basis. For instance conservatives love to harp on 'freedom'- well it seems the right to co-habit or to have children as a single mother is just another from of 'freedom' -like the 'freedom' to carry a gun and stand your ground and yet the right calls it irresponsible and dangerous, unlike carrying a gun and stand-your-ground laws which we know are socially responsible and harmless.
It seems to me that this so-called "second demographic transition" is no new phenomena. In fact it may be the basic social force of western society. The demand for greater personal autonomy was the foundation for the US Constitution, for the French Revolution (and even, in the beginning, for the Russian Revolution) and it is the ongoing engine for social change demanded by both parties. The problem lies in the fact that this human urge seems primal and isn't confined the way the elites would prefer. Republicans don't want 'moral freedom' and Democrats don't want to remove government as an agent of support for the less well off or to end regulation of a capitalist structure that is too powerful for individuals to engage fairly.
The power to define what 'freedom' is, and where its boundary lies, is the ultimate challenge in the war between liberals and conservatives.
It seems to me that this so-called "second demographic transition" is no new phenomena. In fact it may be the basic social force of western society. The demand for greater personal autonomy was the foundation for the US Constitution, for the French Revolution (and even, in the beginning, for the Russian Revolution) and it is the ongoing engine for social change demanded by both parties. The problem lies in the fact that this human urge seems primal and isn't confined the way the elites would prefer. Republicans don't want 'moral freedom' and Democrats don't want to remove government as an agent of support for the less well off or to end regulation of a capitalist structure that is too powerful for individuals to engage fairly.
The power to define what 'freedom' is, and where its boundary lies, is the ultimate challenge in the war between liberals and conservatives.
8
Ed,
Were you absent when proper use of statistics was taught? Yes, it's true to say that a 71.4 vs 57.3 is a 25% increase, and that 29.3 to 9.6 is a 205% increase. It is also just plain silly.
What matters here are two things. First, that Blacks have an extremely high out-of-wedlock birth rate, and that it has increased by about 20% since 1980. Second, that Whites started with an extremely low out-of-wedlock birth rate in 1980, and that it too has increased by about 20% since 1980.
Were you absent when proper use of statistics was taught? Yes, it's true to say that a 71.4 vs 57.3 is a 25% increase, and that 29.3 to 9.6 is a 205% increase. It is also just plain silly.
What matters here are two things. First, that Blacks have an extremely high out-of-wedlock birth rate, and that it has increased by about 20% since 1980. Second, that Whites started with an extremely low out-of-wedlock birth rate in 1980, and that it too has increased by about 20% since 1980.
6
Edsall's use of statistics isn't silly at all. It's an entirely proper means of showing that the rate of White out of wedlock births is increasing much faster than the African American rate. Namely, the rate of increase in the percentage of White out of wedlock births is 205% from 1980 to 2013 (calculated as (29.3-9.6)/9.6)) while the rate of increase in African American out of wedlock births is 25% ((71.4-57.3)/57.3)). While the White out of wedlock rate is lower in absolute terms, it's increased at roughly 8x the African America rate over a 23 year period.
From these data and others, Edsall concludes that "white communities in red states" are now experiencing many of the problems associated with out of wedlock births that were once largely isolated to African American communities. That is a reasonable conclusion to draw from the data.
From these data and others, Edsall concludes that "white communities in red states" are now experiencing many of the problems associated with out of wedlock births that were once largely isolated to African American communities. That is a reasonable conclusion to draw from the data.
Matt,
I have no debt today. But on Monday I borrowed $20 for lunch because I forgot my wallet. You would say that my debt went up infinitely. A better measure would be to say that it went up from 0% of my net worth to about 0.001%.
I have no debt today. But on Monday I borrowed $20 for lunch because I forgot my wallet. You would say that my debt went up infinitely. A better measure would be to say that it went up from 0% of my net worth to about 0.001%.
Of course unwed motherhood will rise more in those "religious" states where they restrict access to a) sex education b) birth control and c) abortion as well de-funding Planned Parenthood. At the end of the day the politicians pandering to the "religious" right love "babies" from the moment they are conceived right up until they are born (with the exception of paying for public support for prenatal care.
19
There are so many more factors at work. Stagnant wages aren't mentioned. Mass incarceration of blacks isn't mentioned. Analysis of women's expectations of independence now that women not only can but usually must work is missing. People's rising expectations of what a good marriage should be perversely makes marriage attempts less likely. This discussion needs another column.
11
One of the best predictors of becoming and stayong married is getting a college education. Gettong to college requires long-term planning and usually takes parental involvement to achieve. Participating in this process promotes long term thinking and family relationships. Given that your parents have more influence over your world view than anyone else. Understanding this phenomena would likely help us understand the best way to achieve similar results for those who are going to college.
2
Whew! What will America invest in: generational poverty, children raised by single parents, minimum-low wage jobs, meth lab proliferation, incarcerated young men, unequal education, restricted access to birth control/abortion? Looking at the great war budget; over 1/2 trillion and a feckless Congress--I weep. These aren't red or blue state problems. These are people we will support one way or another: The problems may seem local to a community or county or state--but they impact all.
12
There's always a lot of criticism of citizens' failures, but never any proposals to solve such problems. It's a political football that gets tossed around, to gain votes, but after the election "leaders" go back to their parochial, money-grabbing schemes designed to reenforce their power, not to serve the people.
The problem with the Muskogee comparison is that there are many towns of 38,000 that are far better off than Muskogee or Baltimore. The analysis suffers from what is known as selection bias. My guess is that a random selection of one town from all U.S. towns of 35,000-40,000 population would turn up a town far better off than Baltimore in a substatial majority of selections.
4
The Ozark mountains are very close to Muskogee. This area still struggles with high disability, low academic scores that are far worse than the Bronx, and low wages. I do look up the statistics occasionally since my family lives there. The rural areas lack medical care, but that's where the low income live. The urban areas (35-40,000) require skill or education to survive, but they do have access to medical services. There is real poverty and crime in economically strained areas everywhere.
The concern is the religious influence of the Republican Party. It has altered religion as we know it. We need to understand how it has affected the people who live there and challenge faith as a blessing of ignorance.
The concern is the religious influence of the Republican Party. It has altered religion as we know it. We need to understand how it has affected the people who live there and challenge faith as a blessing of ignorance.
2
Edsall says some are "demonizing the social and cultural values" of Baltimore. If the malaise and rioting in Baltimore reflect liberal cultural values, then we don't need liberal cultural values, demonized or not.
Note also that Edsall's fundamental, core argument is that what conservatives advocate for -- more jobs, stronger families, better schools, and active faith -- will make no difference. In truth, all the research shows that these things have positive impacts on families and children.
He says the mess is all due to "inexorable forces" worldwide. Edsall has given up on America. I haven't. I hope the people of Baltimore and Muskogee haven't either.
Note also that Edsall's fundamental, core argument is that what conservatives advocate for -- more jobs, stronger families, better schools, and active faith -- will make no difference. In truth, all the research shows that these things have positive impacts on families and children.
He says the mess is all due to "inexorable forces" worldwide. Edsall has given up on America. I haven't. I hope the people of Baltimore and Muskogee haven't either.
5
The problem is that while the Republicans claim that what they desire are policies that strengthen families and provide better jobs, their actual policies are designed to destroy those things. The only exception is fundamentalist religion: they are great fans of that.
12
That malaise and rioting is not the result of liberal thinking. It's the result of unemployment, terrible schools, lack of investment in neighborhoods, police abuse, systemic racial prejudice, and the corrupt court system. All they really need is the equal treatment our laws are supposed to provide.
14
Less than two weeks have gone by since a Baltimorian was murdered in cold blood by six peace officers sworn to protect its citizens. Perhaps that's the reason there has been rioting, or have you forgotten that inconvenient circumstance, blasmaic?
4
it seems that the old social order has fallen apart without a new one to take its place. Sure there was some value in the old social norms, unless of course you were a minority, or a woman. In the meantime, much of the reason for the shifting morals of america (and the world?) is the spread of technology, and the fact that our institutions came to be more about protecting those who were a part of the institution, instead of those the institution was created to serve. We still pay for the scandals of watergate, the moral majority preachers, the catholic church's pedophile protection. We suffer from sending our kids to fight unjust and unneccessary wars like Viet Nam and Iraq. In the end, our institutions of authority failed our people, not the other way around. Until our people are represented by institutions worthy of being authorities, we will have to settle for no authority.
2
Edsall states: "The high pregnancy and birthrates among white teenagers in states where the Christian right and Tea Party forces are strong reflect the inability of ideological doctrines stressing social conservatism to halt the gradual shift away from traditional family structures."
However, he doesn't actually look at Christian right people or tea party people.
Rather, he has done a very superficial and incomplete analysis in comparing Muskogee to Baltimore. Muskogee is not monolithically conservative or religious. (A substantial number of people in Muskogee voted Democratic) What should be examined in Muskogee is the extent to which religious or tea party people in Muskogee have, for instance, drug problems compared to non-religious people in Muskogee or non-religious people in other places.
On the larger point, where Edsall tries to diminish the importance of traditional family values, we have a very good comparison between Asians and other ethnic groups. Asians have very strong family bonds compared to other groups and high achievement. It seems very likely that liberals assaults on traditional family values have weakened society as a whole. If Edsall and liberals wish to minimize the importance of family values and personal responsibility, they need to look at people who actually aspire to practice religion or have a strong commitment to family or personal responsibility. He has not done so. I look forward to a real comparison.
JD
However, he doesn't actually look at Christian right people or tea party people.
Rather, he has done a very superficial and incomplete analysis in comparing Muskogee to Baltimore. Muskogee is not monolithically conservative or religious. (A substantial number of people in Muskogee voted Democratic) What should be examined in Muskogee is the extent to which religious or tea party people in Muskogee have, for instance, drug problems compared to non-religious people in Muskogee or non-religious people in other places.
On the larger point, where Edsall tries to diminish the importance of traditional family values, we have a very good comparison between Asians and other ethnic groups. Asians have very strong family bonds compared to other groups and high achievement. It seems very likely that liberals assaults on traditional family values have weakened society as a whole. If Edsall and liberals wish to minimize the importance of family values and personal responsibility, they need to look at people who actually aspire to practice religion or have a strong commitment to family or personal responsibility. He has not done so. I look forward to a real comparison.
JD
41
Just by chance, I came upon an article about how the Vietnamese got into the manicure business shortly after my post. Family motivation and support plays a big role in their society, and starting from scratch, they have constructed a successful manicure business culture. Compare their work and motivation to that of the dominant culture in Baltimore. See http://news.yahoo.com/hollywood-star-made-vietnamese-refugees-beautician...
JD
JD
1
"If Edsall and liberals wish to minimize the importance of family values and personal responsibility, they need to look at people who actually aspire to practice religion or have a strong commitment to family or personal responsibility. He has not done so. I look forward to a real comparison."
The point of the article is to look at the effects of policies recommended by conservatives vs. liberals, not to try to determine who is somehow authentic in their aspirations. The question is, do results matter? In the Northeast, where attitudes toward divorce and sexuality are more liberal than in the South, divorce rates are lower. Conservative politicians constantly predict disaster for the country and states that diverge from conservative values, but the point of the article is to show that the statistics don't bear this out.
The point of the article is to look at the effects of policies recommended by conservatives vs. liberals, not to try to determine who is somehow authentic in their aspirations. The question is, do results matter? In the Northeast, where attitudes toward divorce and sexuality are more liberal than in the South, divorce rates are lower. Conservative politicians constantly predict disaster for the country and states that diverge from conservative values, but the point of the article is to show that the statistics don't bear this out.
3
"Asians have very strong family bonds compared to other groups and high achievement."
All righty! Let's get down to gross generalizations, shall we?
One explanation for the success of some immigrants from some Asian countries (eg. Korea) is that once in the US, they form tight-knit communities with their countrymen. Everyone puts what money they can into a communal pot. Then a group decision is made as to who can borrow the money to start a business, go to college, or otherwise improve his lot in life. The borrower is expected to repay the debt ASAP. Comm-unities. Comm-unal. Comm-??
One explanation for the academic success of some Asian children is the rigidity of the societies they come from, where obedience and subordinating the needs of the individual to the needs of the country are compulsory and strictly enforced from the government. There's a name for that type of government. Comm-?? Commu-?? *thinking hard*
All righty! Let's get down to gross generalizations, shall we?
One explanation for the success of some immigrants from some Asian countries (eg. Korea) is that once in the US, they form tight-knit communities with their countrymen. Everyone puts what money they can into a communal pot. Then a group decision is made as to who can borrow the money to start a business, go to college, or otherwise improve his lot in life. The borrower is expected to repay the debt ASAP. Comm-unities. Comm-unal. Comm-??
One explanation for the academic success of some Asian children is the rigidity of the societies they come from, where obedience and subordinating the needs of the individual to the needs of the country are compulsory and strictly enforced from the government. There's a name for that type of government. Comm-?? Commu-?? *thinking hard*
1
Personal responsibility has always and continues to be the key to be successful, productive and yes, happy among out fellow citizens. Religions, particularly the brands we see of late, are about power and telling others how to live. Personal responsibility requires insight, education, and the critical thinking skills that lead to moral and responsible attitudes and behaviors. Religion is counterproductive to a healthy society.
5
As a native of a "red state," it is certainly my experience that the people of those states who thus abandon traditional morality very often do so in explicit, conscious rejection of traditional conservative values. Reductionist perspectives on religion inherited from otherwise moribund 19th- and 20th-century intellectual trends that are commonly held among American cultural elites are to blame, as are the economic elite's statist and corporatist co-optations of religion.
One example is the fact that it is still possible to hear Karl Marx cited saying that "religion is the opiate of the masses." In a world defined by the Iranian revolution, Islamic State, religious Zionism, and sectarian warfare in the Middle East, how can it be possible still to believe that religion does nothing more than lull people to sleep? It might be more proper to say that "religion is the amphetamine of the masses!" (Along with the old witticism adapted to say that, in too many red states, methamphetamine is the religion of the masses.) Continued repetition of that hackneyed stereotype makes clear that the understanding of religion among the general populace (and beyond) is woefully simplistic and outdated.
One example is the fact that it is still possible to hear Karl Marx cited saying that "religion is the opiate of the masses." In a world defined by the Iranian revolution, Islamic State, religious Zionism, and sectarian warfare in the Middle East, how can it be possible still to believe that religion does nothing more than lull people to sleep? It might be more proper to say that "religion is the amphetamine of the masses!" (Along with the old witticism adapted to say that, in too many red states, methamphetamine is the religion of the masses.) Continued repetition of that hackneyed stereotype makes clear that the understanding of religion among the general populace (and beyond) is woefully simplistic and outdated.
63
You write "Reductionist perspectives on religion inherited from otherwise moribund 19th- and 20th-century intellectual trends that are commonly held among American cultural elites are to blame, as are the economic elite's statist and corporatist co-optations of religion." This sounds very erudite and important but what does it actually mean? Who are these "cultural elites?" Something tells me they are the people who don't agree with you.
Are you still hearing the voice of Karl Marx? That could be a problem. Just because says a thing doesn't make it true! Not everyone believes his opinion, even among "elitists." Religion can be a comfortable solace (thus the charge of "opiate") or, better, an impetus to do good. It can also be an excuse to be hateful, judgmental or violent. Vague generalities about religions, cultural elites, or any group are just that. I'd like to see an to end stereotyping and finger pointing. There are many fine people of faith or no religion at all. Unfortunately there are many who distort religious teachings for their own selfish ends, just like the kinds of "elites" you disdain.
Are you still hearing the voice of Karl Marx? That could be a problem. Just because says a thing doesn't make it true! Not everyone believes his opinion, even among "elitists." Religion can be a comfortable solace (thus the charge of "opiate") or, better, an impetus to do good. It can also be an excuse to be hateful, judgmental or violent. Vague generalities about religions, cultural elites, or any group are just that. I'd like to see an to end stereotyping and finger pointing. There are many fine people of faith or no religion at all. Unfortunately there are many who distort religious teachings for their own selfish ends, just like the kinds of "elites" you disdain.
I find that what Marx's declares still holds true especially for the religion and culture of the Red states. The Southern Baptist tenets have become very personal in that the believer has been personally saved. There really are no Christian-Judaic principles of the mainline Protestant churches to be found here but rather the of emphasis on the Old Testament, an eye for an eye type of ideology breeds a hostility to those seen as different, i.e., not our religion, race or region. But at the same time to personally be saved by Christ excuses or allows the costly, immoral conduct so prevalent in the region. The beliefs that Christ "saves" also saves one from responsibility for the resulting harm done. That is the opiate that so threatens the revered "old South."
Marx did not mean that religion made people passive. He meant that it kept people from seeing themselves as an oppressed class. You could certainly posit that radical Islam focuses outward what might otherwise become internal social unrest. Having external enemies, real or imagined, takes the heat off those in power.
The GOP exploits the innate but cognitively disonant belief that there is someone worse off, notwithstanding similarities in condition and circumstances. The perceived differences of the "others" are rationalized as resulting from personal failure or moral inferiority. One's own failings are rationalized as being caused by circumstances beyond one's control, such as a plant closing or an illness.
We need leaders who will not only speak the truth to, but act in the interests of all those left behind in our economy.
We need leaders who will not only speak the truth to, but act in the interests of all those left behind in our economy.
9
This evidence only demonstrates that the values held by traditional conservatives are losing ground in our society, both in Baltimore and in areas still electing Republicans. Nothing in this piece suggests to me that Republicans condone the behaviors cited in Muskogee any more than they criticize the behaviors on display in Baltimore. Rather, the piece seems to legitimize antisocial behavior in one place by pointing out that it occurs elsewhere too. That is not particularly enlightening nor does it do anything to advance the conversation as to how we work to eliminate these behaviors that we must all agree are antisocial.
3
No, he's not legitimizing antisocial behavior inn either place; he's de-legitimizing a politically ideological approach to the problem, which denies the responsibility of the Right to clean its own house.
No jon, that's not it at all. Reread the article carefully with an open mind.
Another regrettable theme in GOP propaganda is the plight of fatherless children. Yes, it is a legitimate plight. But all through history, politics and economics have combined to remove men from their responsibilities. War has been a great maker of widows and orphans. Glorious death or inglorious disablement have the same results. For example, in northern England, some towns were bereft of a whole generation of men. I suspect the US Civil War and the wars in Vietnam and Iraq were no respecters of family values.
12
The dismaying numbers presence in this article portray the increasing irrelevance of religion and politics in American society. Another way of stating that is that no one is paying attention to what ministers, priests, rabbis and politicians have to say.
It is this disconnect that to me is the most important cultural and societal shift underway. Our political and moral compasses are askew.
It is this disconnect that to me is the most important cultural and societal shift underway. Our political and moral compasses are askew.
7
Agree, but the people not paying attention include the same ministers, priests and politicians (haven't heard too much about erring rabbis but that may merely be because of sample size).
Because everything gets filtered through the lens of Red and Blue and religious fundamentalism, we cannot objectively analyze any of our current problems or trends. And so we don't plan for them, we don't create new paths to dealing with them. The worst among us demonize "the other" and the beat goes on more shrill then ever.
The one constant in any demographic changes or shift in mores, is the need to nurture our children, all our children, in safe and caring environments. The realities of modern trends require strong programs and protections for paid childcare leave, high quality childcare centers, quality public education in all neighborhoods, and a national full out effort to create good paying jobs across the land.
America needs a Marshall Plan that addresses the issues at hand without the fog of ideology and fundamentalism. Current gridlock and lack of long range planning is benefitting one group of people and the large corporations . That's why it remains in effect in spite of the damage it does the country.
Where our children are concerned, we get one chance to get it right. We are failing them whether they live in Red America or Blue American or towns with few or many churches. And a government in servitude to corporate money is not going to change that. KA
The one constant in any demographic changes or shift in mores, is the need to nurture our children, all our children, in safe and caring environments. The realities of modern trends require strong programs and protections for paid childcare leave, high quality childcare centers, quality public education in all neighborhoods, and a national full out effort to create good paying jobs across the land.
America needs a Marshall Plan that addresses the issues at hand without the fog of ideology and fundamentalism. Current gridlock and lack of long range planning is benefitting one group of people and the large corporations . That's why it remains in effect in spite of the damage it does the country.
Where our children are concerned, we get one chance to get it right. We are failing them whether they live in Red America or Blue American or towns with few or many churches. And a government in servitude to corporate money is not going to change that. KA
13
Can we begin by acknowledging the bias in regarding sex without marriage as a moral failing? It is a human - no, a species wide - natural act. All life forms engage in sexual behaviors. It is that males want to control female reproduction and have used religion, with its dubious claim to "morality", as the basis for this control through marriage.
Sex without marriage is not the end of moral behavior. There are many, far more important actions that have a stronger claim to morality that I would like to see discussed: humility, kindness, truthfulness, patience, peace, and generosity for starters. More compassion and less prideful carping on the "sins" of others would be a good start.
The people in both red and blue states who are poor received from their elected leaders: pride, lying, bellicosity, sowing discord, greed, envy, wrath, gluttony, lechery, and sloth (a do-nothing Congress). Many of the worse offenders are the very people preaching against the "sin" of sex without marriage. I say let them "look to the beam in their own eye first".
Sex without marriage is not the end of moral behavior. There are many, far more important actions that have a stronger claim to morality that I would like to see discussed: humility, kindness, truthfulness, patience, peace, and generosity for starters. More compassion and less prideful carping on the "sins" of others would be a good start.
The people in both red and blue states who are poor received from their elected leaders: pride, lying, bellicosity, sowing discord, greed, envy, wrath, gluttony, lechery, and sloth (a do-nothing Congress). Many of the worse offenders are the very people preaching against the "sin" of sex without marriage. I say let them "look to the beam in their own eye first".
48
I agree with much of this. I would like to add as a once-zealous Christian conservative that sex is just something that conservative Christians get really worked up about...or passionate about (pun intended). The sad thing is that "wait" is generally good advice, but the message stops there. No one wants to talk about the most interesting parts of sex - how not only body parts fit together but how the mind interacts with them. From this stems both the joy and the possible bitterness of human intimacy: to benefit most from sex, let it flow carefully and in a controlled manner, or it may end up controlling you. No, the church just says "wait" and "don't touch." I'm sorry, but that will no longer work. What the church calls "the world" is very much aware of our human desires, and sex sells everything from soup to nuts. Every fantasy can be found online. If the church cares about developing the best in human relations it must get over its squeamishness and risk offending the sensitive by actually describing what constitutes good sex and what constitutes bad sex. Joan Rivers once joked, "I blame my mother for my poor sex life. All she ever told me was, 'the man goes on top an the woman goes underneath.' And for the first three years I was married my husband and I slept in bunk beds." The church must do and say more.
As the old song of the 20s 'the rich get richer and the poor have children', a large proportion of whites have joined the blacks on that score. This reality is independent of sexual revolution, liberalism or conservatism its a given in societies with ever increasing inequities.
2
Brutally honest article and first class reporting. We can only wonder what will occur as these trends continue to combine with increased testing in schools and workplaces intensifying personality profiles for purposes of hiring quality employees--not to mention what will occur with the ever increasing advances in medical science and biology (all that has to do with genetics).
My belief is that first what will occur--and actually what has been occurring with regard to problems such as these--is the "economic cure": Constant attempts to restructure the economy, create jobs, etc. (the whole left wing right wing battle to find somehow the "sweet spot" to fix things without compromising core principles). But education capacities (intellect, emotional maturity) and workplace requirements will only intensify creating a premium on intellectual ability and high skill level driving a type of class warfare between those with capacity and those less capable until inevitably, with advances in biology, genetics, the question will become one of driving forward the genetic caliber of the population.
Of course this whole problem is being speeded up by a multipolar world of sophisticated economies jockeying for preeminence and problems such as overpopulation and environmental degradation. We are experiencing the stress of actually trying to decide what we are to become not only culturally but genetically as a human race.
My belief is that first what will occur--and actually what has been occurring with regard to problems such as these--is the "economic cure": Constant attempts to restructure the economy, create jobs, etc. (the whole left wing right wing battle to find somehow the "sweet spot" to fix things without compromising core principles). But education capacities (intellect, emotional maturity) and workplace requirements will only intensify creating a premium on intellectual ability and high skill level driving a type of class warfare between those with capacity and those less capable until inevitably, with advances in biology, genetics, the question will become one of driving forward the genetic caliber of the population.
Of course this whole problem is being speeded up by a multipolar world of sophisticated economies jockeying for preeminence and problems such as overpopulation and environmental degradation. We are experiencing the stress of actually trying to decide what we are to become not only culturally but genetically as a human race.
4
I appreciate this thoughtful expose of trends in the US by Mr. Edsall. It underscores the racist bias with mainstream America to portray these issues as a black community problem. As if the black community is one monolithic group solely composed of inner city people interacting with societal institutions like churchs, public schools, unemployment, food deserts, lack of recreational opportunities or gross neglect as evidenced by boarded up windows and disrepair.
There are many African Americans who live comfortable lives in middle or upper class communities as well as extremely affluent neighborhoods. Just as there are Caucasians, Hispanics & Asians who live in abject poverty. How many public schools are crumbling due to lack of investment across America? How many libraries are underfunded with communities becoming mere ghosttown shells of their former prosperous selfs? How many children grow up without any hope or spiritual guidance in broken homes who turn to substance abuse or promiscuity as an escape from their lives of desperation?
The issue is a pattern of neglect across the board from the highest levels of public office (i.e. GOP) on down to the quality of home life. If politicians like Mitt Romney are held up with admiration for becoming rich by stripping assets from local businesses then declaring bankruptcy w/o any regard for the carnage this leaves behind, why should children believe that marriage & working at a dead end job is still something to aspire to?
There are many African Americans who live comfortable lives in middle or upper class communities as well as extremely affluent neighborhoods. Just as there are Caucasians, Hispanics & Asians who live in abject poverty. How many public schools are crumbling due to lack of investment across America? How many libraries are underfunded with communities becoming mere ghosttown shells of their former prosperous selfs? How many children grow up without any hope or spiritual guidance in broken homes who turn to substance abuse or promiscuity as an escape from their lives of desperation?
The issue is a pattern of neglect across the board from the highest levels of public office (i.e. GOP) on down to the quality of home life. If politicians like Mitt Romney are held up with admiration for becoming rich by stripping assets from local businesses then declaring bankruptcy w/o any regard for the carnage this leaves behind, why should children believe that marriage & working at a dead end job is still something to aspire to?
29
The crisis in out of wedlock births is not a conservative or a liberal issue. It's an issue of civil society and the people who bear the brunt of fatherless families are children.
According to the website Single Mother Guide, children born to families with both parents experience ~13% poverty rate. ~40% of Children born to mother only as parent are born into poverty and rarely escape poverty. Black children suffer the most poverty in America.
Saying that whites in Muskogee are experiencing rising rates in single parent families, teen pregnancies and poverty does not change the dysfunction of black urban (non) families one iota.
The moral stigma for both races remains because the selfishness of the (non) parent, usually the sperm donor, is the cause of the child's struggle throughout life. Doesn't really matter if the sperm donor is black or white. (Non) fathers of either race think more of themselves than for the children they create. These are not honorable people.
This is not a political problem except for those who choose to make it a political problem.
This is a societal and moral problem. As a people, the more we rationalize pure self interest, the more we argue against stigmatizing destructive behavior that inflicts sorrow upon others, the more we become what we are becoming.
According to the website Single Mother Guide, children born to families with both parents experience ~13% poverty rate. ~40% of Children born to mother only as parent are born into poverty and rarely escape poverty. Black children suffer the most poverty in America.
Saying that whites in Muskogee are experiencing rising rates in single parent families, teen pregnancies and poverty does not change the dysfunction of black urban (non) families one iota.
The moral stigma for both races remains because the selfishness of the (non) parent, usually the sperm donor, is the cause of the child's struggle throughout life. Doesn't really matter if the sperm donor is black or white. (Non) fathers of either race think more of themselves than for the children they create. These are not honorable people.
This is not a political problem except for those who choose to make it a political problem.
This is a societal and moral problem. As a people, the more we rationalize pure self interest, the more we argue against stigmatizing destructive behavior that inflicts sorrow upon others, the more we become what we are becoming.
6
How about free contraception, abortion on demand, and sex education in the schools. Oh, forgot: conservatives are against doing anything that might actually mitigate the problem.
53
There are plenty of ways to obtain contraception. Once obtained, it has to be used. How is it that there are multiple ways to inhibit pregnancy and an explosion in out-of-wedlock (I know, an old-fashioned word at this point) births?
I agree that removing the stigma of morality away from the contraception debate is important. So is figuring out the reason that young girls want to have babies in lieu of focusing on education & attainment of employment which would lead them out of poverty. This is the cultural divide between the underclass and middle class values. The middle class focuses on planning for the future (including birth control.) Many middle class parents advocate abstinance because the thought of abortion is anathema to their belief system. When one is caught up in a cycle of poverty, there is a belief system that the government is expecting to pay for their lack of planning and middle class taxpayers are expected to pick up the tab for their sexual choice and lack of planning. Your attack against Conservatives just reinforces their argument that bleeding heart liberals are insensitive to their reinforcement of personal responsibility. Liberals need to hold people accountable for their lack of accountability and financial wrecklessness.
This article could be retitled as, "Southern Baptists are not effective in fostering the traditional values they espouse." But its premise is that the values themselves are very important. I certainly agree. So let's look to other models. (The theme of hypocritical Southern town is pretty old after all, e.g., In the Heat of the Night and To Kill a Mockingbird.)
Look west and specifically at Mormon communities. Mormonism can be criticized on some levels, but we should grant that they're not hypocrites about how they translate their values into daily family life. They practice what they preach, and the system works when judged by basic metrics of family stability and economic viability. Black churches in urban centers try to achieve some of this; they along with Catholic churches in poor communities would benefit from carefully benchmarking against the Mormons' program.
Look west and specifically at Mormon communities. Mormonism can be criticized on some levels, but we should grant that they're not hypocrites about how they translate their values into daily family life. They practice what they preach, and the system works when judged by basic metrics of family stability and economic viability. Black churches in urban centers try to achieve some of this; they along with Catholic churches in poor communities would benefit from carefully benchmarking against the Mormons' program.
4
The thinking evidenced in this "article" if you can call it that, is so deeply flawed and wrong. That some other journalists and the right wing, may claim the Democrats are the cause of problems in inner cities, that is so far beyond the point.
There is ample evidence that children raised by single teen-aged mothers fare far worse then any other group (skin color does not matter), and may never be able to be independent contributing members of society. To infer that a twelve year old white girl in Muskogee is getting pregnant because of a desire for cohabitation vs traditional marriage is simply ludicrous.
Take a lot at the images in film, television and most of all music videos, that equate unbridled sex and passion with success and happiness; not to mention what is available to children on the internet.
Maybe children spend one or two hours in their church weekly, contrast that to the 24/7 onslaught of media. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation in 2010, "... 8-18 year-olds devote an average of 7 hours and 38 minutes (7:38) to using entertainment media across a typical day (more than 53 hours a week)." http://kff.org/disparities-policy/press-release/daily-media-use-among-ch...
It is important to recognize who the real villains are here, and not let the media continue to divide our Nation into, black/white, blue/red, rich/poor, which only serves to promote the interests of the multi-national media companies.
There is ample evidence that children raised by single teen-aged mothers fare far worse then any other group (skin color does not matter), and may never be able to be independent contributing members of society. To infer that a twelve year old white girl in Muskogee is getting pregnant because of a desire for cohabitation vs traditional marriage is simply ludicrous.
Take a lot at the images in film, television and most of all music videos, that equate unbridled sex and passion with success and happiness; not to mention what is available to children on the internet.
Maybe children spend one or two hours in their church weekly, contrast that to the 24/7 onslaught of media. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation in 2010, "... 8-18 year-olds devote an average of 7 hours and 38 minutes (7:38) to using entertainment media across a typical day (more than 53 hours a week)." http://kff.org/disparities-policy/press-release/daily-media-use-among-ch...
It is important to recognize who the real villains are here, and not let the media continue to divide our Nation into, black/white, blue/red, rich/poor, which only serves to promote the interests of the multi-national media companies.
6
Even wealthy New England is not immune. The heroin epidemic there is only getting stronger and stronger, even as treatment centers have increased.
Our nation is ill. This isn't a red state or blue state thing and all the commentators still trying to blame the other party are missing the point.
Our nation is ill. This isn't a red state or blue state thing and all the commentators still trying to blame the other party are missing the point.
49
Point taken. But. The statistical proliferation of social pathologies that Mr. Edsall documents, and which many commenters have supplemented, pretty much screams that Red America is deeper in the doo-doo than Blue America is.
To argue otherwise is to engage in false equivalence.
To argue otherwise is to engage in false equivalence.
Could the increase in unwed births in these southern states be a result of lack of birth control and abortion availability? The result is a young mother with a lack of education and earning power raising children in poverty.
57
Great thanks to TBE. This article is a keeper. The GOP dogma that "it's all the fault of Democrats" serves no one well. Republicans turn a blind eye to the problems of poor Whites. Certainly, the stats show that cops kill more Black men than White men. But the complacency of GOP pols like Mike Pence has come back to haunt him. An opponent of needle exchange, his local AIDS epidemic can't be ignored and he' had to change his policy.
It reminds me of the denial of the Irish up through the 1980s: no drug problems, no abortion, no child abuse in Holy Ireland!?! And no cheating in business!!
It reminds me of the denial of the Irish up through the 1980s: no drug problems, no abortion, no child abuse in Holy Ireland!?! And no cheating in business!!
9
What I find extraordinary in this self-absorbed article is that lack of focus on the point of reproduction. It is children. Without them there is no survival of our species, and as other demographers have pointed out they are in a fragile balance in many countries where selective reproduction is allowed and encouraged. Even in Baltimore, researchers have pointed out the changes in families as a significant contributor to problems there. Go back and read your work one more time. Not a significant mention at any point to focus on children. It is all me, me, me. Shame on you then.
1
Because that was not the point of the piece. The point, or at least one of the points, is that the problems in Baltimore pointed to by conservative pundits as the fault of liberalism exists as much, if not more, in conservative/republican leaning areas of the country. Thus, as the piece points out, it is not a left vs. right problem. Both sides share the blame.
3
Excellent reality-based analysis. It is a reflection of the power of right-wing ideologues that most media either doesn't notice defects in the far-right narrative or ignores the facts. We need more of this.
It is not the moral defects or blacks or democrats that cause families to break up, it is the impoverishment of increasing numbers of the middle class. Baltimore shows how the rich, racists, and hypocrites blame the victims, not only absolving themselves of any responsibility, but providing more propaganda for the very rich to take ever more of the wealth away from the rest of us.
It is not the moral defects or blacks or democrats that cause families to break up, it is the impoverishment of increasing numbers of the middle class. Baltimore shows how the rich, racists, and hypocrites blame the victims, not only absolving themselves of any responsibility, but providing more propaganda for the very rich to take ever more of the wealth away from the rest of us.
3
With a few exceptions, Republicans never cared about the poor anywhere - rural or urban, black, white, brown, or yellow.
Democrats used to care about everyone who is poor, but then identity politics gave them myopia, focusing mostly on poor people of color in urban areas.
I spend most of my time in two blue states: New York and Massachusetts. Many small towns and cities in those states resemble Muskogee (and worse in many cases). The faces of the poor in those places are diverse, mostly black, white, and brown. There are few good jobs and rates of substance abuse and unwed motherhood are high. They get little media coverage. And no one in power cares.
At least the poor in large urban areas get noticed. They have some visibility. But poor people in rural areas and small towns and cities are the truly invisible downtrodden people in this country.
Democrats used to care about everyone who is poor, but then identity politics gave them myopia, focusing mostly on poor people of color in urban areas.
I spend most of my time in two blue states: New York and Massachusetts. Many small towns and cities in those states resemble Muskogee (and worse in many cases). The faces of the poor in those places are diverse, mostly black, white, and brown. There are few good jobs and rates of substance abuse and unwed motherhood are high. They get little media coverage. And no one in power cares.
At least the poor in large urban areas get noticed. They have some visibility. But poor people in rural areas and small towns and cities are the truly invisible downtrodden people in this country.
4
Strange. Nicholas Kristof has reported that Republicans spend both time and money on charitable activities than Democrats. How does that fact fit with your opinion?
Solution: Jobs and livable wages.
5
While striving nicely for balance, this essay argues that the left is responsible for Baltimore, despite the larger national economic culture within which every town and city must either thrive or fail. That economic culture has a corporate side, which is also increasingly "unmarried" to either location or employees, and a political side, where corporate power is married to a Republican party dominated by the very Southern Baptists whose daughters so often become mothers at 14. The conclusion that blame can be balanced across left and right is thus perverse. There is little corporate power leaning left, and no effective religious-political counter weight to the Southern Baptist-Ayn Randian Republican Frankenstein.
1
Bull's-eye. Brilliant. THANK you.
4
These poor white people seem to most associate with rich white people and vote against their best interests. Why? Because, like the poor white sharecroppers who associated themselves with the rich plantation owners rather than black sharecroppers, they engage in magical thinking. Their whiteness bestows some moral superiority that 'those black folk just don't have'.
26
Unmentioned are the other goals of the cowtown ayatollahs beyond restricting abortion.
The emphasis on abstinence only sex ed and making the procurement of contraceptives much harder by refusing to expand Medicaid and embrace the ACA.
Ignorance is expensive, particularly in the benighted old south.
And, particularly galling, when educated, productive blue state are paying for red state welfare queens.
The emphasis on abstinence only sex ed and making the procurement of contraceptives much harder by refusing to expand Medicaid and embrace the ACA.
Ignorance is expensive, particularly in the benighted old south.
And, particularly galling, when educated, productive blue state are paying for red state welfare queens.
6
The suggestions that these trends among whites are the result of moral decay or changing norms in culture ignores the biggest single cause of the breakdown of "traditional family values": Economic inequality. This isn't about what one believes, but what one can afford to believe in. The NYTime's Paul Krugman paints the picture clearly:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/opinion/paul-krugman-race-class-and-ne...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/04/opinion/paul-krugman-race-class-and-ne...
6
Thank you. In cities like Baltimore there used to be Little League and other sports for children to participate in without having to shell out a whole bunch of money. Does anyone realize how much it cost to get children in extra curricula activities? Those parents who can afford it bully for them, but in the vast amount of low income families there is no extra cash to pay for these things.
Everything boils down to money which allows access.
Everything boils down to money which allows access.
The Right's social agenda is just a smokescreen for Republican policy makers' real agenda: to protect the rich and accelerate the redistribution of wealth even more.
Rich Lowry, the most egregious of the spokespeople of the Right, accuses liberals of causing every problem, keeping the Fox News believers stirred up while Congress plots to take wealth from the poor and middle class and give it to corporations, Wall Streeters, and the Kochs and their ilk, under the radar of the ignorant.
Rich Lowry, the most egregious of the spokespeople of the Right, accuses liberals of causing every problem, keeping the Fox News believers stirred up while Congress plots to take wealth from the poor and middle class and give it to corporations, Wall Streeters, and the Kochs and their ilk, under the radar of the ignorant.
5
Psssssst. Very few are going to all those churches in Muskogee, those institutions are no longer relevant and attendance is falling without a parachute. Just as the fed, state and city leaders in Baltimore gather 'faith leaders' together to solve problems, I'm sure Muskogee would do the same. This is a failed policy structure no other industrialized country in the world follows and they have much better outcomes. When are we going to stop throwing good money thru Faith Based Initiatives, etc. into bad outcomes.
2
The industrialization of America has been a devastating blow to the working class. The Trans Pacific Partnership will be the death blow.
2
Tim,
I think you meant to say "de-industrialization". Although, there is also an ongoing process of industrialization: our economic system is turning intelligent humans gradually into unquestioning worker-robots -- hence the national fascination for zombies in the arts (or in what is left of them).
I think you meant to say "de-industrialization". Although, there is also an ongoing process of industrialization: our economic system is turning intelligent humans gradually into unquestioning worker-robots -- hence the national fascination for zombies in the arts (or in what is left of them).
1
This was the thesis of the book "Coming Apart" by Murray. One point I would add is that the internet and cheap cell phones/computers have degraded family values far more than acknowledged. Children now become self organized at far earlier ages, and the erosion of local values is accelerated by popular culture, which is continually piped into your home by facebook and hollywood while you are busy doing the dishes. Parents lost control over their children, their behavior and their values at least a decade earlier than in prior generations.
2
And yet somehow we have endless articles about the middle class and how they micro manage their children's lives to the point of oppression.
It isn't Hollywood or the Internet, it's children having children. It's parents who would buy themselves a ring or a pair of shoes before they think about putting the money away for their child's education. It's parents who come home at night and ignore the children they've produced; who don't know how their child is doing in school and don't care; who wold rather hang out with their BFF on their 500.00 iphone than take the person they created in the next room, seriously.
The middle class, what's left of it, seems to do fine parenting their children in the same television, internet, film, video game world. Could it be that they just thought about the child before they had it? Could it be the child has more value to them than their own fun?
Naw. Couldn't be that.
It isn't Hollywood or the Internet, it's children having children. It's parents who would buy themselves a ring or a pair of shoes before they think about putting the money away for their child's education. It's parents who come home at night and ignore the children they've produced; who don't know how their child is doing in school and don't care; who wold rather hang out with their BFF on their 500.00 iphone than take the person they created in the next room, seriously.
The middle class, what's left of it, seems to do fine parenting their children in the same television, internet, film, video game world. Could it be that they just thought about the child before they had it? Could it be the child has more value to them than their own fun?
Naw. Couldn't be that.
It could be argued that the liberal/progressive cultural change which the article discusses began in the Democratic controlled big cities and spread like a cancer to the red states. So,whose to blame?
What culture change are you talking about? Do you mean offshoring of jobs? Do you mean stagnant wages?
The Confederate South lost the Civil War, but won the Jim Crow peace.
Almost always, the face of poverty in America is that of a Black single mother. I would like to see a comprehensive study of White poverty in America. And not just in Appalachia.
12
Mr. Edsall: There are not words to describe the incalculable service in publishing this essay. It rips away the cover that the Right have thrown over the sins of their own poor and forgotten since time beyond measure. The Right have gained traction in the discussion of American public policy, especially since the watershed year of 1968. Richard Nixon, after winning the general election, shone the spotlight of "them vs. us" with his racist, class-based "moral majority" mythology. This cancer spread into the 1980's and beyond, Ronald Reagan stoking the flames of racial discontent. The entire oeuvre of the conservative movement has been the inherent moral degradation of African-Americans, their history, their culture, their everything. And, the Right rushed to point out, "aren't we different? better? pure? of far loftier mold? composed of the divine blessings which find their earthly perfection in the white race?" Now, however, we find that young white teens and young adults have fallen into the trap of "the human condition." Of course, their poverty, their drug use, their sexual promiscuity are not all their fault. That they shun individual initiative and the pull of their Bibles is not lost on the powers that drive the Right. And these poor young whites, especially in Red states, don't have the first clue that their "betters" don't care about them one whit. The Right blames Democrats, African-Americans, and President Obama for all of this country's ills. And it works.
11
This is a good op-ed, however it should be noted that the rate of violence is far lower in these white areas than in poor black areas.
Also conservatives have been talking about the moral decay beyond the urban black poor. Coming Apart, by Charles Murray is routinely cited by conservative policy makers and politicians. In fact I believe Jeb Bush has referenced it.
The problem is that conservative forces are little match for the power of Hollywood and cultural trend setters in NYC. These entities disseminate degradation among the masses while making it all look glamorous. Just look at how Beyoncé, Kim Kardashian & Jennifer Lopez dressed at this years Met. These are mothers that are leaving nothing to the imagination.
Also conservatives have been talking about the moral decay beyond the urban black poor. Coming Apart, by Charles Murray is routinely cited by conservative policy makers and politicians. In fact I believe Jeb Bush has referenced it.
The problem is that conservative forces are little match for the power of Hollywood and cultural trend setters in NYC. These entities disseminate degradation among the masses while making it all look glamorous. Just look at how Beyoncé, Kim Kardashian & Jennifer Lopez dressed at this years Met. These are mothers that are leaving nothing to the imagination.
1
I was explaining to a friend why James Madison may have been happy with the current polarization of our current politics. Because the two conflicting sides meant change was slow and meticulous. Democrats and Republicans can't help but believe that they know best and their policies would produce the ideal state. But in reality, I believe the answer is often somewhere in the middle.
One startling statistic indicates why poverty is such a problem in Baltimore: the city has lost 90 percent of its manufacturing jobs. That statistic probably has more to do with the problems in Baltimore than any values issue. If working class people can only get a poverty wage job flipping burgers, then they are going to live in poverty.
Instead of judging people who live in poverty, maybe we should be focusing on bringing back good paying blue collar jobs to places like Baltimore, instead of allowing them to be shipped to Texas, which uses tax abatements to steal jobs, or China, which has put more Americans in poverty than single parenthood ever did.
Instead of judging people who live in poverty, maybe we should be focusing on bringing back good paying blue collar jobs to places like Baltimore, instead of allowing them to be shipped to Texas, which uses tax abatements to steal jobs, or China, which has put more Americans in poverty than single parenthood ever did.
487
If Texas chooses to offer lucrative opportunities for companies to move there through tax abatement, lower cost of living, lower crime rates (maybe- not sure on this one) and wide open spaces then it can be an attractive offer.
The interesting counterpoint though is Texas is in a worse spot for teenage pregnancy, drugs, illegal immigration, moral decay that Baltimore. So your point may be better stated as a national problem with offshoring jobs/products than shipping them between States.
The interesting counterpoint though is Texas is in a worse spot for teenage pregnancy, drugs, illegal immigration, moral decay that Baltimore. So your point may be better stated as a national problem with offshoring jobs/products than shipping them between States.
I do not think anyone is "judging people" however, I would like to state that as an investor in properties, I would never think of investing in any property in Baltimore as long as they keep burning businesses down.
When people start to take pride in abiding laws, when they start cleaning up their own streets, business will come in but I doubt it will happen any time soon.
When the sides of different towns are criticized for being "elite" please notice that their properties are well kept and their towns full of mostly law abiding citizens who have put themselves out into the community and worked diligently at respecting what they own.
When people start to take pride in abiding laws, when they start cleaning up their own streets, business will come in but I doubt it will happen any time soon.
When the sides of different towns are criticized for being "elite" please notice that their properties are well kept and their towns full of mostly law abiding citizens who have put themselves out into the community and worked diligently at respecting what they own.
I agree with you - on a hopeful level. But how can we when manufacturing can be done so much cheaper elsewhere? A company - especially one with shareholders - can't be expected to keep jobs in Baltimore. That's just a sad fact.
When abortions are stopped and made illegal, then it stands to reason that the birth rate will go up especially among single women and out of wedlock couples. Since there are so many more of these two groups this emphasizes this out of wed lock birthrate trend.
Can we or should we require people in these situations to get married especially when it is so difficult for young people to find a good paying job to support a family? If couples are required to live together then there is a strong tendency towards spousal abuse. The Ozzie and Harriet view of the world is held by many red state Republicans who have their heads stuck in the sand They speak of freedom, but are mainly about social control. As with their backwards attitudes towards science they ignore trends within society which do not conform to their stereotypes.
Moralizing changes nothing. If they truly wanted to strengthen the family they Republicans and Tea partiers would support educational reforms such as providing interest free loans or free higher education for our young, higher minimum wages or nutritional support for children. Marriage in itself is only a ceremony. It guarantees nothing .
Can we or should we require people in these situations to get married especially when it is so difficult for young people to find a good paying job to support a family? If couples are required to live together then there is a strong tendency towards spousal abuse. The Ozzie and Harriet view of the world is held by many red state Republicans who have their heads stuck in the sand They speak of freedom, but are mainly about social control. As with their backwards attitudes towards science they ignore trends within society which do not conform to their stereotypes.
Moralizing changes nothing. If they truly wanted to strengthen the family they Republicans and Tea partiers would support educational reforms such as providing interest free loans or free higher education for our young, higher minimum wages or nutritional support for children. Marriage in itself is only a ceremony. It guarantees nothing .
22
Mr. Edsall, please do not interject facts and figures that run counter to people's deeply held prejudices. People's heads may explode, or at the very least, they'll ignore it entirely and go with the Fox News "answer for idiots" to explain away a complex problem.
43
It's not about poverty and hopelessness, it's about the devolution of society, across all racial, economic and political boundaries. The abject poverty and absence of hope during the Great Depression did not result in lawlessness, anti-social behavior or the disintegration of families because people then had a sense of personal responsibility and accountability for their actions. Individual responsibility has been replaced by a collective philosophy that allows people to do as they please, without restraint, because someone else will pay for it and clean up the mess. The growth of that collective philosophy has been fueled by ever-increasing government intrusion into our lives under the guise of "help." It's killing us instead.
4
"Increasing government intrusion" in the form of work projects helped relieve the suffering of poverty during the Depression.
3
Any positive government intrusion that occurred after the Great Depression, Zejee?
Certainly, the New Deal provided some palliative benefit, but continuing and expanding it long after it was no longer needed is what I am talking about.
I think this is a wonderful article, but one criticism, and then a prognostication. The criticism is that in his interpretation of the graph, the author is using "percent-changes in percentages," rather than just the percent difference. This is not what most people want from the data. For example, the rise in Hispanic unwed births is clearly the fastest -- both by the slope of the line and the difference in percentage rates -- a 30% difference, whereas whites only have about a 20% difference. Yet the "percent of percent" measure makes it look like white growth is almost twice as fast.
My prognostication is that these trends will be radicalizing in racial-political terms, on both left and right. On the left there is a growing commonality of social and economic experience across working class people of all races, and that this can be expected to grow multi-racial coalitions. But it will also grow its reflection on the right, radical white supremacist groups 'protecting' white values. An historic analogy would be the 1930s rise -- across this same bible belt -- of *both* the Southern Tenant Farmers Union and the Ku Klux Klan.
My prognostication is that these trends will be radicalizing in racial-political terms, on both left and right. On the left there is a growing commonality of social and economic experience across working class people of all races, and that this can be expected to grow multi-racial coalitions. But it will also grow its reflection on the right, radical white supremacist groups 'protecting' white values. An historic analogy would be the 1930s rise -- across this same bible belt -- of *both* the Southern Tenant Farmers Union and the Ku Klux Klan.
3
I respect Prof. Edsall immensely but I have a major concern with his data. I don't question its accuracy - I question its relevance.
The true focus shouldn't be whether children are being raised by married parents but whether they're being raised by two parents. I agree there has been a destigmitization of non-married parents living and raising children together. Those children still benefit from a two-person parenting structure whether or not the parents are married or biologically related to the children.
A 2009 Census survey reports that nationally, 18.5% of white children are raised in households with a single mother parent - not an unmarried couple but actually one person. That number is dramatically more for black children at 50.4%. These are the statistics people should and are talking about.
These statistics have undoubtedly changed since 2009 and will vary locally. But if you examine any city with a predominant race, that race with also, likely, predominate the negative social issue statistics. The difference is when you a have a predominantly black city where roughly half of its black children are being raised by a mother alone.
We can't insult or degrade people if we sincerely care about their well being and want to affect positive change. But we also have to be honest about problems if we want a better outcome. Two parents living together (married or not) are better for children than one - regardless of race.
The true focus shouldn't be whether children are being raised by married parents but whether they're being raised by two parents. I agree there has been a destigmitization of non-married parents living and raising children together. Those children still benefit from a two-person parenting structure whether or not the parents are married or biologically related to the children.
A 2009 Census survey reports that nationally, 18.5% of white children are raised in households with a single mother parent - not an unmarried couple but actually one person. That number is dramatically more for black children at 50.4%. These are the statistics people should and are talking about.
These statistics have undoubtedly changed since 2009 and will vary locally. But if you examine any city with a predominant race, that race with also, likely, predominate the negative social issue statistics. The difference is when you a have a predominantly black city where roughly half of its black children are being raised by a mother alone.
We can't insult or degrade people if we sincerely care about their well being and want to affect positive change. But we also have to be honest about problems if we want a better outcome. Two parents living together (married or not) are better for children than one - regardless of race.
4
Then we have to consider the reasons why it is more difficult for some families to stay together. The rate of imprisonment of black men, for example. The lack of living wage jobs, for example.
1
@Zejee: absolutely.
I would point readers to the Times report on the "missing black men". Based on the 2010 Census data, the Times shows that there's essentially a scarcity of black men in counties across the country with substantial black populations. Untimely deaths due to disease, drugs, and violence are combined with high rates of imprisonment for a ratio of something like 70 or 75 black men to every 100 black women. The authors suggest the possibility that because black men have a disproportionate amount of female partners to choose from, they may be more reluctant to choose one and settle down. I think this is a fascinating and troubling demographic trend. It shouldn't distract from the root cause of the problem: economic disparity.
I would point readers to the Times report on the "missing black men". Based on the 2010 Census data, the Times shows that there's essentially a scarcity of black men in counties across the country with substantial black populations. Untimely deaths due to disease, drugs, and violence are combined with high rates of imprisonment for a ratio of something like 70 or 75 black men to every 100 black women. The authors suggest the possibility that because black men have a disproportionate amount of female partners to choose from, they may be more reluctant to choose one and settle down. I think this is a fascinating and troubling demographic trend. It shouldn't distract from the root cause of the problem: economic disparity.
Cause and effect. Republicans rail at the effects, Democrats hope to alleviate those effects in some way. Republicans then rail at the Democrats for their efforts, mistakenly attributing to these efforts a notion of causality. But neither addresses the causes.
What do these people in Muskogee, in Baltimore do to make a living? Not much is available to them. What do they have to look forward to? In a most essential sense, the answer is Nothing.
In some complete misunderstanding of human social behavior, neither party has understood that self respect in a Capitalist economy comes from the employment that individuals find for themselves. This is central to self-definition. Manufacturing has palpable results, and a certain amount of individual pride emerges from seeing things made as a result of ones work day. The contrast with jobs in the sevice industries is profound - but this aspect of our political attitudes toward work is seldom explored. Almost complacently, our politicians have allowed manufacturing to leave the US and travel to places where wages are almost inhumanly low.
Now our President, who is, apparently bipolar in this regard, is pushing yet another hot-shot business school (yes, I know, the column is written by a business school professor, that is why I am saying this) scheme to widen our global reach in trade, and will result in more jobs leaving our shores.
Why can't these "P" people - professors and politicians - see this?
What do these people in Muskogee, in Baltimore do to make a living? Not much is available to them. What do they have to look forward to? In a most essential sense, the answer is Nothing.
In some complete misunderstanding of human social behavior, neither party has understood that self respect in a Capitalist economy comes from the employment that individuals find for themselves. This is central to self-definition. Manufacturing has palpable results, and a certain amount of individual pride emerges from seeing things made as a result of ones work day. The contrast with jobs in the sevice industries is profound - but this aspect of our political attitudes toward work is seldom explored. Almost complacently, our politicians have allowed manufacturing to leave the US and travel to places where wages are almost inhumanly low.
Now our President, who is, apparently bipolar in this regard, is pushing yet another hot-shot business school (yes, I know, the column is written by a business school professor, that is why I am saying this) scheme to widen our global reach in trade, and will result in more jobs leaving our shores.
Why can't these "P" people - professors and politicians - see this?
7
Democrats have worsened the effects, as Daniel Patrick Moynihan predicted long ago, by creating a culture of dependency. Not that Republicans have done any better, though.
Facts always seem to upstage conservative republican values, ideals and commentary.
Its no surprise that southern white republican conservatives endeared by their "values" would actually demonstrate in practice a far different reality.
In the confederate bubble, where republicans rule, hypocrisy always trumps reality. That's why racism,sexism, homophobia and generalized ignorance prevail.
Take a good look at the map. You see the social anchor that drags this country down at every turn.
Its no surprise that southern white republican conservatives endeared by their "values" would actually demonstrate in practice a far different reality.
In the confederate bubble, where republicans rule, hypocrisy always trumps reality. That's why racism,sexism, homophobia and generalized ignorance prevail.
Take a good look at the map. You see the social anchor that drags this country down at every turn.
13
The map actually shows which states have the largest black populations.
1
The map is misleading.
You could instead create a map that shows counties with Black populations above 30%, and it would look almost identical. Given that teenage pregnancy is highest among Blacks, it would also more directly show cause and effect.
You could instead create a map that shows counties with Black populations above 30%, and it would look almost identical. Given that teenage pregnancy is highest among Blacks, it would also more directly show cause and effect.
3
It is obvious that the US is fine with the drug problem or else the courts would be more harsh in sentencing. Drug use seems to be increasing even with all the money spent on the supposed drug war.
Legalize drugs and let those who want to take them have at it. It will probably be cheaper in the long run and the cops will not get in trouble for trying to arrest drug dealers.
Legalize drugs and let those who want to take them have at it. It will probably be cheaper in the long run and the cops will not get in trouble for trying to arrest drug dealers.
2
Thanks for reminding people that poverty and drugs are found in the heartland too. Too often the face of dead-end poverty is black with a city as a backdrop. The despair of the 'go no place' poor in the rural areas is scary. Crime and heavy duty drug use is everywhere. I know someone who moved to the city because it was safer. The only reason those people don't riot is because they are too spread out.
10
It may certainly "be asking too much of the political process to resolve conflicts like this", but it isn't too much to ask it to acknowledge that the conflicts exist or TRY to help. True family values would be reflected in day care support, adequate health insurance and numerous other policies that exist in other countries.
11
But white people were all created in God's divine image without the normal natural innate crippling corrupting conditions of the "Negro" nature. Such as ignorance, immorality, sloth, violence, criminality and a lust for illegal drugs, alcohol and white women.
How do you explain the fact that a majority of the poor baby momma and baby daddy living on welfare and poorly educated are white? While the proportion of blacks in that condition is higher there are 5x as many white people. And the current white proportion is identical to that of blacks when Moynihan dismissed and slandered the black family "as a tangled web of pathology that would benefit from a period of benign neglect.
How do you explain the fact that for decades more than twice as many whites are arrested for all categories of crimes as compared to blacks? More whites are arrested for each specific category of crime as well compared to blacks except for gambling and robbery.
But the majority of white society is only empathetic and supportive and compassionate for white family and individual pathology. The HIV/AIDS outbreak in Indiana is among rural small town white drug users, dealers and sex slave purveyors.
And the evidence from Baltimore and Maryland, where blacks and allegedly liberal progressive blacks rule, is that the same view prevails about the unique danger of the "Negro Problem." The White House frequently spews the same nonsense. MLK died dreaming of uniting by class instead of caste.
How do you explain the fact that a majority of the poor baby momma and baby daddy living on welfare and poorly educated are white? While the proportion of blacks in that condition is higher there are 5x as many white people. And the current white proportion is identical to that of blacks when Moynihan dismissed and slandered the black family "as a tangled web of pathology that would benefit from a period of benign neglect.
How do you explain the fact that for decades more than twice as many whites are arrested for all categories of crimes as compared to blacks? More whites are arrested for each specific category of crime as well compared to blacks except for gambling and robbery.
But the majority of white society is only empathetic and supportive and compassionate for white family and individual pathology. The HIV/AIDS outbreak in Indiana is among rural small town white drug users, dealers and sex slave purveyors.
And the evidence from Baltimore and Maryland, where blacks and allegedly liberal progressive blacks rule, is that the same view prevails about the unique danger of the "Negro Problem." The White House frequently spews the same nonsense. MLK died dreaming of uniting by class instead of caste.
3
I don't have the slighest idea what you're speaking Of.
1
Victor:
All your name lacks is an umlaut.
black mamba:
Don't forget watermelon.
The reason there are probably so many more whites living in such dystopian conditions, and all the rest, is that blacks only constitute 14.2% of our population. Yet it's claimed that non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the prison and jail population in 2009, while non-Hispanic whites were 34.2%.
You'd do a Texas ton better to argue WHY so many blacks are incarcerated in America, which doesn't have to do with either white women OR watermelon, but a racist focus on them by whites (and even blacks -- of the six Baltimore cops indicted in the death of Freddie Gray, three are black).
All your name lacks is an umlaut.
black mamba:
Don't forget watermelon.
The reason there are probably so many more whites living in such dystopian conditions, and all the rest, is that blacks only constitute 14.2% of our population. Yet it's claimed that non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the prison and jail population in 2009, while non-Hispanic whites were 34.2%.
You'd do a Texas ton better to argue WHY so many blacks are incarcerated in America, which doesn't have to do with either white women OR watermelon, but a racist focus on them by whites (and even blacks -- of the six Baltimore cops indicted in the death of Freddie Gray, three are black).
1
If these red states made it easy and cheap to obtain birth control it would go a long way to solving the problem of unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence, which is taught in these [mostly southern] states has proven to be ineffective. Admit that fact and move on.
Abstinence, which is taught in these [mostly southern] states has proven to be ineffective. Admit that fact and move on.
93
Condoms are available in every drug store and convenience store in America at a cost of $1 each. Anyone with a modicum of personal responsibility can protect themselves against unwanted pregnancy. Evidently, the Left finds holding anyone responsible for their own irresponsible behavior too much to ask.
Admit that fact and move on.
Admit that fact and move on.
3
The last time I checked, something as simple as a condom was available in just about every gas station restroom in the South. There are free clinics as well. But birth control must be USED to be effective, and many either just can't be bothered, or actually want a baby - something to love and love them. Of course, they quickly forget that a baby is an expensive inconvenience that is not always so loving!
When me became a "moral-neutral" nation, single motherhood soared. I'm sure few under the age of 70 remember Ingrid Bergman being banned for Hollywood for having twins out of wedlock (in fact, she was still married to another man, who was not the father of the twins). Today, various magazines would pay thousands of dollars for the photo rights of those twins and the movie contracts would flow in! If "everyone is doing it", then "everyone" WILL be doing it!
When me became a "moral-neutral" nation, single motherhood soared. I'm sure few under the age of 70 remember Ingrid Bergman being banned for Hollywood for having twins out of wedlock (in fact, she was still married to another man, who was not the father of the twins). Today, various magazines would pay thousands of dollars for the photo rights of those twins and the movie contracts would flow in! If "everyone is doing it", then "everyone" WILL be doing it!
Time after time, Mr Edsall makes the most important observations, thoroughly documented, in an honest and non-political way. These are views of a genius on paper (well, on the web). Even if the USA is having significant trouble, at least there is an ultra-sober seer whose insight shows the path toward getting a grip.
4
As I have explained in other comments, Edsall makes basic mistakes in statistical analysis, and therefore comes to some inaccurate conclusions.
Inadequate sex education or no sex education, reliance on "abstinence-only" ideology, defunding family planning programs, and denial of the social realities of poverty have led these rural families to despair. We need to focus on measuring, understanding, and reducing the rate of unintended pregnancy as a public health problem and a primary cause of the cycle of poverty. Simply asking women when they seek a pregnancy test whether they are planning to become pregnant would be a beginning. Helping them develop a meaningful plan and having access to reliable contraception would be the next steps. Stopping the pretense of abstinence ideology would be equally important because it distorts public policy.
7
If only all, or even most, of the pregnancies were 'unintended'.
Women have children they cannot afford because they are rewarded for it. Not just financially, in the form of welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and subsidized housing, but because they get attention from their peers, as if they have accomplished something in life.
That women continue to have children, when they cannot even support themselves, is unfortunate, but since this was occurring even when low skilled jobs paid a living wage, it has little to do with economic opportunities and everything to do with that whatever you reward, you will get more of.
That so many women choose this life is indeed costly to society, as the odds are great that they and their children will live lives of poverty and deprivation, forever a burden to society.
Since this is the life these hapless and irresponsible women knowingly chose, I will save all my sympathy for their innocent children.
Women have children they cannot afford because they are rewarded for it. Not just financially, in the form of welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and subsidized housing, but because they get attention from their peers, as if they have accomplished something in life.
That women continue to have children, when they cannot even support themselves, is unfortunate, but since this was occurring even when low skilled jobs paid a living wage, it has little to do with economic opportunities and everything to do with that whatever you reward, you will get more of.
That so many women choose this life is indeed costly to society, as the odds are great that they and their children will live lives of poverty and deprivation, forever a burden to society.
Since this is the life these hapless and irresponsible women knowingly chose, I will save all my sympathy for their innocent children.
Holy cow, Lon! If you're waiting for the purchase of the pregnancy test to initiate a conversation about family planning, it's a little late--the cow has left the barn!
Also, it's so tiring... this focus on the girls. Why not start some conversations with the young men about their family planning goals?
Also, it's so tiring... this focus on the girls. Why not start some conversations with the young men about their family planning goals?
4
There is an element missing here: Americans with college degrees do get married, and usually they wait to have children until after they are married. A significant part of the problem--and I do think it is a problem--could be solved by promoting better education for children of the less affluent. See the-education-solution.com please for details.
2
The inability or unwillingness of conservatives to look in the mirror remains an enormous societal problem; it precludes genuine debate and discussion of vitally important issues. But, hey, it's much easier to mock Baltimore and its ruling class (or Detroit, or...) for their shortcomings than to confront the reality that many people in small, rural areas in this country are hurt by decisions *their* ruling classes make for them.
Conservative disdain for urban citizens is well known, but what they really oppose is government assistance for *any* poor people. They accuse African-Americans and other minorities of willingly making choices that perpetuate their poverty, through their actions and their votes. And at the same time they pretend their own poor, vulnerable people live the kind of upstanding moral lives (and, it is often implied, would do better if DC stopped giving all of their money to minorities) that statistics and research clearly indicate they do not.
Perhaps if they made their contempt for their own poor people clearer that might open new political doors, by finally persuading poor, rural voters that even the godless, multicultural, evil "Democrat" Party would do more to help them escape poverty and lesser vulnerability than the GOP did in the recent past, does at present, or will ever do in the future. Despite the still-immense privilege of their skin color, there are struggling or worse white people in the US. They are worthy of receiving help, too.
Conservative disdain for urban citizens is well known, but what they really oppose is government assistance for *any* poor people. They accuse African-Americans and other minorities of willingly making choices that perpetuate their poverty, through their actions and their votes. And at the same time they pretend their own poor, vulnerable people live the kind of upstanding moral lives (and, it is often implied, would do better if DC stopped giving all of their money to minorities) that statistics and research clearly indicate they do not.
Perhaps if they made their contempt for their own poor people clearer that might open new political doors, by finally persuading poor, rural voters that even the godless, multicultural, evil "Democrat" Party would do more to help them escape poverty and lesser vulnerability than the GOP did in the recent past, does at present, or will ever do in the future. Despite the still-immense privilege of their skin color, there are struggling or worse white people in the US. They are worthy of receiving help, too.
10
Brilliant and eviscerating! Wall Street and the Pentagon can't stop spending other people's money. When you pour billions of dollars into something there is good chance something will come from it.
As for the "good" people of Muskogee: BIOLOGY comes fist.
As for the "good" people of Muskogee: BIOLOGY comes fist.
Thank you. Wonderful essay. I wish the people in the glass houses would quit throwing stones.
3
There's something missing in this analysis, I believe. Mention is made of a worldwide change in behavior having to do with moral strictures, values, etc., but no further explanation as to what might be fueling this. It may well be a major demographic transition, but is it not the international expansion of corporate power and control that might be at least partially behind these enormous changes? A sexual revolution must have antecedents that reflect more than just the decline of moral strictures, for this diminution surely had to begin with economic winds of change everywhere.
4
Bravo, Mr. Edsall...Bravo!
4
This is a simply fascinating column. What great research. While I knew about the high rates of unwed motherhood and other social challenges in red states, I didn't know the actual statistics. Your focus on Muskogee--and the difference between the idealized view of life and reality--is truly mind-bending.
But your column also tells me one thing I suspected but couldn't prove: that many conservatives live in a bubble, with an idealized view of the world around them along with a need to moralize and judge those with whom they differ politically.
This disconnect becomes more amazing when you compare the social challenges with the remedies at hand. Conservatives' fierce opposition to abortion seems like a desperate attempt to exert control over an area of life--the family--that they can simply not control. I wonder what they tell their flocks in Church on Sunday? I wonder who is attending these services--the scores of young women and men "living in sin"?
The problem I have with conservatives is their scorched earth policies to approaching social challenges. Instead of accepting reality, like progressives do, and trying to mitigate the factors driving poverty, drugs, and broken families, conservatives put it all on a moral plane while taking away any safety nets.
I wonder how Haggard would revise the lyrics to "Okie from Muskogee" today?
But your column also tells me one thing I suspected but couldn't prove: that many conservatives live in a bubble, with an idealized view of the world around them along with a need to moralize and judge those with whom they differ politically.
This disconnect becomes more amazing when you compare the social challenges with the remedies at hand. Conservatives' fierce opposition to abortion seems like a desperate attempt to exert control over an area of life--the family--that they can simply not control. I wonder what they tell their flocks in Church on Sunday? I wonder who is attending these services--the scores of young women and men "living in sin"?
The problem I have with conservatives is their scorched earth policies to approaching social challenges. Instead of accepting reality, like progressives do, and trying to mitigate the factors driving poverty, drugs, and broken families, conservatives put it all on a moral plane while taking away any safety nets.
I wonder how Haggard would revise the lyrics to "Okie from Muskogee" today?
67
As a religious conservative for many years, abortion was regularly in front of us in popular Christian media (which are very largely quite conservative), but not so often from the pulpit. Those with the media microphone proposed it as a terrible, horrible problem (overshadowing things like social justice). From the pews, one agreed it was a big problem because that was the "right" thing to believe. After all, one wanted to be on God's side, or else God would be angry with us. Surely He must be angry with us if we are killing babies. That was the logic. I've moved on from this simplistic view. But looking back it seems that the seeds were planted by charismatic, vocal, loud, and ubiquitous messages from popular Christian media and from conservative friends, not so much from the pulpit of churches. Then it grew into an ugly form of "us vs them." "We" had "gotten it right" and were ok with God. "They," on the other hand, were "out." "They" represented threats. Communication and dialogue with "them" were not actively discouraged but it was an alien concept.
You know not of which you speak! We don't live in a "bubble". Birth control is readily available - so is abortion whether or not we like it. Schools get extra money for children in needy neighborhoods - up to TWICE the amount spent on students in more prosperous neighborhood schools. Drugs? How does a parent fight against this when they have already been legalized in so many places? Can't afford pot? Set up a meth lab in the kitchen of the trailer!
In the past, we had Darwin's "survival of the fittest". Now, the "unfit" are kept alive, they reproduced - over and over and over again. They don't work and their children and grandchildren don't work, but they have Smart Phones.
There are no longer ANY consequences for bad behavior. If anything, it is often rewarded - free housing for that teenage father who is constantly reproducing but paying NO child support at all. He gets is since his parents have kicked him out of the house and he has no place to live - also no job.
It is human nature to do what one can get by with - no one enforcing speed limits, everyone speeds. We need to bring back consequences for behavior that is detrimental to ALL society, and in particular to the poor themselves.
We've always had poor people. The difference is that in the past, they were not drug addicts, did not have children out of wedlock, and they worked to the best of their ability.
In the past, we had Darwin's "survival of the fittest". Now, the "unfit" are kept alive, they reproduced - over and over and over again. They don't work and their children and grandchildren don't work, but they have Smart Phones.
There are no longer ANY consequences for bad behavior. If anything, it is often rewarded - free housing for that teenage father who is constantly reproducing but paying NO child support at all. He gets is since his parents have kicked him out of the house and he has no place to live - also no job.
It is human nature to do what one can get by with - no one enforcing speed limits, everyone speeds. We need to bring back consequences for behavior that is detrimental to ALL society, and in particular to the poor themselves.
We've always had poor people. The difference is that in the past, they were not drug addicts, did not have children out of wedlock, and they worked to the best of their ability.
Yes, how does it make sense to refuse birth control and then condemn a woman (especially a poor one) for wanting an abortion, and then castigating and her supposed lack of morals for having children? Surely, they don't expect adult human-beings to withhold having sex, that hasn't worked since Adam and Eve ate the apple. If one actually thought long and hard on what the republicans do and say, their heads would spin.
1
Is the agenda to punish children for picking a parent(s) who are inept and/or incompetent and/or corrupt? Those fetuses have a lot of gaul picking to be born to people who are not well educated with good jobs living in a community with high property taxes and an aggressive attitude towards excellence in education and then not becoming great students with a great future. I mean, the shame of it all.
Or perhaps we might consider that regardless of the sins [sic] and shortcomings of the parent(s), those transgressions should not be heaped upon the kids, even if the kids are totally guilty of picking the wrong parent(s).
Might we not forgive those kids and provide the necessary interventions, starting with pre-K, and extend the incredible good fortune we enjoy since we had the wisdom when we were fetuses to pick such successful parents.
Might we not lend a hand to a small person who otherwise may never even know what opportunities are available when the quality education and job opportunities not available in their community might be found elsewhere - with our assistance?
Or perhaps we might consider that regardless of the sins [sic] and shortcomings of the parent(s), those transgressions should not be heaped upon the kids, even if the kids are totally guilty of picking the wrong parent(s).
Might we not forgive those kids and provide the necessary interventions, starting with pre-K, and extend the incredible good fortune we enjoy since we had the wisdom when we were fetuses to pick such successful parents.
Might we not lend a hand to a small person who otherwise may never even know what opportunities are available when the quality education and job opportunities not available in their community might be found elsewhere - with our assistance?
8
The article omits the fact that many of these trends go hand-in-hand with growing poverty . All morality, in the end, is economic. With lack of positive future perspective the incentive to, say, stay in school, stay of drugs (which today means only use drugs occasionally) and postpone child bearing into later age appear smaller. The conservatives in this seem at best cynical. The young pregnant woman, who realizes a possible mistake is deprived of legal remediation why left alone in fending for herself and her kid. The cycle continues and create a new form of bondage holding poor people, black, white and brown. Our new racism is between the have and have not.
46
You had me Mr. Edsall until in the last paragraph you wrote that the "right willfully ignores the benefits and the left willfully ignores the costs." Since the article was about changing demographic trends in the western world and about the failure of Baptism and Republican legislation, among other factors, to stop the trend toward out of wedlock births and drug use among conservative whites in Red states, it seems pretty obvious to this reader that your effort to "balance" out your article with journalism's' "both sides are equally guilty" objectivity at article's end was completely unjustified this time around. An editor should have done you a favor and removed it. Otherwise, informative article.
11
The exact same "family value" States also lead the country with the highest rates of divorce. The divorce rate is so bad in Arkansas and Oklahoma that legislators including the ex. Governor Mike Huckabee have sponsored legislation that requires couples to go through marriage counseling prior to marriage. The states with the lowest divorce rates are ironically the most Liberal States, Massachusetts, New York, Minnesota, New Jersey, and this is not by a small percentage. For example, the divorce rate in Massachusetts is less than one half the divorce rate in Oklahoma. In Massachusetts, 78% of first marriages last, while in Oklahoma the number of first marriages that last is far less than 50%. If you take the divorce rate of first marriages of just the top ten states, which happen to also be the bluest states in the nation, that divorce rate is lower than what it was nationally in 1955. This begs the question who are the real "family value" States? After all, to borrow some country lyrics is divorce "the reason why God made Oklahoma"? Or maybe there is a reason why "all my Exes live in Texas".
159
The correlates for the data you present are an acceptance of science, education, comprehensive sex education in the schools, a decent economy, taxation that spreads the benefits more widely, expanded access to health care, access to contraception and abortion. Positively socialistic (!) but better outcomes.
To risk putting too much of a Marxist spin on this; poverty appears to be the common denominator. Fix income inequality and these other trends will be mitigated.
The reason the divorce rate is so low in the states you mention above is that most of the residents are highly educated and have married much later in life, but that's a lot of self selecting in terms of where jobs and opportunity are. So if you were to look at divorce based on socioeconomic status, the rates in all states would be more highly correlated...higher educated, affluent people in OK staying married at or near the same rate as that same cohort in MA.
1
It may be possible to determine whether economic problems cause changes in conventional morality or the reverse. Trends in marriage, sex and out of wedlock births are presumably long term, gradual trends. Economic changes have recently been sudden shocks. Unemployment jumped sharply after the banking scandal in 2008 for example.
If the economic shocks are followed by detectable increases in the social behaviors, then economics causes social behavior. It would be valuable to see if any of this analysis is possible.
The recent success in proving that Section 8 housing programs really do help reduce these problems suggests that it is possible.
Some solutions to the problems have been suggested by the Comedy Party. Go to YouTube and watch Comedy Party Platform (2 min 9 sec).
If the economic shocks are followed by detectable increases in the social behaviors, then economics causes social behavior. It would be valuable to see if any of this analysis is possible.
The recent success in proving that Section 8 housing programs really do help reduce these problems suggests that it is possible.
Some solutions to the problems have been suggested by the Comedy Party. Go to YouTube and watch Comedy Party Platform (2 min 9 sec).
2
I know David Brooks is busy on a book tour promoting his conservative driven character agenda, but do hope he has time to read how his book's theme is working in Muskogee.
169
Thomas Edsall is providing some of the best analysis of our social and political condition in the country today. Keep it up. We appreciate it.
10
Insofar as that old Republican trope about "evil Liberal Democrats" is concerned, Republicans have sat in the White House for 20 of the past 35 years. Where oh where are those Republicans constantly preaching about "Taking responsibility for one's actions?"
14
Aside from the debate on the blogosphere, there are significant differences. One is that Baltimore has our attention because of uncontrolled street demonstrtions and looting that suggest anarchy folks find threatening. That didn't happen in Muskogee-- or at least hasn't yet. Second is the care an selectivity this piece shows in dealing with numbers, bordering on statistical malpractice. Saying a rise from 70 to 73% means more than one from 2 to 4% distorts things. The second is a 50% rise while the first is less than 5%. Finally, worth noting that decreases in crime notwithstanding, there's still twice as much in Baltimore, which seems relevant
3
We still have to wait for the trends to play out. But the changes seem to implicate worsening economic conditions for the white working class population, in other words; income inequality. The black population was merely the "canary in the coal mine".
Whoever performed the statistical analysis is guilty of gross negligence. There is simply no excuse for how badly it was done, and unfortunately it colored the conclusions as well.
When I pointed out that red states have much higher rates of social pathology than blue states (the divorce rate in Texas is almost double that in MA, for example), in response to all the conservative hyper ventilating over Baltimore, the typical reply, racist to the core, was, "yeah, but there is no rioting involved."
10
Aside from Asians which make a tiny percent of the population, Non-Hispanic whites have the lowest divorce rate, and Massachusetts is 75% white non-Hispanic. Texas on the other hand is only 45% non-Hispanic white.
In other words, the reason is demographics, not politics.
In other words, the reason is demographics, not politics.
2
By that logic then Baltimore's problem is also demographic and not political because it has larger concentrations of minorities with high divorce rates.
But you would not know that listening to conservative America.
But you would not know that listening to conservative America.
1
The reference to Muskogee is misleading. In fact, the city is "purple", having voted for Gore in 2000 and Bush in 2004. Like Ferguson and North Charleston, the City of Muskogee is far more liberal than the surrounding county. And it is no coincidence that the minority population of each city is far greater than that of the surrounding county. When talking red and blue in these places, it is important not to confuse the city with the county, which this article does.
52
Thanks for pointing that out. Not surprised that Tom Edsall would omit facts, because people like him and Charles Blow constantly distort reality in order to promote their narrative and agenda.
1
Anyone who voted for Bush in 2004 is definitely right of center if not completely conservative!
1
I think the point of the column has to do with Muskogee being in a red state where the state offices are in the control of the GOP. But if you would rather view the issue as being defined by the size of the "minority" population, then I doubt any of these well-researched facts will change your views on anything.
3
The data shown in this article demonstrates that our upcoming elections are really not about liberal vs. conservative ideas and policies. The decline of working class America, both white and black has proceeded under Democratic and Republican administrations. Lurking not so far behind both parties are the ruling elites who finance elections and basically call the tune that their candidate dances to.
Liberal Bill Clinton opened the door for the bank collapse of 2008 and Conservative George Bush pushed us through. Liberal President Obama could have been a 21st century FDR and nationalized the banks and broke them up into smaller company's but instead followed a plan even more conservative than arch conservative Ronald Reagan when he effectively nationalized the savings and loan banks and prosecuted the culprits.
The real challenge for our immediate future is whether the media will pierce this false veil of so called social issues and force politicians to answer real questions about our future. If that doesn't happen the trends for both Baltimore and Muskogee will continue to spiral downward and we will loose what little is left of our democracy.
Liberal Bill Clinton opened the door for the bank collapse of 2008 and Conservative George Bush pushed us through. Liberal President Obama could have been a 21st century FDR and nationalized the banks and broke them up into smaller company's but instead followed a plan even more conservative than arch conservative Ronald Reagan when he effectively nationalized the savings and loan banks and prosecuted the culprits.
The real challenge for our immediate future is whether the media will pierce this false veil of so called social issues and force politicians to answer real questions about our future. If that doesn't happen the trends for both Baltimore and Muskogee will continue to spiral downward and we will loose what little is left of our democracy.
7
I'm not inclined to believe the premise of this article that the changing nature of family structures and morality is to blame for crime, drug use and poverty. I think living in an oligarchy is a more important factor. Laissez-faire capitalism is more responsible for the dysfunction in our society and in our families than anything else, and I am certain our political system, purchased by the oligarchs is in any position to change it.
275
Good Point. In a recent book, the Marriage Go Round, by Andrew Cherlin, his research showed that in Europe they do much more "cohabitation" than we do. The difference is that the governments in Europe support the cohabiting couples the same as married couples hence the cohabiting families tended to stay together. Maybe if we were a more liberal society with better support for cohabiting families and better work family balance things would improve for crime and poverty. Yesterday Save the Children.org came out with their annual State of Mothers and Children report. The US came in 33rd and last among developed countries. In 2006 the US was in the top ten. What Changed? Family Structure was probably no different in 2006 than today. Oh yea since 2006 the neoliberal oligarchs have gutted the economy. Its the jobs people!
5
Exactly. Both parents now have to have good jobs to afford a middle class lifestyle. Opportunities for the less educated and poor are few and far between, and programs like Head Start, unions, and community colleges have been cut systematically. Children are raised by strangers at day care, if you can even afford day care. Blaming liberal policies for these symptoms of Laissez-faire Capitalism is disingenuous.
1
Right, who can expect people to make responsible moral choices when we're subjected to Laissez-faire capitalism? When I act on my overwhelming urges to rape, pillage, and plunder, I do feel it is our capitalists society's fault, not mine.
Anyone who has done business in the supposedly moral southern red states is well acquainted with vast proliferation of nude dancing establishments that were never permitted in the so called liberal states. These are high class establishments frequented by the well off white population. We are also well acquainted with the hypocrisy of the fundamentalist church leaders and their sexual escapades with the women in their congregations. It is not at all surprising to see this bleeding down into every aspect of "conservative" life. What is always surprising is the extent to which they go to deny the existence of these open truths.
104
This is an intriguing argument; however, to ignore economics does a disservice to "cultural changes." The hollowing out of the middle class -- due to the declinne of unionization and the loss of middle class jobs -- must be pointed to as the cause of much of these ills. Baltimore and the Northeast were the first victims of a deindustrialization of America, and the loss of well-paying manufacturing jobs. We are seeing similar trends in the South, now, and thus, the resulting social problems. Blaming a loss of morality for these issues is rather silly -- idle people do bad things. We need strategies for replacing the middle class in this country by developing new engines for the economy.
23
Right, it's a lot easier to be moral, to get married, to avoid an abortion when you have a decent job. Why not do away with most forms of welfare (food stamps, etc.) and have the federal government promise everyone a decent job or paid training for such? Noe only would this forster morality, but it would greatly improve the economy. We are wasting our most important resource--our people.
2
"The right willfully ignores the benefits, and the left willfully ignores the costs, of what is, for better or worse, a world of radically diminished moral constraint." That's one of the best summary sentences I've ever seen.
18
I hope that it is not asking too much of the political process in this world of "radically diminished moral constraint," to resolve conflicts like these.
In truly moral states, constraint is but one factor. True morality goes well beyond constraints to the recognition of the value (not worth) of all people. A truly moral state does not urge its citizens to go to the mall in response to a crisis, does not base every decision on profitability, does not worship the free market, does not stand for growing economic inequality.
In a society in which everything becomes a commodity, in which upward mobility and long term goals seem impossible to achieve, is it any wonder that so many young people turn to those things that guarantee at least short-term pleasure and result in unplanned pregnancies?
I would argue that it is precisely the political process that is needed to resolve these problems, not just by infusing certain areas with cash, but by creating a community, a nation, that even the least powerful people can buy into. When we can see our political leaders as people of honor, not venal and greedy men and women more concerned with winning than with serving, then maybe we can convince our disenfranchised youth that there is something beyond immediate pleasure to strive for and that they have a stake in their own futures and that of their children.
Pie in the sky? Sure. But band-aids won't do the job if the real source of bleeding in not addressed.
In truly moral states, constraint is but one factor. True morality goes well beyond constraints to the recognition of the value (not worth) of all people. A truly moral state does not urge its citizens to go to the mall in response to a crisis, does not base every decision on profitability, does not worship the free market, does not stand for growing economic inequality.
In a society in which everything becomes a commodity, in which upward mobility and long term goals seem impossible to achieve, is it any wonder that so many young people turn to those things that guarantee at least short-term pleasure and result in unplanned pregnancies?
I would argue that it is precisely the political process that is needed to resolve these problems, not just by infusing certain areas with cash, but by creating a community, a nation, that even the least powerful people can buy into. When we can see our political leaders as people of honor, not venal and greedy men and women more concerned with winning than with serving, then maybe we can convince our disenfranchised youth that there is something beyond immediate pleasure to strive for and that they have a stake in their own futures and that of their children.
Pie in the sky? Sure. But band-aids won't do the job if the real source of bleeding in not addressed.
65
And maybe "moral constraint" is a good-times luxury that cannot hold the center in times of deprivation and despair. In short, a woefully inadequate basis for, by itself of as a primary organizing principle, constructing and maintaining healthy societies.
American culture today is far from a healthy society, and growing numbers cannot afford the luxury of "moral constraint". They have lives to live, as best they can. For many, that best is not so good.
American culture today is far from a healthy society, and growing numbers cannot afford the luxury of "moral constraint". They have lives to live, as best they can. For many, that best is not so good.
Interesting on point article. Culture of Poverty is neither red or blue, black or white, it just is and can be found throughout America. The article in the National section about the HIV outbreak among IV drug users in rural Southern Indiana is another example of this.
76
Tom, the magic bullet for addressing the out of wedlock birth phenomenon you describe remains contraception - which conservatives today go out of their way to oppose, even though its widespread embrace would alleviate many of the pressures described in your column.
For better or for worse, the sexual revolution occurred - and no amount of societal repression is likely to reverse it. We liberals accept this, and seek to rationally respond to it. Conservatives prefer to howl at the moon, while denying facts on the ground.
Riots happen in response to tensions that have been allowed to build up for too long; some of these tensions are internal, the result of inappropriate choices by individuals. But some clearly are not.
The reality is that people are far less likely to delay gratification if their expectations are that delay will not improve their chances for success. Hence, women who harbor an innate desire for children are not likely to wait for a marriage proposal if they believe that their financial future is problematic, at best, even if they find one. And thanks to the gutting of the American job base, In cities like Baltimore and Muskogee, this is precisely the case.
The reality is that until we replenish the American job base, we're not likely to make much headroom in discouraging Americans from having children before they can afford to support them. The urge to be parents within many Americans, both white and brown, is too strong to put off in perpetuity.
For better or for worse, the sexual revolution occurred - and no amount of societal repression is likely to reverse it. We liberals accept this, and seek to rationally respond to it. Conservatives prefer to howl at the moon, while denying facts on the ground.
Riots happen in response to tensions that have been allowed to build up for too long; some of these tensions are internal, the result of inappropriate choices by individuals. But some clearly are not.
The reality is that people are far less likely to delay gratification if their expectations are that delay will not improve their chances for success. Hence, women who harbor an innate desire for children are not likely to wait for a marriage proposal if they believe that their financial future is problematic, at best, even if they find one. And thanks to the gutting of the American job base, In cities like Baltimore and Muskogee, this is precisely the case.
The reality is that until we replenish the American job base, we're not likely to make much headroom in discouraging Americans from having children before they can afford to support them. The urge to be parents within many Americans, both white and brown, is too strong to put off in perpetuity.
271
I agree with most of what you write here but suspect that the issue is less about an innate desire to be a parent and more a result of simply not planning or considering even whether or not the individuals want to have children. When I worked a child and family therapist, I found that many of my clients from white, low-income, low educational attainment households saw pregnancy as inevitable, which was much they same way they viewed being beaten by boyfriend, brother, husband or father. Simply what happens. I worked in the public school system and was a wonder to my female clients because, at the time, I was single, lived alone, didn't have or want children, had never been beaten and had never seen a man beat a woman. My self-disclosure in these areas lead to discussions about options, making choices, and creating the future you want. For many of my clients, both male and female, black or white, they don't have a sense of the future. Most had not had their natural talents or interests nurtured, and when they did fantasize about their future selves they tended to imagine wildly improbable goals like basketball star, model or rapper. The bottom line for their families was the breakdown of families that resulted as union jobs, that didn't require higher education,that paid good wages and benefits disappeared from the community. No jobs, no money, no hope.
234
You contradict yourself. You say the magic bullet is "contraception," but then later admit that what drives these out-of-wedlock birthrates is unwillingness of women to wait for a marriage that will never materialize in order to have the children they want. You were right the second time.
2
"...women who harbor an innate desire for children are not likely to wait for a marriage proposal if they believe that their financial future is problematic, at best, even if they find one". Babies are being born out-of-wedlock because they are a ticket for free food, housing and medical care for the mother. The reality for girls is that if you get pregnant you can have your own apartment and never have to work.
2
"Those who seek to exploit the transformation of reproductive norms for short-term political gain are tearing at the social fabric. The right willfully ignores the benefits, and the left willfully ignores the costs, of what is, for better or worse, a world of radically diminished moral contraint. It may be asking too much of the political process to resolve conflicts like these."
An important essay Mr Edsall which points out some important trends. The poor white populations of towns and cities like Baltimore and Muskogee are both suffering and for many complex reasons, shifting demographics, etc. Having an impact on the problems of poor communities in every part of the country is low median household income, inadequate education, etc. In addition, as a chart points out, white teenage pregnancy in states largely Southern Baptist, are quite high.
"Conservative religions have proved powerless to halt unwed motherhood, cohabitation and other trends that defy traditional morality — in part because these trends reflect the limited authority of the old order . . . "
In short, poverty, teenage pregnancy, etc. are not Democratic problems or Republican problems, they are national problems. It is so easy for conservative pundits to blame the Democratic party, the liberal party, but it appears not so easy to examine the problem in detail.
An important essay Mr Edsall which points out some important trends. The poor white populations of towns and cities like Baltimore and Muskogee are both suffering and for many complex reasons, shifting demographics, etc. Having an impact on the problems of poor communities in every part of the country is low median household income, inadequate education, etc. In addition, as a chart points out, white teenage pregnancy in states largely Southern Baptist, are quite high.
"Conservative religions have proved powerless to halt unwed motherhood, cohabitation and other trends that defy traditional morality — in part because these trends reflect the limited authority of the old order . . . "
In short, poverty, teenage pregnancy, etc. are not Democratic problems or Republican problems, they are national problems. It is so easy for conservative pundits to blame the Democratic party, the liberal party, but it appears not so easy to examine the problem in detail.
137
The problem with a national out of wedlock birthrate of 43% is the *result* of the liberal Cultural Revolution of the 1960s that rejects traditional moral values and decency and common sense AND the liberal Welfare State that pays for the ability to basically be dumb, irresponsible and immoral.
No one has a right to have children if they cannot afford to pay for them. Forcing the taxpayers to do so is outrageous and reflects a **broken** social compact.
No one has a right to have children if they cannot afford to pay for them. Forcing the taxpayers to do so is outrageous and reflects a **broken** social compact.
4
THANK you, Mr. Edsall !
While " It may be asking too much of the political process to resolve conflicts like these ", it's not too much to demand that outlets such as the WSJ and the Faux Noise 24/7 miasma foghorn try to drive wedges amongst the populace only thinly disguised from overt racism.
A major function of the press is ' de-bunkery ' - which is why we pay a subscription to the NYTimes.
While " It may be asking too much of the political process to resolve conflicts like these ", it's not too much to demand that outlets such as the WSJ and the Faux Noise 24/7 miasma foghorn try to drive wedges amongst the populace only thinly disguised from overt racism.
A major function of the press is ' de-bunkery ' - which is why we pay a subscription to the NYTimes.
320
It's not racism (or hypocrisy) to condemn rioting and criminality. And observe: whites in Muskogee are not rioting. But fortunately, the subscription you pay to the Times is sparing you that uncomfortable comparison.
4
joseph - if the people in Muskogee had swapped places with the people in Baltimore in 1968, and had spent the last 47 years in Md. instead of Ok., we're not at all sure who would be rioting and who wouldn't be.
Want to trade places with Baltimoreans for the next 47 years and become part of a social experiment ?
Know anyone else who does ?
Want to trade places with Baltimoreans for the next 47 years and become part of a social experiment ?
Know anyone else who does ?
8
R. Law,
I recommend you keep reading other sources. Edsall's lack of understanding of how to use statistics is a travesty.
I recommend you keep reading other sources. Edsall's lack of understanding of how to use statistics is a travesty.
Oklahoma, home of Hobby Lobby and their holy war on contraception, has also sent James Inhofe to Washington so long that he has risen by seniority to chair the Senate Environment Committee. His goal is to take up the holy crusade against science, the environment and especially the threats of climate change.
For a state that endured the horrors of the human caused Dust Bowl, one might expect a little more circumspection about the environment. Instead, faced with long term drought, the state has permitted so much toxic oil well waste water injection that they are now experiencing hundreds of earthquakes annually.
This continues in a state among the most effected by recent drought conditions.
Given the apparent vulnerability of Oklahoma to climate change and increased soil evaporation, poverty, teen pregnancy and drug abuse may actually be the least of their problems down the road a bit.
But don't expect the holy war to end any time soon.
For a state that endured the horrors of the human caused Dust Bowl, one might expect a little more circumspection about the environment. Instead, faced with long term drought, the state has permitted so much toxic oil well waste water injection that they are now experiencing hundreds of earthquakes annually.
This continues in a state among the most effected by recent drought conditions.
Given the apparent vulnerability of Oklahoma to climate change and increased soil evaporation, poverty, teen pregnancy and drug abuse may actually be the least of their problems down the road a bit.
But don't expect the holy war to end any time soon.
454
Get your facts straight, or you will have no credibility. Hobby Lobby pays for a number of contraceptives, 16 I think. It had a problem with only four, the ones that it regarded (maybe incorrectly) as equivalent to abortion.
9
Hu-m-m, isn't he the same guy who brought a snowball in to Congress to "prove" that weather (what we experience every day) is the same as climate (the aggregate data over time) and therefore snow in the winter means that climate change cannot be taking place? Not the sharpest tool in the shed that one.
10
Cynical, why should Hobby Lobby even be in a position to pick and choose their employees' contraceptives? "Only four" doesn't cut it as an argument. Perhaps it is time to disconnect control over our health care from our employers and their personal religious views. Universal healthcare would resolve this "moral" dilemma.
13
This is a wonderful article just packed with actual facts. I'd love to see a lot more like it.
However, it does fall into the trap of discussing these changes in Republican terms.
Democratic/Progressive terms would be to ask, "Why do so many people now "thinks it’s advantageous" to live without marriage and raise children as single parents?"
This would be answered in terms of the economic changes in American which disadvantage traditional lives.
First, it is simply unaffordable for many, far too many. They can't imagine buying a home together when they can't even pay off their pre-marital loans. They can't live better together than apart. A family would be a huge burden, not a benefit or something natural to an available lifestyle.
Second, in the black community figures discussed here, those missing men are in jail, or were in jail and are now unemployable in jobs that would support a family. It is no wonder women don't marry them. The wonder would be if they did.
Third, the white community figures discussed here show that community is sinking into the drug use, court/rehab involvement, and long term poverty that make those men no more desireable or "advantageous" to single mothers.
We've made middle class life a shrinking phenomenon. So people live the other way. It is economic. It is all about growing poverty and hopelessness.
It isn't morals, except for the moral of the wealthy who drive us all into this, and point at other people, any other people, to be blamed.
However, it does fall into the trap of discussing these changes in Republican terms.
Democratic/Progressive terms would be to ask, "Why do so many people now "thinks it’s advantageous" to live without marriage and raise children as single parents?"
This would be answered in terms of the economic changes in American which disadvantage traditional lives.
First, it is simply unaffordable for many, far too many. They can't imagine buying a home together when they can't even pay off their pre-marital loans. They can't live better together than apart. A family would be a huge burden, not a benefit or something natural to an available lifestyle.
Second, in the black community figures discussed here, those missing men are in jail, or were in jail and are now unemployable in jobs that would support a family. It is no wonder women don't marry them. The wonder would be if they did.
Third, the white community figures discussed here show that community is sinking into the drug use, court/rehab involvement, and long term poverty that make those men no more desireable or "advantageous" to single mothers.
We've made middle class life a shrinking phenomenon. So people live the other way. It is economic. It is all about growing poverty and hopelessness.
It isn't morals, except for the moral of the wealthy who drive us all into this, and point at other people, any other people, to be blamed.
575
Yes, I agree excellent article but Edsall missed the extremely important economic link.
Cultural values are created by economic circumstances not the other way around which is something the right is completely incapable of seeing or accepting.
Cultural values are created by economic circumstances not the other way around which is something the right is completely incapable of seeing or accepting.
19
Mark, thanks for such a well thought out comment. It made me think about the connection between unfair laws, incarceration and its effect upon the breakdown of the traditional family. While those in positions of power and affluence point their fingers and sniff with contempt at the "moral degeneration," these same people fail to recognize and take responsibility for their complicity in the poverty epidemic. Focus on rebuilding a strong middle class like Bernie Sanders advocates instead of protecting the precious 1%and many of these issues would begin to be remediated. Instead, the status quo will continue to ridicule him as a "Socialist" whose ideas are out of touch with mainstream America. What a bunch of hogwash!
18
It comes down to jobs. The jobs in these communities have been outsourced due to globalization (read multinational profit consolidation and share price maximization), as in post industrial Baltimore, or increased agricultural mechanization. I see both where I live in a "post" agricultural area outside of Baltimore. Despair is not just a problem in the city. Too many unskilled workers are competing (or given up trying) for too few jobs. These changes have benefitted a few corporate leaders at the top and their shareholders. Short term gain by the banksters has put us all at risk.
15
The difference between Baltimore and Muskogee or the HIV epidemic in rural, white Indiana is riots. If the police shot unarmed white guys the way they shoot, strangle or beat up black guys, whites would be rioting too unless they were strung out on pain killers instead of meth.
425
More poor disenfranchised whites are killed each year than black people are. The difference is that the media has always loved the smell of black blood, because that is what sells.
13
America has a legal population of about 320 million and 20 million illegals. There are millions of police-public encounters every year. And out of all those tens of millions of encounters there are only about 350 police shootings a year. And the majority of those involve whites not blacks. And 98% are justified.
5
And let's not forget: when whites claim that they're beleaguered by government and assert their right to pick up arms and fend off that government, they are lauded by Fox News and their ilk. But if blacks were to make the same claim, as they did in the 1960s, they would be gunned down like animals in the street.
12