I have BACKED about 40 Kickstarter projects, ranging from less than $10 to several hundred. I bolded the word "backed" because it was made absolutely clear to me from the very first project that I was neither an investor nor a buyer. I was just impressed enough with an idea or prototype to "back" it. Risks are always fully disclosed at the bottom - and while almost all of the projects have been delivered a little late, they have all ultimately delivered something. Some of the projects have delivered exactly what was promised and I have been impressed with the results. Other projects were mediocre - the reality did not live up to the hype. And a few were downright disappointing. But as a fellow entrepreneur, I am sympathetic to the person who strives...who has an idea and actually wants to bring it to reality. I have often said to friends and colleagues that "Ideas are a dime a dozen...it's execution that matters." Kickstarter and other crowdfunding sites provide a method for people who cannot get conventional funding in today's tight financial environment to realize their creative vision. If you are living paycheck to paycheck, it's probably not a good idea to back Kickstarter projects. But if you have some extra capital (but not enough to become a true investor or venture capitalist), this is a way that you can become part of something - to pursue your own passion by helping somebody else pursue theirs. And for that, I think crowdfunding sites like KS should be applauded.
9
I've backed 3 kickstarter projects, each ranging between $250-$500. Two out of the three ended up being successful, but there were some delays. The third one I ended up calling my credit card company and let them know that I did not receive the product that I paid for (after waiting a year). It took 60 days for the CC company to investigate but recently I ended up getting my $499 back. Not sure how much KS and Amazon Payments get from taking the transaction, but they don't care about the project backers. Luckily my CC company backed me up... The KS project is still dragging on... Just 5-6 months ago the KS creator posted that they were shipping daily.... but no one was receiving anything. Just 2 weeks ago the KS creator posted an update (on our near the anniversary of the backing date) that everything was scrapped and he's revamping. If projects are delayed then they need to communicate better and not keep people in the dark. The KS creator of this project also created an external site to sell his "creation" to other people - after he had already taken $45K backers on KS, soaking more than just the KS backers. To me when you do something like this you are no longer a person trying to get started with a business, but a scammer. checkout https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lyonslabs/brewnanny-home-brew-monit... and brewnanny.com to see what I am talking about
1
There's something very peculiar about the post-millennial tech world: Individuals who so distrust the outside world that they would never consider answering their doorbell or phone unless they know who it is that is ringing are fine with only looking at pictures and reading descriptions before throwing money at a project being forwarded by people they do not know. Why is this? Is there a blind assumption of class equivalency with the project's creators that takes away all of their sense of caution? Is there a sense whimsy or a hipness factor involved in the act of Kickstarter sponsorship? Is it about bragging rights amongst entitled peers, who Kickstarted the most successful project? Whatever; Kickstarter is a gamble, and when one loses at gambling, particularly low-stakes gambling such as that in this particular instance, they should walk away, accept their loss, and look for the next opportunity - silently. You would think these sponsors had never before made a poor decision in their lives, regardless of how petty their losses may have been, and now that they actually have, they feel the need for a public pillorying of those who presented them with the opportunity to finally do so. They may be successful in their vocational lives, but they're remarkably childish in their Internet personae.
11
"Recently one backer ... doxxed Tambasco’s mother"
Can we have the articles in NYT written in English, please?
Can we have the articles in NYT written in English, please?
13
This is a well written, intelligent, interesting and amusing article that dug deep, painted vivid portraits of the human beings (and the one alien) involved, and presented all sides. Kudos to the writer, Gideon.
3
I signed up to fund a KS project. It was a programmable wall outlet. As the funding part neared its end, the 'entrepreneur' just disappeared.
It was either a fraud from the beginning or, perhaps, more than the person could accomplish. My vote is for fraud. That was the first and last KS for me.
It was either a fraud from the beginning or, perhaps, more than the person could accomplish. My vote is for fraud. That was the first and last KS for me.
An interesting piece, and worth the read for this line alone - "his fridge, packed with rows of baggied tuber, legume and flesh, resembles an evidence locker in an organ-theft investigation".
2
It's odd that the author sampled some shots but didn't comment on the machine or the taste. Was he sworn to secrecy?
1
I'm amazed at the way the tech sector seems to re-invent everything with none of the accumulated wisdom applied to existing institutions. Uber is an unregulated cab company; airbnb is an unregulated rental market that's terrible for other tenants... If this is how people react to a failed Kickstarter maybe they need to invent a kind of ... stock market.
12
Known as a 'Coffee-Pourer' on Wall Street in the 80s and 90s, I worked for a fine economist and powerful financier at a prestigious investment bank for many years. The time had come to learn about the power of the movers and shakers of the State Capital where I was born, and beyond the borders.
A friend, a rising star, who worked for an eminent managing consultant firm was to write of what is needed for the long-term prosperity of a company is to be found in its culture - the inner values, rites and heroes that strongly influence its success from top management to the administrative pool (on a note of levity, a corporate culture not to be confused with a 'cult' where an acquaintance managed to convince both himself, the beautiful and damned, that he came from another planet and part with their jewelry). This ended badly as to be expected.
It is not my business to give advice which I believe is crummy at best, nor sneer on the basis that a fool and his money are soon parted; a penny saved is a penny earned; or nothing ventured, nothing lost.
Some thoughts, however, come to mind in reading this fine article by Mr. Lewis-Kraus. We need our creators of new enterprises and ventures in this highly competitive world of ours. Kickstarter may have received a kick in the pants, but could recover with a grounded blend of corporate cultures.
Here's to a cup of decent coffee, which has been necessary to seal a powerful business deal on occasion. This much I know is true.
A friend, a rising star, who worked for an eminent managing consultant firm was to write of what is needed for the long-term prosperity of a company is to be found in its culture - the inner values, rites and heroes that strongly influence its success from top management to the administrative pool (on a note of levity, a corporate culture not to be confused with a 'cult' where an acquaintance managed to convince both himself, the beautiful and damned, that he came from another planet and part with their jewelry). This ended badly as to be expected.
It is not my business to give advice which I believe is crummy at best, nor sneer on the basis that a fool and his money are soon parted; a penny saved is a penny earned; or nothing ventured, nothing lost.
Some thoughts, however, come to mind in reading this fine article by Mr. Lewis-Kraus. We need our creators of new enterprises and ventures in this highly competitive world of ours. Kickstarter may have received a kick in the pants, but could recover with a grounded blend of corporate cultures.
Here's to a cup of decent coffee, which has been necessary to seal a powerful business deal on occasion. This much I know is true.
4
There are two strong takeaway messages from this article:
The entitled millennials have no consideration for what it takes to design and engineer a product in this age of "simple" off-shore manufacturing and hurdle upon hurdle put before designers by government regulations. Wake up people, many things are NOT easy, fast, or "instant". As a number of comments have mentioned, KS is not Amazon.
Secondly, when I read the section in the article talking about outside consultants saying that ZPM needed to run as a "real" start-up and go into stealth-mode, I got a bad taste in my mouth. This is the language of the MBA, likely a consultant that walked away with some big $$$$ for his/her "wisdom" and is now on to the next piece of road-kill from which to pick a bit a flesh ($) before moving on to yet another concern requiring their guidance. It's a sad state of affairs that this corporate management mentality is always claimed as a necessity to run a real business. God help the principles of ZPM if they lost a bunch of their capital to these consultants.
The entitled millennials have no consideration for what it takes to design and engineer a product in this age of "simple" off-shore manufacturing and hurdle upon hurdle put before designers by government regulations. Wake up people, many things are NOT easy, fast, or "instant". As a number of comments have mentioned, KS is not Amazon.
Secondly, when I read the section in the article talking about outside consultants saying that ZPM needed to run as a "real" start-up and go into stealth-mode, I got a bad taste in my mouth. This is the language of the MBA, likely a consultant that walked away with some big $$$$ for his/her "wisdom" and is now on to the next piece of road-kill from which to pick a bit a flesh ($) before moving on to yet another concern requiring their guidance. It's a sad state of affairs that this corporate management mentality is always claimed as a necessity to run a real business. God help the principles of ZPM if they lost a bunch of their capital to these consultants.
12
This is nonsense. I have a Krups machine that makes "commercial" grade espresso that I got for $8 at Goodwill. Buy German.
7
Imho this story is too sympathetic with the wannabe entrepreneurs and not critical enough of their actions. The space devoted to the failed sale to Buckman, sure an interesting guy but nonetheless a minor actor in this tale, should have been spend for shedding more light on the shady "pre order sales". Because that's the point where the ZPM guys crossed the line into real fraud. A pre order is something rather different from a Kickstarter funding. It's a legal, enforceable contract where a company promises to deliver a product, not a charity drive where contributors donate to the development of a product! The customers could reasonably expect that the machine was already fully developed, ready for manufacturing, and that the advanced cash would be used for funding the production. The ZPM owners defrauded those customers by pretending that they were ready to sell machines (they allegedly even showed stacks of boxes to be delivered soon), when in fact, as this story shows, after three years they evidently still don't even have a prototype that can prepare a satisfying cup of coffee without requiring manual calibration first.
And that fraud may be bigger than $ 230k. According to comments at Reddit, there seem to be at least 1582 pre order customers, having paid between $ 379 and $ 560 (including delivery!) for products never received. That indicates $ 600k or more defrauded. The author should have looked into this much harder. And also into whether there is bankruptcy fraud!
And that fraud may be bigger than $ 230k. According to comments at Reddit, there seem to be at least 1582 pre order customers, having paid between $ 379 and $ 560 (including delivery!) for products never received. That indicates $ 600k or more defrauded. The author should have looked into this much harder. And also into whether there is bankruptcy fraud!
13
I don't know if it is legally fraud, but it is suspicious activity. The author seems to discount that they were going to pocket the proceeds from a sale to Buckman, but it sounds like that's exactly what they were going to do had Buckman been foolish enough to assume all their pre-order debts.
I'm not sure you understand how Kickstarter works. Everyone who backs a project is essentially "pre-ordering" a product. This is not a donation; the idea is that you help get a project off the ground and are then rewarded with the "first fruits" of that project.
2
I agree. I also believe that the author misunderstands the requirements for a legal action based on fraud. He says that state AGs would need evidence of "actual fraud", as if there is a requirement of intending to take money for nothing. It is probably criminal fraud, and certainly civil fraud, to make a misrepresentation about the availability of a product to get money from a customer or investor, even if you intend to deliver the product. This type of fraud is very familiar to District Attorneys and Attorney Generals.
The more interesting question to me, however, is Kickstarter's role in the preserving the priority of original backers. Kickstarter cannot prevent production problems, but the terms of participation should require that the funding recipients do nothing to reduce the priority of "backers" over later purchasers or investors. If a Kickstarted company wants angels, they should have to buy out the original "backers" before the angels can have priority.
The more interesting question to me, however, is Kickstarter's role in the preserving the priority of original backers. Kickstarter cannot prevent production problems, but the terms of participation should require that the funding recipients do nothing to reduce the priority of "backers" over later purchasers or investors. If a Kickstarted company wants angels, they should have to buy out the original "backers" before the angels can have priority.
1
great piece, gideon!
1
Something not mentioned here is that the irate funders, who contributed a couple of hundred dollars each, seem to be acting as if they contributed $340,000. At least that is the price tag of their resentment.
Another observation - the irate funders act a lot like wealthy conservatives who accuse food stamp recipients of "living the easy life". There's a kneejerk assumption that the ZPM people are just Kickstarter welfare queens. Where does that reservoir of resentment spring from?
Another observation - the irate funders act a lot like wealthy conservatives who accuse food stamp recipients of "living the easy life". There's a kneejerk assumption that the ZPM people are just Kickstarter welfare queens. Where does that reservoir of resentment spring from?
5
I think all these people are cranky because they couldn't have their coffee.
I'm neither an investor nor a gambler (same thing, really), but as I understand it, you don't invest or gamble if you can't afford to lose your whole pot. This means emotionally as well as financially; if you're going to go crazy because your bet fell through, you can't afford it. The supporters who can't let go of their loss to ZPM shouldn't have signed on in the first place.
I can't speak to the ethics of ZPM's founders; I don't know enough. I will say that the "love" in their farewell message is about as meaningful as a Christmas card from a bank; no emotion has been felt. But that's business; it's all about making money. To expect otherwise is naive.
I'm neither an investor nor a gambler (same thing, really), but as I understand it, you don't invest or gamble if you can't afford to lose your whole pot. This means emotionally as well as financially; if you're going to go crazy because your bet fell through, you can't afford it. The supporters who can't let go of their loss to ZPM shouldn't have signed on in the first place.
I can't speak to the ethics of ZPM's founders; I don't know enough. I will say that the "love" in their farewell message is about as meaningful as a Christmas card from a bank; no emotion has been felt. But that's business; it's all about making money. To expect otherwise is naive.
11
I invite Lewis-Kraus to write about "the quilled" intelligence of Charlie Corry and his Kickstarter project, the iExpander--an enhanced battery, camera, and memory case for the iPhone 4. As a backer, I'd love to have an x-ray of that train wreck, which is still posting updates (simply to meet Kickstarter's terms, I believe). I've learned my lesson, though. Now I restrict my donations to saving African elephants.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/108290897/iexpander-an-expansion-de...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/108290897/iexpander-an-expansion-de...
1
I've been reading about the riots in Baltimore and the things that lead up to it (even before Freddie Gray's murder) and then read this and was struck by the fact that we really do live in two totally separate Americas.
I hope the Ian Woodhouses in the world get the espresso machines they so richly deserve and never have to endure such a terrible ordeal again.
I hope the Ian Woodhouses in the world get the espresso machines they so richly deserve and never have to endure such a terrible ordeal again.
13
I am concerned that the product I help fund (TrackR bravo Bluetooth lost item finder) last year with anticipated delivery January, but still not delivered, is still being advertised on Facebook as available for sale. This was not the first TrackR branded unit on the market, just the latest. Comments on the Facebook post suggest there are many more like me who have not quite given up. The latest communication indicates they are shipping, but that was the story a month ago as well. So I suggest that even "sure things" being funded are not. The discounted subscriber price is not worth it in the end.
While I wouldn't wish for Kickstarter to go away, I think it (and similar sites) have made it all too easy for people to post pleas for funds without feeling as accountable to their donors than if they had to personally ask each person for the money. Four years ago, my husband contributed to his niece her group's CD project - and not only no CD but we only get secondhand news as to what has (or more accurately, not happened) to the project. I think too many people treat the money they get as free money and not really think about the consequences if they fail to deliver.
At the same time, these websites get a percentage of the money raised so they have a role in helping to hold the recipients accountable.
At the same time, these websites get a percentage of the money raised so they have a role in helping to hold the recipients accountable.
2
We all know going in that if a Kickstarter project isn't fully funded then we don't get the perks. That's part of why it works. If you are worried enough about not getting the perk, then you may give more. If you can't or won't, then it's not the aspiring business-owner's fault. This seems obvious to me.
I feel like Portnoy's Complaint just got amplified a million times(!) although here it's in reaction to nothing remotely personal. As it is in "Women Turn Tables On Online Harrassers" under "Noted", in this weekend's Styles Section.
I feel like Portnoy's Complaint just got amplified a million times(!) although here it's in reaction to nothing remotely personal. As it is in "Women Turn Tables On Online Harrassers" under "Noted", in this weekend's Styles Section.
1
If it's not fully funded then they don't get to keep your money.
Why don't people understand that when you back a KS project, you are NEITHER an investor NOR buying product?
You are just giving money to some "guy/gal/people" who says he/she/they want to do "something." If by some chance they succeed, they will give you a "reward" for helping them bring their "dream" alive...
How hard is that to understand???
You are just giving money to some "guy/gal/people" who says he/she/they want to do "something." If by some chance they succeed, they will give you a "reward" for helping them bring their "dream" alive...
How hard is that to understand???
8
It's made harder by the fact when you read the promotions they spend a lot of time telling you about the rewards, and they often have very elaborate reward hierarchies.
RainyDayInterns
While you raise a valid point, perhaps we should simmer down and reconsider when purchasing any product, or becoming an investor in a bold endeavor. One could coast along on the philosophy of: 'Nothing ventured, Nothing lost', or throw one's heavenly pennies into the golden pot and become a happy camper. True, I have yet to invest in a cell phone but this KS project hardly smells of fraud.
For this reader, it is a useful reminder and warning as to how the consumer or investor wants to spend or make some added income. We often hear of the Brooklyn Bridge which is about to be sold again tomorrow.
It reminds me of an encounter with a romantically inclined professional gambler who asked years ago whether I wanted to invest $5000 in vinyl music records on the basis that kids were still buying them. He had a contract in hand for signature, and I politely declined to sign. Romance and economics rarely walk well hand-in-hand.
Recently I read that these records were being purchased again, and I hope that this enterprising person's dream finally came true, without a trail of broken hearts in his path. If you have given your heart away and funds as well, you are going to hear 'Smell the coffee and wake up!'
In the meantime, the word 'Decent' at the end of this article has a pleasant aroma to it, while looking forward to reading the reviews on the above.
While you raise a valid point, perhaps we should simmer down and reconsider when purchasing any product, or becoming an investor in a bold endeavor. One could coast along on the philosophy of: 'Nothing ventured, Nothing lost', or throw one's heavenly pennies into the golden pot and become a happy camper. True, I have yet to invest in a cell phone but this KS project hardly smells of fraud.
For this reader, it is a useful reminder and warning as to how the consumer or investor wants to spend or make some added income. We often hear of the Brooklyn Bridge which is about to be sold again tomorrow.
It reminds me of an encounter with a romantically inclined professional gambler who asked years ago whether I wanted to invest $5000 in vinyl music records on the basis that kids were still buying them. He had a contract in hand for signature, and I politely declined to sign. Romance and economics rarely walk well hand-in-hand.
Recently I read that these records were being purchased again, and I hope that this enterprising person's dream finally came true, without a trail of broken hearts in his path. If you have given your heart away and funds as well, you are going to hear 'Smell the coffee and wake up!'
In the meantime, the word 'Decent' at the end of this article has a pleasant aroma to it, while looking forward to reading the reviews on the above.
1
The most obvious conclusion to me is that when they reached their goal of $20k, they should just stop right there. Don't bite more than you can chew. When it is overfunded by about 1800% in this case, the small initial plan just went out of the window and they were essentially flying blind. THAT was not good.
Kickstarter and its likes make overfunding a virtue. For them it is, because they are taking a cut of the total, so it is the more the merrier. For the people funding the project and the founders themselves, not necessarily. Here lies a major conflict of interest IMO.
As a KS funder for a few successful and some not so successful projects, there is only one for me that is an unqualified success: the Veronica Mars movie. And that is coming from seasoned veterans.
Kickstarter and its likes make overfunding a virtue. For them it is, because they are taking a cut of the total, so it is the more the merrier. For the people funding the project and the founders themselves, not necessarily. Here lies a major conflict of interest IMO.
As a KS funder for a few successful and some not so successful projects, there is only one for me that is an unqualified success: the Veronica Mars movie. And that is coming from seasoned veterans.
2
I've been a patron in small scale art & music (and one video game) projects since before there was an internet, and once there was an internet, well before kickstarter. Usually in the range of $100-200 (occasionally more). It's a donation. In the case of music projects it's to established small acts that I like, and I can be fairly confident that I'll like the output-- I could buy a dozen or two CDs from new acts and maybe or maybe not like them, or I can pay the same to get one (and sometimes an extra perk, like free admission to shows) that I'm more likely to enjoy. It's an easy decision, and it's very much a donation. As many have already noted (and was in the article) manufacturing something complex is a lot harder, and doing quantities of a few thousand inexpensively is really hard-- not enough for real manufacturing setup, and more than you can do in the basement. I've pledged to a few kickstarter manufacturing campaigns when it looked like they had the ability to deliver, but none made their thresholds for funding.
2
He "grew up in St. Petersburg, and moved to the US at age 5"? Did he go back sometime to grow up? The article doesn't say.
4
The maker movement is a nice social phenomenon; it does not change the reality of product development, Crowd-sourcing is another nice social phenomenon; it does not change the fundamentals of investing.
My only experience with crowd-sourcing was a $35 "investment" in the Tesla museum--see http://www.teslasciencecenter.org/ . For that, I got a "Tesla > Edison" bumper sticker and a small emotional stake in the ongoing attempt to renovate Telsa's Wardenclyffe site. This was a lark for me, so the amusement value was well in excess of the $35 stake. (It happens that the bumper sticker arrived late because, hey, it turns out making lots of units of something is challenging.)
Anyone who thinks of dollars put into an effort like ZPM Expresso as an investment the way a share of a publicly traded company or an equity postion in a startup is an investment is deluded. No, you don't get a 10-K form and no, the creators are not beholden to review their business plan with you. There is risk and there may be fraudsters out there--I don't believe that's the case with ZPM--and it's up to you to sniff that out before you invest in what is, at bottom, a social phenomenon that could might you an emotional payoff. And, if you're lucky, a gadget.
My only experience with crowd-sourcing was a $35 "investment" in the Tesla museum--see http://www.teslasciencecenter.org/ . For that, I got a "Tesla > Edison" bumper sticker and a small emotional stake in the ongoing attempt to renovate Telsa's Wardenclyffe site. This was a lark for me, so the amusement value was well in excess of the $35 stake. (It happens that the bumper sticker arrived late because, hey, it turns out making lots of units of something is challenging.)
Anyone who thinks of dollars put into an effort like ZPM Expresso as an investment the way a share of a publicly traded company or an equity postion in a startup is an investment is deluded. No, you don't get a 10-K form and no, the creators are not beholden to review their business plan with you. There is risk and there may be fraudsters out there--I don't believe that's the case with ZPM--and it's up to you to sniff that out before you invest in what is, at bottom, a social phenomenon that could might you an emotional payoff. And, if you're lucky, a gadget.
1
What is the basis for the author's conclusion that they were "well-intentioned but clumsy," and the implication that they lost most of the money because "they serially trusted and paid the wrong people for ineffective help"? Did Lewis-Kraus review their financial records? Does he know how much they paid themselves? If they took meager salaries, I would be much more likely to conclude that they were simply clumsy rather than greedy.
13
The fundamental clumsiness was not appreciating the diseconomy of scale that comes from going from workshop manufacture to micro-scale mass production. Lots of crowdfunding projects have made that mistake. Had they limited their pledges and made 50 machines, they'd have been more likely to succeed. Of course, that would have disappointed those who missed out, but it's better than disappointing everyone.
Pledges for tangible goods often run into trouble at the final shipping stage: getting 1000 finished items to 1000 customers is quite different from dispatching 100 of them.
Crowdfunding needs better knowledge-sharing: individual projects are too often seen as special snowflakes and the people behind them make the same mistakes over and over again.
Pledges for tangible goods often run into trouble at the final shipping stage: getting 1000 finished items to 1000 customers is quite different from dispatching 100 of them.
Crowdfunding needs better knowledge-sharing: individual projects are too often seen as special snowflakes and the people behind them make the same mistakes over and over again.
3
The Emperor's new clothes. The internet has levelled the playing field, sort of like a tsunami.
5
All involved need to gain some perspective. To the founders: business ventures fail. Grow up and stop complaining about people being mean to you. Be grateful that hurt feelings are all you have suffered -- maybe some hurt pride. Accept that we all fail far more than we succeed and stop whining.
To the backers, who seem to have confused themselves with investors. You took a chance and it didn't work out. Yes it was a good product idea, but if you want to be an investor, rather than a fool (without doubt, sometimes one is a synonym for the other). Same message as the one above, with the addition that you should consider any future "investment" in a crowd-funded venture as a gift.
To the backers, who seem to have confused themselves with investors. You took a chance and it didn't work out. Yes it was a good product idea, but if you want to be an investor, rather than a fool (without doubt, sometimes one is a synonym for the other). Same message as the one above, with the addition that you should consider any future "investment" in a crowd-funded venture as a gift.
17
Call me old-fashioned but I prefer regulated banking. Anyone participating in crowdfunding would be better off taking their money to a casino.
11
mjb
Greetings to Toronto from another old-fashioned soul who is trying to assess with a few others in my age group how to enjoy our golden years in comfort. 'Regulated Banking' in America is making some of us edgy these days, and one man from India placed his life savings in a box under his bed which were eaten by termites. 'Where to Go' is becoming a recurring question and at times, the Bank of Monte Carlo is mentioned, along with the ponies at Belmont.
Be as it may, Crowdfunding is here to stay, and while the road may be bumpy as mentioned here, it promises to grow in time with enterprising and experienced corporate persons with an acute sense of responsibility, and a view to long-term ventures and profit.
Greetings to Toronto from another old-fashioned soul who is trying to assess with a few others in my age group how to enjoy our golden years in comfort. 'Regulated Banking' in America is making some of us edgy these days, and one man from India placed his life savings in a box under his bed which were eaten by termites. 'Where to Go' is becoming a recurring question and at times, the Bank of Monte Carlo is mentioned, along with the ponies at Belmont.
Be as it may, Crowdfunding is here to stay, and while the road may be bumpy as mentioned here, it promises to grow in time with enterprising and experienced corporate persons with an acute sense of responsibility, and a view to long-term ventures and profit.
This sounds like the perfect time to invoke that most-valuable life skill: walk away.
13
So much for all the hype about crowdfunding. Unless you're putting money into a local business that you can actually pay a visit to, there's no way to know what the folks on the receiving end are doing with your contribution. There's not sufficient oversight of crowdfunding. And, as a result, the risks are high and basically unmanageable. Most fundamental rule for anyone wanting to be a funder: Be 100% prepared to get nothing whatsoever in return.
15
I have been an angel for two Kickstarter projects. I received both finished products: a DVD on sidecar motorcycles with dog passengers, and a book of pet portraits from an Anchorage studio.
KS is certainly better than begging, hat in hand, from banks or venture capital, which has the creator by the you-know-what. Banks will not take a risk for a start-up, but then will go crying to the Feds to bail them out from huge bets that went bad.
Of course there are risks, but the biggest risk in life is crossing the street in traffic. I regularly look at KS for a worthwhile project. I'll gladly help someone avoid a supercilious banker, VC, or gallery owner.
Michael Marinsky
KS is certainly better than begging, hat in hand, from banks or venture capital, which has the creator by the you-know-what. Banks will not take a risk for a start-up, but then will go crying to the Feds to bail them out from huge bets that went bad.
Of course there are risks, but the biggest risk in life is crossing the street in traffic. I regularly look at KS for a worthwhile project. I'll gladly help someone avoid a supercilious banker, VC, or gallery owner.
Michael Marinsky
6
There is one born every minute.
1
It's like a game of poker. You make a bet (investment) and hope to win. Why the whining? You think just because you invested in a crowdfunding scheme you were going to win? Yes, a suckers more every minute and in this case every second.
9
Funding someone through Kickstarter should be viewed as a business analog to gambling (or lending money to relatives). Maybe you win and maybe you lose. But expecting a seamless, frictionless, risk-free "investment" to pay off is naive at best.
I do feel for all parties here, but don't contribute any more money than you can afford to lose.
I do feel for all parties here, but don't contribute any more money than you can afford to lose.
10
The only difference is that there is no winning. The winning is paying more for some product than it is worth. But perhaps for some the smugness is worth it.
KS funding is not "investing" nor an "investment." At best, you get something as a "thank you."
This reminds me vividly of another recent NYTimes Magazine article, on the vicious, life-and-career-ending response to silly, stupid, or inadvertently offensive tweets (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-j....
I was especially struck by the line that, even when the situation was explained to them, the ZPM backers were unwilling to believe that the founders were simply naive and inexperienced and got in over their heads. Like the Twitter crusaders, they preferred to believe the worst and assume malice aforethought rather than honest mistakes. It's too bad, and I feel sorry for the founders who are being hounded in this way. Woodhouse's remark, that they should never work in this field again, is telling. He's out for a public shaming, not reasonable recompense.
I was especially struck by the line that, even when the situation was explained to them, the ZPM backers were unwilling to believe that the founders were simply naive and inexperienced and got in over their heads. Like the Twitter crusaders, they preferred to believe the worst and assume malice aforethought rather than honest mistakes. It's too bad, and I feel sorry for the founders who are being hounded in this way. Woodhouse's remark, that they should never work in this field again, is telling. He's out for a public shaming, not reasonable recompense.
18
My fellow Bay Arean, God love him "uses a state-of-the-art VacMaster VP215 Chamber Vacuum Sealer to cache his meals; his fridge, packed with rows of baggied tuber, legume and flesh, resembles an evidence locker in an organ-theft investigation....he has a freezer that goes to minus 6 degrees — regular freezers don’t keep his fish sufficiently gelid — and a steel sous-vide basin that heats his VacMastered bags to temperatures accurate to one-tenth of a degree.
His Decent Espresso website states-"Espresso is very exacting: the water brew temperature and pressure have to be nearly perfect. If your temperature is off by 2° your drink will be "just ok". At 4° off it'll be unpleasant. On top of that, the pressure has to be within 5% of 9 bars. At 8 or 10 bars of pressure, you'll get nasty off-flavors. "
You can't make this stuff up.
His Decent Espresso website states-"Espresso is very exacting: the water brew temperature and pressure have to be nearly perfect. If your temperature is off by 2° your drink will be "just ok". At 4° off it'll be unpleasant. On top of that, the pressure has to be within 5% of 9 bars. At 8 or 10 bars of pressure, you'll get nasty off-flavors. "
You can't make this stuff up.
20
I get the sense that raising many times the funds asked for causes more issues with production and delivery. How many products are late because they then have to figure out how to produce x times the number of products for an initial offering? Why aren't crowdfunding projects raised funds capped as well as time to raise them? Seems to me it sets more reasonable expectations of what they need to achieve in the time they promise.
10
Let me get this you, the sucker, gets to invest in a company of uncertain means or direction and you don't get a piece of it, you might get a product you could pay less for. So you take all of the risk and get none of the reward. No wonder Mr. Woodhouse feels foolish, he has been played for a fool.
14
Message to Gleb and Janet: Don't take it personally and look so downhearted.........bad stuff can and does happen to good people. Forget espresso shots. Next time try for a moon shot. If you're going to fail, fail big. The bankers will understand.
12
If you're cavalier enough to give your money to a stranger, who hypes his good commercial or philanthropic idea on-line, with no contract or track record of reliability, well, you have nothing to complain about when it goes bad, whether from incompetence or fraud.
23
Lots of text, but what most backers and NYT readers may want to hear is simply, this: financials. How much did the company pay its founders in salary and perks, 401Ks and the like out of crowd funds? How much did it spend in R&D and "supremely difficult" manufacturing. Did the company have a set of advisers, and did it receive any Small Business Administration Loans (which would show that the company had at least a business plan?)
There is a difference between funding somebody's fantasy, and funding an actual project. This article does not answer that simple, basic question.
There is a difference between funding somebody's fantasy, and funding an actual project. This article does not answer that simple, basic question.
23
Crowdfunding doesn't offer high returns to compensate the investor for the absurd level of risk. So, right now you get a pretty bad deal: sky-high risk and an average return. Hopefully, crowdfunding platforms can get smarter about ways to align risk / return levels with other types of investment.
2
An interesting tale, both about the foibles of tinkerers who think they're the next big thing, and naive investors who, as the article states, want a frictionless experience while ignoring the the risks involved. Businesses do indeed fly or die for banal reasons. And few tinkerers or investors understand business, what it takes to build one, and how easy it is to fail. What seems to be the moral of the tale is don't crowd fund if you don't have the stomach or ability to deal with the craziness of grassroots environments, and be prepared for public shaming and harassment if you fail. People will want their pound of flesh if they don't get their espresso machine.
7
I would never contribute to a KickStarter campaign, especially for a non-artistic endeavor. First and foremost, I have no idea who these people are. Traditionally, people got community funding for their business ideas. The people in their family and social circles would gauge whether a person was industrious, practical, or whatever it takes to try to make a good faith go at a business. If a person can't win over friends or family or their local bank with their business proposal, I am certainly not in a better position to gauge the merits. Furthermore, as the founders would have no accountability to me, I could never know if the money was spent judiciously, wisely or even legally. Basically, when you give to KickStarter, you are giving to a charity for the benefit of a specific person. If you're good with it, then you should give. If you're not good with that, then you shouldn't. Personally, I'd rather give to people in true need. It also better ensures that money doesn't get wasted on hopeless endeavors.
13
I worked in an engineering design consultancy that was contracted early on to help productize the ZPM design, and as such am intimately familiar with their initial concepts. In my opinion, the founders were initially earnest and dedicated but also naive and lacking in engineering judgement. They confused the ability to raise money with the ability to make sound engineering and technical decisions. Falling in love with one's ideas is a trap into which many inventors fall, and ZPM fell hard.
Additionally, I believe that ZPM received a lot of questionable advice from people who did not have their best interests at heart, and were swayed by strong personalities.
But the early backers - particularly the engineers - should have had the sense to realize that open-source firmware that is intended to control a consumer product that delivers scalding hot water is a fundamentally BAD idea, and that using a PID loop to manage the process is totally unnecessary.
What this article highlights is that Mr. Polyakov's talent is in raising money and expectations. It is unfortunate that neither his ethics, nor his engineering abilities can match those talents.
Additionally, I believe that ZPM received a lot of questionable advice from people who did not have their best interests at heart, and were swayed by strong personalities.
But the early backers - particularly the engineers - should have had the sense to realize that open-source firmware that is intended to control a consumer product that delivers scalding hot water is a fundamentally BAD idea, and that using a PID loop to manage the process is totally unnecessary.
What this article highlights is that Mr. Polyakov's talent is in raising money and expectations. It is unfortunate that neither his ethics, nor his engineering abilities can match those talents.
29
The world truly needs another espresso machine!
9
All this angst. Imagine what would happen to Ford if it were to introduce the Edsel today.
3
I got scammed twice on kickstarter. First for a documentary, the movie did well, is on Neflix, went to festivals, and O the Oprah channel. For $15,000 they promised perks which they never delivered on. The promoters were already established film executives and in reality did not need crowd funding to raise funds. The campaign was relentless. Another film project took my $1,000 and for reasons described as production difficulties never got the project off the ground. I wish there was a way for Kickstarter afford some kind of accountability.
4
I was recently involved in a successful KS launch that considerably exceeded the project goals. It was exhilarating to see the response of folks to our project.
However, many that contributed really feel as though they are your partners. They demand immediate responses to multiple daily emails, & it wasn't unusual for us to receive >500 per day.
Being a start-up, the company had a limited number of employees and we would have been forced to double our staff just to answer emails when we had a lot to do to launch the product.
Many backers think that companies launching on KS have mature well trained staffs and that is rarely the case. If that were the case, we wouldnt be on KS.
Our project was about a month late in shipping, but we fulfilled thousands of individual orders on a global basis. Based on the volume of hate mail from many of these people for being a month late, 1 would think we were responsible for the death of a family member. It was insane. I'll never get over the nature of the personal attacks people aimed at us because they didn't get their goods when we first thought they would be delivered.
The entire experience left a horrible taste in the mouth of myself & many of my associates.
To the folks that were patient and understanding I thank you for supporting us and hope you love the product. Those that wished death on us & our family (there were many threats) for being a month late, you really need to understand more about the process. KS isn't Amazon.
However, many that contributed really feel as though they are your partners. They demand immediate responses to multiple daily emails, & it wasn't unusual for us to receive >500 per day.
Being a start-up, the company had a limited number of employees and we would have been forced to double our staff just to answer emails when we had a lot to do to launch the product.
Many backers think that companies launching on KS have mature well trained staffs and that is rarely the case. If that were the case, we wouldnt be on KS.
Our project was about a month late in shipping, but we fulfilled thousands of individual orders on a global basis. Based on the volume of hate mail from many of these people for being a month late, 1 would think we were responsible for the death of a family member. It was insane. I'll never get over the nature of the personal attacks people aimed at us because they didn't get their goods when we first thought they would be delivered.
The entire experience left a horrible taste in the mouth of myself & many of my associates.
To the folks that were patient and understanding I thank you for supporting us and hope you love the product. Those that wished death on us & our family (there were many threats) for being a month late, you really need to understand more about the process. KS isn't Amazon.
22
Kickstarter is a highly informal and unstructured means to invest and raise money. Lack of structure and accountability are its nature. Expectations should be set accordingly.
10
I'm lost. You would invest $250 for a hypothetical espresso machine you could buy even in a brick and mortar store for half that?
7
The only reason I didn't back this was that they didn't offer a 220v model. Lucky for me. I followed the project the whole time, and part of the anger of the backers, I think, comes from the very friendly and personal way the company sold itself, and the resulting incongruous lack of communication that developed as the project was delayed again and again.
The communiques seemed to be trying to hide that the project was in difficulty.
I've invested small amounts in 2 projects on Kickstarter. One was a very simple device that was already ready for production and just needed backing for manufacturing costs. The other was a set of wireless bluetooth headphones - but it was being produced by an experienced audio company.
Both succeeded and I got the product.
The founders didn't understand anything about what was actually involved in manufacturing. Even with working prototypes, they couldn't get UL certification. I think the lesson is not to invest in anything on Kickstarter that involves any kind of serious manufacturing, unless the people involved know how to actually make things.
And anyone thinking of giving money to a project on Kickstarter, realize you may be making a "donation". Don't contribute to anything or in any amount your aren't prepared to write off as a loss.
The communiques seemed to be trying to hide that the project was in difficulty.
I've invested small amounts in 2 projects on Kickstarter. One was a very simple device that was already ready for production and just needed backing for manufacturing costs. The other was a set of wireless bluetooth headphones - but it was being produced by an experienced audio company.
Both succeeded and I got the product.
The founders didn't understand anything about what was actually involved in manufacturing. Even with working prototypes, they couldn't get UL certification. I think the lesson is not to invest in anything on Kickstarter that involves any kind of serious manufacturing, unless the people involved know how to actually make things.
And anyone thinking of giving money to a project on Kickstarter, realize you may be making a "donation". Don't contribute to anything or in any amount your aren't prepared to write off as a loss.
8
Interesting and, even better, a good read.
3
Early in my business career (mid-80's) I took a finance job with a small company that was actively engaged in the hunt for venture capital. We had no particular product - the CEO was convinced that our "unique" design and build capabilities in a niche of the high frequency radio business would eventually lead to financial riches. Eventually we did connect with some funding, all in the form of debt with high interest rates and onerous terms and covenants. Ultimately, the company was unable to deliver, financially and technically and was forced to sell at pennies on the dollar. I left shortly before the collapse when it became obvious that the company was sinking and no more cash was coming it.
It's a cautionary tale that anyone who becomes involved in start-up financing needs to understand. Experienced venture capital players understand that 1 in 10 is about the best you can expect as a success rate in this kind of investing. If you want to through a couple of hundred dollars at a crowd-funded campaign, consider it a donation. Even if you are promised a product at the end, it's speculation at the most extreme. While I doubt that the ZPM folks started out with any nefarious intent, at the end of the day unhappy investors are like scorned lovers. All the good things that brought them into the relationship are forgotten and only the hurt remains, spurring the desire for "satisfaction".
It's a cautionary tale that anyone who becomes involved in start-up financing needs to understand. Experienced venture capital players understand that 1 in 10 is about the best you can expect as a success rate in this kind of investing. If you want to through a couple of hundred dollars at a crowd-funded campaign, consider it a donation. Even if you are promised a product at the end, it's speculation at the most extreme. While I doubt that the ZPM folks started out with any nefarious intent, at the end of the day unhappy investors are like scorned lovers. All the good things that brought them into the relationship are forgotten and only the hurt remains, spurring the desire for "satisfaction".
6
Gleb and Janet are young, dynamic entepreneurs who had an interesting idea that didn't work out. Happens all the time. Zero sympathy for the whiny suckers who pony up a $250 donation (if they didn't know it was a donation then that's further evidence of their idiocy) and then expect a lifetime of updates and hand holding.
12
The article demonstrates well the bewildering expectations of the 20-30 something crowd that good intentions and hard work should be rewarded all by themselves while absolving one of responsibility if things go south.
"I just don't understand why I didn't receive a better grade. I worked really hard and wanted to do so well in your class. Why are you so mean?"
I guess it's not all that bewildering when you consider the prevailing myth that material success and accomplishment only require diligence and having your heart in the right place. Yes, the original Kickstarter campaign that went bust before it got off the table but continues to be funded.
"I just don't understand why I didn't receive a better grade. I worked really hard and wanted to do so well in your class. Why are you so mean?"
I guess it's not all that bewildering when you consider the prevailing myth that material success and accomplishment only require diligence and having your heart in the right place. Yes, the original Kickstarter campaign that went bust before it got off the table but continues to be funded.
13
I've backed several projects on Kickstarter - some of which have turned out well, and some of which have been failures. Fortunately, the failures haven't been anywhere near on the scale of this ZPM mess. The unfortunate piece is that failures like ZPM undermine the small-scale creative projects on Kickstarter, and leave people with the taste that Kickstarter projects are scams. There seem to have been a lot of red flags that pointed to this project being problematic, and I would have liked to have seen the article explore the reasons people ignored the lack of experience from the ZPM team and those types of issues in making their Kickstarter pledges. This article doesn't leave me with a lot of sympathy for any of the parties involved.
5
You win some, you lose some. That's the nature of investing in an unknown quantity. People shouldn't whine about the losses. No guarantees in investing.
A great laugh to begin a beautiful spring day: "Buckman was drawn to ZPM because he 'hadn’t yet seen someone marrying computers and espresso powerfully.'"
7
20 years ago, the Internet barely existed. Today, it dominates every single corner of our lives, and a totally uncritical generation is just doing everything without thinking. While it might be good for some things, as the article rightly suggests at the start: manufacturing ain't really it. It is too complex, there are too many details, there are supply chain issues, supplier issues, laws, patents, etc... The Internet is full of good ideas, and bereft of reality. Yes, a Zuckerberg can become a billionaire on nothing but space. But selling hardware?
We have to all become more critical of the world about us, today more than ever. Because the real tagline for the web is caveat emptor.
We have to all become more critical of the world about us, today more than ever. Because the real tagline for the web is caveat emptor.
14
Wonderful article; in-depth and illuminating. And worth it if only for its hilarious and incisive portrait of John Buckman.
8
artfan,
Smiling as I look to a happily married couple of giraffes from my window and they have character with a sense of fun. Eclectic art they are, belonging to a neighbor, and they remind me of Mr. Buckman's personality; what is known as a 'non-pareil' in France, a man of substance who never takes himself too seriously.
We like our coffee and if there is someone who can produce a decent cup of coffee, why it would be Mr. Buckman who has the style and vision to detect an original from a forgery, and I am planning to place my 'monet' on this dreamy espresso machine of his home company.
Smiling as I look to a happily married couple of giraffes from my window and they have character with a sense of fun. Eclectic art they are, belonging to a neighbor, and they remind me of Mr. Buckman's personality; what is known as a 'non-pareil' in France, a man of substance who never takes himself too seriously.
We like our coffee and if there is someone who can produce a decent cup of coffee, why it would be Mr. Buckman who has the style and vision to detect an original from a forgery, and I am planning to place my 'monet' on this dreamy espresso machine of his home company.
Miss Ley,
Mr Lewis-Kraus may well have to surrender his quill to a woman of superior prose and poise.
Mr Lewis-Kraus may well have to surrender his quill to a woman of superior prose and poise.
I've run 2 small successful Kickstarters and pulled the plug on a 3rd when it seemed likely to not make its goal. Prior to the Kickstarters I'd co-founded three successful start-up manufacturing companies and licensed new products to two Fortune 500 corporations. The Kickstarter projects I did were the most entrepreneurial and engaging projects I've ever done. I'm addicted and plan to do many more. The backers are fantastically supportive and if you are upfront and honest at every step of the way - especially including the risks - everything turns out fine.
Complex projects like an espresso maker are tricky. But Pebble Watch showed that it's possible to keep backers happily waiting for over a year to overcome the hurdles of getting into production.
The problem with this project was not the Kickstarter model, it was people who ran the project incompetently.
Complex projects like an espresso maker are tricky. But Pebble Watch showed that it's possible to keep backers happily waiting for over a year to overcome the hurdles of getting into production.
The problem with this project was not the Kickstarter model, it was people who ran the project incompetently.
5
Funders and fundees seem to deserve each other here. The whole concept is insufferably cute.
6
Having backed several successful kickstarter projects (Leap Motion, to name one), the way I think about it is this: You are not a stakeholder;You are not an investor in any traditional sense.
In this model, you are essentially a private donator. Imagine, if you will, you are at a party. The DJ is taking requests for $2. You request a song. That song doesn't get played immediately, its in a queue. Some DJ's play the songs in order, some by when the song fits the mood. That song might not get played at all that night (too many requests, DJ says no, etc.). Are you entitled to a refund? no. Are you entitled to feel disappointment? Maybe.
The point I'm making is this: The people who design kickstarter campaigns (for the majority) are ordinary people with potentially great ideas. They might not have the skills to make what they envision, but damned if they aren't going to try. The smarter people will attempt to either learn said skills, or hire a skilled participant. the naive ones will attempt to just make it. They don't necessarily deserve to have careers ruined over attempting to make the best of their poor decision making instead of giving 100% disclosure in a situation where said disclosure would have made that more difficult for them.
In this model, you are essentially a private donator. Imagine, if you will, you are at a party. The DJ is taking requests for $2. You request a song. That song doesn't get played immediately, its in a queue. Some DJ's play the songs in order, some by when the song fits the mood. That song might not get played at all that night (too many requests, DJ says no, etc.). Are you entitled to a refund? no. Are you entitled to feel disappointment? Maybe.
The point I'm making is this: The people who design kickstarter campaigns (for the majority) are ordinary people with potentially great ideas. They might not have the skills to make what they envision, but damned if they aren't going to try. The smarter people will attempt to either learn said skills, or hire a skilled participant. the naive ones will attempt to just make it. They don't necessarily deserve to have careers ruined over attempting to make the best of their poor decision making instead of giving 100% disclosure in a situation where said disclosure would have made that more difficult for them.
2
Um, it's called a Grimac Royal Falcon La Valentina, for those who want the dream fulfilled. It's 2 grand. Amortized that 2 grand over the years and years and years it'll run flawlessly and the yearly price comes out to MUCH less than this ZPM "investment".
You want it? The Italians already did it. And, it's worth it. Get it, enjoy it, move on.
You want it? The Italians already did it. And, it's worth it. Get it, enjoy it, move on.
6
"Italian engineering" and "years it will run flawlessly" are laughably oxymoronic; ask any Ferrari owner.
Well, I am not surprised that 2-3 unexperienced
Basically a Kickstarter project is a leap of faith, you basically trust the founders.
And even a genius designer could be clueless about the complexity of industrial production (a milling machine in your backyard??just to make parts by yourself??What a nonsense..)
And if an app can be coded by a teenager, manufacturing an home appliance is not a simple (and cheap) task.
Doing it in the open of hundreds of backers, each with his own demand. it's even worse.
Basically a Kickstarter project is a leap of faith, you basically trust the founders.
And even a genius designer could be clueless about the complexity of industrial production (a milling machine in your backyard??just to make parts by yourself??What a nonsense..)
And if an app can be coded by a teenager, manufacturing an home appliance is not a simple (and cheap) task.
Doing it in the open of hundreds of backers, each with his own demand. it's even worse.
1
If the grown-ups at the Securities Exchange Commission were invited to comment on this story, they could justifiably say "I told you so" ! And they would be saying it to Congress which made this possible through misguided deregulation.
Remember, it was Congress that passed crowd funding into law in the 2012 "Jumpstart our businesses act" (JOBS), over the repeated objections and warnings of SEC Commission Mary Schapiro. The JOBS Act repealed SEC rules that were implemented after the crash of 29 and were designed to protect investors by requiring transparency and accountability (note how often these concepts come up in the ZPM story). SEC Commissioner Luis Aguilar warned that the crowd funding initiative “would be a boon to boiler room operators, Ponzi schemers, bucket shops, and garden variety fraudsters, by enabling them to cast a wider net, and making securities law enforcement much more difficult.”
Remember, it was Congress that passed crowd funding into law in the 2012 "Jumpstart our businesses act" (JOBS), over the repeated objections and warnings of SEC Commission Mary Schapiro. The JOBS Act repealed SEC rules that were implemented after the crash of 29 and were designed to protect investors by requiring transparency and accountability (note how often these concepts come up in the ZPM story). SEC Commissioner Luis Aguilar warned that the crowd funding initiative “would be a boon to boiler room operators, Ponzi schemers, bucket shops, and garden variety fraudsters, by enabling them to cast a wider net, and making securities law enforcement much more difficult.”
8
This has nothing to do with the JOBS Act. The people who donate on Kickstarter are not investors and the SEC is not involved and has never been involved in regulating Kickstarter in any way. These people just donate money in the hope of getting a product--they are not investing and receiving a part of the company in return, which is what the JOBS act addresses. However, this article does raise some issues that are very relevant to the JOBS act and contradict many arguments raised against the SEC's protective regulations.
I think a significant fraction of failed Kickstarter projects fail in the same way described in this article. The creators have an idea for what they want to do, figure out what it will cost, and start a campaign with that amount as the target. When the campaign catches on and they take in over ten times what they wanted, they have no idea how to handle it. Sometimes the problem is with manufacturing, and sometimes the problem is with all the bonuses that creators feel obliged to offer at various backing levels. I backed a comic book project for which the author committed himself to so many extras that he is still struggling to complete them more than 3 years later.
These are amateurs trying to work on a small scale, and they have trouble coping with catastrophic success.
These are amateurs trying to work on a small scale, and they have trouble coping with catastrophic success.
2
When Kickstarter started they had good intentions
Time Magazine called them 2010's best invention
funding films, music, stage shows, books, video games
2 many projects 2 even name
Over 1 billion dollars so far has been pledged
they've no doubt pulled many back from the ledge
but 1 thing about Kickstarter I don't understand
is when a rich person stands with a rich outstretched hand
Kickstarter is not for the wealthy
it's not nice to pretend that you're poor
real starving artists are too shy to beg
when you're there blocking the door
So stop and think What am I doing?
Is this money that I really need?
Or is this the day I found a new way
to hide that my motive is greed?
I want a facelift, a vacation in France
a silver wine rack, freezable underpants
shotgun shell cufflinks, edible gold
if that's what you want may I be so bold to say
You already have money, don't you, sitting in the bank
look at me buddy I'm being quite frank
if you want to travel via luxury bus
why not fund it yourself, why put it on us?
If you've got a big house, shoot 3 under par
have a glamorous lover, a tiny sportscar
how's this for a concept, try toeing the line
you pay your own bills and I will pay mine
Kickstarter is not for the wealthy
not proper to act like you're poor
real starving artists are too shy to beg
when you're there blocking the door
so stop and think, What are u doing?
is this money u really need?
or is this the day you found a new way
to hide that your motive is greed?
Time Magazine called them 2010's best invention
funding films, music, stage shows, books, video games
2 many projects 2 even name
Over 1 billion dollars so far has been pledged
they've no doubt pulled many back from the ledge
but 1 thing about Kickstarter I don't understand
is when a rich person stands with a rich outstretched hand
Kickstarter is not for the wealthy
it's not nice to pretend that you're poor
real starving artists are too shy to beg
when you're there blocking the door
So stop and think What am I doing?
Is this money that I really need?
Or is this the day I found a new way
to hide that my motive is greed?
I want a facelift, a vacation in France
a silver wine rack, freezable underpants
shotgun shell cufflinks, edible gold
if that's what you want may I be so bold to say
You already have money, don't you, sitting in the bank
look at me buddy I'm being quite frank
if you want to travel via luxury bus
why not fund it yourself, why put it on us?
If you've got a big house, shoot 3 under par
have a glamorous lover, a tiny sportscar
how's this for a concept, try toeing the line
you pay your own bills and I will pay mine
Kickstarter is not for the wealthy
not proper to act like you're poor
real starving artists are too shy to beg
when you're there blocking the door
so stop and think, What are u doing?
is this money u really need?
or is this the day you found a new way
to hide that your motive is greed?
5
This is why the world needs Wall Street. Imagine if an offering of securities for a major corporation like Samsung or Coke were executed in this way.
1
This is basically how Wall Street operated before FDR was elected and led the passage of SEC Act of 1933, 1934, etc. (which unfortunately have been weakened and diluted over time, not to mention lackadaisical enforcement from the SEC and DOJ).
The only way to "invest" money in a Kickstarter program is to consider it a form of entertainment where people of widely varying business skills will attempt to fulfill ideas of widely varying quality and soundness. Most have never dealt with backers, have no experience dealing with financials, and few have ever dealt with the global supply chain that is how products are manufactured in today's world. If you look at Kickstart with all these in mind - it's a triumph that is unleashing creativity, ambition, hope and determination for thousands of would-be entrepreneurs. Things that would never be made will be. But it's going to be ugly as often as it is beautiful.
2
Some of this reminds me of the internet stock craze of the late 1990s. There was a sense of democratization of the stock market, and many were investing in high fliers with no income; there's a bit of euphoria and excitement about being in on the ground floor of something, even though the odds are against most of us. (Reminds me of playing blackjack in Las Vegas, for that matter.)
I've invested in friends' artistic efforts on Kickstarter; one of which has, years later, still not come to fruition. I don't regret it, though I didn't think it would take this long. I was participating in the dream of someone who matters to me, and it wasn't money I couldn't live without.
Not to say that the founders handled the situation well, mind you. Just that these are risky ventures, there's no true oversight, and caveat emptor and all that.
Great article.
I've invested in friends' artistic efforts on Kickstarter; one of which has, years later, still not come to fruition. I don't regret it, though I didn't think it would take this long. I was participating in the dream of someone who matters to me, and it wasn't money I couldn't live without.
Not to say that the founders handled the situation well, mind you. Just that these are risky ventures, there's no true oversight, and caveat emptor and all that.
Great article.
6
This illustrates, on a micro level, why there are rules and regulators (like the SEC). Silicon Valley sometimes thinks they're immune to human illogic, but that's absurd.
I predict there will be a similar story on a grander scale with respect to the JOBS Act. Yes, different rules for different relationships (investor not patron), but there are plenty of people willing to prey on less-informed others by capitalizing on weakened regulation.
I predict there will be a similar story on a grander scale with respect to the JOBS Act. Yes, different rules for different relationships (investor not patron), but there are plenty of people willing to prey on less-informed others by capitalizing on weakened regulation.
6
I think a lot of the friction revolves around expectations. When I backed a CD project, I figured I would buy the album anyway, so I was basically just paying more, to help it get made. It did get made, but its delivery date was pushed back by months. The explanation had something to do with the opportunity to do a better job with an enhanced team -- something like that. But, of course, backers were not given a choice between a more stripped-down CD on time or a more deluxe production later -- that was the creators' call. For me, that underscored that backers have a limited role. I wondered whether some momentum and sense of community was lost by the delay, whether when all was said and done, going the deluxe route actually proved advantageous for the creators. What struck me, though, not that my mother was going to listen to the CD -- I was participating in the campaign on my own behalf -- was that my mother was alive at the time the CD was supposed to be delivered, but deceased by the time the albums were actually distributed, as I recall it. That made an impression on me.
11
Crowdfunding...
...or as it is sometimes called: a tax on the stupid.
...or as it is sometimes called: a tax on the stupid.
20
You would trust a character called "Gleb"?
11
It's a common male name in Russia, just like Igor. What do you mean?
Maybe the original backers, who are engineers, can help implement this project in a more economical way – just to get it done.
3
They should produced a book entitled "The Rise and Fall of ZPM Espresso" as a final deliverable for all stakeholders complete with financial statements. That would have gone a long way toward appeasing everyone who contributed to the effort. They didn't do a good job of stakeholder relations.
18
I think there are quite a few of these failed projects scattered throughout Kickstarter. The one I am most familiar with is the ADA camera remote from TriggerTrap. These guys raised more than five times the money they said they needed and then two years later decided they couldn't deliver. They refused to account for the money and offered small refunds and/or "store credit" to backers. I think most backers are unhappy about the lack of transparency from the developers. Here is a link to the product's comments page on Kickstarter.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/triggertrap/triggertrap-redsnap-mod...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/triggertrap/triggertrap-redsnap-mod...
6
So many of these projects are what I call 'entrepreneurial seizures' - people believe they can execute on this idea or product when they haven't a clue about how complicated and difficult it will be to get through it - technically, financially, emotionally. I back plenty of projects - but come on - clean execution is rare - even among the most talented people. I don't expect much from any project I back and I'm rarely disappointed and even if I am - it's never occurred to me that the people behind the project were in bad faith. Naive and overly ambitious maybe...but not crooks.
40
In the late 90s i worked for a startup that collected $175 million from investors and never shipped or sold a product. They did produce prototypes and were more or less legitimate. There was a bankruptcy and investors got some money back, but really, 250 bucks? Come on people, get over it!
46
If the backers were all little old ladies, this could have been called "The Producers".
34
All this over a cuppa coffee? Oi!
18
Anyone who gives money away on kickstarter should be aware they are giving away money.
106
Why would anyone "invest" in such a project at all, since it is not even an investment?
He uses a state-of-the-art VacMaster VP215 Chamber Vacuum Sealer to cache his meals; his fridge, packed with rows of baggied tuber, legume and flesh, resembles an evidence locker in an organ-theft investigation. In the garage, beside his matching Segways, he has a freezer that goes to minus 6 degrees — regular freezers don’t keep his fish sufficiently gelid — and a steel sous-vide basin that heats his VacMastered bags to temperatures accurate to one-tenth of a degree. His pantry countertop has a line of 13 power outlets.
He is.....the most interesting man in the world.
He is.....the most interesting man in the world.
88
Naww, he's just a fairly typical resident of Marin county.
1
OK, Richard wins the ENTIRE INTERNETS for the whole WEEK!
I heard of this Kickstarter early on-- probably after reading about it on a coffee blog-- and like bloggers and coffee experts on forums, I found it laughably naive. The founders clearly had very little coffee knowledge and zero product development or manufacturing a product.
The ZPM design was an attempt to integrate into a single unit a hack that is fairly common among coffee nerds: adding PID temperature control to a thermoblock-based espresso machine. Anybody doing a small amount of research would quickly discover that the $250 price was impossibly low. I consider the backers to be as naive and unworthy of sympathy as the founders: they were looking for an impossible bargain, to pay $250 for something that should properly cost $750-$1000.
The ZPM design was an attempt to integrate into a single unit a hack that is fairly common among coffee nerds: adding PID temperature control to a thermoblock-based espresso machine. Anybody doing a small amount of research would quickly discover that the $250 price was impossibly low. I consider the backers to be as naive and unworthy of sympathy as the founders: they were looking for an impossible bargain, to pay $250 for something that should properly cost $750-$1000.
47
There's a lot to be said for actual experience. I know the millennials think they can do anything but these people would have been well served by a 40 year old partner who had at some point in their career actually shipped a product and dealt with manufacturing.
Looks like in the end that's exactly who ended up owning the project.
Looks like in the end that's exactly who ended up owning the project.
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Wow. A great deal to learn a lesson in life: many "investments" don't work out. Be glad this lesson only cost you a couple of hundred dollars and stop whining. I've lost thousands over the years on bad investment decisions and made more on good ones. It happens. But if you diversify and limit your risks, you will do alright over the long term.
Even the people who mention they have funded other projects. Some work, some don't. Get over it. It cost you so little. You are lucky to learn your lesson.
Even the people who mention they have funded other projects. Some work, some don't. Get over it. It cost you so little. You are lucky to learn your lesson.
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You have the name of John Beckman's company wrong. It's Decent Espresso. http://decentespresso.com/.
4
You have the man's name wrong. It's John Buckman.
15
Thank you, Juan TRED, for the correct name of Mr. John Buckman's Company. It looks quite splendid after a first viewing and will make a heavenly gift for a couple who are getting married next year. On to my list, it goes with appreciation. Au Lait!
They're kids! That should have been taken into consideration when giving them money. The dark side of our youth adulating culture is that we expect way too much from those still inexperienced in the ways of the world. Let's cut them some slack. And not give them so much attention. You made a bad investment, get over it. That's the risk you take when you go to a place like Kickstarter.
51
Good point but you'll often find as I did with another Kickstarter project that the principals often present themselves through an alias and have no requirement to disclose their identities or personal information to allow backers to vet their qualifications. After four years, I got something approximating the item I backed, but I'm saving my future investment capital for Lotto scratchers.
Great article and a cautionary tale of how things can go wrong when idealism bumps up against the realities of manufacturing. The story of ZPM is also indicative of just how rare knowledge of manufacturing and how products come to market is now in America. People are out of touch about the realities of how the consumer products we use every day are made and just how expensive and difficult manufacturing is.
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Very interesting story, which I re-read just for the wonderful writing.
22
I am one of the original Kickstarter backers. I paid $250-$300 (I honestly don't remember at this point). I expected a machine, but also understood that this was not a purchase of a product, but an investment in a concept. I also understood (actually assumed based on the profile of the founders) that this was speculative and had a very high probability of failing. I did not expect a refund. I assumed I would get some piece of hardware, but after the first year or so of delays assumed it would eventually go belly up.
Of course I am disappointed, but in NO way am I upset with the founders or KS. I was investing in the kids who had a vision and took a risk. My $300 was inconsequential to me (anyone who pledged money they could not afford or were not prepared to lose were the foolish ones). What the founders risked was their time and reputation (much more valuable and precious than my mad money) and they should be lauded for taking that risk.
This is the entrepreneurial spirit that makes America great. The need for blame and retribution and desire for litigation is destroying this country. We see it in the political sphere and we see it in business. It should be OK to fail as long as you do it with good intentions and learn from the experience. I hold no ill will toward Jennifer and Gleb and wish them the best. Sure, they could have been more transparent, but that is one of the things they learned. Next time I am in SF, I would be happy to buy them both a coffee.
Of course I am disappointed, but in NO way am I upset with the founders or KS. I was investing in the kids who had a vision and took a risk. My $300 was inconsequential to me (anyone who pledged money they could not afford or were not prepared to lose were the foolish ones). What the founders risked was their time and reputation (much more valuable and precious than my mad money) and they should be lauded for taking that risk.
This is the entrepreneurial spirit that makes America great. The need for blame and retribution and desire for litigation is destroying this country. We see it in the political sphere and we see it in business. It should be OK to fail as long as you do it with good intentions and learn from the experience. I hold no ill will toward Jennifer and Gleb and wish them the best. Sure, they could have been more transparent, but that is one of the things they learned. Next time I am in SF, I would be happy to buy them both a coffee.
173
Exactly right! Unfortunately, this article will probably hurt Kickstarter, which has done a lot of good for a lot of creative young people.
My reward for small "investments" has always been more the thought of helping these people get a chance to actually get their thought to fruition, rather than any actual return to me.
My reward for small "investments" has always been more the thought of helping these people get a chance to actually get their thought to fruition, rather than any actual return to me.
Are they refunding the pre-orders? That would show that they took the money with good intentions.
I followed this campaing from the beginning but never backed it. I feel bad for the initial backers, but also understand there are no crowdfunding guarantees. What I can't fathom is that many people "pre-ordered" this machine after the kickstarter campaign was complete, and spent up to $600. "Pre-ordering" from ZPMs website is not crowdfunding. Pre-ordering suggests there is a product ready to roll off the assembly line, yet my understanding is that these buyers also ended up with nothing.
9
The story incorrectly states (at the end) that my espresso-machine company name as "Decent Coffee".
It is in fact http://decentespresso.com/
It is in fact http://decentespresso.com/
10
Should be Descent Espresso
2
I haven't read the complete story yet but around 6 months ago I said to myself that I have to stop giving money to Kickstarter. I don't have $50 to throw around so easily to something that may not ever reach a finishing point. I gave $50 to a movie that has yet to be shown -- this was around 2 years ago. Then I gave money to a few other causes that actually did come through but was it really necessary? The last thing I did was something that was so impulsive that I regretted it instantly and a month later, when I was low on funds, my account was charged when it was fully funded. This was another movie and I've heard nothing -- or very little - from the people who took my money.
That's another problem. I'd rather have the money taken immediately when I first decide to "buy" the item. Waiting until the project is fully funded, when I've forgotten about the "buy," is another reminder of how misguided I was to donate money to this cause, anyway.
When I have money to give, I'll help my local animal shelter, a place I actually have a relationship with.
All this being said, if you feel strongly about something, by all means use Kickstarter as a way to help someone. I just can't do it because I'm too much of an impulse shopper and have done a good job lately of curbing my impulses.
That's another problem. I'd rather have the money taken immediately when I first decide to "buy" the item. Waiting until the project is fully funded, when I've forgotten about the "buy," is another reminder of how misguided I was to donate money to this cause, anyway.
When I have money to give, I'll help my local animal shelter, a place I actually have a relationship with.
All this being said, if you feel strongly about something, by all means use Kickstarter as a way to help someone. I just can't do it because I'm too much of an impulse shopper and have done a good job lately of curbing my impulses.
17
Or consider the Up Front kickstarter, where the originator, Ric Falch didn't disclose he was getting sued for non payment of a couple hundred thousand. He collected a cool $340k, which was enough to pay his lawyers, settle, and move to Australia. Two years later, no fulfillment, and seemingly no intent to do so. Check out the comment section.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1325766284/up-front-the-card-game
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1325766284/up-front-the-card-game
14
Good for him! Fools and their money were lucky to get together in the first place.
How can I buy it?
32
I have been a part of the Kickstarter world both as a backer and a creator. We created an eco-friendly toy made from recycled plastic and wood fibers, and shipped within a month of the promised date. It was the result of 2 years of research and a lot of my own money as well as that of my backers. It was not easy. When I was an advertising photographer back in the analog era, printers held closely guarded processes almost as a priesthood, not sharing information or allowing the photographer to have any input into the process. The digital revolution changed all that. Now you can do almost anything you want. Manufacturing is still in that priesthood era. The machinery and the processes behind them have not changed since the seventies. But in the same way that digital imaging changed the way we communicate with pictures, new materials and processes will change the world of manufacturing. For my own project, I needed to get injection molding tools produced at incredible cost. Now those tools can be 3D printed. At this point the cost is prohibitive, but thats just a matter of time. My first digital camera cost me 36,000 dollars. Now you can get a better camera in your smartphone. We are at the very beginning of a manufacturing revolution that will bring locally made products and innovative ideas to everyone. And Kickstarter is the place it will happen. Tales such as the coffee maker are just the growing pains of a total renewal of an outdated manufacturing model waiting to die.
13
Where oh where to start? This article, with its oh so posed photograph, in which the two children are dressed and composed so as to appear serious and sincere (Polyakov with his finger nearly under his chin in thoughtful contemplation of his misunderstood genius and the girl casting large baleful eyes in a the direction of something off camera) is almost like a parody. I wonder if that is the intent, since the language of the article veers in that direction too. I do not mean to be "mean," (ouch) but it seems this ilk is worth parodying, even more so since they don't generally seem to know what parody is. The grandiosity of trivial
enterprises in the 20-30 something tech arena has become laughable
and depressing. Many stories in the NYT these days...Secret, a linked story about Silk Road. These are the kids who want to throw out everything accomplished by anyone over 40, and who flagrantly flout age discrimination laws, refusing to hire anyone whose LIFE EXPERIENCE makes them, in fact, USEFUL, because they feel more comfortable playing with their own kind in the sandbox. Remember the online pet food co? Failed because their shipping costs outran their sales revenue. These are the kids whose entitlement (we are smart, we are special who are you?) makes them serenely unaware that the world and its ways began long before they were born. It's a tough realization, I agree, and I sympathize. The hubris of the vast majority of tech-babies makes me want to laugh and cry.
enterprises in the 20-30 something tech arena has become laughable
and depressing. Many stories in the NYT these days...Secret, a linked story about Silk Road. These are the kids who want to throw out everything accomplished by anyone over 40, and who flagrantly flout age discrimination laws, refusing to hire anyone whose LIFE EXPERIENCE makes them, in fact, USEFUL, because they feel more comfortable playing with their own kind in the sandbox. Remember the online pet food co? Failed because their shipping costs outran their sales revenue. These are the kids whose entitlement (we are smart, we are special who are you?) makes them serenely unaware that the world and its ways began long before they were born. It's a tough realization, I agree, and I sympathize. The hubris of the vast majority of tech-babies makes me want to laugh and cry.
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Great comments! Will just add: And the Indigo Children come of age. Where's that article, NYT?
5
Perfect!
Kids are the same in every generation. I remember hearing the same complaints about mine, the one with X. They're still going to win because they're young, so stop worrying about it.
2
What a mess this project was...
4
I almost invested in this Kickstarter, but decided not to - the cost, the long delivery times, and other financial obligations kept my wallet in my pocket. Every once in a while I'd see a reference to the machine, and feel a twinge of regret that I didn't take the leap.
I've backed 6 or so campaigns, and all have been successful (or seem to be on-track to complete). All have been late, and all have backers that seem to suffer cognitive dissonance they understand that it's a risk but act as if the "reward" is guaranteed - they aren't shopping on Amazon.com.
I think backers buy into the dream of making something new and wonderful, but suffering from the Dunning–Kruger effect: they know nothing about creating something new so it seems simple.
This was a fascinating look behind the curtain, and perhaps will provide backers with "$250 [worth] of information".
I've backed 6 or so campaigns, and all have been successful (or seem to be on-track to complete). All have been late, and all have backers that seem to suffer cognitive dissonance they understand that it's a risk but act as if the "reward" is guaranteed - they aren't shopping on Amazon.com.
I think backers buy into the dream of making something new and wonderful, but suffering from the Dunning–Kruger effect: they know nothing about creating something new so it seems simple.
This was a fascinating look behind the curtain, and perhaps will provide backers with "$250 [worth] of information".
26
This story points out how completely unaware most people are as to how much effort, knowledge and experience is behind the launch of any viable product. And design, engineering, and prototyping represent only part of the process. You then have to figure out how (and where) to produce the product cost-effectively and in numbers that will support a successful business. I looked around this team's Kickstarter page and the ZPM Espresso site and saw no mention of any experience in product development or manufacturing. Let the backer beware...
58
It is not just the $ lost, but the knowledge that in many cases one has fallen for a scam. Nobody likes to feel like a sucker. For example, one guy that I am aware of has more than one Kickstarter/crowdfunded project that followed the same pattern: get money, repeatedly say mfg. in China doing bad job, then claim new mfr. needed, then money gone. Kickstarter is a mature enough company now that things should be clarified regarding backer vs. investor vs. buyer. It may be that a contingency class action suit would work out against Kickstarter, where it might not work out against individual scammers, considering how much they make from campaigns and how very very little they do to prevent fraudulent activities.
8
As a physical therapist who just fulfilled the TAPTOOL Project on Kickstarter, I have a great deal of empathy for ZPM. Unless you have a long successful track record in bringing hardware to market or an incredible mentor, it is very difficult to succeed with cost over runs, catastrophic mistakes due to lack of engineering knowledge and coyote vendors looking for easy prey. I spent every day of the past 1.4 years with my backers in the forefront of my mind day and night. I was determined not to be that " vapor ware" project. Now, as a creator, I see how easy it is to evaporate with one costly decision. The Kickstarter spirit has been mostly wonderful for TAPTOOL however it could easily have gone the other way . The KS Backer drumbeats are always in the distance.
23
I've backed about 12 Kickstarter projects at this point, everything from products to music to campaigns to save old houses. Mostly I've backed product-based projects. I understand Kickstarter is not a store, and I don't experience the same teeth-gnashing ire that many of my fellow backers seem to experience, when a project is late with delivery. At the same time, project creators need to understand that when they say, essentially, "give us money and we will send you this thing," they - themselves, personally - are making a commitment to backers that supersedes (in my opinion, and that of many others) Kickstarter's mostly-hollow claim that Kickstarter is not a store. (It's not a store...but people are exchanging money for goods...so...I don't know. Something there doesn't compute.) In the end, Kickstarter neither advocates for project creators, nor does it protect them. The creators' personal integrity is at stake, along with their professional reputations and some other pretty important things.
I consult with small businesspeople. For awhile, everyone was salivating over crowdfunding. Here's the deal, I said: if you're going to create a project, you better make sure you can deliver what you're promising, because if you don't you will be crucified, publicly. That took the bloom off the rose for most. I think most projects, these days, are better-planned and thought through. Definitely, backers are more savvy. Which is a good thing, for everyone concerned.
I consult with small businesspeople. For awhile, everyone was salivating over crowdfunding. Here's the deal, I said: if you're going to create a project, you better make sure you can deliver what you're promising, because if you don't you will be crucified, publicly. That took the bloom off the rose for most. I think most projects, these days, are better-planned and thought through. Definitely, backers are more savvy. Which is a good thing, for everyone concerned.
8
did i just read an article in the onion?
51
When the money started rolling in the founders didn't know what to do but take it. In reality, they had plenty of opportunities to take a step back and ask themselves a simple question - did they have the expertise to manage such a complex project and deliver it? I would have been transparent and pulled the Kickstarter.
They had proposed something people desperately wanted - so they could have relaunched with a more realistic pitch, which in the long run would have seen most of the initial backers return anew.
They had proposed something people desperately wanted - so they could have relaunched with a more realistic pitch, which in the long run would have seen most of the initial backers return anew.
8
Fascinating story. But there is no mention of a patent. Without a patent I suspect this machine is no better than other single-shot machines. I say this only because it seems that everything that needed to be done to get this machine manufactured has been done before. Yet there was way to much bungling to do what others have done before.
9
Have you tried to get a patent lately? These two would be grandparents before
they had a patent.
they had a patent.
1
A straight forward patent takes a couple of years.
However - you are protected the moment you file it - assuming it is eventually approved.
However - you are protected the moment you file it - assuming it is eventually approved.
A fascinating tale, but this doesn't hold a candle to the shenanigans that go on in face-to-face small business investment deals. A friend of mine invested $175k in the business of one of his friends, primarily to finance the production of their products. That person one night moved their new, jointly owned inventory from the warehouse to an undisclosed location and skipped town. It took a private investigator and attorney months to track him down and serve him with papers. Now two years later they are finally getting to depositions. And in a most bizarre twist, the person is representing himself with no attorney present, and injecting a la Perry Mason, "strike that -- objection, objection!" all the time. There is no end in sight.
For a $250 investment that was knows to be -- or should have been known to be -- risky, I wouldn't sweat the satisfaction. If you were defrauded, be glad is was only $250. Chalk it up as a life lesson.
For a $250 investment that was knows to be -- or should have been known to be -- risky, I wouldn't sweat the satisfaction. If you were defrauded, be glad is was only $250. Chalk it up as a life lesson.
63