I live in the Deep South. Try standing up at a party and saying, The Republicans are about stealing from the bottom 90 and giving to the top 10 percent. Some would say, So?
11
"Oh, those Germans" we say. They must be some special kind of people to have done something like that. We are human, we are all capable of committing a crime like the Shoah. Every human child should be taught these words, "never again," and be judged as adults by how well they live their meaning.
5
what old nazis should make us remember is the acts of present day monsters who act like them.
17
Mr. Groening deserves a lot of credit for having admitted his role in what went on and especially for having written about it to refute those who claim it never happened. If his trial is one of the last chances to remember in such a meaningful way, it's also one of the last chances to forgive in a meaningful way.
3
Groning's statement that "in 24 hours you could take of 5,000 people" is particularly chilling. That "take care of" would seem to say much about the depth of current state of remorse. When dealing with people like him it's very important I think to remember Aesop's fable of the scorpion and the frog. It's my nature, the scorpion says, as he kills himself and his naive host.
6
It is always the old Nazis who remind us, those in their nineties and soon to die. Younger Germans never speak the truth and are hiding behind "Ich habe es nicht gewusst" (I really didn't know). It is not only Germany that has never admitted its creation and role of the Holocaust but also other Europeans; Anne Frank was found out while hiding in Amsterdam and obviously the Dutch, loyal to Hitler, caused her discovery and death; one percent of the total population there at the time (100,000) ended up getting gassed - all Jews. As long as the young Europeans do not admit this cancer of the mind then recovery from this illness is impossible and will flare up again. The hatred of the Jews in Europe has been going on for more than 500 years and it is very naïve to think that this will disappear within one or two generations since Hitler. Reality is, Europe has never admitted that they hate the Jews and reality is they never will. Oskar Groning, late in his life is trying to correct this but he waited too long and lost his chance.
11
Anna Souerbrey is on to something. The full implementation of 'Never Again' must involve more than ideology alone----it must involve some action(s).
The holocaust began very, very gently, in 1934 in our case. My parents (being Jewish), brother, and I received a letter from the President of the Berlin Police, dated Dec. 8 of that year, informing my father (a naturalized German citizen) that according to the Reich Law of 1933, his German citizenship and that of his wife and 2 sons WAS HEREBY REVOKED.
No reason is given in the letter. The last point in the letter is: 'The revocation cannot be fought by legal proceedings.'
Never mind that my brother and I were BORN in Berlin!!
The failure of any post-1945 German government to take what might serve as an atoning action and offer my brother and me (and other similar cases) the option of RE-INSTITUTING our/their natural German citizenship, is blatant, imo. It might meet Souerbrey's criteria.
After all, the Spanish government was able to offer Spanish citizenship to the descentants of Jews expelled from Iberia in 1492!
The holocaust began very, very gently, in 1934 in our case. My parents (being Jewish), brother, and I received a letter from the President of the Berlin Police, dated Dec. 8 of that year, informing my father (a naturalized German citizen) that according to the Reich Law of 1933, his German citizenship and that of his wife and 2 sons WAS HEREBY REVOKED.
No reason is given in the letter. The last point in the letter is: 'The revocation cannot be fought by legal proceedings.'
Never mind that my brother and I were BORN in Berlin!!
The failure of any post-1945 German government to take what might serve as an atoning action and offer my brother and me (and other similar cases) the option of RE-INSTITUTING our/their natural German citizenship, is blatant, imo. It might meet Souerbrey's criteria.
After all, the Spanish government was able to offer Spanish citizenship to the descentants of Jews expelled from Iberia in 1492!
12
Anna, your essay will probably speak to those who try to be daily, rigorously, self honest. Yet, I strongly suspect that too many will simply self righteously point the finger at old "Supermen" such as Groning, while never questioning their own, "Exceptionalism." Maybe because it's merely to easy to continue to glorify our own history, beginning with the likes of Thomas Jefferson, who's flowery, still often quoted "ideals," cover a decadent life built upon the backs of thousands of African slaves, whom he beat, bred and raped at will.
We also rarely ever speak of Vietnam, and the 58,000 poor African and white draftees, who reluctantly gave their lives, if only to prove the USA is not a paper tiger. We especially never mention the three million Vietnamese whom we killed and horribly muted, via carpet bombing and napalm.
Another big taboo is our historically vicious, and seemingly never ending meddling, along with Great Britain, in the Middle East.
That said, since the NYT's usually deletes my comments, I strongly suspect this aspect of those who would still rule the world, will never see the light of day.
We also rarely ever speak of Vietnam, and the 58,000 poor African and white draftees, who reluctantly gave their lives, if only to prove the USA is not a paper tiger. We especially never mention the three million Vietnamese whom we killed and horribly muted, via carpet bombing and napalm.
Another big taboo is our historically vicious, and seemingly never ending meddling, along with Great Britain, in the Middle East.
That said, since the NYT's usually deletes my comments, I strongly suspect this aspect of those who would still rule the world, will never see the light of day.
18
I was born a few years after the end of WWII. Ladies at the local bakery gave me free bonus cookies and their forearms had tattooed numbers, but no one talked about the Holocaust. When, as a young adult I began to learn about the camps, I thought how odd that the Germans never really suffered much consequence for (truly) wiping out European Jewry.
Please let’s address the percentage of all Jews that were killed, not the sheer number. Such a large percentage were killed, followed by stunned timidity and a rush toward assimilation and intermarriage that you had to wonder if Jews and their traditions would disappear altogether. If you are Jewish, you know that we are so small a minority that outside of major cities it is still quite rare to encounter someone who’s Jewish (I most keenly felt that when I lived in Europe in the 1980’s). If you are from a majority religion you never have that experience. Believe me – it’s complicated.
Please let’s address the percentage of all Jews that were killed, not the sheer number. Such a large percentage were killed, followed by stunned timidity and a rush toward assimilation and intermarriage that you had to wonder if Jews and their traditions would disappear altogether. If you are Jewish, you know that we are so small a minority that outside of major cities it is still quite rare to encounter someone who’s Jewish (I most keenly felt that when I lived in Europe in the 1980’s). If you are from a majority religion you never have that experience. Believe me – it’s complicated.
18
When the last victim, witness and perpetrator has died, the revisionists and deniers will be the only ones left...
2000 years of European/Christian history, 1500 years of Arabic/Islamic history give absolutely no assurances that I'm wrong...
2000 years of European/Christian history, 1500 years of Arabic/Islamic history give absolutely no assurances that I'm wrong...
10
A few days ago NYT had an article about the Vietnamese people. Their attitude and coping to their horror filled history is worthy to be emulated. They do not have an angst towards us anymore. But they do remember their lost and loved ones. They are not very welcoming but they are not antipathetic either. They go about their simple lives still picking up the pieces from that war. This could be a coping mechanism for the Jews and the Germans too, whose ancestors were the victims and the perpetrators. The past which is forever indelible. For Germans, they should strengthen their resolve never to repeat the sins of the ancestors. For the Jews it is to accept it happened, but not be defined by their ghastly past alone. Like the Vietnamese, both sides should give up their angst but never forgetting the History.
1
All that we can do to make sure it does not happen again is to truly accept the fact that we can all too easily be the perpetrators and we can all too easily be the victims and then make the vow to be neither. We may fail for we all have feet of clay, but failing to fulfill that oath seems so much more honorable than pretending that their is no capacity to do great evil in us despite the evidence to the contrary all around us. To those pathetic Germans who cry "How could we have known?" we should all respond with the plain answer "You could have opened your eyes."
3
One thing that Germany has not done enough of is honor those Germans who fought back against the machinery of death. Those who risked all to try to save others. Oskar Shindler, Dietrich Bonhoffer, Maximilian Kolbe, the students of the White Rose and many other heroes should be honored with a national museum in Berlin, one near the Holocaust Memorial. It isn't enough to simply recall the evil without fully remembering and honoring those who tried to do good for their fellow man under such incredibly difficult circumstances.
11
"I, too, am afraid I wouldn’t have resisted."
It happens all the time, in different shades, all across the world, including in the US. After 9/11, the majority of the American people did not resist the assault on our constitution. Slowly now, even the Republicans in Congress seem to realize that the emotions that were unleashed by the attacks have led them to renounce without much second thought what they had sworn to protect. That the Patriot Act is now being questioned was long overdue. It should never have been passed in the first place.
It is so much easier to turn a blind eye and run with the crowd than to turn around and face the stampede. Running along, you may just lose your pride and honor, doing the latter might kill you.
It happens all the time, in different shades, all across the world, including in the US. After 9/11, the majority of the American people did not resist the assault on our constitution. Slowly now, even the Republicans in Congress seem to realize that the emotions that were unleashed by the attacks have led them to renounce without much second thought what they had sworn to protect. That the Patriot Act is now being questioned was long overdue. It should never have been passed in the first place.
It is so much easier to turn a blind eye and run with the crowd than to turn around and face the stampede. Running along, you may just lose your pride and honor, doing the latter might kill you.
11
Knowing Why is just as important as Never Again. Why did the holocaust occur, why where the Jews siginaled out, why the Roma or the Communists. The Why is because they were enemies of the state. They were the portion of the population that did not conform, they were a portion of the population that was at war with Germany in their own way.
Yet it was the Jewish declaration of an economic boycott of Germany back in 1933 that set in motion the holocaust. The boycott was called to bring down the Nazi Party of Germany long before any camps were created. It was the cover of The Daily Express published in London on March 24,1933 that the first salvos of the boycott ( read: economic war )were declared.
The government of Germany responded with gradually increasing pressure. They at first called for mass immigration of what they preceived as a "fifth column" in their country, after many Jews left the remainder were viewed with suspicion.
The United States had their own internment camps primarily for the large Japanese population.
Obviously these were not in any way or manner comparable. But always try to understand what triggers extremism, there usually are reasons for extreme behavior.
Yet it was the Jewish declaration of an economic boycott of Germany back in 1933 that set in motion the holocaust. The boycott was called to bring down the Nazi Party of Germany long before any camps were created. It was the cover of The Daily Express published in London on March 24,1933 that the first salvos of the boycott ( read: economic war )were declared.
The government of Germany responded with gradually increasing pressure. They at first called for mass immigration of what they preceived as a "fifth column" in their country, after many Jews left the remainder were viewed with suspicion.
The United States had their own internment camps primarily for the large Japanese population.
Obviously these were not in any way or manner comparable. But always try to understand what triggers extremism, there usually are reasons for extreme behavior.
3
Anna Sauerbrey makes an excellent point when she discusses the impact that hearing and seeing the testimony of a Holocaust survivor makes, and another one when she contrasts it with the calm, detached way in which the defendant responds, with the euphemisms he uses to describe what can only be termed the systematic murder of people for one and one reason alone. The defendant is only expressing regret, he certainly doesn't appear to have genuine feelings of repentance. Yes, we must keep "never again" alive, we must add to readings of Anne Frank's diary all the brutally honest documentaries Spielberg, Lanzmann and others made, we must visit the Holocaust Museum here in DC and NYC, the places of remembrance which are now hallowed ground and we must continue to educate everyone. But her solution of being kind to refugees (I paraphrase) won't accomplish much if Germany and for that matter the rest of the civilized world doesn't fight against against the rising tide of chauvinism, nationalism (lower case "n" and let's keep it this way, please) and racism against those one-time refugees who are now citizens, and whose second or third generations will embrace hatred and religious fanaticism more than they already do. Mentalities do not change with just one generation and we need to work towards positive changes, toward progress, not toward a return to the darker times of our modern history.
4
I personally find the prosecution of this man for his ...presence... as a man in his early 20s 70 years ago to be more about propaganda than justice.
It's called "wagging the Nazis" - few, I think dispute the peculiar evil of the Nazi ideology as well as industrialized genocide.
But genocides have happened before, and since. The Nazis killed more Russians than anyone else - and now, ostensibly over Ukraine, western leaders feel free to snub remembrance of their unique and heavy sacrifice:
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/04/20/the-west-snubs-russia-over-v-e-day/
So its not really about justice, or remembering "never again" so much as poliitical propaganda - in this case to insulate Israel from criticism.
Criticism it would receive were it a 'normal state'.
The constant reminders about the Jewish suffering, and reminders about the suffering of no other people, Israel is allowed to escape consequences for its ongoing colonization/occupation which, I'll remind you, is unequivocally in violation of numerous UN resolutions and international law.
And while 'racism' is covered, and false quotes by Iranian leaders repeated ad nauseam, Israel's growing racism and hate escapes comment in the western press
http://www.alternet.org/world/how-israel-covers-its-ugly-racial-holy-war
Because it is forbidden to criticize such victims - even the vast bulk who were born on lands taken by force from the indigenous Muslim and Christian population.
What about their suffering - today?
It's called "wagging the Nazis" - few, I think dispute the peculiar evil of the Nazi ideology as well as industrialized genocide.
But genocides have happened before, and since. The Nazis killed more Russians than anyone else - and now, ostensibly over Ukraine, western leaders feel free to snub remembrance of their unique and heavy sacrifice:
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/04/20/the-west-snubs-russia-over-v-e-day/
So its not really about justice, or remembering "never again" so much as poliitical propaganda - in this case to insulate Israel from criticism.
Criticism it would receive were it a 'normal state'.
The constant reminders about the Jewish suffering, and reminders about the suffering of no other people, Israel is allowed to escape consequences for its ongoing colonization/occupation which, I'll remind you, is unequivocally in violation of numerous UN resolutions and international law.
And while 'racism' is covered, and false quotes by Iranian leaders repeated ad nauseam, Israel's growing racism and hate escapes comment in the western press
http://www.alternet.org/world/how-israel-covers-its-ugly-racial-holy-war
Because it is forbidden to criticize such victims - even the vast bulk who were born on lands taken by force from the indigenous Muslim and Christian population.
What about their suffering - today?
8
@ Harley Lieber: "I cannot think of any circumstances an American GI would have stood idly by and watched hundreds of thousands of civilian be murdered without objecting..even .if on pain of their own death."
Mr. Lieber, two words: My Lai. While not "thousands," those GI's PERSONALLY and directly murdered hundreds of Vietnamese civilians. Those Vietnamese did not die conveniently hidden from the GIs' eyes in a gas chamber, but feet and yards in front of them, under withering fire from their automatic weapons. Whooping and hollering, they saw the effects of their bullets on the bodies of women and children, heard the screams and saw the blood; they continued to fire into packed groups of civilians until one helicopter pilot had the guts to land and train his helicopter's guns on the GI's to make some stop the killing.
ONE, Mr. Lieber, ONE, risked his and his gunners' lives out of how many others (I know there were GI's on the ground who refused to participate) who were witnessing the slaughter?
Yes, American GI's were not the SS, and I also would like to imagine that Americans were the "good guys" in the wars we fought, but that sweet image is sadly far from the truth. I do acknowledge the hideous difference: the Germans meticulously and deliberately mechanized the killing in the camps, but does that absolve any other soldier's actions when they contravene Geneva?
Mr. Lieber, two words: My Lai. While not "thousands," those GI's PERSONALLY and directly murdered hundreds of Vietnamese civilians. Those Vietnamese did not die conveniently hidden from the GIs' eyes in a gas chamber, but feet and yards in front of them, under withering fire from their automatic weapons. Whooping and hollering, they saw the effects of their bullets on the bodies of women and children, heard the screams and saw the blood; they continued to fire into packed groups of civilians until one helicopter pilot had the guts to land and train his helicopter's guns on the GI's to make some stop the killing.
ONE, Mr. Lieber, ONE, risked his and his gunners' lives out of how many others (I know there were GI's on the ground who refused to participate) who were witnessing the slaughter?
Yes, American GI's were not the SS, and I also would like to imagine that Americans were the "good guys" in the wars we fought, but that sweet image is sadly far from the truth. I do acknowledge the hideous difference: the Germans meticulously and deliberately mechanized the killing in the camps, but does that absolve any other soldier's actions when they contravene Geneva?
19
May 1, 2015
Remember historical events indeed - and with all major journals that struggle with the wartime horrors that was surreal - and knowing the records can only part of why - but now in the age of out of control Islam violence warring the journals are quantum lead to the degrees for facts and graphic live images that that the truth to near prefection. Yet what ones does with truth is the truth that becomes the struggle for our hunman and inhuman conditions that are much what will the future will say about the old and new the times.......
jja Manhattan, N.Y.
Remember historical events indeed - and with all major journals that struggle with the wartime horrors that was surreal - and knowing the records can only part of why - but now in the age of out of control Islam violence warring the journals are quantum lead to the degrees for facts and graphic live images that that the truth to near prefection. Yet what ones does with truth is the truth that becomes the struggle for our hunman and inhuman conditions that are much what will the future will say about the old and new the times.......
jja Manhattan, N.Y.
1
The Nazis are "useful" because of their association with the problem of evil. There are of course various ways to conceptualize or explain or describe evil in different contexts. The Nazis make the problem of evil inescapable. Because the Nazis lost, debate and discussion about the problem of evil can go on.
And what should old racists make us remember, and in particular, should this memory influence the way Israel treat the Palestinians?.
3
prosecuting a 93 year old fomer book keeper and guard for stuff that happened 70 years ago, for which he was not directly responsible - sorry, is absurd.
We are absolutely saturated with Naxi/Jewish Holocaust movies, articles, etc. etc.
I don't think I can go a week without seeing some reference to the Nazis and/or their Jewish victims.
I'm sick of it - not because I approve of the Nazis, and I sure don't doubt that the official narrative of the Holocaust is mostly true...
But lots and lots and lots of other people died in ww2, and for goodness sake the US has killed MILLIONS of civilians since then. I'm not sure it matters very much that the tens of thousands of dead Iraqi kids died from lack of medicine or from shrapnel rather than from typhus in a 'camp.'
Also, frankly, the continual saturation of media with Nazi/holocaust stories is, I believe, deliberately done to prevent criticism of Israel, or perhaps of disproportionate Jewish power/influence/leading roles in entertainment and news media.
You can't criticize a victim, right?
Even one that has hundreds of nukes, a powerful military and bombs schools and hospitals to "defend itself" from ineffective rockets fired generally *after* an Israeli attack...
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/07/08/who-started-the-cycle-of-v...
Indeed, even suggesting that the saturation Nazi coverage 70 years later is, in part, about obfuscating Israeli crimes makes it unlikely this will be posted!
We are absolutely saturated with Naxi/Jewish Holocaust movies, articles, etc. etc.
I don't think I can go a week without seeing some reference to the Nazis and/or their Jewish victims.
I'm sick of it - not because I approve of the Nazis, and I sure don't doubt that the official narrative of the Holocaust is mostly true...
But lots and lots and lots of other people died in ww2, and for goodness sake the US has killed MILLIONS of civilians since then. I'm not sure it matters very much that the tens of thousands of dead Iraqi kids died from lack of medicine or from shrapnel rather than from typhus in a 'camp.'
Also, frankly, the continual saturation of media with Nazi/holocaust stories is, I believe, deliberately done to prevent criticism of Israel, or perhaps of disproportionate Jewish power/influence/leading roles in entertainment and news media.
You can't criticize a victim, right?
Even one that has hundreds of nukes, a powerful military and bombs schools and hospitals to "defend itself" from ineffective rockets fired generally *after* an Israeli attack...
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/07/08/who-started-the-cycle-of-v...
Indeed, even suggesting that the saturation Nazi coverage 70 years later is, in part, about obfuscating Israeli crimes makes it unlikely this will be posted!
5
REALLY?? The lessons so emblazoned we have our own non-nationalistic police force that targets whatever group, mostly black, with SS type impunity. If editorials continue to perpetuate the "lessons learned" crap we will NEVER seek justice for all.
Trials like these are not to make us remember, but to make us forget that maltreatment of people as groups is at least as old as the Old Testament, and has continued to this day, with no end in sight, and that we may be just as guilty of it today.
2
Much of this can be applied to the history and current state of African American and caucasian people in the US. Us priveledged people of European decent, whether our forbearers were slave owners or not need to have an awareness and conscious of what a dark person endures on a dialy basis. I hear rumblings of "thugs" and "unwilling to work" without understanding the damage history of slavery, unequal treatment via politics, education and application of justice has had on this population. I am a decendent of a Jewish family half of whom were murdered at various death camps. This has remained with me my whole life. I will say the same for our current state of affairs. "never again"
elane buchsbaum
NYC
elane buchsbaum
NYC
3
A German friend and I were walking through the National Museum in Berlin and we both had to face the truly ugly fact of how we would have behaved if we had been adults in Germany in the 1930's. It is delusional to think that we would have been valiant fighters against the Nazis and helped the Jews in any manner possible.
I also wonder why we don't have a national slavery museum and a national genocide museum that displays what we did to the native Americans. We,as well as the Germans, have shameful histories.
I also wonder why we don't have a national slavery museum and a national genocide museum that displays what we did to the native Americans. We,as well as the Germans, have shameful histories.
77
I wish the same zeal was shown in meting out justice to other perpetrators of mass murders in other parts of the World.
The Jewish people wants the World to believe that they are the only ones who have suffered and it is simply not true.
The Jewish people wants the World to believe that they are the only ones who have suffered and it is simply not true.
2
I hope Germans keep teaching about the Holocaust and continue to remind every generation of what happened.
But this isn't a unique event in human history, in fact it's been a common thread of human history that one group decides they're better than the other group and figures it's ok to kill off, or chase away the lesser group.
Every nation, religion and ethnic group in the world needs to be reminded that we are all part of one human race and no group has the right to discriminate against another.
But this isn't a unique event in human history, in fact it's been a common thread of human history that one group decides they're better than the other group and figures it's ok to kill off, or chase away the lesser group.
Every nation, religion and ethnic group in the world needs to be reminded that we are all part of one human race and no group has the right to discriminate against another.
I taught in Hamburg for two years. I also taught two years in rural North Carolina. Kids where atrocities have occurred, whether it's slavery or the Holocaust, tend to defend their heritage. These kids don't feel any sort of collective blame. And I disagree with those who think they should. It is not the job of teenagers multiple generations removed from atrocities to make amends. They deserve a fresh start.
4
Once I met a woman of a proximate age -- I was then 68 -- who was born in Germany and came here as a young woman. Knowing I was Jewish she asked delicately at some point how I felt about meeting a woman who came from Germany and if I attached blame to her.
I said to her, I don't blame you, like me you were a tiny child then so that's not the question; The question is what did your father do in the war?
The fact is, as history increasingly discloses, that pretty much every adult in Germany knew and had heard about the mass exterminations. You could not have had a son, a father, a husband, an uncle, a cousin, a close friend who served on the Eastern Front and not have known -- many millions of German men served there. They saw it, they told of it and a great many of them aided and abetted it if they did not take part directly in the camps and the Einsatzgruppen killing detachments.
Afterward they should have asked "And what did you do in the war dad?"
I said to her, I don't blame you, like me you were a tiny child then so that's not the question; The question is what did your father do in the war?
The fact is, as history increasingly discloses, that pretty much every adult in Germany knew and had heard about the mass exterminations. You could not have had a son, a father, a husband, an uncle, a cousin, a close friend who served on the Eastern Front and not have known -- many millions of German men served there. They saw it, they told of it and a great many of them aided and abetted it if they did not take part directly in the camps and the Einsatzgruppen killing detachments.
Afterward they should have asked "And what did you do in the war dad?"
Never forgetting doesn't mean never forgetting guilt, or never forgetting victimhood. It means never forgetting that history can easily repeat itself if we aren't wary of it. Ignorance, whether willfull or accidental can lead to complicity or inaction. If the world had paid greater attention to the Armenians in 1915, is it possible that the holocaust of WWII could have been prevented, or at least stymied? Does anyone really think that the legacy of the Nazis and their victims played no role in Clinton's decision to intervene in the Balkans, or the Obama administration's decision to come to the aid of the Yazidis?
2
I agree, the perpetrators will be missed. "Regular" people like Oscar Groening speak the language shared by many Germans of his generation. Regular Germans who supported and provided their professional expertise to the Nazi regime and its killing camps, did all just do their jobs. It was not politically correct to say so out loud but there is a degree of admiration for the efficient and "clean" operation of the gas chambers and the mass murder. Germans of Mr. Groening's generation liked to make a point that not all was bad about Hitler and point to the autobahn.
People like Groening do remind Germans that it was possible and that the "never again" discourse is less potent without reminders of detached and technical accounts of how Germans committed the murder of millions of Jews and other "undesired objects." Ms. Sauerbrey's grandfather's reaction was probably common across families in Germany. The disdain to talk about the atrocities of the Nazis and individual accountability was wide-spread. There was no large scale re-education and it is unlikely that the fervor and admiration for the Nazi ideology did disappear over night. It became acceptable to say "never again" without taking personal responsibility. Regular Germans did rarely discuss their Nazi past even not with their families.
People like Groening do remind Germans that it was possible and that the "never again" discourse is less potent without reminders of detached and technical accounts of how Germans committed the murder of millions of Jews and other "undesired objects." Ms. Sauerbrey's grandfather's reaction was probably common across families in Germany. The disdain to talk about the atrocities of the Nazis and individual accountability was wide-spread. There was no large scale re-education and it is unlikely that the fervor and admiration for the Nazi ideology did disappear over night. It became acceptable to say "never again" without taking personal responsibility. Regular Germans did rarely discuss their Nazi past even not with their families.
2
I very respectfully disagree with the author.
That they are dragging out men in their 90s, men who were very young, book keepers and guards, and *no one else* as American and Israeli troops have engaged in unequivocal and systematic war crimes over the past 20, 30, 40 years - to me is nauseating.
Nazi evil isn't the issue. We are reminded of it, and of no other evil, over and over and over.
And why?
I submit that by "wagging Nazis" at us [or spending 20 years crying wolf on Iranian nukes] ] it serves to distract the world, over and over, from Israel's ongoing, and illegal, occupation and racial colonization of what remains of Palestine.
The history of World War 2 after Germany was defeated was not one of slavish devotion to justice - it was of punishment, including what were crimes against humanity, visited on the German people by Americans and Soviets both.
http://irishsavant.blogspot.ie/2013/03/germania-delenda-est.html
Of course, the Soviets, and their NKVD, also committed a great number of war crimes.
But no one, only Nazis, are dragged out from time to time to hold up Nazi and the persecution of Jews {non-Jewish victims, are *never* discussed} is the only 'evil' we are reminded of.
At the same time, criticism of Israel, particularly in US media, is virtually forbidden.
I believe these show trials are part of a propaganda effort to silence such criticism.
That they are dragging out men in their 90s, men who were very young, book keepers and guards, and *no one else* as American and Israeli troops have engaged in unequivocal and systematic war crimes over the past 20, 30, 40 years - to me is nauseating.
Nazi evil isn't the issue. We are reminded of it, and of no other evil, over and over and over.
And why?
I submit that by "wagging Nazis" at us [or spending 20 years crying wolf on Iranian nukes] ] it serves to distract the world, over and over, from Israel's ongoing, and illegal, occupation and racial colonization of what remains of Palestine.
The history of World War 2 after Germany was defeated was not one of slavish devotion to justice - it was of punishment, including what were crimes against humanity, visited on the German people by Americans and Soviets both.
http://irishsavant.blogspot.ie/2013/03/germania-delenda-est.html
Of course, the Soviets, and their NKVD, also committed a great number of war crimes.
But no one, only Nazis, are dragged out from time to time to hold up Nazi and the persecution of Jews {non-Jewish victims, are *never* discussed} is the only 'evil' we are reminded of.
At the same time, criticism of Israel, particularly in US media, is virtually forbidden.
I believe these show trials are part of a propaganda effort to silence such criticism.
1
I really appreciate this piece. There's a larger issue at stake here than whether a particular 93-year-old man goes to prison, or not.
When did the title for this piece become, "What Old Nazis Make Us Remember?" Wasn't it originally captioned "Old Nazis Are Useful" or something like that?
1
One does not need a mass scale slaughter to contemplate 'the banality of evil.' Do not worry about losing such an opportunity. It exists wherever there is a murderous leader who tasks underlings to help carry out his plans. Small scale horror offers the same lesson as its larger version.
1
Ms. Sauerbrey's article is moving and instructive. I, an American Jew who has been to Auschwitz and Buchenwald, have questioned the reason for the trial of Oskar Groning. After all, he needn't have confessed. After all, he did confess. After all, he is 93. He has done his service. He has paid and paid and paid. But what Ms. Sauerbrey is saying is that we always need to confront the reason for atrocities. At this point, we've dug up much or most of what happened. The "why" is so hard to comprehend. I'm very grateful to have read this lovely essay. However, her implicit fear that we can't stop the next genocides and the next is what resonates most.
25
One of the best books on this subject is: "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust" (1996) Its American author Daniel Goldhagen "argues that the vast majority of ordinary Germans were as the title indicates "willing executioners" in the Holocaust because of a unique and virulent "eliminationist antisemitism" in the German political culture, which had developed in the preceding centuries."
An in a landmark historical researched book: "Eichmann Before Jerusalem: The Unexamined Life of a Mass Murderer (German: Eichmann vor Jerusalem – Das unbehelligte Leben eines Massenmörders)" published in 2011, the brilliant German author Bettina Stangneth, "challenges Hannah Arendt's portrayal of Adolf Eichmann in Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil as an unintelligent and thoughtless bureaucrat. Stangneth proposes that Eichmann's actions were the results of intentional, well-thought-out decisions of a man who strongly subscribed to Nazi ideology and who took pride in his actions."
For me these two books are the doors that open into the hell that was Germany, both during the Holocaust and beyond.
An in a landmark historical researched book: "Eichmann Before Jerusalem: The Unexamined Life of a Mass Murderer (German: Eichmann vor Jerusalem – Das unbehelligte Leben eines Massenmörders)" published in 2011, the brilliant German author Bettina Stangneth, "challenges Hannah Arendt's portrayal of Adolf Eichmann in Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil as an unintelligent and thoughtless bureaucrat. Stangneth proposes that Eichmann's actions were the results of intentional, well-thought-out decisions of a man who strongly subscribed to Nazi ideology and who took pride in his actions."
For me these two books are the doors that open into the hell that was Germany, both during the Holocaust and beyond.
5
We all - Mankind - are responsible. Yes, some are more responsible, the German people perhaps more than Maldivians; perhaps a German -slightly -more than I. But collectively, we let it happen. I'd like to see an international Holocaust day established; a day where all of us stop and remember.
When one hears the vitriolic, hyperbolic rhetoric from the likes of Limbaugh, Ingraham and Colter, as well as Aile's Fox News, which in turn feeds Republican politicians their talking points -- talking points demonizing compromise with those of politically progressive views or simply having a "D" after their title -- I can readily imagine an American brand of authoritarianism which morphs into something very frightening. That this country could experience a political witch-hunt worse than McCarthysim is a very real possibility given many of my neighbors' "closed-circuit," right-wing media consumption.
1
I start with the joy of meeting another individual
each person a world of experience and knowledge
each with their own beauty. When individuality
is not recognized then we hear the slanders
that continue to be made against "those others"
hatred is then nurtured.
Self awareness is essential to avoid the human
tendency of suspicion leading to intolerance.
We are all potential perpetrators.
each person a world of experience and knowledge
each with their own beauty. When individuality
is not recognized then we hear the slanders
that continue to be made against "those others"
hatred is then nurtured.
Self awareness is essential to avoid the human
tendency of suspicion leading to intolerance.
We are all potential perpetrators.
How many American government workers, law-enforcement agencies, and for that matter average American citizens have been sanctioned in any way for the illegal Japanese concentration camps? Or segregation of children in public schools based on racial classifications? Shirly there was great harm in that--anyone for allowing African-Americans of that era to seek criminal charges against the enforcers of those laws? I would suspect most would protest even civil cases against the government, seeking monetary damages.
2
All over the world, in Germany, Great Britain, the United States, and other countries, Nazism and the personal idolatry of A. Hitler are alive and well in any number of right wing racist nativist movements. The "old Nazis" aren't needed to remind us -- the new Nazis do quite a good job. Since these movements have arisen under various guises throughout human history, the impulse must exist within the core of humanity. "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?" We all know because it exists in the best of us. There is no need for any German to have a sense of "collective guilt" it is a guilt we all bear. We don't need the old Nazis, but we do need the testimony of the survivors -- they are the ones who remind us and warn us of the evil within humankind.
The most thought provoking aspect of the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC (and in some ways the most horrifying) is the section that highlights those who hid Jewish neighbors, often at the risk of their own family.
After seeing the numbing millions and millions of dead, we see the righteous and have to say "so few, so few".
After seeing the numbing millions and millions of dead, we see the righteous and have to say "so few, so few".
2
Pivoting from Anna's own concern about her son, "How will he understand his own responsibility, as a German, to combat ideologies of (EMPIRE) hatred and prevent crimes against humanity?"
What we Americans can learn from the Nazi Empire --- and which 'our' OSS and CIA already learned on Hitler's dime --- is that the Rel 1.0 of a crude and merely single-party Vichy facade of Empire in France, could be guilefully modernized into a much more sophisticated Rel 2.0 dual-party Vichy-political facade of fully Disguised Global Capitalist/hustler Empire right inside the Fatherland (oops, Homeland) once the next-to-the-last "Evil Empire" was no longer of concern to building the first truly Global Empire.
A few hundred public-intellectuals and academics of Empire like the late Hannah Arendt, Chalmers Johnson, Howard Zinn, and those still living; Chomsky, Hardt, Negri, Blum, Wolin, Parenti, et al. and the most 'politically conscious' Black community know the truth that Arendt presciently warned of --- "Empire abroad entails tyranny at home".
Every day, larger groups such as; the poor, the unemployed, the working poor, the slipping middle classes, the Wall Street looted class, and the 47% that Romney said the system (of Empire) could ignore ARE fast beginning to understand, like the black community, that they are essentially 'subjects' of an Empire and not citizens of any kind of functional democracy.
What we Americans can learn from the Nazi Empire --- and which 'our' OSS and CIA already learned on Hitler's dime --- is that the Rel 1.0 of a crude and merely single-party Vichy facade of Empire in France, could be guilefully modernized into a much more sophisticated Rel 2.0 dual-party Vichy-political facade of fully Disguised Global Capitalist/hustler Empire right inside the Fatherland (oops, Homeland) once the next-to-the-last "Evil Empire" was no longer of concern to building the first truly Global Empire.
A few hundred public-intellectuals and academics of Empire like the late Hannah Arendt, Chalmers Johnson, Howard Zinn, and those still living; Chomsky, Hardt, Negri, Blum, Wolin, Parenti, et al. and the most 'politically conscious' Black community know the truth that Arendt presciently warned of --- "Empire abroad entails tyranny at home".
Every day, larger groups such as; the poor, the unemployed, the working poor, the slipping middle classes, the Wall Street looted class, and the 47% that Romney said the system (of Empire) could ignore ARE fast beginning to understand, like the black community, that they are essentially 'subjects' of an Empire and not citizens of any kind of functional democracy.
1
Spend a day at the Documentation Center in Cologne or perhaps the new one that opened just yesterday in Munich. These Centers, found throughout Germany, "document" how the Nazi intolerance of the early 1930's turned into the murders of the late 30's and 40's. It is a real eye-opener.
The NS and its supporters were guilty of a lot, and as a nation and its people, Germany hasn't forgotten. Gronig admits he took part, and I imagine he will get his due. It doesn't excuse any of those that took part and were not held to account.
The NS and its supporters were guilty of a lot, and as a nation and its people, Germany hasn't forgotten. Gronig admits he took part, and I imagine he will get his due. It doesn't excuse any of those that took part and were not held to account.
Remembering or not forgetting does not prevent Genocides. That is a wishful thinking.
If we do not implement threshold level alerts and actions, we can just watch genocides happens again and again. Look the history and tell me how many genocide we witnessed since Holocaust.
It is happening, because we do not have an universal alert and action system.
So when Circumstances maturates genocidal forces immediately popping up in motion. Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan, Yugoslavia are the stark examples, Syria, Libya are already experiencing Genocides and we are thinking that is it Genocide? Yes it is. Sectarian forces exterminating people in thousands and we are just watching, worse we are calling the event as terrorist organization actions which diminishes the atrocity perpetrated.
Genocides are happening right now in front of our eyes. I am amazed to people anger and frustration towards the German people in Nazi time, when they express their acknowledgement level about Holocaust.
hey , what is your acknowledgement level about ongoing genocides, we read in this comment section exactly these words. let the Muslim sort out their sectarian differences which has been a problem almost 13 century, we cannot do anything.
That is my friend indicates , Circumstances always enable Genocides. just saying.
If we do not implement threshold level alerts and actions, we can just watch genocides happens again and again. Look the history and tell me how many genocide we witnessed since Holocaust.
It is happening, because we do not have an universal alert and action system.
So when Circumstances maturates genocidal forces immediately popping up in motion. Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan, Yugoslavia are the stark examples, Syria, Libya are already experiencing Genocides and we are thinking that is it Genocide? Yes it is. Sectarian forces exterminating people in thousands and we are just watching, worse we are calling the event as terrorist organization actions which diminishes the atrocity perpetrated.
Genocides are happening right now in front of our eyes. I am amazed to people anger and frustration towards the German people in Nazi time, when they express their acknowledgement level about Holocaust.
hey , what is your acknowledgement level about ongoing genocides, we read in this comment section exactly these words. let the Muslim sort out their sectarian differences which has been a problem almost 13 century, we cannot do anything.
That is my friend indicates , Circumstances always enable Genocides. just saying.
1
The public might be more concerned about 'New Nazis.'. They are readily visible with the same lust for oppression, hegemony, imperialism, racial and state sovereignty, and perpetual war. It doesn't take much imagination: they are right in front of us, right here, today. And it's 1935 all over again: war looms.
1
We should admire the German people for addressing their culpability in an experiment in genocide. How the Germans get to "never again," whether as an exercise in ideology or collective guilt, and here they may be the same thing, at least the effort is made.
In the US, we still have not adequately addressed the long genocidal campaign against our native peoples. It is not enough to acknowledge our treatment of the Japanese (and let us not forget the internment of Italian and German citizens) during WW II. The America of today was built on the blood, displacement, and confinement on reservations of native peoples whose land (an entire continent) and resources our forefathers coveted.
It seems until we as a species can recognize ourselves in others, such all too human conduct will continue to occur. I applaud Germany for at least continuing to learn the lessons of the Holocaust so it will not happen again.
In the US, we still have not adequately addressed the long genocidal campaign against our native peoples. It is not enough to acknowledge our treatment of the Japanese (and let us not forget the internment of Italian and German citizens) during WW II. The America of today was built on the blood, displacement, and confinement on reservations of native peoples whose land (an entire continent) and resources our forefathers coveted.
It seems until we as a species can recognize ourselves in others, such all too human conduct will continue to occur. I applaud Germany for at least continuing to learn the lessons of the Holocaust so it will not happen again.
2
My mother was born in the United States in 1917 in Chicago. We were talking one day about what was happening to the jews before the U. S. entered the war and why we wouldn't let more of them emigrate while they still could. I said, "If we had known what was going on, we would probably have let them come here." My mother replied, " I knew and all my friends knew. I don't see how the government could have missed it." So it's not just the Germans who have to be careful about turning people away in the name of the financial stability etc. It's everyone. Even us. Even if they're illegal children, or refugees of every race color and degree of education.
53
I moved to America two decades ago because I personally experienced Nazi-style fascism, atrocities and crimes against the unprotected civilians in my native Yugoslavia, Bosnia and Sarajevo.
I was a civil engineer by training. I never wanted to write, analyze or publically speak until the genocidal politicians destroyed my world and a way of life.
You certainly know when you were born to do something. I was born to analyze and solve the problems.
Back in Bosnia in the early nineties I wrote several columns for the leading newspapers. I knew nothing about journalism and had no personal connections. The editors published my columns although they said that what I claimed was impossible and would never happen.
All those predictions materialized in less than 18 months, from a bitter split between Milosevic and Karadzic that used to be the closest allies, cessation of fighting between the Croatian and Bosnian Armies and forging a brand new alliance or ending the war in Bosnia by directly negotiating with the butcher from Belgrade.
I still remember the first compliments I received as a columnist.
One editor put my column on the very front page with the New Year addresses of president, prime minister and army chief. The other told me that I managed to say two times more in far less space than his professional columnists.
I tried to do the same here, but nobody needed any help.I would put the value of my discarded advices regarding the three wars and economy at $10 trillion.
I was a civil engineer by training. I never wanted to write, analyze or publically speak until the genocidal politicians destroyed my world and a way of life.
You certainly know when you were born to do something. I was born to analyze and solve the problems.
Back in Bosnia in the early nineties I wrote several columns for the leading newspapers. I knew nothing about journalism and had no personal connections. The editors published my columns although they said that what I claimed was impossible and would never happen.
All those predictions materialized in less than 18 months, from a bitter split between Milosevic and Karadzic that used to be the closest allies, cessation of fighting between the Croatian and Bosnian Armies and forging a brand new alliance or ending the war in Bosnia by directly negotiating with the butcher from Belgrade.
I still remember the first compliments I received as a columnist.
One editor put my column on the very front page with the New Year addresses of president, prime minister and army chief. The other told me that I managed to say two times more in far less space than his professional columnists.
I tried to do the same here, but nobody needed any help.I would put the value of my discarded advices regarding the three wars and economy at $10 trillion.
14
Having read several comments stating, that things like that can't happen anymore today and that we all have advanced as society i just want you to remind how easily the Bush government seduced average people into the iraq war with faked evidence, and how willingly citizen were giving up some basic rights of freedom because of a law with the euphemistic name "patriot act". Naming a law that allows dodging privacy patriot act is a severe lapse.
49
Let's don't mix the Genocide occurred in past century and Holocaust.
Holocaust has a special place and special importance in world psyche. what makes so apart then other genocides.
Holocaust
-Extremely well planned against non armed minority group
-The perpetrators eventually lost the war and captured
-Victims created one the rare role model Country which is dedicated as a sanctuary for Jewish people.
-Victors of the war also pursued very aggressively to punishments against perpetrators.
- Germany is in Europe, so western civilization noted the Holocaust was great event in human history will not forgotten.
Other genocides in 20th century
Armenian Genocide
- Perpetrators eventually won the war and join the western world
- Victims join the Communist sphere and forgotten.
- Victims cannot establish a strong country so they were unable to raise their voice
- Even the recognition is not realized worldwide.
Rwanda, Cambodia
-Perpetrators are again stay strong, Victims cannot find a support from the world.
-Events took place in neglected part of the world.
Jewish holocaust has a special place in our psyche, it will endure much longer time but this will not prevent the future genocides. Because we in most of the times even cannot predict and act against these events.
Holocaust has a special place and special importance in world psyche. what makes so apart then other genocides.
Holocaust
-Extremely well planned against non armed minority group
-The perpetrators eventually lost the war and captured
-Victims created one the rare role model Country which is dedicated as a sanctuary for Jewish people.
-Victors of the war also pursued very aggressively to punishments against perpetrators.
- Germany is in Europe, so western civilization noted the Holocaust was great event in human history will not forgotten.
Other genocides in 20th century
Armenian Genocide
- Perpetrators eventually won the war and join the western world
- Victims join the Communist sphere and forgotten.
- Victims cannot establish a strong country so they were unable to raise their voice
- Even the recognition is not realized worldwide.
Rwanda, Cambodia
-Perpetrators are again stay strong, Victims cannot find a support from the world.
-Events took place in neglected part of the world.
Jewish holocaust has a special place in our psyche, it will endure much longer time but this will not prevent the future genocides. Because we in most of the times even cannot predict and act against these events.
10
"Victors of the war also pursued very aggressively to punishments against perpetrators."
It appears that the victors aggressively pursued the perpetrators, but reality is different. The vast majority of Nazi leaders were not punished, or received a slap on the hand, and were allowed to resume their roles in business and government. Many of Germany's post WWII politicians and business leaders were "former" Nazis. Fear of "the communist threat" was the main justification for allowing most of the "former" Nazis to continue with business as usual, as well as the need to rebuild Germany. One good article about this is "From Dictatorship to Democracy: The Role Ex-Nazis Played in Early West Germany" from Der Spiegel. The American Wall Street lawyer, John J. McCloy, is reported to have been the key official of the allies who protected the Nazis from prosecution.
It appears that the victors aggressively pursued the perpetrators, but reality is different. The vast majority of Nazi leaders were not punished, or received a slap on the hand, and were allowed to resume their roles in business and government. Many of Germany's post WWII politicians and business leaders were "former" Nazis. Fear of "the communist threat" was the main justification for allowing most of the "former" Nazis to continue with business as usual, as well as the need to rebuild Germany. One good article about this is "From Dictatorship to Democracy: The Role Ex-Nazis Played in Early West Germany" from Der Spiegel. The American Wall Street lawyer, John J. McCloy, is reported to have been the key official of the allies who protected the Nazis from prosecution.
4
What a brilliant article; a careful deconstruction of the "banality of evil" concept in a way that (I suspect) triggers chills, introspection, changed laws, and actions. I have been to one too many Holocaust and Jewish museums in Europe. That is history. But what to make of the Parisian paramilitary gendarme asking an Arabic teenager why he is so far from home (he must be in the posh neighborhood to burn cars, right?); or the Parisian newspaper chagrined that too many TV stations are owned by Jews, and that French soccer team has too many blacks. New bottle, same wine.
Old Nazis are useful for all the reason Madam Sauerbry says, and because public trial of people responsible for Soviet purges, Khmer Rouge, Rwanda, Armenia did not occur to the extent they should have. We are all worse off for it.
The correlation between a slow (and misguided) response from the ECB and the escalation of hatred in Europe toward immigrants are not co-incidental. Of course boxcars will rumble through Europe again. The reason they don't rumble in other parts of the world today is because of the shortage of boxcars, rail stock, and barbed wire. Not because the intent does not exist, and despite our dedication to producing economic environments in which hatred can thrive. Srebrenica happened. There was once a Chechnya, and a Ukraine.
If we cannot hear old surviving Nazis in our minds, the boxcars will rumble earlier than I imagined.
Kalidan
Old Nazis are useful for all the reason Madam Sauerbry says, and because public trial of people responsible for Soviet purges, Khmer Rouge, Rwanda, Armenia did not occur to the extent they should have. We are all worse off for it.
The correlation between a slow (and misguided) response from the ECB and the escalation of hatred in Europe toward immigrants are not co-incidental. Of course boxcars will rumble through Europe again. The reason they don't rumble in other parts of the world today is because of the shortage of boxcars, rail stock, and barbed wire. Not because the intent does not exist, and despite our dedication to producing economic environments in which hatred can thrive. Srebrenica happened. There was once a Chechnya, and a Ukraine.
If we cannot hear old surviving Nazis in our minds, the boxcars will rumble earlier than I imagined.
Kalidan
14
How ironic. "Never again?" Generosity to refugees? We have refugees here in the US, they're called African Americans. Most of us in the US have never come to terms with the atrocities perpetrated upon the black people in this country and abroad. Many here have forgotten and don't care.
What do we do in our schools to inoculate our children against "creeping racism?" What do we say to our neighbors and family members who exhibit racist ideologies?
Don't be mistaken, we do not have a final solution but the violence we beget can only beget more violence. We are not Nazis, we are good Germans.
What do we do in our schools to inoculate our children against "creeping racism?" What do we say to our neighbors and family members who exhibit racist ideologies?
Don't be mistaken, we do not have a final solution but the violence we beget can only beget more violence. We are not Nazis, we are good Germans.
12
I hope that was irony when you called the african americans refugees.
8
With all due respect, you need to study far more deeply about the topic. And when you attempt to get into a comparison of suffering - the horrors of slavery versus the abomination that was the Shoah - you take us down a dark hole. Please don't.
My Native American great grandmother would ask about her people? You forgot to mention them..
Have you ever wondered why the regular Germans were quiet and didn’t protest strongly enough against the inhuman treatment of the minorities, especially the Jews?
Have you ever tried to speak the truth here in modern America?
Have you ever tried to get a column published in our leading newspapers confronting the conventional wisdom and pointing out at our misconceptions and delusions?
If you ever tried the latter you would much easier understand the former topic...
Have you ever tried to speak the truth here in modern America?
Have you ever tried to get a column published in our leading newspapers confronting the conventional wisdom and pointing out at our misconceptions and delusions?
If you ever tried the latter you would much easier understand the former topic...
24
The films are there.
The vast majority of people in the world were not born when these horrific events took place. We cannot let this past excuse questionable behavior today.
Certainly, we should do all we can to prevent a repetition. That includes stopping the Japanese from killing far more Chinese than the Germans did Jews.
But, Israel cannot excuse its current questionable actions by bringing up this past. Even if this were a recent event, the people that they now oppress had nothing to do with it.
Certainly, we should do all we can to prevent a repetition. That includes stopping the Japanese from killing far more Chinese than the Germans did Jews.
But, Israel cannot excuse its current questionable actions by bringing up this past. Even if this were a recent event, the people that they now oppress had nothing to do with it.
10
Your comment is a perfect explanation of how ordinary people do nothing as anti-Semitism swirls around them. You're quick to condemn Israel for its so-called "current questionable actions," but say nothing of the horrors perpetuated upon them by suicide bombers and the like. Maybe if the rest of the world hadn't embraced anti-Semitism so vehemently during the past two millennium, the world would be a vastly better place.
1
What we all need to learn is that there is nothing unique about
German culture that made those horrors possible. All societies have the capability, given the "proper" leadership and circumstances to perpetrate such crimes. The internment camps for those of Japanese descent in WWII were merely a toe in the water, but they are an indication of what we might have been willing to do given sufficient motivation. The invasion of Iraq and the current uproar about undocumented immigration as if it were an existential threat are more recent examples. Germany has certainly done the right thing in keeping the memory of past crimes alive. I wish the rest of us would consider how such might occur here.
German culture that made those horrors possible. All societies have the capability, given the "proper" leadership and circumstances to perpetrate such crimes. The internment camps for those of Japanese descent in WWII were merely a toe in the water, but they are an indication of what we might have been willing to do given sufficient motivation. The invasion of Iraq and the current uproar about undocumented immigration as if it were an existential threat are more recent examples. Germany has certainly done the right thing in keeping the memory of past crimes alive. I wish the rest of us would consider how such might occur here.
26
None of us can ever forget, but let's not allow that terrible time to justify certain Nationalistic inequities in Israel today.
18
#1:"After all, that's how things went in a concentration camp."#2: "It's sort of a retaliatory gesture...its one of those nebulous things..."
Statement #1 is from Ms. Sauerbrey's op-ed.
Statement #2 is from Mr. Klotz in a NYT article on Freddie Gray's injury and "police rough rides".
Very unsettling!
Statement #1 is from Ms. Sauerbrey's op-ed.
Statement #2 is from Mr. Klotz in a NYT article on Freddie Gray's injury and "police rough rides".
Very unsettling!
12
The separate peoples of the world defining themselves by the horrendous treatment their people suffered at the hands of genocidal oppressors must, I feel step out from under this umbrella in order to find their better higher destiny and their individual and group integrity by joining with all those who have suffered genocidal horror.
Weather it is parental violent cruelty, nationalist oppression, religious insanity, or racial hate we must come to a place where we take charge of our story and create identities where we claim our power and cease letting those who perpetrate the insanity of hate define who we are. Stop identifying as victims.
Jews should join with all the world's peoples who suffered like fates and fight for all those still suffering. Demanding justice and protection from the madness that grips all too many. For it is certainly not only Jews who suffered the inexplicable insanity that we see nearly everyday all around the globe.
Demand justice for all of the worlds peoples. This is a more powerful and relevant message for all who crave peace and justice. Let us speak with one voice.
Weather it is parental violent cruelty, nationalist oppression, religious insanity, or racial hate we must come to a place where we take charge of our story and create identities where we claim our power and cease letting those who perpetrate the insanity of hate define who we are. Stop identifying as victims.
Jews should join with all the world's peoples who suffered like fates and fight for all those still suffering. Demanding justice and protection from the madness that grips all too many. For it is certainly not only Jews who suffered the inexplicable insanity that we see nearly everyday all around the globe.
Demand justice for all of the worlds peoples. This is a more powerful and relevant message for all who crave peace and justice. Let us speak with one voice.
7
In your little homily, you appear to be completely unaware that Jews played a very active role in the black civil rights movement in the U.S., where they marched side by side with blacks and supported their cause.
1
Never again doesn't work. It didn't work. at least in world wide. In the same country it may work some certain time, but world, history proves that never again is not working.
Circumstances are the main denominators regardless of the era. What was the conditions prepared Rwanda, Srebrenica. No body UN, EU or USA couldn't move finger to prevent these crimes happened.
I always believed that Jewish holocaust has its own history detached from the rest of genocides. Jews and western world made this kind of crime will never happen to Jewish people. Because vigilance is there at least still exist, I cannot guarantee 1 century later.
But for rest of the world, this level of vigilance and alertness is not exist, What happened in Syria is clear example. UN and all others cannot devise a protection for millions. hundreds of thousands exterminated in sectarian war.
in 21st century we are not immune against genocides. It can be occur. because We are not looking the subject in pure terms, we are tying these events in their respective circumstances, that allows genocides happen.
Circumstances are the main denominators regardless of the era. What was the conditions prepared Rwanda, Srebrenica. No body UN, EU or USA couldn't move finger to prevent these crimes happened.
I always believed that Jewish holocaust has its own history detached from the rest of genocides. Jews and western world made this kind of crime will never happen to Jewish people. Because vigilance is there at least still exist, I cannot guarantee 1 century later.
But for rest of the world, this level of vigilance and alertness is not exist, What happened in Syria is clear example. UN and all others cannot devise a protection for millions. hundreds of thousands exterminated in sectarian war.
in 21st century we are not immune against genocides. It can be occur. because We are not looking the subject in pure terms, we are tying these events in their respective circumstances, that allows genocides happen.
6
The article is written using style and vocabulary that is pure NYT. The authors thoughts feelings and concepts are welcome and honest, but I've always found articles like this to be sanitized holocaust-related "Times-speak". The holocaust is so mind-numbing, I'd rather spend my time watching the HBO documentary on the British filming or, a kick in the gut by visiting one of the holocaust museums where one gets a steady diet of horror, detail and misery, as opposed to reading the narrative "thoughts of my forefathers' not so tranquil, murder-tolerating hours".
2
Germans share an eternal collective guilt for the Holocaust. One need only look at Heydrich's Killing Camps...These were not concentration camps like Auschwitz Birkenau where people were warehoused and worked to death, gassed and cremated but were designed solely for the purposes of a quick gassing and cremation. Treblinka and Sobibor were killing camps. At Treblinka alone 850K Jews were murdered in about 12 months. Their bodies thrown into pits and then, on Himmler's orders, burned in large open "roasts".
Germans need to figure out how, after the last survivor and witness are gone, and last murderer has died, they will keep the memory of this tragedy alive. So, far they made compulsory high school students visiting of Dachau and other camps within Germany. These are very sanitized field trips with meticulous ( German) attention paid to characterizing the Nazi's as criminals...and not representative of a typical German civilian at the time.
I cannot think of any circumstances an American GI would have stood idly by and watched hundreds of thousands of civilian be murdered without objecting..even .if on pain of their own death. There are few if any examples of any German soldiers...SS or Wehrmacht doing this. Given the scale of the murdering there should have been hundreds protesting....but there were none.We here they were nauseated and drunk while crying out their orders...but not objecting and refusing to follow orders.
Germans need to figure out how, after the last survivor and witness are gone, and last murderer has died, they will keep the memory of this tragedy alive. So, far they made compulsory high school students visiting of Dachau and other camps within Germany. These are very sanitized field trips with meticulous ( German) attention paid to characterizing the Nazi's as criminals...and not representative of a typical German civilian at the time.
I cannot think of any circumstances an American GI would have stood idly by and watched hundreds of thousands of civilian be murdered without objecting..even .if on pain of their own death. There are few if any examples of any German soldiers...SS or Wehrmacht doing this. Given the scale of the murdering there should have been hundreds protesting....but there were none.We here they were nauseated and drunk while crying out their orders...but not objecting and refusing to follow orders.
7
"I cannot think of any circumstances an American GI would have stood idly by and watched hundreds of thousands of civilian be murdered without objecting"
Perhaps, perhaps not. Not many Americans protested the imprisonment of Japanese-Americans during WWII by their own government, on their own soil. Even the U.S. Supreme Court (in the disgraceful Korematsu decision) stood behind the government's actions. Many American GIs turned a blind eye to war crimes in Vietnam, in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison, etc. To this day, a significant number of Americans support our government's torture and 'extraordinary rendition' policies, despite the lack of evidence that the policies work.
I hope we never find out the accuracy of your prediction because I fear what the answer could and might be.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Not many Americans protested the imprisonment of Japanese-Americans during WWII by their own government, on their own soil. Even the U.S. Supreme Court (in the disgraceful Korematsu decision) stood behind the government's actions. Many American GIs turned a blind eye to war crimes in Vietnam, in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison, etc. To this day, a significant number of Americans support our government's torture and 'extraordinary rendition' policies, despite the lack of evidence that the policies work.
I hope we never find out the accuracy of your prediction because I fear what the answer could and might be.
No circumstances of American GI's standing by??
How about William Calley Jr,and 25 other GI's in the Mỹ Lai Massacre .
Vietnam, March 1968. One of the more obvious incidents.
How about William Calley Jr,and 25 other GI's in the Mỹ Lai Massacre .
Vietnam, March 1968. One of the more obvious incidents.
I think perhaps you are underestimating the power of the survival instinct and the universal fear of extreme pain and death not only for oneself but for one's loved ones. The dissenters put themselves and any one who supported them in extreme danger. I am not justifying the complicity of the German people in what happened. It is important to understand however that the Holocaust was a human tragedy not just a German tragedy. There were people who protested against what was happening. Unless they escaped, they all paid with their lives. Cowardice and self-preservation as well as courage and self-sacrifice are both found in all races and all nationalities.
Though Mr Groning should be punished, but Germany should not be made to feel guilty today. That was a different time and ideology that led to the war. Rather, people should learn from the mistakes that were made in following wrong socio-political models then and make sure that we do not repeat them.
5
I can't read this without thinking of the famous Milgram Experiment: An ordinary person was brought in and ordered to deliver a series of ever-increasing electric shocks to what they thought was another ordinary person as part of a test of memory (in fact, the other person was an actor). The other person, who was on the other side of the wall, would make noises of increasing distress, including a blood-curdling scream, and eventually stop responding at all to anything. Milgram's question was what percentage of people would stand up to the experimenter and stop delivering the shocks, and at what voltage.
How many would you guess would stop?
Only 1 out of 3 did. And none of the people who were tested tried to shut down the experiment (which, remember, they believed to be potentially fatal). That was with no coercive authority whatsoever - the experimenter would simply tell the person being tested that it was necessary to the experiment to continue.
How many would you guess would stop?
Only 1 out of 3 did. And none of the people who were tested tried to shut down the experiment (which, remember, they believed to be potentially fatal). That was with no coercive authority whatsoever - the experimenter would simply tell the person being tested that it was necessary to the experiment to continue.
21
Important point. What really added to the "German Guilt" was their painstaking record keeping. The portions of the Holocaust prosecuted in Roumania, Hungary, USSR etc, both by leaders and anarchis others with essentially no Nazi involvement perhaps because little or no records were maintained, make the guilt far broader and far more antisemetic history. The Milgram experiment is somewhat relevent but eons of antisemitism must certainly be the overwhelming "explanation" of what occured--and most certainly that can not be dismissed as a mere manifestation of humanities psychological propensity.
It seems every comment on this article as well as those made on almost any other are offered by what we know as ordinary citizens and ordinary citizens exercise no control of the leadership of their countries.
Ordinary citizens don't sign treaties or make secret decisions or take a nation to war. Ordinary citizens follow their leadership. Ordinary citizens are shouted down or shunted to the fringe or even murdered. Ordinary citizens are bought and sold today as they have and will always be traded. Ordinary citizens follow orders.
The upper echelon who need too be brought to trial did not escape through the assistance of ordinary citizens, they were aided then as now by others in the upper echelon of other nations; the extraordinary.
Perhaps the ordinary citizens will wake up to the fact they are ordinary because they allow themselves to be considered as such, but I don't harbor that dream.
Ordinary citizens don't sign treaties or make secret decisions or take a nation to war. Ordinary citizens follow their leadership. Ordinary citizens are shouted down or shunted to the fringe or even murdered. Ordinary citizens are bought and sold today as they have and will always be traded. Ordinary citizens follow orders.
The upper echelon who need too be brought to trial did not escape through the assistance of ordinary citizens, they were aided then as now by others in the upper echelon of other nations; the extraordinary.
Perhaps the ordinary citizens will wake up to the fact they are ordinary because they allow themselves to be considered as such, but I don't harbor that dream.
9
When I visited the camp in Dachau there were several busloads of German school children there. They were stunned, most of them crying. I say "the camp in Dachau" because, unlike Auschwitz, the Dachau camp is right there in the Bavarian town. One has to be blind to not see.
12
"They were stunned, most of them crying"
Somehow, I don't believe you on this, but in any event, isn't it strange how Israel can bomb schools and hospitals and UN posts in Gaza, and there has been virtually no follow-up in the media about how they are recovering.
But I've heard some reference to the naxis perhaps 100 times.
Somehow, I don't believe you on this, but in any event, isn't it strange how Israel can bomb schools and hospitals and UN posts in Gaza, and there has been virtually no follow-up in the media about how they are recovering.
But I've heard some reference to the naxis perhaps 100 times.
If you really want to see how wretched the Nazis were, tune in to the American Hero Channel and you will see actual war films produced by the BBC. I ask myself, how did Hitler and his SS got away with these killing for so long. Groning is 93 years old. How did he escaped justice after 1945?
6
Germany was not particularly cooperative. They used every loophole and strategy they could to delay the process. Remarkable, but they got away, for what can now one feel towards a feeble 93 yr old as opposed to a healthy 30 year old, with blood not yet dry on his hands?
One afternoon, when I was a teenager, I asked my grandfather: “Didn’t you know back then?” His answer took me by surprise. “How could we have known?” he said, with a violence that revealed more than his actual answer.
Excuse me, but have you ever heard of hyper-reality? where entire cultures agree to be self-hypnotized and in denial? Your grandfather, and thousands of his compatriots were basically a nation cult that willingly walked around in a sef-induced lie. Stop making excuses for him--and his entire country.
Excuse me, but have you ever heard of hyper-reality? where entire cultures agree to be self-hypnotized and in denial? Your grandfather, and thousands of his compatriots were basically a nation cult that willingly walked around in a sef-induced lie. Stop making excuses for him--and his entire country.
10
I don't think that's the point she wanted to make- of course Germans knew what was going on. It's just too hard to admit to that, so they some deny ever knowing. It's the same with the US- shiploads of Jews, Gypsies, etc. escaped to the US, and were sent away back to Europe. By then, we knew exactly what was going on.
1
I didn't at all get the impression that Ms. Sauerbrey was making excuses for her grandfather or her country. To the contrary, she seems to be trying to find ways to keep the memory alive after the last nazis are dead and gone so that it never again becomes routine.
1
"Excuse me, but have you ever heard of hyper-reality? where entire cultures agree to be self-hypnotized and in denial?"
Fox News and its viewers comes to mind.
Fox News and its viewers comes to mind.
I would like to think that articles on Nazism are intended to prevent a recurrence and not merely to remind the Gentile world about the unique suffering of Jews in a holocaust that also destroyed an even greater number of "non-Jews". If so, then we need to recall that Hitler was convinced that England and America, with their fiercely capitalist economic power structure would eventually join the Nazi cause out of fear of the Soviet system. When Japan surrendered, POW camp commanders announced to the allied POWs "We hope you join us in defeating the common threat of Communism." Today, in Eastern Europe, the USA, England, and the EU are using economic tactics to isolate Russia, surround Russia with NATO forces and, most disturbingly, supporting economically and militarily Ukrainian neo-Nazis. The history of Ukrainian support for ultra nationalist fascism can not be denied by any historian. (Google "Babi Yar") Stop looking back at the Nazi threat. There is a whole new one coming and it is being ironically supported by America, England, and incredibly, Zionists.
11
Reading is not enough. The camps were visual horrors and it is the visual images that must be seen by modern Germans. I would suggest the one night a year, all German TV is suspended and "Memory of The Camps" be broadcast. If the images in this documentary do not stir the insides of latter day Germans then there is no hope.
2
should we not be rounding up the Japanese war criminals as well?? the ones who ran the camps responsible for the killing of POWs. seems to me we have a one sided view of WWII and continue to forget what happened in the south pacific. the estimate is about 6% of POWs did not survive the Nazi camps. but about 35% were killed in the Japanese camps. i find it disgusting that Japan gets a free pass while Germany continues to boil on the stove.
26
The Japanese did not get a free pass. Many Japanese generals and camp commanders were tried and executed, including Tojo. American social historians do not choose to highlight the grotesque savory of the Japanese, for political reasons. The Japanese performed grotesque medical experiments on Allied prisoners, including Americans. They took women into forced sexual slavery, from Korea, Indonesia, the Netherlands, Britain and France. They tortured POWs and civilian prisoners, took their red cross packages, and denied them medical care. They engaged in brutal warfare against civilian populations (Nanking, Singapore, the Philippines, Hong Kong) and captured, interned and tortured civilian prisoners of Allied nations, including women and children. But after the war the US turned its single minded focus on the Communist threat, and soft pedaled Japanese atrocities, although the British, Dutch and French did not. We can and should hold Japan accountable, even today. But we also should recognize our own moral fragility, our continuing racism and hated-based culture, our failure to learn the lessons of history, our failure to be the better example. It does not excuse Japan, but it makes it a lot more difficult to point a finger, at anyone.
1
It's partly because in the United States, we rounded up Japanese into camps but never once cared about a German or Italian
The key point in the entire piece is found is the final sentence. "Old Nazis" are useful b/c their first-person accounts are necessary to provide both context and definition for future generations of Germans. It is not enough to never forget; children born 40, 50, 60 years after VE Day need to understand "why" something like the Holocaust could occur, i.e., how normal, ordinary citizens who love their children and are kind to animals, could become cogs in (or unseeing witnesses to) a killing machine, in hopes of guarding against its repetition.
18
Unfortunately, there are plenty of neo-Nazis popping up here, there, and everywhere there's a smidgen of white supremacy. We seem to be denying that reality. In fact, the US and the European Union appear to be finding them useful in Ukraine, where their status has been elevated beyond random street thugs.
11
History is written by the victors.
If Germany had won the war the SS would be heroes for "solving" the Jewish Problem. The Americans would be war criminals for dropping the A Bomb and all the other bombing of civilians.
If Germany had won the war the SS would be heroes for "solving" the Jewish Problem. The Americans would be war criminals for dropping the A Bomb and all the other bombing of civilians.
7
So are you condoning what the Nazis did?
Quite wrong. Right is right, and wrong is wrong. Moral people will always see through this, regardless of who wins in the end...
Hopefully there would still have been a resistance.
The degrees of guilt vary, and presumably Mr. Groning, who didn't beat anyone or push them into the gas chambers, was still a useful cog in the killing machines. Can the court assign him a sentence that takes his role into consideration? He wasn't a guard, but does that make him innocent? A mere rebuke or slap on the wrist is insufficient; his role was all about the money. While racial hatred of Jews drove the genocide, the billions raked in from liquidating all Jewish assets was at least a part of the equation. A sentence on Mr. Groning must include a monetary fine, too. And this trial, with its inherent difficulties, becomes a part of the post-Nazi lessons on the complexities of evil and how it takes in "ordinary" people.
Moving on is a demeaning, banal response. The Jewish world, and others, will always be haunted by the Nazi era. It may be technically over, but it is never done.
Moving on is a demeaning, banal response. The Jewish world, and others, will always be haunted by the Nazi era. It may be technically over, but it is never done.
4
Oskar Groning appears in interviews in the BBC series Auschwitz. He comes across as a kindly grandfather figure and what he says confirms his own horror at all that happened in that time. As some others here have said I feel it is not appropriate to blame him for merely being present at the scene. Going against orders is just not an option in any army and not when all you are doing is trying to survive in a system.
10
"Going against orders is just not an option..." is not a true statement, given the evidence of a resistance movement in Germany: people like Sophie and Hans Scholl who gave their lives rather than support Hitler. There are even a few Nazis who are honored at Yad Vashem (The Holocaust Museum) in Jerusalem as some of the "Righteous Among the Nations" for the undercover work they did in saving Jewish lives from within the ranks of the military. So long as we continue to believe the myth that someone serving in the military must "follow orders," no matter how abhorrent those orders may be, we give an excuse for complacency, which too often leads to genocide.
No one should ever kid themselves. The fact that the Holocaust happened in Germany, with its thousand year history of virulent ant-semitism, does not mean that similar things have not, cannot, and will not happen in other countries and other times. No, we are not all equally culpable ("Ich nicht bin ein Berliner") but we are all most definitely equally capable. If you doubt me, spend a week watching nothing but Fox News - if you can stand it that long.
23
Soldiers serving at concentrations camps and in liquidation squads were volunteers. There was no 'following orders' rationale. They volunteered for the duty, knowing what was involved, and because they supported. Many solders declined to volunteer or asked for reassignment. Military records are clear those requests were approved, with no retribution. No one worked at a concentration camp, less so an SS officer, against their will. Groning says as much. And that was true right down to every private soldier. All volunteers.
Anti-semitism wasn't in any way particular to Germany, it was just as common in other european countries with a large jewish population like France or Poland. You shouldn't infere from something that came later to a preceding history "of thousand years". Look at the history of France, there have been numerous expulsions of Jews there, which was also a reason why so many moved to Germany which was at times more tolerant. Just that now, no one knows this.
And if you compare contemporary Germany and the contemporary US, then also we cannot speak of equally culpable (by which I don't refer to something even remotely comparable to the Holocaust, of course).
And if you compare contemporary Germany and the contemporary US, then also we cannot speak of equally culpable (by which I don't refer to something even remotely comparable to the Holocaust, of course).
Act of self-cleansing is important. But constant shaming of the latter generation of the oppressors or aggressors by the victim side and outsiders would sometimes become counter-productive. And, yet, no one knows appropriate level and duration of shaming.
3
What this article highlighted more than anything is the fact that humanity has learned nothing since the Holocaust. The genocide goes on and on, the Balkans in the 90s, Rwanda, Sudan. Where will the next one be?
10
Perhaps the topic that should be discussed and taught is what individual Germans could or should have done. If you were hired to work in a concentration camp, what could you have done? Please don't tell there is NOTHING you could do except stand by and watch thousands of people get killed or starved to death. And what about the 'how could we have known? meme? You see the Jews around you disappearing completely. Where are they? Didn't anyone wonder about this or talk about it?
6
Its actually not too difficult to understand that most Germans didn't know how far the Nazis were going. They did know that Jews were being brutalized and shipped away but the Nazis were fairly careful about what they were doing because they knew it was criminal. I have met Germans who for instance were recruited at a young age into the army in late 44 and had no knowledge of how bad the war was going for them. There is a story of Generaloberst Blaskowitz when surrendering to General Charles Foulkes of the Canadian army. Blaskowitz had served in the German army for over 40 years and had commanded the occupation of Poland. He had been removed from command because he refused to separate Polish Jewish soldiers from the normal prisoner population. Foulkes was outraged at had recently been found at Belsen concentration camp and condemned the German for it who refused to believe it was true. To prove it some German officers were sent to Belsen to take pictures. When Blaskowitz saw the pictures he broke down and cried. I suspect most Germans knew it was bad but didn't realize how truly barbaric it was. All the more reason why citizens need to be ever vigilant.
I'm afraid that descendants of/and victims of Holocausts in their desire to be always safe may do horrific things to their real and perceived enemies.
9
Hector, let's not turn a discussion about totalitarianism and perpetration of genocide in the 20th century into a discussion about Israel. Keep it on topic.
Banality is an interesting word in this context. What were the thoughts if the crews of the bombers dropping their loads over Dresden on that terrible day in WWII? Was there a banality in the killing of so many civilians? Duty is another interesting word. How far does one go to perform his or her duty? God help us all.
15
Dresden was no badge of honor for the Allies. However, it is wrong to conflate the bombardment with the extermination camps. One was a dubious act of war, the other was a genocidal criminal enterprise unseen before or after. Such comparisons play into the hands of propagandists, as can be seen from the anti-american propaganda of East Germany or of holocaust deniers today.
There were over 4,000 guards and staff at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Including Mr. Gröning, fewer than 70 have ever been brought to justice. The bald fact is that most of the perpetrators of the Holocaust got away with it.
What makes this fact so disturbing is that after the war, these men returned to normal lives. They loved their wives and children, cared for their pets, tended their gardens. They were not inherently evil or psychopathic or disturbed. During the war they were asked to do awful, inhumane things, and they complied. After the war, they stopped.
The situation is not unique to Germany. The murderers and denouncers of the Stalinist Terror walked away from their pasts, most of the murderers in the Balkans and in Rwanda in the 1990s did likewise. This is not a German thing. It's a human thing.
We must face the fact that, if conditions are right, if atrocity and chaos and butchery become part of our everyday experience, any of us can descend into that abyss. Some will resist, yes. But for every Oskar Schindler there will be a 1,000 Oskar Grönings, just getting on with the job and ready to revert to normalcy when it is all over and done with.
We are each of us capable of this. We must be vigilant against the seductive habits of thought that lead us down these paths and protect against the conditions that license savagery. Both must be studied by historians and pyschologists, for the monster lurks inside all of us.
What makes this fact so disturbing is that after the war, these men returned to normal lives. They loved their wives and children, cared for their pets, tended their gardens. They were not inherently evil or psychopathic or disturbed. During the war they were asked to do awful, inhumane things, and they complied. After the war, they stopped.
The situation is not unique to Germany. The murderers and denouncers of the Stalinist Terror walked away from their pasts, most of the murderers in the Balkans and in Rwanda in the 1990s did likewise. This is not a German thing. It's a human thing.
We must face the fact that, if conditions are right, if atrocity and chaos and butchery become part of our everyday experience, any of us can descend into that abyss. Some will resist, yes. But for every Oskar Schindler there will be a 1,000 Oskar Grönings, just getting on with the job and ready to revert to normalcy when it is all over and done with.
We are each of us capable of this. We must be vigilant against the seductive habits of thought that lead us down these paths and protect against the conditions that license savagery. Both must be studied by historians and pyschologists, for the monster lurks inside all of us.
188
Gfagan, You left out the enslavement & elimination of the indigenous people of early North, Central & South Americas & the Caribbean. Our ancestors are as guilty as the Oskar Gronings that came later.
Gfagan: "these men returned to normal lives. They loved their wives and children, cared for their pets, tended their gardens." You neglected to mention that they also contined to promulgate the hatred and passed it on to their children and grandchildren as it was undoubtedly passed to them.
I find it impossible to believe that anti-Semitism has subsided the least bit in Germany. It's been active there for centuries; it just has gone a bit underground. The Germans returning from WWII did not change their minds and thoughts simply because they lost the war. As the saying goes, "you have not converted a man because you have silenced him".
If the German government wants to counter the claims of many ignorant fools worldwide that the Holocaust never happened, they and all of the other European countries that participated in the slaughter should immediately open all files from that period (beginning in the early 1930's) to the public for everyone to see. The Nazis were incredibly diligent in keeping records, photographs and movies of their actions toward their victims. They should not be censored at all and should become part of the holocaust curriculum beginning in elementary school. I believe the only way that "never again" has a chance at succeeding is for everyone, especially children, to see these records and, hopefully, become horrified, appalled and totally disgusted at what had been a national pastime.
I find it impossible to believe that anti-Semitism has subsided the least bit in Germany. It's been active there for centuries; it just has gone a bit underground. The Germans returning from WWII did not change their minds and thoughts simply because they lost the war. As the saying goes, "you have not converted a man because you have silenced him".
If the German government wants to counter the claims of many ignorant fools worldwide that the Holocaust never happened, they and all of the other European countries that participated in the slaughter should immediately open all files from that period (beginning in the early 1930's) to the public for everyone to see. The Nazis were incredibly diligent in keeping records, photographs and movies of their actions toward their victims. They should not be censored at all and should become part of the holocaust curriculum beginning in elementary school. I believe the only way that "never again" has a chance at succeeding is for everyone, especially children, to see these records and, hopefully, become horrified, appalled and totally disgusted at what had been a national pastime.
They say civilization is only skin deep. If you remove the skin, you expose the reptilian in us that is easily molded for good or bad.
For most Germans of the '30s and '40s that was easy to do after the social disintegration and depression of the '20s and '30s.
The thin cultural layer of moral enlightenment was not deep or thick enough to suppress the siren call of Hitler and Nazism.
For most Germans of the '30s and '40s that was easy to do after the social disintegration and depression of the '20s and '30s.
The thin cultural layer of moral enlightenment was not deep or thick enough to suppress the siren call of Hitler and Nazism.
5
When the generation that participated in the war and the Holocaust is
gone should their children and grandchildren bear responsibility for those
horrors? Should this generation and future generations of Americans bear responsibility for the crimes committed against Africans enslaved by our
forefathers? Or the deliberate genocide delivered to Native Americans? Does such a thing as inherited guilt exist outside biblical narratives ?
It seems such a notion would only fuel more disasters.
gone should their children and grandchildren bear responsibility for those
horrors? Should this generation and future generations of Americans bear responsibility for the crimes committed against Africans enslaved by our
forefathers? Or the deliberate genocide delivered to Native Americans? Does such a thing as inherited guilt exist outside biblical narratives ?
It seems such a notion would only fuel more disasters.
11
It is not about bearing responsibility, but rather about bearing witness. When those who were there are gone, it becomes paramount to find ways to pass on what they saw, heard, and felt to the younger generations. "Those who ignore history are destined to repeat it." We must remember not to feel guilty, not to punish ourselves or others, but to remember what can happen when humanity loses it's humanity; what happens when good men and women stand by in the face of evil acts.
1
This is nonsense. All the attention a trial like this one gets, is attention that would be better spent on something more relevant.
4
I guess those who ignore history are also doomed to repeat it. Look around - the genocidal past isn't all that past. And if you think the civil war is really over, just look at the news.
OMG! What could be more relevant to humankind -- and human government -- than revealing and prosecuting institutionalized murder?
Attention? PAY ATTENTION, Mr. Miller. I think most people are ambivalent about the trial. But "relevance"? It is indeed relevant, sir. We need to keep reminding ourselves about atrocity. Forget? Oh, no, sir. We forget too much as it is.
1
Old Nazis are useful because they help distract us from the awful truth: we have all committed or been complicit in similar atrocities. Necessity becomes guilt depending on who wins.
15
One only has to study the behavior of this country and the American military in Vietnam (Nick Turse), Central and South America in the 70's & 80's and Iraq/Afghanistan (Abu Graihb, torture, Haditha, drone strikes, etc.) to see "the distraction" of Nazi atrocities.
My father always lamented the war crimes he was party to as part of a heavy bombardment group (44th) during WWII in the bombings of Dresden and other civilian centers. As he oft stated, the Nuremburg war trials were trials administered by the victors.
My father always lamented the war crimes he was party to as part of a heavy bombardment group (44th) during WWII in the bombings of Dresden and other civilian centers. As he oft stated, the Nuremburg war trials were trials administered by the victors.
20
This is important not only for Germans. We British have our share of Holocaust-deniers; the Poles are still denying that many of them were complicit in the massacre of their Jewish neighbors; the Hungarians have an anti-Semitic government........
17
the Hungarians do not have an "anti-Semtitic" government. A few politicians have dared suggest that Jews held disproportionate power in banking and media.
And as a cold matter of demographics, they were right.
And as a cold matter of demographics, they were right.
Ms. Sauerbrey enjoins the Germans to think why they should never forget. I think this is a wrong “why” and it should be addressed to a much wider audience.
A guilt trip will not solve the problem that us much more universal. It is not only about Germans. It is about all of us. Yes, Germany practiced mass murder of innocent people. We tried the perpetrators. We recognized them as evil, banal or not. And then we thought that we have done our job. And then Srebrenica, Rwanda, and other similar atrocities took place. They are still going on today in many places around the world. Yes, the scale may be different, but only the scale.
I recall the film “Downfall” (2004) based on the memoirs of Gertraud "Traudl" Junge, one of Hitler’s secretaries. The director ends the film with an interview with real Traudl Junge in which she is asked the sacral question: “Did you know?” Ms. Junge starts haltingly: “I was a young girl and I did not know.” As I watched the scene, I immediately lost all interest. It appeared to be the usual mantra that I had heard from many Germans. But then, something happens. Ms. Junge looks pensively into the camera and says: “But probably there was a way to know.”
What happened in Germany has happened in many other parts of the world. It happened to the Japanese Americans during WWII. It is happening in the Middle East today. It may happen anywhere tomorrow. We humans must understand the reasons. Germans should also help all of us.
A guilt trip will not solve the problem that us much more universal. It is not only about Germans. It is about all of us. Yes, Germany practiced mass murder of innocent people. We tried the perpetrators. We recognized them as evil, banal or not. And then we thought that we have done our job. And then Srebrenica, Rwanda, and other similar atrocities took place. They are still going on today in many places around the world. Yes, the scale may be different, but only the scale.
I recall the film “Downfall” (2004) based on the memoirs of Gertraud "Traudl" Junge, one of Hitler’s secretaries. The director ends the film with an interview with real Traudl Junge in which she is asked the sacral question: “Did you know?” Ms. Junge starts haltingly: “I was a young girl and I did not know.” As I watched the scene, I immediately lost all interest. It appeared to be the usual mantra that I had heard from many Germans. But then, something happens. Ms. Junge looks pensively into the camera and says: “But probably there was a way to know.”
What happened in Germany has happened in many other parts of the world. It happened to the Japanese Americans during WWII. It is happening in the Middle East today. It may happen anywhere tomorrow. We humans must understand the reasons. Germans should also help all of us.
27
Yes, we can even ask the Palestinians about mass murder in their lands. Norm Finklestein, John Mearsheimer, and Noam Chomsky all have interesting accounts to offer
"probably there was a way to know". Indeed, it seems to be a human condition to put on the blinders and pretend that nothing is wrong. Another problem is indifference; it is not my problem, so it is not my business.
You're correct that guilt rarely reforms people. Nevertheless, let's hope that somehow we will have more of the likes of Irene Sendler or Oskar Schindler (as mentioned above) than Oskar Grönings. Unfortunately, I also have little reason to be optimistic there. The temptation is to think of the Germans and the Japanese and other so forth as somehow different from ourselves, and, therefore, it simply couldn't happen here, oh no, definitely not. It can't happen here...
You're correct that guilt rarely reforms people. Nevertheless, let's hope that somehow we will have more of the likes of Irene Sendler or Oskar Schindler (as mentioned above) than Oskar Grönings. Unfortunately, I also have little reason to be optimistic there. The temptation is to think of the Germans and the Japanese and other so forth as somehow different from ourselves, and, therefore, it simply couldn't happen here, oh no, definitely not. It can't happen here...
Not a day goes by when I don't think, for a moment, about what my grandmother told me. About the Hitler youth camps she attended as a child, about her serving soup in the camps, about her family member who was a gauleiter. She died alone 15 year ago. She used to rub my feet when I got pins and needles as a child, she used to make me apple pie and chicken soup. But she also was capable of being very cold and vaguely frightening. She abandoned my father for years while she made frequent flights back to Germany after the war. I was never able to reconcile the two people that she was. The banality of evil is very much real. I grew up with it as a constant presence in my life. It has shaped the way I view the world. The main way it has shaped my world is that I never am able to take things at first appearance, I always delve beneath the surface. The superficial can be deceiving. Sociopaths use people's desires for routine, and appearances of normalcy, to commit horrors, unseen. How many pedophiles become priests or cops or firemen to increase public trust? How many terrorists go into business selling counterfeit goods or running prostitution rings, because they are seen as low level crimes, but generate much income for funding their exploits? My grandmother moved to England after the war to 'hide in plain sight.' Sociopaths have no loyalty, they use whatever they can for their own ends. The lessons I learnt from my grandmother have, ironically, made me want to be a better person.
31
Hitler made the Jewish people a scapegoat which everyone seemed very happy to agree with at the time. Apparently we don't learn from history as it seems there is a drive to make them the scapegoat again. Why else would we expect Israel to NOT fire back when they're having rockets launched at them?
16
As a Jew whose father was born in Tel Aviv, I have to disagree. What has happened in Israel is not nearly so simple as "let's scapegoat the Jews." The Jewish people know through personal experience the pain and horror of military occupation, ghettoization, being second-class citizens, and collective punishment. And yet these same horrors are inflicted on the Palestinians on a daily basis. Their movement is controlled and severely restricted, their land is confiscated and given to Jews, their identification marks them as "non-Jews," and their communities endure their homes being destroyed as collective punishment for resisting the military occupation. Hamas is guilty of crimes and atrocities, but the scale pales in comparison to the thousands of innocent people killed in Israeli airstrikes and ground incursions. I do not excuse violence against civilians on either side. But the official policies of collective punishment adopted by the Israeli government are shamefully reminiscent of Nazi policies of collective punishment for any communities that harbored Jews or other "undesirables." In Israel, the mantra "never forget" has become a paranoia that almost wishes for another holocaust to justify itself. Netanyahu has been screaming about Iran nuking Israel into oblivion since at least the 1990s, always saying a bomb was a mere year or two away. And yet multiple former Mossad directors say he is wrong, and paranoid, and alarmist.
While in the process of kicking people off of their land, stealing their water resources, bombing with drones from above, and carrying on a complete occupation and quarantine of people in their own land, you blame the victims for wanting the boot pulled from upon their collective necks? The international community sees this much differently than you do. There is very little that the Israelis do in the occupied territories that will garner international sympathy for them. Likkud must go, and Israelis must shake up the situation before BDS begins to pinch, and all of Europe recognizes Palestine as have over 130 nations to date.
Have you watched Miko Leped's talk on Youtube ? I would be interested in your opinion.
Each of use should ask, "could I do things like that?". An honest answer is probably "yes", at least given the 'right' circumstances.
This is not just about Germany (or Japan for that matter), it is about us (the human race). Unfortunately, each new generation must re-examine this question. Sympathy and respect for other people's humanity probably takes lifetimes to learn.
This is not just about Germany (or Japan for that matter), it is about us (the human race). Unfortunately, each new generation must re-examine this question. Sympathy and respect for other people's humanity probably takes lifetimes to learn.
11
When you look at global outcomes of cheap labor policies (nazis and German corporations used slave labor), and the push for the TPP to lower wages even more than what we have now. When you look at the militarization of our police forces. When you look at the predatory nature of our corporate elite, and the banksters. When you look at our bought and paid for congress, and the revolving door of lobbyist. Our decades of perpetual war. I'm not sure sure the Nazis are all that old, as their policies are alive and well and more successful (at consolidating wealth in as few hands as possible/the merger of corporate and state interests) than they could ever have imagined in the 40's.
11
Hitler said that the street values described in your letter - money vs. the value of human life - were well established in the world and that not to recognize this was hypocricy. My belief is that Capitalism needs to be offset by Socialism. Neither one is OK on it's own. An extreme of either devastates the populace. Scott Walker and his ilk as well as the banksters and the like of the Koch brothers have screwed us. How do we get rid of "Citizens United" and the limitations of voter's rights in this so called "democractic" country?
1
Elements of the same circumstances are alive today in America, only this time -- once again -- it is African Americans, not Jews. The lynchings of the past has gone "high tech" as our Justice Thomas has so accurately coined the phrase during his battle of nomination as Supreme Court Justice.
Rationalization then and now has created the personality of disdain.
The Medal of Honor goes to the brave; the medal of Distain goes to Congress and it's worshipers in small towns and large cities, in donors that perpetuate the shame are large and small, very small.
There is an intoxicating element in power that feeds the ego and rationalizes justice in insentive ways, and that insensitivity grows: it does not extinguish. If not cured, it will grow to the repitition of evil.
Rationalization then and now has created the personality of disdain.
The Medal of Honor goes to the brave; the medal of Distain goes to Congress and it's worshipers in small towns and large cities, in donors that perpetuate the shame are large and small, very small.
There is an intoxicating element in power that feeds the ego and rationalizes justice in insentive ways, and that insensitivity grows: it does not extinguish. If not cured, it will grow to the repitition of evil.
5
Nothing wrong with this editorial, but what will the Holocaust museum do ten years from now when there are no more camp guards to use as living history lessons?
2
It is never time to forget when atrocities continue today.
12
This is why the United States must prosecute the industrial scale torture and other illegal cruel and degrading treatment it has engaged in, in the "war on terror" and beyond. While these historic episodes are not comparable to the German genocide of World War II -- one does not excuse one murder, or one torture, because someone else committed 20. Ethics 101. In order to properly know itself, and direct its moral future, in its own eyes and those of the world, the system of justice and the victims must speak on these crimes. A festering untreated illegality combined with a globally pontificating posture is ugly, and corrupt, and weak.
11
The Nazis ARE NOT the problem. The Nazis WERE the problem seven decades ago.
What is the problem? We are the problem - our unlimited greed, our inability to control the global corporations, are inability to protect our democracy, our inability to make our free press meet the minimum standards.
We are constantly going from catastrophe to catastrophe.
We were attacked on the 9/11 by a miniscule group of the mostly Saudi Sunni Wahhabis but we invaded Afghanistan in retaliation. Then we invaded Iraq to destroy non-existent WMD and a local society that was exemplary in the Middle East for creation of the educated middle class with the fair treatment of women and religious minorities. How do I know that? I was working there for two years in 1986 and 1987. I personally saw the women strolling the Baghdad streets in the miniskirts and the Christmas nativity scenes in the main halls of two most prominent hotels Sheraton and Meridian...
It wasn’t enough to destroy Iraq and learn our lesson.
Afterwards we did the same in Libya that was extremely similar to Iraq.
The most accurate vote is when the people vote with their feet. Do you remember those Christian Copts executed by the ISIS on a beach? Under Gadhafi regime there was no ISIS but there were a couple of millions of the African migrants that moved to Libya to work there.
The migrant crisis in Europe is created by those workers trying to save their lives from the current hell in Libya.
Let’s talk about modern-day Nazism.
What is the problem? We are the problem - our unlimited greed, our inability to control the global corporations, are inability to protect our democracy, our inability to make our free press meet the minimum standards.
We are constantly going from catastrophe to catastrophe.
We were attacked on the 9/11 by a miniscule group of the mostly Saudi Sunni Wahhabis but we invaded Afghanistan in retaliation. Then we invaded Iraq to destroy non-existent WMD and a local society that was exemplary in the Middle East for creation of the educated middle class with the fair treatment of women and religious minorities. How do I know that? I was working there for two years in 1986 and 1987. I personally saw the women strolling the Baghdad streets in the miniskirts and the Christmas nativity scenes in the main halls of two most prominent hotels Sheraton and Meridian...
It wasn’t enough to destroy Iraq and learn our lesson.
Afterwards we did the same in Libya that was extremely similar to Iraq.
The most accurate vote is when the people vote with their feet. Do you remember those Christian Copts executed by the ISIS on a beach? Under Gadhafi regime there was no ISIS but there were a couple of millions of the African migrants that moved to Libya to work there.
The migrant crisis in Europe is created by those workers trying to save their lives from the current hell in Libya.
Let’s talk about modern-day Nazism.
45
Let's talk about anti-Semitism that is alive and well.
1
Nothing you say, nothing you talk about bears and relationship or any comparability to the Holocaust.
German national policy was to murder all 18 million Jews alive then in the entire world. They completed one third of the job. After the Jews they also murdered 500,000 Gypsies and it was their intention after enslaving them to murder all the Slavs in the world. That was the policy of the government, that was its war aim, that is what it set out to do and in the process murdered more than 10 million altogether in its killing camps and concentration camps.
Yhea there are bad things in the world and yes the United States has done some of them. But to compare any of them to what Germany did is morally oblique.
You should apologize and you should go to school about the Holocaust.
German national policy was to murder all 18 million Jews alive then in the entire world. They completed one third of the job. After the Jews they also murdered 500,000 Gypsies and it was their intention after enslaving them to murder all the Slavs in the world. That was the policy of the government, that was its war aim, that is what it set out to do and in the process murdered more than 10 million altogether in its killing camps and concentration camps.
Yhea there are bad things in the world and yes the United States has done some of them. But to compare any of them to what Germany did is morally oblique.
You should apologize and you should go to school about the Holocaust.
Each generation says a variation of "Never again" and then it happens again as that generation passes. There are things we all need to remember, to read about, and to keep on saying "Never again" to. The Armenian genocide, WWI, WWII, the Holocaust, My Lai, 9/11/2001, are all man made disasters. With all the natural disasters we have I fail to understand why we need to create disasters to keep ourselves busy.
6
There is a well-known Japanese saying that the nail that sticks up will be hammered down. To stand in disagreement can be a very dangerous thing, and it requires great courage and resilience to go against the flow.
Ms. Arendt had another, less known phrase: in foro conscientiae. Before the tribunal of conscience. We are tested before this tribunal dozens of times each day, from the mundane to the definitive. How well we stack up against that defines who we are, as individuals, and as a people.
Ms. Arendt had another, less known phrase: in foro conscientiae. Before the tribunal of conscience. We are tested before this tribunal dozens of times each day, from the mundane to the definitive. How well we stack up against that defines who we are, as individuals, and as a people.
15
The rapid disappearance of the “Zeitzeugen,” the contemporary witnesses — both survivors and perpetrators — will change how we Germans think about ourselves. Especially the perpetrators; in a bizarre way, we will miss them when they’re gone.
We won't miss them when they're gone. We live with ghosts and because we do they will NEVER be gone. We will be talking about the Holocaust until the end of time. Survivors had children, their own trauma is inbred in their children and their children's children. Same is true for Perpetrators and their children. Amon Goeth also had children, one daughter destroyed by the knowledge of his evil. Rolf Mengele devotes his life to survivors of his father's evil. I have read comments from those who say, its time to move on. That time will never come. As a Jew I'm affected daily and deeply. I work to remember those who should never be forgotten. Something which I think is even more important than the old Nazi Oskar is that while he's getting lots of print for his crimes who is keeping the light and love alive for a Saint like Irene Sendler of Poland who saved 2,500 children from death at the risk of her own life? And others who risked their lives to save Jews. Those known and unknown.
There were so many like Oskar. Few like Irene Sendler or Oskar Schindler. I wish more print were devoted to heroes who risked their lives to save other human beings. When the survivors are gone, perpetrators, too, we will never stop talking! NEVER!
We won't miss them when they're gone. We live with ghosts and because we do they will NEVER be gone. We will be talking about the Holocaust until the end of time. Survivors had children, their own trauma is inbred in their children and their children's children. Same is true for Perpetrators and their children. Amon Goeth also had children, one daughter destroyed by the knowledge of his evil. Rolf Mengele devotes his life to survivors of his father's evil. I have read comments from those who say, its time to move on. That time will never come. As a Jew I'm affected daily and deeply. I work to remember those who should never be forgotten. Something which I think is even more important than the old Nazi Oskar is that while he's getting lots of print for his crimes who is keeping the light and love alive for a Saint like Irene Sendler of Poland who saved 2,500 children from death at the risk of her own life? And others who risked their lives to save Jews. Those known and unknown.
There were so many like Oskar. Few like Irene Sendler or Oskar Schindler. I wish more print were devoted to heroes who risked their lives to save other human beings. When the survivors are gone, perpetrators, too, we will never stop talking! NEVER!
83
The comments are even more revealing than the article.
From a survivor
From a survivor
10
Germans who protested the Nazis or dissented from their orders risked their lives (though the risk was often less than you might think). In our time, we tolerate, & even encourage, torture, illegal invasions, assassinations, kidnapping, though protesting exposes us to little or no risk. I am not suggesting that we are Nazis, but that a sense of moral superiority may blind us to the way societies really work nowadays.
51
We encourage fundamentalist religions, extreme right wing-nut politicians, unrestricted corporate crime, a certain "acceptable" level of homelessness and unemployment, and militarism in police departments. And, then we blame the unfortunate results on the victims of these immoral activities. We're certainly headed that way.
Another way "old Nazis are still useful" is in proving the Holocaust deniers to be wrong. When Oskar Groning says he watched all those Jewish people lined up and then killed, in the context of a trial where telling the truth will likely put him in prison for the rest of his life, it is harder for the modern American "skeptics" to remain skeptical.
Unless, of course, they are denying the holocaust for the same reason that Republicans deny climate change--it is inconvenient to their philosophy, which is not based in reality.
Unless, of course, they are denying the holocaust for the same reason that Republicans deny climate change--it is inconvenient to their philosophy, which is not based in reality.
34
Aren't those deniers some of the same folks who believe in the magical genie/fairy god, who lives on a cloud?
Good point.
Yet we did already forget to "never again" when the last US administration went to war with a nation that never attacked us.
They designed lies and manipulated fears after we were attacked by Saddam Husseins foe, then dropped the ball on OBL who did attack us and went after SH.
They justified the same aggressive "attack before being attacked" style towards Iraq that Hitler and his Third Reich went after Czechoslovakia, which was supposed to "never again" happen after the Neurenburg Laws.
Then they went on to defy the Geneva War agreements of handling prisoners of war.
What "never again"?
Yet we did already forget to "never again" when the last US administration went to war with a nation that never attacked us.
They designed lies and manipulated fears after we were attacked by Saddam Husseins foe, then dropped the ball on OBL who did attack us and went after SH.
They justified the same aggressive "attack before being attacked" style towards Iraq that Hitler and his Third Reich went after Czechoslovakia, which was supposed to "never again" happen after the Neurenburg Laws.
Then they went on to defy the Geneva War agreements of handling prisoners of war.
What "never again"?
23
I know a man who taught economics at Annapolis and Oxford. We agree that there is no difference whatsoever between "preemptive war" (Bush/Chaney/Rice/Rummy) and aggressive war, for which perpetrators were sentenced to death at Nuremburg.
This old guy is being put on trial so that he can furnish an ideological lesson. Nothing more. He is no more guilty that the engineer or the brakeman who worked on the railroad that carried those poor people to the camp. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time and had no choice. There is absolutely no evidence that he committed a crime. He should never even have been indicted. The trial is a crime: an arrest made for propaganda purposes.
8
I believe you may be right about the reason for the trial. But, in my opinion perhaps we should put the train engineer, school teacher, doctor, etc. who participated in the horror of Nazi Germany on trial as well.
1
No choice, huh? let me suggest that you go tell Sophie Scholl that.
1
Of course he was guilty ken; and he admitted it. Think harder.
The genius of the system at Auschwitz-Birkenau was that few SS actually killed anyone so few were left with a personal sense of guilt - a metaphor for the entire German nation. Auschwitz was a killing machine and everyone played their small part from unloading boxcars to herding the victims into the killing chamber, but even the guards who tossed the gas into the chamber from the roof never saw the actual killing.
24
Old Nazis are not useful at all, Anna Sauerbrey. That the German people acquiesced in joyously making two world wars is beyond comprehension, but it happened. That the Dritte Reich burnt - slaughtered - millions of innocent human beings (Jews and "untermenschen") in the crematoria of the Reich for 12 years is beyond forgiving, beyond forgetting. And that "we" (who is this "WE"? The German people?) "will miss them - the Zeitzeugen" - contemporary witnesses both survivors and perpetrators - when they are gone" is egregiously horrific. "Never again" is a fine sentiment, no matter how "orderly and clean" the murders were carried out, the Nazi killer, Groning, 93, said in his trial. Inherited guilt is natural after the Germans started two world wars and lost both wars ignominiously. Were beaten, the German people were, twice. And today's young Germans will be taught, hopefully, to prevent crimes against humanity which graced - disgraced - the lives of their ancestors in World Wars I and II. At least "never again" means we will not have to defeat Germany in another world war anytime soon.
8
Hmm. What I get from Ms Sauerbrey's article is that Germans continue to find new ways to keep their criminal heritage uppermost in their cultural consciousness, an effort increasingly important as eyewitnesses and perpetrators pass away. What's the matter with that?
Nan's angry and emotional comment misses the point. Of course, old Nazis are useful, as explained in the article.
It is time to move on and one's energy into a positive future for the world.
7
The Nazis blamed all Germany's problem on their Jews. After ridding their country of Jewish people however, things actually got much worse for Germany. It was only after Germany got rid of its Nazis that the country has done better, in fact, startlingly better. So it turned out that the Nazis were the ones creating all the problems for Germany instead of its Jews which is kind of ironic.
11
Yes, Germany is better and thriving. How much of this can be attributed to the presence of our military's money? We made a great many Germans rich over the years...and rebuilt much of their country.
Good article by Ms. Sauerbrey.
Andrea Merkel has shown notable courage and moral leadership in resisting the trend in Europe in recent decades to make unfair demands of Israel if not demonize it, a stance whose origin in my view is an irrational and ancient distrust and dislike of the Jews.
The true lesson of the Nazi era for today is that the Jewish people are primarily at risk in Israel. Israel is surrounded by hostile or at best indifferent countries and territories and its fate will spell the fate of the Jews, not of some construct like "Zionists" or "settlers" or "Likudists".
Andrea Merkel has shown notable courage and moral leadership in resisting the trend in Europe in recent decades to make unfair demands of Israel if not demonize it, a stance whose origin in my view is an irrational and ancient distrust and dislike of the Jews.
The true lesson of the Nazi era for today is that the Jewish people are primarily at risk in Israel. Israel is surrounded by hostile or at best indifferent countries and territories and its fate will spell the fate of the Jews, not of some construct like "Zionists" or "settlers" or "Likudists".
4
Neither Adolf Hitler nor Kurt Waldheim were German. Nazi Germany killed 27.5 million Soviet citizens during World War II. Only China lost more lives to Japan.
When will Germany and Germans be deemed to have given sufficient evidence of enough remorse and apologies in order to atone and be forgiven for the Nazi German past? Nazis are certain to have a 100% mortality rate.
Instead of focusing on old Nazis why not look at young living Nazis? Instead of looking at the legacy of the Holocaust why not offer to carve out of Germany a Zionist Jewish nation state refuge?
When will Germany and Germans be deemed to have given sufficient evidence of enough remorse and apologies in order to atone and be forgiven for the Nazi German past? Nazis are certain to have a 100% mortality rate.
Instead of focusing on old Nazis why not look at young living Nazis? Instead of looking at the legacy of the Holocaust why not offer to carve out of Germany a Zionist Jewish nation state refuge?
2
Blackmamba's post is deeply foolish on a number of levels. First, the old canard that Hitler was Austrian not German, used since the war as a weak defense of Germany for what the German nation did, is like saying President Obama is a Hawaiian simply because he was born in Honolulu. The town where Hitler was born is only a couple of miles from the present day German border. It changed hands many times but for most of its history it was part of Bavaria and I don't think there is much question that AH's parents were ethnic Germans. At the time of Hitler's birth, Braunau had only been part of Austria for about 60 years.
When will Germans be forgiven? As a practical matter, and given the magnitude of the crime, check back in 200 or 300 years.
And carve out a section of Germany as a Zionist state? Again, as a practical matter, that's a laughably idiotic idea.
When will Germans be forgiven? As a practical matter, and given the magnitude of the crime, check back in 200 or 300 years.
And carve out a section of Germany as a Zionist state? Again, as a practical matter, that's a laughably idiotic idea.
The pain is far from over. My father lost his family to the Nazis. (He left Poland in 1930.) I lived with his never ending pain. I saw it and felt it. His pain lives on inside me. To this day, one of my most favorite movie themes are WWll based movies where the US and Great Britain drop German soldiers by the hundreds. I used to watch those shows years ago with my dad and he would jump up and down and shout "Give to em!" Then he would say, "Oh son, dis vas good!"
I still do the same. I am not ashamed of my feelings. It pains me greatly when ignorant fools deny the holocaust or call politicians a Hitler.
WWll did more to shape the world than anything ever in history. So many don't understand it, or know much about it.
After another generation, the pain will fade but the lessons must never be forgotten. Not even barbaric ISIS can match the horror of Nazi Germany. The world must never turn away from that horror and push it into the dustbins of history. We have to understand what human beings are capable of to prevent it from happening again. We are failing in that regard.
I still do the same. I am not ashamed of my feelings. It pains me greatly when ignorant fools deny the holocaust or call politicians a Hitler.
WWll did more to shape the world than anything ever in history. So many don't understand it, or know much about it.
After another generation, the pain will fade but the lessons must never be forgotten. Not even barbaric ISIS can match the horror of Nazi Germany. The world must never turn away from that horror and push it into the dustbins of history. We have to understand what human beings are capable of to prevent it from happening again. We are failing in that regard.
83
The history of the world is filled with examples of how terrible human beings treat each other. For the most part, they are all forgotten. Stuff happening right now is ignored.
1
I might argue that the Black Death, European colonial expansion into the Western Hemisphere or, dare I say it, the crucifixion of a certain Jewish philosopher did more to shape the world than anything ever in history. And if you're talking about in the last 100 years (+/-), the rise & fall of Communism may give the military defeat of the Third Reich and Imperial Japan a run for its money.
Listen, listen...
The voices calling to us
From afar
Whispering among
Newer sorrows
Calling out to others
With our names...
Listen, listen
Can you not hear?...
The voices calling to us
From afar
Whispering among
Newer sorrows
Calling out to others
With our names...
Listen, listen
Can you not hear?...
2
We need reminding here in America, too. It is interesting that this op/ed was printed the same day as an article on major rethinking of the Patriot Act. We need to look at our old assumptions on a regular basis. Germany is doing it with this trial.
12
Sure. The Patriot Act and the German Cocentration camps and murder of 6 million Jews in cold blood are just about the same order of magnitude.
1
Sadly, I fear many Germans and in the rest of Europe and the US have learned nothing from the Holocaust. (This is not a German problem per se.) When we in 2015 use a similar rhetoric of distancing, othering, blaming the victim, moral judgment and hard-heartedness against the Greeks that was used against the Jews in the 1930s-40s. what have we learned? When we are willing to let the Greeks--innocent Greek children, let's say, suffer from hunger and lack of medical care to "teach them a lesson" (as Hitler was always trying to teach the Jews "a lesson--" after all, to him, "they deserved what they got") what have we learned? All we seem to have learned is that factory-style systemized genocide is a no-no and everything else is OK--and that's the wrong lesson, imho.
5
Arendt's phrase 'banality of evil,' did not mean the evil was banal nor the perpetrators!! She meant the corresponding mentality which they manifested is so incredibly beyond belief that what's 'banal' is to try to find an operative suggestion for the evil which they manifested not the evil itself. Of that she nor anyone but the nazis have no doubt.
5
Sorry Lidune; I don't follow you.
Read the post-war best seller "Kaput!" by Italian historian Curzio Malaparte who accompanied the Nazis when they invaded Russia.
He wrote about a young captured Russian sniper who was given a chance to live if he could guess which eye of the Waffen SS major was a glass one.
When he made the correct choice the major asked him how he knew. He replied "That was the one that reflected a little humanity in it."
With much of Europe's youth anti-Israel (read Jewish) stance are they retrogressing to the senseless hatred of their parents or grandparents?
He quotes a German priest who said, "It will take a thousand years of penance for the evil we have done."
He wrote about a young captured Russian sniper who was given a chance to live if he could guess which eye of the Waffen SS major was a glass one.
When he made the correct choice the major asked him how he knew. He replied "That was the one that reflected a little humanity in it."
With much of Europe's youth anti-Israel (read Jewish) stance are they retrogressing to the senseless hatred of their parents or grandparents?
He quotes a German priest who said, "It will take a thousand years of penance for the evil we have done."
15
Thank goodness films like "Labyrinth of Lies" (" Im Labyrinth des Schweigens") are still being made. It is based on the true story of the events which led to the prosecution and sentencing of Nazi criminals at the Frankfurt Auschwitz trials in the 1960's. It has just opened here in Paris and is a timely reminder of the importance of never forgetting. Everyone should see it.
3
The author makes numerous good points in this piece. However, the article doesn't mention the many attempts on Hitler's life. These attempted assassinations suggest that there were Germans of high moral caliber who tried to stop the madman. For example, the eminent general Rommel made an unsuccessful attempt for which he paid with his own life.
Perhaps it is German culture itself which must be changed; maybe authority must be respected less and questioned more.
Perhaps it is German culture itself which must be changed; maybe authority must be respected less and questioned more.
2
Let's quote history correctly. General Rommel only revolted toward the end of the war when he finally realized that Germany lost and he hoped that something could be salvaged if they get rid of Hitler.
Claus von Stauffenberg was as right wing and antisemitic as they come. Just because someone recognized Hitler to be a madman doesn't make him a saint.
Groning was but a cog in the gears of the machine, numb, propagandized, and unable to see Jews or others as humans. He cannot even admit to all the guilt for his actions, only the moral guilt. One day there will be no more Nazis to pick on and Germany or for that matter the world will do as it always does forget. The genocide will become another footnote in the annals of history remembered by the victims and their group eg. Jews, Armenians etc., while the perps will write history to make themselves look good or innocent. History is replete with the revisions. Leaders only want good history. Do we remember the genocide and murders of the Cherokee nation in the 1800's on their death march... or does Japan celebrate the Bataan death march at the end of the war. No! German kids have a vague feeling of guilt as they should since they are not guilty of genocide but their parents and grandparents are collectively guilty. So to Groning I say congratulations for allowing us to remember, how the supposedly most advanced nation in Europe, wiped out an entire ethnic and religious group a culture, a language and 6 and a half million Jews all in the name of racial superiority. I will never forget (includes education of my children), never forgive the perpetrators but I do not hold the kids of today complicit in the guilt of their predecessors unless the kids grow up and they turn and commit the same atrocities against some other ethic group as did their progenitors.
13
Cold, harsh and determined retelling of man's history is the only means to guide the next generation of every country. Ms. Sauerbrey's piece reminds us that in the future, when Oscar G. and his victims are both gone forever, we are obligated to memorialize these specific events and ensure that students (of any age) are taught how every man has within his soul the tendency toward personal and civic evil.
Mankind's trait of deep failing is universal; it is certainly unfair and almost ignorant to single out Germany alone, since holocosts like their "final solution" have occurred in many places time and again in both the west and the east from earliest recorded history, with the 20th century being one of the worst examples.
And now In the year 2015 we also are without excuse if we ignore those who call for the extermination of another race, yet this very human act plays out daily. As long as man is alive he must be taught who he is and who he has been.
Mankind's trait of deep failing is universal; it is certainly unfair and almost ignorant to single out Germany alone, since holocosts like their "final solution" have occurred in many places time and again in both the west and the east from earliest recorded history, with the 20th century being one of the worst examples.
And now In the year 2015 we also are without excuse if we ignore those who call for the extermination of another race, yet this very human act plays out daily. As long as man is alive he must be taught who he is and who he has been.
6
Thank you for you eloquent arguments. These stories must indeed be retold and never forgotten.
I think it would be better if young Germans were taught to be politically active. The Germans I have met in my travels seem to shy away. Never again should be interpreted as never allowing a right-wing mob, supported by the rich to take over.
2
Why Old Nazis Are Still Useful.
Like it or not the cult of mass killing, hate for another race or creed or ethnic cleansing is still with us. Radical Islamic doctrine is instilled in its followers from birth just as the Nazi’s did with their followers. Repugnant mass murder and the misogynistic treatment of women are endemic in most Islamic countries. Atrocities perpetrated by Islamic terrorists are always blamed on Western foreign policy, or the existence of Israel, or poverty, or racism, or lack of education.
It is fact that Christians, not Jews, are now the most persecuted believers in the world due to the savage theocratic oppression throughout the Middle East and Asia by fundamentalist Islamic militants.
Why do progressives love to go on about human rights, social justice and tolerance yet remaining silent in the face of the lethal oppression practised on an epic scale by Islamists?
We will always face evil in all its forms. Having the will to fight it before it becomes endemic, is the unlearnt lesson from history!
Like it or not the cult of mass killing, hate for another race or creed or ethnic cleansing is still with us. Radical Islamic doctrine is instilled in its followers from birth just as the Nazi’s did with their followers. Repugnant mass murder and the misogynistic treatment of women are endemic in most Islamic countries. Atrocities perpetrated by Islamic terrorists are always blamed on Western foreign policy, or the existence of Israel, or poverty, or racism, or lack of education.
It is fact that Christians, not Jews, are now the most persecuted believers in the world due to the savage theocratic oppression throughout the Middle East and Asia by fundamentalist Islamic militants.
Why do progressives love to go on about human rights, social justice and tolerance yet remaining silent in the face of the lethal oppression practised on an epic scale by Islamists?
We will always face evil in all its forms. Having the will to fight it before it becomes endemic, is the unlearnt lesson from history!
11
It's very difficult to think of those who not only lived long, full, healthy lives, but who never had to even partially answer for their actions and who died peacefully in their beds, probably surrounded by family and close friends. It's very difficult to stomach just how many of them met such a fate, not the infamous endings at the close of WWII or Nuremberg or subsequent, less storied trials. And what galls us the most is that many of them *would* do it again (even telling us so), never expressing a moment of remorse for their role in perpetrating the horror of the Holocaust. There were no minor roles, either. If you worked at a concentration camp or did work in any way connected to one, you were part of the great crime and unspeakable evil. "Just following orders" has never and will never suffice as a rationale for criminal behavior.
The young ones at the time, like Gröning, display a level of detachment that gives us a window to see how these murders could actually take place on such a stunning scale. That is useful, because we should never forget the monsters or, crucially, those who enabled them to carry out their efforts at obtaining a Final Solution. Obviously, we will greatly miss the wisdom and eloquence of the survivors. They have taught us so much, even if the ones who needed to learn the most have seemingly never learned a thing.
The young ones at the time, like Gröning, display a level of detachment that gives us a window to see how these murders could actually take place on such a stunning scale. That is useful, because we should never forget the monsters or, crucially, those who enabled them to carry out their efforts at obtaining a Final Solution. Obviously, we will greatly miss the wisdom and eloquence of the survivors. They have taught us so much, even if the ones who needed to learn the most have seemingly never learned a thing.
15
"Never again". Good luck with that as it seems the same feelings in Germany are on the rise with the difference being the "Untermensch" are now Muslim though anti-Semitism is also on the rise in Europe just not as visible, for obvious reasons, in Germany.
Mr. Groning's crimes were, indeed, the crimes of all Germans. The camps were "touted" by the government in the early years (1933-1935) as a place for "re-education" of politically undesirable or socially undesirable people: Jews, Social Democrats, Communists, homosexuals, Gypsies, basically, anyone "tainting" the true Aryan blood would, eventually, be "re-educated" by being worked to death.
The "system" was fine until 1942 when it became obvious that Germany, despite Hitler's diatribes, was going to lose the war and the "camps" would be evidence of their crimes. The German population would, ultimately, pay the price for these horrors but for that same population to claim "ignorance" of, at least, anti-Semitism is an historical "cover up".
In late 1944 through 1945, the attempts at "destroying" evidence was paramount involving the accelerated deaths of thousands more "undesirables".
Yet with a resurgent and bellicose Russia on the loose, Germany is, once more, paramount in the defense of the European Union as history tells me the only foil to a strong Russia is a strong Germany.
Let's hope we've learned enough not to repeat ALL of history.
Mr. Groning's crimes were, indeed, the crimes of all Germans. The camps were "touted" by the government in the early years (1933-1935) as a place for "re-education" of politically undesirable or socially undesirable people: Jews, Social Democrats, Communists, homosexuals, Gypsies, basically, anyone "tainting" the true Aryan blood would, eventually, be "re-educated" by being worked to death.
The "system" was fine until 1942 when it became obvious that Germany, despite Hitler's diatribes, was going to lose the war and the "camps" would be evidence of their crimes. The German population would, ultimately, pay the price for these horrors but for that same population to claim "ignorance" of, at least, anti-Semitism is an historical "cover up".
In late 1944 through 1945, the attempts at "destroying" evidence was paramount involving the accelerated deaths of thousands more "undesirables".
Yet with a resurgent and bellicose Russia on the loose, Germany is, once more, paramount in the defense of the European Union as history tells me the only foil to a strong Russia is a strong Germany.
Let's hope we've learned enough not to repeat ALL of history.
5
I wonder how many Nazi's escaped after the war are still living and hiding. Did they emigrate to Australia, South America? I am sure many other children born in Germany during those last years of the war are alive, and aging, and also have memories of discussions with their parents to share.
4
You don't have to look to far flung countries to find Nazi murderers. Right here in the US... many, many thousands slipped into the United States after the war, while our government turned a blind eye. It's interesting that reporters and journalists wrote articles over the years, about Nazi communities established in Florida and elsewhere in the US, yet these Nazi murderers were never hounded and brought to justice. Hiding in plain sight, living out their long lives, without an ounce of punishment for their heinous crimes against humanity.
1
Watch the documentary film "Hitler's Children."
1
The National Socialists rose to power in Germany as the result of a Faustian bargain with the status quo, since they were the only ones who could effectively counter the Communists in the streets. I think that it is fair to say that few could have imagined what the outcome would ultimately be, but the signs early on indicated that things would not go well for many people and that supporters needed to make an increasing number of compromises. It all happened relatively quickly, as it was only about a quarter if century from the early beginnings to the end of WWII in Europe. As a contrast slavery in the United States lasted almost 250 years.
I would tend to disagree that action instead of ideology is needed when people vow 'never again', as the reason why people do things forms the basis of their moral reasoning more than their actions do. Being tolerant of others may merely be a result of a social code or laws, actions which may conceal a range of prejudices or worse. The inability to see others as fellow humans and interact in a moral way is the springboard to evils like the Holocaust, as moral reasoning should serve to check the actions of people, their communities and the country they live in before events reach such a scale.
In the United States fascism will come wrapped in the flag and bearing a cross.
I would tend to disagree that action instead of ideology is needed when people vow 'never again', as the reason why people do things forms the basis of their moral reasoning more than their actions do. Being tolerant of others may merely be a result of a social code or laws, actions which may conceal a range of prejudices or worse. The inability to see others as fellow humans and interact in a moral way is the springboard to evils like the Holocaust, as moral reasoning should serve to check the actions of people, their communities and the country they live in before events reach such a scale.
In the United States fascism will come wrapped in the flag and bearing a cross.
11
I fear that you are being overly partial and unnecessarily polarizing by accusing Christians of somehow paving the road to fascism. Fascism could just as well come wrapped in a rainbow flag. The task for a civilized society is to recognize totalitarian ideology and not be distracted by whatever packaging it comes in.
3
Germany is an exemplar of both evil and atonement.
As a 58 year old American Jew I grew up around survivors. Looking at the pictures in Time Life's History of WW2 burned images of mountain heaps of emaciated naked bodies into my brain at the age of 5. I've been to Yad Vashem, watched all 9.5 hours of Shoah, read countless books and articles, seen the lampshades, the bars of soap. This past winter when I emptied the ashes from the fire of our cozy wood stove, as in years past, I often thought of the human ashes of Auschwitz. The Holocaust is a part of me even though I wasn't there.
The first time I travelled to Germany in 1996 I remember descending to 10,000 feet and thinking "bomb bay doors open". Walking through the streets of Koln, touring Hamburg and Frankfurt, I felt schadenfreude noting that practically every building was built post war. "They got what the deserved," I thought.
But I also noted, in unexpected places, on street posts, sides of buildings, in parks and on bridges, small signs and plaques marking spots where Nazis committed atrocities. The city museums openly discussed the complicity of their citizens. Acknowledgment of the wrongs of the Holocaust were everywhere.
Add in the reparations paid, the public policies, the teaching in classrooms.
The evil cannot be undone. But in atonement Germany has set an example for other nations of the world to follow.
As a 58 year old American Jew I grew up around survivors. Looking at the pictures in Time Life's History of WW2 burned images of mountain heaps of emaciated naked bodies into my brain at the age of 5. I've been to Yad Vashem, watched all 9.5 hours of Shoah, read countless books and articles, seen the lampshades, the bars of soap. This past winter when I emptied the ashes from the fire of our cozy wood stove, as in years past, I often thought of the human ashes of Auschwitz. The Holocaust is a part of me even though I wasn't there.
The first time I travelled to Germany in 1996 I remember descending to 10,000 feet and thinking "bomb bay doors open". Walking through the streets of Koln, touring Hamburg and Frankfurt, I felt schadenfreude noting that practically every building was built post war. "They got what the deserved," I thought.
But I also noted, in unexpected places, on street posts, sides of buildings, in parks and on bridges, small signs and plaques marking spots where Nazis committed atrocities. The city museums openly discussed the complicity of their citizens. Acknowledgment of the wrongs of the Holocaust were everywhere.
Add in the reparations paid, the public policies, the teaching in classrooms.
The evil cannot be undone. But in atonement Germany has set an example for other nations of the world to follow.
199
There is a Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. America primarily remembering and mourning the holocaust that was not perpetrated in America by Americans against Americans. While 98% of Americans are not Jewish 40% of the world's 15 million Jews live in America. Another 40% live in Israel.
I am the 60 year-old son of a US Army Air Force veteran who completed 39 missions as a gunner in a B-17 over Europe during the war. I lived for a dozen years in Germany during the 1980s and 1990s, married a German woman, and our son was born in Berlin. So I know the German people quite well. On the surface, Germany has atoned quite well for the Nazi period, especially compared to the Japanese and their war crimes. However, Germans still consider themselves ethnically superior to everyone else, especially their close Slavic neighbors. The many Germans I know don't consider Russians or Ukrainians European. I cannot repeat the words they use for people with African ancestry. So don't be fooled by all the memorials in Germany commemorating Hans and Sophie Scholl or the July 1944 Hitler assassination attempt. Germans are still brimming with the arrogance that eventually led to the Holocaust.
2
Nicely put. To cite another example of Germany taking responsibility where others shirk, compare the German government's response to the Germanwings disaster with that of Egypt's response to EgyptAir 990. Once the first evidence of a deliberate act emerged, Egypt circled the wagons, frustrated the NTSB investigation (which Egypt requested) and unleashed a flood of disinformation. Presented with similar evidence, German leaders followed up with a rigorous and uncompromising quest for the truth
2
In the first years after WW2, there were plenty of Nazis around, and plenty of hardship of the sort to which they'd appealled.
Is that today's Germany? Is Germany teetering on the edge of going Nazi all over again? Really?
It isn't the same place. It won't go Nazi any more than we will. Of course, it isn't impossible that any nation could go over the edge, but it isn't any more likely to be Germany than anywhere else, maybe less so.
Is that today's Germany? Is Germany teetering on the edge of going Nazi all over again? Really?
It isn't the same place. It won't go Nazi any more than we will. Of course, it isn't impossible that any nation could go over the edge, but it isn't any more likely to be Germany than anywhere else, maybe less so.
19
The Brits and Americans collated, criminals, scientists, families and displaced youth from the Nazi regime to be relocated to places in the USA where communist influence was believed to be a National security issue. Such other covert operations have come to light since, with their accompanying technologies, such as Operation Paper clip in the US as well as many other unrevealed details of, scientific and covert intelligence ops. They are "Sociopaths" by contemporary definition, claiming ownership to issues and properties that do not belong to them.
The conqueror speaks in imperious tones that transcend language. How do we question our forebears about what their (and our) military did to the Native American nations from the Cherokee to the Lakota Sioux to the Apache?
This week, the world's focus is on the Kardashians, who have traveled to Armenia to note the 100th anniversary of the genocide of over a million Armenians by the Ottoman Turks. My own people, the Irish Catholics, were decimated by British neglect during the 1840's. In our time, Hutu resentment kindled a massacre of Tutsis in Rwanda.
Recently in America, uniformed police have killed black citizens, sometimes with impunity. We wring our hands, but then the television reminds us, as Hitler so often reminded Germans, that "those people" harbor evil intent toward us and that anything we do to attack or oppress them is really just retaliation toward what they are planning to do to us. By the time that Nazis started killing Jews in numbers, German citizens had listened for years without major objection to rhetoric blaming Jews for the country's ills.
What have we learned? That we talk a good game on the subjects of human dignity and the value of human life, but when our government invades a foreign country, killing and torturing its citizens, we often find it easier to be "good Germans" than good people.
Ask the detainee at Guantanamo. I imagine that he will tell you a story.
Let's not wait until Rumsfeld's 90.
This week, the world's focus is on the Kardashians, who have traveled to Armenia to note the 100th anniversary of the genocide of over a million Armenians by the Ottoman Turks. My own people, the Irish Catholics, were decimated by British neglect during the 1840's. In our time, Hutu resentment kindled a massacre of Tutsis in Rwanda.
Recently in America, uniformed police have killed black citizens, sometimes with impunity. We wring our hands, but then the television reminds us, as Hitler so often reminded Germans, that "those people" harbor evil intent toward us and that anything we do to attack or oppress them is really just retaliation toward what they are planning to do to us. By the time that Nazis started killing Jews in numbers, German citizens had listened for years without major objection to rhetoric blaming Jews for the country's ills.
What have we learned? That we talk a good game on the subjects of human dignity and the value of human life, but when our government invades a foreign country, killing and torturing its citizens, we often find it easier to be "good Germans" than good people.
Ask the detainee at Guantanamo. I imagine that he will tell you a story.
Let's not wait until Rumsfeld's 90.
155
Sorry but it really is completely nonsensical and ridiculous to put some sort of moral blame on Mr Groning. He did absolutely nothing wrong. He was doing his job as a young man. I would do the same had i been born into the same cirumstances. So would 99% of the readers of this article. Wider society might be angry that the Holocaust happened at all, but society has no right to take that anger out on a single individual who was not involved in any major decisions and has not been implicated in any specific crimes beyond being present at the scene.
You have to judge people according to the time and circumstances. Its easy now in the 21st Century for people living in liberal societies to wag their finger. But please dont try to claim that you would risk being shot by speaking up, especially if you had been educated that the Jews were sub-human.
You have to judge people according to the time and circumstances. Its easy now in the 21st Century for people living in liberal societies to wag their finger. But please dont try to claim that you would risk being shot by speaking up, especially if you had been educated that the Jews were sub-human.
134
Except there were Germans who resisted. There were people who helped Jews escape. Many were caught and killed, others managed to evade detection. Those who did resist are celebrated and revered today.
The tragedy of the human condition is that most of us would not stand up and risk it all to stop genocide. BUT the lesson is that history rewards those who do and condemns those who don't. Even though God is dead, there is still a reason to act morally. You need to be able to look your grandchildren in the eye when they asked "what did you do?"
The tragedy of the human condition is that most of us would not stand up and risk it all to stop genocide. BUT the lesson is that history rewards those who do and condemns those who don't. Even though God is dead, there is still a reason to act morally. You need to be able to look your grandchildren in the eye when they asked "what did you do?"
19
There's a difference between complicity and active resistance. The man was complicit in making the machine of murder and theft work ON THE SCENE. No one was forced to work at a concentration camp according to those who did. We are all responsible for our actions and decisions; "just following orders" doesn't cut it, sorry.
19
He did nothing wrong?!?? He is on trial for complicity in the murder of at least 300,000 people, you know. And it's "nonsensical and ridiculous" to put moral blame on him?
18
There is an unfortunate tendency in popular media to portray the evils of the Third Reich as supernatural or outwordly. I am referring to comic culture products in which the SS and Nazi party are shown to be in league with forces from hell or someother source of mystic evil. As understandable as that is in artistic terms when trying to wrap around the magnitude and wickedness of the crimes comitted, it is dangerous when being presented to a young generation that might lose sight of the simple but very grim fact that the perpetrators of the "final solution" were by and large average people. Yes, and this is one of the hardest things to swallow: average people like you and me, and not some abstract and alien force that we have no control over. One lesson that not only Germany must keep in mind from the Nazi era is that evil lurks within us, that human beings (not some abstract demons) are capable of comitting unspeakable atrocities on an industrial scale, be it by active participation or by passive complicity, and that it is the purpose and goal of any civilized society to ensure that such evil never manisfests itself again.
78
Oskar Gröning is an example of Nazi Inflation.
Somehow the Nazi-hunters get a weirdly sensational spectacle and Germans get to scape-goat others. Their "never again" mantra has a very ugly underside to it -- Hitler's vision of a Jew-free Europe was largely accomplished and remains.
There were 18 million Jews in Europe in 1938. Today, 70 years after America stopped the Holocaust, there are only 2 million Jews there. By the time the Jewish population recovers to its pre-Holocaust levels in nominal and percentage terms -- the "never again" mantra will have long been --forgotten. In short, the Semitic population levels that allegedly caused social, economic, and cultural frictions may appear never again.
Somehow the Nazi-hunters get a weirdly sensational spectacle and Germans get to scape-goat others. Their "never again" mantra has a very ugly underside to it -- Hitler's vision of a Jew-free Europe was largely accomplished and remains.
There were 18 million Jews in Europe in 1938. Today, 70 years after America stopped the Holocaust, there are only 2 million Jews there. By the time the Jewish population recovers to its pre-Holocaust levels in nominal and percentage terms -- the "never again" mantra will have long been --forgotten. In short, the Semitic population levels that allegedly caused social, economic, and cultural frictions may appear never again.
6
"Never again?"
This stuff all feels so much better when we allow ourselves to distance it--when we think of it as a bit of ancient history, a German thing, can't happen here, let's learn from the Past and we'll be fine.
But of course the revival of pernicious, hateful, increasingly violent strains of right-racism as a political tool isn't ancient history. It's an ugly reality confronting us right now throughout the West, including, very much, very tragically, here in the US.
All around the world, parties of the extreme right are grabbing and holding power by appealing to racial rage. In the US the Republican Party, with virtually nothing of substance to offer its base--no rehabilitation of our rotting infrastructure, no jobs programs, no restoration of fair, progressive tax policies, no rededication to our once-great public education system, certainly no sane solutions to potentially lethal crises of environmental decline and income inequality and militarism--increasingly win elections by manipulating cultural and racial rage.
It's a terrifying fact about human beings that when we are frightened (and we are so very easy to frighten--ask Karl Rove), demagogues can manipulate us into believing (and doing) the most appalling things, things we would be horrified for our grandchildren to learn about later on, if ever the world restabilizes and this awful era of the oligarchs recedes without having done permanent and maximum damage.
Of course, that's a big "if."
This stuff all feels so much better when we allow ourselves to distance it--when we think of it as a bit of ancient history, a German thing, can't happen here, let's learn from the Past and we'll be fine.
But of course the revival of pernicious, hateful, increasingly violent strains of right-racism as a political tool isn't ancient history. It's an ugly reality confronting us right now throughout the West, including, very much, very tragically, here in the US.
All around the world, parties of the extreme right are grabbing and holding power by appealing to racial rage. In the US the Republican Party, with virtually nothing of substance to offer its base--no rehabilitation of our rotting infrastructure, no jobs programs, no restoration of fair, progressive tax policies, no rededication to our once-great public education system, certainly no sane solutions to potentially lethal crises of environmental decline and income inequality and militarism--increasingly win elections by manipulating cultural and racial rage.
It's a terrifying fact about human beings that when we are frightened (and we are so very easy to frighten--ask Karl Rove), demagogues can manipulate us into believing (and doing) the most appalling things, things we would be horrified for our grandchildren to learn about later on, if ever the world restabilizes and this awful era of the oligarchs recedes without having done permanent and maximum damage.
Of course, that's a big "if."
87
Merely because you disagree with conservative policies, that does not make us Nazis. That comparison devalues the horror committed by the Nazis. So now, are you really trying to say that lowering marginal tax rates should draw a comparison to Nazi Germany?
2
Seems to me that's it's the liberal left feeding the hate for the Jewish people this time around. How would you know what the Republican party has to offer when everything was trashed as soon as it hit the senate? The extreme left is heading us to socialism which we know doesn't work.
2
It is time to put World War 2 behind us. It is time to stop these publicity-driven trials where rules of evidence go out the window and no real purpose is served.
7
There are lots of new books that have come out as various countries have begun releasing previously classified information detailing how few war criminals were actually prosecuted after WW2. These books and the trial cited in the article remind us that Fascism is an ideology that remains just under the surface in many countries hiding under the guise of ultra patriotism.
1
How can you make up a blanket statement about the evidence, if you weren't present at a slew of Nazi trials? While justice in this case may not be important to you, it is important to those families who lost loved ones. Justice for the victim(s) is imperative in any case of murder or genocide. Be grateful if you didn't lose any family to the Nazis.
2
Why so? No real purpose for you. Evidence is loud and clear when survivors get to face those monsters in court. Should survivors of these crimes against humanity go to their graves knowing that justice was never served?
3
It's a big leap to conclude that Germany should open its boarders to refuges. There are too many people who want to leave their countries.
With or without the German history, a better solution would be to help the countries become places that people don't want to leave.
With or without the German history, a better solution would be to help the countries become places that people don't want to leave.
41
Yes, but to do that effectively the west needs to take on the tyrants / kleptocrats who have currently have control of these failed states. As opposed to legitimising them as we currently do.
I'm reading Acemoglu and Robinson's 'Why Nations Fail' and their insights (into the way 'extractive' economic and political institutions reinforce each other to oppress the poor) seem of practical use.
The West / UN need to find ways of effectively establishing/supporting inclusive economic and political institutions in failed regions.
Perhaps failed states could fall under UN governance until their equality index reaches a reasonable level.
I'm reading Acemoglu and Robinson's 'Why Nations Fail' and their insights (into the way 'extractive' economic and political institutions reinforce each other to oppress the poor) seem of practical use.
The West / UN need to find ways of effectively establishing/supporting inclusive economic and political institutions in failed regions.
Perhaps failed states could fall under UN governance until their equality index reaches a reasonable level.
Perhaps the re-think as well as re-feel requires examining thoughts & feelings underpinning racism. This could range from not realizing but believing in cultural/racial pride morphing into cultural/racial superiority.for example, it's one thing to be proud of one's cultural background & quite another to believe in the superiority of the culture to other cultures while not consciously realizing it.
13
"'believe in the superiority of the culture to other cultures"
But of course some cultures are exponentially superior to others.
Is The Democratic Republic of the Congo equal to what the USA used to be? To consider all people and all cultures as equal is a form of nihilism,
and requires one to believe that Nazi culture was no worse than others. It always turns out that egalitarians haven't thought about the consequences of their stupidity.
But of course some cultures are exponentially superior to others.
Is The Democratic Republic of the Congo equal to what the USA used to be? To consider all people and all cultures as equal is a form of nihilism,
and requires one to believe that Nazi culture was no worse than others. It always turns out that egalitarians haven't thought about the consequences of their stupidity.
2
"One day, when my young son takes an interest in German literature, he’ll inevitably read Günther Grass" who we now know to have been a member of the Nazi party. I don't know if Mr. Groning's complicity was anymore than guarding an exit ramp. If so - then he is or was certainly no Eichman or Dr. Mengele - deserved of execution.
The game of capturing and prosecuting old responsible Nazis nears an end. Somehow having it end with the prosecution of a mere orderly demeans the effort.
The game of capturing and prosecuting old responsible Nazis nears an end. Somehow having it end with the prosecution of a mere orderly demeans the effort.
33
A book keeper in the Camp is prosecuted, BUT, a scientist from the same regime, whose inventions rained thosands of tons of explosives on a civilian population is not only excused but granted special amnesty and goes on to head NASA and put a man on the moon!! Remember Wehner von Braun?
42
"prosecution of a mere orderly demeans the effort"
I must most strenuously disagree. Those who took part in or supported the shoah (holocaust) in any level are guilty, if only on a moral level. People have freedom of choice and are responsible for their actions. That is the way that western civilization is supposed to work.
The main point of this very moving article is that we must all learn and unfortunately be reminded of the dangers of genocide and prejudice. The challenge is how to accomplish this vis a vis the shoah when the perpetrators and survivors are all gone.
The main
I must most strenuously disagree. Those who took part in or supported the shoah (holocaust) in any level are guilty, if only on a moral level. People have freedom of choice and are responsible for their actions. That is the way that western civilization is supposed to work.
The main point of this very moving article is that we must all learn and unfortunately be reminded of the dangers of genocide and prejudice. The challenge is how to accomplish this vis a vis the shoah when the perpetrators and survivors are all gone.
The main
13
Mr. Groening was not a 'mere' orderly at Auschwitz who guarded an exit ramp. First, he volunteered to become a member of the SS, the most brutal arm of the Nazi murder machine, emphasis on volunteered.
Second, he was the head bookkeeper Auschwitz confiscating all cash and other valuables from those arriving, meticulously keeping book and sending the loot back to Berlin to the party headquarter.
Third, he was hiding the luggage of those sent immediately from the ramp into the gas chambers in order that the new arrivals wouldn't know their fate.
When the statement of Groening that the murders in the gas chambers were 'orderly' and 'clean', and 'that's how things went on in concentration camps' do not send shudders of disgust and disbelief down anyones spine, the 'never again' becomes just an empty phrase.
Second, he was the head bookkeeper Auschwitz confiscating all cash and other valuables from those arriving, meticulously keeping book and sending the loot back to Berlin to the party headquarter.
Third, he was hiding the luggage of those sent immediately from the ramp into the gas chambers in order that the new arrivals wouldn't know their fate.
When the statement of Groening that the murders in the gas chambers were 'orderly' and 'clean', and 'that's how things went on in concentration camps' do not send shudders of disgust and disbelief down anyones spine, the 'never again' becomes just an empty phrase.
22
My 10 year experience in Germany showed me something different. I left in 2014 because the racial tensions are becoming uncomfortable. The point is, beside the Political side show in Nuremberg, how may Nazis and sympathizer have been convicted by German legal system? NONE In 1964, the CDU (Merkel's Political Party) presented a motion to offer full amnesty to all Nazis members and collaborators, the motion was defeated by the SPD, nevertheless the perpetrators were never to be disturbed. I'm convinced that if the Germans would have used the same fervor and dedication to eradicate the Jew problem that would have succeeded. But alas, there is a Clan mentality in the German culture that trump any other consideration. I never heard a German talking about their atrocities, I heard them talking about how the Jews own the world financial system, how they are killing Palestinians, how the disgusting and stupid Americans are treating the African-American, I heard all that but never anything about their own deeds. It seems to me that part of history has been completely erased. The only few words I heard about their atrocities was personal denial "Hitler was not my friend" and nothing more. There are still 4 murder cases open in the court of Lübek for the murder of 3 children and 1 woman that were murdered just in the last day of the war when they tried to escape the march to the Cap Arcona genocide. Good Germans took care to arrest and kill them. The cases were never prosecuted.
84
I'm not sure where you lived in Germany, although I can generally make what is a pretty good guess, and I can suggest that your experience is not representative of the entire country or the entirety of the people and culture, based on my years of living there. My german husband's retarded aunt and uncle were euthanized, murdered, by the Nazis for different reasons than the jews, but murdered nonetheless. Not all germans were guilty and not all were complicit, and as a country they have taken extraordinary efforts to address the root causes and ensure that it could never happen again, in contrast to many countries. Maybe after we make reparations to native americans we will have more of moral platform from which to criticize their efforts.
4
When thinking about "Germany," we should understand that the former east German state considered itself to be the political expression of German anti-facism. Its policies were much harder on former Nazis than west Germany was, which considered itself the successor state to the Third Reich. Thus while east Germany paid war reparations to the Soviet Union, it was not obliged to pay reparations to the victims of Nazi Germany.
6
The reality is way more complex than that suffice to say that the DDR had a very simple position: East Germans had nothing to do with German atrocities. They paid war reparation and sent people to work in Russia because they were happy to oblige.
In all my research I never come across any documents showing that the DDR was "much harder on former (sic) Nazis" quite to the contrary as it was very well illustrated in the propaganda movie (authorized by the Russian Occupation Force) Rotation (1949). There is no country named Nazi Germany, please stick to the fact; Germany unless you are part of the German propaganda that wants you to believe that Germans and Germany never ever took part in the Atrocities; watch PBS Frontline film "Never Forget to Lie" by Marian Marzynski. Watch it, listen to it, they do not talk of Nazi Germany, they do not talk of Nazi soldier or Officer, they talk of Germans killing and torturing them. Eisenhower was right when he wrote to General Marshall: The visual evidence and the verbal testimony of starvation, cruelty and bestiality were so overpowering as to leave me a bit sick. In one room, where they [there] were piled up twenty or thirty naked men, killed by starvation, George Patton would not even enter. He said that he would get sick if he did so. I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first-hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations merely to "propaganda".
In all my research I never come across any documents showing that the DDR was "much harder on former (sic) Nazis" quite to the contrary as it was very well illustrated in the propaganda movie (authorized by the Russian Occupation Force) Rotation (1949). There is no country named Nazi Germany, please stick to the fact; Germany unless you are part of the German propaganda that wants you to believe that Germans and Germany never ever took part in the Atrocities; watch PBS Frontline film "Never Forget to Lie" by Marian Marzynski. Watch it, listen to it, they do not talk of Nazi Germany, they do not talk of Nazi soldier or Officer, they talk of Germans killing and torturing them. Eisenhower was right when he wrote to General Marshall: The visual evidence and the verbal testimony of starvation, cruelty and bestiality were so overpowering as to leave me a bit sick. In one room, where they [there] were piled up twenty or thirty naked men, killed by starvation, George Patton would not even enter. He said that he would get sick if he did so. I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first-hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations merely to "propaganda".
3
You do realize that East Germany was a puppet state of the USSR, right? They were essentially a colony.
2
I'm looking forward to centenarians being put on trial. Perhaps Germany should devote its full technological might to the issue of life extension so it can keep Nazi war criminals alive to constantly be put on trial.
18
How can you make light of this? And your idea is to have no prosecutions? I think you may need to understand the history of what happened.
7
Your view is: If you can hide from authorities until old age, you can kill with impunity. Thankfully, this kind of "justice" is non-existent in the US.
1
Compassion,reading Anne Frank,refugees,tolerance ,an overpopulation of humanists?Words,words so many words silted up,worn out,routine besides usefull in the headline :Why ... ... ... Usefull.
the word usefull upsets me, materializing a whole system .
No need for a younger generation to live on or under a pile of corpses,no need to live on pity, for heaven's sake no,enough attraction to bitterness by movies,literature and more and more the aspect of entertainment .
It is not that easy to shape your life "besides" the highways,let me say with נשמה [soul]!
the word usefull upsets me, materializing a whole system .
No need for a younger generation to live on or under a pile of corpses,no need to live on pity, for heaven's sake no,enough attraction to bitterness by movies,literature and more and more the aspect of entertainment .
It is not that easy to shape your life "besides" the highways,let me say with נשמה [soul]!
1
you are to be commended , I hope that many will read and appreciate your article . It is almost impossible to understand the magnitude of the Holocaust and the minds of those who created and went along with it . Hopefuly this cannot happen again but the past history must be taught again and again to prevent the evil rising again .
21
Evil has risen.
Why do not the nations gather a coalition of 500,000 soldiers to wipe out the evil savagery of ISIS, Hezbollah, Hama's, Fatah, Muslim Brotherhood, Book Haram, etc.?
Why do not the nations gather a coalition of 500,000 soldiers to wipe out the evil savagery of ISIS, Hezbollah, Hama's, Fatah, Muslim Brotherhood, Book Haram, etc.?
2
The Nazi regime changed to gas chambers when it appeared that mass executions were too stressful for the executioners. And they subcontracted much of the dirty work to prisoners and collaborators. The "banalization" of murder is foremost about keeping things at enough distance so that the instinctual aversion to murdering someone is avoided - while the higher level moral objections are countered with propaganda.
One has to ask whether the same mechanism is at work when the Obama administration fuels a civil war in Syria that kills 220,000 or when it supports Saudi bombings in Yemen that likely will push the country into starvation.
One has to ask whether the same mechanism is at work when the Obama administration fuels a civil war in Syria that kills 220,000 or when it supports Saudi bombings in Yemen that likely will push the country into starvation.
30
"One has to ask whether the same mechanism is at work when..." George Bush prosecuted a phony war in Iraq, killing tens of thousands, a perfect modern example that you have noticeably left out of your accusation.
6
What we are doing there is no different than the Holocaust.? "Fueling" and "support" in a war? Maybe you should clarify because it's sounding like you don't know the history of the Holicaust.
3
I'm not too sure the change to gas chambers was to assist the SS soldiers handle their stress. It was cheaper and faster.
I'm glad this Nazi is being tried. Not only for the retribution he deserves, but those deniers now have another reason to learn they are wrong.
I'm glad this Nazi is being tried. Not only for the retribution he deserves, but those deniers now have another reason to learn they are wrong.
4
I would like to see the lessons of the holocaust generalised; applied to people and societies in general, and in the present and future not just the past.
We would all, especially me, benefit from copying Sauerbrey's clear eyed inward reflection and realism.
And all western societies, including the UK, the US and Israel could take a look at what Germany has done in its educational system and elsewhere, to guard against the misuse of force; and adapt the best of it into our own practice.
We would all, especially me, benefit from copying Sauerbrey's clear eyed inward reflection and realism.
And all western societies, including the UK, the US and Israel could take a look at what Germany has done in its educational system and elsewhere, to guard against the misuse of force; and adapt the best of it into our own practice.
55
Israel already teaches the Holocaust in school - the UK and USA, not so much. Wonder why you left out Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Gaza - or any Arab country for that matter.
3
The holocaust was much more than a crime or a series of crimes against an an entire group of people. It was a system of hundreds of years of practice of PRESCRIPTIVE strereotyping which is practiced in order to elevate ones own dominant group to power status weath and control AND to reduce the other classes of people to inferiority to objects so that our oppression exploitation and even murder of them can be done with indifference casualness and even justification.
Today this process is seen in continued blaming of Israel for its impossible situation FOR our oppression of black Americans and for us denying equal rights to women and gay people throughout the works cloaked in prescriptive stereotypes of religious freedom.
Banality is an outcome NOT a cause of evil. Evil is allowing ourselves to become a part of this system of stereotyping and behavior
Today this process is seen in continued blaming of Israel for its impossible situation FOR our oppression of black Americans and for us denying equal rights to women and gay people throughout the works cloaked in prescriptive stereotypes of religious freedom.
Banality is an outcome NOT a cause of evil. Evil is allowing ourselves to become a part of this system of stereotyping and behavior
61
Well said - I think your statement is one of the most succinct and complete description of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians .
"PRESCRIPTIVE stereotyping which is practiced in order to elevate ones own dominant group to power status weath and control AND to reduce the other classes of people to inferiority to objects so that our oppression exploitation and even murder of them can be done with indifference casualness and even justification. "
"PRESCRIPTIVE stereotyping which is practiced in order to elevate ones own dominant group to power status weath and control AND to reduce the other classes of people to inferiority to objects so that our oppression exploitation and even murder of them can be done with indifference casualness and even justification. "
Oh I had a feeling something like this was bound to happen--now we're supposed to feel sorry for the few remaining aging ex- Nazis left alive 70 years after the Holocaust ended. Herr Groning reminds me of Sgt Schultz of Hogan's Heroes with his constant refrain of "I see nothing. I hear nothing. I know nothing about everything." That was the typical attitude of Holocaust-era Germany--a whole nation feverently embraced the lunatic ranting of an Austrian housepainter who told them they were the Master Race and that Jews were untermenschen who were unfit to live among Aryan Supermen. To Herr Groning the Jews dispatched to the gas chambers of Auschwitz was probably just another day at the office. Nothing to see here.
53
You missed the point of Mr. Gronig's essay.
4
comp,
i think you missed the entire essay. It wasn't written by the Nazi, Groning. It was written by Anna Sauerbrey.
i think you missed the entire essay. It wasn't written by the Nazi, Groning. It was written by Anna Sauerbrey.
3
I think you missed the point that the author of the column was making.
She is not trying to make you feel sorry for Groning, but as I understand it, we should feel sorry for ourselves if we dont understand that it could all happen again through our own actions. This alinea tells us that :
"Mr. Gröning makes us question ourselves. I, too, am afraid I wouldn’t have resisted. The victims tell us: We must never forget. The perpetrators say: We might do it again."
She is not trying to make you feel sorry for Groning, but as I understand it, we should feel sorry for ourselves if we dont understand that it could all happen again through our own actions. This alinea tells us that :
"Mr. Gröning makes us question ourselves. I, too, am afraid I wouldn’t have resisted. The victims tell us: We must never forget. The perpetrators say: We might do it again."
6
At 93 years old and he is not actually accused of killing anyone, he was a book keeper, what is the point. Assume the star chamber does its job and he is convicted. Sentenced to be executed slowly and painfully, you are shortening his life by a year or three?? Let us face it, at this point these people have beaten the rap.
No one denies he was/is a monster but he is an old monster already waiting to die what is gained by speeding the process now?
No one denies he was/is a monster but he is an old monster already waiting to die what is gained by speeding the process now?
13
The trial is more important than the execution, if it happens.
Bottom line, he got to live into his 90's, the victims of the Holocaust were robbed of that opportunity. 1.5 million Jewish children were murdered. There is nothing anyone can do to anyone to make that 'right' - this trial will remind people that it happened and that might be enough.
Bottom line, he got to live into his 90's, the victims of the Holocaust were robbed of that opportunity. 1.5 million Jewish children were murdered. There is nothing anyone can do to anyone to make that 'right' - this trial will remind people that it happened and that might be enough.
5
Justice.
5
This may be hard to grasp but it's called accountability. One day perhaps an aging group of our own will be in the dock. Will the torturers say they were just following orders or as I heard one of our ex-leaders say, "everything we did was legal." Of course it was. At Nuremberg when they didn't outright deny their crimes they said exactly those things.
10
Germany has, to their credit, made repentance and revulsion of the holocaust a part of their national identity.
Meanwhile, Japan has yet to make 1/100 of Germany's effort to atone for their decades of brutality and mass murder in China and Korea, which they occupied from 1910-1945.
Meanwhile, Japan has yet to make 1/100 of Germany's effort to atone for their decades of brutality and mass murder in China and Korea, which they occupied from 1910-1945.
154
Really!!!
From when have you joined the propaganda department of the German people.
There is difference between war & Genocide.
Have you met any Greeks lately they will tell you of German Compassion & Repentence.
What a joke?
From when have you joined the propaganda department of the German people.
There is difference between war & Genocide.
Have you met any Greeks lately they will tell you of German Compassion & Repentence.
What a joke?
A difference between war and genocide? So FIFTY-FIVE million people dying in World War Two is meaningless and six million dying in camps is more important...interesting.
I wonder how many capos (prisoners and collaborators) who were ordered, like the Germans, to perform mass murder were prosecuted and executed.
Never underestimate the propaganda value of the past when current politicians run out of ideas to get what they want.
Too bad "Never again" never applies to Palestinians.
I wonder how many capos (prisoners and collaborators) who were ordered, like the Germans, to perform mass murder were prosecuted and executed.
Never underestimate the propaganda value of the past when current politicians run out of ideas to get what they want.
Too bad "Never again" never applies to Palestinians.
1
Amen
1
For another reason we will miss the 'old nazis'.
For all the years after the war we grew very comfortable with our role, we were integrated into a western alliance, with the US on the lead, france and britain flexing their muscles with nuclear weapons. And we were just a pariah that everybody wanted to stay calm. This was very cozy, we could hide in the shadow of WW2.
When i went to university 25 years ago, our professor (Michael Wolffsohn, an israeli) told us we have no historical right for entrenchment, of couse in public he said we have no need for it. In 2011 the polish foreign minister Sikorski said, "i rather fear a weak than a strong germany" - a remark that caused some astonishment. And than this http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/culture-leaders-in-poland-rep... .
But most of a change i feel with the way we deal with greece, or rather how we have to deal with greece - because we would like to lay this burden on someone else. All the time it looks like a showdown between greece and germany, but politicians of all european nations come to Berlin and urge us to pull the plug. And the greeks cry out, don't you remember your past, what you have done to us ? And we ask all these european politician back, why us, don't you remember our past. And they tell us we are not allowed to hide us anymore.
With the last nazis dying we do realize, we in fact had it very easy in living in the past.
For all the years after the war we grew very comfortable with our role, we were integrated into a western alliance, with the US on the lead, france and britain flexing their muscles with nuclear weapons. And we were just a pariah that everybody wanted to stay calm. This was very cozy, we could hide in the shadow of WW2.
When i went to university 25 years ago, our professor (Michael Wolffsohn, an israeli) told us we have no historical right for entrenchment, of couse in public he said we have no need for it. In 2011 the polish foreign minister Sikorski said, "i rather fear a weak than a strong germany" - a remark that caused some astonishment. And than this http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/culture-leaders-in-poland-rep... .
But most of a change i feel with the way we deal with greece, or rather how we have to deal with greece - because we would like to lay this burden on someone else. All the time it looks like a showdown between greece and germany, but politicians of all european nations come to Berlin and urge us to pull the plug. And the greeks cry out, don't you remember your past, what you have done to us ? And we ask all these european politician back, why us, don't you remember our past. And they tell us we are not allowed to hide us anymore.
With the last nazis dying we do realize, we in fact had it very easy in living in the past.
12
Germans are great people, and good human beings. That does not absolve them from responsibility for the past.
The true meaning of the Thousand-Year Reich is that Germans must now remember and regret for a thousand years.