My last job was 30 years as a technician in a satellite control center and I was appalled at what I saw there and my previous experiences. I have a big mouth and will quote what the physics teacher said on my last day of high school (you had to pass a test to get in) when the two top students asked who had the highest grade.The biggest complainer, me. The spread in the lab alone was 95 to 85. I had no Idea. College turned out bad because I was an underachiever, although whenever I studied I had the top mark in class at Electrical Engineering. One teacher offered us a bonus solution, on the last day, to evaluate transistors. Filled all the black boards on a wall, then asked for the solution. Half the class raised their hands. After he knocked them all down, I raised mine and told him he had already solved the problem. The first equation in the upper left had no variables and you can crank all the others into the matrix in the lower right of all the blackboards and the answer comes out. He yelled "I told he is smart" and complained I "never come to class" but said he was passing me because I was smart. To make a long story short you can be a technical genius but it doesn't matter when your dealing with an MBA VP in charge of personnel. The Army was another: I'd rather see someone get it who tries hard than someone who it's
I would like my children to be college-educated regardless of whatever occupation they choose. At 22, there is still time to be a plumber if that's what one chooses. At the same time, we should encourage people to pursue studies later in life, too, after they've tried another path. While the American higher education system has many flaws, it does one thing really well: it gives second and third and fourth chances.
3
The "signalling" function of a degree is extremely common in Germany. In Germany, it is very difficult to advance to high positions in the business world or in politics without an advanced degree, especially a PhD.
The result is regular scandals where prominent persons are found to have plagiarized large portions of their dissertations; dissertations which were written solely because the person wanted to advance in their career, not because they were interested in advanced learning.
A second result is resorting to a foreign university, usually an American university, that is essentially a diploma mill, handing out PhDs for a few thousand dollars. Unless someone does some research on the university whose name is on the PhD diploma, there is no awareness that the person now being referred to as "Doctor" obtained their degree for "life experience" plus $10,000.
Again, there are regular news articles about the prevalence of diploma-mill PhDs held by prominent persons, or about the sheet number granted by specific diploma-mills.
And then the perennial question is raised: is the emphasis placed on the advanced degree really warranted if that degree is nothing more than the cost of getting a job promotion? Even when a person diligently does all of the work to obtain a PhD, that work often has very little relationship to their profession. So why expect a C-level executive to obtain a PhD rather than focus on their job?
The result is regular scandals where prominent persons are found to have plagiarized large portions of their dissertations; dissertations which were written solely because the person wanted to advance in their career, not because they were interested in advanced learning.
A second result is resorting to a foreign university, usually an American university, that is essentially a diploma mill, handing out PhDs for a few thousand dollars. Unless someone does some research on the university whose name is on the PhD diploma, there is no awareness that the person now being referred to as "Doctor" obtained their degree for "life experience" plus $10,000.
Again, there are regular news articles about the prevalence of diploma-mill PhDs held by prominent persons, or about the sheet number granted by specific diploma-mills.
And then the perennial question is raised: is the emphasis placed on the advanced degree really warranted if that degree is nothing more than the cost of getting a job promotion? Even when a person diligently does all of the work to obtain a PhD, that work often has very little relationship to their profession. So why expect a C-level executive to obtain a PhD rather than focus on their job?
2
Herr Doktor is a specifically German ailment. Not to say that a requirement for specific degree from a specific institution is specific to Germany Germany...
Vocational training in high school has never been taken seriously. We've let it to organized labor to create high-paying good jobs such as plumber that can't be sourced overseas. But some unions tend to be a closed shop, and don't provide equal access to all.
The solution: revamping infrastructure and greening everyday buildings will help to provide more high-quality jobs to a greater number of people.
The solution: revamping infrastructure and greening everyday buildings will help to provide more high-quality jobs to a greater number of people.
I live in a modest home in a fabulous small neighborhood composed of a variety of professionals with undergraduate and graduate degrees (teachers, bankers, nurses) as well as skilled trades (electricians, etc). Each person provides something of value and no one created any of the CDOs that helped collapse the economy. However, we are mostly surrounded by McMansions filled with folks whose professional contribution to society is not so clearcut and have watched their nearly million dollar homes rebound in price more than the total value of ours ---while our homes and salaries stagnate.
In this brave new world, clearly some types of "education" pays more than others.
In this brave new world, clearly some types of "education" pays more than others.
15
"Don’t you think an employer would prefer to pay a lower salary for an equally skilled employee? There is a huge incentive for the labor market to “work” properly like that. But, no, they pay more for the college educated student, presumably because there is more there to pay for."
This is the same line of thinking used to claim that there can't possibly be a pay gap between men and women who are equally skilled performing the same job. Just replace "college educated student" with "man".
There are other "non-rational" economic decisions that are rather common. Employers pass on more qualified black candidates for less qualified white candidates, even when the indicator of race is merely a "black-sounding" name.
Here's part of how it works: people place a value on being around people like them. In a business world that has been dominated by college educated white men, those college educated white men will pay, whether by higher salary or poorer quality employee, to be in a work environment full of people like them, college-educated white men,
They pay more because there is more there to pay for, but the more there to pay for is the comfort of being around people similar to you, not competency for the job.
This is the same line of thinking used to claim that there can't possibly be a pay gap between men and women who are equally skilled performing the same job. Just replace "college educated student" with "man".
There are other "non-rational" economic decisions that are rather common. Employers pass on more qualified black candidates for less qualified white candidates, even when the indicator of race is merely a "black-sounding" name.
Here's part of how it works: people place a value on being around people like them. In a business world that has been dominated by college educated white men, those college educated white men will pay, whether by higher salary or poorer quality employee, to be in a work environment full of people like them, college-educated white men,
They pay more because there is more there to pay for, but the more there to pay for is the comfort of being around people similar to you, not competency for the job.
6
That people like to be around similar others has not stood up well in STEM where there are now millions of H1b,B1 and L1 visa holders.
Beware: there is a Bloomberg article today about Singapore trying to get vocational training increased... No doubt this will occur in India, China, etc to form the next wave of so-called skilled workers brought over to undercut wages and continue the destruction of America from the inside out.
Beware: there is a Bloomberg article today about Singapore trying to get vocational training increased... No doubt this will occur in India, China, etc to form the next wave of so-called skilled workers brought over to undercut wages and continue the destruction of America from the inside out.
Let's define our terms. Education is not the same as schooling. Instruction, training, and education are not the same. I was educated to the gills at what has often been the most expensive public school in England, where I won many prizes, and learned almost nothing. It was not until my late twenties that very slowly I began my education, as I started to read the great writers that I should have read at school and at university but had not.
Instruction and training are not replacements for education but necessary complements. For example, I was a hopeless golfer until I had the good fortune to receive instruction from a retired Basque professional payer, that miraculously, taught me how to strike that little white ball correctly with a seven-iron. I got the lessons while on holiday, and, admittedly, their effect wore off quite quickly. Nevertheless, it opened my eyes to the efficacy of really effective and expert instruction.
Most small children, like puppies, need to be trained. Later they need to be instructed. They do not need to be educated. That can and will come later when the child becomes the man or the woman.
Instruction and training are not replacements for education but necessary complements. For example, I was a hopeless golfer until I had the good fortune to receive instruction from a retired Basque professional payer, that miraculously, taught me how to strike that little white ball correctly with a seven-iron. I got the lessons while on holiday, and, admittedly, their effect wore off quite quickly. Nevertheless, it opened my eyes to the efficacy of really effective and expert instruction.
Most small children, like puppies, need to be trained. Later they need to be instructed. They do not need to be educated. That can and will come later when the child becomes the man or the woman.
4
As a retired high school ENGLISH teacher, I agree that many students would be better served by a competent practical education teaching real world skills. My district has very competitive commercial education/tech high school as well as two high schools offering a well-rated IB college track program. Students who do well in either usually are successful after graduation.
There are some aspects of education that should not be skipped in anyone's life, though, and the abilities to read and write with ease, skill, and enjoyment would be #1 as a life-long asset.
There are some aspects of education that should not be skipped in anyone's life, though, and the abilities to read and write with ease, skill, and enjoyment would be #1 as a life-long asset.
6
Much of our challenge in both vocational and college STEM education is capacity. Universities limit the size of medical and engineering schools because of the expense. One recent story I heard was about a bright young man denied acceptance into the undergraduate engineering program at the local public university. He is now earning a science doctorate paid for by his aerospace employer at top CA school.
We have to import doctors from around the world because our medical schools produce too few.
And the vocational programs for skilled trades are underfunded and start too late, long after potential candidates have failed to obtain necessary foundational skills in math and reading. And many skilled jobs like plumbing, welding and automotive repair are really tough jobs with even tougher working conditions.
The retirement of the Baby Boom is about to expose the real dimensions of the worker shortage. It would be a great time to address the shortcomings of our education capacity.
We have to import doctors from around the world because our medical schools produce too few.
And the vocational programs for skilled trades are underfunded and start too late, long after potential candidates have failed to obtain necessary foundational skills in math and reading. And many skilled jobs like plumbing, welding and automotive repair are really tough jobs with even tougher working conditions.
The retirement of the Baby Boom is about to expose the real dimensions of the worker shortage. It would be a great time to address the shortcomings of our education capacity.
3
I was born in 1953 to working class parents. We lived from paycheck to paycheck. But in those days, the late 60's and early 70's, kids in my situation could go to college and not come out with overwhelming debt. My brother and I both graduated from pharmacy school. I think Boomers like us grew up at exactly the right moment in America. A college degree made a huge difference. Today, it is a gamble and the R.O.I. may come, but after years of deprivation. My youngest son, 19, is in welding school, my oldest, 22, has an associates degree in power plant technology. The older one is going to complete his B. S. in management and hope that it dovetails with his technical skills. My youngest son has zero debt and a skill, and my oldest some debt, but not unmanageable. The digital age is cruel and college is no guarantee of anything but debt. Whole professions disappear with lightening speed. I'm not buying the arguments from the academics that college is as relevant today as it ever was.
16
This:
"How’s this for a proposal: real, rigorous academic- and vocational-track high school diplomas, and rigorous four-year degrees, with junior college for those who need a bit more vocational training, e.g., medical technicians and the like?" (Josh Hill of New London)
Imagine the benefits to a society where kids don't have to make it into college to learn to be thoughtful, active and informed citizens! And where the ones who do go to college don't need remedial courses to learn all the things they should have learned in high school!
"How’s this for a proposal: real, rigorous academic- and vocational-track high school diplomas, and rigorous four-year degrees, with junior college for those who need a bit more vocational training, e.g., medical technicians and the like?" (Josh Hill of New London)
Imagine the benefits to a society where kids don't have to make it into college to learn to be thoughtful, active and informed citizens! And where the ones who do go to college don't need remedial courses to learn all the things they should have learned in high school!
16
I am an American living in Switzerland. The Swiss have exactly the system you describe. A very strong, state-supported system of vocational education, but many crossover points so that kids aren't tracked too young. Here, you need a post-secondary certificate to work as a waiter. But the waiters really know how to do their jobs. If you have the smarts and the ambition to go to college, you can do it for almost no cost. I think, on average, Switzerland would be better off with a few more college graduates, but on the whole, the system works very well.
6
To the reader asking where evidence of signaling is, some does exist. The econometric evidence is mixed, and much is done in Europe which has (as other readers pointed out) a very different system.
I was interested in the signaling question in college because the case for it in the abstract is very interesting. Take the purported "sheepskin effect." If I drop out of college at the end of my sophomore year, would I make the midpoint salary between the mean high school graduate and the mean college graduate? Common sense tells us no, and the implication is that much of the value in education lies in the credential itself.
However common sense is a faulty thing and as I said the econometric evidence is very mixed. There are few good natural experiments to expose the true impact, but clever researchers identify changes to school policy and the like that are useful.
Off the top of my head I only remember the general study designs but the conclusion I came to was that the evidence for signaling is not at all common sense and not obviously true.
I was interested in the signaling question in college because the case for it in the abstract is very interesting. Take the purported "sheepskin effect." If I drop out of college at the end of my sophomore year, would I make the midpoint salary between the mean high school graduate and the mean college graduate? Common sense tells us no, and the implication is that much of the value in education lies in the credential itself.
However common sense is a faulty thing and as I said the econometric evidence is very mixed. There are few good natural experiments to expose the true impact, but clever researchers identify changes to school policy and the like that are useful.
Off the top of my head I only remember the general study designs but the conclusion I came to was that the evidence for signaling is not at all common sense and not obviously true.
3