My liberal Catholic high school educators encouraged questioning of all religion. Their idea: Faith is strengthened by searching for underlying truths. After all, where nothing can be proven, faith is all we have; Thus, a person who after searching for theological truth finally accepts that faith is a choice is likely to have greater tolerance than those who accept their beliefs blindly. As a result, I have been able to make friends with people of any beliefs, including Islam, and have been very understanding of most cultural differences.
Unfortunately, several dominant Fiqhs of Islam that are less open to freedom of choice and conscience. And Wahhabism, today’s dominant influencer of Sunni theology, has reached all across the world through deep pockets of its financiers spreading its belief in Sharia as immutable law.
Wahhabism and some other sects are unlikely to accept John Stuart Mill as we do. Western societies are surging headlong into a severe population collapse. When the 21st Century blends into the next, Europe’s importance will diminish. Will Sharia and intolerance of others be acceptable to most? What will take the place of OUR values for personal freedom and liberty when compliance and submission are the laws of the day?
Unfortunately, several dominant Fiqhs of Islam that are less open to freedom of choice and conscience. And Wahhabism, today’s dominant influencer of Sunni theology, has reached all across the world through deep pockets of its financiers spreading its belief in Sharia as immutable law.
Wahhabism and some other sects are unlikely to accept John Stuart Mill as we do. Western societies are surging headlong into a severe population collapse. When the 21st Century blends into the next, Europe’s importance will diminish. Will Sharia and intolerance of others be acceptable to most? What will take the place of OUR values for personal freedom and liberty when compliance and submission are the laws of the day?
4
Roger Cohen, I could not possibly write a comment that would begin to satisfy me, but I can thank you by taking your final words a bit further, and by so doing thank my friends in Rochester, NY who were mostly Jewish and my many more friends in Linköping, Sweden who are mostly muslim.
Your closing words:
"It’s easy and facile to see all Muslims as the enemy. Some Jews in France now do. This is a path to ruin. Just as in the Holy Land, Jew and Muslim must not imagine the other will go away."
The path to ruin on every scale is indeed to be unable to think in any other mode than to see all members of "the other" as the one.
The only way to avoid this is to know and to know well a few or a many of the group seen as the other. The opportunity to do this was given by the simple experience of landing in geographically giving places, Rochester and Brighton, NY; Linköping, Sweden.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Your closing words:
"It’s easy and facile to see all Muslims as the enemy. Some Jews in France now do. This is a path to ruin. Just as in the Holy Land, Jew and Muslim must not imagine the other will go away."
The path to ruin on every scale is indeed to be unable to think in any other mode than to see all members of "the other" as the one.
The only way to avoid this is to know and to know well a few or a many of the group seen as the other. The opportunity to do this was given by the simple experience of landing in geographically giving places, Rochester and Brighton, NY; Linköping, Sweden.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
3
There are significant Jewish Orthodox communities of various styles throughout France and parts of Europe that don't have any problem maintaining their observance without disrupting and interfering with everyone else in their countries.
Many Muslims in France have the same problem as the Al Sharptons of America; their only form of leadership is by casting blame on everyone else for their economic or social challenges.
Many Muslims in France have the same problem as the Al Sharptons of America; their only form of leadership is by casting blame on everyone else for their economic or social challenges.
11
What a sad story? European culture by and large failed its Jewish citizens miserably in the 20th century. France is now more aware or certainly should be of its own craven behavior. Now it appears Europe is going to fail the remnant in the 21st, existentially justifying the creation of the State of Israel. Ultimately, this is not a Jewish question or a Muslim question. I would like the believe the majority of French Muslims simply want a better life for themselves and their families and are not driven by some crazed Anti-Semtism. This is a crisis for the vast majority of the French people and whether or not they are prepared to stand up for their expressed values of tolerance and freedom and separation of religion and the state. If not, there will no longer be any Jews in France and the French will be left to deal with Muslim religious fanaticism on their own. C'est la vie.
2
The more I have reread this editorial & the numerous comments that bespeak prejudices of many shades, the more troubled I feel about the way the subject, as presented is goading the self-satisfied & protective of self & not of the "other" onward. How it is truly fanning the flames. The tone of commentary here is ample proof of this, to me.
And so, I must reiterate: Would you critique the God of the Jewish faith as represented in the Old Testament as a patriarchal, wrathful, and vengeful God? I would. & is that attitude of patriarchy & vengeance imitated by believers? I would say yes. There is so very much to be said for the evolution of humanity, if only, if only we become tolerant, if we only can, if we only could. But protecting 1 segment of humanity's beliefs while casting a blind eye to the deep core of the other will get us absolutely nowhere other than grief. Will lead only to further destruction of that frail thing we like to call civilization. We, humanity, are not civilized in these times, & our many religions are not helping! Is it time to reinvent the wheel? I wish. & repeated editorials by NYT, (much as I appreciate Roger Cohen's eloquence & insight) are not helping if they rev the mistrust and repeat the prevailing prejudices on both sides, ad infinitum.) The fact that religions are old is not a cause to mistrust them. But the fact that their core beliefs lead us to the temptation to despise our fellow humans, yes, definitely time to re-invent the wheel.
And so, I must reiterate: Would you critique the God of the Jewish faith as represented in the Old Testament as a patriarchal, wrathful, and vengeful God? I would. & is that attitude of patriarchy & vengeance imitated by believers? I would say yes. There is so very much to be said for the evolution of humanity, if only, if only we become tolerant, if we only can, if we only could. But protecting 1 segment of humanity's beliefs while casting a blind eye to the deep core of the other will get us absolutely nowhere other than grief. Will lead only to further destruction of that frail thing we like to call civilization. We, humanity, are not civilized in these times, & our many religions are not helping! Is it time to reinvent the wheel? I wish. & repeated editorials by NYT, (much as I appreciate Roger Cohen's eloquence & insight) are not helping if they rev the mistrust and repeat the prevailing prejudices on both sides, ad infinitum.) The fact that religions are old is not a cause to mistrust them. But the fact that their core beliefs lead us to the temptation to despise our fellow humans, yes, definitely time to re-invent the wheel.
3
There is an element that is missing in your argument that the Old Testament is vengeful etc. In the Judaic tradition there is something called the Talmud. It is an uninterrupted collection of serious questioning and interpretation of the Old Testament that resembles to something like the common law, based on precedents. It also contains remedies to some contradictions and shortcomings in the Old Testament. It is an evolving process. Only the fanatical Jews follow the book to the letter. Judaism is also a religion that underwent major reforms just like Catholicism did with the emergence of Protestantism a move that led to the split which created protestantism. Islam has never had a major reform, that's why Islam is at war with itself.
8
While I agree totally with what Margaret has pointed out about the need for respect for people of different religions and cultures and for understanding and dialogue - sentiments that I have taught to students and to my own family and have practised myself as a passionate Christian religious ecumenist, student of comparative religions and cultures, political, religious, economic and cultural historian and strategy consultant, I have recently been shocked and disorientated by discoveries I have made in Islamic bookshops in London's East End.
Respect and dialogue can only be achieved with a shared understanding of the facts. The Jesus Christ Muslims believe in is not the same Jesus of love compassion and peace Christians believe in or Jesus the prophet of the Jews. He is Isa who will descend to earth after the Mahdi (the Islamic Messiah) to 'break the cross and kill the pigs'. Islamic Jihad was made obligatory by Abdullah Azzam's fatwa of 1979 'Defence of the Muslim Lands: The First Obligation After Iman'.
The book The Choice by Ahmad Deedat - proved to be a shocking wake up call. The descriptions of Christianity in no way correspond to any form of Christian belief I have ever encountered. The evidence is factually flawed.
I do not have the space in this reply to detail the inaccuracies, but I would encourage all who are interested in the very well reasoned article by Roger Cohen to check the facts for themselves. There are excellent videos on UTube.
Respect and dialogue can only be achieved with a shared understanding of the facts. The Jesus Christ Muslims believe in is not the same Jesus of love compassion and peace Christians believe in or Jesus the prophet of the Jews. He is Isa who will descend to earth after the Mahdi (the Islamic Messiah) to 'break the cross and kill the pigs'. Islamic Jihad was made obligatory by Abdullah Azzam's fatwa of 1979 'Defence of the Muslim Lands: The First Obligation After Iman'.
The book The Choice by Ahmad Deedat - proved to be a shocking wake up call. The descriptions of Christianity in no way correspond to any form of Christian belief I have ever encountered. The evidence is factually flawed.
I do not have the space in this reply to detail the inaccuracies, but I would encourage all who are interested in the very well reasoned article by Roger Cohen to check the facts for themselves. There are excellent videos on UTube.
4
The French Muslim leader Boubakeur says: “You can’t have jokes here about the Shoah, but freedom to insult Islam is complete."
Surely the discussion should focus on interethnic violence and murder and not freedom of speech? There is daily, and growing, violence against Jews by Muslims in France (and in the U.K. and elsewhere in Europe).
French Jews are not committing acts of violence or intimidation against Muslims; it's a one-sided bigotry that the Muslims need to own up to and address, rather than squirm, deflect and straw-man their way out it by talking about "insulting the Prophet".
Give me a break about your precious Prophet, already. You're overlooking and all but condoning a Nazi-style campaign of violence against a religio-ethnic group you despise, then you hide behind faux outrage over some symbolic insult.
Surely the discussion should focus on interethnic violence and murder and not freedom of speech? There is daily, and growing, violence against Jews by Muslims in France (and in the U.K. and elsewhere in Europe).
French Jews are not committing acts of violence or intimidation against Muslims; it's a one-sided bigotry that the Muslims need to own up to and address, rather than squirm, deflect and straw-man their way out it by talking about "insulting the Prophet".
Give me a break about your precious Prophet, already. You're overlooking and all but condoning a Nazi-style campaign of violence against a religio-ethnic group you despise, then you hide behind faux outrage over some symbolic insult.
17
Something you forgot to mention, Roger: The fact that holocaust denial is illegal in France is an attempt by the French themselves to atone for their part their actions during WWII and not due to pressure on the part of Jews. Holocaust denial is not a crime in the U.S. where there are many more Jews.
But far more importantly, holocaust denial is nowhere punishable by death, as Muslims believe depictions of Mohammad should be. So much for misguided attempts at symmetry.
But far more importantly, holocaust denial is nowhere punishable by death, as Muslims believe depictions of Mohammad should be. So much for misguided attempts at symmetry.
17
The Holocaust is a tragic historic event, a well as a symbol of egregious evil. The Prophet Muhammad, while an historical character, is a powerful symbol to the followers of Islam. No one is denying the historicity of Muhammad, only questioning the interpretation of the teachings. Holocaust denial and Muhammad mockery are not equivalent. Free speech is about discussion of ideas, yes?
9
Anyone who has traveled in Muslim countries extensively has seen groups of Muslims praying on the street; Muslims praying on the street in Paris is not a sign of oppression. In fact. France has bent over backwards to accommodate Muslim prayer practices, especially during Ramadan.
10
"Muslims, often encountering daily prejudice, are susceptible to old libels about Jewish wealth, influence and power."
The passive language is telling and common when excusing certain groups for their bigotry. Why are they susceptible? Poverty and racism, right? And why are people susceptible to prejudices against Muslims? Oh, they are just bad people.
The passive language is telling and common when excusing certain groups for their bigotry. Why are they susceptible? Poverty and racism, right? And why are people susceptible to prejudices against Muslims? Oh, they are just bad people.
8
Seriously, Roger? How can you not see the false equivalency that is at the heart of your column? Muslims feel alienated by the French and therefore decide to intimidate, terrorize and murder Jews who make up less than 1% of France's population. Rather than vigorously call on Muslim moderates to denounce this atrocity in the strongest terms possible you argue that both sides (how are the Jews even on a side?) need to show tolerance and not give in to prejudice. It really is beyond belief.
14
There's no parallelism between Holocaust denial and disrespecting Muhammad. The former isn't a religious issue at all - it's a historical issue, an issue of facts.
11
"... many North African Muslims, particularly Algerians, arrived in a country they detested for the often unacknowledged crimes of France during the Algerian War ..."
-- Many of them were harkis, colonial troops who fought for France in the Algerian war, as they did in World War II and every war since the Crimean War. For their blood, and for their loyalty to the colonizer against their own countrymen, France has denied them pensions and has put them away in ghettos. Is it not France that has detested them, instead of the other way round?
-- Many of them were harkis, colonial troops who fought for France in the Algerian war, as they did in World War II and every war since the Crimean War. For their blood, and for their loyalty to the colonizer against their own countrymen, France has denied them pensions and has put them away in ghettos. Is it not France that has detested them, instead of the other way round?
5
Wow, Mr. Cohen, your piece abounds in false analogies. The Muslims who say that making fun of the Holocaust is prohibited while making fun of Islam is fine just don't get it. They don't understand satire, and I can tell you from many years of intimate knowledge of Middle Eastern cultures that this is the case. Satire and sarcasm are foreign to them, so they don't understand its foundation: you ridicule "up", not "down." You make fun of the powerful, e.g. a prophet who holds a billion people in sway, not millions of slaughtered innocents.
Making fun of the Holocaust is not in the same category as making fun of a religious figurehead. No Western satirist would make fun of the Holocaust, nor would they make fun of the massacre of Muslim civilians in the Bosnian War. That would be more analogous. When is the last time a Western comedian made fun of that?
This imagined hypocrisy where Muslims are fair game for jokes but Jews are not is just that: imagined. Let's remember that Charlie Hebdo also made fun of Marine Le Pen, Netanyahu, and the Pope.
Making fun of the Holocaust is not in the same category as making fun of a religious figurehead. No Western satirist would make fun of the Holocaust, nor would they make fun of the massacre of Muslim civilians in the Bosnian War. That would be more analogous. When is the last time a Western comedian made fun of that?
This imagined hypocrisy where Muslims are fair game for jokes but Jews are not is just that: imagined. Let's remember that Charlie Hebdo also made fun of Marine Le Pen, Netanyahu, and the Pope.
14
Strange op-ed. Cohen opens by saying that Jews and Muslims eye each other with unease. Then he goes on to list dozens of reasons, including murder and violent crime, for Jews to be uneasy about the Muslims who live around them, but not a single one for Muslims to be uneasy about their Jewish neighbors. It reads like a premise in search of an argument.
14
The " free speech" issue is typically american: sure, there are laws in France which prohibit the denial of the Holocaust and basically, all kind of hate speech. But it is deeply linked to the concept of " laïcité" ( unknown the US) which excludes religion from the public sphere. The french president doesn't swear on the Bible ( it would be odd and by the way, I have always find that habit disrespectful for the other religions in the United States). And you must know that it is now difficult and sometimes impossible for French teachers to speak about the holocaust in history classes in high school in front of mainly muslims students. Could you imagine what it would be they were are entitled to deny the Holocaust? You would get a bunch of revisionists who will speak up. Enough! And yes, Arabs kids or teenagers attack Jews in France. Jews kids do not attack Muslims: THAT is the big difference. And I can't believe that Boubakeur complain that it is forbidden to make jokes about the Shoah. Seriously? Does he think there could be anything funny there? And to my knowledge, it is untrue: deny the Holocaust is unlawful in France. Joking about it, if you are the stomach for it, is not. And how to compare a drawing of "A" prohet ( not "The" prophet as Muslims and French media constantly write) to a joke about the Shoah? I used to respect the recteur Boubakeur but clearly, something goes wrong now, even in the Muslim Moderate french establishment.
10
Cohen attempts to draw parallels between French Muslims' and Jews' problems that really don't exist.
French Jews' problem is that they now face daily, sometimes violent, anti-Semitism, usually (although not always) from Muslim fellow-citizens. French Muslims' problem appears to be that they are poor and marginalized in France. But this is not the fault of French Jews, who have not done anything to French Muslims. Yes, there is anti-Muslim hate crime, but there is no evidence that it is localized in the French Jewish community, whereas there is clear evidence that anti-Semitic hate crime is concentrated in the Muslim community.
Cohen also makes a weak argument in his comparison of laws banning Holocaust denial to the lack of laws against insulting Mohammed. Again, there is no parallel. Holocaust denial is linked to violent racism and the Nazi occupation of France, both of which France has reason to reject. In contrast, everyone in France is free to make fun of Mohammed (and Jesus, Moses, etc.) because there is no good reason to criminalize such speech. It may very well be that laws against Holocaust denial should be repealed, in France and elsewhere, but this is not a reason to criminalize mockery of religion.
In both cases, French Muslims have no grievance against French Jews qua Jews. The problem of anti-Semitism in the French Muslim community should not be laid at the feet of French Jews, as Cohen comes very close to doing.
French Jews' problem is that they now face daily, sometimes violent, anti-Semitism, usually (although not always) from Muslim fellow-citizens. French Muslims' problem appears to be that they are poor and marginalized in France. But this is not the fault of French Jews, who have not done anything to French Muslims. Yes, there is anti-Muslim hate crime, but there is no evidence that it is localized in the French Jewish community, whereas there is clear evidence that anti-Semitic hate crime is concentrated in the Muslim community.
Cohen also makes a weak argument in his comparison of laws banning Holocaust denial to the lack of laws against insulting Mohammed. Again, there is no parallel. Holocaust denial is linked to violent racism and the Nazi occupation of France, both of which France has reason to reject. In contrast, everyone in France is free to make fun of Mohammed (and Jesus, Moses, etc.) because there is no good reason to criminalize such speech. It may very well be that laws against Holocaust denial should be repealed, in France and elsewhere, but this is not a reason to criminalize mockery of religion.
In both cases, French Muslims have no grievance against French Jews qua Jews. The problem of anti-Semitism in the French Muslim community should not be laid at the feet of French Jews, as Cohen comes very close to doing.
12
Laïcité is at the very core of what it means to be French. People from a wide range of ethnicities have understood and accepted this. If Muslims insist on something different, France is not the country for them.
12
Confusing "Muslims", or "Jews", who are human beings, and may, or may not be attached this, or that way to a religion, whatever that religion is exactly, and a loud version of that religion, is a fundamental, abominable error.
However, criticizing a particular version, and in particular, elements of a religion, any religion, viewed as an ideology, is not just fair, but necessary. That is not just freedom of expression, and not just ability to use one's mind. This is the way humanity morally progresses. And actually progresses in a all ways.
Some have said that it is unfortunate that some celebrities did not comment on this article. My first comment was rejected. Was it because it contained some inconvenient truths?
It is true that manipulators in the West have been, under the pretext of being pro-native, enabled hard variants of Islam to become respectable. I was raised in Muslim countries, but these hard variant of Islam, which are becoming increasingly prominent, are the exact opposite of the Islam I have known as a child.
Those manipulators used the old Roman tactic of “divide and rule”. In exchange they got oil (the agreement of Roosevelt and the Founder of Saudi Arabia, in 1945, is typical.). The real question is why intellectuals, and the media, in the West, supported these efforts towards ever more respectability of the intolerable, theoretical violence in sacred texts, on “religious” grounds.
Christianity has to respect the Republic. Why not others?
However, criticizing a particular version, and in particular, elements of a religion, any religion, viewed as an ideology, is not just fair, but necessary. That is not just freedom of expression, and not just ability to use one's mind. This is the way humanity morally progresses. And actually progresses in a all ways.
Some have said that it is unfortunate that some celebrities did not comment on this article. My first comment was rejected. Was it because it contained some inconvenient truths?
It is true that manipulators in the West have been, under the pretext of being pro-native, enabled hard variants of Islam to become respectable. I was raised in Muslim countries, but these hard variant of Islam, which are becoming increasingly prominent, are the exact opposite of the Islam I have known as a child.
Those manipulators used the old Roman tactic of “divide and rule”. In exchange they got oil (the agreement of Roosevelt and the Founder of Saudi Arabia, in 1945, is typical.). The real question is why intellectuals, and the media, in the West, supported these efforts towards ever more respectability of the intolerable, theoretical violence in sacred texts, on “religious” grounds.
Christianity has to respect the Republic. Why not others?
4
France should adopt the immigration policies of Israel.
Oh no, not Steve Sailer!
2
"...many North African Muslims, particularly Algerians, arrived in a country they detested..." So why do they keep coming and - more important - why are they allowed to keep coming?
6
Thank you. Another great and thoughtful piece... very painful, though...
1
How many Jews or Christians have murdered thousands of Muslims in the name of Jesus or Moses lately? None!
How many Muslims have murdered hundreds of thousands of Christians and Jews and Shias/Sunnis in the name of Allah, thousands.
Like it or not, the Muslim community of today is a source of criminals who will gladly set off an atom bomb in the center of New York City, if they had one.
America is right in keeping the influx of Muslims into our country to a minimum. We have enough already!
How many Muslims have murdered hundreds of thousands of Christians and Jews and Shias/Sunnis in the name of Allah, thousands.
Like it or not, the Muslim community of today is a source of criminals who will gladly set off an atom bomb in the center of New York City, if they had one.
America is right in keeping the influx of Muslims into our country to a minimum. We have enough already!
6
The European Jews were forced into diaspora by the Romans, nearly 2,000 years ago. The Muslim community (and many non-Muslims too) don't want the Jews in Europe, so they go back to Israel. But the Muslims don't want them in Israel either. Guess what, you can't bake the cake and eat it too.
3
There’s a HUGE difference between mocking (however reprehensibly) a figure revered by members of a faith not one’s own, and denying a highly documented atrocity that afflicted primarily members of one religion--thus disparaging and impugning the credibility of ALL members of that latter religion. Those who mocked Mohammed were not attacking Islam as a religion nor were they maligning Muslims--at worst they were defying a rule of a religion not their own; no religion has a right to impose its rules on those outside its ranks. But those who are Holocaust deniers do so out of hate for and resentment of all Jews. Muslims were never subjected to oppression and extermination to any degree remotely resembling that inflicted upon Jews dating all the way back to before the First Temple. (Both Muslims and Jews were slaughtered during the Crusades--but Jews were slain first in Europe by the Crusaders as “practice"). Yes, Israel has shamefully appropriated land formerly owned and occupied by non-Jews--but not because of the latter’s religion.
One may debate as to whether the Holocaust justifies Israel being a theocracy in which Jews enjoy greater rights--but it is incontrovertible that the Holocaust existed, halved the entire world's Jewish population, and that Jews have been oppressed since long before the founding of Islam.
One may debate as to whether the Holocaust justifies Israel being a theocracy in which Jews enjoy greater rights--but it is incontrovertible that the Holocaust existed, halved the entire world's Jewish population, and that Jews have been oppressed since long before the founding of Islam.
7
WELL BALANCED ARTICLE -- Forgets Palestine
Visiting France yearly, where I have a house, and frequenting the muslim communities of the Parisian suburbs where I have family, the article well describes the climate of tension. Jews in particular seem particularly wary and on edge. I try to tell my Jewish friends, I have friends in both communities, that much Muslim criticism is directed at the plight of the Palestinians not at Jews per se. They seem to shut a deaf ear to this at least in front of what they must think a goyam, otherwise they have simply become deaf and blind to their own situation. I fear that unless the state of Israeli takes some steps toward peace with the Palestinians the situation of all Jews, fair or not, will deteriorate.
Visiting France yearly, where I have a house, and frequenting the muslim communities of the Parisian suburbs where I have family, the article well describes the climate of tension. Jews in particular seem particularly wary and on edge. I try to tell my Jewish friends, I have friends in both communities, that much Muslim criticism is directed at the plight of the Palestinians not at Jews per se. They seem to shut a deaf ear to this at least in front of what they must think a goyam, otherwise they have simply become deaf and blind to their own situation. I fear that unless the state of Israeli takes some steps toward peace with the Palestinians the situation of all Jews, fair or not, will deteriorate.
6
No Roger, the 5 million Muslims do not eye the Jews with unease because they know the Jews will not attack them. Just the opposite. It is their radicals who attack the Jews who they outnumber 10 to 1 and that is why many Jews are leaving France.
If French Muslims are complaining that insulting Prophet Muhammad is ok, why doesn’t Roger ask them why they insult French Jews and attack them and sometimes kill them because they are Jews? Why doesn’t Roger ask them for the respect for the Jewish religion that they demand for Islam?
French Muslims claim Jewish victimhood since the Holocaust? Why doesn’t Roger tell them that it is the opposite? The Jews have built an incredible State, where they try to live normal lives, even while under 67 years of Arab attacks. Jewish victimhood is a straw man, another Arab inversion. The reality of course, is not that all Muslims are against Jews, but the moderates are either afraid to speak out or they give lip service to the radical agenda.
If French Muslims are complaining that insulting Prophet Muhammad is ok, why doesn’t Roger ask them why they insult French Jews and attack them and sometimes kill them because they are Jews? Why doesn’t Roger ask them for the respect for the Jewish religion that they demand for Islam?
French Muslims claim Jewish victimhood since the Holocaust? Why doesn’t Roger tell them that it is the opposite? The Jews have built an incredible State, where they try to live normal lives, even while under 67 years of Arab attacks. Jewish victimhood is a straw man, another Arab inversion. The reality of course, is not that all Muslims are against Jews, but the moderates are either afraid to speak out or they give lip service to the radical agenda.
7
Easy enough.
What are we contrasting? Ideologies? They are not equivalent.
History vs a personality? apples and oranges. ........................... Look, Judaism is deeply imbedded in Western Civilization; Islam is not.
............... Islam is incompatible with Western Values. How is that difficult? What am I missing.?
What are we contrasting? Ideologies? They are not equivalent.
History vs a personality? apples and oranges. ........................... Look, Judaism is deeply imbedded in Western Civilization; Islam is not.
............... Islam is incompatible with Western Values. How is that difficult? What am I missing.?
7
Why continue to open your doors to immigrants who hostile to you and are intent on destroying your country, its culture and inhabitants?
9
The Muslims were not brought in shackles to France, they me of their own free will. If they don't like l liberal democracy, they are free to go back to where they came from, and the sooner the better.
11
However tragic the misunderstanding between both groups, their common fate, is that both Jews and Muslims are hated by the far right. Also, as far as the mutual interactions, not a single Muslim in France has intentionally been killed or targeted by Jews (as far as I know), whereas the reverse...alas. Really, both groups should combine, fighting, peacefully of course, France's (and elsewhere) extreme right. But, an other alas, in majority this is not about to happen so it seems.
17
I'm a Jew who drove over the Seine on my way to work this morning, as I do every workday, so I guess this applies to me. Like most here we know about violence in the name of Islam -- it's hard to miss -- but the French are well attuned to the memory and the horrors of the holocaust: when the French say "never again" they mean it. Conversely, I'm not so sure about America. Nobody is yelling "kill the Jews" on the streets of New York (yet) but there seems to be generally accepted and even encouraged anti-semitism -- barely disguised as "anti-Zionism" (whatever that means) -- in American University's. This politically correct bigotry, focused solely on Jews and grounded in ancient stereotypes and lies, is bound to eventually seep into society at large.
12
mfo, your concerns are correct. The universities are allowing the "politically correct" anti-semitism (seen in France) to occur on it's campuses. If someone wants to speak out against anti-semitism, they have to hire a body guard, the same as in France. The Universities are completely oblivious of the pandoras box they have permanently opened in the US. This is the first occurrence of widespread, organized Muslim intolerance encouraged in the US and it WILL lead to more.
The Middle East has exported another disaster in the making. The hatred of Jews and the hatred of Arabs have their roots in the Middle Eastern conflict.True the Holocaust came out of the Pogoms and Nazi Ideology but the conflicts in Europe today are led by Middle Eastern Bias .
There is no right or wrong really just a lack of civility and understanding . Do not expect love between the sides but coexistance is possible and a necessity if we are not to descend into a new Dark Age .
There is no right or wrong really just a lack of civility and understanding . Do not expect love between the sides but coexistance is possible and a necessity if we are not to descend into a new Dark Age .
4
Whether we like it or not, where Islam goes, trouble follows. When a terrorist strikes somewhere in the world or a person is killed because of their religion, it would usually be a winning bet that a Muslim perpetrated the atrocity. I know that this is not always the case, but, it is statistically accurate. What this suggests is that the West would be wise to clamp down on Muslim immigration. It is the Jews who are paying the price in France and Christians in many other parts of the world. The rest of us non believers will be next.
8
The French have a terrible track record when it comes to anti-Semitism. Although some of the French were active in the resistance, there were many instances of French collaboration with the Nazis when it came to deportation of Jews, and especially instances of turning over Jewish children, unasked.
It's encouraging to hear the French political leadership condemn anti-Semitism, but the fact that it had to be voiced indicates how prevalent it is.
It's encouraging to hear the French political leadership condemn anti-Semitism, but the fact that it had to be voiced indicates how prevalent it is.
4
Humans on the Seine. Humans in France. Humans in Europe. Humans on Earth.
"Am I my brother's keeper?" who is expected to hear the bell tolling for another human's misery tolling for me as well? Or not?
"Am I my brother's keeper?" who is expected to hear the bell tolling for another human's misery tolling for me as well? Or not?
1
This comment is not going to move the needle on solving Muslim-Jewish animosity nor any of the issues in the Middle East. There is no solution. Each side's beefs go back hundreds of years. They're ingrained into individuals through many generations…it's tribal. Israel keeps encroaching on Palestinian land with more and more settlements. Palestinians, who were disenfranchised of their land in 1947, angrily strike back. There are no solutions. It's a snake's nest of problems nobody can unravel. I can't do anything about it - it's way above my pay grade. Therefore, I'm checking out: If I see a headline related to any of these issues, I'm not reading the story, nor am I going to care about the outcome.
Europe and the untied States have a singular duty to protect their Jewish populations, because they once failed to and it cost millions of Jewish lives. Islam is at war with itself, but it is not a pacifistic religion, at least according to my sixties era European history professor: Judaism is and has also been an historical victim .
Those representing Islam in Europe make a valid point with respect to being able to criticize Judaism, but with the rise of anti-Semitism, the criticism has become irrational and nasty. Those representing Islam too often do not convince us of the innocence of their purpose, even as we watch ancient religious wars played out in the Middle East.
When we look for innocents to protect, despite some of the actions of the state of Israel with which I disapprove, Jews should be our first priority.
Those representing Islam in Europe make a valid point with respect to being able to criticize Judaism, but with the rise of anti-Semitism, the criticism has become irrational and nasty. Those representing Islam too often do not convince us of the innocence of their purpose, even as we watch ancient religious wars played out in the Middle East.
When we look for innocents to protect, despite some of the actions of the state of Israel with which I disapprove, Jews should be our first priority.
3
It is self-evident, I think, that France would be better off without its Muslims, and for this I blame Muslims, not the French. The same cannot be said about French Jews, who are both at peace with French culture and augment it. It is helpful to remember that Muslims tried to conquer Europe once before, and are certainly trying to do it again. (By conquer, I mean replace the Bible with the Koran as the central value-based text.) Jews, on the other hand, have always been persecuted in Europe, never conquerors, and pose absolutely no threat to mainstream Christianity. After all, we are speaking of Judeo-Christian culture. Islam has always been at war with the west, and still is.
6
Humans on the Seine, in France, in Europe and on Earth. Before it is too late.
1
If only Christopher Hitchens were alive to jump into this one. Denying the holocaust is a crime against reason and intelligence, being sarcastic about the Prophet is just childish. The real problem is the fact that assimilation in France has been a failure...French Jews just played the game better than Muslims but to the ur-French they are both the same. If I were a French Jew I would move to Germany where at least they aren't hypocritical about their guilt and bend over backwards to make nice. It was German-Jewish culture that produced many of the masterpieces of intellectual and cultural life of the 20th Century. That would be something worth rebuilding.
3
This piece is a primer on moral equivalency.
3
The political correctness of this article amazes me. If only Christopher Hitchens were alive - we would have a witty, eloquent response to this drivel.
Of course, Muslims are the enemy - how many non-Muslim atrocities has the world seen over the last several years? A small percentage. Has Mr. Cohen even read the Koran? These are primitive fanatics; they are not helpless people who have been discriminated against, and who are now turning against their oppressors.
Of course, Muslims are the enemy - how many non-Muslim atrocities has the world seen over the last several years? A small percentage. Has Mr. Cohen even read the Koran? These are primitive fanatics; they are not helpless people who have been discriminated against, and who are now turning against their oppressors.
5
I agree with this comment as far as it goes:
"The resolution of the crisis of Islam can only come through denunciation from within of the slaughterers — and recognition, rather than denial, of their Islamist inspiration."
But nothing happens in a vacuum. Certainly, much of the ant-Western thinking and to some extent the antisemitism is a consequence of continued Western military engagement in multiple Muslim dominated countries in which even France itself has been a participant (Libya being a prime example). In addition is the reckless treatment of the Palestinians in the West Bank, and more so in the Gaza Strip of which the West has been a passive observer. Indeed, the Islamic World has faced continued humiliation at the hands of Western actors.
"The resolution of the crisis of Islam can only come through denunciation from within of the slaughterers — and recognition, rather than denial, of their Islamist inspiration."
But nothing happens in a vacuum. Certainly, much of the ant-Western thinking and to some extent the antisemitism is a consequence of continued Western military engagement in multiple Muslim dominated countries in which even France itself has been a participant (Libya being a prime example). In addition is the reckless treatment of the Palestinians in the West Bank, and more so in the Gaza Strip of which the West has been a passive observer. Indeed, the Islamic World has faced continued humiliation at the hands of Western actors.
9
I agree that denying the Holocaust should not be a crime. Speech, even when false, should not be a crime. Europe and Canada should do away with their "hate speech" laws, and American should stop flirting with the idea. However, France is not executing people for denying the Holocaust. There is no moral equivalency between French laws against Holocaust denial and Islamist fanatics shooting Jews at a kosher deli or murdering the staff of a magazine that has "insulted" Muhammad. When a group of fanatics kills innocent people based solely on their religion or their ideas, the problem is with the fanatics doing the killing. Period. To discuss what anyone else did to provoke them is offensive. It is the moral equivalent of blaming a rape victim for being provocative.
5
How can you say that terrorism does not represent Islam when the same principles are the base of both. It says it right there "Survey shows strong anti-Semitism in the Muslim community, stronger among the more religious." Religion is the reason why immigration has changed from 50-80 years ago; immigrants today do not show tolerance demanding to change a whole country to accommodate their believes. The later we all realise this, the worse the situation is going to turn for those who live with respect for others
1
They will either learn to respect one another or they will come to blows. It just makes me mad, because I know that they are all brothers.
It is time Jews do not define themselves by the Holocaust alone. It happened, it was horrible, a blot on the human race and should never be forgotten so that we do not repeat this horrendous History. If people in different parts of the world kept defining themselves by tragedies in the past, (like the Bosnia war, the Hindu- Muslim riots post independence, the Rwandan genocide....) they will never have closure. Let's face it. The Holocaust happened because of the brutal Nazis not Muslims. The anti-semitism was perpetuated by the Anglo-Saxons. Muslims have a history of fighting with each other from the ages. They still have'nt gone beyond those old wars and these fanatics are adding fuel to the fire taking advantage of this history. Now I just hope Armenians don't define themselves by their genocide. Knowing History is to prevent ourselves from repeating it. This is across the board for all religions.
1
Just to be clear. Muslims have not/do not deny the Holocaust. That seems to be the province of the English and the French. Muslim countries were far to be busy fighting the colonial occupations or trying to build newly independent countries after the war than to concern themselves with what seemed to be a atrocity perpetrated by Europeans on other Europeans. What Muslims object as Cohen says is that criticizing its reality is illegal but criticizing Islam, the Prophet and Muslims seems to be the noble thing to do. What nobody seems to want to understand is for Muslims, Islam is not an abstract theory to be debated. It is an identity and often given the state that colonization have left their countries, it is the only identity they have. So the casual attacks by cartoons is felt as a direct attack on identity which is as much if not more than a physical attack. This off course in no way defends or excuses the violent reactions of Muslims, but it is important that people and journalists at least try to understand that.
3
If only the decency and fair mindedness of Roger Cohen were the standard instead of slaughter as a response to insults. And, yes, most Muslims in France, despite insults and offense, are not compensating with violence. But what in the world is to be done about the violent French Islamists?
1
Did it again. I send these off before they are ready. "instead of always "remembering" and never forgiving" was meant to tie up with remembering humanity at its best not its worst. Seems a much better focus.
Europe will have to address this problem very soon. It will be ugly but time is ticking sadly.
2
If you know US history enough, and European history, you realize that religious tolerance is the highest virtue of the enlightened man. This idea has to be brought to every corner of the earth, by law and by force if necessary. There should be no compromise on the issue. We will never get rid of religions altogether, since they are too ingrained in our subconsciousness. However, we can show them the ways to thrive without creating conflicts.
These ideas are at least 500 years old! And they stem from the great religious wars of opposing views on faith...
These ideas are at least 500 years old! And they stem from the great religious wars of opposing views on faith...
2
Muslim extremists are not victims. Innocent Jewish citizens are, I will feel sorry for moderate Muslims when they find their voice and their leaders and speak out against the atrocities. More loudly. More forcefully.
"We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."
Elie Wiesel
"We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."
Elie Wiesel
6
I am Jewish. When the Charlie incident occurred and I watched all of the "Je Suis Charlie" demonstrations, I googled images from the Hebdo magazine. My American sensibility was shocked at the caricatures which so reminded me of Nazi caricatures of Jews in the 1930's.
It happens that I am in French class currently. The students were all on the "Je Suis Charlie" bandwagon and the teacher was sympathetic. I asked the teacher to google the images and project them onto the wall. There was silence, and then a recognition of how revolting they were as regards the rights of others to their to religious beliefs. The class's "Je Suis Charlie" attitudes were immediately softened and a more nuanced discussion became possible.
The French love argument - not fighting - but argument and it seems that it is simply more okay to poke and prod the bedrock beliefs of others. While they have a strong Code of Politeness in formal interactions (God forbid that you should say "How do I get to the Opera") to an info attendant in the metro - You will be treated to an annoyed "No Good day, no 'excuse me for bothering you but..., no please" but they can be terribly rude and provocative by American standards when in argument, with no filters or editing of what they have to say in difficult situations.
I can't imagine how the Muslims see this as an issue of the Holocaust vs. The treatment of Muslims, but they are plainly an underclass in France and have every right to resent it.
It happens that I am in French class currently. The students were all on the "Je Suis Charlie" bandwagon and the teacher was sympathetic. I asked the teacher to google the images and project them onto the wall. There was silence, and then a recognition of how revolting they were as regards the rights of others to their to religious beliefs. The class's "Je Suis Charlie" attitudes were immediately softened and a more nuanced discussion became possible.
The French love argument - not fighting - but argument and it seems that it is simply more okay to poke and prod the bedrock beliefs of others. While they have a strong Code of Politeness in formal interactions (God forbid that you should say "How do I get to the Opera") to an info attendant in the metro - You will be treated to an annoyed "No Good day, no 'excuse me for bothering you but..., no please" but they can be terribly rude and provocative by American standards when in argument, with no filters or editing of what they have to say in difficult situations.
I can't imagine how the Muslims see this as an issue of the Holocaust vs. The treatment of Muslims, but they are plainly an underclass in France and have every right to resent it.
17
I have family and friends who emigrated from Portugal to France and Germany in the 1960s. They too suffered discrimination.
My uncle lived as a guest worker in Germany for 20 years and was always treated as an outsider. He worked in an auto factory for the majority of the time. In the 1960s jobs that the Germans didn’t want were given to guest workers like my uncle. However, when there was a down turn in the economy in the 1980s, he was harassed to leave his position. His employer offered him incentives to “retire” and return to Portugal. If memory serves me correctly my uncle lost the right to work in Germany by accepting one of the retirement deals.
I once visited my uncle in Germany. Since I don’t speak German and my uncle didn’t speak English, we spoke Portuguese to one another. I remember getting “looks” when we were out in public speaking Portuguese.
Northern Europeans tend to think of those of us from the south as inferior. When I’ve returned to Portugal to visit my family, I have run into tourists from other parts of Europe who are guests in the country but are arrogant and rude to the Portuguese.
Oh and by the way, my uncle was fair with blue eyes and had brownish hair that had been blonde when he was a child. Image if he had had dark skin and/or wore clothing associated with a certain ethnicity or religion?
If you want to read about the integration policies of 40 or so countries, see The Migrant Integration Policy Index at http://www.mipex.eu/
My uncle lived as a guest worker in Germany for 20 years and was always treated as an outsider. He worked in an auto factory for the majority of the time. In the 1960s jobs that the Germans didn’t want were given to guest workers like my uncle. However, when there was a down turn in the economy in the 1980s, he was harassed to leave his position. His employer offered him incentives to “retire” and return to Portugal. If memory serves me correctly my uncle lost the right to work in Germany by accepting one of the retirement deals.
I once visited my uncle in Germany. Since I don’t speak German and my uncle didn’t speak English, we spoke Portuguese to one another. I remember getting “looks” when we were out in public speaking Portuguese.
Northern Europeans tend to think of those of us from the south as inferior. When I’ve returned to Portugal to visit my family, I have run into tourists from other parts of Europe who are guests in the country but are arrogant and rude to the Portuguese.
Oh and by the way, my uncle was fair with blue eyes and had brownish hair that had been blonde when he was a child. Image if he had had dark skin and/or wore clothing associated with a certain ethnicity or religion?
If you want to read about the integration policies of 40 or so countries, see The Migrant Integration Policy Index at http://www.mipex.eu/
2
In addition, those who are discriminated against have no right to attack another ethnic group and need to learn to respect others. Throughout history there have been times that the three religions have coexisted and worked together. I recommend the book "The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain" by Maria Rosa Menocal. This book should be read by all not just those wanting to return us to the Islamic world of the 8th century.
And the Holocaust happened!
And the Holocaust happened!
The resolution of the crisis of Islam can only come through denunciation from within of the slaughterers
Which "slaughterers" might you be referring to Roger? I assume you mean the ones who kill people the same way one might kill - or slaughter - as a goat with a knife, no?
There's killing aplenty on both sides of this conflict so the shedding of blood is on everyone's hands, regardless of the manner or the weapon used to cause it to flow. One is no more or no less virtuous nor evil than the other, not matter how much our sensitive stomachs may wish to differ.
It's hard to imagine the denunciation you write about as necessary for any kind of reconciliation coming, if the phasing in which you are asking it from is stated so disrespectfully. Reconciliation only comes when both parties are will to face up and confess their own transgressions honestly and unequivocally and allow each other to held as accountable as the each side would the other. Without that condition coming to pass, can you blame many Muslims whose hearts are purely connected to their religion for only the purest of reasons, to not take offense when being branded anything less by those whose God also seems to allow killing when they feel it justified, just as long as it's done more visibly more pleasant.
Which "slaughterers" might you be referring to Roger? I assume you mean the ones who kill people the same way one might kill - or slaughter - as a goat with a knife, no?
There's killing aplenty on both sides of this conflict so the shedding of blood is on everyone's hands, regardless of the manner or the weapon used to cause it to flow. One is no more or no less virtuous nor evil than the other, not matter how much our sensitive stomachs may wish to differ.
It's hard to imagine the denunciation you write about as necessary for any kind of reconciliation coming, if the phasing in which you are asking it from is stated so disrespectfully. Reconciliation only comes when both parties are will to face up and confess their own transgressions honestly and unequivocally and allow each other to held as accountable as the each side would the other. Without that condition coming to pass, can you blame many Muslims whose hearts are purely connected to their religion for only the purest of reasons, to not take offense when being branded anything less by those whose God also seems to allow killing when they feel it justified, just as long as it's done more visibly more pleasant.
4
I really don't know what to think any more. As Mr Cohen points out "denying the Holocaust, a fact, and mocking Islam, a religion that is also a political movement, do not amount to the same thing"
But.
In these troubled times is it really wise to provoke (faithful muslims) and stoke (why feeding the Front National members more fodder to keep their unsavory flames burning?)
IMHO everyone is at fault here.
The government for (at best) turning a blind eye to the way the Muslim population has been treated for decades, and never taking any steps to educate the general population towards overcoming a deeply ingrained racism (surely Mr Cohen is aware that antisemitism still runs deep and strong beneath the surface now clouded by the Muslim backlash).
The non-Muslim French population for their hypocrisy in pretending that they are standing up for republican values -"laïcité" - (while, on the other hand, invoking catholic tradition to protest same-sex marriage for instance) when really what they are defending is their right to look down upon and exclude the "Other" from their midst.
Muslims who - though understandably, even justifiably, angry - have now assumed the stubborn stance of positing unreasonable demands on a society that has turned its back on them.
The fact that on top of everything else, Charlie Hebdo insists on publishing offensive material -admittedly equally to all - is just a gratuitous final straw.
I just don't see even a flicker of light in this tunnel.
But.
In these troubled times is it really wise to provoke (faithful muslims) and stoke (why feeding the Front National members more fodder to keep their unsavory flames burning?)
IMHO everyone is at fault here.
The government for (at best) turning a blind eye to the way the Muslim population has been treated for decades, and never taking any steps to educate the general population towards overcoming a deeply ingrained racism (surely Mr Cohen is aware that antisemitism still runs deep and strong beneath the surface now clouded by the Muslim backlash).
The non-Muslim French population for their hypocrisy in pretending that they are standing up for republican values -"laïcité" - (while, on the other hand, invoking catholic tradition to protest same-sex marriage for instance) when really what they are defending is their right to look down upon and exclude the "Other" from their midst.
Muslims who - though understandably, even justifiably, angry - have now assumed the stubborn stance of positing unreasonable demands on a society that has turned its back on them.
The fact that on top of everything else, Charlie Hebdo insists on publishing offensive material -admittedly equally to all - is just a gratuitous final straw.
I just don't see even a flicker of light in this tunnel.
2
I have read the OP-ED again after reading the comments. I do not see the imbalance in Mister Cohen's writings that others, particularly on the Jewish side see. There are few among us that do not have prejudices of one sort or another. Also, each person has his or her own history that determines their actions. My reading of history tells me that Europe is in the midst of events that could be as damaging to it as when Rome fell to the Northern Tribes. I fear there will be no cure for this Religious and Cultural clash. Much blood is yet to be shed.
It is the greates hubris for any human to consider that he or she is acting out God's plan on this Earth. The worst phrase in any language is "God is with us".
It is the greates hubris for any human to consider that he or she is acting out God's plan on this Earth. The worst phrase in any language is "God is with us".
1
"The killers of January were deranged terrorists, he said, criminals with no claim to represent Islam."
My interpretation of this statement is that it is also saying that religion, nor its teachings does not kill people as some people attempt to lead others to believe, but it is that, like of a false prophet's rhetoric entwining such killing as a part in the name of a religion to do so justly without any justifiable provocation...
However, lack of actionable opposition to such terroristic acts perhaps indicates a more profound view of distrust by those being victimized than by any verbal claim to condone such terrorism.
My interpretation of this statement is that it is also saying that religion, nor its teachings does not kill people as some people attempt to lead others to believe, but it is that, like of a false prophet's rhetoric entwining such killing as a part in the name of a religion to do so justly without any justifiable provocation...
However, lack of actionable opposition to such terroristic acts perhaps indicates a more profound view of distrust by those being victimized than by any verbal claim to condone such terrorism.
Why not give consideration to removing the Muslim community from France and generously subsidizing their return to Algeria or whatever country they came from?
Perhaps they could exempt former French army veterans and those with high skill levels. It would be expensive in the short term but likely recouped in the long term with a more homogenous community. Actually, this is an idea that should be considered by all members of the EU.
Perhaps they could exempt former French army veterans and those with high skill levels. It would be expensive in the short term but likely recouped in the long term with a more homogenous community. Actually, this is an idea that should be considered by all members of the EU.
I don't know what France can do. I'm sure there are a large percentage of the French population from Muslim backgrounds that are completely integrated into French society. Unfortunately, there are a large percentage of French Muslims who are not integrated into French society.
There is lots of blame to go around, so there is no use discussing it. The question is, can there be a solution to this potential quagmire in France, and other European countries as well.
There is lots of blame to go around, so there is no use discussing it. The question is, can there be a solution to this potential quagmire in France, and other European countries as well.
To all those drawing on the cliche' moral equivalence hatched in the rancid corridors of blind alleys, here's an offering, my guide to the perplexed: Radicals? Comparing and equating Jewish home builders, family members, doctors, lawyers, scientist, Indian chiefs, engineers, bakers, gardeners, farmers, teachers, bartenders, bus drivers, plumbers and school children etc;, in other words, day to day people, living otherwise peacefully and productively in a land whose current status is still a matter of legal dispute with calculated, cold blooded and remorseless murderers is beyond insult. For it to be an insult there would have to exist at least a grain of recognizable truth - but there is none. If the stakes weren't so high it could pass as farcical satire, looney tunes on the moon. The only truth here is the fact of the speakers blindness, or worse. If that's the best you can come up with in order to make sense out of this conflict then clearly you are not ready - or incapable of grasping its difficult but not so complex nature, they want us dead, or to "submit" - so there is little left to say, only to do, which is to support the IDF. The rest is conversation.
4
Why do Western countries invite people from all over the world expecting that all of them will volunatrily assimilate and give up their original values for the values of their new home? If one follows the legislative debate behind the immigration laws of European and North American countries it is clear that the prime motivator for 'inviting' people from other countries is economics (taxes, aging population, dwindling reproduction). It is certainly not altruism. Understandably, therefore, 90% of the 'invitees' who RSVP the invitation migrate for economic benefit, and not because they are sick and tired of their religious or cultural values/beliefs or because they are craving for a Western identity. It's just a gigantic quid pro quo. You need the tax money, I need to feed my family (which I am having a hard time doing in my homeland). It's a very one-dimensional agreement, kind of like an employer/employee agreement. So why the surprise when the relationship between host and guest does not extend to other spheres of life? Perhaps the West would like to consider the model of the Gulf arabs, where you come, you work, and you leave after the job is over (even if you have lived there for 40+ years!). This law might sound unfair, but at least no one can blame the host country for hypocricy.
17
Mr. Khan, and presumably millions of others, are wrong about the West's invitation. The invitation is not a quid pro quo where immigrants arrive, work, remain apart and then return to their original home nations. The invitation is to become one with the nation to which they have come; to integrate. If the migrants are unwilling to integrate, they should either stay home or have very different expectations. I recognize that the host nations often make integration difficult. It was difficult for the Irish, Italians and Jews in the US, but their second or third generations were comfortably Americans. The Poles, Spanish, Italians and Jews in France had similar experiences. Mr. Khan's comments reflect the uncomfortable reality that too many Muslims in Europe today have no interest in being French (or Italian or German, etc.). Their primary allegiance is to the Muslim Umma. They hold themselves apart, making money to the extent they can. And, while they are at it, many work toward bringing France into the House of Islam (which they see as a religious duty). The two communities are NOT on the same page, as Mr. Khan's post makes clear. Closing our eyes to this reality is not wise.
80% of Muslims in Europe are on welfare. Europeans take them in as refugees for humanitarian reasons.
Nobody invites them.
I deeply regret a time in France we were not talking about French Muslims, French Jews etc. We - I am a French Citizen- are a laic country and the religion should stay a private matter. Where the country failed is to integrate immigrants from former French colonies. A lot of those people fought with French army and lets remember that the war with Algeria was a dirty war. So now all these old failure is mixed up with religious belief. This is something which I did not hear of before 9/11. The French needs to go back to what was the core of French Republique: Liberte, fraternite, egalite ie freedon, fraternity and equality for each citizen.
18
AT the end of the article, Mr. Cohen makes a startling somparison: The Jews and Muslims in the holy land , just like the ones in France - must not imagine the other going away.
True enough about Israelis and Palestinians, but I do not see any reason for a Jew in France to stay if his life is getting more and more uncomfortable and even frightening.
The fact that police is stationed at Jewish schools and other institutions, makes people less comfortable, not less. It is a daily reminder of the danger they are in.
If I was a Jew in France, I would not look for the Muslims to disappear, I would go to the only place the Jews are in the majority: Israel.
True enough about Israelis and Palestinians, but I do not see any reason for a Jew in France to stay if his life is getting more and more uncomfortable and even frightening.
The fact that police is stationed at Jewish schools and other institutions, makes people less comfortable, not less. It is a daily reminder of the danger they are in.
If I was a Jew in France, I would not look for the Muslims to disappear, I would go to the only place the Jews are in the majority: Israel.
4
"Islam is in crisis, a religion at war with itself. The West is a spectator to this internal conflict and a victim of it. "
Muslims are a very fast growing population if not the fastest. So I'd say while there is an internal conflict going on - Islam is not in crisis, its the West that is in crisis. The Islamic population is projected to grow at 62% in Europe while the native population continues shrinking. Yes, it should go without saying that not all Muslims are terrorists. Of course the majority are not. But that said, the West is more than a passing victim, its as much a target as those Muslims who disagree with the radicals.
Muslims are a very fast growing population if not the fastest. So I'd say while there is an internal conflict going on - Islam is not in crisis, its the West that is in crisis. The Islamic population is projected to grow at 62% in Europe while the native population continues shrinking. Yes, it should go without saying that not all Muslims are terrorists. Of course the majority are not. But that said, the West is more than a passing victim, its as much a target as those Muslims who disagree with the radicals.
4
"The Holocaust happened. Denial of it is an outrage but, as a free-speech absolutist, I don’t see it as a crime, any more than blaspheming the Prophet Muhammad."
Bravo, Mr. Cohen.
Bravo, Mr. Cohen.
6
Your "Bravo" would be more appropriate if it referred to the lack of genocides which have occurred in Western Europe, because they took responsibility for the Holocaust, instead of denying it. Denial of atrocities is why they continue to occur again and again across the Middle East.
You might think differently if you were in Europe as opposed to America.
I hope the "demand" for 2,000 more Mosques is not a request that the French government build them. But why else would you be talking about it? I hope the French government doesn't cave on that but I suspect they will. Government officials, especially in Europe, have a tendency to bend over backward to avoid offending Muslims.
9
In the USA, Jews and Muslims are accepted, and get along with each other, with themselves and with others, better than in France, Middle East (including Israel) or North Africa.
The problem isn't really Jews, Muslims, or Christians. The problem is the cultures of France, Middle East (including Israel) and of North Africa.
The solution for the huddled masses yearning to breathe free, is to move to the USA.
The problem isn't really Jews, Muslims, or Christians. The problem is the cultures of France, Middle East (including Israel) and of North Africa.
The solution for the huddled masses yearning to breathe free, is to move to the USA.
3
Roger Cohen is a sensitive interperter of the current scene. This is rare.
Thank you Roger.
Thank you Roger.
7
Honestly comparing the behavior of Jews and Muslims in France is like comparing apples and hamsters!
Stop all the political correctness. Be honest.
There's no question, many Muslims have it bad in France but what does this have to do with Jews in France? That would be like holding the Norwegian- Americans solely responsible for what was done to African Americans in the U.S.
Muslim fanaticism is all about ignorance and fear.
Stop all the political correctness. Be honest.
There's no question, many Muslims have it bad in France but what does this have to do with Jews in France? That would be like holding the Norwegian- Americans solely responsible for what was done to African Americans in the U.S.
Muslim fanaticism is all about ignorance and fear.
22
Unfortunately most Christian Anglo Saxons, dont really pay much attention to Jewish or Muslim issues, as so far, it hasn't affected them , since adjustments to post 9-11, and come to accept attacks on our embassies. We no longer retaliate, so new lines have been drawn. With no specific US foregin policy ,Muslims feel free to push their causes, Israel warns of future problems. What Europeans choose to do about their former colonialism, remains to be seen. No signs yet such movements prior Nazi models are on the horizon threating both Jews and Muslims. Germany remains muted. No one else has any clout.
1
What does this mean? You need an editor...
Cultural events in France aren't a narrative about Muslims and Jews, as this piece suggests. France is a nation of 66 million people, so if France's Muslim population feels, or has been, excluded or discriminated against, it is surely not the due France's tiny Jewish minority. What French Muslims display is age-old hatred towards Jews, nurtured by current grievances. While this narcissistic rage may be focused at the West generally, its targets are Jews, and as such France's Jews have good reason for concern. But the story is not about France's Jews, or how France's Jews will react to current threats. Rather, the story is whether a far more moderate Islam can take root in Europe, and what European nations will do in the meantime.
17
Many churches are now empty of worshipers in France. Would it be possible to convert some of them into mosques!?
how about a place where the homeless can be sheltered
The argument many of you make is that anti-Semitism is mostly the result of Israel's actions in Palestine. I would guess that there would be approximately zero reduction in attacks should Palestine be given its own country and the whole west bank. That action would merely prove violence was an effective tool to gain Jewish movement. The next step would be a wholesale increase in violence against the Jews in an effort to obliterate Israel altogether.
It is odious, of course, to believe that a liberal French Jew is "asking for it" when someone who shares his faith does something bad in Israel. The problem is Muslims have been attacking and killing Jews for as long as the two religions have existed. Israel is just the most recent excuse.
It is odious, of course, to believe that a liberal French Jew is "asking for it" when someone who shares his faith does something bad in Israel. The problem is Muslims have been attacking and killing Jews for as long as the two religions have existed. Israel is just the most recent excuse.
11
What a stretch! No where in this article does Mr Cohen mention events in the Levant as the source of France's present problem. A classic bait and switch comment...rather than address the reasonable interpretation presented in this article, you make it about something else. Still, we have seen this technique many times before. Mr Netanyahu is an expert. Have you been learning from him?
1
I thought more Jews were killed by Christians than by Muslims - Germans who killed 6 million Jews were almost all Christians. Solving Palestine is a necessity that might reduce violence against Jews only marginally. What is really needed is for the West to not create needless wars grounded on total lies (that Iraq had WMD and Saddam would give it to Al-qaeda and Iraq was responsible for 9/11) which actually killed more than 200,000 Muslims. Then leave it to Shias and Sunnis to fight each other without interfering until they get some sense or get devastated and stop.
1
It is painful to see the cycle of blame and fingerpointing, and the justifications for violence. The idea that being humiliated is a just cause for violence is absurd on its face. People of all sorts suffer from the various unfairnesses and traumas of life; the solution begins with working with one's self and refrain from continuing the cycle of violence and blame. That is the only path to dignity. If one becomes angry because someone prints a joke, a good place to begin is to ask oneself, what is my anger telling me about who I am? Is this who I want to be? Am I angry because part of me believes my religion is something to be mocked? Or put another way, many times, when something another person says about us makes us angry, it may be that we believe this statement....we need a political movement that teaches emotional wisdom and maturity, that teaches the ultimate courage is in, at last, facing oneself.
5
Assimilation is a precarious balance. However, if you don't assimilate at all, there is often conflict, and it's hard to succeed in business, science, academia, government and other fields. It depends. It seems like in contemporary France, some high-profile Jewish citizens (or those with some Jewish ancestry, let's be frank about their actual level of religious identity or practice) are quite assimilated. The Jewish community spokespeople tend to be much more religious than well-known French Jews in government, finance, academia or media. People often think that if they assimilate, then the "elite" will embrace them and overlook their background. It doesn't always work that way.
3
To Larry Eisenberg and others who think Muslims are too silent:
(1) Please check out Rabbi Marc Schneier's piece in the Times of Israel, "Muslims DO speak out, we’re just not listening:"
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/author/marc-schneier/
(2) As for death threats, I hope you have noticed that "Death to Arabs" is scribbled on walls all around Israel.
The more any one of us (Christian, Muslim, or Jew) focuses on people as members of ethnic/religious groups rather than as human beings, the more we will enable and encourage situations like the one Cohen describes. As we now see, the US model of religious freedom along with separation from the state has been more successful than the somewhat nationalistic French enforcement of secularism through limitation of religious expression.
(1) Please check out Rabbi Marc Schneier's piece in the Times of Israel, "Muslims DO speak out, we’re just not listening:"
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/author/marc-schneier/
(2) As for death threats, I hope you have noticed that "Death to Arabs" is scribbled on walls all around Israel.
The more any one of us (Christian, Muslim, or Jew) focuses on people as members of ethnic/religious groups rather than as human beings, the more we will enable and encourage situations like the one Cohen describes. As we now see, the US model of religious freedom along with separation from the state has been more successful than the somewhat nationalistic French enforcement of secularism through limitation of religious expression.
7
Mr. Cohen writes another biased case against the French Muslims and how the French Jews live in constant fear. As I Jew I disagree with his premise: when has he ever mentioned the treatment of Palestinians by Israel? As an anti Zionist myself, I have yet to be seen running amok, screaming in the streets: I use words to express my thoughts.
Mr. Cohen bases his argument around France, but he forgets to mention that all colonialist countries have encountered similar problems. For an intelligent man, he ignores the way the colonial powers treated the indigenous populations, raped their lands of mineral resources, enslaved their people and then expect them not to fight for freedom.
The Algerian war was bloody yet Jews and Arabs lived in harmony; the brutality meted out by the French was appalling. The British experienced a war of liberation in Kenya, the Belgians in the Congo.
Islamophobia is on the rise but how many mentions are there about burnt out Mosques and desecrated graves, women having their scarfs pulled from their heads, women and children being being thrown of buses? Anti semitism is increasing but is it anti semitism or anti Zionism?
There will always be some bad apples in every crop and to demonise an entire religion is grossly unfair.
Mr. Cohen bases his argument around France, but he forgets to mention that all colonialist countries have encountered similar problems. For an intelligent man, he ignores the way the colonial powers treated the indigenous populations, raped their lands of mineral resources, enslaved their people and then expect them not to fight for freedom.
The Algerian war was bloody yet Jews and Arabs lived in harmony; the brutality meted out by the French was appalling. The British experienced a war of liberation in Kenya, the Belgians in the Congo.
Islamophobia is on the rise but how many mentions are there about burnt out Mosques and desecrated graves, women having their scarfs pulled from their heads, women and children being being thrown of buses? Anti semitism is increasing but is it anti semitism or anti Zionism?
There will always be some bad apples in every crop and to demonise an entire religion is grossly unfair.
7
Cohen highlights an argument used by some Muslims to justify physical attack against Parisian Jews. It is this. It is against the law to deny the holocaust. It is not against the law to disparage the Prophet. ( To be fair, it is not against the law to disparage Buddha, Confucius, Moses, or Jesus either, but why use the correct analogy!)
The argument comes to this: If two groups of people each maintain an historical belief or event vital to their present existence, and the government, the two groups live under, recognizes one belief or event but not the other, one group is then justified in attacking another. The logic is ludicrous. (Perhaps the Government of France should be a target, that would appear the rational choice!)
One can only conclude the obvious. The above argument as reason or justification has nothing whatever to do with the attacks. The better heads on both sides need to meet and work exceedingly hard so that they can both live in Paris, together.
The argument comes to this: If two groups of people each maintain an historical belief or event vital to their present existence, and the government, the two groups live under, recognizes one belief or event but not the other, one group is then justified in attacking another. The logic is ludicrous. (Perhaps the Government of France should be a target, that would appear the rational choice!)
One can only conclude the obvious. The above argument as reason or justification has nothing whatever to do with the attacks. The better heads on both sides need to meet and work exceedingly hard so that they can both live in Paris, together.
6
"The double-standards argument of French Muslims is understandable — even if denying the Holocaust, a fact, and mocking Islam, a religion that is also a political movement, do not amount to the same thing".
You've just pilloried your own argument, this is a non-sens.
You've just pilloried your own argument, this is a non-sens.
5
I am sure many people like to live in France and so don't want to leave. I have good friends who lived in the US and retired to France , Jewish and no intention of fleeing. So I would leave it to the people of France to sort it out. However, France is not without its own shameful anti- Semitic past, and I am sure is probably able to stir up anti-Muslim behavior. Allowing people to come to your country will often lead to clashes. . The US, a country of immigrants is currently having one of its political parties become more anti immigrant in order to play to a no-nothing base in the central and southern part of the country. Unfortunately we Jews are always in the middle of these problems. Under these circumstances, we as Jews, have to keep a wary eye out wherever we live, never think that by ingratiating ourselves into the establishment that we are immune to being thrown under the bus. Hitler and the Nazis weren't outliers, They were a culmination of a millennium of European anti-Semitism. Early seedlings are not yet garlic and onions, but I see the long term projections of a possible banner crop sometime in the current millennium. I fear that Israel could be fated to relive the Masada, even with refugees from the west. We can't see that now, and it is certainly safe with its own free politics, ruthless and capable war machine and American support. But if the world sinks back into a dark age in the future, the first people to be blamed will be the Jews. Sholom Aleichem
6
As many have commented, I don't think that Holocaust denial and satirizing Islam are one and the same, nor do I see French Muslims persecuted and physically harmed to the extent that French Jews have been.
At the same time, I'm hard-pressed to defend absolute freedom of speech when that speech incites violence as the Charlie Hebdo cartoons did. I do think that a carve out might be considered-- as difficult as it would be to define and implement. I recognize that this is not a popular position, but my concerns for public safety trump my concerns for absolute press and speech freedoms.
As well, I think that it is important for moderate Jewish and Muslim leaders in France and globally to identify and publicize shared issues and agendas, including the need for treating those of all faiths with respect and dignity.
If there are successful interfaith initiatives that include Jews and Muslims in Europe and elsewhere, these should be publicized as well.
At the same time, I'm hard-pressed to defend absolute freedom of speech when that speech incites violence as the Charlie Hebdo cartoons did. I do think that a carve out might be considered-- as difficult as it would be to define and implement. I recognize that this is not a popular position, but my concerns for public safety trump my concerns for absolute press and speech freedoms.
As well, I think that it is important for moderate Jewish and Muslim leaders in France and globally to identify and publicize shared issues and agendas, including the need for treating those of all faiths with respect and dignity.
If there are successful interfaith initiatives that include Jews and Muslims in Europe and elsewhere, these should be publicized as well.
25
People who ridicule Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. aren't murdered for what believers consider to be their insensitivity. There cannot be separate rules for the ridicule of Islam in a multi-religious, multi-ethnic state.
6
I agree with you about the difference between satirizing a religion not being the same as Holocaust denial. I would like to add that the idea of absolute freedom of speech is an illusion! Basically no Western European style democracy has absolute freedom of speech or freedom of expression. There are always limits. You can't incite people to violence, you can't express certain racist or sexist views, you can't speak freely about state secrets if you are a government employee. In the public debate we tend to talk about "freedom of speech" and "freedom of expression" as if they were absolute, but when you look closely they are not, nor should they be. In my point of view, it's a far less evil to further restrict and limit hate speech than to - like the US did - lock up 1000's of innocent Muslim citizens on the weakest of suspicions. Or to have NSA listen and read all our communications - or to create a Gitmo! All democratic states must protect themselves against forces that may destroy them or hurt their citizens. We have to adjust the rules to the times we live in. Today we have the Internet, with all the good it does for us, it also gives those who are out to do harm to others an outlet and a way to further their agenda. We must not be naive about that.
Netliner is correct to say that Holocaust denial and satirizing Islam are not the same. Hebdo magazine satirized all religions. The Holocaust is a different matter as it degraded all of Europe and resulted in the deaths of not just 6 million Jews but another 20 million people. To deny the Holocaust is to deny European history. To deny the Holocaust is to rationalize the next destruction of a people you dislike, whether Jew or someone who does not endorse Islam, or who does not want to serve as a dhimmi.
Eventually, if you do not accept Islam, it can (and will) be interpreted that you do not believe in the veracity of Muhammad as the Last Prophet of Allah; and if you doubt the truthfulness of that, isn't it the greatest insult of all?
This is absolutely ground that we cannot yield.
This is absolutely ground that we cannot yield.
43
Most people in the West don't believe in allah or his prophet. So what? If you don't like it, you should not live in a Western country.
3
Your comment, Arun, highlights the problem which Jews, Christians, Buddhists and others have with the way some Muslims understand Islam.
You ask others to “accept Islam” and, apparently, you equate acceptance with adopting your belief that Muhammad was the last prophet of Allah. Then, you go beyond even that demand and say that those not sharing your belief deliver “the greatest insult of all.”
Every religion has a set of beliefs which is, more or less, unique to that religion. The adherents of every religion ask and expect us to tolerate their beliefs, and they sometimes use the word, “accept,” as a synonym for tolerate or respect. No major religion in the world, Arun, except your particular brand of Islam, demands that people of other faiths become co-believers. There is no major religion whose members see an insult if an outsider fails to share their beliefs.
Hopefully, Arun, you do understand how the religious demands you place on others is dramatically different from what every other religion expects. There are countless Muslims who lead deeply religious lives, but who would never dream to insist that outsiders share all of their beliefs. Please take the time, Arun, to speak with some of those Muslims from outside your group.
You ask others to “accept Islam” and, apparently, you equate acceptance with adopting your belief that Muhammad was the last prophet of Allah. Then, you go beyond even that demand and say that those not sharing your belief deliver “the greatest insult of all.”
Every religion has a set of beliefs which is, more or less, unique to that religion. The adherents of every religion ask and expect us to tolerate their beliefs, and they sometimes use the word, “accept,” as a synonym for tolerate or respect. No major religion in the world, Arun, except your particular brand of Islam, demands that people of other faiths become co-believers. There is no major religion whose members see an insult if an outsider fails to share their beliefs.
Hopefully, Arun, you do understand how the religious demands you place on others is dramatically different from what every other religion expects. There are countless Muslims who lead deeply religious lives, but who would never dream to insist that outsiders share all of their beliefs. Please take the time, Arun, to speak with some of those Muslims from outside your group.
1
So are you saying, Arun, that the very fact that someone one is not a Muslim is itself an insult to Muslims? Anyone who is not a Muslim will not believe in the veracity of Muhammad as the Last Prophet of Allah. If they did believe it would follow that they would be Muslims. It sounds as though you feel violence against people of other faiths and agnostics / atheists is justified for no other reason than they don't believe in the same things you do. This kind of profound intolerance and bigoted thinking is completely incompatible with life anywhere outside of a Muslim theocracy. It's the thinking that drives Islamists, is it not?
1
The West is a party to the conflict between Muslims, not a "spectator" of it, and if blowback from the West's imperial strategy of divide and rule occasionally results in small scale terrorist attacks against it then the West must share responsibility for these attacks as byproducts of it's own consciously planned actions over the last 70 years to dominate the Muslim world in order to control the price of oil. Likewise, if ordinary Muslims are expected to officially distance themselves from the depredations committed by Islamist terrorists in the name of all Muslims everywhere then ordinary Jews in the West should also be expected to officially distance themselves from the depredations committed by Israeli Zionists in the name of all Jews everywhere against the native inhabitants of occupied Palestine. And finally, the refusal of ethnically European French to cease their systematic discrimination against North African Muslim immigrants, even down to the third generation, places a large burden of responsibility on French society for the increasing resentment and hostility of French Muslims towards all things Western. The mantle of 'victimhood' simply doesn't fit those with the power to invade, oppress and discriminate. They should be the first to step forward and shoulder their share of the burden of responsibility for the social and political chaos and dysfunction that result from their actions.
14
One of the few intelligent posts i've seen here and only three recommend it?
Jews DO distance themselves from the actions of the Israeli government. About half of them. What do you expect them to do, take up arms against Israel?
If life in France is so intolerable to Muslims why did 5 million flock there? As other responders have noted, perhaps the wonderful political systems and prosperity they left in their home countries are more appealing than France. The difference is, in their home countries their current behavior would have landed them in prison or worse, in France they get to whine to their hearts' content while at least being able to tap into the benefits of French life. The attempt to create moral equivalence between Holocaust denial and aledged
72
Exactement!
It did not begin of course in Paris at the kosher supermarket.
2006, Ilan Halimi kidnapped by the Gang of Barbarians led by Youssouf Fofana. Halimi was tortured and murdered.
2012, the killings at the Ozar Hatorah school in Toulouse of teacher and children by Mohammed Merah, who had also murdered soldiers at Montauban and Toulouse, some of them even Muslims.
Call the murderers deranged terrorists or whatever, but in France the plain fact is that Muslims murder Jews and not the other way around. 5 million Muslims and 500,000 Jews (according to Mr. Cohen other estimates are 6 million Muslims and up to 650,000 Jews). Even with the fact that this is a very large Jewish Diaspora, the Jews don't stand a chance.
2006, Ilan Halimi kidnapped by the Gang of Barbarians led by Youssouf Fofana. Halimi was tortured and murdered.
2012, the killings at the Ozar Hatorah school in Toulouse of teacher and children by Mohammed Merah, who had also murdered soldiers at Montauban and Toulouse, some of them even Muslims.
Call the murderers deranged terrorists or whatever, but in France the plain fact is that Muslims murder Jews and not the other way around. 5 million Muslims and 500,000 Jews (according to Mr. Cohen other estimates are 6 million Muslims and up to 650,000 Jews). Even with the fact that this is a very large Jewish Diaspora, the Jews don't stand a chance.
64
Given that every major Jewish organization in the diaspora goes out of their way to convey that "We Are One" with Israel, is it any wonder that some of those who hate Israeli policies dislike Jews.
This may be unfair but it is also natural.
It is Jews, not Muslims, who have conflated Judaism and Jews with the policies of Israel (specifically, of course, the occupation of the West Bank, the blockade of Gaza and such horrors as the Gaza war).
It is time for us to remind the world that Israel is a state but Judaism is a religion and Jews are simply the adherents of that faith or part of what is also an ethnic group.
It is terrible and incredibly ironic that Israel is endangering diaspora Jews through its actions. But that is what is happening. It is wrong, unfair and even atrocious BUT so long as diaspora Jews march in lockstep behind the Israeli government, this problem will not go away.
In the meantime, I wish my own synagogue would stop flying the Israeli flag. Imagine if the mosque across the street flew the flag of Palestine! Goes to show you.
This may be unfair but it is also natural.
It is Jews, not Muslims, who have conflated Judaism and Jews with the policies of Israel (specifically, of course, the occupation of the West Bank, the blockade of Gaza and such horrors as the Gaza war).
It is time for us to remind the world that Israel is a state but Judaism is a religion and Jews are simply the adherents of that faith or part of what is also an ethnic group.
It is terrible and incredibly ironic that Israel is endangering diaspora Jews through its actions. But that is what is happening. It is wrong, unfair and even atrocious BUT so long as diaspora Jews march in lockstep behind the Israeli government, this problem will not go away.
In the meantime, I wish my own synagogue would stop flying the Israeli flag. Imagine if the mosque across the street flew the flag of Palestine! Goes to show you.
53
This comment seeks to equate Judaism with Israeli government policy. Judaism is a religion. The policy of the Israeli government is just that: government policy. It is wrong and potentially harmful to conflate the two.
Several questions for the writer of this comment:
1)Is the writer aware that there are a range of opinions by Israelis, including Jewish Israelis, on the policies of the Israeli government?
2)Is the writer aware that Jews throughout the world, in France and elsewhere, differ on the merits of Israeli policy?
3)Would the writer hold Muslims in France or other western nations responsible for the policies of the PLA, Hamas, Hezbollah or other Palestnian liberation groups?
4)If the answer to 3 is "No," why does the writer hold Jews outside of Israel to a different standard?
Several questions for the writer of this comment:
1)Is the writer aware that there are a range of opinions by Israelis, including Jewish Israelis, on the policies of the Israeli government?
2)Is the writer aware that Jews throughout the world, in France and elsewhere, differ on the merits of Israeli policy?
3)Would the writer hold Muslims in France or other western nations responsible for the policies of the PLA, Hamas, Hezbollah or other Palestnian liberation groups?
4)If the answer to 3 is "No," why does the writer hold Jews outside of Israel to a different standard?
2
Hey Jeff: I suggest you proudly stand in front of your fellow congregants and tell them all this, especially the part about removing the Israeli flag. Better still, be a man and take it down yourself as a political statement. Your hand-wringing self-loathing is cringeworthy. That our people survived thousand of years of genocide, inquisitions, shoahs, pogroms and slaughters to produce someone with your opinions is tragically remarkable.
If the Mosque across the street flew the Palestinian flag, the jews of your synagogue, my synagogue, every synagogue would do absolutely nothing. No rioting, no beheadings, nothing. Though you might want to go over and convert, seems you'll be far more comfortable there.
As a diaspora Jew, I AM one with my Jewish brothers and sisters in Israel, even if I disagree with them, sometimes more, sometimes less. That their political state is imperfect makes it like very other in the world, including ours, except no others live under constant slander, libel, attack, and threat of annihilation like they do, yet they still maintain a vibrant democracy that gives its Arab citizens more freedom and opportunity than any Arab state in the world.
If the Mosque across the street flew the Palestinian flag, the jews of your synagogue, my synagogue, every synagogue would do absolutely nothing. No rioting, no beheadings, nothing. Though you might want to go over and convert, seems you'll be far more comfortable there.
As a diaspora Jew, I AM one with my Jewish brothers and sisters in Israel, even if I disagree with them, sometimes more, sometimes less. That their political state is imperfect makes it like very other in the world, including ours, except no others live under constant slander, libel, attack, and threat of annihilation like they do, yet they still maintain a vibrant democracy that gives its Arab citizens more freedom and opportunity than any Arab state in the world.
2
It's OK for Muslims IN FRANCE to attack Jews because of the Palestinians but not OK for Jews to defend Israel? Liberal double-standard gobbly gook!
1
It is nothing but a logical fallacy to justify a lack of minarets and mosques or disrespecting the Prophet with attacks on Jews. The Jews do not make the laws of France. Jews are NOT perpetrating crimes upon Muslims. None have been attacked. When things were loose in France Muslims riot, and revolt. When they feel they are oppressed by the government they revolt. The response is always the same regardless -- always believing it is the fault of Jews, when their ire, if they feel ill-treated should be communicated to the French Government. Jews have always been the scapegoats for every culture that has felt dismayed or allegedly ignored by society. The Muslim community of France is no exception. If they have issues with the fact that disavowing the Holocaust is a crime they should protest the French government, not target innocent Jews. This is illogical, like so many of their responses seem to be. That's the problem. The intuitive response of Muslims is violence. As we've repeatedly seen it's the one thing that can be counted on in Europe and the Middle East. And that is irrefutable.
106
multi-culturalism does not work. This article makes that clear. The question is, will we stop it before it destroys are western societies?
43
No - it is not being stopped. It is being continued. When the host cultures are no more than artifacts, they will wonder what happened.
Multiculturalism does work, it's goal it to destroy Western society. It picked up when Lenninism faded out, and was promoted by the same leadership with a wider band of the useful ones following.
Multiculturalism doesn't work because it gives the host county (like France or Holland) the option of telling an Arab or African woman who is being imprisoned &/or tortured by he husband or father "That's OK, it's your culture", instead of enforcing the woman's rights as an individual. That's one of the things Ayan Hirsi Ali was so angry about. And Europe still doesn't get it.
Oh dear, from the title of this article, Muslims & Jews on the Seine,
I was anticipating Sunday in the Park with Georges on La Grande Jatte.
But, I guess, not yet.
Aren't some of those who comment, comparing apples & oranges here ?
Alas, belief systems bear no relation to facts.
"Truth" is in the eye of the beholder
I was anticipating Sunday in the Park with Georges on La Grande Jatte.
But, I guess, not yet.
Aren't some of those who comment, comparing apples & oranges here ?
Alas, belief systems bear no relation to facts.
"Truth" is in the eye of the beholder
11
It is so offensive to try and compare the behavior of the Jews and Moslems in France, and elsewhere. For decades Moslems in France attacked Jewish children on their way to, and in schools. For decades it was ignored. Hence, the large number of Jewish day schools. Moslem so called leaders preach hate of the Jews. They aslo hate the Western culture. But even without mentioning Mohamed Synagogues, rabbis, schools, and even a kosher grocery store are attacked. Jews are knifed. How dare you suggest a comparison of experiences. As for Gaza, when journalists provide free space to Moslem leaders, do the journalists point out that it is best not to fire rockets into Israel? Once again, the press plays along with a censoring culture that curses israel for surviving. Maybe thefree hospital care being given free to Palestinians, and to Syrians who can get across the border should be mentioned while condemning Israel for defending itself.
109
You are absolutely correct in facts, French Jews do not go about insulting the prophet. As usual Mr. Cohen misses again the main points by comparing abhorrent Mosem atrocities, murders, defiling synagogues, and cemeteries, cursing and beating Jews, with the absence of French laws on insults to the Muslim religion. Not a single paper in Israel or book defiles the Moslem religion, no Jew in France did or does so. The mockery of Moslem religion and the Moslem prophet in Europe is and was done by others, none of them Jewish. Jews everywhere, especially in Israel, and also in France respect all other religions. These are points Mr. Cohen regretfully misses to write. Mr. Rogers: Comparing the outlawed denial of the holocaust in France, with the absence of a French lawregarding publications of stupid senseless caricatures of the Muslim religion in some European papers, which Muslim leaders lament, as Mr. Rogers writes, is an insult to to the intelligence of NYT readers.
France, i.e. the French tax payer, is expected to pay for 2,000 mosques!? Of course the National Front, as well as many centrist Frenchmen, are outraged by the sense of entitled expectation.
65
Pathological entitlement is the Black Plague of our age, a transcontinental epidemic and when it is catered to and fed it grows. The answer is to cut it off, weather the storm and let it die,
3
Don't the religious institutions just pay for them. Why would it be taxpayers?
2
saw National Front grafitti on the sidewalks of Paris yesterday. chilling. As a point of fact the French government maintains many Christian churches and synagogues at vast expense, as part of the nation's historic patrimony, which makes the Muslim argument less unreasonable than it sounds in this column.
It should also be said that, as a percentage of the French population, there are about a third as many Muslims in France as there are African Americans in the US, and that most of the Algerian Muslims were French sympathizers who no longer felt safe in Algeria. They are quite integrated and invested in France and have been for generations, as are the most other Muslims here who immigrated from from French colonies, like Morocco, where their grandparents became French speaking. They as as likely to be cooking boef bourbuignon as falafels in their restaurants.
That guy with the escort car could ride the subway metro without fear, were he not a public figure, and many public figures have security.
It should also be said that, as a percentage of the French population, there are about a third as many Muslims in France as there are African Americans in the US, and that most of the Algerian Muslims were French sympathizers who no longer felt safe in Algeria. They are quite integrated and invested in France and have been for generations, as are the most other Muslims here who immigrated from from French colonies, like Morocco, where their grandparents became French speaking. They as as likely to be cooking boef bourbuignon as falafels in their restaurants.
That guy with the escort car could ride the subway metro without fear, were he not a public figure, and many public figures have security.
The Holocaust is about real people suffering systematic genocide, extreme horrors, annihilation and unspeakable crimes, that should never be forgotten.
No! Talk about how somebody's religious figureheads do not, under any figment of reason or even imagination, or emotion, compare to the historical tragedy of the Holocaust. Imposing Islamic religious views, empty and insincere for true faith in Mohammed does not require censorship to prop him up, simply have no place in Modernity.
No! Talk about how somebody's religious figureheads do not, under any figment of reason or even imagination, or emotion, compare to the historical tragedy of the Holocaust. Imposing Islamic religious views, empty and insincere for true faith in Mohammed does not require censorship to prop him up, simply have no place in Modernity.
60
The insults to the Prophet Muhammad (may all peace and blessings be upon his name) are no excuse for violence, since the Prophet endured may insults without using violence during his lifetime. But to deny freedom of speech in France to Holocaust deniers wouldn't be permissible in America. Unfortunately, most systematic genocides do not receive the same historical attention that the Nazi Holocaust does. Use of the word Holocaust to simply mean extermination of Jewish people does an injustice to people who were victims of crimes equal to the Nazi death camps. For example. is dying of bad food overwork and torture in a Soviet gulag less horrible than dying in a German concentration camp? But Stalin isn't hated throughout the world as much as Hitler, even though Stalin 's terror was greater, and he killed a greater number of people thorough the great terror and his policies of starvation in the Ukraine.
The hatred of Jews in Europe is based on race, a fact which some people don't want to acknowledge. Hitler basically didn't consider the Jews to be white people , and many people in Europe share that belief. Remember that many Frenchman collaborated with Hitler, and the extreme Muslims are simply the tools of the radical right in France, which still dislikes Jews.For all its perceived faults in Western eyes, Islam isn't equal to Nazism. A Jew can become a Muslim, but a Jew can never become an Aryan.
The hatred of Jews in Europe is based on race, a fact which some people don't want to acknowledge. Hitler basically didn't consider the Jews to be white people , and many people in Europe share that belief. Remember that many Frenchman collaborated with Hitler, and the extreme Muslims are simply the tools of the radical right in France, which still dislikes Jews.For all its perceived faults in Western eyes, Islam isn't equal to Nazism. A Jew can become a Muslim, but a Jew can never become an Aryan.
This columnist cannot see his own prejudice. He says that Islam is a religion but also a political movement but denied that Judaism would be defined the same way. In actuality both Islam and Judaism are only religions. But politicians of all types want to conflate nationality and ethnicity with a protected status (religion). One would have to call hereditary Jews, Hebrews and then nominate them as nationalised ethnicities, to be specific. Example would be Hebrew American, etc. Of course them you might specify a person as Germanic Hebrew American. Or, in my case, Irish Hungarian Heinz 57 American (to nominate all my national ancestors would be difficult). And if I wanted to get more specific I might say Magyar mitochondria, Indo European HLA'd etc. But here's what is going on.... War is profitable... When people are chased of their land and out of their houses, other people can steal the property. The national assets can be plundered. The art treasures can be sold on the black market. People can be enslaved and sold. Profits can be made in selling weapons and investors can become rich investing in war industries. Other, seemingly untouched nations can be enslaved by war loans guaranteed by their tax base. So forget all the prejudice and look at what is really going on...
36
True, I grew up in another generation at school in France where none of us had heard of a Muslim, let alone of the Prophet Muhammad. Nor, were we taught Shakespeare and introduced to his "Othello", the noble Moor of Venice. We were given at 13, the diary of Anne Frank to read and at 17, our history book of 110 pages had a brief paragraph suggesting that Hitler was the greatest criminal of the 20th Century - this is not much to go by, and our history teacher used to drone on once a week about submarines during WWII.
A Senegalese friend and devout Muslim goes to Temple and I always ask her to include me in her prayers - she is for Love and not for Hate. There is an epic poem by Alfred de Vigny 'The Sound of The Horn' where the Emperor Charlemagne and his army are confronting the Moors in the Pyrénées and his nephew, the great warrior, Roland confronts Africa who has surrounded his men. 'Surrender shouts The Moor, or you shall die'.
Before the Holy Crusades, before Charlemagne, in the Century of 774, it was the Africans who were in power against the Franks? The time has come for this person to read some history of the Muslims, and a book my father wrote long ago in a passionate search to explain that we were all Semitic.
Leaving it to others who know far more about 'Muslims and Jews on the Seine' to make a serious contribution to Mr. Cohen's important essay of today.
A Senegalese friend and devout Muslim goes to Temple and I always ask her to include me in her prayers - she is for Love and not for Hate. There is an epic poem by Alfred de Vigny 'The Sound of The Horn' where the Emperor Charlemagne and his army are confronting the Moors in the Pyrénées and his nephew, the great warrior, Roland confronts Africa who has surrounded his men. 'Surrender shouts The Moor, or you shall die'.
Before the Holy Crusades, before Charlemagne, in the Century of 774, it was the Africans who were in power against the Franks? The time has come for this person to read some history of the Muslims, and a book my father wrote long ago in a passionate search to explain that we were all Semitic.
Leaving it to others who know far more about 'Muslims and Jews on the Seine' to make a serious contribution to Mr. Cohen's important essay of today.
15
Many Muslims feel quite at home in France as much as Jews do! A multi-cultural France had worked in the past! This changed as a new wave of religious teachers from the Middle East, who preach hatred in Europe.
Of course in times of political uncertainties and economic downturn, people feel depressed and take out their anger on other people, not just on Muslims or Jews.
Of course in times of political uncertainties and economic downturn, people feel depressed and take out their anger on other people, not just on Muslims or Jews.
14
Awful, Muslims and Jews on the Seine. Ghostly whispers of Anti-Semitism and remembering the Dreyfus Affair of 1894. Paris no longer Charlie Hebdo's city. France's population of 5,000,000 Muslims and 478,000 Jews and the remnants of Vichy and Petain's German Occupation during WWII. Fanatical Islamists hate the Jews. The Jews aren't fans of Mohammed and the Qu'ran. The writing is on the wall, Roger Cohen. Prejudice, bigotry and hatred are reason enough for Jews in France to pick up sticks and move to a more hospitable diaspora place as the German Jews tried desperately to do from 1933 until their decimation in the Holocaust of the Dritte Reich. Better for a people to go where they are not hated. There are countries that would welcome French Jews.
21
We're kinda hoping they'll all come to Montreal.
are you actually writing new stuff or are these repeats?
3
Thoughts:
The penultimate paragraph is among the most succinct and truthful descriptions of Islam and the West I have read.
"The killers of January were deranged terrorists, he said, criminals with no claim to represent Islam." Far too many times I've read/heard "Christians" say the same about other "Christians" who have committed atrocities.
Muslims seem to want both an Islamic religious life as well an Islamic secular life is France. They have no understanding of the concept of laïcité as such a concept is not part of any life or country they have known.
What Muslims want in France is what they want in Israel.
The penultimate paragraph is among the most succinct and truthful descriptions of Islam and the West I have read.
"The killers of January were deranged terrorists, he said, criminals with no claim to represent Islam." Far too many times I've read/heard "Christians" say the same about other "Christians" who have committed atrocities.
Muslims seem to want both an Islamic religious life as well an Islamic secular life is France. They have no understanding of the concept of laïcité as such a concept is not part of any life or country they have known.
What Muslims want in France is what they want in Israel.
19
The author would be more persuasive if he recognized that the fanatics would not be satisfied if mocking the Holocaust was permitted--they still would want a death penalty for insults to Muhammed. That claim is just a smokescreen, designed to taunt their Jewish countrymen.
69
Mr. Cohen
As an Algerian who grew up in Paris my grand-father moved to France in 1912, notice I said moved not emigrated (Algeria was part of France then), his neighbors in Algeria were Jews, they got along just fine. And contrary to the stereotype we are all highly educated professionals. My family has nothing against Jews and we abhor all the violence against Jews or others, We don't consider ourselves victims of French oppression. We embrace the separation of religion and state, we oppose the religious fanatics and many Algerians in France feel the same way.
So please, please do not lump all Algerians in the same boat, we are a diverse group with diverse opinion.
As an Algerian who grew up in Paris my grand-father moved to France in 1912, notice I said moved not emigrated (Algeria was part of France then), his neighbors in Algeria were Jews, they got along just fine. And contrary to the stereotype we are all highly educated professionals. My family has nothing against Jews and we abhor all the violence against Jews or others, We don't consider ourselves victims of French oppression. We embrace the separation of religion and state, we oppose the religious fanatics and many Algerians in France feel the same way.
So please, please do not lump all Algerians in the same boat, we are a diverse group with diverse opinion.
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Allen:
Thank you for reminding me that Muslims are not a monolithic entity and that there are many Muslims with many different opinions.
On the same note, I'd like to remind those Muslims (and others) who lump all Jews together that we Jews are not a monolith either. As with Muslims, there are many of us Jews with many different opinions.
Therefore, it's dismaying that some Muslims in France try to blame French Jews (or, by extension, all Jews all over the world) for the policies of Israel, which is a sovereign political entity. Many of us non-Israeli Jews believe in Palestinian rights, but you wouldn't know it when these radical Muslims blame all Jews rather than Israel's right-wing government.
I speak for others when I say I am an American Jew, and I did not vote for Netanyahu. He is not my leader; President Obama is.
The fact that extreme Muslims and right-wing Frenchmen recently marched on the street of Paris crying "death to the Jews" chills me to the bone.
Thank you for reminding me that Muslims are not a monolithic entity and that there are many Muslims with many different opinions.
On the same note, I'd like to remind those Muslims (and others) who lump all Jews together that we Jews are not a monolith either. As with Muslims, there are many of us Jews with many different opinions.
Therefore, it's dismaying that some Muslims in France try to blame French Jews (or, by extension, all Jews all over the world) for the policies of Israel, which is a sovereign political entity. Many of us non-Israeli Jews believe in Palestinian rights, but you wouldn't know it when these radical Muslims blame all Jews rather than Israel's right-wing government.
I speak for others when I say I am an American Jew, and I did not vote for Netanyahu. He is not my leader; President Obama is.
The fact that extreme Muslims and right-wing Frenchmen recently marched on the street of Paris crying "death to the Jews" chills me to the bone.
Thank you Roger Cohen for your objectivity. Your first paragraph says it all, very succinctly. A horrendous act by a few fanatics in the name ( mind you, in the name ) of Islam paints all Muslims with the same brush. Muslims themselves are victims of these fanatics. If there is a false equivalence of all Muslims with these fanatics, should we condemn all Jews for the systematic flattening of Gaza by the Israeli Government and who support land grab in the West Bank by the ultra-orthodox Jews? If the hijab is banned why not the yammukah? Jews get police protection and bullet-proof cars, synagogues protected by soldiers while mosques get defaced and Muslims are forced into ghetto-like condition. Yours seems like a lone voice of reason.Maybe, if issues are seen from both sides will there a resolution of the never-ending saga of violence. But fanatics will be fanatics and no real Muslim or Jew can control them.
10
The law bans all symbols of religious affiliation in public primary and secondary schools.
1
Many Jews oppose and speak out against the policies of the Israeli government. Do you ever hear Muslims speak out against the policies or actions of their extremists? Why is that?
You are not supposed to wear a yarmulke or a cross necklace in schools, either.
While Muslims have felt free to deny and/or mock the Holocaust, it is only recently that any Jews have bothered to make anti-Islam statements, and that only in response to the years of open hatred and violence directed at them. For the Muslim leader in France to not acknowledge this is part of the pitiful lack of reaction to the increasingly twisted and jihadi turn of Islam among young Muslims. What came first is the savagery in the "name" of Islam, then for the Jews to either leave or demand further protection. Plus, whatever anti-Muslim graffiti and attacks occurring in France, you can be sure few if any are attributable to Jews. But it seems the isolated Muslim ghettoes prefer to blame it all on the few Jews, and feel their vengeance should include questioning the Holocaust, rather than admit to themselves that now a portion of non-Jewish French society are sickened by them.
63
I don't know about French Jews but I think the anti-Muslim sentiment goes somewhat deeper than that. And frankly, here in the US, I have faced some very nasty racism from Jews. Most of them have never met a Muslim. Should we assume the worst because someone somewhere with a shared identity is sowing hate? If so, should we not assume all Germans to be anti-Semitic, all men to be women haters, all Jews to be anti-Christian...so on. Let's stop dealing in stereotypes and tackle real problems as they come up. Let's tackle the person who beats up a Jew. Let's prosecute the person who vandalizes a mosque. Too many people in this comment thread are projecting onto the "Other". Their stance is the typical defensive, "you did it first' or "we didn't do it" attitude. Perhaps the Muslims need to stop blaming it all on the Jews (which they really can't given what is happening in the ME) and the Jews really need to stop blaming *all* the Muslims.
False equivalents are just lies. No one pokes fun at the home grown terror nightmare of 20 years ago at the Murra Building in Kansas. There is nothing to lampoon about the Holicaust or the murder of any humans, most especially when it is motivated by hate, demented religion and politics. Jews in Israel and in the US freely speak out against new settlements in the West Bank. They lampoon Netanyahu and company and they hold free elections and treat women as HUMANS. Why do people who despise western culture migrate to France, or Western Europe or to the US?? What is it about their homelands that drives them out? How about asking those questions.
162
Absolute rubbish. So jokes should be made illegal then?
They haven't been driven out. They are born French. What is it about French society that gives them the motivation to be radicalized? People who despise Western culture don't migrate. But their children sometimes begin to despise the dominant culture when they are told they must assimilate and yet when they do, they find all the doors still closed anyway. Why don't you actually do a little research on unemployment rates and racism before you talk in such generalities?
1
"What is it about their homelands that drives them out?" Hunger, for one thing.
Fifteen years ago, this may have been timely.
Paris may still have several hundred thousand Jews, but the ones who are taking flight are principally Jews of Arab extraction. Why? Because they are more traditional, more likely to live among other Jews, shop in kosher stores, attend synagogues and be identifiable as Jews. Anyone in Paris will tell you that for such people, the environment is increasingly dangerous. Attacks on Jews are regular and often brutal.
Whatever the faults of Charlie Hebdo, it is their Jewish identity alone that has marked them for attack.
Paris may still have several hundred thousand Jews, but the ones who are taking flight are principally Jews of Arab extraction. Why? Because they are more traditional, more likely to live among other Jews, shop in kosher stores, attend synagogues and be identifiable as Jews. Anyone in Paris will tell you that for such people, the environment is increasingly dangerous. Attacks on Jews are regular and often brutal.
Whatever the faults of Charlie Hebdo, it is their Jewish identity alone that has marked them for attack.
26
You say that "Islam is in crisis, a religion at war with itself," because a faction adopt "an ideology of hate and death drawn from a certain reading of Islamic texts."
For Arab Muslims, the locus of their encounter with Judaism is Israel (formerly known as "Palestine") where the "war within itself" is over whether or not the Zionist enterprise will be informed by Deuteronomy 7:2 and Deuteronomy 20:10 et seq.
For Arab Muslims, the locus of their encounter with Judaism is Israel (formerly known as "Palestine") where the "war within itself" is over whether or not the Zionist enterprise will be informed by Deuteronomy 7:2 and Deuteronomy 20:10 et seq.
1
As I recall, Muslims weren't all that fond of Jews LONG before a Jewish state was even thought of. I'm sure Israel is now the focus of their hostility toward Jews, but Jews lived in Arab countries for millennia, always as second class citizens, and sometimes worse. It would be nice if Muslims were honest about this. Their dislike of Jews began before Israel ever existed.
The contortionist equivalencies that Mr Cohen continually twists in in-order to justify Muslim extremism becomes more awkward and bizarre by the second as there is less and less room for justification but doesn't seem to have an end.
This reminds of a scene from a book- I think about Dr. Hannibal Lecter,- where he is cooking his victims brains while conversing pleasantly. I can imagine a scene of equivalent macabre bizarreness where the decapitated head of one of these apologists continues to pleasantly defend and explain the actions of its ISIS executioner.
This reminds of a scene from a book- I think about Dr. Hannibal Lecter,- where he is cooking his victims brains while conversing pleasantly. I can imagine a scene of equivalent macabre bizarreness where the decapitated head of one of these apologists continues to pleasantly defend and explain the actions of its ISIS executioner.
8
Reading these comments, I just marvel at how many think they know all about what Muslims think or want or mean or why, for that matter. How did you all get so smart? Especially those of you who are so vehemently and vigorously defending the fear that Jews apparently have of Muslims. Muslims are not the ones who committed the atrocities of the Holocaust, you know. Remember those were white European Christians.
11
Mimi, The reason that French Jews are afraid of Muslims is because the number of anti-semitic attacks from radical Muslims against Jews have been on the rise. Radical Muslims killed Jews in Paris in the supermarket and Jewish children at a school in Toulouse. They have attacked synagogues, throwing molotov cocktails and writing graffiti including swastikas. Muslims march in the streets chanting "kill the Jews" and "gas the Jews". Jews have been attacked and beaten. I could go on. So while Muslims are not responsible for the Holocaust, they are certainly to blame for the fear they are instilling in French Jews.
Were, not are!
You have to fight the anti-Semitism that exists in your time and place. In our time and place, most of the anti-Semitism is coming from Muslims, not Christians. As Jews, we all have a strong awareness of history, but as you may have noticed, it's very difficult to change history. What we CAN change is what is happening in the here and now, and right now our enemy is radical Islam.
It's always and everywhere the violence of Muslims and they will not voice disapproval as a group or even individually they remain silent and support the violence through silent ascension everywhere every day through massacre and horror all over the world all the time. No other group is like them and the world fears and cannot stop their medieval darkness and myth murder cycle we are all too polite to say stop your killing please stop for a while they are unstoppable hiding behind the quoran
16
Many outside the US - and surely many within - are currently very fearful of Netanyahu's war-mongering and Israel's undue influence on US foreign policy.
Thanks to the many Jews in the US and elsewhere who recognize the need to stop justifying brutal policies against Palestinians by demonizing all Muslims for the terrorist acts of a few. Many Holocaust survivors came forward last summer to condemn Israeli bombing in Gaza.
Fear-mongering and promoting hatred of any ethnicity is abhorrent.
Thanks to the many Jews in the US and elsewhere who recognize the need to stop justifying brutal policies against Palestinians by demonizing all Muslims for the terrorist acts of a few. Many Holocaust survivors came forward last summer to condemn Israeli bombing in Gaza.
Fear-mongering and promoting hatred of any ethnicity is abhorrent.
Holocaust denial was not imposed byJews, but by Allied when they were aware of the magnitude of the genocide and the necessity to avoid its repetition
20
You make some excellent points. However, if it is true that Muslim leaders need to condemn the violent fanatics in their ranks (and many have) it is equally true that the leaders of the West need to take responsibility for how their own actions have contributed to this problem. The role of the West and Israel in midwifing radical Islamic fundamentalism needs to be acknowledged; after generations of oppression and humiliation, too many Muslims were willing to turn to a fanatical form of religion as a way out. And if Muslims need to condemn the evil of their co-religionists, then so do Christians and Jews. Too many Jewish community leaders refuse to condemn Israel's violence towards Palestinians; indeed, many of them act to protect and support Israel as it commits this violence. There is a direct line between Israeli violence and the attacks on innocent Jews in France and elsewhere. If Israel were not oppressing Palestinians, there would simply not be an upswing in anti-Semitism among European Muslims today. This is not an excuse, just a recognition of an uncomfortable reality. The fear of French Jews is understandable, just as the fear and anger of French Muslims is equally understandable. Both sides need to start acknowledging the reasons for their mutual antagonism and begin to deal with it honestly. That will require both sides to give up their reflexive appeal to victimization and start taking responsibility for their own actions and attitudes.
12
The West is not merely a spectator of the internal conflict within Islam. The US-led invasion of Iraq helped to unleash (but of course did not create) the Sunni-Shia tensions that underlie so much of the deadly tension we see today. We expect Muslims to denounce the atrocities of people most of them feel no connection to. And if they did denounce them, would it change anything? Do we expect moderate Jews to denounce the activities of radical settlers in the West Bank and seek to hold them to account if they do not? The Jihadists are not seeking to influence moderate Muslims anymore than the most extreme settlers are seeking to influence moderate Jews. They are trying, first and foremost, to create facts on the ground: a pseudo-caliphate of sorts which is intended to demonstrate their policitcal viability (something al-Qaeda was incapable of doing). Second, they are trying to remove alternatives for peaceful coexistence between Muslims and non-Muslims by provoking a Western reaction so strong that, in time, the vast majority of Muslims will come to believe they have no other choice but separation and pursuit of an Islamist agenda.
13
"The US-led invasion of Iraq helped to unleash (but of course did not create) the Sunni-Shia tensions that underlie so much of the deadly tension we see today. "
Had Obama not pulled out, ISIS would never have gained a foothold in Iraq and Iran would still be in Iran. Iraq was stable by 2010 but Obama was anxious to fulfill a campaign promise instead of leveling with the American people about the need to keep troops there. Don't get me wrong, the invasion of Iraq by the Bush administration was one of the dumbest foreign policy moves in US history. But it could have been salvaged. Now its a disaster.
Had Obama not pulled out, ISIS would never have gained a foothold in Iraq and Iran would still be in Iran. Iraq was stable by 2010 but Obama was anxious to fulfill a campaign promise instead of leveling with the American people about the need to keep troops there. Don't get me wrong, the invasion of Iraq by the Bush administration was one of the dumbest foreign policy moves in US history. But it could have been salvaged. Now its a disaster.
Many thanks for this post. It is dead on point, and drives home the fact that Western states and societies need to make it their responsibility to fight criminal islamists just as they fight any other criminal groups, religious or not. If Western states have managed to neutralize violent networks with strong ideologies as diverse as extreme right wing and extreme left wing terrorists, neo-nazis, the klu klux klan and various mafias, surely they can eventually manage to prevent Islamists from killing their citizens.
Denying the Holocaust is not, and should not be, a crime in the US, where we give precedence to our First Amendment. In France, which enthusiastically shipped its own Jewish countrymen to the gas chambers when Hitler offered the opportunity, some truths are more important than the concept of free speech.
Insulting the Prophet is an entirely different matter. It is on a par with saying scurrilous things about Jesus or Moses, all of which are regrettable but legal both here and in France. Attempts to equate this to Holocaust denial are good rhetoric but bad logic.
Insulting the Prophet is an entirely different matter. It is on a par with saying scurrilous things about Jesus or Moses, all of which are regrettable but legal both here and in France. Attempts to equate this to Holocaust denial are good rhetoric but bad logic.
24
Waving a swastika in the US is not a crime in the US either; but it certainly is in Germany. I too support freedom of speech, but I can certainly see giving Germany some slack on this. Offering a quick tequila shot to a recovering alcoholic isn't a crime either; but I can see an argument for it to be one, just the same.
However, insulting religious figures is a little bit like yelling fire in a crowded theater. Nothing justifies murder, but it would still be nice if free speech was tempered with respect. Saying something just to be provocative isn't always the best course of action.
Good try Roger. But such a pitiful number of Jews left here and such an overwhelming number of Muslims sort of begs the question. Who is at risk here? Who is being threatened with murder? Jews are not out murdering Muslims. Name it Roger if you dare.
38
I think it's important to talk about equivalence. Boubakeur posits an equivalence between "jokes" about the murder of millions of people with "jokes" about Muslims, namely that in the name of religion they do terrible things (like other extremists in other religions). While I question this comparison, I also point out what people do about Holocaust denial/distortion and insults to Islam. Political action and media action versus terrorist actions and murder. You certainly cannot claim equivalence on one side and not demand it on the other.
9
"Jewish descendants of Holocaust survivors hear cries of “Death to the Jews” in the streets of Paris, chanted by so-called anti-Zionists."
"So-called"? What do you mean, "so-called", Mr. Cohen? I think they've made themselves fairly clear.
"So-called"? What do you mean, "so-called", Mr. Cohen? I think they've made themselves fairly clear.
37
No, I think in this case Roger is actually facing and presenting reality that so-called "anti-Zionism" is just a slick front for out and out Jew-hatred. To bad he is still unable to do the same when it comes to the Iranian mullahs.
1
I think one could rightfully call them, not anti-Zionists, but antisemites.
1
Wake up Mr. Cohen!
How comfortable would you feel--even in the U.S.--if some corner hangout guys said this to you while you were walking past them with your wife and children in tow?
Let's call an anti-Semite an anti-Semite no matter what religion they are.
1
Mr. Cohen makes some interesting and valid points. But when he states that he is a "free-speech absolutist" it is vital to stress that with freedom comes responsibility and accountability. I don't know exactly where lines should be drawn regarding Holocaust denial and Prophet bashing (in terms of whether it is a "crime"), but one of my area's local synagogues was painted with swastikas very recently - and the ideal response - which appears to have happened in my town - was a multi-ethnic community-based rally against religious/ethnic hate speech (note: the attack was not by Muslims). Those of us of all faiths who see both the wrongs of Antisemitism and the excesses of Islamophobia must speak out and have "the backs" of the good people of each religion - otherwise - between some of the extreme leadership and sensationalist media in the world - this problem could spiral and get out of hand. (And unfortunately this is exactly what some people want.)
13
Does anyone find it strange that the religious leaders of the four biggest faiths wear dresses? They suppress women while stealing their fashion. Something to ponder.
Mr. Cohen has hit it on the head. The Muslim world has not come close to handling their evil spawns. This now has to be addressed that they agree with some of it. I get the frustration of oppression but they should look closer to home.
France gave the USA the Statue of Liberty which says "give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses". The implication is we won't chop your head off if you end up on Cape Cod, not that we'll guarantee you to be quarterback of the football team, go onto a rah rah life in college and settle down in the perfect job with a wife and 2.5 kids. But it's possible that could happen. No one is ever going to get that. The difference between France (which is a tribe) and the Muslim tribes are laws. There is no central anything in the Muslim world without dictators or militias. Anyone with a gun can form a mini republic and it lasts for about 40 seconds. The world is constantly rolling over Muslims because they can't adapt. Most of the world moved on decades, if not centuries ago. Religion is a political movement as always. Why in the world would France want 2000 mosques? Also, Jews keep to themselves too. Except they embrace opportunity and experience gains. Muslims don't. We have plenty of china towns, Korea towns, German town, little Havanas. They all do great. You're the problem.
Mr. Cohen has hit it on the head. The Muslim world has not come close to handling their evil spawns. This now has to be addressed that they agree with some of it. I get the frustration of oppression but they should look closer to home.
France gave the USA the Statue of Liberty which says "give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses". The implication is we won't chop your head off if you end up on Cape Cod, not that we'll guarantee you to be quarterback of the football team, go onto a rah rah life in college and settle down in the perfect job with a wife and 2.5 kids. But it's possible that could happen. No one is ever going to get that. The difference between France (which is a tribe) and the Muslim tribes are laws. There is no central anything in the Muslim world without dictators or militias. Anyone with a gun can form a mini republic and it lasts for about 40 seconds. The world is constantly rolling over Muslims because they can't adapt. Most of the world moved on decades, if not centuries ago. Religion is a political movement as always. Why in the world would France want 2000 mosques? Also, Jews keep to themselves too. Except they embrace opportunity and experience gains. Muslims don't. We have plenty of china towns, Korea towns, German town, little Havanas. They all do great. You're the problem.
19
"Jews keep to themselves?" Seriously? Do you know any Jews? If so you know that Jewish people are as well-integrated into society, Western or Eastern, as anybody on this planet - not that that has stopped sequential massacres and finally, genocide. German Jews in particular were - well - German!
1
"Does anyone find it strange that the religious leaders of the four biggest faiths wear dresses? They suppress women while stealing their fashion. "
I find it strange you think this is worth bringing up. Not all religions suppress women, and in any case they are not wearing dresses that is likely derived from style of dress in the middle east. "The difference between France (which is a tribe) and the Muslim tribes are laws. There is no central anything in the Muslim world without dictators or militias. " Well I'd say that's wrong. Islam has Sharia law.
I find it strange you think this is worth bringing up. Not all religions suppress women, and in any case they are not wearing dresses that is likely derived from style of dress in the middle east. "The difference between France (which is a tribe) and the Muslim tribes are laws. There is no central anything in the Muslim world without dictators or militias. " Well I'd say that's wrong. Islam has Sharia law.
1
Mr. Cohen,
It is not unlawful to ridicule Moses or any other Jewish prophet--or Jesus Christ, for that matter--in France, and you know that. A shoddy admission.
Another point missing here is that a Muslim can walk safely in a Jewish neighborhood in Paris, but a Jew wearing a kippa in a Muslim neighborhood is not unlikely to be set upon, insulted or beaten. That is a fact for the Jews of France, but to you it is evidently not worthy of our attention.
It is not unlawful to ridicule Moses or any other Jewish prophet--or Jesus Christ, for that matter--in France, and you know that. A shoddy admission.
Another point missing here is that a Muslim can walk safely in a Jewish neighborhood in Paris, but a Jew wearing a kippa in a Muslim neighborhood is not unlikely to be set upon, insulted or beaten. That is a fact for the Jews of France, but to you it is evidently not worthy of our attention.
59
Your comment is not an exaggeration in the least. There is an interesting video of a Jewish journalist who decided to wear a kippa and walk through a Muslim neighborhood of Paris. He was accompanied by a Muslim bodyguard, who walked 10 feet behind him with a hidden camera, and a driver following a half a block away. He was met mostly with looks of surprise, but also comments that were very often anti-Semitic and very much anti-Israel and was spat upon, as well. After a few hours, the bodyguard had to call the driver from nearby to get them out of there quickly as he had overheard conversations of how some Muslim youths planned to confront at a nearby corner the Jew that had been spotted in their neighborhood. The bodyguard stated that he feared for both their lives since he knew he would not be able to protect the journalist on his own.
These things don't happen in Jewish neighborhoods to Muslims or anyone else.
These things don't happen in Jewish neighborhoods to Muslims or anyone else.
1
"Many Muslims are sick of the monopoly on victimhood they argue Jews have established since the Holocaust". Is ths a reason they hate Jews (not Israel or normal anti semitism) or to hold that French society at large is unfair to them because they do not recognize Muslim "victimhood', despite the fact that its not clear what exacty they are victims of.
There is a reason we have never heard of this greivance before. And that is because its based on nothing more than Dalil Boubakeur's mistaken understanding about why Holocaust denial is illegal in many European countries.
Holocaust denial is illegal not just in France, but in Germany too along with Austria Belgium, the Czech Republic, Hungary, The Netherlands, Spain, Switzerland and many others.
And the reason for these laws are that were it legal it would become so common that it would have become a legitimate view in the last generation and would have gained even more acceptance as time went on.
The law is not to protect Jews, but so as not to give the greatest victory to the Nazis, who are after all the enemy of non Jews also. And in the US also where there is a compelling overriding need laws can be enacted that override the constitution.
However the way it works with many of those that seek to hate and to feel wronged, the hatred and victimization come first, they then come up with the grievances afterwards.
There is a reason we have never heard of this greivance before. And that is because its based on nothing more than Dalil Boubakeur's mistaken understanding about why Holocaust denial is illegal in many European countries.
Holocaust denial is illegal not just in France, but in Germany too along with Austria Belgium, the Czech Republic, Hungary, The Netherlands, Spain, Switzerland and many others.
And the reason for these laws are that were it legal it would become so common that it would have become a legitimate view in the last generation and would have gained even more acceptance as time went on.
The law is not to protect Jews, but so as not to give the greatest victory to the Nazis, who are after all the enemy of non Jews also. And in the US also where there is a compelling overriding need laws can be enacted that override the constitution.
However the way it works with many of those that seek to hate and to feel wronged, the hatred and victimization come first, they then come up with the grievances afterwards.
31
"Holocaust denial is illegal in many European countries"
That is silly. You can't make an opinion illegal, and attempting to suppress the expression of an opinion does nothing to erase it, even if it drives it underground. It would be better if the "holocaust deniers" spoke their opinions to that it could be vigorously discussed in the open rather than forgotten and their foolish opinions shown to be false. At least in the US we still have some freedom of speech.
That is silly. You can't make an opinion illegal, and attempting to suppress the expression of an opinion does nothing to erase it, even if it drives it underground. It would be better if the "holocaust deniers" spoke their opinions to that it could be vigorously discussed in the open rather than forgotten and their foolish opinions shown to be false. At least in the US we still have some freedom of speech.
One is amused to note that in this very French matter of "Why identity (of Muslim immigrants) could not be Gallic" Roger Cohen has managed somehow to find space in his column to blame the Jews.
Oh Mr. Cohen, how much more bitter than a serpent's tooth.....One can scarcely imagine what psychic horror your ancestors' faith and families inflicted that you should end up this sort of poor-Johnny-one-note, forever finding cause to chastise the people of the book.
Oh Mr. Cohen, how much more bitter than a serpent's tooth.....One can scarcely imagine what psychic horror your ancestors' faith and families inflicted that you should end up this sort of poor-Johnny-one-note, forever finding cause to chastise the people of the book.
18
Normally, Roger blames it all on Bibi Netanyahu. Maybe he's tapped out?
Last evening, we met with our daughter and granddaughter to plan for our visit to Paris. We were sad to tell our young granddaughter that not only are there entire sections of Paris we must avoid. We also have to prepare our sweet granddaughter for the likely experience of her first anti American insults and threats. If it continues to be as bad as it has been in the past 10 years, this will be our last trip there. Paris does not just have a Jew / Muslim problem. It is a Paris problem, a French problem, and a serious economic problem. So much of the Paris' economy depends upon tourism. That revenue is going to be lost if Paris continues to ignore the dangers. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't extreme poverty and fear of poverty one of the contributing elements of this problem? How will losing tourism revenue make things better in Paris? One thing the NYT can do is pay attention to those who are speaking the words of peace and negotiation in Paris. Publish the efforts of those who are working on a peaceful negotiations. Stop giving air time to the haters and those who deepen the division between religions and cultures. Hey, I'm Irish and I am still amazed and thankful that the south and north of Ireland are no longer killing one another. We know it can be done. And, these days, it is clear we must do what ever we can do to set the stage for future peace. Our grandchildren need this from us.
20
Refreshing response. When living in Israel, I was told that Palestinians were "not human" and my son was beaten up and robbed of cherished toys because he was one of those dirty Gentile Americans! Shocking because I could see how much U.S. money was being syphoned into their defense industry. The upshot is that we have NOT been able to stand for or work for peace without offending our Israeli allies. Still the case today, and legitimized by our crazy Republican Congress which seems to be beholden to Bibi instead of to our own people. Then, Islamaphobia, on the other hand, is rampant in both the U.S. and Europe, but rarely noted, in contrast to anti-semitic acts. Israel discriminates against Muslims in perpetually cruel acts (land seizures, house demolitions, arrests without charges, violent reprisals against non-violent protests, restrictions on travel within Palestinian lands causing separation of families, usurpation of natural resources, etc. etc. etc.) and we turn a blind eye. Iran spouts racist rhetoric which doesn't affect the Jewish population resident there or us or Israel, and we view them as devils that we cannot even TALK to. So what if they don't like us after our history of brutal meddling . The past cannot be undone, but we can forge something in the present, and it looks as tho Iran is a more willing partner than Bibi. Let's work toward agreements TODAY which focus on strategies for peace instead of grievances about the past.
I've lived in Paris and France on and off for years. It's not Jewish Parisians who might harass your granddaughter. It's the young French Muslim males - always when in groups and NEVER when alone, which in itself speaks volumes. And, guess what! Depending upon her age, if she is a teen, then she can expect more than verbal harassment, which includes countless crude propositions that if she understood and refused would result in her being probably spat upon. If no male family members are next to her, she can expect to be leered at (many places) and have to deal with attempts at groping her on the Metro in broad daylight. Let me make this clear: it does not matter how she is dressed. Jeans and a T-shirt is no different than being dressed for a funeral. For your sake, I hope that she is not blonde or even a redhead, since this greatly increases the degree of harassment.
My family is also Irish and am a dual national, so my family lived through the conflicts between north/south and with the UK. Your comparison to that situation ("the north/south killing each other") to the one in France is a false equivalency. French Muslims have killed French Jews but there have been no cases reported in years of any French Jew killing French Muslims. Furthermore, Irish Catholics were the majority and the natives and their gripes were mainly against the British government and the de facto form of apartheid that they instituted in N. Ireland. Nothing of the sort exists in France for Muslims.
My family is also Irish and am a dual national, so my family lived through the conflicts between north/south and with the UK. Your comparison to that situation ("the north/south killing each other") to the one in France is a false equivalency. French Muslims have killed French Jews but there have been no cases reported in years of any French Jew killing French Muslims. Furthermore, Irish Catholics were the majority and the natives and their gripes were mainly against the British government and the de facto form of apartheid that they instituted in N. Ireland. Nothing of the sort exists in France for Muslims.
1
I have visited Paris several times in the last 10 years. I speak French well and I understand what people around me are saying. I have never once encountered
"anti-American insults and threats."
"anti-American insults and threats."
The reckless mass immigration of 10's of millions orchestrated in recent decades by our few percent nobility of business owners greedy for the functional equivalent of slave labor has caused similar problems in the US & often causes the same civil war like violence here. A growing number of 'diasporas', who our elites encourage not to assimilate, not to accept our society's norms of tolerance, willingness to obey legislated law and to become patriotic citizens whose first loyalty is to this society that was charitable enough to welcome them are Balkanizing our society. Hispanics openly carry Mexican flags and chant "Re-conquest", and many other Latin Americans here evidence the same willingness to do the assorted violence that caused their countries of origin to be the failed states that they departed as "economic" migrants. The USA must return to a much lower & selective immigration rate of 200,000/year of people carefully screened and sworn, required to sign a contract pledging to become patriotic Americans or face deportation. We must also return to being a society governed by the rule of law. Local and state as well as federal agencies must be trained, funded and required to detect and turn over to ICE for immediate deportation anyone in the nation illegally. We must also institute a visa tracking system that immediately sends an arrest warrant to all law enforcement agencies & provides a searchable data base for all foreigners who have overstayed their visas.
4
How about France?
There is no federal law that demands that all undocumented immigrants MUST be returned to their country of origin.
Just to point out the recent article in the Times commenting on the increase in anti-Muslim events in France. The Times didn't bother to do all the math for everyone. Last year, before the Charlie Hebdo and Jewish market killings (because the increase in anti-Muslim sentiment didn't happen in a vacuum) there were 850 anti-Semitic acts in France. There were less than 150 anti-Muslim acts. That is over a 5 to one ratio. As Mr. Cohen notes, the Muslim population of France is 10 times that of the Jewish population. These are the cogent figures one needs to understand what is really happening in France.
Jews are not attacking Muslims. Jews are not killing Muslims. Jews have not been defacing Muslim places of worship. And while Muslims feel denigrated, they are not fearing for their lives.
Now to the math - 10 times the population, 1/5th the incidence of hostile acts (which as previously noted, don't include religious killing by Jews) - in my book (and I admit I am no math wizard) this means the relative frequency of acts against Jews (committed mostly but not entirely by Muslims) is 50 times higher. A small piece of data - that the Times should have included.
It should not be necessary to have to cobble together 3 articles (and in my case, some googling) to get the all the numbers and the whole picture.
Does this change anyone's perspective???
Jews are not attacking Muslims. Jews are not killing Muslims. Jews have not been defacing Muslim places of worship. And while Muslims feel denigrated, they are not fearing for their lives.
Now to the math - 10 times the population, 1/5th the incidence of hostile acts (which as previously noted, don't include religious killing by Jews) - in my book (and I admit I am no math wizard) this means the relative frequency of acts against Jews (committed mostly but not entirely by Muslims) is 50 times higher. A small piece of data - that the Times should have included.
It should not be necessary to have to cobble together 3 articles (and in my case, some googling) to get the all the numbers and the whole picture.
Does this change anyone's perspective???
121
It seems the only way to counter this xenophobia is through community--both cultures need to hang out with each other, eat with each other, party with each other--if that is even possible. If this cannot happen naturally, the government should promote this acculturation. Promote integrated neighborhoods and schools, create a public relation program that educates and humanizes, fund art that enables empathy. There are ways to stop the divide, but it takes, courage, vision, and leadership--maybe that is what is lacking, on both sides.
2
PE,
The government of France has weakly tried to break the ghettoization.
Sadly, most towns run by Sarkozy's center-right parties always refused to engage in housing projects to that end; preferring to pay penalties.
Neuilly, Sarko's home base has no low-cost housing.
Corporations discriminate in hiring on a daily basis, yet, don't get charged.
The unemployment of the young male Beur has been hovering at 40% for the last 20 yrs and the jobs that they get are low income.
At the end of Mitterrand's tenure, 25-30% of the students in the major universities came from low income backgrounds. Sarko and Co slashed that down to 7-8%.
The government of France has weakly tried to break the ghettoization.
Sadly, most towns run by Sarkozy's center-right parties always refused to engage in housing projects to that end; preferring to pay penalties.
Neuilly, Sarko's home base has no low-cost housing.
Corporations discriminate in hiring on a daily basis, yet, don't get charged.
The unemployment of the young male Beur has been hovering at 40% for the last 20 yrs and the jobs that they get are low income.
At the end of Mitterrand's tenure, 25-30% of the students in the major universities came from low income backgrounds. Sarko and Co slashed that down to 7-8%.
"But why do Muslims eye Jews with unease?"
How about Eric Zemmour, Sephardic media darling, who calls out for a mass-deportation of French Muslims while promoting their genetic inferiority.
How about Rabbi Kahane's Jewish Defense League in France?
How about Roger Cukierman recently relativizing the extremist, xenophobic followers of Le Pen as good ole' boys?
http://www.liguedefensejuive.com/
How about Eric Zemmour, Sephardic media darling, who calls out for a mass-deportation of French Muslims while promoting their genetic inferiority.
How about Rabbi Kahane's Jewish Defense League in France?
How about Roger Cukierman recently relativizing the extremist, xenophobic followers of Le Pen as good ole' boys?
http://www.liguedefensejuive.com/
15
How many French Muslims have been murdered by Jewish extremists & criminals and how many French Jews have been murdered by Muslim extremists & criminals? The answer makes clear that this is a false equivalence.
3
A column filled with good sense and wisdom: "The resolution of the crisis of Islam can only come through denunciation from within of the slaughterers — and recognition, rather than denial, of their Islamist inspiration."
You have to ask, though - at the risk of being a complete pessimist and cynic - what, really, are the chances of that?
You have to ask, though - at the risk of being a complete pessimist and cynic - what, really, are the chances of that?
20
" The double-standards argument of French Muslims is understandable — even if denying the Holocaust, a fact, and mocking Islam, a religion that is also a political movement, do not amount to the same thing."
They are indeed not equivalent...and for those expat Muslims who are offended, it needs to be understood that the price they pay to practice their own faith, safely within their newly established mosques, with neither Sunni nor Shia blowing them up, is the acceptance of equal opportunity slights and biases which cannot allowed to be met with chopping off peoples' heads and shooting them dead.
Everything is a trade off...the ideal is the golden rule standard...but as we see in our own country where bad mouthing is part of the deal and education is part of the solution, feeling that one has the right to defend his/her own agenda with deadly silencing, won't work and mustn't be permitted.
They are indeed not equivalent...and for those expat Muslims who are offended, it needs to be understood that the price they pay to practice their own faith, safely within their newly established mosques, with neither Sunni nor Shia blowing them up, is the acceptance of equal opportunity slights and biases which cannot allowed to be met with chopping off peoples' heads and shooting them dead.
Everything is a trade off...the ideal is the golden rule standard...but as we see in our own country where bad mouthing is part of the deal and education is part of the solution, feeling that one has the right to defend his/her own agenda with deadly silencing, won't work and mustn't be permitted.
37
"Muslims complain that questioning the Holocaust is forbidden by law but insulting the Prophet Muhammad is not. Two weights, two measures, they say."
Holocaust denial is illegal in France because France deported 70,000 Jews to their death and so was complicit in the Holocaust. Hence Holocaust denial would be a denial of France's efforts to maintain itself as an honorable contributor to human civilization. The right to insult the Prophet Muhammad, or Jesus, Moses, Buddha, etc. is also an important factor in French identity as established since the 18th Century. The killing of Jews by Muslims in France is in no way justified but this phony "Two weights, two measures" argument. Shame on Boubakeur for giving voice to this insanity. Where did his enlightened moderation suddenly disappear?
Holocaust denial is illegal in France because France deported 70,000 Jews to their death and so was complicit in the Holocaust. Hence Holocaust denial would be a denial of France's efforts to maintain itself as an honorable contributor to human civilization. The right to insult the Prophet Muhammad, or Jesus, Moses, Buddha, etc. is also an important factor in French identity as established since the 18th Century. The killing of Jews by Muslims in France is in no way justified but this phony "Two weights, two measures" argument. Shame on Boubakeur for giving voice to this insanity. Where did his enlightened moderation suddenly disappear?
92
I agree, Mr. Cohen should have stated this fact clearly in his editorial:
"Holocaust denial is illegal in France because France deported 70,000 Jews to their death and so was complicit in the Holocaust. Hence Holocaust denial would be a denial of France's efforts to maintain itself as an honorable contributor to human civilization".
As a non-practicing, secular Jew, people like Cohen frighten me...during WWII he's "that Jew", the collaborator, who encouraged other Jews to pack a bag and calmly vacate their homes, telling them go with the French police to the local train station for their own protection; he was "that Jew" who calmed other Jews down as they climbed aboard the cattle cars, telling them not to worry; he was "that Jew" who met the cattle cars and calmly directed the frightened souls toward the gas chambers, telling them a refreshing shower awaited them. He's "that Jew", that most despicable Jew.
"Holocaust denial is illegal in France because France deported 70,000 Jews to their death and so was complicit in the Holocaust. Hence Holocaust denial would be a denial of France's efforts to maintain itself as an honorable contributor to human civilization".
As a non-practicing, secular Jew, people like Cohen frighten me...during WWII he's "that Jew", the collaborator, who encouraged other Jews to pack a bag and calmly vacate their homes, telling them go with the French police to the local train station for their own protection; he was "that Jew" who calmed other Jews down as they climbed aboard the cattle cars, telling them not to worry; he was "that Jew" who met the cattle cars and calmly directed the frightened souls toward the gas chambers, telling them a refreshing shower awaited them. He's "that Jew", that most despicable Jew.
This whole argument seems absurd. Western societies take pride in the fact that we don't hold religious leaders or political leaders sacred. I understand how other cultures would find this offensive and I could see how unpleasant it would be to live in a society that held views in such stark contrast to my own. That is why I live here and not in Saudi Arabia. Fortunately there are many Western countries and many Muslim countries so that we can all make choices.
To compare making fun of the Holocaust to making fun of the prophet is a false equivalency. Watching the comedy channel or SNL and you can see that we make fun of Jewish and Christian "prophets" on a regular basis. The Holocaust is a human catastrophe and the equivalency would be making fun of the Japanese who died from the Atom Bomb or Kurds or who were gassed by Sadaam Hussein.
Lastly to draw an equivalency between anti-semitism and anti-muslim sentiments is absurd. While most Muslims aren't terrorist- most terrorists at least claim to be muslim. No one gets on a plane with a Chasidic or Orthodox Jew and worries that thy might be a terrorist. Just as the Nazis left a black mark on everything German, modern day terrorists are doing the same thing to Islam. Its not fair but it is the reality of the world we live in.
To compare making fun of the Holocaust to making fun of the prophet is a false equivalency. Watching the comedy channel or SNL and you can see that we make fun of Jewish and Christian "prophets" on a regular basis. The Holocaust is a human catastrophe and the equivalency would be making fun of the Japanese who died from the Atom Bomb or Kurds or who were gassed by Sadaam Hussein.
Lastly to draw an equivalency between anti-semitism and anti-muslim sentiments is absurd. While most Muslims aren't terrorist- most terrorists at least claim to be muslim. No one gets on a plane with a Chasidic or Orthodox Jew and worries that thy might be a terrorist. Just as the Nazis left a black mark on everything German, modern day terrorists are doing the same thing to Islam. Its not fair but it is the reality of the world we live in.
134
The only "terror" a Chasidic Jew might cause would be to force a woman on a plane to change her seat. (See recent NY Times piece.) They may insult and cause inconvenience, but it is hardly murder.
3
As far as I know, making fun of the Holocaust *is* protected under French law, just like making fun of the Prophet. Opinions in both cases.
The only crime there is denying that the Holocaust historically happened. As an American, I'm ambivalent about that law. But as limitations on free speech go, it's not so terrible. It's in the same category as laws that we have even in America -- laws against libel, perjury, and false advertising. All of these laws aim to limit FALSE speech when it would be particularly harmful. They do not prohibit expressions of opinion (nor true statements, nor even ordinary falsehoods).
The only crime there is denying that the Holocaust historically happened. As an American, I'm ambivalent about that law. But as limitations on free speech go, it's not so terrible. It's in the same category as laws that we have even in America -- laws against libel, perjury, and false advertising. All of these laws aim to limit FALSE speech when it would be particularly harmful. They do not prohibit expressions of opinion (nor true statements, nor even ordinary falsehoods).
1
You should research the crimes of the Zionist terrorists, notably the Stern Gang and Menachim Begin's terrorist activies in Palenstine in 1948. I'm sure the familes of the people murdered by them would take issue with your last paragraph's contention.
How convenient is forgetfulness. How else to write:
"The West is a spectator to this internal conflict and a victim of it."
Does Mr. Cohen remember only the last 10 - 15 years? If only that, look how much he has forgotten: the invasion and incompetence in Afghanistan; the criminal invasion and occupation of Iraq, equally incompetent, equally violent to Afghanistan; and the droning of south Asia.
But how convenient also to forget: the US/west colonization of all the Middle East including Israel and South Asia; the overthrow of elected and preferred rules in Iraq and Iran; the support for vicious, patently un-"democratic" dictators such as in Saudi Arabia, to this day; and all for oil, oil, and more oil and the obscene profits of the ruling class.
"Spectator"? "Victim",Mr. Cohen? How convenient. I prefer, if I may, "The West is the central cause of this internal conflict." Just a modest amendment from unforgetfulness, Mr. Cohen.
"The West is a spectator to this internal conflict and a victim of it."
Does Mr. Cohen remember only the last 10 - 15 years? If only that, look how much he has forgotten: the invasion and incompetence in Afghanistan; the criminal invasion and occupation of Iraq, equally incompetent, equally violent to Afghanistan; and the droning of south Asia.
But how convenient also to forget: the US/west colonization of all the Middle East including Israel and South Asia; the overthrow of elected and preferred rules in Iraq and Iran; the support for vicious, patently un-"democratic" dictators such as in Saudi Arabia, to this day; and all for oil, oil, and more oil and the obscene profits of the ruling class.
"Spectator"? "Victim",Mr. Cohen? How convenient. I prefer, if I may, "The West is the central cause of this internal conflict." Just a modest amendment from unforgetfulness, Mr. Cohen.
12
Doug..If your point is that the West is the cause of this 'internal' conflict, then what do you say about beheadings, kidnappings, planes flown into towers, embassies blown up, writers and editors murdered, forced conversion, rape, hijackings? Who is to balme for these atrocities?
1
Mr Cohen, whose intelligence is admirable, should have hinted at Gaza. How one can ignore that Gaza is responsible for most tensions between Muslim and French Jews?
16
And how is that statement possibly applicable? Shall we hold all Muslims responsible for the atrocities in the New Caliphate? Shall we hold all Catholics responsible for The Troubles in Ireland?
No, Mr. Alberto812, this is antisemitism. It has nothing to do with Gaza or the West Bank or Jerusalem.
http://wifelyperson.blogspot.com/
No, Mr. Alberto812, this is antisemitism. It has nothing to do with Gaza or the West Bank or Jerusalem.
http://wifelyperson.blogspot.com/
4
It shouldn't be ignored, but it isn't what is responsible for the tensions. The Muslim bigots don't target Israelis or even Zionists, they target Jews--and they do so citing words from the Koran and Hadith which antedate the current struggles over Gaza by many centuries.
4
Since most French Muslims are Algerians?
8
No, Mr. Cohen, the double standards argument of French Muslims that it is unfair that denying the Holocaust is illegal but it is not illegal to mock Islam is not understandable. There is a world of difference between the idiocy or at the very least intellectual dishonesty in denying historical facts and the questioning of the many barbaric aspects of Islam (particularly when many of the positions espoused by Muslims are just beliefs and/or opinions, not facts).
If French Muslims want to live in a Western democracy, they need to understand that the questioning and even mockery of their religion is acceptable conduct. Having one's beliefs and opinions questioned and even having one's feelings hurt is the price of free speech. It is acceptance of this trade-off that allowed the West to escape the intellectual shackles of the Church and experience rapid progress in the sciences and humanities over the last few hundred years.
Muslims who want to live in the West who cannot accept the principle of free expression should return to countries more suited to their intolerance. There they can "enjoy" societies which value religious arrogance and absolutism above freedom of speech and experience the effects of such attitudes (eg, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Iran, etc). Maybe then they would have more appreciation for Western values. In the meantime, we in the West who know history are not going to give up our hard-won freedoms for Muslim medievalism.
If French Muslims want to live in a Western democracy, they need to understand that the questioning and even mockery of their religion is acceptable conduct. Having one's beliefs and opinions questioned and even having one's feelings hurt is the price of free speech. It is acceptance of this trade-off that allowed the West to escape the intellectual shackles of the Church and experience rapid progress in the sciences and humanities over the last few hundred years.
Muslims who want to live in the West who cannot accept the principle of free expression should return to countries more suited to their intolerance. There they can "enjoy" societies which value religious arrogance and absolutism above freedom of speech and experience the effects of such attitudes (eg, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Iran, etc). Maybe then they would have more appreciation for Western values. In the meantime, we in the West who know history are not going to give up our hard-won freedoms for Muslim medievalism.
177
"there is a world of difference between the idiocy or at the very least intellectual dishonesty in denying historical facts and the questioning of the many barbaric aspects of Islam (particularly when many of the positions espoused by Muslims are just beliefs and/or opinions, not facts)."
So idiocy and intellectual dishonesty should be made illegal?
Magazines such as Charlie Hebdo made unrelenting jokes about the very essence of Islam, not just the "barbaric aspects" ... whatever that means.
So sir, now that we have established that your comment was most certainly "intellectually dishonest" can we safely say that comments of this type should also be made illegal under French law?
So idiocy and intellectual dishonesty should be made illegal?
Magazines such as Charlie Hebdo made unrelenting jokes about the very essence of Islam, not just the "barbaric aspects" ... whatever that means.
So sir, now that we have established that your comment was most certainly "intellectually dishonest" can we safely say that comments of this type should also be made illegal under French law?
Thank you for your clear, well thought and well expressed analysis.
A very thought-provoking column by Mr Cohen that gets close to the central conundrum of Muslims living in a Western society: how does a group that above all defines its identity by its religion assimilate into a pluralistic society where loyalty to a secular state defined by democratically derived law is the highest duty demanded of all citizens?
The Muslim cleric says: "Muslims don’t want to dilute themselves in this false assimilation and integration.”
So, what does a western society do? Create two virtual states within its borders, separate and equal?
The Muslim cleric says: "Muslims don’t want to dilute themselves in this false assimilation and integration.”
So, what does a western society do? Create two virtual states within its borders, separate and equal?
23
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.
Several posters have rightly pointed out that Holocaust denial is a denial of history, whereas insulting the Prophet is a denial of faith. This is a valid distinction, but doesn't alter the fact that a ban on Holocaust denial violates the principle of free speech just as a ban on insulting the faith would. Free speech never meant that speech had to be correct, only that it had to be free. The French ban on Holocaust denial should not rankle because of the fact that some Muslims see an asymmetry in not banning insults to the Prophet, but because banning speech on the grounds of historical inaccuracy is a restriction of freedom, one that opens the way to further bans where the historical record is not so clear-cut but where partisans of a particular historical viewpoint are able to impose their interpretation.
15
"Islamophobia is on the rise, we’ve had more incidents of hate and racism this year than ever before. "
Gee, I wonder why. But perhaps Muslims should themselves try to provide insight into this question. After all, in the Middle East, Muslims are killing each other in far, far greater numbers than they are killing any other category of people.
Gee, I wonder why. But perhaps Muslims should themselves try to provide insight into this question. After all, in the Middle East, Muslims are killing each other in far, far greater numbers than they are killing any other category of people.
29
finally someone draws attention to this 'elephant in the room' Good on you.
Roger Cohen writes, Islam is a 'religion,' but Holocaust is a 'fact.' Islam too is a fact, in more ways than one, a present fact, based on historical facts going back to the seventh century CE. Likewise, the Holocaust also is a religion -- certainly for secular Jews -- a fact made sacred for a variety of reasons.
6
Really? The Holocaust is a "religion"? I think you've made yourself very clear. No wonder there's a problem.
9
That Mohammed existed is a fact. Islam is based on the dreams "god" told Mohammed. Dreams are not facts.
2
Islam is an ideology. The holocaust is a fact. It is sad that you, like so many of your fellow Muslims, are unable to tell the difference between the two. Muslims need to stop telling both envying the Jews our dead and telling those of us living Jews how to remember them or how to react to Islamic hatred of us.
4
Roger Cohen is mistaken in comparing Holocaust denial with Islam-bashing, but not for the reasons that other commentors point to.
Holocaust denial should be compared to other types of historical denials- all of which are completely legal in France and in the West. In the West, I could take to the streets and shout that the Armenian and Rawandan genocides were both lies. I could also shout that the moon landing was a conspiracy, and that Barack Obama is really a Kenyan Muslim socialist dictator. These lies are all permissible. So why does the Holocaust get special protection?
As a free speech absolutist myself, I say, "let the loonies waive their flags freely." Because otherwise, it just further fuels the suspicion among anti-Semites that Jews are given special privileges and protections that others are not afforded.
Holocaust denial should be compared to other types of historical denials- all of which are completely legal in France and in the West. In the West, I could take to the streets and shout that the Armenian and Rawandan genocides were both lies. I could also shout that the moon landing was a conspiracy, and that Barack Obama is really a Kenyan Muslim socialist dictator. These lies are all permissible. So why does the Holocaust get special protection?
As a free speech absolutist myself, I say, "let the loonies waive their flags freely." Because otherwise, it just further fuels the suspicion among anti-Semites that Jews are given special privileges and protections that others are not afforded.
21
I also support free speech (although even in the US free speech isn't limitless). The reason Holocaust denial is considered unacceptable in France is because of the guilt post-war France felt for being an active participant. The French government, French policemen, French investigators, and French railroaders actively cooperated with the German SS in arresting, torturing and deporting French Jews to concentration camps.
2
I don't think that Cohen is comparing holocaust denial to mohammed bashing; Muslims are.
2
This is one of the exceptions to free speech, in my opinion. Anti-semitism has been with us for centuries. It ebbs and flows. There is so much disinformation about Jews that if enough people deny the Holocaust loudly enough that denial will become truth.
Never Forget.
Never Forget.
4
Cohen tries to be fair, but if, in a piece about Muslims and Jews, he is going to maintain that Islam is "a religion that is also a political movement," he should also point out the political aspects of Judaism reflected in the Zionist movement.
As for the failure of Muslims to self-criticize, perhaps Cohen should take a look at a recent Times of Israel piece by Rabbi Marc Schneier, "Muslims DO speak out, we’re just not listening."
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/author/marc-schneier/
As for the failure of Muslims to self-criticize, perhaps Cohen should take a look at a recent Times of Israel piece by Rabbi Marc Schneier, "Muslims DO speak out, we’re just not listening."
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/author/marc-schneier/
15
A handful of Jews cannot compare with the huge numbers of Muslims who refuse to assimilate and insist on changing French society to suit their needs.
1
The comments on the French Muslims demand for new mosques deserves
some points:
1) I doubt anyone wants the Saudis to supply their funding.
2) In the late 1990's, Jean-Pierre Chevènement (ministre de l'Intérieur et des Cultes) brought French Islam under state management.
3) The tensions/racism between Sephardic and French of muslim descent is a two-way street with many complications rooted in colonial Algeria started in 1830. Before colonization these peoples lived in relative harmony.
4) Le Pen and 1990's presidential candidate, Chirac regularly nurtured xenophobia against the French of N. African origin for political gain. After interior minister Sarkozy treated the young Beur as "slime", while promising to "Karcherize" the whole lot (think Bull Connor's fire hoses), the Jewish community voted overwhelmingly for him as president.
Now, that is an unfortunate sight; French Jews, standing behind the state, demanding even tougher police treatment against a minority that had already suffered state-encouraged discrimination for the preceding 10 years.
That included a national police heavily peopled by sympathizers of the National Front.
BTW: The Catholic churches in France are all property of the state.
some points:
1) I doubt anyone wants the Saudis to supply their funding.
2) In the late 1990's, Jean-Pierre Chevènement (ministre de l'Intérieur et des Cultes) brought French Islam under state management.
3) The tensions/racism between Sephardic and French of muslim descent is a two-way street with many complications rooted in colonial Algeria started in 1830. Before colonization these peoples lived in relative harmony.
4) Le Pen and 1990's presidential candidate, Chirac regularly nurtured xenophobia against the French of N. African origin for political gain. After interior minister Sarkozy treated the young Beur as "slime", while promising to "Karcherize" the whole lot (think Bull Connor's fire hoses), the Jewish community voted overwhelmingly for him as president.
Now, that is an unfortunate sight; French Jews, standing behind the state, demanding even tougher police treatment against a minority that had already suffered state-encouraged discrimination for the preceding 10 years.
That included a national police heavily peopled by sympathizers of the National Front.
BTW: The Catholic churches in France are all property of the state.
15
Essentially most French bourgeoisie and business owners voted for Sarkozy because Socialist legislation has been incredibly tough on business. There is no data I have seen to prove that Jewish socialists and communists abandoned the left for Sarkozy.
1
So the Muslims in France hate the Jews rather than the government that initiated those policies? And you conclude that French Jews voted for Sarkozy entirely because of his policies towards Muslims? That is quite a leap.
It's like saying all the Jews in the US voted for the Democrats because of their stand on Israel (which is pretty similar to the republicans, but never mind.) I'd say 90% of Jews voted for the Democrats because they are Democrats, and prefer their policies in general. Jews tend not to be single issue voters (unless, perhaps, they are Hasidic.)
It's like saying all the Jews in the US voted for the Democrats because of their stand on Israel (which is pretty similar to the republicans, but never mind.) I'd say 90% of Jews voted for the Democrats because they are Democrats, and prefer their policies in general. Jews tend not to be single issue voters (unless, perhaps, they are Hasidic.)
Ain't religion a wonderful thing!!
The world would be a far better place without organized religion. Then instead of hating because of worship of the wrong God, people can hate because a group of people parts their hair wrong!
Its always something, ain't it!!
The world would be a far better place without organized religion. Then instead of hating because of worship of the wrong God, people can hate because a group of people parts their hair wrong!
Its always something, ain't it!!
21
Gender, race, ethnicity, color and national origin are pretty wonderful too!
The more ways that we can differentiate ourselves into denying the other's membership in the one and only biological evolutionary DNA race the more blood, tears and sweat we can spill and shed.
If we are not brothers then "Am I my brother's keeper?" has no humane empathetic relevance nor resonance.
The more ways that we can differentiate ourselves into denying the other's membership in the one and only biological evolutionary DNA race the more blood, tears and sweat we can spill and shed.
If we are not brothers then "Am I my brother's keeper?" has no humane empathetic relevance nor resonance.
blackmamba and I seem to be the only two NYT commenters who are willing to accept that we are all members of only one race, the human, and the 100s of examples given by commenters suggesting that only their particular "race" is discriminated against are only showing either ignorance or tunnel vision.
That is why I try - without success - to get my American brothers and sisters to understand that racism in Europe (and the USA) takes an infinite variety of forms, each form based on the racist's or anti xist's belief that for some reason she is superior to the "other".
May I remind readers of one of many examples I could cite: There is a church in Isfahan, Iran created in a location where Iran took in Armenians who were being subjected to genocide. The interior of that church is truly beautiful and is still there in Isfahan for all of us to visit once Barack Obama establishes normal relations with Iran.
Those Iranians were indeed their brothers keepers.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
That is why I try - without success - to get my American brothers and sisters to understand that racism in Europe (and the USA) takes an infinite variety of forms, each form based on the racist's or anti xist's belief that for some reason she is superior to the "other".
May I remind readers of one of many examples I could cite: There is a church in Isfahan, Iran created in a location where Iran took in Armenians who were being subjected to genocide. The interior of that church is truly beautiful and is still there in Isfahan for all of us to visit once Barack Obama establishes normal relations with Iran.
Those Iranians were indeed their brothers keepers.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Your one remark "Islam is in crisis, a religion at war with itself", pretty well sums it up. Where is their leadership? Why have we not heard from people like Dalil Boubakeur publicly as opposed to remarks in private. Why are the voices that we hear at least in the West those of the leaders of Islamist terrorist groups. All we hear is the insanity of Al Qaeda, ISIS, Houthti, Boko Haram and every jihadist with a axe to grind. Where are the saner voices?
No people anywhere in the world want to be the unwilling victims of some religious groups idealogical battle and internal crisis. We in the West have permitted the importation of this Islamist conflict by allowing the immigration of millions of Muslims under the assumption that they will assimilate into our various western cultures. This has proven largely to be false especially in countries such as France that have high concentrations of Muslim immigrants. I have not been in France in over 25 years so I cannot speak from firsthand experience and thus rely upon media reporting. From this reporting it is easy to conclude that a large majority of these immigrants do not want to integrate and they wish to live in Muslim enclaves occupying another country but not embracing it as their own. These people fled their homelands for a reason, to escape the same terror and enjoy a better life. It is past time that these people stop fleeing and confront the extremism in their midst instead of blaming the West or the Jews or someone else.
No people anywhere in the world want to be the unwilling victims of some religious groups idealogical battle and internal crisis. We in the West have permitted the importation of this Islamist conflict by allowing the immigration of millions of Muslims under the assumption that they will assimilate into our various western cultures. This has proven largely to be false especially in countries such as France that have high concentrations of Muslim immigrants. I have not been in France in over 25 years so I cannot speak from firsthand experience and thus rely upon media reporting. From this reporting it is easy to conclude that a large majority of these immigrants do not want to integrate and they wish to live in Muslim enclaves occupying another country but not embracing it as their own. These people fled their homelands for a reason, to escape the same terror and enjoy a better life. It is past time that these people stop fleeing and confront the extremism in their midst instead of blaming the West or the Jews or someone else.
86
Dalil Boubakeur tells the same thing on French TVs and radios (over and over again) than he does to Mr Cohen. The vast majority of Muslims do not live in “Muslim enclaves”. In fact the vast majority is pretty much part of the mainstream French society (in particular, like the vast majority of Frenchmen they are not especially religious). The minority that turns towards a violent brand of Islam represents at most a few tens of thousands of individuals .That is more than enough to create a lot of trouble but it is the exception, not the rule.
1
It is painfully clear that you have studied little on French of N. African descent.
I can assure you that the first generation of N African youth born in France wanted nothing more than to be part of France,
Police oppression & job discrimination, since the early 1990's (the end of the post WWII economic boom) pushed this whole generation away.
I saw non-veiled 13 yr old girls with their school bags being harassed by the police.
It was no different than our treatment of the black.
Your view of the 'other' is nothing less than smug.
I can assure you that the first generation of N African youth born in France wanted nothing more than to be part of France,
Police oppression & job discrimination, since the early 1990's (the end of the post WWII economic boom) pushed this whole generation away.
I saw non-veiled 13 yr old girls with their school bags being harassed by the police.
It was no different than our treatment of the black.
Your view of the 'other' is nothing less than smug.
Muslims leaders do condemn terrorist activities. For some reason people don't read those or newspapers do not publish those comments. May be they are not exciting. Because people wants to hear negatives of Muslims/Islam. When people buy books from amazon.com about Islam, they like to buy books on negative aspects of Islam and Muslim!
I am not sure whether anybody want to hear positive things about Muslim or Islam.
I am not sure whether anybody want to hear positive things about Muslim or Islam.
2
"Islam is in crisis, a religion at war with itself. The West is a spectator to this internal conflict and a victim of it."
The West is also a participant.
The West has also manipulated that division, used it to control in classic divide and control behavior.
There is a good reason why colonies were created with strong minorities, which were then put in charge and kept there dependent on the outside power. That method never stopped, even when formal colonial status ended. France has been prominent in maintaining the old special relationships with former colonies.
More recently, the Sunni/Shiite split has been used, and amplified, by Western intervention, Iraq not least.
The West has a full share of this. When it comes home to France, it is coming back on those who helped do this.
To sit back now and say, "Oh, look at them and their divisions" is fundamentally dishonest.
The West is also a participant.
The West has also manipulated that division, used it to control in classic divide and control behavior.
There is a good reason why colonies were created with strong minorities, which were then put in charge and kept there dependent on the outside power. That method never stopped, even when formal colonial status ended. France has been prominent in maintaining the old special relationships with former colonies.
More recently, the Sunni/Shiite split has been used, and amplified, by Western intervention, Iraq not least.
The West has a full share of this. When it comes home to France, it is coming back on those who helped do this.
To sit back now and say, "Oh, look at them and their divisions" is fundamentally dishonest.
41
The sunni/shite split began in earnest in 637 ce. I don't think the west was involved.
3
Mark, this is a footnote to my main comment just accepted. What strikes me is just how few of the commenters seem to have any understanding of the history to which you refer. There is no way of knowing if they are aware of this history and simply reject it - dishonestly - or simply know only a small piece perhaps as concerns their own ethnic group.
Larry
Larry
Am I mistaken or is this the kind of thing Mr. Cohen has been unable to say for a very long time:
"The resolution of the crisis of Islam can only come through denunciation from within of the slaughterers — and recognition, rather than denial, of their Islamist inspiration."
"The resolution of the crisis of Islam can only come through denunciation from within of the slaughterers — and recognition, rather than denial, of their Islamist inspiration."
26
Given the recent absurd position of the Turks in response to the Pope's comments about Armenia and other attempts to deny that genocide, one can better understand why Holocaust denial should not be tolerated. But it is easy to empathize with muslims as to the one-sidedness of the law.
The interesting issue facing all of us at this moment in time is that millions of people seek to deny facts of all kinds - scientific, historical, psychological. This can surely be viewed, in part, as a colossal failure of education, especially in western countries that supposedly foster critical thought. How did our own founders pull off the 1st Amendment? A worthy piece of re-search.
The interesting issue facing all of us at this moment in time is that millions of people seek to deny facts of all kinds - scientific, historical, psychological. This can surely be viewed, in part, as a colossal failure of education, especially in western countries that supposedly foster critical thought. How did our own founders pull off the 1st Amendment? A worthy piece of re-search.
8
Grant,
First, I have no sympathy for the leader of Turkey.
Second, I question the term 'Genocide' when it comes to killings of Armenians.
To me, it was ethnic cleansing (a real crime, non-the-less). In the dying days of the Ottoman Empire, Europe was in the competitive colonization craze that was leading to WWI.
There was reason to believe that the Armenian population could facilitate an incursion by the Russians (or the English).
The irony of this history is that, at the fall of the Soviet Union, nationalist Armenians intended on expanding their territory (some militias wearing Nazi symbols) engaged in chasing out the Azeris from the Nagorno Karabakh (a region where the two peoples had lived in relative harmony for hundreds of years. At least 200,000 Azeris became refugies.
First, I have no sympathy for the leader of Turkey.
Second, I question the term 'Genocide' when it comes to killings of Armenians.
To me, it was ethnic cleansing (a real crime, non-the-less). In the dying days of the Ottoman Empire, Europe was in the competitive colonization craze that was leading to WWI.
There was reason to believe that the Armenian population could facilitate an incursion by the Russians (or the English).
The irony of this history is that, at the fall of the Soviet Union, nationalist Armenians intended on expanding their territory (some militias wearing Nazi symbols) engaged in chasing out the Azeris from the Nagorno Karabakh (a region where the two peoples had lived in relative harmony for hundreds of years. At least 200,000 Azeris became refugies.
The governor of Wisconsin has major financial backing from the energy industry. The owners of the coal powered plants do not want our government making laws that protect our air or water because it will reduce profits. Just a few weeks ago, our governor signed a law that bans employees of the State of Wisconsin from talking about climate change. This denying of facts is not just a massive failure of education. When someone's revenue stream is threatened, they will do everything to protect it. This includes making laws that forbid people from talking about scientific facts. Ignorance, greed and fear (with the emphasis on FEAR) drives this insanity.
" Islam is in crisis" not due to the followers of other religions but purely due to Muslims only because of sectarian killings.
There's no need whatsoever to pray either in mosques or on roads. Muslims can very well pray at home and the same is also applicable to all the followers of various religions.
It's the Muslims, who should mend their ways and not otherwise. Getting carried away either in the name of Prophet or in the name of Islam without truly understanding, following and implementing the sayings of Holy Koran in the real sense amounts only to childishness and nothing else. So let Muslims change for their own good.
There's no need whatsoever to pray either in mosques or on roads. Muslims can very well pray at home and the same is also applicable to all the followers of various religions.
It's the Muslims, who should mend their ways and not otherwise. Getting carried away either in the name of Prophet or in the name of Islam without truly understanding, following and implementing the sayings of Holy Koran in the real sense amounts only to childishness and nothing else. So let Muslims change for their own good.
31
"French laïcité is a passport to repress the rights of Muslims."
Laïcité is core to the French Constitution and should remain so. Perhaps, if you eschew a country's core values you should not choose to reside there.
Laïcité is core to the French Constitution and should remain so. Perhaps, if you eschew a country's core values you should not choose to reside there.
78
Perhaps laicite is not quite what its seems, when all the holidays are Catholic and only the sensitivities of Jews to free speech are protected by law.
Perhaps laicite would get more respect if it were more equal, consistent, and honest. Those who are treated worst by its claims like it least, so this suggests they ought to just leave. Yet they are there because France conquered their homes and declared them Frenchmen.
Perhaps laicite would get more respect if it were more equal, consistent, and honest. Those who are treated worst by its claims like it least, so this suggests they ought to just leave. Yet they are there because France conquered their homes and declared them Frenchmen.
6
Mark,
Just which particular Muslim societies grant the same rights to non-Muslims? Perhaps Muslims should look to their own societies first before they criticize other societies.
Just which particular Muslim societies grant the same rights to non-Muslims? Perhaps Muslims should look to their own societies first before they criticize other societies.
2
Mark, Holocaust denial has been banned in several countries in Europe as a way to take responsibility for the atrocities they allowed to their own people. Taking responsibility is the best way to prevent genocide from happening in the future and THE reason you don't see genocides popping up in France again. Jews say "never again", so that it never happens again in the world. In your home state, there is a Museum of Tolerance, created by the Jewish community to help in that endeavor. What are you doing to create tolerance, besides continually spouting intolerance against Jews? Clawson is a town devoid of Jews, Muslims or African Americans, because it would not be friendly to them. What are you doing to change that?
2
Such an excellent exemplar that validates the position of most atheists and agnostics I know: namely that religions have been, through the ages, and continue to be, in the postmodern world, the source of suspicion, discord, murder, and societal disruption.
22
Don't kid yourself that you can opt out of the hatred of others. The Nazis did not inquire of the Jews they murdered by the millions which of them truly believed in g-d and how often they went to shul. Many, many western Jews, especially Germans and French, who considered themselves fully assimilated, found that the Nazis, and even their supposed compatriots, didn't see things that way.
If your point is simply that religion is a source of discord, then please write back when you have something to say we all don't already know.
If your point is simply that religion is a source of discord, then please write back when you have something to say we all don't already know.
As an atheist I would argue that humanity will always find an excuse for this kind of stupidity
The comments on the French Muslims demand for new mosques display a certain mix of ignorance and racism.
some points:
1) I doubt anyone wants the Saudis to supply their funding.
2) In the late 1990's, Jean-Pierre Chevènement (ministre de l'Intérieur et des Cultes) brought French Islam under state management.
3) The tensions/racism between Sephardic and French of muslim descent is a two-way street with many complications rooted in colonial Algeria started in 1830. Before colonization these peoples lived in relative harmony.
4) Le Pen and 1990's presidential candidate, Chirac regularly nurtured xenophobia against the French of N. African origin for political gain. After interior minister Sarkozy treated the young Beur as "slime", while promising to "Karcherize" the whole lot (think Bull Connor's fire hoses), the Jewish community voted overwhelmingly for him as president.
Now, that is an ugly & stupid sight; French Jews, standing behind the state, demanding even tougher police treatment against a minority that had already suffered state-encouraged discrimination for the preceding 10 years.
That included a national police heavily peopled by sympathizers of the National Front.
some points:
1) I doubt anyone wants the Saudis to supply their funding.
2) In the late 1990's, Jean-Pierre Chevènement (ministre de l'Intérieur et des Cultes) brought French Islam under state management.
3) The tensions/racism between Sephardic and French of muslim descent is a two-way street with many complications rooted in colonial Algeria started in 1830. Before colonization these peoples lived in relative harmony.
4) Le Pen and 1990's presidential candidate, Chirac regularly nurtured xenophobia against the French of N. African origin for political gain. After interior minister Sarkozy treated the young Beur as "slime", while promising to "Karcherize" the whole lot (think Bull Connor's fire hoses), the Jewish community voted overwhelmingly for him as president.
Now, that is an ugly & stupid sight; French Jews, standing behind the state, demanding even tougher police treatment against a minority that had already suffered state-encouraged discrimination for the preceding 10 years.
That included a national police heavily peopled by sympathizers of the National Front.
3
I have little sympathy for the governments of the countries of north Africa taken control of by the French. It has to be remembered that these countries continued taking Europeans as slaves until suppressed by the French. Although reduced by the American and British/ Dutch attacks it continued until the French took control. It is generally estimated that between 1 and 2 million were enslaved.
1
This comment by Mr. Shanahan has been posted twice in the Comments section. Once is enough. (Where is your quality control?)
Cohen politely dances around the huge gap of false equivalence. Islamists and their sympathizers are not a small minority of Muslims, they are the majority. All the polls and all but a few elections in the Muslim world bear out this fact. In France, this community threatens and perpetrates real violence and intimidation such that Jews are forced to live barricaded and curtailed lives. While French Jews just want to be left alone and not be the target of wars of annihilation. Is it wrong to be afraid of a group that is harboring even promoting such violence?
121
While I agree for the most part with this argument I think it leaves out a major factor and that is Jewish support for the State of Israel and everything it does. In this you compare a historical fact the holocaust and the historical fact of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the continuing brutalization of its population. It is understandable the support many if not almost all Jews give to Israel even if they might disagree with its policies. The holocaust is a terrible history but it is history the Palestinian situation is ongoing and while there are significant Jewish people who oppose many of Israel's actions I cannot ever remember any of them suggesting that Israel should be sanctioned when it breaks international law or human rights. If you are a Muslin you see a group who share a religion and provide support for a state that brutally oppresses fellow Muslims often performing war crimes such as group punishment and land theft. There is no excuse for bigotry in the form of anti-Semitism or any other forms of hatreds but at the same time to not address the basis for this disease solves nothing.
1
If ranting about the Holocaust is so important for Muslims, they can leave France and emigrate to Syria, Libya, Iraq, Iran, Yemen or another Muslim nation where they will be unconstrained by French law.
226
Actually Muslims have not/do not deny the Holocaust. That seems to be the province of the French (le Pen) and the English and other far right groups.
P.C. has run its course. The largely secular French should not have to deal with the other's problematic religious ideologies in their own country.
41
What I believe most Muslims are sick of is having to try an assimilate or obey the laws of the west that they don't respect or agree with, nor will they ever place secular law over their religious laws. Mr. Cohen is wrong that political correctness is buried. In fact, it is only allowing the extreme fringe, the dangerous and violent fringe of Islam a place to hide and grow in our western society. Nobody sees Jews attacking and killing people in France or else were in the West. When was the last time someone in the UK or France or Belgium or Germany attacked and killed Muslims? If it has happened the media is keeping it very low key.
The problem is the vast cultural differences between the 21st century and the middle ages. They can't live in harmony together it appears. And perhaps right now they shouldn't. Europe and the West in general needs to reduce the influx of the 5th columnists who will eventually want to create an Islamic Europe instead of a secular one. We might as well turn the lights out all over the world then. We will be back in the middle ages just where the muslims want us to be.
The problem is the vast cultural differences between the 21st century and the middle ages. They can't live in harmony together it appears. And perhaps right now they shouldn't. Europe and the West in general needs to reduce the influx of the 5th columnists who will eventually want to create an Islamic Europe instead of a secular one. We might as well turn the lights out all over the world then. We will be back in the middle ages just where the muslims want us to be.
112
If what you say is true, then those Muslims who don't want to live in a country with laws based on a secular philosophy can choose to live elsewhere. Ditto non-Muslims of any stripe.
"When was the last time someone in the UK or France or Belgium or Germany attacked and killed Muslims?" About five minutes ago . . . whenever the most recent drone strike happened. The West has killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims in the past decade: Remember Iraq and Afghanistan?
Its all about Power. These large political groups called muslims, jews and christians have been at each other's throats for as long as they have been around. They have collectively and individually bastardized the word "religion", until it has become associated more with atrocity than altruism.
An outsider sees the economic roots of the ongoing strife being conducted in the name of "god" under their respective 'religious" banners. Frankly, its pretty embarrassing to humanity how such large numbers of people can involve themselves in competing nonsensical "beliefs" and perpetually kill each other to safeguard their "freedom of religion".
Religion is at war with itself (not just Islam). Perhaps we are witnessing the evolution of a concept that has outlived whatever usefulness it may have once had.
Ultimately, the conflicts can only be settled when the principals begin to actually "practice" their so called religions, than to use them as a front to exploit each other for economic advantage.
An outsider sees the economic roots of the ongoing strife being conducted in the name of "god" under their respective 'religious" banners. Frankly, its pretty embarrassing to humanity how such large numbers of people can involve themselves in competing nonsensical "beliefs" and perpetually kill each other to safeguard their "freedom of religion".
Religion is at war with itself (not just Islam). Perhaps we are witnessing the evolution of a concept that has outlived whatever usefulness it may have once had.
Ultimately, the conflicts can only be settled when the principals begin to actually "practice" their so called religions, than to use them as a front to exploit each other for economic advantage.
9
Intentionally or not, Mr. Cohen's article highlights two "rules" for immigration:
First, people should not immigrate to a country they dislike: "Many North African Muslims ... arrived in a country they detested ..." If you don't want to be in the country you immigrate to, you will never be happy there. If Algerians hate France, it makes no sense for them to immigrate there.
Second, people should not immigrate with the expectation that they can change the dominant culture. "Muslims don’t want to dilute themselves in this false assimilation and integration." One cannot immigrate into a Western country with the intention of imposing a new value system. As Mr. Cohen points out, generations of non-Muslims successfully integrated into France and other European countries with far fewer difficulties.
First, people should not immigrate to a country they dislike: "Many North African Muslims ... arrived in a country they detested ..." If you don't want to be in the country you immigrate to, you will never be happy there. If Algerians hate France, it makes no sense for them to immigrate there.
Second, people should not immigrate with the expectation that they can change the dominant culture. "Muslims don’t want to dilute themselves in this false assimilation and integration." One cannot immigrate into a Western country with the intention of imposing a new value system. As Mr. Cohen points out, generations of non-Muslims successfully integrated into France and other European countries with far fewer difficulties.
196
Pete,
You are referring to French citizens, many of whose ancestors fought in the trenches of WWI and in WWII.
It is (not) funny, that many of the blanket statements you make were made in this country about Jews in the fall-out of WWII.
You are referring to French citizens, many of whose ancestors fought in the trenches of WWI and in WWII.
It is (not) funny, that many of the blanket statements you make were made in this country about Jews in the fall-out of WWII.
2
It isn't about changing the dominant culture. It's about undermining and changing basic fundamental constitutions to fit a religion that is outside that culture and that national history. Trying to overthrow a constitution is a form of treason. The French like their constitutions; it's "their's."
1
While I personally agree with your point I will state three points that will explain this behavior:
1) Algerians emigrated to France because it was/is wealthier and they hoped to benefit from it. And at the point when they were emigrating they were not aware of how hard it would be it assimilate.
2) Algerians were colonized by the French ... and think of this as payback for the French.
3) Finally, unlike in the US where multiculturalism is accepted and even celebrated in most parts, French (and Western Europeans) are proud of their culture and tradition (understandably so) and can make alien / immigrant culture such as Algerian unwelcome, which of course leads to alienation among the immigrants.
1) Algerians emigrated to France because it was/is wealthier and they hoped to benefit from it. And at the point when they were emigrating they were not aware of how hard it would be it assimilate.
2) Algerians were colonized by the French ... and think of this as payback for the French.
3) Finally, unlike in the US where multiculturalism is accepted and even celebrated in most parts, French (and Western Europeans) are proud of their culture and tradition (understandably so) and can make alien / immigrant culture such as Algerian unwelcome, which of course leads to alienation among the immigrants.
The poor forgotten Catholic Christians. I guess they do not fit into this equation. I thought France was supposed to be a secular country. Guess not.
4
The irrationality of equating falsifying recent facts of history with questioning claims to be a prophet shows to what extent Islam is fundamentally incapable of assimilation in the West. One way of thinking or the other will prevail. One civilization will win over the other.
France exists only because Charles Martel drove the Muslims out. It was a close thing. This generation has chosen to undo that achievement and is risking selling there scanty progeny into submission. Perhaps the problem is that they just aren't invested in the future so why bother to face hard facts?
France exists only because Charles Martel drove the Muslims out. It was a close thing. This generation has chosen to undo that achievement and is risking selling there scanty progeny into submission. Perhaps the problem is that they just aren't invested in the future so why bother to face hard facts?
31
Let's not underestimate the reality in the rest of Europe. There have been chants to "gas the Jews" at soccer stadia in the Netherlands. Nominally pro-Palestinian demonstrations in Germany dance precariously on the edge of old time antisemitism. Even in the United Kingdom, Jews are coming to the realization that they, too, are in the cross-hairs.
Let's not rationalize or legitimize what is becoming commonplace. Germany happened not all that long ago, and it's clear there are those in Europe who would like to repeat the process. Dismiss it all you will, it's growing, not shrinking.
If all Jews are to be held to the same standard of right of survival to which Israel is held, will they also be condemned for defending their homes and their families? Or should they just throw up their hands now and make it easy for the extremists of Europe to have a convenient scapegoat?
This stuff is real time scary. There's not a lot of space between antisemitism and genocide. This we already know. But who is going to say it's "okay" for us to fight back? The way it's sounding in the op ed pages, in the comments section, and on social media, my guess is no one but us.
Never again.
http://wifelyperson.blogspot.com/
Let's not rationalize or legitimize what is becoming commonplace. Germany happened not all that long ago, and it's clear there are those in Europe who would like to repeat the process. Dismiss it all you will, it's growing, not shrinking.
If all Jews are to be held to the same standard of right of survival to which Israel is held, will they also be condemned for defending their homes and their families? Or should they just throw up their hands now and make it easy for the extremists of Europe to have a convenient scapegoat?
This stuff is real time scary. There's not a lot of space between antisemitism and genocide. This we already know. But who is going to say it's "okay" for us to fight back? The way it's sounding in the op ed pages, in the comments section, and on social media, my guess is no one but us.
Never again.
http://wifelyperson.blogspot.com/
104
Complacency. "It can never happen again." Baloney. Everyone, open your eyes. But, we don't need Zionists to help us realize the truth, and act accordingly.
1
Anti-Semitism is (allegedly) on the rise. Obviously, this is unsettling to Jews anywhere, just as (allegedly) rising Islamophobia is understandably unsettling to Muslims everywhere.
Rising anti-Semitism however does not mean that Jews are facing anything even remotely resembling the circumstances they did in Nazi Germany. Hitler was an outlier.
It's time to stop citing the Holocaust to justify the war-mongering of a - clandestinely - nuclear-armed Israel. Netanyahu is most likely promoting anti-Semitism, particularly after the Gaza bombings that left over 2,000 people dead last summer, most of whom were civilians, many of whom were children. Many Holocaust survivors came forward to criticize Netanyahu for the bombings and for Israel's treatment of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories.
In the same vein, it's time to stop labeling criminal, murderous acts of a few as representative of their religion. They are not.
Rising anti-Semitism however does not mean that Jews are facing anything even remotely resembling the circumstances they did in Nazi Germany. Hitler was an outlier.
It's time to stop citing the Holocaust to justify the war-mongering of a - clandestinely - nuclear-armed Israel. Netanyahu is most likely promoting anti-Semitism, particularly after the Gaza bombings that left over 2,000 people dead last summer, most of whom were civilians, many of whom were children. Many Holocaust survivors came forward to criticize Netanyahu for the bombings and for Israel's treatment of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories.
In the same vein, it's time to stop labeling criminal, murderous acts of a few as representative of their religion. They are not.
3
Sadly, you're right - about the terrifying reemergence of antisemistism and about the truly ugly nature of comment threads, even here, and the blogosphere which is downright brutal. I've seen comments, including Times featured comments, which are biased at least - and some are worse. They reflect both ignorance and hate.
I wish the Times editorial board would address this. Bigotry spreads one ugly comment at a time. It's certainly a subject worth attention. Antisemistism wasn't uncommon on small political blogs a decade ago but now it's common everywhere, and flaring openly in real time, and discussions about Israel are both frightening and absurd.
I wish the Times editorial board would address this. Bigotry spreads one ugly comment at a time. It's certainly a subject worth attention. Antisemistism wasn't uncommon on small political blogs a decade ago but now it's common everywhere, and flaring openly in real time, and discussions about Israel are both frightening and absurd.
7
Whilst I agree with Mr. Cohen that Islam is in crisis and at war with itself, it seems wrong to say that the West has had no role other than spectator or victim. Actions by the West, most notably the Iraq war, have surely made it harder for moderate Muslims to take on the extremists.
19
The actions by GB and France go back to WWI, really, divvying up the Arab nations however they chose, regardless of what the Arab inhabitants might have preferred. Ironically, some Arabs wanted the US involved at that time, but the prez said no.
1
I have been interacting with Muslim women from Sub Saharan Africa working with a Jewish woman I know and they are the sweetest, gentlest, most caring people I know. Her Judaism is not a problem for her and she enjoys learning about Islam. I think the problem is with a part of Islam rather than with Islam itself. The Muslims from the Middle East seem to be agitated about their own religious orthodoxy while women (and, they tell me) their men see Islam as natural, as part of the air they breathe.
6
In common with every other belief system, Islam is as Muslims do. Christianity went through its own period of extremism about 500 years ago. It proved untenable in the long term, which was very long indeed for its victims who included dissenters and nonbelievers alike. Any "cure" for Muslim extremism will come only from within the Islamic community. In the meantime it's time to begin questioning tolerance of any irrational belief system--Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Wikkan, you name it. All are in the same ship: the SS Make Believe.
17
Frankly, the Muslim complaint is that there are Jews in France. That is what the Muslims find most insulting. The Muslims came to be free of Jews and from a society that reviled Jews. They have brought their culture, their history and their revulsion of Jews with them. And they have also brought with them their so-called right to deny Jews freedom and the right to deny Jews the right to live in peace and dignity. Just the existence of Jews in France is proof that France and the French are intolerant of Muslims and disrespectful of Muslim belief that the Jews are an affront to Muslims and must be destroyed.
The Muslims and Islamic radicals who wish to destroy the Jews are not in crisis. They are not at war with themselves either. The Muslims are at war with the people of France and the Jews of France. The Muslims will not disavow the slaughterers nor give recognition to the rights of others. And the Muslims will not go away.
This is more than denial of the Holocaust. It is not about free speech. This is a crisis of crime. It is a crisis of violence. And it is a crisis of murder approved by religious zealots of the Muslim faith. That is the recognition and inspiration that must be attributed. To do less is denial of the real cause of this not so new barbarism against freedom in France and the Jewish citizens of France. The enemy is radical Muslim Islamists. Recognize that.
The Muslims and Islamic radicals who wish to destroy the Jews are not in crisis. They are not at war with themselves either. The Muslims are at war with the people of France and the Jews of France. The Muslims will not disavow the slaughterers nor give recognition to the rights of others. And the Muslims will not go away.
This is more than denial of the Holocaust. It is not about free speech. This is a crisis of crime. It is a crisis of violence. And it is a crisis of murder approved by religious zealots of the Muslim faith. That is the recognition and inspiration that must be attributed. To do less is denial of the real cause of this not so new barbarism against freedom in France and the Jewish citizens of France. The enemy is radical Muslim Islamists. Recognize that.
156
Historically, Jews and Muslims lived well together most of the time throughout history. So while the current situation is dangerous, let's not rewrite things. The flowering of Jewish culture in Spain occurred under Moorish rule.
Jews historically have been most at risk under Christian rule. And murdered in the millions by Christians, not Muslims.
Yes, the antagonism is there now, but the statement could be misinterpreted to mean historically.
By the way, I went to Morocco just prior to the invasion of Iraq, and it was clearly coming. I found no anti-Semitism. I found an open welcome as a Jew. Then again, many of the Moroccans are Berbers, and only nominally Muslim.
Jews historically have been most at risk under Christian rule. And murdered in the millions by Christians, not Muslims.
Yes, the antagonism is there now, but the statement could be misinterpreted to mean historically.
By the way, I went to Morocco just prior to the invasion of Iraq, and it was clearly coming. I found no anti-Semitism. I found an open welcome as a Jew. Then again, many of the Moroccans are Berbers, and only nominally Muslim.
6
"The Muslims came [to France] to be free of Jews. . ." A statement so obviously wrong it is absurd.
1
You are claiming, in effect, that this hostility has nothing to do with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Dishonest rubbish.
"The five million Muslims of France and the 500,000 Jews of France eye each other with unease. "
I could be mistaken, and at risk of opening Pandora’s box, I wonder why Muslims would NOT look upon the Jews with some unease. Jews have worn the mantle of “the oppressed” and seem to have no hesitation in reminding us all, perhaps not unreasonably, of the Holocaust and the collective burden of responsibility we must carry. But isn’t it time to stop the guilt tripping. Our world today and our newspaper headlines, even as I write this letter, are filled with atrocities – the slave trafficking from North Africa to Europe, Syrian refugees, Isis led beheadings of Christians – and many, many more too numerous to list. Jews will rightly point to the Holocaust numbers (I know, it’s not just a question of numbers!), but really, isn’t it time that Jews and the Israeli state stopped bullying, both in a mental sense, and in a physical sense. I would ask Mr Cukierman the President of the Representative Council of Jewish Institutions in France, does the French taxpayer pay for the additional police protection of the Jewish schools and synagogues, and who foots the bill for the bullet proof cars and the police escorts for the Jewish leaders. I would ask, is it not time for the leaders to assume LEADERSHIP roles perhaps, and to recognize that resentments flourish when the playing field is definitively not level, and elitism and privilege are displayed so ostentatiously?
I could be mistaken, and at risk of opening Pandora’s box, I wonder why Muslims would NOT look upon the Jews with some unease. Jews have worn the mantle of “the oppressed” and seem to have no hesitation in reminding us all, perhaps not unreasonably, of the Holocaust and the collective burden of responsibility we must carry. But isn’t it time to stop the guilt tripping. Our world today and our newspaper headlines, even as I write this letter, are filled with atrocities – the slave trafficking from North Africa to Europe, Syrian refugees, Isis led beheadings of Christians – and many, many more too numerous to list. Jews will rightly point to the Holocaust numbers (I know, it’s not just a question of numbers!), but really, isn’t it time that Jews and the Israeli state stopped bullying, both in a mental sense, and in a physical sense. I would ask Mr Cukierman the President of the Representative Council of Jewish Institutions in France, does the French taxpayer pay for the additional police protection of the Jewish schools and synagogues, and who foots the bill for the bullet proof cars and the police escorts for the Jewish leaders. I would ask, is it not time for the leaders to assume LEADERSHIP roles perhaps, and to recognize that resentments flourish when the playing field is definitively not level, and elitism and privilege are displayed so ostentatiously?
13
You are, as your opening disclaimer says, mistaken.
Since Jews were liberated from the mass extermination planned for them they are able to protect themselves from those still intent on their destruction as a people and a state. You call them bullies? Better to be a bully than wiped off the face of the earth as many still hope to accomplish.
Since Jews were liberated from the mass extermination planned for them they are able to protect themselves from those still intent on their destruction as a people and a state. You call them bullies? Better to be a bully than wiped off the face of the earth as many still hope to accomplish.
7
us01220, it is indeed unfortunate that French taxpayers (presumably and probably) foot the bill to provide protection for Jewish schools and synagogues. The reason, in part, is so that they are not butchered while doing things as anodyne as grocery shopping, which is also presumably a protection that their own status as taxpayers should afford them. Resentment borne from a perception that another group is privileged or part of an elite, while posing no threat to the perpetrator other than wounded pride is no justification for homocidal acts of violence. Surely you can acknowledge this.
8
Remembrance of the Holocaust is not a tribute to Jews, who are largely gone from Europe anyway. The Holocaust demonstrated the vast potential for both Evil and Good within the entire humanity. It is not merely about the victims, the perpetrators, or the few heroes who risked (and often gave) their own lives to protect the helpless. Few will deny that the same Evil continues today. The Holocaust is a warning to all people, Muslim including, how far Evil can go. It is not about any guilt tripping. All humans are capable to follow their worst impulses. The Holocaust makes one stop and wonder what would you have done and what are you doing today?
11
It's more difficult to identify a culture of intolerance and exclusion from behind one's own curtain. The Republican Party is learning this very lesson here in the US presently.
http://lifeamongtheordinary.blogspot.com/2012/12/tolerance-and-inclusion...
http://lifeamongtheordinary.blogspot.com/2012/12/tolerance-and-inclusion...
4
There is no moral equivalency, despite how the author frames it, between French Muslims, who in recent years have butchered Jews at schools and grocery stores and tortured others for sport and money, and French Jews, who have....done nothing remotely equivalent to French Muslims, only understandably fear them and their ideology. Any of the anti-Muslim acts listed in the piece were committed by non-Jewish French, not Jews. So any Muslim grievances should be directed at French society in general, not against its Jews. And the anti-Muslim acts in the piece do not compare to those committed against French Jews (yes, Muslims are forced to pray in the street, but if French Jews ever did the same, they would be abused and very possibly attacked -- this says it all). This is not a clash between two population groups with competing claims against each other, but a one-sided campaign of aggression and violence by one group (French Muslims) against the other (French Jews).
228
Gaza, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Tunisia, West Bank, East Jerusalem, Golan Heights...How many French Jews have joined the Israel Defense Force?
Neither Barbie nor Petain were Muslims. Vichy was not a Muslim entity. Neither Nazi Germany nor the Soviet Union were Muslim states. Neither Hitler nor Stalin were Muslims. The Holocaust was not perpetrated by Muslims.
France has nuclear weapons and played a key role in the Christian/Muslim Arab Palestinian Catastrophe arising from the partition of Palestine in addition to proliferating nuclear weapons technology to Israel. French Roman Catholic imperialism violence and terror has been employed against Muslims (Algeria and Mali), Buddhists (Vietnam and Cambodia), Protestants ( Europe) and Blacks (Haiti, Dominican Republic and Louisiana).
Neither Barbie nor Petain were Muslims. Vichy was not a Muslim entity. Neither Nazi Germany nor the Soviet Union were Muslim states. Neither Hitler nor Stalin were Muslims. The Holocaust was not perpetrated by Muslims.
France has nuclear weapons and played a key role in the Christian/Muslim Arab Palestinian Catastrophe arising from the partition of Palestine in addition to proliferating nuclear weapons technology to Israel. French Roman Catholic imperialism violence and terror has been employed against Muslims (Algeria and Mali), Buddhists (Vietnam and Cambodia), Protestants ( Europe) and Blacks (Haiti, Dominican Republic and Louisiana).
1
Oh please, Black Mamba. The Palestinian plight is largely self imposed. Muslims threw millions of Jews out of Muslim societies and now dare complain they have settled in Israel.
4
Anti-Semitism is a hallmark of most of Europe, including France. If President Obama can have a plan to provide jobs and a pathway toward citizenship for 5 million illegals living in America, why can't the president allow as many persecuted French Jews as possible into the United States?
27
Richard--Yup, I'd support that proposition, if they would find it desirable.
6
Maybe because French Jews are not persecuted.
5
This is strange. Seems like everyone views fleeing to the U.S. as the solution to their problems. Don't you guys read the papers? Anti - [fill in the blank] is as alive and present here in the states, as it is everywhere else.
Those of us who live in the states have two important advantages that lead to the appearance of relative peaceful coexistence. First, we have access to LOTS OF LAND in comparison to what is available in Europe and Asia. The second advantage is that we are Capitalists.
Capitalism, for all of it's faults, gets at a core problem that people everywhere must deal with. It is simple. If you fail to get along with people, you are not going to make any money.
So, we capitalists know how to put on a good face and say all the right words so we can be effective in trading goods and services for money. Crude and fraught with problems, Capitalism has it's virtues. While I tend towards socialism when it comes to helping the poor, elderly, and sick and when it comes to educating the young, I have to admit that a system that encourages and rewards good behavior is attractive.
Those of us who live in the states have two important advantages that lead to the appearance of relative peaceful coexistence. First, we have access to LOTS OF LAND in comparison to what is available in Europe and Asia. The second advantage is that we are Capitalists.
Capitalism, for all of it's faults, gets at a core problem that people everywhere must deal with. It is simple. If you fail to get along with people, you are not going to make any money.
So, we capitalists know how to put on a good face and say all the right words so we can be effective in trading goods and services for money. Crude and fraught with problems, Capitalism has it's virtues. While I tend towards socialism when it comes to helping the poor, elderly, and sick and when it comes to educating the young, I have to admit that a system that encourages and rewards good behavior is attractive.
45
Why does this all sound like 732 AD, the Battle of Tours and the decisive conflict that arrested the advance of Islam in Europe? Probably because to some it’s the same thing by another, somewhat less sanguinary means.
As to Jews, whether it’s Muslims suspecting them or Christians suspecting them, suspicion and hatred of them generally have been the twin hobbies of Europeans for ages. That a few more hate them who happen to call themselves Muslim doesn’t alter the reality all that much.
But here’s the difference: Jews in France are thoroughly westernized, while Muslims are not; and their culture-within-a-culture is highly resistant to adaptation to reflect the boundaries of a community they wish to join. Yet, France has been among the vanguard of societies that evangelized multiculturalism, which holds that diversity ought to be celebrated. Diversity this headstrong apparently wasn’t considered.
The issue isn’t Muslims and Jews on the Seine. The issue is whether we’re headed for another Tours, or whether French Muslims can adapt their worldview to something more amenable to coexistence with the West.
As to Jews, whether it’s Muslims suspecting them or Christians suspecting them, suspicion and hatred of them generally have been the twin hobbies of Europeans for ages. That a few more hate them who happen to call themselves Muslim doesn’t alter the reality all that much.
But here’s the difference: Jews in France are thoroughly westernized, while Muslims are not; and their culture-within-a-culture is highly resistant to adaptation to reflect the boundaries of a community they wish to join. Yet, France has been among the vanguard of societies that evangelized multiculturalism, which holds that diversity ought to be celebrated. Diversity this headstrong apparently wasn’t considered.
The issue isn’t Muslims and Jews on the Seine. The issue is whether we’re headed for another Tours, or whether French Muslims can adapt their worldview to something more amenable to coexistence with the West.
138
Richard--Excellent comment. Thanks!
4
Neither Haiti nor Vietnam nor Cambodia nor Mali nor Algeria nor Palestine nor Senegal nor Louisiana nor Russia can vouch for any French commitment to universal plural egalitarian multicultural democracy. The French Arab Muslims come from the French Empire.
Adapting to Western worldviews and norms has not worked out to well for the Jews in pagan, Roman Catholic, Orthodox nor Protestant Europe. French Catholic crusaders and inquisitors were as viciously anti-Semitic as their Iberian peninsula Spanish and Portuguese Catholic compatriots.
The issue is whether or not white European Christian supremacist bigotry can be curbed so that practice, policy and reality matches rhetoric.
Adapting to Western worldviews and norms has not worked out to well for the Jews in pagan, Roman Catholic, Orthodox nor Protestant Europe. French Catholic crusaders and inquisitors were as viciously anti-Semitic as their Iberian peninsula Spanish and Portuguese Catholic compatriots.
The issue is whether or not white European Christian supremacist bigotry can be curbed so that practice, policy and reality matches rhetoric.
Europe was in the middle of it's barbarian Dark Age in 732 A.D. during the Battle of Tours. While the Islamic world was preserving and building upon the classical past in science, technology and the liberal arts.
Europe is near the end of it's second barbarian dark age stained and marred by colonial exploitation of human and natural resources including slavery and native genocide. The Renaissance, Enlightenment and Reformation were all intended only for the benefit of white European Christians.
The issue is whether or not this is the illiberal bigoted hegemonic France of King Louis XVI, Robespierre, Napoleon, Petain and De Gaulle
Europe is near the end of it's second barbarian dark age stained and marred by colonial exploitation of human and natural resources including slavery and native genocide. The Renaissance, Enlightenment and Reformation were all intended only for the benefit of white European Christians.
The issue is whether or not this is the illiberal bigoted hegemonic France of King Louis XVI, Robespierre, Napoleon, Petain and De Gaulle
What holocaust denials and insults about the Prophet Muhammad have in common is respect for others. Muslims are simply asking to have their important, core beliefs respected. Unfortunately, those beliefs clash with the West's belief of freedom of speech and an "anything goes" mentality. In many Muslim countries, it is illegal to blaspheme the Prophet. None of us would feel comfortable, I would venture to say, if a strongly-held belief was regularly and publicly ridiculed, so it is understandable that, in this case, Muslims are upset.
In dealing with people from a variety of cultures, it is important to realize that others often have a completely contrasting experience and world view, so disparate that cookie-cutter solutions don't apply. Arguing that they simply need to adapt and change isn't helpful. Nobody likes change, and it occurs in individuals only slowly over time. Understanding and tolerance are the keys here. People need to get to know each other on a personal level, see how much they have in common and discuss their differing viewpoints calmly. When we get past stereotypes and down to personal relationships, minds change.
People all over the world need to learn to be tolerant and respectful of others and to simply talk to each other as human beings. I would challenge NYT readers without any Muslim friends or colleagues to get to know someone of the Muslim faith and have an open, considerate dialogue. You might be surprised by what you learn.
In dealing with people from a variety of cultures, it is important to realize that others often have a completely contrasting experience and world view, so disparate that cookie-cutter solutions don't apply. Arguing that they simply need to adapt and change isn't helpful. Nobody likes change, and it occurs in individuals only slowly over time. Understanding and tolerance are the keys here. People need to get to know each other on a personal level, see how much they have in common and discuss their differing viewpoints calmly. When we get past stereotypes and down to personal relationships, minds change.
People all over the world need to learn to be tolerant and respectful of others and to simply talk to each other as human beings. I would challenge NYT readers without any Muslim friends or colleagues to get to know someone of the Muslim faith and have an open, considerate dialogue. You might be surprised by what you learn.
37
Disagree.
Muslims, Jews, and everyone for that matter need to understand that the freedom of expression is deemed a fundamental right in Western society. It is not us Westerners who must change to accommodate sensitive immigrants. The immigrants themselves must accept that in the West, we value the right to speak our minds, even if it offends others' sensibilities.
Muslims, Jews, and everyone for that matter need to understand that the freedom of expression is deemed a fundamental right in Western society. It is not us Westerners who must change to accommodate sensitive immigrants. The immigrants themselves must accept that in the West, we value the right to speak our minds, even if it offends others' sensibilities.
23
Public ridicule would make "my people" (i.e. non-believers) very, very happy. It would assure us that people are actually using their heads for something other than a hat rack. Religionists reject criticism and knowledge, often violently, because it challenges their power and authority, which is so much more important to them than "love of God."
5
Whenever someone says "I just want to have my core beliefs respected" you know that's absolutely not true. The easiest way to prove it? Respect their core beliefs. Then they'll show you they were lying when they tell you what they REALLY want.
We see it every day in America with conservative Christians.
We see it every day in America with conservative Christians.
"The resolution of the crisis of Islam can only come through denunciation from within of the slaughterers — and recognition, rather than denial, of their Islamist inspiration."
The West can help too -- by pointing out that faith implies uncertainty, that Mohammed was not necessarily a prophet, and that therefore to call him so is an act of idol-worship. A good place to start perhaps is to read the book called "The Pitfall of Truth: Holy War, its Rationale and Folly" or to visit the site, www.rootoutterrorism.com
The West can help too -- by pointing out that faith implies uncertainty, that Mohammed was not necessarily a prophet, and that therefore to call him so is an act of idol-worship. A good place to start perhaps is to read the book called "The Pitfall of Truth: Holy War, its Rationale and Folly" or to visit the site, www.rootoutterrorism.com
6
A good place to start is by questioning the ego of anyone who claims to know and talk to "God," and then let you know what the "rules" will be. Such true arrogance is certainly not spiritually uplifting, but rather enslaving, and soul killing.
6
"pointing out that faith implies uncertainty, that Mohammed was not necessarily a prophet, and that therefore to call him so is an act of idol-worship."
this is a centuries old Christian argument. Incredible the attitudes that prevailed at the dawn of Islam, still capture the imagination of many today.
this is a centuries old Christian argument. Incredible the attitudes that prevailed at the dawn of Islam, still capture the imagination of many today.
If there are 10 Muslims for every Jew in France, why are the Muslims looking at the Jews nervously?
188
Typical Roger Cohen. Always finding excuses for Muslim terrorists.
41
Please explain where you got that from, since I don't see it.
You said it all in the penultimate paragraph. Allah-fearing Moslems in the Middle East are more afraid of the consequences of speaking out than of having the courage to do so. Moslems in Indonesia, Bangladesh, India, and elsewhere are also strangely silent, feeling perhaps that this is not their quarrel or perhaps even wondering how such a feud can be carried on for such a long time. Perhaps this is because of the peculiarities of the Arab and Iranian mindset, perhaps not.
18
The difference is that Muslims are perpetrating crimes against Jews in France. Jews are NOT attacking Muslims or, as Cohen seems to imply, putting them in Ghettos or anything else against them, really. That's why Jews are leaving, while Muslims are not. If Muslims have complaints against the French government, it has nothing to do with Jews. A Muslim can walk down the street in religious garb and not be harassed because of his/her religion. A Jew cannot. It is NOT equal. It is NOT the same. This article is an outrage.
15
I would whole heartedly agree. Yet why do we Americans fear our own government and put up with inequality and abuse of our Bill of Rights. Why are we so timid at denading fair play, equal treatment and equal opportunity.
Death to Muslims is never the cry
I'd like to say by the by.
I truly hate
This perilous state
Are there Muslims there who really try?
I'd like to say by the by.
I truly hate
This perilous state
Are there Muslims there who really try?
18
You obviously don't know any Muslims. While their excesses are abominable and should be crushed harshly without exception always, I can think of no grouping of human beings that has been more stepped on and exploited by the west in my lifetime than the common people of Islam. Not even close. Yes, of course, we can never forget the Holocaust but for many Jews - forgive me but this is simply a truth - it has become something of a sinecure, a means of always having an excuse to be The Victim; I even hear it in arguments about taking Palestinian land, in justifying insult to my president, in explaining the lack of need to express gratitude for American aid in money & blood. There is an exceptionalism that has grown out of it.
Truly, to any observant person, it is a perilous state.
Truly, to any observant person, it is a perilous state.
3
"Death to Muslims is never the cry"
I've seen bumper stickers around here that say, "The only good Arab is a dead Arab." They've all been on pickup trucks, as I recall.
I've seen bumper stickers around here that say, "The only good Arab is a dead Arab." They've all been on pickup trucks, as I recall.
3
RC writes, correctly, that Islamists complain that it is illegal to question the Holocaust but not illegal to insult the Prophet. Sectarian bigots tend to think like that—illogically. It is not illegal to insult Jews or the Holocaust, only to deny the historical realities. Charlie Hebdo pulled few punches in mocking Jews.
Otherwise, much of what RC writes applies in America. Immigration worked here, however roughly for some groups. It doesn’t work today, particularly for Hispanics: it’s another hypocritically politicized issue by the GOP many of whose supporters benefit from cheap labor.
Violence is on the increase across Islam, while dissatisfaction is on the increase in the Western World. Racism has been naked at soccer matches for years, in Italy, for example, but now, anti-Semitism also pollutes the stands, e.g., in Holland. Nativist parties grow stronger in politics, with the Farages and Le Pens hoping to share power. The Tea Party already has power in America. At the same time, while Americans denounce the vicious acts of ISIS, the loudest complaints of sectarian bigots here are about the treatment of Christians, as if the mass murder of Muslims is acceptable.
Otherwise, much of what RC writes applies in America. Immigration worked here, however roughly for some groups. It doesn’t work today, particularly for Hispanics: it’s another hypocritically politicized issue by the GOP many of whose supporters benefit from cheap labor.
Violence is on the increase across Islam, while dissatisfaction is on the increase in the Western World. Racism has been naked at soccer matches for years, in Italy, for example, but now, anti-Semitism also pollutes the stands, e.g., in Holland. Nativist parties grow stronger in politics, with the Farages and Le Pens hoping to share power. The Tea Party already has power in America. At the same time, while Americans denounce the vicious acts of ISIS, the loudest complaints of sectarian bigots here are about the treatment of Christians, as if the mass murder of Muslims is acceptable.
35
Des Johnson, your comment about immigration not working today for Hispanics is partially true but lacks historical context. Virtually every ethnic or nationality group that has arrived in this country has faced discrimination in the first generation or two. This is an ugly reality about the U.S., but the fact remains that eventually we absorbed all these groups and prejudice against them declined or disappeared. I live in a state heavily populated by Hispanics, and while prejudice remains, it is far milder than when I was a child. In this nation of immigrants there is always hope for the future.
4
Immigration works in America if you follow the rules. Rule number one: Come here legally. Number two: Don't expect the citizens of this country to learn your language= You adapt to the country, the country doesn't adapt to you. We have changed the language in the US. An immigrant was a person who came here legally with all the i's dotted and the t's crossed. A person who stays here without permission is an illegal alien. The Tea Party has power? Yup, in the minds of the trendy left wingers on Manhattan's upper West Side.
5
Unless we're native Americans, none of us are here legally. It's only the native population that has the right to decide who is legal and who is not. And speaking of language, the first language spoken here, other than the language of the native tribes was Spanish, not English. I am not from the West Side, upper or lower, nor am I trendy, just resentful of people like Mortarman who twist and twist, until the truth is turned upside down.
3
"The five million Muslims of France and the 500,000 Jews of France eye each other with unease. "
I understand, as you stated, why Jews, some of whom were killed by Muslims and others, as documented by videos, are insulted daily, or worse, again by Muslims,. But why do Muslims eye Jews with unease?
I understand, as you stated, why Jews, some of whom were killed by Muslims and others, as documented by videos, are insulted daily, or worse, again by Muslims,. But why do Muslims eye Jews with unease?
199
Because Muhammed felt personally insulted when his Jewish friends mocked his claims. That's when he put a lot of trash talk in the Koran about how awful Jews were and about how mocking him was the worst thing in the world to do, punishable by death. He was an insecure dude. It's a tragedy.
25
Maybe because of the way the Israelies treat the Palestinians.
2
By that logic, Barbara, given how Muslim societies treat non-Muslims, all of us should have far greater reason to fear Muslims.
4
Holocaust denial has a special status in France, which in all other ways values freedom of speech, because "those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it."
107
Those who question this special status are evidently not knowledgeable about the second world war. As if history just started on the day they were born.
4
Holocaust denial also has a special status in France because of the attitudes of Mr. Jean-Marie Le Pen, the long time leader of the Front National - the right wing racist political party, now led by his daughter, Marine Le Pen. The 85 year old Jean-Marie cannot shut up: his position that the holocaust was a "detail of history" means what ? Just a bit of excess, by some over enthusiastic nationalists ? You end up with a legal condemnation of "holocaust denial" when people like Le Pen disturb political tranquillity and rational discussion by taking such outrageous positions ...
6
For heaven's sake, don't give anyone ideas.
13
No, for OUR sake, don't give them anything but the facts.
"Muslims complain that questioning the Holocaust is forbidden by law but insulting the Prophet Muhammad is not."
The Holocaust was a historic event; calling someone a "prophet" is a statement of religious belief. Muhammad lived, but was he a "prophet"? Jesus probably was a real person too; calling him "the Christ" is a statement of religious belief. Moses probably was real, and perhaps he did create a set of commandments; did he get those commandments from a deity, and did he part the Red (or Reed) Sea?
If we can't separate fact from faith, we are doomed as a species.
(Really? They want another 2000 mosques? And really, Mike Huckabee wants to be President? Again?)
The Holocaust was a historic event; calling someone a "prophet" is a statement of religious belief. Muhammad lived, but was he a "prophet"? Jesus probably was a real person too; calling him "the Christ" is a statement of religious belief. Moses probably was real, and perhaps he did create a set of commandments; did he get those commandments from a deity, and did he part the Red (or Reed) Sea?
If we can't separate fact from faith, we are doomed as a species.
(Really? They want another 2000 mosques? And really, Mike Huckabee wants to be President? Again?)
252
This commenter, B. doesn't say why denial of a fact by some who do not believe it should be a violation of law.
Problem is: To Muslims, faith IS a fact!
5
Islam is a fact. It exists. No amount of false equivalences can change that.
1
Someone please explain the complaint about lack of mosques. How is this the responsibility or fault of the state? Are they not permitted to be created? American cities are dotted with storefront churches of all stripes. Can't Muslims make prayer spaces in any vacant parking lot, apartment, storefront, etc. they can buy or rent? It is annoying to this secularist that our religious space are tax exempt, but is this the case in France as well? Surely they don't expect the state to build the equivalent of Notre Dame for them. That is an era long gone.
204
Apparently many French Muslims think local authorities block applications to build new mosques.
5
France is filled with empty churches due to the dwindling number of church going Christians. These churches nevertheless receive tax breaks and government grants for their maintenance. The amount of government money available to set up mosques is very small and much harder to obtain.
I include a quotation from the NY Times of Feb. 25, 2015:
"Laïcité was formalized in the 1905 law, which since has meant that churches and synagogues built previously are state property and maintained by public funds. But Islam came later, mosques get no state funding, and the state has struggled to apply laïcité to public schools, beaches and sports halls. (Alsace-Lorraine, German in 1905, operates under the Napoleonic Concordat that allows religious education but does not include Islam among the religions that are studied.)"
Thus, churches and synagogues built before 1905 are maintained by the state, but mosques, built later, do not get public funding. Islamic groups that want to build mosques with private funding find that getting permits to build a mosque is difficult, mainly because of public opposition by people who do not want minarets on their skyline, amplified calls to prayer several times a day, or a gathering place for people they find a threat to their idea of how life should be.
"Laïcité was formalized in the 1905 law, which since has meant that churches and synagogues built previously are state property and maintained by public funds. But Islam came later, mosques get no state funding, and the state has struggled to apply laïcité to public schools, beaches and sports halls. (Alsace-Lorraine, German in 1905, operates under the Napoleonic Concordat that allows religious education but does not include Islam among the religions that are studied.)"
Thus, churches and synagogues built before 1905 are maintained by the state, but mosques, built later, do not get public funding. Islamic groups that want to build mosques with private funding find that getting permits to build a mosque is difficult, mainly because of public opposition by people who do not want minarets on their skyline, amplified calls to prayer several times a day, or a gathering place for people they find a threat to their idea of how life should be.
2
Roger, the false equivalencies here are astounding.
The Holocaust happened. There can be no denying this - and to deny authentic history is a sin against civilization.
On the other hand, critiquing a prophet who has been dead some 1,400 years, and who hence cannot possibly take offense or suffer injury from such a critique - and who said a great many things in his lifetime, quite a number of which have been used by zealots ever since, perhaps out of context, as a rationale for conquest, murder, mayhem, and despotism is not a sin against civilization, but something closer to a sacrament.
Great civilizations grow through vigorously critiquing their pasts - as opposing to honoring them to such an extent that it chokes all life out of the present.
In the West, we must be free to critique, even ridicule, Mohammed, Jesus, Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Paul, Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, or any revered figure in any area of life so long as it leads to the growth of our societies. Muslims may be uncomfortable with this notion - but their lack of comfort with this level of intellectual freedom may be why their native nations appear so backwards and comfortable with authoritarianism.
Even if one accepts The Koran as some kind of inspired revelation, it is revelation of a time long gone, never to be revisited. If God is truly God, then It is not wounded by honest critiques of archaic traditions that keep human beings in the 21st century tethered to a often barbarous past.
The Holocaust happened. There can be no denying this - and to deny authentic history is a sin against civilization.
On the other hand, critiquing a prophet who has been dead some 1,400 years, and who hence cannot possibly take offense or suffer injury from such a critique - and who said a great many things in his lifetime, quite a number of which have been used by zealots ever since, perhaps out of context, as a rationale for conquest, murder, mayhem, and despotism is not a sin against civilization, but something closer to a sacrament.
Great civilizations grow through vigorously critiquing their pasts - as opposing to honoring them to such an extent that it chokes all life out of the present.
In the West, we must be free to critique, even ridicule, Mohammed, Jesus, Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Paul, Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, or any revered figure in any area of life so long as it leads to the growth of our societies. Muslims may be uncomfortable with this notion - but their lack of comfort with this level of intellectual freedom may be why their native nations appear so backwards and comfortable with authoritarianism.
Even if one accepts The Koran as some kind of inspired revelation, it is revelation of a time long gone, never to be revisited. If God is truly God, then It is not wounded by honest critiques of archaic traditions that keep human beings in the 21st century tethered to a often barbarous past.
326
Jesus has been dead for 2000 years. Go ahead, ridicule Jesus in Arkansas and see how far that gets you.
1
I find the premise that Muslims alone fail to evolve or "grow through vigorously critiquing their past" to be dishonest and contrived. Jews base their right to the land they call Israel on Biblical promises from God that this is indeed their land. How is this not "backwards" - is the Torah not "a revelation of a time long gone?" In fact, maintaining the victimization of Jews because of the Holocaust is in a perverted way "honoring their past to such an extent that it chokes all life out of the present." Sad but what you write applies to Jews.
3
Mimi, I have been a brutal critic of Israel, so please don't confuse me with its right wing defenders. But I am simply done with Muslims expecting kid gloves treatment for their Prophet and "revelation", in an era in which every historical figure is fair game - and deserves to be. And I regularly offer the very same criticism to fundamentalists and traditionalists of every religious persuasion.
6
The distinction is not to protect the faith or history of muslims or jews, the distinction is the willingness to commit an homicide. You may disparage the holocaust, and a lot of people do, but no jew will kill you for that. This argumentation that jews are privileged is simply nonsense, they just don't go wild, so it just looks like they are less affected.
We had a religious motivated homicide of a dozen boat people in the mediterranean last week, just because they were christians. Committed by muslims, which are expecting to be accepted by a continent full of exactly the community, they do despise.
What is on their mind ? We can not accept people who come here to change the rules of the community on our own turf by violence.
We in europe are heading for an ugly clash, and with hundreds of boat people floating in every day the situation will blow some day.
You americans can call yourself lucky that the atlantic ocean is much bigger than the mediterranean.
We had a religious motivated homicide of a dozen boat people in the mediterranean last week, just because they were christians. Committed by muslims, which are expecting to be accepted by a continent full of exactly the community, they do despise.
What is on their mind ? We can not accept people who come here to change the rules of the community on our own turf by violence.
We in europe are heading for an ugly clash, and with hundreds of boat people floating in every day the situation will blow some day.
You americans can call yourself lucky that the atlantic ocean is much bigger than the mediterranean.
386
Laws pertaining to holocaust denial have nothing to do with politeness, or the prevention of blasphemy, or avoiding insult to groups of people. They have everything to do with prevention of another similar event, and the prevention of the kind of gross denial that is allowed to take place in other countries where genocide has been perpetrated. These laws, like similar de-Nazification programs in Germany, were never put into place by Jews, or as a tribute to Jews, but rather to prevent the citizens of the nations in which they were passed from regressing into a state of denial and repetition of barbarity after WWII. It would be worthwhile to see more of a discussion on this false equivalence between holocaust denial and blasphemy in the NYT and elsewhere.
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@Middleman MD
You are right, holocaust denial and blasphemy are not in the same league. But that's not the point.
The point is - are the people accepting the civil code, the constitution. And Muslims think they can justify an homicide by whatever. They don't accept the sole monopol of the civil community for law enforcement and jurisdiction. The subject doesn't matter, some muslims try to justify dodging the system, that's the problem.
You are right, holocaust denial and blasphemy are not in the same league. But that's not the point.
The point is - are the people accepting the civil code, the constitution. And Muslims think they can justify an homicide by whatever. They don't accept the sole monopol of the civil community for law enforcement and jurisdiction. The subject doesn't matter, some muslims try to justify dodging the system, that's the problem.
58
The Catastrophe was and still is being promulgated against Christian/Muslim Arab Palestinians by Zionist Jewish terrorist organizations beginning with the Haganah, Palmach, Irgun Zvai Leumi, Stern Gang and Lehi culminating in the Israel Defense Force justified by crimes against the Jews committed by Europeans over millennia.
From the diasporas, crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, ghettos and genocides including Holocaust the Austrians, Germans, French, Polish, Italians, Spanish and Russians were the corrupt criminal culprits.
By moral legal just right the nation state of the Jewish people called Israel should be carved from either/or/ all of Germany, Italy, Russia, Spain, Poland, Austria, Baltic states or the Vatican.
From the diasporas, crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, ghettos and genocides including Holocaust the Austrians, Germans, French, Polish, Italians, Spanish and Russians were the corrupt criminal culprits.
By moral legal just right the nation state of the Jewish people called Israel should be carved from either/or/ all of Germany, Italy, Russia, Spain, Poland, Austria, Baltic states or the Vatican.
7
Religion is fine and I'm happy to tolerate it until it infringes upon the secular community. This includes extremes of all religions (e.g. Branch Davidians, polygamous quasi-Mormon sects, some ultra-Orthodox and some Muslims.) who at times have infringed on secular laws.
Why should a secular government be expected to build houses of worship? If citizens want more mosques, raise the money on your own and build or buy. It is not the responsibility of a secular government and its other taxpayers to foot the bill for religion. If you want lots of free mosques, move to a theocratic state.
Synagogues are protected because the French citizens who go there are targets. The government is responsible for protecting its citizens!
Holocaust denial is not equivalent to depicting the Prophet. The prohibition against denial is a secular law that acknowledges the mistakes of a secular Vichy regime. End of. Do I agree with the policy? No. I'm a free speech (short of incitement) supporter.