I'm glad the judge put a stop to this nonsense and hopefully the appeals court sees it for what it is: witch hunting because folks don't like someone's imagination. What would be next, place a chip in everybody's head and toss into jail anyone who fantasizes about having sex with a 16 year old?
1
While the subject matter is nothing to smile about, I am sure that the directors father has the widest grin on his face. He would have been fighting to get his story about his daughter on A1. Congrats, Ms. Carr.
So after reading the article, my immediate thought was, how could a Judge over turn this verdict? This very sick man thinks there is nothing wrong with him.
That was the most frightening thing I took away from this article. And, it appears he ready to "date". God help us.
That was the most frightening thing I took away from this article. And, it appears he ready to "date". God help us.
1
Although I do not believe that his fantasies were criminal, and commented on an article about his trial to this effect, he is out of his mind to be commenting on the case while the appeal is pending. He must have disregarded his attorneys' advice in cooperating with the filmmakers. He has been acquitted for the moment. His fantasies are nothing to glorify and he should keep his mouth shut and sink back into anonymity.
2
“It’s been a long time, you know,” Mr. Valle says. “I think sometimes I’m craving a little, you know, craving some companionship."
It's simply too much to use the word "craving."
It should be stricken from his vocabulary. Where is his defense attorney to instruct him regarding such things...
It's simply too much to use the word "craving."
It should be stricken from his vocabulary. Where is his defense attorney to instruct him regarding such things...
4
And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They’d probably put my head in a guillotine
Bob Dylan, It's All Right Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)
They’d probably put my head in a guillotine
Bob Dylan, It's All Right Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)
this man was compiling dossiers on specific women. he accessed a supposedly secure database he had no legitimate access to for information about them.
what people are eager to dismiss as fantasy, i suggest was preparation for the point he decided to act on those very specific, detailed plans of action.
what people are eager to dismiss as fantasy, i suggest was preparation for the point he decided to act on those very specific, detailed plans of action.
7
While the same fantasy dynamic that he claims is at work with many jihadis surfing the web, our government responds to that by sending in a sting operation to push that as far as it will go an make an arrrest. Sometimes it is quite unfair, but it reflect the degree of concern. Surely as a cop Mr Valle will understand.
With mistreatment of women (not to mention murder and cannibalism!) we certainly have the right and the duty to be concerned. This man needs to be closely watched and also deserves to get serious therapy.
No all fetishes are to be permitted. For example, stamping on small animals in high heels, etc-- no, this is not acceptable in a human being.
With mistreatment of women (not to mention murder and cannibalism!) we certainly have the right and the duty to be concerned. This man needs to be closely watched and also deserves to get serious therapy.
No all fetishes are to be permitted. For example, stamping on small animals in high heels, etc-- no, this is not acceptable in a human being.
11
"The cannibal cop case really raises the big question: What is the line between thought and action, right, between fantasy and crime? And it’s so gray". I don't think there is anything "gray" about the line between thought and action, nor between fantasy and crime. In action and crime, there is an actual victim. In thought and fantasy, there is no victim. I think that is a big difference.
4
If we start arresting people for their thoughts, we're all in big big trouble.
4
These words are on a poster on a wall in the hallway of my son's elementary school:
Watch Your Thoughts, they become your words
Watch your Words, they become your actions
Watch you Actions, they become your habits
Watch your Habits, they become your character
Watch your Character, it becomes your destiny.
I dont agree with prosecuting someone for their thoughts, but imagine if the criminal justice system did not prosecute Valle and he did indeed became another Jeffrey Dummer. All of us would be outraged that the authorities did not act swiftly when they should have and when they saw the first signs of a grim future.
Watch Your Thoughts, they become your words
Watch your Words, they become your actions
Watch you Actions, they become your habits
Watch your Habits, they become your character
Watch your Character, it becomes your destiny.
I dont agree with prosecuting someone for their thoughts, but imagine if the criminal justice system did not prosecute Valle and he did indeed became another Jeffrey Dummer. All of us would be outraged that the authorities did not act swiftly when they should have and when they saw the first signs of a grim future.
4
I wouldn't be outraged. Arrests for thought crimes are far more outrageous.
3
I'm sorry, but the fact that he hasn't done anything criminal - yet - doesn't prove anything to me that he's innocent. If anything, I wouldn't want to be living next door with this guy who could well fantasizing cutting women up and cooking them as meat. Yes yes, he says he would never hurt a fly, but yes, murderers never kill anyone - yet - until that moment comes when they start to kill.
The fact that this guy was a cop makes it especially disturbing. Here it is, a guy in uniform and someone who is to be the good guy. Behind those facade, he could be using his access to stalk any potential victims. The thoughts are just too scary.
His ex-wife did the right thing.
The fact that this guy was a cop makes it especially disturbing. Here it is, a guy in uniform and someone who is to be the good guy. Behind those facade, he could be using his access to stalk any potential victims. The thoughts are just too scary.
His ex-wife did the right thing.
10
On second thought, wouldn't "conspiracy" be applied here? Just because an act wasn't committed conspiring to commit murder is illegal...or is it?
7
Dear Earl Horton,
Good point but for one detail; legally, a conspiracy must be between at least two people, and from all the evidence this guy was making any plans on his own.
Good point but for one detail; legally, a conspiracy must be between at least two people, and from all the evidence this guy was making any plans on his own.
2
Actually, people he was conspiring with also went to trial (separately).
3
This is a terribly flawed prosecution. No one should be prosecuted for their thoughts -- and that seems to be all these were -- no matter how obnoxious the thoughts are.
Thinking about bloody and grotesque horror seems to be a common human condition if we judge by the number of films, for instance, that show such things. Should the authors and screen writers be prosecuted?
The one thing we should be entitled to in an increasingly intrusive society, is our own thoughts, whatever they may be. Actions no, but thoughts yes.
Thinking about bloody and grotesque horror seems to be a common human condition if we judge by the number of films, for instance, that show such things. Should the authors and screen writers be prosecuted?
The one thing we should be entitled to in an increasingly intrusive society, is our own thoughts, whatever they may be. Actions no, but thoughts yes.
8
Or maybe a crime was actually prevented? These dark online communities and anonymous apps allow people to act out truly misogynistic behavior. The you need to wonder, who else was this guy chatting and which one them will be compelled to act out their hatred against women. I think the word "fantasy"needs to be unpacked here. His thoughts are dark and deranged and he has something wrong with him. I hate to think of young men reading this stuff... I have a daughter out there.
8
I stopped reading Joyce Carol Oates because she is so interested in the minds of very creepy killers. I never thought she wants to do the deeds, but found the books too upsetting. I remember the car (in Ohio?) of someone being prosecuted for child pornography, because he wrote it. He never acted on it. It seemed wrong to me that he was arrested and successfully prosecuted for his thoughts.
But can one always tell between someone who only fantasizes and someone who really will do it?
But can one always tell between someone who only fantasizes and someone who really will do it?
1
This is a step over the line to conspiracy, which is an actual criminal offense that has been on the books for a very long time.
The issue isn't that he's had these thoughts. I don't trust anyone who says he's never, not even once, thought of killing someone and wished he had it in him to do it. And although my preceding hypothetical largely assumed hot hatred - say, someone who'd hurt my cat - neither will i judge motives, even though there's something really disquieting about a guy who gets off on these fantasies. Once, many years ago, after I brushed off a pass from a guy at a party, he came up to me at intervals during the evening and said 'you can't do anything about what I'm thinking'. Brrr. But he was right - I couldn't.
The thing is: Valle went beyond all of these. He actually had a specific target and a plausible plan to act on his fantasies, which he took steps to implement. If he'd written as specifically about his desire to assassinate a prominent politician, you can bet the authorities would take it seriously and be knocking at his door.
The issue isn't that he's had these thoughts. I don't trust anyone who says he's never, not even once, thought of killing someone and wished he had it in him to do it. And although my preceding hypothetical largely assumed hot hatred - say, someone who'd hurt my cat - neither will i judge motives, even though there's something really disquieting about a guy who gets off on these fantasies. Once, many years ago, after I brushed off a pass from a guy at a party, he came up to me at intervals during the evening and said 'you can't do anything about what I'm thinking'. Brrr. But he was right - I couldn't.
The thing is: Valle went beyond all of these. He actually had a specific target and a plausible plan to act on his fantasies, which he took steps to implement. If he'd written as specifically about his desire to assassinate a prominent politician, you can bet the authorities would take it seriously and be knocking at his door.
4
Why on EARTH hasn't his use of public space to air his truly morbid fantasy been brought into it?
2
I wholeheartedly agree that anyone should be able to express and write about fantasies, even ones as vile as Mr. Valle, but he used a police database to look up potential victim's addresses, if that doesn't cross the line into conspiracy, then there many people in prison for drug conspiracies that need to have their convictions overturned.
19
Conducting surveillance? Using the Law Enforcement Data base to learn about specific women? The guy went way beyond internet chat. Whether he actively conspired to kill a real person is up to a jury, but the judge has over ruled them. Appeal the decision, retry the case, if necessary. But make sure the stalking behavior is included as a lesser option.
16
Much as we might disagree with his particular pursuit of happiness, there is no evidence that he was stalking anyone in preparation for kidnapping and abuse or that anyone was harmed. Reading, writing, and fantasizing about a sexual fetish is and never should be illegal. One man's meat is another man's poison, and unless you want the PC police breathing down your throat and monitoring your fantasies, best to back off. His wife has a different relationship to him than anyone else and has the right to separate herself from him if she finds his fantasies disturbing.
The only potential crime here may be the unlawful use of a police data base.
As to his fitness to be a police officer - given the recent killings in the news, I wonder how many officers fantasize about killing someone when they are on the shooting range.
The only potential crime here may be the unlawful use of a police data base.
As to his fitness to be a police officer - given the recent killings in the news, I wonder how many officers fantasize about killing someone when they are on the shooting range.
8
Your comment is not accurate. Mr. Valle and his online partner had indeed picked out specific women to target. Their names were given to the police and they themselves were notified. Mr. Valle wants us to think this was all fantasy. That's his right, but society has the right to tell him - "sorry - we're aren't taking that chance."
16
“I couldn’t hurt a fly.”
Remember the last line in Psycho?
Remember the last line in Psycho?
14
Brilliant! Also a cop who's incapable of violence? How did he get the job?
12
And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They’d probably put my head in a guillotine
But it’s alright, Ma, it’s life, and life only
They’d probably put my head in a guillotine
But it’s alright, Ma, it’s life, and life only
8
People in all walks of life have all kinds of fantasy. It's just that before the internet, they were better kept private, or least in a shoebox in the closet or underwear drawer. I don't believe that dark fantasies have any bearing on one's "fitness" for anything, be it husband, father, policeman or doctor. It's what people do not what they dream that matters. Come on people, how popular were the Saw movies? If we think in this way, probably everyone who sat through one of those films should be disqualified from pretty much everything if not incarcerated.
7
This guy is wasting his time. He should be a writer. I suggest he write a crime novel or screenplay about a police officer stalking innocent women on the beat and acting out his violent fantasies on them and being made the lead detective on the case. Hollywood should snatch up this lurid Hitchcockian tale of a serial cannabal, and it would probably make some coin at the box office. In fact, a great pulp writer, Jim Thompson, wrote a classic novel long these lines, "The KIller Inside Me" about a killer cop. And it was adapted and made into a movie that starred Casey Affleck, Jessica Alba and Kate Hudson. These kind of violent fantasties are common fare among our fellow law-abiding citizens, leading lives of quiet desperation, especially these Norman Bates types, llike this very cop who is living with their mothers after a divorce. Talk about a guy with a rather pronounced Oedipal complex. His mother in the novel or film should be named Jocasta. But seriously, this news story seems to be more about the issue of freedom of speech. I also suggest he look into another line of work and get a good therapist, that is, if his conviction is again overturned, and he can get his act together and rebuild his life.
6
So where are the prosecutions of Danny Elfman for writing and performing songs about sexul relations with underage women and torture? Where are the convictions for all of the rappers who sing about raping and killing women? The arrests of novelists who write books about killing the president and overthrowing the government? Why isn't Eddie Murphy in prison for saying he wanted to "kill his landlord" even though it was a comedy sketch performed as a character on Saturday Night Live - how different are characters and avatars?
If Valle had written all of his thoughts in a pamphlet or a novel instead of in a chat room, wouldn't they be vigirously defended by free speech advocates? Wouldn't they be protected under the First Amendment? Just because words are in pixels and not paper shouldn't make the speech any less protected.
Ppedophiles, rapists, serial killers and other such deviants often express those thoughts prior to committing the acts. But there is also no question many people express those thoughts without ever carrying through on the act.
If Valle had written all of his thoughts in a pamphlet or a novel instead of in a chat room, wouldn't they be vigirously defended by free speech advocates? Wouldn't they be protected under the First Amendment? Just because words are in pixels and not paper shouldn't make the speech any less protected.
Ppedophiles, rapists, serial killers and other such deviants often express those thoughts prior to committing the acts. But there is also no question many people express those thoughts without ever carrying through on the act.
9
He wasn't convicted of simply expressly his fantasies, no matter how violent and anti-social those were. Rather, he was convicted of conspiring to kidnap and torture a particular person, as well as illegal use of government databases to obtain personal information about that person. Like any other crime, when you take affirmative steps in planning to carry it out (for example, coordinate with others to highjack a plane and fly it into a building), you are guilty of conspiracy and subject to arrest and trial. You cannot get rely on the argument that all you did was communicate through words/ email/letters/phone calls as a defense that will hold up in such a trial. The critical issue is whether you have take actual affirmative steps to proceed with the criminal act intended, and the prosecution in this case presented evidence that he had done that.
31
One of the oldest religious sayings in the world comes from Zoroaster, or Zarathustra, if you are a fan of Nietzsche. It is "Good thoughts, good words, good deeds."
What has always puzzled me about this saying is that it is relatively easy for most of us (note the word 'most', please) to control what deeds we do. This is how reputations are made, such as the one that Mother Teresa made for herself by helping India's poor people. It is a little more difficult to control our words, although with practice and a good upbringing, it is not impossible.
But who can control their own thoughts, and how can this be done? If we are honest with ourselves, and very few of us are, we can and will notice all sorts of untoward thoughts popping into our minds. And more we attempt to control these thoughts, the more unruly they become. The Zen people and the meditators say to be non-judgmental towards our own thoughts and to let them come and go without judgment. This is the wisest approach to finding out who we really are as people.
But all of this pondering doesn't make me lose sight of the fact that Mr. Valle is better off not being a policeman, and so are we. He may have had such thoughts, but should not have written them on the Internet. Big mistake.
And I am glad to see that one of David Carr's children is working about issues in the media and how they affect us. I still feel Mr. Carr's death at a relatively young age as a loss for all of us NY Times readers.
8
“All violence is an attempt to replace shame with self-esteem.”
Whether you do it with a pressure cooker bomb or a keyboard, to borrow from Gertrude Stein "violence is violence is violence.
Whether you do it with a pressure cooker bomb or a keyboard, to borrow from Gertrude Stein "violence is violence is violence.
6
Tell that to the folks that had their legs blown off. Everybody still has all their body parts in this story.
As I recall, two other men were convicted in this very messy case. One was sentenced to 10 years. Instruments of bondage and torture were purchased, and apparently at least one instance of child porn was discovered.
Mr. Valle did time served and lost his job for his behavior, but I think the lesson learned here is that dark thoughts (and its foolishness to deny that we don't all have them) in this age of social media need to be handled carefully. You very well could bump up against individuals who will take it farther than you expected.
Mr. Valle did time served and lost his job for his behavior, but I think the lesson learned here is that dark thoughts (and its foolishness to deny that we don't all have them) in this age of social media need to be handled carefully. You very well could bump up against individuals who will take it farther than you expected.
11
Sorry don't have evil thoughts. And what a foolish thing to say.
5
Um, no! We do not all have thoughts of torturing others. No. And this 'person' seems to have abused his access to data as a cop.
6
Would there not be some reasonable point on the spectrum of societal reaction to this man's particular bent that lies between complete inaction and life imprisonment? Some solution that mandates extensive psychological evaluation and any therapy or detention that mental health professionals might deem necessary to ensure that his family and society is not placed at risk by his complete freedom?
Have we really progressed so little in our pitchfork, lighted torch, nearest tree approach to mental illness?
Have we really progressed so little in our pitchfork, lighted torch, nearest tree approach to mental illness?
3
This article is so disturbing. I cannot believe anyone, especially a police officer who is supposed to help people can be so emotionally dimented. However it is enlightening to read the transparency of the police department.
In Michigan it's quite the opposite. Especially in Livonia, where police officer James Green was able to write a false police report to cover up that he was stallking a woman. Then had his brother in law Sgt. Killingbeck lie on the report about him not having a daughter so not to admit his wife went to the woman's house several times crying with the minor child. Then the sergeant wrote a fictitious article in the local paper since his wife works there.
When the police officers are bored here they not only do whatever they want, they get away with it!
In Michigan it's quite the opposite. Especially in Livonia, where police officer James Green was able to write a false police report to cover up that he was stallking a woman. Then had his brother in law Sgt. Killingbeck lie on the report about him not having a daughter so not to admit his wife went to the woman's house several times crying with the minor child. Then the sergeant wrote a fictitious article in the local paper since his wife works there.
When the police officers are bored here they not only do whatever they want, they get away with it!
4
His imagination was wasting away being a cop and his marriage was probably a dog's breakfast even before he turned to the net, so he's better off. He should become a writer or an artist or a chef.
2
Phil
I don't care what Valle does next. He's done enough for a lifetime.
I don't care what Valle does next. He's done enough for a lifetime.
3
The fact that the fantasy was there speaks volumes. Naturally, if he hadn't been interested the fantasy would not have been there, manifested through his online activity.
To me, this guy is scary, and I am glad to see him off police duty, and possibly off the streets.
To me, this guy is scary, and I am glad to see him off police duty, and possibly off the streets.
6
Lets lock up all the TV cop show writers who constantly write about depraved beings, and any reporters who distribute news of criminal acts.
Excuse me while I retire to my feinting couch and fetch some landum to calm my all too sensitive and frazzled nerves.
Excuse me while I retire to my feinting couch and fetch some landum to calm my all too sensitive and frazzled nerves.
4
Much as we might disagree with his particular pursuit of happiness, there is no evidence that he was stalking anyone in preparation for kidnapping and abuse or that anyone was harmed. Reading, writing, and fantasizing about a sexual fetish is and never should be illegal. One man's meat is another man's poison, and unless you want the PC police breathing down your throat and monitoring your fantasies, best to back off. His wife has a different relationship to him than anyone else and has the right to separate herself from him if she finds his fantasies disturbing.
The only potential crime here may be the unlawful use of a police data base.
As to his fitness to be a police officer - given the recent killings in the news, I wonder how many officers fantasize about killing someone when they are on the shooting range.
The only potential crime here may be the unlawful use of a police data base.
As to his fitness to be a police officer - given the recent killings in the news, I wonder how many officers fantasize about killing someone when they are on the shooting range.
6
Not so. He suggested specific 'victims', visited one, and looked up others' information using the police data base. He crossed the line from pure fantasy into people's actual lives.
3
The individual case is one thing, but the ease this case has demonstrated we take the internal lives of others -- that have no detectable manifestation in their real lives, nor even a trend -- should disturb people way more than I think it does.
"Thought crimes" is not the direction we want to go in, friends. Because wherever we start to watch, there will grow to become watchers, and then we will given them badges and make laws.
"Thought crimes" is not the direction we want to go in, friends. Because wherever we start to watch, there will grow to become watchers, and then we will given them badges and make laws.
8
This man's thoughts are indeed horrific. However, just turn on your television to see any crime drama and these kinds of fantasies play out each night on your TV screen. The writers of the shows are not being charged with a crime, yet they are dreaming up these scenarios too. The most current book in JK Rowling's detective series has a similar scene of murder and gore, but she was not arrested for writing it. I do not condone this man's behavior and it is scary to think that he " might " have acted out his fantasies in the future. However, that
is not proof that he committed a crime.
is not proof that he committed a crime.
13
Watch your thoughts, for your thoughts become your words;
watch your words, for your words become your actions;
watch your actions, for your actions become your habits;
watch your habits, for your habits become your character.
watch your words, for your words become your actions;
watch your actions, for your actions become your habits;
watch your habits, for your habits become your character.
15
What is this nonsense?
a tends toward b, b tends toward c, c tends toward d, therefore a tends toward d ? that is mathematically and logically false.
a tends toward b, b tends toward c, c tends toward d, therefore a tends toward d ? that is mathematically and logically false.
1
With what's been going on with some sadistic police shootings and cover up, especially where black men are concerned, are we surprised that a cannibal was among their midst? The majority of police officers are reasonable and decent human beings. Some are even kind individuals. Why their organizations tolerate the deviants and the psychopaths are beyond me.
10
A fantasy about being a cannibal does not a cannibal make. Many fantasize about murder who would be revolted by the sight of a dead body. How many stories have as a plot a person who in the last instance could not pull the trigger?
1
What is it about this case that you don't understand? Mr. Valle had names of women he was preparing to abduct. He and his online partner had sought assistance in hiring someone to do the abducting. The women were notified after Mr. Valle was arrested. If this is your idea of innocent fantasy, then I'm afraid for you friends and loved ones.
1
Too bad the murderer's defense attorneys in the Tsaernav cas didn't have the benefit of Judge Gerdaphe's wisdom. This legal wonder would have dismissed their online delving into bomb making as "fantasy role-play."
I wonder how these guys get on the bench?
I wonder how these guys get on the bench?
3
The difference is that Tsarnaev actually created bombs and then exploded them in public, killing and injuring hundreds. This man may be depraved and his predilections may make you uncomfortable (and well they should) but no crime was committed. He should have, and did, lose his job for using police databases to look up women, but again, no crime was committed.
While I think that Mr. Valle is a sick man who I wouldn't want to be friends with, what he did was in no way criminal and so your vilification of the judge who overturned his conviction is unwarranted.
While I think that Mr. Valle is a sick man who I wouldn't want to be friends with, what he did was in no way criminal and so your vilification of the judge who overturned his conviction is unwarranted.
1
This person's fantasies are not on trial.
What is on trial are his attempts to carry them out: using a law enforcement database to collect information about actual potential victims, and conducting surveillance (in other words, stalking) them.
This is more than fantasy; it's more than intent. It is conspiracy to commit murder, which is criminal.
Who in their right mind thinks we should just wait until he actually carries out one of these murders to prosecute him?
What is on trial are his attempts to carry them out: using a law enforcement database to collect information about actual potential victims, and conducting surveillance (in other words, stalking) them.
This is more than fantasy; it's more than intent. It is conspiracy to commit murder, which is criminal.
Who in their right mind thinks we should just wait until he actually carries out one of these murders to prosecute him?
96
Thank you for making the distinction that is missing from people's perspective. He was talking about real people and not characters and engaged in illegal use of a law enforcement database of real people.
20
To LMC: the only potential crime is that he may have been using a police database for unlawful purposes. Many sexual fantasies involve real people, for example, co-workers, people seen on the street, etc.
Exactly! And people are trivializing what he did as mere "thoughts" because they involve violence against adult women. If he did exactly the same thing with children, people would want to lock him away and throw away the key.
4
If Mr. Valle is guilty, how many other Americans are criminal thinkers? I looked up online, repeatedly, how meth is manufactured. I wanted to know if the police can use ground-penetrating radar to detect underground marijuana grow facilities. I don't do drugs. I don't make them. I don't sell them. But to the NSA I probably look like Pablo Escobar's right hand man.
6
Another Perspective: the thought police are on their way. You'd better not even fantasize about offering resistance or running away. That will just add to the charges (and they probably have the right to water-board you into confessions).
1
There is a psychological fine line between dark fantasy fetishes and acting out on them. He will become a bigger celebrity because of this film and my hope is the court system that set him free requires he participates in regular psychological counseling because you just don’t turn off a computer and walk away from a powerful alter ego.
5
Wendi: "you just don’t turn off a computer and walk away from a powerful alter ego."
And why not? Millions do it every day.
And why not? Millions do it every day.
Some of these comments miss the fact that his wife turned him in because she was persuaded to think that her husband was going to kill her.
If a woman comes to the police and says, "My husband plans to kill me," and, the police ask, "what proof do you have?" and she then shows them the material he was posting online - if you were the police, would you ignore it, particularly when the alleged plotter was a cop?
Valle placed himself in this situation he's whining about now, but his WIFE believed she was going to be hung up and butchered.
What was she supposed to do? "Ah, honey, can we sit and talk? I have a few things I'd like to discuss with you."
His writing terrorized her, as it would any reasonable person. His perceived intent to torture his wife can't be denied. He wrote it down! She did the only thing she could have done and reported it.
This line in the story is particularly weird and creepy: "“This is the first time I’m really opening up about all kinds of freaky stuff, you know, cannibalism and bondage. All these years, it’s all bottled up. Here, I had my chance to finally talk to somebody about it."
Say what? He's been thinking about this stuff for years?
It's the ex-wife who is the direct victim here. Talk about a lifetime of nightmares thanks to her ex. He may not have been able to have done what he was planning in his musings - or maybe he would have. We don't know because she turned him in and she's still alive maybe because she did.
If a woman comes to the police and says, "My husband plans to kill me," and, the police ask, "what proof do you have?" and she then shows them the material he was posting online - if you were the police, would you ignore it, particularly when the alleged plotter was a cop?
Valle placed himself in this situation he's whining about now, but his WIFE believed she was going to be hung up and butchered.
What was she supposed to do? "Ah, honey, can we sit and talk? I have a few things I'd like to discuss with you."
His writing terrorized her, as it would any reasonable person. His perceived intent to torture his wife can't be denied. He wrote it down! She did the only thing she could have done and reported it.
This line in the story is particularly weird and creepy: "“This is the first time I’m really opening up about all kinds of freaky stuff, you know, cannibalism and bondage. All these years, it’s all bottled up. Here, I had my chance to finally talk to somebody about it."
Say what? He's been thinking about this stuff for years?
It's the ex-wife who is the direct victim here. Talk about a lifetime of nightmares thanks to her ex. He may not have been able to have done what he was planning in his musings - or maybe he would have. We don't know because she turned him in and she's still alive maybe because she did.
49
Exactly. If this judge's "logic" was applied broadly, it would be the end of any restraining orders without an overt physical act of violence. Judge Gardephe's fitness for the bench needs to be investigated, and this criminal former cop needs to be locked up pronto. Judge Gardephe's naivete - or foolishness - reminds me of a very recent case in which another brain-free judge said the molester of a three year-old toddler did not intend to harm his victim.
Hopefully, the state will prevail in its effort to have the sentence reinstated before this cannibal starts "dating" again.
Hopefully, the state will prevail in its effort to have the sentence reinstated before this cannibal starts "dating" again.
5
Mr MaGoo: what if he finds a new partner who is also interested in bondage and cannibalism and has dark fantasies?
Hopefully, the state will come and check your computer and make sure you are acceptable to the rest of us.
Hopefully, the state will come and check your computer and make sure you are acceptable to the rest of us.
Magoo, there is a difference between a restraining order and the criminal conviction he received. His wife may or may not have been right about his intentions but she w a s right to report it. Now whether he should have been charged and convicted is another story. And what should he have been convicted of? Inappropriate use of a police database can be a crime but whether this crime w a s a true indicator of his intent to act out his fantasies is another question. Wrong as it is, police and other databases are misused. When the information garnered is then utilized for harassment or worse is when an additional crime beyond the inappropriate use occurs.
But, he adds: “I’m incapable of any violence. I couldn’t hurt a fly."
I hope the Second Circuit overrules the district court. This man used confidential police records, established a pattern of sadism, and assorted other activities that go far beyond "fantasy role-play". he should be incarcerated to the max.
I hope the Second Circuit overrules the district court. This man used confidential police records, established a pattern of sadism, and assorted other activities that go far beyond "fantasy role-play". he should be incarcerated to the max.
8
Tess Harding: hold the vigilante tendencies! He may be guilty of using a police database without justification. But he has not established a pattern of sadism [fantasy is not a crime in this country, yet] and assorted other fantasies that in your opinion "go far beyond 'fantasy role-play'" certainly do not justify, in any way, incarceration to the max!
You should be willing to be incarcerated to the max for all your "bad thoughts". No?
You should be willing to be incarcerated to the max for all your "bad thoughts". No?
I am pushing for the prosecution of John Prine for his lyrics in the song Please Don't Bury Me advocating cannibalism.
''I'd rather have them cut me up and pass me all around"
Millions have been affected by this man.
A truly disturbed mind made worse by illegal smiles that we must be protected from.
''I'd rather have them cut me up and pass me all around"
Millions have been affected by this man.
A truly disturbed mind made worse by illegal smiles that we must be protected from.
4
Bravo! I haven't thought about John Prine in years.
2
Are you actually saying that the lyrics by some obscure singer are comparable to a cop making explicit plans - including illegally accessing a police database to perform research and stalking - to commit torture, murder, and cannibalism? Wow.
6
Mr Magoo: these were not explicit plans - your characterization of them is at fault. He has not committed the crime of stalking - that involves harassment and intimidation. The only thing you are left with is accessing a police database without justification. There is no evidence whatsoever that he actually planned to commit torture, murder and cannibalism. You would imprison someone for imagined crimes.
Thank god he'll never hold a position of power again--except in his warped mind.
People who would pay to see this piece of dreck will get the nightmares they deserve.
People who would pay to see this piece of dreck will get the nightmares they deserve.
11
Tess Harding: why don't you google "bondage and cannibalism" just for fun. And just how do you know what the fantasies are in people who are in positions of power?
Gee, if only his wife had not installed that software! I have the feeling that Valle would have deleted everything and then gone back to it again. He couldn't resist it. Guilty or not, his behavior is creepy and his wife had the same response most sane people would: get out.
23
Kate: you mean "most sane people" like yourself. Now how do you deal with those 'insane' people who write movie scripts and novels involving scenes of torture and dismemberment? Didn't they have to do research and didn't they have to have images in their mind that they transmitted to paper?
OK so his conviction was overturned. Could someone with legal knowledge explain why the government's appeal of that decision isn't double jeopardy? I'm sure there must a reason there's an exception in this sort of case.
3
not legal knowledge, but speculation: it's not a re-trial, e.g. not double jeopardy, because it's only an appeal. e.g. the evidence is in. what's at question is the judge's authority and discretion, surely a matter for the courts. also, noting your (BenR's) Wisconsin address recalls relevant thoughts one of the most notorious: Ed Gein. -- my having been an impressionable teen in Ed's day.
2
Ben,
He is not being retried for the same crime after being exonerated by a jury (double jeopardy) - the state is appealing the judge's decision to toss out his conviction.
He is not being retried for the same crime after being exonerated by a jury (double jeopardy) - the state is appealing the judge's decision to toss out his conviction.
1
Thanks for the info. Gein, and Dahmer were before my time here in Wisconsin.
I think it actually would be a grave injustice to send this wannabe cannibal to jail for life, for conspiring to kidnap, when he'd done no physical preparation nor specific planning. Like, if his car trunk had duct tape, chloroform, large garbage bags, a shovel, and a Hibachi, that would constitute preparation and make the charge fairly valid.
However, Mr. Valle has a dangerous psychological problem here. I think that a compassionate and wise D.A. would have made a plea bargain that allowed him to avoid jail time, pleading to some lesser offense, but then have mandatory psychiatric therapy until he was deemed cured, or died of old age. This type of sociopathic urge could easily turn him into a killer someday, but we can't really jail him for that, because really all of us could easily be a killer someday. If you, dear reader, think you could never kill someone, think of progressively more catastrophic scenarios (eg: someone firing a gun at you, someone about to slay a child in front of you) and I'm sure you'll find there's an extreme situation that would do it.
For those who believe, even thinking and writing about this is a jailable offense, if that's true we'd better track everything everyone ever writes on the internet. If someone uses certain words too often, jail them. This would solve unemployment pretty quickly but I think we would hate the fascism it would take to implement this.
However, Mr. Valle has a dangerous psychological problem here. I think that a compassionate and wise D.A. would have made a plea bargain that allowed him to avoid jail time, pleading to some lesser offense, but then have mandatory psychiatric therapy until he was deemed cured, or died of old age. This type of sociopathic urge could easily turn him into a killer someday, but we can't really jail him for that, because really all of us could easily be a killer someday. If you, dear reader, think you could never kill someone, think of progressively more catastrophic scenarios (eg: someone firing a gun at you, someone about to slay a child in front of you) and I'm sure you'll find there's an extreme situation that would do it.
For those who believe, even thinking and writing about this is a jailable offense, if that's true we'd better track everything everyone ever writes on the internet. If someone uses certain words too often, jail them. This would solve unemployment pretty quickly but I think we would hate the fascism it would take to implement this.
15
Dan, there is a thing called self defense, and justifiable homocide, or being in the military which is very different from what this guy's thing is.
This guy really creeps me out, but if there was only thoughts, and no other action taken I find it wrong to lock him up, and maybe keep an I on him.
And as to the question of when he should reveal his thoughts about this stuff to a new prospective girlfriend, right in the beginning, "Hi, I'm Gilberto Valle, I have/had fantasies about killing, cooking, and eating women like you".
This guy really creeps me out, but if there was only thoughts, and no other action taken I find it wrong to lock him up, and maybe keep an I on him.
And as to the question of when he should reveal his thoughts about this stuff to a new prospective girlfriend, right in the beginning, "Hi, I'm Gilberto Valle, I have/had fantasies about killing, cooking, and eating women like you".
Dan Stackhouse: Googling "bondage and cannibalism yielded "About 283,000 results (0.73 seconds) " Lots of work for psychologists - and life long therapy if he wasn't cured? Cured of what? Fantasies? Your argument has a hole in it.
I don't think it's a coincidence that his ex-wife installed internet surveillance software in the first place. Deep down inside she knew something was amiss.
44
The story is disgusting. That said, there are fantasy/fetish communities out there on the Internet whose fantasies are just as disgusting, but are apparently not of interest to prosecutors because "they could never happen." Ha.
My point is not that other fetishists should be persecuted but that ugly fantasies of every type are so common that there is no way to use them as a standard of "criminality" except forensically. after something has happened. The Internet simply gives them a place to show themselves.
The human mind under stress and conflict dredges up odd fantasies; the vast majority fade, most of the rest don't go anywhere. If they did, you'd walk out your front door every morning into an X-rated slasher movie.
My point is not that other fetishists should be persecuted but that ugly fantasies of every type are so common that there is no way to use them as a standard of "criminality" except forensically. after something has happened. The Internet simply gives them a place to show themselves.
The human mind under stress and conflict dredges up odd fantasies; the vast majority fade, most of the rest don't go anywhere. If they did, you'd walk out your front door every morning into an X-rated slasher movie.
1
Yes, it's like going to the movies -- the ultimate in conjuring up disgusting fantasies. Problem is, there are those who would attempt to make them real.
Unfortunately, no simple solution.
Unfortunately, no simple solution.
A lot of people on here can forgive him for researching abduction and cannibalism techniques, but once he broke into that data base and started weaving real people into his "research" it does seem like he went from fantasizing to plotting.
58
CB: No, it doesn't. It means he used a police database without justifiable cause. That's the long and the short of it. All the rest is fantasy. It may be fantasy that you don't like and it may be visceral, but I would remind you that not too long ago people were put in public stocks for daring to speak their minds.
Another great example as to why one should entirely avoid making contacts with online computer dating sites-yikes!
7
This man is entitled to his thoughts and fantasies, horrific and unsettling as they may be. But he sure shouldn't be a police officer. Or a husband. Or a father.
49
"But he sure shouldn't be a police officer. Or a husband. Or a father."
Nor should he be allowed to walk free after taking actual steps to prepare for his crimes by, among other things, illegally accessing a police database to perform his "research." Once someone moves beyond merely talking to actually taking actions (even if only online), that is a part of the criminal act. This seems to be a point that Judge Gardephe and a lot of commenters here seem to have missed.
Nor should he be allowed to walk free after taking actual steps to prepare for his crimes by, among other things, illegally accessing a police database to perform his "research." Once someone moves beyond merely talking to actually taking actions (even if only online), that is a part of the criminal act. This seems to be a point that Judge Gardephe and a lot of commenters here seem to have missed.
3
Or a free man?
And I sure shouldn't be my neighbor. I don't want to see him anywhere near my neighborhood.
1
I am also convicted for thought crime, for mentally threatening a White professor in mind. My alleged crime was testifying at Ontario Human Rights Commission: “If they are going to kill me, I’m going to kill them, too.” For this I got convicted for threatening a White professor David Waterhouse of U of Toronto. Did I name Waterhouse as I was charged for? No. But the judge convicted me on his admitted “guess” that I “meant” to threaten Waterhouse in my mind. So I became a criminal of thoughts, not of acts. Not only no criminal fact was proven, but also, no criminal intent needed to be proven for them to indict me for threats. Canadian law requires the court to prove the accused’ intent for crime of threats, but I could not have ever formed any intent to threaten Waterhouse, because I did not know that Waterhouse or anyone else other than the Commission would ever know what I said at the Commission, due to the Commission’s guaranty of “confidentiality” to its plaintiffs. And this thought crime took place only because the Commission coerced me into testifying at the Commission against my will. All happened because I exercised my free speech to disagree with Waterhouse’s academic theory – beauty is a European concept, Asians did not have it in history, and complained against his retaliation fraud.
Just watch Bob Saget go unhinged in "The Aristrocrats" in a free association on sex, incest, scatological sex, incest, murder, pedophilia, pederasty, more scatology, family orgies involving all of the above and so on and so on. He could not stop and the fans just laughed and laughed and laughed. The producer who is auditioning acts for the show says, "I'd like to see that actually." More giddy laughter.
So why don't we arrest that producer? Why isn't Bob Saget up on charges?
These are more than anonymous admissions on a chat room. These are full on unedited brain explosions from real people playing themselves in a documentary. What makes their public airing of their secret dirty filthy thoughts acceptable, funny, and legal, and Mr. Valle's not?
Mr. Valle says he made a bad mistake, a really bad mistake. Yes he did. He didn't form his thoughts inside a construct that society considers proper. The construct of fame and entertainment grants impunity. The darkness of the internet does not. Our deepest and dirtiest thoughts need to stay at home until someone wants to make a movie. Then all is forgiven.
So why don't we arrest that producer? Why isn't Bob Saget up on charges?
These are more than anonymous admissions on a chat room. These are full on unedited brain explosions from real people playing themselves in a documentary. What makes their public airing of their secret dirty filthy thoughts acceptable, funny, and legal, and Mr. Valle's not?
Mr. Valle says he made a bad mistake, a really bad mistake. Yes he did. He didn't form his thoughts inside a construct that society considers proper. The construct of fame and entertainment grants impunity. The darkness of the internet does not. Our deepest and dirtiest thoughts need to stay at home until someone wants to make a movie. Then all is forgiven.
5
So how about those folks who are "thinking" about terrorist acts? Fantasizing about being a terrorist?
Is there any difference, it is all barbaric crime . Is Valle any different?
Was being a cop what influenced his not being charged?
We all know that the NYPD has a huge PR program that is propaganda at its best....
Is there any difference, it is all barbaric crime . Is Valle any different?
Was being a cop what influenced his not being charged?
We all know that the NYPD has a huge PR program that is propaganda at its best....
2
yes, we have to be very careful about arguing for the control of thoughts....yet, at the same time, how we express those thoughts can result in scrutiny we may not have considered. Bottom line, keep your thoughts to yourself?
1
Valle was charged. He was convicted. So being a cop did not influence his prosecution.
His conviction was overturned based on an interpretation of a constitutionally protected right.
His conviction was overturned based on an interpretation of a constitutionally protected right.
It is very revealing that he refers to his wife, not as "my wife", or by name, but as "the mom". It implies that he sees her only as a vehicle for a baby, excepting of course as a vehicle for bacon strips. What psychological testing did the NYPD administer to him? If he passed, then the bar was set verrry low. Hard cases make bad law, but if the gov can prosecute people as loose co-conspirators in drug crimes, then they ought to be able to pin something on this guy before he gets too hungry.
18
Whether Valle planned to act out these hideous fantasies,or was moving in that direction and the legal ramifications, is a difficult question, but behind that is a crucial psychological question: Why does brutal cruelty toward women turn on this guy and others like him? The pathology is likely rooted in early development, and obviously n the context of a film, a full answer is inaccessible, but surely it is worth attempting to shed some light on this. (Interesting that a guy with such murderous gynephobic obsessions is pictured with his Mom.) This article doesn't say whether the film probes that question, or just takes it for granted, "Some guys have these fantasies..."
17
If you're going to lock this guy up, you might as well lock up the author of The Silence of the Lambs or the director of the film based on the novel. Sick thoughts don't constitute criminal behavior.
18
There is a whole genre of torture horror movies that are extremely popular and make a lot of money. I personally question the mental health of people who would make or watch these movies, but I don't believe that they should be arrested. This guy has serious issues, but to jail someone only for his potential to cause harm seems wrong.
9
The author and director of The Silence of the Lambs weren't stalking actual people. BIG difference. HUGE.
4
Shelly: neither was this guy. Stalking involves harassment and intimidation. Where did you see that in this story?
Distinctions like that made by Judge Gardephe, between the Internet and the "real world," are getting hard to make. People use the Internet for their real-world activities: shopping, dating, banking, spying, stealing, bullying, etc.
Couldn't Valle's prolonged and violent online musings about killing women be prosecuted as hate speech? A difficult call to make, but it's had to argue (or stomach) that Valle's writings should be protected.
Couldn't Valle's prolonged and violent online musings about killing women be prosecuted as hate speech? A difficult call to make, but it's had to argue (or stomach) that Valle's writings should be protected.
10
Linda: "Couldn't Valle's prolonged and violent online musings about killing women be prosecuted as hate speech?"
No, it could not be prosecuted as hate speech. In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group.
Women are not a protected group.
The KKK is protected by our first amendment.
No, it could not be prosecuted as hate speech. In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group.
Women are not a protected group.
The KKK is protected by our first amendment.
And the importance of printing this story is WHAT? This man needs NO MORE ATTENTION. He's already had WAY more notoriety than his miserable, twisted mind deserves.
35
The point of this story is to remind women he's out there and to stay away, right?
I consider myself an open-minded person, but this guy doesn't have a kink, he is flat out twisted and needs help.
Somehow I feel that if women were seen as fully human beings the judge wouldn't have characterized Mr. Valle's actions as a lark.
I consider myself an open-minded person, but this guy doesn't have a kink, he is flat out twisted and needs help.
Somehow I feel that if women were seen as fully human beings the judge wouldn't have characterized Mr. Valle's actions as a lark.
3
It's an article about a film. Seems appropriate to me.
The point of this story is to determine where the line falls between constitutionally protected speech/thought and criminal activity.
The government needs to drop this case and let this man go. I believe he did himself in by actually doing the research on carrying out his fantasies w/out any proof that he was writing a book or screenplay.
It's disturbing as his fantasies are not what I would consider normal, but then again, what is normal.
He needs to see a mental health professional to determine where these disturbing thoughts towards women are coming from.
He can redeem himself!
It's disturbing as his fantasies are not what I would consider normal, but then again, what is normal.
He needs to see a mental health professional to determine where these disturbing thoughts towards women are coming from.
He can redeem himself!
12
“When you’re behind a computer screen late at night, no one knows who you are, where you are." Ha! I think Edward Snowden is a traitor but it's foolish to think you're alone on the web. It's less safe than meeting someone face to face.
2
Perhaps "Thought Crimes" should be reviewed by Pete Wells.
2
Doing online "research" on torture and kidnapping and casing victims through a police database is unarguably more than fantasy role play. I guess when the Tsarnaevs were doing online research on how to make a bomb, that was just them exercising their fantasy on being terrorists? Ech.
65
They might have been had they stopped short of using their knowledge. What seems most dangerous in doing such "research" or participating in such "communities" is that your grasp of reality becomes increasingly warped. At the start there might have been a bright line between what you knew to have been fantasy and what you knew to have been real. But become more and more enmeshed and addicted to a dysfunctional imaginary world and you might begin to act as if that world is real.
Tsarnaev committed no crime in consulting radical sites, reading directions to build bombs or even buying their components. He crossed the line when he planned to and then did use them. Who knows if this guy would have acted on his fantasies but it does seem like he was moving further from reality and closer to action the more "planning" steps he took. Was it real planning to be acted upon or some sick fantasy run amok? Maybe even he does not know.
Tsarnaev committed no crime in consulting radical sites, reading directions to build bombs or even buying their components. He crossed the line when he planned to and then did use them. Who knows if this guy would have acted on his fantasies but it does seem like he was moving further from reality and closer to action the more "planning" steps he took. Was it real planning to be acted upon or some sick fantasy run amok? Maybe even he does not know.
Funny, if he had written this about an elected official or the president he would have been locked up. Gray area indeed.
PS- I'm sure this documentary will go about as well as that of Durst for the subject.
PS- I'm sure this documentary will go about as well as that of Durst for the subject.
11
So exactly how do they convict people for conspiring to commit terrorist acts if all they're doing is talking about it? It's a pretty sad country that has to wait until someone commits an atrocity before acting.
25
Good heavens, Bkldy2004. Have we devolved so far so quickly that the notion of Thoughtcrime is no longer part of some alternate, futuristic dystopia? It's now called for by the compliant, terrified masses?
How do we convict people for terror conspiracy crimes, indeed. You should read a little more into the crimes committed the bogey-men (and women) trotted out for your entertainment pleasure!! (spoiler alert: not too long ago just about every case would be thrown out due to entrapment on the part of the investigators).
How do we convict people for terror conspiracy crimes, indeed. You should read a little more into the crimes committed the bogey-men (and women) trotted out for your entertainment pleasure!! (spoiler alert: not too long ago just about every case would be thrown out due to entrapment on the part of the investigators).
1
This is madness. A crime is only a crime once it's been committed. It is not "sad" that we have to wait for someone to commit a crime before arresting them. Have you not seen Minority Report, or read Big Brother?
Conspiracy to commit murder is a crime. Research is not. Research cannot, and must not, be made a crime, whether it is done on the Internet or in libraries.
It is unclear from this article whether this cop did much more than describe his fantasies, and research methods in detail. He also apparently used "surveillance" on his targets, which maybe should qualify as stalking. But did he commit any crime?
Did he conspire to murder them? Did he announce online that he had chosen a date, and a location, and planned to abduct them? Did he hire someone to help him, or make an agreement with another sicko to commit the crime?
All that is unclear to me. But if he didn't actually make plans with someone, or concretely announce his plans, then he never committed a crime and shouldn't be charged.
Let me repeat - research is not a crime.
Conspiracy to commit murder is a crime. Research is not. Research cannot, and must not, be made a crime, whether it is done on the Internet or in libraries.
It is unclear from this article whether this cop did much more than describe his fantasies, and research methods in detail. He also apparently used "surveillance" on his targets, which maybe should qualify as stalking. But did he commit any crime?
Did he conspire to murder them? Did he announce online that he had chosen a date, and a location, and planned to abduct them? Did he hire someone to help him, or make an agreement with another sicko to commit the crime?
All that is unclear to me. But if he didn't actually make plans with someone, or concretely announce his plans, then he never committed a crime and shouldn't be charged.
Let me repeat - research is not a crime.
4
" It's a pretty sad country that has to wait until someone commits an atrocity before acting"
We of the thought police are examining yours at this very moment.
The person who tormented you in grade three turned you in
We of the thought police are examining yours at this very moment.
The person who tormented you in grade three turned you in
2
Dude, you have some very strange, thoughts. Had I seen your writings, perhaps I would have contacted the authorities as well. Holy cow.
24
Haven't we taken serious action against people who trade in and frequent child pornography sites, not knowing whether they act on those fantasies or not? Why is it ok to protect children and not women from truly frightening online behavior?
33
I think there is a difference. Pornography sites feature photos and videos of actual children being abused and exploited--there's no fantasy, it's real.
11
A very valid point.
Valle is obviously not the only policeman with "cannibalism" feelings. Today I heard that yet another black person was killed by policemen. Who is going to stop these unneccesary killings? How many innocent poeple have to die before politics come to the conclusion that there is a hidden genocide going on in the USA? How long dos it take before UNO is goint to bring this to the International Court of Justice? The police force in the USA looks like a kind of ISIS, with the only difference that this is so called "legal killing". But it is obvious that this is objectively not the case! Every person, suspect or not, has the right for a court procedure. However in the blind folded mind of certain policemen the USA still need cowboys instead of justitional constables.
1
Dear CorvanderMey,
Sorry but the two things have absolutely nothing to do with eachother. I would bet that there are only a couple of other cops in the whole country that are interested in cannibalism, just like there are only a few thousands or tens of thousands of Americans with this particular psychological problem. Police shooting people unnecessarily does not mean they want to eat them, just as the people they're after that shoot people about a hundred times more often don't want to eat them either. And no I don't mean black people, but nor do cops only shoot black people.
Something else you might consider is that the cops are there to protect civilians, and do that extremely well the vast majority of the time. Less than 1% of all cops ever shoot someone for the wrong reasons, whereas most of the 10,000 civilian gun homicides yearly are for the wrong reasons. But none of that has anything to do with cannibalism, which was an acceptable and revered practice in many of our ancestors' cultures.
Sorry but the two things have absolutely nothing to do with eachother. I would bet that there are only a couple of other cops in the whole country that are interested in cannibalism, just like there are only a few thousands or tens of thousands of Americans with this particular psychological problem. Police shooting people unnecessarily does not mean they want to eat them, just as the people they're after that shoot people about a hundred times more often don't want to eat them either. And no I don't mean black people, but nor do cops only shoot black people.
Something else you might consider is that the cops are there to protect civilians, and do that extremely well the vast majority of the time. Less than 1% of all cops ever shoot someone for the wrong reasons, whereas most of the 10,000 civilian gun homicides yearly are for the wrong reasons. But none of that has anything to do with cannibalism, which was an acceptable and revered practice in many of our ancestors' cultures.
4
I find it dreadful that this man was almost, and still has the chance, of being locked up for this. Consider authors at this point. Murder novels are a potential way that an author can express the things they think about at night. Why are we not convicting them at this point? The only difference is the author of a book reached out for publication, while Mr. Valle reached out to the internet to express the thoughts that wallowed in his head. You can think about things and imagine things as you please. Since when did wonder become grounds for conviction?
14
Wonder, curiosity, research are not why he was in - and should return to - prison. Stalking, planning, purchases, illegal access to a police database, etc. all in furtherance of a planned crime involving torture, murder and cannibalism, with specific victims identified (including his ex-wife and at least one of her friends), were the reasons for his conviction. I find it dreadful and sick that this man is free, with the potential to committing a murder before he is locked up for good, or that he may actually be trying to profit from his criminal activities.
authors of murder novels don't use the trust placed in them as officers of the law to access a potential victim's address using a police database and then offer a few hundred dollars to an online buddy to kidnap said victim. If there's no such thing as conspiracy then there are a whole lot of people in prison who also need to be released.
1
Maria: where in the article does it say "then offer a few hundred dollars to an online buddy to kidnap said victim". I seem to have missed that part.
"Gray," expert Rowland? Judge already established " “No one was ever kidnapped, no attempted kidnapping ever took place, and no real-world, non-Internet-based steps were ever taken to kidnap anyone.” Many of us don't see any "gray." Only real facts count towards his conviction.
7
It was hard reading this story. I can't imagine trying to write it.
10
This is the new "reality" of online anonymity, fostering the ability of anyone to use the most vulgar language, detail the most hideous thoughts and advocate for the most outrageous action with impunity. I supposed we may have to get used to being called horrible names and enduring equally horrible threats and pray that no overt act will occur as a result.
17
Gunter Grass comes to mind, Tin Drum and all.
"His wife has since divorced him, the film says."
Huh, you don't say.
Huh, you don't say.
68
Come to think of it, wouldn't surprise me at all if she'd stood by her cannibal man, denying everything and defending him to the end. Happens all the time in domestic abuse cases, and in this one there wasn't even any physical abuse.
1
While this woman is doing what one would assume any wife who discovers that her husband has sadistic fantasies of murdering and eating her, as well as other women,,there are numerous women who have chosen not not to divorce their husbands,even after their own daughters have come to them and reported that the women’s husbands,,have raped or otherwise molested their own daughters. I have friends whose fathers molested them decades ago.Their mothers are still married to the men who have raped their own daughters,denying that this ever occurred.
The mother of a friend’s husband did not divorce him though she witnessed her husband placing her small son’s hands on a hot burner repeatedly to “punish him.”,otherwise abused the son,and beat the mother. She stayed with her husband until his dying day, in his 80s.
My friend’s sister has not divorced her husband,even though he is serving
a prison sentence for statutory rape, for having had sex with two 15 year old girls.He is due to be released from prison soon.
From what I’ve heard from my own friends, Mrs.Valle may be in the minority, in divorcing her husband, believing that her husband poses a danger to her safety.
The mother of a friend’s husband did not divorce him though she witnessed her husband placing her small son’s hands on a hot burner repeatedly to “punish him.”,otherwise abused the son,and beat the mother. She stayed with her husband until his dying day, in his 80s.
My friend’s sister has not divorced her husband,even though he is serving
a prison sentence for statutory rape, for having had sex with two 15 year old girls.He is due to be released from prison soon.
From what I’ve heard from my own friends, Mrs.Valle may be in the minority, in divorcing her husband, believing that her husband poses a danger to her safety.
6
that didn't happen, she testified against him and did not want him released for obvious reasons.
I recognize the gray area between thought and action, but when a person finally decides to open up about their socially unacceptable thoughts in an internet forum that promotes, and even celebrates such behavior, gray starts turning to black. There are other avenues. Mr. Valle knew these thoughts weren't socially acceptable, and rather than seek help, he sought anonymous celebrity.
All the one-upsmanship could push the thought into action, as it pushes thought into worse thought, and flip the switch. Online a person has to police themselves, just like offline. If they can't, they'll forever be in a boatload of trouble. This is something we have to be talking with our kids about regularly.
All the one-upsmanship could push the thought into action, as it pushes thought into worse thought, and flip the switch. Online a person has to police themselves, just like offline. If they can't, they'll forever be in a boatload of trouble. This is something we have to be talking with our kids about regularly.
48
"socially unacceptable" surely does not apply to posting bizarre and disgusting comments on obscure internet fora: they are not imposed on anyone. And if posting such comments amounts to crimes of "social acceptability" our prisons would be even more packed than they already are. Surely, as the judge correctly stated, a crime only occurs when some minimal identifiable practical steps have been initiated. Merely thinking about criminal activity does not a crime make no matter how abhorrent the thought.
3
Deep breath.
Literature - yes, 'good' literature - has always been a repository of the disturbing, whether it's Pentheus being hypnotized by Dionysus, dressed in drag, and literally torn apart by crazed women led by his own mother. Or Titus Andronicus or Atreus butchering the children of their antagonists and serving them in stew. Or Mrs Lovett and Sweeney Todd doing a good business in meat pies. Or ... no shortage of examples. It could be, and has been, argued that the purpose of fiction is cathartic, as a safe space to explore the socially unacceptable and purge strong feelings. And there was a time not so long ago when an interracial marriage, or a same-sex couple, or a child out of wedlock, would be deemed equally shocking to the Donner Party.
However, I'm not arguing that Valle produced great literature. Hardly. But neither was he producing fantasy, his insistence to the contrary notwithstanding. He crossed the line in attaching his fantasies to actual persons and making plausible, specific plans. Ever known someone who insults you and adds 'just kidding, heh heh'? Did you actually accept that disclaimer?
As Toni Morrison said, when someone shows you who he is, believe him the first time.
Literature - yes, 'good' literature - has always been a repository of the disturbing, whether it's Pentheus being hypnotized by Dionysus, dressed in drag, and literally torn apart by crazed women led by his own mother. Or Titus Andronicus or Atreus butchering the children of their antagonists and serving them in stew. Or Mrs Lovett and Sweeney Todd doing a good business in meat pies. Or ... no shortage of examples. It could be, and has been, argued that the purpose of fiction is cathartic, as a safe space to explore the socially unacceptable and purge strong feelings. And there was a time not so long ago when an interracial marriage, or a same-sex couple, or a child out of wedlock, would be deemed equally shocking to the Donner Party.
However, I'm not arguing that Valle produced great literature. Hardly. But neither was he producing fantasy, his insistence to the contrary notwithstanding. He crossed the line in attaching his fantasies to actual persons and making plausible, specific plans. Ever known someone who insults you and adds 'just kidding, heh heh'? Did you actually accept that disclaimer?
As Toni Morrison said, when someone shows you who he is, believe him the first time.
34
swm@ Excellent point....
Would men trolling child pornography websites also be given the benefit of the doubt?
We can be sure that they also had a "thought" that turned into action.
It is all sick and dangerous behavior....
Would men trolling child pornography websites also be given the benefit of the doubt?
We can be sure that they also had a "thought" that turned into action.
It is all sick and dangerous behavior....
7