I am concerned about this rush to judgment. It seems awfully convenient for the airline that the prosecutor's not only found a doctor's note, it was even torn up! And it was still in his room and was able to be reconstructed and read. This man (his memory) and his family are undergoing "trial by Internet" right now and there is a non-zero chance that we are not being told the entire truth and he did not intentionally kill all those people.
Maybe he did do it on purpose. But the way the accusations were made public so quickly seems like a procedural choice that will inevitably lead to an innocent person being vilified in the media and the family's lives destroyed (and maybe a big company avoiding liability and accountability). Maybe I just want this to be an accident.
There is another possibility: perhaps he had a bad reaction to 1 new drug or a combination of drugs, one of which was new. Many antidepressants carry warnings that they may cause an increase in suicidal thoughts.
I would be really surprised if airline pilots here in the US are required to be on no medication or no medication for mental illness. In the US if you go to the doctor and they ask what meds you are on and you say "none", they are shocked. It seems like almost everyone is on an antidepressant. Many people are on several other things as well. They haven't tested all drug combinations on all types of people. I would like to hear what the rules are for med use and flying.
Maybe he did do it on purpose. But the way the accusations were made public so quickly seems like a procedural choice that will inevitably lead to an innocent person being vilified in the media and the family's lives destroyed (and maybe a big company avoiding liability and accountability). Maybe I just want this to be an accident.
There is another possibility: perhaps he had a bad reaction to 1 new drug or a combination of drugs, one of which was new. Many antidepressants carry warnings that they may cause an increase in suicidal thoughts.
I would be really surprised if airline pilots here in the US are required to be on no medication or no medication for mental illness. In the US if you go to the doctor and they ask what meds you are on and you say "none", they are shocked. It seems like almost everyone is on an antidepressant. Many people are on several other things as well. They haven't tested all drug combinations on all types of people. I would like to hear what the rules are for med use and flying.
11
Under Precision Medicine, he would be screened for genetic glitches, and the presence of toxins, that may be triggering both the psychiatric and vision related problems. Functional medicine gives the potential of being diagnosed with a cause, not just a label, and to receive targeted and more effective treatments.
1
Pilots, at least in the US, have medical examines every year, sometimes every half year. There is absolutely no way that making pilot's medical condition available to the public will improve flight safety. It is more likely to have the opposite effect.
Just look at the public/voter's ability to pick competent politicians! Lately we see a very high number of completely incompetent and out of touch politicians being voted into office, which is part of the reason for a number of today's problems with flight safety, the destruction of the economy and justice as well. This problem increased after the election of the incompetent Reagan for President, and almost destroyed the country after the election or Supreme Court appointed W. Bush.
Just look at the public/voter's ability to pick competent politicians! Lately we see a very high number of completely incompetent and out of touch politicians being voted into office, which is part of the reason for a number of today's problems with flight safety, the destruction of the economy and justice as well. This problem increased after the election of the incompetent Reagan for President, and almost destroyed the country after the election or Supreme Court appointed W. Bush.
3
The only questions i have:
why on earth was he allowed to fly?
with his long history of depressions during his period of training ?
why got he the licence to fly with all the problems he had already at this time?
what happend in his social backround and how can it be that no one in his social environment noticed the gravity of his mentally problems?
isn´t it a topic that is treated in society with averted eyes and not wanting to get involved, as good as ignored?
why on earth was he allowed to fly?
with his long history of depressions during his period of training ?
why got he the licence to fly with all the problems he had already at this time?
what happend in his social backround and how can it be that no one in his social environment noticed the gravity of his mentally problems?
isn´t it a topic that is treated in society with averted eyes and not wanting to get involved, as good as ignored?
4
THE NYT AND THE OTHER SERIOUS MEDIA ARE MAKING AN ERROR
Because about 200 people wee killed, the safety of commercial air travel is the safest and most convenient. (Far more persons are killed and injured on the road.
But, this is a special and unusual circumstance: it was the cause of a pilot with unreported mental and physical problems who seems to have with deliberation killed himself and all others. Why is this news and the lead story all over? Because it is an minor outlier. It is important? Only to the folks and families involved.
It is so rare that it falls under the rubric of, "if it bleeds, it leads." So the NYT paces it a multi-column story on the right in the upper fold.
Foolish priorities.
Because about 200 people wee killed, the safety of commercial air travel is the safest and most convenient. (Far more persons are killed and injured on the road.
But, this is a special and unusual circumstance: it was the cause of a pilot with unreported mental and physical problems who seems to have with deliberation killed himself and all others. Why is this news and the lead story all over? Because it is an minor outlier. It is important? Only to the folks and families involved.
It is so rare that it falls under the rubric of, "if it bleeds, it leads." So the NYT paces it a multi-column story on the right in the upper fold.
Foolish priorities.
6
As a resident of France I have been following this disaster through different international media. It is clear that issues of confidentiality and safety are managed and regulated differently in various places. Two points : in the US, the "Terasoff rule", named for the victim of a psychiatric patient whose therapist revealed a death threat which, when acted upon, resulted in allowing breach of confidentiality in situations where patients pose a clear and imminent danger to others. However, as many have remarked, assessing Lubitz's level of danger apparently would have been difficult. All the same - the second point - Lubitz had ignored and in fact torn up a sick leave medical order stating his inaptitude to work - perhaps a system to automatically inform employers in this type of high-responsibility profession of a worker's diagnosed professionally unfit state needs to be considered.
4
Isn't the doctor a mandated reporter on capacity issues re flight?
5
The blame for this accident lies with A: Lufthansa and B: Aviation authority/way system works. It's really very simple. Being a pilot is a hugely responsible job and as such there need to be a regular health check with a company doctor whose obligation is to report the medical status / outcome to the employer. It's that simple. Relying on the crazy guy reporting his craziness voluntarily is even more insane...None of that, including MH370 would never happen...
5
Policy decisions should not be based on a single bizarre act. Dangerousness is almost impossible to predict. If it were possible to know what strange reasons Lubitz felt for driving the jet into the mountain--especially after having nightmares in which he screamed "we're going down!" I wonder if it would be possible to prevent such tragedies.
http://www.thecriticalmom.blogspot.com
http://www.thecriticalmom.blogspot.com
8
Who is going to seek help (voluntarily, not via the courts) when he/she knows that by just seeking such help all sorts of employment options will become permanently closed? Mr. Lubitz feared losing his pilot's license and his job. Similar (though usually less tragic) things happen in the United States every day. People fear losing their drivers' licenses, professional licenses usually needed for work in their perspective fields, and the ability to legally own and carry firearms. Never mind obtaining and maintaining both life and medical insurance. Until mental illness is treated as an illness and some protections put in place most victims will hide their conditions from current and possibly future employers. I realize that this is little comfort to the 149 people who died and their grieving families, though.
14
Another good reason to investigate if and how Lufthansa did and does all due controls on its Pilots.
Germans are so proud to their rules' respect principle that it will be a great smash not joust for Lufthansa, but for all the self supposed perfect German National organization.
Germans are so proud to their rules' respect principle that it will be a great smash not joust for Lufthansa, but for all the self supposed perfect German National organization.
4
We will never know what really happened. We can only surmise. Government regulators and airlines need to take a careful look at what could/should be done, and take well thought out steps. Over-reacting will only cause needless problems.
6
I immediately blamed antidepressants as soon as I read that this crash was deliberate, and now I feel validated. Read up on any mass killing in the US or Europe since the '90s onward, and you'll notice that the killer was on them.
Having past experience with antidepressants myself, they made me act in self-destructive ways that I had never even thought of while un-medicated. I can easily understand how they can push someone who is borderline violent completely over the edge.
Too bad the dangers of antidepressants are glossed over by doctors, the media, and the pharmaceutical companies alike. How many lives could have been saved if we didn't hand these dangerous drugs out like aspirin?
Having past experience with antidepressants myself, they made me act in self-destructive ways that I had never even thought of while un-medicated. I can easily understand how they can push someone who is borderline violent completely over the edge.
Too bad the dangers of antidepressants are glossed over by doctors, the media, and the pharmaceutical companies alike. How many lives could have been saved if we didn't hand these dangerous drugs out like aspirin?
25
I've never used antidepressants. But attempts to use drugs that were supposed to help me with my Neuropathy did cause depression. The doctor's suggestion that I add an antidepressant to counteract the action of Gabapentin, Lyrica or Cymbalta was very unsatisfactory to me. I decided to avoid that class of drugs completely and live with the pain.
3
why do "patient privacy laws" apply to someone who is no longer alive?
19
From the beginning, when it was first revealed that the co-pilot had done this, I've felt nothing but sorrow for all the passengers & crew members loved ones and families. But also, all the bigger airline industry as a whole. The Germanwings & Lufthansa employee "family" are no doubt mourning as well. As an Army Nurse Corps officer, when the FT Hood shootings occured, I felt like I'd been kicked in the gut, personally betrayed. When someone in your actual family, your corporate family, your military family betrays the most basic of trusts, it's almost more than one can bear. My sympathies and condolences go out to all of the families involvved.
17
There should be an alternative method for flying personal to gain access to the cockpit. They should really look into it.
4
The whole thing was designed to keep potential hijackers and suicidal minded people out. In some airlines, they arrange to have another member of the crew present in the cockpit whenever the captain or the co-pilot needs to take a break. This way, there is someone always keeping an eye on goings on in the cockpit.
7
What do his vision problems have to do with locking the pilot out of the cockpit moments before crashing the plane?
11
Didn't you read the story? This man lived to fly. He'd been at it since he was 14. He even went back to re-certify on the gliders he'd started with. I don't think he wanted to live unless he could pilot a plane.
1
Regarding physician-patient confidentiality: there is a famous case called Tarasoff in California that imposes a duty to warn on mental health professionals who know about a patient's imminent danger to a third party. With regard to attorney-client privilege, the prevailing ethics rule is that the attorney is allowed (but not required) to breach the client's confidence to prevent serious imminent bodily injury or death. With regard to clergy-penitent privilege, well that's between the clergyman and his/her God.
7
We do not know what happened.
6
That co-pilot is dead. But they are still hiding his medical issues?? That sounds stupid.
11
Did Lubitz email a copy of his doctor's note, or fax it, to his employer before he ripped it up? That, I want to know. While it does nothing to exonerate him, if ithe doctor's note was sent and denied.... matters... because it could help explain an anger he might have had and a desire to humiliate his employers. It could also shed light on how airline employers deal with sickness reported by their pilots.
How this went down is critical.
How this went down is critical.
9
In Germany a sick letter can't be denied by an employer. And usually you have to hand in the hardcopy. So even if he faxed or emailed it he would have been supposed to bring the actual paper too.
5
If the co-pilot had psychological issues, why wasn't he in psychotherapy of some kind (cognitive therapy or old-fashioned talking cure)? His psychotherapist, if he had one, would have been able to alert the airline or at least come forward now and explain to the rightly curious public the state of mind of this young man. Cognitive therapy is at least as effective for treatment of ordinary depression as psychotropic drugs and does not have their side-effects. And no, I have no vested interest in this issue: not only am I not a psychotherapist, I have never felt the need to consult one.
4
I received a summons with a threat of arrest for 1 unpaid $25.00 parking ticket in a small Pennsylania municipality- yet Mr. Lubitz somehow was given responsibility of an aircraft with 150 souls on board.
6
Lubitz was a striver - and not a very successful one. He's described in the popular press as a 'fitness fanatic' and a keen runner, but his time of 1 hour 48 minutes and 51seconds in the Frankfurt 2013 1/2 marathon suggest otherwise.
In all the photos I've seen of Lubitz in a race, he's curiously overdressed compared with the other competitors. Overdressing causes overheating and is not a successful strategy for fast times - as I can testify from personal experience of many years of club competition..
Lubitz loses his long-time girlfriend. It seems he's about to lose his job and career, and his income and his independence if he can't find re-employment. It's all coming apart. He's angry and alone. He's vain and self-centred. Après moi Le Deluge.
In all the photos I've seen of Lubitz in a race, he's curiously overdressed compared with the other competitors. Overdressing causes overheating and is not a successful strategy for fast times - as I can testify from personal experience of many years of club competition..
Lubitz loses his long-time girlfriend. It seems he's about to lose his job and career, and his income and his independence if he can't find re-employment. It's all coming apart. He's angry and alone. He's vain and self-centred. Après moi Le Deluge.
15
Whatever his personal issues were, it was incredibly cruel and selfish of him to take the lives of those passengers and crew just because he couldn't continue his flying career. That's psychopathic behavior. He decided to inflict as much pain and suffering as he could to as many people as he could, like he was taking his problems out on society as a whole. That's just evil.
18
According to the evidence thus far; his behaviour s sociopathic.
Rage kindled by a narcissistic injury in his personal life .
Pathological lying along with grandiosity as evidenced by "off work" advice not taken and the dismissal of physician's concern.
It seems likely that he was not taking the medication prescribed for depression. Psychopaths rarely defer to the experts.
The depression worsened. He was out of control and this could not be tolerated.
I do not see his actions as impulsive. He planned the whole thing.
Once decided, he disasocciated and calmly carried out his mission.
a rekindling of abandonment issues following
Rage kindled by a narcissistic injury in his personal life .
Pathological lying along with grandiosity as evidenced by "off work" advice not taken and the dismissal of physician's concern.
It seems likely that he was not taking the medication prescribed for depression. Psychopaths rarely defer to the experts.
The depression worsened. He was out of control and this could not be tolerated.
I do not see his actions as impulsive. He planned the whole thing.
Once decided, he disasocciated and calmly carried out his mission.
a rekindling of abandonment issues following
10
While privacy of medical record of pilots is a controversial issue, whast needs to be done is to insall a video camera in the cockpit. The video feed and flight data needs to be transmitted to a command center on ground. At least we will know what happened when something goes wrong. Pilot association is vehemntly opposed to installation of video camera in the cockpit. Why? It is time we changed these archaic rules that have been in place for the last eighty years. If passengar is required to go through body scans to bare bones before boarding a plane, then why should cockpit not be videotaped? At the very least, a compromise can be reached that if the flight was normal then video is authomatically erased upon landing. Any arguments about pilot's privacy in cockpit are trumped by public safety and public's right to know what went wrong in case of an accident.
16
I agree, as a flight attendant for 30 years, I think there should be cameras in the cockpit. Being in the US, as a working flight attendant, I have sat in the pilots seat when one went to the restroom, it's a deterrent like many procedures instituted after 9/11, but it works!
Nothing has happened in the US since we have been doing it.
Nothing has happened in the US since we have been doing it.
4
Actually, I'm starting to wonder if maybe he had a neurological problem, like MS. Vision problems are often one of the first symptoms of that, and some mental health changes can also be a part of that. That would be a devastating end to your dreams of flying. The Germans are pretty tight-lipped on private health information, so we may never find out.
21
Jill, you may have hit the nail on the head. I was actually thinking the same thing. Could be.
5
Not to mention the fact that his body may not be recovered.
5
MILLIONS of people suffer from depression and drive cars every day.
To the multitudes who are posting comments about the dire threat that individuals suffering from depression( allegedly )pose I ask:
Do you go on the roadways?If so,why? There are millions of drivers who are suffering from depression,who are driving beside you on their way to their jobs as your doctors,lawyers,accountants,dentists, and so forth,if they don’t kill you in their offices.
To the multitudes who are posting comments about the dire threat that individuals suffering from depression( allegedly )pose I ask:
Do you go on the roadways?If so,why? There are millions of drivers who are suffering from depression,who are driving beside you on their way to their jobs as your doctors,lawyers,accountants,dentists, and so forth,if they don’t kill you in their offices.
20
Whole different deal, because if you are driving on a roadway you can practice defensive driving techniques and have some chance of avoiding collision. As an airline passenger you are completely under the pilot's control.
9
Anybody who tries to spin Mr. Lubitz's eye problems as anything other than a minor, contributing factor is fooling themselves. He didn't go psychosomatically blind at the last moment, and accidentally steer that plane in the Alps. This man was a malignant narcissist, or a sociopath. He killed 149 people along with himself in an unforgettable manner in order to gain notoriety, a kind of grim immortality.
Statements from his recent ex-girlfriend, reported in a Guardian article, are the most helpful thing I've seen about this tragedy. She was a flight attendant on several of his flights, and they dated for about 5 months before she broke it off due to his problems. At one point, he said to her: “One day I will do something that will change the whole system, and then all will know my name and remember it.” She said he woke up from a nightmare screaming "We are going down!". Whether this nightmare was real, or faked, it doesn't matter now. I see him as cut from the same cloth as mass murders who use guns to ambush and murder a mass of people before turning their weapon on themselves.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/27/germanwings-co-pilot-andrea...
14
I don't think that a malignant narcissist or a sociopath interested in being known would have stayed silent for those eight minutes.
Of course, once you have bought in to the "he was crazy" narrative, you can argue "he was crazy" as a response to any argument, no matter how logical.
Of course, once you have bought in to the "he was crazy" narrative, you can argue "he was crazy" as a response to any argument, no matter how logical.
3
Even though "Bild" (quoted in The Guardian) is a tabloid, saying "We're going down" is not necessarily telling of the future. Possibly many pilots have dreams of crashes at some time. And why would you say "faked nightmare?" And, just because of a nightmare, it may have nothing to do with grandiose statements such as "they will all know my name...", etc. They may be unrelated.
Further, one does not "go psychosomatically blind"; psychosomatic is a term used in Germany for "psychiatric." And if he did indeed have recently diagnosed vision problems, it may possibly end his career which could be a motive for the crash rather than "instant blindness".
While this story began as a mystery, it seems now to be spinning into many unlikely directions, mostly wild speculation. The truth is that we will never really know.
Further, one does not "go psychosomatically blind"; psychosomatic is a term used in Germany for "psychiatric." And if he did indeed have recently diagnosed vision problems, it may possibly end his career which could be a motive for the crash rather than "instant blindness".
While this story began as a mystery, it seems now to be spinning into many unlikely directions, mostly wild speculation. The truth is that we will never really know.
12
@fran soyer in ny: what you are saying is also speculation. A sociopath who didn't want to his pilot to know what he was doing might have stayed silent. This seems like an unimportant detail, unless you favor the theory he passed out, which the authorities say is unlikely because the plane was actively steered downward. As for "the crazy narrative", sociopathic behavior is to crazy as robbing a bank is to standing in its lobby giving an incoherent speech about aliens. We aren't looking for logic here in any case.
@Lori in New York: He may have faked the nightmare as part of attempting to let his girlfriend not only how sick he was, but what he intended to do. I think he planned all of this.
As for going 'psychosomatically blind', that is exactly what happens in cases of hysterical blindness. The person's eyes work properly, but they can't see. I have no idea what sort of vision problems he had, but for an article to suggest a psychological component to his eye problems is misleading, as though to suggest a possible explanation for what happened. I'm saying that isn't what happened. I'm saying the man crashed his plane on purpose, not because he couldn't see, no matter what the cause of his possible blindness. I don't think this story is going off in all directions. I believe a man seeking notoriety murdered all of his passengers while killing himself deliberately.
2
I think it will be important to find out how long he had been taking the antidepressants, if at all. I cannot say if it has been described in the medical literature (surely pharma would try to suppress such findings), but anectodally there seems to be this phenomenon during the first 2-3 weeks of starting or scaling up to full dose of, say, an SSRI, for example, where some sort of dark force compels the person to, for example, swerve into the other lane of on-coming traffic or to throw herself/himself from a balcony. If Mr. Lubitz had been on the same medication(s) and same dose for many months or years, this is unlikely to explain his behavior. I would just like to see someone look into it—even if it can only potentially save lives going forward. NYT, your reporting on this has been essential. Thank you.
9
One key piece of information we haven’t heard reported was the aspiration rate of Andreas Lubitz prior to impact. It’s to believe that someone who is about to take his and the lives of everyone else onboard wouldn’t have a rapid breathing rate.
If his breathing rate was slow and consistent it suggests he was incapacitated or simply fell asleep. A pilot stressed about the possibility of loosing his job might not have slept well the night before. Every pilot who has ever flown will tell there has been more than once they felt sleepy, fought to stay awake. We also don’t know what medications he was prescribed and taking.
A pilot with visions problems or who is groggy could easy have set the flight control VS to descend inadvertently.
We also need to know more about the cockpit door lock and override system. Could it be the pilot had the wrong code and couldn’t override the lock setting?
Clearly there is much damning evidence emerging about Lubitz's history of depression, his concealing info about his medical conditions, and tabloid commentaries emerging, possibly poorly translated versions, that has his girl friend making him out to be a scary guy. I hope there will be a focus on due diligence, not a rush to the quick easy, most salacious conclusions.
Again, it just seems odd that someone, even someone prone to depression, could just calmly sit by for 9 or 10 minutes as the plane slowly descends to its demise. Was he conscious?
If his breathing rate was slow and consistent it suggests he was incapacitated or simply fell asleep. A pilot stressed about the possibility of loosing his job might not have slept well the night before. Every pilot who has ever flown will tell there has been more than once they felt sleepy, fought to stay awake. We also don’t know what medications he was prescribed and taking.
A pilot with visions problems or who is groggy could easy have set the flight control VS to descend inadvertently.
We also need to know more about the cockpit door lock and override system. Could it be the pilot had the wrong code and couldn’t override the lock setting?
Clearly there is much damning evidence emerging about Lubitz's history of depression, his concealing info about his medical conditions, and tabloid commentaries emerging, possibly poorly translated versions, that has his girl friend making him out to be a scary guy. I hope there will be a focus on due diligence, not a rush to the quick easy, most salacious conclusions.
Again, it just seems odd that someone, even someone prone to depression, could just calmly sit by for 9 or 10 minutes as the plane slowly descends to its demise. Was he conscious?
16
A person asleep can't repeatedly push the DENY ENTRY button-- at the correct time to keep the door locked. Read about and understand how the locking functions on the door works.
8
You just can't change inadvertently the flight path after disconnecting the autopilot on an A320....2 different steps while being sleepy??
3
A danger lies in trying too hard to prevent weird dangers in aviation. We may soon weed-out depressed pilots but in so doing select for another danger like inexperience (depression increases with age). This very accident is a perfect example of unintended consequences wherein a highly secure cockpit door prevented the pilot from taking action to save the plane. We should bear in mind that perfect safety is impossible and focus on systemic and not weird dangers.
12
After this event, people with a diagnosis of depression will be even more reluctant to reveal their suffering to anyone, lest they be thought to be on the verge of mass-murder. This tragedy will be further compounded by adding to the stigma suffered by those with depression.
18
And they would presumably be more inclined to deal with their problems through things like alcohol -- as so many pilots already do.
2
We stigmatize all kinds of things that endanger others. It's called public safety. It does NOT mean we do not have compassion for a sufferer. It means that we have compassion for his/her neighbors as well.
3
The pure sadness of this event cannot be effectively verbalized for both the victims as well as the perpetrator. My empathy extends to both. It has become clear via disclosed information that the co-pilot, Andreas, had an episode of universal mental dysfunction to which I lack the expertise or credentials to discuss.
Nonetheless, I am compelled to voice an anguish for the actions he felt compelled to take as he viewed his world implode. There is no rationale that excuses him from moral culpability but, perhaps, there is an understanding that we each may reach limits beyond which neither our minds nor hearts can go. We each and all can and may break given the specific triggers.
As ws mourn the deaths of innocents, mourn also this soul so torn he could see no future or hope beyond that terrible crash of annihilation. Feel compassion for his family who now endures the loss of a much loved Son as well as the shame and humiliation of claiming him as Son and watching their love break as each body part is recovered. There but for the grace of God go we all. Life is fragile as is health. We all pivot in delicate balance.
Nonetheless, I am compelled to voice an anguish for the actions he felt compelled to take as he viewed his world implode. There is no rationale that excuses him from moral culpability but, perhaps, there is an understanding that we each may reach limits beyond which neither our minds nor hearts can go. We each and all can and may break given the specific triggers.
As ws mourn the deaths of innocents, mourn also this soul so torn he could see no future or hope beyond that terrible crash of annihilation. Feel compassion for his family who now endures the loss of a much loved Son as well as the shame and humiliation of claiming him as Son and watching their love break as each body part is recovered. There but for the grace of God go we all. Life is fragile as is health. We all pivot in delicate balance.
19
This is true compassion. Lovely sentiment, though difficult. All those innocent people, murdered senselessly- if he was indeed conscious and not asleep or drugged as some suggest.
Makes one wonder if similar circumstances were involved in unsolved / unrecovered "lost" Asian flight.
Yes, all who knew and loved those 150 souls will suffer.
Me, I am not sure if I will fly again.
Makes one wonder if similar circumstances were involved in unsolved / unrecovered "lost" Asian flight.
Yes, all who knew and loved those 150 souls will suffer.
Me, I am not sure if I will fly again.
2
It has been claimed that the software in the Airbus fly-by-wire system prevents the pilot from any maneuver that would destroy the aircraft. If not, such software could easily be created. Some aircraft are are already built with a GPS system (just like in your car) that senses the plane's latitude and longitude anywhere on the Earth. Further, a third dimension memory could easily be added that includes the safe altitude for every latitude-and-longitude location on Earth. The result would be a worldwide map in the memory of the autopilot that prevents navigating the plane to an unsafe altitude anywhere on Earth. Produced in volume, such (two-dimentional) GPS devices (with every street map on the Earth in their memories) now sell retail for a couple of hundred dollars. Why are three-dimensional GPSs not required on commercial airliners? They would absolutely prevent the use of an airliner as a bomb (like at the World Trade Center) or as a suicide device.
10
Hmm. Would it have prevented Sully from landing on the Hudson?
6
Good point Anj - but presumably not if the sensor indicated engine damage from flying geese.
1
Exactly. The previous comment is such total rubbish, from someone whose knowledge of flight clearly goes no further than the GPS in his car, and pretending such ignorance would "absolutely" prevent suicide, clearly is most unlikely to know that Captain Sullenberger broke every "rule" in saving all onboard another A320 Airbus by landing the plane on the Hudson, something that the genius Mr. Sanders undoubtly knows nothing about.
The latest news report, as of 10pm, central time, says that investigators found "large amounts" of anti-depressant prescription drugs in Lubitz's appartment. This means there is no question that Lubitz was taking these drugs, and he had been doing so for a long time, plenty of time for undesirable side effects to manifest.
7
Actually, if there are "large quantities" it suggests he did not take the drugs. he had prescriptions filled but did not take them, or else there would be empty bottles or none.
18
Why would he fill the prescriptions but not take the pills? Anti-depressant drugs are too expensive to pay for them and just let them sit around unused.
2
Actually, anti-depressants and many other medicines are quite cheap, especially in Germany.
6
So the reason for privacy is what - to protect a person suffering from a medical illness which could lead to discrimination by an employer or the general public? Is the real problem the bigotry on the part of the public against people with AIDS or mental illness? Shouldn't a company hiring you for a job where there is a risk of huge liability losses or harm to users of the company's products or services trump any privacy rights you the employee have? Shouldn't I as a potential date have the right to know if you have AIDS? I just don't get it.
4
Vision problems do not explain this co-pilot locking himself in the cockpit.
There are issues here ...
There are issues here ...
10
Actually vision problems are a symptom of conversion disorder, a psychosomatic illness. I'm sure that's one of the things the investigators are looking into.
3
Conversion disorders are controversial. They may or may not exist. If they do exist, they are extremely rare. My guess is that he had an actual eye problem that in conjunction with other issues lead to depression and obviously anger. This does not excuse the murder of all of those innocent people but may be what happened. It still doesn't make sense but this never could actually make sense.
7
"Conversion disorder" is a euphemism for "hypochondria." It means the doctor thinks the patient's ailments are imaginary. Visual problems are among the many published side effects of anti-depressant prescription drugs, such as the ones Lubitz was using.
9
Honestly I dont know what people could have done. You cant sack anyone on antidepressants. You cannot force people to disclose their health problems. Whose fault other than his own?
Terrible. But can start with that silly door and two in the cabin.
Terrible. But can start with that silly door and two in the cabin.
13
No, you shouldn't sack a person for being sick, but you can certainly place him in a job that does not carry such a critical need for mental stability.
3
Now there is a reliable source, an X girlfriend.
21
It is often the withdrawal syndrome from a ssri or similar drug that can cause aggressive, patanoid and violent behavior. Ssri withdrawal syndrome is a widely known yey poorly taught subject to docyirs abd patients alike. Many of the violent school shootings and mass murders of the past years have been tied to the killers suffering from these withdrawal symptoms. They can happen regardless if the patient weans off the drug or stops cold turkey. They can also trick a patient into thinking they are relapsing back into depression or anxiety when they are actually simply experiencing withdrawals. A recent study recommended that drug companies include a warning about ssri withdrawal syndrome on all ssri literature and bottles but it has not happened yet.
22
It is not often. It can happen but is rare. It needs closer monitoring but is atypical.
6
It's not at all rare with people who have mutations in the xenobiotics metabolism, like Cyp450. Side-effects are not something you win in the lottery.
2
The doctor who wrote that he should not fly, had a duty to contact his employer. Airlines to encourage pilots to disclose health issues should put them on full pay leave until they recover or pay for a generous separation package.
17
Personally, it is not at all clear to me (1) exactly what the note said, and (2) what its implications were under generally accepted German practices. Was the point of the note to tell Lubitz that he must not fly or was it (as is so often the case in the US when people need an excuse for not going to work) to give him a medical excuse that would be satisfactory to his employer if he didn't go to work that day.
2
Perhaps the headline would be more effective if it fronted the pilot's being treated for psychological issues, as opposed to an attempt to blame "vision problems". There's no known "vision problem" that causes someone to (a) intentionally lock a cockpit door while (b) intentionally aim a plane into the ground.
"It is not clear how severe his eye problems were ..."
It's not clear how this has any relevance whatsoever to someone who intentionally drove an aircraft of 150 people into a mountain. Yet it has apparently been important enough to proclaim the pilot had "vision problems" as opposed to proclaiming he was mentally unfit.
"It is not clear how severe his eye problems were ..."
It's not clear how this has any relevance whatsoever to someone who intentionally drove an aircraft of 150 people into a mountain. Yet it has apparently been important enough to proclaim the pilot had "vision problems" as opposed to proclaiming he was mentally unfit.
9
You have no basis for saying that "there's no known 'vision problem' that causes someone to..." etc. There are apparently a host of interrelated vision and psychological diseases known to medical science, including some that involve hallucination and psychosis.
2
This man lived to fly. He'd been at it since 14. He had just re-certified on gliders something he would only need to fly as a hobby today. He desired pilot status and these problems were going to impede that desire. For him life without flying wasn't worth living.
This is highly sad news but its not the business of Americans to judge about this. Perhaps there is another understanding amongst Europeans that non-Europeans are overlooking. The suicide mission is unfortunate and not sure why the passengers deserve to die. Its kinda selfish for a pilot to kill 150 innocent people.
4
My car is almost like my self propelled wheelchair now that I have a spinal problem. I am able to wwalk thank god and catch buses and tubes . I am lucky I live in London the transport is good if you're not a commuteron a 9-5 mon to Fri routine.
I can't describe the freedom I feel with driving even though my car is a clapped out Ford. I have bipolar disorder in spite of this I have been lucky to have worked up to 62 when they retired me off.
I worked in community mental health and would have been unable to do my job without a car. I have an analyst jungian who I have known since 1978. I have spent many years in different parts of England and some time abroad but I have always been in touch with him. The odd letter odd visit. I have been back in London for 15 years and restatrted my analysis seriouly a few years back. I have been depressed and I have been high but hopefully I have never put anyone's life at risk. I have worried about my clients probably more than people with families who have to go home and be besieged by a whole set of other problems. I had very few single friends of my age and can honestly say I didn't know how lonely I was until I started taking in male lodgers.
This is far too long winded for the new York times but I certainly held back a lot of information from my employer s when I was seeking employment because I don't think they would employ me.
I can't describe the freedom I feel with driving even though my car is a clapped out Ford. I have bipolar disorder in spite of this I have been lucky to have worked up to 62 when they retired me off.
I worked in community mental health and would have been unable to do my job without a car. I have an analyst jungian who I have known since 1978. I have spent many years in different parts of England and some time abroad but I have always been in touch with him. The odd letter odd visit. I have been back in London for 15 years and restatrted my analysis seriouly a few years back. I have been depressed and I have been high but hopefully I have never put anyone's life at risk. I have worried about my clients probably more than people with families who have to go home and be besieged by a whole set of other problems. I had very few single friends of my age and can honestly say I didn't know how lonely I was until I started taking in male lodgers.
This is far too long winded for the new York times but I certainly held back a lot of information from my employer s when I was seeking employment because I don't think they would employ me.
9
Vision is the only health sphere where arbitrary theories contradict established records of safe vehicle operation.
We don't really know what in that cockpit and we will probably never know for sure. It is possible that it was not intentional. All we really know is that Lubitz continued breathe until impact. He could have been incapacitated in some way. He could have had a stroke or a brain aneurism.
7
But a person who has cognitive deficits due to any type of vascular problem in the brain cannot lock a plane door, take a plane off autopilot, and reprogram it to descend into a mountain. It's one or the other, and it's clear from the definite actions of the co-pilot that he was not suffering from organic brain disease.
4
Exactly. All these "he could have had this or that"
suppositions - why would these conditions occur just at the second the pilot steps out of the cockpit?!
suppositions - why would these conditions occur just at the second the pilot steps out of the cockpit?!
3
Person having a stroke or aneurism cannot repeatedly push the DENY ENTRY button, just at the right time, in order to keep the door locked.
1
Good lord, if this man was depressed, it was certainly garden variety depression. He made it to work every day, managed his life, maintained a relationship. I'm astonished that so many people seem to think that someone like Lubitz should have been or could have been picked out as a suicidal cum homicidal type because he "suffered from depression." There was obviously a good deal more wrong with him than a bit of the blues; his behavior speaks more of sociopathy than depression, and those who seem to think that depression is somehow a related syndrome, or that depressives now need to be weeded out of occupations like aviation are way over the top. What next? Denying driver's licenses because someone has seasonal affective disorder? Those who are clamoring for these kinds of precautionary measures to keep them "safe" need to be careful about what they're wishing for.
46
True. Being depressed and being homicidal are entirely different things.
18
So... I agree with you; however, if he was lucid & conscious during descent (and it seems likely, though the breaking on the black box record suggests perhaps otherwise)... I have to add that there are many people who experience mixed state depression and are much more functional than those with straight depression. Such a condition may lead to suicidal motivations.
Individuals with mixed states, such as those in crisis or dealing with massive changes (like losing vision or facing the end of a career one always dreamed of)... Can be unpredictable. It can happen to anyone in crisis without adequate support.
This is not an issue of mental illness or diagnosis, this is an issue of society not being community based and leaving folks in crisis on their own, and yes, those individuals more sensitive may flip. We need more community, more support and more safe guards for those in crisis.
Individuals with mixed states, such as those in crisis or dealing with massive changes (like losing vision or facing the end of a career one always dreamed of)... Can be unpredictable. It can happen to anyone in crisis without adequate support.
This is not an issue of mental illness or diagnosis, this is an issue of society not being community based and leaving folks in crisis on their own, and yes, those individuals more sensitive may flip. We need more community, more support and more safe guards for those in crisis.
4
Beyond the total screwup in knowing what was going on in his head, I believe I read someplace on here in another article on this that Lubitz had a total of 630 hours flying time. if that is correct, it is far, far too few to have him as first officer on an AB 320. And the suicide aside..... a very inexperienced person ( I hesitate to use the word pilot) left alone in the cockpit at that.
9
If Lubitz deliberately crashed the plane, then it is completely irrelevant about how many hours of flight time he had.
6
This man also saw a neurologist....Someone below,an opthomalogist,stated this guy would not just suddenly have visual problems and that his visual problems WOULD have been detected during his physical exam. Anyone know the symptoms of multiple sclerosis? I do...I have Multiple Sclerosis. One of the first things to happen to someone to get their diagnosis of MS,is optic neuritis. Symptoms are blurred vision,blindness in one eye,double vision....depression is ALWAYS,a symptom,that start's before any of the neurological symptom's,like optic neuritis start. We,with MS,can look totally fine,healthy,etc....to the public,but we aren't. Multiple Sclerosis,is also a "do I disclose or don't I disclose this illness to my employer"issue. It is also,a very very very discriminatory disease. I am a nurse,I know this. Or,shall I say,I was....d/t job discrimination. Which resulted in severe,severe depression,when my employer told me a. I cost wayyy to much to insure b. harassed me,to the point the ms society in D.C. contacted me to hear my story....I cannot accept this guy committed suicide and took others with him due to JUST depression.....other factors,especially being told you have poor vision and (just one of my thoughts)multiple sclerosis,and cannot fly again,ever....made this guy snap.
23
Good point
1
Exactly... While the Wall St. Journal reporter said neuropsychologist, some today say neurologist. In fact, one of the commentators on CnN yesterday raised the possibility that something more was going on here and specifically mentioned MS. We may never know.
I wish you the best. Many employers, despite the laws, essentially force employees out if they are diagnosed with serious or "unacceptable" illnesses.
I wish you the best. Many employers, despite the laws, essentially force employees out if they are diagnosed with serious or "unacceptable" illnesses.
11
Re: Julez comments.It is way past time that America joined other wealthy nations and adopted single payer insurance. We continue at our own peril in this self-induced selfish insistence that the "Invisible Hand" works in health care.
9
If he was having vision problems, that could have been the result of a poor drug reaction, or an increase in intracranial pressure near his optic centers/optic nerve. There is more to be learned here.
5
if increase in I.C.P,and his recent visit to a neurologist,brain tumor. NOT MEDICATIONS. I promise......
3
The co-pilot's number of flying hours has NOTHING to do with it.
NOTHING.
The crash was not due to a fatal mistake caused by inexperience.
NOTHING.
The crash was not due to a fatal mistake caused by inexperience.
10
So you know for sure that the crash was a "mistake caused by inexperience'?
Silly me, I thought the investigation is still going on and nothing has yet been concluded.
Silly me, I thought the investigation is still going on and nothing has yet been concluded.
Interoperability of electronic medical records would have prevented this tragedy.
4
No, interoperability just means that different players can read the same electronic medical files. Privacy laws are supposed to still be honored.
2
Some of the new medications for depression, pain, insomnia and other conditions can cause suicidal ideation. We need to know what antidepressant he was taking even if he was not fully compliant with the treatment.
11
Guys...this guy has struggled with depression for years....don't you think he knew that....or,has tried anti-depressants before? He was an avid runner,that is NOT severe depression....something else,a diagnosis of another illness,made him snap. But,let the media focus on depression....it makes more money.
15
Unless someone can convince me otherwise, what we seem to have here is a murderous act that was carried out with premeditation to a very high degree. This suggests to me that the copilot, whatever his mental or physical ailments, somehow thought it acceptable to dispense with the lives of many total innocents, along with is own, in a manner reminiscent of another sociopath, Adam Lanza. Totally disgusting.
11
Wouldn't the safety of commercial flight cockpits be assured more sanely and cheaply if a flight crew member could relieve themselves in the cockpit (truck driver's friend or something), rather than having to come outside with the customers? Modesty may be a problem, but not a problem of this scale.
5
Pilots are going to need to use the bathroom like anyone else, so enough of this bathroom theory.
7
Agreed completely!
Well in spite of the hundreds of comments I've read I don't think I've seen this point mentioned: it was just too easy. In fact, it was probably the easiest way to kill oneself that I've ever heard of. All Mr. Lubitz had to do was flip the altitude switch and the door lock, and then contemplate his death as he floated down into the mountains. I suspect that he may not have even thought about those who he was killing as well. He may have just put that out of his mind.
Other forms of suicide are less certain and less convenient. Jumping off a bridge, shooting oneself, or getting in a car wreck take preparation, and the results are not certain. You could end up in extreme pain and lifelong disability. Mr. Lubitz was sitting in a comfortable chair and only had to flip two switches. It was not intentional of course, but the opportunity was just made too easy. This is easy to correct and it will be.
Other forms of suicide are less certain and less convenient. Jumping off a bridge, shooting oneself, or getting in a car wreck take preparation, and the results are not certain. You could end up in extreme pain and lifelong disability. Mr. Lubitz was sitting in a comfortable chair and only had to flip two switches. It was not intentional of course, but the opportunity was just made too easy. This is easy to correct and it will be.
12
He had to learn how to fly, first, which is not that easy.
7
Don't those anti-depressant TV commercials mention suicidal ideation?
9
As do some being pushed for Neuropathic pain such as Gabapentin, Lyrica and Cymbalta. Chantrix, a drug to help quitting smoking does as well.
Years ago, I worked as a cub reporter covering cops in suburban Seattle. I remember the police chief telling me that in life, there are bad apples, and to me, Lubitz was a bad apple. Regardless of his mental makeup, Lubitz was a mass murderer, no different from Hitler or Stalin, except in the number of victims.
7
I expect you are STILL a cub reporter working for Ranger Rick to compare an allegedly depressed person to Hitler and Stalin, who motivated other people to kill for them so they could accumulate power.
6
Easy on Ranger Rick.
7
Taking the lives of all the people on the plane is unforgivable. Jump off a bridge or a mountain instead of crashing a plane full of people who have nothing to do with this man's issues except being there when he chose to "do it." Sad story that sets the stage for another corrective measure in the airline business. That is, how to create a safer cockpit environment and how to assess the well being of the pilot. Pilots need to be supervised with random drug testing as well as random physical exams and eye tests.
3
He just passed the airlines physical exam in 2014.
2
Does anyone else think it odd that we have seen no security video of Barcelona airport showing Lubitz on the morning of the GermanWings Flight?
6
No. It is odd that you went through hours of security video, though, or think that security video shows absolutely everyone.
Now that I think of it, I did not see a video of the plane crashing, either, so that is suspicious in itself.
Now that I think of it, I did not see a video of the plane crashing, either, so that is suspicious in itself.
5
Good point. That's,the kinda stuff the media always show to keep us interested. Very good point! Yes,I think it's odd.
3
James, how would you expect to see video of a plane crash that took place in an isolated hard to reach part of the Alps. Do you think CNN just had a crew waiting around in the middle of the mountains waiting for it to happen?
2
One of the most concerning parts I've seen in all of this is that he only had 630 hours. Maybe it's time that the rest of the world follow the lead of the U.S. and require pilots to be more experienced before we put them in the right seat of an airliner with hundreds of people on board. In the U.S., 630 is considered very low hours for flying cargo or dusting crops. 500 is the normal minimum to even get the license required for any sort of for-hire flying in the U.S. In order to get an airline transport pilot license, we require 1,000 if you have a university degree in aviation or 1,500 otherwise, just as the absolute minimum to even get the license. By the time you're sitting in the right seat of an A320-class aircraft in the U.S., you've usually already accumulated at least around 3,000 flight hours. It sounds like this guy has been doing this for years and, even now, only had 630 hours.
27
A recent NYTimes article on suicide has a lot of excellent information. Suicide attempts are almost impossible to predict, they are often impulsive and proceed when the means are at hand. Guns are dangerous because they so effective, well so are airplanes.
While everyone seems busy debating privacy and how to psychologically screen pilots, it seems the first step is to just make sure that no one is ever alone in the cockpit of a large commercial airplane. Train the head flight steward to know when a pilot is doing something wrong, and be able to open the door in seconds. If this is too difficult, then fly three pilots on all flights. I'll bet when this shakes out, just having another person in the cockpit would've been enough to keep this person from doing what he did.
While everyone seems busy debating privacy and how to psychologically screen pilots, it seems the first step is to just make sure that no one is ever alone in the cockpit of a large commercial airplane. Train the head flight steward to know when a pilot is doing something wrong, and be able to open the door in seconds. If this is too difficult, then fly three pilots on all flights. I'll bet when this shakes out, just having another person in the cockpit would've been enough to keep this person from doing what he did.
13
Head flight stewards are already dealing with whiny, rude passengers to worry about the pilot.
4
After 9/11/2001 the policy was created to make it impossible for anyone to open the cockpit door from the outside. This is to prevent hijacking.
I see some similarity with other young men in their 20's, such as Edward Snowden, who commit an act which will harm others while convincing themselves that it is somehow justified. Note Lubitz's words that he would "do something that will change the entire system and everyone will know my name and remember it.”
9
This comparison between Lubitz and Snowden is ridiculous.
27
While of course the Snowden crime can certainly be viewed in multiple ways. You might be on to something regarding the extreme narcissism and selfishness involved. You might be on to something.
Narcissistic generation disorder.
I just coined that.
Narcissistic generation disorder.
I just coined that.
8
"Anti depressants were found in his apartment"...Many psychotropic drugs, including anti depressants, are known to cause sudden psychotic episodes; especially in younger persons ( a high percentage of mass shootings were committed by young people who were taking anti depressants; hence these side effects warnings on those prescriptions). As an exception to privacy rules, airlines should be informed by doctors when they prescribe these drugs to pilots.
13
All very interesting comments so far. But if this had been a terrorist act, would anybody be the least interested whether the perpetrator was depressed, broke off with his girlfriend, had eye sight problem, or what not?
If indeed this man was responsible for the plane crash, and if it was deliberate, we should call it what it is and stop with all the pop psychology.
If indeed this man was responsible for the plane crash, and if it was deliberate, we should call it what it is and stop with all the pop psychology.
6
My point exactly. I didn't hear such agonizing theories and pseudo-psychologic opinions in the Charles Hebdo affair, just to mention one.
3
There's a differentiation to be made between mental illness and evil.
6
In the case of the Charlie Hebdo shootings, we knew the reason for it. It was known that it was motivated by a political reason, religious vengeance. All the "pop psychology" spewing around in this case of the crash is because there is no obvious political reason for it. It's a semantic issue, but "terrorism" is political, and is enacted to achieve a specific goal. The fact that there is no evidence of a political motivation in the Germanwings crash, means that people are looking for reasons, for motivation. Discussion of Lubitz's mental health issues is perfectly relevant.
1
He knew he could go to a physician outside of work, not having to even tell this Dr what he did for a living. I'm betting the Dr that wrote the excuse not fit for work DIDNT know he was a pilot. You don't have to be honest with a dr to get treatment.
Secondly, according to the ex girlfriend, this was planned.
Third, we are not dumb, of course he has a mental illness. I hate the way the media jacks with us piece by piece. No depression doesn't make someone mass murder, he obviously had a duel diagnosis.
I too have suffered from depression over many years off and on, we don't appreciate this .
This will never be 100% completely avoidable sadly because you cannot look and see a sick brain. It's not hard to hide mental illness... For awhile.
The red flags were there. If only the ex would have turned him in. But perhaps no one would have listened.
Drs only tell if you tell them you want to harm yourself or others. He didn't tell the Dr that.
Secondly, according to the ex girlfriend, this was planned.
Third, we are not dumb, of course he has a mental illness. I hate the way the media jacks with us piece by piece. No depression doesn't make someone mass murder, he obviously had a duel diagnosis.
I too have suffered from depression over many years off and on, we don't appreciate this .
This will never be 100% completely avoidable sadly because you cannot look and see a sick brain. It's not hard to hide mental illness... For awhile.
The red flags were there. If only the ex would have turned him in. But perhaps no one would have listened.
Drs only tell if you tell them you want to harm yourself or others. He didn't tell the Dr that.
9
This appears to be a pharmaceutical tragedy. We will not hear anything about this drug the pilot took-- it's adverse, severe, and commonly violent, side effects. We will hear nothing. The connection to blurred vision, psychosis, a seemingly stable human suddenly going psychotic. Quiet.
The anti depressant sales are by far the greatest contributor to many drug companies' bottom lines. It's in their best interest to silence anything concerning dangerous side effects of their number one best seller. They are motivated NOT by the patient and society's well being, but by the shareholder's well being
I personally would never ever step on a plane operated by anyone on these drugs--if indeed this information was availabe. Bu it will never be available. And the drug companies will fight.. fight..fight (with enormous outlays of money) to preclude regulation of pilots' prescription drug intake.
"But they will not seek treatment. They will exist in severe depression."
Yeah, right. They will not become a mass killer. They will find more appropriate treatment. They will make sure what they put in their mouth is correct.
I wonder what the executives think about themselves now. All these lives lost.
All these lives lost due to their unethical suppression of information concerning their number one best seller.
The anti depressant sales are by far the greatest contributor to many drug companies' bottom lines. It's in their best interest to silence anything concerning dangerous side effects of their number one best seller. They are motivated NOT by the patient and society's well being, but by the shareholder's well being
I personally would never ever step on a plane operated by anyone on these drugs--if indeed this information was availabe. Bu it will never be available. And the drug companies will fight.. fight..fight (with enormous outlays of money) to preclude regulation of pilots' prescription drug intake.
"But they will not seek treatment. They will exist in severe depression."
Yeah, right. They will not become a mass killer. They will find more appropriate treatment. They will make sure what they put in their mouth is correct.
I wonder what the executives think about themselves now. All these lives lost.
All these lives lost due to their unethical suppression of information concerning their number one best seller.
12
And there we have it, folks; Big Pharm is to blame for this crash.
Thanks for exposing this Ann- really.
Thanks for exposing this Ann- really.
6
You're in Alex Jones land here.
5
people with depression,do NOT SEE NEUROLOGISTS! and anti-depressants do not cause the type of blurred vision this guy saw a neurologist for!!!! Ya know what....we will never know.
3
Medications used to treat depression can interfere with vision. I know of one that can cause blurred vision and another that interferes with depth of field and the ability to visualize a map of ones route.
10
Impaired vision can also be a symptom of a psychosomatic illness called conversion disorder. But we're just armchair psychologists here. I'm sure the investigators who are trying to sort this out have more accurate information than we do.
9
I suggest that the time is ripe for the International Civil Aviation Org to immediately to investigate the extent the role of ancient Indian scriptures like the Patanjali's Yoga Sutra, the most essential technique to keep the body and mind healthy and mandate the practice among pilots.
Extreme tragedy of Lubitz terrible action illustrates the limits in Western science of diagnosing and treating comprehensively psychosomatic body and mind disorders. Research scientists have yet to find an answer for the treatment of the diseases which are on the increase in the developed as well as the developing countries.
I recall Dr Rai researcher at the Lady Hardinge Medical College New Delhi, on the role of Sahaj Yoga in the treatment of psychosomatic diseases observing "The doctor of today practicing modern Western medicine has entered a stage of super specialty whereby they appoint separate parts of the body to be treated by a specialist. Due to this approach doctors are not able to view disease as a disturbance to the whole organism. They treat a particular part of the body without taking into consideration the psychological and social aspects of the patients illness. One could be physically fit, but emotional problems or social isolation could make a person very sick."
Extreme tragedy of Lubitz terrible action illustrates the limits in Western science of diagnosing and treating comprehensively psychosomatic body and mind disorders. Research scientists have yet to find an answer for the treatment of the diseases which are on the increase in the developed as well as the developing countries.
I recall Dr Rai researcher at the Lady Hardinge Medical College New Delhi, on the role of Sahaj Yoga in the treatment of psychosomatic diseases observing "The doctor of today practicing modern Western medicine has entered a stage of super specialty whereby they appoint separate parts of the body to be treated by a specialist. Due to this approach doctors are not able to view disease as a disturbance to the whole organism. They treat a particular part of the body without taking into consideration the psychological and social aspects of the patients illness. One could be physically fit, but emotional problems or social isolation could make a person very sick."
3
"The doctor of today practicing modern Western medicine has entered a stage of super specialty whereby they appoint separate parts of the body to be treated by a specialist. . . ."
The division of the body into disparate parts is generally similar to the way marketers use the concept of "product differentiation" to gain market share and increase profits. Each body part or system, and even the mind, is studied, diagnosed and treated by a doctor trained specifically in that area. The result is a bewildering array of medical specialties, none of which is capable, by itself, of properly diagnosing and treating a serious illness or injury the way a typical small-town general practitioner could do in the past.
The division of the body into disparate parts is generally similar to the way marketers use the concept of "product differentiation" to gain market share and increase profits. Each body part or system, and even the mind, is studied, diagnosed and treated by a doctor trained specifically in that area. The result is a bewildering array of medical specialties, none of which is capable, by itself, of properly diagnosing and treating a serious illness or injury the way a typical small-town general practitioner could do in the past.
6
You couldn't have said it more fairly.
It is great tragedy that western medical practice has been hijacked by the giant pharma- industry complex who use unscrupulous and unethical marketing tactics not only to influence doctors to prescribe their products but also subtly to persuade consumers that they need them.
The drug companies spare no effort to effectively negate the sacred Hippocratic oath " I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of over treatment and therapeutic nihilism"
It is great tragedy that western medical practice has been hijacked by the giant pharma- industry complex who use unscrupulous and unethical marketing tactics not only to influence doctors to prescribe their products but also subtly to persuade consumers that they need them.
The drug companies spare no effort to effectively negate the sacred Hippocratic oath " I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of over treatment and therapeutic nihilism"
2
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-32086196
Excellent BBC article about murder-suicides which basically makes the point that most murder-suicides are domestic and situations like this and mass shootings are quite rare and the reasons may ultimately be unknowable.
This is not to say that cautionary actions such as two person cockpits at all times, clear reporting of pilots who indicate they or are determined to be a danger to self and/or others are not good strategies. But, face facts, no prevention strategy is perfect. Crimes may decrease with more visible policing but they do not disappear. You could put a cop on every corner and someone could easily kill a spouse behind closed doors.
Excellent BBC article about murder-suicides which basically makes the point that most murder-suicides are domestic and situations like this and mass shootings are quite rare and the reasons may ultimately be unknowable.
This is not to say that cautionary actions such as two person cockpits at all times, clear reporting of pilots who indicate they or are determined to be a danger to self and/or others are not good strategies. But, face facts, no prevention strategy is perfect. Crimes may decrease with more visible policing but they do not disappear. You could put a cop on every corner and someone could easily kill a spouse behind closed doors.
6
I think that if we discount the particulars (pilot, plane crash, collateral victims) and look at the generalities of suicides who take others with them (be it children, dogs or strangers) we will learn something about human psychology that may be useful in recognizing these personality types before they hurt themselves.
I don't think we know what obsession and depression really look like. I don't think we know what anti-depressants actually do.
There will be clues in this man's behaviors from which we can hopefully learn, but we must look at commonalities in suicides and not at airline regulations and safety protocols to prevent this from happening in the future.
I don't think we know what obsession and depression really look like. I don't think we know what anti-depressants actually do.
There will be clues in this man's behaviors from which we can hopefully learn, but we must look at commonalities in suicides and not at airline regulations and safety protocols to prevent this from happening in the future.
4
Medical privacy laws? Protecting the privacy of a person who is dead? I don't get it.
5
Every thing is under wraps until the first court date although I have asked myself the same question.
1
It's normal. If you go to the hospital and die we don't open your records to anyone who asks. Investigators have access and will release the information in time. But is it not for a hospital to decide to do so just because we the public want to know now.
2
Let the investigators investigate, then you can put on your deerstalker hat and challenge the final and official report.
2
Lubitz snapped. It happens. The risk in life can be reduced but not eliminated.
This is more like an "act of God" than it is like a monstrous crime. I can't bring myself to do much more than pity Lubitz, who is almost as much a victim here as his passengers. Life is fragile. I and others I know have walked along in life and then suddenly found ourselves at death's door for completely unknown reasons. We are all at the mercy of structural flaws hidden even from ourselves.
Yes, I would like to mitigate the risks. And I would like to see a detailed interview with the flight attendant who described Lubitz as "unstable".
Thornton Wilder wrote a story about people who died in a bridge collapse, called "The Bridge at San Luis Rey". Yes, bridges need to be regularly inspected. But these risks can only be reduced, not eliminated. A component may still fail. We entertain the concept of "blame" when the failed component is a human being. But whether the failure is human or mechanical, the result is still like "an act of God".
Like in Wilder's book, at a certain point our "number comes up", and our personal story is over.
This is more like an "act of God" than it is like a monstrous crime. I can't bring myself to do much more than pity Lubitz, who is almost as much a victim here as his passengers. Life is fragile. I and others I know have walked along in life and then suddenly found ourselves at death's door for completely unknown reasons. We are all at the mercy of structural flaws hidden even from ourselves.
Yes, I would like to mitigate the risks. And I would like to see a detailed interview with the flight attendant who described Lubitz as "unstable".
Thornton Wilder wrote a story about people who died in a bridge collapse, called "The Bridge at San Luis Rey". Yes, bridges need to be regularly inspected. But these risks can only be reduced, not eliminated. A component may still fail. We entertain the concept of "blame" when the failed component is a human being. But whether the failure is human or mechanical, the result is still like "an act of God".
Like in Wilder's book, at a certain point our "number comes up", and our personal story is over.
6
all well and good when someone you love didn't have a seat on that plane. Until then your quotes and musings aren't worth 2 cents.
4
I take it YOU knew someone on that plane, or are you talking from an equally abstract position?
4
You might as well, then, say the same for people who murder their spouses or shoot up the workplace, or open fire in a school: "they snapped."
Sometimes they're so psychotic, they don't know what they're doing. Other times they're psychopaths and sociopaths who are indifferent to or gratified by the suffering of others. I suspect Lubitz felt that if he was going to die, why not others?
From a different perspective, we're all products of heredity and environment, including early development, so maybe no one truly has "free will." But there is no reason to make a special exception for this killer, over others.
Sometimes they're so psychotic, they don't know what they're doing. Other times they're psychopaths and sociopaths who are indifferent to or gratified by the suffering of others. I suspect Lubitz felt that if he was going to die, why not others?
From a different perspective, we're all products of heredity and environment, including early development, so maybe no one truly has "free will." But there is no reason to make a special exception for this killer, over others.
4
Common thread in all of these spectacular crimes is that perpetrator has one or more psychiatric conditions that required treatment & either never received medications & CBT or was diagnosed & refused or discontinued treatment. It isn't 09/2011 that I recall but Sandy Hook, where a young man had been diagnosed & received medications for his conditions [as reported by his mother] but stopped treatment. Every time a tragedy like this occurs in the U.S. the psychiatric aspects inevitably come up, though psychiatric conditions have always been the step child of many other variables. Perhaps this is the 1st time that a large scale tragedy is pointing to psychiatric symptoms... It is beyond time -- as the mantra goes each time one of these large-scale events occurs --- for psychiatric evaluation & treatment to be part of any medical workup from the teen years & up. Earlier is warning signs warrant. The sooner the stigma of psychiatric illnesses is put on the back burner the safer our society, in the world, will be. Any adult working with the pubic on a 'large-scale' must be required to have a full medical workup [including psychiatric testing] at regular intervals. This should include transit operators; hospitals; schools & universities; government agencies & other groups that don't come to my mind right now. Within the EC that should be a possible task. As far as 'privacy rights' are concerned, this variable should be thrown out; the public good trumps privacy..
6
So he was working a flight attendant before becoming a copilot. Lufthansa hid this tidbit too. Just as they lied about not knowing why he interrupted, when the school says he was ''unflyable''. Severe psychological problems, depression, burnout requiring anti-depressants, vision problems and he was allowed to fly. The girlfriend from Lufthansa knew he was unstable did not tell.
7
Andreas had a doctors note saying he shouldn't be working the day he crashed the plane and murdered 149 people. At least that has been reported. He flew anyway. Mental illness is really tricky....on meds or off....and I think if you have a diagnosis, you should not be working in the airlines, the trains or mass transit in general.
7
There is illness and there is illness--mental and/or physical. Do you know how many people will have at least one bout of serious depression over their lifetimes? Maybe even you... There is a huge difference between someone who has had clinical depression, now well controlled or cured, and someone with bipolar I not under adequate control. I would have no problem having the former as a pilot, train operator, bus driver... The latter might become manic or psychotic. In that case I would not necessarily want even to be in a car with him or her were she having symptoms.
The FAA website is quite informative on what diagnoses (physical and mental) preclude being a pilot altogether and what would not necessarily entirely preclude being a pilot but must be controlled by treatment.
I'd much rather have a pilot, train or subway operator or bus driver who has acknowledged and been treated for depression or alcohol abuse than one who continued to work despite symptoms so never carried the scarlet letter of diagnosis but is more dangerous because of lack of treatment.
There was a lot more going on with Lubitz than depression. The Wall Street Journal said he was being seen by a neuropsychologist. He also had vision problems, it appears. Did he have another illness? MS? A TBI?
The FAA website is quite informative on what diagnoses (physical and mental) preclude being a pilot altogether and what would not necessarily entirely preclude being a pilot but must be controlled by treatment.
I'd much rather have a pilot, train or subway operator or bus driver who has acknowledged and been treated for depression or alcohol abuse than one who continued to work despite symptoms so never carried the scarlet letter of diagnosis but is more dangerous because of lack of treatment.
There was a lot more going on with Lubitz than depression. The Wall Street Journal said he was being seen by a neuropsychologist. He also had vision problems, it appears. Did he have another illness? MS? A TBI?
2
It still isn't clear to me exactly what the note said and what its import was in German society. In other words, was the point of the note to forbid him from flying on the day in question or was the point just to permit him not to fy for medical reasons on the day in question (the typical rationale for such a note in the US, to complly w/ employer rules).
5
My point is that if you have a diagnosed mental illness or personality disorder, like clinical depression, or something, your choice of work might be best if it did not involve mass transit thus endangering others. He had something that kept him out of training for over a year I think.
1
There is zero chance that psychological testing will identify the one in a hundred thousand, or whatever, commercial pilots who want to crash their plane.
There will be many false positives, and absolutely no increase in safety.
There will be many false positives, and absolutely no increase in safety.
15
And we'll still have thousands of alcoholic pilots flying -- maybe the drinking is a substitute for the counseling or antidepressents that would better meet their needs but which might result in grounding them.
3
The problem of alcoholic and drug-addicted pilots who hide their illnesses is depicted in the movie "Flight," which stars Denzel Washington. This movie, however, portrays the addicted pilot as a super-hero ace whose addiction doesn't adversely affect his abilities at all as a pilot. The movie gives viewers the impression that the ace pilot is treated unfairly just because his addiction becomes known to airline management.
1
We have thousands of alcoholics doing all kinds of jobs in this society. There are thousands upon thousands of functional alcoholics.
We are all subject to the flaws inherent in being human. I don't think that there are any rules or protocols that can protect us completely from that. It is a terrible tragedy for those lives lost and for those left behind. It brings home once again the unpredictability and fragility of life - it isn't a wonder that people thought us just toys in a game played by the Gods.
4
There's been much talk about the pilot's depression. I think it's also quite possible that he suffered from extreme narcissism, which may be what prompted him to murder a plane full of people instead of quietly taking his own life.
Narcissism might explain his total indifference to the lives of others, and his need to create a huge media splash around HIS problems.
Narcissism is about thinking you're the center of the universe and no one else's concerns, or their life, matters as much as yours. So damn them all, if that's what it takes to be noticed.
Very tragic.
Narcissism might explain his total indifference to the lives of others, and his need to create a huge media splash around HIS problems.
Narcissism is about thinking you're the center of the universe and no one else's concerns, or their life, matters as much as yours. So damn them all, if that's what it takes to be noticed.
Very tragic.
29
Thank you Ira for hitting the nail squarely on the head! The idea of depression being the root of this issue almost hides this very real reason you mention. Lack of empathy... or the capability of having empathy for the problems of those around us is so prevalent today that we don't even think this could be the core of the problem. I know others have voiced this in the past but perhaps if we concentrated more on the lives of those that died in the tragedy and less public curiosity with the perpetrator, then future mass murderers could not take solace that after their horrible crimes they would be almost immortalized in the press. Certainly the proper authorities need to discover the how and why of this tragedy but the public at large does not need to know what kind of breakfast cereal this deranged killer had on the day of this demented crime. Let's raise the bar of journalism to a slightly higher level shall we? Concentrate on the very real lives of those that were taken much too soon.
4
Definitely not a medical professional. Narcissistic personality disorder is not characterized by a disregard for the lives of others. And also, killing yourself is the complete opposite of narcissism. For a primer on NPD, read about Bill Clinton.
4
It is utterly insane to blame one's own maladaptation to the circumstances of one's own life on the people around one who are equally powerless to negotiate the social contract.
Early on, the airline CEO said, ". . He was fit to fly. . " He has, as far as I can tell not repudiated this statement. All evidence to the contrary.
I'd have preferred to hear, "He was fit to fly, as determined and regulated by the European Aviation Authority, and Lufthansa's internal rules."
Perhaps just me, but I heard an executive with an eye to future lawsuits trying to position this event as someone who was fit to fly and then was overcome by some unknown force.
Whether he concealed a flight-limiting condition(s) is immaterial. He was not fit to fly that day, and perhaps had been unfit to fly for some time before this tragedy.
I'd have preferred to hear, "He was fit to fly, as determined and regulated by the European Aviation Authority, and Lufthansa's internal rules."
Perhaps just me, but I heard an executive with an eye to future lawsuits trying to position this event as someone who was fit to fly and then was overcome by some unknown force.
Whether he concealed a flight-limiting condition(s) is immaterial. He was not fit to fly that day, and perhaps had been unfit to fly for some time before this tragedy.
8
Did you really think the CEO had examined the co-pilot personally in advance of the fatal flight? Of course he was only referring to the official records.
3
I agree and I am extremely disappointed in the airline. I would have thought their standards were higher than that! Since my maiden name is Hoffman, I feel I need to say I am embarrassed.
2
Monday-morning quarterback (goalkeep?) much?
1
Two persons in the cockpit is fine as far as it goes. BUT, what if a deranged pilot decides to conceal a handgun and kill the other pilot? Same result.
Airlines may have to institute something like the DoD's Personnel Reliability Program (PRP) to have the best chance of removing a deranged pilot from the cockpit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personnel_Reliability_Program
The PRP has worked well - so far - for those military personnel whose duties involve the handling of nuclear weapons where there is also a two person rule.
Airlines may have to institute something like the DoD's Personnel Reliability Program (PRP) to have the best chance of removing a deranged pilot from the cockpit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personnel_Reliability_Program
The PRP has worked well - so far - for those military personnel whose duties involve the handling of nuclear weapons where there is also a two person rule.
4
Vision problems, in particular, blurred vision, are a side effect of SSRI antidepressants. Also it is now being reported in a French newspaper that antidepressants were found at his home and a former girlfriend has said he was treated for psychological problems for at least 6 years. Should you be interested in more information about SSRIs and flying you can go to ssristories.org and do a search for pilot. There are 55 stories related to flying, many of them fatal accidents. How many of you know that the restrictions on pilots being able to take antidepressants have been greatly loosened in recent years much to the dismay of several experts on their adverse effects? It is time to put the clamp down again on letting pilots take antidepressants the benefits of which are at best highly questionable and the risks of which are devastating.
19
Sara; you have a point, but the site you note is not an official scientific site, and the "Bild" that is quotes re: Lubitz is regarded in Germany as a "gossip" paper like US National Inquirer. Vision problems, and we don't know at all what Lubitz suffered since there are hundreds of types of vision problems, are not common side effects.
Further, it is not always the SSRI that causes untoward reactions, many times it is an improper or even too low dose, or that good psychotherapy is not provided to help personally. Drugs alone are rarely enough since they don't deal with the personal issues in one's life.
I know there are many people against psych meds and there are abuses but its best to work closely with psych MD (not general MD) to closely monitor and catch reactions asap. it can be done.
Further, it is not always the SSRI that causes untoward reactions, many times it is an improper or even too low dose, or that good psychotherapy is not provided to help personally. Drugs alone are rarely enough since they don't deal with the personal issues in one's life.
I know there are many people against psych meds and there are abuses but its best to work closely with psych MD (not general MD) to closely monitor and catch reactions asap. it can be done.
5
Was the co-pilot even conscious in the cabin? He didn't say a word, to the pilot or to his future audience on the voice recorder. The door automatically locks when the pilot leaves the cabin. If he just forgot the code, or someone changed it on him, then he wouldn't be able to get back in and the plane would crash.
2
Good point, but does not explain why the plane was put into a crash path.
I'll say it again: isn't it a bit strange that the co-pilot would be overcome with some ailment only from the second that he is alone in the cockpit?!
Maybe the co-pilot was already "overcome" with whatever was happening to him (altered mental state) yet it was entirely undetectable to anyone around him - he appeared normal. People seem to have difficulty grasping this concept.
I share the concern of many that we should not impose too much government interference, monitoring, and red tape. Certainly this is an unusual case. However, as someone who recently lost a relative to brain cancer I would say that the combination of increasing mental changes over a few years followed by changes in vision (or hearing, coordination, or other sensory processing) REALLY should have set off an alarm bell somewhere.
4
The German equivalent of HIPAA goes too far. One's health condition, when tied to the responsibility for hundreds of people whose lives are in your hands every time you take the wheel, is no longer a private matter. When a pilot seeks medical help and a doctor finds him/her unfit to fly, that information should be directed immediately to the airline and the German FAA. And it should be the same in every country. To think you are playing Russian Roulette with the pilot and whether he or she feels like reporting their illness, an honor system, is appalling.
10
I'm reading elsewhere in the press that Andreas was treated derisively by other pilots, who had a disparaging nickname for him because he had been a flight attendant at one point. Not trying to make excuses for what happened, but do want to remind people the psychic toll that bullying and teasing have on a victim.If his work culture was toxic, it may have impacted his warped decision making, and caused an incalculable rage. Maybe the culture in the workplace needs attention, along with some sweeping policy changes about security in the cockpit.
11
This scenario gets darker by the day. A flight attendant who dated the co-pilot last year, observed his unstable behavior and reported him saying that one day he would “do something that will change the entire system and everyone will know my name and remember it." I am mystified and equally horrified that this flight attendant never thought to report the co-polit's observed unstability coupled with his ominous proclamation.
13
She said the his statement was from months before and she did not even connect it to anything dire until the crash. Don't blame her for his behavior. I presume she might have enough self-blame, at this time.
12
I do not blame this woman because I am convinced no one in his life ever invisioned this type of unspeakable act happening. I am just amazed to read that as a flight attendant who dated a pilot whom she thought was unstable MONTHS AGO, did this not raise a glaring red flag to her and did she ever report her concerns to the airlines? My God, if she found him unstable months ago, perhaps an intervention could have occurred which could have possibly prevented this horrific tragedy.
2
I was merely pointing out that if any flight attendant finds a pilot unstable, that in and of itself should be considered a red flag and shared with the respective airlines he/she is employed with. Reading that the co-pilot's former girlfriend found him unstable months ago and possibly taking no steps to notify the airlines only compounds the situation.
1
@Nancy "Corriere della Sera (respected Italian newspaper) reports" .... Seams, that they had the same source like the german BILD- Zeitung today. Not the newspaper, I would trust much.
I think, we should be patient and wait, what the investigators can tell, after they have intervied family, friends and collegues.
By the way ... if my boyfriend would behave like reported in BILD and other medias and I know, he is in psychiatric treatment AND a pilot, I hope, there would have been more than one red signal for me.
I think, we should be patient and wait, what the investigators can tell, after they have intervied family, friends and collegues.
By the way ... if my boyfriend would behave like reported in BILD and other medias and I know, he is in psychiatric treatment AND a pilot, I hope, there would have been more than one red signal for me.
6
I am astonished at the general rush to "humanize" Lubitz. Why? He was a mass murderer. What is it that makes him deserving of sympathy?
8
If this is about giving opinions ... This is my opinion: This guy (the German co-pilot of Germanwings flight from Barcelona to Düsseldorf on Tuesday 24th. March 2105, flying on the Airbus 320, with 150 people on his charge on the plane ... )Andreas is not the only responsible for the tragedy.
Responsible are: his boss, his head and the air-traffic controllers.
Oh dear! Maybe they were also sick the day of the tragedy! Oh, my god! I recommend them to find a job earning $1000/month, maybe they will feel happier ...
Responsible are: his boss, his head and the air-traffic controllers.
Oh dear! Maybe they were also sick the day of the tragedy! Oh, my god! I recommend them to find a job earning $1000/month, maybe they will feel happier ...
2
I think what we are learning from this particular mentally induced murderous take down of the plane is that no one really knows who someone is by their ability, degree, license, or elected position they occupy in our society. If you asked anyone 25 years ago, would O.J. Simpson kill two people, would Bill Clinton proposition numerous women, would Eliot Spitzer endanger his future political prospects for a presidential bid, most would say no based on what they do, and who they are in society. And that is the problem in a nutshell, honesty and character are born in the ability to be humble, self controlled, and reflective for the sake of not only oneself, and ones' family, but for the good of society as a whole and one's place in it. All of those I mentioned would be deemed mentally ill in my opinion if you talked to the right professionals.
8
I've read various news reports that there is a missing black box containing memory data. There's also strangely no report about the other pilot.
If I'm going to assume something I will assume that Lubitz did not commit a suicidal murderous act.
If I'm going to assume something I will assume that Lubitz did not commit a suicidal murderous act.
2
I have one perplexing question?Who's idea was it for the other pilot to take a restroom break?Was it a regularly scheduled event.It seems so much depends on this decision,sadly?
3
I love the actual fact of flying - being in a soaring chariot that defies gravity - but there's not much else about commercial air travel that excites me. The idea that my pilot and copilot may have only met for the first time on my flight doesn't do much to boost my confidence in the industry. It would be satisfying to know that the team flying my jet is a well-acquainted pair who knows each other's ins and outs - like cops and their partners - and who would be the ones most likely to know when there was a "problem."
10
Conversely, people will say that such pairings can lead to collusions and conspiracies.
2
Severe depression can lead to suicidal thoughts and suicide, but can it lead to taking down a jet with 150 unknown passengers? I don't think medical science or psychiatry can properly explain why someone would do that. Or why someone suffering from severe depression would commit mass murder rather than just take their own life.
While there seems to be no religious reasons for this co-pilot doing so, I do think there could be a spiritual dimension here. Just like God's divine inspiration has influenced people to do good things, the devil's schemes has also influenced people's minds to do evil things.
People's minds can become open to demonic forces, that according to spiritual wisdom, exist whether we can see them or not. Just because Science can't see or measure it, doesn't mean they don't exist.
But biblical scripture says these demonic forces or powers of darkness exist in the spiritual realm. To me its obviously apparent, that evil forces outside our control, have had an devastating influence upon our world and especially upon the thought-life of mankind.
While there seems to be no religious reasons for this co-pilot doing so, I do think there could be a spiritual dimension here. Just like God's divine inspiration has influenced people to do good things, the devil's schemes has also influenced people's minds to do evil things.
People's minds can become open to demonic forces, that according to spiritual wisdom, exist whether we can see them or not. Just because Science can't see or measure it, doesn't mean they don't exist.
But biblical scripture says these demonic forces or powers of darkness exist in the spiritual realm. To me its obviously apparent, that evil forces outside our control, have had an devastating influence upon our world and especially upon the thought-life of mankind.
3
We don't really know what this pilot's issues were. It is incredibly sad that he took 149 souls with him. We can pass judgment, and offer solutions, but really, thank God, this is an exceedingly rare occurence.
3
In the middle of all these speculations, is anyone asking why, if he was so 'depressed' that he wanted to die: a) why kill over 150 innocent people along with him? And b) even more importantly, why set the controls for a slow, gradual descent, rather than a fast dive that would have ended the ordeal much faster? I know it sounds awful, but it seems to me he made it deliberately slow to give the passengers plenty of time to realize what was happening and spend the last minutes of their lives in sheer terror - we've heard their screams, so did he.
6
The fact that a notice of a medical condition requiring ongoing treatment was attached to his "license" his employers had a responsibility to ask him what that condition was and what type of treatment it requires. Why wasn't this reviewed by the airline's medical group? Don't they routinely review licenses and explore any questions raised about the persons capacity? Where's the violation of privacy? He submitted his application with this statement.
10
Corriere della Sera (respected Italian newspaper) reports that his ex-girlfriends has made some startling statements, claiming that he said he would do something that would make everyone remember his name, waking up from nightmares yelling about the plane going down, chronically complaining about work (low pay, high stress), and his fear of being a co-pilot on short-leg flights for the duration of his career. Has the NYT investigated these allegations?
8
Those complaints don't sound too far out of the range of normal.
2
I'd like to weigh on the "mental illness" theories. I had my first episode of depression at age 19. I'm now 64 and have had many ups and downs in the 45 years since, as most of us have. I take a very small dose of anti depressant to keep me somewhat evened out. I am also a successful financial planner for the last 38 years, and not once, not ever, did I ever think of hurting myself, no less innocent people. Perhaps I'm sensitive, but I do not consider myself "mentally ill" Do I have a very common mental affliction ? Yes, but I'm not ill . . please lets be careful with broad generalizations Thanks
40
Depression does not make people homicidal, but the antidepressant drugs have this written as a side effect even in a black box warning. Most doctors never tell their patients about this, and most patients never read the warning.
5
Same here brother. A small dose of zoloft keeps me evened out. Never thought of killing anyone.
8
Some people can become psychotically depressed and hear voices telling them to do unimaginable things. I personally know a mom who killed her own child and herself to get the devil out of both of them (left a note to explain). Re: the medication causing these things, I don't know if they can really tell if it is the medication causing these feelings or the depression causing them. In any case, we need to do much better in recognizing, de-stigmatizing and treating mental illnesses.
1
Why does an airline company depend upon the individual to voluntary give their medical info. and not have a team of company or contracted doctors examine the cockpit crews? It is a natural for one whose top priority is the job that require passing those tests will cheat, not disclose, etc. to get that job!
6
it's probably the anti depressants that caused him to kill all those people
12
It sounds ludicrous, but you're correct.
5
You are right workerbee...bad dope
2
Yeah right ... better not leave your house or someone else on an SSRI might kill you, too!
1
I still do NOT understand why it was impossible to break down the cockpit door??
Overemphasis on terrorism as always from the outside.
Overemphasis on terrorism as always from the outside.
After 9/11 all airplanes were retrofitted with new bulk head doors that not even metal-piercing bullets can penetrate and can withstand a grenade blast. New hinges and lock bolts were also installed.
A key entry and an electronic code number must also be entered. There used to an axe before 9/11 but it was removed because it could be used as a weapon by a person (s) ttying to access the cockpit. And is now useless against this new stronger door.
A key entry and an electronic code number must also be entered. There used to an axe before 9/11 but it was removed because it could be used as a weapon by a person (s) ttying to access the cockpit. And is now useless against this new stronger door.
3
Because terrorists can break down the door as well and pull another 9/11.
2
I'm sorry, but the world needs to know about his medical conditions to better comprehend this horrible catastrophe. More urgently, the loved ones of the victims need to know. In a case where the central figure in this unspeakable act is dead, there must be a legal mechanism to release the "private" medical information in a timely manner. Either his parents or the woman with whom he lived should have the authority to OK the release of the information--and certainly the desire to do so, as it might allow us to begin to understand Lubitz's motivation. I wonder if the delay isn't a result of financial liability concerns on the part of Lufthansa. Meanwhile, thousands of flights are in the air right this minute, and pilot screening procedures will undoubtedly need to be tightened, based on an analysis of exactly what went wrong, which can only be a thorough analysis if the public is informed.
5
The hysteria about this tragedy seems normal, but no less absurd for that. I'm 71. Suicidal pilots are strictly a one in a million thing. Getting killed in a car every day of your life has a much, much higher level of probability, not to mention getting the final diagnosis about your inoperable cancer, or simply dropping dead from a stroke or heart attack. It's impossible to design a system in which it's impossible for a given determined pilot to destroy his plane just as this poor lunatic did. Just remember the wisdom of the Episcopal prayer book's funeral service: "In the midst of life, we are in death." Nothing can change that. Relax and get on with your accidental fluke blip of a life. Enjoy your instant as best you can.
17
Sorry, it was the 149 others not the suicide of the pilot that is causing the hysteria. I suppose you really don't get that more than one guy died and the other people's loved ones are upset. Wisdom is supposed to come with age.
5
Wisdom.
1
You are right. About 10,000 people die every year from hospital infections. Not a peep in the news.
What is the story behind the quote from Mr. Radke in your article that says the flight club received emailed death threats during Lubitz' training?
5
Key question what kind of drugs he was on. Prozac and its derivatives can cause Suicidal thoughts and actions, black box marked, required by the FDA. All the shooters in America were on these drugs Columbine, Aurora, Connecticut and Virginia Tech shooter. These drugs need to be pulled of the market!!
10
How do you know if they were taking drugs in the first place and if they were, that they were drugs like Prozac? That would be confidential information. I smell an ulterior motive in your rhetorical question, Wayne. I see you're from CA, land of Scientology.
3
Hitting the nail on the head.
1
not all of us here in CA are Scientologists
Lots of baseless -- and likely incorrect -- speculation at this point about what actually happened in regard to the co-pilot, which is not helpful, and potentially harmful. Better to wait until all the facts have been revealed, then whatever actionable insights regarding pilot health and state of mind that might be derived potentially become clearer.
In the meantime, it's good to see airlines adopting the at-least-two-people-in-the-cockpit-at-all-times protocol. That seems like a no-brainer. The next step would be to implement a way to ensure that one pilot -- or one person who's stormed the cockpit -- cannot permanently lock out members of the flight crew. That seems like a no-brainer, too. And then, implement real-time streaming of flight data -- to include video of the cockpit -- via satellite to air traffic controllers. That makes for a no-brainer trifecta.
In the meantime, it's good to see airlines adopting the at-least-two-people-in-the-cockpit-at-all-times protocol. That seems like a no-brainer. The next step would be to implement a way to ensure that one pilot -- or one person who's stormed the cockpit -- cannot permanently lock out members of the flight crew. That seems like a no-brainer, too. And then, implement real-time streaming of flight data -- to include video of the cockpit -- via satellite to air traffic controllers. That makes for a no-brainer trifecta.
11
There should be an absolute way - undisclosed to the public - that flight crew members can over-ride the cockpit lock in an emergency. Exclusion from the cockpit led to the present tragedy and would have prevented the heroics of Flight 93 on Sept 11 from minimizing the effects of that disaster. Had Lubitz been aware of the possibility of such an over-ride that he might have reconsidered his actions. And if not, the captain would have re=entered. No amount of psychiatric intervention would have predicted what happened.
2
9/11 happened because there were no cockpit lock. The whole idea is to allow the pilots to lock the door so terrorists cannot get in the cockpit and conduct another 9/11. If there is a way to force the door from cabin even after pilots repeatedly locked the door, what's the point?
2
15 years ago I was witness to demonstration of OnStar. The car was locked and they unlocked it by satellite.Easy answer!!
3
Has anybody mentioned the simple fact that this whole tragedy could have and should have been avoided by designing the plane in such a way that it was TOTALLY impossible for anybody to lock themselves in, anywhere?
Whether the co-pilot was suicidal or whether he had an epileptic fit or a sudden bout of nausea, we will never know.
In a commercial airliner, it should simply not be POSSIBLE the pilot to locked out of the cockpit.
Terrorist threats aside, if the captain can not fly the plane, the plane is going down.
Whether the co-pilot was suicidal or whether he had an epileptic fit or a sudden bout of nausea, we will never know.
In a commercial airliner, it should simply not be POSSIBLE the pilot to locked out of the cockpit.
Terrorist threats aside, if the captain can not fly the plane, the plane is going down.
5
Do you remember how 9/11 happened? Yeah, terrorist get into the cockpit.
2
Every driver, pilot and all those involved in any job where public safety is a concern or an issue must sign a document that ALL his/her medical records would be public property or at least, be open to scrutiny by the employers. There should be no job offered to anyone who does not agree to this rule. Just as drivers who are intoxicated can kill, pilots and drivers with illnesses (depending of course on type, severity, etc) are ticking time bombs ready to slaughter innocents with or without intent. They must all be relegated to desk jobs or jobs that can be handled from home, if they are qualified. They cannot be in charge of lives of others or more en masse tragedies will only be something we will come to see more often, sadly.
3
If he wished to die, why he brought the passengers together? He could have committed a suicide alone somewhere else. Then it does not explain he deliberately slammed by damaging the plane and passengers together. Did he intend to kill the passenger and plane? Why? Revenge something? The journalism or someone drive the issue to somewhere else.
2
You can't look for the same logic in this that is common to rational, healthy people.
3
So that his name would be forever remembered like James Wilkes Booth.
1
If a psychiatrist stated in a note that he was too ill to work the day of the flight, and he or she based that on the fact that Lubitz was a danger to passengers because of his depression, he should have notified the airline. At least that is the law in California based a statute derived from the "Tarasoff case." There, a male international student led a counselor to believe he would kill a specific female student. The counselor didn't warn the potential victim because of confidentiality requirements; and the student patient murdered her.
The other thing I do not understand is what is all this confidentiality business about someone who is dead and murdered a planeload of people in the process. If someone is dead, release of their records may hurt their reputation left over in this world, but not the deceased. Here, Lubitz already did an excellent job of wrecking his reputation himself, and the world needs to know why so that just maybe a repeat can be avoided.
The other thing I do not understand is what is all this confidentiality business about someone who is dead and murdered a planeload of people in the process. If someone is dead, release of their records may hurt their reputation left over in this world, but not the deceased. Here, Lubitz already did an excellent job of wrecking his reputation himself, and the world needs to know why so that just maybe a repeat can be avoided.
9
It's about the coverup.
2
People are saying "no one does this sort of thing and breathes calmly so he must have been incapacitated". First, an incapacitated person doesn't lock out the pilot. Second, and incapacitated person doesn't manually change a plane's altitude.
The truth is the no *normal* person can do what he did and breath calmly. But sociopaths can. Sociopaths get cal
The truth is the no *normal* person can do what he did and breath calmly. But sociopaths can. Sociopaths get cal
6
I don't know if my comment went through or disappeared. Mobile safari. Ugh. So if I repeat, sorry.
I'm seeing people say that no one can take a plans down and breathe calmly and so he must have been incapacitated. First, incapacitated people don't lock out a pilot. Second, in capacities people don't manually change a plane's altitude. You can't fall over ands vaudeville do either of these things.
It's true that no *normal* person can do what he did while maintaining calmness. But sociopaths can. Sociopaths are known to get eerily peaceful and calm before violence. That's why I got chills when I read that he was so calm. That's creepy.
I'm seeing people say that no one can take a plans down and breathe calmly and so he must have been incapacitated. First, incapacitated people don't lock out a pilot. Second, in capacities people don't manually change a plane's altitude. You can't fall over ands vaudeville do either of these things.
It's true that no *normal* person can do what he did while maintaining calmness. But sociopaths can. Sociopaths are known to get eerily peaceful and calm before violence. That's why I got chills when I read that he was so calm. That's creepy.
21
Mobile Safari is very stable. It is sometime the NYTimes' comment session that's weird.
I don't think you need to be a sociopaths to kill while being calm. In this instance, the fact he is going to kill 149 people may not even matter much to him. He might be so focused on killing himself, a fatalistic attitude, that he calmly welcomes death and block out every other thoughts.
I don't think you need to be a sociopaths to kill while being calm. In this instance, the fact he is going to kill 149 people may not even matter much to him. He might be so focused on killing himself, a fatalistic attitude, that he calmly welcomes death and block out every other thoughts.
4
Regarding the calm breathing, I didn't think "sociopath" but rather psychotic state. The pilot's (perhaps emerging) illness could have manifested in a psychotic episode during which he might have seemed quite normal though he may have been far from it in reality. He could have been delusional, hearing voices, oblivious to the pilot's knocking and the screams of the passengers, any number of things. People tend to think that "crazy" means ranting or foaming at the mouth, something that calls attention to itself. Psychotic, delusional states are by their very nature inaccessible to the rational mind.
1
So sad that Lubitz's former flight club has received death threats for teaching him to fly years ago. What is wrong with people?
23
I agree.
2
If the flying world's just going to keep on having trouble with fact that flawless people can't be found to fly their aircraft such that one will never crash as a result of a single instance caused by those flaws, then may need to give up flying altogether if we can't accept the fact.
All this hand wringing is only useful if it can improve things to whatever extent is possible, but if some will continue to lament the fact that it's still not perfect, the reality is that nothing in this world is perfect and never will be. Such is the nature of life.
And from the pictures of the victims accompanying this article, I can see that they all look like very nice people; but I fail to see how they look as very relevant to the cause of the accident, other than making sure everyone who sees them will come away damning the pilot as a monster, regardless of any of his human failings.
All this hand wringing is only useful if it can improve things to whatever extent is possible, but if some will continue to lament the fact that it's still not perfect, the reality is that nothing in this world is perfect and never will be. Such is the nature of life.
And from the pictures of the victims accompanying this article, I can see that they all look like very nice people; but I fail to see how they look as very relevant to the cause of the accident, other than making sure everyone who sees them will come away damning the pilot as a monster, regardless of any of his human failings.
7
It wasn't an accident, it was mass murder.
3
Call it what you will, but the reality is the same. I'm sorry, but all the anger and outrage only prolongs the pain and suffering of those left living.
1
We already have a very primitive and prejudicial attitude towards mental illness, this will only make it worse. But it's important to remember that most people with mental illness are not dangerous.
10
In decades past, psychiatrists were called "alienists" due to the fact a psychiatric diagnosis usually has a powerful alienating effect on the victim of mental illness. Lubitz probably experienced a sense of estrangement as a consequence of psychiatric treatment and was unable to deal with it rationally.
5
Maybe he had hallucinations?
3
I was thinking the same thing. His hallucinations could have been what he thought were vision issues.
Memo to all airlines: Don't ever allow a catastrophe like this to happen again. Whether it's not allowing less than two pilots in the cock pit always or insuring that all health care professionals must report mental health issues to said airline. Or whatever it takes.. This should never ever happen again..
6
Don't antidepressants cause suicidal thoughts? Wasn't the guy who killed all those kids at Sandy Hook, and many other killers on antidepressans?
6
You "get it ". Most people are unaware. The suicide enhancing effect is more common in young people.
8
No. Adam Lanza (who killed the kids at Sandy Hook) was NOT on anti-depressants.
Lanza's autopsy showed no over-the-counter medicines, prescription medications, or illegal drugs in his system. That is not surprising because Lanza was not under a doctor's care and years before, he had refused to take medications for his psychological problems.
Lanza's autopsy showed no over-the-counter medicines, prescription medications, or illegal drugs in his system. That is not surprising because Lanza was not under a doctor's care and years before, he had refused to take medications for his psychological problems.
3
When a person holds any position that carries responsibility for the lives of others, he or she must accept a higher standard of medical oversight and fitness for the role. It's the socially responsible thing to do.
This pilot may have loved flying and been good at it, but it was not his right to fly (others) under any circumstances. His wanting to be a pilot and persist in holding a position he was evidently psychologically unqualified for was a supremely selfish act.
We need better ways to match privacy while assessing competency at the same time.
This pilot may have loved flying and been good at it, but it was not his right to fly (others) under any circumstances. His wanting to be a pilot and persist in holding a position he was evidently psychologically unqualified for was a supremely selfish act.
We need better ways to match privacy while assessing competency at the same time.
9
Just want to congratulate the NYT's reporters for their terrific journalism on this dreadful story.
7
Good reporting on this pilot, but the larger questions I would like to see answered in the Times are:
1. May airline employers require pilot employees waive their rights to medical privacy such that the results of medical exams must be reported to the company as well as the civil aeronautics authority;
2. If medical privacy rights cannot be waived, what changes to the laws can be made to correct that;
3. And how are the preceding questions answered for the USA, Germany, France, GB, etc?
1. May airline employers require pilot employees waive their rights to medical privacy such that the results of medical exams must be reported to the company as well as the civil aeronautics authority;
2. If medical privacy rights cannot be waived, what changes to the laws can be made to correct that;
3. And how are the preceding questions answered for the USA, Germany, France, GB, etc?
4
I know this may show my ignorance of mental illness but if you are going to kill yourself, why take down 140 innocent people with you. The idea of seeing those children board the plane and then crashing into a mountain on purpose seems well...yeah, crazy. So I guess that answers my own question.
5
Designers of the cockpit door lock system made the security choice to have the door be impervious even with code entry if an active person in the cockpit wishes to deny entry. Airbus should disclose, as a matter of public safety, how this system has been used in the field.
We do not know how secret the code is - whether it's frequently changed, or unique to each aircraft or aircraft type. We do not know how personnel are informed of the code. While I don't personally want to know the details, time and time again, supposedly secure systems have been revealed to be completely insecure.
There's also a clear danger that a pilot may be unable to recall the code if it's frequently changed. For example, Permissive Action Links for nuclear weapons were, for many years, set to 00000000, presumably so that no weapon might accidentally go unused in the event of an all-out nuclear war. The possibility that two men in a minuteman silo might simultaneously each turn their switch and destroy the planet was deliberately left unguarded.
There should be a procedure to access the door that requires multiple-factor authentication but can operate against of the wishes of the cockpit occupants, taking consideration of the authority level of personally authenticated codes.
We do not know how secret the code is - whether it's frequently changed, or unique to each aircraft or aircraft type. We do not know how personnel are informed of the code. While I don't personally want to know the details, time and time again, supposedly secure systems have been revealed to be completely insecure.
There's also a clear danger that a pilot may be unable to recall the code if it's frequently changed. For example, Permissive Action Links for nuclear weapons were, for many years, set to 00000000, presumably so that no weapon might accidentally go unused in the event of an all-out nuclear war. The possibility that two men in a minuteman silo might simultaneously each turn their switch and destroy the planet was deliberately left unguarded.
There should be a procedure to access the door that requires multiple-factor authentication but can operate against of the wishes of the cockpit occupants, taking consideration of the authority level of personally authenticated codes.
2
You can access someones credit history when buying a car or house.
Credit card companies access your purchasing history in order to prevent
fraud in real time.
ATM's access accounts when it is necessary to use funds.
Why can't a doctors medical records be accessible to other doctors, health care providers and health institutions in order to make more accurate diagnostics and treatments and to track outcomes.
Had the flight surgeon been aware of the other physicians diagnostics and treatments, the airline would have been alerted and the pilot grounded accordingly.
Credit card companies access your purchasing history in order to prevent
fraud in real time.
ATM's access accounts when it is necessary to use funds.
Why can't a doctors medical records be accessible to other doctors, health care providers and health institutions in order to make more accurate diagnostics and treatments and to track outcomes.
Had the flight surgeon been aware of the other physicians diagnostics and treatments, the airline would have been alerted and the pilot grounded accordingly.
5
The description by Mr Radke doesn't fit with what we're told by the press, saying that the copilot suffered from depression.
First, I've rarely seen someone having troubles not showing it through body language. We know also that he was breathing normally minutes before the plane crashed, which is not a behavior that fits with depressed people according to specialists who spoke about his case in France. Normally, someone having a medical prescription should not stay mute.
One thing that the NYT doesn't tell is that there is election in France this sunday and it could impact the disclosing about this case, in my opinion. When the French president announced the crash, he said straightly there was no survivor whereas no information was disclosed yet about this to the public. Later, they confirmed all the passengers were dead.
Of course, if this copilot has acted that way for any other reason that doesn't fit with the political program of the two main parties in France, I don't imagine any western newspapers would tell about. There is for instance one information missing and that was not reported : was this copilot Christian or practising another faith ? It seems we're not allowed to know about this. Yet, we know that some suicide themselves bringing along the more numerous deaths they can. The religious motive is less rare than the suicide due to psychologic trouble. But as I said, it's time of election in France...
First, I've rarely seen someone having troubles not showing it through body language. We know also that he was breathing normally minutes before the plane crashed, which is not a behavior that fits with depressed people according to specialists who spoke about his case in France. Normally, someone having a medical prescription should not stay mute.
One thing that the NYT doesn't tell is that there is election in France this sunday and it could impact the disclosing about this case, in my opinion. When the French president announced the crash, he said straightly there was no survivor whereas no information was disclosed yet about this to the public. Later, they confirmed all the passengers were dead.
Of course, if this copilot has acted that way for any other reason that doesn't fit with the political program of the two main parties in France, I don't imagine any western newspapers would tell about. There is for instance one information missing and that was not reported : was this copilot Christian or practising another faith ? It seems we're not allowed to know about this. Yet, we know that some suicide themselves bringing along the more numerous deaths they can. The religious motive is less rare than the suicide due to psychologic trouble. But as I said, it's time of election in France...
Sometimes, I wonder whether our political correctness as to mental health issues actually endangers public safety. Adam Lanza who massacred 28 children and adults at a local school and this guy who obliterated 149 unsuspecting, trusting individuals support my case.
1
What does Adam Lanza have to do with political correctness? He was a severely mentally ill man who was getting no medical help and whose mother gave him firearms and enabled him to live as a hermit, not leaving his room for months, while playing violent video games.
5
What I find interesting is how much better German physicians are at protecting the confidentiality of their patients than their American counterparts. If A.L. had been American we would know a great deal more about his illnesses I suspect.
1
Flight-deck security was a necessary [ though expedient ] solution to four airliners being simultaneously taken over...the cost of establishing isolated flight-decks providing no access to the cabins at all is even more terrifying to the airline industry than the probability of another pilot-driven crash. Flight-crew instability has become another acceptable-level-of-risk in our global mass-culture...
1
Germanwings flight 9525 is analogous to Colgan Air Flight 3407, our own "cheapo" operator flight that did not quite make it to the runway in Buffalo New York on February 12, 2009.
Discounting and safe air travel don't mix. We should return to fixed air prices that allow airlines to their job properly without cutting corners.
How much would it cost to give pilots regular comprehensive physical and psychological exams?
Airlines should compete on safety and service, not on sleazy pricing schemes.
It is true that overall, flying is quite safe, but that is a legacy of the controlled prices of the past. Over time, the "cheapo" culture will turn flying into a form of Russian Roulette, where a pilot earning $22,000 a year spins the cylinder.
Discounting and safe air travel don't mix. We should return to fixed air prices that allow airlines to their job properly without cutting corners.
How much would it cost to give pilots regular comprehensive physical and psychological exams?
Airlines should compete on safety and service, not on sleazy pricing schemes.
It is true that overall, flying is quite safe, but that is a legacy of the controlled prices of the past. Over time, the "cheapo" culture will turn flying into a form of Russian Roulette, where a pilot earning $22,000 a year spins the cylinder.
9
Sadly this gives a reason for suicide if that is what happened.
I don't know if we will ever know for certain what happened in that cockpit but I hope we don't over react to this with even sillier regulations. It seems that simply requiring two people in the cockpit at all times is the best we can do.
I don't know if we will ever know for certain what happened in that cockpit but I hope we don't over react to this with even sillier regulations. It seems that simply requiring two people in the cockpit at all times is the best we can do.
I keep thinking about the German plane and its copilot. In my own late 20s I spent a lot of unhappy time thinking about suicide--it was, many days, all I could focus on--but only as a purely solitary act. I hid the depth of my misery pretty well; only my professional help knew the full depth, or almost the full depth. What this guy did was not suicide, it was mass murder. For suicide he could have gone up--and down--in a one-seat glider. I usually feel great empathy for suicide victims and the utterly confused people they often leave behind. For this guy, no, I feel condemnation.
Depression is a tough row to hoe, suicidal depression even tougher. But it's not a pathology deep enough to compel its sufferers to take others with them. I've always thought that murder-suicides are primarily murders, by people who are too cowardly to deal with the consequences.
But this act, in its enormity, its drama, and the anonymity to him of the man's victims, comes from somewhere so far beyond the boundary between health and pathology, between good and evil, that mere depression cannot scratch the surface of its motivation.
Folks, please don't turn suspicious of your depressed friends. Depressives, tell folks who you are so they'll see how many successful people they know actually suffer this malady. It's pretty common. Please don't let this inexplicable act by a madman give it a bad name.
Depression is a tough row to hoe, suicidal depression even tougher. But it's not a pathology deep enough to compel its sufferers to take others with them. I've always thought that murder-suicides are primarily murders, by people who are too cowardly to deal with the consequences.
But this act, in its enormity, its drama, and the anonymity to him of the man's victims, comes from somewhere so far beyond the boundary between health and pathology, between good and evil, that mere depression cannot scratch the surface of its motivation.
Folks, please don't turn suspicious of your depressed friends. Depressives, tell folks who you are so they'll see how many successful people they know actually suffer this malady. It's pretty common. Please don't let this inexplicable act by a madman give it a bad name.
23
Unresolved anger.
5
Not surprising that health issues, including psychological and/or visual problems, are very difficult to uncover regarding Mr. Lubitz. In my experience as an ophthalmologist examining the vision of aviators, prospective or active pilots sometimes went to great lengths to conceal such problems, fearing that their flight status would be adversely affected. Moreover, in general, visual defects were much easier to detect than psychological ones. In other words if Mr. Lubitz only had inadequate eyesight to fly, this would have almost certainly been discovered long ago. I wish it were that simple in this tragic case.
4
some of the foreign papers are reporting that his girlfriend of 7 years left him the day before the crash. Why is the American press not picking up on this?
2
You get more on line, though there may be errors, than the main stream media provides.
2
Nobody knew that this guy had a serious medical condition and was not fit to fly an airliner. Meanwhile, my government knows that last night I ordered sushi online, and this information will be stored for the eternity. Something is deeply wrong here.
6
People knew. Keep tuned to the news.
2
I have to say that I am disturbed by the way that investigators and officials in Germany -- and perhaps the media in general -- have been drizzling into the public sphere little tidbits of information about Lubitz and his as-yet-not-fully-revealed physical and psychological issues.
While of course, in the face of such a shocking and horrific tragedy, there does exist an insatiable need to know on the part of the public, I really question whether the release of information is being handled responsibly, or if it will end up causing more harm than good in the long run.
Dropping little clues here and there about what the investigation has so far uncovered while remaining mostly vague in details, offering juicy hints that can't possibly give us the big picture yet but have very much already lead to gross public speculation, misrepresentations of depression, and what I think might end up being a reinforced stigmatization of mental illness, may very well undo a lot of the great work that mental health advocates/educators have done in recent years to combat the ignorance and misconceptions, the shame and stigma surrounding mental illness. And cause the people who suffer from conditions like depression (and whatever else this investigation into Lubitz's mental health reveals) to be even less forthcoming and less willing to seek treatment in the future, which would be grave setback, in my opinion.
While of course, in the face of such a shocking and horrific tragedy, there does exist an insatiable need to know on the part of the public, I really question whether the release of information is being handled responsibly, or if it will end up causing more harm than good in the long run.
Dropping little clues here and there about what the investigation has so far uncovered while remaining mostly vague in details, offering juicy hints that can't possibly give us the big picture yet but have very much already lead to gross public speculation, misrepresentations of depression, and what I think might end up being a reinforced stigmatization of mental illness, may very well undo a lot of the great work that mental health advocates/educators have done in recent years to combat the ignorance and misconceptions, the shame and stigma surrounding mental illness. And cause the people who suffer from conditions like depression (and whatever else this investigation into Lubitz's mental health reveals) to be even less forthcoming and less willing to seek treatment in the future, which would be grave setback, in my opinion.
9
The media does it for ad revenue plain and simple.
Please just read the comment below made by jzu in Cincinatti.. perfect snapshot of human nature.. people would just stop seeking help if they thought they might lose their job.. how would that be better?? This was horrendous but very rare..
3
For all of those demanding that physicians report all signs of mental illness to the airlines-- you are missing the obvious result of your demands. Pilots will simply not seek psychiatric care for fear of losing their jobs.
Not seeking psychiatric care for fear of one's condition being placed on their records-- and dealing with the resulting stigma-- is already common practice. Measures such as the one suggested will ensure that those with mental illness will continue to live a life in the shadows.
Do not place a further barrier in the way of people who are brave enough to seek treatment.
And for those who argue that pilots are in a special category because they are responsible for the lives of others-- I would argue that people who suffer from various forms of mental illness drive cars and buses every day. And the public is more or less okay. One is far more likely to be hurt or killed in an auto accident caused by drunk driving or texting behind the wheel.
We cannot assuage our grief over this tragedy by further demonizing the mentally ill.
Not seeking psychiatric care for fear of one's condition being placed on their records-- and dealing with the resulting stigma-- is already common practice. Measures such as the one suggested will ensure that those with mental illness will continue to live a life in the shadows.
Do not place a further barrier in the way of people who are brave enough to seek treatment.
And for those who argue that pilots are in a special category because they are responsible for the lives of others-- I would argue that people who suffer from various forms of mental illness drive cars and buses every day. And the public is more or less okay. One is far more likely to be hurt or killed in an auto accident caused by drunk driving or texting behind the wheel.
We cannot assuage our grief over this tragedy by further demonizing the mentally ill.
7
Here is my theory of what happened:
(1) Lubitz loved to be a pilot, and could not imagine life in which he was deprived of the chance to fly planes.
(2) His eye and mental health issues would have stymied his effort to remain as a pilot.
(3) He then decided that if he cannot have it, he must perish by doing the very thing that he liked to do best: fly a plane.
In this act, he took the lives of 149 other innocent humans and inflicted pain and mental suffering on thousands of kith and kin.
(1) Lubitz loved to be a pilot, and could not imagine life in which he was deprived of the chance to fly planes.
(2) His eye and mental health issues would have stymied his effort to remain as a pilot.
(3) He then decided that if he cannot have it, he must perish by doing the very thing that he liked to do best: fly a plane.
In this act, he took the lives of 149 other innocent humans and inflicted pain and mental suffering on thousands of kith and kin.
7
Everyone commenting here about his privacy rights as of right now misses an essential face - he's dead. He no longer has privacy rights. Whatever the legitimate arguments may or may not be when he was alive, they are now moot. This is an investigation of a very public mass murder. We deserve to know every detail. Period, dot, end of sentence.
6
A friend of mine with a history of depression once suffered an injury that ended her hope of being an Olympic athlete. She went to community college and became a nurse, murdering a grand total of zero people. Why are we sympathizing so much with this human?
9
I worked on a number of airline crash cases and found that the problem often stemmed from economic considerations. e.g. The airline was too cheap to have enough baggage checkers working on the weekend so an explosive that was in the luggage got by. Would it have gotten by anyway? Who knows, but it would have been more likely caught if the airline had not made its bottom line its top priority. There are other examples.
I believe the reason that Germanwings did not check further into Lubitz’s hiatus and his fitness, was that its main focus was on profit, not on safety. It cost money to be thorough. This is just the tip of the iceberg. The profit motive has one put aside what the customer deserves if one can get away with it. The questions should never merely be: How can I maximize profits? But always: How can I maximize income through giving my customers what they deserve? But then that’s not the profit system. We should stop cynically accepting it. It has to go, or we will be impoverished by the 1%, who are now also trying to take over our government!
I believe the reason that Germanwings did not check further into Lubitz’s hiatus and his fitness, was that its main focus was on profit, not on safety. It cost money to be thorough. This is just the tip of the iceberg. The profit motive has one put aside what the customer deserves if one can get away with it. The questions should never merely be: How can I maximize profits? But always: How can I maximize income through giving my customers what they deserve? But then that’s not the profit system. We should stop cynically accepting it. It has to go, or we will be impoverished by the 1%, who are now also trying to take over our government!
8
I'm bored with all this endless speculation and titillating tidbits. Let's get back to the story when the investigation report is released, and leave the gossip for the scandal-rags.
10
Nothing written can equal the horror of what happened in France. But I am disgusted the public and also the media's attempt to find anything. . . a n y t h I n g . . . that might be some tie in to explain the tragedy. First it was the whispering and thought of terrorism (apparently untrue), then depression (as if he was depressed it must mean he was a psychotic - and, in this case, apparently untrue), then I read in one paper how his girlfriend broke his heart the day before (apparently untrue) . . . now, what, aha, he had vision problems so he killed a plane full of people. Stop. Stop. Maybe they will find a smoking gun. Maybe they will find something else. But we may never know. And to speculate wildly, or bind ourselves to one version so matter what else we learn, the first will forever be the first version people ever remember, is a giant insult to the people who died and it doesn't the dead back.
We have learned over and over not to rush to judgment, that we are too often wrong what happened, in the facts and in conclusion. Right now - even the conclusion that it was purposeful, which certainly seems the most likely scenario given the fact that the pilot was locked out - is at best a reasonable inference and we have to presume that they have the facts right, because we learn over and again that facts are not always as it appeared. This reminds me of when overeager prosecutors lock onto anything they can to help show a motive for murder. Stop. At least slow down.
We have learned over and over not to rush to judgment, that we are too often wrong what happened, in the facts and in conclusion. Right now - even the conclusion that it was purposeful, which certainly seems the most likely scenario given the fact that the pilot was locked out - is at best a reasonable inference and we have to presume that they have the facts right, because we learn over and again that facts are not always as it appeared. This reminds me of when overeager prosecutors lock onto anything they can to help show a motive for murder. Stop. At least slow down.
14
When you see a slightly stoop-shouldered, silver haired, later-middle-aged veteran Captain entering the cockpit of your legacy airline (United, BA, Delta, Air France).... be greatful for his 18 Thousand Flying hours. And for his eight years as an Air Force Pilot before he joined United as a junior co-pilot.
Yes, we pay more to fly on United and Air France than we do to fly on the bargain carriers.
But one of the things we are buying is that truly seasoned Captain.
Another thing we are buying is maintenance engineers with similar pedigrees.
Cheap always comes at a price!
Yes, we pay more to fly on United and Air France than we do to fly on the bargain carriers.
But one of the things we are buying is that truly seasoned Captain.
Another thing we are buying is maintenance engineers with similar pedigrees.
Cheap always comes at a price!
13
The vision, depression, nightmares leaks are hastily constructed curtains to block our view of the core issue. A man murdered over 100 people because his pilot license was at risk? I don't buy it.
Those who supply the "unfolding fact gathering" about his schooling, work history, and relationships, and illness want us to focus that schizophrenia, depression, antisocial personality,"caused" him to crash that jet.
Maybe it is that simple and I am in denial, but, as of now, I don't buy it at all.
Those who supply the "unfolding fact gathering" about his schooling, work history, and relationships, and illness want us to focus that schizophrenia, depression, antisocial personality,"caused" him to crash that jet.
Maybe it is that simple and I am in denial, but, as of now, I don't buy it at all.
6
Psychiatric and vision problems can both be caused by a brain tumor or other physical illness. If this guy had crashed the plane because of a physical illness that we all understand - say a heart attack or a seizure - we would say the crash was a terrible tragedy and dispassionately figure out ways to prevent it from happening again. But because the co-pilot likely suffered from mental illness we feel a need to demonize him and express rage and anger. The brain is a physical organ. That physical organ was malfunctioning in the co-pilot. Let's treat mental illness like any other physical illness and we will do a better job of avoiding similar tragedies in the future.
18
I wrote it several comments sections at the beginning of this tragedy and most people thought I was crazy. But I'll say it again: 1) We have no proof that this is a suicide; the language of the official investigators is deliberately ambiguous 2) We had no proof that his "illness" was psychological.
I have more faith in the investigation of the authorities who will, no doubt, comb through numerous sources. I have less faith in the speculations of armchair detectives and keyboard jockey hysterics.
I have more faith in the investigation of the authorities who will, no doubt, comb through numerous sources. I have less faith in the speculations of armchair detectives and keyboard jockey hysterics.
5
It is impossible to create reasonable policies that would prevent mass murder by anyone also willing to lose their own life. That said, we need not overreact to this latest rare occurrence because it is virtually impossible to guarantee 100 per cent safety to anyone anywhere. Wrong place at the wrong time is always tragic and always will be.
10
This is starting to feel like the Think like a Doctor column. But there will be no good answers
7
Elisabeth Kubler--Ross in "On Death and Dying" gives us two reasons: anger and depression, The man was going to lose his career. I would not discount bargaining or denial either in this man's tormented mind; certainly he did not accept his lot.
3
We can preserve medical confidentiality, but it is perfectly reasonable that a pilot agree to having any determination of lack of fitness for the job be directly reported to the airline. It's a high bar, and if I were a pilot, I would agree to it. All other medical issues that fall below that are private
Airlines can still incentivize seeking treatment by providing generous disability insurance in the rare instance that an "unfit" determination is made. They can even structure it by providing the option of a non-flying job complemented by disability insurance to match the pilot's previous salary.
There must always be an override on the door lock, whether only known to the senior pilot/captain, or controlled remotely from the tower.
Airlines can still incentivize seeking treatment by providing generous disability insurance in the rare instance that an "unfit" determination is made. They can even structure it by providing the option of a non-flying job complemented by disability insurance to match the pilot's previous salary.
There must always be an override on the door lock, whether only known to the senior pilot/captain, or controlled remotely from the tower.
7
One might think that, since Mr. Lubitz is dead, as are the other 149 people he took to their deaths, the privacy of his medical information might be rather less precious. It is exasperating to read these accounts of medical problems, without any mention of what they are. Frankly I can't imagine any medical condition that would cause this behavior.
9
I can .Consider psychotic depression, bipolar disease, paranoid schizophrenia. You must be kidding.
2
Exactly. These accounts feel rather manipulative.
(1) Medical conditions that have genetic correlations are examples of information that have privacy implications that extend beyond death. (2) The investigation will proceed at its own pace without consideration of the exasperation of public newsreaders. (3) Frankly this comment suggests limits of either imagination or knowledge of medical conditions.
I'm shocked that the authorities came to the conclusion that the co-pilot deliberately crashed the plane without a more exhaustive investigation.
I can think of many possibly scenarios that could account for his actions besides intentionally crashing the plane.
I can think of many possibly scenarios that could account for his actions besides intentionally crashing the plane.
6
DON'T JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS It is reported that the pilot was breathing steadily. It was stated that he was having eyesight problems. It was stated that he had a med. condition he tried to hide. It was stated that he did not respond to attempts by the pilot to open the door. It is also clear that he tore up medical notes from a doctor the same day as the flight. Until it is ruled out completely consider the following: The pilot does not notice anything strange in the functioning of the copilot on a short trip. The pilot leaves the cockpit; and the copilot, following procedure locks the door. If he is having medical (or cognitive) problems he could have set the lock into the "Not Override" position by mistake, and he then could have passed out or had a TIA (transient ischemic attack), which is similar to a stroke and is many times accompanied by a loss of memory. In either case, he would still be breathing but would not function as a conscious individual. Without conscious thought he would't be able to control the plane and would be unaware of it going into a steep dive, which resulted in its destruction. So before anyone accuses the co-pilot of murder, or committing suicide, we have to rule out a lot of plausible possibilities similar to the one I have sketched out above. Think about how many conscious distracted drivers have let their cars drift off the road and resulted in both non-fatal and fatal accidents. Lets not jump to conclusions, let science sort this out.
15
It's amazing to me how many people have taken the time to comment but have not taken the time to read the relatively short news accounts. The co-pilot did not follow procedure in locking the door, the door normally locks upon exit without any action. The co-pilot engaged the "lockout" switch, an extraordinary act that has a physical protection preventing inadvertent actuation. The procedure to bring the plane down could not have been accidental. According to the investigators' published account, they were able to hear the many turns of a control required to start the descent. Others have commented that he sought only psychiatric help for his problems, which is not substantiated. What has been reported is that he recently went to a vision clinic, where we presume some attempt was made to examine his vision and come up with a preliminary diagnosis. Yes, let's not jump to conclusions, but let's at least acquire the relevant information before making detailed comments. My theory: he may have had an incipient brain tumor. That's not jumping to a conclusion, it's an hypothesis.
6
I have been wondering that too, but they said that he set the plane to go down to 100 feet. I can imagine bumping a control but not typing in one zero zero. The news, which has been obsessing over the door, has not told us much about the setting for descent.
2
Far out suggest. More likely an alien invaded the cockpit.
2
The horrific truth is that a young man lost his perspective because apparently life was not going according to his plan. He then made an incomprehensible choice in the moment that opportunity to do great harm presented itself. The other pilot, understandably believing his co-pilot to be fit, left the cockpit briefly and Andreas Lubitz made a choice to lock the door kill everyone on board. Many people face the loss of their dreams, setbacks, and many people suffer from depression (both emotional and physiological), yet they do not decide to murder innocent people. Airline regulations will change because of this and maybe that will be good, maybe it will have unanticipated drawbacks, but the fact remains there seems to be an epidemic in this world of young men who feel entitled to what they want, lack the humility necessary to live life on life's terms, lack coping skills and, this is where the horror comes in, lack respect for human life. God help us.
11
Personally I believe there are more young people who are pressured into over achieving in areas where they are unable to. Life can be incredibly hard if your personality is not geared towards taking disappointments. One scenario is that this lad had worked towards being a pilot on long haul flights his entire life. He even took a job as a flight attendant to help get him a job when one became available. This in itself caused him to be ridiculed apparently when, really, he should have been applauded for his dedication. He's finally got the job he's dreamt about all his life and his career is just beginning.....when it's ended by a diagnosis of .......whatever. This is too much for his fragile personality type. Alternatively, his continuing deterioration in mental health, along with vision problems could have been symptomatic of something much more serious going on in his brain. I feel they were too quick to give a determination based only on one flight box...when the other has still to be found that will give exact details of which controls were used at the time of the crash. It's very very disturbing. I cannot understand how anybody could remain calm and how they could hear his calm breathing....just before impact. It;s harrowing.
1
There is a prevailing certainty that with enough surveillance and focused psychological testing we can filter out "undesirables" from our daily lives, thus solving the the problem of suicidal pilots. Given the alarmist calls to "do something" (arguably fueled by our sensation-based media), a blind over-reaction is guaranteed.
In my opinion, ruthless demand for conformity and perfection is creating an increasingly intolerant world. More aggressive personal surveillance with the goal of reducing an incident like this will ultimately do more harm than good. The pressure to maintain a rating of "good" can be as destructive as the negative consequences for those fairly or unfairly determined to be "bad".
If we are worried about air safety, perhaps we should first tackle the chronic problem facing younger pilots today: low wages, few benefits and increased workload.
In my opinion, ruthless demand for conformity and perfection is creating an increasingly intolerant world. More aggressive personal surveillance with the goal of reducing an incident like this will ultimately do more harm than good. The pressure to maintain a rating of "good" can be as destructive as the negative consequences for those fairly or unfairly determined to be "bad".
If we are worried about air safety, perhaps we should first tackle the chronic problem facing younger pilots today: low wages, few benefits and increased workload.
15
Low wages as a trainee is normal. And anyway, wages are not an excuse for mass murder.
4
I understand people's thought on privacy rights (or lack thereof) for someone in charge of a machine that contains 150 other people, but it's not as easy as saying "Pilots: you have no medical right to privacy." If that policy is enacted, why wouldn't a pilot who thinks he is having an issue just avoid seeking treatment, as doing so would (likely) cause him to miss time and/or be let go?
Beyond relatively easy actions that help will help address the situation in certain circumstances (e.g., two people in cockpit at all times; cockpit video recordings transmitted via internet/satellite while in the air), this will take a thoughtful, comprehensive policy. I'm interested to see what that might be, but we don't have now, in these comments or elsewhere.
Beyond relatively easy actions that help will help address the situation in certain circumstances (e.g., two people in cockpit at all times; cockpit video recordings transmitted via internet/satellite while in the air), this will take a thoughtful, comprehensive policy. I'm interested to see what that might be, but we don't have now, in these comments or elsewhere.
5
Ok, let's see if I got this right. Lubitz was being treated for psychological problems, unspecified due to German privacy protection laws, for years, even taking an extended leave of absence during flight training. Physicians treating him wrote that he should be excused from flying on the day he crashed the plane with 150 persons on board. Now we learn that he was having vision problems as well? Whom is Lufthansa protecting here? Why did the physicians treating him not report these issues to the airline? It seems clear that, for a pilot with responsibility for hundreds of lives, psychological health is just as critical as physical health, and should absolutely be reviewed on a regular basis. Measures should be taken immediately, worldwide, to require mental health reports on pilots. This would be a vital step toward preventing such a terrible tragedy from occuring.
6
Medical evaluations for even private pilots already include a psychological assessment. Almost always there are rules in place to prevent these problems. It is when the rules are not followed that problems arise. Fortunately, anomalies like this are extremely rare. The system really does work, but it depends on people respecting the rules already in place.
1
No, you got this totally wrong. These rumors about oscure German privacy laws start to get annoying. Maybe the NYT should do a feature on German privacy laws to stop these rumors.
2
Good questions. Airlines are for profit. Pilots are for salaries. Physicians perhaps can be required to report to the government agency in charge of aviation safety that is given the power to have a particular pilot grounded. That would sound too authoritarian, but no private company or individual should enjoy the liberty to kill 149 people as they please. It is a matter of priority.
2
Something has to be clarified here:
It is *not* true that the airline or German aviation authorities rely excusively on the pilots to self-report health issues.
Vision is one of the aspects that are checked regularly by the flight doctors, and it is very likely that Lubitz would have lost his license after the next check up if he really suffered from severe vision problems.
Thus, the actual reason for his amok mission might have been the fact that he anticipated the loss of his license.
It is *not* true that the airline or German aviation authorities rely excusively on the pilots to self-report health issues.
Vision is one of the aspects that are checked regularly by the flight doctors, and it is very likely that Lubitz would have lost his license after the next check up if he really suffered from severe vision problems.
Thus, the actual reason for his amok mission might have been the fact that he anticipated the loss of his license.
9
What lessons will we learn from this tragedy? Perhaps one of the lessons is that we, as a global society, must invest more time and resources in learning more about mental illness, as well as provide better access to effective treatment options.
6
Such a tragedy.....while on one level I agree with you, I have to say that this young man had plenty of access to medical and psychological care. He was in treatment, and on medication. He apparently was one of the "lucky" ones who had access to care. Sadly, sometimes things cannot be fixed, but only managed. And even, then there is no guarantee.
1
When I went to a psychotherapist, as a teenager, I would sometimes ask her, "Can this be just between us?" and she would always say, "As long as you're not thinking of hurting yourself or someone else, it is. Otherwise, I would have to share it." She specified that provision every time I introduced something I felt was secret. And in retrospect, I see how wise those parameters were. One person's right to privacy ends where the next person's safety begins.
20
And it explains why a patient would hide such thoughts. But thanks for your firm grip on the obvious.
I shudder at some of the remarks that continue with these articles about this tragedy here that assert that patient privacy is always paramount and that depression does not seem to have any real consequences.
Part of this seems to come from a basic misunderstanding that all jobs are equal, when it is clear that is not the case.
Despite what some may believe, ordinary office worker does not make split-second, detailed, life and death decisions that one sees from stressful jobs, such as an air traffic controller or airline pilot.
And for anyone, especially medical professionals, who think otherwise. clearly do not have a true understanding of the real world we live in.
Part of this seems to come from a basic misunderstanding that all jobs are equal, when it is clear that is not the case.
Despite what some may believe, ordinary office worker does not make split-second, detailed, life and death decisions that one sees from stressful jobs, such as an air traffic controller or airline pilot.
And for anyone, especially medical professionals, who think otherwise. clearly do not have a true understanding of the real world we live in.
9
If the patient poses a direct threat to public safety, it is the responsibility of the physician or psychologist to inform the proper authorities. If this does not happen, his or her license WILL be revoked, and he or she WILL faces charges. Why are the laws in German so lenient? This person (pilot) was a menace to society.
5
Maybe he did not tell his doctors?
3
We want so desperately to make sense of the senseless that we cannot wait for full review. This frenzy to know what is not yet known has done much to restigmatize mental illness. What good will come of this, Icannot imsgine.
7
I believe that it is established by now that his doctor deemed him unfit to work on that fateful day, his ex-girlfriend said that he had talked about his "name would one day be known to the whole world, and changes in regulations would happen", and that his training was interrupted for 6 months because of mental health issues. And now, that he also had vision problems that could have triggered more depression. The biggest question IMHO remaining is, what did his doctor know and when? If he let Lubitz walk out of his office with a simple note and the hope that the man would self-report his disqualification from flying that day, while being aware that he could harm himself or others, he committed a crime, or at least made a deeply flawed (morally) decision. He sent a mass murderer on his way to extinguish the lives of 149 innocents, children among them, whose terror during their last minutes alive is unimaginable. Now it is wait and see what medical information will be forthcoming and why Lubitz wasn't being monitored if there were red flags.
10
Egregious example of Monday-morning quarterbacking, "retrospectoscoping" and scapegoating. There is no reason to think either that any treating doctor should have had an inkling of what was to come or that the standards and norms of the treating professions were in any way violated.
8
Did you not read the many "if's" in my comment ? I hold the doctor in no way responsible at this point, but the question remains: What did he know and when did he know it ? Maybe he knew nothing, that's why I said let's wait for the medical information that will be forthcoming in the future. Cool your boots, my friend.
Dennis, You obviously did not read my comment with the least bit of attention. I never accused the doctor of being guilty of anything, but I qualified my remarks with the caveat that IF the doctor had enough insight into the patient's obviously difficult mental condition to suspect that he could harm himself or others, that would be a problem. How could he under those circumstances have expected that Lubitz would self-report his disqualification from flying that day ? Again: What did his doctor know, and when did he know it, becomes the central question. And, have there been other red flags in the past, besides the ones that we already know of, that should have triggered a closer monitoring of co-pilot Lubitz ? How is this Monday quarterbacking, as you so derisively put it ? Everybody wants an answer to these questions.
There were problems before, during training - neuropsychiatric, but not depression we were told - then it went better and he was found fit to fly, but pending on some non-disclosed restrictions. Burst of problems, but possibly intermittently, with remissions and relapses. And now, eye problems that would disqualify him.
This could well be multiple sclerosis, with a recent relapse in the form of vision problem (single eye blindness?) and the unbearable fate of being grounded because of an unjust disease. Sad
This could well be multiple sclerosis, with a recent relapse in the form of vision problem (single eye blindness?) and the unbearable fate of being grounded because of an unjust disease. Sad
6
Lots of people suffer from "unjust diseases". They don't murder people. My sadness for the man stops when he decided to kill 149 people.
3
And now vision problems. That certainly does not explain why he locked out the Captain from entering the cockpit. Psychological problems does explain his actions though. All the space devoted to how much he loved flying is irrelevant. The fact is 150 people were killed. All the reasoning does not absolve him of the tragedy which occurred due to his actions. The fact that his privacy took precedence before the safety of the passengers is not justifiable. The doctors had a duty to inform the authorities when there was the possibility he could could cause harm especially when they were aware of the nature of his job.
This was a preventable tragedy.
This was a preventable tragedy.
13
How can an airline place the lives of hundreds of people into someone hands, without being 1000% sure that the person is reliable. And how does an airline take a kid from a job at Burger King and put him in the captain's seat? Lufthansa should disband itself and the Chancellor of Germany should resign as an act of telling the world how badly her country messed up.
5
You can never be 1000% sure that a person will not freak out.
The airline did *not* take Lubitz from Burger King directly to the captain's seat. They put him into a trainee program in 2008, and seven years later he was still only a co-pilot. You might complain that it was to early for him to be in the cockpit of a plane as large as the A320, but then again, European airlines educate most of their pilots inhouse, and Germanwings has almost an Airbus only fleet.
The airline did *not* take Lubitz from Burger King directly to the captain's seat. They put him into a trainee program in 2008, and seven years later he was still only a co-pilot. You might complain that it was to early for him to be in the cockpit of a plane as large as the A320, but then again, European airlines educate most of their pilots inhouse, and Germanwings has almost an Airbus only fleet.
6
Look, he was working a part time job when he was a high schooler. How many students work jobs like that until they finish school? How many people work jobs like that until they get something better--ask college grads who cannot get other jobs? How many people work these jobs waiting on civil service lists? How many people work these jobs semi-permanently?
It's not reasonable to point to something like that as proof he was not material for a better job. My kid worked in a pizza joint and went on to get a Master's. My sib worked in a coffee shop and received a marketing degree. Another sib worked a liquor store job, went to college, became a cop and went to law school.
Lubitz's medical record may be far more important in this tragedy but his high school job isn't.
It's not reasonable to point to something like that as proof he was not material for a better job. My kid worked in a pizza joint and went on to get a Master's. My sib worked in a coffee shop and received a marketing degree. Another sib worked a liquor store job, went to college, became a cop and went to law school.
Lubitz's medical record may be far more important in this tragedy but his high school job isn't.
3
As far as we know, the crash was NOT due to the professional inexperience of the co-pilot. The plane did not crash because a kid out of a fast food chain did not know how to fly a plane.
1
I would like to ask two simple questions:
"If a person has vision problems OR even psychosis, would that condition last for eight minutes so as not to open the door?"
I see many web-pages that it is possible to open the door using a code. Did the captain forget the code? And if that was true and the co-pilot wanted to bring down the plane then how would the co-pilot know that the captain has lost the code and he could bring down the plane?
None of these theories work!
"If a person has vision problems OR even psychosis, would that condition last for eight minutes so as not to open the door?"
I see many web-pages that it is possible to open the door using a code. Did the captain forget the code? And if that was true and the co-pilot wanted to bring down the plane then how would the co-pilot know that the captain has lost the code and he could bring down the plane?
None of these theories work!
5
I'm not sure I understand your first question. Both of these conditions are chronic. He didn't crash the plane because he suddenly couldn't see the control panel. As for depression, that's far more complicated, and there's no telling what was going through his mind. Years of depression coupled with the possibility of losing his dream job due to vision problems plus a recent breakup are a more likely explanation (and I'm not implying in ANY way that this was justified).
As for your second question, the pilot did enter the code, but Lubitz manually overrode it to keep the cockpit door locked.
As for your second question, the pilot did enter the code, but Lubitz manually overrode it to keep the cockpit door locked.
@deep thought: the pilot inside can actively reject the unlocking of the door by code. There is a button "reject", as far as I know from German media. The sense: For example if crew members are forced to enter the code by aed terrorists.
D. Thought: After the code is entered, anyone in the cockpit can keep the door locked by actively operating an electrical switch during the 30-second period before the door is unlocked for only 5 seconds before it relocks. The loud warning tone after the code is entered would be audible on the cockpit voice recorder, so investigators know whether the pilot had entered the code.
I'm reading this and other stories about this pilots depression and problems, and actually quite sick of portraying him as a mental illness victim. My God, this man planned and intentionaly crashed 154 innocent people into a mountain and killed them. He is an evil psychopath and nothing more.
16
So he didn't have a mental illness, but he was a psychopath?
It appears that it was up to the pilot himself to give his employer a doctor's report that he had health issues that prevented him from flying safely. This is not good.
15
Mr. Lubitz did not disclose his condition to his employer.
All lies lead to tragedies, even worse than that, as we witnessed during the last 15 years.
All lies lead to tragedies, even worse than that, as we witnessed during the last 15 years.
6
GM hid their mechanical defect for years and people were convicted and jailed for manslaughter to protect the company. Honda hid the air bag defect that endangers all their drivers with air bags.
No one kills themselves and others with a gradual 8 minute descent while breathing normally. This is character assassination by a corporation trying to avoid liability.
No one kills themselves and others with a gradual 8 minute descent while breathing normally. This is character assassination by a corporation trying to avoid liability.
10
I had wondered and still wonder about that. I think I understood them to say that if he had pointed the plane straight down or turned off the engines there would be systems that would override that. The setting that he had (gradual descent) would have been perfectly all right if there hadn't been a mountain in the way.
a long shot, but could this tragic young man have been developing a brain tumor? There are a few similarities to the Texas Tower shootings.
6
Good question, but we will never know because Lubitz sought psychiatric help instead of searching for the underlying reasons for his depression. Psychiatry only treats symptoms - with drugs or electroshock, which are designed to suppress undesirable symptoms; these treatments are not designed to improve the patient's physical health in any way.
5
I do not think the possibility of a tumor is a long shot at all. I would like to read the opinion of medical professionals with experience with similar cases. There is so much to uncover with this case, and we will never be confident of any explanation. I am disgusted with the rush to judgment involving Muslims. Too many rumors are printed as fact and then get copied all over the Internet. I have flown on Lufthansa a couple of times and found the personnel very courteous and helpful. I would fly on Lufthansa again. Our lives are full of risk and the risk cannot be eliminated. This particular time the security of the cockpit door failed. It was a good idea after the hijackings in 2001 and it still is. We need a way to lock out a problem from getting to the controls of a large jet. Comprehensive mental, physical, and emotional exams could be part of a solution. Think of the possibilities that could involve Secret Service personnel.
1
I don't care about his Burger King Job or how harppy he was or how helpful he was or that he needed to see an eye doctor. He is a mass murderer. It wasn't just the pilot who was trying to get back in the cockpit that he heard. It was also the screams of terror from the passengers that he heard. It didn't matter. He was determined to kill them all and knowing that he would die, he also knew his prediction that everyone would know his name was about to happen But with all of this nice nice talk about him, their is nothing about the ones he murdered. There not even a statistic in this article. They deserve a mention and more. They had jobs and homes and families and plans that will never happen. He murdered all of that and affected the lives of countless people how loved and knew the ones who died.
35
Well put. Unusual is also the lack of any comments by young persons who knew him in school or as a pilot - I've lived in Germany - that is a red flag for a self-absorbed loner who appeared well dressed, behaved "politely" and gave little indication to what was inside. The persons murdered really do deserve more attention.
2
Yes, he *was* a mass murderer as every other person who runs amok. Nobody denied that.
1
The type of absurd tragedy that occurred and the manner in which it occurred is so rare that even if an attempt to prevent another such occurrence could succeed, those instituted measures may not succeed in preventing an equally absurd and equally rare occurrence of an altogether different sort. No system can predict every sort of failure without unlimited resources. And trying to create such an infallible system may, simply, not be worth the resources or the cost. Life is full of risk. As a society, we must accept a certain amount of risk in order to function at all; we must accept that a system that performs at 99.99% perfection might just have to be good enough.
20
Exactly, the fact the other pilot could be locked out of the cockpit is a direct reaction to 9/11. We haven't had another 9/11 but we got this instead. Every decision has trade-offs. The security argument won over the access argument 14 years ago and we're living with the aftermath.
4
I promulgated the idea of a work related issue. Thus it seems to be moving toward this. But despite the allegations of "depression" was it clinically diagnosed? Moreover, were events beginning to creep into his work evaluations and workplace conditions? Did he have a scintilla of a negative performance rating, evaluation or a negative comment written about him inside of his work domain? That could have set off a chain of reactions in his personality that led him to believe that things would only escalate until the inevitable end of a very short career. If he was so driven to fly, and it was his only passion in life, then perhaps that could also exacerbate his increasingly despondent and bleak outlook on his immediate future. Again I say that the major corporations involved (in particular Lufthansa), the government, family, friends, and associates are still being questioned. Documents are still surfacing. There is still so much to know about the motives of co-pilot and 1st officer Andreas Lubitz. I am not fully satisfied with the measured workplace responses at this point and believe that Lufthansa's drive for money and profits could be a possibility for wanting to down play any negative treatment, remarks, written evaluations, etc. Any one of these things could have negatively impacted Herr Lubitz’ state of mind. Withholding of such information from the public would be plausible so as not to throw the public into a panic and fear of flying on their airlines.
6
This more than anything demonstrates the impotence of health information technology in America and abroad. While the government forces all physicians, health care providers and hospitals to adapt expensive electronic medical or hospital records and billing systems, there's no integration or standardization of software
This lack of integration and software standardization of health information technology, digital health and mhealth devices prevents doctors and in this instance airlines from being able to optimally care for their patients and to protect the public.
Tens of billions of dollars are being spent on HIT (Health Information Technology) forced upon health care providers by the government. HIT used by doctors and hospitals is the only software used by any oindustry which fails to improve the cost or quality of the products produced (outcomes).
Due to lack of standardization and integration we can't keep medically unfit pilots out of the cockpit.
HOW MANY MORE PILOTS ARE FIBBING TO THEIR FLIGHT SURGEONS AROUND THE WORLD ON THEIR FLIGHT PHYSICALS? We'll never know until electronic medical records are standardized and integrated amongst all providers and institutions.
This lack of integration and software standardization of health information technology, digital health and mhealth devices prevents doctors and in this instance airlines from being able to optimally care for their patients and to protect the public.
Tens of billions of dollars are being spent on HIT (Health Information Technology) forced upon health care providers by the government. HIT used by doctors and hospitals is the only software used by any oindustry which fails to improve the cost or quality of the products produced (outcomes).
Due to lack of standardization and integration we can't keep medically unfit pilots out of the cockpit.
HOW MANY MORE PILOTS ARE FIBBING TO THEIR FLIGHT SURGEONS AROUND THE WORLD ON THEIR FLIGHT PHYSICALS? We'll never know until electronic medical records are standardized and integrated amongst all providers and institutions.
4
Will this stop at airline pilots which seem to be the profession being scrutinized today? Do you really want the government (or your employer) scanning your medical records? Isn't intercepting all of your communications by the NSA enough? The argument in both cases is we won't use the information unless we suspect you've done something. Yet we read about NSA employees running "love queries" on supposedly highly restricted databases of the nation's communications metadata. I, for one, am willing to accept a infinitesimal increase in flying risk in the trade-off to protect medical information. Heck, even with this event, the risk of dying getting to the airport itself is orders of magnitude higher than dying during a flight.
5
Standardizing health records and compiling them will just mean more government idiocy in our lives. A patient is going to lie when they ave to so as not to jeopardize their future or job position.
Also, as intelligent humans, it is our responsibility to contribute to our good outcome. It is my body, my behavior, my responsibility to help care for myself. Software won't make people put down their french fries. Software and integrated records sent to the government won't make me take a longer walk. Human behavior will always be flawed. Look at cigarettes....everyone knows they kill yet I waled past three people this morning smoking away.
Also, as intelligent humans, it is our responsibility to contribute to our good outcome. It is my body, my behavior, my responsibility to help care for myself. Software won't make people put down their french fries. Software and integrated records sent to the government won't make me take a longer walk. Human behavior will always be flawed. Look at cigarettes....everyone knows they kill yet I waled past three people this morning smoking away.
2
Get over it!
Insurance companies have been bartering, selling and trading that data for actuarial risk analysis for decades.
The truth is that physicians need that information from other physicians and institutions in order to diagnose and treat properly, and track outcomes.
There is no sane reason not to integrate and standardize electronic medical records and billing systems.
Insurance companies have been bartering, selling and trading that data for actuarial risk analysis for decades.
The truth is that physicians need that information from other physicians and institutions in order to diagnose and treat properly, and track outcomes.
There is no sane reason not to integrate and standardize electronic medical records and billing systems.
1
As certain physical conditions prevent one from piloting a plane, so should certain mental conditions. And while society takes it's sweet time placing mental health on the same plane as physical health, we will continue to be battered over our collective heads with school shootings, plane crashing and yes, terrorist events, until we treat both equally.
We go to pediatricians within weeks of our births and yet wait decades, if ever, to have the physical health of our brains examined. If you don't see the problem with this then you are part of the problem.
We go to pediatricians within weeks of our births and yet wait decades, if ever, to have the physical health of our brains examined. If you don't see the problem with this then you are part of the problem.
7
Do we know all the facts at this point yet? People have all sorts of suggestions to "prevent" the same event happen again based on conjectures!
The lost of 149 lives due to the co-pilot's action (assuming the finding is absolutely beyond questions) is horrible and tragic. So much talks and comments in the past few days attributed the pilot's action to depression. Not all depressed people will do something like this. The talks and comments might contribute to further stigmatization of depression and prevent people from seeking proper treatment.
Also, let us not lose sight that more innocent people die every year due to gun violence and inadequate gun control laws.
The lost of 149 lives due to the co-pilot's action (assuming the finding is absolutely beyond questions) is horrible and tragic. So much talks and comments in the past few days attributed the pilot's action to depression. Not all depressed people will do something like this. The talks and comments might contribute to further stigmatization of depression and prevent people from seeking proper treatment.
Also, let us not lose sight that more innocent people die every year due to gun violence and inadequate gun control laws.
11
A person could hide his mental issues with self-reports, but a brain scan may have shown anomalies in the co-pilot's brain function. Someday we must treat these disorders without stigmatizing them--similar to if a person has type 1 diabetes. Understanding is the key. We still sometimes treat the mind as the "ghost in the machine" but if parts of a person's brain aren't functioning right, and they aren't getting proper treatment, it is very hard for them to make appropriate decisions. Rarely are the consequences of missing the warning signs so catastrophic, but we can do better, especially in the case of people who have so many other people's lives in their hands.
3
Many mental illnesses do not show up on brain scans, at least under the kinds of scans currently available.
1
I know someone with mild mental illness who had wavy lines in front of their eyes from time to time, but doctors could find nothing physical.
My feelings are, he just saw going into a mountain an easy way to end it all, and he didn't care about his passengers one way or another. I think you can never be completely sure of anyone's intentions, so the best way to prevent this type of thing is to have two people in the cabin at all times, preferably a male airline steward. Also when the steward is in the cabin with the pilot or copilot, the pilot/copilot should not be allowed to leave their seat, if they do, then the steward should ring an alarm for the other to come back. That way you can be sure the door can be manually opened without interference.
My feelings are, he just saw going into a mountain an easy way to end it all, and he didn't care about his passengers one way or another. I think you can never be completely sure of anyone's intentions, so the best way to prevent this type of thing is to have two people in the cabin at all times, preferably a male airline steward. Also when the steward is in the cabin with the pilot or copilot, the pilot/copilot should not be allowed to leave their seat, if they do, then the steward should ring an alarm for the other to come back. That way you can be sure the door can be manually opened without interference.
5
Did anybody consider the probability that a passenger could have slipped through the cockpit door, inadvertently left open by the captain, and that this passenger incapacitated the the co-pilot or killed him and took controls. Is there any evidence against this scenario?
6
They have retrieved, heard and analysed the voice recording of the whole flight.
Therefore. as it would be most unlikely to be possible to incapacitate the co-pilot or kill him (and still have his breathing sounds - on his channel - recorded as normal right to the moment of the crash) without making a sound, there IS evidence against this scenario.
Therefore. as it would be most unlikely to be possible to incapacitate the co-pilot or kill him (and still have his breathing sounds - on his channel - recorded as normal right to the moment of the crash) without making a sound, there IS evidence against this scenario.
Yes. The voice recorder would have picked that up easily.
1
I can't help but feel that someone knows the full story of this man's medical condition -- a family member, a friend or a girlfriend -- and is not coming forward. Most people don't go these things alone. I wish they would come forward and tell the full story. There's an amazing amount of sympathy out there for him, it shouldn't be wasted letting people speciulate endlessly.
6
I'm finding it very difficult to feel compassion for the co-pilot. I assume he was mentally ill - maybe vision issues were hallucinations, who knows? Makes one wonder if there were any signs that the airline could or should have noted. Is there something inherent in a budget airline that would create more likelihood of a tragedy such as this? Medical privacy should not be above common sense. Seems that this fellow may have been eligible for a '5150', meaning danger to self or others...he was both. If medical staff determined he was unfit to pilot an airplane, they (should) have a legal and ethical duty to so inform the airline. I can't imagine that medical providers would allow a loved one to enter an airplane piloted by this individual.
7
If you ask me, he was suffering from an undiagnosed personality disorder, as do most mass murderers and people who run amok.
3
Also most mentally ill do not experience visual hallucinations, because there are many forms of mental illness, some severe some less severe. But hallucinations are only common in certain cases. Also severely mentally ill persons are (generally) not able to hold full-time demanding, public jobs.
I agree with the personality disorder possibility.
I agree with the personality disorder possibility.
2
All else aside, one over-riding fact remains.
Totally indifferent, malicious, lethal, inhuman behavior of this magnitude is more than just suicide. It is murder.
It is a sickness of mind especially since the screaming of passengers could be heard on tape and most likely could be heard by the murdering pilot as well.
For such persons simple suicide is not enough.
They have an overriding need to make a statement that can be heard not only in their own small, individual world, but also in a larger world.
Motivation - simple and overall - must be closely examined. Such behavior impacts the employing airline and worldwide airline travel as well.
Therefore the act can and should be classified as terrorism as it implants fear in us all.
An international organization of some kind or the UN should formulate the policy in the form of a law that states the families of airline personnel who execute such a plan of destruction of innocent people will be held responsible in a financial sense as well as a legal sense of murder after the fact.
It may or may not impact and influence a murderer, but whatever may bring such behavior to an end is worthwhile - to make the act as impossible as possible is the goal.
All avenues should be explored to render such heinous behavior as never being capable of execution again.
I feel certain that the majority of us has just had the fear of air travel implanted in our minds, if only momentarily.
And isn't this what terrorism is all about.
Totally indifferent, malicious, lethal, inhuman behavior of this magnitude is more than just suicide. It is murder.
It is a sickness of mind especially since the screaming of passengers could be heard on tape and most likely could be heard by the murdering pilot as well.
For such persons simple suicide is not enough.
They have an overriding need to make a statement that can be heard not only in their own small, individual world, but also in a larger world.
Motivation - simple and overall - must be closely examined. Such behavior impacts the employing airline and worldwide airline travel as well.
Therefore the act can and should be classified as terrorism as it implants fear in us all.
An international organization of some kind or the UN should formulate the policy in the form of a law that states the families of airline personnel who execute such a plan of destruction of innocent people will be held responsible in a financial sense as well as a legal sense of murder after the fact.
It may or may not impact and influence a murderer, but whatever may bring such behavior to an end is worthwhile - to make the act as impossible as possible is the goal.
All avenues should be explored to render such heinous behavior as never being capable of execution again.
I feel certain that the majority of us has just had the fear of air travel implanted in our minds, if only momentarily.
And isn't this what terrorism is all about.
6
"An international organization of some kind or the UN should formulate the policy in the form of a law that states the families of airline personnel who execute such a plan of destruction of innocent people will be held responsible in a financial sense as well as a legal sense of murder after the fact." That's ridiculous! Why would his family be held responsible???
To Romina.
The point is to make the lethal person, contemplating such lethal behavior toward innocent victims, very aware that the action he is planning will have serious consequences.
As it now stands such behavior has no consequences and repercussions do not exist for that person.
Granted, it may not always deter the action but it is something to consider by the person before he executes his lethal ,,,,,,,, whim of self-destruction.
Also any one familiar with such a person, who is known to be responsible for the lives of many other persons, may sooner bring attention to that person.
I see no reason not to put such a policy and plan into effect. Leave it to the law and to judicious persons to evaluate circumstances - extenuating or otherwise.
The point is to make the lethal person, contemplating such lethal behavior toward innocent victims, very aware that the action he is planning will have serious consequences.
As it now stands such behavior has no consequences and repercussions do not exist for that person.
Granted, it may not always deter the action but it is something to consider by the person before he executes his lethal ,,,,,,,, whim of self-destruction.
Also any one familiar with such a person, who is known to be responsible for the lives of many other persons, may sooner bring attention to that person.
I see no reason not to put such a policy and plan into effect. Leave it to the law and to judicious persons to evaluate circumstances - extenuating or otherwise.
Of course he sought treatment for his vision problems before the crash. It would be rather difficult for him to seek treatment after the crash, now wouldn't it?
4
This story just gets stranger as we go. I'm sure there will be more unearthed in the coming weeks re: relationship woes, job security concerns, and possibly religious affiliations. At 27, with a passel of problems, and an incapacity to be responsible for so many lives far more admirable, accomplished, and frankly worthier, than his own--that he should have been taken out of this role immediately seems so obvious. Instead, his condition remained unnoticed--or perhaps too taboo to be spoken of.
2
The problem here is the system and this incident is a huge wake-up call which has been waiting to happen. First and foremost in my opinion no privately schooled/trained pilot, no matter how many hours logged can ever be a commercial airline pilot...it's military trained only Chesley Sullenberger is a model example. Years back domestic flights had 3 in the cockpit and international 4; Pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer and navigator. It was a fail-safe system, but computers and cutting cost causes many problems. Lubitz should have never occupied this job in the first place...at best he could have been flying for the postal service or freight carriers like FedEx. As far as regular screening, that needs to be revamped big time. One of the biggest issue globally USA included is alcoholism. The age old rule of thumb is 8 hours from bottle-to-throttle and that's no longer good enough. The finding with Lubitz should have been diagnosed through company and or Europe's FAA equivalent physician who can ground a pilot based on findings and not a private physician. At the end of the day the USA's system and other countries (Malaysian air) need to regroup and have a global committee to fix these problems together. There are over a million of daily flights globally so we can all be on any flights at any time. We need to work through these issues together.
7
What is this supposed to mean: "the authorities had not ruled out the possibility that the vision problem could have been psychosomatic." There is no human ailment in the world that cannot be "possibly psychosomatic." Why was this statement necessary?
I am alarmed at how quickly and with such certainty the "authorities" came to the decision that this crash was a deliberate act by this now-dead man. It is such a horrific position to reach that one would think they would test and retest all hypotheses before coming to this, surely the very worst and last conclusion they would hope to reach. I would think it would take more than a couple days.
I am alarmed at how quickly and with such certainty the "authorities" came to the decision that this crash was a deliberate act by this now-dead man. It is such a horrific position to reach that one would think they would test and retest all hypotheses before coming to this, surely the very worst and last conclusion they would hope to reach. I would think it would take more than a couple days.
16
I just had a diagnosis of macular degeneration....early..but not good either. Facing potential vision changes or having them is a real game changer for anyone. Much less a person with mental health issues ..and struggling with the possibility of a career that could be lost. I have been depressed as hell over it. Vision issue should have been seen as mandated reporting to protect the flying public.
8
I'm not at all convinced he had a diagnosed mental health condition. Show us real evidence. Anything I've read about this notably limits use of actual quotation marks to comments about "a medical condition," nothing more specific. Otherwise most every news source is vaguely attributing supposed comments about a specific mental health issue to unnamed 'authorities.'
Vision problems alone would have been enough to ground him, as well as make him despondent about any future in his chosen career. But even this is not being reported with certainty, only as rumor and hearsay. Speculation is running far, far ahead of any solid evidence in this case, due to peoples' need for a quick and tidy "reason" for such a tragedy. In the process, depression and other mental health issues, despite their utter commonness, are being blindly re-stigmatized in a knee-jerk fashion.
Vision problems alone would have been enough to ground him, as well as make him despondent about any future in his chosen career. But even this is not being reported with certainty, only as rumor and hearsay. Speculation is running far, far ahead of any solid evidence in this case, due to peoples' need for a quick and tidy "reason" for such a tragedy. In the process, depression and other mental health issues, despite their utter commonness, are being blindly re-stigmatized in a knee-jerk fashion.
19
“If no action was taken, there’s a flaw in the system.”
The "flaw" would be greed. One has to wonder why such a young man was hired at all. Certainly there must be plenty of older, very qualified pilots who could have worked for Germanwings but they would have wanted/need/demanded a higher salary. The fault of this tragedy, to me, falls squarely on Lufthansa and it's subsidiary, Germanwings. I'm sure the CEO's of both companies make huge salaries, partly as reward for cutting costs. But flying passengers isn't like making widgets. When will corporations be held accountable?
The "flaw" would be greed. One has to wonder why such a young man was hired at all. Certainly there must be plenty of older, very qualified pilots who could have worked for Germanwings but they would have wanted/need/demanded a higher salary. The fault of this tragedy, to me, falls squarely on Lufthansa and it's subsidiary, Germanwings. I'm sure the CEO's of both companies make huge salaries, partly as reward for cutting costs. But flying passengers isn't like making widgets. When will corporations be held accountable?
11
Lufthansa is known for training its pilots from scratch, even those without prior experience so all training is focused on turning them into commercial jet pilots from the beginning. It is possible for him to have more commercial jet experience than other pilots coming from the private pilot world. But I think the number of hours combined with his youth should preclude his being left in the cockpit alone.
2
Just imagine, for a moment, that the diagnosis was glaucoma or retinitis pigmentosa. Life as a pilot gone for good, dreams over. I work with the visually impaired and understand the grieving of a life changed for always. Look at the five stages of grieving and you might find a clue to the distorted mindset. Why me? What did I do to deserve this? Anger, Despair....etc.
2
I fail to see how that translates into "So I'll kill myself and 149 others."
Obviously he was unbalanced, whether by the devastating news of his condition or some combination of that and already existing mental health problems, and was not able to carry through with his obligation to inform his employer. In cases involving occupations where the safety of so many relies on the capabilities of so few, the examining medical facility should be able to set aside individual privacy concerns and contact the employer directly.
Obviously he was unbalanced, whether by the devastating news of his condition or some combination of that and already existing mental health problems, and was not able to carry through with his obligation to inform his employer. In cases involving occupations where the safety of so many relies on the capabilities of so few, the examining medical facility should be able to set aside individual privacy concerns and contact the employer directly.
1
And apparently from a religious background (mother was organist at 2 churches), was he angry with God? "Why me? Why not them?" This would be a narcissistic personality. Of course not all narcissists become callow murderers.
2
At some airlines around the world any previous record of psychological illness is an automatic disqualified from employment. No ands ifs or buts. Perhaps this is too harsh, and certainly every airline has the right to decide if they feel comfortable with hiring pilots with such a record. However, it should be made public if their hiring policies permit this, so that I the passenger can decide if I also feel comfortable with it or if I prefer an airline that does not hire such applicants.
3
This leaves open the door for blatant discrimination amongst people who have mental health conditions but who under treatment are successful, productive members of society.
1
There are plenty of professions where the mentally ill are "discriminated against" and rightly so. That includes the mental health field itself. Did you know that those who apply to police academies in the USA are put through personality and psychological testing? If they don't think your personality can handle the stress of the job (too sensitive or empathic), you're rejected. That happened to a friend of mine. No mental problems, just a personality considered too sensitive for the job stress. The reality is that not all people are made for for all jobs. If the co-pilot was too stressed out to handle training (as some have reported), he was too sensitive a personality (a sensitive nervous system that struggles with overstimulation) to be a pilot. If he couldn't handle the training stress, he couldn't handle the job stress. That's not discrimination.
2
Anyone wondering if there is still a stigma against mental illness need look no further than these comments. We do not know this person's diagnosis yet there is a rabid and sanctimonious assumption that the airline should have known he was a "madman" and a "lunatic," and that he should not have been a co-pilot. I am sickened by these comments.
39
If I can no longer enjoy the ability to aviate then none of these people, including my fellow flight crew ever will either. How often have we seen this syndrome before? In possessive and murdering spouses; in family annihilators, et cetera. In the general population there's little we can do to prevent these gruesome acts of nihilistic selfishness. However in the airline industry, the mental health of those responsible for the lives of hundreds must be more closely monitored, even if it amounts to an invasion of privacy.
11
Based on what we know:
1. Andreas' life was unraveling, in the two most important areas, Work and Love. His girlfriend had left him due to his problems and it was only a matter of time before he lost his job, his dream job since childhood.
2. His eye symptoms were on the verge of being labeled "psychosomatic" since no medical explanation for whatever he was experiencing had come to light. Eye symptoms, whatever the cause we're compounding his impending loss of a job, income, and his lifelong dream.
What I hypothesize as a retired clinical psychologist:
1. Andreas' view of himself as someone who would come to worldwide fame suggests a possible underlying psychosis - with delusions of grandeur. If psychotic at times, this would have impaired reasoning, including moral reasoning. The psychosomatic aspect would then likely be part of his psychotic symptom picture. And add a dose of paranoia, which partly explains his keeping all this secret and not cooperating with medical advice to stay off work.
2. The failures he was facing, in work and love likely provoked unmanageable feelings of shame. Shame is an unbearable state of mind in which a person's wish is to disappear, to cease to exist or obliterate one's psyche.
I offer the hypothesis that this young man's life crises, together with both a sense of unbearable shame and delusions of grandeur may explain what happened. A plane set in motion to erase himself has indeed led to his notoriety.
May God have mercy!
1. Andreas' life was unraveling, in the two most important areas, Work and Love. His girlfriend had left him due to his problems and it was only a matter of time before he lost his job, his dream job since childhood.
2. His eye symptoms were on the verge of being labeled "psychosomatic" since no medical explanation for whatever he was experiencing had come to light. Eye symptoms, whatever the cause we're compounding his impending loss of a job, income, and his lifelong dream.
What I hypothesize as a retired clinical psychologist:
1. Andreas' view of himself as someone who would come to worldwide fame suggests a possible underlying psychosis - with delusions of grandeur. If psychotic at times, this would have impaired reasoning, including moral reasoning. The psychosomatic aspect would then likely be part of his psychotic symptom picture. And add a dose of paranoia, which partly explains his keeping all this secret and not cooperating with medical advice to stay off work.
2. The failures he was facing, in work and love likely provoked unmanageable feelings of shame. Shame is an unbearable state of mind in which a person's wish is to disappear, to cease to exist or obliterate one's psyche.
I offer the hypothesis that this young man's life crises, together with both a sense of unbearable shame and delusions of grandeur may explain what happened. A plane set in motion to erase himself has indeed led to his notoriety.
May God have mercy!
9
What about a narcissistic personality disorder?
2
Perhaps vision problems prevented the copilot from seeing the oil light was on?
1
I find it incredible that thousands of readers contort themselves into pretzel shape in an attempt to put the blame on everybody but the actual perpetrator. The airline, the doctors, the poor guy who loved flying so much he didn't want to give it up in spite of medical advice.... what's next, the devil made him do it? There seems to be a pervasive syndrome here of refusing to acknowledge individual responsibility. If this man was so terribly unbalanced, how could his condition not be observed by co-workers and family? It didn't develop overnight, and if he was able to hide it so well and behave like a normal person, he was acting, and that suggests his brain was functioning pretty well, albeit in a murderous way. Why can't we just accept that there is a lot of evil in the human race? It's always been there, since Cain.
If he had just wanted to die, this young man could have found a hundred other ways. Instead, like most mass killers, he wanted to make a big impression, some kind of statement, be famous and be remembered, if for all the wrong reasons. Some blow up buildings, some open automatic gun fire in a crowded place, some deliberately crash a plane full of strangers. Stop making excuses people, he is a murderer and a coward.
If he had just wanted to die, this young man could have found a hundred other ways. Instead, like most mass killers, he wanted to make a big impression, some kind of statement, be famous and be remembered, if for all the wrong reasons. Some blow up buildings, some open automatic gun fire in a crowded place, some deliberately crash a plane full of strangers. Stop making excuses people, he is a murderer and a coward.
34
M. Imberti, I could not agree with you more. I, too, wonder at those who seek always to excuse the heinous crimes of others. In fact, it's often the same people who excuse crimes such as this by saying that it's mental illness to blame [rather than the individual who also say that society has no right to stigmatize the mentally ill by keeping them from highly responsible positions like that of pilot. One can't have it both ways. Either those with mental illness are capable of holding any and all positions and being judged by their actions without recourse to their diagnosis or there are some positions the mentally ill are unsuited to hold and should be kept from for the general good.
3
I agree.
3
Me too.
APsychologist on cnn speculated yesterday he may have been diagnosed with MS, which for a pilot would be the end of a career. Vision problems, depression for this is vert ytpical. If he was that depressed, he wasn,t thinking clearly. Whatever it was he had, doctors if they knew the kind of job he had should surely have directly told his superiors. These privacy laws were not meant to jeopardize hundreds of lives, surely.
5
is it possible that he did not intentionally do this? Is it possible that he may have had some sort of diabetic coma or something like that?
1
Well, that seems inconsistent with having locked the cabin door and changed the plane's course to a descent that appears to have been calculated to crash as it entered the mountainous region of the Alps. So, no, I think the evidence points away from that kind of possibility.
1
To Murray Chen:
It's very doubtful that any medical condition incapacitated him, thus causing this aircraft to crash.
The evidence shows that Lubitz very deliberately changed the altitude on the autopilot from 38,000 to just 100 ft. A very deliberate and very deadly action, given that he was flying over the very mountainous Alps.
It's very doubtful that any medical condition incapacitated him, thus causing this aircraft to crash.
The evidence shows that Lubitz very deliberately changed the altitude on the autopilot from 38,000 to just 100 ft. A very deliberate and very deadly action, given that he was flying over the very mountainous Alps.
1
If he’d gone into a diabetic coma,he would not have locked the cabin door.The pilot would have been able to enter the cabin,taken control of the plane and the plane would not have crashed.
2
As a medical professional I have filled out state forms anonymously to report a patient not fit for driving a vehicle with the specific physical limitations in detail. Anyone can do this, but family is often very hesitant to do so or does not know how. This takes the pressure off the family and ensures that it is complete and timely. I have had MDs tell me that "they are only driving close to home". I can't get to the computer fast enough when I hear this.
5
My brother lost his drivers' license for a six month period after he had a seizure, and the notice of the restriction stayed in his state driving record for 15 years, which prevented him from getting jobs that required a driver's license for most of that time, well after his license was reinstated and he had no further incidents. I think that the duration of the impact was excessive but I don't think we ever thought the doctor was wrong to notify the DMV given the safety issues involved. It's just crazy to think that pilots (or anyone else holding a commercial license to operate a vehicle) don't face the same kinds of restrictions.
128
@Barbara, As a pilot myself, I know first hand we face way more restrictions then you would ever face with a auto drivers license. First of all, if you ever had a single epileptic seizure, you would never be able to get a pilot's license, or if you already had the license, it would be revoked permanently.
A close friend of mine flew for an Airline. At age 45, went in for his Medical and the Doctor asked him when he thought he had the heart attack. My friend didn't even realize he had one. He Pilots license and all it's ratings were revoked, and he was forced into early retirement.
A close friend of mine flew for an Airline. At age 45, went in for his Medical and the Doctor asked him when he thought he had the heart attack. My friend didn't even realize he had one. He Pilots license and all it's ratings were revoked, and he was forced into early retirement.
2
I suspect that if this pilot had a seizure history, he would not be flying.
I am sorry about your brother. My stepmother and her friend each lost their licenses due to their susceptibility to seizures. Even on medication, they each had accidents and that was correctly the final straw. Neither has driven for several years and perhaps never again. But that is a safety precaution for them and the public at large.
1
Separately from this murderer's heinous crime, there is the fact he had only approximately 600 hours flight experience, yet was entrusted alone at the helm of a passenger jet.
Does the flying public realize that the 'race to the bottom' is afflicting the airline industry' too?
Many, if not all, foreign carriers rely increasingly on a cadet system, wherein new hires are straight out of flight school with minimal hours and experience. Their salaries are proportionally low. Even the most highly rated carriers are transitioning to this system, whereas they may have previously prided themselves on only hiring the best, most experienced, pilots.
U.S. legacy carriers still typically require significant experience but this is fast changing and certainly not the case at the regionals. This becomes a vicious cycle. As salaries, hiring criteria, safety, and prestige are eroded, only less well qualified are attracted. But the corporations still profit handsomely.
Does the flying public realize that the 'race to the bottom' is afflicting the airline industry' too?
Many, if not all, foreign carriers rely increasingly on a cadet system, wherein new hires are straight out of flight school with minimal hours and experience. Their salaries are proportionally low. Even the most highly rated carriers are transitioning to this system, whereas they may have previously prided themselves on only hiring the best, most experienced, pilots.
U.S. legacy carriers still typically require significant experience but this is fast changing and certainly not the case at the regionals. This becomes a vicious cycle. As salaries, hiring criteria, safety, and prestige are eroded, only less well qualified are attracted. But the corporations still profit handsomely.
227
@citrus, he had 600 hours time in an A320, but over 6000 total flight time. 600 hours is a considerable amount of flight time in a single type rating. He does not become a co-pilot until he knows what he is doing. You can't just jump into the seat of an airliner and take off, like you would in a car you've never driven before. First of all, you have to go through "type rating" training for the particular aircraft your going to fly, no matter how many hours flight time you have racked up in the past. A pilot who has flown Boeing airliners all his life, still has to get a type rating to fly a small corporate jet.
Excellent comment! Anyone who travels by air or cares about someone who does should heed your comments. How many other professions are being impacted by current "1% Economics"? Thanks for posting.
1
How much does a pilot have to do once a modern plane has reached cruising altitude? Close to nothing, unless there is an emergency. Leaving a co-pilot in charge for a couple of minutes (a colleague that you have no reason to suspect) does not seem unconscionable. The 600 hours are irrelevant. 10,000 would not have made any difference.
I travel by airplane every week for work. Airline pilots must be subjected to annual physical and psychological tests to determine if they are fit to fly airplanes without jeopardizing public safety. Public safety trumps over privacy in this case when hundreds of lives are at stake.
72
Of course public safety trumps privacy. That does not mean that privacy laws should be gutted. There are ways to narrowly tailor the exposure of information to the public safety objective -- without unduly sacrificing privacy..
Only and annual checkup?? The plane is checked in detail before every flight. The pilots should have blood tests, reasoning tests and reaction time tests before every flight. Most people, including pilots, think antidepressant drugs are safe and needed for treatment. Research (Whitaker, 2012) shows that these drugs may relieve problems in the short run, but will make depression return for 7 of 8 who take them compared to 1 in 8 who have psychotherapy and no drugs.
I think you'll find that they already are. Psychometric tests are very easy; laughable easy; for a person of high intelligence to circumvent with little reading and a little practise. The fatal flaw is the assumption that the person taking the test answers truthfully.
I studied aerospace/aviation and have been in the industry for 36 yrs. The problem here is the system and this incident is a huge wake-up call which has been waiting to happen. First and foremost in my opinion no privately schooled/trained pilot, no matter how many hours logged can ever be a commercial airline pilot...to me it's military trained only Chesley Sullenberger is a model example. Years back domestic flights had 3 in the cockpit and international 4; Pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer and navigator. It was a fail-safe system, but computers and cutting cost causes many problems. Lubitz should have never occupied this job in the first place...at best he could have been flying for the postal service or freight carriers like FedEx. As far as regular screening, that needs to be revamped big time. One of the biggest issue globally USA included is alcoholism. The age old rule of thumb is 8 hours from bottle-to-throttle and that's no longer good enough. The finding with Lubitz should have been diagnosed through company and or Europe's FAA equivalent physician who can ground a pilot based on findings and not a private physician. At the end of the day the USA's system and other countries (Malaysian air) need to regroup and have a global committee to fix these problems together. There are over a million of daily flights globally so we're all on these flights and effected so we need to work through these issues together.
14
The problem with ex-military anything is PTSD.
1
I disagree that only military pilots should be eligible for ATP certificates. There are many fine non-military pilots with ATPs in the US and elsewhere. While US military flight training is the gold standard, many US trained civilian pilots have much better training than military pilots in other countries. Graduates of top notch four year degree aviation programs are well trained and even the FAA allows them to get an ATP with only 250 more hours as PIC. Others require twice as many hours as a military trained pilot. Your argument that navigators are needed when navigation by GPS as well as DMEs/VORs which are more accurate is nothing more than a nostalgic call to return to Lockheed Constellations propeller engine planes in an era of fly-by-wire, composite Boeing 787s jets.
No doubt more than a few people are incensed that Lubitz cannot be punished.
1
Authorities have his medical records and know who his doctors are, so I don't understand why we still don't know the exact illness he was suffering from. The investigators know, and they should give the full details to grieving public already.
3
I suspect that his vision problems were symptomatic of his inability to see anything outside of himself. Sadly, he was not an anomaly.
2
My coworker said a terrible comment to me the other day about this tragic event: "once someone has a mental illness or depression there is no knowing what they will do next". I turned to him and disagreed and said that you never know what anyone will do, even those you might consider heathy, he was determined to argue his point. These types of reports sometimes create a stereotype and stigma, I hope the New York Times reports on the issue with great responsibility and care.
18
I agree with your friend. I have worked in the field.
1
Thank you for posting your comment. I believe that these reports are indeed heightening the stigma and stereotypes regarding mental illness,and have been concerned about exactly what you have cited. I would not say that the New York Times is reporting on the issue with great responsibility and care. The Times has not counterbalanced the coverage of this story with the facts in regards to mental illness and violence.which are that,statistically,those who suffer from mental illness are far LESS likely to harm another individual than those who are not labelled as being mentally ill.
Unfortunately,all it takes is one high profile case like this to set back whatever progress has been made,if any has been made,towards de-stigmatizing mental illness,and that is happening,as evidenced by your co-worker’s terrible comment.
I would have suggested that based on his beliefs,he move as far as he can into the woods given that there are millions of people in this country who have been diagnosed with depression alone,and as he said’ Once someone suffers from a mental illness depression,there is no way of knowing what he will do next.”He should avoid being treated by any physicians ,dentists,etc, plenty of whom suffer from depression and other mental illness,etc,and generally have objects that can be used as deadly weapons,such as syringes, drills, etc. handy. He should avoid surgery at all costs.
Of course,he might be eaten by a depressed bear, or one who is just hungry.
Unfortunately,all it takes is one high profile case like this to set back whatever progress has been made,if any has been made,towards de-stigmatizing mental illness,and that is happening,as evidenced by your co-worker’s terrible comment.
I would have suggested that based on his beliefs,he move as far as he can into the woods given that there are millions of people in this country who have been diagnosed with depression alone,and as he said’ Once someone suffers from a mental illness depression,there is no way of knowing what he will do next.”He should avoid being treated by any physicians ,dentists,etc, plenty of whom suffer from depression and other mental illness,etc,and generally have objects that can be used as deadly weapons,such as syringes, drills, etc. handy. He should avoid surgery at all costs.
Of course,he might be eaten by a depressed bear, or one who is just hungry.
1
And I agree with New Yorker: You never know what anyone will do.
By the way, people who have worked in a clinical environment often suffer from very biased experiences, because they mostly have to to with the hard cases.
By the way, people who have worked in a clinical environment often suffer from very biased experiences, because they mostly have to to with the hard cases.
1
The note referred to, found in the trash, sounds like the kind of note someone gets when they have to be cleared, BY THE EMPLOYER, to go back to work after an absence for a medical reason. What was this guy doing before the fateful flight, for days, months? Did the airline really not know he was sick? Seems implausible, at best.
3
It also could have been the kind of note that a patient requests so that he can take some time off to deal with an issue. Maybe Mr. Lubitz asked for such a note, then changed his mind and decided to go to work anyway.
2
Thoughtful people everywhere are recoiling in horror at the nightmare of this deliberate action by the co-pilot. We may never know the complete workings of his deranged mind but if he was indeed seen by doctors, we need to re-examine the privacy laws which so carefully protect the patient but not innocent potential victims
Mandated medical reports on workers in any field that directly affects the lives of those under their watch may be part of a public safety responsibility on the part of the medical profession as well as the employers. It may be that our right to privacy laws have actually handicapped the medical profession and put the lives of others in jeopardy. Time to re-think!
Mandated medical reports on workers in any field that directly affects the lives of those under their watch may be part of a public safety responsibility on the part of the medical profession as well as the employers. It may be that our right to privacy laws have actually handicapped the medical profession and put the lives of others in jeopardy. Time to re-think!
3
Quick question for reactionary folks who believe we should tighten pilot medical qualifications to prevent something like this from happening again. Why not take it a step further and do the same for all drivers? With over 30,000 highway fatalities per year and many more severe injuries, think of how many might have been prevented by not allowing anyone with a "risk" factor to drive. Same goes for medical professionals. If we are truly concerned about saving lives, why not begin where there is the most risk? Which is highways and hospitals. I think the more interesting psychological story here is how so many commenters seem to believe this is some sort of harbinger and we need to rush to action. When the much bigger threat (according to data) is in highways and hospitals.
19
You forgot to mention guns.
On the issue with cars, the oil companies would never go for that ... fewer cars on he road equals fewer gallons of gas sold ...
Apart from today’s already traditional extreme tolerance with behavior (something our educators teached, and the law forced us to observe), which makes people call “normal” what in fact isn’t normal for an equilibrated, mature human being, a somewhat hidden consequence of Modern Education is that many people never really grow up mentally, so that a 27-year-old man, in most cases is just a boy, with a mental age of, say, 15, perhaps less. Now how about permitting such a boy piloting an airplane?
So, the blindness for this evident problem of our mad society is another way in which this crime on humanity called Modern Education made this disaster possible.
So, the blindness for this evident problem of our mad society is another way in which this crime on humanity called Modern Education made this disaster possible.
6
A former sweetheart says AL had sweet loving personality marred by volatility and flashes of rage. He had a beef with Lufthansa & perhaps in a larger context with society & its demands. But if he had just had a death wish, this expert glider who knew the Alps where he chose to self-destruct could easily have just ended his own life in a simple gliding accident. Instead, he chose to cruelly smash to bits the bodies of 149 other human beings, most of whom he did not know at all. He committed this atrocity knowing that it would deal a vicious blow also to his own parents and brother, to the young woman he had hoped to marry (who had left him for all the right reasons, as his own criminal act must have in his final moment of lucidity confirmed even to him), to her family & to teams of rescuers & investigators forced by his malice to spend weeks scouring steep cliffs for bits of putrefying human tissue... This was a terrorist committing an act of terror, every bit as resolute in his extreme cruelty, self-justification and self-promotion as the most hidebound ideologues of Hamas, or Al-Qaeda, or Dash/ISIL. His wickedness is as great as that of the 9/11 or 7-7 bombers. He attacked his own countrymen, his employers, his family. What needs to happen next, in all schools, especially in the EU, English-speaking & also Muslim countries, is a sharp, strong conversation with teens about Extreme Cruelty, its unacceptability, its unforgivable & inexcusable nature.
13
Excellent. Thank you.
1
The comments here are basically calling for a police state for pilots, and anybody who *might* be a pilot (that means you!). Airline pilots already have to undergo a medical inspection every 12 months (6 months if over 40) that's supposed to screen for stuff like this. They're supposed to self-report any issues including psychological issues (or face stiff penalties) and take themselves off a flight if they can't do it safely. If self-reporting isn't enough for us, the alternative is for every doctor in the world to require ID to check against databases of pilots so they can report visits.
That's assuming they even go. Pilots are *already* afraid to jeopardize their entire career by going to a doctor for *anything*. Especially for mental issues, there is a huge risk. Imagine you are working your way up through the ranks of your own career field, the only one you've ever known, for 30 years. Now you have problems with your marriage, or a hard time dealing with a parent's death or something. You have enough sense to realize that you should probably get some counseling or therapy to work through it. But you know that if you do, you risk being out on the street starting from scratch with a new career at 50. Would you get the help you need? Of course not! You'd try to ride it out on your own.
And you folks want to make that *even worse*?? I want my pilot to go to the doctor frequently and without reservation. Raising the stakes even further will just make this even less likely.
That's assuming they even go. Pilots are *already* afraid to jeopardize their entire career by going to a doctor for *anything*. Especially for mental issues, there is a huge risk. Imagine you are working your way up through the ranks of your own career field, the only one you've ever known, for 30 years. Now you have problems with your marriage, or a hard time dealing with a parent's death or something. You have enough sense to realize that you should probably get some counseling or therapy to work through it. But you know that if you do, you risk being out on the street starting from scratch with a new career at 50. Would you get the help you need? Of course not! You'd try to ride it out on your own.
And you folks want to make that *even worse*?? I want my pilot to go to the doctor frequently and without reservation. Raising the stakes even further will just make this even less likely.
199
Worse for some pilots? Maybe.
Better for the flying public? Definitely.
Better for the flying public? Definitely.
2
re: Robert from New York
You fear a "police state" for pilots as your excuse for not holding pilots to a higher standard than an office worker drone?
Do you have any idea that a pilot is responsible for the lives of his passengers and crew and is a real risk to those souls when distracted by mental illness?
Not exactly a job you want to burden with more stress, would you say?
Think about that the next time you or you loved ones step into an airplane.
Because, political correctness never gets you to your destination safely.
Instead, it is a sound piece of machinery, both mechanical and human, which does that feat.
You fear a "police state" for pilots as your excuse for not holding pilots to a higher standard than an office worker drone?
Do you have any idea that a pilot is responsible for the lives of his passengers and crew and is a real risk to those souls when distracted by mental illness?
Not exactly a job you want to burden with more stress, would you say?
Think about that the next time you or you loved ones step into an airplane.
Because, political correctness never gets you to your destination safely.
Instead, it is a sound piece of machinery, both mechanical and human, which does that feat.
Self reporting? The kind that those in the financial industry used when they
were selling mortgage-backed securities,or any other scam?The kind that Michael Milken used,or the kind the Bernie Madoff employed? The kind that doctors are using when they are committing Medicare Fraud? The kind that pharmaceutical companies do when they keep medications on the market which they know cause death and other serious" adverse events”?The kind that car manufacturers use when they discover that the cars they are selling contain shrapnel exploding airbags or faulty ignition switches? Or the kind that Secretaries of State use when they set up illegal private e-mail accounts ,the kind that State Attorney Generals and other government officials use when they are patronizing call girls using government funds?
The penalties for committing Medicare Fraud are $10,000 for each false claim filed, and triple damages, & can include prison time,yet a substantial percentage of the doctors I see are filing fraudulent Medicare claims.
I can’t imagine that the penalty to a pilot who lies about a medical condition
could be stiffer than a potential prison sentence.
What is it about pilots that makes you believe they are more likely to police
themselves than physicians,Attorneys General,Judges, Attorneys,Pharmaceutical companies or any others?
were selling mortgage-backed securities,or any other scam?The kind that Michael Milken used,or the kind the Bernie Madoff employed? The kind that doctors are using when they are committing Medicare Fraud? The kind that pharmaceutical companies do when they keep medications on the market which they know cause death and other serious" adverse events”?The kind that car manufacturers use when they discover that the cars they are selling contain shrapnel exploding airbags or faulty ignition switches? Or the kind that Secretaries of State use when they set up illegal private e-mail accounts ,the kind that State Attorney Generals and other government officials use when they are patronizing call girls using government funds?
The penalties for committing Medicare Fraud are $10,000 for each false claim filed, and triple damages, & can include prison time,yet a substantial percentage of the doctors I see are filing fraudulent Medicare claims.
I can’t imagine that the penalty to a pilot who lies about a medical condition
could be stiffer than a potential prison sentence.
What is it about pilots that makes you believe they are more likely to police
themselves than physicians,Attorneys General,Judges, Attorneys,Pharmaceutical companies or any others?
What about the possibility that the man was not dangerous because he had eye problems which is ludicrous, or because he was depressed there are millions of depressed people in this world who are doing absolutely fine jobs at whatever they are doing as we speak. He deliberately and in a premeditated act crashed an airplane full of passengers into a mountain. This is a matter of will not eyes or mood. Maybe it was because he was a self absorbed murderous fool? A totally selfish person who thought that only his life and his petty problems mattered, mattered so much to him that the lives of 150 totally innocent people in his charge did not matter? This is in a way a perfect example of evil. I know it is neither popular nor politically correct to talk about good and evil but that was what this guy perpetuated and that was what he became.
20
Why would medical privacy still be in effect? The guy is dead. The medical people are just dodging accusations of responsibility, probably on advice of their lawyers.
11
Because it is. That is the current law in Germany. Of course this very situation has started national debate about those laws, if you read the German newspapers right now. I'm pretty sure there will be changes to those laws very soon.
1
It’s easy (and tempting) to look at this tragedy as an isolated incident. It is, perhaps, just one instance that is similar to many instances of deadly antisocial behavior by individuals , be they terrorists, gun wielding mass murders, or now, airline pilots.
We would all like to think that these deadly tendencies are recognizable and predictable. That would reassure us that we could be safe and secure in our daily lives, whether we were in an airplane, a movie theatre, or sending our children off to school.
It’s also natural to look at the individual and place the blame on mental illness. With the proliferation of mass murder scenarios, perhaps there is a contributing factor from our society. The perpetrators seem to often be men under thirty. They seem to have certain ideals that are never able to be met by reality. Their access to lethal weapons allows them to do maximum damage to society as they choose to end their own lives.
The real answers are much more complicated than putting a flight attendant in the cockpit when the captain takes a break. We need to look at how we contribute to the problem as a society before we will find out how to solve the problem. A person intent on taking lives with his own can easily find a way. We need to find out ways to prevent those emotions from becoming as strong and as frequent as they seem to have become.
We would all like to think that these deadly tendencies are recognizable and predictable. That would reassure us that we could be safe and secure in our daily lives, whether we were in an airplane, a movie theatre, or sending our children off to school.
It’s also natural to look at the individual and place the blame on mental illness. With the proliferation of mass murder scenarios, perhaps there is a contributing factor from our society. The perpetrators seem to often be men under thirty. They seem to have certain ideals that are never able to be met by reality. Their access to lethal weapons allows them to do maximum damage to society as they choose to end their own lives.
The real answers are much more complicated than putting a flight attendant in the cockpit when the captain takes a break. We need to look at how we contribute to the problem as a society before we will find out how to solve the problem. A person intent on taking lives with his own can easily find a way. We need to find out ways to prevent those emotions from becoming as strong and as frequent as they seem to have become.
3
Human beings are not infallible. Lubitz hid the signs and it was too late for anyone to know what was truly going through his mind. There is no possible preemptive action to stop this kind of event from occurring. Some humans are just that selfish and that nihilistic which are then expressed in this most horrible ways like this particular tragedy. It has happened before and it will most likely happen again even with the most strict controls in place. And no, artificial intelligence/computerized systems are not the solution. Who designs and implements those systems? Humans, of course.
2
Many times we look for a single answer for the inexplicable. There's no possibility that any one cause can be pointed to in this case. There a good probability that this man didn't exhibit alarming behavior in front of a physician, co-workers, friends, or family. Mental illness is no excuse but neither is it always visible to people around an individual. No matter the reason, this kind of action is always insane.
3
Two thoughts: (1) This incident is a forseeable consequence of cockpit reinforcement measures taken after 9/11, in particular, the extreme step of completely prohibiting access to the flight desk even when using the secret access code. (2) This incident makes it easier to accept the probability that MH370 was due to a similar cause.
5
Fortunately for us all, these sorts of events--pilot suicide at the controls of a commercial aircraft--are extremely rare, i.e., you have better chance of winning the Lotto or being hit by driver on his cellphone. We must remember that though we might try, we cannot legislate or regulate an absolute risk-free life--even from butter knives and fountain pens.
Let's also not forget that when we board any large commercial aircraft, we are all getting into an aluminum/composite tube with wings made of same that is filled with hundreds of gallons of JP-5, a flash fuel, then lit on fire, and sent into the sky, hopefully arriving safely at its intended destination.
Search as we might and pick through the debris like Tiresias searching for the future, some things just happen without an easy explanation, and remain so. We have to accept such with humans--they are not machines. What we have now is speculation without end. Will we find the piece that makes it all fit? Doubt it.
We have a better chance of finding Hillary's deleted emails than figuring out why the young man did what he seemed to have done. So perhaps it is simply time to accept the reality and move on and be thankful we have so many diligent, responsible, and resourceful pilots in the cockpits who--supported by many thousands of hard-working humans--make thousands of take-offs and landings each day, carrying millions from where they are to where they want to go. We are fortunate to have such freedom.
Let's also not forget that when we board any large commercial aircraft, we are all getting into an aluminum/composite tube with wings made of same that is filled with hundreds of gallons of JP-5, a flash fuel, then lit on fire, and sent into the sky, hopefully arriving safely at its intended destination.
Search as we might and pick through the debris like Tiresias searching for the future, some things just happen without an easy explanation, and remain so. We have to accept such with humans--they are not machines. What we have now is speculation without end. Will we find the piece that makes it all fit? Doubt it.
We have a better chance of finding Hillary's deleted emails than figuring out why the young man did what he seemed to have done. So perhaps it is simply time to accept the reality and move on and be thankful we have so many diligent, responsible, and resourceful pilots in the cockpits who--supported by many thousands of hard-working humans--make thousands of take-offs and landings each day, carrying millions from where they are to where they want to go. We are fortunate to have such freedom.
154
"We must remember that though we might try, we cannot legislate or regulate an absolute risk-free life..."
"Search as we might and pick through the debris like Tiresias searching for the future, some things just happen without an easy explanation, and remain so."
WRONG! There is an investigation underway. Hundreds of people will gather information from the pilot's home (computer, desk, filing cabinet, torn up medical notes in the garbage bin, etc. etc.) interviews with his coworkers, girlfriend, family, doctors; an examination of his training records. At the end of the forensic examination there will be a detailed picture of this pilot and what motivated his behavior. We most certainly do not have to "accept this reality" we have to understand it and then LEARN from it. Then CAREFULLY consider what changes if any might be implemented. "Freedom"? Please, your comments reflect a thorough lack of understanding of what goes on in the real world of aviation. I'm surprised you didn't offer up the common right-wing cliche' about dismantling necessary aspects of the federal government such as the FAA and NTSB. Go back to watching Faux News and leave the running of the real world to those who actually know something about something.
"Search as we might and pick through the debris like Tiresias searching for the future, some things just happen without an easy explanation, and remain so."
WRONG! There is an investigation underway. Hundreds of people will gather information from the pilot's home (computer, desk, filing cabinet, torn up medical notes in the garbage bin, etc. etc.) interviews with his coworkers, girlfriend, family, doctors; an examination of his training records. At the end of the forensic examination there will be a detailed picture of this pilot and what motivated his behavior. We most certainly do not have to "accept this reality" we have to understand it and then LEARN from it. Then CAREFULLY consider what changes if any might be implemented. "Freedom"? Please, your comments reflect a thorough lack of understanding of what goes on in the real world of aviation. I'm surprised you didn't offer up the common right-wing cliche' about dismantling necessary aspects of the federal government such as the FAA and NTSB. Go back to watching Faux News and leave the running of the real world to those who actually know something about something.
I agree that we should be thankful that there are thousands of hard working humans. But if a person has trouble with his eyes and his mind is not working properly, he should not even drive a car, let alone an airplane with 150 passengers.
Something is very very, very wrong, shamefully wrong.
Something is very very, very wrong, shamefully wrong.
Finding Hillary's deleted email?
Shame on you!
The families of the 155 souls who died from that plane crash might not appreciate your trivializing their deaths and your callous call to sweep this tragedy under the rug because you think this incident is statistically insignificant.
Shame on you!
The families of the 155 souls who died from that plane crash might not appreciate your trivializing their deaths and your callous call to sweep this tragedy under the rug because you think this incident is statistically insignificant.
1
Enough already. We lead the world in our experience with 20-something psychosomatic mass-murderers. What lessons have we learnt? More metal detectors, high-tech emergency alerts, settling lawsuits, slicker press conferences. A week later, shrug shoulders and move on. Ha!
I for one don't need to know more about Lubitz's deranged mind.
I for one don't need to know more about Lubitz's deranged mind.
3
Who “leads the world”?
1
Lubitz, the mass murderer, crashed more than airplane. Because up until now proud German entities like Lufthansa have always been known above all for their matchless competence and efficiency.
11
From the experience of working as a clinical psychologist and having testified on many occasions as an expert witness until retirement, I must say there is absolutely no way that all these pundit's speculation on the status of Lubitz can be substantiated. The only way one can know the origin of such a tragedy is from the expression of the person involved. Unfortunately, even when the person is alive, the science of prediction of a mental state is so poor or unreliable, that it should never be allowed to presume someones condition. There are multiple explanations, including the possibility of a loss of consciousness from a sudden cerebral insult, sudden loss of cabin pressure in the cockpit, etc. "Depression" or "mental illness" are always good, albeit unprovable, scapegoats. Punditry, opinionators--- professional and non-professionals, always seems to seek the most convenient explanation for unknown facts.
10
Well I am sure there would are sensible ways to prevent a person from operating a plane, train or any other function that could jeopardize public safety without infringing on privacy matters....
Most management positions these days requires signing of non-disclosures and confidentiality agreements, so if a doctor notifies a potential risk to the Human Resources department of an airline for example, the pilot could be silently grounded without co-workers or the public needing to know why....
Most management positions these days requires signing of non-disclosures and confidentiality agreements, so if a doctor notifies a potential risk to the Human Resources department of an airline for example, the pilot could be silently grounded without co-workers or the public needing to know why....
42
I agree. Annual physical check ups and mental health evaluations
by airline assigned physicians and the results
reported exclusively to the airline Human Resource Department should be required. Then, the individual applying for the position is aware of the health requirements necessary to be hired. It's no different from a security clearance performed by many companies to qualify an individual for employment for a particular position. From personal experience I know this is done by some U.S. corporations for management positions. However, having physicians report to corporations will only lead people experiencing psychiatric problems not seek help early on. Let's not forget the stigma attached to having mental health issues. Although many people can return to work with some of the excellent medications available today, some still live with secrecy and great pain to hide their problem. Once diagnosed, their life can fall apart. Society still doesn't do enough for them and many are left alone to take care of themselves at a time when they are not fit to do so. This is when the love and support of the family and friends is crucial.
Finally , let's not forget, he was sane enough to know when to lock the cockpit door and made sure it stayed locked. If he was suicidal, then why did he choose to take so many people with him? This, sadly, we may never know.
by airline assigned physicians and the results
reported exclusively to the airline Human Resource Department should be required. Then, the individual applying for the position is aware of the health requirements necessary to be hired. It's no different from a security clearance performed by many companies to qualify an individual for employment for a particular position. From personal experience I know this is done by some U.S. corporations for management positions. However, having physicians report to corporations will only lead people experiencing psychiatric problems not seek help early on. Let's not forget the stigma attached to having mental health issues. Although many people can return to work with some of the excellent medications available today, some still live with secrecy and great pain to hide their problem. Once diagnosed, their life can fall apart. Society still doesn't do enough for them and many are left alone to take care of themselves at a time when they are not fit to do so. This is when the love and support of the family and friends is crucial.
Finally , let's not forget, he was sane enough to know when to lock the cockpit door and made sure it stayed locked. If he was suicidal, then why did he choose to take so many people with him? This, sadly, we may never know.
1
"Lie to fly" is obviously unconscionable, and yet it has been ignored for many years. In public safety issues such as this, any pilot caught doing this should, of course, be automatically fired. To prevent it, the physician needs to report the issuance of a not fit to fly note to that pilot's airline immediately and in front of the pilot, so there is no question about it. MD Cooks suggestion to report it to HR is a good one.It should be the international norm.
Now that Mr. Lubitz has murdered 149 people, it seems to me that the only entity benefitting from not releasing his medical records is the airline company, Luftansa, fearing law suits against the company. Surviving family members of the passengers, and the general public have a right to know what Mr. Lubitz's health issues were, so that precautions may be taken to prevent another similar incident.
131
What makes you think this information won't come out?
Exactly.In all these kind of cases it is all about the coverup.
1
CYA basics...
Perhaps his vision problems were a type of Complex Visual Hallucination that might accompany mental illness.
5
Whether he was depressed, had visual problems, or whatever, Lubitz had a significant personality disorder. Period.
5
This circus just gets curiouser and curiouser...death threats to the flight school of all places....it's amazing how an act of criminal lunacy, once it's fanned to blowtorch intensity by the media, taps into the deepest fears and insecurities of yet more unstable people. I mean, just picture a person sitting in front of their tv or computer, actually summoning enough rage over this to send a death threat to an utterly innocent, far away stranger they'll never meet. It beggars the imagination.
26
I definitely would not want many of the commenters on some media outlets piloting my plane.
5
Privacy should not be a barrier in preventing a pilot, bus driver or surgeon who suffers a severe mental disorder that impairs judgement. The Tarasoff decisions require psychiatrists to protect the public.
9
1. Not just psychiatrists
2. No Tarasoff in Germany. I am amazed at the number of people who are oblivious to the fact that Germany is a different country with different laws
3. I would be willing to wager a substantial sum that the copilot did not reveal his plan to crash a plane to anyone, so "Tarasoff " is likely not a factor anyway
2. No Tarasoff in Germany. I am amazed at the number of people who are oblivious to the fact that Germany is a different country with different laws
3. I would be willing to wager a substantial sum that the copilot did not reveal his plan to crash a plane to anyone, so "Tarasoff " is likely not a factor anyway
1
Regardless of his purported health issues, the airlines need to have at least 2 officers in the cabin at all times-ideally back to 3 officers. In addition, it is unfathomable to me that no one can can access the flight cabin from the outside, in this instance in an emergency.
6
The decision to make the cabin impregnable was a result of 9/11 when people declared it unfathomable that terrorists be able to get access to the cockpit. The reality is that you cannot plan for every possible eventuality.
1
While the most plausible cause of this tragedy appears to be a suicide, the investigation shall remain solely under the authority of the BEA (the French NTSB). Many stupid comments from diverses medias and even official authorities are polluting the investigation and rendered problematic the rendering of the analysis.
For example, i am still baffled by the statement of the French prosecutor "the co pilot was breathing normally".
Well, i have been a pilot for 30 years and i have never seen a microphone able to pick "normal breathing". In fact, headset has programed to function at a certain level of decibels in order to cancel low frequency sounds. If an typical headset was able to pick up "normal breathing", it will be extremely annoying for both pilots to hear permantly each other breathing.
This mentioned example is the one of the stupid comments read in the medias.
For example, i am still baffled by the statement of the French prosecutor "the co pilot was breathing normally".
Well, i have been a pilot for 30 years and i have never seen a microphone able to pick "normal breathing". In fact, headset has programed to function at a certain level of decibels in order to cancel low frequency sounds. If an typical headset was able to pick up "normal breathing", it will be extremely annoying for both pilots to hear permantly each other breathing.
This mentioned example is the one of the stupid comments read in the medias.
14
I agree wholeheartedly.
I have also not seen mentioned yet the possibility that Mr. Lubitz had an "absence" or "focal motor" seizure. People can have such seizures recurrently for years, and never be diagnosed, or properly diagnosed, because the symptoms are extremely mild, generally involving "spacing out" for periods of time, often while still performing routine tasks, such as chopping vegetables, walking, or driving a car, and can often involve organized "stereotyped responses," such as turning knobs and switches (my wife was diagnosed with focal motor seizures after several instances in which she suddenly realized she was fifty miles past her exit on the highway during long drives on familiar roads - her brain had continued to properly process the information needed to drive, but she had been completely unaware of her surroundings).
If Mr. Lubitz had had a focal seizure, it would explain his ignoring bells, buzzers, banging and screaming, would explain his steady breathing right to the end (unaware of the impending crash, he would not have become excited), and could explain his having manipulated controls in the cockpit, without having necessarily known what he was doing.
I think that the rush to judgement regarding intentional suicide is highly inappropriate, and very unprofessional on the part of the media, in the absence of any real evidence.
I have also not seen mentioned yet the possibility that Mr. Lubitz had an "absence" or "focal motor" seizure. People can have such seizures recurrently for years, and never be diagnosed, or properly diagnosed, because the symptoms are extremely mild, generally involving "spacing out" for periods of time, often while still performing routine tasks, such as chopping vegetables, walking, or driving a car, and can often involve organized "stereotyped responses," such as turning knobs and switches (my wife was diagnosed with focal motor seizures after several instances in which she suddenly realized she was fifty miles past her exit on the highway during long drives on familiar roads - her brain had continued to properly process the information needed to drive, but she had been completely unaware of her surroundings).
If Mr. Lubitz had had a focal seizure, it would explain his ignoring bells, buzzers, banging and screaming, would explain his steady breathing right to the end (unaware of the impending crash, he would not have become excited), and could explain his having manipulated controls in the cockpit, without having necessarily known what he was doing.
I think that the rush to judgement regarding intentional suicide is highly inappropriate, and very unprofessional on the part of the media, in the absence of any real evidence.
4
This is a theory that makes the most sense.
I don't know about you but I prefer full price air carriers with older seasoned pilots and co-pilots. Nothing like years flying in the big leagues to weed out unstable pilots.
24
It is beginning to look as if this man had his entire identity vested in being a pilot; it wasn't a job he was anticipating losing, perhaps, but essentially, himself. I hope that there is some psychiatric background that might explain how he could sacrifice so many other lives rather than simply ending his own, if he was that desperate. I also keep thinking about the reports that his breathing was "regular;" - might it be possible that he took something which allowed this apparent calmness? How would one otherwise remain unmoved, in those last minutes?
7
There is too much speculation running rampant. Unfortunately, the facts of this tragedy will probably never be fully known. If the co-pilot were mentally or physically ill, he deserves our compassion as much as do the 149 victims. At the present time, many of the details of this scenario remain fuzzy to those who use critical thinking.
116
No he doesn't. That compassion ended when he decided to solve his problems by taking the lives of 149 others, including a group of HS students who had their lives cut horribly short.
3
Really? "If the co-pilot were mentally or physically ill he deserves our compassion as much as do the 149 victims"???? Why is that? I am an attorney and can think quite critically and I am pleased to be able to use my faculties to discern the moral difference between a mass killer and his victims. Advocates for the mentally ill in the workplace cannot on the one hand say that there should be no stigma to mental illness and that the mentally ill are no more likely than the non-mentally ill to commit acts of violence and on the other hand claim in cases such as this that they should be held to a lower standard of responsibility due to their illness.
5
The difference between the co pilot and the passengers in this tragedy is that he had a choice and they didnt. The only compassion I can presently muster is certainly not for him.
4
The Times' report about eye problems is from anonymous sources, presumably to protect medical privacy. Although there are many complaints about the medical privacy in this case, pilots' medical records deserve privacy just as anyone else. The FAA has a process to evaluate psychiatric illness and its treatment and progress among pilots. Stories so far have not related the details of a comparable process in other countries.
21
People place too much stock in psychiatric evaluation. Current testing is not good enough to uncover this sort of psychosis.
9
Yes, not good enough. Better to say that predicting this behavior is not possible. Assessment is based on observed and reported functioning of an individual, their responses and responses from others. If hidden, there's not a way to access an evil intention.
1
All prescriptions should be reported. All pilots should be tested for drugs of all kinds, including psychiatric drugs before they are cleared for flights. Some may be tempted to use stimulants, ADHD drugs, from the black market in order to stay awake, and these drugs may make people suicidal and lose their normal judgement of risk and morality just like antidepressants. There are extensive checks of all the mechanical systems of the planes. The least we should demand is a thorough blood screening of the pilots.
We know the human brain is not fully formed until at least the age of 25-30 and many mental illnesses do not surface until that same age range. Perhaps the broader question that should be posed is whether anyone of that age should have control of a commercial airliner even for a minute, no matter how technically proficient they are.
17
I agree with you that those under 30 ought to not pilot a commercial plane, just because.
However: "we" do not know when the human brain is fully formed.
If you are a scientist you may able to say that you have some evidence that indicates that maybe the human brain is not fully formed until the later years in life, say 25.
However: "we" do not know when the human brain is fully formed.
If you are a scientist you may able to say that you have some evidence that indicates that maybe the human brain is not fully formed until the later years in life, say 25.
1
And what exactly do you mean by "fully formed". Doesn't the brain retain a certain degree of plasticity throughout life? Regardless, are you a developmental neuroscientist? Are you a psychiatrist or a neurologist? Do you have any sort of expertise that would enable you to make such a comment?
1
That's a good point, Joanne. There was a spot on CNN about a co-pilot somewhere, probably Asia, who is only 27, who's talked about as being some kind of aviation prodigy, that good he is said to be. There are exceptions to every rule, so the case of Lubitz should be the exception. Obviously their system of evaluation is very limited or flawed. But in any case, in most cases I think 27 is too young for many things in life, perhaps starting with fatherhood!
For those who are caterwauling about Lubitz' privacy and medical records: stop it.
Of course privacy is hugely important, and must be protected by law. But there are roles and situations in which the rights of the victims, or potential victims trump an individual's privacy right.
If you opt to perform professionally in an role which regularly places in your hands and judgement the well-being and the lives of others, and there is legitimate evidence that you are derelict, then you have relinquished your expectation to privacy. Period.
And when your actions have resulted in the death of 150 people, the expectation of privacy is absurd.
Of course privacy is hugely important, and must be protected by law. But there are roles and situations in which the rights of the victims, or potential victims trump an individual's privacy right.
If you opt to perform professionally in an role which regularly places in your hands and judgement the well-being and the lives of others, and there is legitimate evidence that you are derelict, then you have relinquished your expectation to privacy. Period.
And when your actions have resulted in the death of 150 people, the expectation of privacy is absurd.
351
Exactly. We all, and rightly so, respect a person's right to
privacy with respect to his or her health conditions.
Nevertheless, when a pilot has responsibility for many lives that concern should go out the window. If a
physician sees a pilot is not healthy enough to fly, that
word should go immediately to his employer - no exceptions. It is argued that then pilots would not see
a physician - then airline should up their own medical exams of pilots, so pilots would have no choice. It is argued that many can fly with depression, but there is depression of all kinds - this pilot's depression would seem to be associated with some grandiosity which would add to the dangers.
privacy with respect to his or her health conditions.
Nevertheless, when a pilot has responsibility for many lives that concern should go out the window. If a
physician sees a pilot is not healthy enough to fly, that
word should go immediately to his employer - no exceptions. It is argued that then pilots would not see
a physician - then airline should up their own medical exams of pilots, so pilots would have no choice. It is argued that many can fly with depression, but there is depression of all kinds - this pilot's depression would seem to be associated with some grandiosity which would add to the dangers.
3
Until the crash, what evidence was there the pilot was 'derelict'? He had, responsibly, sought treatment, as millions of people do. And in the absence of catastrophe, what 'urgency' to know would outweigh the patient's right to privacy? That everybody lived? That everybody continues to live? Prurient interest does not give society the right to know what the doctor knows on any blessed day when the chances are even we'll all come out of this alive....or turn over your own doctor's records, Pam.
I'm not sure what you mean by "caterwauling," but the harsh reality is that there are unintended consequences to all policies - like, for example, reinforcing cockpit doors based on the assumption that the pilot isn't going to be the threat. In the case of privacy, we know that when privacy is relinquished, people do not just choose either to reveal information that will affect their careers or to withdraw from their career. Many just avoid treatment. So that's not so helpful, caterwauling or no. The expectation of privacy may be absurd, but certainly no more absurd than the assumption that eliminating it will solve this problem.
1
This is a rare event that cannot be screened. As another commenter has iterated: a suicidal pilot is not something you can screen via a system. It's a situation you may be able to detect by luck or not.
Poor vision can be corrected. Mental health is complicated to diagnose, and often with expert disagreement.
All that most of the suggestions to prevent this type of event will result in is increased bureaucracy (human resources entanglement), flight costs and job costs.
Poor vision can be corrected. Mental health is complicated to diagnose, and often with expert disagreement.
All that most of the suggestions to prevent this type of event will result in is increased bureaucracy (human resources entanglement), flight costs and job costs.
5
What an incredibly selfish person Lubitz was.
10
What I wonder is how many pilots have a similar frame of mind as Lubutz did and now might be emboldened to carry out their dark ideas. It seems to me that once something like this happens (school shootings for example), more follow.
6
There have been several other instances of pilots doing this over the last couple of decades. This event, if it occurred as the prosecutors alleges, is rare but not unprecedented.
1
Lesson here: Airlines will have to have own doctors to assess pilots' health to determine fitness
4
hows that going to help? There will always be a question about which doctor is right.
Exactly what I -- and I am sure many others -- was thinking.
Narrowly focused, narcissistic individuals with uptight reactions to any pressure to perform and a deathly fear of making a "mistake" are all too common in German society. Not all of them are criminals or mass murderers, but when one does surface - they usually come from this subset. When seeing the first photos of the young man, I immediately associated him with that personality type - even before the cockpit voice recordings surfaced.
The typical TV police series there involves mostly psychological criminality that sometimes combines with brutality and violence - much "heavier" than anything here.
There is definitely a cultural component to whatever played out here.
The typical TV police series there involves mostly psychological criminality that sometimes combines with brutality and violence - much "heavier" than anything here.
There is definitely a cultural component to whatever played out here.
11
"Narrowly focused, narcissistic individuals with uptight reactions to any pressure to perform and a deathly fear of making a "mistake" are all too common in German society."
Are you real?
Are you real?
2
narrowly focussed, uptight reaction condemning an entire nation don' t you think? It is called racism here.
In addition, narcissistic self-promotion regarding sixth sense or other talents allowing oneself to spot criminal inclination on the basis of a photograph - I suggest you make your services available to the local police without further ado.
In addition, narcissistic self-promotion regarding sixth sense or other talents allowing oneself to spot criminal inclination on the basis of a photograph - I suggest you make your services available to the local police without further ado.
4
We have only to look back at German history to see this prediliction in their national character.
In the US I believe there are big hoops to get through if at all to continue to fly if a pilot is on a psychiatric med. It seems to me that this would be a deterrent for the pilots who are depressed to get help early on and make them more interested in hiding their illness and not seeking treatment for it.
7
Okay but here we had a pilot who sought frequent help over a period of years under full cover of confidentiality and he went on to deliberately kill 149 other people. How much worse could things have gone if his confidentiality had been permitted to breached for the good of the flying public?
1
The at-once-loss of so many innocent people, including babies and youths, is traumatic. But lets not get immersed in the thinking that there was negligence or protocols that had they been followed that this may not have happened. Have we not learned from what happened in nyc in 2001 that the hysterical attempt at prevention caused so many more problems from the trivial to the profoundly grave?
European views of "privacy" are different from ours. NOTHING in his public or professional behavior, even with hindsight, gave ANY indication of his troubles. Are girlfriends supposed to tell airlines that he had scary dreams???? Even his "depression" - more likely to induce apathy or withdrawal but he kept up his interests in gliding and in mountains. Sadly.
His pilot had absolute confidence until the last moments.
He was not a madman beyond description. He was deranged and he snapped. It happens all the time.
He was overwhelmed by his own darkness. It is human. Very human. There were 6,000 of those planes in service day after day at least.
I just don't see him, or Lufthansa, pilloried. I don't see the comfort in that.
I don't see punitive measures not backfiring again. Sure - two people in the cockpit. Still people. Maybe that would make two risks together. Sure a code override. Nothing is FAIL SAFE.
I don't know what to make of that man who did that. I can live with that. The people who lost their lives - "immeasurable pain".
European views of "privacy" are different from ours. NOTHING in his public or professional behavior, even with hindsight, gave ANY indication of his troubles. Are girlfriends supposed to tell airlines that he had scary dreams???? Even his "depression" - more likely to induce apathy or withdrawal but he kept up his interests in gliding and in mountains. Sadly.
His pilot had absolute confidence until the last moments.
He was not a madman beyond description. He was deranged and he snapped. It happens all the time.
He was overwhelmed by his own darkness. It is human. Very human. There were 6,000 of those planes in service day after day at least.
I just don't see him, or Lufthansa, pilloried. I don't see the comfort in that.
I don't see punitive measures not backfiring again. Sure - two people in the cockpit. Still people. Maybe that would make two risks together. Sure a code override. Nothing is FAIL SAFE.
I don't know what to make of that man who did that. I can live with that. The people who lost their lives - "immeasurable pain".
272
Well said. The human condition. I fear that the West has lost perspective. Recently. we repeatedly hear in the news that scientists are aiming to extend life expectancy to 145 years or more. Our confidence in science and technology seems to have no limits. Yet we go one bombing, defiling nature, and trust computer systems despite hacking and the fact that we no longer seem to talk with each other. Let's bring the study of philosophy and the arts back in the mainstream.
4
It's too early to be so positive that NOTHING in his public or professional behavior gave any indication of his troubles. We don't know that yet.
2
A doctor's note that disallows a patient's working should have legal binding - adults as well as adolescents. We'll probably never know what "really" happened. But, I would bet money that there is debate of the highest level going on right now in germany about privacy as it concerns involuntary psychiatric hospitalization. Real insanity is knowingly allow a patient on the verge of psychosis go to work to fly a commuter plane with 150 people on board.
2
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
It seems there were those who looked away from what were
serious, even ominous, indicators of pilot competence.
Following this catastrophe a spokesman for Lufthansa asserted that Lubitz was "100% flightworthy."
Those who chose to look away and say nothing are complicit.
It seems there were those who looked away from what were
serious, even ominous, indicators of pilot competence.
Following this catastrophe a spokesman for Lufthansa asserted that Lubitz was "100% flightworthy."
Those who chose to look away and say nothing are complicit.
9
No---there is nothing in any of that details that could have predicted his actions. Depression is extremely common. So is hiding it from our employers.
This gets worse at every turn. Much worse.
And no one knew?
No one noticed a thing?
No one in health care he saw connected the dots between their diagnoses and his occupation?
Boy, let's hope the airline industry learns a big lesson from this. One is that airline pilots have no right to health confidentiality. None from now on; and make failure to disclose by patient or practitioner a criminal act.
Otherwise we are all in jeopardy.
And no one knew?
No one noticed a thing?
No one in health care he saw connected the dots between their diagnoses and his occupation?
Boy, let's hope the airline industry learns a big lesson from this. One is that airline pilots have no right to health confidentiality. None from now on; and make failure to disclose by patient or practitioner a criminal act.
Otherwise we are all in jeopardy.
15
No pilot will seek treatment if your idea goes into effect. No will know until bad things happen
1
"Boy, let's hope the airline industry learns a big lesson from this. One is that airline pilots have no right to health confidentiality. None from now on; and make failure to disclose by patient or practitioner a criminal act."
I wish I could recommend Notafan's post here a thousand times. Health confidentiality trump the lives of 149 innocent victims? Preposterous.
I wish I could recommend Notafan's post here a thousand times. Health confidentiality trump the lives of 149 innocent victims? Preposterous.
Great point, pilots have hundreds of lives in their hands every day. They can't be having secrets about health issues. Perhaps medical personnel should be legally obliged to disclose such information. When it comes to life and death scenarios, we must dispense with privacy to a reasonable degree.
A threshold of flying time in commercial aircraft, not carrying passengers for hire, would provide a "proving ground" opportunity for prospective hires. Are there so few pilots available someone with just over 600 hours commercial flying time is given an aircraft full of people? That could be as few as 6 ten hour flights, most of which is computer managed!!! I don't know what the flying time was when this guy was hired.
More time in the presence of other professionals with evaluation of performance for, say, 1500 hours might help provide a filter for this kind of problem.
More time in the presence of other professionals with evaluation of performance for, say, 1500 hours might help provide a filter for this kind of problem.
10
600 hours is not 6x10; it's 60 10-hour flights or many, many more short flights. Obviously, signs were missed, and the real math makes that sound worse, not better.
1
I think you mean 100 6-hour flights.
1
I believe that's 600 (630) hours total logged flying time he had, counted from the first hour of his first lesson, not commercial flying time. After the Calgon Air Buffalo accident a few years ago, I think in the U.S. a pilot now has to have 1500 total hours to be a captain, even of a regional airline (again, counted from the first hour of the first flying lesson.)
1
I may be harsh, but I wouldn't let a depressed, 27 year old mama's boy drive my car.
Retired military pilots are for me; they've been through the wringer of stress already and didn't wash out.
Public safety must take precedence over a patient's privacy, we just saw vivid proof of this.
Retired military pilots are for me; they've been through the wringer of stress already and didn't wash out.
Public safety must take precedence over a patient's privacy, we just saw vivid proof of this.
38
Don't know the exact figure, but I'd be surprised if much more than 10% of today's commercial pilots are former military.
I've been thinking the same thing; I wouldn't ride in a bus driven by a young man that age let alone one with only 600 hours experience.
Is there such a shortage of pilots that such a novice can actually be in charge -- even for brief periods, theoretically -- of an A320 at 38,000 feet? Scary.
Is there such a shortage of pilots that such a novice can actually be in charge -- even for brief periods, theoretically -- of an A320 at 38,000 feet? Scary.
Even if there was no medical privacy, which there should be, who is to say the doctors would have checked him out and said you're fine we see nothing wrong and still let him fly. Then we would be trying to get that doctor thrown in jail.
I read one post so far that sums it up and it said, "there is too much speculation here". So based on pure speculation people are saying we need to give pilots zero privacy to medical records. That will surely lead to everyone down the road. The only thing that needs to be disclosed is if a pych doctor says psychosis is involved and the persons job puts others at risk.
I read one post so far that sums it up and it said, "there is too much speculation here". So based on pure speculation people are saying we need to give pilots zero privacy to medical records. That will surely lead to everyone down the road. The only thing that needs to be disclosed is if a pych doctor says psychosis is involved and the persons job puts others at risk.
2
Surely his doctor needed to disclose to Lufhansa his condition? It's not like he was a street sweeper with no responsibility for people's lives.
27
And how's the doctor supposed to know his an airline pilot? If asked, he could simply say he works in the airline industry. He could be a pilot, a financial manager, a janitor...
If a doctor asks me what I do for a living, I tell the doctor I work in the software industry. I could be a programmer or work in customer support or be responsible for the software that flies an airplane. How's the doctor supposed to know from my answer?
If a doctor asks me what I do for a living, I tell the doctor I work in the software industry. I could be a programmer or work in customer support or be responsible for the software that flies an airplane. How's the doctor supposed to know from my answer?
1
This incident is very rare and should be treated as such. Since this story is all you hear on the news, there will be demands for changes, most of which don't make sense, like video cameras in the cockpit and extensive psychological screening of pilots. If we take this route, why not do the same for all bus drivers and train engineers. There is no end to it.
28
Despondent and suicidal I can comprehend; but taking 150 innocent men, women, children and babies with you in your suicidal quest makes Lubitz, in my eyes at least, a monster. As for the doctors who failed to report him to the appropriate authorities, the jury is still out.
23
Doctor/Patient confidentiality, same as lawyer/client confidentiality must not be perverted because of this tragedy. Changing that principle will of course just lead to patients changing when and how they consult the doctor. If a patient is fearful loosing his/her job over health problems and the doctor can report him/her to authorities or employers, it seems obvious that the patient will not seek out the doctor in the first place.
As for the confidentiality now: Of course the German authorities will get all the access to his medical files following proper legal procedures. The same as in the US. You can be sure that they have it already. You can also be sure that a at this point of the investigation it is in nobody's interest to make it public to everybody (yet).
As for the confidentiality now: Of course the German authorities will get all the access to his medical files following proper legal procedures. The same as in the US. You can be sure that they have it already. You can also be sure that a at this point of the investigation it is in nobody's interest to make it public to everybody (yet).
146
A dead man can't assert confidentiality. As for your defense of absolute medical privacy, that certainly does not exist in this country wherein doctors are mandated reporters of suspected abuse, or of an imminent danger a patient may pose toward others. In the case of Lubitz, I don't know what would have happened if exceptions to German privacy laws had existed to permit doctors to communicate a decision to ground a pilot, but I do know that if said exceptions had been permitted, 149 innocent people [and probably one homicidal co-pilot] would still be alive.
3
I don't think it's compromise of confidentiality that's at stake. The doctor wrote a no work note. But, maybe his/her hands were tied as it concerns the possible involuntarily hospitalizing of Lubutz. It's convenient to have black and white privacy/confidentiality laws but the medical and legal worlds are not exclusive and don't behave as such.
1
In the US, if you hold a pilot's license, your medical records are not confidential. The FAA can look at them any time they want. That includes driving and criminal records as well. And you know this when you receive a pilot's license.
3
That's rich. The hospital clinic couldn't comment on his eye condition because of medical privacy laws! The guy's dead- how does he have privacy anymore?
16
It's very clear that confidentiality goes on after the patient is deceased
1
There are other articles that make it clear that the privacy laws are extended to patients even once they are deceased.
3
I keep seeing information about the doctor's notes saying he was "unfit to work," but I wonder if that is a correct translation or interpretation by the American press. When I worked in France, I was offered an "arret de travail" (stop work) by the doctor several times for conditions ranging from a bad cold to a sprained ankle. This note required that my employer not dock my wages for missing work, but it was more of a right and a courtesy to me as a patient/worker than anything. This did not mean that the doctor thought I was incapable of doing my job or had any knowledge that I might be a danger to others. It was the equivalent of sending a "please excuse this kid from school today," an utterly foreign concept for American workers. If I wasn't contagious or incapacitated, I tossed the notes and went to work. So before we assume that the doctors knew he was losing his vision or had a dangerous mental illness, I'd like to know more. Of course, if they knew he was dangerous, that is very serious. Hopefully German privacy laws will allow for a reassessment of how medical info is released to the employer in these cases.
308
I agree completely. I think there may be a cultural difference in the understanding of "unfit to work."
5
I have waited from the beginning for an explanation from someone in the media of what "unfit to work" means on these particular German health-work forms/documents. How hard can it be for one journalist somewhere finding-out those details, translation or not? I'm happy to call a friend in Germany about that and let the Times know the facts.
5
This is absolutely right. These notes are to let you at your discretion not go to work if you don't feel well, and assure your employer that there is a genuine medical reason for your absence. Of course, I do not know if the notes Lubitz had were this kind of a note, but the reporting suggests it is likely. Also, here in France every single medical evaluation on every doctor's visit is entered on a computer database to which every doctor you go to has access (I am not sure if this is national but it is certainly regional). So here, with appropriate authorization given by you to your employer, it would be possible for a company physician to periodically scan your medical records as part of a due diligence process if you are in a kind of job where this would be warranted. I do not know if this is actually done, but the infrastructure is certainly in place to do it.
4
Lubitz is dead. Although it is too late to prevent this tragedy, his privacy is no longer an issue.
138
With respect, you (and apparently others here) do not understand medical ethics. The proper authorities will have access to the records.
16
Gary, this isn't about his privacy. It's about your privacy. Don't you get that ?
A lot of commenters are demanding that pilots should no longer have privacy. That's a very easy position for non-pilots to make.
Now what if we extend that to drivers, after all many more people die in cars than in planes. I bet if divulging all of your medical history to the DMV was a requirement for getting and keeping a license to drive, there would be a huge uproar about it. And what if when you were pulled over, you had to provide license, registration, and full medical history ? You would flip out.
A lot of commenters are demanding that pilots should no longer have privacy. That's a very easy position for non-pilots to make.
Now what if we extend that to drivers, after all many more people die in cars than in planes. I bet if divulging all of your medical history to the DMV was a requirement for getting and keeping a license to drive, there would be a huge uproar about it. And what if when you were pulled over, you had to provide license, registration, and full medical history ? You would flip out.
5
Yes, privacy is an issue. If an exception is made for one person's privacy then more exceptions will be made for other person's privacy until, finally, all the people in the world end up with America's no privacy standard. There is no need for anyone to know anymore than what we already do know regard Mr. Lubitz other than morbid curiosity. The authorities investigating have access to everything they need to evaluate, investigate, and decide this case.
2
When your job determines the safety of the public, patient confidentiality should not apply. It is the same as having no right to endanger the public health, even on your own property.
52
Even confessed murderers, etc are entitled to dr-patient confidentiality unless thedoctor is subpoenaed by a court of law, regardless of their profession.
3
Patient confidentiality is the only reason we know this guy had problems to begin with! You're basically asking for pilots who get into trouble to get *less* help than they do today, which obviously isn't enough. You can't do a blood test or a urine screen for depression, they have to tell you - and you want to raise the stakes even further against them letting on that there's anything wrong?
PILOTS LIE. Most pilots have an airplane doctor and a real doctor and the two doctors never know the other doctor exists, so if a pilot sees a shrink the aviation doctor has no knowledge of that unless the pilot tells him. In the US the FAA physical has a medical history section with stiff fines and jail if you lie. I lost my FAA medical due to some meds I have to take (not mental meds) and if I didn't tell my aviation doctor he never would have known. The FAA also told me that the meds I was grounded for would have been fine in Europe...a very scary thought.
2
This person's medical privacy rights are no longer valid.
The public needs to know.
The public needs to know.
68
Why on earth does the public need to know? Investigators need to perhaps - to work to prevent such scenarios. And perhaps the airlines need to know medical details on all their pilots. But why do WE need to know?
18
I agree with the first sentence of this, but not the second. Why does the public need to know? I see a confusion of wants and needs here.
3
He was probably on anti-depressants, which if improperly monitored or prescribed without proper diagnoses, can result in psychosis. Many patients on anti-depressants develop vision problems.
72
Perhaps true, but many assumptions. I would look to personality issues, especially narcissism as an alternative or additional factor. For certain people, serious losses (career, relationship, finances, etc.) push them "over the edge." Think of other suicides (and perhaps homicide+suicide) which were strongly precipitated by life events.
21
He's German, antidepressants aren't prescribed at nearly the rate they are in the US. Unless it comes out that he was actually prescribed antidepressants, it should be assumed he was not.
7
Some of the photos of him show a fair amount of acne, more than one would expect at his age. Aren't some medications for that issue reputed to cause suicidal impulses, as well?
5
It is appalling to see all the comments demanding disclosure of his medical records. There is no need for the public to know until the investigation is complete and only relevant details will be released. I have no doubt that right now authorities are getting the medical records they need to find out what might have motivated him.
140
It is appalling that secrecy rules forbid the disclosure until a disaster happens. Surely the doctor was obligated to disclose to Lufhansa his condition? This is taking privacy way too far with people who are responsible for hundreds of lives, surely?
14
Why? He is dead along with 149 others. Privacy is irrelevant to him now. His rights to privacy died with him, and the others. There is nothing appalling about all of us wanting to know the facts of this case. To label it appalling is simply hyperbole. Do you fly often?
5
He's dead. His right of privacy should no longer be an issue.
3
The athletic Lubitz could have easily incapacitated a completely unsuspecting fellow pilot or flight attendant standing in and still crashed the plane. A pilot who flies a plane can crash a plane. No technology exists to prevent it and medical science does not extend to reading peoples minds before every flight.
With 36 million commercial flights per year and 3 suicidal pilots in 50 years it is not realistic to expect to screen for this incredibly rare tragic event.
With 36 million commercial flights per year and 3 suicidal pilots in 50 years it is not realistic to expect to screen for this incredibly rare tragic event.
183
If doctors who ground pilots were mandatory reporters of the no-fly status, that would be a realistic way to prevent this type of tragedy. No one at the airline had to read the co-pilot's mind, his physicians had already declared him unfit to fly either because of his depression, his sight problems or both. Had that grounded status been communicated to Germanwings or Lufthansa, this mass murder never would have happened. As in the case of those who speak to their physicians about plans to kill or abuse they have suffered or inflicted, privacy rights can be curtailed to prevent imminent harm.
1
Perhaps he could have overpowered another person who was assigned to sit in the cockpit when the pilot was on break, but this relatively simple measure may still provide a significant inhibition. A person may conceive of locking the door and putting the plane into a dive, but be repelled at the idea of murdering a co-pilot or flight attendant with his bare hands as a precondition to crashing the plane.
2
The second person on the flight deck does not prevent the officer in charge from doing anything, though it makes it somewhat less convenient and adds the power of the other person's presence. That would likely have an influence.
3
Lufthansa currently satisfies the IOSA international air safety and security audit run by IATA. Some at Lufthansa may have had an opportunity to influence the outcome of this tragedy, but the buck here surely rests with IATA and their audit teams, just as the buck rests with the auditors if there's a problem with a company's accounts.
2
In the US, a doctor who suspects that a child has been abused does not maintain medical confidentiality, but is actually *required* to report this to the authorities. This is called mandated reporting.
I keep returning to the idea that airline pilots should be subject to mandated reporting for specific medical conditions--eyesight(!!), mental health, substance abuse. I realize that there are many arguments pro and con: "What about nuclear power plant operators?" "What about bus drivers?" "If pilots are subject to mandated reporting, they just won't consult a doctor" and more.
However, I would like to see a public discussion of mandated reporting. The idea that a doctor declared him "too ill to work", and that the airline never knew this, is maddening. No doubt in the end we will learn all about Andreas Lubitz's medical history, but now it is too late.
I keep returning to the idea that airline pilots should be subject to mandated reporting for specific medical conditions--eyesight(!!), mental health, substance abuse. I realize that there are many arguments pro and con: "What about nuclear power plant operators?" "What about bus drivers?" "If pilots are subject to mandated reporting, they just won't consult a doctor" and more.
However, I would like to see a public discussion of mandated reporting. The idea that a doctor declared him "too ill to work", and that the airline never knew this, is maddening. No doubt in the end we will learn all about Andreas Lubitz's medical history, but now it is too late.
52
Airline pilots are *already* screened for a wide variety of conditions (including eyesight, mental health, and substance abuse) by a specially-trained doctor (called an aviation medical examiner, basically a civilian flight surgeon) every year if under 40, and every 6 months if over 40. They are required to list every doctor's visit they've had in 3 years and the reason, and failing to do so is grounds for certificate revocation. You're right that this causes people to not seek medical attention - it's already a huge problem and surely whatever comes out of this crash will make it even worse.
1
The doctor should have contacted someone.
But whom?
Would the doctor know whom to contact in this sort of instance? One can't rely on the employee to follow directions. There are people who break rules all of the time, from driving over the speed limit upwards to committing a horrible crime like this one.
But the question is, whom would the doctor contact? The main office of Lufthansa? Who would answer the phone and how many levels of command would it take to get the notice to the right person?
Perhaps the person could have called the police. Again, there could be red tape there but at least we would have a recording and chain of command that would be governmental, not private. Then again, I'm writing this as an American and without knowledge of how the German governmental and private systems work.
And enough of how passionate he was about flying. A lot of us have passions but for whatever reason, sometimes they don't come to pass. It should not be the end of the world but yes, I understand that for those with mental illness something like this can take a toll, especially at a young age. Although 27 is not really that young in the scheme of things....
What a horrible mess.
But whom?
Would the doctor know whom to contact in this sort of instance? One can't rely on the employee to follow directions. There are people who break rules all of the time, from driving over the speed limit upwards to committing a horrible crime like this one.
But the question is, whom would the doctor contact? The main office of Lufthansa? Who would answer the phone and how many levels of command would it take to get the notice to the right person?
Perhaps the person could have called the police. Again, there could be red tape there but at least we would have a recording and chain of command that would be governmental, not private. Then again, I'm writing this as an American and without knowledge of how the German governmental and private systems work.
And enough of how passionate he was about flying. A lot of us have passions but for whatever reason, sometimes they don't come to pass. It should not be the end of the world but yes, I understand that for those with mental illness something like this can take a toll, especially at a young age. Although 27 is not really that young in the scheme of things....
What a horrible mess.
20
As an American, you of all people should know what a slippery slope this would create with regard to HIPAA law.
2
I have treated pilots and air traffic controllers who reported they could not be on psychiatric medication and continue to work according to regulations . They were confronted with a dilemma: hide their treatment or forgo medication. Some went to work with severe depression. I don't believe taking hypertensive medication or insulin has the same stigma. Smilarly one can not exclude from flying a depressed person any more than a hypertensive or diabetic. However, a psychosis would be require a psychiatrist to notify supervisors that the pilot should not fly; so would dementia and angina.
243
I think the are other options pilots in this situation can take other than the 2 you state. One option would be to come forward with their issue, which in most cases I believe the airlines would work with the pilots.
A second option would be to take a leave of absence....
A second option would be to take a leave of absence....
5
For the record, the FAA medical examiners do exclude pilots who report diabetes or hypertension without further follow-up testing.
5
If one is a paper pusher or any other job where the safety of others is at stake, then it's just a private medical issue. But if one flys commercial planes or drives a school bus or does surgery, them his health, or lack thereof, may well mean he needs to be put on work leave. The right of the public to be safe trumps just about everything.
2
As I have said Recent news, the copilot diagnosed with vision problems underlines the crash- and-burn theory. Apparently recently his girlfriend reejcted and broke up with him, now he may lose his job due to vision problems; he is losing everything. While he may have a "mental illness" these events pushed him over the edge. He may be a narrowly focused, narcissistic-type and now angry/despondent individual who violently killed himself and apparently took flight crew, airline, and innocent passengers with him.
If this is true, it is certainly not "terrorism" in the normal sense, nor necessarily premeditated. He may have been brooding and once the pilot left the flight deck, he acted on his emotions impulsively. He may have been too self-absorbed to think of the passengers or he may have "punished" them too. All this is pretty hard to uncover in a "mental health check" because he would not reveal it.
We will never know.
Of course this does not negate a "rush to judgement" by press/airline, or other complicating factors such as Germany medical policy, poor aircraft fail safe procedures, etc.
If this is true, it is certainly not "terrorism" in the normal sense, nor necessarily premeditated. He may have been brooding and once the pilot left the flight deck, he acted on his emotions impulsively. He may have been too self-absorbed to think of the passengers or he may have "punished" them too. All this is pretty hard to uncover in a "mental health check" because he would not reveal it.
We will never know.
Of course this does not negate a "rush to judgement" by press/airline, or other complicating factors such as Germany medical policy, poor aircraft fail safe procedures, etc.
42
Spot on, Lori. I was speculating the exact same thing yesterday on facebook. It is the personal life not his depression that explains what he did. So many people suffer from depression and anxiety these days, they are not all mass murderers waiting to act, as this guy did methodically as soon as his captain left the cockpit. Depression does not make people kill others. It is character-type that makes that likely. This guy seems to have been a narcissist for whom the rejection by his girlfriend and the loss of his ability to fly was just too much for him. With that character and those frustrating circumstances, he decided to end him miserable life and took 149 others with him.
3
Right on.
Having suffered from depression, there is no telling when the darkness hits and how severe it can be. In the moment, and especially for a younger person, the minutes and hours may seem like entirety, with no light at the end of the tunnel.
Typically, rejection and anxiety may be triggers, but also the possibility of mental abuse in the home, ranging from narcissistic parents hellbent on channeling their ambitions through a child, to dysfunctional family unit with poor communication and no relief valve for pent up frustrations and anger.
In a modern context, I see young people with the energy and the go-get attitude that may be a winning formula in most cases. However, there is a growing tendency to over-estimate the real ability of young people to manage the appearance of success and the real life that ultimately they will have to lead, with downfalls, set-backs, loss, sickness and death.
It's time to take things down a notch and dial back on the glamour factor being presented in magazines, social media, film and TV.
Real life is about family, friends, hard work, but also accomplishment in the daily routines of cooking, cleaning, and caring for spouses, kids, parents, brothers, sisters, and the strangers that walk into your business every day.
Having suffered from depression, there is no telling when the darkness hits and how severe it can be. In the moment, and especially for a younger person, the minutes and hours may seem like entirety, with no light at the end of the tunnel.
Typically, rejection and anxiety may be triggers, but also the possibility of mental abuse in the home, ranging from narcissistic parents hellbent on channeling their ambitions through a child, to dysfunctional family unit with poor communication and no relief valve for pent up frustrations and anger.
In a modern context, I see young people with the energy and the go-get attitude that may be a winning formula in most cases. However, there is a growing tendency to over-estimate the real ability of young people to manage the appearance of success and the real life that ultimately they will have to lead, with downfalls, set-backs, loss, sickness and death.
It's time to take things down a notch and dial back on the glamour factor being presented in magazines, social media, film and TV.
Real life is about family, friends, hard work, but also accomplishment in the daily routines of cooking, cleaning, and caring for spouses, kids, parents, brothers, sisters, and the strangers that walk into your business every day.
2
There is also the problem of German labor law. Disputes between employer and employee are decided by a Labor court, which has a tendency to find for the weaker party, the employee. Imagine Lufthansa not giving a pilot position to Lubitz after certifying him as a pilot. Litigation would be difficult and Lubitz would probably win. So they did the next best thing to keep him out of the cockpit, the let him serve drinks to the plebes that cheap airline flies around, hoping he would give up, go elsewhere or disqualify himself in some other manner.
I don't like our "Right to Work Law" but in this case it would have been a clean solution to a problem that only got worse with time.
I don't like our "Right to Work Law" but in this case it would have been a clean solution to a problem that only got worse with time.
6
He was a co-pilot.
Lufthansa would be foolish indeed if it chose the risk of labor law litigation over the risk of a multi-million euro wrongful death award for knowingly allowing a compromised co-pilot in the cockpit.
Right to work laws have no relevance in this situation.
Lufthansa would be foolish indeed if it chose the risk of labor law litigation over the risk of a multi-million euro wrongful death award for knowingly allowing a compromised co-pilot in the cockpit.
Right to work laws have no relevance in this situation.
14
I think you may have that reversed. Foolish if they chose the risk of wrongful death, wise to have taken the risk of labor litigation.
2
So if you know about a potential murderer entering as a passenger an airline but keep quiet you end up in jail. But if you are a doctor and know about an insane pilot you have to shut up as per doctor/patient confidentiality. I'm missing something.
55
I'm not sure a doctor knew this person is "insane" (as you put it). If his recent diagnosis is for vision problems that is not a mental health problem and an eye doctor would probably not investigate mental health issue.
22
The note against flying was for vision, wasn't it? Same difference, I suppose.
4
This whole investigation is still in very early stages. Leaping to fear-based stereotypes lends nothing to an intelligent, concerned discussion. The term "insane" carries a very different connotation than the increasingly common and treatable forms of mental illness. There has been no report that this pilot had a condition that was violent or untreatable. Millions of people live with manageable forms of ongoing physical illness, and millions also live and function very well with treatable forms of mental illness for which they are receiving appropriate care. Your post implies that this pilot was crazed and rabid, but that is not evident in any of the reports. It's very hard in the face of tragedy to live with the truth that we simply do not know what happened. But to jump the use of hostile, fear-based terms is not constructive, insightful, or helpful to the discussion.
50
Almost everyone seems to agree that when it comes to safety issues Privacy should take a back seat. The physician who treated the pilot should have had a legal responsibility to notify his employer if he knew his patient was a pilot and not fit to work or had another type of job where the patient is responsible for public safety.
62
If you knew that your physician would tell your employer the outcome of a medical exam, you probably would not seek the help of the medical professional....not sure that is the answer to the problem.
40
Unless the physician is involved in evaluating patients for a specific job, this would be difficult to do.
Does the average physician know what the vision requirements are for a pilot?
Does the average physician know what the vision requirements are for a pilot?
1
I would think pilots would have mandatory company eye exams regularly.
2
Anyone else noticing that none of this is an explanation for why he, supposedly, did what he did? Even the most depressed people in the world wont kill others, theyll just lay in bed all day and never move a muscle. For someone to devote 8 minutes to the most horrifying, terrifying descent directly into a mountain, that takes something far, FAR beyond mere depression. This whole story makes very, very little sense, to the extent that it continues to seem like something is being kept from the public on the whole thing. The way every news outlet says he had a medical condition, instead of just flat out saying he suffered from clinical depression, the way theyre now talking about he had vision issues, as if that somehow has anything to do with why he would commit one of the most deliberately, fatally terrifying acts, not just to others but to himself....
Anyone who thinks this story is just as simple as this, he was depressed, so he flew the plane into a mountain, you gotta be kidding if you dont think theres something more to it. This is way too weird to just blame on depression, which causes people to be apathetic, not destructive.
Anyone who thinks this story is just as simple as this, he was depressed, so he flew the plane into a mountain, you gotta be kidding if you dont think theres something more to it. This is way too weird to just blame on depression, which causes people to be apathetic, not destructive.
182
You have to understand that clinical depression manifests differently in people. Apathy, overeating, and bed-ridden for some; insomnia, no appetite, and mania for others. There's no one way to be depressed.
1
Some experience agitation when depressed. We just do not know enough to have the comfort of a reasonable conclusion based on what is known. Personslly, no matter what is being said about the craft's mechanical functioning, it does not offer resolution for me. Everyone responds differently. So heartbreaking for the families.
Yes, and the "something else," in my opinion, based on what we know so far (next to nothing, really), is a focal motor seizure, during which a person appears awake, remains upright, and is capable of performing "stereotyped actions," such as turning knobs, but is unresponsive and unaware of his surroundings.
People can have them for years before being diagnosed - they just look like they "space out" for a few minutes.
Such a diagnosis would explain problems with his training (hard to remember classroom lessons that occurred while you "weren't there"), as well as his breathing steadily to the end (he was not alert, and did not realize the danger).
More information will come out with time.
People can have them for years before being diagnosed - they just look like they "space out" for a few minutes.
Such a diagnosis would explain problems with his training (hard to remember classroom lessons that occurred while you "weren't there"), as well as his breathing steadily to the end (he was not alert, and did not realize the danger).
More information will come out with time.
5
Something doesn't jive here with respect to cause & effect. He apparently had vision problems and visited a health professional with the authority to keep him from work. I can understand a patient's privacy when working with a doctor over mental health issues, but why on earth wouldn't Germanwings have known about a supposed vision problem--especially one that might've been so horrible as to cause the pilot to consider suicide? We'll never know exactly why the pilot did what he did, but something tells me his supposed vision problem was just a small part of his psyche.
14
This is exactly what a lot of people think in Germany as well!
6
Yes, we don't know why he visited an eye doctor. Perhaps he just needed new glasses.
4
At this point, with little doubt about the direct cause of the crash, the German government is the one holding all the secrets about the ultimate causes. This is getting more absurd by the hour.
If there is a law so stupid to prevent the release of medical data about any person on who's health hundreds of lives depend daily, let alone a dead person who probably killed hundreds due to his medical condition, then that law needs to change.
The German government must amend this stupid law retroactively, release the critical evidence for the cause the plain crash and apologize to the victims' loved ones and to everyone else who plans to travel by air in the future. By hiding the critical data that could explain this disaster the German government is indeed putting entire aviation industry and its costumers in harm's way. Act responsibly!
If there is a law so stupid to prevent the release of medical data about any person on who's health hundreds of lives depend daily, let alone a dead person who probably killed hundreds due to his medical condition, then that law needs to change.
The German government must amend this stupid law retroactively, release the critical evidence for the cause the plain crash and apologize to the victims' loved ones and to everyone else who plans to travel by air in the future. By hiding the critical data that could explain this disaster the German government is indeed putting entire aviation industry and its costumers in harm's way. Act responsibly!
21
"Acting responsibly" means waiting til you have all the information and not rushing to judgement until then. It also means following the law. If the law needs to be changed, then there are means to do that, but to arbitrarily toss aside established policies, procedures, laws, etc. to the side for convenience of those who "want answers now", does not only short term harm, but long term damage to finding the truth.
19
Mental health professionals are allowed to break confidentiality under certain circumstances that include if a patient makes a specific threat to hurt himself or someone else. Also, the court can order a therapist to testify (which the therapist/doctor might challenge). But when a patient has a serious, ongoing mental illness, it a a difficult call to know when the patient has crossed the line and reporting is essential. Even if the threat is reported, often the response of the police or other civic service leaders is inadequate and short lived. Also, eventually a mentally ill patient may keep his "secrets" from his therapist because he has lucid moments and realizes the consequences of sharing his destructive delusions. These situations are no easy call -
33
Andreas Lubitz was a walking disaster waiting to happen at the right time and the right place. It is just too bad so many good people had to die because of this guy was unstoppable by the airlines and by appropriate authorities. The vision problem was just another possible explanation and could have been a side effects of the medications he was on or a possible result of his condition. His psychiatrist had clearly told him that he was unfit to work but he chose to get in to the cockpit of Germanwings anyway. Andreas was a vicious and confused human being who caused the deaths of 150 innocent people.According to his girl friend he was hell bent on exiting the world with a bang and be remembered and so he did. Very pathetic excuse for a human being who destroyed so many lives and disrupted 1000s of lives of friends and loved ones.
36
Visual problems are among the most minor of the known side effects of antidepressant medications. Psychotic reactions, including uncontrollable suicidal thoughts and violence are also possible. Lubitz may have been one of what is claimed to be a small number of patients who experience serious side effects from these medications.
16
Workerbee, Lubitz was German,and antidepressants aren't prescribed at nearly the rate there that they are in the US. Unless it comes out that he was actually prescribed antidepressants, it should be assumed he was not.
2
I've come the same conclusion about Lubitz. "Andreas was a vicious and confused human being who caused the deaths of 150 innocent people."
Vision problems? Some other physical condition? Depression? Suicidal tendencies? No matter what, it is unspeakable tragedy with no winners.
In our rush to judgment we are quick to condemn, not so ready to wait for (hopefully) definitive answers.
In our rush to judgment we are quick to condemn, not so ready to wait for (hopefully) definitive answers.
26
No winners? That's quite an understatement! The man deliberately downed a plane and killed 149 innocents. It's more than a tragedy; it's mass murder. In what way is being quick to condemn such behavior inappropriate? Trying to find the motive behind the co-pilot's evil behavior is a necessary exercise but no one should confuse it for trying to find a reason to make of Andreas Lubitz anything other than a monstrous killer.
2
The verdict is still out on "deliberately", at least until we know all that happened and the cause[s]. It may not be so simple as "mass murder", "evil behavior" or "monstrous killer".
Can't one infer from the NYT story that Lubitz was depressed because of his vision problems. It pretty much says so.
It's beginning to look like he had just lost his relationship with his fiancée and was about to lose his beloved career as a pilot. At 27 years old, these disappointments seem cataclysmic. Immaturity and selfishness and self-pity rather than malice and murderous intent, seems to me, though that's no consolation. How about some older pilots?
12
Yes, distraught over possible loss of career that he loved,
an impulsive act of self-pity.
an impulsive act of self-pity.
5
Hate to sound smug but as soon as we heard it was a 20-something who locked the cockpit door, I said "Jilted recently, mark my words!"
Young males incapable of dealing maturely with rejection are such a massive danger to society. What is happening that so many of them are raised to be this way?
Young males incapable of dealing maturely with rejection are such a massive danger to society. What is happening that so many of them are raised to be this way?
7
Immaturity, self-pity and selfishness are found in people of all ages. Not sure what boundary age David has in mind.
1
It is too easy to pick apart this young man's life now that he has done a terrible deed but anyone with direct experience with suicide knows that it is a decision often made impulsively and without any thought of consequences. Suicide victims often involve others in their action with no consideration of what that means. Think of the mother who finds a son with a self inflicted gunshot wound, the trucker who has a vehicle slam into his, a train engineer who sees someone standing boldly in the way, all suffer for the rest of their life. All this talk of how normal Lubitz was simply reinforces this and should make everyone reading it think how much we as a society stigmatize seeking any kind of help. Continuing to call him a madman or lunatic is part of the problem.
175
It wasn't the social stigma Mr Lubitz was worried about. It was that he would lose his ability to be a pilot that drove his terrible act.
10
And sometimes things do not go as planned. I know of someone who committed suicide by means of carbon monoxide in her car in her garage. It seemed that she intended for her husband to find her but her sons (under 12) were home earlier than expected and the elder one found her. Imagine the psychological damage that did, over and above the idea of the mother having killed herself.
We cannot label this man as a lunatic, but he was clearly troubled. I agree with the comments of many who have said that public safety trumps privacy of medical information when it comes to those who fly our planes, drive our trains, etc. There are many professions where obligatory medical and psych exams are part of the job, just as drug and alcohol testing may be done to ensure that the responsibility for safety is not broken.
We cannot label this man as a lunatic, but he was clearly troubled. I agree with the comments of many who have said that public safety trumps privacy of medical information when it comes to those who fly our planes, drive our trains, etc. There are many professions where obligatory medical and psych exams are part of the job, just as drug and alcohol testing may be done to ensure that the responsibility for safety is not broken.
3
@ibivi
And how do you know that for a fact?
And how do you know that for a fact?
2
"Police searching Mr. Lubitz’s apartment here in Düsseldorf on Thursday found doctors’ notes that said he was too ill to work, including on the day of the crash. One had been torn up and thrown in the wastebasket, supporting investigators’s suspicion that he was hiding his medical problems from the airline."
The doctor is a psychiatrist, and the condition which caused the doctor to declare Lubitz too ill to work was "serious" depression. This was revealed in earlier news reports. In any case of serious depression, powerful antidepressant medications are prescribed, but this will not be made into an issue in the media. Similar to all the cases of school mass shootings by troubled youth, each of the young men had been treated for mental illness, but this was not revealed until after each incident had disappeared from the headlines. Likewise, we will probably have to wait until this incident is off the front pages to find out what the authorities know about Lubitz's psychiatric problems and the nature of the treatment he received.
The doctor is a psychiatrist, and the condition which caused the doctor to declare Lubitz too ill to work was "serious" depression. This was revealed in earlier news reports. In any case of serious depression, powerful antidepressant medications are prescribed, but this will not be made into an issue in the media. Similar to all the cases of school mass shootings by troubled youth, each of the young men had been treated for mental illness, but this was not revealed until after each incident had disappeared from the headlines. Likewise, we will probably have to wait until this incident is off the front pages to find out what the authorities know about Lubitz's psychiatric problems and the nature of the treatment he received.
32
This is not true. We do not know why he was declared unfit to fly on that day. The University hospital could have told him not to fly because of his eyes. It does appear he had a bout of serious depression during his training and there are indications it may have recurred but we do not know with certainty that was why he was not supposed to fly that day.
As for depression, the FAA now allows pilots on certain SSRIs to fly. I believe they must not fly for a certain period of time to ensure treatment is successful. But then they can return to work.
Truthfully, I'd rather have a pilot who is under successful treatment than one hiding his symptoms and not seeking treatment. Ditto for alcohol problems. And this applies to Amtrak engineers, commuter train operators, subway operators, bus drivers.. Are we going to ban everyone who has depression from those jobs?
As for depression, the FAA now allows pilots on certain SSRIs to fly. I believe they must not fly for a certain period of time to ensure treatment is successful. But then they can return to work.
Truthfully, I'd rather have a pilot who is under successful treatment than one hiding his symptoms and not seeking treatment. Ditto for alcohol problems. And this applies to Amtrak engineers, commuter train operators, subway operators, bus drivers.. Are we going to ban everyone who has depression from those jobs?
47
In addition to the notorious mass killings at various schools, perhaps the most notorious of the mentally ill mass shooters in recent years is the "Aurora Shooter," James Eagan Holmes. He killed 12 and injured 70 others while shooting at people inside a movie theater in Aurora, Colorado. Holmes, like Lubitz and all the school mass shooters, was a psychiatric patient prior to committing his crimes. Likewise, he was being treated with psychiatric drugs before he committed his crimes. Almost anyone who studies photos of Holmes would agree that his facial expressions are those of a psychopath.
3
You need to provide references for your allegations.
6
Death threats for helping Lubitz begins his flying career. Really, he was 14 years old.
34
In the U.S. physicians do have the ability to rescind the driver's license of an impaired individual. This is not a privacy issue, but a public safety issue. Whether or not it applies to airline pilots is unclear, but the same principle seems all the more appropriate in light of the medical disabilities found in Andreas Lubitz, the co-pilot who evidently committed suicide while murdering 149 innocent victims. Pilots should have mandatory annual medical and psychiatric exams to insure that we never have another such tragedy. Privacy must not be used as an excuse when the public safety is at risk.
460
Rules on licenses vary by state. The motor vehicles bureau rescinds or suspends the license, not the physician. However, in some states it is up to the patient to bring the doctor's note to the licensing agency--say for a not fully controlled seizure disorder--the physician can do no more.
6
You must trust a pilot, other wise you cannot trust him with the life of hundreds of people on board and perhaps thousands in the outside (9/11), this trust must be verified in the early stage before such guy take the wheel
1
Hi, Paul! There is an incredibly rigorous medical exam program in the US (similar around the world). In the US, there are three classes of medicals. The third class medical allows for pilots to exercise the privileges associated with a private pilot's license, the second class medical allows for pilots to exercise the privileges associated with a commercial license, and the first class medical (the most rigorous exam of all three) allows for pilots to exercise the privileges associated with an airline transport pilot (ATP) certificate.
The first class medical must be renewed after 12 months if you are under 40, and every 6 months if you are over 40. There is a very solid program in place, and this is in addition to the airlines own medical/psychological examinations.
The first class medical must be renewed after 12 months if you are under 40, and every 6 months if you are over 40. There is a very solid program in place, and this is in addition to the airlines own medical/psychological examinations.
2
When it comes to being responsible for the life of hundreds of people, safety trumps the health privacy of the pilot!
82
"Mr. Radke, who said the club had received emailed death threats for helping Mr. Lubitz begin his flying career, picked up no sign last year that anything with Mr. Lubitz was amiss." Death threats for helping someone start a flying career are not a red flag? That's normal? What in the world is that about. That seems more serious than any of the other issues. What?!!!
10
The death threats were recent, after the crash.
9
Perhaps you are misreading? Rake said that the the flying club received death threats (yesterday) for having trained many years ago a 14 year old who at the time (presumably) showed no signs of mental illness. They are not saying that Lubitz issued death threats.
14
The threats did not start until AFTER the crash.
8
This tragedy will be defined and ranked as a study in mass murder and the trail that leads one to perform such a selfish act to make a name for oneself. It's rare that something like this can happen but it shows the pioneering spirit of a polluted and psychotic mind. Preventative corrections are being made IE; Two at the helm at all times, perhaps even toilets being installed in the cock-pits, certainly a change in medical exam info directed to employers, but with hundreds of lives at stake nothing should be overlooked .
28
It is never nice to speak behind the backs of people especially one who cannot defend himself, but Andreas Lubitz comes of as a very selfish young man. The list is long of people who because of requirements could not do their dream job but that did not lead them to commit mass murder. There are many other jobs in the aviation industry he could have taken with his skills as a pilot.
Also personally, given the choice between short haul flights long haul flights, I would pick the short haul flights. I am guessing the pay is more for long haul. The airline industry has been racking up huge profits thanks to the drop in oil prices and all kinds of fees, yet it seems they are not passing any of these profits down to their employees. Lufthansa does not look good as more is known about this story.
Also personally, given the choice between short haul flights long haul flights, I would pick the short haul flights. I am guessing the pay is more for long haul. The airline industry has been racking up huge profits thanks to the drop in oil prices and all kinds of fees, yet it seems they are not passing any of these profits down to their employees. Lufthansa does not look good as more is known about this story.
14
The prestige is more for long haul, in addition to the pay.
2
"The prestige is more for long haul, in addition to the pay."
Prestige and pay often go hand in hand in the USA. Maybe it's similar in Germany. For whatever reasons, Lubitz has come across as insecure in the accounts I've read; maybe that's why he yearned for those long haul flights. He was unrealistic in thinking he could move up fast as seniority rules in the airline industry.
Prestige and pay often go hand in hand in the USA. Maybe it's similar in Germany. For whatever reasons, Lubitz has come across as insecure in the accounts I've read; maybe that's why he yearned for those long haul flights. He was unrealistic in thinking he could move up fast as seniority rules in the airline industry.
2
The man intentionally flew himself and 149 innocents into the ground.
He was a madman beyond description, thanks in part to medical 'privacy' laws which put the public at fatal risk.
149 murders thanks to medical 'privacy'.
Time to rethink the tragedy of 'privacy'.
He was a madman beyond description, thanks in part to medical 'privacy' laws which put the public at fatal risk.
149 murders thanks to medical 'privacy'.
Time to rethink the tragedy of 'privacy'.
215
I wish you luck on that one, Socrates. One of the biggest obstacles, especially with issues of mental health is the gun lobby in this country.
26
Especially when the person is dead. The families and authorities have a right to know what the co-pilot's medical problems were, if only to understand in a weird way, and to allow some accountability to be assigned.
18
Thank you and, yes. This individual was NOT a good fit mentally, behaviorally, medically, to be put in charge of flying commercial aircraft. Any aircraft. Ever. Even as a co-pilot. I can only hope Europe as a whole, rethinks how and who they put in charge of ferrying people across long distances.
15
My guess is, poor eyesight was the very least of this pilot's problems.
144
My guess is that blurry vision was caused by anti-psychotic or anti-depressive medication.
6
It might have been the biggest of his problems, if his eyesight condition meant the possibility of being banned from the only work he ever aspired to.
5
This is a terrible tragedy, for his life but the lives of so many more innocent people. All records relating to his health MUST be released. Nonsense about confidentiality, for families all need to know why this happened to their loved ones.
86
And so that we can prevent it from happening in the future.
16
sadly it would not relieve the pain of family member and friends of the murdered passengers one bit if we all had a medical diagnosis of what exactly was wrong with that man. It might satisfy some curiosity, but that is hardly a good reason. Nothing more would be gained by a disclosure. As to prevention: Even without the threat of public disclosure this young man did the unthinkable. Let's stop telling other countries to be more like the US. Here we believe that taking our shoes off at the airpot is a safety measure.
2
The drugs they have found are more important. Research (Breggin, 2008) shows that antidepressants may create just such a murederous mindset. FDA has required warnings about this for all antdepressants.
2
Psychosomatic? At least something that is probably measurable if actually non-existent.
Did Freud identify psychosomatic problems more than hundred years ago in Vienna?
Did Freud identify psychosomatic problems more than hundred years ago in Vienna?
1
Psychosomatic means problem caused by the mind. It doesn't mean the ailment is non-existent. If someone pointed a toy gun at you that looked realistic, and you had a stroke or heart attack, your reaction would be psychosomatic: your mind imagined a non-existent risk and responded.
Physical ailments can result from stress, real or imagined.
Physical ailments can result from stress, real or imagined.
8
I'd be willing to bet money that if they do an autopsy on this guy they will find a brain tumor. That would explain the vision problems and his sudden personality changes.
He probably had something growing inside his skull and that's what triggered his problems.
He probably had something growing inside his skull and that's what triggered his problems.
7
You think his head is intact? 400 mph, rock. Not going to be autopsies of anybody.
9
This is the most serious indictment of the inability to understand a person's medical history due to privacy laws. The law has everyone at risk due to behavior such as this case. Be it guns or pilot licenses there must be access and accountability.
160
It does seem that privacy laws have gone crazy. The employer apparently has to rely upon the judgment of a third party physician to determine fitness to fly. It seems like the employer should have the ability to have their own physician examine all of the pilot's records and make that determination.
7
I would like to point out that Germany, in particular, has had strong privacy laws in part because of its history. Citizens have been very concerned about government or employer involvement in personal issues because of prior abuse, in fact "terrorism" of Nazi regime. But I am sure this is being re-thought and will change in light of public safety issues.
13
Who decides which occupations should require that medical records be shared with employers? A pilot but how about a bus driver who can crash his bus and kill a bunch of people. A police officer who could pull out his gun and suddenly start shooting people. Or perhaps there should be a law that requires all of our medical records be shared with employers. And in that case, how about people who are self-employed.
And if we say it's only records pertaining to mental disorders that will be shared, it will only add to the stigma of mental illness and insure more people will avoid needed treatment.
And if we say it's only records pertaining to mental disorders that will be shared, it will only add to the stigma of mental illness and insure more people will avoid needed treatment.
9
He said he NEVER has. He treats patients ,conducts research and trains interns in an internationally renown research, teaching and training institute
which is devoted specifically to Bio-Behavioral Psychology.
These leading researcher-clinicians subscribe only to anything that is evidence based.
The question they would pose is :Is there any EVIDENCE to support
the theory that mental illness can cause vision problems?
I submit that there is no basis in evidence to support such a theory.
This internationally renown psychologist has never heard of vision problems that are psychological in nature.
I would like to know why the New York Times would publish a statement
that reads”It is not clear..whether his vision problems were related to his
psychological condition.” Did the New York Times consult with any physicians,before publishing this statement?
As to “Person with knowledge of the investigation said that the authorities
had not ruled out the possibility that the vision problems could be psychosomatic” : 150 people have been killed in a horrific plane crash. Those involved in the investigation who believe that vision problems can be psychosomatic be replaced with individuals who are competent to conduct an
investigation of such magnitude.