From the day Pete Rose picked up his first bat, he bet on himself. That's what made it great. Who is surprised he never stopped?
It is often said this is a forgiving country.
It isn't.
We are still Puritans at heart.
It is often said this is a forgiving country.
It isn't.
We are still Puritans at heart.
If they take in Rose, then surely the Hall should take in "Shoeless" Joe Jackson especially since he never took the "dive". He was just aware of it but didn't rat out his teammates.
Perhaps, depending on the degree of egregiousness, a ban from being eligible ranging from 15-25 years is one possible solution. So, someone like Peter Rose could be elected 25 years after initial eligibility.
Perhaps, depending on the degree of egregiousness, a ban from being eligible ranging from 15-25 years is one possible solution. So, someone like Peter Rose could be elected 25 years after initial eligibility.
1
Never liked the man, but couldn't help but admire the way he hit baseballs. The arguments against seem, flimsy when pitted against Schmidt's one comment --- with Rose barred all these years & the obvious suffering he's incurred, it seems enough of a message to the rest of the players, only a very select few whom will be possibilities for Hall of Fame status. Over 4200 hits? Geez, it's time to let the man in.
Don't re-instate. He knows he is one of the best to play the game. I do too. BUT, he broke the "big rule". Every club house in baseball has it hung in the clubhouse. Follow the rules, be a great player and get voted in. For me it is a confidence issue in the integrity of the game. I don't want to encourage it becoming a "confidence game."
I think that Pete Rose the manager should have a lifetime ban from baseball.
But Pete Rose the player is a bonafide 1st ballot unanimous Hall of Famer
But Pete Rose the player is a bonafide 1st ballot unanimous Hall of Famer
2
What I have said on this topic for 20+ years: Pete can get in line for reinstatement behind Shoeless Joe.
It's been, what, 95 years for Joe and 25 or so for Pete?
So maybe 70 or so years after Joe goes in, we can consider Pete.
It's been, what, 95 years for Joe and 25 or so for Pete?
So maybe 70 or so years after Joe goes in, we can consider Pete.
I had season tickets for over 20 years to the Cincinnati Reds. I have seen many, many great National League athletes during that time. As a Reds fan through the Big Red Machine era. as well as the lean years, I can truthfully say that Pete Rose never gave less, ever, on the ball field, regardless of the score, the weather, or Cincinnati's place in the standings. I have watched people stay in the late innings, when the game was essentially over. I have seen fathers, myself included, point to Pete. and tell their sons, that's how you play the game. He was never the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he never gave less than his best. Ever. He's done his penance. A Hall of Fame that includes many of his possessions and artifacts of his career, that does not include the man is hypocrisy at its zenith. It's time to elect Pete to the HOF now.
4
i watched Pete Rose play, just as I watched many of the great players from the 50s on. I remember still the thrill of Bob Gibson's World series wins, and the excitement of the Pirates beating the Yankees, thanks to Bill Mazeroski.
I also remember the rumors heard about Pete Rose and gambling, and being unsurprised when he finally admitted what was an open secret - in violation of a basic rule of baseball, he gambled on games. Compare the indignation that greets mention of McGwire,et al, and their use of drugs. And they infringed upon originally non-existent, then confusing, rules. In the case of Rose, we have an admitted offender of a long-standing, 'capital,' rule. Don't bet. What is difficult to understand about it?
Rose should not be reinstated. in some states, enough traffic violations cause you to lose your driver's license for life. So it is for Rose.
Also, I have to believe that Rose's desire for reinstatement arises not from his recognition of the stain he placed upon baseball, but that it arises from his ego. He really, really wants to be in the Hall of Fame. Well, players and coaches, count the cost of self-indulgence.
I also remember the rumors heard about Pete Rose and gambling, and being unsurprised when he finally admitted what was an open secret - in violation of a basic rule of baseball, he gambled on games. Compare the indignation that greets mention of McGwire,et al, and their use of drugs. And they infringed upon originally non-existent, then confusing, rules. In the case of Rose, we have an admitted offender of a long-standing, 'capital,' rule. Don't bet. What is difficult to understand about it?
Rose should not be reinstated. in some states, enough traffic violations cause you to lose your driver's license for life. So it is for Rose.
Also, I have to believe that Rose's desire for reinstatement arises not from his recognition of the stain he placed upon baseball, but that it arises from his ego. He really, really wants to be in the Hall of Fame. Well, players and coaches, count the cost of self-indulgence.
1
Two points. One, the hall of fame of is becoming the hall of mediocre when career leaders like Rose, Clemens, and Bonds are excluded. In my view the hall is designed to recognize outstanding achievements on the field. Not to honor choir boys. Would Ty Cobb not get elected today? Two, unless I am wrong, no one has suggested Rose bet on games when played, only when he became a manager. Had he retired and been inducted five years later and then returned to manage and place bets, would he be thrown out of the hall? Banned from baseball yes; kicked out of the hall, doubtful.
1
First change the rule to a 25 year suspension from baseball for gambling on baseball games, then reinstate Rose.
1
As a lifelong fan of the Astros, o so use to disappointment, knowing Rose bet on games may be the reason for keeping him out of Cooperstown. But, 34+ years later, some of us are still bitter about the 8-7 loss in Game 5 of the 1980, NCLS, in what was the greatest baseball playoff game ever played.
1
I have been a baseball and Philies fan(and sufferer) since 1950; the era of Richie Ashburn and Robin Roberts. Many cellar dwelling seasons passed until Pete Rose came to Philadelphia. His myriad skills and enthusiasm were the missing ingredient of a team that finally reached baseball's pinnacle and rewarded it's perennially gloomy fans, including me, with pride and the removal of loser from our collective psyches-what a parade. Per Mike Schmidt's advice, we took that day and savored it.
Pete and Mike's accomplishments on the field are in the record books. their stats, along with others, are in the Hall. But Pete Rose is not in the Hall and rightly should NOT be. From day 1 of his career he knew the cardinal rule and broke it, chronically! He got caught and even in the face of proof that he gambled on baseball, lied; everyone knew he was lying; could not allow himself to"man up". Later, even in confession he lacked humility.
Something about Pete Rose bothered me from the time he came into the league. Taking nothing away from his skills, his arrogance, swagger and hubris and more just rubbed me the wrong way. Still does.
No, Pete, you do not belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Your name should never even get on the ballot. Go back to eating, sleeping and drinking baseball 24/7. Keep on signing your name for whatever you can get for it, but make sure you pay the taxes.
It's time for you, and Mike, to shut up.
Pete and Mike's accomplishments on the field are in the record books. their stats, along with others, are in the Hall. But Pete Rose is not in the Hall and rightly should NOT be. From day 1 of his career he knew the cardinal rule and broke it, chronically! He got caught and even in the face of proof that he gambled on baseball, lied; everyone knew he was lying; could not allow himself to"man up". Later, even in confession he lacked humility.
Something about Pete Rose bothered me from the time he came into the league. Taking nothing away from his skills, his arrogance, swagger and hubris and more just rubbed me the wrong way. Still does.
No, Pete, you do not belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Your name should never even get on the ballot. Go back to eating, sleeping and drinking baseball 24/7. Keep on signing your name for whatever you can get for it, but make sure you pay the taxes.
It's time for you, and Mike, to shut up.
Baseball is more than a home, it is a way of life. Rose put that aside and tarnished not only himself, but the game. The HOF should keep the doors closed to him.
I never liked Johnny Hustle. But lots of ball players and other athletes have done far worse things than gamble, and have gotten away with it. Now unless Rose did gamble against his own team, I think his great ball playing deserves a chance to get him back into baseball. Despite the fact that he beat teams that I cheered for.
1
It's Charlie Hustle. Charlie Hustle.
1
Third baseman Ron Santo was passed over for the Baseball Hall of Fame for twenty years until 2012, two years after his death. At that time, Santo received 15 of the 16 possible votes and was the only one of the ten Golden Era Ballot candidates to be elected to the Hall of Fame by the Committee's first time voting. Maybe Pete Rose has to die before being considered into the Baseball Hall of Fame.
1
He paid his penance. Time to let it go. It's just a game.
2
If anyone believes that professional, college and high school athletes do not bet through surrogates or some other means they must be naive. It is human nature to gamble in general especially with highly competitive obsessive compulsive individuals.
1
There are two issues here. There was Rose's suspension, which he accepted and doesn't necessarily deserve lifting. Then there was the subsequent Hall of Fame ban, which was a dirty backroom deal which unilaterally changed the terms of Rose's punishment and prevented the Baseball Writers of America from considering him for election. The decent thing for MLB to do is either reinstate Rose or reverse the Hall of Fame rule, which MLB no doubt masterminded. (It affects only two others, notably Shoeless Joe Jackson.) Keeping Rose off the Hall of Fame ballot through a dirty trick was unconscionable.
2
Back in the day there was a saying, "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
I have absolutely no sympathy for the Roses, Bonds, Clemens, et al. of the baseball world.
I have absolutely no sympathy for the Roses, Bonds, Clemens, et al. of the baseball world.
Pete Rose should be in the Hall. Yes, the man is a gambling addict. Yes, he was incredibly stubborn and stupid while dealing with the allegations (they always say the cover-up just makes it worse). But he has paid a very high price and should be forgiven.
Before Pete Rose, Marvin Miller should be inducted. Modern day baseball would not be nearly as successful without the end of the reserve clause. Every player (and almost everyone making big money in baseball) should thank Marvin Miller by lobbying for him to be inducted.
Before Pete Rose, Marvin Miller should be inducted. Modern day baseball would not be nearly as successful without the end of the reserve clause. Every player (and almost everyone making big money in baseball) should thank Marvin Miller by lobbying for him to be inducted.
3
When someone is called down for violations and punished severely by a sports organization (others, too), there is usually much more to the story. The organization itself is usually trying to protect its image and project the idea that they are tough with cheating, even when they are not, even when they let it go on without taking definitive action. Severity can be a form of cover-up by another name.
It is impossible for me to believe that dozens, perhaps hundreds, of people in baseball didn't know that Pete Rose was out of control. The same applies to Lance Armstrong and cycling: there are many signs that almost everyone close to the sport knew, but the sponsoring organization was unwilling to put a stop to it. The attention brought by the stars of the sport, and the resulting money, was too good to pass up.
Pete Rose didn't shoot anyone. Neither did Lance Armstrong. The power of forgiveness and re-acceptance can be strong and good for all concerned, including the fans. Everyone will always know what those men did, even long after they are gone. Some degree of forgiveness would restore some nobility to all of us. (Yes, I am surprised myself to write these words, but I believe them.)
http://terryreport.com
It is impossible for me to believe that dozens, perhaps hundreds, of people in baseball didn't know that Pete Rose was out of control. The same applies to Lance Armstrong and cycling: there are many signs that almost everyone close to the sport knew, but the sponsoring organization was unwilling to put a stop to it. The attention brought by the stars of the sport, and the resulting money, was too good to pass up.
Pete Rose didn't shoot anyone. Neither did Lance Armstrong. The power of forgiveness and re-acceptance can be strong and good for all concerned, including the fans. Everyone will always know what those men did, even long after they are gone. Some degree of forgiveness would restore some nobility to all of us. (Yes, I am surprised myself to write these words, but I believe them.)
http://terryreport.com
3
Rose's biggest strength as a player was ultimately the reason for his downfall- hyper competiveness. I can recall him in the 70's running to 1st base after a walk, and thinking "man, this player is the epitome of giving a 110%" Unfortunately, I don't think after Pete Rose's playing days were over and he became manager of the Cincinnati Reds did he ever lose any of that extra bravado and win at all costs competiveness. Rose bet on baseball, and in my view he has paid his dues to major league baseball. Being banned from baseball for 25 years is punishment enough. He should be reinstated, and then let the veterans committee his peers and older decide if Rose should be in the Hall of Fame. Despite his 'big error' Pete Rose like the PED era players deserve to be in the Hall.
1
If Barry Bonds holds any official record, if Roger Clemmons holds a record, if ARod earns millions, then forgive Rose his sin. Anything else is pure hypocrisy
1
Rose should be in HOF as a player no doubt. Ultimately, the fans are the custodian of the Game - via support or voiced displeasure to ensure it is taken care of - not the Owners, not the Commissioner, not the sport writers (heaven forbid). I have tons more respect for former players' opinions and perspectives than any sports writer (votes for HOF... its a joke that HOF members don't vote for inductees ala' Heisman).
Regarding Rose's gambling and lifetime ban, its not a bad thing that Rose has been a living deterrent. The temptation and worse case fixing threat is still there. Rose knew the rule. He is frustrated for missing out on being paid if reinstated; direct sale of licensed jerseys, appearances, etc.
Bigger problem I have is with MLB hypocrisy, for they allow casinos to advertise at MLB ballparks and seen on broadcasts, casinos that are owned by casino companies that operate sports books (e.g., Harrahs). They should disassociate from doing business with any form of gambling.
Regarding Rose's gambling and lifetime ban, its not a bad thing that Rose has been a living deterrent. The temptation and worse case fixing threat is still there. Rose knew the rule. He is frustrated for missing out on being paid if reinstated; direct sale of licensed jerseys, appearances, etc.
Bigger problem I have is with MLB hypocrisy, for they allow casinos to advertise at MLB ballparks and seen on broadcasts, casinos that are owned by casino companies that operate sports books (e.g., Harrahs). They should disassociate from doing business with any form of gambling.
2
It's the one rule posted in every major league locker room. Don't gamble on baseball. Rose can't say he wasn't warned. He did the crime and should do the time -- a lifetime outside of MLB.
1
As a hardcore fan I am one of the first to give a thumbs down to PED users, including those who are contrite (e.g., Andy Pettitte). The distinction is that we can never be sure to what extent the drugs may have enhanced their performance and thereby distorted their respective records. Rose, however, achieved his status on sheer talent, grit and determination. This is what the HOF is supposed to recognize. Rose broke the rules as a manager and has been punished. However, after 27 years, I see no problem in granting him parole. Maybe they can put his plaque next to Cobb's for perspective. Then the purists can still shake there head at his gambling infractions, while apologists like me can say "well, at least he never left the field to go beat up a fan in the stands like that racist nutcase over there."
Opening day less than two weeks away - have a great season everyone!
Opening day less than two weeks away - have a great season everyone!
1
Integrity and ethics are important in life and in sports. MLB is one of the country's oldest institutions and maintaining the integrity of the game should be paramount; although the PED scandals unquestionably have tarnished the game's reputation and image. Being a professional athlete comes with a host of responsibilities, not just to team owners, manager and teammates, but to the public at large. That's why there's a morals clause in every MLB contract. The teams may be owned by a bunch of rich partners and corporations, but its heart and soul is in the public domain. Why not let the voting public, the fans, determine whether Pete should be reinstated, as opposed to the commissioner or the opinion of a bunch of scribes.
When married British pol John Profumo got entangled in a '60s sex scandal and had to resign, his career and reputation in ruins, he redeemed himself thru 40 years of charitable work (including cleaning dishes & bathrooms.) I'd be interested in learning what Rose has done to atone for breaking the cardinal rule of the game.
1
Pete Rose at the Hall of Fame initiation ceremony would be the most fascinating bit of MLB-related television in decades - incomparably more interesting than the modern, 3-hour-plus 9-inning snore-fest. Rose is a giant, kept out by a couple of sanctimonious, petty bureaucrats.
4
Rose has admitted his crime. Guilty! Next case!
Oh, you mean there are no next cases?
Oh, you mean there are no next cases?
I notice some of the commenters have suggested that there is a connection between the Rose case and the death of the Commissioner. In fact, Vincent has made this suggestion in vague terms more than once. This connection is ridiculous. Giamatii died of a long-standing cardiovascular disease that was years in the making. Blaming it on Rose is nonsense. It is similarly ridiculous to connect overt cheating of other players WHILE PLAYING THE GAME (steroid use) with the gambling that Rose did after he stopped playing. Those who claim to be protecting the purity of the game are in reality simply on a vendetta. Is Rose a likeable character? No. Did his play warrant induction in the Hall? Without question. Keeping him out after this length of time is over-kill.
1
Everyone talks about "integrity" in MLB as if it is some sacred mantra. There is no "integrity" in baseball now, nor has there ever been any in the sport. This is a sport that banned blacks from playing until 1947 (then took its sweet time to fully integrate all teams), enshrined the racist, despicable Ty Cobb into the Hall of Fame, glorified drunks and alcoholics into the Hall such as Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle (whom I grew up idolizing), allowed spit/balling and ball greasing cheaters like Gaylord Perry into the Hall, and looked the other way for decades as multitudes of players used all sorts of stimulants leading up to the commissioner-sanctioned steroid era.
Maybe the character played by Tom Hanks famously said "there is no crying in baseball". He could have equally said there is no integrity in major league baseball either.
Yes, Pete Rose exhibited despicable behavior as manager of the Reds. But if every HOF member was looked at as closely as Rose, how many could pass the "integrity" test. Wade Boggs was pushed out of car by some woman with whom he was allegedly having an affair with. Kirby Puckett was accused of many less than stellar things. Ferguson Jenkins had "issues" with drugs. I can go on and on. It is the rare Hall member who isn't without warts.
Let the voters finally vote on Rose as they do with the steroid cheats. Maybe he gets in, maybe he doesn't. But let's stop the holier than thou nonsense as it pertains to MLB.
Maybe the character played by Tom Hanks famously said "there is no crying in baseball". He could have equally said there is no integrity in major league baseball either.
Yes, Pete Rose exhibited despicable behavior as manager of the Reds. But if every HOF member was looked at as closely as Rose, how many could pass the "integrity" test. Wade Boggs was pushed out of car by some woman with whom he was allegedly having an affair with. Kirby Puckett was accused of many less than stellar things. Ferguson Jenkins had "issues" with drugs. I can go on and on. It is the rare Hall member who isn't without warts.
Let the voters finally vote on Rose as they do with the steroid cheats. Maybe he gets in, maybe he doesn't. But let's stop the holier than thou nonsense as it pertains to MLB.
3
This is MRS. If Pete Rose were of any other ethinic persuasion, he would be forgiven and admitted. But, he isn't. Today's players get reprieves for doing things far worse than betting on the games. Perhaps the rules should be rewritten to include sentencing guidelines, but those guidelines should be enforced to their maximum. I am not in favor of reinstating him to major league baseball. Age 73? That should not matter. He can run a betting ring right now if he wants because he is banned and therefore unaffiliated. He may have been a phenomenal player, but he disrespected the sport. His actions today stand as an example of what not to do, He needs to stay banned from baseball and the hall of fame. He earned that position by breaking the rules. Unfortunately, everyone following behind him needs to be held to that same standard, not only in baseball but in all other major league sports. None of the games are clean.
1
There is a solid case that a pattern of bets made or not made can send
a signal to other bettors and/or bookmakers, and I believe Rose should not have lied about his gambling when first confronted with it. In many ways, the cover-up or denial is worse than the initial rule-breaking.
Furthermore, the baseball commissioner banning Joe Jackson was, in retrospect, an incredible abuse of authority. Jackson played like the Hall-of-Famer he deserved to be in the 1919 Series. The evidence wasn't there to ban him -- and was there for at least two of the other "Black Sox."
This is a hard decision. I don't think Pete Rose ever failed to compete
to the best of his ability, and I don't think he took steroids or human growth hormone or anything else that gave him an unfair advantage. He never quit, he always did his best, in the dugout and on the field.
Bonds, Clemens, others who were plenty talented but had to try to go super-
bionic, they were cheating every other player on the field, both teammates and opponents, because they altered the balance of competition to give them something non-cheaters couldn't get. Their records are manufactured on the backs of those other players who didn't cheat, as Rose's record is not.
Rose's record doesn't need an asterisk. I say let him out on parole.
a signal to other bettors and/or bookmakers, and I believe Rose should not have lied about his gambling when first confronted with it. In many ways, the cover-up or denial is worse than the initial rule-breaking.
Furthermore, the baseball commissioner banning Joe Jackson was, in retrospect, an incredible abuse of authority. Jackson played like the Hall-of-Famer he deserved to be in the 1919 Series. The evidence wasn't there to ban him -- and was there for at least two of the other "Black Sox."
This is a hard decision. I don't think Pete Rose ever failed to compete
to the best of his ability, and I don't think he took steroids or human growth hormone or anything else that gave him an unfair advantage. He never quit, he always did his best, in the dugout and on the field.
Bonds, Clemens, others who were plenty talented but had to try to go super-
bionic, they were cheating every other player on the field, both teammates and opponents, because they altered the balance of competition to give them something non-cheaters couldn't get. Their records are manufactured on the backs of those other players who didn't cheat, as Rose's record is not.
Rose's record doesn't need an asterisk. I say let him out on parole.
1
Major League Baseball's Rule 21 (D) clearly states: "Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible." The Joint Drug Prevention & Treatment Program addresses the issue of PEDs and spells out the penalties for using them.
Clearly Major League Baseball treats the two issues very differently, as well it should. Use of performance enhancing drugs is a particularly egregious form of cheating to gain an unfair advantage over opponents - so to a lesser degree is stealing signs, throwing spit-balls & corking bats. Gambling can destroy the game, as it almost did following the 1919 Black Sox scandal. Comparing PEDs to gambling is apples to oranges; or to in the extreme, manslaughter to genocide.
Pete Rose cannot be reinstated for the reason Mr Vincent gave: Deterrent. Pete Rose is one of the best to ever play the game, but he did something so bad that he dishonored himself and had to be expelled for life. Bonds, Clemens, et.al. also dishonored themselves, but did not threaten the game in the same way.
If the disparity between the penalties for gambling & PEDs is the issue, Baseball should increase the penalties for PEDs, but it cannot decrease the penalty for gambling.
Clearly Major League Baseball treats the two issues very differently, as well it should. Use of performance enhancing drugs is a particularly egregious form of cheating to gain an unfair advantage over opponents - so to a lesser degree is stealing signs, throwing spit-balls & corking bats. Gambling can destroy the game, as it almost did following the 1919 Black Sox scandal. Comparing PEDs to gambling is apples to oranges; or to in the extreme, manslaughter to genocide.
Pete Rose cannot be reinstated for the reason Mr Vincent gave: Deterrent. Pete Rose is one of the best to ever play the game, but he did something so bad that he dishonored himself and had to be expelled for life. Bonds, Clemens, et.al. also dishonored themselves, but did not threaten the game in the same way.
If the disparity between the penalties for gambling & PEDs is the issue, Baseball should increase the penalties for PEDs, but it cannot decrease the penalty for gambling.
2
“The issue is the deterrent,” Vincent said. “The reason the deterrent works is that nobody has ever been let back.”
I think this depends on how you look at it. It didn't deter PEDS. It didn't deter pitchers who used foreign items to change the trajectory of their pitches, it didn't deter Sammy Sosa from using a corked bat. I am sure if I actually spent time researching the misconduct of MLB players since 1989, I could find many occurrences of indiscretions that this ban did not deter. People will say no one else has been charged with betting on baseball but that could only be because they didn't get caught or baseball didn't look. It's all subject I suppose.
My question to Pete Rose, who I am a fan of, is why do you want it so badly? Why do you want to be part of something that obviously wants no part of you? Where's your pride? If you get fired from a job that doesn't want you, would you work so hard to get that job back? Pete may just need to accept his fate here and try to live his life happy. He has been in turmoil with baseball since 1989, how long are you willing to fight with these people Pete, what do you really have to gain? Even if you are reinstated and elected to the Hall of Fame, it will forever be tainted and although 4256 is a HUGE number, which will never be broken by the way, it will always come in just below the line that says, "bet on baseball". Pete, is that the legacy you want? Some things are just now worth having....
I think this depends on how you look at it. It didn't deter PEDS. It didn't deter pitchers who used foreign items to change the trajectory of their pitches, it didn't deter Sammy Sosa from using a corked bat. I am sure if I actually spent time researching the misconduct of MLB players since 1989, I could find many occurrences of indiscretions that this ban did not deter. People will say no one else has been charged with betting on baseball but that could only be because they didn't get caught or baseball didn't look. It's all subject I suppose.
My question to Pete Rose, who I am a fan of, is why do you want it so badly? Why do you want to be part of something that obviously wants no part of you? Where's your pride? If you get fired from a job that doesn't want you, would you work so hard to get that job back? Pete may just need to accept his fate here and try to live his life happy. He has been in turmoil with baseball since 1989, how long are you willing to fight with these people Pete, what do you really have to gain? Even if you are reinstated and elected to the Hall of Fame, it will forever be tainted and although 4256 is a HUGE number, which will never be broken by the way, it will always come in just below the line that says, "bet on baseball". Pete, is that the legacy you want? Some things are just now worth having....
If Rose is reinstated, then you must reinstate Shoeless Joe Jackson and all the other Blacksox Scandle players who may or may not belong in the HOF
1
Charlie Hustle? More like Charlie Hot Dog.
He essentially ended another players career in a collision at the plate during an all star game if I remember correctly.
He essentially ended another players career in a collision at the plate during an all star game if I remember correctly.
3
I think when we love and admire someone so very much, we are especially hard on that person when he or she lets us down. The Phillies have always been my team win or lose and Pete Rose was a joy to watch. My son was born the year he came to Philadelphia and I still have the baby-sized World Series tee shirt from 1980. We enjoyed going to one game every year. If Mike Schmidt thinks he has done his time, that is good enough for me. Gambling addictions are very much like alcohol addictions and not something easily controlled without help. I hope the ban is lifted and Pete Rose can again give back to baseball. He should turn out to be an excellent example for other players-both for what to do as much as for what not to do.
Long ago, Major League Baseball turned gambling into a cardinal sin as a smokescreen for its own egregious policies on race and the reserve clause. Here's an organization that perpetuated a 70-year conspiracy to keep African-Americans out of the game. Here's an organization that created the Reserve Clause, a boldface violation of the 13th Amendment. And then from 1984-1987, every owner, league president, and the commissioner organized collusion against the players union, a conspiracy that essentially rigged the pennant race in both leagues.
All MLB's bluster about gambling is utter sanctimony.
All MLB's bluster about gambling is utter sanctimony.
2
When this comes up I always think: only Joe Jackson's ban should be reconsidered.
4
I am from Philadelphia and I was a Pete Rose fan since I was a kid. He should in the HOF. He is the all time hits leader and played the game with a reckless abandonment that is not seen in the game today. He has suffered enough for his actions. Enough is enough. Pete Rose is a Baseball Hall of Famer.
2
I completely disagree with Dallas Green. I think Rose would be a horrible ambassador for the game. He's always had a compulsive, self-centered personality and I don't think it's in his nature to be contrite or thoughtful.
The man has a right to make a living and I'm not sure of his personal circumstances, but did he need to do that horrible commercial for Sketcher? You know he'll cash in in every cheesy way imaginable if he's reinstated.
I also agree with Molitor. The guy broke a rule -- apparently hundreds of times -- that he knew would keep him out of the HoF if he were caught -- see Joe Jackson. He took a gamble that he could get away with it, and he lost. He should pay the penalty.
Rose's crime is different than A-Rod's or other PED policy violators. The penalties for abuse do not include banishment from baseball, as does gambling. I'd rather see a lifetime ban applied to PEDs users before I saw Rose reinstated.
The man has a right to make a living and I'm not sure of his personal circumstances, but did he need to do that horrible commercial for Sketcher? You know he'll cash in in every cheesy way imaginable if he's reinstated.
I also agree with Molitor. The guy broke a rule -- apparently hundreds of times -- that he knew would keep him out of the HoF if he were caught -- see Joe Jackson. He took a gamble that he could get away with it, and he lost. He should pay the penalty.
Rose's crime is different than A-Rod's or other PED policy violators. The penalties for abuse do not include banishment from baseball, as does gambling. I'd rather see a lifetime ban applied to PEDs users before I saw Rose reinstated.
1
I have been following baseball for almost fifty years. I remember Pete Rose quite well. He was never the best player on the field, but the hardest worker. He paid attention to the details on the field. He became a pretty good manager, because of his attention to the details. This is why he cannot ever go into the HOF. Whether it's an addiction or a disease is not relevant. If he wanted to gamble, he needed to quit baseball. Instead he chose to break the only rule that cannot be broken, so he expected to not get caught. He did. The discussion is over. He knew the risks, yet still jeopardized his relationship with the game he loves. Rose must never get in the Hall Of Fame. His actions show he does not deserve it. It's not about the numbers, people. He played for over 20 years, so of course he would have more hits than anyone. He played longer than anyone.
He withiut sin cast the first stone.
1
I'm not in favor of reinstating him, but if they do they better reinstate Shoeless Joe as well.
1
If baseball says no, do we revisit Ty Cobb's plaque? Is there a larger question about to what degree does character matter? The PED question really belongs in another chapter, though that door will not open anytime soon; nor should it.
A 'Lifetime Ban'. Once he's died maybe he'll be voted in posthumously, only time will tell.
1
Gambling is an addiction, and should be treated as a sickness. Punishment does not usually help. By all means, discourage young players from falling into the trap, and to that end threats of punishment may help, but how unyielding should we be? One commenter even compared Pete Rose to the Boston bomber - that is just ridiculous, not to mention insulting towards those who lost limbs or loved ones.
In my opinion he has already been punished enough for everyone to get the idea. The steroid users serve limited bans (when caught...), and players with alcohol or hard drug problems are pitied and helped. As someone else said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
In my opinion he has already been punished enough for everyone to get the idea. The steroid users serve limited bans (when caught...), and players with alcohol or hard drug problems are pitied and helped. As someone else said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
2
An article extensively quoting John Dowd has been recently published. Suggest Googling and reading. It shines a light on Rose and his offenses that I had never fully realized over these many years. I recently watched the movie Patton. His ego and arrogance was responsible for his tremendous success and his ultimate downfall. Same with Pete to a tee. Does he deserve "forgiveness" and reinstatement? It's sad to withhold that from him, but all those saying 'let he who is without sin ..' should read the Dowd report!
When Paul Hornugh was asked by the Commissioner if he had bet on his team, he admitted it. He accepted his punishment (one year suspension) and did not fight it, complain about it, or lie about it. Not so Pete. He went to Court (lost), then agreed to a ban that could be lifted later if he did not complain (he did complain), and then spent over a decade denying everything at every opportunity at every venue. I remember one occasion when he was asked if his legacy was diminished because he was not in the HOF. He said no, the HOF was diminished because He was not in it.. The lesson needed here is not just do not bet on baseball. It is also, if caught, don't deny it, complain about it, or fight it. Pete always said he played the game the way it is suppose to be played. This is how it should be played. Keep him out.
Although his sin was egregious, I think Mr. Rose has paid dearly for his mistakes. Prisoners are sometimes let out of prisons when they are old and in decline. Forgiving Rose should be a bit easier, and I believe it would ultimately be best for baseball as well as for Mr. Rose. His candor after his initial denials and his willingness to admit his mistakes and discuss them openly should factor into the Commissioner's decision. I don't think that a player looking at Mr. Rose's saga would be inclined to believe that baseball doesn't mean it when it forbids gambling on baseball. Mr. Rose has been through the wringer and been banned a very long time. I think the players get it.
Presidential pardons have been granted for less ! If Pete Rose had been convicted in a court of law, he would have served his sentence many times over by now, and been a free man to start over. It is ridiculous that something like this has to hang over his head for the balance of his life. He didn't do steroids ( like so many hundreds of other players in the last 10-15 years) which is far worse; Enough is enough; let the man be re-instated, resume his life in some professional baseball capacity, and do some good for the new generation of young players coming up the ranks. It's about time. This tedious self-righteousness of baseball's governing body is repeatedly tiresome and sickening ( Bud Selig was completely ineffectual in this regard). It's time for some compassion. Pete Rose was, bottom line, a great ball player--which everyone seems to be forgetting. He still, no doubt, has a great deal to offer, and shouldn't be persecuted forever for having made one bad mistake.
1
If you gamble on baseball, is there a "run spread" like the point spreads in football and basketball? Rose may have bet on the Reds only to win, but if the spread was, say, two runs, couldn't a financial interest in keeping the team from exceeding that spread be seen as encouraging him to weaken the team on that day, compromising its ability to win the game at all?
Grouping together Pete Rose, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens is rather specious, since only Mr. Rose is officially banned for breaking the ironclad rule about gambling on his own games. Messrs. Bonds and Clemens are simply the victims of some 'holier than thou' baseball writers who are trying to enforce a purity that the game never had to begin with.
2
Rose is a sacrificial lamb for all of the Hall of Famers the league was afraid to punish. One of the greatest to ever play the game, Mickey Mantle, played drunk. We had pitcher throw a no hitter on LSD. I won't even get into performance drugs. The bottom line is that Rose played every game like it was his last, sacrificing his body for that grounder, line drive or extra base. If he was betting on games, he didn't play like he was betting on the opposing team.
90% of this sanction was two clashing personalities, betting was a side issue. The Commish and his ego had more power; Pete never had a chance.
90% of this sanction was two clashing personalities, betting was a side issue. The Commish and his ego had more power; Pete never had a chance.
1
We will forgive him when he is dead and then he will be voted into Cooperstown -- but only then! Say it ain't so, Pete! But it WAS so and, therefore, he must now sleep the dreamless sleep of the unenshrined as long as the moon shines, the rain falls and the grass grows!
I am in the Cincinnati Reds home area. I could be okay with Pete Rose being reinstated to baseball eligibility. But only if another player from years ago can be reinstated, as well. Pete Rose not only gambled while playing and managing, he gambled on baseball, on games his own team was involved in. If he is reinstated after that egregious set of errors, then Shoeless Joe Jackson, who never gambled on any game, should be reinstated too. Yes, Jackson helped throw a game which made the Reds winners of a World Series. He was an uneducated, poorly paid man who accepted money to do what someone else told him he should do. And was punished severely for it. He never was eligible for Hall of Fame election. Pete Rose would be a shoe-in for eligibility if reinstated, but he acted on his own in violation of baseball rules. If fairness for Pete is wanted, then let's have a minimal fairness for Shoeless Joe.
I disagree with your contention that Joe Jackson and Pete Rose are comparable cases. Although he potentially besmirched the game by betting on i baseball, Rose didn't throw a game like Jackson. Rose broke a rule instituted to ensure the integrity of the game, but Jackson directly assaulted the game's validity. I can see forgiving Rose but not Jackson.
NOTE: The Ban is not keeping Rose out of the Hall Of Fame. The HOF is keeping Rose out of the HOF.
Rose accepted the MLB Ban in 1989 because at that time it did not prevent his election to the Hall Of Fame.
When he pointed this out to sportwriters, the HOF Board Members became enraged.
The HOF Board convened a special meeting of the HOF Rules Committee and passed a new rule specifically designed to keep Rose out of the HOF.
The rule being that no one who is on the MLB Banned List can have their name appear on a HOF voter ballot.
The HOF recently did the same thing to keep PED users out of the HOF by reducing the number of years of HOF eligibility from 15 years to 10 years.
Rose accepted the MLB Ban in 1989 because at that time it did not prevent his election to the Hall Of Fame.
When he pointed this out to sportwriters, the HOF Board Members became enraged.
The HOF Board convened a special meeting of the HOF Rules Committee and passed a new rule specifically designed to keep Rose out of the HOF.
The rule being that no one who is on the MLB Banned List can have their name appear on a HOF voter ballot.
The HOF recently did the same thing to keep PED users out of the HOF by reducing the number of years of HOF eligibility from 15 years to 10 years.
OK. Don't reinstate him. Let the hall open a wing for great players with notably bad behavior record: The disgraced Player wing. Elect shoeless Joe, Pete, and all the chemical enhancers to that wing and put their errors right out in public. Their play is recognized but their behavior is not rewarded.
In criminal law "malum prohibitum" (wrong because prohibited) is distinguished from "malum in se" (evil in itself).
As far as the core integrity of the game is concerned, Rose has committed "malum in se" for which there can be no absolution.
As far as the core integrity of the game is concerned, Rose has committed "malum in se" for which there can be no absolution.
No, you have conflated the terms in your application of them. Betting on baseball is not inherently evil. It is prohibited because of its potential to harm the game if players engage in such betting. So, it is wrong because it is prohibited. There are good reasons why it is forbidden, but it is not malum in se.
1
If you're going to let in Pete Rose, and I hope they don't; then you should also let in Shoeless Joe Jackson, who's been banned from baseball since 1920. He was a better hitter than Rose (he hit over .400 as a rookie), and probably a better fielder. He also never admitted to throwing the 1919 World Series and was acquitted by a jury, along with 7 other players. He also hit .375 for that Series. My suggestion is simple: Make Shoeless Joe eligible for consideration by the Veterans Committee next year, 65 years after his death. Given that he still has the 3rd highest lifetime batting average and is considered in the top 50 players of all time, he'd be a cinch to be admitted. Then, 65 years after Rose dies, you can let him in.
1
I saw Pete Rose play. He was great. Mere statistics can not convey his will to win. Yet, if Bob Manfred reinstates Rose and he is elected to the Hall of Fame, an emphasis on his playing abilities -- at the expense of three of the listed criteria -- will be required. In that case, to offset the ensuing stir, voters would be well served to recall the words of the legendary baseball journalist Red Smith regarding another gifted player-manager (who also happened to wear the number 14) still awaiting enshrinement. "If votes are based, as the rule says, on the player's integrity, sportsmanship, and character, Gil Hodges will ride in. Those words were coined for him."
1
If one can accept the fact that gambling can be an addiction, then Pete had that addiction and he is being kept out of the Hall of Fame because of a mental illness. And certainly of Bonds, Sosa, ARod et al are ever elected to the H of F, Roses' omission will be a travesty.
When Derek Jeter broke into the top 10 in career hits, I don't think that any baseball fan could deny being aware of Pete Rose's record. He will always be the elephant in the room.
It's a shame that he be offered Hall of Fame recognition posthumously, but I'm afraid that is his fate. He should try to take some comfort in that.
It's a shame that he be offered Hall of Fame recognition posthumously, but I'm afraid that is his fate. He should try to take some comfort in that.
Reinstatement means a lot of money for Pete Rose, and he is betting on that right now.
We can debate the pros and cons of reinstating Rose (I'm in favor of it) until the cows come home. Here's something else to think about:
In the world of sports collectibles, Rose's rookie baseball card from the 1963 Topps set continues to climb in value, with a near mint (7 out of 10) copy selling for about $1,500 recently and Near Mint To Mint (8 out of 10) copies going for well over $3,000. That's substantially more than the Mickey Mantle card from the same set.
Many of his early Topps cards from 1964 through 1969 are also climbing in price, as are other pieces of 1960s Rose memorabilia (autographed balls and photos, etc.)
Maybe that tells you all you need to know about how popular Rose continues to be with baseball fans?
In the world of sports collectibles, Rose's rookie baseball card from the 1963 Topps set continues to climb in value, with a near mint (7 out of 10) copy selling for about $1,500 recently and Near Mint To Mint (8 out of 10) copies going for well over $3,000. That's substantially more than the Mickey Mantle card from the same set.
Many of his early Topps cards from 1964 through 1969 are also climbing in price, as are other pieces of 1960s Rose memorabilia (autographed balls and photos, etc.)
Maybe that tells you all you need to know about how popular Rose continues to be with baseball fans?
1
I think, in short, that he should be put on the ballot and let the baseball writers decide by a vote. If he doesn't get in, so be it, but he deserves a jury of his peers.
1
Baseball writers are not his peers. If fellow Baseball players were the deciding committee, then Rose would've been in the Hall years ago.
1
Pete Rose knew the consequences if he was caught betting on the Reds. He went ahead and did it anyway. Mr. Schmidt, you are free to forgive him, if you feel his actions have earned him repentance. He should not be allowed into the Hall. Okay, he could be on a list of all-time hit leaders (after all, his betting, as far as we know, came after his playing days), but the rules should not be changed. Betting on the games undermines their integrity and performance on the filed should not outweigh the consequences.
Pete Rose associated with gamblers and gambled on baseball. Baseball could not survive if the perception was that gamblers could influence the outcome of games. Pete Rose is quite rightly banned from baseball and should be forgotten.
Let Rose in AFTER Shoeless Joe Jackson. Joe Jacksson was a great, five tool player who was wrongly implicated in a scheme his teammates cooked up. Rose is an admitted gambler. Jackson's bust belongs in the Hall before Rose gets on the ballot.
Never. Never for him or Shoeless Joe or any of the juicers. I remain offended by his conduct and more offended by his remorseless application.
As a baseball fan since the late 50's, I have followed the career of Mr. Rose. I would suggest that he be allowed on the ballot for the playing days and his performance as a player. He had a sickness, gambling is a sickness. But, I am unaware of any gambling on baseball games during his playing years. His performance on the diamond is and was deserving of some forgiveness. I suspect that if one were to dive into the personal, financial and business lives of the baseball commissioners you would find transgressions that if fully divulged would not seem to taste good. Forgive.
2
The transgressions of the player known as "Charlie Hustle" were quite severe, but relatively minor in their impact on the game. Baseball is an unfair sport however, especially when it comes to honoring some of its best players.
Case in point: Dick Allen. One of the best hitters in baseball during a time the game was dominated by pitching and arguably the best clutch hitter ever. Snubbed repeatedly for the HoF reasons that are far from clear. At least there is something reasonably substantive behind Rose's ineligibility.
Case in point: Dick Allen. One of the best hitters in baseball during a time the game was dominated by pitching and arguably the best clutch hitter ever. Snubbed repeatedly for the HoF reasons that are far from clear. At least there is something reasonably substantive behind Rose's ineligibility.
If Pete is forthright and apologetic all the remaining days of his life, maybe - and that's a big maybe - ten years after death he should be admitted into Cooperstown, but not one moment before.
In this country even murderers are afforded 2nd chances. Pete Rose suffered enough. Allow the younger generation who did not see him play, the opportunity to see baseball greatness in its purest form and not aided by artificial substances. Put him in the hall and recognize Rose for his accomplishments on the field.
1
The only question is: would you also make an exception to the rule in the case of a player with two years playing time, a career .230 average and 50 MLB hits, who committed an identical infraction to that of Rose? If the answer is no, then Rose must be kept out.
There are exhibits in the HOF about Rose and his playing records. What is not there is the plaque in the big hallway. Rose is the only controversial guy who voluntarily and with lawyer representation negotiated a place on the permanently ineligible list to avoid a verdict/findings on what he did. No one else - not the PED guys, not guys like Orlando Cepeda, not the Black Sox - ever did that. He made his own deal and status. Baseball imposed nothing on him.
He transgressed not only as a gambling player, but as a manager affecting decisions about who plays. And he went to jail for tax evasion for baseball related stuff, selling memorabilia etc. He's the only controversial guy you can say that about.
When the news of the Dowd report first came out, I shed tears reading about it because Rose was such a great player - and said to myself 'Give it up, Pete, they gotcha'. Well, he didn't for a long time. If he had just 'fessed up then and begged for forgiveness, he'd probably have a plaque now.
Finally, would there be anybody more obnoxious and self-congratulating than Rose if he got in? The distasteful shows he puts on to sell stuff in Cooperstown every year at HOF time give you a hint of what it would be like.
So, perhaps he'll get in - the American public loves to give second chances - IMHO it should be posthumous. Mean spirited by me? Maybe, but he earned it.
He transgressed not only as a gambling player, but as a manager affecting decisions about who plays. And he went to jail for tax evasion for baseball related stuff, selling memorabilia etc. He's the only controversial guy you can say that about.
When the news of the Dowd report first came out, I shed tears reading about it because Rose was such a great player - and said to myself 'Give it up, Pete, they gotcha'. Well, he didn't for a long time. If he had just 'fessed up then and begged for forgiveness, he'd probably have a plaque now.
Finally, would there be anybody more obnoxious and self-congratulating than Rose if he got in? The distasteful shows he puts on to sell stuff in Cooperstown every year at HOF time give you a hint of what it would be like.
So, perhaps he'll get in - the American public loves to give second chances - IMHO it should be posthumous. Mean spirited by me? Maybe, but he earned it.
1
Let me get this straight - Ty Cobb qualifies but Pete Rose doesn't? Ridiculous.
The Hal of Fame should celebrate superior players. If Rose isn't in it, the whole thing is a joke.
The Hal of Fame should celebrate superior players. If Rose isn't in it, the whole thing is a joke.
2
What applies to one should apply to all - if we're to ban Rose, the same thing should apply to all of the performance-enhancing drug users, wife-beaters, painkiller addicts, and, on down to those who ignore parking tickets. Where do we draw the line?
With similar thoughts to some others who've commented here, why don't we just take this away from the sportswriters and let the public (whomever is sufficiently concerned) vote - that will show the feelings on the matter held by the very population for which the game is supposed to be played.
With similar thoughts to some others who've commented here, why don't we just take this away from the sportswriters and let the public (whomever is sufficiently concerned) vote - that will show the feelings on the matter held by the very population for which the game is supposed to be played.
The HOF and MLB are separate organizations. If those who governed the HOF allowed Pete Rose be a candidate, there is not much that Rob Manfred could do about it. However, my guess is that not a high enough percentage of the the writers would vote for him (the same as with McGwire, Palmeiro, Sosa, Bonds, Clemens - and will be with A-Rod). Probably Rose would have a good chance with the veterans, because it seems that many older players have a different view on his situation than MLB execs and writers.
1
I recall reading a story many years ago that said the Commissioner halted the investigation of Pete Rose when the investigator thought Rose also sold drugs in the clubhouse. Perhaps there is more to baseballs ban than the public knows. Betting or drug selling, which is worse. The cloud over Pete Rose persists despite his greatness on the field.
2
I love Pete Rose. I love his spunky attitude, his tenacity, and his ability to poke fun at himself in TV commercials about not being allowed into the hall, not even at home. In the worst way I wish Pete Rose could be in the Hall of Fame. However, he did admit to the one act that has banned him for life. Cognitively I understand why he was banned, but there is an emotionally conflict with the rationale baseball commissioners have used and still stand by. Gambling has been diagnosed as a disease; but arguably the same has been said for drug abuse. However, a double standard exists in which the baseball gods offer forgiveness and treatment to players who test positive for drugs, but ban other players for life from playing and from the Hall of Fame for gambling (Pete Rose) and/or the accusation of gambling (“Shoeless” Joe Jackson). Shouldn’t baseball commissioners either play by all of the rules all of the time, or none of the rules none of the time? Their decisions would be more palatable if they were at least consistent.
2
Rose would have been inducted long ago if he had come clean early on. But that's not his makeup. He's been shown to be an arrogant and self absorbed womanizer, terrible parent and just a downright disgusting human being. Would a more humble person been forgiven by now? Of course. Should Pete Rose? Never.
1
Right on!
It's not surprising that in the United States of Sentimentality there are those dewy-eyed individuals who think "enough is enough, let Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame." Pete Rose's passion for the game of baseball has never been questioned. Unfortunately, for him and his supporters, it has nothing to do with why he is barred from the game. Pete Rose or Joe Schmo, here is the pertinent clause in Rule 21, d: Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible. "Permanently ineligible."
2
Long ago, Major League Baseball turned gambling into a cardinal sin as a smokescreen for its own egregious policies on race and the reserve clause. Here's an organization that perpetuated a 70-year conspiracy to keep African-Americans out of the game. Here's an organization that created the Reserve Clause, a boldface violation of the 13th Amendment. And then from 1984-1987, every owner, league president, and the commissioner organized collusion against the players union, a conspiracy that essentially rigged the pennant race in both leagues.
All MLB's bluster about gambling is utter sanctimony.
All MLB's bluster about gambling is utter sanctimony.
3
MLB runs MLB Fantasy Baseball. which like all the fantasy leagues, exists to facilitate gambling. Yes, the rule has a purpose, but it's The Bookie's Employment Handbook, Rule No. 7.2, not the Eleventh Commandment.
1
"He’ll look at players and say, ‘I like this guy,’ or ‘This guy’s a dog.’" No, Pete, you are the dog. I take that back -- it's demeaning to dogs.
Unfortunately, Pete Rose voided his eligibility for membership in the Hall of Fame.
Just as several batters who set records because they took steroids -- they, too, voided their eligibility to be listed as record-setters.
Either baseball supports the quality of the game, or it goes for the money-grubbing lowest denominator.
Can't have both and I personally refuse to recognize invalid stats.
Baseball needs to resupport its previous integrity.
That's my 2-cents, as they say.
Just as several batters who set records because they took steroids -- they, too, voided their eligibility to be listed as record-setters.
Either baseball supports the quality of the game, or it goes for the money-grubbing lowest denominator.
Can't have both and I personally refuse to recognize invalid stats.
Baseball needs to resupport its previous integrity.
That's my 2-cents, as they say.
2
My classmate, Bart Giamatti kicked Pete out of baseball during his brief reign as comish. Cost Bart dearly. He over ate, over smoked and had cardiac arrest.
1
I'm torn.
I believe Rose belongs in the a Hall of Fame for his accomplishments on the field. Those accomplishments took place before he bet on baseball. But I also feel that the lifetime ban from the game is just. It's not so much the act of betting that bothers me; it's the denial and lies that followed those acts. Not a good example to set for kids or adults.
I believe Rose belongs in the a Hall of Fame for his accomplishments on the field. Those accomplishments took place before he bet on baseball. But I also feel that the lifetime ban from the game is just. It's not so much the act of betting that bothers me; it's the denial and lies that followed those acts. Not a good example to set for kids or adults.
8
Rose's accomplishments are there in Cooperstown, look at the lists of leaders in categories, the rosters of WS and pennant winners, Pete Rose is on all of them. Why give him a plaque as a standout individual when his most notable accomplishment is that ban for cheating?
I think Pete Roses' biggest problem has been Pete Rose. His out of control ego and sense of entitlement has prohibited him from making a serious Act of Contrition. He is an epic paradox, the same competitive spirit and tenacity to win and thrive is his own worst enemy. The problem is that it should not stop you form reading "banned for life" in reference to betting on your own team. And to those who said he only bet on them to win, I asked what about the days he didn't bet on them? Plus, his knowledge as manager to make moves and pitching changes was compromised. A sad American sports tragedy.
4
I loved watching Pete Rose play. He played like nothing else mattered. You had to admire his intensity at bat running out every play even when he when he knew he was going to be thrown out. You judge a player on how he played the game. He deserves to be reinstated. Today's players can learn a lot from him. We will never know how many players got away with betting on games just like we will never know how many players use PED's. Judge him as a player that's what counts. He was a credit to the game.
4
The reason for the prohibition on gambling in baseball is because the Chicago Black Sox threw the 1919 World Series. Pete Rose never bet on the Reds to lose. Thus, his is an entirely different case. The suggestion that Rose was tacitly betting on the Reds to lose on days when he did not bet suffers from only one flaw: the Dowd Report. Per the Report, the Reds were 12-3 in games when Rose did not bet. Thus, Rose’s betting clearly did not compromise the integrity of baseball. The amorphous suggestion that Rose managed differently when he bet on the Reds to win is silly. Rose managed to win every game, just like he played to win every game. This doesn't justify exclusion.
Does Rose’s lying and denying for years that he bet on baseball justify the lifetime ban? Consider an analogous case. If ‘that woman’ had taken her dress to the cleaners, Bill Clinton would still be lying. The fact that he stopped after the DNA evidence came in makes him smarter than Rose, not a better person. In America, do we honestly want to say that the ethical bar is higher for baseball’s HOF than for the office of President?
Let's be clear: Pete Rose is an idiot, big enough for the village of New York. But he did not compromise the integrity of baseball. Rob Manfred should take the time to fairly judge the facts.
Does Rose’s lying and denying for years that he bet on baseball justify the lifetime ban? Consider an analogous case. If ‘that woman’ had taken her dress to the cleaners, Bill Clinton would still be lying. The fact that he stopped after the DNA evidence came in makes him smarter than Rose, not a better person. In America, do we honestly want to say that the ethical bar is higher for baseball’s HOF than for the office of President?
Let's be clear: Pete Rose is an idiot, big enough for the village of New York. But he did not compromise the integrity of baseball. Rob Manfred should take the time to fairly judge the facts.
2
Reinstate Pet Rose only AFTER "Shoe-less" Joe Jackson is reinstated!
4
Here's your difference between PED cheating and gambling:
When A-Rod and Giambi used PEDs, it did not affect Jeter and Posada's playing ability.
When Rose managed with bets down on a Reds game, that puts the team's long-term prospects at risk, not to mention the health of individual players. He ruined the career of Mario Soto, who was on his way to a 200+ win career until Rose took over in '84 and started using him on short rest...and not even knuckleballers were working on short rest as often as Soto. His arm was shot by September of '85 and he was out of baseball by 31.
Imagine, New York fans, if Joe Torre had done that to Andy Pettitte or Gil Hodges had done it to Tom Seaver. You'd be baying for blood.
When A-Rod and Giambi used PEDs, it did not affect Jeter and Posada's playing ability.
When Rose managed with bets down on a Reds game, that puts the team's long-term prospects at risk, not to mention the health of individual players. He ruined the career of Mario Soto, who was on his way to a 200+ win career until Rose took over in '84 and started using him on short rest...and not even knuckleballers were working on short rest as often as Soto. His arm was shot by September of '85 and he was out of baseball by 31.
Imagine, New York fans, if Joe Torre had done that to Andy Pettitte or Gil Hodges had done it to Tom Seaver. You'd be baying for blood.
1
OK, keep Pete and the PED users out. But don't call it the "Hall of Fame", then. Call it the "Hall of Popularity" or the "Hall of Compliance". Because there's no question that Pete Rose was the greatest hitter who ever lived. No question the Bonds and Clemens were among the greatest at their specialties. So long as these players' accomplishments remain unrecognized, then everyone else in the Hall is there with an asterisk. And the asterisk says "Never caught cheating." (Except for Gaylord Perry, who was a notorious cheater, but a popular guy.)
1
Rules are rules. Gambling almost ruined baseball and Pete made the choice. Baseball is black or white and there is no grey area when it comes to gambling by players. Did betting influence his play? We will never really know that's why it's not subjective but a rule. Baseball my be the last hope of a governing body standing tall when it comes to liars and cheaters, or will it? It's certainly acceptable for liars to run our country. I vote NO. Sorry A-Rod I'd vote no on you too.
3
I used to agree with baseball's lifetime ban on Pete Rose, but I've come to think of that ban as not unlike the death penalty, which I am against. Let him back in, but keep him on probation for a while:
Require him to spend a considerable amount of his time speaking about his downfall and the dangers of gambling. And MLB should have a permanent display right next to his hall of fame plaque about what he did and why it was wrong.
We forgive people guilty of manslaughter and release them from prison. Really now, is Pete Rose's crime more heinous than the taking of a life?
Require him to spend a considerable amount of his time speaking about his downfall and the dangers of gambling. And MLB should have a permanent display right next to his hall of fame plaque about what he did and why it was wrong.
We forgive people guilty of manslaughter and release them from prison. Really now, is Pete Rose's crime more heinous than the taking of a life?
3
No it is not more heinous than the taking of a life. But the lifetime ban is certainly not comparable to the death penalty.
If you let the juicers like A Rod stay in baseball than you should let Pete Rose back in and yes he belongs in the Hall of Fame but as a player not as a manager.
4
Apples to oranges. Though I don't have an issue with making PEDs a banishable offense, it's not. A player who violates a PED policy understands what penalties he faces and should have to live with those consequences should he be caught -- no exceptions. Rose knew that the penalty for being caught gambling was lifetime banishment. He should pay the penalty -- no exceptions.
In the end, at least Rose is a sympathetic character (not by me, but apparently others.) A-Rod's fate, I believe is worse. Baseball and baseball writers will never have anything to do with him. Besides the inevitable tell-all book, the only publicity Arod is going to get after he retires will be his obituary.
In the end, at least Rose is a sympathetic character (not by me, but apparently others.) A-Rod's fate, I believe is worse. Baseball and baseball writers will never have anything to do with him. Besides the inevitable tell-all book, the only publicity Arod is going to get after he retires will be his obituary.
The third paragraph of the article "....the agreement Rose had signed under Commissioner Bart Giamatti...." speaks volumes. Rose SIGNED an agreement banning himself from the eligibility list. If I rememeber correctly, the agreement banned Rose for life, but MLB could not disclose the findings of the Dowd report. Afterward, despite the agreement that he signed, Pete Rose could be seen anywhere and everywhere denying that he had bet on baseball games. After years of that approach not being successful, he disclosed in a book that he had bet on Red's games. Great ballplayer - never saw him not give his all on a baseball diamond - but he does not deserve Hall of Fame induction.
4
Rose's "confession" was just another disingenuous try at reinstatement. We didn't, and shouldn't, fall for it.
I could see dropping the rule forbidding election to the Hall in Mr. Rose's case on one condition: his plaque would have no mention of stats, or even his team, but would read only:
Pete Rose:
Disgraced himself
and
Major League Baseball
by betting
on games he managed.
THAT is his legacy, and THAT is all that he can teach kids and players.
I could see dropping the rule forbidding election to the Hall in Mr. Rose's case on one condition: his plaque would have no mention of stats, or even his team, but would read only:
Pete Rose:
Disgraced himself
and
Major League Baseball
by betting
on games he managed.
THAT is his legacy, and THAT is all that he can teach kids and players.
1
Many people just don't get it. Pete Rose didn't just cheat, he made the entire game questionable. He was a one man Black Sox scandal. If he had continued baseball would have been as honest as wrestling and there would have been no reason to watch the game.
PED users juiced their numbers. They were, and are, individual frauds but the game itself remains in tact. Fixing games is in a different dimension. When you sell the game you lose everything.
Pete Rose stinks. He stinks as a person and he stinks as a role model. He even stinks as a player, despite his remarkable tools. He tried to destroy the game that fed him. That stinks.
If Roses dishonesty is white washed and he is allowed into the Hall of Fame he will still stink. The odor will go with him and will permeate the Hall and the game of baseball. He will do what he tried to do from the start. He will destroy baseball, or what's left of it.
PED users juiced their numbers. They were, and are, individual frauds but the game itself remains in tact. Fixing games is in a different dimension. When you sell the game you lose everything.
Pete Rose stinks. He stinks as a person and he stinks as a role model. He even stinks as a player, despite his remarkable tools. He tried to destroy the game that fed him. That stinks.
If Roses dishonesty is white washed and he is allowed into the Hall of Fame he will still stink. The odor will go with him and will permeate the Hall and the game of baseball. He will do what he tried to do from the start. He will destroy baseball, or what's left of it.
3
If Rose had bet on the Reds to lose, even one time I would have no second thought to him being banished for life and never being open to discussion. That is not the case as he bet on them to WIN. This has become past stupid, egotistical and hypocritical. Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame
3
This articles treats the HOF as an institution created by necessity and governed by a legitimate need to identify the best professional baseball players. The HOF is a private concern promoting a privately run business yielding profits based on a game. I appreciate the HOF insofar as it promotes our culteral enjoyment of diversion and -more important- healthy activity. Baseball and the HOF have given me places to take my son, talk with siblings and friends and debates strategy. Those who argue "fairness" and point to numbers miss the point. Do I want to tell me son Rose cannot be in the HOF because he did something truly wrong? Or do I want to tell my son Rose must be in the HOF because he had better numbers?
1
We forgive so many for far worse. Let Pete rose back in baseball.
3
Just curious why no one talks about his gambling addiction as a form of mental illness. Gambling addiction *is* treated like a mental illness elsewhere. Why is it treated like a moral failing in baseball? It is clear that Rose had a serious gambling addiction, at least based on what I have read about the extent of his betting.
4
To me the lifetime ban should be exactly that: keep Rose away from any official contact with MLB while he's alive. But as soon as he dies elect him posthumously to the Hall of Fame.
2
Pete Rose’s Statistics: 4,256 Hits and a Big Error? What nonsense. His statistics have multiple errors daily not 'a Big Error.'
Since Rose has been barred for life, why not consider him for the Hall of Fame posthumously?
3
To Times Readers:
In the Pete Rose case, there are too many "yeah, but" factors. ...he only bet on his team to win. ...he finally admitted it after lying for many years. ...he's suffered enough. ...he didn't do it all the time. ...so many hits. Etc.
He gambled on baseball. He's out, he's out. Stop crying about it.
Submitted by ROGER LATZGO www.rogerlatzgo.com Germansville PA
In the Pete Rose case, there are too many "yeah, but" factors. ...he only bet on his team to win. ...he finally admitted it after lying for many years. ...he's suffered enough. ...he didn't do it all the time. ...so many hits. Etc.
He gambled on baseball. He's out, he's out. Stop crying about it.
Submitted by ROGER LATZGO www.rogerlatzgo.com Germansville PA
1
Dear Mr. Schmidt,
Forgiving is understandable.
Bestowing a Hall of Fame honor on Pete would be a blight on our national past time. His baseball accomplishments can be appreciated along-side all the notoriety his garnered in cheating on the game and its fans. My goodness, Pete has already made his fame and fortune, don't you think? Accept it and move on to those who respect the game.
Forgiving is understandable.
Bestowing a Hall of Fame honor on Pete would be a blight on our national past time. His baseball accomplishments can be appreciated along-side all the notoriety his garnered in cheating on the game and its fans. My goodness, Pete has already made his fame and fortune, don't you think? Accept it and move on to those who respect the game.
1
Why not ask Ray Fosse, remember him? In the 1970 All-Star game, Rose bowled over Fosse at the plate, he was never the same. Just trying to win the game said Rose, an exhibition game. The game wasn't and is still probably not clean of PEDS but gambling seems to have been struck down. Want to keep it that way? Don't let Rose near the game. Great as he was, he's a toxic pariah.
If you go to the HOF, you will see that the actual "hall" is a fairly small room (compared to the size of the building) consisting of nothing more than alcoves with small plaques bearing almost unrecognizable likenesses of the players elected to the HOF.
The rest of building is a museum, and Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Alex Rodrequez, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire et al are all over the place: statistics, mementos and so on. These players have not been wiped from the history at all.
It seems the fans want it both ways - they want the game to be "pure" but don't want players to have to pay the consequences when caught.
My only memory of Pete Rose is his ending the career of catcher Ray Fosse in an All Star game (1970? 1971?). The man hung on eight years past his prime.
The rest of building is a museum, and Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Alex Rodrequez, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire et al are all over the place: statistics, mementos and so on. These players have not been wiped from the history at all.
It seems the fans want it both ways - they want the game to be "pure" but don't want players to have to pay the consequences when caught.
My only memory of Pete Rose is his ending the career of catcher Ray Fosse in an All Star game (1970? 1971?). The man hung on eight years past his prime.
I find it interesting that so many people comment on Mr. Rose's "actions". My memory is that he accepted a life-time ban on the condition that the evidence against him never be made public. If my memory is correct then, with few exceptions, nobody knows what his "actions" were. Nobody can weigh his infractions against those who used PEDs or against the players who respected the rules and the sport. We can only guess.
For decades, we've heard arguments from Mr. Rose, his representatives and supporters that he should be reinstated, but we've never heard the other side. What did he actually do that led him to accept a life-time ban?
We know for sure that Mr. Rose did two things. 1- He accepted (negotiated?) a life-time ban on the grounds that the evidence against him is kept secret. 2- He has spent the rest of his life since fighting against the ban he agreed to.
For decades, we've heard arguments from Mr. Rose, his representatives and supporters that he should be reinstated, but we've never heard the other side. What did he actually do that led him to accept a life-time ban?
We know for sure that Mr. Rose did two things. 1- He accepted (negotiated?) a life-time ban on the grounds that the evidence against him is kept secret. 2- He has spent the rest of his life since fighting against the ban he agreed to.
1
Ok so Charlie Hustle cheated, but A-Rod and the other multitude of PED users didn't? PEDs give an unfair advantage to a particular player, how is that not throwing a game in a sense? I grew up watching Pete Rose, yep he was wrong, but Bart Giamotti's personal vendetta has stood for way too long. Cooperstown I say! Let the man in, or line the cheaters up one and all and issue the same punishment. Start with A-Rod, an unrepentant cheat, and a liar.
2
I am just curious if society placed this same values on politicians, how many elected officials would there actually be in public office?
1
What makes Rose, or those who used performance enhancing drugs, any better than the Black Sox? They should all be excluded. You want a scoundrels hall of fame? Put them there.
It's still the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Shame. Statistics do not outweigh character.
Rose and his advocates (of which I am one) should be advocating his case to the Hall of Fame's board, not the commissioner. The way for Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame is for the institution to reverse (or allow an exception to) its rule saying "anyone on the permanently ineligible list was also barred from the Hall." That's where the push should be, as the commissioner has no incentive to change the rule and essentially soften the league's stance on gambling by players--especially with the recent push of the NBA commissioner to explore betting on professional sports.
A truly great athlete.
Too bad his character is not commensurate with his athletic ability. This article indicates he has learned nothing.
Too bad his character is not commensurate with his athletic ability. This article indicates he has learned nothing.
I don'tn understand why betting that your team will win is a bad thing.
It gives you more insensitive to win which can not be wrong.
It gives you more insensitive to win which can not be wrong.
1
he didnt bet on baseball??? of course he did, also, they should punish everybody, if possible, but in the meantime, PR has a record of just trying to make it into the HoF in whatever way possible, and allowing him to, would set a terrible presedence...
I was *this* close to saying, as a Philadelphian who grew up in the echo of Kalas and Ashburn calling the games, that if Mike Schmidt says it's okay, then maybe it's okay. But Molitor does make a strong case, that the risk is watering down the prohibition against what Rose did and, by association, the prohibition against other violations in the sport, such as the use of PEDs. Allow an exception, the exception risks becoming the rule. Schmidt inadvertently reaffirms that danger in his closing quote, "We have forgiven other people for things very similar."
Tell Rose the ban will be lifted when he dies. He gets into the Hall posthumously, but he's denied ever living to see it. I think current ballplayers would heed the deterrent value, and baseball's all time hits leader would be enshrined according to his achievements on the field. I wouldn't do the same for Bonds or Clemens, as their achievements are tainted.
I think the HOF should be decided by those who played the sport. The decision on PEDs or Rose's gambling or whether so-and-so was violent in a domestic relationship should be measured by those who truly know what it takes. Middle aged writers who couldn't stand in a batter's box, determine who was great?
1
To allow Rose into the Hall of Fame is to say that you can violate the integrity of the game if you're a great baseball player. Rose was a great player and in his prime, he showed the toughness and determination that it takes to excel at a very difficult sport. He was baseball's straightest arrow and hardest worker- that he of all people would undermine that trust by betting on the team he managed ranks right up there with the Black Sox scandal. Worse because he was well paid and well treated. Calling what he did a mistake or an error is a misleading euphemism. What he did was a deliberate and conscious breach of one of baseball's cardinal rules. Does he deserve to be forgiven? Of course- we all do things we later wish we hadn't. But the hall of fame should be reserved only for those great players who did not betray the public trust in the integrity of the game.
8
I do not disagree with most of your sentiments. However, I think we are capable of more forgiveness than you are willing to give. The point that gambling on baseball is forbidden has been made quite well and Rose will never be viewed as someone who got off lightly for breaking the rules if he is reinstated.
Nah.....he serves as a foreshadow for Ragin' Roger, Big Head Barry, and A-Rod
There is some evidence, if only some, to suggest that if Bart Giamatti had lived to serve as commissioner for another decade or so Rose would have received some leniency. None of Giamatti's successors, however, have been moved to end Rose's lifetime ineligibility, despite some thawing at the All-Century Team presentation in 1999 and the meeting with Selig later. I tend to think if Rose hadn't made such a spectacle of himself, to the extent of signing baseballs saying he bet on the game and he was sorry (plus the book, plus the TV show...) Selig might have relented. Rose will probably get to appear at the coming All-Star Game in Cincinnati, its first since '88.
I do believe he will eventually make it, but posthumously, at which point the Hall will change its rule and allow the veterans committee to vote on his candidacy. I think his contemporaries will put him in, perhaps in part to send a message to PED users that their sin corrupted the game more than Rose's. This will start a campaign to put Joe Jackson in the Hall of Fame, too, and the bitterness that surrounds that divide in the game makes the Rose controversy seem very small. Rose was a very good player for more than twenty years, but rarely a great one. Sabermetrics do not advance his case for the Hall, they hurt it.
I do believe he will eventually make it, but posthumously, at which point the Hall will change its rule and allow the veterans committee to vote on his candidacy. I think his contemporaries will put him in, perhaps in part to send a message to PED users that their sin corrupted the game more than Rose's. This will start a campaign to put Joe Jackson in the Hall of Fame, too, and the bitterness that surrounds that divide in the game makes the Rose controversy seem very small. Rose was a very good player for more than twenty years, but rarely a great one. Sabermetrics do not advance his case for the Hall, they hurt it.
1
Pete Rose made his bed.
He should never be reinstated for what he did. It is on a par with the Chicago Black Sox of 1919.
Shoeless Joe Jackson was as good as Rose, or better.
Decisons have consequences.
He should never be reinstated for what he did. It is on a par with the Chicago Black Sox of 1919.
Shoeless Joe Jackson was as good as Rose, or better.
Decisons have consequences.
1
Charlie Hustle has been the best player I have ever seen play ball.
Why is it alright for the Bankers to ruin millions of peoples life by losing their retirement savings (401k) and not go to jail and criticise Rose for betting.
For Petes sake give me a break.
Why is it alright for the Bankers to ruin millions of peoples life by losing their retirement savings (401k) and not go to jail and criticise Rose for betting.
For Petes sake give me a break.
2
Rose should be in the Hall. Perry is an admitted spitball thrower and he's in the Hall. I think his years of punishment are sufficient. Granted, he isn't the brightest bulb in the marque, but he is only a human being, like the rest of us. He is being made a scapegoat and that is worse than what he did. Gambling is an illness, mean-spiritedness is an evil, an the powers that be are showing a mean-spirited side that is not in keeping with our American ideals. Even convicted felons get a chance to return to society.
1
America is about second chances -- Pete has paid the price for his transgressions and now it's time for him to get into the HOF. And he wasn't a mediocre player as one person said -- he was Charlie Hustle and if there was one player who would be the cornerstone of my team, it would be Pete Rose.
1
If you say, "But, he never bet against his own team," then you clearly don't understand the issue.
In Rose's case he may have made baseball decisions based on his wager and not on the events occurring on the field.
Gambling on the sport in which you participate, be it as a manager or a player, tugs at the integrity of the game.
It also threatens the livelihood and reputation of everyone involved.
It is the single most important rule in baseball. Rose knew that and violated it anyway.
Comparisons to PED use, corked bats and scuffed balls don't even come close to what gambling can do to the game.
As a result, Rose agreed to a lifetime ban to prevent the full disclosure of the scourge he brought upon the game.
A lifetime ban is just that, a lifetime ban.
It seems that Rose doesn't want to accept that, just as didn't want to accept that the gambling rule applied to him.
Even the biggest name in baseball is not bigger than baseball itself.
In Rose's case he may have made baseball decisions based on his wager and not on the events occurring on the field.
Gambling on the sport in which you participate, be it as a manager or a player, tugs at the integrity of the game.
It also threatens the livelihood and reputation of everyone involved.
It is the single most important rule in baseball. Rose knew that and violated it anyway.
Comparisons to PED use, corked bats and scuffed balls don't even come close to what gambling can do to the game.
As a result, Rose agreed to a lifetime ban to prevent the full disclosure of the scourge he brought upon the game.
A lifetime ban is just that, a lifetime ban.
It seems that Rose doesn't want to accept that, just as didn't want to accept that the gambling rule applied to him.
Even the biggest name in baseball is not bigger than baseball itself.
1
Even murderers get out on parole - get him reinstated, for god's sake! Enough is enough. He was the most exciting players that I have ever seen since I started watching baseball in 1967. Not to have him, with his records in the HOF is a travesty.
1
I have loved baseball for more than 70 years. The best all round player I ever saw play was Pete Rose. While he never appeared to be the brightest bulb he had the brightest spirit and talent when he played. He was a player! Not only is his individual record a standout but he always played 100% and kept his teammates spirits at that level, too. He was a great team player. I believe we can forgive a human mistake. It was stupid but not criminal. He belongs in Cooperstown. He earned it.
1
the best "all round" player you ever saw? really? consider his lifetime rankings:
batting average: 172
home runs: 442
rbi: 102
slugging pct: 862
stolen bases: 348
gold gloves: 147
outs made: 1
so on what basis is he the best all-around player? he couldn't hit for power, didn't run all that well, and was a very good but not great fielder. his main skills were staying healthy and avoiding military service. he was at best a two-skill player and his greatest skill -- hitting for average -- ranks him 172 all-time. you may have loved baseball for 70 years, but one has to wonder whether you actually watched any.
batting average: 172
home runs: 442
rbi: 102
slugging pct: 862
stolen bases: 348
gold gloves: 147
outs made: 1
so on what basis is he the best all-around player? he couldn't hit for power, didn't run all that well, and was a very good but not great fielder. his main skills were staying healthy and avoiding military service. he was at best a two-skill player and his greatest skill -- hitting for average -- ranks him 172 all-time. you may have loved baseball for 70 years, but one has to wonder whether you actually watched any.
He made his bed and now he must lay in it. He knew the rule and the consequences.
1
Punishment must always be proportionate to the crime. If, say, Rose had deliberately thrown his bat at an opposing player and killed him, then a lifetime ban and utter ostracism would be a fitting punishment, along with a prison sentence.
If he had cheated to improve his performance by taking performance-enhancing drugs, then all of his accomplishments should be nullified and treated as though they never occurred, since in fact he really would not have accomplished them.
If, as really happened, he developed an uncontrollable gambling addiction while managing a team, the proper punishment is a lifetime ban from further employment in the game. That is a fitting and severe punishment.
Even so, it is not possible to take from him his remarkable accomplishments as a player. The effort to do so is absurd, petty, vindictive, and inappropriately excessive.
Pete Rose was an extraordinary player. He had more grit, raw determination, and staying power than any other player in the history of the game. His career statistics confirm the point. Of course he must be inducted into the Hall of Fame, or else it isn't even a hall of fame, but only a selective fraternity that does not include one of the best players.
He can even be forgiven. He didn't kill anyone after all. But he can never again be employed in baseball. At the same time, no one can take away from Rose what he accomplished on the field, and these accomplishments must be recognized in the Hall of Fame.
If he had cheated to improve his performance by taking performance-enhancing drugs, then all of his accomplishments should be nullified and treated as though they never occurred, since in fact he really would not have accomplished them.
If, as really happened, he developed an uncontrollable gambling addiction while managing a team, the proper punishment is a lifetime ban from further employment in the game. That is a fitting and severe punishment.
Even so, it is not possible to take from him his remarkable accomplishments as a player. The effort to do so is absurd, petty, vindictive, and inappropriately excessive.
Pete Rose was an extraordinary player. He had more grit, raw determination, and staying power than any other player in the history of the game. His career statistics confirm the point. Of course he must be inducted into the Hall of Fame, or else it isn't even a hall of fame, but only a selective fraternity that does not include one of the best players.
He can even be forgiven. He didn't kill anyone after all. But he can never again be employed in baseball. At the same time, no one can take away from Rose what he accomplished on the field, and these accomplishments must be recognized in the Hall of Fame.
16
Another article put this best:
"You left out a very important aspect of the Rose situation. It is not accurate to say that he only bet on his team to win. The conclusion was also that he held back his bet on days he didn't expect the win, giving a signal to the bookies which side to bet on. As he got deep into debt, he was also compromised because he was dealing with illegal bookies who were connected with other criminal enterprises. It may well be that withholding his bet on certain days was equal to betting against his team and he did that to help settle his debt.
The problem with illegal gambling on baseball is that fans can begin to doubt that players and managers are actually trying to win. If they start to believe the game is fixed, then it is no longer a contest and rooting for the outcome becomes pointless. If the fans lose interest, it can destroy the sport. Of course the Rose situation is not the same as the Black Sox situation, but it could easily lead to the same results if not stopped.
Every form of cheating that you can imagine is cheating to win, so at least the fans have confidence that you are trying hard to win. The possibility that you might be trying to lose, is something a sport dare not risk. This is why every baseball player knows that no level of gambling on baseball is allowed. Not even a little.
Baseball owes Pete Rose nothing. He played baseball and managed and was well compensated to do that."
"You left out a very important aspect of the Rose situation. It is not accurate to say that he only bet on his team to win. The conclusion was also that he held back his bet on days he didn't expect the win, giving a signal to the bookies which side to bet on. As he got deep into debt, he was also compromised because he was dealing with illegal bookies who were connected with other criminal enterprises. It may well be that withholding his bet on certain days was equal to betting against his team and he did that to help settle his debt.
The problem with illegal gambling on baseball is that fans can begin to doubt that players and managers are actually trying to win. If they start to believe the game is fixed, then it is no longer a contest and rooting for the outcome becomes pointless. If the fans lose interest, it can destroy the sport. Of course the Rose situation is not the same as the Black Sox situation, but it could easily lead to the same results if not stopped.
Every form of cheating that you can imagine is cheating to win, so at least the fans have confidence that you are trying hard to win. The possibility that you might be trying to lose, is something a sport dare not risk. This is why every baseball player knows that no level of gambling on baseball is allowed. Not even a little.
Baseball owes Pete Rose nothing. He played baseball and managed and was well compensated to do that."
1
Pete Rose has/had a gambling problem. It led him to engage in risky behaviour violating the baseball code whose penalty is a capital offense of a lifetime ban. Was he contrite? Did he seek help? No! He signed off on the lifetime ban and continued to maintain his innocence. If he was innocent why didn't he contest the matter? Maybe it was the Dowd report. This person with a gambling problem that tarnished his legacy would attend the Kentucky Derby and hang out regularly in Las Vegas (signing autographs for a fee) Where was Mr. Rose during many Hall of Fame induction weekends? He was invariably in Cooperstown, doing his thing of signing autographs and taking some of the spotlight away from the inductees. He didn't do this for his love of the game or his love of the Hall of Fame. He did it for his love of Pete Rose.
2
The self-righteous hypocrisy of M.L.B. and the Hall of Fame (and many of the commenters) is astounding. The owners encouraged steroids because TV wanted something dramatic, easily understood by casual fans, and good for instant replays. Then when it became apparent, they threw Bonds, McGwire et al under the bus.
The owners can raise and lower the mound, change the strike zone, and many other things that affect performance (and stats), and no one complains about violations of the purity of the game. The players can be pumped up with painkillers, sewn back together (e.g. Schiiling in the 2004 playoffs), and no one complains about violations of the purity of the game.
Has anyone suggested the '51 playoff between the Dodgers and Giants be reversed because it came out signals were stolen, certainly a violation of the "purity" of the game?
As to Rose: it's not like he bet against his team.
As to commenters who are bent out of shape by players lying: do you think actors should be banned or denied an Academy Award, if they lie? If they lie about making a payoff or sleeping with someone to get an award-winning role? Entertainers, including professional athletes, are entertainers, and it is pure foolishness to consider them, let alone expect them to be, role models.
You want role models, how about Rudy Giuliani publicly honoring Jeffrey Maier for fan interference in favor of the Yankees in the 1996 playoffs? Are Yankee fans screaming about that. Ye who live in glass houses...
The owners can raise and lower the mound, change the strike zone, and many other things that affect performance (and stats), and no one complains about violations of the purity of the game. The players can be pumped up with painkillers, sewn back together (e.g. Schiiling in the 2004 playoffs), and no one complains about violations of the purity of the game.
Has anyone suggested the '51 playoff between the Dodgers and Giants be reversed because it came out signals were stolen, certainly a violation of the "purity" of the game?
As to Rose: it's not like he bet against his team.
As to commenters who are bent out of shape by players lying: do you think actors should be banned or denied an Academy Award, if they lie? If they lie about making a payoff or sleeping with someone to get an award-winning role? Entertainers, including professional athletes, are entertainers, and it is pure foolishness to consider them, let alone expect them to be, role models.
You want role models, how about Rudy Giuliani publicly honoring Jeffrey Maier for fan interference in favor of the Yankees in the 1996 playoffs? Are Yankee fans screaming about that. Ye who live in glass houses...
2
"...because it came out that signals were stolen." That's a contention, not a fact.
The one rule that is read in every clubhouse, every spring training, for I don’t know how many decades, has been made clear that if this is violated, this is the consequence,” Molitor said.
Forgiveness is a great theory in concept but what about in practice? How about forgiving Dzhokar Tsarnaev? Obviously the egregiousness of their actions is nowhere near comparable. But the point is there has to be consequences for one's actions, especially where, as here, Rose violated baseball's most sacred rule. Recall Rose's initial denials of having bet on baseball and later admission of having done so. Rose's reinstatement in MLB would mock its ultimate prohibition. That'd be a heck of an example for everyone else.
3
I lived in Cincinnati and had season tickets (1st row behind the visitors dugout) during the era of the Big Red Machine. What a pleasure to watch Rose at 3rd and at bat, the man played the game with his heart and soul - to win. I also met him a few times, once during the offseason at Cincinnati airport waiting for our flights to be called, he recognized me and sat down to chat. He was constantly interrupted by kids and adults for an autograph or just to shake his hand. He was a total gentleman, very kind to the fans that approached him, especially the kids.
Others here have called him a sleaze, in my opinion he was and remains a man and ballplayer to be admired and respected. His gambling addiction was tragic, the way he handled it was worse but it's now nearly 30 years ago since he hung up his uniform.
I doubt that the BBWAA and the Commissioner will ever let him into the HOF but it is ironic that Rose's baseball memorabilia is on display in the HOF. That is the "two faces" of Major League Baseball.
Incidentally I still have ticket stubs from the Reds 1975 World Series win over the Red Sox and the 1976 sweep of the Yankees. Premium WS price, $16.25 per ticket!
Others here have called him a sleaze, in my opinion he was and remains a man and ballplayer to be admired and respected. His gambling addiction was tragic, the way he handled it was worse but it's now nearly 30 years ago since he hung up his uniform.
I doubt that the BBWAA and the Commissioner will ever let him into the HOF but it is ironic that Rose's baseball memorabilia is on display in the HOF. That is the "two faces" of Major League Baseball.
Incidentally I still have ticket stubs from the Reds 1975 World Series win over the Red Sox and the 1976 sweep of the Yankees. Premium WS price, $16.25 per ticket!
4
whats worse, steroids, or gambling? Personally, the 'integrity' of the 'sport' is nonexistent in an age of hyper-commercialization, even in the 'post' performance enhancing drugs era. It took the threat of federal action to clean up baseball, no one is here altruistically.
Shoeless Joe Jackson had a lifetime bating average of .356, which included one season when his average was .408. Unquestionably those statistics merit merit entrance into the Hall of Fame, unless you discount the fact that his team threw the 1920 world series.
Pete Rose has excellent statistics too. But betting on your team, gambling, is not just some obscure rule in baseball. It is a major widely advertised rule. The Old Yankee Stadium had a sign in ten foot high letters, "No Betting."
Finally, entrance into the Hall of Fame is not an entitlement.
Pete Rose has excellent statistics too. But betting on your team, gambling, is not just some obscure rule in baseball. It is a major widely advertised rule. The Old Yankee Stadium had a sign in ten foot high letters, "No Betting."
Finally, entrance into the Hall of Fame is not an entitlement.
2
I hate Pete Rose. In every sport there are unwritten rules that you do not violate. Pete Rose violated the unwritten rules of baseball with his overly aggressive style of play. This gave him an unfair advantage over most players who followed the unwritten rules. He should have been thrown out of most games he played in for unsportsmanlike conduct. However MLB baseball never penalized him for his on-field conduct. MLB allowed him to put up big statistics with his unfair play. To me the betting misconduct is secondary to the unfair advantages that MLB allowed him to take on the field. Since MLB allowed him to run up the big statistics, because it brought paying fans to the game, I think MLB should put him in the Hall. MLB is a business and the only reason they want to keep Rose out of the Hall is that it might be bad for business.
Rose called his bookie night after night in the clubhouse to make bets, and phone records confirmed the calls. He even did this when Hal McCoy from the Dayton Daily News was in the office as the senior beat writer getting last minute changes in the roster, etc. for the other writers in the press box. This was not a once time mistake. Rose repeatedly bet on games. If he is reinstated, then Shoeless Joe Jackson should be reinstated. Baseball is about tradition
8
I'll never forget Pete Rose as a player! The guy played 3 infield positions as an All-Star, was a switch hitter, and always on the field. In 1980, at 39 years old he played in all 162 games for the Phillies, and who can forget Game 6 of the World Series in the 9th inning, when backing up the play, he caught the foul pop that spun out of catcher Bob Boone's glove for the second out of the final inning of an eventual Phillie championship. Such a hard nosed player. If only he had not violated the rules against gambling, he would surely be held in the highest esteem in every ball park in America instead of peddling autographs as a side show to tourists in Sin City.
3
America is suppose to be about 2nd Chances... If People can't forgive Rose .. They have issues and we should discard them as they don't understand they have probably done worse in their lifes and someone forgave them.. Let yea without sin throw the firsts stone...
3
During the glory years of the Big Red Machine I attended Ohio State and well remember the sweep of the Yankees in '76 because I had tickets for the fifth game. My grandmother would always say: "That Pete..."
Here's what he's doing today.
"Pete Rose, the king of hits, keeps hustling"
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/03/20/pete-rose-king-hits-keep...
Here's what he's doing today.
"Pete Rose, the king of hits, keeps hustling"
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/03/20/pete-rose-king-hits-keep...
yes the hustling huckster selling himself...
My grandfather pitched for the Reds in the 19-teens, and I started attending Crosley Field Reds' games at 10 (considered early enough for a girl in the 1960s). No one old enough, here in Cincinnati, can forget the Big Red Machine, and in the 1970s, two of the most exciting World Series in memory. Rose was at the heart of it and shared the the most talented bench with Bench, Foster, Morgan, Griffey and that whole great team. Had the betting scandal happened then, like thousands of Reds' fans, I would have cried, 'Say it isn't so, Pete!"
I recall him saying during one of the 1970s World Series: 'you have to be a man to play major league baseball, but you have to have a lot of little boy in you, too.' Perhaps the 'boy' thought he could get away with the betting scandal, but the 'man' learned he could not. I remain ambivalent about Rose and reinstatement, but I think the comparisons to other disciplinary problems argue Rose's case that enough is enough.
Lift the rule that he is no longer banned and let the Hall of Fame electors make the call that only umpires can.
I recall him saying during one of the 1970s World Series: 'you have to be a man to play major league baseball, but you have to have a lot of little boy in you, too.' Perhaps the 'boy' thought he could get away with the betting scandal, but the 'man' learned he could not. I remain ambivalent about Rose and reinstatement, but I think the comparisons to other disciplinary problems argue Rose's case that enough is enough.
Lift the rule that he is no longer banned and let the Hall of Fame electors make the call that only umpires can.
8
he signed the ineligible statement of his own free will. did something change?
When I was young I hated Pete Rose, but I hated him as a fan of the Mets. He tried to make them lose, that was his job. The lifetime ban is a immature and absolutist solution that might make sense if the other players in the Hall were saints. They aren't they are or were real live men. I have never heard any evidence that he fixed a game or bet on the Reds to lose.
Ty Cobb was a nasty racist, Mickey Mantle was a drunk, Pete Rose was self-absorbed and a bit of a jerk. Two of those people are in the Hall, the third deserves to be.
Ty Cobb was a nasty racist, Mickey Mantle was a drunk, Pete Rose was self-absorbed and a bit of a jerk. Two of those people are in the Hall, the third deserves to be.
3
You are wrong, Faye Vincent: Pete Rose has been sorely missed. He played the game for the LOVE of the game. He defined joy in a baseball suit. Any one who ever saw him play never forgot it. Forgive and forget and bring our Charley Hustle back to the game he belongs to.
2
Only one person is responsible for Pete Rose's banishment: Pete Rose. His low-life behavior stands out all by itself, never mind Clemons, Bonds or Sosa. Gambling and betrayal is as part of his legacy as hitting a baseball. The first, and maybe only, question the Commissioner should ask Rose is: "Who do you think you are?" Rose lost his HOF eligibility before any votes could be posted. Baseball should never forgive his dishonesty.
2
Actually, it's not just one error. The number of "errors" is not known . . . .
1
Put him in. Baseball is just entertainment. What a bunch of pompous people!
3
If they're going to keep him on the ineligible list and thereby deny his admission to the Hall of Fame then, for heaven's sake, they should do the same with the PEDS cheaters. Don't leave their election to the discretion of the baseball writers.
18
Take a minute to remember that if he didn't gamble on baseball--calling in bets as a team's manager from the dugout phone during games, lying about it for years after--he wouldn't have to be "forgiven." I can find no reason why he should be. His conduct was egregious, a clear violation, and engaged in without conscience by a player who thought he was above the rules of the game he claimed to love. In the end, he cheated on his love. He knew the penalties. His actions are a permanent stain. So should be the permanence of his ban. He should be out for life.
30
Gambling is a sickness. Drug abuse is a sickness that baseball has programs for and has given players numerous chances. Steve Howe 8 different times he has been given chances after failed drug test. Pete has a gambling addiction and the first thing all addicts do is lie and are in denial of their problem. If Pete bet against the Reds would be more serious than betting them to win. Don't get me wrong what Pete did was wrong, But Baseball needs to address this like they do with drug use. Is taking performance enhancing drugs is cheating, But that is okay and players are still playing after being caught. 25 years is enough for punishing Pete for having a sickness.
As you know, Mr. Rhett, I agree with the points you make more often than not. Since I am not a die hard baseball fan, I don't fully understand what it means for someone to be banned for life. He is a quarter of century beyond playing the game and no one is going to hire him as a coach or a manager, so how is baseball being protected? A life sentence for anything is rather severe.
Once during his active playing years, I was on a plane with Rose heading to San Diego. Commercial, not a charter. There were a number of ball players on the plane, but not the whole team. I don't know why they were there, but they were, and Rose was swaggering up and down the aisle like he owned the place. (I was very unimpressed with him, but I thought that must just be how all players act.) He had his shirt unbuttoned half way down and some sort of pendant hanging over his chest. Maybe that's why he's banned: arrogance on top of his misdeeds. He was a hell of a head first player, though. Few in any sport ever matched the energy and drive he brought to the game in his prime.
Once during his active playing years, I was on a plane with Rose heading to San Diego. Commercial, not a charter. There were a number of ball players on the plane, but not the whole team. I don't know why they were there, but they were, and Rose was swaggering up and down the aisle like he owned the place. (I was very unimpressed with him, but I thought that must just be how all players act.) He had his shirt unbuttoned half way down and some sort of pendant hanging over his chest. Maybe that's why he's banned: arrogance on top of his misdeeds. He was a hell of a head first player, though. Few in any sport ever matched the energy and drive he brought to the game in his prime.
1
Your defense is more excuse making: if Rose has a sickness, he should seek treatment--but his conduct and actions tied to baseball as a result of his illness still do not warrant him or any other player being allowed to flaunt the rules. It is enough he was allowed to play the game. He does not deserve by his character or his ego-driven narcissism (or his illness) to be in the Hall of Fame.
Two final points: win or lose, bookies could take clues from Pete's bets. Lastly, he didn't bet on football or basketball or the American league, but his own team--the one he managed! I am sorry for his illness. But I cannot forgive his actions.
Two final points: win or lose, bookies could take clues from Pete's bets. Lastly, he didn't bet on football or basketball or the American league, but his own team--the one he managed! I am sorry for his illness. But I cannot forgive his actions.
The reality is Pete Rose got the most of his hits from longevity. Lots of singles, the pitchers didn't worry about him because they didn't have to worry about a home run. A mediocre hitter who lasted a long and bet on the game. Let him be eligible for the Hall of Fame and fail like Clemens and Bonds. There should be no room in the Hall of Fame for cheats.
6
And what, precisely, is wrong with longevity? You last a long time in the game because you play well. A mediocre hitter doesn't get 200 hits a season. Rose averaged that for 20 years. And how many years did his teams make the post-season (when far fewer teams did)? And he played in, what, 6 World Series, and won 3? He was a great hitter, and a winner.
That said, his gambling was wrong. I might argue that Rose the player should eligible for the Hall of Fame. His gambling occurred as a manager primarily. So ban him as a manager. But Schmidt has a good point; others have cheated and suffered far less of a penalty.
That said, his gambling was wrong. I might argue that Rose the player should eligible for the Hall of Fame. His gambling occurred as a manager primarily. So ban him as a manager. But Schmidt has a good point; others have cheated and suffered far less of a penalty.
Wow, are you off base. Let him in or not is the article - tying run on 2nd & 2 outs in the 9th - there is no one I would rather have up to bat than Rose. If you had followed baseball in the 70's including The Big Red Machine you would certainly get it. He has the longest hit streak in the National league since 1900. To say Rose was a cheap singles hitter is like saying Mike Tyson depended on getting lucky with a big punch. Sadly Pete committed the cardinal sin - no excuse or denial here - but you would find no better ambassador for baseball - he bleeds the sport. No matter what you think of him off the field - he was A Player!
1
That is an absolutely ridiculous argument. Then Rod Carew and Paul Molitor would be average hitters at best. Carew only had 92 career home runs. Pete Rose has a lifetime average of .303 - Hardly a mediocre hitter?!?!? Heck only seven players total in ALL of baseball last year had a higher batting average in 2014 than Charlie Hustle had in his entire career! Ty Cobb played the same amount of years as Pete and had 43 less home runs. If you don't like Pete because he bet on baseball is fine but his stats place him as one of the elite hitters of all time.
1
Molitor is right! Pete probably seen the misconduct rule posted inside the clubhouse hundreds of times and walked by it thousands of times throughout his career. It's hard to have any sympathy when some people think the rules are meant for other people to follow. "Wanna bet!"
10
Most amazingly, talking to Terry Gross during a circa 2004 interview, when he started to admit that he was gambling on baseball (but before he admitted to gambling on the Reds), she asked him: Didn't you see that notice hung in every clubhouse about bars from the game due to gambling? He went on to blabber about how he never paid attention to it. (Pete never was the brightest bulb anyway.) His is the perfect story to justify Fay Vincent's explanation of deterrence as a reason to keep the ban - simply to get players' attention. I wonder how many of today's "not-so-bright bulbs" in the game even know Rose's story.
My biggest issue is that baseball itself has lost a great deal of its integrity through its shortsighted business decisions. Extortionary pricing is driving away fans, especially younger fans whose families cannot afford to spend the day at the ballpark. When I was a kid you could attend a double header on one ticket. Goodness, you cannot even rely on scheduled starting times anymore fear that a weekend afternoon game may be switched to a night game at short notice. As a kid one of the great joys was waiting for autographs in the front row before a game began. You really cannot do that very easily in Yankee Stadium any longer. I believe that baseball keeps alluding to this mythological integrity that once existed, but has largely faded away alongside some of the magic of the game. By the way, I am all for a free market, but perhaps the anti-trust exclusion should be rethought.
5
Up until the Yanks and Mets moved into new stadiums, we were able to go to 10-20 games a year split between the two teams. Now I don't go at all. $30 to park your car on top of the tickets. $50 to sit way up in the sky. Even with so-called cheap seats a day with the family can easily top $300. The Yankees (especially) have made it very clear they only want wealthy people at the games. Looking forward to seeing an empty stadium this year on TV.
He called his bookies from the clubhouse to place bets on his own team, except when he didn't.
What is it we're supposed to be talking about?
He can never come back from that. It's simply unthinkable.
What is it we're supposed to be talking about?
He can never come back from that. It's simply unthinkable.
20
Exactly. Well said, Walt.
Why do ONLY the writers get to vote on the Hall of Fame??....This is an Achilles Heel in the process and inherently unfair. It has to be a wider range of people making these choices. We need a range of true baseball people....front office, former players and managers. There is a way to get better overall judgement about this. The sample has to be larger to be fair. Writers only??....Just not right.
6
History has shown Rose's transgressions to be minor in comparison to others. There is no evidence he threw a game. It has been long enough. Reinstate Rose.
16
Minor in comparison to others? what others, those who are in or out of the hall of fame? If you are comparing them to PED users, I feel they should both be excluded
Just because others offended worse doesnt mean he should be let off. I fully agree that people like Braun should have had the same penalty imposed on them but thats no reason to let Rose off.
Also, the rule on gambling has not changed, today it would still get a player on the ineligible list and thrown out of ML baseball.
Also, the rule on gambling has not changed, today it would still get a player on the ineligible list and thrown out of ML baseball.
1
What's the line on whether he'll be forgiven? You're betting he will be?
Pete should be allowed on the Hall of Fame ballot for his unparalleled playing career, but he should not be reinstated to the game. The mans lacks integrity and there's no reason why MLB could or should want any current association with him. But I just don't know how you make the argument that he doesn't belong in the Hall.
6
rose agreed to the ban. why? the impression I had at the time was that the alternative was to have much nastier facts released.
from ESPN's "most memorable moments" --
"The evidence was so staggering that it was difficult to fathom. Records of phone call after phone call made to bookies, sometimes just minutes before the national anthem. Records of bets, one after another, day after day, on virtually every team, including the team he managed, along with the amount of the bet. Nearly $20,000 a day being waged on bets
"... On April 1, the IRS seized betting slips with Rose's name, writing and prints on them. The next day, it was reported that Rose had bet $8,000 to $16,000 daily on baseball games during the 1987 season.
***
from cbssports.com -- by Matt Snyder --
" Rose accepted his permanent ban voluntarily instead of fighting it. It would appear there's a lot more there that we don't even know about. Maybe never will (frankly, I don't care to know how bad it got)."
from ESPN's "most memorable moments" --
"The evidence was so staggering that it was difficult to fathom. Records of phone call after phone call made to bookies, sometimes just minutes before the national anthem. Records of bets, one after another, day after day, on virtually every team, including the team he managed, along with the amount of the bet. Nearly $20,000 a day being waged on bets
"... On April 1, the IRS seized betting slips with Rose's name, writing and prints on them. The next day, it was reported that Rose had bet $8,000 to $16,000 daily on baseball games during the 1987 season.
***
from cbssports.com -- by Matt Snyder --
" Rose accepted his permanent ban voluntarily instead of fighting it. It would appear there's a lot more there that we don't even know about. Maybe never will (frankly, I don't care to know how bad it got)."
6
Thanks for posting this!
While I have a lot of admiration for Pete Rose, I don't understand why this topic keeps coming up: He himself agreed to the lifetime ban.
5
Baseball, the owners, fans, writers, all made it clear in the 1990's that baseball is in the entertainment business, not the sport business. Everyone knew these guys were doping and no one stopped it because it was too good for business. Therefore the Hall of Fame and baseball itself isn't about character and integrity, it's about selling tickets.
As someone who saw Big Pete play dozens of times, my grandfather had season tickets at Crosley then Riverfront, I can assure you no one, NO ONE, in the history of sport brought more energy, passion, and a love for the game at its most fundamental level then Pete Rose. It was like when Jordan (I lived in Chicago in the 90's) touched the ball when pete was on base.
Of course he belongs in the Hall of Fame.
As someone who saw Big Pete play dozens of times, my grandfather had season tickets at Crosley then Riverfront, I can assure you no one, NO ONE, in the history of sport brought more energy, passion, and a love for the game at its most fundamental level then Pete Rose. It was like when Jordan (I lived in Chicago in the 90's) touched the ball when pete was on base.
Of course he belongs in the Hall of Fame.
6
I'm a Reds fan too, but this isn't about Rose's passion for the game.
It's about what he did to the Reds players as player/manager. I don't want any manager treating a game differently because he's got a bet down. That puts the long-term prospects of the team at risk, and it risks other players' careers.
Here's just one example:
Go to Retrosheet and look up the last Reds game of the '84 season. Completely meaningless. So why did Rose send out his ace Mario Soto on three days rest and then leave him out there for a complete game even though he was clearly laboring and gave up six runs? Keep in mind that Rose played under Sparky Anderson, who'd pull a pitcher if a hot dog wrapper blew onto the field. Keep in mind also that the days of the four-man rotation were long gone by the mid-80's. And keep in mind that whatever Rose's other failings, he's a walking baseball encyclopedia.
The only explanation left is that Rose used Soto in that game because it was his last chance to get a bet down that year.
It's about what he did to the Reds players as player/manager. I don't want any manager treating a game differently because he's got a bet down. That puts the long-term prospects of the team at risk, and it risks other players' careers.
Here's just one example:
Go to Retrosheet and look up the last Reds game of the '84 season. Completely meaningless. So why did Rose send out his ace Mario Soto on three days rest and then leave him out there for a complete game even though he was clearly laboring and gave up six runs? Keep in mind that Rose played under Sparky Anderson, who'd pull a pitcher if a hot dog wrapper blew onto the field. Keep in mind also that the days of the four-man rotation were long gone by the mid-80's. And keep in mind that whatever Rose's other failings, he's a walking baseball encyclopedia.
The only explanation left is that Rose used Soto in that game because it was his last chance to get a bet down that year.
Why do we accept that he never bet against his own team? He lied and lied and then, let's see, he lied some more. Do we have records that show that he never bet against his own team? Oh yes, he says he didn't. Good enough for me.
6
Thats simple. Because no evidence was found to support it
Rose is just as shady now as he was 25 years ago. He should never be reinstated, and should be man enough to accept the consequences of his ridiculously crooked actions.
5
It's long enough. I say put him on the ballot and let the voters decide. He is definitely one of the greatest players of his time or of anytime.
4
Pete is far more than a Hall Of Famer. He is the greatest baseball player in the second part of the 20th century. His personality should have nothing to do with his recognition. He didn't do steroids. But he liked to gamble-- like Babe Ruth. He like to drink like me and the Babe. What are baseball writers the ones who decides? Why not the public?
11
pete rose isn't in the top 10 among players of the latter part of the 20th century, probably not in the top 20 and arguably not in the top 30. he was a compiler who parlayed good health and avoidance of military service into a massive collection of at bats. he was a singles hitter who had a career average that trails tony gwynn, for example, by 35 points -- and no one has nominated gwynn as player of the half century. rose didn't steal a lot of bases, didn't drive in many runs, and didn't have a rifle for a throwing arm. his one record that will never be broken is the number of outs made in a career. the public doesn't decide because the public is comprised by those like you who have almost no understanding of rose's skills placed in historical perspective. he was a very good if somewhat limited player who had an unusually long career. he was and continues to be a miserable human being. he belongs in the hall of fame five minutes after he is dead and not a moment before.
1
Seriously? Better than Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Mickey Mantle, Mike Schmidt, Ernie Banks?
1
There's a hypocracy regarding gamblers in the hall of fame. Tris Speaker and Ty Cobb were nearly banned for allegedly throwing a late season game but the commissioner looked the other way. The evidence was there but it was more convenient to look the other way. Should we retroactively take their plaques down?
Pete Rose 's achievements as a baseball player are unmatched; but his selfish unethical actions -- as well as his repeated pathetic lies about those acts -- show the man has no conscience and ALWAYS valued his own skin above the integrity of the game he supposedly loved so much. At least the 'Black' Sox cheated in order to make some decent money and support their families. Rose has NO excuse for his actions, other than the cheap thrill he got from betting. What's more, Bart GIamatti was perhaps the best commissioner the sport has ever had, and I for one haven't forgotten that the stress put on him by Rose's swaggering deceit & refusal to admit guilt undoubtedly led, in part, to his death. So now after all his reckless narcissistic behavior, a contrite Pete Rose needs baseball to give his life some meaning? Too bad, Pete. Baseball doesn't need you. Try the gambler's hall of fame.
21
I have always thought Pete Rose deserved to be in the Hall of Fame. Nothing he did related to gambling related to his on the field performance.
10
Pete belongs in.
Do you think when coached he put his players in harms' way by playing injured players and putting pitchers in stressful situations simply because he had 'action' on the game?
The man bets on his team to win and gets banned for life. Meanwhile, players who are guilty of taking performance enhancing drugs are basically suspended (not really banned!) for a set amount of games. Hmmm. Betting vs. cheating? Is this so hard to decide. Come on, let Charlie Hustle in!!!
9
It's becoming all to common, to endorse one kind of unethical and damaging behavior, with (not really comparable) by referring to another kind of unethical and damaging behavior. I agree with the above comment on Bart Giamatti - he was a lifelong Red Sox fan, who loved baseball even more than Boston. I a ball is hit into the seats but outside the foul pole, it's a foul ball. Without rules, there is no game. A man who eats, drinks and sleeps baseball, is nowhere NEAR as naïve as history tells us Joe Jackson was. He just didn't think enough of THE GAME, to care about any bigger picture. He gave a lot to the game, but nobody gets to take that much away.
He's out.
He's out.
I agree. No question, Pete belongs in the Hall of Fame.
Rose is no more deserving of a place in the Hall of Fame than is Richard Nixon deserving of a place on Mount Rushmore. They were both men of great talent and achievement who rose to the top of their profession...and they both dishonored their profession, further coarsening our society in the process. Rose should just shut up, go away, and be grateful for not being in jail.
12
Richard Nixon was NOT a man of "great achievement".
5
Politics by definition is dishonorable.
This socialist disagrees, despite not agreeing with most of Nixon's ideas. The man was by far a above par when it came to achieving his goals.
Pete Rose.... If you love & respect baseball, (and you do), don't ask.
Redemption is a fine thing.... but so is being the example that keeps your sport clean. Wear it well. Be someone Lance Armstrong could learn from.
Redemption is a fine thing.... but so is being the example that keeps your sport clean. Wear it well. Be someone Lance Armstrong could learn from.
4
a stand-up guy like the Chicago Cubs great third baseman Ron Santo dies & is inducted into the HoF, unbeknownst to himself.
i argue with friends about Rose: sure, great stats, but overall legacy? kinda creepy. induct him upon his death, too.
i argue with friends about Rose: sure, great stats, but overall legacy? kinda creepy. induct him upon his death, too.
4
..... maybe we should induct him when we induct the 1919
Chicago "Black" Sox (when hell freezes over.
Chicago "Black" Sox (when hell freezes over.
Rules must be tempered with mercy and compassion to deliver just results and avoid being vehicles for cruelty and vindictiveness. Baseball does itself no favor by proving it can be inflexibly harsh.
8
Americans are the biggest hypocrites in the world. Millions of people gamble every second of every day on everything. I have watched parents teach their children how to wager on football, the NCAA bracket and every other sport we revere. He is in my HOF, and I could care less what the sanctimonious hypcrites among us believe. Drinking and driving is illegal, but there are a million bars with parking lots. Go figure.
17
Once again, let's endorse our poor and reckless judgments with OTHER poor and reckless judgments. Then Everything is peachy. (Football seems to like the idea.)
I loved to watch Pete Rose play, heck he was even an Expo for a season but seriously betting on your team for or against completely throws the integrity of the whole league into play . Take your starter out too soon if pitching a gem and using the excuse that I was protecting him or keeping him in to make sure you win but then that starter will be less effective next start but who cares you connected on your last bet . That starters next start might not be as effective which causes a loss vs an opponent who wins the division by 1 game . I'm sorry but I'd never let him in. His gambling could have affected the livelihood of all major leaguers as why attend or watch games when the script is already written or decisions are made not in the best interest of the team but on one mans pick !!!
Sorry but I cannot overlook this .
Great player for sure , example on how to play the game yes but induction into the HOF no !! We will always think of him as a great player , a plaque at the HOF not a necessity .
Sorry but I cannot overlook this .
Great player for sure , example on how to play the game yes but induction into the HOF no !! We will always think of him as a great player , a plaque at the HOF not a necessity .
26
Pete Rose is a great player but he's a sleeze. His actions are the type that threaten the future of the game. Is one guy more important than the future of the game?
12
Being a sleeze has nothing to do with the man who is one of the greatest players ever in the game. Honus Wagner had the honor long before Pete.
2
It is utterly inconceivable that a player of Rose's immense stature can continue to be barred from the hallowed Hall of Fame in Cooperstown. While personal character and integrity weigh heavily into the voting psyche along with the obvious statistical performance, the Rose saga has run its course. The man has paid an enormous price for his indiscretion. The message has been clearly sent to all Major League players. It is now time to put all of the emotional baggage aside and allow this man in his closing years to finally be acknowledged by the Game he passionately played and still loves. I believe that most real Fans of Baseball want to see Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame. I know I do, and I am a lifelong Mets fan.
9
Everyone who invests in the stock market is gambling...it's not like the guy threw games. Give him a break and let him in, he earned it.
7
Maybe wait until he is no longer with us on this great earth to give him a second chance but for Pete's sake, let him in the HOF.
1
Aw shucks I forgive him too. He was a great player. And he tarnished the integrity of the game. He's OUT. Should we give the murderer you mentioned the right to vote?... let him carry a gun? Look forward. Look to the Game, for heaven's sake!
Pete Rose is a rough customer, a throwback to a previous era. He's not a nice guy. He jokes about his exclusion in tv commercials. If he feels terrible about his predicament he doesn't show it. Maybe he's not that bright. He also played the game hard, and it was sheer determination, not talent, that pushed him to become the all time hits leader, a remarkable feat. I know of a murderer who got out of jail after 11 years. Pete Rose may be a jerk, but sometimes even jerks deserve to be forgiven. Baseball is big enough to forgive Pete Rose.
8
After the Blacksox Scandal, MLB had, and still has, one and only one death penalty: Gambling. Everyone associated with the game knows the penalty. Sorry, Pete. You broke the one rule which could not pardoned, and you should not be pardoned. You got caught, admitted it, signed the agreement, and ever since have tried to renege. You're not sorry for what you did, only that you were caught and punished. That's not contrition, and therefore you don't merit absolution. MLB and the record books should treat you like an non-entity; right now you're an asterisk in the annals of the game. When you're dead, your name can replace the asterisk.
20
Pete Rose broke baseball records. He belongs in the Hall of Fame. His gambling was a sickness. Pete Rose bet on his own team to win. That is not what the gambling rule was for. It was for people who had some control over their teams performance who would bet on the opposing team.
28
Yup it sometimes IS a sickness. I spent five years of my life working in an alcohol and drug rehabilitation facility. I don't know how many of our patients "slipped" after discharge. Some did, and some did not.
But I know one thing; those that achieved ongoing sobriety did only after they stopped blaming others and accepted the consequences of their behavior, and moved on with their lives. He knew it was the big one. He needs to accept it - and baseball gave him far more, in the end, than the huge all he gave. He's out.
But I know one thing; those that achieved ongoing sobriety did only after they stopped blaming others and accepted the consequences of their behavior, and moved on with their lives. He knew it was the big one. He needs to accept it - and baseball gave him far more, in the end, than the huge all he gave. He's out.
NYC: You are taking Rose's word for it that he never bet against the Reds? This is the man that said "I never bet" then allowed,"Well, I never bet on baseball" then" conceded "Okay, I bet on baseball but never on the Reds" then conceded "Okey, okay, I bet on the Reds but always to win". Fool me one time .......
1
Rose bet on all sorts of things other than baseball, and did it through bookies, and was so bad at it that he found himself hugely in debt to the New York mob.
This wasn't a case of Michael Jordan spending an entire night at a casino and having the fortune to cover all his losses and then some. Rose's debts far outstripped what he made from baseball. That put Rose in a position to be compromised, and his fame is the only thing that kept him from being fitted with cement cleats.
This wasn't a case of Michael Jordan spending an entire night at a casino and having the fortune to cover all his losses and then some. Rose's debts far outstripped what he made from baseball. That put Rose in a position to be compromised, and his fame is the only thing that kept him from being fitted with cement cleats.
Not easy. You feel sorry for Pete Rose (somewhat) and time has been served. Arrogance is hard to feel sorry for. But then there are others like Shoeless Joe way back 1918. Why not forgive him? From what I read he too didn't realize what he was doing. In fact didn't he hit over 350 in the "Black Sox Series"? The idea of no betting is about conflict of interest and the integrity of outcome. It is worse than PED's, spit balls, corked bats. Those are individuals who effect their personal performance. Throwing a game or even the appearance or chance of doing so is a much more serious issue. In fact I could argue the other 3 forms of "cheating" seek to enhance the individuals performance in an attempt to win the game. The gambler may seek to lose it.
3
Nobody has ever suggested that Rose bet against his team. This argument that he should be banned because of how somebody else might bet strikes me as profoundly juvenile, the equivalent of tattling and screaming that "momma said you couldn't do that."
Breaking the rules does generally have to result in some kind of sanction, but it should be one that fits the crime. We're talking about what many other commenters have called "the death penalty"—not something you'd dole out on the basis of "we wrote something down and he didn't do it."
If you can't stand up and say "I think he did something that was deeply harmful," then what are we talking about? Are we just arguing for the right to turn off our brains and ignore the reality of the situation?
If you think he actually deserves this punishment, then make the case, don't say "some hypothetical other person might do something that would be really bad."
Breaking the rules does generally have to result in some kind of sanction, but it should be one that fits the crime. We're talking about what many other commenters have called "the death penalty"—not something you'd dole out on the basis of "we wrote something down and he didn't do it."
If you can't stand up and say "I think he did something that was deeply harmful," then what are we talking about? Are we just arguing for the right to turn off our brains and ignore the reality of the situation?
If you think he actually deserves this punishment, then make the case, don't say "some hypothetical other person might do something that would be really bad."
Sure Rose accomplished plenty on the field but he should not receive Hall of Fame honors. He is crooked and his behavior has been shameful. Inducting him into Cooperstown sends the wrong kind of message. Lying, cheating, degenerate gamblers have no place in the Hall of Fame. With the huge number of players on steroids led by Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, however, he could take his place with them in the Hall of Shame.
7
Can't endorse one crime with another. It simply devalues the game. Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, their records don't belong, and sadly, BUT SURELY, neither do they.
1
He agreed to a lifetime ban for violating one of the sport's cardinal rules. As a student of the game, he certainly knew that the 1919 Reds were the beneficiaries of players whose performances influenced by gambling. His managing the Reds decades later was also influenced by gambling, namely the incentives he gave himself to win certain games so he could make money on his bets. His accomplishments as a player are undeniable but he thumbed his nose at a core concept of baseball. When Buck Weaver is allowed into the HOF, maybe Rose can be considered, but not until then.
16
Joe Jackson was easily the best player on that White Sox team, hit .375 during that fateful Series, and wasn't even at the meeting in New York where the other players (Weaver included) agreed to throw the Series. I feel if anything, ONLY Jackson should be admitted- no Rose, and certainly no Weaver.
1
Not before Shoeless Joe Jackson. At least he can honestly plead ignorance.
Aren't there players who have gotten into the hall as both players and managers, or as only one of the two despite having done both? Why shouldn't Rose be eligible as a player (prior to his betting), but banned for getting in as a manager?
11
He was mediocre as a manager, never made the playoffs. How can your comment be a Times pick?
4
Where in my comment did I ever suggest he get in as a manager? Do you know what the word "banned" means?
Oh, letting Rose in the Hall of Fame would damage the "integrity" of the game! If that sentence alone doesn't have you laughing out loud, nothing will.
25
Here's the punishment. Pete gets into the Hall, after he passes from this life. He is honored for his play but does not enjoy the moment. Tough love.
4
Nope. The integrity of the game.
The HoF is over-rated. Baseball is interesting for reasons unrelated to who has - or has not - been voted into the HoF by the BBWAA. Pete Rose's hitting records are interesting all by themselves. As is his betting on his own team. As is Barry Bonds' home run records and his PED usage ... etc. Certainly there are members of the HoF who would not have been voted in if some dirty little secret was known by all. Who cares?
1
Agreed. In the digital age, no one cares about what happened yesterday. Fifteen minutes of fame? You're lucky if it is 15 seconds. Rose getting in the HOF is not going to get anyone to stop in their tracks.
1
That's no reason BASEBALL shouldn't stop them in their tracks.
Baseball's history, its fans, from Brooklyn's Hilda Chester, Mantle to everyman and woman, who knows it. the rivalries, the sons watching fro' laps; Mays, Robinsons, Ruth, Spahn, yes and even Rose. The smells and sounds,
the wins, the losses, great plays, the home runs, the errors, the brawls, celebrations, the fields, Shibe, Ebbetts, Fenway, Wrigley with and without lights, all of it part of the game. And if we go to the Hall of Fame, as we have several times, and my sons ever ask me about Pete Rose, I 'em " he gambled on baseball when he was a key part of a Major League Baseball team, and ..........He ... OUT!"
the wins, the losses, great plays, the home runs, the errors, the brawls, celebrations, the fields, Shibe, Ebbetts, Fenway, Wrigley with and without lights, all of it part of the game. And if we go to the Hall of Fame, as we have several times, and my sons ever ask me about Pete Rose, I 'em " he gambled on baseball when he was a key part of a Major League Baseball team, and ..........He ... OUT!"
As someone said, this is entertainment and sport. He's contrite. He never took drugs. He didn't commit a crime or abuse anyone.
He has more hits than Ty Cobb for crying out loud. Mantle & Ford called him Charley Hustle. He's among the greatest, because of hard work. No shortcuts (i.e. drugs) were taken.
Let him back in. The first-ballot HOF induction will follow.
He has more hits than Ty Cobb for crying out loud. Mantle & Ford called him Charley Hustle. He's among the greatest, because of hard work. No shortcuts (i.e. drugs) were taken.
Let him back in. The first-ballot HOF induction will follow.
13
Absolutely. His love of the game an absolute and was contagious. You could sense it, even through a TV screen, as he ran on and off the field. He did more for baseball, and we who love baseball, in spirit, with one at bat, than many today do with a career.
As many others here have stated, 'Enough is enough...let him back in'.
As many others here have stated, 'Enough is enough...let him back in'.
2
If this were about his achievements, this discussion would not be taking place. It is about the integrity of the game.
(Everybody called him Charlie Hustle. I remember him sprinting to first on a walk, as if he were trying to beat it out.)
(Everybody called him Charlie Hustle. I remember him sprinting to first on a walk, as if he were trying to beat it out.)
There can be a compromise. Rose can be excluded from actively being involved in baseball in any capacity yet his accomplishments can be accepted. He was, after all, a fabulous player and his misdeeds occurred after he had retired from playing. His hit total could be accepted as is his other accomplishments. A special category for the Hall of Fame could be created (sort of like a "Hall of Fame with an Asterisk"). Into that separate category, I would also put Bonds, McGuire, Clemons and others who used illegal drugs. Plus, throw in Shoeless Joe Jackson from 1919 "Black Sox" scandal and others.
The analogy here is the way we look at our history. We don't pretend that we didn't have slavery for 200 years and that we had segregation in many parts of the country for a century after that. We don't pretend that we persecuted the Native Americans in grabbing land from them. We don't pretend that we got involved in imperialist wars (e.g., Cuba in 1898, Vietnam in 1965, Iraq in 2003) that caused more problems that they solved. Instead, we accept our history and try to learn from our mistakes.
Pete Rose is part of baseball history and needs to be acknowledged as part of that history, in spite of his failing in gambling. Again, accepting him into the Hall of Fame with an asterisk is the way to do it.
The analogy here is the way we look at our history. We don't pretend that we didn't have slavery for 200 years and that we had segregation in many parts of the country for a century after that. We don't pretend that we persecuted the Native Americans in grabbing land from them. We don't pretend that we got involved in imperialist wars (e.g., Cuba in 1898, Vietnam in 1965, Iraq in 2003) that caused more problems that they solved. Instead, we accept our history and try to learn from our mistakes.
Pete Rose is part of baseball history and needs to be acknowledged as part of that history, in spite of his failing in gambling. Again, accepting him into the Hall of Fame with an asterisk is the way to do it.
This is a reasonable approach. I would just add to it that while adding your asterisk, MLB should remove Roger Maris's and give him the recognition he deserves as holder of the Major League single-season home run record.
2
It wasn't as though the rule wasn't in place... cheat and out. Pete and Lance, cheats!
5
Oh..come on already..Rose was so exciting..and all those hits....let him in..it wasn't as if Ty Cobb was such a darling
3
The punishment should fit the crime. A life sentence is appropriate for murders, terrorists and the like, not gamblers.
3
It's not like cheatin' Pete is serving time in prison... just the one he put himself in!
3
Gambling addiction is a mental disorder and there should be some sympathy for Pete because he couldn't help himself. Guys like Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, ARod, and Mark McGuire, and many others were the top of baseball world but nevertheless took drugs to be even higher up the ladder for the money, for the prestige, naturally their sin is greater against the other players who didn't take drugs and were disadvantaged throughout. Pete never did such harm to so many other players and teams. Maybe he shouldn't be reinstated to baseball but he should be in the Hall of Fame since his playing was not involved in his transgressions and his playing was Hall of Fame quality, is there anyone who would dispute that?
13
Dependence upon substances is also a disorder. Let's be candid. Rose thought he could get away with it. Just like stealing home in his mind. He got caught and agreed to the punishment. Lesson learned.
1
Sorry. I know time has past and he is old, but Bart and Fay are/were correct. He does not belong in the Hall despite the astonishing number of hits. Neither do Barry Bonds or Clemens.
20
Rose played like an outlaw. Remember Ray Fosse. Remember Bud Harrelson. The outlaw persona fits him. In and of itself, his gambling may be borderline. but his repeated disrespect for the way baseball is played, in the abusive name of "hustle", along with his disrespectful gambling practices make it clear that he thought he was above the game. That's ample reason for denying him induction.
9
I remember him ruining another man's career by smashing into him during an exhibition game.
6
Ray Fosse, Cleveland, I think in an All Star game. It was the way the game was played. He did hu1stle - played hard. Had great success, all star at more different defensive positions than anyone, including Gil McDougal. The he broke the single inviolable rule the game has, and HAS had since 1919, the observance of which is requisite to remaining in good standing with the game.
The man bet on his own sport and his own team. He called into question every decision and choice he made as a manager since he had money involved in the outcomes. He put the integrity of the game itself at great risk - that's not what hall of famers do.
And he has been unrepentant. Far from repentant. Combative. Nasty.
If he had spent the lat 30 years apologizing, doing good work, being an ambassador of the game, and warning of the dangers of gambling - I'd probably be for it. He's been a jerk.
Giving this guy a spot is wrong, wrong, wrong. I can see his arrogant thumb-in-eye hall of fame speech clear as a day.
And it is the very last thing the already struggling game of baseball needs.
And he has been unrepentant. Far from repentant. Combative. Nasty.
If he had spent the lat 30 years apologizing, doing good work, being an ambassador of the game, and warning of the dangers of gambling - I'd probably be for it. He's been a jerk.
Giving this guy a spot is wrong, wrong, wrong. I can see his arrogant thumb-in-eye hall of fame speech clear as a day.
And it is the very last thing the already struggling game of baseball needs.
14
"He put the integrity of the game itself at risk"? Have you ever heard of the Color Ban? The reserve clause? Collusion? Pete Rose's transgressions are but a mosquito bite on baseball's integrity compared to what the owners and management of MLB have done over the last 115 years. Open a book, use Wikipedia, or something! Try: "Color Ban," "Reserve Clause," or "Collusion in Baseball" for starters.
"struggling game of baseball"? What sport are you talking about? Major League Baseball is enjoying an unprecedented spate of success; never before have they made so much money.
"struggling game of baseball"? What sport are you talking about? Major League Baseball is enjoying an unprecedented spate of success; never before have they made so much money.
1
I've lived with a funny coincidence all my life. I was named after Pete Rose by my father, who gambled professionally for a living. In his later years, he was unable to maintain his discipline and gambling turned from income source to problematic addiction. He gradually alienated his brothers and sisters, my mother and myself with his constant “borrowing”, theft, and lies. It’s a difficult thing to see as it’s happening, but things became quite clear when we suddenly lost our family home.
That said—I’m in support of the re-instatement of Pete Rose, IF it would provide an opportunity for him to actively speak out in depth against gambling and the dangers of addiction. It seems that there’s not enough spoken about the devastation of gambling addiction in a visible way—it’s something that’s much easier to glorify in Hollywood, or keep private in the real world. It’s a matter that brings great shame and confusion. If Pete Rose were to open up the conversation on gambling and bring it out of hushed tones, it could be tremendously helpful to another generation currently dealing with the problem.
I feel fortunate to have found my way in life despite my circumstance—but if the issue was spoken publicly rather than kept in totemic silence during my upbringing, a lot of damage may have been prevented. His re-instatement could be a great opportunity—not merely for statistical baseball—but really for those dealing with gambling addiction in their lives.
That said—I’m in support of the re-instatement of Pete Rose, IF it would provide an opportunity for him to actively speak out in depth against gambling and the dangers of addiction. It seems that there’s not enough spoken about the devastation of gambling addiction in a visible way—it’s something that’s much easier to glorify in Hollywood, or keep private in the real world. It’s a matter that brings great shame and confusion. If Pete Rose were to open up the conversation on gambling and bring it out of hushed tones, it could be tremendously helpful to another generation currently dealing with the problem.
I feel fortunate to have found my way in life despite my circumstance—but if the issue was spoken publicly rather than kept in totemic silence during my upbringing, a lot of damage may have been prevented. His re-instatement could be a great opportunity—not merely for statistical baseball—but really for those dealing with gambling addiction in their lives.
1
He should be helping the similarly afflicted anyway. It is a key part of recovery. Perhaps his speech should end with "DON'T DO IT! - YOU ARE RISKING EVERYTHING YOU SAY YOU LOVE. I KNOW.
Well there is this:
“The one rule that is read in every clubhouse, every spring training, for I don’t know how many decades, has been made clear that if this is violated, this is the consequence,” Molitor said. “Now, if they decide to make a change in the stance that they’ve taken to this point, you are going to say that every time we read that, we really didn’t mean it.”
Then there is this:
"In any case, it is hard to argue that Rose’s actions directly affected more games than the actions of some users of performance-enhancing drugs did. Ryan Braun, the Milwaukee Brewers star, tested positive after a victorious 2011 playoff game in which he went 3 for 4. Braun served a 65-game ban in 2013 and has been a member in good standing ever since."
Personally, given the latter, I can no longer buy the former -4,256 hits, a great ballplayer (though a none too bright manager).
“The one rule that is read in every clubhouse, every spring training, for I don’t know how many decades, has been made clear that if this is violated, this is the consequence,” Molitor said. “Now, if they decide to make a change in the stance that they’ve taken to this point, you are going to say that every time we read that, we really didn’t mean it.”
Then there is this:
"In any case, it is hard to argue that Rose’s actions directly affected more games than the actions of some users of performance-enhancing drugs did. Ryan Braun, the Milwaukee Brewers star, tested positive after a victorious 2011 playoff game in which he went 3 for 4. Braun served a 65-game ban in 2013 and has been a member in good standing ever since."
Personally, given the latter, I can no longer buy the former -4,256 hits, a great ballplayer (though a none too bright manager).
Sorry Rose supporters. Pete played to win games on the field, but when he managed he used his players to win illegal bets. Simply by betting, he gave bookies inside information that tainted the integrity of the games. Did he pull a starter to win a bet? Did he overuse a reliever to win a bet? No one knows but Rose. Then add the many years of denial, and remember that reinstating him and electing him to the Hall would be a great argument for "forgiving" the P.E.D. users.
Know what the hits leader, home run leader, and perhaps the CY Young awards leader have in common? They cheated the game, their teammates, the fans, and finally themselves.
No way. Rose knew the rules and he did not care. Baseball should not relent...not now, not ever.
Know what the hits leader, home run leader, and perhaps the CY Young awards leader have in common? They cheated the game, their teammates, the fans, and finally themselves.
No way. Rose knew the rules and he did not care. Baseball should not relent...not now, not ever.
48
Could not agree more.
Rose had a legendary career. That will not be forgotten. In fact, his treatment as a baseball pariah will likely add to his legacy. His accomplishments on the field put him among the very best ever. He is, in a sense, bigger than the Hall because his career is unforgettable in a way that applies to few Hall members. Rose's induction isn't necessary to acknowledge his accomplishments. It merely honors his contribution to the game. His gambling was an addiction, which should not disqualify him. But his choice to gamble on baseball fundamentally dishonored the sport he played. I don't see why he should be honored by baseball for achievements that he chose to compromise for no good reason.
23
Too big to fail, eh? That is becoming as much of an American mantra as motherhood, apple pie, and degenerate gambers
2
I am sorry Pete but you betted against baseball. I am betting against you. Besides, there is no crying in baseball. So, quit crying!!
2
Being 20 years old, I grew up in the PED era. My heroes were Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Clemens, etc. I know my stance may be "new school," but hear me out.
I honestly believe the MLB and the HoF should recognize the PED era and let guys like Bonds and Clemens into the hall. It's ridiculous to say "we're going to go ahead and ignore the accomplishments of some undeniably great ball players because they took PEDs, substances that plenty of big name guys were taking." You're talking about leaving out some of the biggest names baseball has ever seen, not to mention the career Cy Young and home run kings. The PED era is something baseball needs to acknowledge as a part of its history. No one can deny how exciting it was seeing guys hit 60+ HRs in a season. I'm not here saying that everyone should take PEDs, but it happened, it shouldn't happen again, now let's forgive those guys and move on.
Now for Pete Rose, I hold the same standard. He broke the rules, plain and simple. But he never cheated and he never bet against his team. Those are things to take into consideration. I don't think the "integrity of baseball" will be shattered if Rose is reinstated. Trying to shorten the game and putting up a pitch clock is far more detrimental to the game's integrity, if you ask me.
No matter how you look at it, these guys devoted their lives to a game they love. Baseball has made its point with Rose. It's time to forgive.
I honestly believe the MLB and the HoF should recognize the PED era and let guys like Bonds and Clemens into the hall. It's ridiculous to say "we're going to go ahead and ignore the accomplishments of some undeniably great ball players because they took PEDs, substances that plenty of big name guys were taking." You're talking about leaving out some of the biggest names baseball has ever seen, not to mention the career Cy Young and home run kings. The PED era is something baseball needs to acknowledge as a part of its history. No one can deny how exciting it was seeing guys hit 60+ HRs in a season. I'm not here saying that everyone should take PEDs, but it happened, it shouldn't happen again, now let's forgive those guys and move on.
Now for Pete Rose, I hold the same standard. He broke the rules, plain and simple. But he never cheated and he never bet against his team. Those are things to take into consideration. I don't think the "integrity of baseball" will be shattered if Rose is reinstated. Trying to shorten the game and putting up a pitch clock is far more detrimental to the game's integrity, if you ask me.
No matter how you look at it, these guys devoted their lives to a game they love. Baseball has made its point with Rose. It's time to forgive.
16
You don't seem to have any "standard" but a statistical one.
It is not about statistics. The people you mentioned all had "Hall of Fame" STATISTICS". They simply don't belong in the Hall of Fame.
It is not about statistics. The people you mentioned all had "Hall of Fame" STATISTICS". They simply don't belong in the Hall of Fame.
1
I am 37 years old. I also grew up in the PED era, starting with Canseco and McGwire in 1987, both my heroes back then. I, however, have enough respect and reverence for the history of past players and of the game that I could care less if these cheaters are recognized. I would actually prefer that they are not since I love baseball. Not baseball from '87 to present, as if that is somehow more valuable as the only era I was witness to, but it in it's entirety. From that grander context, these guys whose statistical numbers and accomplishments you so revere are exposed for the questionable greatness and cheaters that they are. On top of that, their accomplishments and history are recorded in the Hall. Honored as an overall player, they are not. Rightfully so. I'm very glad the baseball writers do not share your shallow point of view.
1
Why is it a foregone conclusion that Rose didn't bet against his team? He consented to a lifetime ban so that more facts were not disclosed to the public. It is not hard for me to imagine an addicted gambler covering his previous day's losses by betting against his own team. In fact, it is hard for me to believe otherwise.
Some entrepreneur should create a baseball museum separate from the Hall of Fame. It can honor the cheats, the gamblers, the weirdos, and the whacky ones. It can be about the business of baseball, the shenanigans of owners and drunken managers. In other words, the real baseball, from sandlots to billion dollar stadiums. Not the sanitized version of legends in the Hall. Build this museum and Pete Rose can be its first exhibit.
9
Charlie Hustle shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. We can't forget and we shouldn't forgive. Let him continue to peddle his autograph (what can it really be worth if he's done it so many times?) and let him remain on the outside looking in. Has he ever expressed any remorse? Has he ever apologized to the fans for acting like the fool he was?
9
There have been cheaters elected to the Hall, such as pitchers who defaced baseballs. Those players were altering the outcome of games. Rose did nothing to alter any games. In terms of hitting, he was a machine. He played with full energy 100% of the time. Of course he should be allowed back into the game. For what it's worth, the Washington Nationals baseball announcers said during a game last season that there is no question that he should be welcomed back.
4
That cinches it. We don't need no stinking rules. We'll let the media tell us what and how we should think and feel.
Lift the ban on Rose in 2019. Being banned for thirty years would certainly be enough of a deterrent to make the point to any player who could be deterred!
3
So according to your logic, go ahead and lie, cheat, gamble, and whine. If you wait long enough all will be forgiven and you'll get your place in the Hall if you have the stats. Induct him in the Hall of Shame along with all the other juicers like Sosa, Bonds, McGuire, A-Rod and Clemens. I remember when the great game of baseball was an honorable sport.
2
Carlton Fisk? Dang it - I meant Ray Fosse. Wheres my gingko?
1
I can't remember whether it was Giamatti or Vincent who referred to Baseball as a mere "game" or at least something as substantially less than the earthquake that dislocated parts of the SF Bay area during the As/Giants 1989 World Series. Whoever it was got it right; it is only a game - a great game, burt a game for all that. Rose is one of its greatest players. With hubris in the past, he deserves a break. Make him eligible and bring him into Cooperstown.
3
Its not the Hall of the Fame without the Hit-King.
History will reveal the greatest mistake of the Bud Selig era was denying baseball-fans and the game-of-baseball the presence of Peter Edward Rose. Anyone who listens to Pete Rose discuss baseball can only be immensely-impressed with his vast knowledge, insight, and keen analysis. Listen to his interviews and read what he has to say about baseball -- his acumen and his approach to the game -- to each and every pitch -- is astonishing. To deny baseball what is arguably one of the greatest BASEBALL MINDS IN THIS HISTORY OF THE GAME, is a worse travesty than to attempt to deny him this RIGHTFULLY-EARNED place in the HOF. To deny Rose entry into the HOF, and to keep him out of the game all these years, is not only one of the worst injustices in sports-history, but one of the worst injustices in American-history. THE TIME HAS COME.
PETER EDWARD ROSE.
HIT-KING
MOST-WINNING ATHLETE, ANY SPORT, EVER.
THE ONCE AND FUTURE HALL-OF-FAMER.
History will reveal the greatest mistake of the Bud Selig era was denying baseball-fans and the game-of-baseball the presence of Peter Edward Rose. Anyone who listens to Pete Rose discuss baseball can only be immensely-impressed with his vast knowledge, insight, and keen analysis. Listen to his interviews and read what he has to say about baseball -- his acumen and his approach to the game -- to each and every pitch -- is astonishing. To deny baseball what is arguably one of the greatest BASEBALL MINDS IN THIS HISTORY OF THE GAME, is a worse travesty than to attempt to deny him this RIGHTFULLY-EARNED place in the HOF. To deny Rose entry into the HOF, and to keep him out of the game all these years, is not only one of the worst injustices in sports-history, but one of the worst injustices in American-history. THE TIME HAS COME.
PETER EDWARD ROSE.
HIT-KING
MOST-WINNING ATHLETE, ANY SPORT, EVER.
THE ONCE AND FUTURE HALL-OF-FAMER.
1
So if Pete is all these things, why did he bet?
2
Don't overdo it with the greatest this
And greatest that,wiil you.
Yes,one of the best that ever played,
But also one of the dumbest,
None of us are without sin,
But he violated the most sacred
Rules of the gameMANY TIMES.
He cannot be allowed in the HOF.
And greatest that,wiil you.
Yes,one of the best that ever played,
But also one of the dumbest,
None of us are without sin,
But he violated the most sacred
Rules of the gameMANY TIMES.
He cannot be allowed in the HOF.
2
Most-winning athlete, any sport, ever? Good question. Pete Rose has some credentials, but probably doesn't even make it to page 1 on the list. For baseball, pick a Yankee (Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra, Ford, Reggie, Jeter, Mariano, etc.). For basketball, and probably for all of the big four sports, Bill Russell. Plus the other great Celtics, Michael Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Tim Duncan, Kobe and Shaq. For football, Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Terry Bradshaw, Bart Starr. For hockey, a bunch of Montreal Canadiens (Henri Richard won 11 Stanley Cups), Mark Messier, Bryan Trottier, etc. I (and most sports fans) could name a bunch of boxers, tennis players, and golfers too.
As for one of the worst injustices in American history, Pete Rose doesn't even rate a footnote. He broke the rule. Lied about it. Now paying the penalty. Also cheated on his taxes. I'm never going into the Hall of Fame either. I've learned to accept that. Why can't Pete?
As for one of the worst injustices in American history, Pete Rose doesn't even rate a footnote. He broke the rule. Lied about it. Now paying the penalty. Also cheated on his taxes. I'm never going into the Hall of Fame either. I've learned to accept that. Why can't Pete?
5
I agree that Mr. Rose should be in the HOF, and I would have him inducted shortly after he dies. This would balance his accomplishments and his personality.
6
Compared to other Hall of Fame players, Rose is sort of in the middle of the pack. He was probably one of the top 100 or so players of all time, His lifetime records are mainly because he played 6 years past when he should have retired, accruing numbers and underperforming. Top 50? Don't make me laugh.
Overall - a worthy career. He had a reputation for getting along with the African American players on his team as well in the early 60s. On the down side - Carlton Fisk.
All that hustle business. Was that hustle or was that a clever form of showboating? I could never tell.
I have no opinion on the matter. But if he is kept out - it probably isn't much different - ball player greatness wise than Gil Hodges, Tim Raines or Minnie Minoso or other similar players not getting voted in.
Overall - a worthy career. He had a reputation for getting along with the African American players on his team as well in the early 60s. On the down side - Carlton Fisk.
All that hustle business. Was that hustle or was that a clever form of showboating? I could never tell.
I have no opinion on the matter. But if he is kept out - it probably isn't much different - ball player greatness wise than Gil Hodges, Tim Raines or Minnie Minoso or other similar players not getting voted in.
2
Methinks baseball - as a sport and business - would lose far, far more than it would gain by turning a blind eye to repeated violations of one of it's cardinal rules just so that a single player can benefit.
4
Steroids? compared to betting? Please. Guys pumped themselves up to get
an edge and they're still hounding Rose, who got all his hits honestly.
MLB is a joke bordering on the NFL standards.
Elect Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame or disband it.
an edge and they're still hounding Rose, who got all his hits honestly.
MLB is a joke bordering on the NFL standards.
Elect Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame or disband it.
4
I continue to be astounded that a man who never tested positive for using banned substances (ever) is linked to Rose who, after a thrilling career broke the cardinal rule. I guess that's the way it goes, The power of innuendo and finger pointing I guess.
It's not about Pete Rose. It's about the integrity of the game. The fact that Rose wants to endanger that integrity for his own personal interest is telling and sad.
48
The integrity of the game? After Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Ty Cobb, the Black Sox Scandal, years of drinking and carousing by half the players, if not more, in the Hall of Fame? Oh come on! Pete would fit right in. Pro sports have about as much integrity as a used car salesman, and baseball is no exception.
8
@Art- Integrity? Since when is sports about integrity? The whole Idea of sportsmanship is a joke. The idea is to win at any cost. Some take steroids, some injure other players and some use tricks which haven't come to light yet. There is not such thing as integrity in sports, including baseball. Let's not pretend that Pete Rose has done something so terrible he can't be pardoned. By his record as a player he belongs in the Hall of Fame. Are you willing to remove all the other players with unsportsmanlike conduct who are Hall of Famers? Let it go already. There is no integrity in sports so let's not pretend anymore.
4
If you ever tried to hit a major league fastball following the a curveball changeup, you'd probably find some respect for Pete the sinner.
2
Right after they let Shoeless Joe Jackson back into baseball then Pete Rose can get in as well.
And there really is no comparison. Shoeless Joe never bet on baseball and he didn't take a dime.
And there really is no comparison. Shoeless Joe never bet on baseball and he didn't take a dime.
42
Jackson took $10,000 to throw the World Series. He confessed to this, and his wife also said that he took the money. During the World Series, Christy Matthewson pointed out that Jackson appeared to be throwing games. How can you support such a lack of integrity?
1
To be perfectly honest, I've never really understood Rose's punishment. He bet on the Reds to win -- absent the money, isn't every player and every coach betting on themselves, albeit metaphorically, to win?
Despite being a Yankee fan, as a kid when I got together with my friends after school to play baseball I often pretended to be Pete Rose -- (if I wasn't going to be Willie Randolph or Reggie Jackson or Thurmon Munson). Rose epitomized to me then (and now) what it meant to be a ballplayer. You went hard -- always. You didn't know how to take it slow. There was no fifty-fifty. I remember Jackson being criticized as a minor leaguer for not running to first when he popped up. That would never be Pete Rose's story.
Let him back in the game. Let him punch his ticket to the Hall.
Despite being a Yankee fan, as a kid when I got together with my friends after school to play baseball I often pretended to be Pete Rose -- (if I wasn't going to be Willie Randolph or Reggie Jackson or Thurmon Munson). Rose epitomized to me then (and now) what it meant to be a ballplayer. You went hard -- always. You didn't know how to take it slow. There was no fifty-fifty. I remember Jackson being criticized as a minor leaguer for not running to first when he popped up. That would never be Pete Rose's story.
Let him back in the game. Let him punch his ticket to the Hall.
9
Indeed, let him punch his ticket to the hall. Except not this hall.
Pete Rose deserves to be in the Scoundrels Hall of Fame. He can be enshrined as an inaugural member along with Lance Armstrong and Sammy Sosa and Roger Clemens and A-Rod. Heck, there's no reason why certain players can't be in both halls, so let's also induct Ty Cobb. There would be no discrimination based on sex, color or sport, so step right up, Tonya Harding, and congratulations.
I would actually visit a Scoundrels Hall of Fame (or, perhaps, Hall of Shame). We could see the remnants of Albert Belle's corked bat, Floyd Landis' used syringes, Barry Bonds' La-Z-Boy. The sneaker that Christian Laettner planted on the opposing player's chest. Evander Holyfield's ear.
Yes, I think that a Scoundrels Hall of Fame is a great idea. And you can bet, pardon the pun, that Pete Rose would plant himself right at the entrance to sign baseballs. For a price, of course.
Pete Rose deserves to be in the Scoundrels Hall of Fame. He can be enshrined as an inaugural member along with Lance Armstrong and Sammy Sosa and Roger Clemens and A-Rod. Heck, there's no reason why certain players can't be in both halls, so let's also induct Ty Cobb. There would be no discrimination based on sex, color or sport, so step right up, Tonya Harding, and congratulations.
I would actually visit a Scoundrels Hall of Fame (or, perhaps, Hall of Shame). We could see the remnants of Albert Belle's corked bat, Floyd Landis' used syringes, Barry Bonds' La-Z-Boy. The sneaker that Christian Laettner planted on the opposing player's chest. Evander Holyfield's ear.
Yes, I think that a Scoundrels Hall of Fame is a great idea. And you can bet, pardon the pun, that Pete Rose would plant himself right at the entrance to sign baseballs. For a price, of course.
5
Paul Molitor, the admitted cocaine user should know a thing or two about addiction and ultimately forgiveness and recovery.
3
Molitor hurt no one but himself by using cocaine. That's the difference. Betting on baseball threatens the integrity of the game. Using cocaine creates just one loser, the user.
1
True, but you missed my point...which was that I found it a bit ironic that Paul Molitor, of all people, is the tough guy in this situation, given his sketchy past. I have no problem keeping Pete out of the HOF. He broke the rules and he lied about it - just like Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro, McGwire, etc. I have no use for any of them.
1
I think it is safe to say that most pro athletes have cheated at one time or another, whether it's steroids, a corked bat or some other lack of good judgment which hasn't been found out yet. Look at the number of gold medal Olympians who swear they are clean until many years later when they admit to doping in a tearful news conference.
Pete Rose certainly had a lack of good judgment but did it affect his team? I don't think anyone has ever found any evidence for that. Since all the others cheaters haven't been discovered yet there is no reason to keep Pete Rose out of the Hall of Fame. Based on his career he deserves it. There are many in the Hall who should be removed for lack of good sportsmanship but they are still there. Let Pete in.
Pete Rose certainly had a lack of good judgment but did it affect his team? I don't think anyone has ever found any evidence for that. Since all the others cheaters haven't been discovered yet there is no reason to keep Pete Rose out of the Hall of Fame. Based on his career he deserves it. There are many in the Hall who should be removed for lack of good sportsmanship but they are still there. Let Pete in.
3
The ban is now beyond ridiculous--Pete Rose has served his sentence and then some. And no, I don't have a sliding moral scale–the power behind baseball does. Mr. Rose achieved his all-time leading hit total with his own natural talents; he wasn't among the players who besmirched the game's very counting stick--its hallowed statistics ledger--by drugging themselves into supernatural levels of ability. Place an asterisk next to Rose's name if that will square things morally, but recognize his never-to-be equalled achievements by granting him the only mercy he's ever wanted--to be recognized by the game as one of its greats.
4
I'm not a native Cincinnati resident, moved here when I was in my late 60's.
From the beginning it was clear how so many people here regard Pete Rose: he is an idol for those who saw him play, or were following the Reds while he wore the uniform. The local sports commentators never stop pushing for Rose to be reinstated and voted into the Hall of Fame.
All except for one important source, the Cincinnati Enquirer. This week this local newspaper has run an extensive 3-day report on the pro's and con's of the Pete Rose controversy. I'm sure it's been an education for
the 50% of the city who were not here in the Pete Rose years.
The report examines every detail and comes to the conclusion that
the Commissioner was correct in barring Rose from baseball for life, and
opposes his inclusion in the Hall of Fame. The conclusion paralleled
just what is on this column in the Times, and the reason was not so much
an indictment of Rose as it is a warning to future ballplayers.
And incidentally, this is the type of in-depth reporting that the digital
media would have a hard time showing -- each of the three days there
were front page articles leading to a double-page spread inside the
paper. The pure visual of this much digging is impressive to see, and would be lost on a digital tablet or an iPhone. Thank God for newspapers and
the job they do for communities across the nation.
From the beginning it was clear how so many people here regard Pete Rose: he is an idol for those who saw him play, or were following the Reds while he wore the uniform. The local sports commentators never stop pushing for Rose to be reinstated and voted into the Hall of Fame.
All except for one important source, the Cincinnati Enquirer. This week this local newspaper has run an extensive 3-day report on the pro's and con's of the Pete Rose controversy. I'm sure it's been an education for
the 50% of the city who were not here in the Pete Rose years.
The report examines every detail and comes to the conclusion that
the Commissioner was correct in barring Rose from baseball for life, and
opposes his inclusion in the Hall of Fame. The conclusion paralleled
just what is on this column in the Times, and the reason was not so much
an indictment of Rose as it is a warning to future ballplayers.
And incidentally, this is the type of in-depth reporting that the digital
media would have a hard time showing -- each of the three days there
were front page articles leading to a double-page spread inside the
paper. The pure visual of this much digging is impressive to see, and would be lost on a digital tablet or an iPhone. Thank God for newspapers and
the job they do for communities across the nation.
35
It reads pretty well online.
http://www.cincinnati.com/longform/news/2015/03/21/rose-investigator-pet...
http://www.cincinnati.com/longform/news/2015/03/21/rose-investigator-pet...
1
Well put. Thank you.
There is one, and only one, way Rose's ban remains a deterrent: he can never be brought back.
53
Except Rose's ban has not deterred much of anybody from doing anything.
3
Yes, Peter Rose not in the HOF and not in MLB. Ironically, Rose makes most of his money these days in Las Vegas, a place he's known well for a long time. Let him stay there. It is right and just.
Enough penance. He's more than served his punishment. Rose in the Hall!
4
He lied during the investigation, and he lied for fifteen years after. Betting on a game in which he was involved as a manager tainted their outcomes by providing him with a reason to abuse his power to get a win in THIS game, perhaps at the expense of his team.
What his team pays him to manage is what he gets for his work; anything he gets from anyone else is a conflict of interest. Keep him out, along with Clemens, Bonds and A-Rod too when it's his turn.
What his team pays him to manage is what he gets for his work; anything he gets from anyone else is a conflict of interest. Keep him out, along with Clemens, Bonds and A-Rod too when it's his turn.
51
The league bans a guy like this but let's Bud Selig escape responsibility for the steroid scandal that happened on his watch. Selig (and Rodriguez) should be banned on principal as well.
7
Have you ever heard this guy talk? He's a pompous jerk and can barely put a coherent sentence together. Ambassador for baseball? I don't think so.
1
You forgot that Bud Selig was the mastermind of collusion from 1984-87. He organized the conspiracy among all the owners to make sure no one would buy anyone else's free agents. And this man was Commissioner afterwards!
1
You forgot that Bud Selig was the mastermind of collusion from 1984-87. He organized the conspiracy among all the owners to make sure no one would buy anyone else's free agents. And this man was Commissioner afterwards!
1
I think the only reasons this matters to Rose are his arrogance and the possibility that he would be able to charge more money for his signature.
23
What is needed is for this case to be decided by a 3 judge panel. I nominate Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Alex Rodriguiz.
4
No. Pete Rose does not belong in the Hall of Fame. Barry Bonds doesn't belong in the Hall. Roger Clemens doesn't belong in the Hall.
Sure they all had great careers. So did Lance Armstrong. They all lied about their improprieties. Convincingly. So did Lance Armstrong.
Rose was a gifted hitter and a dynamic player who bet on baseball games that he played in. He has no business being in the same organization as Mike Schmidt or Lou Gehrig, two men who would have done almost anything to honorably win games.
Sure they all had great careers. So did Lance Armstrong. They all lied about their improprieties. Convincingly. So did Lance Armstrong.
Rose was a gifted hitter and a dynamic player who bet on baseball games that he played in. He has no business being in the same organization as Mike Schmidt or Lou Gehrig, two men who would have done almost anything to honorably win games.
40
Ty Cobb?
Pete Rose should be. in the Hall of Fame. How baseball can continue to snub the Hit Man is appalling. Rose was kind of a jerk, a first-class no-class guy, but if a player's character was important, half the HoF would be ineligible. On the merits, Rose needs to be recognized.
4
"In November 2002, Schmidt flew to Milwaukee to accompany Rose, who had steadfastly denied betting on baseball, to a meeting with Selig." So Schmidt was lied to by Rose but now is an advocate for forgiving him for deceiving baseball in general, and Schmidt in particular? All the times I've seen Rose news clips, interviews since he admitted to gambling (part of a strategy of reinstatement, I never got the sense he was the least bit remorseful over what he did. Only over getting caught. Keep him out, and keep those home run and Cy Young kings out with him. They are in many ways more despicable than Pete: gaining their big numbers by cheating, and continuing to lie to this day. I'm sure we'll eventually see an admitting of guilt in a last ditch attempt to gain access to the Hall.
11
He played harder than any professional athlete I've seen in the last 40 years, never cheated and is the all-time leader in career hits. Time to put him in the Hall
5
[[He played harder than any professional athlete I've seen in the last 40 years.]]
Jeter.
Jeter.
3
Umm. Betting is cheating.
3
Generally, I'm all for forgiveness. But in this case I believe it's best to keep him out of baseball and the hall of fame. The reason being the singularity and emphasis on that rule in the game. Rose knew the consequences and now he's suffering them. I realize it's a kind of sickness to be a gambling addict or however you want to characterize it, but in this case i believe the punishment fits the crime.
34
It is possible to forgive Rose his transgressions and acknowledge his accomplishments on the field while also keeping him out of the Hall of Fame.
1
Pete Rose never bet against his team. With all the money legally bet on baseball each year, it's a travesty that his is still banned from baseball.
He should be in the Hall of Fame.
He should be in the Hall of Fame.
4
Re: "Pete Rose never bet against his team."
So far as we know, you mean. After all, he denied betting at all for decades. In any case, if you start by betting for your team, you end by betting against your team. At the very least Rose was well on the road.
So far as we know, you mean. After all, he denied betting at all for decades. In any case, if you start by betting for your team, you end by betting against your team. At the very least Rose was well on the road.
1
Nope. No Hall of Fame for Pete Rose. End of discussion.
43
If only as a coach he discovered and gave all his players PEDs, then his World Series bonus would be higher than his gambling wins; there would be no reason to gamble because of the early PED advantage; and he'd be in the Hall of Fame.
2
A Rose by any other behavior would be a hall of famer. There can be no flexible ethics on the gambling on the sport in which one participates. While other offenses from Cobb to Clemens to McGwire can be rationalized - the gambling idea upsets the entire conceit of competitive sports and the fans on which they depend. Honor and integrity are not in short supply in baseball history and we should be re-telling the story of Curt Flood or Mariano Rivera instead of wasting energy on this sad man.
6
Why would major league baseball want young players to believe that betting on baseball is really not as bad as we say it is. Unless he affected the integrity of the game as a player, he should be allowed to be on the ballot for the Hall of Fame. He was a champion's champion competitor as a player. But as he never reformed, keep him out of the game.
7
He didn't cheat or use steroids and played harder than any professional athlete I've seen in the last 40 years. It's time to put him in the Hall
4
Gambling IS cheating. In any case, two wrongs don't make a right: If you think the steroid users are getting off easy then complain about THAT; don't complain about a violator being duly punished.
2
The difference is, Barry Bonds has never been proven to have used PEDs.
Pete Rose was a great player, there is no denying it. He was one of the cogs in the Big Red Machine of the 1970s. And his hitting record of 4,256 hits may last as long of Babe Ruth's home run record or Lou Gehrig's consecutive game streak.
But, Mr. Rose broke the cardinal rule of baseball; not betting. This goes back to the 1919 so called "Black Sox" Scandal. They only other time, in baseball in which players received life time bans fro gambling.
Certainly, Mr. Rose knew the risks and the consequences of what he did. And, at the time, got the punishment he deserved. But, is Mr. Rose rehabilitated from committing the ultimate crime of baseball?
If Mr. Rose, is indeed rehabilitated, and remorseful for what he did, then Major League baseball show examine the Pet Rose of today. And if they find that Mr. Rose has learned his lesson, and paid the price, then he should be reinstated in good standing.
But, by his reinstatement it does not mean a special favor is being performed here. Whatever happens in the future, it should be noted, even if inducted in the Baseball Hall of fame, that Mr. Rose's record does include betting on baseball. You cannot erase the past, but still can recognize teh accomplishment.
But, Mr. Rose broke the cardinal rule of baseball; not betting. This goes back to the 1919 so called "Black Sox" Scandal. They only other time, in baseball in which players received life time bans fro gambling.
Certainly, Mr. Rose knew the risks and the consequences of what he did. And, at the time, got the punishment he deserved. But, is Mr. Rose rehabilitated from committing the ultimate crime of baseball?
If Mr. Rose, is indeed rehabilitated, and remorseful for what he did, then Major League baseball show examine the Pet Rose of today. And if they find that Mr. Rose has learned his lesson, and paid the price, then he should be reinstated in good standing.
But, by his reinstatement it does not mean a special favor is being performed here. Whatever happens in the future, it should be noted, even if inducted in the Baseball Hall of fame, that Mr. Rose's record does include betting on baseball. You cannot erase the past, but still can recognize teh accomplishment.
1
People keep forgetting that the HOF and MLB are two distinct entities. It was only after MLB banned Rose for life that the HOF instituted a policy that a person must be in good standing with MLB to be eligible for HOF. So, there's no reason to conflate Rose's reinstatement with MLB with his eligibility for the HOF, all the needs happen is for the HOF to retract this rule it made up exclusively to keep Rose out. Ban Rose for life, let him into the Hall.
4
A wild lack of ethics is beyond a "big error." There is no reason to excuse gambling on games that your own team was playing in. No reason at all.
65
This was not a youthful mistake. Rose bet on games when he was a manager. He knew the rule and this is the consequence. Gambling could very easily ruin the game.
7
No one has excused Pete Rose for gambling on his own games. He has been banned from baseball for 26 years, which is long past time he should be publicly forgiven. He certainly has paid a huge price and he has suffered greatly from it. This is a case where Pete Rose deserves a pardon. The only person he hurt was himself. Baseball's response has more than made an example out of Mr. Rose, but if Baseball refuses to show Mr. Rose mercy at this point, the Commissioner will lose his leadership as a fair arbiter for the sport. Where are the people who got hurt by his inexcusable behavior? They are nowhere to be found. Baseball is not perfect and neither are its participants. Did Pete Rose take performance enhancing drugs? I have never heard him accused of that. He is the iconic player who worked harder than anyone else.
23
I have to side with Mr. Molitor on this one. Baseball had already been "saved" once, over 40 years prior to Pete Rose's rookie year, and not, as most would have us believe, by the wild popularity of Babe Ruth. It was Judge "Kennesaw Mountain" Landis, who barred both suspected participants and perceithose suspected of having knowledge of the "fixing" of games by members of the Chicago White Sox during the 1919 World Series.
Had he not acted, it is doubtful the game would have suffered the blow to its perceived (I believe substantially REAL) integrity as to the honesty of its completion. Pete Rose left us something we desperately need in public life, something that without the harshest penalties providing consequence for betrayals of that integrity, we cannot have. That something is shame. For this reason, I believe it is in the best interest of baseball (and us) have Pete take his appropriate place next to Shoeless Joe - a bright glowing talent, revered by many, remembered by most, tragically tainted footnotes to the historical richness that has been baseball. Great drive and achievement - sure.
Hall of famer - not for my children, or their children to see in Cooperstown. Not ever. This has to be the only way it works.
Had he not acted, it is doubtful the game would have suffered the blow to its perceived (I believe substantially REAL) integrity as to the honesty of its completion. Pete Rose left us something we desperately need in public life, something that without the harshest penalties providing consequence for betrayals of that integrity, we cannot have. That something is shame. For this reason, I believe it is in the best interest of baseball (and us) have Pete take his appropriate place next to Shoeless Joe - a bright glowing talent, revered by many, remembered by most, tragically tainted footnotes to the historical richness that has been baseball. Great drive and achievement - sure.
Hall of famer - not for my children, or their children to see in Cooperstown. Not ever. This has to be the only way it works.
7
Enough is enough. He was one our best and never on PEDS.