The system has some wiggle room. So? It still is ghastly.
2
I wish Mr. Hubbard would have mentioned that punishment for murder varies depending on the religion of the victim. I wonder if a non-Muslim accused of killing a Muslim, particularly a Saudi national, would get a reprieve.
4
I just checked the InterNet for lists of countries with lowest crime rates. Saudi Arabia was not on any of the lists, "Harsh but Able to Spare the Rod" notwithstanding.
4
Crazily unjust is crazily unjust. I would hope Ben Hubbard is not trying to justify the workings of the thoroughly frightening Saudi Arabian "legal" system, but I am not sure.
At least they are honest about the money they pay so that mercy can be shown.
3
I live in the USA and am a lawyer who has represented many clients facing the death penalty. The Saudi system resembles ours in that the successful outcome is dependent on the power of the defense resources as well as on the arbitrary application of mercy.
10
That Muslim countries insist on adhering to Islamic tradition in their legislation is just a lame excuse to flout the UN Declaration of Human Rights! Saudi Arabia can have its own way because of its oil wealth. It has the US as its ally at the UN. The rich and the powerful there see themselves above the law! They indulge in vices and get away with impunity!
Indeed the authoritarian regime sees subversive activities more of a threat than mundane crimes like murder, robbery etc.
Indeed the authoritarian regime sees subversive activities more of a threat than mundane crimes like murder, robbery etc.
6
The Saudi capital punishment system is essentially similar to that in the US. There are crimes that authorize death as punishment and a process that is greatly effected by the power of the accused' support system and the arbitrary application of mercy.
5
Interesting case study. Muslim countries are bedeviled by the loose integration, over the centuries, of religious law (shari’a), national and local custom, and royal prerogative, nowadays modified to various degrees by influences from Western secular codes (which are also pretty inconsistent in their own ways). In pre-Islamic Arabia (as in many ‘traditional’ societies elsewhere), capital cases were subject to the law of retribution (lex talio): the killer was supposed to be killed by a relative of the victim. When this system was integrated into Islamic practice and the State sometimes took responsibility for punishing the killer, the victim’s family generally retained the traditional right to accept a negotiated (or fixed) payment in lieu of execution. This is now the practice in Iran and several other states claiming an Islamic legal foundation. As we see, this joker in the pack can be a useful check on the asininity of ‘justice’, or a promoter of it, depending on your take on the particular case.
3
When your legal system is based on barbaric,superstitious nonsense you're going to get many transgressions of justice.
6
Let them have their way to paradise. Ideally, this culture would not exist on Earth. Infortunately, it does. The correct thing to do would be to stop all relations, diplomatic, commercial, cultural.... with the countries where this behavior apply. Issue no visa to their citiizens to come to the West or migrate to our countries. extend no protection to Westerners who want to go there. On the other hand, let's stop our exploitation and invasions of their land. We must pretend that they do not exist, be consistent and stand firm.
Radical... but unless we take that way we will end up exterminating them... or they exterminating us. We should review the file every generation, to see if tolerance has grown that woulld permit more contacts. But be prepared to wait a few centuries.
Pierre JC Allard
Radical... but unless we take that way we will end up exterminating them... or they exterminating us. We should review the file every generation, to see if tolerance has grown that woulld permit more contacts. But be prepared to wait a few centuries.
Pierre JC Allard
2
I find it quite interesting that in a nation where women have little or no power, the forgiveness of a woman is what spared his life. Talk about your major contradiction!
4
The article mentions that the Sharia courts have a problem dealing with "Fraud". By contrast, stealing a loaf of bread, upon which Sharia is clear, is dealt with harshly. By focusing on the graphic details, this piece paints a picture of enormous cultural difference between the legal systems of Saudi Arabia and the United States.
I lived in Saudi Arabia for years, and what strikes me is how similar our two legal systems really are at their core: White Collar crimes where the theft is in the millions or more are lightly or unpunished; while petty crimes, especially those committed by discriminated groups (in our case, minorities, in their case, guest workers) are harshly or overly punished.
In Saudi Arabia, "too big to jail" has been the mantra for bankers, Royals, swindlers of imported goods and services and local partners of foreign brands. Wall Street would have no problem with the Saudi system.
I lived in Saudi Arabia for years, and what strikes me is how similar our two legal systems really are at their core: White Collar crimes where the theft is in the millions or more are lightly or unpunished; while petty crimes, especially those committed by discriminated groups (in our case, minorities, in their case, guest workers) are harshly or overly punished.
In Saudi Arabia, "too big to jail" has been the mantra for bankers, Royals, swindlers of imported goods and services and local partners of foreign brands. Wall Street would have no problem with the Saudi system.
23
But for the likes of those paragons of human and civil rights China, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia and North Korea, America would also lead the world in executions. To match America's exceptional record in mass incarceration with 25% of the world's prisoners with only 5% of the Earth's people.
5
Can America do ANTHING RIGHT for some of you?
I am shocked by some of these comments comparing
America to the likes of countries that behead people
For adultery or for being gay.
If the far left fringe of the Democratic party keeps
This up(and you are well represented here today)
We may very well lose the NEXT election.
I am shocked by some of these comments comparing
America to the likes of countries that behead people
For adultery or for being gay.
If the far left fringe of the Democratic party keeps
This up(and you are well represented here today)
We may very well lose the NEXT election.
3
Nothing about Islamic "justice" impresses me.
6
I don't think Islamic justice is concerned whether it impresses you or not.
1
Nice try, but these mercy cases fit a particular set of circumstances: impulse crime, two male Saudi citizens from respected tribes and similar socioeconomic class; and of course, plenty of blood money paid to the victim's family, sometimes via government loans whose entire principle is "forgiven" on the eve of some future Eid (the end of Ramadan).
I'm pretty sure there's never been a case of a Bangladeshi (Muslim) guest worker being pardoned for killing his cruel Saudi boss, let alone an Indian (Hindu) or Filipino (Christian) guest worker.
In any case, the strict application of Sharia won't save the Saudi Royals from ISIS, because they lack legitimacy and are too friendly with the West. Those conservative Saudi clerics mentioned in the article and at odds with the Royals, would flip to ISIS in a New York minute.
Of course the Royals know this. That's why they now want to build a wall between KSA and Iraq to rival the Great Wall of China.
I'm pretty sure there's never been a case of a Bangladeshi (Muslim) guest worker being pardoned for killing his cruel Saudi boss, let alone an Indian (Hindu) or Filipino (Christian) guest worker.
In any case, the strict application of Sharia won't save the Saudi Royals from ISIS, because they lack legitimacy and are too friendly with the West. Those conservative Saudi clerics mentioned in the article and at odds with the Royals, would flip to ISIS in a New York minute.
Of course the Royals know this. That's why they now want to build a wall between KSA and Iraq to rival the Great Wall of China.
4
We should have treated Saudi Arabia like the enemy it was on 9/11.
6
Bravo!
At long last
Some common sense.
At long last
Some common sense.
2
You probably agree that they still are our enemy. But they are an enemy with financial interests in common with powerful American interests. Many corporations and powerful people would lose money if we treated Saudi Arabia like the enemy they are. So peaceful civilians and American soldiers are killed by groups financed by wealthy Saudis. I guess that is the cost of buying oil from and selling weapons to Saudi Arabia.
4
"Many Muslims believe that saving a life, even that of a murderer, earns one rewards in heaven."
First I've heard of that. Mostly the picture I get is blood and gore: beheadings, amputations, lashes. I always wonder what century these punishments were designed for- 8th, 12th, 15th? I know it's culturally insensitive to ask, but have there been any studies to show the deterrent effect of such punishments? Of course not- it's tradition- good enough for the eighth century, good enough for us.
Somehow it seems incongruous that a country we do so much business with and generally support as one of the saner residents in their neighborhood, still follows an ancient brutal system of punishment. But then I think of some of the really bad guys we've supported in the past. And of course there's our own insistence on carrying out capital punishment with badly concocted drugs. Maybe we all need to work toward living in the 21st century. We're not there yet
First I've heard of that. Mostly the picture I get is blood and gore: beheadings, amputations, lashes. I always wonder what century these punishments were designed for- 8th, 12th, 15th? I know it's culturally insensitive to ask, but have there been any studies to show the deterrent effect of such punishments? Of course not- it's tradition- good enough for the eighth century, good enough for us.
Somehow it seems incongruous that a country we do so much business with and generally support as one of the saner residents in their neighborhood, still follows an ancient brutal system of punishment. But then I think of some of the really bad guys we've supported in the past. And of course there's our own insistence on carrying out capital punishment with badly concocted drugs. Maybe we all need to work toward living in the 21st century. We're not there yet
6
How many innocent people have been executed (or convicted) in the U.S.? 30%?, 40%?. How many innocents have been executed in the Kingdom? How about ZERO.
Is this a joke? Cultural relativism at its' worst.
Also, it's not just human rights groups who say that the Saudi state has laws that are used to punish non-violent dissidents. Saudi Arabia proudly admits to this.
Also, it's not just human rights groups who say that the Saudi state has laws that are used to punish non-violent dissidents. Saudi Arabia proudly admits to this.
3
Seriously.
The *granting of mercy* by a victims family is a handy device under Sharia law often used to protect the murderers in so-called honor killings, and its routinely invoked in Afghanistan and Pakistan--both countries moving ever closer to the Saudi version of Islam.
Note to fellow commenters: yes, of course there are appalling judicial and societal flaws in all countries, not least in the US. One can recognize ones own failures while noting the failures of others.
The continuance of the artificially-created Saudi monarchy depends on rigid social control. The wealthy are free to enjoy all the benefits of Western society on their frequent trips or long residences abroad, while the middle-class and poor are not. Why would the leaders have any interest in change? Small liberalizations are like dog treats thrown to a starving beast who never gets a full meal.
Islam--with its many sects and many interpretations and implementations of Sharia--as varied a religion in outlook and practice as Christianity and Judaism--has been hijacked by the guys with the most money. The Saudis have destroyed Pakistan and kept Afghanistan in the 10th century.
The gentleness of this storys headline is appalling. So much for investigative journalism in the American free press.
But I guess well continue with the fiction of them being the good fanatics, though they birthed ISIS and keep its engines well-lubricated.
The *granting of mercy* by a victims family is a handy device under Sharia law often used to protect the murderers in so-called honor killings, and its routinely invoked in Afghanistan and Pakistan--both countries moving ever closer to the Saudi version of Islam.
Note to fellow commenters: yes, of course there are appalling judicial and societal flaws in all countries, not least in the US. One can recognize ones own failures while noting the failures of others.
The continuance of the artificially-created Saudi monarchy depends on rigid social control. The wealthy are free to enjoy all the benefits of Western society on their frequent trips or long residences abroad, while the middle-class and poor are not. Why would the leaders have any interest in change? Small liberalizations are like dog treats thrown to a starving beast who never gets a full meal.
Islam--with its many sects and many interpretations and implementations of Sharia--as varied a religion in outlook and practice as Christianity and Judaism--has been hijacked by the guys with the most money. The Saudis have destroyed Pakistan and kept Afghanistan in the 10th century.
The gentleness of this storys headline is appalling. So much for investigative journalism in the American free press.
But I guess well continue with the fiction of them being the good fanatics, though they birthed ISIS and keep its engines well-lubricated.
8
This is a bit confusing. At one point, the article said all heirs must agree to pardon the culprit from death. They were waiting for a 3 year old boy to reach adolescence. Then a daughter secretly signs a pardon and all is well?
Maybe I misunderstood or misread this, but where does it say all the heirs, including the boy they were waiting on, also agreed to the pardon?
Maybe I misunderstood or misread this, but where does it say all the heirs, including the boy they were waiting on, also agreed to the pardon?
1
79 beheadings in 2013. 45 so far this year. Mr. Hubbard should have given us some statistics regarding the justice system in Saudi Arabia.
3
The Saudi's got it right with their Sharia law for execution. It keeps it in the family. A murder needs to be avenged by those immediately affected--the murders family and the victims family.
Liberals here need to pay attention. Executing our members of society by injecting poison into them is is cruel and unusual punishment.
Liberals here need to pay attention. Executing our members of society by injecting poison into them is is cruel and unusual punishment.
How ironic that a sheikh who is deeply invested in the misogynistic status quo targeted a young woman and, behind her family's back, pressured her to use her only power for his own ends.
3
I cannot wait for the glorious day when these people no longer have oil...
7
A long article devoted to one example of clemency granted a murderer, but only the briefest mention of Raif Badawi, sentenced to 1000 lashes (likely permanently crippling if not fatal) for his political writings.
That's an odd notion of mercy.
That's an odd notion of mercy.
5
Ever hear of Snowden?
2
I'm surprised it was the mercy of the 17 year-old female was able to tip the scales of justice in this case. I'm glad to know that a female's voice counts for something under Sharia law. Their voices should be heard from more often. Blessed are the peacemakers.
5
Beheading a criminal for murder is no more or less "humane" than lethal injection. Being led to your place of certain death and then being killed is the worst part of the punishment, no matter what the method.
The Saudi justice system is barbaric because they don't prosecute most rapes, put gay people to death, and hand out the death penalty to people who dare to leave the faith of Islam (apostasy). It is ridiculous to debate whether chopping off a man's head for becoming a Buddhist is less humane than injecting him with poison.
The Saudi justice system is barbaric because they don't prosecute most rapes, put gay people to death, and hand out the death penalty to people who dare to leave the faith of Islam (apostasy). It is ridiculous to debate whether chopping off a man's head for becoming a Buddhist is less humane than injecting him with poison.
5
I share the consternation of many who have posted here!
Maybe, the next reporting will describe how ISIS have saved the lives of so many hostages from hostile nations because their countries paid handsome ransoms.
Maybe, the next reporting will describe how ISIS have saved the lives of so many hostages from hostile nations because their countries paid handsome ransoms.
4
Given what articles like this describe, is it not surprising that Sunni Islam is the seed from which most terrorism germinates? How ironic that so much of this religion-inspired violence is directed against the Shiite sect of Islam.
7
The point is that religiously motivated violence is not historically unique to Islam, contrary to what many uneducated people seem to believe.
This does not make the violence any less despicable.
This does not make the violence any less despicable.
4
I just have to ask myself what is the NYT motivation in trying to make Saudia Arabia look good, when clearly, it is not. Is it that it is better than other places? Friendly to America? Not openly hostile to Israel? Still, can't we just call it what it really is without trying to sugar-coat it?
7
I viewed this article as a learning opportunity, chose to read it, and didn't come away thinking the NYT was trying to make Saudia Arabia "look good", or that they had any motivation to do that. It's interesting, factual information.
2
Maybe there are some good safeguards in Saudi law, but serious problems remain. Sexual transgressions are punished severely, and they seem to have fewer avenues for mercy.
Rape victims can face an especially terrible bind. Rape is a capital crime, but absent a confession by the rapist(s), conviction requires 4 male witnesses (or 8 females), a standard victims can rarely meet. And in reporting rape, the victim must "confess" to extramarital sex, itself considered a crime. So the victim may well face severe punishment while the perpetrator walks. So much for true justice.
Rape victims can face an especially terrible bind. Rape is a capital crime, but absent a confession by the rapist(s), conviction requires 4 male witnesses (or 8 females), a standard victims can rarely meet. And in reporting rape, the victim must "confess" to extramarital sex, itself considered a crime. So the victim may well face severe punishment while the perpetrator walks. So much for true justice.
6
Re: "Saudi Justice, Harsh but Able Spare the Sword," news-article, March 22, 2015.
The subtleties and niceties of the Sharia penal system the Saudi government is addicted to may be of interest to jurists, but not to fierce critics of capital punishment like me. I still remember, with absolute horror, the beheading, couple of years ago, of a small, frail, Sri Lankan maid, accused of murdering the new-born infant of the family she worked for. She didn't know Arabic, and she was denied a lawyer who did. Rights groups from around the world appealed for clemency toward the alleged killer of the baby, who denied it vehemently in Sinhalese, her mother tongue. The image of the white-clad and tall executioner walking around the tiny and kneeling Sri Lankan, his long sword flashing in the desert sun, haunts me even today. I turned the video off before the executioner performed his Sharia duty.
The Saudi rulers need not worry about their gory legal system dying; ISIS
is keeping it very much alive.
The subtleties and niceties of the Sharia penal system the Saudi government is addicted to may be of interest to jurists, but not to fierce critics of capital punishment like me. I still remember, with absolute horror, the beheading, couple of years ago, of a small, frail, Sri Lankan maid, accused of murdering the new-born infant of the family she worked for. She didn't know Arabic, and she was denied a lawyer who did. Rights groups from around the world appealed for clemency toward the alleged killer of the baby, who denied it vehemently in Sinhalese, her mother tongue. The image of the white-clad and tall executioner walking around the tiny and kneeling Sri Lankan, his long sword flashing in the desert sun, haunts me even today. I turned the video off before the executioner performed his Sharia duty.
The Saudi rulers need not worry about their gory legal system dying; ISIS
is keeping it very much alive.
13
We have our own gory incarcarceration and execution system. Surely you've heard of some states going ahead with executions, despite some failures of the secretive lethal injection meds working properly--causing what anyone would call cruel and unusual punishment. We could talk about DNA exonerating some already executed; some on the execution block. Money "buying" justice. On and on. I don't agree w/Sharia law or Saudi treatment of women, but the US is no shining beacon by which to set an example.
3
The Saudis are to be congratulated. They have managed to forestall any social progress in their kingdom for 1.500 years. Superstition and ceremonial orthodoxy enforced by violence have held the nation pure and untouched by a millennium and a half of time.
Like Belém, the rubber capital during that commodity's boom, Saudi Arabia is now enjoy its couple centuries of great wealth while preserving the essential character of its people and culture. Once the oil is all gone or no longer needed elsewhere, like Belem which went back to jungle, the entire Saudi state can return to its natural state--sand blown desert. The rich will have become Westerners and the bulk of the people will live just as they always have, ignorant and controlled by superstition and orthodoxy.
In between the times of only desert, Saudi Arabia will have exported oil and racialism, but otherwise left no mark on the world.
Like Belém, the rubber capital during that commodity's boom, Saudi Arabia is now enjoy its couple centuries of great wealth while preserving the essential character of its people and culture. Once the oil is all gone or no longer needed elsewhere, like Belem which went back to jungle, the entire Saudi state can return to its natural state--sand blown desert. The rich will have become Westerners and the bulk of the people will live just as they always have, ignorant and controlled by superstition and orthodoxy.
In between the times of only desert, Saudi Arabia will have exported oil and racialism, but otherwise left no mark on the world.
13
A pretty good analysis of the modern state known as Saudi Arabia, however Saudi Arabia in its current form as a state began with its foundation in 1932 by Abdulaziz Al Saud, although the human history of the region that is now Saudi Arabia extends as far as 20,000 years ago. With the advent of Islam, the "holy" cities of Mecca & Medina, which happened to be located in that territory, came under the jurisdiction of the modern house of Saud, which is basically a product of post-WWI re-mapping after the end of the Ottoman Empire.
3
I do not agree. Saudi Arabia has arguably done more than any other nation to create and spread Islamic radicalism and terrorism. Saudi Arabia's Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda was the equivalent of Lenin and his Bolsheviks . Bin Laden's al Qaeda served as the instigation and inspiration for a movement every bit as ruthless and bloody as the Bolsheviks' communism. Of course the Bolsheviks were able to create and use the resources of an immense nation, the Soviet Union, and after WWII those of eastern European nations as well, to further the communist cause in other parts of the world, whereas the Islamic radicals have yet to take over or create a viable nation or "caliphate" from which to spread its odious ideology. But to say the radical Islamist movement that sprang forth primarily from Salafist Saudi Arabia "left no mark on the world," is absurd.
Just like the history of the latter half of the 20th Century was dominated by the Cold War against Soviet communism, the history of the 21st Century thus far has been dominated by the "War on Terrorism" against Islamic radicalism. However, we can thank the gods for the idiocy of the leadership of the Islamic radicals like Isis, al Qaeda and Boko Haram. Instead of moderating their ideology and behavior as the Soviet communist leaders did in order live in cold peace with the West, the morons who rule the Islamic radical groups have invited their complete annihilation by the West. There will be no cold war with or containment of them.
Just like the history of the latter half of the 20th Century was dominated by the Cold War against Soviet communism, the history of the 21st Century thus far has been dominated by the "War on Terrorism" against Islamic radicalism. However, we can thank the gods for the idiocy of the leadership of the Islamic radicals like Isis, al Qaeda and Boko Haram. Instead of moderating their ideology and behavior as the Soviet communist leaders did in order live in cold peace with the West, the morons who rule the Islamic radical groups have invited their complete annihilation by the West. There will be no cold war with or containment of them.
1
Oh good! Let's try and humanize this barbaric and primitive form of law. Just like we try and humanize the ISIS killers who happen to live in Minneapolis.
13
Oh good Kumbayah's all round. We were all wrong Saudi's aren't barbaric throwbacks whose monarchy and government keeps them in the mental state of barbarian nations of centuries ago which most of the human race grew past. Oh wait the article says that it actually is all that, and apparently being openly told so we are supposed to ignore it and "see" the inefficiency of the system as proof it isn't exactly what it is. Seriously bribing the victims for mercy from an unjust legal system is justice?
A system of judicial retribution is the very essence of barbarism and the antithesis of the principles of US system, which is why the GOP embraces it so firmly.
This system, a monarchy is basically the mirror image of DPRK. In the one nation the people are held in check by fear and starvation, in SA they are paid to be docile and kept in luxury, in both cases the people have no freedom to be human beings in the world in their own nation. They are like veal calves kept in pens that prevent development. Like all people or animals kept in a pen they eventually lose touch with reality and start living in a reality that is supplied by the authority, they create willfully or comes unbidden to them.
Is it any wonder the insanity of hyper religiosity and jihad have in the main come from SA?
You want to rehab SA's image? End the Monarchy, end Shariah law & make all men and women equal and free.
A system of judicial retribution is the very essence of barbarism and the antithesis of the principles of US system, which is why the GOP embraces it so firmly.
This system, a monarchy is basically the mirror image of DPRK. In the one nation the people are held in check by fear and starvation, in SA they are paid to be docile and kept in luxury, in both cases the people have no freedom to be human beings in the world in their own nation. They are like veal calves kept in pens that prevent development. Like all people or animals kept in a pen they eventually lose touch with reality and start living in a reality that is supplied by the authority, they create willfully or comes unbidden to them.
Is it any wonder the insanity of hyper religiosity and jihad have in the main come from SA?
You want to rehab SA's image? End the Monarchy, end Shariah law & make all men and women equal and free.
11
Only a little more than twice as many executions in Saudi Arabia as in the United States? For less than ten percent of the population? That:s not too many?
9
Wow! What an outrageous fluff piece! The weaker-minded among us might be led by this "article" to conclude that the Saudi justice system is that of a liberal utopia. Let's get a quick reality check, by way of Wikipedia:
"Criminal law punishments in Saudi Arabia include public beheading, stoning, amputation and lashing. Serious criminal offences include not only internationally recognized crimes such as murder, rape, theft and robbery, but also apostasy, adultery, witchcraft and sorcery. In addition to the regular police force, Saudi Arabia has a secret police, the Mabahith, and "religious police", the Mutawa. The latter enforces Islamic social and moral norms. Western-based human rights organizations, such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, have criticized the activities of both the Mabahith and the Mutawa, as well as a number of other aspects of human rights in Saudi Arabia. These include the number of executions, the range of offences which are subject to the death penalty, the lack of safeguards for the accused in the criminal justice system, the treatment of homosexuals, the use of torture, the lack of religious freedom, and the highly disadvantaged position of women. The Albert Shanker Institute and Freedom House have also reported that "Saudi Arabia's practices diverge from the concept of the rule of law." "
"Criminal law punishments in Saudi Arabia include public beheading, stoning, amputation and lashing. Serious criminal offences include not only internationally recognized crimes such as murder, rape, theft and robbery, but also apostasy, adultery, witchcraft and sorcery. In addition to the regular police force, Saudi Arabia has a secret police, the Mabahith, and "religious police", the Mutawa. The latter enforces Islamic social and moral norms. Western-based human rights organizations, such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, have criticized the activities of both the Mabahith and the Mutawa, as well as a number of other aspects of human rights in Saudi Arabia. These include the number of executions, the range of offences which are subject to the death penalty, the lack of safeguards for the accused in the criminal justice system, the treatment of homosexuals, the use of torture, the lack of religious freedom, and the highly disadvantaged position of women. The Albert Shanker Institute and Freedom House have also reported that "Saudi Arabia's practices diverge from the concept of the rule of law." "
17
This is probably the best system yet so far when it comes to dealing with criminals and thugs. Look at america now, a land of druggies, disgraceful women, and millions in jails. There is much to be learned from saudis. In Saudi you feel safe walking down th estreet, while in america you ae always looking around for thugs abd criminals.
3
And in Saudi Arabia you don't have to worry about female drivers, free speech, due process or civil liberties! Now that is what many of America's founders died for.
1
Still, I'd rather not watch someone being beheaded or lashed, or see people without their hands.
3
What exactly do you mean by "disgraceful" women? what about disgraceful men? Are you advocating that we stone adulterers, cut off the hands of thieves and lash people 100 times for minor infractions? What next, public TV broadcasted beheadings, where if you are lucky, I guess, you'll have a front row seat.
6
What is truly ironic is the 17 year old girl, who cannot drive a car alone, go out without a male family member, show her ankles, arms, face etc., suddenly has become all powerful in this situation. I don't believe in the death penalty because mistakes are made. Calling Saudi justice "harsh" is typical of the wave of understanding we are now supposed to drum up for a culture Americans have never been able to comprehend or accept, thankfully. From the treatment of women, children, gays, Christians, there is no reciprocal attempt at understanding or acceptance. Are we to now look at sword amputations/beheadings in a favorable light because without them there would be chaos in the Middle East? It doesn't seem to be working. Our system may not be perfect, but I thank our Founding Fathers for having faith in man and recognizing that barbarity is unacceptable. It isn't harsh, it's inhuman. And let's hope we always see it that way.
22
Once you are acculturated to it, most systems of justice come to make sense.
They have a logic and they offer some expectations about the relationship between bad deeds and retribution.
In America in the 21st century we abhor allowing schools to use physical punishment against children.
For several years in my boyhood I was in a boarding school in another country. In my school caning (being struck with a cane) was central to the disciplinary system.
I was a fairly mischievous lad and most Fridays at 4PM I would be in the queue outside the headmasters study awaiting my punishment(s). There was a document that related crimes and punishments, so each misdeed that managed to find its way into the discipline book (many of my misdeeds remained un-recorded, thank goodness!) has a specified number of canings (either of the palm of the hand for "misdemeanors" or on the bottom for "felonies").
I considering my future behavior I would weigh the chances of getting caught and the known punishment for getting caught and decide just how mischievous I was prepared to be.
After receiving the caning one wasrequiered to look the headmaster in the eye and say "Thank you, sir, I deserved that" after which you departed the study and beckoned the next lad in.
In retrospect I see that system as reasonable and even civilized. I certainly do not see it at brutal or barbaric.
Law, punishment and culture are inextricable.
They have a logic and they offer some expectations about the relationship between bad deeds and retribution.
In America in the 21st century we abhor allowing schools to use physical punishment against children.
For several years in my boyhood I was in a boarding school in another country. In my school caning (being struck with a cane) was central to the disciplinary system.
I was a fairly mischievous lad and most Fridays at 4PM I would be in the queue outside the headmasters study awaiting my punishment(s). There was a document that related crimes and punishments, so each misdeed that managed to find its way into the discipline book (many of my misdeeds remained un-recorded, thank goodness!) has a specified number of canings (either of the palm of the hand for "misdemeanors" or on the bottom for "felonies").
I considering my future behavior I would weigh the chances of getting caught and the known punishment for getting caught and decide just how mischievous I was prepared to be.
After receiving the caning one wasrequiered to look the headmaster in the eye and say "Thank you, sir, I deserved that" after which you departed the study and beckoned the next lad in.
In retrospect I see that system as reasonable and even civilized. I certainly do not see it at brutal or barbaric.
Law, punishment and culture are inextricable.
6
Agree that most 'systems of justice' have their own motivating logic, but that doesn't mean they are 'just' or consistent with what we have come over time to consider fundamental human rights. Where do you draw the line on cultural relativism? The Taliban probably have a self-consistent system that cuts off hands and allows 'honor killings'. Even IS' radically orthodox application of Islamic law (all duly justified by quotations from the Quran) probably has a logic to it. But that doesn't mean it's not completely insane. Same with ultra-orthodox ruthless cannibalistic capitalism as practiced in the U.S. It is certainly possible that you had come to enjoy your caning experiences, but that might just be Stockholm Syndrome. There are always sympathetic advocates for abuse even from some of the abused. Female genital mutilation, the whole horrific litany - all have their internal cultural 'logic'. That ain't good enough.
13
I didn't "enjoy" caning, but I came to accept the notion of school justice that included it. That is what constitutes legitimacy for a legal system. If most people find the basic principles to be fair and their application to be fair, then the system has legitimacy for those people.
An American feminist would not find the Saudi legal system to meet the test of legitimacy.
Many Saudi women do.
And they are not suffering from Stockholm syndrome. They see the legal system upholding principles they have learned from their parents and had reinforces by religious teaching in the mosque.
Much the way you and I have come to accept the general principles of American justice.
An American feminist would not find the Saudi legal system to meet the test of legitimacy.
Many Saudi women do.
And they are not suffering from Stockholm syndrome. They see the legal system upholding principles they have learned from their parents and had reinforces by religious teaching in the mosque.
Much the way you and I have come to accept the general principles of American justice.
1
This created educated Englishmen. A sub-breed of humans that has ruled the World for about 300 years. For better or for worst; the jury is stll out. But let's not say something silly, like : "there is no link betwee the education system and the society that evolved...
Pierre JC Allard
Pierre JC Allard
1
Some have written that we should try SA's sharia law here & see if it controls crime .. Really? Let's not. SA is not a country we should ever emulate. Nor should the tenets of sharia law ever be applied in a secular country. Our ally. Saudis Arabia, is the birthplace and nurturer of Wahhabism, the extreme fundamentalism followed by those of groups like isil. And the rich Saudis are known to pay off extremists to keep their own hides safe. A despicable ruling group that cares nothing for anyone but their own over the top luxuries, and uses and abuses poor and desperate immigrants. There is nothing about SA that should be emulated.
19
It would be silly to propose importing Sharia to the United States.
That is not to say that enlightened Sharia cannot provide justice to people who are culturally attuned to Islamic thought.
Different laws for different cultures.\
JUSTICE, at some very abstract level, may be universal, but LAW is most decidedly local.
That is not to say that enlightened Sharia cannot provide justice to people who are culturally attuned to Islamic thought.
Different laws for different cultures.\
JUSTICE, at some very abstract level, may be universal, but LAW is most decidedly local.
3
Yeah... we have barbarians for allies! And those same allies are directly responsible for the 9-11 attack and they support ISIS. Have any questions?
18
The article seems to imply we to appreciate the restraint the Saudi government used in this instance.
Ridiculous. Until women are treated equally, Saudi Arabia will be stuck in the dark ages.
Ridiculous. Until women are treated equally, Saudi Arabia will be stuck in the dark ages.
22
Until the twentieth century women in America were treated very unequally. Women could not vote. They had abridged legal rights and financial rights.
Was America in 1910 a nation in "the dark ages"?
Think. Ms Cujar, before making such sweeping judgments.
Was America in 1910 a nation in "the dark ages"?
Think. Ms Cujar, before making such sweeping judgments.
3
"Was America in 1910 a nation in 'the dark ages'?"
To answer: yes.
Think, JOHN, before asking such self-explanatory questions.
To answer: yes.
Think, JOHN, before asking such self-explanatory questions.
2
What fraction of all the women in the world had the franchise in 1910?
America was modern by the standards of the age. Few nations in the world saw America as a land in the dark ages in 1910.
We became more modern in 1920 when the 19th amendment became law.
Think, Lippity, before offering a pc response.
America was modern by the standards of the age. Few nations in the world saw America as a land in the dark ages in 1910.
We became more modern in 1920 when the 19th amendment became law.
Think, Lippity, before offering a pc response.
1
I am guessing but I think somebody at the Saudi embassy was happy to supply all of the information needed for this so-called news. You see, boys and girls, the Saudis are almost as progressive as we are and here's the proof. As for Christians and Jews in Mecca, I don't think so. As for recognition of Israel, not this year. As for women considered as equal to men, not too likely. As for Saudi justice, in your dreams.
22
What a pathetic fundamentally flawed system of belief prevades this whole planet, empowering its worst psychopaths, while the fundamental flaw is held to be unspeakable.
Everybody who claims to know what "God" thinks about human affairs is just taking God's name in vain to make their own opinion unimpeachable.
Everybody who claims to know what "God" thinks about human affairs is just taking God's name in vain to make their own opinion unimpeachable.
30
The part where the victim's family can forgive a murderer reminds me of the impact testimony we have in this country. In both cases I find it troubling. I guess I prefer the idea that crimes are actually committed against all of us, against our expectations of how society is supposed to work. That's why the cases are called "The People versus so-and-so". Whether or not the victim had a family that can make an eloquent appeal, or in the Saudi case, is willing to accept a large amount of blood-money in exchange for mercy, shouldn't be a factor in sentencing. Maybe it would be more fully just in our case if anyone were able to testify on behalf of the victim - some eloquent Clarence Darrow could try to express the value of the life of a marginal victim with no family - or in the Saudi case, if anyone were able to officially forgive the criminal - why should it have to be a blood relative? One busy "pardoner" could save the whole awful system...
7
Thank you New York Times for your article, it was balanced.
I live in a country, 30 years of a police state status, that has for the past 15 years permitted more human rights, on the lines of Europe and America. So, I have 45 years of experience, I own a business employing directly 800 people, I say, bring back the police state status. I have seen crime and disrespect soar! How much better it was when the police were tough, but, I mostly saw them as fair, though, not perfect.
I have also witness Americans sneaking a couple of bottles of wine into Saudi Arabia in the trunk of their car, openly hiding them. The Saudi's choose to ignore it and let them drive into Saudi. I also had a high school friend arrested in Saudi, when he went on a weekend visit with his tolar of hashish, the Saudi's arrested him, he spent some months in jail after which he was sent on to the States.
Another American friend witnessed an execution in a Saudi square, he was somewhat shocked, but, he felt everybody there was respectful and solemn and understood the message.
Saudi Arabia is much more safe and secure than America. I disagree with killing anybody, however, proper justice is necessary to maintain order.
How many people are in American prisons, locked in isolation, minimal chance for rehabilitation? How many should be jailed but will never see the inside of a court room, read Bush, Rumsfeld, Chaney, etc., that is not justice.
I live in a country, 30 years of a police state status, that has for the past 15 years permitted more human rights, on the lines of Europe and America. So, I have 45 years of experience, I own a business employing directly 800 people, I say, bring back the police state status. I have seen crime and disrespect soar! How much better it was when the police were tough, but, I mostly saw them as fair, though, not perfect.
I have also witness Americans sneaking a couple of bottles of wine into Saudi Arabia in the trunk of their car, openly hiding them. The Saudi's choose to ignore it and let them drive into Saudi. I also had a high school friend arrested in Saudi, when he went on a weekend visit with his tolar of hashish, the Saudi's arrested him, he spent some months in jail after which he was sent on to the States.
Another American friend witnessed an execution in a Saudi square, he was somewhat shocked, but, he felt everybody there was respectful and solemn and understood the message.
Saudi Arabia is much more safe and secure than America. I disagree with killing anybody, however, proper justice is necessary to maintain order.
How many people are in American prisons, locked in isolation, minimal chance for rehabilitation? How many should be jailed but will never see the inside of a court room, read Bush, Rumsfeld, Chaney, etc., that is not justice.
7
SA is safe if you are born there and have obey. Try being a poor immigrant desperate to earn a living. It is a place where women are subjugated and anyone who speaks out against the ruling class or "Allah" can be executed. Maybe you should live there for a while and see how happy you would be. You certainly couldn't offer your opinion as freely as you do here.
13
But at least gay people still keep their heads on their shoulders here!
Assuming that meets with your cultural relativist approval!
Assuming that meets with your cultural relativist approval!
1
Perhaps many do not comprehend the fact that Saudi Arabia of today was a creation of the West the US in particular. It was grown out of the ruins of the Turkish caliphate and based essentially on Arabism as against the Turkish named Ottoman Empire. This aspect of pardon exists in the Traditions it is just that the ruling elites wont use it often perhaps to preserve their legitimacy and old off any aspiring youngsters with Liberal democratic tendencies. The payment wasn't a monetary inducement perse, in fact the "blood money" for a slain Muslim is about a hundred heads of camels and you could work out what that amounts to even though camels are no longer viable commodities nowadays but the gold alternative is available. It is discretion that the Courts are allowed to use but little understood just as in many Societies because the language of the Law is difficult to put in conrxrx in mnay instances.
3
And I bet there won't be a peep out of Obama condemning the brutality of Saudi Justice. Why should he? Obama deliberately cut short his trip to India so he could pay homage to the new Saudi King. Obama was all smiles in Saudi Arabia because he clearly feels comfortable there.
7
Remember George W Bush holding hands with the leader of thr Saudi delegation when he visited the U.S.? All of our Presidents have maintained cordial relations with the Saudis, the Chinese and many other countries that follow human rights standards that differ from ours. It's called foreign policy and keeps the gears of world interactions moving smoothly. We do protest human rights violations but we have limited ability to interfere in other countries. We also aren't privy to private conversations between our own Presidents and other world leaders; therefore, we don't know just what protests have been lodged by our leaders. That is important to diplomacy. A friend of mine used to say, "Empty wagons make a lot of noise."
10
Obama cut short his visit to India not because he feels comfortable in Saudi Arabia, but because, driven by our hunger for oil, the state department recommended it. If anything, both Obama and Mrs Obama were very uncomfortable with Saudi customs. Oil is also the reason why ex President George H Bush bowed to the Saudi King while visiting him. I find that offensive.
The 911 hijackers were all Saudis yet, while the nation's skies were under a complete lock down, a plane load of Saudis including a Saudi princess, who was under investigation for providing funds to the 911 hijackers, was allowed to take off and fly to safety in Saudi Arabia. Not one news organization in America followed up on the story after initially reporting it. Our free press turned out to be not so free after all. Oil is king!!
The 911 hijackers were all Saudis yet, while the nation's skies were under a complete lock down, a plane load of Saudis including a Saudi princess, who was under investigation for providing funds to the 911 hijackers, was allowed to take off and fly to safety in Saudi Arabia. Not one news organization in America followed up on the story after initially reporting it. Our free press turned out to be not so free after all. Oil is king!!
7
And then there are countries like those in Scandinavia where mass murderers, like the one who killed young people on that island retreat, cannot be executed because the countries don't believe that such evil killers should be killed. I once had a defendant who had shoplifted 47 times in Atlanta. Finally the state changed the law so that recidivists could be prosecuted as felons, since he'd always gotten 12 months or less. So over he came to felony court when he shoplifted at a big mall. Jury convicted, without knowing of his priors, and judge gave him the max of 10 yrs to serve when I presented some of the priors in sentencing. But the time the defense lawyer had prepared his motion for new trial, the guy was already released by the state because shoplifting is not a serious crime in overcrowded prisons. The defendant was Iranian, and in Irana had had one hand and arm cut off just below the elbow over there for stealing. Didn't slow him down a bit.
4
The Iranian man sounds mentally ill - compulsive. I suppose cutting of his other arm would have stopped the stealing, but not helped the man. Mentally Ill people are a challenge our society has not yet figured out his to cope with. Jail or prison, which is supposed to reform, does not usually help mentally ill people.
10
Saudi Arabia is a country where people are beheaded for cursing Allah proven by the testimony of two witnesses. Millions of foreigners from poor countries are working there in slavery conditions. The country is a black hole; and it owes its existence to the vast petroleum reserves it owns.
21
Stop spreading lies; those workers earn decent salaries with which they support families back home. If it was so bad they would not be going there in flocks.
2
Whatever its faults, it would be interesting to apply Saudi justice to this country for five ears and then see what the crime situation looked like. My guess is that crime rates, recidivism & prison populations would all plummet, and the ones squealing most would be actual criminals (or their next of kin, when they can be identified) and the trial lawyers who make their money keeping them from punishment.
Actually, although the punishments differed, the philosophy underlying the Saudi system isn't much different from that in this country until the past half century or so - the focus was on protecting law-abiding society, gaining retribution for the victims of crimes and punishing criminals. We (or the courts) have largely reversed that since the Warren Court's days - does everyone feel safer in their homes and on the streets? I don't.....
Actually, although the punishments differed, the philosophy underlying the Saudi system isn't much different from that in this country until the past half century or so - the focus was on protecting law-abiding society, gaining retribution for the victims of crimes and punishing criminals. We (or the courts) have largely reversed that since the Warren Court's days - does everyone feel safer in their homes and on the streets? I don't.....
2
Interestingly, the violent crime rate in the US has been dropping like a brick for the past few decades. Yet most Americas mistakenly believe the crime rate is going up. Why? the so-called news media panders to our attraction to spectical and has increasingly focused on crime stories and victim drama to boost ratings. The politician conclusion becomes questionable.
4
.....and trial lawyers who make their money keeping them from punishment.
Is that a suggestion that there should be no defense attorneys? I think the many that were wrongly convicted in Texas, and other states, to be found not guilty after decades in prison might disagree with you.
Perception that someone is going to break down your doors is in some ways a result of being deluged with information about crime across the country, and sensationalized beyond belief. The facts are, crime in this nation is on a downward spiral and the odds that you will be a victim is very low.
Is that a suggestion that there should be no defense attorneys? I think the many that were wrongly convicted in Texas, and other states, to be found not guilty after decades in prison might disagree with you.
Perception that someone is going to break down your doors is in some ways a result of being deluged with information about crime across the country, and sensationalized beyond belief. The facts are, crime in this nation is on a downward spiral and the odds that you will be a victim is very low.
1
We do not need Sharia law in America. Crime has been going down steadily in America over the last several years - including in cities like New York and Chicago. That is not the trend is in Saudi Arabia.
The Saudis had no compunction in giving a woman the prescribed Sharia punishment for driving a car or arguing with a man, but a confessed murderer escapes the prescribed punishment because an impressionable teenager is persuaded (without her parents being present) by school authorities and advocate(s) for the murderer to sign a pardon! We can do without this wacky justice system
The Saudis had no compunction in giving a woman the prescribed Sharia punishment for driving a car or arguing with a man, but a confessed murderer escapes the prescribed punishment because an impressionable teenager is persuaded (without her parents being present) by school authorities and advocate(s) for the murderer to sign a pardon! We can do without this wacky justice system
3
The real problem with islamic law is not how the justice system executes murders. The real problem is that a Saudi is not allowed to ask critical questions about sharia law. If a Saudi asks a critical question about the islamic law he will be punished to receive 1000 lashes (50 per week) and if a Saudi publicly expresses his doupts about islam , he will be condemed to death for being an apostate. If an atheist somewhere on the surface of this globe makes a satirical painting about Mohamed for his atheist readers, then he must be killed (Charie Hebdo journalists) according to many islamic teachers. These teachings are based on Hadits from Al-Bukhari and Ibn Ishâq that record what Mohemed ordered about some of his critics (ex. Bukhari, Sahih 2/17).
12
What will be interesting is an analysis of what happens to non-Muslims, and in particular, people not following the other semetic faiths (Christianity or Judaism). Hindus and Buddhists (from India, Nepal and the far east countries) who work in Saudi Arabia in large numbers remain highly vulnerable and subject to exploitation for this reason.
Adding to the complication, to someone not brought up in Arab tradition it is very difficult to understand all social nuances and risk of running afoul of poorly understood social customs or obscure laws remains high.
Adding to the complication, to someone not brought up in Arab tradition it is very difficult to understand all social nuances and risk of running afoul of poorly understood social customs or obscure laws remains high.
8
It is petrodollars that makes the "system" of. Saudi "justice" function. The best "justice" American dollars for oil can buy. Dirty not only because of physical pollution but also moral pollution.
By comparison the almost complete absence of human rights in North Korea and Iran are havens of justice compared the much worse situation in Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia is the quintessential lawless society because it has no criminal code. The legal system of Saudi Arabia consists of royal decrees and legal opinions of Muslim judges. It is a system based on the whims of men with horrifying misogynistic impulses NOT laws.
By comparison the almost complete absence of human rights in North Korea and Iran are havens of justice compared the much worse situation in Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia is the quintessential lawless society because it has no criminal code. The legal system of Saudi Arabia consists of royal decrees and legal opinions of Muslim judges. It is a system based on the whims of men with horrifying misogynistic impulses NOT laws.
14
“If there were no retribution,” Prince Faisal said, “there would be total chaos.”
Interesting comment. It would certainly be true in a fundamentally immoral society. In western society, we don't "fix" murder with $800,000 payoffs.
Interesting comment. It would certainly be true in a fundamentally immoral society. In western society, we don't "fix" murder with $800,000 payoffs.
10
we do fix murder with an expensive lawyer.
Is that greatly different from giving $800K to the victim's family?
If anything, the latter is a bit more humane.
Is that greatly different from giving $800K to the victim's family?
If anything, the latter is a bit more humane.
8
In the USA, if a life is lost or a person is harmed, we have civil law that seeks to "fix" murder with monetary compensation; for instance, lawsuits are filed to secure retribution beyond the criminal justice system.
3
Sharia Law is the antithesis of progressive; it is a barbaric belief system that is rooted in oppression and hate.
Period.
Period.
19
GWE, do you really have any idea of what the Sharia law really is? I doubt that you have knowledge of the Quran and hadiths which are the basis of Sharia law.
Given the history of America with regard to native Americans and African Americans, is there a belief system in America which is and was based om oppression and hate. When America dropped two atomic bombs on Japan was that a barbaric act justified by war. What other nations has as many armed private citizens as America.
Given the history of America with regard to native Americans and African Americans, is there a belief system in America which is and was based om oppression and hate. When America dropped two atomic bombs on Japan was that a barbaric act justified by war. What other nations has as many armed private citizens as America.
8
One could make the same observation about the three Levantine monotheisms:
** Judaism
** Christianity
** Islam
The scriptural texts of all three, when narrowly construed appear to promote intolerance and (at times) violence.
When more broadly construed, there is much redeeming value in the scripture and liturgy of all three ------ they are, in fact, remarkably alike when well understood.
** Judaism
** Christianity
** Islam
The scriptural texts of all three, when narrowly construed appear to promote intolerance and (at times) violence.
When more broadly construed, there is much redeeming value in the scripture and liturgy of all three ------ they are, in fact, remarkably alike when well understood.
1
Good statistics in the people:s world not like in Russia under the Bolsheviks. The mysterious Country, where poor people not the middle class were in power for so many years. Please note, I lived in Russia until I reached the age of 27 and saw life. They had the same problems as people have in the free world,so please take into consideration that Saudi Arabia is not an exception it;s just another peoples story on planet Earth.
Bruce Zaretsky
Bruce Zaretsky
3
While the majority of us westerners, specifically non-Muslims, still do not agree with the Saudi system, let us not forget that the alternative to their system is the ISIS system.
While fellow posters may reply that this is a tacit approval of the Saudi system, our foray into Iraq in 2003 started the chain of events that have led us to this difficult choice.
While fellow posters may reply that this is a tacit approval of the Saudi system, our foray into Iraq in 2003 started the chain of events that have led us to this difficult choice.
3
Let's remember the case of Raif Badawi -- sentenced to ten years in prison and to be publicly flogged (beaten) 1,000 lashes -- for blogging! How is that for Saudi justice!
18
Maureen, undoubtedly the Saudi's aren't a Western democracy. remember, we counted Joseph Stalin as an ally in WW2 and he may have killed more people than Hitler. And do all those owner of I phones care that are many people rotting in Chinese jails, while China pays its worker meager wages to produce Apple products. China is no more of a democracy than Saudi Arabia. Let face a fact, liberals and conservatives in America don't really care about the plight of people in foreign nations and the Saudis aren't as bad as Stalin.
2
I just happen to be a liberal in America -- and I do care. Hitler and Stalin did indeed teach us all a lesson - if you ignore these murderers they will only go on killing. Ignoring the barbaric reality of Saudi "justice" is, in reality, enabling it.
2
Really glad I don't live there but if we keep it going the liberals will do the same to us. We've already seeing politically correct speech. Our children are no longer allowed to be kids and coming soon we'll have to eat what is dictated to us. We are now forced to buy a product by changing it to a "TAX". It's a product that we're being taxed heavily on. What's so funny is the rights we lose to big government the liberals think the conservatives are taking.
5
"...the liberals will do the same to us." Must be scary in your private world... Glad I don't live there. As to taxing us "to buy a product," I assume you mean healthcare.
We're also taxed to buy national defense, public education, reducing environmental pollution, a justice system, epidemic prevention, protection of children, and, well, generally speaking, a civilized society. Wouldn't we be better off living in caves with no government at all? We'd be "free as a bird." How is it that humans left that existence behind in the distant evolutionary past? Whatever were we thinking.
We're also taxed to buy national defense, public education, reducing environmental pollution, a justice system, epidemic prevention, protection of children, and, well, generally speaking, a civilized society. Wouldn't we be better off living in caves with no government at all? We'd be "free as a bird." How is it that humans left that existence behind in the distant evolutionary past? Whatever were we thinking.
11
Liberals: anti-death penalty; pro due process; pro women's rights; pro free-speech etc. Completely unSaudi monarchy set of values. Conclusion: liberals are stealing childrens childhoods and dictating America's food choices. As Spock mkght have said, "Your conclusion is illogical."
2
Cruel though it may be, I see a lot of good. Clarity is one. You murder, you die. You steal, your hand is severed. And they do it so all can see. American justice is not nearly so certain nor fair. If you have the money you can hire lawyers that will bend the truth and get you off. If you're black, Latino or poor, you plead guilty whether you're guilty or not. We're in no position to toss stones.
6
I know we are certainly guilty of injustice in our treatment of minorities and poor folks. Our progress in clearing out racism, xenophobia, various sexisms, religious intolerance and economic inequality is too slow, and sometimes seems to go in reverse. However, when I hear things such as "we're no better than (fill in the blank, Saudi Arabia, ISIS, Hamas, etc) I ask myself one question that seems to clarify it for me.
Would I rather be a member of the opposition here in America, or over there? Disclosure: I'm still alive. In America.
Would I rather be a member of the opposition here in America, or over there? Disclosure: I'm still alive. In America.
8
The justice of the Saudi system is sound if you assume the courtroom process is sound and the convicted has $800,000 to buy a forgiveness of the victim's family. While the poor in the US do not have access to expensive lawyers, they are guaranteed the right to a lawyer at no cost. If I wanted a fair trial, I would rather be tried in a U.S. court than a Saidi court.
3
Justice under Sharia is defined as maintaining stability and not offending religion, a form of social consciousness modified by revenge. Freedom is for sale. It is not about someone being penalized for his crime but the effect on the community. The actual sentence is not firm against a set code but the opinion(s) of individuals. USA vs Sharia (whatever version, as there are many), I vote for the USA. If anyone living in the USA wants Sharia, there are many countries for you move to so we encourage you to go and submit yourself.
12
Freedom may or may not be for sale in the USA.
But I think we all know that justice is for sale in America.
But I think we all know that justice is for sale in America.
5
@John, It is not that "justice is for sale" so much as it is that the system which relies on individuals to implement it, can be corrupted by money and influence.
1
Ometimes it is simple. OJ Simpson could afford one of the most expensive trial lawyers in America.
I could not.
I could not.
2
I live in Saudi Arabia. Is this really a legal issue or a social order question?
I see daily the two faces of Saudi Arabia: veils and Gucci. On every corner of the large cities are huge malls with the ghostly shadows of women dressed in black snapping up designer clothes and purses. The Western values we have shared are consumerism not justice. The issue isn't immoral behavior since what happens in private here stays private. The issue in Saudi Arabia is to not rock the public order. As all societies deal with public acts that shake our values, we can judge the society based upon their responses. We watch systemic violence against minorities and the poor by our systems of justice and yet we are just as incapable of changing the ingrained historical roots of this injustice. Neither is better or "righter". Both, societies continue their trips to the mall behind real and unseen veils. Both societies want order and "justice". Body counts will not settle this debate any more than how many Gucci purses you own. In both cases, it will take a long painful review of the historical roots of injustice in both societies: Western and otherwise.
I see daily the two faces of Saudi Arabia: veils and Gucci. On every corner of the large cities are huge malls with the ghostly shadows of women dressed in black snapping up designer clothes and purses. The Western values we have shared are consumerism not justice. The issue isn't immoral behavior since what happens in private here stays private. The issue in Saudi Arabia is to not rock the public order. As all societies deal with public acts that shake our values, we can judge the society based upon their responses. We watch systemic violence against minorities and the poor by our systems of justice and yet we are just as incapable of changing the ingrained historical roots of this injustice. Neither is better or "righter". Both, societies continue their trips to the mall behind real and unseen veils. Both societies want order and "justice". Body counts will not settle this debate any more than how many Gucci purses you own. In both cases, it will take a long painful review of the historical roots of injustice in both societies: Western and otherwise.
6
So people have a 0.00001% chance of being executed in the US and a 0.00030% (thirty times higher) chance in Saudi Arabia. That is the US rate is too high and the Saudi rate 30x higher. Murdering murderers is barbaric.
7
What about the Saudi blogger who is still scheduled to receive 1000 lashes?
8
So,basically,-if you can raise enough money to pay of the heirs of your victim you can litterally get away with murder !! Interesting,to say the least!
10
What this item states is that the Saudis carry out “the word of God” when it suits them and will ignore it when it doesn’t. The fact of the matter is that the Saudi Wahhabi version of Islam is the narrowest and the most intolerant version of Islam. Sadly it is spread by Saudi money to Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and most of the Sunni Middle East, and has given rise to the likes of the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Al Nusra and ISIS. The sooner this medieval version of Islam joins the rest of medieval concepts such as slavery, sorcery, the subjugation of women, and using camels as the only source of transport the better.
9
The article mentions that there were 88 Saudi executions last year v. 35 in the US, without stating that the US population is well over ten times greater than the Saudi, thus Saudi Arabia execute persons at well over twenty times the US rate.
If you were accused of crime you did not commit, which system would you rather be tried under?
If you were accused of crime you did not commit, which system would you rather be tried under?
9
Well.-if I was rich and my victim was poor,and his heirs was made even poorer (and contrary to what many believe,there are many poor Sauidis),by my act,I sure know which system I would choose,no doubt abouth it,and it would not be the semi-civilsed US one !
Gideon's trumpet notwithstanding, more literate jury candidates ought to survive voir dire in our imperfect yet venerable system of justice. Jury duty is a poor substitute for an elementary school level of education.
1
women driving in Saudi Arabia is not based on Shariah or Saudi rules. It is Saudi society which is against women driving. If we conduct a survey or exit poll, we can find 80 percent of Saudi men and women oppose the move. I am not personally against women driving. What I am trying to say is that society is not yet prepared for women driving as they fear their women would get into harassments and accidents.
1
They fear letting women drive would make them too independent and difficult to control. I know--I lived there.
3
The whole world must understand that Saudi Arabia will never succumb to any pressure to change the way its judiciary and other organs of state function. This is because Islamic law underpins all these separate and autonomous bodies and entities. The judicial system is independent of the country’s executive, which means there is no interference in the decision of judges.
And nobody would care if they were not sitting on top of all that oil ...
10
What this article brings up is the basic east vs. west mentalities, in this case middle-east vs. west. All of our concerns about this is about Shariah, Islamic law, it is different from ours but it is the law of the land there. And from reading this article it is tempered and not written in stone, maybe not as nice and neat as our lawyers like but hey we're not in Kansas anymore.
"During an interview, Sheikh Shalash defended beheadings on what he called humanitarian and social grounds. For the condemned, he said, decapitation brings death faster than lethal injection or the electric chair."
While I'm opposed to the death penalty I certainly can't complain about the above statement from some the recent botched executions in the US.
"During an interview, Sheikh Shalash defended beheadings on what he called humanitarian and social grounds. For the condemned, he said, decapitation brings death faster than lethal injection or the electric chair."
While I'm opposed to the death penalty I certainly can't complain about the above statement from some the recent botched executions in the US.
All this leniency and sympathy, so called appeals, money etc only come come up when a Saudi National is on trial...they dont blink twice in case of foreign nationals especially from Asia and South East Asia. I request the author to come up with an article on pardoning of Non-Saudi nationals...and plz ask the lawyer how many of those 13 out of 17 were of Non Saudis.
9
for each jurisdiction, there is a source of laws. Our source is Quran and Sunnah, as it stated at the beginning of this article. As a Saudi lawyer, and MSU Law alumni, the main distinction between Saudi and U.S. litigation systems are interpretation of laws, and reasoning of rules.
While the rulings in the U.S. are clearly interpreted and based on a clear reasoning, the Saudi ones lacks of these two main cornerstones.
While the rulings in the U.S. are clearly interpreted and based on a clear reasoning, the Saudi ones lacks of these two main cornerstones.
1
Oh, I think you will find plenty of less than clear reasoning and interpretation in the US judicial system - here, it might take place more in the area where prosecutors decide what charges to bring, and defenders bargain for something to settle for - the death penalty, where it is on the books, is more of a threat, only occasionally and arbitrarily applied. I think it has more to do with coercing people into pleading to lesser charges, and testifying against their accomplices, than with actually preventing crimes to begin with.
It may well be true that the Saudi system is even more arbitrary than the US system, I wouldn't want to argue with that. But our "system" is no realm of clarity.
It may well be true that the Saudi system is even more arbitrary than the US system, I wouldn't want to argue with that. But our "system" is no realm of clarity.
1
Thank you for shedding light on a subject extremely misunderstood by the West. While the American justice system, by and large, lacks the prerogative of mercy , in Sharia, mercy plays a powerful role in bringing closure and facilitating rehabilitation, as the article shows.
In America, gone are the days when a judge, worried about his next election or mob judgement, could possibly think about applying mercy without being vilified by a 24-hour news public who know little about his case.
In Sharia, every affected person has the chance to apply mercy. In America, only the American president has that unconditional prerogative. In a nation of 240 million, that's hardly enough.
In America, gone are the days when a judge, worried about his next election or mob judgement, could possibly think about applying mercy without being vilified by a 24-hour news public who know little about his case.
In Sharia, every affected person has the chance to apply mercy. In America, only the American president has that unconditional prerogative. In a nation of 240 million, that's hardly enough.
10
Well,the problem is that its not the judge who applies mercy,its the relatv(s) of the victim,this seems incredible.This is clearly not a legal system by any meaningfull,21st century standards,since such a system is based on society aplying justice,not the victims family extracting revenge or doling out mercy,generally against considerable monetary compensation,efectivly creating a system that more or less openly makes it possible for the wealthy to commit the gravest crimes against the poor.
5
Yes. That is why thousands are emigrating to Saudi Arabia to live in peace, mercy, stonings and beheadings. If anything the article shows how grossly outdated and cruel Sharia is.
7
Justice in the West cannot play bias such as in coaxing mercy based on asset consideration. Rule of law must be uniformly applied outside of status or pay-off. Otherwise the uber wealthy could buy their way out of justice- which to a degree they do with expensive representation. There is a reason the statue of justice is blindfolded.
2
On one hand the ruling royal family of Al Saud wants to be put an end to extremism, but on the other hand they don't seem to realize that rulings of beheading and of 1000 lashes by the state are part of the extremism that they condemn. This calls for distancing most current clergy, particularly the mufti's who use traditions rather than the scripture to reach such religious rulings.
The ironic part is that even if some of the clergy knew better they still lack the courage and conviction to say it to the rulers for fear of being next in line for that head chopping. This has to be a top-down approach, which is what is being practiced in Egypt where president Abdel Fattah El-Sissi is speaking directly to the people and to Al-Azhar in order to change all school texts and use all media to promote the moderate understanding of Islam, and reject the centuries old versions of gross misinterpretation. The faster this is achieved in Egypt the easier it will be for Saudi Arabia to follow suit.
The ironic part is that even if some of the clergy knew better they still lack the courage and conviction to say it to the rulers for fear of being next in line for that head chopping. This has to be a top-down approach, which is what is being practiced in Egypt where president Abdel Fattah El-Sissi is speaking directly to the people and to Al-Azhar in order to change all school texts and use all media to promote the moderate understanding of Islam, and reject the centuries old versions of gross misinterpretation. The faster this is achieved in Egypt the easier it will be for Saudi Arabia to follow suit.
3
The justice system seems very temperate and laudable by 10th century standards.
I'm proud that this is what the Saudi princes learned during their studies at Harvard and Oxford. Thankfully, our moral relativism made its point.
I'm proud that this is what the Saudi princes learned during their studies at Harvard and Oxford. Thankfully, our moral relativism made its point.
12
Frankly, the operation of Saudi justice is neither less arbitrary nor fickle tnan our own.
"And instead of apologizing for its gruesomeness, he said gore was the point because it deterred crime."
No, it does not deter crime, it merely allows the executioner to celebrate sadism under the sanction of the law.
No, it does not deter crime, it merely allows the executioner to celebrate sadism under the sanction of the law.
9
Saudi Arabia's justice system is suppose to produce stability. It seems to be chaoic. For driving an automobile, women sit behind prison bars. Yet, when "royality" pleads for a murder's life, his breath is spared. Shariah law is suppose to stand on morality. However, in this backwards nation, terroists are born and bred. It is beyond sad that the U.S. and Saudi Arabia stand together in state sanctioned murder.
10
The article is nuanced and fair and a drop in the bucket, as it were, when it comes to describing the harshness of the Saudi system.
Adultery is punishable by stoning as is homosexuality under certain circumstances.
http://life-in-saudiarabia.blogspot.co.il/2014/10/crimes-punishable-by-d...
To their credit though they do not execute the mentally ill convicted of capital crimes, unlike certain states in the US.
Adultery is punishable by stoning as is homosexuality under certain circumstances.
http://life-in-saudiarabia.blogspot.co.il/2014/10/crimes-punishable-by-d...
To their credit though they do not execute the mentally ill convicted of capital crimes, unlike certain states in the US.
4
I think that the real underlying issue here is not that they behead or that they have Shariah law. Rather the issue is that the system is capricious and corrupt. It's not even Shariah proscribes specify punishments for common crimes - murder and drinking alcoholic beverages. It's not beheading people, it's that they really have no system and refuse to reform things so that at least it's fair and balanced, just like Fox news or the US system.
Rgrds-Ross
Rgrds-Ross
4
Silly statement once more by a liberal. Just like Fox news or the US system? What exactly does that mean? How is any of the liberal media any better than Fox because they don't report news they find may disturb the liberal mind?
One thing is sure - no such arbitrary use of punishment can be called a "justice system."
6
If I may sharpen the focus on one example in this article, the "liberal blogger caned for criticizing religious leaders," is named Raif Badawi. The expression "caned," with its connotation of punishment meted out to schoolboys, doesn't quite convey the severity of Mr. Badawi's sentence. The correct word is "flogged." He has been sentenced to one thousand (1000!) lashes, to be inflicted 50 at a time. His first flogging so weakened him that no further ones have been carried out thus far. But 19 more sessions, another 950 strokes of the bastinado, await Mr. Badawi when he recovers his health--if he ever does. Meanwhile he will continue to serve the ten-year prison sentence he was also handed, along with a $267,000 fine. Mr. Bawdawi's defence attorney was also thrown in jail for 15 years, just for good measure.
16
There are many ways to assess the quality of justice. Fairness, by way of consistency, is of tremendous importance. Absent consistency, the people don't know what to expect. Justice in the U.S. is quite arbitrary -- vastly different sentences for the same crime, long periods of incarceration for minor crimes and vice versa. When it comes to justice, we live in a glass house and should be hesitant before throwing stones.
5
So mandatory sentencing is good, circumstances don't matter, and judges don't ever exercise discretion based upon thier experience and expertise?
1
Saudi Arabia has the lowest crime rate in all over the world and the credit goes to such strict laws. You like them or not but they are in the best interest of the locals.
Export US-made democracy and you'll ruin the peace of this region, see Iraq and Afghanistan. They're in total chaos.
For Muslims, Islam is a code of life revealed by God and they love to follow it. This Sharia/Islamic law is for their good. They don't want to see crime rate going up.
How else can you just bring the crime-rate down? By injecting fear in people's heart who want to commit such crimes.
Beheading may look cruel but in the end the goal is that the criminal shouldn't feel the pain or suffer only the least amount of pain. It's way better than the lethal injection, electric chair or even hanging. It is less cruel than the rape or murder of an innocent.
So called Human Rights Organization will close its eyes when hundreds of children die in U.S. drone attacks, when black innocent people are killed by white cops in U.S., when hundreds are slayed by Egyptian Army in Rabaa, Cairo to clean the area from Morsi's supporters, when Israel massacres innocent Palestinians and builds illegal settlements.
Yes, there are issues in Saudi Arabia as women still can't drive cars but that'll change. For your information, Saudi Arabia has more high-standard universities for women than men. Women can now do jobs at offices & work from home or at shops. Evolution is the best way and we don't need any revolution.
Export US-made democracy and you'll ruin the peace of this region, see Iraq and Afghanistan. They're in total chaos.
For Muslims, Islam is a code of life revealed by God and they love to follow it. This Sharia/Islamic law is for their good. They don't want to see crime rate going up.
How else can you just bring the crime-rate down? By injecting fear in people's heart who want to commit such crimes.
Beheading may look cruel but in the end the goal is that the criminal shouldn't feel the pain or suffer only the least amount of pain. It's way better than the lethal injection, electric chair or even hanging. It is less cruel than the rape or murder of an innocent.
So called Human Rights Organization will close its eyes when hundreds of children die in U.S. drone attacks, when black innocent people are killed by white cops in U.S., when hundreds are slayed by Egyptian Army in Rabaa, Cairo to clean the area from Morsi's supporters, when Israel massacres innocent Palestinians and builds illegal settlements.
Yes, there are issues in Saudi Arabia as women still can't drive cars but that'll change. For your information, Saudi Arabia has more high-standard universities for women than men. Women can now do jobs at offices & work from home or at shops. Evolution is the best way and we don't need any revolution.
4
Stop and think for a minute. We can read an article on Saudi Arabia's Shariah law and then read the reactions of people from all over the world. How often do we have direct access to the thoughts of someone from Saudi Arabia? Whether one agrees with his opinions or not, the ability to receive his point of view is a wonderful thing. At its best, this represents an international forum for the exchange of ideas. I love the New York Times!!!!!
1
At least their method of capital punishment is humane, unlike any in the US. It's also fundamentally honest - not trying to hide behind a veil of clinical compassion. There is another theme that I see - the mechanism that allows for pardons by the family are essentially levers for victims rights, long championed for by the left in the US.
This piece is only striking because it doesn't take the default view that any society unlike ours is wrong.
This piece is only striking because it doesn't take the default view that any society unlike ours is wrong.
2
They also stone for adultery. Is stoning "humane"?
4
This article exemplifies the phrase, "Damning with faint praise."
The Saudis are extremely sensitive to criticisms. Sweden stood up for human rights in Saudi Arabia and is being punished by the Saudis by recalling of ambassadors and stopping business visas to Saudi Arabia. How do you tell the truth about the situation in Saudi Arabia without offending them? Well this NY Times article did just that.
I hope Raif Badawi wins the Noble Prize this year because its the brave people like Raif who stand up for human rights who will change the Middle East.
The Saudis are extremely sensitive to criticisms. Sweden stood up for human rights in Saudi Arabia and is being punished by the Saudis by recalling of ambassadors and stopping business visas to Saudi Arabia. How do you tell the truth about the situation in Saudi Arabia without offending them? Well this NY Times article did just that.
I hope Raif Badawi wins the Noble Prize this year because its the brave people like Raif who stand up for human rights who will change the Middle East.
7
Barbaric criminal "justice systems" which occasionally dole out "mercy" do not need apologists in major American newspapers. Why in the world do we think that we can be "allies" with rulers---yes, monarchs--in the 21st Century who persecute their peoples in this manner? It is time to call barbarism barbarism & to end our connections with this corrupt regime in Saudi Arabia. That we have sanctions against a Russian ruler & the Russian people when we remain "allies" to the Saudi Arabian regime makes our foreign policy an immense joke.
13
The justice system is based not on the crime, but on WHO did it, and what the 'jurists' belief system think of it. Sort of like the conservative and liberal SCOTUS and even other federal and state courts.
“If there were no retribution,” Prince Faisal said, “there would be total chaos.”
7th century thinking.
“When you see the sword hit someone, don’t you get disgusted?” Sheikh Shalash asked. “There are those who want to kill, but when they see that killing, they stop.”
obviously not.
...
there are at least two issues here
1) cruel and unusual punishment for real crimes like murder and robbery, that the government should punish by using due process, trial by jury and humane and proper punishment (ex., no public executions, dismemberment or lashings but imprisonment).
2) punishment for "immoral" crimes like blasphemy, fornication, sodomy, drug use,... which are unnecessary because the crimes are only crimes to the beholder.
civil laws can not be built (and enforced) overnight, but saudi arabia has to start somewhere and eventually. also, i would argue that europe, japan and other "civilized" nations are less chaotic than saudi arabia, and certainty many of the former arab spring nations. and remember, spring comes once a year....
finally, since no country has a perfect justice system, it would behoove all nations to look at the worse cases and ask themselves "what is wrong with this picture?", and then use the answer to reform one's own justice system.
7th century thinking.
“When you see the sword hit someone, don’t you get disgusted?” Sheikh Shalash asked. “There are those who want to kill, but when they see that killing, they stop.”
obviously not.
...
there are at least two issues here
1) cruel and unusual punishment for real crimes like murder and robbery, that the government should punish by using due process, trial by jury and humane and proper punishment (ex., no public executions, dismemberment or lashings but imprisonment).
2) punishment for "immoral" crimes like blasphemy, fornication, sodomy, drug use,... which are unnecessary because the crimes are only crimes to the beholder.
civil laws can not be built (and enforced) overnight, but saudi arabia has to start somewhere and eventually. also, i would argue that europe, japan and other "civilized" nations are less chaotic than saudi arabia, and certainty many of the former arab spring nations. and remember, spring comes once a year....
finally, since no country has a perfect justice system, it would behoove all nations to look at the worse cases and ask themselves "what is wrong with this picture?", and then use the answer to reform one's own justice system.
7
This article is but the tip of the iceberg. The arbitrary nature in how 'justice' is applied over there allows money to supercede law. Take it from someone with a loved one over there held illegally - you don't beat them at their game because they'll frame you and you wind up in a 'prison' run by a drug cartel. TRUE STORY.
9
You have to remember that only 80 years ago, the people of the Arabian peninsula were often-warring tribes of illiterate desert tribesmen struggling to survive in one of earth's harshest environments. Their customs, attitudes and mores come from that time and situation. Much of what they call Islam or we call Wahhabism really are tribal customs. We cannot expect them to instantly traverse the same path to modernity that took Westerners millennia.
28
I don't have any expectations of them at this point and neither should any of us. I simply want their customs and barbaric ideas of justice to remain as far away from my life in America as possible. If I had to choose a lesser evil I'd have taken Saddam over the Saudi Royal family any day.
5
this is an alibi. Their culture is as old as Romans or Greeks, but Europe evolved, but them, well they never WANTED to evolve. So, if you answer seems reasonable at first glance, if you think about it, it's just an excuse.
1
We cannot expect them to instantly traverse the same path to modernity that took Westerners millennia.
Oh yes we can! Things change and move quickly, not requiring millennia, or haven't you noticed?
Oh yes we can! Things change and move quickly, not requiring millennia, or haven't you noticed?
Saudi Arabia beheaded a 16 year old Filipina girl in a public square. Even ISIS would not go as far...
38
Oh I think Isis would: they are two of the same.
Have any of you watched a beheading of a human being? I did once out of curiosity on youtube. I was so nauseated by what I saw, I actually threw up. Honest. I will never, ever, do that again.
That there is a country in the 21st century that does it to its own citizens on a REGULAR BASIS, and they our 'friends'!. Come On!
This article should have been much more condemnatory than the glossy picture it paints.
That there is a country in the 21st century that does it to its own citizens on a REGULAR BASIS, and they our 'friends'!. Come On!
This article should have been much more condemnatory than the glossy picture it paints.
32
These laws are out of touch with the modern world. This society is also out of touch with modernity, although they think they are very modern and can keep their tribal ways. Nope, not in a close internet connected world. Beheadings do not fit, no matter how you cut the mustard.
21
Yes, but that means leaving behind the punishments that are proscribed in the holy books, including the Bible.
The Saudi legal system seems to be arbitrary, capricious, racist and disgusting.
25
Indeed.
No wonder the US and Saudi Arabia remain allies.
No wonder the US and Saudi Arabia remain allies.
3
A little cognitive dissonance here, with the numbers of comments excoriating the Saudis for their barbarism in employing the death penalty, but none for the U.S?
Pot, meet kettle.
Look at the countries around the world that still execute citizens; why do we want to be members of that club?
Pot, meet kettle.
Look at the countries around the world that still execute citizens; why do we want to be members of that club?
53
Just the other day here in the US a man was acquitted of murder charges. He spend 39 YEARS behind bars, many of those years on death row.
Why was he convicted of the murder? Because a 12 year old claimed to have seen the murder! No physical evidence or other witnesses.
The man was black. He was awarded just 2 million.
The US is hardly morally superior.
Why was he convicted of the murder? Because a 12 year old claimed to have seen the murder! No physical evidence or other witnesses.
The man was black. He was awarded just 2 million.
The US is hardly morally superior.
69
Shortcomings in our justice system do exist, they can also be remedied. There is almost nothing comparable between a justice system based on common law and precedents,and, a justice system based on honor and hereditary power.
3
“If there were no retribution,” Prince Faisal said, “there would be total chaos.”
In other words, there is no law, in Saudi Arabia, only fear and revenge. The law, as an objective code that is based on precedent and administered by courts is the heart of an ordered society, and we have reason to be proud of it. The many comments here deprecating American justice and insisting it is no better than that of the Saudis are absolutely wrong-headed and should claim no attention whatsoever.
In other words, there is no law, in Saudi Arabia, only fear and revenge. The law, as an objective code that is based on precedent and administered by courts is the heart of an ordered society, and we have reason to be proud of it. The many comments here deprecating American justice and insisting it is no better than that of the Saudis are absolutely wrong-headed and should claim no attention whatsoever.
39
Do you really think that America has a "justice" system?
"...as an objective code that is based on precedent."
The Arabs have precedent hundreds of years older than we. And how objective is anything based on precedent?
The Arabs have precedent hundreds of years older than we. And how objective is anything based on precedent?
Good to see that they're easing up on capital punishment in murder cases. If the Saudi justice system continues to make such enlightened advances it may happen that in a decade or two they'll even stop beheading people for drawing cartoons or reading The Bible...
41
Don't think the it's only Saudi justice that's little understood. Justice in the United States is also little understood! But at least here in the U.S.A., if you have the coin, one can usually buy the kind of justice one wants or needs. And, apparently, that may also be true in Saudi Arabia, only the coin is different.
15
Exactly. Public beheadings are gruesome and awful. Strapping someone to a gurney and injecting him or her with poison in a semi-public (invited guests) setting may be less gory, but the difference in barbarism is only one of degree.
States' Attorneys General arguing for the rightness of their states' capital punishment practises and the executioners experimenting with different combinations of legal 'cocktails' to preserve the practise is fundamentally no different than the Saudis' practise. It just looks better.
Saudi Arabia may be one of the most appalling countries on earth, but with regards to the death penalty, the US is no better -- just less grisly.
States' Attorneys General arguing for the rightness of their states' capital punishment practises and the executioners experimenting with different combinations of legal 'cocktails' to preserve the practise is fundamentally no different than the Saudis' practise. It just looks better.
Saudi Arabia may be one of the most appalling countries on earth, but with regards to the death penalty, the US is no better -- just less grisly.
I'm an American Jew and I'm looking forward to travelling in this exciting, exotic country after reading this article. I'm so glad the NY Times opened my eyes to the bright side of Saudi life.
57
good luck with that..lived in Saudi in the 70's to get an entry visa you had to prove you weren't Jewish...(baptist certificate, confirmation etc), maybe times have times.
Westerners need to stop criticizing other countries just because they don't follow the western culture or adhere to notions of western-defined human rights. Having grown up in Kuwait for 15 years, I can attest first-hand to the ethnic and religious tensions that lie just below the surface of a calm society. We have seen what Western intervention has done in Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, and Yemen. Arabs are not ready for the rule of democracy, yet western nations want to thrust democracy on them because they believe in governance by the people. How has that worked out? Guess what, there are undercurrents in the Arab world that no westerner will ever understand, and those undercurrents will rip society apart if there is no strongman in place to stop it (e.g., Iraq).
So the Saudis have a "harsh" justice system according to western human rights activists. I am willing to bet that every Saudi is more than happy the Emir has such a strong hold on the country and is preventing the kind of chaos we are seeing in other parts of the Arab world. If a harsh justice system is required for security, the Saudis would prefer that over living in a "free" world where some group or the other is trying to kill you.
So the Saudis have a "harsh" justice system according to western human rights activists. I am willing to bet that every Saudi is more than happy the Emir has such a strong hold on the country and is preventing the kind of chaos we are seeing in other parts of the Arab world. If a harsh justice system is required for security, the Saudis would prefer that over living in a "free" world where some group or the other is trying to kill you.
14
It's absurd to comment on how anachronistic, despotic, and sometimes barbaric the Saudi Arabian regime is without noting that Saudi Arabia is a client state of the US and NATO. This is a country whose borders were carved by the WWI allies out of the ruins of the defeated Ottoman Empire. The royal House of Saud was put in power so that close ties, and steady low-priced oil flows to the West, would be maintained. In return, the U.S. and its allies prop up this regime militarily, including arming it to the teeth against its own people.
The people of just about any country can over time prevail in pushing or forcing constructive evolution, or revolution, in their society. But when their government is propped up so thoroughly from without, the people may be unable to determine their own political destiny. Saudi Arabia has so much oil money that its royals can amass immense, mulit-billionaire wealth, but still distribute relatively high living standards broadly; this is not the case with most U.S. client states. But to achieve this, Saudi Arabia, like Kuwait, Qatar and the UAE, imports large numbers of "guest workers" who have essentially no real rights whatsoever.
The people of just about any country can over time prevail in pushing or forcing constructive evolution, or revolution, in their society. But when their government is propped up so thoroughly from without, the people may be unable to determine their own political destiny. Saudi Arabia has so much oil money that its royals can amass immense, mulit-billionaire wealth, but still distribute relatively high living standards broadly; this is not the case with most U.S. client states. But to achieve this, Saudi Arabia, like Kuwait, Qatar and the UAE, imports large numbers of "guest workers" who have essentially no real rights whatsoever.
48
You say the "US props up this military regime" but what the article makes clear is that this justice and political system bubbles up from centuries of tribal history (i.e., the people). The article notes that if Saudi tribes don't see what they perceive to be justice then you have revenge killings (which are now quite rare in the modern West). So their justice system has it's own logic and the barbarity of it is really a symptom of their own backward culture. Blaming American and the West for this culture is simply absurd. Recently we have seen what's under the hood when the Arab dictators are overthrown. The replacement is generally worse!! If you think the Saudi Royal family is bad just wait to see what happens when they are overthrown.
3
…and their own citizens and women do not work….so much for having any sort of work ethic which seems to be true for all of the petro economies. What do they produce, manufacture, farm, create? Textiles, clothing, cars, AC systems, etc, etc No innovation at all just oil in the backyard.
The one truly interesting part of the article was its admission that there is no mercy for Saudi liberals. You can rest assure that someone who "blasphemes" hasn't a hope in the world.
44
Does a beheaded convicted prisoner in Saudi Arabia writhe in pain while twitching uncontrollably and gasping for air for an hour before they finally die, like those we execute here in America do after lethal injection?
Regardless if they do or not, which I doubt happens with beheading (short of unconscious involuntary muscle contractions like that of a chicken without a head), either way the person is dead at the hands of their executioner.
This article seems to imply that the means of execution used in America in some way exonerates a society who still finds it within their right to pass judgement of death over an individual simply because the actual process of killing them has seen sanitized such that their is the appearance that death is not really taking place.
It almost the same as how we fight wars that kills scores: Mechanized and sanitized when viewed from afar, the actual reality of death is never seen and life ends only in the abstract so we all sleep better at night, regardless of how much blood was literally shed.
Regardless if they do or not, which I doubt happens with beheading (short of unconscious involuntary muscle contractions like that of a chicken without a head), either way the person is dead at the hands of their executioner.
This article seems to imply that the means of execution used in America in some way exonerates a society who still finds it within their right to pass judgement of death over an individual simply because the actual process of killing them has seen sanitized such that their is the appearance that death is not really taking place.
It almost the same as how we fight wars that kills scores: Mechanized and sanitized when viewed from afar, the actual reality of death is never seen and life ends only in the abstract so we all sleep better at night, regardless of how much blood was literally shed.
19
It's a stretch to compare the USA and SA…..I have never seen a woman stoned publicly and killed here because she was accused of adultery. Can you imagine how small our US population would become if every adulterer was stoned to death? As far as I know women here in the USA can work, own property, vote and drive cars that they also own, and go about their business freely without being chaperoned by a male family member……that is just one difference between the two countries.
This article can be summed up as describing a system of Saudi values (their system of justice) that worked well in the year 600, but still exists. In this case conservative means sticking with a system that the rest of the world through out long ago as outdated and barbaric. What is scary is that in parts of the rest of the world, namely the US, the same conservative thinking exists and is intent on turning back the clock to systems that were thrown out long ago. If we are not careful we will enact our own sharia law and be no better than the Saudis we are so quick to criticise.
17
I'm trying to put my finger on why I found this article intriguing. I think it's this: conservative Islamic cultures are the next best thing to having a time machine. It seems that unlike our own Western conservatives, who yearn for a recent past possibly within the memory of a living relative--certainly no more than a few generations removed--for tribal Islamic societies, time stopped over a thousand years ago for most important cultural purposes.
Perhaps my bemusement is a fraction of what some alien race might experience upon observing our "modern" Western life.
Perhaps my bemusement is a fraction of what some alien race might experience upon observing our "modern" Western life.
18
It is hardly necessary for four Muslim men to see the sex act to prove adultery; it is enough to have testimony of four Muslim men. The capriciousness of the scheme is a feature to allow the more-equals to escape punishment. They have an administrative, cultural and justice framework which allows to control, enslave and commit crimes against foreign workers with impunity. To imagine that US presidents bow to this exemplar and exporter of barbarism!
40
I only know of one President who bowed to a Saudi King.
1
The moral of this story is that in Arabia, justice can still be bought.
25
Justice is bought in every corner of the world. It's not always with dollars, but it is bought.
The Sauds are puppets of big oil that the west secured after defeating the Ottomans in WW I. They and their courts are without legitimacy and their days are numbered.
11
What an embarrassing puff piece. That justice is arbitrary as well as harsh somehow makes it better? And the sophomoric cultural relativism that is implied throughout is particularly unsophisticated. Saudi Arabia is not an outlier compared to the West. It is an outlier within both the Muslim world and the Arab world. These punishments -- and sometimes the lack of punishment -- is about the politics of the Saudi monarchy, not Islam. The Saudi regime is deeply unpopular which is why it punishes criticism often more harshly than physical crimes. This reporter simply transcribes Saudi talking points. We should never accept this sort of uncritical reporting, be it about injustice in the Saudi justice system or any other (including that of the U.S., which is quite horrific in its own right).
131
Claiming that you've sort of eased up on the public beheadings isn't really something to be proud of.
145
As a long-time expat in Saudi, kudos to the New York Times for attempting to bring some nuance to depictions of the Saudi system of justice, though the reader comments so far show that the effort didn't really connect. It's just too convenient for most Americans to scapegoat Saudi Arabia for faults we mostly, in point of fact, share: arbitrary criminal justice systems whose outcomes depend not so much on what you did, exactly, but who you are and whom you know.
However. it's not the lack of "mercy" in the Saudi system that is really at issue. In mercy, they almost certainly are superior to the draconian "mandatory sentencing" laws inexplicably favored by most American states (and responsible for the USA's completely unprecedented rates of incarceration). Rather, the issue in Saudi is the extreme discretion of judges (who can bend Sharia law to make it mean whatever they wish it to mean on any given day) and the role that "wasta" (the local word for "influence-peddling") plays in jurisprudence, as it does in every single aspect of Saudi life.
But, though I'm an opponent of capital punishment, Saudi's public beheadings bother me far less than the American distant, denatured, sanitized, "cruelty-free" (hah!) version of the death penalty. At least the Saudis are honest about what the death penalty is. It's deeply disturbing that many Times readers imagine that lethally-injecting criminals is somehow--in any way, shape, or form--morally superior to swiftly decapitating them.
However. it's not the lack of "mercy" in the Saudi system that is really at issue. In mercy, they almost certainly are superior to the draconian "mandatory sentencing" laws inexplicably favored by most American states (and responsible for the USA's completely unprecedented rates of incarceration). Rather, the issue in Saudi is the extreme discretion of judges (who can bend Sharia law to make it mean whatever they wish it to mean on any given day) and the role that "wasta" (the local word for "influence-peddling") plays in jurisprudence, as it does in every single aspect of Saudi life.
But, though I'm an opponent of capital punishment, Saudi's public beheadings bother me far less than the American distant, denatured, sanitized, "cruelty-free" (hah!) version of the death penalty. At least the Saudis are honest about what the death penalty is. It's deeply disturbing that many Times readers imagine that lethally-injecting criminals is somehow--in any way, shape, or form--morally superior to swiftly decapitating them.
122
I'm with you in applauding the Times for its nuanced article about the Saudi justice system, but your finding the opinion of a few Times readers "deeply disturbing" suggests you could use some perspective. The unprecedented rate of incarceration is Saudi Arabia's -- namely half its population within their homes. Does this disturb you? Deeply?
20
Well said Iaowai. The simplistic knee jerk anti Saudi reaction of many posters ignores the complexity and the reality of Saudi life . The writer is not defending the house of Saud or Sharia in this piece just showing Its never all black and white, just many shades of grey and the stereotypes are usually found lacking in truth. I am also a long term Saudi expat.
9
The human rights for women, 50% of the population, are terrible in Saudi Arabia. They are owned by men. Its the Only country in the world that prohibits women from driving. It wasn't until 2011 that women could vote, although how they could get to a voting booth might be a problem for some of them, since they can't go anywhere without a male supervising them. If a minority were treated that way in the US we would be outraged. I don't understand how you can defend the Saudi system of justice when it is so routinely unjust for 50% of the population.
7
As soon as the complaining started about the Clinton foundation taking money from those beheading Saudis, I knew that a rehabilitation would be in the works. I have to say, this one came fast.
42
The bigger context is the overall media blackout on internal affairs of Arab countries and a coverup of the lack of civil rights in the Arab world.
15
We may be better off if our foreign policy and selection of allies were to be determined by a body of citizens chosen at random.
7
So interesting that this, compared to ISIS, sounds reasonable if you're going to be a religious state, follow Sharia etc. We've seen all over the ME and N.Africa what happens when a strongman is not in charge, the tribal militias and ancient rivalries & chaos does take over. Reasonable minds aren't heard and are killed early.
The Islamic countries way of thinking is beyond my Western ability to imagine, The centuries old factions, traditions that haven't changed through generations, based on the state religion. (The young people in Iran have been terribly brave to try to buck their system at such great personal costs.) The Saudi rebels kill mass populations. Embarrassment to royal family internationally or not, they've got to keep anyone who rebels under fear or they know they'll have ISIS instead of the [corrupt] monarchy on top of the world's oil. A no-win situation.
The Islamic countries way of thinking is beyond my Western ability to imagine, The centuries old factions, traditions that haven't changed through generations, based on the state religion. (The young people in Iran have been terribly brave to try to buck their system at such great personal costs.) The Saudi rebels kill mass populations. Embarrassment to royal family internationally or not, they've got to keep anyone who rebels under fear or they know they'll have ISIS instead of the [corrupt] monarchy on top of the world's oil. A no-win situation.
7
Maybe say a little about the situation of "guest workers" in the kingdom, who can be executed out of hand because they are often poor and relatively defenseless in a society where blood ties are everything.
85
Educated and enlightened population doesn’t help any autocratic rulers. They need their fellow countrymen to be ignorant and even better if they remain that way. Why change anything if it’s not broken for the rulers.
Thanks for the article on Saudi Arabia. We should have more of these. The more we know about the system, the clearer will be the ideology they export. May be one day US will choose better friends.
BTW, many leaders in US also thrive on the ignorance of their base.
Thanks for the article on Saudi Arabia. We should have more of these. The more we know about the system, the clearer will be the ideology they export. May be one day US will choose better friends.
BTW, many leaders in US also thrive on the ignorance of their base.
24
What is described by this article is a system of justice that was established over a millennium ago to control, or as the article says, to scare people. In those times Arabs where nomadic, carried all they had on camels including goods for trade or sale and their women, who were a commodity. To steal from them was tempting, but serious. I am sure robbery and murder was a lucrative profession, if you got away with it. Being a conservative people, as the article says, only means that the culture and its systems have been preserved. However, the country has changed due to oil wealth. What we have is an ancient culture living in a modern world trying to have it both ways. To them it makes sense. to us it is barbaric.
23
The regime-friendly NYT will stretch reporting beyond credible limits to beat up on nations who resist US hegemony, like Venezuela, China, Iran et al. At the same time, as this example testifies, it softballs or ignores any nation like the House of Saud, Baharin or the Ukraine no matter how monstrous their domestic behavior as long as they accept its hegemony.
57
I fail to see what the point of this article is, other than an attempt to make the case that the Saudi government is less barbaric than ISIS. And on that score, the article utterly fails to convince.
92
Thanks to Mr. Hubbard for this culturally insightful article. This is the kind of writing that makes the nyt my favorite source for news.
7
Read this article and substitute "ISIS" fro "Saudi Arabia" and see how really similar these two entities truly are. In Saudi Arabia's case, the US, UN, and Europe look the other way, but not is the case of ISIS. I guess if ISIS was sitting on lots of oil and gas, they would be equally ignored.
Western government continue to forget that the US was attacked, on 9/11, by 15 Saudi citizens. A country which has been exporting a bastardized version of Islam fro centuries. A nation which still teaches their children, and exports materials, which condemn the west, Christianity and Judaism. A nation which cherry picks picks and chooses from The Qu'ran, as much as a Baptist preacher does from The Bible. So much so, that many Muslims believe that Allah is not the same supreme being as that of Jews and Christians.
Saudi Justice? It is stuck in the 7th Century. Much what Roman justice of 2000 years ago. Though, before people start pausing the merits of western justice; the US still executes people, as does much of Asia. In Indonesia and Malaysia a drug crimes is a death sentence (a higher penalty than fro murder). The Us is on Amnesty International's list regarding the death penalty and prison conditions. Those who support the death penalty need not preach about Saudi Arabian justice; we, in some ways are no better.
Personally I do not support the ugly penalties exacted by Saudi Arabia or other nations, including this one, using retribution justice.
Western government continue to forget that the US was attacked, on 9/11, by 15 Saudi citizens. A country which has been exporting a bastardized version of Islam fro centuries. A nation which still teaches their children, and exports materials, which condemn the west, Christianity and Judaism. A nation which cherry picks picks and chooses from The Qu'ran, as much as a Baptist preacher does from The Bible. So much so, that many Muslims believe that Allah is not the same supreme being as that of Jews and Christians.
Saudi Justice? It is stuck in the 7th Century. Much what Roman justice of 2000 years ago. Though, before people start pausing the merits of western justice; the US still executes people, as does much of Asia. In Indonesia and Malaysia a drug crimes is a death sentence (a higher penalty than fro murder). The Us is on Amnesty International's list regarding the death penalty and prison conditions. Those who support the death penalty need not preach about Saudi Arabian justice; we, in some ways are no better.
Personally I do not support the ugly penalties exacted by Saudi Arabia or other nations, including this one, using retribution justice.
67
I work in Saudi Arabia and have for the last 2 years. Sure by American standards the morals and legal standards of the country are more akin to 16th century Europe than 'modern' day society, however, one has to remind oneself of an important point. It's THEIR country! When I'm home, I respect American laws and traditions. When I'm working over there, I respect their laws and traditions. It's not always fun (no theaters, no alcohol, no dating) but as the saying goes, "When in Rome...." or in this case Saudi.
15
"It's THEIR country!"
A point we Americans would do well to pay heed to. People all over, even within the USA itself, have different values.
A point we Americans would do well to pay heed to. People all over, even within the USA itself, have different values.
6
Easy for you to say, you're a man. It's not "their" country; it's the Saudi men's country. Would you be so keen to say "When in Rome..." if it were pre-emancipation United States?
24
And if you get wrongly accused of some capital offense which would be considered a minor or non-infraction elsewhere, and convicted, no doubt you will respectfully attend your own execution.
12
But they still behead people and stone them and kill them.
59
They are our friends. In particular the Saudi Royal family and The Bush Royal Family, united forever by The Carlyle Group which makes money from oil, war, spying and a few other things..lots and lots of money. Google them.
34
And then there was the case where the sentence was to paralyze the guilty party, and the only reason why it didn't happen was because they couldn't find anyone willing to do it.
Curious how that wasn't mentioned in this article.
Curious how that wasn't mentioned in this article.
26
I know Timeswrite is based on always bending over backwards to show both sides of the story--eg Hitler was a vicious, contemptible genocidal murderer, yet he did build a wonderful highway system despite having experienced a terrible childhood. Yet even based on that standard this justification of Saudi barbarism is quite a stretch.
136
The story should have informed you, had you read it for comprehension, that their system is NOT barbaric. Barbaric means unsophisticated, which their system is not.
Fascinating article...there are more ways to distribute justice than one...and despite the offense garnered by most commenters so far...I imagine our justice system would find efficiencies in adopting some of the standards prescribed.
2
The unseen side of Saudi "justice" is that it is capricious.
Which only makes its harshness more effective - and more ominous.
The author sees this capriciousness as a positive. Very naive on his part.
Which only makes its harshness more effective - and more ominous.
The author sees this capriciousness as a positive. Very naive on his part.
50
The "Unseen Side" of Saudi Justice is the mortal danger you place yourself into if you criticize it or associate it publicly with a word similar to "Medieval". Most are not aware that to criticize Saudi Justice (and I am definitely not doing that) is to criticize Islam (I'm not doing that either) the penalty for which can be death or extreme financial loss!
One need look no farther than the plight of the current Swedish Foreign Minister after her comments about "Saudi Justice"!
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/16/sweden-saudi-idUSL6N0WH0DW2015...
One need look no farther than the plight of the current Swedish Foreign Minister after her comments about "Saudi Justice"!
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/16/sweden-saudi-idUSL6N0WH0DW2015...
23
There's something incongruous about the words "Saudi Justice" linked together in a sentence.
This is one of the most religiously and sexually repressed countries on the planet, where people are stoned, whipped or beheaded on almost a daily basis, should they dare to criticize the iron-grip of the Saud family -- As is the case of a blogger who was recently sentenced to a thousand lashes even though medical experts ruled it would most certainly kill him....Would that not be considered Murder?
This is one of the most religiously and sexually repressed countries on the planet, where people are stoned, whipped or beheaded on almost a daily basis, should they dare to criticize the iron-grip of the Saud family -- As is the case of a blogger who was recently sentenced to a thousand lashes even though medical experts ruled it would most certainly kill him....Would that not be considered Murder?
77
“The punishments that are in the Quran — after Allah, the gracious and almighty — are what preserve security in this country,”
So which parts of the Quran are meant to be read literally, which are symbolic, which should be ignored? Why chose to continue these medieval punishments because that's how Muhammad did but then ignore some of the other vile things in the Quran and say that there's some deeper meaning behind it and that Islam is a religion of peace? Sorry can't respect a fundamentally barbaric system of laws no matter what the religion, just to keep a bunch of would-be holy men happy. Why do we tolerate this? Maybe because we are just as fundamentalist in our worship of the almighty dollar and the sanctity of the Marketplace.
So which parts of the Quran are meant to be read literally, which are symbolic, which should be ignored? Why chose to continue these medieval punishments because that's how Muhammad did but then ignore some of the other vile things in the Quran and say that there's some deeper meaning behind it and that Islam is a religion of peace? Sorry can't respect a fundamentally barbaric system of laws no matter what the religion, just to keep a bunch of would-be holy men happy. Why do we tolerate this? Maybe because we are just as fundamentalist in our worship of the almighty dollar and the sanctity of the Marketplace.
63
You should also ask the same questions of the old and new testaments of the Bible and the Torah, as you do on interpreting the Quran. "An eye for an eye", Abraham's killing his own son based on a dream but saved by a burning bush, etc. Do we "turn the other cheek" or poke someone's eye out?
2
Most of "scripture" is accounts of all the bad things that happen when people act upon what they are told God thinks about human concerns.
1
The death penalty is atrocious, and any country that uses it should be condemned and hit by sanctions by the international community. That being said, beheading is at least quick and painless, unlike the unproven cocktail of drugs that is used in the US --its victims often suffering terribly for more than half an hour.
21
Indeed. Utah is bringing back the firing squad to make quicker, surer work of killing. Better yet would be the guillotine.
9
I dont know if youre following the death penalty issues going on between Australia (and other countries) and Indonesia right now but it should make instructive reading for US citizens: Indonesia's president lifted their moratorim on executions of low level drug smugglers - obviously to bolster his political position - and has met stiff opposition. Now the whole process is stalled and in disarray. It doesn't help that Indonesia regularly finds its (abused) maids being decapitated in Saudi Arabia (it appears that the Sheiks' record on pardons for maids is not as good as for its citizens) and regularly campaigns against its citizens' executions in foreign countries.
Contrary to another posters' comment on here the death penalty is barbaric and is, in most cases, barbarically applied. The citizens of the USA - who are notoriously unaware of how they are perceived out here in the real world - should take note that their country is not perceived as a leader in human rights or any other high ideals. A small step on the path to living up to the two-faced rhetoric that comes out of the USA would be to abolish the death penalty - as Indonesia appears likely to do later this year as a result of the present controversy.
Contrary to another posters' comment on here the death penalty is barbaric and is, in most cases, barbarically applied. The citizens of the USA - who are notoriously unaware of how they are perceived out here in the real world - should take note that their country is not perceived as a leader in human rights or any other high ideals. A small step on the path to living up to the two-faced rhetoric that comes out of the USA would be to abolish the death penalty - as Indonesia appears likely to do later this year as a result of the present controversy.
17
This article can be summed up as describing a system of Saudi values (their system of justice) that worked well in the year 600 and still exists. In this case conservative means sticking with a system that the rest of the world through out long ago as outdated and barbaric. What is scary is that in parts of the rest of the world, the US, the same conservative thinking exists and is intent on turning back the clock to systems that were thrown out long ago. If we are not careful we will be no better than the Saudis we are so quick to criticise.
8
Written with sensitivity and compassion for the fifteenth century jurisprudence of this great friend of the USA, I am none the less nauseated by the mere thought of Saudi Arabia and it's legion of pampered princes. That fifteen of the hijackers came from this oasis of misogyny, pedophilia, and financial support of various terrorists groups dedicated to harming the United States, troubled not at all the Bush regime, nor apparently that of his successor. Report on the "Kingdom" all you like, but spare me weepy rationalizations mitigating their barbarism.
208
Just speechless that the NYT would basically print an article offering justificatin for the mindlessly brutal Saudi/Sharia "justice" system.
164
It is the job of the NYT to inform us of the best justification available for the Saudi system and the gaps between the system in theory and the system in practice, which our legal system also has. We are then free to accept or reject these justifications. But we have to know something about them to be able to understand the many Saudis who have studied and lived in America but then returned to their native country. We can see why this return will be a complex process for many of them, in which they will face or dodge manyfundamental questions.
7
I don't read this article as a justification of the Saudi legal system, but rather
an informative explanation. What is to be gained in not knowing or understanding the basis of someone else's point of view? If it involves a political relationship with another culture and or sovereign state mutual understanding is even more important. Without it little change can be effected.
Also prudent to remember that injustice past and present exist everywhere.
an informative explanation. What is to be gained in not knowing or understanding the basis of someone else's point of view? If it involves a political relationship with another culture and or sovereign state mutual understanding is even more important. Without it little change can be effected.
Also prudent to remember that injustice past and present exist everywhere.
10
Saudi law reminds me of the Monty Python sketch about the violent gangster duet, the Piranha Brothers. Victims who had their heads nailed to coffee table's by the bros' sang the praises for being, "cruel, but fair." "They even bought their mother flowers."
Piranha Arabia; we'd condemn them but we love their money too much.
Piranha Arabia; we'd condemn them but we love their money too much.
29
We love their petroleum too much.
Beheading is atrocious. ISIS learned this from Saudi Arabia along with Salfi philosophy and Wahhabi Sunni extremism. It is not appropriate to write apologist essays for a backward, primitive, ignorant culture even if they have oil. Practicing medieval "justice" and mercy as women are oppressed and foreign workers are enslaved and "nonbelievers"are just not human must be the focus as we develop a rational strategy to end our dependence on oil and extricate ourselves from this tortured region of irrational rivalries. It should be our national defense priority to get out of the oil protection and use business and into renewable energy that will save the planet.
108
Of course, death by lethal injection, or being shredded by a 30mm cannon on an A10 Warthog by invading foreigners is quite civil. Other customs are strange, but ours are quite understandable. We ain't no backwards primitive culture, not us...
23
Indeed, you have identified the locations of our backward, primitive superstition driven states, wherein executions are conducted with pride and bravado and self righteous glee. You also identify the very harmful behaviors we are guilty of, in particular in Iraq. Our "war on terror" relies in our superior abilities to terrorize opponents and their civilian populations. Advocating change in behavior in our own land, ending addiction to oil, leaving the middle east, are not claims of superiority but recognition of the causes for our backward, primitive behavior: addiction to oil and reliance and acceptance of the medieval countries that have oil.
2
A terrifying article.
54
What a strange world this is when a woman driving a car is committing some great offense, and yet there can be extenuating circumstances for murder.
205
Well,in this particular case there were 930.000 extenuating circumstances,thats quite a few extenuating circumstances.
Obviously, per the recent conference held in Medina, Sharia law is the answer to all problems. And Saudi justice is the gold standard to which all civilized nations should aspire. Not at all like that disgusting Isis.
39
Ignoring for the moment the incredibly harsh sentence recently given to a liberal blogger, and focusing just on executions, then from the figures given in the article, and despite the "checks in the Saudi system" mentioned in the article, the per-capita rate of execution is almost 30 times higher in Saudi Arabia than in the US. This statistic speaks for itself.
133
Judging justice systems requires more than looking at execution statistics. That the Saudis executed 79 individuals reveals their overuse of the punishment. On the other hand, that the per capita rate of imprisonment is 4 times higher in the U.S. suggests that we overuse that form of punishment.
41
It could mean that the US, like most civilised nations, is relatively "soft" on murder.
On the other hand, the civilised nations send murderers to prison for life and I don't really know what is harsher: losing ones head and life in a split second or living behind bars for, say, 45 or more years.
On the other hand, the civilised nations send murderers to prison for life and I don't really know what is harsher: losing ones head and life in a split second or living behind bars for, say, 45 or more years.
1
I dont care how many sides there are. Beheading a woman in public for "witchcraft" alleged "adultery", defending yourself when your husband is beating you or criticizing the Koran is barbaric, inhumane and uncivilized. This country lives in the middle-ages and is the most misogynistic place on the planet. Yet they are one of our "closest allies". A shame and disgrace to US foreign policy.
265
I'm sure you know why.
We love their money more than we care about their beheading women, gays, and non-believers.
We love their money more than we care about their beheading women, gays, and non-believers.
67
Is it more misogynistic than, say, Pakistan or other Islamic republics? The Obama administration would go way out of its way to avoid saying so, but what is described here is endemic to Islamic republics. Out with Mubarak and Netanyahu, but in with Saud and Hassan Rouhani? What about Assad?
"Friendships" between states are political i.e. for mutual benefit and have little to do with internal affairs of the states in question. It would be a much messier world if political relationships were as a matter of course based on how said entities ran their domestic affairs.
So what it boils down to is:
In Saudi Arabia a woman driving a car is committing a more serious offense than a man killing someone.
These are our friends?
In Saudi Arabia a woman driving a car is committing a more serious offense than a man killing someone.
These are our friends?
232
It's funny that American citizens are outraged over this, but not outraged about the way minorities are incarcerated in OUR country. And placed on death row. Many of these people have been killed by the police despite not having been convicted of a crime.
5
We are not "friends" at all, we just want their oil. Why pretend that we are friends or allies when we clearly have nothing else in common but their oil.